We have had many lists that deal with religious topics, and many of our readers have made some amazing intelligent comments. But we have not actually gotten down to the root of things – which is, does God truly exist, and if He does, is there proof for His existence? Remember, keep the comments friendly and use good arguments for your view.
Does God Exist and Can We Prove It Either Way?
My answer is that St Thomas Aquinas gave some very convincing arguments in support of the idea that reason can prove faith. I believe that a greater study of his works, with some of the more modern writers will help each person to draw the appropriate conclusions- but we should give equal time to both sides.
Yes and No.
Ok, that was cheap.
Whatever there is a god or not, I don't think God(s) will discriminate. I.E. God of Hebrews, Greeks, a limited sector of the world that was fortunate enough to learn of a God's name/teaching.
You see, I don't believe in a God that would condemn another half of the world, when that half never even heard of the guy.
So, that's why I don't believe in Christianity, Hindu, Islam, Tao….
And dear god, there will be blood in this thread.
But anyway, whether there is a God or not, it should not affect how you threat your fellow human beings.
"…when that half (of the world) never even heard of the guy…."
Most people have heard of Him by 20. Consider your sources.
your retarded. There are millions of people that haven’t and your biased. You said most, so the ones that havnt heard of him are damned than? You missed the entire point and made yourself sound retarded. Your obviously a christian, you should check your
*you’re
You should check your grammar.
We can argue for years whether God exists or not but, the Devil certainly does exist. Read the global news the Earth is a living hell.
Oh dear lord, this is going to get heated.
And yes.
This will be an interesting one.
And no, I lost my faith long ago.
3rd
Perhaps for some…
but not for me, I am not really a religious person.
No, can’t say I believe and I thinks it’s a stupid question, but, of course blind faith is proof enough when people are scared of change.
I don’t believe that God exists.
And Thomas Aquinas’ proofs aren’t very good and are outdated. Richard Dawkins pretty much destroyed them in The God Delusion.
St. Thomas Aquinas' debate outdated!? try to rebut his statements with pure thought and a completely established scientific inquiry and try to see who's outdated. BTW, Yes, God exists!
TREAT, I meant TREAT
Yes.
I found faith more than ayear ago.
No, he is just made up in general consciousness to exist. It is an absurd question, really.
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. – Thomas Jefferson
Atheists often suggest that theirs is the default position, that there is a presumption of atheism. This places the burden of proof on the theist; if the theist is unable to make a persuasive case for the existence of God, then the atheist is justified in his atheism. The case for the presumption of atheism may be made in two ways, one resulting in a presumption of weak atheism, and the other in a presumption of strong atheism.
Arguments for Atheism for much, much more on the various arguments. this is only ONE quote.
Welcome to Iron Chariots, the counter-apologetics wiki. excellent resource for the counter-apologetics including extensive material regarding the existence or non-existence of God
In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to his or her life; nor perhaps to human affairs. Wikipedia: Apatheism my current public stance
The Black Pages and yes, all this and more comes from an archive of such material i’ve been collecting for a while.
so the short answer is ..no God does not exist. and there have been far better arguments posed in the sources previously cited and more. personally, i don’t need all that but i understand some people do, hence the inclusion.
and yeah J, you did it this time.
I dont think that the ‘popular’ perception of god through numerous faiths exists i.e. a person or idol
Wow, you’ve really opened up the floodgates for this topic J…
I don’t believe in ‘god’ as such, in the sense of god being a big old white guy with a long grey beard, but I do believe in some sort of a higher power. Its hard to explain but this thing I believe in does not have any human characteistics. It is more like a fundamental force in physics – and just holds the world together.
I hope I’m making sense.
There is gonna be some heated debate with this list
you’re right, but the general public need a face and a name, some awesome stories to attach to this force
i say if you believe he does, then he does. but anyone who says they know for certain is just a liar….no one, anywhere, ever could ever say with certainty one way or another. its all about your beliefs
to mrbizmark
How do you know his name then, smart arse?
I don’t believe there is “a god”, I do believe that there is some supreme being out there, because the universe is too perfect to have been created by a fortunate series of events (one of my friends dad’s thinks that he has a book with math equations that explains everything.) However, if there is a “God” so to speak, I do not believe he cares about us in any way whatsoever. He simply started the universe, then walked away. Our constant praying to “a god” is a waste of time.
Nice to see Cyn come out of hiding:) and no God does not exist. If he does may strike me de……………..
I will say I am noncommitted. Or maybe I should be committed. I am not whole heartedly sure there is a God, but not ruling out the possibility of a higher power. Okay yes the wimpy way out, but I do not have strong convictions either way. I do feel people who have a strong feeling either way are great. And I wonder where they get their unbendable belief. And even thougn I am on the fence I am not easily swayed either way.
Juggz…there’s a difference between hiding and lurking.
cuz i’m always here.
According to quantum mechanics, if you believe in the existence of God in some shape, force or form, then he/she/it exists, and in just the way you perceive. If you don’t, then this conversation is over and you save 10%. You save even more compared to Scientologists.
Perception equals reality and everyone wins.
(Except of course for those who dare oppose the Flying Spaghetti Monster).
Now that wasn’t so hard now, was it?
What I mean is that ‘God’ (or any higher power) is made up by humankind, we think that he exists, but we have no proof that he does or doesn’t, making it an absurd question.
I dont like to believe that theres an unknown third party interfering in my life, its unhealthy.
I believe that God doesn’t exist, and that man created Him in his own image to alleviate the horrifying feeling of insignificance and transience associated with his mortal life in this painfully colossus universe.
The main argument put forward in defence of God’s existence (aside from the completely absurd ontological argument) is the idea that the universe seems to be too perfect to have come about by chance, and thus there must be a designer behind it. But the apparent perfection of the universe can just as easily be explained by the theory of parallel universes (i.e. there are infinite universes running alongside eachother, with different events being played out in each, so that between them all, everything that can possibly happen does happen. In such a case there would inevitably be a universe in which the conditions are just right to engender and sustain the lives we are living right now.) One might posit that there must be a creator behind the ‘multiverse’ of universes, but if God himself doesn’t need to have a cause, why must the multiverse?
Nonetheless, even if I’m wrong and the cause of the perfection of the universe really is God, then I still don’t believe in Him, because any God that allows so much suffering to occur to his creations is not worth believing in, and I’ve done well enough so far without him anyhow. Perhaps a quote by Epicurus will clarify my position:
“Is God willing to end suffering but unable?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but unwilling?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence comes suffering?
Is he neither willing nor able?
Then why call him God?”
For those who insist that the suffering is a test for us, please answer me these:
Why kill a newborn baby in order to test those around it? I’m not as omniscient as God is purported to be and I can think of many ways to test people without causng such suffering.
And if God can do anything, then why can’t he conceive of a universe in which suffering is not required in order to test his subjects?
And finally, if God is omniscient, why does he even need to test anything?
God doesnt test anyone, the devil does.
God is the source of everything good and love.
God can't be seen, you just have to get a self experience with him
your so jaded. So did the devil create aids and malaria or the black plauge.
Have you read your Bible?
w00t for the Antichrist, you win this topic!
and what has he won Bob? why, a one way trip to Hell! *crowd cheers*
Well Im pretty open to the idea of a higher being.
However the idea of the lord or ‘God’ known by it’s many has its flaws and there are many negative thoughts on the topic, if anything more than postive thoughts
There are millions of possibilities of our existence and meaning of life and to say it is the workings of ‘God’ is a little too narrow-minded in my opinion.
I think this topic should be “Is there a higher being (or supernatural force) in the Universe?”
I think the idea of the Judeo-Christian ‘God’ is too narrow of a topic for conversation.
mrbizmark: I never said “judeo Christian” – God is a supernatural force – why must I use politically correct terms to describe Him? You knew what I meant.
Even if there was a God, would he be relevant? He would not be.
Omnipotence and omniscience (both of which are required in order to claim the title “Superior”) rule each other out (if you know everything and anything, you know in advance what what you are going to do, and you can’t change your mind), so a God cannot possibly have both qualities, and thus worshiping such a being seems a bit extravagant.
Furthermore, since there’s so much misery in the world today, as in the past, one would think he’d do something about that. However, it seems He’s more occupied with leaving an imprint of the face of Jebus in loafs of bread and uprooted trees in Kentucky. And given his omnipotence, wouldn’t it be easier to just knock over the tree to reveal such marvel than the much more tedious task of lining up tornadoes? In addition, it seems curious to me that this imprint is instantly recognized by people who have never seen Jebus before. Anyways, in considering His general disinterest in relieving misery, is it because:
-He wants to but he can’t (so He’s not omnipotent)
-He doesn’t want to (so He’s cruel)
-He’s simply not aware of it (so He’s not omniscient)
All in all, still not worthy of dedicating time to.
Antichrist,
you posted your argument as I was typing mine. It’s a good one.
hhmm..wonder where all the religionists are? so far looks like a buncha heathens.
Creosote: Thanks – I love playing Devil’s Advocate lol
*mini applause to Antichrist* Well said.
Does God exist? I’ll go with no. As far as a higher power of some sort, I’ll still say no. Although, like Richard Dawkins correctly noted, even a good scientist always leaves open the possibility for the alternative.
“All thinking men are atheists.”
-Ernest Hemingway
"All thinking men are atheists."
-Ernest Hemingway
Thats bullshiet and its a fact that that is bull********** =)
That”s real christian of you
cyn: that was funny. i could hear the crowd-in-a-can cheer.
i’ll be different and get the pot stirred. yes, God exists. he proved it by the creation of the world. he proves it daily in the sustaining of the world. he proved it by appearing to his people many times over hundreds of years. he proved it on a much larger stage by taking the form of a human and walking the earth for approximately 33 years.
to answer the antichrist…(wow, that’s a scary thought) you leave out an option in your argument about evil…God is both able to end evil and powerful enough to do so but has reasons for not doing what you want him to that we do not understand. this isn’t so hard to see in your own life is it? did you want to get a flu shot when you were 2 years old? your parents were both able to end your “suffering” yet they choose to let you go through it for reasons that you could not understand.
there…that ought to get some people heated.
p.s. jayfray…you didn’t answer the question you pose.
jamie: does God exist?
jamie: st. thomas thought so.
come on in, the water’s fine
I don’t believe god exists and have been challenged to prove he doesn’t but I don’t need to prove he does not exist someone needs to prove that he does and no one has done so. The thing is to prove that god exists would be the most disastrous thing that could happen to all religions. Proof of god’s existance would mean that mankind would then have to question which god and what god’s true nature is and all religion would collapse.
rearden: I believe that Aquinas and Augustine were thinking men – they were neither atheists
DiscHuker: hehe
Smarty pants!
If you need proof if there is a God or not…find a baby or small child, look into their eyes and when they smile at you, then you’ll know. Oh, and God has a very good sense of humor, the platypus attests to that.
In addition, if God created everything, he also created knowledge, which means there was a point at which there was no knowledge available, even to God. Besides consider the immense difficulties of requiring knowledge out of scratch.
There’s also the issue that a God would have to know everything about what does NOT exist. But one cannot have knowledge of thing that do not exist.
Yes…no explanation needed
Other, wiser men than me have come up with proofs for the existence of God. If you ask me, I’ll tell you that God exists, no doubt. However, the only definitive way to prove his existence is to conduct a very scientific experiment.
Step 1: Wait for death.
Step 2: Observe data.
Step 3: Draw conclusion.
I hope I’m right about God, but if I’m wrong, and there is no God, dead me won’t care too much. I’d hate to assume there is not God and be wrong, though.
DiscHuker:
“God is both able to end evil and powerful enough to do so but has reasons for not doing what you want him to that we do not understand.”
It’s unfortunate that you think this way. If God existed and had just read what you’d written, he’d know that he could do absolutely anything to you and then justify it by saying that he did it for reasons you don’t understand.
And as for for the flu jab *****ogy, if my parents were as powerful as God is supposed to be, they wouldn’t have created the flu virus in the first place.
I don’t know if I’m a religionist, but I do believe there’s a God. Proving it is beside the point: it’s not faith if it requires proof. Creosote’s points are all legitimate, but the presumption that there’s only three answers to the question of suffering is inaccurate.
I don’t much care whether someone believes or not. More power to whoever wants to believe whatever they want to believe. That doesn’t make the question either stupid or foolish.
Nor does maintaining one belief make someone scared of change. Religion, like *****uality, is not the sum total or defining trait of a person. Better to look at the whole person before making judgments.
Yes, God exists, and I agree with what DiscHuker said.
i used to be very religious and i just got burnt out on church.
i really think god and all of his rules were meant to just scare people into following rules…
only if some people would just think about being moral…
“people don’t go to church because the believe in god, they believe in god because the go to church” -robbins, anthropologist
jfrater: Sorry. I just normally associate ‘God’ with the God of the Jewish and Christian texts.
It might be good for this discussion to point out that “proof” and “evidence” are two different things.
Book 1, Chapter 1, Stanza 1, “And God said “Let There Be Laws Of Nature” and there Were.” Now close the book you’re done. Now I have to go digging for my Essay on “God”. Thanks Jamie.
If god is omnipotent, could he create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?
sorry if this is poorly written, ive never been much of a writer
i think god and religion were invented to scare people into doing what someone else percieves as the right thing to do, not neccessarily because it is right, but because they fear the consequences of their actions. the same way laws are created by man to keep order, so was god, but with larger consequences for what is wrong. religions also serve as a way to explain why things are and how they came to be, as most faiths were created before any scientific explanation was available for natural phenomena.
at the same time i think that maybe there is a higher power, just not one that is all powerful.
i’m still not 100% sure on all of what i think yet, but i’m only a kid, so who says i have to have everything figured out.
visitorq: doesn’t that question completely undo the idea of omnipotence?
visitor q: A fine point. I wish he could. Maybe then we could all get together and throw it on top of him
mattchu: doesn’t that question completely undo the idea of omnipotence?
so then, if omnipotence doesn’t exist, god cannot exist.
Which one?
Wow, 51 comments in and so far, there are no death threats or ALL CAPS!
Typical story here: I grew up believing in (the Christian) god for 16 years. Then I started hating my parents for raising me on a religion that made me hate myself. So, I do not believe any kind of god(s) exists. I’ve accepted the fact that some day I’m going to die, so I don’t need to make up any stories to make death “sweeter”.
Here is a list of gods: http://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them
The reason why (for example) atheists don’t believe in the Christian god (or any other), is the same exact reason why (most) theists don’t believe in every single of of these gods.
So unless you believe in EVERY SINGLE GOD that people have worshiped, you are, in a way, an atheist to someone else’s god.
Fili: The Vice Of God Is Booming. NOT YELLING!
I believe in God, completely. However, i don’t believe in religion. Religion is something that ‘man’ made to make themselves powerful in the eyes of it’s people. The Catholics understood this back in the old days, they made it like they spoke to God on a regular basis and that the people were to do whatever the preacher says because God told him so. Whatever.
Jesus, I believe is the Son of God, but He never meant for Christianity to come out of his time here on Earth. He was actually against organized religion, really. Just wanted a relationship from us. But, that in my opinion is what the writers of the Bible said. From this statement, I don’t believe in the Bible. To me, it’s a great source of inspiration or stories, but not meant to be taken literally. I mean, “Jonah and the whale”? Based on some truth, sure, but you can’t have blind faith on that.
The Devil…just a boogeyman to keep us in check. Angels in Heaven…warriors for God. Storytelling. Simple.
So, my answer is, I believe in God as the creator of the universe and that He just wants us to live out life and He will do whatever he can to help us but “free will” states that he can’t get involve directly. But as in the “Bible” god, I don’t believe. I don’t believe in the ‘apocalypse” idea, but only that it will be brought on BY US AND NOT GOD HIMSELF. We’ll destroy ourselves.
Cheers, mates. Good subject.
Of course God exists … I spoke with Him this morning .
bwmyers, you spoke TO him this morning. There’s a bit of a difference there…
God is irrelavant.
if it (i am saying IT on purpose since i am not sure a being such as god would have a gender) does exist and he follows a certain religion, whichever one that is, then it is damning a lot of people to hell, or whatever the punishment is, without being fair about it. at one point in time every person on earth followed religions and traditions which did not exist today, or are seen as silly and archaic. i guess religion changes and there is no proof that any single religion could be right just as there is no proof that any single god could exist. religion to me always seemed a whole lot less likely than God ever did.
if it does exist and follows no religion then i am just as safe in not believing in its existance because without religion there is no hell and no need to fear or worship God, since i doubt it cares about prayer or any of that nonsense.
If he does not exist then the universe would a far more beautiful place because of the fact that it was not just conjured up, but built and meticulously created into its current form.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -Carl Sagan