There was jubilation last week as Radovan Karadic (the most wanted man in Europe) was caught after 13 years on the run. The worst crimes on his indictment are the 43-month siege of Sarajavo in which 10,000 civilians were killed and the massacre of 7000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenicain in July 1995. There are thousand of fugitives around the globe including terrorists, killers, drug smugglers, and war criminals. This is a list of 10 such fugitives – 10 of the world’s most evil and dangerous men on the run. Many more could have made this list, so this is just a brief account of some of the well-known and not so well-known criminals from around the globe.
He escaped from a prison transport van in June 2003, he was being taken from Brixton prison to face charges over a £1.25 million security van heist in which the driver of the van was shot in the knee after he was ordered to open the door while his colleague was pistol-whipped. His partner in crime was convicted in February of using a gun to escape from the van. Detectives have vowed that Cunningham will have his day in court.
Linked to 18 murders he has evaded the FBI for 9 years. Known as Whitey, the 78-year-old Boston crook is on the U.S. 10 most wanted list for drug dealing, money laundering, extortion, murder and other organised crimes. He is known to use disguises to visit libraries and historic sites. The FBI is offering $1 million for information leading to his arrest.
The top target of American drug enforcement administration, also known as Shorty, the 54 year old heads the Sinaloa Cartel International drug traffickers, he reputed pays up to $2 million to lieutenants to keep him safe and is said to change mobile phones after each conversation. Loera follows the Sinaloan credo of not killing innocent people and is regarded as a Robin Hood type character.
In 1990 following the collapse of his Polly Peck business empire he fled from the UK to northern Cyprus. He was prosecuted on various counts of theft and fraud but failed to appear for trial in 1993 having absconded to the unrecognised Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus – which has no extradition treaty with the UK. He is wanted on theft charges of 34 million. In 2003 he vowed to return to clear his name but refused until the British Government promised not to remand him in jail until his trial.
The former KGB spy aged 42 is wanted in the UK for the murder of soldier and spy Alexander Litvinenko, who died in 2006 after being poisoned with radioactive polonium-210 in London. The authorities say they have enough to charge Lugovoi but the Russians refuse to hand him over. He protests his innocence from Moscow and claims MI6 spies, the Russian Mafia or Kremlin opponent Boris Berezovsky carried out the killing.
So far 83 people wanted for genocide by the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (UN-ICTR) have been apprehended. Augustin Bizimana is the most senior of the 13 remaining still at large. The 54 year old former defense minister faces charges over the massacre of 800 000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus in 1994. Six years ago the U.S. offered a $5 million reward for his capture but he has evaded capture.
The UN says the ethnic cleansing carried out by Sudanese dictator Omar Hassan al-Bashir left 300 00 dead and 2.5 million homeless in the Darfur region, where his regime used rape as an instrument of terror. International Criminal Court prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo requested a warrant to arrest him on 10 charges genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity but critics said it would make matters worse for the people of Darfur. Last week al-Bashir, 63, danced in front of a massive crowd and gave a defiant speech during a visit to Darfur.
Known as Dr Death SS officer Dr Aribert Heim is accused of the killing and torture of inmates at the Mauthausen concentration camp. Now 94, his methods included injecting toxic compounds into the hearts of victims and performing surgery without anaesthetic. He is one of the last major Nazi fugitives still at large. He fled Germany in 1962. This month, it was revealed he was living in Chile. The Simon Wiesanthal Centre and German and Austrian governments are offering a $495,000 reward.
Mladic, 66, was Bosnian Serb leader Karadzic’s army chief and a key figure in the ethnic cleansing of Croats and Muslims. He was indicted for genocide by the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (UN-ICTY) at The Hague in 1995. The Serbia government is offering $1 million for his capture while the USA is offering $5 million. He is one of only two of 161 wanted by the UN-ICTY who remain free. The other is Goran Hadzic who faces 14 counts of war crimes.
The man allegedly behind the world’s worst terror attack continues to evade justice almost seven years after 9 /11 in which 3000 people died. Saudi Arabian Osama Bin Laden, 51, has also been indicted over the 1998 embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. There is almost $50 million reward on his head. His most likely whereabouts are thought to be around the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan. US intelligence officials believe that he no longer uses a cell phone.
Contributor: Tamala
When an innocent person dies, it is wrong whether it’s in Hiroshima or New York or Baghdad. You cannot differentiate it by saying one is a tragedy and the other an act of terrorism. Both acts resulted in the same thing, innocent deaths.
We went to Iraq under the pretext of a pre-emptive strike, to find and destroy WMDs. What a load of crap! How many innocent people have we killed? Is that a tragedy or an act of terror?
The ‘RETARTED’ comments are hilarious!!
I was so hungry that I RETARTED until the bakery was out!
Chunkylover:
Thank you. As it happens, my father was a decorated bomber pilot in WWII in the Army Air Corps–in combat naturally. He served in New Guinea and the Phillippines. I had two uncles in the army, both of whom served in combat in the Pacific in the island campaigns. I had two other uncles who served in the Navy, again in combat operations in the Pacific, and one other uncle who was a lieutenant in the army in the ETO, who led a combat platoon. I believe he was at D-Day, from what I was told, but at any rate survived all the way to the occupation of Germany… I have photographs he sent to my father showing the village in Germany where his group was billeted at war’s end. Fortunately my father and all my uncles survived the war despite all of them being there in the thick of it… sadly the uncle who’d served in Europe later re-upped to fight in Korea, and was killed there. I’m very sorry about your great-uncle. I wish none of it had ever happened.
My father and my uncles all detested war on account of their experiences. But as I’ve said here before, I know that it’s quite likely that the atomic bomb saved their lives, as it saved the lives of countless other Americans, British, Dutch, Chinese, Russians and Japanese who would have died on the shores of Japan fighting that last, horrific battle. Yes, some 200,000 – 300,000 people–soldiers, seamen and civilians–died in those two cities–but there’s every evidence that this spared the lives of at least as many soldiers and civilians on both sides, and quite likely many more.
I don’t pretend and have never pretended that this was a “judicious” or happy bargain. It was horrible. It’s the kind of thing that should never be allowed to happen again. I simply try to be grown up about it, as I know, from being the son of a combat veteran, that that war forced those kinds of choices, and therefore is the reason it should be looked back on as surely the worst tragedy mankind has ever coped with.
What offends me is the heap of cant, childish moralizing and historical distortion and revisionism that has grown up around the bombings. I’ve presented clear evidence in arguments before that there was no way of knowing what the Japanese were going to do, and that there was every indication that they meant to fight on until they were overwhelmed. Evidence to the contrary, on the other hand, has always been tenuous and flimsy and based on *suppositions* and assumptions whose validity is totally unknown. Someone mentioned that the question has never been settled, but that I act like it has. Well both are true. But to me the mere fact that some people, including scholars, continue to argue out this event in history is not proof that one side or the other is right. As Paul Fussell noted several years ago, it always seems to be the people who were NOT there, who did NOT fight in combat or did not have a relative who fought in combat, who hold the view that the atomic bombings were “evil” and “terrorist acts.” Whereas those who WERE there, in combat–common soldiers and seamen and many officers as well–or, like myself, the child of a combat veteran–these people see, instead, not an act of evil but the closing act of a horrible tragedy. The one point of view is ridden with naive moralizing, the other tinged with tragic irony. To me the latter is closer to what life is really all about.
Temian;
Jfrater (Jamie) can testify to the fact that “logar” and I are not the same person–I do not post here under any other guises than my own. Period.
I will vouch for Randall – he always posts as Randall and nothing else.
Hey Randall,
Idle curiosity: what part of New Guinea did you father serve in? My father and grandfather (a MAF pilot) spent a fair bit of time in PNG, mostly the highlands.
Tempyra:
I wish I knew more details about my dad’s service. My older brothers may know, but we don’t usually talk about this stuff. I only found out a few years ago that my dad flew a B-25, in fact, and that he was one of the so-called “Kenney’s Kids” in what I believe was the 5th Air Force… (at least, this is the info I have) up until then I’d only known that he was a bomber pilot in the Pacific, and I knew where he’d served. For god’s sake, I only just found out a year ago that he had a collection of sports cars… my sister didn’t even know this, and she’s ten years older than me. She just didn’t remember it.
See, my dad died of cancer in 1965, when I was just a few months old. So I never knew him. From what I was told he never talked about his war experiences anyway. My mother didn’t meet him until after the war, so her knowledge of his service was sketchy at best. Much of what I heard about his war service came from others in the family. I only know that he was based in New Guinea, participated in bombings of Japanese bases in the region, and in bombings of Japanese shipping. Quite likely he flew one of the modified B-25s that did the “skipjack” bombing of Japanese ships–diving the twin-engined bomber like a dive bomber, with modified cannons in the nose… in order to drop bombs that then skipped on the water and exploded against the side of Japanese ships. I assume he was one of those pilots because of some things my uncles said… also, later in life he was a cropduster–hardly proof, but those guys kind of fly like that, if you ever see them–like they were flying fighter planes. My dad *didn’t* fly a fighter… but it kind of made me wonder why a bomber pilot would end up flying kind of *like* a fighter pilot. So maybe he was a skipjack bomber. I don’t really know for sure.
I know that later he was stationed in the Phillippines, and I’ve seen his army record for his decorations in both campaigns. Sadly, that’s all I know.
Randall,
That’s sad that you never had the chance to get to know your dad (in person I mean).
My other grandfather (not the pilot) lived through WWI and II, but never really talked about it to anyone. It’s kinda frustrating that the people involved in such major events find it too traumatic (or mundane, who knows?) to talk about their personal experiences with their family.
The grandfather who was a pilot in PNG for the Missionary Aviation Fellowship (after the war, during the 50s/60s) flew missionaries all over the country. He was based in Mt. Hagen and Wewak and flew small planes, which I can’t remember the names of right now, annoyingly. I’ve seen photos of him flying seaplanes too (a Catalina I think?). After moving back to New Zealand he did a lot of crop dusting and flew gliders for fun. He used to fly his microlight as well until not long before he died last year.
Tempyra:
Your grandfather (the pilot) sounds cool. I missed that about my dad, having the pilot thing in my life–we had books on aviation and aviation paraphernalia all around the house when I was a kid… but I never got to know my dad’s pilot buddies. It’s a different kind of life those guys lead. The closest I’ve found to it is with sailing.
I have some photos that belonged to my dad, I believe all from New Guinea. One shows a stretch of beach with palm trees–another part of the base partly flooded–all this muddy water up to the ankles, and tents and such under these enormous palms… and then a photo of what I take to be a couple of my dad’s crew, along with some others, posed on a jeep…. and on the back there’s written something like so-and-so (I don’t remember the names) with so-and-so the Canuck, a Dutch liaison officer and “Dutchess, the Jeep.”
That’s about it.
For the guys in combat, they usually didn’t want to talk because of the trauma. I remember my brother trying to coax stories out of my uncle on several occasions… he never wanted to open up. Then finally near the end of his life he did. Horrible stuff, he described. You can well imagine.
sol:
Let’s clear something up…
I am not *defending* the use of the atom bomb, per se. We might say, more accurately, that I am explaining them. It *was* inhumane, sol. War itself is inhumane. That war (WWII) was particularly inhumane.
The only thing I can tell you is that the people who fought that war and lived through it–soldiers AND civilians on both sides–understood that it was a “Total War,” and it was NOT for no reason at all that a military directive went out during the preparations for the invasion of Japan to the effect that “there are no civilians in Japan.” It was well known that the Japanese people held fanatical devotion to their emperor, and that they had had inculcated into them the belief that their only lot in life was to die for him if need be. Surrender was unthinkable to the Japanese mind, and the average Japanese, it was understood, could not even imagine it. Moreover, the Japanese military itself had issued orders for the arming of all able-bodied citizens of a wide age range, and of both *****es, and that these “civilians” were expected–*expected*–to meet the enemy at the beaches. At least one Japanese general or admiral said that he expected the Japanese nation to die to defend the Emperor, to the last man, woman and child… and it was Suzuki, the Prime Minister who has been revisionistly-painted as a “peacenik” (he was anything but) who actually said that he would sooner die defending his Emperor than ever surrender–and if he did so die, he “expected the 100 million souls of the Empire to stand before my prostrate body and die as well, defending His Majesty.”
These are only a couple examples of the Japanese mindset that caused American military planners to believe that A) the Japanese were very unlikely to ever surrender and B) that an invasion would therefore be necessary–and that it would be an unmitigated bloodbath the likes of which mankind had never seen.
Some may say that no one KNEW that this was certain to be the case. But again, such people speak from the benefit of hindsight. Such hindsight was not given to Harry Truman and his military staff, however. They could only operate on what they knew about the Japanese, and weigh the cost to all the human beings engaged in that terrible conflict. Japanese cities were already being destroyed from the air by conventional bombs–so the use of the atomic bomb seemed, to them, a natural extension of policy, and if shocking enough, perhaps a way to startle the Japanese into giving up before the bloodletting of an invasion would have to be necessary.
In addition, Japanese military production was not limited to factories and such–it was entwined throughout their cities in cottage industries–home assembly centers–that made it difficult and in many cases virtually impossible to pick out military targets from non-military.
The people who planned these attacks had one basic theory in mind, and it had operated in the campaign against Germany as well as against Japan: you are fighting a war. Your enemy has an extensive capability to wage that war, and it will require a long, protracted period to grind him down militarily to the point where he is certain to lose. During this period, thousands upon thousands will die fighting on both sides. And then, because you are dealing with a fanatical enemy, even when it is certain that he cannot win, there is every evidence that he will STILL not give up. Which means you will not only have to beat him in the field, but actually enter his land and occupy him, and FORCE him to submit. The number of deaths and the length of time this would take rises significantly as a result.
Imagine, for instance, if we had not bombed German cities during the war, in order to destroy their factories and means of moving war materiel about. Imagine how much longer and bloodier the campaign against Germany would have been.
So it was with Japan. Yes, you can find a few military men–largely ground based, army officers and some navy, steeped in the old way of doing things–who believed the atom bomb was “unnecessary” and so on. But that’s just it… in most cases these are the same men who believed it was unproductive to bomb military production sites from the air at all—they believed it wouldn’t really end a war any quicker. But no one today doubts that what helped bring Germany to its knees was the uninterrupted bombing campaign against German military production. Back then many traditional military minds couldn’t conceive of such a thing *really* working–just as twenty years before they could not conceive of aircraft being able to sink battleships. But they could and did, and the bombing campaigns against military production DID work.
These men faced the same problem with Japan, then. The Japanese gave every indication of being utterly unwilling to give up. The only terms under which they would even consider a cessation of hostilities would have left them in advantageous positions in Asia and the Pacific which would have rendered the war a pointless waste and would have allowed them to rebuild and fight again in due course. (Not to mention the continued occupation of parts of China and other parts of Asia). This was unthinkable and sheer madness from an Allied point of view. So what was to be done? Invade, and run the risk of allowing the war to grind on another year or more? It was projected that the war would not then conclude until November, 1946, when it was assumed the Japanese would finally be worn down. In that time it was projected that there could be over a million casualties.
Do you make that choice? Or do you step up the bombing campaign that was attempting to destroy the Japanese ability to *make* war.. and, yes, demoralize the Japanese people–by resorting to a new, inhuman bomb which just might *shock* the Japanese into giving up?
There are “supposes” and “ifs” and “what-ifs” and “maybes” on all sides of this argument. But one thing was sure–the bombs might very well end the war quickly and decisively. Horrific as that was… godawfully terrible as it was… as bloody-minded as it was… a chance to end the war quickly rather than run the risk of it grinding on indefinitely, was taken.
I don’t dispute that it was a terrible thing and horribly inhuman. But it was the sensible, and in a twisted sense, the “right” decision.
Hate has nothing to do with it… not for me at least. I am partly of German descent myself… but I have only ever felt that it was a pity… a pity… that the bomb was not ready in time to drop on Germany. A bomb that would have wiped out the German hierarchy, dropped on the center of power in Berlin, or Berchtesgaden, that would have killed Hitler and all his cronies–would certainly have shortened that war and saved god knows how many lives–not just soldiers and civilians, but people in the death camps as well. It’s a godawful thing to say, and I don’t enjoy saying it. But how much better it would have been if Germany had been defeated thusly in 1944 or earlier, rather than having to wait until May, 1945. I can only think of the people who would have lived who ended up not having that chance.
for *****s sake
F.F.S!
Doubt you could fit all that on a tshirt
****
115. Vera Lynn
What no one has mentioned, and what I think is scary, is that in the past 2 American elections for president, there has been an ENORMOUS amount of grey as far as to who really won. The citizens no longer have control over who our elected leaders are. This is all being decided for us.
Segue: Do you actually read Randall’s comments to find the meaning? Girl, you have too much time on your hands. I don’t have the patience.
****
Vera Lynn
It *IS* scary, but it hasn’t been just the past two elections. Go back through a history of Presidential elections one day. Compare the popular vote with the electoral college and find out just how many times the people have actually elected a President! It’ll make your hair stand on end.
What everyone forgets…and our leaders reinforce our forgetting…is that our form of government is a Republic, closer to a Democratic Republic, *NOT* a Democracy. *We* don’t elect the President. We haven’t since somewhere around Adams…I’d look it up to be sure, but I’m still abed due to a really bad few days…week…and I’m just barely recovering, with the creation of the electoral college. Since then, we only elect people who “say” they are going to vote for so-and-so, but they are free to change their minds.
It’s a *****ed up system, if you ask me. (Pardon my swearing, but sometimes, a little Anglo-Saxon is the only way to go).
Re: reading Randall. I have this weird ability to speed skim read, and yet retain (usually) what I’m reading. With Randall, and a few others, that’s what I’ll do. When something strikes me as important, I read that bit at normal speed, then back to speed skim.
Takes no time at all.
Something I find amusing… my 109. response to 107. munro elicited exactly 0 response. I take this to mean only one thing: I was so spot on, there was nothing to say!
BTW, VL, how are you?
****
129. Randall
……. At least one Japanese general or admiral said that he expected the Japanese nation to die to defend the Emperor, to the last man, woman and child……and so on
****
Randall, my father was part of the American forces occupying Japan *IMMEDIATELY* following the surrender. His stories of the Japanese civilians were stories of lovely, polite, civil people, who harbored no animosity toward the Americans or Allied troops. Quite the opposite, they seemed to see the Japanese government and military as the direct cause of the suffering of their people.
There is usually a wide schism between published propaganda parading as history, and the truth. With your keen mind, I’m stunned you didn’t doubt the source materials, keeping the situation in mind.
there so many bad people out there and many many more are not identified…. after these serial Bomb blasts in India ..my dad has finally decided that we might leave India even before April… IOW is and always be a peaceful place to live… ummm hopefully as my grand dad says no where is safe
can some one make list on safer or safest place in the world to live?
#135 – I’m pretty sure Japan is usually rated as the safest country to live in, but I’ll tell you this, I have no fear walking through even the worst neighborhoods in Toronto, Canada. At night too.
While I actually take being compared to Randall as a compliment, he makes much more sense than I, verbose or not.
I assure you, he ain’t me.
Kris: Stay away from the USA- we’re all no better than terrorists. A murder on every street corner. The odd firebomb every now and then. Weren’t we #1 on that list, for a little while at least?
Lisa Ling said (and I heard this with my own 2 ears) that she could ride her bike through Shanghai w/o any sense of danger. That what the people lose in freedom, gives them another sort of freedom.
I have never forgotten that.
I will also NEVER forget the sound people make when they hit the pavement. That was one of the hardest things for me to deal with: the choice. I tried and tried to make myself forget. I cannot.
I cannot.
I left out “at 4 in the morning.”
Typically here in the states, no woman is safe out alone at 4 in the morning. I know that in Chicago, I am not. I would be a target. Immediately.
“I will also NEVER forget the sound people make when they hit the pavement.”
I know that sound also, wish I didn’t.
I might point out about Bin ladin and the 9/11 attacks; The only evidence pointing to bin ladin was a video allegedly found in Iraq featuring Bin Ladin confessing. Trouble is that the guy in the video is right handed, which Bin is not and It doesn’t even look like Bin Ladin.
Also surveys show that up to 30% of US citizens believe that the government ether let the attacks happen or did it themselves.
History shows countless examples of false-flag operations done in order to manipulate the populace. It’s not in conceivable that Bin Ladin is not responsible.
I was in New York when 9/11 happened and always thought it a little strange that within a few minutes of the second tower being hit news reports were attributing the attacks to Bin Laden, without any correlating evidence at the time to back it up. It just felt a little too convenient to be pinning the blame on someone before the events had fully played out.
Really? Wow!. Being a New Zealander, I wasn’t around or even aware of the early reports. I think that Bin Ladin is a scapegoat for these matters. I’m also going to put my ass on the line and state my belief that the 9/11 attacks where an inside job and I would side with the ’9/11 Truth Movement’ if I were a US cit.
Actually I think this would be a good topic for a ‘your view’ discussion.
Here are some polls with Americans about the 9/11 attacks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_opinion_polls
Great List, but i’m not really going to bother to comment from reading some that have been posted and if i do comment, it wont be about the list (sorry jfrater, i know that it’d be off topic), some of the stuff written by a particular commentor about the justification of the 9/11 attacks is just utter bull***** and i’d like to take it up on a more personal level with the little *****er.
Tempyra and Randall – About the serving in PNG during WWII, were any of your relatives working with the Engineers putting all the roads and bridges through PNG during that time?, my Grandfather (although an Australian citizen at the time) was serving with the English as one of the head Architects designing the road system.
Ooops! that should have said in the last sentence “serving for the English as a liason officer between the American Engineers and the PNG”.
Also, if anyone is wondering how an Aussie would be serving for the English, i think it had to do with the fact that my Grandfather was originally from Ireland.
CRSN: My grandfather and his family were there after WWII, in the 50s/60s. He may have known of the English and Australian engineers who worked there but I don’t recall him mentioning any in particular sorry.
Hobolad (53)
When Bin Laden kills innocents, it’s *evil* right? When we kill innocents, it’s a means to an end. We think we’re allowed, but we’re just the same.
I mean, take Hiroshima & Nagasaki for instance- the largest loss of life by terrorist action (if I’m not mistaken). You can say we murdered all those innocents as a means to an end, so it’s okay. But isn’t Bin Laden doing exactly the same thing- killing as a means to an end?
Major difference between The Bomb and 9/11 is that the Bombs were arrived at as the most VIABLE means to achieve a specific outcome (as per the various options already pointed out).
What possible VIABLE, SPECIFIC outcome could have advanced Bin Laden’s (or whichever Terrorist you want to deem responsible) cause from 9/11?
Cheers
Lee
Great list Tamala!
“Now, a democratically elected government is one thing, a dictatorship or a monarchy is another.. Or is it? A despot only has as much power as the masses allow him to have, either through their actions or inactions.”
I disagree, democracy, democratic republic, monarchy, dictatorship, whatever- the people in the street have no say in anything, and they’re the one that end up getting killed.
“If the Afghanistanis have problem with the US invading their country, tough *****. The leadership cooperated with and harbored Bin-Laden, and refused to hand him over when confronted with that fact. I don’t care if they think Bin-Laden was right for what he did or not, any more than they care about what I think. It’s a nasty little circle.”
The *leadership*. Not the people. I would personally feel a bit miffed if I one day got bombed to bits because of some injustice committed by the leadership that, even if I knew of it, I wouldn’t be able to change.
“Operation Northwoods? Are you Wiki-ing again? Bad boy! Why would you whip out something that the US *didn’t* do? Allegedly. Try using something that the US has done in recent times, pre-9/11. As far as I can tell, you skipped your modern American history class after mid-semester.”
It was on another listverse list- I used it as an example because of the idea that foreigners are guilty of the crimes of their leadership, and their killing would be morally justified. People are horrified by the idea of Northwoods and the like, because it’s the leadership targeting it’s own civilians (well, planning to).
I wanted to make the comparison that the civilians that would be killed in Northwoods are no different to the foreign civilians killed.
I’ll get round to everyone’s comments, quite a lot since my last visit
I was in New York when 9/11 happened and always thought it a little strange that within a few minutes of the second tower being hit news reports were attributing the attacks to Bin Laden, without any correlating evidence at the time to back it up. It just felt a little too convenient to be pinning the blame on someone before the events had fully played out.
chris – I’m not so sure. As soon as the second plane hit the towers I said to my wife that I wouldn’t be at all surprised if “that guy bin Laden” was behind it. I had been a director of a bank in London during the preceding 10 years and we received regular “FBI Most-Wanted” types of security-notifications. Even based on my cursory reading of these things, his name was the first to pop into my head – yet, at that stage, virtually nobody (ie. Joe Public) had heard of the guy.
So, I’m not at all surprised that the knowledgeable “experts” conjectured so quickly that bin Laden was probably behind it…
“Hobolad and Randall
Please give it a rest. If you two need to really hash it out,then open your own forum. My great-uncle was 19 years old when he was killed by a Japanese sniper in the Philippines,he was part of MacArthur’s invasion force. The Japanese mainland was next and they were going to fight tooth and nail to the end. There was also one last bombing raid done after the A bombs, and the Japanese Army was trying to usurp the Emperor’s power because he wanted to surrender and they did not. That was a war started by greedy, delusional men who wanted more power , that seems to be the basis for most wars.
Randall seems to understand WWII a little better than Hobolad, who needs to look at history without being so judgmental as to how the U.S. was the worst evil in the Pacific theater, or anywhere else.”
That’s not what I’m trying to say- I don’t think that the US was the worst evil or anything like that. I just don’t think that actions like the killing of innocents should ever be classified as morally good, necessary or not. Judge Hiroshima/Nagasaki as a necessary, sure- but to then claim it to be a moral action because of its necessity is just too Machiavellian.
That’s not in any way disrespecting (or at least, I don’t mean to disrespect) the soldiers and the people who lived through those times. It’s just that when a necessary but immoral act is rationalised and ends up celebrated as something morally good it sets a bad precedent. Kinda like in City of God- first the moral rule is kept, second there’s a necessary exception, third the exception becomes the rule.
“some of the stuff written by a particular commentor about the justification of the 9/11 attacks is just utter bull***** and i’d like to take it up on a more personal level with the little *****er.”
I’m not justifying it, quite the opposite- I’m using it as an example that no killing of innocents should ever be seen as a moral act- that while we may justify our own misdeeds by saying they’re necessary for a cause, Bin Laden would see his own misdeeds as necessary for a cause.
You’re right that I should probably just shut up, though
It’s got off topic (alright, my fault 
)
Hobolad:
One quick thing because I’m short on time at the moment…
Please do not make the mistake of assuming that I “celebrate” the atom bombs as something morally good. I do not. They were horrible expediencies. All war and everything that happens in war is, in a sense, immoral.
I simply am opposed to this cant that people resort to, calling the atom bombs an act of “terrorism” and so forth.
One other quick thing… I note that you repeatedly assert that the common people have no voice in what goes on in the world around them. This is somewhat true and is often said. But I further note that you are not an American. I’m not sure if you’re a Brit or European, or what… but it does seem to be the nature of the Euro mind that they continue to believe, as they have always believed, that the common man/woman is powerless. This is not so. Call Americans naive for believing thusly, but it’s one of the quirks of the American mind and has been ever since we got here. Now maybe we really are just powerless. But I don’t think so. NEARLY powerless, perhaps… but I’m not even sure I fully believe *that.*
Sadly, that sense of futility has started to invade the American mind more and more over the last few decades… I suppose it’s a result of the Cold War and Watergate and so forth. I hope it never fully takes us over. It’s one of the few things about the American mind that makes us different. You’re never powerless. There’s always something you can do.
Hobolad:
You said, “…democracy, democratic republic, monarchy, dictatorship, whatever- the people in the street have no say in anything…” Good lord, please don’t ever say that in front of Rosa Parks family (she was a person in the street), Jimmy Carter (peanut farmer), Bill Gates (college dropout), and the millions of others in the US who have had a direct hand in the policies made in this country and were “people in the street”.
trojan_man:
Yeah, see, good point. But that’s the difference between the American mindset and the Old World mindset. The Old World automatically assumes that people are powerless or that this or that can’t be done… and then sometimes they’re proven wrong. The New World mindset is that we DO have the power and that something CAN be done… and we believe *that* until proven wrong. Personally, as an American, I prefer our way.
It’s also more “Euro” to buy into the moral relativism thing. Now as I say I think that view has some merit in it. But I think it can be taken entirely too far. I suppose the reason Americans don’t wholly go for it is because we’re taught from early on to *stand* for something–we don’t just cleave to freedom and individual rights and opportunity as principles and ideals–they were also deeply inherent in us even before we became a nation, and they’re what we’re taught we *became* a nation for. Doesn’t make us better, just different and maybe more focused on these things and gives us more faith (albeit maybe naive faith) in them. Whereas Britain has *tradition* invested in freedom and rights, they were actually woven into what we are, so in a way it goes even deeper. It’s a cultural thing in a way.
Doesn’t exempt us from screwing it all up though and losing those freedoms and rights. We can ruin them ourselves. And this is where Hobolad has a point, although I think he’s just taking it too far. We need to be on guard against becoming powerless in the face of elites and oligarchies in our own country. We need to be responsible citizens of a democracy. The less we live up to that, the less of a democracy we have.
Sorry… I’m preaching and speechmaking. All I mean to say is, I see where Hobolad’s coming from and I do think he has some good points.
but on the other hand, I’m an American and so I still believe I have something to say and do about these matters.
I read through all of this rubbish, so I have to comment now. Thanks.
Randall, simply put, you’re letting your personal opinions about matters cloud what Hobolad is saying, as are the others. In matters of basic argument, he is right. Eliminate personal opinion, because it has no bearing on the pure, basic concept of his statement.
It doesn’t matter who’s doing right, killing is immoral. End of story. It doesn’t matter what the circumstances, he didn’t say anything about circumstances. He didn’t say anything about reasonings why killing happened. Simply put, remove any other word or side thought. Remove the words Bin Laden, US, Hiroshima, etc. etc.
He’s making a very simple statement. Killing is immoral. Which it is. Period.
You can’t argue basics w/personal opinions and emotions. That is a whole different category altogether.
Let’s try it this way. You can make the statement “stealing is bad”. Yes, yes it is. Of course, when you argue your personal feelings on the matter, you can say “but what if it’s a person who has no money and a small child who’s starving and he has to do it for the child’s (and his own) survival?” But the statement had nothing to do with circumstances or situations. All it said was “stealing is bad”, period, which is true.
Can you possibly understand the concept now, or are you still so completely pig-headed that you think you can never be wrong? Because if that’s the case, I’m here to tell you, that you are.
I guess we’re all on the same side in disliking these atrocities. My original point was that we shouldn’t let the misdeeds of people like these give us a free reign to do what we want to oppose them no matter who we hurt in the process- I’m not accusing anyone here of supporting that, that’s just the short of what I was trying to say in a fairly garbled way
Maybe I’m a bit cynical about the systems we’ve got, but it seems that only a very few can affect stuff more than superficially. I dunno, it just seems that what we have is every now and then choosing a new figurehead based on promises they won’t keep out of a choice of two- kinda like those moral dilemma situations on listverse, where you *have* to choose between two options and then get the blame for choosing
Hobolad: I do agree with most of what you are saying, but let me give you something to think about. In 1994, the nation of Rwanda went through a genocidal conflict. The United States stood by and went along with the UN (they said that “peacekeepers) were all that was required). The peacekeepers watched as hundreds of thousands of innocent people were killed. The US (along with UK, Aussies, Canada, Spain, France, etc.) could have easily gone in and saved many lives. These countries either did not fight hard enough to do so, didn’t care, or weren’t allowed to by UN agreements. That is a travesty. I would rather see the US play world police any time over what went on there. If you are going to be “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” wouldn’t you want to be damned with a clear conscience?
Randall: Luckily, our forefathers gave us a system of government that lets us do something about it. However, they did not write in a “lazy clause” into the Constitution. I hate to hear people ***** about how bad they have it and then sit on their asses and do absolutely nothing.
138. logar – July 30th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Logar, will keep that in mind… I think Isle of Wight (UK) is safer… Coz India is becoming a bad place too…
I wonder what do these people get by doing bad things… aren’t scared if same thing might happen to their dear ones too…
————-
the 94 year old nazi reminds me of that movie apt pupil. and in the top ten robin hoods ned kelley should definatly be on the list
Im chilean, and here there’s a lot of hidden nazi criminals.
In fact they formed a colony in the south of Chile, where they did genetic experiments, and helped to kill commies in the 70′s…
BIN LADEN IZ DEADDDDDDDD OK SO IZ Dr Death Aribert Heim AND NO1 WILL EVER FIND Augustin Bizimana IM TELLING YOU FROM NOW
@ jim: Yea, I reckon you might be right.
Urgh come on! Laden is his dad’s name. Osama is his name.
Oh, by the way, an Indonesian criminal escaped from Singapore Detentiion centre thingy (highest guarded prison). His name is Mas Selamat, once attempted to bomb Singapore’s world class Changi International Airport. SGD$1 million (Singapore Dollars) is the reward, and he is expected to be hiding in the Riau Islands in Indonesia.
Because of the big reward, many have turned out with people who look like Mas Selamat, and also those that did not look like him at all.
ooohhh there is a hot topic going on here …all i can say is
that i feel a lots of hormones and egos in here and for me…
NUMBER #5 ,NUMBER #4 ,NUMBER #2 and JACK THE RIPPER should be searched , found and prosecuted …JACK THE RIPPER should be somewhere in england ,he would be aprox ..124 y.o.
OK now lets get serious …i think all the above named will get whats comming their way …NO DOUPTS !!!
I think that evil gets bigger and bigger with our frustrations and he gets demolished with love and compassion.
QUOTE: IGNORANCE IS THE CAUSE OF ALL MISERY…UNQUOTE
another QUOTE:WE MAKE OUR REALITY ,THE WORLD IS WHAT WE THINK IT IS and ALL KNOWLEDGE ARE NOT TAUGHT IN THE SAME SCHOOL. BE AWARE…!!
I dont say those quotes to preache in any way …!! i like
quotes ,i think their easy to read and they are philosophical.I am simple and humble and would rather stay out of conflict and heated debates but if i would get my hands on one of those *****ers named up there i would probably
KILL THEM VERY ,VERY ,VERY SSLLLOOWWWLLLYYY ….TRUST ME THEY
WOULD SUFFER SO MUCH ,I THINK THEY WOULD RATHER WANT TO DIE FAST…$”$?$%&”&*&?*((&%*%?”(their all ***** for brains)
when you see all of those guys, bin laden does look very tame by comparison
#165 choosilicious:
What you getting all hung up about his name for? He is known as Osama bin Ladin.
I also think he is dead. Its been seven years since that piece of propaganda garbage, confession video was released.
the american govrnment is the most corrupt on earth, if they realy would like to catch characters like joaquin guzman loera, or osama bin laden they would!!! but they wont beacause they need people like that… the governmets promote them beacause thats the part they have to play…dont be surprised if el chapo guzman, or bin laden or any other of these rock stars are caught on a CIA plane in the near future…meanwile most americans are snifing coke, smoking tobacco, tweaking there heads off, or shaking fearing terrorists,thats what the governments wants us to feel and thats how the governments wants to kill our liberty,dreams and ourselves…dont let the govrnment fill your head with garbage!!! find yourselves!act with logic, and do whats right!!!
169. guero:…and do whats right!!!
****
And that would be?
My view on the world is if we all accept everyone else for who they are then there would be no conflict. Also to compare 9/11 with Hiroshima is nonsense. The Japanese were prepared to fight to the death and indeed there is EVIDENCE that Japanese civilian’s committed suicide rather that surrendering to the allies in Okinawa.
Also I think one of the great ironies of nuclear weapons is that they have prevented another world war. If it were not for them then the US and USSR would surly have gone to war.
171PC:…the US and USSR would surly have gone to war.
****
Every country which goes to war is in a surly condition. If they feel nicely towards each other why would they go to war?
169. guero – that comment wasnt very cool.
173. guy -
It may well be near some kind of truth, though. And the pro-human sentiment is undoubtedly there.
i am pretty sure that most people on earth know of the 9/11 attacks on the US. i really hope that when other people see the videos of the towers falling and the lives that were lost feel the same hatred for bin laden that i feel. i hope he is caught and executed for his horrible crimes against not only the US but the other nations he has targeted for his evil acts of terror.
he should be caught but contained in solitary confinment for the rest of his life because it is more of a punishment.
I am very anti execution, but even I believe that sometimes truly evil men deserve to die e.g. bin laden and some of the Nazi war criminals.
This list is out dated.
Aribert Heim is believed dead
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7870923.stm
bin laden is on americas most wanted
theres a bounty on his head and everything…this list is legit.
I think joseph Kony needs to be on this list. He has killed millions of children in Uganda. Look up the facts on this everyone…there is an organization called “invisible children” trying to save these kids.