I have put this topic off for a while now, owing to the extremely controversial nature of it, but I think that we are all mature enough to cope without it becoming a battle of the wills – and if not – I will just turn the comments off! So, here is our most controversial your view to date! Remember, battle against arguments – not people – ad hominem attacks are a sign of a failed argument.
Should Abortion Be Legal?
My answer: No. I believe that abortion has become so out of control that it has become a form of contraception. There is a high physical and mental cost involved and many of the young women who have abortions are not always fully aware of these consequences. From a philosophical perspective I also wonder whether we would have a cure for AIDS and other diseases now if someone hadn’t aborted the child that was going to ultimately find the cure. Of course this also applies in reverse – how many Hitlers have been prevented from being born, but I think that society is better equipped to deal with that situation if it were to arise again.
Having an abortion is a woman's unalienable right. However, I agree that abortion is murder, and that it should not be used casually.
So… Casual murder is a woman’s unalienable right, wright?
No, I believe it is a life. I don't have the time or energy to provide evidence or reasons for this, but I believe that it is. With all the technology we have today we are able to detect and see so much more about the life inside of a woman, I am still amazed it can be so easy to abort them. Well, not easy, I am sure this is never an easy decision.
Another thing, if I am wrong, and this is not a life, would millions of women suddenly regret having children they really didn't want? If the other side of the argument is correct, they are responsible for the murders of millions of unborn. Now, of course I realize, back alley abortions have resulted in the loss of many women, but I don't think current facilities are even close to coat hangers. I think that's a straw man argument anymore.
For those who think that women don't grieve or endure incredible loss when losing an unborn child, I would like them to meet some of my friends. Their loss and their pain is very real when they have miscarriages, regardless of the stage of pregnancy.
And I have met and heard from women who have had abortions. And at least from that sampling, there is a very real sense of pain and loss. If it was just a matter of choice, I would think that wouldn't exist, right?
Even though I am a pro-life, I will not stand on street corners or outside abortion clinics and protest. I will not judge or condemn someone who has had an abortion or plans to. I simply believe abortion is wrong, and if asked by a woman or couple seeking counsel, I will share my beliefs with her.
Abortion clinics are pretty shady places. I wouldn’t be surprised if they used coat hangers.
No, they aren’t. If they are “shady”, it’s for safety reasons. Ever heard of Dr. George Tiller?
To Laura re:comment #2
As a women who have given birth once, and is currently 17 weeks pregnant with my second child, I do not find Jamie's comment patronizing or *****ist one bit. It is a fact that many women deal with anguish and grief regarding the choice they made to abort their unborn child. Personally I believe there is no "dignity" in making a choice to kill an innocent life. Having emotions to go along with the choices that we make (be it good or bad) and dealing with them appropriately IS what gives us our "humanity", NOT being tough enough to have an abortion and being unaffected by it.
The excuse that it's just a "clump of cells" is a tired one. How then at six weeks, did that "clump of cells" in me have a beating heart that was clearly detected on the fetal monitor. Or how at 20 weeks did that "clump of cells" develop enough for me to see during an ultrasound that I was clearly having a hiccuping, thumb-sucking son.
Any woman who is able to go through 9 months of the miracle of pregnancy, and still think abortion is acceptable, is completely irrational. I cannot fathom how someone could do this.
If someone has the guts to stand for abortion- then have the guts to watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjNo_0cW-ek
The Silent Scream is a highly inaccurate and outdated movie. Very few abortions take place that late.
I am undecided on the issue – which hopefully I am allowed to be.
I would just like to throw something out there regarding Jamie's comment on aborting potential prodigies that could cure HIV etc…
Looking from the other side, assume a 15-year old girl falls pregnant – abortion is illegal and she is law abiding – so she has the child. Drops out of school to raise the kid and ends up reliant on the state and crummy jobs for her and her child to survive. Had the same girl had the option of abortion, she could have stayed in school, gone to college…and ended up finding the cure to HIV.
Just throwing that out there….
Put the child up for adoption then.
Abortion takes innocent human life; it’s the ultimate act of murder. So, no.
Yes. It is not possible to take life where no life exists. The clump of cells that is removed in an abortion of any kind is not alive, it could not live outside the body of the woman. For all intents and purposes, it IS the body of the woman. It is also a threat to the health, autonomy, and future of the woman. You cannot remove the woman from the equation and call the fetus “life.” It does not exist without her.
Also, citing the potential grief of, or “mental costs” to the woman is an extremely patronizing and *****ist way to view it. It strips the woman of her humanity, her dignity. I am able to make decisions for myself, and I don’t appreciate anyone telling me otherwise. That argument reduces women to dependent beings, unable to make choices for themselves, needed to be protected from the big bad world. It makes women slaves to their biology.
Just because it can’t live outside the woman doesn’t mean it isn’t human. At just three months old it has a beating heart. Most women don’t even know that they’re pregnant at that point. To call it a clump of cells is also making the baby a slave of your biology. Sure it lives in the woman’s body. But that’s like saying you are part of your house because you live in it. That fetus is as much a human as you are. Also, you are dependent on nutrition just like the baby. Where it comes from doesn’t matter. If you take food and water out of the equation you couldn’t live either. As humans, we all are dependent beings, though we try to view ourselves as more. There are circumstances in which abortion should be legal, but just because someone doesn’t want a baby, doesn’t mean they should kill it. Adoption is a better alternative.
If taken from the stance that someone would consider it murder, why would it be absurd to consider mental damage from it. No one could walk away from premeditated murder without mental ramifications unless they were a sociopath. How is that ripping dignity away or making one dependent?
Wholeheartedly agree with Laura on this!
I would agree with Laura but i would also say that there is “mental costs” to a woman and the *****ist patronizing bit of the sentance above was to exclude men. In many cases (for example if the pregnancy was the result of a rape) the woman would be alone in making this desicision, execpt for her family/friends etc. but in many cases abortion a desicion made by both the mother and father. To suggest that there are significantly more grief to the woman is an extremly old fashioned way of looking at it.
In the society we have – yes. In the society we would want – no.
Abortion should not be legal because it is murder for the reason of not wanting a child. If you don’t want a child then you should not be having unprotected *****, and if you still do then you should have to live with the consequences.
Abortion should be legal because we live in a world where contraceptives are not a hundred percent effective, and the average woman is not big enough to love an innocent child when it was made by a rapist.
In the end I have to say… any persons right to their body is absolute. What I do with my body is of no concern to the next person, or should not be. You can argue as much as you want that a baby is a life – it is made of the womans body, it lives of the womans body, it is part of the woman. Until it has independent thought (which requires the brain to be developed) it is not a person in its own right. Hence, the woman has as much right to perform an abortion in early pregnancy as I have to take worm medication if I happen to get a parasite infection.
So my end statement is this: abortion should be legal because the government should not decide what I do with my body, nor what you do with yours.
If the unborn child is a part of your body, then it should have the same DNA as you. Everyone’s existence is dependent on others and the argument that an unborn child can’t live outside the womb is not much different than a four year-old child can’t survive in the wild by himself.
um, by survive they meant being able to breathe, eat and ***** without dying. the fetus literally won't be living anymore if it is not literally connected to the woman. you sir, are a fool.
Something I would like to add- the term “pro-abortion” is bandied around frequently. There is no such thing as pro-abortion. I agree with Hillary Clinton that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. Nobody here is advocating the use of abortion as birth control, or arguing that it is a good thing.
It is, however, a fundamental and inalienable right of women- of all human beings- to determine their own lives. I refuse to let the government decide what is best for my body, my life, my future.
Absolutely it should be legal.
A fetus lacks what all humans have- a functioning brain. Every living person from a newborn baby to a 120 year old woman has at least one thing in common: what makes us all tick, what separates life from death, the brain.
A fetus is not considered a person, why does a pregnant woman say “I have two kids and one on the way” instead of “I have three kids”? How come when there’s a miscarriage, there isn’t a funeral?
If abortion isn’t legal, then instead of women in doctors offices, you’ll have women in dirty basements with wire coat hangers up their uterus.
“Pro-life is anti-woman” -George Carlin
yes it should.
your not killing an innocent person because the fetus doesnt really have feeling. it doesnt know that it wont develop. and think of the women that wouldnt have to go through the pain, mental and physical, of pregnancy and birth just to give it up for adoption since they cant handle a baby. with abortion, that wouldnt happen. and yeah its the consequences of unprotected ***** but things happen. and if you dont abort the baby and put it up for adoption, it might not get adopted and will have to grow up in foster care.
Yes, keep abortion safe and legal, in the US at least.
goof_ball: what’s wrong with foster care? I was in it for years and I’m not a serial killer. Growing up in foster care is a hell of a lot better than not growing up at all. Abortion is not giving the kid a chance. Sure, he may be the next Gacy, but not giving them a chance is ridiculous. Also, saying that you might hate the kid because his father was a rapist is (in my opinion) a bit strange. If I were to father a kid, and the mother was the worst women to ever plague the earth, I would still love the kid to death, anyone who hates their own flesh and blood is (again, in my opinion) sick in the head. The kid may be half rapist, but he’s also half you, and its not like there’s a rapist gene (that I’m aware of).
In others words, no, I don’t think abortion should be legal.
If this argument comes off mean or rambling incoherently I apologize, I was in the hot sun all day (Denver has been ridiculously hot lately!)and I’m just all around mad.
John G …. your arguments are poor.
“A fetus lacks what all humans have- a functioning brain.”
Wrong. A fetus has a brain, and brain stem, from an early point in the process. And it functions too. It regulates the heart, causes digestive processes to form, etc. If not, then when does it get one … when it is born?
“A fetus is not considered a person, why does a pregnant woman say “I have two kids and one on the way” instead of “I have three kids”?”
Why do we say the sun rises, when we obviously know that it is the earth’s rotation?
“How come when there’s a miscarriage, there isn’t a funeral?”
Stillborn babies (which fail to match your characteristics of being a functioning human being, apparently) are often “funeralized”. And the grief that most women feel after a miscarriage is real, funeral or not.
Your arguments are weak.
stillborn is different to a miscarriage. a miscarriage happens when it is still an embryo or fetus. an no, there is no funeral for this… a still born is when a almost fully developed baby is born dead. usually during the 3rd trimester.
None of that changes the fact that it’s still a woman’s choice. Who the hell are you to tell other people what they can or can not do with their bodies? You have no right whatsoever to do that, and thinking you do just plain makes you an *****. I’d rather kill a million unborn babies than take away someone’s most basic freedom of choice. You say his arguments are weak, whilst you have no argument at all. You have in no way shape or form the right to tell anyone what to do with their body, and you should be ashamed for trying to do so.
You are following a dogma here. The embryo/fetus is NOT HER BODY. Science tells you so. Is an scientific fact that the fetus has a different DNA than that of the mother. Human life begins at conception.
Of course the embryo is less developed and more dependent than the fetus, as the fetus is less developed than the newborn, and the newborn is less developed than a toddler and so on. But is a scientific, hard fact, tha we all begin our existence as a zygote. There is not any “magic trick” that made you go from “a clump tissue” (as the pro-abortion dogma wants to make you believe) to a human with right to live once you get out of the placenta. The only defining moment that marks the begining of a new specimen of the human species, is the conception. This is science. Other than that, is just religious beliefs in what we can call “pro abortion cult”.
wow. so many people here don’t support abortion!
My answer: Yes, yes, yes! It is ultimately a woman’s right to choose and whether or not you agree with that, you should not infringe upon their rights. I believe that the fetus is just that, not a baby, not a person, until it can sustain itself outside the womb.
Ok… so i have a weird view on this.. I could never do it. NEVER. other than 4 cases. The baby would never live a normal life; the pregnancy would kill me; it was a product of rape; it was a product of incest. That’s it. I believe that a woman should have a right to choose, but i believe that you should only be allowed one a life time (unless your second has SERIOUS developmental problems and could never live).
I absolutely agree. Personally, I would never be able to go through with it. I would also never say that it isn't a woman's right to do it if she feels that the child's life or her own would be in danger. It should not be used just because you don't want a child. If you don't want one, then don't have unprotected *****, unless you have another form of birth control to back it up, such as the pill or implanon.
Having an intense fascination and reasonably thorough knowledge of neuropsychology and it’s surrounding academic subjects I have utilised the branch of thought I am most accustomed to in which to develop my argument on this particularly controversial topic as my own opinion could not be created based upon the fundamentals of the debate.
With that aside, allow me to outline my two key arguments. Firstly I am pro-abortion being legal (Political framing has become an evidently boring and overused gimmick which, in this context, merely causes unnecessary feelings of guilt and encourages a serious debate to become a competition of opinions) despite the fact, judging by what I understand of the subjects I previously explained to have a notable knowledge of, I believe a fetus to be a living human given time (Initially it is as many ‘pro-lifers’ refer to a ‘blob of cells’ in my opinion) and this is before the current period of time given until abortion is disallowed unless there are specific circumstances regarding threats to the woman’s health. The brain of a fetus grows particularly fast in comparison to many areas of it’s biology and is complete earlier than many other areas also, the spinal cord however is a different matter but I ramble.
By my understanding having a partially functioning central nervous system classifies as life, but yet, I agree this life should be allowed to be terminated without the possibility of legal interference. The underlying assumption of the abortion debate for both sides is that life is an extraordinarily valuable asset, THE most valuable asset one could argue but yet I agree that it can be destroyed if necessary. Soldiers are executed on both sides of a battlefield and become numbers to preserve their ideals. Animals are killed for our food. Abortions can also be made for our convenience. Granted ‘convenience’ is not a particularly astute term to be applied in a debate regarding such unstable and uncertain concepts but it is in my opinion the most fitting word; I do not refer to something being convenient in this context as being *****ogous to having a shop next door or owning some brand of toilet/chair hybrid but instead as convenient on a far greater level. Convenient in that the person shall not be required to spend approximately 18 years of their life raising a child whom they did not want; for that matter how shall this in-turn affect the life of the child? Yes, many of us would like to believe we would rise to the challenge of raising a child that was unexpected and make the best of it but such a thought is ecologically invalid; you cannot know what such a situation is like unless you have experienced it personally (Though I respect those who have)
My second argument is a very simplistic question of practicality, with abortion being known to the human species now, it shall use it. If there is a sociological, cultural, zoological or generally human pattern that could be confirmed beyond that of any other it would be that if humanity is aware that something is at their disposal be it knowledge, power, items etc they shall wish to use them and given the size of the human population it is overwhelmingly likely that they shall. My basic point here is that if abortion is made illegal people shall continue to do it but in less healthy conditions.
I could also raise the dispute of the population problem being related to abortion but that would be a moot point so I shall disregard the thought.
Before I portray my ending notes I would just like to offer a brief opinion on the protest of legalised abortion. Those who utilise images of aborted fetuses to reinforce their points, you are convincing no one. This topic is rather personal to me (Please don’t allow that to persuade you to not argue against me however, I welcome criticism of my perspectives) due to my closest friend being made to cry at one time and when reflecting on this event. She remains ‘Pro-Choice’ but is simply upset by the images depicted. Thankfully I am far less squeemish and feel unbothered by the images but yet I find it to be a very shallow and cruel fashion to protest in. I welcome the opinions of all people and yes, the images used in the aforementioned protests are generally how the remains of many abortions appear but that form of protest is not only cruel and potentially offensive but also counter-productive to the cause of those performing it as it is astoundingly unlikely that a person shall agree to change their perspective on a very serious topic because a group of people upset them over it.
To conclude, I believe that abortion, beyond a certain point, is the killing of a human but the lives of the humans who are already present in this world and environment should be given priority over those of the unborn.
Forgive me for the length of this text and I appreciate your patience in reading it – Niall
Yes I think it should be legal but I also think that it should be more limited than what it is at the minute. For example if the pregnancy just was an accident then no I don’t think abortion is right but for those that have been raped or that it could possibly affect their mental health or could put the mother physical health under great strain then yes it should be legal. I mean those who are raped and made pregnant they could see the rapist everytime they look at the child and could end up resenting the child for what their father has done. And for those who it could affect there mental or physical health it could also end up killing them to a greater extent due to the fact that the birth may actually end up killing the mother or if it affects their mental ability could cause great strain on their health and they could end up in a psychiatric ward or worse suicidal. So in my opinion if it could cause less damage to the parents yes abortion is right but if its just because they dont want a child or something then they should have used better precautions.
The solution is called adoption. If somebody hates their child for being a product of their misfortune, they are the ones who need the mental/emotional help. And what’s to stop people from giving the fake story that they were raped? I think it should be legal only in hospitals if a professional gives the verdict that either the woman or baby or both would die in the delivery process.
You are a terrible, terrible person. If you honestly feel women should be forced to carry an unwanted child for 9 months and give birth to it, you are a terrible person and you should be ashamed. Unless you have personally experienced this, you have no right to say that. To just wave off the emotional and physical strains that come with carrying a child, let alone an unwanted one, shows a disrespect for the most basic of human rights and women in general. You are a terrible person.
If you want an interesting argument go read freakonomics. It makes a logical conclusion that abortion lowers crime rate. While there could be a few lurking variables there is definitely a correlation
There are some very interesting comments thus far – thanks everyone – and especially thanks for keeping things civil
It further enforces my belief that Listverse has the smartest and most polite citizens on the net!
Without a doubt it should be!, and a little
sidenote- A BABY SH0ULD BE B0TH THE (FATHER!!) AND
THE W0MAN’S DECISI0N!!, it took two 2 make- its the
guys sperm, if we dont agree then it should matter.
im so tired of woman that act as if they created the child
themselves like Mary.
This is true, but surely you would not say that the man is as impacted by the pregnancy- does he give birth?. Nope. Does he carry a child for nine months? Nuh-uh
does the male partener have to watch his weight, diet and environment for three quarters of a yer? Nullo modi. IMO abortion should absolutely be legal- and the woman should ALWAYS have the final descicion as it is predominantly HER life bwing impacted.
It shouldn’t be legal. Weather is a bunch of cells or not, it is going to be a child, a human being, and well even if it is a buch of cells, we all know cells are living things, so even if a fetus is just a bunch of cells, it is a whole bunch of living cells
!! Anyways, I totally agree with the argument about women being able to make their own decisions, of course they can! They shouldn’t be limited in any ways, but then comes RESPONSABILITY, whichs comes with the power of making decisions, so while the argument of letting women decide what they want to do with their bodies is something good, they also have to keep in mind responsability, because an unwanted pregnancy can be prevented, (oh yes it can) failing contraceptives should not be an excuse because people are very different from animals, we don’t follow only our instincts, we have a conscience and an unwanted child can be avoided by not having ***** until you are ready to take full responsability over a child in all senses, from the economical to psycological stuff. About the pain a women suffers in the future, well that is very real and there is medical proof of women that suffer the same syptoms that a veteran from war suffers, so there, women do suffer because of an abortion, maybe not right away but they do in the future. Also I have read testimonials of many people that their mothers tried to abort them (but procedures failed), and well they all seem to grateful for being alive but were once confused and hated their mothers. Also men should be held responsible, and not leave the whole responsability to the woman, woman can not reproduce by themselves!, hmmm I hink it all comes to good information, I’ve seen abortions many times and I also saw one through an ultrasound, for my surprise the futus moved like trying to fight for its life when pieces of it where been sucked and removed, even withouth its legs it was still moving around like trying to avoid being sucked, but then a huge clasp thinghy came and crushed its head. He was then extracted completely from the uterus. That made me consider the theory about fetus not being living things…Oh well, I just try to remembder that I can do whatever I want as long as I don’t affect other people with my actions… even if that other people resides inside of me.
You have got to be kidding me? Is this what people who can’t write, come up with? Are you just bored?
Well, remember the old saying, “If you’re bored, you’re boring.”
Smartest Citizens on the net?
I think abortion should be legal in certain circumstances – where pregnancy or birth would endanger the life of the mother, where the pregnancy is the result of rape and the mother is not psychologically able to continue with it, where the child would not be able to function alone (dependent on the definition of ‘function’ and applicable in some cases of incest and some congenital disorders), and possibly in cases where cultural conditions would endanger the life of a mother of an illegitimate child.
I don’t think it’s ethical to abort a nearly full-term child in most of those scenarios, not if it’s at the age where children born pre-maturely can survive.
Outside of those circumstances (there may be more that haven’t occurred to me) I don’t think abortion should be allowed. Human potential is too valuable a thing to be discarded.
I do feel quite strongly though, that the option of abortion should not be made inaccessible to people in the circumstances above, that government legislation shouldn’t be black and white. At the same time I find the procedure of abortion quite abhorrent – reading Samsara-gx’s comment above made me feel really ill.
I say yes, only because I support the woman’s choice to have an abortion. I do think that more education needs to be given on preventing pregnancy, other options besides abortion, etc.
I may support the right to choose, but I’m simply a pro-choicer. I don’t condone abortions and would also inform anyone that comes to me for advice that there are other options.
I also agree that it should be limited. If nothing else, I don’t believe in abortion after the first trimester, hopefully within the first month. I also think that women should discuss with their doctor before going to an abortion clinic, just to make sure that this is the right thing for her to do.
I can’t tell others what to do with the choices they made. I would rather them live up to their responsibilities or opt for abortion, but that’s not my call to make.
Oh wow, gross mistype: last paragraph, opt for adoption, not abortion
Oh, and one last thing (sorry for the triple post), about your “mental cost” argument — I know this might be true for some, but I know 4 women that had abortions, and they didn’t suffer emotional trauma. My grandmother is one of them. She will be the first to say that she did the right thing in her mind, and that she wouldn’t go back and change anything.
I completely understand that this is not the case for everyone.
It should be legalized. It should also be government controlled. They should place ridiculous amounts of taxes and fees on it. Do you realize how much revenue this would cause? Not only would this stop 90% of abortions out there by young teenage girls that don’t realize the emotional consequences, but like I said it would provide so much extra cash flowing in. Everyone complains because the economy is faltering due to no one spending money…this is because every other dumb teenage girl is getting pregnant(certain unfortunate circumstances not included naturally) and then getting an abortion. They get pregnant again and they get it aborted. Well, if they can’t afford it, they’ll end up spending the money somewhere else. Like…at a department store buying clothes for the baby. Thus…this boosts the economy. C’mon people, think.
I feel that abortion is as immoral as crushing a VEGETABLE.
I’m not a big fan of the “We could be aborting wonderful people” argument, because you usually get aborted when you can’t afford a child. Maybe it would me more worth it for a child to be dead than to be raised like crap.
Too many people on this planet anyway.
pretty poor argument jamie…
wow, so many holes in some arguments so far. let me address a couple…
“nobody has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body”…what if that woman is a baby, inside the womb of another woman. is it then o.k. to tell that woman what will happen to her body?
for those of you guys that see your selves as middle of the road types saying it should only be allowed in certain circumstances…who are you to determine the value of a life yet to be lived? what makes your value judgment any greater than anyone else?
“a fetus couldn’t support itself without the mother therefore it isn’t a living being”…try that argument with a 1 year old. kill one of them and see where that gets you with the law.
niall: you are the first person i have ever heard say that you believe that an unborn baby is a living being and women should still have the right to kill it. wow. that’s all i can say about that. wow.
and the old tired argument that women will end up in back alleys with rust coathangers is laughable that anyone uses that in a serious debate. this would happen no more frequently than ***** users need do their behavior in a back alley with terrible equipment. the service will be provided by someone who feels they must break the law to do so.
just to sum up…no, it should not be allowed for the following reasons and many more; it is murder (if you don’t believe that life happens at conception, when does it happen?) it is torture, psychologically, on many women (regardless if you think this is demeaning, it is still true in many occasions) it is the quick fix solution to a mistake and those are hardly ever the right decisions, there are many families that are willing to adopt, and other reasons which i will bring to bear later.
Just to be clear I was referencing Jamie Frater’s original comments, not Jamie comment #27.
How about an alternate to abortion. There was a professor here in NZ who proposed putting a natural contraceptive in the water supply. and to counter the contraceptive when you want a baby, take the counter-pill.
Outcome: Unwanted births would plummet to almost non existent.
No to abortion.
Question to the masses, how would Y0U feel if you were aborted, lets take time to think about it…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..0K, you would’nt be able to answer.
DiscHuker: What about the situation where a mother will die if the pregnancy continues?
And is it worth sacrificing the sanity of a raped woman? Or the life of a woman who will be killed to protect the ‘honour’ of her family?
If you think about humans in terms of resources (I am not saying we should) and disregard the idea of human potential then surely a woman who has survived until adulthood represents more value than an unborn child?
I don’t know the answers to those questions and they’re not intended as a counter to your argument in comment 28, but I would like to know what you think regarding them.
justice: I wouldn’t exist, so I couldn’t give you an opinion. But we make these judgments on behalf of other beings that can’t give us an opinion when we implement animal cruelty laws and standards, so why can’t we make them on behalf of unborn children?
Justin Anthony Knapp, you’d be surprised at exactly how much of your body doesn’t share your DNA;)
Anyway, abortion should be legal up to development of a central nervous system, as no harm is done.
I do, however, oppose the current practice of using abortion as a ‘form of contraception’. Luckily it’s more of a problem in repressed cultures – I live in a country where contraceptives and their use are covered in 6th grade.
As to the ‘cure for AIDS’ argument in original article – you do realize how many fertilized eggs abort spontaneously, do you? Artificial abortion is but a drop in the sea.
Leo: You make a good point about spontaneous abortion, if I recall correctly, something like 20 – 30% of pregnancies are naturally aborted in the first few weeks and mostly before the mother even realises she is pregnant.
I’m pro-choice.
I’m not touching this one with a ten-foot pole
*runs away*
Hannah,
I never said that women don’t feel grief and/or regret when having an abortion. It is a difficult decision, and one the no one, including myself, takes (yes, took) lightly.
What I said was that for the courts or the government to outlaw abortion based on the possibility of regret was extremely infantilizing. That argument says, essentially, that because the potential for grief exists, women ought not to be trusted to make that decision. The same reasoning could be applied to women making their own financial decisions- because the could possibly regret spending that money, we should outlaw women from having credit cards. I’m NOT equating credit with abortion, before everyone jumps down my throat, simply pointing out that the patronizing reasoning is the same. In both cases, a male-dominated authority is determining that women are unfit to make their own decisions, because the possibility exists they would regret those decisions. Surely you see how condescending this is.
This, of course, is just one of the arguments anti-choice activists use. There are similarly ineffective ones- to pick one out of a hat, letting a 4-year-old loose in the woods is NOT QUITE equatable to removing a wholly dependent fetus from a womb.
Laura: What if it were women making this decision in a woman-dominated society? Your argument depends on the existence of a male-dominated society. It’s only condescending because you’re assuming that a man/men is/are making the decision.
Or “What if it were women making this decision in an EQUAL society”, same reasoning applies.
Tempyra,
I would object to this reasoning in any society. I don’t think it is fair or legal to remove the right of a competent adult human to make their own health decisions, whatever their gender. Unfortunately, we don’t have the luxury of making decisions in a female-dominated society or even an equal one. Historically speaking, women have been subjugated to men and to their own biology and therefore, as a woman, I find this line of reasoning particularly repugnant.
Laura: Following that argument:
“I don’t think it is fair or legal to remove the right of a competent adult human to make their own health decisions, whatever their gender.”
Drugs would be legal, no? And people with incurable contagious diseases could screw whoever they wanted right?
To everyone that says no to abortion, I suggest taking a few months to work for a charity in an orphanage or go work with social services. Kids that aren’t aborted before birth are often beaten and neglected by their parents that didn’t want them and then left to fend for themselves, often turning to crime.
I’m not for killing anything, but for me I’d rather see people having abortions than letting the kids suffer a neglected and unloved life.
‘I believe that abortion has become so out of control that it has become a form of contraception.’
Then you need to look up the definition of contraception. Contraception works to prevent pregnancy. Abortion happens when there is a pregnancy, so it’s can’t be called contraception. Abortion is birth control, as it controls birth.
There is a high physical and mental cost involved and many of the young women who have abortions are not always fully aware of these consequences.
LOL! No.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
SAFETY OF ABORTION
• The risk of abortion complications is minimal: Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[12]
• Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or birth defect, and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries.[13]
• Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other cancers.[13]
• In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[14]
• The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[15]
• Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients say they would have liked to have had their abortion earlier. Nearly 60% of women who experienced a delay in obtaining an abortion cite the time it took to make arrangements and raise money.[16]
• Teens are more likely than older women to delay having an abortion until after 15 weeks of pregnancy, when the medical risks associated with abortion are significantly higher.[17]
From a philosophical perspective I also wonder whether we would have a cure for AIDS and other diseases now if someone hadn’t aborted the child that was going to ultimately find the cure.
Potential means squat in the abortion debate. The fetus that was aborted could have grown up, and raped and murdered a bus full of children. You might as well say a carrot could have found the cure for AIDS if it wasn’t made into coleslaw.
Considering the woman who have the most abortions are poor minorities, I doubt their kids would be able to get the education needed for them to get to college, let alone anywhere near a research laboratory.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
Educate yourself, because clearly you have no understanding of this subject. I’d also like to know why you didn’t put that little warning up on the homo*****ual question. Or were you already aware of your inaccuracies and didn’t want to get called out on them?
Tony S – Wrong. A fetus has a brain, and brain stem, from an early point in the process. And it functions too. It regulates the heart, causes digestive processes to form, etc. If not, then when does it get one … when it is born?
Educate yourself please. Having a brain does not make you capable of sustaining life on your own. Having a heart beat doesn’t mean anything if the heart isn’t strong enough to pump blood around the body. Having a brain isn’t going to do you much good if you don’t have a cerebral cortex.
theReal.34 – A BABY SH0ULD BE B0TH THE (FATHER!!) AND
THE W0MAN’S DECISI0N!!
When a man can take the fetus from the woman, implant it inside himself, deal with the pain, emotional, and physical effects pf pregnancy and child birth, then he can have an equal say. When a man has ***** with a woman, he relinquishes ownership of his sperm. What happens to that sperm is beyond his control. If he chooses to avoid contraception, it’s his own fault. What you’re saying is men should have ownership of a woman’s uterus, just because his sperm impregnated her. By your logic, organ donators should be allowed to dictate what happens to their organs once their in another person.
Tempyra,
C’mon, are you missing the point on purpose? The situations are not at all comparable. I don’t believe it’s necessary to get into a semantic debate as to why; I think it’s obvious that I consider an adult and a pre-20-week fetus different things entirely, with very different rights. Therefore, spreading incurable diseases among autonomous adult populations and making health decisions for yourself are very, very different things. To use your language, “people with incurable contagious diseases” who are “screwing who(m)ever they like” are not making personal health decisions, since other autonomous adults are involved against their will.
I also don’t think it’s very useful to consider theoretical societies where men or women are equal, as that is clearly not the society we are living in.
Tempyra – ‘Drugs would be legal, no? And people with incurable contagious diseases could screw whoever they wanted right?’
Drugs would not be legal, as they hurt society. Drugs bring with them crime, death, and aid in the spread of infections diseases. People with incurable, contagious diseases already screw whoever they want, or are you unaware of the statistics of HIV/AIDS infection in the USA?
To one of the above poster’s, a baby in the womb does not have the same DNA as the mother, entirely, just as living child does not share identical DNA.
Yes, I support the legality of abortion. I do think at times it has been used casually as birth control, but that in itself is not reason for it to be banned.
Also, the view that a parent does not want to deal with the “consequences” of their actions does not take into account that the child would also have to deal with consequences of which they had no control. Should a child be born for the sake of being born if it is in to a home where it is unwanted by the mother and in that already has a strike against it in succeeding?
While a very personal decision, I feel that it is worse for a child to be born where it does not have the basic want and affection and care of a mother than for it to never be born.
Lastly, legality assures a notion of quality and oversight. Simply making something illegal is not enough to stop the action from occurring. In legality, as least there is a safe option in having it done, rather than some black market “doctor”.
Anyways, I am a guy and think my views on the whole matter should be taken at the fact a decision of such a thing would have far, far less impact on me than female counterpart.
ehh
If someone doesn’t want to have a baby, the baby is better off not being born.
Reaper: Drugs hurt people (individuals) too and unborn children, not just ‘society’.
“are you unaware of the statistics of HIV/AIDS infection in the USA?” – Yep, probably because I don’t live there.
Laura: I don’t think I was missing the point, I was just applying the logic of your statement to another ‘health’ scenario.
No, if they don’t want babies, let them stop having fun!
I absolutely believe abortion should be legal. most “pro-life” people state that we should have no choice on the lives of unborn children, by making abortion legal. Well don’t you think you’re drastically changing the lives of the mothers by not giving them the choice of abortion? the moment the child is BORN, your life changes completely. so why should you be the people to dictate how other peoples lives are lived? does it really harm society for people to have abortions? theoretically, yes. but every moment we have changes the future in some way. so if we abort a baby, maybe it was a ghandi, or aristotle, or something like that. but what if the baby was a hitler, or some evil person like that? we’ll never know. until you can glimpse the future, don’t preach about all the possibilities those lives would have had. because unless its written in stone, thats all they are. hopes.
It should be legal, yes. And I believe it’s entirely the woman’s decision whether or not to have an abortion. After all, it is her body, no one else’s.
I think it depends on the situation the woman is in. They might not have enough money to support or family to help them out, so might be difficult to bring up a child without those kinds of support.
If a woman was raped, then it’s not her fault that she didn’t use contraception to prevent it. She might not even want a baby.
The only thing I disagree about abortion is that it should not be used as a contraceptive. People shouldn’t be so lazy as to think that forgetting to take the pill or where a condom is all right, because there’s ‘always abortion’. Stupid.
My opinion.
I have never met anyone who uses abortion as birth control.
I’m willing to bet that most women who have had an abortion
weigh their options quite carefully. I think most places give counseling and a stern talking before a woman has it done, and that the women are fully aware of what they are doing.
I don’t know how anyone can really say if it should or shouldn’t be completely legal or illegal until they are put into a situation where they would have to consider it.
I’m glad it is legal.
It would be far too much trauma for some women to go through it.
I don’t agree with people using it when they didn’t wear contraception.
I agree with it being used so that under certain circumstances, a child isn’t born.
However, in my saying I think that I’m glad its legal, I also think that just anybody should be allowed to give birth. It really makes me sad seeing so many of the next gen turning into… Well, you only need to see todays media to see what they are turning into.
To be parents should undergo intense training.
I don’t like abortion, I’m basically against it, but I reluctantly say it should be legal. It needs to have restrictions.
(I’m not hitting the “notify me” box, this might become another 1000+ comment thread (haha) )
As far as i know “termination of pregnancy” is legal in South Africa (where i am from).
In terms of the Termination of Pregnancy Act, termination can take place up to 12 weeks, voluntarily, after examination by a dr and so forth and so forth. between 13 and 20 weeks a abortion can be performed if it is “necessary” with certain stipulations in the act being looked at very carefully in each this case. After the 20th week of pregnancy a abortion can be performed but only in most serious cases eg: death to either mother or child, incest, rape etc…
what concerns me is that this act includes minors (due to the “new” Age of Magority Act 2007 minors are now under 18 in South Africa).
Minors are “advised” to talk to a parent or guaridan about the abortion and procedure, but it is not necessary and the counsellors do not need permission from parents to perform abortions.
EVERYONE KNOWS… not only does abortion cause serious emotional scars but the abortion causes serious damage to your internal organs as well… womb etc. There could be serious complications due to the equipment they use to remove the fetus, as sometimes not everything is removed and causes hectic infections and sometimes leading to having the womb removed or leaving some women unable to have children again.
There are 2 methods generally used. The “suction” method usually cases this… they use a long metal rob, stick it up in there and stuck the fetus out like a vaccum. (so nasty) The other method (i’m not sure what it is called)they give you 2 pills… filled with hormones and these usually make you seriously ill, vomitting, diaorrea, violent cramps etc… the first pill is taken in front of the dr and then second pill is taken 2 days later at the dr office and the strong dose of hormones expel the fetus. Also a rather disgusting process… as young girls going through this usually dont know what to do with the remains of their “baby” as it usually is just a mass of cells or half formed and the fetus can expel itself anytime, anywhere. so you cant be sure how to prepare yourself… talk bout emtional scarring hey!!
in terms of the law… a legal subject only comes into being at birth and the requirements for a legal subject is that there must be complete seperation from the mother and it must be able to breath and live independently from the mother (there is no need for the imbelical cord to be cut)
If you are not a legal subject you are not the holder of rights or the bearer of duties. THEREFORE… you cannot state claim to anything. There are various methods which can be put in place such as nascitus fiction where the fetus is presumed alive but this is only in legal disputes. A fetus cannot be a legal subject as it cannot live independetly from the mother.
Then we have the conflicting rights in the Consititution… THE RIGHT TO LIFE… and… THE RIGHT TO CHOICE OF REPRODUCTION.
When it comes to abortion these 2 rights are in serious conflict. As most people believe that the right to life should have preferrance.
The things is… we all have the right to choice of reproduction, the manner in which we choose to repoduce, the amount of children we choose to have etc… so when it comes down to it women can do whatever they please with thier bodies… AS LEGALLY STATED.
I, personally, think that abortion should be leagl internationally but should be regulated very strictly!!!!! i think that health officials are to “sloppy” when it comes to abortion (and many other things). There should be a serious amount of counselling offered before and after, a full medical examination and a follow up examination. Abortion should also only be used in serious cases such as rape, incest, could cause death etc. IT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS A CONTRACEPTION… THAT IS WRONG ON SO MANY LEVELS… cause as i have stated previously the effect it has on your body could be disastrous and fatal.
just for the record i am studying law and practice as a paralegal so i’m always exposed to things like this. its sad how people misuse abortion.
I hope i have given you guys some food for thought…
Tee
No,
Unborn children have been detected with brain waves. They can feel, eat, and move around. Just because they are inside a womb, they are not alive?
When you look at it this way, it doesn’t matter if the child is wanted or not; it’s not for you to decide. There will still be societal problems with legalized abortion. The whole idea of the Aryan race was to control birth; how did that little idea benefit society?
Looking at a toddler or baby playing should be a joy, not a liability.
All I know is if I was growing up in my mother’s womb, and there was any doubt by my parents to keep going with me, I would remind them everyday how “alive” I am now, no thanks to them.
It really depends on when you consider life to have begun. Some people think that life begins at conception, some think that life begins at birth. Obviously, no one among us would dream of harming a newborn baby, which is probably the strongest reason we have for refusing to abort babies past a certain time. The human conscience has a problem with aborting babies after 3 or 4 months because they start to look human by that stage.
Theoretically, for months, human babies are just a little bundle of cells, going about doing their thing. You could argue that of course it’s alive, it moves every now and then, creates problems (I made my mum sick almost every morning for 8 out of the 9 months) but you could argue that viruses and bacteria that chill out all over us are equally living. Although the human body is comprised of about 100 trillion cells, only 10 trillion of which are ours. Considering most people have little problem with destroying bacteria (which makes up 90% of what we are), why should a small bundle of cells be any different?
In my opinion, it should be legal. If you consider the people most likely to get an abortion, it’s almost exclusively people who are unwilling, or unable to support a child, often because of age, and there are understandable moral issues for some people with adoption.
And as for the argument that destroying a potential life is as punishable a crime as destroying a real life? By that logic, every time a man masturbates, he should be punished for murder, for destroying lives (billions in fact) that could potentially exist, and I guarantee you, at least 50% of the population would vote against making that particular pasttime illegal.