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In November this year, the people of the United States will go to the polls to elect a new president. For the first time in history, one of the contenders is black. Obama has now won the support of the Democratic party and the lead up to the elections is looking to be fascinating. The whole world is watching to see what the Americans will do. The fact that the US might elect a black president this year leads us to our your view question – is the US ready for it? Have the racial troubles of the 60s now receded far enough in to the past for people to accept the idea? Please remember to attack points of view and not the people speaking. Ad hominem attacks are a signal of defeat in a debate.
Is the US Ready for a Black President?
My answer: Yes. I believe the majority of Americans are ready for a black president. I think the American love of politics and their desire to see integrity in the office means that they will vote for the best man for the job – regardless of race or gender – and I think that this year the election will prove that.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Yes. And i hope he wins!
August 28th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I hope so… or things have not progresses as far as they should have by now.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
What’s wrong with black???..
Competency, integrity, and your credibility is not measured by the color of your skin..
August 28th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Racist!.
Should I say,we’re Lucky coz were white and they’re not coz their black??
Where is equality?
August 28th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I didn’t think I would need to say it – but I will delete any racist comments.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
appie: who is racist? My response to the question suggested that Americans will vote based on integrity not skin color.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
yeah right jfrater..
I was just bothered “somebody’s” comment..
well, I think, it’s not a good idea blogging dirty comments here right?
this is for smart people not for uneducated ones..
August 28th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
appie: indeed – which is why I deleted his comment.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I definitely think that the majority of Americans, especially younger ones don’t even consider the color of his skin; we are ready for a black president. However, and I hate to say this, but I think he would have a higher than average chance at being assassinated. There are certain groups in this country that would definitely attempt it. It would take a long long time for that wound to heal. I try not to think about it…
August 28th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
paradoxo: let’s hope not – I think he has great potential.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
appie: okay – it is fine – I saw the comment and deleted it. Let’s move on now
August 28th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Sorry..
My fault..
I can’t recall his name..
I should have placed his name..
I’m not against black people..
I have lots of Black American friends…
I love Martin Luther King JR.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Speaking as a lifelong democrat i dont think Obama is qualified to be president. George Bush has just about ruined the chances for McCain to be elected president because he,s the one of the worst presidents in history and Americans are ready for a change. Im gonna do what the late George Carlin say,s im not gonna vote for anyone that way you cant blame me when they f@#k up i didn,t vote for him.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
I really hope so. But I do fear he will not make it the whole term, he will almost assuredly have several assassination attempts. In all probability before the election happens, but I do hope, I hope very much.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
To me, race has nothing to do with competence, but in all honesty, there are a lot of idiots out there. There are too many white supremacist nut-jobs in this world and if Obama is elected, I worry about what might happen. I think that the majority of Americans may be ready, but all it takes is one idiot.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Like comment 10, I believe the majority of younger Americans are ready for a black President. Sadly tho, there is a very powerful group that wont allow this to happen: Older male Republicans. Just watching some of the cable news shows alone is disgusting; from Neil Cavuto of Fox to Lou Dobbs of CNN, these “news men” have been disparaging Obamas every move. I am sure there will be either some very nasty personal attacks on Obama or some funny business in the voting. Hopefully, there will be enough support to overcome that.
Me: White male in his 30’s who will be voting Obama
August 28th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Yes, the US is ready for a black president. The only problem is that liberals aren’t ready for a conservative black president just as conservatives aren’t ready for a liberal black president. Party lines are much more divisive than race. Thomas Sowell would make a much better president than Obama. Obama’s not even facing issues with being (half) black or having a muslim-sounding name, he’s facing adversaries who question his judgement and ability to run the most powerful nation on the planet. It’s got nothing to do with race and he knows it. You might as well ask if America is ready for a female president or a one-armed president or a president in a wheelchair. We’re stuck in a rut of older white male presidents because A. it’s expensive to run for president so rich people tend to do it B. that’s what our politicians tend to look like. The political arena is open to one and all. It’s just like the sciences. Women aren’t highly represented because there aren’t a lot of women who go into the field. It’s only a matter of time before someone who looks different becomes our president, and naturally that person will be applauded and go down in history as the first “whatever” be it black guy or chick or jewish person. But I bet you whoever it is will be just another politician-they’ll just look different doing the job.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I think that “qualified” is a very subjective term. A lot of “qualified” and experienced candidates have made huge mistakes in foreign policy, the economy, their choice of staff, etc. Lincoln had very little experience but made smart decisions (the sorts of smart decisions one would have to make in order to go from being a state senator to presidential candidate in 6 years) and inspired people for generations to come with his speeches.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
And as far the assasination angle, any idea how many people want Bush dead?? I don’t think Obama would have any higher than average odds.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
JFrater ~ Can I ask why you think Obama would make such a great president? What have you been reading/hearing/watching?
August 28th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
i would love to say that America is ready, but I dont think they are.
Honestly, some red-neck would assasin him before he reaches the whitehouse… i would love to be proved wrong.
Alot of America is ready, but not ALL of America…
August 28th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
rushfan: I like him based upon the speeches I have heard him give. I don’t agree with all his politics, but I do like what he says generally.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
jfrater ~ will you be watching his highly-anticipated acceptance speech tonight?
August 28th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I believe that there are parts of this country that are not ready for there to be a black president and there are parts that are. Its interesting that I hear many older educated black people say that they don’t think that we are ready to have a black president yet. One woman I met during a hospital stay not too long ago who was a teacher said ” its only been forty years since they killed Dr King and I don’t believe things have changed enough that someone won’t kill Mr Obama too” and that echoes the sentiment of the others in the demographic I have spoken to.
I think more importantly that Obama is not ready to be president so it isn’t really a relevant discussion. For the record I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican and I would vote for the candidate that best represents my beliefs which is neither of the major party candidates this election.
In the two party system if neither candidate fits your views if you vote you’ve lost, so the only way to protest is to not vote which is what I will do this year just as I did in 2004,
August 28th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
YES, AMERICA IS READY–Just not O bama–Ineptness shouldn’t be the strong point for electing a president.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
rushfan: I will – though I didn’t know about it until mentioned it
August 28th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
In my opinion, it’s simply about the US being ready for a DIFFERENT kind of president. A non-white, non-senile, non-”let’s go to war forever”, non-awfully-Republican president.
And the answer is hopefully yes, FOR THE SAKE OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I will say America is ready, but I also want to mention that a lot of the Barack support is mainly hype..
It’s becoming a fad to like him and many people don’t even know what his platform is.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Yes we are. I don’t this THIS particular gentleman is the best candidate running this year. But I’m glad to see that we as a nation have come far enough to give him consideration. The same thinking goes for a woman president. Remember the men who’ve held this job were from a pretty narrow group,….even amongst white men. We’ve had only one Catholic president, only one bachelor, only one who didn’t graduate college, only one divorced and none whose surname originated from outside of Northwestern Europe.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
definitely, just not this huckster
August 28th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
“Portrayal Of Obama As Elitist Hailed As Step Forward For African Americans”
Another great report from the Onion.
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/portrayal_of_obama_as_elitist
August 28th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
“I think the American love of politics and their desire to see integrity in the office means that they will vote for the best man for the job.”
Seriously? You believe the American people (of whom I am one) vote for the “best man for the job”? I think most people vote for the person who speaks to the single issue they like and forget the rest. You’ll also have those who will vote for him just because he’s black which has been seen in areas where he received 99% of the black vote. Just sayin.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
I think it’s ridiculous that the question even has to be asked. Race shouldn’t have any relevance. Experience should. Obama has no experience or unique qualifications; I really don’t see what the big deal is about him.
Politicians are ALL douchebags. Each and every one of them. Douchebaggery sees no color.
On race, in case it DOES matter, here’s a snippet from an article by Dr. Jack Wheeler:
>He is half-white, which he
> rejects. The rest of him is mostly Arab, which he hides but
> is disclosed by his non-African Arabic surname and his
> Arabic first and middle names as a way to triply proclaim
> his Arabic parentage to people in Kenya . Only a small part
> of him is African Black from his Luo grandmother, which he
> pretends he is exclusively.
>
> What he isn’t, not a genetic drop of, is
> ‘African-American,’ the descendant of enslaved
> Africans brought to America chained in slave ships. He
> hasn’t a single ancestor who was a slave. Instead, his
> Arab ancestors were slave owners. Slave-trading was the main
> Arab business in East Africa for centuries until the British
> ended it.
>
> Let that sink in: Obama is not the descendant of slaves, he
> is the descendant of slave owners.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I just hope that if he loses everyone won’t cry “racist”, especially if he loses for legitimate reasons (as a Canadian though I’m too busy following our own politics to really know anything about his platform, I just hate when someone cries “racist!” or “sexist!” at everything)
August 28th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I’m Irish so the election doesn’t have any direct impact on me, but if I had the opportunity to vote in the US elections – Obama! Obama! Obama!
I think the majority of the US is probably ready for a black president. He’s a personable, intelligent, thoughtful man – am I just naive in thinking that his skin colour is trivial in comparison to those admirable traits?
One thing that worries me though is those Republican voters in the Bible belt. McCain still has a strong army of support behind him. Although I’ve never been to the US, I am aware that racism among the Bible belt is still a problem (correct me if I’m wrong).
As the US is the only superpower left in the world, the election impacts the rest of the world greatly. If Obama is elected, it will show great progression in the US society from the days of Rosa Parks. The rest of the world will notice and appreciate it.
Plus, he’s not a gun-toting war nut
August 28th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I would prefer we had a “Blacker” president. But ready or not here he comes. I will vote for him and hope he wins and that the legacy of the Bush’s is one of total shame, incompetence and stupidity
August 28th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Morgan Freeman has built the road
August 28th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
P.S. FYI – part of his caucasian side is from Moneygal, County Offaly in Ireland.
Just a random piece of info for ya!
August 28th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Jill W.
I understand what you’re saying, but you can’t expect people to really care that he is descended from slave owners. So are most people!
Slavery has been around forever and most every country has slavery in it’s past, so it’s highly unlikely that ANYBODY isn’t descended from slave owners.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Oh, and my opinion is YES.
Race doesn’t matter.
What I’m really hoping for is a president who is not Christian in my lifetime.
They don’t have to be Agnostic, Atheists or even Jews (like me). I just want to see that America can stop automatically distrusting anybody who isn’t Christian.
Don’t deny it, because Obama’s religion has been a major issue that people discuss.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
wow. never thought i’d say this… but i actually don’t have much to say.
i am not ready for a black president…or a white president… or a yellow, red, purple, orange or chartreuse president!
i am ready for a president who can begin to repair much of financial damage our country has sustained over the past 8 years… i make (practically) the same amount of money that i did back in 2005, but i am paying 2$ more a gallon in gas. milk costs over 3$ a gallon, and let’s just not go there.
my properties went into foreclosure, because i made bad judgment calls and thought i could turn them around quickly, but the bottom began to drop out of the real estate market by then. i have had 2 friends return from Iraq, one with a TBI and is now disabled, and he fights every month for a measly $1,250 to live off of!
we are still involved in a war that not only do many Americans oppose, but a great many don;’t even know why we are involved!
i am ready for a president, and administrations, who doesn’t think the answer to our energy crisis is to open off-shore drilling that has been banned by congress every year since the 1980’s…
i am ready for a president that understands that instead of being the global bully, we need to be the global educator, and lead by example…
and i’m ready for a president that stops pandering to big corporations and encourages the small business owners, who are just getting annihilated by such corporations as WalMart, VCA of America, and others.
since Billy Graham socially declared that to “Be a Christian & American” was synonymous with “voting Republican”, there are an untold multitude of backwater, un-educated, un-informed individuals in this country, who only take their awareness of politics or public events from the snippets on the nightly news, who would never desire to see anyone other than a white, American, Protestant male in the White House, that will vote for anyone Republican, so long as it is a white male who talks openly about his religion.
those people, i fear, outnumber those of us whom are more liberal, see beyond the immediate gains, and understand that it will take a helluva lot longer than 8 years to turn this country around. If Obama becomes president, i believe he will lay down a great foundation for other future presidents to build upon and repair all the economic damage, and national disgust many Americans (such as myself!) feel about the previous 8 years…
i have nothing more to say. really.
ringtailroxy
August 28th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
We’ll see…?
August 28th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
I would hope to think that in modern times now candidates should be based on policy rather then of superficial natures such as skin colour or networks… on the other hand there is no need for positive discrimination if he is unsuitable.
however in this case, i believe people are most definitely ready for a black president.. i also hope that this inspires people of different cultures and races to step up and try to help change the world knowing that no judgement will be made purely on race.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
I think most of America is, but most is probably still not enough.In the current situation, I would definately vote for Obama, although out of all the candidates he 3rd or 4th on my book.A better question would be if America was ready for a non-centrist president, like Paul, or Kucinics (probably spelled wrong).
August 28th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Hell yeah,America is ready for a black president!!! It’s time for change,man! On a serious note, the way Bush has been running the country these past eight years has put quite a damper on McCain’s run,him being a republican, but only time will tell. I was also rooting for Hillary for vice president,but oh well, Biden’s good to.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
I just found very hilarious image that kind of relates to this topic. Check it out it is very funny.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Why the hell should america care what race the president is, I just want someone to turn this country around Bush fucked it up.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Coming from the South, I’d like to say we are past “racial” issues, but I don’t think America is ready for a black president any more than America is ready for a woman president…we are too set in our ways. Although “change” sounds good to us in these time of economic hardship, I think it will boil down to race rather than issues.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
I believe most intelligent Americans are ready for a black president. I don’t care if your black, gay, or atheist, as long as you don’t push your social policies on me, and you make America a better place.
I don’t like Obama or McCain though.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Why is everyone so head over heels for Obama? because he promises hope and change? or because he’s black? This is complete bullshit. People always give me the typical reason why they’re voting for Obama and it’s either because “that’s what everyone else is doing” or because he has “hope and change”. It’s complete non-sense, as if no one is educated enough to draw their own conclusions about candidates than walking with the whole crowd off a cliff. I’m sick of hearing about this “hope and change”…it reminds me of the movie idiocracy where they watered the plants with brawndo(a sports drink) because it had electrolytes and that’s what plants crave, which of course is totally wrong…Why are you watering the plants with brawndo? “because it has electrolytes”…do you even know what electrolytes are? “yea, it’s what plants crave”…..i think i rest my case..
August 28th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Is the US Ready to stop asking ridiculously racist questions that distract the voter from truly important issues?
August 28th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Vote for Barr or Nader
August 28th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
i dont know. two party elections dont cut it for me. ultimately the path will go for who ever’s got the money and the gall to make it through to this point and those with enough political “got yo back” behind them, be it a blue gorilla with a swagger and wearing a 10gallon hat , riding a blindfolded ostrich , throwing out lollipops and ipods or someone with the voice, that is able to get across that “HOPE” tagline without it seeming like it was really created by Shepard Fairey, who’s made his mullah and street cred with his “OBEY” propaganda stlye poster grafitti..
Tell em what they wanna hear now.
it’s the time for high drama now. showtime!
the trail was like a recieving antenea.
” might need to adjust that one a tad to the right- or is it the left?”
“add some tin foil to that one there”
kiss the babies and give a golly handshake to the elders. eat a burger, play some pool, drink a beer with the regular shmo.
Stevie Wonder singin ole time faves with barack additions, while a bunch of little american flags wave around
god bless our country
the way the news plays it here is leaning on the pop side of obama.
the cool one
good luck Micky C!
The white guy on tee vee, talkin to the black woman on tee vee, “Its a different kinda obama and accent you’ll see and hear when he’s givin a speech in a southern black church.”
Al Gore talkin now to Obama fans. He gave his “go obama” bit–cheers expected places–, now he gives his “climate crisis” talk, and the good feeling of the crowd is trying to sober up.
but where’s the racism- hidden, erased or pushed back, as it can overshadow. The LA riots were just 15 years ago.thats not that long ago. and that was a pressure pot purculating for a while..for sure.
racism still exists in different ways worldwide, but the majority of voters here are not overt racists and the true hate mongers are like speckles of gore we wish not to look at straight in the face.
hypothetical “joke” here: what if Obama grows an afro in the white house…well, what would happen then?
Where’s the tough as nails jornalist that goes into the dark jungle of the mind of america and record the howl?
August 28th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Jerky – Conservatives don’t want what’s best for freedom and democracy.
Diogenes’ dummy, agreed 100%. I hate the two party system, it’s more about money than anything else.
August 28th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
ringtailroxy for president!
August 28th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
51. Shlufi:
I think is not an american who is asking, but you’re right.
People shall not vote Obama because a black president will make the country seem more advanced.
Unfortunetly, for many people in some places of the States seems that skin color is still an important issue.
August 28th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Diogenes’ dummy ~
thank you for the nomination, but i must decline. you see, i am certainly NOT qualified to run for presidency.
obviously the entire country has gone totally downhill since the Reagan era… a time of big spending and the Cold War. Then it was Saddam Hussein and the Gulf War. then it was Bin laden and the Iraq War… do i detect a trend?
now, I am well aware of Clinton’s part in the bombing of South Africa…. but i don’t believe it caused so vile an economic crisis as this war does today.
and whatever happened to the communal love of all americans? according to my grandfather, during WWII,things like War Bonds & Victory Gardens where the norm, and the american public eagerly made sacrifices so the soldiers had fresh food, supplies, and raw materials…nowadays, you can’t pry a teenage girl’s hands from her text phone, the general american attitude is “it’s not my problem” or “i don’t want to get involved” and now the “Green” movement is trendy, and i fear it is a fad, such as Rubik’s Cubes, Tomaguchi, Clear Sodas, and mainstream Alternative Rock!!!
no more. seems others LVers think i ramble…
rtr
p.s. concerning McCain: wasn’t he a prison of war, surviving atrocities, but so brain-washed by the military that he still thinks war is necessary for peace? that’s like wiping my ass before i take a shit…or saying you have to lie to be honest…
August 28th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
theres still lostsa food drives and the like, along with the whole “cellphone for soldiers”thing,but sure-trends CAN be evasive with the horrors at large, also CAN be a necessary release or coat of comfort, immeadiate reaction to the HYPE, like a big rock tossed in a pond…see i ramble too.
anyway- off the”Your View” at hand,in general -
community is truley at stake. agreed.
That Frost poem:
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall, /That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it, / And spills the upper boulders in the sun, /And makes gaps even two can pass abreast. / The work of hunters is another thing: /I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone, / But they would have the rabbit out of hiding, / To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean, /No one has seen them made or heard them made, / But at spring mending-time we find them there. /I let my neighbor know beyond the hill; /And on a day we meet to walk the line /And set the wall between us once again. /We keep the wall between us as we go. /To each the boulders that have fallen to each. /And some are loaves and some so nearly balls /We have to use a spell to make them balance:
‘Stay where you are until our backs are turned!’
We wear our fingers rough with handling them. /Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard. /My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors’.
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder / If I could put a notion in his head:
‘Why do they make good neighbors? Isn’t it / Where there are cows? /But here there are no cows. /Before I built a wall I’d ask to know /What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence. /Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That wants it down.’ I could say ‘Elves’ to him, /But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather
He said it for himself. I see him there /Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed. /He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees. /He will not go behind his father’s saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well /He says again,
“Good fences make good neighbors.”
August 28th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
We’re not ready for any one who isin’t going to actually do what they say. Too bad Obama can’t actually tell us what he will ‘change’. Whoever will be voted in, it won’t matter, my life will pretty much stay the same. So, I don’t care if we had a black jewish midget as a president, because I’ll still be doing the same things in the same exact way.
August 28th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
already had lots of black presidents:
24
Fifth Element
Idiocracy
etc.
August 28th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
this is going to be a major issue, just not for the reason that most of us think. in the south carolina primary, obama received 78% of the black vote. this is silly. i fear he will get elected simply BECAUSE he is black.
and then as mentioned above, i fear that if he loses, it will lead to greater race relation problems because of the perceived presence of racism that kept him from getting elected.
as far as the two candidates go, obviously there are serious flaws with both of the major party options. however, i don’t worry about homeland security with mccain in the oval office. i worry that someone will try to test obama the way they did bush. despite his many shortcomings, we have not been attacked since 9/11 under his watch.
August 28th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Yes. I think that we are way past this issue, or at least we should be. Black, white, yellow or red… doesn’t matter, as long as it gets better than it is now. If he actually does what he promises, it might actually propel the country to become more open-minded. Wouldn’t that be great? Will there ever be a day that America will just see people, and not color?
August 28th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
I am so glad i saw this title. I just watched his speech on tv. I think the US is ready for anyone who is willing to make the country a better place for the most of the people. I am pretty sure that weve come far enough as a whole to not really have to just see a persons skin color and not hear what they have to say. I hope so, at least. Besides, his ideas seem very good.
August 28th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Some people are saying that Obama might be the anti-christ…
Not me!! I just heard it around the office..
August 28th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
its simple. NO! definitely not ready, i’m not saying i’m not ready, i like barack.. a lot……. i just reaaally think he’ll get shot, the blacks will go nuts and riot like rodney king x100
August 28th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Is he a white man with a black father, or a black man with a white mother? Im confused.
Not really. Playing Devil’s advocate.
August 28th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
I agree that people will try to assasinate (KILL) him. People get crazy mad/ angry. Do I think this will continue? Yes.
Until the “job” is done. He will forever be in danger
August 28th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Yes, Americans are ready for a Black president, and I’m voting for him because of his economic policies (specifically including his cuts to middle class income tax and the rollback of tax breaks to large corporations that have benefitted from outsourcing) and his foreign policies (including the complete banning of torture and “harsh interrogation, a time table for getting out of Iraq, returning to the international stage as a sane player that knows how to negotiate rather than bluster and intimidate), and his social positions (including respecting the rights of all Americans to equal pay for equal work, immigration laws that cope with both security and societal needs, and respect for the role of family in building community).
Yeah, the guy from Hawaii with the funny name is a pretty decent candidate.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
I have to say…. if they are not, then they should have voted against him. If anybody complains after he is elected, it is point-and-laugh time.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Is America ready for a black president? Yes and no. Some are and some aren’t. The people who aren’t ready won’t vote for him, and come November we’ll see whether or not that’s the majority.
I live in the so called birthplace of the Republican Party, or at least one of 40. I’ve met more than a few people who are registering to vote so “this guy” isn’t in office… regardless of whether or not they can cite any of his policies. It’s certainly disheartening. I see and hear subtle and casual racism everyday… I’m sure many people are going to also vote for him to see some social attitude change.
It’s tough. No matter what way the election pans out, for most people he’ll either be president because he’s black or lose because he’s black. What a terrible way to write off such a historical precedent.
It’s amazing that race is still an issue, and alarming that it’s a deciding factor for some Americans.
Personally and obviously, race doesn’t matter. Hopefully change is attractive enough of a message to transcend that.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
someone equivocated that, in america, voting for a black man would be like voting for a woman or someone in a wheelchair.
I’m just pointing out that one of our greatest presidents had a wheelchair.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
I’d have no problem with a black president but I honestly just think McCain will be a better president than Obama. Im voting for McCain but I would not be too disappointed if Obama won. I just hope the Secret Service stays on top of its game because, sadly, there still are some hardcore racists around.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
@ Amanda
Just because someone doesn’t vote for Obama doesn’t mean they would not accept a black man as a president. If Obama doesn’t win this election it will not be because he is black, it will simply be because people think McCain is more qualified. Sure, Obama might have a few votes go the other way because of his skin color, but McCain will lose just as many because he’s viewed as an “Old man.”
August 28th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Vera, (66),
“Is he a white man with a black father, or a black man with a white mother? Im confused.
Not really. Playing Devil’s advocate.”
A good point.
Being an outsider, this definition of “black” for him has puzzled me. He has half African blood. If he had a quarter, would he still be “black”? An eighth? A sixteenth? At what point of “dilution” does a person cease to be black? Or does it depend on the colour his genes have left his skin, regardless of any other factor? In that case is there a colour chart to indicate? (Might a person even become black for a short while in summer after a good long exposure on the beach?) Is there not a term coloured? Or is there some problem with that? Clearly many or most of the terms for people of mixed race may tend to be offensive except in places such as Brazil or the Caribbean, where the mixtures are so total and merge so completely from one extreme to the other that segregation for the point of racism or insult comes close to pointless. Or, rather sinisterly, does it depend who is doing the defining? Or has Obama proudly announced himself as black. I’m simply curious to know.
Or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick altogether and there is some other factor involved?
August 28th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
you shouldn’t be viewing someone by the color of their skin in the first place….
August 28th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
I seriously believe that if Obama was white, he would not even be the democratic candidate. Him being black is basically a GIANT symbol for change…without it he is quite boring.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
True. If we were all blind our world would be different, but not necessarily better. Unfortunately speeches can and do rouse rabble and promises are broken.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
77 refers to 75.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Are we really supposed to give a rat’s hoo-haa about what color the guy is? Why should that matter? Do people really need to validate their enlightenment by voting for a dude who’s melanin content is higher than their own? That’s it, the only reason?
I’ve been a Republican since I entered the age to vote and I think there is a lot to admire about Obama, but I really don’t buy into all of this bullshit about the guy. It’s as if the Democrats venerate the Jesus rays the guy gives off. The dude can talk all touchy feely he wants, a specialty of liberals everywhere. But if and when he gets elected, his ass is on the line. You can blather on and on about hope and change, but when you actually have to make those decisions, hope and change translates into tax and spend.
And as you may have guessed I’m not exactly in love with McCain either. He ain’t a wet dream for Reagan Republicans. But frankly, I don’t give a shit what color he is either, race, color whatever, it doesn’t enter into the equation for me. All I want to know is if the guy can make tough decisions, clean up some of the messes George has made and not screw things up in Iraq so that we can all get on with our goddamn lives.
I look at Obama the same way I look at a quarterback who was drafted in the first round. Sure, he’s got some potential, and he can talk about how he’s going to change the franchise all he wants. Nobody’s going to be able to tell if he’s any good until his ass is on the line. You can’t apply that to McCain, he’s got experience making tough and unpopular decisions.
For that I’m willing to overlook his race and his weird pterodactyl arms.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
or is it Raptor arms, I mean what is that?
August 28th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Obama:
Hope, Change, White Guilt
August 28th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Condoleezza vs Hillary would have been interesting.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
A black President? Yes. This particular one? No.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
59. Lana
So you basicly don’t give a f*** about anybody but yourself.
Sad.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
First I would like to say that I think the racist comments should be left in. It would be a good example of the type of ignorance and backwards thinking that we are talking about here. I don’t think he will be easily assassinated by some dumb methed-up redneck. The secret service is much to good at their job these days for that to happen. It could, however, be done by some highly motivated groups with some kind of military training. If enough people with the will and means wants someone dead bad enough I don’t think it can be stop as long as the person is in the public eye and not in hiding. I really don’t think that is going to happen though. I think what is different in america today than 40 years ago is that most intelligent people have come to except equality as a God given right.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:02 am
I hope he wins, it would be interesting to see what he does with your country, however, if he doesnt, sent him over to South Africa, Well be more then happy to have him.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:08 am
What a ridiculous question. I can’t believe race is still an issue – Go Obama!
August 29th, 2008 at 2:41 am
In America i know it’s not compulsary to votebut judging by some of the comments, if you don’t vote at all, then i believe you have no right to complain about the politics.
If you don’t vote there’s no point going on about how crap a president is because you didn’t even take part.
This isn’t a question about skin colour, but more so who would you prefer McCain or Obama.
may the best man win, and thats Obama
August 29th, 2008 at 3:33 am
I’m not American but I’m curious – how prominent is racism in the US?
August 29th, 2008 at 4:16 am
Well, I’m voting for him and I’m white.
This might make me seem naive, but I think the race issue is exaggerated (perhaps mostly by the republicans) Maybe I’m just hoping that the race issue is only as bad as the Kennedy is catholic issue from 1960. My mother told me that an anti-catholic relative(an in-law) said “Kennedy will let the Pope run the country” and even was glad JFK was assassinated. Those people were a minority, and Kennedy was elected.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:34 am
That is a really racist question. You should be locked up.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:46 am
The greatest president in the world was black – Nelson Mandela, and he was president at a time when people though war would break out between black and whites, apartheid was over for 5 year when he was president, not 45 like the US (they also sort of had apartheid in the 60’s). Anyway, my point being, if he is a great leader, people will love him for that, a poll in south africa the other day stated that about 80% of white people saw Mandela as a great president, and younger white kids (who don’t know what went on in apartheid) absolutely love Mandela. So if Obama is great at what he does, the people will love him for that
August 29th, 2008 at 4:59 am
I believe that a black man or woman with sufficient qualifications can be elected in America. However, if John McCain wins in November that does not necessarily mean that America is not ready for a black president – it just means that it is not ready for Barak Obama, irregardless of whether he is black or white.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:20 am
Well you better be.
There is a huge danger when any party becomes entrenched. Republicans have been in power for 16 years (?), their cronies are in all key positions of power, they act with impunity; Because they can. There is no-one with the necessary clout to stop them. If you want a “fer instance” you can look to the duplicity used against their own players; the lying to and manipulation of both Colin Powell and Condie Rice on the way to war.
We had the same problem after 12 years of Liberal rule here in Canada. Huge scandals and corruption; simply because there was no one to stop them, all the key positions in place to prevent these kinds of excesses were manned by Liberals who’s loyalty to the party and interest in maintaining power were their prime motivations.
New Zealand is having the same problem, their cabinet is about to be dissolved (hopefully eh Jamie?) after years and years of Labour rule. Same problem, all the key players are loyal party followers and their main interest is keeping their cronies in power. Even their speaker of the house is obviously biased. (Thanks to Jayfray for enlightening me)
Absolute power does in fact corrupt absolutely. Black or yellow or green best not be the issue. ‘Tis time for change and the rest of the world is watching.
I believe that keeping the Bush faction in power would be a tragedy of epic proportions and further fuel for the anti-American contingent. You will be doing their recruitment for them.
For all you American voters out there, please watch this before you go to the polls.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/
August 29th, 2008 at 5:34 am
Yes we are, but not him. BO is a liar and a racist [see his statements about his grandmother and other statements from his books]. Certainly someone like JC Watts or Condi Rice would make great presidents. Obama will not. But, that has nothing to do with the fact that he is half black.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:35 am
Drogo #90 – Republicans are exaggerating the race issue? That’s rich. Were you asleep when Geraldine Ferraro said he wouldn’t be where he was if he wasn’t black?
I haven’t heard that kind of crap from McCain.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:40 am
I can’t speak for everyone, but I am ready. I strongly support Obama, even though I have somewhat subdued feelings towards him compared to many people. I don’t see him as a messiah, simply a man with a bit more integrity and intelligence than his opponent. He’s still a politician at heart, and my only real expectation is that he will do what is in his own best interest. Luckily, his best interest is a fairly close parallel to mine.
I’m not expecting a miracle. I know the economy will not recover overnight, I know our troops won’t be home on Jan. 21, and I know gasoline will not magically drop to $1/gallon again. I will be perfectly happy with the following:
1) Provide a timetable and solid list of objectives for ending the war in Iraq. Bringing the troops home immediately is no more viable a solution than leaving them there indefinitely, and “get the bad guys” is not an effective military strategy.
2) Try to restore the Constitution. I know Bush has destroyed it almost beyond recognition, but do your best to put it back together again. A good start would be to completely void the “Patriot Act” and to make warrantless wiretaps illegal again.
3) Put serious effort into finding alternative energy sources. I know Obama is from the midwest and ethanol is a tempting option, but I do not consider using valuable food as fuel as a valid idea. We’re already seeing the results of thinning the corn supply…now we get to pay $4/gallon of both gasoline AND milk.
If Obama can do these things in his first term, I will back him for as long as he remains in politics. If he can’t or doesn’t at least attempt them, he will be just another politician in my book.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:43 am
Tsiamon ~ FDR was indeed in a wheelchair, but he didn’t run for office in a wheelchair and he was careful not to appear in public in a wheelchair, back in those days your life was easier to keep private.
Mom424 ~ President Bush was duely elected *twice* by the American people. And why do people think the Democrates are going to save America from the big bad Republicans? Guess what? They’re even worse! You can keep your socialized medicine in Canada, thank you. Some of us want less government, not more.
Also, there are three branches of government. The president is not the sole leader of our country. And while I’m ranting, if dems are so superior, why didn’t Clinton/Gore solve more problems? So-called climate change? Dependence on oil? Terrorism? Poverty? They’re all talk. Every last one of them, whatever color they are.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:44 am
I dont live in America, but i think that a black president wold be one of the biggest happenings in America, ever. about 300 years ago, the only thing blacks were capable of doing in america was physical labour, under terrible working conditions, along with being beaten by white men. Now i say this with 100% certainty, BARACK OBAMA will win the 2008 presidential election.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:44 am
#57 Ringtailroxy
“now, I am well aware of Clinton’s part in the bombing of South Africa”
Do tell…
August 29th, 2008 at 5:55 am
rushfan – Clinton didn’t solve more problems because he was banging the help in the hallway and the oval office and then lying his ass off about it. I’m not W’s biggest fan, but can you imagine where we’d be if Gore had his way in Florida? I’ve seen cardboard cutouts that were smarter than that hypocrite douchenozzle.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:56 am
yes, i definitely think so, but for me it’s about a change in leadership and direction for america rather than skin color. race/ethnicity was never a factor for me. unfortunately, for some in my area (michigan, usa) it is. i have seen quite a few “crush osama obama and chelsea’s mama” bumper stickers and even a church sign on my way to work which read “obama. osama. brothers?” the “osama” thing seems to be the main point of these people here, or as my zealot neighbors constantly remind me: “—-his middle name IS hussein, you know!” prejudice like that just disgusts me. i personally admire obama and i think he has the potential to start america back on the path to economic stability and to restore our image as a responsible and respectable nation in the eyes of the world.
that said, this november i will rock out with my barack out!
August 29th, 2008 at 6:16 am
I’m just hoping that the US get a GOOD President no matter what colour or sex or their inclination may be.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:16 am
bucslim:
You HONESTLY don’t think we would have been better off with Gore over Bush the last 8 years? HONESTLY?
Come on pal. This, again, is what drove me away from conservatism, as I’d previously been driven from liberalism–the mendacity. You always make a big deal about being disgusted, to some degree, with both ideologies and parties, and thus implying that there is some level of honesty in copping this attitude. But any fool can see that 8 years of Gore would certainly have been no worse, and almost certainly a great deal better, than what we’ve had under Bush, quite likely the worse president we’ve had since Warren Harding’s administration. Gore dumb? Please. He’s been wooden, and unappealing, and nondescript at times… but he’s never been dumb.
Anyway, YES, America is ready for a black president. And my sense is that we’ll have one come November.
But what I applaud is that we’ll be back to having an intelligent, capable, visionary leader in the white house (if Obama wins) which is what we have NOT had the last 8 years, and would certainly NOT have if McCain won. Again, all this bullshit about Obama “not being experienced” and so on, is just that—bullshit. We’re in greater danger with an incapable, tempermental, addle-minded McCain minding our “security” than a man with the judgement and character that Obama clearly has.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:19 am
oh and by the way, please… no dragging me into drawn-out debates. It’s the start of the semester here at the Uni, and I’m up to my neck in students, paperwork, classes, meetings, seminars, orientations, get-togethers at the Dean’s place, impromptu faculty discussions and god knows what else.
So please just step aside, acknowledge my correctness in all things, and say, “yes Randall, sir.”
August 29th, 2008 at 6:21 am
Yes the US is ready for a black,white,yellow,brown President.The color of skin should not matter nor affect our decision.However, I don’t think that we are ready for Barak Obama.He wants to make everything better for those who are already wealthy and powerful,but what about the rest of us? Who will stand up for us if not our own apposed Leader.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:21 am
oh and by the way, please… no dragging me into drawn-out debates
Randall – deal. But, in return, we expect a full descriptive report on this year’s intake of co-eds
August 29th, 2008 at 6:21 am
I think that the whole of Europe and maybe the aussies and kiwis too are much more enthusiast about Obama than Americans. Take a poll in Europe and he”ll win it by a landslide. Look at the turn out in Berlin. But then in Europe apart from the Nationalist (racist)parties and populists (who speak only in oneliners, but don’t have no solution) everybody ( even the most conservatives) are moving to the left (that’s more liberal for americans).
Would be difficult in my believe to sell right wing politics over here. Hit first, ask questions later is how Bush is seen here I think. Someone who promises that this will change gets lots of credit. And then somehow there is the JFK angle, lots of people see hin as the new Kennedy.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Rushfan: You are missing my point. Regardless of my personal politics ( I voted Conservative in the last 2 elections by the way ), it is dangerous to have the same party in power for an extended period of time. They can do what they want because no-one will stop them.
Did you know that Bush set up a separate intelligence operation, controlled directly by the White House, when the CIA and Military Intelligence would not give him the information he WANTED to justify going to war? Would that have been possible had he been a first term Republican?
By the way, your tone sucks. Lighten up, you’re appearing nasty.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Bucslim ~ Agreed. I literally thought “thank god Gore isn’t president” on 9/11.
Oh, and, No, sir, Randall. Enjoy your life in the liberal world of academia.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:32 am
Mom, I went back and reread your original post. Bush was in office for 8 years, before him clinton for 8. The Congress was Republican for a long time, but really only able to accomplish welfare reform on Clinton’s watch. Our gov. goes into gridlock quite often. My point was that it’s all the same shit no matter who’s “in power.” There are a few people trying desperately to cut the pork and protect the environment and focus on national security, but the vast majority are power hungry fucknuts. And do some serious research into the intelligence used to justify the war and you’ll find more countries than just the US had faulty intel. Do you really believe Bush set up a blah blah blah CIA blah blah, what am I saying, of course you do. Oh, and not trying to be nasty, just concerned my nation is going to be swayed into electing the guy who wants to control my thermosdat and take my SUV away.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:37 am
Alright Randall, I’ll bite this one time. Yes I do believe he’s dumb. Dumber than Bush, debatable. Probably no worse off than we are now, ok I accept, begrudgingly.
You can’t deny he’s a hypocrite though, that’s a stone cold fact. Pushing off this suspect idea that we’re headed towards a climate induced doomsday and demanding that we all change our attitudes and lifestyles about energy while burning enough jet fuel to light up the countries he flies to, spreading his weak gospel. And the cherry on top is energy bills to heat, cool and electrify his personal home that top $30,000. He wants you to change, and he’ll fly anywhere to tell you to do it. Now that, my esteemed friend, is what I call dumb. And it’s also at the very heart of liberalism. That sort of smug, ‘higher ground’ bullshit that they all demand you to change but have no intention of doing it themselves.
Just keep telling yourself Obama will cure all your problems pal. He’s gonna buy us all a Coke and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. Just remember one thing, the Beatles sang All You Need is Love, . . . then they broke up because they were ready to kill each other.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:41 am
You would think it would be easy to win against McCain considering the he is not even eligible. He was born in Panama which immediately disqualifies him.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:47 am
BTW Randall I admit to likening Gore to the SNL parody of him. “We’re going to put that money in a laawk baawcks”
August 29th, 2008 at 6:48 am
Anyone voting for race over issues doesn’t deserve to vote.
That said, I think we’re ready for a black/woman/gay/insert minority here/ president as long as he or she is competant and not only being voting in because they are an anomoly.
As a side note, LV seems to be made up of educated youngish men and women. Please go vote in November. It really does make a difference.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:51 am
McCain announces his VP today. I hope he’s a good one. Or maybe one that has some of the same stances on issues.
Obama would have been wise to take a page from that book….
August 29th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Nice try, Zylen. So do you want to disqualify all kids born on military bases outside of the states?
August 29th, 2008 at 6:57 am
The simple fact is that we do need change. I don’t hold Bush 100% responsible for the current situation in America, but I do feel he is one of the key reasons things are the way they are.
Bush did not cause all of our problems. The people he appointed to positions of power (whether by choice or obligation) did most of that for him. When Bush decides to do something and people tell him it is a bad idea, he just digs in harder. This would not be a problem if we were only contending with a stubborn president, but he surrounded himself with “yes men” and puppet masters. Our situation with Iraq is the result of having multiple factions with multiple goals all competing for the ear of the man with the authority.
In my opinion, we’d be much better off if Gore or Kerry had been elected instead. Yes both would bring a whole new set of problems to the table, but they would not have the near totalitarian authority Bush has built for himself. I am not saying this as a dem, as I don’t make my decisions based on party.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Ha!!! You’re funny Mr. Mojo!
August 29th, 2008 at 7:15 am
Rushfan…rules are rules. You must be a natural born citizen to be President. There are good reasons for that stipulation which should not be dismissed just because someone was born on a military base outside of the U.S.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:16 am
bucslim, (112),
“Pushing off this suspect idea that we’re headed towards a climate induced doomsday and demanding that we all change our attitudes and lifestyles about energy while burning enough jet fuel to light up the countries he flies to, spreading his weak gospel. And the cherry on top is energy bills to heat, cool and electrify his personal home that top $30,000. He wants you to change, and he’ll fly anywhere to tell you to do it. Now that, my esteemed friend, is what I call dumb. And it’s also at the very heart of liberalism. That sort of smug, ‘higher ground’ bullshit that they all demand you to change but have no intention of doing it themselves.
Oh, it’s real, pal, it’s real. Forget politicians who lie and manipulate either because they enjoy it, or no one will vote for them if they tell the truth (fact). Try asking a hundred or a thousand of the world’s most respected relevant scientists and see how many deny man-driven climate change. It’s their study, my friend, not politican’s. Like you get a pilot to fly a plane, or a surgeon to operate on you, not a politician.
And yes, we have the same sort of save-the-planet book-writing mouth-shooting heroes down here who live like Lord Muck. That doesn’t make me believe climate change is bollox, I know it isn’t from my own work. It makes me despair.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:29 am
P.S.
It will be interesting to see whether, how and how much the issue called *global warming* figures in you presidential election. Perhaps it is there, but I’m not myself aware of significant groundswell interest from the voters.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:31 am
bucslim:
“Just keep telling yourself Obama will cure all your problems pal.”
yeah, okay buddy. You can keep trying to dismiss people’s enthusiasm over him thusly… but it won’t work.
It’s particularly insulting to MOI, as you know very well I am no mindless follower. I don’t believe for a moment that “Obama will cure all my problems” or all OUR problems or anything of the kind. I think you know this very well. I, and others, have logical and quite strong reasons for supporting Obama.
out of time. Hopefully will check in later.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Anon – sorry, you’re just not going to prove that to me. I spent quite a bit of my time arguing this in the ‘your view’ question on global warming.
But I do love the usage of the word bollox.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:32 am
kiwiboi:
“Randall – deal. But, in return, we expect a full descriptive report on this year’s intake of co-eds”
You GOT it, my friend.
(so, so many hotties… dear god I love my job).
August 29th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Anon ~ There is actually quite a bit of legitimate debate about the science of “global warming.”
“NASA now begrudgingly confirms that the hottest year on record in the continental 48 was not 1998, as previously believed, but 1934, and that six of the 10 hottest years since 1880 antedate 1954. Data from 3,000 scientific robots in the world’s oceans show there has been slight cooling in the past five years, never mind that “80% to 90% of global warming involves heating up ocean waters,” according to a report by NPR’s Richard Harris.”
August 29th, 2008 at 7:42 am
The question now becomes, is America ready for a WOMAN VICE-PRESIDENT??? McCain picked Sarah Palin, Alaska’s governor.
Sorry, I’m excited.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:10 am
frankly I’m not sure if the USA is ready for barack (or a black president) but the rest of the world sure is. And it’s gotten to the point where it doesn’t even MATTER, mccain is such a screw up that you HAVE to take the alternative…at least the alternative is good for once though…
August 29th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I think we ARE ready. I worry a small bit him possibly being assassinated by some crazy NRA-KKK nutjob, but you run those risks no matter who is elected. We’ve had all white males as President in the past, and some of THEM got assassinated, did they not?
I support Obama and I will be dancing into the polls in November to cast my vote for him. He is well spoken, intelligent, and when I watch his speeches, I BELIEVE what he is saying. I’m usually very cynical when it comes to politicians. McCain just seems slimy and mean to me. Not just because he’s old, and not just because he’s a Republican. I like Reagan even if I was a baby when he was in office, from seeing him on TV and stuff when I was older, and reading about him.
I know Obama can’t do EVERYTHING he is promising, I’m not that naive to blindly believe. (Pardon the rhyme, lol…) However, at least when I think about a future with him as President, I see it as a possibility.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:35 am
IN 88
“In America i know it’s not compulsary to votebut judging by some of the comments, if you don’t vote at all, then i believe you have no right to complain about the politics.
If you don’t vote there’s no point going on about how crap a president is because you didn’t even take part.”
I disagree entirely, not voting can be a form of protest and if I opt to not vote because neither option represents what I believe than I still have every right to complain that the person elected is doing a horrible job because I was not even given a choice to my liking. That is called Freedom of Speech and until it is taken away I have every right to use it as I see fit.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:53 am
rushfan: I, for one, am ready for a woman VP- especially this one. Have you seen her? She’s totally hot. I would definitely give her an additional 5 kids.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Obama must NOT lose.
If he loses, that means another man will win, a terrible, archconservative bastard that is Cain.
If Obama loses I won’t move to the USA as planned, because a dark future will await you.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Dread Pirate:
I beg to differ
While I doubt a different party will ever get elected, there are more than two options. Additionally, there is never going to be a “perfect” candidate for you or anyone else. Some things in parties are direct contrasts of each other. (conservative values include pro- death penalty AND pro-life, for example)
If you don’t have an opinion to vote, you shouldn’t have an opinion when things go wrong.
If you have a young child and give it no rules, isn’t it hypocritical to yell at that child when it does something wrong? Same thing.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Color does not come into play for me. I was raised to treat all people the same, but Senator Obama is not the one for my presidential office. I can’t vote for him at all. Sorry, I have to have a firm belief that he is capable and that he is what this country needs and I just don’t. Were there a Colin Powell sitting as a candidate, I’d vote for him in a millisecond. I admire him tremendously. Anyway, do I think America is ready, well some would say yes, some would say no, but I can only speak for me and I say yes. Just not Senator Obama, in my opinion.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Well, there you are, all you good folks in the voting line. The McCain chips are down (via my Chilean on-line newspaper). If he gets picked, you’ll be a cardio-vascular accident away from Palin as Presient. And that’s Sarah, not Michael, by the way.
Hope you’re ready for that.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:32 am
This election, kind of like the last elections, I wasn’t really too keen on the presidents to be swayed to vote one way or the other.
Honestly I really hope that Hilary doesn’t win, and not because she’s a female, but because she contradicts herself way to much .
if obama wasn’t black would there be that much controversy, probably not. I really don’t care if he was black or white, if he can do a good job as our president. Im pretty sure most anyone is going to be better than george bush jr.
People at this day and age.. really really need to get over the skin color issues. its not a different race, its a differnt type of race. the race being human. There are many different types of human, but in the end.. we are all still human.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Uh, Mike, you need to crush some tinfoil on those rabbit ears around your brain pal. McCain isn’t ‘archconservative.’ Just ask Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter.
Jeez, typical liberal hysteria.
And Anon, I’d like to remind you that if Obama wins, we’re also a cardiovascular event away from one of the biggest pantloads in the senate.
Wanderer – not sure if you’ve picked up a paper recently, but Hilary probably isn’t going to win now since she lost the nomination.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:49 am
F*ck that! We need Homer Jay Simpson in the White House! Hahahah
August 29th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Rushfan: Certainly hope if McCain gets into office he doesn’t die. How old is he? How much political experience does Palin have? How much international experience? Lots, I forgot she is a former Miss Alaska. Rather ironic that the same qualities (lack of experience etc.) are going to be used to justify Palin as McCain’s running-mate as were and are being used as a weapon against Obama.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:01 am
O….kay. Last night Obama makes one of the most stirring and powerful political speeches of….oh, say the last 30 years at least…. once again indicating, by the forcefulness and clear specifics (NOTE: *SPECIFICS*) of said speech that he’s got the character, wisdom, judgement and strength to be president…
…and then today McCain names, as his VP choice… some nondescript (albeit sweet-looking) and *utterly* inexperienced MILF?
Uh huh.
o…. kay.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:01 am
120. Zylen: Do you think they hadn’t considered that before? Military bases are technically American soil, so if you’re born on a base, you are born not in America but on American soil. He’s American, nice try.
To answer the question: not entirely. I can’t pretend to have my fingers on the pulse of America, but most people I talk to are open-minded enough about race to vote for the party or the best candidate. There are many, many people, however, I do *not* talk to. Those are the people I worry about.
I am voting for Obama. I don’t believe magic rainbows and the repopulation of the American Bald Eagle will come of his presidency, but damn, great choice with Biden. That’s what won me over.
Clever choice on VP, McCain, clever choice. You sly white devil, you.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:14 am
bucslim, (137),
“And Anon, I’d like to remind you that if Obama wins, we’re also a cardiovascular event away from one of the biggest pantloads in the senate.”
What are the insurance risk stats for that then, at his age? Don’t you mean an assassination event? In which case you could blame your extreme rednecks for any pantload of shite you and the rest of us are lumbered with.
Or are they a good reason for not *risking* Obama?
August 29th, 2008 at 10:29 am
i say yes. his skin color doesnt make a difference. hes a good candidate(sp?). but i think its a good (possible) change out of routine
August 29th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Randall: I am in agreement. Haven’t heard such a stirring speech since Kennedy. Thanks to Beany for providing me the webcast last night.
My fingers are crossed.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:59 am
As a Canadian i think that America is ready for a black president for the most part. i think that certain areas such as the deep south there will be more issues with it but overall i think Americans are ready. However, having said this i would be shocked if there wasn’t an attempt on his life. Looking back in time Presidents with more open views (for the time they held office) didn’t fare very well i.e. Lincoln and Kennedy but we can’t give up hope. GO OBAMA!
August 29th, 2008 at 11:11 am
As an outsider, with all the advantages and limitations of that perspective, just a quick look in on this new Sarah Palin situation. Without wishing to judge or blame her personally in any way, it looks as though there might have been a tactic to pick up the loose Hillary votes by her choice. I.e., the McCain votes are settled, the Obaba votes are settled. The Clinton votes are up for grabs and will probably make the difference.
If, I’m right, and it may well not be the case I freely admit, is that the basis you Americans want a stand-in president chosen from? I will state that I imagine we in the rest of the world don’t need that and would find it deeply disturbing.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Wow, these kinds of things are popping up all over the place. I think that yes, America is ready for Obama and would have been ready for a woman too if a better one had been offered. I guess I’m just not sure what all the hub-bub is about. He’s a politician just like any other. I mean, I guess there’s novelty value to some based on superficial appearance and due to that he can appeal to minority demographics that may have been previously overlooked/unreachable by other politicans. I just don’t understand why people are making such a big deal about it. If he gets elected time will tell if he makes a good president or not. He promises to bring change to the white house and unite the people for the greater good of the country. If he is elected and is able to keep his word and make good on all those promises (surely a feat for any politician, lol), then that would be a very good thing for our country indeed.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:51 am
We’ll soon find out? Truth be told, given the stark contrast between the two candidates, their relative intelligence, health, vitality, their allegiance or opposition to failed Bush policies, and especially the competence of their counsel, their wives and running mates. If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Why shouldn’t we be? (although I do know some people in the south that still think they won the Civil War) We’re all about the freedom to do pretty much whatever we want in accordance to the law, and as far as I know Mr. Obama running for president isn’t against the law. So yes we are ready.
On a side note I personally do not like the term “African-American”, he was born in The United States of America, therefore he is an AMERICAN.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
And for those of you who may be undecided come voting time. When in doubt vote Nader! (I don’t know if he’s running this year but I think it’s a funny little saying.)
August 29th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
This list makes me sad. =( Your skin color, gender, speaking ability, etc. have NOTHING to do with your actions in office.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
t_man, agree about African-American, it’s too long. When I was a lad writing term papers for social studies, we used the word Negro, ugh! Black is best.
Disagree about voting for Nader, that’s just splitting your vote between the two viable candidates.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
anon:
Yes, clearly it’s a cheap tactic, on McCain’s part, to pick up disgruntled Hillary voters. But I’ve said all along–if those people were so hooked on Hillary that they won’t vote for Obama, then they’re not really democrats anyway, and certainly are piss-poor citizens in any event… and are almost certainly just crypto-racists. OR so insanely “feminist” that they’d vote for the carbonized corpse of Eva Braun if she were running for president over ANY male in creation.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
You know, t_man, when I voted for the first time at 18, I did vote for Nader lol!
August 29th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
I won’t be voting for Obama but I did like when he said “if I do lose this presidential race it won’t be because I’m black”. That to me was very refreshing and says how far we have come.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Randall,
“OR so insanely “feminist” that they’d vote for the carbonized corpse of Eva Braun if she were running for president over ANY male in creation.”
Wow, thank God the sanctified mortal remains of Evita Peron aren’t running then!
August 29th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Yep, Black Female here and I think we are ready. Look at all the bull thats going on now. This world can’t get any worse. Obama is a great man. Why pass on a great leader because some small minded people are not “ready” for someone whose skin color isnt white to become presedent. I could go on and on but I gotta go home. Getting off work
August 29th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Sarah Palin is a stunningly poor choice. With McCain’s age and health issues a concern, why would you select someone who is so obviously not qualified to assume the duties of the president, should that be necessary?
August 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Yogi,i I think you can argue that she has just as much experience as Obama. She is running a state which I think comes closer to the Presidents responsibilities than a legislator. Being a Governor makes her Commander & Chief of the National Guard of Alaska. Plus I think overall she has more life experiences than Obama.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
The bigger question is, is America in need of a President who can begin to bring our Nation into the 21st century with intelligence, pride, integrity and decisiveness?
I think that that answer is yes, something long overdue.
Barack O’bama has won my vote with his marvelous grasp of the problems and difficulties that he will inherit if he is elected to office. He has shown a desire to move our country towards a more positive and creative future. He has outlined a multi-faceted game plan for a long term goal of success that is based on the strengths of a new generation of thinkers and doers.
This is the person we need to represent our Nation, and I don’t see where race comes into that question at all.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
bucslim, (124)
“Anon – sorry, you’re just not going to prove that to me. I spent quite a bit of my time arguing this in the ‘your view’ question on global warming.”
Just noticed this. This is one of your serious entries, ya? Not comix bollox!
Well, so have I (spent time on the global warming site). If you don’t accept the twin spearheads of the issue, I certainly can’t convince you. You’ll just have to wait and see if you are right, and hope so. They are:
1)The vast majority of scientists have now accepted the issue, including those who have spent their careers studying all the disciplines involved.
2) That if you are right we can carry on as before and you can turn round and tell me, “I told you so”. If you are wrong you might not be here to hear me say that and I might not be here to say it to you. You wouldn’t even take that risk, so you must have 100% proof that you are correct. Yes? Otherwise why would you not take precautions *just in case* for your sake, your kids sake (if you have any), and for everything on this planet you hold dear (if only LV)?
If someone says “Doctors don’t know shit about medicine and there’s nothing wrong with me”, I guess that’s the end of any argument though.
And no. I’m not going to prove that to you. How on earth can I, or anyone else? The only thing that will *prove* it is by hindsight should it happen. (I’m optimistic: assuming survivors, note.) All we can do is look at unusual related phenomena and make well-educated guesses at what they signify. That’s what scientists do, from lifetimes of study, research and experience. And then they get together and add up their data, see how much agrees, what is forming patterns and what fulfils earlier predictions of many kinds. This is the work that has convinced them. They now need the backing of the rest of us, but will have to count without yours. I only hope they can count on the next U.S. president, black or white.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
his color matters about as much as his favorite color
seriously
he is the man for the job
whether you agree that he is best for the job or not, his color doesnt matter
think: would you (dis)agree as much if he was white?
i know i would still vote for him
i dont want to see 4 more years of the same, plus he has interesting and good policies, go look at them, listin to him speak
August 29th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
I think the majority of the country is ready for Obama & I’ll be voting for him in November.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Anon: oh yeah, I caught that, too. McCain is so saucy with his sneakiness, blinding us with her voluptuous ta-tas in hopes that he can shove her in front of him and equate somewhere near “even” for asthetics.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Yogi said: “If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide”
Yogi, is it at all possible that if Obama was not black he would not be where he is politically speaking.
Yogi said: “If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide”
Yogi, is it at all possible that if Obama was not black he would not be where he is politically speaking?
I’m not asking that in a snotty condescending way. Someone asked me that question and I had to admit that he probably wouldn’t.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
The Obama campaign calling Palin inexperienced is a joke. Maybe they should take a look at their own candidate before making comparisons. Sarah Palin is the only individual involved in this election with one minute’s experience in an executive branch of government. What expertise do Obama and Biden have on energy policy? None. Palin ran one of the largest energy producing states in the nation. Legislative experience does not always transfer to executive success. I’m not saying that Palin has the experience necessary to run for President, but neither does Obama, and she isn’t running for President. Obama is. Just because McCain picks someone inexperienced to cast the tie-breaking vote in the Senate, that doesn’t negate the fact that Obama is just as inexperienced and he is running to lead the country.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Sorry for the double talk. I guess I’m a typical politician
August 29th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Yes.
Anyone that is not ready is a stupid racist that is too blind to see how smart Obama is.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
I agree Dave
The Obama’s campaign first put out a statement saying :
“Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency”
Then they retracted it and said
“We send our congratulations to Governor Palin and her family on her designation as the Republican nominee for vice president. Her selection is yet another encouraging sign that all barriers are falling in our politics and while we obviously have differences over how to best lead this country forward Governor Palin is an admirable person and will add a compelling new voice to this campaign.”
I guess they could see the writing on the wall.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I think the more important question here is “IS HE CAPABLE” well i think so? an hope so? O-B-A-M-A! O-B-A-M-A! O-B-A-M-A!
August 29th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
wow seriously? why does everyone keep saying mccain will be just the same as bush? does no one pay any attention to congress? mccain has gone against the bush administration more than any other republican in the entire congress. just because he’s white and a republican doesnt mean he’ll be the same as bush. maybe you should ask the question if america is ready for a moderate politician? because he’s not that conservative. he’s like leiberman but conservative instead of liberal.
but what really made me laugh this week was hillary clinton endorsing obama after all the bashing she did against him during the primaries. that made my week.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Barack Obama is a good man. A far more intelligent and wise than McCain. If America chooses to deny themselves the best candidate for president they’ve ever had (almost), it’s on their heads. He needs to win. If he doesn’t, we’re down the shitter.
I can’t decide if America is ready. But I am.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
THANK YOU DAVE! Well said.
Palin is not running for President, but Obama is, but if you want to be a stickler, day count-wise she has more experience than he does.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Some Americans are ready and some are not, I don’t care what color his skin is, I only care that Obama, being the better candidate should win. It’s likely people will vote or not vote for him based on his race and not his political stance, and that is unfortunate, but it is also life. I will be voting for the first time in my life in November, and I guarantee Barack Obama’s skin color will not be a factor in my vote.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
I don’t understand the “nice try” comments directed at me about McCain not being eligible considering the government itself felt it needed to pass a resolution making McCain a natural born citizen. A resolution which was, oddly enough endorsed,by Hillary and Obama. If an American base on foreign land is considered American soil this would not have been necessary.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Zylen, I don’t think the 14th Amendment was written to change the rules of who could be the President, it was to determine citizenship. I don’t think the founders would have agreed to rule out someone in McCain’s position. I mean come on, he was born on a military base because his father was serving his country.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
I think we are ready, but with McCain choosing a female as a Vice President running mate, America will be seen as sexist if Obama wins, and racist if McCain wins
August 29th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Well I don’t care about the colour of a person’s skin in relation to power. That said, I don’t like him not because he is black. I’m afraid the best guy for this job is Ron Paul who isn’t running any more.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
It should no longer matter in America what color a person is. We ARE ready for a GOOD president, and Obama is that person.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
It’s terrible in this day and age that this question should even be asked. He’s HUMAN!!! He should be judged upon his achievements, policies etc. Move on peoples.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Oh my god he’s black, He has a different skin color so we all must seclude him from our other great presidents (Those very few…)I think the U.S needs to get over the bullshit about how if someone is a different color you must hate them.I in fact,Would vote for Mr.Obama,too bad i cant.Truly i put more Faith in Obama than in any other candidate right now,i watched his speech,amazing,he knows what the American people need and want,and he knows what he is talking about.Very Intelligent man,Obama 08!!!
August 29th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
According to Liam:
“best candidate for president they’ve ever had (almost)”
So now we’ve gone from the Democratic nominee to the best candidate ever? Read that carefully, THE BEST CANDIDATE EVER. So Roosevelt, Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson et al were less qualified than Obama? First time I’ve heard that.
Did someone see the Virgin Mary’s likeness on his cheek or something? Give me a break!
August 29th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Yeah. Watching Obama’s speech solidified my decision to vote for McCain. What did he really say? he just made 28 promises, and i seriously seriously doubt that the majority of them will ever occur. Yeah he gave a speech, didnt really say anything though.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
I think that the topic is moot. Anyone who votes Democratic generally opposes Republicans to begin with, and generally, democratic supporters are not racist. People who support Republican values and commitments will vote Republican anyways. If anything, the color of Obama’s skin has only HELPED him! I honestly think that Americans are readier for a black president than say, a woman president.
At this point Obama is just the lesser of two evils. I do not think he is anywhere NEAR prepared for presidency, but another Republican would be FAAAR worse.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I think Obama will win not because he’s white but because he’s a democrat. We are a little bit tired and bored of the republicans.
White or Black president, racism issues can never be eradicated in a country of people with such diverse backgrounds. We need to get over our colour, religion, creed, etc. if we are to progress as a nation.
I just hope that we don’t have a situation like South Africa where racism roles got reversed post-aparthied.
August 30th, 2008 at 1:05 am
Wowww… nice listverse.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/Flugy14/dfgh.jpg
In my opinion you shouldn’t advertise a political candidate on a page discussing your views on one, especially another.
August 30th, 2008 at 2:24 am
ptbus0: Lol… that is an advertisement? Maybe I should turn ad-blocker off
August 30th, 2008 at 2:28 am
Oh god… I just turned it back on.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:31 am
The question is racist by it’s nature. The question should be “is Obama qualified to be President ?”. If you add the word “black” you make it race based and not qualification based and therfore you are racist by asking the question. The answer is – he does not have enough experience to be President.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:39 am
I’m not American but I lived there for quite a while and I believe it’s about damn time!
August 30th, 2008 at 3:59 am
The question is racist by it’s nature. The question should be “is Obama qualified to be President?”. If you add the word “black” you make it race based and not qualification based
Wamus – Get real…Obama’s ethnicity has been of key interest in the entire race for the presidency. The question is topical, relevant, and inoffensive.
and therfore you are racist by asking the question.
Get over yourself.
August 30th, 2008 at 4:02 am
and therfore you are racist by asking the question.
Get over yourself.
** oops..typo in #191
August 30th, 2008 at 4:03 am
and therfore you are racist by asking the question.
Get over yourself.
** oops..typo in #191
August 30th, 2008 at 5:00 am
this is a little off topic from the actual question at hand, but i think that the fact that Obama is black is giving more reputation and popularity than he would have if he was the typical presidential race (white).
I also think that the fact that he is black is getting him more support from younger voters. i know that people like me who just turned 18 and have been watching Bush since the fifth grade are ready for a big change in the USA and feel that Barrack Obama will be it.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Just a few comments. I think America is ready for a black president. I don’t think Obama is ready though. Heck, I even like the Governor from Louisiana. Bobby Jindal, he’s Indian.
As someone had said, it falls along the lines of Liberal and Conservative more than it does race. People need to look past Bush and not connect all republicans with him.
I saw where Obama is not totally black. Here’s the snippet….
“”Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs.. Barack Hussein Obama’s father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro).”
Don’t know what to take of this. I guess he’s still officially black if you only go by skin color, but really of arab descent.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:06 am
to #181
Nick Palla: How can one man (your savior Obama) know whats best for an entire country of people from countless different backgrounds?
people think that because he is different, because he deviates from the norm of politics, that he will bring some miraculous transformation to the US society. if one was to take all his ideas, strategies, etc. and compare them to those of another recent democratic president; they would find barely any differences at all. the deciding factor in this race will ironically be, race.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:29 am
what a stupid question. this isn’t a matter of race. the us has been ready for a black president for a long time. or some other sort of minority that doesn’t follow the WASP template.
what matters here as stated many, many times above is not the color of obama’s skin, what his parents chose to name him, or what his ancestors did hundreds of years ago. what matters is issues facing america NOW, the pointless expensive war in iraq, increasing higher education costs (i pay 20 grand a year to be taught in broken engrish by some chinese man who really knows his math, but not his english….and no that’s not racist), the increasing cost of food, and the despicable situation regarding our public primary and secondary schools.
i don’t care if our next president is green with purple spots, as long as he makes america once again the greatest country in the world.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:33 am
What’s disgusting are these ugly false rumors about him being a “secret Muslim” (whatever the hell that means) and that he was educated in a terrorist madrassa, blah blah blah.
Even if he was Muslim, why is that such a dirty word? Muslim does not equal terrorist!
August 30th, 2008 at 5:36 am
It’s also disgusting how all the conservative columnists and writers ALWAYS refer to him as “Barack HUSSEIN Obama,” just to keep reminding everybody that maybe, just maybe, he actually is a “secret Muslim!” “Look folks, his name is Hussein! Just like that terrorist dictator bad guy in Iraq that we fought against! He must be a Muslim terrorist too! Vote John McCain! White guys for America!”
August 30th, 2008 at 5:44 am
i pay 20 grand a year to be taught in broken engrish by some chinese man who really knows his math, but not his english….and no that’s not racist
Oh, really? So why, when apparently making a point about higher costs of education, do you feel the need to refer to “engrish”? And why also specify that your teacher is “some chinese man”?
August 30th, 2008 at 6:30 am
Yes. Good luck Barack Obama. Too bad I can’t vote
Would have for Hillary Clinton heh.
August 30th, 2008 at 6:37 am
I’d want a black man, or a man of any race to be president over a woman. I’ll tell you that much.
August 30th, 2008 at 7:08 am
Munken, When it comes down to it, it really is every man for himself.
Sad, yes, but it’s also the truth.
Don’t try to convince yourself it’s not like that.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:24 am
with the number of race baiters in this country, jesse jackson, and al sharpton chief among them, a black president will be the downfall of this country. racism has experienced a complete turnaround, where whites have less rights than non whites, due to white liberal guilt over the past, a past that aforementioned people can’t seem to get over. slavery was a terrible thing, but it can no longer be used as an excuse for the problems of america’s black communities.
August 30th, 2008 at 10:25 am
no we arent ready
and before you say RACISTLOLOLOL” let me explain
what are the three things that should not matter in politics
race
gender
religion
what are we voting off of?
race
gender
religion
half the stuff you see on TV is spewing this garbage against the candidates
we arent ready
we neverwill be ready
not until we can stop focusing on useless things such as race and cant focus on what really matters
WHAT THEY WILL DO FOR US
August 30th, 2008 at 10:26 am
and i HATE MY TYPOS
you get my point
August 30th, 2008 at 10:34 am
I think the US is ready for the person best suited to do the job. Why should skin color enter the equation?
August 30th, 2008 at 11:14 am
I don’t think that a persons race should have an effect on politics any more than religion or sex does. Voting is like hiring, you should consider if the person can do the job, if they have the experience, can they tell you where they plan to be in 5 years (I never liked that job interview question).
However remember that Obama is not totally “black” either. He is really multi-racial, although I am not an Obama fan, I think being multi-racial really points to how the future of America should be, where race does not effect relationships or jobs or anything.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Yes, but not this commie punk.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
yes. we have been ready but even when we do have a “black” president, black people will still complain about equality.
i put quotations around “black” because i dont even consider him black.if he is half and half i can consider him white or black, right? or is it “politically incorrect” to do so?
August 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I’m just still trying to get over that Randall said MILF.
haha
August 30th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
LOL, the ad at the top of the page is for an “interracial dating” site. Hmm….
August 30th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
I think that we are, and that’s proven just by the fact of how far he’s already come. There is a good chance that he will win this coming election.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Usually, I am careful to read every post before adding my own. In this instance, I have purposefully *NOT* read any of the posts above.
I wanted to make sure I posted only my opinion, and avoided reacting to anything anyone else had posted.
I believe that America is ready for a black President, but that really is the smaller question this year.
*Is America ready for a brilliant, eloquent leader who will put the needs of the American middle-class people first, and the needs of the super-rich America second?
*Is America ready for a President who is ready to admit that the war in Iraq was a mistake from the start, and is ready to both create a reasonable timetable for withdrawal and beef-up the war in Afganistan?
*Is America ready for a President who not only believes the scientists about global warming, but is ready to immediately implement programs to fight it?
*Is America ready for a President who has proven his dedication to the common man, by turning his back on an assured high-profile, high-salaried job on Wall Street, to organize the poor and disinfranchized on Chicago’s South side.
*Is America ready for a President (and Vice-President), who believes women deserve equal pay for equal work, and a choice in her own reproduction.
America is ready. Are the “talking heads” and “commentators” ready?
August 30th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
I think only half of America is ready for a black man to be president. The civil rights movement was only forty years ago, a time filled with lynchings, murders and bombings, and most of that generation is still alive. People are stubborn and stuck in their ways plus the kids that grew up around that kind of hate usually develop the same hate they see their parents display. Those people alone won’t give obama their vote regardless of how they feel about the issues. I wish I could say that we as a nation have advanced past this but it hasn’t happened yet. Plus hillary should be president she gets my write in vote.
August 30th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
black or white American? whatever, as long as he’s a good leader. skin color doesn’t matter.
August 30th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
it don’t matter if you’re black or white
August 30th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
I think we’re ready for a black president (or female president for that matter), but Obama doesn’t have the experience necessary.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:26 am
The USA NEED a change and urgently. and to those that moan about Obama’s lack of experience, what experience did G.W. Bush have when he entered the White House….surely Obama cannot fare worse then Bush.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:27 am
For all of you that are basing your opinions based on the speeches he gives/gave, keep in mind, kiddies, that he doesn’t write his speeches. They are written for him, as it is with most president/presidential candidates. Black or white, male or female.
August 31st, 2008 at 5:06 am
Have you noticed. Obama isn’t running as the first black president. I have yet hear him bring that up as a factor. He truely does rise above the issue of race and simply runs as a man with good ideas. I think people of all skin color can appreciate that. He attends a Christian church of black heritage, but he doesn’t seem to use that heritage for political gain in any way. How interesting is that?
I guess he saw that it didn’t work for Jackson or Sharpton and that he better run as a man with ideas that is black and not a black man that has ideas.
August 31st, 2008 at 5:55 am
The generational gap is the problem, in my eyes. People under 25, that is to say, the folks in my generation, have the utmost faith in Obama. However, I know a very hefty amount of middle-class and upper-middle-class white men of the previous generation (35ish or more) who are silently (sometimes) doubting Obama simply because of his race. They are, of course, extremely uncomfortable talking about this, and they insist that it’s because “he speaks like a liberal advertisement” or something like that. As if rhetoric is a new tool in politics.
This is a man who, because of his race, understands that problems and solutions are both sides of the same coin. This is an intelligent, genuine person who believes that America’s government made many huge mistakes in the past eight years. This is a president who has faith in science and technology, and doesn’t believe in quasireligious, extremist mumbojumbo. This is a man who believes in freedom. YES, America is ready for Obama. In fact, “ready” is the wrong word. Obama is necessary for this nation.
August 31st, 2008 at 6:38 am
new york, (222),
I’m a middle-class, white male roughly three times the age of your 20-plus-something generation. I am sure the choice of US president will affect the world we all live in critically.
So I wish the hell I could vote for Obama, if even what you have written was all I knew. But I can’t. I’m not American. My future, our future, is in your hands. Please, please get it right.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:15 am
#220. Lex
For all of you that are basing your opinions based on the speeches he gives/gave, keep in mind, kiddies, that he doesn’t write his speeches. They are written for him, as it is with most president/presidential candidates.
****
Oh, Lexie, how wrong can you be?
Both Barak and Michell Obama write their own speeches.
McCain has his speeches written for him, and can’t even read them!
Before you make sweeping statements about someone, try doing some homework, instead of making assumptions.
Assumptions are the fall-back position of those who have no actual knowledge.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:47 am
segue,
Ass-umptions? Fall-back? I like it! Spike Milligan 2.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:01 am
To return to serious mode. Inevitably I must override those here (US voters or not) who sincerely do not or cannot accept my (non-US) concern over potentially disastrous climate-change and its origins.
However, as a white Caucasian male of exactly the same age as McCain, I believe it is critical and imperative that the next US leader must grasp the nettle of rapid changes to meet the crisis. Of the two, I believe that only Obama is likely to have the radical mindset and vigour to meet the challenge. His colour and origins are irrelevant to the issue. It is global and he is a citizen of the world. Whether he can overcome the massive inertia and resistance involved is another question.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:23 am
I don’t care if the potus is white, black, purple, etc. as long he does a good job.
August 31st, 2008 at 10:27 am
Anon 225, I chose my words *very* carefully.
And to all of you twenty-something’s who think that only the younger generation is ready for a black President; Which generation do you think marched with Dr. Martin L. King jr. to achieve civil rights for blacks? Which generation took buses down south to sign blacks up to vote, and took the beatings and arrests (and worse) for their trouble? Which generation made sure the little black children, who were the first to integrate the white schools, made it safely there and back home? Which generation sat at the “blacks only” lunch counters, until they were served, or dragged away by the local Sheriff?
It was the generation of your parents, your grandparents. It was a generation of dreamers and doers; a generation who believed they could move mountains, and did.
We’re still here, we still dream, we still believe, we still do, and we still will move mountains.
August 31st, 2008 at 10:32 am
He will get assassinated.
End of.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:07 am
# 196
We all live in the same country, Whether the backrounds differ or not,we still can have the same problems.
)
I don’t look to Obama as a savior,I look to him as a good candidate for presidency,a person who might,just might change something,make the U.S better,or maybe not,how much can he mess up in four years?( I realize im probably going to regret this as some form of irony in the near future
August 31st, 2008 at 11:13 am
“How prominent is racism in the US?” Very prominent. But not necessarily against minorities.
We have black TV stations, black magazines, black organizations, and black legislation. While I agree that in certain parts of the country racism is rampant, large cities are very diverse and racism is considerably a non-issue.
In my subdivision on my street we have families who are white, black, hispanic, hindu, greek, muslim, chinese, and vietnamese. Off the top of my head. It’s really a non-issue. America is much more diverse than 30 years ago.
Many families have a white and black parent. White teenagers date black teenagers. For the most part it’s become irrelevant in my area.
Hispanics are growing at such a large rate they will be the majority in a few generations.
However, I think it’s unfortunate that many blacks still fall back on race and slavery instead of acknowledging personal responsibility. Life and progress are about ambition and determination; scholarships are abundant, opportunity is everywhere. You just have to work toward it.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:20 am
Jfrater: I think you made a mistake the topic should be “Is the US ready for an AFRICAN AMERICAN president?” because you might hurt people’s feelings if you write BLACK even if he is indeed black.
I think the US is not ready because there is still a division of blacks and white. In an article in Newsweek it basically said that if you didn’t vote for NObama you were a racist.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:26 am
yes
August 31st, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Obama is the only hope for America.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Yes the US is ready for a black president but i do not feel that Barack Obama is the man for the job come November. For me John McCain is the man, he has more knowledge for the position and deserves it more. Politically McCain is the better man and if the US feel that they want to put someone in just for the color of their skin then at least get someone who is competent.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:16 pm
As an African-American, I will be voting for Barack Obama, because of not only the brilliancy of his campaign and how he has been able to lift himself up from attacks from Hilary, Democrates, Republicans, McCain, and Bush, but also in regard to the fact this country no longer needs incompetent leaders such as Bush in office.
I liked McCain for a small amount of time, before he started to become wishy washy in his criticism and allow ridiculous campaign smears to be aired on television and then say the presidential race should have some humor.
He is pathetic now, and I’d rather have our nation rise or sink in the hands of someone new than another old, Republican white man who cares nothing for the plight of those under him.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:16 pm
segue, (228),
That’s why you got the Milligan award! Sorry to have pointed up thge obvious by crude analysis. I didn’t want to risk its subtlety causing it not to be fully appreciated.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:15 pm
# 236
You know who was another republican white man, abraham lincoln, thanks for grouping every “white male republican” together and showing race is still a factor.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:52 pm
#237. Anon
segue, (228),
That’s why you got the Milligan award! Sorry to have pointed up the obvious by crude analysis. I didn’t want to risk its subtlety causing it not to be fully appreciated.
****
Sometimes subtlety is a curse, but it’s one I’ll just have to live with.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:01 pm
segue,
But a sublime curse.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:09 pm
I hope so, but I think a lot of Americans might say they are but vote differently.
I think he’s got a fight on his hands because of his color, he’d be a dead cert otherwise which is pretty sad.
Time will tell.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:45 pm
#238
I don’t consider Lincoln better than the next. Freeing the slaves wasn’t done in opposition to the atrocities of slavery, it was done as a political ploy and war strategy.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:47 pm
I’ll also add race is a factor, though it shouldn’t be. I highly doubt we will ever see a black republican candidate vying for president…ever…
August 31st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
#242
I agree freeing the slaves was political but lincoln is great for having the resolve to bring a divided nation back together even though it was unpopular in the north.
#243
Colin powell became chairman of the joint chiefs and secretary of state as a black republican, why can’t we have a black republican president, somebody always has to be first
August 31st, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Actually, here is exactly where McCain showed his true ineptitude.
Colin Powell would have been the best choice for Vice-President (actually, he would have been the best Republican choice for President), he is intelligent, experienced, and centered. Instead, McCain chose an inexperienced, far to the right-wing running mate, solely because:
A – she was a woman
and
B – held views even more extreme than his own.
This should come back to bite McCain in the butt, still, politics is a weird animal. Just when you think you have it figured out, it turns around and does exactly the opposite.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:41 pm
hopefully this gets read.
The saddest part about this entire election is that race keeps getting brought up. and even sadder is the shear number of people that are going to rush to the polls just to vote for this man because hes black. they have no idea what he stands for besides “change”(what does that even mean? could he be anymore vague?) Its absolutely embarrassing to walk through the grocery store and see the 20 somethings with the Obama shirts on that say nothing other than “change” and they have no fucking clue what this mans values are or what he stands for. NO CLUE.
Hopefully these brats actually do a little homework and learn about both candidates before they go sprinting to the polls to vote for someone that flip flops more than a pair of fucking sandals.
To be honest i really dont care who these people vote for as long as they educate themselves first as to what each of the candidates stands for.
And as for the people that will say this is all about me being a republican. Fine. We all have an agenda. But before you spew the nonsense from your mouth that you call an opinion. Read up on the inexperienced candidate youre about to cast your vote for and the fact that his running mate probably would choose the other guy if it came down to leadership and experience
August 31st, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Wow, badlist, I’ve never read a comment from you that included complete sentences before.
I think you made a good point.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Bucslim-
Jefferson and Lincoln were America’s prophets. Roosevelt and Washington – eh… so so.
Barack Obama, if elected, will do as much as or more than Lincoln or Jefferson, but probably as much. McCain is a shithead^76 and would ultimately destroy this country. So, in comparison to all of the twentieth and twenty-first century candidates for president, yes Obama is almost the best candidate ever. The others include Kennedy, Jefferson, Lincoln, maybe George Washington, and a fraction of Roosevelt.
P.S. I understand your Virgin Mary reference, but I might as well tell you that she never existed.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Is the US ready for a black president? Yes.
Does that mean we are obligated to vote for an unexperienced radical with a racist mentor who started his political campaign in the home of an unrepentant terrorist? No.
Don’t confuse rejecting Obama with rejecting the idea of a black president. I’ll vote for a black president some day… just not this one.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Yes. I’ve taken a good look at both Obama and McCain and clearly without a shadow of a doubt Obama’s a thousand times better to lead America. He is above race I think, and very much determined to be the next president. The question is: is America ready for a muslim president?
August 31st, 2008 at 9:35 pm
badlist,
“To be honest i really dont care who these people vote for as long as they educate themselves first as to what each of the candidates stands for.”
Never mind the 20 somethings. Never mind the party preference. ¿Pass an exam on knowledge of the issues and the candidates before you’re allowed to vote? Wow, That’d really thin them out.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Xay, I know it’s fashionable these days to downplay Lincoln’s involvement in the anti slave movement but did you know his parents were anti-slavery, and young Abe also carried these views?
He also said “I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. That sounds to me like a little more than a political ploy and war strategy.
How about giving just a little bit more credit where credit is due.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Anon and badlist,
Yeah, but you’d be surprised at which party would be thinned out the most…
Just sad seeing a gross assumption like that being made, that a “Change” t-shirt, support of Obama, and being between the ages of 18 and 30 makes you a retard. Same could be said to those who listen to Rush Limbaugh and vote solely on his “pearls of wisdom”. (Sorry, Rushfan, I went there, but I will say the same about those who watch “The Daily Show” as their only source of political information.)
August 31st, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Cedestra, (253),
“Anon and badlist,
Yeah, but you’d be surprised at which party would be thinned out the most…”
Ah, but would I?
September 1st, 2008 at 2:00 am
I most certainly hope so,coz I’m 1000000% behind him:)
September 1st, 2008 at 2:44 am
segue #224:
Where did you get the idea that Obama writes his own speeches? Jon Favreau has received a lot of press coverage recently. Obama collaborates with him & 2 others:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/fashion/20speechwriter.html
http://www.newsweek.com/id/84756/output/print
September 1st, 2008 at 3:06 am
Coming in late, but the choice of Palin is a bad mistake if McCain is hoping she will pick up the disaffected Clinton vote.
Apart from being a woman Palin appears to share absolutely nothing with Hillary so why would a Clinton supporter vote for her over Obama?
Is the USA ready for a Black President? I’m not convinced but I view the fact that one of the two main parties did not feature a white male as a serious candidate for nomination to be a big step forward.
Cheers
Lee
September 1st, 2008 at 5:39 am
Yes, I believe they are ready. So he is Obama. And the rest of the world will sigh a sense of relief.
Hopefully, this is the last we see of Dubya!
September 1st, 2008 at 7:12 am
yes the United States is ready for a black president it just isn’t Obama.
September 1st, 2008 at 7:44 am
@Yun 249, I was going to write something and then read your response. Far more succinct that I would have been and right on target. Thanks.
September 1st, 2008 at 10:05 am
I don’t think it matters what color his skin is.
I’m 13, and don’t really know anything about politics, but he seems like a pretty cool guy if I might say so myelf. Theres a really cool song about him by the hush sound. Its called We Believe [in barack obama] its really funny. You should hear it.
September 1st, 2008 at 11:11 am
I see no point in discussing color of skin. It in all honesty dosent make us any different in side. We just look different. that being said, i am a US citizen, and i will be voteing for Obama. Not because he is a black man, but because i agree with his views, and i believe that this country needs to change, and MAKE PEACE WITH THE WORLD!!! No more war, no more sending my family and friends over seas to protect the oil that G.W. Bush is so tied into. You realize that his family is very very very close with the afgani (sp?) leader, and very tied in with all the oil companies in the country. John McCain is wanting to continue the war for OVER 100 YEARS!! Yeah he said it in a speech or two. I will not stay in this country is McCain is voted in. I wont do another 4 years of the same crap, i wont watch my country go down the drain. I have done my part for the change, i donate to Obama, i go to his rallies in my town, and i will vote for him. IF McCAIN WINS I WILL MOVE TO CANADA, maybe mexico sence i dont like the snow…
September 1st, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Why the heck would you vote for the current Elephant ticket? Giving Sarah the position of being the second highest official of the world’s strongest nation? I mean, what the f*ck! She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid.( I guess his brains is starting to experience the toll of gettin’ old.) Therefore, this just reflects what kindov choices he’s gonna make when he becomes the President. Utter stupidity. ( Plus his pro-war agendas.)
Sadly, the maxims of the Elephants nowadays strongly deviates and differs from what the Elephants were back then (Lincoln times)
The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.
Goin’ back to the real issue,
I believe America is ready ferit.
To be more specific,
America is ready for Barack Obama.
Dems rule!
September 1st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
you guys are so lucky to have somebody like Obama to run for president. out here in Canada we get to choose between
a) a bush wannabe (Harper)
b) somebody who can’t set priorities (Dion)
c) Quebec separatist (Duceppe)
d) a nutcase (Layton)
September 1st, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Rinneganleks said “Why the heck would you vote for the current Elephant ticket? Giving Sarah the position of being the second highest official of the world’s strongest nation? I mean, what the f*ck! She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid.( I guess his brains is starting to experience the toll of gettin’ old.) Therefore, this just reflects what kindov choices he’s gonna make when he becomes the President. Utter stupidity. ( Plus his pro-war agendas.)
Sadly, the maxims of the Elephants nowadays strongly deviates and differs from what the Elephants were back then (Lincoln times)
The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.
Goin’ back to the real issue,
I believe America is ready ferit.
To be more specific,
America is ready for Barack Obama.
Dems rule!”
Rinneganlek, I know you are on the fringe just like there are plenty of ’elephants” on the fringe but you are really making an ass( No pun intended) out of yourself when you make such ignorant statements. Most of my friends identify themselves as democrats “and you my friend are not a democrat”. I happen to be a republican but without even asking “all” of my friends would not agree with what you just posted
September 1st, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Okay, is this actually something to debate over?
Americans are NOT ready for a black president. We are all a bunch of racist, prejudiced BASTARDS who can’t even wrap our minds around the concept of gay marriage, and you’re saying that we’re going to elect a black president?
Fat chance!
Don’t get me wrong, I would love for Obama to win, but I think that our last series of elections have proven that the American public, as a whole, is fucking stupid. After electing Bush for a SECOND term, I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone moved to amend the constitution so that we could elect him for a third.
Old white people are what American’s feel safe with. Old white people who aren’t a fan of the gays. We should all just be happy that a black man made it on the ballot. That’s step one, folks. It’s going to be many, many years before we’re ready to actually have a black president, or a president of any other non-white race.
That is, assuming the American empire hasn’t already fallen by then…
September 1st, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Also, as I’m reading some of these, I’m seeing a lot of posts to the effect of “ohmegawd, why are we even discussing skin color, that’s not even an issue, you guys are racists”…
Have any of you been to the southern United States?
Living in a southern Missouri redneck town teaches you that actually, yeah, it matters a hell of a lot. I really wish it didn’t, but there are a bunch of redneck republicans that aren’t even really sure what the term “republican” means (they just know that “they ain’t electing no colored folk”) who I assure you will vote purely, PURELY based on the color of the candidate’s skin.
So yeah, hate to say it, but a majority of southern US is going to make the color of his skin extremely relevant.
September 1st, 2008 at 9:39 pm
@261
You’re my favorite.
The Hush Sound = awesome. =]
September 1st, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Liam #248
“Barack Obama, if elected, will do as much as or more than Lincoln or Jefferson, but probably as much.”
Explain, in detail, how Obama will do as much or more than Lincoln or Jefferson.
What is your basis for this statement? His extensive (not) voting record in the Senate? His foreign policy? How many budgets has he balanced? What critical problems facing the nation has he solved or has a solution to? How is he going to stimulate the economy? How is he going to solve our energy problems? What in his past has convinced you, other than his speeches, that he’s ready to be president?
And before you answer, he’ll answer my questions for you, Change we can believe in. That’s it. So I seriously doubt you can have anything to say about Obama’s potential activities being on the same level as freeing the slaves and leading us during a civil war (Lincoln) or writing the Declaration of Independence and being a major contributor to the Constitution (Jefferson) Your statement makes little sense in light of those monumental contributions by those great men.
You have no sense of the history of this country, and thus have no basis for making the ridiculous claim that he is “almost the best candidate ever.”
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:14 am
Panic! – I guess those redneck Republicans were duped into thinking JC Watts wasn’t ‘colored’ in your terms, when he got elected from that redneck state of Oklahoma. And I guess that Colin Powell bleached his skin when he was Secretary of State. And you’ll probably come back to tell me that Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas were Uncle Toms who betrayed their race when they had the audacity to be conservative, not to mention Thomas Sowell and Alan Keyes.
Your post 267 is one of the most ignorant, stupid and racist posts I’ve seen on this website. Just because you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town doesn’t mean the rest of us behave that way. According to you, we’re supposed to vote for Obama BECAUSE he’s black. Sorry, Jesse Jackson already tried that.
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:45 am
Black, Asian, White, Native American… who cares. Do not raise taxes, lower government spending and keep this country from becoming a social state, that is all I care about.
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:52 am
Obama isn’t black, though. He’s a white man who’s traded on what little black blood he has as well as his rich white family. Why will people insist that this man is black? If the one drop rule applies, then I suppose everybody is just about everything in this country. Just another rich person running for office.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:10 am
Rinneganleks #263
“She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid”
“The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.”
Nice – another ignorant Democrat Liberal shows his/her ass on this website. How exactly is someone’s daughter getting pregnant have anything whatsoever to do with national politics? Now I’m supposed to vote for Obama because McCain’s running mate’s kid is pregnant? Yeah, that’ll solve everything! And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?
Complete and utter horsehit.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:11 am
Uh. . .complete and utter h-o-r-s-e-s-h-i-t.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:51 am
So much of this cascade of often virulent discord depresses me. I think I’ll just slink off and wait to see what happens when the time comes. Without over-much hope.
September 2nd, 2008 at 10:58 am
For one, it is generally acceptable for a black person to become president. There will always be racists against every race and haters against every religion, belief system, and political view. So yes, the fact that Obama is even the democratic nominee shows this. At this point it will be based on the campaign.
My biggest concern with Obama is that we know nothing about him except he’s good at getting up in front of people and talking. Bucslim made some great points in #269.
I’m a conservative guy and I have some liberal friends and we have healthy discussions and aren’t “kool-aid drinkers” who buy everything from one political party. Some of you guys are here are completely psychotic. Thankyou Bucslim for bringing some actual logic to the discussion.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:28 am
bucslim:
Oh for the love of Christ.
“His extensive (not) voting record in the Senate?”
FALSEHOOD. This nonsense got started with Obama’s voting record in the *Illinois STATE senate.* He did not vote in a number of instances there, which is common… he voted “present”–a practice in Illinois which expresses disapproval for a bill without actually voting against it. It was not the majority of his votes, and in fact he sponsored a large number of bills on all manner of legislation. His record in the US senate does NOT reflect a pattern of “not voting” at all… he has in fact voted regularly and again has sponsored a substantial amount of legislation.
This is just pure right wing smear tactics, this lie that Obama “doesn’t vote.” It’s pure bullshit.
“His foreign policy?”
And let’s have a discussion of Bush’s and McCain’s foreign policy. More blunders and illegal aggressions, that’s about what it amounts to.
“How many budgets has he balanced?”
How many have the Republicans balanced over the last 8 years?
But let’s just point out that Obama has run a campaign with enormous funds at his disposal and he has kept it in the black the entire time while his opponents on BOTH sides of the aisle ran theirs into the red. So there’s a budget he’s kept very well. Good enough for you?
“What critical problems facing the nation has he solved or has a solution to?”
This is such bullshit I can’t believe it. I know you were responding to the over-the-top comments of the original poster, but please… A) what candidate has EVER solved problems facing the nation, other than a sitting president? B) name ONE problem McCain has authoritatively addressed. And C) Obama HAS laid out his solutions to many of the problems currently facing us. He’s done this on his website, spoken of them in public, and just laid out much of his plan in his recent acceptance speech at the Democratic convention.
So enough with the crap.
“How is he going to stimulate the economy? How is he going to solve our energy problems?”
Again, see above. It isn’t Obama’s fault (or mine) if you just DON’T LISTEN or have your right-wing head too far up your ass to HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.
I like you, man, but I can’t stand it when people like you just repeat this blather like it’s some Pure Truth. It’s the furthest thing from it.
“What in his past has convinced you, other than his speeches, that he’s ready to be president?”
Pray tell, bucslim, what EVER convinces you that a man is ready to be president? Did you think Bush was “ready” in 2000? Why, because he came from that family, and because he was governor of Texas? Big fucking deal.
What makes a man “ready” to be president? Can you answer that? I’ll be damned if I can. MOST presidents grow up in the job. But yes, Obama is “ready” to accept the challenge because he’s clearly A) gotten things done on the local and national level, in the senate as well as back home, (and you want particulars, there’s whole websites out there devoted to his record. Again, it isn’t my fault if you can’t take the time to GO AND LOOK). B) he has the judgement, character, and temperament that fits a statesman. C) he’s an intelligent and thoughtful man, obviously, with some sort of vision. And this vision is what we need to get back on track in this country. You don’t like it, too bad… as I’ve said before, it’s time to drop the 80s/90s political crap and join the rest of us in the 21st century. “Obama too liberal” my ass. That old argument doesn’t cut it anymore. Stop living in the polarized politics of our parents and grandparents, bucslim. We’re in our 40s now, it’s time to grow up and realize that the world has changed.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:36 am
Sedulous:
Sorry, but I really do get sick of this nonsense:
“My biggest concern with Obama is that we know nothing about him except he’s good at getting up in front of people and talking.”
Then what you’ve just done is prove that you have your head in the sand and can’t take the time to investigate and LISTEN. Your statement is that of a piss-poor citizen who won’t take the time to open up a political journal or even a goddamn Newsweek magazine or a decent newspaper, or just cruise onto Obama’s own web site to FIND OUT what he stands for and who he is.
Note the “we” in your statement. Well don’t include ME or others who support Obama in your collective ignorance, Sedulous. I support Obama because I looked into the man’s record and found out who he was long ago, and I found there what I thought this country needed after the worst 8 years in my adult memory, if not my ENTIRE memory. I don’t “worship” Obama nor am I some “Kool Aid” drinker who believes what a particular party has doled out to him. I have a brain and use advanced thought processes to make my decisions. But you, by parroting this bullshit right-wing nonsense that we don’t “know” Obama, have simply showed yourself up to be in neglect of your thought processes and closed off to reality.
The only question I have is, is it just polarized and cemented political dogma making you this way, or is it the cynicism too many of us have sunk to, in general? Maybe you can answer that.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:54 am
bucslim:
“And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?”
Let’s begin with decades of conservative votes against *every manner* of legislation meant to address entrenched racist policies at the governmental as well as private levels in this country. And then let’s talk about repeated attacks by the right wing on Affirmative Action; attacks not only meant to correct its excesses but clearly meant to undermine it completely and begin the process of rolling it back entirely. Let’s talk about a party that has essentially written off the African-American community at every turn, who instead of choosing to listen to that community to hear its grievances, chooses to ignore them and occasionally (at most) lecture said community on its sense of “entitlement” as though the black community should just shut up and accept the fact that whatever’s wrong with it is its own fault. Meanwhile, we have nearly a quarter of the population of adult male blacks in prison, and a larger segment of the black population still lives in poverty than any other racial group. And what do Republicans have to say about this? Nothing. They just continue to pass more “tough on crime” legislation and continue to foster a political worldview that says if you have a problem, you need to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.
I think the fact that you asked that question, pal, indicates how out of touch you’ve become. C’mon. Join me in walking away from the conservative bullshit. *I* found out it was wrong and full of lies in the 1990s. It’s time for you to do the same, if you want to call yourself an informed and intelligent citizen.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Randall ~ I know that was for Bucslim, but I gotta ask…
Let me get this straight, being against affirmative action equals being pro-slavery?
And as for “instead of choosing to listen to that community to hear its grievances, chooses to ignore them and occasionally (at most) lecture said community on its sense of “entitlement” as though the black community should just shut up and accept the fact that whatever’s wrong with it is its own fault,” You might have us confused with Bill Cosby, a rather smart black man who doesn’t fall in line with your view of things as they are.
“Meanwhile, we have nearly a quarter of the population of adult male blacks in prison, and a larger segment of the black population still lives in poverty than any other racial group.” Are you seriously blaming anyone except the folks involved?
Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting people to be of assistance in their own success or failure. Of course there are outside forces that impact their lives that they can’t control, but you’re acting as if no strides have been made, as if every minority is still oppressed, as if all hope is lost, as if government could or should have all the answers and help every single person succeed. In this country you’re guaranteed the *right* to persue happiness, not have it handed to you. Look around, people get out of poverty every day, and they do it mostly on their own, they don’t need you, Randall, or Obama to do it for them.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
rushfan:
“Let me get this straight, being against affirmative action equals being pro-slavery?”
Ha ha, cute kid. Nice try. I was clear enough in what I said. Don’t try to paint me as some off-the-wall nut. The stuff will spray all over you and you can’t wash that shit out.
As I said, the opposition to affirmative action has consistently gone BEYOND merely addressing its excesses. And that, yes, is what equals a kind of racism. “Pro-slavery” was the original poster’s words, not mine. But they’ll do for the kind of subtle racism proferred by the right wing.
“Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie.”
HA HA HA! Wonderful! You haven’t a CLUE as to who you’re talking to, rushfan. I was a conservative probably BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. I had conservative credentials that you could only dream of, if you’d want to dream about such absurd things. Want a list? I’d be happy to provide.
“Stuck in the sixties” my ass. “Hippie” my ass. You’re a deluded youngster who has no clue to the reality of the world out there. Clearly you like to think you have said clue. But worshipping Rush Limbaugh isn’t a qualification for it, rushfan. And neither is mouthing the dogma of a failed party and a failed system and worldview, dear.
“…you’re acting as if no strides have been made, as if every minority is still oppressed, as if all hope is lost”
I AM? And where, pray tell, did I say ANY of this? (In fact I believe nothing of the kind).
YOU, in fact, are pretending that all is rosy or headed to rosey-ness. Nice delusion, and I wink at it. Keep it up. It’s the way to keep one’s head stuck in the ground. Things are always happier that way, if you pretend the world is always getting better just because some moron on the radio tells you so, rushfan.
“…as if government could or should have all the answers and help every single person succeed.”
Typical right-wing trick, re-inventing what I said to say something ENTIRELY different. In fact I said NOTHING OF THE KIND and do NOT believe this at all.
I was there, pulling bullshit debating tricks like that, again, BEFORE YOU WERE BORN rushfan. Nice try, but it doesn’t work on me.
LOOK AROUND YOURSELF, rushfan. Yup, some people get out of poverty on their own, sure thing, Tex. Many, however, are held down by ignorance, racism, and any number of other gamings of the system against them.
You forget or do not know that I come from a very different background from you. (at least, as I recall from what you’ve said about yourself on this site, in the past). I *know* from personal, first hand experience how the centers of power both economic and governmental work in this country—I’ve been there. You’re a deluded child if you think much of the system as it is is not gamed against the common, working class citizen.
NONE of this is about government “doing it for us” or “handing” happiness to us. I don’t believe that in the least. What I DO know and believe, however, is that there is a VASTLY unfair field out there that most people are forced to play on–and many of them, like you, don’t even know it or can’t even see it. You’ve bought into a bullshit distorted view of reality and there are people right now sitting somewhere laughing *heartily* at your fervent support for the way they want things to be and stay.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:01 pm
DUDE, you said it, don’t give me that cute, kid shit, old timer.
““And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?”
Let’s begin with decades of conservative votes against *every manner* of legislation meant to address entrenched racist policies at the governmental as well as private levels in this country. And then let’s talk about repeated attacks by the right wing on Affirmative Action.” You were more than comfortable flowing straight from slavery to affirmative action.
Also, I love how you brag about your time spent as a “conservative.” So what, Randall. You’re on the wrong side of history now and that’s all that matters. You’re smug and smart and I expect more from you. I fear your years in liberal academia have made you who you are. You are self-righteous and dismissive and happy to sit in your office and lecture us about the real world from your comfy chair about how we’re all responsible for poverty and oppression of minorities. And you call me and Bucslim out of touch.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
280. rushfan…Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie.
****
rushfan, just as a point of actual history here. Randall referred to himself as being in his 40’s. That would make him *far* too young to have been a hippie.
The hippie’s were born in the late 40’s to mid 50’s, no later, some earlier.
Randall loses by a decade.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
segue ~ Randall’s mind transcends time. He thinks like a hippie ergo he’s a hippie. He’s a lib who used to be conservative so he thinks he knows it all, that he can somehow represent both sides and therefore gain some credibility. I know how old he is, just as he knows how old I am. He’s regressing from the progress I *thought* we had made.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I see no point in discussing color of skin. It in all honesty dosent make us any different in side. We just look different. that being said, i am a US citizen, and i will be voteing for Obama. Not because he is a black man, but because i agree with his views, and i believe that this country needs to change, and MAKE PEACE WITH THE WORLD!!! No more war, no more sending my family and friends over seas to protect the oil that G.W. Bush is so tied into. You realize that his family is very very very close with the afgani (sp?) leader, and very tied in with all the oil companies in the country. John McCain is wanting to continue the war for OVER 100 YEARS!! Yeah he said it in a speech or two. I will not stay in this country is McCain is voted in. I wont do another 4 years of the same crap, i wont watch my country go down the drain. I have done my part for the change, i donate to Obama, i go to his rallies in my town, and i will vote for him. IF McCAIN WINS I WILL MOVE TO CANADA, maybe mexico sence i dont like the snow…
hahahaha..Democrats. Randall do you feel happy she’s on your side?
McCain 08
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:30 pm
p.s. His lengthy absense tells me he’s writing a lengthy tretise about how wrong I am and how right he is. My spidey senses tell me it will include quotes from my posts with eloquent responses as well as many asterisks for dramatic effect.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:32 pm
rushfan:
“Also, I love how you brag about your time spent as a “conservative.” So what, Randall.”
So what, honey? Been there, done that, that’s what “so what.” I know what I did, where I was, the things I was involved with, the people I was involved with, how close I was to the beating heart of the movement. I’m secure in those credentials more than you can ever know, ashamed of them as I know am.
“You’re on the wrong side of history now”
Always the people who truly ARE on the wrong side of history are the first to accuse others of being so.
You’ve mistakenly pegged me as some left-wing elitist. You haven’t the faintest clue how wrong you are. I’d love to educate you on it, but I’m highly doubtful you’d *actually* listen. I know the mindset you’re exhibiting far too well.
“You’re smug and smart”
Guilty.
“and I expect more from you. I fear your years in liberal academia have made you who you are.”
HA HA HA! Another wonderful bit of nonsense.
Time will tell which one of us is right, rushfan. If you have the self-awareness and honesty of mind to recognize it.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:33 pm
callie:
Huh? Who? “She” is on MY side? To whom are you referring?
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
rushfan:
by the way, I was hating hippies and railing against them, AGAIN, before you were born. I still hate hippies. Calling me one really burns my ass. You’ll be hearing from my attorney, therefore.
Disrespectful brat.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Randall ~ If you can’t even ackowledge what every person in American knows, that colleges and universities are overwhelmingly liberal, than you’ve said it all, right there.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:38 pm
HIPPIE!
*sticking out my tongue and running away*
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:38 pm
calm down Randall..that wasn’t a personal attack, you’re just the most vocal Obama suppoerter on this site. I was referring to the poster who wrote what I quoted being on your side (surely you didn’t think I would write something that disjointed.) It was comment 262.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:40 pm
thats true Rush..MAN it’s hard to be a republican in college. did anyone see that Scrubs episode where they debate Iraq and Elliot stands up and proudly states she’s a conservative? That’s where I am now, but I did stay mum about in in school. I regret that.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
callie: go “independent”…that way no one will expect much from you.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Callie ~ You had me! I thought that was your post and dude I was disappointed. Use quotation marks, dude.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:46 pm
we need a “quote this” button. Get on that jamie
September 2nd, 2008 at 2:26 pm
If Obama loses its not because he’s black but because he’s a socialist. Not that there’s anything wrong with that (Scandanavia has a pretty good version of it). But Americans like spending money and are not very open to a big government trying to dictate how they should be spending. Someone has to pay for all the goodies Obama is promising (in addition to Bush’s donations to the rich over the past 8 years), be it now or in the future. I’m not convinced Obama’s current ideas will raise enough money to even come close. And most Americans would agree with me that higher taxes suck.
But then again, maybe there is actually real CHANGE in the wind.
September 2nd, 2008 at 2:30 pm
That’s not change, I farted. Trust me, you’ll know real change when you hear it. It will include education reform, dealing with social security, reducing government spending, dealing with America’s prison problem intelligently, tort reform, none of these things are even being addressed. No one’s even asking.
September 2nd, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I agree with everything rushfan said, in fact, I think I’m falling in love with her, and disagree with most of what Randall said, so there.
Randall – dude – bro – homie, listen, you’re right I was bringing down the douchenozzle from before, not comparing the two candidates. You’ve got to agree that I was right on and those peeps were out of line. Can’t you see what I’m saying? For God sake that dude was putting him up there with Lincoln and Jefferson!!! Those two idiots couldn’t be more full of shit than the outhouse pit in the park after Memorial Day!
Now I gotta run, apparently my head is stuck up my right wing ass.
As for rushfan – meet me behind the bleachers after school.
September 2nd, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Unless you’re a dude.
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:21 pm
rushfan, I was trying to be sarcastic by saying that there was “real CHANGE in the wind” but I guess I did a poor job. I do agree with you. All the important reforms you mentioned are pressing. But they are also all political hot potatoes and nothing will move forward until things break down and there’s no alternative but to have tangible reform. Obama won’t change much, especially with the lousy partisan job Congress will likely continue to do even if he is elected. But I do think he is the lesser of two evils coz at least he publicly recognizes the demage Bush’s policies have done over the past 8 years. If any reforms are actually going to happen, it’s more likely going to be under Obama than McCain. Both candidates will do a similarly fine job (better than Bush). But Obama will bring with him new faces with fresh ideas while McCain will likely retain many of Bush’s people (or God, no more Cheney please). Plus I’m very uncomfortable with having an unbalanced supreme court for the next 30 years, which is a distinct possibility if McCain wins.
September 2nd, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Bucslim-“Panic! – I guess those redneck Republicans were duped into thinking JC Watts wasn’t ‘colored’ in your terms, when he got elected from that redneck state of Oklahoma. And I guess that Colin Powell bleached his skin when he was Secretary of State. And you’ll probably come back to tell me that Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas were Uncle Toms who betrayed their race when they had the audacity to be conservative, not to mention Thomas Sowell and Alan Keyes.
Your post 267 is one of the most ignorant, stupid and racist posts I’ve seen on this website. Just because you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town doesn’t mean the rest of us behave that way. According to you, we’re supposed to vote for Obama BECAUSE he’s black. Sorry, Jesse Jackson already tried that.”
But a black president running is different than Colin Powell, or Condi Rice running for something. The presidential running takes up all of the nighttime television for several months, and steals all publicity from everything else prior to and post the election. The whole country can see it, and I hate to tell you, but there are way WAY more racist people than you realize. America as a whole isn’t ready. I mean white men are still afraid to call an ‘African American’ ‘Black’ in a public setting. And how would anything in congress really work if half the members lean toward whatever the president says, because he is black, and don’t want to be known as the ‘African dream stomper’ and the other half leans away from him because they are trying too hard to not agree with everything he says, via his blackness, or are actually racist.
And what? Panic wasn’t saying vote for him because he was black, he was just trying to shed some light on the concept with what he knows from his own town. My town is very much like his. And like we said, America as a whole isn’t ready. You are right, just because we have some rednecks in our town who are racist, doesn’t mean the rest of America is….. but America(all of America) isn’t ready. He wasn’t being racist…
but you where. “you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town”
not all of us are inbred white trash here in the south, and most of us can actually count above twenty, without using our toes…… ya racist.
-Kase
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
mvenges, no, I got you, I thought it was pretty clear that I was being sarcastic.
I thought you made some descent points, except for the obligatory Bush-bashing. I’m not all up in the guy’s junk, but he’s not the anti-christ any more than Obama is the Messiah or McCain is my grandpa John, well McCain may be…anyhoo…yeah, I’m a chick, bucslim, you know that. 
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
I’m tempted to slink back to offer this food for thought to those who are tepidly pro-Obama or tepidly anti. (The rest of you are too far over one side or the other to make any difference.)
It intrigues me how similar in many respects is Obama to Tony Blair during the latter’s run-up to the British premiership. The same doubts were thrown around about his relative youth and lack of experience, about him being high on charisma and vitality, and little else. It might also be said he won because voters were disillusioned with a tired and ineffectual right-wing opposition despite its greater experience in office.
In the end his popularity waned, which tends to be par for the course (Churchill, Thatcher). But he had the sense to quit while more or less still on top, and is still active and respected in various spheres in a way that somewhat parallels Jimmy Carter.
What intrigued me was the often ungrudging support and admiration he won over the course of his terms from so many of our less than died-in-the-wool right-wing fellow British friends, not to mention the voting public at large. These friends, like myself (I am essentially of a mildly leftish liberal turn) would never, ever have voted for a traditional dogmatic Socialist regime. Never in a month of Sundays.
I don’t want to push this comparison. There is a world of difference of course between transatlantic politics and publics, the roles of PM and president, and that of the two nations in the modern world. It’s really just offering a hint, perhaps even a hope, than things underway may turn out a lot more positive than election time neurosis tends to suggest. (Assuming Obama is elected.) Also that *playing safe* isn’t necessarily the best option.
Randall,
If you think people will understand your trajectory from conservative to your present liberal stance and accept it as personal and sincere, I fear you may be banging your head against a wall. My feeling is it needs someone who is old and creaking and has undergone the same process themselves, as I have. At least nobody could accuse me (as they do you) of institutional influence. I come from a comfortable middle-class background and have been self-employed or freelance all my life as well as a rabid individualist. These attributes are considered to be the traditional hallmark of a born right-winger! People only understand the standard evolution: start out a raving left wing student looney and reach the grave as a boring right wing fart. That’s what everyone expects and accepts without question. I began my political life with a strong belief that ruling-class conservative paternalism was best for the country. Mixed with that was an undying hatred (to this day) for dogmatic (rather than intelligent and minimal) left-wing state intervention. Ultimately I came to consider that both extremes can do good in their way, but both are tied in to powerful interests which control them: the tail wagging the dog syndrome. Wherever you move in politics you tend to win some and lose some, but it seems to me the liberal centre is point where least is lost. With his pragmatism (a British socialist leader working with Dubya???), probably Blair is the elected British leader who has managed to come closest to delivering those goods in practical terms during my lifetime.
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:32 pm
My husband is a retired Air Force Major. He served four years in the Viet Nam conflict (and other countries we weren’t supposed to be in). He’d get finished with one rotation and immediately sign-up for another.
He has every medal the Air Force awards, mostly several of them (I don’t even remember how many Distinguished Flying Crosses he has!).
While he, like I, admire McCain’s service, he will not vote for him.
His reasons are many and extremely intelligent, but can be boiled down to this: McCain’s judgment is flawed and flighty, it changes with the wind and whether or not McCain remembers what he said last time.
I can go with that.
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Well first off I will be voting for Obama.
For the sole basis that I believe as a libertarian Obama will work for more “rights” and to preserve the “rights” of the populous
I feel McCain would trample on more rights.
I also feel Obama will better the economy.
As far a skin color goes I’d vote for a Purple President over McCain / another Bush.
That’s it Peanut for President!!! [Jeff Dun-Ham reference]
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
For the sole basis that I believe as a libertarian Obama will work for more “rights” and to preserve the “rights” of the populous
edit. before I get disputed.
I am a libertarian. Therefore from MY libertarian views… Obama is more rights friendly.
I know Obama is a liberal. As my highly conservative friend would point out (who is voting for McCain based on that he is A. a Conservative and B. Devote Christian. Which is true for both my friend and McCain them.
September 2nd, 2008 at 8:04 pm
We already had a peanut for president. Jimma Carter. (sorry, I realize you were making some sort of vantrilaquist joke or something)
And why do you keep saying libertarian Obama? Dude, Obama wouldn’t even call himself a libertarian, he’s a flaming big-government anti-suv turn down your a/c and cling to your guns and god friend of Bill Ayers Harvard-educated Liberal!
September 2nd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
304. Anon…I come from a comfortable middle-class background and have been self-employed or freelance all my life as well as a rabid individualist…
****
Good God! I knew we had more in common than we’d discovered so far!
I’ll fill you in, but this is getting to be a bit like “separated at birth”.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Brutally- McCain ain’t conservative, just ask Rush Limbaugh, Anne Coulter and any other conservative.
Kase – now I’m a racist for calling someone in-bred white trash? I thought I was a racist because I’m not voting for Obama. Funny how no one called me a racist when I didn’t vote for Jesse Jackson.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:40 pm
My 304,
dyed-in-the-wool, not “died-in-the-wool”, before tempyra kicks me in the spelling-bee again!
It does though remind me of the famous response by MP Dennis Healey to criticism by opponent Geoffrey Howe in the British House of Commons, which Healey said was “like being savaged by a dead sheep”.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Sorry, Tempyra,
Of course, you’re an Upper Case person like me. (I’ve got to watch it with you, lest you ever look in here.)
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Oh I have eyes everywhere
I have been reading this topic, although I don’t really have a view on it.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:14 am
As a non-American, I’ve kept out of this so far, but here goes.
1) If this question even needs to be asked, then the answer is probably “no”.
2) Is it written somewhere in US history that “all men are created equal”? If so, then what’s the problem? If not, then why proclaim it?
September 3rd, 2008 at 3:07 am
Like others have said, this question doesn’t need to be asked. Obama is who America needs now in this desperate time, and he’s who I’ll be voting for. He’s the only one in a position to bring this country out of the depths that Bush has driven us into.
And Jill W.- post #33 (I know, way back) you first say that race shouldn’t have anything to do with it, then the rest of your post is all about Obama’s race. Care to explain?
September 3rd, 2008 at 3:12 am
I’ve also got one question to ask fellow Americans here- has anyone considered voting McCain solely because you’ve completely given up on this country and are ready to see it die? (I have.)
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:25 am
jasontimmer ~ How is he “the only one in a position to bring this country out of the depths that Bush has driven us into. ” Exactly what position do you think he’s in? He’s just another politician, people, he’s not going to be the Savior-in-Chief or the Messiah of the United States of America. If he does *shudder* get elected, just watch how fast he drops the kook fringe left-wing base and runs toward the center. He’s already trying to do it now, so he’ll appeal to moderate voters. Just look at your precious Democratic congress. What exactly has Pelosi accomplished? Hmmm, can’t think of anything. Lefties are all talk and no action. After all, if they solved the problems they perpetually run on fixing, what would they run on?
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:35 am
I can’t keep up on these things with my current schedule… now I have meetings all morning long and won’t be free until after lunch. *sigh.*
What can I say? rushfan, stop hating liberals, they just want a sane and civilized country to live in, and they don’t agree with you on what IS sane and civilized. YOU want a sane and civilized country, yourself, no doubt, but I got news for you–ever since I was a little boy, I’ve seen this place grow for the most part LESS sane. Civilized I can’t speak to, it’s harder to gauge that.
And actually I’m sick of these old definitions, liberal and conservative. They’re meaningless today. I look around and I don’t see the conservatives that I took to be conservatives when I was young—Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley and such. There’s no one like them, not even close, and I’m not talking in terms of gravity and character, but in terms of philosophy and ideas. The vast majority of people calling themselves “conservatives” today, in fact, would be detested by Goldwater, I’m sure.
And the same goes with “liberal.” The term that *I* grew up with certainly wouldn’t have described Bill Clinton, say, and doesn’t describe Barack Obama.
Left and Right have changed over the decades, but many people (rushfan, etc) are still clinging to the old definitions that just don’t work anymore.
Sadly I have no more time, have to go. The upside of this is, I have little doubt that come November we’ll have a President Obama. I certainly hope this comes to pass.
I was sitting in the backyard with my fourteen year old daughter recently, and I told her, “you know, you’re going to be seeing history soon… the first black man elected president.”
My neighbor Mike then said to her, “it’ll be history either way. Either you’ll see the first black man elected president, or you’ll see the end of your democracy.” (Because 8 years of Bush and corporate control of the media has already driven it to the brink)
A tad facetious, but not all that much.
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:57 am
Randall ~ Conservative and Liberal are common terms used in politics and it’s only Liberals who don’t like being called Liberals because your base is so insane. I’m proud to be called a conservative, mainly because I don’t feel I have to pass any litmus test to be such: I am not religious, I am not against gay marriage, I don’t fit the mold, and that’s okay. Liberals, on the other hand, are far less tolerant-just try to be a pro-life Democrat-there’s no room for you at the convention. The party of tolerance and “choice” is the one with the least room for deviation. No wonder you don’t want to be called a liberal. But you admit you’re a democrat, so if I refer to you as a democrat are you gonna cry about that too?
Have a great day at school. And tell your daughter I said “hi!” I bet we’d all have fun at a bbq by the lake. I’ll bring the Dos Equis.
September 3rd, 2008 at 6:41 am
So Randall – the end of your democracy. Really? McCain runs on the platform of ending our democracy. Is he going to set up a dictatorship? Appoint himself King? Czar? So he might be ‘voted’ in, then he’ll dismantle the election process?
The way I see it it’s the other way around. Liberals are always telling people what they can and can’t do. Businesses aren’t allowed to make money, particularly small buisnesses because they are taxed and regulated out of business. The only free speech is their brand of free speech. Rich people are the scum of society. My worth as a human being is viewed from the standpoint of how ‘green’ I am. Fairness is defined as taking money from hardworking people and giving it to people who don’t. And finally, the government is nothing more than an entitlement program.
That kind of over the top, the sky is falling crap plays right into what I’ve said all along. It’s that sort of smug, moral higher ground bullshit that Democrat Liberals have said from day one in this thread.
Not voting for Obama – you’re a racist.
Obama’s accomplishments will be greater than Lincoln and Jefferson.
Obama is the best presidential candidate ever.
Republicans favor slavery.
McCain’s presidency will usher in the end of democracy.
My personal feelings on this matter are essentially the same as Pete Townsend’s – meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The day I put my hopes and dreams in an elected politician, no matter what race he/she is, instead of myself and my family and friends is the day democracy dies. That’s the true conservative way.
(cue patriotic music as bucslim rides into the sunset in his gas guzzling 1969 Pink Cadillac with all leather cow interior, smoking Camel non-filters, eating quarter pounders with cheese and tossing the non bio-degradable styrofoam containers right out the window as he runs over baby seals)
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:00 am
an excerpt from an article from last night
“The Republican gathering also featured Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, the Democrat-turned-independent who was the 2000 Democratic vice presidential nominee. “I’m here to support John McCain because country matters more than party,” said Lieberman, who gave the night’s featured prime-time address.”
Even the Democrats don’t believe in Obama. Hillary smeared him for months and then threw herself at him like a cheerleader to the quarterback hoping he’d roofie her and she’d wake up VP.
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:04 am
a link to the story before anyone starts hounding me for sources
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/politics/bal-te.gop03sep03,0,381979.story
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:58 am
At least you guys are keeping me a good chuckle for my money and keeping it “light-ish”. I expected a lot more poo.
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:00 am
Cedestra ~ LOL. A lot more poo. I like that.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:35 am
I’m English and think Americans mainly will embrace him because he is black and they want to prove they are not racist, unfortunately, I don’t think he will win on merit but purely because of his skin colour. I for one would not like a black or asian person running britain nor would i like a white person running Kenya or Ethiopia unless the country was legitimately owned by the country from which that white person was from, i.e India in the days when it was a British territory.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:13 am
Callie:
“Even the Democrats don’t believe in Obama.”
Joe Lieberman is NOT a democrat. He is, to put it charitably, an independent. I’d have other titles for him that are less neutral, but we’ll leave it at that.
“Hillary smeared him for months and then threw herself at him like a cheerleader to the quarterback hoping he’d roofie her and she’d wake up VP.”
Nonsense. Politics aren’t played that way. When you’re trying to win a nomination, you attack the front runner or your chief rival. This is to be expected. Then, whoever gets the nomination, you support that person if you’re interested in remaining a loyal member of the party. That’s that. Republicans do the same thing all the time. It’s the way the game is played.
Let’s not get silly about this.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:27 am
370. bucslim: ~’cause he an asshole (asshole) odee-oh-dee oh A S S H O L E!~
I had to, sorry. It just…flowed.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:36 am
he’s certainly not a conservative.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:52 am
Wow. What a bunch of short-sighted blowhards. Conservative? Liberal? Why the hell does any of that matter? Can anyone here look me in the eyes and tell me the country is better off now than it was 8 years ago? Can anybody look anywhere and say that with a straight face?
The simple fact of the matter is that McCain supports Bush’s policies, foreign, domestic and economic. His voting record indicates that he voted pro-Bush policies 90-95% of the time for the last two terms. It is largely these policies that are responsible for the reprehensible state of this country: inflation skyrocketing, housing market tanked, corporations and conglomerates swimming in flabbergasting record profit margins while the average American scrapes the couch cushion to buy gas to get to work, the gov’t infiltrating our personal lives like never before, an expensive and needless war that to this day is still raging…I could go on and on.
My question: Why, if you know that the former administration’s policies didn’t work, would you elect a man and a platform that is assured to continue those same policies into the next 4 years? It’s logic. Obama may not necessarily be the ideal man for the job, but he is certainly the lesser of two evils. Don’t let your blind devotion to your party decide whether or not to dump the country in the crapper.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:04 am
bucslim:
“So Randall – the end of your democracy. Really? McCain runs on the platform of ending our democracy. Is he going to set up a dictatorship? Appoint himself King? Czar? So he might be ‘voted’ in, then he’ll dismantle the election process?”
Cute, pinhead, but you know better. Or you ought to know better. During the Bush administration’s tenure we’ve seen the first withdraw of Habeas Corpus; the anti-American and intrusive “Patriot Act;” the gathering of unprecedented powers within the Executive Branch; (as well as a recalcitrant Executive Branch which ignores and steps over congressional oversight and protests, not to mention law) and, at least when it was controlled by Republicans, a congress all too willing to roll over and allow the President to do as he pleased with little or no oversight.
Not to mention the fact that there’s every indication and a great deal of evidence indicating that the Republican party flat-out stole the last two presidential elections, including the use of tricks, disenfranchisement of voters, and other less publicized means.
Our democracy is a fine balance of the separation of powers. And it has *not* been served at all well by the Bush administration—though this also began *before* Bush ever took office.
But it also isn’t merely about the presidency getting more powerful (it has been, since WWII, despite a brief period of drawback following Watergate). It’s also about the nature of our society. The media has become a corporate-controlled paper tiger, and the American people *themselves* have become less inclined towards liberty and individuality and even political freedom itself in the last three decades. If you don’t see this, I advise you to peek out from under that large rock you’re living beneath. Some social issues have “gone left” as it were–homosexuality has a greater acceptance today, and it might be argued that women have greater opportunities (certainly seems that way with Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin now) and certainly when we see a black man who has the nomination of a major party, we can say there’s been some progress on racial issues as well. But at the same time we’ve seen a vast increase in the power of the whacko-and-tyrannical religious right and a huge tendency overall towards restrictiveness and exclusion and loss of privacy in our culture.
“The way I see it it’s the other way around. Liberals are always telling people what they can and can’t do.”
This is the way a teenager sees political philosophies. Every time I hear your rhetoric on this issue, I get the distinct impression that you simply never grew up. And that you think we’re still fighting against radical liberals from the sixties.
“Businesses aren’t allowed to make money, particularly small buisnesses because they are taxed and regulated out of business.”
Don’t talk to me about the burden of taxation on business; I’m from New York–I know it first hand. But New York, and what you’re railing against, are Old School. You ought, however, to explain how it was that under Bill Clinton (I never liked him myself, but I honestly acknowledge what he did) we managed record growth and job creation, and balanced budgets.
Only a softheaded tool (or off-their-nut libertarians) believes that ALL taxes and regulation are bad. The question is how much and for what reason.
“The only free speech is their brand of free speech.”
hmmm… how so?
“Rich people are the scum of society.”
How many have you known?
“My worth as a human being is viewed from the standpoint of how ‘green’ I am.”
And praytell, what’s wrong with that? Do you not feel you have some responsibility to the rest of humanity and to the biosphere that allows you to exist?
“Fairness is defined as taking money from hardworking people and giving it to people who don’t.”
Sure. Okay.
“Obama’s accomplishments will be greater than Lincoln and Jefferson.”
Well please remember, I never said that. I thought it was nutty too.
“Obama is the best presidential candidate ever.”
Never said that either, nor do I believe it.
“Republicans favor slavery.”
Republicans have stood for and stand for a lot of suspiciously racist things. Don’t like it, too bad. That’s the record.
“McCain’s presidency will usher in the end of democracy.”
It would likely be the next step pal.
“The day I put my hopes and dreams in an elected politician, no matter what race he/she is, instead of myself and my family and friends is the day democracy dies. That’s the true conservative way.”
What a lovely fantasy you live in. I wish, myself, that that’s what conservatism was, but it isn’t, and what we’re dealing with has got nothing to do with conservatism. What you’re actually saying is that you can ignore what goes on in politics because you think it shouldn’t matter. Laughable. Regardless of your political stance, the fact is that we live in a mega-nation governed by representatives of our supposed interests, but what it is in theory and what it is in practice are two entirely different things.
Certainly the Republican party has drifted FAR away from the libertarian views you’re touting, and now stands for as much big government as you claim the left stands for.
You like to make a joke about this shit, and sometimes it’s funny… but the fact is that down deep it isn’t funny at all. It’s sad and tragic and in the end, you’ll get what you deserve if you bury your head in the sand of nonsense that you’ve buried it in.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:10 am
Slickwilly:
Thank you. Naturally I agree with everything you said, 100%.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:20 am
Johnny English, (325),
“I for one would not like a black or asian person running britain nor would i like a white person running Kenya or Ethiopia”
An Amazonian indian as president of Brazil then? Inuits running Canada? Abos for Oz. Maori for Kiwi. And I believe I’m right in thinking that would make bushmen the rightful political inheritors of the southern sector of Africa. Oh, and might it also entail a little matter of neither McCain or Obama being qualified for the presidential race (pun intended)? Or did whites, zulus and bantus come along afterwards and *legitimately own* all the nations and territories those original inhabitants used to occupy? Have you actually asked THEM? While you’re about it, try asking the legitimate native inhabitants of West Irian too.
So you’d rather have a piss-poor Anglo-Saxon running Britain than a better-qualified descendant from Carribean immigrants or a better British-born Asian, eh? Well, fucked if I would. A few top British soccer teams took that attitude. White players only, please, we’re British. Count how many there are now on the fingers of no hands and ask yourself why they changed.
Were we but mole rats (blind), no such question would even arise. Nothing but *best mole-rat for the job* in that case.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:26 am
Callie, I will have to support Randall on that point. Roll back the clock about a half a year ago and you will see the jibes taken at McCain by Guliani, Romney, et al. The nominees clamor to the top and basically whomever raises the most money wins. Then, the losers turn around and support the winner 100%. It’s happened with every election since, I’d guess the latter half of the 20th century, if not earlier.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:29 am
re: 325. If Obama wins because of his skin color, it’s not because America wants to look color-blind, it’s because enough pro-black people rallied together to make it happen. Your statement is smelly and full of poo. I expected this from others, but not from you. You disappoint me, sir.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:30 am
All I heard was blah blah stole the last two elections blah blah expensive and needless war. The same old tired liberal, sorry, Democrat bullshit. Guess what? The surge is working in Iraq (why else do you not see it on the news anymore-the news is too good to report) and Bush won fair and square, get over it.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:31 am
Randall,
“You like to make a joke about this shit, and sometimes it’s funny… but the fact is that down deep it isn’t funny at all. It’s sad and tragic and in the end, you’ll get what you deserve if you bury your head in the sand of nonsense that you’ve buried it in.”
No it isn’t at all funny deep down, and the profoundest tragedy is that if enough bury their heads in the sand we shall ALL OF US get what THEY deserve. That’s the interlocking reality of *globalisation*.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:35 am
Cedestra, I think a little different this year was Hillary was actually praising *McCain* in the primaries in her attempt to discredit Obama. The good news is McCain can use all that crap in awesome commercials!
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:42 am
Cedestra, (334),
Disappoints me too, but sadly does not surprise. I do not suppose, and never have, that all my fellow-countrymen are white (double meaning intended). *Sir* is not obligatory when addressing an Englishman, by the way, but may however be applied with a ladle-full of heavy sarcasm (as by the wits of the Regency).
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 am
Randall ~ Assumption on my part, I guess. Bill O’Reilly’s a registered Independent, too. You are aweful quick to defend dems and bash republicans.
Which party wants to implement the Fairness Doctrine to silence it’s critics? Which party wants to penalize corporations for so-called “windfall profits?” Which party has positioned itself so that it would benefit from defeat in Iraq? Which party’s leadership credited Iran’s “good will” with our success from the surge instead of our brave troops and Iraqi soldiers? Which party is a slave of the teacher’s unions and won’t even consider use of vouchers to empower parents?
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 am
rushfan:
By the way, I have NEVER “admitted” I’m a democrat. I am, in fact, a registered Independent.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 am
wow. i’m a time-traveler now.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Go democrats for sure! If McCain is voted to be our next president then the economy will be completely shot for another 8 years! Ugh, it sickens me to think of that happening.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
A Nun O Miss: McCain would be pleased to know that if he wins he will get 8 years instead of 4. Wow, Republicans really are powerful.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Quick, name one piece of legislation that Sen. Obama has authored or co-written since he has been in the U.S. Senate.
Cricket, Cricket.
Oh, that’s right, the answer is none. Quite a record of accomplishment the junior senator from Illinois has compiled during his tenure. Other than being over the age of 35 and an excellent public speaker, his qualifications to be the president of the United States are thin at best.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Its an almost guarantee that if McCain is voted to be our president, he will surely be voted in again after 4 years…no thanks to the south.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
rushfan:
Which party wants to outlaw abortion? Which party wants to bring the teaching of “creation science” in our schools? Which party has stood for the intrusive and un-American “Patriot Act?” Which party has stood idly by while George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have run roughshod over the Constitution and refused to do its job in terms of congressional oversight on the actions of the Executive Branch? Which party continually gives enormous tax breaks to huge corporations and other power brokers while burdening the middle class with higher and higher taxes? Which party has been responsible for the dangerously widening gap between rich and poor? Which party practically sanctioned the sort of corrupt double dealing by companies like Enron? Which party has allowed endless conflicts of interest over the last eight years (Halliburton, etc.) to go unchecked? Which party gave us a president who has ruined our overseas standing and reputation and driven our economy into the ground? Which party supported that president’s incredible strategic blunders? Which party waves the flag in our face as a means of distracting us, calling anyone who disagrees with them “haters of America” and other blather? Which party is responsible for the NEEDLESS deaths of thousands of American soldiers and thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians in a TOTALLY UNNECESSARY AND STUPID war that diverted our attention from the TRUE conflict we should have been fighting, in Afghanistan?
We could go on and on and on, ad nauseum.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Randall: “Which party has been responsible for the dangerously widening gap between rich and poor?” Answer: Democrats and that damn NAFTA.
A Nun O Miss: maybe since there are more voters in the North and West, you should blame them for who ends up as President.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Randall ~ I was seriously raising legitimate issues about the stances of the Democratic party. It seems you’re just rehashing the same old tired anti-war partisan crap. And I thought you weren’t even a Democrat, why the hostility?
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Which party has Keith Olberman?
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Which party has Babs Streisand?
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
My head’s buried in the sand? I thought it was stuck up my right wing ass!
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:46 pm
S.D. Schaffer:
WRONG!!
Bills co-written or written by Obama in the US Senate:
Global Poverty Act (S.2433)
Requires the President to develop and implement a comprehensive policy to cut extreme global poverty in half by 2015 through aid, trade, debt relief, and coordination with the international community, businesses and NGOs.
Legislative Transparency and Accountability Act (S. 230)
Strict bans on receiving gifts and meals from lobbyists; new rules to slow the revolving door between public and private sector service; and an end to the subsidized use of corporate jets.
Lugar-Obama Nonproliferation Legislation
Expands U.S. cooperation to destroy conventional weapons. It also expands the State Department’s ability to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction.
Obama also INTRODUCED some 113 bills while in the senate.
Get off it clown.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
rushfan:
“I was seriously raising legitimate issues about the stances of the Democratic party…”
*I* was SERIOUSLY raising legitimate issues about the SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP and out of touch Republican party which has lost ALL SENSE of perspective and totally lost its values! Why do you think I LEFT it? I was a member of the Republican party from the year I could VOTE, rushfan.
YOU are accusing ME of “partisan crap?” PLEASE.
and “anti-war?” Are you saying you were IN FAVOR of the war in Iraq? Pray tell us, young lady… WHY? What justification do you have for it? What did it accomplish? What USE was it? What did all those young men lay down their lives for?
Don’t get sanctimonious with ME about this war crap, rushfan. As I’ve said here before, I come from a military family. And THEY are the first goddamn ones to know that you don’t blindly support wars just because your country and your president is pushing them.
There was no earthly reason for that war in Iraq. It was stupid and wasteful from the get-go, the product of neo-conservative elitists like Wolfowitz who thought we could “bring democracy” to all of the Middle East if only we tried. And thousands of lives later and what do we have to show for it? NOTHING. Al Qaeda still out there, Bin Laden free, BILLIONS of dollars down the drain, our economy in a shambles, and the world hating us.
Pointless, useless, and wasteful! AFGHANISTAN and Al QAEDA should have been the focus. I said this ages ago here—I wanted to see Bin Laden’s head on a pike outside the capitol building! Okay, not really, but figuratively, it’s what should have come to pass. We should have never HEARD of the Taliban again! But they’ve been continually raiding and staging resurgences in Afghanistan ever since Bush blundered into Iraq and declared “mission accomplished.” But today the Taliban continues to commit atrocities–IN MANY INSTANCES AGAINST WOMEN who dare to ignore their insane religious invectives and “laws”–and all because WE haven’t put our focus where it SHOULD have been.
It was nice that you created that list of violence against women a while back—but does it not bother you in the least that at least ONE group is allowed to CONTINUE its violence against women out there in the world because WE who could have CRUSHED them did NOT, because we had to go and invade a country that had NOTHING to do with the attack on our shores?
Bothers me. I’d love to know why it doesn’t bother YOU.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Randall ~ Get off your fucking high horse. You’re in the majority, okay? I get it. I just don’t happen to believe that George Bush is evil. Sorry. We are in a global war on terrorism and Iraq is one front in that war. After 9/11 it was necessary to take any and all threats seriously. Actually, it was necessary before 9/11 but Clinton ignored all terrorist attacks from the embasy bombings to the USS Cole. The international community (not just the US) had intelligence that said Saddam had or was close to developing dangerous weapons. The UN passes how many resolutions? He used chemical weapons on his own people. We happen to be winning the war in Iraq. The soldiers you feel sorry for, I feel proud of. They know what their duty is and why they’re there. And they’re doing a fucking good job, too. Did you watch all of those brave Iraqi citizens risk their lives to vote? Well, I did. It’s funny, no, actually it’s a trajedy, that any good news or news of progress made in Iraq seems to be mysteriously not reported on the news. Well I for one don’t need the mainstream media to form my opinions for me and I sure as hell don’t need you to talk to me as if you know it all because you sure as hell don’t.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
And now for a moment of comedic relief during the Rushfan V. Randall political extravaganza…
Hillary Clinton, when asked by Tim Russert why she voted for the war in Iraq, said she “thought it was a vote to put inspectors back in”. The name of the resolution was “A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.” Ha, ha, ha…that might have fooled the voters in Arkansas but you are on a national stage now, missy. Anyway, Barak or John…both are better than Hillarious Clinton.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:39 pm
trojan-maaaaaan ~
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:50 pm
and another thing…Nobody is “for” war. Sometimes it is necessary to win the war to win the peace. The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all. They have the ability, they just use *amazing* restraint and don’t obliterate their enemy. And they’re still hated! So there goes y’alls theories about America being hated all over the world because of Bush. We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid. The war on terrorism is some tricky shit. We’re not fighting a country, we’re fighting an ideology. It sucks, but I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves or some other twit who thinks global warming is the biggest issue we face. It’s not. By a long shot. I for one don’t want to live under Sharia Law. How about you?
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:51 pm
# 352 Randall- neither S.2433 nor S.230 have been passed into law, according to Govtrak. The Lugar-Obama Non Proliferation legislation was signed by President Bush. So score one for you. I stand corrected.
I await your retraction.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Rushfan: I’m here all week…tip your bartenders and wait staff…drinks are free if you’re gambling.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Ohhh my god! I cant believe it .. Are theseguys racist or sumfin? He could be one of the best president.. you cannot judge people by their race you judge presidets by judging them on their job!
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Im always right!
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Wow. Well stated Sally. Expert use of the oft-ignored word “sumfin.”
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:27 pm
rushfan: akin to the word “sumbitch”
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Randall – Dude, I’m tired of explaining it to you. You’ve painted me with the wrong brush, and I resent that. I”m actively involved in my community and family and I care deeply about what goes on in Washington. It’s not a fantasy. Trust is another thing. I’m not in the least bit libertarian I’ve never brought up the subject of Ron Paul in any argument -and I’ve been a conservative Republican since I could vote because for the most part, they stand for the issues and policies that make the most sense to me. Your not going to change my mind just because the latest liberal wunderkind is close to being elected.
I’ll never understand your east coast elitism, the past couple of post seem as if you’re looking down your nose at my views. I’ve read all of your posts directed at myself very carefully. I make jokes to point out the Chicken Little nonsense you’re spouting. Lighten up dude, the sun’ll come up tomorrow, no matter what douchebag is in office. I just think you’re putting your trust in someone who’s promising the fricken moon, every politician does that.
I’m so done with this. I’m voting for that non-conservative McCain and positively out of the park conservative Palin.
rushfan – you’re amazing. Nice to have someone in here to help me carry the torch.
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
-bucslim
twas a joke fine sir. Don’t get all bent out of shape just because someone made a joke on the ‘your view’ involving a black person.
gotta get back to work, later days!
also..
U.S. Citizen votes don’t have alot of power in the end. The electoral college does. And my view is that greedy old white men will elect greedy old white men. therefore, until we get a good amount of greedy old africans, or greedy old women, we aren’t ready to have a different colored president.(tis a joke people, calm down)
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Rushfan:
You keep expounding on this idea that we are winning the war in Iraq. I ask you: who cares?! Why does it matter that we are winning or losing if the war was largely unjustified and without merit in the first place? Why does it matter that we are winning (a very vague term, by the way) if it cost the American taxpayers BILLIONS that could have been spent any number of other ways domestically are in the REAL war: Afghanistan? Not to mention that THOUSANDS of both American and Allied soldiers and THOUSANDS of Iraqi citizens have died because of it? Yes, Iraq now has some sort of quasi-democratic government in place, and (some) of the people are happy with us. But how long will this last? And at what cost? The sad thing is, when this tenuous democracy ultimately crumbles back to the primitive theocracies that preceeded it, the republicans will be pointing their fingers at the forthcoming administration rather than cast the shame on the actions of the leader that actualized it.
“So there goes y’alls theories about America being hated all over the world because of Bush. We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid…It sucks, but I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves…”
So you can honestly tell me that G.W.’s cowboy politics haven’t harmed our image in PREVIOUSLY FRIENDLY nations? That the utter arrogance of the U.S. in proceeding with a war condemned by the other nations that equally inhabit this planet was not conceited and supercilious? You know, many, many people in other countries view the USA as all of these things. Do you mean to tell them that their perceptions are all equally mistaken? That the United States hasn’t, by the actions of its leaders, shown itself to believe that it is above what the rest of the world – that is, the GLOBAL COMMUNITY – thinks of it? You say that we shouldn’t care what the rest of the world thinks of us, but this is only indicative of that sterotypical American close-mindedness that we – thanks to our adminstration – have now been branded with. The fact of the matter is, we may be one of if not the most powerful nations in the world, but we still answer to the UN and we are still obligated to participate in the international community. That means actually caring about how we are perceived in other parts of the world not irrationally opposed based on our stance with Israel. If you honestly see a problem with this, then you are nothing but the archetypal example of the boorish, ignorant American stereotype.
Rushfan, I find your level of hypocracy abhorrent. You come here railing how democrats do nothing but rehash standard partisan critcisms while being guilty of the same crime, choosing to hide it behind the rehashed partisan excuses of your own ineffectual party. You cast derision on us because you feel your party still stands for the idealistic notions of the past, while in practice it fails to live up to any of them. You cast out the GOP-sanctioned, pro-war propaganda and emphasize its importance while failing to even entertain the notion that you or your party might be wrong. You have a very close-minded world view and frankly, it’s a bit offensive to be accused of such when the accuser is markedly ignorant of certain introspective truths.
I don’t care what you may have to say about why the democratic party sucks. I’ll be the first to admit its flaws and shortcomings. But that’s what separates me and you. I can understand how my party is wrong. You seem unable to do that.
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Steady rushfan, steady.
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:06 pm
365. Kase, the electoral college *is* a joke, but not a funny one. It’s a terribly, terribly sad joke.
I’m angry that I only get to vote for someone who “pledges” to vote for someone, but isn’t accountable for that pledge. Once elected, that member of the electoral college can vote for whomever they please.
Every time someone rambles on about our Democracy, I want to shake them by the shoulders and shout at them “Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! You learned this in 5th grade!”
Then I realize it won’t make one iota of difference. Nothing changes. Everything we do remains the same, no matter what we call it. Everything that happens remains the same, no matter what we call it. The electoral college is a disaster, no matter if we remember to call it what it is or not.
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Slick ~ I like you, man. But you have no idea what you’re talking about. Granted, you are obviously educated. But I am not a Republican hack, my comment was not in support of Republicans, it was in response to Randall. I’m honestly shocked by your strong reaction. We disagree. Isn’t that what makes America great? That we can disagree? I support the war. You don’t. But you made some leaps in logic to condemn me so forcefully. I’m just some mom in Texas who doesn’t want some pussy in the White House who’s gonna back down in the face of terrorists, which is honestly what I feel we’ll get with Obama. My best friend is a yoga instructor vegan anarchist… we don’t all have to have the same views, but we can still be friends and respect each other’s views, right?
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:42 pm
rushfan:
“Slick ~ I like you, man. But you have no idea what you’re talking about.”
I should say the same about you.
“But I am not a Republican hack, my comment was not in support of Republicans.”
My apologies. Though if I were to draw up a list of characteristics of a republican hack, you’d have met several of them in this exchange. You can see how I could have made that mistake. Don’t call the kettle black, Ms. Pot. That’s all I’ll say.
“But you made some leaps in logic to condemn me so forcefully.”
Pray tell. It certainly seems to me that, by your comments and general attitude here, that you have been tacitly guilty of most of the things I mentioned, and explicitly guilty of the rest. The way you’ve argued against Randall is typical of conservative propaganda, and I don’t like feeling like I’m being mocked through my political affiliations by someone who sometimes doesn’t seem to see the nose on the front of her face.
“I’m just some mom in Texas who doesn’t want some pussy in the White House who’s gonna back down in the face of terrorists, which is honestly what I feel we’ll get with Obama.”
You think he is a “pussy” that is going to “back down in the face of terrorists.” What are your reasons for this? Of course you understand that anything other than his stated agendas or voting record will be irrational reasoning. I believe you’re smarter than that, anyway, so I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
September 4th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Well apparently they ARE ready or else he would not be in the position he’s in…although that could just amount to people just not wanting a female president haha maybe the next ‘your view’?
And for the record I don’t base my opinion on gender or race.
September 4th, 2008 at 3:53 am
Is the US ready for a black president, most likely not. Is it ready for another Bush, absolutely not.
September 4th, 2008 at 5:33 am
S.D.Schaffer:
I’ll retract nothing, pinhead. You made no proviso, in your original bullshit statement, about “bills passed in to law.” You asked for ONE piece of legislation that Obama had written or co-written in the senate. That is ALL you asked for.
You were flat-dead wrong, pure and simple, and nothing more than yet another mouth for right-wing propaganda bullshit.
September 4th, 2008 at 5:50 am
rushfan:
“The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all.”
Oh? Is that so, madam? And how would you suggest the Israelis ought to be allowed to go about this “defeat (of the Palestinians) once and for all?” Hmm? Kill every last one of them? If that’s what it took?
What does that statement of yours MEAN?
See, you talk here and in your statements regarding Iraq like the typical person who knows nothing of war and thinks it’s okay to blithely say this or that military action should be carried out, or is viable, or is acceptable.
I like you and bucslim—you’re good people. But your politics is the kind of know-nothing populism that always gets our society and our country overseas into deep shit. Sometimes it’s mitigated by other factors–Reagan managed to pull us out of miasma before the damage he was doing really set in. But George W. Bush and his lapdog congress showed us how bad it can get when this kind of ignorant worldview gets its own way for too long. If you like the way the last 8 years have gone–even halfway–then you’re so out of touch that I don’t know what more to say to you.
My SENSE is that you two are in the minority… at least you are for the people *I* talk to, and no, they’re not all academic intellectuals, not by a LONG shot. I live in blue-collarsville, and to a man and woman, every single one of them hate Bush and are angry as hell at the Republicans and think Sarah Palin is a freakin’ retard, along with being a retarded choice for VP.
I trust this is the prevalent view nationwide. We’ll see.
September 4th, 2008 at 6:38 am
On these two tickets, I’m paying very strong attention to the running mates. We have a very old (the oldest running for president) man who could easily die in office and a black man who could easily be assassinated (although if anyone would have been assassinated by now, it would have been Bush). So, what’s left is an inexperienced, extremely right-winged woman and an experienced, plageristic man. I think we should be looking long and hard at the running mates.
So long as the SS does their job, the more stable ticket seems to be the Democrats.
September 4th, 2008 at 6:56 am
Cedestra, (375),
A couple of points.
Excellent point above. Probably crucial.
Secondly, I’m so sorry I responded in any way at all to that momentary madness that went on under your name. As one who has also had aliases nicked, I should have realised or kept quiet. It didn’t seem to add up in any way to what I remembered as Cedestra postings. Yet I felt you might have been responding outrageously to some outrageous comments or situation I had missed, and wanted to make clear at least one reader was taking it simply as off the wall. I was also a bit distracted there and then. By the time the awful truth dawned I had acted indelibly, if indefinitely. At least, happily the ordure was removed, and my comments are mild and meaningless. But deep apologies all the same.
I find it disturbing that there can be no equivalent to a *spam filter* to prevent the identical form of name and ideally the same run of letters from hitting the screen. Our identities are very important here, both to those who know us and respond to us, and also as flags for our overall views, personalities and standards of behaviour.
September 4th, 2008 at 7:40 am
rushfan:
“We are in a global war on terrorism and Iraq is one front in that war.”
No, it isn’t, and it never was. It’s convenient to ignore the truth and the facts and evidence when they don’t agree with you, rush, but it isn’t *honest.* Saddam’s Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and there’s no evidence that he even exported terrorism of *any* kind directed at the US. And there was never any evidence of any kind that he was trying to produce a nuclear weapon. It’s long been established that all of these excuses were invented by the Bush administration–the problem is that Congress has never had the guts to call him on it and impeach the son of a bitch. But I take it you never heard of the Downing Street memo, or any of the other documents and testimonies which establish that the Bush administration *knew all along* that they were lying to the American public and to the rest of the world, distorting and fabricating whatever they felt they needed so they could carry out whatever nutty strategic “plan” they had in mind which demanded that they invade Iraq and topple Saddam. I applauded the fact that a bastard dictator was overthrown, but the simple fact is that we had no justification for it, and it was a monumental strategic error.
You can harp all you want on this, promoting the propaganda that we’re now “winning the war in Iraq” and that “the surge is working” as though these contentions somehow make the whole thing okay–utterly ignoring how A) it was WRONG in the first place B) a HUGE waste of lives, time, resources and our economy and C) it accomplished NOTHING of a practical value beyond ending the rule of a lousy tyrant. Nice, that last, but hardly worth what we put into it. Every SINGLE other aspect of it has been a complete and utter FAILURE.
“After 9/11 it was necessary to take any and all threats seriously.”
I love this kind of bullshit rhetoric. As if no one WOULD take threats seriously after 9/11. Sure.
“Actually, it was necessary before 9/11 but Clinton ignored all terrorist attacks from the embasy bombings to the USS Cole.”
I’m not here to defend the poor foreign policy maneuvers of the Clinton administration. I, in fact, agree that he fucked up. But I find it telling that you find it so easy to criticize *Clinton* for his errors in this regard–but you won’t raise a voice to criticize BUSH for *his* far greater errors. Clinton could at least say that no one could have conceived of a 9/11 plot before it actually happened (I certainly couldn’t imagine it–to this day it still seems like some crap they’d invent in a Hollywood movie)… but what excuse can Bush use? Where is Bin Laden? Why is the TALIBAN still operating almost *freely* in Afghanistan? And more besides.
“The international community (not just the US) had intelligence that said Saddam had or was close to developing dangerous weapons.”
Wrong, and a blatant falsehood. The fact is that no such intelligence ever existed–the best they had were unproved suppositions and faint indications here and there, most of them completely untrustworthy.
Again, you are spouting right-wing propaganda which hasn’t even a smidgeon of truth in it.
“The UN passes how many resolutions? He used chemical weapons on his own people.”
What does THAT have to do with 9/11 and the war on terror? Again, it was a meaningless and pointless DIVERSION from where our attentions SHOULD have been.
“We happen to be winning the war in Iraq.”
Again, irrelevant.
“The soldiers you feel sorry for, I feel proud of.”
AS IF I’M NOT PROUD OF THEM. I TOLD YOU, rushfan, don’t pull that flag-waving “you hate America and hate our soldiers while I’m a patriotic TRUE Amurrican” with ME, young lady. What the hell did YOUR family EVER do to serve this country? Do they have the same record as mine? I highly doubt it. Yet you feel free to impugn MY patriotism? Get off it. Moreover, those soldiers you’re so “proud” of–in fact, informal polling has indicated that a *majority* of them feel their time in Iraq has been *wasted* and that they have NOT been fighting the *real* enemy there.
REAL soldiers, rushfan, don’t just blindly cheerlead for whatever conflict they’re sent into. They KNOW when they’re being bullshitted, and know when their time and effort is being wasted. Why do you think so many former generals and admirals have come out with criticisms of this war, and criticisms of the Bush administration’s handling of it? Why do you think so many generals have left service? Why do you think so many of them protested Rumsfeld’s reckless decisions and attitudes in regards to how the war should be prosecuted?
“Did you watch all of those brave Iraqi citizens risk their lives to vote? Well, I did.”
Good for you—another irrelevant pull at the heartstrings and self-congratulation. Have you checked in how many of those noble Iraqi citizens have taken up arms against us? And how many of them have *died* needlessly in the in-fighting? And how many of them are now angry as hell at us?
“Well I for one don’t need the mainstream media to form my opinions for me and I sure as hell don’t need you to talk to me as if you know it all because you sure as hell don’t.”
What you sure as hell DO need, rushfan, is some education and to listen to SOMEONE other than Rush goddamn fucking Limbaugh. Ignoring the “mainstream media” doesn’t make you smart, rush. Not if you’re not filling the gap with something other than one sided propaganda.
“and another thing…Nobody is “for” war. Sometimes it is necessary to win the war to win the peace.”
Exactly the typical kind of talk one hears from armchair generals who don’t go themselves, but feel comfortable to rah rah rah for whatever action they feel “needs” to be taken.
“The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all.”
See my earlier point about this. That statement is reprehensible.
“They have the ability, they just use *amazing* restraint and don’t obliterate their enemy.”
But apparently you think they should do just that? Obliterate them?
“We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid.”
More nonsense self-congratulation. No, rushfan, we are now distrusted and hated by people all over the world because our foreign policy the last eight years has been bullying, self-serving, reckless, and one-sided. We’re no longer the leader we once were, we’re a bullying bull in a china shop that looks like it’s trying to lay the foundations of empire. Whether true or not, that’s how it appears to people the world over. Of course, it’s convenient for to deny that and pretend it ain’t so, sitting where you sit… but that doesn’t make you right.
“I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves”
The mark of a true leader, rush, is not just blundering in and doing what you think should be done, when everyone else advises you its wrong. That’s the mark of a bully and a self-righteous idiot, which Bush has been proven to be. There’s nothing wrong with listening to one’s trusted and true allies and friends and acting within some accord on their feelings. Yes, sometimes you gotta take a lead and be out on your own—but handled properly it never becomes what it HAS become. Bush’s problem is that he was incapable of handling this situation thusly–instead, he handled it like no one else in the world mattered. That kind of crap may play in the trailer parks but it isn’t the smart way to run a superpower.
September 4th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Randall, tl;dr.
September 4th, 2008 at 8:26 am
“Moreover, those soldiers you’re so “proud” of–in fact, informal polling has indicated that a *majority* of them feel their time in Iraq has been *wasted* and that they have NOT been fighting the *real* enemy there”
Reaaaaalllly? I am young (you know this) and graduated from college just last year. I have SEVERAL (as in more than I can count on one hand) friends who are in the military and have gone/are going to serve tours. These are well educated men, three of whom have master’s degrees at or before age 24 and are from both military and non- military families. Not one of them signed up for the help with college tuition, and not one of them is of the “Heh. Guns. Let’s get shooting” mentality.
And they ALL are pround to serve, and fight for their country. Not one of them has complained to me about his time being wasted. Are you in Iraq Randall? No, I don’t believe so. You can informal poll and much as you want, as can I, but you and I will NEVER have a soldier mindset- I don’t care if your family goes back more generations than Lt. Dan’s did, you have no right to come on here spouting “soldiers hate the war!” as a defense against it. My grandfather was shot down over Germany and spent 3 years as a POW during WWII, and even he keeps quiet about this situation because he simply thinks it’s not his war. If you want to honestly complain about a solider wasting his time, that, pick up a gun, get on the front line, and become one..see how well your pompous blowharding does there.
Furthermore, you can’t tell me that 8 years ago after 9/11 whichever party was in the White House coule have stood by and not done anything. Do you honestly think if we had a Democrap in office back then we wouldn’t be at war with someone today?
September 4th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Callie:
“And they ALL are pround to serve, and fight for their country.”
This is NOT the same thing as feeling that the war is correct and has been a good use of their time and effort. Again, I repeat–there has been informal polling of soldiers who have spent a great deal of time in Iraq, and amongst soldiers who have returned… and OF the soldiers talked to, a majority of them have expressed dissatisfaction with the way the war has been handled and with the very idea of it.
No, soldiers do NOT normally talk about this kind of thing. But they are NOT stupid and they do not just blindly support situations which they find untenable.
But don’t tell me I don’t have a “right” to simply report what soldiers themselves have been saying. YOU need to justify YOUR stance when, again, as I said earlier, there is EVERY evidence that the military from the TOP DOWN has not supported this war or the way it has been run *from the beginning.* Again, if you don’t agree with that, then you explain the criticism from former generals and admirals that has been *rife,* and why so many of them have spoken out.
“If you want to honestly complain about a solider wasting his time, that, pick up a gun, get on the front line, and become one..see how well your pompous blowharding does there.”
This is EXACTLY the opposite of traditional logic in regards to this kind of question. RATHER, Callie, it should be on YOU as a supporter of the war (it seems you are from what you’re saying) to be willing to pick up a gun and go there YOURSELF. I do NOT support this war, and only report the FACTS about it along with my opinions BASED on those facts. Why should it then logically follow that *I* should HAVE to “join up” in order to express my opinion? That’s about the most dunderheaded thing I’ve heard all day.
I can’t speak for your silent grandfather. My father and five of my uncles fought in combat in WWII, my father a bomber pilot, two of my uncles in the navy, and three of my uncles in the army. ALL in combat. They did their duty and were proud of it, but they also–each and every one of them–came out of it hating war and knowing what it is, and knowing that it has to be prosecuted responsibly and intelligently. THIS war in Iraq has been anything but. You can bet your ass if any of them were still alive they’d be opposed to it—though they would NOT have been opposed to the war in Afghanistan that SHOULD have been our focus the last eight years, but hasn’t been.
“Do you honestly think if we had a Democrap in office back then we wouldn’t be at war with someone today?”
Cute, but stupid. The point is NOT that we shouldn’t have been in ANY war the last eight years, but that we should have been in the RIGHT one. But the fact is that the RIGHT war (Afghantistan)has been neglected and even ignored by this administration so that it could INSTEAD waste time, lives, effort and resources on a chimera in Iraq.
September 4th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Oh so if we were in Afghanistan, you would suddenly become pro-war? You would join up on the side of Buc, Rush, and myself? Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?
And you’re damn right if I’m ever called upon I’d go serve. Did I sign up? No, because I’m quite little and would probably just get in the way on the front lines, but if there were ever a draft, and women were included, and I was drafted, hell yes I’d go. You tout your military background as proof of patriotism, yet seem to have a deep hatred of this country and most of the people in it except for your daughters, your neighbor Mike, and your hot co-ed’s.
Let’s say your boy gets elected. Let’s say he dies. ( I know it’s a long shot, but it’s entirely possible. Obama could drop just as easy as McCain) Biden is now President of the US. Psssst….Biden voted FOR THE WAR. Now what?
September 4th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Is America ready for that drastic a change? Yes it sure is after the bullshit of GWB and his croneys. But are they ready for a man like Obama? I don’t think that his many supporters may know the real truth of this guy. He’s just too far left wing for most of the American public but that said… Do we really want a repeat of the GWB years that the Republican candidate is sure to give us?
I don’t have any firm answers to any of this… but I know that I can’t vote for a Democrat who may have underlying motives to how his government will rule.
September 4th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Well I simply cannot agree with the stance you are taking on this Randall. I completely agree with callie on this. There is plenty of good news coming out of Iraq, and a lot of that is coming from soldiers who’ve fought there.
It’s just too simple to toss out the mindset that this is all George Bush’s fault, we shouldn’t be there, let’s get out tomorrow. Yes, we were all deceived. Yes, we might have been hasty. But as I’ve stated numerous times elsewhere, Congress, most democrats included, approved of this action, and they’ve been running from this fact ever since.
Despite all of Bush’s blunders and miscalculations, the violence in Iraq is decreasing, oil profits are going to the republic instead of a sadistic thug and his cronies, terrorist organizations have to find other places to train and plan, and religious sects and tribes are debating upcoming elections. This cannot be described as anything other than a success and a vast improvement over the regime that was there before. But you’ll never hear about this from any democrat because their main focus on Iraq is for our failure. Most will give you some sort of half hearted blather about how they support the troops, but do not support their mission. They will never see the hypocritical nature of their sentiments because a soldier’s duty is to kill the enemy and destroy their ability to make war, not to sit on their ass and bitch about their dissatisfaction with their commanders or the plan of action.
The rest of my feelings on Iraq can be summed up nicely in an article by Christopher Hitchens in Slate. And we all know what an empty headed deluded right-wing sympathizer Mr. Hichens is.
http://www.slate.com/id/2197007/
September 4th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Randall and rushfan,
I’ve skimmed a bit, and might have missed the point somewhere, but I should like to point out the quite commonly expressed viewpoint based on observation that the war in Iraq may actually have consolidated fundamentalism and given it greater focus, to the greater risk of our peaceful and oblivious citizens in their home towns (including my own family).
Soldiers fighting and winning wars. Proud of the cause? British tommies fought and suffered beyond comprehension (alongside comrades of other nations) during WW1. They won. They were disgusted by the futility and pointlessness of that barbarous industrial slaughter. The feeling ran so deep and long that an Oxford Union debate as late as 1933 voted heavily in favour of the motion ‘This House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country’. For them, patriotism had indeed, and literally, become the last refuge of scoudrels. Businessmen and profiteers. A familiar ring? Cowards? Six years later Oxford joined up as a man to fight a cause that everyone was willing to die for and was proud to have won. Against the vicious, obscene Nazi racist war machine. *This House* did fight alongside King and Country AGAINST tyranny.
I had an old uncle who joined up in 1915 at not quite 16 (he lied about his age). He survived WW1. He won the highest medal any non-officer can other then the VC. He actually fought to remain alive and defend those comrades he loved and cared for. He was wounded and partially lost control of his bladder. After the war, when returning late at night from work, he was arrested for pissing in the middle of a forest miles from habitation. The court ignored the plea of his war wound and found him guilty of an indecent act. A young woman who had been caught short at the same time two miles away was next up. The newspapers printed their names together as having committed an indecent act. That was for his wife and family and neighbours to read. I’m sure that story could be matched by many returned veterans of wars, particularly embarrassing, failed wars everyone wants to forget quickly. As a young man I was on active armed National Service in a terrorist situation on behalf of my country. A grateful (socialist) goivernment rewards me by freezing my pension at its original minimal base level because I do not live in England and to uprate it *would cost the taxpayer too much*. (Note, I represent a considerable net saving for the British welfare services.) Talk to me about heroes and patriotism and dying proudly for one’s country.
Down here (South America) at least, America has been losing the war for hearts and minds steadily over a good period now. Chile would not support the war in Iraq. Anti-Americanism (i.e. *official* America) is perhaps as strong as it has been since the days when brutal dictators were propped up to stave off communism.
September 4th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Bucslim: And while you’re “winning” the war in Iraq, the war that you were manipulated and out right deceived into joining, my Soldiers are dying in Afghanistan. Where you should have been in the first place. The UN has stated that the terrorists in Afghanistan are both better equipped and better organized than the resistance in Iraq. The Taliban, the ones that George W. Bush lied to you about, the ones that were not in Iraq until after the American invasion. Yup, great job winning the war. Too bad you didn’t use your military might to eradicate the real threat, not the one that involves big business and oil.
September 4th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Re my 384.
Hope all those *points* in my first sentence add point to the comment. I’d hate it to be pointless.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:20 am
callie:
“Oh so if we were in Afghanistan, you would suddenly become pro-war?”
Are you not listening, callie? I have said TIME and TIME again that the real war WAS in Afghanistan. Nobody should be “pro-war,” per se, but yes, I was ALWAYS in favor of prosecuting THAT war, against the Taliban and Al Qaeda–THE PEOPLE THAT ATTACKED US.
I mean, what is this bullshit? Where have I not SAID this?
“You would join up on the side of Buc, Rush, and myself?”
Hey doofus! I’ve got news for you. I’ve no doubt we’re also on the same side when it comes to many things. Why the hell would this be different? What are you trying to say, and pin me with?
“Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?”
Uh, clearly, moron, you think this is the case. Equally clearly, you’re dead wrong. About a lot of things, as it happens.
“And you’re damn right if I’m ever called upon I’d go serve.”
Convenient to say, not easy to do.
“Did I sign up? No, because I’m quite little and would probably just get in the way on the front lines,”
Uh huh.
Look, the point is this shouldn’t be about impugning people for going or not going. That’s not a valid basis for argument. It is IRRELEVANT. About the only thing you can say reasonably is that if someone is super-gung-ho for war, then they themselves should be prepared to go. That’s an old saw, we’ve heard it a million times. There’s truth in it.
But beyond that, drop this shit. It isn’t what this argument is about.
“You tout your military background as proof of patriotism,”
NO. WRONG. I “tout” my FAMILY’S military background simply in DEFENSE of people who IMPUGN my patriotism, etc. Big difference. And the reason this is done is because 99.9% of the time, the people shooting their mouth off at me about this are people who NEVER served in combat themselves and have had NO immediate relatives who served in combat. It happens every time. It’s a common pattern. People with no knowledge of war, either personal or inherited, are EVER the first to be the cheerleaders for it, and the first to impugn the patriotism of OTHERS when they oppose war or criticize it.
“yet seem to have a deep hatred of this country”
Oh I do? And from what statements of mine did you draw this brilliant conclusion? Where’s your proof of this, your evidence?
AGAIN… common and shallow tactic of the brain-dead self-righteous right wing… accusing others who disagree with their fucked up worldview of “hating” their own country.
So cliched it ought to embarrass you to use it, Callie.
“and most of the people in it”
Well there you’re getting closer to the truth. You’re right, I don’t like a LOT of my “fellow Americans.”
“except for your daughters, your neighbor Mike, and your hot co-ed’s.”
I got no problem with this. Though my base of friends and people I admire IS considerably broader than just my neighbor Mike.
“Let’s say your boy gets elected. Let’s say he dies. ( I know it’s a long shot, but it’s entirely possible. Obama could drop just as easy as McCain) Biden is now President of the US. Psssst….Biden voted FOR THE WAR. Now what?”
Piss poor debating tactic, callie. This isn’t some litmus test about who opposed the war when. I wouldn’t care if OBAMA had supported the war originally. We have only two choices in an election, and no matter what, Obama is the superior choice BY FAR over McCain, who hasn’t YET learned that the war was wrong and a huge mistake.
AND, of course, there’s much more to it than the war. McCain stands for a dozen other things, at least, that amount to four more years of the same godawful shit we’ve suffered under the last EIGHT years with Bush.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Including probably, I fear, basic indifference to global climate issues except for mealy-mouthed lip-service, unless corporate profits will benefit succulently.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:43 am
bucslim:
“Well I simply cannot agree with the stance you are taking on this Randall. I completely agree with callie on this.”
I’m not surprised. I’m sorry man, but with you and I being about the same age, and discussing matters with you again and again, I’ve long since drawn the conclusion that you stopped *thinking* about your politics long ago. You clicked yourself into a political slot and you’re staying there, with no hope of being dislodged, and logic, facts, evidence, and changes in the world be damned. That’s where you’ll stay.
That’s wrong. Dead wrong. It’s called polarization and close-mindedness. It’s what we, when we were young, used to rail at the hippies and old school ultra-lefties about. That they were polarized and glued to out-of-date and illogical stances that ignored that the world had changed and that some of their experiments weren’t working. *They* ignored the evidence before their very eyes. *They* thought that Marxism was the wave of the future and that our values were to be laughed at. We were their grandkids, children, and younger brothers and sisters and we opposed them because we knew they’d been proven wrong and that the world had progressed beyond them.
But here you’re doing the same thing THEY did. You’re clinging to a worldview that’s rigid and you won’t change it—damned if I know why, because you seem smart enough. But I can *guess* why.
“There is plenty of good news coming out of Iraq,”
Where is the RELEVANCY of this? I don’t care if the war had gone GREAT from the very beginning and the Iraqis had freakin’ PARADES for us every day! It’s IRRELEVANT. The war was WRONG and a mistake and a DIVERSION from where our focus SHOULD have been.
WINNING a war doesn’t make it “right,” bucslim. It just ends it. And I remind you, the “plenty of good news” you’re touting isn’t what you’re playing it up to me. You’re making it sound like all is now hunky dory over there. In fact it’s not, and all there’s been is a reduction in the HUGE amounts of violence.
“It’s just too simple to toss out the mindset that this is all George Bush’s fault,”
Why? He is the president. IN PARTICULAR in regards to matters of foreign policy, the responsibility ends with him. That’s tradition and simple fact. It was, in the end, HIS decision to support the neo-con idiocy about Iraq, and to go to war there when the war in Afghanistan hadn’t even been won yet.
“Congress, most democrats included, approved of this action, and they’ve been running from this fact ever since.”
What’s your POINT about this? No shit, Congress voted for it. And? So? That makes it right NOW? Did that EVER make it right? Did it ever make it the SMART thing to do?
NO, to all of these questions. Your point is irrelevant. I don’t even know what it is, to be frank.
“Despite all of Bush’s blunders and miscalculations, the violence in Iraq is decreasing,”
and again, this is IRRELEVANT.
“oil profits are going to the republic instead of a sadistic thug and his cronies, terrorist organizations have to find other places to train and plan,”
Wrong on both counts. A) it STILL looks, to the rest of the world, like we went to war for self-aggrandizement and for control of oil. True or not, looks *matter* in the world. And this is still how it looks–like imperial America acting in its own selfish interests. And with no real *point* to the war, that perception, however incorrect it MAY be, remains. B) I can’t believe you can say this about the terrorists… Iraq became and still is a MAGNET for them. AND the very people who attacked us are not only still there in the region but are still operating and to some extent still in power in Afghanistan.
Every time you say stuff like this, it’s like you’re living in a dream world… of Sean Hannity’s and Rush Limbaugh’s invention.
“This cannot be described as anything other than a success and a vast improvement over the regime that was there before.”
And WHAT did that accomplish for US? Was it WORTH the price we paid?
And again, you’re being ridiculously rosy. Hatreds and in-fighting continue in Iraq. Unabated. Slowed, yes. But for a LONG overdue modest reduction in violence… you’re proclaiming some kind of victory? And you refuse to acknowledge how ABSURD that is?
“But you’ll never hear about this from any democrat because their main focus on Iraq is for our failure.”
Because it has BEEN a failure. A pointless, wasteful, unnecessary failure. All those resources and men should have been devoted to fighting the REAL enemy in Afghanistan. NOT in a country that had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Let me get this straight. You are a grown man who is old enough to be my father telling me I’m supposed to be “embarassed” about my “cliched” arguments while in the same post you resort to calling me a moron and a doofus? Really?
While we’re on the subject of poor debating:
“Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?”
Uh, clearly, moron, you think this is the case. Equally clearly, you’re dead wrong.
First of all, the first part of that statement doesn’t need to be written at all. Yes, clearly I DO think that is the case, otherwise I never would have typed it. I have a dog, I don’t need a parrot. Secondly, how is it clear that I’m wrong? Unless you’re holed up in a small private conservative university (which I highly doubt) there’s a GOOD chance your school, like a large percentage of college campuses across the US, has a liberal stance on many things. Third, “dead wrong.” Really? My thinking your college is probably liberal is a life or death thing? I’m still breathing, Randall. You have a bit more flair for the dramatic than me, but it doesn’t mean you’re any better a debator.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
It was, in the end, HIS decision to support the neo-con idiocy about Iraq, and to go to war there when the war in Afghanistan hadn’t even been won yet.
Actually, it was congress who voted for it in the end. They passed it. Dems included. Back to seventh grade civics with you.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Also (sorry, I tried to stop that last one from posting to add this in) we DO have troops in Afghanistan. We aren’t ignoring it by any means.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I just need to get this in here.
When 9/11 happened, I was in my office at the university. A friend in Texas called me (or was it chatted me? I can’t recall now) and, knowing I was from New York, told me to check the news–something was going on in NYC. “A plane crashed into the World Trade Center.” I figured, weird, but okay… and so I told a couple colleagues and we went down the hall and flicked on a TV in an empty classroom… and for the next few hours we all sat and watched it happen.
We didn’t know then who did it, but of course it was obvious that it was organized terrorism. And in the ensuing days we found out who was responsible (except for the conspiracy nuts–they think Bush and the Illuminati were responsible).
I had personal thoughts going on at that time which I won’t share, because this isn’t about me. But I will say that I was deeply angry. I was also deeply troubled. I had little confidence that the Bush administration would handle the situation well. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
At any rate, I wanted the Taliban CRUSHED. I wanted Bin Laden hunted down like the miserable piece of garbage he is, along with all of his lieutants. I wanted and stil