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In November this year, the people of the United States will go to the polls to elect a new president. For the first time in history, one of the contenders is black. Obama has now won the support of the Democratic party and the lead up to the elections is looking to be fascinating. The whole world is watching to see what the Americans will do. The fact that the US might elect a black president this year leads us to our your view question – is the US ready for it? Have the racial troubles of the 60s now receded far enough in to the past for people to accept the idea? Please remember to attack points of view and not the people speaking. Ad hominem attacks are a signal of defeat in a debate.
Is the US Ready for a Black President?
My answer: Yes. I believe the majority of Americans are ready for a black president. I think the American love of politics and their desire to see integrity in the office means that they will vote for the best man for the job – regardless of race or gender – and I think that this year the election will prove that.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Yes. And i hope he wins!
August 28th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I hope so… or things have not progresses as far as they should have by now.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
What’s wrong with black???..
Competency, integrity, and your credibility is not measured by the color of your skin..
August 28th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Racist!.
Should I say,we’re Lucky coz were white and they’re not coz their black??
Where is equality?
August 28th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I didn’t think I would need to say it – but I will delete any racist comments.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
appie: who is racist? My response to the question suggested that Americans will vote based on integrity not skin color.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
yeah right jfrater..
I was just bothered “somebody’s” comment..
well, I think, it’s not a good idea blogging dirty comments here right?
this is for smart people not for uneducated ones..
August 28th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
appie: indeed – which is why I deleted his comment.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I definitely think that the majority of Americans, especially younger ones don’t even consider the color of his skin; we are ready for a black president. However, and I hate to say this, but I think he would have a higher than average chance at being assassinated. There are certain groups in this country that would definitely attempt it. It would take a long long time for that wound to heal. I try not to think about it…
August 28th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
paradoxo: let’s hope not – I think he has great potential.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
appie: okay – it is fine – I saw the comment and deleted it. Let’s move on now
August 28th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Sorry..
My fault..
I can’t recall his name..
I should have placed his name..
I’m not against black people..
I have lots of Black American friends…
I love Martin Luther King JR.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Speaking as a lifelong democrat i dont think Obama is qualified to be president. George Bush has just about ruined the chances for McCain to be elected president because he,s the one of the worst presidents in history and Americans are ready for a change. Im gonna do what the late George Carlin say,s im not gonna vote for anyone that way you cant blame me when they f@#k up i didn,t vote for him.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
I really hope so. But I do fear he will not make it the whole term, he will almost assuredly have several assassination attempts. In all probability before the election happens, but I do hope, I hope very much.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
To me, race has nothing to do with competence, but in all honesty, there are a lot of idiots out there. There are too many white supremacist nut-jobs in this world and if Obama is elected, I worry about what might happen. I think that the majority of Americans may be ready, but all it takes is one idiot.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Like comment 10, I believe the majority of younger Americans are ready for a black President. Sadly tho, there is a very powerful group that wont allow this to happen: Older male Republicans. Just watching some of the cable news shows alone is disgusting; from Neil Cavuto of Fox to Lou Dobbs of CNN, these “news men” have been disparaging Obamas every move. I am sure there will be either some very nasty personal attacks on Obama or some funny business in the voting. Hopefully, there will be enough support to overcome that.
Me: White male in his 30’s who will be voting Obama
August 28th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Yes, the US is ready for a black president. The only problem is that liberals aren’t ready for a conservative black president just as conservatives aren’t ready for a liberal black president. Party lines are much more divisive than race. Thomas Sowell would make a much better president than Obama. Obama’s not even facing issues with being (half) black or having a muslim-sounding name, he’s facing adversaries who question his judgement and ability to run the most powerful nation on the planet. It’s got nothing to do with race and he knows it. You might as well ask if America is ready for a female president or a one-armed president or a president in a wheelchair. We’re stuck in a rut of older white male presidents because A. it’s expensive to run for president so rich people tend to do it B. that’s what our politicians tend to look like. The political arena is open to one and all. It’s just like the sciences. Women aren’t highly represented because there aren’t a lot of women who go into the field. It’s only a matter of time before someone who looks different becomes our president, and naturally that person will be applauded and go down in history as the first “whatever” be it black guy or chick or jewish person. But I bet you whoever it is will be just another politician-they’ll just look different doing the job.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I think that “qualified” is a very subjective term. A lot of “qualified” and experienced candidates have made huge mistakes in foreign policy, the economy, their choice of staff, etc. Lincoln had very little experience but made smart decisions (the sorts of smart decisions one would have to make in order to go from being a state senator to presidential candidate in 6 years) and inspired people for generations to come with his speeches.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
And as far the assasination angle, any idea how many people want Bush dead?? I don’t think Obama would have any higher than average odds.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
JFrater ~ Can I ask why you think Obama would make such a great president? What have you been reading/hearing/watching?
August 28th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
i would love to say that America is ready, but I dont think they are.
Honestly, some red-neck would assasin him before he reaches the whitehouse… i would love to be proved wrong.
Alot of America is ready, but not ALL of America…
August 28th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
rushfan: I like him based upon the speeches I have heard him give. I don’t agree with all his politics, but I do like what he says generally.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
jfrater ~ will you be watching his highly-anticipated acceptance speech tonight?
August 28th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I believe that there are parts of this country that are not ready for there to be a black president and there are parts that are. Its interesting that I hear many older educated black people say that they don’t think that we are ready to have a black president yet. One woman I met during a hospital stay not too long ago who was a teacher said ” its only been forty years since they killed Dr King and I don’t believe things have changed enough that someone won’t kill Mr Obama too” and that echoes the sentiment of the others in the demographic I have spoken to.
I think more importantly that Obama is not ready to be president so it isn’t really a relevant discussion. For the record I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican and I would vote for the candidate that best represents my beliefs which is neither of the major party candidates this election.
In the two party system if neither candidate fits your views if you vote you’ve lost, so the only way to protest is to not vote which is what I will do this year just as I did in 2004,
August 28th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
YES, AMERICA IS READY–Just not O bama–Ineptness shouldn’t be the strong point for electing a president.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
rushfan: I will – though I didn’t know about it until mentioned it
August 28th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
In my opinion, it’s simply about the US being ready for a DIFFERENT kind of president. A non-white, non-senile, non-”let’s go to war forever”, non-awfully-Republican president.
And the answer is hopefully yes, FOR THE SAKE OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I will say America is ready, but I also want to mention that a lot of the Barack support is mainly hype..
It’s becoming a fad to like him and many people don’t even know what his platform is.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Yes we are. I don’t this THIS particular gentleman is the best candidate running this year. But I’m glad to see that we as a nation have come far enough to give him consideration. The same thinking goes for a woman president. Remember the men who’ve held this job were from a pretty narrow group,….even amongst white men. We’ve had only one Catholic president, only one bachelor, only one who didn’t graduate college, only one divorced and none whose surname originated from outside of Northwestern Europe.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
definitely, just not this huckster
August 28th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
“Portrayal Of Obama As Elitist Hailed As Step Forward For African Americans”
Another great report from the Onion.
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/portrayal_of_obama_as_elitist
August 28th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
“I think the American love of politics and their desire to see integrity in the office means that they will vote for the best man for the job.”
Seriously? You believe the American people (of whom I am one) vote for the “best man for the job”? I think most people vote for the person who speaks to the single issue they like and forget the rest. You’ll also have those who will vote for him just because he’s black which has been seen in areas where he received 99% of the black vote. Just sayin.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
I think it’s ridiculous that the question even has to be asked. Race shouldn’t have any relevance. Experience should. Obama has no experience or unique qualifications; I really don’t see what the big deal is about him.
Politicians are ALL douchebags. Each and every one of them. Douchebaggery sees no color.
On race, in case it DOES matter, here’s a snippet from an article by Dr. Jack Wheeler:
>He is half-white, which he
> rejects. The rest of him is mostly Arab, which he hides but
> is disclosed by his non-African Arabic surname and his
> Arabic first and middle names as a way to triply proclaim
> his Arabic parentage to people in Kenya . Only a small part
> of him is African Black from his Luo grandmother, which he
> pretends he is exclusively.
>
> What he isn’t, not a genetic drop of, is
> ‘African-American,’ the descendant of enslaved
> Africans brought to America chained in slave ships. He
> hasn’t a single ancestor who was a slave. Instead, his
> Arab ancestors were slave owners. Slave-trading was the main
> Arab business in East Africa for centuries until the British
> ended it.
>
> Let that sink in: Obama is not the descendant of slaves, he
> is the descendant of slave owners.
August 28th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I just hope that if he loses everyone won’t cry “racist”, especially if he loses for legitimate reasons (as a Canadian though I’m too busy following our own politics to really know anything about his platform, I just hate when someone cries “racist!” or “sexist!” at everything)
August 28th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I’m Irish so the election doesn’t have any direct impact on me, but if I had the opportunity to vote in the US elections – Obama! Obama! Obama!
I think the majority of the US is probably ready for a black president. He’s a personable, intelligent, thoughtful man – am I just naive in thinking that his skin colour is trivial in comparison to those admirable traits?
One thing that worries me though is those Republican voters in the Bible belt. McCain still has a strong army of support behind him. Although I’ve never been to the US, I am aware that racism among the Bible belt is still a problem (correct me if I’m wrong).
As the US is the only superpower left in the world, the election impacts the rest of the world greatly. If Obama is elected, it will show great progression in the US society from the days of Rosa Parks. The rest of the world will notice and appreciate it.
Plus, he’s not a gun-toting war nut
August 28th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I would prefer we had a “Blacker” president. But ready or not here he comes. I will vote for him and hope he wins and that the legacy of the Bush’s is one of total shame, incompetence and stupidity
August 28th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Morgan Freeman has built the road
August 28th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
P.S. FYI – part of his caucasian side is from Moneygal, County Offaly in Ireland.
Just a random piece of info for ya!
August 28th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Jill W.
I understand what you’re saying, but you can’t expect people to really care that he is descended from slave owners. So are most people!
Slavery has been around forever and most every country has slavery in it’s past, so it’s highly unlikely that ANYBODY isn’t descended from slave owners.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Oh, and my opinion is YES.
Race doesn’t matter.
What I’m really hoping for is a president who is not Christian in my lifetime.
They don’t have to be Agnostic, Atheists or even Jews (like me). I just want to see that America can stop automatically distrusting anybody who isn’t Christian.
Don’t deny it, because Obama’s religion has been a major issue that people discuss.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
wow. never thought i’d say this… but i actually don’t have much to say.
i am not ready for a black president…or a white president… or a yellow, red, purple, orange or chartreuse president!
i am ready for a president who can begin to repair much of financial damage our country has sustained over the past 8 years… i make (practically) the same amount of money that i did back in 2005, but i am paying 2$ more a gallon in gas. milk costs over 3$ a gallon, and let’s just not go there.
my properties went into foreclosure, because i made bad judgment calls and thought i could turn them around quickly, but the bottom began to drop out of the real estate market by then. i have had 2 friends return from Iraq, one with a TBI and is now disabled, and he fights every month for a measly $1,250 to live off of!
we are still involved in a war that not only do many Americans oppose, but a great many don;’t even know why we are involved!
i am ready for a president, and administrations, who doesn’t think the answer to our energy crisis is to open off-shore drilling that has been banned by congress every year since the 1980’s…
i am ready for a president that understands that instead of being the global bully, we need to be the global educator, and lead by example…
and i’m ready for a president that stops pandering to big corporations and encourages the small business owners, who are just getting annihilated by such corporations as WalMart, VCA of America, and others.
since Billy Graham socially declared that to “Be a Christian & American” was synonymous with “voting Republican”, there are an untold multitude of backwater, un-educated, un-informed individuals in this country, who only take their awareness of politics or public events from the snippets on the nightly news, who would never desire to see anyone other than a white, American, Protestant male in the White House, that will vote for anyone Republican, so long as it is a white male who talks openly about his religion.
those people, i fear, outnumber those of us whom are more liberal, see beyond the immediate gains, and understand that it will take a helluva lot longer than 8 years to turn this country around. If Obama becomes president, i believe he will lay down a great foundation for other future presidents to build upon and repair all the economic damage, and national disgust many Americans (such as myself!) feel about the previous 8 years…
i have nothing more to say. really.
ringtailroxy
August 28th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
We’ll see…?
August 28th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
I would hope to think that in modern times now candidates should be based on policy rather then of superficial natures such as skin colour or networks… on the other hand there is no need for positive discrimination if he is unsuitable.
however in this case, i believe people are most definitely ready for a black president.. i also hope that this inspires people of different cultures and races to step up and try to help change the world knowing that no judgement will be made purely on race.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
I think most of America is, but most is probably still not enough.In the current situation, I would definately vote for Obama, although out of all the candidates he 3rd or 4th on my book.A better question would be if America was ready for a non-centrist president, like Paul, or Kucinics (probably spelled wrong).
August 28th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Hell yeah,America is ready for a black president!!! It’s time for change,man! On a serious note, the way Bush has been running the country these past eight years has put quite a damper on McCain’s run,him being a republican, but only time will tell. I was also rooting for Hillary for vice president,but oh well, Biden’s good to.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
I just found very hilarious image that kind of relates to this topic. Check it out it is very funny.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Why the hell should america care what race the president is, I just want someone to turn this country around Bush fucked it up.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Coming from the South, I’d like to say we are past “racial” issues, but I don’t think America is ready for a black president any more than America is ready for a woman president…we are too set in our ways. Although “change” sounds good to us in these time of economic hardship, I think it will boil down to race rather than issues.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
I believe most intelligent Americans are ready for a black president. I don’t care if your black, gay, or atheist, as long as you don’t push your social policies on me, and you make America a better place.
I don’t like Obama or McCain though.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Why is everyone so head over heels for Obama? because he promises hope and change? or because he’s black? This is complete bullshit. People always give me the typical reason why they’re voting for Obama and it’s either because “that’s what everyone else is doing” or because he has “hope and change”. It’s complete non-sense, as if no one is educated enough to draw their own conclusions about candidates than walking with the whole crowd off a cliff. I’m sick of hearing about this “hope and change”…it reminds me of the movie idiocracy where they watered the plants with brawndo(a sports drink) because it had electrolytes and that’s what plants crave, which of course is totally wrong…Why are you watering the plants with brawndo? “because it has electrolytes”…do you even know what electrolytes are? “yea, it’s what plants crave”…..i think i rest my case..
August 28th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Is the US Ready to stop asking ridiculously racist questions that distract the voter from truly important issues?
August 28th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Vote for Barr or Nader
August 28th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
i dont know. two party elections dont cut it for me. ultimately the path will go for who ever’s got the money and the gall to make it through to this point and those with enough political “got yo back” behind them, be it a blue gorilla with a swagger and wearing a 10gallon hat , riding a blindfolded ostrich , throwing out lollipops and ipods or someone with the voice, that is able to get across that “HOPE” tagline without it seeming like it was really created by Shepard Fairey, who’s made his mullah and street cred with his “OBEY” propaganda stlye poster grafitti..
Tell em what they wanna hear now.
it’s the time for high drama now. showtime!
the trail was like a recieving antenea.
” might need to adjust that one a tad to the right- or is it the left?”
“add some tin foil to that one there”
kiss the babies and give a golly handshake to the elders. eat a burger, play some pool, drink a beer with the regular shmo.
Stevie Wonder singin ole time faves with barack additions, while a bunch of little american flags wave around
god bless our country
the way the news plays it here is leaning on the pop side of obama.
the cool one
good luck Micky C!
The white guy on tee vee, talkin to the black woman on tee vee, “Its a different kinda obama and accent you’ll see and hear when he’s givin a speech in a southern black church.”
Al Gore talkin now to Obama fans. He gave his “go obama” bit–cheers expected places–, now he gives his “climate crisis” talk, and the good feeling of the crowd is trying to sober up.
but where’s the racism- hidden, erased or pushed back, as it can overshadow. The LA riots were just 15 years ago.thats not that long ago. and that was a pressure pot purculating for a while..for sure.
racism still exists in different ways worldwide, but the majority of voters here are not overt racists and the true hate mongers are like speckles of gore we wish not to look at straight in the face.
hypothetical “joke” here: what if Obama grows an afro in the white house…well, what would happen then?
Where’s the tough as nails jornalist that goes into the dark jungle of the mind of america and record the howl?
August 28th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Jerky – Conservatives don’t want what’s best for freedom and democracy.
Diogenes’ dummy, agreed 100%. I hate the two party system, it’s more about money than anything else.
August 28th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
ringtailroxy for president!
August 28th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
51. Shlufi:
I think is not an american who is asking, but you’re right.
People shall not vote Obama because a black president will make the country seem more advanced.
Unfortunetly, for many people in some places of the States seems that skin color is still an important issue.
August 28th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Diogenes’ dummy ~
thank you for the nomination, but i must decline. you see, i am certainly NOT qualified to run for presidency.
obviously the entire country has gone totally downhill since the Reagan era… a time of big spending and the Cold War. Then it was Saddam Hussein and the Gulf War. then it was Bin laden and the Iraq War… do i detect a trend?
now, I am well aware of Clinton’s part in the bombing of South Africa…. but i don’t believe it caused so vile an economic crisis as this war does today.
and whatever happened to the communal love of all americans? according to my grandfather, during WWII,things like War Bonds & Victory Gardens where the norm, and the american public eagerly made sacrifices so the soldiers had fresh food, supplies, and raw materials…nowadays, you can’t pry a teenage girl’s hands from her text phone, the general american attitude is “it’s not my problem” or “i don’t want to get involved” and now the “Green” movement is trendy, and i fear it is a fad, such as Rubik’s Cubes, Tomaguchi, Clear Sodas, and mainstream Alternative Rock!!!
no more. seems others LVers think i ramble…
rtr
p.s. concerning McCain: wasn’t he a prison of war, surviving atrocities, but so brain-washed by the military that he still thinks war is necessary for peace? that’s like wiping my ass before i take a shit…or saying you have to lie to be honest…
August 28th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
theres still lostsa food drives and the like, along with the whole “cellphone for soldiers”thing,but sure-trends CAN be evasive with the horrors at large, also CAN be a necessary release or coat of comfort, immeadiate reaction to the HYPE, like a big rock tossed in a pond…see i ramble too.
anyway- off the”Your View” at hand,in general -
community is truley at stake. agreed.
That Frost poem:
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall, /That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it, / And spills the upper boulders in the sun, /And makes gaps even two can pass abreast. / The work of hunters is another thing: /I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone, / But they would have the rabbit out of hiding, / To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean, /No one has seen them made or heard them made, / But at spring mending-time we find them there. /I let my neighbor know beyond the hill; /And on a day we meet to walk the line /And set the wall between us once again. /We keep the wall between us as we go. /To each the boulders that have fallen to each. /And some are loaves and some so nearly balls /We have to use a spell to make them balance:
‘Stay where you are until our backs are turned!’
We wear our fingers rough with handling them. /Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard. /My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors’.
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder / If I could put a notion in his head:
‘Why do they make good neighbors? Isn’t it / Where there are cows? /But here there are no cows. /Before I built a wall I’d ask to know /What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence. /Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That wants it down.’ I could say ‘Elves’ to him, /But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather
He said it for himself. I see him there /Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed. /He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees. /He will not go behind his father’s saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well /He says again,
“Good fences make good neighbors.”
August 28th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
We’re not ready for any one who isin’t going to actually do what they say. Too bad Obama can’t actually tell us what he will ‘change’. Whoever will be voted in, it won’t matter, my life will pretty much stay the same. So, I don’t care if we had a black jewish midget as a president, because I’ll still be doing the same things in the same exact way.
August 28th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
already had lots of black presidents:
24
Fifth Element
Idiocracy
etc.
August 28th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
this is going to be a major issue, just not for the reason that most of us think. in the south carolina primary, obama received 78% of the black vote. this is silly. i fear he will get elected simply BECAUSE he is black.
and then as mentioned above, i fear that if he loses, it will lead to greater race relation problems because of the perceived presence of racism that kept him from getting elected.
as far as the two candidates go, obviously there are serious flaws with both of the major party options. however, i don’t worry about homeland security with mccain in the oval office. i worry that someone will try to test obama the way they did bush. despite his many shortcomings, we have not been attacked since 9/11 under his watch.
August 28th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Yes. I think that we are way past this issue, or at least we should be. Black, white, yellow or red… doesn’t matter, as long as it gets better than it is now. If he actually does what he promises, it might actually propel the country to become more open-minded. Wouldn’t that be great? Will there ever be a day that America will just see people, and not color?
August 28th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
I am so glad i saw this title. I just watched his speech on tv. I think the US is ready for anyone who is willing to make the country a better place for the most of the people. I am pretty sure that weve come far enough as a whole to not really have to just see a persons skin color and not hear what they have to say. I hope so, at least. Besides, his ideas seem very good.
August 28th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Some people are saying that Obama might be the anti-christ…
Not me!! I just heard it around the office..
August 28th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
its simple. NO! definitely not ready, i’m not saying i’m not ready, i like barack.. a lot……. i just reaaally think he’ll get shot, the blacks will go nuts and riot like rodney king x100
August 28th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Is he a white man with a black father, or a black man with a white mother? Im confused.
Not really. Playing Devil’s advocate.
August 28th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
I agree that people will try to assasinate (KILL) him. People get crazy mad/ angry. Do I think this will continue? Yes.
Until the “job” is done. He will forever be in danger
August 28th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Yes, Americans are ready for a Black president, and I’m voting for him because of his economic policies (specifically including his cuts to middle class income tax and the rollback of tax breaks to large corporations that have benefitted from outsourcing) and his foreign policies (including the complete banning of torture and “harsh interrogation, a time table for getting out of Iraq, returning to the international stage as a sane player that knows how to negotiate rather than bluster and intimidate), and his social positions (including respecting the rights of all Americans to equal pay for equal work, immigration laws that cope with both security and societal needs, and respect for the role of family in building community).
Yeah, the guy from Hawaii with the funny name is a pretty decent candidate.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
I have to say…. if they are not, then they should have voted against him. If anybody complains after he is elected, it is point-and-laugh time.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Is America ready for a black president? Yes and no. Some are and some aren’t. The people who aren’t ready won’t vote for him, and come November we’ll see whether or not that’s the majority.
I live in the so called birthplace of the Republican Party, or at least one of 40. I’ve met more than a few people who are registering to vote so “this guy” isn’t in office… regardless of whether or not they can cite any of his policies. It’s certainly disheartening. I see and hear subtle and casual racism everyday… I’m sure many people are going to also vote for him to see some social attitude change.
It’s tough. No matter what way the election pans out, for most people he’ll either be president because he’s black or lose because he’s black. What a terrible way to write off such a historical precedent.
It’s amazing that race is still an issue, and alarming that it’s a deciding factor for some Americans.
Personally and obviously, race doesn’t matter. Hopefully change is attractive enough of a message to transcend that.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
someone equivocated that, in america, voting for a black man would be like voting for a woman or someone in a wheelchair.
I’m just pointing out that one of our greatest presidents had a wheelchair.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
I’d have no problem with a black president but I honestly just think McCain will be a better president than Obama. Im voting for McCain but I would not be too disappointed if Obama won. I just hope the Secret Service stays on top of its game because, sadly, there still are some hardcore racists around.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
@ Amanda
Just because someone doesn’t vote for Obama doesn’t mean they would not accept a black man as a president. If Obama doesn’t win this election it will not be because he is black, it will simply be because people think McCain is more qualified. Sure, Obama might have a few votes go the other way because of his skin color, but McCain will lose just as many because he’s viewed as an “Old man.”
August 28th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Vera, (66),
“Is he a white man with a black father, or a black man with a white mother? Im confused.
Not really. Playing Devil’s advocate.”
A good point.
Being an outsider, this definition of “black” for him has puzzled me. He has half African blood. If he had a quarter, would he still be “black”? An eighth? A sixteenth? At what point of “dilution” does a person cease to be black? Or does it depend on the colour his genes have left his skin, regardless of any other factor? In that case is there a colour chart to indicate? (Might a person even become black for a short while in summer after a good long exposure on the beach?) Is there not a term coloured? Or is there some problem with that? Clearly many or most of the terms for people of mixed race may tend to be offensive except in places such as Brazil or the Caribbean, where the mixtures are so total and merge so completely from one extreme to the other that segregation for the point of racism or insult comes close to pointless. Or, rather sinisterly, does it depend who is doing the defining? Or has Obama proudly announced himself as black. I’m simply curious to know.
Or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick altogether and there is some other factor involved?
August 28th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
you shouldn’t be viewing someone by the color of their skin in the first place….
August 28th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
I seriously believe that if Obama was white, he would not even be the democratic candidate. Him being black is basically a GIANT symbol for change…without it he is quite boring.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
True. If we were all blind our world would be different, but not necessarily better. Unfortunately speeches can and do rouse rabble and promises are broken.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
77 refers to 75.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Are we really supposed to give a rat’s hoo-haa about what color the guy is? Why should that matter? Do people really need to validate their enlightenment by voting for a dude who’s melanin content is higher than their own? That’s it, the only reason?
I’ve been a Republican since I entered the age to vote and I think there is a lot to admire about Obama, but I really don’t buy into all of this bullshit about the guy. It’s as if the Democrats venerate the Jesus rays the guy gives off. The dude can talk all touchy feely he wants, a specialty of liberals everywhere. But if and when he gets elected, his ass is on the line. You can blather on and on about hope and change, but when you actually have to make those decisions, hope and change translates into tax and spend.
And as you may have guessed I’m not exactly in love with McCain either. He ain’t a wet dream for Reagan Republicans. But frankly, I don’t give a shit what color he is either, race, color whatever, it doesn’t enter into the equation for me. All I want to know is if the guy can make tough decisions, clean up some of the messes George has made and not screw things up in Iraq so that we can all get on with our goddamn lives.
I look at Obama the same way I look at a quarterback who was drafted in the first round. Sure, he’s got some potential, and he can talk about how he’s going to change the franchise all he wants. Nobody’s going to be able to tell if he’s any good until his ass is on the line. You can’t apply that to McCain, he’s got experience making tough and unpopular decisions.
For that I’m willing to overlook his race and his weird pterodactyl arms.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
or is it Raptor arms, I mean what is that?
August 28th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Obama:
Hope, Change, White Guilt
August 28th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Condoleezza vs Hillary would have been interesting.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
A black President? Yes. This particular one? No.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
59. Lana
So you basicly don’t give a f*** about anybody but yourself.
Sad.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
First I would like to say that I think the racist comments should be left in. It would be a good example of the type of ignorance and backwards thinking that we are talking about here. I don’t think he will be easily assassinated by some dumb methed-up redneck. The secret service is much to good at their job these days for that to happen. It could, however, be done by some highly motivated groups with some kind of military training. If enough people with the will and means wants someone dead bad enough I don’t think it can be stop as long as the person is in the public eye and not in hiding. I really don’t think that is going to happen though. I think what is different in america today than 40 years ago is that most intelligent people have come to except equality as a God given right.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:02 am
I hope he wins, it would be interesting to see what he does with your country, however, if he doesnt, sent him over to South Africa, Well be more then happy to have him.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:08 am
What a ridiculous question. I can’t believe race is still an issue – Go Obama!
August 29th, 2008 at 2:41 am
In America i know it’s not compulsary to votebut judging by some of the comments, if you don’t vote at all, then i believe you have no right to complain about the politics.
If you don’t vote there’s no point going on about how crap a president is because you didn’t even take part.
This isn’t a question about skin colour, but more so who would you prefer McCain or Obama.
may the best man win, and thats Obama
August 29th, 2008 at 3:33 am
I’m not American but I’m curious – how prominent is racism in the US?
August 29th, 2008 at 4:16 am
Well, I’m voting for him and I’m white.
This might make me seem naive, but I think the race issue is exaggerated (perhaps mostly by the republicans) Maybe I’m just hoping that the race issue is only as bad as the Kennedy is catholic issue from 1960. My mother told me that an anti-catholic relative(an in-law) said “Kennedy will let the Pope run the country” and even was glad JFK was assassinated. Those people were a minority, and Kennedy was elected.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:34 am
That is a really racist question. You should be locked up.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:46 am
The greatest president in the world was black – Nelson Mandela, and he was president at a time when people though war would break out between black and whites, apartheid was over for 5 year when he was president, not 45 like the US (they also sort of had apartheid in the 60’s). Anyway, my point being, if he is a great leader, people will love him for that, a poll in south africa the other day stated that about 80% of white people saw Mandela as a great president, and younger white kids (who don’t know what went on in apartheid) absolutely love Mandela. So if Obama is great at what he does, the people will love him for that
August 29th, 2008 at 4:59 am
I believe that a black man or woman with sufficient qualifications can be elected in America. However, if John McCain wins in November that does not necessarily mean that America is not ready for a black president – it just means that it is not ready for Barak Obama, irregardless of whether he is black or white.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:20 am
Well you better be.
There is a huge danger when any party becomes entrenched. Republicans have been in power for 16 years (?), their cronies are in all key positions of power, they act with impunity; Because they can. There is no-one with the necessary clout to stop them. If you want a “fer instance” you can look to the duplicity used against their own players; the lying to and manipulation of both Colin Powell and Condie Rice on the way to war.
We had the same problem after 12 years of Liberal rule here in Canada. Huge scandals and corruption; simply because there was no one to stop them, all the key positions in place to prevent these kinds of excesses were manned by Liberals who’s loyalty to the party and interest in maintaining power were their prime motivations.
New Zealand is having the same problem, their cabinet is about to be dissolved (hopefully eh Jamie?) after years and years of Labour rule. Same problem, all the key players are loyal party followers and their main interest is keeping their cronies in power. Even their speaker of the house is obviously biased. (Thanks to Jayfray for enlightening me)
Absolute power does in fact corrupt absolutely. Black or yellow or green best not be the issue. ‘Tis time for change and the rest of the world is watching.
I believe that keeping the Bush faction in power would be a tragedy of epic proportions and further fuel for the anti-American contingent. You will be doing their recruitment for them.
For all you American voters out there, please watch this before you go to the polls.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/
August 29th, 2008 at 5:34 am
Yes we are, but not him. BO is a liar and a racist [see his statements about his grandmother and other statements from his books]. Certainly someone like JC Watts or Condi Rice would make great presidents. Obama will not. But, that has nothing to do with the fact that he is half black.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:35 am
Drogo #90 – Republicans are exaggerating the race issue? That’s rich. Were you asleep when Geraldine Ferraro said he wouldn’t be where he was if he wasn’t black?
I haven’t heard that kind of crap from McCain.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:40 am
I can’t speak for everyone, but I am ready. I strongly support Obama, even though I have somewhat subdued feelings towards him compared to many people. I don’t see him as a messiah, simply a man with a bit more integrity and intelligence than his opponent. He’s still a politician at heart, and my only real expectation is that he will do what is in his own best interest. Luckily, his best interest is a fairly close parallel to mine.
I’m not expecting a miracle. I know the economy will not recover overnight, I know our troops won’t be home on Jan. 21, and I know gasoline will not magically drop to $1/gallon again. I will be perfectly happy with the following:
1) Provide a timetable and solid list of objectives for ending the war in Iraq. Bringing the troops home immediately is no more viable a solution than leaving them there indefinitely, and “get the bad guys” is not an effective military strategy.
2) Try to restore the Constitution. I know Bush has destroyed it almost beyond recognition, but do your best to put it back together again. A good start would be to completely void the “Patriot Act” and to make warrantless wiretaps illegal again.
3) Put serious effort into finding alternative energy sources. I know Obama is from the midwest and ethanol is a tempting option, but I do not consider using valuable food as fuel as a valid idea. We’re already seeing the results of thinning the corn supply…now we get to pay $4/gallon of both gasoline AND milk.
If Obama can do these things in his first term, I will back him for as long as he remains in politics. If he can’t or doesn’t at least attempt them, he will be just another politician in my book.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:43 am
Tsiamon ~ FDR was indeed in a wheelchair, but he didn’t run for office in a wheelchair and he was careful not to appear in public in a wheelchair, back in those days your life was easier to keep private.
Mom424 ~ President Bush was duely elected *twice* by the American people. And why do people think the Democrates are going to save America from the big bad Republicans? Guess what? They’re even worse! You can keep your socialized medicine in Canada, thank you. Some of us want less government, not more.
Also, there are three branches of government. The president is not the sole leader of our country. And while I’m ranting, if dems are so superior, why didn’t Clinton/Gore solve more problems? So-called climate change? Dependence on oil? Terrorism? Poverty? They’re all talk. Every last one of them, whatever color they are.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:44 am
I dont live in America, but i think that a black president wold be one of the biggest happenings in America, ever. about 300 years ago, the only thing blacks were capable of doing in america was physical labour, under terrible working conditions, along with being beaten by white men. Now i say this with 100% certainty, BARACK OBAMA will win the 2008 presidential election.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:44 am
#57 Ringtailroxy
“now, I am well aware of Clinton’s part in the bombing of South Africa”
Do tell…
August 29th, 2008 at 5:55 am
rushfan – Clinton didn’t solve more problems because he was banging the help in the hallway and the oval office and then lying his ass off about it. I’m not W’s biggest fan, but can you imagine where we’d be if Gore had his way in Florida? I’ve seen cardboard cutouts that were smarter than that hypocrite douchenozzle.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:56 am
yes, i definitely think so, but for me it’s about a change in leadership and direction for america rather than skin color. race/ethnicity was never a factor for me. unfortunately, for some in my area (michigan, usa) it is. i have seen quite a few “crush osama obama and chelsea’s mama” bumper stickers and even a church sign on my way to work which read “obama. osama. brothers?” the “osama” thing seems to be the main point of these people here, or as my zealot neighbors constantly remind me: “—-his middle name IS hussein, you know!” prejudice like that just disgusts me. i personally admire obama and i think he has the potential to start america back on the path to economic stability and to restore our image as a responsible and respectable nation in the eyes of the world.
that said, this november i will rock out with my barack out!
August 29th, 2008 at 6:16 am
I’m just hoping that the US get a GOOD President no matter what colour or sex or their inclination may be.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:16 am
bucslim:
You HONESTLY don’t think we would have been better off with Gore over Bush the last 8 years? HONESTLY?
Come on pal. This, again, is what drove me away from conservatism, as I’d previously been driven from liberalism–the mendacity. You always make a big deal about being disgusted, to some degree, with both ideologies and parties, and thus implying that there is some level of honesty in copping this attitude. But any fool can see that 8 years of Gore would certainly have been no worse, and almost certainly a great deal better, than what we’ve had under Bush, quite likely the worse president we’ve had since Warren Harding’s administration. Gore dumb? Please. He’s been wooden, and unappealing, and nondescript at times… but he’s never been dumb.
Anyway, YES, America is ready for a black president. And my sense is that we’ll have one come November.
But what I applaud is that we’ll be back to having an intelligent, capable, visionary leader in the white house (if Obama wins) which is what we have NOT had the last 8 years, and would certainly NOT have if McCain won. Again, all this bullshit about Obama “not being experienced” and so on, is just that—bullshit. We’re in greater danger with an incapable, tempermental, addle-minded McCain minding our “security” than a man with the judgement and character that Obama clearly has.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:19 am
oh and by the way, please… no dragging me into drawn-out debates. It’s the start of the semester here at the Uni, and I’m up to my neck in students, paperwork, classes, meetings, seminars, orientations, get-togethers at the Dean’s place, impromptu faculty discussions and god knows what else.
So please just step aside, acknowledge my correctness in all things, and say, “yes Randall, sir.”
August 29th, 2008 at 6:21 am
Yes the US is ready for a black,white,yellow,brown President.The color of skin should not matter nor affect our decision.However, I don’t think that we are ready for Barak Obama.He wants to make everything better for those who are already wealthy and powerful,but what about the rest of us? Who will stand up for us if not our own apposed Leader.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:21 am
oh and by the way, please… no dragging me into drawn-out debates
Randall – deal. But, in return, we expect a full descriptive report on this year’s intake of co-eds
August 29th, 2008 at 6:21 am
I think that the whole of Europe and maybe the aussies and kiwis too are much more enthusiast about Obama than Americans. Take a poll in Europe and he”ll win it by a landslide. Look at the turn out in Berlin. But then in Europe apart from the Nationalist (racist)parties and populists (who speak only in oneliners, but don’t have no solution) everybody ( even the most conservatives) are moving to the left (that’s more liberal for americans).
Would be difficult in my believe to sell right wing politics over here. Hit first, ask questions later is how Bush is seen here I think. Someone who promises that this will change gets lots of credit. And then somehow there is the JFK angle, lots of people see hin as the new Kennedy.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Rushfan: You are missing my point. Regardless of my personal politics ( I voted Conservative in the last 2 elections by the way ), it is dangerous to have the same party in power for an extended period of time. They can do what they want because no-one will stop them.
Did you know that Bush set up a separate intelligence operation, controlled directly by the White House, when the CIA and Military Intelligence would not give him the information he WANTED to justify going to war? Would that have been possible had he been a first term Republican?
By the way, your tone sucks. Lighten up, you’re appearing nasty.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Bucslim ~ Agreed. I literally thought “thank god Gore isn’t president” on 9/11.
Oh, and, No, sir, Randall. Enjoy your life in the liberal world of academia.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:32 am
Mom, I went back and reread your original post. Bush was in office for 8 years, before him clinton for 8. The Congress was Republican for a long time, but really only able to accomplish welfare reform on Clinton’s watch. Our gov. goes into gridlock quite often. My point was that it’s all the same shit no matter who’s “in power.” There are a few people trying desperately to cut the pork and protect the environment and focus on national security, but the vast majority are power hungry fucknuts. And do some serious research into the intelligence used to justify the war and you’ll find more countries than just the US had faulty intel. Do you really believe Bush set up a blah blah blah CIA blah blah, what am I saying, of course you do. Oh, and not trying to be nasty, just concerned my nation is going to be swayed into electing the guy who wants to control my thermosdat and take my SUV away.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:37 am
Alright Randall, I’ll bite this one time. Yes I do believe he’s dumb. Dumber than Bush, debatable. Probably no worse off than we are now, ok I accept, begrudgingly.
You can’t deny he’s a hypocrite though, that’s a stone cold fact. Pushing off this suspect idea that we’re headed towards a climate induced doomsday and demanding that we all change our attitudes and lifestyles about energy while burning enough jet fuel to light up the countries he flies to, spreading his weak gospel. And the cherry on top is energy bills to heat, cool and electrify his personal home that top $30,000. He wants you to change, and he’ll fly anywhere to tell you to do it. Now that, my esteemed friend, is what I call dumb. And it’s also at the very heart of liberalism. That sort of smug, ‘higher ground’ bullshit that they all demand you to change but have no intention of doing it themselves.
Just keep telling yourself Obama will cure all your problems pal. He’s gonna buy us all a Coke and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. Just remember one thing, the Beatles sang All You Need is Love, . . . then they broke up because they were ready to kill each other.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:41 am
You would think it would be easy to win against McCain considering the he is not even eligible. He was born in Panama which immediately disqualifies him.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:47 am
BTW Randall I admit to likening Gore to the SNL parody of him. “We’re going to put that money in a laawk baawcks”
August 29th, 2008 at 6:48 am
Anyone voting for race over issues doesn’t deserve to vote.
That said, I think we’re ready for a black/woman/gay/insert minority here/ president as long as he or she is competant and not only being voting in because they are an anomoly.
As a side note, LV seems to be made up of educated youngish men and women. Please go vote in November. It really does make a difference.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:51 am
McCain announces his VP today. I hope he’s a good one. Or maybe one that has some of the same stances on issues.
Obama would have been wise to take a page from that book….
August 29th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Nice try, Zylen. So do you want to disqualify all kids born on military bases outside of the states?
August 29th, 2008 at 6:57 am
The simple fact is that we do need change. I don’t hold Bush 100% responsible for the current situation in America, but I do feel he is one of the key reasons things are the way they are.
Bush did not cause all of our problems. The people he appointed to positions of power (whether by choice or obligation) did most of that for him. When Bush decides to do something and people tell him it is a bad idea, he just digs in harder. This would not be a problem if we were only contending with a stubborn president, but he surrounded himself with “yes men” and puppet masters. Our situation with Iraq is the result of having multiple factions with multiple goals all competing for the ear of the man with the authority.
In my opinion, we’d be much better off if Gore or Kerry had been elected instead. Yes both would bring a whole new set of problems to the table, but they would not have the near totalitarian authority Bush has built for himself. I am not saying this as a dem, as I don’t make my decisions based on party.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Ha!!! You’re funny Mr. Mojo!
August 29th, 2008 at 7:15 am
Rushfan…rules are rules. You must be a natural born citizen to be President. There are good reasons for that stipulation which should not be dismissed just because someone was born on a military base outside of the U.S.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:16 am
bucslim, (112),
“Pushing off this suspect idea that we’re headed towards a climate induced doomsday and demanding that we all change our attitudes and lifestyles about energy while burning enough jet fuel to light up the countries he flies to, spreading his weak gospel. And the cherry on top is energy bills to heat, cool and electrify his personal home that top $30,000. He wants you to change, and he’ll fly anywhere to tell you to do it. Now that, my esteemed friend, is what I call dumb. And it’s also at the very heart of liberalism. That sort of smug, ‘higher ground’ bullshit that they all demand you to change but have no intention of doing it themselves.
Oh, it’s real, pal, it’s real. Forget politicians who lie and manipulate either because they enjoy it, or no one will vote for them if they tell the truth (fact). Try asking a hundred or a thousand of the world’s most respected relevant scientists and see how many deny man-driven climate change. It’s their study, my friend, not politican’s. Like you get a pilot to fly a plane, or a surgeon to operate on you, not a politician.
And yes, we have the same sort of save-the-planet book-writing mouth-shooting heroes down here who live like Lord Muck. That doesn’t make me believe climate change is bollox, I know it isn’t from my own work. It makes me despair.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:29 am
P.S.
It will be interesting to see whether, how and how much the issue called *global warming* figures in you presidential election. Perhaps it is there, but I’m not myself aware of significant groundswell interest from the voters.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:31 am
bucslim:
“Just keep telling yourself Obama will cure all your problems pal.”
yeah, okay buddy. You can keep trying to dismiss people’s enthusiasm over him thusly… but it won’t work.
It’s particularly insulting to MOI, as you know very well I am no mindless follower. I don’t believe for a moment that “Obama will cure all my problems” or all OUR problems or anything of the kind. I think you know this very well. I, and others, have logical and quite strong reasons for supporting Obama.
out of time. Hopefully will check in later.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Anon – sorry, you’re just not going to prove that to me. I spent quite a bit of my time arguing this in the ‘your view’ question on global warming.
But I do love the usage of the word bollox.
August 29th, 2008 at 7:32 am
kiwiboi:
“Randall – deal. But, in return, we expect a full descriptive report on this year’s intake of co-eds”
You GOT it, my friend.
(so, so many hotties… dear god I love my job).
August 29th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Anon ~ There is actually quite a bit of legitimate debate about the science of “global warming.”
“NASA now begrudgingly confirms that the hottest year on record in the continental 48 was not 1998, as previously believed, but 1934, and that six of the 10 hottest years since 1880 antedate 1954. Data from 3,000 scientific robots in the world’s oceans show there has been slight cooling in the past five years, never mind that “80% to 90% of global warming involves heating up ocean waters,” according to a report by NPR’s Richard Harris.”
August 29th, 2008 at 7:42 am
The question now becomes, is America ready for a WOMAN VICE-PRESIDENT??? McCain picked Sarah Palin, Alaska’s governor.
Sorry, I’m excited.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:10 am
frankly I’m not sure if the USA is ready for barack (or a black president) but the rest of the world sure is. And it’s gotten to the point where it doesn’t even MATTER, mccain is such a screw up that you HAVE to take the alternative…at least the alternative is good for once though…
August 29th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I think we ARE ready. I worry a small bit him possibly being assassinated by some crazy NRA-KKK nutjob, but you run those risks no matter who is elected. We’ve had all white males as President in the past, and some of THEM got assassinated, did they not?
I support Obama and I will be dancing into the polls in November to cast my vote for him. He is well spoken, intelligent, and when I watch his speeches, I BELIEVE what he is saying. I’m usually very cynical when it comes to politicians. McCain just seems slimy and mean to me. Not just because he’s old, and not just because he’s a Republican. I like Reagan even if I was a baby when he was in office, from seeing him on TV and stuff when I was older, and reading about him.
I know Obama can’t do EVERYTHING he is promising, I’m not that naive to blindly believe. (Pardon the rhyme, lol…) However, at least when I think about a future with him as President, I see it as a possibility.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:35 am
IN 88
“In America i know it’s not compulsary to votebut judging by some of the comments, if you don’t vote at all, then i believe you have no right to complain about the politics.
If you don’t vote there’s no point going on about how crap a president is because you didn’t even take part.”
I disagree entirely, not voting can be a form of protest and if I opt to not vote because neither option represents what I believe than I still have every right to complain that the person elected is doing a horrible job because I was not even given a choice to my liking. That is called Freedom of Speech and until it is taken away I have every right to use it as I see fit.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:53 am
rushfan: I, for one, am ready for a woman VP- especially this one. Have you seen her? She’s totally hot. I would definitely give her an additional 5 kids.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Obama must NOT lose.
If he loses, that means another man will win, a terrible, archconservative bastard that is Cain.
If Obama loses I won’t move to the USA as planned, because a dark future will await you.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Dread Pirate:
I beg to differ
While I doubt a different party will ever get elected, there are more than two options. Additionally, there is never going to be a “perfect” candidate for you or anyone else. Some things in parties are direct contrasts of each other. (conservative values include pro- death penalty AND pro-life, for example)
If you don’t have an opinion to vote, you shouldn’t have an opinion when things go wrong.
If you have a young child and give it no rules, isn’t it hypocritical to yell at that child when it does something wrong? Same thing.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Color does not come into play for me. I was raised to treat all people the same, but Senator Obama is not the one for my presidential office. I can’t vote for him at all. Sorry, I have to have a firm belief that he is capable and that he is what this country needs and I just don’t. Were there a Colin Powell sitting as a candidate, I’d vote for him in a millisecond. I admire him tremendously. Anyway, do I think America is ready, well some would say yes, some would say no, but I can only speak for me and I say yes. Just not Senator Obama, in my opinion.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Well, there you are, all you good folks in the voting line. The McCain chips are down (via my Chilean on-line newspaper). If he gets picked, you’ll be a cardio-vascular accident away from Palin as Presient. And that’s Sarah, not Michael, by the way.
Hope you’re ready for that.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:32 am
This election, kind of like the last elections, I wasn’t really too keen on the presidents to be swayed to vote one way or the other.
Honestly I really hope that Hilary doesn’t win, and not because she’s a female, but because she contradicts herself way to much .
if obama wasn’t black would there be that much controversy, probably not. I really don’t care if he was black or white, if he can do a good job as our president. Im pretty sure most anyone is going to be better than george bush jr.
People at this day and age.. really really need to get over the skin color issues. its not a different race, its a differnt type of race. the race being human. There are many different types of human, but in the end.. we are all still human.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Uh, Mike, you need to crush some tinfoil on those rabbit ears around your brain pal. McCain isn’t ‘archconservative.’ Just ask Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter.
Jeez, typical liberal hysteria.
And Anon, I’d like to remind you that if Obama wins, we’re also a cardiovascular event away from one of the biggest pantloads in the senate.
Wanderer – not sure if you’ve picked up a paper recently, but Hilary probably isn’t going to win now since she lost the nomination.
August 29th, 2008 at 9:49 am
F*ck that! We need Homer Jay Simpson in the White House! Hahahah
August 29th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Rushfan: Certainly hope if McCain gets into office he doesn’t die. How old is he? How much political experience does Palin have? How much international experience? Lots, I forgot she is a former Miss Alaska. Rather ironic that the same qualities (lack of experience etc.) are going to be used to justify Palin as McCain’s running-mate as were and are being used as a weapon against Obama.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:01 am
O….kay. Last night Obama makes one of the most stirring and powerful political speeches of….oh, say the last 30 years at least…. once again indicating, by the forcefulness and clear specifics (NOTE: *SPECIFICS*) of said speech that he’s got the character, wisdom, judgement and strength to be president…
…and then today McCain names, as his VP choice… some nondescript (albeit sweet-looking) and *utterly* inexperienced MILF?
Uh huh.
o…. kay.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:01 am
120. Zylen: Do you think they hadn’t considered that before? Military bases are technically American soil, so if you’re born on a base, you are born not in America but on American soil. He’s American, nice try.
To answer the question: not entirely. I can’t pretend to have my fingers on the pulse of America, but most people I talk to are open-minded enough about race to vote for the party or the best candidate. There are many, many people, however, I do *not* talk to. Those are the people I worry about.
I am voting for Obama. I don’t believe magic rainbows and the repopulation of the American Bald Eagle will come of his presidency, but damn, great choice with Biden. That’s what won me over.
Clever choice on VP, McCain, clever choice. You sly white devil, you.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:14 am
bucslim, (137),
“And Anon, I’d like to remind you that if Obama wins, we’re also a cardiovascular event away from one of the biggest pantloads in the senate.”
What are the insurance risk stats for that then, at his age? Don’t you mean an assassination event? In which case you could blame your extreme rednecks for any pantload of shite you and the rest of us are lumbered with.
Or are they a good reason for not *risking* Obama?
August 29th, 2008 at 10:29 am
i say yes. his skin color doesnt make a difference. hes a good candidate(sp?). but i think its a good (possible) change out of routine
August 29th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Randall: I am in agreement. Haven’t heard such a stirring speech since Kennedy. Thanks to Beany for providing me the webcast last night.
My fingers are crossed.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:59 am
As a Canadian i think that America is ready for a black president for the most part. i think that certain areas such as the deep south there will be more issues with it but overall i think Americans are ready. However, having said this i would be shocked if there wasn’t an attempt on his life. Looking back in time Presidents with more open views (for the time they held office) didn’t fare very well i.e. Lincoln and Kennedy but we can’t give up hope. GO OBAMA!
August 29th, 2008 at 11:11 am
As an outsider, with all the advantages and limitations of that perspective, just a quick look in on this new Sarah Palin situation. Without wishing to judge or blame her personally in any way, it looks as though there might have been a tactic to pick up the loose Hillary votes by her choice. I.e., the McCain votes are settled, the Obaba votes are settled. The Clinton votes are up for grabs and will probably make the difference.
If, I’m right, and it may well not be the case I freely admit, is that the basis you Americans want a stand-in president chosen from? I will state that I imagine we in the rest of the world don’t need that and would find it deeply disturbing.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Wow, these kinds of things are popping up all over the place. I think that yes, America is ready for Obama and would have been ready for a woman too if a better one had been offered. I guess I’m just not sure what all the hub-bub is about. He’s a politician just like any other. I mean, I guess there’s novelty value to some based on superficial appearance and due to that he can appeal to minority demographics that may have been previously overlooked/unreachable by other politicans. I just don’t understand why people are making such a big deal about it. If he gets elected time will tell if he makes a good president or not. He promises to bring change to the white house and unite the people for the greater good of the country. If he is elected and is able to keep his word and make good on all those promises (surely a feat for any politician, lol), then that would be a very good thing for our country indeed.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:51 am
We’ll soon find out? Truth be told, given the stark contrast between the two candidates, their relative intelligence, health, vitality, their allegiance or opposition to failed Bush policies, and especially the competence of their counsel, their wives and running mates. If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Why shouldn’t we be? (although I do know some people in the south that still think they won the Civil War) We’re all about the freedom to do pretty much whatever we want in accordance to the law, and as far as I know Mr. Obama running for president isn’t against the law. So yes we are ready.
On a side note I personally do not like the term “African-American”, he was born in The United States of America, therefore he is an AMERICAN.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
And for those of you who may be undecided come voting time. When in doubt vote Nader! (I don’t know if he’s running this year but I think it’s a funny little saying.)
August 29th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
This list makes me sad. =( Your skin color, gender, speaking ability, etc. have NOTHING to do with your actions in office.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
t_man, agree about African-American, it’s too long. When I was a lad writing term papers for social studies, we used the word Negro, ugh! Black is best.
Disagree about voting for Nader, that’s just splitting your vote between the two viable candidates.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
anon:
Yes, clearly it’s a cheap tactic, on McCain’s part, to pick up disgruntled Hillary voters. But I’ve said all along–if those people were so hooked on Hillary that they won’t vote for Obama, then they’re not really democrats anyway, and certainly are piss-poor citizens in any event… and are almost certainly just crypto-racists. OR so insanely “feminist” that they’d vote for the carbonized corpse of Eva Braun if she were running for president over ANY male in creation.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
You know, t_man, when I voted for the first time at 18, I did vote for Nader lol!
August 29th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
I won’t be voting for Obama but I did like when he said “if I do lose this presidential race it won’t be because I’m black”. That to me was very refreshing and says how far we have come.
August 29th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Randall,
“OR so insanely “feminist” that they’d vote for the carbonized corpse of Eva Braun if she were running for president over ANY male in creation.”
Wow, thank God the sanctified mortal remains of Evita Peron aren’t running then!
August 29th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Yep, Black Female here and I think we are ready. Look at all the bull thats going on now. This world can’t get any worse. Obama is a great man. Why pass on a great leader because some small minded people are not “ready” for someone whose skin color isnt white to become presedent. I could go on and on but I gotta go home. Getting off work
August 29th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Sarah Palin is a stunningly poor choice. With McCain’s age and health issues a concern, why would you select someone who is so obviously not qualified to assume the duties of the president, should that be necessary?
August 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Yogi,i I think you can argue that she has just as much experience as Obama. She is running a state which I think comes closer to the Presidents responsibilities than a legislator. Being a Governor makes her Commander & Chief of the National Guard of Alaska. Plus I think overall she has more life experiences than Obama.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
The bigger question is, is America in need of a President who can begin to bring our Nation into the 21st century with intelligence, pride, integrity and decisiveness?
I think that that answer is yes, something long overdue.
Barack O’bama has won my vote with his marvelous grasp of the problems and difficulties that he will inherit if he is elected to office. He has shown a desire to move our country towards a more positive and creative future. He has outlined a multi-faceted game plan for a long term goal of success that is based on the strengths of a new generation of thinkers and doers.
This is the person we need to represent our Nation, and I don’t see where race comes into that question at all.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
bucslim, (124)
“Anon – sorry, you’re just not going to prove that to me. I spent quite a bit of my time arguing this in the ‘your view’ question on global warming.”
Just noticed this. This is one of your serious entries, ya? Not comix bollox!
Well, so have I (spent time on the global warming site). If you don’t accept the twin spearheads of the issue, I certainly can’t convince you. You’ll just have to wait and see if you are right, and hope so. They are:
1)The vast majority of scientists have now accepted the issue, including those who have spent their careers studying all the disciplines involved.
2) That if you are right we can carry on as before and you can turn round and tell me, “I told you so”. If you are wrong you might not be here to hear me say that and I might not be here to say it to you. You wouldn’t even take that risk, so you must have 100% proof that you are correct. Yes? Otherwise why would you not take precautions *just in case* for your sake, your kids sake (if you have any), and for everything on this planet you hold dear (if only LV)?
If someone says “Doctors don’t know shit about medicine and there’s nothing wrong with me”, I guess that’s the end of any argument though.
And no. I’m not going to prove that to you. How on earth can I, or anyone else? The only thing that will *prove* it is by hindsight should it happen. (I’m optimistic: assuming survivors, note.) All we can do is look at unusual related phenomena and make well-educated guesses at what they signify. That’s what scientists do, from lifetimes of study, research and experience. And then they get together and add up their data, see how much agrees, what is forming patterns and what fulfils earlier predictions of many kinds. This is the work that has convinced them. They now need the backing of the rest of us, but will have to count without yours. I only hope they can count on the next U.S. president, black or white.
August 29th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
his color matters about as much as his favorite color
seriously
he is the man for the job
whether you agree that he is best for the job or not, his color doesnt matter
think: would you (dis)agree as much if he was white?
i know i would still vote for him
i dont want to see 4 more years of the same, plus he has interesting and good policies, go look at them, listin to him speak
August 29th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
I think the majority of the country is ready for Obama & I’ll be voting for him in November.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Anon: oh yeah, I caught that, too. McCain is so saucy with his sneakiness, blinding us with her voluptuous ta-tas in hopes that he can shove her in front of him and equate somewhere near “even” for asthetics.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Yogi said: “If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide”
Yogi, is it at all possible that if Obama was not black he would not be where he is politically speaking.
Yogi said: “If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide”
Yogi, is it at all possible that if Obama was not black he would not be where he is politically speaking?
I’m not asking that in a snotty condescending way. Someone asked me that question and I had to admit that he probably wouldn’t.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
The Obama campaign calling Palin inexperienced is a joke. Maybe they should take a look at their own candidate before making comparisons. Sarah Palin is the only individual involved in this election with one minute’s experience in an executive branch of government. What expertise do Obama and Biden have on energy policy? None. Palin ran one of the largest energy producing states in the nation. Legislative experience does not always transfer to executive success. I’m not saying that Palin has the experience necessary to run for President, but neither does Obama, and she isn’t running for President. Obama is. Just because McCain picks someone inexperienced to cast the tie-breaking vote in the Senate, that doesn’t negate the fact that Obama is just as inexperienced and he is running to lead the country.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Sorry for the double talk. I guess I’m a typical politician
August 29th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Yes.
Anyone that is not ready is a stupid racist that is too blind to see how smart Obama is.
August 29th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
I agree Dave
The Obama’s campaign first put out a statement saying :
“Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency”
Then they retracted it and said
“We send our congratulations to Governor Palin and her family on her designation as the Republican nominee for vice president. Her selection is yet another encouraging sign that all barriers are falling in our politics and while we obviously have differences over how to best lead this country forward Governor Palin is an admirable person and will add a compelling new voice to this campaign.”
I guess they could see the writing on the wall.
August 29th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I think the more important question here is “IS HE CAPABLE” well i think so? an hope so? O-B-A-M-A! O-B-A-M-A! O-B-A-M-A!
August 29th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
wow seriously? why does everyone keep saying mccain will be just the same as bush? does no one pay any attention to congress? mccain has gone against the bush administration more than any other republican in the entire congress. just because he’s white and a republican doesnt mean he’ll be the same as bush. maybe you should ask the question if america is ready for a moderate politician? because he’s not that conservative. he’s like leiberman but conservative instead of liberal.
but what really made me laugh this week was hillary clinton endorsing obama after all the bashing she did against him during the primaries. that made my week.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Barack Obama is a good man. A far more intelligent and wise than McCain. If America chooses to deny themselves the best candidate for president they’ve ever had (almost), it’s on their heads. He needs to win. If he doesn’t, we’re down the shitter.
I can’t decide if America is ready. But I am.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
THANK YOU DAVE! Well said.
Palin is not running for President, but Obama is, but if you want to be a stickler, day count-wise she has more experience than he does.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Some Americans are ready and some are not, I don’t care what color his skin is, I only care that Obama, being the better candidate should win. It’s likely people will vote or not vote for him based on his race and not his political stance, and that is unfortunate, but it is also life. I will be voting for the first time in my life in November, and I guarantee Barack Obama’s skin color will not be a factor in my vote.
August 29th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
I don’t understand the “nice try” comments directed at me about McCain not being eligible considering the government itself felt it needed to pass a resolution making McCain a natural born citizen. A resolution which was, oddly enough endorsed,by Hillary and Obama. If an American base on foreign land is considered American soil this would not have been necessary.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Zylen, I don’t think the 14th Amendment was written to change the rules of who could be the President, it was to determine citizenship. I don’t think the founders would have agreed to rule out someone in McCain’s position. I mean come on, he was born on a military base because his father was serving his country.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
I think we are ready, but with McCain choosing a female as a Vice President running mate, America will be seen as sexist if Obama wins, and racist if McCain wins
August 29th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Well I don’t care about the colour of a person’s skin in relation to power. That said, I don’t like him not because he is black. I’m afraid the best guy for this job is Ron Paul who isn’t running any more.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
It should no longer matter in America what color a person is. We ARE ready for a GOOD president, and Obama is that person.
August 29th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
It’s terrible in this day and age that this question should even be asked. He’s HUMAN!!! He should be judged upon his achievements, policies etc. Move on peoples.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Oh my god he’s black, He has a different skin color so we all must seclude him from our other great presidents (Those very few…)I think the U.S needs to get over the bullshit about how if someone is a different color you must hate them.I in fact,Would vote for Mr.Obama,too bad i cant.Truly i put more Faith in Obama than in any other candidate right now,i watched his speech,amazing,he knows what the American people need and want,and he knows what he is talking about.Very Intelligent man,Obama 08!!!
August 29th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
According to Liam:
“best candidate for president they’ve ever had (almost)”
So now we’ve gone from the Democratic nominee to the best candidate ever? Read that carefully, THE BEST CANDIDATE EVER. So Roosevelt, Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson et al were less qualified than Obama? First time I’ve heard that.
Did someone see the Virgin Mary’s likeness on his cheek or something? Give me a break!
August 29th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Yeah. Watching Obama’s speech solidified my decision to vote for McCain. What did he really say? he just made 28 promises, and i seriously seriously doubt that the majority of them will ever occur. Yeah he gave a speech, didnt really say anything though.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
I think that the topic is moot. Anyone who votes Democratic generally opposes Republicans to begin with, and generally, democratic supporters are not racist. People who support Republican values and commitments will vote Republican anyways. If anything, the color of Obama’s skin has only HELPED him! I honestly think that Americans are readier for a black president than say, a woman president.
At this point Obama is just the lesser of two evils. I do not think he is anywhere NEAR prepared for presidency, but another Republican would be FAAAR worse.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I think Obama will win not because he’s white but because he’s a democrat. We are a little bit tired and bored of the republicans.
White or Black president, racism issues can never be eradicated in a country of people with such diverse backgrounds. We need to get over our colour, religion, creed, etc. if we are to progress as a nation.
I just hope that we don’t have a situation like South Africa where racism roles got reversed post-aparthied.
August 30th, 2008 at 1:05 am
Wowww… nice listverse.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/Flugy14/dfgh.jpg
In my opinion you shouldn’t advertise a political candidate on a page discussing your views on one, especially another.
August 30th, 2008 at 2:24 am
ptbus0: Lol… that is an advertisement? Maybe I should turn ad-blocker off
August 30th, 2008 at 2:28 am
Oh god… I just turned it back on.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:31 am
The question is racist by it’s nature. The question should be “is Obama qualified to be President ?”. If you add the word “black” you make it race based and not qualification based and therfore you are racist by asking the question. The answer is – he does not have enough experience to be President.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:39 am
I’m not American but I lived there for quite a while and I believe it’s about damn time!
August 30th, 2008 at 3:59 am
The question is racist by it’s nature. The question should be “is Obama qualified to be President?”. If you add the word “black” you make it race based and not qualification based
Wamus – Get real…Obama’s ethnicity has been of key interest in the entire race for the presidency. The question is topical, relevant, and inoffensive.
and therfore you are racist by asking the question.
Get over yourself.
August 30th, 2008 at 4:02 am
and therfore you are racist by asking the question.
Get over yourself.
** oops..typo in #191
August 30th, 2008 at 4:03 am
and therfore you are racist by asking the question.
Get over yourself.
** oops..typo in #191
August 30th, 2008 at 5:00 am
this is a little off topic from the actual question at hand, but i think that the fact that Obama is black is giving more reputation and popularity than he would have if he was the typical presidential race (white).
I also think that the fact that he is black is getting him more support from younger voters. i know that people like me who just turned 18 and have been watching Bush since the fifth grade are ready for a big change in the USA and feel that Barrack Obama will be it.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Just a few comments. I think America is ready for a black president. I don’t think Obama is ready though. Heck, I even like the Governor from Louisiana. Bobby Jindal, he’s Indian.
As someone had said, it falls along the lines of Liberal and Conservative more than it does race. People need to look past Bush and not connect all republicans with him.
I saw where Obama is not totally black. Here’s the snippet….
“”Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs.. Barack Hussein Obama’s father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro).”
Don’t know what to take of this. I guess he’s still officially black if you only go by skin color, but really of arab descent.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:06 am
to #181
Nick Palla: How can one man (your savior Obama) know whats best for an entire country of people from countless different backgrounds?
people think that because he is different, because he deviates from the norm of politics, that he will bring some miraculous transformation to the US society. if one was to take all his ideas, strategies, etc. and compare them to those of another recent democratic president; they would find barely any differences at all. the deciding factor in this race will ironically be, race.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:29 am
what a stupid question. this isn’t a matter of race. the us has been ready for a black president for a long time. or some other sort of minority that doesn’t follow the WASP template.
what matters here as stated many, many times above is not the color of obama’s skin, what his parents chose to name him, or what his ancestors did hundreds of years ago. what matters is issues facing america NOW, the pointless expensive war in iraq, increasing higher education costs (i pay 20 grand a year to be taught in broken engrish by some chinese man who really knows his math, but not his english….and no that’s not racist), the increasing cost of food, and the despicable situation regarding our public primary and secondary schools.
i don’t care if our next president is green with purple spots, as long as he makes america once again the greatest country in the world.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:33 am
What’s disgusting are these ugly false rumors about him being a “secret Muslim” (whatever the hell that means) and that he was educated in a terrorist madrassa, blah blah blah.
Even if he was Muslim, why is that such a dirty word? Muslim does not equal terrorist!
August 30th, 2008 at 5:36 am
It’s also disgusting how all the conservative columnists and writers ALWAYS refer to him as “Barack HUSSEIN Obama,” just to keep reminding everybody that maybe, just maybe, he actually is a “secret Muslim!” “Look folks, his name is Hussein! Just like that terrorist dictator bad guy in Iraq that we fought against! He must be a Muslim terrorist too! Vote John McCain! White guys for America!”
August 30th, 2008 at 5:44 am
i pay 20 grand a year to be taught in broken engrish by some chinese man who really knows his math, but not his english….and no that’s not racist
Oh, really? So why, when apparently making a point about higher costs of education, do you feel the need to refer to “engrish”? And why also specify that your teacher is “some chinese man”?
August 30th, 2008 at 6:30 am
Yes. Good luck Barack Obama. Too bad I can’t vote
Would have for Hillary Clinton heh.
August 30th, 2008 at 6:37 am
I’d want a black man, or a man of any race to be president over a woman. I’ll tell you that much.
August 30th, 2008 at 7:08 am
Munken, When it comes down to it, it really is every man for himself.
Sad, yes, but it’s also the truth.
Don’t try to convince yourself it’s not like that.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:24 am
with the number of race baiters in this country, jesse jackson, and al sharpton chief among them, a black president will be the downfall of this country. racism has experienced a complete turnaround, where whites have less rights than non whites, due to white liberal guilt over the past, a past that aforementioned people can’t seem to get over. slavery was a terrible thing, but it can no longer be used as an excuse for the problems of america’s black communities.
August 30th, 2008 at 10:25 am
no we arent ready
and before you say RACISTLOLOLOL” let me explain
what are the three things that should not matter in politics
race
gender
religion
what are we voting off of?
race
gender
religion
half the stuff you see on TV is spewing this garbage against the candidates
we arent ready
we neverwill be ready
not until we can stop focusing on useless things such as race and cant focus on what really matters
WHAT THEY WILL DO FOR US
August 30th, 2008 at 10:26 am
and i HATE MY TYPOS
you get my point
August 30th, 2008 at 10:34 am
I think the US is ready for the person best suited to do the job. Why should skin color enter the equation?
August 30th, 2008 at 11:14 am
I don’t think that a persons race should have an effect on politics any more than religion or sex does. Voting is like hiring, you should consider if the person can do the job, if they have the experience, can they tell you where they plan to be in 5 years (I never liked that job interview question).
However remember that Obama is not totally “black” either. He is really multi-racial, although I am not an Obama fan, I think being multi-racial really points to how the future of America should be, where race does not effect relationships or jobs or anything.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Yes, but not this commie punk.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
yes. we have been ready but even when we do have a “black” president, black people will still complain about equality.
i put quotations around “black” because i dont even consider him black.if he is half and half i can consider him white or black, right? or is it “politically incorrect” to do so?
August 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I’m just still trying to get over that Randall said MILF.
haha
August 30th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
LOL, the ad at the top of the page is for an “interracial dating” site. Hmm….
August 30th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
I think that we are, and that’s proven just by the fact of how far he’s already come. There is a good chance that he will win this coming election.
August 30th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Usually, I am careful to read every post before adding my own. In this instance, I have purposefully *NOT* read any of the posts above.
I wanted to make sure I posted only my opinion, and avoided reacting to anything anyone else had posted.
I believe that America is ready for a black President, but that really is the smaller question this year.
*Is America ready for a brilliant, eloquent leader who will put the needs of the American middle-class people first, and the needs of the super-rich America second?
*Is America ready for a President who is ready to admit that the war in Iraq was a mistake from the start, and is ready to both create a reasonable timetable for withdrawal and beef-up the war in Afganistan?
*Is America ready for a President who not only believes the scientists about global warming, but is ready to immediately implement programs to fight it?
*Is America ready for a President who has proven his dedication to the common man, by turning his back on an assured high-profile, high-salaried job on Wall Street, to organize the poor and disinfranchized on Chicago’s South side.
*Is America ready for a President (and Vice-President), who believes women deserve equal pay for equal work, and a choice in her own reproduction.
America is ready. Are the “talking heads” and “commentators” ready?
August 30th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
I think only half of America is ready for a black man to be president. The civil rights movement was only forty years ago, a time filled with lynchings, murders and bombings, and most of that generation is still alive. People are stubborn and stuck in their ways plus the kids that grew up around that kind of hate usually develop the same hate they see their parents display. Those people alone won’t give obama their vote regardless of how they feel about the issues. I wish I could say that we as a nation have advanced past this but it hasn’t happened yet. Plus hillary should be president she gets my write in vote.
August 30th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
black or white American? whatever, as long as he’s a good leader. skin color doesn’t matter.
August 30th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
it don’t matter if you’re black or white
August 30th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
I think we’re ready for a black president (or female president for that matter), but Obama doesn’t have the experience necessary.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:26 am
The USA NEED a change and urgently. and to those that moan about Obama’s lack of experience, what experience did G.W. Bush have when he entered the White House….surely Obama cannot fare worse then Bush.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:27 am
For all of you that are basing your opinions based on the speeches he gives/gave, keep in mind, kiddies, that he doesn’t write his speeches. They are written for him, as it is with most president/presidential candidates. Black or white, male or female.
August 31st, 2008 at 5:06 am
Have you noticed. Obama isn’t running as the first black president. I have yet hear him bring that up as a factor. He truely does rise above the issue of race and simply runs as a man with good ideas. I think people of all skin color can appreciate that. He attends a Christian church of black heritage, but he doesn’t seem to use that heritage for political gain in any way. How interesting is that?
I guess he saw that it didn’t work for Jackson or Sharpton and that he better run as a man with ideas that is black and not a black man that has ideas.
August 31st, 2008 at 5:55 am
The generational gap is the problem, in my eyes. People under 25, that is to say, the folks in my generation, have the utmost faith in Obama. However, I know a very hefty amount of middle-class and upper-middle-class white men of the previous generation (35ish or more) who are silently (sometimes) doubting Obama simply because of his race. They are, of course, extremely uncomfortable talking about this, and they insist that it’s because “he speaks like a liberal advertisement” or something like that. As if rhetoric is a new tool in politics.
This is a man who, because of his race, understands that problems and solutions are both sides of the same coin. This is an intelligent, genuine person who believes that America’s government made many huge mistakes in the past eight years. This is a president who has faith in science and technology, and doesn’t believe in quasireligious, extremist mumbojumbo. This is a man who believes in freedom. YES, America is ready for Obama. In fact, “ready” is the wrong word. Obama is necessary for this nation.
August 31st, 2008 at 6:38 am
new york, (222),
I’m a middle-class, white male roughly three times the age of your 20-plus-something generation. I am sure the choice of US president will affect the world we all live in critically.
So I wish the hell I could vote for Obama, if even what you have written was all I knew. But I can’t. I’m not American. My future, our future, is in your hands. Please, please get it right.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:15 am
#220. Lex
For all of you that are basing your opinions based on the speeches he gives/gave, keep in mind, kiddies, that he doesn’t write his speeches. They are written for him, as it is with most president/presidential candidates.
****
Oh, Lexie, how wrong can you be?
Both Barak and Michell Obama write their own speeches.
McCain has his speeches written for him, and can’t even read them!
Before you make sweeping statements about someone, try doing some homework, instead of making assumptions.
Assumptions are the fall-back position of those who have no actual knowledge.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:47 am
segue,
Ass-umptions? Fall-back? I like it! Spike Milligan 2.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:01 am
To return to serious mode. Inevitably I must override those here (US voters or not) who sincerely do not or cannot accept my (non-US) concern over potentially disastrous climate-change and its origins.
However, as a white Caucasian male of exactly the same age as McCain, I believe it is critical and imperative that the next US leader must grasp the nettle of rapid changes to meet the crisis. Of the two, I believe that only Obama is likely to have the radical mindset and vigour to meet the challenge. His colour and origins are irrelevant to the issue. It is global and he is a citizen of the world. Whether he can overcome the massive inertia and resistance involved is another question.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:23 am
I don’t care if the potus is white, black, purple, etc. as long he does a good job.
August 31st, 2008 at 10:27 am
Anon 225, I chose my words *very* carefully.
And to all of you twenty-something’s who think that only the younger generation is ready for a black President; Which generation do you think marched with Dr. Martin L. King jr. to achieve civil rights for blacks? Which generation took buses down south to sign blacks up to vote, and took the beatings and arrests (and worse) for their trouble? Which generation made sure the little black children, who were the first to integrate the white schools, made it safely there and back home? Which generation sat at the “blacks only” lunch counters, until they were served, or dragged away by the local Sheriff?
It was the generation of your parents, your grandparents. It was a generation of dreamers and doers; a generation who believed they could move mountains, and did.
We’re still here, we still dream, we still believe, we still do, and we still will move mountains.
August 31st, 2008 at 10:32 am
He will get assassinated.
End of.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:07 am
# 196
We all live in the same country, Whether the backrounds differ or not,we still can have the same problems.
)
I don’t look to Obama as a savior,I look to him as a good candidate for presidency,a person who might,just might change something,make the U.S better,or maybe not,how much can he mess up in four years?( I realize im probably going to regret this as some form of irony in the near future
August 31st, 2008 at 11:13 am
“How prominent is racism in the US?” Very prominent. But not necessarily against minorities.
We have black TV stations, black magazines, black organizations, and black legislation. While I agree that in certain parts of the country racism is rampant, large cities are very diverse and racism is considerably a non-issue.
In my subdivision on my street we have families who are white, black, hispanic, hindu, greek, muslim, chinese, and vietnamese. Off the top of my head. It’s really a non-issue. America is much more diverse than 30 years ago.
Many families have a white and black parent. White teenagers date black teenagers. For the most part it’s become irrelevant in my area.
Hispanics are growing at such a large rate they will be the majority in a few generations.
However, I think it’s unfortunate that many blacks still fall back on race and slavery instead of acknowledging personal responsibility. Life and progress are about ambition and determination; scholarships are abundant, opportunity is everywhere. You just have to work toward it.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:20 am
Jfrater: I think you made a mistake the topic should be “Is the US ready for an AFRICAN AMERICAN president?” because you might hurt people’s feelings if you write BLACK even if he is indeed black.
I think the US is not ready because there is still a division of blacks and white. In an article in Newsweek it basically said that if you didn’t vote for NObama you were a racist.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:26 am
yes
August 31st, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Obama is the only hope for America.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Yes the US is ready for a black president but i do not feel that Barack Obama is the man for the job come November. For me John McCain is the man, he has more knowledge for the position and deserves it more. Politically McCain is the better man and if the US feel that they want to put someone in just for the color of their skin then at least get someone who is competent.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:16 pm
As an African-American, I will be voting for Barack Obama, because of not only the brilliancy of his campaign and how he has been able to lift himself up from attacks from Hilary, Democrates, Republicans, McCain, and Bush, but also in regard to the fact this country no longer needs incompetent leaders such as Bush in office.
I liked McCain for a small amount of time, before he started to become wishy washy in his criticism and allow ridiculous campaign smears to be aired on television and then say the presidential race should have some humor.
He is pathetic now, and I’d rather have our nation rise or sink in the hands of someone new than another old, Republican white man who cares nothing for the plight of those under him.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:16 pm
segue, (228),
That’s why you got the Milligan award! Sorry to have pointed up thge obvious by crude analysis. I didn’t want to risk its subtlety causing it not to be fully appreciated.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:15 pm
# 236
You know who was another republican white man, abraham lincoln, thanks for grouping every “white male republican” together and showing race is still a factor.
August 31st, 2008 at 2:52 pm
#237. Anon
segue, (228),
That’s why you got the Milligan award! Sorry to have pointed up the obvious by crude analysis. I didn’t want to risk its subtlety causing it not to be fully appreciated.
****
Sometimes subtlety is a curse, but it’s one I’ll just have to live with.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:01 pm
segue,
But a sublime curse.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:09 pm
I hope so, but I think a lot of Americans might say they are but vote differently.
I think he’s got a fight on his hands because of his color, he’d be a dead cert otherwise which is pretty sad.
Time will tell.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:45 pm
#238
I don’t consider Lincoln better than the next. Freeing the slaves wasn’t done in opposition to the atrocities of slavery, it was done as a political ploy and war strategy.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:47 pm
I’ll also add race is a factor, though it shouldn’t be. I highly doubt we will ever see a black republican candidate vying for president…ever…
August 31st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
#242
I agree freeing the slaves was political but lincoln is great for having the resolve to bring a divided nation back together even though it was unpopular in the north.
#243
Colin powell became chairman of the joint chiefs and secretary of state as a black republican, why can’t we have a black republican president, somebody always has to be first
August 31st, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Actually, here is exactly where McCain showed his true ineptitude.
Colin Powell would have been the best choice for Vice-President (actually, he would have been the best Republican choice for President), he is intelligent, experienced, and centered. Instead, McCain chose an inexperienced, far to the right-wing running mate, solely because:
A – she was a woman
and
B – held views even more extreme than his own.
This should come back to bite McCain in the butt, still, politics is a weird animal. Just when you think you have it figured out, it turns around and does exactly the opposite.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:41 pm
hopefully this gets read.
The saddest part about this entire election is that race keeps getting brought up. and even sadder is the shear number of people that are going to rush to the polls just to vote for this man because hes black. they have no idea what he stands for besides “change”(what does that even mean? could he be anymore vague?) Its absolutely embarrassing to walk through the grocery store and see the 20 somethings with the Obama shirts on that say nothing other than “change” and they have no fucking clue what this mans values are or what he stands for. NO CLUE.
Hopefully these brats actually do a little homework and learn about both candidates before they go sprinting to the polls to vote for someone that flip flops more than a pair of fucking sandals.
To be honest i really dont care who these people vote for as long as they educate themselves first as to what each of the candidates stands for.
And as for the people that will say this is all about me being a republican. Fine. We all have an agenda. But before you spew the nonsense from your mouth that you call an opinion. Read up on the inexperienced candidate youre about to cast your vote for and the fact that his running mate probably would choose the other guy if it came down to leadership and experience
August 31st, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Wow, badlist, I’ve never read a comment from you that included complete sentences before.
I think you made a good point.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Bucslim-
Jefferson and Lincoln were America’s prophets. Roosevelt and Washington – eh… so so.
Barack Obama, if elected, will do as much as or more than Lincoln or Jefferson, but probably as much. McCain is a shithead^76 and would ultimately destroy this country. So, in comparison to all of the twentieth and twenty-first century candidates for president, yes Obama is almost the best candidate ever. The others include Kennedy, Jefferson, Lincoln, maybe George Washington, and a fraction of Roosevelt.
P.S. I understand your Virgin Mary reference, but I might as well tell you that she never existed.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Is the US ready for a black president? Yes.
Does that mean we are obligated to vote for an unexperienced radical with a racist mentor who started his political campaign in the home of an unrepentant terrorist? No.
Don’t confuse rejecting Obama with rejecting the idea of a black president. I’ll vote for a black president some day… just not this one.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Yes. I’ve taken a good look at both Obama and McCain and clearly without a shadow of a doubt Obama’s a thousand times better to lead America. He is above race I think, and very much determined to be the next president. The question is: is America ready for a muslim president?
August 31st, 2008 at 9:35 pm
badlist,
“To be honest i really dont care who these people vote for as long as they educate themselves first as to what each of the candidates stands for.”
Never mind the 20 somethings. Never mind the party preference. ¿Pass an exam on knowledge of the issues and the candidates before you’re allowed to vote? Wow, That’d really thin them out.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Xay, I know it’s fashionable these days to downplay Lincoln’s involvement in the anti slave movement but did you know his parents were anti-slavery, and young Abe also carried these views?
He also said “I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. That sounds to me like a little more than a political ploy and war strategy.
How about giving just a little bit more credit where credit is due.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Anon and badlist,
Yeah, but you’d be surprised at which party would be thinned out the most…
Just sad seeing a gross assumption like that being made, that a “Change” t-shirt, support of Obama, and being between the ages of 18 and 30 makes you a retard. Same could be said to those who listen to Rush Limbaugh and vote solely on his “pearls of wisdom”. (Sorry, Rushfan, I went there, but I will say the same about those who watch “The Daily Show” as their only source of political information.)
August 31st, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Cedestra, (253),
“Anon and badlist,
Yeah, but you’d be surprised at which party would be thinned out the most…”
Ah, but would I?
September 1st, 2008 at 2:00 am
I most certainly hope so,coz I’m 1000000% behind him:)
September 1st, 2008 at 2:44 am
segue #224:
Where did you get the idea that Obama writes his own speeches? Jon Favreau has received a lot of press coverage recently. Obama collaborates with him & 2 others:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/fashion/20speechwriter.html
http://www.newsweek.com/id/84756/output/print
September 1st, 2008 at 3:06 am
Coming in late, but the choice of Palin is a bad mistake if McCain is hoping she will pick up the disaffected Clinton vote.
Apart from being a woman Palin appears to share absolutely nothing with Hillary so why would a Clinton supporter vote for her over Obama?
Is the USA ready for a Black President? I’m not convinced but I view the fact that one of the two main parties did not feature a white male as a serious candidate for nomination to be a big step forward.
Cheers
Lee
September 1st, 2008 at 5:39 am
Yes, I believe they are ready. So he is Obama. And the rest of the world will sigh a sense of relief.
Hopefully, this is the last we see of Dubya!
September 1st, 2008 at 7:12 am
yes the United States is ready for a black president it just isn’t Obama.
September 1st, 2008 at 7:44 am
@Yun 249, I was going to write something and then read your response. Far more succinct that I would have been and right on target. Thanks.
September 1st, 2008 at 10:05 am
I don’t think it matters what color his skin is.
I’m 13, and don’t really know anything about politics, but he seems like a pretty cool guy if I might say so myelf. Theres a really cool song about him by the hush sound. Its called We Believe [in barack obama] its really funny. You should hear it.
September 1st, 2008 at 11:11 am
I see no point in discussing color of skin. It in all honesty dosent make us any different in side. We just look different. that being said, i am a US citizen, and i will be voteing for Obama. Not because he is a black man, but because i agree with his views, and i believe that this country needs to change, and MAKE PEACE WITH THE WORLD!!! No more war, no more sending my family and friends over seas to protect the oil that G.W. Bush is so tied into. You realize that his family is very very very close with the afgani (sp?) leader, and very tied in with all the oil companies in the country. John McCain is wanting to continue the war for OVER 100 YEARS!! Yeah he said it in a speech or two. I will not stay in this country is McCain is voted in. I wont do another 4 years of the same crap, i wont watch my country go down the drain. I have done my part for the change, i donate to Obama, i go to his rallies in my town, and i will vote for him. IF McCAIN WINS I WILL MOVE TO CANADA, maybe mexico sence i dont like the snow…
September 1st, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Why the heck would you vote for the current Elephant ticket? Giving Sarah the position of being the second highest official of the world’s strongest nation? I mean, what the f*ck! She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid.( I guess his brains is starting to experience the toll of gettin’ old.) Therefore, this just reflects what kindov choices he’s gonna make when he becomes the President. Utter stupidity. ( Plus his pro-war agendas.)
Sadly, the maxims of the Elephants nowadays strongly deviates and differs from what the Elephants were back then (Lincoln times)
The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.
Goin’ back to the real issue,
I believe America is ready ferit.
To be more specific,
America is ready for Barack Obama.
Dems rule!
September 1st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
you guys are so lucky to have somebody like Obama to run for president. out here in Canada we get to choose between
a) a bush wannabe (Harper)
b) somebody who can’t set priorities (Dion)
c) Quebec separatist (Duceppe)
d) a nutcase (Layton)
September 1st, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Rinneganleks said “Why the heck would you vote for the current Elephant ticket? Giving Sarah the position of being the second highest official of the world’s strongest nation? I mean, what the f*ck! She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid.( I guess his brains is starting to experience the toll of gettin’ old.) Therefore, this just reflects what kindov choices he’s gonna make when he becomes the President. Utter stupidity. ( Plus his pro-war agendas.)
Sadly, the maxims of the Elephants nowadays strongly deviates and differs from what the Elephants were back then (Lincoln times)
The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.
Goin’ back to the real issue,
I believe America is ready ferit.
To be more specific,
America is ready for Barack Obama.
Dems rule!”
Rinneganlek, I know you are on the fringe just like there are plenty of ’elephants” on the fringe but you are really making an ass( No pun intended) out of yourself when you make such ignorant statements. Most of my friends identify themselves as democrats “and you my friend are not a democrat”. I happen to be a republican but without even asking “all” of my friends would not agree with what you just posted
September 1st, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Okay, is this actually something to debate over?
Americans are NOT ready for a black president. We are all a bunch of racist, prejudiced BASTARDS who can’t even wrap our minds around the concept of gay marriage, and you’re saying that we’re going to elect a black president?
Fat chance!
Don’t get me wrong, I would love for Obama to win, but I think that our last series of elections have proven that the American public, as a whole, is fucking stupid. After electing Bush for a SECOND term, I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone moved to amend the constitution so that we could elect him for a third.
Old white people are what American’s feel safe with. Old white people who aren’t a fan of the gays. We should all just be happy that a black man made it on the ballot. That’s step one, folks. It’s going to be many, many years before we’re ready to actually have a black president, or a president of any other non-white race.
That is, assuming the American empire hasn’t already fallen by then…
September 1st, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Also, as I’m reading some of these, I’m seeing a lot of posts to the effect of “ohmegawd, why are we even discussing skin color, that’s not even an issue, you guys are racists”…
Have any of you been to the southern United States?
Living in a southern Missouri redneck town teaches you that actually, yeah, it matters a hell of a lot. I really wish it didn’t, but there are a bunch of redneck republicans that aren’t even really sure what the term “republican” means (they just know that “they ain’t electing no colored folk”) who I assure you will vote purely, PURELY based on the color of the candidate’s skin.
So yeah, hate to say it, but a majority of southern US is going to make the color of his skin extremely relevant.
September 1st, 2008 at 9:39 pm
@261
You’re my favorite.
The Hush Sound = awesome. =]
September 1st, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Liam #248
“Barack Obama, if elected, will do as much as or more than Lincoln or Jefferson, but probably as much.”
Explain, in detail, how Obama will do as much or more than Lincoln or Jefferson.
What is your basis for this statement? His extensive (not) voting record in the Senate? His foreign policy? How many budgets has he balanced? What critical problems facing the nation has he solved or has a solution to? How is he going to stimulate the economy? How is he going to solve our energy problems? What in his past has convinced you, other than his speeches, that he’s ready to be president?
And before you answer, he’ll answer my questions for you, Change we can believe in. That’s it. So I seriously doubt you can have anything to say about Obama’s potential activities being on the same level as freeing the slaves and leading us during a civil war (Lincoln) or writing the Declaration of Independence and being a major contributor to the Constitution (Jefferson) Your statement makes little sense in light of those monumental contributions by those great men.
You have no sense of the history of this country, and thus have no basis for making the ridiculous claim that he is “almost the best candidate ever.”
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:14 am
Panic! – I guess those redneck Republicans were duped into thinking JC Watts wasn’t ‘colored’ in your terms, when he got elected from that redneck state of Oklahoma. And I guess that Colin Powell bleached his skin when he was Secretary of State. And you’ll probably come back to tell me that Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas were Uncle Toms who betrayed their race when they had the audacity to be conservative, not to mention Thomas Sowell and Alan Keyes.
Your post 267 is one of the most ignorant, stupid and racist posts I’ve seen on this website. Just because you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town doesn’t mean the rest of us behave that way. According to you, we’re supposed to vote for Obama BECAUSE he’s black. Sorry, Jesse Jackson already tried that.
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:45 am
Black, Asian, White, Native American… who cares. Do not raise taxes, lower government spending and keep this country from becoming a social state, that is all I care about.
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:52 am
Obama isn’t black, though. He’s a white man who’s traded on what little black blood he has as well as his rich white family. Why will people insist that this man is black? If the one drop rule applies, then I suppose everybody is just about everything in this country. Just another rich person running for office.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:10 am
Rinneganleks #263
“She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid”
“The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.”
Nice – another ignorant Democrat Liberal shows his/her ass on this website. How exactly is someone’s daughter getting pregnant have anything whatsoever to do with national politics? Now I’m supposed to vote for Obama because McCain’s running mate’s kid is pregnant? Yeah, that’ll solve everything! And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?
Complete and utter horsehit.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:11 am
Uh. . .complete and utter h-o-r-s-e-s-h-i-t.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:51 am
So much of this cascade of often virulent discord depresses me. I think I’ll just slink off and wait to see what happens when the time comes. Without over-much hope.
September 2nd, 2008 at 10:58 am
For one, it is generally acceptable for a black person to become president. There will always be racists against every race and haters against every religion, belief system, and political view. So yes, the fact that Obama is even the democratic nominee shows this. At this point it will be based on the campaign.
My biggest concern with Obama is that we know nothing about him except he’s good at getting up in front of people and talking. Bucslim made some great points in #269.
I’m a conservative guy and I have some liberal friends and we have healthy discussions and aren’t “kool-aid drinkers” who buy everything from one political party. Some of you guys are here are completely psychotic. Thankyou Bucslim for bringing some actual logic to the discussion.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:28 am
bucslim:
Oh for the love of Christ.
“His extensive (not) voting record in the Senate?”
FALSEHOOD. This nonsense got started with Obama’s voting record in the *Illinois STATE senate.* He did not vote in a number of instances there, which is common… he voted “present”–a practice in Illinois which expresses disapproval for a bill without actually voting against it. It was not the majority of his votes, and in fact he sponsored a large number of bills on all manner of legislation. His record in the US senate does NOT reflect a pattern of “not voting” at all… he has in fact voted regularly and again has sponsored a substantial amount of legislation.
This is just pure right wing smear tactics, this lie that Obama “doesn’t vote.” It’s pure bullshit.
“His foreign policy?”
And let’s have a discussion of Bush’s and McCain’s foreign policy. More blunders and illegal aggressions, that’s about what it amounts to.
“How many budgets has he balanced?”
How many have the Republicans balanced over the last 8 years?
But let’s just point out that Obama has run a campaign with enormous funds at his disposal and he has kept it in the black the entire time while his opponents on BOTH sides of the aisle ran theirs into the red. So there’s a budget he’s kept very well. Good enough for you?
“What critical problems facing the nation has he solved or has a solution to?”
This is such bullshit I can’t believe it. I know you were responding to the over-the-top comments of the original poster, but please… A) what candidate has EVER solved problems facing the nation, other than a sitting president? B) name ONE problem McCain has authoritatively addressed. And C) Obama HAS laid out his solutions to many of the problems currently facing us. He’s done this on his website, spoken of them in public, and just laid out much of his plan in his recent acceptance speech at the Democratic convention.
So enough with the crap.
“How is he going to stimulate the economy? How is he going to solve our energy problems?”
Again, see above. It isn’t Obama’s fault (or mine) if you just DON’T LISTEN or have your right-wing head too far up your ass to HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.
I like you, man, but I can’t stand it when people like you just repeat this blather like it’s some Pure Truth. It’s the furthest thing from it.
“What in his past has convinced you, other than his speeches, that he’s ready to be president?”
Pray tell, bucslim, what EVER convinces you that a man is ready to be president? Did you think Bush was “ready” in 2000? Why, because he came from that family, and because he was governor of Texas? Big fucking deal.
What makes a man “ready” to be president? Can you answer that? I’ll be damned if I can. MOST presidents grow up in the job. But yes, Obama is “ready” to accept the challenge because he’s clearly A) gotten things done on the local and national level, in the senate as well as back home, (and you want particulars, there’s whole websites out there devoted to his record. Again, it isn’t my fault if you can’t take the time to GO AND LOOK). B) he has the judgement, character, and temperament that fits a statesman. C) he’s an intelligent and thoughtful man, obviously, with some sort of vision. And this vision is what we need to get back on track in this country. You don’t like it, too bad… as I’ve said before, it’s time to drop the 80s/90s political crap and join the rest of us in the 21st century. “Obama too liberal” my ass. That old argument doesn’t cut it anymore. Stop living in the polarized politics of our parents and grandparents, bucslim. We’re in our 40s now, it’s time to grow up and realize that the world has changed.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:36 am
Sedulous:
Sorry, but I really do get sick of this nonsense:
“My biggest concern with Obama is that we know nothing about him except he’s good at getting up in front of people and talking.”
Then what you’ve just done is prove that you have your head in the sand and can’t take the time to investigate and LISTEN. Your statement is that of a piss-poor citizen who won’t take the time to open up a political journal or even a goddamn Newsweek magazine or a decent newspaper, or just cruise onto Obama’s own web site to FIND OUT what he stands for and who he is.
Note the “we” in your statement. Well don’t include ME or others who support Obama in your collective ignorance, Sedulous. I support Obama because I looked into the man’s record and found out who he was long ago, and I found there what I thought this country needed after the worst 8 years in my adult memory, if not my ENTIRE memory. I don’t “worship” Obama nor am I some “Kool Aid” drinker who believes what a particular party has doled out to him. I have a brain and use advanced thought processes to make my decisions. But you, by parroting this bullshit right-wing nonsense that we don’t “know” Obama, have simply showed yourself up to be in neglect of your thought processes and closed off to reality.
The only question I have is, is it just polarized and cemented political dogma making you this way, or is it the cynicism too many of us have sunk to, in general? Maybe you can answer that.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:54 am
bucslim:
“And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?”
Let’s begin with decades of conservative votes against *every manner* of legislation meant to address entrenched racist policies at the governmental as well as private levels in this country. And then let’s talk about repeated attacks by the right wing on Affirmative Action; attacks not only meant to correct its excesses but clearly meant to undermine it completely and begin the process of rolling it back entirely. Let’s talk about a party that has essentially written off the African-American community at every turn, who instead of choosing to listen to that community to hear its grievances, chooses to ignore them and occasionally (at most) lecture said community on its sense of “entitlement” as though the black community should just shut up and accept the fact that whatever’s wrong with it is its own fault. Meanwhile, we have nearly a quarter of the population of adult male blacks in prison, and a larger segment of the black population still lives in poverty than any other racial group. And what do Republicans have to say about this? Nothing. They just continue to pass more “tough on crime” legislation and continue to foster a political worldview that says if you have a problem, you need to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.
I think the fact that you asked that question, pal, indicates how out of touch you’ve become. C’mon. Join me in walking away from the conservative bullshit. *I* found out it was wrong and full of lies in the 1990s. It’s time for you to do the same, if you want to call yourself an informed and intelligent citizen.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Randall ~ I know that was for Bucslim, but I gotta ask…
Let me get this straight, being against affirmative action equals being pro-slavery?
And as for “instead of choosing to listen to that community to hear its grievances, chooses to ignore them and occasionally (at most) lecture said community on its sense of “entitlement” as though the black community should just shut up and accept the fact that whatever’s wrong with it is its own fault,” You might have us confused with Bill Cosby, a rather smart black man who doesn’t fall in line with your view of things as they are.
“Meanwhile, we have nearly a quarter of the population of adult male blacks in prison, and a larger segment of the black population still lives in poverty than any other racial group.” Are you seriously blaming anyone except the folks involved?
Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting people to be of assistance in their own success or failure. Of course there are outside forces that impact their lives that they can’t control, but you’re acting as if no strides have been made, as if every minority is still oppressed, as if all hope is lost, as if government could or should have all the answers and help every single person succeed. In this country you’re guaranteed the *right* to persue happiness, not have it handed to you. Look around, people get out of poverty every day, and they do it mostly on their own, they don’t need you, Randall, or Obama to do it for them.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
rushfan:
“Let me get this straight, being against affirmative action equals being pro-slavery?”
Ha ha, cute kid. Nice try. I was clear enough in what I said. Don’t try to paint me as some off-the-wall nut. The stuff will spray all over you and you can’t wash that shit out.
As I said, the opposition to affirmative action has consistently gone BEYOND merely addressing its excesses. And that, yes, is what equals a kind of racism. “Pro-slavery” was the original poster’s words, not mine. But they’ll do for the kind of subtle racism proferred by the right wing.
“Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie.”
HA HA HA! Wonderful! You haven’t a CLUE as to who you’re talking to, rushfan. I was a conservative probably BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. I had conservative credentials that you could only dream of, if you’d want to dream about such absurd things. Want a list? I’d be happy to provide.
“Stuck in the sixties” my ass. “Hippie” my ass. You’re a deluded youngster who has no clue to the reality of the world out there. Clearly you like to think you have said clue. But worshipping Rush Limbaugh isn’t a qualification for it, rushfan. And neither is mouthing the dogma of a failed party and a failed system and worldview, dear.
“…you’re acting as if no strides have been made, as if every minority is still oppressed, as if all hope is lost”
I AM? And where, pray tell, did I say ANY of this? (In fact I believe nothing of the kind).
YOU, in fact, are pretending that all is rosy or headed to rosey-ness. Nice delusion, and I wink at it. Keep it up. It’s the way to keep one’s head stuck in the ground. Things are always happier that way, if you pretend the world is always getting better just because some moron on the radio tells you so, rushfan.
“…as if government could or should have all the answers and help every single person succeed.”
Typical right-wing trick, re-inventing what I said to say something ENTIRELY different. In fact I said NOTHING OF THE KIND and do NOT believe this at all.
I was there, pulling bullshit debating tricks like that, again, BEFORE YOU WERE BORN rushfan. Nice try, but it doesn’t work on me.
LOOK AROUND YOURSELF, rushfan. Yup, some people get out of poverty on their own, sure thing, Tex. Many, however, are held down by ignorance, racism, and any number of other gamings of the system against them.
You forget or do not know that I come from a very different background from you. (at least, as I recall from what you’ve said about yourself on this site, in the past). I *know* from personal, first hand experience how the centers of power both economic and governmental work in this country—I’ve been there. You’re a deluded child if you think much of the system as it is is not gamed against the common, working class citizen.
NONE of this is about government “doing it for us” or “handing” happiness to us. I don’t believe that in the least. What I DO know and believe, however, is that there is a VASTLY unfair field out there that most people are forced to play on–and many of them, like you, don’t even know it or can’t even see it. You’ve bought into a bullshit distorted view of reality and there are people right now sitting somewhere laughing *heartily* at your fervent support for the way they want things to be and stay.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:01 pm
DUDE, you said it, don’t give me that cute, kid shit, old timer.
““And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?”
Let’s begin with decades of conservative votes against *every manner* of legislation meant to address entrenched racist policies at the governmental as well as private levels in this country. And then let’s talk about repeated attacks by the right wing on Affirmative Action.” You were more than comfortable flowing straight from slavery to affirmative action.
Also, I love how you brag about your time spent as a “conservative.” So what, Randall. You’re on the wrong side of history now and that’s all that matters. You’re smug and smart and I expect more from you. I fear your years in liberal academia have made you who you are. You are self-righteous and dismissive and happy to sit in your office and lecture us about the real world from your comfy chair about how we’re all responsible for poverty and oppression of minorities. And you call me and Bucslim out of touch.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
280. rushfan…Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie.
****
rushfan, just as a point of actual history here. Randall referred to himself as being in his 40’s. That would make him *far* too young to have been a hippie.
The hippie’s were born in the late 40’s to mid 50’s, no later, some earlier.
Randall loses by a decade.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
segue ~ Randall’s mind transcends time. He thinks like a hippie ergo he’s a hippie. He’s a lib who used to be conservative so he thinks he knows it all, that he can somehow represent both sides and therefore gain some credibility. I know how old he is, just as he knows how old I am. He’s regressing from the progress I *thought* we had made.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I see no point in discussing color of skin. It in all honesty dosent make us any different in side. We just look different. that being said, i am a US citizen, and i will be voteing for Obama. Not because he is a black man, but because i agree with his views, and i believe that this country needs to change, and MAKE PEACE WITH THE WORLD!!! No more war, no more sending my family and friends over seas to protect the oil that G.W. Bush is so tied into. You realize that his family is very very very close with the afgani (sp?) leader, and very tied in with all the oil companies in the country. John McCain is wanting to continue the war for OVER 100 YEARS!! Yeah he said it in a speech or two. I will not stay in this country is McCain is voted in. I wont do another 4 years of the same crap, i wont watch my country go down the drain. I have done my part for the change, i donate to Obama, i go to his rallies in my town, and i will vote for him. IF McCAIN WINS I WILL MOVE TO CANADA, maybe mexico sence i dont like the snow…
hahahaha..Democrats. Randall do you feel happy she’s on your side?
McCain 08
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:30 pm
p.s. His lengthy absense tells me he’s writing a lengthy tretise about how wrong I am and how right he is. My spidey senses tell me it will include quotes from my posts with eloquent responses as well as many asterisks for dramatic effect.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:32 pm
rushfan:
“Also, I love how you brag about your time spent as a “conservative.” So what, Randall.”
So what, honey? Been there, done that, that’s what “so what.” I know what I did, where I was, the things I was involved with, the people I was involved with, how close I was to the beating heart of the movement. I’m secure in those credentials more than you can ever know, ashamed of them as I know am.
“You’re on the wrong side of history now”
Always the people who truly ARE on the wrong side of history are the first to accuse others of being so.
You’ve mistakenly pegged me as some left-wing elitist. You haven’t the faintest clue how wrong you are. I’d love to educate you on it, but I’m highly doubtful you’d *actually* listen. I know the mindset you’re exhibiting far too well.
“You’re smug and smart”
Guilty.
“and I expect more from you. I fear your years in liberal academia have made you who you are.”
HA HA HA! Another wonderful bit of nonsense.
Time will tell which one of us is right, rushfan. If you have the self-awareness and honesty of mind to recognize it.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:33 pm
callie:
Huh? Who? “She” is on MY side? To whom are you referring?
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
rushfan:
by the way, I was hating hippies and railing against them, AGAIN, before you were born. I still hate hippies. Calling me one really burns my ass. You’ll be hearing from my attorney, therefore.
Disrespectful brat.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Randall ~ If you can’t even ackowledge what every person in American knows, that colleges and universities are overwhelmingly liberal, than you’ve said it all, right there.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:38 pm
HIPPIE!
*sticking out my tongue and running away*
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:38 pm
calm down Randall..that wasn’t a personal attack, you’re just the most vocal Obama suppoerter on this site. I was referring to the poster who wrote what I quoted being on your side (surely you didn’t think I would write something that disjointed.) It was comment 262.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:40 pm
thats true Rush..MAN it’s hard to be a republican in college. did anyone see that Scrubs episode where they debate Iraq and Elliot stands up and proudly states she’s a conservative? That’s where I am now, but I did stay mum about in in school. I regret that.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
callie: go “independent”…that way no one will expect much from you.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Callie ~ You had me! I thought that was your post and dude I was disappointed. Use quotation marks, dude.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:46 pm
we need a “quote this” button. Get on that jamie
September 2nd, 2008 at 2:26 pm
If Obama loses its not because he’s black but because he’s a socialist. Not that there’s anything wrong with that (Scandanavia has a pretty good version of it). But Americans like spending money and are not very open to a big government trying to dictate how they should be spending. Someone has to pay for all the goodies Obama is promising (in addition to Bush’s donations to the rich over the past 8 years), be it now or in the future. I’m not convinced Obama’s current ideas will raise enough money to even come close. And most Americans would agree with me that higher taxes suck.
But then again, maybe there is actually real CHANGE in the wind.
September 2nd, 2008 at 2:30 pm
That’s not change, I farted. Trust me, you’ll know real change when you hear it. It will include education reform, dealing with social security, reducing government spending, dealing with America’s prison problem intelligently, tort reform, none of these things are even being addressed. No one’s even asking.
September 2nd, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I agree with everything rushfan said, in fact, I think I’m falling in love with her, and disagree with most of what Randall said, so there.
Randall – dude – bro – homie, listen, you’re right I was bringing down the douchenozzle from before, not comparing the two candidates. You’ve got to agree that I was right on and those peeps were out of line. Can’t you see what I’m saying? For God sake that dude was putting him up there with Lincoln and Jefferson!!! Those two idiots couldn’t be more full of shit than the outhouse pit in the park after Memorial Day!
Now I gotta run, apparently my head is stuck up my right wing ass.
As for rushfan – meet me behind the bleachers after school.
September 2nd, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Unless you’re a dude.
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:21 pm
rushfan, I was trying to be sarcastic by saying that there was “real CHANGE in the wind” but I guess I did a poor job. I do agree with you. All the important reforms you mentioned are pressing. But they are also all political hot potatoes and nothing will move forward until things break down and there’s no alternative but to have tangible reform. Obama won’t change much, especially with the lousy partisan job Congress will likely continue to do even if he is elected. But I do think he is the lesser of two evils coz at least he publicly recognizes the demage Bush’s policies have done over the past 8 years. If any reforms are actually going to happen, it’s more likely going to be under Obama than McCain. Both candidates will do a similarly fine job (better than Bush). But Obama will bring with him new faces with fresh ideas while McCain will likely retain many of Bush’s people (or God, no more Cheney please). Plus I’m very uncomfortable with having an unbalanced supreme court for the next 30 years, which is a distinct possibility if McCain wins.
September 2nd, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Bucslim-“Panic! – I guess those redneck Republicans were duped into thinking JC Watts wasn’t ‘colored’ in your terms, when he got elected from that redneck state of Oklahoma. And I guess that Colin Powell bleached his skin when he was Secretary of State. And you’ll probably come back to tell me that Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas were Uncle Toms who betrayed their race when they had the audacity to be conservative, not to mention Thomas Sowell and Alan Keyes.
Your post 267 is one of the most ignorant, stupid and racist posts I’ve seen on this website. Just because you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town doesn’t mean the rest of us behave that way. According to you, we’re supposed to vote for Obama BECAUSE he’s black. Sorry, Jesse Jackson already tried that.”
But a black president running is different than Colin Powell, or Condi Rice running for something. The presidential running takes up all of the nighttime television for several months, and steals all publicity from everything else prior to and post the election. The whole country can see it, and I hate to tell you, but there are way WAY more racist people than you realize. America as a whole isn’t ready. I mean white men are still afraid to call an ‘African American’ ‘Black’ in a public setting. And how would anything in congress really work if half the members lean toward whatever the president says, because he is black, and don’t want to be known as the ‘African dream stomper’ and the other half leans away from him because they are trying too hard to not agree with everything he says, via his blackness, or are actually racist.
And what? Panic wasn’t saying vote for him because he was black, he was just trying to shed some light on the concept with what he knows from his own town. My town is very much like his. And like we said, America as a whole isn’t ready. You are right, just because we have some rednecks in our town who are racist, doesn’t mean the rest of America is….. but America(all of America) isn’t ready. He wasn’t being racist…
but you where. “you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town”
not all of us are inbred white trash here in the south, and most of us can actually count above twenty, without using our toes…… ya racist.
-Kase
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
mvenges, no, I got you, I thought it was pretty clear that I was being sarcastic.
I thought you made some descent points, except for the obligatory Bush-bashing. I’m not all up in the guy’s junk, but he’s not the anti-christ any more than Obama is the Messiah or McCain is my grandpa John, well McCain may be…anyhoo…yeah, I’m a chick, bucslim, you know that. 
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
I’m tempted to slink back to offer this food for thought to those who are tepidly pro-Obama or tepidly anti. (The rest of you are too far over one side or the other to make any difference.)
It intrigues me how similar in many respects is Obama to Tony Blair during the latter’s run-up to the British premiership. The same doubts were thrown around about his relative youth and lack of experience, about him being high on charisma and vitality, and little else. It might also be said he won because voters were disillusioned with a tired and ineffectual right-wing opposition despite its greater experience in office.
In the end his popularity waned, which tends to be par for the course (Churchill, Thatcher). But he had the sense to quit while more or less still on top, and is still active and respected in various spheres in a way that somewhat parallels Jimmy Carter.
What intrigued me was the often ungrudging support and admiration he won over the course of his terms from so many of our less than died-in-the-wool right-wing fellow British friends, not to mention the voting public at large. These friends, like myself (I am essentially of a mildly leftish liberal turn) would never, ever have voted for a traditional dogmatic Socialist regime. Never in a month of Sundays.
I don’t want to push this comparison. There is a world of difference of course between transatlantic politics and publics, the roles of PM and president, and that of the two nations in the modern world. It’s really just offering a hint, perhaps even a hope, than things underway may turn out a lot more positive than election time neurosis tends to suggest. (Assuming Obama is elected.) Also that *playing safe* isn’t necessarily the best option.
Randall,
If you think people will understand your trajectory from conservative to your present liberal stance and accept it as personal and sincere, I fear you may be banging your head against a wall. My feeling is it needs someone who is old and creaking and has undergone the same process themselves, as I have. At least nobody could accuse me (as they do you) of institutional influence. I come from a comfortable middle-class background and have been self-employed or freelance all my life as well as a rabid individualist. These attributes are considered to be the traditional hallmark of a born right-winger! People only understand the standard evolution: start out a raving left wing student looney and reach the grave as a boring right wing fart. That’s what everyone expects and accepts without question. I began my political life with a strong belief that ruling-class conservative paternalism was best for the country. Mixed with that was an undying hatred (to this day) for dogmatic (rather than intelligent and minimal) left-wing state intervention. Ultimately I came to consider that both extremes can do good in their way, but both are tied in to powerful interests which control them: the tail wagging the dog syndrome. Wherever you move in politics you tend to win some and lose some, but it seems to me the liberal centre is point where least is lost. With his pragmatism (a British socialist leader working with Dubya???), probably Blair is the elected British leader who has managed to come closest to delivering those goods in practical terms during my lifetime.
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:32 pm
My husband is a retired Air Force Major. He served four years in the Viet Nam conflict (and other countries we weren’t supposed to be in). He’d get finished with one rotation and immediately sign-up for another.
He has every medal the Air Force awards, mostly several of them (I don’t even remember how many Distinguished Flying Crosses he has!).
While he, like I, admire McCain’s service, he will not vote for him.
His reasons are many and extremely intelligent, but can be boiled down to this: McCain’s judgment is flawed and flighty, it changes with the wind and whether or not McCain remembers what he said last time.
I can go with that.
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Well first off I will be voting for Obama.
For the sole basis that I believe as a libertarian Obama will work for more “rights” and to preserve the “rights” of the populous
I feel McCain would trample on more rights.
I also feel Obama will better the economy.
As far a skin color goes I’d vote for a Purple President over McCain / another Bush.
That’s it Peanut for President!!! [Jeff Dun-Ham reference]
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
For the sole basis that I believe as a libertarian Obama will work for more “rights” and to preserve the “rights” of the populous
edit. before I get disputed.
I am a libertarian. Therefore from MY libertarian views… Obama is more rights friendly.
I know Obama is a liberal. As my highly conservative friend would point out (who is voting for McCain based on that he is A. a Conservative and B. Devote Christian. Which is true for both my friend and McCain them.
September 2nd, 2008 at 8:04 pm
We already had a peanut for president. Jimma Carter. (sorry, I realize you were making some sort of vantrilaquist joke or something)
And why do you keep saying libertarian Obama? Dude, Obama wouldn’t even call himself a libertarian, he’s a flaming big-government anti-suv turn down your a/c and cling to your guns and god friend of Bill Ayers Harvard-educated Liberal!
September 2nd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
304. Anon…I come from a comfortable middle-class background and have been self-employed or freelance all my life as well as a rabid individualist…
****
Good God! I knew we had more in common than we’d discovered so far!
I’ll fill you in, but this is getting to be a bit like “separated at birth”.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Brutally- McCain ain’t conservative, just ask Rush Limbaugh, Anne Coulter and any other conservative.
Kase – now I’m a racist for calling someone in-bred white trash? I thought I was a racist because I’m not voting for Obama. Funny how no one called me a racist when I didn’t vote for Jesse Jackson.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:40 pm
My 304,
dyed-in-the-wool, not “died-in-the-wool”, before tempyra kicks me in the spelling-bee again!
It does though remind me of the famous response by MP Dennis Healey to criticism by opponent Geoffrey Howe in the British House of Commons, which Healey said was “like being savaged by a dead sheep”.
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Sorry, Tempyra,
Of course, you’re an Upper Case person like me. (I’ve got to watch it with you, lest you ever look in here.)
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Oh I have eyes everywhere
I have been reading this topic, although I don’t really have a view on it.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:14 am
As a non-American, I’ve kept out of this so far, but here goes.
1) If this question even needs to be asked, then the answer is probably “no”.
2) Is it written somewhere in US history that “all men are created equal”? If so, then what’s the problem? If not, then why proclaim it?
September 3rd, 2008 at 3:07 am
Like others have said, this question doesn’t need to be asked. Obama is who America needs now in this desperate time, and he’s who I’ll be voting for. He’s the only one in a position to bring this country out of the depths that Bush has driven us into.
And Jill W.- post #33 (I know, way back) you first say that race shouldn’t have anything to do with it, then the rest of your post is all about Obama’s race. Care to explain?
September 3rd, 2008 at 3:12 am
I’ve also got one question to ask fellow Americans here- has anyone considered voting McCain solely because you’ve completely given up on this country and are ready to see it die? (I have.)
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:25 am
jasontimmer ~ How is he “the only one in a position to bring this country out of the depths that Bush has driven us into. ” Exactly what position do you think he’s in? He’s just another politician, people, he’s not going to be the Savior-in-Chief or the Messiah of the United States of America. If he does *shudder* get elected, just watch how fast he drops the kook fringe left-wing base and runs toward the center. He’s already trying to do it now, so he’ll appeal to moderate voters. Just look at your precious Democratic congress. What exactly has Pelosi accomplished? Hmmm, can’t think of anything. Lefties are all talk and no action. After all, if they solved the problems they perpetually run on fixing, what would they run on?
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:35 am
I can’t keep up on these things with my current schedule… now I have meetings all morning long and won’t be free until after lunch. *sigh.*
What can I say? rushfan, stop hating liberals, they just want a sane and civilized country to live in, and they don’t agree with you on what IS sane and civilized. YOU want a sane and civilized country, yourself, no doubt, but I got news for you–ever since I was a little boy, I’ve seen this place grow for the most part LESS sane. Civilized I can’t speak to, it’s harder to gauge that.
And actually I’m sick of these old definitions, liberal and conservative. They’re meaningless today. I look around and I don’t see the conservatives that I took to be conservatives when I was young—Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley and such. There’s no one like them, not even close, and I’m not talking in terms of gravity and character, but in terms of philosophy and ideas. The vast majority of people calling themselves “conservatives” today, in fact, would be detested by Goldwater, I’m sure.
And the same goes with “liberal.” The term that *I* grew up with certainly wouldn’t have described Bill Clinton, say, and doesn’t describe Barack Obama.
Left and Right have changed over the decades, but many people (rushfan, etc) are still clinging to the old definitions that just don’t work anymore.
Sadly I have no more time, have to go. The upside of this is, I have little doubt that come November we’ll have a President Obama. I certainly hope this comes to pass.
I was sitting in the backyard with my fourteen year old daughter recently, and I told her, “you know, you’re going to be seeing history soon… the first black man elected president.”
My neighbor Mike then said to her, “it’ll be history either way. Either you’ll see the first black man elected president, or you’ll see the end of your democracy.” (Because 8 years of Bush and corporate control of the media has already driven it to the brink)
A tad facetious, but not all that much.
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:57 am
Randall ~ Conservative and Liberal are common terms used in politics and it’s only Liberals who don’t like being called Liberals because your base is so insane. I’m proud to be called a conservative, mainly because I don’t feel I have to pass any litmus test to be such: I am not religious, I am not against gay marriage, I don’t fit the mold, and that’s okay. Liberals, on the other hand, are far less tolerant-just try to be a pro-life Democrat-there’s no room for you at the convention. The party of tolerance and “choice” is the one with the least room for deviation. No wonder you don’t want to be called a liberal. But you admit you’re a democrat, so if I refer to you as a democrat are you gonna cry about that too?
Have a great day at school. And tell your daughter I said “hi!” I bet we’d all have fun at a bbq by the lake. I’ll bring the Dos Equis.
September 3rd, 2008 at 6:41 am
So Randall – the end of your democracy. Really? McCain runs on the platform of ending our democracy. Is he going to set up a dictatorship? Appoint himself King? Czar? So he might be ‘voted’ in, then he’ll dismantle the election process?
The way I see it it’s the other way around. Liberals are always telling people what they can and can’t do. Businesses aren’t allowed to make money, particularly small buisnesses because they are taxed and regulated out of business. The only free speech is their brand of free speech. Rich people are the scum of society. My worth as a human being is viewed from the standpoint of how ‘green’ I am. Fairness is defined as taking money from hardworking people and giving it to people who don’t. And finally, the government is nothing more than an entitlement program.
That kind of over the top, the sky is falling crap plays right into what I’ve said all along. It’s that sort of smug, moral higher ground bullshit that Democrat Liberals have said from day one in this thread.
Not voting for Obama – you’re a racist.
Obama’s accomplishments will be greater than Lincoln and Jefferson.
Obama is the best presidential candidate ever.
Republicans favor slavery.
McCain’s presidency will usher in the end of democracy.
My personal feelings on this matter are essentially the same as Pete Townsend’s – meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The day I put my hopes and dreams in an elected politician, no matter what race he/she is, instead of myself and my family and friends is the day democracy dies. That’s the true conservative way.
(cue patriotic music as bucslim rides into the sunset in his gas guzzling 1969 Pink Cadillac with all leather cow interior, smoking Camel non-filters, eating quarter pounders with cheese and tossing the non bio-degradable styrofoam containers right out the window as he runs over baby seals)
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:00 am
an excerpt from an article from last night
“The Republican gathering also featured Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, the Democrat-turned-independent who was the 2000 Democratic vice presidential nominee. “I’m here to support John McCain because country matters more than party,” said Lieberman, who gave the night’s featured prime-time address.”
Even the Democrats don’t believe in Obama. Hillary smeared him for months and then threw herself at him like a cheerleader to the quarterback hoping he’d roofie her and she’d wake up VP.
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:04 am
a link to the story before anyone starts hounding me for sources
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/politics/bal-te.gop03sep03,0,381979.story
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:58 am
At least you guys are keeping me a good chuckle for my money and keeping it “light-ish”. I expected a lot more poo.
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:00 am
Cedestra ~ LOL. A lot more poo. I like that.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:35 am
I’m English and think Americans mainly will embrace him because he is black and they want to prove they are not racist, unfortunately, I don’t think he will win on merit but purely because of his skin colour. I for one would not like a black or asian person running britain nor would i like a white person running Kenya or Ethiopia unless the country was legitimately owned by the country from which that white person was from, i.e India in the days when it was a British territory.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:13 am
Callie:
“Even the Democrats don’t believe in Obama.”
Joe Lieberman is NOT a democrat. He is, to put it charitably, an independent. I’d have other titles for him that are less neutral, but we’ll leave it at that.
“Hillary smeared him for months and then threw herself at him like a cheerleader to the quarterback hoping he’d roofie her and she’d wake up VP.”
Nonsense. Politics aren’t played that way. When you’re trying to win a nomination, you attack the front runner or your chief rival. This is to be expected. Then, whoever gets the nomination, you support that person if you’re interested in remaining a loyal member of the party. That’s that. Republicans do the same thing all the time. It’s the way the game is played.
Let’s not get silly about this.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:27 am
370. bucslim: ~’cause he an asshole (asshole) odee-oh-dee oh A S S H O L E!~
I had to, sorry. It just…flowed.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:36 am
he’s certainly not a conservative.
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:52 am
Wow. What a bunch of short-sighted blowhards. Conservative? Liberal? Why the hell does any of that matter? Can anyone here look me in the eyes and tell me the country is better off now than it was 8 years ago? Can anybody look anywhere and say that with a straight face?
The simple fact of the matter is that McCain supports Bush’s policies, foreign, domestic and economic. His voting record indicates that he voted pro-Bush policies 90-95% of the time for the last two terms. It is largely these policies that are responsible for the reprehensible state of this country: inflation skyrocketing, housing market tanked, corporations and conglomerates swimming in flabbergasting record profit margins while the average American scrapes the couch cushion to buy gas to get to work, the gov’t infiltrating our personal lives like never before, an expensive and needless war that to this day is still raging…I could go on and on.
My question: Why, if you know that the former administration’s policies didn’t work, would you elect a man and a platform that is assured to continue those same policies into the next 4 years? It’s logic. Obama may not necessarily be the ideal man for the job, but he is certainly the lesser of two evils. Don’t let your blind devotion to your party decide whether or not to dump the country in the crapper.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:04 am
bucslim:
“So Randall – the end of your democracy. Really? McCain runs on the platform of ending our democracy. Is he going to set up a dictatorship? Appoint himself King? Czar? So he might be ‘voted’ in, then he’ll dismantle the election process?”
Cute, pinhead, but you know better. Or you ought to know better. During the Bush administration’s tenure we’ve seen the first withdraw of Habeas Corpus; the anti-American and intrusive “Patriot Act;” the gathering of unprecedented powers within the Executive Branch; (as well as a recalcitrant Executive Branch which ignores and steps over congressional oversight and protests, not to mention law) and, at least when it was controlled by Republicans, a congress all too willing to roll over and allow the President to do as he pleased with little or no oversight.
Not to mention the fact that there’s every indication and a great deal of evidence indicating that the Republican party flat-out stole the last two presidential elections, including the use of tricks, disenfranchisement of voters, and other less publicized means.
Our democracy is a fine balance of the separation of powers. And it has *not* been served at all well by the Bush administration—though this also began *before* Bush ever took office.
But it also isn’t merely about the presidency getting more powerful (it has been, since WWII, despite a brief period of drawback following Watergate). It’s also about the nature of our society. The media has become a corporate-controlled paper tiger, and the American people *themselves* have become less inclined towards liberty and individuality and even political freedom itself in the last three decades. If you don’t see this, I advise you to peek out from under that large rock you’re living beneath. Some social issues have “gone left” as it were–homosexuality has a greater acceptance today, and it might be argued that women have greater opportunities (certainly seems that way with Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin now) and certainly when we see a black man who has the nomination of a major party, we can say there’s been some progress on racial issues as well. But at the same time we’ve seen a vast increase in the power of the whacko-and-tyrannical religious right and a huge tendency overall towards restrictiveness and exclusion and loss of privacy in our culture.
“The way I see it it’s the other way around. Liberals are always telling people what they can and can’t do.”
This is the way a teenager sees political philosophies. Every time I hear your rhetoric on this issue, I get the distinct impression that you simply never grew up. And that you think we’re still fighting against radical liberals from the sixties.
“Businesses aren’t allowed to make money, particularly small buisnesses because they are taxed and regulated out of business.”
Don’t talk to me about the burden of taxation on business; I’m from New York–I know it first hand. But New York, and what you’re railing against, are Old School. You ought, however, to explain how it was that under Bill Clinton (I never liked him myself, but I honestly acknowledge what he did) we managed record growth and job creation, and balanced budgets.
Only a softheaded tool (or off-their-nut libertarians) believes that ALL taxes and regulation are bad. The question is how much and for what reason.
“The only free speech is their brand of free speech.”
hmmm… how so?
“Rich people are the scum of society.”
How many have you known?
“My worth as a human being is viewed from the standpoint of how ‘green’ I am.”
And praytell, what’s wrong with that? Do you not feel you have some responsibility to the rest of humanity and to the biosphere that allows you to exist?
“Fairness is defined as taking money from hardworking people and giving it to people who don’t.”
Sure. Okay.
“Obama’s accomplishments will be greater than Lincoln and Jefferson.”
Well please remember, I never said that. I thought it was nutty too.
“Obama is the best presidential candidate ever.”
Never said that either, nor do I believe it.
“Republicans favor slavery.”
Republicans have stood for and stand for a lot of suspiciously racist things. Don’t like it, too bad. That’s the record.
“McCain’s presidency will usher in the end of democracy.”
It would likely be the next step pal.
“The day I put my hopes and dreams in an elected politician, no matter what race he/she is, instead of myself and my family and friends is the day democracy dies. That’s the true conservative way.”
What a lovely fantasy you live in. I wish, myself, that that’s what conservatism was, but it isn’t, and what we’re dealing with has got nothing to do with conservatism. What you’re actually saying is that you can ignore what goes on in politics because you think it shouldn’t matter. Laughable. Regardless of your political stance, the fact is that we live in a mega-nation governed by representatives of our supposed interests, but what it is in theory and what it is in practice are two entirely different things.
Certainly the Republican party has drifted FAR away from the libertarian views you’re touting, and now stands for as much big government as you claim the left stands for.
You like to make a joke about this shit, and sometimes it’s funny… but the fact is that down deep it isn’t funny at all. It’s sad and tragic and in the end, you’ll get what you deserve if you bury your head in the sand of nonsense that you’ve buried it in.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:10 am
Slickwilly:
Thank you. Naturally I agree with everything you said, 100%.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:20 am
Johnny English, (325),
“I for one would not like a black or asian person running britain nor would i like a white person running Kenya or Ethiopia”
An Amazonian indian as president of Brazil then? Inuits running Canada? Abos for Oz. Maori for Kiwi. And I believe I’m right in thinking that would make bushmen the rightful political inheritors of the southern sector of Africa. Oh, and might it also entail a little matter of neither McCain or Obama being qualified for the presidential race (pun intended)? Or did whites, zulus and bantus come along afterwards and *legitimately own* all the nations and territories those original inhabitants used to occupy? Have you actually asked THEM? While you’re about it, try asking the legitimate native inhabitants of West Irian too.
So you’d rather have a piss-poor Anglo-Saxon running Britain than a better-qualified descendant from Carribean immigrants or a better British-born Asian, eh? Well, fucked if I would. A few top British soccer teams took that attitude. White players only, please, we’re British. Count how many there are now on the fingers of no hands and ask yourself why they changed.
Were we but mole rats (blind), no such question would even arise. Nothing but *best mole-rat for the job* in that case.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:26 am
Callie, I will have to support Randall on that point. Roll back the clock about a half a year ago and you will see the jibes taken at McCain by Guliani, Romney, et al. The nominees clamor to the top and basically whomever raises the most money wins. Then, the losers turn around and support the winner 100%. It’s happened with every election since, I’d guess the latter half of the 20th century, if not earlier.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:29 am
re: 325. If Obama wins because of his skin color, it’s not because America wants to look color-blind, it’s because enough pro-black people rallied together to make it happen. Your statement is smelly and full of poo. I expected this from others, but not from you. You disappoint me, sir.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:30 am
All I heard was blah blah stole the last two elections blah blah expensive and needless war. The same old tired liberal, sorry, Democrat bullshit. Guess what? The surge is working in Iraq (why else do you not see it on the news anymore-the news is too good to report) and Bush won fair and square, get over it.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:31 am
Randall,
“You like to make a joke about this shit, and sometimes it’s funny… but the fact is that down deep it isn’t funny at all. It’s sad and tragic and in the end, you’ll get what you deserve if you bury your head in the sand of nonsense that you’ve buried it in.”
No it isn’t at all funny deep down, and the profoundest tragedy is that if enough bury their heads in the sand we shall ALL OF US get what THEY deserve. That’s the interlocking reality of *globalisation*.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:35 am
Cedestra, I think a little different this year was Hillary was actually praising *McCain* in the primaries in her attempt to discredit Obama. The good news is McCain can use all that crap in awesome commercials!
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:42 am
Cedestra, (334),
Disappoints me too, but sadly does not surprise. I do not suppose, and never have, that all my fellow-countrymen are white (double meaning intended). *Sir* is not obligatory when addressing an Englishman, by the way, but may however be applied with a ladle-full of heavy sarcasm (as by the wits of the Regency).
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 am
Randall ~ Assumption on my part, I guess. Bill O’Reilly’s a registered Independent, too. You are aweful quick to defend dems and bash republicans.
Which party wants to implement the Fairness Doctrine to silence it’s critics? Which party wants to penalize corporations for so-called “windfall profits?” Which party has positioned itself so that it would benefit from defeat in Iraq? Which party’s leadership credited Iran’s “good will” with our success from the surge instead of our brave troops and Iraqi soldiers? Which party is a slave of the teacher’s unions and won’t even consider use of vouchers to empower parents?
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 am
rushfan:
By the way, I have NEVER “admitted” I’m a democrat. I am, in fact, a registered Independent.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 am
wow. i’m a time-traveler now.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Go democrats for sure! If McCain is voted to be our next president then the economy will be completely shot for another 8 years! Ugh, it sickens me to think of that happening.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
A Nun O Miss: McCain would be pleased to know that if he wins he will get 8 years instead of 4. Wow, Republicans really are powerful.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Quick, name one piece of legislation that Sen. Obama has authored or co-written since he has been in the U.S. Senate.
Cricket, Cricket.
Oh, that’s right, the answer is none. Quite a record of accomplishment the junior senator from Illinois has compiled during his tenure. Other than being over the age of 35 and an excellent public speaker, his qualifications to be the president of the United States are thin at best.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Its an almost guarantee that if McCain is voted to be our president, he will surely be voted in again after 4 years…no thanks to the south.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
rushfan:
Which party wants to outlaw abortion? Which party wants to bring the teaching of “creation science” in our schools? Which party has stood for the intrusive and un-American “Patriot Act?” Which party has stood idly by while George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have run roughshod over the Constitution and refused to do its job in terms of congressional oversight on the actions of the Executive Branch? Which party continually gives enormous tax breaks to huge corporations and other power brokers while burdening the middle class with higher and higher taxes? Which party has been responsible for the dangerously widening gap between rich and poor? Which party practically sanctioned the sort of corrupt double dealing by companies like Enron? Which party has allowed endless conflicts of interest over the last eight years (Halliburton, etc.) to go unchecked? Which party gave us a president who has ruined our overseas standing and reputation and driven our economy into the ground? Which party supported that president’s incredible strategic blunders? Which party waves the flag in our face as a means of distracting us, calling anyone who disagrees with them “haters of America” and other blather? Which party is responsible for the NEEDLESS deaths of thousands of American soldiers and thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians in a TOTALLY UNNECESSARY AND STUPID war that diverted our attention from the TRUE conflict we should have been fighting, in Afghanistan?
We could go on and on and on, ad nauseum.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Randall: “Which party has been responsible for the dangerously widening gap between rich and poor?” Answer: Democrats and that damn NAFTA.
A Nun O Miss: maybe since there are more voters in the North and West, you should blame them for who ends up as President.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Randall ~ I was seriously raising legitimate issues about the stances of the Democratic party. It seems you’re just rehashing the same old tired anti-war partisan crap. And I thought you weren’t even a Democrat, why the hostility?
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Which party has Keith Olberman?
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Which party has Babs Streisand?
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
My head’s buried in the sand? I thought it was stuck up my right wing ass!
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:46 pm
S.D. Schaffer:
WRONG!!
Bills co-written or written by Obama in the US Senate:
Global Poverty Act (S.2433)
Requires the President to develop and implement a comprehensive policy to cut extreme global poverty in half by 2015 through aid, trade, debt relief, and coordination with the international community, businesses and NGOs.
Legislative Transparency and Accountability Act (S. 230)
Strict bans on receiving gifts and meals from lobbyists; new rules to slow the revolving door between public and private sector service; and an end to the subsidized use of corporate jets.
Lugar-Obama Nonproliferation Legislation
Expands U.S. cooperation to destroy conventional weapons. It also expands the State Department’s ability to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction.
Obama also INTRODUCED some 113 bills while in the senate.
Get off it clown.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
rushfan:
“I was seriously raising legitimate issues about the stances of the Democratic party…”
*I* was SERIOUSLY raising legitimate issues about the SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP and out of touch Republican party which has lost ALL SENSE of perspective and totally lost its values! Why do you think I LEFT it? I was a member of the Republican party from the year I could VOTE, rushfan.
YOU are accusing ME of “partisan crap?” PLEASE.
and “anti-war?” Are you saying you were IN FAVOR of the war in Iraq? Pray tell us, young lady… WHY? What justification do you have for it? What did it accomplish? What USE was it? What did all those young men lay down their lives for?
Don’t get sanctimonious with ME about this war crap, rushfan. As I’ve said here before, I come from a military family. And THEY are the first goddamn ones to know that you don’t blindly support wars just because your country and your president is pushing them.
There was no earthly reason for that war in Iraq. It was stupid and wasteful from the get-go, the product of neo-conservative elitists like Wolfowitz who thought we could “bring democracy” to all of the Middle East if only we tried. And thousands of lives later and what do we have to show for it? NOTHING. Al Qaeda still out there, Bin Laden free, BILLIONS of dollars down the drain, our economy in a shambles, and the world hating us.
Pointless, useless, and wasteful! AFGHANISTAN and Al QAEDA should have been the focus. I said this ages ago here—I wanted to see Bin Laden’s head on a pike outside the capitol building! Okay, not really, but figuratively, it’s what should have come to pass. We should have never HEARD of the Taliban again! But they’ve been continually raiding and staging resurgences in Afghanistan ever since Bush blundered into Iraq and declared “mission accomplished.” But today the Taliban continues to commit atrocities–IN MANY INSTANCES AGAINST WOMEN who dare to ignore their insane religious invectives and “laws”–and all because WE haven’t put our focus where it SHOULD have been.
It was nice that you created that list of violence against women a while back—but does it not bother you in the least that at least ONE group is allowed to CONTINUE its violence against women out there in the world because WE who could have CRUSHED them did NOT, because we had to go and invade a country that had NOTHING to do with the attack on our shores?
Bothers me. I’d love to know why it doesn’t bother YOU.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Randall ~ Get off your fucking high horse. You’re in the majority, okay? I get it. I just don’t happen to believe that George Bush is evil. Sorry. We are in a global war on terrorism and Iraq is one front in that war. After 9/11 it was necessary to take any and all threats seriously. Actually, it was necessary before 9/11 but Clinton ignored all terrorist attacks from the embasy bombings to the USS Cole. The international community (not just the US) had intelligence that said Saddam had or was close to developing dangerous weapons. The UN passes how many resolutions? He used chemical weapons on his own people. We happen to be winning the war in Iraq. The soldiers you feel sorry for, I feel proud of. They know what their duty is and why they’re there. And they’re doing a fucking good job, too. Did you watch all of those brave Iraqi citizens risk their lives to vote? Well, I did. It’s funny, no, actually it’s a trajedy, that any good news or news of progress made in Iraq seems to be mysteriously not reported on the news. Well I for one don’t need the mainstream media to form my opinions for me and I sure as hell don’t need you to talk to me as if you know it all because you sure as hell don’t.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
And now for a moment of comedic relief during the Rushfan V. Randall political extravaganza…
Hillary Clinton, when asked by Tim Russert why she voted for the war in Iraq, said she “thought it was a vote to put inspectors back in”. The name of the resolution was “A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.” Ha, ha, ha…that might have fooled the voters in Arkansas but you are on a national stage now, missy. Anyway, Barak or John…both are better than Hillarious Clinton.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:39 pm
trojan-maaaaaan ~
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:50 pm
and another thing…Nobody is “for” war. Sometimes it is necessary to win the war to win the peace. The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all. They have the ability, they just use *amazing* restraint and don’t obliterate their enemy. And they’re still hated! So there goes y’alls theories about America being hated all over the world because of Bush. We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid. The war on terrorism is some tricky shit. We’re not fighting a country, we’re fighting an ideology. It sucks, but I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves or some other twit who thinks global warming is the biggest issue we face. It’s not. By a long shot. I for one don’t want to live under Sharia Law. How about you?
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:51 pm
# 352 Randall- neither S.2433 nor S.230 have been passed into law, according to Govtrak. The Lugar-Obama Non Proliferation legislation was signed by President Bush. So score one for you. I stand corrected.
I await your retraction.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Rushfan: I’m here all week…tip your bartenders and wait staff…drinks are free if you’re gambling.
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Ohhh my god! I cant believe it .. Are theseguys racist or sumfin? He could be one of the best president.. you cannot judge people by their race you judge presidets by judging them on their job!
September 3rd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Im always right!
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Wow. Well stated Sally. Expert use of the oft-ignored word “sumfin.”
September 3rd, 2008 at 2:27 pm
rushfan: akin to the word “sumbitch”
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Randall – Dude, I’m tired of explaining it to you. You’ve painted me with the wrong brush, and I resent that. I”m actively involved in my community and family and I care deeply about what goes on in Washington. It’s not a fantasy. Trust is another thing. I’m not in the least bit libertarian I’ve never brought up the subject of Ron Paul in any argument -and I’ve been a conservative Republican since I could vote because for the most part, they stand for the issues and policies that make the most sense to me. Your not going to change my mind just because the latest liberal wunderkind is close to being elected.
I’ll never understand your east coast elitism, the past couple of post seem as if you’re looking down your nose at my views. I’ve read all of your posts directed at myself very carefully. I make jokes to point out the Chicken Little nonsense you’re spouting. Lighten up dude, the sun’ll come up tomorrow, no matter what douchebag is in office. I just think you’re putting your trust in someone who’s promising the fricken moon, every politician does that.
I’m so done with this. I’m voting for that non-conservative McCain and positively out of the park conservative Palin.
rushfan – you’re amazing. Nice to have someone in here to help me carry the torch.
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
-bucslim
twas a joke fine sir. Don’t get all bent out of shape just because someone made a joke on the ‘your view’ involving a black person.
gotta get back to work, later days!
also..
U.S. Citizen votes don’t have alot of power in the end. The electoral college does. And my view is that greedy old white men will elect greedy old white men. therefore, until we get a good amount of greedy old africans, or greedy old women, we aren’t ready to have a different colored president.(tis a joke people, calm down)
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Rushfan:
You keep expounding on this idea that we are winning the war in Iraq. I ask you: who cares?! Why does it matter that we are winning or losing if the war was largely unjustified and without merit in the first place? Why does it matter that we are winning (a very vague term, by the way) if it cost the American taxpayers BILLIONS that could have been spent any number of other ways domestically are in the REAL war: Afghanistan? Not to mention that THOUSANDS of both American and Allied soldiers and THOUSANDS of Iraqi citizens have died because of it? Yes, Iraq now has some sort of quasi-democratic government in place, and (some) of the people are happy with us. But how long will this last? And at what cost? The sad thing is, when this tenuous democracy ultimately crumbles back to the primitive theocracies that preceeded it, the republicans will be pointing their fingers at the forthcoming administration rather than cast the shame on the actions of the leader that actualized it.
“So there goes y’alls theories about America being hated all over the world because of Bush. We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid…It sucks, but I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves…”
So you can honestly tell me that G.W.’s cowboy politics haven’t harmed our image in PREVIOUSLY FRIENDLY nations? That the utter arrogance of the U.S. in proceeding with a war condemned by the other nations that equally inhabit this planet was not conceited and supercilious? You know, many, many people in other countries view the USA as all of these things. Do you mean to tell them that their perceptions are all equally mistaken? That the United States hasn’t, by the actions of its leaders, shown itself to believe that it is above what the rest of the world – that is, the GLOBAL COMMUNITY – thinks of it? You say that we shouldn’t care what the rest of the world thinks of us, but this is only indicative of that sterotypical American close-mindedness that we – thanks to our adminstration – have now been branded with. The fact of the matter is, we may be one of if not the most powerful nations in the world, but we still answer to the UN and we are still obligated to participate in the international community. That means actually caring about how we are perceived in other parts of the world not irrationally opposed based on our stance with Israel. If you honestly see a problem with this, then you are nothing but the archetypal example of the boorish, ignorant American stereotype.
Rushfan, I find your level of hypocracy abhorrent. You come here railing how democrats do nothing but rehash standard partisan critcisms while being guilty of the same crime, choosing to hide it behind the rehashed partisan excuses of your own ineffectual party. You cast derision on us because you feel your party still stands for the idealistic notions of the past, while in practice it fails to live up to any of them. You cast out the GOP-sanctioned, pro-war propaganda and emphasize its importance while failing to even entertain the notion that you or your party might be wrong. You have a very close-minded world view and frankly, it’s a bit offensive to be accused of such when the accuser is markedly ignorant of certain introspective truths.
I don’t care what you may have to say about why the democratic party sucks. I’ll be the first to admit its flaws and shortcomings. But that’s what separates me and you. I can understand how my party is wrong. You seem unable to do that.
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Steady rushfan, steady.
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:06 pm
365. Kase, the electoral college *is* a joke, but not a funny one. It’s a terribly, terribly sad joke.
I’m angry that I only get to vote for someone who “pledges” to vote for someone, but isn’t accountable for that pledge. Once elected, that member of the electoral college can vote for whomever they please.
Every time someone rambles on about our Democracy, I want to shake them by the shoulders and shout at them “Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! You learned this in 5th grade!”
Then I realize it won’t make one iota of difference. Nothing changes. Everything we do remains the same, no matter what we call it. Everything that happens remains the same, no matter what we call it. The electoral college is a disaster, no matter if we remember to call it what it is or not.
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Slick ~ I like you, man. But you have no idea what you’re talking about. Granted, you are obviously educated. But I am not a Republican hack, my comment was not in support of Republicans, it was in response to Randall. I’m honestly shocked by your strong reaction. We disagree. Isn’t that what makes America great? That we can disagree? I support the war. You don’t. But you made some leaps in logic to condemn me so forcefully. I’m just some mom in Texas who doesn’t want some pussy in the White House who’s gonna back down in the face of terrorists, which is honestly what I feel we’ll get with Obama. My best friend is a yoga instructor vegan anarchist… we don’t all have to have the same views, but we can still be friends and respect each other’s views, right?
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:42 pm
rushfan:
“Slick ~ I like you, man. But you have no idea what you’re talking about.”
I should say the same about you.
“But I am not a Republican hack, my comment was not in support of Republicans.”
My apologies. Though if I were to draw up a list of characteristics of a republican hack, you’d have met several of them in this exchange. You can see how I could have made that mistake. Don’t call the kettle black, Ms. Pot. That’s all I’ll say.
“But you made some leaps in logic to condemn me so forcefully.”
Pray tell. It certainly seems to me that, by your comments and general attitude here, that you have been tacitly guilty of most of the things I mentioned, and explicitly guilty of the rest. The way you’ve argued against Randall is typical of conservative propaganda, and I don’t like feeling like I’m being mocked through my political affiliations by someone who sometimes doesn’t seem to see the nose on the front of her face.
“I’m just some mom in Texas who doesn’t want some pussy in the White House who’s gonna back down in the face of terrorists, which is honestly what I feel we’ll get with Obama.”
You think he is a “pussy” that is going to “back down in the face of terrorists.” What are your reasons for this? Of course you understand that anything other than his stated agendas or voting record will be irrational reasoning. I believe you’re smarter than that, anyway, so I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
September 4th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Well apparently they ARE ready or else he would not be in the position he’s in…although that could just amount to people just not wanting a female president haha maybe the next ‘your view’?
And for the record I don’t base my opinion on gender or race.
September 4th, 2008 at 3:53 am
Is the US ready for a black president, most likely not. Is it ready for another Bush, absolutely not.
September 4th, 2008 at 5:33 am
S.D.Schaffer:
I’ll retract nothing, pinhead. You made no proviso, in your original bullshit statement, about “bills passed in to law.” You asked for ONE piece of legislation that Obama had written or co-written in the senate. That is ALL you asked for.
You were flat-dead wrong, pure and simple, and nothing more than yet another mouth for right-wing propaganda bullshit.
September 4th, 2008 at 5:50 am
rushfan:
“The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all.”
Oh? Is that so, madam? And how would you suggest the Israelis ought to be allowed to go about this “defeat (of the Palestinians) once and for all?” Hmm? Kill every last one of them? If that’s what it took?
What does that statement of yours MEAN?
See, you talk here and in your statements regarding Iraq like the typical person who knows nothing of war and thinks it’s okay to blithely say this or that military action should be carried out, or is viable, or is acceptable.
I like you and bucslim—you’re good people. But your politics is the kind of know-nothing populism that always gets our society and our country overseas into deep shit. Sometimes it’s mitigated by other factors–Reagan managed to pull us out of miasma before the damage he was doing really set in. But George W. Bush and his lapdog congress showed us how bad it can get when this kind of ignorant worldview gets its own way for too long. If you like the way the last 8 years have gone–even halfway–then you’re so out of touch that I don’t know what more to say to you.
My SENSE is that you two are in the minority… at least you are for the people *I* talk to, and no, they’re not all academic intellectuals, not by a LONG shot. I live in blue-collarsville, and to a man and woman, every single one of them hate Bush and are angry as hell at the Republicans and think Sarah Palin is a freakin’ retard, along with being a retarded choice for VP.
I trust this is the prevalent view nationwide. We’ll see.
September 4th, 2008 at 6:38 am
On these two tickets, I’m paying very strong attention to the running mates. We have a very old (the oldest running for president) man who could easily die in office and a black man who could easily be assassinated (although if anyone would have been assassinated by now, it would have been Bush). So, what’s left is an inexperienced, extremely right-winged woman and an experienced, plageristic man. I think we should be looking long and hard at the running mates.
So long as the SS does their job, the more stable ticket seems to be the Democrats.
September 4th, 2008 at 6:56 am
Cedestra, (375),
A couple of points.
Excellent point above. Probably crucial.
Secondly, I’m so sorry I responded in any way at all to that momentary madness that went on under your name. As one who has also had aliases nicked, I should have realised or kept quiet. It didn’t seem to add up in any way to what I remembered as Cedestra postings. Yet I felt you might have been responding outrageously to some outrageous comments or situation I had missed, and wanted to make clear at least one reader was taking it simply as off the wall. I was also a bit distracted there and then. By the time the awful truth dawned I had acted indelibly, if indefinitely. At least, happily the ordure was removed, and my comments are mild and meaningless. But deep apologies all the same.
I find it disturbing that there can be no equivalent to a *spam filter* to prevent the identical form of name and ideally the same run of letters from hitting the screen. Our identities are very important here, both to those who know us and respond to us, and also as flags for our overall views, personalities and standards of behaviour.
September 4th, 2008 at 7:40 am
rushfan:
“We are in a global war on terrorism and Iraq is one front in that war.”
No, it isn’t, and it never was. It’s convenient to ignore the truth and the facts and evidence when they don’t agree with you, rush, but it isn’t *honest.* Saddam’s Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and there’s no evidence that he even exported terrorism of *any* kind directed at the US. And there was never any evidence of any kind that he was trying to produce a nuclear weapon. It’s long been established that all of these excuses were invented by the Bush administration–the problem is that Congress has never had the guts to call him on it and impeach the son of a bitch. But I take it you never heard of the Downing Street memo, or any of the other documents and testimonies which establish that the Bush administration *knew all along* that they were lying to the American public and to the rest of the world, distorting and fabricating whatever they felt they needed so they could carry out whatever nutty strategic “plan” they had in mind which demanded that they invade Iraq and topple Saddam. I applauded the fact that a bastard dictator was overthrown, but the simple fact is that we had no justification for it, and it was a monumental strategic error.
You can harp all you want on this, promoting the propaganda that we’re now “winning the war in Iraq” and that “the surge is working” as though these contentions somehow make the whole thing okay–utterly ignoring how A) it was WRONG in the first place B) a HUGE waste of lives, time, resources and our economy and C) it accomplished NOTHING of a practical value beyond ending the rule of a lousy tyrant. Nice, that last, but hardly worth what we put into it. Every SINGLE other aspect of it has been a complete and utter FAILURE.
“After 9/11 it was necessary to take any and all threats seriously.”
I love this kind of bullshit rhetoric. As if no one WOULD take threats seriously after 9/11. Sure.
“Actually, it was necessary before 9/11 but Clinton ignored all terrorist attacks from the embasy bombings to the USS Cole.”
I’m not here to defend the poor foreign policy maneuvers of the Clinton administration. I, in fact, agree that he fucked up. But I find it telling that you find it so easy to criticize *Clinton* for his errors in this regard–but you won’t raise a voice to criticize BUSH for *his* far greater errors. Clinton could at least say that no one could have conceived of a 9/11 plot before it actually happened (I certainly couldn’t imagine it–to this day it still seems like some crap they’d invent in a Hollywood movie)… but what excuse can Bush use? Where is Bin Laden? Why is the TALIBAN still operating almost *freely* in Afghanistan? And more besides.
“The international community (not just the US) had intelligence that said Saddam had or was close to developing dangerous weapons.”
Wrong, and a blatant falsehood. The fact is that no such intelligence ever existed–the best they had were unproved suppositions and faint indications here and there, most of them completely untrustworthy.
Again, you are spouting right-wing propaganda which hasn’t even a smidgeon of truth in it.
“The UN passes how many resolutions? He used chemical weapons on his own people.”
What does THAT have to do with 9/11 and the war on terror? Again, it was a meaningless and pointless DIVERSION from where our attentions SHOULD have been.
“We happen to be winning the war in Iraq.”
Again, irrelevant.
“The soldiers you feel sorry for, I feel proud of.”
AS IF I’M NOT PROUD OF THEM. I TOLD YOU, rushfan, don’t pull that flag-waving “you hate America and hate our soldiers while I’m a patriotic TRUE Amurrican” with ME, young lady. What the hell did YOUR family EVER do to serve this country? Do they have the same record as mine? I highly doubt it. Yet you feel free to impugn MY patriotism? Get off it. Moreover, those soldiers you’re so “proud” of–in fact, informal polling has indicated that a *majority* of them feel their time in Iraq has been *wasted* and that they have NOT been fighting the *real* enemy there.
REAL soldiers, rushfan, don’t just blindly cheerlead for whatever conflict they’re sent into. They KNOW when they’re being bullshitted, and know when their time and effort is being wasted. Why do you think so many former generals and admirals have come out with criticisms of this war, and criticisms of the Bush administration’s handling of it? Why do you think so many generals have left service? Why do you think so many of them protested Rumsfeld’s reckless decisions and attitudes in regards to how the war should be prosecuted?
“Did you watch all of those brave Iraqi citizens risk their lives to vote? Well, I did.”
Good for you—another irrelevant pull at the heartstrings and self-congratulation. Have you checked in how many of those noble Iraqi citizens have taken up arms against us? And how many of them have *died* needlessly in the in-fighting? And how many of them are now angry as hell at us?
“Well I for one don’t need the mainstream media to form my opinions for me and I sure as hell don’t need you to talk to me as if you know it all because you sure as hell don’t.”
What you sure as hell DO need, rushfan, is some education and to listen to SOMEONE other than Rush goddamn fucking Limbaugh. Ignoring the “mainstream media” doesn’t make you smart, rush. Not if you’re not filling the gap with something other than one sided propaganda.
“and another thing…Nobody is “for” war. Sometimes it is necessary to win the war to win the peace.”
Exactly the typical kind of talk one hears from armchair generals who don’t go themselves, but feel comfortable to rah rah rah for whatever action they feel “needs” to be taken.
“The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all.”
See my earlier point about this. That statement is reprehensible.
“They have the ability, they just use *amazing* restraint and don’t obliterate their enemy.”
But apparently you think they should do just that? Obliterate them?
“We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid.”
More nonsense self-congratulation. No, rushfan, we are now distrusted and hated by people all over the world because our foreign policy the last eight years has been bullying, self-serving, reckless, and one-sided. We’re no longer the leader we once were, we’re a bullying bull in a china shop that looks like it’s trying to lay the foundations of empire. Whether true or not, that’s how it appears to people the world over. Of course, it’s convenient for to deny that and pretend it ain’t so, sitting where you sit… but that doesn’t make you right.
“I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves”
The mark of a true leader, rush, is not just blundering in and doing what you think should be done, when everyone else advises you its wrong. That’s the mark of a bully and a self-righteous idiot, which Bush has been proven to be. There’s nothing wrong with listening to one’s trusted and true allies and friends and acting within some accord on their feelings. Yes, sometimes you gotta take a lead and be out on your own—but handled properly it never becomes what it HAS become. Bush’s problem is that he was incapable of handling this situation thusly–instead, he handled it like no one else in the world mattered. That kind of crap may play in the trailer parks but it isn’t the smart way to run a superpower.
September 4th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Randall, tl;dr.
September 4th, 2008 at 8:26 am
“Moreover, those soldiers you’re so “proud” of–in fact, informal polling has indicated that a *majority* of them feel their time in Iraq has been *wasted* and that they have NOT been fighting the *real* enemy there”
Reaaaaalllly? I am young (you know this) and graduated from college just last year. I have SEVERAL (as in more than I can count on one hand) friends who are in the military and have gone/are going to serve tours. These are well educated men, three of whom have master’s degrees at or before age 24 and are from both military and non- military families. Not one of them signed up for the help with college tuition, and not one of them is of the “Heh. Guns. Let’s get shooting” mentality.
And they ALL are pround to serve, and fight for their country. Not one of them has complained to me about his time being wasted. Are you in Iraq Randall? No, I don’t believe so. You can informal poll and much as you want, as can I, but you and I will NEVER have a soldier mindset- I don’t care if your family goes back more generations than Lt. Dan’s did, you have no right to come on here spouting “soldiers hate the war!” as a defense against it. My grandfather was shot down over Germany and spent 3 years as a POW during WWII, and even he keeps quiet about this situation because he simply thinks it’s not his war. If you want to honestly complain about a solider wasting his time, that, pick up a gun, get on the front line, and become one..see how well your pompous blowharding does there.
Furthermore, you can’t tell me that 8 years ago after 9/11 whichever party was in the White House coule have stood by and not done anything. Do you honestly think if we had a Democrap in office back then we wouldn’t be at war with someone today?
September 4th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Callie:
“And they ALL are pround to serve, and fight for their country.”
This is NOT the same thing as feeling that the war is correct and has been a good use of their time and effort. Again, I repeat–there has been informal polling of soldiers who have spent a great deal of time in Iraq, and amongst soldiers who have returned… and OF the soldiers talked to, a majority of them have expressed dissatisfaction with the way the war has been handled and with the very idea of it.
No, soldiers do NOT normally talk about this kind of thing. But they are NOT stupid and they do not just blindly support situations which they find untenable.
But don’t tell me I don’t have a “right” to simply report what soldiers themselves have been saying. YOU need to justify YOUR stance when, again, as I said earlier, there is EVERY evidence that the military from the TOP DOWN has not supported this war or the way it has been run *from the beginning.* Again, if you don’t agree with that, then you explain the criticism from former generals and admirals that has been *rife,* and why so many of them have spoken out.
“If you want to honestly complain about a solider wasting his time, that, pick up a gun, get on the front line, and become one..see how well your pompous blowharding does there.”
This is EXACTLY the opposite of traditional logic in regards to this kind of question. RATHER, Callie, it should be on YOU as a supporter of the war (it seems you are from what you’re saying) to be willing to pick up a gun and go there YOURSELF. I do NOT support this war, and only report the FACTS about it along with my opinions BASED on those facts. Why should it then logically follow that *I* should HAVE to “join up” in order to express my opinion? That’s about the most dunderheaded thing I’ve heard all day.
I can’t speak for your silent grandfather. My father and five of my uncles fought in combat in WWII, my father a bomber pilot, two of my uncles in the navy, and three of my uncles in the army. ALL in combat. They did their duty and were proud of it, but they also–each and every one of them–came out of it hating war and knowing what it is, and knowing that it has to be prosecuted responsibly and intelligently. THIS war in Iraq has been anything but. You can bet your ass if any of them were still alive they’d be opposed to it—though they would NOT have been opposed to the war in Afghanistan that SHOULD have been our focus the last eight years, but hasn’t been.
“Do you honestly think if we had a Democrap in office back then we wouldn’t be at war with someone today?”
Cute, but stupid. The point is NOT that we shouldn’t have been in ANY war the last eight years, but that we should have been in the RIGHT one. But the fact is that the RIGHT war (Afghantistan)has been neglected and even ignored by this administration so that it could INSTEAD waste time, lives, effort and resources on a chimera in Iraq.
September 4th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Oh so if we were in Afghanistan, you would suddenly become pro-war? You would join up on the side of Buc, Rush, and myself? Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?
And you’re damn right if I’m ever called upon I’d go serve. Did I sign up? No, because I’m quite little and would probably just get in the way on the front lines, but if there were ever a draft, and women were included, and I was drafted, hell yes I’d go. You tout your military background as proof of patriotism, yet seem to have a deep hatred of this country and most of the people in it except for your daughters, your neighbor Mike, and your hot co-ed’s.
Let’s say your boy gets elected. Let’s say he dies. ( I know it’s a long shot, but it’s entirely possible. Obama could drop just as easy as McCain) Biden is now President of the US. Psssst….Biden voted FOR THE WAR. Now what?
September 4th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Is America ready for that drastic a change? Yes it sure is after the bullshit of GWB and his croneys. But are they ready for a man like Obama? I don’t think that his many supporters may know the real truth of this guy. He’s just too far left wing for most of the American public but that said… Do we really want a repeat of the GWB years that the Republican candidate is sure to give us?
I don’t have any firm answers to any of this… but I know that I can’t vote for a Democrat who may have underlying motives to how his government will rule.
September 4th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Well I simply cannot agree with the stance you are taking on this Randall. I completely agree with callie on this. There is plenty of good news coming out of Iraq, and a lot of that is coming from soldiers who’ve fought there.
It’s just too simple to toss out the mindset that this is all George Bush’s fault, we shouldn’t be there, let’s get out tomorrow. Yes, we were all deceived. Yes, we might have been hasty. But as I’ve stated numerous times elsewhere, Congress, most democrats included, approved of this action, and they’ve been running from this fact ever since.
Despite all of Bush’s blunders and miscalculations, the violence in Iraq is decreasing, oil profits are going to the republic instead of a sadistic thug and his cronies, terrorist organizations have to find other places to train and plan, and religious sects and tribes are debating upcoming elections. This cannot be described as anything other than a success and a vast improvement over the regime that was there before. But you’ll never hear about this from any democrat because their main focus on Iraq is for our failure. Most will give you some sort of half hearted blather about how they support the troops, but do not support their mission. They will never see the hypocritical nature of their sentiments because a soldier’s duty is to kill the enemy and destroy their ability to make war, not to sit on their ass and bitch about their dissatisfaction with their commanders or the plan of action.
The rest of my feelings on Iraq can be summed up nicely in an article by Christopher Hitchens in Slate. And we all know what an empty headed deluded right-wing sympathizer Mr. Hichens is.
http://www.slate.com/id/2197007/
September 4th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Randall and rushfan,
I’ve skimmed a bit, and might have missed the point somewhere, but I should like to point out the quite commonly expressed viewpoint based on observation that the war in Iraq may actually have consolidated fundamentalism and given it greater focus, to the greater risk of our peaceful and oblivious citizens in their home towns (including my own family).
Soldiers fighting and winning wars. Proud of the cause? British tommies fought and suffered beyond comprehension (alongside comrades of other nations) during WW1. They won. They were disgusted by the futility and pointlessness of that barbarous industrial slaughter. The feeling ran so deep and long that an Oxford Union debate as late as 1933 voted heavily in favour of the motion ‘This House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country’. For them, patriotism had indeed, and literally, become the last refuge of scoudrels. Businessmen and profiteers. A familiar ring? Cowards? Six years later Oxford joined up as a man to fight a cause that everyone was willing to die for and was proud to have won. Against the vicious, obscene Nazi racist war machine. *This House* did fight alongside King and Country AGAINST tyranny.
I had an old uncle who joined up in 1915 at not quite 16 (he lied about his age). He survived WW1. He won the highest medal any non-officer can other then the VC. He actually fought to remain alive and defend those comrades he loved and cared for. He was wounded and partially lost control of his bladder. After the war, when returning late at night from work, he was arrested for pissing in the middle of a forest miles from habitation. The court ignored the plea of his war wound and found him guilty of an indecent act. A young woman who had been caught short at the same time two miles away was next up. The newspapers printed their names together as having committed an indecent act. That was for his wife and family and neighbours to read. I’m sure that story could be matched by many returned veterans of wars, particularly embarrassing, failed wars everyone wants to forget quickly. As a young man I was on active armed National Service in a terrorist situation on behalf of my country. A grateful (socialist) goivernment rewards me by freezing my pension at its original minimal base level because I do not live in England and to uprate it *would cost the taxpayer too much*. (Note, I represent a considerable net saving for the British welfare services.) Talk to me about heroes and patriotism and dying proudly for one’s country.
Down here (South America) at least, America has been losing the war for hearts and minds steadily over a good period now. Chile would not support the war in Iraq. Anti-Americanism (i.e. *official* America) is perhaps as strong as it has been since the days when brutal dictators were propped up to stave off communism.
September 4th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Bucslim: And while you’re “winning” the war in Iraq, the war that you were manipulated and out right deceived into joining, my Soldiers are dying in Afghanistan. Where you should have been in the first place. The UN has stated that the terrorists in Afghanistan are both better equipped and better organized than the resistance in Iraq. The Taliban, the ones that George W. Bush lied to you about, the ones that were not in Iraq until after the American invasion. Yup, great job winning the war. Too bad you didn’t use your military might to eradicate the real threat, not the one that involves big business and oil.
September 4th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Re my 384.
Hope all those *points* in my first sentence add point to the comment. I’d hate it to be pointless.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:20 am
callie:
“Oh so if we were in Afghanistan, you would suddenly become pro-war?”
Are you not listening, callie? I have said TIME and TIME again that the real war WAS in Afghanistan. Nobody should be “pro-war,” per se, but yes, I was ALWAYS in favor of prosecuting THAT war, against the Taliban and Al Qaeda–THE PEOPLE THAT ATTACKED US.
I mean, what is this bullshit? Where have I not SAID this?
“You would join up on the side of Buc, Rush, and myself?”
Hey doofus! I’ve got news for you. I’ve no doubt we’re also on the same side when it comes to many things. Why the hell would this be different? What are you trying to say, and pin me with?
“Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?”
Uh, clearly, moron, you think this is the case. Equally clearly, you’re dead wrong. About a lot of things, as it happens.
“And you’re damn right if I’m ever called upon I’d go serve.”
Convenient to say, not easy to do.
“Did I sign up? No, because I’m quite little and would probably just get in the way on the front lines,”
Uh huh.
Look, the point is this shouldn’t be about impugning people for going or not going. That’s not a valid basis for argument. It is IRRELEVANT. About the only thing you can say reasonably is that if someone is super-gung-ho for war, then they themselves should be prepared to go. That’s an old saw, we’ve heard it a million times. There’s truth in it.
But beyond that, drop this shit. It isn’t what this argument is about.
“You tout your military background as proof of patriotism,”
NO. WRONG. I “tout” my FAMILY’S military background simply in DEFENSE of people who IMPUGN my patriotism, etc. Big difference. And the reason this is done is because 99.9% of the time, the people shooting their mouth off at me about this are people who NEVER served in combat themselves and have had NO immediate relatives who served in combat. It happens every time. It’s a common pattern. People with no knowledge of war, either personal or inherited, are EVER the first to be the cheerleaders for it, and the first to impugn the patriotism of OTHERS when they oppose war or criticize it.
“yet seem to have a deep hatred of this country”
Oh I do? And from what statements of mine did you draw this brilliant conclusion? Where’s your proof of this, your evidence?
AGAIN… common and shallow tactic of the brain-dead self-righteous right wing… accusing others who disagree with their fucked up worldview of “hating” their own country.
So cliched it ought to embarrass you to use it, Callie.
“and most of the people in it”
Well there you’re getting closer to the truth. You’re right, I don’t like a LOT of my “fellow Americans.”
“except for your daughters, your neighbor Mike, and your hot co-ed’s.”
I got no problem with this. Though my base of friends and people I admire IS considerably broader than just my neighbor Mike.
“Let’s say your boy gets elected. Let’s say he dies. ( I know it’s a long shot, but it’s entirely possible. Obama could drop just as easy as McCain) Biden is now President of the US. Psssst….Biden voted FOR THE WAR. Now what?”
Piss poor debating tactic, callie. This isn’t some litmus test about who opposed the war when. I wouldn’t care if OBAMA had supported the war originally. We have only two choices in an election, and no matter what, Obama is the superior choice BY FAR over McCain, who hasn’t YET learned that the war was wrong and a huge mistake.
AND, of course, there’s much more to it than the war. McCain stands for a dozen other things, at least, that amount to four more years of the same godawful shit we’ve suffered under the last EIGHT years with Bush.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Including probably, I fear, basic indifference to global climate issues except for mealy-mouthed lip-service, unless corporate profits will benefit succulently.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:43 am
bucslim:
“Well I simply cannot agree with the stance you are taking on this Randall. I completely agree with callie on this.”
I’m not surprised. I’m sorry man, but with you and I being about the same age, and discussing matters with you again and again, I’ve long since drawn the conclusion that you stopped *thinking* about your politics long ago. You clicked yourself into a political slot and you’re staying there, with no hope of being dislodged, and logic, facts, evidence, and changes in the world be damned. That’s where you’ll stay.
That’s wrong. Dead wrong. It’s called polarization and close-mindedness. It’s what we, when we were young, used to rail at the hippies and old school ultra-lefties about. That they were polarized and glued to out-of-date and illogical stances that ignored that the world had changed and that some of their experiments weren’t working. *They* ignored the evidence before their very eyes. *They* thought that Marxism was the wave of the future and that our values were to be laughed at. We were their grandkids, children, and younger brothers and sisters and we opposed them because we knew they’d been proven wrong and that the world had progressed beyond them.
But here you’re doing the same thing THEY did. You’re clinging to a worldview that’s rigid and you won’t change it—damned if I know why, because you seem smart enough. But I can *guess* why.
“There is plenty of good news coming out of Iraq,”
Where is the RELEVANCY of this? I don’t care if the war had gone GREAT from the very beginning and the Iraqis had freakin’ PARADES for us every day! It’s IRRELEVANT. The war was WRONG and a mistake and a DIVERSION from where our focus SHOULD have been.
WINNING a war doesn’t make it “right,” bucslim. It just ends it. And I remind you, the “plenty of good news” you’re touting isn’t what you’re playing it up to me. You’re making it sound like all is now hunky dory over there. In fact it’s not, and all there’s been is a reduction in the HUGE amounts of violence.
“It’s just too simple to toss out the mindset that this is all George Bush’s fault,”
Why? He is the president. IN PARTICULAR in regards to matters of foreign policy, the responsibility ends with him. That’s tradition and simple fact. It was, in the end, HIS decision to support the neo-con idiocy about Iraq, and to go to war there when the war in Afghanistan hadn’t even been won yet.
“Congress, most democrats included, approved of this action, and they’ve been running from this fact ever since.”
What’s your POINT about this? No shit, Congress voted for it. And? So? That makes it right NOW? Did that EVER make it right? Did it ever make it the SMART thing to do?
NO, to all of these questions. Your point is irrelevant. I don’t even know what it is, to be frank.
“Despite all of Bush’s blunders and miscalculations, the violence in Iraq is decreasing,”
and again, this is IRRELEVANT.
“oil profits are going to the republic instead of a sadistic thug and his cronies, terrorist organizations have to find other places to train and plan,”
Wrong on both counts. A) it STILL looks, to the rest of the world, like we went to war for self-aggrandizement and for control of oil. True or not, looks *matter* in the world. And this is still how it looks–like imperial America acting in its own selfish interests. And with no real *point* to the war, that perception, however incorrect it MAY be, remains. B) I can’t believe you can say this about the terrorists… Iraq became and still is a MAGNET for them. AND the very people who attacked us are not only still there in the region but are still operating and to some extent still in power in Afghanistan.
Every time you say stuff like this, it’s like you’re living in a dream world… of Sean Hannity’s and Rush Limbaugh’s invention.
“This cannot be described as anything other than a success and a vast improvement over the regime that was there before.”
And WHAT did that accomplish for US? Was it WORTH the price we paid?
And again, you’re being ridiculously rosy. Hatreds and in-fighting continue in Iraq. Unabated. Slowed, yes. But for a LONG overdue modest reduction in violence… you’re proclaiming some kind of victory? And you refuse to acknowledge how ABSURD that is?
“But you’ll never hear about this from any democrat because their main focus on Iraq is for our failure.”
Because it has BEEN a failure. A pointless, wasteful, unnecessary failure. All those resources and men should have been devoted to fighting the REAL enemy in Afghanistan. NOT in a country that had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.
September 4th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Let me get this straight. You are a grown man who is old enough to be my father telling me I’m supposed to be “embarassed” about my “cliched” arguments while in the same post you resort to calling me a moron and a doofus? Really?
While we’re on the subject of poor debating:
“Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?”
Uh, clearly, moron, you think this is the case. Equally clearly, you’re dead wrong.
First of all, the first part of that statement doesn’t need to be written at all. Yes, clearly I DO think that is the case, otherwise I never would have typed it. I have a dog, I don’t need a parrot. Secondly, how is it clear that I’m wrong? Unless you’re holed up in a small private conservative university (which I highly doubt) there’s a GOOD chance your school, like a large percentage of college campuses across the US, has a liberal stance on many things. Third, “dead wrong.” Really? My thinking your college is probably liberal is a life or death thing? I’m still breathing, Randall. You have a bit more flair for the dramatic than me, but it doesn’t mean you’re any better a debator.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
It was, in the end, HIS decision to support the neo-con idiocy about Iraq, and to go to war there when the war in Afghanistan hadn’t even been won yet.
Actually, it was congress who voted for it in the end. They passed it. Dems included. Back to seventh grade civics with you.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Also (sorry, I tried to stop that last one from posting to add this in) we DO have troops in Afghanistan. We aren’t ignoring it by any means.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I just need to get this in here.
When 9/11 happened, I was in my office at the university. A friend in Texas called me (or was it chatted me? I can’t recall now) and, knowing I was from New York, told me to check the news–something was going on in NYC. “A plane crashed into the World Trade Center.” I figured, weird, but okay… and so I told a couple colleagues and we went down the hall and flicked on a TV in an empty classroom… and for the next few hours we all sat and watched it happen.
We didn’t know then who did it, but of course it was obvious that it was organized terrorism. And in the ensuing days we found out who was responsible (except for the conspiracy nuts–they think Bush and the Illuminati were responsible).
I had personal thoughts going on at that time which I won’t share, because this isn’t about me. But I will say that I was deeply angry. I was also deeply troubled. I had little confidence that the Bush administration would handle the situation well. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
At any rate, I wanted the Taliban CRUSHED. I wanted Bin Laden hunted down like the miserable piece of garbage he is, along with all of his lieutants. I wanted and still want him to pay for what he had done. I wanted his deluded and repugnant followers punished or killed. I wanted to see the Taliban and hate-mongering assholes like them wiped from the face of the earth. I still do.
But what happened? We can witness what happened. The Taliban and Bin Laden are still there. Al Qaeda still exists. This is a failure and betrayal of *monumental* proportions.
Iraq instead became the focus. For no good reason. For an idiotic, unrealistic plot to “bring democracy to the Middle East,” devised by the very kind of elitist intellectuals people here are railing against… except those intellectuals were arrogant neo-conservatives.
And like good sheep that some of you are, you ignore the facts of all this and wave the flag like you’ve been taught to do, and proclaim admiration for a moron in the White House who managed to turn a situation where we had almost the ENTIRE world’s sympathy and support into a situation where we have almost the entire world’s distrust and antipathy.
I am deeply angered and offended to my core that Bush not only let that opportunity slip out of his hands but that he practically pushed it away. And deeply angered that the REAL enemies here have YET to be fully vanquished and crushed the way they SHOULD have been. Instead, what did we get? A dog and pony show which would have been laughable had it not cost so much in American blood and resources.
The yahoos here will call this “anti-American.” Well they show their true colors when they do so. THAT is the kind of attitude that makes me fearful for the state of our society and the state of our democracy. It takes an informed and responsible citizenry to keep both going. But flag waving sheep make for tyrannies, not healthy societies or healthy democracies.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Callie:
“Actually, it was congress who voted for it in the end. They passed it. Dems included. Back to seventh grade civics with you.”
Again, callie, you’re more interested in making an arcane political POINT of this (illogical as it is) rather than face it straight and be honest about it.
You think you’re making some grand maneuver in pointing out that congress was complicit in the war in Iraq. But it’s IRRELEVANT. I DON’T CARE. I DON’T CARE IF EVERYONE IN THE US VOTED FOR IT, it was still wrong and a huge blunder. ALL THAT MATTERS NOW is that we have a choice between four MORE years of the same shit, not only with Iraq but with a hundred other things, and someone else who opposes the war AND wants to fix the gross mistakes made by the Bush administration in every OTHER regard.
Seveth grade civics? You need to find some critical thinking skills, PERIOD.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Randall – I’m finished debating this with you. I’m sick and tired of your constant juvenile ‘oneupsmanship.’ You keep telling me how closed minded I am and ignore your own pigheadedness. Time and time again I state my opinion based upon the facts as I see them and you go off on some stupid bullshit laden rant essentially making me the love child of Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter. And yet you yourself are as every bit closed minded on this topic as you suppose I am. You ignore the facts and make up shit about me that isn’t true. It’s pointless to keep arguing facts with an insufferable know it all. I’m pissing off so you win.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Callie, Buc, Rush: I do not mean to try to speak for Randall (I actually disagree with him more than I agree with him), but he is correct in a lot of the things he is saying. Our original focus was to find Al Qaeda and destroy them…in Afghanistan. We started out good enough and then basically just said “as long as we’re in the neighborhood”…and started a new war two countries away. The war in Iraq was NOT based on 9/11. It was based on an unfinished job from two decades ago.
I know Randall has some diplomacy issues but if you can get past the personal attacks and really use your critical thinking, you’ll see he is pretty much dead-on here.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
I personally think we can handle a Black U.S president. I am “young” as my parents say and since I do not label myself as a Democrate or a Republican I am whats wrong with the country. I personally think people voting for a “party” and not the right person for the job is the problem. Who cares if they are black, white, man, woman, old, young, Democrate, Republican. The issues they stand on are the important reasons to vote. I may not know a lot about politics but I know how to make up myu own mind.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
“…we DO have troops in Afghanistan. We aren’t ignoring it by any means.”
The absurd falsity of this statement is absolutely mind blowing. I can only conlude from it that you are not only a child in age, but also in temperament and intellect.
There are countless military officers and analysts, and members of former administrations both Republican and Democrat, who disagree with you. Every bit of evidence we have disagrees with you. The current Secretary of Defense disagrees with you.
The number of troops and the resources devoted to Afghanistan have ALWAYS been a FRACTION of what was devoted to Iraq. And still is. EVERY authority on this, regardless of political stance (except for Bush apologists and idiotic pundits) is in FULL AGREEMENT that we have neglected the war in Afghanistan and that we have allowed the Taliban repeatedly to regroup. Moreoever, Al Qaeda and Bin Laden himself are still active in the region and have managed to stage attacks on allied troops again and again, when the fact is the Taliban and Al Qaeda should have been CRUSHED there, years ago.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
trojan_man:
Thank you. I know we disagree a lot of the time on political/social issues, but here you see, yes, that we both, you and I, are using our grey matter. Others, sadly, are not.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
One of the biggest differences between Democrats and Republicans is that Republicans believe Democrats to be wrong, whereas Democrats believe Republicans to be evil.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
bucslim:
I can do nothing but shrug and say “whatever” to you. So be it.
But one last thing:
“You ignore the facts”
I would challenge you to point out to me one SINGLE “fact” that I have ignored. One.
And something else. You have always come back at me and hit me with this crap about calling you something you’re not and pinning you with labels. Well sorry, but it’s bullshit. Your words and your stances speak for themselves, pal. *I* don’t label you. You do.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Callie:
And again, this is simply a “debate” to you, is it? I would advise you to take your responsibility as a citizen of this country more seriously than that.
As for “quality” of debate, you have yet to make a single point that refutes anything I have said, either in the first place or in response to you. THAT, Callie, is poor debating skills.
Cheap shots about “liberal universities” aren’t examples of strong debating talents, callie. They’re examples of a mind that’s got no place else to go with its arguments but into irrelevant cliche.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
If a candidate as smart as Barack Obama comes along, we should all vote for him no matter what race he is.
Some people support Obama simply because he is black. Some people don’t support him simply because he is black. I support him simply because he is a smart man.
September 4th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
“I DON’T CARE. I DON’T CARE IF EVERYONE IN THE US VOTED FOR IT, it was still wrong and a huge blunder”
you’ve just proven you only have your own selfish opinion to expound on. “I don’t care if it was a completely legal democratic decision. I dont agree with it so it’s obviously wrong” No Randall. You pride yourself on using facts and thats exactly what I was doing. Congress voted. Majority won. We went to war. Fact, fact, FACT. You thinking it was wrong? Not fact.
I’d also like to go back to this because it’s important to me.
“And the reason this is done is because 99.9% of the time, the people shooting their mouth off at me about this are people who NEVER served in combat themselves and have had NO immediate relatives who served in combat.”
Well..you’ve never served either, and I have had family who’s served it this war and in previous wars, so I will continue to shoot my mouth off because I’m in your .1% of people who are apparently allowed to do so. Thanks for the permission.
September 4th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
And again, this is simply a “debate” to you, is it? I would advise you to take your responsibility as a citizen of this country more seriously than that.
Um…what is this to you? Do you think the candidates are reading this closely? That John will see this and just drop out of the race? Are you under the impression that you’ve changed anyone’s mind on this forum? If anything, you’ve served to make my convictions stronger. I was born with an elephant in my heart just as sure as your were born with a stick up your ass.
I take my responsibility as a citizen quite seriously. I turned 23 less than a week ago and have a damn good grip on politics, culture, and despite what you think I’m actually very smart and graduated with honors a semester early. I’ve voted in every election, both national and local, that I’ve been eligible for, I recycle, and I volunteer at my local animal shelter. I also engage in healthy political debates online because I enjoy them.
..Did it mean more to you than it did to me Randall? I apologize for the heartbreak.
September 4th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
callie:
“you’ve just proven you only have your own selfish opinion to expound on.”
Hardly. It’s proved nothing of the kind. Majority vote doesn’t mean the majority is RIGHT, callie. THAT is seventh grade civics.
Again, I am hardly a voice in the wilderness on this issue. Bush has a 20% approval rating and his rating for the prosecution of the war is no better. So if you’re trying to make this into a debate about the efficacy of democracy, I’d suggest you check out EVERY single poll taken on the issue for the last three years. And, of course, we’ll see the results of all this in a couple months. If Obama is elected, as I believe he will be, you’ll have your democratic decision on the legacy of George Bush and his party.
My point was that this question doesn’t turn on what Congress did or didn’t do before the war began. It turns on what we’re going to do to FIX it, and who WILL fix it or let it go on as it has, and perhaps do worse.
September 4th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
callie:
“Um…what is this to you?”
It is NOT about cute debating tricks and oneupsmanship, or counting coup on an opponent. It’s about truth, facts, intelligence and what is right. You, on the other hand, have been playing games, and nothing else.
“I was born with an elephant in my heart just as sure as your were born with a stick up your ass.”
Well, as you see, putting together cute, but utterly irrelevant rhetorical jabs are clearly more important to you than THINKING about the question and FACING it.
And to go beyond this, you don’t even know me. You know nothing of my family history except what I’ve already mentioned. In point of fact my family were and still are Republicans. I myself was a card-carrying conservative Republican from the time I could vote in the early 80s until the mid 90s. The difference between us is, I have a brain and a conscience and can examine questions with critical thinking skills which you obviously don’t yet possess. I’d advise you to grow up and seek them out, or cultivate them.
I’m quite pleased that you vote and take your citizenship seriously, though it seems lacking to me thus far. It’s nice to hear that you volunteer and pitch in. And I don’t care if you want to be a right winger, that’s your prerogative.
But when you stop being HONEST and stop facing the hard questions with integrity and truthfulness, that’s when you’re wrong and behaving badly as a citizen. You want to vote for McCain, vote for him. But don’t lie about how great things have been under Bush and how the war has gone swimmingly. Find decent and honorable reasons for your stances–don’t hide behind propaganda and mindless dogma and rhetoric.
September 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Callie: Only one point you neglected to mention. Congress only voted to go to war after they were lied to and manipulated into it.
Spend an hour or two of your time and watch this. Then we’ll talk. Or of course don’t and prove yourself to be as closed minded as others I could name. Who of course wouldn’t bother either. Because they know everything.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/
September 4th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
So..now that I know what it’s NOT, care to answer my actual question and tell me what it IS? And I’m the one playing games. Yeah.
September 4th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
I myself was a card-carrying conservative Republican from the time I could vote in the early 80s until the mid 90s
oh my god you were?
September 4th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Callie,
When the (second) war against Iraq was first being mooted, I remember reading and watching on the TV plenty about something called weapons of mass destruction being the casus belli. We were assured this information was totally reliable and the product of the full force of U.S. national intelligence.
If that had convinced and worried any of your politicians as much as it did me at the time and I had been one of them, I would have voted to go into Iraq, even if I gad been a blazing left-wing commie.
But there were no WMD were there?
September 4th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
I myself was a card-carrying conservative Republican from the time I could vote in the early 80s until the mid 90s
Oh my god you were? I don’t think you’ve mentioned that YET! Or how proud you are that you were able to see past the conservative BS and become your own person/thinker/political entity.
I have a brain and a conscience and can examine questions with critical thinking skills which you obviously don’t yet possess. I’d advise you to grow up and seek them out, or cultivate them.
Where have I gone wrong except that our opinions differ? Do I come across as uneducated? Are my thoughts lacking in syntax and grammar skills? You’re proud of my volunteer work then turn around and tell me I have no conscience? Interesting.
Do you think that you know me based on some posts any better than I think I know you? You make arguments and cover them in verbal bile so thick I don’t feel like wading through to find what is sometimes a good, well thought out point. You have the gall to berate everyone who dares disagree with you as stupid, moronic, and apparently doofus-y. I compell you, just once, to make your arguement without insult or holier than thou attitude, and just engage in normal, healthy debate with someone. Yes, I do mean on here, not in real life with all your apparent real world friends.
September 4th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Sorry, Mom,
You said it already. Still, it doesn’t hurt to come another way from another observer of another nationality living in another part of the globe!
September 4th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Beware the majority. Just beware, note. In other words, be careful of accepting or believing anything simply because it’s majority approved.
Churchill and a few others warned against Hitler and the Nazis. *The majority* in Britain didn’t believe him and didn’t want to. They called him a warmonger who gloried in war and merely wanted another one for self-glorification. One of the biggest calumnies that has ever been put out by Britons against one of their own. Churchill was a deeply human man who detested war as inhuman. He simply knew he had a talent for conducting it rather than peacetime affairs.
When the majority is wrong, we often only survive because of the powerful, insistent and brave voices of the minority who eventually convince us of reality.
September 4th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
by that logic, all the people currently against the war (the majority) are not to be trusted. How about just standing up for what you think is right no matter which side of the fence you fall on.
September 4th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
ok, fine, i’ll be the big dummy dildo in the room (because eventhough it’ll be ignored, it’l’ still be read and all is in horrible horrible jest)
for just a moment here anyhow
and go back to the MILF
for just a moment anyhow here.
Ahh the MILF
As Mickey C is on Tee Vee
and the view shows THEM TWO in their mature and sexified smiling,”you our man! Mickey C!”
Is there something wrong with having two MILFS in the white house?
Mickey C da Man!
Got im self 2 MILFS
So sorry.
Had to.
it’s just for my own entertainment (?)
September 4th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Callie, (415),
or is it callow? Oh dear. I didn’t ask you to prove Randall was correct about the need to improve your logic, deduction and argumentative powers.
Watch my lips, watch them very carefully, because I chose my words here deliberately. Did my first paragraph in any way state or imply “don’t trust the (i.e. any) majority”?
“beware, v.i. & t. Be cautious, take heed.”
“trust,(as) v.t. & i. Firm belief in the honesty, veracity, justice, strength of a person or thing. Person ot thing confided in. Reliance of truth of statement, etc. without examination.”
Since those two words appear to be synonymous in meaning to you, I suggest you go away and take a lesson in English comprehension and then return to the forum. I’m being neither patronising or intellectually snobby. I would expect reasonably educated pre-university upper schoolchildren whose native tongue was English to know and understand the difference.
I hope you can now go back to 414 and appreciate exactly what I was explaining.
As for standing up for what you believe in. Good Grief. Fuck whether that’s exactly the same as eveyone else in the world (easy), or you are entirely alone (difficult, often requiring courageous strength of character, may even be risky). Do it. Or at least don’t go against it, since sometimes it may simply be too dangerous to support openly, unless you are prepared and willing to suffer the consequences.
That I cited Churchill as someone who did precisely that and you immediately called my point to question really does prove Randall, I fear.
By the way, please note the only personal *insult* I offered here was a slight tease on your name I couldn’t resist. Sorry. You’ve provided all the rest yourself.
September 4th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
368. segue
Alrighty then….
All I’m gonna say is..
In a world, ran by greedy old white men….greedy old white men will rule.
racist? no
sad? you bet
do I care? not so much, I’m still trying to pass school man.
later days, and read this http://www.cracked.com/article_16605_8-most-obnoxious-internet-commenters.html
make sure to read the political activist one, for that is what I feel most of the online political activist on here are, and everyone on the Does God Exist your view is a Mr. Science…. just read and you’ll get it…
-Kase
September 4th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
First: “making me the love child of Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter.” ::involuntary shudder:: Why, bucslim, did you have to put that image into my head?
Secondly: #400- Callie, I don’t have the political know-how, the time, the patience, or the fervor to keep up with the ongoing political debate. However, I will say that is easily the most assanine thing I’ve heard from you, if not on this whole list. And that includes the statement made by diogenes’ dildo. Did you get that from “The Red Book of Political Quips” featuring Rush Limbaugh? Stop painting people blue or red and making broad statements about them.
Thirdly: Anon, I’m a tad confused. As far as I know, my name wasn’t hijacked. Those statements above were made by me. I think I grouped you with badlist at some point; the statement I made about filtering voters based on current events was a snide comment, but I think I misread your original statement. I thought you had said something about 20s somethings being retarded, etc. etc. My n00bie head took offense ::sniff::
September 4th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
LOL @ Kase- this debate brought that article to mind several times.
September 4th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Cedestra, (419),
I don’t think I’m dreaming (or properly, nightmaring!). On a couple of sites you’ll find pointless references by me to numbered remarks by *Cedestra* that don’t exist (correction: no longer exist). The one I remember and have just checked is Nº 390 of the Animal Testing topic. You’ll see my second item: an enigmatic comment to *Cedestra* which actually absurdly refers to the same posting (390). The original 390 was silently removed, presumably by the site administrators.
A lot of nasty stuff was banging around at that moment, which happily appears to have been snuffed out, although I imagine the perpetrator(s) is/are still reading all this.
Perhaps the whole episode blew up and over whilst you were *off air*. I suggest you contact jfrater or Cyn to check. If I then prove to have been caught up in some terrible confusion I didn’t and don’t understand, let’s just drop the whole thing.
Assuming there is something behind it, I think you need to know, and would also be grateful for an acknowledgement to put my mind at rest.
Thanks and regards.
September 4th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Cedestra,
“I thought you had said something about 20s somethings being retarded”
Who ME?????? Some (check, many) of my best friends are 20-somethings! Retardation is a state of mind, not a physical (tree-ring) age!
September 5th, 2008 at 12:18 am
I’m personally not ready for “Obama”. Not that he is black, that has nothing to do with it. I personally do not like him. I think he is all bullshit. What makes me mad is that he is pretty popular with my generation, the 20-somethings…and the main reason being, because it’s “cool” to be for Obama.
Whenever I ask people around my age why they are going to vote for him, they never can give me a good answer…”Oh he will make the “CHANGE” this country needs.” Ok, idiot. If you pay attention to what he is offering this country and you really like what he stands for, then more power to ya! Everyone has the right to their choices and opinions. I just wish more people would make up their minds for themselves before deciding who should rule our country for the next 4 years. Just because he seems like a cool guy that can play basketball and such, does not mean he will be a good president.
I will be voting for McCain. He stands for what I believe in, and don’t get me wrong, ALL politicians are liars, cheaters, and bullshitters. I’m just voting for the lesser of two evils.
Back to the subject though, I think imo that most people in this country are fine with possibly having a black president. But there still are MANY people who are not cool with it. Pertaining particularly to the retired white male population.
Whatever happens, happens. I just hope whoever becomes our next president fixes our countries problems efficiently.
September 5th, 2008 at 5:27 am
first i must say i am canadian, and i am openly admitting to being a fence sitter on the race issue. the only race to me that is supreme.. is the human race. each race has their pros and cons and i guess you could say i hate them all equally (including my own race which is white). that being said… on to my point!
i am all for obama. he is the change americans need. i was watching his speech he did in colorado and i was totally impressed by everything he said. i especially liked how he didn’t exactly follow suit and attack the other candidates. what i like most about him, is the fact that he doesn’t seem to be in it for himself, he seems to be in it for his country. now i know there will be race riots.. the kkk will go nuts, and his chances of being assinated are very high, but i’m hoping americans see past that bullshit. after going through the last 8 years with that war loving idiot BUSH and having president after president do absolutly fuck all for their country i’m hoping americans will vote for a CHANGE. things aren’t working as they are now.. so it is time for a change. i feel he will do his best to change what he can while having the ability to accept the things he can’t. GO OBAMA
September 5th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Mickey: the change America needs is NOT a bigger government…and some of his policies are exactly that. Don’t just support him because he is not a Republican. No matter what you think, John McCain is NOT George W. Bush.
September 5th, 2008 at 11:09 am
I wouldn’t trust anyone who comes from the Chicago political machine no matter what color they are.
September 5th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Anon: I responded on the animal testing list. It seems someone has been using my alias: I hadn’t posted to that list in a very long time, if I ever had. I’ve been very heated on the science fiction list and posting occasionally to this one, but not that much. I agree with Jamie; ad hominem attacks only make you look stupid. I try to make my posts slightly reserved because I just can’t sink my all into arguing with people I’ve never met. Seems a waste of time. I used to work myself into a lather whenever I was ganked (killed) on World of Warcraft (damn you, Alliance gnome rogues, damn you!!!), but I got over it and really stopped putting so much energy into it.
I find my politics/ideas don’t agree with rushfan, bucslim, and usually kiwiboi, but I find all of them mature and well thought-out people. Randall and I have similar views, but I don’t agree with the name calling (but agree that sometimes it just has to be done). Same with SlickWilly, although he’s generally more cheerful, and segue and Mom242.
I think you, Anon, and I have similar ways of thinking and being, so I was confused at this (quote in a quote): “badlist,
“To be honest i really dont care who these people vote for as long as they educate themselves first as to what each of the candidates stands for.”
Never mind the 20 somethings. Never mind the party preference. ¿Pass an exam on knowledge of the issues and the candidates before you’re allowed to vote? Wow, That’d really thin them out.”
If you meant generally, then yeah, I’d like that. That would be good.
For some reason I took that as you’d be thinning out the 20-somethings. It’s not holding as strong in my mind as before, but I can see how it can be taken both ways. I thought you were hurting my feelings as a 26-year-old
September 5th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Before I say this, I want to note that I am not talking about Obama here, just a random black candidate.
It depends. If the person in particular is seen as one who won’t be for all of the US, only their particular race, then no. If the person running is seen as for all the people of the US, then yes. The same applies for any race/sex/religion/etc, but candidates from the different “minority” groups seem to be pushed toward forwarding their own group ahead of everyone else. Racism flows in all directions and I don’t think most of the US will vote for someone who is seen as favoring special rights for any individual groups over others.
Like many others, I have issues with Obama’s policies, not any physical trait he has. Thomas Sowell or Walter Williams would get my vote in a heart-beat because they fit my policy stances. I still believe Condi Rice would make a great President, even if her time as Secretary of State has not been as good as I thought it would be. And I believe most of America is like me, they vote on the issues, not physical traits.
But I will throw a caveat in there that actually plays to the “minority” candidate. Most of us want something other than a white male to be in the White House. We want the White House to look like America. So we have a tendency to actually give more leeway to a minority candidate on certain things and get more excited about them than a white male candidate who is exactly the same. Hillary Clinton sis not draw more voters because she is female, but they were more vocal about their support. Obama is not getting more votes because he is black, but his supporters are louder about defending him.
September 5th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
418. Kase, I read http://www.cracked.com/article…..nters.html
I read *ALL* of it. It was funny, disturbing, and all too true. I’ve noticed the numbers of spammers, the folks who show up and post one or two nasty or meaningless posts, then disappear into the cosmos.
Well, okay.
For the most part they really do no harm. They just spout off, because they can, and then go find someone else to bother.
BFD.
They’re mostly kids. They’re bored (the first sign of a weak personality and a poor mentality). They can’t come up with anything more original to do. Again, BFD.
Oh, and btw, Kase, I’m female, *not* a dude. Hard to tell here, I know. I just really hate being called “dude”. I think it’s a generational thing.
September 5th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
…that’s why I called that random, two-word poster on the fantsy books list a “ninja”.
September 5th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Cedestra, (427),
Thanks for your long and careful reply. I found your other one across on Animal Testing and briefly acknowledged there.
Thinking about it, you were also lodged at the back of my mind as one of the people who fitted into what I might call (but none too seriously!) my *like-mindeds*, here. Mind you, agreement and disagreement with anyone can vary interestingly from topic to topic, even allowing for broad trends. Your placement is borne out by your own list above, which coincides pretty well with mine. There are valued co-incidental thinkers and highly respected *opponents*. Then come all the rest, a great range grading from people just as well-informed, but who almost seem to be speaking a different language. (At times they’re close to being exclusively cultural- or generational-plus-jargon, as per the *dude* comment of segue in 429). Right down in the pits sink the mercifully limited and deleted e-scum. E-scum is probably a bad metaphor, since scum at least floats, and this stuff is the stinking, lowermost, anaerobic crud! For that reason I was confused by your *hi-jacker* (just as you were about my 20-something-itis) and trying to wring some sense out.
Yup, I think I understand how Randall is Randall though. I’m very slow to anger. Yet I’ve been trying to contain my sometime seething frustration at one or two opponents on LV (reasons for that reaction are varied and complex), and only managing with difficulty at times. They’ve managed to set my mind in Randall mode. I stop short because I want to win or block them with cold logic, not offer the chance of an *escape route*.
I do always try to be careful with my wording and sense, so am (a) sorry you thought I was attacking your age group, and (b) glad that was sorted out. Every time people post up about *old white males* here, my hackles rise, especially as I like to kid myself my values and mental flexibility are the exact reverse of what they intend! Why can’t they just put SOME old white males? It’s not the *old* that gets me either, its the crap that goes with it. Ageism? Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.
September 5th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
When one votes, he has to wonder, “What do I really want America to shape into?”. Then, he has to vote for the one who is at his level/type of thinking. America has become so corrupt today, because so many corrupt people want to vote for someone who has their ideals. They think, “Oooooh! Less taxes!”. They only look at what they want to. Candidates count on this, and once they are in office, they start to take over. Rinse and repeat, and you have corrupt’-ness’ all over the place. America was way better than it is now! People weren’t so manipulative back then, and trusted one another.
September 5th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
I don’t know if we are ready for Barack Obama OR John McCain.
It would be choosing the lesser of the two evils, if you could call it that. It’s more like, choosing an equal evil!
September 5th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
rushfan- #317- Obama’s the only one in a position to bring this country out of the depths because he’s 1 of 2 candidates for presidency, the other one favoring the same actions that sent us into this hellhole. McCain makes jokes about bombing Iran. You wanna do that? Then pick a major American city you want wiped off the map. Not only does this piece of shit WANT to start ANOTHER war, he thinks it’s FUNNY. If McCain/Palin *shudder* gets elected, may God have mercy on our souls.
September 6th, 2008 at 2:13 am
I think it’s sad that you have a thread on if America is ready for a black president. Being in my thirties (and also living in the south), I think the majority of everyone I know is more interested on having a president who can properly run the nation. More important than your skin color is how you plan on combating rising energy prices, relieving over taxation, improving education and boosting the dollar.
September 6th, 2008 at 10:32 am
OH i love how you “open minded libs” will call everyone from the south an uneducated redneck and go by the stereotype that every republican is a rich old fat white guy who is behind the times. Do your homework and quit taking in the liberal press like jonestown kool-aid. McCain may not be the best guy in the world but he is more qualified, more experienced and more bipartisan than Obama.
I don’t care of he is black white or purple. Obama has never written a single bill or law the whole time he has been a state or US senator. So when it comes down to it he has never done the job he was elected for.
Would you let a doctor with he same amount of experience operate on one of your kids.
I have to give Obama credit he did win a Grammy for reading a book about himself.
Come on people quit try to be trendy and use your heads
September 6th, 2008 at 11:48 am
436. Chewie, from who do you get your information? Or do you just make it up?
Obama has written or sponsored over 100 bills in the Senate. 100!
Do you see a difference between zero and 100?
September 6th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
436—>437. Not only that, but Randall also posted several bills above that he co-wrote or sponsored. Go do your homework and stop spewing shit you’ve heard from a couple of people. That’s called misinformation and you just feel into the trap.
Fantastic how you pick a couple of random selections and assume we’re all “open minded liberals”. Several people on this list, actually, are not liberals (had you taken then time to properly educate yourself on the list).
I actually have never met someone from the South/Texas who wasn’t educated enough to listen and hold an intellectual conversation about politics. Actually, the person who I disliked discussing politics the most with was a dittohead from rural Maine. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
“Would you let a doctor with he same amount of experience operate on one of your kids.” Well, if I had the choice between a fairly competent surgeon with a great head nurse, or a surgeon about the croak and a shaky head nurse, yes.
September 6th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
delpsecies (#435): You do realize that the very best way to boost the dollar is to stop spending a trillion dollars a year on war? Who do you think will end the conflict in Iraq fastest? Who has pledged the most resources to alternate energy sources? Who has the least ties to big business and the oil industry? Answer those questions before you cast your vote.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:42 am
America has the world’s craziest system for electing the President. Forget how good (or bad) the candidates are, the one with the most campaign money has a huge advantage. Last time round an idiot came second in number of votes, but still snatched the job with the help of his daddy! And you let him get away with it. Your system makes it almost impossible for any decent, honest and ethical person to win. You deserve a Robert Mugabe.
September 8th, 2008 at 5:06 am
i think that if obama gets elected, he will get assasinated. Shitty to say, but i really think so.
September 8th, 2008 at 5:08 am
and does everyone realize how little power the president actuall has???? everyone says so and so will stop the war or they will do this or that when all they can really do is suggest ideas. its the senators and the house that make the rules and laws and decisions, so think about that before you vote. All the president is is a face for america internationally and a guy to blame when shit hits the fan!
September 8th, 2008 at 5:27 am
“Your View: Is the US Ready for a Black President?”
Not THIS black President.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:22 am
longball:
In fact, the presidency has been gaining in power steadily since WWII. For a time, after Watergate, the power of the Executive branch was curtailed a bit, but Bush has proven that, with a complicit congress, the presidency is capable of damn near anything.
We should be worried about this, but apparently few people are. Certainly none on the right. They forget that someday we might get a president from the left who does the things Bush has done to run roughshod over the constitution… then, of course, they’ll balk.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Randall -
I can agree with that, I but all in all the president is on the short end when it comes to being a powerhouse in the big trifecta (Exec, Leg, and Jud Branches). I also think that congress will not be as complacent this term as they were the last few terms because of what has occured, the roughriding. But i really don’t care either way, America is not ready for a black president. Vote for McCain in 08!!!
September 8th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Of corse America is ready for a black president, but NOT Obama. He is a racist, and has extremely poor judgement, and extremely inexperienced. His wife is an idiot, his friend is a terrorist, his pastor is a racist, and his campain manager is corrupt. The only reason he got away with this stuff is because he is black.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Dan:
Your rock is getting cold. Go craw back under it. Moron.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
If McCain was black as well, I would still vote for him.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
As a non American citizen I hope you do not mind my input of opinion on this highly topical debate. Due to the extensive coverage of the American elections which we receive in the United Kingdom I have come to the conclusion that Barrack Obama is the best man for the job and if I were indeed a United States citizen I would vote for this amazing man in a second, I believe that America is a great country, the majority of people there are friendly, un-biased and welcoming to everyone regardless of colour, race or gender. I wish Mr Obama all the best in his election campaign and sincerely hope that Americans vote for him in the election. Thanks x
September 9th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
By chance I happened to glance through one of the June issues of our rather right-wing Chilean major newspaper, El Mercurio, today. It had a page feature on who might be better econcomically for Chile and South America of the two presidential candidates. The result was fairly inconclusive. Both candidates consider the region important.
However, it pointed out that Obama’s proposed economic policy was generally far more highly regarded both by economists and the public.
It also noted that McCain proposed to leave present agreements with South America exactly as they were, with the addition of maximum encouragement of free trade. Obama, on the other hand, was concerned to re-negotiate where possible to tie in with better working conditions and rights for Latin Americans.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Oh please. That’s just ridiculous.
Anyways all I know is that I’m voting for Obama this fall. We’ll have to see how America does, won’t we?
September 10th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
wow Randall, you are really mature. Grow up, don’t call people names just because you cannot defend Obama and his horrible judgement and lack of experience in foreign and economic policy.
September 11th, 2008 at 4:02 am
well i can’t exactly support any of the candidates since i’m not american, and yes that is true they don’t need a bigger government, they need a smarter leader…and from what i seen of him he seems to be very intelligent. comparing intelligence to bush…a brick would be smarter!! and yes i know mccain isn’t bush…i don’t think anyone could be him (thank fucking god). my point was simply that americans haven’t been thinking straight these last few elections. they voted for bush twice…they need someone who doesn’t have the book upside down and his head in ass. as i said obama gave me the impression that he wasn’t in it for himself…but for his country. i feel he truely and sincierly(sp) wants to change things. sure mccain probably does too.. but i didn’t get the same feeling from him when i watched his speech. on a personal level i don’t follow politics really..politics to me is like american idol- only worth watching the auditions..because chances are the one you want wont win and if he does he makes one album and then he’s gone from the spotlight- same thing to me because it’s fun to watch the candidates during their campaigne run, then the one you want either wont win or if he does he’ll go strong for a little bit and then fuck up.
September 11th, 2008 at 5:17 am
Dan:
Listen pinhead, I have no NEED to defend Obama. YOU have a deep need to defend your idiotic statements about him. Where do you get off saying the ridiculously absurd and offensive things you said about him? Just HOW is he a “racist”? Where’s your evidence for this? And just how does he have “extremely poor judgement”? I demand you support that unbelievably stupid statement, particularly given the MONUMENTALLY poor judgement shown by John McCain in picking Sarah Palin for the VP spot. And I’m sick to death of hearing this bullshit about Obama being “extremely inexperienced.” All you’re doing is parroting what you’ve heard from moronic radio and TV talk shows… do you even KNOW anything about Obama’s record? Clearly not, if you can call him “extremely inexperienced” without batting an eye.
And just HOW is Obama’s wife “an idiot” as you so idiotically called her? Where do you get THAT? And what friend of his is a “terrorist”? Again, more nonsense you’ve swallowed from the distorting and swiftboating right-wing side of the media. And the issue of Obama’s pastor was settled long ago, Dan… get with the program. But if you want to have a debate about THAT, I’d be glad to take you on.
Finally, just HOW is Obama’s campain manager “corrupt”? Again, defend this statement and give supporting EVIDENCE, or shut the hell up AND, as I suggested, go crawl back under the bigoted, fringe-element, conspiracy-theory-toting right wing rock you oozed out from under.
September 11th, 2008 at 5:48 am
mickey:
“…americans haven’t been thinking straight these last few elections.”
You got that right, Mickey.
See, the big problem with much of the middle class and lower class (or working class if you like) of this country (the US) is that they repeatedly vote against their own self-interest. The Republican party over the last eight years (but really it started long before) has clearly shown how it is unbreakably tied to big business and that it’s true agenda lies in securing more and more favors and breaks to large corporations, big oil, and the like. But it fools the working classes of this country with a lot of smoke and mirrors about it, distracting them with patriotic bullshit and promises of “tending the economy” and “keeping taxes low,” neither of which is really true, when you look closely at the facts.
But the Republicans *have* had that great trick up their sleeves, which is that they learned once and for all, under Reagan, that the way to win over the vast middle and lower classes of this country was to play up to their populism. The Republicans didn’t use to do that, prior to Reagan… populism was back then more successfully exploited by the Democrats. But somewhere along the line they (the Republicans) figured it out, and began to steal it away… and then, in due course, a great chunk of the American people came to believe the Republican line, which continually says that “your taxes are too high, and the Democrats want to raise them even more” like a broken record. Sometimes, yes, our taxes HAVE been too high, and sometimes Dems have wanted to raise them. But it’s rarely been as simple as that. Even now, no one’s paying attention to the fact that Obama’s plan raises taxes on NO ONE in the middle or lower classes — only on the very rich, and on big business… and this ONLY to bring us back to more fair ground, because the ultra-rich in this country have been reaping benefit after benefit for YEARS now while A) the gulf between rich and poor has grown dangerously large and B) the middle and lower classes have been paying more and more.
Yet still, a lot of them can’t get the wax out of their ears or the mud out of their heads and LISTEN or THINK or PAY ATTENTION to the facts. We’ve had eight years of Republican rule and nothing but scandal, gigantic favors to the ultra-rich and big corporations, (witness the latest scandal with our Dept. of the Interior and Big Oil), a huge failure in oversight, a ruined economy and a housing market in one of the biggest messes since WWII. AND still there’s a big segment of this population who thinks McCain is the answer, when it’s HIS party that’s done all this, and worse, the last eight years. Not to mention a DISASTROUS foreign policy which McCain wholeheartedly supported… but because of lumpen flag-waving nonsense, a big number of people still think HE’S better equipped to handle foreign matters than Obama, who at every turn has shown superior judgment. It boggles the mind.
But it doesn’t really, because as I say, all this is the result of a well-oiled tactic played up by the right-wing since the 80s—to always fall back on appealing to the baser instincts of the American people and to fool them by constantly telling them they’re paying too many taxes and that the Democrats want to raise them even more. And it still works today despite the great economic success of the 90s, driven by a *Democratic* administration. If the tactic EVER had any truth in it (certainly at one time it had some) it certainly doesn’t now. But people still fall for it.
September 11th, 2008 at 8:22 am
i will not vote for a man who turned from his pastor and church because of what the media thinks….coward!
September 11th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Randall: What you’ve described in terms of people voting against their own econmic interests happened here in Australia for 11 years, and was also achieved through populist rhetoric. The lower-middle and working class folk voted for a government whose main goal was to minimist worker’s rights and to shift to on economically ‘rational’ society, thus causing these voters no end of harm. This was achieved through the rhetoric of fear to great success.
The other problem is that in Australia, the two major parties are meant to be ideological opposites, but are now very similar. People still hang on to the belief that this is not so. From my understanding, somthing very similar has occurred in the US in terms of the majority of domestic policies that do not carry religious overtones espused by both parties (i.e. universal healthcare = socialism = political death, and won’t be touched; welfare = bad, and gun ownership = a right)… Please let me know if I’m wrong?
September 11th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
*minimise
September 11th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Man, spelling errors abound in the post: this is what happens with no sleep
September 11th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
critique:
No, you’re not really wrong. Over the last 30 years, the two parties have grown more alike in terms of ideology. This meant that both parties moved further to the right than they had previously been, so there was more overlap in the center.
September 13th, 2008 at 7:08 am
you know what i don’t get is…… this man is half white, and was raised by a white mom. why is it all people see is a black man. i know this is off subject, but halle berry gets critized for her roles with white man, when her mother is white. i just don’t get this at all. yes i heard the saying we all bleed the same blood, but if our mothers and grandfathers don’t like a person because of his skin color, well….the devil will not have a hard time collecting souls. i feel not hate for people like this, but sorry…..cause hell is forever.
September 13th, 2008 at 7:52 am
for people who say i will not vote, because you don’t think either one is quified, let me remind you of something. bush vs kerry. i live in the south, and around that time i heard alot if rednecks say (let bush finish this mess) do you know when that first four year term was up, bush had manage to mess the economy up, that would take at least 20 years to repair , but these dumb redneck was sitting back here in the south hoping he was going to fix this mess, but things got worst. my fellow american we are in recession, and if you don’t know what that mean you will find it close to the word depression. there is a reasoning rednecks in the south vote republican one: alot of them are poor, and they don’t give a damn about the economy, they have been poor their whole life, and on the filp side rich rednecks are smart enough to know keeping a republican in offices will benefit them, but what i don’t get is the middle class rednecks they are getting hit hard. yet these people voted for bush,and will vote for mccain. i have to say if you chose not to vote because no one is qualified in your veiw, then when your mom, and dad have lost most of the things they have worked for. i’m not feeling sorry cause that’s what you get, you made the choice to do nothing. this is american and we are suppose to be leaders. four more years of wars, and this will be a third world country. lol it’s funny now, but soon you will be crying. i promise. so go ahead don’t vote, or vote for a warmonger. i’m sure the rednecks of the south would be prond of the non voters.
September 13th, 2008 at 9:42 am
liquidfire:
What you are talking about (if I understand you correctly) is what I’ve talked about here before–people of the lower and middle classes voting against their own best interests. They’ve done it time and time again over the last thirty years, fooled by a Republican party that plays them like cellos at the philharmonic.
But we’ll see. Maybe finally people are waking up. Depends on who wins this election, then we’ll know.
September 13th, 2008 at 10:44 am
RANDALL FOR PRESIDENT……..OUR NEW AMERICAN GENERATION
September 13th, 2008 at 11:04 am
456. longball: /sigh You won’t vote for a man who, when learning how he differed from what his pastor was saying, turned away? I’m sure some part of the reasoning behind him leaving his church, however large or small, was political, but would you stand behind a man, a symbol, who said said many things you didn’t agree with? And is that your only reason? Church loyalty usurps all other qualities in a president? Sarah Palin *also* switched her churches, from a Pentacostal church. So, you have no major ticket to go with.
September 13th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
I don’t know, tell me when a black man runs for presidency, considering Obama is more white than he is black.
September 13th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Yes, I do…just not this one. This has nothing to do with melanin count. Simply put, those policies Obama has voiced are pure socialism. Those he’s danced around are ill-defined, superficial and outright. All would be disastrous for our country.
September 14th, 2008 at 9:08 am
why do people always mix politics with religion? where do you find religion? did obama get his political advise from that church, and was obama there every sunday? and if he was…. did he have to agree with every single thing that pastor said? i wonder if every people in america did, every single thing their pastor did. i wonder what this world would be like? you have had a president for eight years that was suppose to be a religious man, he have lied to you, and me over, and over again. i wonder was he following his pastors advise to lie. what will it take for you to open your eyes, like i said before recession leads to depression.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Sign up to fight ageism in the UK
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/low-wage/
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/low-wage/
September 16th, 2008 at 1:38 am
I FEAR McCain and Palin! Believers with power elected by stupid, white men – what a dangerous cocktail!
Not only the US, but the whole world is ready for Obama. He is SOOO important for the future of our little planet.
I think that everybody on Earth should be allowed to vote. I am from Denmark, and the guy who’s in charge in the White House has enormous effect on my daily life. Without Bush for instance, my country wouldn’t be engaged in this war based on lies, lies, lies.
Here in Europe we are all behind Obama. McCain wil fuck it all up even more.
September 17th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Are we ready for a black President, YES, BUT not Obama.
Are we ready for McCain and Palin, NO NO NO NO.
What we need is TRUE separation of church and state and candidates that are not right wing religious fundamentalists.
September 17th, 2008 at 9:13 am
AEd:
So what do you propose, if not Obama?
September 17th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Yeah we are ready for a black president, but not this socialist…
September 17th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Team:
Lay out your EVIDENCE that Obama is a socialist or has a socialist agenda.
What is it? Where is it?
September 17th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
1. Universal Healthcare- that is a socialist program. those who can pay will and those who can’t get it for free.
2. Redistribution of Wealth – taking from the rich to give to the poor
3. Follower of Saul Alinsky.
4. Democrat
Thats 4, Randall. Looks like a socialist agenda to me.
September 17th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
OBAMA IN ‘08!!!!!
September 17th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
WHY DON’T WE JUST KILL THE POOR, AND KEEP THE RICH HAPPY
September 17th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
THEN WE WANT WORRY ABOUT A SOCIALIST AGENDA
September 17th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Do anyone know why the depression started?
September 18th, 2008 at 5:52 am
not That JB:
1. Obama’s healthcare plan is NOT some version of Britain’s National Health. You’re deluded and mistaken.
But beyond that–what do you SUGGEST for people who are without healthcare? Hmmmmm? Let them swing? I was without healthcare for several months, when I was adjuncting and between regular positions. It was no fun, I assure you. There was no solution except to wait it out and hope for the best. But go ahead smart-ass, tell me that people in such positions should just be allowed to suffer.
2. Obama is NOT about “taking from the rich to give to the poor.” IN FACT what his tax plan calls for is giving a TAX CUT to the middle class and bringing FAIRNESS back to taxation of the ultra-rich and corporations–who for the LAST EIGHT YEARS have been given break after break and benefit after benefit–and look at our economy now. You have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.
But I’d love to ask you this question. Are YOU yourself rich? I HIGHLY doubt it. Why so keen, then, to defend people who wouldn’t lift a finger to defend YOUR measely paycheck? Why? Because you’re a deluded conservative idiot who’s bought into the moronic bill of goods you’ve been sold.
3. Yup, Saul Alinsky was an influence on Obama. On Hillary Clinton too. Do you believe SHE’S a socialist? I’m a New Yorker–she’s been my senator for years now. I’ve seen NO evidence that she’s a socialist or is pushing a socialist agenda. Though perhaps you would find anyone who isn’t a rabid laissez faire capitalist to be a socialist.
4. And of course the democrat thing is ridiculous. Your argument (it’s barely worth calling it that) falls apart on the flimsy nothingness you presented. I can’t even say “nice try,” JB.
September 18th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Here’s my prediction on the election, focusing on the polls presented at usatoday.com. It’s still early in the election and, of course, these are just polls, but here’s where I think we will see our interests lie:
First, forget Florida. It’s no longer contested- they’re all for McCain-Palin. Our battle states to pay strong attention to are Pennsylvania and Ohio. If either candidate wins both, it’s over. The back-up states to look at will be Nevada, Colorado, and New Mexico. I think, at this point, Nevada will go for McCain and Colorado and New Mexico will go for Barack (the polls support this at this time).
Here’s the nauseating thought: if McCain gets Nevada, Ohio, and Colorado and Obama gets Pennsylvania and New Mexico, we will have a TIE, 269-269. Ugh. My call, at this point in time, though, is 278-260 Obama. (I would have called McCain last week in line with the polls.)
September 18th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Correction, I had it set incorrectly. 273-265 (Nevada & Ohio to R, Penn, Colo, and NM to D).
September 19th, 2008 at 6:43 am
obama 08 for life!!!!
September 19th, 2008 at 9:22 am
LMAO @ Randall… You are funny…
September 21st, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I can only speak for myself, but I AM ready for a black president.
September 21st, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Another 4 years of bush no thanks I’ll Take 4 years of a So Called Inexperienced Leader as You So Call Obama.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:06 am
O-B-A-M-A!!!!
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:14 am
Krazy611, I would much rather have another four years of Bush than a 2nd term of Jimmy Carter…
The Marxist Obama will be very bad for this country…
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:22 am
Team:
You are, quite frankly, an idiot. Unequivocally, without the slightest bit of doubt.
“The MARXIST Obama?” I see. So he’s a “marxist” now. Sure.
Stop breaking the prozacs in half, Team. That might help.
Here we are, facing one of the greatest economic debacles of the last 50+ years… ALL OF WHICH IS THE DOING of Republicans and their over-the-top insistence on a “look-the-other-way, the market will correct itself” philosophy with little or no oversight or regulation… AND WE ARE PAYING THE PRICE FOR IT… and now, WHO IS IT who is calling for near-socialistic buy-outs and controls over that same market? Bush and the Republicans. The hypocrisy is so thick it could only be cut with a meat cleaver and would have to be slow-cooked for hours before you could bite into it.
“The Marxist Obama.” What is it, Team? You don’t want your ultra rich buddies making over $250,000 a year to pay a few more taxes? Because they’re the only ones who will, under Obama’s plan. The rest of us falling under that threshold get a tax CUT. And if you don’t believe me, just open your goddamn eyes and look around ANYWHERE at any accredited news site which will VERIFY this.
But I highly doubt you even KNOW anyone making that kind of scratch. Which is the amusing thing—that middle-class or even working class dupes (such as yourself, probably) will ACTUALLY sit here and protest the election of a man who is out to help THEM… they will actually protest him on behalf of the wealthy…. a wealthy class, moreover, who wouldn’t lift a finger to help YOU get YOUR taxes lowered–because they HAVEN’T, EVER, regardless of administration or time period.
Or could it be, Team, that you don’t like his health care plan? EVEN THOUGH it is, in fact, slightly more conservative than Hillary Clinton’s? Don’t like the idea, perhaps, Team, of people actually being HELPED when they need it, actually being able to have healthcare in the RICHEST NATION ON THE PLANET? When every other civilized, developed nation has SOME kind of health plan for their citizens in need…. but oh no, not the US… that would be “marxist.”
Sure.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:22 am
Like I said before randall, you sure are funny if you believe all that…
Thanks for making my Tuesday enjoyable…
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:04 am
BTW Randall…
When Barack Obama, a/k/a “The Messiah,” ran for the Illinois state senate in 1996 he sought the endorsement of he New Party and used New Party members as campaign volunteers. In case you don’t know – and you probably don’t – the New Party was a Marxist organization made up largely of former members of the Democratic Socialists of America and ACORN. Vote for him anyway. After all, he’s for change and he’s black. What more could you ask?
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:04 am
And that above was from Neal Boortz…
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:51 am
Team:
Okay, *I’M* “funny” because I’m simply reporting the FACTS about Obama… whereas YOU are doing nothing but pulling conspiracy theories out of your ass?
Oh, but YOU have the “proof” that Obama is secretly a marxist who will bring the country down, don’t you? Never mind that ALL the major news agencies AND the Republican Party–who would drool to get their hands on evidence that Obama was actually some kind of “marxist”—never mind that THEY haven’t heard any of this and aren’t reporting it—because they must be all ignorant dupes, right? Right Team?
Get out of here, whackjob. And take your ignorant, racist, pinheaded views with you. Do us all a favor and stay away from the polls on election day. It’s because of assholes like you that our democracy grows closer to the precipice of failure every day.
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 am
Ah and there is the typical Democrat, resort to name calling and calling someone a racist, ignorant and other various names…
Maybe you should be the one that needs to stay home on election day…
You probably think Global Warming is man-made as well, don’t you…
Oh well… If the Messiah does win, I hope that we don’t become the United Socialists of America, because you can’t get anyone more left than the Messiah… Because taking from the rich and redistributing it to the poor is not the solution to right this ship that the Democratic congress has already put us in…
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:57 am
Well, Team just told us another interesting tidbit about himself.
Besides being racist, he doesn’t believe man has had a hand in global climate change.
I wonder who left the asylum unlocked the day he got out?
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:37 am
Team:
Okay, moron. Sure. The Democratic Congress put us in this mess. Yeah. And your proof of this is where? Where’s the evidence to back up this asinine claim? Or, for that matter, ANY of your asinine claims?
See, calling you “ignorant” wasn’t an example of “name-calling,” Team. It was quite simply a totally accurate descriptive of what you are.
I note, parenthetically, that you utterly failed to answer what I had to say in regards to your idiocy about Obama being a “marxist.” You’re also then, clearly, an intellectual coward.
I, by the way, am not a democrat, asshole. What *you* are is plainly evident, and we can only hope that there are painfully few of you out there in the world.
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:52 am
Jesus I feel like I am talking to torridjoe…
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Randall, you are wasting your time and energy. I know it’s yours to waste, but this guy will *never* get it, no matter what you say.
Take a deep breath, step back, and let it go. Some people deserve to drown in their own crap.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Team:
I have no idea who “torridjoe” is, but instead of just posting your BS here pell-mell, why don’t you RESPOND to me, and disprove what I’ve said? Why don’t you offer up an argument to support your ridiculous views, instead of just evading and hiding from what I’ve said to you?
Again, because you’re an intellectual coward.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
LOL @ segue…
I am the one that doesn’t get it and you are the ones that wants the socialist and marxist America…
Like I would post this about how the Democrats created the financial crisis (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0), but then because it isn’t a link to the liberal media sites (MSNBC, CNN and other crappy news outlets), it wouldn’t be a fact in your walnut size minds…
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
segue:
Oh, I know… but I have no false hopes that this jerk will “get it.” Rather, my intent is to shut him up and show him up for the ignorant bigot that he is.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Good luck in shutting me up… I know the truth and what you are spewing isn’t even close to it…
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Maybe eventually I will get bored reading your drivel… But until then, it still just amazes me that anyone would want to be a Democrat…
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Team:
You’re unbelievable. One skewed, biased op-ed doesn’t make for truth, though no doubt it does in your selective, cherry-picking version of reality. Funny that NO OTHER major media sources have gone on this angle—but of course, yes, “team,” they’re all part of the great “liberal media conspiracy” aren’t they?
Sure.
Pathetic.
At any rate, blaming this ENTIRE DEBACLE on one un-passed law is LAUGHABLE. EVERY major economist I’ve checked out on this ties the current situation to years of Republican insistence on looking the other way, on deregulation and a total lack of oversight. The essence of this mess is greed, greed, and more greed, unchecked and unmanaged.
You can pick your shadows to hide in, “team,” but hiding from reality and the truth is a foolish thing to do.
But oh yes… I want a “socialist, marxist America.” Sure.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:19 pm
team:
And how old are you, I wonder? I suspect I’m arguing with some thickheaded teenager…
But I doubt you’d tell the truth in any event.
But, “team,” if you have so much truth to trumpet, then show evidence. Give proof. Don’t just cherry-pick op-eds… because for every ONE you produce that supports even remotely your trailer park knee-jerk idiocy, I could produce TWENTY that would contradict it.
INTELLIGENCE, “team,” is being able to recognize when one’s beliefs, however cherished, are failing, and need re-evaluation. Yours have failed. Face up to it like a man and begin some self-examination. Because the person who is so certain of their wisdom, as you are claiming to be, is always the person who knows the least and will be the first to fall flat on his or her face.
September 24th, 2008 at 7:30 am
Here´s an interesting article from realclearpolitics.com about the race issue in the campaign.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/the_media_play_the_race_card_o.html
I think it makes some really good points – specifically that there´s a lot more going on in this campaign than race or racism. I´ve commented before in this thread that the if Obama loses, I don´t think it will be a comment on America´s readyness for a black president, I think it will be a comment on Obama himself: his policies and campaign, and also a comment on McCain as well. Racism is a small part of this election.
September 24th, 2008 at 7:40 am
@500. Team:
http://polaris.moviments.net:8000/
Has little to do, but I think you should take a look. At least to see how the crisis is seen in other places.
To recover the topic
Even Swarzenager was asked for this question. And he answered that had some doubts about it. So I don’t think is that much stupid the question. (You may say he’s not the best indicated to talk about that but at least some of you may had voted for him)
September 26th, 2008 at 7:12 am
Alright, there are some real knuckleheads up there…
Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he would be the first =2 0 Arab-American President, not the first black President. Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs.. Barack Hussein Obama’s father was only 12..5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro). From….and for more….go to…..
http://www..arcadeathome.com/newsboy.phtml?Barack_Hussein_Obama_-_Arab-American,_only_6..25%_African
learn the facts and liberals, quit resorting to tempertantrums when facts override your “reasoning”….
By the way, Bill Clinton is technically MORE black than Obama…seriously, look that one up….
Lastly, Randall, your a joke brother, grow up and quit with the name calling…your so attached to a “man of change” your not seeing what Obama is all about, 5 billion to the U.N. of taxpayers money!? Get real, this guy is so wrong for America that we should change our name to South Canada…
September 26th, 2008 at 7:42 am
iamscience:
*I’m a joke*? *I’M* a joke? This from a bigoted asshole who actually breaks down someone’s ethnicity to DECIMAL POINTS of percentage—AND clearly to smear Obama as…. *GASP*…. AN ARAB! And ah yes, by such a person I’m told to “grow up.” Uh huh.
The presumption, also, of lecturing a TOTAL STRANGER on how they’re “so attached to a ‘man of change’…” etc. etc. ad nauseum — meanwhile, you haven’t a REAL clue as to why I support Obama, nor how I am, in fact, the farthest you can get from a blindly credulous voter.
You’re not even worth the argument on this. The very idea of bringing up some imaginary “5 billion dollars” is laughable when the country, at the behest of a Repubican administration, is now facing the necessity of pumping NEARLY A TRILLION into a failed economy.
You’re simply a wretched, repugnant voice of emptiness, “iamscience.”
September 26th, 2008 at 8:02 am
…point proven, thanks for that Randall. Maybe time to change your diapers. I can see you now just so angry, so driven to hate, congratulations boss….
His ethnecity is broken down there bigshot, cause thats what the article is about, Obama isnt really all that black. It wouldnt matter that much if people were more informed or perhaps OPEN to being more informed.
As expected, and stated, liberals love to pass judgement on people who dont buy agree with them, i love America!
In the end, you contradicted yourself and did in fact waste your time on the argument, and will after this post as well.
See you then….
September 26th, 2008 at 9:28 am
iamscience:
The funny thing is, “iamscience” (and again, do change the name—it’s offensively absurd for a creationist to even hint that they have something to do with science) that regardless of my use of insults (insults which, by the way, you sorely deserve) I still come off as well-spoken, erudite, and coherent. Whereas you come off as shrill, moronic, clumsy and illiterate, what with your poorly-constructed sentences (and thoughts), lack of punctuation, and poor spelling. Image is everything, “iamscience,” particularly in your use of the language, and particularly when your words are all that’s speaking for you. *You,* thereby, come off sounding like an inbred hill-grazer.
Moreover, the pathetic use of a piss-poor shot like “time to change your diapers” is a clear indication that you’re A) not at all creative or inventive, and very likely quite thick in the head B) not at all funny or witty and C) quite lacking in taste, as anyone *with* taste would recognize that the use of wheezy old cliches of this nature (“time to change your diapers”) would compromise their standing severely with outside observers.
In short, you’re an uncouth mouth-breather who can’t even cough up a decent jibe, let alone a coherent, persuasive argument.
Now then… there was no “point proven” beyond the point that you are exactly as I’ve described you here. I am, yes, quite fed up with having to deal with moronic idiots such as yourself who A) oppose the candidacy of Obama for nonsensical, fictional reasons (most likely hiding racist and bigoted motivations, in fact) and B) attempt to undermine (on another thread) science by attacking (pathetically and ineffectively) evolution. It’s clear to anyone with a brain what you are, “iamscience,” so I feel no need to further justify myself. I have no patience with your kind and see no reason to indulge in said patience.
Again—it wasn’t the question of Obama’s ethnicity (the proper spelling of the word, by the way) that was the salient issue here, “iamscience.” It was your absurd and offensive precise little breakdown of it, to the decimal point. It quite simply made you sound the dull-witted redneck that you apparently are.
It’s also amusing (and amusingly incorrect) how you automatically assume I am a liberal. While I’m sure it would please your pinheaded, bigoted mind to so pigeonhole me, I can assure you that you have failed miserably. No, I am not a conservative Republican—though I once was. But neither am I a liberal.
What YOU are is all too evident.
I’d be interested to see how, in your convoluted, twisted mind, you felt I “contradicted myself.” Of course I did not, in the least, but it might offer me further amusement to hear your reasoning behind this. It certainly might afford amusement to others looking in who can recognize you for the dogmatic fool that you are. It’s always fun to watch big-mouths fall flat on their faces.
September 26th, 2008 at 10:40 am
…”It’s always fun to watch big-mouths fall flat on their faces.”
Me too, thnaks for the show brother.
Now, this is about a misconception and a huge one. I spent almost 9 years in college and work in D.C. (Northern Virginia) as an Astronomer. So here is what you presuppose to know about me…and cut on me for (thanks for helping me with my grammar, my wife does the same too – big help)
1. “you come off as shrill, moronic, clumsy and illiterate, what with your poorly-constructed sentences (and thoughts), lack of punctuation, and poor spelling”
2. “You,* thereby, come off sounding like an inbred hill-grazer”
3. “not at all creative or inventive, and very likely quite thick in the head”
4. “quite lacking in taste”
5. “not at all funny or witty”
6. “uncouth mouth-breather who can’t even cough up a decent jibe, let alone a coherent, persuasive argument.”
7. “moronic idiots such as yourself”
8. “hiding racist and bigoted motivations”
9. “dull-witted redneck that you apparently are”
10. “pinheaded, bigoted mind”
11. “convoluted, twisted mind”
12. “dogmatic fool”
So, im guessing your an english major? If thats the case, i guess you get an A for proper grammer and spelling, but come on brother, look at your mass of assumptions, its really quite scary, but I would expect no less, lol. Again, the issue is about if America is ready for a black president, I asserted, with fact, he’s really not all that black. I, also, am not going to vote for a guy based on his color as this article also assumes.
So as you flail about and scream and stomp your feet and just get angry at opposing views (and since your at it, scientific inaccuracies) I hope you have a good weekend. I really get worried sometimes about the state of people’s fortune telling gifts (because after reading statements 1-12, your a regular Miss Cleo). Remember, when you dish out talk like this, which is also so inaccurate and so widly manic, you should be able to calmly explain your ideas and opinions. I figured since your demanding so much from me at the least I can recommend for you is to just chill a bit.
Look your not going to change anyones mind with rethoric like your multiple rants above and sure your a regular Spelling Bee champion, this isnt an acedemic journal, who cares if im spelling “ethnicity” right or wrong, your picking apart things of no consequence, but if thats your angle, then so be it.
“insults which, by the way, you sorely deserve”
September 26th, 2008 at 11:48 am
“iamscience”
See my posts directed at you over in the creationist thread. I do not for a moment believe that you are actually an astronomer–but if by some bizarre chance you really are one, then you should be ashamed of yourself and of the piss-poor education you received.
Which was from where, I wonder? Liberty University perhaps?
And stop calling me “brother,” asshole.
The old trick you’re using now, of feigning reason and rationality when earlier you were called out on your bigotry, again falls flat.
The mere fact that you have completely misread this point of this thread (it is NOT that anyone will or should vote for Obama BECAUSE he is black) indicates that you simply aren’t that savvy or intelligent an individual, which is further supported by your left-handed invectives about “scientific inaccuracies” and the like. Further, yeah, “iamscience,” I wouldn’t expect some average shmoe to bother with grammar, spelling, and proper sentence structure—though it would always behoove them to do so—but again, I KNOW *real* scholars and scientists of several different disciplines, and they INVARIABLY express themselves much more professionally and thoughtfully than you have, either here or in the creationist thread.
If you really WERE in college for nine years, then I submit to you that you greatly wasted your money.
September 26th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Jesus Christ Randall, you really are just an angry bitter individual aren’t you…
September 26th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Team:
Angry that I have to deal with monumental stupidity; bitter that people such as you never learn, and that I and my family, children, and friends are forced to suffer the consequences when people like you get your way in this world.
September 26th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Does it really matter what colour Obama’s skin is? The point is that if he doesn’t get elected then there’s like a 1 in 3 chance we’re going to end up with President “Violent Lunatic” Palin within the next 5 years. Who wants that?
September 26th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
IAMSCIENCE, you obviously get all of your information from that font of knowledge, Rush “I am an IDIOT” Limbaugh.
Omaba’s father was Kenyan. Black, native Kenyan. NOT Arab. If his father were Arab, it wouldn’t make a whit’s worth of difference, but he wasn’t.
Maybe *your* father was intelligent. That didn’t matter, either, did it?
September 26th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Segue ~ As a loyal listener to Rush Limbaugh, I can assure you are misinformed. Might I recommend you listen to the show at least once before you make such a rediculous statement. Can I ask what are you basing that statement on anyway? He doesn’t speak of Obama’s ethnic background, trust me, there are plenty of legitimate policy issues to discuss about Obama without having to resort to such inanity.
September 26th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
rushfan, I actually regretted posting that as soon as I did. It was the idiot who posted I was angry at, not Mr. Limbaugh, whom I have listened to.
My apologies.
September 26th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Segue ~ Thanks for that.
There is just so much hostility towards Rush that I think is misguided, and I didn’t take you for one of those people. Trust me, I’m not a fan of IAMSCIENCE either.
September 26th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
…yeesh, talk about hostility. I’m guessing you folks are asking for a concession?
@segue, I apologize for having these facts straight. Now your right about the Kenyan connection, i didn’t dispute that (or get into what his cousins do and have did there, but that’s for another gladiator event), but your just going to have to bear with me and read the entire post. Follow the link. If not, its no skin off my back, though with all the insane anger here and the assuming and speculation…and name calling, i guess that can be taken figuratively. And I appreciate you joining the ranks of Randall and calling me names. Furthermore, when you get into honestly calling people who you dont agree with’s parents (father in my case) names, it speaks a good deal about where and whom you direct your “anger” or “hostility” at. But, see, watch this, I’m not going to call your parents anything, but, assuming I had, the wrath of Randall and his crew would swell up and accuse me of resorting to these tactics because I would obviously be, “losing” was it? so I would be the bad guy and the evil registered Independent that I am, how dare I right?
@ rushfan, sorry to lose your loyal following, I guess I started with a fan and lost it all in once ((laugh))
@ Randall, …”Angry that I have to deal with monumental stupidity; bitter that people such as you never learn, and that I and my family, children, and friends are forced to suffer the consequences when people like you get your way in this world.”
Agreed, in general terms though, I mean, no point in getting angry however, I’m glad to be in America, a place where you have obviously mastered the English language with such finesse and lean how to be an impeccable speller all the while calling people liars, (insert the 3 cuss words used above and elsewhere towards me here), bigots, red-necks, so on and etc, etc and blah blah blah whine cry, boo hoo….dude seriously, you can point and blame and cry and be the freaking victim here, but your a dime-a-dozen, down on his luck, better than the rest, everyday man. I seriously can’t be angry or mad or upset with you…brother…because truly, I feel for you, i truly do. And I really mean this man, good luck in whatever you do….
September 26th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
DO IT MEAN YOU ARE ANGRY, BECAUSE YOU DEFINE THINGS AS THEY ARE. OR BECAUSE THINGS ISN’T DEFINE AS YOU SEE.HMMMMMMMM
September 27th, 2008 at 1:54 am
@Randall… You procreated? God help us all…
@Chickensoup… No it doesn’t matter what the color of his skin is, but what does matter is his policies that would be bad for this country… I don’t care if he is black, white, pink, orange or any other color of the rainbow…
September 27th, 2008 at 9:14 am
IAMSCIENCE: “i didn’t dispute that (or get into what his cousins do and have did there, but that’s for another gladiator event)”
George W Bush’s grandfather got rich by trading with the Nazis during the Second World War. No-one seems particularly bothered by that, because the actions of his relatives have little to do with him.
Team – I agree with you. At the same time, I believe that another factor that should be taken into account is the issue about policies that would be bad for the world. I think that McCain and Palin being elected over Obama and Biden would be bad both for America and for the world at large.
September 28th, 2008 at 5:46 am
Well….
Obama’s cousin in Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya; It is the first widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. In fact his half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga’s follower. Obama interrupted his New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on the phone.
Obama’s cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers had burned Christians’ homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a Christian church where they took shelter.. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. like it or not,
But I like the bush nazi connection as well, nice, just a bit farther removed. This has a bit more to do with Obama than Bush’s grandfather trading with some nazi’s…but pick and choose huh?
Lastly, this is the U.S. elections Chickensoup, not the world elections. Countries worldwide dont consult us on who they elect and vote for and nor should we? So, no this factor does not need to be taken into consideration…at all.
As i mentioned before, I am a registered independent, I had been doing alot of searching to see who at the base would be the best for America, and seriously, after some of the absurd assertions and speculations and matter-of-fact statements, frankly, I can’t vote for a guy who’s supporters seem to mirror some of the crap seen above. I’m scarred – but for the sake of America, I hope this isnt a close race.
September 28th, 2008 at 7:32 am
525. IAMSCIENCE.
I had cousins running, still running, illegal moonshine stills in Tennessee.
Great-Uncles who took part in a historic massacre in Australia.
Ancestors who fought on both sides of the Revolutionary War.
500 ancestors who fought for the Confederacy, and 250 for the Union.
An uncle who worked for an off-track bookie.
Maternal ancestors who were transported to Australia from Ireland by the British, not as a “thank you gift” for good behavior.
Should you be afraid of me?
Should you be afraid of my ability to do any job for which I have the qualifications, based on the actions of my relations?
If your answer is yes, you need a reality check.
September 28th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Irregardless of who wins, I would just like to say how refreshing it was to see two candidates who could piece together an argument and never created their own adjectives? Neither of them were perfect, by any means, but it was comforting to know that the next president will have some means of intelligence and public speaking.
September 28th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
just a thought….the whole iraq thing. now let me get this right now, one of the reason saddam hussein was executed was because he killed lots of people right. i’m not going into detail on this, but i know you know the facts behind this. what if there was a law that said everyone who participated in the lynchings of the south doing the civl rights movement be bought to justice. now i wonder if those good old rebulicans are hung just like saddam hussein just what precentage of those votes will be in to south and i’m sure you know the precantage since some of you have broken obama race down to the science. anyway alot of you want be taking that trip to see old grandma, and grandpa in the south. lmao.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:52 am
iamscience:
You get called names because you are, quite simply, an ass who deserves it. Again, raking up all this nonsense about Obama’s apparent muslim “connections”—and that’s not supposed to be transparent fear-mongering and racism, is it? Noooooooo… of course not!
All this bullshit about Obama’s “cousins”—and what you trying to tell us, “iamscience”? Hmmmm? Why not out with it, instead of the implications?
A) I haven’t found any definitive proof that these guys ARE even related to Obama…. but…
B) So what if they are? What is meant by “cousin?” I have “cousins” in England, Calabria (Italy) and Greece that I’ve never seen or talked to. I know they exist, but that’s it. Jesus Christ, I haven’t even seen or talked to many of my cousins here in the States—I couldn’t even tell you all of their names. My situation is of course the norm, not unique.
C) How CAN Obama then be held responsible for or even said to be in sympathy with these “cousins”? Answer? HE CAN’T.
D) Any normal person would know this… so your point? Clearly you’re trying to smear Obama with veiled hints and innuendo. Yeah… you’re a class act, “iamscience.” Right up there with the morons in white robes and hoods.
And you expect to be lent legitimacy in this, and not be insulted because of it?
Which brings us to your incessant whining about MY treatment of you since you showed up here:
“all the while calling people liars, (insert the 3 cuss words used above and elsewhere towards me here), bigots, red-necks, so on and etc, etc and blah blah blah whine cry, boo hoo…”
The irony, of course, is that you repeatedly complain about how I’ve addressed you here—rather than simply taking it like a man and answering me back with some kind of logical argument… which both here and over at the Creationist thread you have UTTERLY FAILED TO DO. Of course this is to be expected; you have nothing to say. You’re simply an uninformed, ignorant bigot who thinks his ravings about Obama should be listened to. Meanwhile NOT ONE legitimate news source on either the right or the left is seriously reporting this bullshit about Obama that you’re peddling… and why? Because it’s a non-story. It’s simply character assassination by association, with a thin film of racism on it.
“dude seriously, you can point and blame and cry and be the freaking victim here,”
Laughably ironic coming from you. *I* played the victim? How so? YOU have played victim since you showed up here, repeatedly crying over being insulted and mocked, without once offering anything reasonable or logical for anyone to listen to beyond your nonsensical bullshit.
“but your a dime-a-dozen, down on his luck, better than the rest, everyday man.”
Funny. And bizarre. Was that some misquote from a bad song, perhaps? Because I can’t make heads or tails of it otherwise. I’m down on my luck? Hardly. I have a nice position at a major university (and not whatever back-of-matchbook institution YOU attended, if you in fact ever really did attend) make a nice living, have a nice career going, lots of great friends and beautiful, smart kids, and so on…. if that’s “down on my luck,” I’ll take it, pinhead.
And “better than the rest, everyday man”? Smoking something perhaps, “iamscience?”
Again, your incoherent babbling belies your claim that you are an astronomer/scientist. I don’t believe it for a moment. As I pointed out here and elsewhere–you don’t talk like one, you don’t address others like one, you don’t comport yourself like one. Not in the least. And no one with a proper education in science would believe the crap you believe NOR would they make the mistakes you’ve made.
“I seriously can’t be angry or mad or upset with you…brother…”
And I repeat. Don’t call me “brother.” It’s sickening.
“because truly, I feel for you, i truly do. And I really mean this man, good luck in whatever you do…”
Spare me.
What I wish for you is that you wake up out of your ignorance and bigotry, so that you can become a proper citizen of this country. Because right now you’re just part of the problem.
October 3rd, 2008 at 1:56 pm
it should never matter what color he is, only if he has the country’s best interests at heart and can be a good leader.
I think it’s ridiculous that people get on this thing and just sit on their high horses and start arguements with people over the stupidest stuff.
that’s why they’re called “OPINIONS” because everyone is entitled to have one. Jeez.
October 5th, 2008 at 1:20 am
It is irresponsible to think that a Negro can run the USA. Case closed.
October 5th, 2008 at 11:26 am
First of all he’s only half black. I wish the liberal media would stop portraying him as a underdog minority. Hes half caucasian with an million or 2 (0r 3) in the bank with a Harvard education. He wouldnt give two shits about anybody if it meant him losing the race. I really resent the fact that minorites are voting for him because he’s of ‘color.’ Im mexican and Im not voting for him because either way, we’re screwed. Politicians are going to say whatever they want to say JUST TO GET INTO OFFICE! Does anybody really think anythings gonna change dramatically because someone of ‘color’ is president? FUCK NO. It doesnt matter whose in power people the lower class and middle lower class is FUCKED either way.
October 5th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
532. nina_beretta: I rarely discourage anyone from voting, but I’ll make an exception in your case.
It’s exactly the low-information voter, like you, who tends to make poor decisions in the voting booth. What you need to do, nina_beretta, is get some *FACTS*, not just the dribble that’s being handed out by the ultra-right wing, Fox News, and the trash rags.
Information, nina_beretta, information!
Not knee-jerk reactionism based on lies and innuendos.
mutter-mutter-mutter
Just do everyone a favor and stay home on November 4.
October 5th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
…and, btw, I subsist on disability, so I’m not exactly from the upper-class here.
October 5th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
im not from the upper class either, “segue,” perhaps you shouldnt be so quick to judge who has or hasnt any information on what or who. I dont know you or your situation but I bet Obama or McCain dont give a shit. How about you, “segue” do everyone a favor and let everyone have an opinion without jumping outta your wheelchair or hopping off your cane or walker and stommping on people whose opinoins or views dont match your own. Kisses!
October 5th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
What kind of a question is that? It makes absolutely no difference what color a persons skin is.
October 5th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Jordan, I don’t think he means what you think he means. He doesn’t mean the presidency, he means America. I know it doesn’t matter that he’s black but there’s alot of folks out there who think it does matter what color skin he is and that’s what the question is essentially about.
October 5th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
nina_beretta, you still don’t get it.
I couldn’t care less what your opinion is. The bottom line is that your opinion is based on a lack of knowledge, rather than on a compilation of knowledge. I can, and do, honor opinions different from my own as long as those opinions are based on actual fact, not on manicure shop gossip and National Enquirer type trash rags.
I can tell from your writing that you’re quite young. I should cut you some slack for your age, and I will, but you really need to learn that not every person in the world is out to get you. Not everyone is your personal enemy.
One of the people I like best on this site, rushfan, is politically about 180 degrees opposite of me, but she and I both base our opinions on facts, and so we can both respect, and even support each other’s opinions! Actually, it’s not 180, it’s probably 90 degrees. I think we agree on a lot, but we disagree, too. The thing is, I know she always has absolute facts, real knowledge, to back-up her opinion. And I’m pretty sure she feels the same way about me.
You seem to make a big deal about my nick, to be uncomfortable with it.
Why?
Nearly everyone has one, and most people choose theirs for a reason. I chose mine for a reason.
Do you know what it means?
I’m using it as a metaphor for my life.
October 5th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
segue: I’d often wondered about your nickname. In classical music, it is used to mean “keep going” (ie from the end of one movement to the start of the next). Maybe that’s what you’re referring to.
October 5th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
astraya: You get the gold star! I chose the name to remind me that whatever life throws at me, and goodness knows its thrown everything but the kitchen sink, to keep on going, smoothly, without missing a beat.
October 6th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
okay okay…geeeeez i was just posting my opinoin like everyone else on here, im sorry if my views dont sit well with anyone else, but since everyone left their 2 cents on the sub i wanted too. “segue,” Im appreciate your commentary…no hard feelings…just wondering…how come you havent given anyone your 3 cents…?
October 7th, 2008 at 8:04 am
nina_beretta:
The point is, Nina.. DON’T post your opinion if it’s not BASED on anything—because then it isn’t really “opinion” at all, it’s just non-sensical blather.
In future, resist the temptation to share your thoughts until you’ve done the work to ensure that they have some intellectual support and logical reasoning as a foundation. Yours didn’t.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:17 am
541. nina_beretta, I did post my opinion about five hundred posts ago.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:18 am
whoa…chill out people. its just the internet. seriously…re read the FAQ. consider where you are. the intent of this site. and who you are ‘preaching’ to…
or is this all just self indulgent chest pounding, eh?
*insert rollz eyes smilie here*
step away from the computer for a bit…..
October 7th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
535. nina_beretta: Wow, I can understand that you are retarded and classless and may even be old enough to vote (fingers crossed on that one), but you need to leave. Seriously, I have not tolerance for bitches who say shit like that about people who frequent this site and has put forth nothing but a great image.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:31 am
As a black man if you asked me this question a year ago I would have said hell no.
On the other hand Bush as boned this nation so hard Americans are willing to give ANYTHING that is not Republican a chance.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
No. Nor do we need to sully the democratic system and elect a person based mainly on their race, as will be the case should Obama be elected. This country is not ready yet to decide based solely on qualifications.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Fortunately for the entire world, Lee #547, is a failed species of Americanus Douchebagus, soon to be extinct.
October 8th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
545. Cedestra, thank you.
October 8th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Glllleeee hhheee ooonnng!
October 9th, 2008 at 6:50 am
#531 willie please do us all a favor and kill yourself now you racist piece of shit.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Anyone watch McCain call us “My fellow prisoners” on Wednesday?
October 9th, 2008 at 10:31 am
549. segue: No problem. She actually made me ill from the statements about your condition. I may not have, but you handled yourself with class.
October 9th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Segue ~ I just read your kind comment regarding our differences of opinion. I feel the same way about you.
You are someone whose opinion I respect and whose life experiences I can appreciate. I must say, however, that the vibe from others who disagree with me politically can be quite dismissive and downright hateful. It accomplishes nothing to be partisan and close-minded and I am someone who thrives on political discussions but they’re hard to have online. Just because someone is slightly more eloquent in their commentary does not mean they are smarter or more informed or that their opinion is somehow more valid. Just because it’s unpopular to be a conservative on this site, I shouldn’t have to be afraid to voice my opinion because I’m in the minority.
October 9th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
rushfan, you should never have to be afraid to voice your opinion here, or anywhere. I understand your statement about the “vibe” though, and can understand the gag it might (metaphorically) place on your posts.
Don’t allow that to happen. It’s criminal.
October 9th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
rushfan: you are right – and I would hope that all people here (in particular regulars which I think is probably the case already) would be gracious enough to allow all points of view to be espoused! I for one love it
October 10th, 2008 at 8:54 am
554: You could be the Elizabeth Hasselback of listverse! Just kidding…that’s getting downright ugly. We have a good group of regulars that form good opinions and, for the most part, are well behaved. I consider anyone else to be trolls that deserve nothing more than a quick kick in the box.
You and I wouldn’t agree politically, but if you read a note on another list, I had said we were missing your opinion on this list. I think Anon or segue or someone else had pointed out that you were missing.
October 12th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
NO WAY IN H/E/L/L AM I OR ANYONE IN OUR FAMILY EVER VOTING FOR A BLACK MAN OR EVEN A HISPANIC. CAN YOU SAY REVERSE DISCRIMINATION? IT’S RUNS RAMPANT IN THEIR SOCIETY. I don’t care if I’m labeled a racist biggot. This is how I feel & I will not make apologies for my feelings. I just wonder how many others feel this way, but will never admit it until it’s time to ‘VOTE’? I pray that OBAMA NEVER gets his wish, because that means bad days ahead for all white people & hispanics as well.
October 12th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
#547 Lee? Just because your not a regular here doesn’t mean your opinion should be considered wrong. YOU ARE ENTITLED to YOUR OPINION. Hang in there.
Not a Regular, TG
October 12th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
girly, I’m just wondering what makes you think that bad days will be ahead for us?
I believe I am ready for a minority president, as are many others.
October 12th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I think I’m seeing something of an over reaction here, and I’d bet it has very little to do with race. It’s interesting. No one can be that angry out of the blue, and that it’s misdirected anger is practically in neon lights.
Makes one wonder.
October 12th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
OBAMA IN ‘08!!!!!!
October 12th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
OBAMA AND BIDEN IN ‘08!!!!!!
October 12th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Hey, let’s all cool down. I didn’t mean to upset your regulars’ applecart! I also need to mention
*****JOHN MCCAIN & SARAH PALIN IN ‘08***********YAHOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, Yeah & LET’S ALL HELP SARAH PALIN IN 2012!!!!! lol!
October 12th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
MT, I am going to tell you this because I like you (also, I agree with you).
The more exclamation marks one uses, the less powerful the statement.
Multiple exclamation marks are the sure sign of a diseased mind.
October 13th, 2008 at 3:32 am
565. segue
I don’t understand the connection. But then again, if my mind is diseased then I guess I wouldn’t. How do you feel about all caps?
!!!OBAMA IN “08!!!!
October 13th, 2008 at 5:41 am
girlymac:
Your doddering, confused, erratic old man and his brain-dead MILF of a running mate are going to lose and lose big in a month. And after that, idiots like you with your racist garbage will be further marginalized, as you so richly deserve.
October 13th, 2008 at 8:40 am
AGAIN, I say let’s just wait & see..You think he’s got it in the bag. Key word being, THINK!
October 13th, 2008 at 8:42 am
girlymac:
Yes, girly… key word being *I* THINK. YOU don’t.
October 13th, 2008 at 11:12 am
How nice to see LIBERALS left & right using their same tactics. No substance & if they can think of nothing else they go for the usual jugular. Insult the person they are speaking to. I mean to say that YOUR way is to flip off someone as YOU WALK AWAY! I’ve got no sadness in my heart when you ALL insult me. I just feel sympathy for all of your anger. I have only spoken/written my OPINION, yet you guys still insult…:-) lol!
October 13th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
girlymac:
No, girly… the fact simply is that you’re not worth the trouble. PLENTY of substance has been given on this thread in support of Obama. You’re invited to read through the comment list. But in any event, YOU have not given one iota of substance, yourself, with which to work with. All you did was pop up here, make a very brief (thankfully) racist tirade, and then you’ve popped back up with repeated one-liners that SAY NOTHING. Your only “opinion” amounted to racist garbage, and your statements since then have amounted to EXACLY ZIP.
So to repeat–you’re not worth the time or trouble. If you had something substantive or intelligent to say, you’d have said it by now—AND you wouldn’t have said what little you already HAVE said.
Simple as that.
October 13th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
566. MT : The “diseased mind” part is part of a joke, which obviously doesn’t work online without benefit of facial cues and voice inflection. Too bad. It’s really quite funny.
Use all the exclamation marks you want, MT, we all support Obama, and you may use my exclamation marks whenever I’m not using them myself.
K?
October 13th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Boo-Hoo! Mr. Randall thinks I’m a one liner..I only came onto this stupid ass site to f*uck with you IGNORANT ASSED LIBERALS! This was FUN, while it lasted!!
Get jobs and a Life Jerks! hahahaha, Boo-Hoo!
October 13th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
“Boo-Hoo! Mr. Randall thinks I’m a one liner..I only came onto this stupid ass site to f*uck with you IGNORANT ASSED LIBERALS! This was FUN, while it lasted!!
Get jobs and a Life Jerks! hahahaha, Boo-Hoo!”
The classic response of someone with too much space between their brain and skull casing. When someone calls you on being a douchenozzle, you pretend that is what you wanted everyone to think. Well, I have to say this, girlymac: you succeeded. We all think you are a douchenozzle. Congrats. Now get lost.
October 13th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Why doesn’t anyone care that Palin violated Alaska *ETHICS* laws? Shouldn’t this send up some red flags about her character? Or McCain’s judgement?? I would have expected the liberal media to be pounding this into the ground.
October 13th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
.572 Segue
I’m just messin’ with you S. My humor is a little dry in person and online it appeals to an even smaller audience.
Randall,
With idiots like girlyman on “their” side we can’t lose.
OBAMA/BIDEN IN ‘08!!!!!
October 14th, 2008 at 9:51 am
MT: Glad to know that.
See, though, in person, we would have been laughing our respective asses off. I’ll be sooooooooo glad when *everyone* is hooked up visually. My computer has a built-in camera (video & photo), but the next person has to have the same system…I want universal access!
October 14th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Oh yes, and, OBAMA 08!
October 14th, 2008 at 11:12 am
girlymac:
“Mr. Randall thinks I’m a one liner..”
A) No, I said your POSTS had amounted to little more than one-liners. You seem to have a poor grasp of the English language, girly. Were you perhaps a high school dropout?
“I only came onto this stupid ass site”
B) Well, to come onto a “stupid ass site” to waste one’s time repeatedly seems to me to be a uniquely “stupid ass” thing to do. I could think of a number of better ways of spending my time. Do you want help with that? Let’s see… what would some moron like you enjoy? Nascar perhaps? Isn’t that on?
“to f*uck with you”
C) Truly, only a clumsy idiot would attempt to type out the “truncated/censored” version of “fuck” and end up typing “f*uck.” Very good.
“IGNORANT ASSED LIBERALS! This was FUN, while it lasted!!”
D) Your sense of “fun” is, to say the least, infantile. Hmm. Nascar must NOT have been on.
“Get jobs and a Life Jerks! hahahaha, Boo-Hoo!”
E) Got both, thanks! And yours is… working the fryer at Arby’s, probably? Yes, probably.
October 14th, 2008 at 11:32 am
I haven’t popped into this one in awhile, but I needed to come and say that Randall, MT and Segue:
Though it’s difficult for me, I can respect your opinions. A large part of this is looking at my candidate and party and realizing the shortcomings of both, yet I still support them because I don’t agree a whit with the other party- and thats values and running this country well, not race- believes in. Please don’t let idiots like girlymac speak for conservatives everywhere. I know you guys are smart enough not to, but that needs to be said.
October 14th, 2008 at 11:43 am
add Iamscience to above..I don’t really want him on my side either.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…It’s hard being a young republican. I’m proud of it though
October 14th, 2008 at 11:57 am
I’m with Callie. Most of us are capable of exchanging ideas without insults.
October 14th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Callie and Rushfan:
But you see, both of you—this is another reason why I left the Republican party and walked away from conservatism (there were of course many other reasons as well). I one day discovered that people like us (if you don’t mind being lumped in with the then-conservative Randall from the 80s) were in a shrunken minority in the “movement,” and that it had fallen to mostly thugs (like, I’m sorry to say, Rush, your beloved Limbaugh–whom I used to in fact *kind of* like and listen to, way way back when, though I never fully got behind him–but also, more to the point, people like the wretched Sean Hannity and his ilk) and various kinds of liars, distorters, and… sorry, but yes… rednecks. It became too populist for me. I went into conservatism because of Barry Goldwater, William F. Buckley, and Ronald Reagan. I had more in common with someone like George Will, therefore, than someone like the godawful Hannity or Sam Brownback or Mike Huckabee, etc. etc. etc. The latter types dominate the party today. And it isn’t the kind of conservatism, I feel, that Goldwater would have cottoned to. He’d be wiping the floor with most of these guys if he was still around today, I think.
For me this began with Newt Gingrich. That’s when I started to feel a sick feeling in the pit of me somewhere. I never liked him and never believed for a moment that he was of the caliber of a Goldwater or a Reagan. And then a swamp of Gingrich’s were suddenly everywhere, and that, along with other changing ideas I was having, made me walk away from these beliefs and this philosophy for good.
You see, you two weren’t there. You grew up knowing ONLY the post-Gingrich conservatism, and I simply, and frankly, can’t see how anyone can get behind that intellectually—REALLY intellectually—and really believe that this is for the good. I still believe that Barry Goldwater was an honest man to the core who tempered his views when he saw times were changing—he could adapt—and he had true libertarian-ish views on what conservatism was, as did Reagan. And I believe Reagan meant to do great good, and it seemed wonderful at the time even though, years later, it ended up leaving a bad taste in the mouth. But Reagan himself I believed to have a kind of honesty and integrity of the same variety as Goldwater. Buckley, of course, was Buckley. But he too tempered his views when needed, and of course he was the intellectual center of that entire movement. There were others of course… but for me the whole point was, I believed in getting things done and getting things changed—it was a “radical” conservatism in the sense that, it was meant to turn society around and make things better for everyone. I wanted to see poverty and injustice addressed and if possible wiped out–or at least as close to that as we could reasonably get. And I wanted America to be a force for good in the world. We’d been led to believe, growing up, us Gen Xers, that the Left of the Sixties had fucked all this up and made things mostly worse. Some of this–maybe most of it–was true, but some of it wasn’t. But I wanted to have a break with it, nevertheless… new times, I felt, demanded a new kind of voice, a new philosophy. And it seemed like that was what conservatism could be, for a time.
But then it faltered, I feel. It went south. It fell into the hands of thugs like Gingrich and his army of followers, who were worse and worse each passing year, until even Gingrich was made to look almost like Goldwater. And today, it’s in the hands–largely–of people like this girlymac. For the most part, yes.
It’s a new century, and the world has changed hugely. I’m sorry, but I really feel that conservatism has become less and less relevant. Liberalism is really gone too. The old liberalism. It doesn’t really exist anymore–not in numbers. What’s replaced the real conservatism, to me, is a kind of right-wing populism. And that’s not what conservatism was meant to be, I feel. And on the left, the old radicalism has long been discredited.
But it’s not the 20th century anymore. The Cold War is over, we’re in an economic debacle which can largely be placed at the feet of Republican philosophy, and we’re in need of a new vision. I’m sorry ladies, but McCain just isn’t it. I liked him once upon a time. I still feel he’s at heart a good man… but he never was presidential, even when he was younger. And certainly the party he represents has gone bankrupt on us, in terms of ideas.
I miss the 80s sometimes and those days of idealistic conservatism—but I’m sorry to say, in my book it just didn’t work in the long run. Just as 60s liberalism didn’t work in the long run. They’re both played out.
October 14th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
580. Callie: I’m sure rushfan has already figured this one out, but I’m a conservative, not a Democrat or a liberal (neither small or capital L). In this particular race, I just have more confidence in the Obama ticket than I do in the McCain ticket.
October 14th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Randall:
A fair enough argument and I will only counter with this:
Young people are stupid.
Yep. I graduated from college a year and a half ago, and as a general rule (there are exceptions, of course), most of my peers were liberals. Unfortunately, they weren’t well informed liberals, or for that matter informed at all. The following is a true account with a friend I’ll call M, a tragically uninformed “democrat”
C: Dick Cheney shot someone in the face today.
M: Dick Cheney?
C: (thinking she didn’t hear me) Yeah…Dick Cheney shot one of his hunting buddies.
M: I think I’ve hard of him. What show is he on again?
I wish I was making that up.
The point is that I consider myself well-informed. I grew up with two very smart parents who stressed the point of a good education. In the interest of full disclosure, I did grow up with a die hard Republican dad and a middle of the road Democrat mom. When I went off to college, I wanted the chance to debate politics- smartly. I wound up surrounded by a bunch of kids who couldn’t name the VP and whose biggest issue was legalizing pot. Seriously. I’ve only been eligible to vote in one election, so I can’t say I’ll be voting along the same party lines my whole life. I just want to be better than the “I like weed and doing things without rules” mentality that liberals my age have, because someone my age will run for president in 20 years, and that scares me.
With that, I have put in an our and a half of overtime, and I don’t even get overtime. I’m going home.
October 14th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
I think Randall has pretty much summed up my feelings, as well, the only difference is that I went from being a big C Conservative to a small c conservative, for all of the reasons Randall outlined.
I played with radicalism in the late 60’s (you know, the whole Vietnam thing. My first boyfriend was drafted and killed within days of arriving in country, so I had something of a bad attitude about it), but by the early 70’s I was caught by William F. Buckley and there was no looking back until GWB.
October 14th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Can some American(s) please answer this for me: Is anyone seriously going to vote for Obama just because he is “black”? Is anyone seriously NOT going to vote for him ditto? Is this an issue? Is this THE issue?
October 14th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Well see, here’s the problem. There are plenty of Americans that WILL vote for Obama because he’s black. Most of them are young adults, just out of high school, who don’t particularly care about knowing the issues and just pick the candidate for whatever stupid reason, like him being black. Unfortunately that happens when everyone has the right to vote. Some take advantage of it and stop caring about what may or may not happen.
Disclaimer-I did not mean ALL young adults were like this. I meant that most people who are most often young adults who are fresh out of high school and still high on themselves from being seniors.
October 14th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
After all, we’re America and we’re possibly the most mixed up nation in the world. We’ll level entire cities and then turn around and send money for relief right afterwards lol.
October 15th, 2008 at 1:01 am
A LOT of people will vote for a candidate because of his race and a LOT of people will not vote for him for the same reason. The same attitude would be true for a woman, Jew, Hispanic, etc. We’ve all seen the clip of the woman at the McCain rally that stood up and said she wouldn’t vote for Obama because he’s an Arab. Even Mccain had to correct her on that point. I’m glad I have another viable choice this year instead of the typical rich, white man that hides his own racist attitude behind ultra conservative ideas and standards. I don’t consider myself a Democrat but I’m a Liberal and I hate the attitude of McCain and his kind. He’s a warmonger that is determined to take care of his rich friends and family because they took care of him. “Trickle down” economics doesn’t work! The fight in Irag is a modern day Vietnam!
I also think voting is over rated anyway because of “voting nullification”. Most people ignore the issues and just vote for the person they like to see or hear the most. Thats one of the reasons for the electorial college in the first place. The founding fathers knew that the average voter was not equipped to make such an important decision.
October 15th, 2008 at 1:43 am
In response to post #587 made by astraya:
I personally heard two of my friends discussing Obama/McCain not too long ago. Neither of them said ANYTHING about policies, choices, ideas, etc…
They both made it very clear where their vote was going, and that is towards Obama. When I asked them why, they said: “Because he’s black of course! Why vote another white guy in?”
(One friend was black, one friend was white.)
Yes, I’m American. Yes, they are American.
Sometimes, it IS as easy as “Oh, he’s this way, or that way, I think he’ll do better.” as is the case for this. “He’s black? I’m voting for him.”
So, yeah, this is not THE issue, but it certainly is A issue.
Either way, I support Obama (just throwing that out there!)
The US IS ready for a black president.
October 15th, 2008 at 6:48 am
astraya-
ditto to the responses above. There’s also people that will flat out lie and say they voted/plan to vote for Obama even if they didn’t so they don’t appear racist. It’s called the Bradely effect.
October 15th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Callie:
I believe the Bradley effect is actually the phenomenon of minority voters, presupposed to support a minority candidate, ending up voting for the minority candidate’s opposition for any number of reasons.
October 15th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
I swore off this entire website about a month ago because I couldn’t take it anymore. I nearly shit my pants after reading a thoughtful, well rounded and reasoned response from non-other than my arch enemy in this debate. Instead of his usual haughty name calling rant, we see a different side of him actually seeming like he’s ‘reserved.’
I’m thinking NyQuil was involved.
Who are you and what did you do with the real Randall?
October 15th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
You’ve been missed bucslim.
October 15th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Slick:
The theory of the Bradley effect is that the inaccurate polls have been skewed by the phenomenon of social desirability bias. Specifically, some white voters give inaccurate polling responses for fear that, by stating their true preference, they will open themselves to criticism of racial motivation
(wikipedia)
I really wish I could find better sources to back my stuff up. I hate wikipedia. I’ll work on it.
October 15th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
I think that while the “Bradley Effect” used to be true, the average American has outgrown that childish behavior.
I have already voted, for Obama, because I find his approach to the issues, overall, superior to McCain’s.
I also believe he is far more intelligent, and more steady.
One of the biggest pluses of all, he has no Sarah Palin holding him back.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Callie:
Well, I’ll be jiggered. I must have gotten some bad info somewhere. I’ll concede to the almighty Wiki. (It’s not that bad, really it’s not. It held its own against Encyclopedia Britannica.)
October 16th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Slick:
There’s something called a reverse Bradley effect, I think. Pundits are theorizing that’s what happened to Obama in New Hampshire (he was projected to win by a landslide but Hillary took the state) maybe that’s what you’re thinking of.
At any rate, maybe (hopefully!) segue is right and we no longer think that way. Only time will tell. I’m just happy people are getting out and voting, no matter your candidate. Unless you plan on writing in Gilligan or something. Why do people ever waste their time with that? Hundreds of years to come up with our system and people want to vote Spongebob Squarepants President. Lame.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
by the way, “I’ll be jiggered” is totally going in heavy rotation in my vocabulary.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
bucslim:
I don’t know what you mean; I’ve ALWAYS been well-rounded and reasoned.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Some Americans are not ready for a Black President but America is ready for that… the reason why some american are not ready its because they feel that they are still the supreme beings and they feel insulted that they are being ruled by a black president..
Who ever will be that President might be we need to help him/her to become 1 happy family..
regarding the war we need to win in order to have or give peace (were counquering a country for money?).
or how about let them do their stuff we’ll do ours..
just my opinion…..
October 17th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Judging from some of the comments above, I dare say The US isnot ready for a black President… It seems that racial tension bubbles just under the surface for many people who feel disenfranchised, be it due to low socio-economic circumstances, low levels of education and job instability (but please note that not all racists are poor, and not all poor people are racists).
I’ve noticed that one of the accusations levelled at Obama time and time again is that he is a Socialist. I’m not from the U.S. and am priveleged enough to live in a country where we have universal health care, and so I want to know: Why is Socialism seen as a great evil? Is it because of it’s evokation of Communism?
I just can’t understand why policy which improves the quality of life for ALL citizens, not just the rich, is seen as a bad thing, even by the poor. Same deal with taxation. It works for Europe, which consists of some of the oldest and strongest democracies in the world.
I appreciate any rational response to my question and thank you in advance for your help
October 17th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Horror(603) I think socialism is actually not such a bad thing when it comes to providing equal coverage and access to needs-level programs/services/facilities. Politically and economically speaking, it certainly has its drawbacks. There’s little incentive to be on the cutting edge of reform, innovation and production; lack of rewards to the individual is a common reason why many people do not like how communism and socialism are practiced. It seems that most people are also of the opinion that ‘any’ aspect of a political/social ideology implemented necessarily means that all of it will be implemented eventually – even though that’s not likely to be true.
The question of race could be equated in many people’s minds in much the same way – if we let ‘one’ in, we gotta let ‘all’ in… they’ll take over! oh no, what will we ever do?? Truth is, if we don’t like what the ‘one’ does, we simply don’t re-elect the one; and if things are bad enough, we impeach him/her. That’s the beauty of a representative democracy.
If we elect the best person for the job, regardless of race, sex, religion and/or social status, then we really have nothing to worry about. The over-arching problem is, people are often as biased, irrational, intolerant, sexist, racist and bigoted as they proclaim themselves not to be…
October 17th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
604. JayArr: Change representative democracy to representative republic, and I think you’re pretty much spot on (I just have this *MAJOR* problem with people using democracy instead of republic or democratic republic….I don’t know why, it’s a quirk, I admit it’s a quirk, it really doesn’t even make a difference in the scheme of things. Yet I can’t let it just go.)
Anyway, I agree with you. As long as we elect the best person for the job, none of the absurd qualifiers should even exist as considerations.
There will always be the few for whom no amount of qualification can overcome whatever their particular bias is. Those people are…well…unfortunate.
Most people today, thank heavens, have overcome that kind of mindset, and will vote for the best person whoever it might be.
October 17th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Rushfan: If Palin does end up as president wouldn’t we have a pussy in the white house?
October 17th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Maybe Obama has a cat he’ll bring.
October 19th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Sarah Palin is so sexy! She even showed a little rhythm last night on SNL.
I hope that after she loses the election with McCain she gets her own reality TV show.
OBAMA/BIDEN IN ‘08!!!
October 19th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
A sibling and I are in an intellectual e.mail argument about Obama-McCain right now.
October 20th, 2008 at 7:15 am
Segue(605) Thanks for your support!
As for the question of republic or democratic republic in this case, that’s not quite right. I understand what you mean when you refer to republic, but it’s not contextually accurate with my earlier comment. While the US is a republic, the number one fundamental principle upon which our government was founded is that of a representative democracy. We’re both referring to the same core concept though. 
Hurray for Ameddikka!
October 20th, 2008 at 7:23 am
jbjr:
…Really?
People like you should be required to take a test before you can vote. Sickening.
October 20th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Callie:
Sorry about that. I wrote that because I was taken aback when the word was used to describe Obama in an earlier post.
Would it be alright to call McCain one?
October 21st, 2008 at 2:20 pm
I recently received the following piece of thought provocation as a circulating e-mail. Not sure whether it belongs here or in ‘Next President’, so am posting in both:
“The following might help put the presidential race — and race — into perspective.
Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin, what if things were switched around?…..think about it.
Would the country’s collective point of view be different?
Ponder the following:
What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, including a three month old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?
What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?
What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class?
What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?
What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his
standards?
What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?
What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her
charitable organization?
What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?
What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?
What if McCain was a charismatic, eloquent speaker?
What if Obama couldn’t read from a teleprompter?
What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven
planes?
What if Obama was the one who was known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?
What if Michelle Obama’s family had made their money from beer distribution?
What if the Obamas had adopted a white child?
You could easily add to this list. If these questions reflected reality, do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are?
This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes
negative qualities in another when there is a color difference.
Educational Background:
Barack Obama:
Columbia University – B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations.
Harvard – Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude
Joseph Biden:
University of Delaware – B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
Syracuse University College of Law – Juris Doctor (J.D.)
vs.
John McCain:
United States Naval Academy – Class rank: 894 of 899
Sarah Palin:
Hawaii Pacific University – 1 semester
North Idaho College – 2 semesters – general study
University of Idaho – 2 semesters – journalism
Matanuska-Susitna Colle ge – 1 semester
University of Idaho – 3 semesters – B.A. in Journalism
Education isn’t everything, but this is about the two highest offices in the land as well as our standing in the world. You make the call.”
October 21st, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Anon, even though everyone in my family, except my brother and his immediate family, are Obama supporters, I forwarded this anyway. I just thought it was a powerful message.
Thanks.
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:12 am
Some perspective on how the rest of the world feel about Obama vs McCain:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2398181.htm
October 22nd, 2008 at 7:22 am
Anon
What if my Aunt had testicles? She’d be my uncle.
October 22nd, 2008 at 9:23 am
Anon:
Bush went to Harvard too..He must be as smart as Obama, right?
School isn’t everything. Biden plagerized his way through U of D. It’s documented.
When you go to have surgery done, do you want the guy who’s been doing it for years and knows exactly where to cut or the guy who’s been doing it for 6 months but has a really fancy degree?
Don’t be swayed by fancy schooling. Be swayed by what you want for your country.
October 22nd, 2008 at 10:28 am
Bucslim,
If she/he was your aunt by marriage and gay, testicles or not, no.
Callie,
“Bush went to Harvard too..He must be as smart as Obama, right?”
Well, you can prove that to us by setting out the Bush academic record in the same form as those in my post.
By my understanding neither of the candidates has been President before. Therefore America is surely choosing between two first-time surgeons?
What you want for your country is your privilege. What the much of the rest of the world (which is helpless in the choice, but suffers the consequences) would like is summed in the site recommendation of Horror (615).
October 22nd, 2008 at 10:59 am
“By my understanding neither of the candidates has been President before. Therefore America is surely choosing between two first-time surgeons?”
That’s a fair enough point. However..if both of them are doctors (or politicians), who deserves to be chief of medicine (or POTUS) In this case, their schooling shouldn’t matter, their qualifications up until this point should. It comes down to who YOU..not other countries, not your mom/dad/sibling/spouse thinks is best.
I got into Penn State, American, and George Washington and I chose to go to a small school in Maryland. Any one of those universities would have looked much more stellar on a resume than the one I ended up at, but in the end it was about what what best for me and my continuing education.
I’m just saying these “powerful messages” can all be broken down. This one is obviously pro-Obama. Where’s his class ranking? Where’s the mention that Biden has been caught plagerizing several times, both at college and in his political career? I’ll go find an email that sheds a postive light on McCain just as easy as you found this one.
October 22nd, 2008 at 11:17 am
Callie:
A) The record I find is that Barack Obama graduated from Columbia University at 212 out of over 3800 graduates. He then went to Harvard Law school–arguably the most prestigious law program in the country–where he graduated Magna Cum Laude, a distinction which, at Harvard, says that he was in the top 20% of a graduating class. He was also President of the Harvard Law Review–not a job given to the lightweights and slackers.
B) Much is made of Biden’s so-called plagiarism, but in fact it was not “several times.” There were, in fact, only TWO charges leveled against him–one in college–which he was CLEARED on—and one for paraphrasing a speech by Neil Kinnock–DURING a speech (so it was not surprising that he didn’t cite Kinnock, and hardly a federal offense). Having sat on student plagiarism committees, I know they don’t get let off that easily, and it’s likely that if Biden was cleared on the charge, it was probably undeserved in the first place.
The simple fact is, Barack Obama is a highly-intelligent individual. Biden a highly capable senator and lawyer. McCain—a good senator but never considered to be anywhere near an intellectual. And certainly his running mate, Sarah Palin, is as dumb as a box of rocks.
October 22nd, 2008 at 11:24 am
Randall: Why are you hating on rocks, now?
October 22nd, 2008 at 11:56 am
Cedestra:
I do not hate rocks; Randall is Guaranteed Largely Hate-Free, in fact. However, one must be brutally honest and admit freely that rocks are not, by any means, the smartest of god’s creatures. They consistenly score far below-average on SAT, ACT, and other standardized testing. Nor have they been known for their scholarly work in any field, with the sole exception of Geology, where they excel merely as subjects, not as scholars themselves. A rock has never won on Jeopardy, let alone a Nobel. Rocks are unable to read or write. The humble rock ought to be respected for many things, but intellectual accomplishment is not one of them.
Therefore, safe to assume that a BOX of rocks would, while perhaps being somewhat smarter than a SINGLE rock (being able, naturally, to pool their limited resources) be near the bottom on the scale of smarts. And yet, one must presume Sarah Palin to be dumber still. Rocks at least know that the Vice President of the United States merely PRESIDES over the Senate and casts votes only in the case of a tie. He or she does NOT participate in the Senate in the ways Palin recently indicated to an innocent and unaware 8th grader, whose poor little mind is now mushed up with contradictory claims—since he was surely taught in some sort of Social Studies or Civics class what Palin ought to have known herself–what with her running for the actual office and all.
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Randall: Mmm, so would you be saying that she’s smarter than A rock but not many rocks with pooled intelligence? Or maybe you are willing to recant and say Palin’s intelligence is lesser or equal than one rock and help make the rocks feel better about themselves. You know, rocks have come a long way in their fields of study. Why, just the other day I read a smashing paper written about the study of rock stacking as a replacement for space ships in space exploration. Utter nonsense, if you ask me. I was told, though, that only 132 rocks were needed to write such a paper- usually, of course, at least 200 are needed to write any paper of substance.
So, let us not count our rock-friends out of the line of intelligence. Now bricks, on the other hand, bricks can just go to Hell.
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Much is made? Really? Nothing is made of Biden at all, he’s getting an easy pass. Here’s what I know. By the way, he may have been “cleared” in that he wasn’t kicked out of Syracuse but he failed the class in question because of his plagiarism. In the speech in question, he began with the line “I was thinking..” and then launched into a nearly verbatim narrative of Kinnock’s speech. It was a little more than “paraphrasing.” Anyhow, I’ve been wanted to say this for awhile now, so:
I grew up in the town Biden’s wife and daughter died in. He trotted out her death every time he was up for re-election..he squeezes out some tears, parades his sons in front of the Delaware elite, and prides himself on single fatherhood.
Let’s see if Sarah Palin could get away with any of these:
Biden has smeared the other driver in that accident since it happened in the 70’s. He’s continuously made claims the man was drunk and rammed them, killed his wife and baby daughter and injured his sons. What happened was terrible, but it was Mrs. Biden’s fault. She ran a stop sign. The driver of the truck that hit her was cleared, he was not drunk, or speeding, and his truck passed inspection.
Biden met his second wife 6 months after the accident and married her a little under five years later. Biden’s sister and her familiy moved in with him to help him care for the kids. He was a “single father” for 6 months- during which time the senate was in session and he had several caretakers for the boys.
One other thing- the media makes a big to do about Palin using her children, trotting them out and whatnot. Biden’s sons were young at the time of the accident, but not too young to remember some of it. Biden brings up his tragic past and single fatherhood EVERY election, thereby making his sons relive that terrible night, and the death of their mother and sister over and over again.
Biden might be capable, but he’s a despicable human
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Yeah, you’re largely hate free Randall. Unless a person believes in Jesus or is anti-abortion or likes Led Zeppelin over the Beatles, or thinks the stats on global warming are skewed, or is a republican or puts only white guys in a list of top rockin bands, or thinks Truman is a mass murderer or votes for Hillary or likes Coke instead of Pepsi. Then it’s ok, because those people are just assholes, right?
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:19 pm
actually Randall..Joe Biden got the VP’s reponsibilities wrong.
“Democratic vice presidential nominee Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. appeared to incorrectly outline the constitutional role of the job he’s seeking in Thursday’s debate.
In attacking Vice President Dick Cheney, Mr. Biden said the vice president’s only role is to support the president and to preside over the Senate “only in a time when in fact there’s a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit.”
The Constitution, though, actually says the vice president is always president of the Senate and legal scholars say he has the right to preside at any time. Early vice presidents, such as Thomas Jefferson, actively exercised that role, the vice president still keeps offices at the Capitol, and scholars say it wasn’t until the middle of the 20th century that the vice president had an office at the executive office building.
The president pro tempore, usually the senior senator from the majority party, takes over only when the vice president is absent. In recent practice, as the vice president has taken a bigger role in the executive, that’s meant the Senate operates almost all of the time without the vice president in the chair.”
-Washington Times
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:24 pm
bucslim:
Yeah, except for all that, Hate Free.
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Callie:
Look, I never made a big deal out of Palin trotting her kids out. That’s the kind of thing politicians do. Rather, I make a big deal out of Palin being a moron. Which she is.
The polls are indicating that the American people agree with ME on this (not surprising… what with me being Everyman) in that Palin is now the CHIEF issue for why people are turning away from McCain, according to the latest reports.
Now, as for Biden… I make no claims to the guy being a saint. It’s why we call him Joey the Shark. The plagiarism? Yes, I give him a pass on that because it’s clear it’s nothing more than something for people opposed to him to latch on to, when the fact is politicians blab other people’s words all the time without proper citation. And Biden IS, as we know, an unmitigated big mouth–nobody denies that. But at any rate, TWO shady, half-baked instances of “plagiarism” don’t make him disreputable. A great solid guy? Maybe not. But neither is McCain, nor are probably most of the men and women in the Senate and the House.
I don’t excuse the guy. But CLEARLY he’s no dummy, and he’s highly capable. If, god forbid, something happens to Obama, I’m fine with the keys of power being handed over to Biden. But if something were to happen to McCain (not unlikely at his age) to turn them over to Palin fills me with fear, horror, and facial tics.
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Man, I hate it when people start dis’n rocks – what’d they ever do to us that we didn’t force them to do in the first place???
Playing devil’s advocate here on the doctor bit… if one doctor had 10 years in practice before the other doctor started, but had also ‘lost’ an average of three of the ten patients he operated on each year, I’m thinking I’d take my chances with the younger doctor that has only performed a total of three surgeries but all patients survived… hmmm….
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Cedestra:
Well yes, bricks, for ages, have been riding the coattails of rocks. But bricks are bottom feeders, no question about it.
And that paper? Yeah, plagiarized from a paper written by sediments, back in the 70s. I saw it in “Nature.”
October 22nd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
I have stated my opinion loud and clear here in Atlanta Ga. today by voting early for the next President of the United States……Barack Obama.
October 22nd, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Playing devil’s advocate here on the doctor bit… if one doctor had 10 years in practice before the other doctor started, but had also ‘lost’ an average of three of the ten patients he operated on each year, I’m thinking I’d take my chances with the younger doctor that has only performed a total of three surgeries but all patients survived… hmmm….
At the risk of sounding stupid, I’m confused by this one..maybe the medical analogy went to far
October 22nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
MT:
Vote early, vote often.
October 22nd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Callie, I was referring generically to the comments above about if they were surgeons…which would we choose – the one with more experience or the one without.
October 22nd, 2008 at 3:26 pm
633. Randall: Vote early, vote often.
****
I had an uncle who lived by that rule…and got away with it too. But that was in the 20’s – 50’s Australia, and the polls weren’t so tightly regulated.
I voted, by mail, last week. Obama/Biden. Why wait until the last minute?
October 22nd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Randall: *gasp* And I was rooting for the rocks…*tsk* Well, I guess that automatically disqualifies them from anything they EVER do again, like write other papers or run for the vice-presidency, things like that.
October 22nd, 2008 at 3:59 pm
But they still make great paper weights!
October 23rd, 2008 at 12:10 am
Rocks? You guys want some really influential rocks? Come to Chile. We got ‘em. PO-litical rocks with a capital P.
Every time there’s an election, the rocks here have a big say. Great obtruding rocks in the countryside and along mountain roads. The bigger the election, the bigger their say.
Take the early 70s. Some shouted in multi-colours, “Vote Allende” (Most Chileans did, he was the short-term winner: but it was All-endes up for him soon enough). Others gave us “Vote Tomiç” (But he lacked a-Tomic power), or “Vote Alessandri” (Whose speeches were said to be as tedious as the Alexandrines mocked by Pope). But the rocks don’t stop there. They will even adorn themselves with exhortations and occasional political rock-art in advocation of their favourites.
This so impressed a working companion that he proposed writing a geological paper describing a recent formation period in the Andes, the Sloganiferous Era.
Yeah, rocks rock and bricks are square, like wot you folks say.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:11 am
Don’t be a square, man!
L 7 weenies…
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:10 am
637. Yes, they do, but I was so hoping that one day they would rise above their earthly means and become better than what we think they can do. Other things can be great paperweights: statues, clocks, fruitcakes, witches. But rocks are tired of being downcast and downtrodden. They’re trying to make a better future for themselves and their rocklings. Of course, if they keep up with that plagiarizing bullcrap, then they can stay paperweights for all I care. I just want to give them a chance.
October 23rd, 2008 at 9:27 am
Beware malevolent alien rocks in space. With anger they sometimes smite our fragile Earth mightily. Even a carefully self-directed, teeny weeny meteorite might end the pretensions of Obama or McCain, and a truly enraged monster might end the pretensions of us all. Rocks may well have the last word.
But bricks, they’re a joke. Like cauliflowers, fantail goldfish and poodles, they are the creations, artifacts and slaves of humanity. They can kill, but only at our behest, and only one person at a time. Collectively they have indeed rebelled and fallen upon a fair quantity of us, but to no purpose or avail. Unlike rocks, they cannot cause extinction events. They are useless without us and when we become extinct, so will they.
October 23rd, 2008 at 9:29 am
Callie,
A passing thought crossed my mind. Does your experienced/inexperienced surgeon analogy apply to the potential VPs?
October 23rd, 2008 at 9:35 am
641. Anon: “They can kill, but only at our behest, and only one person at a time.”
Well, except for the Great Rock Incident of 1957 in which 13 people were killed by one rocked ricocheting off of each other. Wiped out almost half of a small town in Nevada!
October 23rd, 2008 at 9:36 am
I meant brick. Great Brick Incident of 1957. Rocks would never do such a thing.
October 23rd, 2008 at 10:58 am
I once shared a fruitcake with a witch… boy, what a great day that was! We sat on a clock statue and had a mug of hot eggnog with it… ah, the memories…
October 23rd, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Cedestra,
That merely qualifies as one of my collective incidents. As a rule bricks work in unison during these, but perhaps the Great Brick Incident of 1957 was triggered by one individual running amuk, Malay style, and mentally destabilizing the rest. Unlike rocks, bricks are not individualists as such, however. For one to run amuk would be the exception. They are a conformist, look-alike, follow the crowd set. Except that bricks are all of the same size and temperament, we might fear a large, dominant brick-Hitler or brick-Stalin somewhere, who could organise plebian bricks into a terrifyingly destructive force aiming to create a 1000 year Brickish Empire.
October 23rd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Fear the Brickish Empire! I’m more of a Rocktopia kind of guy, myself.
October 23rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Apropos,
When someone stands by us, helps us, or does us a great favour, often at the cost of self-sacrifice, why do we say,
“Thanks, you’re a brick.”?
Shouldn’t it be “… you’re a rock.”?
And whoever heard of “The Brick of Ages”, or “Solid as a brick” or “Brick firm” (apart from firms which make bricks)?
October 23rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
JayArr,
Me, I’m Cock of the Rock (and take that any way you like).
October 23rd, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Anon:
I suppose it should, as the analogy itself simply boils down to experience in general..however, both McCain and Obama are senators and as such their records and experience in the senate can be compared.
Palin and Biden are a governor and a senator…their responsibilites can’t quite be compared as easily, but their political experience can (though it can be argued that governing a state and running a country parallel more closely than being a senator and running a country.)
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Anon, I used to be one too – until my wife decided to hit me with a brick…
October 23rd, 2008 at 4:12 pm
JayArr,
My wife only goes in for ice cream bricks. I’m more than happy to be hit by one of those …
October 23rd, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Callie,
Sounds like you might be advocating governor Palin for President and downgrading the other three senators then!
October 23rd, 2008 at 4:15 pm
JayArr,
… provided it isn’t frozen too hard. Ouch …
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:30 pm
You know, if you leave a fruitcake out long enough, it will become rock hard; Thus, allowing you to use the fruitcake as a weapon, paper weight, missile, general object of destruction, etc. and allowing the rocks and bricks to lie about in a heap (as rocks and bricks are wont to do), so re-establishing the delicate balance of life.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I have only just rediscovered this recent exchange. I had to scroll a long way back to find where the obsession with rocks came from.
In defence of rocks:
1) they were the first practioners of rock music (without which there’d be no Led Zeppelin)
2) an infinite number of them falling on an infinite number of typewriters could create the script of “Hamlet”
3) Um – some of them look pretty.
4) (Getting desperate) – um
I also saw the article mentioned in 615, but couldn’t be bothered posting it. It seems everyone in this discussion is either not a US voter, or has already made up its mind.
It looks at this stage that the US is going to get a black president ready-or-not.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:39 pm
segue: you posted 655 as I was typing 656. Can we call S Palin a fruitcake then?
Who will be ‘666′? (It was segue on the other list, wasn’t it?)
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:50 pm
astraya, yes, to both questions.
I think I was 666 on a list that was loosely religious (but I forget which list now).
I was watching…I think it was Rachel Maddow…and the idea came up that Palin had given up on being McCain’s running mate and was positioning herself for a run of her own in 2012.
October 24th, 2008 at 2:57 am
Wow… Interesting how conversations turn around here… Gone from racial acceptance to presidential eligibility to the delightful topic of… Rocks?
I suppose rocks do, in fact, rock. But, on to the thing I came here to say…
As for America being ready for a black president… Undoubtedly for intelligent, younger members of society, yes. I fear for some of the backwoods, secluded populations though. I also fear that Obama will become a likely target for assassination. I’m not ready to say that America has grown up enough to be free of it’s ‘colored glasses’ view of things. I have my own views of racism, they tend to get me in trouble. Personally, I believe that while the prejudice of whites against blacks is horrible, and is portrayed as such, the massively growing prejudice of blacks against whites is inevitably taken as part of todays culture or ‘okay’. I get so sick of it. Why should the ‘n’ word be treated with respect by all others when black people themselves are so inclined to toss it about casually amongst themselves?
So, all in all, while I support Obama, I don’t want to see him get the presidency simply BECAUSE of the fact that he’s black. I want to see him win because his proposed policies are better, he presents himself well, and as a member of the military, he seems my only hope for not experiencing a ton of deployments to the middle east.
One thing I would like to see any of the candidates even MENTION would be whether or not they plan to bring back up the number of species actively protected by the government. Since Bush’s term, the number has drastically decreased.
All of this, and Palin scares the bloody crap out of me…
October 24th, 2008 at 6:34 am
653:
No, no, no. I just think her experience shouldn’t be swept under the rug because some people think she’s “dumb as a box of rocks” ( I think that was the quote…
)
She’s a smart, capable woman. Capable of the presidency? Not at this time. Capable of the vice presidency? Yes. More capable (and about 100 times more likeable than Biden, who doesn’t even know his role as VP)? Hell yes.
October 24th, 2008 at 6:56 am
I love it when a plan comes together!
Oh, and why is it that when a rock is born, that’s as big as it will ever get? The older they are, the smaller they become. If only it worked that way with my belly and with many politicians’ egos.
Get – in – muh – bellee!!
October 24th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Everyone keeps saying that it’s the younger generation who will support Obama, and the older, white generation who are afraid of him.
That amuses me. That amuses me in the extreme.
If anyone can remember, or cares to look up their history, the 1960’s America was the “Generation of Love”. The hippies.
There was a lot wrong with the hippies, but there were some things right. One of the right things, one of the *very* right things, was a complete lack of racial bias. This lack of bias has followed them through life, so you now have a large group of 60 – 70 yr. olds without racial bias; who will be voting based on which candidate they think will be best for the country, not on skin color.
These are people who passed on their attitudes to their children. So you have two generations of people whose lack of bias is real, is bone deep.
Of course the numbers are not large enough to swing the election. But the numbers are real. We now have two generations. The third is now being born, are toddlers, pre-schoolers. In another few elections they will be voters. The numbers will grow.
Of course, this is a simplistic view of a complex problem. But it is a beginning.
“To everything there is a season”…maybe the season is coming.
October 24th, 2008 at 11:00 am
ecclesiastes 3:1-8
October 24th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Callie,
“… about 100 times more likeable than Biden”
I seem to recall a fairly recent President named Jimmy Carter, who was one of the most likeable souls on earth …
Again, if memory serves, a certain hostile, confrontational and antagonistic British P.M. (female to boot!), Maggie Thatcher, was for a long while considered one of our most effective of all times. Unfortunately Iron rusts. She should have got herself called the Stainless Steel Lady.
October 24th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Obama rocks!!!
October 24th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Anon:
There was a young man named John Kennedy who was both likeable and presidential, no?
There was an actor by the name of Ronald Reagan whom people believed too “Hollywood” to be president, and now ranks among the highest approval ratings.
Surely you can be both personable, likeable, and capable?
October 24th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
And now back to the far more fascinating topic of rocks (The Top 10 Rocks in Geology, someone?).
Maybe I should change my aka from Anon to Andesite.
“I talk to the rocks, but they don’t listen to me” (Sends off for straightjacket from Amazon, small percentage of purchase price to LV.)
It occurs to me that if we gave our children a box of wooden or plastic rocks (but not a Barbie-style Sarah Palin doll equivalent) instead of building brick sets to play with, they might grow up with a much more harmonious approach to the natural world.
JayArr,
“… why is it that when a rock is born, that’s as big as it will ever get?”
It ain’t necessarily so. Have you not noticed that rocks go in for re-incarnation? Small, rounded pebbles combine anew as massive chunks of conglomerate. Innumerable grains of sand, individually as physically feeble as Monty Burns, reappear as sandstone mountains, with all the innate power of Monty Burns’s amoral mindset. In fact ultimately all rocks are subsumed beneath the earth’s mantle and phoenix-like, are reborn to the world from the fiery interior.
Such is the wonder of rocks.
(Thinks: how much longer shall we be allowed to get away with this indulgent non-seqitur?) Ah, but if we delicately avoid Little Rock and bring the subject back on topic by asking, “Is the US (and the World) Ready for a Black Rock?”, we find the answer to be a resounding “Yes”, with around three dozen global entries in wiki.
Well, with that I guess I’ve truly hit rock-bottom. So …
………………………THE END………………………
October 24th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Callie,
Indeed you (or one) can. However, I was given to believe you were intending the reverse, which was the point of my post. I.e. that unloveable Maggies and Bidens can’t cut the mustard. If all can, the Good, the Bad and the Ugly equally, then surely likeablity comes close to being irrelevant, if not actually a dangerously seductive wrong reason to vote?
Having said that, who could deny that Nixon’s inability to control his *villanous-looking shadow* fairly cost him the contest against square-jawed, clean-shaven Kennedy?
October 24th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
I don’t know whether to add this here or under “outbursts in public” re Michael Richards.
I was watching “America’s next top model” last night. Okay, my wife was watching America’s nest top model last night and I was sitting next to her. One of the contestants is a “straight out of central casting small-town, apple-pie” young (white) woman. Two others are a motor-mouth self-proclaimed “black” woman (ie about 25% African ancestry) and a transgender “woman”. The white woman said something about the black woman’s incessant talking and within milliseconds the black woman had parlayed that into in insult about race. Later, the transgender accidentally encroached on the white woman’s personal space and she pushed her away. Soon after, that became “intolerance for transgenders” and they ganged up on her and reduced her to tears. I was firmly on the side of the white woman, if that doesn’t make me sound racist or intolerant of transgenders. I don’t like motor-mouths of any “race” (ie human or Martian). The concept of transgender freaks me out, through lack of ever having met one.
At the end of the episode, the black and the transgender were up for elimination. The black woman was.
Intriguingly, there’s another woman on the show who is even darker than the one I’ve just been talking about, and she hasn’t said anything about race, and appears to be a reasonably personable young woman.
(Some of you may have seen that on US television a few months ago.)
I think my point is that as soon as race (or gender) becomes an issue, years or centuries of hostilities come into play. If this election was between McCain and Biden (the two old white men), would the debate be about race or gender?
October 24th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
astraya,
Ah, but what if the (presidential) contest were between Condoleezza Rice and Michelle Obama? Now there’s a thought.
October 25th, 2008 at 5:22 am
I imagine Rice v Mobama would be run on “experience” v “change”.
October 25th, 2008 at 6:33 am
Indeed,
Plus ca change, plus c’est la même experience …
But at least on a level racial and gender playing field! All bad or all good, depending on you point of view, I guess. Ha Ha.
October 26th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
All Americans Vote on November 4th!
It’s not over yet despite what the polls say.
The Republicans will lie,cheat or steal to win an election so don’t take our large lead for granted.
OBAMA/BIDEN IN ‘08!!!
October 27th, 2008 at 5:48 am
MT – Us Republicans are just trying to keep up with Acorn.
October 27th, 2008 at 6:22 am
I hope so. However, with all his talk about change and not being specific about what he’ll do is kind of worrying me. He certainly knows how to do the talking but can he walk the walk? We’ll find out . . .
October 27th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Anon – lucky for reincarnation, rocks have a chance to come again as bigger better rocks than before. Though I wonder – does Rock Springs really spout rocks? I know presidential candidates spout a lot of things, but I can’t say as I’ve ever seen one spout a rock… though I have seen one spout a tooth!
October 27th, 2008 at 8:16 am
8 Days & counting for all of us Stupid/Ignorant Republicans! Can’t wait to see how many white votes add to the very small population of black votes in this country….Oh, but we aren’t ‘voting’ for Obama BECAUSE he’s BLACK or are we? I mean that might be considered a racist act. Wouldn’t it? To vote for a man because of his skin color? Please! LIBERALS can call be everything in the book, if that makes you feel better. I depend on the knowledge that it’s a LIBERAL spouting off…Hey, what else CAN YOU DO? & Yes there are MANY MORE JUST LIKE ME who are voting for a man on SUBSTANCE & not because of RACE!
October 27th, 2008 at 8:19 am
misspelled word, sorry broken finger.
YOU CAN ‘CALL ME’ EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK……
October 27th, 2008 at 8:45 am
OK, you’re everything in the book.
October 27th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Anon:
I think my original point was that I don’t care for Biden- for both his political stance and his personal character..it was more a character attack than anything else, which I suppose wasn’t fair.
Of course I believe you can be both unliked and a great leader, like Thatcher, or liked and not a good leader, like poor Jimmy, or have the best of both worlds like JFK. It brings me to my other point that people would rather dredge up Palin’s beauty pageant past than her political prowess. Say what you want about her smarts, but I doubt any of us is governor of anything, and that does require a certain amount of thinking.
girlymac-
sweetie, I’m on your side, and even I’m beseeching you to be quiet. Your rants are doing nothing for us.
October 27th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
679. bucslim
Maybe you and Faux News should be asking why thousands of registered voters were purged from the roles in Colorado by the Republican Gov. Thats a lot worse than any regristration fraud. It’s also not an isolated incident. You Republicans should take your loss like men and move on.
OBAMA IN ‘08!!
October 27th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I’m voting for McCain. I think the US is ready for a black president, but unfortunately he is in the wrong party for me. What has been driving me crazy lately is when I tell someone who I am voting for, they automatically assume its because I’m a typical white racist trying to keep the black man down. I think a black president would do fine in this country, but I’m not going to vote based on race.
October 28th, 2008 at 6:07 am
rafterman:
So you’re all in favor of how the last eight years have gone? All happy and content with our vastly diminished world image, our mountainous debt, our wildly out-of-control budget, our monumental economic disaster, our six + years of wasted war in Iraq while Afghanistan has been neglected (where the real enemy was), the slow erosion of our civil liberties, the flight of jobs overseas, encouraged by tax policy? All happy with all this, and eight years of corruption both in government and in corporate America, to boot?
But yeah, go ahead and vote to keep THAT party in power which has urged on, caused, or vehemently supported all this. That makes good sense.
Voting party line, and particularly for a failed party’s failed philosophy and actions–and particularly in times of crisis–is the act of an irresponsible citizen–one who does not take his or her responsibility AS a citizen seriously, or with any sense of gravity.
October 28th, 2008 at 6:25 am
Ah, Randall, with that comment you speak to my heart… Obama made a significant quote recently… “This election will not come down to whether the country is better than it was four years ago, but whether it will be better in four years.” Not exact, but you get the idea.
People are all ready to criticize Obama with the whole thing about him proposing change and not saying what the change will be… But he HAS… Listen to him. He has divulged more of his plans, I believe than old ‘my friends’ McCain.
And criticizing him for his tax plan… Where do people think money for government projects COME from? He can’t just wave a magic wand and pull money out his ass to start up programs to help our current situations.
Rafterman, I do agree with you on the small point that many are making this a race thing. But making it a party thing is kinda bad, too (not AS bad, obviously, but still bad).
October 28th, 2008 at 7:00 am
Anon E Mouse(684) – I believe the end of Barak’s statement was whether we’d be better off than we were …”four weeks ago…”
October 28th, 2008 at 7:51 am
MT – you mean like you Democratic ‘men’ took your losses in 00 and 04?
And to quote the New York Times:
“voters appear to have been purged by mistake and not because of any intentional violations by election officials or coordinated efforts by any party.”
October 28th, 2008 at 8:35 am
682. rafterman: the game is over. McCain has already lost, and he already knows it.
Palin is already positioning herself for a 2012 run, which the RNC will quash.
October 28th, 2008 at 8:50 am
686. bucslim
‘00 was a well documented election theft that eventually gave W. the election via a conservative Supreme Court decision. Judge Scalia (sic) said himself that it was pointless to count all the votes because Bush was going to win anyway. By ‘04 the dis-information (swift boat veterans)and fear mongering (do you want another 9/11?)machine was in full effect. The Dems really did “Put Country First” and moved on. Will the GOP do the same or will they continue to undermine Obama’s Presidency by preaching hate, fear and mistrust?
October 28th, 2008 at 8:56 am
MT – thanks for proving my point.
October 28th, 2008 at 9:32 am
JayArr: Really? Dang. I need to shut my mouth and cite my sources before I run off at the face. My apologies.
October 28th, 2008 at 10:32 am
buc:
I love you man, but you’re being disingenuous. Those two elections–particularly 00—were highly suspect. Let’s not pretend they weren’t. But let’s not be coy about it from the other angle either—this kind of thing has happened in American elections before, and both parties have been guilty of it. Trouble is, even when it WAS done, in the past, we usually ended up with a decent president despite it. This time, we got badly burned. Twice.
October 28th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Anon. E. Mouse, no worries. I have the occasional day when I actually remember something accurately… rare though they may be.
October 28th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Not being disingenuous. Just responding to the point that we can’t seem to let it go that McCain might be on the verge of losing.
There’s plenty of bitching to go around on both sides here pal.
October 28th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Since when is melanin count the most important thing when choosing a leader. Yes, I’d vote for a black man for president in a heartbeat, just not this one. Barack Obama is an empty suit that we know nothing about. He speaks eloquently and says nothing. His inability to squelch those of his supporters who have resorted to blatant illegality, crude and vicious attacks on his opponents, playing the race card, and threatening violence should he not be elected speaks much about the man’s “ends justify the means” approach toward issues. Over the years, he’s surrounded himself with people who genuinely detest my country and much of what it stands for. He distances himself from situations he can’t control, prevaricates and twists facts when things don’t go his way, and has had few, if any, original thoughts in his entire life. Voting “present” is not leadership; neither is being a “community activist” (whatever that is) and neither is a record of never standing up to the leadership if his party on any issue whatsoever. This makes him an automaton party-hack unwilling to do anything that will make him look bad. His life-long goal, like that of Bill Clinton, another man-child, is to be loved , even if it means making inappropriate or dangerously wrong decisions. This man will not make a good president and our country will suffer for it should he be elected.
October 29th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Sorry MDWhite i disagree
If you think Mcain should be elected that is your choice im voting for Barack Obama. Maybe in America being black will be good and the thousands of black people who dissapear in america(register themselves as white because of light and caucasian features)will may think twice and say hey:” being black aint that bad after all”
The black image is tarnished today from BET saying the race is all gangsters and pimps hopefully Barack Obama’s presidency can change this.
October 30th, 2008 at 7:15 am
MDWhite:
Let’s pick apart your nonsense piece by piece, shall we?
“Barack Obama is an empty suit that we know nothing about.”
Bullshit. The man has a published book that’s been out for ages. He has a record in the Senate and a record in the Illinois legislature. He’s outlined his beliefs and his stand on every key issue you can imagine. This oft-repeated crap mantra of “we know nothing about Obama” is code for something else. Sometimes it’s racism, sometimes it’s just a more general stupidity. Which is it with you?
“He speaks eloquently and says nothing.”
Another common bit of repeated nonsense. And it smacks of the usual anti-intellectualism that we’ve seen in this campaign from lumpen-populists on the Right. In point of fact Obama’s speeches and platform have been FULL of not only substance, but SPECIFICS. He DOES speak eloquently at times. Good for him. He’s obviously a very smart man. And you know what? I too am a very smart man. But in my president, I WANT a guy who is a LOT smarter than me. I want the smartest guy in that job we can possibly get. Obama is definitely that. He speaks eloquently because he IS smart and DOES know what he’s talking about and DOES communicate that with substance and specifics. McCain’s blathering, stumbling, halting speech style, on the other hand, not only *conveys* a lack of knowledge and substance, but *betrays* it.
“His inability to squelch those of his supporters who have resorted to blatant illegality, crude and vicious attacks on his opponents, playing the race card, and threatening violence should he not be elected speaks much about the man’s “ends justify the means” approach toward issues.”
SURELY now you have simply become totally confused and are in fact talking about McCain, not Obama. The BULK of the “crude and vicious attacks” have come from the Right—mainly from Palin and McCain—and as for violence, nothing matches the violent outbursts we’ve heard at McCain/Palin rallies. In fact, MD, I’d like to ask where the hell you’re getting your information? I’ve heard nothing about “promises of violence” from Obama supporters. (And also, what “crude and vicious attacks” from Obama’s side are you referring to?)
You know, again… these intimations… smack of disguised racism. The insinuation, it sounds to me, that you’re trying to make is that some kind of call has been made for blacks to “rise up” should Obama lose; I’ve heard no such call. But coming on here and trying to feed the fear of it—very classy, MD. Noooooooo…. you’re not a racist are you? You’re not trying to race-bait or raise fears of race-wars, are you?
“Over the years, he’s surrounded himself with people who genuinely detest my country and much of what it stands for.”
I’ve got news for you, MD… it’s my country too. And it seems to me you’re turning TWO associations in Obama’s life–his preacher and a somewhat distant political association—into this exaggeration of Obama “surrounding” himself with such people. Hardly. And let’s remember something else, MD… detesting the American government or at times American society is NOT the same as detesting America (the country) itself.
“He distances himself from situations he can’t control,”
This statement is a non-sequitur. To what are you referring to? And when do people, in any case, cozy UP to situations they “can’t control”? What is MEANT by this statement of yours? It makes no sense.
“…prevaricates and twists facts when things don’t go his way,”
Another unsupported assertion made by you that demands follow-up and justification.
Sounds to me, MD, like you’re just retyping right-wing talking points, and vague ones at that.
“and has had few, if any, original thoughts in his entire life.”
Again, another unsupported, wild assertion. And ludicrous to boot. On the one hand, it’s just silly to accuse a man in Obama’s position (or McCain’s for that matter) of having “few, if any, original thoughts in his entire life.” That kind of hyperbole is just foolish. On the other hand–what are you saying specifically? Politicians feed off one another and on prior philosophies. There are only so many ways to look at and govern a democratic society. So what kind of “originality” are you expecting?
At any rate, I’d remind you, MD… Harvard doesn’t routinely graduate at the TOP of their rankings people who lack for original or innovative thinking. Certainly the Harvard Law Review doesn’t name as its presidents people with such lackings. This statement of yours is not only disingenous, it’s offensively foolish.
“Voting “present” is not leadership;”
This is a tired, old saw. I’m sure now that all you’re doing is repeating what you’ve heard on Fox News or from Rush Limbaugh or similarly-oriented outlets. The “present” vote in the Illinois State Senate is used as a means of expressing tacit disapproval for a measure without actually voting against it—it’s a custom. It’s a way of dealing with bills that have various items in them that are not in keeping with the senator’s ideas, but have a core point that he or she agrees with. Or vice versa.
“neither is being a “community activist” (whatever that is)”
I beg to differ. I’ve known many community activists who were, in fact, great leaders. In fact, it TAKES leadership to be an activist and organizer in communities. And again, the snide little remark (“whatever that is”) indicates that you’re just playing political games here, and right-wing ones at that. You know very well what a community activist is—you simply despise it as a calling. Well I don’t. Most people who understand real life don’t. People who have their heads up their right-wing asses, however, detest “community activism” because for the most part it seeks justice for the little guy, not the rich prick and his giant corporation. Of course, when community activism is about bombing abortion clinics or trying to force right-wing morality on communities, I’m sure you’d be right behind that.
“and neither is a record of never standing up to the leadership if his party on any issue whatsoever.”
An out-and-out lie. Obama has already illustrated several instances where he did just that—stood out on his own, against his party’s leadership.
“His life-long goal, like that of Bill Clinton, another man-child, is to be loved”
Interesting that you can make such a psychological observation about a man whom you claim (see above, at the beginning of your rant) NOTHING about, since he’s an “empty suit.”
“This man will not make a good president and our country will suffer for it should he be elected.”
On the contrary, I think he’ll make a very good president, possibly a great one. But in any case what our country certainly does NOT need now is another four years of Republican rule. That’s obvious.
October 30th, 2008 at 7:30 am
MDWhite, (694),
“…and our country will suffer for it should he (the *man-child*) be elected”
Ah, just like it has done (and, unbelievably, twice!) under your incumbent (and mercifully nearly *excumbent*) daddy’s-boy, you mean?
October 30th, 2008 at 8:52 am
I sometimes wish that pretzel had finished the job I sent it out to do (I’m kidding of course- maybe?).
Damn, Randall, I’m so glad you’re on our side.
October 30th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Oh, Randall, every once in a while I’m reminded I haven’t told you in a long time how much I admire you.
I admire you. More. I find you astonishingly brilliant. (Believe me, this is *not* a compliment I hand out lightly).
People! Listen to Randall on this. He has all of his facts at hand. All he says about Obama is true. If I still had the strength, I’d be fighting by his side but, alas, I haven’t that luxury. Randall is a fine, intelligent person. Put his rants aside and listen only to his facts.
Once you truly absorb the facts about Obama, there is only one choice this year.
Vote Obama.
October 30th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Easy segue. Randall has sensitive skin, so humping his leg like that is going to give him a nasty rash.
October 30th, 2008 at 10:53 am
700. bucslim: I’m not in love with the dude. I just admire his mind.
You’re just jealous because your man is going to lose.
October 30th, 2008 at 11:18 am
segue:
Thank you…. and I’m touched. I hope I can find the strength of will to finish what I’ve started in regards to the work-in-progress I sent you a while back. It gave me a great deal of encouragement to have someone of your position and professional credentials offer me the praise that you did. I appreciated it deeply. And thanks for the support and encouragement here, as well.
October 30th, 2008 at 11:20 am
buc:
My skin is sensitive and supple, yes… but can also take it in the places that count.
October 30th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
segue – you admire him now, but he’ll turn on you like a foamy Ole’ Yeller when he disagrees with you. Only one thing to do then, take him to the barn and put him down.
And yes Randall, you are touched. . . .wokka wokka wokka!
October 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
buc, Randall and I *have* disagreed, but we handle it like intelligent grown-ups. We have responsible arguments, based on facts, and come through still friends.
I don’t disagree with him often, but if I do, I’m not afraid to tell him so. He’s not scary.
October 30th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
I’m extremely tired of ignorant people mindlessly repeating blatant lies like “Obama is a terrorist” or “he is a Muslim”. The people that say these things have no knowledge of Barack or probably anything he’s ever done. People can talk about not having experience all they want, and how Barack has never been in the armed forces, but the truth still remains that he knows well what he’s doing. As to the lies of being Muslim, he has always been a Christian. Some also question his place of birth. He was born in Hawaii. Not Indonesia. He has lived in Indonesia, but only for four years after his father died in an automobile accident and his mother remarried to another man.
On another note, does anyone realize that if John McCain becomes president, many jobs will be lost? John McCain wants to stop funding for NASA which will cause many people to lose their jobs. This can’t happen.
Vote for Barack Obama. Vote for Change.
October 31st, 2008 at 7:01 am
706. anakin4me: It’s lovely to see the calm voice of reason…finally!
Just as a side note, although everyone with half a functioning brain knows Obama has been a life-long, practicing Christian, if he were a Muslim – SO WHAT? He isn’t, but the fact remains, so what? Isn’t this nation founded on the principle of religious freedom? The man could be a practicing Druid, and he’d still have gotten my vote.
He’s simply the best man for the job right now.
I’ve already voted Obama, now go and do likewise.
October 31st, 2008 at 9:48 am
707. segue: I’m glad to know us practicing Druids get your vote.
October 31st, 2008 at 11:01 am
segue – anakin4me – you’re both wrong. He’s Jim Jones and you two are next in line to drink the Koolaide.
October 31st, 2008 at 11:43 am
I don’t drink koolaid, it’s full of stuff I can’t even pronounce.
Besides, the idea of Sarah Palin, whose knowledge of the world is limited so severely, terrifies me. McCain used to be a man with a good head on his shoulders, someone I trusted. Now, he’s stuck in a schizophrenic break, brought on by the tension of the race, harking back to the tension of his years as a POW.
This is not someone I want to trust with the future of the nation.
The Republicans had some exceptionally good choices this year. They chose badly.
October 31st, 2008 at 12:01 pm
buc:
You and a couple others keep harping on this notion that Obama has somehow “bewitched” all of us and that we think he’s some kind of “messiah.”
Get off that kick. It’s insulting to the intelligence of people such as myself, segue, and others. I, at least, have perfectly valid reasons for wanting the guy to win over McCain. I’m not “fooled” or in some kind of mind-clouded ectasy.
Find another tack for arguing this over. That one’s BS, and it’s kinda offensive to people such as myself who don’t get “swept up” by politicians.
October 31st, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Randall:
I would never accuse you of being one to get swept up in all of this- and that’s said absolutely without a drop of sarcasm.
However, being as smart as you are, you have to admit that there are several (most likely young) voters who ARE voting Obama because he’s “fun” and “they make fun of that chick on SNL”
I wouldn’t go as far as this whole kool-aid analogy, which I am incredibly tired of, but so many people I know who are voting Obama are doing so for really scary reasons.
By the by-
Happy Halloween Listversers!!
October 31st, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Callie,
I paraphrase again Winston’s (Churchill’s) quotation about the best argument against democracy being a five-minute chat with an average voter.
So it may be better not to look too deeply into the idiot fringe or knee-jerk voters on all sides of any political contest (you have *disowned* some on your own party’s commenters here, I believe). Better just hope and pray they cancel one another out, and that those capable of more mature, profound and flexible judgement ultimately call the shots.
October 31st, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Anon! Welcome back, you have been sorely missed.
October 31st, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Randall,
You’ve insulted my intelligence on this tread time and time again. I dropped it a month ago because you dissected every syllable I wrote and explained to me how crazy I was to even consider voting for someone other than your appointed messiah. A few posts back you said someone was being irresponsible for voting for someone other than the person you’re endorsing. In previous posts you’ve insinuated things about me that were totally false. And now you have the gall to tell me to change my tactics and get off the kick? You can’t accept the fact that there are other people schlepping around this country who see things differently than you and that they might be right. You have no faith in people to make informed decisions for themselves so you go off on lengthy explanations full of browbeating and insults.
I’ve explained clearly why I’m not voting for Obama and I know plenty of smart, hardworking, honest and good people who are doing the same thing. I don’t owe you any explanation of myself and frankly I don’t give a shit whether you think I’m stupid, irresponsible or fucking of my nut.
So go ahead, take every sentence I’ve written and write two paragraphs on it for your fawning fans. Or don’t. Either way, I don’t give a damn. You bore the shit out of me.
October 31st, 2008 at 9:25 pm
check that – “off my nut.”
October 31st, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Your beginning to bore the hell out of me sounds better than shit, don’t you think?
Heartbreak Ridge – Gunny Highway
November 1st, 2008 at 7:45 am
Here’s one question I have for Americans in general and Republicans in particular.
Generally speaking in the UK, if not always, when a political leader makes a balls-up he or she will get kicked out at the next election as surely as God made …
So how come the dreadful Dubya got voted in a second time? (I’ll allow anyone can err first time around.)
This does not suggest to the outside world that Republican voters in particular are all that responsible or reliable. I suppose the inevitable answer will be that the alternative would have been worse (in someone’s opinion). That only then raises the inevitable and distinctly scary sequel: Was that the best potential leadership the most powerful nation in the world had to offer then?!
November 1st, 2008 at 8:41 am
No, Anon, it wasn’t the best potential leadership we had to offer, it was simply that those were the only choices we were given; Kerry or Bush…and Perot, who never had a chance and was only there because he bought his way in.
That our system is flawed is no secret. Yet it works. It works well. No one man can have more than 8 years to screw things up, and if he screws things up sufficiently in the first 4, he usually gets voted out of office.
Usually, but not always.
Still, it works.
November 1st, 2008 at 11:17 am
Wow, I don’t even like Randall but I respect his ability to get all the facts available and present them in a clear and concise fashion. But I have to agree “he’ll turn on you like a foamy Ole’ Yeller when he disagrees with you”. Now that was funny!
But bucslim don’t get me wrong, I still don’t like you either. Like most right wing fanatics you’re just a coward hiding behind a keyboard.
OBAMA/BIDEN IN ‘08!!
November 1st, 2008 at 1:39 pm
segue,
I was really simply getting in a bit of last minute tongue-in-cheek stirring. In fact that knowing old bird Winston said it yet again in, “Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried.”
As for leadership material, I suspect the best of it everywhere often remains buried and untried, perhaps not always even in politics. I have a friend who considers leaders should be reluctant and appointed against their will, because they are then devoid of corruptive ambition. Well, history doesn’t really back that as a regular option either.
As you say, similar to UK reaction, a US bummer is indeed usually shown the door after a first session. So I return to ask Republicans why they expect the rest of us to have confidence in their voting judgement this time around?
November 1st, 2008 at 9:16 pm
MT – how exactly am I a coward behind a keyboard?
What does that even mean and how does it relate to the topic at hand?
I’m all broken up and misty eyed that you don’t like me MT. I’m so upset I’ll probably have to pack up some jerky and time share with Jeramiah Johnson and Sasquatch in the Rockies as we make a pine cone cabin and burn bison patties in the fireplace and spoon each other at night to keep from getting chilly. As you know Sasquatch doesn’t wipe too good so he stinks like a feedlot and Jeramiah sleeps in the buff and I’ll be the ‘meat’ in this unholy burly sandwich.
See what happens when you say you don’t like me?
And if you don’t like me, stop sending me your dirty undies. My mom’s getting suspicious.
November 1st, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Oh and I forgot, MT, I’m voting for the Ted Nugent / Pat Buchanon ticket. I mean, why shoot one moose when you can shoot them all, with a bow and arrow no less!
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:26 pm
This is long overdue, but can someone please explain to me how Obama has not been specific about his economic/foreign policies? I’ve heard various versions of the “all style and no substance” argument, but when Obama has clearly been laying out his plans in not only his recent stump speeches, the three presidential debates, and a half-hour long TV special, those people that say that don’t know what he stands for are betraying their own ignorance and laziness. I am making a grand sweeping pronouncement here, though one I feel is valid and justified: If you really are not going to vote for Obama because you “don’t know what he stands for,” you are nothing less than an imbecile. A deaf, blind, lazy, willfully ignorant imbecile. Try picking up a book or newspaper, or logging on to media websites, or even friggen youtube. I promise, I really, really promise it’s not that difficult. A caveman could do it.
I can’t wait until the end of the week. Hopefully this horseshit will be over by then, the vitriol will begin to disapate (including my own) and we can all get back to trying to eek out a living in this devastated American landscape. Sorry if I offended anyone, but if you were offended, chances are you deserved it. I willing to entertain well-reasoned counterarguments.
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Slick,
“… you are nothing less than an imbecile. A deaf, blind, lazy, willfully ignorant imbecile.”
Well then, with voters like that, probably just as well Dubya isn’t coming around for a third term!
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Do you honestly think more people will not vote for Obama because he is black than will vote for him because he is black? I find it hard to believe (then again, I am a bit sheltered to hardcore racism of the south)that if someone agrees with him, that they won’t vote for him. I just can’t see how someone could hate someone just because of their race. The chances of him getting assassinated are higher than a white president, but the security the president gets is really good. I’m not saying that it couldn’t happen, but I can’t see someone who is dumb enough to be racist be smart enough to get past secret service and the FBI. Your down home racist isn’t usually a mastermind, and is probably addicted to meth or something.
I, on the other hand, am not voting for Obama because of his stance on abortion and gun control mainly. But another thing, Obama said he wants to decrease taxes for 95% of people, but he wants to increase government spending. So basically what he is saying is that the top 5% (corporations, corporation owners, etc.) will have to not only make up for our tax break, but also pay for the new government programs. If corporations and their owners are paying much more in taxes they will have to charge more for their products, increasing the cost of living, and the corporations will have to make staff cutbacks, increasing the unemployment rate. That seems a bit off to me.
November 2nd, 2008 at 10:08 pm
MT, bucslim, etc. Lewis Black said it best “It’s no longer enough to just like the guy you are voting for, now you’ve got to hate the guy running against him.” You guys have successfully taken it to a new notch, disliking people who likes the guy who is running against the guy you like. You’re not the only ones though, my car got keyed and the window smashed because I had a McCain/Palin sticker on it. They wrote “Your stupid” not “You’re” but “your.” Now I’m left thinking, my stupid what? Darn vandalizers and their sentence fragments.
But seriously, the repair cost me $7,000, and the paint another $1000.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:01 am
In my humble opinion, the US is ready for a black president, just not this one. We (the majority of the United States) have gotten caught up with “change”. (I challenge someone to tell me what Obama stands for in the next five seconds, and change is not an acceptable answer). It has become hip to dislike, to disdain, conservatives, and Obama is in the right place in the right time with his propaganda.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:39 am
khen913,
“It has become hip to dislike, to disdain, conservatives …”
Could it be a little five-letter conservative word is responsible for that?
Dubya.
Never mind your next five seconds. As an unfranchised Englishman I have gained a great deal of insight into what Obama stands for by absorbing the studied and time-consuming explanations of Randall and others in the 727 postings above yours.
As a franchised American, have you even bothered to read them?
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:51 am
Yesterday the World of Formula One was ready for its first black champion … by one point. (Waves British flag in high delight.)
Might Lewis Hamilton be a positive augur …?
November 3rd, 2008 at 8:20 am
bucslim:
I took some time to get back to you on this because I wanted to avoid raising this any further on the hostility meter. You should know I’ve never had anything against you and to my knowledge the only time you and I have ever disagreed is in regards to this topic.
I’m quite sure I’ve spoken abrasively to you and at you when it comes to politics. But I find it rather disingenuous of you to accuse me of “insulting your intelligence” and “dissecting” your writings and such, when every time the subject of politics has come up, you’ve made it your consistent practice to speak flippantly and mockingly of those whose political stance differs from yours. Now, there’s no problem with this–it’s your right and I do the same thing. But to complain the way you are so doing here is to illustrate that you can dish it out but can’t take it.
And again you continually (and boringly) return to this mantra of referring to Obama as my “appointed messiah.” You’re usually much funnier than this. What you sound like, when you say such things, is bitter and disillusioned, and trying to convince yourself of something you suspect in your heart to be untrue. But that’s just my opinion.
However, I don’t feel I can leave it this way with someone on this site that I genuinely like. To my knowledge we’ve only ever disagreed about politics…. let’s leave it at that and let me say that I’m sorry I’ve offended you.
November 3rd, 2008 at 9:22 am
Randall, don’t feel too awfully bad. My brother is a rabid McCain supporter (I hate to use the modifier, rabid, but it is the only one which describes his attitude properly).
A couple of weeks ago we were discussing a certain topic on the election, and it involved the left-wing journalistic coverage…this was all by e.mail. I was explaining what was going on, and why I disagreed with it.
He wrote back saying he was confused, that I was at one moment supporting them, and at the next saying I disagree.
He has become so blinded by McCain, that he can no longer tell the difference between an explanation and support!
We ended up agreeing to give each others news source a one week trial, to see where the other was coming from. His choice was a particular talking head on Fox. Mine was CNBC .
I haven’t changed, and I doubt he has…it was a moot point, I’d voted two weeks ago.
Is it any wonder we do not have the closest relationship?
November 3rd, 2008 at 9:37 am
I’d like to touch on what Phender said…
First of all, I’m sorry you had to go through that. Second, what is wrong with people? There was a story in the paper about a man who kept getting his McCain sign stolen, so he electrifed it and ended up shocking a nine year old who was trying to steal it and replace it with an Obama sign. (He was fine, but still)
On Halloween, I found an Obama sticker on the floor and decided it shouldn’t be there and it would be a good idea to rip it up. Now, I was a bit impaired, so maybe it wasn’t to absolute best choice, but I certainly wasn’t implying I wanted to kill/maim/harm Obama HIMSELF, just the sticker. Almost immediately I was callest a racist bitch and nearly got into a fight.
I just don’t understand. I support John McCain, but not enough to put myself in harms way for him. I don’t support Obama for President, but he’s a perfectly fine man and I wouldn’t attempt to shock people who do like him. It’s all just getting out of hand..I want it to be Wednesday.
November 3rd, 2008 at 9:51 am
segue:
I sympathize. I rarely discuss politics with my siblings. We never seem to understand each other and we never seem to be in sync.
There was surely always a gulf between Republicans and Democrats. My family were Rockefeller Republicans back in the day, and so occasionally voted liberal. But there were also those who were more… Nixonian in their outlook, and we of course know very well the polarization that existed between the opposite ends of the political spectrum in the Sixties. Even so, it seems to me that some deeper distancing and polarization between Right and Left has gone on in our society since the 80s. Why this should be I don’t know, since if anything it seems to my eyes that the Left has moved more towards the Center (by necessity) than it was, say, in the 60s and 70s. Yet the Right still seems to have the same demonization of the Left screwed into its brain. In truth they could find a lot of common ground, the two political poles. But I think the problem stems from who took over the Republican party in the *wake* of Reagan–religious extremists, populists, and exclusionary thugs. To the point today where they can’t even come up with new ideas or even a new rhetoric—they’re living out the McCarthy era, instead, dismissing Obama as a “socialist” and trying to tie him to some kind of “anti-Americanism.” It’s bizarre, and smells desperate (and pathetic). I think it’s because the party abandoned its soul and philosophy, gradually, in the 90s, and fully dropped both into the tank under W.
My feeling is, if the Republican party wants to save itself and regain its soul, it needs to lose and lose BIG in this election–and not just lose the presidency, but to lose more seats in the House and Senate, and lose as much ground in the States as possible. And then to take that big loss home and think about it, and learn from it, and come back a tad to the Center.
November 3rd, 2008 at 9:55 am
Callie:
Yeah… a lot of the civility has gone out of politics. Not that there was that much in it to begin with…
November 3rd, 2008 at 10:14 am
Randall – all cool then man. You have raised my blood pressure on a few things here dude, but I’m fine with a simple disagreement. I am flippant and I do mock others, mainly to get a few yuks from myself and hopefully others. (check out my recent reply to MT 722-23) But I was getting a little chafed in my undies with some of your responses. Gold Bond medicated powder and your apology clears everything up nicely.
Let me say the same to you, I’m sorry I got all huffy and snotty. I have a tendency to go overboard with obtuse puns, cranky observations and gruff replies. I hope we can disagree more politely in the future. You’re a smart guy, I’m just trying to keep up with you on an alternative viewpoint. And I don’t mind saying it’s steady work!
I’ll end my thoughts by saying I have NEVER been much of a McCain supporter. I don’t particularly care for the guy, but I think he’s honorable and certainly qualified. I’m basing my vote on liberal/non liberal politics. And I think I’ve made it clear that I’m cynical of just about any elected official. I don’t think the Republicans put up much of a fight in the primaries – mainly because the choices were admittedly pretty weak, so we ended up with him.
Peace – may the best man win.
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:25 am
bucslim:
Thank you for being gracious.
And I’ll say the same on my end… I can see where some people might feel they just don’t have much of a choice in this election… they don’t like McCain, but are turned off by Obama’s policies, and perhaps what they perceive as his inexperience.
But as I’ve said, I don’t think the experience thing is a real issue–it’s a chimera. He’s a smart guy and obviously capable. And how many presidents really ARE all that experienced when they go into that job? Brains and coolness and quickness make up for a lot. Whereas Palin–is clearly just an idiot. She’s not bright, she just knows how to handle herself in public. I honestly feel with great confidence that Obama can handle the job. And I honestly feel with terrible certainty that Palin could not.
The other stuff–I can see being turned off by Obama’s policies, of course. Now, they don’t turn ME off… because I think it’s time to bring the country back to the Center. But of course I can concede that people might agree, sure, that the last eight years have been awful–but still might not want to turn the other way.
I DO understand this. However…
I don’t see another alternative at this time. It always happens this way in our history—certain “movements” or philosophies or ways of doing things play themselves out—and then something new has to come in and smash it and rebuild the paradigm. Capitalism isn’t going away, it’s not going to be shunted into the trash heap of history… but it has flaws that we have to recognize and work on, we’ve now seen. Otherwise it seems to work. But it’s not just some free-running system that can self-manage. It’s a tool, is all. And like any tool, it needs management and watching over, otherwise it just runs nuts and causes havoc. Imagine starting up your car and then just putting it gear and and sending it down the road. I mean, somebody needs to be driving the damn thing. You just don’t want to keep building things into the car to make it run worse and worse… you wanna keep it tuned up and running well and efficiently… but still *under your control.* Once upon a time we placed too many restrictions on it, and the thing was sputtering and crapping out on us. But in recent years we’ve gone too far the other way and not only poured rocket fuel into an engine not meant to take it, but then we got out of the driver seat and let it go crazy. It’s no freaking wonder we hit a wall.
As for the other stuff—we’re looking at a world where things are changing—we’re gradually accepting a LOT of things that were unacceptable 50-100 years ago. And we’re facing the fact that health care IS something like a “right” and we ought to damn well do something about it–and we’re behind the curve on that one. And we’re coming back to the idea that America is a society, not just a brand name, and we owe something to each other, we can’t let the society be riven in two between “rich” and “poor” to the point where there’s this huge gulf between them—because while that might satisfy our instinct towards self-determination, it ends up undermining the democracy badly.
See, I love this country, I always have. I’m proud of it, I’m proud to be an American, I’m proud my ancestors came here instead of staying in Europe and taking it. But because of all this, I fear for the state of our democracy and for the state of the republic. While part of me agrees that self-determination and self-responsibility is key, I also am forced to recognize that we all have to live with one another AND keep a successful, viable society going. Nobody’s ever tried before what we’ve been trying for the last 200+ years. We’re inventing this as we go along. And to my eyes some cracks have started to appear that need some attention and some repairing… otherwise, in time, the whole thing could come crashing down. And I don’t want that. The IDEA of America is still the best and most sublimely wonderful idea mankind has ever come up with. I don’t want to see it fail. But it’s headed there if we don’t drag the thing back onto the path.
Sorry for the speechmaking. It just explains why I feel the way I do and why I think taking the keys out of the hands of the Republicans is needed at this time. They’re like drunken frat boys at a party, and we can’t allow them to drive any longer. Even if the other guys might or might not be great drivers—at least they’re not hammered.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:33 pm
I’ll end my thoughts by saying I have NEVER been much of a McCain supporter.
buc – never trust a guy who can’t high-five
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
kiwi – (insert smiley icon) yeah.
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Randall,
My gut feeling tells me you’re right about the so-called lack of experience not necessarily being critical. I think we could look back into history for a number of fine leaders who seemed to be handicapped by that limitation at the time of their initiation. Perhaps recently in my own country Blair might have come under that suspicion to begin with. If so, he surpassed it, certainly for most of his time in office.
Confidence, intelligence, positive ideas, innate leadership ability, self-belief and personality can surely more than compensate. Perhaps a fairly clean slate might also come up with fresher writing.
Yesterday I read in one of our newspapers a comment by a US journalist who had spent time in Brazil. He remarked that Lula and W had something dull in common, a lack of intellectual curiosity. I don’t think Obama can be accused of that.
Finally, he seems to me to radiate one particularly important and inspirational quality: hope.
November 3rd, 2008 at 6:17 pm
734. Randall: I agree, a BIG loss is the only thing that will really get the attention of the big C, big R, Conservative right-wing Republicans.
It might also get the attention of the big L, Liberal Democrats. That much power is, or should be, a sobering fact.
Whatever happens, it’s time to recenter this nation. Time to come to grips with the fact that we’re in big trouble, and it took us 8 years to get here. It will take several years to get *out* of trouble.
November 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Anyone have any information on the so-called “dirty tricks” being played out? Is this something new? Is it one party more than the other?
I find it funny that within a week of each other, the World Series ends and the months and months of campaigning ends, yet they play out similarly. Whether it’s voting or sports, we need to find a way to villianize another “team” and throw all your support in. At least the election seems to be gaining more momentum than the World Series did. (Frankly, I didn’t care. The one team I support was out with the championship.)
Well, hopefully by this time tomorrow, we can all sit back and sigh in relief that it’s over. Whomever wins, we should all just remember that they are not “The Devil” or will bring on the end of the world, just help to shape politics in the next 4 years. Sure, that can create a huge dent in many aspects of our lives (see 2001-present), but we’ll be back here in four years anyway.
Have fun, bring something to entertain yourselves in the likely to be long line that awaits you, and may the best man win.
November 4th, 2008 at 12:26 am
Hey, you guys need to go on you tube and type in Sarah Palin got pranked. These radio guys from Montreal got a hold of her by acting like the president of France. F her. Shes an IDIOT. And yes the USA is ready for a black president. I’m goin to the polls today, and Obama has my vote.
November 4th, 2008 at 5:34 am
In a few hours this thread will be academic because we will have a Black President. We will also have:
1) A better tax/econimic plan for most Americans
2) A military focused on finding and killing the real terrorist trying to destroy the US.
3) More respect from both allies and enemies from around the World.
4) A real example of how anyone, regardless of their background can be President.
5) More hope and optimism for the future of our Country.
VOTE TODAY!! OBAMA/BIDEN!! VOTE TODAY!
November 4th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Go Obama!! Yes we are ready and he will be president today!!!! He gives me hope that we ( African Americans) and anyone male, female or any given race can be anything we want to be!
November 4th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
4) A real example of how anyone, regardless of their background can be President.
Lincoln grew up working on a farm, barely able to read and write.
Bill Clinton was partially raised by his grocer grandparents while his single mother (his father died) was in nursing school.
Despite my party preferences, we can all agree these were two good presidents, who were both much better (in my opinion) than Obama can hope to be. People already HAVE examples of people overcoming odds to be President.
Also:
5) More hope and optimism for the future of our Country.
I got that by voting McCain about an hour ago.
Don’t even get me started on the other ones. Shouldn’t be hard to find the terrorist when you’re friends with him already..
November 4th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
NOBAMA
NOBAMA
NOBAMA
NOBAMA
NOBAMA
NOBAMA
NOBAMA
NOBAMA
Vote McCain/Palin 2008
November 4th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Sorry Callie, we can’t all agree on the Clinton Presidency.
November 4th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
745. Quiana – Go Obama!! Yes we are ready and he will be president today!!!! He gives me hope that we ( African Americans) and anyone male, female or any given race can be anything we want to be!
Really? You hadn’t already gotten that message from Clarence Thomas? Oprah? Thomas Sowell? Bill Cosby? Venus and/or Serena Williams? Condi Rice?
November 4th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
742. Cedestra: Anyone have any information on the so-called “dirty tricks” being played out? Is this something new?
****
Absolutely NOT! My personal memories of Presidential campaigns go back to 1960, and I can recall, not so much dirty tricks as dirty campaigning. Jack Kennedy was Roman Catholic, so Dick Nixon, and the GOP, spread the word that if Kennedy was elected the White House would be operated by the Vatican. It didn’t work, of course, but there it was.
During Nixon’s Presidency, dirty tricks were the norm.
We’ve had a string of underhanded politicians, but before Nixon, as far as my history reading has taken me, while they might not have been the greatest Presidents, they weren’t “dirty”…with a few exceptions…the problem, Cedestra, is that the kind of man (or woman) who wants to be President, is power hungry.
You’ve heard the old maxim:
Power corrupts. Absolute power, corrupts absolutely.
Of course, that isn’t universally true, not everyone who seeks the Presidency is power-mad. Some are just honestly altruistic.
All in all though, dirty tricks are the norm. Expect them. You won’t be disappointed.
November 4th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Well, obviously so.
November 4th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
segue,
“During Nixon’s Presidency, dirty tricks were the norm.”
And so ‘Tricky Dickie’! Hey Presto!
November 4th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
This posted a few hours before the result will be known.
It occurs to me a fun LV exercise in say a year or two’s time might be to take the Top 10 pro and Top 10 anti LV quotes (and I mean essentially thought-provoking, not rabid comments) about the winning candidate as a topic.
They might be drawn from those above combined with others from Who Should be Next President.
They would, of course, be attributed to their respective posters in their full glory. Probably as one quote per contributer. Then there could be a free-for-all over them based on the performance to that time of Obama or McCain, whoever.
November 4th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
obama 08! sorry rednecks.
November 4th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Nixon has been smeared as “Tricky” partly because “Tricky” rhymes with “Dicky”. (Did anyone actually call him “Dicky” to his face?) “Tricky Lyndon” or “Tricky Gerald” would just never have caught on.
November 4th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Obama won. He’s in!!!
November 4th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
284 to 146 electoral votes. Blew McCain away!!!
November 4th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Yes, time to congratulate President Obama.
So, to answer the question: Apparently yes, the US IS READY for a black president!
November 4th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Well your humble commenter bucslim has been proven wrong. I wish Obama good luck. He’s gonna need it.
To all of my adversaries and opponents here on our beloved web site, all is well, well maybe not ‘all.’ (I lost a shit wagon of my retirement money in the stock market) Here’s hoping the President Elect will cut me a break, instead of rewarding all the scallywag corrupt bankers, insurance and brokerage firms for pissing away my golden years, maybe he can bail my ass out when I’m at Shady Acres Retirement home Chronically Incontinent in his ’share the wealth’ plan.
Cheers, congrats, I’m not a sore loser. The sun will come up tomorrow (everybody!) betchor bottom dollar (unless it’s in stocks) That tomorrow, they’ll be sun . . .
November 4th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
I absolutely never thought I would see this day. I am dumbfounded. All I can say is “wow”!
November 4th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
liquidfire- who do you think you are. you are more bigoted with that statement than anyone of the “rednecks”.
with that said, we will now find out if America is ready for a black president. this will be an interesting four years just because we have never seen this before.
November 4th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
In response to your question, “Is the US ready for a Black President”, yes. We are ready
November 4th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
In response to your question, “Is the US ready for a Black President”, yes. We are ready.
November 4th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
lmao
November 4th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Woo Hoo! What an emotional day for the U.S. Hopefully some of our credibility and respect will be restored during Obama’s presidency. I voted for the first time today, and I hope I, and the rest of us that voted Obama, made the right choice. We shall see.
November 5th, 2008 at 3:55 am
Coming! Ready or not!!
November 5th, 2008 at 5:49 am
Does anyone remember a time when the pundits were predicting a Rice v H Clinton election?
November 5th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Really? You hadn’t already gotten that message from Clarence Thomas? Oprah? Thomas Sowell? Bill Cosby? Venus and/or Serena Williams? Condi Rice?
rushfan – well said.
November 5th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Congratulations USA!
Oh…and good luck with that $1 trillion trade deficit
But, seriously, you made a good choice. Let’s hope for a White House we can all, globally, respect again…free of nepotism and underhandedness (and, maybe, a fresh injection of common sense into various human rights-restricting legislation and practices).
Go Obama!
November 5th, 2008 at 8:13 am
buc – sorry about that pension plan, my friend. No solace…but you’re not alone there, believe me.
And, BTW, not all bankers are corrupt scallywags
November 5th, 2008 at 8:31 am
kiwi – the fact that not all bankers are scallywags doesn’t cure my incontinence. Or weak stream or incomplete emptying or going often or sexual complications due to taking my medicine or the pee spot I get after going.
November 5th, 2008 at 9:18 am
#749, Rushfan. Nice try to piss on my parade but it AINT gonna work, and yes I did say AINT. Of course I got the same message from the others, but we have came so far that everytime we get to add a new one to the list of its not only a celebration but its absolutely AMAZING. OBAMA!!!!!! Say it with me O B A M A!! Say what you want it AINT gonna get you no where with me, Im not one of the regular hot heads thats gonna write a novel to prove a point. On that no… OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
November 5th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Asked and answered!
November 5th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Quiana ~ I had no intention of pissing on your anything, let alone your parade. Also, I live in Texas, “aint” is part of our official vocabulary.
My point was simpy that while it is obviously momentous for a black person to become leader of the free world, you made it sound like you felt like you *couldn’t* already be anything youy wanted to be. Which, of course, you could.
Okay, so Obama is president-elect. Congrats to him and his supporters. While I ackowledge the historic nature of the election of a black person, I do not feel obligated to support him.
If true conservatism had been on the ballot, we might have had a fighting chance. But, alas, republicans got stuck with McCain, who did not represent me any more than Obama. While I disagree vehemently with Obama on many issues and we live by a different ideology, only time will tell what kind of president he will choose to be *and* what kind of president congress will allow him to be.
Kiwiboi ~ I think we might be “globally respected” already by the people who realize 1.how much money we spend helping nations in need after natural disasters (Iran, China, Pakistan, etc.) 2.American citizens on their own go abroad to provide assistance world-wide (doctors w/out borders, etc.) 3. We provide military assistance to nations in need (think Kuwait) I could go on and on and on. We do not need to alter our behavior to be more “popular.” Popularity is overrated. Terrorists want to kill us (and you) because of our freedom and what we choose to do with it. Not because of who is president of the US.
November 5th, 2008 at 11:49 am
We’ll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song
I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
We don’t get fooled again
The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that’s all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain’t changed
‘Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war
I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
We don’t get fooled again
No, no!
I’ll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I’ll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?
There’s nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight
I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
We don’t get fooled again
Don’t get fooled again
No, no!
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
November 5th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Rushfan: You are sadly deluded if you think that Americans are respected abroad. Why then would so many of you pretend to be Canadian when traveling?
Congratulations to the American public. 8 years of only looking after big business and the wealthy has damn near driven you to the ground. Hopefully your new administration will take heed.
November 5th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
I WANT TO SAY TO RANDALL, THANK GOD FOR AMERICANS LIKE YOU, FOR MONTHS NOW I HAVE PAID ATTENTION TO THE THINGS YOU HAVE SAID, AND YOU HAVE INSPIRED ME TO GET INVOLED WITH THIS ELECTION. I HOPE EVERY SINGLE DAY A CHILD IS BORN INTO AMERICA, WILL HAVE JUST HALF OF YOUR INTELLIGENCE …….. I AM A BLACK BEAUTIFUL WOMEN, AND HAVE ALWAYS SAW THROUGH COLOR. I HATED LIVING IN THE SOUTH, BECAUSE I’M ALWAYS IN AN INTERRACIAL RELATIONSHIP. PEOPLE HERE STILL FIND IT UNACCEPTABLE, BUT NOW I FEEL A BARRIER HAVE BEEN BROKEN, AND SOME WHITE AMERICANS WILL LOOK DEEPER THAN JUST COLOR. WE ARE ALL AMERICANS. I DON’T WANT TO GET RELIGION, BUT ONE OF THE LAST COMMANDMENTS WAS TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER…… I’M WAITNG….. ANYWAY THANK YOU RANDALL.
November 5th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
OK, liquidfire, we’re all relived this thing is over so we can get on with our lives, but. . . ease up on the caps lock will ya?
November 5th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
BUCSLIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, THAT WAS FOR RANDALLLLLLLLLLL. I LOVE YOU BUCSLIMMMMMMMMMMM. LOL.
November 5th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
liquidfire:
Thank you very much, I’m touched. Honestly.
Whatever any of us think of Obama, I do think that what we’re seeing here is something historic: the beginning of the slow death of racism in the United States. (And good riddance). I mean, I don’t want to sound airy-fairy here… racism is still strong and still with us, and it’ll still have a long life, I’m quite sure. But it’s caught a bad cough now, let’s put it that way.
I was with my kids Election Night… we were driving to a local mall, listening to the radio reports of the early returns. The announcement came that Obama had won Pennsylvania–the only REAL chance had for McCain was to take Penn away from Barack, so McCain had failed and it was now more likely that McCain would lose–and I let out a big “YES!!!”
My fourteen year old daughter laughed, and asked what it meant that Obama had won Pennsylvania. I explained it, and she nodded affirmatively in silent agreement that this was an excellent development.
Then I remembered something I’d heard on the radio a couple days before. (I wish I could remember who said this/wrote it—but I can’t, sorry) Now… this is corny, I admit, but I also admit that I have a big soft spot in my heart for corny stuff like this.
“Rosa sat so Martin could walk. Martin walked so Obama could run. Obama ran so my children could fly.”
My daughter’s initial response was an approving, “that’s awesome.”
Then there was a pause and she said, “dad. You *do* realize you’re not black, right?”
November 5th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
THAT WAS SOOOOOOO FUNNY. YOUR LITTLE GIRL, OUR FUTURE.
November 5th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
rushfan:
I have to back Mom up on this, rush. To an extent. The fact is that all three of you are correct: kiwiboi, you, and Mom.
The point you miss is that regardless of ANYTHING good the US has done in the past—including right up to today—the policies, attitudes, and behavior of the Bush administration has tarnished our image badly. WE ourselvs may feel that we mean well in the world. We may demonstrate this, we feel, to what should be the satisfaction of any reasonable persons. BUT the rest of the world is not obliged to agree with our point of view in this regard, if it feels that, regardless of some good deeds we do, we are also behaving arrogantly and imperiously.
Now, you might not agree that we’ve been behaving thusly—but the fact is that world opinion has leaned heavily towards the view that we *have* for the last few years. Is the rest of the world just deluded?
No, clearly not. The simple truth is that most of the world appreciates the United States and all it does… but like any of us, no matter how *nice* a benefactor can be, we don’t like it when said benefactor begins to act in ways which appear imperious and harsh, and perhaps self-serving.
But we’ve already seen in the world reactions to Obama’s election that the world, for the most part, doesn’t hate us—it simply wants the US back the way it was before Bush–a good partner, a fair and just friend, a reliable force for good.
November 5th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
“You are sadly deluded if you think that Americans are respected abroad. Why then would so many of you pretend to be Canadian when traveling?”
I dunno. Maybe because crazy people would kill us just for being American. Just a guess. There is nothing we can do to stop terrorists or crazy random people from hating Americans. Also, you couldn’t pay me to claim to be Canadian. Oh, and *you* are sadly deluded if you think that Canadians are respected in America.
November 5th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
mate, its not just terrorists and crazy people who hate americans…
November 5th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I think we might be “globally respected” already by the people who realize 1.how much money we spend helping nations in need after natural disasters (Iran, China, Pakistan, etc.)
rushfan – really? Of the 22 UN Development Program nations providing foreign aid to developing nations and to fight extreme poverty, guess where the USA stands in the official rankings? Let me tell you : 21st.
And if you want some additional perspective, for each dollar donated as aid, the US spends $32 on defence. Oh, and a hefty proportion of US aid goes to Israel.
2.American citizens on their own go abroad to provide assistance world-wide (doctors w/out borders, etc.)
Which is, of course, true. But it is true of most developed nations.
3. We provide military assistance to nations in need (think Kuwait)
Kuwait? True; but it is equally true for Russia, the UK, and other nations…all of whom maintain formal defence relationships with Kuwait. And if you are referring to the 1990 liberation, let me remind you that the liberators comprised a multinational coalition.
And, of course, the magnanimity that the US (and the UK amongst others) maintains for Kuwait has nothing, of course, to do with those enormous oil and gas reserves…
I could go on and on and on. We do not need to alter our behavior to be more “popular.” Popularity is overrated.
Who mentioned “popularity”? Because I didn’t.
Terrorists want to kill us (and you) because of our freedom and what we choose to do with it. Not because of who is president of the US.
Firstly, I never even implied that terrorists hate the US because of who the president is; where did this come from?
And, if you really believe that terrorists want to kill us because of “our freedom” then you are being deliberately fucking stupid (and I say “deliberately”, because I know from reading your postings from time to time that you are very far from stupid). Start by reading some authoritative histories of the middle east if you want a clue to why terrorists hate the USA (Britain, too, I hasten to add).
And I trust you’ll forgive me for my cynicism when I remind you about the thousands of fools in New York City, in particular, who would happily sing Danny Boy and donate funds to the IRA every Friday night in their drunken state because their dear old great-great grandmother emigrated from Ireland. Well, I was in London as those particular terrorists were regularly letting off bombs purchased with those funds and which indiscriminately killed innocent people. Strange how the romance of this particular type of charitable giving dried up after NYC got a taste of it on 9/11. Don’t moralise to me about the US and terrorism.
And my comments regarding respect for the White House is more to do with clearing out the last 8 years of the grotesque erosions of civil liberties that Bush’s example has led a number of western governments to inflict on their citizens since 9/11 (you Americans can look to the Patriot Act, Extraordinary Rendition, Gitmo, torture etc), blatant nepotism (that lady friend of Bush’s he wanted as a Supreme Court judge / Cheney and his buddies seemingly dipping their bread etc.) and other ancillary practices (Plame etc) that have tainted the White House. Let’s (UK included) welcome the likelihood that we will get some integrity and respect back into government.
Overall, I think that Obama is a charismatic and honest guy; a breath of fresh air. America needs these qualities now, more than ever, in its president…Republican or Democrat.
November 5th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Partner, we Americans don’t live our lives to be liked by people who know nothing about us. Buddy, people who come to America from oppressed lands across the globe appreciate the joys and wonders and freedom of America and diversity of Americans. You are free to hate, friend, but it’s not gonna get you anywhere. Cheers.
November 5th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
But we’ve already seen in the world reactions to Obama’s election that the world, for the most part, doesn’t hate us—it simply wants the US back the way it was before Bush–a good partner, a fair and just friend, a reliable force for good.
Randall – amen to that.
November 5th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
^^ that was for Anna11
November 5th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
I’ll finally be relieved when Mr. Bush is gone for good, I wish Inauguration day was sooner. I hope Bush decides to stay out of politics for good and maybe go back to baseball or something, although the Movie “W.” was fairly entertaining even though it was ficionalized. It would be best for him and the rest of the world if he retires. Congratulations to Barack Obama!
November 5th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Yes we can. Yes we DID.
The majority of America is ready for a black president, based on the fact that we have elected him.
Now we just need to lock him away somewhere surrounded by Secret Service men so some psycho can’t go and prove me wrong.
November 5th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I am SO proud of my country!
November 6th, 2008 at 5:58 am
Rushfan; Not respected maybe, but envious, you bet. Ask a few of the regulars who cannot afford to go to a doctor let alone the specialists that they require. Funny how an American states that they have no respect for Canadians; probably why the rest of the world holds us in such high regard. XD
November 6th, 2008 at 6:06 am
Oh and I answered my own question. American’s pretend to be Canadians because they can’t nail that Kiwi accent.
November 6th, 2008 at 6:19 am
American’s pretend to be Canadians because they can’t nail that Kiwi accent.
Mom – LOL !!
November 6th, 2008 at 6:28 am
Ah, Canada… Sometimes I wish I still lived there.
Must say, as I have just gotten the news that my Christmas may very well be spent on a plane headed for Iraq, that I am overjoyed with the selection of Obama for president. I volunteered for the service, so I can’t really complain about the fact that I must deploy… But I must admit; I’m scared shitless (pardon my language).
I can only hope that he has the chance to improve our country’s image, as we so desperately need. And I won’t go into deep detail, but I vastly agree with all that was said in Kiwiboi’s post at number 785.
November 6th, 2008 at 7:01 am
Must say, as I have just gotten the news that my Christmas may very well be spent on a plane headed for Iraq, that I am overjoyed with the selection of Obama for president. I volunteered for the service, so I can’t really complain about the fact that I must deploy… But I must admit; I’m scared shitless (pardon my language).
Anon. E. Mouse – I’m real sorry to hear about the timing. As for being “scared shitless”…well, you’re a human being, uniform or not…it’s part of the job description. I’d be worried if you weren’t apprehensive. Besides, think of how much sweeter coming home will feel!
And I won’t go into deep detail, but I vastly agree with all that was said in Kiwiboi’s post at number 785.
Nice of you to say. The ironic thing is that, politically, rushfan and myself are probably closely compatible; I’m very right-wing and libertarian, yet people keep mistaking me for a damn lefty-liberal!
Anyhows, Anon., and more importantly, I hope they rethink that unfortunate deployment date; and be sure to keep us all up to date with developments.
November 6th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Anon E. Mouse – thank you for your sacrifice. You have my admiration and respect.
November 6th, 2008 at 8:25 am
A Black President? NO, he’s an American President!!! Just like all the previous President’s!!! He just happens to have some “so-called” Black ancestry. I’m sure if you ask him, he will say he’s an American first!
November 6th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Hi Kiwiboi! Just read your post #785. Not bad. I’ll add some info to what you had posted. Approx. 10 years ago, we, the U.S. military, went down to a South American country and killed more than 30,000 people to bring an “drug” lord to trial here. I believe it made the back page of the New York Times…maybe. So the U.S. must first stop participating in “terrorism”, before we condemn it! Perhaps with Obama as President, and Democrats in more influencial position, the “warmongering” of the U.S. will finally come to a halt.
November 6th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Perhaps with Obama as President, and Democrats in more influencial position, the “warmongering” of the U.S. will finally come to a halt.
B Wise – I think you’ll find that if the events you describe happened, as you say, 10 years ago, you had a Democrat as your President.
Not