They came from all sections of society. Some were musicians, others politicians and some others were just commuters on a bus. From a cellist in Bosnia to an Atlanta preacher via a Vietnamese monk, we select protests which have shaped the public imagination…
‘The way they are treating my people in the South’, said Louis Armstrong,’ the government can go to hell.’ The virtuoso trumpeter was asked to go to the Soviet Union as a goodwill ambassador, representing the United States in an effort to showcase the truly American art form. Infuriated at the thought of being the flag bearer of a country which did not treat his people as equal citizens, (the events at Little Rock did not impress him too much, especially President Eisenhower’s apathy) smiling Satchmo refused to go. He then continued to do what he did so marvelously-bring joy to millions worldwide.
It is one of the most brilliant expressions of discontent. In a stinging rebuke of the idea that present time was not right for civil transformation, Dr King drew on his theological education and corroborated his arguments with astute political thought. ’Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will’, he said in perhaps the most important defense of nonviolent demonstration- a landmark achievement in the civil rights movement for equality and justice.
Its rather impossible to explain courage, but we know it when we see. Because if a man does not take antiretroviral injections until four million of his fellow South Africans have access to the same, it exemplifies the moral rectitude of the man. And no, we are not talking about some common cold here. Zackie Achmat, the HIV positive campaigner is said to have said about his actions:”I don’t think it’s noble, I think it’s dumb. But it’s a conscience issue. It’s not something I advocate for anyone else.” But the man is no novice at protest. At the tender age of fourteen, he tried to set his Soweto school on fire in opposition to the Apartheid government. Zackie Achmat proved that protests do not have to belong to everybody. Sometimes, a few is enough.
Yes, they blast it out from the chai shops in Kathmandu. Yuppies in Rhode Island and Maine can sing it verbatim and it is requested at karaoke bars in Tokyo and Nagoya, but its the universal appeal of the song-a rallying cry for all those beleaguered souls to shake off that slumber and take action against injustice that has stirred the souls of people worldwide. What was most remarkable about the dreadlocked reggae artist from Jamaica was the emotions he could engender in the hearts and minds of people by just being himself. The words were simple, but the meaning attached was as profound as ever-an antidote for pain as he later called it. Years later, Amnesty International declared it as their battle cry and it plays in the heads of students in Tehran and Beijing, sans the Jamaican twang, of course.
Before Dr King there was Gandhi and before Gandhi was Henry Thoreau. ”I cannot for an instant recognize that political organization as my government which is the slave’s government also”, he said in his defense for refusing to pay poll tax. And thus in Concord, Massachusetts a tool was invented which was to deliver independence to India and Pakistan, break down segregation in the United States and dismantle apartheid in South Africa. Thoreau gave voice to the idea of non conformity-the idea that every moral being by nature does not belong to a party, and thus had the power to rebel- and most importantly, on his or her own terms.
In the midst of the siege on his beloved Sarajevo, Vedran Smailovic played his cello for 22 days-one day for each person killed when they waited for bread. The picture of this 36 year old cellist- dressed in garb suitable for a night out at the opera in the midst of rubble is as poignant as they come. No, it didn’t change the outcome of the war- Serb snipers ravaged Sarajevo incessantly for days before a ceasefire was established-but his emotional defiance was a tribute to all those nameless souls who suffer endlessly but always with dignity.
He walked for 240 miles, never wavering in the quest. Crowds followed the ‘half naked fakir’ -it was worth it if he could somehow conjure up the independence they deserved. ‘I want world sympathy in this battle of Right against Might’, he declared to the New York Times on his way to the coast. He arrived on April 5th, 1930 at that now hallowed site of Dandi in his home state of Gujarat, raised a lump of salty mud and said, “With this, I am shaking the foundations of the British Empire.” Seventeen years later, the edifice came crashing down.
How far can one go to take a stand? Apparently, far enough to the point of self-immolation. In protest against the persecution of Buddhists by the Ngô Đình Diệm government, Thích Quảng Đức immolated himself in the presence of his fellow practitioners. “I was to see that sight again, but once was enough. Flames were coming from a human being; his body was slowly withering and shriveling up, his head blackening and charring. In the air was the smell of burning human flesh; human beings burn surprisingly quickly. Behind me I could hear the sobbing of the Vietnamese who were now gathering. I was too shocked to cry, too confused to take notes or ask questions, too bewildered to even think… As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him”, wrote David Halberstam, on witnessing the event. JFK called it the most important news picture in history. And to think it was through the sacrifice of a simple Buddhist monk…
The year was 1955. Tired of giving in, Rosa Louise McCauley Parks refused to budge from her seat when asked to give it up for a white passenger on a winters day in Montgomery, Alabama. From that moment on, she was thrust into the spotlight as an example of courage and dignity and became the “Mother of the Modern-Day Civil Rights Movement.” Decorated several times during her life for the moral integrity she showed on that December day, Rosa Parks rose from simple civil servant in the NAACP to personify the ideal that all men are created equal. We are told to stand up for for our rights-the pint sized black woman did exactly that, albeit by sitting down.
Nameless and faceless he emerged from obscurity, a single soul against the might of the Peoples Republic of China while its leaders were reviewing the crisis in the Great Hall. It is in the midst of protest that he showed the world the power of one as he maneuvered his body with the tanks and picked up an altercation with the soldier. Its the most enduring image of protest of our times-raw effrontery in the face of tyranny-a single man whose courage lasted five minutes more. Some say he came in from the villages. Others said he was a Beijing resident. It didn’t matter. He will be forever remembered as the ‘Tank man.’


























1 lala
December 21st, 2009 at 1:31 am
wow. didn’t know about quite a few of them. awesome list about some amazing people.
2 The boy from troy
December 21st, 2009 at 1:35 am
I saw #3 on the cover album of some band..can’t remember which..
3 El the erf
December 21st, 2009 at 1:38 am
I have seen that before, the monk immolating himself…dunno.. on this site probably
but hey! great list
And Dash,please show up today.
Your lists are there always but you aren’t.
4 beethoven
December 21st, 2009 at 1:41 am
[deleted]
5 Josh
December 21st, 2009 at 1:42 am
#3 – Rage Against the Machine.
Btw. I am tank man.
6 The boy from troy
December 21st, 2009 at 1:44 am
There was this Rajiv Goswami of India who attempted self-immolation against Prime Minister V.P. Singh’s implementation of the Mandal Commission laws for Affirmative Action (reservation) recommendations. It was a very significant protest for all those believing in ‘equality for all’.
7 defil3r
December 21st, 2009 at 1:47 am
wow……
great list butt
bobmarley had dread locks
not dead locks
8 datalore
December 21st, 2009 at 1:47 am
@ The boy from troy. #3 was the cover of Rage Against the Machine’s first album
9 defil3r
December 21st, 2009 at 1:47 am
@Josh (5):
sigh,
10 zlorwf
December 21st, 2009 at 1:48 am
Great list, but it’s a shame that many protestors that have given their lives for their causes without using violence isn’t mentioned in the list. They are the highest shape of human form.
11 pete
December 21st, 2009 at 1:50 am
Really enjoyable list, good to see one about heroes. Of course, I have to wonder: Jesus?
12 El the erf
December 21st, 2009 at 1:51 am
Notable Omission :
Journalist Muntadar al-Zeidi throws his shoes at George W Bush
Cheers!
13 Avi
December 21st, 2009 at 1:53 am
Honestly I am not so sure Rosa Parks should be so high up on this list. Her action was small and she was not really an amazing activist in any way. The Tank Man was a real hero but Rosa Parks was an over rated figure head.
14 get a clue
December 21st, 2009 at 2:03 am
We reveal our ignorance and pettiness each in our own way. Thanks, Avi, for revealing yours.
Excellent list. Of courses, there’s always room for mature debate, room for more entries, room for interpretation. Each list must be a bit subjective; it’s unavoidable. This listwriter has made a sincere effort to span the globe and cite a variety of inspirational sources true to the list’s thesis. Very good work!
15 Chandramouli
December 21st, 2009 at 2:09 am
‘deadlocked’ or ‘dreadlocked’ ?
16 The Squire
December 21st, 2009 at 2:10 am
Henry Thoreau (6) refusing to shave his neck beard despite public ridicule was one of the great protests and helped the cause of beardism profoundly
17 Jack Deth
December 21st, 2009 at 2:11 am
Great list, it does the heart good to see that even in the face of overwhelming odds, some exceptional people will stand their ground.
I’d like to think that there’s a bit of that spirit in us all.
18 T
December 21st, 2009 at 2:14 am
Love this list, especially number one. The picture is heartbreaking.
19 brosiusjb
December 21st, 2009 at 2:14 am
Parks was the Genesis and a participant in the great Montgomery Bus Boycott. A massive grass roots campaign formed and perfect strangers showed up at bus stops and filled their cars and took people to work, etc. In that context she is aptly placed. Also the man who self immolated himself just outside Robert Mcnamara’s window at The Pentagon protesting the Vietnam war is another example of stunning protest. I assure the world that while some of we Americans seem war-hungry and, well, Republican, well over half of our populace hates war. Huddled masses yearning…
20 capt funtime
December 21st, 2009 at 2:25 am
Thích Quảng Đức and tank man are 2 pictures that will never loose the impact the first time you look at them.
superb, its a good uplifting feeling to know that there are extrodinary people out there.
Merry Christmas All
21 slgw k ass
December 21st, 2009 at 2:29 am
bob marley is a scene kid.
22 zagga20
December 21st, 2009 at 2:44 am
enjoyed reading, though the hyphens really confused me in some places. i may just be an illiterate fool though.
23 donald heng
December 21st, 2009 at 2:52 am
rosa parks has nothing on any of these people.. gosh. the monk should be no.1 this list is intended to rank the most significant ones.
24 coresplit
December 21st, 2009 at 2:55 am
hair raising list…
25 TomJ
December 21st, 2009 at 2:55 am
@ Pete – Jesus? Because everyone has seen him…! lol!
Good list, thoroughly enjoyed that
26 lalalakc
December 21st, 2009 at 2:56 am
brilliant list, I like it a lot
27 gav
December 21st, 2009 at 3:00 am
Rosa was not a protester as much as a figure for protesters to rally around and emulate. She was not a radical, but gave the radicals a “mother” so to speak. She was just tired- and tired of relenting to the oppression.
Whether she deserves such a high place on this list- if this list is indeed relative to importance- is speculative. In the U.S., I would say yes. Globally, I would probably place her in a different spot. But I sure as hell would give up my bus seat to her out of respect.
28 David
December 21st, 2009 at 3:10 am
I couldn`t agree more with El the erf. “The Shoe Man,” will forever be remembered!
29 KatiesGoldenDust
December 21st, 2009 at 3:11 am
Great list. I took a History class called Rebels and Renegades a few years ago, and I enjoyed every minute of it. I love learning about people who were/are able to make a difference, though it sometimes makes me feel like I need to be doing more as well.
Anyway, excellent choices. There are so many candidates for a list like this, it must have been hard to narrow it down to just ten. Kudos, to you.
30 gore
December 21st, 2009 at 3:11 am
No Jan Palach?! I think there should have been a place for him here, also a victim of self-immolation during the protests in Prague against the Soviet ‘intervention’ in Czechoslovakia in 1968.
Otherwise, I think it’s a good list.
31 DC
December 21st, 2009 at 3:18 am
I agree with some of the other comments, I think that number 2 and 3 should be swapped round. One lit himself on fire and the other refused to stand up. Even if what she was protesting was more well known and recognised, Thich Quang Duc (sorry I know that’s not right) sacrificed himself in the most awful way imaginable. Just a thought.
32 Ryan
December 21st, 2009 at 3:20 am
Agreed with @Avi and @donald heng about Rosa Parks. She wasn’t even particularly unusual – people got arrested for the same crime pretty often, and the only thing different here was that she was secretary of the local chapter of NAACP. Even the accepted story of her just being a lady who was too tired to move after a long day of work or whatever is a myth. The whole thing was planned. I’d say Irene Morgan, Sarah Keys and Claudette Colvin (three women who spontaneously did the same thing in years prior but for one reason or another didn’t launch a famous boycott) probably deserve a spot ahead of Rosa.
The list is a little USA-centric as well, but hey. Rosa’s the only one who really doesn’t belong in my opinion. Muhammad Ali would be a better pick for refusing to go to Vietnam and more-or-less foregoing the peak of his boxing career to do so.
33 deezer
December 21st, 2009 at 3:20 am
great list. i’d heard of many of these before, but when you see it all written like this, it really brings it home what all these people did. And many others I would presume. Well done Dash, excellent list. Nice way to start the day.
34 Rufus
December 21st, 2009 at 3:25 am
Number 1 deserves it’s place.
that picture is the most displayed image during the Tiananmen incident memorial, which is actually illegal in China but luckily legal in Hong Kong
a grand list
35 mahala
December 21st, 2009 at 3:45 am
those are very powerful images.
36 astraya
December 21st, 2009 at 3:49 am
“A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer.” Ralph Waldo Emerson. Dash may be alluding to that quotation in his paragraph for list item no 1.
While I was searching for that quotation, I also found: “Let us all be brave enough to die the death of a martyr, but let no one lust for martyrdom.” Mohandas Gandhi
and
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” Nelson Mandela
I would add Luz Long at the 1936 Olympics. He had zero effect on subsequent history, but showed that two individuals can join in friendship despite anything their political masters tell them they should or shouldn’t do.
37 khatzeye
December 21st, 2009 at 4:03 am
I’ve been on this site over a year and I very rarely comment but I really liked this list. Way better then that animated couples thing a week ago, someone hand me the barf bag! Great Job!
38 archangel
December 21st, 2009 at 4:05 am
Go the tank man!
39 El the erf
December 21st, 2009 at 4:29 am
Not to forget the ever-vigilant, unknown photographer.
A half of a second is not exactly much time to make out the correct composition and the proper balance required to evoke a reaction awash with emotions.
…
Zackie Achmat seems an inspiring character.
Now I am repenting why I didn’t set afire my school.
Sheesh… All the time that I endured child labor.
This list and the video of Another Brick In The Wall came a tad too late in my life.
Oh well
40 mrscumbag
December 21st, 2009 at 4:31 am
Nice list. Knew before I got here that the Tank man would be no. 1 but I was also expecting to see Ali there somewhere too.
Definitely not disappointed though.
41 Ryan
December 21st, 2009 at 4:57 am
The Letter from Birmingham Jail is not a protest. It’s a call for civil disobedience. Completely different concept within political theory.
42 dark
December 21st, 2009 at 5:19 am
Jesus? This list is compiled of real people that lived and made great sacrifices that cost some of them their lives. The list is not put together using make believe characters. Come on people use some common sense or atleast logic. Jesus? Ignorance- another unfortunate side effect of hunger. Some one needs a Snickers
43 Arsnl
December 21st, 2009 at 5:27 am
@Ryan (32): well a lot of men stood in front of tanks but they got runned over, a lot of men resorted to self-immolation(which personally i think is stupid) but these people didnt make the list. You cant put them all but they are all heroes so thats why ros parks is a hero too. I really dont think parks did it become a “star” so why shouldnt she be like all the other names you mentioned.
Ps:1) a notable mention should be given to the tank driver(is that how one should call it) who decided not to run over that guy.
2)this would have made a great christmas list. Very uplifting
44 nolod1207
December 21st, 2009 at 6:09 am
Flat out best list in a while, and @dark: Jesus was a real person whether he was God or not is another argument, one you can feel free to make. But Jesus as a human being still single handedly protested against the persecution of Jews by the Roman Empire and was still thrown under the bus by his own people. Read a history book before you talk about ignorance.
45 nolod1207
December 21st, 2009 at 6:10 am
@dark: Jesus was a real person whether he was God or not is another argument, one you can feel free to make. But Jesus as a human being still single handedly protested against the persecution of Jews by the Roman Empire and was still thrown under the bus by his own people. Read a history book before you talk about ignorance.
46 elbobbo
December 21st, 2009 at 6:13 am
not sure how Bob Marley belongs on there with the rest of them. Its not like he sang the song in a place that would get him shot.
Bobby Sands should be on the list, far more than Marley and I’m sure that there are many others who do as well. Marley was a fine musician and a voice for the down trodden, especially of Jamaica, but he never really sacrificed anything in the way that the others on the list did.
47 lrigD
December 21st, 2009 at 6:13 am
This is an amazing list. It is so inspiring to see what human beings are capable of when it comes to justice. And there are many more of these people, whose impact is probably smaller, but who risk their lives for others.
48 dash
December 21st, 2009 at 6:14 am
@El the erf (39): hello el,
49 elbobbo
December 21st, 2009 at 6:15 am
nolod1207: it is debatable whether Jesus was a real person. A lot of historians believe that Jesus was an amalgam of many teachers, rabbis, prophets and political dissidents of the time
50 kerb50
December 21st, 2009 at 6:22 am
There should be an honourary mention of Brian Haw, who have camped out in Parliament Square, London for peace causes since June 2001:–
http://www.parliament-square.org.uk/
51 elbobbo
December 21st, 2009 at 6:23 am
I was in college when the Tianammen Square protests occurred and I remember there was a Chinese exchange student who was completely devastated when he saw footage of it not only because of what happened but because the Chinese people were led to believe that there was a violent revolt that had to be put down. If memory serves he was in the US when it happened but had received letters from home talking about it and he wanted to tell his family the truth
52 oouchan
December 21st, 2009 at 6:35 am
Awesome list, Dash!
Loved all of your choices. To me, Louis Armstrong, Thích Quảng Đức and Rosa Parks stood out the most.
However, I remember the tank incident. I watched it on the news and to this day still find his act of courage to be nothing short of amazing.
53 Shannon
December 21st, 2009 at 6:51 am
Extremely powerful list. I have the Tank Man as my desktop wallpaper. It doesn’t get any gutsier than standing in front of a column of tanks with nothing but two bags of groceries.
Of course, setting oneself ablaze is powerful as well. What has always bothered me the most about so many of these protests is how deaf of an ear is turned by the people being protested AND the people who would benefit from the protest. No one listens to anyone. As a result, people get tired of waiting and pissed off so many times, they go pick up a gun.
54 cjshields
December 21st, 2009 at 6:52 am
Bobby Sands shoud not be included because, while he was a hero, his was not an individual protest. 9 others died on the hunger strike. Interestingly, I know Vedran Smailovic personally. He lives in Ireland now and was a very good friend of my fathers. I have drank with him quite a few times and he comes to my house every Christmas. He’s a really good man.
55 Randall
December 21st, 2009 at 6:59 am
@elbobbo (49):
In fact it is hardly debatable at all if Jesus was a real person–it is generally accepted that he very much WAS a real person—and I do not know a single historian who does not accept this and stand behind it—so your statements are, on the one hand, highly exaggerated, and on the other, downright wrong.
I’ve held forth on this before and I can’t believe it keeps rearing its ridiculous head. There is NO LESS “proof” of Jesus’ existence than for nearly ANYONE ELSE living in the Classical age—the only exceptions being royal personages and the like. The proof, for anyone else–including Jesus–is in fact in the form of congruent history… in short, we have several UNRELATED and disinterested sources mentioning him, near enough to the time he lived to make the reporting of a mere fantasy quite impossible.
This has been considered historically valid for centuries. And as I say, I know of NO historian who questions it. The precise details of Jesus’ life? Sure. We’ll question that. The sources for that are muddied. But that he actually existed? No. That is not questioned, and there’s no solid reason why it should be.
Period.
56 Jack Deth
December 21st, 2009 at 7:07 am
@Arsnl (43):
That’s a good call on the tank commander, he must have been under enormous pressure to take those tanks into town no matter what.
I wonder what his fate was?
57 niksz79
December 21st, 2009 at 7:26 am
D monk thing is such a tragedy!!!!!.Heartbreakin pic of d monks self immolation!!!!
58 niksz79
December 21st, 2009 at 7:27 am
What happened to d tank guy?????
was he gunned down or overpowered physically by d cops or sumthing???
59 niksz79
December 21st, 2009 at 7:34 am
Bhagat Singh and his fellow jail mates fasted for 55 or more days(cant rem. the exact no) in jail to protest against d discrimination against them as against the facilities provided to the other British prisoners
Irom Sharmila, that iconic 36-year-old Manipuri woman, has spent the best part of almost 10 years being force fed against her will. She has undertaken a fast-unto-death demanding the withdrawal of the AFSPA.
Each year, the ritual is played out. Her period of detention for attempting suicide is one year. The authorities have to release her, usuallyin early March. She leaves the Jawaharlal Nehru Hospital in Imphal where she is incarcerated and being force fed through a tube shoved down her nose.
And while this annual arrest and rearrest ritual continues, Manipur — and particularly Imphal — is caught in a permanent spiral of violence.
60 ladysmurf
December 21st, 2009 at 7:34 am
TANK MAAAAN~
DANANANANANANA~
XD
Nice list! Loved it.
61 the_knacker
December 21st, 2009 at 7:34 am
Nice list. I would have included Jan Palach, too.
62 Arsnl
December 21st, 2009 at 8:03 am
@Jack Deth (56): he probably works for nike or adidas in a sweatshop:-p
63 MagicBoy
December 21st, 2009 at 8:17 am
To really appreciate the actions of Rosa Parks one needs to take a more global look.
Prior to the introduction of “chicken” buses to
Honduras and the rest of Central/South America
inter/intra city travel was a pretty hit and miss
thing.
The actions of Rosa Parks gave momentum to a movement
which eventually led to the de-segregation of US
schools. This de-segragation was attained by 1000′s of
school districts buying school busses. Once the useful
road life of these busses was reached, they had to be
disposed of. School Districts found a eager buying
market south of their borders. Without the arrival of
fleets of ex school busses Honduras wouldn’t have a
“maquilla” industry and still would be an isolated non
growth GDP country.
Ms Parks actions, I content, has helped Honduras and other Central American countries more
than all US aid.
64 emsie
December 21st, 2009 at 8:23 am
I think that number 3 should have been first. He protested knowing that he would die for his cause.
65 Taylor
December 21st, 2009 at 8:26 am
@Randall (55):
Ever seen the documentary “Zeitgeist”?
66 Scratch
December 21st, 2009 at 8:40 am
@elbobbo (46):
Actually, Bob Marley was shot right before his “Smile Jamaica” concert. Some say that the gunmen were politically motivated because the concert appeared to promote a specific political party. Despite having been shot, he performed a highly spiritual concert. He also make efforts, at great risk to himself, to bring together the two (quite literally) warring political parties in Jamaica.
67 get a clue
December 21st, 2009 at 8:43 am
re: the tank man
An iconic image, no doubt. But allow me to ask the obvious question. Aside from selling a few cool posters here in the Eurocentric world, what exactly did he accomplish, especially in light of China’s current politics?
Then ask the same question about every other name on the list. You’ll find some happened to be ‘right place right time’ for a photographer to snap a picture…and that’s about the only reason we know that person (as opposed to, for instance, the dozens of others who set fire to themselves). Some became living symbols (Rosa Parks), but nonetheless the very real and measurable changes that took place because of their…fame (for lack of a better word) are obvious today. That’s why I admire ‘the tank guy’ but seriously question the value of his act. Truth is, it didn’t change a damn thing.
In the end are we after a nice picture or real change? Or, as I read that sentiment rephrased recently, let’s all go to the latest movie funded by a huge conglomerate about how the little guy stands up for himself against amazing odds and beats the huge corporation. Pay no attention to that elephant in the room.
Um, before you toss off ‘jaded and cynical’ comments, try first to address the facts I have raised. Thanks.
68 get a clue
December 21st, 2009 at 8:48 am
re: hunger strikes
A post or two mentioned hunger strikes as a valuable form of protest. I say, “Bullshit.” Most are simply publicity grabs, most of the rest are vaingloriously stupid attempts to make…what point? My cause is so great I’m going to choose to end my life for it?!?! I’d rather starve myself than fight, than do something/anything, than be somewhat helpful? A hunger strike is just slow suicide. You don’t want to be on this planet, there are faster ways to exit. I’m just sayin’. You want to fight the good fight? Have a sandwich and get up and help, dammit.
69 bucslim
December 21st, 2009 at 8:49 am
@Taylor (65):
Randall doesn’t have to see that steaming pile of bullshit. And it isn’t a ‘documentary.’ A documentary has factual information in it from both sides and intends to bring an issue to light for the viewer to decide, not spew concoced and outlandish shit out from one point of view. For all we know it’s a recording of what’s happening inside Crispin Glover’s overactive walnut sized brain.
It isn’t historical, it has no factual basis, and it misses the mark of anything worthwhile, true or interesting. It’s birdshit on the windshield. Anyone who thinks it’s true is serioulsy deluded or has mental issues.
70 Old Sasha
December 21st, 2009 at 8:52 am
Oh man, whats number 3 got to do to be number 1? He set himself on fire! Rosa Parks just sat down like lots of people have done before. but thanks for the great topic.
71 Petie
December 21st, 2009 at 9:02 am
@pete (11): I like the name, Pete
I think Jesus was more of a teacher than protester. He changed a great number of things, but not through protest, but through teaching and sacrifice.
72 Petie
December 21st, 2009 at 9:03 am
Oh, nice list! Rosa parks is a local celebrity around here in the Detroit area.
73 notorioustgb
December 21st, 2009 at 9:20 am
definitely one of the best lists I’ve read in a bit although i’d agree with some of the other comments about Thích Quảng Đức needing to be placed higher. Seriously, dousing yourself in fuel, lighting yourself on fire and sitting there motionless while the flames consume you. an example of unbelievable courageousness and selflessness.
small nit-picky point. perhaps it should read “that all people are created equal.” Saying all men are created equal in reference to a woman is not only awkward, it’s rather dated.
74 notorioustgb
December 21st, 2009 at 9:22 am
oh and I’m am waiting in great anticipation to Randall’s thoughts on Zeitgeist…
75 Arsnl
December 21st, 2009 at 9:23 am
@get a clue (67): sothe value of an act is only measured by the utility of that act?? Well i think he achieved his purpose- he managed to stop those tanks. But he didnt do it for fame or to prove a point, he didnt try to unite people around him, he didnt write a book about his life and maybe he’s now dead because of what he did. He just wanted to stop some tanks and he did that. What do you want more??
@emsie (64):So the greatest protesters are only those who protest once cuz afterwards, well, they’re dead??
@bucslim (69): i think its the same guy that wanted us to see a documentary about how aliens populated the earth a few lists ago (using their special telepathic powers):-p
76 cjshields
December 21st, 2009 at 9:26 am
@68. The idea of a hunger strike is to publicise the problems that may be ignored by the public, not gain the publicity for yourself. It is not to commit suicide but to hope that the instigator of the problem sees your commitment to the cause and puts a stop to the wrongs they are perpetrating before you die. The Irish hunger strikers (like Bobby Sands) were in prison and had held other protests before, that went unheeded. Hunger strike was seen as a last resort to show Thatcher that they didn’t accept that they weren’t political prisoners. They did gain a huge public following as a result so it wasn’t a waste of time. It’s the same ethos as setting yourself on fire (which you seem ok with). I’m thinking you just don’t agree with the causes that some hunger strikers have died for. Either way, you make yourself look stupid and small minded. Read a bit about the subject before posting brainless comments.
77 Taylor
December 21st, 2009 at 9:27 am
@bucslim (69):
That’s a pretty strong opinion, and I am not saying I 100% believe in the “steaming pile of bullshit” that documentary talks about, but I feel it could all be true. I feel their evidence is valid but I can also see why people would feel the way you do about it, it’s pretty shocking stuff. Maybe I’m willing to accept the truth, or maybe I’m seriously deluded and have mental issues.
78 Taylor
December 21st, 2009 at 9:31 am
@Arsnl (75):
Haha yup, same guy. I guess I just like conspiracy theory documentaries. As I keep saying though, I don’t know if it’s all true or not, but I feel they are interesting and worth watching and then it’s up to the viewer to decide if they are true or not.
79 Shannon
December 21st, 2009 at 9:32 am
@niksz79 (58):
There is video footage of this event in addition to the iconic still photograph. In it, the Tank Man actually climbs onto the tank and confronts the tank commander before hopping back down and resuming his stance. In the end, a group of onlookers, not police or military, ran out and grabbed the Tank Man and hustled him off to the side so the tanks could continue on and so Tank Man wouldn’t be crushed.
@get a clue (67):
“Truth is, it didn’t change a damn thing.”
You are right, of course. Most of the acts captured in these pictures didn’t change anything by themselves. Some, like the Tank Man photo, didn’t change anything ever. China is still quite communist and not a very free place. Still, it helps to look beyond that moment. How many people watched and said to themselves, “Damn, if X can to that, at least I can do Y.”
Most really profound change isn’t the result of a tidal wave of sentiment. It’s more like one person is a pebble falling down a hill that dislodges more pebbles that fall in their turn dislodging others until half the mountainside is rushing down in a torrent. Still, it all started with a pebble.
80 Randall
December 21st, 2009 at 9:42 am
@bucslim (69):
Thanks for taking that one for me. I naturally concur with everything you said.
81 Randall
December 21st, 2009 at 9:50 am
@Taylor (77):
“…documentary talks about,”
It is NOT a documentary. It’s pure bullshit from start to finish, with a fact thrown in here and there to make it look credible.
“but I feel it could all be true.”
Then you’re a soft-headed moron who has no critical thinking skills whatsoever.
“…but I can also see why people would feel the way you do about it, it’s pretty shocking stuff.”
bucslim and I do not feel the way we do about it because it is “shocking,” but because it is historically inaccurate, invalid, and just plain wrong.
Conspiracy theories are ALWAYS built on a distortion of the truth, the ignorance of vast piles of fact in the favor of one or two that suit the conspiracy theorist’s agendas… and downright lies. And all of this is exactly what your little movie is built on.
“…maybe I’m seriously deluded and have mental issues.”
Perhaps you do.
I have no further time for this nonsense. I have grading to do, and a pile of paperwork issues on my desk that need my attention before I take off for my much-deserved week long holiday break.
Jesus was a real individual. Period. There is no way he could have been “made up” by conspiracy or otherwise.
For the last time… not ONE real and valid historian that I know of questions this. NOT ONE.
82 bucslim
December 21st, 2009 at 9:55 am
@Taylor (77):
Did you just read over the fact that it isn’t a documentary? Stop calling it a documentary.
Even a casual viewing of this piece of trash reveals it to be more like a comedy. It’s so fucking stupid it’s laughable. And I’m not talking about ‘it’s so bad it’s good’ kind of delightfulness. Sure, even Carrot Top has some admirers, but that doesn’t make him an artist.
I would tell people that it’s not worth watching in the same way I’d tell them that it isn’t worth watching hobo’s yell at stop signs to make the beasty’s stop pricking their soul. But I know there are people out there who buy into this kind of buffoonery.
If you can’t distinguish between what is truthful and valuable and some sort of button trip gone bad, then you’ve got to crush some tin foil over those rabbit ears dude, because you are getting some heavy interference.
83 Cynthia
December 21st, 2009 at 10:09 am
Out of the hundreds of lists I have read on this site- this is the first to make me cry a little.
Great list!! Very inspiring.
84 Woyzeck
December 21st, 2009 at 10:20 am
Jan Palach.
85 RedMan
December 21st, 2009 at 10:34 am
Someone said Jesus should be on here. Well if someone can find absolute solid proof that Jesus did any of the stuff the bible says then maybe. I get so sick of people refering to the Bible as a history book when in fact it is just full of theories.
86 Taylor
December 21st, 2009 at 10:39 am
@Randall (81): @bucslim (82):
The difference between me and you guys is that I have my opinion, I am not asking anyone to think like me, I am just SUGGESTING people watch something I found interesting and then decide for themselves the truth, I accept that other people have their opinions and I am not making fun of anyone for not thinking like me.
You guys have your opinion, you tell people to think like you, you make fun of people that don’t think like you and everyone else’s opinion is a load of shit if it’s not like yours.
Kinda looks to me like I’m taking the mature approach to this you you two are taking the childish approach, but then again that’s just my opinion which I already know you think is a load of shit.
87 Taylor
December 21st, 2009 at 10:43 am
@Randall (81): @RedMan (85):
Randall, it appears there’s someone else in the world that thinks like me, weird eh?
I know I wasn’t around to meet Jesus, I am guessing RedMan wasn’t either, were you Randall?
88 deeeziner
December 21st, 2009 at 10:54 am
Somehow I had expected to see the recent death of Iranian Neda Agha Soltan in this list.
I’m not exceptionally politic minded, nor do I personally have a major stake in the actions of those listed here, but I’m sure their actions have helped those close to me in one way or another. And for that I say “Thank-you for your sacrifice, and for having a plan of action to help bring change.”.
89 bucslim
December 21st, 2009 at 10:55 am
@Taylor (86):
Well the trouble with your last post is that one could take an opinion on anything, even if it’s demonstrably false. I believe that sub-terainian rape monkeys will come out of the ground and poke me if I don’t pay them tribute with 400 virgins every mid summer’s eve.
You could demonstrate to me that what I just typed isn’t true and I would protest for days on end that it is true and carry on with the sacrifice. That’s my opinion and nothing you say will dissuade me from examining women to test their suitability for my annual ritual.
Yes, you have a right to your opinion, but it’s also my right to make fun of it.
90 archiealt
December 21st, 2009 at 11:03 am
@bucslim (89):
‘Yes, you have a right to your opinion, but it’s also my right to make fun of it.’
Hows being a Christian working out for you?
91 coco obrien
December 21st, 2009 at 11:05 am
This list was amazing. Best list I’ve read in a while. Good job!
92 Arsnl
December 21st, 2009 at 11:12 am
@bucslim (89): i wonder how much time do those monkeys need to type the entire work of shakespeare? Lets say that it doesnt depend if its an iphone keyboard, a qwerty or an azerty one( just so we can have some scientific method)
93 bucslim
December 21st, 2009 at 11:14 am
@archiealt (90):
Funny how you picked that out and not my sacrifice of virgins to subterraneal rape monkeys as a hypocritical benchmark of my Christian beliefs.
94 Taylor
December 21st, 2009 at 11:17 am
@bucslim (89):
The thing is, you weren’t making fun of my opinion, you were making me for having that opinion.
I could care less what you think about me, or what Randall thinks of me for that matter, but I guess because I’m not a Christian and I am not 100% convinced Jesus ever existed you have the right to make fun of me, I mean that’s what religion is all about right? Making fun of people who don’t think like you. And nothing bad has ever happened in the world because someone made fun of, or disagreed with the wrong guy’s religion…
95 archiealt
December 21st, 2009 at 11:24 am
@bucslim (93):
I’m just saying mate, you can’t believe that a carpenter who may or may not have lived a couple of thousand years ago is the Lord God our saviour AND lecture people on distinguishing between Truth and Craziness. Well you could, but it just makes you look like a nob.
Nice list by the way.
96 Winston
December 21st, 2009 at 11:31 am
4 out of 10 are American. WOW BIG SURPRISE!
Why do New Zealanders love the USA so much?
97 bucslim
December 21st, 2009 at 11:40 am
@archiealt (95):
I appreciate your judgement of my personal faith based upon what I say on this website.
I’m simply saying that Zeitgeist is a ridiculous piece of nonsense and that people who take it as truth do so at their own folly. And I’ve said it in my own unique way, if that destroys your vision of me leading people into the promised land, well, sure am sorry about that, but I’ve never set myself up as a role model to anyone here.
I say what’s on my mind, sometimes for laughs, sometimes not. I’m not going to apologize for that ever. And I’m not conflicted about how I say it either.
98 deeeziner
December 21st, 2009 at 11:40 am
@Winston (96): Why do people reading a list about personal conviction, dedication, and sacrifice to a cause, have to make it a pissing contest about nationality?
Truly, Winston, the only thing you got from this list was a gripe about nationality ratio?
Really comes off as a tad petty.
99 Arsnl
December 21st, 2009 at 11:43 am
@archiealt (95): would you think einstein was a nob because he thought quantum mechanics was bs?? I tend to judge people by their deeds and not by their beliefs. I love it how everything turns to religion on LV. Everybody is so religion-centric
Ps ive begun to hate the “this is so ….-centric” sarcasm
100 archiealt
December 21st, 2009 at 11:58 am
@bucslim (98):
You’ve missed the point. Keep trying though.
101 bucslim
December 21st, 2009 at 12:00 pm
@archiealt (102):
And you’ve obviously missed mine.
102 Ace
December 21st, 2009 at 12:04 pm
#3 In my mind is the most a single person could do to protest against any form of mistreatment. Nobody but him can even fathom the strenght it takes to do what he did. True meaning of HERO.
103 get a clue
December 21st, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Hey, I know why people say they’re going on a hunger strike, and I’ve read all about Bobby Sands. Just for the record, it’s still a stupid idea.
Finish this sentence:
I am protesting unjust policies so as to effect real change; therefore I will
a) redouble my efforts to inform and educate people to my cause.
b) make my voice heard by voting protesting whatever it takes.
c) stop eating.
Sounds really stupid when you put a hunger strike in context, doesn’t it?
As for the “it all starts with a pebble” re: tank guy…I say, fine. I’ll elevate his act to heroic status as soon as China is no longer Communist. Until then he’s just a guy with big balls or no sense who stood in front of a tank. I admire his courage, but to date it hasn’t means jack shit for the Chinese.
Oh, and setting one’s self on fire is just as stupid as a hunger strike. You want change? get off your ass and do something. You wanna commit suicide? That’s not heroic. Ever.
104 Randall
December 21st, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Acknowledgement of the historicity of Jesus AS A PERSON, as an actual figure that lived, is NOT the same as acknowledging or believing in his divinity; neither is it equal to being a Christian.
105 atheists eat fish
December 21st, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Great list. Very thought provoking. I would also add Rachel Corrie. She was an American (sorry to those of you who are getting frustrated about the Ameri-centric nature of some lists) who stood in front of a bulldozer that was about to demolish a Palestinian home. She protested peacefully and got run over and buried in cold blood. You can read about here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
Also, Rosa Parks said herself that she was just tired. It was Martin Luther King, Jr. who turned the situation into the iconic boycott that it became. I still have a great deal of admiration for her, as I do for all of the regular citizens who were involved in the civil rights movement (such as the students who had water hoses sprayed on them and dogs sent to attack them during thier peaceful marches) but I am not sure she belongs on this.
Anyway, great job on the list. It is impossible to create a list on which everyone agrees. Even the list about horrible Halloween candy had controversy.
106 “ODHI”
December 21st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
@n0 7 (Dfil3r) Man I guess u r still readin’ this I love
that comment !!!!….@DASH -Awesome List PAL !
107 Maggot
December 21st, 2009 at 1:07 pm
@mrscumbag (40): In effort to promote courteous and respectful comment exchange among fellow participants, for future reference, are we to refer to you as “mr. scumbag”, or “mrs. cumbag”? Just wondering.
108 cjshields
December 21st, 2009 at 1:22 pm
@105. I don’t know why you can’t make the connection and see that the hunger strike *is* a mixture of your a and b answers. It’s not as simple as stopping eating; it is, in your words, informing and educating people to the cause by making your voice heard by protesting, whatever it takes.
109 nepali
December 21st, 2009 at 1:55 pm
7
Bob Marley
Yes, they blast it out from the chai shops in Kathmandu.
it should be chia shops =] owell good to see my hometown in here
110 moonbeam
December 21st, 2009 at 2:09 pm
@Avi (13): @donald heng (23): @Ryan (32): @Old Sasha (70): @atheists eat fish (107): I wonder why the only woman on this list is targeted so heavily. The debate weather or not she was “just tired” is weak. Sure she was tired; as were all the other people who were made to move from their seats based solely on their race. Yet most of them continued to move to the back of the busses. This day she was also ‘sick and tired’. Sick and tired of being pushed around.
When it’s argued that the whole incident was preplanned – I say – so what if it was? Don’t you think most of the other actions on this list were also planned ahead of time? All but Tank man seem to have been planned actions or at least well thought out, such as Bob Marley writing a song.
Louis Armstrong – planned decision,
Dr King – well thought out response,
Zackie Achmat – thought out decision,
Henry Thoreau – planned action,
Vedran Smailovic – also preplanned,
Mohandas Gandhi – preplanned event,
Thích Quảng Đức – preplanned action.
Once again the only difference I see in the criticisms of Rosa Parks is the fact that she was a woman.
111 atheists eat fish
December 21st, 2009 at 3:02 pm
@moonbeam (112): Did you read my entire comment? I proposed another person for the list who was also a woman. I am also a woman. I think the reason for the controversy is simply that she did not seem to be even trying to protest. She was simply too tired to get up. She was not really trying too make a point against the entire establishment of segregation. Therein lies the difference. There are many woman who would be worthy to be on the list, some of whom are mentioned by other commenters. Often, though, they work in groups.
112 atheists eat fish
December 21st, 2009 at 3:06 pm
@ moonbeam (112): http://www.answers.com/topic/ain-t-i-a-woman-book: Here is a link about Sojourner Truth, another woman that I believe truly deserves a place on this list.
113 CrevanFox
December 21st, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Emily Wilding Davison
114 nuriko
December 21st, 2009 at 4:53 pm
another great list!
115 copperdragon
December 21st, 2009 at 4:58 pm
excellent list
116 Moonbeam
December 21st, 2009 at 5:00 pm
@atheists eat fish (114): Thanks for your feedback. Sorry if I offended. Your original comment was the most measured of those I zeroed in on. I hesitated before adding your name to my first comment, but I wanted to emphasize what seemed to be an unbalanced number of comments concerning Mrs Parks.
I do believe you are mistaken when you say, “She was simply too tired to get up.” I believe she had planned this action. From Africanaonline.com/rosa_parks.htm: “It is sometimes overlooked that at the time of her arrest, she was no ordinary bus rider; she was an experienced activist with strong beliefs… she [was] active in Montgomery’s chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).”
Not to preach to the chorus here but she paid a price for her stand (no pun intended) as you can see in the same article:
“African Americans were required to pay their fares at the front of the bus and then to reboard through the back door. The white bus drivers, who were invested with police powers, frequently harassed blacks, sometimes driving away before African American passengers were able to get back on the bus. During peak hours, the drivers pushed back the boundary markers that segregated the bus, crowding those in the ‘colored section’ to provide more whites with seats.”
“On December 1, 1955, Rosa Parks took her seat in the front of the ‘colored section’ of a Montgomery bus. The driver asked Rosa Parks and three other black riders to relinquish their seats to whites, but Rosa Parks refused (the others complied). The driver called the police, and Rosa Parks was arrested.
Although three black women had been arrested earlier that year for similar acts of defiance, and Rosa Parks herself had been thrown off a bus by the same driver 12 years before, this time the opponents of segregation were prepared to mount a counterattack. The Montgomery chapter of the NAACP had been looking for a test case to challenge the legality of segregated bus seating and to woo public opinion with a series of protests.”
“She lost her job as a seamstress and was unable to find other work in Montgomery. Rosa Parks and her husband relocated to Detroit, Michigan where they struggled financially for the next eight years.”
117 Moonbeam
December 21st, 2009 at 5:05 pm
@atheists eat fish (114): Yes! Sojourner Truth was amazing also. Thanks for the link. There could be lists made of woman who changed history, (maybe by someone more creative than me).
118 tasmanian boy
December 21st, 2009 at 5:08 pm
I dont like people whose only comment is that they like a particular list.
119 atheists eat fish
December 21st, 2009 at 6:08 pm
@Moonbeam (118): Interesting information. Thank you. Still, you did not comment on my mention of Rachel Corrie. Have you heard of her?
I also agree that someone should make a list of women protesters. I researched it on the internet and have not found the treasure trove that I was hoping for. I will continue to look. I know that there are many involved in women’s rights (suffrage, eetc.) in this country (I am American), but they did not generally face the peril faced by people belonging to races that have been targeted for genocide, have had lands occupied, or have been enslaved. The women involved in these struggles are of more interest to me and these women are also more difficult to find with a basic google search. I will keep looking.
120 Iakhovas
December 21st, 2009 at 6:16 pm
It really makes you think when you compare these noble, peaceful protests to what you see today. Nowadays, you get a bunch of unwashed Uni Students protesting against war. And how do they achieve this? By smashing windows, burning the cars of innocent people and assaulting police who are just trying to do their job and keep people safe. Or how about the anti-capatalist brigades? Greenies turn up to a protest against glabalization in their Nike’s, then stop off for some McDonalds on their way home. After assaulting police and smashing windows that is…. Ironic really that they are the very things that they are protesting against. Blind hypocrites, all of them.
121 dracon
December 21st, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Where’s the burning monk?
122 wondersquid
December 21st, 2009 at 7:56 pm
I salute the freedom fighters of history. I wish I could think of some amazing way to fight the injustices I see. I suppose I’m too fat and lazy.
123 Jay
December 21st, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Rosa Parks is above MLK and Ghandi?
124 Vera Lynn
December 21st, 2009 at 9:13 pm
#5 I have had many Bosnian refugees with the saddest stories. One boy(Mirza) couldnt even speak or write his name. 8th grade. He did nothing but shake. He saw his father beheaded. Amin lost his leg when he stepped on a bomb. Climbed 60 stairs 5 times a day all year (my school doesnt have an elevator). Pictures drawn of women with their breasts cut off, people buried in mass graves. I have hundreds of stories. One for each child whether Bosnian, Croatian or Serbian. Its the children who suffer. So many many sad stories.
125 Geo
December 21st, 2009 at 9:46 pm
great list, after a long time!
126 bwnorx
December 21st, 2009 at 10:06 pm
what about when Twisted Sister sang “We’re Not Gonna Take It” ?
127 The boy from troy
December 21st, 2009 at 11:01 pm
@Vera Lynn (126): Hey stop that, it’s real depressing stuff.. I wonder how deeply people get affected by such incidents, an indelible scar for life- whole life haunted by horrible memories..hoooo
128 smokingfrog
December 21st, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Fantastic List, Dash
Keep it up
129 kate
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:12 am
<3.
130 Moonbeam
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:00 am
@atheists eat fish (121): I had not heard of Rachel Corrie. Tragic story. I’m grateful for another chance to learn about woman who’ve taken a stand for their beliefs. You’ve inspired me to also research this topic.
@Jay (125): No where on this list does it say that it is a “top ten” or that they are in any particular order of ranking. You seem to be yet another person to pile on the “let’s attack Rosa Parks” bandwagon. I just don’t get why this happens.
131 Michael
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:40 am
@Randall (55):
Interesting opinion but unfortunately you are slightly off. There is more evidence that “Jesus” was a number of people spreading teachings that turned into Christianity.
There is some debate over how long this group (of what is agreed upon to be approximately 8-10 people) took to really put the spark to the tinder but the evidence is that a GROUP existed NOT an INDIVIDUAL.
I have read this theory in some detail within the works of the scholars the History and Theological Departments of Yale. Thus I am more than happy with the accuracy of this.
Nice try and almost correct but please try to be a little more precise when referring to such matters.
Thanks, it is appreciated.
Regards
Michael
132 dash
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:18 am
hello people, ive got requests to comment-what are you guys looking for me to comment on?
133 mom424
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:33 am
@Michael (133): Hahaha telling Randall to be more precise. He must be busy grading papers or some-such. I suggest you get ready to provide your sources. I do call bullshit btw – I’ve not read one scholarly article that denies the existence of Jesus. The man – his divinity is a whole ‘nother ball game.
134 Randall
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:51 am
@Michael (133):
Don’t fuck with me, Michael… you have NO idea to whom you’re talking to.
To begin with, the historicity of Jesus as an individual is NOT my “opinion,” it the accepted paradigm of the vast majority of scholars and historians going back to at least the Middle Ages.
Next, there is not “more” evidence that Jesus was multiple individuals. THAT statement, on your part, was pure hyperbole, and, quite frankly, bullshit.
The CONGRUENT evidence that Jesus was a real person–ONE real person–has been accepted for centuries. Indeed, the Romans and Hebrews THEMSELVES accepted it, and generally without question.
And the reason for this is is that it would have been nearly as impossibly difficult, in the Classical world, to just “invent” a person out of whole cloth–or to merge several *real* people into one fanciful person–as it would be TODAY. People then were no less intelligent, and the Classical world, while not connected with such thoroughness and redundancy as ours is in terms of communication, was nevertheless one in which information flowed readily and fairly rapidly (relatively speaking). In this environment, Jesus is spoken of and written about only a few paltry years after his death. And not only that–spoken of and written about with total acceptance that he WAS a real individual. There is NO WAY that could have happened if he had NOT been a real person. It would have required a conspiracy of not only monumental proportion (as most silly conspiracy theories WOULD require) but the acquiesence of those who had NO REASON to blithely accept or support the reality of Jesus as an historical figure—but they in fact DID accept his historicity.
There were untold numbers of people who were still alive when Jesus was being written about and talked of, after his death—yet we have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that ANYONE ever spoke up to say, “wait a second—that guy never existed!” Not ONE person, scholar, sage, Roman officer or imperial representative EVER says a word to this effect. And SURELY they would have if, after only a few years, people were trying to *create* such a figure, or merge several unrelated people together INTO such a figure.
This has been the historical MAINSTREAM conclusion on Jesus, therefore, since DAY ONE when consideration of his historicity was ever approached. And it has been the conclusion EVEN OF THOSE who have no vested interest in an historical Jesus.
Interestingly, you don’t bring up ONE SHRED of this so-called “evidence” that Jesus was “8-10 people,” you only offer it up as authority and expect me and everyone else here to accept it.
Of further note to me—and I think this is telling—you mention the History and Theological Departments of Yale… as though there was some general consensus in this department that Jesus was an amalgam of several individuals.
AND YET… I cannot find a SINGLE reference to this online, nor any other references related to Yale, except the usual scholarly tomes that already exist or are currently going to print which talk about Jesus as a real individual. Moreover, I myself (having been a trained historian, specializing in Ancient History, and currently working at a major university, myself) am more than familiar with the “buzz-talk” that goes around history circles when this kind of thing comes up—and you would expect such talk in VOLUME if a big part of the history department of Yale had come to the conclusion that Jesus never actually existed. BUT… needless to say, I have not heard ONE SUCH THING to this effect.
Now, I’m sure it’s possible you read something, from someone, who is connected to Yale–I will defer for the moment on the possible point that you were simply lying. But I have little doubt that you have mischaracterized it and exaggerated it, and in support of this opinion, I again point out your utter failure to CITE any of the works or scholars whom you have only nebulously referred to.
Lastly Michael, don’t ever try to palm off a “nice try” on me. I don’t open my mouth around here unless I KNOW what I’m talking about, and without support to back me up. As for precision, in trying to blithely and backhandedly get us to believe that the scholarly paradigm around Jesus has suddenly turned and done a near-180, and is now assuming him to have been a fabricated alloy… YOU are the one who is speaking as imprecisely as one could possibly speak.
135 Randall
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:00 am
@mom424 (135):
Thanks mom. Grades, in fact, were due yesterday at 5pm sharp. I got all mine done by 3.30pm. For that monumental effort, I allowed myself the luxury of immediately abandoning the office for a drink with comrades at a local pub, despite the remaining Sears Tower of paperwork that still sits on my desk.
136 Lifeschool
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:21 am
Hi all,
Pretty good list today, has at least stired a bit of debate.
@Michael (133) (re: Zeitgeist): It’s been quite a while since I saw that movie, so I can’t remember the detail only the bullet points. From what I gather, the movie suggested that quite a few attributes were bestowed on JC which have been similarly bestowed on others throughout ancient history to mark some kind of divinity. It reminds me of the Life of Brian quote which goes something like… “I should know Saviour, I’ve followed a few.” I personally believe JC did exist because so many unrelated onlookers from that period can’t be all wrong, and that the stories and layers of mythology have come later to prove he was something/anything more than just a man – which he was.
137 Moonbeam
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:00 am
@dash (134): I loved your list and found it to be very moving.
I’m not sure what they may want you to comment on, but my guess would be some of the controversial topics that this list has inspired. For example the ‘is Jesus real or fiction; God or man discussions, or why did you omit so and so; or include so and so? Just my guess as to what they may be looking for.
It never ceases to amaze how almost every list seems to inspire such intense debate. And every debate seems to include the same topics such as religion, homosexuality, abortion, etc. regardless of whether or not they have anything to do with the original list.
138 ULMFLB
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:42 am
@Iakhovas (122): Don’t worry, back in the days, there was also a bunch of hypocrites, people that were in it just to break the windows of a store to get a radio or some records, some stupid teenagers that were addicted to the adrenalin rush you get when you fight the police, some other that planted bombs… And a lot of honest people fighting with democratic and peaceful weapons for peace and justice. People that was arrested, beaten and sometimes murdered. Just as today, actually. Only that it might be a tad less violent nowadays.
139 dash
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:59 am
@Moonbeam (139): It is known and acknowledged that all lists tend to be controversial.Because a list by nature is exclusive, it will lead to strong reactions from those left out.As for questions on morality-i think racism is wrong, tyranny cannot persist and every person deserves the right to healthcare and education.We can haggle endlessly over other things but these values are non-negotiable. It is through this spectrum that I write.
140 dkk
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Avi – are you kidding????? I am a white woman and I think that what Rosa Parks did was amazingly brave. You don’t have to kill yourself or be involved in violence to make a stand against injustice. Do you have any idea how blacks were treated in those days? She had to be very brave to stand up for what she believed in. It may just have been a seat on the bus but sometimes it is one little step at a time to change things and she helped get the ball rolling.
141 Luv4Tahoe
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I have to assume that all you people who don’t believe in Jesus won’t be celebrating Christmas this year.
Otherwise, you would look like assholes.
Merry CHRISTmas everyone!
142 dkk
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
@archiealt (90):
“How’s being a Christian working for you?”
Ask us when we are all dead.
143 Andrew
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:22 pm
lists like this are why i go to this site
144 archiealt
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
@Luv4Tahoe (143):
Nothing wrong with keeping the traditions but losing the Fairy Tales. I point you towards Halloween or Valentines Day, two very secular holidays which have roots in various Religions.
So no, it would not make you look like an asshole if you celebrated Christmas without being religious.
You however do look like an asshole, because you believe in nonsense. Have fun praying to nobody.
Oh and @Randall,
‘Don’t fuck with me, Michael… you have NO idea to whom you’re talking to.’
Fucking hell mate….you’re still such a God damn loser.
145 Maggot
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
@Luv4Tahoe (143): I have to assume that all you people who don’t believe in Jesus won’t be celebrating Christmas this year. Otherwise, you would look like assholes.
You assume incorrectly. I don’t fancy myself as a “religious person”, but I greatly enjoy the secular aspects of the holiday season – getting together with family and friends, sharing great food and assorted snacks and goodies, gift-giving and putting smiles on my kids’ faces, the decorations, etc. Gee, I’m all broken up over the fact that you think this makes me look like an asshole. Feeling a little prideful about “your” holiday, are you? You sanctimonious bitch. WWJD?
146 Randall
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
@archiealt (146):
And fuck you, asshole.
And as I’ve said before here–do NOT speak to me, do NOT refer to me. Is that clear?
147 TomCat
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Well,well,well…..Big mouth ass Randall still talking shit he can’t back up.
148 crispin
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
@TomCat (149): I think you missed the part where he…. BACKED IT UP. I’ve had my disagreements with Randall in the past, and one thing you can be sure of is that he knows what the fuck he is talking about.
Oh and by the way, TomCat, your name sounds like the lazy moniker of a transgendered and confused person.
149 TomCat
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Crispin…..you sound like Randalls bitch.
150 mom424
December 22nd, 2009 at 4:36 pm
@TomCat (151): That’s the problem with Randall’s arguments – they’re near impossible to refute point by point – so people resort to foolish sweeping statements/insults. And I’m nobody’s bitch.
151 Randall
December 22nd, 2009 at 4:46 pm
@TomCat (149):
And just what, precisely, prick, do you feel it is that I “can’t back up?”
152 archiealt
December 22nd, 2009 at 5:01 pm
@Randall (148):
Oh I try mate, I really do. You say and do so much stupid stuff that just goes by without anything being said, but c’mon…
‘Don’t fuck with me, Michael… you have NO idea to whom you’re talking to.’
You can’t say something as ridiculous as that without somebody pointing out what a fool you are.
153 Randall
December 22nd, 2009 at 5:37 pm
@archiealt (154):
AND AGAIN, FOR THE LAST TIME…
Fuck you, you little asshole. Your opinion doesn’t interest me in the least, and I’d be willing to bet that no one ELSE here cares about either.
You have ZERO fucking sense of humor; you don’t strike me at all as particularly intelligent yourself, and offer little or nothing to this site… and I think there’s more than just a handful of people here who can’t stand you. And again, I am SICK of this WEIRD fucking obsession with me where you feel it’s necessary to show up on every other thread I contribute to, offering up your worthless (and irrelevant) opinions about me.
The fact that you can’t stop says a lot about you, and frankly I find it sickening and disturbing.
154 Moonbeam
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:04 pm
@dash (141): I’m glad you responded to my post. When you said: “i think racism is wrong, tyranny cannot persist and every person deserves the right to healthcare and education” your sentiments were well written and meaningful. You sound like someone I would like to know.
155 gabi319
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@Luv4Tahoe (143): I have to assume that all you people who don’t believe in Jesus won’t be celebrating Christmas this year. Otherwise, you would look like assholes.
Lol, if you mean by celebrating Christmas as in celebrating Christ’s Mass and the solely Christian traditions such as attending Midnight mass, Misa de Gallo (nine day dawn masses), All-Night Vigil on Christmas Eve… If we did celebrate these things, then yes, we nonbelievers would look like the assholes instead, Luv4Tahoe.
However, if you’re talking about traditions like caroling, parades, yule log, gift giving, tree decorating… in short, traditions that are very much considered secular…Well these started BEFORE Christianity so you can’t exactly lay claim to *everything* this holiday season.
[sarcasm] You’ve made me ashamed of my non-Christian Christmas. [/sarcasm]
Merry Christmas to you, Luv4Tahoe. Feel free to continue your personal Christian Christmas tradition of attempting to bogart this festive season while the rest of us – Christian and nonChristians alike – continue our own tradition of spreading joy and happiness to those around us.
A treat for those of you actually interested in this fine list Dash put together:
This is a Joan Baez music video called “Stones in the Road.” Not only was it real footage of her visit to Sarajevo but around the 2:53 mark you see and hear Vedran Smailovic playing his cello.
156 archiealt
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@Randall (155):
God love you Randall. Sometimes you do bring a smile to my face.
157 Chanchita
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Randall made me laugh with his toff´s error in the first line of comment 136. You sound more stupid than if you´d just ended the sentence with a preposition and been done with it.
And PLEASE stop SHOUTING at us all with your very BIG LETTERS every now and then. Why do I get the impression that you are the kind of person, if I were to get into a spoken debate with you, who would talk over me as soon as I said something you didn´t like. Or should that be “whom” would talk over me… Please help me Randall, I´m just so confused with my grammar and I need a super intelligent man like you to explain all its intricacies.
Anyway, I really liked this list. Despite there being others who also deserved places on the list, and despite quibbles over the order of these entries, I don´t think anyone can deny that all of these people were inspirational. Well, these actions all a lot more courageous, righteous and admirable than anything I´ve ever done, anyway.
158 gabi319
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:34 pm
@gabi319 (157):
*EDIT* Smailovic plays on his own at the 3:53 mark.
159 crispin
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:35 pm
@TomCat (151): I picture you as a transvestite, TomCat. A gaunt, crack-addled, filthy gutter whore begging to jabber my jobbie.
160 FromtheWest
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Peter Tosh of Bob Marley and The Wailers wrote and sang Get Up, Stand Up.
161 dash
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:43 pm
@Moonbeam (156): @Moonbeam (156): Hi moonbeam,thank you.I’d like to get to know u as well.
162 Vera Lynn
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:05 pm
The boy from troy (129) Thank you for responding. It is depressing and sad. But people have to know it was no different that what happened in Rwanda or WW2 And yes I know the significance of that. I am a Jew, and we lost many family members during that terrible war. The whole motto is “Never again” but it has happened again and will happen again. Too fuckin sad. We as a people will never learn.
163 Vera Lynn
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Moonbeam and Dash (163) Go for it. MPW and I have been together for a year and a half. Ive never been happier. Life is funny. Take advantage of opportunities.
164 keyshock
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:00 pm
At the risk of being called Randall’s bitch, I’d have to agree with him on this one. You can screw with the guy, but you can’t screw with his evidence. He can be a know-it-all at times, but at least he backs it up. Can’t say the same for his detractors.
165 Hunter
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Regarding Randall, Michael etc….I’ve just recently seen a Discovery Channel program called “Who was Jesus?” University of Illinois at Chicago professor Rachel Havrelock was asked if there was any direct evidence for Jesus’ existence outside of the Bible?
Here is what she said:
Josephus, a first century Jewish historian, wrote of Jesus in the Greek version of the Antiquities of the Jews. He described Jesus as a “wise man” and a “doer of wonderful works.” The fact that Josephus referenced Jesus reveals that stories about Jesus were already gaining momentum.
It is really kind of ridiculous thinking Jesus was not an individual or never existed.
166 Michael
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:30 am
Randall,
Again, please try to be precise and please make an effort not to ramble. I expect a well considered reply to contain a reference or two, of which you have offered none.
I have offered up a great learning institution such as Yale while you, none. I am more than satisfied with their studies and continue to agree with their explanations.
Your efforts are appreciated however and we enjoyed your reply.
Regards
Michael
167 signe
December 23rd, 2009 at 4:03 am
Great list Dash, really enjoyed it! I did expect to find Jan Palach on it, but that is how it is with all lists, they are subjective. I don’t really understand Rosa Park being that high on the list, but mabye it is difficult to understand the whole context as a non-american?
But awesome list, the tank man brings tears to my eyes!
168 Randall
December 23rd, 2009 at 4:49 am
@Michael (168):
Now I can say “nice try” to YOU, Michael. MENTIONING Yale does not make for a reference. CITE by name the scholars you’re referring to. You’ve had two opportunities to do that and yet have failed to do so both times. That further raises my suspicions that you are merely making the whole damn thing up.
169 Randall
December 23rd, 2009 at 4:57 am
@Chanchita (159):
I hate to tell you Chanchita, but I believe my grammar was correct in that opening line. If you’d like to dispute that, go ahead. (But if it should happen to turn out that I was incorrect–and again, I don’t think I was–oh well. If you think one grammatical slip-up actually proves me to be “stupid,” I think your bias would be showing… badly).
It always interests me that when people don’t like something I’ve said, they attack the WAY I said it, or they attack me.
I don’t care if you dislike caps, Canchita. I use them for *emphasis,* not to give the appearance of shouting. A whole sentence or paragraph of caps would be shouting. Not merely one word capitalized. But I suppose that’s a matter of interpretation. In any case, you don’t have to read my comments. If you don’t like them, skip over them, and then keep your mouth shut. Complaints of your type contribute NOTHING to the discussion—they merely detract from it and waste time.
170 Scratch
December 23rd, 2009 at 7:56 am
@FromtheWest (162):
Actually “Get Up Stand Up” was written by Peter Tosh AND Bob Marley. Peter Tosh sang lead on one verse and backup on the rest while Marley sang lead for almost the whole song.
I do think Tosh’s verse was the strongest in the song, though.
171 Scratch
December 23rd, 2009 at 7:59 am
@Chanchita (159):
Whom should only be used to signify something in the object position. Thus, “whom would talk over me” is incorrect while “whom he would talk over” would be correct. You probably don’t care, though.
172 Moonbeam
December 23rd, 2009 at 8:07 am
@Vera Lynn (165): Thanks for the lovely thought, but I’m married. I’m sure Dash could do much better than the likes of me! Plus I’m a woman but I’m not aware of Dash’s gender. I just admire this list it’s beautiful and touching, and I respected Dash’s well expressed sentiments about injustice.
Did you and MPW meet through Listverse? I wonder how jfrater feels knowing his site may be bringing people together. Very sweet.
Although this site also drives people against each other as in the frequent discord that arises among those that add comments here. – On second thought it’s not really this website that drives people into disputes, but people’s passionate and strongly held and expressed beliefs, I supose.
173 YaImGoingToSayIt
December 23rd, 2009 at 8:45 am
Half of these people are whiny little children if you ask me.
174 Vera Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:11 am
Moonbeam (174) Yes we met here. JFrater knows. We’re not the only ones.
175 Maggot
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:07 am
@Vera Lynn (176): Yes we met here. JFrater knows. We’re not the only ones.
It’s a Listverse miracle !
[getting misty eyed]
176 Maggot
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:12 am
@Randall (171): I don’t care if you dislike caps, Canchita. I use them for *emphasis,*
Excuse me, but what the hell are those little asterisk thingies for then? Do I emphasize, do I not emphasize? Do I look for footnotes? WTF? I’m so confused.
Complaints of your type contribute NOTHING
Ahhhh, order is restored.
177 Randall
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:14 am
@Maggot (178):
The asterisks are for *less emphatic* emphasis, doof. Whaddya think?
And you should always be looking for footnotes. I hide them in every comment. First one to find ‘em gets a Wii.
178 Cubone
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
Cool list!
179 Maggot
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:44 pm
@Randall (179): The asterisks are for *less emphatic* emphasis, doof.
So there are varying degrees of emphasis now? Well lookit Mr. Fancy Pants.
Whaddya think?
I think you just make things up as you go along. I have a third cousin twice removed who owns a couple of Yale sweatshirts and he wrote about it in the blog that he publishes from his apartment in his mom’s basement, which as everyone knows, makes it factual. See, unlike you, I know how to back stuff up. So who’s the doof now?
footnotes…First one to find ‘em gets a Wii
I have better ways to spend my time, like playing WoW for hours on end. Man, you’re a loser.
180 Aleks
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I love your site! And with this list (and the comments on it), I’ve been inspired me to comment, for better or worse.
1) Thank you for yet another awesome list! Just in time for the holidays, another group of people to inspire selfless acts.
2) These are individual protests, not martyrs. You don’t have to die in order to protest. Marley belongs on this list as much as Rosa Parks does. And yes, she belongs. She protested, all by herself, which means she meets the criteria. Protests do not have to be successful to exist.
3) I love the comments; they make me think just as much and as deeply as the list does.
181 shadowrules
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm
@Randall (179): I have inspected your gravatar which contains 900 pixels. The pixel at position (03,17)contained a strange anomaly that led me to a website. This website contained strange encrypted data. I was able to crack this code using a secret government decryption program. After sifting through several references to a secretion from the nether regions of a wood gnawing mammal, I was able to obtain the footnotes you referenced. I will be sending you this data via a private message and will expect my WII to arrive in time to be WII bowling by Christmas evening. Thanks and Happy Holidays.
182 Randall
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:36 pm
@Maggot (181):
“So there are varying degrees of emphasis now?”
Sometimes I use my hands when I talk. Sometimes I use other parts.
“Well lookit Mr. Fancy Pants.”
I’m not wearing pants.
“I think you just make things up as you go along.”
That’s a distinct fuckin’ possibility. Depends on how wasted I am.
“I have a third cousin twice removed who owns a couple of Yale sweatshirts and he wrote about it in the blog that he publishes from his apartment in his mom’s basement, which as everyone knows, makes it factual.”
Who could argue with that? Who can even understand it?
“See, unlike you, I know how to back stuff up. So who’s the doof now?”
bucslim.
“I have better ways to spend my time, like playing WoW for hours on end. Man, you’re a loser.”
Wait, what’d ya say? I was checking Doctor Who spoilers online…
183 Randall
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:41 pm
@shadowrules (183):
Very thorough, and very ingenious. I’ll have to hide the things in my crotch in future. I *know* you clowns won’t look *there.*
But wait shadow! Did you remember to include sixteen Frosted Flakes boxtops? And a stamped, self-addressed envelope? Offer is void without these items. Shoulda seen that in the fine print in my gravatar… right under my tongue.
Speaking of which, buried in the code on that website are the blueprints for building a set of illegal and quite nasty sex toys. So don’t let the kids see.
184 Chanchita
December 23rd, 2009 at 6:58 pm
@ Scratch (173) Thanks, I was being sarcastic though; I know how to use “whom”.
@ Randall: I never said you were stupid. I said you sounded stupid. Your grammar was wrong. The preposition (“to”) is normally placed at the end of the sentence in speech; however this is not correct. Your sentence minus the “to” at the end is the correct way to use “whom” and the correct place in which to put the preposition. Not “the correct place in which to put the preposition in” (second preposition incorrect as well as superfluous). This isn´t meant to be patronising, seriously. I´m just telling you.
I wasn´t even particularly disagreeing with the content of what you said. It´s just that when you try to make an argument sound fancy by using correct but less commonly used constructions and then get those constructions wrong, it rather distracts the distinguished reader from the content of that argument.
By the way, and I´m sure it was just a typing error (or, as I believe you Americans call it, a “typo”), but I´m “Chanchita” not “Canchita”. That would make me a small football pitch.
Thank you for reading.
185 Chanchita
December 23rd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Oh, and if only we could write in italics on LV. Then there would be no need for the shouting.
186 bucslim
December 23rd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
@Randall (184):
“See, unlike you, I know how to back stuff up. So who’s the doof now?”
“bucslim.”
You can’t back that up, so who’s the doof *NOW*?
187 Chanchita
December 23rd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
@ Aleks (182) I like you! Merry Christmas!
188 Michael
December 24th, 2009 at 3:29 am
Randall,
You also cite no references. Your argument is as weak as the grammatical structure that Chanchita points out.
Again, good try.
Regards
Michael
189 Michael
December 24th, 2009 at 3:29 am
Randall,
You also cite no references. Your argument is as weak as the grammatical structure that Chanchita points out. Again, good try.
Regards
Michael
190 astraya
December 24th, 2009 at 4:25 am
We can write in italics. SEE?
Michael Swan, Practical English Usage (Oxford) is about as authoritative a grammar reference as there is. He says “In English, prepositions can come at the ends of clauses in certain structures, especially in an informal style”.
He gives as examples “What are you thinking about?”, “You’re just the the person I was looking for”, “She’s not very easy to talk to” and “I hate being shouted at” (hah!)
The first two can be rewritten, but sound stilted (“About what are you thinking?” and “You’re just the person for whom I was looking”, but the last two can’t.)
As Winston Churchill probably didn’t say “This is sort of English up with which I shall not put”.
astraya’s first law of internet discussion: “Focus on a grammatical point probably means you have nothing relevant to say about the actual topic”.
There’s a flashing advertisement at the bottom of my screen and it is driving me CRAZY, so I’ll have to click “submit” right now.
191 astraya
December 24th, 2009 at 4:27 am
And there are degrees of emphasis. If you click on “Read me first”, just above the comment box, you will find the code for:
bold text
bold text
underline text
192 Maggot
December 24th, 2009 at 10:19 am
@astraya (193): The “underline text” (quotes not added for emphasis) does not work. So when I was reading your post, I just put normal inflection on that part of it it. I hope you don’t mind. I still got the gist of it though, so no worries. Even though it did feel like I was missing something. I tried imagining your implied emphasis, but it just wasn’t the same. If it is any consolation, when I read your bold text passage, I was REALLY taken aback with emphatic emotion.
193 k1w1taxi
December 25th, 2009 at 2:41 am
@get a clue (67):
Indeed not only did his actions not change anything in the broad sense they are according to a 20 year anniversary doco I watched earlier this year almost completely unknown in China today.
As to what happened to him nobody knows. It is not even known who the people were that eventually helped him away from the tanks. Friends? Police? -though the lack of any trial publicity is thought to preclude that.
Cheers
Lee
194 k1w1taxi
December 25th, 2009 at 2:48 am
@Avi (13):
Over rated? I don’t think so. Nor apparently did the US Government when they allowed her body to be the first of a woman and only the 2nd African American to lie in the Capitol Rotunda after her Death.
Cheers
Lee
195 Vera Lynn
December 25th, 2009 at 3:25 am
Oh my. I dont think I want to get involved in this. The competition is out of my league.
196 Tron
December 25th, 2009 at 5:05 am
Maybe I’m missing something but how is # 8 (the HIV positive campaigner) a protest?
The others on the list sure they’re protesting something. What is that guy ‘protesting’.
‘hey man take these or your gonna die ALOT sooner than you will if you take these antiretroviral drugs’
‘nah i’m good. I dont want the meds’
he’s a hero he’s a 1 man protest army!!!
no… he’s just some guy who doesn’t take drugs. I know people who don’t take tylonel when they get headaches are they also great 1 person protesters?
197 dash
December 25th, 2009 at 11:49 am
@Tron (198): Hello Tron,
Zachie Achmat refused to take the drugs because he felt that it was unfair for people without the means to go without them. The idea here is to put pressure on his government and other officials to extend the realm of healthcare to all people, regardless of economic background.
198 Chanchita
December 25th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
@ Astraya (192) What is so difficult for people to understand about what I´m saying?
Randall made what is known as a toff´s error, because he tried to use the correct grammar (To whom you are talking) rather than the commonly used, accepted version (Who you are talking to), but he got it wrong, and would have been better off sticking with the widely used version.
199 Scratch
December 26th, 2009 at 7:18 am
@Chanchita (200):
A toff’s error is when you use the incorrect pronoun. Randall used the correct pronoun so it was not a toff’s error. The mistake was using a preposition at both the end and the beginning of his clause.
200 Randall
December 26th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
@Chanchita (200):
I’m gone for a few days to celebrate the holiday with friends and family, and I come back to find this ridiculous debate about my grammar still carrying on. Pathetic.
Okay Chanchita. Let’s straighten you out on a few points.
A) My error was in absent-mindedly adding the “to” at the end of that sentence. Happy? It was unintentional, naturally, and that kind of thing occasionally happens, even to me. I don’t always have time to thoroughly proofread everything I post here. This isn’t a publication–this is an internet forum. I agree people should try to be as grammatically correct as possible, and to write as well as they can. I certainly hold to that tenet. But there are limits to what you can and should do when tossing commentary up on a site such as this.
B) BUT… a “toff’s error?” Hardly. Rather, Chanchita, it’s quite clear that you pulled this accusation out of your ass because it was all you could find to hold against me. And why would you do that? Well, I can only guess that you have some little personal animosity towards me—because why else would you bother? And before you or anyone else starts accusing me of being overly sensitive or even paranoid, let’s look back to how you handled this from the start. I quote:
“Randall made me laugh with his toff´s error in the first line of comment 136. You sound more stupid than if you´d just ended the sentence with a preposition and been done with it.”
This little pair of sentences just *drip* with hostility. I don’t think anyone else would have cared or even thought to point out my VERY SLIGHT error in my original post… after all, it WAS very slight, and excuse me for the way I was brought up, Chanchita, but I was TAUGHT to use “whom” and use it properly, as PROPER grammar. At any rate–as I say, I think anyone else would have just glossed over it. You, however–chose to jump right on it.
What does this make you out to be? Well, on the one hand, a sanctimonious grammar nazi of the sort that *no one* ever likes or, frankly, really listens to. At bottom, a smug sort of stickler for every little tight-assed rule of grammar is almost always the type of person who hides their inability to address the *substance* of a statement or argument with a vulgar focus on unimportant and irrelevant detail. The analogy is with the sort of person who, in an argument, will jump on an opponent’s error in dates, or in citing a source, and claim it as some kind of victory.
On the other hand, Chanchita, as I say, I think from reading your responses to me that it’s rather obvious that, from the very beginning, you were simply nitpicking for the sake of it because you don’t like the way I comport myself here–and so you childishly grabbed for the first thing you could try to embarrass me with.
But if anyone made a humiliating error here, then, it was YOU, Chanchita—because your bias is all too obvious, and your small-mindedness is writ large here for everyone to see. In short, you look the fool. Not me.
Let’s look further:
“And PLEASE stop SHOUTING at us all with your very BIG LETTERS every now and then.”
Again, I find it interesting that no one else ever seems to have much of a problem with my occasional use of caps—or if they do they find it unworthy of mentioning–because to any reasonable person it’s quite clear that’s a convenience of emphasis and nothing more. YOU, however, decided to make a point of mentioning it. Why? Is it THAT important? I hardly think so. Rather, it’s simply more evidence that you’re a humorless, hyper-focused, tight assed bore of a person.
“Why do I get the impression that you are the kind of person, if I were to get into a spoken debate with you, who would talk over me as soon as I said something you didn´t like. Or should that be “whom” would talk over me… Please help me Randall, I´m just so confused with my grammar and I need a super intelligent man like you to explain all its intricacies.”
This sad attempt at sarcasm simply seals the deal. Clearly from the start this was nothing more than a personal attack masquerading behind some attempt to poke at my grammar. Your bias, therefore, is what is at the heart of the matter here—not that I said anything that was inaccurate, or out of turn, or in any way indefensible. Because nothing I said *was* wrong or poorly considered–and certainly not poorly written. You jumped on a tiny grammatical error because that’s ALL YOU HAD.
And here, several comments later, it’s still carrying on–even though it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the discussion of the list itself.
As I’ve pointed out many times–this only happens when someone, such as yourself, has nothing germane or intelligent to say–they’re simply frustrated and bitter and want to try to undermine someone else.
I suggest, therefore, that you cease nipping at my heels and shut the f**k up before you embarrass yourself further.
201 Randall
December 26th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
@Michael (191):
It’s quite clear there’s no point in actually responding to you, as you obviously have nothing important, intelligent, or even truthful to say about this matter (if you had, you would have said it by now–you’ve had more than ample opportunity) but as I am trying to kill some time before heading off to a dinner party, I might as well finish you off and be done with this.
Now then… I hasten to point out that YOU, Michael, were making the extraordinary claim here, not I. It is an extraordinary claim to A) maintain that Jesus never existed and/or was an amalgam of other prophets and teachers… and B) to further claim that Yale had collectively endorsed this view. In making extraordinary claims, Michael, we must put forth extraordinary evidence. Thus far, you have offered NONE. Not even a citation of the scholars at Yale whom you claim to have made these conclusions about the non-historicity of Jesus as a figure.
And before you even go there (if you’re even still looking in–which I highly doubt–cowards and liars generally don’t hang around long enough to be shown up for what they are… they almost always let it happen in their absence, because they are, after all, cowardly) let’s make it clear that in stating that Jesus WAS a real person who once lived (setting aside claims of his divinity), *I* am not the one making an extraordinary claim. Rather, I am simply supporting the MAINSTREAM and WIDELY accepted paradigm of historians and theologians for CENTURIES, based on the collection of convergent evidence.
So once again, I repeat—either cough up proof for your statements, Michael–or admit you were simply bullshitting everyone here in a lame attempt to validate an invalid argument.
Oh… and since you pathetically and irrelevantly feel it was some sort of “point” in your favor to indicate MY lack of references (though as I say, I am under no obligation to provide any, since I am not the one making the odd or unusual claim here) I’ll offer up some right off the top of my head, just to put further lie to your “argument” (such as it is–which isn’t much).
And since you cited Yale, here are just THREE Yale professors who have written on and taught about the historicity of Jesus, and of course support that historicity: John P. Meier; Bentley Layton; Dale Martin. There are many others. I could go on to pick out names of scholars who hold the same view at Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Duke, Cambridge, Oxford… etc. etc. etc., both contemporary and in the past.
So the thing is, Michael, either put up or shut up. You have made the claim that the Yale History Department has essentially denied the historical existence of a figure called Jesus Christ. PROVE it. Tell us the names of these people and in what scholarly tome, journals, and papers they made this conclusive claim. ONE scholar is not enough, because you have made it clear that you claim this to be the consensus of an ENTIRE department. So name names… or else admit it was just bullshit from the get-go.
202 JohnDoh
December 26th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
*drumroll* And the award for pseudo-intellectual of 2009 goes to…RANDALL!!!
Give it up pal, your ego’s writing cheques your intellect can’t cash.
In the real world, there is in fact no solid evidence that Jesus was a real person. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t; the fact is that the waters have been muddied so much that we’ll probably never know for sure.
203 Randall
December 26th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
@JohnDoh (204):
Stick it up your ass, punk. You don’t go around mouthing off to people when you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
As I’ve said MANY times jerk, there’s no “solid evidence” of ANYONE’S existence from ancient history, except kings and the like. If you want a fucking birth certificate, no, you’re not going to get it. FOR ANYONE all we have is what may be written ABOUT them by others.
In the case of Jesus, as with MANY other figures from ancient history, we have only a few mentions of him here and there in various texts. Tacitus being one who mentions him, Josephus being another. But there are also the Gospels–and while these are not contemporary with Jesus—as we have them in there PRESENT form—THEY in fact have been traced with reasonable certainty to EARLIER texts which were written somewhere between 30 to 60 years after Jesus’ death.
Ancient peoples were no more gullible or willing to accept total fabrications in their midst than we are. It is therefore HIGHLY unlikely that someone or a group of someones could just “make up” a figure like Jesus out of whole cloth and expect people to just swallow it without question only a few decades after their creation’s fictional life. Someone would not only have *noticed,* but would have cried foul loudly and repeatedly.
But this did NOT happen. Not one Roman, Hebrew, or Greek–or anyone else–even QUESTIONED the veracity of Jesus’ existence. It was accepted as writ that the man had lived and been a real person. No one even ATTEMPTED to suggest that he had not been real–even when it would have served their political and/or social agendas to do so.
All this—the lack of ANY challenge to his existence by those who were contemporary to him or near-contemporary–and then the actual testimony that he DID exist by disinterested or even hostile parties–combined with the written descriptions of his life that are traceable back to nearly the time when he lived–are what historians call CONVERGENT EVIDENCE. It is the same principle by which MANY events, persons, and facts are known from history which is either not modern or is not DIRECTLY proveable by clear documentation.
This has been accepted by historians and scholars for centuries. Only ill-informed loudmouths, like yourself, do not understand this and assume that because there isn’t some single piece of “proof” which makes Jesus undeniable ON ITS OWN, then we just can’t know if he was real or not. That’s simple bullshit.
So tell you what, dick. You wanted to mock me… you’ve only fallen flat on your face.
204 …blick
December 26th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
@Randall (205):
You’re full of shit Randall. For all your bluster you still don’t/can’t put forward any evidence. CONVERGENT EVIDENCE my ass, if he did exist and was the person that people say he was then there would definitely be actual evidence of his existence left. But funnily enough there is no physical evidence. The only thing that would prove it might be the shroud and no one will test that. Fuck off with your bullshit.
205 Randall
December 27th, 2009 at 12:15 am
@…blick (206):
I can’t believe the number of sheer dimwits that exist out there in this world who think they know better than A) a trained historian (me) and B) trained historians and scholars THROUGHOUT FUCKING HISTORY.
It just boggles my mind. It leaves me just downright gobsmacked that stupid people (such as you, “…blick”) will actually air their ignorance before the whole world and actually think they know what the fuck they’re talking about. It’s downright disgusting.
“…if he did exist and was the person that people say he was then there would definitely be actual evidence of his existence left. But funnily enough there is no physical evidence.”
To begin with, moron, your statement makes ZERO sense. “If he did exist then there’d be physical evidence left?” What the fuck does that even MEAN? Like, what? We’d have his bones? His personal possessions? Maybe clothes with his monogram? What the fuck are you even TALKING about? WHAT physical evidence?
I could name for you dozens and dozens of historical personages for which we have NO “physical evidence” to prove that they ever existed. Nevertheless, we accept their existence. Why? Sometimes because of overwhelming documentation. But oftentimes because of CONVERGENT EVIDENCE you idiot!
Convergent evidence is a principle which makes up for our acceptance of MOST of the past, in fact. It’s how we know that practically ANYTHING happened in the pre-modern era.
And what planet have YOU been living on? “No one” will test the Shroud? Are you out of your fucking mind? Or just that incredibly stupid and uninformed? IN FACT, you pinhead, the Shroud of Turin HAS been tested AT LEAST twice by two different scientific teams. The general consensus at the moment is that it’s a fraud–dating has placed its origin somewhere between the late 12th century and the early 14th, I believe. But it’s also anatomically inaccurate and can’t have covered an actual three-dimensional body.
The testing done on the Shroud is no secret–the first group tested it in the late 70s for chrissakes!
If that’s what you mean by “physical evidence”–some actual object contemporaneous with Jesus which we could somehow “know” was his or had been in contact with him–then you’re out of your freakin’ mind or just incredibly stupid. We have almost NOTHING of that nature for ANYONE in history going back beyond, oh, say, five hundred years ago. And even in that period of time the physical evidence is far and away in the minority for anyone we could name. Convergent evidence of one kind or another is what we rely on, as well as direct writings of course, if a person produced writings of their own or were written about by multiple persons who were contemporaneous with them.
So in short, jackass…. “fuck off” with MY bullshit? I haven’t spouted any bullshit here. YOU, on the other hand, are clearly some numbskulled ignoramus who doesn’t even know what they’re talking about.
206 …blick
December 27th, 2009 at 12:24 am
@Randall (207):
Tut tut. Poor grammar, I think you meant:
“Convergent evidence is a principle THAT makes up for our acceptance”, not which.
Haha – fuck you!
207 JohnDoh
December 27th, 2009 at 7:25 am
@Randall
As a trained historian I’m sure you know that many people over the last 2000 years have had a vested interest in promoting the fact that Jesus was a real man, and destroying any information to the contrary. Because of this, anything but solid proof of his existence is just not good enough I’m afraid.
I realise that much of the history we know isn’t proven, but then again little of it carries the same importance as Christianity/Jesus.
208 Randall
December 27th, 2009 at 10:12 am
@JohnDoh (209):
So…. now it’s the result of a *conspiracy,* of people suppressing the evidence that proved Jesus’ non-existence?
Sure.
Yeah, okay… we’re done. Arguing with people who grasp at straws is a pointless exercise.
209 Randall
December 27th, 2009 at 10:14 am
@…blick (208):
And so… you’re *how* old? Thirteen?
210 JohnDoh
December 27th, 2009 at 11:37 am
No, I didn’t say conspiracy Randy, now you’re just being dishonest. Now – stupid zealots I don’t mind. But stupid, dishonest zealots I just cannot abide.
Over and out.
PS. If you ever find the proof, be sure to tell the Catholic Church, I’m fairly sure they’d pay you well for it.
211 mom424
December 27th, 2009 at 11:41 am
@JohnDoh (209): Your argument fails simply because at the time of Jesus’ death there were more folks who would profit from denying his existence than the other way around. Do you not think that the Romans would have done everything in their power to quash this upstart, meddling and troublesome Jesus “myth”? They couldn’t because Jesus was a real person. The fishes and loaves and miracles bit? nah, but the guy? for sure.
212 Randall
December 27th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
@JohnDoh (212):
A) A conspiracy to suppress facts is precisely what you were talking about AND implying. What else was it?
B) are you ACTUALLY accusing ME of being “stupid?” I suggest you take a look in the mirror, jackass. You have YET to say a single intelligent thing on here.
C) And are you actually trying to call ME a “zealot?” No, moron—you see, I am an historian. I hold an advanced degree in ancient history, and used to teach it in college. I am NOT a Christian per se (though I was raised Presbyterian, I freely admit). I certainly don’t attend any church. I’m simply a logical, intelligent person who understands how history works and am capable of critical thinking.
You, on the other hand…
213 Tron
December 28th, 2009 at 6:17 am
@Dash
alright cool thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding about # 8. Makes more sense to me now.
214 cascading spirit
December 29th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Music is the most universal form of art… It caters to masses, and reaches everyone. I believe Bob Marley influenced and encouraged a lot of people through his music. Until now his music still inspires us to fight for our rights… yet still, this entry doesn’t fit as as “Individual Protests” list, I’m sorry.
215 erickarthik
December 29th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Kinda expected Gandhi, Dr King and Tank man. None the less, Amazing list !!!
216 Hg
January 9th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
I Think you can add EMINEM and his Song “Mosh” of “Encore” Album as a Bonus one. It was virtual protest with whole country against bush. however it didn’t work.
217 Robotsonic
January 19th, 2010 at 6:58 am
@Josh (5):
I’m Tank Man and so is my wife.
218 ellyn
January 19th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
only one woman? disappointing
219 sirMouse
February 19th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
I know I am posting rather later than most, but I have only recently discovered the infinite joy that is the commenting system.
You may ask ‘What have I done to invoke this wonderful and incredibly beautiful lady’s wrath?’
Let me tell you.
Firstly.
Jesus was a person.
Anyone who debates this point is a complete and utter fuckhead. I say that in the most civilised way possible. Whether or not he was born of a virgin and did magic tricks is debatable, but that he was a historical figure is not.
There is as much, if not more, proof that Jesus existed as there is of near anyone else of his day (forgive me for stressing this point, I know it’s been covered considerably). Do you really expect there to be DNA evidence, birth certificates or fingerprints left over from the first century? What the fuck kind of physical evidence are you looking for?
And before you call me out on my blatantly Christian ways I’m agnostic, so shove it up your arse
Secondly.
The placement, if not inclusion, of some items is a little odd.
I, being British, may not entirely understand the ramifications of Rosa Parks’ actions in America, but in the rest of the world it did shit all. She didn’t get out of a chair. Many, many people before her have sat down. Lots of them stayed in their chairs. A few got arrested for it. She says herself that she was just tired. Let me remind you this is a list about protests. No matter how famous she became and what she set off, she was not protesting. I assure you, I am a woman. There is no anti-feminism going on, she is just not relevant to the list.
Zackie Achmat. I don’t deny that denying himself drugs was a protest, although a rather silly one. What I do want to point out is that he set fire to his school. Any other 14 year old boy who set fire to his school is given therapy and quite possibly time in a young offenders institute. But not this one. We were proud of this one. Maybe I’m out of line on this point. Maybe.
Bob Marley sang a song. While a protest song, it is still just a song. He doesn’t rank among any of the other people on this list. I can think of plenty of people more deserving.
Namely, the ‘Tractor Guy’. In New Zealand a man drove his tractor up the steps of parliament. I have no idea what he was protesting, and no idea what the consequences were. But, frankly, it was cool.
I think I’ve written enough, consider yourself wrathed.
220 Wira
April 13th, 2010 at 10:49 am
Muhammad Ali didn’t want to go to Vietnam…
221 trys
May 8th, 2010 at 12:58 am
ROSA PARKS did something all of us could do (but usually do not). This is more important than the brave deeds of extraordinary people. She is is a ‘role model’ for ordinary people, and belongs to that list like many others not mentioned here.
222 @asdrubalivan
July 18th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
What about Bobby Sands?