10 Cases of Fetal Abduction in the US
Published on September 20, 2008 - 146 Comments
[WARNING: Some content on this list may disturb some readers] The phenomenon known as fetal abduction seems to defy all logic and challenges us to confront an unthinkable crime. In a publication titled “Newborn Kidnapping by Caesarean Section,” published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences in 2002 by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, there were 8 documented cases of fetal abduction in the USA. I have found two more since that study was published, bringing the total to ten. Most of the offenders have traits in common, such as faking a pregnancy up until the point where they would eventually be expected to give birth. Planning ahead for the inevitable end of their “pregnancy,” they seek out a woman or women who are near term and either befriend them or simply stalk them with the intent of stealing their baby straight from their womb. At least ten women have not only plotted and planned such a heinous act, but followed through and done it. In most cases, the baby survives and the mom is murdered. [JFrater: Due to the terrible nature of the crimes listed here, there are no images to match each item.]
In the first recorded instance of fetal abduction in the United States, Darci Pierce, 19, kidnapped eight-month pregnant Cindy Ray as she left a prenatal clinic at Kirkland Air Force Base in New Mexico. Peirce eventually strangled Ray, killing her, and used a car key to remove her unborn child. The child survived the attack. Millie, the daughter of murdered Cindy Ray, who is well aware of the circumstances surrounding her entrance into the world, when asked what she thinks of Darci Peirce said, “I don’t think of Darci Pierce.”
In this case, three perpetrators identified as Jacqueline Williams, her boyfriend Fedell Caffey and her cousin Lavern Ward went to the apartment of Deborah Evans and shot her in the head. They then used a knife and scissors to remove her fetus. The three also killed two of Evans’ other children. Evans was the ex-girlfriend of one of her killers and actually had a child with him. The baby was eventually recovered alive.
Felicia Scott, 29, sliced open Carenthia Curry, 17, and stole her child before shooting the mother in the head and stuffing her body in a plastic garbage bag. In this case, the perpetrator and the victim were friends. They had plans to go out to dinner, when Scott abducted Curry. When Curry did not return home by the next day, the family reported her as missing. The abductor returned home in the early morning hours the next day and told her husband that she had had her baby and needed to see her doctor. Three months later, the victim mother’s body was located at the bottom of a 50-foot ravine, stuffed into a plastic garbage can sealed with duct tape. The victim’s abdomen had been sliced open and she had been shot repeatedly in the head. The baby girl survived.
Josephina Saldana contacted Margarita Flores and offered her family gifts of free baby furniture and a one-year supply of diapers. The woman went to the victim’s on the day of the abduction and told her that they needed to go to a warehouse to collect the gifts. The victim was eight months pregnant. When Flores did not return, the family called the police. The next day, Saldana showed up at a hospital with a dead fetus. She claimed she had given birth to the child in her car. She was subsequently arrested and found guilty. While in prison she hung herself.
Michelle Bica, 39, was faking a pregnancy when she casually met Teresa Andrews, 23, while the two were shopping. They exchanged home addresses, and Bica began stalking Andrews, who was pregnant. Bica eventually shot and killed Andrews and removed her fetus and buried her body in a shallow grave in her garage. There is haunting video of the first few days of the baby’s life as Michelle Bica shows off her “new baby” to family and friends. Bica shot herself as FBI agents showed up at her house to question her.
Effie Goodson, 37, shot Carolyn Simpson, 21, in the head, and then used a knife to cut out the woman’s 6-month-old fetus. Goodson was arrested after taking the dead fetus to a hospital, claiming to be the mother. In this case, the perpetrator, Effie Goodsen, was a patron of the casino where the victim mother was employed. Video cameras at the casino captured the image of the victim and the suspect departing the building. The abductor offered to give the victim a ride home and also provide her with some baby clothes. The victim’s husband reported her missing. The next day, Goodsen arrived at the hospital with a very small, unresponsive infant. Staff determined that the three month premature infant was deceased. An exam of the alleged mother proved that she had not recently delivered a baby and law enforcement was notified. Hunters found the victim’s body a few days later in a ditch about two miles from where the abductor used to live. The victim had been shot in the head and her abdomen had been cut open. Goodsen was found incompetent to stand trial.
Lisa Montgomery, 37, drove from her Kansas home to the house of Bobbie Jo Stinnett, where she strangled the 23-year-old woman before using a knife to cut out her unborn daughter. In this case, the perpetrator and victim mother were casual acquaintances. The victim mother was 8 months pregnant at the time of the incident. She and her husband bred rat terrier dogs and had a website. Montgomery had contacted the victim using a fake name and requested directions to the residence under the guise of buying a dog. The victim’s mother arrived at her daughter’s home about 1 hour later and found the victim lying in a pool of blood, the fetus cut from her womb. Premature but healthy, baby Victoria Jo Stinnett, was recovered in Melvern Kansas the day after her birth.
Tiffany Hall killed a pregnant woman, Jimella Tunstall, cut the fetus from her womb, drowned the pregnant woman’s three young children, ages 7, 2 and 1, and left them in the washing machine and dryer of the family’s apartment. The two women grew up together and attended the same schools. Hall frequently baby-sat Tunstall’s children. Hall knocked Tunstall unconscious and then cut the unborn baby from her womb with a pair of scissors. She left Tunstall’s body in a vacant lot. The baby did not survive the attack.
Phiengchai Sisouvanh Synhavong, 23, stabbed and killed Araceli Camacho Gomez, 27, in the chest multiple times and then cut out her fetus. Court documents said Gomez had her hands and feet bound with yarn. Gloves soaked in blood, a boxcutter, bloody paper towels, yarn, baby bottles and baby socks were among some of the items found in Sisouvanh Synhavong’s purse. The child survived and the killer tried to pass the baby off as her own when she called police for help. She was arrested when it became apparent she did not give birth to a child.
18-year-old Kia Johnson’s body was discovered in the apartment of Andrea Curry-Demus, 38. Johnson’s womb had been ripped out and Curry-Demus had taken the baby as her own. Curry-Demus had just been released from jail after serving 8 years for stabbing a woman in a plot to take her baby and then kidnapping a baby from a hospital. Johnson didn’t know about her past, but found herself victim to the woman’s plot to steal a baby. The baby survived.
Contributor: rushfan
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1. Anon - September 21st, 2008 at 2:25 am
I saw number 2 on the news
2. cheesedrummer - September 21st, 2008 at 2:31 am
this is so horrible…. it’s hard to comprehend that people would even THINK about doing this to another person let along actually DOING it.
3. astraya - September 21st, 2008 at 2:38 am
I knew it was going to be rushfan!
4. smurff - September 21st, 2008 at 2:42 am
These women are not human they are damn monsters, it is just unthinkable what some some people are capable off. This list is going to give me nightmares.
Good research - I look forward to this list everyday.
5. MT - September 21st, 2008 at 2:55 am
Good list. In some cases the mother survives. But in all cases the attackers are insane.
6. bewildered - September 21st, 2008 at 2:59 am
wouldnt women be the ones who understand the beauty of pregnancy and motherhood? I’d expect this heartless non-sense from my gender instead….wow women are nuts
7. still bewildered - September 21st, 2008 at 3:04 am
I blame jealousy for all of these. What else could be the reason behind such atrocities?
also havent they heard of the adoption agency? Instead of robbing a child of its parents, you are providing them with one……….all without the blood spilling, the prematurity and eventual death sentence. Its all win-win.
8. chan - September 21st, 2008 at 3:11 am
Please don’t publish such lists again..
9. jck1074 - September 21st, 2008 at 3:19 am
This is some of the sickest stuff I have ever seen. How do you do this to anyone, much less a person who is extrememly vulnerable. It’s like killing a child; and in some cases it is killing a child. I saw this once on the news and once on an episode of CSI, but i didn’t know that it would be that common, at least common enough to make a list about. Truly sick and disgusting.
10. Astrale - September 21st, 2008 at 3:19 am
This is sick.. I have to lie down for a minute.
@7
Pure jealousy wouldn’t be enough motivation for this kind of act. The women who committed these crimes must of suffered from some form of mental illness.
11. Toni_M - September 21st, 2008 at 3:33 am
man… sad..
and to kill the other children in the house as well…
12. jogiff - September 21st, 2008 at 3:38 am
Seriously, what the füç is wrong with these people? I really have a hard time wrapping my head around these crimes. I can understand most crimes. But WTF?
13. astraya - September 21st, 2008 at 4:02 am
Now that I have safely eaten my dinner, I can return to this list.
I repeat two comments I made about the kidnap and abuse list:
1) I simply cannot comprehend what goes on in the minds of these people.
2) Rushfan, something *funny* next time, please! PLEASE!!!!
My concern is that publicising these cases is going to push a woman who is borderline, over the border.
14. Twinkle - September 21st, 2008 at 4:20 am
anyone remember the story from the bible about the two women who just gave birth? at least it wasn’t gory.
15. Twinkle - September 21st, 2008 at 4:20 am
i meant the one with king Solomon…
16. Foxy - September 21st, 2008 at 4:27 am
It would have been interesting to note some history on these women (the murderers I mean). I’m guessing most of them had had unsuccessful attempts at having a baby or had lost their own children in some way.
These facts are disturbing nonetheless…
17. rshady - September 21st, 2008 at 5:08 am
I was literally speechless reading this, I didn’t even think such a crime could exist.
18. jackit - September 21st, 2008 at 5:16 am
I don’t normally say this on the internet, but WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE?
19. kat - September 21st, 2008 at 5:38 am
wow…. thats the hardest list ive had to read so far….
20. Ro - September 21st, 2008 at 5:45 am
This is shockingly sad. Didn’t these heinous offenders know that God is always watching?
21. Tim - September 21st, 2008 at 5:47 am
Reminds me of the movie “À l’intérieur”. A very messed up movie about said topic. It’s a sad world we live in.
22. evan - September 21st, 2008 at 5:50 am
I went to college in Kent, Ohio, which is the town next to Ravenna (no. 6). I used to babysit for a family in Michelle Bica’s old neighborhood. The husband still lives in the house where his wife buried the body. He’s a sherif or something, and recently ran for public office. Needless to say all of his wife’s doings were dragged up through the paper again. In a crime like this their are so many victims, but the one this list never touches on are the husbands of these women, whose lives are essentially ruined because of what their wives did.
23. McSquida - September 21st, 2008 at 5:54 am
jackit - You said it. If I ever have kids, I won’t be leaving my g/f (or wife as the case may be) by herself for more than 5 minutes while she’s pregnant. Bloody nutters.
24. inga - September 21st, 2008 at 6:51 am
1) Of course it is America.
2) It is spelled “Foetal”.
25. Sugarpie - September 21st, 2008 at 7:18 am
Did someone saw the french movie “A l’intérieur” god it’s the most disturbing movie I’ve ever seen http://french.imdb.com/title/tt0856288/
26. Metalwrath - September 21st, 2008 at 7:20 am
Wow.. thats horrible.
Reminds me of that documentary on penguins.. the March of the Emperors (or something), in which some females who haven’t managed to conceive steel the egg of another female to raise the infant as their own.
27. Ghidoran - September 21st, 2008 at 7:20 am
Sick(in a bad way).
28. segue - September 21st, 2008 at 7:21 am
rushfan, a terribly sad list. I knew about almost all of the cases.
These are the kinds of cases for which capital punishment was designed. Oh sure, I know the argument will be made that these women were mad, were psychopaths and therefore unable to tell right from wrong, and we can’t hold them to our level of behavior…BULL!
They all deserve to die, if they aren’t already dead.
It’s too damn bad capital punishment is so humane these days. Some people deserve a slow and exquisitely painful death. These people do.
29. Rosirob - September 21st, 2008 at 7:40 am
I really hope they all got what was coming to them, especially in the cases where it wasn’t mentioned what happened to the foetus-abducting crazy lady. Hopefully all prison or something?
Doesn’t it kinda make you feel sad for these women, who are clearly wired wrong? They want a baby so much they would do … that !?
Of course, for the victims … well I can’t even think how horrid it must be to here that, say, your pregnant sister’s body has been found, let alone with no child in it …
30. lotte - September 21st, 2008 at 7:41 am
These women are inhumane.
31. lotte - September 21st, 2008 at 7:45 am
And i havent even heard of such things before.
32. Joe - September 21st, 2008 at 7:49 am
America is like a giant video game in which some of the characters do horrendous things but you don’t know who they are until after they’ve done them. This game is too hard!
33. Rising Falls - September 21st, 2008 at 7:56 am
How can you only get 8 years for killing someone and stealing their baby?
34. Dani - September 21st, 2008 at 8:25 am
@chan
If you knew what this was about, why did you read it?
I found it quite an interesting read. I think I need to read up more on the subject though if there’s any further information as to motives or psychological explanations.
35. Miss Destiny - September 21st, 2008 at 8:43 am
inga said, “1) Of course it is America.”
There’s really no need for such a contemptuous comment. It’s likely that cases like this happen all over the world. To make such a statement is incredibly heartless, and makes light of the victims simply because of where they were born. Would this be more of a tragedy if they were from the Middle East, or Africa perhaps? No. It’s a tragedy no matter where it occurs.
Way to go Rushfan, as sad as it was to read it was still a good list! You obviously take a lot of care in researching your topics.
Lists aren’t all happiness and sunshine and unicorns pooping rainbows, you know.
36. heartshapedbox - September 21st, 2008 at 8:54 am
So fucked up.. It’s like a shitty storyline to a shitty soap opera. They should have all gotten the death penalty, right after getting a swift kick to the ovaries.
37. Phillies - September 21st, 2008 at 9:19 am
Oh my God…
I consider myself a creative-thinker, very imaginative. I also tend to view humanity relatively negatively (still keep a positive life attitude, regardless). In spite of all that, if I had a million years to think about it, I would have never thought people would do something like…THAT…to other people. Clearly, I am wrong
Again
38. Cat Skyfire - September 21st, 2008 at 9:38 am
Very interesting list. Unlike someone’s comment, women are not just ‘nuts’. This is, thankfully, fairly rare. I wonder if it’s a part of Munchausen. They love the attention that pregnancy brings people, but aren’t actually pregnant. It’s sad that the mothers died, but good that some of the children did.
39. Jackie - September 21st, 2008 at 9:45 am
I don’t know if anyone watches the show “Snapped” but there was one instance where a pregnant woman was attacked by someone who wanted to steal her baby but she actually got away and wound up killing her attacker in the brawl. The pregnant woman was contacted by the attacker who said that she believed she got gifts from the pregnant woman’s registry by accident because they had similar names. (The attacker who was faking a pregnancy would peruse baby shower registries and would then make up a name and use this story). So the attacker said “I think I got some gifts that were meant for you by accident”. They chatted on the phone and the pregnant mother came to the attacker’s address to receieve the gifts. The attacker then pulled out a knife and started to stab her. The pregnant mother obviously had no idea why this woman was attacking her and wound up killing the attacker and called 911. It wasn’t until the cops came and saw the surgical equipment lying on the floor belonging to the attacker, and also finding out that this woman was always lying about being pregnant, that the victim even knew why she was being attacked. Thank god she got away.
40. deepthinker - September 21st, 2008 at 9:46 am
There are some sick chicks in this world! The planning that goes into these crimes is just insane.
41. Cedestra - September 21st, 2008 at 9:53 am
24. inga: In the States we use “fetal”- it’s correct, like “theater” is correct vs. “theatre”.
This is a rushfan-caliber list. Well written, thought out, researched, but very grizzly. Rushfan uses these lists as a platform to teach people about the dirty underbelly of life. I don’t see too many other people submitting lists like this and I do believe that someone should do it. Thank you, rushfan- another good albeit sad list.
P.s. Good timing, Jamie, you didn’t put this one on Monday!
42. smurff - September 21st, 2008 at 9:59 am
I was lucky today being no. 4 on the list had to go out but Im back.
To chan no. 8 by making this site successful, you have to try and give the public as much info as possible about topics you either know about or dont know. Take lotte at no. 30 she has learned something today.
You cant go through life with blinkers on and only wish to see the good things - Im 100 % behind this list
43. Kim - September 21st, 2008 at 10:25 am
Interesting fact, homicide is the leading cause of death in pregnant women.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Legal.....amp;page=1
While this list is horrible to think about, it’s good for people to learn that it does happen.
44. MzFly - September 21st, 2008 at 10:57 am
How was #1 even allowed to happen. That crazy bitch only spent 8 years in jail for stealing a baby and plots to kill?
45. lady888 - September 21st, 2008 at 11:04 am
What I hate about this crime most of all is that as a possibly infertile woman, this gives the idea that we’re all crazy murderers. Please understand this is not an infertile woman’s crime. This is a mentally ill woman’s crime.
46. kat - September 21st, 2008 at 11:30 am
My God.
It’s even more horrifying if you read the list 11 days after giving birth.
47. Riya B. - September 21st, 2008 at 11:46 am
Oh God, I never would have thought that some women would go to the extremes to have children when they aren’t able to actually get pregnant. These women should deserve the death penalty for not only killing an expectant mother and thus severing the all-important bond between mother and child, but often killing the other children and sometimes the baby itself! This shit is too much to think of, it makes me sick. I think I should abstain from eating for a while…
48. jfrater - September 21st, 2008 at 11:47 am
kat: this is hardly a pleasant list to say it on - but congratulations! I hope you have recovered quickly from the birth
49. Carina - September 21st, 2008 at 11:58 am
I cannot believe, that these yankees are so horribly appalled by this? It’s nothing new, and surprise surprise some idiots haven’t heard about it before.
How can you call these women all those names? It is NOT they’re fault that they are literally insane. If you did a little research you’d know how many of them are considered clinically insane.
50. anon4290 - September 21st, 2008 at 12:20 pm
It is extremely disturbing that women committed all these horrific crimes. There is only one case in which a woman was assisted by others. There were points in reading this that I felt sick to my stomach. Before I read this I was thinking that men had committed these crimes. I was so shocked and disgusted to find out that women did these things. All those people who think that women are not capable of absolutely horrible things this proves other wise. I would call “Fetal Abduction” one of the most despicable act that can be preformed by humans. Sure there have been only ten recorded cases, but they get more and more frequent as the years pass. How many will there be in ten years? 100? 200?
51. Kate - September 21st, 2008 at 12:25 pm
I’ve never had such a hard time finishing a list before.
and Carina: how could ANYONE not be appalled by this? So what if it’s not new; it’s still horrifying.
52. ciunas - September 21st, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I wonder more & more about the propriety of publishing this sort of list here.
53. WinstonB - September 21st, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Maybe I’ve been a little to “desensitized” to violence but I don’t really find this to be all that appalling.
54. ElenaSFA - September 21st, 2008 at 1:11 pm
If I get pregnant, I’m putting it in a steel womb, and then when it’s born. I’m going to… I don’t know yet.
55. rushfan - September 21st, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Jackie ~ I saw that on TV somewhere, too. 26 year old Sarah Brady was contacted by Katie Smith claiming to by “Sarah Brody” saying she got gifts from Babies R Us meant for Sarah Brady. She actually went to Katie Smith’s house once and picked up a gift without incident. The second time, however, Smith attacked Brady and they fought for nearly 20 minutes before Brady wrestled the knife away from Smith and then stabbed her and ran for her life.
56. quiana - September 21st, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I live in st louis and couldn’t believe when I heard about #three on the list. the girl thought her friend was pregnant with her boyfriends baby that was supposidly why she did it. I think the whole city of st louis was praing that her other children would be found a live. I couldn’t belive it when they found the other children stuffed in a washing machine.
57. jfrater - September 21st, 2008 at 1:53 pm
ciunas: What is the problem with publishing this type of list? Should we not publish bad news? Surely it is not good to ignore the bad side of human nature.
58. Lammy85 - September 21st, 2008 at 2:22 pm
There are few worse things you can do than to attack and kill a pregnant woman, cut the baby out of her, and then kill the baby too. Granted, not all of the babies died on this list. But still…there are some sick people out there.
59. segue - September 21st, 2008 at 2:40 pm
#46. kat
My God.
It’s even more horrifying if you read the list 11 days after giving birth.
****
First, congratulations on your new child!
Second, I totally understand what you mean. When I had my children, I lived in San Francisco, CA., original home to Jim Jones and The Peoples Temple. Everyone in S.F. was familiar with the group and knew someone connected with it. After they fled to Central America, strange stories began to make the rounds.
29 days after giving birth to my third child, 909 people, the first one a newborn child killed by her mother, died in Jonestown.
I had nightmares for 5 years.
60. dischuker - September 21st, 2008 at 2:44 pm
uggh. God have mercy on our inability to love other people.
61. Arkz_Archduke_of_Geeks - September 21st, 2008 at 3:14 pm
wow i actully read about the fresno one, [[i am from there and still live and work there]] and its amazing what some people do
62. MartinL - September 21st, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I agree that these women must have been insane, or had something seriously lacking in their inner makeup — especially the St. Louis girl who perpetrated her crime because she thought her friend was carrying her boyfriend’s baby. (Per Quiana at #56.) There are so many cultural perceptions, carried on especially in immigrant and disadvantaged communities in this country, that the woman who cannot bear a child is nothing. The pressure to become a mother in such communities could be enough to override a woman’s moral sense. Then there’s the aspect of Munchausen syndrome in which the sufferer craves the attention of a patient: I believe there’s a certain variant of Munchausen’s, in which the woman craves the attention and love shown a new mother with a baby.
I know I’m sounding clinically detached, when I’m not even a clinician. I suppose I feel the need to anatomize such crimes, understand what could make a person do such a thing. I don’t feel any desire to demonize these women, but I’m not exactly trying to empathize with them, either. There’s no such thing as an act too heinous to be committed by a human. There comes a point where moralizing is pointless; it would be better to try to understand the psychological mechanism of such actions, and try to change what is in these women’s environments motivating them. Because these things aren’t going to stop happening. With ongoing increased population and the stresses it generates, you can expect more. I think we live in a world that generates insanity.
On the other hand, I think this was a very good list. Sometimes we need to look at the dark side of human existence; it makes the bright side look that much brighter. If you think these women are evil soulless monsters, think of the people you know who are the exact opposite. Then say a prayer for these women, and be thankful you’re not one of them. What would it be like for one of these women to gain a measure of sanity and conscience, and realize the true nature of what she’d done?
63. dischuker - September 21st, 2008 at 3:32 pm
with the long history of humans acting like monsters towards each other, why is the most popular explanation for this sort of atrocity that these women were insane?
is it too difficult to think that some people just think this type of behavior is acceptable for their purposes? (i.e. the ends justify the means)
64. malfore - September 21st, 2008 at 3:47 pm
*sigh* The women who commit these acts are not usually evil…they are just sick and they cannot have children of their own….I knew a woman who was considering doing such a thing (out of concern I had her committed to the state mental institution). She was a nice, pleasant woman, who had no ill will in her heart, but when she found out she was unable to have children, something in her snapped. Unfortunatly she commited suicide soon after being released.
With having been said, the women who actually go through with it are completely out of touch with reality, or just plain evil.
65. Brans - September 21st, 2008 at 3:52 pm
I agree you you dischuker. Insanity is a lame excuse.
And assuming monsterous behaviour is unique to any single group or gender is incredibly naive. I’m more amazed that people tend to prefer pretending that this stuff doesn’t happen instead of facing it and doing something about it.
Great job, rushfan!
66. RCYO - September 21st, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Jesus I’m sick of you fucking morons goin around sayin that people are monsters and all act same way. These women are mentally messed up. They are not normal people. Only a small percentage of people have dane stuff like this. I’m not saying that stuff like this doesnt happen often, just that not a lot of people do it. The good of people greatly outweigh the bad. Just open youre eyes and see that your a human also before you go around babbling like an idiot.
67. Spinner - September 21st, 2008 at 5:00 pm
#63 I agree with you totally. As ’sick’ as this entire list is, the women that did the crimes are not necessarily insane ( although some clearly are, as is noted within the list ) . Some people are just bad and incredibly self serving.
68. astraya - September 21st, 2008 at 5:34 pm
They’re going to make a movie about this. They’re going to call it “Foetal Attraction”!
Bad taste. Sorry. I also know a joke about paedophiles. Do you want to hear that?
69. Mark - September 21st, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Oh my God…
This is fucking disturbing.
I’m disturbed for the rest of my life.
70. Lauren - September 21st, 2008 at 5:49 pm
It’s stories like these that had me paranoid around the time I was pregnant with my now 2 year old daughter. #4 was especially disturbing, since it was around that time that I got pregnant.
Here I am, pregnant again, and terrified to walk to my car after work for fear that someone will want my baby. It’s a sick world we live in.
71. enxchanted - September 21st, 2008 at 5:55 pm
I was only 8 or 9 at the time but I live in Fresno, Ca. and I remember that case. I remember my mother being completely horrified
72. goof_ball - September 21st, 2008 at 6:07 pm
thats really sad =’(
73. cicero - September 21st, 2008 at 6:26 pm
What gets me are these people trying to defend these women by saying they are insane and trying to make us feel bad for considering them monsters. Even if they were all insane it still does not justify what they did or make them any less guilty. They still deserve to be punished for their crimes. Of course in this country if you are declared insane you just get put in a minimum security mental hospital ’til they consider you un-fucked up.
74. MT - September 21st, 2008 at 6:54 pm
63.Dischuker
67.Spinner
73.Cicero
Unless people do this just for profit (such as selling babies on the black market) then they are insane. Even if they are not legally insane they are still out of touch with reality. The reason insanity needs to be addressed is not so we can justify their crimes, it’s so we can identify the real root cause and try to create a profile and prevent it from happening in the future. Which would you prefer, we build more jails and execution chambers to punish the guility after the crime, or try to prevent the brutal, horrific act from being committed in the first place?
75. Vera Lynn - September 21st, 2008 at 7:03 pm
rushfan: I knew this was yours. It carries your “scent.” Wrong word but right association. I don’t mean this in a bad way. It just has your fingerprint on it. I think it was Astraya who said it first.
#10 A car key? Blows my mind. Ive been around and have heard of most of these. But a CAR KEY???
76. cugirl - September 21st, 2008 at 7:55 pm
I knew Bobbie Jo Stinnett - she and my sister were friends. She and her husband were so excited…how could anyone do that to another person? How do you tell a child that they came into the world in such a way? Terrible, absolutely horrible.
77. esa - September 21st, 2008 at 9:04 pm
I’m going into hiding when I’m pregnant.
78. Perx - September 21st, 2008 at 9:23 pm
I didn’t even know such things happened… sick!
79. bigski - September 21st, 2008 at 9:32 pm
How nice.What a upper
80. sheltiesan - September 21st, 2008 at 9:37 pm
They were maniacally insane monsters. So are serial killers. Maybe they should have all walked free in hopes that they will miraculously provide us with the information in order to prevent future occurrences. It’s like an oxymoron. By the time they get it “figured out” if ever, there are too many innocent, sane lives lost.
81. Skatterbrain - September 21st, 2008 at 9:58 pm
@ sheltiesan:
There is no difference between these women and serial killers. If the cops turned ‘em out, they’d do it again in heartbeat. There is no getting through to people like these women, though I am not keen on refering to these demons as members of my gender. The only thing to do with monsters like these is shoot them, or preferably do the same thing they did to these innocent, mostly young mothers. But very slowly, Freddy Kruger style. Skinning the cat, I think the term is called.
82. jhoyce07 - September 21st, 2008 at 10:17 pm
such horrible,horrible acts..go to hell demons..tsk tsk..
83. Meg - September 22nd, 2008 at 12:45 am
I think what’s most disturbing is there were 3 recorded incidents this year.
84. Carina - September 22nd, 2008 at 2:34 am
I think most people simply do not understand how insane people differ from us. They do not THINK the same way we do. They can’t. Much like a normal person couldn’t understand someone who ripped out a baby with a car key from someones womb. Their personal thoughts and reasonings aren’t in the limits we can understand. Their mind is too much different.
And yes, I do have personal experience. My boyfriend is a practising psychiatrist at an asylum and her sister has schizophrenia. She has absolutely no sense of reality, she lives in her own little world, where everything the voices tell her has to be done. She doesn’t think stealing is wrong etc. Morals are something most insane people don’t understand and in some cases feel like they are above them. You don’t have to emphasize with these people, but from a clinical point of view, try to understand these people.
MartinL- Thank you, you saved me a lot of writing. I completely agree with you.
85. Carina - September 22nd, 2008 at 2:52 am
One more thing I’d like to add, this isn’t a propaganda site on the world! Why only write about funny and happy things, when in fact there’s so much more going on in this world besides unicorns prancing around peeing rainbows?! Please keep writing even about things like this, it’s good for everyone’s common knowledge.
If you don’t like this, go live in the mountains as a hermit and create your own little world with nothing but happiness in it. And until you do that, try to deal with the world you actually live in.
86. Carina - September 22nd, 2008 at 2:55 am
Oops, a few grammar errors but deal with it
87. littlemissrock - September 22nd, 2008 at 6:20 am
This must be some sort of mental illness.
88. kunle - September 22nd, 2008 at 6:39 am
Another Morbid list Rushfan, why am i not suprised
89. kunle - September 22nd, 2008 at 7:00 am
Thanx again Rushfan for another “Back 2 Reality List” love all ur lists
90. Callie - September 22nd, 2008 at 7:00 am
Vera Lynn (75)
I agree..I read through this whole list thinking “oh my god a car key?” That’s the most awful thing I’ve heard in awhile.
I’m also shocked at how many women killed the pregnant women for their babies, but then killed the other children as well. That’s terrbile.
On the other hand, I’m glad most of the babies survived and were brought back to their families. Good list Rush! Really makes you think..
91. Jackie - September 22nd, 2008 at 7:44 am
rushfan @55: Yes that’s the story I was talking about!
92. Brickhouse - September 22nd, 2008 at 8:54 am
Nice but nasty list. It makes me want to cry a bit for the families of those women that were murdered. I really think it’s one of the lowest crime to murder a pregnant woman. And that one who killed the woman and her three children?
Seriously… I’m numb from this. Nice job.
93. A - September 22nd, 2008 at 9:14 am
Impressive. It’s weird to think that that happened just this past year.
94. Hillery - September 22nd, 2008 at 9:50 am
#3 sounds like the worst one to me, though they are all terrible. I can’t understand what these women are thinking… aside from the incredible violence necessary, exactly how stupid are they thinking they can pass the baby off as their own? I lived next door to a woman who stole a baby from a hospital. Her boyfriend called the police on her. Seeing it happen so close made me terrified when I got pregnant. It seems strange to me that these women, so unstable, still think they can take care of a child, when they obviously don’t have enough respect for human life not to take it. Very interesting- and upsetting- list.
95. Cedestra - September 22nd, 2008 at 10:05 am
Calina and MartinL: I have to wonder sometimes at the validity of people claiming to be insane vs. those that really are. Sure, every single woman on this list could be insane, but I’m still going to call them a monster. John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, and Ed Gein killed many people. Monsters. Jeffrey Dahmer killed people and ate them. Monster. These women prayed on other women at one of the most fragile times in their lives, killing them, sometimes others, and even the baby. Monsters. Most or all of these people have some sort of sickness. Calling them “mentally ill” does not give them a license to do these things. People have impulses all the time to do “wrong” things- they can deny them or seek help. These people went ahead and did it. They have removed themselves from humanity and deserve all the ridicule, guilt, hatred, and ostracization they get.
96. Cedestra - September 22nd, 2008 at 10:08 am
#5 makes the least sense to me. If you were going to stalk someone, wouldn’t you prepare yourself with some knowledge of pregnancy? Six month old babies rarely survive- why wouldn’t she have waited until at least the third trimester? Sounds like a burglar robbing a store during the day…
97. Carina - September 22nd, 2008 at 11:34 am
Cedestra, #5 isn’t supposed to make sense to you. Would an intelligent and sane person do that? Like said before, rational thinking is not something these people do.
98. Mary - September 22nd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
I for one am appreciative of lists like these. Not only does it inform us of hideous crimes, it makes us aware of crimes that we may not even think are utterly possible and could never happen. Well they do. Yes, they may be rare but wouldn’t you rather be informed and take precautions if you were pregnant than be totally oblivious to such crimes. I for one wouldn’t go anywhere without my Husband when I was pregnant, not even to the doctors office. It’s a shame that we have to have this in the back of our minds during such a joyous occasion. Before they upped security in the nurseries you heard of babies being stolen from the hospitals quite a lot. Now that this is nearly impossible I believe that these horrendous acts on pregnant women will probably become more prevalent. I only hope that I am wrong.
99. dischuker - September 22nd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
i am surprised that no one has commented on this yet but…
if a baby is violently taken from the womb by a woman wanting to steal the child we are all appalled
if a baby is violently taken from the womb by a doctor because the mother doesn’t want it anymore we celebrate our ability to “choose”
why the difference?
100. Spinner - September 22nd, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Dischuker: There is a mountain of debate as to whether an 8-12 week old fetus is classed as a baby. The babies in these examples are almost always ‘technically’ full term.
Also, the outcome of a medical termination of pregnancy almost never results in the death of the mother, unlike these examples.
101. dischuker - September 22nd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
would it be any less appalling if the fetuses in question were 8-12 weeks old?
but just to avoid red herrings, throw out the debatable ones. let’s apply the question to late term abortions.
102. Carina - September 22nd, 2008 at 2:35 pm
dischuker is just being an idiot. The abortion has to be done before pregnancy week 20, which is the last legal limit for it atleast in my country. A baby born on week 20, cannot survive outside the womb even in the hospital, under any circumstance. I don’t consider something that can’t support itself outside a mother a person yet.
And dischuker, I believe you’re a man, so this quote makes no sense:”we celebrate our ability to “choose””
If you are indeed a man, YOU don’t have and will never have the right to choose.
103. dischuker - September 22nd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
carina: i’m not just bringing this up to get a rise out of people. i’m just asking you to apply the same logic.
if the women being attacked in these examples were less than 20 weeks pregnant, would it be just as sickening?
i’m using “we” in the sense of humans.
104. lizze - September 22nd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
any murder is appalling but i doubt that women who are after babies would go after women who are hardly pregnant. Still, wouldn’t having a underdevolped fetus cut out of a stomach to be someones child pretty awful? In that case the baby would die for sure.
I think its pretty strange how some people are trying to defend these women by calling them insane and saying we should study them. They planned and carried out a complicated and grizzly crime. Maybe they are selfish and evil and a bit out of touch with humanity but they are not legally insane. Just cruel.
105. Spinner - September 22nd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Dischuker: imho the brutal murder is a very significant issue, so in that case it does not make a difference how old the fetus/baby is. At any time ( pregnant or not ) the violent slaying of another person is sickening.
If the woman was less than 20 weeks it would be just as sickening because a) she would still die and b) there is zero chance of survival for the fetus/baby.
106. Anne O’Nemus - September 22nd, 2008 at 7:54 pm
But remember: men are hardly ever affected to the same extent by hormones as women are. (Not that I say what these women did was justifiable, in case anyone puffs up at the first sentence.) So, these hormones are the cause of extreme mental states, more extreme than many can imagine, even most women. The reason I plead this fact? I had extremely severe postpartum depression and psychosis, and I was not myself. I had thought that I was one of the most rational beings I know (as I am) but the insane combination of hormones (essentially, mind-altering drugs) makes you literally, another person. Your mind follows different processes, you see things differently, etc. But what do most mind-altering drugs do anyway? They increase serotonin and other “happy chemicals” in your brain. These same chemicals fluctuate during pregnancy and after; imagine it as a drug that doesn’t wear off, a drug you have to take other (legal) drugs to get rid of its effects. Makes you think.
But the implications are enormous. If your hormones are altering your mind, and you are literally a different person, then in the court of law can you be charged for substance abuse, if you knew about these fluctuations of mind-altering chemicals and did not seek help? It is essentially the same thing, but one wears off after a few hours, and the other is perpetrated on you by your own body.
So many people throughout history have exhibited signs of mental imbalance. Michaelangelo reportedly ignored the pope (the political as well as religious dominant of the time), Da Vinci could never finish anything and began and abandoned a dozen projects at once (both of these are signs of ADHD). The pre-eminent Medieval composer and writer Hildegarde von Bingen suffered from intense mental and physical pain that resulted in religious hallucinations, now diagnosed by modern clinicians as untreated migraines, and Beethoven in his despair at going blind and deaf went insane, and wrote some of the most moving and innovative (even today) of the world’s music.
These people would have been treated with psychiatric medications today, and in all likelihood their singular vision and focus, as well as the religious convictions and agonies that drove them, which resulted in their great works, might not have been created.
So, where do we draw the line between these issues? Does one Fifth Symphony or Ordo Virtutum balance out two fetal abductions? Five? How many atrocities perpetrated by insanity does the Mona Lisa or the Sistine Chapel negate? Should we enforce mental stability at the cost of it’s benefits, if only to prevent the negatives, and thus have no positives or negatives?
Forgive the digression.
107. jj - September 23rd, 2008 at 1:23 am
Re:
But remember: men are hardly ever affected to the same extent by hormones as women are
Incorrect. There are differences, and different effects in different areas. But no gender is “more affected” than another.
Mental stability is societally determined; no zero sum, and no absolute values. The early versions of the DSM nearly included PMS as a form of temporary insanity.
The line is very easily drawn. Not to say that it is right, but if the act violates the laws of said society (ie, fetal cuttings illegal, writing a symphony while dealing with blindness not illegal)than the person has crossed the line.
108. Vallen - September 23rd, 2008 at 8:29 am
While this is horrible its been happening throughout history in the entire animal kingdom. This is not restricted to modern man/woman. Many animals do this and I’m sure humans have as far back as cavemen/women and beyond. The difference now is our intelligence tells us this is an awful and unforgivable act. I don’t know if there will ever be a way to completely prevent things of this nature because it is nature. We would like to be able to rid ourselves of all of our undesirable basic instincts, but its not something that will happen within a few hundred years(news being widespread isn’t that old and is the driving force behind this type of change IMO).
109. thuss - September 23rd, 2008 at 8:35 am
it will be better if this list had some oicture on it!
IT WOULD OF BEEN BETTER IF THIS LIST HAD SOME PICTURES IN IT!
110. Vallen - September 23rd, 2008 at 8:36 am
I also didn’t intend to suggest we are all capable of this. Those that do this sort of thing are wired differently in my opinion. We may never know how to fix that type of thing.
111. Iain - September 23rd, 2008 at 9:08 am
I think this is more about social stresses and the ‘fractures’ that result when the pressure is too much - rather than pure mental illness or plain old evil. Socially we accord motherhood with status and identity. An inability to achieve or loss of this evidently can lead to extreme behaviour in a tiny minority.
Vallen’s point about animal behaviour seems valid. You do get baby stealing amongst apes and monkeys. Given that many of these cases features older women victimising younger (thus lower status, less deserving) women, sounds kind of like aberrant monkey behaviour to me.
Similarly, as Vallen says, we’ve also had baby stealing as a more usual expression of this kind of aberration. These are the same pressures that make a woman snatch a newborn from a maternity ward.
Part of the uniqueness of these particular cases appears to be the restriction to the USA. An interesting question is if this merely shows the limits of Rushfan’s research, or if it’s a particularly American response to these pressures, solving overwhelming problems with an act of (seemingly) decisive violence.
112. Anne O’Nemus - September 23rd, 2008 at 9:17 am
jj:
Wrong assumption. I suppose men are as awash with hormones as pregnant women? Gain fifty pounds? Grow large breasts? Women ARE more affected by hormones, even the hormones every month prior to menopause, that cause the shedding of the uterine lining. (Many women I know have to take medications to regulate this monthly process, being afflicted with bowel obstructions, blinding migraines, weight gain of ten pounds or more, sleep 15 hours a day because of overwhelming fatigue, or faint?) I think that you sir, are a man and have never thought much on the natural disadvantage of women.
113. Anne O’Nemus - September 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 am
jj:
another note: violates the rules of the society??? Are you kidding? What about the societies that outlaw women and men who are not related speaking with each other, on pain of death, or women during the Middle Ages who exhibited interest in science, these were considered to have “unsexed” themselves and thus mentally unstable.
All because they broke the rules of “said society.” You must be insane yourself if you do not think that society can be the evil force, and not following along slavishly (as you suggest) will result in imprisonment, or simply, others finding you to be insane.
114. segue - September 23rd, 2008 at 9:51 am
106. Anne O’Nemus…So, where do we draw the line between these issues? Does one Fifth Symphony or Ordo Virtutum balance out two fetal abductions? Five? How many atrocities perpetrated by insanity does the Mona Lisa or the Sistine Chapel negate? Should we enforce mental stability at the cost of it’s benefits, if only to prevent the negatives, and thus have no positives or negatives?
****
Violent death is always a negative.
If, by enforcing mental stability (an impossibility anyway), we lose a “Mona Lisa” or a “Sistine Chapel” ceiling we never know it, therefore we lose nothing.
But say we could, in some of the cases above. What do we gain?
Lives. Lives that otherwise would have been horribly, terribly taken.
Can any *thing* take the place of that?
If, for you, the answer is “yes”, I suggest you take a very, very hard look at your priorities.
115. rushfan - September 23rd, 2008 at 10:21 am
Iain ~ I only knew of cases in the US when I began this list, but in researching it, I did not come across any cases outside of the US.
116. Koneko - September 23rd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
I read about this kind of thing happening over here in England. There was a case where a woman faked pregnancy using a fake name to befriend a pregnant woman. Eventually the pregnant woman found out about the faker and tried to escape, but the fake attacked her with a knife. The pregnant woman managed to turn the knife on the faker, who died. Mother and child are now both safe.
117. Anne O’Nemus - September 23rd, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Segue:
I hope no one read my lengthy comment as an advocation for allowing violent murder in the (faint) hopes of another great work of art…
How would a life have been terribly taken if Da Vinci took some Adderall or Ritalin?? I’m confused.
118. segue - September 23rd, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Anne, it was your phrasing that was confusing: “So, where do we draw the line between these issues? Does one Fifth Symphony or Ordo Virtutum balance out two fetal abductions? Five? How many atrocities perpetrated by insanity does the Mona Lisa or the Sistine Chapel negate? Should we enforce mental stability at the cost of it’s benefits, if only to prevent the negatives, and thus have no positives or negatives?”
Read that paragraph on it’s own. It sounds pretty atrocious.
I see by your last sentence that your meaning was something entirely different, was about taking drugs to control behavior.
Yet what you said was “Does one Fifth Symphony or Ordo Virtutum balance out two fetal abductions? Five? How many atrocities perpetrated by insanity does the Mona Lisa or the Sistine Chapel negate?”
That is confusing.
And under *any* conditions, if DaVinci took Adderall or Ritalin and the drugs dampened his creative juices enough so that the Mona Lisa or the Sistine Chapel were never painted, we’d never know because they wouldn’t have been in our experience, our future.
Tell me this. How many aborted fetuses would have grown up to be the next Da Vinci or Mahler? We’ll never know. We can’t know a future that doesn’t exist. That can’t exist.
What I *DO* know is that no number of artistic creations, no matter their beauty, negates even ONE of the atrocities on the list, nor any of the atrocities *NOT* on the list.
I completely agree with you about the effects of migraine, for example. Both my youngest daughter and I suffered from the most horrendous migraines, including hallucinations both visual and auditory. She now has drugs that control hers, mine stopped when I had to have a hysterectomy.
I did not suffer postpartum depression, but had friends who did. It was dreadful. They might as well have been different people for several weeks.
I am suffering from two rare diseases. One is unspeakably painful, and I am on doses of drugs which would kill most people. The other could kill me in my sleep any time.
You’d think I’d be depressed, wouldn’t you? I’m not.
Everybody is different, Anne. Everybody reacts differently to situations, even really, really bad ones or really, really good ones. We are each the architect of our own destiny. We deal or give in. Sometimes, like with postpartum depression, it’s almost impossible to fight. That’s when you get help, and be proud of getting help. But don’t equate getting help with stifling creativity. Getting help opens up your life, it doesn’t close it down.
119. brook - September 23rd, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Example #1 shows why the death penalty is necessary under certain circumstances. Otherwise, this criminal will go to jail, serve another 8 years, be released, kill a third woman to steal another baby, then go to jail for another 8 years, etc. and the cycle never ends as long as this criminal lives. It’s very unfair to all the victims, past or future.
120. segue - September 23rd, 2008 at 6:50 pm
119. brook
Although, as a general rule, I am not a great fan of capital punishment, I have to agree with you.
There are crimes which demand the death penalty, and these do. In crimes of such atrocity, with obvious planning before hand and cruelty beyond comprehension to most minds, the death penalty is the only answer.
No one can convince me that these women are not guilty due to mental disease or defect. They were sufficiently sane to plan and carry out the crime. That makes them guilty.
121. ligeia - September 24th, 2008 at 2:49 am
Where to start? I’ve read most of the comments (sorry some were too long for my attention span!!) About case no. 1 - the woman she was in jail for stabbing didn’t die (fortunately) which is why she was only in jail for 8 years. It’s fairly clear that all these women are mentally unbalanced, because there is no way that a sane person could ever think this is ok. I’m not using this as an excuse for the crimes they committed or as a way to justify it. But I don’t think it’s right to execute a mentally ill person for a crime no matter how horrible. I remember once seeing a programme about it and they spoke to a man who was mentally ill and on death row for the rape and murder of a 4 year old child. Instead of thinking about ways in which we can punish these people (not just these women but any mentally ill person who commits a crime) we should be trying to find ways to prevent these kinds of things happening in the future. Of course, there are times when a person (mentally ill or otherwise) will show no signs of any intentions to commit crimes. I have to wonder if Andrea Curry-Demus was psychiatrically evaluated before she left prison, considering how soon after being freed she committed her crime.
122. MT - September 24th, 2008 at 5:09 am
.121 ligeia
You are right on with your viewpoints. And you are also right not to be bothered with reading some of those comments which are too long and boring to read anyway. Speaking of which…
.118/120 Segue
Make up your mind, you are either for or against the death penalty. If it’s ok with you to execute a person for one crime then you are for it…period.
As far as mental illness is concerned, you are clueless about what you speak of.
123. Cedestra - September 24th, 2008 at 5:36 am
Carina: Yes, none of them make sense to me. It’s horrid. However, logically speaking, if you wanted to succeed in this crime, you would think you’d wait a little longer so the baby had hopes of survival. All the other women, albeit unstable, managed to think logically enough to realize that the chances of survival for the baby would be higher if they waited until at least the third trimester.
Dishuker: Don’t be silly. You’re feelings on abortion can’t compare in this list. You’re talking about aborting a fetus by a consenting adult through a doctor vs. double-homicide. Let’s say a 6 week old fetus could be removed from a woman without killing her- I say it’s still theft and damage.
Vallen: Could you cite sources? I’ve never heard of fetal abduction occurring in the animal kingdom or historically. More a curiosity than trying to negate your argument.
124. Iain - September 24th, 2008 at 6:00 am
Cedestra - I’m pretty sure that Vallen probably overstated his/her point. I’ve also never heard of fetal abduction outside these listed cases, but there are plenty of instances of baby stealing, baby killing, mother attacks etc by all sorts of apes and monkeys (including us).
125. ligeia - September 24th, 2008 at 8:12 am
MT - thanks for your support, a lot of people wouldn’t agree with me. Some people believe that in certain cases, the offender should be executed no matter what their mental state is. As I live in a country where there is no death penalty (Ireland) and the length of sentences for serious crimes, such as murder and rape, are, to be quiet honest, a joke. You can kill someone here and be out of jail within two years. That’s if you even get convicted in the first place. The justice system here is terrible and I hope that neither I or anyone I know is ever the victim of aserious crime. At least these women will be locked away from society for (hopefully) a very long time. Unfortunately though I doubt they will receive the psychiatric treatment they so obviously need.
126. Anne O’Nemus - September 24th, 2008 at 8:16 am
segue:
I like your encouraging talk i.e. we are all the architects of our own destinies, but frankly put sometimes mental illness is stronger than willpower. I do not intimate that getting help equals stifling creativity, but you must admit some greats would not have done some of their deeds if under psychiatric medications.
As for the balancing out bit, what great works are balanced out by atrocities, the question I probably meant to pose is should we give everyone mood-equalizing drugs, even if they don’t want it, to avoid atrocities, even if it is against their will and their creativity has been stifled. (sorry, wrote that bit a long time ago and now I’m wondering what I meant too) so I guess it’s a free will vs. the communal good… I’m pretty sure it’s somewhere along those lines.
127. segue - September 24th, 2008 at 8:17 am
122. MT
120 Segue
Make up your mind, you are either for or against the death penalty. If it’s ok with you to execute a person for one crime then you are for it…period.
As far as mental illness is concerned, you are clueless about what you speak of.
****
Ever hear of extenuating circumstances?
My guess would be no, because otherwise you would understand the ability to be against the death penalty *in general* but for it in particular cases.
As to my understanding of mental illness: I know whereof I speak. I studied it for many years. I still study mental illness.
Never end a sentence with a preposition.
128. MT - September 24th, 2008 at 8:45 am
.127 seque
You need to watch more court TV. Extenuating circumstances can be considered during the sentencing phase but not if the defendant is declared legally insane. In other words, regardless of the brutality of the crime if a person was legally considered insane at the time it was committed then the sentence would be the same. This has nothing to do with being for or against the dealth penalty. Either you agree people should be legally killed by the state as revenge for them killing someone else, or you don’t agree. There is nothing “general” about it.
And although you have “studied” mental illness for years I have lived with it for years. So who do you think is more of an expert on the subject?
Never end a sentence sounding stupid.
129. segue - September 24th, 2008 at 9:11 am
126. Anne O’Nemus…the question I probably meant to pose is should we give everyone mood-equalizing drugs, even if they don’t want it, to avoid atrocities, even if it is against their will and their creativity has been stifled…
****
Got it, Anne. Now that I understand your original post, it makes sense.
I think the *ONLY* time anyone should be given any mood altering drug against their will would be if they were an obvious and immediate danger to others. Period.
And you are right, sometimes mental illness is *far* stronger than will power. I meant, and was obviously not sufficiently clear, mental doldrums, the “blues”, the sort of depression which one allows, rather than the sort which is entirely chemically based. I’m sure you know women (don’t we all?), who go about their lives as if just waiting for the next bad thing to happen, yet, in truth, their lives are just fine but for their attitude?
I had a friend, whom I had to eventually wean, who was like that. She got so bad she couldn’t even hold a job and would spend days in her dark apartment huddled on a bare mattress (according to her), yet Psychiatrist after Psychiatrist, Psychologist after Psychologist pronounced her attention seeking, not chemically unbalanced, and the Psych’s would not prescribe drugs.
She knew I was on schedule 3 drugs and would call repeatedly, asking for some, knowing I had to refuse, knowing they weren’t any good for mood altering anyway.
She was a master manipulator, but not depressed, not bi-polar, not mentally ill. She just loved to see how many people she could jerk around.
She was not a danger to anyone, though her behavior was obviously strange, and *NOT* giving her mind altering drugs was the kindness here, rather than the giving of them, which was her objective.
She could have brought herself out of that mindset if she wanted to, but as long as she stayed there she got the attention she craved. If she brought herself out of it, she might have to actually perform, to write a third novel, get her recognition that way, but she had made the objective to difficult.
On purpose.
Better to not try, and thus not chance failing, than do, and possibly fail, but also possibly achieve (as she had already done twice).
Would mood altering drugs have allowed her to write the Great American Novel?
Probably not.
She’d already decided she couldn’t do it, although, in fact, she could.
Her mind said NO, and it said NO without the need for drugs.
God, by now I’m so off topic I’ll have to make a jarring return.
As I now understand you, Anne, we agree.
And congratulations on the new little one.
130. segue - September 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am
128. MT
127 seque
You need to watch more court TV.
****
I’m sorry, MT, but I don’t have time waste, sitting around watching television.
131. Cheez-It - September 24th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Reading this while 8 months pregnant was not a good idea…
132. Spinner - September 24th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
MT. I live with cancer. Am I, therefore, an expert?
133. MT - September 24th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
.132 Spinner
Is that a rhetorical question?
From the standpoint you can speak about the pain, treatment and results and how it affected your life and your decisions about work,family, love,etc, that should make you an expert more so than someone that has just read about or studied it.
134. Spinner - September 24th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
In a nutshell, I would rather have treatment provided by people who have studied it. That is , the professionals.
A lot of knowledge is gained by seeing the same illnesses in different people, reading vast quantities of academic and autobiographical literature and working with everyone concerned. Generally the person experiencing the illness doesnt have all that experience and information. They are usually limited to the level of their own inderstanding/denial/anger/ etc etc etc.
There are not many health professionals out there who are not touched by both mental illness or cancer in their lives. So the level of understanding is high in lots of them.
I do mean study as in a professional capacity though, not just someone who finds it all a bit interesting and thinks theyre an expert.
135. segue - September 24th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
131. Cheez-It, I understand the feeling, but at least this way you can visualize ways to protect yourself. You can plan.
That gives you both power and control. Also, it reminds you not to take silly chances.
Congratulations. Have a happy, healthy, baby, and an easy birth.
136. david in london - September 24th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
What a tragic list.
Although none of the mothers survived, I find it astonishing that some of the babies survived such a traumatic arrival. I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that in one such case the mother actually survived.
If a director decided to make a film along these lines it would be dismissed as sick. Sadly the real world is sicker.
137. Jenna_Bug - September 24th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
I knew it!
Number 1. Wilkinsburg is about 20 minutes from my house…NOT a good neighborhood…This was all over the local news. Happened just a few months ago. I knew when I was reading this list that it would be on it.
First and foremost people that are this sick and evil deserved to be tortured, over and over again. I can’t believe it happened to close to where I live.
I remember watching the live news broadcast and they panned the camera up to the woman’s apartment windows. All over the glass of the windows were flies. That was before they found and recovered the body of the mother.
I have seen some of the other cases on this list on tv.
It’s so sad. Creating a life is one of the most amazing, beautiful things a woman will go through. It’s so unbelievably sad that these women died horrible deaths because these sick bitches wanted their babies. I hope God punishes them and they all rot in hell.
138. Anne O’Nemus - September 25th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Segue,
unfortunately I lost the child. But thank you anyways.
139. segue - September 25th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Anne, there is nothing I can say to make you feel better, but as a woman, I understand your loss and cry for you.
140. Vera Lynn - September 25th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
So sick. So sad. Heartbreaking. I would never recover if that happened to me and I survived. I know the mothers didn’t live. Maybe they were spared a lifetime of sadness and despair.
141. Vera Lynn - September 25th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
vallen (108) Humans don’t have instincts. Only drives.
142. mysteryman - November 12th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Strange that all these cases are in the US
143. Angelina - November 12th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
What’s strange about it, mysteryman?
144. mysteryman - November 12th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
well, how come there are no cases of this type of crime in other countries. are only americans sick enough to steal fetuses?
145. Angelina - November 13th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Yes, only Americans are sick and disturbed enough to do this. And there is no violent crime anywhere else in the world, right? I know what you meant with your first comment. But the US does not have the monopoly on sick, horrific crime. It just gets sensationalized here more often than other places.
146. astraya - November 15th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Currently there is a drama series screening in Korea called East of Eden. In the first episode, set in 1961, a small-town nurse is pregnant to the local mine owner/kingpin. She is abducted by his henchmen, then a surgical procedure is shown. At that stage it’s pretty ambiguous, but she later confronts hims and says something like “You pulled a living fetus from me and killed him”. (He didn’t; he paid the doctor to.)
So here’s a new twist: fetal abduction and murder by the father. At least he left the woman alive.
I don’t know if this is based on a real event. If it is, it by far predates anything in this list. Presumably it is plausible enough for the scriptwriters to use in the story.
(She gets her revenge. She switches the newborn babies of the mine owner and his wife, and his sworn enemy, the mine union leader, and his wife. This has repercussions that last throughout the series.)