Your View: Does God Exist?
Published on March 1, 2008 - 1146 Comments
We have had many lists that deal with religious topics, and many of our readers have made some amazing intelligent comments. But we have not actually gotten down to the root of things - which is, does God truly exist, and if He does, is there proof for His existence? Remember, keep the comments friendly and use good arguments for your view.
Does God Exist and Can We Prove It Either Way?
My answer is that St Thomas Aquinas gave some very convincing arguments in support of the idea that reason can prove faith. I believe that a greater study of his works, with some of the more modern writers will help each person to draw the appropriate conclusions- but we should give equal time to both sides.
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1. Mandie - March 1st, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Oh dear lord, this is going to get heated.
And yes.
2. Otter - March 1st, 2008 at 3:03 pm
This will be an interesting one.
And no, I lost my faith long ago.
3. Lewis - March 1st, 2008 at 3:06 pm
3rd
4. danielle - March 1st, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Perhaps for some…
but not for me, I am not really a religious person.
5. Lewis - March 1st, 2008 at 3:08 pm
No, can’t say I believe and I thinks it’s a stupid question, but, of course blind faith is proof enough when people are scared of change.
6. Tonny SS - March 1st, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Yes and No.
Ok, that was cheap.
Whatever there is a god or not, I don’t think God(s) will discriminate. I.E. God of Hebrews, Greeks, a limited sector of the world that was fortunate enough to learn of a God’s name/teaching.
You see, I don’t believe in a God that would condemn another half of the world, when that half never even heard of the guy.
So, that’s why I don’t believe in Christianity, Hindu, Islam, Tao….
And dear god, there will be blood in this thread.
But anyway, whether there is a God or not, it should not affect how you threat your fellow human beings.
7. JT - March 1st, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I don’t believe that God exists.
And Thomas Aquinas’ proofs aren’t very good and are outdated. Richard Dawkins pretty much destroyed them in The God Delusion.
8. Tonny SS - March 1st, 2008 at 3:10 pm
TREAT, I meant TREAT
9. John - March 1st, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Yes.
I found faith more than ayear ago.
10. mrbizmark - March 1st, 2008 at 3:18 pm
No, he is just made up in general consciousness to exist. It is an absurd question, really.
11. Cyn - March 1st, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. - Thomas Jefferson
Atheists often suggest that theirs is the default position, that there is a presumption of atheism. This places the burden of proof on the theist; if the theist is unable to make a persuasive case for the existence of God, then the atheist is justified in his atheism. The case for the presumption of atheism may be made in two ways, one resulting in a presumption of weak atheism, and the other in a presumption of strong atheism.
Arguments for Atheism for much, much more on the various arguments. this is only ONE quote.
Welcome to Iron Chariots, the counter-apologetics wiki. excellent resource for the counter-apologetics including extensive material regarding the existence or non-existence of God
In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to his or her life; nor perhaps to human affairs. Wikipedia: Apatheism my current public stance
The Black Pages and yes, all this and more comes from an archive of such material i’ve been collecting for a while.
so the short answer is ..no God does not exist. and there have been far better arguments posed in the sources previously cited and more. personally, i don’t need all that but i understand some people do, hence the inclusion.
and yeah J, you did it this time.
12. Ruairi - March 1st, 2008 at 3:22 pm
I dont think that the ‘popular’ perception of god through numerous faiths exists i.e. a person or idol
13. dangorironhide - March 1st, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Wow, you’ve really opened up the floodgates for this topic J…
14. Samsung - March 1st, 2008 at 3:25 pm
I don’t believe in ‘god’ as such, in the sense of god being a big old white guy with a long grey beard, but I do believe in some sort of a higher power. Its hard to explain but this thing I believe in does not have any human characteistics. It is more like a fundamental force in physics - and just holds the world together.
I hope I’m making sense.
There is gonna be some heated debate with this list
15. Eric - March 1st, 2008 at 3:26 pm
i say if you believe he does, then he does. but anyone who says they know for certain is just a liar….no one, anywhere, ever could ever say with certainty one way or another. its all about your beliefs
16. Bogle McNeep - March 1st, 2008 at 3:28 pm
to mrbizmark
How do you know his name then, smart arse?
17. Djb522 - March 1st, 2008 at 3:28 pm
I don’t believe there is “a god”, I do believe that there is some supreme being out there, because the universe is too perfect to have been created by a fortunate series of events (one of my friends dad’s thinks that he has a book with math equations that explains everything.) However, if there is a “God” so to speak, I do not believe he cares about us in any way whatsoever. He simply started the universe, then walked away. Our constant praying to “a god” is a waste of time.
18. Juggz - March 1st, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Nice to see Cyn come out of hiding:) and no God does not exist. If he does may strike me de……………..
19. JwJwBean - March 1st, 2008 at 3:32 pm
I will say I am noncommitted. Or maybe I should be committed. I am not whole heartedly sure there is a God, but not ruling out the possibility of a higher power. Okay yes the wimpy way out, but I do not have strong convictions either way. I do feel people who have a strong feeling either way are great. And I wonder where they get their unbendable belief. And even thougn I am on the fence I am not easily swayed either way.
20. Cyn - March 1st, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Juggz…there’s a difference between hiding and lurking.
cuz i’m always here.
21. badspellir - March 1st, 2008 at 3:34 pm
According to quantum mechanics, if you believe in the existence of God in some shape, force or form, then he/she/it exists, and in just the way you perceive. If you don’t, then this conversation is over and you save 10%. You save even more compared to Scientologists.
Perception equals reality and everyone wins.
(Except of course for those who dare oppose the Flying Spaghetti Monster).
Now that wasn’t so hard now, was it?
22. mrbizmark - March 1st, 2008 at 3:35 pm
What I mean is that ‘God’ (or any higher power) is made up by humankind, we think that he exists, but we have no proof that he does or doesn’t, making it an absurd question.
23. JG - March 1st, 2008 at 3:35 pm
I dont like to believe that theres an unknown third party interfering in my life, its unhealthy.
24. The Antichrist - March 1st, 2008 at 3:36 pm
I believe that God doesn’t exist, and that man created Him in his own image to alleviate the horrifying feeling of insignificance and transience associated with his mortal life in this painfully colossus universe.
The main argument put forward in defence of God’s existence (aside from the completely absurd ontological argument) is the idea that the universe seems to be too perfect to have come about by chance, and thus there must be a designer behind it. But the apparent perfection of the universe can just as easily be explained by the theory of parallel universes (i.e. there are infinite universes running alongside eachother, with different events being played out in each, so that between them all, everything that can possibly happen does happen. In such a case there would inevitably be a universe in which the conditions are just right to engender and sustain the lives we are living right now.) One might posit that there must be a creator behind the ‘multiverse’ of universes, but if God himself doesn’t need to have a cause, why must the multiverse?
Nonetheless, even if I’m wrong and the cause of the perfection of the universe really is God, then I still don’t believe in Him, because any God that allows so much suffering to occur to his creations is not worth believing in, and I’ve done well enough so far without him anyhow. Perhaps a quote by Epicurus will clarify my position:
“Is God willing to end suffering but unable?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but unwilling?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence comes suffering?
Is he neither willing nor able?
Then why call him God?”
For those who insist that the suffering is a test for us, please answer me these:
Why kill a newborn baby in order to test those around it? I’m not as omniscient as God is purported to be and I can think of many ways to test people without causng such suffering.
And if God can do anything, then why can’t he conceive of a universe in which suffering is not required in order to test his subjects?
And finally, if God is omniscient, why does he even need to test anything?
25. Juggz - March 1st, 2008 at 3:38 pm
w00t for the Antichrist, you win this topic!
26. Cyn - March 1st, 2008 at 3:41 pm
and what has he won Bob? why, a one way trip to Hell! *crowd cheers*
27. Kirk - March 1st, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Well Im pretty open to the idea of a higher being.
However the idea of the lord or ‘God’ known by it’s many has its flaws and there are many negative thoughts on the topic, if anything more than postive thoughts
There are millions of possibilities of our existence and meaning of life and to say it is the workings of ‘God’ is a little too narrow-minded in my opinion.
28. mrbizmark - March 1st, 2008 at 3:45 pm
I think this topic should be “Is there a higher being (or supernatural force) in the Universe?”
I think the idea of the Judeo-Christian ‘God’ is too narrow of a topic for conversation.
29. jfrater - March 1st, 2008 at 3:49 pm
mrbizmark: I never said “judeo Christian” - God is a supernatural force - why must I use politically correct terms to describe Him? You knew what I meant.
30. Creosote - March 1st, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Even if there was a God, would he be relevant? He would not be.
Omnipotence and omniscience (both of which are required in order to claim the title “Superior”) rule each other out (if you know everything and anything, you know in advance what what you are going to do, and you can’t change your mind), so a God cannot possibly have both qualities, and thus worshiping such a being seems a bit extravagant.
Furthermore, since there’s so much misery in the world today, as in the past, one would think he’d do something about that. However, it seems He’s more occupied with leaving an imprint of the face of Jebus in loafs of bread and uprooted trees in Kentucky. And given his omnipotence, wouldn’t it be easier to just knock over the tree to reveal such marvel than the much more tedious task of lining up tornadoes? In addition, it seems curious to me that this imprint is instantly recognized by people who have never seen Jebus before. Anyways, in considering His general disinterest in relieving misery, is it because:
-He wants to but he can’t (so He’s not omnipotent)
-He doesn’t want to (so He’s cruel)
-He’s simply not aware of it (so He’s not omniscient)
All in all, still not worthy of dedicating time to.
31. Creosote - March 1st, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Antichrist,
you posted your argument as I was typing mine. It’s a good one.
32. Cyn - March 1st, 2008 at 3:59 pm
hhmm..wonder where all the religionists are? so far looks like a buncha heathens.
33. The Antichrist - March 1st, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Creosote: Thanks - I love playing Devil’s Advocate lol
34. rearden - March 1st, 2008 at 4:00 pm
*mini applause to Antichrist* Well said.
Does God exist? I’ll go with no. As far as a higher power of some sort, I’ll still say no. Although, like Richard Dawkins correctly noted, even a good scientist always leaves open the possibility for the alternative.
“All thinking men are atheists.”
-Ernest Hemingway
35. DiscHuker - March 1st, 2008 at 4:01 pm
cyn: that was funny. i could hear the crowd-in-a-can cheer.
i’ll be different and get the pot stirred. yes, God exists. he proved it by the creation of the world. he proves it daily in the sustaining of the world. he proved it by appearing to his people many times over hundreds of years. he proved it on a much larger stage by taking the form of a human and walking the earth for approximately 33 years.
to answer the antichrist…(wow, that’s a scary thought) you leave out an option in your argument about evil…God is both able to end evil and powerful enough to do so but has reasons for not doing what you want him to that we do not understand. this isn’t so hard to see in your own life is it? did you want to get a flu shot when you were 2 years old? your parents were both able to end your “suffering” yet they choose to let you go through it for reasons that you could not understand.
there…that ought to get some people heated.
p.s. jayfray…you didn’t answer the question you pose.
jamie: does God exist?
jamie: st. thomas thought so.
come on in, the water’s fine
36. Dread Pirate Bob - March 1st, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I don’t believe god exists and have been challenged to prove he doesn’t but I don’t need to prove he does not exist someone needs to prove that he does and no one has done so. The thing is to prove that god exists would be the most disastrous thing that could happen to all religions. Proof of god’s existance would mean that mankind would then have to question which god and what god’s true nature is and all religion would collapse.
37. jfrater - March 1st, 2008 at 4:04 pm
rearden: I believe that Aquinas and Augustine were thinking men - they were neither atheists
DiscHuker: hehe
Smarty pants!
38. Ducky423 - March 1st, 2008 at 4:06 pm
If you need proof if there is a God or not…find a baby or small child, look into their eyes and when they smile at you, then you’ll know. Oh, and God has a very good sense of humor, the platypus attests to that.
39. Creosote - March 1st, 2008 at 4:07 pm
In addition, if God created everything, he also created knowledge, which means there was a point at which there was no knowledge available, even to God. Besides consider the immense difficulties of requiring knowledge out of scratch.
There’s also the issue that a God would have to know everything about what does NOT exist. But one cannot have knowledge of thing that do not exist.
40. mflo - March 1st, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Yes…no explanation needed
41. rneiderman - March 1st, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Other, wiser men than me have come up with proofs for the existence of God. If you ask me, I’ll tell you that God exists, no doubt. However, the only definitive way to prove his existence is to conduct a very scientific experiment.
Step 1: Wait for death.
Step 2: Observe data.
Step 3: Draw conclusion.
I hope I’m right about God, but if I’m wrong, and there is no God, dead me won’t care too much. I’d hate to assume there is not God and be wrong, though.
42. The Antichrist - March 1st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
DiscHuker:
“God is both able to end evil and powerful enough to do so but has reasons for not doing what you want him to that we do not understand.”
It’s unfortunate that you think this way. If God existed and had just read what you’d written, he’d know that he could do absolutely anything to you and then justify it by saying that he did it for reasons you don’t understand.
And as for for the flu jab analogy, if my parents were as powerful as God is supposed to be, they wouldn’t have created the flu virus in the first place.
43. endomental - March 1st, 2008 at 4:10 pm
I don’t know if I’m a religionist, but I do believe there’s a God. Proving it is beside the point: it’s not faith if it requires proof. Creosote’s points are all legitimate, but the presumption that there’s only three answers to the question of suffering is inaccurate.
I don’t much care whether someone believes or not. More power to whoever wants to believe whatever they want to believe. That doesn’t make the question either stupid or foolish.
Nor does maintaining one belief make someone scared of change. Religion, like sexuality, is not the sum total or defining trait of a person. Better to look at the whole person before making judgments.
44. Einar - March 1st, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Yes, God exists, and I agree with what DiscHuker said.
45. raye - March 1st, 2008 at 4:18 pm
i used to be very religious and i just got burnt out on church.
i really think god and all of his rules were meant to just scare people into following rules…
only if some people would just think about being moral…
“people don’t go to church because the believe in god, they believe in god because the go to church” -robbins, anthropologist
46. mrbizmark - March 1st, 2008 at 4:20 pm
jfrater: Sorry. I just normally associate ‘God’ with the God of the Jewish and Christian texts.
47. Creosote - March 1st, 2008 at 4:29 pm
It might be good for this discussion to point out that “proof” and “evidence” are two different things.
48. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Book 1, Chapter 1, Stanza 1, “And God said “Let There Be Laws Of Nature” and there Were.” Now close the book you’re done. Now I have to go digging for my Essay on “God”. Thanks Jamie.
49. visitorq - March 1st, 2008 at 4:33 pm
If god is omnipotent, could he create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?
50. mattchu - March 1st, 2008 at 4:39 pm
sorry if this is poorly written, ive never been much of a writer
i think god and religion were invented to scare people into doing what someone else percieves as the right thing to do, not neccessarily because it is right, but because they fear the consequences of their actions. the same way laws are created by man to keep order, so was god, but with larger consequences for what is wrong. religions also serve as a way to explain why things are and how they came to be, as most faiths were created before any scientific explanation was available for natural phenomena.
at the same time i think that maybe there is a higher power, just not one that is all powerful.
i’m still not 100% sure on all of what i think yet, but i’m only a kid, so who says i have to have everything figured out.
51. mattchu - March 1st, 2008 at 4:40 pm
visitorq: doesn’t that question completely undo the idea of omnipotence?
52. The Antichrist - March 1st, 2008 at 4:43 pm
visitor q: A fine point. I wish he could. Maybe then we could all get together and throw it on top of him
53. visitorq - March 1st, 2008 at 4:43 pm
mattchu: doesn’t that question completely undo the idea of omnipotence?
so then, if omnipotence doesn’t exist, god cannot exist.
54. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Which one?
55. Fili - March 1st, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Wow, 51 comments in and so far, there are no death threats or ALL CAPS!
Typical story here: I grew up believing in (the Christian) god for 16 years. Then I started hating my parents for raising me on a religion that made me hate myself. So, I do not believe any kind of god(s) exists. I’ve accepted the fact that some day I’m going to die, so I don’t need to make up any stories to make death “sweeter”.
Here is a list of gods: http://www.rationalresponders......ll_of_them
The reason why (for example) atheists don’t believe in the Christian god (or any other), is the same exact reason why (most) theists don’t believe in every single of of these gods.
So unless you believe in EVERY SINGLE GOD that people have worshiped, you are, in a way, an atheist to someone else’s god.
56. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Fili: The Vice Of God Is Booming. NOT YELLING!
57. thedeafguy - March 1st, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I believe in God, completely. However, i don’t believe in religion. Religion is something that ‘man’ made to make themselves powerful in the eyes of it’s people. The Catholics understood this back in the old days, they made it like they spoke to God on a regular basis and that the people were to do whatever the preacher says because God told him so. Whatever.
Jesus, I believe is the Son of God, but He never meant for Christianity to come out of his time here on Earth. He was actually against organized religion, really. Just wanted a relationship from us. But, that in my opinion is what the writers of the Bible said. From this statement, I don’t believe in the Bible. To me, it’s a great source of inspiration or stories, but not meant to be taken literally. I mean, “Jonah and the whale”? Based on some truth, sure, but you can’t have blind faith on that.
The Devil…just a boogeyman to keep us in check. Angels in Heaven…warriors for God. Storytelling. Simple.
So, my answer is, I believe in God as the creator of the universe and that He just wants us to live out life and He will do whatever he can to help us but “free will” states that he can’t get involve directly. But as in the “Bible” god, I don’t believe. I don’t believe in the ‘apocalypse” idea, but only that it will be brought on BY US AND NOT GOD HIMSELF. We’ll destroy ourselves.
Cheers, mates. Good subject.
58. bwmyers18 - March 1st, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Of course God exists … I spoke with Him this morning .
59. Chickensoup - March 1st, 2008 at 5:01 pm
bwmyers, you spoke TO him this morning. There’s a bit of a difference there…
60. Avi - March 1st, 2008 at 5:03 pm
God is irrelavant.
if it (i am saying IT on purpose since i am not sure a being such as god would have a gender) does exist and he follows a certain religion, whichever one that is, then it is damning a lot of people to hell, or whatever the punishment is, without being fair about it. at one point in time every person on earth followed religions and traditions which did not exist today, or are seen as silly and archaic. i guess religion changes and there is no proof that any single religion could be right just as there is no proof that any single god could exist. religion to me always seemed a whole lot less likely than God ever did.
if it does exist and follows no religion then i am just as safe in not believing in its existance because without religion there is no hell and no need to fear or worship God, since i doubt it cares about prayer or any of that nonsense.
If he does not exist then the universe would a far more beautiful place because of the fact that it was not just conjured up, but built and meticulously created into its current form.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -Carl Sagan
61. endomental - March 1st, 2008 at 5:08 pm
thedeafguy: Yeah. What you said.
It’s a much more complex question than it seems on its surface, since belief and nonbelief have more levels than the black-and-white question. Most of us (myself included) are expounding on our “yes and no” answers.
62. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 5:13 pm
I could go on and on about how Dogma was a good movie with great Ideas, But I won’t. So here is sample of what I Believe:
Big Bang Theory and the First: The Big Bang is commonly believed to be, By scientists, the Creation. A great explosion from a “Singularity” causing all manner of matter to spread throughout the expanse that we now know of as Our Universe. Theoretically, these Singularities can be found in black holes scattered throughout space. If we are to assume that, then it is reasonable, to think that our Current Universe came from a Singularity located in Another Universe. By simple train of thought we can come to the current, science has taken us only so far, conclusion that the same could be said about the “Other” Universe. This cycle may be a neverending circle Or Maybe what we should look for Instead of God is the First Universe. How did It come to be? Was it Actually God? Is it something that will Never be understood?
Why waste so much effort, so much hate, for simple questions. Didn’t God, in all of his wisdom, instill in us a sense of curiosity? Growth Spiritually in my mind is answering questions whether they are your own or not. Is it more of a sin to ask questions or to remain ignorant of each other?
63. InfiniteJorge - March 1st, 2008 at 5:19 pm
I love how the “AntiChrist,” (a very cunning and mysterious alias) wrote a very simple-minded, weak argument towards atheism and then buttered it up with a bunch of arbitrary vocabulary.
AntiChrist, Get out. Your argument sucks.
First of all, everyone here keeps trying to disprove the notion that God is completely just, and would fix all the problems in the world. This is only some of the views held by popular religions such as Christianity, aside from those religions, there are many religions that believe in a higher power that is not completely just, which is not unfathomable.
Now, to try to debunk this garbage:
>The main argument put forward in defence of God’s existence >(aside from the completely absurd ontological argument) is >the idea that the universe seems to be too perfect to have >come about by chance, and thus there must be a designer >behind it.
… that’s not at all the main argument. I’ve never heard this referred to as the “main” argument. Do you enjoy making stuff up?
>But the apparent perfection of the universe can just as >easily be explained by the theory of parallel universes (i.e. >there are infinite universes running alongside eachother, >with different events being played out in each, so that >between them all, everything that can possibly happen does >happen.
actually that doesn’t explain anything at all, that’s just a random theory out there on the the universe. And even if that is true, who created these “infinite parallel universes?”
The rest of what you typed is utter garbage and I don’t even feel like going into it. Your question, “Why does God need to test us,” from the Catholic point of view would be answered with: God isn’t TESTING us per se, but he gives us free will which allows for US to allow suffering to happen.
I’m assuming you’ve had an angst filled child-hood.
64. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Avi: for once you and I agree.
65. The Antichrist - March 1st, 2008 at 5:23 pm
It seems to me that this debate can’t really go anywhere. The simple reason is that we are pitting people who use reason against those who don’t.
All those who don’t believe in God do so through reason.
All those who believe in God don’t, because one cannot have a faith based on reason (for then it isn’t faith, but conjecture).
Us atheists could provide all the rational arguments in the world, and it wouldn’t convince you hardened religionists of a single thing, because your faith makes you as intransigent as the chairs you sit in right now.
All that our two individual parties can do is laugh at the other for being wrong. But for us athiests, we can at least rejoice in the fact that we bow down to no greater being, and live how WE want, free and fearless.
And if we atheists go to Hell for it, then at least we’ll be in each other’s distinguished company, all happy in the knowledge that we lived and died without fear
66. Anna - March 1st, 2008 at 5:25 pm
This is from what I read in the God Delusion, by Dawkins.
1. God is all-knowing.
2. God is all-powerful.
Conclusion: God is a paradox.
Reasoning: If God is all-knowing, he can look into the future. If God is all-powerfull, he can change the future.
Paradox: God knows he is going to change the future.
So no, I don’t think God exists.
67. Maverick - March 1st, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Well i choose to believe that there is a god but Atheists have a MUCH, MUCH better argument and…secretly…I tend to agree with all of it.
Answer: NO
68. goof_ball - March 1st, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I don’t think so, but there are many “God”s and certain people think certain “God”s exist, me not being one of them.
Also, if someone says, “Jeasus” you say “WHERE?!” and it make’s it funny lol
69. The Antichrist - March 1st, 2008 at 5:29 pm
InfiniteJorge:
Thanks for all the insults. Now, why don’t you actually try to put forward an argument?
70. JC - March 1st, 2008 at 5:29 pm
RELIGION IS A LIE!!!!!
RELIGION RIPS THE WORLD APART!
DOWN WITH RELIGION FOR IT HAS KILLED INNOCENT CHILDREN!
REMEMBER JONESTOWN! THE CRUSADES! RELIGION IS THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL AND IT SHOULD BE DESTROYED NOW!
71. goof_ball - March 1st, 2008 at 5:29 pm
I’m gonna try it out
Jesus!
72. rational - March 1st, 2008 at 5:31 pm
I do not beleive in god, and i nev er have even as a child. Its good for some people it comforts them, i wish I could have the comfort but i think rationally. St. Thomas Aquinas i do not feel is outdated (however said so above) because if you actually read what the man has to say, he has the best argument for the existence of god I have ever read, the Five Arguments http://members.aol.com/plweiss1/aquinas.htm is the link, its a little shorter then the actual text but you get teh jist. But remember I do not beleive in god, but he gives a pretty damn good argument (he actually thinks rationally!) anyway god was written by people, so why should i beleive some asshole who wrote about how i should follow whatever god says 2000 some odd years ago? religion is an opiate, it is a power tool (hmm constantine and christianity anybody????) and both and ill and cure for society. dont bitch cause someone wants to beleive, i wish i could i beleive and be happy that there was some after-life, but i beleive in eternal nothingness, and i mope around depressed because of it. yay for rationallity!
73. MPulse600 - March 1st, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Yes I do. I’ve seen enough in life to prove to me that there is a God. Not the god that stones disobeying women in The Old Testament, or the god that makes extremist Muslims kill others, or the god that makes the Westboro Baptist Church hate gays. It’s the God that gave us life and freedom and loves equally, the one that some (NOT ALL) atheists ignore, focusing on the gay haters and the old testaments and the extremists.
I see my favorite kind of dog, listen to music, and look at the sunset and see what God has given me, and thank him for it, rather than judging what humans have written and condemning them for human mistakes.
74. 2overpar - March 1st, 2008 at 5:34 pm
I believe that a substantial number of people on this planet who say they believe in god are just afraid to not believe in god. After all, the idea of eternal non-existence after death is a very difficult concept to wrap your mind around. Furthermore, a superior entity would not create a master plan where physical and mental suffering are so prevalent.
Lastly, who created this superior entity?
75. Purdnasty - March 1st, 2008 at 5:34 pm
you believe what you believe
we all know the truth sooner or later
76. MPulse600 - March 1st, 2008 at 5:36 pm
I also don’t think of it as Atheists have reason while Christians don’t. I think we both have reason, but the atheists don’t have faith. Many of us Christians believe in evolution, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have faith in God.
77. jeff - March 1st, 2008 at 5:38 pm
god doesnt exist, its honestly that simple, there is no proof for him, and it disproves himself and if we were to say the god fo the bible existed, would you really want to worship someone who basically tells you to go out and kill everyone who isnt worshipping him, but only thou shalt not kill applies to worshippers of him?, but the arguement isnt his properness and yes i made up a word, but rather his existence, so unto that i attest, isnt god just using the occums razor philosophy unto life and complicated things?, the inability to accept some things as just are, or as products of our own, or the faults of others?, yes it may seem more complicated, but it is true, i am an atheist, and i have yet to see proof of god, oddly enough proof of ghosts(had the injuries to prove it), but none of which will attest to the existence of god, there is no ultimate controller to everything, there is no creator god, it just kind of is, so deal with it.
78. Creosote - March 1st, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Not to stray away from the original question, but for those interested in the evolutionary origins of religion, I highly recommend “Religion Explained” by Pascal Boyer
79. jeff - March 1st, 2008 at 5:41 pm
by the way the proof was claw marks in my back, and as a taxidermist, who deals with pelts that were wrecked by animals, i know the difference between claws and anything else, and it was on my shoulder, and i know what youre thinking but there were no trees by, and no i didnt randomly get itchy and forget about it, i dont have claws sorry:P
80. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 5:43 pm
JC are you the JC from coast to coast? where have you been?
I would agree with Antichrist, but I still believe theirs a ‘thing’. I say ‘thing’ because I like to believe ‘god’ is just us, humans, putting a name on a unknowable force. Some just like to profit from this, ie religion.
81. InfiniteJorge - March 1st, 2008 at 5:46 pm
69. The Antichrist:
I don’t need to. All I have to do is forward you to the HUNDREDS of thousands of texts written, by people who aren’t angsty emo losers who turn to atheism. Try putting down your bullet-proof copy of the god-delusion for 2 seconds and actually being open-minded.
82. Andrea Carlena - March 1st, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Maybe he does. Who’s to say? Maybe Tom Cruise isn’t real…have YOU ever met him? Have you ever met god?
-Andrea Carlena Beauman
83. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 5:50 pm
If Tom Cruise is that much of a dill-hole, what does that make God?
84. The Antichrist - March 1st, 2008 at 5:50 pm
InfiniteJorge:
If you’d actually bothered to read my original post, instead of merely insulting my opinions like a little child, you’d have seen that it pre-emptively rebutts any of the propositions you made in your attack on me.
For example, you wrote on my presenting of an alternative theory to the apparent design of the universe:
“actually that doesn’t explain anything at all, that’s just a random theory out there on the the universe. And even if that is true, who created these “infinite parallel universes?”
But in my original comment I’d already written the following rebuttal:
“One might posit that there must be a creator behind the ‘multiverse’ of universes, but if God himself doesn’t need to have a cause, why must the multiverse?”
Please read people’s comments properly before presenting your counter-arguments, and don’t use the safety and anonymity of the Internet to hurl insults about people’s childhoods as it only serves to make you look like an idiot, which I’m sure you’re not.
85. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Maybe we should turn to the media to see if god is real!
86. Anna - March 1st, 2008 at 5:51 pm
InfiniteJorge: Please think before you comment. Your response says more about you than it does about atheism.
87. Scar.. - March 1st, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Nope.
If there was some sort of all powerful, being could wave his hand and create life, and can do anything, why is there disease, war, death, genocide, racism, sexism, all that.
Wtf kind of loving ‘God’ would put his ‘children’ in these kinds of terrible situations?!
88. boulderhead - March 1st, 2008 at 5:52 pm
I think the answer is unknowable, but I tend towards atheism.
@Bogle McNeep: I use that one, myself. A quote from “The Young Ones”, if I recall correctly. Whether God exists or not, He’s certainly had a powerful effect on humanity.
@The Antichrist: I find it interesting that any attempt to prove or disprove the existence of God almost immediately hinges itself on God’s nature.
Maybe He’s really clever and knowledgeable, but not omniscient. Maybe He’s extremely benevolent, but fallible - we are, it’s claimed, created in His image, after all. Maybe He is so powerful that He can create universes, or maybe only powerful enough to destroy those others that run in parallel.
Any misunderstanding can be explained by positing that, rather than being supernatural, he exists within the natural universe, but is outside our ability to perceive or describe Him adequately. Perhaps the faith that some people claim to have, is actually exactly that ability. Or maybe it’s the lack of it that causes us to conclude that He is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and present throughout eternity. Possibly it’s merely the result of people playing “My God’s bigger than your God.
Also, even if God is all the “omnis” above, He still has choice, and perhaps we can’t understand on what He based those decisions, or what the true outcome of them may be: “He works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.”
Oh, and maybe He’s a She, and she lives with a group of similar beings on a mountain in Greece.
Dear God - XTC from “Skylarking (1986)
Lyrics by: Andy Partridge
Dear God,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I don’t mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
cause they don’t get enough to eat …
From God.
I can’t believe in you.
Dear God,
Sorry to disturb you,
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears,
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
cause they cant make opinions meet …
About God,
I cant believe in you.
Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!
Dear God,
Don’t know if you noticed,
But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true.
Well I know it ain’t and so do you …
Dear God,
I can’t believe in …
I don’t believe in …
I won’t believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners,
No devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
You’re always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And it’s the same the whole world round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
That the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,
Is just somebody’s unholy hoax,
And if you’re up there you’ll perceive,
That my hearts here upon my sleeve.
If theres one thing I don’t believe in…
It’s you,
Dear God.
89. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Scar.. I believe the answer is that God Hates Us All - slayer
90. Twinkle - March 1st, 2008 at 5:58 pm
I believe God exists and i don’t think the concept of God follows the same logic that we do. it’s probably something as confusing as dreams (like you dream of your friend john, and there are two johns in the dream, you know they’re different because you’re talking to one john about the other john, yet you also know they’re the same person…)
we cannot reduce the concept of God to simple mathematical logic that we know, because His intelligence would be far greater than ours. We would be like debating children, and God is like an adult who merely laughs at our ridiculous logic. Simply because we are thinking that we are correct, and are using the appropriate logic, and yet adults know better!
i believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. and anna, i too am confused about that paradox, about God knowing the future, etc. But then i don’t think God follows our concept of time at all!
Yes, I believe in God, but I am not religious. I believe there is a higher power, something that exists with an intelligence which is far greater than ours, or probably like an infinite intelligence.
I would not claim to know God or to understand God, though, because that is like putting the whole universe into one brain.
91. Scar.. - March 1st, 2008 at 5:58 pm
mine22, Apparently to alot of people I’ve talked to that believe in God that he love’s everyone, therefore does not hate.
Therefore God does not exist or he wouldn’t put us in horrid situations involving disease, death, war etc..
92. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 5:58 pm
I know I know I don’t add much to the theory of the existents of god, however no one is right and no one is wrong. How are we going to prove or disprove that? Impossible.
93. HollyTamale - March 1st, 2008 at 6:01 pm
I do believe that there is a God. It is said that the universe is God’s creation and I don’t think that organisms could have just developed on Earth after some “Big Bang.” But what bewilders me is from where did God come? How was “The Creator” created? I think that I have far too little intelligence to comprehend such things. It makes my head hurt. As does trying to think of where the universe ends or when time began. Does anyone else feel the same?
94. Christopher Borne - March 1st, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Nope!
95. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Audience: “Hey Dr. Frank! how does it feel to have Gods finger in your ass?
Dr. Frankenfurter: “Devine!”
Live performance of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, Audience participation lines.
96. visitorq - March 1st, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Scar..: Wtf kind of loving ‘God’ would put his ‘children’ in these kinds of terrible situations?!
God is a sadist. God enjoys watching people suffer. Every time someone dies, god has an orgasm… no I’m just kidding, I don’t want to go to hell
97. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:04 pm
HollyTamale: Bingo!, more or less. Comment 62
98. Anna - March 1st, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Ya the paradox takes a while to wrap your brain around. And some people might not think it’s a paradox. Anyway, I can try to explain it, but it might not make sense
So God can change the future because he can look into the future. But that means that he knows that he is going to change the future.
So it becomes a loop. He knows he’s going to change the future, but so he can change the future again, but then he already knew that. It keeps on going.
99. Twinkle - March 1st, 2008 at 6:06 pm
it does anna, but the God we are talking about is far more intelligent that us, who has better logic. liek i said, we can’t put the whole universe in our brain.
100. Twinkle - March 1st, 2008 at 6:07 pm
maybe it would help us all if we define “God”. What is God?!?!?
101. Anna - March 1st, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Twinkle: Right, but from my point of view (I’m an atheist, which you probably already knew), the only person/phenomenon with superious logic than man is Mr. Spock, and he’s fictional.
I do understand where you’re coming from though.
102. Thesonof - March 1st, 2008 at 6:10 pm
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/v.....;start=120
recursive!.
103. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:15 pm
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/3923/ ….. http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/17547/ ….. This is funny, watch them in order. The proof is in the Bananas!!!
104. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 6:17 pm
I got it Anna, we all have to suffer because god is stuck in a never ending dimension of time because he tried to change time, and he cant help us now. He doesn’t hate us hes just stuck, because hes a dumb ass, and we are in his image. go figure.
105. Joel - March 1st, 2008 at 6:20 pm
It’s been interesting to read the responses and have the overwhelming trend be one of atheism or agnosticism. It’s also interesting that the majority of the conversation centers around a few subjects: reason vs. faith; the existence of evil and suffering in the world; and God as creator vs. the universe simply coming into being.
There have been plenty of articulate and intelligent people over the past few hundred years that have given eloquent reasons for faith, so I won’t go much further than to say: yes, I do believe that God exists; I am absolutely convinced that He is loving and relevant and active in our world; and I cannot scientifically or objectively give absolute proof for His existence. I suppose that makes me a minority in the conversation…but that’s why we’re having a dialogue.
106. JwJwBean - March 1st, 2008 at 6:21 pm
To 71: WHERE?
107. rhharley - March 1st, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Not even a little.
108. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:26 pm
So much for the aliens, ay Jamie?
109. Anna - March 1st, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Crimanon: Thanks for the links, that was hilarious. I always knew bananas were special.
mine22: Haha. Very nice reasoning. You know, I’m not saying God is stupid, just so everyone knows.
110. Nelia - March 1st, 2008 at 6:27 pm
As long as I don’t think about it too hard, I believe there is some sort of God. When I try to work out what kind of God that would be, and think about it logically, I just convince myself there isn’t one. I figure I’ll let my ideas about God develop organically, but I wouldn’t rule out the idea of my becoming religious if I was faced with the death of a loved one or something along those lines. I’ve seen atheist friends of mine turn to God in hard times, and I’ve seen religious friends turn away from God.
People believe or don’t believe, but that is pretty fluid. I don’t think I could argue one way or another. I could use logic, but the idea of God isn’t a particularly logical one. If God does exist, “what” or “who” he is, or what he is made of, or how he functions would be well beyond human understanding, so why try?
I’ve officially added nothing to this discussion but “why bother,” haha. i suck.
111. bluecheese - March 1st, 2008 at 6:32 pm
I’d rather live believing there is a God and come to find out there isn’t one when i die, then to live thinking there isn’t one and come to find out there is one when i die
112. Anna - March 1st, 2008 at 6:35 pm
bluecheese: I think that what you’re describing is Pascal’s Wager and it’s wrong logic IMO.
113. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Nella: That’s a very American stance to have on the matter. Hypothetically, praying while in a large group could also be nothing more than the Mind over Matter/collective thought helping a loved one. Since Science has yet to understand completely how the mind works, it’s feasible.
114. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Anna: I like how they represented God as a Native!
115. shrpshooter - March 1st, 2008 at 6:41 pm
God? Total blasphemy.
And hes also out to collect all your money
116. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 6:42 pm
In short what I really believe is that god is life therefore we are all still in his image and all that jazz. Makes sense to me and thats all that counts, to me.
117. Anna - March 1st, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Crimanon: Ya that was great! And I love how they described it as “The Atheist’s Nightmare”. I hope I can sleep tonight.
118. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Mine22: To the point and in my mind all that ever really needs to be said…. Just so long as you aren’t forcing it on people. Faith has it’s advantages and has made the weakest Strong.
119. Scar.. - March 1st, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Another reason I don’t believe in ‘God’ is because- Why some all knowing being create a world and offer rewards for believing him, and punish those who don’t eternally?
It would be so unfair to those in remote country that will never hear about this ‘God’, they would be unfairly punished simply by lack of knowledge, or sources to provide them this knowledge.
What kind of ‘God’ who loves his children, all of them, even if they don’t believe in them, punish them eternally in, as the bible would describe, hell, a burning, miserable place where you live in eternal suffering.
So ‘God’ who loves all his little ‘children’, and does not hate anyone would send people to this place?
Also-
From reading the bible, I read that God created in the garden of eden a tree, that people weren’t supposed to eat from. They did, so the whole world became sinful, and women got cursed with child bearing. Lovely. Why would God put such tree in the acsess of humans in the first place?
120. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Crimanon - Exactly
121. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Atheist: “Oh, my God, quick Hit me with that Bible… Ow… Again… Much better.”
122. Scar.. - March 1st, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Sorry for all the spelling errors I have trouble typing on my laptop.
123. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Scar - think of it as a story to tell little children, to tell them something you yourself cant explain, something like the birds and the bees.
124. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Scar: It was a test of Man and faith. Clearly Man failed. Why does everybody reference the Old Testament? Even the Vatican considers it “Out dated”.
125. jesse - March 1st, 2008 at 6:49 pm
no ones reading mine
126. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Mine22: they should make a Birds and the bees puzzle… Insert Tab A into Slot B.
127. Victoria - March 1st, 2008 at 6:51 pm
No because their are to many contradictions in the bible, far too many fallacies.
Also, if you are truly educated, and would like to think scientifically upon this matter, than you should KNOW that their is no such thing as a God or God.
However, if you have FAITH, then no argument can overcome that personal belief.
Scientifically, like i said, though, it cannot and does not exist.
128. Scar.. - March 1st, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Crimanon- Why would this ‘God’ create a perfect world in his image, and put a test like this? Does this mean that he wanted to see mankind suffer?
129. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 6:52 pm
I still don’t get that story, shouldn’t it be the bees and the flowers?
130. lightningclash - March 1st, 2008 at 6:55 pm
I think people aren’t ready to accept the fact that they don’t know. We can’t possibly know why we’re here and how we got here. People are looking for answers and the “god answer” seems to be easy to swallow. I say we should all accept the fact that we don’t know, stop arguing about things like God and start trying to fix this mess of a world we’re in right now. Obviously this is way too much to ask.
131. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Test of faith young padiwon. Or he wanted to see how bad he Really screwed up, I’m sure that in even Eve there were Toxic plants. Better to kick them out before they did something Really stupid.
132. matt - March 1st, 2008 at 6:56 pm
after reading a few comments, i noticed that some people used the “problem of suffering” defense to prove that God is non-existent, practically saying no respectable God would allow people to suffer as they do, as a moral assessment one must say that if this world is designed, it is the work of a bumbler or a sadist.
let’s suppose, contrary to the fact, that this world were a paradise from which all possibility of pain and suffering were excluded. the consequences would be very far-reaching. for example no one could ever injure anyone else, the bank safe, robbed of a million dollars, would miraculously become filled with another million dollars; fraud, deceit, conspiracy and treason would somehow leave the fabric of society undamaged. again, no one would be injured by accident: the mountain climber, steeple-jack, or playing child falling from a height would float unharmed to the ground; the reckless driver would never meet with disaster. no dangers at all.
to make possible this continual series of “insanity”, nature would have to work by “special providences” instead of running according to general laws which men must learn to respect on penalty of pain and death. the laws of nature would have to be flexible: sometimes gravity would operate, sometimes not; sometimes an object would be hard and solid, sometimes soft. there could be no sciences ’cause there aint no enduring world structure to investigate.
in eliminating the problems and hardships of an objective environment, with its own laws, life would become like a freaking dream in which, delightfully but aimlessly, we would float and drift at ease. such a world, however well it might promote pleasure, would be very ill adapted for the development of the moral qualities of human personality. in relation to this purpose it would be the worst of all possible worlds, ya dig!
can i get an amen? haha!
133. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Eden, sorry, getting my drink on. And my mind is still on the birds and the…. Bees and the Trees, Ha, I make a funny.
134. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Victoria - An uneducated man, like me, or an intoxicated one, like me, would say that God didn’t write the bible it was man interpreting what god was telling him. my personal option about the bible it was an edited version of an old guy eating mushrooms out in the desert, therefore it was jim Morrison’s book edited by the pope. I should stop now.
135. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Matt: Nothing to strive for then, correct? Stagnation of the mind and the insanity that ensues.
136. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Mine22: AAAAHHHHHh, that was awesome!
137. panda - March 1st, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Yes, I believe god does exist.
138. bizzoony - March 1st, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Nope, science completely disproves any idea of there being a god.
139. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Bizzoony: Care to contribute your thoughts?
140. stevenh - March 1st, 2008 at 7:20 pm
1) god - as defined as a super-being that somehow cares about what you might think about in a pointy-topped building (prayer in church) is a silly concept.
2) god - as a higher being is plausable. I was plenty high thoughout the 1970’s and very possibily saw god.
3) god - as an excuse to behead, blow up, and otherwise hurt fellow humans? That god exists for sure.
So Jamie, In answer to your question - I suppose it depends on the definition…
141. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Bizzoony: Science hasn’t figured out Humans, How would they disprove god?
142. petey mcgee - March 1st, 2008 at 7:24 pm
i spent 5 years as a park ranger. that job entailed me walking about 4 hours a day through the woods. i have been out in all seasons, all weather, and everything between. spend spring in the woods, and you will be convinced that yes, god does exist. there’s no other way i can rationally explain it. i am a scientist by nature and have struggled with the idea that there is really no rational reasoning behind god. a higher power does not make rational sense. but see the flowers. see the growth where there was dormancy all winter. hear the birds and smell the growth. whatever you call it, god is real.
143. Diogenes Cornball - March 1st, 2008 at 7:38 pm
I love that word ” exist” in the question title. Do we, as humans, have to question existance in order to come to god?no.I dont think it has to be that difficult.
Is this a human thought?yes. Or do dolphins or elephants think of god too?
If they do then where is their proof? If we are the only lives that exist with god than where does that place us?
Does god think we exist?
It’s three words:Does God Exist.
I like that god is still a man (he) to many. Come on ladies! how long has it been sence women’s lib? get on it! –no no no.Just foolin. I like women.
but what I was sayin was that I also like the vengful gods full of fury and stomping thunder.Or a God like a forrest of tangled webs, with thoughts-like-smoke blowing through like time.
Is the proof in the best of human achievment’s?
the soul singer or the great tenor?
To exist. we exist with god? “How dare you place we before god!”
god before i….or is it i before god?
a haunting magnificance.
a dull ho hum-oh shit, I dont have time for religous talk, i gotta catch the bus to go to work.Jeez I hate my job.I have no friends. I took up drugs and cutting myself to feel. I became a shell of myself. The taste of Satan was sweet. Then, I started reading this book and it changed my life completely.
acceptance
denial
truth
trend
root
the inner
the outer
the all knowing
is there a nothing knowing god/ a kinda slacker god.
naw, cause god, by god, is odd and is superduper .
if god exists and is binded by no religion/ no form/ no reasoning/ no rug of solidarity, ect.
if god became a discussion in abstractions.
—
allrite.the above is my whithin the hour of the existance of god and proof of bit.
of the cuff.
stay tuned for part two.
oh god no!
wha? huh?
144. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Sorry its hard for me to read long posts
145. Diogenes Hornbill - March 1st, 2008 at 7:43 pm
petey mcgee: you know, the early american landscape painters that painted the american landscapet depicted the proof of the existance of god.
They also made sketches from life and went back to their studios to elaborate the depictiction.
Intersting.
146. Mom424 - March 1st, 2008 at 7:43 pm
I believe in faith. It appears to be a necessary fact of the human condition. Those who espouse atheism certainly appear to hold their faith in science and rationality as tight to their heart as those that believe in God. Faith is an answer to a question; Why am I here?, What purpose do I serve?, What happens when I die?. Atheists have faith that when they die they will contribute to the carbon chain and become one with the earth. Religious folk believe that when they die, they will become one with god. Everyone needs to believe in something.
I believe that a higher consciousness is possible; When someone close to me dies I have faith that my grief and feelings/thoughts somehow reach them. I have no rational reason for this belief. Simple Faith.
Do I believe in an omnipotent, all-seeing, all-knowing god.
No, nor do I believe Jesus to be the son of god. This does not mean that Jesus did not die for humanity, or for a noble cause. The freedom to believe what you choose is a cornerstone of progressive society. The courage to die rather than forgo your beliefs is worthy of worship. For all the religion-haters out there who only focus on the evils of the church and organized Religion, think for a moment of the accomplishments of organized religion. Where were many of the great minds of the past educated? For goodness sake the great leaps and bounds of modern civilization can be traced back to the printing press and the spread of knowledge. Everyone familiar with Gutenburg? Most of the great art and literature of the world is a direct consequence of faith. Japanese art that venerates Kami, Buddhist architecture, Michaelangelo’s Pieta, The Great Pyramids at Gaza, the lovely dye work and tapestries of the Native Central Americans, The Totem poles of the West coast, The Cool blow paintings of Ayers Rock. All are testaments of faith. Faith that answers the questions, Who am I?, Why am I here? What is my purpose? Where do I fit in?
When I enter a house of worship it is not the presence of God that gives me comfort, but the feeling of connection to the rest of humanity. The universality of the quest. I am part of something greater than myself, part of an amazing journey, a journey shared for thousands of years. All to answer the questions; Who am I? and Why am I here?
147. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 7:44 pm
What?…
148. Magnolia - March 1st, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Absolutely.
149. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Mom424:Great post
150. Ben - March 1st, 2008 at 7:48 pm
I don’t know if there is a god either way. Even if there were a god I don’t think that you could prove he/she/it exists until you die and meet them. If I had to believe in a god though, I would like to think that god might have created the universe, but he/she/it doesn’t really play an active role in what happens. Plus if I were to believe in one god than I would have to think that there would have to be more. It doesn’t matter to me either way. The way I figure it is, knowing there is a god doesn’t solve any questions for me…. it solves nothing more than saying the universe just was and will always be… because if there was a god than where did he/she/it come from?
151. VikingBerserker - March 1st, 2008 at 7:48 pm
I lean towards Taoism.
While people are argueing all day what to call a “chair” and trying to define the “chair” - I just sit and enjoy it.
152. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 7:52 pm
viking that was awesome, why explain the beer and just enjoy it.
153. souxieq - March 1st, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Yes, no matter what you call god, a higher power exists. I am not religious. Religion just makes people argue….and murder.
What bothers me is that there is so much hate and anger in god’s name. I don’t think god has anything to do with hate and anger, and I’m pretty sure he/she/it doesn’t care what he/she/it is called. I think that God, Ahura Mazda, et cetera are all the same entity. Different cultures will naturally have different takes on how they view this entity. I think we all need to stop bickering about the fine details. The god I believe in loves us, all of us, and isn’t going to get all pissed off if we don’t spell his name right or imagine him with the wrong color eyes.
That’s my take on things anyway. I hope I didn’t offend.
154. JMS Bones - March 1st, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Does A god exist? Yes.
Does any conception of god ever worshiped by man exist? No.
155. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Mine22: To Beer!
Souxieq: The whole point of these is to discuss. Anyone getting mad should just chill and have a beer.
156. Mom424 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Crimanon; Thanks, I’m actually getting a little weepy thinking about this stuff. Actual tears…I’m gonna go smoke a joint.
157. souxieq - March 1st, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Crimanon: Thanks. People just get so worked up.
I’m not worked up, but I’m gonna have a drink anyway.
158. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:04 pm
yes to the almighty joint
god does love us
amen
159. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:05 pm
OH MY GOD!(kind of appropriate isn’t it
) Jamie, this will cause like 123453765844936396 F***ing comments! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?!? and i say no, there is too many religions like christianity that have the same kind of god, and i think god is just an idea to live a better life that got blown out of proportion.
160. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:06 pm
mom424:you have kids and you smoke weed? cool!
161. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Ahh, the high school mantras are coming back…. “Boooooooong”
162. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Hey What if God smoked Cannabis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PybtBKSAtLM
163. Diogenes Hornbill - March 1st, 2008 at 8:10 pm
so…anyway, back to :
“Does God Exist?”
164. souxieq - March 1st, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I often wonder if our usage of the word “um” came from “om”. Anyone know?
165. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:12 pm
“Ohm”, the song of the universe, Yogis and stuff like that.
166. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Souxieq - sounds good, also its Saturday night. so you know.
167. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:12 pm
*Sound sorry
168. stevenh - March 1st, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Mom424 smoking a joint - now Mom’s a higher power
169. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Hey, its saturday, smoke all the weed ya like.
170. souxieq - March 1st, 2008 at 8:15 pm
mine22: er?
171. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:16 pm
And im expecting the return of Bible Dude pretty soon.
172. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:16 pm
beer
173. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Jamie: Suggestion… Chat room??? maybe some sort or private messaging?
174. Mom424 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Csimmons; I was cool before you were born. I also believe in the need/want of humanity to catch a buzz. I choose weed as a way to relax. All of you who are offended by the “demon weed” can substitute Martini for joint. But I would be way more wasted from the martini.
175. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Mom… is awesome!
176. souxieq - March 1st, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Mom424: I’m allergic. I’m screwed if I ever get glaucoma. Doesn’t offend me though.
177. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Mom424:amen
im going to bed, ill expect my inbox to be bulging tomorrow morning because i asked for follow up comments(hits self in head)so ill be back tomorrow for this argument.
178. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:21 pm
GOD, oh yeah, back to the subject. Loving Being or kid with a magnifying glass???
179. HollyTamale - March 1st, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Matt: I agree whole-heartedly. We have suffering because no one would know happiness if sadness was not present in their lives as well. All sunshine and no rain make a desert.
180. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:25 pm
No one has brought up Intelligent Design either…. Your View Do Aliens/God Exist???
181. Aaron - March 1st, 2008 at 8:25 pm
My personal opinion is that I reserve judgment. How can I claim to be so wise as to presume to know the truth. So I live my life the best way I know how, and if there is a God, I hope that he/she will accept that, and if there is no God, then at least I wasn’t wrong either way.
But when it comes down to it, does it really matter if there is a God or not? If we all respected each other and were the best we could be, it wouldn’t matter if there was a God or not.
182. downhighway61 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:28 pm
so someone wrote about the vatican saying that the old testament was outdated?
does that mean that the new testament will be outdated someday?
and no, i don’t believe.
183. mine22 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:29 pm
hollytamale - thats a good point.
184. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:30 pm
guess what, im back! my parents decided to let me have my labtop for the night! so i’ll be arguing all night!
crimanon:that is weird, why hasn’t anyone brought that up?
185. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:31 pm
DownHighway: Yes I did and God I hope so.
186. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:33 pm
I feel alone in my small town, only me and this other kid don’t believe in god. the population is mainly baptist, methodist, presbytarians, etc. But my town isn’t judgemental calling me a satanist and crap, so it isn’t that bad.
187. Melissa - March 1st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
God is love. Humanity was and is continually given a choice to choose faith or to trust in their own understanding. I’m not perfect, but (pacifist) Christianity is. Petey Mcgee, check out answersingenesis.org for some scientific answers to your questions.
188. Mom424 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
I am looking forward to Bibledude. Is he going to respond to my post? I doubt it, although if he adopted my attitude he would be a much happier person and maybe he could heal. He is a wounded soul.
189. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
All do have to say that these schools opting not to carry it are well within rights. It hasn’t become As mainstream as Evo or Create but it should at some point be taught. Aliens are to theoretical for the classrooms. The Uplift Saga makes for a good book series but not as a basis for a Creation trifecta, Yet.
190. SubliminalDeath666 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:36 pm
I say that we will never find out until we die.
191. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Mom: Attitude=Stoned?
192. RK - March 1st, 2008 at 8:39 pm
If there is a God, it is not within the human construct to be able to define it. For a force to be omnipotent and benevolent, to create the universe and produce everything we have known is more than human imagination can fathom. i highly doubt that one such force could be responsible for everything, therefore the possibility of the existence of God seems highly unlikely to me personally. I feel as though those who believe in God follow through blind faith observations of lucky coincidences that have occurred throughout the world. “Medical miracles” and such things are considered God’s work when there is nothing that supports such a claim. I guess i’m just one of those people that require proof to belive. Or maybe even less problems in the world. If God’s so benevolent, whats with all the genocide, hunger, poverty, and killing? Thats my oppinion.
193. Mom424 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Ha, ha, no, but I’m not all weepy anymore. And I’m serious about Bibledude. Like Jamie said, anyone with that much animosity towards religion must have had a great deal of faith at one time.
194. SubliminalDeath666 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Who the hell is Bibledude?!
195. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:44 pm
heres my 2 cents
Do i believe in a all-seeing omnipitent god? No. I don’t believe any religion is truly right, we as humans throughout history have been searching for a higher power(s) and i never understood why. I personally believe we should just live our lives well, “isms” just get in the way of living life to its fullest, like judaism, hinduism, etc. And I don’t think bad of you if you do believe in god or any religion, i just don’t believe myself, i truly lost my faith about 5 years ago(im 13 so it may sound shocking) when i read the bible and saw all the stuff that was in it, which if you truly want to turn into a atheist, just read the bible,some really weird stuff was the fact that it says you can sell your daughter into prostitution, it says some very immoral stuff like that, if you want proof, watch these links
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....playnext=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....mp;index=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....mp;index=2
196. Hyphysaurus - March 1st, 2008 at 8:50 pm
i believe in God and Christ as my savior, i also believe that all churches have taught us to worship the church and not God
197. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:50 pm
subliminaldeath:i agree, we won’t know until we die, and bibledude was a atheist who once was very religious person and commented like hell on the bizarre biblical tales list, just read the thread.
198. souxieq - March 1st, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Csimmons: Man wrote the bible. 2000 years ago. Don’t let a man made book confuse you. This is one of my major problems with religion; it turns people into athiests.
199. SubliminalDeath666 - March 1st, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Oh yeah!! Now I remember that idiot! Thanks.
200. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 8:55 pm
souxieg:I believe reason will turn anyone who is in question of their faith into an atheist, not religion, if you truly believe in a religion with pure blind faith, you can’t be.
201. Isan - March 1st, 2008 at 9:04 pm
does it even matter?
will it make one jot of difference to anyones lives if someone shows up one day with irrefutable proof one way or the other? (other than some people feel very smug and the some others are rather anoyed)
202. jimmyschaps - March 1st, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Why would inocennt people die?
Why would people starve all over the world?
Why are we so confused to which ‘God’ is the right one?
Why isn’t thier peace in the world?
Why hasn’t god made given us a sign?
203. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 9:17 pm
The proof will be a blessing for scientists and a test of faith for religions.
204. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Jimmyschaps: Any answers with those questions? Your own opinions maybe?
205. Diogenes Spoonfill - March 1st, 2008 at 9:18 pm
i dont think god exists.
commentators clique
the raspy voice among sliding doors.
the evening news
back one’s self in a corner and one is bound to believe in a god, in a light. If the pain goes away. But the pain is moot. The wail of existance is thriving without all that.on a biological level with the decay and resurgence.
aw jeez. theres only so far i can go without thinking of god existing in someway.
jeez, my thoughts are scattered.I’m almost out. Can you hook me up Mom?
dont blame me if it dont reach 1000.
It’s allrite:
comming up next:
The Story that will break your back in a crack!
make you feel just reet.
206. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 9:25 pm
topic Bibledude: I’m really glad I missed all of that, just reading what he posted made my head hurt, did anyone get what he was trying to say?
207. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 9:26 pm
crimanon:i don’t think anyone did!
208. jimmyschaps - March 1st, 2008 at 9:28 pm
the bigger topic is religion as a whole. should thier be religion?
yes and no
Religion gives people hope. In the poorer parts of the world were they have nothing they have stronger religion. When a person has money and doesnt need help from a anonymous source , why bother? Religion also causes wars. If all religions are around to help people and to guide them in life, why would they say the other religions are wrong. Should a religion suggest peace between others? and if they claim thier religion is the only true one and has the only trure god, then souldnt that be so oviuos that all people will follow it? See, the idea of gos, or god originaly started because philosiphers couldn’t explain natural phenomenons. That why thier were originaly so many. Diffrent Gods to explain diffrent thing. Then as people evolved and became smarter they only had one God. Then there was Jesus, sure Jesus existed but was he really the son of God? Many people claim the are God or are related to God, wht made him special. People back then belived whatever they wanted to. They had no knowlage of the world around them, so as apart of human nature , they want to have answers, FAST. They would belive who gave them any answer. Sure Jesus did great things , but does that mean he was the son of God? No, mabye jesus should then serve as a model for how others should treat each other. It has been said he helped whomever needed help, and never cared who you were or were you came from. Shouldn’t we all act the same? Why can’t we all just get along. Not have a religion telling us how to act. Why can’t we, as humans, spread peace? Why cant we just get along….
…And in the end The love you take Is equal tot he love you make. - The Beatles
209. Bill - March 1st, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Yes. God created everything, and evolution is just an continuation and adaptation of what God created. It’s possible to believe in both; it’s not written anywhere that they must be separate schools of thought. Religion is just unexplained science…science that is beyond the comprehension of human understanding.
Unfortunately, humans misrepresent and/or misinterpret God’s intentions (like during the Spanish Inquisition), and bad things result! Then again, Communism (advocated the lack of God) looked great on paper, until it was put into practice, and millions died as well…We’re screwed either way; but me personally, I believe in God, because faith and it’s promise of heaven and everlasting life seems like a better alternative than not having faith and ending up ‘just dead’ in a hole in the ground like my dog is in the backyard. The human soul is too tough for that kind of bleak final ending. That’s all I have to say about that (besides, my beer buzz is starting to wear off)!
210. Chris - March 1st, 2008 at 9:33 pm
this is easy–absolutely noy
211. Chris - March 1st, 2008 at 9:33 pm
I meant *not*
212. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Jimmyschaps: }=====[#religion#]—-*, “Give me my fix”
213. Gravy - March 1st, 2008 at 9:43 pm
I believe in God, but I think he is so complex that you and I can’t grasp him. Its like a cat trying to grasp the concept of solar fission, it has no concept of it.
I have heard of a theory that I thought was cool: believe in God, so that if there is one, you are doing what’s right, but if there isn’t one, then it wont matter.
214. Matteo - March 1st, 2008 at 9:54 pm
yes, i do believe good does exist
215. dreamcatcher - March 1st, 2008 at 9:56 pm
If there is a god and he is omnipotent then he is indifferent. A complete contradiction in itself.
216. mar - March 1st, 2008 at 9:56 pm
we don’t have enough evidence to prove whether God exists or doesn’t exist. The only thing we can say is “We don’t know.”
217. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Mar: Faith.
218. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 10:08 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design :Long read: Any thoughts??? or are we leaving this out of the subject???
219. someguy - March 1st, 2008 at 10:15 pm
yes
220. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 10:17 pm
someguy: too touchy for you?
221. Maggot - March 1st, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Since the answer to the second question is “no”, the first question cannot be answered at all.
222. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 10:21 pm
crimanon:well, what do you think of intelligent design?
223. Crimanon - March 1st, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Csimmons: let me put down my bible, change the channel on the Tv, and wipe my ass with a David Brin Novel. the only thing they did was take the god out of creationism, slip in a midwestern ufo sighting, and say Everyone can stop fighting now. I’ll agree with the last part whole-heartedly. The Rest? Needs work and it Can’t be proven until They/It visit(s). Of all of the perspectives I’ve argued This is the one I know the least about and I was Hoping to lure someone in. I need a better bait. Oh I know…… BOOBS, COMETALKABOUTBOOBSandgodBUTMAINLYBOOBSgod.
224. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 10:44 pm
okay, whats your favorite kind of boobs?
225. Csimmons - March 1st, 2008 at 10:47 pm
And my view on creationism is like yours, they took the god out of creationism and said it was a scientific theory, well it isn’t ‘cus it can’t be tested, a huge flaw in their “scientific theory” crap.
226. Trish - March 1st, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Looks like I found this convo a lil late!! Ill tell everybody why I dont think God exists… because science does!
227.