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This is to say that I am sorry for publishing the list on mass murders. I should have been more thorough in my checking of the numbers and I should have followed my first instinct (which normally I do) regarding the especially controversial subject matter. We have in the past had a “your view” on the same topic and it was no where near as controversial as today’s list was.
I value the majority opinion of the readers here, and it is for that reason that the list is now removed. The majority of people were extremely unhappy with the list so it is now gone. I am sorry to those of you who were commenting when the list vanished – there is no way for me to remove a list without that risk.
In closing, I would just like to repeat: I am sorry.
Just paying the bills...
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November 11th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Ain’t your fault, honest mistake.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
What was the list about?, i know the tittle, but what did it was referring to?
November 11th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
what happened????
November 11th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Good call for deleting it.
It was controversial because it dealt with the issue of abortion.
We will not however, start the discussion again here.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Best not to ask, may start it up again
November 11th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Dont listen to those fucks, the one of us who had no problem is way higher then the ones that did. its just there the noisy ones. just ignore those fags, i really licked that list. you should do more.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
It was not your fault, Jafe. I say the fault lies with those who have nothing better to do at the computer than get angry. It’s like a rug. They gotta have their fix. At someone else’s expense, is the name of the game.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
like a drug, I meant to type.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
It is not an easy thing to apologize for something that you personally dont feel you have the wrong ideas about, I personally dont think I would be big enough to do this. So wow
But more importantly the ability to listen to the voices of your viewers and have their will be done though it is not always your own is an amazing quality to have.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
The numbers in the list were false, and the author admitted to falsifying information, and that he really only wanted to create the most controversial list. Or so I’ve been told. Assuming that is accurate, I imagine that that was a major factor in removing it, not just the angry comments. Although that would do it too.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Wow… whats the point even having this site, if you can’t post a whole bunch of controversial stuff? What a bunch of bitches…
November 11th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
It was a good list except for #1. It obviously had no place on that list and had you left it off there would have been little problem other than the number of native Americans murdered.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
@12
Do not go over all the arguments again, let it rest ffs.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
thank you.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
hear hear
November 11th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Thank you.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
jfrater, I had read the list before it was removed. I think that deleting it was the mistake, not posting it in the first place.
Lists, news reports, movies etc. that touch on the historical facts surrounding genocide and colonial occupation are always going to stir up controversy, mainly because many people don’t understand that by pointing out that colonising societies all but wiped out indigenous populations, a fact is being expressed instead of blame being apportioned to people who live in those settler societies. I live in Australia, and this country has a hard time recognising and acknowledging the historical and ongoing abuses committed against our Indigenous people.
Whether or not the numbers were out (and with Indigenous Australians, you underestimated by a couple of hundred thousand), this list was an important one for people to read, critique and discuss.
So, by removing this list, you may have stopped controversial statements being made in the comments, but you have also severed a rare avenue for meaningful debate and dialogue between people who agree and disagree. In essence, you have given in to the majority who unwilling to accept the historical reality of the atrocities people commit against one another based upon race.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
You better be sorry.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
@Dervis_khan (9): I think jfrater has always been pretty good to the readers. He has posted plenty of things he doesn’t agree with, keeping personal opinion out of his decision to publish. He also has replies to comments (as much as he can), both on the thread and off. For example, I submitted the scary roads list, but it was very short. But, rather than trash it (the submission form states that most lists with less than 10 items won’t make it), he added to it and published it. It was my first list, and a lot of people enjoyed it. He pretty much picked up my slack so I could be a contributor, and now i have another list published, this time on my own. Both were pretty well received, despite my not being too prominent on the site. At the risk of sounding like a kiss-ass, he is generally very fair and respectful towards his readers. Now that the jfrater worship is over
, I just want to say to jfrater: The website is impressive, it is popular with good reason, and your personal approach is one of the main factors. It quickly became one of my favorite websites, and I think I speak for the majority of the people here when I say you did a damn good job. The apology, really, was unnecessary, I think. But we appreciate it, and look forward to tomorrow’s list.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I often tell my students that in 100 years, the history books would deal with this topic in the exact way that this list layed it out. You’re just ahead of your time, JFrater.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
@16 There is no such thing as meaningful debate on the internet.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
@ Anonymous
Wise, wise words indeed.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Thank you for removing it. That was the first time I was actually disgusted by a list. I don’t blame you in the slightest for your actions. Shannon should be ashamed of himself for putting that in print.
You were right to pull it. Anyone who says otherwise, just wants to argue.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
repost it as a controversial list!
im interested now! haha
November 11th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
@Glass (17): shut the fuck up, glass. he said he was. leave it at that. no need for your “mightier than thou” pious bitchass self to be a dick.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
@lulu (16): Some of the facts were falsified.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
@ianz09 (18): Better words i could not have said myself.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
@lulu (16): The problem is that I think the debate was not meaningful – plus (as has been mentioned) there were factual errors. At some point in the future the list may be reworked and reposted (minus item 1). At present it will stay in the cupboard for a bit though I think
November 11th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
On a lighter note…love the freaking picture for this topic haha. I’m using that the next time someone gets mad at me.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
@ianz09 (18): Thanks ian – I appreciate the comment.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
@amazedperson (11): See: Archives, category: Controversial.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
leaving out #1 would be a dumb move.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
@jfrater (29): No problem, I appreciate the site.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
@Renegade (28): I really wanted to use a beaver holding flowers (so bucslim could mention beaver ass juice) but alas all I could find was a hamster. But he is cute nevertheless (the hamster – not bucslim).
November 11th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Ok so the list was about mass murders and genocide, so my guess is that who ever made the list put controversial stuff, like people who support abortion or something to that effect?.
And yes, there can be meaningful debate on the internet, the people just need to be meaningful
November 11th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
@jfrater (29): PS- Did I kiss your butt enough to win that iPod?
Joking. I already have one, like I’ve said. But about that book….
November 11th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I thought the list was very interesting and thought provoking. The fact that people were so infuriated by a list posted on a website that has no real ramifications is absurd. You handled #1 in what I thought was a responsible and mature way. Unfortunately, many readers did not interpret #1 in that same responisble and mature manner. You are not the one who should be apologizing, the readers who posted comments bashing someone’s given and rightful opinion should apologize. And this post is coming from someone whose under the firm belief that #1 is incorrect.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
@jfrater (33):
(It’s Renegade, didn’t realize I wasn’t logged in o.O) Haha that’s why they make photoshop! So you can put in a Beaver holding flowers and allow bucslim to have his comedic fun. Everyone goes down happy lol.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
#1 proves that there is nothing more dangerous than a human with permission.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
@renegade01 (37): Sadly my photoshopping skills are appalling – it would end up looking like an alien blob or some such thing!
November 11th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
i agree it should have been amended removing no. 1 (as it was just there to spark said controversy), there were other genocides and mass murderer times mentioned in the posts not dealing directly with abortion that could have been added, and maybe fixing the falsified info as well?
thats my two cents
besides the controversy (i only read the first 250 comments before getting bored and having to go to do other things) that the rest was pretty good and could be better if correct information
November 11th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
@jfrater (39): Then bucslim would have another thing to make fun of. Alien Ass Juice!
November 11th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
so….what I gather is that a bunch of self righteous trolls ruined today’s entry? i love the internet [/sarcasm].
November 11th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
I think the issue here is “The top 10 mass murders”… and some people think abortion is not murder in that it’s not an actual child yet… and then you get into the whole political debate… It’s all very messy.
Now i’m not going to even attempt a debate on the wrongs or rights of abortion, I’ll leave that to other people.
I’m just saying that whether i agree or not, i can understand why people got upset about that particular list.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
I wish I could have at least viewed this list. Even though it was apparently controversial, it sounded interesting, to say the least.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Whoa whoa, where did Twilight Zone go?
November 11th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
@ianz09 (45):
Into the Twilight Zone
November 11th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
That is so sad I think you should shut the site down so other pussies won’t get offended….
November 11th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
@ianz09 (45): It is still there…
November 11th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
That was definately less offensive than the Furries list.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I didnt get a chance to read the list because of work, but Iwas interested in reading it. THough if there were known factual errors I dont find it that appealing
November 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
@jfrater (48): Nope, it’s gone…
November 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
i dont think you should have removed the list ….. however i do think that it takes a big man to apologise for a mistake that was not entirely your fault, for that i commend you, keep up the good work and im looking forward to tomorrows lidt.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
i hope no one comes complainging about the torture of hamsters
November 11th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
@jfrater (48): Nah, not on my browser. I got medical quacks, then an apology.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
complaining*
November 11th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Hey @JFrater, fellow Kiwi here saying keep up the awesome work. Really love the site – these things happen mate. I don’t know what I’d do at work without ya! ;D
x
November 11th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
@szebutrans – I’m writing a strongly worded email to my local MP as we speak…
November 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Sorry – it is back – it happened when I edited it before! oops.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
It shouldn’t be deleted! How about FREE opinion without any bias, or if it has, nobody should care! If you don’t like then don’t read it! Keep up the good work man!
November 11th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
@ianz09 (54):
i’ve lost the “twilight zone” list too. weird.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
This website is not about pushing a political agenda. That’s one of the things that appeals to me. The list on mass murders felt like a heavy-handed attempt to further one person’s agenda and no amount of disclaimers by the author could change that. My gut reaction was to boycott the site entirely. I live in Utah, I get enough of other people’s agendas thrown at me every day.Please continue to be controversial. Don’t stop pushing the envelope. But do it for the entertainment value and leave personal politics aside.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
This site is not for the easily offended… I would truly like for you to put the list back up weed out the people that are easily offended… You have not taken down lists that have curse words and nudity and have to do with sexually explicit contents… People who are easily offended truly need to grow up…
November 11th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
@ Marcus — it was ‘killings’, not ‘murders’, there’s a world of difference, and although I think placing abortion at the top of the list was probably a strange propaganda attempt, it *is* technically ‘killing.’
If it was removed because the figures were way out, fair enough, but if it was removed because a vocal minority were offended, well, I can’t get behind that.
Someone else said it better, but I imagine the people who weren’t offended far outweighed the people who were, problem is, the people who were offended were kinda loud about it.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
@lo (60): Yeah, it’s back now though. By the way, got another list cooking up in case anyone is interested.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
It is too bad you let people dictate what you post… All the posts are in your opnion… So political or not it is YOU OPINION… It is not end all list… PLEASE POST THE LIST… Why cave in to the others??? Will they sue you hit you “murder” you???
November 11th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
this world is upside down
November 11th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
pff I am not fast thinking that something is wrong to say but after I saw #1 of that list…. But I think you should republish the list with out the #1 because the other numbers are all based one facts (x killed persons) there is no discussion about the rest. And if you say the holocaust did not happen you get jail time, and you deserve it.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
I’m very disappointed that the list was removed but it is your site your money so it’s your “choice” if you want to buckle under political correctness.
As it is my “choice” whether to view the site again or not or buy your book or not.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Jaime:
I was actually expecting you to pull the list… Not that I agree with the decision (I think you could have included Stalin and left the abortion as a “Controversial Bonus” so people would understand what was going on in the comments) but the list did have flawed “facts” so I guess its valid.
Anyway, I really look forward to seeing a reworking of that list. It was interesting and I think the comments could have been a good read had they not been hijacked by the abortion discussion.
In any case, I remain, as always, a fan.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
The snow love the word… “political correctness” I can’t stand it people who are plitically correct hmm don’t have a word for how much the offend me or simply annoy me… I truly think polical correctness will be the end of many things…
November 11th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Jfrater,
Thank you for this great site, and thank you for taking that list down.
When a list deals with such serious topics as genocide and war crimes I think that historical accuracy is that much more important. Although it was a great idea for a list, there were entirely too many historical errors in the list for it to be taken seriously. I think it should have been taken off for its inaccuracy alone, even without the controversial political statement.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I wish I couldve seen the list… controvertial sounds fun. my type of stuff, unlike some of the most recent lists… boring things.
I do think you should put it back up. isnt that what the internet is for? arguing. well, then again, I don’t know how bad the arguing got… but still. everyone has a right to express what they view on anything, and now that the list got taken away, some didn’t have that chance.
*shrug*
November 11th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
I thought the list was appropriate yet should have included the Stalinist Purges of the 1930s.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Aww who could resist that little adowable hamster picture?
November 11th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
@lo (14): Just so you know, I hate you. I was *this close to posting a whole, Randall-style rant at you, but then I refreshed, and *poof* the list was gone.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
I think it was best to remove the list. I have no problem with controversial lists which are clearly stated to be the author’s opinions; however, I feel that that particular list was presented as historical facts but in reality was a poorly researched piece of writing intended to stir controversy and/or promote the author’s opinion.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
I read that list and laughed. And then I read the comments and again I laughed.
I respect your decision Jamie and I trust your judgement. Funny pic too!
November 11th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Damn, I missed the list and the bitch fight that followed it. Oh well, C’est la vie
November 11th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Oh and I read the list using my phone browser which allows me to “save page”.
I can still read it, ppl, and laugh again
November 11th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
what was it post it just the list… not the reason…
November 11th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
i love this site, keeps me entertaind at work and when ive come inf rom a night out (now)
November 11th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
I think it’s ridiculous that people can’t be grown up and actually try to understand two sides to one subject. Morons.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
There was nothing wrong with your list, just because a bunch of people are offended doesn’t mean you nessacarily need to get rid of it. Personaly, I found it an interesting list.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
jayfray: i respect your judgment as you have led us this far and have enough of a following that people actually care what you put on here.
i would love to see the list put back up with the factual errors corrected. however, leave everything else.
if we have to avoid controversial topics for fear of offense where does that leave us? how can we have meaningful discussion? (which is what kept me around in the first place) if controversy needs to leave, you would need to remove all lists with nudity, cursing, violence, etc.
i am not in favor of that.
we have “progressed” to a point in today’s society where we believe our offense necessarily must be met with a change in someone else’s behavior. whatever happened to learning to live with people that are different than you?
the squeaky wheel got the grease on this one.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Thanks Jfrater.
Regardless of what people believed on the list, the factual errors definitely killed the credibility. Plus… who doesn’t love the Twilight Zine!
November 11th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
1) Personally, I don’t think you did anything wrong in posting the list in the first place. It was a list of facts that, though controversial to some, relate to events that actually happened. Unfortunately, your advertisers may not agree (Seriously, does anyone here actually LOOK at the ads? Don’t we all just skip over them?) and they pay for the site. Either way, I’ll stand by your decision, and thank you for a great site.
2) Didn’t you say somewhere that we can find the infamous suicide list on your website? Will this be there too?
November 11th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
And by Zine I mean Zone.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
It wasn’t the abortion thing that bothered me, it was mostly Shannon (or whatever his name was) and his lack of respect for the readers.
Did you see him challenging everyone? And he admitted to submitting falsified information JUST to get a response from everyone.
I was completely fine with everything else. No need to apologize
November 11th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
@Gus (66): I do have to think of the readers. I do always post my opinion (and I did on the deleted list as well) but if it is going to cause upset more than pleasure, it is defeating the purpose of the site for me.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
@rocknopera (67): Funny – I said the very same thing to someone earlier today!
November 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
I’m disappointed that the list was removed. However, I think that the inclusion of abortion as #1 didn’t make sense either, because while abortion is killing for sure, it isn’t the same TYPE of killing as anything else on the list. If the death penalty was on the list, that would at least be in the same realm. So the list was pretty poorly constructed. Nonetheless, I think it should just have been considered a crappily-written list, not something that needed to be removed or anything.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
I objected to the list. I did not give my opinion one way or the other on the inclusion of abortion. I objected because of the gross inaccuracies and sweeping statements in many items, the editing of the list criteria so that abortion fitted into it (the original wording could not justify its inclusion) and the later admission by the list author that it had been submitted, after only an hour’s research, to stir up controversy and generate comments and that he didn’t care that his facts were wrong. Now it seems that most people commenting here presume the list was deleted because of the abortion issue. That is far from true. It is a pity that the comments can no longer be read.
The list’s deletion is the right move to make.
I still have many many issues with the way the episode has been handled, but at least this is a step in the right direction.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
I hate that I missed the list & the shit storm that followed. But I’m sure no apology is needed
November 11th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
@Disc Huker (85): I agree with you for the most part. The particular topic has been dealt with on this site before and the outcome was fine – I think that perhaps the context may have been the issue – but we know that now and will endeavor to not have it happen again. That is not to say that I will avoid difficult subjects – I might just be more inclined to avoid them unless I am the author
November 11th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
@adrian(2): The list was about mass murders and one of the mass murders had the ever so touchy topic of abortion. The person who made the list made a few comments regarding abortion that offended a lot of people, therefore causing a lot of controversy, and forcing JFrater to remove it because things got a little rowdy.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
@Thomas (87): 2) no – that list will not go with the other one. It is better off buried for now. But as I said earlier, there might be a reworking of it in the future.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
@Jane (93): Honestly I couldn’t think of a more suitable way to deal with the situation. Unfortunately the majority of the commenting happened while I was in bed – if I had realized how inflamed things were getting I may have edited the list and replaced the number 1 item, but honestly – when I got to it this morning I couldn’t see any solution other than removing the whole thing.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Isn’t this website is about starting controversy not ending it. I’d leave the list up.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
I don’t think it was a mistake at all. The list was created with the intent of linking number one with the title of the list. Creating the association was underhanded and sullied the intent of this site.
I love Listverse. Removing it was the right move.
-Jim
November 11th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
I think you should repost the list as “Nine incidents of planned mass-murder” omitting number one.
Or, you could change it to eleven and include “The death penalty” as well, as by the logic of the author, the death penalty would qualify as “planned mass murder”, and would definitely have the largest death count of them all.
November 11th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
I missed the list and don’t know what the content was, but I do want to say one thing.
Everyone’s saying the list was controversial because it supported one political view, but it’s also personal. I don’t know what it said, but sounds like it was accusing women who got an abortion of murder. Now that is offensive, and not only to “sensitive” people.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
I agree that it wasn’t about it’s controversial matter so much as the author creating their own facts and just wanting to make a popular list. The #1 had no place on the list. Not because of what it entaled but rather, it didn’t follow the thought behind the other entries. In my opinion, it was even a bit shameful to put it there for the mere satisfaction of the author.
This site is smart and thought provoking. Sometimes the comments are more exciting than the lists. However, in this case I, myself, believe the site would have lost a bit of integrity in keeping it up. So kudos for pulling it.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
but the site is make arguments and YOUR opinion Well how about this post it under your view section the list… we can discuss it there… I found other lists offensive… (well I do not get offended) but found it just not sure… Just not a good list or of poor taste… I read it okay cool that is your view life goes on… If you were to buckle on every list that offends your readers then this site should no longer exsist. I truly do love your site I think it is great although I do not agree on many of your top 10 I love it I learned a lot and enjoy it every day… All I can ask is repost in another place if people want to be offended let them…. Now if it was factually inaccurate fix those facts… But leave the list the same it is your top ten no mine nor anyone elses… But once again I understand you try to please but you can’t please everyone… Plus controversy is great love it and well if people complain the have the choice of going somewhere else or starting their own list… However thanks for the response and… Hope you ight repost it somewhere else… As you can see I don’t spell check I am in a rush!
November 11th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
@jfrater (34):
“I really wanted to use a beaver holding flowers (so bucslim could mention beaver ass juice) but alas all I could find was a hamster. But he is cute nevertheless (the hamster – not bucslim).”
How did I evolve into the torch bearer for BAJ? I mean, I’ll go along with the second statement jamie, I do have a face like a tar and gravel roof, but somehow I’m the LV crier for all things BAJ?
November 11th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Good move JFrater the list sucked more ass than a certain chapter of “Haunted” but as I put in my list comment – it has great potential.
Your comment (97) said it well – a reworked version should be a future goal.
Keep up the goods!
November 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
You should not have to apologize. People are such whining babies. So you wrote a few mistakes. So what? People, stop getting so uptight. So the numbers were off. We have grammar police on the internet, now we have number police. So you included abortion, so what? People know they can always have sex for another one, so what’s the deal? This society is riddled with people who are so uptight. If they disagree with something, they start an argument. Yet they’re always whining that people don’t get along and that there’s no peace and no unity. They have to be the change, they have to turn the other cheek sometimes instead of whining about everything. Humans are supposed to be civilized, unlike the other forms of life on this planet. Well guess what? Humans are animals too, and it doesn’t look like we’re very civilized. Stop complaining. If you don’t agree with something, go on to something else.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Thought it was great list and especially appreciated that abortion was included. I am sorry you felt like you had to pull it. Peer pressure can be pretty hard to overcome.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Alright, I just have to know. Anyone willing to e-mail Me what they remembered about the list/comments? Don’t bring it up here, that just undermines the decision to delete it. But if anyone cares to help satisfy my curiosity: SarahP2584@gmail Thanks
November 11th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
me too please I would like to know what was on the list
elchurro4life@hotmail.com
Jfater if you can send it I would really appreciate it!!! I won’t complain I promise!!
November 11th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
oh by the way I just want the list don’t care much about the comments.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
@bucslim (105): You brought that upon yourself, I’m afraid.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
It’s ok, you meant well. The lists are meant to be informative and some topics will always produce a debate, argument, or some ill feelings. We know you meant no harm, you’ll find no blame here
November 11th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
The list had the wrong death rates and some pretty obvious omissions. Those alone should have had the list corrected or removed.
It also started off with a combative “disclaimer”. Then got to #1 and threw out the authors own criteria either to make a point or cause an argument. The context for #1 was all off.
The list was poorly done and should have been removed. With that said don’t remove a list just because it’s controversial. If you do that you may as well remove every list with the word top in the title. It could also bring it to the point where a few very vocal readers who don’t like a well done list to “force” you to remove it.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
People were unhappy because of the body count???
November 11th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
hey mr JFrater. i was wondering if you could send me the list. i am a big fan of your lists. i don’t get offended or uneasy like many viewers of this website and i am very curious about this list. if you have it saved somewhere could you send it to me? thank you in advance no matter the outcome. my email is spshadowfreak@hotmail.com
November 11th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
@Ray Naldo (115): they were upset because the author made up a lot of the body counts, it was just a plain badly written list
November 11th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
agreed with 114 all the way, could not have said it better.
And to those of you that did not read the list. whatev. It’s not that big of deal, just one persons view on abortion.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
No the list that was written badly and most offensive to me was the traffic one… It was aweful!!
November 11th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Okay, Jamie…
A) You have nothing to apologize for; you let somebody get by you who was trying to pull a fast one, but you’re human.
B) Nobody should be allowed to *use* this site for their own private little egotistical games or “social experiments.” I frankly still don’t get what “Shannon” was really up to, and honestly, I don’t think HE really knew, either. I think he just wanted to stir up shit, and I don’t believe he really knew what he was doing beyond that, but caught in a number of dumb errors and bad moves, he started coughing up all the nonsense he did. The more I challenged him on it, the more desperate he sounded, to my ears.
C) he clearly, however, had about zero respect for the audience here. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that there’s a lot of morons out there, many of which tune into this site. Many won’t shut up once they’re here. But I don’t take the attitude that I’m above others because they choose to join in on a controversy. And then, the way he tried to turn it into some “suffer the plagues of your neighbors” BS–which I don’t believe for a moment was *really* his intent at the first–well that just sealed it. The pretending to be two different people was freakin’ weird too. Bottomline is, he was contemptuous of everyone here and was playing a kind of sick game.
You can’t know what people are up to when they submit a list. To some extent, in opening this site up, you have to trust people. Sadly, once in a while somebody’s going to abuse that trust.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Another list that was removed was the suicide one… Another one I did not get a chance to read that one either… I might (just might) see how that might be a lot more controversial… However I would have liked to read that list… Jfrater if you have it could u e-mail it as well??
November 11th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
@Randall (120): Well said Randall. Where have you been?
November 11th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Good decision, thank you for that.
It s interesting how most opinions here now are supporting the topic, while before that there was a true flame war going on.
Anyhow, the list was too biased and represented wrong facts in favor for the poster of it. That s not how we re used to it here. The list needed to be removed.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
I am not surprised that the list was removed. Personally, I enjoyed reading it and had no problem with the other entries. I was on the fence about the number one spot, but obviously others had issues.
I have to say, though, that overall the list was well put-together and thought provoking.
Also: @jfrater (98): you shouldn’t have to apologize, but I understand why you did. Some people are a little hyper-sensitive and need their wounded “feelings” stroked. Good call.
November 11th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
That list was quite the roller coaster… I mean, the last I had checked, there was over 600 comments @1 p.m. To believe that all those comments came in less than one day should go down in Listverse history or something! It’s also nice to know that (most) of everyone’s opinion was expressed accordingly without a lot of hateful nonsense. Still, I’ve never seen everyone get so worked up and peeved over a list (whether it had a controversial subject included or not).
November 11th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
You shouldn’t have had to deleted it. If people can’t handle it, well, tough shit. Killings and murders are, unfortunately, something that really happens. Sorry that the real world isn’t sunshine and rainbows like their perfect little lives. Hate to break their bubble. Bad shit happens, whether we want it or not.
I hope you put the list back up as a reminder we shouldn’t be shamefully hiding or covering these events up. We can’t ignore it and getting it out there is a way to prevent it from happening int he future.
These same ignorant people whining about the list probably also deny the holocaust.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
If people can’t handle the fact that there are people like that, then maybe they should experience the services of one.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Aw, you should have kept it. If it was so controversial and you don’t want flames, just disable comments. The crime lists are my favorite part of the site.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Controversy makes the world go round. I don’t think that abortion is something that should be swept under the rug anymore. Get it out in the open because even though defining it as “murder” may be controversial, abortion does include “killing” of something. Be it human or not is something that needs to be discussed if not resolved.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
I saw the list, I considered it overtly political more than offensive, and I think that it was a good decision to remove it.
keep up the fantatsic work jfrater!
November 11th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Jfrater write an even more politcal list then the one that you removed… I want to see you set a record on comments in one day!!!
November 11th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
I liked the list, I was actually about to show it someone who is also a history buff like myself. It’s too bad you’re subject to sensitive people possibly boycotting your site. that is, for you and the rest of us who are not over-sensitive and would rather things NOT be censored.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
You know what I hate more than censorship? It’s being misinformed. And that is why I thank you jfrater for removing that list. Plus you saved me from apparently wasting a few hours reading meaningless comments based on that misinformation. Your apology was not necessary though you were a big enough man to have made one, however one from “shannon” is and he is apparently not.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
I must have missed something. I didn’t see anything “controversial” on the site.
Did Jfrater refer to abortion as murder? Uh…..well, unless a human female can give birth to rabbits or mice…….
November 11th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
@Some Guy in NEPA (134): You didn’t see it because he removed it. And JFrater didn’t refer to abortion as murder, the list’s author did. The apology was for publishing a faulty and incendiary list and then subsequently removing it. Although I don’t think an apology was owed, personally.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
You removed a list because it was offensive and caused controversy? Guess what, that’s life. I will no longer visit a site that cannot value others opinions and one that apologizes for posting the truth. Good riddance, listverse.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
@Sonja (136): We’ll miss you
November 11th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
If you get offended by a list you are a moron.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Alright people, look. The list was NOT removed because it was controversial. This site has plenty of controversial lists. Hell, go to the archives, scroll all the way to the bottom, and click through some of the Your View articles.
This is why the list was removed
1. The facts cited were not accurate.
2. The author used the list and this site as a pulpit to preach a political opinion. That is not allowed on the site, and JFrater slipped up and let it through.
3. The ensuing firestorm saw no civility. People from both sides attacked relentlessly. The list was a breeding ground for hostility. JF didn’t want his website tainted as a battleground.
Stop saying it was removed because people are afraid of controversy. This website is chock full of controversial lists.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
If the list has wrong information then it should be corrected, if a offends people, oh well stop reading it and go cry somewhere else. if a list is controversial than it is what attracts readers like me. and if a list offends some people, get a life is just a list do not let your little wimpy attitude towards the realities of life ruin it for the rest of us. bunch of cry babies.
Jfrater, you have an awesome site, what ever is posted here most of the time I do not agree with especially the American bashing stuff that goes on.
but still remains that I keep coming back to read the daily list.
I promise I will not be a little bitch and cry when I do not like something.
Semper Fi
November 11th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
It wasn’t offensive… the list was utter bullcrap, at least the #1 entry. Abortion isn’t mass murder, THAT was the problem, not that people are offended by certain views on abortion.
That is all.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
@ianz09 (139): finally, someone who gets it. WELL SAID.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Now that you explained it like that I am more understanding about removing the list… However I still want to see it.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
JFrater, your apology would make a top ten list of apologies IMO. Well done. It takes a lot to admit you were wrong or made a mistake, and then correct it. Although I wouldn’t really put the whole emphasis of blame on you.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
@Gus (143): It really wasn’t anything special, to tell the truth. It was mediocre at best, but political preaching and comments made it such an issue. Otherwise, it was a meh list, the writing wasn’t anything special.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
WELL, lookie here…
The list in question has been open in a tab in Firefox since I opened it originally 4 hours ago. Bidding starts at $10CAD
To close or not to close – that is the question.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
@kashmirj (146): People will now commence screaming for a copy-paste email of the list.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Jay, thanks for removing that list. I think it was the right decision on your part. Clearly you are a guy who will listen to reason and do what is best for the site regardless of personal opinion. I really respect that.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
As for abortion it is the point of view of the list maker… If you think abortion is mass murder it slowly creeping up on Communism which has killed over 100 million people in the years of it exsistence 70+… If abortion is not mass murder well that means the list maker disagrees with your opinon (boohoo)
November 11th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
i’m glad i read your page every morning, or i would’ve missed it! i honestly didn’t think it was a big deal and i don’t feel you owe anyone an apology! the list was from your view point, whether others agree or not, that’s their business, no one has to read it. it’s called free speech, i’m surprised so many people gave you a hard time.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
The list was like, spill the milk and wait for the dogs to lap it up.
As for El, he knew,’No crying over spilt milk’.
El always knew.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
@ ianz09 (139): Amen. It’s funny how many people forget about the “your view” part of this site, where we talked about controversy plenty of times.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Repost it dude. It’s your site, post want you want. If people have a problem tell the whingers to get the fuck off your site and go have a cry. Shit eating wankers, the lot of them.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
@El the erf (151): Priceless
November 11th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
For everything else there is mastercard
November 11th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
@Gus (149): The problem is that people don’t agree, and choose to express their opinions excessively. Most people were offended that this person used a pretty good choice of topic (mass murders) to bust out at the end with a political opinion on abortion. Abortion as item #10 would not have even caused as much of a stir. The problem is this: Genocide is is accepted as mass murder. Holocaust and Armenian genocide are indisputably accepted as murder (with the exception of the morons who think they never happened). However, the debate currently rages over whether or not abortion should be considered murder. To top off a list of murders with something that isn’t even considered by all to be murder, that is where the violent upheaval got its start. Like, topping off a list of Top Ten Whales with the killer whale. People will start bitching that no, it is actually a dolphin! Followed by no, it has the word whale in its name. Followed by, wait, both of you are right, because dolphins ARE whales! And since nobody can agree on what constitutes a proper whale, controversy ensues. An entire country side will be filled with peoples’ shit-brick castles, and the warring factions using them.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
S’okay, mistakes happen. Continue being awesome, dudes.
November 11th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
@bucslim (105): I just always seem to associate beaver ass juice with you – I know not why!
November 11th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Met a few people in my travels. None have had the brains/balls to do what you do. Please dont stop or apoligize. King has spoken!
November 11th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
@ianz09 (156): can i start selling the bricks please?????
$10 a brick, USD preferred
November 11th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Can u at least put the list back up with it ending at number 2??
November 11th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
For those who are interested, here is the your view on abortion which has 944 comments. That didn’t need taking down
November 11th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Ihave ienjoyed this wbsite for a good while now and have remained basically mute on any subject. jfrater.I like the lists you edit and produce.For those people who have nothing to do but critique his work,whatever.Life is too short,get one!
November 11th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
@ianz09 (122):
I was away for a few days with a friend of the female persuasion.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
I think it was the right decision, that list seemed like an odd blemish on such an awesome site.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
@Randall (164): Randall, how stupid do you think I am? Do not lie to me. You were cruising the Multiverse again, weren’t you? And is that… Is that opium I smell? You have some explaining to do, sir.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Holy crap i just read the apology. I just got in was gona read the days list and theres this. Was it super offensive?
November 11th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Shows what you miss when you don’t get here until 8:00 at night like me
November 11th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Thank you, Mr. Frater, for removing the list. As Randall and Ian put it, it was more than just the controversial nature of the abortion issue. I was actually more bored with seeing it YET again than feeling any other kind of emotion. It was the rest of it: the factual errors, the pretty bad writing here and there (I suppose it was an attempt at ‘insult humor’ but a pretty lame attempt at humor), and most of all, how the author handled the whole thing from writing of the list all the way to the writing of his comments… It was a mess through and through so I’m glad it was removed.
That aside…I’m a fair hand at photoshop and I found the perfect beaver! Unfortunately, Photoshop is on my old and currently-not-turning-on computer. The paint program on this laptop doesn’t cut it.
Apologies weren’t necessary from you, Jamie, but an apologetic hamster holding flowers (despite my preference for big animals) was certainly appreciated!
November 11th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
@ 168. Use a feed reader with permanent storage (Opera, Thunderbird, FeedDeamon, NewsFox) and run it all day set to check every 15 mins. You’ll never miss anything.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
im glad the list was removed the original submitter admitted that it was a ploy to get the most contraversial list on lv. thats always a bad move.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
I don’t see what the problem was. I thought it was a good list. I rolled my eyes a bit at #1, but I heard your point and was OK with it, even if I disagreed.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Thank you very much for removing the list, JFrater. It was an honest misjudgement on your part, you’re not really to blame – I however did find that list extremely offensive and upsetting. You accidentally alienated a whooollleee load of people there, for different reasons
As I said, though, not really your fault and the apology and removal makes everything happy again 
November 11th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
@ianz09 (166):
Haven’t touched the stuff since my days in the Punjab with Race Bannon.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
I didn’t see the list. I suppose I have to ask: Is this site purely entertainment or should it be more ?
I think it should be entertainment
Also, if you want to be controversial, check your facts.
Finally Abortion is not murder and it is not killing.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Honestly, I didn’t see a reason for removing the list other than the falsified information. While the topic may have been controversial, I think it’s fair to say that everyone visiting this site is capable of forming their own opinions, and should be capable of facing controversial topics without purely inflamatory comments. If the list was poorely written, then people have a right to think so, but that is easily remedied. Even if it was only meant to push a certain political view, those opposed to that view could have easily disputed it in the forums or in the places specifically intended for such discourse. Essentialy, everyone should be capable of th inking through for themself without screaming for blood.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Wow, I didn’t realize that list was going to cause so much debate! I briefly skimmed it this morning before heading off to school and the only explanation I actually read was the abortion one because it didn’t really fit in with the list. From skimming it I didn’t see he author as taking either side of the abortion debate, I thought he was pretty neutral on the issue, though I guess including it at all was an indication of the author’s opinion. Sorry to bring up the abortion thing again, definitely do not want to start that debate up, though I didn’t read the comments for the list so can’t say how heated it really was.
On a separate note, great job with the site jfrater!! Love the articles and just the way everything functions on here is very well organized, keep up the good work:)
November 11th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
long time lurker, first time poster.
wow people are REALLY sensitive these days. i wish i could’ve read the list
November 11th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Big deal, you upset the mothers that killed their children. Keep up the good work!
Oh, I almost forgot… Abortion is murder.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
OK..So the list was removed..anyways it was full of errors and inaccurate in many ways..but I’ve come upon the definite conclusion after a period of two years is that JFRater is PREJUDICED and BIASED against Muslims,Islam and anything that has to do with the glory of the Islamic history..while he does not hesitate to delete points and facts highlighting Muslims as victims etc.,he definitely time and again puts up some theory or pics portraying Muslims and Islamic countries in bad light.So sorry,but if that appeals to the majority anti-muslim american readers,do as you wish..it’s your site.
That’s just my personal opinion and I’ll be glad if you prove me wrong.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
You guys are all idiots. Who the fuck puts their time into debating someones opinion in an online chatroom.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
why is everyone so heated? get a life and live a little just take the list for what it is and stop complaining and being drama queens. Who needs babies anyway?
November 11th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
I think it’s about how people view the lists on this site. If you look at #1 being the “most” in a list then yeah, that list should have been taken down. But if you look at #1 as the “number-after-two” then the list shouldn’t have been taken down.
Especially that list. I don’t see how you can differentiate between which mass murder is the worst. In my eyes all the mass murders in history are equally inhuman and horrific. Hell! ANY murder (be it mass or singular)is terrible!
November 11th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Sorry some grammatical errors,please let them pass..
November 11th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
I agree with Davo. It’s your site. What’s the point of freedom of speech if you abdicate it when a majority of people seemingly disagree? If the rights of the individual are drowned out by the group, then the Constitution is meaningless.
After all, if we left it up to the populace, some things would still be here (like open slavery).
But, I do understand not wanting to antagonize your readership, no matter how unintentionally.
I’m sorry I missed the list. It sounds like it was thought provoking, at least.
I very much enjoy your site and visit it daily. You’re one of the rare bloggers: thoughtful, considerate, circumspect, articulate, interesting, interested and frankly, brave.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
@Fuck you all (181): You just did.
@Carole (175): It would be better not to start that up again.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Abortion, whether or not you agree with it, is not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent. As abortion is not unlawful in the United States, abortion is no more murder than killing an opponent on the battlefield is murder.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
im sure the list was deleted not because of the content or the comments it derived but because of the authors intent which was made clear by his comments.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
@Carole (175) Stop trying to justify the killing (tearing apart) of your child.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
1) its the internet, if you are offended, not only are you a fuckwit but you are also a moron as there is a CONVENIENTLY marked ‘X’ on the top right of your screen.
2) in a mass genocide list, abortion should be there, maybe not up there but…
3) …if you get offended at the killing of innocent unborn babies, you really got to question yourself.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
The PC police strike again. Good job, guys. Way to not force someone to subscribe to your viewpoint.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
And I believe that one day, likely not in any of our life times, history will shame the decades of allowing one class of people to kill another group as if a pest.
It is time for another underground railroad.
That is my legally protected speech.
November 11th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
starbuck (183) ; where is your evidence to make such a claim?
November 11th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
OH NO!! I wish I could see that list!
November 11th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
I find this list of comments offensive, can we have IT removed too?
November 11th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
@Stefan (193): I’ve been goin through this site for the past two years and the evidence is randomly distributed in various lists..you just have to go through some of them…and for that fact take this last list which was deleted,on #10 we had the crusades massacring the muslims,but apparently Jamie did not like that and he removed it when initially the list was posted.THE ONLY ENTRY THAT WAS DELETED AND NONE ELSE..when that sort of thing happens,it makes one wonder why that was not deemed as a proper choice and why ABORTION of all the things was given top spot even if there was no particular ranking.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Thats the problem with this site. Too politically correct, too unbiased. People like controversy. I think you made the mistake for removing the list.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
@gabi319 (169): I found the perfect beaver!
Do tell…
November 11th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
It was actually a good list, until the last entry. Maybe in the future you can put it back up with a different ending.. From now on, im always gonna wonder how many of these commenters are actually Shannon’s borderline personality alter ego trying to stir shit up again…
November 11th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
I’m pretty scared. This is the first list that I read that was deleted! Was it a comment that make you delete it?
November 11th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
It’s not about one single comment. The list was inaccurate, highly biased, disorganized, controversial, and in general just thoughtless. It could have been controversial without being outright wrong, but that wasn’t the case.
I’m glad the list was deleted because it was subpar. Then again, it’s unfortunate that so much shit happened before the list was removed.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
@Maggot (199):
Lol, funny story…
Around collegetime, I’m think it was Christmastime… a friend gave me a present. I don’t think he meant anything by it other than the fact that he didn’t know what to get me and figured a generic gift like a toy would be a safe bet. So when it’s time to open presents, I unload the giftbag full of tissue paper and yank out A BEAVER, lol. AND not only was it a beaver, but there was a switch that would make it vibrate! LOL, my innocent-minded young friend just gifted me a toy chock-full of sexual innuendo. He turned beet-red when the rest of us clued him in on what we thought of the toy.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
@betterthantheoriginalwally (106): Good move JFrater the list sucked more ass than a certain chapter of “Haunted”
HA! That made me laugh out loud. Literally.
Anyway, good move, J.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
No need to apologize, abortion is mass murder.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
@Carole (175)
“Finally Abortion is not murder and it is not killing.”
Wow, so science has finally pinpointed the exact moment at which a human life is created? Please enlighten us further. Is it 28 weeks? 36 weeks? Or not until the third toe on the left foot exits the vagina?
What is “life” to you anyway? Must you have a certain IQ to be considered “alive”? Must you have certain physical traits or social skills? I’m really curious because to me if it has a heartbeat, a human form, feels pain and reacts to stimuli then I have a hard time saying it’s “a clump of cells”. Aren’t we all just clumps of cells after all? Until science can prove the exact moment when life begins, then I have a hard time believing abortion isn’t murder.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
@antipatros (186): So, you define abortion as non-murder due to its legality in the United States. Does this bit of linguistic limbo apply universally to all eras and cultures? For example, discrimination against the Jews under Aryanization Law was perfectly legal, as was the killing (not murder, according to your definition) of over 100 Jews and the arrest of 30,000 more during the Kristallnacht riots. The killing (whoops, almost said murder again) of “undesirables” such as Gypsies, Homosexuals, Jews, and the physically and mentally disabled was also legal during Hitler’s execrable reign. Come to think of it, weren’t many of the infamous Native American massacres (Wounded Knee, Marias, etc.) conducted by federal troops? I can only assume that since your definition of murder flows and originates from its legal usage, then you will be a staunch anti-abortionist should it ever become illegal in this country.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Guys…if you want to continue this, frankly pointless, debate about abortion do it in the topic that’s entire PURPOSE is discussing abortion. This wasn’t created so you could continue to debate. It was created so Jamie could apologize. Enough about abortion.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
You know, you really don’t need abortion. There’s another word that’s only two letters away from abortion. It’s a wonderful thing called adoption.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Crap! I’m continuing the debate, aren’t I? Sorry!
November 11th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
@ Miss Info 200
Swear to God none of them have been me, boss-lady. I didn’t even know this list was up until ten minutes ago. I’ve been out with my wife to the local coffee shop for a pumpkin spice latte. I just found out about this myself.
Promise. You can have JF check. He’s got all the email addresses to cross-reference.
I don’t mind getting fried for what I do, but it’s not me this time.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Whoops! I am happy that the list was deleted MAINLY because the author seemed to be a shameless,arrogant cretin.
AND for the abortion debate,sorry ladies but except for cases like rape,health problems etc etc,supporting abortion is akin to trying to justify promiscuous behavior,adultery and purging out the guilty feeling of immoral behavior.That’s what I think it is.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
@alex (198): Facts shouldn’t be distorted for the sake of creating controversy. That’s just a bad idea.
November 11th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (76):
you’re welcome to hate anyone you like, but the vast majority of the commenters agreed with me that that number one belonged on a different type of list and had been included for the wrong reasons.
throw in the fact that the list author flat-out admitted to me, twice, that he PURPOSELY wrote the list not to inspire debate or thought but to incite hate filled fighting -of a partisan, “tribal”, or “nationalistic” flavor- because his stated and open end-goal was to have the most commented on “controversial list ever” to boost his own ego! then he admitted that he was way too cowardly to ever even raise these topics in the real world, but would do it here under the safe veil of anonymity because he was in fact “an ass” and wanted to stir the shit. the list should have been pulled for these reason alone, LV is not the author’s personal mental masturbatory aid…..
then add that the list had factual errors in the numbers, and that the author again admitted to not even caring about, because his intent was not to inform but to incense, and the list pretty much NEEDED to be pulled.
if you want to side with that kind of hateful ego-stroking over all the other lists here, well that’s your choice, but it certainly doesn’t speak very well for your character -standing with someone willing to play lose with facts because all they care about it starting a virtual riot because doing so makes them feel powerful- makes you seem pretty hate-able yourself.
and, simply saying “i hate you” adds zero of use the the discussion, it is a waste of space, which probably also applies to the speaker……..
November 11th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
@bucslim (105): When did you guys start using BAJ as an inside joke anyway? I know where you got it from, but I skimmed the comments and didn’t see anyone actually saying ‘BAJ.’
November 11th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
@jclayton9 (20):
I agree except that it will be less time than that – more like 25 – 50 years. Technology is showing what is really happening and eventually it will not be tolerated.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
@Shannon (211): Not a lady.. And I honestly cant wait for your next list…
November 11th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
jfrater: you should republish the list (the topic was very interesting!) but YOU should rewrite, and maybe take some people’s suggestions on other [events] that could be added!
thanks for listening to your readers, btw! we really appreciate it.
you’re a good man.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Oops! There goes the First Amendment…
Controversial though the list arguably was, removing it simply gives voice to those who vociferously decry the sentiments expressed without providing an articulate response. If we deny such expression by the sole virtue of listening to those that merely shout the loudest, we abrogate our inherent right to engage in such debate. Therein lies the road to totalitarianism and the fascist state.
Of course, there are some who would argue that we’re already there!
=:~)
November 11th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Lo, that’s one of the longest troll comments I’ve read anywhere. It might be a part of a future list of some sort.
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I extend my deepest gratitude, admiration and profound respect to all of America’s veterans, for they are true freedom fighters of enormous honor and power, on this Veteran’s Day of 2009.
Thank you all, for literally, everything.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
No worries, it can happen to the best of us.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
OH MY GOD AND EVERYONE STFU ABOUT ABORTION ALREADY; DON’T MAKE HIM DELETE THIS TOO
November 11th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
@ianz09 (166):
Ah no…that would be me..not Randall. I apologize.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Okay so as a dawn of time reader of this site, I’d like to know whether it was taken down because of the controversial subject or because the list writer purposefully changed the “death count”.. I need to know.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
@lo (214): I don’t hate you because I disagree with you, I hate you because you’re an a$$hole. I didn’t like the list either, but I still dislike you. I also hate the writer of the list, and do not agree with him on anything but the abortion debate(even then I still disagree with some things).
November 11th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
All these comments made me really curious. Guess i’ll never know huh?
November 11th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
214 Io
Well, FWIW, I don’t hate you. I may be an asshole or, as Randy put it, a “sanctimonious twit (or was it ‘twat?’)” but I’m not a hate-filled ass-twit
Just your garden variety narcissistic shit-stirrer who didn’t get enough attention as a child. Nothing special really. But, you know, sticks and stones and all.
217 Miss_Info
Not a LADY or not a FEMALE?
Where I’m from, it’s two different things
November 11th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
the list was so freaking good, even after getting deleted the debate continues
November 11th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Don’t be sorry. You published a list that you thought would be interesting. Your only fault was not appreciating the fact that putting abortion as number one would polarise your readership as much as it did.
It was a brave decision to publish the list as you did. If I were in your place I would probably would not have included abortion at all, but I don’t subscribe to Listverse just because you agree with my world view.
It takes backbone to admit that you made a mistake and for that alone I applaud you.
You’re doing a fantastic job. Keep it up.
Paul.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
I was in mid angry statement when the list went away… And now I have to come over to the other side and say thanks for the apology and I have MORE respect for you for that then anger/annoyance at the list.
Thanks bud…good CHOICE.
J
November 11th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
I think you should repost the list. Youre limiting your own freedom of speech. Yeah it would suck to lose a few viewers but trust me i know loads of people that look at Listverse and I show it to people all the time. If anything the more controversial your lists are the more people will look at them. ESPECIALLY if they hate it or disagree with it. I never actually got to see the list but i would tell you to reconsider and really think through the list and when its what you REALLY feel then repost it. Dont let other people’s opinions limit your message. It your website dude. You start being too sensitive and limiting your lists then they’ll start getting more and more boring. Soon youll be limiting so many taboo topics <—very lame. The decision is yours of course, but I'm sure that if you look back on your experience with this website do you want to feel like you REALLY showed the world what you are about? I can tell from reading these lists that youre a very educated person and your personality comes out in your descriptions of everything on this website. Dont keep other people happy keep yourself happy. That doesnt mean you have to go crazy and start putting up insanely grotesque photos or putting a sarcastic and heartless spin on everything but stay true to what you believe and post opinions you want to share with the world.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
@Ignatius (220):
no, you idiot, it’s not a troll post, it’s what actually happened based on the intro (both versions), the list’s content, and the author’s own comments.
if you’d read the damn thing you’d know that. perhaps you noticed that ianz09, randall, and others who READ THE THING agreed with me above. you’re pathetic.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
JF one little fuck up does not make anyone think of you any less. We are all human and we owe this great site to you. Now go have a damn fine day just to spite the haters.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
abortion happens all over the world though and just running away and not talking about the issue doesnt mean its not there. In China people have abortions all the time. It is not uncommon AT ALL there. And most of the babies aborted are girls, so much that in the future there will be an inbalance of men to women which will really hurt the countries growing population. For thousands of years people have been killing children and babies. Hansel and Gretal
November 11th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
I don’t want to start a debate again (and I have not read through all of the comments, so there may be one), but although the list was controversial, and I was kind of shocked with number one, but I still respected Jamie’s opinion. I’m kind of on the fence of whether in the end it should have been taken down or not, but what’s done is done. I still think Jamie should make the list available somewhere else, much like he did with the controversial Suicide list. Some people probably want to read it still, or re-read it.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
And so listverse succumbs to pressure…
What’s wrong, listverse couldn’t handle healthy debates in the comments’ section? All just because of a measly little item No. 1?
Moreover, the title of the deleted list was TARGETED – MASS – KILLINGS. The list went on to provide ten samples of TARGETED – MASS – KILLINGS throughout history.
Simply put, the author was TECHNICALLY CORRECT on the title he gave to his list.
I wouldn’t have titled it any other way. Murder, manslaughter, homicide – bah, those are all just legal poppycock.
The fact remains that abortion contains all three elements.
Targeted – check! (you kill off the fetus without killing off the mother, that’s about as precise and targeted as you can get)
Mass – check! (no need to spout statistics here, it’s a given)
Killings – check! (abortion, no matter how much you sugarcoat it, is still a killing)
One more thing, that controversial list is about humans, so human fetuses – which are either humans already or can and will become one if not aborted – are included. Killing of weeds, pigs, lobsters, germs, etc. (which got cited by some commenters of that controversial list) cannot be included because they deserve a separate list.
In short, the sparks should have been allowed to continue flying. Sadly, the ten targeted mass killings list degenerated into a painful ad hominem argumentation which prevented further healthy debates and exchange of ideas regarding the list.
I do not know if there has been misinformation involved. I wasn’t able to reread the list coz it got deleted. Maybe some of the facts had indeed been way off. But nothing’s perfect. And this shouldn’t have detracted from the fact that the author was nevertheless a knowledgeable man and that his list was for the most part informative and can be verified.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
I think you should repost the list and let the debate flow.
There is nothing wrong with discussing controversial topics even if the debate gets a tad heated at times.
We should try to talk things out.
I suspect I know what the controversy was about and I’ve always believed that if we could get past the rhetoric, we might be surprised that there is a lot more commonality than most people think.
Republish the list.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
I had read the list but hadn’t gone through any of the comments because I was in a hurry. Didn’t know there was such a big debate on it. But, yes, I was a little shocked at no.1. I didn’t see that coming at all.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
I honestly don’t know why people who didn’t read the list or the posts in the thread, are commenting that the list should be re-posted. Its like me going to your household, without any knowledge of you or your life, and telling you how you should be living. If you have no experience nor no knowledge on something then your opinion is void.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Wow, I missed a lot today…
I’ll say one thing about the douchebag who wrote the list – if he was looking to stir the shit, then he sure as hell stirred it.
Without going into the issue of abortion, I agree with Mr Frater’s decision to pull the list – if it ain’t true then it don’t belong on a reputable site like this one.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
I personally didn’t read the list, I must have just missed it, but I don’t believe you should have had to take it off just because it pissed some people off. This is YOUR website, and criticism from others shouldn’t dictate what content you post. If you thought the list was important enough to write and publish, then that’s what matters. I’m so sick of people who have nothing better to do than bitch at others. The titles of lists are clearly posted before you read them, so people should learn some self control and not read things they think might offend them. Seriously. We’re not your mother’s or your babysitters. Grow up and get your own lives.
Anyway, like I said, it’s your site, put up what you want.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
@ianz09 (166): Hey man you changed your pose..woo hoo!
November 11th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
@Ashton (241):
Read the posts on this thread and then you will know the reasons why it was pulled. And JFrater didn’t write the list…
November 11th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
@lo (232): ROFL! Oh, I’m sooooo hurt. You’re a moron.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Never saw the list, disappointed I didnt. But I say JFrater you shouldnt let people bully you into removing lists. Add a disclaimer maybe but dont make the mistake of thinking the overly vocal minority represents the majority.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Repost
Every time you masturbate you kill thousands of potential humans.
new #1 – Wacking it
November 11th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
You did what you thought was right. I suppport your decision. Period. The end.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
I would of liked to have read it..
Someone, somewhere will always be offended by something and complain.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
@Randall (174): I’m going to Google your reference later. Consider this is a preemptive lol: LOL. I will revoke it as needed.
Anyway. Ok, so maybe you didn’t partake in opium abuse. But you wreak strongly of cat urine and a dead hooker, and I’ll be DAMNED if I don’t know exactly what that smells like. I’d also appreciate an explanation for the body I found in my trunk.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
@Geronimo1618 (241): Yeah, now I’m twice as much of a badass! I’ll be back on later guys, I’m gonna go do sit ups ’til I poop myself.
*Does one sit up*
ianz09 trying not to be nerdy = FAIL
November 11th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Drop kick your bifocals if you are offended, do not read it!! It is that simple. I am offended that I did not get to read the list b/c of some whiney conservatives.
I know what would make the complainers happy do the next list on the top 10 best hearing aids.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Drop kick your bifocals if you are offended, do not read it!! It is that simple. I am offended that I did not get to read the list b/c of some whiney conservatives.
I know what would make the complainers happy do the next list on the top 10 best hearing aids on the market. Or the best ortopedic shoes that come in extra wide sizes.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Top ten—top ten lists for the complainers:
10- Top 10 ways to cover up a fart
9- 10 Best foods for constapation
8- Top ten bible verses
7- Top ten ways to remove a bunion
6- 10 ways to wake it up
5- Top 10 ways to be annoying
4- Top ten ways to be fugly
3- Top ten ways to make the cat lick your toes
2- Top ten Opra episodes
1- 10 ways to sit on it and rotate
November 11th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Starbuck–what? I do not agree with you Jafar is un bias when it comes to religion- Not everyone believes in your religion.
Top ten—top ten lists for the complainers:
10- Top 10 ways to cover up a fart
9- 10 Best foods for constapation
8- Top ten bible verses
7- Top ten ways to remove a bunion
6- 10 ways to wake it up
5- Top 10 ways to be annoying
4- Top ten ways to be fugly
3- Top ten ways to make the cat lick your toes
2- Top ten Opra episodes
1- 10 ways to sit on it and rotate
November 11th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
Good decision, jfrater. Now back to some great lists!
November 11th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Woops sorry about the doubles- I did not see it post the first time.
PS- my name is hot Carl, and don’t you forget it.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
what’s with all the people who didn’t read the list (or apparently any of these comments about what happened) having super-strong-yet-utterly-misinformed-opinions about it?
it was more complicated than “whiney conservatives [wtf?}" or "complainers [again, no.]“.
would you also review a book you didn’t read and a film you’d never watched? give an “eye-witness” interview about something you didn’t personally witness?
-oh, you would? i guess that explains it…………
November 11th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
How many times do so many people who read the list need to say that it wasn’t the placing of abortion at #1 that was the issue?
Not only was the list grossly inaccurate (just one example – stating that hundreds of millions of Native Americans were killed, making the total more than live in the US currently)and it made very sweeping statements (eg: that the casinos on Native American land were a fitting revenge for those killings as was the supply of cocaine by South America was revenge for the killing of the native population by the conquistadors).
The original criteria for the list was altered to better fit abortion into the equation. Unfortunately I didn’t keep a copy of the original posting, but it was noticed by several commentators. There was absolutely no way the inclusion of abortion was justified under the original criteria as stated by the list writer. There was also an inclusion of Catholics in the list of groups targeted by the Nazis. When this was queried (given that over 50% of Germans were Catholic at the start of WW2) the list writer informed us that he had not included that – it was an addition by jfrater. He posted a copy of his original list, with the #10 spot being the Crusades, in which he made some reference to the millions killed by Christians. This item was removed by jfrater and replaced by #3 – the Killing Fields of Cambodia (a worthy inclusion, but the Crusades should certainly have remained). I hate to say that this change does give some credence to the comments @180.
The writer (Shannon) then explained that he wrote the list to see how many comments he could generate and that he didn’t care about the inaccuracies, just the controversy it caused. He claimed to be an ex-history teacher and yet his facts were so poor that a school student could easily see the mistakes.
My objection to the list wasn’t based on the inclusion of abortion. It was the editing of the list by jfrater, both before publication and after. He did not let it ’slip through’ – quite the opposite. He also used the comments to inflame the pro/anti abortion issue, turning it into a far more acrimonious debate than before he commented.
I no longer trust this site. If jfrater edits lists to suit his own personal agenda, who knows how changed any list submitted will be.
Yes, I still have a copy of the edited list. I read comments 1 through 400 before going to bed. I will not give a pro or anti abortion opinion. I was pleased by the removal of the list and was prepared to let the brief apology stand without anything but a general comment (@93), but the continual request to have the list restored have prompted this rather long reply. There were very valid reasons for the list’s removal – perhaps jfrater didn’t want to admit to them?
November 11th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
@Brucemcgoose is loose (250):
It wasn’t the conservatives that were being whiney o.O; It was everyone. The issue wasn’t the controversial topic. The issue was that the facts were wrong in the list and the controversial subject didn’t belong. On top of that it was just a stupid addition by the list writer with the intent to cause flaming. Don’t start barking nonsense until you know the facts.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
I dont think the list should have been deleted, maybe just substituted number 1, because it had no real basis in being there…it was a decent list all in all. And it was written for controversy! You could just tell by Shannon’s tone of words. Oh yea, and i’m Pro-choice!!!!
November 11th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
@Starbuck (180): Perhaps you missed my publication of this list: Top 10 Misconceptions About Islam.
I still receive at least one thank you a week for that list as well as numerous requests to re-publish it elsewhere (which I always permit).
November 11th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
I have no problem with controversy or with a list-writer’s slant. However, I do expect a level of scholarship and balance. The person who posted the deleted list simply embarrassed herself with numerous faux disclaimers at the onset of her list (always a sure sign of a ham-handed piece of agitprop to follow) and then posted a list with numerous factual errors which she later admitted in her responses were essentially made up. And in the end it was all simply a setup for her to make a point about abortion. It’s sad for those who might agree with her, simply because it detracts from one’s position when one attempts to win converts via misleading and false information.
I applaud Mr. Frater’s choice to exercise a measure of quality control over his website. I encourage him to post two lists in the near future: 10 reasons pro and con regarding abortion. Allow someone from each side who can shape reasonable and mature debate to create a list for intelligent readers to ponder.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
this is bull
November 11th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
I think the episode where there was a monster in the wing of the airplane was best. I even liked the movie version where John Lithgow played the part of William Shatner’s character.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
As I said in the comments section of the deleted list, for me it wasn’t about the issue of abortion. It was the execution of the list itself. The list parameters which the author set out and the format of the list were manipulated in such a way that one would infer that there was a hidden agenda to portray abortion in a negative light. The list was written in chronological order to place abortion at #1 which I found was extremely odd as it would have been more appropriate to order it by body count. The author says that his/her list is not about pro-life/pro-choice or a statement about morality, however the author’s portrayal of the list suggested otherwise. I found this very dishonest and criticised it so. From the comments I read, there weren’t cries of taking down the article. However, alot of the discussion was on the factual accuracy of the list as well as the legitimacy of abortion being on the list.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
are you serious??? I can understand taking down the list if your information was inaccurate (it would’ve been wiser to just *ALTER* the list and put an update about it), but if you’re taking it down due to the controversy over your #1 pick, then that’s COMPLETELY absurd!
That topic will *forever* cause controversy. You can’t even FATHOM trying to please all sides of the issue. So why are you going along with the ones who had a problem with it? I love this site, and it’s sad to see a list being taken down due to some people’s “opinion”. You knew that this would spark crazy comments, but you posted it anyways… why change your mind now? I say post it back up.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
it’s the american way of thinking, if something bad is said, delete it, bad idea, just keep it there, let the people decide what is good and what is bad, when i read “the” list, i wasn’t shocked, neither by the # 1
November 11th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
@JF: Listverse is legen-cover your ears if you’re lactose intolerant-dary. I’ve been following it since its infancy and I’ve read most of the lists multiple times. You do an excellent job providing informative and interesting material for the internets on a daily basis. Your presence in the comment section shows your commitment to this site.
I don’t think you were required to apologise but it was very humbling that you took responsibility of the situation. The readers here who commented about boycotting Listverse or have hurled abuse at you need to reflect upon their actions. Quit being immature guys.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
There is never any reason to remove a list unless the sponsors have a problem with it. I did not have a chance to read this list in question, but I gather the problem was a right-wing slant on abortion(not sure about this, just read comments at random). If this is true, you should have left it up…I am a die-hard liberal, but I enjoy debate, and would have greatly enjoyed the debate the list would have caused. That being said, Jfrater, your site, your rules, keep up the good work, love your lists.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
i don’t get why you have to delete that list
i don’t know how light americans take abortion, but to me (not an american), abortion is in fact immoral and most things that causes abortion is also immoral, be it unsafe sex, underaged pregnancy, casual sex or whatever…
to me, abortion has all the reasons to be placed number 1 on that list and to be portrayed as an immoral, irresponsible act
having the right to create life doesn’t mean you have the right to destroy it
November 11th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
@starbuck (180) as jfrater pointed out, he DID dedicate a whole list to your religion in which he APPARENTLY is biased upon…
so goodbye to that argument !!!
November 11th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
i commend you for your decision to delete the previous list, Jay Fray.
as you know, i consider myself one of the semi-original cast around here (i started following LV just a few short months after it started) and i usually comment a bit…
but that list, well, there was enough already said & i felt it redundant to repeat what other posters had said.
the real reason the list was deleted was less due to the controversy and more to the context-the topic of abortion is a delicate one, and having it be the #1 ranking in a list about mass-killings, in the same list that featured genocide, cultural cleansing, and other abominations, was completely out of context. there is an enorous ocean of difference between the pre-meditated elimination of an entire group of people based on their religion, culture, or race than there is the highly personal, and always individual, choice of a woman to terminate a pregnancy. rarely does a woman have an army of soldiers support her in her “fight” to liberate her womb of an unwanted fetus…
that being said, i am not lying now, i love you, jay, more than before! you have never lacked for good judgement…
and if i am correct, there was another list deleted a year ago or so…one about suicide…
November 11th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
TOTALLY agree with Amethyst Slinky.
I’m glad I check this site nearly every day and read each new list pretty much as soon as it’s up, because I’d have hated to miss this one. I spent another two or three hours looking up some of the events that I didn’t know much about.
I’m really disappointed that you felt the need to take it down.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:00 am
@chas(218):”Of course, there are some who would argue that we’re already there!”
And, of course, we would call such people ‘morons’.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:06 am
With the gross inaccuracies and factual errors on the list, Shannon’s repeated taunting and lack of respect for the readers (“He who angers you controls you” HAHA), and the controversial decision for number one, I’m glad the list got pulled.
I would like to see a cleaned up version of the list, with its historical inaccuracies cleared up, and the choice for number one replaced. It was a pity that the argument surrounded the issue of abortion when the other atrocities mentioned were equally horrifying.
Also it’s funny to see people who were not even around to see the list getting riled up over the people who were riled up over the list, and saying that’s bullshit that they were. And those people who are saying it’s the Internet, don’t bother arguing or getting mad, yet there they are arguing and getting mad in the comments themselves.
@240 Ashton JFrater didn’t write the list, Shannon did.
@ianz09 The example of the Top Ten Whales was hilarious!
November 12th, 2009 at 12:19 am
Shut Up Bernard McSmeg
November 12th, 2009 at 12:31 am
thank you, some of the lists lately have been of dubious quality (10 extreme music genres for example lol) but i have still ever faithfully read the lists each day.
Yesterdays list however was offensive on a most personal of levels and had me considering wether this site was worth the visit anymore as it had gone from fun informative and educational to insulting biased and inaccurate.
You have a fantasic format (and following!) here and its nice to see that you do have enough respect for us all to admit and remove a mistake.
well done my faith in you is restored lol
November 12th, 2009 at 12:39 am
Thank you for the apology. I don’t blame anyone for posting the list, I just worry that political agendas may be being pursued under the guise of content.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:47 am
Dont delete this cause I havent read all the comments yet and I really want to. I have a headache right now though. Long day.
I just want to say…I dont know all that happened but im a christian and ALOT of the stuff on this list goes against what I believe and some of it can be offensive but offense is a character defect. Its people who dont know how to properly communicate what they feel and often its people who dont understand they have the power to turn around and walk off. I hesitate at times to call my self a christian because of the dumb ones lurking around trying to start crap. Anyway. thats all i have to say…..this 10 seconds.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:50 am
What? Something that makes the 29 year old mothers go “woo!”? That’s bad let’s remove it! Really annoying move Jfrater. I remember a while back a list came out that was related to another list from like 9 days ago and because it was too much the “same” you removed it. Stop man. Don’t let a bunch of whiny pricks tell you to do what you have to do. It’s YOUR job. Disable the comments or something or just tell everyone to go cry a river. Why can’t we post something that isn’t Top 10 ways to make your wife’s bosom feel happy on a honey moon, oh whoopie! =_= Sorry for the rage.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:01 am
@jfrater (260): No sir,I did not miss it..that was a one-off case as i perceive.Anyways, I’m not going to complain anymore..no point in grumbling or grouching,let’s get on with life.Do what YOU feel is correct.Good luck.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:07 am
I really want to read it now
I like controversial lists
November 12th, 2009 at 1:11 am
Honestly I’d like the list to be reposted.
It’s not your fault that people have to bring in politics, act like children and generally make asses of themselves.
Censorship is slavery, self-censorship is especially dangerous because it means that you’re stopping your own thought process: language is thought, censoring what you yourself say is limiting your own capacity for thought because of the political biases of others. It’s not only dangerous it’s morally wrong.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:11 am
i really cant understand people that complain about this sort of stuff, its like people complaining about tv shows after they have watched it….dont fucking watch it if your likely to be offended!!! i personally thought the mass killing list was one of the best youve done…i learned alot i didnt know before. so i say we campaign to get it back on, you cannot surpress free speech so if people are going to be offended then dont. read. the. list.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:29 am
@Dan (282):
are y’all just dense? “shannon” the LIST AUTHOR brought in politics when he stated that his entire intention was not to draw attention to the horror of mass killings around the globe throughout time, but instead to purposefully write “the most controversial and commented on list ever” because
-shannon
he did not have the intent to inform and cause reflective debate. he WANTED to start a bunch of fights over as he said “tribal and national” issues [from the intro version 2] and yes abortion too [from the list].
LV should be (and has been in the past) about making people think, or be entertained, maybe have impassioned but sincere debates over the actual substance of the list, NOT about purposely being controversial for the sole purpose of starting flame wars so the list author -who this time wasn’t jfrater himself (although jamie did add comments and maybe the intro[s]….)- can say “look at all the shit i started! most comments ever! go me!”
this aspect was a bigger problem than how people personally feel about abortion. and yes, adding abortion as “#1″ over all the other massacres and genocides in history may have been the author’s (and/or jamie’s) further attempt to get people to fight, just so shannon could feel powerful.
essentially the entire list was one big troll, and contained factually incorrect numbers and other statements in the non-abortion entries. THAT is what was wrong with the list, not just that someone had an opinion on abortion, sheesh.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:30 am
WHAT!!! i had an interview yesterday and didn’t get to see it.
you shouldn’t have to apologise, if people dont want to read it then they dont have too. this is the internet, why is there so much filtering and censoring.
its YOUR site.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:34 am
@allhypocrites (107): this sounds like the work of Shannon
November 12th, 2009 at 1:36 am
p.s. as jfrater noted up top, the “your view: abortion….” has been up over a year and you can add to it right now if you want, so it’s not like the site as a whole censors anyone’s ideas on that most contentious topic.
this wasn’t “censorship”. the list was flawed and jaime was man enough to listen to the overwhelming reader response, because he actually cares about his site and its “community”. the end.
and thank you again for the apology jaime, i don’t expect you to change your personal views ever or at all, but showing an awareness of the readership is very respectful, so thanks. and i am sorry i was so angry at you personally, as we all know it’s a hot-button issue that seems to bring out less-than-the-best in most of us. please accept my own apology.
-lo
November 12th, 2009 at 1:37 am
It seems that no matter how many times someone explains the reasons why the list was removed, everyone keeps going back to the abortion debate. And it’s not us ‘mommies’ getting upset (I am five months pregnant myself), it was everyone. The whole list was a mess. Sure, clean it up and fit the criteria specifically the next time around, then re-post it. I personally didn’t care about the fact that #1 was abortion, just how completely and utterly out of place it seemed. Again, if the list were cleaned up and rationalized, maybe I wouldn’t care even more. However I think Shannon should be put in a permanent time out. Gag order, unless he can be objective next time.
…cocaine and casinos…that still makes me snigger at the stupidity.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:40 am
infact, balls to this, im so angry with you J that im going to post twice.
you’ve gone down in my estimations, you are quite happy to post a sound clip of a mass suicide, with people screaming and what such, but to take down an entire list due to someone saying:
‘im so important, look how upset i am, i MUST let everyone know what a travesty this is… blah blah blah, whinge whinge whinge’
it shouldn’t matter that some peolpe complain, its just because they are feeling guilty about having an abortion. you obviously weren’t saying ALL abortion is wrong. you only have to have a little common sense to realise you are not a monster.
i wont quite coming back here, but ive lost alot of love for it now that i know whiney bitches can get lists taken down at will.
for shame
November 12th, 2009 at 1:43 am
not sure if deleting was the right thing to do, but that list was more trouble then it was worth.
To bad you got mislead by it’s creator. Still it was a decent debate most of the time I was around.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:44 am
@Captain Funtime (289): Did you even read the real reasons why the list was removed? Oh, and your comment about ‘whiney bitches’ is so ironic I don’t believe I need to say more.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:46 am
no, i just jumped on the band wagon, it seemed to be dying down a little and i didn’t even get to read the list.
BRING IT BACK!!!
November 12th, 2009 at 1:55 am
im not sure about other people but i come on here for a light read before the real day starts, if i dont agree with something or think the figures might be wrong, i accept it and cary on with my life….cant others do the same?
November 12th, 2009 at 1:56 am
Well done JF
November 12th, 2009 at 1:56 am
You don’t need to apologize man, First off, the world isn’t all candy and rainbows and people that deny that sort of thing that actually happened and are still being committed in the world need to wake up. If there is anything that people could or rather “should” take from that list is to open their eyes and fight that sort of injustice in the world to prevent it from happening again. Shouldn’t people after reading that list go “Wow, Look at all these atrocities, I’m gonna do my best to prevent them from happening again by speaking out with my voice” rather than being offended? Have people ever read the book animal farm? remember how the uneducated were pushed around and ruled by the higher ups to do their bidding? If you deny to learn history, you are doomed to repeat it. And JFrater, you did give a strong warning that it may offend some people and that they should read it at their own risk. So it’s really not your fault. Keep doing what you’re doing, I enjoy this site
November 12th, 2009 at 1:57 am
Aint your fault. dont feel bad
November 12th, 2009 at 1:58 am
@284, 287, 288, 291 et al – come on guys, don’t you see that these people don’t want to hear? They have their opinion set firmly in their brains and nothing will dissuade them. They want to blame everything on bleeding heart liberals and 29 year old mothers. They didn’t read the comments on the original list and they won’t read your comments now.
There is no point arguing with people like that.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:00 am
Chicken! What is this? Censorship on the net?
November 12th, 2009 at 2:06 am
Oh I get it now! JFrater is the orthodox christian so he made abortion #1 mass murder! And I thought that he was considerate for other people on the comments! What he did is deleted everything because everybody called him STUPID because he IS!
November 12th, 2009 at 2:26 am
ok guys, the people that want it back aren’t going to win, probably for the right reasons.
Xeygwyn put it in perspective for me (which is horrible to admit), cant believe i cried, but it was such a shock. either way, can we all come together and make a decent list now?
November 12th, 2009 at 2:27 am
@Jane (297): I know I should quit. It’s just so frustrating, ya know?
@xDr (299): Jamie didn’t make the list…
Oy.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:35 am
Awww the list is gone???? I was contributing SOOOOO much on that topic, more than ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Although i dont agree with the subject, and it was getting repetitive, I went to sleep and didnt see where the discussion led. We were at near 400 comments, Does anyone know how many it ended up having?
November 12th, 2009 at 2:39 am
@Captain Funtime (300): Lol, true, nothing that can be done now. There could have been a worse list, albeit less controversial, like Top Ten Colors of Fecal Matter, or 10 Reasons Why Shakin’ It is Playin’ With It. Oh well
I did like today’s list, I really miss watching the Twilight Zone.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:43 am
Thank God I don’t have to give up Listverse. I was going to find it very difficult.
Very resonable and responsible decision to delete I think. Well done.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:46 am
as much as i appreciate the honesty of your post, i completely understand why you deleted it. and ive done the same in the past with my blogs.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:02 am
i guess i understand why you deleted it (although i read the list in the beginning only and didnt see the ‘angry comments’). but i think there is no point pointing a finger to the author. it was the way he saw it. one part was controversial, yes. but i guess it is what he thought was true. as for bluffing about the numbers, well, such lists should be removed. so now lets just move on! well done, Jamie.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:23 am
As I said yesterday the numbers needed to be more acurate for the entire list.
I wasn’t offended personaly but I do respect your decision to pull it.
Fun whilst it lasted
November 12th, 2009 at 3:44 am
You all are so delicate. 99% of all information on the net is folly. But it’s entertaining. Like Paul Anka in the Simpsons–”If you stop looking at the monsters, they’ll lose their powers… Just don’t look, just don’t look!”
November 12th, 2009 at 3:47 am
@SnampyVersion2000 (308): By that statement, I declare your information to be false!
November 12th, 2009 at 4:02 am
The numbers were not as important as the list. The fact that humanity has consistently wiped out its own members in large numbers, something not even animals do, should be highlighted, so that we may realise what are capable of, and avoid it.
November 12th, 2009 at 4:07 am
I don’t come here for facts and then later refer to this site as a source of truth. I come here for interesting reading. Other than No. 1, the list was fine, errors and all.
I would have included Mao and Stalin, but so what!
The mention of the significant number of non-Jews killed by the Nazis in addition to the Jews was great. Most forget the non-Jews.
The presentation of No. 1 was high-handed and arrogant. It was presented as “my way of thinking is the only way”. That is what fired everyone up. It was the tone.
Seneca
November 12th, 2009 at 4:13 am
Was a good list. Don’t know why you had to delete it. But then i wasnt really reading peoples comments so.
November 12th, 2009 at 4:27 am
.Loving this site more each day! =]
.Controversial or not, was an interesting read nevertheless.
.The comments are almost always as interesting as the list. .Keep it up! =D
November 12th, 2009 at 4:38 am
I thought the list was good. Pity some people cant stomach controversial subjects.
November 12th, 2009 at 4:42 am
I – and many others – didn’t see the list so we have no idea what the controversy is about.
JFrater, you should upload it again but with a large, obvious disclaimer and explanation of the allegedly falsified info at the beginning and comments disabled + removed.
November 12th, 2009 at 4:58 am
If you want to post something about mass murders, check it out in South Africa. Our farmers ( Boere ) is being killed off and crime rate is out of control here. Its not long before we become a statistic ourselfs… Not a day goes by when someone is killed, in most gruesome ways. Some criminal was fed the other day to a crocodile. People get mugged and then set aflame. This is but some of the stories published that makes local newspapers but not national ones. Worth checking out. Start a new list on Failed goverments.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:01 am
He’s going to eventually repost the list with corrections. He said so in one of these previous comments.
So, no the list wasn’t removed because of controversy, but because it make Mistake #9 on the Top 10 Listverse Mistakes. It was a purposely offensive list, and was a gigantic troll. JFrater also said that he posted the submitted list before bed, so the shitstorm brewed while he was asleep.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:04 am
You occidentals are so sensitive and soft, I invite you to come live here in Romania for at least 1 year and I guarantee you that you all be another man. Pussies, you live your pink lives with your pink clothes and have nothing to do than bitch about it. Ps: good list JFrather, you shouldn’t remove it, keep it going.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:10 am
awwww men i thought it was one of the most important list that could of ever been posted…….i was actually going to print it and keep it!
November 12th, 2009 at 5:24 am
DON’T YOU EVER FUCKING GOOGLE ME!
November 12th, 2009 at 5:27 am
Can’t we see the list so we can decide for ourselves?
November 12th, 2009 at 5:28 am
Jfrater,
Thanks for your apology and removing the list. While I think discourse on abortion is welcome, I didn’t think the list in question was an appropriate way of bringing the topic up. I had planned to write a lot more but I’ll leave it at that as other have said it better then me.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:33 am
Saying sorry because you told the thruth?
November 12th, 2009 at 5:36 am
@139 – Well said.
I read the list and all the comments posted until about 12.45 UK lunchtime. It was a good, interesting list and made a change from the fluff thats been around recently – worst 10 halloween candies (or whatever it was) et al. There were factual errors and those should have been checked prior to publishing, and #1 struck me more as a lazy patch to cover the inability to find a decent 10 examples (obviously I missed the comments where the author admitted adding the subject purely to be controversial). What matters is the way that people were behaving in their comments. There are certain subjects on which you will never change a persons opinion and that should be accepted by both parties. There is no point having those discussions because they can never end. The abuse I saw, even in the early comments goes against what I see as the ethos of LV – to inform and inspire and incite creativity and debate. JFrater did right by removing the list – there have been a lot of haters on the comments recently, and fuelling that atmosphere with that kind of discussion could not end well for the site we have all come to love. There is a lot to be said for intelligent debate and the right to free speech – unfortunately what was lacking in that list and its comments was the ability to understand anothers point of view without agreeing with it – the effects of that highlighted by most of the atrocities in the list for those of us paying attention.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:46 am
I’ve gotta say, I think the decision to pull the list may have been wrong – perhaps taken off the front page or archived (for want of a better expression) would have been a better choice.
Still, from what I have read here and what I read yesterday (before the author’s post apparently admitting to fabricating statistics/information to create the most controversial list) I have to say the thing that concerns me most is that someone would use a list like this and atrocities such as this in a divisive manner.
I’ve gotta say, it worries me that a person would harness and doctor information like this in order to achieve some level of notoriety. Tis a little sick if you ask me :s
Jfrater – I have a great deal of respect for you for apologising, much appreciated.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:48 am
I’m so glad that thing is gone. You know, there’s controversy, and then there’s trolling, and that list author was very obviously trolling. The list was so insultingly dumb and ham-fisted, I kinda wanted to take a shower after reading it.
Like many I don’t think it’s jfrater who owes the apology, though. You acted very maturely and classy through this and I thank you for that.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:16 am
All you folks who are saying that deleting the list is a mistake and JF has nothing to apologize about and blah blah blah… Your not thinking like an owner of a website. The list obviously offended scores of people.
Offended people= some of them not returning to the site
people not returning = less hits
less hits = less advertising revenue
less advertising revenue = less $$ in JF’s pocket.
Do you see why he took it down? I wasnt persnally offended even though I could have been. Even though I think it was semi irresponsible to post that list , it wouldnt stop me from visiting this site.
On Listverse the good far outweighs the occasional bad. Smart decision to remove.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:24 am
Good decision. The list was designed to offend and start an argument, despite the author claiming that it would be merely facts and not about controversy. I saw it about 20 minutes after it came up, and then went to work, and completely disagreed with item number 1 but decided it was better to not make to big a deal out of it. Didn’t want to be that guy…
Although perhaps a better way to deal with this would have been to leave the list up, but disable further comments, then you could use it as an example of what is not acceptable.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:29 am
It’s unfortunate that some people’s immaturity caused you to make the decision to delete the list JFrater..
Unfortunately having a strong opinion against abortion is considered being “intolerant” but a strong position for abortion is considered “politically correct” and far more acceptable..
I could say so much more about this but obviously not everyone that comes to this site can take the list or peoples opinions for what they’re worth….
November 12th, 2009 at 6:37 am
“It is nobler to declare oneself wrong than to insist on being right – especially when one IS right..”
I LOVE listverse and look forward to sneaking a peek at work everyday – I think anyone who submits a list has balls! jfrater – you apologise to nobody!
November 12th, 2009 at 6:52 am
I suggest commenting shouldnt be allowed in this thread…since it is becoming another debate…
November 12th, 2009 at 6:55 am
[deleted]
November 12th, 2009 at 6:58 am
oo yeah forgot to mention that advertisers tend to pull ad’s when dealing with probably the most controversial topic on earth
November 12th, 2009 at 6:59 am
I don’t think an apology is necessary. Mistakes happened. Besides, murder is murder regardless of the numbers. One murder is not any less evil than 100. Though I wish you hadn’t pulled the list, I do respect your decision to.
Have a great weekend ahead, Jamie, and sleep well tonight.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:00 am
Thank you for removing this, I was greatly disappointed in item number 1. I’ve never really been peeved about a list before this one either. Though I didn’t join in the online-bashing of people against abortion, I must say I felt pretty offended by people saying pro abortion people should die and rot in hell because the holocaust is exactly like abortion, clearly. It wasn’t a needed addition, I don’t think the list writer thought it though and was VERY biased, as opposed to you JFrater, as you always seem to be somewhere in the middle when something controversial comes up in a list. Did you not think something so biased about ABORTION of all things would spark off some rows? Did you even proof read it?
November 12th, 2009 at 7:09 am
Abortion is genocide against the unborn.. Jfrater cowered to the “tolerant” left.. You guys are so sweet.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:13 am
Just wanted to say that I actually liked that list and appreciated the warning for disturbing content/photos. I read through it while the kids weren’t looking over my shoulders and thought it was pretty good.
I expected some controversy over the number one slot, but it still surprises me that it got that bad. The writer had a point that was well made. Regardless, you use your best judgement and even if you think you made a mistake all you can really do is try your best with the information you have at the time you make the call.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:15 am
I read the list and enjoyed it. It was the comments that riled me up. The content was interesting.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:18 am
People are overanalyzing this. He didnt “fold” to the left or lean to the right. He just made a business decision. Is alienating a chunk of your audience and pissing off advertisers really worth a few extra comments?? I dont think so. People should pull back and view this from a logical perspective. The man has a website to manage. At the end of the day is about profit. (If you think not I question what planet you live on) The bottom line is $$ talks, not overzealous commentors.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:18 am
This was clearly the correct thing to do.
The fact that there is a discussion topic on abortion that did not receive as much attention and anger as that list speaks volumes.
My anger at the list was due to the fact that abortion was being described as a targeted mass killing, without the question of whether it qualified as a targeted mass killing being addressed. If it had been, then clearly even the biggest anti-abortionists in the world could not disagree that abortion is NOT a targeted mass killing.
It’s not targeted on a mass level- lots of non-connected individual events does not make something mass, people also go and take a shit every day, does that mean that 6 billion people are all engaging in a mass shitting? Of course it doesn’t
It’s not being instigated by a specific group of people, and is not targeting a specific group of people.
By putting it on a list where it has no place is just going to incite people. It’s clearly out of place, and is so obviously there to promote a viewpoint of the author in a (not so) subtle way.
It was just offensive, to me, to see that someone could place a general concept and action such as abortion as on a par with, say, specific people in a political party targeting other people due to their ethnicity or religious affliliation and then going about killing as many of them as they can.
It was the blatant nature of the agenda that offended me and I imagine so many other people too.
People’s opinion on the morality of abortion has NOTHING to do with why this was so offensive and wrong.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Because of your apology in response to criticism, you should replace the “Mass Murder” list with a subject on your very action to comply with the strong retort of one side’s PRINCIPLES over another. As example, pro-abortion proponents (or anti-life if you view the other side) complained, so you removed your entry. Same as Muslims complained about publishing the prophet Muhammad cartoons, so the Yale University publisher removed them from the book. Perhaps you could call the list “Ideological Bullies”.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:24 am
STOP! Just stop stop stop stop stop. The man apologized and here you are commandeering his sincere apology page so you can stand on your soapbox, you asses. If you want to further the abortion discussion, do so here:
http://listverse.com/2008/07/31/your-view-should-abortion-be-legal/
Wow, a whole page dedicated to discussing the abortion issue! Whooda thunk to go there to debate abortion? BTW, that thread has been open for well over a year and is 900+ strong because people can be attempt to be civil there. Keep that in mind.
Jamie, I commend you for opening up your site and allowing all sorts of people and opinions here. I certainly wouldn’t have the patience or fortitude to deal with it.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:26 am
I don’t even think the original list of comments got this heated. And, to be fair to Shannon, he got what he wanted.
To address the balance, a new, factually correct controvertial list should be published, that should satiate everyone’s thirst.
Top Ten Funniest Rapes, anyone?
November 12th, 2009 at 7:31 am
What’s with all these stupid-ass comments? Jamie made a mistake and apologized. Discuss your opinion on abortion and whatever you want to argue about on a different discussion.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Some people are for free speech as long as it agrees with what they believe. Everyone else should be censored
November 12th, 2009 at 7:39 am
There was nothing to be sorry for… you posted what was real and in our history. Only those who did the deeds need to be sorry.
Chin up kid ya did good, Jim
November 12th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Poor Jfrater
All you try to do is produce an interesting website for people to read and have a little break from the day. It’s sad that people who get upset can’t express themselves without getting angry, thus ruining it for everyone else.
Thanks for having dignity and a great website!
November 12th, 2009 at 7:46 am
So can you e-mail me the list please??? And that other list that you pulled the one about suicide…
November 12th, 2009 at 7:48 am
@Randall (164): Didnt you post the same thing somewhere else? I believe it included the word “SPENT”…
Are you trying to brag sir?
November 12th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Well, at least you didn’t pussy out or anything.
Oh wait…
November 12th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Who gives a crap, it was a good list, if people don’t like it, then they can read another list, or get off the site. This country has gotten to soft, people need to stop worrying if someone will be offended all the time. bunch of whimps I tell ya, This country and the effort to be PC cost those soldiers their lives at Ft. Hood.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:56 am
I read the list. While I will say that I did find it a bit offensive, I didn’t think it so bad that I commented and made that opinion known. I read a few of the comments, and I thought people too it too far. No one will ever agree on the abortion topic, and I think there was nothing wrong with posting your opinion on the subject, like many others do. I don’t see why you should have to delete it. Anyway, just my opinion.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:58 am
I thoroughly enjoy each and every list, I think believe people with delicate sensibilities need to get over themselves….i mean come on grow up already
November 12th, 2009 at 7:58 am
I appreciate the consideration for your visitors Jamie, I didn´t care about the list content, just the way it was biased.
I always appreciate the controversy and wide ranged opinions from your versed and intelligent audience.
This act only makes you and your site more laudable, thank you.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:00 am
Being one of those that complained about the list, I must say I’m pleased about the removal. Not because it pampered to a point of view (which I’m opposed to), but because the same point was tacked on with a hammer with that list. With many actual mass murders, ethnic cleansings and so on, putting “abortion” on first is bizarre and serves little purpose other than propaganda. Add it on a list called “questionable medical procedures”, sure, it’s a controversial opinion, but as long as it’s properly researched and presented (risks, ethical considerations from the doctors’ point of view, etc.), it’s fine. Leading a list to compare it to holocaust, it’s not.
As I see it, there are two kinds of controversy – the one that is properly written, researched, sourced and theorized, and the “FNAR FNAR FNAR” thoughts or tinkering of truth the ones of Fox News like to pass out as facts. LV had a few bad lists recently, it’s better to scratch what was one of the worst than to lower the standards.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:03 am
glad i have a saved copy of the list in my email… where no holier than thou whiners can make me delete it
November 12th, 2009 at 8:06 am
I popped on LV today hoping there would be some form of post addressing yesterday’s list, and there was, and I am pleased.
For those of you who think the list was taken down because the subject matter was controversial, I think you are wrong. Personally, I don’t give a crap about the abortion debate. I’ve heard it all before and I’m interested in listening to your views or sharing mine with you.
That said, I am glad the list was removed because there were many factual errors, the intro had to be tweaked to make the last entry fit a little more. But it still didn’t fit, even if you view abortion as murder. And then to be told by the list’s author that the factual errors were “on purpose” and that the number one entry was done on purpose to incite a negative response and lots of comments? That, folks, is why the list was removed.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Its sad some people cant accept reality … it was a list about mass murders not about ethics or morality. So to even dive into those subjects on the comments is wrong. Wake up people! Great list, thanks JFrater!
November 12th, 2009 at 8:18 am
i say there should be an NSFW (not safe for whiners) tag and disclaimer on lists like that
November 12th, 2009 at 8:21 am
jayfray: this many comments on a posting about a list and not the actual list ought to tell u something about the interest in the topic. here’s to seeing a more accurate version!
November 12th, 2009 at 8:21 am
still, I have love for my listverse
November 12th, 2009 at 8:22 am
I found the list interesting and not at all offensive. Having said that I realise there are people who are offended by such things. Even so, should the list have been deleted? The titles of lists are clear enough, I have not read those lists the subject of which I object to.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:24 am
I thought it was a pretty good list rough around the edges and required more research but jeez some of you are a bunch of whiny bitches that feed off of one another’s negativity your so called out rage baffles me blah blah blah get over it way worse or morbid shit has been brought up in numerous other lists… I am pro-choice but with that I’m also open minded and enjoy hearing or learning about other peoples perspectives get off your high horses and instead of pretending to be so righteous and appalled think was it really necessary for such a mini drama to occur.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Hey, Jfrater, thank you for administering this site, for the effort, energy, passion and time involved. Here’s a regular reading saying thanks and have a good day!
November 12th, 2009 at 8:30 am
The new “free speech”, has now been limited to those that agree with our new fuhrer.
I am sorry you crumbled, but respect you for having the guts to say it in the first place.
I wonder who will be next to be labelled less than human by these new fascists.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:32 am
[deleted]
November 12th, 2009 at 8:34 am
[deleted]
November 12th, 2009 at 8:34 am
[deleted]
November 12th, 2009 at 8:36 am
i love how people rant about a list be deleted because of the comments, but don;t read the comments themselves
Jamie, i would just like to say thank you for creating such a wonderful website, and it has been said enough and can never be said enough, you are doing a great job
November 12th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Controversy is the healer of apathy, and apathy is the problem of the world.
Apathy allowed the Nazi war machine to ravage Europe for a time before anyone had the guts to do anything. Apathy is what allowed the entire world to watch as Hutu and Tutsi rivals destroyed each other over differences that never even existed. Apathy is the source of “the bystander effect” which yielded the horrifying results expounded in a list just a few days ago. Apathy is what allows homeless men to sit on the streets at night and AIDS-stricken children to starve to death during the day. And yes, maybe apathy has something to do with the loss of potential life in American clinics everyday.
Controversy is the healer of apathy. And in the moments of greatest violence, dissension, and complaint–then, and only then, can healing truly begin.
JFrater, please re-post the list.
(Been reading this site more than a year, never posted)
November 12th, 2009 at 8:44 am
The list was aborted. Daily life continues.
Anyone check out the Twilight Zone list yet? It’s really good. I would recommend going and watching the episodes provided.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:45 am
I thought the list was great – except for number one. And that was only because it didn’t fit the criteria for the rest of the list. It actually had me doing my own research on some of the other items that I was unfamiliar with and I do appreciate the list for that reason. If the list was deleted just because of the abortion debate then I think that was wrong. It is your site (as you had mentioned in those comments) and you shouldn’t be bullied. Fix the numbers, change number one to something that fits the criteria, and repost it. It was a great list and my research made me cry for all the lost lives.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:52 am
I was really impressed that someone had the courage to publish this list, knowing that item #1 would not go over well.
Not impressed anymore.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Glad my day was busy yesterday….I don’t think I missed much. Thanks for having a conscience Jamie.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:57 am
@GTT (349):
Well of course not.
Ianz asked, that’s all.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Oh no, did some people get offended because the truth of mass murder that they’ve been complicit in by supporting the “right to choose” made them feel guilty? Such sad little babies (no pun intended).
If you’re going to be a society of stone-cold killers, you need to work on that stone-cold part.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Don’t be friends with Matt, he licked the list, ew.
By the way, what happened to not starting up the argument again?
November 12th, 2009 at 9:20 am
There’s something wrong with opinions whose proponents need to present them by ambush. Verbal ambush or ambush by deer rifle & handgun.
Christian evangelism by stealth is cowardly & dishonest. It reflects the evangelists’ own understanding that their morally-bankrupt position would otherwise be laughed off the stage.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:22 am
@Bob (376): That’s not the reason the list was removed. Please see previous comments about the author’s innaccuracies and epic fail. Did you even read the list?
November 12th, 2009 at 9:23 am
I agree, sensoring the lists you post simply because a couple people were offended by the list is conforming to the very reason you took it down in the first place. The people who were offended are going to be offended regardless of whether or not the list was posted.
IMHO, I think you should have left the list up. Maybe wrote an apology to the people that were offended, which would have been overly nice of you, but by no means something you’d have to do.
There are plenty of lists that I have been offended by that have to do with religion, race, personal preferences…etc…but I don’t go around making such a big deal to make you feel like you should retract something that you’ve posted. If you honestly thought the list was that offensive, you would have NEVER posted it. Seeing as how you did, affirms that you were reading it as a biased piece of information and whether or not you agreed with the writer or not, you still accepted it, which those who complained about it…should have done as well.
If those people didn’t read #1 on the list on this website…they’re going to read it on any of the other multibillion websites out there..yet you don’t see those websites taking down their information.
The intolerence of the people who preach tolerence is really disgusting.
Your apology was very noble; however, you can’t please everyone…and if you try, you’ll never make it.
Keep doing what you’re doing and if people complain…that’s their problem.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:23 am
@weeklybrainfood (368): Shut up, asshole
November 12th, 2009 at 9:27 am
I never got the chance to see the list but I’ve been here, pretty much, since the site started and I have never perceived you to want to cause any harm or offense to anyone.
I have always thought that you just provide a multitude of random information for the curious masses, like myself, in which I appreciate immensely.
Anyways, amongst all of these comments I’m sure you’ll never see this, but thanks for all the work you put into this site, I’ve learned a lot
November 12th, 2009 at 9:32 am
I like poo…
November 12th, 2009 at 9:32 am
It’s still out there in the Google cache.
And it should be corrected for factual errors, but I’m mystified on why the list was removed and not edited.
The ridiculous list that had America as the most dangerous country in the world was edited and not removed, IIRC. It appears that List Universe considers some political opinion more equal than others.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:33 am
If the list was a start of a big controverse it served it’s goal.
Spreading and judging and discussing opinions is what this world makes so superb.
It’s a shame app. it was impossible to have a grown-up discussion.
O well, must be the interwebs’ fault
Keep up the great work!
November 12th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Oh, and Weeklybrainfood bums goats also!
November 12th, 2009 at 9:43 am
I don’t know if i should say this but, for those who never had a chance to see the list, let’s just say that certain search engines cache web pages(especially popular ones)
November 12th, 2009 at 9:51 am
I agree with Dan and snowkid-
Who cares who is offended-tell them to get over it.
GET OVER IT!
It is a list for godsakes.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:51 am
There was nothing wrong with that list.
THIS IS REAL LIFE, PEOPLE. Are you people in a Disney coma? You want to believe life is always great? Nothing evil exists? Then close your eyes and pretend.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:53 am
No! Don’t apologize. If people want to get worked up over a LIST ON THE INTERNET, WHICH AFFECTS THEM IN NO MANNER, then fuck ‘em.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Perhaps it could be posted somewhere else? I didn’t get to read it and kinda missed all this controversy, cos I was having a break from the site.
So now I’m really curious! I don’t want to ask anyone to explain what happened, but…
November 12th, 2009 at 10:15 am
I DON’T WHICH IS WORSE, THE LOW QUALITY, POORLY THOUGHT OUT CONTROVERSIAL LISTS THAT GET POSTED OR THE LOW QUALITY, POORLY THOUGHT OUT SAFE AND SANITARY LISTS THAT GET POSTED.
November 12th, 2009 at 10:25 am
i think the list that u just deleted was one of the best list ever !!!
November 12th, 2009 at 10:42 am
My God, didn’t you read my previous comment (344)? JFrater made a mistake and then apologized sincerely for it. So just leave off.
November 12th, 2009 at 10:50 am
We still love you JFater!!
November 12th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Jafe, thanks. I am all for free speech, but preserving the integrity of your site as a resource for well-researched, unbiased lists is important. I think you’re absolutely right that this would’ve been more appropriate as a Your View, and I respect your decision to take it down. If only other sites were as thoughtful and considerate of their readers, the Interwebs would be a better place.
November 12th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Wow people had a problem with something on the Internet. Why does that not surprise me?
I can’t understand how people have a such a problem with something they need to ‘bully’ others into submission. If you seriously had a problem then, there is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, but if that is not enough for you then why not leave the site. No one is keeping you here. What is and has been said can never be unsaid no matter how many ‘bullying’ comments are made. I for one love this site and love reading the lists be they fully factual or not. This is the Internet people and I for one have come to the realization that you are not to believe everything you read or hear on it. Take everything with a pinch of salt as the saying goes and you might feel a bit better.
I liked that the poster of the list had the ‘balls’ to include abortion as number one especially how they explained it and to be honest it was unexpected
.
Now I know that there people out there that are going to take this comment and rip to shreds and argue and moan and agree and ignore and everything else under the sun that they could do to this comment but I don’t really care.
November 12th, 2009 at 10:59 am
To all those that say “it’s just a list get over it” you have no idea what the list was about.
The body count was skewered, information was falsified and a slew of many other errors had embedded itself in the list.
The biggest thing was the abortion topic. I’ve been coming here for a VERY long time and never once have I seen something so insane as the debates that followed it.
I completely disagree with the concept of abortion. The fact that people can’t live up to their mistakes and take the simple way out disgusts me, and even I equate it to a form of “murder”.
However, I think removing the list was a wise choice on jfraters part. He knew that leaving it up would enrage some people, and maybe even drive them away.
Anyway, with a little revision and checking the facts it could have been a great list. Change the name to something a little more suitable and you could keep #1
November 12th, 2009 at 11:04 am
398 JohnyK Is it someones ‘mistake’ if they are raped? Just pointing that out
November 12th, 2009 at 11:04 am
No need to apologize. The list in question was inflammatory, fatuous, and occasionally incorrect, but it wasn’t necessary to delete it. Close the comments, but put it back up, or not, but I’d prefer uncensored things.
Quite honestly, I’d rather have the opportunity to critique it than just talk around it.
November 12th, 2009 at 11:12 am
399 Irish Guy: did you know that conception occurs in less 1% of rape cases? However, some studies show that it may be as high as 4%
So if there are 1,000,000 rapes in 1 year. Around 10,000 to 40,000 conceptions.
But there are 1,200,000 abortions a year.
What about the other 1,190,000 to 1,160,000 abortions?
Sorry for using such a crude topic. I’d rather not use rape as a way to make a point. =/
Just curious.
November 12th, 2009 at 11:13 am
I didn’t see this list…
Owner of listverse, can you send me the texts by email?
If not,that’s ok.
Now,my opinion about this site…
As see your lists as something that really gets my curiosity, and when I see something I like here,I will search about it.
I have done that lots of times.
Listverse to me and my friends,is like A First Step when learning about many things.
If there ever was a list that caused trouble, you just need to show the list in a differente way.
Change some words, dont express point of view, just say ”the year,the day,time and place and names”.
This way,people will search the web about the facts and we wil have an interesting list to learn.
November 12th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Aww, it’s ok. We like your controversial lists!
November 12th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Today… listverse has demonstrated that it is attentive to its members, that unlike other sites where readers are thought to be idiots and the admins all powerful Gods, listverse is humble enough to acknowledge mistakes. Yesterday i was angry, today I feel proud to be part of this community.
Keep going JFrater
November 12th, 2009 at 11:39 am
I read the list and I think you should have left it up. Freedom of speech means we’re all entitled to our own opinions and that’s what the list was (an opinion I happen to agree with by the way but regardless). You weren’t trying to change peoples’ minds, you were just voicing your thoughts on a touchy subject…no harm in that!
November 12th, 2009 at 11:44 am
So, what are you saying? The Top 10 Arguements against race mixing list maight not get posted?
November 12th, 2009 at 11:49 am
For those who did not get to read the list, and those who did but were not paying attention, Number One was “Legalized Abortion” (italics mine), rather than just generalized “Abortion”. Since most people would not argue that abortion, whether legally or illegally obtained, is intended to cause the same effect, the reader must wonder why illegal abortions were excluded from the list.
To me, that differentiation was a huge red flag that the list author may have been trying to promote a particular political view, especially because the text of that article only referred to abortions legally performed in the United States after 1973. Most authors, if they were including abortion in a list about killing, would have included all abortions; those illegally obtained, those legally obtained before 1973 in the United States, those legally or illegally obtained in other countries. To omit all those other abortions but to state that legalized abortions in the United States were killings was one of the reasons that the list in general and that topic in particular was not not at all logical or thought out.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
I get the point you were trying to make, JFrater, and I’m sure — even now — that it’s a bit disappointing that such a bold stance on a topic has to be redacted.
It’s not you. Hell, it’s not even us. It’s humanity in general that requires an occasional case of censorship. In order to appeal to the masses, one must cater to the masses.
Chin up. There are plenty of people out here to appreciate what you do every single day
November 12th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
JFrater…please let the readers of Cogitz know what your plans are for the future of the site.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
its okay! toaster forgives! <3
November 12th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
I know that if you have any recollection of me at all, JFrater, it’s because we’re constantly arguing in the discussion part, but I want to chime in and say that I didn’t see your list, and I think it’s too bad that you pulled it. That’s what the discussion option after the list is for. I respect your decision to pull the list, but I would have supported your choice to leave it up 100%.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
@Scifer (409): Cogitz was updated 2 days ago
November 12th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Put the list back on. Let them comment. If you kill someone people will talk about it. If you kill more than one you are still a killer, and more people will talk about it. Stories on people being killed is big new on media even now. So whats all this censorship is about?
November 12th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
thanks Davy..i refreshed my bookmark and you r correct. I hope he continues to update it regularly. Again thnx.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
@DiscHuker (360): I am sure it will be back – albeit in modified form. I also have a list of top 10 things you can’t debate on the Internet which is semi-related
November 12th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
I am outraged and would like this apology removed. I have 37 abortions scheduled today and this better be gone when I get back
November 12th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Mr. JFrater: I commented in the negative about yesterday’s list and today am surprised and I guess pleased to see it taken down. However, censorship is a slippery slope.
As I reflect, I would say this: Listverse is yours, you make the rules and you have created a ‘place’ that folks visit daily and that is interesting, quirky and often fun. You do not shy away from the darker aspects of human history, but neither do you wallow.
Shannon, on the other hand, deliberately set out to stir up mud. And so he did. Clumsily.
I have not read back through the over 400 messages here; what I am about to suggest may have happened. Invite Shannon to link his list to this discussion and those who wish to may keep up the conversation about his offering somewhere else, while this site continues under your able stewardship.
(Don’t you find it curious to use such solidly land-based language for so many aspects of the ethereal internet?)
November 12th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
@Rolo Tomasi (339): There is an element of truth in what you say. Obviously the suicide list was removed over finances. The difficult part of my job is to try to balance the risk of financial loss (and consequently the site loss due to hosting fees) and being free with the information here. I think that we have managed pretty well so far because there have been a very small number of lists removed and only a couple of topics I won’t broach on the site.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Oops! I guess the wrong side expressed an opinion on this one! See, this is why you have to check the liberal talking points more thoroughly before you develop an opinion of your own. Works for most of the left.
And to think, I actually thought more of this site for having the balls to express what many people think. Shame on you for apologizing.
November 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I didn’t get to read the list, and, based upon second hand information, aside from the whole legalized abortion bit, I seriously don’t get why it was taken down, just because of that one issue.
Why not add a disclaimer? Why let a couple of butt hurt and prudish people trample on the first ammendment rights?
I’ve been haunting this place for a while. I enjoy the contriversal lists and the honest truths they portray.
I’m dissapointed.
I’m considering finding a new site to hang out at . . .
November 12th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
@ 388, 389, 390 et al
people who are telling others to get over it and not get worked up but who are themselves worked up and not over it.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
I think it was right to publish a list on this subject. It tackles an important issue that people should be aware of. Certainly I learned a thing or two from it.
My hats off to you.
About your statistics … well you usually get your information from Wikipedia according to the sources. Usually listverse is taken with a pinch of salt.
I do disagree with Abortion being on the list though, admittedly it is a ‘targeted mass killing’. But this was a list of genocides due to hatred and prejudice. They have absolutely no benefit.
Whereas abortion can have benefits to a family that simply can’t cope, or simply be more humane to the child, say if they would have terrible genetic diseases.
This is just my opinion though, it is your list after all.
Keep up the good work
November 12th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
I too have been going to this site for a while and what I like about it the most is the author/editor, as he makes a lot of sense in the literature he posts/approves to post.
To the author/editor (JFrater): You didn’t make a mistake and you do not need to apologize. You did not set out to be mean to someone or hurt anyone’s feelings. You were not malevolent in your actions. You simply allowed a list to be posted.
To all the people that had their panties in a wad… Please unwad your panties, and grow up. God forbid if anyone censors what you say or believe because they have a difference of opinion.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Allowing everyone to have their say is defusing the issue amd getting past it.
Seneca
November 12th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
If you want to see the list, just google listverse mass murderers and go to the cache version. Everything lives forever on the internet
November 12th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Hey, it’s not your fault. This is YOUR site, therefore YOUR opinion will show through. I completely disagree that abortions count as murders, but you have no reason to be sorry. This is a great site, full of great things, it’s only natural that some of them cause controversy.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
You have nothing to apologize for! It doesn’t matter whether a person is pro-life or pro-choice. You even said that no matter a person’s view, abortion has changed the population. That’s a fact – plain and simple.
Those of us who are loyal readers enjoy your posts because they are informative and interesting. They don’t have to be happy to be informative. Please keep doing the great work you do!
November 12th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
@jfrater (415): I also have a list of top 10 things you can’t debate on the Internet
Heh interesting idea, but obviously ANYthing can be debated, as there are two sides to every issue. The “problem” usually is that the two sides are unwavering in their positions. Perhaps consider altering your work-in-progress title to something like “Things that can’t be settled by internet debate” or some such. Just a thought.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
THANK GOD YOU TOOK THIS LIST DOWN!!!!?1/?!
heaven forbid you upset someone on the INTARNETWEBZZ
this site used to be good.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
@jfrater (415): I also have a list of top 10 things you can’t debate on the Internet
O RLY? Is that a challenge, sir?
November 12th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
@Maggot (428): obviously ANYthing can be debated, as there are two sides to every issue.
I delightfully disagree, Maggot. Some examples off the top of my head:
-The deliciousness of bacon (the vegetarians and Kosher no doubt agree. They’re simply much quieter in their acquiescence)
-Green is quite possibly the greatest color in the world. No one can argue with me since I’m an artist
-Yoga makes me angry, Kickboxing mellows me out
-The Lactose Intolerant will still eat dairy unless it gets bad enough to warrant a trip to the emergency room
November 12th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
@gabi319 (431):
“…Green is quite possibly the greatest color in the world…”
I hate green… It annoys me greatly.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
I thought this list was one of the best i’ve read in a very long time, all those people who complained about the list are too touchy for their own good. It was a simple list, no need to get all fussy over it. Should have left it on in my opinion… anyone agree with me?
November 12th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I think you made the wrong decision in deleting it. It was a great list, and I’m very glad you stood up against abortion. You wrote the truth, and that is all that mattered.
It is somewhat cowardly that you deleted the post, and I hope you will put it back on, because it truly was a great post.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
@gabi319 (431): -The Lactose Intolerant will still eat dairy unless it gets bad enough to warrant a trip to the emergency room
Great… So until an emergency room visit is required, I´m supposed to choke and gag on noxious gas? Dont ever mention that to my husband… I´ll never be able to sleep again…
November 12th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU JFRATER! OMG. THIS IS JUST UNACCEPTABLE. HOW COULD YOU! lol.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Everyone out there commenting that the list was pulled down is missing the point entirely. This site has NEVER shied away from controversy. (one of the main reasons I read it everyday). The point is that the list was inaccurate and not just in regards to the #1 entry. This has been gone over ad nauseum in the comments. I like controversy as much as the next guy, but when the “facts” are wrong I think it is unacceptable. Yes, it is simply an internet list that people can chose to look at if they want. The thing is that several posters stated that they wanted to pass it on to others. That’s fine if the list is factually accurate, but not if the list is telling lies. Those are the reasons the list was taken down. It had nothing to do with controversy or political persuasion, it had to do with the facts being inaccurate.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
That sucks jfrater… way to back down. You just let all of these fools win… shame. Abortion is murder and I was proud that you defended the innocent but then you chickened out… for the sake of some site views. blah.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
@Mark (432): I hate green…It annoys me greatly
“It annoys me GREATLY”
I rest my case
It’s not my favorite color either, Mark.
@GTT (435):
Wow! Your husband’s probably one of the very very few LI I’ve “come across” who seems to consciously avoid dairy! Among the memorable quotes I’ve heard over the years:
“I know I shouldn’t eat cheese but that’s not gonna stop me!”
“I didn’t know there were [Lactaid] pills! I simply suffered through it when I wanted an ice cream cone.”
“Eat ice cream and deal with LI…or Not deal with LI by not eating ice cream… I’m picking the lessor of two evils.” (she ate the ice cream)
“Who cares? I don’t have to go to work tomorrow!” (that quote’s from me, lol)
btw, your husband could always try Lactaid Pills and Lactaid Milk. It’s still kinda hit or miss for me (I’m not so severe that I need to go to the ER every time but I’ve had a scare or two…or three, lol) but the Lactaid brand’s worked best so far!
or…nothing says love quite like a gas mask, GTT
November 12th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
QQing pansy Americans.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Remember folks, this isn’t the Library of Congress- this is a privately run website, and the founder has the right to decide what content is posted (or retracted). Everything is up to their discretion, and they are under no obligation to post a reader submission simply because it’s there. Under the About section, you can find the mission of Listverse:
“We are focused on lists that intrigue and educate, specializing in the bizarre or lesser-known trivia.”
Note the use of the words trivia and educate; That implies that the information presented here is accurate and to some degree, unbiased. While the opinions of various authors do sometimes come through, my impression is that the only reason to read a blog like this is because there’s some trust in the fact that it’s accurate.
If I wanted biased, under-researched, politically motivated factoids, I’d watch Fox.
Thank you @JFrater, for keeping it real. This is *your* baby, and as evident in this monumental thread, no one likes to have people tell you what to do with it.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Yea, Thanksgiving, like CNN and MSNBC aren’t biased… *sigh*
November 12th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
@Sam oh, Sam- I just grabbed one to make a point. Don’t be sad I didn’t pick on those either
November 12th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
It’s okay. Your still awesome!
November 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
I don’t see why people even to argue about abortion. Its never going to change. It will not ever be made illegal. Ever.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
@gabi319 (439):
Well, at least you had the decency to worry about the future of your co-workers´ olfactory sense…
As for my husband: on the bright side, it´s not so bad. He only gets gassy if he overeats… But unfortunately, the “overeating” applies to a variety of foods, most notably onions.
Nothing says love (or masochism) like not jumping out of a moving car when the sting hits the nostrils…
Though that gas mask sounds like a goo idea…..
November 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
@gabi319 (431): I delightfully disagree, Maggot.
This sounds a bit debate-like to me.
-The deliciousness of bacon (the vegetarians and Kosher no doubt agree. They’re simply much quieter in their acquiescence)
Ok, no fair using the greatest foodgroup known to man to kick off a debate. Not fair gabi. Not fair at all. Damn you. If you recall, I am the one that turned YOU on to the Bacon Recipe website several months ago. In a debate, praying on your opponent’s weakness = “know your opponent”. Ergo by inference, it’s a debate. Food for thought.
-Green is quite possibly the greatest color in the world. No one can argue with me
This is kind of a gray area. Is it true what they say about green M&Ms? IMO that’s debatable. It’s definitely not a great color when it is spreading all over the three week old bean dip in the back of my fridge.
I’m an artist
And I’m green with envy about that. That’s an ugly sin to have btw, so thanks a lot.
-Yoga makes me angry, Kickboxing mellows me out
Well I’ll admit – you’re just freaking weird. There is no debating that. Point gabi.
-The Lactose Intolerant will still eat dairy unless it gets bad enough to warrant a trip to the emergency room
It’s the “risk vs. reward” that you are debating here, even if it is only within yourself. Btw, is it still “the greatest color in the world” when you become a little green around the gills after a dairy binge? Just wondering.
Let’s face it. I don’t think we are going to settle this debate here, on the internet and all.
November 12th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
#25 – Unicorn Farts
You’re screen name says it all.
November 12th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
I think you were asking for a shitstorm when you put the abortion bit in.
Otherwise nothing personal.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Don’t worry jf I forgive you
November 12th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Listen, I come to this site to read fun lists. Not have someone shove their opinion about abortion down my throat. Is it any wonder that most of the people here are conservatives? I’m done with this site. Ta ta.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
here is something for the anti-abortion mob to consider – a miscarriage is also known as a ’spontaneous abortion’. so ,therefore,if abortion is in fact murder who is the murderer in the event of a miscarriage?
think about that one when u shout that a person is a murderer when they have been through an abortion. the ppl who bang on and on about God saying its wrong are the kind of ppl who have no idea about what a woman has to go through when she decides to terminate,not to mention what the father of the baby must be feeling.
not ALL women terminate because they have an unwanted pregnancy. some have no choice but to terminate due to complications. anyone who is a decent human being would not let a baby into this world just for him/her to have a life of suffering.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
I hope that it hasn’t dampened your spirit on publishing lists from us “noobs,” JFrater.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
@natapillar (452): Not all pro-lifers are religious…
November 12th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
@Marv in DC (437): you said exactly what I was thinking. I didn’t bother posting it though, since those who are whining about pulling the list due to controversy OBVIOUSLY haven’t read the other couple hundred comments on here explaining exactly WHY the list was removed.
It’s frustrating.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
@Mark (454): I never said once in my comment that all pro-lifers are religious. i mentioned ppl who talk about God.
of course i know not all are religious…
November 12th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Hey man,.Why worry ? As said just paying your bills.Abortion is abortion.its the truth So why worry.Your not the one controlling it.At least now people know.Some people are just onion skinned.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
kashmirj,
It also seems like a lot of the people complaining didn’t get a chance to read the list. Most of the people in favor of deleting the list were the people who read the list and saw what happened in the comments.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
damn i missed the list…our school forgot to pay the internet bill.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
You’ve got nothing to be sorry for. People need to stop being a bunch of pansies. Number one definitely had a place on that list.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
@natapillar (452):
Your first statement is merely arguing semantics and archaic definitions. Also, most people like myself that are anti-abortion are referring to the millions of “convenience” abortions performed, as opposed to those for medical purposes. Although it seems that many pro-choice folks feel it ok to practice eugenics by eliminating individuals with challenges such as Down’s Syndrome. If a baby isn’t going to be “perfect” then it’s acceptable to terminate it because they don’t feel the child’s life would be as valuable or as happy as their own.
As always, I have just one question for the pro-choice people: When DOES human life begin? They can never seem to answer that. When the baby looks human? When the baby can feel pain and react with her senses? Or not until the baby is entirely out of the mother’s body? Don’t you think that if science can’t even answer this question, then maybe abortion IS murder?
November 12th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
People please check out comment (418)by JF
Its not a few complainers that resulted in the list being pulled because hey who really cares?? But when adverstisers start getting nervous therein lies a dilemna. JF is first and foremost an owner of a very successful website. Any other smart individual who wants to keep a successful website needs to make these kind of decisions once in a while.
The choice between earning a living and appearing to cater to dissenters is no choice at all. I, like JF (and hopefully others) would have done the exact same thing. Remove it, apologize for any inconvenience, and move on.
Like I said before I few extra comments are not worth putting your greatest assets at risk. Calling JF names or implying that he is somehow a “coward” is just plain naive. If a few pro lifers feel vindicated, then so be it. If a few pro choicers feel let down, then so be it. In my opinion there are only two entities that matter here the owner of the site and the adverstisers who help keep this site going. If either one removes themselves then we wont have this awesome site as we presently know it.
For all you who complain and call the owner names for making an administrative decision, WAKE UP. Because if this site changes or goes “bare bones” or doesnt churn out daily enterntainment, than guess what you have really lost something meaningful.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
i still like you, jfrater. <3
November 12th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
@Marv in DC (458): you’re right. And as it happens, I still have the list open in a tab from when I opened it yesterday (my computer is almost never shut down lol). I said it last night and I’ll say it again – bidding starts at $10 CAD. :]
And you’re right about the comments. There were 638 the last time I refreshed it (obviously before it was removed) and it turned into quite the debate. However, from my understanding, this isn’t the [main] reason for pulling the list, as so many of the commenters on this post seem to believe.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
@meatyurologist (461): As always, I have just one question for the pro-choice people
Sorry meat, not picking on you specifically but fyi I think I heard somewhere that there is an existing list on Listverse that is totally dedicated to this very topic. Interestingly, since this whole brouhaha started yesterday, a grand total of TWO people have gone over and posted something on-topic on that other dedicated list. Yet on this list, people continue to drone on about it endlessly. Wtf?
November 12th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
@Marv in DC (458): sorry, I seem to have misunderstood your post at first glance. I still agree though. I was one of the lucky ones who got to read it before it was yanked, and the debate got pretty heated. But I think people who didn’t get a chance to read it are a tad confused as to WHY. It wasn’t the subject of abortion that was out of line, it was the fact that it didn’t meet the author’s own criteria to be on that list.
But we won’t go there. Beating a dead horse and all that.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
@ kashmirj. (466). I slightly disagree with you. I also read the list and I actually thought it was one of the better ones and then, like everyone else who read it, I saw number one and I said to myself “WTF?”
I think that people took offense with the author directly implying that anyone who has any hand in an abortion is a murderer. Of course that particular entry was out of line with the rest of the list but I really dont feel that inaccurary was the cause of the controversy.
For the record, I dont believe in abortion personally BUT I absolutely feel that everyone else should have a choice. Crucify me now if you want but I dont feel its my business or anyone else’s to impinge on other people’s rights. Its your body , you do what you want with it, whatever transpires thats between you and your God. and if you dont believe in the man upstairs then thats fine also. I dont judge people and I have plenty of friends and acquaintances who are on both sides of the debate. At the end of the day we could all be right or we could all be wrong. So let it go.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
This website is not a democracy. It is a benign dictatorship. You entered willingly. Accept the dictates or leave willingly.
November 12th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Rolo Tomasi
I understand what you’re saying, I thought the wording of the #1 entry and the placement of it on the list was out of line.
That being said, the factual numbers on the other entries were off ( as was pointed out in the comments) and the contributer stated that their intention was to simply stir up a shitstorm. They did that well, but I think this site is above that. Jfrater proved that to me by taking down the list. He recognized that regardless of the politics of it, it wasn’t up to his standards. I fully welcome intelligent debate, but that list wasn’t encouraging it.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Well…what a controversy here. Luckily, Google reader saved that little list for me and I just finished reading it. yes, there was a factual error as far as the amount of Native Americans killed in the US….but lets face it, they were nearly wiped out, it was genocide pure and simple and horribly shameful. Also, the abortion piece clearly stated that it was not a judgement, simply a fact that millions of fetuses are killed each year…which is true and undeniable. Welcome the debate and don’t shy away from controversy!
November 12th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
@meatyurologist (461): i am currently pregnant and if my baby were to show up on a scan the signs of Down’s then i would continue with the pregnancy regardless. The point I am making is that for some people it is not a case of Down’s,or any other disability that means the child will still be able to have an active life. There is a baby boy who’s life support will be switched off because the parents agreed that it is in the best interests of their baby,not themselves. They did not want their son to grow up and be in incredible pain,they did not wish for him to have a miserable life that may only last a few years.
And I am willing to bet that his parent’s have at some point now wished they knew their baby would be born with this disability,so they had the choice to terminate the pregnancy before that child could be in any pain.
Abortion is not a nice thought,i agree with that wholly,but in some circumstances it is an only option for the parents.
As for ur question on when does a life begin? To me it begins from the moment of conception. But I am still pro-choice.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
@Rolo Tomasi (467): I agree with you, as I felt the same way. Going along my merry way, learning something new (so I thought), and as soon as I got to number one my heart was in my throat and I went, “Ohhh shit. You’re gonna get it now.” (not from me but from fellow Listversers) lol BUT, as you said, I still thought it was an interesting list!
BTW: I haven’t bothered to express my views one way or the other on the subject of abortion as I believe it is neither here nor there.
Good points though!
November 12th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
@ Astraya (468)
Well said. Democrary is wayyyyy overrated anyway. There is nothing wrong with a strong dictatorship. You could argue that it is the most effective form of rule.
Anyone who has studied political science or philosphy should be familiar with “LEVIATHAN” by Thomas Hobbes. Hobbes reiterated your post and very convincingly explained how a strong Monarch will always surpass any kind of division of power.
If any out there is into Political theory or philosophy needs to read Hobbe’s masterpiece. (If your not into this dont even bother… Leviathan is a very hard read). Big Up to Astraya for being very HOBBESIAN LOL : )
November 12th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Sounds like it was an interesting list! I’d be interested in reading it anyway! Love controversy!
November 12th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
I am sorry to see this list go. There were some errors that I noticed, but, and with all do respect, I come here to be entertained and challenged, not to be fed a bunch of facts. That is not to say that your commitment to quality goes unnoticed, just that I dont expect the same journalistic standards that I would otherwise demand from a news source.
Controversy isn’t a bad thing, necessarily.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
for fucks sake! (as they say in ireland) 480 comments?? for an apology??…I skimmed the list before work and made a mental note to come back…not so much to read the comments…they were predictable on both sides…but to see how many comments the list would garner..you nut jobs are so predictable!
but who knew the list would be removed that fast….and there were 480 comment on the apology…LOL!!!
best. listverse. ever.
jfray…you give good list.
November 12th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
man i want to see it. i was saving it for a good read…. cant i get a copy?
November 12th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
On a side note: those little avatars that people have associated with their nickname could be a little bigger, I have a hard time telling what some of them are. Anyone else think this would be a good idea?
November 12th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Is it possible to see this list anywhere?? I am curious to see what all the hype is about
November 12th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
I think we can all appreciate the fact that at 400 + comments, jfrater is still commenting back, thanks dude, your doing a great job here. Listverse rules!!!
November 12th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
@jfrater
dont apologize, sometimes people say real shit from time to time and your entitled to an opinion. keep up the good work regardless!
November 12th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
I want an apology for the extreme music list. That was far more offensive.
November 12th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
new #1
the mass murder of insects. or cows.
do you anti-abortionists eat veal?
November 13th, 2009 at 12:32 am
Dude I don’t think you owe anyone an apology for anything, thanks to these weak hearted faggots I couldn’t even read the article if you can’t take it fuck off.
November 13th, 2009 at 12:38 am
thats right… still waiting to read it… bloody imbeciles cant let us have our freaking fun!
November 13th, 2009 at 1:27 am
to anyone still begging for the list:
go to google.
type in: listverse killings (no “” required)
then click “cached” and you will see the list and nearly 600 comments. it’s there to see -nothing ever dies on the internets. so stop begging for an “email of the list” and if you want to talk about abortion go to the topical “your view”.
the end.
stop being pointless……
November 13th, 2009 at 2:01 am
@Xeygwyn (301): Well thank god for that! I thought he flipped!
November 13th, 2009 at 2:32 am
This whole affair reeks of zabernism!
Actually, it doesn’t! I just had to use that word as Jamie once said “I wonder how long it will take for this one (the word “zabernism”) to show up in the comments.”
It’s 3:30 am in Chicago. I’m bored, okay?
Seneca
November 13th, 2009 at 3:02 am
i didnt even read your apology.
just the fact that you thought an apology was neccessary was enough for me.
thanks for all the wonderful, wonderful information.
a beautiful collection.
a work of beauty.
thank you
simon
November 13th, 2009 at 3:10 am
To Doowiki, perhaps the items on your purposed list of “Ideological Bullies ” should include Zionist opposition to a] discussion about the holocaust and b] the way Israel treats Palestinians. You speak of cartoons which have no bearings on what is true – if Muslims don’t speak up against them, then it will be construed as true. I’m shocked that you would consider that as bullying.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:42 am
This is YOUR site. If the cockroaches dont like it- go elsewhere. I have no interest in mass murders or the parasites that commit them. However for the sake of painfull truth regarding this subject. European powers have alot to answer for. Here in Australia the british decimated the population of the native people (as they did elsewhere.) The turks did slaughter a great deal of arminiens.The isralies treat the palasteians in the same manner they were by the scum sucking nazi’s.Its just they try to hide it better. (OH AND I EXPECT TO COP FLACK FOR THAT COMMENT- GO AHEAD AND TELL ME IM WRONG) Hitler was subhuman, but stalin and mao killed a great deal more. i dont really know or care what the list was really about but this site isnt mine, if i saw something i didnt like i would leave, just like you cockroaches should have. have a nice day, i dont check but on comments cause i dont care about others opinions. bye bye.oh and yeah you tell a woman who’s been raped she needs to keep the resulting offspring. i would pay for the abortion myself.arseholes…
November 13th, 2009 at 5:29 am
The reactions was funny as hell though, huge abortion debate, and the inacurate numbers about the indians, debate about the nazi thing, etc. That was funny, I almost read all the comments, it was very entertaining, I do hope it comes back in top 10 deleted lists or something like that. That has to be the most contravercial list on the site’s history. lol
November 13th, 2009 at 5:30 am
I like your picture there, it’s so cute.
November 13th, 2009 at 6:22 am
To be honest the apology doesnt mean anything without an explanation and I was really interested to read Jane’s comment above where she mentions how JFrater edited the original list to (how it appears to me)pander to his religious/political viewpoint. Maybe Im wrong in which case I would really like to hear from Jfrater why he did remove the crusades from the original list, I have to admit it does seem a perfectly sensible inclusion so why the need to change it and yet keep abortion? Oh and pulling out the ‘i have written a nice list about muslims before’ card doesnt mean anything, its the equivalent of me making a homophobic comment and then ending it with ‘oh but i have gay friends’ or making a racist comment and saying ‘oh but my cousin is married to a black man so im not racist.’
To be honest, it probably wouldnt have been a big deal had it not been that Jfrater and his sympathisers have all conveniently seemed to gloss over and ignore what i think was a very valid and interesting point made by Jane in post 257. So why did you edit the list in such a way Jfrater? maybe i have completely got the wrong end of the stick in which case please enlighten me but it does appear that you did edit the list to suit your own political agenda .
November 13th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Well, Frater, you finally stepped on your dick. Although I wasn’t entirely offended(mostly because its a list, its not like Shannon committed these acts herself) clearly you had to apologize for being a shitty editor. I found the comments to be more offensive than the list itself. You guys spend more time making sure nobody’s feelings get hurt and censoring those making comments than you do making sure you dont publish a stupid list. I mean come on look at comment 6…You and your comment patrol cant even keep up with this nonsense. The ill advised list isnt pathetic, the whole listverse operation is. Youre in over your head and its time to sell to “Big Business.”
Get a clue.
November 13th, 2009 at 6:29 am
@ Tropical
Ill tell you why he edited it. Its called censorship. Hes been pulling this crap for the last 2 1/2 years. Have you ever read a derogatory comment in this place? Just read the blue links at the top of the comment box. Its pathetic.
November 13th, 2009 at 6:33 am
[deleted]
November 13th, 2009 at 7:12 am
oh snap!
November 13th, 2009 at 7:14 am
**ribbit**
November 13th, 2009 at 7:15 am
500! I’m so cool-ass!
November 13th, 2009 at 7:17 am
There are quite a few Russian genocides in history that could have made that list.
November 13th, 2009 at 7:17 am
This was an awesome way to generate site traffic. Good job guys!
November 13th, 2009 at 7:18 am
@Jane (257):
@Tropical (494):
I’d just like to throw my hat in with you two. I think both of you have raised some very interesting points, and asked some very interesting questions which it would be nice to have some answers to.
November 13th, 2009 at 7:24 am
This list was removed for a reason. Why repost it? If you really have been censored before. Good. Just because you have a keyboard and an internet connection doesn’t mean that you have the right to post whatever you want on someone else’s site.
November 13th, 2009 at 7:26 am
@494 – Tropical, Many thanks. I’ve been reading the comments here and hitting my head on the desk. Jfrater may be answering comments, but he hasn’t answered that one.
But will anyone commenting now even read this? I doubt it. People have their set ideas of what happened and they won’t be changed. As far as they are concerned it only abortion that was the issue. As I’ve said before, as have others, that is far from true.
One other point – why do so many commentators here seem to assume the objectors and/or jfrater are American? @440 is one of several examples. I’m not American, and I’m sure a good many of the other readers/commentators aren’t. Both jfrater and myself are actually both from the same country – and it sure isn’t the US.
November 13th, 2009 at 7:31 am
hi, I’ve never commented before and I haven’t read all the comments on this post, but I had to say something to jfrater…
it really upsets me that you removed the post about mass murders…okay, it was controversial and maybe some people found it out of taste, it wasn’t my favorite post either…but who are you answering to? yourself or your advertisers. we can’t continue to edit and censor ourselves just because someone would find what we say “hard to hear” or “in poor taste”. for me, the poor judgment came into play when you removed the post to satisfy other peoples’ comfort with what they experience in the world…the world is not Gymboree: we can’t cushion ourselves from the (at times) violent realities of our society.
Please stop being a sell out! Make a point! Have an opinion! Stick to your guns!!
November 13th, 2009 at 7:50 am
Aw shit, Jane brings up some good points.
Won’t be long before this is deleted too.
November 13th, 2009 at 7:52 am
@ulostme (506):
The point wasn’t that it was controversial, the point was that it was false information.
But I suppose the truth doesn’t matter when you’ve got political point to make – you’ve got to “stick to your guns!!!!1111ONEONEONE”.
Kudos on the integrity, J to the Frizzle.
November 13th, 2009 at 8:03 am
Censorship!
I think you should put it back up with the corrections for those of us that didn’t have the chance to read it. I don’t think the fact that it was controversial should impact your decision to keep it up.
Political correctness strikes again. Put it up and let the people whom
it offends debate it out on the comment section. At the end of the day you’re the ‘journalist’ impartial to your reporting even if it does cause a stir.
November 13th, 2009 at 8:03 am
@Jane (257):
Hmm, those are some good points… this “abortion is murder and here’s some lies to prove it” controversy goes right to the top, and like a Dan Brown picturebook it involves the Catholic church as possible players in a move to deny the Crusades!
I christen this debacle ABORSHUNGATE.
@Hot Carl (252):
For some reason I find this hilarious.
November 13th, 2009 at 8:57 am
The post had to be taken down because of inaccurate data? Well shit, if its because of one or two inaccurate lines would be enough to take down an entire post, I’m sure this site would have a lot fewer lists.
I’ve read that it was taken down because of the inaccuracies listed about the Catholic church… give me a break, there have been worst inaccuracies made. Don’t fool yourself and others… the list was taken down because of the choice of #1 on the list. And if you think the data listed for choice #1 is wrong, you need to check out the data form the Centers of Disease and Control’s website.
At least give people their right to express their views. If you don’t like it DON’T READ IT.
November 13th, 2009 at 9:12 am
@Fairways Hate Me (511):
Well if you don’t like the reasons JFrater (an avowed pro-lifer I believe) gave then here’s another one for ya: the list was fucking retarded.
If you need to support lies to back up your point then maybe the point isn’t worth fighting for.
November 13th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Who the hell cares if its contoversial. Anything can be controversial if two different parties disagrees with something. People need to grow thicker skin and really find something to do with their lives. If a list Is something in their life they have a problem with then maybe they have more problems in their lives than that.
November 13th, 2009 at 9:22 am
That’s ironic Raimo considering you decided you had to comment on it too.
Derp!
November 13th, 2009 at 9:27 am
@ 495 badlist
“I found the comments to be more offensive than the list itself.’
Right on the button.
You explained in one sentence what took me a whole essay to explain in comment no. 235.
The targeted mass killings list wasn’t so bad. It was only when Shannon started getting too involved with the whiners in the comment section which ended with Shannon becoming a whiner himself (an ill-advised mistake on his part)that the shit started hitting the fan.
Nobody started to look at the list as a source of interesting and verifiable information from thereon. Everything went spiraling downhill into an ugly war of ad hominem arguments. The targeted mass killings list became like a person from the outside looking in while the comments section took center stage with whiners and trolls as lead thespians.
November 13th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Good job, censorship on the internet is what we need because some people are too sensitive and stupid to stop reading. Thanks for choosing for us what we can and can’t read. GOOOOOO Communist China!!
November 13th, 2009 at 10:38 am
well… it’s still available on my Google Reader.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:47 am
I kinda thought the abortion shouldn’t of been on the list… it isn’t real murder.
November 13th, 2009 at 11:23 am
This is cool. Everybody makes mistakes. Not everyone has the courage to apologize when they believe they were wrong, though.
November 13th, 2009 at 11:58 am
@Rolo Tomasi (478): those little avatars that people have associated with their nickname could be a little bigger, I have a hard time telling what some of them are. Anyone else think this would be a good idea?
I wouldn’t exactly call it a BAD idea, but I might file it under “Who gives a shit?”
November 13th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Someone could send me the list, please???!!!!
Dwmontoya@hotmail.com
November 13th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
@Daniel (521): Does your mommy spoon-feed you too?
November 13th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Alright, people, keep posting those email addresses!! When I get off work in a few hours, I’m going to find all the newsletter and spam listserves and add them in there. Daily thought-provoking quotes? Word of the Day? Joke of the hour? The day’s top forwarded chain main? Hourly updates from Cat Fancy? Consider yourself joined.
November 13th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
My faith has been restored in ListVerse!
November 13th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
EDIT:
*The day’s top forwarded chain mail
November 13th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Jfrater, I missed the list, so cannot comment on it, although I do wish that I had seen it. I can say that it takes a real stand up guy (or gal) to admit that he felt he was wrong.
And for all you weenies, if you don’t like it, don’t read it. Just like TV. Better yet, write your own list.
@gabi319 (523): I would love to be on your list, but am reluctant to put my email addy on the site. Is there a work around? Thanks
November 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Abor**** is Murd**
November 13th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
No Apology necesary! Everyone loves Listverse because it entertains as well as informs. It’s hard to not get subjective over the content of a list and therefore base the list on subjective opinion, which adds to the whole definition of what is considered “Top 10″. Not everyone will agree with the choices regardless if they are based on fact or opinion. I enjoyed reading about this particular list and while I thought the choice for Number 01 was off-topic I didn’t get upset over it. People that disagreed with this list should just get over it.
Put the list back up. Last thing we need is to self-censor ourselves over the negative opinion of a few internet trolls….
November 13th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Jesus Christ people. It’s the freakin’ internet.
Why argue about this with people that you don’t even know and that you’ll never meet in real life?
This is ridiculous. Instead of arguing on a website, go out, get a life, and join a debate team if you want to argue your heads off. He deleted the list and apologized for it, get the HELL over it.
November 13th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
By the way… do these same people (trolls) ever thank you for maintaining & keeping Listeverse on-line? The time it must take to research and create each entry on a daily basis?
Jesus… Give JFrater a break!
November 13th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
@505, Jane, tbh I didnt see the original list so when I flicked through these comments, I initially assumed people had been complaining about the abortion issue but when I hit upon your post, and the post above yours about an individual complaining about Jfraters anti-muslim stance i was fully expecting someone to reply to that. And they didnt, even though you brought up an excellent point. It just seems extremely fishy to me now, why would he remove the crusades from the list?, and why did he add the ‘catholic’ ammendment to the Nazis section, both edits which the original author had no say in. And yet Jfrater had no problem in leaving the abortion point in despite this being far more contentious in my eyes.
Its sad that even someone like Jfrater who puts himself out there to be an all-round nice guy, holds such unsavoury views that he will willingly censor and edit posts to suit his religious agenda.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Rats! I missed this list. I really want to read it now. I’m so intrigued because the removal of this list has provoked 500+ comments.
Did the list include murder of Palestinans by Israelis, coz then I can start a conspiracy theory about the Jewish lobby leaning on Jamie to retract the list.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
@Jane (257): Thanks for the candid comment. The fact is the edits I made to the introduction were an attempt to reduce the flamewar. I then went to bed and discovered next morning that it not only didn’t help – it made things worse. I was trying to fix the problem not exacerbate it.
As for my inclusion of the word “Catholic” in the section on Nazis, yes, half the population of Germany was Catholic – that doesn’t mean that Catholics weren’t on the hitlist. At the time of Stalin’s purges more than half Russia was Orthodox – does that mean we must pretend that the Orthodox were not one of the groups targeted by him?
And finally, the crusades. I removed the Crusades because I do not believe that they were suitable to the list as they were wars. They were not the targeted slaughter of a group of people – they were wars to stop the takeover of other nations (for the most part). There were certainly some atrocities, but those were not the “crusades” – they were atrocities that occurred within those wars. Just as some of the stuff that happened during the Iraq War was terrible (the prisoners being treated inhumanely in some places), it doesn’t mean the Iraq War is inhumane or an atrocity.
There is a list on the site about the crusades which should dispel some of the myths that have grown up around it. I strongly recommend it. I will just briefly summarize those crusades (more details are on the list though):
1. Alexius I of Byzantium asked for the crusade to help defend his nation against the invading turks.
2. Edessa was conquered by Muslims and the crusade was called to take the town back.
3. Jerusalem was captured by Muslims and the crusade was called to take it back.
4. Called for the same reasons above but resulted in the scandalous and terrible sacking of Constantinople. This one was terrible – but to label all the Crusades as terrible because of it is clearly wrong.
5. Again to recover the Holy Land which had been conquered by Muslims.
6. Excommunicated Emperor Frederick II instigated this crusade. He managed to take back the Holy Land. The Church was absolutely opposed to this one.
7. Again a battle of land. This was the beginning of the end of the Christian states.
8. The last Crusade was to aid the last remnants of the Christian towns in Syria.
To state that these were targetted mass killings of non-Christians would be to also include World War I and II and the first Iraq war.
This, I believe, should also answer comment 531 above in which I am accused of censoring to suit my religious agenda. Considering I have published pro-Islamic lists as well as a list of evil popes ought to show that I do not censor in this way.
Finally – the fact that I am Catholic is not hidden – I have done lists that show the fact obviously, and I have stated so in the past in comments when asked. There is no hidden agenda here. The fact that I was raised in a Catholic culture is going to impart some influence – just as a muslim sending in a list will be influenced by his upbringing.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
I saved this list in my Google Reader. If somebody find this list controversial, I bet he will like a great site without controversial images and info – disney.com. It was a mistake to remove this list. I like this site cause I always can find controversial and disturbing information here. What’s next? Top 10 Best Pokemons list? Top 10 Britney Spears ex-boyfriends?
Fuck!
November 13th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
@Disappointed (516): Every day I choose what to publish on this site. If you don’t like it – go elsewhere – but you will find that this is what happens on EVERY site on the world wide web.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
@Daniel ohhh you’ll have plenty of mail soon enough my friend.
Can we have your social security number now please?
November 13th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Incidentally – I have read every comment on this page. Please keep in mind that I sleep in NZ time which means I am only awake for half of the day with the majority US audience. I also have to respond to a LOT of emails regarding the site and book, and I have to prepare or write a list each day. The fact that I can’t always respond to every comment is because of this. Originally I tried to respond to everyone – but we were getting up to 30 comments a day. Now we are getting over 100 on every list and (as you see here) over 500 on this one.
I am not going to repost the list as some are asking, but someone above kindly pointed out a link to how you can see if it you look at Google’s cache.
And finally (before I have to go out and buy a new printer) the list for tomorrow should be a nice break from the controversy of this week.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
@jfrater (538): Obvious Impersonator is obvious. Nice gravatar.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
jfrater – Thank you for your reply to my questions. I do not agree with some of what you have said, but that is a debate that is irrelevant to the original issue so I will not go into those objections. I am sure someone will call me on that and suggest I don’t do so because I have no real reasons, but different interpretations of history are not the point here.
That being said – the problem I had was the editing of the list and that there had been no reply to several questions about that editing from myself and others both on the original list comments and here, especially as you answered other points. The site’s integrity was called into question and silence seemed to just confirm suspicions.
One other question – do you inform a list writer of your edits (when they are substantial, as on the list in question and not just grammar or spelling) before it is posted and give them a chance to agree or withdraw the list if they feel the editing is inappropriate? I mean the deletion and addition of list items.
I do not mean the edit that changed the list criteria, making previous comments about the unsuitability of abortion on the basis of that criteria illogical. Maybe, when a list is edited after publication, a brief, one sentence, explanation as to the reason for that edit could be included? That edit was unfair to the many rational and articulate comments based on the original criteria.
I will accept your explanation and again thank you for finally giving it.
November 13th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
@Jane (539): Depending on the nature of the edits I do sometimes. In this case I did inform Shannon of the changes I had made. On some lists where the edits are very minor (grammatical or badly worded) I don’t. I have never once had a person request the edited list not be published. That was also the case with this one.
As for comments on the first list – I made replies early on, then went to bed. When I woke up there was a firestorm – I acted immediately and didn’t reply to any comments there.
I am sorry for having taken so long to reply to your comment here – I replied to some nearby yours so I am not quite sure how I missed it. I only discovered it when reading one of the new comments from today that referred to it. I don’t have anything to hide and I won’t intentionally ignore comments that I find awkward. I have tried very hard to have integrity on this site.
November 13th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
@ianz09 (538): Thanks – I have removed his comment. Oh – and if he reads this – we are on the world wide web – that is what WWW stands for. The WWW is on the Internet and it annoys me when people use www and internet synonymously – they are not the same thing.
November 13th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
515 Galactus
You are right. God help me, but you are right. I tried to keep my fingers shut, really I did, because I knew I’d get sucked in to the name calling. Unfortunately, the B.P.D. kicked in and it was “pow, to the moon, Alice!” I should have remembered what a coach I adored told me once when he saw my temper explode and said, “Son, you carry two buckets to every argument. One’s full of water and one’s full of gas. Which on you throw on the fire makes all the difference in the world.”
I threw gasoline, plain and simple, and that’s on me; but at least I called no one but myself names. As my wife can attest to, I am quite adept at making an ass of myself. Especially when she’s not around to play Jimminy Cricket.
539 Jane
Jamie emailed me and detailed his edits and, truthfully, he didn’t have to. In big bold black print on the submission page it says,
“By submitting this list, you agree that Listverse has the full right to publish this list when and if it sees fit, and you agree that you are the author of this list. You agree that once your submitted list is published on listverse.com, that Jamie Frater (representing Listverse.com) becomes the sole owner of all copyright and rights related to the list content.”
In essence, once Jamie decided to post the list I sent in after I agreed to the terms of use, it became Jamie’s list for him to do with as he pleased.
I think the site’s whole existence is testament to Jamie’s tolerance and integrity. I know he’s a better man than I because if I had admin rights and someone started attacking my hard work and me personally, I’d just delete all that person’s comments. Basically, I’d make sure nothing was in the comments that I hadn’t vetted. Jamie doesn’t do that. He allows all sides to say what they want to say and sometimes it gets ugly. In doing that, he’s doing more than I could.
Of course, that’s why he has a successful, revenue producing website with thousands of hits a day and I have a blog my own mother doesn’t read. Everyone does as he can with what gifts he has, you know?
November 13th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Publish What YOU Want J.
November 13th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
@Smeg (483): “new number one: the killing of insects or cows. Do you anti-abortionists eat veal?”
Lol…seriously? So human children are the equivalent of bugs or cows now? Wow, I knew that there was major lack of respect for life nowadays, but this is getting ridiculous. You seriously would feel the same stepping on an ant as you would reaching into a woman’s body and crushing the skull of a small human being? I actually feel sorry for you.
November 13th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
So I’m assuming you put “abortion” as #1 on your list of mass murders. Even if you’re ignorant enough to equate abortion with murder, that still makes no sense. Any idiot can tell that many “murders” at different times across all continents for different reasons is not “mass” in any sense. It’s just…murder.
And since it was #1 I’m guessing the whole reason you made the list was not to shed some light on gruesome historical mass murders but rather to step on the ol’ soapbox for your pet issue. And you failed spectacularly. Nice.
The fact that you scrapped the list and apologized saves you from losing tremendous respect points, but I can’t say I’ll respect you the same.
November 13th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Okay, just to the people posting stuff about “free speech” and “well, we have the first amendment rights, so you can’t censor us!”
Well, in the context that the first amendment was originally written, it means that you should have the right to speak against the government if you disagree. That’s about it. It doesn’t mean, hey, all of you can say what you want, when you want.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Xyla, you’re incorrect. Free speech covers opinions expressed about other civilians as well as religious and political opinions. If I write an article criticizing a musicians album, they cannot sue me due to free speech laws. It’s not just about criticizing the government.
That being said, these same freedom laws are exactly what gives website owners the right to delete comments and ban people.
November 13th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Wow jamie, hate to say it but your last word seemingly seems like our so midget president here in thwe Phil. after she said in a vid: “I….Am….Sorry”. That f&*!ing Gloria Arroyo
November 13th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
hi how’s it going
November 13th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
@Shannon (542): That was a very humble comment on your part. I commend you to be able to come forward with that, when you really could have sat back and let Jamie take all the flaming. Good job man, good job.
November 14th, 2009 at 12:02 am
Sorry, but this site has lost its credibility. The creativity is gone or something.
November 14th, 2009 at 12:16 am
The sitemaster of Listverse is a citizen of New Zealand, and isn’t subject to the Constitution of the United States of America.
November 14th, 2009 at 12:38 am
@ saber,
Well at least you dont have Marcos anymore… but corazon might have been better
November 14th, 2009 at 12:40 am
what’s the difference between the WWW and Internet?
November 14th, 2009 at 4:57 am
@AWH (554): The Internet is the the connection, the world wide web is something that uses the connection. The world wide web is every website. Listverse, Facebook, Wikipedia, etc. The Internet is not specific to websites. Email, Instant Messaging, etc., use the Internet but are not websites. Websites, email, IM, iTunes Store… These are all different types of paint, but can only be used with the same brush, the Internet. Another analogy is that these things are different vehicles, while the Internet is the freeway.
November 14th, 2009 at 8:47 am
If there were some factual errors with the list then I accept your apology and an admendment to the list would have been sufficient. I don’t see that an apology for the list is in order. It was controversial and I personally didn’t agree with the number 1 on the list but by no means does that mean that I don’t respect the fact that you have a right to post it. I think it’s admirable that you feel that you need to apologize. You did have a warning at the header of the list. People have a right to be offended but that right does not supercede the right to free speech. Keep up the good work.
November 14th, 2009 at 9:03 am
@ 541 and 555: You are both complete idiots who have no concept of networking. That is why you’re on a site about lists and not any form of technology information. Stick with what you know and make a list about stupid things, leave intelligent things to intelligent people.
November 14th, 2009 at 9:27 am
@Honest Pete (557): Ok Pete. We’ll do that.
November 14th, 2009 at 9:57 am
[deleted]
November 14th, 2009 at 10:42 am
The number one killed the list.
So I thank you for aborting it.
November 14th, 2009 at 10:43 am
@Tired of Crap (559): Hmm, I know someone who is going into moderation soon…
November 15th, 2009 at 2:11 am
for what it was worth u snapped wit number 1. it was awesome
November 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
@zombieproof78: just because a killing is murder does not make it evil. It simply makes it unlawful. So technically, the Holocaust was not murder, because it was done by the state. It was a killing. But that doesn’t make the action any more heinous. The problem is when people use the word “murder” in order to stir up an emotional response. The irony of the fact is that in the United States, abortion is not “murder.” Even when it was illegal, fetuses were still not legally considered humans, so even though the act was illegal, it still was not technically considered murder. It is, however, the killing of a fetus. Think well or ill of that however you wish.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
@antipatros
Are you then contending that morality must be equated with the law? If the state dictates that it is legal for a certain group in society to be killed, does this mean that we can no longer label this as murder?
I think you are granting far too much power to the state. Yes, the Holocuast did not meet the definition of murder according to the legal definition of the Nazi state, but it certainly met the legal definition of murder according to international law and the moral sense of any decent human being.
November 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
@antipatros (563): “Just because a killing is murder does not make it evil”. So what constitutes “evil” to you? Anything? Nothing? Only what YOU consider evil? Do you feel that “murder” is simply a provocative label for any type of killing?
November 15th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
I didnt read the list, I dont care. What does annoy me though is that you took it down because *some* people were offended by it. Fair enough it may have been inaccurate in some instances, but dont go backing down because someone else got offended. Especially if with what you’re saying is true.
In conclusion: Fu*k em’
November 16th, 2009 at 1:43 am
I am astounded at the number of people that live for nothing more than bitching. Jfrater does not hate muslims. That is entirely ridiculous. That in itself is a derogatory statement that indicates a prejudice against catholics. As he already stated he has done a number of muslim themed lists, and a number of lists that do not paint catholicism or christianity in a very pretty light. Of course he’ll write about what he knows. He knows a lot more about catholicism than islam so expect the lists to reflect that. Why is it that its usually the most intolerant people that throw around accusations of intolerance? Its because its human nature to assume that everyone has the same problems as you. Nobody is a victim here. No one has a political agenda. Its a site for fun and education. Its run by one dude. He does his best to keep a lot of insanely critical people happy. You expect him to be friggin’ God and never make a mistake and cater perfectly to everyone’s varied tastes and opinions. PLEASE for the love of all that is good give jfrater a break! How the hell did this even get on to the subject of the existence of racial prejudice on this site?
Also, he didn’t take the list down cause he’s Big Brother and wants to censor us! He took it down because so many little whiny bitches freaked out over seeing something that upset them. Get a life. Both those of you who whined about the list and those of you whining about taking down the list. Things sometimes happen in a way contrary to what we would like. Is it really necessary to throw a tantrum? I hope you don’t all act like this in real life. But somehow the fact that no one can see your face empowers you to act like assholes. Grow up.
November 16th, 2009 at 1:46 am
You and your site are great jfrater. Take it as a compliment that people get this passionate about it.
November 16th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Or you and your site are a joke. We stop here for 5 mins to kill some boredom at work and then usually move on to an intelligent site. I do applaud you for leaving the door at Wal-Mart and starting your own nifty website from the same cookie cutter every other blog uses. Maybe someday you’ll actually contribute something with a little more substance.
November 16th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Well, I enjoy stopping here every morning. @ (569) you can criticize JFrater and insult him, but you visited this site too. Long enough to make a comment anyway.
Keep up the good work!
November 17th, 2009 at 10:29 am
I have always loved your work Frater. And I do not think that the list being published was your fault. All top 10 lists are subjective, and I’m sorry it escalated to nonsensical bickering to the point where you had to remove it. I don’t blame you for posting it and I don’t blame you for removing it. Keep doing what you’re doing, and don’t let the haters stop you
November 17th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
THINK before you post anything.
Get your facts 100% right.
And do not hijack one list for a cause.
November 17th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
@OR: you little bitch! such a hypocrite… nobody gives a shit about your opinion specially when it adds little substance… go and unload your frustrations elsewhere! and i doubt your too intelligent for this site in fact i think your just commenting to substitute for your lack of character and intelligence!
November 17th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
“The Monsters are Due on Maple Street”
get it?
November 18th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
“nobody builds monuments for critics”
i think that list of yours is very brave. abortion is a sensitive topic, for the pros and the cons. you can rank anything or anyone to be your number 1 and most likely somebody who think they are someone can just criticize your opinion. nobody can blame us on having a 10 cent for everything. you didn’t have to apologize to anyone.
November 19th, 2009 at 1:23 am
Jfrater you have no reason to say sorry you did nothing wrong… You can not help the way people act hell I love the list that get everyone fired up it add for good reading.. Hell if anything we all should thank you for this wonderful site I feel I am 2% smarter then before…(If I didn’t kill so many cells smoking I would remember what I read)
hehehehehe
November 19th, 2009 at 10:23 am
if you weren’t such a tool you wouldn’t have these problems
November 19th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
You are so sweet to apologise. AW!
November 20th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
That was a controversial matter. But you do not have to apologize. What you do have to apologize is for not putting AK47 as the greatest weapon ever. That is insulting to people’s inteligence, everyone who studied weapons agree with me. And you compare the greatest weapon in the history with what I consider to be a joke.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Everyone makes mistakes and it’s OK. But the one with weapons I will never accept, because it is deliberately false. You know the pocket-pistol-joke of yours should not make the list at all. It is there because is american.
November 21st, 2009 at 9:35 pm
i didn’t see the list, but it is my opinion that removing the list as a reaction to negative criticism is effectually succumbing to a form of censorship.
Don’t bow to those who take offense. Maintain your ground.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:51 am
Holy cannoli, not only has it been stated dozens of times, some smarty pants even used html tags to BOLD the words as well. It still didn’t get their attention! I’m drunk right now and I still had the presence to read the comments… because I didn’t read the list.
It wasn’t pulled simply because people spontaneously lose all control of their bowels at the mention of abortion, it’s because the list itself was factually incorrect and intended to cause shitting of the pants. He played you and loved it, and you’re continuing it.
*So says the dumbass trying to point out what so many others have tried(more eloquently, for sure[and with BOLD letters oh shit]) and failed at doing, 536 posts back.*
Hamsters bite pretty hard btw. Don’t be fooled by the cyuuute.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
(545) = I agree completely. It seemed like all the author of the list wanted to do was stir political shit and did so. Then JF ’stepped up’ and got rid of it. The numbers were false, yes, and I suppose some editing needed to be done, but by promoting censorship on a site that had in the past embraced contriversy, it seems like in trying to appease the butthurt, he blew off those who were just here for entertainment . . .
This is one of the reasons why I visit cracked.com more that this site nowadays.
TO JF DIRECTLY: You did what you felt needed to be done. Kudos. No one blames you for that.
Why apologize and bring attention to it in the first place?
November 25th, 2009 at 6:24 am
why do people have to whine so much if the read something they don`t like? if i find an article that offends me i simply leave the site or read something else.
November 25th, 2009 at 7:27 am
Hey Jfrat! Not your fault. I’m sorry some people take offense too much and forget that opinions are opinions… not always fact.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
I think there are too many whiney assholes that post on ur site. You should never have to delete something off OF YOUR OWN SITE. It’s ridiciulous. Sensitive people are destroying the world.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
BRING THE LIST BACK!!!!!!!!!
December 3rd, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Omg I want to see the list? What was so controversial about it? You put abortion as #1 or what? I’m pro choice but you should have the guts and stand up to your opinion. I mean your list on Islam isn’t any better.
December 5th, 2009 at 11:51 am
If your offended by a list, give your opinion, but don’t shut down the whole thing for everybody else just because of your personal insecurities.
December 13th, 2009 at 2:13 am
U have no balls, total faggot, so a bunch of babies starts to cry and u go all sorry…it must suck to be u man, ur dad haven’t teached u how to stand up for yourself?
January 7th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
ur dad hvnt teked u hao 2 spel?
January 23rd, 2010 at 1:25 am
As a huge fan of your totally awesome lists, I would love it if you could send me the list by email! Can you? please??!! I never even got a chance to read it!