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Top 10 Conspiracy Theories

Jamie Frater . . . Comments

Everyone enjoys hearing about a good conspiracy theory and many people enjoy coming up with new ones. You can spend an incredible amount of time reading about theories and wondering if there is any truth to them. This list is the top 10 conspiracy theories. If you feel that I have left off your favourite, or have proof that any of these are not just theory but fact, post a comment, just remember: don’t be cruel!

1. 9/11 was Planned by the US Government [Wikpedia]


Many conspiracy theories have been presented concerning the September 11, 2001 attacks, many of them claiming that President George W. Bush and/or individuals in his administration knew about the attacks beforehand and purposefully allowed them to occur because the attacks would generate public support for militarization, expansion of the police state, and other intrusive foreign and domestic policies by which they would benefit.

Proponents point to the Project for the New American Century, a conservative think tank that argues for increased American global leadership, whose former members include ex-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Vice President Dick Cheney and several other key Bush administration figures. An 1990 report from the group stated that “some catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor” would be needed to budge public opinion in their favor.

2. UFO Recovered at Roswell [Wikpedia]


The Roswell UFO Incident involved the recovery of materials near Roswell, New Mexico, USA, in July 1947, which have since become the subject of intense speculation, rumor, questioning and research. There are widely divergent views on what actually happened, and passionate debate about what evidence can be believed. The United States military maintains that what was recovered was a top-secret research balloon that had crashed.

By the early 1990s, UFO researchers such as Friedman, William Moore, Karl Pflock, and the team of Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt had interviewed several hundred people [11] who had, or claimed to have had, a connection with the events at Roswell in 1947. Additionally, hundreds of documents were obtained via Freedom of Information Act requests, as were some apparently leaked by insiders, such as the disputed “Majestic 12” documents. Their conclusions were that at least one alien craft had crashed in the Roswell vicinity, that aliens, some possibly still alive, were recovered, and that a massive cover-up of any knowledge of the incident was put in place.

3. John F. Kennedy’s Assasination [Wikpedia]


The assassination of John F. Kennedy, the thirty-fifth President of the United States, took place on Friday, November 22, 1963, in Dallas, Texas, USA at 12:30 p.m. CST (18:30 UTC). Kennedy was fatally wounded by gunshots while riding with his wife Jacqueline in a presidential motorcade through Dealey Plaza. The official investigation by the Warren Commission was conducted over a ten-month period, and its report was published in September 1964. The Commission concluded that the assassination was carried out solely by Lee Harvey Oswald, an employee of the Texas School Book Depository in Dealey Plaza.

A number of conspiracy theories exist with regard to the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. Such theories began to be generated soon after his death, and continue to be proposed today. Many of these theories propose a criminal conspiracy involving parties such as the Federal Reserve, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the KGB, the Mafia, Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) director J. Edgar Hoover, Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon, Fidel Castro, George H. W. Bush, Cuban exile groups opposed to the Castro government and the military and/or government interests of the United States.

4. Global Warming is a Fraud [Wikpedia]


The suggestion of a conspiracy to promote the theory of global warming was put forward in a 1990 documentary The Greenhouse Conspiracy broadcast by Channel Four in the United Kingdom on 12 August 1990, as part of the Equinox series, which asserted that scientists critical of global warming theory were denied funding.

William Gray, phD (a pioneer in the science of hurricane forecasting) has made a list of 15 reasons for the global warming hysteria. The list includes the need to come up with an enemy after the end of the Cold War, and the desire among scientists, government leaders and environmentalists to find a political cause that would enable them to ‘organize, propagandize, force conformity and exercise political influence. Big world government could best lead (and control) us to a better world!’ In this article, Gray also cites the ascendancy of Al Gore to the vice presidency as the start of his problems with federal funding. According to him, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration stopped giving him research grants, and so did NASA.

5. Princess Diana was Murdered by the Royal Family [Wikpedia]


In 1997, Princess Diana (Princess of Wales) and Dodi Fayed (son of Mohamed Fayed, owner of the Ritz Hotel and Harrods) were killed in a car accident while trying to get away from press photographers in Paris. The scandal surrounding their relationship (Dodi was Muslim whilst Diana was the mother of the future head of the Church of England) has led many people to speculate that they were actually killed in order to prevent further scandal to the throne of England.

Polls suggest that around a quarter of the UK public, and a majority of people in some Arab countries, believe that there was a plot to murder Diana, Princess of Wales. Motivations which have been advanced for such a conspiracy include suggestions that Diana intended to marry Dodi Fayed, that she intended to convert to Islam, that she was pregnant, and that she was to visit the holy land. Organizations which conspiracy theorists suggest are responsible for her death have included French Intelligence, the British Royal Family, the press, the British Intelligence services MI5 or MI6, the CIA, Mossad, the Freemasons, or the IRA.

6. Jewish World Domination [Wikpedia]

060911-Zion Big

This theory, in recent history, extends mainly from the booklet The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which are widely considered to be the beginning of contemporary conspiracy theory literature. The Protocols are considered by some to be an anti-Jewish literary forgery that purports to describe a Jewish plot to achieve world domination. Numerous independent investigations have repeatedly proven it to be a plagiarism and a hoax, yet numerous independent investigations have shown it to be a factual document.

The text was popularized by those opposed to Russian revolutionary movement, and was disseminated further after the revolution of 1905, becoming known worldwide after the 1917 October Revolution. It was widely circulated in the West in 1920 and thereafter. The Great Depression and the rise of Nazism were important developments in the history of the Protocols.

7. Apollo Moon Landing Hoax [Wikpedia]

Christianlogic Image Moon B

Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations are claims that some or all elements of the Apollo Moon landings were faked by NASA and possibly members of other involved organizations. Some groups and individuals have advanced alternate historical narratives which tend, to varying degrees, to state that the Apollo Astronauts did not land on the moon, and that NASA created and continues to perpetuate this hoax.

Moon hoax proponents devote a substantial portion of their efforts to examining NASA photos. They point to various issues with photographs and films purportedly taken on the Moon. Experts in photography (even those unrelated to NASA) respond that the anomalies, while sometimes counterintuitive, are in fact precisely what one would expect from a real Moon landing, and contrary to what would occur with manipulated or studio imagery. Hoax proponents also state that whistleblowers may have deliberately manipulated the NASA photos in hope of exposing NASA.

8. Pearl Harbor Was Allowed to Happen [Wikpedia]


This theory states that President Roosevelt (FDR) provoked the attack, knew about it in advance and covered up his failure to warn the Hawaiian commanders. FDR needed the attack to sucker Hitler to declare war, since the public and Congress were overwhelmingly against entering the war in Europe. It was his backdoor to war.

Theorists believe that the US was warned by, at least, the governments of Britain, Netherlands, Australia, Peru, Korea and the Soviet Union that a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was coming. All important Japanese codes were broken. FDR and Marshall and others knew the attack was coming, allowed it and covered up their knowledge.

9. The Third Secret of Fatima [Wikpedia]


The Three Secrets of Fatima are said to be three prophecies that were given by an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young Portuguese shepherds, Lucia Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto. From May to October, 1917, the three children claimed to have witnessed this Marian apparition, which is today popularly described as Our Lady of Fatima. On July 13 the Virgin Mary is said to have entrusted the three secrets – in the form of prophecies – to the young visionaries. Two of the secrets were revealed in 1941 in a document written by Lucia to assist with the canonization of her cousins, while the third was to remain secret, although the bishop of Leiria commanded Lucia to put it in writing and to present it to the Pope.

A Catholic priest who has apparently seen the original text of the “third secret” of Fatima disputes the official interpretation of the secret released by the Vatican. Furthermore, he has asked key people in the Vatican about the text and has gotten no response. While the Priest’s comments are somewhat radical, they are not without merit, as he has seen the secret with his own eyes. Moreover, while the first 2 secrets are fairly obvious and clear, leading some to wonder why the third one is required to be examined by a team of experts because of its complexity.

10. The Philadelphia Experiment [Wikpedia]


The Philadelphia Experiment was an alleged naval military experiment at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, sometime around the date of October 28, 1943, in which the U.S. destroyer escort USS Eldridge was to be rendered invisible to human observers for a brief period of time. It is also referred to as Project Rainbow. The story is widely regarded as a hoax. The U.S. Navy has stated that the experiment never occurred, and furthermore, details of the story contradict stated facts about the Eldridge. It has nonetheless caused a significant ripple effect in many conspiracy theory circles, and elements of the Philadelphia Experiment are featured in many other government conspiracy theories.

According to some accounts, the experiment was conducted by a Dr. Franklin Reno (or Rinehart) as a military application of a Unified Field Theory. The theory, briefly, postulates the interrelated nature of the forces that comprise electromagnetic radiation and gravity. Through a special application of the theory, it was thought possible, with specialized equipment and sufficient energy, to bend light around an object in such a way as to render it essentially invisible to observers. The Navy considered this application of the theory to be of obvious military value (especially as the United States was engaged in World War II at the time) and both approved and sponsored the experiment. A navy destroyer escort, the USS Eldridge, was fitted with the required equipment at the naval yards in Philadelphia.

Read the book that covers this entire fascinating conspiracy theory: The Philadelphia Experiment: Project Invisibility at!

Note: There are so many conspiracy theories that this would be an unwieldy list if I included them all. Stay tuned for a second Conspiracy Theories list in the future.

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Jamie Frater

Jamie is the owner and chief-editor of Listverse. He spends his time working on the site, doing research for new lists, and collecting oddities. He is fascinated with all things historic, creepy, and bizarre.

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  • dalandzadgad

    ^^ truth is stranger than fiction.

    really good list. i think you hit all the major and interesting ones.

  • I might be ignorant on this issue but I find it hard to believe that a modern president will allow hundreds or thousands innocent people to be killed just to fulfill their ideals – like the Towers and Pearl Harbor.

    • Ros

      To you it might seems bizarre, but when it comes world domination – you can not attach emotion to such choices. Go do more digging and you will see for yourself.

    • LILY

      I believe you should research the fact NORAD stood down and didn't shoot planes from the sky, look into the fact that bombs were hear going off in the trade centres beforehand by the custodians. How the firefighters discovered molten lava in the buildings and that jet fuel cannot burn that hot. Possibly look into the fact that building 7 mysteriously was reported to have fallen even though it was in the shot behind the newsreader reporting the story, the fact that it was never hit by a plane yet mysteriously fell at free fall speed onto itself and not touching the builldings surrounding. Oh, also, check out the fact that Larry Silverstein made sure the rubble was taken away in less than a fortnight. Ha the biggest "crime in history:" and he makes sure the evidence is gone before anyone can make a report. Just so you aren't 'ignorant on the issue'

      • Mark

        I am a big believer that the government were involved inthe 9/11 attacks, however the one thing i would say is that what you have said here about jet fuel not burning that hot, etc. It has been prooved on a number of documentaries that the fuel does burn that hot, I’m not saying this to cause arguments, just helping out a fellow believer. Oh and by the way another great example of the governement being in on it is the only way for the towers to have gone down how they had would have been explosives in certain areas of the building, such as the lift shafts. 2 Weeks prior to the attacks, the lifts were closed off due to ‘maintenance’. Very interesting. Oh and by the way, the moon landings never happened! Shadows, wind…….. List is endless

        • The One Anonymous

          If you guys didn’t know already, the hospital my mom works at was doing drills a couple of weeks before the 9/11 attacks. The drills were what to do in case of an attack on the towers. I find that to be very suspicious.

        • scorpion

          Hi Mark aviation fuel burns at aprox 1000 degree’s
          To melt the steel gurders in the Towers it would have to be 1800+ degree’s
          So there is no way the fuel melted them. Also you would have to agree with Lily 25th june 2010 the building the reporter was comenting on (That she stated had collapsed WTC7) was in fact in plain view still standing behind her.
          And last but certainly not least when she was supposed to be live in Manhaton doing a live report she was talkin to the newsdesk anchorman all of a sudden the feed went down, the anchorman then appollogised and said we will get back to (whatever her name was) in downtown manhaton as soon as possible. WELL so what i hear you say ?? Well here’s the problem that aprox 5-10 secs later she is seen in camera shot at the back of the studio where the anchorman was sat. Strange how she can be in 2 places at the same time ?????????

          • p1t1o

            First off, structural components do not have to melt, steel loses a very large portion of its strength as temperature rises, in an 800-1000degree fire it would be significantly weaker. It has been shown that this was enough to cause catastrophic failure and collapse. Secondly, in a fire that intense, things that would not be normally considered a fire risk can catch fire (aluminium, for example, burns hot enough to melt concrete) and burn at high temperatures, especially if air is freely available.

            It has also been shown that buildings nearby were strongly affected by what was effectively an earthquake caused by the collapse of the towers – you know when the ground shake whne an underground train or a bus goes by? Now imagine that bus is a giant skyscraper falling from the sky.

            I’m not saying “the government was not involved” I’m just saying that if you don’t understand how something works, doesn’t mean you can assign your own explanation.

            As for the anchorwoman? Pfffft I dunno….bluescreen?

          • chris

            u should also take into account every and anything that is explosive or flammable in that whole situation. i don’t believe the government would have set that up for any reason. and i could be wrong be but any force that cripples something strong as that steel will automatically be weakened. there is more variables that probably helped the steel weaken that we r unaware of. of course this is just what i think.

        • Anon

          Myth busters proved that most claims about how the moon landing is faked are false.

      • Josh Deason

        wow. you are an idiot if you really think that our christian conservative president staged this attack. you are soo stupid you need to find the closest hole and crawl in it.

        • Casper

          When you don’t know the truth, anything can be true.

          You are just as much an idiot for believing the opposite.

        • Prometeo III

          speaking about christianity… who supported the Cruzades between XI and XV century? Who supported the witch hunting? Who kill 97.000.000 of native americans around XV and XVII century “in the holy name of Jesus Christ”? So tink twice when tink in yous chistianity!!!!

          • corey

            you cant blame Christians in general for that it’s like saying all atheists are dicks who try to point out everything that is wrong with religion trying in a vain attempt to make themselves look better

      • Mseals29

        First off, NO ONE reported molten lava. Lol that comes from volcanos. Another thing is, jet fuel was NOT the only thing burning in those building. There were a whole lot crap in there burning. The jet fuel was just what started it. Last, have you ever been in a burning high rise? I have. There are all kinds of noises that sound like bombs going off. Restaurants in those buildings had natural gas lines. The planes cutting elevator cables, ever heard an elevator hit the ground from 50 or so floors up? BOOM. Computer monitors on fire will blow. I think you get the idea. Do I believe something was fishing about 9/11. Bet your ass I do. Let us FIRST do some logical thinking first before we point fingers. Our government along with every government out there is corrupt. Does not mean that they are behind EVERY bad thing that happens in the world.

        • peace


          Ever heard of elevator brakes? This is a standart equipment, they were developped by Otis in 1852 and they work automatically. Tsk-tsk-tsk, people sometimes trust too much unto movies…

          “Elevators have electromagnetic brakes that engage when the car comes to a stop. The electromagnets actually keep the brakes in the open position, instead of closing them. With this design, the brakes will automatically clamp shut if the elevator loses power.

          Elevators also have automatic braking systems near the top and the bottom of the elevator shaft. If the elevator car moves too far in either direction, the brake brings it to a stop.”

          • p1t1o

            Good point, still, that doesn’t prevent anything else from falling down the elevator shaft, and there are plenty other things around to make anomalous noises.

          • schizophrenic

            what youre sayin holds true if the building is standing and intact. the shaft intact. but the wtc at the time was not intact… even now! hahahah ….you seemed to have googled about who invented what and when.. but you really dont understand the situation… tsk tsk tsk… maybe youre the one is in too much sci-fi… imagining floating elevators.. whattadumbass!

        • Arthur Moore

          molten lava was the description of Thermite present for a significant time AFTER the attacks. Also, notice how the beams that were standing had a right angle cut, which is standard practice at demolition. As for the explosion, that was reported in the basement BEFORE the attacks. NORAD was holding hijack scenarios at the same time, and WTC7 collapsed without being touched. Also the Pentagon’s lawn was covered over just after the attack, kinda odd for a terrorist crime scene. Not to mention that a lot of money had been made over by a Pakistani official to the leader of the terrorists months before, and that same official was meeting US officials on the day of the attacks, and did I mention how all planes that day were grounded, except for a plane carrying Saudi’s including members of the Bin Laden family which were helped out of the country by the president.

          • p1t1o

            I don’t understand this sentence:

            “molten lava was the description of Thermite present for a significant time AFTER the attacks.”

            Also, covering up a crime scene surely is not unreasonable? To prevent contamination or theft of evidence and suchlike? Especially if it was a large open space like a lawn. I mean, I’m not a crime scene specialist or whatever but this wouldn’t raise my eyebrows.

            PS: when I came on just now the box said “666 comments”, oooooh spooky :)

          • Anonymous

            You people are pathetic and have way to much time on your hands to read a bunch of crap on the internet about a conspiracy and just take it as undisputed truth when none of you have done any actual research yourselves. Just because someone writes something doesn’t make it fact. The government had nothing to do with 9/11. Stop spending all your time on Wikipedia and try going for a jog or something.

          • So many pathetic people out there. You can get morons to believe in things like the world ending tomorrow so they should commit suicide and there are a TON of them. The people who state ridiculous things they cut from the internet and paste them as if they are facts for no other reason than because idiots SAY it’s true are just plain sad. It really helps one understand how people blindly followed Adolph Hitler, Jim Jones, the heaven’s gate cult, etc, etc. There are a lot of stupid people out there who will latch on to ANY idea. Lost souls.

      • GummyDumb

        I don’t believe that but I’m not gonna argue with you, just let you know that if the american people ever found this to be the absolute truth I’m pretty sure that mob justice would be the only justice for those who where involved

      • Andrew

        What about the Pentagon. It was suposedly hit by a plane, but if you look at any picture, you see that the damaged part looks like a semi- circle that had been taken out. No area where wings hit the building. and the workers said they heard an explosion from a bomb. PLUS this happened a few days after the govt released papers and stuff on funding and all the money crap. that area contained all of those documents.

    • Joe Dirt

      To understand how such Kings, Queens, Bishops, Presidents, Politicians and other various leaders would do such things as kill (inflict or sustain "casualties" if you will) you must play the game of Chess first. The saying, "you cannot make and omelet without breaking a few eggs." should clear it up even further for you. Don't swim in the pools of naivity too long lest you find yourself stripped naked and shaved in order to work for the wolves.

    • Jim

      Bah Bah…….

    • kit

      you are right, no president would kill that many of his own people for "world domination". this history channel did a great job in putting of the conspiracies to rest. take a look at it. you are not ignorant.

    • kaan

      you are right no president will allow hundreds or thousands for "world domination ",
      but will do anything to be elected in the next term,
      power always corrupts and is addictive like a drug even the best of men can do horrible things just to preserve power

    • thehomelessman

      Money and Power corrupts people… some would let the world burn to have an extra couple of bucks

      • Bob

        I love how you people call the guy who doesn’t buy the obvious bullshit about 9/11 naive and ignorant. And jezus, stop trying to sound so deep and smart. “Don’t swim in the pools of naivity too long lest you find yourself stripped naked and shaved in order to work for the wolves” What the fuck does that even mean?


        If the U.S. government was behind 9/11, alot of people would know, because they would need alot of people to help them do such a thing, now, all those atleast 5000 people would need to be fine with killing thousands of their fellow countrymen for some money. How much would you need before you’d be quiet about something like that? A million? Two? That’s alot of money times 5000. Not to mention that these people would HAVE TO BE OK WITH KILLING THEIR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN, and could never ever let anybody know they had anything to do with it, not even their loved ones. And they’d have to keep it a secret for the rest of their lives. Now any rational thinking person can see how unfeasable and incredibly unlikely this is. And please keep in mind these are only some of the reasons that wouldn’t allow such a thing to happen. If you “do some digging” like Ros said (which he obviously hasn’t done himself) you’ll find lots of reasons for why this could never happen.

        And obviously you people saw something like that Loose Change bullshit, and instantly believed it. Talk about naivity. Do your own research, and don’t be biased while you do it, then you’ll find the truth.

        • William

          The Open Civil Engineering Journal

          I suggest you search their database for 9/11 and find out what professional engineers say is impossible…truth hurts!

        • luke

          Just so you know, 5 Trillion was reported to have ‘gone missing’ the day before the attacks….Now what were you saying?

          • Anon

            and so you believed it instantly? boo…

          • p1t1o

            Lets imagine that is true, if you were an evil genius, and wanted to knock down the WTC, why on earth would you pay so much money for it? How on earth would that be worth your while?

            Ridiculous claim.

            At the very least it’d be ridiculous to believe it just because “it is reported”, I’m not saying you need to see hardcopy bank statements, but SOMETHING corroborative would be useful. And that goes for everything else too.

        • DAVE

          one word MK-ULTRA

          • p1t1o

            Here’s another one: Flange.

    • Ha

      Look into the Tonkin Incident, that might be a bit of an eye-opener for you. The incident that got the US into Vietnam. It is a confirmed false-flag.

    • Mike

      Why is it hard to believe? Those people that were killed didnt affect Bush or FDR in any way, and it gave them a great reason to go to war. I dont know how I feel about pearl harbor yet. Ill have to read some more, but I most certainly belive 9/11 was was an inside job. Do you realize that every since then our government has overthrown several middle eastern leaders and taken over countries. Just for oil. Any other countries that have no use to our government just rot away. There are so many starving people right here, and the gov is spending millions of dollars each day to rebuild what they destroyed. If you see that the price of oil per barrel is 80 dollars you better belive our gov is getting it cheaper and making money off us by selling it higher. Thats a whole different conspiracy. Does anyone know that all the rubble from the towers was flown to china and burned, thats a fact not a rumor.

      • p1t1o

        “Just for oil” is a fairly naive assumption. Only a small fraction of America’s oil comes from the middles east. The vast majority comes from mainland USA, Canada and Mexico.
        Erm..and of course oil is sold for profit..thats er…how the world works?

        And its hard to believe someone could condone the killing of thousands of people…because killing thousands of people is bad, hellooo? If killing someone wouldnt affect you in the slightest, would *you* do it?

        I can’t say I can read peoples minds, hell the goverment could be full of sadistic phsychos who went to war just to see the video footage.

        But that is, like that guy says, hard to believe. Not saying one way or the other, because I can’t, but I CAN say its hard to believe.

        Harder for me to believe than being surrounded by smoke-and-mirror underhand operations that would be harder to pull off than a hoaxed moon landing.

        Dont get me wrong here, governments (all governments, in fact, all groups anywhere with power over others) generate corruption within themselves – that is part of the human condition, unfortunately. But seeing corruption everywhere you look (largely to make oneself feel better: “I’m obviously enlightened because I can see things others can’t!”) simply blinds you to the real world.

        If you believe one of these theories, I cannot, in all honesty, challenge you that much, because I only have access to the same information that you do.

        All i ask of the human race is that, when goiven an incomplete picture (and no picture is complete, really) try and see more than one explanation. Assuming that your own opinion is always the right one is the height of arrogance and only leads to more grief (and corruption) for everyone.

        Oh, and it makes it easier for the people that REALLY ARE corrupt to do their business.

        So you can have your opinion, but logically, you must recognise the possibility that its not the right one, even though you think it is.

        If you can give me one idea, or piece of evidence, that supports the OPPOSITE side to your view, then, for my part, I will heap credibility upon you.

        BTW, in all of the above, when I say “you” I mean the collective “you” that refers to everyone.

        • f

          Personally, I have no opinion on 9/11. It happened and we are living with the consequences, whether it be government sponsored terrorism or not. I do however applaud this sort of debate, I am happy to see people questioning what they have been told. I don’t care if what they say is wrong etc, but I am just happy to see people questioning something. This is basic journalism, research and questioning of official reports. I agree that more than one explanation should be considered. It is easy to say “BECOZ WE R RULED BY JEWZ!” but much harder to consider why the government would come up with a plan like this anyway.

          And as for saying that the people could not cover it up as they would have to be ok killing fellow countrymen. It is called the greater good. The Soviets killed many of their own people, and were fine with it and kept it under wraps. To get a higher up position in a US government department you have to be willing to do whatever they say and be so pro-USA that you would not question a thing like that. Government officials are not the type to come on the internet and argue in comment sections.

    • Carolyn Compton

      You should do your research. You’ll find a lot to be hard to believe in but trust in the people not the government. The government is dirty and they lie far to often. It’s all for the money though.

      • p1t1o

        Right, people are so trustworthy.

  • Andre: some conspiracy theories are so outlandish that it is hard to believe anyone even remotely considers them true – I think the Philadelphia Experiment falls into that category.

    dalandzadgad: Thanks :) I will do another one in the future because there are just so many out there!

    • Stejay

      How do you know exactly that the book of Abraham "By Joseph smith" is false.

  • Dan

    Princess Diana died in ’97, not 2001. Just wanted to point that out. Nice list, though.

  • Thanks Dan – I have corrected that error.

  • mix2323

    i think UFOs are a product of are govt and area 51 is a place where they do illegal cloning and gene splicing why else would they keep it a secret and aliens are a cover up for what they are doing

    • caz 78

      have u thought that maybe they r gene splicing WITH the aliens to create a new race.

      • al

        most ignorant comment of all time

    • chris

      maybe because its a MILITARY BASE. do u know everything thing that happens in any other base?

  • Crimanon

    Thank you for not doing the whole “flouride in the tooth paste” bit. Makes my theories look normal. At the moment I’m too tried to try.

    Mix: Area 51 has been out of service for about Five years. The word getting out and all. They moved their “Research” to other places. They don’t even stop you from walking around anymore.

  • mix2323

    yea thats what i heard kind of cool i would like to go check it out some time

  • Crimanon

    The Lil Probe diner needs business. They could retire with what they made over the years, but they love the place too much. Personal, I’d like to go out on the sands. See the hangers. And take my bike down the runway, Hell buy it and turn it into a street racing haven. 5 miles of runway!!!!

  • mix2323

    you could make bank hold comps and races

  • Pingback: Deadly Computer Blog » Some Conspiracies to think about()

  • Bret

    Global warming is a fraud. Whether or not it is a “conspiracy” remains a question.

    • davidkramer

      Really? What is your evidence for that? You may want to check my blog:

    • drakecennedig


      Freighters haul goods between Europe and Japan in the summer across the northern Russian coast, and global warming is the fraud? Fox News is funded by the News Corporation, a corporate conglomerate that just so happens to be the primary investor in Nosotek, a North Korean video game company. Literally, the same people who invest in hyper-communist dictatorships are making millions off rabid right-wing media. But of course, its global warming that’s the fraud.


  • Jane nolan

    I’d like to see a follow up list: Racial Conspiracies. Did you know 1 in 3 black people believes that HIV was created by the US government? (this is consistent in multiple polls)

  • James

    Kurt Cobains death not being a suicide.

  • Crimanon

    James: That would hardly count as Significant enough to be on here. One man of music, With problems vs. World leaders, with Influence. What did Kurts death bring? A jump in revenue by the fans and a whole bunch of potheads going “Damn Dude.” Diana and Kennedy, had significant influence in world issues. Comparing Kurt to Lady Di or JFK, would be like comparing an organge to a Multi vitamin. Which one do you care about, the tasty one or the Important one. I’m not saying there wasn’t something wrong with the investigation, but in the Grand scheme of things, Who Cares?

  • Crimanon

    And before you get all huffy about it. I’m a big fan of Kurt, and an strong supporter of marijuana legalization. I just have a better perspective than others of my age.

  • Fe

    Bret, whether or not global warming is a fraud or a conspiracy, it is easy to see that humans are inflicting significant damage to our planet. If it takes a 'fraud' to make people wise up to the harm we are causing through pollution and overpopulation, then sign me up as a believer in global warming.

    • ur dumb

      lol idiot

      • Alli

        Says the guy who spells “you’re” as “ur.”

  • Thanks for the comments guys – I didn't realise this would be a controversial topic :)

    I definitely plan to do another conspiracy list because there are so many of them.

  • James

    Sorry Crimanon i didnt mean anything bad by it i just thought it was something kind of interesting.

  • James: It’s nothing you did wrong exactly, it’s a perspective thing. One of the things I do in my free time is Rant and yell about things. One of my favorite sayings that sums up how I feel about the world, “Kids these days.”
    Thats really bad concidering my age. I’m younger that you think and older than I look. I’m a little more Intense when it comes to the spiraling intellegence that is America. Hell in a hand basket and all that. It’s nothing directed At you, just more of my personal commentary on life.

  • James


  • i like to put all conspiracies on my weird shit-o-meter. all of these are things that , if you found out they were true, wouldnt completely blow your mind.

    as for kurt cobain…all you need to do is listen to courtney love for a while and you can understand why he killed himself

  • You know – I just realised, number 9 would be perfect for the Top 10 Incorrupt Corpses – I forgot all about her when I wrote the list.

  • Carl

    I’d say that Global warming is past the conspiracy theory stage. Anybody who is competent enough to think for themselves and do a little research of their own can figure out that there is no correlation between human produced CO2 and climate. The evidence is simply in contradiction to this oft repeated lie. Global warming is simply a political devise used to manipulate and control the population. (well, actually that last sentence was a conspiracy theory. lol)

  • Carl

    Fe, The Lie that CO2 is harmful and it’s recent classification as a pollutant is downright scary. Do you realize that you exhale CO2. The headlines of tomorrow might read “Reduce Human Emissions!!!”

    Think about the implications of this position before you support it.

    Anyhow, Reducing CO2 could be very counterproductive environmentally. If you recall your elementary level biology you might remember that CO2 is the equivalent to oxygen for plants. Increases in CO2 Increases the growth rate of plant life. Commercial greenhouse operations pump CO2 into their greenhouses to increase crop yield!

    Tell me, If CO2 does not cause “harmful global warming” (it does not) then why would we want to reduce it?

  • Stefan d

    Global Warming is not real. i live in fucking alaska i know my fucking shit, its just a bunch of bull shit, the media likes scaring people so they have something to write about, there really isnt enough evidence of human caused warming or any warming at all, just 1 or 2 degree’s since 1900 which can be attributed to natural climate cycles or The Urban Island Heating Effect, which states that cities are warmer because of the tons of concrete and cars and just stuff in general, so weather stations in cities are just inaccurate because of this.

  • It’s a good list, but I think given the ongoing scandals regarding the entrance into Afghanistan and Iraq, you should let the 9/11 one play out till the end of Bush’s term before retiring it to the land of conspiracy theories.

  • fermie


  • Great comments everyone – thanks :)

  • Chris

    and we all know Bush just hates us and America and wants to kill Americans and make himself look good. NOT, wow i’m glad you elected a leader and blame him for every single one of the world’s faults. why don’t we just put Hillary Clinton in the White House so she can magically “fix” all of our problems. yep that would fix it you assholes. pull your head out of your asses and live in reality

  • To think that Any political leader is doing anything Entirely for the good for their country is Just Plain Blind. Political motivations are just a fancy way of saying “you’ll do it my way.” The Illuminati are just as bad as Scientologists. New World Order has to start with chaos. And what better way to get it, then to attack the strongest city/nation in the world. Stop Watching so much Damned Fox News and read between the lines.

    Prepair for the worst, Hope for the best.

    • JimNEPA

      It's 3 years later, and Crimanon is wrong about one point. It should be "Stop Watching so much Damned MSNBC and CNN and read between the lines. And check out Glenn Beck on Fox News." Glenn is doing a fine job of connecting the damn dots and explaining what in hell's name is going on and why. (Glenn Beck haters are invited to watch his show, do their own research, and then criticize or –gasp!– catch themselves thinking "Holy crap! He was right!")

  • It still amazes me that people make a big deal about the “secrets” at Area 51. Do you really think that if the government wanted to keep a military base secret, they wouldn’t be able? There are probably a lot of US military bases, scattered all over the world, that we will never know about. And, everyone still thinks they’d be stupid enough to hide things at Area 51.

  • Dr. Stubing

    Dear Dr. Stefan d:

    Thank you for clearing that up for me. I shall put to rest all further debate on Global Warming because you live in Alaska and “you know your shit”. I await your dissertation on microbiology next year.

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  • soonerproud

    Most scientist do believe Global Warming is real. The split comes on the issue of is it a man made phenomenon or is it a natural process. I personally believe it is a natural process.

    The Little Ice Age ended in the 1850’s. This current warming trend is a continuation of that natural process. The Middle Ages were relatively warmer than it is today. The climate has had these cycles for billions of years before a human being was ever on the face of the Earth.

    Human caused Global Warming is a political issue and not entirely based on scientific evidence. When one looks at the facts objectively it becomes apparent that scientist aren’t completely sure what the causes of the current warming trend are. However the evidence strongly suggest that increased solar activity may be behind the current cycle. Melting polar ice caps on Mars lends a lot of credibility to this theory.

    However, it is still not a good thing to be pumping so many pollutants into the air. Regardless if Global Warming is natural or man made we need to find cleaner, more sustainable sources of energy than carbon based fuels. The other effects of the pollutants we release in the air are not healthy for both the plants and the animals of the Earth. Sustainable sources of energy would also have the side effect of reducing nations dependence on foreign energy sources. This will mean less conflicts between nations and possibly less wars.

  • soonerproud: that is very nicely put – thank you for that comment.

  • #12. Jane nolan said:
    Did you know 1 in 3 black people believes that HIV was created by the US government?

    I am no black, but I also believe the HIV was created by humans. And the lab rats they use for creation, were African people.

    • Mr. Quincy

      Are you a moron? How deep in your @$$ did you have to reach your arm to pull out that number? Up to your elbow? All the way to your shoulder blade? Stop stating statistics you can't even prove.

      I'm black and I don't know ANYBODY that believes that HIV was created by the Government. I know plenty of people who wouldn't put it pass them, myself included, but there's no evidence either way so HOW would you know?

      Being reasonably suspicious of government is not the same as being a conspiracy theorist. There is precedent for so-called authority figures medically experimenting on black people, the god damn Tuskegee Experiment. Unlike the Philadelphia Experiment that's historical fact instead of hysterical fiction.

  • Özhan – just out of interest may I ask what you base your belief in? This is actually a theory I have not heard before and it is interesting that so many people obviously hold to it.

  • K. Donovan

    Hey, doofus:

    The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Russian: “????????? ???????? ????????”, or “???????? ?????????”, see also other titles) is an antisemitic text that purports to describe a Jewish and Masonic plot to achieve world domination. It is one of the most well known and discussed examples of literary forgery.

    From the very Wikipedia entry you cite. There’s no legitimate debate. The Protocols are a fake.

    • Norman

      Problem is it's been used by Arabs/Palestinians in their propaganda and the Arab world at large and even some Arab supporters in the western world believe it.

  • K. Donovan: Nice language, thanks. If you read the item description you will see that I have included both sides of the story. The fact remains, it is a conspiracy theory as many people do believe it to be real despite its having been proven fake. It is no different from the Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith – we know it is fake but all the Mormons believe it is not.

  • Another conspiracy theory:
    USA supports PKK (an organization accepted as terrorist world wide that killed more than 30k people) Most of Turks believe it, including me.

  • Anna

    Fucking Alaskans know their fucking shit!

    Hysterical. I love it!

  • jay

    Crimanon: Kurt Cobain was a generation defining musician and extremely important to the world of music as a whole. Lady Di was not a world leader as you state – she did a lot of charity work, granted, but that’s it. By the time of her death she was no longer part of the Royal family and was not using her title. Mother Teresa died the same week but got next to no coverage. The media loved Diana, why I have no idea, but that is the only reason why these theries came about. Other than taking time out from her schedule of 5 star hotels and Dodi’s yaght to highlight a few charities, she offered absolutely nothing to the world of any import. Cobain was the centre of a movement, Diana was the centre of a scandal. The whole Diana thing is beyond me.

    The real sad story is Charles and Camilla – childhood sweethearts denied their love by the Royal family because it didn’t suit them. And now they are finally together she is public enemy number 1. Figure that one out. Anyway, that really has nothing to do with anything, sorry about that. At least I’ve got it off my chest now…

    • humanfightback

      jay there is no sad story here m8-charles was pumping camilla the whole time ,while she was married,diana sold her soul-literally by marrying into the royal family-sounds cold but she had to pay the piper,she couldve sat back and shagged the odd cousin etc,they all do it,but she believed her own press ,going on bashir fluttering her eyelides and looking mournfully at the ground and up,she had obv studied body language and came out to destroy charles thinking she could somehow become the queen as she was queen of hearts,lizzie the lizard didnt get where she is to be shown up by some poor little rich girl act-as i said she blew the lid of,and to do that a price must be payed-she was killed and the royals arent "normal"they brought di in before the wedding and showed their true forms to her-dis own words-im glad the people are walking up to these scum bags who i was going to say were blackhearted but you need a heart first so,vive le revelutione

  • ben

    this is a cool list, not sure how i missed it in august. Im surprised no one has brought up the “moon landings are fake” idea, but then maybe that dumb hysteria has passed

  • Here we go again…
    Jay: Nirvana was one of three to start the Grunge legacy. Kurt didn’t do it himself and if it wasn’t for Pearl Jam getting recognized First it would never have exsisted. Lady Di, RIP, Worked with more charities than I can remeber. To say She Wasn’t a world leader is naive’. Kurt married Courtney and did heroin til he died. Di married royalty and helped the world. Lets let the Inquest handle the answer to this.

  • jay

    I have close ties to a couple of the charities she worked with and all she did was basically lend her name to them as an endorsement so as to boost donations – which is of course a great thing. But she herself often did no more than the charity and NGO workers themselves. She was just more high profile so received much more publicity as a result. The real heroes were and still are unsung(eg Mother Teresa). Why Diana has the status of a martyr is beyond me; it is not right and undermines the hard work of the real charity workers on the ground.

    A world leader is someone who makes daily decisions that decides the fate of many – Diana endorsed a few charities who in turn tried to help people… She was definitely not a world leader. I’m afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one..

    As for Cobain, RIP, I never said he started Grunge, I said he was at the centre of it. Pearl Jam obviously are great, but Cobain without doubt “touched” a lot more listeners than Pearl Jam did. The reason he was so popular was because he had so much passion – he may not have got the ball rolling, but no one can deny he is the icon of that genre.

    • humanfightback

      im throwing in another name killed by nwo after they got him done on a bogus charge tupac shakur-he was and is a shining star who wouldnt play the game and was supposedly paid the price-but there are theories about him also-he done more to help the poor than di did-he gave them hope she fluttered her eye lids,she had to do something while being paid millions of pounds-she was a scam artist with the morals of an alleycat-she became what she married into—-we got to start to see these changes,keep your head up

  • Punjar

    I saw a show, I think it was on either the Discovery Channel or History Channel, that looked at all the different theories the moon landing people have come up with for why it was a hoax, and pretty much blew them all out of the water. This included taking pictures in the desert with the same camera and lighting and seeing that the stars didn’t appear in the photograph, proving that it was possible to operate the camera with a space suit on, and slowing down a tape of someone walking in a spacesuit on earth and showing that, no, it didn’t look just like the moonwalk video. It basically went on like this for an hour. The whole flag blowing in the wind thing, which seems to be a popular point among theorists, was disproven, because you only see the flag move as it’s being put up, meaning it was just moving because of vibrations. My favorite part was someone arguing that humans couldn’t pass through the Van Allen belt, even though Dr. Van Allen said that they could.

  • Punjar: thanks for that info – very informative.

  • jay

    Why does nobody bite anymore?

  • jay: hehe if you included jews in the comment I am sure sakul would :)

  • soonerproud

    “Jay: Nirvana was one of three to start the Grunge legacy. Kurt didn’t do it himself and if it wasn’t for Pearl Jam getting recognized First it would never have exsisted.”

    Actually, Alice In Chains was the first of that group to hit it big in 1990. The album was Facelift and the band toured with Van-Halen that year.

    Perl Jam hit it big in 1991 with the release of Ten on August 27, 1991. It was slow to sell until the second half of 1992.

    Soundgarden was the first band to sign on to a major label and had moderate success before any of these band released their first album. The Album was “Louder Than Love” and they toured with GnR in 1989. They also received a Grammy nomination for best Metal performance in 1990. The band only hit it big with their release of Badmotorfinger in 1991.

    Nirvana released Nevermind on September 24, 1991 around the same time that Perl Jam released Ten. By January 1992 it was number one on the Billboard charts.

    This means you are wrong and that Perl Jam is not responsible for Nirvana’s success. That credit goes to first Heart, for giving AIC exposure (The members of AIC were good friends with Ann and Nancy Wilson before they were famous.) and then Soundgarden and AIC and their early success. Pearl Jam rode on the coat tails of all four of these other bands.

  • jay

    Soonerproud: Thanks for pointing that out, good info. However I never said that,it was Crimanon who said it – see above. Good try though.

    All I said was Cobain was the nost recognised and affiliated with that movement.

    Should take it up with Crimanon; my point was that Diana was a normal rich person who did a bit of charity, not some kind if saint…

  • Arn’t we off of the subject??? Diana, world leader or NO, had more influence than Cobain. It all comes down to Hero of Potheads vs. Hero of the Downtrodden. Who ever has the balls to route for the underdog has my vote. Now Can We Please Stop Talking About Kurt Ka-blam??? If you really want this debate to continue take it up with James.

  • jay

    I guess people do bite after all.

  • freethinker

    Regarding Jewish world domination: Whether the Protocols are authentic or not, the plausibility of such a conspiracy is observable by simply correlating a few known and established FACTS about the Jews and their culture:

    1. Jews form closed communities exclusive of outsiders. They routinely discourage marriages outside of their race.

    2. Jews regard themselves as superior to other human cultures. One of their better-known words for non-Jews – "goyim" – means cattle or livestock.

    3. Jews will pool their resources to buy out mutliple businesses in a region, allowing them to gain control of the economy in that region. This is why Hitler turned against them.

    4. Jews are highly education-oriented and as such often demonstrate above-average intelligence. This intelligence allows them to evaluate their cultural environment, a vital survival trait in evading the numerous pogroms they have been subjected to.

    5. Jews' intelligence and understanding of human nature has made them masters of propaganda and social manipulation. This is why the Holocaust stands out in history despite the fact that there have been many far worse racial massacres. This is why they have their own special term of discrimination; "anti-Semitism" instead of the more general "racism" applied to discrimination against any other culture. This is why anybody who dares say the sort of things I've posted here is reviled and can even be jailed. Even though all I've done is point out demonstrable facts without advocating any course of action.

    These are all facts that can be demonstrated and proven wherever a Jewish community exists. That these facts clearly indicate predisposition to dominate other cultures is evident on its face. Think about it.

    • Ryan

      goyim means member of a nation; hell the jews even call themselvs goy at one point. Also, they prize education even before they met other groups. Also, they were forcibly banned from all other jobs leaving banking the only option. anti-semitism means hatred of arabs and other semites as well. Also, there are other genocides (armenia for instance) publicly acknowledged. Your theories are garbage plain and simple.

    • matthew

      you are too stupidto insult. jews do not pool there money together to buy out different areas.the problem is there have been so many mixed couples.I could not agree with ryan anymore than right now

      • doubtingreason

        Speaking as a Jew, where is my share of the loot? I guess I did not get that email.

    • p1t1o

      1. applicable to most religeons and also many other non-religeous organisations.

      2. see #1.

      3. a baseless assumption.

      4. see #3, there is no reason to assume that the Jewish are more or less education oriented than any other religeous or non-religeous grouping.

      5. The holocaust stands out in history because most of the world was involved in the war surrounding it, no propaganda was necessary. There may have been “worse” genocidal events somewhere in history, but because of the war the holocaust affected a huge proportion of the world directly.

      Loved the way you capitalised “FACTS” in your first sentence, I was expecting it but its always a little thrill to have your expectations realised. Using the word “fact” does not lend weight to your points.

      Sorry, I’m not trying to antagonise you, but in all seriousness your points come across as biased and fabricated, I have heard very little to support any of these points.

      I hope that this helps you to form your arguments in future.

  • freethinker: I agree that your points are probably true in general, but I do have some issues:

    1. This is not a situation unique to Jews – traditionally Catholics recommend marriage with other Catholics – in fact, traditionally if a Catholic marries a non-Catholic (who absolutely must be baptised even if he isn’t a Catholic by practice) they must be married in a smaller side-chapel as it is not seen as ideal. Normally the non-Catholic parent is obliged to sign a document stating that they will raise their children as Catholics.

    2. The Muslims are the same as this

    3. Again, this is not particularly unique to Jews.

    4. I think intelligence comes not from learning but your mind in general. You can read a lot of books and still be a moron.

    5. Anti-semitism is not a reference for racism against Jews, it is a term that refers to racism against anyone of the peoples that speak a semitic language – Hebrew is one, but so is Arabic and Maltese.

    So while what you are saying is correct in many ways, it is not unique to the Jews, it is a common trait of closed communities.

    Oh – and I promise not to arrest you for posting on listverse :)

  • Ron

    10 conspiracies??? I only see two!
    The other eight are "real"! :-)

    • Ghidok

      no but if there come to gether

  • Drogo

    I’ll bet you that on Nov.22,1963 Oswald was aiming at the guy on the grassy knoll.

    • I agree

      ^^ *mindblown*

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  • well at risk of sounding like a nut, the kind of people I used to laugh at… well ok, I still do… sometimes when looking at one of these theories, you cant help but think about who gained what out of what went down.

    No lies that there is oil in the middle east. no lies that the states like their oil… you think that osama bin laden would not have expected a serious lashback and occupation by the states? I mean if you really hate the “freedom” other countries have… why not attack Canada? shit, lets fly some planes into Jamaica’s weed fields. If those guys aren’t free, then I dont know who would be.

    anywho dumb stories aside, 9/11 has been the impetus behind the occupation of afghanistan, invasion of iraq who was obviously in league with al qaeda, and god knows what other oil bearing non conforming country.

    that, and the terrorism insurance on the world trade centers, that was good thinking. Who gained from these attacks?

    anyway, im sure you’ve heard the above bs from every conspiracy nut you’ve talked to, and I really cant blame anyone for wanting to think that the gov’t is acting in the interest of the people. I cant.

    anyway, if you’ve made up your mind, fine, I understand completely.

    if however, you are unsure, please do check out the movie on . be sceptical about it… check the sources, do your own search for fact and all that good stuff.


  • shawn

    this is a great list jfrater. u real have ur eyes open . u would make a great reporter

  • JoshO

    Has anyone thought about Tupac and Biggie. There are theories that our government were behind their so called killings. If you think about it, the time of their deaths were in a time where riots were breaking out everywhere and constantly. during the time of tupac’s death, he was staging a huge riot, one of astronomical numbers, or so I have been told by others, and our government was fed up and didnt want to deal with an incident like that so they just took him out.

    Think about this, what are the odds of someone or somebodies getting away with a shooting like that, especially in las vegas where there are many people on every corner at all hour of the night. And there were no witnesses. Now who are the only people who can get away with whatever they want and hide anything they want from the public’s eyes, our government.

    Also take this into account. Government officials could have been pissed at him because of the fact that he got away with killing two cops. The cops tried to assault tupac with weopons they stole from the evidence room and they were intoxicated at the time and were the ones doing the provoking. Tupac shot both of them in self defence.

    Just thought I would throw that out there. I would like to hear other’s opinions.

  • Amai

    It’s a bit canadian but my fav is that the flu shot is behind the massive and inexplanable fan fanatism for the toronto maple leafs

    • Aubrey C.

      A steel-reenforced building has never collapsed due to fire or jet fuel before 9/11. Not only have none never collapsed before in history, but 3 collapsed on 9.11. THREE IN THE SAME DAY. Do you realize how high the odds are for tha happening? Not only that, but all 3 collapsed at free-fall speed. If you read the seizmic data for WTC 1 and 2, you will see that they collapsed around 10 seconds. This is also writen in that great fiction book, the 9/11 Commission Report. If you calculate the rate at which the buildings dropped, you will come up with 9.2 seconds in a vacuum. The WTC 1 and 2 collapsed at 10 SECONDS, which is free-fall speed NOT in a vacuum. Do you realize that is defying the laws of physics? The official story isn’t even physically possible. The lightest section of ANY building (the top) can never crush through tons and tons of steel in the strongest part of the building (the bottom) ESPECIALLY at the rate of gravity! If ANYTHING, the tops of the buildings would have maybe fell down a story or two and then rolled off to one side. NOT fall neatly on top of themselves, not even leaving the central core. Then there’s building 7. It wasn’t even hit by a plane, yet it also fell at free fall speed (about 7.5 seconds) due to a fire in the basement? Is this a joke? There have been steel buildings that have been TORCHED burning for 19 HOURS that never collapsed, yet building 7 burned for maybe 6 hours with no real visible fire, and even more rediculous, WTC 1 and 2 burned for an hour and a half PUT TOGETHER.

      This is only some of the obvious evidence that 9/11 was indeed an inside job. Sometimes I wonder why the government made it so obvious that it was an inside job, but i now realize that they really didn’t have to cover SHIT up because the American people are such lazy ass drones that they will believe anything and everything their dear old overnment tells them to believe. I’m pretty sure most americans don’t even know what the words ‘INDEPENDENT RESEARCH’ and ‘THINKING FOR ONES SELF’ mean anymore.

      Anyways, sorry for disturbing you and your CNN and PBS documentary news watching, have a nice day.

  • Jay

    After reading all these theories to be honest i dont not believe them. I say don’t under estimate what a human will do to get what they want. Also why isn’t the biggest conspiracy of them all isn’t there the illuminati so hard to want to believe but is more likely than any other.

  • Sheridan O’Connor

    Good job Freethinker! You have been doing your homework. Except that it isn’t the Jewish people who plot to take over the world. It’s the Zionists and there is a mighty difference.
    Amsel Rothschild is reported to have said, “Give me control of the economics of a country; and I care not who makes her laws.” Today his descendents meet twice daily in London to dictate to the world what the world price of gold will be. They also dictate what the “Federal Reserve System” (nope, not owned by the American people) will do with America’s finances.
    Most Jewish people are kind and decent, but like every other “race”, they have their own rotten apples. And they are very rotten indeed.
    It never pays to bury your head in the sand. You need always to seek truth. It is the only way to keep your freedom.
    Keep the faith Freethinker. You are not alone

  • luckyaz

    what about the treaty made between the united states government and aliens from space in 1947? that gave the greys permission to abduct humans for medical purposes, and experiment with cattle, in return the united states government recieves advanced technology in so many years, cell phones, digital cam corders, smaller nuclear weapons, etc like that.

  • hey this b.s will help me finish my speech thx

  • Monkey Nuts

    Lol the Philadelphia experiment is too outlandish to be true? Hahahahaha yeah, and Kennedy was just shot by one crazy dude, the CIA had nothing to do with it. And when Dick Cheney personally told NORAD to stand down on 911 it was to protect us. And when the local air force base told local media they had found a flying saucer with alien bodies, it was just a funny joke, it was actually a weather ballon full of mannequins and monkeys, and all of the witnesses just made the exact same mistake of perception. And an entire fleet of japanese planes attacked our largest closest air base without us knowing, HA! I’m glad that you’ve got it all figured out, I mean it’s not like our government would lie to us or anything! Hahahahahaha everything is exactly as it seems.

  • Polly Odyssey

    You ought to have included Kurt Cobain.

  • Polly: You should read the comments. You’ll find the Debate. And maybe you’ll come around. I’m not about to start that again.

  • beanshide

    I thought the third secret of Fátima was already known. And I’m portuguese, I guess I should know more about it with all the fuzz about Fátima that goes around here every year.

  • Csimmons

    People who make these theories have no life.

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  • twenty

    Nice list. Although I am heartly sick of people insisting that Diana was killed by the royal family. It was a car crash, plain and simple. I also agree with Andre that I doubt an American president would allow the Murder of thousands of Americans to back up their own political agenda! Also I once watched an interview with a formor Soviet spy who scoffed at the very idea that the moon landings were faked. He stated that the Soviets were watching every second of Nasa’s attempt to reach the moon, on the ground, in the air and on the moon. If there was even the slightest bit of evidence that it was fake, they would have found it and showed the world. The soviets were expert intelligence gathers and had the best spy masters in the world. And lets face it, with the steadfastness of journilists these days, its difficult for anyone to get away with anything.

  • JwJwBean

    The latest JFK theory comes out today. It claims there is a writeen recording of Mrs. Kennedy plotting with Oswald to kill her husband.

  • SlickWilly

    JwJwBean: I think you might be talking about the recently released document that was supposed a written transcript of a meeting between Oswald and Jack Ruby discussing the assassination about a month or so before the actual event. The FBI has already discredited the papers as authentic, citing papers that were retrieved along with it that states that the man to whom the papers belonged was in the middle of writing a movie about the assassination, and that the “transcript” is actually pages of the incomplete script.

  • SlickWilly

    beanside: I believe the 3rd secret of Fatima was indeed revealed, and it pertained to the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II in the late 70’s, early 80’s (I *think* this was when the attempt took place, but I could be off by a few years).

  • JwJwBean

    Thank you for clearing that up. I must have misheard the name and thought they said Jackie. I was listening fro mthe other room. See how easy it is for these rumors to get started.

  • JwJwBean

    Okay this one I have a news link so I hope I have it right. It is about Diana and the conspiracy to kill her.

  • Ken Murphy

    The theories are true!!! Now if you’ll excuse me, Elvis & I have a flying saucer to catch.

  • ajh

    one of the other guys mentioned he didn't think a president wouldn't kill people just to fulfill his ideals. what this guy doesn't realise is that george bush is a fucking dick head, ass hole and a monster in every way. he should be the one who is dead. so yes he wouldn't care about any one else and would have killed thousands of people and would kill and will kill thousands more, just to get what he wants.

    • archworf


    • reasoningdoubt

      When it comes to oil and profits, GDubya & Bang-Bang Chaney would kill their parents to prevent any drop in profits.

  • miriah

    Well arent you a bag of sunshine? He may not be smart or a good public speaker…but he sure in the hell would not let something like that happen. Just remember that when your Hiliary or Barak wins your freedoms will end.

  • lzu

    i know i am late on this but reading through the comments from everybody about global warming and people getting so upset, global warming is a cycle that the earth goes through, and has always gone through, not everyone says it is caused by us, but people who care enough to learn about it want people to play a part in preventing it

  • mike

    I found the list quite interesting if some of them a bit obvious.
    I was suprised by the comments though.
    The list is there as far as I can see to inform people who are interested in the subject, so the person reading can come up with thier own opinions.
    No-one can judge because i doubt many people actually know.

  • Spanner in the Works

    Maybe too late to matter, but here goes:
    People not always using their brains above (or do they have some other organ in their heads?)
    DIANA: No one could possibly have planned that chance crash into a support column in a tunnel at 70 mph in the middle of Paris. Besides, supposing she had survived as a living vegetable, a strong possibility. Great for the Royal family, eh? Fuggin’ Al Fayed should be kicked out of GB.
    GLOBAL WARMING. There IS evidence to judge this. And yes, it’s real and industrial revolution-driven, believe me. Set graphs of the two together and you’ll see they make a perfect match. I’m a biologist and also know South America well, where glaciers are disappearing like licked ice lollies. Natural climate changes on this scale don’t occur over a couple of hundred years and accelerating exponentially with it. They take thousands or even tens of thousands, unless volcanoes or meteor strikes, etc. are causal agents. We know this from Antarctic ice-core sampling. Carbon dioxide is indeed out-breath and isn’t the cause per se, it’s just a case of far too much bad breath. Methane from the other orifice is actually even worse! So if you don’t want climate change to keep happening with really nasty consequences for one and all, inform yourself and get involved. Or make a personal contribution by holding your breath and not farting.
    KENNEDY. Experts have suggested that the best sharpshooters in the world would have difficulty scoring two rapid direct lethal hits on a guy in a moving car at that range. Most assassination attempts fail miserably from a few feet away, which is hardly surprising when you think how wound up anyone about to top a world leader must be. This is one conspiracy theory that does feel potentially true to me.
    JEWS. For FUCK’S SAKE leave these poor people alone, or go try out a gas chamber for yourself as an extreme adventure holiday, sickos. And no, I’m an Aryan, if it matters.
    The rest of the theories have been well talked by others above, are silly, or I don’t know enough to comment on them. Good work though. Next ten please.

  • Struth

    Andre du Plessis… Yes you are ignorant !!!

  • Spanner in the works

    Without wishing to support the view that administrations are sweet and innocent, it seems to me the evidence in favour of an attack such as 9.11 or Pearl Harbour being ‘allowed’ to happen as a casus belli is pretty weak, certainly in those two cases.
    For 9.11, only valiant action by passengers stopped one of the ‘flying bombs’ zapping the White House. No one could have planned or anticipated that self-sacrificing gesture. Also damage to the Pentagon could easily have been far more catastrophic.
    As for Pearl Harbour. Why take it on the chin unprepared? The mere attack was sufficient provocation to hype up the American public to support war against the axis powers. If it was known beforehand, why not move the other major capital ships out to sea along with the carriers? And also do a lot more damage to the the attacking aircraft? Those actions would have blunted the attack and immeasurably strengthened the ability to respond effectively both defensively and offensively in the critical short term.

    • archworf

      If a "flying bomb" had hit the White House on 9/11, it would be the only building it had a chance to completely destroy. Several planes could have hit either tower with absolutely ZERO CHANCE of disintegrating it into its own footprint. It's simply physics, and every Muslim in the world working and praying together cannot change physics. Look at the tape of the tower's top section starting to fall off to one side (as it should), then has a path of least resistance straight down as the the completely undamaged lower 2/3 turns to dust and goes STRAIGHT down at FREE FALL SPEED. I suppose physics is only a theory (like evolution?). Oh and the Pentagon would have sustained more damage if it were hit by a large passenger jet. Each of the huge, multi-ton, titanium engines would have left its own hole as large as the small cruise missile did. The government has never offered a shred of physical evidence, not even a single frame of video showing a plane. I could go on all day, but to sum it up, 9/11 was an inside job.

  • Jan

    As for the Philadelphia experiment.

    It was to mask a ship from radar detection, not from being seen. The way you have it written gives the impression that you mean render the ship invisible to visual observation.

    Here’s a little something to add to your comments about Bush and Roosevelt knowing about their perspective attacks before they happened:

  • Randall


    The Philadelphia Experiment wasn’t real, sport. The entire thing was made up by a troubled attention-hog and trickster named Carl Allen, who duped a naive and all-too credulous UFO investigator into buying the whole thing lock, stock, and barrel. There was never a secret project code-named “Philadelphia*…. not even one for trying to mask ships from radar detection, rather than making them invisible. The closest REAL operations done to this were magnetic degaussing, which was done in an attempt to foil magnetic mines.

  • SlickWilly

    Randall: You’re quite wrong on this one. The Philadelphia was, in fact, a real experiment, with well-referenced evidence that is, to this day, disseminated and widely available from numerous documented sources, country-wide. It is a well-established fact that in the 1930’s (anecdotal evidence supports that as early as 1933), Philadelphia residents Harry and Pat Olivieri experimented with various ways of loading thinly sliced strips of steak and cheese into hoagie rolls in order to create the perfect, authentically American dish. Over the years, vegetables of several varieties were added and numerous methods of bun preparation were also experimented with. As it turns out, the experiment was a huge success and even now, you can find what has since come to be known as the “Philly Cheesesteak” in many different venues across the nation. Yes, the Philadelphia experiment was real: an experiment in deliciousness.

  • Jan


    I think a saw something on the History Channel telling about what you just said. I’m not saying it was real, I was just clarifying an item on that particular topic.

  • Randall


    mmmmmmmm…. Philly cheesesteak…. yummmmmmmyyyyyyy (drools, falls into stupor).

  • Spanner in the works

    O.K. The Philadelphia Food Project Conspiracy is something else again, and highly successful too. I’ve often been a victim of it and so, I’m sure, have most others. What happens is you buy a burger, a sandwich, a pasty, a cake or something else with the ends folded over or closed so you can’t see the filling. And when you bite into it you can’t taste the filling either, because if it hasn’t been made to vanish entirely, it has been shrunk so effectively as to be impossible to detect even by radar. The origins of this conspiracy are lost in history, and it has probably been made to serve many purposes. My theory for its use nowadays is so governments can claim credit for having maintained world food reserves at their present level. Any other ideas?

  • Spanner in the works

    Here are a couple of off-the-wall thoughts on conspiracies. Has anyone thought that those accused of creating them might sometimes actually benefit from people believing them possible? Take 9.11 and Pearl Harbour again. At their face value those events showed that the security and national defence systems failed totally and frighteningly. That’s pretty demoralising stuff for a nation, and fair encouragement for aggressors. But if there’s even a hint that the attacks might have been allowed to happen, it suggests the authorities were at least in control, which perhaps at the end of the day is more reassuring and might even give an enemy second thoughts. Another prime example of this kind of situation was Chamberlain’s ‘Peace in our time’ flight to meet Hitler. Was Chamberlain really such a naïve prat as to believe nice Uncle Adolf? Or did he realise war was inevitable and sacrificed his reputation to buy another year, just enough time to build the Spitfires and Hurricanes that eventually saved Britain by a whisker? Chamberlain had to convince the nazis he was an absolute dipstick or the bluff wouldn’t have worked. Or was it a bluff? Historians still argue the point and Chamberlain took the answer to his grave.
    Then how about testing conspiracy theories against Occam’s Razor or lex parsimoniae, as it’s otherwise called? (Look up Occam’s Razor or Ockham’s Razor in Wikipedia or something.) This is widely used in modern scientific and other practice when there are conflicting possible answers to a theory or hypothesis. It says – more or less – that in the absence of solid evidence to tip the balance, 99 times out of a hundred the simplest answer proves to be the correct one. Therefore, if you don’t know, you work out and accept the simplest answer until (if ever) it is definitely proved wrong. So, for example, what is more simple, that Diana and Dodi crashed into a pillar because their driver was slightly pissed and they told him to go like the clappers to get away from the papperazzi? Or that somehow or other one or more assassins planned beforehand to spike his drink, knew that the car could be forced to travel too fast for him to control, and that he would not only lose it precisely at the right spot to crash fatally into the pillar, but that the people they wanted dead would definitely die and not inconveniently survive the crash? Ask Occam’s Razor. Try other conspiracy theories on it too. It gives a pretty idea of how likely they are. Some actually come out as fairly plausible.

  • So by that logic; Aliens exist, Evolution Is God, NORAD really does track Santa every year, and Bush got elected because he’s the best man for the job?

  • Two of those were sarcastic, I’ll let you figure it out.

  • Spanner in the works

    And Crimanon is just a series of black pixels on my white PC screen, nothing else. One of those was sarcastic, you figure which. I’ll let you figure out why the Crimanon Occam logic was up the creek too.
    Sure, more Americans than not thought George Bush was the best man for the job. After already having seen him in action for one term! What does that prove? That George Bush is an alien? Or the majority of Americans are aliens? Or that we are all aliens and aliens are stupid inventions of God?
    Voltaire tried to figure out this sort of thing. The first answer he came up with was that all’s for the best in the best of possible worlds. The second, later on, was that the whole lot’s a complete cock-up and there’s nothing we can do, so we might as well forget about it and mess around in our own garden instead. One of those was probably sarcastic …
    By the way, all major religions now accept the concept of evolution, so yes, evolution is God. No contest.

  • Spanner in the works

    Like all science, Occam’s Razor only works on logic. Also it only operates where there are two or more conflicting answers to the same hypothesis, when it will supply the most likely answer, given enough evidence to tip the balance.
    The answer may also perhaps differ over time according to new and incoming evidence.
    Science never claims ANY answer to be definitive and final. The best answer only stands until it can be knocked down by a more convincing one.
    Science doesn’t claim anything is impossible either. It will, however, give you odds for or against, based on our knowledge of the universe at the time (read Dawkins). It won’t deny the possibility that half of humanity is metamorphosed green alien slime-lizards. It will just tell you that at our present state of knowledge they (or we!) are not.
    Also like science, Occam’s Razor is not functional in areas of faith and belief. It will give an idea of the liklihood of any given concept of ‘God’ according to observable and measurable phenomena. That’s all. But apart from the fact that we’re a bit short of evidence in that department, faith and belief are different animals altogether. So essentially you’re on your own.
    If you want to believe in green alien slime-lizards, that’s you problem. Green Alien Slime-lizard Smoking Man has criogenic capsules to keep people like you safely out of the way.
    Here endeth the X-Files conspiracy lesson.

  • Randall


    In regards to Chamberlain you’ve unfortunately missed the boat. Somewhat.

    Chamberlain was neither ultra-naive nor ultra-devious. Rather, he was a somewhat tired man whose advisors were of the old-school-tie variety, which in the 1930s meant they were much more likely to be rabidly anti-communist than anti-fascist. This doesn’t mean Chamberlain or any of his people had any actual sympathy for Hitler and his ilk; of course not. But there would have been (and was) a certain amount of tolerance for him (up to a point) as long as it was felt that he could be controlled.

    However, at some point even the British ruling class realized that Hitler could not be “controlled” even marginally, and that clearly Britain was going to have to go to war again. The state of preparedness being what it was, it became necessary to buy time while the might of Britain could be built up. Chamberlain therefore embarked (finally) on a delaying action. ALSO, however, Britain was dealing with a reluctant partner in France. The British knew they needed France to be as resolute as they were in opposing Hitler; unfortunately this was not the case, since France had lost nearly an entire generation of men fighting the first World War, and was not anxious to get involved in another. Gradually, of course, the French came around–but again, for a time, this required a delaying action on the part of the British.

    So in a sense you have it sort of correct–Chamberlain was buying a time–he was not so naive to believe he had “peace in our time” in his hands. But neither did the Germans fall for it. They knew the mood of their adversaries and their capabilities, and feared a united and resolute France and Great Britain. The fact is that despite all the vaunted tales about German might at the start of WWII, they were still outgunned and outmanned by a combined French/British coalition, and they knew it. Hitler may not have cared, but he also grasped the realities a bit, and he *wanted* his war to start, therefore, while his enemies were less strong than they might become, if he gave them too much time to arm up.

    All of this is confirmed by foreign office reports of the time, which did not become declassified until after the war, of course.

    Munich, then, was a bluff all around. The Brits knew it, the French knew it, and the Nazis knew it.

  • Jan


    Your post# 95 is excellent information. Well said.

    I like reading your posts, you’re very well informed.

  • Spanner in the works

    Agreed with 96, Randall. A nice historical review.

    To which I add:
    Of course my tuppenny-worth was inevitably a gross simplification for the present purposes. Personally I have never believed that Chamberlain was a naïve anyway, but many have expressed that view and some still do. I continue to think it looks potentially useful for him to have kept the nazis guessing by appearing to have believed Hitler at that moment though.

    Sure, the nazis were unprepared, but, naval power aside, not so much as the rest. The idea that Hitler was not planning for a world war is well supported by the type of armaments possessed by Germany at that time (no long-range strategic bomber force, for example). Their basic battle modus operandi was blitzkrieg (lightning war), essentially tactical rather than strategic, and with relatively limited short-term aims. Hitler always tended to ‘play it by ear’ and make it up as he went along. Lack of an immediate long-sighted aim is also borne out by what happened early on, when the Panzer spearhead ran out of steam chasing the Brits back to Dunkirk. (It is said they – the Germans – had as many horses as tanks!) Also the stukas (blitzkrieg aircraft) were unable to finish off the troops on the beach because their bombs exloded deep in the sand. Stukas and most other German tactical offensive aircraft would soon prove a turkey-shoot for modern allied fighters. However the German fighter arm was far superior to any other initially, because it was numerically powerful and at least equal technically, and because of combat experience gained during the Spanish Civil War. It failed over Britain partly through insufficient fuel capacity to remain in the combat zone for more than a few minutes, and partly because of Göring’s interference. (Gee, thanks, Hermann!)

    Another example of German strategic unpreparedness was the utterly pathetic preparations for operation Sealion, which would probably have been a failed invasion force under almost any circumstances.

    The fact the nazis knew in 1938 that a war with Britain with Britain was inevitable is debatable (with France, yes). There was much sympathy for nazi aims in (very) high places in Britain (no names here, they are all in various internet history sites), or at the very least many saw no reason to oppose Germany and thereby weaken Britain (likewise until Pearl Harbour a majority of the U.S.population). You can also add to that an extremely powerful and influential pacifict movement, which the visionary Churchill constantly found himself opposing. As you say, hatred and fear of communism was one prime motive in Britain, but sadly, anti-semitism cannot be excluded either. We had our fascists.

    There were also anglophiles in the German, even nazi hierarchy. It is well known that nazis admired the British Empire, and there was a current among at least some of them that they and the British might perhaps carve up and rule the world between them, with the co-operation of the Nordic races, and essentially in combination against Soviet Russia.

    Some think Rudolf Hess was a solo lunatic loose cannon, but in fact his strange flight to Scotland early in the war is now more accepted as a co-ordinated attempt to contact those in Britain known or presumed to be sympathetic to the nazis and to persuade them to forge an alliance against the Soviets. He was, of course, tricked, poor sod!

    The presence of pro-nazis in all of central and northern Europe is well-testified by the number of willing collaborators (quislings, etc.) in the occupied territories.

    There is a strong view that had the British and French resisted by threatened force Hitler’s early unopposed territorial adventures, his aggression would have been snuffed out altogether, as the two powers were certainly stronger overall at that early moment, despite their pathetic obsolescent airforces.

    I suspect such an alternative history might only have led to one of two consequences: postponment of the ‘existing’ war for a year or so; or some kind of war involving Russia (if Stalin didn’t keep on executing his best officers!). In either case Austro-German Jews would still have been gassed, and fast-advancing technology would surely have led to an even more terrifying conflict, perhaps involving nuclear weaponry and intercontinental ballistic missiles both in the European and American theatres (third generation V weapons designed by Werner von Braun – he was working on them – and/or their equivalent by his Russian rivals).

  • Spanner in the works

    apoloogies for the odd typographical error above.

  • Spanner in the works

    And for apoloogies!

  • Spanner in the works

    Hola Randall and Jan,

    Since we three seem to have cornered this site, at least temporarily, as a forum for history from the middle of last century, I’d like to thank Jan for recommending I’ll give you my opinion of it, for what its worth, and ask whether Randall, if interested, agrees or not.

    Other than saying it’s a personal analysis of how Hitler obtained and held power, and how this relates to leadership conspiracy today I’m not going to reiterate its contents. Too long. Anyone interested can visit the site themselves. I’m also going to stick to the Hitler bit and (almost) leave Dubya for others to savage.

    I may have a bit of trouble because I’m working from memory of the web text rather than cross-checking, but my overall reaction is clear: interesting but deeply flawed historically and also, sad to say, selling a lot of truly brave Germans short.

    Hitler was no isolated phenomenon. He came close to being an historical inevitability. Among the more immediate events that propelled him to power were the humiliation of Germany at the end of WW1, a humiliation led by President Wilson, and a lesson well learned by the victorious allies for the end of WW2. Many Germans felt they had been more betrayed than defeated militarily. They not only felt resentment and humiliation, but also the consequent urge to continue
    ‘unfinished business’. Hitler was not only the perfect front-man for this (and he truly was a charismatic, hypnotic orator), but he was clever enough to give them back their national pride, senses of identity and purpose, and full employment after a disastrous postwar economic collapse.

    But the roots of Hitler go way back to the causes of WW1 and further beyond into German 19th C history. Germany was the last of the great European powers to form, and largely missed out on the imperial card deal: a bit of New Guinea here, a few chips in Africa there, but mere peanuts besides the colonies of her main rivals, France and GB. This, coupled with the teutonic Bismark view, gave rise the concept of lebensraum, the need for living space, fresh territory, for a vigorous and growing industrial power.

    Jewish influence in commerce, science, medicine and the arts was always strong, and until later in the 19th C an integral part of German culture. Mendelssohn was worshipped by Leipzig, for example. But things soon started to go sourly anti-semitic. Many of Brahm’s friends were Jewish, but a contemporary fellow genius of a composer was one of the nastiest racists imaginable: little Richard Wagner, who would gladly have personally thrown Jews into gas chambers. Although Jews stil continued in German culture and even fought in WW1, a groundswell of racial hatred against them was gradually building up. Hitler did not create it, he merely expoited what already existed.

    Essentially, WW1 was imperial rivalry and a first move towards lebensraum, whereas WW2 was pure lebensraum, racial superiority (the Übermensch) and subjugation of the Untermensch. There was nothing unusual about eugenics in those days, plenty of intelligent and cultured people everywhere talked openly about the racial superiority of the western world. Most saw it as a paternalistic duty to care for the ‘white man’s burden’. Hitler and his gang uniquely saw it as a chance to create neoslavery and even included Slavs among the Untermenschen (i.e. Tchaikovsky, Pushkin, Tolstoy, etc.!).

    It was not Hitler using and conning the Germans of that time, by the way. The majority of his countrymen welcomed him with open arms and supported him until things started to go pear-shaped late on, and many even after that. He was virtually worshipped by large sections of the populace.

    Nor was Hitler a lone figure standing clear of the rest of Germany. The nazis were a well-ordered hierarchy, from the Führer next down to his immediate gang, whose names we know so well, on down to the SS and other state police organisations, and finally the armed services. Some high-ranking military figures also revelled in his adventures, others, probably including Rommel, merely acted on orders, because that’s what a good soldier has to do.

    Now let’s finally get to the bit about cowardly Germans and technological weapons. All nations use, and always have used, technological weapons, and the best they can get or invent. Not because they are afraid of hand-to-hand combat, but because as rule that’s how you win wars. Major ones anyway. Britain did, the U.S. did and Japan did as well. There were probably few braver and more ferocious fighters at close quarters in WW2 than Germans. Think Stalingrad, even though they lost. They have that tradition in common with Turks as seen in Korea. If not at war with them, you’d be more than pleased to have either of those at your side in a tight corner. So let’s debunk that myth.

    As for German’s not standing up to Hitler morally or physically, haven’t you heard of von Stauffenberg? If not, go see the forthcoming movie (film) with Tom Cruise. What about all the Germans who took terrible risks hiding and saving Jews, for whom Schindler is the iconic name. And the thousands who tried to resist the nazis from the early days on and mostly ended up tortured and executed. Don’t dare insult their heroism.

    No, Jan, Germans weren’t overcivilised and weak morally and physically. They took a terrible wrong direction, and partly through the fault of the rest of us in isolating them after WW1, that’s all.

    And I reckon Americans would have the same potential backbone too if ever the chips were down.

    I’ll just end by saying that whatever Dubya is, he’s not Hitler, or Stalin, or even Castro. He can and will be got rid of democratically. Who is chosen next and what they do is something else again.

  • Jan


    Woodrow Wilson didn’t lead the humiliation of Germany in their surrender in WWI.

    Woodrow Wilson drafted the 14 points of surrender for Germany that would have allowed them to keep their dignity and payback reparations along with agreements for territorial assignments.

    Woodrow Wilson came down with Bird Flu and was not able to attend the meetings for the final terms for surrender. France then ramrodded the terms of surrender and put the screws to Germany. Germany did not start WWI, they were brought into it through agreements with Austria, yet Germany was made to pay the hardest because they were winning the war until the United States got involved. Germany still had enough fight to finish off France, who was ready give up entirely then move on and finish off England, but with the United States getting involved and the reports of fresh American soldiers coming off the transports by the thousands, Germany knew they didn’t have enough to stand up to the Fresh American forces and felt it better to surrender. Because France had been so heavily stomped on by Germany and this also stems from Frances defeat from the Franco-Prussian War that France came up with new terms for surrender that was responsible for putting Germany into a depression from unreasonable terms for reparations. Personally I think it served France right to be flanked and put our of WWII early by Germany. That and the stupidity of the French general that was convinced that WWII was going to be another Trench Warfare campaign that France spent tons of money with state of the art trenches that didn’t do a thing to protect France.

    So no, the blame for Germany being unfairly treated after WWI lays with France and Brittan. Brittan because they were also angry but let France have their way with the terms.

  • Randall


    Yes, I largely agree with everything you wrote; sadly I’m limited by time at the moment and can’t comment much…. except to say, I don’t know what this business is about “cowardly Germans” but yes, it’s of course silly.

    It’s also true that the Germans were not prepared for a protracted war when WWII began. Hitler least of all, but then Hitler was certainly no military genius, despite the glaring successes of Germany in the early years of the war. The German army was not anywhere near fully-mechanized (in fact it was quite the opposite) and the vaunted Luftwaffe was almost completely tied to ground operations–which worked rather well in the fast and brutal engagements of the early war, but became a fatal flaw as the situation ground on. And yes, the lack of a four-engined bomber was a telling and, in the end, fatal omission.

    It’s clear Hitler thought he could keep the Western powers at bay (or could cow them into submission) so that he could focus his energies on conquering Russia; he hadn’t counted as much on a resolute Great Britain, and he and his men had no *real* plan for defeating Britain decisively (certainly not by invasion–as you point out, Sealion was woefully ill-planned–the Germans are not a seafaring people really, and had no concept of the needs of a large amphibious assault) although the u-boat campaign might have done this in time.

  • Spanner in the works

    Thanks for the reply, Randall.

    I know what you mean about time. I lost an hour or so of sleep last night punting out the above ‘thesis’.

    Cowardly populations is the theme of Jan’s website. I.e. that tyrants like Hitler (and Dubya!) get into power because the rest of us are too ‘fin de Roman Empire’ to resist physically and morally.

    I might have added above that Hitler was greatly helped by the connivance of big industrialists and aristocratic families, out of cynical opportunism rather than cowardice. They imagined he could be used to put Germany back in gear and then be tossed to one side. The best laid plans …

    Like the Luftwaffe, U-boats were highly effective at the start of the campaign. By halfway through the war though the allies had organised many lethal counter measures and the Germans suffered appalling losses, such that they were no longer much of a pawn in the game. I can’t recall the final loss percentage, it will be quoted on appropriate websites. The splendid anti-war film ‘Das Boot’ (The Boat) gives a magnificently claustrophobic close-up and moving non-partisan account of the fearful lives led by German submariners. The director actually had a full-scale U-boat built by the original constructors. What price digital imagery!

    I also believe the Germans were bound to lose WW2 ultimately for the same reason that they lost WW1. Ever increasing shortages of vital materials, above all fuel, and food. In both wars the civilian population came close to starvation.

    However, it is equally true that Britain could probably never have held out without U.S. lease-lend aid – that is before America entered the war – even allowing for Canada.

  • Randall

    “Cowardly populations is the theme of Jan’s website. I.e. that tyrants like Hitler (and Dubya!) get into power because the rest of us are too ‘fin de Roman Empire’ to resist physically and morally.”

    Ah. Well THIS I wouldn’t quite argue with (a little, but only so much) but I also wouldn’t call it “cowardice.”

    I do think it required a certain willingness to be servile, on the part of the German people… and I don’t say this is confined to them, of course–any people can fall into that trap. But there was also a tradition of this kind of willingness to follow the leader–the romantic longing for “THE LEADER”… that the Germans had long had… going back to Luther, in a sense… and before.

    So… it *could* happen here…. but Americans would have to warp themselves out of shape quite a bit first. Which isn’t impossible. The more complacent, fat, and apathetic we get…. the less we’re invested in our democracy, which requires constant participation and vigil.

    I don’t QUITE agree that the Germans were *bound* to lose WWII… of course in real terms, they WERE bound to… they couldn’t take on the US AND the USSR. But had they first found a way of disposing of the USSR as an adversary–if they hadn’t bumbled that… well… one never knows.

    But really of course you’re right… the only scenario I can imagine is simply a far bloodier and more protracted war, with the Allies (or what was left of them) victorious anyway. Thank god the war went as quickly as it did then, and thank god it ended as suddenly and forcibly as it did… that’s how I look at it. (I don’t cringe from the atom bomb.. neither do I delight in it. I simply think it saved more lives than it cost… many more. It was expedient in that it ended the war and spared further bloodshed. At a terrible cost. But then that’s why war should be avoided… so we don’t have to do things like that to each other).

  • Spanner in the works

    Hear, hear Randall.

    I just discovered Jan’s 101 (I enter the site from the bottom up!) and have some response for there, but just quickly to say how thoroughly and utterly I agree with you about the A-bombs.

    But more than that. I regard the hapless victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as martyrs for the survival of many or most of the rest of us. I’m quite convinced that people have so little imagination that they need to SEE the effects of something like a nuclear explosion on humanity before deciding not to use it. Imagine the Japanese had caved in to the mere threat of Hiroshima and we had then gone on to an active nuclear ‘hot’ war with the Soviets. All too horribly possible an alternative scenario in my imagination. I’ll add a bit more about technological weaponry later.

    However, the Japanese were never going to cave in easily. It is so easy for modern pacifists from pre- to post-CND, including many American friends of ours, to spit hatred against the U.S. for what Enola Gay and her fellow Superfort did. It usually shuts them up when I point out that the Japanese High Command was perfectly prepared to sacrifice a second city before finally throwing in the towel. Also that since several of them have WW2 servicemen as parents or grandparents, they probably wouldn’t be here today if the war had dragged on to a bitter ‘conventional’ end.

    Apropos, a recent television programme where we live did an on-the-spot in Afghanistan. It pointed out that if you want to talk serious weapons of mass destruction in the world, talk anti-personel mines!

    Nor have our innocents abroad the slightest knowledge of how a whole island full of Japanese women and children jumped off the cliff to commit suicide in the sea, because (a) they had been brainwashed that Americans would eat them, and (b) because it is against the Japanese codes for ANYONE to surrender. That would have been the ongoing story to the bitter end.

    Oh, and yes: firebombing of Japanese cities (which would have continued anyway) did more damage, killed more people, and left more horribly wounded.

  • Spanner in the works

    Another quickie, Randall.

    The Russian winter clobbered the nazi attempt to reach the Ukraine oilfields, just as it clobbered Napoleon. I have an interesting book on El Niño which notes it as a global phenomenon and traces its history way back. It seems that both Hitler and Napoleon encountered exceptional El Niño-driven winters in Russia. So God must be a …

    And of course we get back to the tactical versus strategic argument. The Russians could still have gone on and on retreating in depth and finally perhaps stretched the German lines to breaking point. Not to mention the ever-increasing amount of hostile territory the nazis would have had to control. The Wehrmacht didn’t even have proper winter protective clothing. You couldn’t beat Russia by blitzkrieg! Well, nuclear blitzkrieg aside, maybe.

  • Spanner in the works

    Jan, thanks for the response, and for pointing out the clumsy way I had involved Woodrow Wilson.

    If there is any excuse for not making one’s points clear, I can only claim that I was typing late at night, and also trying to squeeze a huge chunk of history into a few paragraphs.

    What I intended was that Wilson led (better still to have said initiated) the process (rather than the humiliation), insofar as his 14 Points were the basis, and the only basis, for the surrender terms. Of course only four of his originals ended up as part of it. They were in fact known simply as the 14 Points, and if one adds anything to his original intention, ‘for peace’ or ‘for an armistice’ would probably be better than ‘for surrender’. They were also produced well before the end of the war.

    It’s all very well to blame the French and British for taking a tougher line with the Germans, but you have to remember the terrible attrition suffered by both their armies, the massive loss in a whole generation of young men, in no way equivalent to American suffering. Public opinion, as much as anything else, drove their leaders to treat Germany, the perceived aggressor, harshly. Unwise, maybe, but understandable under the circs.

    Wilson was also a fine idealist rather than a pragmatist. Whether his 14 points, if adopted, would have done the trick
    better is a moot point. The European politicians certainly believed not. They saw the stick rather than the carrot as the appropriate means of quelling Germany.

    I think your line on Germany being collared reluctantly into WW1 truly is soft-soap. By that logic Princip murdered the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his charming wife and all the rest got dragged in through mutual treaties. There is some truth in that. But I doubt if a country which ploughed through Belgium and most of France in short order, nearly reaching Paris, and was always the miltary equal of the rest thrown together until the last moment was exactly shy of a good rumble! Remeber, the last words of Wilson’s 14 Points spoke of never again allowing German expansionism, or words to that effect.

    I recently read a book in Spanish called ‘Nazis en el Sur’ (Nazis in the South). It’s fascinating, and by an Argentinian research journalist about German colonisation of temperate South America and the strategic part this was intended to play, and to a much lesser degree did play. Although the core of the book dealt with WW2, it went right back historically. A base for supply and warships was already set up in Patagonia by 1914, and the German force that sank the small British fleet off Chile was refuelled there before it was itself sunk in the Battle of the Falklands. The pre-existing plan was to occupy the Falklands and use them as a base for German maritime South Atlantic operations. Hardly the stance of nation disinterested in or unprepared for warfare, I suggest.

    I think it would be rash to anticipate that Germany would have won had America not entered the war. Maybe a punch-drunk draw. And no, Germany wasn’t winning before America came over. (John Wayne was only a babe in arms too!) In fact it was an ebb-and-flow stalemate. The European allies were still very far from beaten. They had recently been reorganised under a very effective joint command, and the French mutinies were soon a thing of the past. Air power was becoming ever more significant, and although the Germans had their magnificent ‘circus’ system, they were becoming hopelessly outnumbered throughout 1917 and 1918. They were forced into a largely defensive pose against, in particular, the rampantly aggressive policy of the RFC, or RAF as it eventually became. Excellent and experienced American pilots had already been involved as volunteers in the Lafayette squadron, but they were drafted into the U.S. Army Air Corps when it arrived. So they had to give up their finely tuned fighting machines and wait for yonks for a load of clapped out French crap aircraft, since the U.S. had no modern front line stuff in WW1. As a result, American flyers hardly got involved before the war ended.

    Perhaps the most critical factor wouldn’t have changed either. Through geographic isolation, the Germans were running out of raw materials, and their food supplies dropped ever closer to starvation level. Unlike the British, they had no seaborne supply lines.

    I certainly do agree that the arrival of the Americans really deprived Germany of all hope at all of victory.

    Actually, you’ve not got the Maginot line quite right either. It was indeed based on the tactics of WW1, but updated fairly efficiently by tank traps and heavy gun emplacements to prevent any kind of ground advance. The Germans put up similar defences against the later allied seaborne invasion forces. It worked in its own right. The problem was, it should have been extended along the Belgium border to the coast. That might have caused Hitler a real headache. He could have shot the basically obsolescent French airforce out of the sky, but certainly would have been seriously hampered, if not stopped altogether in the all-important fast ground blitzkrieg follow-up. The problem, as you say, Jan, was that the French were once again outflanked. Apparently they anticipated that, but supposed they would have enough enough time to regroup and hit the Germans at the Belgian bottleneck. They didn’t.

    Finally, it’s easy to blame French generals and others for not anticipating advances in warfare. But I recall during the Cold War that people were advised to duck under a table in the event of a nuclear attack! Chimps discovered the possibility of throwing sticks and stones at enemies a few thousand years or more back. Their technology hasn’t changed one whit meanwhile. Humans invent a new piece of warfare gadgetry, or a tactic, and its almost out of date by the time it come into service. We can scarcely keep up with our ingenuity. Instant intellectual and technological evolution have effectively replaced plodding Darwinian evolution for our species!

    By the way, I should point out that I am a botanist, not an historian, and my picture is largely built up of what I know to be true, what I am pretty sure is true, both of those from memory with an occasional jog from a website, and what looks logical through deduction. I have taste-dipped into interesting bits of history, but not studied deeply. (O.K. A little knowledge … as Pope said … I know.) So none of this stuff is properly researched or capable of citation (My citations are limited to botanical papers!) So don’t be surprised if you find gaps and errors in my coverage.

  • Spanner in the works


    You’re very quiet. Are you happy with your site being railroaded like this, and not altogether exactly on the conspiracy rails all the time either?

    I can’t speak for the others in this current trio, but I’ll certainly go away if you’re pissed off.

  • Jan


    I came across that site and felt it was a good one to post here because it is relevant to the conspiracy topic. I don’t agree with everything in the comparisons but some of the things do merit.

    Spanner and Randall,

    I like to dabble in history. I work in engineering for a company that manufacture machinery but history has always been an interest of mine.

    I appreciate the information both of you have posted. Whether you’ve just dabbled or not you both had brought up things that I didn’t know about and have added to the information that I already knew.

    I really enjoy this sharing of information.

  • Spanner In The Works: I have actually just arrived back from a holiday in Ireland (seeing the last parts of Europe before I return to New Zealand) – the discussion above occurred in my absence. I am definitely not annoyed! It is great when people put across valid points and do so without a fight ensuing :) I must confess to not having read all of your comments (due to their length and the thousands of other comments I need to read to catch up after my 3 day holiday) but what I did read seemed fair enough :) And for the record, there are very few conspiracy theories I believe – I find them all very interesting, but I don’t follow them for the most part.

  • Spanner in the works

    Since Leaders of nations appears to a big issue in these conspiracy sites, can I share an off-the-wall, lateral notion that occurred to me in an odd moment recently?

    It struck me that our attitude to leaders has a number of things in common with that of militant feminists towards men. The bile they pour out towards the male sex is based on their view that men are virtually a separately evolved nasty, selfish, aggressive species which somehow comes together with the sex that really matters (women) for the purpose of procreation. If women could only give birth to women via parthenogenesis (virgin birth), they go on, men would be redundant. Of course that latter point would be true, although I’ll skip here what would be seriously lost by sacrificing genetic intercombination by outbreeding. (In which case better that women interbred with women – Ah, so that explains lesbianism!)

    What they either conveniently forget, are ignorant of, or haven’t taken into account is Darwinian natural selection: in this case sexual selection for optimum survival. With a few marginal exceptions such as arranged marriages and rape, women CHOOSE their partners and are perfectly free not to breed if none of the availables are suitable! The fact that you have been driven to put up with any Tom, Dick or Harry by the breeding urge of your genes is no cop out. Therefore the men women have are essentially the result of their own collective choice.

    Now we have several lady friends who became romantically obsessed by the idea of the handsome, dashing, masculine arab. Some of them went so far as to marry one, ignoring our anxious cautions. Every single such union ended in tears, usually with any children disappearing terminally back into the Middle East with dad.

    It’s easy to work out the need for testosterone-loaded protective brute strength in a partner by an early female, vulnerable in her cave with her helpless infants. As the cartoons show, he who clubs her over the loaf and drags her off by the barnet can do the same to a sabre-toothed cat.

    That need lasted as long as hand-to-hand combat and the like on a wide scale took place, or we had to take on tough physical tasks without machinery. Nowadays brute strength is only marginally needed in everyday life and is largely sublimated in sport and keeping our bodies reasonably in trim.

    Meanwhile technology gradually relpaced or overcame main strength. Technology was also a male division of labour, and explains the male tendency to obssessiveness, selfish, blinkered single-mindedness and fascination with gadgetry that feminists also despise. After David and Goliath, which made the better protective partner, a nerdy David with a sling, who had spent hours and hours practicing his shots, or a beefy, dead Goliath with useless muscles from body-building with heavy chunks of rock?

    So here we have the female dilemma. They adore sweet, soft poetic guys, but if they she marries one, he doesn’t have the balls to face out the neighbours in a spat, so she grows to despise him. Or she marries the fella who punches the neighbour into submission literally or figuratively, and then finds his excess of hormones leads him to do the same to her when he gets frustrated. No, I’m not a cynic. Many marriages work and are very happy, my first for a good while, for example, and my second altogether. But there are strong trends all the same.

    By the way, let’s dispose of this feminist myth that men are the aggressors and women the gentle, nurturing peace lovers. Which sex used to hand white feathers (a sign of cowardice) to men not in uniform during WW1? And Maggie Thatcher? The amazons? Queen Boudicca, or however you like to spell her?

    Begin to get the connection with leaders? To begin with WE (s)elect them. Elect a ‘nice guy’ like Jimmy Carter, and you’re soon kicking him up the arse for being too weak. So you want a toughie like a Maggie Thatcher or a Bush. But when they start throwing their weight (or your weight!) around, lots don’t like it. It seems to be a no win situation.

    I except dictators and tyrants who are not elected democratically, whether left, right or centre. They are simply rapists, or if derived from a dynasty, arranged marriages!

    Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is only half-true. I think it is fair to say though that power must change perspectives. I would put a lot of money on the probability that if you sat any active CND disarmer in the Oval Office during the cold war crisis, showed them all those Soviet missiles pointing into the heart of the U.S., including at their own near and dear ones, and said, O.K., you going to switch ours off?, most of them wouldn’t.

    The other problem is that leaders are to a certain extent an unknown package before we elect them and they get unwrapped in power. Do you know one who lived up to their promises at the hustings? As I said before though, there isn’t that excuse when you elect one for a second spell.

    I wonder if the measure of a good leader might be how many of his or her natural opponents give grudging praise? For a long time number of my friends who would naturally be Conservatives admired Tony Blair. Against that, I have to say that a lot of lefties in his own party hated him! O.K. So you can’t please most of the people most of the time.

    It’s easiest to be a good leader if you are strong, with your back against the wall, and fighting a just cause – Churchill. Who was a FIGHTER not a WARMONGER: let’s get that record straight.

    Modern nation states need leaders, but have become far too frighteningly big and complex for one man. But you still need a figurehead. To a certain extent Britain has a good solution in that the figurehead, the sovereign, is utterly neutral publicly, broadly accepted and loved by the populace at large, and quite divorced from the political executive arm. Presidents invariably have some political tinge.

    The problem with Royal Families is exposed by the Diana crisis. Half Britain hates Charles. The other half despises Diana for what happened. What people don’t appear to realise is that both of them were effectively victims of an inhuman system feedom-loving Brits would hate in any other context. You might call it a semi-arranged marriage. Can you imagine the reaction of an average Brit if he heard some foreigner was told he couldn’t marry the woman he loved because she was divorced, the wrong religion, and his job wouldn’t allow it? That he could marry a few girls – but here’s the list, son. Of course an heir apparent can hand over to the next in line, or abdicate if enthroned. However, like Harry Faversham in The Four Feathers, he or she is conditioned and straightjacketed for that role in life. Copping out would widely be regarded as an act of funk, or selfishness, or irresponsibilty, and it would be difficult or impossible to return to ‘private life’, at least in Britain. Who knows what the answer is. Whenever I tell anti-monarchists the sort of ex-political British president they would get, most are horrified!

    So there you have it.

    Perhaps I should ask at this stage for you folks to name leaders you find (or have found) acceptable, since it’s so easy to throw shit at the ones you hate! Bear in mind horses for courses though. A good leader in wartime might not get you through an economic depression, and vice versa.

  • Spanner in the works

    The cynical saying has it that people get the government (which includes leader) they deserve. What about all those who didn’t vote that way and don’t want that leader?

    If you were to ask me what is the most important issue for any leader in the world right now, I would unhesitatingly say global over-heating (as I prefer to call it). How many have that top of their agenda? In practical terms a good number don’t have it on their agenda at all.

    On the other hand, supposing a presidential candidate discovered the only way to begin to save the planet was for all Americans to stop using their private vehicles immediately. Do you suppose he or she would be voted in? Or would the whole idea be dismissed as a conspiracy theory? You tell me.

    jf: 3 days isn’t long to take in the glories of the Emerald Isle. One of its inhabitants can practically blarney you for that long (you wouldn’t guess I had one-eighth Irish blood). Hope it was long enough.

  • Spanner in the works: it was not enough time – but at it was better than no time at all! I had a great time. Speaking of Blarney – I visited there – beautiful castle.

  • Randall


    Too little time (again) to comment in depth just now… but just wanted to say, FYI: my father and several of my uncles were in combat in WWII, most of them (including my father) in the Pacific. (My father was a bomber pilot, and two of my uncles were in the navy… the others in the army). In essence, the atom bomb saved my father’s life (and my uncles’ lives) and I am therefore here today because of it.

    I agree, of course, with all you said about the Bomb. The dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are martyrs to WAR itself–they should be remembered as such—not as victims of America. They were in fact victims of their own culture and politics–a system which, thank god, was wiped out and replaced with democracy.

    I would suggest you check out Paul Fussell’s book, “Thank God for the Atom Bomb and Other Essays”, which is a great read on this subject. The small-minded moralists who go around whining about American terrorism in regards to the A-bomb are always A) too young to have been there, nor did they have parents who fought *in combat* in the war (the combat issue makes a big difference) and/or B) too narrow of vision and understanding to grasp that war is very difficult to judge in “civilian” moral terms. Not that there is no such thing as good and bad in war–but it is never so clear cut as they think.

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  • Spanner in the works

    Thanks, Randall.

    I would just add a small codicil that I forget earlier. Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been among the cities firebombed to destruction by superforts had the war gone on conventionally. Even in those cities the number of dead and terribly maimed and mutilated would probably have at least equalled those of the Bomb. Putting to one side the issue of the nuclear survivors, if I were offered the unavoidable choice between being horribly burnt to death by fire or instantly vaporised by the Bomb. No contest.

    I’m so glad your relatives survived and you are here.

    Concerning the nuclear debate, I can recommend an interesting read of many angles, ‘The Revenge of Gaia’ by James Lovelock, if you don’t know it. It’s essentially about the present planetary crisis, but apropos the point at issue here, Lovelock is strongly in favour of nuclear power as at least a fast stopgap and urgent measure to slow emission contamination without bringing industrialism to a grinding halt. He presents convincing evidence, such as W.H.O. statistics, showing how nuclear dangers (even Chernobyl, etc.) have been grossly and emotionally distorted and exaggerated. I was anti-nuclear power before I read that a short while ago, but he has converted me.

    Apropos, those who believe conspiracy theory 4 above should read Lovelock, and Gore, at least.

    I confess reluctantly to being in my eighth decade, because it makes me grotesquely older than I want to be and than I feel. However, I can still climb 2000-4000 m mountains in pursuit of rare plants, and write up papers for the new species we find, so can’t complain. And at least I have active contemporaries like Michael Caine and Woody Allen too, not to mention my old flame of afar, Julie Christie!

    I mention this merely to illuminate the fact that my interest also stems from having lived through and experienced in a small way some of the history we are considering here.

    An elder brother of my mother, although still a schoolboy, lied about his age and fought right through WW1 from beginning to end, and happily wasn’t even clobbered by that terrible postwar ‘flu epidemic that finished off so many survivors. For capturing a fortified pillbox after taking over command of a small detatchment when the officer collapsed with nerves, he was awarded the third highest medal the British army can offer. The first being the V.C. and the second for officers only. The aforementioned officer was awarded that one, so believe in cover-ups!

    My father held a post in urgent industry and so was not called up for WW2. All other relatives, uncles and aunts, who served happily survived unscathed.

    One of the first cruise missiles ever cast a dark shadow over our house one bright summer day and brushed through the treetop next door on its silent terminal glide. It exploded about 300 m away and blew all the glass out of our windows, not to mention tiles off the roof, etc. My mother and I just had time to dive under the table! That was a close shave, but Werner von Braun’s ballistic missiles were the only things that really scared shit out of me as a very young kid basically enjoying the excitement (see the film ‘Hope and Glory’, though he was several years older, and I was a wee bit further from the centre of London)… A huge explosion out of nowhere, a thin black rainbow of smoke across the sky as you rushed outside to see, and a nearby road with a thick column of smoke and several houses totally missing like teeth knocked out of a mouth. Yes, shit!

    But we used to watch air battles and pick up the shrapnel and occasional cannon or machine gun bullet cases that had rained down in the street during raids. And have the nearby Spitfires do victory rolls at rooftop level. And we roamed absolutely free from dawn to dusk, No traffic, no perverts (were they all called up?).

    But never, ever again, please.

  • Spanner in the works: I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your last comment. It really was very descriptive and while I don’t agree with the gore comment, I am very thrilled to have your input on the site – and I am sure everyone else is too!

  • Spanner in the works

    Thanks jf,

    Yeah, just to add I forgot to number Jack f***ing Nicholson among my contemporaries!

  • Randall


    100% agreement with the sentiment:

    No, never, ever, ever again. Please.

    No more world wars, and no more cold wars. (frightened the shit out of me as a kid, as it did most of my peers). I’d ask for no wars, period… but must try to keep realistic about these things.

  • Spanner in the works


    I well understand you childhood nuclear terror.

    When we got towards the end of our secondary schooling, there was this terrible (happily unfounded) rumour that Bomb testing might set off an atomic chain-reaction in the earth’s natural air and water hydrogen systems and vaporise the whole planet in one vast BOOOOOOOOOOOMMMM!

    Reaching National Service age (me in Cyprus, including at the time of the Suez crisis and the Hungarian suppression), most of us were resigned to the strong possibility of being called up for action in a major war before we reached the upper military age-limit (40 or 45, as I remember), and with the prospect from then on of being blown to smithereens as middle-aged or elderly civilians, if we got that far. Nevertheless, we didn’t live like gibbering idiots. We got on with everyday life positively and had plenty of fun too. All of us know we’re bound to die, but we don’t live every day in dread with that at the top of our minds, unless perhaps we know without doubt we have something terminal. It was a bit like that though. Living with a vague dark shadow, often subconscious, equivalent to the fear one MIGHT have something terminal.

    People have tried to make nuclear weapons appear totally distinct from all others (rather like making humans a separate entity from the rest of organic DNA-based life!). Well, they are, but no less so than the gun is from the bow and arrow, or a machine-gun from a musket, or fire-based weapons are from non fire-based, or the airborne bomb is from a ground-fired shell, etc., etc. Like each of those the Bomb brought different and more terrible dimensions.

    Its dimensions are: appalling efficiency, an unparalleled massive destructiveness, a capacity to reach people everywhere (no hiding place, but probably best to live somewhere like New Guinea), and of course the terrifying novelty of radiation damage. But in a sense humanity has always suffered cancers from natural background and solar radiation, so the last isn’t that brand new. Also the effects of gas-, biological- and chemical-warfare are arguably more ghastly still. Which is where the efficiency comes in. Zeppelins originally appeared to be the last word in modern aerial nastiness, but in effect rapidly became an inefficient dead-end technology. So the unholy trinity of g., b. & ch. are (at present) better terrorist toys than weapons of major warfare and mass destruction, and are clumsy and difficult even for terrorists to manipulate on a limited scale, pace ‘24’. But the only complaint its users might have against the Bomb is that it’s so perfect it can only lead to the paradox of MAD.

    In an earlier blog above I metioned Lovelock and climate change. Lovelock is over ten years older than I am, if that is imaginable. He even recalls personally from childhood the complacency and indifference of the pre-WW2 British public at large to the threat of imminent war with the nazis. They buried their heads in the sand. They didn’t want to know. They felt no imminent personal danger and could see no obvious sign of it. They were leading comfortable, easy lives and didn’t want that equilibrium upset. Anyway, we’d just had ‘the war to end all wars’, WW1. There couldn’t be another. It was just scaremongering by people like Churchill who loved wars and wanted to set one up. They were safely insulated from ‘revolver-toting thugs’ out of sight and mind hundreds of miles away killing a few foreigners who were nothing to do with Britain and who probably deserved it anyway. (Lovelock says he sees frightening parallels with our blinkered attitude towards what is happening to the planet’s climate and ecosytems right now.)

    But the Bomb changed all that. Suddenly those thugs with revolvers (including in the view of some, your own thugs) were right here pointing a loaded one at you personally, all the time, night and day, wherever you were and whatever you were doing, in bed asleep, on the loo in the middle of a reflective crap, having sex, whatever. Their finger was tight on the trigger and they could blow you and everybody and everything you loved away with a twitch of that finger. Of course that’s as true as ever, except fingers are at least off the triggers and not twitchy nowadays, which is comforting enough for most of us.

    For that reason, Randall, a good many people little younger than I am and no few of the same age, most of them now grandparents, and several with memories of WW2, got involved with those movements trying to get the bomb banned unilaterally. They too also raved against the war criminals in the States who ordered Hiroshima, despite knowing about the war against Japan. In my experience, it wasn’t simply later generations than ourselves. The Bomb just scared the calm logic out of them and stirred up the natural idealistic left-wing tendancies of many young people. (O.K. in my generally trend-bucking way, I’ve actually become more liberal and less Conservative with age, if more cynical with it.)

    Of course it’s impossible to play a different version of history. Who knows what would have happened had the west openly destroyed all its nuclear weapons and waited for the soviets to do the same? But we can at least apply a little actual past history from elsewhere. Is it reasonable to suppose total disarmament by France, Britain and Russia before 1939 would have caused Hitler to demilitarise and shelve all his plans (and it’s fair to parallel the megalomaniac mentalities of Hitler and Stalin)? Also would the soviets have believed the gesture: or not unreasonably have suspected some trick – hidden missiles ‘up the sleeve’ maybe, or even the existence of some secret new and even more deadly U.S. weapon? Perhaps they might have accused the U.S. of having non-existent ‘weapons of mass destruction’. Now there’s a thought.

    Did those who chanted ‘Better red than dead’ really think that was the simplistic choice on offer? Did they not realise how readily ‘and’ could be substituted for ‘than’? Did they have any idea of what the nazis did to millions of Jews and others? Or of the six million Ukranians – is it – who died of starvation thanks to ‘red’ Stalin, not to mention the massive culls of his purges? Did they really believe that people who cave in to the threat of force with servility and nothing more than the wish for personal survival at any price can maintain a minimal sense of human pride and dignity? I used to wonder.

    Now for MY conspiracy theory that those nuclear (or ‘nucular’, as many who took part in them insisted on saying!) disarmament movements were set up by Soviet agents! (I’m sure I’m hardly the first with the theory though.) Why was westerners hatred and fury always directed solely against their own governments? No protest on Soviet territory would have been possible, of course, but demos might at least have ‘demo’nised both sides. Soviet embassies, cultural events, etc., could have been the subject of picketing. But if they were, I never heard of it. Instead it was all our fault. We invented the Bomb. We used the Bomb. We didn’t share it with the Russkies. We threatened them with it. So they were simply poor victims who of course had to keep up their side of the arms race to protect themselves from us. Or so my friends of that persuasion had it. In answer to my question what if the Soviets had in invented the Bomb with a 2-year start on the west, would Stalin would have refrained from using it against us? Their answer was simply that all Stalin wanted was to be left in peace to rebuild his communist paradise. The wicked imperialistic aggressive U.S. government was the demon, and our other lesser western government were either cowardly or criminal coat-tailers.

    One can only imagine the Kremlinites, totally free of any kind of internal pressure, rubbing their hands with glee and even wondering whether this pressure might eventually cause their opponents to cave in.

    When Glasnost arrived, those anti-American friends of mine claimed that their pressure had helped to produce it. But might anti-nuclear movements actually have prolonged the stand-off?

    Well, thank God for Dr Strangelove, says I, who kept me sane and helped me to Love the Bomb. If only the brilliant Peter Sellers had been spared longer …

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  • Rowdy

    The conspiracy is vast and touches all these minor theories… 9/11 wasn’t exactly a “US government” job, it was the world shadow government. The illuminati killed Princess di, aliens and UFOs exist, Jesuits and Zionists are illuminati. Their is so much to all this, we’ve been lied to for probably thousands of years. Ever wonder what “treasures” they are hiding in the Vatican? Anyone heard of the 13 skulls? How about indigo children?

    Rise up!

  • Spanner in the works

    Oh, God, Rowdy,

    Then only Indiana Jones can save us all.

  • casanova

    i love the page but come on global warming thatz no joke it rained in the north pole “IT FUCKING RAINED IN THE NORTH POLE” datz no Conspiracy b real thatz da only one i think you shouldnt have put ppl are ganna think itz a Conspiracy when clearly itz not itz a seriouse problem and we gatta do sumthing bout it


  • casanova: let’s not forget that no one measures rain in the North Pole (until now) – the scientists admit that they have no idea whether it is a regular thing or not. Just because we have never seen it before, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened before. They will monitor it much closer now.

  • casanova

    true but b real, the ice caps are melting the balance between the fresh water and salt water is being thrown off, thatz y the wheaters so wack where getting hurricans in central america last i heard that wasnt suppost to happen cuz of da ocean currents itz all “FACT”

  • Spanner in the works

    Mind if I join in, cas & jfr?

    Sorry, but I’ll have to put on my serious NATURAL history hat here.

    Point one, I’m quite surprised that anyone without a good reason not to see it (Al Gore’s ‘inconventient truth, that is) should still doubt that industrial civilisation is drastically and dangerously altering the conditions which support a more or less stable life-system on the planet.

    When I say ‘a good reason to doubt it’, I mean, for example, folks who are making lots on lots of juicy bucks by shitting up the only home we’ve all got.

    Turning the blind eye. Of course, plenty of people suspect they have terminal illnesses and don’t want to know, or manage to convince themselves the doc who told them they have is simply an ignorant quack.

    For sure cas is spot-on (so far as I can suss the jargon). There is just too much overwhelming evidence coming together on too many fronts, including those major examples cas cites.

    Some people who think otherwise like to point out how everything either hasn’t been proved, or has happened before anyway, and so is a perfectly natural phenomenon: ice-age fluctuations, distance from the sun, El Niño, La Niña, getting out of bed on the wrong side this morning … etc., etc. Others simply live in Alaska and know their shit.

    Naturally it hasn’t been proved, because it hasn’t sodding well happened before. Do we just wait until Planet Earth is totally uninhabitable and then say, “O.K. folks, now it’s properly proved. Let’s get on and do something about it”?

    As for the other “excuse”, that everything is simply Mother(-fucking) Nature up to her usual tricks, nothing more, open your eyes, disbelievers. Wettest (or driest) year since records were started. More hurrincanes in central America in one season than you can shake a stick at. Hottest summer somewhere since 1911. Last similar British floods in 1950. First time somne river froze over since 1894. Of course, taken in isolation there’s nothing particularly alarming. After all, climate records are like Olympic or Guinness records, there to be broken from time to time. But put them together, and you’ll find squashed within a few years from all over the world dozens and dozens of ‘since 1894s’ ‘since 1950s’ ‘since 1911s’ ‘since records started’, and so on.

    And as I’ve already said above, that’s not to mention the sheer speed with which melting ice, rising sea-levels and global temeratures are accelerating compared with previous natural rates running back tens of thousands of years, which can be accurately measured from ice cores (and corroborated for several thousand years by tree rings, as these are sensitive to climate).

    That’s all I’m going to say. I could give you heaps more detailed statistics from my own speciality, but that would only bore the arse off you more than I’m already doing.

    So if you don’t want to know, or can’t be bothered to read Al Gore, or Lovelock’s Gaia series of books, then welcome to our probable future collective funeral.

    Conspiracy theory? Well maybe it is. A conspiracy by Homo sapiens, which was perhaps inevitably set in motion from the moment we evolved, to bugger up our own planet. Or perhaps it was even set up when life itself started on the planet, programmed so it would eventually self-destruct. Who do we blame for that? Dubya Bush? Why not, he’s not doing anything to stop it. Will the next guy in the White House?

    Yours truly, with nowehere else but the Third Rock to go.

  • Spanner in the works


    Talking of the Third Rock, at least Dick & Co could ‘go home’.

  • aishling

    i believe the majority of which is wrote in these theories.
    people need to open up their minds and expand upon which they normally are afraid to.
    wateva you believe as long as you are happy.

  • Spanner in the works

    but of course.
    i believe in father xmas and the tooth fairie and i am happie.
    i would be even happier if fx would still fill my stocking with pressies and if I still had any spare teeth to fall out, so the tf would leave a shiny coin under my pillow.

  • nahums84

    man i am a big fan of Robert “Bobby” Kennedy and i think that his assassination should be on there. Also i hope the truth can be found about the assassination of J.F.K.–

    the thing is that the truth will always find it’s way out no matter how well that you try to cover it up it will find a crack and it will just keep getting bigger.

    Nice list man

  • R

    I love the list, man.
    Now all we need is Jimmy Hoffa….lol

  • Spanner in the works

    Nice sane viewpoints,nahums 84.

    Apropos, how easy it is to knock off good guys like the Kennedys and Lincoln. Yet you can kill just about everyone else around Hitler and Pinochet and still leave them standing untouched? I guess it proves the Devil may be pretty good at looking after his own by working miracles too!

    I like to think and hope the truth will out too, and Watergate gives me a lot of encouragement. I suppose the counter-argument is that if it doesn’t out, then we never know. Also, the longer it stays under wraps the more difficult it often is to get out for various reasons. On the other hand there’s another true saying that the more people know a secret, the harder it becomes to keep. I take hope from that as well. Ever noticed how few people you know can keep a simple secret?

    But movies, fiction and real-life would be a lot less fun without conspiracy theories … wouldn’t they?

  • nahums84

    OMG i love this comment by Spanner in the works “I guess it proves the Devil may be pretty good at looking after his own by working miracles too!”—-bro i can totally feel u

    R.I.P. R.F.K. u too J.F.K.

  • Spanner in the works

    Questions for U, jfrater.

    Presumably there are active and passive visitors to the sites, and clearly the actives have thinned right out. Do you have any idea whether folks just log in still to read, and if so, how many and when? I ask as a total e-incompetent who feels like a blind guy tapping away in an empty room. IS THERE ANYBODY THERE … or am I just tapping to myself?

    Further to that last, most reactions to your TENS came within a few days of posting. How do all those folks immediately know something new like this has come up? I just happened on you when surfing for info to do with something else.

    I’m also idle. I had an idea the Iron Mountain conspiracy theory (to do with global warming) had been raised by someone in TOP or ANOTHER. Didn’t notice it during a quick skim through though (haven’t even read all of ANOTHER properly yet). Can you say? I ask ‘cos it cropped up recently where we live.

    Finally, I guess my cheek full of tongue about the Jews making a better fist of running the world belongs over here (nº6) rather than with ANOTHER.

  • Vera Lynn

    #133 Spanner in the Works Huh? What’s a “better fist?”

  • Spanner in the works: if you look at the top right hand side of this page you will see a list of recent comments and recent lists – you will find most people are posting there now – that is usually what happens. Does this answer your question?

  • Spanner in the works

    Testing, testing, testing.

    Yesterday I wrote up a whole load of bumf at one of your newer sites and the carrier didn’t post it. I had to copy the lot out by hand rather than lose it as it was written directly here and I had no means of copying electronically. I was pissed off. Ì tried here without joy too.

    So I’m sending this test card before risking wasting more time.

  • Spanner in the works

    O.K. We’re back in business again.


    Yes, and many thanks for the above ‘instruction for the simple-minded’ about your other list sites, etc. I did warn you I was pretty e-gnorant, and a bit of a thick-e.

    On the other hand I do tend to adopt EXTREMELY blinkered vision when clocked onto the network and ONLY tend to look at essential basics plus messages on the white numbered panels (in your case). At times I read from the most recent of these up and never even eventually get around to the earlier stuff! Reason: sites are just stuffed full all down the borders with time-wasting ads and bait trying to sell me things I don’t want, or distracting me to other sites I’m not interested in. Half the time they don’t even seem to be related to the actual main contents at all. So as with a lot of ads in newspapers, I simply don’t even bother to look … That’s how stuff like your trailers gets missed.

    Vera Lynn, Forces Sweetheart, see my next posting for your answer.

  • Vera Lynn

    Waiting… still waiting…still waiting….

  • Vera Lynn

    Spanner in the Works How much longer will you make a lady wait?

  • Vera Lynn

    Spanner in the works Sorry darlin’ but I ain’t you’re “Sweetheart” I belong to MPW. ;)

  • Vera Lynn

    I mean “your” possessive not contraction. My bad.

  • Spanner in the works

    Vera, baby,

    A good fist = doing something well

    A better fist = doing something better

    A poor fist = being cack-handed or making a cock-up.

    For more explanation and details of useage and probable origin, try ‘World Wide Words: Fist’ in the Google box, or

    There, I’m not a complete electronic dummy after all.

    In return, please may I have a verse of “There’ll be bluebirds over the White Cliffs of Dover tomorrow, just you wait and see”? We’ve got quite a bit of your output on CD. So glad you’re still going strong. We heard you sing live in central London by the Thames for the 50th anniversary of the end of WW2 in 1995. Great voice still.

  • Spanner in the works


    Vera Lynn isn’t/wasn’t my Sweetheart or anybody’s sweetheart, she was everybody in uniforms’ sweetheart. And married too.

    Sorry. I got called away for evening meal. Salmon trout. Couldn’t let it get cold, even for Vera Lynn! Anita is jealous.

  • Spanner in the works

    Are you O.K. on cack-handed?

  • Spanner in the works


    Somefink wierd’s ‘appened, boss.

    The top RHS of my page went completely blank and all the contents shot right down the bottom after the typing space.

    I like a nice, comfortable, well-ordered world

    See you over at 10 Funny Fat Guys.

  • Spanner in the works: thanks – fixed :)

  • Vera Lynn

    When the sun sinks to rest and the star of the West sheds it’s soft silvery light o’er the sea
    What sweet thought arise as the twilight dies, for then I am thiking of thee
    Oh then crowding fast comes the joy of the past through the dimness of days long gone by
    Like the stars peeping out through the darkness about from the soft silent depths of the sky
    And thus as the night grows more lovely and bright
    In silence my heart is more free
    The rude world to forget
    Where no pleasure I met
    Since the hour I parted from thee.

    To Spanner

    For MPW

    For MPW

  • Spanner in the works

    O, how lovely, Vera.

    Thanks. Better than I could possibly have hoped for. After all, I know ‘Blue Birds’ like the back of my hand.

    After such an exquisite and appreciated offering I couldn’t possibly sully the context with a sordid explanation of cack-handed either, so I truly hope that is unnecessary.

  • Spanner in the works

    More server problems, so


  • Spanner in the works

    O.K. Back on air.

    You know the area I hang out, Jamie Frater. Is this a local geographical problem of mine, or are you having general problems? Luckily I didn’t write much (over on fatties again) so copying wasn’t ‘The Scream’ like last time.

    Here’s what beamed up:


    The requested URL CD not retrieved

    While trying to retrieve the URl:
    the following error was encountered:

    .Zero Sized Reply

    Squid did not receive any data from this request.

    (There followed a short blue-lettered code I won’t send in case it identifies my site. If you need it, let me know, and how to send it to you)


    Generated 7UK (it looks like) 01 jul 2008 19.00.05 (and other times near that) by (squid2.6STABLE 6)

    I’m wiser now. I’ll always write up everything first on a file, as I do for e-mail, and copy onto yours. (Ah I just see I think I can do that in reverse, so all my handwriting may have been in vain!)

    I recently found ALL your lists. I think it may ruin what’s left of my working life. Maybe I won’t even have enough life left for the lists. There are scads of them, so I’m also going to starve to death like the donkey with so many bales of hay, it couldn’t choose which. Anita will kill me for not getting on with ‘proper’ work. I know I belong in your (future) list of The World’s Top 10 Most Easily Distracted People for sure. My head’s whirling from that List of Lists. I just copied it onto 19 sides and will have to colour line a SMALL selection for attention.

    Do you want ideas, including contents suggestions, for new lists? I think I have at least two very good general-appeal ones and a promising if rather more specialised third. If so let me know how to communicate.

    Oh, and Happy List Anniversary, I see.

  • Spanner in the works

    Yes, I can indeed copy and print back onto a personal computer file. No real problem now then. What a prat. Why didn’t I discover the technique earlier? Blinded by rage, I suppose.

  • MPW

    very beautiful Vera Lynn, thanks

  • Spanner in the works

    I’ve just come fresh over from athletes turned actors. I see Blogball set that up. So the idea is to do your own and send in? I’ve also found the Ways to Help Listverse title in the List of Lists, so I’ll check that out when I’ve got a bit of time before coming back to you again if more instructions are still needed then.

  • jasonpariah

    Waco and Ruby ridge would be great additions to this list.

  • morgan mole

    I have operated at the most senior military and geo-political positions over the last 20 years and i can confirm that the above conspiracy theories are all correct and true….i was there when the USS Elderidge dissapeared before my very eyes and know that it was Prince Philip himself that spiked the drinks of the driver of Diana’s car in Paris…..

  • So that would make you, what? seventy years old at least… Get the fuck out of here. Proof that you didn’t even serve is in the the Spelling of USS Eldridge. DE-173 was the hull designation and if you had Actually served you would have included that.

    Calling yourself a mole on such a government unprotected site, makes you that much more of a Idiot. If you Are indeed So high in the rankings, Jamie will be contacted shortly, your post will disappear, and you’ll never be able to post again.

    Best of luck Dumbass!

  • Spanner in the worksj


    I’m at least seventy years old too.

    As for the mole, only a few know where that is, bless ’em, and they have all signed the government’s Official Secrets Act, haven’t you Daphne, Marion, Phyllis, Katarina, Gretchen, Syrene, Felicity, Yvonne, Kristin … Ahhhh. Time I retired from active service.

    Government unprotected? Never, suh! Too much a gentleman for that.

  • ??? you lost me.

  • Spanner in the worksj


    I was just using yours as a word- theme-springboard for a bit of a wrinkley 007 leg-pull based on my own age. Have to try to sprinkle the ponderous stuff with some leavening every now and again or I’d end up like at least one other around here. Sorry it was too scattershot to hit the roundel, let alone the bullseye.

  • Ah. Got ya. Generation gap, don’t fall in. It’s two floors down. Bond flicks aren’t my thing either. Most references to Double O will go right over my head.

  • Spanner in the worksj


    Well, not entirely, I do also live in the present. Bond flicks are ongoing, and are also linked by other reasonably recent ‘culture’.

    Lying restless abed with insomnia from my tortured, guilt-ridden mind (actually I’d eaten too much cheese too late), it occurred to me I might have put that it was a short gross-out of Austin Powers, and the names were a list from which the appended “… who shagged me” might have come from.
    However, if you’re not into Bond you may not even know who Austin Powers is (JOKE, Guv). I’m not a Bond fanatic, I haven’t seen numbers of them, and don’t have Bondfax at my command. However, Bond is a cultural icon, and a useful conversational topic with so many I know and meet.

    It’s a bit unfair sticking the generation label thing on me. Trolling through the lists I am astonished how much people know in detail of the history of my times and way back beyond (have a shufti at the recent presidents’ one). I’d also point out that there are no fewer than four Bond lists in Listverse, and they got a decent if modest response. I think I was just unlucky in that you’re not into dublo (as opposed to dubya).

    No doubt you’re right about generation though. It occurs to me when I seem to be writing to thin air that it may well be because some specific preoccupations and interests of mine are simply not synchronising with anybody else who’s posting (the great early Disney films currently). However, taste and interests vary hugely within as well as across generations, and most of my friends are far younger than me. Try pulling a dozen or so 7-decaders off the street and see out how many are as currently informed, flexible-minded, and broadly in touch with trends as I am.

    I might have added we are also from different countries and cultures, but that’s only marginally and individually significant. I’m perfectly in tune with heaps of fine Americans; in Listverse, in the states, and where I now live

  • Spanner in the worksj

    Hey, now here’s co-incidence. There’s a reference to Austin Powers in the ‘Recent comments’ immediately below mine!

  • Spanner: I’ll refer to the “Hat” arguments earlier. There are still somethings the more “Esteemed” generations will not understand. Like wise, there are things from your generation that I don’t understand, ie Bell bottoms, toupees, and reading the obituaries first in the morning. I’m using US based items, because I’m not quite sure where you are geographically.

    Cross-cultural differences help in the everyday. Your slow driving keeps Us young bucks in check on the road and our Need to get things done quicker (when you can find a kid with good work ethic) gets Your food to you at a speed that keeps your complaints down.

    The Great Melting Pot that is USA, is over heating and the Fondue that is our society is ceasing up. We need more people of Your mind here. The isn’t enough respect anymore.

    When there is a Gap, Make a bridge!

    I speak of the generations like I do because I’ve seen the Gap grow wider. Make point that I do not refer to You precisely in my Age rants, just the majority of what I have seen of your generation.


    Bond flicks I don’t shy away from, I just don’t choose to watch them if there is something better to do. Brosnan is the only Bond that I cared about. I was pretty out of sink with the world for awhile, so I never got the daily recommended Bond that I should have. I’ll take Bourne any day though.

    PS. I’m having problems loading YV: Does God Exist. Be patient, be there ASAP.

  • Those jabs were meant to be taken humorously.

  • Spanner in the worksj

    Crimanon, I know, and they were!

    Amazing. Nearly everyone puts Connery up there as THE James Bond. I rate Connery as one of my favourite actors (‘The Hill’, ‘The Name of the Rose’, to cite two lesser ones), but he’s too much Connery to sink into a James Bond image for me. I couldn’t agree more that Brosnan is the only one who has recognisable, chiselled features, but not so recognisable that you cannot impose Bond over them. Oh, God, sounds like I’m taking dublo more seriously than I do.

    Crimanon, in many respects the age gap was much more rigid and wider when I was a kid. Then I had to kowtow to grown-ups and wait to grow up in order to take part in ‘adult’ life, and could only listen to THEIR music and play with toys and models meanwhile. I sometimes feel I lost out totally, because now I’m condemned to suffer from the other end. I mean the dictatorial tyranny of rich-teeny culture: as so-called music I hate played loudly at me in supermarkets or from neighbour’s houses; as inane graffiti on walls and statues wherever we go; as kids, sweet young girls included, effing and blinding loudly in public places (they often cow adults on public transport too); and as phalanxes of swaggering schoolkids trying to shoulder Anita and me into the road (they often get hit with the sharp end of my shoulder first), etc., etc. The pathetic thing is that many people up to 50 or more are desperately trying to keep abreast of these shifting teeny cultures so that they can be seen as being as young as they’ve made themselves look by silicone and stretching. Of course they’re simply a laughing stock. Whatever happened to growing old gracefully? Then there are the buggers of all ages who wake us up on night buses, interrupt thoughts, peace and conversations by shouting into mobile ‘phones, and who occasionally wipe out a family of innocents when doing the same driving along in a car and losing control. That may make me sound a miserable old fart, but if you read carefully, you’ll notice that every one of my complaints is where other’s behaviour intrudes unacceptably into my (our) life. Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn what people do so long as it doesn’t affect me in a negative way.

    So from my angle, it’s as least as much the young who are creating the gap, although I’ll grant you I’m probably more tolerant than most of my age (even politically I’ve metamorphosed from A Young Conservatyve to liberal).

    I’ve never worn bell-bottoms. Toupees? I belong to bald pride: my favourite jab at kids who think it’s funny or likely to enrage me when they shout “baldy” is to remind them gently that the strands of dead cells on the outside of their heads are so important to them since they’ve always been bald of live cells on the inside. Of course, they wouldn’t get it like that, so it comes out as, “Better hair-dead than brain-dead like you little shits”. One day I’ll probably get knifed by a bunch of them.

    I only read obits when we are visiting England and staying with friends who take cheap rags like ‘The Times’, ‘The Independent’ and ‘The Telegraph’. However, I can tell you in all seriousness, that I’ve learned so much and found so many fascinating stories about war heroes, inventors and explorers, etc., from obits, that I’m sorry not to be able to read them every morning.

    Have a care, baby. Don’t dare label me ‘esteemed’ or I might kick you in the balls for being patronising. Yo be labelled special catefory simply because of the time I’ve been around this earth is only going to cut me off from others. I’ll not have that. Of course, I know, you were only kidding.

    English (southern) living and working in South America. Does that put even geographically?

  • Spanner in the worksj


    When I said play with toys and models above, I should make clear that I was referring to model aicraft, ships, etc., not, alas, the type that wiggle their bums seductively along walkways. Chance would have been a fine thing …

  • Spanner in the worksj

    Sorry about the garbled last couple of paras, I missed out on checking them. Hope you can make sense.

  • Spanner in the worksj

    And ah,

    I don’t drive slowly. I drive as fast as I know is safe under the circumstances. Anita often thinks that is too fast.
    I love driving at speed. My joint best friend in England is the same age as I am. He drives around single track Devon lanes at around 80 mph. Never seems to have problems, I guess because he knows them like the back of his hand, but it really scares shit out of me because I don’t. Another friend, just retired, used to drive even faster than that into to London to work and back everyday through a long maze of narrow, winding Essex country roads.

    But they have passed 70 and 60 respectively, and, like me, without accidents involving injury, so I guess that speaks for itself. Fast but careful and experienced.


    i feel u josh0, but u must also know that tupac was born into the black panther movement as his parents and grandparents were panther party higher members, his mother was arrested for over a hundred counts of conspiracy to bomb public places and so-on, he was capable of being a leader himself and was definately onto something big in his not to be future, imagine what would be his agender if he was still alive with the contacts he has and you only have to listen to his music and you can see he was thinkin about the way his country was run not just for black but white people aswell, im not sayin he would have become president but i feel he was a threat to white american congress views and had a very powerfull way to reach the community with his views. congess didnt want americas people to call each other n****s and b*****s and become that sort of society. there was lots of incidents with dan quale, wendy williams and so on, they cited rap as evil but it was because of the power of the movement (revolution).He was very capable of making people unite, rally, commit suicide, shoot police and belive in his speech’s.
    we have seen entertainers become public figures and generaly they are the ones we admire and respect more than the square ones.
    anyway the mystery is who ordered the killing of tupac was it suge knight (his own record label boss),i say yes it was
    he is a gangster and had atleast 30 of duty L.a. cops working for him as security and it would have been easy for one of them to shoot him and the rest of them would cover it up- no arrests have been made on either 2pac or biggie murder and the police have said they arnt connected -AS IF –
    the same person ordered both murders


    59. JoshO – December 21st, 2007 at 7:25 pm

    Has anyone thought about Tupac and Biggie. There are theories that our government were behind their so called killings. If you think about it, the time of their deaths were in a time where riots were breaking out everywhere and constantly. during the time of tupac’s death, he was staging a huge riot, one of astronomical numbers, or so I have been told by others, and our government was fed up and didnt want to deal with an incident like that so they just took him out.

    Think about this, what are the odds of someone or somebodies getting away with a shooting like that, especially in las vegas where there are many people on every corner at all hour of the night. And there were no witnesses. Now who are the only people who can get away with whatever they want and hide anything they want from the public’s eyes, our government.

    Also take this into account. Government officials could have been pissed at him because of the fact that he got away with killing two cops. The cops tried to assault tupac with weopons they stole from the evidence room and they were intoxicated at the time and were the ones doing the provoking. Tupac shot both of them in self defence.

    Just thought I would throw that out there. I would like to hear other’s opinions.

  • Rachel

    about global warming…
    i dont want to believe that its truely happening. but i do because i want humans to see that they aren’t supreme beings..
    personaly i think that the climate is changing-not because the greenhouse effect- but because the land is moving…
    years ago the land was all joined, like al gore said himself, the land moved and maybe its still doing it… ice caps are melting because they are moving nearer the equator, is-say the usa- moved up it would eventuly becaome an ice dome.
    anyway… i still think humans are being selfish


    RE 170. Rachel – July 14th, 2008 at 8:15 am

    yes that is a good point and they say that the continents shifted and moved a long time ago and if that was true then they should be still moving although it takes millions of years to move just a small way. also they have said years ago that london will be under water in the future and birmingham will be the capital city but i dont know when this is supposed to happen

  • Spanner in the works

    Rachel and Makavelli-UK,

    Makka, You are correct. The tectonic process (continental drift, movement of land surface) happens continuously all the time and it happens extremely slowly. But not so slowly that we don’t get eathquakes and volcanoes when a few metres or so of one plate jabs underneath another. Where I live we get both!

    But this has nothing to do with climate change and global warming. It happens so incredibly slowly that both climate and biological life have plenty of time to adapt stably.

    If you read above, you will find more views about this subject, some of them extremely stupid, but the main site for it here on Listverse is: ‘Your View: Global Warming’. Some of the stuff is a bit complicated, but you might try. I’ve written there, but haven’t even had time to read all the comments myself (there are 285). Some of them are bound to be stupid as well, so read and think with care!


    YES Global warming is not something new hence it is not actually global warming in that sense
    and i believe the planet and atmosphere has a self cleaning enviroment that cleans the air and stuff of things naturaly made ie fire smoke and gas’s – everything made here is natural in some degree as it is made from the earths provision even heroin is natural

    do u disagree

    the rain is recycled and this is part of the self cleaning process

  • Spanner in the works


    Just read as much (sensible) comment as you can about the subject and try to build a picture from that. When one says one thing, and one another, don’t just accept the one you’d llike to be true, go for the one with the strongest and best argument. As I recommended before, read all the postings on the subject here, and also on the other list. If you haven’t read the book by Al Gore, ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ then you should. It makes a large and difficult subject quite easy to follow. Much better to read the book than see the film too. I happen to broadly agree with Gore’s view. Not everyone does.


    a different subject the biggest conspiracy of all time has to be the bible as there are numerous refferences to people from space to say the least. also i understand that it has been re-written and translated so many times that it cant be classed as primary information but secondary also out of 80 something books making up the whole book, 20 books are missing which i am told span 400 years.
    ufos feature in the bible and in most of the text about yehova, angels, lucifer, and christ it sounds like they are talking about people from space, if they are not then where are they talking about.heaven is another word for sky in its original meaning, people are refferd to as trees as if that was the way humans interpreted that we were put here to grow.

    i would like your informed thoughts on this dont just reply if you believe aliens arnt real and god is in the sky with angels and human spirits that have passed away


  • zeit g

    to crimanon. just wanted to say concerning ur post near the top,the future of the world is in our childrens hands not ours, pop stars have more influence on people than so called world leaders ever will,these pop stars are there leaders(kurt cobain, tupac shakur,etc)its important for them to no what happend to them,do you think if bush was assasinted people would still be showing that much intrest in 15/20 years.last year kurt cobain was the highest earning dead artist before even elvis presley.personally i find this more interesting than some dissapering ship,or some women that thinks the virgin mary told her a secret.

  • zeit g: I’ll do this bit by bit;

    “the future of the world is in our childrens hands not ours”… How can a little five year old or a stoney twelve year old or a drunken seventeen year old do Anything productive for the future? It ALL starts with the parents instilling morals and educating children. Without parents this whole place would be Chaos. Lord of the Flies was controversial because that’s the sort of things kids do. Do you want your society like That?

    “pop stars have more influence on people”… You mean like Britney, Lindsey, and Paris. If That’s what they are influenced by then I’ll vote for postpartum abortion. Pop culture has replaced family values, and If I wasn’t frank enough just now, then, The Can Call Rot In My Basement.

    “do you think if bush was assasinted people would still be showing that much intrest in 15/20 years” If they Don’t then they deserve to burn in the war the will destroy us. I hope our Country is Better than that.

    “personally i find this more interesting than some dissapering ship,or some women that thinks the virgin mary told her a secret.” It’s good to know where you stand on these matters, I’m happy that you have an opinion. Even if that opinion makes you look like the Very thing that I’m railing against. You sir, Can Kiss My American Patriot Ass.

  • herbert the pervert




  • Spanner in the works


    I think perhaps the most valuable illustration you could have given was Mao’s so-called Cultural Revolution, when 5 year-olds were given the reins and asked to provide information that would send their parents to prison … or worse. It worked, didn’t it? Look where China is now: aping American capitalism. Of course, a bit pointless on this site and to the people you’re addressing now. I imagine the response will be a slack-mouthed, “What’s Mao?”, and “Never heard of The Cultural Revolution. When was their last gig.”

    • IrishMilitant

      I think you greatly underestimate young people..

  • Cyn

    herbert the pervert –
    i hope like hell this is your way, pervert, of telling us you’ll not return. not only is choice of name disturbing but your use of all caps is against netiquette.
    so good riddance.

  • Herb the Perv: I’m just going to smile and nod at you. “Slothern”… how cute. I’ll have to use that some time. Yankee by blood, Dickhead by Choice.

    Spanner: You got that Mao thing right on the nose. So I used a more recent cultural ref.

    This conversation has diverged from what it should be, So I’ll repeat; It’s up to the parents to instill morals and educate children. Children leading the Children, How very Return to Thunder Dome.

  • Nat

    My history teacher brought up a very good point a couple of months ago. With both World Wars and with this ‘war on terror’ (Maybe there are others, but I don’t have the time to look them up right now), there has always been some defining ‘Tradgedy’ that brought them in.

    It can be argued that the Lusitania was a british conspiracy to get the Americans to join World War 1, And though Pearl Harbor to me looks more like a genuine attack than a conspiracy, I do see a few discreptancies.
    And lastly, no matter how hard I try I can’t see 9/11 as being anything but shady. Maybe I’ve watched too many conspiracy video’s but it just seems a little… forced.

  • EXE

    Have you guys heard the conspiracy theory that Area 51 was closed after some of its workers (known only in legal records as John Does and Jane Does) got a mysterious and unknown disease, one of the symptoms of which caused their skin to blister and turn scaly…
    They were ordered to keep their mouths shut because Area 51 was top secret…


    to EXE

    i dont think that is a conspiracy theory mate just a rumour and a silly one aswell wich holds no weight atall.
    especially due to the fact that the public can no walk around area 51 with no chance of developing any diseases.

    i dont know next people will be sayin that aids was captured from an alien and cultured for the human race to kill any aliens mimicking us.

  • Mad Macca

    What about Hitler being cloned.

  • Roffaz

    What do you think about the face of jesus on mars, stone henge, pryamids?? We all know aliens exist, dont we?! im thinking that maybe there was life on mars, a long time ago, maybe mars is the way it is because of global warming due to the previous existance of life on mars?
    Am i talking rubbish here, or can any1 else see where im coming from?

  • Alan James

    The JFK thing….didnt i read somewhere that Lee Oswalds killer, Jack Ruby the night club owner, were supposed to be unconnected yet they had stayed in the same motel at the same time 3 months before the shooting.

  • Alan James

    The moon landing thing…..isnt there supposed to be a radiation belt (Van Allen belt but correct me please if i’m wrong) that you would have to pass through to get to the moon….so severe that that an astronaut would need to be in a lead lined capsule 6 feet thick to survive the massive radiation hit. I didnt think the Apollo craft were that thick.

  • Alan James

    The Princess Diana thing…..just a piece of bad driving.

  • Mad Macca

    I disagree, Pricess diana was pushed out of the royal family she knew far too much about the goings on there wich left her in a vulnerable position. she was just a pawn in the procreation of that family. Imagine what the princes would look like if it had been camila in that roll. As Princess Ann was asked if she would rarther of been a maid she answerd at least a maid has a choice!


    princess dianna


    if you were in england a month or 2 b4 it happend you will know the basis for the theory and the media coverage over the pre deaths was amazing, one of the last front pages in the sun newspaper before the deaths said of diana “i have something to say in the next week that will shock the world” the world and not just an english ruled country.
    she new her life was in danger but thought her new arab boyfriend had adequite security as he was a prince in his own right and she maybe didnt realise that she wasnt the only one who knew what she was going to reveal, she believed that she would live to tell the world her secret and only after that would she become vunlerable.
    which wold explain her plans to move away from uk.

    they say that more peeps in arab countries belive the theory than english but i think the english stats on this have been falsified and i think the peeps in england have more of an unbiased attitude towards both of the deaths as we understand that there was a terrible event that night, where the arabians i more concerned about the motive


    princess diana continued

    we seem to be more concerned about the actual cover up and event than the actual motive

  • Mad Macca

    Alan James – J.F.K. Wee all Knew it was Oliver Stone!

  • Vincent

    The British intelligence have cracked the Japanese code long before pearl harbor. there is a chance that they did not warn the USA so that they would join the war because the war in Europe wasn’t going well for the British since all the other countries were under German occupation.

  • Anon

    194, Vincent.

    This sounds plausible, but why? Why not warn America if the British knew? What was to be gained? The mere fact of the Japanese attack would inevitably have led to a declaration of war. Why weaken your new ally by costing him a good part of one of his major fleets and the destruction of one of his most important strategic bases?

  • Vincent

    The reason the British did not warn the Americans could be that they feared if the American government reacted in time, the damage would not be sufficient to persuade congress and especially the American People to go to war. They would just think it was propaganda in order to make them fight for their country. At the time, even now, without the people’s support, going to war with another country would cause big problems for the government (remember the huge anti-war movement in America during the Vietnam war). The British were not willing to take the risk because they were losing the war in Europe. the whole of Europe including France was under Nazi occupation and the USSR too seems to be having difficulties fighting the Nazi troops.

  • Anon


    Let me take you back to the event.

    The attack was planned and prepared in the greatest secrecy. The Japanese had to be extremely careful it wouldn’t be discovered and anticipated by ordinary spying. So just how much information might have been gleaned beforehand from wireless code interception anyway? And how long before the attack in order to be absolutely sure and give time for adequate preparation by the Americans?

    Have you seen the two major films which reconstruct the attack? They give a pretty good idea of its size and strength. So does historical footage taken at the time.
    It was a massive armada. Even had the Americans put up their defence fighters at the ready, there would still have been one helluva schemozzle. The outcome is pretty predictable too. Despite the vast-sounding number of US aircraft on Pearl (384 to the Japanese total of 350), most were obsolete or not designed for combat. At that stage even the best US fighters, the P-40s, were tending towards obscolescence and were no match for the combat-hardened Japanese pilots in their magnificent Zeros, one of the war’s finest fighting machines (‘Air Warfare’, Jackson, p. 113). The Zeros would have engaged and comfortably occupied the best the Americans could throw at them, still allowing the more vulnerable Kates and Vals to get through and deliver torpedoes and bombs. We cannot know what the damage would have been, but we can be sure there would have been a massive air battle, with many US losses, indeed, almost certainly more pilot-loss than actually happened, and undoubtedly significant damage to ships. Even forewarned, the battle would have been huge and bloody (around 400-500 combat aircraft milling around in engagement), with a big US body count, probably including many non-combatants. That would have been war with the support of the people. That the Japanese would undoubtedly have lost many more ‘planes and pilots is neither here or there. As it was, more and more Americans were becoming sickened by Nazi aggression and atrocities by then, and would not have needed the extra push to war you seem to envisage.

    Of course, forewarned, the US would have put its Pacific fleet safely to sea anyway, as the carriers were by lucky chance. What would that signify? That the Japanese attack force would then have turned its entire attention to trying to totally destroy the ground installations, including civilian quarters, at Pearl. You don’t think that would have stirred up the folks back home?

    Finally. If forewarned, why not hit the carrier armada at sea by means of the US carrier force? Again. watch the films. The Japanese armada was sailing under strict and disciplined total radio silence. Yamamoto,a *non-fanatic*, was a military genius. He also made sure that only the top brass in the fleet had the faintest idea what was going on, to give virtually no chance of information leakage. Think. The far more prepared and sophisticated Germans later had no idea exactly where and when the massive D-Day operation would hit them. Unless you knew where it was, and when, the Japanese fleet was a mere pinprick at any point at any time on a vast ocean. Only the luckiest of lucky chance PBY-5 reconnaisance encounters would have given them away, and even then almost certainly too late for interception.

    No. Once the Pearl Armada sailed, war was utterly inevitable and unavoidable, whatever the alternative circumstances. Any military adviser at the time, Japanese, British or US, would have known that.


    hitler wanted to control the world, they tried twice (now its u.s.a), germany was in control of alot of countries at that time SO WHY DID AMERICA WAIT FOR THE ENEVITIBLE TO HAPPEN (WHY WAIT). after america joined the world war the germans lost, is it a coincedence that after that america has alot of world power.

    any country that doesnt accept that america is the daddy will be ravished with war.
    one example
    america controls england and england have the british empire in alot of country’s – australia, south africa etc

    since the world war we have seen america at war in the middle east and vietnam and they won.


    FOOT NOTE 197. Anon

    films are not a way to collect acurate information to base opinions on an event like that, im not saying i disagree with your opinium but america did want to join the war for there own reasons and waited for there own reasons.

  • vincent

    You may be right,but in my opinion, there is also a slight possibility that America would turn to diplomacy and appeasement rather than war because after the wall street crash, also known as the great depression during the 1920s (I might get the dates wrong). During the period after the depression, many European countries along with the USA were severely affected. During this period, many of the countries were still recovering from the depression and war certainly would not help. As I said, the British weren’t willing to take the risk because there was a lot at risk.

    Japan also only wanted control over Asia and the pacific and I do not think they had any desire for war against the USA. The only reason they attacked first was I they felt threatened by a major power that could attack them first, so they chose to strike first. Because tension between japan and the USA wasn’t so high, an agreement can be reached easily (before pearl harbor, that is).

    Further more, even though the USA and the brits were allies, that doesn’t mean one would have to take a bullet for the other. Their alliance wasn’t that strong. After the depression, the USA started to follow a policy of isolationism, which involved not minding European affairs, but focus on themselves, I would say there was a lack of trust between them.

  • Anon


    If Pearl hadn’t happened.

    Sure, things would have been rather different. But my two pennies or two cents says that the US would unavoidably have become drawn in for a whole basket of reasons, and probably quite soon. The main one being the terrible threat total axis victory would have presented (Japan, Germany, Italy and their European satellites were working as a team, don’t forget.) But under any circumstances, the U.S. was still poorly prepared for a war of the kind that could be seen to be going on, and would surely have liked more time both to build up strength and for public opinion to be baying in favour of intervention rather than having to be coaxed there. Provocation was needed, but provocation was provided.

    Whatever you say about the Special Relationship at that time, remember the tremendous help Britain was receiving via lease-lend. In fact it was a totally essential life-line. This posed the Germans a real headache. If they let it through the weaponry was used against them. If they attacked convoys and sank them, they stoked up US public opinion against them even more. *Accidental* sinking of US civilian vessels was even worse.

    Now imagine the US had discovered Britain was manipulating it into war. Do you suppose the British War Cabinet could afford to take the slightest risk of all American aid being instantly cut off, as would surely have happened then? Not to mention the total refusal of America to participate in the war from then on.

    But of course Pearl did happen, and would inevitably have happened, because the decision was purely Japanese. They did decide to attack America for whatever reason, and, as I pointed out, that was bound to result in war due to the size, intention and effects, no matter what those latter had been. American public opinion was as affected and outraged by the unprovoked action against Pearl as it would later be by something that happened in NY city. The two events are indeed often bracketed.

  • DDRM

    It’s a testament to blind US patriotism that so many discount a govt conspiracy as “impossible” for Towers and Pearl Harbor.

    It’s not only possible, It’s factually been thought about and planned in detail by US leaders in the past. Google “Operation Northwood” actual plans released by the CIA to attack US citizens.

    The US government is not pure and good and holy – so why is it impossible to believe they may do unethical things?

    Who would have thought:

    – US Concentration camps.
    – Indefinite imprisonment without trial.
    – World-wide Abduction & rendition.
    – Torture – planned at the top administration level.
    – The Patriot Act, wiretapping, Govt spying on civilians without warrant or due process.
    – Propaganda and declaration of war with Iraq based on WMD’s that they had proof did not exist.
    – US Sponsorship & funding of evil dictatorships in 3rd world countries leading to numerous genocides.(to stop communism)

    If you look at the track record objectively – things that have actually happened (rather than listening to the hyped up 100 repetitions of “freedom” in speeches)

    There’s no ‘holy glow’ around the US govt that makes it impossible that the well funded US agencies, CIA or NSA might follow through on an agenda that would shock the general public.

    “But it couldn’t be kept secret – someone would say something!” People don’t speak out. Especially people who work in the “clandestine” agencies.
    If they thought for a moment anyone working on top secret projects was someone who would ‘speak out’ rather than doing their job and keeping secrets they wouldn’t be working there!

  • Anon


    “- US Concentration camps.”

    I’, not going through the wearisome process of addressing all your points. I’ve spent more than enough time on this topic as it is. I’ll leave that to Randall if he ever comes back and can be bothered either.

    Nor is my agendum making out that the US is some kind of paradise on earth. Who could claim that for any human institution that ever existed, looking at it objectively and with sufficient evidence to consider?

    I’m interested in three aspects:

    One. When someone claims something happened or is even plausible, is that likely, taking into account ALL the evidence available to us people in the street? Pearl Harbour: a US plot against itself? No. Hiroshima and Magasaki: deliberate crimes against mankind? No. The JFK assassination not as it seems? Possible. Weapons of mass destruction known not to exist to the ENTIRE administration? Possible. However, if I were a defence council I’d be 100% happy there isn’t clinching evidence to convict in either of those last two cases.

    The problem is that when conspiracy theory addicts get to work, they go out of their way to toothcomb for every tiny scrap of evidence that supports their view, and ignore or dismiss the great chunks that stand against it. If challenged on that, they merely claim that THEY have dressed history up to fool THE PEOPLE. Well fine. In that case we can turn just about every event where there is a reason for a different outcome into conspiracy. Jesus was a conspiracy. There’s no hard evidence that such a person ever existed. God is a conspiracy by the powerful to manipulate the rest of us by fear of hell or not going to heaven. The Luftwaffe was on the point of knocking the British airforce out in the Battle of Britain but didn’t. Why? Because Hitler wanted it to help him smash Russia and sent Hess over to fix things up. Shall I go on?

    A number of missing Jewish people might make you SUSPECT a holocaust, but you’d need a lot more factual evidence to prove it and be sure.

    Two. The proper use of words, or rather the distorted use of words to make a point. A person who swats a fly has taken the life of a living creature. However, you don’t label him a brutal, vicious murderer. Then think hard before you use terms like *concentration camp* for anything that goes on in the name of America, And think very hard, because you are obscenely, yes OBSCENELY insulting the lives, suffering and death of those who who actually experienced an actual concentration camp. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, I suggest you take the trouble to look at a bit of historial footage of Dachau, Belsen, Treblinka or Buchenwald. If that doesn’t drive you to tears of shame for your manipulative misuse of the word, nothing will.

    3) Context. Which is not the same as justification. The TV series ’24’ is clearly an exaggeration for dramatic entertainment purposes. Or is it, after the Twin Towers? In the fiction agent Bauer knows that a nuclear weapon or some other massive terrorist threat, such as we have already seen and know potentially exists all the time now, is in train. He goes to extreme lengths, totally disregarding all concepts of human rights, in order to stop the atrocity. His brutality might or does involve some innocent *bystanders*. It probably couldn’t be otherwise in real life either. I’m going to propose to you that situation is in progress here and now in a major US city, let’s say where you live, shall we. Your solution? Respect everyone’s human rights to the letter T and have a million or so of your fellow citizens blown away, all those babies and children among them? Or what? You tell me. Don’t pontificate with verbiage. Take terrible and terrifying responsibility before you throw easy paper judgements around.

  • Anon

    And I’m not a blind US patriot either. I’m not American. But I’m still glad that the US is the major world power and not any of the alternatives.

    It’s curious how people who slag off the US and the west never have, and never do, choose to go and live elsewhere. It’s almost always the others who want to move out of their countries. For example, name me the ex-US athletes who are representing Cuba, Russia, Balkan countries, etc., etc.

    Noticed that?


    203. Anon your points are well noted im sure but just to let you know i myself havent slagged of usa just merely stated the facts and never intended to slag them of atall as america is one of the best nations to live in this world currently.

    and yes conspiracy theorists do often missuse evidence as some of the evidence is often falsified itself.

    the thing is though when you see the face of the power its not allways the actual power ie the face of england/america is not the power its the face of the power.

    as for england we have a “brown” face but the power is more than one (bush face, the monarchy) etc

    the illuminati is real to an extent but what is that extent and when was it concieved.

    it would seem that it could have been in effect for many many many many years but how was it used when hitler was alive


  • Drogo

    Does anyone (ever) get the feeling that, in certain ways, the United States seems to be becoming, or has become, the new “Soviet Union”? :(

  • DDRM

    203. Anon “Don’t pontificate with verbiage. Take terrible and terrifying responsibility before you throw easy paper judgements around.”

    ahh sweet irony :) Have you seen the number, length and tone of your comments?

    Please note: I refer to, lets say the “ethical character” of the current US administration as displayed by their reported actions. I don’t believe this reflects in anyway the US public or culture, who as a rule are very nice, ethical, generous and giving – probably the heart of most charity organizations around the world.
    As a country the US has also been a support and aid all around the world.

    However the actions of the current government are reasonably transparent (except on FOX news).

    6 of the 7 examples i suggested, are all instituted by the US government after, and are justified by, the attack on 9/11.

    Likewise, your argument that Jack Buaer can kill / maim / hurt who ever it takes to prevent millions dying, stems from one proposition – we have to prevent another 9/11

    If 9/11 didn’t actually happen by terrorists?
    Lets say – just like the burning of the reichstag didnt happen by the Jews (Hitler just said it did).

    Then that makes all the torturing, and loss of freedoms, general fear for now nearly 7 years… kinda pointless.

    Yes conspiracy theorists go too far. But likewise, we shouldn’t believe everything we’re told. Govt’s can and do lie (e.g. “we know there are WMDs” etc). Govt’s can and do sacrifice thousands for a world changing agenda.

    We shouldn’t just look at evidence. We should look at what evidence is missing leaving a hole. We should look at what evidence that seems out of place but tells a story that suits a particular suspect. We should look at motive. We should look for previous planning ‘pre-mediatation’.

    But ultimately – my point with the previous comment was: We should not discount a suspect purely because we emotionally do not feel they are capable of doing bad things.

  • DDRM

    On a side note: it really doesn’t matter either way :)

    Debating conspiracies is about as useful as arguing who is stronger out of Spiderman or Batman

    Conspiracy or not:
    If the US hadn’t entered the war after pearl harbor, the pacific would be screwed, Germany may have got the A-bomb and we’d all be toast.
    Would JFK’s continued presidency be better or worse? for who? Was the moon landing a hoax? doesn’t matter, it diverted Russia and weakened their economic focus.
    Was the Philadelphia experiment covered up? doesn’t matter, even if it was, rumor says all the sailors went insane and died so it wasn’t very successful

  • Anon

    DDRM, (208),

    Tell us what you think?

    O.K. I’ll overlook your extremely hurtful and uncalled for remark at the beginning of (207). I lay awake all night worrying about it. (followed by smiley thingie, which I don’t know how to do).
    (Bloody liar, Anon, he’s only just posted.)

    Then I went to other posts and read all those oh so kind remarks about my syntax. Hey, watch it, sailor.

    Beautiful aside though. Agreed word for word. Couldn’t have phrased it better meself. A lot, lot longer, yes, but not better.

    As a Brit, I have also to add (going in the other direction) that had Diana lived, the British public would still have gone on hating Charles, and Saint Diana would still have been Saint Diana. Now for the differences meanwhile. Undoubtedly a popular uprising to overthrow the sitting Windsor monarchy (now exiled in Zimababwe as esteemed guests of His Excellecy The Right Honourable Buggamee.) Instead Pharaoh Al Fayed I and his heir apparent, glamorous Prince Dodi, would be installed as the new dynasty.

    Footnote: If there was no Global Warming’? Who Al Gore?
    Nothing for poor old Dubya to deny and ignore.

  • Anon


    “If 9/11 didn’t actually happen by terrorists?
    Lets say – just like the burning of the reichstag didnt happen by the Jews (Hitler just said it did).”

    Just to complete and fill out the story of 9/11. The third aircraft that hit the Pentagon was carefully aimed to damage but not destroy the US centre of operations, so as to outrage and justfy further? Superb bit of precision kamikaze flying! And a group of ultra-patriotic CIA suicide agent plants brought down the fourth that was SAID to be aimed at the White House, although it never was, of course. Nice one. A lot better than the rather tame Reichtag plot.

  • Oohdeooh

    Crimanon….you’re a pretentious little douche! Nobody cares about your “better perspective than others” your age or your “commentary on life”! Nobody cares what you do in your free time or what your favourite saying is! Get up off your ass walk away from the computer and go out and find yourself a life! PEACE

  • Levyathan_0

    We the devils aim to please are conspiracies ever kept in the bossom of are loving mother,

  • Drogo

    DDRM’s comment about how the ethical character of the current US administration does not reflect in anyway the US public or culture relates to what I meant by comparing the U.S to the former USSR (slightly sarcastic). It’s a corrupt, unethical superpower, that seems to be in operation for itself and not in the interest of the people, and is considered a bully by other nations.

  • Mike

    We and the people that have gone before us have allowed conspiracies to take root and become what they are.

    It all depends on what you as individuals and collectively focus your energy on and “allow” into your reality.

    It is all down to “you”, only “you”.

  • Reub

    On the subject of the HIV theories, read the book “The River”, or watch the documentary “The Origin Of Aids” on google video, it is the most realistic and well researched theory on the outbreak of this terrible disease and it has nothing to do with eating or raping monkeys, but rather the production of polio vacinne in research monkeys in Africa, as stated above the people of Africa were used as guinea pigs by competing scientist vying to produce the first oral vacinne.
    The way they made the vacinne was using monkey kidneys to grow the culture required, this is how the SIV virus “jumped” species, although I should point out there was seemingly nothing sinister planned by the scientists involved.

  • Oohdeooh: Holier than Thou? Or just an Ebaumsworld drop out?

  • Oohdeooh

    crimanon lets not get into “holier than thou” status. Personally i’m a regular down to earth guy that stumbled across this page looking into a subject i was interested in. You on the other hand have consistently gone out of your way over the last year to push your views on anybody you disagree with and also, in a very sad way, tried to make yourself out as someone special..someone who is better than the rest of us, as if you were to hold a higher understanding on the subject. That, lil bitch, is being holier than thou.

  • Oohdeooh:

    One, I’m no one special. I’ve never stated anything to to the contrary.

    Two, Whatever your beliefs are, you can have them. I push No propaganda, have no agenda, and unless I have a solid argument to come back with, I stay out of it.

    Three, If you find me so pretentious why have you waited so long to speak up? Surely many of my other comments would have offended you. My guess is that you know nothing about how I think and have never actually debated with me on Any topic, save this, which is very off topic.

    Four, And I don’t think I say this enough… Get bent. Your first attempt at conversing with me has only left me wanting a beer. Not even a good beer. If you’re trying to fray my nerves you failed.

    Unless you have a good question about Conspiracy theories and/or would like to share your own, then stop critiquing. I don’t have the patience for people like you.

  • Anon


    I’ll speak for you. We ourselves had a misunderstanding a while back. Neither of us blew fuses. We exchanged the odd good-natured piss-take. You didn’t try to come the old acid on me, nor I vice versa. We walked out of it on good terms.

    Care to share that beer with me (in which case make it a good one)?

  • Can’t remember what it was, so it must not have been that intense. Consider it shared, Dragons Milk ok?

  • Anon

    Could it have been to do with back-to-front hats? One of my EXCEEDINGLY RARE disagreements was with with somone was over that vital issue. Who cares? Who knows who wears what here. I might be typing in the nude now for all anyone knows. God, what a frighful thought, since the fact that I’m an ugly old male (to all except Anita) must be glaringly obvious from my postings.

    Sounds great. Cheers.

  • Can I interest you in a Madone 4.7?

  • Oohdeooh

    If you don’t have the patience for people like me, then why do you keep replying? If you didn’t care, surely you would not afford the effort of writing out that drivile…..the reason why you reply is because you have no life and constantly check the updated comments on this page because it excites you to have these debates with strangers because, lets face it, you don’t really have any friends, yes you do “know” people, perhaps the people you work with, your neihbours and who can forget the 14 year old girl you secretly have a crush on that that you follow around everyday, but they’re not friends because the plain honest truth is… nobody likes you, not even your parents, your a failure to them and to society, your father is actually embarrased to call you his son..why, oh why couldn’t he have a real son, a real man that played football and not dungeons & dragons, and its all your fault he is so sad, i hope your proud of yourself, god knows he isn’t……anyway i’m bored of you now so i won’t be writing back….good day sir

  • Anon

    Oh, come now, squire, I like him, he shares good beer with me. That’s why I check the updated comments (as you do). Look. First a Dragons Milk, then a Madone 4.7. He’d offer you a round if only you smiled nicely at him instead of accusing him of writing dry vile.

    And please do keep writing back. Good laughs are hard to come by these days.

  • Pingback: well… |

  • Lauren

    mix2323 – August 21st, 2007 at 5:31 pm
    i think UFOs are a product of are govt and area 51 is a place where they do illegal cloning and gene splicing why else would they keep it a secret and aliens are a cover up for what they are doing

    (scientists test gene splicing and cloning everyday, it’s not illigal – it’s just not in the media very often).

  • Lauren

    PS this site is very well done!

  • Rob Cadman

    The US govt did indeed have warnings about Pearl Harbour of the British however they were apparently unwilling to enter the war as the administration thought the Brits were trying to draw the US into war with germany whihc at the time the Brits were loosing. The British knew of this attack as they had the german enigma machine and code book and so had full knowledge of several german plans. The British Govt actually allowed one city to be bombed ‘by surprise’ so as to conceal the fact they had cracked the enigma

  • Anon

    Rob Cadman, (227),

    “The US govt did indeed have warnings about Pearl Harbour of the British however they were apparently unwilling to enter the war as the administration thought the Brits were trying to draw the US into war with germany whihc at the time the Brits were loosing. The British knew of this attack as they had the german enigma machine and code book and so had full knowledge of several german plans.”

    I’d be interested to learn of your source for this assertion. The general view is that the Japanese high command was so paranoically concerned about keeping the Pearl Harbour attack a secret that no one knew except the minimum of their own executives who had to have the information for operational reasons.

    There seems to be another logical reason against the Pearl Harbour conspiracy theory which has been overlooked here. By that stage of WW2 I believe it was already evident to the major powers with scientists involved in atomic theory that such a bomb was not only practicable, but that a race for it was almost certainly on by their enemy or potential enemy as well. Those who *knew* would at least have included Britain, Germany and the U.S.A. That knowledge, and the devastating advantage the first to the post would gain must have been clear as daylight to those advising governments. Is it then likely that the U.S. would have *allowed* a crippling blow to its major fleet facing the Japanese war machine, which would have gifted the axis powers (via Germany) a time lead in that terrible race?

    Apropos. In fact the British were not losing against the Germans in December 1941. The Battle of Britain was already won. The blitz had been weathered. Hitler’s Operation Sealion invasion plan had failed. The desert war was going against the axis powers. Malta was holding. Gibraltar was firm. The entire British Empire was still intact. The pressure had been turned off Britain and onto Soviet Russia, which was consuming a major portion of the German war effort. In the month of Pearl Harbour the Red Army went over to the offensive. In March 1941, British 4-engined strategic bombers began the long and continuous offensive against the German industrial heartland. Although it would be another year and a half before the U-boats were bettered, all the deadly German surface raiders had already been sunk or coralled in port. Britain losing the war in December 1941? “Give over, lad,” as any Yorkshireman would say to you.

  • bun

    How many “super powers” is there you think? I mean lets face it, the countries America is attacking/ivanding/helping are all around Russia e.g Kosova/Georgia/Iraq and many more that America is helping without anyone knowing. If you think its about oil…THINK AGAIN! They are just trapping Russia so that they cant grow any more powerfull and its working, since the break of the USSR the econemy of Russia has hit rock bottom. You will see that 1 day Russia will be stripped of its powers and attacked…when will that day be no one knows.

  • Gozer

    Its all about power. The Us made the 9/11 to finish afghanistan gas tube and to access the oil in IRAQ.
    I’m afraid of US make something like it in my country (BRASIL), because we discovered more oil on sub sea.

  • WTC 7

    gee… funy how many of those who don’t believe in conspiracy theories got wound up with the subject here!!! and how much time they waste, go into great lengths, to prove their point of view on something that they think is pure crap… I guess they get a good thrill out of it, or what?

    I particularly like the one from Anon (although he seems not to be the only one who gets a hard on showing how smart they are): “The problem is that when conspiracy theory addicts get to work, they go out of their way to toothcomb for every tiny scrap of evidence that supports their view, and ignore or dismiss the great chunks that stand against it.” Wow! An anti-conspiracy theory addict goes around telling others not to do exactly what he himself is doing the other way around :-).

    Lol :-)))

  • The_Anarchist

    My opinion on 9/11 agrees witht he theroy that it was not only allowed but planned by our loyal Goverment officals. My personal reason for beliving this, power. He who controls the stock market has money, and he who has money as everything. It’s along the same belifs as a one world economy, if you own the economy you own the world. But this is just my opinion, in reality it counts for very very little.

    Would the theroy that ‘the goverment can control the weather’ fit into the top 10, I never belived that one though I was just questioning.

  • WTC 7

    On a more serious note (compared to my previous post) how much does it take for one to see that what the mainstream media and the US officials are telling us about the 9/11 doesn’t withstand simple reasoning.

    With intelligence warnings from agencies around the world prior to the tragic event, the Bush administration nonchalantly turned the blind eye and did nothing to prevent it. Not to mention that it is hard to believe that its own intelligence agencies didn’t have a slightest hint of what’s to happen – please!!! And then its top officials claimed there were no warnings about it?! Are ye kidding me? And now they are chasing OBL ’round the world for 7 years and can’t catch him?

    If the lack of appropriate initial response is to be ascribed to the incompetence of the administration and the respective US agencies, then how these suddenly became so efficient and within hours after the attack they knew the names of 19 perpetrators, immediately figured out OBL was behind it and, certainly, they knew he was hiding in Afghanistan? (And, miraculously, ready there is a detailed plan to attack Afghanistan and remove the Talibans. Now, really, one has to admire such efficiency.)

    But, alas, OBL, the number 1 enemy of the state, terrorist and devil who caused the deaths of thousands of civilians on American soil, continues to elude the mighty hand of the United States of America (and its allies), its sophisticated technology and world’s best trained men. And despite Mr Bush Junior’s promise that catching him was to be the priority task for the US. And despite the fact that the US was on OBL’s tail since the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania in ’98. On top of everything, there are the “friendly”-business relations btw the Bush and OBL families. Something is fishy there, isn’t it?

    Go to the FBI web-site and look what OBL is wanted for. The last time I checked (a week ago), he was hunted for the bombings of the US embassies in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam in 1998, and a number of other terrorist deeds around the globe (no mention of anything specific). Period! Now, ain’t that a bit strange? The US attacked Afghanistan because the Taliban were harbouring OBL (and his affiliates), based on clear evidence, it was claimed, that he was behind the 9/11 tragedy. (FBI must not be updating their data on a regular basis, it seems. Or is OBL not important any more? But I thought Bush Junior was to hunt him until he was caught?)

    I’d say there are enough elements for doubting the official story (if not for a good old conspiracy theory :-)).

    Besides, who could trust the bunch who blatantly lied to the world about the WMD’s in Iraq? And then – ooops! sorry, that was wrong, but still! the guy was a dictator and he deserved to be removed. Not to mention that he was sitting on one of the richest oil field in the world and was controling it. Now the Iraqis are happily living in the ocean of their own blood, in the sectarian feuds unleashed by the irresponsible US policy. Such policy is unacceptable if you are claiming the leadership of the democratic, free world. To be accepted as a true leader, one must have a deep sense of responsibility. I certainly can’t believe the “liberation of Iraq’s people” story. And, for goodness sake, just hear or read any of Bush Junior’s speeches!!! Was he taught by the communist orators, or what?

  • WTC 7

    jfrater: do U think this topic is dead? Or have I simply joined too late? Pity! Well, I guess it’s time to move on. Cheers, it was a pleasure :-)

  • Anon

    WTC 7, (231),

    ” … ignore or dismiss the great chunks that stand against it.” Wow! An anti-conspiracy theory addict goes around telling others not to do exactly what he himself is doing the other way around”

    Since that’s a personal accusation against my methodology, let’s have a few cited examples, please. From my own posts above.

    As for attacking what is seen as false. Why bother to say the earth is round when others say it’s flat? Why bother to to promote evolution when people believe creationism?
    Why bother to deny racists who say black people are less intelligent than monkeys? Why bother?

    I suppose you’re perfectly happy to not to object to those who say the Holocaust didn’t happen, it’s just a conspiracy. You don’t find that an obscene insult against the truth and the suffering of the multitudes who were gassed, eh?

    I’ll leave Randall to answer your *more serious note* if he will. I’m neither an American or expert on 9/11.

    However, I will point out that any previous rebuttal of mine would have been based on circumstantial evidence to the contrary. What else is there? I understand you be to saying that Bush knew flying bombs* were aimed at the Pentagon and the White House (or Capitol?), inter alia. Presumably the secret service must have been that sure of everything in advance. There could not have been the slightest chance of uncertainty (i.e. not knowing the methods, the timing, the targets), since uncertainty could have overlooked the possibility of the use of one or more nuclear devices against the U.S. mainland as part of the attack. I trust even you wouldn’t credit even the vile Dubya with that sort of reckless cynicism against his own country!

  • Anon

    And are you tacitly accusing ME of defending Dubya? Wow, it’ll be Anon the Hitler and Stalin apologist next!!!!

  • Anon

    WTC 7,

    And do you agree with post 232 above, a fellow 9/11 conspiracy supporter? If not, perhaps you’d care to explain why. Or is it more important to stamp on anti-conspiracy theoreticians?????

    And as a footnote to your personal focus on me. If you look carefully at both conspiracy lists, you’ll observe that I have ignored most of the theories (too stupid, not interested, don’nt know anything about them and don’t care), and have actually supported the one on JFK as very feasible. So put that in you pipe and smoke it!

  • WTC 7


    And I was already loosing my faith! Glad you responded (kind of)!

    Let’s see…

    Ok, let us start with this – I really don’t understand your accusations about my denying the Holocaust, I never mentioned anything in that regard. I guess you believe that all “conspiracy theorists” are anti-semitic by default?! And non-Jewish?! That would be your first mistake. By the way, I’m Jewish (not practicing the faith though, but I hope it doesn’t bother you) and I KNOW about the Holocaust, believe me! So, why don’t we just leave that topic behind?

    On a similar note, I’m not an American either (and if Randall wants to answer, fine, but why the heck do you need Randall to come to your rescue ?? And for what? Because I quoted you in my post????). (BY THE WAY – your sentence: “I’m neither an American or expert on 9/11” should properly go: “I’m neither an America NOR expert on 9/11” – thus, you are not native British either). In the end, it doesn’t really matter what I am and where I come from, it’s what I believe in that counts. Being an American or not, black or white (while living in Kenya I got some good black, and white, friends), Jewish or non-Jewish…. why do you even pose these questions? Why are you so preoccupied with this issue? You have some internal problem with it??? It’s the TOPIC I was discussing for goodness sake! The 9/11! Not the Holocaust, not the blacks and monkeys (never even heard of this comparison, by the way)…

    As for the earth’s shape – it was the Catholic Church/ the mainstream opinion (WHICH YOU REPRESENT IN THIS CASE!) that said the Earth was flat! It was the HERETIC view, the one not accepted by the mainstream, that the Earth was round (THE ONE I REPRESENT IN THIS CASE!!! – the right one :-)). I was hoping for more of a challenge from you, this is pretty much ridiculous, having to explain things of this sort.

    You defending Dubya? Your imagination is incredible! Neither tacitly nor openly have I accused you of defending him (no one serious would defend him :-)). But I’m wondering about your ego, if you REALLY think that, when I spoke about him, I actually referred to something you said! Trust me, Bush Junior is a topic on its own altogether…. and a funny one for that matter… but that’s unrelated here.

    I’ve quoted you at some stage – the point in that being that ANYONE can use your argument that the arguments of the “other” side are potentially subjective. Well, if you find yourself insulted, I apologize :-). Don’t know why, but I do….

    Now….. after having said all of the above (in my defense :-)), there is not a single substantial argument from your part that I should consider seriously on the topic, apart from WOULD-THEY/HE- DO-THAT-TO-THEIR/HIS- OWN-COUNTRY? and WHO-WOULD-BELIEVE-THAT-CRAP? one. That sort of argument is truly amusing :-)… and, at the same time, not worth considering…

    And finally, I don’t smoke a pipe, I smoke cigarets (forbidden in your blessed countries – I mean, yours and Randall’s :-)).

    Hope to hear from Randall soon, ’cause you didn’t give me the challenge I expected :-))). Hope Randall will :-)


  • WTC 7


    Sorry, I forgot about the 232… What can I say, the post is pretty much “weak” for a person who is trying to put an opinion forward… As for the weather control….. I don’t think I’m that much into the conspiracy stuff :-)

    PS Another conspiracy theory – jfrater is keeping this debate alive….???

  • WTC 7


    One thing more. On the day of the 9/11 the US military jet plains were having an exercise on potential attack on the US by aircraft – that is why the flight control (and the jet pilots) were confused about what was real and what was not. Try to find out about that, if you are so open-minded :-)

  • Anon

    WTC 7,

    OK. One by one.

    The Holocaust was simply an example. You were mocking me in your “funy how many of those who don’t believe in conspiracy theories got wound up with the subject here!!!” Since the Holocaust is stated by some (including the goverment of Iran) to be a conspiracy to generate sympathy for Jews and Israel, I cited it as something that any right-minded person would surely want to defend as an historical fact. That was not *accusing* you of believing the Holocaust (or indeed necessarily anything else) to be a conspiracy. Your race or nationality is immaterial unless it enters and biases your opinions, or unless you declare it for a good, relevant reason, as here, and as I did in connection with 9/11. Since I hope I’m not given to sweeping statements without basis of evidence, why on earth should I say or believe all thos who believe in conspiracies are anti-semetic? I might as well say all Germans are anti-semitic because of the nazis!

    Your perfectly precise correction of my grammar shows you up as a small-minded pedant. I dare say you may well be typing as fast as you can without due care and thought, and with numerous interruptions as well as trying to get a day’s work done at the same time. So I will overlook your *funy* for *funny* as a typo, not some fundamental clue as to your origin. Based on that evidence, I doubt we have more one or two native speakers in the whole of LV. Grow up.

    And will you stop misquoting me so insolently, you cheeky bugger. I did not say or even imply I wanted Randall either to reply Nor rescue me. Put your spectacles on and read what I said, “I’ll leave Randall to answer your *more serious note* if he will.” Since when is that *rescuing*? Stop nit-picking minor errors of syntax and start concentrating on the sense and intention of the comments. I explained by my next comment why I was not qualified to deal with the subject in detail. I imagine you would react the same way if someone asked you to describe the tribal customs and languages of West Irian. Or are you a melanesian anthropolgist? Randall happens to be a history tutor by profession, and a close follower of American politics.

    “It’s the TOPIC I was discussing for goodness sake!”
    “gee… funy how many of those who don’t believe in conspiracy theories got wound up with the subject here!!! and how much time they waste, go into great lengths, to prove their point of view on something that they think is pure crap… I guess they get a good thrill out of it, or what?”

    Your words, your topic, my answer, my friend. Just go back and read your own post before you accuse me of going off topic. I’ll finish here, but am not wasting any more time with you. You prefer argument to logic and consequence. Well, go find someone else with time to waste. I doubt Randall will want much truck with anyone of your calibre. A quick, contemptuous dismissal would be my guess.

    “As for the earth’s shape – it was the Catholic Church/ the mainstream opinion (WHICH YOU REPRESENT IN THIS CASE!) that said the Earth was flat! It was the HERETIC view, the one not accepted by the mainstream, that the Earth was round (THE ONE I REPRESENT IN THIS CASE!!! – the right one :-)). I was hoping for more of a challenge from you, this is pretty much ridiculous, having to explain things of this sort.”

    That isn’t even cant, its codswallop. Grow up again. You know damn well I was using that merely to illustrate that one does not let a falsehood pass unchallenged simply because it might seem ridiculous or wrong. It was in reply to your: “go into great lengths, to prove their point of view on something that they think is pure crap…” as I should have thought was obvious enough.

    “You defending Dubya? Your imagination is incredible! Neither tacitly nor openly have I accused you of defending him (no one serious would defend him :-)).”

    On the contrary, you have, implicitly. I am indeed defending him against accusations that he (and his administration) either planned or allowed 9/11 to happen. That my friend is defence. It is what a good lawyer does for a nasty criminal he nevertheless supposes (note supposes, not knows) to be innocent of a specific charge. Once again, if you read my posts elsewhere in LV, you’ll find me savaging Dubya along with the best on numerous occasions, and not least over WMD.

    You seem to be obssessed with my ego. Does that perhaps tell me something about you? “… who gets a hard on showing how smart they are”. And that?

    “I’ve quoted you at some stage – the point in that being that ANYONE can use your argument that the arguments of the “other” side are potentially subjective. Well, if you find yourself insulted, I apologize :-). Don’t know why, but I do….”

    (Sigh) We’ve just been through all that objective, subjective, balanced view, taking both sides of the argument crap tirelessly and endlessly over at another topic. Enough is enough.

    You did not answer my point the very contemporary threat of nuclear terrorism, nor (or *or*!) my question about post 232.

    Seems like you’ve had enough of me as I have of you. Mutual distaste. Enjoy Randall if he comes with his hard on, he has a lively line in personal insults.

    Hasta la vista, baby.

  • WTC 7


    That was a lovely reply! I truly enjoyed it!!! You said a lot for someone who didn’t want to waste any more of his time with me. Oh, I simply adore this kind of reaction – helpless and powerless! THANK YOU ANON!

    Not much more to discuss with you, unless you are an expert in IR (which you obviously are not, nor in anything else for that matter it would appear :-)))). Don’t even know why you bother participating in discussions (of any kind, just read some of your comments elsewhere – equally sad).

    Greetings from Serbia! Say hello to Bush Junior for me, please. But I doubt even he would want his innocence to be defended by you. Greetings to Randall the Great too. Hope he’s less pathetic than you are.

    My spelling is still better than yours, pal, although English is only my third language. I enjoyed yanking your chain! xxx

  • Anon


    That explains Serbia then.

  • Anon

    Poor Serbia.

  • WTC 7

    My sympathies to UK too :-). Still, if it wasn’t for U it wouldn’t have been that fun, sweetheart

  • Anon

    WTC 7,

    If you’re reading, and in the hope that your vain euphoria of self-congratulation may have cooled off a tad, I’ve decided to return with a serious footnote.

    It occurred to me that you appear to be wasting a considerable talent that I, and I guess most people on LV would give a great deal to own. I’m not saying that sarcastically, facetiously or patronisingly. I mean it genuinely. With admiration.

    I happen to be a happily married man with two lovely and loving daughters. I’ve led a full and interesting life. I have many friends, including one or two recently discovered here on LV whom I value highly. There are no major problems in my life, just a few minor worries. So you have completely wasted your time and and enough of mine to make me somewhat contemptuous of your show-off schoolboy silliness, nothing more. If your attempt was to humiliate me or make me feel insecure, sorry …

    You tell me my English syntax is poor, my spelling bad, and you are better at both despite English only being your third language and you being Serbian. Well, that’s quite a proud boast to make to someone who regularly publishes scientific papers and articles, and occasionally contributes major sections to standard reference books.

    I’m perfecty prepared to accept anyone in any topic here claiming to be more expert than I am. Several know English language procedure in far greater depth than I do. Witness a recent LV topic. I do happen to be a recognized world expert on one tiny, unimportant subject (which I’m certainly not telling here). That’s all.

    Nevertheless, if you are who you say you are, and English indeed is your third language, then you obviously have a terrific talent. For that I’m spending a few more minutes typing this. Use that talent properly. Don’t piss about here trying to impress by how naturally you can direct insulting modern colloquialisms at unknown random *victims*. If flaunting those is important to you, try incorporating them into some kind of fiction or film script.

    When I say grow up, this time I intend it in a very real sense. Allow yourself to become mature and wise. Don’t squander a valuable natural gift and waste your time on this crap. If you think the world is reading and laughing with you, it isn’t. My guess: anybody still looking in here is more likely laughing at your collosal conceit.

    That really is finis.

  • Anon

    Check: colossal.

  • WTC 7


    I certainly cooled down and, honestly, I am glad you wrote again. My appologies for not writing sooner.

    First I wish to say that everything I said is true – I am Serbian, English is my third language (the first being Serbian and the second Greek). Besides, I am 40, happily married (to a man who, by the way doesn’t believe the US gov’t was involved in the 9/11 event and with whom I often have discussions on the subject).

    In all sincerity, I was upset that our “correspondence” took a wrong direction, for which I take half of the blame. I say half, because, while hoping that my second post would trigger some serious counter-arguments on the concrete topic I was discussing, I was accused of denying the Holocaust(whereas, I really am Jewish, as is my husband) and of some other pretty ugly things, such as racism, which I truly despise. I thought such accusations were totally unprovoked, given that I never implied any of it in anything I said, and I truly got very upset. That, and the fact that you exclusively focused on my citing you (which was nothing personal in the first place, I simply found it was an argument that could be used both ways) and based your opinion about me on that solely, gave me an impression that you were in for exchange of insults.

    Having said all of the above, I do appologize for getting out of line and letting out (you are absolutely right) the childish part of me, which, for better or worse, I never fully grew out of. If that counts at all at this point, be sure that I am sorry for allowing it to kick in and get out of control. Therefore, I accept gladly your “peace offer” (or at least that’s how I understood it) and I thank you for providing me with an opportunity to, hopefully, redeem myself.

    In the end, I only wish to say that I care not whether others approve, or disapprove for that matter, what I say or write – I believe in myself to much for that to be the case. My appologizing to you, here, publicly, may convince you that I mean it. I have no problem whatsoever admitting being wrong (but in this instance I do it only as to my inappropriate personal comments, not as to my conviction about official cover-up of what happened on September 11).

    So, hopefully, that settles it.

  • Paulo

    Hey everyone, i didn’t really have time to read the above posts to be honest, but im going to go over a few of my own theories on the matter.

    The American Government must have allowed the 9/11 attacks to proceed as i refuse to believe that a government with worldwide links, and an intelligence agency of the scale that exists in America did not know that Osama Bin Laden had authorised such a terrorist attack to take place.

    On that note, it can be easily and succesfully argued that America actually commited these atrocities on its own citizens so as to remain a superpower. Oil is running out, and whoever controls the oil in the future controls the world as far as im concerned. I do not have anything against Arabs, Muslims or anyother race or religion, but i do not believe America would sit back and allow the control of oil to slip away from themselves easily. That is why over 3000 lives of people from all races can be considered expendable.

    Look at the facts, Osama bin laden is not on the fbi most wanted list for the 9/11 attacks, if i was in charge of the fbi id be changing it. What that proves is that they do not have a single shred of proof that he authorised the attacks.

    Al qaeda actually stated that if america could prove that they had anything to do with the attacks they would have no qualms about handing over their holy leader! they did not hand him over as no proof was given.

    there is such a thing as a remote controled boeing 747.

    finally, the Americans seem to be good at denying the whole truth and nothing but the truth. they still do not admit to having a secret military training base in the nevada desert, even though we’ve all seen the pictures!!!!!

  • Matt Howard

    Hey Paulo,

    I for one, do not believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy. A few of your claims are based on the concept that a lack of explanation equals proof of conspiracy.

    Yes, America has worldwide links, intelligence etc etc. So does Britain, and look at what happened in London. So does Spain, and look what happened in Madrid. So does Australia, and look what happened in Bali. You have to take into account the administration and their policies at the time of the attacks. If they have all these massive resources of intelligence at their disposal, but they are not particularly concerned with using them efficiently, then their power is greatly diminished.

    Yes, planes can be remote controlled. People can’t. What happened to all those people who died on the planes? Did they not have family? Did they not have friends? Did they not have acquaintances? Did they not have workmates? Are they totally made up of the the U.S government murder them? If they didn’t exist, what of the phone calls that were made from the planes? If they did exist, how did the government keep the murder of these people totally secret?

    There are too many logical contradictions to even consider the notion that the U.S government was behind 9/11. The more crucial question to be asking is how the hell did they let this attack happen?

  • Anon

    WTC 7,

    Thanks for your measured reply. I’m sorry if I built a completely erroneous image of you from our *contretemps* and set out my last response accordingly. (I’d have been interested in how you perceived me!) I can only add to what you have put that your attacks on my spelling and syntax were not a good idea, and had no bearing on the subject. They came over as ad hominem, and that fired me up. I tried not to be personal, other than in mininal self-defence. If I failed at any points, my apologies.

    Secondly, please accept that I would NEVER EVER accuse you or anybody else of not believing the Holocaust existed, or of racism or any other extreme examples I may have offered. Unless, of course, that was explicity expressed in someone’s view, or totally implicit. It was precisely BECAUSE I assumed you would NOT subscribe to those that I put them up as parallel supports for my argument. If that failed to come across due to any fault of my exposition, again my apologies. As I pointed out at the time in all honesty, I was more or less typing off-the-cuff under considerable pressure of time, and still am. (My wife is pressing for the compu right now, so I’ll post this as it stands, unchecked, and read yours with more care and continure if necessary!!!)

  • Anon

    And Matt, (250), not to mention Paulo and others of his convictions,

    As I have pointed out (inter alia), we also now have the ever-present possibility of a nuclear terrorist device being involved sooner or later.

    So what government would *allow* any attack to happen under those circumstances? How could any security forces *know* for absolute certainty that such a device had not been smuggled in when one considers the impossibility of controlling, say massice illegal drug smuggling? That sort of broad contextual consideration is exactly what gets ignored (or at least not answered) in these conspiracy debates.

    The same applies to the US deliberately allowing itself to be seriously weakened at Pearly Harbour. Where, incidentally, nuclear weaponry was probably already envisaged as a likely worst case endgame to WW2, even in the European theatre (by either side or both).

  • Anon

    Hey, WTC 7,

    Just look at my spelling going haywire today!!!!!

  • WTC 7

    Hi Anon!

    Really glad to see we overcame the initial unfounded dislike of each other! Actually, your spelling seems to have improved to a great extent lately :-))) (it never was bad, by the way, it was just my bloody temper, sooory, but don’t you be too harsh about mine now :-)).

    Got to go now, but will be back tomorrow with my point of view on some of the issues mentioned above…. Cheers and have a lovely evening!

  • Anon


    The other objection, again as I keep pointing out, is *over-egging the cake*.

    Governments may indeed need and manufacture a casus belli (e.g. the Reichstag, WMD). But equally important is to be seen to be in control in the eyes of the citizenry, especially if it happens to be a democratically voting citizenry. Both Pearl Harbour and 9/11 were clear cases of US governments seen to be caught completely napping with their draws around their ankles. They then remained at least temporarily humiliated and disadvantaged (P.H.), or are still without the perpetrator’s head (9/11).

    Let’s suppose we are Roosevelt and Bush and have foreknowledge, but need a casus belli. What would we do?

    Roosevelt: O.K., maybe allow the Japanese armada to come at us. But at least evacuate our capital vessels *on manoevres* along with the carrier force. Make sure the radar was not only functioning, but that it was BELIEVED. If possible, also *arrange* that our Pearl air defences were at least at some stage of readiness on some pretext or other. Another good idea would be to have the absent carrier force at least within battle range, so its carrier planes could join in the fray. What would that leave? The same treacherous attack by Japan, all that was needed to stir up an already agitated public opinion. There would still have been enough damage to US installations and loss of life to cause an outcry. But much less, besides which the Japanese force would itself have been licking much greater and perhaps more significant wounds. Both the short-term and long-term benefits to the US of such an alternative would have been glaringly obvious.

    As a footnote to Pearl. Supposing it had been allowed to happen. Supposing then a Japanese long-range aerial reconnaisance unit had chanced to spot the US carrier force, and directed the attacking force onto that as well? Perfectly feasible.

    Now 9/11. Why allow a multiple (it should have been one more) catastrophe? Is the US population so insensitive it wouldn’t have reacted with outrage and demands for revenge after just one? More over-egging the cake. You’re Dubya and his administration and you’re evil. You know what is planned down to the last detail. So let just one happen. Which? Presumably the first TT. Arrange for the other planes to be grounded with minor mechanical problems or some other excuse, or at least to have their flight cabins secured against any possible entry, and for a forewarned agent or two on board as *off duty* police, or some other pretext. Once the first *hit* is scored, you could also justifiably ground or order immediate landing of all other internal flights, which I think would have saved Fight 93. And so on.

    Footnote: So the valiant sacrificial heroes and heroines of Flight 93 actually messed up their own government’s plans then, by not allowing themselves to kamikaze on a major Washington target? Is that what we’re hearing?

  • Randall


    You point out, here, the very glaring error in the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories (and 9/11 conspiracy theory) that I always mention–namely, that a Japanese VICTORY was not necessary at Pearl Harbor–simply a Japanese ATTACK. A failed attack would have been far better and made much more sense than a successful attack, i.e., a victory—which is what Pearl Harbor in fact was–except, of course, in the long term, and in regards to certain details.

    In fact, the idea of allowing a Japanese victory at Pearl Harbor would have made NO SENSE AT ALL, and yet we still hear conspiracy idiots touting their silly notions about this.

  • m0nk3yhum0r

    The Freemasons had nothing to do with #5 or #6 okay dont judge a society or people without looking into their philosophy and belief (FYI freemasonry isn’t a religion) i hope you dont think and or beleive these things are true. I mean most of these guys who come up with this stuff are potheads like, “Hey man lets blame the bermuda triangle stuff on some intellectually (big word for potheads)advanced sponges like spongebob.” other pothead, “Yeah man! dudes are like so stupid they’d believe anything, awsome!” Just an example.
    #1 Footage of 9\11 shows an explosion inside the building before the first plane hit. Although this doesn’t indicate government involvement, it does indicate an inside job.
    #2 No.6 comment goes well with this. The government works on high maintenance, high cost, and highly confendential projects such as the “aurora” (which isn’t so confendential any more) and many other planes, aircraft, and vehicals which haven’t been disclosed with the public. UFOs are objects of sound, centrifigul, and many other laws of physics that are twisted to “benefit” mankind… oops i got to go.

  • Davo

    religion is a conspiracy. the biggest (and most obvious) one of all.

  • Pingback: Top Conspiracy Theories… « THE TRUTH KILLS()

  • WTC 7

    Hi, Randall,

    I got interested in what you said about Pearl Harbor, namely the fact that a Japanese victory was not necessary, but that a simple attack would have been enough (you referred to 9/11 in this regard too). I admit that I only have a very basic knowledge about Pearl Harbor, and I personally never saw any conspiracy in it, but I would be really interested to hear a more detailed elaboration on your line of thought in that respect. Because I truly don’t see how you arrived to the conclusion you put forth above. I do understand that if the US wanted a reason to enter the war, a simple attack would have been sufficient. What I don’t see is why a victory would explicitly exclude a conspiracy on part of the US gov’t? And the reasoning behind the argument that everyone who don’t see it are idiots?

    I understand (from what Anon said) that you are history wizzard, but not everybody is. So, I would really appreciate to hear in more detail why you said that, if you have some time to spare. I’m looking forward to learning something new.

    As for 9/11, I believe it was an inside job (whether the US gov’t organized it entirely or just played along an existing Al Qaida plan). And my conviction that we are talking about a conspiracy was sealed by the 9/11 Commission’s report, which doesn’t even tackle issues such as numerous reports of survivors, firemen, etc. which talk about explosions, among other irregularities. Why would a serious investigation not even try to pay attention to such accounts? I recently visited a web-site called “Patriots Question 9/11” & was amazed how many people, beside the families of those who perished in that horrible event, are requesting a new, independent, inquiry into 9/11. And we are talking about scientists, architects, engenieurs, pilots, people who worked within the system, were honored with medals for bravery, service to the country, etc., university proffesors. Even Wesley Clark, in one of the interviews he gave, mentioned the fact that the 9/11 investigation never provided an in-depth explanation of what happened.

    Thus, it’s not just a few hot-heads gathering & proclaiming 9/11 is a conspiracy, it’s some serious people within the US society asking legitimate questins.

    Hence, as many of those considacy theorist appear to be brainwashed, that still doesn’t give anyone the right to label all people who require answers idiots.

  • Randall

    WTC 7:

    I’m not QUITE sure what you’re looking for, from me, in regards to Pearl Harbor… I suspect a trap from another conspiracy theorist… and I don’t have time for that shit.

    But if I understand you correctly, the point I have is this:

    A) the ideas of conspiracy theorists are built mainly on the fact that Roosevelt wanted to get us into WWII–and so they see in this a motivation for his “engineering” the attack, and

    B) on the (incorrect) supposition that the British or Americans (even less correct) had broken Japanese codes before the war, and were fully aware that the Pearl Harbor attack was coming. There are other minor points that I’ve heard from time to time–having to do with official warnings and such, but basically it all boils down to these two points, such as they are.

    Now then. The first point we can logically dispense with in short order. Franklin Roosevelt was, certainly, a man of the people. He bucked his own class of fellow plutocrats and other ultra-rich types to bring us the “New Deal,” which was the closest this country has ever come to the sort of democratized, dilute socialism that Europe embraced decades later, postwar (I do not say this was a bad thing, either… in fact, it worked at the time, and we still have many of FDR’s reforms in place now, such as Social Security). Moreover, FDR was a navy man. He’d been Secretary of the Navy under Wilson, and he was known as a great lover of “his navy” and naval traditions.

    Put these two factors together and then tell me that such a man could allow a devastating Japanese victory at Pearl Harbor which would rob him of most of his Pacific Fleet and lead to the deaths of thousands of American seamen and soldiers. It’s patently ridiculous. AT MOST one MIGHT argue (wrongly) that if there WAS a plot of some kind, then FDR would contrive to turn it into a trap for the Japanese–to have his fleet at readiness, with planes in the air, etc.–anything it would take to ensure that the attack occurred, but was an abject failure for the Japanese. This would be sufficient to cause American outrage, but would leave the US in a strong position at the start of the war. It is simply logical.

    But as it was, Pearl Harbor left us horribly vulnerable, with moral low and with few military options in the Pacific. The result was the defeat at the Phillippines, and the loss of other important Pacific bases which later had to be re-taken at a terrible cost. Now why would anyone open a war with a situation like that, *knowingly*? Certainly no one with a brain would. And FDR certainly had that.

    But there’s more.

    The war that FDR wanted us to get into was with GERMANY, not Japan. There would be little logic in opening a war with the latter, as it would A) not guarantee war with Germany–despite the axis pact (and yes, there’s evidence that Hitler may NOT have honored the pact, and there were technical points within the pact that could have justified such a decision on his part) and B) would have placed the US in a weakened position to *fight* that VERY war with Germany that FDR was interested in. As we all know, two-front wars are bad. They sap resources. They take longer. They’re prone to failure. As it was, we fought a holding action against Japan for the first half of the war while the focus was on Germany. But if FDR was orchestrating all this beforehand, why invent a headache for himself and the country? Furthermore, there are MOUNTAINS of evidence that FDR and his team were doing EVERYTHING they could, diplomatically, to prevent war with Japan, right up until the last minute. CLEARLY the administration did not want such a war, and yet they felt they had to stick to the course they had decided upon vis a vis the Japanese. Japan was obviously out for trouble and was unwilling to bend. Giving them what they wanted in the Pacific would have been tantamount to surrending much of it–at least the west–to them. This was unacceptable.

    Much is made of this, but the conspiracy ideas about it are a house of cards. America was opposing Japan in the Pacific prior to the war because Japan’s expansionism was in direct opposition to America’s interests in the region, and because Japan’s brutality in China and elsewhere was unacceptable. For this reason, and because it was assumed Japan was next going to threaten Southeast Asia and the Phillippines, FDR opted to move the Pacific Fleet to Pearl.

    But people who say “war was inevitable” are missing the point. Yes, war was inevitable. But no one imagined it could come to Pearl Harbor. There HAD been military theorists before the war who pointed out the vulnerability of the site, and you can say it was therefore short-sighted to place the fleet there. But human nature is lax in peacetime. And it must be remembered that the US had never been involved in a war like this before. Anyone who would hear of ideas about “attacks on the Pacific Fleet” would dismiss such ideas as fantasy. That’s just human nature. Shortsighted? Sure. Understandable? Yes.

    And we must remember, too, it WAS a great gamble and risk that the Japanese pulled at Pearl. It could have easily ended in disaster for them. It was a desperate move and Yamamoto, who planned the attack, knew it. He knew he couldn’t allow the US to have an intact fleet in the Pacific, if Japan even hoped to win a war there. It was as unthinkable to many Japanese leaders to attack Pearl as it was for many American leaders to imagine such an attack.

    The next point is the code breaking. This is in fact a distortion—the British prior to the war had made some inroads in breaking Japanese codes, but they had NOT broken the main Japanese naval code which the Japanese moved to some months before the war. American code breakers had broken the Japanese DIPLOMATIC code–but not their naval code—that came later (and therein lies some confusion too, on the part of conspiracy nuts… they hear we had at one point broken the Japanese naval code, and assume we broke it before the war. We didn’t… not until months later). Japanese diplomats had NO knowledge of Pearl Harbor beforehand—it was a closely kept secret.

    SO… look, this is all I have time for now. If this doesn’t answer your questions, then be more specific and I can address them more directly.

    As for your statements about 9/11… when people are in horribly stressful situations they report ALL KINDS of things. You can’t base a conspiracy theory on that. During Pearl Harbor all manner of nonsense was being reported, both at Pearl and on the mainland. None of it was true.

    As for the university professors and such–I’ve seen many of these people who are calling for investigations and such, saying the towers couldn’t have fallen the way they did and so on–interestingly, NONE of these experts are structural engineers. As qualified as SOME of these people are in their own fields—they do NOT know thing ONE about what holds buildings up and what makes them fall down. Structural engineers DO. And every structural engineer I’ve ever known or heard talk on this issue says that the towers fell the way you’d expect them to fall, given the strength of the fires and the original design of the buildings. Period.

  • WTC 7


    Well, thank you for your reply regarding the Pearl Harbor, it CERTAINLY is an elaborate explanation of your point of view and definitely answers my question. I do see the point, and your argument appears to be reasonable. I wouldn’t dare go into polemics about it with you, because I obviously lack knowledge on the subject. I would, however, dare say only one thing, which, I believe, I remember from history classes – FDR was fighting the isolationsts in the US and was desparate to get into the war. He had many opponents in this respect within the administration. The fact is, as you said, that Japan was threatening the intrests of the USA through its expansion in Asia, which prompted the USA to impose an embargo on trade and freeze Japanese assets in the US. Negotiations failed and the Japanese launched the attack on Pearl Harbor. I don’t know what FDR had in mind really, but, as I said before, this was never an issue for me in terms of a conspiracy – I never saw it as such and I certainly am satisfied with your argument.

    On the other hand, your 9/11 argument is more than weak. To simply dismiss as nonsense what so many first hand witnesses reported is at least irresponsible (not to use a stronger word here).

    I lived in a communist country for the best part of my life. My father was accused for being an anti-communist and spent some years in prison on these charges. I read the minutes from the trial sessions – your “arguments” are exactly the same. No questioning – you are guilty as charged, despite numerous accounts in your favour – these don’t count, they are not even considered under pretext: those who think like you are traitors too and their testimonies are not worth a dime!

    I came to dislike such thinking with a passion. From what I understood, you are a serious scholar and I would expect people like you to put a bit more thought into it. I learned from Anon that you are not only an expert in history but that you also follow American contemporary politics.

    What I’m talking about is not only about the fall of the WTC buildings (where I personally have nothing to say, not having even the basic knowledge on how buildings are built or how they can fall; but even there – how do the structural engineers explain the molten steel – well, they don’t, they simply say it wasn’t there), I’m talking about the wider context, which includes a lot of things:

    – the fall of the buildings hit by the planes,

    – the fall of WTC 7 (not hit by a plane),

    – the plane that hit the Pentagon that “evaporated”, where no human remains were found (except for those of people that were in the building at the time; no luggage, nothing! and Donald Rumsfeld in an interview saying: “…, and the MISSILE to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center” ( – site of the US dpt of defense),

    – the flight 93, at whose site of crashing there is NOTHING, however, the remains of the plane are discovered miles before the final point of crash,

    – the fact that the US administration had a ready plan to attack Afghanistan only hours after the 9/11 attack (already knowing that bin Laden was responsible for it!?),

    – the fact that FBI is still not looking for bin Laden for the 9/11 attacks (check the FBI official website), but only for 1998 US embassies bombings and some other terrorist deeds,

    – the fact that on Sept. 11, the US airforce was having its second day of exercise on potential terrorist attack on the US by planes (in which WTC and Pentagon were some of the targets), so when confronted with the real thing nobody concerned was sure whether that was an excercise or a real thing,

    – the fact that Dick Chaney was (suddenly) appointed to command NORAD few months before the attack, contrary to the usual procedure, and that the response to kidnapped planes alert was unusually slow on this occasion,

    – the fact that there were numerous warnings from various intelligence agencies that an attack was being planned on the US (although nothing concrete was known),

    – the fact that the US authorities stopped an undercover operation of their intelligence agencies tracking Muhamed Atta (in 1998/99), who was in the States at that time, and who was supposedly one of the main figures in the 9/11 attack,

    – the fact that the US top officials claimed, the day after 9/11, that they had no beforehand knowledge of the attack on the US, nor that anyone could have imagined something like this happening!,

    – the fact that US intelligence was on Al-Qaida’s tail since the the 1998 attack on US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania,

    – the fact that Bush and bin Laden families have a tight business relationship.

    What I don’t understand is WHY do the US top officials lie, WHY does the 9/11 Commission not take under consideration ALL reports and explain them accordingly (the WTC 7 fall is not even MENTIONED in their report).

    I am not implying anything, I am not talking about conspiracy, I am only asking why are all the pending questions not answered, seven years after the attack?

  • Anon

    WTC 7,

    So you still consider it required ALL those planes to hit critical targets?

    You still believe the seciruty services wre utterly confident they knew everything about the attacks beforehand?

    You definitely consider there was not the slightest risk of some unknown factor like a nuclear device?

    That is what you have take on board to support a conspiracy theory.

    I believe there is plenty of evidence from extreme war situations that violent explosions can destroy all organic traces of previous humanity.

    Also, all manner of *common* objects may *explode* during serious fires for various reasons. That does not necessarily signify anything sinister. Watch images of a natural forest firestorm and see trees *exploding* before your eyes.

  • Anon

    WTC 7

    “I lived in a communist country for the best part of my life.”

    I don’t think we should lose sight of the fact that totalitarian regimes of all shades are past masters at inventing conspiracy theories to pin on their ideological enemies.

    In those cases I’m quite sure you won’t find free discussion of the situation is allowed either, as in the U.S. and on this website. None of us here is in danger of being locked up in the slammer like your poor father (I dearly hope!!!).

    By the way, I know you would prefer your answers from an expert (Randall), but I hope you will accept my previous post as serious logical thoughts on the subject by a layman. That’s what LV is about. There is some expert opinion (which is often lumpenly ignored!), but by and large we are all contributing our personal thoughts, opinions and intellectual intepretations of matters we may or may not have personal experience of, and have thought about to a greater (or often lesser!) degree.

    I doubt there are any *historical experts* on 9/11 anyway, certainly not as yet.

  • astraya

    I’ll stay out of this but for one small comment.

    WTC 7 “- the fact that the US administration had a ready plan to attack Afghanistan”

    The US administration no doubt has ready plans to attack any nation on earth should the occasion arise. Afghanistan has been a strategic target since at least the Soviet invastion in 1979, probably much earlier.

  • Anon

    astraya, (264),

    A similar observation might be made about Bin Laden. The fact that the US admin, wallahs and CIA had him lined up their sights as a potentially extremely dangerous adversary does not in any way imply they knew what he was going to do. This is one of the brittle bones of such a conspiracy theory. It always takes for granted that absolutely everything was known and anticipated beforehand, right down to the last nut and bolt.

    Another point. Institutional assassination of one person could well be *arranged* to look like the work of someone mentally deranged. Above all, few people would need to be involved in the planning and execution (both meanings). However, the complexity and large numbers of people involved in fore-knowledge of Pearl or 9/11 would make conspiracy all but impossible (I would claim impossible) to maintain as a perpetual secret. Think of the individuals who would have had to know about 9/11 beforehand to keep tabs for ages on all the conspirators in all of the planes. How do you suppose (hypothetically) they might have reacted when asked to be complicit in the murder of thousands of their fellow Americans? Or if they were kept in the dark beforehand, what would be their reaction on discovering they had been *used* as tools in mass-murder? You think they are all going to keep their traps zipped to a man out of fear or indifference? Come on! Watergate, which was a nothing by comparison, fell apart because of the number of people involved. WMD wasn’t a conspiracy, it was a downright terminal inexactitude by Dubya-plus a few which was bound to be revealed anyway, so it doesn’t stand as comparison.

  • astraya

    Most of my arguments exactly! I am a big fan of humans, but basically we’re/they’re too stupid to maintain anything like that.

  • Randall


    See, WTC… what your arguments lack is a basic understanding of human nature. You say you came from a communist country… well, you’re not the first former-inhabitant of such a country to appear on this site, offering up conspiracy theories of this nature. It seems to be a near-habitual thing with people of such ilk—Russians, for instance, are conspiracy crazy. Why? I think it has to do with the nature of life in a totalitarian regime. You become used to a government that is ultra-distanced from the people, that can do as it pleases, that operates in near-total secrecy, and is free to manipulate and engineer public opinion as it sees fit. From this it’s easy to imagine that ALL governments are capable of this and can do this with as little effort and as much ease. But that just isn’t the case.

    Let’s get one thing straight–I am no defender of the Bush administration. I hate the man and I hate his administration and the blundering, bullying, stupid things they’ve done the last eight years. But while I believe Bush is capable of much, I do not for a moment believe that he and his administration were capable of a conspiracy of this nature, so vast and complex and unwieldy as it would be. It’s simply absurd. Moreover, it makes no logical sense. And while I admit Bush has rarely been logical or sensible, this is taking things too far, even for him.

    Now… let’s take what you said point by point:

    “To simply dismiss as nonsense what so many first hand witnesses reported is at least irresponsible (not to use a stronger word here).”

    I can’t agree, WTC. As I pointed out—at Pearl Harbor and for some days after, ALL KINDS of things were reported by “witnesses”—none of which turned out be true or factual. See, this is one instance where you’re failing to take into account human nature. At times of great stress, unsurety, fear, horror—people will be on pins and needles, ready to think that they see nearly anything. Have you not heard of what happened on Halloween night, 1938? Vast numbers of people were driven to hysteria by a radio broadcast of “War of the Worlds,” thinking that it was all real and that the US was being invaded by martians. There were people who reported *seeing* the martians, hearing them… they reported fires and deaths and other forms of carnage and destruction–NONE OF WHICH EVER HAPPENED. There are dozens of examples like this. Mass hysteria is an old story. What fueled it in 1938 were concerns and fears that the world was about to plunge into war–and so it was.

    What fueled it on 9/11 is that out of the blue, unimagined, the largest terror attack in history had been carried out and people simply were in shock. No one knew what was going on and all kind of fears were running ramapant. For all anyone knew, there could next be a mushroom cloud appearing over a major city.

    Now… given that, what was reported? The stuff I’ve seen offers no standout evidence of anyone seeing anything that could not be easily explained. Rather, it all fits with A) hysteria and B) people not having the knowledge or science savvy to understand what they were seeing.

    So let’s continue:

    “…how do the structural engineers explain the molten steel – well, they don’t, they simply say it wasn’t there”

    Remember that I am not a structural engineer myself, though I know a few. Now, I haven’t heard anyone deny the presence of “molten steel,” but I can’t authoritatively say that there WAS molten steel on the site, either. However, I’ve heard this, and I’ve heard engineers talk about it, as well as physicists versed in thermal mechanics and so on. Also, although this is less important, I am the son of a pilot, and so I know a thing or two about aviation.

    It’s difficult for some people to understand the massive energy and heat generated by burning aviation fuel. Remember that this is the stuff that keeps jet engines going, pushing a multi-ton vehicle forward to generate lift, enabling this huge hunk of metal to fly at speeds approaching 500 MPH or more. Aviation fuel is, therefore, highly volatile stuff. Burning on its own it’s impressive. But exploded suddenly in a massive fireball, it’s almost beyond imagining. The heat is terrific, astounding.

    Next, you force that explosion and its resulting heat and energy into a confined space—i.e., the WTC towers after each plane hit them. Then you take those towers–which were built, atypically, around central cores with only the slightest reinforcement surrounding the core—this was done, in the 70s, to save weight and cost. Fact is, it had worked. The towers were judged able to withstand wind sheer, a certain amount of movement, ordinary fires, and so on. They were NOT, however, designed to withstand the SHOCKINGLY intense fireball generated by an exploding airliner FILLED with aviation fuel. This was not foreseen, and the design of the towers, centering solely around that central core, could not stand up to it. Steel WILL melt given sufficient sustained temperature.

    At any rate, all it took was enough structural weakening by that massive fire, and the structure of the towers failed. They pancaked–which is what structural engineers would expect. Moved to failure, the towers sought the least resistance, and came down accordion style.

    “- the fall of WTC 7 (not hit by a plane),”

    I’ve heard this before, too, and it’s just more of the same–lack of knowledge on the part of laymen, thinking they can say what buildings should and should not do, given a complex situation. Fact is, the massive damage overall caused various kinds of structural collapse, and again, I know of not one structural engineer who has a problem with the collape of WTC 7.

    “- the plane that hit the Pentagon that “evaporated”, where no human remains were found (except for those of people that were in the building at the time; no luggage, nothing!”

    AGAIN, WTC—this is the same thing. It fails to take into account the nature of this kind of explosion. Jet airliners, for all their size and weight, are (comparatively speaking) flimsy constructs. They have to be, in order to get into the air. All airplanes are. (RELATIVELY speaking). They’re aluminum and other light-weight metals. Subject a construct like that to the massive heat and explosion of said vehicle traveling at relatively high speed, colliding with a far more heavily constructed building (the Pentagon is one of the strongest constructed buildings you can think of) and yes, the plane and all its passengers and such VAPORIZE. This is no surprise and is simple physics.

    But it is also not true that “nothing” was found. There WAS wreckage and debris found, though very little. Again, though, to be expected.

    “and Donald Rumsfeld in an interview saying: “…, and the MISSILE to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center””

    I can’t attest to this. One can only assume, given the choice between the wild and the believable, that Rumsfeld simply misspoke. Again, that’s not surprising or unexpected.

    “- the flight 93, at whose site of crashing there is NOTHING, however, the remains of the plane are discovered miles before the final point of crash,

    Same goes here for what I said above about the plane hitting the Pentagon.

    I don’t recall the specifics on debris being found away from the actual crash site. If that was so, then it simply suggests that the plane began to break up prior to its actual crash. This could have been caused by any number of factors and need not suggest anything sinister.

    “- the fact that the US administration had a ready plan to attack Afghanistan only hours after the 9/11 attack (already knowing that bin Laden was responsible for it!?),”

    Come on, WTC… this is really reaching. A) the military keeps plans in readiness for all sorts of strategic contingincies. Afghanistan’s Taliban was known to be hostile to the US and known to harbor terrorists. It is no surprise whatsoever that in short order a plan was ready to take the Taliban out. Such a plan was probably in conception for a long while before, and it’s to be expected. B) As for knowing Bin Laden was responsible, I don’t recall the exact chronology of events, and we are not privy to what intelligence was had at the time. We know that Al Qaeda took credit for the attack eventually, but it’s quite possible they were suspected well before–in fact, that would be a safe bet, given their escalating attacks prior to 9/11, and the WTC had been targeted before, if you remember. It wasn’t a big jump to assume Bin Laden and his organization was behind 9/11.

    “- the fact that FBI is still not looking for bin Laden for the 9/11 attacks (check the FBI official website), but only for 1998 US embassies bombings and some other terrorist deeds,”

    I can’t attest to what this is about and neither can you. We are not lawyers or FBI experts. I DO know that the FBI is a legal entity, a police agency, that as a rule must follow certain guidelines. Someone may have judged that, on technicalities, it is more accurate to say bin Laden is wanted for other crimes that it is easier to link him to, rather than 9/11 where, while clearly guilty, there may not (yet) be the evidence to say he directed the attacks and so on—certainly not enough for an indictment, which the FBI would need. Again, I don’t know this, and neither do you. I’d sooner hear from an FBI expert on this.

    “- the fact that on Sept. 11, the US airforce was having its second day of exercise on potential terrorist attack on the US by planes (in which WTC and Pentagon were some of the targets), so when confronted with the real thing nobody concerned was sure whether that was an excercise or a real thing,”

    Where did you get this piece of information? It’s a new one on me. At any rate, it says nothing. So they were having exercises. You could interpret that various ways. You’re suggesting, what? That it was a diversion, meant to keep people in the dark, so they’d be slower to react? I’d say it makes less sense than ever. Why have such exercises? Why not just have planes grounded for some reason, if this was all some grand conspiracy?

    This is just too nebulous to say anything one way or another. Moreover, I don’t even know that it’s so.

    “- the fact that there were numerous warnings from various intelligence agencies that an attack was being planned on the US (although nothing concrete was known),”

    well that says it right there–NOTHING CONCRETE was known. It is not at all odd to say that no one would have expected the attack as it occurred. It was a shock to everyone clearly, and unless you want to maintain that EVERYONE in intelligence and the military were in on this too, it was clearly a shock to them as well.

    Again, WTC… NONE of this is EVIDENCE. It is simply hint and innuendo. Nothing more. It’s the kind of stuff unsupportable gossip is built on. That’s all.

    Look… the bottom line is this:

    A conspiracy of this nature would have to be, by its very definition, MASSIVE. And not only massive, but incredibly complex–so complex that it simply falls apart. If you are suggesting that the plane didn’t hit the Pentagon, for instance–then where did the people go who were on that plane? What happened to them? And with all the people who would HAVE to be involved in this—covering up evidence, manufacturing evidence, diverting attention, lying, manuevering—you’d be talking about THOUSANDS of people needing to be in on this, directly and indirectly. It’s INSANE. Not only that, but someone would have spilled something.

    And what, in the end, would the Bush administration have gotten out of this? A conspiracy so massive, so dangerous, so prone to discovery and failure, would be a GIGANTIC risk. It would demand, then, GIGANTIC returns. Not simply more oil or more oil money–that’s small potatoes for something like this. We’re talking about an overthrow of the American government—of creating a situation where Bush could override the constitution and remain permanently in power. Nothing short of that could justify this unbelievably immense (fictional) conspiracy.

  • Anon

    WTC 7,

    By the way, there’s something I’ve been meaning to mention for a while. In the short month or two since I discovered LV, I’ve been involved in a very few misunderstandings leading to spats, such as our recent episode (not always so ferocious!). The observant eye would have noticed many more in the topics (and continuing). I and several others have recognised and written down that this largely stems from the fact that it isn’t possible to type subtle tones of voice or facial expressions which smooth out head-to-head and even telephone conversations. (Some use those smiley things as an aid.) Often these visual and aural *overtones* would have led to an instant solution of problems, instead of which they simply propagated. I’m sure that would have been the case with us. Clearly we each of us didn’t even have the faintest idea where the other was coming from!

  • Anon

    Randall and WTC 7,

    I don’t know if it clarifies the discussion further, but we heard at the time, and have heard often since, those 9/11 planes described as *missiles*. What else were they?

    This is only from memory and would require checking, but I believe during the Hamburg firebomb storms of WW2, for example, even superficial bricks and concrete vapourised.

  • Anon

    astraya, (266),

    And not only stupid. Although successful conspiracy attempts, if any, will always remain unknown by their very success, there is also a long succession of valiant *whistle blowers*. These have frequently also paid a heavy price, including their lives. Not to mention anonymous tell-tales such as Deep-throat. This factor helps to stop my faith in human nature dropping too low!

  • Kahoneez

    ” Global Leadership ” what a joke . PNAC implied far more than global leadership and you have to put it in context of ” Full Spectrum Dominance ” U.S. military strategy of dominating every region of the planet, the air and space (ie space weaponry ).
    Even if you just read between the lines of PNAC , its a doctrine to invade , intimidate , build bases whether indigenous people want it or not and to dominate regions, or just hyper Imperialism . The great myth is the world is just sitting around wanting to be lead by the U.S. , frankly the world is tired of U.S. militarism, wars and threats . Now these cowardly NEOCONS , criminals with no moral conscience at all, some of the bloodiest depraved minds created PNAC .

  • Anon

    A great deal has been pumped out about U.S. militarism here. Broadly speaking, open warfare seems to be an extremely high risk strategy in the modern world, with a good chance of failure and a heavy cost, as borne out by recent history. Nuclear weapons are all but useless.

    So how about global commercial competition as the new dominance strategy, with China already looking to be top dog in the very forseeable future? Ca 500 different firms there turning out motorbikes was a latest statistic on our TV news tonight. During the olympics it was announced that a new Chinese millionare is recorded every 10 minutes. Now that is winning global dominance while gaining money rather than pouring it away on arms, and with no wasteful loss of manpower. Pass me my chopsticks.

  • Crimanon

    Anon: Would you like some dead dogs and poisoned babies too? Chinese products are inferior and tainted. Quantity not quality. I’m tired of my boots not lasting through my shift.

    Every country in the world that uses Chinese products is scared to mention their weapons capabilities for fear of trade being cut off. China is what it is until the world corrects them. Communist countries need to fall, Fascist countries (like mine) need to go broke. A true democracy will Never fail.

    … you’ll have to excuse, I’m not as articulate as I usual. Just woke up, “Pass me my chopsticks” pressed one of my buttons

  • Randall


    While I don’t disagree with you much in regards to Chinese products, let’s not worry overly much about Chinese weapons capabilities. In fact, we worry too much about the Chinese in general. Here’s some hopeful (if perhaps naive) thoughts:

    A) the Chinese are a practical people who will probably always place stability and good trade relationships above all else—as we often (in fact almost always) do. As such, remember that the Chinese need us as good customers more (it’s likely) than we need them. This presents the likelihood that they will behave themselves for quite some time to come.

    B) the Chinese are not possessed of the wild, extravagant paranoia that seems to be infused in many Russians or in Russian culture in general. It’s more sensible, therefore, to pay greater attention to careful and measured relations with Russia… whereas with China, again, their natural pragmatism makes them far easier to maneuver around, relate to, and negotiate with.

    C) Our experience is that, in a given society, an ever-increasing middle class leads more and more to demands, from the middle class within that society, for greater freedoms or at least less restrictions. I am confident that if China continues down the road to greater economic success—a path they seem quite ready to adhere to—then in time their society will open up more and more, and become more and more free. Already they are, in many ways, much less totalitarian than authoritarian. Believe it or not, this can be viewed as progress. I’m willing to bet that in the course of things, we’ll see a democratic China. Maybe even in our lifetimes. But certainly if we do, it’ll have, at this stage of things, a greater chance of success than a democratic Russia.

    In short, a resurgent Russia (for all it’s ACTUAL weakness, currently) worries me a bit. We shouldn’t be against Russia being a power on the world stage–but we shouldn’t be allowing it to step back into an adversarial role with us. Greater steps should be taken to reign them in via diplomacy and better relations. (Humiliating them and pushing them isn’t going to work).

    Whereas a growing China doesn’t worry me. Again, they are, in fact, still far less of a power than the United States… but more to the point, our interests do not so diverge that there isn’t hope for a lot of common ground between us.

  • Anon


    Before WW2 the Japanese were famous for turning out quantities of shoddy, cheap, imitation tin toys and the like at the very bottom end of the market. These were often dangerous for kids. Western opinion considered that to be their limit in world marketing.

  • Anon


    Our new computer was made in China. It is excellent and highly regarded in the specialised marketplace, as well as by ourselves.

  • Crimanon

    Anon: I’ve never argued that Pre-WWII japan had horrible products… Hence the term “Jap-Crap”. Post world war two japanese industrialization was, to put it bluntly, Righteous. Most of the best tech in the world will come out of Japan, one look at their wrap around LCD Watches will tell you that.

    Using the deductive logic on that one will give you a simple answer. We bombed Japan and they realized that war was brutal. We showed them our tech and they showed us what fiber optics were. Their cars are One Big Post Coital Wet Slap across the face.

    Should we bomb China to put them into the same frame of mind? No. We need to show China what good equipment is. It’s definitely not some left over, clone IBM tech. China needs to know where it stands in the American mind.

    One of the scariest thoughts I have is belonging to the North American Republic of China.

    Randall: Agreed. Have you ever seen how an injured bear reacts to strangers?

  • Anon


    “Hence the term “Jap-Crap”.”

    I’ve co-opted that hyphenation for their present cynical, violent, artistically-void kid’s cartoons. And with all that amazing historical aesthetic culture behind them too. Why didn’t you show them how to inject humour and humanity into those as well after WW2? (Plus showing respect for the way the rest of us care for whales!)

  • Anon

    I also agree with Randall. The Chinese aren’t a fundamentally samurai, martial society, even though that aspect figures marginally in their culture. They won’t need bombing into submission. Market forces will be enough *natural selection* to mould their commercial pragmatism, I suspect!

  • Anon

    Check: World Republic of China!

    We heard all about the *Yellow Peril* right back during scholldays.

  • Anon

    Randall, (when you pass this way, friend),

    “Jet airliners, for all their size and weight, are (comparatively speaking) flimsy constructs. They have to be, in order to get into the air. All airplanes are. (RELATIVELY speaking).”

    I thought about backing up that point at the time, but it seemed superfluous. I was going to recall how we had on three occasions over the last few decades come upon semi-intact light planes which had force-landed in the snow during the Andean ski season and had subsequently been left high and dry. How unbelievably fragile, thin and and paper-like their partially-crumpled alloy skin had looked, and how readily much of the internal structure had buckled. So different from a car. Only the engine, its mounting, the seats and a few other key points are relatively more indestructible. Little could I have imagined a passing LV thought would have terrible personal meaning for us so soon.

    Recently we have been given flights parallel with the Andes in just such a small Cessna by Sergio, our dentist, and his wife Gabriela, two of the lovliest people imaginable, and among our very few real and true, dear Chilean friends. Within the hour we have just heard they and one other were victims of a mechanical failure. Their aircraft crashed and they were killed in the coastal mountains to the west of here last evening. Civil planes are indeed frighteningly flimsy and vulnerable if anything goes wrong. I’m sorry, pouring this emotion and grief out here. Anita has phoned me with the news from the town-centre, and I just need to scream out the pain to someone who can understand. Not even Brahms Requiem is diminishing it, just helping it to break free.

  • Randall


    I’m very sorry.

  • Anon


    Many thanks, much appreciated. It’s amazing to feel one has some real and sincere friends at the other end of these connections.

    I’ll come in to your current excellent new list and at least read it and the comments when I’m more in the mood to savour.
    I just managed to get my sense of humour back in gear for a quick posting elsewhere, but with difficulty.

    3000 hours experience (several with us). Pilot instructor. President of the flying club. An almost over-cautious pilot. A 45 minute trip from an outing at the coast to home in broad daylight. Fine weather. The club’s newest plane. It’s all so crazy. They at least had enjoyed a fair chunk of life (in their 50s), but the young guy on the duals was only 22.

  • Randall


    “3000 hours experience (several with us). Pilot instructor. President of the flying club. An almost over-cautious pilot. A 45 minute trip from an outing at the coast to home in broad daylight. Fine weather. The club’s newest plane. It’s all so crazy.”

    It is. It’s no good, I know, to say “these things happen,” but this is what life is, isn’t it? My own dad—as I’ve mentioned, he was a bomber pilot in WWII. He saw a great deal of combat. He and his plane and his men were shot at by Japanese planes and ground-based/ship-based anti-aircraft guns. Not to mention the risk of flying, probably on a daily basis for some stretches, in not always the best conditions. Undoubtedly there were many opportunities where he could have been killed.

    He lived through all that, however… only to crash his plane less than 20 years later, in a moment’s carelessness, by hitting some electrical wires while doing some cropdusting. He suffered terrible third and second degree burns all over his body. Then he recovered from that–or at least seemed to–and died suddenly a couple years later, right after I was born, from cancer. In his early 40s.

    There’s a lot of irony in that. Also, it sucks.

    The irony in life can be entertaining, but it can also be tragic, and I also hate it sometimes.

    And the situation with your friends–that’s another one where, yes, I could say to god or whoever/whatever it is that’s in charge of all this–we could do without the fucking tragic irony, thank you.

    Anyway, again, I’m very sorry.

  • Anon


    Ever more thanks for your latest thoughtful reply.

    Part of the reaction is due to violent, shocking, close-quarters, personal tragedy having mercifully been such an extremely rare visitor in my life. (Although the regular loss of loved and admired public figures *before their time* is bad enough.) As one who was fortunate enough to have a wonderful, life-long relationship with my own father, I feel deeply for your own early loss too.

    There are so many clichés to fill the moment. In an objective frame of mind I know perfectly well what life is, and what to expect potentially at any time out of the blue (the worst!). My own medicine back: I recently replied in the animal testing thread “Who said life is fair?” But on the spur of the moment, in grief and shock, you rage at the heavens. I yelled out for no one to hear, but aimed at our vile, slimy drug-dealer across the road, “Why not you, you
    rotten worthless piece of human garbage-shite?”, knowing full well why not.

    Humans, westerners in particular, love to kid themselves they are pretty much in control (Dubya right now??), or have the capacity to be. We don’t even keep our own hearts ticking (pacemakers excepted). Just think how much of us is *hard-wired*. We didn’t design ourselves, we didn’t order and set up the environment we live in. We simply do the best, or worst, we can with what we are, who we are, and what there is. I have a saying that could almost dangerously let humanity off any hook: We didn’t make the rules. Fortunately for us, however, the vast majority, and especially those of high I.D., know intuitively that only trying to aim for the (apparent) constructive best makes sense.

    Sergio and Graciela were straight off that high I.D. rack; those we can least afford to lose. Fortunately they have left us two fine young grown-up sons in their own mould.

    For all the point of worrying at it, I’m beginning to think a bird-strike could perhaps make sense. One of the large
    raptors thermalling around the mountain which claimed them (cf. ‘The Edge’: Anthony Hopkins et al., not U2!).

    Well, life goes on. I’ll shortly be posting an *historical* secret agent thought at your topic I hope may be of some minor interest.

  • Rob Cadman

    228. Anon

    My source for saying that the US govt. had been warned is a Dr. Collins of Swansea Univeristy. Britain was still loosing the war, granted it was now secure but it was short of supplies due to German U boats, and it had no front against Germany in Europe as there was no way it could open one. And Malta and Gilbrata (sp?), although very nice places are just tiny little bits of land in the grand scheme of things. you also mention the Britain’s empire, well of course it was holding up it was bigger than Britain and had more resources availible, and it was WW2 that led to Britain’s colonies gaining independence, so it was hardly a great position for Britain to be in.

  • Anon

    Rob, (286),

    Thanks for the courtesy of your reply.

    As for a warning from Britain to the U.S., I should appreciate a heap more info. than a pers. comm. reference, albeit from a university historian. Warned by whom, about what, from what source, in what detail? And all this supported by what indisputable written documntation?

    It ain’t for me to go over again the exposition that has been set out so eloquently and expertly by Randall, himself an American with no axe to grind. However, both he and I have pointed out that not even the Japanese diplomats in the States were advised in advance of the P.H. attack. Nobody was except the very few high-command planners who HAD to know. Radio silence was maintained with a military discipline that only the Japanese and Germans possessed in those days. So where did the leak come from?

    Randall has also noted that it’s one thing knowing an attack was imminent somewhere, sometime, an utterly different matter to know precisely where and when. Despite your comments, all our earlier objections stand intact, not least
    concerning the absurdity of allowing massive avoidable destruction to your own forces, already weak enough.

    Take a good look at the history of warfare at the time. Precedent for major fleet air attacks? None. They were a planned possibility, true, especially in the eyes of military visionaries such as Billy Mitchell, but nothing more. To forsee that the Japanese would or could launch the first massive major aerial seaborne armada ever against a target as remote as Pearl was far more unlikely that the Argentinians anticipating Britain’s reaction in the Falklands.

    And believe me, Britain was not, repeat not, losing the war at that stage in any way. There was no need for a European front, either for dire defensive reasons or, at that stage, offensive ones. The Germans had helpfully created a brilliant (from our point of view) diversionary one themselves against Russia, and once that heppened, short of being first in the nuclear race, Germany had already lost the war, just as Yamamoto (another visionary) knew Japan had (with the same nuclear proviso) the moment it attacked Pearl. Despite wolf-pack attrition, Britain was also doing nicely enough from Atlantic convoys. You appear to have overlooked Canada, incidentally. Ironically, Germany suffered the supplies problem, as also in WW1. I’ve read about the starving German populations in both wars. I even have a German doctor friend (now a naturalised American) who, as a boy, had to run the gauntlet of ground-zero allied strafing, diving in ditches, simply to bring home enough bread for his family to survive. THAT is losing a war. Again, believe me, my family and I probably never had a better, healthier, if not always exciting diet than in those days. By then the skies were clear, except for masses of ours, the shelters flooded or beginning to be used as play-dens. And pace lease-lend, and despite a brief period of intense blitz, home-front war production just went from strength to strength, starting at the word go. You have it completely wrong, my friend. I woz there.

    Also during the war, with the possible exception of the Indian sub-continent (though probably not Ceylon as was), there was but one thought among British possessions, to close ranks and deafeat the axis jointly. Remember too that not a few were occupied by the Japanese in the short term. Nothing at that point was further from anybody’s mind than independence. The change came rapidly in peacetime, true, but it came later. Soviet post-war intentions, especially in Eastern Europe, were far more evident at a much earlier stage. Churchill, in general a far-sighted statesman, forsaw those, but not the loosening of the Empire. (It’s still the British Commonwealth, by the way!) Being wise after the event maketh not good history.

  • Anon

    “…it was WW2 that led to Britain’s colonies gaining independence …”

    It would be utterly naíve to suppose that independence wouldn’t have been just around the corner anyway, regardless of WW2. The stirrings were well under way, especially in India. If anything, there is good reason to suppose WW2 may actually have slowed down the process.

  • Mikey

    I have it on good authority that Kurt Cobain smelled. Also Jay how can you say Mother Theresa was an unsung hero. Ibet you don’t even know what her last name was. Princess Diana lent her name to charities to get them exposure/support, anyone who does not understand that is American.

  • Crimanon

    Mikey: I understand that just fine and I’m a Proud American. And Kurt smelled like Teen Spirit(R). It was the deodorant that he wore.

  • Ramses

    People, the new world order and illuninati is no conspiracy. These leaders are more afraid of the forces of the dark than us poor tax payers. Their souls have already been taken by such forces. All the future is unfolding right before our very eyes – the chaos of the financial markets, proposed war to come and many more. Remember the masonics own the large organisations and will do anything to set the new world order, including sacrificing their own companies. There is even more surveillance than ever before in the name of public safety (but from who?. More and more databases and soon to come fingerprinting of our school children. Next it will be the implant in your hand or forehead so that you may buy or sell and even for healthcare. So sit back, watch, and pray.

  • fil

    all bullshit… the facts are the 9/11 was an inside job, we got some children here who think blowing up 2 towers to cover up the iraq war is unthinkable.. open ur eyesss! .. and ur brain!! If they can murder Millions of inicent civilians people in nthe middle east, and hundreds of american troops, you really think its a hard decition to blow up 2 towers and a couple of hundred people to blind you mother fuckers of thinking the war is ok because there fighting “terrorist”… its all for oil ;) and the billions of $$$$ made from it….. and the tax payer pays for the war by the nose!

    The Diana theory is also true.. A divorce would look bad on the royal family.. so why not jus kill her!

  • Cuzz

    fil u took the words out of my mouth!! xD

    u all probebly know about “zeitgeist”!
    for the ones who dont…

    a must see!!!!


  • Anon

    “The Diana theory is also true..”

    And the moon is made of blue cheese. That’s also true. Believe me. I know. I’ve eaten some. No astronauts ever went there. That was just a conspiracy. The greedy government bastards put all the $$$s for the space programme in their own pockets.

    Actually I died when I was 15 and someone else is pretending to be me and posting here as Anon.

    Life’s actually a big conspiracy anyway. We’re not really real at all, you know, we’ve just been kidded we are.

    Wibble, wibble, wibble, wibble, wibble …

  • Doug

    A new conspiracy theory – The rise of oil prices to $180 that sent a major shock to our economy was actually an attack by our enemies (pick-one, Iran, China, Al-Queda, N. Korea). The markets were manipulated and the ripple effect is crushing us. The best part – we were attacked and don’t even know it. Talking about a Trojan horse. Modern day warfare is not limited to tanks, etc. The best way to defeat your enemy is to attack when you don’t even know it.

    All pieces to the 2012 puzzle. Pay attention folks.

  • elvisisntdead

    all these theories are a complete load of bollocks u ppl must be thick 2 believe it.

  • m0nk3y humor

    Elvis is dead and he didn’t die from drugs, he died taking a huge crap.

    It is possible to die from a huge poo poo

  • smokeymcgibz

    Can anyone else figure out the significants of the number 11 in the 911 theories, for example NEW YORK CITY (11 letters)AFGHANISTAN (11 letters) BILL CLINTON (11 letters)not to mention 9+1+1=11 the terrorist ramsin yuseb who tried to blow up the towers in 1993, his name has 11 letters, new york is the 11th state admitted into the us apparntly the first plane to strike the towers was flight number 11 which incidently was carrying 92 passengers again 9+2=11 again alledgedly flight 77 another so called flight number of one of the aircraft to hit the towers had supposedly 65 6+5=11, what i do find i little bizzare is the figure of both fatalities from both planes is 254 2+5+4= you quest it 11. There at more i could right on about but i think i have made my point not to sound rude.

    I am a very philisophical and very deep thinker and have only recently turned my hand to conspircy theories and so far i am currently enjoying the looking further into matters of both histical events and those of more current affairs, cant believe i never read into hem sooner ohh well better late then never

    if it was not for geometry then life would be pointless, food for thought thanks for reading hopefully catch you soon

  • Charlie

    298.smokeymcgibz I’ve got a question. Are you a mason?

    Just wanna know.

    and have you ever heard of “coincedences”? How, no, Why would the terrorists base their attacks on the number eleven?
    does it have anything to do with numbers in the koran? and besides 11 is not a perfect number. 11 = 2. 2 is not a perfect number. So why then would they base their attacks on the number 11?

    Life would not be pointless without geometry … but it does help. ;)

  • Ryan B

    It is quite sad to read through the comments here. The ignorance is astonishing. To think that anyone here would actually believe the official story of JFK’s assassination simply means they have done ZERO research. Magic Bullet Theory anyone? The JFK assassination is so obviously a CIA/Black-Ops hit that there’s no point in wasting time talking about it. Do the smallest amount of honest research… How closed are the minds of so many…

    September 11th, 2001 – America has a multi-trillion dollar air-defense structure commanded by NORAD. Over 200 times a year, fighter jets are “scrambled” as a precaution when commercial planes lose contact/go off course. The interception takes place with 15 minutes at a maximum. On 9/11, in over 90 minutes, ZERO planes were “scrambled”.

    The airspace anywhere near the Twin Towers is restricted airspace. To think that even AFTER the first plane hit the twin towers, that a SECOND plane could hit 20 minutes later WITHOUT INTERCEPTION is unbelievable really. The airspace around the Pentagon is restricted airspace for 100 MILES. The Pentagon is the most secure building in the world. Massive ignorance is shown by anyone who believes a plane could hit the Pentagon before being shot down (50 miles away..)

    Last thing I’d like to mention – WTC Building 7. 47 story skyscraper, “collapsed” at 5pm on 9/11. It wasn’t hit by a plane and looked exactly like a controlled demolition. Here’s where it gets really interesting – The 9/11 Commission Report fails to mention WTC Building 7 even ONE TIME. It omits it completely from its report… nothing to worry about, though…

    The “conspiracy theory” that 19 arab “terrorists” were able to make all of this happen… that’s the most ridiculous thing that I’ve heard. If you have even the faintest doubts, if you’ve broken away even the slightest bit from the mind-control drone you’ve been turned into by your schools, media, government, religion… then do a google for the videos below — or close the lid on the little box you are in and put your head back down.

    Zero: Investigation into 9/11
    Loose Change: Final Cut
    Fabled Enemies

  • Ryan B

    By the way – the above comments are the very tip of the iceberg… every facet of 9/11 can be shown to be a lie

  • ghjksdvk

    that sucked

  • KAM

    well i am not a believer in conspiracy theories. But still there some questions to be considered

    9/11:- It was a terrorist attack for sure, a list of people was given repeatedly by media as hijackers,but little proofs were provided that ‘HOW’ they were hijackers apart from being middle eastern(non-iraqis and non-afghans/pakistanis).No footage of airplane hitting pentagon and no ‘significant’ plane wreckage found.

    BUT the biggest flaw which i noticed when after a few years the records of conversation of the said hijackers was released to media. One recording said,

    ‘Ladies and gentleman its the captain(hijacker), in the name of God the most merciful’

    Now i am a muslim myself and every practicing muslim before starting every work e.g before meals,travelling etc says In the name of God the most merciful(Bismillah in arabic). Now this hijacker who is said to be a Muslim extremist or staunch follower of religion, how can he mention himself first and the God in the name he was doing this evil act afterwards. I THINK ITS A HUGE FLAW.

    UFOs:- Dont know much about it, but i think it may be the testing of secret or latest military hardware.

    KENNEDY:- Some suggest that he passed a law(never followed) that production of currency rights should be taken in goverment control from Federal reserve(a private body).I wont go further i think i made a point.

    GLOBAL WARMING:- Its no conspiracy its reality which we can see with our naked eye.

    DIANA:- If its a conspiracy then its almost impossible to prove. No proof no conspiracy.

    JEWISH WORLD DOMINATION:- Its no conspiracy jews do dominate world in all aspects especially economy,media,politics etc.
    But do they use this advantages to make their own ends meet.
    Well its quite normal for every nation or group of people to keep their own interests supreme, for example US will protect its interest even if those interest goes against rest of the humanity and US does it frequently i.e US wont hesitate to launch a attack to kill one terrorist even it involves killing 50 innocents and it usually happens.

    MOON LANDING:- Its no conpiracy, its reality.

    PEARL HARBOUR:- Dont know, but US entered ww1 when Germany sank a us ship(Germans did publish it in us newspapers that they will sink that ship if it embarked still it did),entered ww2 actively after pearl harbor,entered Vietnam when us naval vessels attacked(later found to be a lie),entered war on terror after 9/11. Why always there have to be an ‘INCIDENT’ to get America involved militarily? Is just a coincident?

    Never heard of rest of the conspiracy theories.

  • WTC 7

    Ryan B – Well spoken!

  • WTC 7

    Ryan B
    By the way, if you haven’t seen it already, search on Google: Zeitgeist Movie & Zeitgeist Addendum, I think you’ll like it. I certainly did :-)

  • Osei Sarpong

    I luv it.It all make up the world.

  • WTC 7

    And what a world…… Really, why would anyone even think of making it better? By the way, humans are so bad that making it better isn’t possible, so why bother. That’s the attitude! I congratulate your wisdom :-))))))))

  • waveydavey

    Great article, thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

  • Anon

    Spoken like a true human addressing another true human, 307.

  • Osei Sarpong

    Hope you do know them christian prayer”THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN”?indeed his will (suffering & troubles) is being done on earth.let his will forever be done on earth AMEN!!!

  • GIbs

    boy check it out

  • OSEI

    I wander how a true believer of “god” can insult a fellow friendly unto me for i am the servant of tha same…
    a true worshiper of the innefable KING of LLEH.

  • kerry

    If you’re anything like me then you think everything is a conspiracy. JFK was covered up as for 9/11 its possible so that the country could go to war, if it is a conspiracy and the government did engineer it then they are clearly never going to say so. most people believe George bush is responsible, but is he or is he just a face that people can blame? when in-fact he’s basically just a puppet maybe it’s goes further than most of us realise. but then again maybe not. George bush was proved to be idiotic and incompetent, do you really think he could possibly have this idea? there are loads of theories out there on a lot of things. my personal favorite being the moon landing, my dad for example is always going on about alumina ti and the Romanov’s and how at least two escaped or were set free secretly by a few of there captors to go in to hiding. for what reason that would happen I don’t even think he knows lol. there are loads more like subliminal messages placed on TV and such places in the months leading up to Xmas, unfortunately we may never have answers.

  • Anon


    Attractive and romantic though the idea of Anastasia surviving is, the Romanovs have recently all been stated to have been shot together at the same time, as based on DNA checks. Of course, anyone who is determined to see conspiracy at any price will merely say the DNA proof is another invented part of the conspiracy cover-up!

    As for seeing a conspiracy in everything, Randall has addressed this eloquently somewhere or other, and I seem to remember having made the same point.

    For any supposed conspiracy, take the minimum number of people who would have to know and keep quiet (or be kept quiet!). The larger that number, the less likely is a conspiracy. Reason? Secrets are not easy to keep, even when a few individuals are involved and not much is at stake. Take 9/11. Hundreds of people would have to have known and still be keeping quiet if it had been a U.S. planned operation. You believe that among those hundreds, none would be outraged enough to make the murder of several thousands of their fellow Americans public? A whistle-blower doesn’t even have to put their life at risk. It can be done anonymously. Think of ‘Deep Throat’ in the Watergate affair.
    The same objection eliminates Pearl Harbour as a conspiracy and almost certainly the moon landing.

    Where there is a free press, it is also necessary to consider that has also been silenced from investigating any major conspiracy. Again, think how Watergate came to public attention.

    The assassination of a single person, on the other hand, could indeed by planned and executed by very few, so in theory at least, is a much more plausible conspiracy. The objections to Diana being assassinated are not based on the impossibility of such an assassination, but on a set of other factors that run totally contrary.

  • kerry

    I never said Anastasia most who believe this to be true say that it was an older sister and the brother. i don’t think this is true, as you pointed out there is no logical reason for this to happen as they were wanted dead. As for 9/11 if it was covered up I imagine that only a select few would know about it in advance and only people who could be trusted to keep it a secret, but it may not have been covered up and may indeed have been carried out by these terrorists. It just depends on how you look at it and what you choose to believe. pearl harbour I don’t believe for a second that it was know about by America for the simple fact that on that day they sustained a serious blow to there military and navel regiments. what good is that because a war as serious as ww2 they would need as many men as possible, so why just allow it. the moon landing I like as it I guess will never be conclusively answered. if you ask most people if they think its a fraud there argument will be that if they could do it in the 1960’s then why not now. the simple answer is money it would cost millions to do it today, if man did land on the moon then that’s one for us.

  • mike

    I knew the 9/11 conspiracy would occur.
    There is a second one to it though. I found this out on youtube.
    Some people think that the government not only allowed the attack to happen, but staged it themselves with missiles disguised at planes. Some videos also shown internal explosions that might have helped.

  • Anon

    mike, (316)

    “… with missiles disguised at planes.”

    Hmmmm. Seems like you wouldn’t have too much trouble in a democracy fabricating missiles to look like passenger aircraft and keeping that a perfect secret for ever. Piece of cake.

  • treyziiboii

    i completely agree with the moon landing. If they did go there why havent the been since. Yet i am not doubting the possibility of people going

  • Crimanon

    Treyziiboii: think about the logistics of using the shuttles for a moon landing. With the rockets you just fling the thing at the moon. Using a shuttle requires rockets, runways, more rockets, more fuel than a single use rocket, food, scrubbers, More equipment that the first time.

    After Challenger and Explorer would You want to take a shuttle to the moon?

  • Morgan

    Great article, and comments, nice to see peoples views. Im very opened minded and will listen to any thing and make my own mind up. The evidence for 9/11 is over whelming, but then with so many people picking the finest details apart its going to be.
    The only one i feel you have missed Is Tupacs Death. Y has this not been touched apon?

  • matbar

    just throwing this out there if you watch the zaprooter film you can see kennedy’s entire body flung back as his head explodes obviose right… well for those of you who dident know this the book depository building is located at a backward angle to the motercade when kennedy was shot. so kennedy going backwards as a bullet hits him from behind that makes no sence. and it breaks the first law of theral dinamics, “for ecery action there is an equal but opposite reaction. and besides oswalts dead why would he get killed of so quickly if he was the sole shooter. ruby dident kill him because he felt bad for jackie no he killed him so that the police wouldent be looking for some one else to blame the murder. oswalt was just a scapgoat.

  • kirstie viola

    i think one that shoud be on the list is the theory that the holocaust never happened. can you believe some people actually believe that??!! it’s interesting…

  • Paro

    My favourite conspiracy theory ever is the “Paul is Dead” theory…Stating that Paul McCartney died in a car crash in 1967 and was replaced by a bloke called Ed. Classic

  • hookupjjj

    How about conspiracy theory on Obama .The Republicans wanted Obama to win the election,how else can we go to war against Iran , Syria and most of the middle east region.We have the technology , firepower & Air superiority ,but you need ground troops and the GOP knew if any one else was elected they would not have the support of the American people.A vast majority of the people voted for Obama and will support him for what ever his decisions will be…welcome to the next WW3

  • Parker

    Ah i was just thinking that today.. but for different reasons…

    i was thinking what if the republicans found out that McCain had a fatal cancer right before the election… That there was a possibility he would be dying during his years in Office. I think Sarah Palin is a great person but… Not a leading person for this country.. I am sure he would have had a chance if he chose Tim to be his running mate.. Just my thought.

  • Yessur

    Hey, hookupjjj, my guess is that you are an American by the asinine comments. “We have the technology , firepower & Air superiority” LOLOL The US Military can’t even defeat a little country like Afghanistan. It can’t defeat Iraq. Name the last war the US won. Not Afghanistan. Not Iraq. Not the War on Terror. Not the War on Drugs. Not the War on Poverty. Not Vietnam. Not Korea. Wow! That’s some great “superiority”.

  • The truth


    And before you get all huffy about it. I’m a big fan of Kurt, and an strong supporter of marijuana legalization. I just have a better perspective than others of my age.


    Who cares if there are weak people in this world, past,present or in the future who only think about how they can control people.
    Seriously think… Yes, i do not believe that any religious today is right, not even the slightest.
    People may agree with me and say there is no GOD.
    God is a word made for religous nutters.
    Just live your life to the best you can, either your a syphco who needs to kill people for some reason only known to themseleves or live a life that is devoted to respecting every creature and living thing you see before you today, or just like most people do in this world today which mixes with both, obviously without the killing lol…
    Because there is something after death, who knows what it is. NO ONE but there is something that is a guarrente.

    Maybe it isnt what weve been told to believe in but if you think really hard about it something is waitinf for every one of us.
    Big bangs dont just appear out of thin air you know

  • shadow

    This thread has deteriorated into a complete loss of anything. The comments I have just read make no sense and deserve to be lost into oblivion.

  • Hmm

    Humans are humans,
    Personaly I don’t give a crap about any of these subjects, and they shouldn’t matter to anybody. And why should they? It’s funny if anything. So what if two towers fell down in new York..diddums. So what if people did or didn’t go to the moon? So what a bunch of idiots got assasinated, good for the people who did it, it’s only a bit of harmless fun, all of these theorys are.. Just other humans putting a bit of action packed aventure into our boring lives. Now I’m not saying people getting killed is bad, but it’s not like we don’t breed like rabits anyway.. As for area 51 and aliens?? You gussed it! So what????!!! Does it matter!!!!??? Nothing on this earth matters apart from our bodily needs I.e taking a piss and eating sleeping etc. Hmm we are weird folks lmao

  • josh

    my friend and i were talking about conspiracy theories and how scary some of them were, i.e. 2012 is the apocolyse equivilant. from reading up on theories on 2012 he thought up one of his own which helps further prove that this may be true. There have been cases seen in the news that honey bees are disappearing, in several ways this is not good anyway, but he found that Albert Einstein once said that when honey bees begin to disappear that the world has approximately 4 years to resolve its self or the world will fall apart. the most reported cases of missing bees was in the 2008 and 4 years on takes us to 2012.

    I found that quite scary after all i had heard about conspiracy theories of 2012

  • johnny boy

    does any1 wonder wether in movies such as national treasure that anything like that actually exists or even the “presidents book” with the usa’s biggest secrets are kept for presidents only

  • Will Samuel

    Global warming is Natural and happens 1s every few thousand years eg the iceage it just this time we have sped it up with gasses

  • PC

    Global Warming is Natural. What were doing IS NOT global warming? What were doing is releasing CO2 into the atmosphere causing the greenhouse effect.

    Global temperatures do go up and down but there is no currant phenomena that is causing temperature to go up dramatically.

    Besides What on earth could anyone get from pretending the world is getting hotter so we have to develop new technology and cars. We NEED to do that anyway.

  • Kate

    Conspiracy stories are many. But this recent one is truely astounding. It was revealed recently by two retired CIA agents on condition of anonymity. It reveals a clandestine experiment conducted by the CIA on human subjects both US nationals and foreigners.


    The loss of a small 47 gm ancient Hindu brass-like metal idol of extreme antiquity called the Kalpa Vigraha has caused the American Central Intelligence Agency considerable anxiety. This unusual disclosure was made recently by a retired CIA agent on condition of absolute anonymity.

    Firstly, what was the importance of this idol; what was the CIA doing with an ancient Hindu relic; and why the angst?

    The story begins almost half a century ago. A heavy chest containing the idol was reportedly given to CIA officials for safekeeping at Lo Monthang (called “Mustang” in CIA files) by a Tibetan monk accompanied by Khampa bodyguards sometime in 1959-60. The monk apparently related to the CIA officials the importance of the chest and its contents. A curious CIA official meticulously wrote down the details of what the Buddhist monk told them about the chest and its contents. Why he thought it important to record the Buddhist monk’s story is anybody’s guess. But it also appears that the Americans were initially not quite impressed with the quaint values attached to objects of Oriental worship at that time when their priority was conducting a guerrilla war against the Chinese forces advancing into Tibet.

    In the same week that the CIA officials received the chest a skirmish erupted with Chinese forces in which the Tibetan monk and his guards were killed. The CIA officials not knowing what to make of the curious chest loaded it onto an aircraft and had it sent to a secret airbase in India, later transporting it to Camp Hale, a now-abandoned Army base near Vail, Colorado. A few weeks later the chest wound up at a CIA store-room in Washington DC labeled “ST Circus Mustang-0183”.

    Many months would elapse before someone in the CIA decided to take an interest in the chest and its contents. A strange manuscript found inside and the unusually age-worn chest coupled with its noticeably unique design prompted them to conduct a radiocarbon test of the timber with which the chest was made. The results given to them by the University of California Radiation Laboratory, Berkeley astounded the CIA officials. The antiquity of the worn-out wooden chest and the idol was mind-boggling to say the least. It did not belong to this “yuga” or epoch on the Hindu time scale just as the monk had claimed. That is to say, it belonged to a period called the Dwapara yuga, making it the oldest human artifact in existence. Radiocarbon (C14) dating conducted by the University of California Radiation Laboratory on the heavy 9-inch thick timber sides and lid of the chest in which it was discovered arrived at readings that indicated a period around 26,450 BCE. That would make it over 28,450 years old today, and about 23,300 years older than the legendary Hindu Kurukshetra war. The idol was also tested by experts who concluded that it was the oldest Hindu idol in existence. None of the known ancient excavated civilizations of history – Egyptian, Mesopotamian or Indus Valley existed before 6000 years ago.

    The Kalpa Vigraha idol was reportedly found placed inside this heavy metal-lined wooden chest with a socket-and-pivot hinged lid and an ancient loop-and-rod lock assembly. The chest itself presented a curiosity, as the space within the box was barely 8 X 8 X 8 inches while the timber pieces used to construct all its five sides was about 8 inches thick each! The timber of which the lid of the chest was made also measured about 6 inches in thickness. The teak-wood timber was further protected by a 1-inch thick bronze-like alloy plate on all sides which despite severe external corrosion had preserved the teak-wood of the box to a fair extent. The metal plate appears to have been riveted into the teakwood with nails of some similar metal alloy. Though many rivets were missing, the metal casing held well. The appearance of the chest suggested that it might have lain buried for a considerable period of time, though scrape-marks from attempts made to clean the corrosion on the outside were visible.

    Corrosive salts or dampness had not crept into the chest despite its age, though some degree of natural oxidation and decay was noticed in the contents of the chest which included a manuscript written on wooden slats and the small brass-like crude metal idol. The old pre-Rigvedic Sanskrit-type manuscript was translated by the CIA with difficulty. In fact it reportedly took two long years to decipher, employing experts including some Indian and Nepalese. They concluded that the language belonged to the proto-historic period of Hinduism when it was thought no language existed and that the Vedas were being passed down orally. The manuscript appeared to be something akin to Sanskrit, but not quite anything any archaeologist or historian had ever encountered before. The manuscript mentioned the name of the idol – “kalpa maha-ayusham rasayana vigraha” abbreviated in CIA files to “Kalpa Vigraha.”

    The Kalpa Vigraha is a small crude brass idol weighing about 47.10 gms depicting a deity resembling the Hindu god Shiva kneeling or seated on one knee, a serpant’s hood forming a canopy above the head of the idol. In the right hand of the figure was a discus or circular weapon, perhaps the “sudharshan-chakra” of Hindu mythology. Around its neck was a string of beads. The metal formed three “loops” on one side caused by the snake, an arm holding a conch-shell and the discus. It measured about 5.3 cm tall and about 4.7 cms wide, with an oval base 2.5 cms long and 1.7 cms wide. There was no doubt the small statue was of some extreme importance to have been preserved with such care in a chest of such strength and durability.

    But following the translation of the manuscript, events surrounding the Kalpa Vigraha suddenly took a mysterious turn. The UCRL’s records were impounded by the CIA and a shroud of silence was cast over all matters regarding the chest and the Hindu idol. “ST Circus Mustang-0183” was removed from the inventory at the CIA storehouse records, and the whole episode was swept under the carpet for some inexplicable reason.

    However, the unnamed source, a retired CIA agent, revealed recently that based on the text of the manuscript found along with the idol, a series of top-secret experiments were conducted by the CIA on unsuspecting human subjects in the United States and elsewhere in the world. According to this unnamed source in Langley, Virginia, an “inner-circle” of the CIA dedicated most of their time in the early 1960s conducting experiments based on the ancient manuscript, and the Kalpa Vigraha idol itself played the most important role in this bizarre research.

    The source, who was partially involved in the research, explained that one of the experiments was particularly intriguing. It required a human subject to consume a tumbler of water each day for 3 days. This water was earlier “charged” by CIA agents by simply placing the idol in a large copper vessel containing drinking water for nine days before the human subject was required to drink it. What results the “inner circle” officials expected to see by this innocuous experiment was not known to anybody at that time, but top CIA officials evinced great interest in it. The “charged” water was also sent to various laboratories under heavy security and all reports and documents received from the labs were sent directly to the CIA director, John McCone.

    The unnamed source also recalled that during this period a number of packages containing literature on homeopathy and ayurveda were received from various parts of the globe and often circulated in the department with markings and footnotes. Barring perhaps the inner-circle, nobody quite knew what this was all about.

    A month later, the source was asked to head a nine-member team consisting mostly of women whose sole task was to feed this water to unsuspecting citizens in the US. They called themselves the “Watering Team”. It was not known to the Watering Team whether the subjects to whom the water was to be fed were randomly chosen by the inner-circle officials, but what was certain as the team met up with the target recipients of the water was that they were of all ages- some in their teens, some even past their middle-ages and many being above the age of sixty or sixty-five at least. Detail instructions were handed out as to how they were to go about the “watering”. What was also apparent to the team later was that all the subjects were born Americans, both black and white from various walks of life. Many were African American women. The “watering” had to be done without the subjects’ knowledge by befriending them or by looking for innocuous opportunities to get them to consume a glass of water for three consecutive days in a row. The team often failed, with some other members of the target recipient’s family ending up drinking the water inadvertently. The CIA required them to report such slips also.

    This went on for a few months. Some of the human test subjects chosen were in far-flung states and in remote towns and cities of the United States. Apparently the CIA had some system in place to monitor their subjects for whatever results they expected as an outcome of the experiment for the “Watering Team” was not required to hang around once the subject had consumed the water over three days. “Ease-out of the acquaintance without raising any questions”, they were told.

    For the purpose of keeping a personal record, the source also made notes in his private diary – the names and addresses of the various recipients his team was required to befriend to feed the water. Maintenance of any such record was forbidden by the agency, nevertheless many agents did it and the CIA was aware of it.

    The source recalls with amusement that during this time the agents in the CIA who were in-the-know about these experiments, including the members of their own “Watering Team” often doubted and double-checked their own drinking water, often leaving the office to fetch drinking water for themselves or settling for coffee, juice or soft-drinks. “It was a period of discomfort and uneasiness for reasons we could not fathom,” the source recalls.

    Soon after the “watering” experiments were completed, the assignment was abruptly called off. In the subsequent years that the unnamed CIA official served in the agency not much was heard or spoken of this experiment, except as a joke. The inner-circle members were deployed to more pressing assignments around the US and the world. The reason for the bizarre experiment was never revealed, neither were the results ever known. Over time it was quite forgotten, and treated as some of the many idiosyncrasies that the CIA indulged in during the cold war years.

    A recent long-distant telephone call from another state in the US on the morning of December 2008 changed all that. The source, now long retired, with great-grandchildren playing around him, was unexpectedly informed one night by another retired agent of the CIA that the Kalpa Vigraha was “missing”. The agent who made the call was once a member of the “inner circle”, a man who knew what the experiments conducted in the early 1960s was all about.

    As he listened, it took our long-retired CIA source some time to remember what “idol” was being referred to, as today he was more familiar with the popular “American Idol” music competition program he enjoyed watching on TV with his grand and great-grand children.

    “The Hindu idol, my dear Mac (name changed), don’t you remember, the one they called the Kalpa Vigraha?” the voice said. “Don’t you remember the experiments that put you in charge of the Watering Team assignment? I’m only calling you this morning because I knew for certain that you would be alive and well to hear this news.”

    “Ken (name changed), you call me today, thirty-two years after my retirement to tell me about an old forgettable idol that never made sense to any of us! So, what if it’s missing? What’s the big deal here, Ken?”

    The Big Deal
    The voice at the other end of the phone had an astounding story to tell.
    The inside story of CIA experiments involving the Kalpa Vigraha as revealed to Mac was stuff that would rival even the fictional and immensely popular X-File TV serial.

    Ken the CIA agent who made the telephone call to his former colleague on the morning of December 2008 and who was once a member of the inner-circle was a microbiologist with expertise in immunotherapy when he was initially recruited by the CIA in 1946 to analyze “Lebensborn” data confiscated from Nazi Germany after the downfall of Hitler. Ken was only 38 years old then. That makes him about 100 years old when he made the telephone call to his former CIA colleague Mac (our source), aged 98 years on the morning of December, 2008.

    Ken, the inner-circle CIA agent reminded Mac of the many subjects the CIA had targeted for consumption of the “charged” Kalpa Vigraha water back in 1960-61, many of whom had been fed the water personally by Mac. Mac could recall many of the names and even crossed-checked in his own diary to confirm and refresh his memory of all the people he had surreptitiously befriended to feed the “charged” water.

    A week later Ken and Mac met to discuss the matter. They went over the list in Mac’s old diary, and for the first time in decades, recalled the events of more than 45 years ago. Ken updated Mac with facts of the CIA’s Kalpa Vigraha experiments that were not revealed to him earlier. For the first time Mac learnt that there had been other “watering teams” operating in many parts of the world in the early 1960s. Ken had brought with him a much longer list, showing corrections made over time to the names of female test-subjects who had married or remarried and stopped using their maiden names. The CIA had been keeping a meticulous watch (“kalpa-tag”, they called it) over almost all test-subjects around the globe, and monitoring their lives in secrecy. There was not much to monitor, really. CIA’s kalpa vigraha cell’s job was, and still continues to be, to report back if a recipient of the charged water (wherever he or she was in the world) was alive. The Reason? All persons subjected to the Kalpa Vigraha experiment were expected to live very long lives, past the age of 100 at least, perhaps crossing 110 and even reaching the age of 120. Of course this does not include those who died unnatural deaths in road-accidents or other mishaps, murder, suicide, accidental poisoning, or dying in conflicts or war.

    Mac updated and corrected the names on his own list, of people whom his own Watering Team had subjected to the experiments in the United States. In some cases he replaced the word “negro” to “African American” as it is accepted today. Ken would not have him keep the names on the larger list of people world-wide. It was irrelevant, he said.

    Ken also revealed to him that he had learnt many years after he had retired that both he and Mac apart from a dozen other CIA staff had also been unsuspectingly subject to the Kalpa Vigraha experiment before being allotted their watering team assignment. Both men shed tears following this disclosure. It was deeply disturbing now despite the loyalty with which they had served the agency.

    Mac, our source, the now-retired CIA agent who led the Watering Team in the United States chose to disclose his own list to us. But before he did that he removed the names of those test subjects he believed were still alive, as he felt he would not be able to “face” any of them if they were to ever appear on TV against the CIA when the list was published by us.

    The list of those who had died comprised of the following names. What is astonishing is that all the persons whose names Mac gave us had lived to an age of above 110 before they died, some even reaching the age of 115 and above.-

    Fannie Thomas, Sarah Knauss, Mary McKinney, Lucy Hannah, Margaret Skeete, Elizabeth Bolden, Maggie Barnes, Edna Parker, Bettie Wilson, Susie Gibson, Zora Wriggle, Maude Davis Farris-Luse, Delina Filkins, Mathew Beard, Carrie Lazenby, Myrtle Dorsey, Elena Slough, Wilhelmina Geringer Kott, Clara Huhn, Ettie Mae Greene, Emma Verona Johnston, Odie Mathews, Florence Knapp, Irene Frank, Emma Tillman, Grace Thaxton, Minnie Ward, Arbella Ewing, Catherine Hagel, Fred H. Hale, Sr., Bertha Fry, Mae Harrington, Agatha Mitchell, Moses Hardy, Corinne Dixon Taylor, Bettie Chatmon, Mary Christian, Johnson Parks, Mary Parr, John Ingram McMorran, Mary Electa Nobel Bidwell, Martha Graham, Gladys Swetland, Mary Randall, Mary Anna Boone.

    Four names, that of Ruth Golonka, Willie Lee Morgan, Steven Martin and Bert Jenkins were found to be of people who had died “accidentally”. Ruth Golonka, died of a car accident, Willie Lee Morgan was murdered. Both Steven Martin and Bert Jenkins had died in Vietnam.

    The Loss of the Kalpa Vigraha

    (The following information was sought and received by us from another source (No. 2) still working in the CIA)

    The Kalpa Vigraha, the CIA store-room inventory item labeled “ST Circus Mustang-0183”, was not seen or heard of for many decades. An audit conducted in 1996 revealed that the heavy metal-lined chest was very much in the store, but that the idol and the manuscript had been “misplaced”. In a search conducted over many weeks, spanning many states, and enquiries made from many retired personnel, the agency was able to trace the manuscript from the house of a microbiologist the CIA had many years ago hired for analysis of the “charged” kalpa vigraha water. The manuscript was found but the whereabouts of the Kalpa Vigraha is still a mystery. Following the discovery of the manuscript, a spate of mysterious deaths of microbiologists followed. The media and the internet were rife with conspiracy theories on the death of the rather alarming number of them, but few laid suspicion on the CIA until our above-mentioned source No 2, a serving agent of the CIA spilled the beans. However hard it will be to pin all these inexplicable deaths on the CIA, the coincidences are equally hard to rule out if source No.2 is honest regarding the facts. We would not like to go into the details revealed to us and would rather allow police and the investigation agencies to arrive at their own conclusions with regard to the deaths.

    According to our CIA source no.2 the Kalpa Vigraha has since been smuggled out of the United States to India. The latest information received at the CIA headquarters is that it lies in the possession of some software employees or IT professionals at Hyderabad, in the Indian state of Andhra Pradesh. For the first time in 48 years, photographs of the Kalpa Vigraha, depicting the idol from four different directions were circulated around the world by the CIA with an enormous cash reward for its recovery.

  • UmmmNo

    Human caused Global Warming is real.

    It isn’t even a debate, it is just fact.

    Pseudoscientists like to get their names in the papers by saying it is all fake. But they are just nutters.

    Then people read about it, know nothing of the real science, and spout off about another “conspiracy!”

  • al123


  • John

    Diana was killed by a Jewish who came from Juraselum.

  • crockett

    a patriot should always be ready to defend his country from its government.although it is still fairly new, the stealth bomber was designed in the 1960s, the U.S.military is so advanced (and dangerous) I would not put anything pass them.That is not really a bad thing alot of us sleep peacefully at night under the blanket of protection that the military not try to understand them but rather enjoy your freedom….

  • beth

    hmmm….im not sure about any … i just dont know what to believe !!!! :$

  • beth


  • beth

    is this site american?? cos is sorta not 11.34 in England! its 6.35 pm !!!! :o

  • Wally

    Anything is possible. The devil is the greatest liar there is. As individuals one must look after one’s self as top priority.

  • Adam

    The Flat Earth Society
    9/11 might have been an inside job
    2012=End of World

  • Adam

    and to comment on something someone else said above,

    “A vast majority of the people voted for Obama and will support him for what ever his decisions will be…welcome to the next WW3”

    WW3 will most likely be a war in the Middle-East. All or most of the Arab nations will attack Israel, and America and its allies will try to help out Israel. There is also a good chance of Nuclear warfare as well in the Middle East, which would lead up to Israel’s demise or close to it. This is going to be the next World War. And then, there are always possibilities of attacks on America while this is all happening.
    It’s not going to be just because Obama became president and everyone will follow his decisions.

  • Adam

    And to add to the WW3 theory, North Korea would go to war with South Korea and a war would break out between China and America

  • joe

    Hmm that one about 6 posts up about the idol and CIA is pretty unusual, I’ve never heard it before but it sounds pretty sweet. I’m actually pretty worried about the Einstein and bee theory – despite what people think four years really isn’t a lot of time…the idea that plants won’t survive etc is true as the vast majority need insects, like bees, to survive. As for whoever said that CO2 isn’t doing anything wrong is an idiot. Whilst CO2 is needed for plants to grow, can have a negative effect on life, and to add to that they also mentioned that more CO2 will help more plants to survive could maybe be true, if forests and jungle wasn’t being obliterated as we speak….. I like the idea – idea – not conspirocy that aliens exist, and to believe we are the only “living planet” is not only ignorant but also shows the lack of respect homosapiens have for, well, anything. In a class I’m taking we recently discussed about animal rights – how some people believe god put us in charge to do as we please. Bollocks. To even consider that possibility is to undermine religion – if we are made in gods image, and god is the almighty, then be as greedy and ignorant as the human race is is just wrong. The concept that,not god, but a higher being I could believe, and since you have to be dead to join god then no one will know this for certain unless this “higher being” reveals itself in some way. And not just taking pot-shots at the Americans here but honestly, the only word I can think of for some of you is retarded. Global warming doesn’t exist? You have proof of that? A few degrees celsius won’t make a difference? You’re mistaken. There is solid, definite proof that it exists, a big supporter is you’re own al gore. I know he isn’t particularly popular to you but he is no doubt smarter than the average muscle headed “jock” if you prefer American terms. Anyone with half a brain cell that doesn’t use it to wonder about how often they can get laid can work it out. Ecosystems have already been destroyed there is solid proof of this for example I watched a programme, oh, maybe about 6 months ago about a species of jellyfish that are nearly extinct because of a 1 degree celsius change. Oh and to that person who lives in Alaska calling global warming shit, you should be happy to know (that’s a lie) that global warming is a general term, studies show that the I’m may slip into almost an ice age because of changes, a good example is the polar ice caps, which are definitely melting do not make an attempt to even try and condradict this, will cause a change in the earths “heating system”, if you will. This will change the currents going around Britain and could essentially cause it to freeze over. So screw to term global WARMING ok? I’m not trying to insult anyone intentionally here, just getting a rant out of my system. If people (generally Americans, sorry about pointing the finger) can only get their opinions out and around by swearing too much then you’re opinion should not be taken into account. If you cannot express youself in a non violent way then either don’t express yourself at all or as you will probably tell me, “fuck off”.

  • joe

    Sorry about spelling and gramar mistakes, I was so annoyed that I wrote that on my iPod :P……..the I’m that’s been put in by my iPod when I was talking about the term global warming should be UK, for some reason my iPod decided I was trying to say I’m and I didn’t notice

  • Inside Job 9/11

    Yeah I seriously doubt the aliens, but the JFK and 9/11 stuff is definatly true

  • Infinitysnake

    i just recently discovered this site, and i first want to say how impressed i am with the composition of the list of the top 10 conspiracy theories. even though i just discovered this today, i have been reading the comments posted by the users and i am and profoundly interested by the depth and intelligence of the arguments for the the entire array of concepts. on a personal level,the 2 conspiracy theories that most interest me are the JFK assassination and the 9/11 conspiracy theory. i do not have a valid explanation for my fascination with these two cases, other than the fact that such horrific acts could have possibly been perpetrated by the us government. i am still in deep exploration of minutia of both of these cases but i do not believe that jfk was murdered by one man, and i do not necessarily believe that the attack on the twin towers was carried out by muslim extremists or that it occurred without the us government knowing. the part of the jfk assassination that most fascinates me is the 3 tramp. they were among 12 suspects taken into police custody immediately after the shooting. the records, including identity, fingerprints, statements and all other information were either not recorded or “lost” by the dallas police. i have a difficult time believing that with the significant sums of money that the government puts toward national security, that such incompetence could have occurred without notice or consequence. i feel the same way about the hijacking of the 2 planes. box cutters or any types of blades should not have been permitted to be brought aboard the airplane. also, once the plane had flown off course, and radio contact had been eliminated, the us government would not have noticed or taken action. this is what is called a false flag operation (when a government is aware of a terrorist act or crime and permits is to take place anyway ((for the twisted agendas of politicians)). despite what is said, this is no longer a country of the people, by the people or for the people. it is a select group of power hungry tyrants who use this nation as a vehicle to carry out their own agendas. that is all i have to say for now, but i strongly request that anyone who reads this and has any corrections or any problems with what i say please speak up so that i may polish and refine my knowledge of the 2 mentioned subjects.

  • Anon

    Infinitysnake, (349),

    1) First Think in terms of numbers.

    An asassination involving one or a very few dedicated pros who can be relied on to keep their traps shut indefinitely. Practically possible, although if successful there will only be a hazy trail of circumstantial evidence.

    A major cover-up in a functional democracy involving several aircraft; a slice of internal air traffic control; a fair segment of the national secret services; and the death of thousands of fellow citizens. Even if you were only one of those traffic controllers involved, wouldn’t you be so horrified you’d send anonymous notes to the major media and anyone else you thought ought to know? Or do you think the entire free-enterprise press and public communications of the U.S. could be gagged? Watergate was a minute fleabite in scale by comparison, and they couldn’t hold that in.

    2) Incompetence on the part of national securoty of modern states? By the same token, anyone who argues 9/11 or Pearl Harbour were conspiracies should accept the same for Operation Overlord (D-Day), Operation Barbarossa (German Invasion of Russia) and the German invasion of France in 1940. All of these took nations devastatingly by surprise, and nations that were actually expecting to be attacked too. Indeed Germany and Russia were police states with intense internal security and networks of external spies. Yet all were totally fooled initially by massive enemy attacks.

    Detecting terrorists. Probably no state is more alert to terrorism than Israel. Who would be ridiculous enough to label Israeili security incompetent? Yet until their wall, did that stop suicide attacks even within Israel? The truth is that in democracies at least, terrorists seek out new weak points where no reasonable person has the slightest inkling they are in danger. So protection is minimal or non-existent. Think what total protection of every possible point and method of terrorist attack would involve. Then calculate the manpower needed to enforce the security, the cost to the state (you and me), and the massive inconvenience and time loss to us all.

    If you analyse the history of terrorist attacks, I think you’ll find they tend to begin with a shock surprise. After that the authorities react. In some cases that may be efficient enough. In others the attacks may continue, or even increase for a period. But always, eventually, the security authorities seal a given weak point and terror seeks out a fresh one.

    3) Have you travelled by air with reasonable frequency before and after 9/11, as I have? It doesn’t sound like it.
    So I invite you to consider the following flight check-in BEFORE:

    “Now, ladies and gentlemen, the following has never happened, but it might. As you know, we’ve implimented strict security against bombs, firearms, hunting knives and the like. So suppose a group of passengers enters the aircraft with plastic knives. They overpower the cabin staff, kill our pilots, take over the controls and fly into buildings in the middle of a big city. Sounds crazy? Well, that’s your opinion. We can’t take any chances. Therefore we are going to ask you to check in an hour earlier. We will be putting all your hand luggage through X-ray and taking out any small pen-knives, knitting needles, paper knives, razor blades and indeed anything that might be used as a weapon. Oh, and yes, and all liquids of any kind, including medicines, perfumes, soft drinnks. After all, they might contain acid to throw in the faces of our crew, mightn’t they? And to make our security checks easier we are cutting right down on the hand-luggage you are allowed. Everything will be packed away and given back to you after the journey. Have a nice flight.”

    So you think you could have imposed that check BEFORE 9/11? Hahaha. And don’t even begin to think about internal flights. I was talking international flights there.

    OK, switch to AFTER 9/11. My personal experience only. We went through all the above rigmarole. It was tiresome, inconvenient and took ages, but everyone accepted it philosophically because of what had happened and it being in our own best interests. After we had passed all the checks, a guy returned to security, dug into his hand-luggage and produced something that could easily have been used as a weapon. (I’m not going to say what it was.) “Isn’t this dangerous?” “Yes, sir, but our machines can’t detect it and fortunately very few people carry them. But thank you all the same, we’ll look after it for you and give it back when you land.” Reassuring?

    Apropos. If you think you live in a police state, you should maybe try a real one.

  • Jeff Marzano

    That’s a good article. It hits on a lot of the most famous conspiracies.

    I believe that some of those are valid conspiracies but not all of them.

    I believe that president Kennedy was killed as the result of a conspiracy as was his brother Robert and maybe Martin Luther King. He wanted to pull out of Viet Nam. That was the main reason. Also Lyin’ Lyndon Johnson had become an embaressment to JFK because his corrupt and murderous past from Texas was beginning to surface.

    Immediately after the assassination they had an Oswald look alike murder a police officer in cold blood, thinking that corrupt police in Dallas would then shoot Oswald on sight. But that didn’t happen for some reason. When Oswald was taken into custody alive this created a major problem for the conspirators. They had to silence Oswald at all costs. If Oswald was alive after being shot but Ruby right at police headquarters we can be sure he would have never left the hospital.

    JFK engineered the hoax of the moon landings. Little did he realize that he himself would become the centerpiece of the greatest conspiray of them all.

    The Roswell flying saucer story and the Philadelphia Experiment are also real I believe.

    I wouldn’t doubt that people in high places knew Pearl Harbor was coming. Al Bielek, who claims to have been transported from 1942 to 1982 during The Philadelphia Experiment, stated that he was told Pearl would be attacked.

    The follow on project to The Philadelphia Experiment was The Montauk Project. Preston Nichols claims that he began to feel very tired while working at Montauk. Eventually he figured out that they had him working two different jobs but they were blocking the memories of the second project from his mind.

    The Philadelphia Experiment and The Montauk Project are satanic I believe. The sinister Aleister Crowley appears on the cover of one of the Montauk books.

    In a way the 12/21/12 date and the Mayan Doomsday prophecy is like a conspiracy. This is based on astrology and the signs of the zodiac. The 12/21/12 date is the first day of a new age on earth, the age of Aquarius the Water Bearer.

    Jeff Marzano

    The Men Who Killed Kennedy ~ Hilary Minster, Robert J. Groden, L. Fletcher Prouty, and Harold Weisberg (DVD – 2002)

    The Truth About The Philadelphia Experiment ~ Philadelphia Experiment Survivors (DVD – 2007)

  • ash1000

    as for 9/11 who really profited from the attacks
    george bush has become one of the most hated person in the world even in his own country
    the us lost so many men and more importantly money (and we all know how much us hates losing money) in the war on that god forsaken land
    and the taliban which was supposed to be one of the conspirators is now stronger than ever

    let us now assume that the conspiracy theory is correct
    that its impossible to hijack a plane in us without inside help
    well actually it is much more easy than u think because remember in mid air u only have to create an illusion that u have a weapon and fear will do the rest

  • california life

    all these conspiracy theerories are probably all true i know for sure 9/11 was definetly an inside job….that was just a reason to go to war with iraq….. u people need to stop being brain washed, the government does not care about no one…and i was reading about a comment someone said about hiv and aids being made by our government… well that is true… its a man made diesease… it was made for minoritys in the 70s but when they had interacial dating it backfired…

  • Toffs

    911 most deffinetly inside job

  • joe

    i dont want to cause an argument here, but people are mainly arguing the 9/11 conspiracy. There ARE others you know – eg Princess Diana and Fatima…

  • Jonathan

    If Roosevelt knew about the attacks beforehand why didn’t he defend against it? Losing the Pacific fleet was a mojor blow to the Americans and could have cost them the war. also a failed attack would have served the purpose of joining the war just as well as a successful one, only without losing a large portion of the american fleet.
    The same could also be said of 9/11 if they knew about the attacks why not put strict security in place to shoot the planes down? that way they would still have the reason to go to war but they would also still have the towers and the illusion of invincibility.

  • Jonathan

    The question you should be asking is: did America lie/exaggerate their intelligence on the threat posed by “weapons of mass destruction” just to get foreign support for the Iraq war?

  • K-Dawg

    i believe that every single one of the theories u listed has a great possibility to be true.

  • K-Dawg

    9/11 and Pearl Harbor are definately true though.
    1. A building wouldn’t collapse all at once; also y were there cameras filming the plane hit the building if they didn’t kno it was going to happen.
    2. Y would every ship in the U.S Navy except for a few be stationed in one single port. Any idiot would kno it made them totally and utterly vulnerable.

  • Crocodilius

    Suggestion for the list if you wish to extend it: The Tonkin Incident which allowed Lyndon Johnson to increse involvement in Vietnam rapidly.

  • unkcown

    the moon landing is fake. if you take a telescope and look at the moon you wil not see a flag or the cars they used,,, if you look on gooogle for a view of american flag on the moon from earth u will not find one

  • neddie

    My goodness. What a load of old cobblers.

  • Crimanon

    Unkcown: I bet you can’t find my car on google maps either. One, you don’t know where it is. Two, you have no clue what it looks like. Three, there is only so much resolution that you can get that far away. Four, You’re a Moron without a good source porn. Go Away!

  • Crimanon

    FREDDY: Is that a complaint or an endorsement?

  • Tirza

    9/11… has anyone ever heard of Zeitgeist? Or America Freedom to Fascism? You guys should really check it out… it will definitely open your eyes about what really runs our country, if not that it will give you a new light

  • Izzy

    I cannot believe people are still perpetuating the idea that global warming is a fraud. Seriously.

    I also cannot believe I sat here and read the ENTIRE block of comments…

  • Pat(16)

    the fact that they are jews would be irrelevant.
    but theres plenty of evidence otherwise..illuminati? federal reserve?
    hmm would that be what you mean?

  • porkido

    People believe some key-RAZY shit…

  • porkido

    And some of your readers are racist douchebags.

  • joe

    talking ’bout me here? (i was having a rant, all better now:) )

  • Leigh

    Great list! I’ve read a lot about the theory surrounding 9/11 and it sure makes you stop & think.

  • Jack

    Found the more modern articles on conspiracy theories more interesting, but nice article.

  • InsideJob911

    1) Undeniably true.All evidence points to a conspiracy of some depth, not just standard incompetence. Clincher was the evidence of bombs in WTC7
    2)Probably just a high tech weather baloon, or a top secret military prototype. I do not believe in aliens. Clincher was the fact the nazi scientists (who were known to be developing flying saucers) were sent to Roswell New Mexico to continue work.
    3)Probably true. The clincher for me was the movie JFK 2, The Bush Connection. Not the lousy Oliver Stone movie. Clincher in evidence was the exit wound location
    4) Probably true. I haave yet to see evidence that I haven’t seen debunked. Clincher was the obvious lies Gore was spinning in Inconvenient truth
    5)Probably untrue. I have not seen hard evidence pointing to murder
    6) Disinfo. Jews are normal people, Zionists are not. Zionists are not true jews (
    7)Completely untrue. We have the laser on the moon don’t we?
    8)possible. There are a number of coincidences but these can be explained.
    9)Never heard of it (and I know a lot of theories. Why is there no Oklahoma city? New World Order? Hardly top ten
    10) Haven’t researched much, probably untrue

  • maulder

    Talking about rosewll and area 51. Dont anyone think that the sudden explosion in computer technology from the mid 70’s onwards could be connected to the possible capture of the ufo in roswell??

  • Ursula

    I think you should have included the Paul McCartney is Dead conspiracy

  • Cybogen

    Its not likely that 9-11 was caused solely by terrorists operating without our governments knowledge and letting it go on still. This could have been the fuse to start the need for the so called ‘Patriot Act” to invade people homes, internet searches wireless phone calls, wire tapping and so on. All this to say we are just trying to weed out inside terrorists groups. hence the 9-11 attacks was enough to make americans think “Well the goverment is looking out for our best interests”

  • ctufc


  • quotes from histories past

    guys seriously does any of this matter? If so seeming as you have knowledge why arnt you acting upon it, theres a quote im searching for “all it takes for evil to succeed is good men to do nothing?” although unsure of the wording you get my point? I cant be bothered scanning to the above mentioned post but really all that matters is the vital bodily functions and the further passing of our genes. But i digress you all seem to have insight into many of these conspiracies but sit idle so one must assume these conspiracies dont bother you or you may have some regrets you wont let your childrens children know of and wont rest easy on the way to the final sleep, any how im off to get drunk and procreate

  • quotes from histories past

    Oh regarding the list
    1: Possible, its been shown in history goverments are not above inducing/ignoring warnings or the actual event, secondly it does not take that many people really in the know to achieve, thirdly in proportion to the population of the US the amount of people killed was miniscule.

    2: Possible but i have no proof either way.

    3: Possible in my mind only because of the law regarding the federal reserve and creation of money which jfk proposed.

    4: To me i lean towards fraud/irrelevance , my geological history may not be the best but i believe the general climate of earth leans towards more extended cold periods than warm? Even if man made warming is true i find it much more pleasant than an ice age, + carbon good for plants (we need food?). So low lying areas may flood couldnt we just move inland?

    5: Irrelevant, she did nothing productive for mankind bar lend her name to a few charities which is good but in the scheme of things changed nothing. Someone that mentinoned mother Teresa dying in a similar time frame to me deserves much more attention.

    6: True or not there do seem do be alot of jewish names controlling money in lots of places, lets hope theyre jewish first and Zionist second.

    7: I dont believe there was a hoax it would have been totaly exposed by now, especially by the Russians if they had the information.

    8: Who cares 50 years ago either way were here now ;)

    9: Do people still actually trust religious organizations?

    10: It does sound far fetched, but recently (past year or so) reports of the UK experimenting with this technology apparently on a successful basis in theyre trials i think the reports suggested success on stationary tanks.

  • ppsarq

    LMAO. HAHA. The list was funi bt the comments r crack up. Way 2 go man!

  • Legend and Lore

    All Right, I feel like having a Listverse Debate. I say that the US government WAS behind the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center. Who wants to take me on?

  • lostatsea1

    The sun is the cause of warming or cooling due to sunspot activity which is cyclic in nature. 200,000 tons of asbestos coated structural steel(a huge heat sink) could not have totally collapsed in less than an hour, people seen at crash site obviously survived this ‘inferno’. This is called a false flag ops.,carried out by delta force type teams who are sworn to secrecy under threat of death. These are wet ops teams. or google USSLiberty another false flag ops. There are many more..JFK wanted to kill the Federal Reserve. WTC 7 held all the Enron files as well as offices of FBI,CIA and the emergency centre for NYC..why were all these vacant? Why were the towers powered down weeks before and work crews with carts and welding gear entered while WTC workers were not allowed in and security cameras were deactivated. Why were bomb sniffing dogs removed weeks before?

  • lostatsea1 for a detailed analysis. How did a cave dwelling anarchist get hold of nano technology? Or be able to plant it in the towers? Over 700 Architects and Engineers and growing refute the NIST and FEMA explanations. I have also heard from highly placed defence individuals that know the truth. We need an independant world panel of experts to expose the truth.

  • lostatsea1
    This is not on this list..but a must watch for Americans whose children are going to inherit these Trillions of debt without oversight of where all this money went.

  • Legend and Lore

    I guess I can’t really START a debate, as many have beaten me to it, but I’m going to post up proof that the Buildings didn’t fall by planes with simple physics.

    The Towers stood at 410 meters, not including the antenna on top.

    Acceleration due to gravity is 9.81 m/s^2.
    The impact velocity of an object being dropped from 410 meters (not
    counting for wind drag), would be 89.69 m/s (200.63 mph) using the
    potential energy = kinetic energy equations (mgh = (1/2)mv^2). m=mass
    of an object (cancels out so mass is irrelevent), g = acceleration due
    to gravity, h = height of starting point, v=velocity.

    The time it would take for that object to reach the ground would be
    9.14 seconds, again (V-V0)/a where V = final velocity, and V0 =
    initial velocity, and a = acceleration (which is acceleration due to
    gravity neglecting friction.)

    Taken directly from the 9/11 comission report: “At 9:58:59, the South
    Tower collapsed in ten seconds, killing all civilians and emergency
    personnel inside, as well a number of individuals-both first
    responders and civilians-in the concourse, in the Marriott, and on
    neighboring streets. The building collapsed into itself, causing a
    ferocious windstorm and creating a massive debris cloud. The Marriott
    hotel suffered significant damage as a result of the collapse of the
    South Tower.”

    How is this possible that a building with 110 floors
    could fall in 10 seconds? a week after the collapse I read the
    article in Newsweek Magazine, they reported that each level collapsed,
    one on top of the other, like a stack of playing cards collapsing from
    the top down.

    Here is some more math that shows the media reports of the collapse
    are incorrect. on average, each floor is aout 3.72 meters, (I
    calculated this number from the height of the building to the number
    of floors in the building) Using the same equations as before I can
    calculate how long it would take for the towers to fall that way I
    find it would take about 0.87 seconds per floor, now add this up for
    each floor that fell, I will calculate from the top to the bottom, as
    it is appearant from the footage given to us, the entire building was
    in peices.. 0.87*110=95.7, count, 95.7 seconds, that’s over a minute
    and a half. Using these simple equations, mass is irrelevent, even
    though each time a floor would collapse, the weight would compound and
    the force due to acceleration would be greater on each progressive
    level. But acceleration due to gravity will still be the same, it
    doesn’t change.

    How could it be that the only destructive forces at work in the
    collapse of the towers be the airplanes? Someone somewhere had to set
    some charges in the building.

    Who would benefit from the collapse of the towers? The owners got
    billions of dollars form the insurance settlement (that was all over
    the news). The United States passed the patriot act immediately after
    the event. Why wouldn’t the owner be imprissoned if he set it up
    himself providing the 9/11 commision did their job?

  • lostatsea1

    385, Go to LV top ten excuses people use to hate America for my posts on 9/11 and links.

  • lostatsea1

    385.Legend and Lore: Thanks for the link..BTW the central core would have survived the pancake theory as the trusses would have broken the 5/8ths bolts securing them to the core.

  • johnny

    Debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories

  • Chloe!xx

    :) i found this page very amuzing and i will definitely be using this site again in the close future…a huge thanks to all involved!

  • Aaron

    There is no proof in any of these theories. Especially Jewish Domination, 9/11, and JFK. Its just hard people to grip the fact that one man so little in comparison to his victim could inflict such damage on the countries psyche, or the idea that a group of people could cause so much pain in much of the same way, and jewish domination. . . really. . . . REALLY?

  • Aaron

    Legends and Lore your equations are correct but they do not apply in the way you described.

  • Johnny

    Here are the people who had to be involved in the conspiracy:

    -The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did. Yet all of them and the people below are helping him cover up the largest mass murder in US history…

    -The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most, if not all, of them. It’s their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don’t call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers… Why? We have uncovered the myth about a gag order imposed on all fire fighters. Only 9/11 conspiracy sites say this. ONE person who sued Bush for not taking action before the event is ordered by the court not to speak to the media about the case. This is not imposing a gag order on the whole fire department as some of these sites claim. They are lying to cover up this mass murder by the government or the building owner. Why? They don’t even know…

    -The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn’t ask for an investigation. Motive? None…

    -The NYC port Authority who lost personnel. Motive?

    -All the people in the Pentagon who have not called for an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist. They did or said nothing while people supposedly trucked in airplane parts to cover the crime. Why? Again, no answer…

    -The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who would rather have investigations of the decisions which led to the terrorist getting away with this. They don’t want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it’s the money… [note: Whenever killing someone, pay off the relative. They won’t say anything.]

    -The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn’t follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like the BBC and Al Jazeera. Why? No answer here either…

    -The photographers from around the world who took pictures of the towers which clearly show bowing of the perimeter columns. These photos support the NIST hypothesis that the sagging trusses lead to the collapse. Some photos also show the core intact shortly after collapse which also not only support the NIST hypothesis but discredits the “Controlled demolition” account.

    -Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites are also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history.

    -PBS Nova since they created a documentary explaining in detail how and why the buildings fell. None of it said bomb.

    -Everyone in the NIST who covers up the largest mass murder in US history. This independent organization doesn’t have a moral person in hundreds of employees because not one has come out exposing this so called “Conspiracy”. In fact, the hundreds of scientist who signed onto the report are willing to not only lie for Bush but cover up the largest mass murder in American history. Some suggest only a handful can do the job but that’s simply impossible. The team in charge of the computer modeling has to be in sync with the team of structural engineers and so on. There are hundreds involved in this investigation and every team has to work with other teams using the same evidence and specifications.

    -NY Governor Pataki because he sold steel from the WTC for the construction of the USS New York. If the argument is the government sold the steel in order to cover up the crime then Pataki is one of the criminals.

    -The NY city scrap yards because they also sold steel to China before all of it was tested. Bush would have needed to call them up and tell them to sell it before they could have investigated every beam. A task which would have taken years and years not to mention millions more. Ironically the republican Mayor Bloomberg could not be involved since he asked the scrap yards not to sell the steel on behalf of the firefighters.

    -EVERY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn’t write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down and could not have fallen due to fire. If laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context, then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right? Even the ones in other countries. Why? The answer they give is that the engineers don’t know about Jones’ work. So in all this time no one has e-mailed Jones’ work to any structural engineer?

    -Structure Magazine who published a report saying the collapse of WTC 7 may have been due to one column failing.

    -The liberals who don’t believe the towers were brought down. (Like me) They’re helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why? No clue…

    -The CIA

    -The FBI


    -The American Society of Civil Engineers who have produced peer reviewed papers showing how what Conspiracy Theorists say is impossible is possible.


    -The FAA who saw planes which conspiracy theorists say never existed.

    -The Silverstein Group who they say got together with Bush to blow up the building for insurance money.

    -Silverstein’s Insurance Company who didn’t question the collapse and paid out over 2 billion to Silverstein. Why? Conspiracy Theorists say the insurance company just wants to pass on the bill to the public but they already fought Silverstein in a number of law suits concerning the amount.

    -American Airlines (Pentagon)

    -United Airlines (Pentagon)

    -Logan, Newark and Dulles Airport for losing the planes

    -Scientists and engineers who developed the remote control plane technology

    -Installers of the remote control devices in the planes (Pentagon)

    -Remote controllers of the planes (Pentagon)

    -Scientists and engineers who developed the new demolition technology and carried out practical tests and computer models to make sure it would work.

    -Installers of the demolitions devices in the three buildings

    -People who worked at the company(s) the installers used as cover

    -Airphone etc employees who said they got calls from passengers (Pentagon)

    -Faux friends and relatives of the faux passengers or just the faux relatives who claim to have been called by their loved ones or just the psyops who fooled relatives into thinking they really were their loved ones. (Pentagon)

    -People who detonated the buildings

    -anyone who thinks the conspiracy is a diversion to take liberal activist focus off of real crimes.

    Even conspiracies with a few people are doomed. Look at Enron and Watergate. The more people you involve, the more likely the conspiracy will fall apart. The amount of people needed for this conspiracy could fill one of the towers. It’s absurd to think this many people could keep a mass murder for Bush secret for this long. Absurd…

  • Kermit

    Can I just say this was a very intersting read. Especially the discussion after about various things. However, people need to read a few more resources than Wikipedia. Although it is good for general stuff don’t forget anyone can go on there and write an article!

    My favourite conspiracy theory is the Reptilian people. David Ikes books are very well written and although I would never believe such a thing unless there was extensive evidence that is scientifically accurate, they really do make you think!

  • Legend and Lore

    (391): Could you please explain how?

  • lostatsea1

    @Johnny(392)Would you still feel the same if 9/11 was a hoax perpetrated to further American Imperial Aims? I have never believed the NIST or FEMA explanations of why these buildings fell. 200,000 tons of structural steel supported 60% of the buildings structure(this is a huge heat sink) kerosene(jet fuel) and office furniture can not cause a structural failure in less than an hour. The outer shell supported a mere 40% of the structure so would necessitate a cutting of the inner supports which would then collapse the outer shell inwards. This was an incredibly well done demolition from the top down with charges placed in lower columns detonating just before the planes actually hit the structures, this was testified by the fire dept. and first responders. are a group of over 700 Architects and Engineers who query the govt. report. I have worked with steel all my life and can honestly say that too many questions exist on what actually happened. As this was the impetus for the war in Afghanistan we Canadians may be embroiled in an illegal war!! Building 7 fell at free fall speed and cotained all Enron records also CIA and FBI offices..Larry Silverstein gained 8 billion in insurance claims this after he knew it would cost billions to remove asbestos from these same towers. I always follow the money, who stood to gain from the towers destruction?? who could use the attack to further their aims?? If you recall the day before Rumsfeld admitted to a missing 2.3 trillion from the pentagon!! Do some research as I have and something smells. This issue has been raised in tha Japanese Parliament and in the Italian govt. this has also been raised in Canada but was quickly hushed up! Please do some probing, I wish I was wrong but I am troubled by how quickly the debris was removed from the crime scene. Nano particles of thermite were recovered from the pyroclastic dust cloud which show an advanced explosive which was not manufactured by some cave dwelling anarchists. An Italian politician felt so strongly that he made a documentary called Zero. The Canadian Action Party are pursuing what they feel is one of the most important issues that affect us today. 9/11 spelled the end of freedom, the repeal of the Patriot Act, Posse Comitatus, infringement of the 2nd ammendment and stricter border control. Most insidious is the inclusion of RFIDs in drivers licences and passports, all this came about after 9/11. As in network…I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it!! Please remember the poor souls hanging out of the hole that the plane created gasping for air…how did puny humans survive this inferno but 200,000 tons of structural steel perish?? The black smoke billowing from the tower shows an oxygen starved burning at a lower temperature than one with adequate oxygen..another reason the people were tempting death to get air also the fires are clearly orange in colour, not hot enough to melt tin! Its hard to grasp but the signs are there..all it takes is to ask… what if?? Obviously the floors did not collapse on impact otherwise those people could not have reached the outer shell. The truth will come out. Most of the fuel was burned at impact! This post was a hard thing to do..I think we need an in depth inquiry by an international team to put these fears to rest..I hope you agree!!
    As to the real reason we are in this financial mess; This documentary shows how the Federal Reserve is destroying America for profit(They are a private corporation, not govt controlled) It’s a long one but anyone who wants to learn about the real reason behind all the wars and assassinations. this will blow your mind! I’ve watched all 3 1/2 hours..some I knew but other things I had no idea of. Ron Paul warned about this, as have many past Presidents and others. Even the Bank of England is a private bank! This video should be taught in all schools!

  • lostatsea1

    History of the Federal Reserve(Money Masters) Google this to get the video..the above link takes you to their website.
    enjoy..I did it in 1 hr sections..worth every minute! I downloaded it to watch it again..

  • bazma

    trust no1…but these kinda things keep our imaginations active

  • Fairy

    UFO crash near Roswell

    Hardly anyone nowadays would oppose the notion that the Universe, as vast as our science tells us it is, gave birth to one single planet able to support life, any form of life. It is at least my experience that most people find the probability of life on other planets (quite) realistic.

    With that in mind, it never ceased to amaze me how so many of us easily accept such probability in theory but it becomes ridiculous to many when it gets a bit closer to reality. Possible extraterrestrial life as a remote idea – yes, but those who claim (or believe) to have seen alien crafts are either crazy, or blind, or are halucinating, or can’t make a difference btw a cloud and a balloon, or btw a flying Chinese lantern and an airplane, for example.

    I’ve never seen anything that would look like an aircraft from another world, but it quite clear to me that if even the slightest percentage of UFO cases cannot be explained by the array of most incredible explanations at hand (and sometimes it is the “scientific” explanations that make me laugh), the chances are high that something is going on there.

    At the same time, hardly anyone will laugh (at least publicly) at accounts describing apparitions of various christian saints, even when these are told by children. The whole Western civilization today is based on a story that can match the wildest SciFi tales. (Can’t talk about other religions as I really don’t know much about them.)

    As for Roswell, the introduction above says that the US military authorities at the time stated that it was a weather balloon that crashed, but it omits to mention that the initial press release specifically said that a “flying disc” was recovered.

  • WTC 7

    THANKS to whoever it was who suggested watching The Money Masters! Just watched almost 3 hours of it & am shocked! No wonder I could never understand how economy actually works!

  • lostatsea1

    @WTC7(399)You’re wellcome! A little further knowledge;

  • WTC7

    lostatsea1 – Thanks again! Much appreciated!

  • lostatsea1

    WTC7-check my post at 395, it sums up my thoughts on 9/11.
    This one is for Americans worried about H1N1..why would troops be required at vaccination sites?

  • lostatsea1
  • lostatsea1

    Disinformation and Warfare
    Selected Articles

  • lostatsea1
  • lostatsea1
  • WTC7

    Hi lostatsea1 – I’ve read the post you’re referring to yesterday, and after reading it, I felt I should see the Money Masters. I thought that whoever it is that wrote the post would only recommend good stuff, ’cause it was no crap what you were saying, it’s serious argument, from my perspective in any case.

    Tried to discuss the same topic back in Sept last year, but to one of my arguments – for example, that the 911 commission didn’t even consider the statements of survivors about underground explosions and that for me that was one of the indications that the whole thing stinks – a response was that people would say anything in such stressful situations, hence, their accounts can’t be taken seriously! People need their sense of security, and to maintain it, they’d do whatever it takes – closing eyes before the obvious is one of the mechanisms.

    I admit that I’m lost when it comes to technical details of the structure of the buildings and their fall, but how can a person of an average intelligence, and without being a structural engineer, accept official explanation of the destruction of the WTC 7!!! I mean, come on; I can’t allow even my average intelligence to be insulted that blatantly! Besides, the commission’s report doesn’t mention WTC7 either…

    Thanks for all the links, just keep it coming, whatever you have :-). I’m sure I’m not the only one who appreciates it

  • lostatsea1

    @WTC7(407):Thank you! There is only one burning desire you must have to understand what I post, and that is the desire to learn outside the box. To see the yin and yang, the + and the – and to formulate the difference, that is the key to knowledge.
    There are so many sites to sift through and so hard to understand the truth..and then what to do when you have arrived at that want to shout out your version of that truth and still you do not know..for there are many versions of that truth and what is really true?

  • lostatsea1

    To continue; we live in a dichtomy, a heaven and hell, what we create in our lives and the signature we leave behind is what may shape our future life if we followed the Buddhist faith. All ancient myths and religions seem to follow a credo of ‘do unto others etc.’ makes sense to me!

  • lostatsea1

    I don’t like our (NATO) involvement in Afganistan, if as I suspect the terrorist attack on 9/11 was a false flag operation..too many lives have been lost in an unwinnable war! That is my final word on that!

  • Fairy

    I assume nobody’s interested in discussing the aliens??? How can that be, they are all over our skies and we still have nothing to say about it????

  • lostatsea1

    Declassified documents on a scenario similar to 9/11.
    @Fairy(411)The History Channel’s Black Box UFO Secrets reveals for the first time the cockpit and control tower audio recordings of pilot and astronaut confrontations and sightings of unidentified flying objects high in our skies.

  • lostatsea1
  • Fairy

    lostatsea1 412 – thanks, I’ve seen that one, but was somehow hoping that there’d be a bit more interest in the subject in general… here is a documentary on Phoenix lights, amazing…

  • Fairy

    Hi lostatsea1
    If you haven’t seen this already, check it.

  • WTC7

    For all the skeptics of the 911 events, watch the following documentary:

    I DARE anyone to come with one of the stupid arguments used by the mainstream “theory for idiots” and refute what they see in this documentary.

    I particularly like the Nobel prize winner basically laughing at the explanations of the US admin. about the fall of the WTC buildings.

    Another exceptionally good argument is presented as to the Pentagon hit – one really has to be retarded to believe the official explanation.

    However, from many of the above posts it seems that retarded is a norm.

    lostatsea1 – thanks again for the last link :-)

  • lostatsea1

    Hi Fairy
    Thanks for the link, and yes have seen it. I have been investigating this since it happened on 9/11! My post at 395 and links above sum up mt opinion of world events.
    It is a vast universe we live in and I am sure we are not the only lifeforms in it! Ancient Aliens

  • lostatsea1

    Zero is a fine doc, I’m a member of and others trying to get the message out.

  • lostatsea1

    I am also a licenced technician since 1969 and have worked with steel most of my 61yrs I’m not some ‘nutter’! Heat travels and dissipates rapidly in such a structure. To fall in less than 1 hr goes against the theory of conductivity and relative physics.

  • WTC7

    lostatsea1 – very happy to have this opportunity to talk to one of you guys! It’s great what you are doing, the whole movement for the truth about 911, and I admire your courage in fighting against all odds – your adversary is very powerful and extremely corrupt, and is not constrained by ethics. Good luck!

  • Jesse From NZ

    that wun about the third secret was kinda konfusin but it buzzed me out lol and i rekon 911 was prity outa control but there were bombs in the towers ????????

  • Gibson

    we never shouldve went to the middle east. too many soldiers have died for a war we shouldnt be fighting. its not our war so why are we fighting it?

    withdraw from the middle east now and save lives while we still can

  • WTC7

    Gibson – While I completely agree with you as to the unnecessary deaths, there are several points that you might have missed:

    1. This IS your war, or better, the war of your business and political elite. It is not Saddam who started the war, it is the US gov’t who started it, as you may recall, on the grounds of WMDs that to this day have not been found, although the country is swarming with US staff from all walks of (relevant) life.

    2. It is not only the soldiers who are dying there, the war and the disappearance of the strongman Saddam has unleashed the bloodshed at a scale that cannot account for the benefits of his removal and the “liberation of Iraq” in terms of lost life, civilian and military.

    3. It’s the oil, it’s the weapons and god know what else behind why you are fighting it. It is certainly not because you and your neighbors asked for it.

    4. Now, withdrawal from Iraq is just another in a row of irresponsible decisions. Or maybe not irresponsible, but simply premeditated. Let them kill each other, but we will still be getting our profits – we have installed our companies in Iraq and they are there to stay and bring regular revenues…. and much more… Leaving Iraq, Gibson, will not stop killing, it will only stop killing of American occupiers… If that’s what your concern is?

  • Gibson

    you made alot of good points but is oil worth hundreds of lives? is some extra money worth all the grieving families and faterless children?

    let them kill each other but save some American lives, or at lest if we’re not going to withdraw at least better equip the men fighting it.

  • lostatsea1

    @423&424: You both seem to forget that many soldiers from other countries have died in Iraq, not too mention the hundreds of thousands Iraqis. Saddam was an ally of the US in the war with Iran and the weapons were supplied by the US. Our Canadian troops have been fighting in Kandahar, Afghanistan since 2002 in response to the attacks of 9/11, a fact not many Americans are aware of. That is why I hope Americans will force Congress to renew a real investigation of why 9/11 happened. Please read the link below.
    URL of this article:

  • lostatsea1
    Afghan War: NATO Builds History’s First Global Army
    Never before have soldiers from so many states served in the same war theater. What is really going on? Is this the start of the new world order? Research the North American Union, the Amero and the S.P.P. Why did Britain retain the Pound but the rest of Europe the Euro? The march toward a global currency has started and with it the loss of sovereignty.

  • lostatsea1

    @Johnny(392)20 Aug 2008 … My fellow firefighters, we can’t afford to brush this off to politics or ignore this anymore. Stand up with Firefighters for 9/11 Truth, … Have you even researched any of my posts? There is overwhelming evidence of a coverup and the poor excuse by popular mechanics and Nova to explain the collapses left out salient points as did NIST and FEMA. These things (false flags) are compartmentalized usually invoving Delta forces or even more secret wet ops teams who will kill to mantain secrecy. Would you tell if it meant your life and family’s lives?

  • lostatsea1

    NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) 921, which is the National Standard for Fire and Explosion Investigations, very clearly indicates in numerous sections that the possibility of explosives should have been thoroughly investigated. Specifically in NFPA 921 18.3.2 “High Order Damage”- “High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.” World Trade Center’s 1, 2, and 7 all clearly met this definition; therefore they should have been thoroughly investigated and analyzed for explosives. Specifically, the use of “exotic accelerants” should have been investigated. In NFPA 921 19.2.4 -“Exotic Accelerants,” three indicators were clearly met that should have led to a thorough investigation into the possible use of “exotic accelerants,” specifically as stated in the guideline, “Thermite mixtures.”

  • WTC7

    424 Gibson – of course that oil or money aren’t worth a single life! As to your second point – “let them kill each other but save some american lives”, I’m afraid that those who make the decisions to go to wars (to which they send their own people) don’t give a damn about ANY life.

  • WTC7

    425 lostatsea1 – you are absolutely right that there are others than Americans who fight and die in Iraq. I can only appologize if such an omission on my part sounded offensive, but I can assure you that I am very well aware that it’s not just the US soldiers who are perishing there.

  • WTC7

    lostatsea1 – by the way, the link with documentaries you posted earlier was a super discovery for me :-)

  • lostatsea1

    @WTC7(430):The Real Grand Chessboard and the Profiteers of War
    By Prof. Peter Dale Scott
    Glad to help, always good to find a fellow searcher for the truth to the problems we face and the forces behind them. :)

  • oouchan

    @lostatsea1 (432): I was wondering where you were. Should have looked here first! :)

    Saw some more reseach being done on the relationship between oil and money on a late night show and thought of you. Thanks again for your links!

  • lostatsea1

    @oouchan(433):Konichiwa oouchan! My favourite topic..conspiracies..still trying to educate others to look beyond the box and at least explore other viewpoints.
    Love and peace :)

  • dingleberry

    @Dan (4):
    at which point in the diana topic do you see 2001… it says ” in 1997, princess Diana…” nice try dingleberry

  • hank

    what about andrew johnson having lincoln killed

  • youaremuppet435

    (435) dingleberry, check out post 5 you muppet.

  • john from cleveland

    why wouldent the government kill its own citizens?there are 301 million americans,who cares if a few thousend die?and if you think the government couldent do such a thing look up “operation northwoods”.thats all i have to say.

  • rahul

    hi everyone can any one tell me the conspiracy theories of tupac is he alive or dead

  • I Believe

    I’m a firm believer in a conspiracy to kill JFK, after researching all the data available the last 20 years. But there are so many ‘theories’ that it’s hard to pick just one. Through my own research (i am a researcher by trade and education) i can fit a few peices of more than 2 of the regular ones together. Vietnam played a big roll.
    As for the others, I have no doubt something happened at Area 51. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it was paranormal. I do believe, through past research, that there was a slight warning of Pearl Harbor, but not with enough time to do anything.
    I never believed the moon landing was a hoax until i started researching it last month, and there is some pretty damning evidence.
    And i know 9/11 had something to do with the government.
    I love conspiracy theories, only because there is all too often some truth, even if it is just a little, in them that ‘the man’ is trying to hide.

    2021 the files wil be released on JFK assassination, i want to be the one to open them.

    P.S. This is my first post, but i have become addicted to your site in just one day. What an awesome little site.

  • mel

    I think each and every one of these theories are worth saying, though till they touch our lives or those around us, do we really say more than wow, OH, or gosh. how could anyone ever get away with that? the truth is, the power of those in power, is great at a level we can not comprehend. so our job for now, is to question
    So here’s one, not for me, but for you, The German war machine 1930’s the manufacturers (B M W V W M B) were they so named by chance,or was it a job for the free masons there are a series of folds the first at the V.
    A medallion Charles V imperial apotheosis, was one man searching/seeking immortality with his own life sacrifice. Hey get thinking.?? a Bat silhouetted against the moon in a square frame
    and finally, though it’s never been asked, Lamech DID KILL Enoch.
    have a really lovely day

  • Seb

    Has no1 thought of the biggest conspiracy yet…it wud explain everything…life is one giant FUCKED UP conspiracy!!!

  • maddof

    n1 is not a conspiracy, its just a fact !

  • Dr Giovanni Nobile

    Interresting list. Theories are private property, but truth is common stock.

  • flamehorse

    #10 is my all time fave. You don’t get more fun than that.


    “Paul is dead! Paul is dead!”

    thats my favorite, haha

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  • paul C
  • lostatsea1

    @paulC(447)Thanks for the link! :)

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  • Ppop

    lol, 1-9 all orchistrated by the illuminati.

  • RachelH

    You should make another list, maybe include the whole conspiracy surrounding Paul McCartny’s “death”. You know, the one that started because puals feet on one of their albums wasn’t in sync with evreyone elses (and the secret messages in beatles songs)

  • Stephan

    i have two theroies that you could check out and find out if they are true or not 1. MLK jr. a homosexual communist who plegedrized most of his school work while in college and his i have a dream speech 2. this is a big one and iam not sure how to spell it the illuminti 3. this one is not really a theroy but george bushes extended family tree

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  • Terri

    Where is the Titanic in your top list?

  • Alicia

    How can you have Princess Di and not Elvis???

  • Alicia

    oh yeah, and in a few years, Michael Jackson will be on the list.

  • Lex Talionias

    i take my hat off to the author of this list, form what i can tell is it is fair and unbiased. it dosn’t lean in favor or against any of the conspiracies and simply states the facts

  • The AntiCarl

    (Nowt personal Carl, just I’m a Carl but you got there first so mwahaha etc)
    Oh and I’m also a Freemason, both a Master Mason and Royal Arch Mason; which is kinda nice because I don’t know many places where Christians, Jews, Muslims and Sikhs will sit down around a table for a pleasant chat and do charity stuff. But I’m not allowed to tell you that because it would ruin our sinister reputation; instead I can say that we did in fact fake the moon landings and are involved in a conspiracy to generate enough antimatter to send the Pope into an alternate reality, filled with marshmallows. And yes, I can confirm that George Bush was in fact a space Nazi from Mars. (At least that last one was true!)

  • strp2urhead

    that sith is crazy!!!!! im still tripping on the doller bill thinng

  • anatron

    you are right. The sith lords are crazy. Praise the truth of an error.

    As for the conspiracy theories…any individual who is a consumer and even some off-stream observers don’t have a single clue of what is going on up there. It is not about power but about intelligence. If it would circulate around power, the nuclear clouds would be a lot larger.

  • anatron

    well, let’s take a bite from both sides…and the human race; its primal motivation is to understand how the nervous system functions. We want power and i do not want to deny this, but it is a function of intelligence.
    The ruling class or elite or whatever you may call them or it, do not know better. Blaming them for the suffering of the human race (which is now buried deep in the collective) is as foolish as a rotten slice of individualism. A lot of people hovering around these theories, would accept a few million dollars to shut up. Paranoia and fear are to be banished, not promoted, because it is an integral part of the black tower.

  • anatron

    I am certainly not defending men in suits; they are just plain stupid kids with rockets. Evolution of intellect stimulates infantile behaviour. Have some mercy and every single mind on this planet will respect you for it. If not, then you are not mercyful.

    I myself am not wealthy and believe me, a person like me should have all the reason in the world to hate the government, yet i understand it under my poor circumstances.

  • KevKev

    Is the Monster from cloverfield still alive?????

  • The one who’s always right

    I agree with seb

  • While reading all those conspiracy theories, I could say that I am quiet impressed but I cannot say that I am conviced that those were all true. Most of the thoughts were well presented and compelling. Honestly, I don’t believe in them.

  • sis

    you spelled favoite wrong at the top? how can i trust that this information is correct? im doing a research project.? i want the right info?

  • T


  • archiealt

    @T (465):

    Why does snoop dog carry an umbrella? Fo Drizzle!

  • It’s tough to find Roswell episodes but after searching I founf them at they dont have every episode but that’s ok there’s enough for me to get my fix.

  • kiru117

    wow ill tell u that some are true and some are not

  • kiru117

    also they use this stuff as coverups thats the only reason why they let us talk bout this im 14 its not that hard to figgure out

  • Tamara

    @T (465): Your post have numerous interesting points. I would be very intersted to chat with you regarding some of your views, and learn more

    Please connect with me at

    thank you for your time


  • Madan

    Very nice article. But regarding John F.Kennedy assassination, I’ve since know that, it happened at 10:10 A.M., not 12:30 P.M. I am not sure about that. Anyhow nice work.

  • frecklesash

    Good list, but I think “9/11 Planned by the Jews” would be more accurate.

  • bassbait

    At kiru117 (468-469)

    Well, cover-ups or not, you can’t just say you know that some are true and some aren’t. The fact is, if there is a cover-up, somebody as good as the government would be smart enough to keep it a secret. This isn’t knowledge leaked from the government, this is made up based on perception of the, well, audience. So unless the person really does their research, the theory is no more than a hypothesis, and that’s what most of these are. I can say Myspace was planned by the government and Lady Gaga was planned by the government to promote stupid behavior, but then I would most likely be wrong. It’s just as easy for an average joe to create an elaborate lie as it is the government, but since the government hasn’t killed me yet, I don’t think I’m going to trust the average conspiracy theorist yet.

  • musharabahmedissadhabi

    thats just bullshit in ttthe highest order how can the jewish domionate the world the arabs will always rule

  • Robbie

    Its obvious that 9/11 was formed by the government, every yank will scream and shout wen i put this message in but its true, Americans are fuckin stupid, all they do in the wars is ‘accidentaly’ kill their own soldiers, it wont matter to them if thousands of people died.

  • will

    fuk you,and by the way if it wasnt for the “stupid americans” your shitty country would probably be speaking german

  • WTC7

    You got it wrong dear Will, ’cause if it wasn’t for the Bushes and similar rich human scam to finance him, Hitler would have never got to power in the first place. So, Robbie would still be speaking his own language… Ignorant *#?$*

  • May

    Will, it is because of people like you that the rest of the world hates Americans. You are proving Robbie almost correct. There happens to be a small percentage of Americans, that includes me, that actually have and utilize their brain. Maybe you should partake of the art. As far as the Bush family goes I’m just going to say, ever heard of Illuminati or New World Order?

  • Brooke

    Wow! I’m doing a reasearch paper on a conspiracy and this list helped me so much! The search is so wide on google, it is so difficult to find a specific theory that is actually a good one. Thank you

  • john smith

    umm well may i add that gorge bush was the worst president we ever had…the only reason he became president was because hes family was wealth or is and because he father was once president. Bush went to harvard only because his father paid a large amount of money to let him in…his good friend and colleague osaba bin laden even had business together…which included oil in saudi arabia…well bush believe that bin laden was keeping more money for himself…so they got into a little dispute that later turned into a way, bringing their own countries into the dispute…so blame our economy problems and failures, the war and about everything wrong going on in our country on a little colleague dispute,,,fuck goerge bush.

  • May

    Oh he definitely was the worst. I think it’s sick that America and the middle east have become a playing ground for their family games and feuds. Even AFTER his presidency has come to a close. For over a year now! I’m just a firm believer in New World Order, the Bilderberger Group, all of those idears implying that a select few pretty much control and make all the decisions. There is no such thing as a democracy it’s all one totalitarian world that we will never have an actual control or say over. One great world of oppression.

  • Rocknroll

    Actually the Warren Commission sealed it’s findings for 50 yrs untill 2013 only then will
    we truly know about JFK,, and there is no other reason cept to protect those involved to seal
    it findings for 50 yrs. ( everyone involved would be dead by 2013 for all intensive purposes)
    give me another valid reason to seal the true findings for so long????

  • anonymous

    I personally think the Kennedy Assassination was a conspiracy.First,he is ridden in a convertable in a REDNECK town so he could get shot{Probably because he didn’t support the Vietnam war}.Second, Jack Ruby kills Oswald because Oswald was saying he didn’t kill anybody.If you don’t believe that, I dont know what you will.

  • Jonny R.

    Great list. But I still believe there are UFOs but thats about it. All others are crap. Glad there are still sane minds sharing info in the internet.

  • sammykayification

    Overall, an interesting list, but not consistant. You don’t discriminate between the totally f-d up conspiracies like the Protocols and 9/11, with possible ones like someone pulling Oswald’s strings to shoot JFK, or Fatima, simply a matter of faith (no reason or logic involved), no different than believing Mary was a Virgin.

  • joshsaveslives

    you didnt even include illuminati theories, that should be number one in my eyes. of course thats just my opinion thought.

  • Talim

    It really makes me wonder, is everyone lying through their teeth?

  • whydoyoucarewhatmynameis

    im sorry, but number 6 is such BS it is sad.

  • cheeky

    These are all true. Do the research, ya pinheads

  • eric

    do you believe that Micheal Jackson’s death had a conspiracy? then what was it?

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  • mattman624

    The Pearl Harbor one was real

  • Dylan

    Has anyone talked about the illuminati conspiracy? I’ve researched that for weeks now and well it seems no one ahs even heardd of it or atleast is acknowleging it.

  • jack

    I recently flew to colorodo from Illinois and back. I had a knife in my backpack, a 4 inch blade, and security did not find it.

  • JC

    I see this was published before ClimateGate.

  • Boby

    I think 9/11 was really designed by US government. You may have seen live news video after first tower was hit, in which the towers was destructed from bottom-up. It was likely old buildings destructed by TNT!
    Also, it's weird why all jewish employees didn't go work that day.

  • Goof

    I’d have to agree with Boby, 9/11 was a stage. There is now way a couple of airplanes could bring the World Trade Center down. If you look at videos carefully, the towers fall straight down which is a very professional job used at demolition sites carried out by engineers. TNT would have to be used placed very carefully at certain point of the building and would have to blow up sequentially. Do a little research on demolition using explosives.

    Why would the government allow this to happen? Read the book “The End of America” by Naomi Wolf or the see the documentary with the same title.

    • melthengylf

      I will agree with this fact.
      I read a book, "Hitler ganó la guerra", from W Graziano. Most of it is unworthy, but it's section "30 denarios" is pretty good. It justifies with 30 reasons why he sais Bush settled up the 9-11
      I will make a summary of some:
      -The supposely pilots weren't as proffessional as needed. There are hints that they learned to fly Boeings in America, recently.
      -In theory the terrorists settled down the tripulation with just paper cutters.
      -There are not filmics from the pentagon, although to be a military well surrounded place. Later, there appeared some videos, but without the crucial part.

  • Josh

    I kind of had to laugh at chris' comment from 146 weeks ago because we basicly did elect hillary clinton

  • melthengylf

    -The crash in the pentagon was almost horizontal, which make very difficult to avoid, at that velocity the surrounding high-tension cables.
    -In the pentagon, the dead people where from presupuest and comunications.
    -It was necessary to destroy the Twin Towers, to destroy its internal structure (550ºC), when plain combustible can only lead 360ºC.
    -The south tower fell down before the north one, when it was not only crashed later, but also in the angle, instead of the center.

  • melthengylf

    -There were witnesses who listened explosions in the down part, which it was fastly driven out from the media.
    -The first enterprise that got in the place was "Controlled Demolition Inc."
    -They sold before any forense practice, the steel of the structure.
    -The upper part of the building vanished.
    -The tower fell in a very clean fashioned: the surrounding buildings were not affected, there was no remnant structure, etc. This can happen in a controled demolition, not in a plane crash.
    -Both towers were build in order to resist Boeings plane crashes, but they both fell down.
    -Bush said he saw in television the first crash, when it was not in television, on live.
    -In the 6-9 and 7-9, nearly 15 times the normal quantity where sold of actions, from American Airlines and United Airlines.

    There are another 15 justificvations, but I got tired.

    Oh, and WTF Obama got nobel prize and attacked Afganistan?

  • Jerry Mansfield

    Kate’s post (No. 334) regarding that Kalpa Vigraha (on January 20th, 2009 at 5:29 am) is the most absorbing and brilliant piece of investigative journalism I’ve read so far. Excellent!!!

    Conspiracy and CIA go hand in glove, but this story sure takes the cake.

    What will happen the day the Kalpa Vigraha is “discovered” by someone?

    I also feel doubtful it is in India. Some CIA Deep Throat will surely show up on Larry King or Jay Leno with the Hindu artifact. Mark my words!!

  • Jerry

    Kate's post (No. 334) regarding that Kalpa Vigraha (on January 20th, 2009 at 5:29 am) is the most absorbing and brilliant piece of investigative journalism I've read so far. Excellent!!!

    Conspiracy and CIA go hand in glove, but this story sure takes the cake.

    What will happen the day the Kalpa Vigraha is "discovered" by someone?

    I also feel doubtful it is in India. Some CIA Deep Throat will surely show up on Larry King or Jay Leno with the Hindu artifact. Mark my words!!

  • Lynda

    So does anyone have a good conspiracy theory about the oil spill?

  • e pressley

    conspiracy theories = for people with lack of knowledge and understanding of the facts

  • akbar


  • krisna

    i will really happy if you disply truth of king Birendra family murder in Nepal on this page Conspiracy Theories

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  • kiwi

    I still fondly remember my professors at univeristy threatening to fail anyone who used wikipedia as a reference

  • Bill

    Global Warming is a Fraud! I noticed this list was posted back in 2007; but there is no doubt (by now), this was ONLY a politically correct movement. Everyone from Al Gore on down has been shown to be the losers that they are (with Al Gore being shown that he has not only been fraudulent with global warming, but he is a sex pervert to boot). Only the most arrogant among us would believe man has the power to destroy what God created.

  • P Smith

    "Conspiracy theories" aren't theories. Theories explain facts, "conspiracy theories" ignore them.

    (1) ALL SIX Apollo moon landings placed a reflector on the moon. How could there be SIX reflectors if the Apollo 11 landing was a fake?

    (2) 9/11 wasn't Osama bin Laden's first try – remember the van blowing up in the parking garage in 1993? But just because the US government didn't do 9/11 doesn't mean they didn't know about it.

    The CIA warned of an attack, and the Clinton administration left tons of documents on Al Qaeda. The George Bu**sh** regime was incompetent and asleep at the wheel (re: Hurricane Katrina). That DOES fit with the known evidence of what happened.

    Here's another theory which agrees with ALL the evidence about 9/11: the Bu**sh** regime KNEW the attack was coming and LET IT HAPPEN. The "Project for a New American Century" (see: "Reich of a Thousand Years") nagged Bill Clinton to invade Iraq from 1996-1999. 9/11 was a convenient excuse.

    • Sam

      Well, if Bush was 'incompetent and asleep' and let 9/11 happen, wouldn't that mean that Clinton was also 'incompetent and asleep' since the WTC was attacked during his presidency? Or does it mean that terrorism is extremely difficult to predict and stop?

      And most people agree now, after the aftermath of Katrina, that the levee's failure caused most of the damage to New Orleans. The same levees that were there during Clintons administration too. Hmm..everything is Bush's fault isn't it??

  • hannibal

    what about these CHEMTRAILS the german and uk government have admitted they done these test from the 50's to present day!

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  • unknown

    you know what…the jews can kiss my ass, after WW2 they think that the entire world should feel sympathy for them just like the blacks feel that they need some sort of special treatment after slavery was abolished. Our country is the land of the free….for AMERICANS, not some freeloaders that feel they should get some type of government help. George Bush did the right thing by sending our troops to war, but once again the new president that we have feels that just because he is colored, he is the answer to all americas problems so stop bitchin about our country and get out or shut the hell up

  • con

    check out chem trails. big conspiracy. professors from various univerities have proven them impossible. they are the trails that airplanes leave behind

  • gagaforconspiracy

    To whomever writes this site: read America's Worst Presidents. You might find that interesting. It provides detail that JFK was connected to the Russian Mob. JFK was rumored to have been killed by our American government most likely for his connections to the Mob, or maybe Lyndon B. Johnson had him killed to move up to the position of President. The whole assasination was a cover-up, like the American government has been doing for years. Think of this: the government pays Lee Harvey Oswald to kill him, but multiple gunshots were heard. That was because there were four different American Army snipers that were stationed in the crowd, and Oswald's shot was the signal to fire. An autopsy report claims that the bullet hole that killed him was from Oswald's shot, but it most likely wasn't. The angle was off. The bullet entered at the base of the skull and exited the other side. The American Government used a civilian as a scapegoat, in order to eradicate the blame from themselves and redirect it onto Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald was innocent.

  • lawa

    i think the list is belivable and more events was done as a step part of the strategic plan, thanks for your theories

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  • James H. Metaphor

    Watch "Loose Change", if u want any evidence on 9/11. There is so much evidence they made three films, and american government is still denying it, and refusing to even look at evidence. In an interview with the guy who made the film, they refused to let him propose any evidence and performed ridiculous experiments that didn't prove anything and were in no way even remotely relevant to what happened. America thinks people will just go along with whatever they say, but 1 in 3 americans (based on a recent survey) blame america/bush for 9/11 or think bush was involved. I mean, he ordered the wreckage to be taken away and burnt, then he allowed investigators in to see what was left. Does that sound like the actions of an innocent man???

  • Kyle

    You are all idiots. All these conspiracies were planted by the real people behind the scenes to distract you from their perfectly executed conspiracy that no one knows about. Who are they? I don’t know. What is that plan? Beyond me. How are they pulling it off? Haven’t a clue. But that is the point! If there was such a perfect plan, would anyone know about it? Would it make some internet list where everyone could see it? Of course not! And there is no evidence for it because if there was a perfectly executed conspiracy that no one knows about, that is exactly what you would find: no evidence of one! Yeah, sure…the government was behind 9/11—THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK. Open your eyes people!

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  • mikoo

    all posted are all reality and business interest of someone else but they didn't know how effect to the whole world of a simple story like ths!!!!!!!!!!

  • christy

    what about the Oklahoma city bombing??

  • Grace

    Though, obviously not as important…what about Paul Is Dead!!!
    I love that one!

  • Jay

    Thanks, Grace. Yeah, Paul's death was a major controversy for several years. And we still don't know the real truth behind that, although we can guess it was just some mystically-oriented guys having some fun. But why hasn't anyone ever just confessed to that? Is Sir Paul afraid they'd take away his knighthood? Hehehe.

    And while we're on the subject, let's give a nod to the worst hoax of all time, M. NIght Shymilanolin"s hour special promoting his new movie. When the strange information first came out, indicating he had been dead for a while, I was one big aural appendage, wanting to hear more. But after a few minutes of that I realized, it was just a bucket of undigested squirrel gizzards. I think other people were equally disappointed. And let's face it, everything he did since then has been bad, and his career has tanked.

  • Oii

    Global warming is a perfectly natural process. It fluctuates from warming/cooling over a large number of years. It's just that public seemed to take notice as it's in the process of warming up and decided to throw a shit storm over it. Ice caps melt and re-freeze all the time. It's been going on since the beginning of time, and we're still here!

    • Jay

      The human race wil survive, so who cares? That's your argument????

  • Kenny Bates

    I dont think this was discussed at all. One of the conspiracy theories i belive in is that of the cure for cancer. I believe either the government or the private sector found a cure. They are getting millions of dollars in "donations"to "find a cure". I havent done any resarch on this though. Your thoughts?

  • Jay

    There are a great many promising treatments for cancer that we're not hearing about. One of them is injected Vitamin C in huge amounts. There are some others and "traditional medicine" led by the AMA is keeping very quiet about all of this. We really need some group to experiment with the new methods and determine their efficacy, but that's unlikely in the medical establishment. So the few cases where someone has voluntarily chosen to try an experimental method is all the information we have. It's considered anecdotal, but a few people truly believe in these methods.

    In my own case, I had bladder cancer. This is considered one of the deadliest forms. I was diagnosed, had my surgery five days later, and went back to work the next day. I didn't miss a single day of work.

  • stejay

    Just going back a few years on one of jfrater's posts he made a coment saying that the book of Araham which members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe was writen through revelation by the prophet Joseph smith was false, please can he explain him self how he actualy knows this.

  • Thehomelessman

    Global Warming is complete crap, it was actually warmer in the med eval/dark ages than it is now, the world goes through periodic warmings and coolings. we have little to no impact on the temperature of Earth. LILY pointed out just about everything i would had said about 9-11, i think JFK was assasinated in order to put political "puppets" in. The chances of life being on other planets is almost infinate (whether or not they are intellegent enough to do what UFO consperiators claim is unknown by me). I dont know enough info on the princess Diana, or Cathelic thingy. Jewish world domination is outlandish. The Apollo moon landing was real. And as far as the philidelphia experiment and the WWII theory goes…. i guess we'll never know!

  • Curtis

    I hav a compilation video of the deceptions of 9/11 attacks

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  • coolerking93


  • Eric

    what about the Denver International Airport (DIA) apocalypse conspiracy, I don’t believe the apocalypse will happen, but the demon horse from the book of revelation, and all the nazism references, it creeps the hel outa me,

  • Cochise

    Jeez, a lot of you are making significant leaps of logic here. I have to say, Occam’s Razor. The simplest answer tends to be the right one. Instead of it being some overtly complex intricate conspiracy, its more likely a simpler explantation. Like one guy shot JFK for his own reasons. We landed on the moon instead of thousands of NASA personnel creating a elaborate hoax and keeping it a secret. Don’t get me started on 9/11.

  • Kenny

    John F. Kennedy was killed by Hitler! Because JFK almost figured out that he was living under ground in the hollow earth with Elvis, he got help from his alien friends and killed him from their spaceship! Then he manipulated the evidence to look like Oswald killed JFK.

  • zachary

    #1 i believe is possible becuase the CIA in Project Northwood (look it up).
    #2 i believe was a brilliant plan to get foriegners (during the war) to chase after alien technology to advance there arsenal, which there wasn’t any to chase, so the CIA convinces our enemies there are aliens with super weapons, so they chase something that isn’t there. there are aliens, but none here.
    #3 JFK took power away from the CIA after Northwood, to create a False Flag against Russia(look up Oswalds short history in Russia) and to get more power, so they shot him (not Oswald) from a different position than Oswald, then potentially framing Oswald (with his permission).
    #4 Global Warming has been proven it can happen, but there are major calculation errors in its graphs.
    #10 there are papers reporting what happend, some where destroyed, some are still around. Einstein worked to create a navy boat “invisible” to torpedoes and magnetic sea mines. This is not the 1st time Einstein did secret work. he also worked to create the atomic bomb. I can’t explain it. The boat disapeared in a poof of green gas then reappearred with some of the sailors actually fused to the walls of the boat, some disapearred, some went crazy, the rest had bad migrains.
    that is what i have to say.

  • BrotherWill

    Yeah, except the man made global warming conspiracy has been exposed for the lie that it is with climategate. Sorry, fail for you author.

  • hm

    cell phone users beware big brother may be listening federal bureau of investigation can now hear everything you say even when the cellphone is turned off, i know it sounds kinda out there but using the phones tracking device authorities can now activate the mic inside the dreaded thing and eves dropon you and your conversation


    pls i want to make money like Bill Gate am from a very poor family am a university student no money to train me is very hard like for me please i need somebody that we direct me very well not somebody that will use me as am exchange.

  • Name

    i really don’t think we should talk about number 1 and 6 it seems inappropriate

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  • CekunduddyCit


  • Reality

    You are forgetting the biggest conspiracy theory of them all.


  • Name

    Enter your comment here.


  • Dave (Everyones name is dave too)

    I like it DAAAAVES!!

  • Aubrey C.

    A steel-reenforced building has never collapsed due to fire or jet fuel before 9/11. Not only have none never collapsed before in history, but 3 collapsed on 9.11. THREE IN THE SAME DAY. Do you realize how high the odds are for tha happening? Not only that, but all 3 collapsed at free-fall speed. If you read the seizmic data for WTC 1 and 2, you will see that they collapsed around 10 seconds. This is also writen in that great fiction book, the 9/11 Commission Report. If you calculate the rate at which the buildings dropped, you will come up with 9.2 seconds in a vacuum. The WTC 1 and 2 collapsed at 10 SECONDS, which is free-fall speed NOT in a vacuum. Do you realize that is defying the laws of physics? The official story isn’t even physically possible. The lightest section of ANY building (the top) can never crush through tons and tons of steel in the strongest part of the building (the bottom) ESPECIALLY at the rate of gravity! If ANYTHING, the tops of the buildings would have maybe fell down a story or two and then rolled off to one side. NOT fall neatly on top of themselves, not even leaving the central core. Then there’s building 7. It wasn’t even hit by a plane, yet it also fell at free fall speed (about 7.5 seconds) due to a fire in the basement? Is this a joke? There have been steel buildings that have been TORCHED burning for 19 HOURS that never collapsed, yet building 7 burned for maybe 6 hours with no real visible fire, and even more rediculous, WTC 1 and 2 burned for an hour and a half PUT TOGETHER.

    This is only some of the obvious evidence that 9/11 was indeed an inside job. Sometimes I wonder why the government made it so obvious that it was an inside job, but i now realize that they really didn’t have to cover ***** up because the American people are such lazy ass drones that they will believe anything and everything their dear old overnment tells them to believe. I’m pretty sure most americans don’t even know what the words ‘INDEPENDENT RESEARCH’ and ‘THINKING FOR ONES SELF’ mean anymore.

    Anyways, sorry for disturbing you and your CNN and PBS documentary news watching, have a nice day.

    • p1t1o

      So you just post and re-post this as many times as you can?

      That is pretty special behaviour….

  • chuck

    Enter your comment here.

  • Vincent

    I’ve seen the first and second prophecies and it is SCARY(it involves hell and the dammed)

  • chalesdor

    the Japanese did not attack pearl harbor—-the U.S. NAVY attacked pearl harbor—there were no ships in pearl 2 months prier to the attack,,they were stationed in SAN DIEGO,,,,all the ships were raised, supplied and sent to the coral sea in 30 days—-the 3 carriers all left pearl Saturday night, no explanation an no support ships—-none of the fuel tanks were hit—no repair shops—no sub. pins hit—lots of smoke but no flames,,no fire damage….

  • soaseaftesy


  • Joshua

    1991-09-11, New World Order announcement
    2001-09-11, Word Trade Centre buildings bombing
    2011-09-11, Any ideas?

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  • p1t1o

    This post is entitled: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

    Well obviously I’m not going to read all ten pages of comments.

    And it is impractical to respond to a particular post as there are tens of posts per issue and whole piles of…just…ridiculousness.

    But what I will say is that “independant research” or whatever consists of more than just googling for blogs and chatting to like-minded people.

    How many people here have examined the 911 wreckage? Or talked to an eye witness? Or interviewed an expert with regard to actual raw data? Or was actually there? I took 911 as an example, but this applies to most “conspiracy theorists” out there.

    Not many is the answer.

  • ads

    tbh theres many ways jfk could of been assasinated oswald could of been hired by the cia or even the mafia most likely mafia because he got shot on the day of his court trial and to me that looks like someone trying to stop him from talking oswald could of gave mor einfo about what happened :/

  • Mr. Marshmallow

    I Believe That That The 9/11 Was Not A Hoax Because Throughout History The Terrorists Have Planned And Executed A Lot Of Plans, Like The Car Bomb 1993, The 7/7 Bombings In London Which I Am Living In Right Now, I Am 13 And I Myself Have Been Reading Your Comments, And Your Views And Beliefs Are Clouding Your Common Sense

    • p1t1o

      Well said.

  • JK

    You Left of the titanic one, That really it was its sister ship that went down, That its sister ship was not insured and falling apart,

    Would explain why the crew got off at southaptom and never came back (some) Also that there was the ideal ship only a few miles away which would have been the ideal saver ship. And lastly the ship that is on postcards with titianc on it is in fact its sister ship, Photos would have been taken in New York and as it never got there then there was no point photos could have been taken,

  • JK

    Oh and when it comes to 9/11 ive seen comments on here saying about the govement being OK with killing that many of there countrys people, Remember they was not all from the USA. Second you go on faith and that no person whom belives in a good could let that happen, Lets take the pope as a example, The guy who when given the job reads a book of all events that will take place in the world (Or so its said) Dont see him running out on the streets waring people.

    I myself do feel that the govement knew somehow, You telling me with all your agencies not one of them heard anything? You have three types of people: Good people Bad people, Then theres govement people.

    But then each to there own :)

    • p1t1o

      Wha? You blame the pope for not telling the future? Am I reading that right?

  • JK

    No you miss the concept there lol,

    We are going on hear say that when the pope is elected he is given a book that tells all that will happen in the world before the end day. If you belive in all that,

    Now if that is true there is no man closer to god then the pope but you dont see him warning people of the things that will happen,

    So if the pope can do it and not feel no regreat Im sure bush could have done it, In REF to the comment stating that a christen Bush would not have let it happen.

    • p1t1o

      Hmm, ok, I’ll go with it…

      Well, what I’d say is that people at or near the top, Bush or the Pope, cannot really give massively impacting news, they have to work behind the scenes.

      If the Pope goes “Somethingsomething will happen in 49days if everyone doesn’t stop doing suchandsuch” or if Bush said “We have suchandsuch information, we are going to war.” Then a lot of people would be all like “Whaaaaaaat? No way, I’m going home, this is a bunch of BS.”

      So they have to work in more subtle ways behind the scenes.

      Wait, except Bush DID do that…hmmm…oh, its probably because God told him to.

      Its a funny old world hey?

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  • mama’s boy


  • H.

    It would appear that so very many of you are very good at making up whatever “truth” you like in order to make your conspiracy theory sound credible. Believe what you will but you will never convince me that our government had a role in the attack on the WTC as I have heard no credible reason for such a violent attack by our own government.

  • elffie

    really really enjoyed this thank you lots of love.

    p.s. dont include any religious shit again cause we already know its a hoax hehe

  • K?vanç Bulca

    Where is Paul McCartney’s Death? :)

  • Aghmiyan


  • non-sheep


    this is fucked .. why are all americans sheep .. the us gov are kings of properganda and always have been ..

    this war has nothing to doo with terrorism but oil and money !!

    some simple facts !!

    1 a fox reporter called up fox live from ground zero saying he clearly saw the first plane hit the tower and it was not a passanger plane ..

    it had no windows and had a big blue symbol on it .. this was played live on tv but never again. possibly radio controlled by norad ..

    2 firefighters reported explosions going off during there deccent.

    3 7 different videos of the second plane showed something large device under the fuselage (bomb)

    4 many experts believe the white dripping fire was caused by thermite placed in the buildings to melt the steel..

    5 the 2 main buildings as well as building 7 came down like a demolishion.

    6 the plane that crashed in penncylvania and the pentagon left no evidence like wings tail wheels wings ,nothing .. missiles ..

    7 the pentagon which is the nerve centre of us military which would have thousands of cameras around it ,and all they had was

    2 or 3 frames of an impact explosion

    video of the pentagon shortly afterward showed a hole to small to be made by a jet before more collapsed..

    8 a video system was confiscated from a gas station up the road ,, and recently won back in court and released on the net

    clearly showng a missile ..

    9 larry silverstein increased his insurance and updated his insurance to 2 seperate terrorist attacks just months prior to 911 ..

    people should get there news from utube and not tv the media are controlled by zionists who are scheming to create a new world order and take away our freedoms …..

    i think silverstein , juliani and the bush admin should all fry ..

    • p1t1o

      Non-sheep? You just regurgitated almost every conspiracy theory related to 911, clearly you will believe anything that appears on a blog.

      I know this comment won’t change your mind, I’m just writing it so that other people going through this list know that at least one person on the internet is sane.

      Am I 100% (literally certain) that there was nothing dodgy going on? No.

      Did the US government use bomb-laden remote control aircraft, cruise missiles and demolition charges to hoax the whole thing?

      You are having a laugh, it is literally funny.

      I would, of course, be very interested in seeing that video clip that you refer to in point number 8, that is, if it hasn’t been shut down by black governmnet shadow-agents.

      • Rachel

        And, clearly you will believe anything your brainwash box tells you. Which is worse? All of the news networks are owned by the SAME people involved in all of these things…. do you think they are going to broadcast that info to you? ha. You’re the one that’s the idiot. You will eventually realize what the truth was but by that time you may be dead or close to it. Some people are just slow learners I guess, I’ve always been bright and catch on fast and figure things out easily, in life it ended up being more of a curse because I am left to deal with the dumb dumbs…. gets old after awhile. Get your head out of your ass.

        • p1t1o

          I don’t know who owns your television stations and whatnot, but I am pretty sure that I am in another country and my TV/radio/newspaper is run by entirely different people. Then of course there is the internet and finally we have my own conclusions drawn from what I can see and hear.

          So who is controlling my brain again?

  • Hikari

    That was the worst disaster

  • No one


    • p1t1o

      IIRC (barely) someone important somewhere once hypothesised that hoaxing a moon landing would be more difficult than actually doing it, considering the number of people involved, the amount of hardware, media coverage etc etc.

  • A.Oscar

    We human’s could realized that; when human beings do not know, for sure invented. I do not believe Americans went to the Moon; because the greed there are of power, like having military bases in 70 countries, if they real went to the moon, for sure would be one military base there. 40 years went by and still using the same tackle. But for the years went by; we must come to the idea of know by now what thatched down in the moon, wouldn’t have the capacity to come up with a little rocket’s. All of that was only for the Englishmen seeing the rest to stupid. But let’s think now about it; many people only believed when seeing or heard, why millions believe on God, Devil, the history about Jesus Christ, and so on. But it is many problems between lie and the truth. The truth not so popular the way lie is. I believe in never trust human beings, only my mother laugh. But just think it is many things could be believe for the one’s know about what many think be a mystery, it is just about the impossible but technical could be proved. I know somebody acting like god; but he is a devil, because the suffering he create into many people, and many people think he is a nice man, the others think he is a bad guy. Human never change, and the more them, more I like animals, because animals no nothing about money.A.Oscar

    • p1t1o

      “…if they real went to the moon, for sure would be one military base there.”

      Apart from anything else, this is extremely spurious logic.

  • fxchu
  • skytown

    Churchill allowed Coventry to get bombed so I don’t understand why people can’t believe Roosevelt did the same thing.It was for the greater good of man and ended up saving lives and the war effort in the end.

  • syanur

    A theory which can become a reality, we sometimes do not know a high-level political ploy.

  • OutOfTheBox

    Those are not just myths , these theories are based on facts… truth is just in front of us …

  • yes

    wow… this page is full of so much crap….

  • musichiso

    To think that Any political leader is doing anything Entirely for the good for their country is Just Plain Blind. Political motivations are just a fancy way of saying “you’ll do it my way.” The Illuminati are just as bad as Scientologists. New World Order has to start with chaos. And what better way to get it, then to attack the strongest city/nation in the world. Stop Watching so much Damned Fox News and read between the lines

  • azazazazaz

    on a religious documentary revealed that…
    the 9/11 event was made to please freemason(zion subs) god ,in order to ease their god(really god?) to came up to surface(world) , but it just a big sacrifical ritual , on the documentary also revealed that , there is no jew were killed that day , then they revealed one more thing that osama bin laden was american agent and the terrorist in the airplane was among them too(american) , they used them to permit violation at iraq(islamic terrorism).

    why world unable to see it:
    the things that cliche , why do they fight Islam so hard……
    even a cartoon can answer this…a good character always be treated badly , most of them who treat them that way always have an dominance voice , power and physical.(even cartoon teach you that way)
    the truth will always live hard but in the end , truth strike , the other(who not believing) will follow..

  • puto

    jaaj eso es una patraña de per harbor a los gringos los tomaron de sorpresa nunca pensaron que les darian tan rapido , eso es una creacion de los que no aceptan eso XD

  • Bruce

    However USA is a fiction country. Moon landing can be full lie too.

  • websuspect

    An 1990 report from the group stated that “some catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor” would be needed to budge public opinion in their favor. – The Document was from PNAC. Project for a New American Century.

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  • No.4………Global Warming EXISTS. When the country of Greenland is melting at the same rate as the flow of the Colorado River, you know something is wrong. Also, its been 146 years since the assassination of President Lincoln and that still has some loose ends. We all know that John Wilkes Booth did the dirty deed by shooting Lincoln, but in fact there was also a plot to assassinate Vice President Andrew Johnson and Secretary of State William Seward. Booth also had an older brother named Edwin who very may have been involved along with many others. The Kennedy Assassination and its conspiracy will be going on for decades maybe centuries before the problem is solved. In my opinion, Lee Harvey Oswald did NOT act alone if not having anything to do with it in the first place. But that’s just my opinion.

  • Neva Trudo

    Very informative post. Your current Website style rocks as well!

  • Alexander

    Your the Idiot that posting stuff to put people down.

  • Apollo 11 conspiracy. Yeah right, MY ASS and its Hollywood overtones…….GIMME A BREAK !!!!

  • Dana

    do you any other conspiracy theories? i badly need a good one for my English project but i cant use these because they are in my book! if you can please send me a message on my email [email protected]

  • Rachel

    It’s not a theory if it’s a FACT. Most so called “conspiracy theories” are actually facts.

  • Rachel

    Fluoride being poisonous and purposefully added to the water to dumb down the population and also create illness is a FACT, not a theory. Chemtrails are also a FACT, they are mentioned many times in gov documents and all you have to do is open your eyes, it’s not that hard. There are currently lawsuits going on in several U.S. counties to ban them from spraying over their county. Vaccines are also harmful, and were also designed that way purposefully. They want to reduce the population. They have spoken about it many times openly in recorded meetings, but you won’t see that on CNN or anything else of value. Because the same people that want to reduce the Earth’s population also own all the news networks. All people need to do is get their heads out of their asses and we could get on with it. You have to understand since the time of your birth the goal was to keep the truth from you, brainwash you and keep you not thinking for yourself and under control. Start using your own brain and stop believing the lies you are being fed day in and day out on the television. It’s more controlled than you are aware. The internet will soon be following suit if they have their way so you better learn some of this info quickly.

    • p1t1o

      Give me a link to a government document that confirms chemtrails.

      By the way, the way you speak discredits you, you sound hysterical, nobody will listen to you unless you re-vamp the way you communicate.

  • Cory

    The sad part is, these morons vote and that’s why this country is the shitshow that it is.

  • You could put any idea out there and you could find morons who would follow it until death. Heaven’s Gate cult was just one of many examples. There is a growing group of idiots who believe the world will end in 2012. Hopefully they just check out, the world will be a better place.

    Cue the “It’s true, it’s true!!!!!!!!” people.

  • Tina

    Naming something as a “conspiracy theory” shouldn’t make it less possible to be real.

    Nowdays, more than ever, great number of those “conspiracies”, tend to matterialise and take place in front of our eyes. Big Interests, Big games..and the people is deceived by the media to focus their attention the other way…The former prime minister of Greece (the one that betrayed Greek people by giving Greece as a gift to the banks), has stated 2 years ago that the world should have a Global Government.

    Interesting .. won’t you think?

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  • lollo

    wandering,(i’m not a racist)why english language become so familiar,known and used in some country(not as a main language) are actually not an english country(some asian country actually)..its seem like,the worldwide domination conspiracy theory are true

  • chris

    i highly think its not logical for a government to experiment with our lives to that high of degree. i dont dispute that they dont but with aids and other such things it would be a big gamble for them to do that. if what they create becomes uncontrolable then there is no government because their is no people to govern.

  • realitylooms

    Your UNCLE laid it all down? Well, that’s it finally. Conclusive inarguable truth behind the conspiracy. That’s a wrap kids.

  • derik

    its quite a powerful word “conspiracy theory”.. much like terrorism. its just a word!! Please ignore the simple minded people who read bullshit newspaper’s, t.v and radio! We face the biggest global issues of enslavement and poverty since the dawn of time. The truth hurts, but how can few still doubt the corruption out there! You are a mug just like the rest of the majority…OPEN YOUR EYES!
    Although Idrc, believe your politician friend you know so well… i’d much rather listen to someone who cares about thy neighbour!

    p.s. Zeitgeist and the disclosure project if you want more worth-while watches. (both on youtube)

  • The Bot Machine

    Most conspiracy theories are made up by ordinary people who don’t know a thing about politics,economy or science. When they’re looking for evidence they become very biased and therefore believes in everything they hear that can support their thing and claim it is a fact even though it’s not. I do believe that some conspiracy theories might be truthful to some extent but I also believe that 99,9% of all conspiracy theories are completely wrong. Sure, we know that the American government do have secrets, but they are not nearly as sensational as some people think, I also think that some information should be kept a secret. You wouldn’t be very happy if someone suddenly put your whole private life on the web for anyone to watch.

    • p1t1o


  • Ash

    I really don’t believe in any of these theories maybe with exception of number eight.

  • Ash

    Also, what about the conspiracy theory stating the Holocaust never happened?

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  • Anonymous

    we are only pawns. there is only a small number of people that have the control. if they have to kill a few hundreds, heck a few thousands, it won’t be a problem. Believe me. Do NOT think yourself so important and valuable that a government or people in power would not be willingly to sacrifice lives for an ends to a means.








  • John son of John

    Evidence recenly discovered that Kennedy had been shot by two or more people. The earth is actually COOLING in the past 200 years the average global temperature dropped 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit and in the middle ages the temperature was more than four times the modern average (this is from a scientific study on a rock that keeps worldwide centennial tempuraters in the artic.)

    • @ John son of John. Then explain to me as to why its been predicted that Polar Bears may be extinct by the year 2040 and as to why Greenland is melting at the same rate as the flow of the Colorado River.

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    I like this post, enjoyed this one thank you for posting. “No trumpets sound when the important decisions of our life are made. Destiny is made known silently.” by Agnes de Mille.

  • kenechukwu

    this is great n riculous

  • @John son of John. As far as Kennedy being shot more than twice, go on to YOU TUBE and type in JFK assassination “Grassy Knoll” that should make you think twice that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone. And its almost a “Give-in” that he did NOT act alone. Also look up Jack Ruby (the man who shot and killed Lee Harvey Oswald) and how Ruby was treated in prison where he died only a few years later. Pay close attention about this “injection” that he received frequently and was never told what he was injected with.

  • David

    i think the “UFO” is now proven to be a weather balloon. i am doing a research paper on conspiracy theories so this site is great for me!

  • BOB

    this is all true so go SPERM WHALES!

  • Anonymous

    I am Jewish and i find it appalling that people actually believe that the Jewish people want world domination when all they want is to have a small pice of land (Israel) where they can live peacefully.

  • Adrf

    911 was all george w bush plan he ordered marines to do it. The alien thing is crap but there is life on mars not talking smart aliens but just big bugs I guess you could say. I might figure out some more things and i got this info from a high ranking marine.

    • Let me get this straight. George Bush set it up and he used the U.S. Marines to do it? You sir, are a moron. Your marine friend recognizes it easily and knew he wouldn’t have trouble getting that one by you. Read a book. Go to skoo.

    • Jaybobi

      how the hell does a high ranking marine have access to life on mars

  • I would also recommend the Egyptian pyramids; The whole secret about them is that they’re diamonds, not pyramids (Check Eddie Griffin’s explanation on Youtube, I’ll provide the link asap)
    Another saying that other pyramids, the same form as the Egyptian ones, were found in many places such as China.

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  • AnonymousSOURCE

    JFK. best theory.

    • object4

      Just that Oswald had come to believe that unless he had as much coverage as those in the media such as Kennedy and other famous people, he meant nothing near what he felt was meaningful to him. He’d totally bought into the idea that being famous was all that meant anything by listening to the news too much, the radio the TV and all. TV and the national news was coming more into prominence then and he saw being a part of that as being “something” or “somebody” and that if he couldn’t make it into that light, he was insignificant and nobody. If he were my friend, I might have said, “Lee, man, you were in the marines and that is something it is damn tough and hard to be and get through. What the hell. Nobody is everybody else. You’ve got your talents and you can do what you will with them, but you don’t have to be famous to be somebody dude!” It is a tragic story of a guy who wanted attention and didn’t get enough at the wrong time in his life I gather.

  • Jim

    I thought this up today at work. Admittedly, I was tired. We’d just gotten in a couple of copies of “Men in Black”, which incidently, you will probably agree, works so well as a comedy. All the different variations of the types of aliens is literally laughable. What if since the “big bang” or whatever started this huge thing, since it happened at one time, marked “GO”? The different chemical situations occurred in many places and developed as they have into biological realities, and now, they are all similar to us out there where they are, such as us at least having different languages, but naturally discovering verbs and nouns and other parts of language or having pictographic commuication such as Chinese and other languages. We would not have had any aliens here yet, but it would possibly be in the interests of our space agencies around the world to propagate the idea that alien beings were indeed visiting our planet, and this could have been stumbled upon quite accidentally I suppose. See if the glove fits. How about Roswell? Which “hoaxes”, if they were hoaxes don’t fit or which ones can’t you find an explanation for in terms of how it would fit in with this idea? This apparently is not a new idea and I suggest it as nothing more than a single possiblity. It would seem that one of our main problems will be how to avoid a ship heading towards earth at breakneck speed as we head towards some other star system we’ve determined is home to habbitable planets or other earths, which is just what we’d be expecting to find, just because of this other idea. Have you ever noticed how they always say your brain controls the systems in your body and regulates it all? Maybe it does, that is at the direction of someone or something inside of us, or maybe “somewhere” else, because I can assure you, I’d have no idea how to direct those things, would you? Could that be why some people believe in something called God? This is not about God, but it’s about space travel and beings from other planets and star systems. Which one of you knows how to use your brain to direct the production of chemicals and growth of tissues in your body? So, there must be something inside us that does, but we don’t know that thing or part of us the way we know how to tie our shoes or how to drink water. Who can prove that the brain which we understand is a portion of “us”, is “directing” these things? If we don’t know how to do it, who does? This thing that we call the adaptation that biology does over years and years and years and evolves us to be different along the way…how does it know how to do that and does that mean that it doesn’t happen in the brain or that maybe it happens in the cells. Isn’t it sort of besides the point? For instance, where is this coming from that is coming from my hands out through the keyboard? If there aren’t scary space aliens, how could so many successful movies have been made about it all? Why would anyone want to watch a movie about humans from other planets finding our band of humans on this planet? Think about it. A lot of people need to have work in our country and space agencies are a mainstay way to employ technically smart people. And, possibly a secure place to brainstorm in. Try these ideas out for yourself and be honest. Do they work?

  • Vincent Ezenwa

    Good information is better than machine gun loaded with bullets.

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  • loni

    And…….Here we go. Money makes the world go round. It always has and so always will. Of course the Governments lie. And yes I believe the elections are fixed everywhere. Even in the God fearing Americas. Wars not only generate the ever loving buck. They also keep the population numbers down by killig-off a generation or two or three. Our doctors dont cure us anymore. They just mask our aches and pains. Everything is;”The baby-boomers fault. There is no such thing as privacy anymore. Thanks to reality T.V. Which frankly I am just plain tired of. This may be the era of information. But too much is too darned much. Our childrens heroes are drug addicts. Abusers of most priviliges with God-like EGOES. And this includes our government heads and the elite. The news is fixed. Programing is fixed and everyone is sensitive. Women are growing proverbial balls for the sake of keeping their families alive and thriving. Our university and college tuitions are choking our future leaders before they even get the chance to apply themselves and prove they can and will improve this awful legacy of screw-ups. There is conspiracy every where. Oh and…Micheal Jackson IS ALIVE. The White rabbit is nigh. lol. If there were no wars..They would have to shut down the legions. No veterens.We are only cubes. The earth is only a grid.

  • So many theories from so many people all the evidence cannot be wrong

  • faisal

    Their are some conspiracy in your website. Why do not tell the conspiracy theory of how Israel was created. How they killed the native people of the region the Palestinian people and were taken out of their land.

    These are one of the burning issue more important than US conspiracy theories.

  • Daniel

    I think this list was very interesting and I more or less understands that some people believe in this. However, I am surprised that it was such an insane amount of people believing it, especially the 9/11 part. I mean how can someone actually believe that something that was made up by sensationalist journalists and attention seekers are actually true. I think I’m just going to state my opinion in these different cases and why I think that each and every one of them is total bullshit. I do not have tons of evidence to back me up but at least the just of basic logic might make up for that.

    1. That 9/11 was an inside job seem to be the most controversial on the whole list and there is so many stories to the whole thing that I can’t even barely bring up it all, however I think it’s strange that people seem to think that a huge Boeing 767 filled with an enormous amount of jet fuel, flying into a skyscraper is not sufficient to bring it down. Yeah, I know that jet fuel can’t burn as hot as the melting temperature for steel, but that doesn’t change the fact that so many other things in the buildings were burning than just jet fuel and that steel doesn’t have to melt to be critically weakened and finally collapse. The explosions heard in the building during the fire is nothing strange, I mean the buildings contained tons of flammable materials such as gas. It is a building containing thousands of people it’s nothing strange about explosive material being contained somewhere in the huge buildings that blew up after the fire reached it. As far as the explosions heard in the building before the initial impact, I can only say that they come from very questionable sources and I mean, drunk-guy-in-the-bar questionable, The fact is even though I’ve been looking for different sources that supports the claim I’ve only found it on forums and comment sections like this one and different unknown websites no one knows (or cares) about which makes them highly doubtful. Also it’s a well known fact that Al-Qaeda have taken responsibility for the attacks and to think that the US and Al-Qaeda have been cooperating in this whole thing just so they can fight each other is just way to strange to actually believe in, and after looking at the end result absolutely no one have earned anything good out of this. Not the US, not Al-Qaeda, no bankers, no anyone. I do admit that there are some anomalies with the 9/11 attacks that are strange, but not so strange that they can’t be explained. Basically any large event have some strange facts/myths surrounding them the same goes for 9/11 which was an exceptionally big event. However since attention seekers have no problem looking for anomalies in every useless little detail it’s nothing strange that we finally seem to find one thing that is out of the ordinary. It’s like those people who believes in ghosts and always manages to find strange things absolutely everywhere and makes ordinary people (like myself and everyone else out there) amazed and puzzled, but when examined by professional scientists turns out to be nothing out of the ordinary.

    2. The Roswell Incident is one of those incidents where conspiracy theorists have to question current scientific knowledge and therefore gets even less support from scientific intellectuals than other conspiracy theorists. Science claims that we have never had any scientifically proven contact with ,or discovery of, any intelligent life (or life at all for that matter) not originating from earth. Therefore it’s almost only UFO hunters who actually believe the story and UFO hunters is almost always considered pseudo-scientific which means that they’re investigating fraud science. Also the thing with Area-51, have anyone ever heard of a non-secret military base out there. There is no reason to believe that Area-51 would be open to public, since it is after all, a military base. Also I think the US Military would be smart enough to contain downed UFO:s in a secret military base instead of yet another one.

    3. I’m actually open to that John F. Kennedy was the victim of a plot with more people than just Lee Harvey Oswald, however just as with the Oklahoma bombing it was nothing but some frustrated citizens who wanted to make a change and since Oswald was murdered before anyone could question him about a bigger plot no one would ever know if there where any. However since a group of uninteresting ordinary people is not good enough for sensationalists they scaled it up and came up with ideas that nobody will be able to prove ever. However most likely he operated alone since an investigation even though flawed would probably still catch any other perpetrator.

    4. Ah, the Global Warming is fake theory. The conservatives response to all the left-wing based, anti-American conspiracy theories. This one manages to actually draw some attention from both sides of the spectrum strangely. But even though the global warming danger might be a little hype it’s certainly not fake. The world constantly changes temperature, it’s a well known fact and that we’re in the middle of a temperature rise right now is also widely accepted. However that seems to be the only fact conspiracy theorists can base their arguments on. They refuse to accept that the rise in temperature is quite more intense than it has ever been recorded in human history. Also the fact that it seem to have been increasing with the amount of carbon dioxide, methane and other gases humans have been letting out in the atmosphere. I find it quite strange that people refuse to see that similarity and to all those who claim that Carbon Dioxide is what plants breathe and therefore aren’t harmful in the atmosphere. Yes plants do breathe in carbon dioxide and yes we do need carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, however not in these insane amounts as for the time being. It’s like saying that it’s nothing dangerous if the whole atmosphere is filled with oxygen just because us humans breathe it. If the atmosphere was filled with to much oxygen most places were fires would occur would be several times worse, also to high percentage of oxygen in the air would be toxic.

    5. The death of Princess Diana was evidently something no one wanted to be an accident, since her death managed to create conspiracy theories even though there were no suspicious circumstances at all surrounding the accident. It was just an “ordinary” car crash. Even the driver of the car died and I have some trouble believing that an agent of any intelligence agency is willing to take his only just to kill a more or less (in politics) uninteresting person. The only one benefiting from her death would probably be the British royal family or the Church Of England, but they couldn’t possibly have the resources to cover up such a thing.

    6. Global Jewry as far as I’m concerned is something Nazis and other anti Semites have thought up just so they can have something to blame on. The Protocols have been proven a hoax by basically every literary knowledgeable person ever studying it, since it’s basically just plagiarizing works of fiction by other authors such as Maurice Joly. Need I say more.

    7. The idea that the moon landings are fake comes mostly from different analyzes of photographs from the events. However it has been proven by so many independent investigations that there was nothing strange going on during the moon landings. Also why would NASA stage a failed moon landing attempt, the Apollo 13 event. Nobody wants to appear incompetent not even NASA.

    8. This conspiracy theory is proven partially true. The US government and other American organizations were warned about a attack on Pearl Harbor mostly by spies. However the reason they didn’t intervene was not because they wanted it to happen, but because they didn’t believe that a (at the time) peace loving country like the USA would be attacked by outside forces.

    9. I’m not sure what to say about this one. I don’t believe in God and therefore not in revelations. I think that it doesn’t matter at all whether the Third Secret of Fátima was fully released or not since it was still just bullshit in the first place.

    10. I hadn’t heard about the Philadelphia Experiment before but after reading the article I thought that I really didn’t need to do more research to prove this one false. The whole thing is so far off that you almost can’t believe it. Which is basically what every conspiracy theory is about. There is no chance in hell that anyone could believe the invisible thing to be achievable in 1943.

    I just hope some people might realize how easy it is to make a sensationalist story seem true by manipulating the truth. But even though I don’t believe in these conspiracy theories I think the article was damn interesting.

  • Michelle

    You should definitely do some research before claiming that the government created AIDS. AIDS is a result of HIV, and there is more than enough evidence proving that it was introduced to African huntsmen from chimpanzees. I’m not saying that I don’t believe any of these conspiracy theories are true, but before you go around making claims, please do some research. Because yes, sometimes, they can “magically appear,” and the magic is in evolution.

    • So your uncle told you, so it’s true? You are definitely within the 75% of americans who are as sharp as a stump.

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  • Post a list like this and the 911 truthers come out of the woodwork.

  • Jaybobi

    just scanning the comments i saw so many examples of horrific stupidity that i have to post this so…
    1) The government probably doesn’t always act in the best moral or ethical interest but it’s safe to assume that it’s because of money, not ‘race wars’ or goddamn world domination.
    2) Jews, black people, or reptiles did not blow up the twin towers
    3) Christianity has a noble message at heart but it has been so corrupted throughout the last two millenia that you cannot assume all christians act with pure intentions. Some christians are dicks.
    4) If you take the bible literally you are a crazy person.

    5) Occum’s Razor. The simplest explanation is probably true. (the simplest explanation is not lizard people)

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  • Eric Patterson, Th.D.

    There is NO respected researcher who believes that the “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” is authentic. In fact, it was conclusively proven in a series of articles printed in The London Times in August 16th – 18th, 1921 to be plagiarized from the French book “Dialogue aux Enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu” (Dialogues in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu) by Maurice Joly, written in 1864. The book presents fictional discussions between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, but was in fact a criticism of the policies of Napoleon III. The “Protocols” first appear in Russia in 1900 with virtually the entire “Dialogues” reproduced, but with the names replaced with mythical Jewish meetings. Unfortunately, the Protocols are still considered authentic in most Muslim countries where antisemitism is rampant and are used as a method of indoctrinating and poisoning the minds of Muslim youth who then grow up and spend their lives believing the Jews are evil conniving people bent on world domination.

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