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Mysteries

Top 10 Unsolved Mysteries

Jamie Frater . . . Comments

This list comprises the most famous unsolved mysteries known to man that really defy rational explanation or are just outright strange. Mysteries have been a constantly popular subject on Listverse and searching for “mysteries” will give you a huge number of extra lists to satisfy your curiosity.

Use the comments below to tell us what mysteries you think are missing or worthy of a mention so we can include them in future lists.

10

The taos hum

399Px-Taosnmview
The ‘Taos Hum’ is a low-pitched sound heard in numerous places worldwide, especially in the USA, UK, and northern europe. It is usually heard only in quiet environments, and is often described as sounding like a distant diesel engine. Since it has proven indetectable by microphones or VLF antennae, its source and nature is still a mystery.

In 1997 Congress directed scientists and observers from some of the most prestigious research institutes in the nation to look into a strange low frequency noise heard by residents in and around the small town of Taos, New Mexico. For years those who had heard the noise, often described by them as a “hum”, had been looking for answers. To this day no one knows the cause of the hum.

Read all about history’s most bizarre unsolved mysteries in Listverse.com’s Epic Book of Mind-Boggling Lists at Amazon.com!

9

Black Dahlia

Es1A
In 1947 the body of 22 year old Elizabeth Short was found in two pieces in a parking lot in Los Angeles. According to newspaper reports shortly after the murder, Short received the nickname “Black Dahlia” at a Long Beach drugstore in the summer of 1946, as a play on the then-current movie The Blue Dahlia. However, Los Angeles County district attorney investigators’ reports state the nickname was invented by newspaper reporters covering the murder. In either case, Short was not generally known as the “Black Dahlia” during her lifetime.

Many rumours and tales have spread about the Black Dahlia, and the investigation (one of the largest in LA history) never found the killer.


8

Comte de Saint Germain

Stgermainbw
The Count of St. Germain (allegedly died February 27, 1784) was a courtier, adventurer, inventor, amateur scientist, violinist, amateur composer, and a mysterious gentleman; he also displayed some skills with the practice of alchemy. He was known as ‘Der Wundermann’ — ‘The Wonderman’. He was a man whose origin was unknown and who disappeared without leaving a trace.

Since his death, various occult organizations have adopted him as a model figure or even as a powerful deity. In recent years several people have claimed to be the Count of St. Germain. (Note that St Germain was never regarded as a saint by the Roman Catholic Church – the “st.” before his name refers to his alleged home).

7

Voynich manuscript

542Px-Voynich Manuscript Bathtub2 Example 78R Cropped
The Voynich Manuscript is a medieval document written in an unknown script and in an unknown language. For over one hundred years people have tried to break the code to not avail. The overall impression given by the surviving leaves of the manuscript suggests that it was meant to serve as a pharmacopoeia or to address topics in medieval or early modern medicine. However, the puzzling details of illustrations have fueled many theories about the book’s origins, the contents of its text, and the purpose for which it was intended.

The document contains illustrations that suggest the book is in six parts: Herbal, Astronomical, Biological, Cosmological, Pharmaceutical, and recipes.

6

The Zodiac Killer

Zodiac-Killer-1
The Zodiac killer was active in Northern California for ten months in the late 1960s. He killed at least five people, and injured two. He comitted the first two murders with a pistol, just inside the Benecia border. In his second shooting in Vallejo, he attempted to kill two people, but one survived despite gunshots to the head and neck. 40 minutes later the police recieved an anonymous phone call from a man claiming to be their killer and admitting to the murders of the previous two victims. One month three letters were sent to Newspapers in California containing a cypher that the killer claimed would give them his name. They cypher was decrypted to read:

“I LIKE KILLING PEOPLE BECAUSE IT IS SO MUCH FUN IT IS MORE FUN THAN KILLING WILD GAME IN THE FORREST BECAUSE MAN IS THE MOST DANGEROUE ANAMAL OF ALL TO KILL SOMETHING GIVES ME THE MOST THRILLING EXPERENCE IT IS EVEN BETTER THAN GETTING YOUR ROCKS OFF WITH A GIRL THE BEST PART OF IT IS THAE WHEN I DIE I WILL BE REBORN IN PARADICE AND THEI HAVE KILLED WILL BECOME MY SLAVES I WILL NOT GIVE YOU MY NAME BECAUSE YOU WILL TRY TO SLOI DOWN OR ATOP MY COLLECTIOG OF SLAVES FOR MY AFTERLIFE EBEORIETEMETHHPITI” The last eighteen letters have not been decrypted.

While Arthur Leigh Allen was the prime suspect, all of the evidence was against him being the killer. To this day the Zodiac murders have not been solved.

Fascinated by the Zodiac Killer? Read the mind-bending true crime thriller The Most Dangerous Animal of All at Amazon.com!

5

The Babushka Lady

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During the analysis of the film footage of the assasination of John F. Kennedy in 1963, a mysterious woman was spotted. She was wearing a brown overcoat and a scarf on her head (the scarf is the reason for her name as she wore it in a similar style to Russian grandmothers – also called babushkas). The woman appeared to be holding something in front of her face which is believed to be a camera. She appears in many photos of the scene. Even after the shooting when most people had fled the area, she remained in place and continued to film. Shortly after she is seen moving away to the East up Elm Street. The FBI publically requested that the woman come forward and give them the footage she shot but she never did.

In 1970 a woman called Beverly Oliver came forward and claimed to be the Babushka Woman, though her story contains many inconsistencies. She is generally regarded as a fraud. To this day, no one knows who the Babushka Woman is or what she was doing there. More unusual is her refusal to come forward to offer her evidence.


4

Mary Celeste

Mary Celeste 250203
Mary Celeste was launched in Nova Scotia in 1860. Her original name was “Amazon”. She was 103 ft overall displacing 280 tons and listed as a half-brig. Over the next 10 years she was involved in several accidents at sea and passed through a number of owners. Eventually she turned up at a New York salvage auction where she was purchased for $3,000. After extensive repairs she was put under American registry and renamed “Mary Celeste”.

The new captain of Mary Celeste was Benjamin Briggs, 37, a master with three previous commands. On November 7, 1872 the ship departed New York with Captain Briggs, his wife, young daughter and a crew of eight. The ship was loaded with 1700 barrels of raw American alcohol bound for Genoa, Italy. The captain, his family and crew were never seen again. The ship was found floating in the middle of the Strait of Gibraltar. There were no signs of struggle on board and all documents except the captain’s log were missing.

In early 1873, it was reported that two lifeboats grounded in Spain, one with a body and an American flag, the other containing five bodies. It has been alleged that these could have been the remains of the crew of the Mary Celeste. However, the bodies were apparently never identified.

3

Jack the Ripper

Jacktheripper3
In the later half of 1888, London was terrorrised by a series of murders in the east end (largely in the Whitechapel area). The name Jack the Ripper was taken from a letter sent to a newspaper at the time by someone claiming to be the killer. The victims were typically prostitutes who had their throats cut and bodies mutilated. In some cases the bodies were discovered just minutes after the ripper had left the scene.

The police at the time had many suspects but could never find sufficient evidence to convict anyone. In modern times there has even been some speculation that Prince Albert Victor was the murderer. Even with modern police methods, no further light has been shed on the murders in recent times. To this day no one knows who the ripper was.


2

Bermuda Triangle

Bermudatriangle-1
The Bermuda triangle is an area of water in the North Atlantic Ocean in which a large number of planes and boats have gone missing in mysterious circumstances. Over the years many explanations have been put forward for the disappearances, including bad weather, alien abductions, time warps, and suspension of the laws of physics.
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Although substantial documentation exists to show that many of the reports been exaggerated, there is still no explanation for the unusually large number of disappearances in the area.

1

Shroud of Turin

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The shroud of Turin is a linen cloth bearing the image of a man who had apparently died of crucifixion. Most Catholics consider it to be the burial shroud of Jesus Christ. It is currently held in the Cathedral of St John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. Despite many scientific investigations, no one has yet been able to explain how the image has been imprinted on the shroud and despite many attempts, no one has managed to replicate it. Radiocarbon tests date it to the middle ages, however apologists for the shroud believe it is incorrupt – and carbon dating can only date things which decay.

Prior to the middle ages, reports of the shroud exist as the Image of Edessa – reliably reported since at least the 4th century. In addition, another cloth (the Sudarium) known even from biblical times (John 20:7) exists which is said to have covered Christ’s head in the tomb. A 1999 study by Mark Guscin, a member of the multidisciplinary investigation team of the Spanish Center for Sindonology, investigated the relationship between the two cloths. Based on history, forensic pathology, blood chemistry (the Sudarium also is reported to have type AB blood stains), and stain patterns, he concluded that the two cloths covered the same head at two distinct, but close moments of time. Avinoam Danin (a researcher at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem) concurred with this analysis, adding that the pollen grains in the Sudarium match those of the shroud.

Due to popular demand I have written another similar article: Another 10 Unsolved Mysteries.

Jamie Frater

Jamie is the owner and chief-editor of Listverse. He spends his time working on the site, doing research for new lists, and collecting oddities. He is fascinated with all things historic, creepy, and bizarre.

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  • pedro

    In french, the spelling of “count” is comte.

    • live football

      True..

  • Mugen

    About the Bermuda’s Triangle:
    The marine insurer Lloyd’s of London has determined the Triangle to be no more dangerous than any other area of ocean, and does not charge unusual rates for passage through the region. United States Coast Guard records confirm their conclusion. In fact, the number of supposed disappearances is relatively insignificant considering the number of ships and aircraft which pass through on a regular basis.

    The Coast Guard is also officially skeptical of the Triangle, noting that they collect and publish, through their inquiries, much documentation contradicting many of the incidents written about by the Triangle authors. In one such incident involving the 1972 explosion and sinking of the tanker V.A. Fogg in the Gulf of Mexico, the Coast Guard photographed the wreck and recovered several bodies [8] despite one Triangle author stating that all the bodies had vanished, with the exception of the captain, who was found sitting in his cabin at his desk, clutching a coffee cup (Limbo of the Lost by John Wallace Spencer, 1973 edition).

    Skeptical researchers, such as Ernest Taves and Barry Singer, have noted how mysteries and the paranormal are very popular and profitable. This has led to the production of vast amounts of material on topics such as the Bermuda Triangle. They were able to show that some of the pro-paranormal material is often misleading or not accurate, but its producers continue to market it. They have therefore claimed that the market is biased in favour of books, TV specials, etc. which support the Triangle mystery and against well-researched material if it espouses a skeptical viewpoint.

  • jfrater

    Mugen: Thanks for that information – it is very interesting and my own personal view on these types of things is one of skepticism.

    pedro: Thanks – I will correct that

    • Andrew

      There's a reply button for a reason, click it if you're going to make a response to someone.

      • Jakeryder

        There was no reply button in 2007 as all of us who have been here since day one remember.

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  • profesormarciano

    really nice post

    great

    i knew about most of them, cause i love these, but the “new” ones are really thrilling

    (sorry 4 my english)

  • jfrater

    Thanks profesormarciano :)

  • tod

    The shroud of Turin is a fake. It has been dated and found to be only about 600 yrs old ( or so). the crucifixion marks are in the wrong place. They should be in the wrists not the hands. Your hands would not be able to hold your weight. The only interesting thing about it is how it was faked. Some researchers have linked it to DaVinchi and may have been made using early photographic like chemicals. As far as the so called Bermuda Triangle goes, ships sink, planes crash,get over it. When freight trains in Minnesota disappear then you have something.

    • Judge

      stigmata is proof that the holes should be in the hands.believe it or not, hitting the bone of the middle finger hurts more than the wrist because one is a joint and the other is a long bone.besides the shroud is not the subject.are you attempting to be faith shaker?

      • I’m on your side in terms of being men of faith, but tod is right about one thing: nails through the hands simply wouldn’t support the weight of a crucified body. The wrists are a much stronger anchor point. But as someone mentioned below, the shroud of Turin does actually show the marks in the wrists, not the hands, so tod’s point is moot.

        • FuzzyWinker

          Crucifixion is not based around weight hanging from either hands or wrists, many crucifixes were built with a small stand protruding from the body of the cross so that the person could stand on it. Many representations of Christ actually show him standing on the support, and while they are not contemporary representations it is still evident that there was a stand for the person to support themselves with. This means both the hands and wrists could be nailed effectively.

      • faith shaker

        shutup fag its fake get over it

    • sinking of ships is because of Buoyancy

    • James

      Actually, if you look up the Shroud of Turin and look at the images the left hand is covering the right wrist. The wound in the left hand is clearly in the wrist. The shroud was also in a fire in the middle ages. It has been proven that the smoke from a fire will make accurate carbon dating impossible.

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  • jfrater

    Tod: the Shroud has not been proven fake – it is generally accepted that the part of the cloth tested was from repairs made in the middle ages. No one knows exactly the method used for crucifixion so we can't say the marks are in the wrong place. Also, regardless of the connections made with Da Vinci etc. no one (not even modern science) has been able to make a replica of the Shroud. In addition, the scientific evidence from the Sudarium matches it to the Shroud (pollens etc.) and the Sudarium is known from at LEAST 600AD (though it is also mentioned in the Gospel of John). They are even made from the same cloth.

    As far the triangle, even science says the amount of planes and ships to go down are well above the average. Maybe if the freight train from minnesota rode through the Bermuda triangle it would vanish? :)

    • Avi

      “Even science says”? Science does not have a mouth. It cannot talk. Science doesn’t say anything. Scientists say things, but that doensn’t make them true.

    • Nice Explanation, some people say that bermuda triangle mystery is as considered of buoyancy

  • profesormarciano

    About The Shroud of TURIN: The crucifixion marks are NOT in the hands, they´re in the wrists. Show me any image, please, where those marks are shown in the hands. Every image I’ve seen show the crucifixion marks right in the wrists.
    This is, in fact, one of the multiple mysteries about Turin’s Shroud, cause every (or most) painting about Jesus crucifixion clearly show the nailings in the hands, not in the wrists.
    must say that tod is right: “the hands wouldn’t be able to hold your weight”.

  • jfrater

    The depictions of Christ’s crucifixion which show nails through the hand are probably due to the biblical reference in the Gospel of John which says Christ was crucified through the hands; however the Greek text word for hands (????) had a larger use than our word hand and refers to any part of the forearm to (and including) the hand.

    There is a very large crucifix at the London Oratory which shows the nail going through the wrists and not the hands.

  • jfrater

    Updoc: wow – thanks for that – fancy us all being tricked by the historians for the last 2000 years! You offer such strong proof that we have no choice but to rewrite all the history books. Where were all the smart people like you when they were writing all the lies?

  • Updoc

    The Shroud of Turin is an obvious fake. There was no historical Jesus.

    • Nunia

      Fake shroud? Yes
      No Jesus? Please…

      • splatimus

        I`m with you Nunia,Updoc you know where you are going

  • Solo

    Shroud of Turin is a fake from the 1500's. It's been dated fairly accurately. It's been reproduced with techniques available at the time. The explanation for a fake shroud are better than the "inexplicable" image from the face of Jesus itself.

    Of course that does not prevent people from believing it's legitimate. Like they believe the bible is the word of God (when clearly it is man made) or that the earth is 6000 years old.

    It is in human nature to want to convince others of their own convictions, nobody holds opinions knowing those are false. But ever since I've been told Santa Claus was not real I take any extraordinary claim with a good dose of doubt.

    • Elaine

      not a fake ! There is overwhelming evidence to disprove the sceptics like you

  • jfrater

    Does no one do any research here? Solo: no one has been able to replicate the shroud – if you think they have, can you past a link to the evidence? It is also now generally accepted by scientists that the part of the shroud tested was from one of the repairs which we know happened after it was damaged in the middle ages. No one has, as yet, carbon tested a piece of the original linen. You are all welcome to comment but at least try to give some validation to your views :)

    Also, if you read the Wikipedia article, you will see that no one actually knows how the image is composed – you can't replicate something if you don't know how it is made.

    • Ian Osborne

      The cloth of the Shroud is in herringbone weave. Cloth of the Middle East in Jesus’ time was in plain weave. Also, according to Joe Nickell’s book, the image could have been produced using artistic techniques of the 14th century. A bishop of the time investigated the matter and announced at the time that a “clever artist” had confessed to having made it.

      According to Joe Nickell’s book, “The Verdict on the Shroud,” the Catholic Church concurs today that the scientific dating is accurate, but it nevertheless holds that the shroud should still be viewed as an object of veneration.

    • JC

      It is not generally accepted to have been from a repaired part, there are legitimate conflicting reports for both sides. Also shrouds from Jesus’ time have been found, belonging to Jewish High Preists, and the makeup of the shrouds are nothing like the Turin shroud, making it seem the shroud IS more likely from the middle ages

  • harry ballzonyah

    Monkeys throw their shit!!

    • B1a5ph3m3r

      Jesus titty fucking christ harry, why dont u do some goddamn research before u go off and accuse poor innocent little monkies of such a horrendis crime. That has never been proven, so until u bring some tangible evidence to the table you're the only one here throwing shit and its coming from your face.

  • Mike

    They solved the black dahlia becuase they had a big special about this guy heres the link http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/05/10/black.dahlia.ap/

  • Rufus T. Fish

    Shroud of Turn is a fake. Shroud shows a black man and everbody nos Jesus was a chink.

    • mikemick

      Hey u moron. its only the impression of a man, not a photograph.

  • betty

    i think if it was paint on that piece of cloth they would have detected that you idiot.

  • I am amazed at how quick people will cling to an idea if it appeals to them or their beliefs… Do just a little research (that means read more than 1 article) and then view what you believe is fact or fiction. For those of you that are ATHEIST, we all pray for you… But check this out, at the end of my Life I have something to look forward to… You guys have nothing… Correct me if I am wrong… Your lives must be so overwhelming to have to deal with all of us Christians. GOD BLESS YOU! (if he so chooses)

    • Andrew

      That's not true you Christians BELIEVE you have something to look forward to once you die; just because you think something is true doesn't mean it is. You people never have any proof or evidence to back up your claims either and the bible isn't proof. Any logical person understands that if there is an afterlife those that are good go to heaven and those that are bad go to hell; your belief in whether it exists or not is irrelevant.

  • In regard to the comment of “how convient and coincidental.” It’s called FAITH.

    • NameWhitenight

      Enter you Christ did or did not exist, I believe he did as a disbelieving young man; I lived to hold both my parents on their death beds and sat beside my grandmother the moment she left.
      I cut both the cords joining my children to their mother at the moment of their birth, in every incident I felt an undeniable presents.
      Those who have ears shall hear the rest will sit in silence
      The shroud is for those who have eyes the rest will live in the dark
      The bible was written by men, watch a movie lately everything writing by man is about greed and deception, sex and hate.
      The bible talks about judging yourself and being kind to others a divine influence was the light the writer used. The bible will be heard to be living by those who have ears the rest sit in silence
      Whitenight

  • Alejandro

    It has been proven that it is possible to crucify someone with the nails through they’re hands.. you only need a small pedestal for the person to rest theyre legs and/or for them to be attached by the waist and voila!

    • sid

      dood it wasnt a houdini show where after the crucifixion the romans went voila . get ur facts buddy

  • jfrater

    Solo – I am not going to debate the issue in comments here :) Just at least read the article (which you obviously haven’t done) because it states clearly that the scientists do not know how the image was made – it is not paint.

    Mike: thanks for that link – I will check it out.

    Isodora: it happens in the UK as well – there are a few spots in the world where people hear it – very weird!

    Rufus – dictionary.com?

    • Moses WHChong

      Please come to Ngabang, west Kalimantan, Indonesia to hear this phenomenon. It's humming every seconds of the day and night. Non stop. Serious!

      Moses WHChong

  • Solo

    "no one actually knows how the image is composed"

    I think it's been a while we mastered "paint on fabric".

    "part of the shroud tested was from one of the repairs which we know happened after it was damaged in the middle ages."

    How convenient and coincidental.

    I'll let you believe what you want to believe. It's fine with me. I'm not here to challenge your faith, even though you seem pretty eager to defend it. Like I said, Santa Claus.

    • To start off, no pigments or paints can be found on the fabric, IT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN PAINTED. So please dont repeat statements that have been disproven. It is also true that the scienticsts tested a part of the cloth that was repaired during the middle ages. A scienticst who bashed the people who doubted the carbon dating results discovered this. It is a fact that the carbon dating was conducted on different cloth than the one used to make the original shroud.

    • suan.lake

      to solo : you accuse us of being wanting to believe what we believe. how about you yourself ? haven’t you looked at yourself at mirror ? you are as stubborn as we are. you stick with the past discovery which support what you believe and refuse to look up for the further development of the research. any future discoveries which fail your belief deemed faked to you.

  • All this debate about christ and religion bah ! What about the crazy sound in Taos !? Why can we not record it or figure it out ? Im thinking magnatisim ?

    • Heavensrun

      More likely it’s not a real phenomena. People see and hear things that aren’t actually there all the time, especially if they’re trying to hear it.

  • Sam

    jfrater some of these people are just from ebaumsworld.com trying to ruin the comments.
    Any time you see them, if you can just delete them.

  • Andrea

    About Jack the Ripper, i read a book that was written by a forensic scientist/author and who all her research points to – but she’s been criticized for all of it. the book is portrait of a killer by patricia cornwell. it’s not necessarily true, but her research is pretty intense.

  • Daniel

    There was a programme on british tv, think it was bbc or itv cant remember for sure, that gave an explanation for the mary celeste. it showed that leaking alcohol vapour from the cargo caught fire in the hold blowing off the hatches and forcing the crew to abandon the ship as they thought it was going to burn and sink. But the temperature of the fire was not hot enough to set the wood on fire, or even to do any visible damage to it. They showed several experiments to prove this as well. This would explain the crew disappearing into the life boats mentioned in the story above and also why there appeared to be no sign of damage or struggle on the ship. Ill have a look to see if i can find a link to the programme and post it if i find it.

  • Daniel

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/inthenews/itn060522

    Its not quite a link to the programme itself but tells you a little about what the programme showed.

  • krunkisdead

    hey, how come no mention of croatoan? to the best of my knowledge thats a mystery that hasn't been solved as well. oh well no biggy. oh, and they know who jack the ripper was. if you've seen from hell you would know it was bilbo baggins. j/k man. great article.

    • FuzzyWinker

      Croatan was solved basically when historians realised that after the colony was disbanded, genetically impossible things began to occur within the local indian tribes which lived on the island of Croatan. Indians born with blue eyes and light brown hair, with a much paler complexion for example. So is is now assumed that the colonists left their town to go live and obviously breed with the native population. They were left to forge a new town with few supplies and no outside contact for over three years, so it is again assumed that they initially struggled in founding the settlement and left to co-exist with the natives who obviously could survive in such an environment.

  • Sigma Tempest

    OK, the shroud, even if it isnt a fake, was confirmed made 600 yrs ago, christ died 2000. anyone here actually pass math? come on now. As for the bermuda triangle, scientist theorize that large deposits of methane bubbles under the ground at the sea floor, get released and when they surface, they are sometimes strong enough to pull a ship under, even upset airflow enough to cause turbulance. its a theory, it isnt the one i agree with, but its a theory

  • jfrater

    Sigma: it was not confirmed – the piece of fabric tested came from one of the patches visible around the shroud – carbon dating has not been performed on the original sections of cloth and the Church is currently not allowing any sections to be cut as it would be considered a sacrilege.

    Daniel: great – thanks for that :)

  • jfrater

    krunkisdead: thanks for mentioning that – I hadn’t heard of it before you mentioned it – I am definitely going to do some reading on the tribe – it sounds very interesting.

    Sam: thanks for the headsup :)

  • dogmatic static

    What about the mysterious Marfa lights? In Marfa Texas?

  • jfrater

    dogmatic static: I hadn’t heard of those either – thanks. I am going to have to put together a users choice top 10 of extra bizarre things!

  • William Tell

    Loki- It’s called faith? You know what faith is, don’t you? Faith is the abandonment of logic. Faith is giving up on trying to actually figure out something real and instead going with what a bunch of other idiots say. For thousands of years people praised gods like Amun-Ra and Zeus. Where was your god then? You claim that the god who created the universe just decided he would lay low for a while? So all those people must be in hell now, right? Use your brain for a minute and actually think about your religion. IT MAKES NO SENSE.

  • jfrater

    Boy – we sure opened a can of worms here!

  • Jman

    This is why religion cannot be reasonably discussed.. Harryballzonya had the most interesting thing to say

  • doodoo-breath

    Everyone seems to be an expert, huh

  • ajvwaa

    Though the origins of the shroud of Turin are (obviously) disputed, it is interesting to consider that the Holy Catholic Church won’t allow “non-repaired” portions of the cloth to be tested. The obvious implication (to myself at least) is that the even the “confident” Church is terrified of being proven wrong by conclusive testing proving that the whole thing is fake…
    I suppose that the point of this post is not necessarily to point doubt towards the Shroud of Turin (though I don’t personally believe it to have any historical or scientific significance) but moreover to point skepticism towards the confidence of the church in the matter…

  • Margo

    Actually, there was a historical Jesus Christ. Son of god? nah. A teacher similar to buddha? Probably.

    • Heavensrun

      First off, there isn’t just one Buddha. It’s more of a title than a person. But that aside, you can make an argument that there’s no direct evidence that Jesus Christ was a real person. All historical accounts of him are second hand at best, and even within the bible, the stories about him conflict one another frequently. Personally, I think it’s pretty inconclusive either way.

  • jfrater

    ajvaa: The Church doesn’t fear that type of thing – if it were a total fake it would make no difference – the Church stands on its faith and dogmas, not a piece of cloth or a piece of art. The fact is, the church’s hands are tied because if there is even the remotest chance that it is real, they must ensure that it not be damaged because that would be sacrilege. So really, the Church is in a difficult position and we will never really know one way or the other.

    • sid

      please explain how it would be damaged, that church is based on the bible and nothing else and that too it seems was a complete fabrication. Read the oldest scripture know to man it was in a language(completely rebuffed by the western world) recently accredited and confirmed as genuine SANSKRIT , viz, the VEDAS

      • sid

        Ajva made a brilliant point

        • sid

          Also the GREATEST MYSTERY OF ALL RAM's BRIDGE

  • jfrater

    Daniel: interesting points on the hum – perhaps it is just a larger group of people in one area with particularly sensitive ears who are hearing it. It will be very interesting if they ever discover the real cause.

    As for your comments on the shroud – you are right that the three tests all found roughly the same date, but remember, the cloth they tested was from one of the repaired sections – not from the original, so it only proves the fact that the shroud was repaired in the middle ages (something we already knew from the history books). The sudarium was a different piece of cloth, you are right, but that doesn’t really have any bearing on the debate because if it were real, it would have been put on the head of the victim upon removal from the cross, and replaced in the tomb later with the burial shroud.

  • Jello

    The sample for the carbon dating was was actually part of reweave. They didn’t test multiple areas of the shroud. Ray Rogers article in Thermochimica Acta states:

    “Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.”

    sciencedirect.com article

  • Jello

    If anybody is a looking for a good website…go to the following:

    http://www.shroud.com/

    It was created and is maintained by the official photographer of STURP (the group of scientists who studied it in the 70s). Has many of the original scientific articles on it.

  • Daniel

    jfrater: no problem glad i could be of some use. I must admit tho, i am going to disagree slightly with the shroud. It was dated independently by 3 different organisations all of which returned a result of inbetween 600-700 years old. Which unfortunately puts the creation of the shroud rite in the middle of the rather costly and unsuccessful crusades. And with wat u said earlier, the shroud of turin and the Sudarium are not the same bit of cloth they are even woven differently, the shroud being a far more complex weave if i remember correctly. But arguin on the shroud is a bit of a marmite debate, theres no middle ground and its a debate in which people are very unlikely to change their stance.http://skepdic.com/shroud.html is a link that raises many interesting points. Not sure if i agree with everything but it does get you thinkin.

    As for the taos hum, my opinion is that it is almost certainly man made. If it sounds like an engine that would suggest to me that it has a relatively constant frequency which in turn would suggest, to me, man made. Especially as in japan the source was attributed to fans. As for it being plate movements, im unconvinced as why would it be heard in the UK and not in places of far higher tectonic activity? Id also say that the reason some people can hear it and others cant is that although strickly speaking humans can hear all the way down to 0Hz many cannot hear below 20Hz and the frequency of the hums reported have been below that. This would also explain why its hard to record as alot of audio equipment cuts off at 20-30Hz. Also wikipedia says people "hear" it worse at nite, surely this is less busy people, less cars and so on so less background noise to cover it up??

    Thts jst my 2cents tho :-P

    • suan.lake

      it could happen if the three pieces came from the same area of the cloth. Perhaps the nuns were too “stingy” to give away the more” significant area of the cloth for the research. ..as it would be a kind of reduction of the relic.

  • Daniel

    Im not convinced with this “repaired patch” arguement it seems pretty weak. That journal nature or whatever it was said that the fibres were deliberately chosen away from the patches and why would a team of clever scientists trying to date the original cloth take fibres from a repair? That seems like an awfully big oversight to make. Plus it was damaged in the fire in the 16th century which was only 500 years ago not the 600-700 quoted by the carbon dating. Admittedly carbon dating can make mistakes but none of the tests came back with a result of 500.

    I think ajvaa is getting close to the truth. The Catholic Church has had a lot of bad press of recent, just imagine the outcry if one of their most holy artifacts turned out to be a middle age fake to try and drum up support for the crusades. I think that would make alot of people question a lot more.

  • Daniel

    Jello- Ray Rogers was proven wrong by Walter McCrone and Joe Nickell according to the previous link I posted.

  • Jello

    Daniel,

    That Rogers article was from 2005. Walter McCrone died in 2002 so he could not have proven that article wrong.

  • Daniel

    Jello- ah ok sorry bout that. The link I posted did have them provin Rogers wrong bout something, must have been something different then, did sound similar tho. :-S But if the carbon dating was done in 1988 and the samples that were used were destroyed in the process how was Rogers able to examine them in 2004?

  • Jello

    He studied a couple thread left over. Granted not a great sample which Nickell does point out.

  • Katie

    Why do people question faith? Faith isnt necessarily a religous thing! And what IF these other gods such as Zeus or Amun-ra was "our" god represented to other cultures? Our religion does not have to make sense to those that do not believe in it. Because those that do believe in God dont need to have proof.. .they just have faith which sometimes is even better. I feel sorry for people that question everything and cant just accept that there may be something greater than science.

    • Heavensrun

      I feel sorry for people that question nothing and just can’t accept that there may be something greater than their god.

  • Daniel

    Yea the passage I read about McCrone was quoted and slightly out of context but I found the full article and it says that Rogers report of 2005 contradicts McCrone’s findings of 1996. Sounds like Roger’s and McCrone were always arguing with each other so I don’t know how much attention Id pay to one when they say the other has done wrong. Jost of my own head tho is it possible that those fibres were deliberately left behind because they were from a patch?

  • Mike

    Awesome article. I like how so many people (ahem: Solo) are trying to start arguments when at no point did you say these are all true. At least that’s what I thought when you refered to the atricle as Mysteries. I personally think the Shroud of Turin was not Jesus’ shroud; however it is fairly mysterious that they cannot reproduce it. Anyways like I said, really enjoyed the article.

  • Annoyed

    Guys, you’ve really got to chill out. Read it, enjoy it. If you don’t agree, get over it. Get a life, and stop trying to show off your “knowledge” to everyone else. GAH.

  • Stephanie

    Jack the Ripper, although the killer never convicted, there is numerous pieces of evidence that point to a suspect and they have made an entire book, in which the writer is convinced that Jack the Ripper is a man named Walter Sickert. Evidence consists of portraits he has drawn on the crime scene at which the victims were found. Drawings made on the Jack the Ripper letter and doodles of Sickert. Circumstantial evidence for some of the murders. An obsessive amount of letter sent by Sickert matches that of the Ripper and most convincing, his DNA found on some of these letters.

  • jive

    I agree with “Annoyed”. I thoroughly enjoyed the list.
    Jfrater: maybe if there’s a part two of this list (which judging by these posts is inevitable) you can include the Bimini Roads? Your thoughts….

  • C-money

    jfrater dont u have anything else better to do? ive seen u comment on this dumb thing like 14 times. get a life.

    and even if the shroud is fake its not that big of a deal.

    and that babushka lady, her name is Barbra Bush.

  • Kelsi

    Very interesting article! I did a bit of reading on the shroud, especially after reading all this debate about it, and you’re quite right, it is definately a mystery! Despite all the research put into it, still it is unconfirmed one way or another. I hadn’t heard of a lot of these, so I really enjoyed the article.
    For example, the Voynich manuscript? I’d love to read more about that. How can there be a publication in an unknown language/ script intended (possibly) for practical use? Very strange…I feel like the Babushka lady is like something out of a movie, you know, where the main character meets her in the end or something.
    Another mystery you left out, which I expected to be on the list: The disappearance of the original Roanoke colony. Perhaps that has since been solved and they need to update the history books, but every time I learned about that (several years), I found it interesting.

    Again, great article, thanks!

  • Kate

    Mike: That link for the Dahlia case doesn’t say they proved that the doctor killed her, only that his son is convinced that his father did it. Not once in the article does it say that the case is closed or that the late doctor is regarded as the murderer. The son just believes that his father killed Elizabeth Short.

  • Monteze

    I dont know if this has anything to do with the toas hum but it got me thinking when its quite i hear a hight pitched hum or what seems like one. a defening silence so to speak.. does anyone know what this is

  • Chris

    If you want to read a great book about the Shroud of Turin. Pick up “The Resurrection of the Shroud.” The author Mark Antonacci, does a terrific job of explaining (in detail) the scientific processes used to analyze the Shroud, their sucesses and failures. If you’re really interested in the subject, this the book.

  • monkey

    you know, this is why christians bother me, they jump all over you if you say there relics are fake or anything pointing out any inconsistancies. meh. oh well.

    the whole babushka chick thing is pretty intense though.
    i bet you it's a CIA operative or something like that. there to make sure and prove the whole thing went off without a hitch.

    • Jbrads

      OK…smartbutt…I’ll say it and I AM A CHRISTIAN…..”The Shroud of Turin IS a fake”… Now to prove my statement…. If you read the bible, the source of ALL Christians faith (and even some Muslims)…. It says that they WRAPPED Jesus’ body. The Shroud appears as if it was layed under his body and then over his head and down to his feet… you know, like wrapping meat in that huge white paper. Then they placed over his face a burial napkin, which means that there is two pieces to Jesus’ burial lines, not one, which is what the shroud is… SO… I will say it again… The Shroud IS A fake. and PS… I AM a Christian.

      • Samara

        Hey, dumbass, did you seriously just reply to a 4 year old post?

        • Voice From the Future

          I do that. The point is not to contact the original poster, but to get your viewpoint on the record for others who read this later. Like you, for instance…

  • you

    Tod you are a retard and suck at life

  • bamf

    ….what about who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?
    or where's waldo?
    and where in the world is carmen san diego?

    • Carmen San Diego

      I’m here. Sorry it took so long; I was stuck in traffic.

  • What about Jimmy Hoffa? I think that’s a good one that was left off the list.

  • jim c

    The mystery of the Bermuda Triangle has been solved. It is methane gas pockets so intense the ships lose their bouyancy and sink immediately and reach high enought o cut out the engines in planes.There was a real cool show about it on discovery last year.

  • read

    is it me or do you see a picture of a faded woman in the “The Babushka Lady” in the picture that is second from the right

  • GOD

    If I had known that it would have come to this erroneous banter and low grade stupidity from your inbreading and sin I would have never started this whole thing. Now that I think back on it I should have crucified the lot of you sanctimonious holier than thou bible thumpers when I had the chance. The world would defiantly be a better place for it.

  • ken

    RE: St. Germain,

    Go to: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2031 and download 2lcky10.txt.

    Andrew Lang recounts many citations from various sources including: “story of the Count’s being a child of a princess retired to Bayonne–namely, the ex-Queen of Spain–and of a Portuguese-Hebrew financier.”

  • mr. anderson

    all of you idiots trying to prove Christianity wrong are being stupid. We christians no more believe your atheism then you believe ours. Respect our religion, and well respect your views, dont keep trying to prove us wrong and attack us religiously, it portrays you as self-centered and uneducated. In our belief, yes there is a Christ, and we believe in Him and a Heavenly afterlife. Yours doesn’t, and you hold that belief strongly. Okay, whatever, get over it that we dont share the same views you do. This world is one of variety, and unless you haven’t made that connection already that means other people you talk to aren’t going to have the same views as you! Wow! Amazing! Now stop all your “faith is abandonment of logic” crap and stay on topic without shoving your “greater” religion on us.

  • ben

    Mr. Anderson-Although I disagree with your belief in Christ and God (I am one of those atheists) I think your one of the only smart people on the entire comments section. At least you can let other people go and understand they are different. I can’t say I like the christians (or atheists) that bicker, but I think you are awesome.

  • Dane

    As far as the Shroud of Turin is concerned, we’ll probably never get an accurate date on it since: A. The backing cloth sewn to it after it was damaged in a fire has contaminated it B. The smoke damage done to it from the fire has further contaminated it and C. The Catholic Church has refused to allow fibers be taken from it for radio isotope testing, which is much more accurate than carbon dating. However, the general scientific consensus is that the Shroud is not some mystical artifact. The fact that the artistry involved in making the Shroud has not been reproduced is not so remarkable when we take into account that: 1. How many serious collaborations has there been in an attempt to reproduce it and 2. No biological materia has been shown to be on the Shroud. If your faith says it’s real, that’s fine…but the general scientific consensus is that it probably isn’t.

  • KG

    What about Jimmy Hoffa? How/Why did he disappear? What New York/New Jersey site became his burial plot? Is he really buried in one of the endzones at Giants Stadium?

  • Steve-o

    The shroud of Turin is PROBABLY fake. It IS funny how people kling to something that seems like a sign of God, no matter how sane or insane it is. A rust spot on the inside of a toilet bowl that bears a resemblace to the historical image of Jesus will draw crowds for months. I had a door in my bedroom that looked exactly like a horse’s face. I wonder why no one came knocking on my door thinking THAT was a sign of something…

  • jfrater

    Wow – so many comments! I can’t reply to all so I will just say thanks for all the suggestions on new mysteries for part II of the article which is coming soon.

    Be nice to each other in your fights :)

  • Freeman

    I never realized The Hum was even a mystery. I used to be in my room as a child during night time and hear a clear audible sound, although I would have never associated it with a diesel engine [sounded more like humming speakers], but I’d turn off everything in the house, unplug everything, and still I’d hear it even worse than before. Really weird. I don’t really notice it much anymore unless the power goes out or I get outta town and go camping or someplace quiet.

    As far as the debate concerning the piece of cloth, I only have this to quote: “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.” I say this to those who know what book this quote is from and those who do not. I think it’s pointless to argue about who’s more right or holier than thou. I think we should all just get on with our own personal lives and be happy that you’re still alive to live another great day. And by the way, and more importantly, let others live their lives as well.

  • Headcase

    Religion is an outdated form of control used to keep the uneducated in servitude. We know better now and it has become an emotional crutch for those who feel there has to be some kind of justice at the end of their lives.
    If you have to worship something, worship the message, not the messenger.

    Just for the record, my father is a methodist minister so i was bought up with religion. My views are based on my experiences and observations.

  • jfrater

    Headcase: there are far too many brilliant people who have been religious for your argument to be possibly true. But thanks for adding your 2 cents :)

  • Headcase

    What does intelligence have to do with it?

  • Silva

    I laugh at the fact Loki says ”at the end of my life I have something to look forward to” Im not religious but I am not athiest….. I believe in spirituality but not in a religious sense and if you read The Power of Now you would see why I think a statement like Loki’s shows clear misunderstanding of the whole concept behind christianity and any other religion….

    hint: things are taken far too literally

    peace and good bless

    ;-)

  • Dane

    #

    79. jfrater | July 25th, 2007 at 9:52 am

    Headcase: there are far too many brilliant people who have been religious for your argument to be possibly true. But thanks for adding your 2 cents :)

    While Headcase’s argument that religion is only for the uneducated is a blanket statement that lacks credibility, it should be noted that someone’s brilliance and intelligence does not validate their religious views.

  • Headcase

    ‘keep the uneducated in servitude’

    I think this statement is the problem.
    The hierachy that used to exist 2000+ years ago meant that slavery was rife and education not available to the poor. This could cause resentment leading to social unrest. What religion could and did do was scare people into behaving in an ‘acceptable’ way through the the commandments and the concept of heaven and hell. The churches exist now purely for financial gain, whilst the clergy are as much sinners as the rest of us. Just as a side note look up the history of the popes through the years.

  • tjgrs

    seriously, for eveyone doubting religion back the heck off, and for all those who are completely religious, do the same. the reason we are what we are is because of what we believe and you shouldn’t impose that on other poeple just cause they dont believe it. i believe the shroud to be a fake, but if someone tells me its real and has proof im not gonna tell them they are flat out wrong and an idiot, cause thats just not polite. i was raised to be polite so i would sy to everyone who believes the shroud, “agree to disagree”….also, who the hell knows where jesus was nailed in the hand, arm or whatever cause anyone who witnessed it is dead anyway and most likely didnt really record it. and you can’t trust every written thing. you culd sk 12 different people who see a man get shot what happened and you will have 12 different stories, so you take it with a grain of salt and make your own personal assumptions

  • tjgrs: thank you – wise words indeed!

  • Purposely

    Good list. I would like to ad that a possible addition is the story of D.B. Cooper. While the likelihood of the the gentleman identified in Florida on his death bed is reasonable, the mystery is still unsolved in the eyes of the law. In general I am disappointed no Crytpozoology reached into the list such as Bigfoot, El Chupicabra, or even Loch Ness. Oh and its pretty ridiculous this has turned into some religious debate that will obviously go nowhere. Its very astonishing some people feel they have to post their religious beliefs on some website. Vindification of their own beliefs to themselves perhaps. At any rate, good list.

  • Philly

    does anyone think that religion was invented for people to argue over? It seems to be a past time that pretty much everyone in the world has indulged in at one time or another

  • Puposely: I am probably going to do a second list – I will be sure to add at least one of the animals this time :) I will probably add D. B as well.

  • yay

    YAY! Second list!

  • Danglebeef

    After all the comments, I haven’t seen anyone mention that the images on the shroud aren’t (or weren’t) visible to the naked eye. They were only revealed after someone took a picture of it…
    I have several books on unsolved mysteries–this stuff fascinates me. I’ll find the citation and post it if this section is still open when I find the book.
    Why would someone go to all the trouble to play a hoax that wouldn’t be seen for 600-2000 years? That someone would have had to have assumed that someday there would be an invention that would reveal the image…
    Seems like a very forward-thinking prankster to me!

  • Chris

    Dangle,
    Great post. That’s why I recommended “Ressurection of the Shroud.” It goes into to the specific detail you mentioned and more. As you said Fascinating!

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  • i know i shouldnt really muck around in stuff from that far back in posting but wikipedia isnt 100 percent reliable, anyone can change it if they see something that they think is wrong, pardon my grammer, i write like this most of the time writing proper bugs me

  • im talking about comment 15

  • VD

    The Voynich manuscript was one I found particularly interesting (just about the only thing).
    How can the Shroud of Turin be an imprint of Jesus? He didn’t even have long hair and a beard.

  • Chris

    “How can the Shroud of Turin be an imprint of Jesus? He didn’t even have long hair and a beard.”

    No one knows what he really looked like.

  • VD: don’t you think it a bit strange that all depictions of Christ – including many from the 1st century show him that way? If we can’t believe the people from the region who lived in the same century, who can we believe? Atheists who live 2000 years later? Hmm, is that too low a blow?

  • Fruckert: Thanks for the comment. I will cite additional resources in future. I just like Wikipedia because it tends to have a lot more information on it than Encyclopaedia Britannica Online.

  • Dane

    “98. jfrater | July 28th, 2007 at 7:52 pm

    VD: don’t you think it a bit strange that all depictions of Christ – including many from the 1st century show him that way? If we can’t believe the people from the region who lived in the same century, who can we believe? Atheists who live 2000 years later? Hmm, is that too low a blow?”

    Don’t you think it’s odd that all depictions of Jesus show him with long hair and beard, despite the fact that the NT admonishes men who wear their hair long? In addition, isn’t it odd that he’s always represented as being Caucasian, when he would have been anything BUT Caucasian? Do we have to believe what Christian fanatics of 2000 years ago claim? Hmmm..was that too low a blow?

  • Dane: I wasn’t saying you have to believe it – I am just saying that I think the chances are high in favour of the idea that Christ had long hair and a beard because the earliest depictions of him show him that way. Can you tell me where in the New Testament (or old) it admonishes a man for having long hair? It certainly wasn’t a problem in the old testament – remember the story of Samson and Delilah?

  • Dane

    #

    “101. jfrater | July 30th, 2007 at 8:27 am
    Dane: I wasn’t saying you have to believe it – I am just saying that I think the chances are high in favour of the idea that Christ had long hair and a beard because the earliest depictions of him show him that way. Can you tell me where in the New Testament (or old) it admonishes a man for having long hair? It certainly wasn’t a problem in the old testament – remember the story of Samson and Delilah?”

    From Corinthians 1, Chapter 11, verses 14-15:
    Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
    But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

    This entire chapter deals with how one should pray before God…men’s heads shouldn’t be ‘covered’, i.e, have long hair because man is in the image of God, while a woman should be ‘covered’ as she is in the image of man.

    Now, given this instruction as detailed by the Bible, I find it rather unlikely that Christ would just decide to skip his Dad’s AND his culture’s rules. That being said, it is therefore highly unlikely Christ would keep long hair and a beard….which would therefore mean the Shroud of Turin is NOT what it is represented to be.

  • Dane: thanks for finding a quote. The translation you have used is a poor one (is it the KJV?) – a better translation is “Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him?” – if you look at the context (read from verse 4 – 16) you will see that this majority of this section of the letter is in reference to covering one’s head when praying. The Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church have – since the beginning in the 1st century) forbidden men to cover their heads in Church and required women to cover theirs. This quote is not about long hair – it is about covering your head in prayer.

    It is also worth remembering that Jewish women of the time wore their hair to their waists – it was considered effeminate for a man to wear his hair that long. From images found in Egyptian Tombs we know that Jewish men wore their hair to their shoulders – that was not considered long hair to them.

  • Dane

    “103. jfrater | July 30th, 2007 at 10:32 am

    Dane: thanks for finding a quote. The translation you have used is a poor one (is it the KJV?) – a better translation is “Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him?” – if you look at the context (read from verse 4 – 16) you will see that this majority of this section of the letter is in reference to covering one’s head when praying. The Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church have – since the beginning in the 1st century) forbidden men to cover their heads in Church and required women to cover theirs. This quote is not about long hair – it is about covering your head in prayer.

    It is also worth remembering that Jewish women of the time wore their hair to their waists – it was considered effeminate for a man to wear his hair that long. From images found in Egyptian Tombs we know that Jewish men wore their hair to their shoulders – that was not considered long hair to them.”

    That is a possible interpretation, but not necessarily an absolute one. If, indeed, the quote references ‘nourishing’ one’s hair, that could well be interpreted as keeping long, full-bodied hair. In addition, since the Jewish community was so obviously concerned with cleanliness at this time period, I find it unlikely that they would consider shoulder length hair in men to be clean; of course, long hair was considered to be a hallmark of femininity, so they would have had to allow for that, since the Mosaic Law makes this clear.

    In addition, you will see that 1Cor 11 very closely parallels Lev. 10:6. In the NT, Paul is making it abundantly clear that he is talking about the state of one’s physical appearance, not about head coverings. However, if you choose to accept the interpretation of ‘para’, as literally referencing some type of covering for the head, that’s your decision. I simply find this unlikely since, if that was true, millions of Christian women around the world are disrespecting their ‘God’ by not having their heads covered when they pray before it.

  • Dane: it is still considered correct in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches (which comprise the majority of Christianity) for women to have their heads covered in Church. While many women disobey the rule, the rule does still exist and is consistent with the biblical requirements seen in Corinthians.

  • Katie

    The shroud one is definitely fake….. When you wrap a head in a cloth the head will appear bigger and wider. The Shroud of Turin head,on the other hand ,is normal sized. If the Shroud of Turin was true the head would have to be quite very thin to produce such an image.

  • Dane

    Jfrater: Actually, the majority of the world’s Chrstians are not aligned with the Catholic/Orthodox church. A little over 50% of them are associated with other sects of Christianity. Still, a sizable remain Catholic/Orthodox. Of course, that doesn’t mean a whole lot. All of the family on my father’s side are Roman Catholic and none of the women ‘cover’ their heads at services. I submit that both the passage in Corinthians and Leviticus are indeed referencing hair and not ‘head coverings’, like hats or shawls. If so, the majority of the world’s Christian women-including the Conservative Christian coalition, which prides itself on devoutly following the word of ‘God’-are disobeying their ‘God’, a concept I find highly unlikely, given the fanatical zeal and devotion of many Christians.

  • Dane: thanks for the comment. As it turns out I was incorrect with my count – of the 2.1 billion Christians in the world, 1.05 billion are Catholic, 240 million are Orthodox, and the rest are various Christian sects. That means Catholicism is 50% of Christianity even if you don’t count the orthodox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_religions.

  • Dane

    Jfrater: Well, if we’re going to start spitting hairs, my first question would be…how old is that Wikipedia article? How are the numbers gauged? How many times has it been edited? The fact remains consistent: despite whatever number of Catholics/Orthodox Christians there are, it seems a large number of them-and, in fact, Christians in general-aren’t telling their women to cover their heads during services…which would remain consistent with Corinthians and Leviticus speaking to hair, not head covers. Of course, you could counter with the idea that most Christians just don’t have it right…and with 36,000 sects of Christianity worldwide, I think you’d be hard pressed to identify which group DOES have it right. Shall we continue to go round and round?

  • Dane: The data in the article is from mid 2005 (from Wikipedia citing adherents.net). Britannica has data from 2002, and the wikipedia article also has data from a different source from 2002.

    Like you, I don’t have any desire to turn this into an argument! I agree that we should just leave it there :)

  • Raymond

    hey, What about the mysterious lights over Hessdalen, Norway? they have been recordered manyt imes, even by scientist. but are yet unexplainable!

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  • Don Walker

    Mike:

    The Black Dahlia case has not been solved. The pictures used in that special were not Elizabeth Short.

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  • MESKI

    I dont know if this has been written in the comments yet, i only read through about half of them… but as far as the bermuda triangle is concerned, I remember hearing that there were vast amount of strong currents flowing in multiple directions which caused many ships to get lost and any wrecks from aircraft or watercraft to travel in many different directions being virtually destroyed and losts in multiple places. Don’t know how reliable of a source it was from, just remember seeing it on TV. If true, adds a little explination but still doesnt cover it all.

  • MESKI: There seem to be heaps of different explanations, but we just never really get conclusive proof one way or another. It is definitely weird.

  • Will Treasure

    people who talk of religion only being followed by the stupid or the nostalgic show shortsightedness, just as people now read lifehack blogs in order to improve their everyday lives, religion provides structure, focus and confidence. People argue religion causes war and in this thread you can perfectly understand why. but remember religion is often used as an excuse or a moral builder in a war and is generally not the most important factor. Using ones religion as justification lowers your religion and yourself. Similarly persecuting or blaming someones actions on the religion is stupidity and creates far greater problems.

    Who really knows if its true or false, religion provides a carrot and stick (heaven and hell) approach in stopping people “sinning” (hurting/stealing etc) and i think that can only be a good thing.

    I genuinely enjoyed your article, if i wasnt worried about starting a similar religion based comment war, i would suggest putting “religion as a whole” in your next top10.

    I think theres a great power in the unknown, if i knew everything i think i would be extemely bored.

  • Will: Thanks for that comment – it is obviously well thought out and adds value to this topic. Well done.

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  • Fruckert

    i am going to have to agree with will on his comment.
    it makes alot of sense.

  • Nice job and very enjoyable. You are missing my personal favorite:

    Why would Melissa Etheridge decide that David Crosby should be the father of her child? Couldn’t she do better? What was she thinking?

    :-{)

    Blu

  • Bluboo – great comment – thanks :)

  • couggod

    It was only after the results came back from the test on the shroud did they say it was from the area that was repaired. If you believe the shroud is real, that is your business. For those accept the test as proof that is false, move on to REAL mysteries like the dropas in china.

  • couggod: thanks for the comment. Can you provide some documentation to prove your comment on the shroud? I would be very interested to see it, especially as we can see where the cuts came from and they are in the repair site.

  • Chris

    Jfrater, I guess it bears repeating. The book “Resurrection of the Shroud” explains this issue (and others) very well. I highly recommend it if you are really interested in this subject.

  • Chris: Thanks, I will certainly check it out.

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  • ben

    I think Will is absolutely right. I read an article by a fellow atheist which was similar to that in the fact that it says religion doesnt necessarily teach morality (indeed in some areas it does opposite) although it can teach humility. Further, religion, regardless of what you think, is undeniably valuable to the human race. It can connect people and and give them hope. People with a sickness may become better against certain odds. They say religion helped them, and while God or gods may not have done that certainly them beliving they had someone watching out for them gave them willpower to get better. Thats a good lesson. Even if, like myself, you dont believe, it can be hard to deny religions practicality and usefulness at times. So dont fight, just allow people their own beliefs.

  • ben: well said – I totally agree with that – it is the reason I don’t delete posts or stop people from posting their views.

  • 10. The Babushka Lady

    “She” dont look femine to me , the way “she” stands and those calves look male to me. Just an opinion :)

  • Asta: I thought that as well – it certainly adds to the mystery :)

  • Gr8flDdFn

    what about what happened to… well where amelia earhart ended up?

  • Gr8flDdFn: I think someone mentioned that in the comments.

  • Gr8flDdFn

    ah. lol i tried to skim the all the comments but i missed that one.

  • Gr8flDdFn: it’s okay – easy to do :)

  • Dave

    Give “The Second Messiah” by Knight and Lomas, a read if you get a chance. It does a nice credible job of explaining the origins and basis behind the shroud. They convincingly argue that the shroud is that of Jaques De Molay, the last grand master of Knights Templar.
    They have the science to back up their supposition and the chemical knowledge to explain the process……

  • Dave: I would just have to doubt anything to do with the Knights Templar – they have become one of the organizations most enshrouded in conspiracy theories in all history I think! Thanks for mentioning the book though – all extra info is welcome :)

  • manju

    1st i want to say about the christ cloth,we have to belive it is truely of jesus.. that cloth must have been used to cover the face of jesus after his death, we can clearly see that his eyes r closed, we also know that in da vinci code it is said holy grail was moved from one place to another so it must have used at that time.. even the blood spots must be of jesus only….
    my 2nd comment is on bermuda triangle… we have to know that why still today no research has been done to found out what is really there we all thow that science has forwarded too much but still why cnt we find the answer?? one more thing is still today also plane,ship is missing in that place if it goes there some research must be done…
    my 3rd comment is on the lady who is witness of kennedy murder.. that lady has the images of the murderer she must have known who is that murderer, she dont want to reveal that proof because it must be that it may bring bad name and impression to that person or he must be of high official power at that time… she must be afraid of producing evidence so that she will be in trouble someday she must be afraid to give evidence…

  • manju: thanks for the interesting comments. Your third comment raises a good point – originally I presumed she may have had some relation to the shooting itself, but you could be right – that she was a witness.

    Oh – and watch out for an up and coming list on the DaVinci Code – I would definitely not recommend you use it to support an argument because it is very badly written, not researched, and full of historical errors.

  • Rosa

    Whoa!!!! Nifty list!!! Hmm…i had never heard about the babushka lady. It sorta freaked me out if you know what i mean… :) Oh, and about the bermuda triangle, if we have so much technology nowadays, why havent we been able to figure out whats with the bermuda triangle?…(I mean, come on, we can figure out a way to cram a crapload of music into a little bitty thing that fits into your jeans pocket, but no one cares to figure out whats up with the frigging bermuda triangle!!!)

  • Rosa: thanks for the comment – good point about the bermuda triangle :)

  • soonerproud

    jfrater: Thanks for this list.

    After reading all 133 comments I would like to say that regardless of what SOME (Not all of them) atheist think, science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. You therefore have to take a leap of faith to believe one way or another.

    It is absolutely counter productive and pointless for the extremist of both sides to belittle one another for having a differing point of view. If both sides would listen to one another and respect each others opinions, we could learn a lot from each other and the world would be a better place for it.

    I personally am skeptical of the validity of the Shroud of Turin. Then again, I never needed a physical object to help confirm my belief in the existence of God. I still find it a fascinating mystery and love reading material on both sides about it.

    The two mysteries that fascinate me the most on this list are the Zodiac Killer and Jack the Ripper. The similarities between the two mysteries are astonishing to say the least. The biggest similarity between the two is why did they all the sudden stop and neither were ever heard from again? Serial Killers generally continue killing but these two just completely vanished as fast as they appeared.

  • soonerproud: thanks for the comment – it is very true indeed. As far as the killers are concerned – I think it is probably to do with either death of the killer or jail time (for unrelated crimes). I am planning a top 10 unsolved murders list soon, so keep your eyes out – both of the killers you mentioned will be included.

  • emptyhandkiller

    Regarding the Bermuda Triangle: I have been fascinated by this area for many years. The most compelling evidence I have seen was demonstrated by a scientist a few years ago. We know that the earth continually expells methane and other gases at various points. He demonstrated that if a large bubble of gas rose to the surface, and a ship happened to be near, it would instantly lose its bouyancy and sink. I think this is a very plausible explanation.

  • emptyhandkiller: that does sound interesting – now all they need to do is prove that there are occasional methane bubbles in that part of the world.

  • meright

    another theory on whose face it is on the shroud is that it could be that of Jaques de Molay, leader of the knights templar, the leaders of which were rounded up on friday 13th october 1307 having been found guilty of heresy and condemned by the pope. by many this is thought to be the origin of the ‘friday 13th’ myth.

  • meright: I think, unfortunately, that the templar version of the tale is a myth started by the Da Vinci Code – the many errors of which can be read about on the Top 10 Errors of the Da Vinci Code. Also, much of the mythology surrounding the templars is false – they were simply a religious order or knights that was disbanded because they were amassing great wealth. King Philip saw that as a threat to his power and spread many of the distortions of truth about them – namely the idea that they deny Christ as part of their initiation ceremonies. I think it is important to take a lot of these templar legends with a grain of salt.

  • Ok – I forgot to say, the reason Friday 13 is considered bad luck is probably because Friday was the day Christ was crucified and there were thirteeen at the last supper table. Even in recent years a person hosting a posh dinner party will invite a fourteenth person to join their party if they end up with 13 for dinner by mistake – this is a very old tradition of etiquette. I think that the Friday the thirteenth superstition has come, like many holidays and ideas today, from aspects of the life of Christ. A far less sinister, but far more likely reason.

  • Jack

    if carbon dating found it to be from the period of jesus, i don’t believe even that would be nearly enough evidence to prove it was his burial shroud. Also, if we can not reproduce an image onto a linen, how does that prove jesus wore it?

  • Gunz

    solo as for your words “I think it’s been a while we mastered “paint on fabric”. um they know its blood not paint. you really should study everything they have on it.

  • meright

    jfrater, the purpose of my post was to further the discussion by adding different ‘angles’ to the topic. I’m very suspicious of all history as it is very subjective and in many cases is written by people with a secret agenda. eg: if hitler had won the war i’m sure his historical perspective would’ve been vastly different to ours-he would’ve twisted history to suit his purpose, holocaust etc.
    When creating a new belief system it is far easier to do if you can offer historical evidence to back it up – if you look hard enough you will always find it as history has been written from so many different perspectives.
    Just as a fun footnote…..I recently read that in the time of Henry VIII it was considered a prerequisite for good health that the King should expell semen regularly, hence the large amount mistresses……..oh to be a King !!!

  • mreight: hey – I think that is good – I definitely wouldn’t want you to stop posting comments! They are the lifeblood of the site :)

  • ryuun

    all this arguments about religions….

    it doesnt matter if there is a mighty god or not,
    religions are there to help you live better life
    while your “living”

    it’s heaven if your living a good life,
    and it’s hell if your living a shit life,

    who gives a fuck about a piece of cloth
    of a man some thousands of years ago?
    say it was authentic and everything,
    what difference does it make to our everydaylife?

    just live happily with people around you everyday.

    but one thing…. you gota agree that church has so many crazy zealots and it’s a religion with
    bloody history of wars.

    and bibles are bullshit,
    christians are too “human centred”

    whats difference between killing a cow and
    killing a human? human is an animal too.
    and perhaps cows are much more innocent than humans??? humans did nothing but destroy
    earth, to be honest, we are parasites of this
    planet. perhaps its more appropriate to kill our selves?????

    what im saying is, religion might help some people, but somepeople just over do it.

    bible says earth is 6000years old and that
    humans were the first created life form???

    wow did you know that our whole milky wave galaxy is like not even a dust of the whole universe? and our solar system is not even a dust of that milky wave.

    just dont over do things guys

    you only got 100years to live if your lucky.
    enjoy your life, dont get tied by stuff like
    bibles……

    worry about heaven and hell when your dead.

    everyone dies in the end anyway kkkkkkkk

    one rule of this world;
    [existence ? nothingness]

  • Kyle17

    This list was great but I think that the Oak Island mystery should be on the list

  • nonya

    say what?

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  • I have read many books on ‘The Black Dahlia’ and ‘The Zodiac Killer.’ Have you ever seen the movie ‘The Black Dahlia’? It’s based on the story. Oh yeah, and they also have a movie based on Elizabeth Bathory. It is called “Stay Alive.”

  • alisa: I have seen the Black Dahlia film – I enjoyed it a lot. I didn’t know they had made one on Bathory – I will definitely try to track that down! Thanks for mentioning it.

  • Yes, I would love to tell you all about it but I don’t want to ruin it for you. I have to warn you the plot is kind of stupid and pointless, and some things are different than the actual story, but other than that I think it is worth watching.

  • Brian Moo

    The all capitalized letters in the Zodiac Killer’s message make it even more creepier.

  • Gracie

    This site is cool :-) theres a lot to know

  • Rodolfo

    The Voynich manuscript sounds like the most interesting mystery. Although I am very young I have always been interested in decoding messages. What I believe the author of this manuscript is trying to say, is that when you combine water=blue, with electricity= yellow, will give you a green color which is the color of the element shown where the women are at. Where the women are standing seems like it is a cell, maybe the author was trying to show that by charging an XX chromosome, a type of reaction could occur that would enable with the cure of a sickness or a type of way to make a girl sterile. Jaja hope I don’t sound dumb ,but i guess everyone has their own theories.

  • Rodolfo: that is a very interesting observation and just as good as anyone elses :)

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  • hojita

    I dont believe you know anything about all this and u can’t spect jfrater to be a genius, u are mean

  • hojita

    well, he seems quite smart to me

  • hi…i love the site…it helped me do my english project…a la prochaine mes amis!!

  • Julie Aime

    maudit eric bé !! té tu pas simpe :P

  • i love you!!

  • Julie Aime

    wa pté vraiment simpe my buddy

  • wayon war…quand on est tseule tu dit tlt moi toùt!!! lol:P c plate

  • Julie Aime

    wawa!! cest tu pas plate ste projet site

  • jtaime vrm la…!!!

  • Julie Aime

    wawa wawa

  • Ryon Ownbey

    Don’t forget D.B. Cooper

  • Raven Darkendale

    Anybody notice how that Babushka Lady always has a clean shot? Now if she happens to have a nice silenced pistol and is a good shot, she’s in better position at “moment of impact” than Oswald. I still don’t buy the Warren Report’s “magic bullet theory.” Nor do I, owning a bolt-action rifle myself, feel you could get that many perfectly accurate shots off in the time Oswald had. Now this person, lady or otherwise, right on top of the limo. Shots would be point plank. Try that for a theory, hidden in plain sight.

  • Catherine

    Ricky est loser

  • jaide

    I think i might know the cause from the bermuda triangle but im not sure. Ive heard from many stories that the reason planes are always crashing is because the sky looks just like the water and the clouds and sky reflect off the water which looks exactly the same so when the plane raises up they accidently go down blowing them up in the water but im not sure why the boats crash…Still trying to fisgure that one out.

  • jaide: the theory I’ve read for the boats involves bubbles of methane or CO2 (cant remember which, though I think it was methane) bubbling up from the floor of the ocean. When these burst at the surface the density of the water is suddenly reduced, which causes any ships over them at the time to sink suddenly

  • Interesting. Personally, I think the theory that JFK was accidently shot by a Marine who was walking next to the motorcade to be my favorite theory on the JFK incident.

  • The bermuda triangle has been adequately described as a real phenomenon caused by methane hydrates

  • AJ

    honestly i have definately working on the burmudas triangle thinge n i think i might have a breakthrough…..ur list is realy cool……one of the precise few….but i would definately want links to pics or more pics…it saves a lot of trouble….keep it up n lage raho!

  • avi

    I’d put the taos hum before Mary Celeste.

  • Stephanie

    Shroud of Turin shouldn’t be number 1. It is by far the most controversial, but it is probably the least interesting of all (to me at least). And I think the Taos Hum thing is a joke. Doesn’t everyone hear low noises at some point? I certainly do, but I never pay attention. It’s just man-made noise, or the weather. The taos hum is also one of the least interesting things on this list. It hardly counts as a “mystery”.

  • Stephanie

    Another interesting point: Do most Christians really believe the Shroud of Turin is real? Most of the Christians I know believe it’s fake!

  • Rick B

    In regards to the Bermuda Triangle, since I haven’t heard of any new disappearances since the 1970’s why do we even mention this anymore? Wouldn’t they keep occurring? So, why are people who believe in the shroud of Turin APOLOGISTS? Why aren’t the we labeling a colourful adjective to those who do not believe it is real, despite all of the testing they are doing to prove the contrary and not succeeding? How about – HELL DWELLERS?

  • Slammerworm

    Oooh, that Shroud. Personally, it seems a tad coercive on the part of a God who relies on faith to stack the odds and additionally make available a magic cloth as further proof of Jesus’ divinity. That cloth is so marked-up, scorched and folded people have seen all sorts of things in it over the years. As to ‘recreating’ it, well they said we couldn’t recreate the pyramids either, and that’s only down to money. The Shroud is an impressionistic hand-painted cloth, with a history which starts from around the 14th century, when it was also considered a fake relic. Otherwise, why would God allow a single ‘mysterious’ relic to exist at all? That’s a wee bit paranoid… But then hey, I’m-a goin’ to hell with all the other Atheists anyway.

  • kate

    niceee, i think a few others should have been included, but what ever, and tht number 9, wow he must’ve been some retard, he really cant spell can he, believe me, ill figure out those last few letters, eithere that or theyre just jibberish

  • NoBEfaRs

    I’ve heard that there is ,um,like a “mystery” about the sphinx in giza in Egypt.I’m not sure if this is true,but it’s said that the direction of the eyes is’nt parallel.They intersect at a point and beneath that point are thousands of records and scrolls and books all about the ancient times,about hidden tribes,discoveries(because there is evidence that phonecians had been to the americas or the southern tip of Africa before Europeans.They left behind writings)etc….
    Can someone please reply to this?

  • NoBEfaRs

    Anyone??

  • Slammerworm

    NoBEfaRs: It all sounds a wee bit ‘Indiana Jones’. If true, then whereabouts did the hidden information go? Unless the Feds got a hold of it and stashed it somewhere. In which case, there’s a classic case to ‘argue from silence’. It’d make the basis of a good yarn, though.

  • I LIKE KILLING PEOPLE BECAUSE IT IS SO MUCH FUN IT IS MORE FUN THAN KILLING WILD GAME IN THE FORREST BECAUSE MAN IS THE MOST DANGEROUE ANAMAL OF ALL TO KILL SOMETHING GIVES ME THE MOST THRILLING EXPERENCE IT IS EVEN BETTER THAN GETTING YOUR ROCKS OFF WITH A GIRL THE BEST PART OF IT IS THAE WHEN I DIE I WILL BE REBORN IN PARADICE AND THEI HAVE KILLED WILL BECOME MY SLAVES I WILL NOT GIVE YOU MY NAME BECAUSE YOU WILL TRY TO SLOI DOWN OR ATOP MY COLLECTIOG OF SLAVES FOR MY AFTERLIFE EBEORIETEMETHHPITI! That is so screwed up in so many ways man… TO BE CONTINUED! DUN DUN DUUUUUUHN!

  • hello peoples! :)

  • tim

    Maybe the babushka lady got scared or something.Maybe she thought the fbi would interrogate her.

  • Pepita

    The markings on the Shroud of Turin were obviously from when Jesus was killed in the electric chair for our sins. I saw the video of it is on utube or some’tin. It is amazing how little all of you people know about religion. Before Mohammudd died on the cross so that Jesus could build the Ark he made sure that he had his seven dwarfs over for a last supper where they ate apples. Then Judas, who denied he ate the apple with Eve, got Jesus out of the lion’s den but he had to face Goliath with his Nunchucks. Then they were bombed at Pearl Harbor. Then Jesus’s brother Moses was at a party in Egypt. They had a lot of good bands like The Isrealites, Locust featuring P-leg, and Metallica who sang Creeping Death. But Buddha took everyone to swim in the Red Dead Black Sea and Moses got drunk and naked where he burned a bush. Good thing he did because he found a big slab of ten commandments which he stuck into Noah’s Ark. Good thing too because I love Indiana Jones where he get the Ark. Too bad Jesus got killed in the Electric Chair but at least they have is nightgown in Turin to prove that he was one stylin’ dude.

  • nelson

    the shroud of turin is a fraud

  • jjs

    only two mentions of Hoffa on the posts, 64 and 72, and no replies. Is Hoffa not one of the biggest unsolved mysteries ever?

  • Alex

    umm not 2 be obnocious or anything buuuuuttt, aren’t all mysteries unsloved. If it’s solved its no longer considered a mystery. it sould be called:10 Unsolved Cases or somtin. but idk that’s just me. :3

  • The Shroud’s is nothing special and “modern science” doesn’t duplicate it because there is no point in doing so. As for the Bermuda triangle as someone said before the coast guard sees nothing significant about the area. There’s probably more ships and planes passing through it than some other areas, leading to more disappearances, but not a higher rate for disappearance.

  • kenshinX

    JAck the Ripper was a man named Waltert Sickert.

    Google it.

  • kenshinX: I just looked it up and from what I gather from Wikipedia and the Guardian newspaper (reporting on Patricia Cornwell’s investigation in to the matter) there is still no real evidence to link him to the murders. In fact, Cornwell has bought over 30 of his paintings and has allegedly destroyed one as part of her investigation – it sounds to me like she is trying to bump up the value of the 30+ paintings she now owns!

  • Gardensofstone

    The Babushka Woman… In your 4 photos, I see that the taller man in the white shirt is there too, and has not moved or ‘fled’ in every picture. How come no-one comments on the scary human skull on the back of her head, clearly seen in at least 2 pictures?

  • jojo

    D.B Cooper is a chilling, wonderful mystery. But I’d like to comment on the Zodiac- the Zodiac is believed to be the UnaBomber- ted kazynsci(sic) In fact, the last 18 letters of the code could very well spell theodorejkazynscki(sic). What do you guys think? Also there are documented reports of the zodiac saying hes from montana (an hour away in montana from where unabomber was found) and he was in the CA area at the time as a math professor. In addition, all eye witness accounts are eerily similar. I would bet money they are the same person.

  • jojo

    Also, does anyone know where i can find updates to unsolved mysteries (the tv series) I have the dvd sets, but a lot of the mysteries do not have updates and im sure with DNA and what not they might be solved! Any help would be appreciated, thanks. Most of the ones that were updated were ones where the convict jumped bail.

  • Dumazuri

    Might I suggest the Amber Room? That’s an obscure – but fascinating – unsolved mystery. Obviously there have been many theories, but nothing’s ever been proven.

  • incipiat

    One of the things I’ve noticed about the comments on the Shroud (and other religious topics, specifically evolution vs. creation) is that most people forget about hierarchy in the scientific fields.

    No scientist on this planet will accept a lesser science trying to set criteria by which the higher science must abide. (e.g. a Zoologist setting up laws to which the Biologist must give acquiescence.)

    Yet, constantly, day in and day out we are told to accept that the highest science – Theology – must give way to every other (lesser) science.

    I know for you atheist’s out there Theology is not a “real” science. And, unfortunately for you, if you don’t discover the value of Theology, or the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Faith in this world you will most assuredly find yourself in a very warm predicament in the next.

  • George Clark

    I was once told of a truckload or maybe even a railroad train with a “money” car disappeared in a western state, and it had to be before 1963, as my brother had returned from California after military service and wanted me to go and look for it.

  • i think that the zodiac letter is one big crypt. never mind the word scramble he used to throw people off. I think that the words and letters are to random. this guy was smart. he randomly miss spelled words on purpose. I’m close to cracking it!

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  • Vicky

    I once read a book, or some kind of article (I can’t quite remember) the theorised that the police did, in fact, know who the killer was, but he was some kind of influencal person, so they couldn’t convict him.

    And the Babushka lady looks kind of creepy from the back, like a skull kind of.

  • zen

    to all these mysteries will remain as they are, mysteries. the only way to proof what happened is that someday, someone, somewhere invents a time machine and we all can go and see who’s right or wrong.

    p/s : except for the humming thing, i think all the disappearing bees on this planet are gathering there, tired of giving humans free honey.

  • naruot23

    turin is fake the triangle is so bogus

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  • boogers&burgers

    ayayayayayayay BAM bAm BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Ghidoran

    There was this mysterious person/monster that attacked people in London maybe about te time of Jack the Ripper. He had big claws abnd scratched people. Are the the same thing?

  • Buckiingham

    There are more thrilling things, like the dissaperance of a man (literally vanished)! from view, where there were no trees, buildings etc. He was at a farm and vanished completely in front of his family.

    p.s. there are 100,000 planets beyond Earth and more beyond that.

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  • Rylan

    There is not one single piece of archaeological, forensic or documentary evidence that shows Jesus was ever alive.

    -mwillett.org

  • KG

    (Shroud)Many people like to discover in order 2 find the explanation of things in life,that is a good thing as we human beings 2 do.But sometimes our intelligence is letting us astray.Problem with a person is,u come with something fascinating 2 him the day will never pass without changing the originality of the thing.How we r using our intelligency in a stupid way.

  • Ghidoran
  • sanjay

    thanks for sharing mysteries everyone love about and the discussions over them. There must be explanation to every mystery. As far as Shroud of Turin goes, carbon dating method is not as accurate as it is thought. For cloth it will be useless. I had heard about a photograph of the person living in the same home mysteriously appearing on a glass panel. Later it was proved that because of lightening and as glass because of detecteble synthetic elements had captured the faint image that remained as a permanent mark. What if the cloth had some chemical compounds mixed that could have acted as photosynthetic material?

    Whether the image is of Jejus is surely disputable because though Jesus was a historical figure, it is not proven beyond doubt that he was cricifixed. Many beleive that he came to India( Kashmir) after that so-called crucification…was it political exile? Bible was not written in His lifetime…was written quite later. Roman’s manipulated original Bible…to make it suite to their political purpose and many mysterious stories were attached to his character.

    Same thing can be applied to the mysterios humming sound. In India,, especially in Maharashtra state in Marathwada region, people have been hearing thunderous sounds coming from deep earth…no earthquake…no plactonic deflation…no harm…still sounds are horrifying and scientists/geologists still have’t found origin and reason behind the sound…nature carries more mysteries till we understand them.

    Thanks

  • gretchen

    omg

  • Sister Gabriel

    From the very beginning of time people doubted – a ploy of the devil. I wonder what happened to all those people who doubted or denied that Jesus is the Son of God when they met Him face to face after dying?

  • aj

    sister gabriel
    what happens to the hindus and the buddhists and the muslims…do they meet jesus too????
    im confused….

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  • rab carr

    hey i am disappointed that the loch ness monster native to my country ain’t on here.

  • Miroslav Provod

    Cells versus capacitors

    During the experiments regarding cells and capacitors, we have seen yet unpublished properties, which could explain phenomena that have been thought of as mysteries till now. These could show many other solutions. Because there are new terms used in the results I will try to demonstrate these new findings on three natural phenomena.

    On cellular membranes, there is spontaneus transformation of cosmic energy into electric energy if they are located in energetic overcharge in the same way as on the electrodes of capacitors. If two or more auras of matters are interconnected their auras merge into a bigger common aura and then their energetic values are equalised.

    If we think about the human body according to the new knowledge, we could say that bilions of cells are in contact and their auras overlap, which means that the whole body has a common aura. This phenomenon works not only in between the human cells but also in electronics. The memory of a computer comprises of a great amount of miniature condensers and is able to store information in the form of 0’s and 1’s (0 = there is no charge, 1 = there is charge). Therefore, we could say that human body and electronics have some similar properties. This tells us that if the charge is increased it could cause harm not only to cells in the human body but also to electronics (this could be proved by some simple experiments).

    According to the procedure that I’m describing in the article “Dowsing versus aura” it is easy to prove the reactions of energetic parts of water flows (aura, zones, interzones). By this we get an idea about the energy of small water flows and we could orientate in the energetic properties of great water flows more easily. By this I mean sea currents. There are many of these and their flow is in the order of hundreds of millions m3/sec and it could be assumed that they are in interaction with large streams around the Earth. The Gulf stream has various bends and meanders where there is multiple energetic concentration. In the Sargas sea there are also whirlpools whose diameter reaches up to 300km and they reach depth of 5000m. These further increase the local energetic concentration. These places could be thought of as critical from the point of view of further energetic increase from other sources, which could be thunderstorm clouds, moon, planets and other sources. Also, the planes that have been lost in this area could have connection with energetic overvoltage.

    The zones of the Gulf stream copy in the shapes of cylindrical shells the US East coast. The energy of one of these zones could be artificially significantly increased by the use of groups of great capacitance capacitors and this would create a barrier that would destroy all organisms and electronics. However, there is a great amount of sea currents and this gives us the opportunity to built such a barrier anywhere on the Earth. This piece of knowledge could also be used for other purposes.

    This knowledge about the energetic overvoltage of cells could also explain a strange phenomenon that occurred in the streets of capital of Nairobi on 24.July 1956 at 15:00 (03:00p.m.). About 200 men and women danced on the main street in Nairobi. The dancing people had a regretful look in their faces such as if they danced because they were forced to dance. It wasn’t possible to communicate with them and they didn’t perceive anyone who asked them a question. One hour later, there were 20.000 men, women and children dancing. Eventually, there were about 50.000 people dancing in a strict circle whose diameter was 3.5 kilometres. It looked like they weren’t perceiving anything but they kept about a metre of space between them and they didn’t bump into anyone. It’s interesting that even older people could dance in this dancing marathon for about 5 hours without any visible signs of getting tired. Later accounts of the dancing showed that they didn’t remember anything because their sences were totally crippled. Their memory and thinking didn’t work. It’s very interesting that even that there was no music playing with this dance all the dancers kept the same rhytm.

    In this magic circle, not all the people were dancing. The dancers were those who had some metal objects such as coins in their pockets. The dance participants later realised a feeling that their body gained energy from these metal objects. Everything suddenly ended =at 20:00 (08:00p.m.). Nobody has been hurt or dead. This is a very rare phenomenon, which was also noted with some differences in Rheinland at spring equinox in 1374. Between 1871 – 1878 in the Savoy there was an epidemic obsession in women monasteries that was changing into diabolic feakout. The cause of these incomprehensible events hasn’t been found yet.

    The knowledge of the empiric research also gives us an explanation of this mysterious event. People that were affected by the dance were located in the energetic space of the town that had greater energetic overcharge than the optimal cellular charge. This caused greater charge on the cells (including brains cells) and was followed by disorder of thinking. The fact that is peculiar on this event is that even older people didn’t feel tired after 5 hours long dancing. Not less interesting is the information that only those people that had metal objects in their pockets were affected by the dance. Three great time intervals between similar events show that the energetic overcharge could be caused by astronomical influences. I don’t doubt that similar anomalies in the region of aura could also be created by groups of great capacitance capacitors, which would create optimally enhanced overcharge in this given region. We noticed similar health disorders during the experimetns, but we interrupted such experiments due to the possibility of health damage. The fact that similar situation can’t be evoked by the people that don’t have metal with them prompts us to many useful applications. Bank robbers usually have metal objects with them, but bank workers don’t, so a button could be pressed and the bank robbers would give us a dance before the police arrives. There are many other such applications.

    Another mysterious event, which could be assigned to the zones of the cosmic energy is the spontane human combustion (SHC). The spontane human combustion is one of the most controversial phenomena for serious researchers. The spontane combustion means that human body could be ignited without any optically noticed source. Very intense and unbelievably localised fire transforms most of the human body into ash. In many cases part of a limb, like a leg, remains untouched. Similarly, some parts of clothes or surrounding objects remain untouched. Nothing similar exists in nature that would be similar to those fires and the accompanying phenomena don’t follow laws of physics and findings of medicine. Some researchers also describe this phenomenon by “candlewick effect”. They wrap a body of a pig into a sheet and leave it slowly burning all day. They forget about the fact that the process of burning during SHC happenes in a matters of seconds, not hours. There is a great amount of information about this phenomenon on the internet and therefore I won’t further describe it, but will limit myself only to the classification from our research’s point of view.

    Cellular membranes have a capacity of about (1µF/cm2), which means that they work like a capacitor. If we keep increasing the charge on a capacitor after reaching the threshold value, which is the maximum value up to which it’s sized, the isolator would eventually brake and in that moment, all the energy is released and the capacitor is destoryed. Similar disastrous process happens with billions of cells in humans. When the threshold energetic value for which nature sized our cells is reached, the cells explode in the same way as capacitors do.

    I have written about three different phenomena, which by their specific show confirm functionality of other properties of cells and condensers. I would be delighted if some research centers used this new knowledge.

  • mystery

    well, my whole life has been full of mysteries and eventhough I tried to be as logical as I am, still all these facts make me wonder about life, esp my life

    I kind of more of an introvert guy, family gathering is not my favorite moment. When married to my wife on 2003 I barely knew about her family. I knew about her father, mother, brothers and sisters and it was enough for me, which is actually not common for my culture.

    at one night around early 2004 I had a weird dream, I was browsing through some old pictures prints each showing a house from the front. the old prints still had the white border. I took one look, and move to the next setting aside the finished ones. My eyes caught something unusual on the finished pile, the picture originally had two pillars with a wooden old chair in front of the house when I first looked at it. now it has someone sitting on the chair.

    I then grab the pic and looked closely to the person, close enough that until now I’d still able to draw a picture of him. I mentioned name because his face was very similar to my uncle, I yelled “Uncle Swie, what r u doing?”. I’m a chinese indonesian thus we called people by using short chinese name. But then I realized it wasn’t my uncle and I then screamed another name Uncle Hin.

    my wife woke me up and I was still not understand. then I explain to her and ask her about this Uncle Hin actually I also made a drawing of the face and also the house in my dream. she was surprised and told me that he was actually her uncle who died on car accident during the 1980’s and he was a carpenter. the house also matched.

    this is just one experience, I and later also my wife still had many which still I myself unable to explain logically. another dream was when my wife suddenly had her grandfather talked to her in Latin. I wrote down the sentence and got someone to translate it. she was in no way knew about Latin. in life there are so many mysteries. it is also a mystery how I love my wife and children more than I love myself.

    what a wonderful and positive thing for the world if our logic could really solve everydays troubles, unfortunately the magnificent Nature would never allow us to have the peace of mind without first discovering the peace of heart

  • ibelieve

    This is bad why don’t you believe. What if maybe the Shroud of Turin is for real and not a fake. We are of so little faith. Did the Lord not show his hands to Mary in the garden.
    Maybe his arms were tideup and His hands were nailed to the cross. Will we believe if we see it with our own eyes….?

  • Tim

    “This is concerning Natalee Holloway:
    I am not a physic and don’t claim to be physic, one night while watching the nightly news, a story came on about Natalee. its like I was right there watching everything from a distance, I saw a white building that was on stilts it had and it had a deck all around it. as you go up the stairs onto the deck, I saw what appeared to be a white chemical barrel with a red lock on it. the building was located on what appeared to be a beach, off to the right was a land mass which stretches forward and comes to a point.
    Natalee is in that chemical barrel, they are not looking in the right place, straight across from the point about middle way into the bay there is a bouie, Natalee will be found near that bouie. I see the barrel floating upward because of the gases released because of her decaying body.
    she will be found I just don’t know when! I do know that A fishing boat will find her! she is in what is called a inlet
    which leads to the open sea.

    the buoie is white with a red light which blinks!

  • Jala

    I realize its been a while since the follow comment was published, but I thought I’d talk about it anyway.

    “12. Solo – July 23rd, 2007 at 11:41 pm

    Of course that does not prevent people from believing it’s legitimate. Like they believe the bible is the word of God (when clearly it is man made) or that the earth is 6000 years old.

    It is in human nature to want to convince others of their own convictions, nobody holds opinions knowing those are false. But ever since I’ve been told Santa Claus was not real I take any extraordinary claim with a good dose of doubt.”

    Read your last sentence again, Solo. Are you not doing the same? Are you not also trying to convince people of your beliefs? Its human nature, after all. Prove to me the Earth is older than 6000 years old, and I will believe you. (No, carbon dating and other such dating types are not scientific. They have been proved otherwise many times.) And again, real proof. Like, if you were actually there.

  • aguy

    faith is the belief of something without evidence or proof. so, why should a rational, thinking human being have it? i’m glad i don’t just go believing things i hear because some book or some person told me so–particularly things that often seek to control a person’s actions in some way (like religion). i think faith is at the very heart of some very serious problems in our world, for example people blowing each other up with bombs. just because your faith brightens your day, or you think that it gives your life purpose, that doesn’t make it true. there are matters of fact in this world, and whether they are true or not are independent of someone’s faith.

    even though i don’t believe (due to lack of evidence)in religion or god, that doesn’t mean that i can’t lead a full life, or that my life has no purpose, or that i have no morals. i can easily walk outside and marvel at the awesomeness that is everywhere around me, and i can also look forward to showing it and sharing it with my future children. i think that extremely religious people are often the ones missing out, spending so much time fixated on church (i’m not saying church is inherently bad) and limiting the things they do because of the idea of god. just look around you–be in love, see the world. that’s plenty good enough for me.

  • angee

    the triangle has been brokin it apears that when the triangular trade was going on americans through bcoloured people to the ocean, and while dying they curssed the place,which made so many dissapear or even die, the curse was so powerfull for many years, untill a couple of christion scientists broke it by blessing and praying for that place so now it wont cause trouble!

  • angee

    and yes it was true,

  • angee

    now its just a legend!

  • shubham

    Incridible information.
    I will expect a little more mainly about Earth.

  • Dr.Bones

    aguy,
    amazing point. i’m also not a religious person. to each his own. i simply see no point in wasting my time on trivial things such as god or eternity. i’m enjoying everything that is here and now.

    jfrater,
    thank you for taking the time to give me something interesting to ponder. =]

  • Shaks

    Really good information!!! i want to learn more about these great stories … you should do more on them.

  • God

    Angee what planet are you from.

  • veggie28

    I’m so confused on the shroud of turin all I see is the guys face, hair, neck line, and the dark image of his clothing on his body. Can someone please point out where his nads and wrists are because I don’t see them at all.
    :)

  • veggie28: check it out here – it is the full image and is much clearer: http://blogs.setonhill.edu/StefanieRobb/shroud.jpg (it may be the inverse image which shows the detail better)

  • natália salomé

    amazing, thanx for share

  • Cogito13

    I greatly enjoyed your list. It’s unfortunate that posting 10 different “mysteries”(not all religious in nature I might add), resulted in another religious debate similar to what you may hear at a bus stop in front of a church.

    Regardless of the temptation to fall right into the debate, I will just say, great post and I look forward to more. Minus the Sunday school lesson of coarse.

  • Tarot Freak

    About what Updoc was saying. Jesus was recorded in history by Roman Census, and by their legal system when he went in front of Pontius Pilate the roman in charge like the governor person of Judea/israel, And by Josephus or Tacitus who talked about “one Jesus of Nazereth, Who was a disturber of the Roman Peace. And the fact of Jesus’s real name, which is Jewish mind you as Yeshua and Jesus is a modern mistranslation. Plus talk to any Hebrew person about him and they are likely to say he was something like a great prophet.
    One last not for Updoc, Saying something publicly like that is a pretty big slap in the face to every christian denomination in the world. Plus every Religion in general because it denies the validity of the religion and it’s right to be practiced. And right there you may as well have said that no religions should be practiced. Great thought provoking topic though. And a great list.

  • Tarot Freak

    About the Mary Celeste. I Think that the Mary celeste became becalmed or in plain english hit a spot of weather that was acomplete dead zone for wind or propelling waves, like a large eye of a huricane for several days in a random located deepest part of the ocean, eventually tipping over and sinking to the bottom to rot into oblivion. Can expplain the people vanishing other than abondoning ship and hoping to find land God knows where but unsuccesfully and dying of starvation and dehydration and cannabilism and the latter explains the lack of bones from being tossed over the side for burial by the suvivors more easily than the alternatives.

  • mong00se

    Hey, about the black dahlia, i watched a documentary on the whole thing a few months ago, but only just found this list, but the killer was found , if not arrested.

    Admittedly, this dispute started about a year ago, but there was a detective, Steve Hodel, who realised all the markers lead back to his own father. digging a lil deeper etc, he was previously been the prime suspect, but police corruption had lead to him beng released. There was some indication through being a surgeon and knowing Elizabeth Short that he was almost undoubtably the killer. There’s a fair few articles about it, this is just one of the best explained http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/4-18-2003-39261.asp

    just goes to show where knowing the right people can get you eh?

  • Kate

    i think on the zodiac killer the word that wasn’t deciphered could possibly be arabic if you translate it.

  • bobby-o

    Ok i’ve tried to anagram the 18 letters at the end of the lettter from the zodiac killer but don’t know what to change it too and i’ve tried taking the letters that made the words mispelled and i’ll anagram those and i’ll try taking the letters that would’ve made the words correct and try to anagram those. i’ll try and look for a name since that’s what it says you might find in the letter but i’ll also look for a sentence or something.

  • bobby-o

    i’ve also found before i die in the last word bu just messing with the letters to see if i could find anything but i can’t find anything else to make it a sentence.

  • bobby-o

    so does anybody have any ideas

  • Vani

    Regarding the Shroud – Anthropologists consider that Jewish men of Jesus’ generation did not wear their hair long. Also, genetically they possessed a different bone structure. This was concluded by analysis of skeletal remains of young Jewish males found in Jewish tombs of that epoch. Knowledge about this period is not so inaccessible to us as you would think.
    As for the person who wrote that Jesus was not a real, historical person, this is false. Remember that Rome was then occupying Jesus’s homeland. So, there are references to him in much of Roman records, in such forms as letters and reports. Much is known about the dress, appearance and mores of Jesus’ contemporaries. It’s unlikely that Jesus or any male of his social rang wore their hair long, it would have been socially unacceptable. this is even more true since Jesus was a spiritual leader and had so many disciples. He was a rabbi, a teacher. Don’t merely use biblical references to substantiate my claims – try to read up on some of the archaeological findings and anthropological research on that period. An imaginative reconstruction of what Jesus might have been like depict him as a powerfully built, wide-shouldered, short-haired man with strong features and a wide, rounded skull. Any of you can do research on this subject and will encounter similar results. So there is doubt that this Shroud which depicts a long, narrow, bearded face is of him – The only possible explanation is that, he had become emaciated and unshaven through his horrible, three day long ordeal. Or, as he was a social and religious rebel, he might have refused to follow the norm and chosen a different style of dress. However, in that case, I think there would have been comments from some of his critics and detractors. Or it might be a depiction of his inner self. In any case, the Shroud is not a painting as someone stated above. The list was posted so long ago, I don’t know if anyone will ever read this.

  • harshit

    W#LL wee never know these unsolved mysteries
    but they will remain as mysteries…..

    FOR EVER

    we will never know them

  • CC

    I’ve heard the hum before….about 5 years ago, some people told me it was “7 year cicadas”…..

    but now i see this, wow….

    if anyone of importance would like to know the location email me at [email protected]

  • ibelieve

    Is there any new unsolved mysteries to poke our brains.
    These are getting boring….

  • Mark

    Uh, I’m a Catholic and I don’t necessarily consider the Shroud of Turin to be Jesus’ anything, I mean it’s possible but I doubt it.

  • Mark: belief in the shroud of turin – like many other things of that nature – is not required of Catholics – they are considered pious traditions.

  • Mark

    Yeah.

  • avi

    WHERE IS GOD?

  • ibelieve

    He is every where…..
    Do you believe in GOD? and Why?

  • Tie

    I like to think of myself as open minded and welcome proof of god and jesus christ but whenever your religious views are questioned you fall back on this wonderfully convenient thing called Faith. What is faith? Faith is ones belief with no merit or proof.

    Faith is in general the persuasian of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phil. 1:27).

    Persuasian is the act of inducing someone to believe something and could also be looked at as manipulation. So inorder to be welcome into the Kingdom of Heaven I need only to blind myself? Because he without faith has no place in the eternal paradise. I think not.

    Go ahead and quote the bible till your blue in the face cause if ever someone needed proof that religion is man-made (flawed) he need only read the bible.

    So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and my life was preserved.” (Genesis. 32:30).

    No one has ever seen God. (John. 1:18). Um.. ok

    God, Heavenly Paradise, it all sounds too good to be true. I’ve learned here in the real world when something looks too good to be true.. It is

    Think outside the donation box ;) Oh and that damn Zodiac code is racking my brain….

  • Peter

    My 2 cents about religion. The claim was made that one cannot logically talk about it and it’s therefore a matter of faith. I disagree.
    There is ‘religion’, which is belief in certain ideas, principles, books, concepts, etc., combined with certain behaviour and intentions. Obviously this ‘religion’ could and in fact does take countless forms. Religious people of this kind will never agree and yes, logically many convintions don’t make sense. Graham Parker said it well: the world is full of people like you; they have to read a book to know what to do.
    There is also religion. That means: the experience of
    re-ligare, to reconnect. This is a matter of knowledge, intuition and experience. And yes, one can logically discuss many aspects of it. If many references in the Bible match references in other books considered sacred, and they match modern scientific conclusions, then we are dealing with something real. One example is references about the astral body of man (chakras) in Bible, Bhagavat Gita, Koran and many other books, being confirmed by modern research. Yes there are chakras, yes meditation does change the functioning of the physical body, yes it is possible to live without taking food, etc.
    My point is: untill you have at least some experience of being part of something infinitely greater than your body and your personality, you don’t know what you’re talking about when talking about religion.

    BTW The hum I find interesting. And I wonder if there could be a conection with the AUM sound, which can be heard through the practise of certain ancient meditation techniques. Many people have been known to occasionaly clearly hear this sound also outside of meditation. There are places and shapes that are conducive to this experience. I cannot make a logical case here, but the similarity is interesting: the AUM sound is a verifiable reality and yet it cannot be recorded.
    Best wishes to everyone reading this site.

  • SERBIAN-KINGS

    WHAT ABOUT JFK

  • britney

    am a real agent spy,belive me.iv got all the poepel.if yo want them.you have to give me qeen victorais necklace

  • ibelieve

    i like the way you think nr. 247 Peter.
    That is how i feel as well what you have said and i am a Catholic.

  • amisha

    this is gr8 information…

  • Peter

    @ ibelieve
    Thanks. Perhaps some of my own Catholic upbringing shines through here ?
    If you’re interested in religious experience and the underlying reality/unity of all religions, I highly recommend ‘Autoiography of a yogi’ by the great Indian-American sage Yogananda. It helped me to understand my own Catholic tradition.
    All the best.

  • Willow

    The Shroud. Some one said it was a fake because the nail marks are in the wrist. Well that doesnt mean anything. If you were to be crucified even today the nails would have to go into your wrists as your hands dont have enough big bones to support the weight of the body. That is why they are in the wrist. If you do your research Jesus was crucified with the nails through the wrists as well. It is a misconception that the nails were in his hands.

    I do love the site though. I knew alot of the stories but it was interesting to learn about the ones i didnt. I love this stuff and i will pass the link on to my friends. Great job on the site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • magic

    I’m not a big fan of religion to be honest i think it has caused more hurt than good in most instances but i’d like to think that the shroud of turin was real because it stirs up the imagination. It’s these sorts of mysteries that gets peoples brains ticking away.

  • Spange

    There was a BBC documentary about the Shroud on TV a few months ago. I’m an atheist and am skeptical about the Shroud but the historical and scientific facts and questions that the show threw into the mix were very compelling. Studies on the odd crease marks, on the possibilites of carbon dating being affected by contaminants, on the type of linen used, the fact that the image is a negative which would be an odd way to paint a person, the way the colour does not seep into the fibres but is just on the surface and also a very interesting historical account about a relic in Hungary found in a 13th century Frenchman’s diary that could well have been the Shroud. I can’t find reference to the documantary now, but even from a skeptics point of view…a very interesting show.

  • ibelieve

    Thank you Peter, will do. regards

  • ibelieve

    One ? Why do they always pick on Catholic miracles are there no miracles in orther religions. If there is are they true?

  • #4. Black Dahlia.
    For a number of years, including 2003, I was working for the Southern California Chapter of the Mystery Writers of America. Monthly meetings were held, at which there were almost always speakers of interest (except for election days and other internal special events).
    In one month of 2003, the speaker was Steven Hodel, who had written a book, “Black Dahlia Avenger”, in which he claimed his father was the killer.
    There were further allegations; That Elizabeth Short was not the only victim, a friend of hers, Jeanne French, was also killed a month later; That the house the Hodel’s lived in was bugged, but for reasons known only to the DA’s office, no charges were ever filed (maybe because the guy was innocent? I read the book and still don’t have a handle on the truth)…this is a man (Steven) who obviously hated (hates still) his father. The reasons he hates him (which he denies flat-out) are valid if truthful, and they seem to be.
    Wouldn’t it be amazing if this mystery was solved, finally, by the son of the murderer?

  • Pratt

    My two cents. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil if God takes his own advice I’d say we have nothing to worry about sin away ppl sin away lulz.
    With all the promises of eternal hell for the non believer etc I rather believe in God than not and I know you can say if your truly sorry he will forgive. Well I am not truly sorry lest I wouldn’t sin again so guess I am screwed anyway :)

  • Peter

    @259 Pratt
    I can’t quite follow your reasoning, but take it from me: as far as God is concerned the issue is not to sin or not to sin, but to love or not to love.

  • Quietmike

    Peter – if you are reading/discussing areas of the unity of people/religion – check out Baha’i – religion is not for me, but these people have about the sanest teachings I’ve ever seen, if that’s your thing…

  • Peter

    261 Quietmike,
    Thanks, I appreciate your suggestion. I am aware of the Bahá’i faith.
    You say religion is not for you and wonder if it’s my thing. What if we look at it this way?:
    The love and intelligence in this world must be a manifestation of the potential love and intelligence inherent in the cosmos. That potential must be enormous, perhaps even what we call infinite.
    The question is: can an individual have a conscious connection with that source ?
    If yes, that is the only true relgion. Then it doesn’t really matter if one is a christian or muslim or anything, because those religions are merely ‘entrances’ to the experience of this connection.
    If no, religions are merely social phenomena. At best a positive force in society and at worst a strongly divisive factor.
    If you read spiritual texts of all ages and places, you will see that using different words they clearly refer to the same experience of re-connection (re-ligare) with the sourse of all life.
    Most people, including the majority of people that would call themselves religious, don’t know this experience. Which explains why the world looks as it does.

    So, yes, religion is my thing. Its goal is love and the way is meditation. The rest, moral standards, devotion etc. is helpful but ultimately not necessary (if one meditates enough that is).
    All the best.

  • Kamzo

    about the babushka lady, why didnt the american officials name her as a prime suspect if they found her so suspicious. that way they could have found the recording and taken it from there

  • Mr.J

    I like all the Mysteries you guys. I like them because they keep you guessing. I’m only 17 years of age but when i get older i want to go to these places and see all these Mysteries. If you get anyother Mysteries i would like to know

  • JrMiScHiEf

    i think the zodiac killers first name is robert

  • Mexican

    AAAAAAAAAAAA THESE CASES R JUST SO EASY VATO!!!!!!

    1- The face is just an ilusion
    2- The boat- the family commited suicide
    3-the sound comes from behind the mountains
    4-the murderer is encovered by the newspaper and still lives
    5-he obviously walked away and died
    6-that manuscript is written in greek of the 10th century
    7- jack the ripper is dead
    8- the triangle has some kind of magnetic force underwater
    9- hes just trying to get attention
    10-she is an involved in the murder

    THATS ALL I GOTA SAY…
    NOS VEMOS

  • rushfan

    Just goes to show, if you want to get something done, ask a Mexican. ;)

  • alisha

    the bible is not man made. it is the word of god as told to men by god. god used his followers hands to write his word so believers can come to know and love him and see how he cares for us and the mercy he shows to us. god talks to me and any body else that will listen the same way he talked to moses and david and all the rest. thank you and god bless

  • MT

    I’ve often wondered what would happen if the followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh wrote down everything they said and did and 2000 years from now their writing were uncovered and they were considered true Messiahs. Most people can’t get a story right that was told to them yesterday. Can we really believe what was written centuries ago by people that had no real understanding of science, medicine or what was really happening that they couldn’t explain? I believe in God but have had this debate with my religious friends many times. The Bible was written by MAN based upon what his mind could comprehend at the time. Examples: Man in a coma wakes up and it looks like someone rising from the dead. The 10 plagues; they’ve been explained by science many times. Also, how come they’re is no mention of dinosaurs or cavemen in the Bible? Is there anyone reading these list that don’t believe they existed? Why did the Church exclude several books from the Bible? Is it because they didn’t fit in to acceptable standards at the time? Let’s continue this great debate over a great list.

  • 269. MT…Also, how come they’re is no mention of dinosaurs or cavemen in the Bible?…
    ****
    You’re kidding, right?
    Seriously, you have to be joking. Dinosaurs and cavemen in the bible?
    When were the first examples of dinosaurs discovered?
    When were the first examples of “cavemen” (god! I didn’t think anyone older than 11 used that term any longer!), uncovered?
    They could only write stories, parables, that were known to them. All of the great books of the worlds great religions came about in much the same way; stories which had been passed down, orally, for thousands of years, were finally written down.
    Why do you imagine all of the great religions have almost identical stories contained in their holy books?
    I could make this an essay, but I really don’t need to. By now you certainly get the point.

  • MT

    270: seque:

    First tell me what is the correct term to use instead of caveman. I was being generic so Cro-Magnon, etc. didn’t really apply. Also, since Genesis was the description of the beginning of the Earth and described in detail many other animals, why no dino’s mentioned? Why no mention in any other books of the Bible? You have no idea what I imagine but it is usually not what others are taught to “imagine”. Other than that we agree on the other points. And by the way, I’m much older than 11 and show it in the way I respond to other posters.

  • littleR

    About the tao’s hum.. I think that’s heard in my country.. It comes from trees and I think their insects. :D

  • perpetue.m

    the voynich manuscript is an old teastament it is anceint hebrew

  • laura

    Why isn’t there an artikel about the monster of loch ness?!

    I think it deserves a place in the top 10..

  • The Supreme Being

    Silence!… INFIDEL!!!

    I am blind of what I saw today.Is this what your writing down after creating your ten-fcking fingers. These fallacious act of everyone knows nothing but masturbating!

    Willam Tell- Satan is waiting for you. Better be ready.
    Julie Aime- what’s your grade in your English Exam?
    Daniel- You’re an A-hole!
    GOD- Better watch 2 girls 1 cup!
    MT- (_(_)=====D… try to eat this thing!

  • Peter

    Allow me, o mighty Supreme Being:

    ‘Julie Aime- what’s your grade in your English Exam?’

    ‘Is this what your writing down after creating your ten-fcking fingers. These fallacious act…..’

  • 275. The Supreme Being seems to be addressing a particular classmate.
    My guess is The Supreme Being requires psychiatric help *NOW*, before he can do anyone any harm.

  • ibelieve

    Maybe it is just a story

  • The Supreme Being

    AGAIN!!!

    Silence! Infidels!!

    Hey Peter… What made the redman red?
    Why does he ask you HOW?
    When did he first say Ugh!

    segue… Never met a wiseman but you talk like one…
    Maybe you’re a fuckin’ woman…
    ( you talk too much you son of a bitch )

  • Well, The Supreme Being, in post 279, leaves no doubt of either his being a child, or his need for psychiatric attention.
    Peter, if in cahoots with The Supreme Being, should also receive help.

  • Peter

    Supreme Being,

    You wrote:

    ‘AGAIN!!!

    Silence! Infidels!!

    Hey Peter… What made the redman red?
    Why does he ask you HOW?
    When did he first say Ugh!’

    It doesn’t make much sense to me to want someone to be silent and then ask him questions. But OK, I’ll do my best:

    1 It’s pigmentation of the skin
    2 I guess it’s because he doesn’t expect any answers from you
    3 He says that to you ? But … that’s so ….unrespectful.

  • Holy Immortal One

    Peter is a fuckin’ moron..
    The question was from Peter pan… then there you go
    1 It’s pigmentation of the skin
    2 I guess it’s because he doesn’t expect any answers from you
    3 He says that to you ? But … that’s so ….unrespectful.

    What an asshole!!

    What made the redman red? ALULULULULULULU!!!!

  • Jon ho

    you guys are fucken retards
    how bout u stop bikkering and try work these weird ass things out!?!?
    hmmmmmmmmm?

  • Lucifer

    hi there!… care to smoke some weed?

    I’m Jesus’ step brother anyway..

    Why can’t you guys just live your life without questioning which you can find the answers when your dead. Why not do crack, smoke weed, fuck your best friend’s mother and just live your fuckin’ life so that you can join me after death.

  • Thilina

    sorry about my english.I heard theres NO ANY MYSTERY IN BERMUDA.Deep in the sea it has many under sea volcanos.There fore they make some gases and gases come out from the soil.Cause of the gases thickness of the water is going down.Therefore ships are drawning.Fraom the upper layer of theeater gases are releasing tothe air.Then air thickness is going down.Therefore plans are crashing.

  • m0nk3yhum0r

    is there a holy war going on?

  • #286. m0nk3yhum0r – is there a holy war going on?
    ****
    Go check out “Should Creationism be Taught in the Schools?”
    *THAT’S* a holy war!

  • sitad

    the shroud is a fake, how can a cloth survived all these centuries, how come it stays like that and did not rot or something like that. what is that cloth made of if it is really a cloth.

  • will04

    The Shroud cannot be the imprint of the Lord Jesus Christ because it has the whole image of a man which is in total contradiction of the scripture namely John 20:6-7 6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
    7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

    It said that the napkin (linen cloth) that wrapped his head was separate from the cloth that wrapped his body.

    Case closed

  • Selina

    will04. Nice. Amen to that one.
    Though many would like to believe that it was the imprint…and not saying that God is incapable of doing something so great….I have a feeling people really just needed something visual for their faith.
    I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Period. That has been proven to me time and time again, not through men but through God Himself. Yes, God uses men/women but ultimately you experience God spiritually…and emotionally. And some supernaturally. Unfortunately there are those who don’t live their lives as Jesus would have them…and in by doing so, put a bad name on those of us who truly try. There shouldn’t be animosity in this blog. Just state your opinion and live accordingly to it.

  • Iwanttobelieve

    The Christ only hung on the cross for three hours. He was pierced in the side by Saul (later called St. Paul) and blood and serous fluid came from his lung (the water and the wine of Communion) Maybe he was nailed through the hands, most convicts were tied to the cross after their arms and legs were broken. We see this in archeological finds of that era. Soooo. The Christ died quickly compared to others who had been crucified. Pilate believed him innocent and may have done this to hasten his death, for mercy. However the scourging at the pillar and crowning with thorns would show that Roman soldiers were not so inclined to mercy. I believe in the Shroud in this world of hard drives and concrete scenery it is sometimes difficult to hold onto the faith in Faith.

  • Peter

    Will04,

    Well, thousands of people, including top scientists and what not, have been studying all possible aspects of the shroud. Do you think they all forgot to read the Bible or something ?
    My guess is that no one will notice that you closed the case.

    Selina,

    You are right that practising the preaching is what it is all about. Also what you say about experiencing God I totally agree with.
    However, am I wrong when I suspect that you imagine that experiencing God is something only christians can do ? What if people of other religions (I remember a very sincere mormon young man, who told me in private that what his friend had said about the faith is really true. ‘God has told me so, Peter’) have the same kind of devotion to God, the same love for God and His creation, the same experiences of being safe and free in God’s love ? Does it count less ?
    I hope not.
    ‘The son of God’ obviously does not mean that God had sex with a goddes and she got pregnant with a boy. So what does it mean ? I believe this: the Christ consciousnes is God’s consciousness present in creation.
    Is there any reason, belief and conditioning not counting as such, to assume that no other human being could ever transmit that consciousness ? There are other spiritual giants that healed, preached love, even raised the dead. Since we are not at that level, is there any way we could compare Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Yogananda, Ammaji etc., and assess whose consciousness was more divine ? I think we shouldn’t try.

  • Peter

    Synchronicity….
    Just got this in the mail:
    ‘This galvanizing book, presenting the teachings of Christ from the experience and perspective of Paramhansa Yogananda, one of the greatest spiritual masters of the twentieth century, finally offers the fresh perspective on Christ’s teachings for which the world has been waiting. This book presents us with an opportunity to understand and apply the Scriptures in a more reliable way than any other: by studying under those saints who have communed directly, in deep ecstasy, with Christ and God.’

  • Randall

    Iwanttobelieve:

    Uh… Saul did NOT “pierce Christ” in the side or anywhere else at any time, IWTB. Saul never MET Jesus. (Unless you want to count having a vision of the same on the road, whilst Saul was on a trip to persecute some more Christians). You have your biblical figures mixed up.

    You’re thinking, I believe, of Longinus, the roman soldier who pierced Jesus thusly.

    Also, wrong on the “archeological finds” point about crucifixion. There is, in fact, very little–almost no–evidence of how crucifixion was carried out. Probably it was done in a myriad of ways, any one of which could have brought about the slow and painful death that was the point of it all.

    But by “slow” we don’t know HOW slow. (Again, because there’s so little evidence). It certainly varied from victim to victim.

    There would have been no reason to stab Jesus with a spear BUT to end his suffering… unless we consider that Longinus did it simply to further torture him. This seems unlikely, to me.

  • Scotty

    No JFK a little surprised.

  • will04

    Peter,

    If all the ‘thousands of people, including top scientists and what not’ will just read the Bible account in John 20, they will realize that the image on the cloth CANNOT be the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Shalom

  • Burning Eyes

    Why do some people find it necessary to use language that is considered vulgar? I was reading through the comments and finding the whole list interesting and then I’m forced to read someone’s idea of an intelligent comment. I was once told that people use vulgarity to cover up their ignorance. The comments made by 283. Jon ho; 282. Holy Immortal One and especially 275. The Supreme Being – have no use other than to embarrass, anger or disgust those who must read them.
    To the owner of this list: I’m assuming you have the capacity to edit the entire site, including comments. PLEASE delete those comments or at least those words. I appreciate the freedom to express any opinion and criticize anyone’s correspondence but when I read items like this I have to choose between enjoying the site and shutting myself out of interesting conversation. I would like to continue perusing this site occasionally but now am hesitant to do so.
    PLEASE take your vulgarity out of your comments. They serve no purpose other than showing everyone else what bottom-dwelling scum you are. If your mother taught you those words, shame on her and I’m sorry your life was so vile. If you wouldn’t use this language in front of your mother then shame on you.
    I know I am only one person and whether I visit this site or not makes absolutely no difference to anyone. I am just sick and tired of the filth that oozes out of some – dare I call them – “people”. There is no excuse and no reason and not everybody talks like that. Please be articulate and decent or SHUT UP. (I AM asking NICELY)

  • Scotty

    What about JFK, Nessie, Bigfoot/yeti, Devils Triangle, chupacabra, Atlantis, Amelia Erhart, Stonehedge and how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Pop?

  • will04

    Burning Eyes,

    Well said.

    One can comment or make a point without the need for vulgarity or filthy language..

  • 2 pennies

    All this talk about religion, god, athiesm, blah blah blah is off topic. I don’t want to read about anyone’s point of view, knowledge, belief, etc. about any of that. It doesn’t matter for the purposes of this list. This list is about mysteries – the Shroud of Turin being only one on the list. There is no proof positive on what it really is, when it was produced, etc. There is only enough information to make it an interesting mystery. This list is only one person’s top 10 mysteries and there are so many others that they can’t possibly be covered. I would like to read comments on the mysteries – NOT the beliefs or lack of beliefs behind them. If you don’t believe it’s a mystery then fine. If you are fascinated by what, where and why then talk about that. I promise I will not take up anyone’s time to write a long essay about what I believe. None of you are really interested anyway.

    Other than that I love the idea of this list.
    Posting a mystery and a link to learn about it would really be great.

  • crucifixion explained

    Crucifixion sometimes began with a scourging or flogging of the victim’s back. The Romans used a whip called a flagrum, which consisted of small pieces of bone and metal attached to a number of leather strands. During the scourging, the skin was ripped from the back, exposing a bloody mass of tissue and bone. Extreme blood loss occurred, often causing death, or at least unconsciousness.

    After the flogging, the victim was often forced to carry his own crossbar, or patibulum, to the execution site. The patibulum could easily weigh 100 pounds. Once the victim arrived at the execution site, the patibulum was put on the ground and the victim was forced to lie upon it. Spikes about 7 inches long and 3/8 of an inch in diameter were driven into the wrists. The spikes would hit the area of the median nerve, causing shocks of pain up the arms to the shoulders and neck. Already standing at the crucifixion site would be the 7-foot-tall post, called a stipes. In the center of the stipes was a crude seat to “support” for the victim. The patibulum was then lifted on to the stipes, and the victim’s body was awkwardly turned on the seat so that the feet could be nailed to the stipes. At this point, there was tremendous strain put on the wrists, arms and shoulders, resulting in a dislocation of the shoulder and elbow joints. The position of the nailed body held the victim’s rib cage in a fixed position, which made it extremely difficult to exhale, and impossible to take a full breath. As time passed, the loss of blood and lack of oxygen would cause severe cramps, spasmodic contractions and probably unconsciousness.

    Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs. Due to the shallow breathing, the victim’s lungs would begin to collapse in areas, probably causing hypoxia. Due to the loss of blood from the scourging, the victim probably formed a respiratory acidosis, resulting in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid would also build up in the lungs. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis, the heart would eventually fail.

  • 2 pennies

    298. Scotty
    This is totally unverified, of course, but I heard once that someone actually counted the number of licks to the center of a Tootsie pop and notified *(I forget what candy company makes them). They supposedly sent this person a whole case!
    Probably not true but I think it’s a fun idea. I always wanted to do that but never could lick all the way to the center without biting!!!

  • ed

    One of the biggest mysteries of all time was left off.
    What happened to Amelilia Earhardt, with so many theories and questions this should have been if not number one at least one of them.

  • rick

    i thought they caught the zodiac killer

  • gears

    I think there is still mystery surrounding the “recovery” of the bodies of John F. Kennedy, Jr., wife, and sister-in-law that makes me think the bodies were not recovered. I know there was “scant media coverage–or propaganda” of body containers being loaded on a ship and very little media coverage of the Kennedy clan on a boat going out to the crash site for a ceremony and flowers being tossed in the water…”after the bodies were supposedly back on shore.” My question, “what would be the point of the Kennedy family going back to the crash site and having a ceremony and flowers in the water” AFTER the bodies were back on shore??? Also, it was said that the bodies were cremated. Being staunch Catholics, I find this interesting as Catholics do not believe in cremation–therefore, if the bodies were recovered, why would the family decide to cremate them against Catholic doctrine? Any thoughts or comments to make me believe the bodies were acutually recovered?

  • 297. Burning Eyes: I found the comments of that person posting under several names (Holy Immortal One, The Supreme Being, etc.) offensive also, but the fact is that you were *NOT* forced to read them.
    As soon as you discovered the content of the posts to be offensive, you had the choice to skip over the post and go on to the next.
    One *always* has a choice.
    Go to the movie or don’t go to it.
    Read the book or don’t read it.
    Watch the t.v. show or don’t watch it.
    Have an abortion or don’t have one.
    Be critical of your child or be loving.
    Be cross with your neighbor or be kind.
    Pay cash for your purchases or run up debt.
    Life presents us with choices at every turn. It’s up to us to make the right choices as many times as possible.
    Some of the choices are easy: ‘don’t read the post which offends me’.
    Some of the choices are more difficult:’pay cash rather than run up debt’.
    Making good choices almost every time makes you a happier person, and gives you far less to complain about.
    I know this looks like an overreaction to your one simple comment.
    It’s really in reaction to many complaints, yours just gave me a jumping off point.

  • 305. gears…Catholics do not believe in cremation…
    ****
    That used to be true, but is true no longer. Catholics are now free to choose cremation.

  • segue: the Code of Canon Law permits it only in the cases of pestilence, or when the person requesting it does so without reasons contrary to the teachings of the Church:

    “[cremation is not forbidden] unless it has been chosen for reasons which are contrary to Christian teaching” Canon 1176, #3

    There generally has to be a good reason – considering it is so vehemently opposed traditionally:

    Canon 1203: The bodies of the faithful must be buried, and cremation is reprobated. If any one has in any manner ordered his body to be cremated, it shall be unlawful to execute his wish; if this order has been attached to a contract, a last will, or any other document, it is to be considered as not added. — 1917 Code of Canon Law

  • Selina

    Peter- I think that other people -non-christians- can have an “experience” with God…yes. But they can not, and I repeat, CAN NOT have a relationship with the Lord unless they first come to believe and know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
    In response to your question/statement on how Jesus is God’s Son…I encourage you to read “The Shack” by William P. Young. It explains the Holy Trinity in a way I cold never explain. Please read it.

  • Speaker of Truth

    #289 Will04: the different gospels give different accounts of the linen that Jesus was wrapped in but this doesn’t prove or disprove the Shroud of Turin.

    What does it matter? “The Just shall live by Faith.” I mean if everything in the Bible could be scientifically proven then the world would have no choose but to believe it. God wants us to live by faith and trust in Him and believe all these things without solid proof. The Bible to me is proof enough. I mean I don’t really care what the Shroud of Turin is.

    Peace.

  • 308. jfrater: Thank you for your excellent correction.
    I had been given the information, that Pope John John Paul 2 has made the change, by someone whose word I trust sufficiently to not fact check. A very high level of trust, and one I do not give lightly, if ever.

  • Neil

    I find it amazing that many people who mock faith have even more ridiculous beliefs than their religious counterparts. 1) UFO’s – Sure the universe is huge but where is the one shred of evidence that there is even bacteria out there? 2) Psychics – Still waiting for that “Psychic Wins The Lottery” headline.
    3) CO2 is driving Global Warming – There has always been warming and cooling periods throughout the Earths history, long before man arrived. How does doubling, tripling or quadrupling CO2, which makes up 0.035% of our atmosphere do anything to warm the climate?
    With beliefs like this Atheists and Agnostics are hardly in a position to call anyone naive.

  • plug the ug

    I think I am right and you are not :)

  • Jon ho

    the babushka lady … that aint no lady
    its obviously Hitler out to seek his revenge
    and the thing hes holdn is a bottle of wiskey … its very stressful bein an ass!

  • Jon ho

    and since when did jesus have massive tenticles comn out of his head!?!?
    look at the cloth WHAT THE HELL? cant be hair … can it?

  • ibelieve

    To the Supreme Being and Jon Ho. Your kind of remarks are not necessary. There is some of us that enjoy some peoples comments and how there minds work on the above subjects. If you can not say anyting intelligent please stay of the sight.

  • The Supreme Being’s Master

    dude, this site is full of people who love to have a good debate, but that kind of shit is not acceptable here. thats not debate, you have made an idiot of yourself.

  • Jon ho

    aww im sorry i forgot to actually state what i thought
    the Shroud of Turin isnt a fake how could people way back then fake something like that not to metion why. Why would they want to it might be jesus might not be but there is no way it could be fake science sez so

    oh and sory for the whole hitler and jesus havn tenticles thing totally uncalled for i respect thoz who belive

  • zxTIGERxz

    Rose: I don’t think the ocean can fit in your pocket. Great article by the way,(I know this is the wrong place to post this but) I hope you make a fourth.

  • Jamie:
    I would normally send this in a private email, but I think a public “Thank You” is in order here.
    I’m well aware of you’re of firm stance against censorship, mine is just as strong, but I agree with you on this.
    Thank you for making this list a more pleasant place for those of us who are trying to have an honest debate.

  • gears

    The point of my thoughts wasn’t whether John Jr. was cremated, but rather why did the Kennedy family go back out to the crash site AFTER THE BODIES WERE SUPPOSEDLY RECOVERED and have a family ceremony. The actions of the family makes me think that their bodies were not recovered, but was staged for Americans to think John Jr’s. body was recovered.

    ANY THOUGHTS?

  • ibelieve

    Gears,

    On the point of thought. Even some animals return to the spot
    where there had been death maybe that is why humans do it. In the case of the Kennedy family maybe they needed to say a final good-bye.

    PS. To The Supreme Being’s Master I am not a dude….

  • Doug

    As an art student who graduated with a BFA, I critiqued the shroud from an art history standpoint. It is a painting and the artist was unfamiliar with human proportion. For instance, the forehead is too short when comparing the length from the chin to the nose tip and the nose tip to the eyebrows. Those two lengths are the same but the eyebrow to the hairline is severely shortened.
    Next, the arms are too long for the hands to be crossed over the groin area. Anybody can try it; only a creature with long ape-like arms would be able to cross the hands in the position they are found on the shroud. These are not human proportions. If you digitally move the arms to be straight at the sides, you will see the hands extend almost past the knee caps.

  • 323. Doug, you might or might not have a BFA, but you have your body proportions wrong.
    When I lie flat and fold my arms as they are folded on the shroud , I easily cover my groin.
    I’ve seen, and handled, the original film taken during the scientific inquiry into the shrouds authenticity.
    I also have a BFA in art (Photography), with many post grad hours to my credit, but funny thing, while my Art studies touched on normal anatomical parameters, it didn’t go into depth, like say, if I was studying to be a physician.
    Did yours?
    As I look around me, one thing I notice is the remarkable difference in body type from one person to the next, not to mention one ethnic group to the next. Do Zulu have the same body proportions as the Inuit? Do the Swedes have the same body proportions as the Pygmy?
    And those are just absurd swings of difference. All you really have to do is walk down the street of any city, and you’ll see an amazing range of body types, arm lengths, forehead heights, eye separations, cheekbone heights, brow bone extension, earlobe length and on and on and on…
    And no, I do not believe in the shroud. Your argument was just absurd.

  • I think therefore

    Sorry.
    The shroud of turin is a fake because jesus didnt exist or if he did was some wandering nut preacher.
    Either way its either a fake shroud of some poor dead guy or just a bit of cloth of some poor dead guy whos tomb has been raided. Maybe its some old bit of cloth thats been sitting on a statue for years.But a special magical cloth from a deity it is not.
    Religious people should be seen and not heard, they tend to be fanatical and dangerous and humanly immoral and will believe anything even made up stuff if it justifies their religious egos and predudice.

  • zxTIGERxz

    TO: I think therefore

    I like how you use facts to support what you say. HA!

  • 325. I think therefore I don’t have to spell properly or use proper sentence structure.

  • I think therefore

    Im sorry about sentence structure and spelling
    I went to a catholic school and spelling wasn’t as important as buggering students and beating us up and filling our lives with fear and hate etc etc etc etc.
    As to facts I didnt think facts were of any issue to those with faith.

  • I went to 13 years of Catholic school, and not only can I spell just about anything, I can parse a sentence in a trice.
    What’s your next excuse?

  • zxTIGERxz

    Well, well, aren’t you just full of excuses “I think therefore”!
    That is very ignorant to say that just because you believe in God means you don’t believe in facts.

  • Allen

    good and exellent

  • I think therefore

    “I went to 13 years of Catholic school, and not only can I spell just about anything, I can parse a sentence in a trice.
    What’s your next excuse?”

    I don’t need any excuses, however I’ve figured out something about you. So you’re a motherfcker who’s taught in a Catholic school for 13 fcking years. I can only imagine how many children you must have f*cked up by now. Now don’t come up with the “excuse” that you haven’t ever been teaching and fuc*ing students in a Catholic school. Hope you aren’t fuc*ing up your own children now. Even better, I hope you’ve no children and never have any. But if you’ve, God saves them!!!

  • I think therefore

    OI …. I didnt write that last entry.
    get your own name mate !

  • Cyn

    I think therefore –

    please read https://listverse.com/comment-faq

    let’s play nice children!
    ;)

  • I think therefore

    Identity theft everyone !!!!!!

  • zxTIGERxz

    I hope for your sake that wasn’t you. Whoever that was just showed how ignorant and foolish they are.

  • 333. I think therefore: I believe you. I believe I know who it was.

  • Post # 338 is not mine. I was not up at 4: 09 a.m. to post anything.
    At 4:09 a.m. I am attached to breathing machines. I can’t get up to post anything.

  • zxTIGERxz

    Who do you think it is segue?

  • 339. zxTIGERxz: Who do you think it is segue?
    ****
    TIGER, I’m unwilling to make accusations in public without anything more than a hunch.
    The post gave some pretty valid clues, but still, I’m not going to take the chance of being wrong, and naming an innocent person. I’m not like that.

  • zxTIGERxz

    I see, good point. Sorry, I thought you knew for sure who it was that’s all.

  • TIGER: I’m as close to sure as I can be, but without proof it remains a hunch (legally, you’d say it lacked sufficient proof to take to trial). Personally? Yeah, I know.
    Legally, morally? Nu huh.
    Even if I had proof, I wouldn’t say so here in public. I’d e.mail jfrater privately and tell him, presenting him with the proof and letting him take the lead.
    Perhaps that’s what I have done.
    The thing is, I won’t say one way or the other in public. That’s not fair.

  • zxTIGERxz

    Once again, good point. But that is none of my business.

  • segue

    343. zxTIGERxz: Once again, good point. But that is none of my business.
    ***
    TIGER, if it’s none of your business, then get the hell out of here. This is the place for the intellectuals and not amateurs. So better get back to your position, okay? And that’s pretty fair.
    Again, do I need to say that Post # 344 is not mine?

  • TIGER, obviously, 344 is not mine.

  • May I ask why you are playing this game?

  • Charlie

    Have you noticed we’re getting off topic?

    ATTENTION EVERYONE. PLEASE DO NOT STEAL SOMEONE ELSES IDENTITY TO GIVE THEM A BAD NAME OR JUST BECAUSE YOU’RE NOT CREATIVE ENOUGH TO MAKE YOUR OWN!!!!!!!

  • zxTIGERxz

    Whoever 344 is why don’t you stop being a coward and get your own identity you pathetic piece of garbage?

  • Jamie, Cyn, everyone! I think you all know me well enough by now to know that I would never post something like #344.
    What surprises me is that he admits, at the end of the post, *NOT* to be me.
    It’s weird. It’s like being stalked by someone with major guilt issues.
    Ah, well, I’ve been through worse.
    Just use your own name fella, okay?
    I’m not going to be angry. Really. You’ve gotten my attention. Now share whatever it is you want to tell me, and lets be done with it. But no more using my name. Go back to your own.
    NOW!

  • zxTIGERxz

    @ the REAL segue, I don’t know you that well but you seem intelligent enough not to post such ridiculous comments. Whoever this is is just making his/herself look like a fool!

  • Thank you,TIGER. I appreciate the support, particularly since the person masquerading as me has been the one attacking you.
    Believe me, I’m mortified by this. I truly wish that whoever it is who’s doing this would just tell me what it is he wants.
    Usually, though, they just want attention.

  • zxTIGERxz

    No problem, I’m just tired of this kind of stuff, it happens on these types of websites all of the time! Pretty sad when you have to resort to identity theft to get attention online though.

  • Cyn

    sorry but i don’t know of any way for people w/out adminstrative access to this site to prevent someone from ‘impersonating’ another user by using that username.

    best i can suggest ..is to comment ..as has been done…clarify who is making the comment and refute any prior comments wrongly attributed.

    frankly..
    think its not only lame and immature to impersonate someone but extremely cowardly. and for what purpose? is your life that meaningless, insignificant, pointless and boring you have to resort to something so infantile?

    seriously…
    comment using your own username! or do not comment at all!!

    again…
    i’d suggest going to forums and using the PMs there to exchange emails if there are ever any disputes between commentors here. using comments on lists to resolve disputes or thrash out personal issues is not only inappropriate and against the rules…it takes away from the list, the other commentors and in general makes this place a lot less fun for everyone esle. so if you do have issues that are NOT list related…take it up in forums please.

    these comments are representative of my own opinions NOT of this site…even tho i’m an admin here. just getting tired of weird shit going on in comments. so cool it. geesh!

  • zxTIGERxz

    @ cyn THANK YOU!!! That is what I’m talking about!

  • astraya

    Can’t there be some automatic part of the comment posting procedure that prevents people from (re-)using a username that already exists? That is, if someone tires to post a message by the username “Cyn” and an email address that is not yours, they get a message saying “That username is taken. Please chose another one.”

  • Cyn

    astraya –
    well, if you register..maybe. i’m not sure of the technical aspects….defer to J on that.
    ;)
    also…too lazy to sign out to see if i can comment w/out registering or attempt to register under a different name etc…someone so motivated to try it…lemme know what happens. :)

  • 353. Cyn: Maybe I’m misunderstanding you( I’m exhausted from lack of sleep and, as is usual, slightly befuddled by the amount of opiates required to make life livable) but I read your answer as if I am to blame for someone else using my name to gain attention.
    Blaming me for the actions of whomever it is, is like blaming the house for the failure of the mortgage.
    That it’s my attention they’re attempting to gain is an assumption on my part, and could be a mile off.
    It could be general attention he/she/it wants.
    I don’t know.
    I thought I did, at first. Things changed. I’m clueless, and I resent the suggestion that I take an unknown someone to Forums to discuss heaven knows what.

  • Cedestra

    No, I think she’s yelling at whomever took your pseudonym and calling them cowardly, lame, immature, etc. (which I agree, having been a victim). Although, it was a tad flattering underneath the visage of violation. It means you got somewhere enough that people had to copy you in order to get attention. Of course, I think of it more like if Amy Winehouse were to see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSTBCkarbYc

  • Gina

    I’ve studied about the Shroud of Turin for years. I’m not a scientist though but I have studied what the scientists say. I have come to my own opinion.
    However, I will say that there is much disagreement among the experts so talking hatefully about people who believe that the Shroud is not a fake shows something more than a grasp of science.
    As someone said earlier, whether the Shroud is a fake or not does not change what I believe. And if it were not a fake, it wouldn’t change the mind of people who do not believe either.
    But I will say this: It’s not always true and there are always exceptions, but if you go back and look at the way people who do not believe in Jesus act compared to the ones who do, you will see a difference. Like I said, it doesn’t always hold true because some who claim to be Christian are not. But throughout my life and I’m up there in years, I have experienced the grace and love of Christian people and the sarcasm and hate from those who are not.
    Of course, some will probably reply that they were treated badly by Christians so I will tell you this: If someone lives a life of consistent hate and treating others wrongly, they are not Christians.
    Satan uses those people to make Christianity look bad. They go to every church and they show up on threads like this one and guess what: Those who want to be biased against Christians use them to support their own anti-Christ jargon. That way, in their own mind, they are excused from serving Christ. Simple as that.

  • Cyn

    segue & Cedestra
    don’t think i was yelling at anyone ;)
    as for the comment itself…that was more rhetorical and not directed at anyone in particular.

    if someone uses someone else’s username…the ‘real’ user should refute those comments by making comments themselves to clarify. if it gets really bad..then just re register under a different username.

    atm – i do not know of any way for a commenter to protect that name…since we are not showing email addys or IPs (only admins see that). no idea how that glitch can be remedied either. leave that to J to figure out ..if its possible.

    and i would suggest if anyone ever has an issue w/ me…they email me. comments are not the place to hash out issues.
    [email protected]

    k?
    :)

  • N.J

    Comte de Saint Germain and the Mary Celeste don’t seem like the most ENTERTAINING mystery today, not saying they arn’t interesting. We need a list of “Top 10 Unsolved Mysteries of 2000s” Like up to date things. That’s just my opinion.

  • AT8FATES

    #279 I think that the real “supreme being” would know that the “How” to which he were referring wasnt a question….and would further know the answer to #298’s question is still “3” and has been since i was a kid…

    Peace,
    AT8FATES

  • michelle

    the top ten unsolved mysteries were amazing …………… it really made me afraid

  • michelle silva

    when i am still an elementary i was very interested in mysteries ………. i also find something within me but i cant explain it..i hope you can help me

  • michelle silva, when kids get around the age of 13 or 14 they start going through a phase called puberty. Usually boys start to grow really tall really fast, and their voice gets lower. And Girls gain more weight on their hips and their body forms an hour glass formation.
    for more information
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty

  • michelle silva

    Paulb, thanks for your advice but the info you have provided is total scrap. can someone else help me? Paulb, you please dont bother helping me and if you dont give it another try, i shall be very much grateful to you. hope you understand. once again, thank you very much.

  • 366. michelle silva: You give NO information to go on. No one can help you unless we understand what it is you need help with.
    Please explain your fear, your problem, what is worrying you. Any of us would be glad to help, if only we knew what help was required.

  • michelle silva

    thanks to you too segue, but i dont need help from fools. yet if you want to help me, please dont make any further efforts to help me. hope you can understand at least that much.

  • 364. michelle silva: when i am still an elementary i was very interested in mysteries ………. i also find something within me but i cant explain it..i hope you can help me
    **
    365. Paulb: michelle silva, when kids get around the age of 13 or 14 they start going through a phase called puberty. Usually boys start to grow really tall really fast, and their voice gets lower. And Girls gain more weight on their hips and their body forms an hour glass formation.
    for more information
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty
    **
    366. michelle silva: Paulb, thanks for your advice but the info you have provided is total scrap. can someone else help me? Paulb, you please dont bother helping me and if you dont give it another try, i shall be very much grateful to you. hope you understand. once again, thank you very much.
    **
    367. segue: michelle silva: You give NO information to go on. No one can help you unless we understand what it is you need help with.
    Please explain your fear, your problem, what is worrying you. Any of us would be glad to help, if only we knew what help was required.
    **
    368. michelle silva: thanks to you too segue, but i dont need help from fools. yet if you want to help me, please dont make any further efforts to help me. hope you can understand at least that much.
    ****
    Obviously, michelle silva, what you need is a mind reader.

  • michelle silva

    hello everyone, just want to clarify that 368 is not actually my comment. its someone with same name as mine. so please dont misunderstand me to be that one.

  • They got you, too?
    I’m sorry.
    I apologize for my post. The person who posted under your name also posted under mine. It’s a feeling of violation, I understand that.

  • nabhi

    Hi ,I was reading the cipher decryption of zodiac apart from the last 18 letters there are errors in spelling which i noticed in the decrypted message like”DANGEROUE ANAMAL”.
    Is this an error on the decryption or part of the cipher?

  • zxTIGERxz

    It amazes me that this identity theft crap is still going on, grow up people!

  • Ric

    The Shroud of Turin HAS been proven fake.

  • ty

    sick

  • zxTIGERxz

    To Ric= Why don’t you post a link and prove what you said instead of just saying it WITHOUT facts?

  • michelle silva

    its all right, segue. btw, it’s weird that someone’s playing games here, isnt it? whoever it is really arouses a kinda feeling of rage (though temporary until the real poster makes clarification that someone’s being using his/her identity) in one against another and thus has succeeded to some extent in his/her intention. such minds are also unsolved mysteries, what do you people feel? we dismiss them as sick but i feel they’re something more than just sick. but what? an unsolved mystery??

  • nothing

    its all right i guess i did`t find anything for my report.

    that sucks i know right but it dosen`t mean this web site sucks so
    later,

    someone

  • nothing

    its all right i guess i did`t find anything for my report.
    that sucks :)

  • 379. nothing & 380. nothing
    Having trouble with short-term memory much?

  • ni-ni renaye

    I dont understnad why u have published this nonscence for anyways. this is bogus!

  • michelle silva

    comment no. 369 and 370. can anyone please explain me what’s nothing talking about?

  • zxTIGERxz

    Who cares what whoever that in is talking about.

  • do you mean 379 and 380? Those are the only comments by “nothing” I could find recently.

  • michelle silva

    and segue no. 368 its not my comment ………but im the one who no 363 ,364………..

  • Peter & sugue’s Mom

    Where in the hell did you two learn to say those things?
    Who told you to watch too much porn… better not let me catch you watching.

    segue, you talk like you’re some god or something. Is this what you do for living? and Peter, always pray after masturbating… don’t listen to segue, he’s just a piece of shit!

  • astraya

    Iwanttobelieve (291):
    He was pierced in the side by Saul (later called St. Paul)

    Maybe you should start by wanting to read – the bible would be a good start. Jesus was speared by an unnamed Roman soldier.

  • Peter, my mum is dead. Furthermore, I’m not a “he”.
    You lose.

  • Peter

    @seque,
    387 wasn’t mine. Sorry about yout mother.

  • Peter

    @ Selina
    Now that I’m here:
    ‘Peter- I think that other people -non-christians- can have an “experience” with God…yes. But they can not, and I repeat, CAN NOT have a relationship with the Lord unless they first come to believe and know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.’

    First of all, having an ‘experience’ means having a relationship, obviously. Secondly, repeating your conviction, or repeating it 10.000 times, doesn’t make it anything else than it is: telling others something you cannot know yourself.
    I’ve read to many accounts and witnessed too many instances of divine love happening, to attach any value to statements like yours, apparantly founded on cultural or religious conditioning.

    I tell you, anyone, I repeat, anyone, and I repeat again, anyone, I mean ANYONE, can have a conscious relationship with God.

  • Selina

    Peter- I must have been confused or maybe I just took your question wrong, but when you asked me my opinion…i figured you wanted it. I didn’t really expect you to get so upset about it. And when you said “experience”…yea, I don’t have an “experience” with my husband every day and expect those “experiences” to make my marriage work. I have a ” relationship” with him. A relationship requires more than an experience…just as my relationship with God requires more than an experience. So that’s how i took your question to me…forgive me for messing that up. As far as my answer being based off of a “religious conditioning”…hmm, well…sure I have guidelines to my belief…as does EVERY religion…and most people have an experience with God due to their belief…most people who seek out that experience have some type of idea where to go or what to look for. But as i said before, in what I believe in…my belief and opinion is that Jesus was and is the Son of God…and that what He did and does for me…is very real and true. And due to the fact that I have an ongoing relationship with Him, He has shown me the truth in this world from the lies. Through His teaching, He is the only way. And that’s just what I believe in. I’m not trying to prove you wrong or convince you otherwise, but if you truly want to know God…then try to. Ask Him to show you the truth from the lies. If you truly want that, then He’ll do it…and if you don’t care, then that’s cool too. As i said earlier, i was just answering your your reply and question. No offense or disrespect intended.

  • #390. Peter: @seque, 387 wasn’t mine. Sorry about yout mother.
    ****
    Thank you.
    I’m not surprised it wasn’t you. There is some sick joker who keeps on “borrowing” other people’s names with the seeming singular intention of poking fun at me, thereby making an ass of himself.
    Next, he’ll probably “borrow” my name because I said something naughty about him. Just watch. Something totally out of character will be posted under my name.
    I’m tired of it. I’m too ill, under too much medication for this to be an enjoyable “game”.

  • michelle silva

    hi segue im the one who make the comment no.363, 364 last october 26 i just want to clarrify you that the thing i am talking about is not puberty ……366 , 368 is not my comment thank you for trying to help

  • 394. michelle silva: I’m just very sorry I couldn’t be of any help. I hope you find someone who can help you soon.

  • zxTIGERxz

    Maybe a psychiatrist lol.

  • michelle silva

    tnk u segue ………i look for someone to help me someday

  • Ketan Pandit

    Truly engrossing!

  • michelle silva

    zxTIGERxz, actually it’s you who needs a psychiatrist and believe me, you need it badly. and ya, this time it’s definitely me. you need help more than i need. hope you get it before it’s too late, or is it already??

  • michelle silva

    zxTIGERxz, actually it’s you who needs a psychiatrist and believe me, you need one badly. you need help far more than me. i hope you get it before it’s too late, or is it already too late?? anyways, get well soon. and ya, this time it’s definitely me myself.

  • Shree

    The last Word of Zodiac killer looks like these when they are simply split:
    EBEOR I ETEM ETH HPITI (BEFORE I MEET THE ‘HPITI’)

  • Or, Before I meet the hip it.
    Still makes no sense, but at least makes words.

  • geppu

    Jack the Ripper, according to the Metropolitan Police, was with 99.9% certainty a Polish, schizophrenic Jew called Kozminski. He was high on the list of suspects at the time and the Police Commissioner wrote in his notes that they believed it was him. The Police Commissioner’s grandson has published the notes subsequently. Most damning of all for Kozminski, was that he was arrested and the police wanted to charge him with the murders, but his friend (name I can’t remember) who told the police he knew it was him, refused to testify as Kozminski was a fellow Jew. He was institutionalised for his mental condition and the murders stopped immediately, as did the police funding to continue the investigation. This would have been highly irregular, as even Queen Victoria had become involved and wanted results from the Met Police. Why, if they didn’t have the culprit in some form of isolation, would they pack up half way through what was possibly the most sensational case ever in the UK? Kozminski was also known to hate women, particularly prostitutes and talked of killing them. This is all from memory, but a 6 or 8 part documentary can be found about this on youtube. I haven’t read all the comments but hope I’m not repeating someone else’s comments.
    One more mystery of interest to some would be Spring Healed Jack. A very bizarre, interesting and again unsolved case.

  • Charles Fort, master of all things bizarre and coincidental, wrote comprehensively on Spring Heeled Jack.
    He also wrote scads and scads on Jack the Ripper.
    Although his writings are of interest, I have to warn: this was a man who spent his entire adult life with newspapers from all around the globe, a pair of scissors, and a pot of glue. He made things fit his own world-view.
    That being said, I urge anyone who finds these things of interest, even, like me, to make fun of them, to find a second-hand copy of The Complete Works of Charles Fort through Amazon or Abe Books…you should be able to find a copy for about $1.00…and get many hours of entertainment out of the deal.

  • Navydude

    Why is the biggest mystery of all times NOT covered in these topics? How in the Seven Wonders Of the World did G.W. Bush become president of the United States Of America. You can not execute the mentally handi-capped in this country, but you can make the President. Oh, good grief.

  • Navydude, he’s out of our lives in 58 days. Stiff upper lip, chappie. He’s almost gone.

  • zxTIGERxz

    @ ‘Navydude’ I think your the load your mom should have swallowed.

  • The Beatles

    The world is treating me bad… Mistery.

    I’m the kind of guy, who never used to cry, the world is treatin’ me bad… Mistery!

    I’ve lost her now for sure, I won’t see her no more, it’s gonna be a drag… Mistery!

    I’ll remember all the little things we’ve done. Can’t she see she’ll always be the only one, only one.

    Send her back to me, ’cause everyone can see. Without her I will be in mistery.

  • OK, I’m confused. What on earth do you mean?

  • Green Is Good

    The Voynich Manuscript is fascinating. To me, the women illustrated look like they’re in various stages of pregnancy. May be the herbs drawn are intended for women with problems during pregnancy or birth?

    The Count of St. Germain was featured in a series of entertaining novels written by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro. I recommend them. Very entertaining reading.

    Thanks for putting together this list. It’s quite interesting.

  • James

    Hi, I’m 16 and have just read your above articles. I have thoroughly studied many mysteries of the ancient world, such as Poriious and the Treasure of the Crauz. Two links above have caught my attention, The Zodiac Killer, and the Voynich Manuscript. I think that the Manuscript is decipherable, thanks to a book that has been passed on through generations of my family. The book is said to be thousands of years old but no one knows the origins of it.
    My great great grandfather believed he had deciphered the first three pages and worked out the code but no-one knows where he kept his work.

    I will keep you updated if anything arises.

  • Navydude

    @zxTIGERxz Be glad YOUR mother did’nt swallow my load, or you wouldn’t have been born, you JERK-OFF piece of crap. There was absolutly no reason in the world for a comment like that. Go back to the youtube chat like all the rest of the uneducated moronic burdens of life. I bet you still live in your mommys house, and go into a rage if she doesn’t get the skid marks out of your pampers. You are just the type of person that should be RUN OVER on the information highway. Mindless comments like that one are DEffinatly not a mystery to anyone. You Are A piece of Crap, So go smoke your crack pipe, suck on your moms teet, and sponge off of her till your thirty nine, and stay off the computer. Ass hole!

  • zxTIGERxz

    @Navydude

    Considering YOUR the one coming on here talking about George Bush when this has nothing to do with him shows how laughably pathetic you are. I see I struck a nerve seeing all of those hateful comments with no facts to support them. Thank you for showing you intelligence!

  • Navydude

    AH!, But no denial. You make one of the rudest comments on this web page, and now your trying to be a sophisticate? Why did you not comment on the moronic ramblings of the worst offender on this site?, zxTIGERxz. There are many wonderful mysteries on this planet, some are beautiful, some are bizzar in nature, and some are totally mind boggling. The most mind boggling one of all is the baby born with a coat hanger through his head. His mother nicked named him “zxTIGERxz”. poor zxTIGERxz never had any friends, because his mother always hung him in the closet. One day his mother(Wait a minute,zxTIGERxz could be a her, concidering that at birth, there was no dicernable penis to be found, So from now on , “zxTIGERxz” shall be called “IT”),anyway,one day his mother grew extremely weary of the sobbing and whinning from the closet that he shared with his brother who was born with no arms or legs.(His name was mat) So she reached into her crack fund, forgoing her usual daily fix, and bought It a new devise called a computer. This magic box came discounted from It’s mothers pimp. No one knows exactly where the magic computer was manufactured, but for ten dollars and four acts of falacio on the pimps dog, how could Its mother go wrong. Besides it kept It quiet,so she could earn her living in the bedroom of their trailer home.
    Now this magic box had so transformed It from a mini-lightning rod, to a degenrate, whining piece of crap, who’s only purpose in life seems to be to insult every one on a web page, no matter the topic. It would exact Its revenge on the cold cruel world that left It hanging in that closet, and having to watch all his mothers cutomers, clean themselves on Its brother Mat. So I guess the “Nerve” that was struck was the very fact that now everyone on this site who reads this will NOW and forever more refer to zxTIGERxz as It. (ie. Oh there goes the poor coathanger kid, Don’t pay it any attention, it’s only It).To further illistrate, “It’s only It, It must be upset because Its mother used him as an antenna again last night. She is going to kick It out of the trailer,when they can no longer get reception, So you have to feel sorry for the mentally handicapped It, because, come Feb. ’09, It is going to be homeless,because Its mother will no longer be able to use her circa 1974 T.V.” So everyone reading this, Every time IT makes a comment, just dimiss it by thinking “It’s only It”. Goodday It. Oh before I go, answer me this. How in the world is that the coathanger through your head is plastic? Please feel free to retort with some juvinile ramblings. I will just dismiss it as “It’s Only It”. That Ok With You It?

  • Peter

    @ tiger and navy
    How about not wasting your own and everybody else’s time ?

  • zxTIGERxz

    @Navydude

    I must say I’m impressed with the fact that you took the time to write a whole two paragraphs about me!(Even though I read none of it.) I think you need to take a break from computers if your willing to write two paragraphs to try and win a pointless argument. Shall we continue?

  • Navydude

    as long as It continues to make rude and offensive comments to everyones opinions,and comments, then I shall personally make it my lot in life to get It off this forum, so that each of us can freely express our opinions without the vulgar expressions of “The Coathanger Kid”, belittling them. as far as impressing It, that is not the pupose of this friction. Please refer to comment #407. I think It expressed Itself with the intelect that was afforded him,even though It is a coathanger kid. But I appologize to you Peter, and all the other “bloggers” (Except It), and hope that you realize that It is a travisty of our failing youth.

  • Cyn

    whoa! can we chill on the nasty rhetoric please? geesh. innuendo and belitting comments can be just as offensive as cursing.
    referring to a human being as ‘it’ ..i deem highly offensive. :(

  • Peter

    The question is: why will people stop posting meaningless and negative stuff ? Will they let themselves be sent away, bullied away or cursed away ? No. People stop doing things when they run out of steam.
    Navydude and Tiger, like it or not, you are each other’s steam.

  • Navydude

    Again, Cyn and peter. I refer you to comment #405, and then to comment #407, and tell me if my comment waranted a response like that one. As to The calling of zxtigerxz “It”, that is a reference to the term that the maniac in the movie “Silence Of The Lambs” called his victems that he felt not even worthy of the air that they breathed. You both are right in the respect that this is not the place for a “Fued”, however, As a retired Gulf war veteran, I was always taught to retaliate to attacks with equal or greater force. I will appologize to zxtigerxz for the term “It”, because he/she is a human being. Maybe not much of one, But I will RE-PARAPHRASE the the movie line to fit the situation zxtigerxz must put on the lotion.

  • Peter

    Navydude,
    I looked at 405 and 407. The answer is: no, 407 is not an appropriate reaction.
    So ?
    Let’s face it, none of the stuff you and tiger wrote is in any way apropriate, uplifting, meaningful etc.
    I’m sure the strategy you mention works fine in war. As a social code however it’s not very helpful. Nor christian. Or even nice. Nothing positive ever came out of negativity.
    Kudo’s for apologising though. Would have been nicer if it wasn’t followed by ‘but not really’, but still.
    OK enough preaching. All the best and thanks for your service as a trooper.

  • Navydude

    peter, It was Samual Butler who said “It hath been said that an unjust peace is to be preferred before a just war”. This I have always believed in. and so to zxtigerxz, recant, apologize for the comment, and assure the fine people of this forum that any further comments made by you will at least be tactful and not tastelessly rude and vulgar. Until then, I am retired and have not much else to do at times than to play games with self indulged crass people like you.

  • laurab

    hello

  • laurab

    this is to “navydude” and “tiger”. I searched quite a few comments, and only saw the one comment about Bush from “navydude”. It seems to me that the uncalled for attack on his first entry on this site from “tiger” was TOTALLY uncalled for. Maybe Navydude went a little too far, but as a Gulf war vet. also (Nurse in the Army) I can understand Navydudes point. Tiger is probably some kid who happened to come across this web site by accident, and saw that it will send responses and posts to his juvinile retoric, and decided to stick around. It is a shame though that navydude seems to be the one fighting the lone war on tigerisms. As for comment number 407, no one else stood up,so to speak, and told tiger that he was way out of line. Can one dismiss a bitting insect by ignoring it? Thank You navydude for your service, but please stop the slanderous and also rude comments to him. You are stooping to his level.

  • Cyn

    ok, ok..i get the ‘it reference’ now…still, damned chilling scene from a damned chilling movie to ref. anyway…
    just calm down peoples. its just the internet not some tactical manuver on a battleground.

    k?

    and can we at least try to treat each other …i dunno. gimme a word that’ll work here..
    *sigh*

  • The REAL zxTIGERxz

    Holy crap! I leave for the weekend and look what happens, the identity thief has struck again! The disgusting comment about ugh “load” and every comment after that by this so called zxTIGERxz were not mine! This is getting ridiculous! My dad is a former U.S. Marine, the last thing I would do is insult Navydude. Sorry for this confusion but this is getting ridiculous!

  • Cyn

    zxTIGERxz & navydude –
    having done some checking..
    LOL @ both of ya’ll. get a room guyz.
    ;)

  • laurab

    Will the real slim shady please stand up,please stand up. Unfortunatly, for me to even have a halfway intellegent conversation on this site has already been muddyed, and so , i am sorry that I did not get to share the fasinating topics of the unexplained mysteries of this world that I have had the priveledge of seeing some of the “seven wonders of the world” up close,personally. as I have always had a deep pasion for such topics as the Battery they found in stonee dating before the history of man, I must in all consiousness seperate from this forum due to the vulger and admittedly stupid comments made by me. anything further that I would state will still be stained from my previous comments. I appologize venomously to all for sullieing such a fine site as this one. If in the future, you happen to see navydude in another forum, please know that I will not repeat the same mistake. Goodbye all. navydude (Mark)

  • navydude

    Oh, let me explain 428, I know I wrote goodbyes, but I did not want to leave you with an unsolved mystery. That was actually my very good friend laura, who was actually a nurse in the army during the Gulf war. She happened upon this site that I left open, wrote her comment, and did not log herself off. Sorry for the mystery, Good luck all.

  • zxnavylaurasegxz

    Many of the last 60-odd comments have been written by someone with very serious mental health problems.

    They have been using different names to have an utterly schizophrenic conversation with themselves.

    Whoever it is needs real and urgent psychiatric help.

  • shadow

    I actually somewhat enjoyed reading the dialogue between navydude and zxTIGERxz in the above posts. Cyn, I know you were doing your best, but is obvious that the commentators are in league. Peter, appreciate the efforts, but I think the above recourse was a spontaneous thing that happened between two posters or is just a stupid dialogue between a single poster. Cyn may be able to tell this from IP addresses.

  • The REAL zxTIGERxz

    I take it no one read comment #326 oh well. By the way does anyone no if there is going to be another one of these lists?

  • Cyn

    i don’t routinely check IPs..just certain circumstances sometimes warrant further investigation. so no one need be paranoid about being tracked. ;)

    as for whatever the exchange was between whoever the varying personas on this list..think done is done and done moved on. or i hope so.

    as for more mysteries lists…i betcha there will be! :)

  • shadow

    Here is comment #326

    326. zxTIGERxz – October 15th, 2008 at 7:11 am

    “TO: I think therefore

    I like how you use facts to support what you say. HA!”

    Not sure what his means but I post it to show how ridiculous this is.

  • The REAL zxTIGERxz

    @shadow, sorry my mistake, comment 426 lol

  • geppu

    My in box is filling up with rubbish from this site.
    I thought it was meant to be a serious place to exchange ideas!
    I’m out.

  • talltale

    I have read the comments from all party’s. It is obviously whoever this zxtigrxz is, is using different screen names. Too bad. this seemed like a good site. There is always some juvinilistic character ruining sites like this. perhaps this site should stop sending e-mail responses, and the person(s)? will just go away because there would be no reminders.

  • Cyn

    tell us what you think… [commenting faq link] then text box to type in your comment immediately followed by
    box to click to notify me of followup comments via email
    don’t click the box..no email
    and i think..even on the email there is an option to discontinue
    so its up to the commentor to either not receive emails or discontinue.
    your choice …we’re not forcing it on ya.
    :)

  • The REAL zxTIGERxz

    @zxnavylaurasegxz, you’ll be sent help ASAP.
    @ everyone else, pls notice that I’ll soon be commenting using the nickname The REAL The REAL zxTIGERxz, since I’m soon going to claim that this comment is not from me.

  • Peter

    Tiger, you have a sense of humor ! (I knew you weren’t all bad)

  • The REAL zxTIGERxz

    Can some one check the ip address of the first comment I posted on this article which is the real me because # 439 is NOT mine! Asshole!

  • Courtney

    I have no idea if this is a new suggestion or not, so please bear with me…

    I recently watched a documentary on the Shroud of Turin, and while I have no opinion of its veracity, I like one of the ideas put forth to explain the Shroud itself.

    It is known that Joseph of Arimathea purchased a tomb near to the place where Jesus was crucified (but why would he do that if he lived so far away?). It is also thought that instead of giving water to Jesus while he was on the cross, he gave vinegar instead, or possibly a seditave. Regardless, Jesus “died”, and his body was given to Joseph. It is thought that Jesus was taken to this new, empty tomb while he was still alive. He was covered in honey and myrrh (I think) to prevent his wounds from being infected, and then he was covered in a cloth to stop insects from landing on him. Jesus was comatose for three days, and then he emerged and “returned from the dead”. It is then thought that he travelled west. This would match claims from various texts stating that Jesus travelled as far as India, maybe even further.

    I am not a religious person myself, but I think that if this is true, it qualifies as a happy ending :)

  • shadow

    The REAL zxTIGERxz, who said that you’re supposed to comment always from the same PC? Either you’re a fool or you think all others here are fools. At first I doubted, but now I’m sure you’re the identity thief here. You need not argue about this, since now I’m quite sure of it. Accept it if you’re not a eunuch or simply go to hell.

    P.S.: The REAL zxTIGERxz, if you’re really eunuch, please let me know about it just by not replying to my comment or denying to the fact that you’re the identity thief here and arguing on it, ok?

  • The REAL zxTIGERxz

    Not quite sure how to go about doing that shadow…

  • ibelieve

    Hi to Courtney,

    Was Jesus not given Vinegar to drink by a Roman. They used a mixture of Myrrh and Aloes and wraped Jesus in strips of linen with other spices. For info : http://www.tombofjesus.com (Read the Tomb of Jesus) If you are interested.

    A Friend from South Africa

  • shadow

    Thanks The REAL zxTIGERxz for confirming that you’re eunuch.

  • The REAL zxTIGERxz

    @shadow

    What?

  • chello

    No written evidence of Christ in his life time or for the next 200 years or so but his shroud would have survived?
    Is Elvis still alive???

  • Peter

    @chello
    Your first statement is totaly incorrect. Even if it were correct, there is no logical link between written testimony and the survival of a shroud.
    However, you are probably right about Elvis.

  • chello

    There is not the smallest fragment of trustworthy evidence to show that any of the Gospels were in existence, in their present form, earlier than a hundred years after the time at which Christ is supposed to have died. If you know of any i`m more then interested in reading it.
    The shroud is indeed nothing more then a piece of cltoth. The debate however is interesting , it shows the need for icons for the ones who need to prove their faith or for the ones to disprove it.
    Elvis is fine, just saw him at the supermarket, counter five to be exact .:-)

  • Peter

    Chello, are you saying that the gospel of John and the adventures of Paul are works of fiction, written after 130 AD ? (down from the 230 AD in your earlier message) Wow, definitely Nobelprize material.

  • chello

    Very cynical (st?)Peter. There is no direct written evidence from the time he was supposed to be alive. You know this as well as i do, otherwise all discussions would not take place as there would be undisputed proof of this mythical figures existence.The gospels are disputed and certainly not first hand. If you believe defend your believe with reasonable arguments not cynicism.

  • Peter

    Chello, I wasn’t being cynical, just trying to make a serious point in a humorous way. Failing, it seems.
    You have me confused. Are you saying that it is generally disputed that the gospel of St John was written by John the apostle on the isle of Padmos ? The John who died when about 100 years ? That the letters of St Paul are considered to be perhaps not written by Paul at all by serious scientists ? That would be news to me.
    I won’t go into the various contemporary sources that mention Jesus; you can find those on a couple of lists here. I believe it is in fact JFrater himself that mentions them.

    To be clear: I am not an orthodox christian, in fact not even more of a christian than a jew or buddhist. The idea however that there never was a Jesus and that all of it – his life, his works, the apostles and their works – is a fabrication, seems to me, quite apart from the written sources, to be too absurd an idea to merit discussion. Flying in the face of common sense, the words of great spiritual masters and historic research all at once, is too much flying for me.
    Feel free though.

  • chello

    The epistles of John, the Gospel of John, and Revelation appear so different in style and content that they could hardly have the same author. Some suggest that these writings of John come from the work of a group of scholars in Asia Minor who followed a “John” or they came from the work of church fathers who aimed to further the interests of the Church. Or they could have simply come from people also named John (a very common name). No one knows. Also note that nowhere in the body of the three epistles of “John” does it mention a John. In any case, the epistles of John say nothing about seeing an earthly Jesus. Not only do we not know who wrote these epistles, they can only serve as hearsay accounts.
    Paul’s biblical letters (epistles) serve as the oldest surviving Christian texts, written probably around 60 C.E. Most scholars have little reason to doubt that Paul wrote some of them himself. However, there occurs not a single instance in all of Paul’s writings that he ever meets or sees an earthly Jesus, nor does he give any reference to Jesus’ life on earth. Therefore, all accounts about a Jesus could only have come from other believers or his imagination. Hearsay.
    Faith is not about proof, ( try and prove your love for your children in a scientific law)but the basis of Christianity is based on fiction.

  • chello

    But it does not matter what is true and not true , what matters is what you do with your beliefs or non beliefs. We all need answers and solace. Tolerance, empathy sacrifice and forgiveness are foundations for humanity.. dogma`s are not.
    The gospels of christ represent the the former as in buddhism and pure islam. If only the Church would have enough faith ….
    Sorry i did not get your humor , Elvis has been on my case :-)

  • Peter

    Chello,
    It seems to me that you have sufficiently contradicted your initial statement that ‘No written evidence of Christ in his life time or for the next 200 years or’
    It is believed Jesus died when around 37, which would put his death around 31 AD. Again, apart from Josephus Flavius and the other two guys that mention Jesus in their writings, there is Paul who travels and writes about Jesus, as are others, such as Peter. If there never was any Jesus, how likely is it that decades later, with many contemporaries still alive, so much time and energy would be put into a scam that would easiy de recognised as such ? Quite apart from the question what on earth was in it for those guys that went on dangerous travels to spread an unwelcome message ?
    As for John: most scientist believe the text was written in the first century, and there is no reason why the essence of it could not be what it seems to be: an account written by someone who was there. As for the difference in language between the apocolyps and the rest: obviously the apocolyps is an unspired esoteric text, unintellible to those without knowledge of what we now call the astral body. Sort of like the dfference between you writing a report and a poem.

    Your initial point was that there was a gap of 200 years. My point is that there is too much written material too close to the time and altogehter too consistent for Jesus’ story to be a fabrication. Quite apart from the obvious spiritual power that emanates from these writings, plus the amazing and unlikely spread of christianity. Plus the hundreds of known and thousands of unknow people that claimed their amazing love and stunning powers came from their connection with Jesus.
    Of course, theoretically it’s possible that we are just an experiment in the lab of an unknown race in the 19th dimension. However, in science the golden rule is that the most simple and most likely explanation is usually the correct one. In this case that would be that Jesus lived and more or less did and said the things people later said he did and said. I’d say.

    Of course you’re right; what counts is what we do and how we live and love, based on our beliefs, convictions and assumptions. That why I go back to work :) Thanks for the interesting exchange.

  • chello

    Ditto,
    for the record i dont dispute the fact that Jesus of Nazareth could have lived around that time but i doubt the true value giving to this man by the church to supoport the christ cult. I know that the massiah cult has been around for much longer. People need answers to explain things they dont understand( who are we and why are we here).I just accept the fact i am and try to make the best of it. I guess going to work helps a bit altho i felt more alive catching a few waves. :-)

  • Peter

    We can certainly agree on the church not being the best source of information for those who want to understand Jesus’ teachings. Too many side interests; too much politics in its history.
    Though raised as a catholic, I didn’t really understand much of the bible until it was explained to me by Indian yogis.
    In the end, I believe the church and the christian cult have done more good than bad. (Yes, must have done a lot of good in my eyes) If illusions work, well, fine. Right ?
    Greetings

  • Richard S

    Shroud of Turin actually looks more like Hulk Hogan.

  • chello

    @ peter, thank you for an interesting conversation.
    Any other topics you have a strong opinion on ? ;-)
    Greetings

  • mulan

    hello did u know the movie mulan i love it…

  • mulan

    heheheheheh ! u knw its been a long time since i havent read suege’s comment hey wat’s up dude , still alive…? heheheh

  • mulan

    segue i mean not suege

  • mulan: I’ve simply said everything I have to say about this particular list.

  • itchynose

    i think what we are going to do here is lets just remove the “impossible”,whatever remains however improvable must be the “truth”=)do not be deceive!make your own definition of the word truth itself….nothing to prove!everyone is happy=)

  • simpilot

    “…the Church is currently not allowing any sections to be cut as it would be considered a sacrilege.” Thats the answer I was looking for. OR, the church wont allow anyone to actually perform modern testing on the shroud for fear of losing a major tool? Reminds me of the days of Galileo, no? With so many absurd, idiotic and silly claims made in the bible, the sun and stars orbiting earth for example (isnt god supposed to be all-knowing?), its quite fascinating that such garbage has held its reigns through so many years. Organized religion is most certainly the greatest control device for humans ever created/utilized by those in positions of power.

  • simpilot, the reason the Church can’t allow everyone who wants to test the shroud to take samples to test on is that very soon there would be no shroud left.
    Back in 1988-89 there was a huge multi national testing allowed. It included photography and carbon dating. I was lucky enough to have a small part in that testing.
    Maybe, almost certainly, one day the shroud will once again be offered to science to test. But it won’t be until science has moved sufficiently beyond where it was in 1988 and the results of the tests will be more reliable than they were then. The Church wants the answer. It wants the proper answer. It’s aware that wanting and getting are two different things, though, and getting often means waiting.

  • LS

    Just thought I’d put this link up about the shroud. http://www.physorg.com/news4652.html I could care less whether it’s real or not, but I thought some one here would find this interesting.

  • Vincent

    THE SHROUD IS GENUINE.IT WAS A PHOTOGRAPHIC TECHNIQUE THAT HAS LONG BEEN FORGOTTEN.

  • Pingback: Top 10 Unsolved Mysteries « The Sisyphus Files()

  • ibelieve

    LS. Thank you, interesting link.

  • ibelieve

    Vincent & LS feel free to read http://www.shroud.com
    Research has been done on the Shroud feel free to read the above link.

  • Billy Sargent

    Interesting. Thank you for the effort. I’ve always been fascinated with such mysteries & have come across several references to “Devil’s Triangle” areas in each of the Seven Seas. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to be able to learn the truth of things when we’re slipped? Certainly something to look forward to.

  • Billy Sargent

    I was browsing the comments for nuggets of information that tend to be roused by such discussion, but I had to desist because of the unfortunate emotionality & negativity that turned most commentary about the Shroud of Turin into harraingues. Atheist, Faithful, Agnostic… the only thing they seem to have in common is rabid self righteousness.

  • duhh!

    I am disappointed in this list. I expected much more exiting

  • nute

    after a bit of wordscramble,i think the zodiac killers name might be R.S.Steen from Washington. Dont ask how i got to it…

  • Peter

    @nute
    I called Robert. He denies. Don’t ask how I know him.

  • PC

    I have only one thing to say about the shroud. That is that a lot of “relics” were “found” during the crusades to upthe moral of the christians. In fact I beleive (not 100% percent sure) that often some saints had ike 5 heads becauce the church recognised them all as relics.

  • PC

    May I just apologize for earlier comment I now realies there is no point is speacking for my beiefs. We should all just except each otheres belifs and ways of lives. It would stop a hell of a lot of conflict.

  • nute

    @Peter

    .(R),E.I.R.E.T.S.I.(I.A.G)
    R S S T E E N (W S N)

    -washington/wisconsin anybody?
    it prob means nothing,or something

  • nute

    i think the reason why they couldn’t get the zodiac killers last letters unscrambled is because it might not be words and letters, but rather numbers, perhaps his area code and ID number…use it,dont use it…

  • dchuskerls

    the babushka lady was “the other shooter” that “camera” was a handgun

    also the bermuda triandle was just a natural gas bubble that rose up from the bottom of the ocean it ruined the planes engine and broke boats in half if they were in the wrong spot that is probably what happened to “the marine queen” a ship that transported sulfer.

  • ibelieve

    @dchuskerls

    where can i read more on your above comment please

  • eric

    so will there be a new list sometime soon.

  • Anam

    the shroud of turin is creepy…..

    btw wots crucifixion?

  • Anam

    some experts say the shroud of turin is medieval forgery by a clever artist :S

  • Jimmy Hoffa

    Did someone say my name?

  • Katie

    I only knew like one or two mysteries on this website, icluding Jack the Ripper. I apsolutly love unsolved mysteries! I love it!! :D

  • member

    comment 401 i think since he wasnt a good speller that maybe he also left out a couple letters in hpiti??? all i came up with was hipicrit????? i dont know.

  • member

    oh and 372 i think that guess is really good!! but most letters that you put wernt in his message.the picture that is in the letter voynich looks like the girls are playing ring around the roseies too.

  • Can you provide more information on this?

  • member

    what do you mean??

  • member

    if you mean the voynich i will try but it would really help if you sent a few picture of the book you say you have but if you cant i honestly understand!!im mostly intrested in the pictures for now because it could be a clue for what the writing says but like i said if you cant i totally understand

  • rocher

    Its compte!

  • I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.

  • Lori

    This stuff is really cool!

  • Kiwi

    The Shroud of Turin. Facts.

    1) The shroud was first displayed in 1357 by a woman who’s brother-in-law was put to death by members of the Inquisition 50 years previous (I’ll tell you who he was later… it makes all kind of sense!)

    2) The Church actively tried to stop the shroud being displayed, as it was not in its best interests to have an item of such ‘historical value’ in the possession of a private individual.

    3) The shroud itself in those days would have been a great treasure – it is well crafted and expensive.

    4) The image gradually grew stronger, and now is fading. It is possible – through a process very similar to early photography – for an organic material to change colour when another organic material is pressed up against it. The process of ‘developing’ the image without artificial help could take several years.

    5) Experiments have shown that the unusual position of the limbs and other body parts on the image could be the result of a tall man being curled slightly at the midriff… such as would happen to someone lying on a soft mattress (wrapped in a cotton cloth).

    6) Any Freemason will understand the significance of the white cloth (or shroud). Sorry, I can’t explain more than that. I can, however, tell you that freemasonry takes some of it’s practices from the ancient order of the Knights Templar.

    7) Back to point 1… the woman who first displayed the cloth. Well she was the sister-in-law of Jaques de Molay, head of the Knights Templar, who was arrested on Friday 13th October 1307 amd who was tortured and killed seven years later on March 19th.

    How ironic of those agents of the Inquisition, to torture the leader of the Knights Templar – the richest, most successful and powerful group of that time – in a manner imitating the Christ!

    Want to read more? You can go to http://www.templarhistory.com/shroud.html or read the book “The Second Messiah” by Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight.

  • ibelieve

    Kiwi,

    Thank you for your insight and the web page.

  • You have a very quality and fancy blog.It was a lovely reading.Thanks for the post.

  • Freyja

    Loki, why is your display name the name of a god from norse religion if you insist that you’re such a perfect christian?

  • L.k MYC

    RE: #290 Selina,
    “…ultimately you experience god spiritually… and emotionally. And some supernaturally…”
    Acquainted with Lucifer, at all? (#284)

    Peter- I have been quite entertained by your cynicism.

    Why has there not been a mention of the Devils Footprints? I vaguely recall a friend of mine giving a presentation on this particular phenomenon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil's_Footprints

  • L.k MYC

    Furthermore, I’d like to say the kangaroo explanation for the Devils Footprints is ridiculous. Evidently, kangaroos do not have cloven hooves…

    Has anyone seen the movie ‘Zodiac’? As with all films that depict actual events I’m sure they’ve missed critical ideas and have invented much but I find it quite interesting. To be honest, I was never aware of the Zodiac killings before seeing the movie. Does anybody have insight concerning the validity of the movie?

  • I haven’t seen the movie, and I won’t, but I’m very familiar with the actual Zodiac killings.

  • Peter

    The explanation of the Zodiac killings that has always made most sense to me is the one that there was no Zodiac killer. See wikipedia.
    I never even tried to dive into the numbers and letters, but my simple thingking was: here we are reading very sophisticated very intelligent and subtle reasoning and behaviour into a mind that obviously deranged. How does one acquire deep knowledge of astrology without being infuenced by the general mindset of the scholars in that particular area, which is clearly spiritual ? Very unlikely.
    So, a killer, a chaotic message, and other people that take advantage of this to mask other killings. They leaf through a cheap book on astrology, spend an evening putting together a non-code, suggest deep meaning where there is none and get away with their deeds because everybody is looking the wrong way.

  • 502. Peter: GeeWhiz, Peter! Thanks for clearing that up so neatly. After 40 years of Northern California Police Departments working on the case, the FBI being involved in the case, all the top minds in law enforcement being involved in the case for 40 years, you take *ONE* look at Wiki and solve the whole thing!
    Amazing.

  • Peter

    Seque,
    You’re not known for reading my posts correctly, but that’s OK. ‘Has always made most sense to me’ implies that I had the thought before wikipedia existed. Unless you hold me for younger than 10 or something.
    Nor is explaiing why something makes most sense in any way claiming to have solved something.
    On the other hand, the fact that so many professionals have been on the case for so long, as you point out, is, if anything, an indication that in fact there was no Zodiac killer.

    You who are so fond of rational thinking and prides himself on it, could have figured all this out, one would have thought.

  • Peter, if I misread you, I apologize. However, you are wrong in thinking that the professionals believe there is not a Zodiac killer. Certainly, John Douglas, of the FBI’s original Profiling department believes in him, he told me himself, and I have read his books on the subject.
    I have spoken to other law enforcement involved personally in the case, and they believe in the existence of the killer. Perhaps having known professionals involved has colored my view, but I have studied the evidence, and it points to the actual existence of a single killer.
    Oh, and just FYI, I’m a female.

  • L.k MYC

    segue,
    It seems it’s your mission to disprove any idea that one person may hold, even though you’re not inclined to offer evidence on the contrary other than that you have “studied the evidence” or that you know people who hold different opinions. I’m not sure I should trust the deduction of someone who requires opiates to make their life livable. Thank you, your intellect has been stimulating.

  • lo

    506. L.k MYC-

    let me get this straight, you admit that all your knowledge of the zodiac killings comes from a recent hollywood movie, and then segue offers up her knowledge which comes from research, living/working in the area and personally being acquainted with people who’ve professionally investigated it and you take it personally that she knows more about the topic than you?

    and then you take a swipe at her for have a chronic health condition?

    stay classy, L.k MYC.

  • lo, I can see I don’t have to be bothered answering zippy, there. Thanks. :-D
    Oh, and any jerk low enough to even bring my health into the mix is too stupid to go outside without a keeper.

  • L.k MYC

    My question was hardly addressed in the information segue offered. But I am sorry. What I said was below the belt.

    Segue, might I ask if you do know anything at all about the accuracy of the movie? I know you have no intention of seeing it, but perhaps from second-hand reports? Once again, I apologize.

  • Peter

    Segue,
    You’re female. I’m afraid that can’t be helped.
    Just kidding.
    You misread me yet again. ‘.. the fact that so many professionals have been on the case for so long is, if anything, an indication that in fact there was no Zodiac killer.’ That’s not a claim that professionals say this.

    BTW, I saw that the theory of the Zodiac being a means to confuse the police and mask drug related killings, is in the Dutch wikipedia but not in the English version. Not sure what that implies.

    I don’t have anything more to say on the subject. Gues we’ll never know.

  • lo

    peter-

    it’s pretty fascinating that the dutch wiki has a different story than the english wiki on the “zodiac killer.” and no, i can’t read them both myself, and i respect HIGHLY your multilingualism.

    that said, don’t you think the dutch wiki might be farther removed from the actual events (unless a dutch editor of it was living in L.A. at the time…)?

    and the jab at women’s intellect doesn’t make you look very astute, even though you said it was just a joke.

  • Peter

    Lo,
    I’m all for loyalty, but aren’t you overdoing it a bit ?
    How astude is it to make an issue out of my astudeness because of a mild joke ?

    It would surprise me if Dutch wikiedia writers would think to themselves ‘You know what ? Let’s put in that there is a theory that the the Zodiac killer was a fabrication meant to cover up drug related crimes’ if there wasn’t one.

    All Dutch people read Dutch and most read English. As it happens I read German, French, Italian, Swedish and Spanish too. Just a byproduct of travelling and not that unusual in Europe.

  • 509. L.k MYC: I’m sorry, I was unaware you had asked a question. I was responding to Peter’s question/comment.
    Now that I have your question I’ll answer it.
    I have not seen the movie, and have no plans to. It’s more of a geographical problem than one of interest. The closest movie theater showing first-run movies is 35 miles away.
    As I said above, having known professionals directly involved in the case, and adding my own study into the case, my thought is that there was one, extremely intelligent psychopath behind all of the killings, and all of the killings were chillingly random (to us, although to him they made perfect sense, which he desperately tried to share, but was unable).
    He wrote and wrote to the police and the newspapers. It was in cipher.
    Why?
    Was that because he was trying to hide who he was, or because that was how it came out of his head when he tried to communicate in writing?
    I remember those times. It isn’t just history for me, it isn’t just a movie or a wiki entry.
    Even so, I wouldn’t trust, or even use, my own memories as a basis for accurate reporting of fact. That’s why the words of FBI agents, police agents, other involved professionals carry the weight they do. They take and keep notes!
    Okay. I’ve said all I have to say on this subject.

  • Olstar18

    The Shroud of turin was fake it was tested and found to have been painted using paints that were used in the 600s and dated at the same time period. Some people insist that it is real just like some people insist that the light reflecting off the water left by the sprinkler system is really the image of the virgin mary. The bermuda triangle is no more dangerous than any other part of the ocean and like they said earlier a number of the ‘missing’ bodies were actually found. The same goes for every other triangle out there, its just an urban legend.

  • Mark

    514. Olstar18 : Lol, do you know anything on the subject of the Shroud. It hasn’t been tested conclusively like you seem to believe, look it up a bit more – it’s a very interesting topic.

  • Olstar18: no one has proven that there is paint pigment on the shroud. Furthermore, an illustration of the shroud from nearly 100 years prior to what the carbon-dating tests state is its age, shows a number of burn holes that exist on the shroud as we know it as well as the herringbone weave. This strongly suggests (almost beyond a doubt) that the shroud existed and was seen prior to the date that the carbon-dating suggests it was created.

  • 514. Olstar18: I have known and worked with some who had been in on the testing of the Shroud, to say that the experience changed them is to understate the facts.
    I wasn’t there to experience it myself, but someone I know, a photographer and a Jew, was so effected by the Shroud that he has devoted his life since the experiments to furthering the knowledge about the Shroud, and to spreading the word about it. He absolutely believes in it’s validity, and keeps a website and newsletter to keep others informed on updates, etc.
    I have seen the original transparencies and negatives he took. They are untampered with and the Shroud itself is free of brushstrokes.
    Certainly, there are patches in the cloth where it has been burned. These patches would carbon date to a much younger date than the middle of the Shroud.
    There are many questions left unanswered.
    Do I believe?
    It’s not my place to believe or not believe, or rather, it’s not my place to say. I realize I actually influence people on this list, and what I put forth may turn some people one way or the other.
    Simply giving facts is easier.

  • Spange

    Actually the 1988 carbon testing only dated it to 13/14th century, give or take errors. As it was the only carbon test that has been conducted so far I’m not sure where the 600s idea came from.

    Some suggest that the actual sample used (for C14 testing) did not come from the main, original part of the cloth. Guy called Raymond Rogers did a study of it which makes fairly compelling reading. He also postulated that a method of dating relating to the breakdown of certain compounds within the linen itself over time could be used. This supports his theory that the Shroud is older than the results of the 1988 radiocarbon analysis show.

    Actually quite a lot of evidence runs counter to the accepted dating, both scientific and historical. Whilst I certainly don’t buy into the conspiracy theories that abound I do wonder why that study of one sample (one sample meaning that the various smaller samples tested came from an original small piece taken from one area) is accepted and all other evidence rejected. In the face of questions being asked about the reliability of the sample provided for that test, surely further testing of a new sample is warranted, even if it further proves the date to be later.

  • Very nice doll and toy information. I hope to order some more Polly Pocket dolls soon.

  • spange: thank is a very good point – everyone relies on the carbon dating (which was taken from a repair of the shroud, not the original) but not all of the other evidence. The illustration I describe in comment 516 and the descriptions of the Shroud from the 6th century and earlier in poetry and religious writings strongly suggest that it predates the carbon-dated period.

  • Very nice information. Thanks for this.

  • Spange

    jfrater: I once saw a documentary (of which I have never been able to find evidence since, if a pal of mine hadn’t watched it independently of me I’d believe it never existed) where another interesting point was made. A French knight’s diary from some time prior to the dates provided by C14 describes a relic held in a Hungarian church. Some textile scientists analyzed the cloth and the folds in it and they matched up with the folding believed to be used in this relic which was lifted into the air once a week to be on display to the congregation. Although the knight never names the relic, it seems to be very similar and it passed out of history, I think presumed stolen.

    Honestly, being a staunch non-believer in anything very much I wanted very much to dismiss the Shroud. As some kind of miraculous cloth I suppose I still do, but in terms of it’s history and origins I think we still haven’t gotten to the bottom of the story. Regardless of it’s significance to religious people it’s a fascinating artefact.

  • Can you provide more information on this?

  • Hey ! thanks for the material, a salute from Chile, iam adding your blog to feedreader !

  • Abha

    the mystery about the bermuda triangle is really interesting.But I wonder why it is still unsolved?…..Because today we have the most developed science…!

  • 525. Abha: There is no mystery about the Bermuda triangle. Never has been, never will be. It’s all just been a lot of hoaxing and yellow journalism. Scary stories to keep the children up at night.

  • Will certainly be bookmarking this, i will certainly be reading more of your post,..when i get some time

  • harpoon

    I was in the U.S. Navy for over 20 years(East Coast)and traversed the “Bermuda Triangle” COUNTLESS times, and the only “Strange” thing that I had ever witnessed as a Quartermaster was a floating Blow Up “sex doll”.

  • I have read a few of your posts and they are all interesting and informative…keep up the good work.

  • Great stuff man… I loved that part of the blog. Much better than your earlier posts.

  • kat

    The shroud is a scorch mark on a linen wrap that is the shape of a man who has many wounds. He had long, curly hair. His body was not washed before he was wrapped and there are blood stains. I have seen a life-size photo of this and cried when I saw a tiny drop of blood gathered in a curl on his back. The detail is astounding. I don’t know what this thing is. I am not a Christian, but how could this thing have been made? Even today we have not got the technology to reproduce this thing. A true mystery.

  • rain

    I think the greatest mystery in this list is the Bermuda Triangle and The Babushka Lady. In my opinion I think everything disappears in the Bermuda Triangle because of gravitational pull. . . That’s what I heard. . . Anyway nice list. I think I’m a fan of this website already.

  • Cyclothymic

    I love these mystery lists.

    There are a couple of minor errors here though:

    a) The Mary Celeste was found 600 miles west of Portugal, not in the ‘Strait of Gibraltar’

    b) The Black Dahlia was found in a vacant lot, not a parking lot. The crime scene photos confirm this as she is surounded by grass

    Only minor things though – more lists please

  • Just grabbed the feed… thanks for posting this.

  • whatmelon

    i am atheist. however wether the shroud of turin is real or not has nothing to do with belief in jesus being a god. all of jfraters statements have been proven correct and its even in the mainstream news at the moment and the man who carbon dated the shroud has admitted that it may be real. the templars guarded it for centuries and made no money from it but instead wanted to preserve it. why would they do this with a crap fake they created. WHO CARES ABOUT AN OLD CLOTH.

  • Trix

    The Babushka lady is definitely the creepiest one of the lot. Of all the others I just thought, wow what a mystery but with that one I genuinely want to know the answers!!

  • Carlos

    Babushka Woman: She held in front of her face something which is believed to be a camera. Why not binoculars? She would be posing in the same manner if she was simply watching the president with a pair of small binoculars or opera glasses. In which case, she had no film to present to the police.

  • Carlos

    Can anyone please answer a question about Babushka Woman: was she holding the object steadily in front of her eyes, or was she taking it away from her eyes every few seconds, appearing to adjust it or operate some mechanism? If she was holding it steadily in front of her eyes, I’d bet the mint it’s a pair of binoculars. If she took it away from her eyes every few seconds, she was probably advancing the film of a camera.

  • Carlos

    And no, I don’t think an ordinary-looking lady in 1963 had an automatic-feed click-click-click type camera small enough to be hidden by her head.

  • Great blog. Can’t wait to see what you come up with next!

  • What I particularly love about Unsolved Mysteries is the undying interest in them. They take matters of what would ordinarily be a matter of common or slight interest, and blow it out of all proportion until it becomes a tabloid headline on a yearly rotation.
    Then there are the other mysteries, the mysteries that would be of uncommon interest no matter what, due to their historical and/or religious significance. I believe I like this group best. There is always the tiniest chance of discovering a major answer to the universe, to the history of the world. Maybe that is why my reading habits are what they are…maybe I want my knowledge to be in the right place at the right time.
    I don’t know.
    I do know that LV has always offered me the opportunity to be there.

  • It was great to go through the stuff posted on your blog. Look forward to more useful posts in future.

  • I Love your blog on google and have read many of your posts. Excellent. Keep up the good work!!!

  • I really liked your article. Keep up the good work.

  • sallysweet

    I agree – a simple Googling of the Black Dahlia will show the crime scene photos (NSFW and not for the faint of heart) and they clearly are in a field. Most websites will also cite the circumstances of how she was found. I believe a woman was walking down a sidewalk (maybe with a child in a stroller) and she thought it was a manequin. It’s all there if you Google, but I can’t right now as I’m supposed to be working :)

  • olstar18

    If you want to say its a matter of faith go right ahead I can not touch such a belief, but to take the arguments of those who blindly follow faith as proof that the testing were inconclusive that is downright idiocy. Such thinking belongs in the ranks of the flat earth society. Now people be very careful about believing what you read in lists like this. A lot of what is written is based upon superstition hoaxes (not necessarily the writers of the lists) and urban legends. A good example would be the bermuda triangle. If that patch of water is so dangerous why has there not been a single cruise ship to disapear. The real reason there is such a history of shipwrecks is quite simple. Its the caribean you have islands everywhere and it is cheaper to ship goods and people by boat than it is to send it by plane plus you dont need an airfield therefore you have more boats in a small area and more boats means more potential accidents. The character Sherlock Holmes said in one of the stories that after ruling out all other options whatever is left however improbable is the truth but like he said after ALL other options. What is more likely, that this is the shroud that christ was wrapped in. Then what would have left that image. He wasn’t sweating he was dead (temporarily) and why did it show up as paint that was used hundreds of years after the fact when it was tested. And then you have the carbon dating. Note it wasn’t just carbon dating it was also a type of paint that wasn’t used till much later.

  • Good post! Found it doing a quick blog search. Subscribed! Mark

  • Reyairia

    Update to the Zodiac Killer entry:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30492154?Gt1=43001

  • I really liked your blog! Thank you, I would come back to read some more

  • jenix

    the article regading the bermuda triangle seems to be very intresting and iam puzzled about what happens there

  • olstar18

    Why do I even bother. No matter what I or anyone else says these morons aint going to read it their just going to spout the same bs that has been refuted repeatedly and never read anything that was said before them.

  • 554. olstar18 , Why do I even bother…
    ****
    olstar, keep in mind that the median IQ is 100. That means that there are as many people with IQ’s below 100 as there are with one’s above 100. Those with IQ’s considerably below 100 tend to be intellectually lazy, and do the least mental work possible (such as reading the posts above their own post, so as to gain some possible knowledge which might bear on their post).
    I used to go mad trying to teach the masses how to read the posts above their own before posting, but to no avail. I’ve given up after a year or more of trying.
    Good luck.

  • I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader.

  • Good post! Found it doing a quick blog search about foreclosure info. Subscribed! Mark

  • Peter

    Matt,
    check out
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-larry-dossey/premonitions-and-spiritua_b_193830.html

    You mentioned before that I come up with fringe scientists as Sheldrake and Capra. Well, Capra is a writer and I’d be surprised if I called him a scientist. Sheldrake dares to tread where few scientist will go, but there is nothing unscientific or fringelike about his methods and tests.
    You chose to ignore that I also mentioned Nobel laureates as Einstein, Bohm and Bose. I can ad Planck to that, the father of quantum physics. Quote: ‘consciousness is fundamental; matter is derivative.’ Exactly my point in all my posts, in line with mankind’s experience and refuted by no proof whatsoever ever.

    Regarding energy: are you seriously claiming that you understand better how aucpuncture works than the thousands of acupuncturists, among whom many first class doctors, who use it ? Why isn’t there a community of acupuncturists then that claims energy has nothing to so with it ? I read a discussion about an article in the Lancet, in which (the discusion) it was mentioned that the existence of the meridians has in fact been proven with a nuclear trace method (or something; I don’t know the exact term). I have given you several studies about the reality of chakras.
    Your argument is that this energy hasn’t been found. Well, how long ago is it that we thought that the atom was the smallest particle ? Then there was the proton and the electron; now there are around 200 particles found, some of which exist 0,0000000000001 seconds and then disappear into nothigness, or…. energy. We know now that what once seemd a thing, like ‘the electron’, turns out to be both a particle and a wave. To claim then that something doesn’t exist because ‘it hasn’t been found’ doesn’t make much sense. Both because it’s simply not true in some cases and because it goes against the trend of science in general.
    Your statement ‘I prefer a material explanation’ I understand. And I agree that we should first look for the most obvious explanation in every situation. But if you look at it in a historical context, you may realise that this preference is old. It comes from the time when science was suffocated by religion. That time is past. Not for everybody, but clearly for many cutting edge scientists. And for the millions of intelligent nice sincere people for whom awareness of energy, or whatever you want to call it, is a fact of life, as real and as illusery as your arm.

    Contrary to Segue, whose ignorance-born arrogance disqualifies her for a serious discussion, you seem a nice guy and interested in truth. Check out these links. You may not understand what these people are talking about, or maybe do understand and doubt or disagree, but you will recognize their intelligence and sincerity. I hope it makes you curious enough to want to experience as well as think about these things. I promise that if you make a sincere effort, you won’t regret it.
    http://www.petervankan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=89&Itemid=68
    For a deeper understanding of what religion is (to some people now anyway, and no doubt it will be the accepted way of looking at religion in the not too distant future)
    http://www.ananda.org/inspiration/books/path/33.html

    Being a bit tired of the kind of posts we’ve seen lately, I don’t feel like continuing our discussion here. But if you’d like to contimue by email or skype, send me a message through my site.
    I wish you all the best.
    Peter

  • Peter

    Segue
    ‘olstar, keep in mind that the median IQ is 100. That means that there are as many people with IQ’s below 100 as there are with one’s above 100.’

    Totally wrong. You might want to read a book about statistics. Or use your IQ.

    ‘Those with IQ’s considerably below 100 tend to be intellectually lazy,’

    ???????????????? And negroes are physically lazy, I guess ?

    Hey, don’t be so hard to the masses that can’t reach your lofty heights.

  • Tucker

    What about Easter Island

  • crazysquid

    Who in the hell is this SEGUE doof, and why in the hell is anyone responding to his idiotic crap. All he wants to do is argue with people

  • Randall

    Peter:

    For someone who seems to pride himself on reason and understanding, you’re needlessly jumping on Segue like an indignant child. In point of fact, my guess is that you and she would agree on much of the material being discussed here (at least insofar as I can follow the various meanderings in this thread) but you hardly do yourself service by backhandedly attacking her when clearly you know nothing of her.

    She’s absolutely correct when she ways that people with IQs below 100 “tend to be intellectualy lazy” (what would YOUR take on this be, praytell?) and there was nothing “racist” or any other form of prejudice implied in her statement–nor should it be taken as such. Making the clumsy and moronic crack about “negroes” being “physically lazy,” then, was just a cheap shot on your part that tried–and failed–to make her look bad. Sounds to me that you’re a bit better than that. Step back and slow down, and let the blood rise back to your brain before commenting again.

    Segue is an intelligent, decent, and very honest-seeming woman with a good deal of integrity. You, on the other hand, don’t seem a bad sort, but…. a bit of a show-off. Drop the phony indignation–particularly when you’re trying to make a “spiritual” point–and you might come off as more gracious, intelligent, and reasonable yourself.

  • olstar18

    Seems more like all you want to do is argue with people. All he did was post a reminder that half the people in the world are below average when I expressed frustration that so many simply posted their belief in what this article says without actually thinking for themselves or doing their own research on the matter. Good example is that guy that claims that when the shloud of turin was tested to find if it was authentic or not that the results were inconclusive despite the fact that it was not only painted on but done with a paint from a couple hundred years after the death and resurrection and carbon dated to be from around that time period. There is also simple facts like no matter how dirty you are if you use a cloth to wipe the grime off of your face there will not be a copy of your face on that cloth. So squid from where I’m looking its more likely that you are merely out to argue with people.

  • olstar18

    Oh and for the record intellectual lazyness is not connected with iq. My brother and I both have iqs around 130 but he cant stand having to think about anything that isn’t related to hunting racing or engines of some kind.

  • 562. Randall: Thank you. Peter has a problem with me because I don’t believe in his “out of body experiences”, or his “precognitions” or his ” telekinesis” or on and on and on…. Just give a read to the links he posted in his 558. Peter. The first one tells about a dream which foretells the future, to the minute!

    564. olstar18: LOL! Yes, I understand. Some people do get sidetracked into one interest and one interest only. I’ve seen it happen, and I’ve seen it result in amazing innovations and inventions which, in turn, result in amazing amounts of money.
    Just because an intelligent mind has one over-riding passion doesn’t mean they are intellectually lazy, just that they are directing all of their intellect into one direction. It might be a bit eccentric, but it’s not lazy.

  • Manny

    I was watching last week about the life of Sharlene. She died with cancer and she was able to cure some patients just by visiting her tomb. I wanted to bring my mother-in-law or maybe visit Sharlene’s tomb, can you tell me what city or state her tomb located so that we can visit her. Thank you very much.

  • olstar18

    Segue I was not talking about him having an overiding passion. He can’t stand anything that makes him actually think hard especially if it is an abstract concept.

  • Randall

    Segue:

    Ah. I understand now. I read through some of it. Another crank.

    Ah well. I’d take a million Peters any day over the one “Wayne” we have had to deal with over in the “Top 10 Evil Men” thread. Shudder.

  • 567. olstar18: Ah! I misunderstood, I see. Well, I’m sorry for your brother, but you seem quite interested in a range of subjects, so good on you!
    ****
    ****
    568. Randall: I have dealt with Peter on numerous lists, and he is exactly as rude and condescending as he was here, and all because I find his beliefs unbelievable. In fact, I truly thought he was joking at first!
    Still, you have a point about “Wayne”, and one other, of the deep, dark past, whose initials I will not even mention.

  • Peter

    Randall,
    There was no fake indignation in play in my reaction. I found and stil find segue’s remark offensive. Perhaps the fact that I’ve worked a lot with lower IQ’d people played a role here. My take, and as far as I know the take of any dictionary too, is that IQ refers to ability and not to a willingness to think or lack thereof. And if anything, my common sense tells me that people that are below the median have to mentally work harder to keep up with the rest of society.

    Segue, you keep telling other people that I have a problem with you because you don’t believe in telekinesis etc. You know that that is not true, and so does anybody that has read my post here and on the corpses forum, so why do you keep saying it ?
    I don’t have a problem with Matt, who thinks like you, and that is because he doesn’t laugh at people that believe in a spiritual aspect of life and doesn’t put himself above them. He answers questions and doesn’t try to win an argument by picking one issue and ignoring the bigger picture.
    I believe I have been nowhere near as rude and condescending as you have been to others, but you’re right, that’s no excuse. I’ll be a good boy and won’t do it again.

    To all: the reason for reaction at all is my worry that people might mistakenly think that science tells us to ignore the spiritual aspect of life, thus depriving themselves of unimaginable beauty and overwhelming love.

    I rest my guitar case.

  • Peter, I could easily explain to you the difference between the “spiritual” and the snake-oil salesmen who advocate bending spoons via mental command, out-of-body-experiences, and curing cancer by following “special diets” and the laying on of hands.
    I could explain the difference, but I won’t. Everyone else reading this knows the difference.
    Poor you.

  • Mom424

    Segue, Randall – Sorry but I agree with Peter on this point. Low IQ does not mean intellectually lazy – you’re wrong. I’ve worked with many of the less gifted as a tutor and the mentally handicapped as well. They were not lazy; if you had ever seen someone try for days to learn a concept and still have it just beyond their reach, witnessed their frustration; you mightn’t be so flip with the broad condemnation.

  • crazysquid

    olstar18,randell You two have obviously sided with the blow-hard segue. The self proclaimed “Cliff Claven” of unsolved mysteries. The doof who has an uneducated oppinion about everything, and attacking those who oppose his mindless drivel. Not to mention more screen names than can be counted on every post on all the sites on listverse. Especially the ones that he posts (Tags) first, like it is the achievment of his doofus life. So go ahead and have your doofus threesome and live doofully ever-after. Doofuses.

  • 572. Mom424, You’re right, I worded that badly. I never meant that a low IQ equals intellectual laziness, but I certainly made it sound as if I did. I apologize for my inept explanation.

  • crazysquid: I assure you that segue posts under one username only – I have access to all the comments and that includes IPs and email addresses so I can verify that for certain.

  • crazysquid, I haven’t the time or the desire to sit around all day doing nothing but posting to LV (as much as I love it!). I have one one username, and one username only.
    As to your prattle about my “uneducated” opinion; I have 1 B.A., 1 B.F.A. and an M.F.A. I have also done continuing education for many years.

  • olstar18

    Squid I side with no one, I think for myself. I do not listen to stories of the supernatural and unexplained without trying to figure out some alternate explanation. I have heard a lot of ridiculous claims connecting stone henge to ufo’s and that with the technology back then they could not have moved those rocks when it is a simple matter of using center of gravity to lift it up and then place it in a hole. Now seriously go back look at these stories of the supernatural and think long ad hard about other possibilities. See a guy bending spoons with his mind well what about a special made spoon with a section made of metals that expand differing amounts when warmed. Its the same thing they use in a number of thermostats.

  • Peter

    Seque,
    see, that is your tactic. you put me in the spoonbending category, and Olstar buys it.
    You would have a very hard time explaining the difference between ‘the spiritual’ and the things I have discussed with Matt. The essence of which is the question: are we limited to time and space or are we connected is some more subtle way ? I have given scientific facts and mentioned the support if the main figures of physics for the latter notion.
    Your insistence on putting everybody and everything in the hahaha category, betrays your bias.

  • Mom424

    Segue: No problem.

  • olstar18

    Peter you know what your problem is. When someone uses an example you think they are saying you are in that group. Use your head for something other than a convenient hat stand once in a while. So how do you define spiritual. By the way your the one that brought up telekinesis not segue.

  • Peter

    Olstar,
    ‘Squid I side with no one, I think for myself.’

    O yeah ? Let’s see.
    Wrong 1
    ‘Peter, I could easily explain to you the difference between the “spiritual” and the snake-oil salesmen who advocate bending spoons via mental command, out-of-body-experiences, and curing cancer by following “special diets” and the laying on of hands.
    I could explain the difference, but I won’t. Everyone else reading this knows the difference.
    Poor you.’
    That’s not putting into a category?
    Wrong 2
    I don’t do hat stands. Nor head stands, which is what you meant, I guess. The benefits of it have been proven,BTW.
    Wrong 3
    No, it was Segue that brought up telekinesis. ‘Randall: Thank you. Peter has a problem with me because I don’t believe in his “out of body experiences”, or his “precognitions” or his ” telekinesis”’

    You’re eloquent Olstar, but you don’t seem to read very well.

    FYI. The start was: Seque stated that out of body experiences belonged to the hahaha category and I pointed out there is in fact serious research done into it.
    I am not interested in spoonbending and have not talked about telekinesis at all. My posts are serious and have notrhhing to do with superstition. I can’t help it if people lack the knowledge, experience and/or understanding to see the difference between true experiences/phenomena and illusions/trickery, and I object to being the victim of it.

    As for a definition of spiritual: why don’t you ask Seque who stated she could easily give it. I can’t. I can say though that any definiton that limits life to the bounderies of matter fails to make a definite disctinction between spirituality and, let’s say, nihilism. If you see what I mean.

    BTW. Segue’s reaction after I objected to her stating that lower than average IQ’d people are intellectually lazy:
    ‘Randall: I have dealt with Peter on numerous lists, and he is exactly as rude and condescending as he was here, and all because I find his beliefs unbelievable.’

    And after MOm objected: 572. ‘Mom424, You’re right, I worded that badly.’

    Happy Christmas.

  • crazysquid

    Peter, I too find that the segue is no more than an arguative doof with nothing but time and a desire to be no more than an introvert with delusions of making friends with whomever sides with him/her. Read some of the other forums on listverse and see that he/she will argue with anyone. Trying to argue with segue is like trying to do an urban renewal of New York City from the twelfth floor up. It makes no sense, and is completely useless.

    As for segue and his/her B.A.’s, I guess that just shows that he/she is educated beyond his/her intelligence. I have a masters in “Life”, which is far superior to any B.A.’s.

  • Randall

    Peter:

    Please do me a favor and succinctly outline what your beliefs are, then (those that are germaine to this discussion, of course–I’m not asking you for a lengthy CV on all your philosophies–political, economic, etc., or what your favorite colors are). I’m just curious to know what all this is actually about then.

  • Randall

    crazysquid:

    DO shut up. Seriously. You contribute nothing here except repeated ad hominem attacks on segue, while offering up not the slightest cogent reasoning as to why you have it in for her so badly.

    In fact, it’s hard to say how your ire could be so raised against a mainstay figure on this site whom you clearly haven’t read enough of to know even the simplest things about her identity–such as gender, education, etc. It would be no surprise if a total newbie didn’t know these things—no one could expect that. But YOU are implying that you know segue well enough to have developed an obvious, strong dislike for “him/her” (she’s a she) which would further imply that you would have read enough of her posts to know more about her than you clearly do. Weird and puzzling conundrum there. The only possible conclusion is that you have some very personal axe to grind from a single previous encounter with her, which negates your presence here on this thread griping back and forth as you are, since it clearly arises from bias.

    If that’s NOT the case, then offer up some concise and clear correction—or otherwise, shut the f*ck up and get out of here… you’re just wasting space.

    At any rate, in point of fact, I’ve dealt with segue for a very long time on this site—she’s a highly intelligent and usually fair-minded individual. We don’t always agree, but I know she’s not the detestable horror YOU’RE painting her out to be.

    Further… sorry, but no–a “masters in ‘life'” is NOT “far superior” to segue’s education–rather, all you’ve done by that claim (coupled with your behavior here) is make clear that you’re an uneducated lout who is intimidated by people smarter than you and are thus hostile to them.

    You want to prove me wrong, then contribute something germaine, coherent and thoughtful to the discussion. Otherwise, as I said, do us a favor and shut up.

  • olstar18

    Peter a hat stand is something you store your hats on when you are not wearing them. You know what there is some serious research done on it and I have read accounts on both sides of the argument and know a bit about it. Some native american tribes used to use the smoke of various herbs to induce out of body experiences. The exact mixture of herbs tended to vary between tribes but there was one that was almost always used, can’t remember the name and don’t have the time to look it up due to work, is a hallucinogen. There are also other causes such as dreams and head trauma but still no connection to soul leaving the body or anything like that.

  • Peter

    585
    Olstar,

    You say you ‘know a bit about it.’ Yet you assume that the research I referred to was into native americans smoking pot, and you give your conclusion about the soul leaving the body. Well, er….

    Also I see you don’t react to 581.

    Given the lack of clarity and quality, I don’t see much point in having a discussion about ‘it’.

  • Peter

    Randall,
    My beliefs don’t mean much. People can and do believe anything.
    My take on ‘what this is all about’ is this:
    Once religion ruled and science was supressed. Then science broke free and showed many convictions and ideas about the world to be false. For some time materialism, including the notion that consciousness is but a function of the material brain, reigned. As a consequence, to a large but shrinking part of the population in western societies, religion = belief = unscientific = unproven nonsense. Any time they are confronted with either religious orthodox and sectarian believers or charlatans posing as mediums, they see their conviction underscored. It’s understandable.
    In the meantime, in part thanks to the input of eastern spirituality into western culture, to many people religion/spirituality has come to be about not believing but experiencing universal truths. Some of the phenomena mentioned in these lists are not strange to them. They know them from experience and to some extend understand them. Also, although not all who think of themselves as scientist have digested it, science is no longer supporting the idea that ‘everything is matter’.

    This is what these discussions are about.

    I know that charlatans exist. The idea however that most or all of the people that say they have access to information – in ways that do not fit in a material worldview – are naive, lie or trick, is absurd and flies in the face of reality. People that continue to put everyone open to a larger reality into the spoonbending category, in my opinion lack the knowledge, experience and understanding to meaningfully discuss which phenomena can be explained within a materialistic contect and which ones point to human being connected on a subtle level.

    Sometimes, when people are genuinely interested, it can be fun and also for me interesting to have a discussion. Check out the back and forth between Matt and me at https://listverse.com/religion/top-10-incorrupt-corpses/
    And sometimes it’s not so interesting.

    Oh yes. I speak 7 languages, play 10 instruments, have 4 CD’s out, 2 books and hundreds of articles published, founded two foundations still going strong, one offering yoga for handicapped people and one creating ecological/spiritual communities, currently editor in chief of a magazine inbetween mainstream and eco/spiritual, friend of an Arabian princess, have given seminars on a variety of subjects for 20 years in many countries, organise tours for a well known American singer/songwriter, am in charge of the workshop section of one of the largest popfestivals in Europe.

    All these things however, like MBA’s and what not, don’t mean anything here. The only thing that does have relevance is that I meditated over 10.000 hours and personally know some people that in a different place and time would be called saints. Once you’ve met people that know, it’s easy to tell who doesn’t.

    My aim in posting here is to encourage openminded sceptics to start experiencing, rather than stick with only reading and thinking.

  • olstar18

    Sheesh its like talking to my family about my beliefs. They take one part of it that they don’t agree with to say the entire thing is wrong usually having to take it out of context to do so. I said nothing about pot which is definetely not a hallucinogen. A hallucinogen is a chemical that makes you see smell or feel things that are not there. Now calm down read what is written in its entirety and you might learn a few things. Now what eastern spiritualism could you mean. Fang Shui fraud, acupuncture mind over matter, ying and yang I believe in to the extent that balance is necessary for a happy life. Now so far you have told us part of the history of the science/spirituality debate now how about defining it as more than eastern spirituality.

  • Peter

    Olstar,
    Hey, I’m from Holland; I know what pot is.
    I can’t take relating out of body experiences to smoking indians and then drawing conclusions seriously, so I used a conveniently short word. It has nothing to do with taking out of context. Strange to get accused of doing that after showing you dead wrong.

    And as for what you call ‘eastern spiritualism’, I’m not even going to bother. Sorry.

  • 583. Randall: Peter has been asked on several lists to put his beliefs down in simple terms, but he has always declined to do so. He will will decline to do so here, as well.
    Do you have trouble trusting Peter’s relationship with the truth? I do, after reading his supposed accomplishments in post #587.

    Olstar, the American Indians used to use both Peyote (eaten) and Mescal (drunk) to bring on hallucinatory states, both of which were used in religious observances.

  • Peter

    Seque,
    your first oparagraph is a lie.
    your prediction is baseless.
    you apparently can’t believe that my accomplishments, as you call them, are true. I’ll take it as a compliment.

  • Every thing I said is true. If not, why didn’t you do as Randall ask and explain your beliefs?
    As to your so called accomplishments; Peter, there is a major difference between “can’t” believe and “don’t” believe. I don’t believe you.
    As usual, you have worn out your welcome in my life.
    Good-bye.

  • olstar18

    Peter so far you have told us part of the history of the religon,science,spirituality debate but have not actually defined spirituality. For many it involves garbage like ghosts near death experiences clairvoyance and other superstitious nonsense for others its a way of describing a set of beliefs without any iron clad religious dogma but what does the word mean for you.

    My computer used to have a link to a page talking about the herb, peter it wasn’t marijuana for the last time, which caused dreamlike hallucinations but didn’t have them runnin around like acid might and supposedly isn’t addictive. Wanted to try finding more to read about it but its going to be kinda hard now that I don’t have the link and can’t remember what it was called.

  • Peter

    Nothing like a nice cup of herb tea in the morning and musing over the next gem form segue.

    Hey girl, I must have gotten under your skin. You are clearly intelligent, and within the bounderies of your worldview your post often made sense. But in your efforts to paint me black you are rambling and going from bad to worse.
    I’ll admit it. As a scorpion I enjoy taking things apart and showing the underlying motive. Let’s see:

    592 ‘Every thing I said is true. If not, why didn’t you do as Randall ask and explain your beliefs?’

    What kind of reasoning is that ? My not giving Randall the answer he wanted (I’ll come back to that soon) is proof that always I refused to answer the same question on many lists ?
    (Thinking out loud) That obviously doesn’t make any sense. Why would she write it then ? Hm. She probably felt challenged because I called her assertion a lie. So she had to come up with something. The real proof – quotes – being non-existent, appealing to readers’ latent mistrust might do it.
    Yes, that must have been it. Nice try. Morally not as good ad admitting the accusation was baseless, but it shows a certain fighting spirit. OK, next.

    ‘As to your so called accomplishments; Peter, there is a major difference between “can’t” believe and “don’t” believe. I don’t believe you.

    So called accomplishments ? Well, who called them that in the first place? She did.
    Can’t and don’t. Hm, so she could believe me but doesn’t. Why not ? I have never lied to her, or to anyone here. So either she considers this combination of talents impossible, which seems strange, or she just pefers to not believe me. OK, fair enough, but she states it as if I’m to blame for her disbelief.
    Is there any point in offering to show proof of any ‘accomplishment’ she chooses to challenge ? I guess not. She would decline. She’d hate to find it’s all true and therefor will not take the risk.

    ‘As usual, you have worn out your welcome in my life.
    Good-bye.’

    Welcome ? I haven’t felt welcome since I started writing that there is actually a lot of scientific and empiric support for the notion that we are all connected on deep level.
    ‘As usual’ ??? How can one wear out one’s welcome more than once, let alone as usual ?

    Goodbye ?
    Yeah, sure. She can’t help herself, just watch.
    How do I know ? I can’t help myself. LOL

    As to your so called accomplishments; Peter, there is a major difference between “can’t” believe and “don’t” believe. I don’t believe you.
    As usual, you have worn out your welcome in my life.
    Good-bye.

  • Peter

    Olstar,
    Again, it doesn’t matter what the name is of the stuff they smoke. I know there are hallucination inducing substances one can smoke or drink. My point is that you have an outspoken opinion on matters you don’t know the first thing about. Or do you ? Based on that studies do you call NDE’s ‘garbage’ ?
    I have given a link to a lengthy discussion on the incorrubtable corpses list in an earlier post that you read. If you’re not interested enough to actualy follow the link and read there, you’re not serious. So why would I bother to repeat the whole thing here? I have no interest in discussions with people that just want to voice their uneducated opinions.
    Nothing personal and correct me if I’m wrong.

  • Peter

    Olstar, Randal, Segue

    I have refered to a lenthy discussion about phenomena and I have stated what to me is the essence of a spiritual outlook on life and contrasted it with a material view. I fail to see the point of nitpicking about an exact definition of spirituality. Let’s base discissions on facts, experience and understanding of correlations, not on definitions.

  • olstar18

    Have you ever heard of the term mummification. Causes include cold, heat, lime, mercury, and other various methods of either drying the body, keeping air away from the body or killing the germs that would cause it to decay normaly. Saying that it is caused by religious purity is garbage.

  • crazysquid

    Randell. Seriously, please go play with segue on another site. You also seem to have a “Knight In Shinning Armor” thing for her.(Thank you for clarifying her gender) So Sir Randell, as too my intellect, I am a retired U.S Army major,. I graduated from O.S.U. in 1978 with a degree in criminal law, and served 22 years in the Judge advocate general detachment. I have seen, and investigated many strange phenomena that would baffle your basic belief in humanity.

    Peter. One thing I have learned while dealing with people of every race, creed and religion is that EVERYONE has multiple personalities, such as segue/Randell. So when we say objectionable things to segue, Randell pops out and takes over. I was always interested in the unexplained phenomenons of multiple personalities that I have been following her on her many blogs. Truly astounding, and fascinating. Now she is more intelligent than anyone in history according to Sir Randell.

  • Peter

    Olstar,
    O my God, what an incredible insight. The bodies that are believed to be incorrupt as a result of ‘religious purity’ (you don’t want to give a definition of that, do you?) are in fact mummies !! OK guys, we can ll go home now. Olstar Holmes has cracked the case.

    Seriously. Look Olstar, I’m sure you are a nice guy etc. But I don’t want to discuss these things with you, as I have stated before, because IMHO you simply have no clue what you’re talking about. You’re probably young and have read a few magazines. Good for you. Keep on reading. May I make a suggestion ? Augustine and Thomas of Aquino. That’ll cure you from the illusion that everybody ever connected with the church is an idiot or a crook or both.

  • Randall

    crazysquid:

    “Randell.”

    It’s “Randall” actually. It’s not too difficult to look at someone’s name and spell it correctly.

    “Seriously, please go play with segue on another site. You also seem to have a “Knight In Shinning Armor” thing for her.”

    ‘Shining,’ not “Shinning.”

    But in any case, crazysquid, YOU still haven’t explained what “thing” it is YOU have for her—or rather, against her–and anyway, we could say the same for you–you seem to be butting in and sticking up for “Peter” when in fact he can stand up for himself, no doubt. I mean, just what is your stake in this discussion?

    Me, I’m interested in what’s being talked about here, since it seems to have caused so much rancor–but I have yet to be told just what it is! But this thread is one that interests me, (I believe I made comments when it first appeared) and I was curious as to what new discussion was being carried on here. Then I find you jumping all over segue and can’t figure out what the hell it has to do with the discussion at hand.

    And by the way, a-hole, I believe you’ve already been told that segue and I are NOT the same person, by the owner of the site (if I have my threads straight) so you can just knock off the lame attempt at maligning hers/mine/our sanity. Though I’d say *yours* might reasonably be called into question.

    I am a 44 year old male working from New York, who works at a major university. Segue, I believe, is older, a woman, and as to any other details about her, it’s not for me to reveal personal stuff about her–even the little that I know. But at any rate, we’re hardly the same person.

    Seems like an odd little quirk that some people resort to in arguments on this site—when confronted with more than one adversary, they automatically assume it has to, in actuality, be the same person—as if there couldn’t possibly be TWO people who find you offensive and wrong.

    I’d say it’s a defensiveness issue.

    “(Thank you for clarifying her gender) So Sir Randell, as too my intellect, I am a retired U.S Army major,. I graduated from O.S.U. in 1978 with a degree in criminal law,”

    It’s interesting that you didn’t bring this up previously, when you went OUT OF YOUR WAY to make remarks about “education,” then.

    As for being a retired officer… well then, I’d think a professional of that nature would conduct himself with more aplomb on a public web site. Particularly one who claims to have worked in a JAG attachment, where presumably, again, you must have developed some skills in regards to properly conducting oneself and comporting onself AS a professional.

    Yet here you are, flinging cheap insults at someone for… well, I still don’t know the reason.

    “I have seen, and investigated many strange phenomena that would baffle your basic belief in humanity.”

    Woooooooo….

    Well how about sharing them then? How about OFFERING something to the discussion instead of just returning again and again to pester people—and, frankly, irresponsibily throw around insulting judgements on the sanity of people you don’t even know, based on ZERO evidence, making snide and nasty insinuations NOT AT ALL like a professional officer who CLAIMS to have worked in the military legal arena.

    And by the way, I never said segue was “more intelligent than anyone in history” now, did I? I said she was intelligent. Period. Exaggerating someone’s words is a cute tactic–but only cute. Did you actually learn such lame devices on the job, or is that lameness innate?

  • Peter

    Crazysquid,
    interesting CV and intersting theory. I’m not sure you mean that segue is actually randall. I would find that hard to believe. But if you mean that the things and people that trigger us reveal something about our sudpersonalities, that sounds true and give an interesting perspective on these kind of discussions.

  • Baxter In Action

    Thankyou, CrazySpuid and Randall. You make me feel so young!

  • callie_

    I have no idea what’s going on here that spurned a 600+ comment debate except that I saw a few sentences on the “recent posts” on the main site and had to come check it out. Randall and Segue the same person makes me giggle. Besides being well educated and affable (once you peel back Randall’s exterior and get to the brunette lovin, wine drinkin charmer we all know he is) it’s night and day. I’ve seen you two get into it sometimes, and I totally have a mental picture of dude sitting in front of two computers typing with each hand. I’ve had a serious morning. This brought the lol’s.

  • Randall

    Peter:

    Okay, I have no further interest in getting involved in the animosity that’s going on between you and segue.

    Now… I read the post you directed at me earlier (#587) in answer to my request… but I must say it didn’t really tell me what you were getting at in this thread. I note that way up above you addressed the “non-existence” of Jesus, which I applaud—if you’ve looked around on this site, I’ve dealt with that issue myself many times, in having to cope with people who ignorantly believe it could have been possible that Jesus was “invented” out of whole cloth (which is patently absurd—nevertheless people believe many patently absurd things).

    But in your recent remarks, your thoughts on science and the nature of paranormal/supernatural experiences interest me. Now, you ask for people not to be skeptical—but can I ask, skeptical in regards to what, specifically? What issue here are you addressing? It seems to me that there was some discussion regarding the incorruptibility of the bodies of saints, but that’s it. (Which is an interesting enough topic, but hardly earth-shaking).

    I AM, as it happens, a skeptic to a certain degree… which is to say that I believe the scientific method is the best way to go about the furtherance of knowledge, and if something cannot be observed, repeated in an experiment and otherwise documented and measured, then it is outside of the purview of science and must therefore be dismissed from the realm of SCIENTIFIC “truth” until such a time as it there is evidence for it that science CAN address and examine. Whether there is “another kind” of “truth” is a different question—I am myself a spiritual individual who believes there is a great deal of mystery to existence, and the cosmos, and I believe that there is an underlying consciousness to it all. I reconcile this with my strong scientific leanings and background by simply disassociating the two; to me skepticism is a perfectly reasonable point of view of a rational mind, and key to scientific understanding. But I also recognize that there is or may be a world “hidden behind the veil,” as well. So… I remain open minded and recognize that science is limited by what it CAN see, examine, touch… sense. But I hardly need to hold science in lower regard because of this.

    I suppose there is a sort of individual that is called a “scoftic,” an invented word which I still find disquieting, because it seems to be used, for the most part, by “believers” to malign those who approach problems with a necessary skeptic eye. But perhaps there is a tendency on the part of some to be too ready to dismiss without actual consideration.

    At any rate, getting back to it—just what, specifically, are you asking people to not be SO skeptical about? IS there something specific here, or are you just speaking generally?

    If only generally, then I’d like to point out that asking for a lessening of skepticism is tantamount to undermining science. I personally find a great many paranormal phenomena interesting, or at least entertaining. I feel there is an occasional resonance, in some of these, with the deeper mystery that I feel underlies the universe and our existence. But a “sense” of something ought never to be confused with actual supportable evidence that it exists or is so.

    So I suppose I’d like to know just what it is you’re getting at here.

  • Randall

    Callie:

    Thanks babe. ;-)

  • had to pop in one last time to point out the following…
    601. Peter:…our sudpersonalities…
    there is no such thing as a SUDPERSONALITY!

  • Peter

    Randall,

    Looks like we’re not so far apart in approach. I have no scientific background but I like to read and am a sceptic by nature.
    I totally agree with the notion that something can not be called proven until it is proven. Many, but apparently not you, make the mistake to read that as: anything not proven by the present scientific methods does not exist.

    If you’d read the discussion on the corpses forum, which goes way beyond the corpses, you’d come across my statement that some phenomena don’t lend themselves to being researched in the ordinary way. The problem I encounter then is that it is hard to explain this to those that don’t have the experience of being connected on a subtle level. And so I get thrown in with the spoonbenders and the religious fanatics by those that arent drawn to subtlety.

    And this is where we come from slightly different angles, perhaps. To me the scientific reality and the spiritual realm are not apart. To feel energy (of people, places, even websites of pictures) is an everyday reality for me; the result of years of practise and a certain phsical condition. So I try to find a space for discussion where we are rid of the nonsense of ‘Mr Ubidah brings back your lost lover’ as well as the notion that ‘it’s all garbage and bullshit’.
    There are in fact areas where research into phenomena such as NDE or precognition is possible. You’ll find some of them on the mentioned forum.

    I hope this clarifies my position and interests somewhat. And I hope you don’t mind me refering to lengthy discussions already posted, rather than rewriting them.

  • Peter

    606
    I predicted it:
    ‘Goodbye ?
    Yeah, sure. She can’t help herself, just watch.’

  • crazysquid

    Randall. My mistake for the mispelling of your post name. And thank you for pointing out the mispelling of the word “shining”. You have come to my rescue also, and indeed I am eternally in your debt, sir randall.
    As for my not mentioning my past education/service, I choose not to discuss such things in an open forum for security reasons. As anyone will tell you, even though you are “Retired” you are still receiving monitary recompence from the U.S. Government, and as such are still subject to the Uniform Code Of military Justice, and any slip of protacal can be interpreted as treason.
    As to my intelligence, I have a good understanding and a high mental capacity, with quick, comprehending, sound thought and good judgement. My faculties for reasoning and understanding are highly funtioning.
    As to some of the things that I can talk about that are a mystery is the 27 year old staff sargent that walked into a Mosque in Iraq, a fully funtional killing machine, and came out as a pacifist in only 15 minutes. He swears that what he called a “blast of light” pushed him to his knees, and a roar in his head ensued to the point of bringing him to tears. He refused to carry a weapon after that. He was honorably disharged. His testimony was so convencing that I truly wanted to believe him. Hell we had Presidents who have claimed to have seen U.F.O.s and talked with mediums, why not believe a staff sargent to have had a spiritual encounter.

  • Peter

    Crazysquid,
    that’s one example of experiences, reported throughout the ages in every corner of the world by everybody and their uncle, that defy being tested double blind with control group etc.

  • crazysquid

    Peter
    Uh, O.K. Not quite gettin’ your point sport. What i am driving at is how this man, with decorations, spit and shine attitude towards the army, career oriented can just say “I quit!”. Yes i have heard and read stories of “Dogs telling people to kill”, like the Son Of Sam, and Angels converting people to Christianity, but until you get up close and personal to it, you never really see the underlying story. The real oddest thing about him was that, he did not state that he now was “Born Again” or had any other religious convictions that he did not already have.

  • Matt Howard

    Hey Peter! Long time no speak mate!

    I can see the conversation on this topic is more or less the same that we have been having on the ‘incorrupt corpses’ thread. I must say, it’s going to be nice debating with you again compared to the creationists I’ve been going back and forth with recently. You must think I’m a right argumentative little pratt:P

    “Looks like we’re not so far apart in approach. I have no scientific background but I like to read and am a sceptic by nature.
    I totally agree with the notion that something can not be called proven until it is proven. Many, but apparently not you, make the mistake to read that as: anything not proven by the present scientific methods does not exist.”

    Science doesn’t quite work that way, Peter. Science doesn’t actually try and ‘prove’ anything in the strict sense; it tries to falsify things. If a theory is put forth with substantial evidence and it has an ability to survive attempt after attempt to falsify it, it gets supported. It doesn’t get ‘proven’; it simply exists as the best explanation for a phenomena until it is falsified. I won’t go on about Popperian falsification and the black swan argument as I’m pretty sure you’ve heard it, but it is a really concise example of the framework in which scientific theories operate.

    “To me the scientific reality and the spiritual realm are not apart. To feel energy (of people, places, even websites of pictures) is an everyday reality for me; the result of years of practise and a certain phsical condition.”

    This is where you and me fundamentally differ. I consider the objectivity of the scientific method to be its greatest strength; it’s ability to conduct tests and experiments that can be examined by anyone is an extremely effective way of understanding reality, as it is not dependent on subjectivity.

    I do understand what you are trying to say, and I do accept that you experience certain feelings and emotions that you interpret as ‘energy’. But by saying that it is purely subjective and dependent on the person (which is really exclusionary as it relegates people who can’t feel this energy to the uninvolved) unfortunately renders it incompatible with science.

    Just to preempt a response I have a feeling you may make in regards to quantum physics, I want to offer an objection. I know from previous posts that you make an argument around the change in sub-atomic particles that are dependent on the observer in order to support your hypothesis that there is a subjective reality. I reject this, however, as although sub-atomic particles may act differently depending on the observer, an observer is never excluded or rendered ineffective based on their personal attributes. I realize this isn’t the strongest argument, but it does highlight that if anyone can observe the behavior of these particles then it doesn’t make it strictly subjective.

    “There are in fact areas where research into phenomena such as NDE or precognition is possible. You’ll find some of them on the mentioned forum.”

    I totally agree. What I would argue, though, is that there hasn’t actually been any convincing evidence that would stand up to peer-review in order to support a theory. A few ambiguous papers don’t really offer extraordinary evidence for what is, in essence, an extremely extraordinary claim.

    Good to get chatting again, Peter. Hope to hear from you soon!

  • olstar18

    Precognition, lol. What you going to talk about next peter remote viewing or how about claiming that television psychic wasn’t a fake making cold readings with lots of video tape. I will admit that there was a time when I believed in such things but as I grew up I started reading into the alternate explanations. Like did you know that pilots taking that centrifuge test routinely have near death experiences, they call them dreams. As for the experiences caused by say a narrowly missed car accident how about stress. Like I have said before first consider the mundane possibilities and only after you have considered every single one go to the supernatural.

  • Peter

    Matt. nice to see you’re still alive and kicking. I’ll get back to you asap.

    Olstar,
    You obviously think you have read and understood more than I have and so you feel justified in mildly mocking me. That’s fine. But before I discuss something like NDE with you, I’d like to make sure you have in fact any idea what you’re talking about. So could you please answer the following questions:
    What percentage (roughly is fine) of people with NDE fall into a serious depression?
    What percentage divorce their spouse wihthin 3 years ?
    What percentage considers their NDE a life changing experience ?
    What understanding do all people with a NDE under their belt share ?

    My guess is you won’t be able to answer these questions, but do surprise me.
    BTW There is no such thing as supernatural.

    Greetings

  • olstar18

    Well I can see you think that you have an idea what your talking about but I have a few qeustions of my own. How many people have had nde’s but realised they were dreams. Why do none of these pilots make these same claims. If you really have read extensively on anything why have you repeatedly taken what people have said here completely out of context or misquoted them entirely. That also goes for your claim at being involved with any form of periodical as one of the most important requirements is to get your facts straight. I do not doubt your claim at being a writer for whatever the paper is however I do doubt the quality of journalism any paper that would have a writer so lacking in basic reading and comprehension to so consistently misunderstand what people were saying.

  • olstar18

    And then there is your inability to use even an online dictionary.

    su?per?nat?u?ral
    ? ?/?sup?r?næt??r?l, -?næt?r?l/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl] Show IPA
    –adjective
    1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
    2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
    3. of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
    4. of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.
    –noun
    5. a being, place, object, occurrence, etc., considered as supernatural or of supernatural origin; that which is supernatural, or outside the natural order.
    6. behavior supposedly caused by the intervention of supernatural beings.
    7. direct influence or action of a deity on earthly affairs.
    8. the supernatural,
    a. supernatural beings, behavior, and occurrences collectively.
    b. supernatural forces and the supernatural plane of existence: a deep fear of the supernatural.

  • Matt Howard

    olstar18:

    I think what Peter is arguing is that what we consider to be ‘supernatural’ in the colloquial use of the term he considers natural because he believe not only that they exist and manifest in reality but that they can also be measured.

    I tend to disagree as I don’t think any scientific experiment has been conducted that shows conclusively that these things exist and for the sake of ease I call them supernatural. I also think they are unscientific as the things that Peter advocates have no theory or body of knowledge behind them (i.e. the mechanisms behind OBE’s, psychic phenomena, homeopathy are non-existent; the phenomena themselves are described but how they actually work is vague and no one is willing to postulate an experiment that can address the mechanism).

    I find that string theory treads this line very precariously. While the mathematics behind it are sound, it’s quite unsettling to hear physicists admit that there is absolutely no way to view or measure a ‘string’ or conduct an experiment that would even confirm their existence.

  • lostatsea

    Having both sailed and flown over and through the Straits of Gibralter I can attest to the turbulence encountered there. It’s quite possible that the casks may have leaked and caused an alcohol flash fire from the vapour thus the abandonment of the vessel!!

  • Peter

    Olstar,

    My last line before your post was:
    ‘My guess is you won’t be able to answer these questions, but do surprise me.’

    Well, you didn’t surprise me.
    I’ll be happy to answer your questions, pretty easy, after you’ve conceded.

  • olstar18

    Besides the last set of questions I have another question that you must answer first. What does all of that have to do with either what nde’s are or what causes them. You could talk about the changes in someone who believes they had an nde but that has absolutely nothing to do with what caused the experience now does it.

  • Peter

    Olstar,
    I have stated before that I’m not inclined to discuss these issues with you, because I have the impression that you don’t really know much about them. With every comment you conform this impression.
    Now you write you have a question I ‘must answer first.’ First before what ? Beofre you answer mine ? You’re not going to do that, because you can’t. Because you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re not going to think about what I write. You have some uninformed ideas and you don’t want them challenged because you want to keep them. That’s fine with me. Discussion over.

  • olstar18

    In other words if I dont answer a question it means I dont know the answer if you dont it means I dont know what I’m talking about. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean my conclussion is uninformed however your refusal to address other possibilities like Dr. Rick Strassman’s theory that after death or near death Dimethyltryptamine is released from the pineal gland. Dimethyltryptamine. But I’m sure you being the expert on the field know all about his study.

  • olstar18

    And before I forget WHAT DOES ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT AN NDE REALY IS!

  • Peter

    623
    That’s the point Olstar. If you knew the answers to my question, you wouldn’t ask this.

  • Gryphaena

    Man! I think I read somewhere that a woman said that her father was the Zodiac Killer but I forgot what publication it was. I think it was either a magazine or a newspaper.
    On an unrelated note, I am glad that there are no spammers here.

  • olstar18

    No that is not the point. Does the fact that alcoholism leads to depression and causes a great many family problems, some of which end in divorce, and has lead to people to completely change their outlook on life mean that their desire for more alcohol is a spiritual event. Of course not so don’t try to use some flimsy arguments like that. If such arguments were accepted as proof by any legitimate academic organization then they would have more than enough proof to say that ‘jesus toast’ was really a spiritual event not someone letting their imagination run wild.

  • Peter

    Olstar,
    Give me a break, OK ? Study the material, draw your conclusions and then come back.

  • olstar18

    Already have you just seem to think I havn’t simply because I didn’t come up with your conclusion. Now how about you actually find an argument to support your side of this discussion that doesn’t sum up to ‘if you question me then you don’t know what your talking about.’

  • ibelieve

    O, please olstar18 stop Q Peter and draw your own conclusion. Think a bit.

    Thank you Peter! I enjoy your feed back on discussions.

  • olstar18

    Sure stop questioning peter and just believe everything his says like a nice little zombie. Yeeessss masssteeeerr. No explanation for near death experience other than supernatural all who say otherwise evil.

  • Peter

    611 Crazysquid,
    that is indeed what I meant. Throughout time, and everywhere on the globe, these kind of encouters with ‘something’ have happened. It is understandable that as long as people were living relatively isolated – basically during all of history untill recently – they would interpret these experiences within their own cultural / religious context. To put it simply, a christian would have met an angel or heard the voice of Jesus, whereas a hindu might claim to have had a vision of Krishna. Now that we are more of a global village, it is becoming obvious that there is only one ‘something’ that we have these dramatic encounters with.
    I don’t want to even try to define this ‘something’, but a few charasteristics of these encounters seem universal:
    they are personal (your soldier in the mosque didn’t think ‘maybe this was meant for somebody else’); the perception of time is different from time as we know it; they have an immediate and lasting impact; the person having the experience is aware that ‘something’ is more powerful (bigger, higher) than the individual.

    These experiences fit in with both what mystics/saints/masters throughout the ages have stated and what many top scientists are saying presently: there is only one consciousness and the material world is a manifestation of that.
    The difference between people like you and me, and people like my friend Matt, my mother in law Segue and new kid on the block Olstar, is simply that we have seen and heard enough to realise that there is more to these encounters and phenomena than lies, illusions and tricks, and they haven’t. Yet.

  • Peter
  • olstar18

    Perhaps I should explain my beliefs before you continue to make a fool of yourself. I believe there is a god of creation, wisdom, compassion, mercy , etc. I believe that he created everything using science and guided evolutions path until it lead to man. And finaly I believe that in his wisdom he keeps his hands out of our world. There would be no point to faith if we had proof of his existence and any good we did to help those around us would be worth nothing if we did it because there were miracles happening around him proving that there would be a reward for it. Now the true difference between me and you is your faith needs to be propped up with these foolish miracles while mine is built solely upon my reading both fiction and nonfiction. If you wonder what fiction could have to do with faith then try reading A Tale of Two Cities or Anne Rice’s Vampires series.

  • olstar18

    And peter its k9inda strange that with it becoming clear that there is only one ‘something’ why are there so many that believe in many ‘somthings’.

  • Peter

    Olstar,
    I was afraid I lost you. My life wouldn’t be the same.
    Let me take it piece by piece.

    ‘Perhaps I should explain my beliefs before you continue to make a fool of yourself.’

    May I use this little gem in my next book ?

    I believe there is a god of creation, wisdom, compassion, mercy , etc. I believe that he created everything using science and guided evolutions path until it lead to man.

    God is a she Olstar. So, obviously science can’t have been the tool here. Also because there was no science before creation.

    ‘And finaly I believe that in his wisdom he keeps his hands out of our world.’

    But Olstar, you just told us that he guided evolutions’ path.

    ‘There would be no point to faith if we had proof of his existence and any good we did to help those around us would be worth nothing if we did it because there were miracles happening around him proving that there would be a reward for it.’

    OK, I didn’t know you are a muslim. No problem, I have fond memories of my stays in the UAE and my muslim friends there.

    ‘Now the true difference between me and you is your faith needs to be propped up with these foolish miracles’

    I have no faith. In spite of your expressed desire to know more about my views, you obviously never bothered to read my posts on the incorrubtable corpses list. Yo would have read that according to me, without experience religion is just words.

    ‘while mine is built solely upon my reading both fiction and nonfiction. If you wonder what fiction could have to do with faith then try reading A Tale of Two Cities or Anne Rice’s Vampires series.’

    I read Vampirella when I was young. Hot stuff indeed.

    Well, I did my best. I guess I’ll just keep on making a fool of myself.

  • Peter

    PS
    Sorry, forgot to put this sentence in quotation marks.

    ‘I believe there is a god of creation, wisdom, compassion, mercy , etc. I believe that he created everything using science and guided evolutions path until it lead to man.’

  • olstar18

    Guess it was pointless to try explaining anything to a troll. I doubt you will understand this but faith is not religion.

  • Matt Howard

    olstar18:

    “I believe there is a god of creation, wisdom, compassion, mercy , etc. I believe that he created everything using science and guided evolutions path until it lead to man.”

    I don’t mean to sound offensive or deride you, but how can you criticize Peter’s ideas and beliefs when you yourself hold a belief that is untestable and unfalsifiable?

    Trust me, I’m not one to defend Peter’s beliefs because I myself don’t think they exist, but at least some of his ideas have the potential to be tested and verified. A vague belief in some sort of undefined spirit in the sky seems a bit silly to me.

    Again, I’m not trying to have a go at you, I’m just offering my opinion as to why I think you don’t have the most suitable ground to criticize Peter.

  • Peter

    For my magazine I just had an interview with this man. He seemed nice and sincere.
    http://www.fruitnut.net/HTML/106_Breaths_People_Hira_Ratan_Manek_2.htm

  • neurogenic

    I believe they recently showed on the history channel that the hands can support crucifixion, even though i forgot the exact method how. Im sure it can be found on their site or the internet somewhere.
    Science has the ability to explain how nature and the universe works, and give us the means to harness it to our will. But, science becomes arrogant when it claims it can disprove, or ever disprove the existence of God. Even if it explains completely and fully, with proof, how the universe came into existence there is still room for God. God is the “Great Unknown”, what makes us, barely evolved consciousness, think we are ready to “see God”.It is arrogant. Moses was the most humble and holy man in scripture and was only able to see the passing backside of God’s glory, “and his face glowed…”. Im not trying to convert anybody just sharing my thoughts. And you cant tell me that science people dont defend there desire for there to be no God just as fervently as the religious defend their desire for there to be a God. They just approach it from the logical, intellectual way, whereas the religious approach it from the heart, spiritual way.

  • Matt Howard

    neurogenic:

    “Science has the ability to explain how nature and the universe works, and give us the means to harness it to our will. But, science becomes arrogant when it claims it can disprove, or ever disprove the existence of God. Even if it explains completely and fully, with proof, how the universe came into existence there is still room for God. God is the “Great Unknown”, what makes us, barely evolved consciousness, think we are ready to “see God”.It is arrogant. Moses was the most humble and holy man in scripture and was only able to see the passing backside of God’s glory, “and his face glowed…”. Im not trying to convert anybody just sharing my thoughts. And you cant tell me that science people dont defend there desire for there to be no God just as fervently as the religious defend their desire for there to be a God. They just approach it from the logical, intellectual way, whereas the religious approach it from the heart, spiritual way.”

    Science has NEVER claimed to be able to disprove God, just as science can NEVER disprove any phenomena with absolute certainty. What you fail to see is that for anyone who makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence. Without that evidence, the default position for any claim is disbelief.

    ‘Science people’ don’t defend their desire for there to be no God; they simply reject the assertion that there is a God because there is no convincing evidence to the contrary. I even feel a bit silly writing ‘science people’ as you have basically labeled every scientist, both theist and atheist, under this blanket term that effectively turns millions of people into caricatures.

    “Even if it explains completely and fully, with proof, how the universe came into existence there is still room for God”

    You have summed up the fundamentalist position quite accurately. While ‘science people’, as you claim don’t necessarily believe in God, evidence that would support God existence would be accepted due to the nature of science. There simply is none up to now. If there was, scientists would accept it.

    You on the other hand have just fully admitted that no matter what evidence, what proof, what falsification, you will ALWAYS believe in God. THAT is so much more arrogant than the science you so ignorantly deride.

  • oouchan

    640. neurogenic: I agree with Matt here. You stated: “Even if it explains completely and fully, with proof, how the universe came into existence there is still room for God”
    You can still believe what you want. No one is going to stop you, but if proof is laid out before you…what will you do then?
    Now the opposite is true of that. If god were standing there looking us in the face, then would we fall back on science? Who knows.
    Maybe an open mind might be better then a closed one when dealing with both science and religion. Happy harmony, in my opinion. :D

  • neurogenic

    I never derided science, I said science has its own powers,but I was saying that they dont have the power to falsify God, even though they claim to. And there are science people(meaning the people on the science side of the debate, religious people being on the God side of the debate) that do have their own baises,not all but some.

    To say that there is no evidence of God is not true. The countless spiritual experiences that people from all walks of life have had since the beginning of recorded history is evidence. From healing experiences to answered prayers, visions, miracles, encounters with angels, near-death experiences(well documented with experiencers ranging from doctors to children), prophecies in the Bible that came to pass. It is a common myth that most doctors do not believe in God(most do), because the nature of there business, and the things they experience on a daily basis presuays them to. If you dont believe me then i challenge you to take a poll. Then there are the new sciences that are starting to actually break into the science of God. I am just trying to make a point that even thought science says that i am delusional for believing in God that they cannot proof it.

  • Matt Howard

    neurogenic:

    “I never derided science, I said science has its own powers,but I was saying that they dont have the power to falsify God, even though they claim to”

    Of course it doesn’t, just as science doesn’t have the power to absolutely disprove the claim that there is an invisible leprechaun living in the center of the moon that is undetectable and transcendent. But that isn’t the job of science; it’s the job of people like YOU to provide evidence for your claims and establish repeatable experiments that support or falsify your hypothesis.

    “To say that there is no evidence of God is not true.”

    Yes it is. Provide me with an experiment that can be objectively performed and repeated that produces evidence of God.

    “The countless spiritual experiences that people from all walks of life have had since the beginning of recorded history is evidence.”

    No, they’re not. Eye witness experience and personal anecdotes are recognized by even the most liberal historian as being close to worthless. Objectivity is paramount.

    “Then there are the new sciences that are starting to actually break into the science of God”

    …like what? Give examples. The closest is Intelligent Design which is one of the most deceptive and ridiculous excuses for science since phrenology and parapsychology.

    “I am just trying to make a point that even thought science says that i am delusional for believing in God that they cannot proof it.”

    Science doesn’t say you’re delusional. Certain scientists who are prominent atheists say that and that is their opinion. Science sits on the fence and awaits the presentation of extraordinary evidence before leaping to the extraordinary conclusion that there is a God/s.

  • neurogenic

    “You can still believe what you want. No one is going to stop you, but if proof is laid out before you…what will you do then”? still room for God meaning there is always the possibilty that God started the process. You can explain how a seed grows into a plant but you can never fully explain where the seed came from.

  • oouchan

    643. neurogenic: Science of god? ummm…that’s a new one. Never heard of that one before. I am not pointing out what you should or should not believe in, you can believe whatever you want. But please, there is not “science of god”. Science is currently studing about god and for proof therein, that would be it. Matt pointed out very well that there is one type trying to claim itself as a science, but they don’t follow the basic rules of science.

    “To say that there is no evidence of God is not true.”
    Only if you believe. If you don’t…then there isn’t proof. I don’t belive in god. For me, science proves all that I need…for now. So far, no proof that there is or isn’t a god so…I wait to see what happens.

    “You can explain how a seed grows into a plant but you can never fully explain where the seed came from.”
    Yes…I believe science already did that one.

    Look, I am not trying to diswade you from your beiefs. However, try not to do the same with me. Science has proven a lot of situations out there and there is still a great amount that is unknown. I for one, am excited for the new fact or tidbit they come up with. This is why I wait. That and one cannot exist on blind faith alone…at least to me.

    On topic for a moment: My favorite from this list has got to be the bermuda triangle. I don’t really care if it’s true or not, but hey…why risk it? :D

  • Spange

    neurogenic. I never derided science, I said science has its own powers,but I was saying that they dont have the power to falsify God, even though they claim to. And there are science people(meaning the people on the science side of the debate, religious people being on the God side of the debate) that do have their own baises,not all but some.

    Ok I have to say this. Scientists, real scientists not crackpots, do not claim to have the power to falsify God. The debate of “God vs No God” is not science vs religion. It’s theist vs atheist. Yes, most atheists have an interest in science and look to science to provide answers theists might turn to a god for. But remember science is not a belief system, it’s a tool. An athiest may well personally require proof that stands up to examination using the tools of science – that doesn’t mean either that science is anti-theist or that science can prove God exists or doesn’t (or that it wants to even).

    It pains me how science as some kind of organic entity is held up as the enemy of religion or God or whatever. It’s nothing of the sort. And that fallacy is dangerous, it turns people away from scientific discovery, it fosters mistrust, it even makes some people renounce medicine. Science doesn’t say you are delusional for believing in God, it’s not evil, it doesn’t hate you or think you are dumb. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.

    OK I realised that since I began my oft distracted from typing here, other peeps have addressed my point. But I’m going to post it anyway.

  • neurogenic

    No one is debating the existence of leprechans on the moon, we are debating the existence of something that possibly billions of people have had profound experiences with, and yes it is evidence, not proof but evidence. If billions of people are claiming they feel bad it is not evidence of a sickness. Or visa-versa. There are many near- death experiences where people describe things going on in the room that they absolutely should not know, is that not repeated evidence? Prophesies coming true not evidence, and people being miraculously healed, witch has happened many times ,with witneses, without explination. Is that not evidence?

  • neurogenic

    “Look, I am not trying to diswade you from your beiefs. However, try not to do the same with me.”

    Not trying to just putting my thoughts down like you are

  • neurogenic

    and i dont feel science has called me stupid or that i am evil and all that you said spange. I love science and medcine.

  • oouchan

    neurogenic: Correct…you are putting forward your thoughts but you are stating them to be fact. There is no evidence to prove or not prove god. It’s still in research. This is what Matt and I (and now Spange) are trying to point out to you. All of what you say (NDE, Prophecy, healings, etc) cannot be explained but that doesn’t mean it’s god. It just means…we don’t know yet.

    We can’t just turn around and point at the unexplained and say “godunit”. Once all avenues have been exhausted, then we might be able to travel down that road. Until then, we need to keep our minds and eyes open.

    This post is not in any way telling you how you should believe. It truly is just my thoughts. However, I don’t want you to be confused as to where we are coming from…we are not attacking you or your beliefs…just the thought process behind…based on your comments. No offence meant.

  • neurogenic

    I dont feel attcked. I dont want you to feel attacked either,and if you do i apologize. And if i sounded factual i didnt mean to. I was simply trying to illuminate a certain terrain. And i understand your points and know where you are coming from.

  • Matt Howard

    neurogenic:

    “No one is debating the existence of leprechans on the moon, we are debating the existence of something that possibly billions of people have had profound experiences with, and yes it is evidence, not proof but evidence. If billions of people are claiming they feel bad it is not evidence of a sickness. Or visa-versa. There are many near- death experiences where people describe things going on in the room that they absolutely should not know, is that not repeated evidence? Prophesies coming true not evidence, and people being miraculously healed, witch has happened many times ,with witneses, without explination. Is that not evidence?”

    Nope, none of that is evidence of God.

    “we are debating the existence of something that possibly billions of people have had profound experiences with, and yes it is evidence, not proof but evidence. If billions of people are claiming they feel bad it is not evidence of a sickness.”

    Sicknesses can be analyzed, hence, supporting evidence of the phenomena can be provided. People may feel sick, but the inquiry doesn’t stop there; people have blood tests, tests for infections etc etc etc. Also, it doesn’t matter how many people believe something, it has absolutely no effect on the truth-value of the belief. Millions of people in India believe in Vishnu, doesn’t make it true.

    “There are many near- death experiences where people describe things going on in the room that they absolutely should not know, is that not repeated evidence?”

    Nope. You ignored my argument that subjective experience is not scientific evidence. NDE’s can and have been explained by natural means. It is true that there are still things we aren’t 100% certain on in regards to NDE’s, but that doesn’t mean you can just throw God/Satan/Vishnu/Thor into the gap. That stymies science and propagates ignorance.

    “Prophesies coming true not evidence”

    Coincidence. What about all the prophecies that haven’t come true?

    “people being miraculously healed”

    Same thing; what about all the millions of people who die of cancer? And why does God simply ‘heal’ people that have ambiguously ‘invisible’ illnesses? It’s always cancer, or an infection or a virus, God never heals someone who has lost both legs.

    “Is that not evidence?”

    Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. All subjective experiences, hearsay, eye witness accounts and personal anecdotes. It’s not evidence at all.

  • neurogenic

    I wouldn’t tell the experiencer that its not evidence. NDE’s have not been explained by natural means. They found that electric stimulation in certain parts of the brain could produce the beginning of one( where is the evolutionary basis for that one) but could not produce the psychic knowledge that real experiencer have had. Biblical prophecy is very consistent and accurate. The reason for healing or no healing can have many different variables. Healing of legs would impinge on the mystery of God. And i wasnt talking about belief i was talking about experiences. These things do lie in the area of evidence witch his all you asked for. And since you can look into these things any futher at the moment it is still evidence.

  • Maggot

    643 neurogenic: From healing experiences to answered prayers, visions, miracles, encounters with angels, near-death experiences(well documented with experiencers ranging from doctors to children), prophecies in the Bible that came to pass.

    aka dreams, hallucinations, lucky guesses, and coincidences. You just want to put a pretty bow on it all and call it “god”, eh?

  • Matt Howard

    neurogenic:

    “NDE’s have not been explained by natural means. They found that electric stimulation in certain parts of the brain could produce the beginning of one( where is the evolutionary basis for that one) but could not produce the psychic knowledge that real experiencer have had.”

    Even if what you said was true, it is an argument from ignorance i.e. if we can’t explain what it is at this moment in time, then it MUST be God. This is a logical fallacy and doesn’t hold any weight.

    “Biblical prophecy is very consistent and accurate”

    Again, this is not true, but even if it was the actual text of the Bible is too vague and lacking in specific information as to make the predictions right. The Bible code, although interesting, is pretty much redundant. Scholars did exactly the same thing with Moby Dick.

    “Healing of legs would impinge on the mystery of God”

    …so God chooses which people to heal, no matter how debilitating their illness, simply so he can remain anonymous? Wow. What a loving God. I guess a 90 year old priest who is healed of cancer is much more deserving than a 5 year old quadruple amputee who lost their limbs to meningoccocal.

    “And i wasnt talking about belief i was talking about experiences. These things do lie in the area of evidence witch his all you asked for. And since you can look into these things any futher at the moment it is still evidence.”

    I can’t look into personal experience or personal Revelation because…they are personal! Unless there is corroborating evidence that supports the claim then eye witness accounts and personal experience are absolutely useless from a scientific perspective.

  • Peter

    hey guys, nice debate you had while I slept. May I put in my 2 cents ?
    First of all, I agree with Spange: ‘Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.’

    655 Maggot, it is totally unscientific to caim that the things neurogenic mentions equal ‘dreams, hallucinations, lucky guesses, and coincidences.’ It goes against common sense and against human experience.

    Matt, there is something ambiguous in your position. On one hand you say that science can only disprove, and on the other you say that the burden of proof is on neurogenic or me any time we make a claim. Also, you seem more biased than you realise. As wrote in the other list, I gave you by now 5 names of nobel laureates (not sure about Popp, to be honest) in physics that support my position, and yet you state I come up with ‘fringe scientist.’ I have given you various serious sources that confirm the existence of an energysystem in/around the body, plus several experiences involving observation by others, plus common sense arguments. As I said before, nowadays around 7 out of 10 young people in a random yogagoup will be able to feel energy within 10 minutes; it is a perfectly normal everyday thing for millions of people. Yet you insist on calling feeling energy — ‘personal experience’ and therefore not relevant in a discussion. There are more examples of your bias, but I don’t want to make this too long. I do understand that your bias comes from a desire to be sure and not follow illusions, but I think you’re taking it too far and you close roads before you have walked them a bit to see where they might lead.
    Other issue: there is no way we can ever prove the existence of God, because we are part of it. The notion that God is something – or even someone – outside of the world is comfortable for religious leaders that like to teach rules and dogmas, but it is not the message of the ones that inspired the great religions. Again, the idea that God can be proven scientifically – and hence also the idea that the lack of proof is any indication against God’s existence – is absurd. The mind can only function in time and space, and the things we are discussing here are outside of that realm. We can observe and draw conclusions, but we can’t ‘know life’ with the mind.

    At the same time I’m with Matt on predictions in the Bible. Even though I do believe that precognition does occur and that man can tap into information outside of time, we can’t draw conclusions from books that are old, assembled over long periods of time from various sources by various writers with different agendas. This not only goes for the bible but also for other books with predictions in other cultures.
    The simple everyday kind of precognition is like this: a man and a woman are on holiday and stay at a campsite. Their neigbour tells them that she just heard their numberplate mentioned on the radio in the ‘summer alarm service’. The man says to his wife: ‘there must be something wrong with your mother.’ Understandably, since she is old and frail. The woman says: ‘no, it is our son. I dreamt last night that he lived in a wheelchair.’ It turned out she was right. The son had an accident that day (after the dream) and still lives in a wheelchair.
    These kind of things happen every day. Those who would deny that or put that in the ‘fake, lies, illusions, coincidences’ category, live in a fantasyworld.

    Does this prove God exists ? That depends on your defenition of God. To me these things, and countless other experiences and phenomena like Neurogenic mentions, confirm something that we all know deep down, which is that life is not limited to what we can understand with the mind. On the material plane we are seperated; on the plane of consciousness we are not. The relationship between the two planes is what we are discussing and what science is beginning to find its way into. In my opinion some of the phenomena mentioned in these lists have nothing to do with this; some do.
    NDE’s do. I am with Neurogenic on this. The documented cases of NDE and of out of body experiences go way beyond ‘hearsay’ or ‘irrelevant subjective experience’ or experiences resulting from stimulating the brain. They seem to support the notion that the brain is but an instrument, a meeting point, an interface between consciousness and the material world.

    A few loose remarks in support of Neurogenic:
    – The number of people in secular North-west Europe admitting they had contact with a deceased person, is twice as high as the number of people calling themselves religious. Minimally the implication of this is that those that assume and/or claim that only believers in heaven have this kind of (obviously illusery hahaha) contact, are dead wrong.
    – A patient told her doctor about her meeting with an angel. He became interested and decided to ask all his patients if they had ever had seen or had contact with an angel. To his astonishment 40% of them admitted that they had.
    Again, this does not prove angels exist. For staters, we don’t have a definition. But it does mean that the ones that consider these experiences bs, are the unscientific and closed minded ones here. As I wrote before, a scientific mind is a curious mind.

    Greetings.
    PS Yes, that son was me. My mother also knew it when my pregnant sister had lost her baby.
    A few times a year my wife will say about a patient in the waitingroom: ‘she is pregnant but she doesn’t know it yet.’ Or ‘he’s going to die soon’. She is always right. It’s no big deal to her.
    There are many people like her. Everyone who has met two or three people like that, is forever cured of the notion that this is all nonsense from desperate believers or sorry spacecases.

  • Matt Howard

    Peter:

    “Matt, there is something ambiguous in your position. On one hand you say that science can only disprove, and on the other you say that the burden of proof is on neurogenic or me any time we make a claim.”

    …The burden of proof is. Any positive claim made needs to be supported by evidence. This is the basis of all scientific inquiry. It’s not good enough saying ‘well you can’t disprove my belief’ without providing supporting evidence. Yes, science works around falsification; but in order to falsify a claim it needs to be shown that it CAN be falsified.

    “in physics that support my position, and yet you state I come up with ‘fringe scientist.’”

    They are fringe scientists in the regard that their personal ideas are not part of the scientific discourse. What you keep failing to realize is that science is not just about men with Ph.D’s; it is the METHOD that is most important. Look at the Intelligent Design movement. You have people there who have Ph.D’s (who have admitted the only reason they obtained one was to try and destroy evolution) yet the science is simply fraudulent; they don’t follow any methodology, they simply assert their beliefs and rely on their Ph.D’s to give it credence.

    The scientific method of peer review and criticism is the most important method in order to understand the natural world, and simply because someone gets a Ph.D doesn’t automatically make them right about everything. Peer review is the strongest way to differentiate the validity of claims and theories.

    My point is this; scientists are completely fallible and can be wrong about pretty much everything. In order to accommodate for basic human error and fallibility, a pooling of knowledge and subsequent critique of particularly weak parts is needed in order to distinguish as best we can the good from the bad. People like Sheldrake and Chopra simply don’t want to do this; they go out, by themselves without any critics and simply do their own thing. Then they expect people to believe that they have somehow uncovered strange and unique facts about the world completely by themselves?! Please.

    “I have given you various serious sources that confirm the existence of an energysystem in/around the body, plus several experiences involving observation by others, plus common sense arguments”

    In no way is there any proof of this ‘energy’ system (which, after countless time you still haven’t even defined and at this point I don’t think I’ll address any more of your points about ‘energy’). In fact, I can remember pointing you to a paper in a peer-reviewed scientific journal my Victor Stenger that discredits the idea of this ‘energy’ and you simply dismissed it out of hand because you claim he was a ‘ghostbuster’. THAT is biased. For future reference, point me to a universal definition of this ‘energy’ (just as kinetic and radiant energy has universal defnitions) and proceed with your argument from there. This constant reference to a vague and undefinable (which you yourself admitted in previous posts) is getting old and if you can’t even define the phenomena you’re claiming exists, then there is no need for further discussion on it.

    “As I said before, nowadays around 7 out of 10 young people in a random yogagoup will be able to feel energy within 10 minutes; it is a perfectly normal everyday thing for millions of people. Yet you insist on calling feeling energy — ‘personal experience’ and therefore not relevant in a discussion.”

    I don’t care what people feel. What they feel doesn’t make it true. I can smoke pot and ‘feel’ like I’m one with the world and that I’m eating a particularly juicy ice cream. Doesn’t make it real. This is one particular area where you and me fundamentally differ. I don’t particularly give much credence to peoples personal experiences and anecdotes as I don’t think they constitute rigorous scientific evidence. I simply think there are too many variables that can alter peoples perceptions of things, from drugs and hallucinogens to simple failure of our senses (hearing things that aren’t there, seeing things that may be ambiguous). I mean if personal experience and what people see was taken as proof of a phenomena without further investigation and skepticism, then everyone would still believe that the Sun rotated around the Earth.

    “NDE’s do. I am with Neurogenic on this. The documented cases of NDE and of out of body experiences go way beyond ‘hearsay’ or ‘irrelevant subjective experience’ or experiences resulting from stimulating the brain. They seem to support the notion that the brain is but an instrument, a meeting point, an interface between consciousness and the material world.”

    That last sentence is an astonishing claim. And it requires astonishing evidence, not a personal anecdote from someone who has already sustained massive brain trauma. Again, provide evidence of this claim, not an ambiguous and fairly weak anecdote about someone seeing their dead dog after they were whacked in the head with a baseball bat.

    “A patient told her doctor about her meeting with an angel. He became interested and decided to ask all his patients if they had ever had seen or had contact with an angel. To his astonishment 40% of them admitted that they had.”

    Big deal. 55% of Americans believe that the Earth was created 6000 years ago. Do you extend to them the same ‘tolerance’?

    “As I wrote before, a scientific mind is a curious mind.”

    True. Yet a scientific mind is also extremely skeptical. I’ve already explained why skepticism is the most useful tool for separating weak and strong beliefs. Yes, we have to be open minded; but not so open minded that our brains fall out.

    I don’t want to touch on your personal experiences as I don’t think I have the authority to critique them, nor do I want to offend or mock you.

  • Peter

    Matt,
    imo you take the easy way out. Would your brains fall out if you tried to come up with a ooherent idea about WHAT people are experiencing ? You equate 3 billion people able to feel something (fine, I won’t call it energy) if taught in the right way, with you smoking pot and feeling something. Well, how curious are you ? Why do I have to define energy when it is clear that you will claim the definition is false ? You have stated before that because they have subatomic particles down and not named it, it doesn’t exist. I have given yo several leads to research, plus expereinces that go beyond personal, a link to a video and what not. Energy is the common word for the phenomena here. So why don’t YOU give a definition of or even a theory about what we are dealing with here ? If you keep claiming the answer is ‘nothing’ well, then you just don’t want to know apparently. Which is fine, but then there is indeed nothing to discuss.

    I cant help it if many Americans the earth was created 6000 years ago, but what has that to do with understanding WHAT people (perhaps only 3% here believe the earth was created 6000 years ago) have encountered they call an angel?
    What have the 60% or so experienced if not contact with a deceased loved one ? Or are you claiming that 40% of the population does not suffer from wishful thinking in combination with a tendeny to fool themselves and others and 60% has ? Why don’t you ask 50 people you consider rational and find out for yourself instead of baselessly assuming it’s all illusion ?

    I appreciate it that you don’t want to mock me, but what would be mocking about telling me what the meaning is of people knowing things before they happen ? Or are you seriously claiming this has never ever happened in history ? (Joan of Arc had hidden that sword ? She didn’t get wounded as she had predicted ? Just two examples out of millions) In this case, obviously, either me or my mother are lying (OK, it could run in the family and we’re both lying), or my mother did in fact dream about me in a wheelchair the night before I had a caraccident. So what is it ?

    Why do you mock serious research into NDE and out of body experiences by putting it into a haha category ? Somebody seeing their dead dog after being hit with a baseball bat. What has that to do with scientific research ?

    You keep misunderstanding why experience is not proof yet relevant. It doesn’t make any sense to scall out ‘brains fallin gout’ whenever someone points at shared experiences. Or to equate experiences with ridiculous ideas. They are not the same you know, ideas and experiences.

    It is true that to call Vicor so and so a ghostbuster is a sign of bias. But why do you mention that here, and not the clear explaination I gave ?

    Yes, scientists can have personal convictions unrelated to their research. But is that the case with Einstein, Planck, Bose, Bohm and (not sure he’s a Nobelist) Popp ? The answer Matt, is no. It was precisely their insight into the nature of matter and the suggestion of something underlying it all that gave direction to their convictions. In any case, to call these people fringe scientist is absurd.

    As far as I’m concerned, the kind of science you refer to – double blind, repeated, control group, etc – is fine for some areas, but limited. It’s not the science that will ever produce insight into our own nature. It is the cutting edge science that combines chaos theory and quantum physics with human experience that will.

    Read ‘The tipping point’ and then go back to the realtionship between those randomised computers and events happening on the planet. (Which, btw, you never really addressed other than calling it interesting and dismissing the offered theory)

    When will you address my remarks about acupuncture ? How will you explain that you who had never anything to do with it, knows better why it works than all the doctors using it ?

    What Matt, is stopping you from finding our yourself by actually experiencing for yourself ? Are you so scared that your worldview will collapse ?
    There is now way you would believe you are fooling yourself or hallucinating once you can feel energy, sorry, something between your hands. It is easy to learn, fun, and cheap. So why not ? Why not learn to meditate and see what it does to how you see the world ? It is cheap, enhances succes and health, lessens the need for sleep, and clarifies many a mystifying statement in old spiritual books.

    As Zukav said: the scientist of the future will need to look inward as well as outward.

    All the best.

  • Matt Howard

    Peter:

    “What Matt, is stopping you from finding our yourself by actually experiencing for yourself ? Are you so scared that your worldview will collapse ?
    There is now way you would believe you are fooling yourself or hallucinating once you can feel energy, sorry, something between your hands. It is easy to learn, fun, and cheap. So why not ? Why not learn to meditate and see what it does to how you see the world ? It is cheap, enhances succes and health, lessens the need for sleep, and clarifies many a mystifying statement in old spiritual books.”

    Alright. I’ll do that.

    All the best.

  • oouchan

    Interesting debate going on here. Nice comments from both sides.
    It comes down to what you believe and what others believe. I have not experienced any of those but that doesn’t mean that they might not be real to others. So in a sense I don’t know because if they are real or not due to these 2 reasons: They have not been proven and I have no experience with them. This doesn’t mean that I will believe they are real just from what others tell me.

    As a side note about acupuncture…I have an intense fear of needles so that option is out. :D

  • Maggot

    657 Peter: it is totally unscientific to caim that the things neurogenic mentions equal ‘dreams, hallucinations, lucky guesses, and coincidences.’ It goes against common sense and against human experience.

    I never tried to claim these were definitive scientific conclusions. But rather they are just as plausible if not more so than attributing them to “god”. Add placebo, fraud, and outright lies to the mix, and there are plenty of reasonable alternative explanations to consider for these individual anecdotal experiences. The things I mention do happen, on a regular basis, there’s no denying that. So how does it “go against common sense and human experience” to start from a position of skepticism and work from there? The subconscious mind is a mysterious thing, I agree with that. For some things we may never find a definitive explanation, and I am ok with that. Curious as all get out, but still ok with it.

  • Peter

    Maggot,
    Like you I see no reason to attribute a precognitive dream, or a seeming telepathic contact, to God. These things suggest that human beings can tap into information outside of time/space, that’s all.

    And yes, these is fraud, lies, the placebo effect, dreams and hallucinations, lucky guesses and coincidences. And that’s many words. My question is however: from personal experience, how many of the instances where information seems to come to a person in other ways than the normal 3dimensianal way, would you atribute to lies, fraud, etc ?

    I’ll tell you my personal experience. My estimate is that I have met in my life between 50 and 100 people that were supposedly able to see more than most of us, were very intuitive, were called a medium, psychic, clairvoyant, used a pendulum, etc. etc. If I add those that supposedly could heal on an energy level, that would add another 50 or so to the number.
    Of all these people there is one that I felt was not sincere. A fraud, later accused of fondling 14 year old girls. Of the rest, some in my opinion overestimated themselves. Some seemed not aware that they mixed in their own ideas and experiences with what they said they saw in others.
    The vast majority of these people however were quite ordinary, nice, goodhearted people with a sense of humor. While they would acknowledge that they could see or feel or help heal, they would not claim objectivity or 100% succes or to be stating definite truth or anything. Most of them were clearly happy to help others with their gifts.
    Mind you, I’m not talking about the ‘Mr Mubaduh from Kenia, brings back your lover’ kind of therapist here.
    When it comes to mediums, my experience is that most of what they say is quite general, some of it is wrong, some of it is sort of interesting but not surprising, and occasionally something hits the person in case right on the head. Whether this information then comes from a deceased loved one or from the subconsciousness of the person undergoing the session or from a different source alltogether, remains open to debate. Those that would claim that this is all a matter of fraud (which you don’t, I know) simply have no awareness of the reality of these sessions.

    So my point is that people’s collective experience of receiving information through ‘non 3D ways’ – and I’m talking about sincere intelligent skeptical people here- is so great, that to keep talking about ‘individual anecdotal experiences’ just doesn’t address the issue. That’s not starting from a position of skepticism, which I am all for. That’s discussing a world that doesn’t exist.

    The same goes for healings. Sure, for some supposedly miraculous healings there are perfectly ordinary explanations. For some however there aren’t.

    The same goes for apparations. Some of these cases are a matter of an overactive imagination, some of hallucination. Some however are clearly not in those categories. For instance, whether the gils in Garabondal actually saw mother Mary – I’ll not go into the question of what Mary is or was or could be – one may debate. That something totally out of the ordinary happened there, nobody that saw the images of those girls can doubt.

    The same for incorruptable bodies. Some are waxed over bones. Some are not. In some of those cases an ordinary explanation will do. Draft, dry place etc. Then some cases remain that suggest there is in fact a connection between the life of the person that used the body and the phenomena connected with the body after death.

    To me, to ompletely ignore this or to completely believe it all, is sort of the same. Comfortable but not very fruitful.

    OK, bedtime in Holland.

  • Thanks for sharing to others.

  • Maggot

    663 Peter: My question is however: from personal experience, how many of the instances where information seems to come to a person in other ways than the normal 3dimensianal way, would you atribute to lies, fraud, etc ?

    All due respect Peter, that is a faulty question. Better to ask, and in particular of your larger sample size of some 50-100 “very intuitive, mediums, psychics”, etc. you say you have personally come in contact with – how many of those cases passed the muster of serious scientific scrutiny? But I don’t have to ask that question, because I already know the answer: zero.

    The vast majority of these people however were quite ordinary, nice, goodhearted people with a sense of humor.

    Sure, many of these people are no doubt sincere in their beliefs that they have “something special”. I wouldn’t just automatically accuse them of intentionally lying or being maliciously fraudulent. Their character though has no bearing on the provability of their claims.

    While they would acknowledge that they could see or feel or help heal, they would not claim objectivity or 100% succes or to be stating definite truth or anything.

    Show me one that would have anything other than zero percent success under controlled scientific conditions.

    Most of them were clearly happy to help others with their gifts.

    I can understand how seeing other peoples’ joy after telling them something they’d want to hear would make themselves feel happy as well. Again, not saying this “help” was intentionally fraudulent, but is the percentage of correct “hits” anything more than chance? You seemed to say as much yourself when you said: most of what they say is quite general, some of it is wrong, some of it is sort of interesting but not surprising, and occasionally something hits the person in case right on the head.

    “occasionally” = chance. A lucky guess. Perhaps an ability to perceive even the slightest non-verbal queues aids them in taking their subjects down a particular line of discussion, and maybe they don’t even know they are doing it.

    So my point is that people’s collective experience of receiving information through ‘non 3D ways’ – and I’m talking about sincere intelligent skeptical people here- is so great, that to keep talking about ‘individual anecdotal experiences’ just doesn’t address the issue.

    Sure it does. Until there is some concrete scientific analysis that demonstrates otherwise, that’s all they are. Just because there is a “collective lot” of these stories doesn’t make any one of them in particular that much more credible on its own.

  • Hey, do you have facebook account to add?

  • Peter

    Maggot,
    I understand what you say and you say it well. That was the good news. The bad news is that you demonstrate what is the problem here: you have no idea of how these sessions happen, of how intuition works. Or you wouldn’t write like you do.
    Just taking common sense as a basis:

    ‘Until there is some concrete scientific analysis that demonstrates otherwise, that’s all they are.’

    Is that so ? The earth was flat until there was scientific evidence that it is round ?

    ‘ “occasionally” = chance. A lucky guess. ‘

    Wasn’t it George Bush that said that you can fool some people some time, some people all the time but not all the people all the time ? Don’t you think that after some time one would start to wonder ? Or a spouse, friends ?
    How do you (Matt, also a question for you) imagine the Dutch police reasoned, when calling on psychic Gerard Croiset for decades ? ‘Hey let’s call this guy that never helped solve a crime’? Or ‘Hey lets call this guy that ‘lucky guessed’ right several times where we could find the body of the victim’?
    If the collective experience of policeforces globally were that psychics are as much help as the man next door because their score doesn’t top lucky guesses, would they stil be welcoming their help ? How much sense does that make ?

    About scientific proof: see also the discussion on the incorrubtable corpses thread.
    To acquire information through intuition isn’t an on-or-off thing. It’s more like making out vague contours in the fog, or writing poetry. Do you think you could put 10 writers in a lab and tell them to write an inspired poem about Ukranian horses in 20 minutes ? The conclusion of this scientific test would be that these people have no more talent than the average carpenter.
    As I explained on mentioned list, the brainwaves inducive to intuition, alphawaves, won’t easily appear in a test situation.
    Do you believe there is such a thing as love ? Or is that just a myth as long as it hasn’t been proven in double blind tests with control groups ? Ok, let’s test it. One group must love the person they are presented with; the control group must pretend to love that person but is not allowed to actually love him. How meaningful would the results be, do yo think ?

    I’d say it’s possible to measure the amount of rain that comes down in a month in LA. Although of course there is no way of knowing to what extent your intention to measure does influence the amount of rain falling. (That it does influence is a certainty). Now to what extent do you think a test involving people and very subtle processes will be influenced by the situation, the people conducting the experiment, whether they are likeble etc. ? Often to such an extant that the whole test becomes meaningless.
    Myself I can often feel people’s emotions before they even become aware of them, whether live or over the phone doesn’t make any difference. The idea to have this ability tested seems ridiculous to me. The results would be highly doubtful because my being aware of being tested would change the dynamics of the situation completely. (My connection with the other person; concentration, relaxation and sponteneity) It probably wouldn’t work. But more importantly I wouldn’t want to waste my time trying to ‘prove’ something that to me and people that know me is an everyday reality and nothing special.

    Do you think you could prove Einstein was a genius ? Put him in a lab and tell him to think something genialistic ?
    You can’t prove the existence of genius in the world, and yet everybody knows it exist. How ? We’ve seen it; it’s the collective exprience of mankind. Likewise the vast majority of mankind knows there is such a thing as ‘knowing’ without having on obvious source where the knowledge came from.
    Sure, it is possible to claim it’s just a theory. But the same can be said of love, genius, courage, compassion, luck, sense of humor, joy. In short, life.
    I for one find it more fruitful and interesting to try to understand what it is that is obviously there, rather than keep on repeating that it hasn’t been proven by certain methods. Methods that are anyway just an agreement in a certain limited context, and nothing more.

    Last thing. You suggest that information given by mediums or psychics could be infered from subtle indications. Sure. But are you saying that is always the case ? Because if there is only one case in the history of mankind in which this was how it happened, then the argument falls flat. You know about black swans.
    The thing is, as soon as you yourself would be given a spot on description over the phone a couple of times of your own character or of your late grandfathers funny habit, by someone that you never met and lives on a different continent, you would be less interested in tests and more in understanding what is the meaning of this. For that tests are not helpful at all.

    BTW The mediums you see on tv are not the real thing. They usually have a native gift, that often runs in the family. Nothing wrong with that. But the real thing is peolpe that have developped their abilities as a byproduct of their spiritual growth. They will shun publicity and laugh at the idea of being tested.
    When you’re put in your place and told the truth about yourself in one minute by a person that towers over you morally, mentally and spiritually, the last thing you’ll think of is suggesting a test, believe me.

  • neurogenic

    I agree that there are many things that human know exist, but that cannot be proved by the scientific model. Mental imagery is one. We cannot prove that anyone can see images in their minds,especially to the ones who are not able to see imagery, but we all know that it is there. I personally have a photographic memory and can see vivid images in my mind, but i cannot prove to anyone of what i see. You cannot prove meaning either. For example, you cannot prove that a piece of art has any meaning or not.

  • What an inspirational post. It’s great to see some unique content and interesting read for once. There is too much rubbish cycling around on blogs now, so keep up the great work!

  • The *real* unsolved mysteries, of course, are those which will enhance all of our lives; medical mysteries (how to cure, or prevent, diseases now killing millions of people a year); social issues (how to get everyone to get along, to honor each other and each others way of life); psychological issues ( how to identify and treat those who are a danger to themselves or others, no matter how well they wear the mask of sanity)…I could go on an on, but I think I have given everyone a peek at what I consider the true mysteries to be.
    I believe that before we begin to search for the Lock Ness Monster we are obliged, as humans, to search for the answers to the questions I have stated, as well as many more. It’s not time yet for us to be children, with childish fears and childish hobgoblins. It’s time for us to be adults, to fear as adults, and to see the adult hobgoblins as they are, for what they are, and to attack them until they no longer exist.
    Once that is accomplished, we can take the time to be children.

  • Can you provide more information on this? Cheers..

  • Maggot

    667 Peter: Is that so ? The earth was flat until there was scientific evidence that it is round ?

    Yes it was, for all we knew. If I lived back then and some crackpot tried telling me that the earth was round, I would’ve made the same comment: “Until there is some concrete scientific analysis that demonstrates otherwise, it’s flat”. In this case of course, it has been proven otherwise, and my resultant response would’ve been along the lines of “Cool, I accept that proof. Duly noted”. Now, I’m not calling you a crackpot here, but my feeling is the same – I’m going to need some proof before I accept that it’s some sort of special power. Mind you, I’m not here saying that I know factually that this proof will never come, just that I will continue to be skeptical until I see it.

    How do you (Matt, also a question for you) imagine the Dutch police reasoned, when calling on psychic Gerard Croiset for decades ?

    That was some 40-50 years ago. What do you really know about the details of his alleged successes, that you know for certain hasn’t been exaggerated or embellished? Public gullibility was more prevalent back then IMO. He had some well publicized failures as well, and has been discredited in some studies upon closer examination. It’s likely he used the typical tactics of offering up vague or generic ideas or descriptions, extrapolated from known facts of a given case, and/or gave enough alternative reads or interpretations that something was bound to stick. I think it is safe to say that today, most if not all modern police departments do not give much credence to “psychic detectives” or actively seek their advice in ongoing investigations.

    I for one find it more fruitful and interesting to try to understand what it is that is obviously there, rather than keep on repeating that it hasn’t been proven by certain methods.

    Well that’s cool but how can one “try to understand” without employing some means of testing its validity? Again, no disrespect intended here, but you are putting up allot of reasons why you think testing an ability can’t apply, including telling me I “don’t know how it works”, but I’m sorry they just see like excuses to me. If someone claims a “special ability” then let’s test it out. Not to debunk and humiliate the person, but to try and figure out what is really going on. Is it verifiable? Is it repeatable under controlled conditions? Is it falsifiable? It seems you are just satisfied to be awestruck at the wondrous anomaly and leave it at that.

    But the real thing is peolpe that have developped their abilities as a byproduct of their spiritual growth. They will shun publicity and laugh at the idea of being tested.

    Well that’s their right of course, but I think that is kind of arrogant and only breeds more skepticism (to which you’ll probably say they don’t care). Why wouldn’t they want such a seemingly amazing thing to be explored in its fullest, for the purposes of furthering the knowledge of mankind?

  • Maggot, you can sum it all up in a few words.
    “Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.”
    taa-daa

  • Matt Howard

    segue:

    Extraordinary proof doesn’t matter when you can rely on hearsay, personal experience and anecdotes, poorly performed experiments that hint at anomalies but never actually offer concrete evidence and claims that the scientific method is very limited in its uses.

    Special pleading is the hallmark of pseudo-scientists whos claims that fail the scientific method. Homeopaths and all the other pseudo-sciences employ this strategy; “our method works, but you can’t use the scientific method to prove or disprove it because it doesn’t apply!” This is, of course, ridiculous when things like mind-reading, homeopathy, telekinesis, ‘living on sunlight’ and the rest of this stuff is ripe for scientific testing; the practitioners just don’t want to do it because they know they’ll be called out on their bullshit.

    One funny case actually happened here in Australia a few years back. This whackjob who claimed she could live on sunlight and was the foremost authority on ‘Breatharianism’ was put to the test. It was stopped about 5 days in by the overseeing doctor because she was completely dehydrated, slurring her words, her pupils were dilated, she had lost a shitload of weight, she was having heart palpitations and was pretty much near death.

    Every case of this living on sunlight bullcrap is always supported by examples that are basically hearsay and rumor. Vague references to ‘tests conducted years ago’ are always employed as explanations, but the simple fact is that nobody has actually been observed to live on nothing but sunlight for a substantial period of time.

    I’ve pretty much finished my discussions with Peter because he obviously values arguments from authority, anecdotes, personal experiences and pseudo-scientific studies over well tested, falsifiable, peer-reviewed western scientific practices. I’m not having a go at you, Peter, I just don’t think we are ever going agree on anything. Nearly every post you bring out the old ‘can millions and millions of people be wrong’ and ‘energy can’t be tested’ crap. My simple answers are;

    a) Yes, millions and millions of people can be wrong, deluded and/or lying because human beings are fallible and prone to mistakes.
    b) Energy is a load of bullcrap that hasn’t be shown to exist nor has any verifiable evidence been presented to support it.

    As for you’re ‘genius’ argument; of course there are concepts that can’t be proven or unproved simply because they are conceptual! ‘Genius’ isn’t a ‘thing’; it’s a label we put on people who’s insight has been so profound it goes beyond normal human intelligence.

    I keep saying that the things you claim exists CAN be tested by science. You then argue that they can’t, and that the scientific method is limited, THEN you point to someone like van Pimmel who employs the VERY SAME method you deride and claim it’s evidence! You claim that people can’t be put into a lab and told to perform their abilities because they can’t be measured, then you employ arguments by Sheldrake, who conducts stupid experiments like sitting behind studio audiences, staring at them, then when they turn around he bleats “Eureka! I’ve proved the staring effect!!!”

    You have to choose, Peter. You can’t keep saying that the scientific method is limited and can only be applied to things like physics, biology and chemistry and then in the same breath point me to supposed scientific studies that you claim support psychic ability, ‘energy’, mind reading etc etc etc. Which one is it, Peter? Can the things you claim exist be tested by science? Or can they not? If they can’t, QUIT pointing me to people like Sheldrake and Chopra who claim to be able to prove these things using the scientific method.

  • More visitors will come if more interesting and informational topics keep being posted. :)

  • A friend and myself have been arguing about an issue similar to this one! Now I know that I was right. lol! marked you as a fave so i’l; be back :D

  • Miroslav Provod

    Further mysteries about megaliths
    It has been empirically proven that megaliths were built for the purpose of electricity accumulation during the course of their research. Hundreds of thousands of various megaliths placed around the Earth make us think of questions for which we don’t know the answer. The unknown properties of static electricity that are the basic principles of megaliths create a great obstacle not only for their appreciation but also for the progress in other fields. Static electricity is a natural force that is part of all matter. The fact that it’s possible to empirically find some of its yet unknown properties hints us that something has escaped our attention in this area.
    We shouldn’t assess history in view of our knowledge, because it may lead us to wrong conclusions due to lack of information. An example would be language barriers. If dolmens, Logan stones, clay mounds, pyramids and other structures were built across the globe, it has to be explained, how the information needed to built them was transferred across the oceans, but also how the language barriers were solved when it was spread to hundreds of thousands of places across all continents. This can’t be answered. The correct answer is hidden in the yet unknown properties of static electricity. But we may learn from this and direct our thoughts in a way that we can also learn something from the people that were living then.
    It’s easier to understand megalithic structures in connections. On the island Sardinia, many circular structures were built from boulders without malt. These were of many sizes and were called Nuraghas. These were built in the Bronze Age and 7000 have been preserved until present day. Nobody has answered their purpose yet. Another unexplained mystery is 40 000 circular structures in Ireland. All of those have similar architecture, but they differ in their degree of segmentation and therefore by their mass in the same way as Nuraghas on Sardinia. Similar structures are also located on Aran Islands. The greatest of them has an area of a few football pitches. It’s composed of four mounds that are 1.7 meters high and their width is five meters. All the circular structures have a similar sign: they have no windows or battlement and they also don’t have any water sources. There are thousands of spiky stone blocks with sharp edges (suction by a point) between the third and fourth mound, which are about as high as the rampart. In our current view there is no obvious purpose for their construction. Erich von Daniken puts these in connection with the remnants of The Great Zimbabwe and reminds us that we currently know about hundred and fifty similar places. I agree with Mr. Daniken that these structures need to be put in connection. They were built for the purpose of interconnection of the etheric raster, which is conducting and may be used to transfer information.
    Every similar piece of information inspires us towards further new pieces of knowledge.
    It can be deducted from the Tibetan prayer mills, which produce energy by rotation of metal cylinders by friction of two different substances – air with metal, that there aren’t similar energetic sources in high altitudes to the ones in low altitudes.
    In another case the Czech scientists have proved that the region under high voltage wires definitely influences the behavior of animals. Prof. Hynek Burda from Essen says: “If an animal behaves in a different way to its normal behavior under high voltage wires, there must undoubtedly be changes on its brain, cellular and molecular level.”
    Scientists have come with a surprising discovery last year. They found that herds of cattle, deers or roe-deers sleep and eat in such a posture that their bodies are aligned in a north-south orientation. They have now found that the animals loose this ability under high voltage wires. They behave very chaotically and stand in a way that their body is randomly aligned, unlike under normal conditions. As soon as they go away from the high voltage wires – they eat and sleep in a north-south orientation again. “The disturbing effect by the behavior of these animals can be observed up to fifty meters away from the high voltage.”The scientists admit that they are opening a door into space, where they only suspect what may be hidden behind.
    I can add to this new piece of knowledge that similar negative influence of the high voltage may be seen not only by animals but also by drivers. I have been observing an increased occurrence of traffic accidents on a road near my residence. There is a high voltage line, which copies the road on a section that is tens of kilometers long. I’m describing this in other former articles.
    I have noted this critical distance of fifty meters from the high voltage as an important piece of knowledge and I will be checking this up further. According to my research this distance reaches into zones and it probably follows that the zones that are further from the source disperse their energetic value.
    The 3D raster creates charges of static electricity. This can be proved by many experiments, which are described on my web pages. However, this is only a small hint for further research. In order to get on the right track it would be necessary to map and measure zones of the greatest charges on the Earth at first. These are sea currents, great rivers and also further zones of great constant charges.
    It would also be beneficial to find out, which changes in the etheric raster are caused by 1800 thunderstorms that are constantly occurring and by the fact that one hundred lightning strikes discharge every second. Practically, the energy that is released is equal to the energy that would be released in a small nuclear war. There are about three billions of lightning strikes that strike the Earth every year and the number of thunderstorms that occur on the Earth is 16 million per year. I think that if we don’t fill in the gaps of information missing in this part of physics, we won’t be able not only to solve questions of ancient history but also many other present day cases.
    Miroslav Provod
    http://www.miroslavprovod.com

  • neurogenic

    Maggot – “I think it is safe to say that today, most if not all modern police departments do not give much credence to “psychic detectives” or actively seek their advice in ongoing investigations.”

    It was declassified that during the cold war the CIA had a remote viewing spy program where psychics could describe places where there were hidden nukes in Russia from a room somewhere in America. One of the actual psychics was tested on a documentary i saw where they would send people out to different places and he would describe what scenery they were look at. He was always right to.

  • 678. neurogenic :…He was always right to.
    ****
    To what?

  • Matt Howard

    Miroslav:

    Wow. What an incredible breakthrough. Of course, if you’re sitting on such a vast pool of untamed knowledge I’d be interested to see what your peers say about your work. If you could point me to some peer reviewed academic journals that not only publish your work but also support and verify your findings, I’d be most grateful.

  • ibelieve

    To olstar18 (630),

    I have died and was brought back.I sort of know what it feels like. Bad car crach / good experience.

    ps. I just happen to think Peter thinks out of the frame so to speak and not just in the picture at hand.

  • Can you provide more information on this? Cheers..

  • Hi pal. Normally how
    often do you update the blog?
    Any subscription?

  • Frushka

    Does anyone know where I can buy a Shroud of Turin beach towel?

  • The idea is there..;) cheers

  • Gryphaena

    To Matt Howard(674):
    I have been reading yours and Peter’s posts and I wonder what you mean by “Energy is a load of bullcrap that hasn’t been shown to exist nor has any verifiable evidence been presented to support it.”

    A calorie is a unit of energy. If something is measurable it must exist.

    Also, I wonder if it is possible to be objective. If a person wants to be objective, the yearning to be objective is itself a feeling-which is subjective.

  • Matt Howard

    Gryphaena:

    When I talk about ‘energy’ in regards to Peter’s claims I’m not talking about scientific definitions. If you read my previous posts not just on this thread but on other you will see that from day 1 Peter has been advocating the existence of a mystical, mysterious, undefined ‘energy’ that runs through the human body and the whole universe. This is different from kinetic energy, radiant energy etc etc. I’ve been asking Peter to define it.

    He has not defined what he means by ‘energy’. He keeps claiming it exists and pointing me to all sorts of weird and wacky sources, yet he has not, and he still refuses to, actually define what he means and then set about to prove it. That’s why I called it a load of bullcrap.

    Please don’t confuse my dismissal of Peter’s claims about weird, mystical ‘energy’ with a dismissal of energy as defined by science.

    Objectivity and subjectivity when it comes to science and beliefs is a tricky subject. I do think it is an illusion to believe that there can be a totally objective reality. After all, Descartes tackled the problem of knowledge and how we actually know things to be true about 500 years ago. In the end, all can know with absolute certainty is that we exist (cogeto ergo sum). That doesn’t mean that we can’t strive and come extremely close to an objective truth (for example, the acceptance of gravity, air, planets etc etc). Most of the time people simply assert that, as we can’t have a truly objective truth, then anything goes; their theories or beliefs are as valid and scientifically established theories. I don’t subscribe to this and I think that the drive towards an objective truth (even though I accept we can never fully get there) is a valuable quest and is the best possible way to understand reality at this point in time.

  • Peter

    Hi Matt (and friends),

    Well Matt, you say you’re not having a go at me, but in a way you are. Because you misrepresent what I have written, and you attack words that you yourself put in my mouth. Not intentionally, I’m sure, but still.
    Like, I have never claimed that millions of people believing something equals proof. And I have already pointed that out before, so why do you repeat this ? It doesn’t make your case any more credible.

    Like you, I don’t want to repeat the same things over and over. In my opinion it comes down to this: you seem to rely completely on scientific peer reviews and I look at a bigger picture. It puzzles me that you say things like ‘this energy has never been discovered,’ while we know that most of the roughly 200 subatomic particles were not ‘peer reviewed’ and so never discovered until very recently. The notion ‘what we haven’t measured doesn’t exist’ has been proven wrong zillions of times in history. You’ll say that you’re just claiming that the burden of proof is on me, but in reality that is not what you do.
    And with that I come to ‘extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.’ Sounds nice, but what is the extraordinary claim ? That is the question. You for no reason decide that my claims are extraordinary and yours are not. But it is the other way round of course. Taking the example of the earth being flat: what was the extraordinary claim ? The notion that the earth was flat, for which there has never been any proof, or the notion that the earth is round ? A notion for which there have always been indications and that is and was congruent with human experience.
    Human experience is that there is such a thing as precognition. There has never been a shred evidence against it. On the contrary, not only are there countless instances recorded, but it goes against common sense to deny it. There wouldn’t be any stories of precognitive dreams in books like the bible, if humanity had no experience of them. You think writers at the time were less concerned with credibility than now ? That would be a baseless assumption.
    So I come with recorded facts, with common sense, with personal experience and examples, with the experience of humanity, and then you say: there is no such thing as precognition. Now THAT is an extraordinary claim Matt. And what is your extraordinary proof ? ‘It hasn’t been proven in a double blind test.’ Yeah, right. ‘Now this group will dream a precognitive dream tonight and that group will pretend to do so, OK ?’
    It’s fine with me if you have no interest in understanding different states of mind and the effects of them. But why then have opinions about them ? What is the value of that ?
    Without having any experience, you think you know better how acupuncture works than the thousands of often highly qualified practitioners.
    You haven’t ever meditated and you want to lecture someone who meditated 10.000 hours on the relationship between the mind and consciousness.
    You have no knowledge and no experience regarding NDE, and you want to tell a specialist who did research for 6 years and set the standards for global scientific research into the subject, what constitutes a NDE.
    When confronted with data that undeniably show a relationship between mind and matter, confirming human experience, you brush it off as an ‘anomaly.’
    You acknowledge the beneficial effects of yoga, and you call the very basis of it bullcrap.
    You fail to see the significance of a list of nobel laureates in physics, to which I may add John Mater, siding with me.
    In short Matt, you haven’t realised that science has moved on since the fifties, when meaning was considered a backward notion, evolution a matter of flukes, mutations and environment and consciousness a function of matter. Well, these are now not just extraordinary claims, they are simple passé.

    You want to stay where you are and stick with peer reviews for understanding the nature of life ? It’s fine with me but I regret it for your sake. Because I know what you’ll be thinking in 20 years. You also have the choice to step into a fascinating world in which the multilayeredness of life is recognised, experienced and to a small extent understood. Why not use your intelligence and sincerity to take up the challenge of increasing that extent ?

    Lastly: your claim that energy is bullcrap is laughable. My guess is that you’ll realise how laughable it is in the not too distant future. Because the younger generation takes it for granted and the ‘it doesn’t exist’ sayers are simply dying out. Which is the way science prgresses: those that oppose new ideas don’t admit they were wrong; they simply die out.
    Nevertheless I wish you a long and happy life.

  • Peter

    Maggot,

    About the earth being flat: see the above post.

    About Croiset: no disresrect, but you have read a wikipedia entry (edited by professional sceptics it seems), and I have read Croiset’s autobiography, seen him on tv many times, know people that were his clients, and know that the Croiset family, of actors/directors as well as what we call paragnosts, is a well known and respected family. There is no doubt in Holland that Croiset was a sincere and humble man who helped countless individuals and who was himself intrigued by his gift.
    The criticism refered to in wikipedia did concern the man that more or less used Croiset to further his own career, and not Croiset himself. He did have failures, as he had always acknowledged.
    I read on some sceptics website that Croiset claimed succes in a murder case in Japan but that there was no proof of that (hahaha, see?) A video of that case did however exist and show up later.

    About testing: you’re wrong about me, but since you don’t know me I don’t bame you for that. I am for testing and being realistic. In fact, known in my circles for pointing out how all sorts of unproven notions, channeled information and factually wrong ideas are harming the spread of true spirituality (a subjective phrase of course).
    Some things can be tested. The energy in and around the body can and has been proven to exist.
    Other phenomena are more fluid and fickle. Precognition does occur, but one cannot say ‘OK now I’m going to have a precognitive vision.’ Also, what is precognition – as in a gift – and what is intuition ?
    I’m a songwriter, but I cannot force inspiration to come.
    Telepathy same story.
    Astrology, not something I find interesting, can be and has been tested by quantitative methods. And shown to have some validity.
    Let’s say it like this: we live in a 3D world. The mind can only function in 3D and in time. Consciousness is not of time and matter, but it functions in it. There are instances in which we experience in time/matter that which is outside of it. Those instances are hard to grasp, for ourselves in the first place – which is why we often miss them and why if we deliberately pay attention to them we become more aware of them. And they are even harder to test in setting that is by nature of time and matter.
    I gave the example of my mother dreaming about my accident the night before it happened. How can one test these kind of things, that happen all over the globe thousands of times a day ? (going by what I have heard and read in my life)
    The majority of mankind has had contact with a diseased person, they say. How can one test that ?

    About the arrogance of people towering above us morally: hm, isn’t arrogance considered a vice where you live ? So if they are arrogant, they are not towering above us. If they tower above us, obviously it can’t be their arrogance that makes them have no interest in being tested.
    BTW, on rare occasions htere ave been tests. The case of Therese Neumann for instance, who reportedly never ate, was investigated. The conclusion was that indeed she didn’t eat.

  • Matt Howard

    “You want to stay where you are and stick with peer reviews for understanding the nature of life ? It’s fine with me but I regret it for your sake. Because I know what you’ll be thinking in 20 years. You also have the choice to step into a fascinating world in which the multilayeredness of life is recognised, experienced and to a small extent understood. Why not use your intelligence and sincerity to take up the challenge of increasing that extent ?

    Lastly: your claim that energy is bullcrap is laughable. My guess is that you’ll realise how laughable it is in the not too distant future. Because the younger generation takes it for granted and the ‘it doesn’t exist’ sayers are simply dying out. Which is the way science prgresses: those that oppose new ideas don’t admit they were wrong; they simply die out.”

    Condescending and arrogant bullshit not worthy of a response.

    In short, and I’ll keep it short, you seem to think scientific understanding is one aspect of the bigger picture. I claim that scientific understanding IS the picture.

    “So I come with recorded facts, with common sense, with personal experience and examples, with the experience of humanity, and then you say: there is no such thing as precognition. Now THAT is an extraordinary claim Matt. And what is your extraordinary proof ? ‘It hasn’t been proven in a double blind test.’ Yeah, right. ‘Now this group will dream a precognitive dream tonight and that group will pretend to do so, OK ?’”

    1. You haven’t given me any recorded facts, you’ve only asserted them.
    2. Common sense isn’t proof.
    3. Neither is personal experience and examples of other peoples experiences.

    What can’t you understand about my position? I didn’t, nor would I EVER, say that something 100% doesn’t exist and in no way will it exist in the future. My position, and I’ll make it VERY clear, is this:

    You claim these things exist. I say I don’t believe that they do, and until sufficient evidence is shown to me I will continue to reject those claims.

    We then get into the murkiness of what constitutes proof, what is considered scientific, which claims can be proven scientifically and which can’t. All I will say is that until there is a scientific consensus on all these strange, and frankly nonsensical, ramblings that you keep asserting I WON’T believe in them.

    “About Croiset: no disresrect, but you have read a wikipedia entry (edited by professional sceptics it seems), and I have read Croiset’s autobiography, seen him on tv many times, know people that were his clients, and know that the Croiset family, of actors/directors as well as what we call paragnosts, is a well known and respected family.”

    HAHAHAHA. I know this is in regards to Maggot, but come on! You’re claiming his source is weak, and then YOU’RE going “well I read something written by him so it MUST be true, plus I know his family!” HAHAHA! Oh, my mistake Peter, you saw him on T.V! It must be the truth! I saw freaking Uri Gellar on T.V the other night bending spoons. Guess it’s true. See, there’s times Peter when you kind of make sense and point to semi-reliable sources. Then you come out with utter, UTTER bullshit like this. I’m not even going to go into the absolutely asinine claim that people can survive without eating. What a load of unmitigated shit.

    You claim you have science on your side, but in reality (and I think you know this deep down), science is NOT on your side. If all your claims were true, they would have applications in government and industry and they would be being taught to school-children around the world. Psychic powers and telekinesis would be exploited by the military in a second. Government would be basing infrastructure and medicine around them. There would be profitable enterprises that fund themselves and lead to new and exiting fields of research based on your claims. BOOM. The food crisis would be over because people wouldn’t have to friggin’ eat! No one would have any secrets, as people would be able to read minds. There would be no more disasters or accidents because people would have already seen them happen in the future and acted. There would be no more lottery because EVERY psychic would be cashing in. You’re simply living in a fantasy world; you’re totally convinced that these things exist because you’ve bought into this new age rubbish and now you’re desperately clinging onto supposed pseudo-scientific proofs while vehemently rejecting the VAST majority of the scientific establishment because it clashes with your beliefs.

    Instead of your supposedly true phenomena being used by humanity, they are paraded around at new-age festivals to lure in the gullible and con them out of some hard-earned dollars.

    Catch ya round.

    PS…You STILL DIDN’T DEFINE ‘ENERGY’! Come on!

  • Peter

    Matt,
    you become loud and use strong words and laugh, but you’re not saying much, imho. What I find disappointing is that you seem to deliberately misrepresent my words. I have never done that, and I thought you were above that.

    – Joan of Arc’s predictions are recorded facts.
    – ‘scientific understanding IS the picture.’
    Well, the picture of what ? Of the current state of scientific undertanding, I guess. Since science is all the time changing / progressing, it follows that there has been a bigger picture all the time. Of course it is theoretically possible that right at this moment in history science has stoped progressing, but it’s not very likely. So, I find this remark meaningless.
    – about Croiset: here you are deliberately misquoting, misrepresenting and misinterpreting. Or you are simply stupid, which I don’t believe.
    It’s funny by hte way that you mock the idea of something seen on tv being relevant. Since your conviction that living without eating is impossible and all who claim to do so frauds, is based on your seeing one failed experiment on tv.
    – HRM, the person that was in Holland recently, gave talks for both the lay public and a group of psychologists. The person hosting him, a respected psychologist, testified that hte man had not eaten at all, slept very little and drunk very little i four days. Of course it’s possible he had hidden sandwiches in his suitcase. He’s a former busisnessman, travels the world giving talks taking no money and by all accounts a modest, intelligent and pleasant person.
    Of xcourse this is all total bullshipt becasue man cannot live without food and the catholic saint Therese Neumann and Indian mother of 2 in a remote village never coming into the outside world Giri Bala must have been frauds. Because Matt has seen a failed experiment on tv.
    – you have either not read the things I have written or not thought about them or not undersotood them. Or you wouldn’t have concluded that the gouvernment would use it etc.
    BTW: the military has seen reason to try to use PSI. Energy healing is used in state hospitals. It is part of the official curriculum of the college for high level nursing.
    – Five nobel laureates in physics sids with me, as I have stated several times and as I can back up.
    – You haven’t ever been to a new age festival and you don’t know what you’re talking about. There is a certain demograph that likes to discredit pretty much everything they don’t undertstand and don’t have knowledge of or experience with by labelling it ‘new age’. I find that pathetic. FYO: I give workshops meditation, yoga and energywork at one of the biggest popfestials in Europe. I get everything, from heavvy metalfans to Damien Rice fans, more than 500 in a weekend. And 90% of them get it, respect it, learn from it and enjoy it. We call it energy and we don’t define it (hey I was willing to call it ‘something’) but nobody doubts, it because it’s there and real and obvious to everyone.
    Gullible new age fools ? Sorry Matt, I don’t believe it’s me that lives in a fantasy world.

  • Gryphaena

    Thank you for replying, Matt Howard.

    I don’t know if you or Peter read Harry Potter but you two slightly remind me of Hermione and Luna Lovegood.

    I mean no insult.

    Where did you read about Therese Neumann, Peter? Who investigated her? How long was she observed? Did she know she was observed? Could she have been sneaking food on the sly?

    I have just read about her on Wikipedia and if it is all true, she was an extraordinary person.

  • Peter

    Gryphaena,
    I haven’t read Harry Potter (I don’t believe in that magic stuff :) ) so no worries about me feeling offended.

    About Therese Neumann: you can safely assume that any person declared a saint by the catholic church after say 1800, was an extraordinary person. Whether that means ‘surely in heaven’ is another matter of course, but the devil’s advocate role is taken very seriously for sure.
    Here you can fid a picture of Therese in her weekly extasy, blood flowing from her eyes and wounds as she is supposedly experiencing Jesus’ suffering. http://eigentijdsmagazine.nl/brink/164-doorhalen-wat-niet-verlangd-wordt
    Here you can find a fascinating account of an Indian/American spiritual teacher’s visit with her in 1935:
    http://www.ananda.org/inspiration/books/ay/39.html
    The notes give book titles also.
    Draw your own conclusions.
    One thing I will say is that pure hearted, unconditionally loving people do exist and have existed in all cultures and religions. To throw them in with the Uri Gellers and phony tv preachers of this world, is to miss the point completely.

  • Matt Howard

    “Well, the picture of what ? Of the current state of scientific undertanding, I guess. Since science is all the time changing / progressing, it follows that there has been a bigger picture all the time.”

    The picture of the universe as we know it at this point in time. I didn’t say that it was static and unchanging. You put words in my mouth.

    “about Croiset: here you are deliberately misquoting, misrepresenting and misinterpreting. Or you are simply stupid, which I don’t believe.”

    No, I’m not misquoting. You attacked Maggot for using Wikipedia (because, apparently, it’s full of the naughty skeptics!) and then you offered YOUR proof of his validity by saying you saw him on T.V and know his family. Wow.

    “Since your conviction that living without eating is impossible and all who claim to do so frauds, is based on your seeing one failed experiment on tv.”

    …No. It’s based on the current scientific understanding of human biology and the fact that people have to friggin’ eat to survive. I’m not going to debate this stupid point with you. It’s ridiculous and I don’t really care if millions of people believe it.

    “Energy healing is used in state hospitals. It is part of the official curriculum of the college for high level nursing.”

    Not any I’ve heard of, and if I went into a hospital with cancer and someone tried that crap on me, I’d be suing the state for malpractice. Furthermore, I’ve never seen it being taught at any institute of higher learning here is Australia. It may be the case in the Netherlands, but that’s outside my scope of understanding as I don’t live there.

    “HRM, the person that was in Holland recently, gave talks for both the lay public and a group of psychologists. The person hosting him, a respected psychologist, testified that hte man had not eaten at all, slept very little and drunk very little i four days. Of course it’s possible he had hidden sandwiches in his suitcase. He’s a former busisnessman, travels the world giving talks taking no money and by all accounts a modest, intelligent and pleasant person.
    Of xcourse this is all total bullshipt becasue man cannot live without food and the catholic saint Therese Neumann and Indian mother of 2 in a remote village never coming into the outside world Giri Bala must have been frauds.’

    Wow. A psychologist said he hadn’t eaten. That must be proof. And seriously, Peter, if you take the claims of remote village people in India who basically live their lives based on ancient superstition that has been proven to be exploited by ‘holy men’ and witch doctors for profit, then I feel sorry for you.

    “Five nobel laureates in physics sids with me, as I have stated several times and as I can back up.”

    I don’t care how many Nobel laureates agree with you, if the METHOD which the scientific establishment uses is not being applied, then it’s near worthless. I respond to evidence and methodology, not na na na boo boo, lots of people believe it.

    “You haven’t ever been to a new age festival and you don’t know what you’re talking about. ”

    Yes, I have. It was a complete waste of time. As soon as I had one women tell me the reason I couldn’t sleep properly was because my guardian angels weren’t happy, and offered to sell me a book for $50.00, I left.

    “I give workshops meditation, yoga and energywork at one of the biggest popfestials in Europe. I get everything, from heavvy metalfans to Damien Rice fans, more than 500 in a weekend. And 90% of them get it, respect it, learn from it and enjoy it.”

    Ahhh, again with the argument from authority. Why can’t you understand what I’m saying? I don’t care if EVERY person in the world believes this stuff, I respond to evidence and the scientific method. I’ve already been over why I don’t accept personal experience and anecdotes as evidence because human beings and their senses are FALLIBLE.

    “We call it energy and we don’t define it (hey I was willing to call it ’something’) but nobody doubts, it because it’s there and real and obvious to everyone.’

    Thanks for admitting the concept of ‘energy’ is worthless. If you can’t even define in any useful way the concept you’re trying to prove, and your only line of defense is “well, me and lots of other people can feel it”, you’ve lost.

    I’m open to the possibility that this stuff MAY be true. If the evidence supports it, I’ll accept it. If the scientific establishment forms a consensus based on repeatable experiments, I’ll accept it. YOU, on the other hand, will not even ENTERTAIN the idea that you could be wrong. I realize I could be wrong, but I’d rather live my life not believing in things until I’m provided with evidence, and then spending some time eating humble pie, than slavishly accepting claims just because they sound attractive or because lots of other people believe them. That’s why you live in a fantasy world, not me.

  • Peter

    Matt,

    1 The subjects on these lists are here BECAUSE there is no proof of how they came about. According to you that means there is no point in discussing them, so what are you doing here ?

    2 I am aware of what is considered proof by scientific methods, as you could have observed. I never presented anything as proof, I merely did the best one can do in the absence of it. Every time you pointed out to me ‘that is not proof’ you were missing the point.

    3 Also in the case of Croiset I never called my exposure to him proof; I merely pointed out that I know a lot more about him than peolpe that only read wikipedia.

    4 Yes, I have noticed a tendency on sceptics’ part to suggest …. (fraud; illusion; lack of knowledge etc.) rather than present facts. In the case of sungazer HRM I read the wikipedia entry and the report it criticised, and noticed how whoever wrote that wikipedia text tried to make something out of nothing.

    5 ‘the claims of remote village people in India who basically live their lives based on ancient superstition that has been proven to be exploited by ‘holy men’ and witch doctors for profit,’
    At the time the vast majority of Indians lived in villages. Apparently you consider it impossible that some of those peole could be superior to you in intelligence, knowledge and moral level.
    Let me guess: you’re male and you’re white and Anglosaxon, right ?

    6 You think you’re thinking in a scientific way but you’re not. They shouldn’t try ‘that crap’ on you in a hospital. Becasue you don’t believe in it. The reason they have grudgingly started to use energy healing i hospitals is because they couldn’t deny any longer that it works. Which is the only relevant question here.
    In Sweden doctors are now allowed to use devices for diagnosis that are based in vibrational principals.

    7 We can safely assume that nobel laureates used correct scientific methods. Their work has led them to the conviction that consciousness is fundamental and matter a function of it. I can’t see how this can be an agument against my worldview.

    8 No I don’t need proof of the existence of energy. And since you’re not interested in anything other than peer reviews and consider human experience, common sense, understanding symbolism and references irrelevant in trying to understand the world, or in ay case have no interest in discussing them, why don’t we leave it at this ? You wait for the scientific evidence before you enjoy the experience and insights and I do it the other way round. No problem with that.

    This is my last post to you Matt. I wish you all the best.

  • Matt Howard

    1. Skeptics have a right to discuss things they think are bogus when people keep asserting that they are true.

    2. Fair enough. As long as you admit you don’t have proof.

    3. Doesn’t matter if you married him, it doesn’t have any impact on the veracity of his claims.

    4. Not discussing sungazing bullshit.

    5. I’m actually 3/4 white and 1/4 Indian on my fathers side. I fail to see what race has to do with anything. I’m not superior in intelligence, knowledge and morals. I am superior in the sense that I have access to western science and other forms of information access (such as the internet), which helps inform my decisions.

    6. Good for Sweden. I can’t comment as I don’t know about the Swedish medical system. All I know is that there is no cases of state-run hospitals in Australia using this stuff and I’m glad of that. Give me clinically trialled, peer-reviewed and thoroughly tested medical treatments over mystical nonsense any day. I don’t have a problem with vibrational therapy, however I don’t believe it’s mystical either.

    7. Agreed. However there is still not a scientific consensus on consciousness being independent of the mind. Quite the opposite.

    8. You don’t need proof. Fair enough. I do, and I’m not going to let my ‘gut instinct’ and personal feeling influence my beliefs. I don’t consider human experience irrelevant. I only consider it irrelevant in regards to certain criteria.

    That’s my last post to you, Peter. Enjoy your new age mystical stuff. All the best.

  • Very helpful! Look forward to reading more ;)

  • Maggot

    Hmm I missed the past couple of days of dialog on this list until just now or I would’ve replied sooner Peter, but I just want to say for the record: I know enough about the ways of these kind of debates to not base an opinion or position on “just reading a Wiki article”, as its credibility is always the first and easiest thing to rebut. So it’s not surprising that you took that approach. But really what’s the point of citing other sources or examples when you’ll just say they were written by skeptics? Just as when I questioned the validity and accuracy of any so-called “documentation” of Croiset’s alleged successes, you counter with “there’s no doubt he helped countless people”. So, I don’t really have much more to add to yours and Matt’s discussion (that appears to have ended on its own anyway) because I would only be echoing what Matt has already said – to paraphrase: cut the hyperbole and just produce proof (I realize the definition of “proof” is one of the bones of contention). Likewise, he echoed what I’d said – until there’s proof, I’ll be skeptical. Saying things to the effect that the proof is there but we just can’t comprehend it because it’s in this quasi 4th dimension is clever because it prevents a counter argument, but it’s just another “extraordinary claim” based on anecdotal evidence. Hence, a stalemate. But I mean really Peter, you kind of lost me there when you started to say that Astrology “has some validity”.

  • Peter

    Maggot,
    I must have lost you before the astrology, because I didn’t say astrology has some validity. I said I’m not interested in the subject but there are statistical studies that suggest it has some validity. In fact for the magazine I work for I turned down a study from an unsuspected source that sceptics are having a very hard time with here.
    About Croiset: I didn’t mean he helped countless people with his psychic activity solving murders, but in his practise treating people. I have no proof of that, just the testimony of this Dutchman that he was well known and well liked, and that there were countless testimonies around of people helped, with no opposition from our friends the sceptics.
    Talking about whom: I have nothing against sceptics per se; I just notice that quite often they are very biased and very uninterested in coming into actual contact with the things they write about.
    Yes, I guess a stalemate. I cannot prove certain things that are experienced by humanity and other people want proof of what they don’t understand because they have no experience.
    I can live with that and hope I have inspired a few people to investigate for themselves.
    All the best.

  • Peter

    PS Maggot,
    Forgotten. It seems rahter unfair to state that I refer to some vague 4th dimension to escape serious debate. I have in my posts refered to serious research and to top scientists, and have explained why certain phenomena are not verifiable by methods that are fine for other claims. People that think psychics have an on and off button for telepahy and precognition, simply have no clue what they talk about. It’s hard to argue with them.
    It’s fine if you want to throw me in with the Uro Gellers or spacecases of this world, or like Matt insist on calling me new age, which would make quite a few people smile in Holland. My guess is that won’t convince the observant reader.

  • Thanks for the information, its very helpful.

  • More visitors will come if more interesting and informational topics keep being posted. :)

  • Maggot

    703 Praveen: I found the following link helpful…

    I’m curious to know why you think shameless self-promotion of total bs would be even remotely helpful.

  • Matt Howard

    Maggot:

    How do you know it’s BS? It’s on the internet, and loads of people have experienced it, and, like, there’s loads of stories about it, and I FEEL it, and like, there some sciency stuff written about it, and, like, millions and millions of people over the years have, like, FELT some stuff…It’s not BS!

    :)

  • latfat

    Another mystery is Paris Hilton. How the hell is she frickin famous?

  • Matt Howard

    Latfat:

    Money, blonde hair and a sex tape. Western culture is grand, isn’t it?

  • Peter

    704
    Pretty small Matt. You must be wondering deep down if you’re not missing something important.

  • Matt Howard

    Peter,

    Chill, it was just a joke. At the moment I’m missing a freakin’ rubber foot for my iBook and it’s driving me crazy.

  • Maggot

    Matt, Peter: interesting that Praveen’s comment got pulled. Now I feel like I’m really missing something.

  • Matt Howard

    I checked it out before it got pulled. Absolute load of pseudo-scientific BS along the lines of Deepak Chopra and Rupert Sheldrake. I wish Listverse had have left it up actually as I could have had a good time de-bunking it. :D

  • Peter

    708
    OK Matt, ignore the first sentence of 707 then. :)

  • Matt Howard

    Will do, Peter. :D By the way, I found the rubber foot…just need to find 3 more. :(

  • Maggot

    710 Matt: I checked it out before it got pulled.

    You might be able to dig thru your history file and find it again, unless your browser settings clear them when you log out. Just a thought…lol, wouldn’t want you to miss out. :-)

  • Matt Howard

    Maggot:

    Nah my history is clean…it automatically erases everything once I log out…because…it’s good for the hard drive. :P

  • Yup! Comments encourage people to write even more. They are like psychic wages that inspire you. On the other hand, they also offer constructive criticism by which you can improve.

  • Nice list!!! I’ve known about almost half of these. I didnt know bout the rest. I feel enlightened….hehe :)

  • djbon

    National Geographic has done an episode on the shroud. (Secrets of the Shroud). AND YES it has been REPLICATED!… quite accurately using medieval early photographic technology. In brief: a full scale sculpture was made and placed in front of the linen. and the sun burned the image on the linen which was applied with chemicals. It was not painted. Da Vinci is a potential creator. The Shroud of Turin is made of 2 or 3 of these procedures, the head was done separately. Please watch the documentry!!! this site might help .. http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2007/07/shroud-news-july-2007.html

    gr8 list!!

  • jason

    some of this shit is not even very cool.like the unsolved murders.who cares theres shit like that all the time.

  • MissMoose

    As for the Shroud of Turin and some mysteries, it is impossible to come to a solid conclusion, unless you were there at the moment it was created. No matter how much research is done there will always be some doubt about research methods and so on.

  • Vinay Limbare

    Thanks a lot for the articles.
    Its interesting as well as Scary.

  • MySpace Proxy

    I’m gonna pass this one along to my friend – she’s gonna realy like this one – thanks again!

  • kenab

    These were weird nice list though

  • Pingback: Top 10 Most Popular Lists Ever - Listverse()

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  • Red100

    I just wanted to say something about “The Jack the Ripper Note”. while I was reading it I notice that he said he was going to commit suicide… or at least it sound like he was going to kill himself. It looked/went something like this “15 murders must be completed then I kill myself to cheat the scaffold”. I’m not sure If thats exactly what it says but, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a suicide note and the police had it all along and didn’t notice.I’m just saying. Oh and great list and awesome site. I’m hooked.

  • I really liked your blog! Nice and Informative..

  • Thanks for sharing informations.Looking forward to more stuff.

  • I appreciate when people enjoy sharing knowledge .Thanks for informations

  • anonymous

    @Vani (237): where can i see those depictions of Christ might have really looked like?

  • Brooke

    The black dahlia has been resolved for the rest great article!

  • Jay Poe

    @Brooke (728): Black Dahlia has been resolved? I don’t think so. Where did you read that?

  • jesus christ …….

    hello all my son’s and daughter’s…..your immense n blind faith in me has ultimately forced me to come back to the holy mother earth and tell you the ULTIMATE TRUTH !!!! i m jesus myself,yes brothers n sisters i m THE REAL GOD,REAL JESUS CHRIST AND I DECLARE TODAY THAT SHROUD OF TURIN IS TRUEEEEE,YES ITS AS TRUE AND REAL AS YOU AND ME…..i know some of you wont believe my statement and that i m the real christ but then that wont change this ultimate truth……
    may i bless you all my sons n daughters

  • ibelieveSA

    730 (JC)
    How can you use the Lords name so freely. Please find a new name. With all respect. Maybe then your comments will be taken in seriously. Grow up!

  • NINA

    i really need the 5 mysteries of the world for this project i’m doing and for a fact i know these aren’t one of them. so please some one right back really whats the 5 mystery’s of the woeld and i know that one of the 3 are the burmuda triange the nazca lines ans the crop circle i just need 2 more please and hopefully can a smart person tell me the last 2 answers

    peace!

  • NINAGOMES11

    btw like your list intresting.

  • I really liked your blog! Good job.

  • quinzo

    don’t you know that i am the one who killed john F. kennedy? hahahahahahaha fuck you///!!!!!!!

  • quinzo

    ohhwwww sorry… its my cousin who is insane donald cabilin

  • quinzo

    and lowell Quezon

  • emyboo

    I`m only 10 and i know EVERYTHING about the bermuda triangle it`s SO easy!!!!!!!!!!DUH!

  • I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I find your Blog very informative just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to visiting your site more often in the future.

  • emyboo

    @Mark Goeer-Tarant (739):
    do you think you know anything about the mysteries?write back!!

  • chinthaka

    Angee,your brain is the greatest mystery.

  • Miguel Dias

    o study cinema but i not very good Some good director should make a filme about the zodiac killer

  • mark

    Actually the bible is the only place that makes reference to Jesus. This is surprising, because the Romans kept quite detailed records. It´s really just a question of faith i suppose. If you´re really interested, investigate the life of Dionysis, and you´ll see that the life and death of Jesus are the same. Perhaps the Jews just copied it from other, older cultures, as they did all the other bible stories.

  • mark

    There already is a film about the Zodiac Killer, and its quite good

  • mark

    There already is a film about the zodiac killer.

  • Miguel Dias

    ok thanks for information Mark where i can find more information about the filme?

  • Peter

    For the non believers in energy:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8iCIYx1CYc&feature=related

    Of course theoretically this man in a remote village could have wires built in under his skin, so as to fool the visitors from the west that come around every 10 or 15 years. And so it’s not proof.
    Without claiming I could: no one that has meditated long will be really surprised that he can do this.

  • After reading..i went searching for information..heres what i got

    New Information: A team of nine scientists at the Los Alamos National Laboratory has confirmed that the carbon dating of the Shroud of Turin is wrong. See the Fact Check and Carbon Dating Tabs at Shroud of Turin Blog. Also see Biggest Mistake in Carbon Dating

    ——————————————————————————–

    I must admit, with some embarrassment, that until a few years ago I knew nothing about the Shroud of Turin. And when I first did read about it, while on a flight to Miami, I laughed out loud, something I rarely do alone in the company of strangers.

    How ridiculous, I remember thinking. How can anyone think the Shroud of Turin is real: the actual burial shroud of Jesus? The fact that the Shroud of Turin has an image on it, believed to be a picture of Christ, made it seem beyond preposterous.

    Essay at: God, Christ: Questions & Faith

    I was reading Desire of the Everlasting Hills, Thomas Cahill’s book about the apostolic era. Having enjoyed Cahill’s previous best seller, The Gifts of the Jews, I thought I would enjoy his newest book. And I was enjoying it. Suddenly, with no logical reason that I could see, Cahill introduced the Shroud of Turin. It might have been a treasure of the early church, he thought. That is when I laughed — out loud.

    I remember being surprised that I knew so little about the Shroud of Turin. Then in my mid-fifties, I had always been an avid reader of history, particularly early church history. I could not recall ever reading anything about the Shroud of Turin. It was so far from being something I cared about that I never paid it any attention. Thus, when in 1979, Walter McCrone, a world renowned forensic microscopist, claimed that he found paint on a few Shroud fibers, I didn’t notice the story. McCrone, having noted that the shroud had suddenly appeared in 1356 in the hands of a French knight who would not say where it came from and that a local bishop soon thereafter claimed that an artist “cunningly painted” it, declared it a painted fake. Had I noticed the story in 1979, I would have certainly accepted his conclusion. It would have made sense to me.

    A decade later, when three radiocarbon dating laboratories, using carbon 14 dating, supposedly proved the Shroud of Turin was medieval, I didn’t notice. Had I, I would have certainly accepted the conclusion. I trust science. I did then, and more than ever, I do now.

    Moreover, I am naturally skeptical about any relic with a historical footprint in medieval Europe. The year 1356 was a time of unbridled superstition in demons, witches, magic, and miracle-working relics. It was a time of frequent famine and the Black Death plague. It was a time of extreme economic and political turbulence and of war. The same year that the Shroud was first displayed publicly in the small French village of Lirey, nearby, at the battle of Poitiers, England’s Black Prince defeated the French and captured King John II. Adding to the political turmoil, the Pope was in Avignon, not Rome. Indicative of the thinking in this age, some believed that the plague was God’s retribution on the whole world because the Pope was not in the eternal city. In this climate of superstition, naiveté and disorder a lucrative market in false relics flourished. And though the Fourth Lateran Council, in 1215, acknowledged the problem, church authorities did little to curb the market in them. Our knowledge of this time in history rightly conditions us to be suspicious of any relic that might appear in Europe at this time. But I had not noticed its history, either. In metaphoric parlance, the Shroud of Turin was never a blip on my radar screen. And it would have likely remained that way were it not for a single enigmatic fact that Cahill mentioned: the picture on the Shroud of Turin was a negative.

    I knew something about the subject of negatives. But rather than marveling at this fact, I doubted it. I was so convinced that the Shroud of Turin was a fake that I doubted the images were negatives. I had to see for myself.

    I was certain that no artist, no craftsman, no faker of relics, could possibly paint a negative of a human face. To do so is like trying to write your signature upside down and backwards. Our minds are programmed for the way we see things in the world; a world where black is black and white is white. It is relatively easy, with talent and training, to paint a picture of what we see in the world. And an artist, if he is imaginative, like Picasso, can alter that perception in stylistic ways. But the one thing he can not easily do is to perfectly reverse black and white and all the darker and lighter shades of grey while painting a face.

    But imagine, for just a moment, that he could. How would he know he had done it correctly without technology to test his results? A more profound questions is why? In an age so undemanding as the medieval, when any sliver of wood could pass as a piece of the “true cross” and any bramble as a piece of the “crown of thorns,” why bother?

    Photographic film, invented less than 200 years ago, creates good negative images. And because that is so, it was finally discovered that the shroud image was a negative when it was first photographed in 1898. Along with new scientific-quality photographs, taken in 1978 and again in 2002, extraordinary details were noticed: contusions and anatomical detail only a modern pathologist could understand. Our minds don’t easily see details in negatives. It is beyond preposterous to think that the Shroud of Turin was painted.

    Because the picture was a negative, some have speculated that the Shroud of Turin might be a medieval proto-photograph; an invention, if you believe it, that was used only once for a single fourteen-foot long fraud, and never mentioned or used again until it was reinvented in an age of science. Such speculation is moot. Scientific data conclusively proves that it is not a photograph.

    So entrenched was my skepticism, it would take me a year to change my mind about the Shroud of Turin. I learned that McCrone’s identification of paint was a subjective judgment. More sensitive tests, some undertaken at the National Science Foundation Mass Spectrometry Center of Excellence at the University of Nebraska, proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, McCrone was wrong.

    Starting in 2003, new evidence began to appear in secular, peer-reviewed, scientific journals that supported the Shroud of Turin’s authenticity. From these journals we learn that the outermost fibers of the cloth are coated with a layer of starch fractions and various saccharides. In places, the coating has turned into a caramel-like substance, thus forming the images. This suggests a chemical reaction took place. We learn, also, of a faint second image of the face on the backside of the cloth. The second face supports the idea of a chemical reaction and adds more proof that the image is not a work of art or a photograph. And in 2005, we learned that the carbon 14 dating was flawed. In fact we learned that the cloth could very well be 2000 years old.

    History and the Shroud of Turin
    As science moved forward, new historical information was coming to light. Indeed, there is evidence that the cloth, now called the Shroud of Turin, really was a treasure of the early church; not the Pauline communities with which we are so familiar, but the Church in the East. Edessa, in the Fertile Crescent of the upper Mesopotamia, between the Tigris and the Euphrates, was a major city on the Silk Road and undoubtedly one of the earliest Christian communities. If you traveled from Jerusalem to Antioch, you were two thirds of the way to Edessa. Turn left to go to Tarsus, turn right for Edessa. There is some evidence and a strong tradition that Thomas and Thaddeus Jude (Thaddeus of the 70, Thaddeus of Edessa) went to Edessa as early as 33 CE. There is a legend that they carried with them a cloth bearing an image of Jesus. In 544 CE, a cloth, with an image believed to be Jesus, was found above one of Edessa’s gates in the walls of the city, a cloth that Gregory Referendarius of Constantinople would later describe with a full length image and bloodstains. There is strong evidence that the Edessa cloth is in fact the Shroud of Turin. Numerous writings, drawings, icons, pollen spores and limestone dust attest to this.

    How curious these poetic words from the apocryphal Thomasine literature of Edessa seem. They are from the “Hymn of the Pearl,” a poem arguably as old as the first half of the first century. As a figure of speech, Jesus, in the poem, is musing in the first person:

    But all in the moment I faced it / This robe seemed to me like a mirror,
    And in it I saw my whole self / Moreover I faced myself facing into it.
    For we were two together divided / Yet in one we stood in one likeness.

    These words resonate with the two head-to-head images we see seemingly reflected on the Shroud of Turin: like a mirror . . . my whole self . . . faced myself facing into it . . . we were two together divided . . . stood in one likeness.

    Carbon 14 and the Shroud of Turin
    The big issue was always the carbon 14 dating that seemed to show that the Shroud of Turin was medieval. Researchers, who were not experts in radiocarbon dating, but nonetheless convinced the Shroud of Turin was authentic, tried to explain why the scientific dating was incorrect. These explanations – one was that a fire in 1532 changed the age of the Shroud, another was that a bioplastic-polymer growing on the Shroud contaminated the sample – lacked scientific credibility. Scientists, who were experts in radiocarbon dating, rejected these explanations.

    Read: Biggest Radiocarbon Dating Mistake Ever

    Photomicrograph of fibers from warp segment of carbon 14 sample. It is chemically unlike the rest of the shroud. That is a problem.

    In January, 2005, things changed. An article appeared in a peer-reviewed scientific journal Thermochimica Acta, which proved that the carbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin was flawed because the sample used was invalid. Moreover, this article, by Raymond N. Rogers, a well-published chemist and a Fellow of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, explained why the Shroud of Turin was much older. The Shroud of Turin was at least twice as old as the radiocarbon date, and possibly 2000 years old.

    Peer-reviewed scientific journals are important. It is the way scientists normally report scientific findings and theories. Articles submitted to such journals are carefully reviewed for adherence to scientific methods and the absence of speculation and polemics. Reviews are often anonymous. Facts are checked and formulas are examined. The review procedure sometimes takes months to complete, as it did for Rogers.

    It was Nature, another prestigious peer-reviewed journal, that in 1989, reported that carbon 14 dating ‘proved’ the shroud was a hoax. Rogers found no fault with the article in Nature. Nor did he find fault with the quality of the carbon 14 dating. He defended it. What Rogers found was that the carbon 14 sample was taken from a mended area of the Shroud that contained significant amounts of newer material. This was not the fault of the radiocarbon laboratories. But it did show that the carbon dating was invalid.

    Immediately after the publication of Rogers’ paper, Nature published a commentary by scientist-journalist Philip Ball. “Attempts to date the Turin Shroud are a great game,” he wrote, “but don’t imagine that they will convince anyone . . . The scientific study of the Turin Shroud is like a microcosm of the scientific search for God: it does more to inflame any debate than settle it.” Later in his commentary Ball added, “And yet, the shroud is a remarkable artefact, one of the few religious relics to have a justifiably mythical status. It is simply not known how the ghostly image of a serene, bearded man was made.”

    Yellow dye can be seen from spliced thread. Newer material was dyed with alizarin from madder root to match age-yellowed older thread.

    Ball, who understood the chemistry of the Shroud of Turin images, rejected a notion popularized by conspiracy theorists that Leonardo da Vinci created the Shroud’s image using primitive photography. He called the idea flaky. He also debunked the sometimes reported speculation that the image was “burned into the cloth by some kind of release of nuclear energy” from Jesus’ body. This he said was wild.

    Almost all serious Shroud of Turin researchers agree with Ball on these points. When flaky and wild ideas appear in newspaper articles or on television, as they often do, scientists cringe. Rogers referred to those who held such views as being part of the “lunatic fringe” of Shroud research. But Rogers was just as critical of those who, without the benefit of solid science, declared the Shroud of Turin a fake. They, too, were part of the lunatic fringe.

    The idea that the Shroud of Turin had been mended in the area from which the carbon 14 samples had been taken had been floating around for some time. But no one paid much attention. In 1998, Turin’s scientific adviser, Piero Savarino, suggested, “extraneous substances found on the samples and the presence of extraneous thread (left over from ‘invisible mending’ routinely carried on in the past on parts of the cloth in poor repair)” might have accounted for an error in the carbon 14 dating. Longtime shroud researchers Sue Benford and Joe Marino independently developed the same idea and explored it with several textile experts and Ronald Hatfield of the radiocarbon dating firm Beta Analytic. The art of invisible reweaving, Benford and Marino discovered, was commonly used in the Middle Ages to repair tapestries. Why not the shroud, they thought? They believed they saw evidence of it.

    Photomicrograph of fibers from the center of the radiocarbon sample in water. Gum material is swelling and detaching from fibers. Chemical tests show that dye is yellow alizarin from madder root complexed with alum, a common mordant. Several cotton fibers are also visible. Cotton, alizarin and gum are only found in the C14 sample area of the shroud.

    But the skeptically minded Rogers did not agree. He had already debunked every other argument so far offered to explain why the carbon 14 dating might be wrong. According to Ball, “Rogers thought that he would be able to ‘disprove [the mending] theory in five minutes’.” Instead he found clear evidence of discreet mending. He also showed, with chemistry, that the shroud was at least thirteen hundred years old. And he proved, beyond any doubt, that the sample used in 1988 was chemically unlike the rest of the shroud. The samples were invalid. The 1988 tests were thus meaningless.

    In words that seem strange in a scientific journal that once had bragging rights to claim that the shroud was not authentic, Ball wrote: “And of course ‘authenticity’ is not really a scientific issue at all here: even if there were compelling evidence that the shroud was made in first-century Palestine, that would not even come close to establishing that the cloth bears the imprint of Christ.”

    Ball, who was familiar with the evidence, had confirmed what all shroud researchers had been saying for years: the images were not painted. Moreover, a 2003 article in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Melanoidins by Rogers and Anna Arnoldi, a chemistry professor at the University of Milan, demonstrated that the images were in fact a chemical caramel-like darkening of an otherwise clear starch and polysaccharide coating on some of the shroud’s fibers. They suggested a natural phenomenon might be the cause. If this could be proven, the images could be explained in non-miraculous, scientific terms.

    Shroud of Turin Second Face
    The Shroud of Turin images may not the direct result of a miracle, at least not in a traditional sense of the word. But they are not manmade either. These seem to be the contradictory conclusions from an article in the peer-reviewed, scientific Journal of Optics (April 14, 2004) of the Institute of Physics in London. Using mathematical image enhancement technology, Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo, researchers at the University of Padua in Italy, discovered a faint image of a second face on the back of the Shroud of Turin. This has since been confirmed with other software. The implications are explosive and exciting.

    This supports a hypothesis that the Shroud of Turin’s image is the result of a very natural, complex chemical reaction between amines (ammonia derivatives) emerging from a body and saccharides within a carbohydrate residue that covers the fibers of the Shroud of Turin. The color producing chemical process is called a Maillard reaction. This is fully discussed in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, Melanoidins, a journal of the Office for Official Publications of the European Communities (EU, Volume 4, 2003).

    Phase-contrast photomicrograph of a fiber and its image bearing coating. The coating is composed of starch fractions and saccharides.

    The proposal, by chemist Raymond E. Rogers and Anna Arnoldi of the University of Milan, is hypothetical. But the chemical and physical nature of the Shroud of Turin’s images is pure scientific fact.

    Imagine slicing a human hair lengthwise, from end to end, into 100 long thin slices; each slice one-tenth the width of a single red blood cell. The images on the Shroud of Turin, at their thickest, are this thin. In selective places, an otherwise clear layer of starch fractions and saccharides, a mere 200 to 600 nanometers thick, as thin as the wall of a soap bubble, has undergone a chemical change into a caramel colored substance. Spectral and chemical analysis reveal that the chromophores of the Shroud of Turin’s images are complex, conjugated carbon bonds.

    Whatever the Turin Shroud is, it is not a medieval fake relic.
    Just as modern Christianity is a tapestry of diverse traditions stretched taut between the polarities of unwavering biblical literalism and unbridled modern revisionism, modern beliefs and arguments about the Shroud of Turin are drawn tight between those who seek from it some proof of the Resurrection and those who are rigidly skeptical. Could it be that the answer is a via media, a middle way, a reasoned embrace of the facts that implies a resurrection but does not prove or define it. For a burial shroud to survive, the tomb had to be open. There is just enough confusion to preserve the freedom to believe short of certainty: meaning faith.

    If the Shroud of Turin is genuine, it presents us with more mystery and paradox than clarity. That, however, is not so perplexing as it is exciting in an age of diverse beliefs and traditions

  • Peter

    748
    Fascinating, thanks.
    The only issue I have problems with is this: if it were known at the time that an image of Jesus existed, would this to the apostles very important fact not have been mentioned in any of Paul’s, Peter’s, Mark/Peter’s and John’s writings ? One would think so.

    BTW: I have recently become interested in early church history, specially Peter. If you can recommand any scientifically sound books on the subject, that would be much appreciated.

  • Your posts are nice, I just added your feed to my news reader. Look forward to read more interesting stuff from you (if not it’s not that difficult to unsubscribe :) ).

  • Obol

    The shroud of Turin is a primitive photo made in a camera obscura by Leonardo Da Vinci

    The Marie Celeste was abandoned by her crew because she was carrying a highly flammable cargo, some of which escaped and the crew feared an explosion. Then they were tragically lost in a storm.

    The Bermuda triangle sits over a local mascon (mass concentration) aand the sea level is lower than average.
    Under the sea floor is a mineral which when exposed to water via landslide or tremor releases huge masses of bubbles which reduce the buoyancy of water to almost zero and rise to the surface. Naturally any ships unlucky enough to be sailing through such water will suddenly sink like stones.

    Jack the Ripper was the Liverpool cotton merchant James Maybrick, known to be a drug addict.

    I’ve heard the Taos Hum many times, every town seems to have one, and I’d say it was the sum of all the background city sounds that are just on the threshold of hearing.

  • Peter

    Obol, you have at most 3 out of 5 correct. If you care to read post 748, you’ll see why #1 is wrong. As for the Taos hum, well, have you been to Taos ?

  • blobbyblob

    hi i’m 11 yrs old

    i like pie

  • blobbyblob

    i’m annoying and fat and smelly and ugly

  • acryphaea

    william tell – i read your response to loki… i pity you. you’re talking about faith yet you don’t understand faith. faith is also a mystery. and a mystery cannot be solved. you’re trying to explain things by means of that piece of flesh inside your head. even the sun is just a piece of dust in the universe, how come your idea about faith should explain everything about logic. i know you’re intelligent but frightened. afraid to accept things you don’t understand. remember, even if you don’t believe, that doesn’t mean it’s not real. i’m sure at the end of the day you’ll be asking forgiveness for your soul, saying ” i’m just a human being.

  • acryphaea

    loki – for your information, atheists pray. especially when their professors are having graded recitation in the class, hunted by their girlfriends because of cheating, and hunted by their parents. god bless my friend. to god be the glory!

  • alexman

    in regards to the black dahlia- i watched a documentary where there was strong evidence that this mans father- a certified genius who was easily bored and loved to attend celebrity sex parties and take pics was the murderer. he had an IQ higher than einsteins but got easily angry as he had nothing to satisfy his brainpower.

    shroud of turin might be from jesus but jesus was just one of a hundred middle east/north african preachers and only spread due to the romans being forced to adopt it by one emperor so who cares if its real

  • Peter

    Alexman,
    Your comment about the shroud shows that you have zero knowledge about early christianity. So why bother to voice your opinion ? Probably to rub christians the wrong way. Now, of that motive all of your hundreds of preachers would have disapproved, because it ads to your individual and our collective sorrow.

  • KillEmAll

    Wow the debate here is pretty nice, I personally believe that Jesus and his powers were exaggerated to say the least. Here are few thing I would like to state for religious people like you please read :
    Mary a 14 to 16 year old girl was made pregnant by the holy spirit. To get a 14 to 16 year old lady should be a statutory rape isn’t it?? A virgin child molester is that whom you guys praying??
    And how right was it to get a 14-16 old girl pregnant, she was too young to understand what was right and wrong, to be god sounds like a twisted psycho rapist.
    If you believe in god how many Romans and Egyptians were killed by floods, plagues and disease, described as a curse from God? So we pray the almighty who kills??

    I’d rather pray Bin Ladin, at least he doesnt write proudly in any book that he got a 14 year girl pregnant….

  • Peter

    @killemall,
    your name gives away your age. no problem, I’ve been young too. Your language is atrocious, but hey, no problem, I see what you mean.
    You seem to think that before he was bron Jesus raped his mother, when she was 14 to 16. I’d say that is definite proof of his divinity.
    see 758

  • sanjay chhettri

    wow the articles are awesome

  • Just to make you aware:
    The development of the Phoenix AZ region, has inspired the construction of homes, estates and businesses; and unintentionally created an oasis for pests. Readily available food and water, contribute to the growth, development and spread of Phoenix pest control problems. As a result, the proliferation of Phoenix pest control problems like the Fire Ant, Scorpion and Black Widow Spider; have caused more damage to real estate in the United States, than fires and storms combined.

  • Jessica

    all of you losers need to find girl friends, and the girls who waste their time on this shit…well there is no hope for you.

  • ScubaSteve

    @Jessica
    If you don’t like it, get the hell out of here. You are probably fat and lonely.

  • chiaotzu

    HELO THER…

    I DUN LIEK MEGAN PHOX… SOMEBODY PLZ ASK SOME GHOST OR SOME FREAKING DEAD RELATIVE OF URS 2 KILL HER.

    TANKS

  • abhishek reddy

    very awesome

  • Phoenix613

    I found this in the news yesterday….

    “AN Italian scientist has reproduced the Shroud of Turin, a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ’s burial cloth is a medieval fake. A professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia, Garlaschelli reproduced the full-sized shroud using materials and techniques that were available in the middle ages.

    They placed a linen sheet flat over a volunteer and then rubbed it with a pigment containing traces of acid. A mask was used for the face.

    The pigment was then artificially aged by heating the cloth in an oven and washing it, a process which removed it from the surface but left a fuzzy, half-tone image similar to that on the Shroud.

    He believes the pigment on the original Shroud faded naturally over the centuries.”

  • Anthony

    Yea, looks like number one on this list can be marked “solved”

  • mangya

    i think you are very interested in this things.i am also interested.. please give me some names of the sites where i can read this points deeply..

  • mangya

    hey why unsolved mystery of the pyramid not on the list???
    or the shape of the pyramid is also mystery????

  • mangya

    why area 51 is not also include??

  • My friend sent me this URL in an email, she said that I’d really enjoy your post.

    Peace!

  • loveGOD143

    very interesting. esp. the bermuda triangle and the vonych and the zodiac killer. they’re making me wonder and curios.

  • Jaryuki

    Bermuda Triangle shouldn’t be on this list. There hasn’t been as many cases of wrecks or disappearances as claimed and even for those that are reported and truly did happen in the ares, well, the amounts are not surprising when you concider the size, location and the amount of traffic in the area.

  • great list!! ^_^

  • It’s so hard to find good information these days, I have read a few of your posts and I am very impressed with your site. Thanks

  • JOselin

    Why ZODIAC KILLER? I don’t understand :S
    SOrry xD

  • Great information and great site, I have added this to my favorites, do you have an rss feed I can subscribe too?

  • Harrison
  • Hey, I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I like what you have to say. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.

  • ben brennan

    party with me?
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    <3 <3 <3 <3
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  • sophie

    i dont think these are reallll

  • GURURAJ

    HI……I LIKE UNSOLVED MYSTRIES , I HAVE GOOD COLLECTION OF THIS ………NOT ONLY THIS ….AND OTHERS RELATED TO THESE TYPE OF MYSTRIES ………FAIRY,ELF,LEPICHAUN N MANY OTHER’S LIKE THESE..ARE ALSO WALK WITH US BUT WE ARE NOT LOOK THERE .AT LAST ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO SARE WITH U IS……IN THIS WORLD NO ONE WORLD LIKE SUPERSTITIES , THE PERSON WHO BELIVE IN GOD . HE KNOW THAT GOD IS HERE FOR US ….SO SAME TYPE DEVIL ALWAYES WALK WITH US AND TO HERT US …..OK BYE BYE

  • NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE IN THIS WORLD THEY ONLY AFRAID THAT THESE TYPE OF THINGS….THEY THINK THAT,IF THEY ARE NOT BELIVE IN THIS THINGS THEY ARE NOT HERT HIM.BUT THEY ARE WRONG ALL DEVILS ARE DEVILS THEY NOT SHOW U MERCY……….

  • Really super information, I will add to book marks this web site, thanks vicky

  • black panther

    its so obvious that this shroud thing is fake….so u mean to say jesus was god?? i believe jesus was real n an extremely good hearted being like gandhi, buddha or saibaba…but thats it ..it ends der…..these christians go about as if der s is the only thing that is real n other all religions r fake…..ppl remembr one thing ..that saying…”what is history but a fable agreed upon?”

  • black panther

    and that bermuda triangle..ppl forget it…its been proved its fake ppl just cooked it up…refer wikipedia..

  • black panther

    and wow..all the mysteries seem to have taken place in US/UK …see this is again hw these ppl like to quote that they r the center of everything…as if thay have even seen the middle east n eastern countries at all….
    one example…see that new hollywood movie..”watchmen”..i got so irritated wid that stupid dialogue//”….it proves god exists,and he is an american..”

  • Dirtman73

    Whoever wrote this article didn’t do too much research, particularly on the subject of the Zodiac. A large portion of the evidence, while completely circumstantial, points to Arthur Leigh Allen as the Zodiac Killer. Seriously, if you’ve been as obsessed with the case as I have for the last six years, you’d be insane to believe any of the other suspects could have been involved.
    If you’re going to post something like this on the internet, at least spend a few minutes doing a bit of research instead of having Google do it for you.

  • Tony

    jfrater,

    You asked for a link about the shroud being reproduced. Here is a recent story that I’m surprised you missed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8291948.stm

    Further, you seem adamant that wikipedia is a reliable source for serious research, whereas I and many others are not so sure about that.

    As for the Bermuda Triangle, journalists and scientists investigating has not found an unusually high amount of disappearances (other random areas, e.g. “triangles,” in the ocean have been shown to produce a similar level of crashes and disappearances). This is not some spooky mystery, and I’m surprised you didn’t try to debunk it.

  • @Tony (791): The original shroud photographs to a 3D representation whereas the new one does not. The new one also has a cartoon-like character which the original does not.

    You can read a more detailed analysis here.

  • dick van dyke

    hmmmmm the mary celeste isnt that much of a mystery as many ships around that were found abandoned. It was thought that were carrying alcohol on board and they were afraid that would cathc fire and explode so they went on the emergency boat and ited a rope to the ship but it wasnt tied properly so they drifted and drowned lol as for the shroud of turin who cares i think it’s real it just isnt jesus as many people were given shroud over ther bodies during that time but i do believe the carbon dateing is ireelevant as carbon dateing can never accuratly prove the age of most things lol the black dahlia im not really bothered not much of a mystery either as it must of been a psychopath the end heheheh and the babushka lady isnt that much of a mystery either as i think she didint saw anything the jfk conspiracy is just nonsense if you wanted to assassinat someone it would of been in front of the whole world on camera lol as for the taos hum ive never heard it myself but im sure theres a scientific explanaition for this as for the bermuda triangle could there be a worm hole there hehehe that what some think i just think its all a coincedence as im sure its just as dangerous as most of other areas of sea as for instance theres one in japan just as dangerous as the bermuda triangle lol as for jack the ripper there have been so much theories this is a shot in the dark but could it of been a nutter hehehehe. as for the void manuscipt maybe they had a sense of humour as the wrote it because they knew idiots from this era would try and figure it out but it had no meaning heheh the zodiac killer ive broken one of his codes and i know who it was it was george bush heheheh if you want to know any more interesting ideas dnt ask me lol

  • Jim

    Great summaries. Also check out http://historicmysteries.com for more mysteries.

  • James Smith

    Re: The Bermuda Triangle. I have sailed or flown through that area many times and lived on the edge of it (Boca Raton, FL) for a time. I have never experienced anything unusual at all. No strange compass deviations, unusual cloud formations, mysterious fogs, nothing.

    This is one of the most heavily traveled sea and air lanes in the world and has been for hundreds of years. The amount of disappearances there are not greater than in any other similar area i the world. Just because something is not understood, doesn’t mean it has to have a supernatural explanation.

    The Pharaohs would have thought airplanes, even gliders, were “the work of the gods” even though the laws of aerodynamics were as much in effect then as now. What we are seeing is ignorance + mystery = supernatural.

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  • ibelieveSA

    Anything on ghosts and why they visit us?

  • I found your blog on google. I find it very interesting and gave me more informations. Look forward to reading more from you in the future. MY TIPS AND SUGGESTIONS: 1- KEYWORDS Watch position and density in every section of yuor content. 2- CONTENT Content is king, so be sure to have good, well-written and unique content that will focus on your primary keyword or keyword phrase. 3. BACK LINKS Build a network of quality backlinks using your keyword phrase as the link. All of these above are increadible inter connected. LAST but more important tip: THE FIRST TOP LEFT PORTION OF THE SCREEN is the section of your web page where you need to concentrate your space for; keywords, related content, links.

  • Pat

    The shroud of turin is a fake. Carbon dating already told us this, but now it has been recreated.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/10/07/italy.turin.shroud/index.html

  • nicoleredz3

    Great article… I saw pics of the decapitated body of the “Black Dahlia”… I’m like wow! :-(

  • Riniki

    Well, nice piece of mystery information was that. I really enjoyed reading it. I think if more efforts are put in making them more summetive as well as informative, than the mystery lovers will read it anyway.
    It is perfectly beneficial for the “teens”, wheather someone think its heck or useless. I have my own opinion and that is on the positive side.
    So, atlast i wnt to say that please try to provide more informatiom on the topics given and those will be given.
    Nice job buddy!!!!

  • Hanson

    I’m thinking Ted Bundy and Zodiac killer may have been the same murdurer. I heard that he said “what ever gets your rocks off” about killing people. As it says in the letter. And they were active in years close to eachother. The phantom picture of his is not too unlikely to be Ted Bundy either.

  • u the best dww

    great this is so cool

  • heber rox

    wow this is definitly soemthing that needs to be solved i am even thinking of going there myself and seeing how this happend i really hope that this killer is dead cuz i do not want to be that girl!! but yea! bye bye ill write back if i solve it

  • hemanth

    i think this is so boring to read

  • Aurell

    i used to hear the hum a lot during study hall in my previous school.

    other people heard it too D:

  • sisterjanet

    That the shroud of Turin has not been proven to be TRUE is the more important point. It is not the responsibility of skptics to disprove, but rather the responsibility of those claming it to be real to prove its validity. There exists no convincing, consistent or replicable evidence to prove that the shroud is real. However, teast have been able to show CONCLUSIVELY (ie, the results replicated numerous times) that the fabric is from the 1300s.

  • sisterjanet

    I just can’t believe this list is even up here. It is full of superstition, half truths, myths and misunderstandings. Anyone who still believes in the burmuda triangle must be trying really hard to avoid all the information out there on the reality of the situation. It is definately not a mystery, some people just wish it was.

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  • P.T.

    The Zodiac Killer composite sketches and D.B. Cooper look pretty much the same guy

  • anonymous

    The Mary Celeste has been solved, there's a documentary on it where it uncovers it all with tests.
    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/inthenews

  • Tron

    Thing about the zodiac killer is he probably killed himself (i read a few books on the case) and his final 'letter' to the papers reads like suicide note it says (at one point) "I AM NOW IN CONTROL OF ALL THINGS'

    and as for the bermuda triangle the # of dissapearances in a stretch of ocean that wide is not at ALL out of the ordinary. it's average for an area of that size.

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  • dansho

    Great article. I just came across a recent article on the current greatest mysteries of the universe and its fascinating how many of those are actually defy established scientific facts. For example finding objects 30 billion light years away when the universe is only 13.7 billion years old. Read the complete article, its really interesting:

    Bane of the scientific world: Biggest mysteries

  • Soendoro Soetanto

    This is a great list.

    Soendoro Soetanto

  • 8340000

    Nice, i learned a lot, this page is very nice…..

  • Totally interesting, and something new to think about.

    I have to give an informative speech on something, I just don't know what yet!

    The Babushka (I love all things Russian, even if they hate us) Lady looks totally suspicious, someone might think, "OMG (well it's nineteen-sixty, so text-language/ Palinese hasn't been invented yet, but one can dream!), like… what is this… like… lady doing here? She's like… all covered and stuff… like… isn't that suspicious, and stuff? You know?"

    Yes, I'm making fun of the way people speak today. It's so sad, I'm reminded of what the old man in Definitely Maybe said while talking about his book, "Words fall out of our mouth, and die at our feet." Sorry if I misquoted, but it's true.

    Great List, please keep it up. I'm still looking for something to totally boggle me! =^)

  • Sarah

    I live in Northern Europe DK in the suburbs, and when the sun goes down and sometimes in the middle of the night you can hear "The Taos Hum" It's eerie and very pleasant to the ears, however neighbors and friends believe it's a train in the distance which may explain the "diesel engine" sound.
    As for the Bermuda Triangle: My father was a sailor and he has sailed through it a couple of times, he even took me with him once. Nothing special happened that I can recall of.

  • Francisco

    D.B. Cooper?? Or maybe Jonbenet Ramsey?

  • whitehound

    A perfectly good explanation for a slight increase in disappearances of small planes in the Bermuda Triangle was aired on British TV about 20 years ago. There are two points extending into the sea in that area which are visually almost identical when seen from the air. If you think you are over one of them, when actually you are over the other, you will think you are heading towards a safe landfall but actually be heading out to sea.

    There isn’t the remotest possibility of Prince Albert Victor being the Ripper because his whereabouts were well documented, and he was definitely known to be somewhere else for some of the murders. In other words, he had an incontrovertible alibi. For him to be guilty there would have to have been two Rippers with identical MOs.

  • puneet arora

    intersting one………..

  • tallguypete

    the turin shroud is a fake,the catholic church believes it is real so they can control the people like they have done for centurys, where in the bible does it say abortions are an act against their god? no where, where does it state that catholics do not use condoms in marriage? no where, just like every government in the world today the catholic church is trying to dictate what is and is not allowed because thats how they want it to be, does it say in the bible it is ok for a catholic priest to abuse a child sexually? no it does not, so why does the catholic church try to hide and keep silent the number of priests that have comitted this act against children in their care?
    that is why they will not allow more tests on the shroud because the truth would come out,if they were so sure it is genuine they would allow it to be tested properly,but they wont,because like the priests they hide it away from society, where does it state that the catholic church are the ones that have all authority to decide about something like the shroud belongs to them, it belongs to no one, was it left in a will to them? no, therefore it belongs to the people and it is they that should decide if it should be tested again.

  • L

    Well if you look closely at the zodiac killer a name pops out Robert methphit. That is whAt I have concluded about this case

  • alex

    I must say that this is a great post.
    I loved reading it. You have done a great job
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  • rubylee1776

    fantastic post!

  • Unknown

    has anyone else tried to decipher the Zodiac Killer's message Because if the letters are swapped the code would be rather easy to decipher.

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  • 1try

    um just a quick note does anyone else have any possibilities for the last 18 letters,
    given the brief background and the characteristics i got previously i only got as far as
    "EBEORIETEMETHHPITI" = "be the meteori(P)e hit" for the last 18 letters missing a few but that guy used an insane code so its still a guess

  • about the Bermuda triangle…the three ports i.e. bermuda, puerto rico and miami…..have a force of pressure which cause of the sea winds which causes by the high imbalance of enviromental conditions….as fruther it is not a triangle….it have been cover by many bondaries which view its complex fig. as for the investigtion for severval years…some bodies have been found but in distructed manner which hardly find out the result…if u see the streaming flow current north through the western atlantic ocean..you can i have accurate view what's the reality caused by the natural phenomeon…at last mystries are been to solved and had been solved..but some how no one wants to accept it….

  • John in Alice

    Interesting stories, though I’m familiar with most of them. You really ought to just ignore the athiest trolls – when they realize they’re talking to themselves, they’ll go away. Years ago I had a collection of 3 paperbacks that listed hundreds of unexplained mysteries – I think the titles were, “Stranger than Science”?? A few that come to mind were a prisoner receiving mysterious bites in front of the jailers and a farmer walking across a field disappearing in front of his family.

    Anyway, keep up the good work.

  • Arsalan Ahmed

    Thank you Sir for providing this Information,
    Pakistan Here. . !

  • Bob

    The Bermuda Triangle, has the same amount of boat/plane/electrical incidents as any other area in the world. This has been proven, please do not perpetuate myths when the facts are out there easily researched.

  • monnanon

    I am from the UK and i think I have heard that wierd noise mentioned. I always thought it was a quiet moment thingy you know late at night or very early morning and for that reason I thought it was traffic further away. Because it was quiet in your immediate area you get this wierd hum. I would still think that if it wasn't for the fact they couldn't record it which I'm sure they could with that type of noise.

  • m.srinivas

    the mystery of babushka lady is really thrilling,the search must go on………..

  • Wasabi

    My great uncle survived crossing the Bermuda triangle, he said that there was a drop in the ocean, like a chasm. The water literally dropped away.

  • English Learning Center

    I really enjoy the complete Article .its look like a story of any film ,is so great and new Article.

  • Jazmin Moran

    please people…I am agnostic (moms a jew, dad a “catholic), but thank the supreme being that I am not a closed minded prick!! I did some research because, like the Guadalupe cloth, there are no plausible explanations…guys trust me..I read and investigated…and I cant say its real but it is DEFINITLY not fake.
    Everything says its a real deal. The carbon dating(which is the only thing that make the shroud not a done deal) is off 1200 years because when the scientists did the testing they got a piece of the cloth that apparently had been altered, regading time/date, due to a fire. In the middle ages part of the cloth was set on fire ( not directly, if not the convent were it was ) thus the reason for the time period recorded by the carbon testing. This is a scientific fact and I encourage you guys to learn more about it because its really fascinating and eerie really! Kind of freaky!! The funny part comes here, that part the was tested matched exactly to the time period of fire in the convent . Weird.
    What they should do now is test EVERY part of the shroud (its veryyyy long) and not a small fracture of it. My guess is that there is, because of the many other thing unexplainable about it… but for now the fact is that they do not want to test it again because it destroys part of the shroud and catholics do not want that.

  • Jesus (was not white)

    Several of these can be attributed to not doing the required research to write about this kind of thing.

    Mary Celeste: We’ve known this one for years. It was caused by an alcohol explosion; a thin wall of flame followed by an outwardly expanding plume of relatively cool air. Nothing and time to burn, and the surviving crew were so spooked they left without proper supplies.

    Shroud of Turin: An amazing process known as “taking a thing and lying about it” has been used here; applied in the form of taking a scrap of cloth and lying about its origin. Scientists (those bizarre, elusive creatures) have done some actual, you know, SCIENCE, in the form of dating it back to around 600 years ago, also known as “most definitely the time when Jesus was not alive.”

    Bermuda Triangle: Possibly one of the greatest statistical fails in the world, 5 minutes of research reveals that the “disappearance” rate in the Bermuda Triangle is no greater than that of any other equally traveled body of water; in fact, in some cases it’s even lower, because superstitious sailors tend to be extra careful around there. Also, a remarkable thing about a sinking ship: it has a tendency to SINK. DOWN. As in, to the bottom of the ocean. But hey, I’m sure aliens or whatever is obviously what’s causing the below average amount of shipwrecks there.

  • Bullshit

    this is ridiculous
    this isnt even true
    its really fake, everyone that believes me, can tell.
    seriously, who wastes their time doing this kind of stuff
    and i would want just to say, that; this are myths.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, the case of Jack the Ripper is solved.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, the case of Jack this Ripper is solved.

  • Athiest

    I hate the “Black Dahlia” case and had nightmares from viewing the graphic crime scene photos. PLEASE don’t search Elizabeth in Google!
    They’ll never solve it since there’s no evidence and everyone involved died long ago. I don’t believe Steve Hodel’s claims and those supposed pics aren’t Short but actually younger stills of his mother. He is a BS artist wanting fame. Andrew Jack Wilson killed her. He tried raping her before her murder.

  • John

    I am shocked, shocked at the proliferation of salacious nabobs of negativism so prevalent in so many of these alleged comments.

  • alex

    the black dahlia killer is George Hodel, he was the father of a dectective called steve hodel who was investigating the case it was on a tv show i watched on freeview channel 11

  • dissatisfied surfer

    The ads on this page are annoying and make it difficult to read the material I came for. Comment left; content ignored. Learn to script efficiently.

  • Paul Clayton

    I’m surprised the Lost Colony of Roanoke is not on this list. However, there is a book by a writer that has tackled this topic. It is called, White Seed: The Untold Story of the Lost Colony of Roanoke.

  • anu

    good………………………………..its really fan……tastic

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  • kim

    I’m not sure if someone already said this or not, but I think that the identity of the Zodiac Killer was discovered either last year or the year before. His daughter came out and confessed because he had already passed away by that time.

  • vendija

    In my opinion just reading this the Voynich manuscript might be a book of shadows for those who don’t know what that is it is a book which pagans/ witches keep. And a book of shadows contains pretty much that and more.

  • I honestly don’t think the Babushka lady is a woman. Look at the way she’s standing. She’s standing like a man. No self respecting woman who cares enough to cover her head with a head scarf would stand with her legs spread wide like a tripod. look at how the women in red is standing in comparison, legs much closer together. Also, how many women of that day would go out and buy a video camera and videotape something. I’m all for breaking tradition, but it was a pretty unlikely thing for a woman to do on her own, especially an older woman who would wear a headscarf. All my instincts say — and I would bet money that babushka lady was actually a man.

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  • Travis

    The shroud of tourin is Leonardo Da’vinci. There was a documentary recently on Da’Vinci and in the documentary they performed a cross analysis between the mona lisa and the shroud of tourin, which showed them as a perfect match, while the mona lisa also was a perfect match for a hand drawn self portrait by Da’Vinci. He used a type of radiation burning, mercury and sunlight, as well as a picture of himself to carbon copy the image onto cloth.

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  • Petros Petrosyan

    Hi,
    I’m Petros Petrosyan.
    I now live in Chicago.

    Very Important…

    1. The pyramid is not a sepulcher of Pharaoh and the purpose of
    its construction was not on this plane.

    2.Pyramid is ciphered message.
    It is simply improbable.

    3. The basic model of the Pyramid cipher was established.
    The basic model of the code of a pyramid is formed of 365 small pyramids
    which consist atof model of the code. 14 steps

    Please Go to: http://www.world-mysteries.com/pex_PPetrosyan1.htm
    Thanks, Petros M.Petrosyan

  • replicar23193

    Name

    • YouRang?

      Ahh, the 11th Unsolvable Mystery: Why do people keep writing “Name” as a comment? It’s like those radio sites that just repeat random strings of numbers over and over. Does anyone know why someone would do that?

  • Toulsececlilk

    Name

  • Ken

    Id like to see a few politicians vanish…but strangely they do not…I think they are behind many disappearances in our world.

  • I am a detective, taking the name of a manga detective, and the zodiac killer is still out there. He isnt young, but he is on rampage. There havnt been any recent victims, and there has been proof that there are multiple zodiac killers, all whose names are unkown. Ive been hunting the killer down for years, and came to the conclusion that they are all male, and is said to be insecure, with the supposed letter he had written about wanting slaves in the afterlife. the message does say differently, as the decoded one says a lot of words arnt even words, and some letters are placed randomly. I have created thousands of possibilities for deciphering it, but not come close.

  • I had to give another comment so it wouldn’t just stay at 899… Okay. that’s the only reason I’m commenting. Yup.

  • PapiDreadI

    When I was 7yrs old(1975)I was scubadiving in the north/eastern coast of off San Juan with my dad and 2 uncles…when suddenly there was no power on the boat none of the instruments worked…the sky turn pitch black and the water was rising in huge columns…and then hundreds(maybe thousands!)of dolphins…
    there is something out there…
    I know

  • asdfghjkl

    i think maybe the so called camera of the babuska lady is a gun or something, you never know…..

  • AbrarbakY

    Name

  • Trerrushese

    Name

  • foeldCiregole

    Name

  • Kevin

    wow i never knew about the tao hum.
    but this might explain these hums i heard all the time.
    whenever i was alone and not doing anything, if i concentrated,
    i could here a low hum. sometimes it would be loud, sometimes less.
    a few times it was so loud i had to cover my ears…..
    or maybe im just crazy cause nobody else heard it.

  • Cherelle Jacckson

    AWWWWW Can’t wait to see 3rd season!!Hope it will be as good as second season cause I loved the whole battle royale theme in first episodes!!!Yürü be School Rumble kim tutar seni!!!

  • ngips

    the face in the shroud of turin was not of Jesus. it is more likely that of jacques demolay, the last commander of the knights templars, who was subjected to the same kind of torture inflicted upon The Christ.

  • Slensanna

    Name

  • Frieretix

    Name

  • bionicragdoll

    Not sure is anyone else mentioned this or not but there was a special on Discovery or NatGeo (or some other similar channel) that theorized that Jack the Ripper moved to New York and started killing there and that’s why the murders stopped in London. They did a pretty convincing job proving that around the time the murders stopped in London almost identical murders started occurring in NYC.

  • KevaNarprex

    Name

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  • Ahoy

    I read abt some, watched a couple of cases, but the most exciting are the ones that I jst came acroSs for the 1st time… Highly thrilling and informative.

  • Tarang

    its very fantabulous…!!!
    i like it very much…!!!
    i only know something about bermuda triangle…!!!
    but by reading this i came to know about various mysteries…!!!
    thankssss for the information

  • Nishchal baghele

    True…

  • InsaskGrina

    Name

  • csbuddzgoljz

    Name

  • Walaa

    From Saudi Arabia , thanks a lot
    This web site was very helpful in complete my project in Berlitz
    Thank you again :)

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    Name

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    Name

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  • kailub rivera

    i got the answer for # 1 there is a face and the story says it was rapt around the face so it is juses face and there was blood on it and wen he was crusfid thay had a crown of thrones so it cud of ben that juses blode type was AB.and the clof was found in the tomb and jesuse was in the tomb after crusifid for 3 days

  • hamza

    this is so interesting……..

  • IdodsBuhMus

    Name

  • Aaron

    What’s the fascination with the Shroud of Turin? Even if you prove that it’s real, and that it’s from the time that Christ is supposed to have been crucified, at what point have you proven it had anything to do with Jesus? There were thousands of crucifixions, and even more generic average deaths. Why would proving the Shroud authentic prove that it was Jesus? Wouldn’t it simply prove that a phenomenon took place and requires more looking into? Jumping to naming the person depicted with zero evidence of identity is illogical.

  • Stephen

    The Shroud of Turin has been solved.

    • Acas

      My mum worked it out. Proud of her.

  • daynckeyday

    Name

  • Chico

    The American Government with the aid of the CIA killed Kennedy why would any one trust them then and now? Hell all knowen law enforcement agencies knowen and created by the greedy American Government don’t trust one another.

  • Aaaaa

    Okkkk…this is too scary…but I do believe in these stories because things like these do happen

  • charly

    estoy buscando información de un crimen sin resolver, no tengo la fecha exacta pero creo que ocurrió entre los años ’60 y ’70. busque por todos lados pero no pude encontrar nada. la información que recuerdo fue de un libro que leí y si bien recuerdo relataba lo siguiente.
    niño de no mas de 7 años fue encontrado ahogado en un canal cercano a su casa, se pensó en accidentes pero creo que fue asesinato, familiares estuvieron implicados pero nunca se pudo resolver. la información como ven es muy vaga, no recuerdo ubicación, pero creo que fue en Europa, si les resulta familiar me podrían ayudar con algún dato nombre o pais les agradecería mucho. mi email es [email protected]
    garcías

  • Name

    so you think that it is completely impossible for the bremuda to be something supernatural?

  • fasd

    you all suck

  • Rafa

    There are three magic boxes in this world, obviously, the man who made himself Jesus has one but he’s still rolling all over the floor laughing his balls off to bother enlightening you guys

  • laia

    HELlOW

  • sayani biswas

    will they remain unsolved forever? they are really mysteries and very interesting.

  • sayani

    i can not understand the mystery of ” Black Dahlia ” . the site is nice but it does contain the mystery of of the ” CURSE OF TUTHANKAMUN” – in my eyes the most mysterious one.

  • romy

    so dum!!

    My answer isnt solved

    • Henry

      For item # 9

      EBEORIETEMETHHPITI i guess it means

      BEFORETHEGATHERING

  • Elyse

    Im commenting in regards to the shroud of Turin. I have seen a documentary stating that it was a work of Leonardo Da Vinci and it possibly is the first photo ever taken. It also mentions, that the face on the shroud was Leonardo himself (as was the mona lisa) It was made with similar techniques as film development. I’m not saying that this is actual fact, but it does make sense to me. I’m not sure as to how old this top 10 list is, but this fascinating story is well worth the research :)

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  • Lori.13

    The Bermuda Triangle. The most fascinating mystery of all time. I have created a book of most all the famous stories of the Bermuda Triangle( Cyclops 1918; Flight 19 1945; Uss Nereus and Uss Proteus 1941)
    I have done a tremendous amout of research and having a photographic memory helps me remember what ships and planes look like just by the pictures I’ve seen on websites and in books by readin their stories. Of course Aliens are fascinating, they are also fictious. The real reason ships and planes are dissapearing are because of the natural disasters that occur inside the bermuda triangle. Methane gas, Rogue waves, Hurricanes, Whirl pools have all been proved to exist, yet no one has ever really found any extraterrestrial remains. The Bermuda Triangle has a thrilling series of mysteries to tell, if only we would listen to the real story instead of leaving of evidents in our information out just to make the Bermuda Triangle seem more mysterious than it already is.
    -Lori

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  • brandon

    the bermuda triangle is a strong magnetic field beleived to be aliens or sea monsters but since the rocks at the bottom are so magnetic they pull down metal airplanes,boats,and anything else that is metal and passes over it.

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  • grosir perlengkapan haji

    artikel yang menarik. salam kenal ya :)

  • Amber

    #6: The first Troll.

  • Reblogged this on thescienceofd and commented:
    For mystery lovers..must read…

  • dex

    I have been browsing on-line more than three hours today, yet I by no means found any fascinating article like yours. It’s pretty price enough for me. In my opinion, if all website owners and bloggers made just right content as you probably did, the internet can be much more helpful than ever before.

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  • sidra subhan

    don’t you 2012 is also a unsolved mystery
    it should be in top 10

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  • project freedom

    Remarkable things here. I am very happy to see your post. Thank you so much and I’m taking a look ahead to contact you. Will you please drop me a mail?

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  • sperb?0.0.0!0 . . .

  • Ahh the good ole days of Listverse. I had to reread some lists to get relive the experience.

  • Ravi

    Intresting information

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  • james

    omg jake the ripper is not yet been named

  • Reblogged this on Sharmili unplugged……. and commented:
    Top among the “Top 10 Unsolved Mysteries”: 1.Shroud of Turin; 2.The Taos hum;3.Voynich manuscript

  • UnwincSmick

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  • Liz

    The shroud of turin, mary celeste and the bermuda triangle mysteries are solved

  • Paul

    Wasn’t the Bermuda Triangle mystery solved? I remember hearing that there are large underwater volcanoes in that area that release high concentrations of methane, which could snap the ships in two. Also the methane is less dense than the air so when it rose, the altitude resuming device in the planes ( I forgot what they were called) would read higher so the pilots fearing they were going to high would try to lower the plane and before realizing their mistake they would crash into the water.

  • Guess only

    For # 9

    EBEORIETEMETHHPITI” The last eighteen letters have not been decrypted.

    i think it means BEFORETHEGATHERING

  • Mark

    EBEORIETEMETHHPITI >> i guess it means

    BEFORETHEGATHERING

  • You don’t think the babushka lady was just there to see JFK, or is that too boring and not conspiracy enough for you?

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  • Luke Angel

    nice 1

  • Fehemiepomo

    ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????1???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    http://www.lvheyokoso.com/ ?????
    http://www.lvheyokoso.com/ ??????
    http://www.lvheyokoso.com/ ???? ??
    http://www.lvheyokoso.com/ ???? ???
    http://www.lvheyokoso.com/ ??????

    ????? : http://www.lvheyokoso.com/

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    ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    http://www.pradakan.com/ ???
    http://www.pradakan.com/ ??????
    http://www.pradakan.com/ prada
    http://www.pradakan.com/ prada??
    http://www.pradakan.com/ ?????

    ??? : http://www.pradakan.com/

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  • pococonuts

    regarding the shroud of turin, i found this interesting:

    http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/turin

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  • narendra

    good

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  • suresh

    I think zodiac killer is the most mysterious of all…cause he was is in a killing spree at public in a most developed country without getting noticed.he had send post letters to police,news agencies and still was imposible to even get a clue of his identity ..reading his decoded script makes my blood chill.Although jack the ripper is similiar to him,but it was way back in 18 century…

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  • Reblogged this on Tanii's Teenage Thoughts and commented:
    I was doing some investigation around mysteries and conspiracy theories after reading the Joshua Files. This is really interesting.

  • h sjassal

    A very interesting reading. Whatsoever we may scientific method to solve these mysteries it is difficult. There should be some stories which may make a wonderful reading.

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  • Name

    it is a boring website cause nothing’s there

  • Krum

    Maybe the last 18 letters are an anagram and mean:
    I’m both eerie epithet.

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