Subscribe to ListverseTop 10 Problems With Scientology
- Published August 17, 2007 - 255 Comments
The Church of Scientology is a cult created by L Ron Hubbard (Elron) in 1952 as an outgrowth of his earlier self-help system called Dianetics. Unfortunately there are some problems with the organisation and with Hubbard as a person. This is the top 10 problems with Scientology.
1. Hubbard was a drug abuser
L Ron Hubbard was a drug abuser, which is ironic considering the organisation is very anti-drugs and even runs an organisation called Narconon to help people get off drugs. This from the Narconon website: Narconon is a non-profit drug rehab program dedicated to eliminating drug abuse and drug addiction through drug prevention, education and rehabilitation. I am not sure how much you can trust an organisation to help you with the very problem its founder suffered until his death.
Here is a quote from Hubbard’s son Ronald deWolf:
“I have personal knowledge that my father regularly used illegal drugs including amphetamines, barbituates and hallucinogens. He regularly used cocaine, peyote, and mescaline.” — Ronald DeWolf a.k.a. L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. Affadavit in Schaick v. Church of Scientology, US District Court Mass., No. 79-2491
When Hubbard was in Las Palmas during 1967 he wrote a letter to his wife. In it Hubbard tells his wife: “I’m drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys.” See the decision by Judge Paul G. Breckenridge, Jr. in Scientology v. Armstrong, Los Angeles Superior Court, Case No. C 420153.
2. Hubbard was a liar
Mr Hubbard told his followers that he was Nuclear Physicist:
Developed by L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., Ph.D., a nuclear physicist, Scientology has demonstrably achieved this long-sought goal. Doctor Hubbard, educated in advanced physics and higher mathematics and also a student of Sigmund Freud and others, began his present researches thirty years ago at George Washington University.
[Hubbard, "P.E. Handout", HCO Information Letter of 14 April 1961]
In fact, Hubbard had no scientific degrees. In February 1953 he decided to obtain a “degree” from Sequoia University, a notorious “degree mill” in Los Angeles that was eventually shut down by the Californian state government in 1958. [Quoted in Russell Miller, Bare-Faced Messiah, page 212].
Hubbard also claimed to being a war hero – this was not true. In an eighteen month period, Hubbard was relieved of duty three times.
3. Hubbard was dishonest in his marriage
When Ron’s wife Sara filed for divorce in 1951, she claimed that Ron was married when he married her. You can view the court document here.
That in the early part of 1946, plaintiff, then age 21 and unmarried, resided with her family in Pasadena, and at the University of Southern California, that at said time, defendant L. Ron Hubbard, hereinafter referred to as “Hubbard”, was a married man, age 35, he being then married to Margaret Grubb Hubbard of Bremerton, Washington, they having two children; that said Hubbard represented to plaintiff that he was single and unmarried. [Stamped: FILED Apr 23 1951, Harold Cecily, County Clerk]
4. Hubbard was a criminal
In 1979, whilst not living in France, was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to four years in prison. You can read sections of the court record translated into English here.
“… the french group of scientology was presenting itself falsely, as it sells services … and never its leaders did indicate that there was any possibility of failures…”
Even more telling is this quote from the same court record:
“Whereas it is proven fact that that method’s application was unable , used alone, to ensure the success in trade or in job, that it was in fact a mere hope of chimerical events, fallacious promises, those having done such promises being very aware that they could not be done…”
5. Scientology uses dirty tricks
The worst of these tricks is called Fair Game. The organisation claims to have ceased using fair game but many people have experienced harassment since that claim was made. What is fair game?
“May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.” Hubbard
As part of this fair game, Scientology members have created and distributed pamphlets full of lies and slander against people who have publicly protested against them.
In the recent panorama documentary you can actually see one of the leaders of the organisation in Florida slandering a man who is speaking to a reporter about the group. You can see part 1 of the documentary here.
6. Scientology has killed
Wikipedia explains this the best: Lisa McPherson (February 10, 1959–December 5, 1995) was a Scientologist who died of a pulmonary embolism while under the care of the Flag Service Organization (FSO), a branch of the Church of Scientology.
Following her death the Church of Scientology was indicted on two felony charges “abuse and/or neglect of a disabled adult and practicing medicine without a license”,[source] putting under trial the nature of Scientology beliefs and practices.[source] The heated controversy included regular pickets outside Scientology offices on or around the anniversary of her death until the year 2000. [source]
The charges against the Church of Scientology were dropped after the state’s medical examiner changed the cause of death from “undetermined” to an “accident” on June 13, 2000. [source]
A civil suit brought by her family against the Church was settled on May 28, 2004. [source]
7. Scientology is a rip off
When you first start out in Scientology, you pay about $15 dollars per course. You get about sixteen hours of “treatment” for that price. It sounds like a bargain. However, this is the last time you will see such a low price at the organisation.
The first series on the Hubbard hierarchy, auditing or processing, consists of several courses or grades, which enable a “preclear” to become a “clear.” If each course is taken separately, it costs approximately (the prices are always changing) $750 just to go from O-IV grade, $500 for the next one, $1,200 for Grade V (“Power Processes”), $775 for Grade VI, $600 for “Solo” (in which you audit yourself) and finally $800 for the final “clear” or a total of approximately $4,625, although package deals bring the price down a bit lower. For an extra $2,850 you can go on to OT level VIII. Interestingly, the group are planning to release a new OT IX very soon, which will no doubt cost a great deal more.
8. Scientology is anti-psychiatry
The Church of Scientology is opposed to psychiatry in a big way. The offer an alternative to psychiatry which has no founding in science whatsoever. The organisation has this to say in its psychiatry FAQ (This is the URL – I do not want to link it so you should copy and paste it if you want to have a look: http://faq.scientology.org/psychtry.htm).
“What the Church opposes are brutal, inhumane psychiatric treatments. It does so for three principal reasons: 1) procedures such as electro-shock, drugs and lobotomy injure, maim and destroy people in the guise of help; 2) psychiatry is not a science and has no proven methods to justify the billions of dollars of government funds that are poured into it; and 3) psychiatric theories that man is a mere animal have been used to rationalize, for example, the wholesale slaughter of human beings in World Wars I and II.
A number of psychiatrists have strongly spoken out against the Church of Scientology. After Hubbard’s book, Dianetics: the Modern Science of Mental Health was published, the American Psychological Association advised its members against using Hubbard’s techniques with their patients. Hubbard came to believe that psychiatrists were behind a worldwide conspiracy to attack Scientology and create a “world government” run by psychiatrists on behalf of the USSR.
Hubbard also decided that psychiatrists were an ancient evil that had been a problem for billions of years. He cast them in the role of assisting Xenu’s genocide 75 million years ago.
9. Scientology is un-scientific
Scientology is entirely man made. It is the invention of one man: L Ron Hubbard, science fiction writer. It has no basis in reality and teaches such concepts of aliens attaching “thetans” to human bodies by means of nuclear bombs in various mountains around the world.
When questions about Xenu (the evil overlord that comitted this act) Scientologists deny it, but leaked documentation verifies that it is, indeed, a part of their belief system.
Scientology, through its narconon organisation and auditing, tricks people into believing that they are getting help. They instruct people not to take psychiatric medicine (even in the case of sufferers of schizophrenia or other physically based mental disorders).
10. Scientology is a secret organisation
The Church of Scientology closes guards its secrets. On the few occasions that they have managed to leak on to the internet, the organisation quickly follows with lawsuits and threats. If you search for the OT level documents now, you will not find a copy (except for the first two which are available as court records). The swift and calculated responses from the group have managed to do what no other organisation or government has done – censor certain information from the internet. You can find out how to make a bomb on the internet, but you can not find out what you have to do to pass OT level VIII in the Church of Scientology.
Ironically, considering they are so secretive, it does not stop them using information taken from people they audit against them if they turn on the group. This would be the same as a person confessing to a priest, leaving the Church, and having the priest publish their confession on the internet and hand out fliers.
At all costs, avoid the Church of Scientology.
August 17th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545EU
here’s a video that explains alot about fair game and whatever
August 17th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Phil: thanks for that – it is very revealing. It does contain some rather nasty graphic images of some of the murders committed by the Church of Scientology. Disgusting.
August 17th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
“He cast them in the role of assisting Xenu’s genocide 75 million years ago”. out of all the things i have heard about Scientology this pissed me off the most.Heaven’s Gate ring a bell to anyone
August 17th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
mix2323: I remember heavensgate – I guess Hale Bop wasn’t the answer after all! If I can find the video clips of them saying goodbye to their families while they murder themselves I will post another list of bizarre videos (taking us to 40 bizarre clips!)
August 17th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
cool
August 17th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
I couldn’t agree more. Scientology makes absolutely no sense. I’m glad I don’t know any personally because I question the sanity and the I.Q. level of anyone who truly believes this crap.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Stephen – that makes two of us!
August 17th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Not to be difficult, but with minor changes, this list could be about any organized religion. Oh, wait, that’s why I don’t like organized religion! Never mind and keep up the good work.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Fe – I can think of a large number that don’t hate psychiatry.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Very informative. I can’t understand why anyone actually believes in this sort of thing. Anyone ever see the South Park episode trapped in the closet? Pretty Good episode.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
yea r-kelly comes out in that one
August 18th, 2007 at 5:41 am
That Xenu SOB scared the shit out of me when I scrolled down!
August 18th, 2007 at 6:33 am
jfrater, the fact that most religions will tell people with mental illnesses to ‘trust in the lord’ and downgrade the viability of therapy or a drug regimen to try and control mental illness is along the same lines as scientologies hatred of psychiatry.
Sorry, but confessing your sins to a priest isn’t the same as getting help from a professional, not everyone can meditate to relieve inner turmoil and being possessed by the holy spirit does nothing for me.
There are too many cases of people being left to flounder in their own minds, instead of being helped, because of some notion that god and the church will miraculously heal them.
August 18th, 2007 at 8:21 am
Fe: I think that scientology is almost totally unique in its hatred of psychiatry. Confession to a priest has nothing to do with your mind – it is to do with sins.
August 18th, 2007 at 8:55 am
jfrater: A person who has sinned, or who percieves that they have transgressed against another feels guilt, yes? For a person who is already mentally unbalanced, that guilt can send them over the edge. Confessing to a priest and being absolved is nice, but it does nothing for the root problem – a mental illness that is being untreated and with time will become worse.
Scientology is unique in the extent of it’s prejudice against psychiatry, but I can’t think of a religion off the top of my head that embraces the mind in the same way it embraces the soul. One’s soul might be pure, but the mind is a messy place and since most religions are based around absolutes, messy is pretty much anathema to them.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Fe – confession is not meant to solve psychological problems – it is meant to sacramentally forgive a person of their sins. If the guilt of a sin makes you mentally unstable, you need to see a therapist – not just the priest. Confession has only ever been about forgiveness – not psychological healing. The fact remains, Scientology is the only religion that spews such vitriol against psychiatry.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:25 am
jfrater, I’m aware of the reasoning behind confession. My point is, people are told that confessing ones sins to a priest will solve their problems. They are not encouraged to go to therapy because their god is supposed to cure them, their faith is supposed to support them. By going to therapy they are no longer putting their faith in god and that in itself is a sin.
I agree, Scientology is the only religion that is so overtly anti-psychiatry. I’m also saying that while most religions are not so hateful about it, none of them are real supportive of it, either.
Which is ironic, because what else is religion but the psychological need to understand the universe?
August 18th, 2007 at 9:34 am
Fe: people are not told that confession will solve their problems – they are told that confession will remove their sins. They are not discouraged from going to therapy because confession doesn’t fix mental illness. You have a big misconception about the theology of confession and are arguing against something that is just not true.
I recommend you read this – it will help you understand what the actual teachings are on confession.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:45 am
jfrater, there is the actual teaching of confession and then there is how people percieve it. My mom’s family is Catholic and whether or not that is how it is taught doesn’t really matter when compared to how people view it.
I admit, I am prejudiced against it, especially after my aunt was confined to a sanitarium. Her priest had told her repeatedly that if she just trusted in her lord, all her problems would be solved. She did and her problems went away, all right, into the ER for wounds afflicted by their mother.
I don’t like organized religion, I think it’s a willful delusion. Scientology is really no better or worse than any other religion, from my point of view. Religion is a sad game, played by people who really should know better.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:03 am
Fe – okay. It is not worth continuing to argue the matter. I have no problem with your beliefs. We just have to make sure we are arguing from facts not fiction. I am sorry to hear about your aunt.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Fe: One religion that takes into account the Connection to the Mind and Soul. Buddism. Transendence is the epitome of embracing the mind. There would be nothing I would like more than to become so “clear” in my thoughts that my body no longer mattered. In my Opinion, Scintology is nothing short of, as Mix put it, Cult. The last thing I would want in my religion is a blatent similarity to known organizations like Heavens Gate…
…Iv’e read these postings four times and Im not quite sure what the argument is…
August 18th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Crimanon: thanks for the comments – I must confess to be a little confused myself
August 18th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Nearly 4 decades ago I met up with a gal who had recently left the Church of Scientology. She’d been declared and expelled from Scientology for something she had done. She talked with me at length about it and how she had found peace through Scientology auditing. I loved the clean, easy way she had learned to communicate. Her beef was with the people who had been running the church where she had been taking services. It seemed to me like she had given up a very good thing because she was unwilling to take responsibility for what she’d done. She could have cleared it up if she’d put a minor amount of effort into it.
She warned me away from Scientology several times, saying it was a cult and I’d be sorry. But I could see what it had done for her and I wanted that. So I started taking courses and getting auditing myself, despite her dire warnings. Now, all these years later, I’m very glad I did. I stuck with Scientology through some rocky years, and it has indeed made me a better person in my own estimation. If I hadn’t, I would be dead of drug abuse by now. If not, and I had turned out anything like the rest of my family I would be a neurotic alcoholic. Now I own my own business, I’m not hooked on drugs, and I’m happy. You do the math.
Max
Scientologist and proud of it.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
somehow i doubt that Scientology deserves the credit for your success, Max. i think YOU were the determining factor, so give yourself a pat on the back.
i’ll never forget something Ravi Zacharias said in one of his radio broadcasts (it was the “Let My People Think” series), he said, “Never judge a philosophy by its abuse.” He had said that in response to atheist criticism of Christianity on the grounds that the Crusades had caused a lot of unwaranted bloodshed. I think that this maxim, “never judge a philosophy by its abuse” should not be forgotten.
some people in Scientology have used their authority to distort a good idea of helping people take control of there lives- this much is obvious. everything i hear about scientology involves claims of how they are all wackos. i personally don’t know what the overall character of the Church is like, but maybe Max is not the only person using the philosophy for good.
of course, there is always the possibility that Max is a propagandist working for the Church. how can we tell if he is sincere? i don’t know. everyone in america is so cynical and we don’t know who to trust or how far the tenticles of organisations’ powers extend.
philosophies are like samurai swords combined with the skill to use it. historically there were both beneficent samurai and vile, plundering samurai who victimized farming villages.
what determines how you use the sword is not who forged it or who trained you to use it. it is your OWN conscience.
maybe i am just an obsolete, old school humanist, but i believe that individuals are not corrupted/debilitated by a religious institution unwillingly.
a lot of people, maybe because of the growth of sociology, think that individuals are totally controlled by propaganda and cannot think for themselves.
the true answer- they are fooled not because they are unable to think for themselves but because they are naturally (sometimes genetically) unintelligent and inarticulate and naturally would believe a dumb idea.
not everyone is created equal.
so let’s all go to the Smart People party!!!!
WHEEEEEEE-YEAH!
August 18th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
A bit of an Ego, Eh Brennen. And thinking back On my rants, I remember there are actually Two main “Forms” of Scientology. Basic research and you’ll see that there are some people who have accepted the Scientology Doctrine without encumbrences of “The Church of”. Freezone Scientology has far more benifits. They arnt as likely to look down on you for seeking help from a psycologist, keep in mind they still don’t really approve. I still have my problems with some of the teachings, but hey, I still don’t like Catholisism either. Tom Cruse can kiss my *******************. John Q. from up the street, from Freezone Chapter Whatever is more than welcome at my parties.
As for the “they are naturally (sometimes genetically) unintelligent and inarticulate”. That was Uncalled for and Shows Yourself to be one of the Uneducated. Genetic deficientcies are not an excuse. Poor raising of children, lack of focus on the public education of said children, and people, call me a cynic, being crude and unjust. I don’t like pointing fingers but it’s that type of attitude that only furthers the Idealisms you where bashing.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
JF: odd thing about the time stamp on your pages, I’m posting this at 6:25pm.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
i take pleasure stating things eloquently even when they are uncalled for. stiring people to thought is more important to me than being uncontroversial. i am also a lighthearted jackass generally. nice to meet you.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
There is stirring thought and then there’s lack of tact. I tend to sway more to the thets discuss this over a beer. I’m a professional Asshole, like wise.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
both “poor raising of children” and “lack of focus on the public education” are excuses that reflect the extent to which Sociology has invaded the consciousness of Americans.
it has not always been the case that these parenting/education-excuses were widespread. children have not always been idealized as perfect tabula rasas fundamentally different from adults. universal public education is relatively new in history. parents used to treat their children like mini-adults and send them to work at a young age. then there came to be a so-to-speak Cult of the Child in industrial nations were children were thought to be fundamentally different like friggin’ pixies or faerie creatures.
my point: every excuse/explaination reflects a historical bias. every concept/prinicple which seems common sense to us is ultimately only common to the historical/national epoch that we were born into.
this is why i find it impossible to take refutations of my airy assertions or appeals to objectivity seriously.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:08 am
Bren: Because people are “Born to be Stupid”?
August 19th, 2007 at 1:08 am
is it true that the nature vs. nurture debate ends in a standstill?
August 19th, 2007 at 1:13 am
there are other ways to naturally be unintelligent and inarticulate besides the genetic route (if you’re in the market i can tell you a good dealer).
August 19th, 2007 at 1:24 am
Bren:to me there is no debate, definately not one against the other. Nature is only a step, lack of mental conditions helps a great deal with this. But no matter how much “good nature” a person has, you can still Screw them mentally. Conversly, Nurturing some one who is “Deficient”, can have possitives (ie; teaching good manners and how to act, with in there abilities, to be Atleast respectful in their manners.
I’m good, Pablo and I had a pretty bad falling out.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:39 am
my father’s name is Pablo.
August 19th, 2007 at 2:46 am
Um… About that…
August 19th, 2007 at 7:45 am
Crimanon: the timestamp thing – I hadn’t noticed that – I will look into it – I suspect it is using the server time to determine the timestamp.
Great comments from you all btw, I enjoyed reading them.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Duh, time zones I get it. Nevermind. In my haste I forgot that even though I’m American, it doesn’t mean the world revloves around me.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
After Random searches online, I find that my User name is also used as a rehabilitative organization, by The Church of Scientology. On that note:
Disclaimer: This user name is in no way affiliated with The Church of Scientology. Any Similiarities to this or any other Organization is completely coincedental. Please forward any comments to Yo Mama.
Have a nice day and Get Stuffed.
August 20th, 2007 at 1:46 am
Christianity has killed A LOT more people than Scientology…..
August 20th, 2007 at 5:08 am
As far as I can tell, Christianity has never killed anyone. The abuse of Christianity has killed, though. It was skewed beliefs and biased interpretation of religion that led to atrocities like the Crusades and the Inquisition.
August 20th, 2007 at 5:13 am
Brennan,
The nature vs. nurture debate is pretty outdated. Most psychologists and psychiatrists have come to the realization that nature and nurture work together. Both a person’s genetics and the way they are raised have an impact on how they develop.
A random comment… I thought it was interesting that L. Ron Hubbard regularly used cocaine. So did Freud.
August 20th, 2007 at 7:52 am
Crimanon: I did wonder about your nickname but figured it was a coincidence because of your comments which were clearly not pro-scientology
August 20th, 2007 at 8:07 am
Unfortunate really. My memory is so bad I forgot that I had gone out and wrote a few rants on the “New Cult Mentality” and “Tommy and the Watergun”. Anti-Scientology doesn’t have quite the Contempt that I feel is necissary. It helps to spit while you say it.
August 20th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Crimanon: haha – I was spitting the whole time I wrote the article
August 21st, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Great list! I would love to see one about the Top 10 Problems with Christianity (or any other religion for that matter). I do not believe Scientology, but come on, you can’t just pick on one religion and not the others. When you strip it down all religions seem crazy.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:25 am
anesb: I did a top 10 wicked Popes one and was hoping to eventually do a top 10 relating to all the major religions. It is just that Scientology was one I had recently been reading about so it made sense to go with that first
August 24th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Check your grammar and spelling. A few mistakes distracts the impact of your statements.
August 26th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
This is a terrific compiliation of the factual problems with Scientology. I wish I’d read this before I lost almost 3 decades to the church’s mental mindset of indoctrinated propaganda that made it so difficult to see the forest from the trees. Of those 3 decades, only 2 were actually spent as a member, the 3rd spent trying to reconcile myself back to the real world without thinking about scientology . It really took me 10 years to garner the courage to finally search the word Scientology on internet in order to get the facts about these very problems you listed here. And I am not one who scares easily.
There are some essential truths taught in scientology which Hubbard plagerized by calling them his own. Giving bits of truthful information with lots of misleading data is what trips up young curious minds in joining. The problem is that once you are in, to leave is like a death sentence. Friends and family must disconnect from you if they too are members and visa versa. The church’s Fair Game policy is real. Read about it over at wiki.
Lies are Scientology’s only commodity, fear is it’s trade. Money and free labor are the the main objectives and global power is the ultimate goal. Don’t believe otherwise.
August 27th, 2007 at 12:53 am
Mary: thanks for your comments – I am glad you finally found your way out and in to real life!
August 27th, 2007 at 1:00 am
Mary: Welcome back, Great site but the font is messing with me. I wish I could read it all in one sitting.
August 27th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Scientology is not worse or more false that any other religion. Most of the problems of the world are and always have been caused by religion. While Scientology is working hard to catch up, its disgraceful actions have a long way to go to catch up with Christianity, Islam, and other older religions.
August 27th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
49. jfrater, thanks! Great site, by the way
50. Crimanon, thanks and I do understand about my blog layout being difficult because of the fonts and background. My hope is to redo it once and get it right without losing anything. I am very slow at html and graphics but I’m hopeful I can find another layout that is easier on the eyes. Just have to do it without my kids around distracting me
51.James Smith, sorry you see things that way but you’re entitled to your opinion and I never allow myself to get caught up in disagreements about religion. Scientology is really a business masquerading as a church. It was set up as a church so as to get tax-exempt status. I was around during the days whenno one thought or considered it a church or a religion. It was a religious philosophy back then. It’s also a cult and far more dangerous than any other religion with the exception of the extremist of Islamics.
Read this policy letter and plan and you’ll see what I mean.
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
HCO POLICY LETTER OF 16 FEBRUARY 1969
Issue IV
REISSUED 24 SEPTEMBER 1987
Reissued with updated distribution.)
Confidential
TARGETS, DEFENSE
[...]
“Experience has shown that defense is only effective when one sorties or attacks. ”
http://www.suppressiveperson.org/hate/pubs/pl-1969-02-16-reiss-87-targets-defense-txt.html
Some religion, heh?
August 27th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
“Scientology is really a business masquerading as a church.” Exactly how does that make it different from any other religion? If you think it is more dangerous than other religions, perhaps you might consider abortion clinic bombings, protests against gay rights, and preaching hate and intolerance. All of those things have been going on for hundreds of years in Christianity.
Other religions have their distasteful aspects, too. Right now, Islam and the Christian Reich are just getting the most press.
Only when people learn to think for themselves will they be free of the yoke of religion.
August 29th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
This was great, you should do one about Mormonism, too. It’s VERY similar.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Amy is right. I would like to see that, too. Keep up the good work, please.
August 30th, 2007 at 12:21 am
Amy and James: I plan to do that, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses too.
August 30th, 2007 at 4:11 am
I like your approach. No “evangelizing” just put forth facts and allow them to speak for themselves. No wonder no one of any religion is disputing you. They can have nothing to say. But then, theists cannot stand facts. They disrupt everything they purport to believe. LMAO
August 30th, 2007 at 6:12 am
James: I was pretty surprised not to be attacked by Scientologists after this and the other post
August 30th, 2007 at 7:23 am
Great article. There would be a number 11 I would add to the list: (11) Scientology runs labor camps. Out in the desert of California is piece of land called Gold Base. On Gold Base the barbed wire surrounding the land faces inwards!, not to stop outsiders getting in but preventing their followers from leaving. There are similar camps in England and Copenhagen (Denmark). Scientology is a dangerous cult.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:47 am
The biggest mistake we as a free people can make about Scientology is to say that it is “no worse than any other religion.” This is absolutely untrue. No other ‘religion’ engages in systematic thought-reform programs like Scientology does. No other religion has a business plan like Scientology does. No other religion bullies its members the way Scientology does. No other religion is as controlling of its members, is as litigious, is as decpetive, is as anti-democratic, is as emotionally and psychologically abusive to its own members, or is as brutal to members that wish to leave as Scientology is. This controlling, greedy cult is trying to become mainstream, and we can NOT let their actions and tactics be thought of as OK for even a second.
I’d like to point out though, that those perpetrating the crimes of Scientology are also its victims. Falling prey to it has little to do with one’s intelligence or stupidity, it has to do with being wise to their deceptive practices.
August 30th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
“The biggest mistake we as a free people can make about Scientology is to say that it is “no worse than any other religion.”
No, then you think the Catholic church, for example, does not work to instill guilt, bullies its adherents through fear and brain-washing, is anti democratic or any of those other things? They are not usually as violent these days, but physical violence is not the only abuse one can hand out or even the worst.
This is certainly not a defense of scientology, which is definitely a cult and a very bad one, but an indictment of all organized religions. They are universally opponents of truth, freedom of thought, speech, and action. As far as being brutal, is not repression through fear and threats of eternal damnation brutal enough?
August 30th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Point taken, but I think there is a large difference in the degree to which Scientology does these things, compared with say the Catholic church. Scientology has a carefully mapped out, systematic thought reform program at work. They use hypnosis, FORCED confession (adult Catholics are encouraged, but never _required_ to confess, nor are confessions kept on record), group bullying, sometimes physical bullying, sleep and food deprivation, loaded language, information control to an extent that ‘normal’ religions DON’T engage in. Yes, Catholic Guilt is legendary. Yes, Catholics are encouraged to confess their sins. Yes, they use loaded language. I do not at all disagree that many organized religions engage in some (sometimes many) of these practices, but never as severely or deliberately as Scientology does. Never have I heard of an ex-Catholic being physically pursued or harassed by his or church in order to bring him or her back. Nor is a senior Catholic taught different things from a junior Catholic. The Catholic church isn’t deceptive about the time or financial commitment expected of its members. It is the severity of Scientology’s thought-reform programs, combined with with their deceptive tactics and money-bleeding that really set them on an entirely different level from, say, Catholicism.
By saying that “Scientology is no different from any other religion”, you seem to be inherently including the thought that “All organized religion is bad.” If that’s your opinion, you are certainly welcome to it. I only partially agree with that, but it’s an entirely separate discussion. What I worry about is that the general populace, not yet wise to Scientology’s tactics, will only hear that “Scientology is no different”, thus putting them into a category of acceptable things, the mainstream. This is what Scientology wants. They want to be a household name, with neutral, if not good, connotation associated with it. People need to be warned about the dangers of Scientology, and that they AREN’T the same as other religions.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Yes, I feel that ALL organized religion is bad. Most of the problems of the world have been and are caused by organized religion.
I would agree that Scientology is among the worst and I also partially agree about the physical harassment not being present in today’s Catholic church. But one only has to look back a little way to the Inquisition, for example, to see that has not always been true and may become true again.
I also agree with you that Scientology’s stance that they are not different from any other religion is a calculated deception. I do not agree that senior catholics are not taught differently from lay people.
The general populance are mostly sheep and not very intelligent sheep at that. Most sheep will run from wolves, while most people seem to welcome them even as they are being eaten.
August 30th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Would Jesus deny a believer entrance to heaven because a sibling, whose acts are beyond the believer’s control and responsibility, spoke ill of the Lord?
That is what Scientology is doing to my sister, i.e., excommunicating her because of my publicly expressed disagreements with Scientology. See my blog at http://thaddeusgadfly.com/tag/religion/scientology for more details.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
James: technically the Inquisition never went away – it just has a new name now: The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith – prior to becoming Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Ratzinger was in charge of it (currently Cardinal Levada is the head). The thing to remember though is that the Inquisition’s worst moments were at a time when the Church and the Kings were heavily interwoven. With democratized governments, the likelihood of a repeat is very small I think.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
James Smith, I think we got the point that you are anti organized religion.
Can we now move on back to the topic of the article? Thanks.
#64. Hi Thaddeus Gadfly, so sorry to hear that your sister disconnected from you because you have come out as against scientology. Have faith that in time this will change because when I was a member, I disconnected from family. 20 yrs later, I’m still reconnecting with some of them. I made terrible choices when I was in. Almost automatic responses without even considering the hurt I caused. All for the cause of the cult. I never gave up on reconnecting and you shouldn’t either. I’ll keep you and your sister in my prayers.
August 31st, 2007 at 3:43 am
jfrater: Thanks for that information. I hope you are correct about the church and government being disconnected. But it seems to be going the other way in the USA. You will notice that very few politicians dare to state they are non-believers even though their actions and lives say differently.
Mary, we have never left the topic. I suspect you are a member of some organized religion and do not want to hear anything negative about it. Suppression of dissent and free speech is a cornerstone of all religion, be it scientology, islam, christianity, or any other religion.
August 31st, 2007 at 3:49 am
James: oh – I was talking specifically about the Roman Catholic Church – I think the US system is more likely a joining of the Southern Baptist sect and US government if recent years are anything to go on!
August 31st, 2007 at 3:54 am
Hey, jfrater… me again
Loved that link you had there to the BBC story. I can’t believe how ridiculously childish Tommy Davis is. How can you be at the head of a “religion” and be so immature? He basically makes a laughing stock of his own belief system and proves that the reporter was 100% correct in everything he had to say.
Also, I’ve just lost all the respect that I had for Beck.
August 31st, 2007 at 3:59 am
jfrater: I have to agree with you on both points. Sadly, it seems you are correct about the USA. It’s one more reason why I do not live there any more.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:05 am
Wardrich: yeah – it is pretty embarrassing to watch!
James: Who knows what may happen in the future – good things hopefully. If Ron Paul were to become president there would be a lot of changes for the good I suspect.
September 1st, 2007 at 7:59 pm
James Smith… You are like the person that brings the tomatoes to the theater before they’ve even seen the show. You do nothing but criticize the ones that ARE doing something… like the author of this web page. (What’s the matter? … Couldn’t throw ‘all’ your tomatoes?)
It is likely that you have had a bad experience with religion… Well, get in line and shut up! Actual, Christian ‘religion’ has never harmed anyone. (Mis-guided religious zealots have harmed countless millions!)
One the other hand, … Scientology has harmed and killed MANY people and will continue to harm and kill many more, I’m afraid.
Please, James, … see the difference between Christianity and Scientology.
This is not a Christian-bashing forum!
This is (I hope), an effort to try to eliminate a dangerous CULT!
THANK YOU, JFRATER!
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:26 am
L. Ron-Ray: It is not a Christian bashing forum, correct, but it is not an anything-bashing forum. I don’t want my lists to appear like I am bashing any group – I am pointing out problems with the origins, but have pity for the people that have been tricked by this organization. Let’s all get along – debate is good but name calling isn’t. We don’t want people to shut up – we want to hear their views
September 2nd, 2007 at 4:16 am
L. Ron-Ray I have NEVER criticized the author of this page and have nothing but respect and praise for his efforts.
You think that “zealots” should be separate from the religion? By that logic, you could say that Scientology is mostly harmless. After all, the majority of its members are simply misguided sheep. But, like almost all other religions, its underlying purpose is control, suppression of dissent and free thought, and the extraction of money and services from its followers.
Christianity is as bad as scientology in that respect. So open your mind and see the facts.
September 4th, 2007 at 10:34 am
That’s completely incorrect. The misdeeds of Scientology are written into its ‘liturgy’–if you can call its library of training manuals that–as law, and are NOT subject to interpretation or discussion. Any deviation from the published word is taken as an Ethics violation, and is thus subject to punishment. Christianity as a religion does NOT engage in this kind of command-control. There is obviously plenty of material in Christian liturgy for zealots to use, like anti-homosexuality bits in Leviticus, but not all of the Bible is enforced by everyone. Not every church is a gay-bashing institution. NUMEROUS parts of Leviticus, like the instruction for parents to stone children that disobey them, are obviously ignored for the most part. Dissent and discussion is not forbidden from the religion (as a whole). Its necessary to qualify these with “as a whole” because command-control comes from the power of an individual church over its followers. Though they are all similar, no two Christian churches are run identically. Scientology churches/missions, however, ARE run identically. Any deviation from their voluminous edicts result in punishment, excommunication, and fair game policy.
September 4th, 2007 at 10:41 am
spninja: well put.
September 4th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course you are completely correct in everything you say. Christian churches have never hurt anyone nor engaged in intolerant behavior nor encouraged anyone to do so.
I do agree with your words on scientology, though. It is clearly an evil scam.
The most powerful force in the universe is that of self-deception. That would explain almost all religions, scientology in particular, and your beliefs, too.
September 4th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Awww, don’t be like that. I’m not at all saying that various, even numerous, Christian churches aren’t engaging in wrongdoings. Just that it is those churches’ interpretations of their liturgy and those in power in those churches that are the source of wrongdoings, rather than the liturgy itself or any kind of across-the-board policy. I agree that at the heart of any church of any religion, regardless of whether it’s conscious or not, is an issue of a desire to control and a desire to be controlled. But to say that Christianity is just as bad as Scientology is plain ignorant of the depths of the evils of Scientology. Some Christian churches brainwash their followers, extract money from them, abuse them or curtail their civil liberties, yes. But nowhere in the Bible does it say “hold up a spinning black and white spiral to hypnotize your followers”, “charge an exorbitant amount of money for services”, or “plaster dissidents’ neighborhoods with fliers spouting lies”, which it essentially does (not in those exact words of course) in Scientology.
September 4th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Other churches may not say those things “in those exact words” either. But it does not change the fact that they do those very things. Yes, scientology is the worst in that it specifically states that intimidation, aggression, and falsehoods are advocated against “fair game”. Kind of an ironic phrase when you consider that there is nothing fair in the intentions or actions of scientology.
September 5th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Love all of your pages.
I was recently sent this….
The pope dies and goes to heaven…
St. Peter..You are?
Pope..The pope, the head of Christ’s church on earth.
St. Peter..Nope you ain’t on the list
Pope.. but I must be because I am the head of Christ’s church on earth.
St. Peter.. Hold on I’ll ask him
St Peter tells Christ who bursts out laughing
St. Peter.. whats so funny
Christ.. Well you remember me,you and the guys started a fishing club……it now takes its self seriously.
September 5th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
haha, did no one mention that christianity killed a whole bunch of people in the middle ages?
September 5th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Whilst I agree that confession is not the total answer to any mental/emotional health issue perhaps it is a good first step. Guilt and his older sister shame thrive on lack of disclosure – being able to ‘confess’ our short comings, fears or mistakes might sometimes enable us to consider ourselves in a more balanced and compassionate light. Maybe for those who take this step the sense of being unburdened is enough, for others it may reduce the fear of talking to another person about our ‘darker’selves (remember there is a priest there too), thus paving the way for some form of ‘professional’ or interpersonal treatment or growth…just a thought.
September 6th, 2007 at 12:54 am
webbie: great joke – thanks
Thanks for all the comments guys. It is nice to see that we can all debate these issues without flame wars
September 6th, 2007 at 3:33 am
One thing I failed to mention was my personal experience with scientology. Some years ago in Tucson, Arizona, I amswered an ad for a free “personality test”. This turned out to be at the scientology center there. The “test” was rather ludicrous, but the “results” were worse. It wasn’t even an original score sheet but one that had obviously been photocopied several times.
They didn’t have enough respect for anyone to give them an original score sheet. To me, this said they were really looking for people that were so desperate or even stupid that they would believe anything. When I pointed out to them this incredible blunder, they could not answer. I suspect their training at that level had not prepared them for someone who could think for himself.
September 6th, 2007 at 4:48 am
James: that is interesting – thanks for sharing. They use those tests to trick many people in to the cult.
September 8th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the fact that Hubbard was also a racist.
“You shouldn’t be scrubbing the floor on your hands and knees. Get yourself a nigger; that’s what they’re born for.”
-Hubbard in a letter to his first wife
“The trouble with China is, there are too many chinks here.”
-Journal entry from 1928
While I suppose it doesn’t present a “problem” with Scientology per se, I think it further destroys Hubbard’s credibility as a spiritual leader.
September 8th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
lysander: very good point – thanks for adding.
September 10th, 2007 at 5:43 am
BBC Panorama investigate Scientology
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dwTDvfjcUJU
Scary stuff
September 10th, 2007 at 6:06 am
WeaseL: that is a very good documentary. Thanks for posting.
September 11th, 2007 at 7:39 am
I just don’t understand what their beef with psychiatry is. It’s meant to help the insane, so why the hell do they think it drives people insane?
September 11th, 2007 at 8:45 am
Richard: trying to find logic in Scientology is just not possible!
September 11th, 2007 at 10:18 am
Scientologists are taught that psychiatry is basically the root of all evil in this world. Here is the Church’s official stance on psychiatry: http://faq.scientology.org/psychtry.htm
Obviously, WWI and WWII were due to psychiatry. Obviously. ::smacks forehead::
As always, it’s important differentiate what an individual Scientologist believes from the agenda of the Scientology organization / Hubbard himself. Scientology is essentially a business in the mental health industry. Psychiatry poses a huge threat to them. They’re like Coke and Pepsi, except that Coke doesn’t try to bully or threaten you if you choose to stop drinking is, and Pepsi isn’t actually responsible for the Holocaust.
Fun game: try to spot all the glaring lies on that page!
September 11th, 2007 at 10:45 am
spinja: we could be here all night trying to do that!
September 11th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Pepsi Co. isn’t responsible for the Holocaust ?
Damn, I’m going to have to rethink my understanding of 20th Century history.
Seriously, though, IBM has a fair share of responsibility.
And that’s no joke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_IBM#IBM.27s_role_in_WWII_and_the_Holocaus
September 11th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
from that site spninja posted:
“1) procedures such as electro-shock, drugs and lobotomy injure, maim and destroy people in the guise of help; 2) psychiatry is not a science and has no proven methods to justify the billions of dollars of government funds that are poured into it; and 3) psychiatric theories that man is a mere animal have been used to rationalize, for example, the wholesale slaughter of human beings in World Wars I and II.”
Are lobotomies or electro-shock even used anymore? It sounds like they’re against procedures that have been abolished for years.
September 11th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
wardrich: I think lobotomy has virtually vanished now because of drugs, but electro-shock treatment is still widely (and very successfully) used. Wikipedia says this:
I personally know a woman who underwent the therapy a few years ago – she was a changed (in a very good way) after it. It is not the brutal thing that the Scientologists think it is, though it is still quite controversial.
September 13th, 2007 at 5:09 am
All posters will be sued. Please post your names and addresses below. We’ll get back to you.
September 13th, 2007 at 5:37 am
Tom: Hey – how are Katey and the baby? Caught up with Xenu lately?
September 14th, 2007 at 10:42 am
TOM: Sue them in my name, for I give ye power
EVERYONE BUY INTO MY RELIGION FOR I AM XENU
(side effects may include: depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, a mysterious murder, poverty, brainwashing and or the loss of all the mental foundations in your life)
September 14th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Xenu:
haveeat my babies!!!!1!1111!!!September 17th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Eh. I’ve been reading the assorted comments to this article and I have a few things to say (go figure, right?)
First, jfrater: Very interesting information, I’ve actually spent close to an hour hitting assorted links and information about the subject matter. Since I can rarely stay focused on one thing for more than a matter of minutes, I applaud you.
James Smith: I’ve read several arguments by you basically condemning organized religion; but the only examples I’ve seen from you pertaining to this have been based upon Christianity. Your argument that you can’t so easily separate religions from their fanatics is valid, but then again, religious groups aren’t the only ones that should be held to this standard. Purely historically, the Nazi party in the early 1930’s were the progressives; a man changed the course of the organization to infamy.
Whether it’s the Crusades, the Inquisition in the past, and more recently seen in Rwanda during the massacres (one of millions of examples that anyone could pull out of a hat), people fuel the problems and twist the principles towards their own gains much more often than the pure religious or organizational doctrine tell anyone to do so. Not agreeing in a religion is fine; blatantly condemning them for the evils of the world is entirely different.
Whether you believe in something larger than yourself; not just religion, but any group; you are responsible for your actions. I’d be hard pressed I’m sure to find any of the current presidential candidates that believed in every single one of their parties platforms.
Sorry for the rant, but the point is this: no matter how “shaped” the individual is, it’s a person that makes the final decision, or a person that persuades another to do something. The organization itself; Scientology in this case, may be perfectly valid or the crock I’ve been reading about here and in other places. It was refined into it’s present form though, just like all groups are, by a small group of people that choose according to their beliefs and desires. Nothing is inherently evil or faulty… except maybe us.
September 17th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
“If you search for the OT level documents now, you will not find a copy.”
I wonder if you could find them on torrent sites.
September 17th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Chad: Yes, I have come down on Christianity quite a bit. For one thing, it is the one with which I am most familiar. For another, it and Islam are currently the two that are gathering the most press. But, to be fair, I am against ALL religions. I have said before, most of the world’s problems are and have been caused by religion. I agree it is because of the people involved. They invent a system that allows them to control the thoughts and actions of others. That they do it through lies and tricks only means they are evil themselves; much as you said.
Any religion is necessarily based on falsehoods. There is more evidence for the existence of fire-breathing dragons than there is got any god of any description. The fact that so many people subscribe to some religion or another is simply proof of my belief that the greatest power in the universe is that of self-deception.
September 17th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Robert: great idea – I will see if I can find them tomorrow.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:09 am
James:
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:48 am
Chad, you have missed the point. Most likely that is my fault for not being more explicit. The fact is, there is no god or gods that is aware of and intercedes on the affairs of men. To subscribe to a belief in that is self-delusion.
I have never said that religious groups do no good at all. The would be patently ridiculous. What I am saying is that what little good that has been done in the name of religion is far, far outweighed by the harm it has done. The hate, violence, and intolerance practiced in the name of religions is but a small part of the harm. The wasted resources of time, effort and money expended in the glorification of “god” is an excellent example. When you see a great cathedral or monument to religion ask yourself, “who occupies these piles of stone? God or self-appointed ‘representatives’ of some god?”
How much more good would have been accomplished if these same resources were expended on education (NOT religious brainwashing) and improving the lot of people be providing medical care and programs to improve their lives? Religions prefer most people to be poor and uneducated. They are much easier to control then. Also, uneducated people are far less likely to start thinking for themselves. That is always bad for any religion.
As far as a “wildly off kilter” creature, where is the least shred of evidence for any highly advanced being? Even if there were, it would not be the “god” so many worship. All of the religious practice there has ever been would not be at all significant to it.
Yes, I do condemn all organized religion. If there were a hell, it would certainly be filled with religious “leaders” and most of their hypocritical followers.
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:37 am
James, I think the main difference between Scientology and Christianity is that the term ‘Christianity’ is an umbrella term. There are many different forms of Christianity, from Catholics, to the Southern Baptists, Protestants, Presbyterians, Mormons, etc. All of these forms of Christianity have different beliefs and traditions. For example, I was raised as a Southern Baptist. Once I reached high school, I was constantly told that I was going to hell because I questioned some of the Bible, saying that I believed it was mostly metaphorical and not literal. This did not go over well. I now attend (a few times a year…) a Presbyterian church, where questions and different opinions are welcomed, and even the minister shares my beliefs. I am a Christian, but I am a pro-choice, evolution believing, gay marriage supporting Christian. I believe that God gave us free will to make our own decisions.( the bible also says that god created the earth, but it doesn’t say exactly how. I believe he started the wheels and let evolution take it’s course) I prefer to use the Bible as a guide, and actually READ it. If anyone would read it, they would see that Jesus and the Bible encourage love and acceptance, even if you have differing opinions. It is people that distort Christian beliefs, it is not Christianity its self. There are churches full of people who share my beliefs, and there are churches full of people like my father who twist the scripture into something horrible to be used against others. It all comes down to the individual person, not the religion. I love all of the comments on this page, everyone is articulate and intelligent!
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Amanda, I was raised as a Presbyterian until I began to think for myself at about age 12. So I am quite familiar with it. Perhaps you can ask your minister this: Show one single proof of the existence of any god at all. Something that can be verified by independent, even hostile observers. After all, If I had claimed I invented an anti-gravity machine, everyone would want me to prove it and not “take it on faith.”
I agree that Scientology is one of the worst examples of religion one could find. But that does not mean that Christianity is not a scam, too. The basis of all organized religion is to permit a small group of people to control the thoughts and actions of a large group of people. I have to admit, it does it very well; much to the benefit of the small group of people.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:45 pm
amanda: I agree with you – the people posting here are really doing so in a very level-headed way – while we don’t all agree, at least we are not fighting. I am quite proud of everyone here
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Well James, different people see ‘proof’ differently. I also for a period of time thought that there was no God, until I had my son. Then it changed for me. Personally, the proof that there is a God is shown in my child’s eyes, in the ocean, in the trees. It’s everywhere to me. I don’t ‘take it on faith’. I understand that you may see it differently, and I’m not trying to change your perception, but to millions of people these things that may seem small to you are irrefutible proof in God. I am going to assume that you are an athiest, judging by your postings. I have a question about that. Do you believe in Hell or in the Devil? It is a serious question, I’m just curious because someone told me that many Athiests believe in the Devil, but not God. I would like to get it from the source if that’s true or not, simply because I like having correct info in my head! And about Christianity being a scam. We may very well find out that it is. In the meantime, I don’t see the harm if it helps someone to get off drugs, or gives them a feeling of purpose. I do see the problem with people using it to belittle others, but if it makes someone feel whole then more power to them.
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:24 pm
I have named myself an “Evangelical Atheist” LOL No, I do not believe in any god nor in the devil, hell, or any type of afterlife that could have any meaning here. As far as seeing god in nature, or my children, no, not there, either. I could as easily say I see god in a Pepsi bottle (2-liter size, of course) and it would make as much sense as be as effective.
Religion may be a crutch for some people to get off drugs or whatever, but that certainly does not prove the existence of any deity. All it shows is that the power of self-deception is working in different ways. If that is all that religion did, there would be no problem with it. But far too often, it is used to teach guilt, hate, and intolerance. You know that from your own experience. The fact that the “moderate” theists do not take strong measures to stop this shows that, on at least some level, they approve.
A good example of this would be the “moderate Muslims”. What steps have any of them taken to stop or even to condemn the extremists who are practicing terrorism all over the world today? If you do not combat evil, you are giving tacit approval. Who was it that said, “all that evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing.”?
For that matter, what have the ordinary scientologists done to stop the “fair game” practices of their own cult?
As for the harmless aspect of religion. It is not. As I mentioned above, it uses resources that would be better spent on improving the human condition.
Yes, there are religion-sponsored programs to assist people in underdeveloped countries. But I suspect they make the participants feel better than the recipients. They are also thinly-disguised recruitment campaigns. I have relatives that have been on these in Central America and I have seen how they actually work. Not well, at all.
September 23rd, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Of all the religions and cults that have ever existed, this one seems to cause little Harm.
Mankind will not be free from religion until it has an answer to all questions! This will never happen. I have no belief in a god, but this does not mean there is one… Following a religion that has unanswred questions is pretty stupid, following a religion which has unanswred questions that never needed asking is mindblowing. This religion has it’s use, it keeps all the idiots in one place so we know where they are!
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:40 am
I had a boyfriend many years ago who begged me to let him move in with me, so the the “Church” of Scientology couldn’t find him. Proof enough for me that is is an organisation to steer well clear of.
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:04 am
Barb, you have a very good point here. But I have to suspect he may have had other reasons, too. Like perhaps he really liked you? But I doubt that moving in with you would have concealed him from the Scientology Gestapo for long.
I wonder that they are not hunting down people on here. I, of course, am safe in Brazil where they are not permitted. LOL
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:59 am
James: I keep waiting for the knock at the door
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:36 am
I’ll be honest with you, I am kind of afraid of them. They’re ruthless and mean when they get pissed off. I just wish maybe I could talk to ONE, and when they start reacting the predictably crazy way they will, just point it out to them: SEE, SEE WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO YOU, THAT IS NOT THE REACTION OF A NORMAL PERSON. YOU’VE BEEN CONDITIONED INTO BEING PART OF THEIR GESTAPO!
And I live in an area where they are not too strange a sight to see. meep!
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:45 am
spninja: I guess that is the same for all people who are brainwashed – it doesn’t matter whether you point it out to them – they are oblivious to it.
October 9th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
I have personally used Dianetics and Scientological methods for a very long time. Dianetics is a PROVEN SCIENCE, which works 100% of the time if applied as per the literature. The author of the Web site http://listverse.com/bizarre/top-10-problems-with-scientology/
is entirely mistaken (or is lying) because what he posts here is entirely fabricated. Scientology has historically uncovered the abuses of psychiatry where local police were helpless to investigate. I have PERSONALLY used my knowledge of Dianetics to uncover several such scams myself (Google “2001-HL-0066″ to see results of ONE such investigation).
The Church of Scientology published free literature which educates the public about psychiatric fraud. I have collected a bunch of it which you can download free on http://www.Net4TruthUSA.com/cchrlinks.htm
Before you believe the LIES propogated about Dianetics, Scientology, and L Ron Hubbard, you should check out the information for yourself first-hand. It costs you NOTHING, and it will prevent you from believing the LIES that keep you from discovering one of the truly remarkable sciences of modern times.
October 9th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
David, FYI, I HAVE personally checked out Scientology and Diantetics. They are both as bogus as the one million dollar bill a guy tried to cash this week. Maybe he was trying to make enough to pay his scientology fees? LOL
They are there to take your money and that is all. They are also a violent, dangerous group that is not to be trusted. If you believe their arrant nonsense, their brainwashing must have really gotten to you.
Yes, it is true that if you live well, eat right, exercise, and take care of yourself mentally and physically, things will be better for you. No one needs L Ron Hubbard’s lies to know that.
It has been proven so many times that scientology is a total scam I am always amazed that anyone can fall for it. But then, people fall for things just as stupid, so why not?
October 9th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Ahhh, it’s about time the drones came out!
@ “David”: if Dianetics is a “PROVEN SCIENCE”, then I think we’d all absolutely love to see the studies that were conducted. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I pretty sure that there has been only ONE study ever conducted (http://xenu.net/archive/fischer/), and it concluded that :
“(1) dianetic therapy does not exert a systematic influence either favorably or adversely upon intellectual functioning;
(2) dianetic therapy does not exert a systematic influence either favorably or adversely upon mathematical ability; and
(3) dianetic therapy does not exert a systematic influence either favorably or adversely upon the degree of personality conflicts.”
Are the “studies” that Hubbard himself conducted even part of Scientology or Dianetic literature? Or merely the repeated claim that Dianetics works “100% of the time”?
October 13th, 2007 at 4:58 am
It failed to mention Hubbard was once an understudy to Alister Crowley and one of his famous quotes that is something along the lines of “You can’t get rich writing science fiction, If you want to make money create a religion”
October 13th, 2007 at 6:57 am
Ben: Bulls eye! I wonder why none of the rest of us had remembered that? It is, after all, a well-known statement. Thanks for putting that up for everyone.
October 24th, 2007 at 7:23 am
LOL, did enyone else watch the program on BBC about scientology, they are trying to blame world war 2 on psychiatry as theyr attempt of world domination
i think L Ron Hubbard stuck to writing science fiction, this would hav made a great book, lol ALIENS who would have thought aliens would be in this.
October 24th, 2007 at 7:30 am
Callam: I have seen it – they are totally nuts!
November 6th, 2007 at 5:42 am
Let me start off by saying I am an atheist. I am not playing favorites, because I dislike organized religion in all its forms.
With that out of the way, I personally feel that Scientology is one of the more dangerous religions out there. I hesitate to even call it a religion because it has almost nothing in common with any of the more popular ones.
One of my main complaints about organized religion is that the leaders convince the followers to do things they normally wouldn’t. Psychotherapy has been scientifically proven to be effective…religion has not. Some religions are against blood transfusions, some are against medicine, but Scientology takes it to a whole new absurd level.
I believe that Scientology is right up there with the Peoples Temple cult (Jonestown), the main difference is that Hubbard was smooth enough to amass a relatively large following, and they haven’t committed mass suicide or murdered a congressman yet. I’m waiting for the explosion when one of the leaders decides it’s time to “clean house”.
November 6th, 2007 at 5:54 am
Mr Mojo: I am with you on that completely.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
another problem, L Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer. i mean, if people are to believe about the whole story with Zenu, they must be mental.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rD9bCdHqU3s
This is a good piece of investigative reporting that I hadn’t seen before, and addresses some of the problems that I hadn’t seen addressed elsewhere, like the psychologically damaging aspects of Scientology.
Their belief in space aliens is by far the most innocuous aspect of them, except for the fact that one needs to pay at least $300,000 to hear the Xenu story. Most Scientologists DON’T believe that, not because they disbelieve it, but rather because they have not been taught that story YET. Don’t judge them by that belief. Anyone is allowed to believe anything they choose. However, a group should NOT be allowed to engage in thought reforming tactics, emotional abuse, and extortion.
November 12th, 2007 at 5:45 am
Wow, we have quite a bit of hatred for theology. I’ve notice with a lot of ppl who enjoy bashing Christianity…their “logical” explanations as to why it is inherently bad comes after they have had a bad or emotional problematic experience with religon.
Their cynical attitude comes after, by an experience but usually not specifically due to the religon.
I think a telling difference between scientology and legitimate religon is the use of money. Though it is a part of religon Christianity only asks for tithes. It is not the Bible’s fault if a corrupt priest and preacher sends around the second offering plate.
Scientology cannot vouch for that. And Hubbard just sounds like an overall asshole.
Just like Ayn Rand who wrote Anthem and made the philosophy Objectivism…both her and Hubbard made their philosophy and Hubbard, later, this religon based on nothing but the fact that….they could
“I’m a writer…I have ppl who like my writing..I think I’m the shit…I’m going to make a religon.”
That would be somewhat badass if it was anyone but him or they were sexy…I’d follow a religon if it was made by Angelina Jolie or Beyonce.lol
November 12th, 2007 at 6:09 am
Xay Xay, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I did have a “bad emotional experience” with religion. It happened when I was about 12 and started thinking for myself. I was very upset when I realized that everyone had been lying to me all my life.
I also realized that nothing in any religion matched observable facts. I also realized the observed behavior of people was far from their professed beliefs and that the reported behavior of “god” was not that of the supposed “loving father”, either.
In short, is is all a scam and deep inside, most people know it. That’s why they give lip service to a religion for social, political, and business reasons. Hypocrites, all of them.
November 25th, 2007 at 5:30 am
After reading the list, I’d say the problem with Scientology numero uno should be: IT EXISTS!
December 7th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
“[...] If you search for the OT level documents now, you will not find a copy [...]”
Hah. Try Freenet. (http://freenetproject.org/ )
December 9th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Anyone else think that L.Ron lokks like NHL coach Mike Kennan? Just an observation…
Interesting posts everyone. Almost as good as the dreams list. It’s nice to see intelligence instead of just plain stupidity.
December 9th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Bob: that is one of the things that makes me keep writing lists every day – the comments are all intelligent and thoughtful
Well – mostly 
December 20th, 2007 at 5:15 am
“This would be the same as a person confessing to a priest, leaving the Church, and having the priest publish their confession on the internet and hand out fliers.”
Incidentally, a priest who makes any leak of confession will get excommunicated. (“The more you know!”)
December 29th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Hey, whaddya gonna do. People can believe in whatever they like, even a completely fabricated ‘religion’ which many of us see as essentially comedic. If that’s what you want, then go for it. Just keep in mind that by the same token I have the right to laugh at you for believing in Xenu. Oh, and for the posters who say it did them some good, well I’m sure we could find some people for whom the Nazi regime were the good old days. Heh-heh-heh. ‘Xenu’.
December 30th, 2007 at 5:28 am
Slammerworm, you make some good points. Although “Completely fabricated religion” seems to be a redundancy. Heh Heh
I agree that people should be free to believe what they choose. They are going to do that anyway. It’s when they are trying to impose those views on me either through violence, threat of violence, or rule of law (another kind of implied violence) that I strongly object.
December 30th, 2007 at 5:47 am
Ahhh!!!! My memory hurts!!! forgot until just recently, about a hour ago, Marilyn Vos Savant, currently the worlds “Smartest Person” is a Scientologist. check out the comments section in the “Top 10 Geniuses”. It’ll make you think twice about Intelligence.
December 30th, 2007 at 6:28 am
Is Marilyn still listed as “smartest person”? That was quite a while ago she had that, decades I think.
At any rate, intelligence test mostly measure how well you agree with the opinions of the people that wrote the test.
It also shows that even very smart people do not always think for themselves. Perhaps as a result of spending too much time in academia, where original thinking is discouraged.
December 30th, 2007 at 6:46 am
since when has scientology been “Running with the Crowd”?
December 30th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Wouldn’t it be even worse if a group covertly tries to impose its belief structure, rather than being straightforward about it? I think thats the big difference between cults and non-cults, regardless of whether they are religious in nature or not. Scientology preys on people in a way that most other groups don’t. Forget about their being a ‘church’; there are plenty of other cults that are not religious in nature that do VERY similar things. Most scientologists don’t even know the Xenu stuff, because they aren’t taught that until they are deep into the cult.
Nobody should criticise their beliefs, but everyone should criticise their deceptive recruiting practices and mistreatment of their members.
Also that’s a very interesting point about a test measuring how much you agree with its author. Those personality and stress tests they give were ripped off from another test, but the “correct” answers were all determined by Hubbard himself. HMMMMM
December 30th, 2007 at 11:09 am
I think a lot of religious organization do try to impose their beliefs covertly in the guise of it being “For your own good” or “to protect the children”, etc.
Why should we not criticize beliefs? Believers never hesitate to criticize other’s beliefs or lack of them. They often do so most stridently with name-calling and even threats.
It’s been said on here before, but one can question, criticize, or demand proof of anything except religion. That, we are supposed to accept without question or doubt, no matter how ridiculous.
December 30th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
We shouldn’t criticize someone’s personal beliefs because we live (or at least some of us do) in a country where the freedom to believe whatever you want is highly valued. “But they do it!” is a pretty immature attitude to take if you ask me, but you can argue that it’s within your rights to criticize, and you’d be right, so I’ll leave it at that.
I don’t think that’s covert at all. Presenting a why for a belief is not at all like conditioning or manipulating a person into obedience without their knowledge. You might argue that religions manipulate people, but they really do not do it the way Scn does. Scn has precise, formulated tactics to evoke thought reform. Most churches (the majority that are not cult-like in nature) do NOT. Guilt bodies fear of eternal damnation are manipulative themes, but Scn goes well beyond mere themes. They SYSTEMATICALLY break down your concepts of identity and replace them with their own. I’m sorry, but most churches simply do not do that.
December 30th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
I have to disagree. Most churches do systematically brainwash their belief systems into people. What else would you call forcing children to attend special schools every week and made to memorize and repeat things they don’t really understand?
Even as they grow up, they are not permitted to question or examine these things but are expected to accept them without thinking, without examining the facts. The pressure exerted on them by parents, teachers, and “authorities” (most self-appointed) is tremendous.
Those methods are precise and have been honed over centuries to produce the unthinking robots that most theists become.
Do you think Ron Hubbard came up with all those techniques by himself? He was not that smart. Anyone that has read his books could see that he was not.
December 30th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Sunday school hardly qualifies as systematic brainwashing. Children aren’t put in a hypnotic trance, or deprived of sleep, or made to become utterly dependent on the group at Sunday school. They aren’t subjected to having their personalities broken down and rebuilt. And not only is Sunday school voluntary on the part of the parent, it is straightforward in what it is teaching. Arguing that the child has no say is moot because children in general have little say in most of their life until they’re old enough to make their own decisions.
In most churches of course you’re allowed to ask questions. Are you implying that there has never been any theological debate? Sure, maybe one is taught that the Bible is the ultimate authority on whatever, but there is no unilateral interpretation of the Bible, and I doubt that anyone in a non-cult church has been punished for looking for their own answers in the Bible. Compare with Scientolgy, where literally zero interpretation is tolerated. If you don’t understand something in church, or at Sunday school, you can ask and you’ll receive an explanation. It might be an answer in the context of the liturgy or within a specific interpretation of the liturgy, but there WILL be some bidirectional communication. Ask at a Scn class, and you’ll be told that you misunderstood a word, and to go look it up in the dictionary. Communication is completely one-sided.
And no, he didn’t invent the techniques, he consolidated techniques that have been employed by many a gulag.
ALSO he totally does look like Mike Keenan! If he could lead the Rangers to another cup, i’d consider following him too. Maybe he could postulate some offense.
December 30th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Apparently, you were never forced to go to Sunday School or Vacation Bible school. It IS brainwashing. And no, you may not question anything.
If you do not understand something, you may ask for an explanation, but you are required to accept whatever explanation is given without questioning the legitimacy of either then answer or the person giving the answer. This is hardly two-way communication.
Who is Mike Keenan? (I know nothing about Hockey)
December 30th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Some two way communication is infinitely more than zero two way communication.
I did go to Sunday school, and it was nothing like that. I’m sorry you had to go through something like that, that was obviously at least a little traumatic for you. Not every Sunday school is like that, though. Be glad you didn’t go to the same camp as in the documentary “Jesus Camp,” which in a related note is airing on A&E tonight. I’m tivo’ing it!
Google mike keenan to see what he looks like. Sorta like Hubbard but not as fat. He coached the NY Rangers to their Stanley Cup in 1994.
December 30th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
james: when was the last time you were in a “sunday school”? alot of what you are saying is nothing like what i have known or experienced. you say “What else would you call forcing children to attend special schools every week and made to memorize and repeat things they don’t really understand?”
understanding is the goal of every theology based class i have ever been in. any sunday school teacher worth their salt would not be happy with a person who gives the right answers but lives in contradiction to that.
also if your quote above is true, then just about every class you ever attended is brainwashing you into a cult. i sat in many science/math/history classes from 1st grade through post-graduate work where i was made to go up to 5 times a week and memorize and repeat things i didn’t understand.
you also said “Even as they grow up, they are not permitted to question or examine these things but are expected to accept them without thinking, without examining the facts. The pressure exerted on them by parents, teachers, and “authorities” (most self-appointed) is tremendous.”
the size of this stereotype is amazing. it sounds like you are making decisions without examining the facts. who are these “self-appointed” authorities you speak of? specifically, what is the “tremendous” pressure that they exert?
i would love to have a discussion about particulars but all of these generalizations keep the truth from surfacing and keep you from understanding a beautiful part of humanity.
December 30th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
IT sounds to me as though you are a “true believer” in some religion. If so, there is no point in discussion it with you as facts, logic, and observable truths will have no effect on you. Religion is a matter of conditioning and emotion. No amount of truth will affect what people want to believe.
I was forced to attend religious instruction every week of my life until I was 13. I stopped believing any of or when I was 12 and started thinking for myself. Blame that on my parents. They always told me to “think for yourself.” I doubt they ever considered what might happen if I actually did it, though.
I never make decisions without examining the facts. The facts are, there is more evidence for the existence of unicorns than there is of any god or religion based upon one.
What is beautiful about religion? It is based upon lies that are designed to permit a small group of people to control the thoughts and actions of a larger group.
We can discuss it off line as much as you like. No one has lasted more than a few exchanges with these discussions because I don’t play fair. I insist upon provable facts.
slrman@terra.com.br
December 30th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
we are all “true believers” in something, either a religion or our own ability to find truth.
i noticed you didn’t answer most of the questions i asked.
is normal schooling a brainwashing method?
do you think an average sunday school teacher would be happy with understanding that doesn’t change a life?
which religous leaders are “self appointed”?
what is the pressure that is exerted?
religion is beautiful becuase one of the main faults of humanity is a nasty selfish streak. religion points people to serve others and give what is valuable away to take care of the needs of others. this is one of the benefits. there are many more.
December 30th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
I notice that you did not respond to my invitation to take this off this forum.
Yes, normal schooling is often Brainwashing. Or do you believe everything you were taught there, too? No one ever made any mistakes or told you things that they had to know were not true?
Yes, I know the average Sunday school teacher is perfectly happy with what they are saying because they never stop to think if what they are saying is true or even plausible.
All religious leaders are self-appointed. They have established powerful organizations to appoint each other and to protect their monopoly on there scams.
The pressure is from parents, teachers, peers, and other “authority” figures.
Religion is not selfish and nasty? How do you then account for terrorist bombings (and not just islamists), the inquisition, the crusades, and church support of slavery, denigration of women, and the aforementioned brainwashing?
For every “benefit” you name, we can examine lots of things that benefit only the churches, not the people in them. If you are so inclined, you have my e-mail. Otherwise, we are finished.
December 30th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
why do you want to talk about this elsewhere? this is the joy of this web site. we can disagree about the purpose of religion, whether or not lara croft is a movie badass and talk about the usefulness of pet products all in the same location. this also invites everyone to the party, not just you and i.
if normal schooling is brainwashing then is there such a thing as good brainwashing? i would assume that we would agree that sending kids to school is a good thing. if so, then you definition needs some refining.
being someone that has struggled mightily with what is true and right, i would have to disagree that religous people “never stop to think if what they are saying is true”. if religion is true, to knowingly misrepresent a higher power to an impressionable child without ever checking to see if it is true seems like a poor choice. what i mean is, if i believe in God i should represent him accurately. this would require learning and study. to portray the believer as an ignorant person, in the sense of lack of information, is just not true.
isn’t the job of parents, teachers, peers and authority figures to live out whatever they believe to be true? if this is the case, why is religion being singled out when what book to read, how to play a sport properly and how to take care of the enviornment is all passed along by parents, teachers, etc.?
hasn’t all of humanity, outside of religion, bombed things, fought wars and supported that which is evil? why does religion get the bill for the bad things that have happened?
December 30th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Steady on lads, let’s have another perspective.
‘Brainwashing’ is essentially a pejorative term. Fundamental ‘three ‘Rs’ education aside, schooling is acculturation more than it is deliberate ‘brainwashing’. Of course, this depends upon the school under question. There are several religious schools and colleges in which theology is taught alongside readinritinrithmatic. For some people, equipping their children with the intellectual tools necessary for survival includes inculcating a spiritual dimension. Personally I don’t think we should burden children with religious concepts until they are old enough to be able to do something about it themselves. Teaching very young children prayers by rote does seems a bit ‘indoctrination’, so we have a sliding scale on ‘is schooling brainwashing’, with religion as the tipping-point.
Religions do deserve contempt for involving themselves in armed conflict because virtually all of them preach peace. Also, it’s morally questionable on a motivational level. There’s a difference between saying ‘I’m taking your stuff’ and ‘I’m taking your stuff because God said it’s ok’. It’s an abdication of responsibility at heart.
December 30th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
James Smith, while I agree with you that extremist religion often leads to violence, I do NOT think that religion is the direct cause of that violence. If people weren’t killing eachother over religion, they would find some other stupid reason to. When it comes down to basic instinct, humans are brutal animals who more often then not have their own desires as the top priority.
December 31st, 2007 at 5:00 am
sdgrant, you make a good point. But religion is STILL the #1 reason people attack one another.
I also agree that, for most people, personal convenience is the most important thing in their lives. It transcends truth, justice, and simply being a decent human being.
DiscHuker, the reason I offered to take this away from this forum is this one is supposed to be about Scientology, not religion in general and the basic human condition.
This forum has been very graciously provided and maintained for us and I think we owe it to that provider to treat it respectfully and not clutter it up with long discussions of a different nature. Yes, I know, I started it. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
December 31st, 2007 at 10:53 am
I’ll try to bring it back a bit. I think you’re using the term “brainwashing” too liberally. I can’t quote the whole section of the book, but in Margaret Thaler Singer’s book, “Cults in Our Midst,” she gives a table discussing the continuum of influence and persuasion. The categories she gives are education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination, and thought reform. Would you not agree that each of those, while all dealing with influencing or persuading others, are in fact different? I think they are. Calling any type of class or religious instruction “brainwashing” does a disservice to victims of actual coercive thought reform; it’s tantamount to saying it doesn’t exist, since we all were “brainwashed” by the public school system.
I think that’s my greatest beef with James, that he seems unwilling to consider that there is a difference between brainwashing and other types of persuasion, between religious extremists and your average church-goers, between the type and intensity of persuasion employed by Scientology and that by most other institutions, religious or otherwise. He seems perfectly content to indulge in the same flavor of unthinking prejudice that he accuses religions of effusing. Honestly, I agree that any kind of organization of people is created with the purpose of controlling people to SOME degree, but it does not necessarily constitute an abuse of power, or malicious intent. The possibility for power abuse is part of the organization itself, not the nature of the goals of the group. Groups like Greenpeace or PETA have the same potential for abuse as other moralistic groups like religions or political parties. But so does the Boy Scouts, or 4H, or the Kiwanis, or a company, or the army, or Habitat for Humanity. Exploitation is not inherent in organization, and cults are at a far end of the spectrum. Exploitation in general derives from an individual’s abuse of power, whereas a cult is a closed system devoted entirely to the recruitment, exploitation, and retention of members, beyond that of any other type of group. Not all cults are religious in nature.
December 31st, 2007 at 11:24 am
spninja, You are simply far too generous with groups. Brainwashing, by any definition, is the indoctrination of false thinking in another by mental or physical persuasion.
Yes, it is true that some forms of brainwashing are more innocuous than others. But mostly, the indoctrination that takes place in the school system is not intentionally false. That done by religions, political groups, and yes, Greenpeace and PETA is often knowingly a lie.
I am right in that brainwashing is a general term and the techniques are used far more liberally than you choose to believe. One of the wisest things I have ever heard is, “Beliefs, no matter how sincerely held, do not alter facts.”
Abuse of power is as widespread as eating. Perhaps you have heard that “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
Most of the groups you mentioned do abuse their power to further their own agenda. Believing, no doubt, that the ends justify the means. After all, “It’s for your own good.” I am reminded of a Robert A. Heinlein quote about that.
“Whenever someone tells you they are doing something ‘for your own good’, you can be certain that you won’t like it. Furthermore, they will expect you to pay for it. If they’re ‘protecting your morals,’ you’ll have to pay double.”
My work here is finished.
December 31st, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Once again you are ignoring the difference between influence and brainwashing. The Boy Scouts aren’t manipulated. They aren’t lied to.
It’s not the content of the beliefs that is important, it is the honesty or dishonesty in how the beliefs are transferred. If you join PETA, you know up front that they believe in the ethical treatment of animals. If you don’t agree with that, then you don’t join, or you leave. They aren’t deceptive about the fact that they are presenting a set of beliefs that may be different from your own. The same goes for a religion. You might not agree with their beliefs, and you might think those beliefs are a lie, but the fact that they are trying to affect your thinking isn’t a secret agenda, it’s out in the open. The same goes for school, or a political party. You know ahead of time that they are trying to influence you. Same goes for advertising, you know they are trying to influence you. If you joined PETA and it turned out that they were secretly trying to get you to buy a particular kind of cruelty free makeup by Revlon, then that would be manipulative, because you didn’t know that was their goal ahead of time. However, if it was the Revlon Loves Animals Club, then it wouldn’t be manipulative. Which brings me back to not criticizing beliefs. Anyone is free to believe what they want. If they believe in something that is unsupported by scientific fact, or maybe something that is unsupportable by scientific fact (like animal treatment, that is purely a matter of opinion), then that is their right. But when someone is made to believe something without their knowledge of or consent to the influential forces at work, then we are starting to talk about the realm of cults and true brainwashing.
December 31st, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Ah well, it seems the major problem here is that I will not instantly accede to your views. You talk about respecting beliefs while at the same time, refusing to acknowledge mine. You must be a closet Christian LOL
To take just one example from you post, the Boy Scouts. They refuse to accept atheists and gays. What message does that send to their members? That atheists and gays are fine? Or not so subtly, that they are bad wrong, and not worthy of associating with god-fearing heterosexuals?
To me this is brainwashing in its worst, most underhanded form. Your mileage may vary.
This is obviously a fruitless discussion as there is no possibility of working with anyone who refuses to accept facts. Tchau, all.
December 31st, 2007 at 9:19 pm
I just stumbled across this site and the lists are terrific, but I have some stuff to convey to James.
James:
“This is obviously a fruitless discussion as there is no possibility of working with anyone who refuses to accept facts. Tchau, all.”
I must say that everything you have written, and yes I have read it all, is very articulate and well-spoken. I do have one very clear message though to you, sir. You mention facts. Where is the proof of YOUR facts? Have you included any links to any factual documents supporting anything that you have written? NO. Everyone that has disagreed with you you have attempted to discredit by either pointing out that they don’t have any facts, or that their facts are wrong and yours are right. Where is YOUR proof? The more I read your posts and various responses, the more I think that you’re a Scientologist. (I mean it in the nicest way possible of course
)
Also, your refusal to actually debate or answer anyone’s queries leaves me with a feeling that you really have no proof in whatever you say beyond your own personal experiences. Others have show you other personal experiences that were vastly different than your own, but you clearly don’t see it that way because of your personal bias. I hate to tell you but personal bias does not equal fact.
I have a personal bias of my own. The moon landing was a hoax. I can state it’s fact, but is it really? I have no proof that someone landed on the moon or not, but I don’t say it’s fact.
I’m sorry you had a rough childhood, religious-wise, up until age 13. My life was vastly different growing up. I went to “church”, “Sunday School”, etc. I, as a child, didn’t entirely understand why I was going and what this God entity was really all about either. I was FAR from forced into going. It was my decision. I am currently an atheist, but it didn’t stem from me “thinking on my own”, it stemmed from the fact that I control my destiny. I am an individual. I do not follow a sheep herder.
The point I think I’m getting at, without having to write a 500 page dissertation on the topic, is that without proof facts are worthless. Back up your statements with fact and please do continue the conversation.
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:23 am
I saw something on TV on the Church’s retaliation tactics a few year’s back. Kirstie Alley was on half ass defending the tatics. It gave me the same creepy feeling that the tatics of the Westboro Church uses when people threaten or speak out against them. LAWSUITS, LAWSUITS, LAWSUITS, DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER, ETC.
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:27 am
jbjr – Westboro !! Haha…now you’re talking. That is one sad bunch of nutters.
Here’s the edifying website of the Westboro Baptist “church” for those who haven’t yet had the pleasure : http://www.godhatesfags.com/
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:52 am
HA!HA! Fred Phelps what a kook!
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:01 pm
James Smith: “Ah well, it seems the major problem here is that I will not instantly accede to your views. You talk about respecting beliefs while at the same time, refusing to acknowledge mine. You must be a closet Christian LOL”
I could pretty easily say the exact same thing to you, now couldn’t I? I thought we had a good thing going on here, but if you want to bow out in an immature fashion, be my guest.
The Boy Scouts’ stance that homosexuality is immoral, while disappointing, is NOT brainwashing. Brainwashing is not the same as communicating, its not the same as teaching, its not even the same as indoctrinating. Brainwashing requires a closed system– a setting from which a person is literally unable to escape. Brainwashing uses emotional and psychological abuse to break down a person’s identity, and rebuild it from scratch. If Scouts were locked up at their summer camps, and made to confess their sins (or “crimes”, in Scientology-speak) in front of others or have them recorded, and had their entire personalities remolded, then yes that would be brainwashing. Or if they were forced to sit for hours in some sort of sensory deprivation chamber, and then had to watch movies extolling the virtues of the Scouts, then yes that would constitute brainwashing.
I was in the Boy Scouts for a long time, and homosexuality was never once addressed. Not even remotely. And while a belief in God is indeed a theme in the Scouts, and yes an atheist Scout was kicked out for his beliefs, I personally have never once felt that I was forced into any kind of such belief. So even if the BSA holds certain beliefs, and even if it expects its members to hold similar beliefs, it is NOT BRAINWASHING anyone.
I highly, HIGHLY doubt your experiences in church (though obviously I could be mistaken here) resembled that. Were you ever locked in a room for hours? LOCKED. Unable to leave, even for a bathroom break or fresh air. Did they try to destroy your personality?
I just want you to recognize that there is a difference between teaching and brainwashing. Even between indoctrinating and brainwashing, there is a difference. Brainwashing involves indoctrination, for sure, but it also involves a set of circumstances that very few groups actually engage in. Saying they are the same thing is like saying marijuana is the same as heroin. No, they’re not.
January 5th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
I think to say that this cult be called a religion is alarming. I myself don’t believe in organized religion and all that comes with it, but i’ve got to say that scientology bleepin’ freaks me the bleep out. to think Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes are going to be teaching their daughter this scientocrapology is horrible. and that applies to anyone else. everyones welcome to their own opinions and welcome to believe whatever hey believe in, but this is nothing but a freaky a** business.
and JF, you should do lists about mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses. those don’t stray that far from this list.
January 5th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
All I have to add to this conversation is that all religions are a cult to some degree and I personally will never belong to a church although I do believe in an a higher power. My big thing with any religion is I do not agree with being told how to worship (another stupid word in religion I hate… I do not worship anyone,) and honestly do you really think that God is sitting up there thinking “Man I hate gays….and how bout those teens having premarital sex, I guess they’re all going to hell.” Now I’m just ranting there is too much on this subject to bitch about. So I am going to leave it there. Really I just wanted to post something…
January 11th, 2008 at 5:52 am
I have been asked for “proof” without naming what proof was wanted. I have always felt that “Some truths are self-evident” but perhaps not to all as is very obvious here.
I stayed away long enough to have my suspicions confirmed. As I expected, this debate has degenerated into name-calling as in “immature” etc. This always marks the end of all logical debate and, in this case, my permanent exit from this forum. Have a nice life.
January 11th, 2008 at 6:13 am
JS – “Have a nice life.”
LOL. How many times is this guy going to say goodbye. If you’re gonna go…then go !!
January 11th, 2008 at 11:15 am
For real. C’mon, James, you said, “Ah well, it seems the major problem here is that I will not instantly accede to your views. You talk about respecting beliefs while at the same time, refusing to acknowledge mine. You must be a closet Christian LOL”. That IS immature. I thought we had a good debate going on here, with contributions from everyone, and then you go and say that. I could _easily_ say that about you. So come on, don’t be like that, baby. You know I love you. Shhhhhhhhh… =D
Anyway, I thought of another important aspect of brainwashing that most religions don’t engage in: isolation of their members from the outside world. Scientologists are forbidden from reading what they call “entheta” material, which “refers to communications which, based on lies and confusions, are slanderous, choppy or destructive in an attempt to overwhelm or suppress a person or group.” (http://www.scientologie.tm.fr/gloss.htm) Take one guess what group they’re talking about. They are even encouraged/instructed to install censoring software on their computers to block such material. Why is this censorship so important, if Scientology “really works”? Isn’t it strong enough to stand up to critical thought? It’s important because when brainwashing someone, you have to remove the possibility of outside thought. You have to remove their reference point. When a person joins Scientology, they are drawn deeper and deeper into the Scientology universe, to the point that they are always surrounded by Scientologists, and only ever interacting with Scientologists, and are trained to ignore anything that might possibly contradict Scientology.
_Most_ churches don’t do this. Cultlike churches DO do this, to some extent. I watched this hilariously bad movie on TBN (the huge evangelical tv network) the other night called “Timechanger” (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0295725/), which was about a Bible professor from 1890 that uses a time machine to travel to the present day. As you can imagine, he is horrified by everything
But throughout the film, they very blatantly lay out their own political agenda for what’s wrong with this nation. It’s a little scary, but if that’s what they want to believe, then… yeah. What bothers me more though, is that in the film they talk about how secular movies were “the devil’s greatest victory.” Which means that not only are they promoting their own cause, which they’re allowed to do, it’s encouraging its viewers never to consider anything that isn’t promoting exactly the same agenda. THAT part is creepy to me.
January 12th, 2008 at 10:37 am
This is a good website about the real people been affected by Scientology.
January 12th, 2008 at 10:38 am
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/
January 13th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Scientology is a complete and utter load. Anyone who believes it, follows it or defends it has to be mentally imbalanced. there’s no other explanation for someone to be so stupid.
January 13th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Scientology is crazy, but not much more crazier than any other religion that claims to be the “truth”
January 15th, 2008 at 11:44 am
I am reminded of an episode in 6th grade science class, where our teacher was trying to teach us the difference between the greenhouse effect and the hole in the ozone layer, and went over it again and again to hammer into us that there is a difference, and then he asks my friend Matt, “ok, so which one is responsible for global warming?”, and Matt replies “…the ozone hole?” Our teacher literally screamed so loud that another teacher came over to make sure he was alright.
GAHHHHHH!! These last two comments. YES SCIENTOLOGY IS CRAZIER THAN OTHER RELIGIONS. THEY DO. THINGS. TO. YOU. Things that other religions do NOT do. That is how people follow and defend it, they have had things done to them!! They’ve been isolated from the outside world, they’ve been put into constant light hypnotic states, they’ve been forced to confess personal details that have been recorded and stored in files, they’ve been bombarded with overwhelming pressure that if Scientology isn’t working for them, then there is something wrong with them and they have to try harder, they’ve been in some cases deprived of sleep and proper nutrition, they’ve been forced to separate from their friends and family if they show anything resembling criticism… the list goes on. These are things that normal churches do not do.
Scientology DOES THINGS to people. Sinister things.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:16 am
Some observations on Scientology: when I lived in South Africa, they were doing a roaring trade squeezing money from the poor, amongst the uneducated and uninformed masses. Not unlike the tobacco companies who are doing the same thing.
Both organisations (Big tobacco and Scientology) are making money in the unregulated third world like it’s going out of fashion.
The Scientologists put leaflets in my letterbox that look as if they are selling genuine educational guides, as in: “your children will benefit from our scientifically proven educational material blah blah” just sign here, pay this much and your children can have it too, brackets, small print, Church of Scientology.
Their publically-visible literature is full of borderline pseudo-science – a picture of Einstein with the caption that we only use a tiny part of our brains, for example. Equating Einstein with Scientology, he must be spinning in his grave.
More sinister, I have a friend working with a vulnerable children NGO (Non-Govermental Organisation) in a major South African city. She was approached by the local Scientology branch to run a “workshop” for the chldren on abuse, with free venue, refreshments and guess what, propoganda leaflets thrown in.
Fortunately she knew what Scientology is, and told them where to get off.
Incredibly and sadly the Scientologists have actually managed to get the ear of the government to run “workshops” for the nations youth.
Incredibly, this went ahead. (In South Africa, see http://www.mg.co.za/articledirect.aspx?articleid=310747 )
Here in London where I live now, the tube and train stations have little cardboard adverts by the escaltors about how Scientology can change your life and sort out depression, anxiety and .
These direct backpackers and passers-by to a drop-in centre in central London, I saw a young back-packer in there filling in a form, this is their “Oxford Standard Capacity Analysis”, only it has nothing to do with Oxford. As usual they falsely claim associations with something that has nothing to do with Scientology, but seems academic and scientific.
Their questionaire identifies vulnerable people who are likely to pay for courses and get sucked in. Questions about loneliness and self-esteem are among the many other questions on the form.
I have driven past the palatial grounds of the Scientology East Sussex headquarters. Make no mistake, these people are:
* very well organised
* very well funded
* have a crack legal team at their disposal
* have a global infrastructure
* are very media savvy. Just google on anything with the word Scientology” and see the rash of sites they have put up.
They are not a church, not a religion, they expolit the vulnerable to make money.
So what about Tom Cruise? Not exactly vulnerable is he? The face they present to him will not be the same as the one they present to new recruits.
Islam recruited Mohammed Ali and Cat Stevens, if Scientology can recruit people like John Travolta and Tom Cruise, then this will spread the word and who knows, maybe even help them to hoover up a few more of the ignorant and vulnerable.
January 19th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Hey, in your other list on top 10 evil children, I quote:
“After Kemper murdered and dismembered eight women over the next five years, these same doctors affirmed his insanity defense. In fact, even as he was carrying parts of his victims around, a panel of psychiatrists judged him to be no threat to society.”
Do ya think that maybe such are the reasons why Scientology is against Psychiatry? Boy, if psychiatrists are letting freaks like that out into society and saying they are “no threat to society”, I would take Scientology any time.
I am sure I can find many other examples on your site…..
January 20th, 2008 at 5:55 am
Makes as much sense as any religion, NONE
January 21st, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Organized religion, in the hands of the corrupt, is corrupt. Whether it be Scientology, Mormonism, Islam, or the Catholic Church, when religious leaders abuse their power and the power of their belief system, it’s just wrong. But, faith in a higher power is not a bad thing, and has done good things for many people, including myself. It’s okay to believe in something…that’s sort of what being a human means.
January 24th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
yeah I personally think that most of the arguments that are pro-scientology can be destroyed by this article, especially the line “dismissing it as too crazy”
http://www.cracked.com/article_14932_p10.html
HAHAHAHAHAHA it makes it that bit more worrying, no?
January 31st, 2008 at 3:08 pm
To quote my friend: “Anyone who is a Scientologist should be ashamed. And see a psychiatrist. Actually, they should see several. An entire team of them. In fact, if you have a moment, they should be sent to Switzerland and placed under sterile laboratory conditions where a team of scientists from the world’s great universities, Oxford, Cambridge, Paris, Berlin and Leiden and so on, can study them under controlled conditions and with full protective gear with careful attempts to make sure that the scientists’ cash doesn’t mysteriously go “missing” and into the coffers of the Church.”
February 2nd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
…what’s so great about DISorganized religion?
Yes, Christianity is a dangerous, blood-sacrifice religion. And Scientology is a dangerous cult. Nobody needs to win the “how many has it killed” battle. The Inquisition, the Crusades, Hell, Lisa McPherson–I don’t need a contest. How about Nationalism? Patriotism? The Revolutionary War? The Civil War? World War II?
Break away from collectivist mindsets. People die because we tend to believe The Group is worth dying for. Who says? When you’re dead, how are you helping your crowd now?
February 10th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Firstly please understand that I detest Scientology, abhor Christianity, spit at Islam and loathe scientism (the belief that atheistic materialistic Science is the *only* correct means of acquiring reliable knowledge). A zealot is a zealot, be they in a white lab coat, thumping a Bible (Southern Baptist style), be they praising Allah, be they a Neo-Nazi or a Neo-Con or KKK or a greasy Republican or a spineless democrat boot licker, or just a generic crazy person with a gun – the effect remains the same: namely, you have dangerously misguided people who have surrendered their autonomy to a collectivist mind-group and who are thereby willing (read: programmed) to unquestioningly follow the instructions given to them by the group leaders (military included).
“Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.” -Joseph Stalin
Moreover, after having worked in the mental health industry (in both psychiatric hospitals and with NAMI) and being intimately associated with numerous other professionals within the field of mental health, I can say without the slightest reservation that, like it or not, Scientology is correct about psychiatry being a racket. Few, if any, of the people I have ever personally come in contact with who have received so-called “professional help” via psychiatric intervention have returned to any measurable degree of psychological health thereby. There is far too much dogma that governs psychiatry in general, and this is exacerbated by the fact that psychiatry is owned lock, stock and barrel by the big pharmacological corporations (as is most of America, and the entire American “educational” system, aka: the Engine of Public Indoctrination).
I agree that Scientology is a very dangerous thing indeed, and that they are very savvy regarding the use of NLP, Ericksonian covert hypnotic techniques, media programming, Delphi Techniques, and the basic and advanced arts of indoctrination (psychological programming) – but so too are FOX News, Baptist preachers, Mormons, Army recruiters and many car salesmen (to name but sundry few). My point being that what all of these things, what all of these groups of people really want (the news, the corporations, Scientology, Christianity, Islam, athiestic scientism, et cetera) – they all want your mind. And they have a mantra to help them get it:
“A thousand repetitions equals one truth.”
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a neurological fact. Actually it takes far fewer than a thousand repetitions to burn in a neuropathway, but “a thousand” sounds better than two-hundred and fifty.
So I will suffice with this: If you consider Scientology to be a dangerous cult (which it in fact is) then so too should you guard yourself against all other attempts to hi-jack your consciousness – because Scientology is merely one, crude, example among numerous other interests that are very actively endeavoring to infiltrate your mind – and once they do, you become like the fish that refuses to believe it is wet.
“It is perfectly possible for a man to be out of prison, and yet not be free – to be under no physical constraint and yet to be a psychological captive, compelled to think, feel and act as the representatives of the national state, or of some private interest within the nation, wants him to think, feel and act.
The nature of psychological compulsion is such that those who act under constraint remain under the impression that they are acting on their own initiative. The victim of mind-manipulation does not know that he is a victim. To him the walls of his prison are invisible, and he believes himself to be free. That he is not free is apparent only to other people. His servitude is strictly objective.” -Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley, 1958
Remember that when you wake up.
Pax vobiscum.
Morpheus
February 11th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Morpheus, that was a great post. I have only two points on which I disagree. One, I wouldn’t call Scientology ‘crude’ at all. It’s a crude way to cure people of their perceived ills, surely, but not at all crude in its ability to bring about behavioral changes. Instead, I would say its one of the most cunning and effective means of doing so. Yes: FOX News, Baptist preachers, Mormons, Army recruiters and many car salesmen, etc, use similar techniques, but not with the same intensity and mass coordination as that of Scientology. Possibly the Mormons do as well, I am not nearly as informed of their cultlike tactics as I am about Scientology’s. Two major, MAJOR advantages Scientology has over most other groups vying for control of minds is 1) their ability to utilize isolation as a means for thought reform and 2) their ability to transform recruits in recruiters. It’s like if an Evangelical church with a car salesman for a preacher not only programmed others to believe what he says to believe and do what he tells them to do, but also programmed them to become car salesmen/preachers themselves and locked the doors on them until it made perfect sense.
Which brings me to my second point. In all your examples, both religious and otherwise, the targets of such influence are free to not accept what they are fed and leave. Scientology does NOT afford its members the chance to leave. Sure, if you went to one course, and decided you weren’t into it, they might not be able to stop you… maybe. Besides the fact that if you’ve already taken one course then you have already been put into a state of high suggestibility and confronted with high pressure sales techniques, they have also been known to physically restrain people, both with their own bodies and by locking the doors. Granted, this is a thirdhand story, so I cannot say with absolute certainty that its true, but I heard of a friend of a friend that as a joke went to go watch their introduction movie and found the doors to be locked when they tried to leave before the film ended. Scientologists are TAUGHT to physically restrain people if necessary (see TR3: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/TR/critique.html), in the Communications Course, one of the very first courses a new recruit takes. And then of course people who try to leave are also subject to harassment via phonecalls, personal confrontations, etc. The longer they’ve been a member, the more trouble they are in.
My final point (I guess I have three points) in the difference between Scientology and other sources of mind control is that Fox News, ‘regular’ churches, etc, don’t force their members to abandon (see “disconnection”) their families and friends if those families and friends speak ill of their church or what-have-you.
Now of course, some churches may engage in these practices as well, and I would classify those churches as cults as well. But the majority of churches, while doubtlessly vying for minds in at least SOME capacity, simply do not do these things with the fierce intensity as Scientology does. They might be bad, but Scientology is much, much, much worse.
March 14th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
hah. scientology has literally no basis on reality. go smoke so more crack why don’t you ( :
April 24th, 2008 at 8:59 am
I despise Scientology AND all organized religions.
BUT… the negatives you describe also fit governments and the elite classes that hold the reigns of those governemnts.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Lies, violence, bigotry, hatred, murder, oppression, and secrecy? Sounds like any other religion (cult) I’ve ever heard of.
April 30th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
that “max” character is an idiot.
people are self made and self unmade,religion in general is just mad kind’s pathetic atempt for justification in the world. if you want something to change or get better in your life,do it.dont just wait around for your imaginary friend, im sorry, god, to do it for you.
the idea of god,in all honesty, makes me sick.
May 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am
“Psychiatry is evil”??
LOL.
and #185: woooow. That’s an extremely interesting statement. I’d love to know what you propose in place of the “elite classes which hold the reiNs” instead. There’s a huge difference between Idi Amin and George Bush.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I love how all of you guys are dissing Scientology
while other religions have done MUCH WORSE.
Think about it!
May 14th, 2008 at 12:02 am
ssss: so? That is a typical response from a scientologist shill – Scientology is doing evil – should we ignore it because others did too? Of course not. This type of argument shows how far scientologists have gone – by giving up any recourse to reason.
May 14th, 2008 at 12:27 am
Some how I knew I didn’t have to touch that.
Hail Lord JayNu!!!
May 14th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Crimanon
I think we are all always at the ready to defend against the evils of the CoS!
May 14th, 2008 at 12:40 am
I’m starting a pool about how long it’s going to take Katie to Leave Tom. It may take a few years at the current rate to find the out come. It’s three to one that she stays with him because of the kid.
May 14th, 2008 at 12:46 am
Crimanon: I am amazed it has taken this long!
May 14th, 2008 at 12:51 am
I really thought she would’ve learned something from Disturbing Behavior. Most actors have the intelligence to remember things like that.
May 14th, 2008 at 12:52 am
Is there a reason why I’m getting my own comments emailed to me?
May 14th, 2008 at 11:42 am
ssss: This isn’t about what other religions have done in the past. It’s about what Scientology is doing right now, right under our noses.
I’ve been thinking recently about how to express what’s wrong with Scientology in a concise manner, that stands up to the most common retorts, like yours. “Oh, all religions and governments do that.” Well, yes, to a degree, but no. Scientology TAKES control of people. You can go to a Catholic church (for example) once, twice, even for a month straight, and then leave freely with all your beliefs and thinking intact. And even if you’ve been a devote Catholic for a long time, you are still free to go or not go to church, and are able to make up your own mind about whatever. Scientology, conversely, uses psychological and emotional manipulation to shut down one’s mind. Like, in a matter of days. Hours, even. They put you into a closed environment and basically do things to you until other thoughts are literally impossible.
I think that’s the major difference between Scientology (and cults in general) and other organizations. Cults TAKE control of your life, whereas other organizations merely influence it.
Crimanon: there’s a little checkbox below that says “notify me of followup comments via e-mail”. I get comments emailed to me too.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
spninja: no, My comments are being mailed to me. I get all of the others too. But mine coming back is new. And I’ll let you know if this comes back too.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
It seems to only be this list that’s doing it. It seems that listverse has developed an echo.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
bummer man.
On the plus side, check this out http://glosslip.com/2008/05/13/modern-day-slavery-within-the-church-of-scientology/
May 15th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
spninja: How do you know that? Have you ever read any of Scientologys books? Gone to a church of Scientology? Or do you just believe what you have heard from other people?
jfrater: Don’t you think that extremists of any religion do “evil” things?
May 15th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
ssss: Freezone??? You’re getting pretty defensive over a (specific) list. Trust me there are plenty of other lists in which religion is bashed as equally.
“Have you ever read any of Scientologys books? Gone to a church of Scientology? Or do you just believe what you have heard from other people?”
How many religions texts have you read? Have you ever gone to Temple? Or have you just been taking other people opinions on religion and using them to misdirect the conversation away from you?
“Think about it!”, We have and that’s why we are here!
And Please, “while other religions have done MUCH WORSE.”, Do tell. Lets see this “much worse.”
June 2nd, 2008 at 5:00 am
I don’t know much about scientology and I’ve only read about half of the comments here so far (but I’ll probably finish them… this is quite interesting), but I don’t think #1 can really be considered much of a fault with the religion. I agree that, from what I’ve read here and heard other places, much of their beliefs and practices are somewhat ridiculous, but the fact that the church itself is now anti-drugs, despite the fact that their founder was not, should be considered a positive. Many organizations that do a lot of good (not that I’m arguing scientology is good) were founded by people whose motives or personal lives were much less than what the current manifestation of their creation (for lack of a better word) would consider positive or representative of their practices (Planned Parenthood, for example).
The rest of the list is pretty informative although it seems a little hostile at some points lol
June 10th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Speaking to james and a few others further back in this dialog, two things come to mind that I’d like to mention.
First, I find it interesting that so many who choose not to believe the teachings of any organized religion- in part because of the rigidity of their beliefs and the aggressive means they use in defending them- will display many of those same traits in arguing their position. That’s almost like a religion in and of itself in my opinion.
Second, I think it is important to make a distinction between what followers of a given religion do and what the religion itself teaches on a fundamental level. The awful acts comitted by people over the ages in the name of the Christian God are not indicative of what the faith teaches.
In the case of this list’s subject, these teachings are actually a part of the religion’s “sacred” texts, such as they are.
June 24th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
oh Lord in Heaven, someone PLEASE help Tom Cruise before it’s too late!!!!
July 10th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Scientology scares the living hell out of me. From the videos i’ve seen of protesters getting followed by scientologists, and personal stories from my own friends, Scientology has all the money in the world, and are growing power more and more each day. If anything were to ever happen to our Government, i’m pretty sure scientology would step in, and turn our society into something Orwellian, ‘1984′.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
I don’t know how many times this thought has crossed my mind but I wonder if the prophets of the past, all of them, in some way had revelations under influence? So, in a way, isn’t it true that those prophets really lied to their followers and people are still believing in those lies?
I am sure tens of thousands of years from now (give or take a few), if the Scientology (and humans as well) still survives then they would have made a prophet of him and the book of Scientology to be the direct revelation to him by God…that is assuming that average IQ of the humans goes down to 60 from its current value of 100…which to me does not appear to be an impossibility
By the way I ust started looking at this web site and oh boy, I love it! Very informative…great job JF et al!
July 28th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
OK, it’s not that hard–PAY ATTENTION: Scientology-Mason’s-Elks-Lions-Catholic’s etc etc etc, ARE NOT SECRET? HELLO? ANYONE PAYING ATTENTION? What you mean is that they are organizations WITH SECRETS. Like Ford Motor Company–Coca-Cola–7-11, or just about any one or any thing–THEY ALL HAVE SECRETS-If they were a SECRET ORGANIZATION, WOULD YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM???? DUH!!!
July 30th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Just as a unimportant side note, I have read from Ex-Scientologist that low level Scientologists aren’t taught anything about Xenu and all that jazz and probably truly don’t know about Xenu at all.
They have to pay for it of course.
The Church of Scientology is a dangerous organisation however I have no problem with “Freezone” Scientologists.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Wonderful list! Read every word and I’ve always wondered about Scientology. Makes me disrespect Tom Cruise even further…
August 15th, 2008 at 7:34 am
I was saddened to find out recently that Beck is a scientologist as well.
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:18 am
2,6 and 9 can be said as equall for the bible and the christian belief as well… at least scientology is original (and hillarious), whilst religious beliefs based on a superior god are knock-offs of each other. (points finger especially to christianity)
i dont really think scientologists themselves really believe it, but its an exclusive and exotic club, screwed up as it may be..
lol
August 28th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Yum, Mania on so. Good if rotten. If on ogre, divot.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:32 am
Max: God you are fuckin’ nuts.
Furthermore, I attended a school dedicated to Scientology in a religious manner. Getting locked in rooms, sent to people for minor cases to get psychologically abused, and forced to take certain classes when you have “reached a certain level of ‘realization’”, based on the whole Learning How to Learn technique. …no.
…no. I cannot express enough how evil Scientology is. L Ron Hubbord was a bloody genius, though. Want alot of money?
Make up your own religion.
Humans are stupid enough to wander along.
Sheep.. baaa.
September 6th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
You realize that by saying anything you expose yourself to danger. Honestly. You could become fair game. At least you can speak out against Christians (I am one) and not fear reprisal. But badmouth Scientology and you need to watch your back, brother.
Fight the good fight.
September 18th, 2008 at 3:11 am
Having the knowledge I now have of Scientology, after non-bias study of it for over a year (did 2 years of the same for Mormons)… I realize that it may not be the thing for me; however, if Scientology, or ANY belief for that matter, works for someone, enriches their life in some way, who the hell are we to tell them otherwise. Who the fuck cares?? So unless we are okay with constantly pointing the finger and criticizing ways in which others live their lives, maybe we should be concentrating on how we can better enrich our OWN fucking lives! Feels like blame-shifting to me…
All we have is our own knowledge of how things are in relation to US. We have OUR own version of what’s right and wrong. Does that mean your version is correct? Of course, for YOU it is! But what of the rest of us?
There is a tribe in Africa that, when a child turns 2yrs old, the mother begins to teach the child how to masturbate. Is that wrong?? Muslim women wear scarves on their heads due to religious beliefs. Is that wrong? Some 5 year old girls wear short skirts… Some men are into women peeing on them… Some christians are racists… Some mothers care about breast implants more than their children… Some cancer patients never get treated, out of choice… Some bi-polar kids smoke weed to cope with symptoms… Some homosexuals will NEVER come out of the closet… IS ANY OF THIS WRONG or RIGHT??? It’s all relative of course; therefore, coming from a place of judgment is hardly ever validated. Coming from a place of BEing is all we should ask of anyone.
One of the biggest reasons why we have concepts of right and wrong are fear… of death (shocking, but do some critical thinking and you will see what I mean). Crazy thing is, death is just as natural as birth. But it’s an ending, and in our minds (most minds) endings are never good. So we come up with what is good (for us) and what is bad (for us), and when someone does something that is “bad” in OUR eyes, we automatically see it as bad (subconsciously something that could harm you) and that person automatically is bad. Closing the door to a vast, epic list of people and things you could experience… all because you believe that your beliefs are THEE beliefs.
Too much attention to detail is played in regards to religion and politics. The bigger picture is rarely ever looked at… and if we would, for once, step back and see that we are just a speck in this world, evolving like everything else is… and has… and will be, I guess our bottom line should be LOVE. Because when it comes down to it, that’s all we have… and that’s all we will ever need!
September 18th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Amber: I’d agree with you, except that Scientology is dishonest and abusive to its adherents. Scientology LIES to recruits about time and financial commitments, and uses thought reform tactics to change their behavior without their consent. Scientology uses psychological and emotional abuse to make it nearly impossibly for someone to leave the organization. It takes people that perhaps ARE looking for answers, direction, or help in their lives–which is nothing to be ashamed of–and systematically destroys their critical thinking abilities and free will. It separates families and seeks to destroy free speech or individual thought. This doesn’t sound like love to me.
While Scientology itself is an inherently evil organization (loaded word, I know, but if you don’t think the above is evil, then I’d like to know what IS), Scientologists themselves, individually, are not. They are normal people, who truly believe that the world is in peril and Scientology is the _only_ way to save it. Of course, they have been subjected to thought reform tactics (search this thread for examples of those tactics, or start poring over xenu.net) and have had this belief forcibly instilled into their minds, but they do believe they are working toward the greater good nonetheless. It’s just that the “greater good” always equals Scientology. Scientology takes people and turns them into robots whose only purpose is to serve its own greedy aims.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:31 am
My main problem with Scientology is Tom Cruise got to put it in Katie Holmes and I didn’t. I don’t really have a problem with Scientology just as I don’t have a problem with any other work of fiction. I have a problem with Scientologists thinking they are better than we who know them to be delusional. I really don’t think I’ve encountered a more smug group of “religious” people than Scientologists. They really are crazy. Now God save Katie Holmes.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:10 am
I really don’t understand why anyone would want to join Scientology, it’s about as logical as sticking a dress on your goldfish and naming it Jacob.
!!
November 6th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
YEAH!!!! I like scientology
December 16th, 2008 at 6:12 am
hmm. I feel a little intimidated to type on here, I feel a little out of my depth here!
um, firstly I’m an atheist. I don’t have an extensive knowledge on belief systems, I’ll admit that firstly.
A couple of people on here said that perceptions of certain belief systems are subjective. I think thats fair. It isn’t fair though, IMO for power structures to be established, dictating what the religion does and doesn’t mean (I might be playing with myself here though).
IMO the ideals of some religions might hold value, while I don’t buy into the spiritual part. For instance, I think that christianity teaches not to judge people, because god judges people when they die or something. When christians are judgmental of others (other religions, sexuality and customs etc), I personally think that goes against christianity. It isn’t a christian’s job to go around judging people, it’s god’s job. Christianity is supposed to teach people to show respect for everyone, understand your place as a spiritual equal with everyone until god decides if you’re better or worse than the next person. And while I don’t think god actually exists and therefore can’t judge people, I like the point made not to point fingers around.
Amber – As far as judging people, well all I will say is, I wouldn’t want one of my friends to join scientology. As far as I am concerned L. Ron Hubbard is nothing but a pathetic bum, his scam known as “scientology” continuing to be used to exploit people to no end, the whole organisation is parasitic IMHO and I don’t want myself or anyone I know to associate with it. That said, I don’t know much about religion, and I used to oppose christianity and islam and everything pretty strongly as well, so who knows? In a year I might be looking out for the evil space lord and working on my OT lvl and shit as well?
Or, just forget everything I previously wrote, because I mostly just want to thank the author of the list for putting in the time and effort!
December 22nd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I do not like sitting in church, I don’t practice any religious habits, I only believe in God. Religion is annoying, faith is good. I am the most non-religious Christian you ever met. Feel welcome to rip on religion, I do it too! But God – do not rip on him.
December 27th, 2008 at 1:43 am
LOL, arguing over the net.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Who’s up for a clambake? and V for Vendetta movie?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Just a thought, but will the Travolta’s (well known to be Scientologists) be up for neglect in regards to the death of their son? He had a history of seizures, was most likely not treated medically due to Scientology beliefs and hit his head, killing him, during one such seizure.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
I have never read such total rubbish in my life.
No one could surely belive this gobbledegook unless they were
mentally unhinged – and may God protect them and steer them
well away from such evil.
Yes Alli I would love clambake never had it.
January 21st, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Can you please start spelling organization right??? It is spelled wrong & it drives me crazy!!
January 21st, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Yeah, I agree with Melissa. I hate when people spell things the way the people who started the language spell them.
January 21st, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Now now, not every one in the world can speak American.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:44 pm
I find Scientology just as valid as Christianity and any other organised religion for that matter, they’re all bs. Beleif should be discovered by the individual, not taught and brainwashed into young children. Everyone should discover their own beliefs, not be brought up to beleive what their parents do. Organised religion is a sham.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:01 am
I personally look down on cults created by pedophiles.
March 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 am
The comments here are fascinating. Many years ago when I first found out about Scientology I read a bit about it and thought that it was thought out and run by wing-nuts. My only change in thought is that I now know them to be dangerous wing-nuts. There is something about human nature that really wants to Belong to something, to Understand what is happening around us and to Know more than the next person. All religions have preyed on this since we came down from the trees.
I will Believe in a religion when they stop trying to tell us how to run our lives based on their personal beliefs. The Golden Rule is all anyone needs and when a church of any kind goes beyond that I start heading for the door. I’ve recently discovered the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and think that I might just start calling myself a Pastafarian because I can deal with a religion that demands that you be “heavily sauced” — especially when that sauce contains basil and garlic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
March 20th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
I heard that scientology was created from a bet between Hubbard and some other scifi author, like whoever could create a religion first from their book would win it.
Either way, scientology is pretty much for psychos. Someone mentioned earlier about how scientology helped him/her get off of drugs and alcohol. There’s something called a rehab clinic for that, and it works just as well in most cases. As for being anti-medicine/psychiatry -that’s just plain dangerous. If someone’s dying of cancer and you’re denying that person treatment because of some alien, it’s so wrong.
Also, I think scientology most definitely is more of a cult than a religion. Look up the definitions for both in a dictionary, and then decide. And what’s with all the hating on organized religion? I think it’s perfectly fine. By all you haters out there imposing and shoving your beliefs down everyone’s throat, you’re acting the same as those of other faiths. If we could all be tolerant of each other, it would be nice. I myself was brought up with extremely devout, religious parents who talk about God and his mercy like ALL the time, but I’m nowhere near religious. I think I’m more atheist than anything else. It’s all about education, I suppose, and how you perceive things based on what you’ve learned. I think everyone who has learned a little about the world is entitled to their own opinions.
Just not psycho people who like hurting others for money and create irrational fears of things that are meant to hurt you. I mean, dying because of multiple seizures? That’s so something that can be avoided with modern meds.
April 2nd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Don’t all of the first nine points apply to Catholicism? lol
I mean, I don’t mind. People can choose whatever religion they want. I just feel bad for people who are ripped off and harassed and/or abused physically and mentally.
April 22nd, 2009 at 10:11 am
I know from personal experience that PSYCHIATRY is a fraud. I have done under-cover investigations for the NY State Attorney General Medicaid Fraud Unit, so I know from whence I speak.
Noone in their right mind wants to see a “shrink” – business was gloomy until the late ’80s and ’90s when they started giving children RITALIN and other psych medications for “AHDD” and such. Its a rip-off!
You should read the expose’s in the literature I have compiled on http://www.Net4TruthUSA.com/cchrlinks.htm and read the book “The Sexual Paraphilias” – http://www.TelsonUSA.com/paraphilias.htm
Obviously, the author of this site has never TRIED dianetics, but I know it works – By just reading the book I CURED a Vietnam Veteran of SEVERE PTSD from which he was suffering tremendously and had been seeing a VA shrink for over 20 YEARS. Read about it in my book “Land of Childhood’s Fears” http://www.VFCLL.com/vietnambook.htm
Information is power only when it is the TRUTH!
Godspeed to all.
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I find it fascinating that the real issue behind all of the complaints about organized religions is abuse. Abuse of power, abuse of people, abusive language, and the tools of abuse — intimidation, name-calling, the use of “hot” words, instilling fear, and so on and so forth.
While busy complaining about abuse by individuals, many of the individuals who complain are abusive, demeaning and derogatory, showing a level of arrogance and disrespect that is mind-boggling.
If you wonder how religions, groups, and governments wind up with such a bad reputation, just read the venom that drips from many of the posts that are here. It isn’t pretty, but neither is man’s history with its clear-cut instances of cruelty, intimidation and inhumane behavior.
We have many laws covering felonies such as murder, rape, assault and battery, etc. To bring such charges requires actual, verifiable evidence that can be brought against an individual before a court. Then they must be PROVEN guilty as charged before they are punished. What you want to do seemingly, is hold an online kangaroo court and punish without due process. Of course, that is what all witch hunts are about, aren’t they.
I guess I am a witch, for I certainly do not see anything fine or noble in many of the comments that have been posted. (Please excuse this statement, those of you who have tried and failed to bring a voice of reason into this very long set of comments)
Then again, you are welcome to your opinions, just so long as you realize that you are using the same techniques to intimidate and “brainwash” that anyone else is. You want your belief to prevail and I guess you believe that all is fair to make it prevail.
Bring on the abuse!
May 26th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Problem solved guys, I’m pretty sure I killed Xenu on my Xbox last night!
But seriously I don’t think its right to criticise a religion which doesn’t inflict some form of pain on others not involved but Scientology does through this bullshit anti-psyciatry ordeal.
The good news is however that Tom Cruise will have less time to crap movies which would feature his maudlin expressions which make me want to punch the tv screen…..which hurts.
June 7th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Sorry to disagree – Although every religion has its problems, Scientology and Dianetics are more of healing sciences rather than religions. Scientology is a “religion” simply because L. Ron Hubbard MATHEMATICALLY PROVED the existence of a human soul (Scientology calls it “Thetan”) back in the early 1950s. You would have to read the voluminous volumes in The Discovery Series – an encyclopedic body of work spanning hundreds of 11 x 17-inch bound volumes to know why.
Those who have not read the entirety of the basis for Dianetics and Scientology are, unfortunately at the mercy of those who see surface apparencies and draw assumptions from rumor and conjecture rather than objective fact.
Scientology has accumulated a body of work which debunks PSYCHIATRY as a DANGEROUS practice – one that is replete with a litany of abuses. You can download this literature free of charge at: http://www.Net4TruthUSA.com/cchrlinks.htm
Please visit our Web site at: http://www.Net4TruthUSA.com for many fascinating topics, opinions, and information.
June 29th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Yes well if you think christianity is real and you think scientology isnt, you are a hypocrite and should consider doing the same amount of research into all religious beliefs….including your own!
June 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Even if you dont believe in modern psychiatric practices, that DOES NOT mean you have to be a scientologist
July 20th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
very funny how these people are. its simply hilarious that there are people who are actually stupid enough to believe these things. especially since they know that Hubbard was a sci-fi writer. what tops it all off is that they STILL dont think its a cult even after they are asked to pay hundreds of dollars to move on the the next level. Ron Hubbard might have known what he was doing when he created this. He probably really did mean for all this to happen. Ingenious way to trick the stupidest of the stupidest. Good job scientologists, you are considered among the stupidest people in the world!
August 19th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
@ milesofsmiles (236), I don’t really think all the comments would brainwash a person, unless that person is stupid enough to believe things without any background knowledge. I myself don’t agree with scientology because it’s like the Mad Hatter of all the religions. I am a Christian, but I honestly believe that there are many paths to one place. I don’t think life is a pointless accident, and I don’t think that my religion is the only correct one. If a person of another religion lives his/her life faithful to their God, I don’t believe they’ll go to hell for that. In the Bible it does say that the Word of the Lord will be interpreted in many ways, so…. yeah.
Oh by the way, if ANYONE wants to say that God isn’t real, then please explain this: there is a day that is missing from the past. Scientists discovered this when they were looking back to figure out where the sun will be in a certain amount of time. There is a story in the Bible (Joshua, Chapter 4, I think) where a man asks God not to let the day end until Israel defeats their enemy. The day wound up being “about a whole day”. This missing day wasn’t discovered until (i think) 1969, and the Bible has been around for a few thousand years now. =]
August 25th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
If anybody REALLY wants to obtain the full OT1-9 training pamphlets there is a PDF available on The Pirate Bay that you can torrent. When I d/led it they had quite a few seeders so it shouldn’t be too lengthy a process. It’s pretty fascinating stuff.
September 4th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Don’t quote me on this but didn’t Rons old mother live in a cupboard??
No wonder he was nuts!!
September 12th, 2009 at 9:25 am
@Boo:
Regarding the missing day, can you elaborate??
This is not a barb at you, it is from genuine curiosity.
September 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am
It’s funny, you said “Scientology is man made”
ALL RELIGION IS MAN MADE IDIOT.
Religion is motivated by GREEDY LEADERS and people who like to oppress people, like women, other races, and gays.
I’m not saying I know there’s not a God, but i’m not going to make something up.
September 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am
@239:
Sorry just had to take issue with this as I see it so often and it drives me up the wall…that is not hypocritical.
To be a hypocrite is to act like you believe something when you don’t really.
For example, a Doctor who tells a patient smoking is unhealthy but smokes isn’t a hypocrite.
Therefore, someone who believes in christianity would only be a hypcorite if they said and acted as if scientology wasn’t real but really they believed it was.
September 15th, 2009 at 11:14 am
@Stizzy (247): To be a hypocrite is to act like you believe something when you don’t really.
For example, a Doctor who tells a patient smoking is unhealthy but smokes isn’t a hypocrite.
I’m not trying to defend post 239 that you replied to, Stizzy, but I don’t quite agree with your statement here. One definition is that a hypocrite is someone whose actions are counter to their stated beliefs. Such as the doctor in your example.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite
September 15th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
It still doesn’t sit Maggot.
Just because a Doctor believes smoking is bad for your health (I mean what Doctor doesn’t) yet smokes, this doesn’t make him a hypocrite.
The Doctor isn’t acting in contradiction to what he believes. He’s acting in spite of what he believes. Plenty of people believe smoking is bad for them but do it anyway.
The hypocrite is the one who acts in such a way that would make people think they believe smoking is bad for them, yet really in private they believe it is perfectly healthy. Whether they light up in private or not, this still makes them a hypocrite.
The word “hypocrite” comes from a Greek word that means basically “actor”.
Is the smoking Doctor playing a false part when he smokes but tells his patient it isn’t healthy? No of course not, he’s being open about it and explaining a truth.
It’s a common fallacy to assume such a person is a hypocrite. And because it is common, you find yourself disagreeing.
September 27th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
To be fair psychology isn’t considered a science by many actual scientists.
Scientology is still crazy as fuck though.