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There have been conflicts in the middle east for centuries, and the 19th century is no exception – in fact, some might say it has seen the worst conflicts of all. This is a list of the various attempts made in the 20th century to bring peace to the region.
The Faisal-Weizmann Agreement was signed on January 3, 1919, by Emir Faisal (son of the King of Hejaz) and Chaim Weizmann (later President of the World Zionist Organization) as part of the Paris Peace Conference, settling disputes stemming from World War I. It was a short-lived agreement for Arab-Jewish cooperation on the development of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and an Arab nation in a large part of the Middle East.
The Armistice Agreements are a set of agreements signed between Israel and its neighbors Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria. The agreements ended the official hostilities of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, and established armistice lines between Israel and the West Bank, also known as the Green Line, until the 1967 Six-Day War.
The Camp David Accords were signed by Egyptian President Anwar El Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin on September 17, 1978, following twelve days of secret negotiations at Camp David. The two agreements were signed at the White House, and were witnessed by United States President Jimmy Carter. The Accords led directly to the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty.
The Egyptian–Israeli Peace Treaty was signed in Washington, DC, United States, on March 26, 1979, following the Camp David Accords (1978). The main features of the treaty were the mutual recognition of each country by the other, the cessation of the state of war that had existed since the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, and the complete withdrawal by Israel of its armed forces and civilians from the rest of the Sinai Peninsula which Israel had captured during the 1967 Six-Day War. The agreement also provided for the free passage of Israeli ships through the Suez Canal and recognition of the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba as international waterways.
The Madrid Conference was hosted by the government of Spain and co-sponsored by the USA and the USSR. It convened on October 30, 1991 and lasted for three days. It was an early attempt by the international community to start a peace process through negotiations involving Israel and the Arab countries including Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and the Palestinians. In the aftermath of the 1991 Gulf War, US President George H.W. Bush and his Secretary of State James Baker formulated the framework of objectives, and together with the Soviet Union extended a letter of invitation, dated October 30, 1991 to Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and the Palestinians.
The Oslo Accords, officially called the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements or Declaration of Principles (DOP) was a milestone in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It was the first direct, face-to-face agreement between Israel and political representatives of Palestinians. It was the first time that some Palestinian factions publicly acknowledged Israel’s right to exist. It was intended to be a framework for the future relations between Israel and the anticipated State of Palestine, when all outstanding final status issues between the two states would be addressed and resolved in one Package Agreement.
The Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace (full name: Treaty of Peace Between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan), is a peace treaty signed in 1994. The treaty normalized relations between the two countries and resolved territorial disputes between them. The conflict between them had cost roughly 18.3 billion dollars. Its signing is also closely linked with the efforts to create peace between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization representing the Palestinian Authority. It was signed at the southern border crossing of Arabah on October 26, 1994, and made Jordan only the second Arab country (after Egypt) to normalize relations with Israel.
The Middle East Peace Summit at Camp David of July 2000 took place between United States President Bill Clinton, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, and Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat. It was an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to negotiate a “final status settlement” to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The Beirut summit took place in March 2002, and held to present plans to defuse the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Jordan’s foreign minister said, “The Arab initiative put forth at the Beirut Summit in March offers comprehensive peace in the region based on the internationally recognized formulation of ‘land for peace’ — a return to 4 June 1967, borders in exchange for normal relations and a collective peace treaty.”
The “road map” for peace is a plan to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict proposed by a “quartet” of international entities: the United States, the European Union, Russia, and the United Nations. The principles of the plan were first outlined by U.S. President George W. Bush in a speech on June 24, 2002, in which he called for an independent Palestinian state living side by side with Israel in peace: “The Roadmap represents a starting point toward achieving the vision of two states, a secure State of Israel and a viable, peaceful, democratic Palestine. It is the framework for progress towards lasting peace and security in the Middle East…”
Contributor: rushfan
August 31st, 2008 at 2:59 am
wow, first comment on the site is the first on this list
August 31st, 2008 at 3:06 am
Nice list Rushfan.
Item 1 sounds a lot like many of Bush’s other vague and dimly outlined other “projects”. Is there a conclusion to this “Roadmap Plan” ? Or am I missing a joke here?
August 31st, 2008 at 3:17 am
I think it’s safe to say that as long as humans exist there will always be war of some kind and even if peace is kept for a few days, if there isn’t going to be a clear winner the war will go on…. and even if there is a winner then the other country will just be even more desperate to defeat them, and the cycle continues
August 31st, 2008 at 3:19 am
oh and George Bush + Peace just don’t add up in my head
August 31st, 2008 at 3:55 am
This is a serious list… and I’ll comment when I’m sober. But anyways, good job rushfan (again)
August 31st, 2008 at 4:05 am
Leah: George Bush + Peace = War
August 31st, 2008 at 4:17 am
OMG it’s August 29th again! Listverse halts the progress of time…
August 31st, 2008 at 4:37 am
It’s eternally my birthday! This is better than Groundhog’s Day!
August 31st, 2008 at 4:42 am
I was surprised to see how much Bill Clinton was involved in peace talks
August 31st, 2008 at 5:05 am
And still they keep shooting at each other.
August 31st, 2008 at 5:33 am
I’d say “any US president” + peace doesn’t add up in my head. Clinton had his wars too as most US presidents.
August 31st, 2008 at 5:54 am
It has been centuries since wars in the Middle East were running, why can’t people stop fighting?
We share one world, we share one earth, can’t we just live a peacfula adn harmonious life?
August 31st, 2008 at 6:33 am
Thank you rushfan for an unbiased walk through this history.
My only note is that these are 8 attempts (unfulfilled efforts) and two successes… the treaties with Egypt and Jordan).
August 31st, 2008 at 7:04 am
One of our (Chile’s) tennis stars, and olympic double god medal winner is Nikolás Massu.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:04 am
Sorry, submitted before ready. Forget 14 and move to my next post please!
August 31st, 2008 at 7:17 am
And all of these failed.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:32 am
Start again.
One of our (Chile’s) tennis stars, and olympic double gold medal winner is Nikolás Massú. He is of mixed Jewish-Arabic ancestry.
The celebrated pianist and orchestral conductor, Daniel Barenboim, is Jewish, born in Argentina, who now lives in Israel. He has devoted much of his later life to the foundation of an orchestra consisting of Israeli and Palestinian instrumentalists.
We have a highly educated plant geneticist friend here who is of Palestiniam origin. He is concerned for the future of Palestinians, but also wants a just and secure future for Israel.
If only these people and others like them could play a significant part in the geopolitical settlements.
On the other hand, Chile has a large Palestinian colony (one of its major soccer clubs is called Palestino) which largely predates the formation of Israel. Of course many are moderate and highly cultivated people like our friend. But one also finds in correspondence blogs to the most intellectual paper remarks along the lines of Israel being as evil as Hitler’s Nazi Germany and needing the efforts of the international community to elmininate it.
Probably as a counter-reaction to these sentiments, and a feeling that they can trust nobody when the chips are down, we have noticed a disturbing tendency among young Israelis who travel in groups around Patagonia. Many are no longer the open, laid-back, humorous, slightly self-mocking citizens we were once accustomed to. They now all too often tend to remain in uncommunicative cliques. They have become unfriendly, aggressive, selfish and anti-social. We have read in the media that even Israeli intellectuals are concerned by this change, proving it isn’t simply an invention of ours.
These entrenchments, particularly by the young, are worrying.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:39 am
Nicolás Massú. NICOLÁS MASSÚ. I had to wake up properly and get it right eventually. His nickname is ‘El Vampiro’, so he probably belongs on another LV list somewhere.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:42 am
I agree with Leah, while man walks this planet there will never be total peace.
War goes back centuries – sometimes with little gain – and it is always the innocent that suffer.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:50 am
Israel and Palestine have been fighting since Day One. They will continue to fight until Day Zero.
This is not a peace which can be negotiated. This is not a peace which can exist at all. Theirs is a hatred taught from birth, it has taken it’s place so firmly in their psyche, that it might as well be part of their DNA. No outsider is going to understand the complexities of the issues involved, the West least of all!
When my pain management doctor, a nominal Jew, went to Israel on holiday with his brother, who is Orthodox, I worried for him. He had a good, peaceful, time and got to visit the wailing wall, which his brother insisted on daily. Even he, a Jew, though a westerner born and raised, didn’t seem to have a clue about what was really going on.
It breaks my heart to say such things. To say otherwise would be a silly, hopeful, naive lie.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:53 am
as long as there is land, people will fight over it
-Patrick SpoongeBob Squarepants-
August 31st, 2008 at 9:09 am
seque:
Theirs is not ‘a hatred taught from birth’, and in many cases it is this view that actually prevents progress. There is a distrust that is taught from birth (on both sides), but this is a far cry from hatred.
The hatred that is being taught from birth is a new problem that only started with the rise of the popular fundimentalist movement of Hamas. Sadly, this extreme view has been forced on many of the more moderate Arab regimes and people under threats the average westerner can not even begin to imagine. The ‘forcing of views’ is mainly played out in the mosques and in the local media.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:09 am
segue,
I forgot to add something, and what for me is the most devastating and tragic aspect of it all. It links to your comment. I refer to “safe” nations that sit on the sidelines fomenting this hatred and warfare in their own interests. Nations which have it completely within their power to act as brokers and try to draw the two together in peace, as Egypt and Jordan have sensibly and decently done.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:50 am
Anon; Rather ironic isn’t it that the only true success was at the behest and hands of Jimmy Carter? Something to do with his character and motives perhaps? I fail to understand how his presidency is so under-rated by the natives.
August 31st, 2008 at 10:00 am
Mom424,
I agree that Jimmy Carter is a rather underrated president. There were some aspects of his term that were certainly negative but they don’t negate the many good things he accomplished.
Also I think it is now official, rushfan is the Stephen King of ListVerse (in terms of sheer prolific-ness-ness-ocity….)
August 31st, 2008 at 10:08 am
good job once again rushfan. you should start your own site.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:05 am
22. stevenh, I bow to your superior knowledge. There is a difference between distrust and hatred, people can live together even through distrust.
But, and I quote you, “The hatred that is being taught from birth is a new problem that only started with the rise of the popular fundimentalist movement of Hamas. Sadly, this extreme view has been forced on many of the more moderate Arab regimes and people under threats the average westerner can not even begin to imagine. The ‘forcing of views’ is mainly played out in the mosques and in the local media.”, creates a condition which makes living together impossible.
I grant you, as a Westener, I haven’t a real clue what it’s like to live there. I don’t want to know. If it were in my power to bring the Palestinians and Israelis together in peaceful harmony I would, but it’s not up to me.
17 & 23. Anon, I agree completely. But again, in my powerlessness, I feel sad, angry, and vulnerable.
Sad, because I see and read about the waste of so much innocent life.
Angry, see above.
Vulnerable, because after 9/11, I have come to believe that any terrorist, anywhere, can do the same thing here, again.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:09 am
Thanks, all. I wrote this list because I was actually surprised there had been so many attempts at peace. We all know there is constant war over there, but it seems the US and others at least occassionally attempt to broker peace once in a while. I can’t see it working as long as the animosity is fueled by terrorism, poverty, deep-seeded mistrust and ingrained (taught in Palestinian schools) hatred, and warfare as well as the actual literal land dispute. When one side doesn’t even ackowledge the right to exist of the other and one side wants borders re-established to prior to a war they *lost* there is not a lot of hope for peace. But, that being said, I am still hopeful. I’ve seen several documentaries about programs where they put Arab and Israeli kids and young adults together so they can get to know one another as *people* and the hate melts away. I think the most hope lies in the Palestinian Authority doing some positive things for the people instead of just inciting hatred and anger and madness.
Oh, and I was not raised Jewish, but I come from Jewish people on the side of my family I don’t know very well, and I’ve been told I am related to David “Mickey” Marcus, who some of you may know from the book and movie Cast a Giant Shadow.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:19 am
haha 3, 4, and 5 all have bill clinton involved. what does that tell you about him?
August 31st, 2008 at 11:21 am
good ball, it tells me he tried to establish a legacy for his presidency that didn’t involve blow jobs. he failed.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:22 am
hehehe goof ball, not good ball
August 31st, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Mom424, Jimmy Carter was an incompetent president. The reason that the Egyptian-Israeli peace has lasted is because of the Israelis and Egyptians, not Carter. And number four was successful as well, that doesn’t mean that Clinton was a foreign policy master. The Jordaninas wanted peace just as much as the Israelis, that’s why they managed to hammer out a treaty.
Secondly, I’m amazed, no retarded comments, I would have expected a list like this to be 50% retarded, but it was unbiased and informative. Even the comments (even if I disagree with some of them) aren’t pissing me off. Good job, rushfan.
August 31st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
its all a bunch of bologna
August 31st, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Sorry, I’ve been at lunch with my ma-in-law, and consoling Anita because she thought she’d turned the oven off and hadn’t, so she did a semi-King Alfred job on a meal she’d spent all morning preparing.
rushfan, Mom and kowzilla,
Didn’t I immediately note the irony of the high presence of Carter and Clinton with all the shit that’s been slung at them in other lists!
With Clinton, is it because blow jobs are all people want to see (what sells sensational tabloids by the millions?), or all there is to see?
I’ve said over and over. Give me a sex-mad politician to a power-mad one, and I claim history has proved me correct over and over.
With Carter is it because everyone has their own idea of national priorities, and for most these were different from Carter’s?
August 31st, 2008 at 1:05 pm
For what it’s worth, I can offer a tiny smidgeon of relevant personal experience.
As a young man, in 1962, I went botanical exploring alone in springtime as far down south as the wonderful mountains of Lebanon, including the historic cedar forest. Near Baalbek I was befriended by a young local who insisted on taking me back to his (muslim) family; sweet, kind people. They generously fed and entertained me. They also bombarded me with relentless anti-Israeli propaganda. They pointed out how Palestinian refugees, their cultural brethren, were living in utter squalor in the Lebanon. I was still psychologically near enough the nightmare of WW2 to remain mentally stunned by the horror of concentration camp images, and naïvely defended the need for a safe Jewish homeland. Then why not America, they asked, since it’s so keen on the idea and has plenty of wide open space? Whatever I suggested was met by angry and bitter rebuff. Fortunately I didn’t ask why their beloved brethren remained in such squalor and were not offered a more decent and comfortable refuge. But in any case they made it implicitly clear that if the Palestinians settled down it might be taken as signal that their supporting nations should not rise up and smash Israel into the sea one day, as Allah intended, and as would surely happen.
Not even the most beatiful of the flowers I found could compensate for the sorrow that visit planted in my soul.
Almost exactly five years later, in 1967, three of us were in Turkey at the exact moment that prophesy was attempted. We wrongly presumed the end of Israel. This time though we couldn’t renew my acquaintance with the flora of the area. The plant we wanted to investigate was literally in no-man’s land between the shelling on the Golan Heights.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:09 pm
jogiff,
You don’t get an agreement between untrusting adversaries, even if they want it, without a broker.
August 31st, 2008 at 1:14 pm
one day i will be the first person to post a comment to a list…thats my goal in life
August 31st, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Why is it that Billl Clinton is in like all of these? Wow.. That’s hilarious. I guess he’s the right person to stand for the term “make love not war”.
August 31st, 2008 at 3:47 pm
stupid
August 31st, 2008 at 3:51 pm
I can see where you are coming from Anon. i am an israeli who was raised with an opposite view but i have just become a bit desensitized to the fighting. it just seems more normal than peace at this point.
August 31st, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Nice and informative list. I love comment number 14.
August 31st, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Anon: I loved your original 14. You took out all the WTF factor by explaining it.
An Australian businessman started “Clean-up Australia Day” about 20 years ago. This has now spread to a number of countries. A couple of years ago I read an article about a group of Israelis and Palestinians who joined together quite happily to clean up a creek in their area.
There are so many layers of complexity here: historic, nationalistic, religious and economic. Where to start?
August 31st, 2008 at 4:55 pm
#38. Ginger
Why is it that Billl Clinton is in like all of these? Wow.. That’s hilarious. I guess he’s the right person to stand for the term “make love not war”.
****
Ginger, I know you’re making a joke, and it’s even amusing, but while Bill Clinton’s private life as President was abysmal, he actually was a fairly good President.
He left the nation with the strongest economy in decades, he actually left behind a surplus in the U.S. Budget! He did a lot right, politically, too bad he was such a pig personally.
OTOH, how many men aren’t just like him?
McCain was carrying on an affair with Cindy while still married to his first wife, and then dumped his wife for the one with mega-bucks.
Don’t get me started on cheaters. I could go all day.
August 31st, 2008 at 6:42 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
That was the first violent conflict in the history Israeli-Palestinian relations.
August 31st, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Unfortunately I sometimes suspect the only *solution* that will peace in the area is when the entire area between the Mediterranean and the Dead Sea is a great steaming Radioactive crater. Not my ideal solution, but just likely given the entrenched positions held by a number of Zealots on both sides who have access to nuclear weapons.
Two of the biggest stumbling blocks with most of these peace efforts are
1. The Reasoning behind outsiders efforts. ie too many of the US efforts seem to be about leaving a *legacy* to the President involved. Also the US is seen, justifiably so, as being too Pro Israel to truly treat the Palestinians fairly.
2. Due to the splintered nature of the opposition on both sides no sooner does something get brokered than some non signing party breaks the agreements, eg suicide bombers or Israeli settlements on the West Bank.
Cheers
Lee
August 31st, 2008 at 7:25 pm
If at once you don’t succeed, try and try again. Good job rushy.
August 31st, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Alright, 50 comments in and no really retarded comments. #45 is really stupid, but not retarded. Seriously, where’s the “Arabs are all terrorists,” or “Zionists control the world” comments?
August 31st, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Get off me.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:07 pm
jogiff ~ are you trying to incite a riot?
August 31st, 2008 at 8:11 pm
k1w1taxi, (45),
Keen analysis, especially your second point, alas. Although I would have thought, quite frankly, it hardly matters what motivates a broker, US president or not, if the intervention actually works.
Perhaps the Northern Ireland situation offers a glimpse of hope. It looked so intransigent at one time. However, since I’ve been suffering from raging toothache during today, I’m reminded how easily these historical conflict areas can become inflamed again, even over hundreds of years. Perhaps one just has to look at the peace settlements anywhere and hope.
I remember reading a point about Israel’s vulnerability: it being only about seven miles from the sea to the border at one point, or something. It occurred to me that may also be Israel’s greatest protection from nuclear attack. Unless some raving fundamentalist is indeed indifferent to taking out the Palestinians at the same time, which would indeed have the effect you describe. I doubt that would be the end of the story though. I suspect Israel retains the power to wreak post-mortem nuclear vengeance on any who would do that.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:19 pm
My comment 14, indeed. You rotten lot!
I thought: at last I’ve made some serious, earth-shattering revelation that people are responding to. Well, heigh-ho. I did. Ask any Chilean! (One silver, one bronze this time round: I’m British and we came fourth, I tell you.) Many a true word spoken in jest.
August 31st, 2008 at 8:31 pm
I’d forgotten another of life’s little ironies. During that period of botanical exploration in the region as above, we were accompanied for one journey by an older colleague who had been called up on British National Service during the Palestine Mandate. He was Jewish. His father had fought and died during WW1. Apart from the lack of religious orthodox *uniform* (he wasn’t religious anyway) he looked as if he might have just stepped away from the Wailing Wall. “I’m a Jew through and through. I want the best for my people.” he said “And those Israeli buggers were shooting at me all the time. Doing their best to kill one of their own!”
Apropos. One fascinating factor is the total polarisation of two charismatic, eccentric and individualistic British military heroes during the involvement of their country in the region. Lawrence of Arabia was fanatically pro-Arab and anti-Israeli. Orde-Wingate (of Burma Chindits fame) was the absolute reverse. Neither had any semitic blood.
August 31st, 2008 at 9:40 pm
u guys dont know what is really happening here
August 31st, 2008 at 10:28 pm
there are not very many people educated on this topic, so it’s unlikely it will generate very many comments. good list, though. i wish lasting peace could be achieved so it would be safe to travel to that region. it’s the cradle of life and has thousands of years of history. i wish i could go over there and visit sacred sites and see the architecture and artifacts in person, but i doubt it will be possible even in my own lifetime. maybe one day though. i understand it will be difficult since many of the major religions all believe they should “own” the land, among other issues. so sad such a religious area stands for none of the beliefs said religions preach.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:06 pm
segue (43) “Don’t get me started on cheaters. I could go on all day.”
Me, too. All men cheat. John Edwards and on and on and on and on and on…
August 31st, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Philosopher, (55),
“All men cheat.”
Men? Try Margaret Thatcher on the sinking of the Belgrano in the Flaklands War.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Another of my famous Fraudian slips. I mean Falklands War, of course.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:19 pm
modelpenguin, (54),
Don’t give up hope. It is astonishing how volatile political situations can be in both directions, and how rapidly change can veer from effectively stable and peaceful to strife-shattered and vice-versa. Germany, Chile, Lebanon, Tibet, Uganda, Columbia, Peru, Burma, the list just goes on and on.
August 31st, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Really interesting. Thanks for puting this list togeather rushfan
September 1st, 2008 at 5:35 am
Anon: Don’t you mean Freudian and not ‘Fraudian’? Or was that another slip?
September 1st, 2008 at 6:04 am
Great list Rushfan
September 1st, 2008 at 8:22 am
I always see such Nice lessons here… Thanq Rushfan… I don’t have to worry submitting my lessons or projects back to you
September 1st, 2008 at 12:04 pm
I sort of like Fraudian slips. They make sense. After all, what they people who are cheating are doing, are committing fraud against their spouses.
So all hail fraudian slips!
September 1st, 2008 at 12:05 pm
…what *THE* people…
September 1st, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Clouds, (60),
Sorry, I’ve been off the air most of the day with toothache.
As segue has said of herself elsewhere: by and large I choose my words with care.
flak, n. (German deriv.)anti-aircraft fire (abbr. of Fliegerabwehrkanone).
Hence the Falklands were also the Flaklands during the war.
Also in more recent sense of receiving fierce critical verbal attack.
As for: A lot of political flak was thrown at Maggie Thatcher for the Belgrano episode.
You may take Fraudian either as word-play or an implicit view of the great man’s psychoanalysis theories, as you will.
September 2nd, 2008 at 8:18 am
rushfan
Would you mind if I asked whether the Jews in your family were from you mothers side?
You don’t have to answer.
If you would like to answer in a more private arena Please ask JFrater for my email address.
JFrater – If rushfan asks for my email address please give it to him.
Thanks
September 2nd, 2008 at 8:31 am
oose85 ~ Sure, it’s my dad’s side, I’ve never met him. And I’m a her.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:57 am
rushfan,
I hope that the overwhelmingly thoughtful and positive responses so far to your careful historical profile are indicative that it may be throwing light into dark corners. Well done.
September 2nd, 2008 at 10:43 am
Rushfan – Thank you
September 2nd, 2008 at 11:07 am
oose85 ~ no prob. why do you ask?
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Was just curious, you had mentioned Jewish relatives and said that you were not Jewish and I know that there are many people that don’t know that Judaism goes maternally.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
So i figured that I would ask.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
What do you mean Judaism goes maternally? It’s not a chromosome.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Okay, I looked it up, and according to the internet, “The strictest definition of a Jew is one whose mother was Jewish.” I got it.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
The whole thing with the chromosome was that they dicovered a difference in the Y chromosome in people from the Levite tribe. they did studies and found that difference only in people claiming to be from Aaron the high priest, be they Sefardic or Ashkenazic (eastern (eg: Europe, America) or western (eg: Asia, Africa)
To date no other people have been found with the chromosom difference.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:54 pm
That’s cool, oose85, thanks for the info. The funny thing about my family is that I have spoken to my father on the phone and he’s actually anti-jew, which I found hard to understand. We actually got into a fight because he was spouting all this crazy shit about Isrealis committing warcrimes and I still don’t quite understand a Jewish man being antisemetic. So maybe it’s better if I don’t get to know him too well. I guess he doesn’t consider himself Jewish.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:33 pm
rushfan, I am stunned by your father’s attitude. I could easily understand him not being a practicing Jew, even following another religion, as being a Jew is ethnic, not religious, but to be viciously anti-semitic is just bizarre.
Yeah, I agree with you, you’re better off without him.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Segue ~ You’re telling me! As I’ve said, I’ve never met my biological father, and we only recently began phone contact and exchanging emails. So when we got into a political discussion, as I’m inclined to do, I was happy he interested, but then quickly shocked by his out of the mainstream views on Israel. I fear he’s getting his info from nutjob websites or something. In the end we agreed to disagree, but I’m much more careful about what topics I bring up now. I stick mainly to how the baby’s doing and stuff.
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:01 pm
I have to disagree with your choice of number 1.
The road map is pretty vague and has yet to yield any result. How could it top Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty?
September 2nd, 2008 at 6:09 pm
rushfan, is it not possible that your father may not be anti-semitic, but simply critical of Israel? While Israel and Judaism are inextricably linked, not all Jewish people are also Israelis, thus your father may have issues with what he perceives to be Israel’s policies towards Palestinians, not Jewish people per se.
Additionally, while you mentioned that your father’s views were ‘out of the mainstream’, there exists a large body of impartial scholarly work that does not agree with the ‘mainstream’ explanation of the conflict.
Having said all of that, well done on an excellent list!
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
massoluk ~ Dude. It’s in chronological order. None of them have been successful, silly, except the ones noted in comment 13.
critique ~ Thanks. It is entirely possible that you are correct. I am going over our heated discussion in my mind again, and it seems most of his arguement was based on the “right of return” and refugee issues, as well as what he perceives as war crimes. I was so shocked to hear views so different from mine and from someone I knew came from a Jewish family that I was quite taken aback. Thanks for your thoughtful input, it means a lot to me.
September 2nd, 2008 at 10:35 pm
rushfan, (81),
Whatever the basis of your father’s position, to be throwing inflamatory phrases such as ‘war crimes’ around one-sidedly in so complex a situation, strikes me as a totally non-objective *agenda*. By complex, I would include, for example nations opposed to Israel which are under no threat or risk whatever themselves, yet which are ideologically devoted to elimiating Israel and all its citizens from the map, no holds barred. Among those same nations is at least one which has also officially denied that the Holocaust existed.
I wonder if your father may have some deep psychological resentment against his Jewish blood for where he feels it leaves him in the evaluation of others? I find it very disturbing here in South America how many people (inevitably mainly women) feel such a sense of inferiority and shame, that they wish to try to conceal their lovely dark Latin or indian natural looks by dying their shining raven hair like bleached straw. If they could dye their eyes pale blue, and manipulate their complexions to look like Michael Jackson’s, they’d do that too. My generation is still still close enough to the history to recall with horror Hitler proclaiming those as the physical characteristics which characterized his declared master race; *dark* nations being categorized as Untermenschen, fit only for slavery, or in the case of Jewish peoples and some others, extermination.
September 3rd, 2008 at 5:46 am
Anon ~ Unfortunately (or fortunately possibly) I don’t know him nearly well enough to know his motivations, and I have no plans to approach the subject for further deeper discussion. But life is long and who knows, maybe I’ll gain some insight into his mind in the years to come. Maybe we’ll even meet face to face some day.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:26 am
Segue – Being a Jew IS religious, being a semite is ethnic. To be a Jew is to be born to a Jewish mother, regardless of her religious affiliation – because we believe that even a non practicing jew is NOT lost to the religion. We look at the religion as more of a way of life, a path so to speak, where even if one goes off the path they can easily reenter the path at a later point.Therefore, we view a Jew as always Jewish, even when practicing another faith.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:28 am
That is also why when a jewish person who was practicing another faith wants to come back they do not have to go through a conversion process – they NEVER truly left the religion.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:29 am
Rushfan – Thank you for the info. I am sorry if I inadvertently led you down an unpleasant memory lane.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:49 am
oose85 ~ No, not at all. Actually, I had thought maybe we were related or something since I disclosed I was related to David Marcus in a comment above.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:49 am
lol
no relation. although I did mention one of my relations in a previous post in this conversation.
Just an interesting tidbit about me.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:54 am
oose85 ~ Where? I checked & I don’t see anything…
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:16 am
Aaron the High Priest. I am of direct decent, father to son.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:38 am
Wow, sounds pretty impressive. I’ll have to look him up.
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:41 am
His brother is world famous. Enjoy your search.
September 3rd, 2008 at 12:57 pm
rushfan – you can read about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:37 pm
84. oose85, sorry for the error. I was going on information given me by a good friend, a Jew, who apparently knew less than I thought he did. Or than he did.
Oh, anyway, thank you for clearing it up.
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:06 pm
segue – no apology needed, and no offense taken. I am happy to have helped clear it up. should you have any further questions feel free to contact me, you can get my email address from jf.
September 4th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
It seems like the only way for that area to solve their problems is to duke it out til there is only one left standing.
September 17th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Sady the Arab’s and Israelis will never ever have peace. They will never agree. Nuking the whole area is the most realistic way to achieve peace. So prepare for at least another 5,000 years of bickering
March 30th, 2009 at 6:45 am
ive noticed that Bill Clinton is in 4 of them :S
Seems like he brought peace to arab-israeli nations!
September 1st, 2009 at 1:00 am
Thank you Rushfan for a well written and informative list. I never knew my biological father either but I know that he was German-American and that I still have relatives in Munich(whom I have met and got to know) but my mother was the daughter of Polish Jews. I can’t help but think that one side of my family was killing the other side of my family 60 odd years ago.
January 3rd, 2010 at 10:36 am
Совсем недавно попал на Ваш блог, теперь каждое утро захожу посмотреть, не написали ли чего новенького.
К сожалению только Вы не каждый день Ваш сайт обновляете 