7 Terrible Abuses Suffered By Women Around The World
Published on June 10, 2008 - 484 Comments
NOTE: Some readers may find the text and images on this list disturbing. For most of our readers, the biggest troubles in their lives are petrol prices, long working hours, and increasing food costs. For many women in the world, these are the least of their concerns. Terrible atrocities are committed against untold numbers of women around the world every day and for most of these women, justice will never be served. This is a list of the worst of the atrocities. In no particular order:
Bride kidnapping is a common practice in Kyrgyzstan and Turkmenistan. When it is time to get married in Kyrgyzstan, a man or his family will pick a woman and she will be kidnapped. The prospective groom and his male relatives or friends or both abduct the girl (in the old nomadic days, on horseback; now often by car) and take her to the family home, where the older women of the family try to get her to accept the marriage. Some families will keep the girl hostage for several days to break her will. Others will let her go if she remains defiant. The kidnapped woman’s family may also become involved in the process, either urging the woman to stay if the marriage is believed to be socially acceptable or advantageous for the prospective bride and her family, or opposing the marriage on various grounds and helping liberate the woman.
In Ethiopia and Rwanda it is quite brutal, where the man kidnaps the woman and rapes her. The family of the woman either then feels obliged to consent to the union, or is forced to when the kidnapper impregnates her, as no one else would marry a pregnant woman.
Honor Killing is a punitive murder, committed by members of a family against a female member of their family whom the family and/or wider community believes to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman is usually targeted for: refusing an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce (even from an abusive husband), or committing adultery or fornication. These killings result from the perception that any behavior of a woman that “dishonors” her family is justification of a killing that would otherwise be deemed murder. UNICEF has reported that in India, more than 5,000 brides are killed annually because their marriage dowries are considered insufficient. As of 2004, honor killings have occurred within parts of various countries, such as Albania, Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Ecuador, Germany, India, Iraq, Israel, Italy, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, Uganda, United Kingdom and the United States.
Bride Burning is a form of domestic violence practiced in parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other countries located on or around the Indian subcontinent. In bride burning cases it is alleged that a man, or his family, douses his wife with kerosene, gasoline, or other flammable liquid, and sets the woman alight, leading to death by fire.
Acid Attacks are a violent phenomena that primarily occur in Afghanistan. Perpetrators of these attacks throw acid at their victims (usually at their faces), burning them. The consequences include permanent scarring of the face and body as well as potential blindness. Acid attacks are sometimes referred to as vitriolage.
Female genital mutilation refers to all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural, religious or other non-therapeutic reasons. FGM is practiced throughout the world, with the practice concentrated most heavily in Africa. There have been many concerted efforts by the WHO to end the practice. Among practicing cultures, FGM is most commonly performed between the ages of four and eight, but can take place at any age from infancy to adolescence. The procedure, when performed without anesthetic, can lead to death through shock from immense pain or excessive bleeding.
Since the fall of the iron curtain, the impoverished former Eastern bloc countries such as Albania, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine have been identified as major trafficking source countries for women and children. Young women and girls are often lured to wealthier countries by the promise of money and work and then reduced to sexual slavery. It is estimated that 2/3 of women trafficked for prostitution worldwide annually come from Eastern Europe, three-quarters have never worked as prostitutes before. The major destinations are Western Europe (Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, UK and Greece), the Middle East (Turkey, Israel, the United Arab Emirates), Asia, Russia and the United States. An estimated 500,000 women from Central and Eastern Europe are working in prostitution in the EU alone.
In parts of Ghana, a family may be punished for an offense by having to turn over a virgin female to serve as a sex slave within the offended family. In this system of slavery of ritual servitude, young virgin girls are given as slaves in traditional shrines and are used sexually by the priests in addition to providing free labor. [Image above: two young female slaves]
This article is licensed under the GFDL because it contains quotations from Wikipedia.
Contributor: rushfan
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1. Navik - June 10th, 2008 at 6:15 am
can’t believe some of this stuff goes on in the world
2. dangorironhide - June 10th, 2008 at 6:19 am
Jesus this list is depressing… It’s disgusting that these things still go on in the world.
A well written list I think, nice one rushfan.
3. Mal - June 10th, 2008 at 6:24 am
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”
-Sir Charles Napier, upon hearing of the Indian custom of Sati (burning widows alive on their husbands’ funeral pyres)
4. SocialButterfly - June 10th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Very well written rushfan. I appreciate your efforts to bring these disgusting acts to the world stage.
Well done!
5. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 6:28 am
Thank you for respecting the seriousness of this list. I feel, as a woman in the Western world, that it is my duty to not only appreciate my freedom, but at the very least educate myself about what life is like as a woman in the rest of the world.
6. Danni Lynn - June 10th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Really makes you appreciate living in the US, eh?
7. Toxic - June 10th, 2008 at 6:49 am
a few years ago after the albanian conflict dyncorp(an american company) pleaded guilty to selling over 200,000 women and children into slavery. Nothing was done, no penalties were paid, no one was punished, and dyncorp is in Iraq right now making hundreds of millions . But we wont talk about that since jfrater isnt a “conspiracy person”.
8. Randall - June 10th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Very, very good (if utterly depressing and heart-wrenching) list. Sometimes we forget how many repugnant things are going on in the world around us, and how often women (and children) are the victim of them.
Nice, too, that this list isn’t simply an Islam-bash-fest.
Well done.
9. Arabella - June 10th, 2008 at 6:51 am
I am absolutely horrified at the stuff that women are put through. This list actually made me cry and never again will I take it for granted that I am a Canadian citizen. The people that actually commit these horrors against women will have to answer to someone one day and I hope they’re treated exactly the same way as they have treated these women. Karma does work!
10. Kristin - June 10th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Very good list!
It is really heart breaking to know that these things go on around the world.
11. Robeywan - June 10th, 2008 at 7:08 am
Wow, how depressing. So sad that most of these inhumanities are sanctioned (or appear to be) by other women. As humans we should not hesitate to take action against such injustices, as a man, I am no less guilty of inaction. This is just horrific.
12. Bob - June 10th, 2008 at 7:10 am
So, who’s against the death penalty now? Eh?
13. WarningDontReadThis - June 10th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Damn,this makes me so happy that I don’t live in Iran any longer. I’m more angry at the women that allow things like this to happen than with the men. Cause surely they’ve suffered some abuse too, they should be able to do something. Even though it is hard. Very informative list.
14. Joel H. - June 10th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Well. That was personally the most sobering and depressing list I’ve ever read on the ‘Verse. The Bride Kidnapping practices were completely unknown to me, and though I’ve read about it before, the fact that families commit “honor killings” against victims of sexual abuse is just mind boggling.
15. Robeywan - June 10th, 2008 at 7:18 am
sorry Bob, not I. When we have a perfect judicial system that doesn’t favor the rich and we have a device that insures no falsely accused will be punish AND when politics are removed from the process, I may consider it.
16. robneiderman - June 10th, 2008 at 7:18 am
So what do we think are proper punishments for the people who commit these atrocities? I’m thinking maybe public buggering with a pumice stone. Follow that up with castration…with a hammer. That sounds fair.
17. toolnut - June 10th, 2008 at 7:21 am
It makes me ill. Words cannot describe the sorrow I feel that these practices are still around in our “civilized” society.
18. WarningDontReadThis - June 10th, 2008 at 7:23 am
This list is gonna “haunt” me for some time…
19. greensweetshoes - June 10th, 2008 at 7:25 am
what´s wrong with the world! I just wish evil around the world would stop and that we all could live free and happy… a girl can dream can´t she?
20. WarningDontReadThis - June 10th, 2008 at 7:27 am
greensweetshoes: Not these girls..
21. AnotherEngine - June 10th, 2008 at 7:28 am
In the picture for #7, why does the woman in the background look so damn happy??
22. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Joel ~ I saw a documentary on it once and I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. As with all of the practices on this list, it’s hard to comprehend unless you exerience these cultures. I fear these things. We are all responsible for, at the very least, a basic awareness of what our fellow humans are enduring.
And I whole-heartedly agree, it’s inconceivable that women perpetuate these atrocities against their fellow women. Especially FGM.
23. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Toxic ~ no one from the Khmer Rouge was ever held accountable. nothing would surprise me.
24. Harsha - June 10th, 2008 at 7:37 am
I agree with Randall. When I saw the title I expected it to be filled with gore from Afghanistan and the likes. It’s an eye-opener to see that such stuff happens everywhere in the world including developed countries like Canada,Sweden,Germany,etc.
Thank You Rushfan for this great list.
25. Sharki - June 10th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Toxic - Do you have a refrence for this? The Wiki article on Dyncorp makes no mention of this.
26. Wally - June 10th, 2008 at 7:39 am
#8 - My 10 inch vegetable has caused third degree burns to numerous virgins
27. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Thanks, Harsha. I actually could have gone on, but researching this stuff was very depressing, as you can imagine. I would have put more data on the sexual slave trade, but stats are hard to come by because it is such a huge industry and it affects so very, very many countries.
28. Tamala - June 10th, 2008 at 7:44 am
great list rushfan, superb job, it must have been extremely emotional to compile, as a man i dont know if i could have done it and kept my feelings in check in the narrative as well as you did, you have my utmost respect.
29. dangorironhide - June 10th, 2008 at 7:46 am
AnotherEngine: She may be a member of the girl’s family who supports the marriage she will be forced into.
Wally: Please keep you inappropriate and immature comments for ebaums, they don’t belong here.
30. Wally - June 10th, 2008 at 7:48 am
dangorironhide : stop laughing then
31. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 7:49 am
I am touched by the responses to my list. It is extremely emotional for me as a woman and a mother of a baby daughter. I honestly in my soul feel an obligation to do something for these women (and children) but like many people, I feel helpless. What can be done? I don’t know. But once you know about these things, you can’t say you don’t. It’s a start.
32. dangorironhide - June 10th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Wally: I would be laughing if it was funny. Your comment isn’t.
33. flgh - June 10th, 2008 at 7:54 am
“Canada, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, United Kingdom and the United States.”
Honor killings take place in these countries?!
34. Mom424 - June 10th, 2008 at 7:54 am
Excellent and sobering list. Good to remind us all of how lucky we are.
Unfortunately people bring their culture with them wherever they go. That is why there are incidences of FGM, honor killings and the like all over the world, even in western countries.
The best way to help these women is through education. Many of these people know no other way of living. It may be uncomfortable to acknowledge that in this day and age we have people living a life of ignorance, submission, and superstition; but it is true. We all share the shame.
35. otay - June 10th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Great list, well compiled. Im a man, and this was a very emotional and difficult list to read. :*(
36. Tamala - June 10th, 2008 at 8:01 am
rushfan you ask what cane be done? you are doing a huge service to women in these situations by educating the readers of this site. Education is the best weapon against these abuses, education can be elightening but can also be depressing and even dangerous, but id rather know something and be disturbed about it, that not know at all.. To paraphrase Edmund Burke “All it will take for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing”
37. mflo - June 10th, 2008 at 8:03 am
This list makes me want to flush multiculturalism and “inter-cultural understanding” down the drain more than I already do. I would like to hear some proponent of political correctness and multicultural universalism justify these atrocities under the guise of “understanding” and “culture respect.” There is no room for political correctness when women are getting maimed and burned alive. Some actions are just wrong, plain and simple.
38. mflo - June 10th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Mom424 - No, we DO NOT all share the shame. The propagating parties of these horrific acts own the shame.
39. segue - June 10th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Though I had heard, or rather read, of most of these horrors before, the addition of actual photographs, taken as the event happens in most case, appalls me even more!
I can’t begin to imagine what goes through the mind of the victim as the fear and pain envelopes them. I’m quite sure I don’t want to know.
As to those who practice these evil atrocities (yes, I know that’s redundant, but this is so overwhelming it’s deserved), I can only hope that some day they will have to answer for their actions.
40. mflo - June 10th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Flgh – when countries do not encourage assimilation, 3rd world practices and atrocities are carried over and embed into certain parts of the culture. Once again, I lambast the obsession with multiculturalism – it has gone from a doctrine of understanding and education, to a mantra of moral relativism and “looking the other way.” The only way to root out these disgusting acts and all other reprehensible aspects of other cultures is to demand assimilation, not pandering and bowing to the cultural divides.
41. misc. - June 10th, 2008 at 8:11 am
You neglected to mention the 20% of American women have been physically assaulted by partners. That equates to well over 20 million women being victims of domestic abuse…do these ‘abuses’ only count when they’re happening in other ‘backwards’ cultures? This seems more like an attempt to take a patronizing, stereoptypical view at non-western cultures to make yourself feel better. You don’t understand these cultures fully, clearly, as all of the items on this list have been copied from wikipedia. I don’t know about these cultures much either, but thats why im not judging them based on an internet encyclopaedia and a questionable moral highground.
42. Harsha - June 10th, 2008 at 8:13 am
@mflo yes we do, unfortunately. Being oblivious to such problems across the world is in itself a type of crime.Merely being educated isn’t going to stop these atrocities. We need to actually stand up and help our fellow women to stand up to horrific acts like these.
43. Mom424 - June 10th, 2008 at 8:15 am
mflo; Yes we do, as a progressive society, for being so smug and self-serving in our attitudes to the rest of the world. How much has the west done to increase education, raise the standard of living in the rest of the world? Now compare it to what we could have done. How many schools, wells, and the like could have been funded with say a tenth of the American defense budget? That is my point.
44. Blacknimbus - June 10th, 2008 at 8:15 am
“Between 1993 and 2001, there were 109 “honour killings” in Britain”
Source: UK Telegraph
“Sarah Said, 17, and Amina Said, 18, were found fatally shot Jan. 1 in their father’s taxi at a Las Colinas hotel. Family and friends have said Yaser Said was angry because the girls were dating non-Muslim boys.”
Source: Fort Worth Star Telegram
“Slain schoolgirl Aqsa Parvez will be buried tomorrow” “The 16-year-old Mississauga girl died Monday after she was strangled in her Longhorn Trail home after quarreling with family for months over her desire to shed the hijab, the traditional Muslim headscarf.”
Source: Toronto Star
““Canada, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, United Kingdom and the United States.”
Honor killings take place in these countries?!”
Yes, they do take place in these countries.
45. dave4248 - June 10th, 2008 at 8:16 am
These things don’t happen in America, but of course we American men get blamed for it anyway, judging by at least SOME of the previous posters.
46. Mom424 - June 10th, 2008 at 8:18 am
mflo; All the incidences of FGM and honor killing that have happened here have been prosecuted. The practice is not excused or condoned here. Not to say that the punishment is harsh enough always, but that is true of most violent crime in this country.
47. angerman - June 10th, 2008 at 8:32 am
It makes me sick to my stomach to think that the people who do these things are still considered human.
48. Harsha - June 10th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Slightly off topic here, but highly relevant.
I always thought that all suicide bombers,etc were just @$$holes and scums on this planet who deserve to die. But my perception of this problem changed entirely when I was asked to do a project on suicide bombers a few years ago.
This story is a true documented story that I came across and I’ll paste the link if I can find it.
A suicide bomber failed in his attempt to blow up a US convoy in Iraq at the start of the Iraq war. Instead he was captured and held by the US troops. A reporter managed to gain access and coaxed him to tell his side of the story.
This bomber was barely in his twenties.He said that during the first Gulf war, when he was barely 8 or 9 US troops invaded his village. All male members who offered resistance were shot. His mother and three sisters were raped in front of him and his younger brother.
He says he was extremely traumatized from the experience and has lived alone for nearly his entire teen life, until he was taken in by a rebel group(a jihad propogating group) and was trained in arms. He himself volunteered for the suicide mission, as he wanted revenge against the Americans.
I know that this is off-topic but I wrote this in response to all those people saying that other countries are in no way responsible for atrocities that happen in these countries.
49. JwJwBean - June 10th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Great list Rushfan. I am glad that many of these are brought out in the open.
Misc.: I am not sure what we need to understand of a culture to accept killing of other people? A questionable moral highground? Interesting. I am sure you will be fine going to live in one of these countries as a woman. The abuse in America is very valid, but it is also not acceptable in the US. These are practiced, accepted, and encouraged in these countries.
50. Joss - June 10th, 2008 at 8:40 am
It’s amazing how much we complain on a daily basis about this and that. Bag traffic, a poorly made salad, a day that drags on too slowly. Last night I was complaining about not having brownies - I was really annoyed about it. Puts things into perspective.
51. Joss - June 10th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Bag=bad
52. Wally - June 10th, 2008 at 8:45 am
No brownies? That sucks!
53. segue - June 10th, 2008 at 8:45 am
rushfan: I meant to include earlier, but was too shaken…Fabulous List.
Educational, emotionally wrenching, and while not offering any solutions, at least open the door for people to start considering solutions. This is a List that deserves consideration for 2008 MVL, if there is one.
If there isn’t, I’ll put it on mine.
54. Sharki - June 10th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Harsha - Even if you can find said documentary, I would need a lot more proof that this incident happened than the word of a terrorist.
55. Blacknimbus - June 10th, 2008 at 9:02 am
Re: misc - “do these ‘abuses’ only count when they’re happening in other ‘backwards’ cultures?”
No, but the reaction of the societies where these atrocities occur do ‘count’.
“An Iraqi teenage girl was brutally murdered by her father in an “honour killing” after she fell in love with a British soldier in Basra.”
“When her father learned she had been seen speaking to a foreigner he rushed home and butchered her, strangling and stabbing her while screaming that he was “cleansing his honour”.
“He was arrested, but Iraqi police took no action. His wife has since left him and is in hiding.”
“Because her family considered her impure, Rand was given only a simple burial. Her uncles spat in her grave to show their disgust.”
Source: Daily Mail UK
56. Shadow - June 10th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I read nearly all of the comments, and not one that I read mentioned anyone being angry, just depressed.
Well, I’m angry! I hate that these things go on, and while I can be respectful of another’s cultural beliefs, women are human beings too, and deserving of love and respect, not hatred and abuse.
Until enough of us get angry enough, things like this will continue.
Wally, only idiots who are lacking in that area of the body make comments like yours. If you feel the need to compensate for that lack, go buy a sports car, or jump off of a very high, steep cliff. Don’t bring your ignorance here. It’s unwanted.
57. MzFly - June 10th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Very sobering list. But certainly needed, as I believe most of us here were not fully aware of these acts and the widespread acceptance of them.
It kills me that my country’s government turns their backs and wallets away from these atrocities and yet finances killing in the name of democracy.
I definitely believe we are all guilty because I’m sure many human beings are bought and sold here in the US.
58. Randall - June 10th, 2008 at 9:07 am
misc.:
Please. There’s a big difference between appreciating and understanding the intricacies of another culture–such as why some people around the world think Americans smile too much, or why it’s considered the height of rudeness to eat with one’s left hand in much of the Near East, and so on–but there’s a point where “multi-culturalism” becomes nothing more than a mealy-mouthed excuse for not taking a stand… probably because it requires too much backbone on the part of some of us.
The real trick to being culturally aware and sophisticated is to be able to make the necessary and needed judgement calls while still keeping one’s finger digging away at the mote in one’s own eye. The West is not pristine and blameless about many things. But that doesn’t mean we can’t call out a Wrong when we see one, regardless of who’s committing it.
Cleaning up our own act is always a good thing. But it shouldn’t stop us from standing up and demanding that things change around the world as well.
Despite governments and national boundaries, we live in a world community that must have certain standards. Unfortunately, of course, there’s no way to really establish such standards, let alone enforce them. All we have left, then, is protest and education. We can, as people and governments, continue to beat at the doors of other cultures, hoping that gradually, they come to change the gross injustices which they allow.
Of course, this has the “danger” of coming back around to bite us in the ass. We must be prepared to admit to our own faults and injustices, and to change them. But just because I stole my neighbor’s weed whacker the other day, that won’t stop me from turning him in when he beats his wife and kids.
I should of course return the weed whacker and steal no more. And it’s my responsibility to do so, and to understand why it’s wrong. But don’t tell me that there’s something I need to “understand” when I see the other guy hitting his wife. No no no. We all know wrongs when we see them, regardless of how tainted we ourselves may be in other ways.
59. arvaamita - June 10th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Wow, what a heavy and very sobering list! Thank you rushfan for creating this list. Education is the first step!
It is a sick atrocity that these kinds of things are allowed and actually done around the world in so many countries. Damn them all to Hell that think these actions are justified and ok! Though there are also many people working at putting a stop to this - good for them, I hope we can all do something!
So, where do we go from here?
60. Scar - June 10th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Do these honor killings seriously take place in the U.S?
I mean, I can understand in some middle eastern countries where the government doesn’t give a rats ass about the women, but in the U.S that’s murder, and you can get life in prison.
Someone enlighten me?
61. SMD - June 10th, 2008 at 9:16 am
arvaamita: The problem with trying to do something in countries that practice the above (and I think the genital mutilation and the slavery are the worst and are absolutely sick and disgusting), is that these countries don’t want change. We can bitch and moan about it all we want on this side of the world. We can even show up and try to take women away, but ultimately the only way we can deal with the barbaric, disgusting, vile practices these people do is to go to war. None of us want that. We’re not willing to go to war to fight the subjugation of women in other countries.
Even economic sanctions, UN embargoes, etc. will do nothing. You might get the government to make things illegal, but you can’t get that government to enforce that law or get the people to stop doing it.
We live in a screwed up world and a lot of the people in it do evil things and think it is right. Brutality has no excuses.
62. Wally - June 10th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Shadow: I already own a sports car thankyou.
63. JwJwBean - June 10th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Scar: There are many immigrants from these other countries who have brought their beliefs and customs with them. So yes they do happen in UK, US, etc.
64. Randall - June 10th, 2008 at 9:40 am
SMD:
No, SMD, we don’t need to go to war. That’s George Bush-talk. The alternative is vigorous engagement with these cultures–right now they isolate themselves from us and we from them. Over time, exchanges, education, information—these things can go a long way to changing things.
No, it’s not guaranteed to work, and is in fact more likely to fail. But war is no guarantee either, and is equally likely to fail. Some ideas and changes in ideas can’t be imposed. They have to worm their way in and undermine the injustices they’re meant to replace over time. It’s often the only way.
65. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Here in the US it used to be legal to beat your wife. (Not to mention *own* another human being, but that’s another list)It took women organizing, with the support of men, to get laws changed. The civil rights movements (race, gender) are success stories here. However, they (and we) have the *right* to protest, to organize, to speak out, to be against things. In these other countries they don’t have that right. At all. If you live in a burqua, what are your options? If you are valued so little that your life has no meaning, what do you do?
66. Wally - June 10th, 2008 at 9:49 am
hello.
67. Kiribub - June 10th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Interesting, if awful, list.
68. Kiribub - June 10th, 2008 at 9:56 am
dangorironhide, Shadow: School is out. It is ever the amusement of children to enter the discussions of adults and interject amusing, whimsical comments. (read: trolls) Pay them no mind.
69. jazj - June 10th, 2008 at 10:09 am
I am very angry that these types of things are still allowed to happen in any country. It offends me as a woman, period. I can’t begin to vocalize what I would like to say about these practises, but women have been devalued throughout past times and I feel very lucky to have been born in the United States. Things aren’t always fair to the feminine point of view here, but at least I can freely speak out about it without fear of being persecuted.
70. PT - June 10th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Well done rushfan your comments at #66 show why we have to tollerate idiots like Wally although if someone want’s to ban him from this site I won’t argue on his behalf
71. Adia - June 10th, 2008 at 10:24 am
How disturbing. This list did bring me to tears. It’s so unfair that these women were born into cultures like these. As a fortunate girl born into a fortunate culture it’s important to get the education needed and then work hard to see these things stopped.
Ignore Wally, he just wants attention. He can go get it somewhere else.
72. AlphabetFish - June 10th, 2008 at 10:26 am
A teacher of mine once told me that humanity has in it an altruism gene, because being a good, cooperative person is a lot better for your survival than being a wayward jerk.
I think, though, that most important gene is the self-preservation gene, the one that allows us to put our happiness above anything else, even at the cost of another’s suffering. If it doesn’t hurt us, we can ignore it.
73. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 10:32 am
a depressing and eye-opening list.
it made me very angry, and it made me think of the atrocities that MEN suffer throughout the world (some at the hands of women!)
*false accusations of rape (feign consent when it happens, then cry foul in the morning)
*using pregnancy to trap men financially
*drafted into war at a young or inexperienced age
*family court systems designed to favor the mother (alimony, palimony, parental rights)
*death for the sake of science, exploration, politics, war, etc. because women are deemed too fragile and unable to participate
*health issues caused by workplace stress of being sole breadwinner
*forced to stay behind in burning buildings and sinking ships
Men have taken the role of leader and protector ever since cavemen hunted while cavewomen farmed, and have flourished. Our reward? A nagging wife, early death and a spoiled/protected family.
Equal rights = equal responsibilities
74. Rohde - June 10th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Speechless doesn’t quite cover it.
75. PT - June 10th, 2008 at 10:37 am
copperdragon - mate I think you missed the point somewhere along the line
76. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 10:37 am
lets break out the great global tally-sheet, and see which gender has suffered more.
i realize that the items on the women’s list are involuntary for them. Men suffer involuntary atrocities as well.
77. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 10:39 am
oh - and men suffer genital mutilation in the name of religion as well. it’s called circumcision, and its done before the baby can even voice the words “no”.
78. erin lynne - June 10th, 2008 at 10:39 am
i bet the vast majority of people who read with will be depressed by what they read yet will do absolutely nothing about it. they will go on with their day & forget about the atrocities that are commonplace in some countries. if only half the people who read this did something, even something small, to help these women the world would be a better place. like AlphabetFish said: I think, though, that most important gene is the self-preservation gene, the one that allows us to put our happiness above anything else, even at the cost of another’s suffering. If it doesn’t hurt us, we can ignore it.
& that’s what most people will do; ignore these women’s suffering.
79. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 10:41 am
PT - i got the point. i’m making what’s called a “counterpoint”. it’s used in debates.
80. Diogenes - June 10th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Good work rushfan.
It’s difficult to answer the “what can be done” question. Prevention is obvious, but from a personal standpoint, I feel somewhat helpless, having to go about my day with this all on mind. Atrosities, the world over can be overwhelming to any compassionate soul.
Unjust crimes and abuse to woman and children is aborrent.
81. NestorV - June 10th, 2008 at 10:46 am
After seeing this list, there has to be something said about Western Civilization being superior.
82. mflo - June 10th, 2008 at 10:47 am
“@mflo yes we do, unfortunately. Being oblivious to such problems across the world is in itself a type of crime…” – Harsha
Harsha, being oblivious to a crime is not a crime (no mens rea). To be held responsible for the actions of others in other countries is a rather strange concept, especially when we have no diplomatic ties with that country (I am aware these actions are taking place in countries that we do have ties with). Even being aware of the atrocities does not place shame or blame on non-practitioners. But there is responsibility placed on those who know of the atrocities. And for those who do not act, the shame he or she bears is the shame of cowardice and weak moral fiber, NOT the shame of committing atrocities (there is a gradient of shame apparently).
“How much has the west done to increase education, raise the standard of living in the rest of the world?” – Mom424
Mom424: these are cultural issues, not “the US is not spending enough money” issue. The US spends billions of tax payer money on foreign aid. Money and education are not the “silver bullet,” I don’t think there is a silver bullet. Things are not so simple. Furthermore, I am having trouble with your condemnation of the US as self serving in light of this issue. Do you advocate an invasion to police and eliminate these practices? Do you suggest that the US impose western ideals on these countries and areas that crop these atrocities?
All in all, the only shame that can be shared is that of human fallibility and quick resurgence into barbarism. But to be held responsible for these specific acts on the sole grounds that they merely exist, is not valid reason for shame.
Now, with that said, I think there is a responsibility for capable countries to eradicate tyrants and disgusting practices, but not out of shame - - out of goodness and the desire to eradicate human suffering.
83. PT - June 10th, 2008 at 10:47 am
copperdragon - if your offering to play devils advocate that’s fine but if you truely believe what your saying then I think your totaly off the mark. As a bloke I would gladly give up my life for my family without thinking that my wife should have taken on the role
84. Csimmons - June 10th, 2008 at 10:56 am
wow, and i was so happy before this list, damn
85. Randall - June 10th, 2008 at 10:56 am
copperdragon:
Oh man, are you stepping in it.
Listen, to begin with, circumcision of males (in the West) is done largely for reasons of hygiene. There are arguments against it, but for the most part the practice has remained supportable as there are statistics indicating that, among other things, it reduces instances of cancer and STDs to some extent. It’s done to infants (though some societies outside of the West perform it on adolescents) because the trauma to them is theoretically slight and is quickly forgotten (I can’t remember mine, thankfully).
Circumcision of females, however, is most often done to A) adolescent girls and B) not for reasons of hygiene, but in order to compromise or even rob all sensations of pleasure. Which is simply a matter of subjugation, humiliation, and dominance.
So there’s no comparison.
True, yes, men suffer. All human beings suffer. Stupidly, we continually make EACH OTHER suffer, and have been doing so for thousands of years. We monkeys are so smart. But let’s not be disingenuous about it. As a species we subscribe to war (however wrong it may be) as a means of settling our differences. It’s godawful, but men submit to it not simply at the point of a rifle, but because they see it as a means of demonstrating their courage and honor. Even when they get a taste of reality on the battlefield, they don’t simply go running at the horror of it–largely because the male psyche is such that, when grouped together, men would rather face horrors than be seen as cowards. Is this “suffering” or are we men just stupid like that? Well of course it’s both… but the fact is that we still have some measure of “choice” in it. As we do with many of the things we have to go through and/or that we bring upon ourselves. (Nobody forces us to get married and make families and then go out to support them–and many men do end up shirking this duty. And duty, while often insufferable, is again a matter of choice).
Women, however, have no choice in the sufferings outlined here. Are men at the mercy of women? Rarely. But women are always at our mercy, physically or otherwise. And it’s that unfairness that this list is addressing.
86. Blogball - June 10th, 2008 at 10:58 am
This is a very sobering list. Thank you for putting it together rushfan.
87. Kiribub - June 10th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Copperdragon- A. None of those are on par with this list and B. It sounds like you’ve been a victim of more than one. Counseling, perhaps?
88. Muslims Against Sharia - June 10th, 2008 at 11:06 am
The STOP HONORCIDE! campaign was launched on Mother’s Day 2008. The goal of the campaign is to prosecute honorcides to the fullest extent of the law. We want honorcide to be classified as a hate crime and we advocate for every existing hate crime legislation to be amended to include honorcide.
http://www.reformislam.org/honorcide/
89. jesse - June 10th, 2008 at 11:11 am
next time i hear a woman complain about something im going to punch them in the head
90. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 11:19 am
I’m glad to hear of an organization dedicated to stopping honorcides. I almost listed Sharia Law on this list, but it is quite wide-ranging and actually can be brutal for both men and women, as well as children. (stoning, cutting off hands/feet as punishment for theft, etc.)
There will have to be a second list, sadly. Rape is a crime against humanity and often used as a tactic in war. Female infanticide, common in China. Being a lesbian in Iran is punishable by death. I could go on.
91. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 11:22 am
One thing we can do as a nation is allow women protected status and asylum in the US from these countries. Sadly, we can’t save them all. And they couldn’t all escape if they tried.
92. DiscHuker - June 10th, 2008 at 11:29 am
in regards to #2 on the list. my church has been working with a group called “love 146″ who’s mission is to end the child sex slave trade that goes on in many countries.
go here for more info
http://www.love146.org/pages/p.....e_id=21460
you may think that, because this is such an enormous problem, there is nothing that one person can do. this is defeatist, childish thinking. choose one of the atrocities on this list and get involved. demonstrating your disgust by posting on a site where everyone agrees with you is the most that we comfortable, safe, well to do people will usually do. God forgive us of our shameful laziness.
let’s change the pattern of the world where there are enough deplorable things out there to make a list.
93. McSquida - June 10th, 2008 at 11:31 am
copperdragon: If you think men are so hard done by, instead of getting everyone fired about it in this list, why not submit your own list? Mind you, if it has similar gems to the ones you’ve already used - equating male and female genital mutilation?! - it’d never get published, I guess.
On another note - every time I hear about people from the US/Australia/etc. saying ‘The blood is on our hands’, it annoys me. It’s NOT. It’s that sort of cultural imperialism that’s screwing up everything. You can’t just go and change things you don’t think are right. I abhor every one of these practices. If there was a switch that you could hit that would stop these things happening, I would hit it. But it’s that sort of elitist attitude that gets other societies offside.
You cannot just barge into a country to fix something that offends you (even if the offense is sickening, as many of these are). It creates far more problems than it stops; and then all of your war atrocities against women occur, so really, you’re not helping them. Do I have a solution? No, and obviously if I had one, minds far greater than mine would have hit upon the same solution and fixed these problems.
94. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 11:31 am
PT - a little of both, but consider this: would your wife lay down her life in defense of yours? would she be required to by society? if not then you (as a man) are suffering and being oppressed. you’re been reduced to nothing more than a disposable money-making shield.
Randall:
Both are mutilations of the genitals against the will of the child.
Yes, men are “stupid” like that. But we’ve been raised to be that way by a manipulative society that says we must be in the line of fire, or in the fighter jet, or in the coal mine.
If we survive (big IF), when we come home, society says “have you protected your family today? have you helped raise your children?” if not, the woman can claim emotional abuse and society takes your home, money, and children.
She goes out and looks for another man to “take care of her”.
Did he make the cut? nope, but here’s a few million more waiting to get between your legs for the sake of being your shield and your bank.
Or she says “Don’t want to sleep with me? Fine, I’ll just say you did, you pay the court fees, and take the paternity test. if you survive, you’re tainted. if not, you pay support, even if its not yours.”
“or better yet, I’ll just say you raped me. then you can go to jail and still pay fees and support on someone else’s child”.
Atrocious? yes.
Or the military says “you survived? good, get back out there and lead the others…as in get closer to the front.”
If you don’t survive, oh well, we’ve got millions more gullible morons waiting behind you. and we’ll give your wife some money so she can survive until she finds someone else.
Atrocious? yes.
Trapped in a burning building? tough. you stay put while the baby-makers run.
Face it - MEN as a gender get screwed physically, financially and emotionally every day, in every civilized country, in the name of society, for the sake of women.
I would never wish the horrors in today’s list on any woman (or man), but let’s not forget the other side.
95. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 11:34 am
disc ~ thanks for the info. there’s really no need to call people defeatist, childish or lazy. just reading this list is a big step for a lot of people.
96. Mel - June 10th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Just a few observations on copperdragon’s comments:
*false accusations of rape (feign consent when it happens, then cry foul in the morning)
– many women never see their rapist brought to justice
*using pregnancy to trap men financially
– being ABANDONED by men when they become pregnant
*drafted into war at a young or inexperienced age
– in the days when it was mandatory; today both men and women freely choose to enroll in the army
*family court systems designed to favor the mother (alimony, palimony, parental rights)
– women who, despite court orders etc, STILL receive no financial support for their kids; with regards to alimony, many women have made a choice, either by themselves or with their partners, to stay home to provide a loving and supporting home for their kids (i.e. made a sacrifice); it is a very real situation when a woman finds out one day that her husband is leaving her and she must now go back into the workforce. I think she is deserving to half his money when he received a clean house, a cooked meal and well cared-for kids in return.
*death for the sake of science, exploration, politics, war, etc. because women are deemed too fragile and unable to participate
– check the list on Top 10 Scientists Killed or Injured by Their Experiments: http://listverse.com/science/t.....more-9638; you will find a couple women who, not only DIED as a result of their experimentation, but whose sacrifices led to scientific breakthroughs.
*health issues caused by workplace stress of being sole breadwinner
– single mothers that are the sole bread-winners AND care-givers to their kids; even married working mothers experience this to some extent; they come home from work and then have the kids to deal with.
*forced to stay behind in burning buildings and sinking ships
– are you for real?
97. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Kiribub - ah, yes “counseling” - the art of teaching men to be more like women (express your emotions, be more caring, communicate better)
I wonder what its called when you teach women to be more like men? War? Life? Society? Business? Manual Labor? Science? Industry? Exploration?
98. Ash - June 10th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Wow…I suddenly really appreciate living in a country like Ireland, I know how lucky I am.
Some of that stuff is actually sick…how can people be so deluded and horrible? It makes you lose faith in humanity.
99. Kiribub - June 10th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Copperdragon- If that’s how you feel, you really do need some help. Good luck with that.
100. Nelia - June 10th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Just in case anyone is interested, these were on a list of sites my activist friend sends us from time to time -
stophonorkillings.com/index.php
http://www.amnesty.org/en/camp.....inst-women
I don’t mean to minimize amnesty internationals other campaigns. you should check out their whole website! But this this was a women themed list…
http://www.humantrafficking.org/
101. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Mel
-many women are never even raped, just sober in the morning
-”you say you’re rich? of course i’m on the pill”
-enroll? yes. serve equally? no. women fighter pilots anyone? tank commanders? front line infantry? thought not.
-and if the woman leaves the man, she STILL expects the money. Women rarely have to pay (kids, job or not).
-two out of 10? 20% is failure in any test. call me when its 50/50 or better.
-i will give props to any woman who rises to the top of her profession and can still care for their kids. they are finally on par with what is expected of MEN.
-yes. Women drink for free? Men pay for dinner? Open the car door? Valentines? and you want me to stay behind and burn?
102. blaze fielding - June 10th, 2008 at 11:48 am
What they need is another Emmeline Pankhurst or Rosa Parks…
103. Randall - June 10th, 2008 at 11:51 am
copperdragon:
Come now. Now you’re just whining.
Circumcision:
Both are mutilations of the genitals? Hardly. The purposes are usually VERY different. I pointed that out. Ignoring my point doesn’t help your case, it just shows that you have no argument. Boys are circumcised *largely* for reasons of hygiene, though, yes, there are also reasons of religion (but many of these ALSO relate to hygiene). Girls are circumcised as a means of controlling them and reducing, to some extent, their humanity. So get off this one, pal. You ain’t lookin’ good by trying to argue this point.
And against the will of the child? Sure, yes. But knowing what I know, statistically, about the added health benefits of circumcision, and that it is done *relatively* painlessly to me as an infant, when I will forget the trauma in short order–I’d opt for it.
As for your argument about men being at the mercy of a manipulative society–do you forget that WE are the ones who build these societies? Men, historically, have been the ones in charge–not women. Are you saying that women are to blame for men going off to war? Well no one’s arguing that some lunkheaded women have encouraged us to do some from time to time–but come off it. Men go to war for their OWN reasons, not because we feel we have to for the sake of women.
The women cited in this list, however, DO suffer on account of men. Because of men, and at the HANDS of men. So your argument just falls apart there.
As to protecting and providing for families–yes, this is a duty that ALL parents share… and yes, men have borne the lion’s share of this. But you are painting a chimera here. WOMEN bear children–a difficult and miserable experience in some ways (I’m sure most women would say also beautiful and sublime in others). Women have also not just sat back on their ass while men worked–back in the day when such demarcations existed, women managed the home, raised the children–while men went out and made the money and did the protecting and providing. A separate, but largely equal arrangement. You can’t argue, then, that the suffering of men, in this instance, equates with the sort of *uncalled-for* and UNJUST suffering of the women in this list. Get it? So again, your point falls apart.
As for men suffering occasionally at the hands of manipulative women who lie and cheat? Sure, it happens. Happens to women in different ways, also, at the hands of men. Again, we’re even. And in fact, I’d still argue that women have it far worse. Yup, it’s our burden and our curse to try to impress them so we can get laid or find a mate. Sucks, I agree. But sucks to be them, too, copper, because they’re the ones who can get pregnant and are then stuck with it. And if we walk away, they’re truly stuck. So it’s no wonder they’re choosey and sometimes turn manipulative about it. We’re a manipulative and nasty species sometimes. But again—it isn’t something exclusive to ONE sex, and it DOESN’T equate to the things outlined in this list.
The point isn’t that life doesn’t suck for all of us. It does. But women suffer FAR more at the hands of men in rigid, male-dominated societies (in particular) than men suffer because of or on account of women the world over.
104. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Kiribub - thanks. going through torture, er, marriage counseling even as we speak. She makes more than I do (which i applaud her for) and our kids are grown. Guess who’s gonna be paying alimony? Not her. Guess who gets the house? not me. Guess who’s living in a one-bedroom shack? not her.
Wait, “she earned it” you say? “she makes more”
Try that as a man in any court and see what happens.
105. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Randall - just trying to point out both sides.
good luck keeping that glass half full. I’m sure your wife (if you were brave enough to get married) appreciates your money, protection and sacrifice. I’m sure you’re an expert at emotions, communication and feeling.
Can she match you on all of those things? society says she doesn’t have to, and if not, you just have to suck it up. sound oppressive? it sure did to me.
106. Nelia - June 10th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Everytime I go to make a point, I find Randall has already made it better. Except for the idea that men bear the lions share of protecting their children. Unless you live in a situation where wild animals and rival villages will actually attack, women generally have the responsibility of keeping children safe. It is primarily women who opt to stay home and care for the children, though some men do as well. They keep their children safe from modern dangers, everything from teaching them about strangers to keeping the baby away from the draino.
Protection is not always about being on the front lines, it is also about making sure the baby isn’t crawling towards the top of the staircase. A father may be the one with the baseball bat investigating the weird noise downstairs (and let’s face it, my fiance has 10 inches and 50 pounds on me, he is going to do more damage), but a mother deals with daily dangers. If dad is at work, mom is making sure junior doesn’t fall in the pool.
107. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Randall - also, if men are so busy looking after the women, um, who’s looking out for the men? I, for one, am.
108. Nelia - June 10th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
P.S. A childhood friend of my mother’s was killed 2 years ago pushing a neighbor’s child out from in front of a UPS truck. The kid was tiny, so the driver couldn’t see him when he ran out right in front of it. This is why the “protection” thing caught my eye.
Also interesting - more women than men live in poverty in the US.
109. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Nelia - I understand what everyone’s saying. I’m just putting the shoe on the other foot.
In your scenario, when the men come home, they STILL have to protect the kids from danger. does that mean the mom then goes off to work at 5pm? if so, its “poor thing, she has to work AND care for her family”. Just like the man has to.
If your fiance is investigating the noise, armed with a bat, what are you doing? hiding? or are you covering his backside with a knife or gun? he’s protecting you, who’s protecting him?
110. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
nelia - and more men are posted on graves and war memorials
111. Nelia - June 10th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Copper - I am simply pointing out that my fiance has a physical advantage over me, but it is unlikely that someone is going to break into our house. It is much more likely to be some mundane but sadly common danger than a child will run into.
And no, I would not be under the bed upstairs. In the unlikely scenario that this happens, I would expect hubby to be keeping the guy out of the kid’s rooms if possible (as again, he is bigger than I am and more likely to succeed) while I call 911. Once the police were on their way, I would certainly be there to back him up. I can’t imagine not helping to defend the people I love. Unless I had a good weapon, I can’t see being too effective though. If I was stronger, or a better fighter, than my husband I would expect the roles to be reversed. It is simply logic. Not gender inequality.
112. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Copper, What is it that you want? More memorials? More credit? More women to suffer and die so you can feel better about the fact that men also suffer and die? The main point you’re missing is the heroic things real men do is by choice. A real man willingly gives his life for his country. His wife. His children. I for one, would gladly give my life for my daughter. My husband. My country. And I’m a woman, dude.
113. ciunas - June 10th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
A powerful list, chastening to read.
114. Randall - June 10th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
copperdragon:
Ha ha… you’re a bitter little piece of toast, aren’t you, copper?
I HAD a wife, yes. We’re divorced. Neither one of us appreciated the other much, except sexually and in terms of parenting. She’s a good mother, I’m a fantastic father. The failure of the marriage was as much my fault as it was hers. These things happen. Money? Eh. We were both bad with that.
Silly though–you apparently got yourself into a bad situation and now you’re angry towards women as a gender. I know the feeling, trust me. You want my theory/opinion on this? Being a man means sucking it up and looking around you and realizing that you’ve still got it good in oh so many ways. And, yes, if you got cheated by a woman, or bested by her–well, those are the breaks. Ask yourself what the old-time tough guys would do. Not take it out on her–that’s what a boy does, not a man. Those guys would simply walk away and suck it up and do their manly thing. I’m not saying I’m Robert Mitchum or Lee Marvin–far from it, I’m a freakin’ sissy–but man those guys are my role model. And they might have played bitter characters, but they took it and toughed it out and that’s all.
Sucks, and it’s unfair–but the stuff that happens to women *and little girls* on this list has NO equivalency in what you or any other man goes through in the examples you’ve cited. None. They’re criminal, they’re disgusting, they’re repugnant. Far, far worse than getting our noses bloodied in divorce or failed relationships.
115. Nelia - June 10th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
And just to go back a bit - female genital mutilation has no health benefits and prevents most women from experiencing pleasure during sex. It is designed in part to prevent women from cheating (because they can’t enjoy sex, why should they cheat). Circumcision doesn’t prevent a man from enjoying sex. Even if some will argue that the health benefits are bull or that it minimizes pleasure, no parent does it to their child because they believe it will do that. Unlike FGM, where it is a large part of the point.
116. Randall - June 10th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Nelia:
“Everytime I go to make a point, I find Randall has already made it better.”
Hey, no problem. I do the talkin’ and arguin’ around here, so you *don’t have to.* It’s my service to *you,* the customer.
—-
as to men doing the lion’s share of the protecting, etc.—I was speaking *historically.* i.e., that men IN THE PAST had borne the lion’s share of that burden. I thought I said that, but perhaps I didn’t express myself well. (Well no, that’s unlikely–probably you just missed it.
)
117. lightningclash - June 10th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
This is disgusting. What separates the humans from the animals again? When I read about these atrocities I begin to wonder if we’re just fooling ourselves. That we’re just like any other animal in the world, possibly worse…
118. JB - June 10th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
NestorV: some people in Western Civilization support that crimes.
Like in Turkmenistan, where some Western corporations promote a sectarian dictatorship and its book, the Rukhnama.
Sad but true list.
119. Nelia - June 10th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
No, i understood what you meant about the lion’s share. i wasn’t really trying to argue with you (though i probably put it badly) I was simply trying to expand on the point into modern times. Though I would say women historically have died for their children, even if they couldn’t pick up that big heavy sword
120. kiwiboi - June 10th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
The STOP HONORCIDE! campaign was launched on Mother’s Day 2008. The goal of the campaign is to prosecute honorcides to the fullest extent of the law.
Muslims Against Sharia - where are you from that “honor killings” are not already prosecuted to the full extent of the law? After all, murder is murder.
We want honorcide to be classified as a hate crime and we advocate for every existing hate crime legislation to be amended to include honorcide.
What is the significance, from the perspective of your organisation, of having honor killings classified as “hate crimes”?
I’m just curious…
121. Randall - June 10th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
kiwiboi:
I’m no lawyer, but… in the US, a “hate crime” is, unless I’m mistaken, the provenance of the Federal government. Therefore:
Say you have a situation where, oh… bunch of white rednecks lynch a black man. Happened many times. That’s murder. Murder is the provenance, except in special circumstances, of the State government. BUT… the white guys and all the other white guys around them–including the local police—conspire to hide the evidence, etc.—and the killers get off scot-free. Also happened, many times. BUT… it can be established that this was a HATE CRIME (and so it was) and so in steps the Feds, who aren’t going to be party to covering up the crime–and you get a conviction of the killers on this basis. Nope, they didn’t get convicted for murder–but they still go to prison and hopefully whilst there, they get pounded in the ass regularly.
HENCE, with “honorcide,” same thing–if you can’t get the evidence to convict on a MURDER charge (which is also very hard, requiring a more difficult-to-prove level of evidence) you can get them on a HATE CRIME. And off they go to PMITA prison, where justice is served.
122. Crimanon - June 10th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
note to self… Come back to this list.
123. K.Inez - June 10th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Copperdragon, your first couple of comments made pretty good points, in my opinion. Men *have* suffered too, and we should not act as if only women are victims. Not that I even remotely agree with the notion that men have suffered the same amount, but still. I don’t know if you mean to come across that way or not, but the more you comment the more you sound like a woman hater. Do you hate women?
The things you describe do happen, but to make the sweeping decisions you seem to have made is a step backwards.
124. MPW - June 10th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
very informative and well written list rushfan.
one of my professors is a retired police officer and he shared with the class a story in which a young muslim male murdered his high school aged sister because he suspected she was having premarital sex and when he was arrested he could not understand what was wrong with his act. He told police that he was simply fulfilling his duty as the eldest son and by arresting him the cops were disgracing his culture and the officers replied and im paraphrasing here “well, we’re not in your home country we’re in the United States and by killing someone your disgracing our culture.
it is truly sad that other cultures would kill or disown their daughters and wives because they were the victims of rapes. i cant comprehend that.
it’s like they’re a suspect when they were victimized
125. MPW - June 10th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
very informative and well written list rushfan.
one of my professors is a retired police officer and he shared with the class a story in which a young muslim male murdered his high school aged sister because he suspected she was having premarital sex and when he was arrested he could not understand what was wrong with his act. He told police that he was simply fulfilling his duty as the eldest son and by arresting him the cops were disgracing his culture and the officers replied and im paraphrasing here “well, we’re not in your home country we’re in the United States and by killing someone your disgracing our culture.
it is truly sad that other cultures would kill or disown their daughters and wives because they were the victims of rapes. i cant comprehend that.
it’s like they’re a suspect when they were victimized
126. kiwiboi - June 10th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Randall(s) - I asked, in part, because we (in Britain) recently had a case where a Muslim guy had his daughter killed as an “honor killing”. There was no special treatment (nor need for special treatment) in terms of the justice system - it was murder, plain and simple. Found guilty as charged…received a life term.
The “hate crime” aspect also brought to mind the debate we had here (similarly, I think, in your own Supreme Court) weighing up the benefits of such a classification against attendant freedom of expression/belief liberties. Kind of touching on the “thought crimes” debate.
Re your examples, personally I’m not sure that using the “hate crime” designation as a “Plan B” if a prior conviction isn’t forthcoming is a particularly robust framework…but seeing as you made this point 5 times, I’ll continue to mull it over
127. MPW - June 10th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
something isnt quite right mate
128. Mom424 - June 10th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
kiwiboi; It isn’t only when there is a failure at the state level that the Hate crime laws come into effect. Sometimes it is a penalty issue as well, for instance; Swastikas painted on synagogues repeatedly. At the local level they would be prosecuted for vandalism, at the federal level they could go to jail. There are other occasions when it is preferable to prosecute at the federal level, I’m just not entirely sure of them; definitely not my area of expertise.
129. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Nelia - physical size only goes so far. a snake can bring down a human. speed, stealth and strategy go a long way. you could be just as formidable as he, if you wanted to.
rushfan - hell, yes! the heroic things men do are not by choice, they’re by necessity because women can’t or won’t. glad to see your willing and able to share the load. when can you start?
randall - i love women as a gender, and as i said before, i’ll give full respect and credit to any woman who pulls her weight as much as a man. i’m just tired of the “protect me, save me, do things for me, what have you done for me lately” attitude.
Women get. Men give. and most of the rules of society are geared towards women getting more and men giving more.
but getting back on topic - i would not wish the listed atrocities on any woman (or man). i presented my list of atrocities visited on men (as a gender)(post #73). As a man, I should not have to suffer in silence any more than any woman should.
just because atrocities on men are different does not make them lesser.
killed is killed, whether by war or honor.
mutilated is mutilated, whether by acid, knife, bullet or burning.
imprisoned is imprisoned, whether by society or individual.
130. kiwiboi - June 10th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
definitely not my area of expertise.
Mom - mine neither; which is largely why I was interested in hearing the original poster’s (yet to be received) response.
131. MPW - June 10th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
copper you are asking for it:)
can’t say i agree with you but i understand your point…sorta
real heroes don’t committ heroic acts to be honored they just do what is right
132. MPW - June 10th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
commit not committ
133. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
thx MPW and K.Inez - at least someone is hearing my point. you don’t have to agree to understand.
and you’re right - “real” heroes (not movie star heroes like Lee Marvin, Randall!) don’t commit heroic acts to be honored. They won’t even ask. But you can bet they’ll remember if they are or not. And its not even for what’s “right”. the young muslim in the story above was doing what he thought was “right”, based on his culture, his society and his upbringing. is he a hero? 9 out of 10 would say no, but it only matters in his mind.
Randall’s movie heroes were allowed to slap women, treat them like inferiors, sleep with and discard them. Hold a baby? never. Cook? not. Cry? can’t. Great heroes! almost on par with the perpetrators of today’s list.
134. FifthSonata - June 10th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
I had a nice, lovely comment all made up and …. the page wouldn’t display. I get a lot of error messages from this site for some reason.
This does make me appreciate what I have. However, it’s hard to understand that these people view it as a normal behavior and the people who do know it’s horrible feel they’re in the minority and are afraid to speak up. It’s hard to defend yourself when you know you’ll be outnumbered.
However, through education, WE, can collaborate and make an effort to change the practices. Through simple acts such as this - making a list - we can spread knowledge and action. I plan on passing the link to this page all over the web.
I must say - in the comments here, I see a lot of emotional baggage…just for general knowledge here, therapy can really do wonders for people…
I also must say it’s amazing the gender roles people believe in, despite being in a privileged country! The difference is amazing - I grew up in a poor home that didn’t enforce gender roles for the most part. I love saying that my mother served as mom AND dad, protector and all. Despite her small body (5′5″ and 120lbs soaking wet after a Thanksgiving dinner), she managed to break the jaw of her ex-husband after he tried to hit her out of self-defense. He had her cornered and she punched him - this woman broke the jaw of a 6′3″ 220lb man.
Despite the fact men possess an advantage in terms of strength due to genetics, education and strength training can make a woman a fierce match.
Even after reading this list, I still support the study and encouragement of multiculturalism - I wouldn’t be studying ethnomusicology if I didn’t appreciate different cultures. However, they can maintain a sense of self without these wretched practices, or any other practices that are harmful and horrid like these. It’s up to the outsiders and strong people within the culture to stand up and teach them these are horrid practices, and the dedication to stick with the efforts over time.
We CAN help these people - even through small efforts. Pass the link to this list on to your favorite forums or other websites to spread awareness and activism. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1 other website or 10 other websites - it can make a difference.
135. Cyn - June 10th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
FifthSonata -



sorry about that. i was having some issues on site as well. earlier it looked like some other folks were too w/ duplicate postings. so some ‘housework’ was done.
and it does look as though things are back to running smoothly now.
btw -
i find it helpful to ’save’ my comments or write it up in an offsite ‘notepad’ before posting. there are times due to internet being funky, your own ISP acting weird or traffic overload problems onsite..that commenting and/or site access will be problematic. i do apologize for that and hopefully those kinds of issues will be resolved as quickly as possible.
(just a reminder continuing to hit enter will not make a comment appear if there are problems. post once. wait. and see if it resolves.)
136. TicoTuanis - June 10th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Good list
women should be treated better
137. Nelia - June 10th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Fifth, good for your mother! I definitely wasn’t meaning to imply that women couldn’t defend themselves with my example. Hope I didn’t offend.
138. Mom424 - June 10th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Copperdragon; Your attempt to equate your petty grievances with the atrocities on this list is ridiculous. Absolutely none of your experiences, or any of those you listed came about because men are treated as chattel. Sure you may lose your property, but you aren’t treated as property.
You earlier stated that you just wanted us to “not forget the other side”. There is no side on this list, and no argument. All you have done by man-whining is rob this important subject of some of its impact. Foolish fellow.
139. copperdragon - June 10th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
mom424 - spoken like a true priviledged woman. i weep for your husband, brothers, father, and sons; and for the unappreciated sacrifices they must make on your behalf.
140. Spore - June 10th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Please don’t make this debate into feminist terms. Atrocities like this shouldn’t be labeled with other problems. I can see how woman are viewing this like feminists but all these problems are more specific and more brutal than feminist views like being looked at like objects and being called bitch etc. I know there’s domestic abuse in western society today but it’s more lack of education and poverty causing these diabolical acts shown in the list. I believe this more about being humane to any gender than one sex although I do agree women are much more vulnerable and I can never understand, as a man, how they would feel. This is my own opinion and I don’t mean to offend anyone
141. dgsinclair - June 10th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Rushfan:
You should do another list, where you include (as you mentioned)
- female infanticide in china
- forced abortions by the government of china, even to the 9th month
- sex-selection abortions (mostly of females in China, India, and even here in the west)
- female footbinding (almost entirely gone now thanks to Protestant missionaries, but still something recent http://hvattum.net/index.php/2.....t-binding/)
- forced polygamist marriage for very young girls (Islam, Mormon sects)
- forced prostitution / sex trade (esp. in Thailand)
- AIDS among Indian women whose truck-driver husbands frequent prostitutes while on the road
142. XC - June 10th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Copperdragon: you say you just want to make a point of telling the other side, but i found many of your comments sexist and rude.
You can have an opinion, and state it, of course, but that doesn’t mean you have to be rude…
143. dgsinclair - June 10th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
And what about many “beauty” traditions like lip rings, neck rings, and scarification?
http://singadventure.blogspot......e-why.html
144. jfrater - June 10th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Danni Lynn: (#6) that is exactly what I thought when I first read through this list - we think we have problems? I think we don’t!
145. spinks - June 10th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
I won’t even comment on Captain Misogyny, although it does distress me that strawnman attacks, myths and biased personal grievances should emerge in otherwise heartfelt discussions about true gender-based suffering. Men suffer in all sorts of individual ways, sometimes horrifically, sometimes at the hands of individual women or groups of women, but as a sex they have the dominant role in most cultures, and that’s why women are frequently the ‘easy targets’ in societies where justice and human rights are scarce. Don’t go complaining about how men are oppressed because they’re ‘oopsed by moos’ and there aren’t car insurance companies just for men and it’s all POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAAAAD! You don’t know the meaning of suffering, and neither do I, but the people who suffer the atrocities mentioned in this list (and countless more where that came from) know it more than any human being ever should.
I can’t stand by the attitude that we should all be wallowing in Western guilt. What would that achieve and who would it help? Also, unfortunately, there is often very little we can do. I read this list and tomorrow I will carry on my normal, carefree life, and it’s not because I don’t care. I don’t have the money, the resources or the power to do anything BUT care. I can work on behalf of charities and organisations but I can’t help them all and I can’t help all of the people all of the time. What I guess I’m saying is that we shouldn’t be apathetic, but we would go mad we took it on ourselves to be eaten alive by the guilt and pain on behalf of every suffering man, woman and child. It’s not wrong to say ‘This saddens me’ or ‘This angers me’, but to not be out there on the front lines.
146. MPW - June 10th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
i personnally feel that both men and women have difficulties in society some just have it worse.
today a woman with an equal amount of education as a man would make less money for the same amount of work
why is that?
and in America that land of the free we have yet to have a woman as our leader, whereas nations like britain and even some middle eastern countries already have.
i think a woman would do a fine job as president as long as it is not Clinton.
147. kunle - June 10th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Back to the point, the atrocities against women listed above are more or less the tip of the iceberg, in Afica,when a young womAn looses her husband, the general belief of the family is that she killed him with witchcraft, so she is forced to sleep in thesame room with the corpse and she must drink the water used to wash the corpse, if nothing happens to her afterwards,then she is blameless. IMAGINE THAT! can any of you go through taht and still keep her senses?
148. FifthSonata - June 10th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Nelia - You didn’t offend me at all! My mother has taken several self-defense courses so she has knowledge of weak points on the human body, male or female.
Spinks - we can be part of the help and I personally think every bit we do counts for something. I don’t have the money either and I do the same things you do - work for charities and organizations I agree with. That’s why we have them - it may not feel like you’ve done something special after a few phone calls or help with a few programs, but you have.
149. Kiribub - June 10th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Spinks - “Captain Misogyny”
That’s funny stuff!
150. MPW - June 10th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
kunle, crazy
i also heard that in a certain african village when a boy is to become a man his sisters allow males from neighboring villages to beat them with whips and sticks as a sign of respect to their brother and family and the bigger the scars the better.
151. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
dgsinclair ~ There will have to be a second list, thanks for the ideas (141 & 143) I also recently heard on NPR that in Kenya they still burn “witches”.
152. rushfan - June 10th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
MWP ~ The “equal pay for equal work” debate has changed as feminism has evolved. I consider myself a feminist, even though I do not in any way fit the mold of a leftist modern-day feminist. When you factor in things like time off for maternity leave, years taken off the rear young children until they enter school, etc. women are often more of a liability than men to hire. Say a company invests the time and money to hire and train and groom a female employee who then takes a few (well-deserved) years off to be with her kids, the company looses. As a society, we need to find a way to evolve to meet our current needs instead of keeping the status quo. Now that would be real change, Mr Obama.
153. goof_ball - June 10th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
oh my god, that is so horible!
i really hope nothing like this would ever happen to