Top 10 Lost Rules Of Etiquette
Published on November 26, 2008 - 259 Comments
Etiquette used to be the glue that held society together. It enabled people to get on with friends and neighbors without causing offense or harm. Sadly, these days it has mostly gone by the wayside. This list is of 10 of the best rules of etiquette that have now vanished. Perhaps it will inspire some to revive them!
I have made this item 10 because it is more a case of correct dress rather than manners. First off, if your wedding is before 6 in the evening, you should not wear a tuxedo (black tie) or tails (white tie). You should either wear a formal suit or - if you want to be very proper - a morning suit. There is an excellent article here that will explain the rules of wedding dress for men. It is customary for the groom to give a tie to each of the men in the wedding party. If you are wearing a morning suit or a formal suit, give your wedding party ties that are similar but do not match. You want the party to look similar - but not like members of a choir. The photograph above shows you how this can be done to very good effect. It is, of course, Prince Henry and Prince William at their father’s wedding. If you are getting married after 6pm, you can wear a tuxedo or tails as these are evening clothes. Here is a guide for wearing tails.
In days gone by, a gentleman would always open doors for ladies. Whether it be the lady they were driving, or a stranger entering a building, it was always the done thing. This has now almost entirely vanished - and it is not entirely the fault of the men. I have seen women sneer at men for opening a door for them. They seem to be confusing manners with chauvinism. My advice in this case is to smile at the sneering lady and open the door anyway.
In days gone by, whenever a person received a gift, they would write a thank-you as soon as possible. This rule was true even if the giver was a relative. Parents would sit children down after a birthday or Christmas and coach them in their first thank-you notes. It is a shame that gift giving has now become a virtual obligation and the idea of a thank-you note would be scoffed at. If you ignore every other item on this list, at least try to teach your children to write thank you notes - they will have a greater appreciation of gifts they receive.
When people had a wedding or a special occasion party in the past, they would never have considered having a “gift registry”. To do so would be tantamount to asking people for a gift - which is extremely rude even today. It would also have been considered rude to say something like “no gifts” as it implies that gifts are an expected obligation. I can honestly say that I have never received a wedding invitation that didn’t also invite me to purchase a gift at my friend’s favorite shop. People seem to think it is okay as long as they include a few “cheap” gifts to balance out the extraordinary number of incredibly expensive gifts that I can’t even afford for myself! I have seen wedding registries that contain gifts valued in the thousands of dollars. Wedding invitations did not mention gifts - they did not ask for them and they did not include such silly things as “no gifts!” or worse still “donations to [insert charity no one cares about except you] in lieu of gifts”
We seem to have completely lost the concept of correct timing when it comes to parties these days. People leave when they are bored, when they want to go to another party, when they are too drunk, when they are not drunk enough, the excuses are endless. First of all, a party normally has a guest of honor - this is usually the oldest woman present. It was considered extremely rude in the past to leave a party before the guest of honor - and once the guest of honor left, it was a signal to all that they should begin their own preparations to leave. The loss of this etiquette rule is because we have largely thrown away the concept of a guest of honor.
This seemed a fitting item to follow the previous: in the olden days it was rude to arrive late. There was no such thing as being “fashionably late”. Lateness was rudeness - always. In most houses, if you were invited to dinner and turned up 15 minutes late, you would end up eating alone in the kitchen surrounded by the household staff, only to be allowed to join the party when the polite guests (who arrived on time) had finished and were retiring for the evening’s entertainment.
I could write a whole list on the lost etiquette of dinner - but I shall simply abridge it for this list. First of all, people used to dress for dinner - and they would all eat together at the table. Dressing for dinner emphasized the importance of family and healthy food. It is no wonder that now that we scoff food down in front of TV and all eat at different times, that we are becoming fatter as a race. This is one area where I try particularly hard to follow the rules. I don’t dress for dinner, but I sit with my family every night at the dinner table. I strongly recommend it as a good way to build up a good family spirit.
I had to add this item because there is a brilliant and funny quote relating to it. Let’s start with the quote (it is from “Everyday Manners” by Emily Post):
[P]arents must never disagree before the children. It simply can’t be! Nor can there be an appeal to one parent against the other by a child.
“Father told me to jump down the well!”
“Then you must do it, dear,” is the mother’s only possible comment. When the child has “jumped down the well,” she may pull him out promptly, and she may in private tell her husband what she thinks about his issuing such orders and stand her own ground against them; but so long as parents are living under the same roof, that roof must shelter unity of opinion, so far as any witnesses are concerned.
That is how a strong a rule it was! I bet you won’t find any parents today who agree strongly with this one.
This is probably the rule most ignored these days: in the old days, people walking on the street would dress discreetly, talk discreetly, and never do anything which would draw attention to themselves. It was forbidden to mention names of friends as it is indiscreet. The gentleman always walked on the road side of the sidewalk - to protect the lady or ladies from passing traffic (which the two fakes in the photo above appear not to know). People would not look or talk to strangers passing and would never call out to a friend on the other side of the street.
This is another large topic. Let’s give a quick rundown: A gentleman would have never:
1. Borrowed money from a lady
2. Borrowed money from a man without security and the intention to pay it back as quickly as possible
3. Discussed money
4. Discussed his possessions or their cost
5. Name dropped: “When I was dining with Mr Rich…”, “I am great friends with Miss Gottabuck”
On the other hand, he would have assumed the debts of a deceased family member as it was a debt of honor. How far we have come! Money and the pursuit of wealth has become so obvious these days that a whole new term has been coined because of it: conspicuous consumption. There was once a day that we did not try to keep up with the Joneses - because we didn’t know what the Joneses had and no one knew what we had.
Contributor: JFrater
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1. davern - November 27th, 2008 at 1:53 am
The parental unity quote seems a little dated.
2. jck1074 - November 27th, 2008 at 1:55 am
I still open doors for anyone :). Also, i never ask for gifts for anything. Nor do i say no gifts or anything similar. Though i don’t write thank you notes…oh well.
3. astraya - November 27th, 2008 at 1:56 am
I bet that only a tiny portion of society (ie the slightly rich and the wannabees) actually followed most of these. The superrich and the superpoor probably couldn’t care less. Eg for the superpoor, wedding clothes were probably the one set of clothes you owned. For the lower middle, wedding clothes were probably the other set of clothes you owned, which probably belonged to someone else before.
4. lily - November 27th, 2008 at 2:00 am
Somethings I agree with on the list and somethings I dont like talking about money and asking for gifts should be a complete no no but leaving at the right time come nobody really wants to stay at a boring party or grandmama’s and her friends’ version of “rolling down the river” at their home. No you find the nearest exit and run.
5. Sunshine - November 27th, 2008 at 2:00 am
A few of these I would like to see return to modern society. Then there’s others like the leaving a party thing, I disagree completely with that. It’s kind of like the ‘finishing your dinner to not appear rude’ argument. I disagree with that too. I refuse food from people just because I know that I don’t finish meals so well because I’m a small eater, and it’s very frustrating.
6. Ash - November 27th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Hmm I need to show a certain someone #1
Never borrow money from a lady!
Great list
x
7. cheesedrummer - November 27th, 2008 at 2:05 am
wow.
interesting list.
i totally agree with the gifts thing!
8. fazrin - November 27th, 2008 at 2:10 am
gr8 work! gr8 brain! I don’t know such etiquettes b4.
9. Raldan - November 27th, 2008 at 2:15 am
They have indeed been lost, but who is to say we are worse off without these rules of etiquette?
Times change, and with them, etiquette.
10. jajdude - November 27th, 2008 at 2:20 am
Alloy guns on the list, g. These days, if you display classic manners you are not PC and are even called a sexist sometimes. Seems the best way would be to act like Koreans as they have a culture is absolutely devoid of manners and social graces.
11. ligeia - November 27th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Not that I particularly care for the royal family, but the one on the left is Prince Harry (not Henry). I always hold the door open for people (regardless of gender) and if a man does it for me I always smile and say thank you. I always thought that the wedding registry idea was very rude. I haven’t been to many weddings, so I’m not sure what the deal is here, but my mother would buy the gift and I’d but my scribble on the card. And I don’t think I know anyone who has ever written a thank you note. I just don’t think it wa sin our culture ever.
12. jfrater - November 27th, 2008 at 2:41 am
ligeia: In fact, he is Prince Henry of Wales. Let me quote from wikipedia:
Full article here.
13. elartistamadridista - November 27th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Are we supposed to live like in a Jane Austen novel? (maybe not such a bad idea)
14. jfrater - November 27th, 2008 at 2:53 am
ligeia: thank you cards have only recently vanished - they were still in common practice in the 1950s. The ’60s has a lot to answer for!
Sunshine: the good news is that modern etiquette says that you eat until you are satisfied and if that means cleaning your plate - or leaving it partly filled, there is no problem. For a while it was rude not to eat everything, then it became rude to eat everything - now it is not an issue. The only rule about food that matters is that if “seconds” are offered (which is not normally done in a formal setting) and you accept them, you should eat everything - it makes you look piggy to take a larger second helping than you can eat
Quite practical I think.
15. jfrater - November 27th, 2008 at 2:54 am
davern: the quote is from the 1920s, so the English does sound dated. I think parents should absolutely be united - but the example given is incredibly unlikely.
16. ligeia - November 27th, 2008 at 3:27 am
jfrater: ok, fair enough, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of him being referred to as Henry. We (here in Ireland) get far too much British media, all the British tabloids, Sky News, BBC etc. and I’ve never heard him being called Henry. He’s the ‘rebel prince’, headlines such as ‘Harry’s Nazi Scandal’ (he dressed as one for a fancy dress party) and ‘Harry punches paparazzi’ was another. He went mental after some photographer tried to take a picture of him stumbling out of a nightclub.
I was born in the 80s so I couldn’t tell you about the 50s/60s. I’ll ask my mam if she ever wrote any.
17. Paulb - November 27th, 2008 at 3:47 am
Wow, if only all the obnoxious teenagers would follow these etiquettes, its one step to creating a better place.
18. Strubelpeter - November 27th, 2008 at 3:47 am
The absolute number 1 that was not listed was to always, always say please and thank you.
The fact that this is disappearing in the Western world’s parental teachings is painfully obvious in teenagers. Although when a young person or child exhibits such good manners it stands out and brings a smile to my face.
Etiquette and good manners cost nothing (well, maybe the clothes etc.) but can make or break a person later in life. Maybe it’s a result of the American, or Western, attitude of personal freedom, or in other words “who cares what you think”.
The only thing that can bring it back is humility.
19. Beasjt - November 27th, 2008 at 3:50 am
Thanks for rubbing my nose in my old fashionedness.
I feel so mucher older now.
20. Kyran Wray - November 27th, 2008 at 4:03 am
very interesting list although im quite happy most of them arn’t around these days, most of them are unnecessary and rather silly. but some of them i believe should be still around, like opening a door for a lady and the wedding dress codes.
21. Peter - November 27th, 2008 at 4:09 am
Actually it is rude to allow a woman to enter any kind of mechanical door before a gentleman so lift dorrs and revolving door are to be negotiated by men first, In a lot of cases women can be offended when I rush past them in these suituations , so i have to explain to them the correct ettequite which is also rude.
22. dunfire - November 27th, 2008 at 4:10 am
I can tell you from experience, that if you didn’t say yes mame, no mame, yes sir, no sir to adults growing up in the south in the 60’s you got a wood shampoo.
23. warrrreagl - November 27th, 2008 at 4:23 am
Jamie, you will be happy to know that etiquette and manners are also called “The Southern Way.’ We still practice all of those things today, and to transgress one of these items would be called “tacky.”
Or “Yankee.”
24. Nelia - November 27th, 2008 at 4:46 am
Mmm, the wedding registry has been around for over 80 years. These days it is generally considered rude NOT to provide a registry - as it makes it much more difficult for guests to buy gifts. Things not to do - register for only expensive things, include registry info in the invite. One should ask about a registry if one wants to buy from one. This isn’t a lost rule of etiquette but an adjusted rule of etiquette. Don’t believe me? Ask the Posts! (or google them)
Ok, kidding, but I’ve never seen it. As far as I am concerned, everyone should open the door for everyone if they happen to be in close range.
The gift registry is not considered “asking” for gifts, but is instead a list of suggestions. A guest is not required to buy from the registry, look at the registry, or ask where the couple is registered.
As for opening doors, I think this whole “dirty look” thing is a myth perpetrated by chauvinists
25. Kazorek - November 27th, 2008 at 4:53 am
In the United States people usually only tolerate Paris Hilton being late. I guess I don’t know for certain, but it seems even though punctuality has lost its importance in many parts of the world, the US has retained more old-fashioned expectations for timeliness. People are definitely considered very rude if they’re late where I’m from (Michigan). My friends who travel have told me being on time isn’t that important in Europe and I know its not in Mexico, but it is here. Its a pain, everyone thinks I’m a dick - I just get sidetracked.
26. Kazorek - November 27th, 2008 at 5:01 am
I think its good these rules of etiquette are fading. This stuff is so arbitrary. We should just use common courtesy and kindness in general to judge if someone is rude or unconsciousness - you could do all the things on this list and still be a jerk. If your a decent guy you’ll hold the door open for people regardless.
27. Ghidoran - November 27th, 2008 at 5:30 am
Welcome to the 21st century. I admit, some of these rules should be used, but really, asking women for money? What the hell? That’s sexist.
28. MadMonkey - November 27th, 2008 at 5:42 am
I’m not marrying until I find a woman that agrees with me on Parental Unity. Even if it’s never.
I have standards.
29. Black-Yami-Cat - November 27th, 2008 at 5:57 am
I always, always find lateness really impolite, especially when the person doesn’t call and tell you, or apologize for it!
Another one that really bugs me is when people spit in the street. It’s just nasty.
30. romerozombie - November 27th, 2008 at 5:57 am
I blame US television and celebrity culture for the general decline in etiquette.
31. pankhudi - November 27th, 2008 at 5:58 am
Thank you cards are really great idea
And about gifts, I love recieving them but asking for them is a complete no-no….
And yes, men opening the door are always great…a bit of chivalry is always needed, but some men really go so excessive with it that one has to yell. ‘Stop buggin me.’
32. stevenh - November 27th, 2008 at 6:26 am
warrrreagl (24): hahaha
Kazorek (27): ‘This stuff’ is not arbitrary. These, and more, are the rules that enabled and defined what you are calling ‘common curtesy’. They also provided a common ground for diverse cultures to communicate and interact. An area where we can do a bit better today. In addition, generally etiquitte rules are like language rules in that they define the education and status of person. For example, no one with any pride would arrive late, just as no one would confuse “your” and “you’re”.
Jamie: Excellent list. Except for 10 (I didn’t go to many weddings), this is the way I was brought up, and still follow.
There is some discussion on street-side vs. building side. The comment about street-side dangers is correct. However, in some areas (mainly residential) the men walked on the building side - due to the common practice of the tossing of trash (or emptying night buckets) out the window.
Perhaps another ‘lost rule’ is that we often forget is to express gratitude. On this day (especially), lets say ‘thank you’.
33. Muttley - November 27th, 2008 at 6:26 am
I think 9 out of 10 is a pretty good score. I am not known for ‘being on time’ regularly - - - however I tend to observe all the others: I am truly shocked if even relatives start discussing money or asking questions about it of me - and ‘acquaintances’ get VERY short shrift if they try to do the same.
My wife and I get the ‘unity’ thing right most times - but we DO take each other to task in private if we think the other is wrong or has criticised them for a decision / judgement in public.
As for the others - I always try to walk curb-side of my wife, try to maintain discretion on the street (being naturally introverted tends to mean I don’t like drawing attention to myself anyway) and I have ALWAYS held the door for ladies (and men) - I even got a rollicking off a boss when I was in Youth Work for doing so saying I was going to get abused by some rampant feminist for doing so; I just said - ‘my mother would spin in her grave if I didn’t do so - she spent a LOT of time teaching an awkward, shy Asperger the basics of ’social etiquette’ and I wouldn’t want to dissapoint her. ‘.
34. Ducky423 - November 27th, 2008 at 6:43 am
I totally agree with parental unity. My parents were like this and I try my very best to be so with my little girl. And I have always written Thank You notes, even for my little ones gifts, until she can write them herself. Good manners are rarely seen anymore…what a shame.
Great List!!!
35. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 7:02 am
Anita and I still have my Mother’s (unsolicited!) wedding present, ‘Woman’s Own Book of the Home’ (1931), which contains heaps of useful hints and recipes.
There is plenty of contemporary etiquette for the average middle class Brit of the era, mostly spread around under alphabetical headings. I’m afraid they’re rather long, but I thought someone (Jamie?) might be interested or amused by the following two examples (I’ll split them into two posts and at different times):
“TABLE MANNERS
……DO NOT:
1) Break lumps of bread into a plate to soak up surplus gravy or sauce.
Critically examine any dish offered, ask questions, or touch it, then refuse it.
2) Bite or cut the bread or roll served with other courses. Convenient-sized pieces should be broken off as required on the plate, with the left hand.
3) Lay your knife down while eating with the fork, or rest the knife blade and fork prongs on respective sides of the plate with the handles on the table, or lay the knife and fork down crossed on the plate, or hold one in either hand, pointing upwards.
4) Remove and hold spoon, fork, or knife from a plate when sending it for a second helping.
5) Drink when you have any food in your mouth, or with greasy lips that will leave a mark round the rim of the glass, or omit to wipe your lips after drinking.
PERSONAL NOTE: The first part was, and remains, very difficult for me at times, as my salivary glands are not efficient, and I have considerable problems swallowing dry food!
6) Tilt your plate ostentatiously to spoon up the last drop of soup, fruit juice or custard.
PERSONAL NOTE: That was before the WW2, when there was barely enough food to go round!
7) Make any undue clatter on the plate with silver or cutlery, or scrape a plate round with the knife.
9) Push your plate away on finishing a course.
10) Continue stolidly eating your own meal if there are no servants waiting upon those present, but look around to see if you should pass anything to other people.
11) Collect condiments, butter, cakes, biscuits, etc. round your own plate, but after helping yourself put them where they may be reached by others.
PERSONAL NOTE: Almost a decade after that was written, my then 25-year-old aunt was a wartime WAAF home on leave. Her hand flew across the dinner table and snatched the tiny lump of rationed butter. “Nancy!”, warned my Grandmother sternly. “Oh, God, sorry Mum. Forgot I wasn’t in the mess still. It’s the only way you get butter there.”
12) Ask for a second helping of anything at a course lunch or dinner, though at simple family meals of only two or three courses an offer of a second helping of any dish may be accepted.
13) Take spoons or other serving implements on your own plate when trained servants or waiters are removing vegetables or other dishes or plates from the table, or make any attempt to to stack up plates, clear away crumbs or tidy any table appointments. It is incorrect, though perhaps meant kindly.
14) Leave a teaspoon in a cup or pour any any spilt liquid in a saucer back into the cup.
15) Eat with the fingers sticky fancy cakes and pastries, such as those containing jam, cream or custard, when a fork is provided. A whole slice of cake should not be bitten into, but first cut through, so that it may be handled more daintily.
PERSONAL NOTE: On sticky fingers. My mother never tired of recounting about a unique holiday in Italy when she was invited to dine with an Italian count and finger bowls were provided.
16) Let nervousness make you appear awkward if unused to lunching or dining out. Other people will not be so likely to notice any little mistakes you make if you are quietly self-possessed.
ONGOING RECOMMENDATION: Watch like a hawk what others are doing and imitate faithfully!
17) Make voluble apologies or explanations if you use the wrong fork or spill your wine, but pass the mishap off as quietly as possible.
ONGOING RECOMMENDATION. Unless you have the capacity and personality to turn it into a huge joke.
18) Take such a large portion of anything that other guests must go short, or an absurdly small one, but just hekp yourself moderately.”
Homer Simpson, please note Nº 18.
Nothing about licking the plate??? What an oversight!
Read well, folks, and no excuses accepted next time I ask you round. O.K.?
Afterthought 1: Apparently, it’s considered impolite not to belch after a good meal in some Arab countries. We discovered with embarrassment that if you show too much enthusiasm for further helpings of your host’s excellent food in Turkey, the servants go hungry! Apparently again, a food-splattered table is de riguer when eating Chinese, to indicate enjoyment of what has been provided.
Afterthought 2: It must be possible to pick up a deal of information about table behaviour since the earlier part of the last century from films of the different eras. This aspect occasionally played an important part in the plot.
Afterthought 3: That was written under 80 years ago. Our nearest relative, the chimpanzee, with a fractrional DNA difference, has maintained the same *table manners* for hundreds of thousands of years!
36. kiwiboi - November 27th, 2008 at 7:02 am
I agree with Black-Yami-Cat (#30) about spitting in the street; unfortunately, it seems to be the national pastime in the UK (London, at least). Dropping litter in the street is another one (though the lack of public rubbish bins doesn’t help).
One thing that bugs me is annoying people getting in the way on the street when sending texts on their cellphones without paying due regard to those around them; or those who carry on lengthy and loud conversations on their phones on public transport.
Also, I’m another one who thinks that wedding lists are tacky.
Thinking about it, I could probably write a lengthy essay on issues of etiquette/manners that irritate me…
37. Kazorek - November 27th, 2008 at 7:05 am
stevenh: I’m very sorry about the “you’re” mess up, I’ll proof read next time. Hopefully people will understand anyways.
How very courteous of you to point that out for me. Not to mention patronizing me while you state your argument. Your mastery of etiquette has truly made you a gentleman.
38. Emar - November 27th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Sincerity is the most important form of etiquette if I am not mistaken. Some are not even sincere in saying thank you.
39. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Oh, so if I push my number nine and a parentesis I get a smiley face? Or not?
Lets see, Here goes: 9)
40. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Bugger, I can’t cpimt, it was
41. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 7:06 am
I can’t (cpimt) type either!
42. Emar - November 27th, 2008 at 7:11 am
I use to hold doors for some people and there are few times I offered my seat to some people, all I wish to here is a sincere ‘thank you’
43. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 7:17 am
I recall the one that men must always precede women up stairs so as not appear to be looking up skirts. This was a valuable piece of advertised information to nasty little boys, who might otherwise have overlooked the possibility.
44. Sugen - November 27th, 2008 at 7:17 am
for #9, the equality issue has changed everything. Back here in Ghana, I have struggled with women on different occasions.
45. kiwiboi - November 27th, 2008 at 7:26 am
All this talk of etiquette reminds me of a joke one of my colleagues sent me (she lives/works in New York)…
A Russian, Ethiopian, an Arab, and a New Yorker are walking down the street, when a reporter rushes up to them and asks, “Excuse me, can I get your opinion on the meat shortage?”
The Russian responds, “What’s an ‘opinion’?”
The Ethiopian responds, “What’s ‘meat’?”
The Arab responds, “What’s a ’shortage’?”
The New Yorker responds, “What’s ‘excuse me’?”
46. stace - November 27th, 2008 at 7:33 am
My husband and I follow the rule about having a united front when it comes to the children. If he makes a decision that I disagree with, I will discuss it with him privately, and vice versa. The house would descend into chaos if the children thought that they could play us off one another. As a parent trying to do a good job, it just makes sense.
47. The Dude - November 27th, 2008 at 7:36 am
Booo, hiss.
48. Melissa - November 27th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Actually, I think the “street-side/building-side” standard was started because men (being primarily right-handed) wore their swords on the left-hand side, so if escorting a lady, they walked on her left-hand side to a) be able to draw the sword without possibly hitting her and b) so the scabbard of the sword didn’t snag on her dress.
49. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 7:53 am
Sugen, (44),
“for #9, the equality issue has changed everything. Back here in Ghana, I have struggled with women on different occasions.”
Do you mean you try to FORCE them through doors before you? Hahaha!
50. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Melissa, (48),
Anita wears the sword in our household. Ah me, sexual equality.
51. Southerngent - November 27th, 2008 at 8:19 am
These days it seems that when one says “Thank you” the reply is “No problem.” I wish we would return to the far more graceful “You’re welcome!”
52. guy - November 27th, 2008 at 8:20 am
very interesting list and it was entertaining to read.
have a happy Thanksgiving everyone!
53. kiwiboi - November 27th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Melissa (#48) - my understanding about the man always walking adjacent to the road was originally due to people emptying their chamberpots onto the street from overhanging windows above the ground floor in medieval times (if it hit anybody it would be the man, not the woman). Though there is undoubtedly some truth in this, equally likely is the explanation (per the list introduction) that it avoided the woman getting splashed by carriages passing in the road.
Besides, if it was due to the sword being worn on the left (or the right, for that matter) it would require the man to walk on either of the ‘road side’ or the ‘building side’, depending on which direction they were walking on the pavement, whereas the issue at hand prescribes the man walking only on the ‘road side’.
54. psychosurfer - November 27th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Anon, please consider not inviting me for dinner
55. Aaron - November 27th, 2008 at 8:53 am
It’s a real shame that these have gone out of style. I think part of the problem is, and it’s an increasing problem, is the idea that everybody is the most important person in the world. It seems that nobody ever even considers anybody else, like the world centers around them, and everybody in it is simply there as a prop.
56. segue - November 27th, 2008 at 9:05 am
I was raised with these rules as a matter of course, a simple fact of life.
When raising my own children, unfortunately alone from the time they were 4, 5 and 6 1/2, I instilled the same rules of etiquette in them.
Dinner was always a family meal, a sit down affair, with soft music in the background, and actual conversation.
They wrote thank-you notes from the time they could print, about age 3.
Now that they are all adults, I can see the fruits of my labor. They have carried their etiquette with them into adulthood.
My husband, whom I married several years ago, has always opened doors for me, has always acted the complete gentleman. It was his gentlemanly charm, together with his intelligence and razor sharp wit, which first attracted me to him!
I don’t think any of the above rules of etiquette are outdated. I believe we are in dire need of reviving them! The world has become a rather barbaric place, people, even nice people, acting in selfish “me first” manner.
It wouldn’t hurt to have a course in etiquette in every grammar school in the civilized world. (I don’t suppose the uncivilized world has either people or grammar schools)It would make living with others so much nicer.
And while we’re we’re on the subject of etiquette and niceness…in the United States this is Thanksgiving Day, a day set aside for us to reflect and give thanks for our blessings. I want to let all of my dear, dear friends here on LV (you know who you are, the old and the new), that I am thankful to have you in my life. You brighten my days, you bring me joy, laughter, food for thought, and a unity of spirit one usually only gets in the real world.
FOR ALL OF YOU, I AM TRULY THANKFUL!
57. dog - November 27th, 2008 at 9:09 am
When I was little, I wasn’t allowed to play with/wear/use any gifts anyone gave me until my thank you notes were written, and I hated every second of it. Now that I’m older, I can’t imagine getting a gift and not writing a thank you for it - including gifts from my parents. Real notes, too..not emails.
My kids are most certainly writing them.
58. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 9:25 am
psychosurfer, (54),
Done! You’d find me an absent host at my own dinner under those circumstances anyway. Still, as I remarked, at least it doesn’t circumscribe licking one’s plate!
59. rshady - November 27th, 2008 at 9:27 am
I still open doors for women, and slam them hard in the faces of men and boys
I think the people in two are actually walking correctly, from what I was told the men were actually supposed to walk the side away from the road, since people would chuck waste from their windows onto the street below.
60. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Thinking of Nº 10. In these more relaxed days people tend to set their own individual dress styles for events. I see nothing wrong with that at all unless … Unless you are a guest and not forewarned. That is truly bad modern etiquette in my opinion. There is nothing more excruciating than turning up to any social occasion, probably as the invitee of a set you may not know all that well, and finding yourself grossly over- or under-dressed. There is no winner (or loser!) between those two circumstances either. If not given advance information, the tendency is inevitably to go for what you regard as the accepted norm.
61. GTT - November 27th, 2008 at 9:44 am
I dont know if I agree with all of these. On one hand, I love that my fiance always opens doors for me, we have a pact on parental unity for when we have kids (we usually do it now anyway and never fight in public), we are currently writing thank you notes for our wedding gifts, etc.
The only one where I do not necessarily agree with is the wedding registry thing. I live in Peru and it would be considered rude for me not to provide a list. Just as it is comsidered extremely rude to be invited to a wedding and not send a gift. A list is basically a way to help someone chose the gift so they dont have to wander around and around looking for a gift that the couple will like!
62. Kreachure - November 27th, 2008 at 9:49 am
#11: Don’t fart in public.
63. Kreachure - November 27th, 2008 at 9:52 am
But seriously, the dude’s name is Henry, and you call him Prince HARRY??
You Brits are CRAZY!
64. heatherrr. - November 27th, 2008 at 9:52 am
i work as a server in a restaurant, and you would be amazed at how many people can’t even use the word please or thank you when asking for their food, or a refill. and the kids are the worst ! the parents simply let them trash the table because, hey they don’t have to clean it up.
please and thank you’s are the things i miss most :[
and i still write thank you notes :]
and while wedding registries/baby shower registries might be considered rude, to be honest most people want to buy the happy couple/parents gifts, and i think it just makes it easier to make sure you’re not buying a duplicate of something…etc..
65. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Seems like no set duo formation would protect the lady from having the jakes, etc. slung over her from time to time. After all, ground zero would depend on the weight and consistency of the contents; the physical condition, throwing arm strength and aim of the ejector; the design of the chamber pot or whatever container; the overhang and height of the building; the design of the window; the width of the pavement (sidewalk); and not least the civic responsibility or misanthropism of the thrower. Given that combination, one might imagine a full random arc of trajectories from near-vertical to far-flung (if you’ll excuse the pun), and sometimes all points in-between. (Now which of my friends was it who said they wish they had livced 500 years ago?) Protection? Better the umbrella than the sword, methinks.
66. MartinL - November 27th, 2008 at 9:54 am
I think Aaron @ #55 has the gist of the matter, and whoever brought up humility back there. At least in the US, in the 70s we saw the rise of the “Me” Generation, and of totally self-interested yuppies who had no morals and no manners, who were out to change the national motto to “Nothing personal, it’s just business.” (The personal motto of our outgoing president!) Also, in America people think sincerity is terribly important, but they don’t understand a thing about it; they confuse it with bluntness all the time, and bluntness has a very fuzzy common border with serious rudeness here. Manners and etiquette are seen as elitist and “phony,” which are the catch-all basket for just about anything Americans don’t like. I do think (though I wasn’t around then) that a century and more ago, Americans did have a better working sense of manners — but when I was growing up in the Sixties, I was often taught manners by adults who thought humiliating a child in public wasn’t rude at all, but rather an excellent teaching strategy! I am teaching my daughters the basics of good manners, “please”, “thank you,” no elbows on the table, no interrupting — and people are constantly commenting on what polite kids we have!
I totally, TOTALLY agree with people who are disgusted by spitting in the street (or on the floor in malls and schools and other public places); sometimes I get someone leaning sideways and spitting, then giving me the eye as if there were an intentional comment in there somewhere. Then there are the cell phone users, as others have noted. A few years ago, one of the major magazines here did a whole article on cell phone etiquette and the lack thereof, including people yelling loudly into their cell phones in the middle of concerts, during weddings, in expensive restaurants, and so on. (I’ve heard of one guy getting beaten up and his cell stomped for using it at a major concert. Sounds like bad manners answered with worse, but oh well.) People seriously believe they have a right (inscribed in the Bill of, somehow) to use their cells wherever and whenever, especially to share their raucous half of an argument with the boyfriend with a whole store or bus full of people. More than anything, the cell phone is the national bird of the Me Generation.
And now, since my wife (okay, my first wife) often opined that it was rude to get on my soapbox and pontificate at length, I guess I’d better sign off. Excellent list, Jamie. Consider this my thank-you note!
67. Tomo - November 27th, 2008 at 9:59 am
You’re absolutely spot on about gift giving. Not only do people expect gifts, some people keep track of the value of gifts received so that they can reciprocate along the same lines. I find this a very disgusting habit. You do NOT give or receive gifts with the intention of receiprocation, thats just not right.
68. Colinius Romul - November 27th, 2008 at 10:09 am
great list! though i think it’s a bit silly to have everyone walking down the street all morose-like. if i see a friend, i want to say hi!
69. segue - November 27th, 2008 at 10:15 am
66. MartinL:…Manners and etiquette are seen as elitist…
****
My kids and I have been accused of being “elitist’s” since they were first in school, and I had them in Highly Gifted public schools. That, together with good manners, was too much for many people. Smart people with good manners? Nah? Must be those dratted elitist’s! To which we rather proudly answered (when rudely confronted as such!),
“Yes, we are, thank you for noticing.”
70. ninjajim - November 27th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Jfrater: On topic #2, Etiquette from the Victorian era stated that men must walk closest to buildings while women walked closest to the street, so that when people empty their chamber pots out the window it will land on the man and not the woman. This is also why it was a common practice for men to wear top hats and women to carry umbrellas whenever they go out, in order to block themselves from the filth flying everywhere. So the two in that picture are actually doing a pretty decent reenactment. Just thought you should know
71. sidvish - November 27th, 2008 at 10:29 am
hahahahaha good riddance to all of these…….
72. Angharad - November 27th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Discrete: Does not mean what you think it means.
73. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Road etiquette.
Anita just loves England. Where people in cars sign thanks to others for any courtesy, and make sure they are seen, and the receiver also acknowledges the thanks. Where people gracefully let others out onto the main drag, or into a queue by turn from minor side turnings, or at narrowing roadworks. Where on multi-lane roads people on the main drag move into an outer lane if possible when they see another vehicle ahead joining the flow. Where a faster driver or vehicle will slow down in good time and patiently follow a slower one before turning from the line of flow rather than passing, crossing directly in front, and inconveniencing the slower one. How even large lorries give way when oncoming vehicles have the right. Where public transport drivers with the responsibility of passengers behave with the utmost restraint and professionalism. These are clearly not 100% universal, but are common practice, and as a rule draw strong disapproval when not observed. I was bought up in that environment and its unwritten codes. They were either copied or came instinctively to me.
Here in Chile most people drive like jungle animals. Never thank, acknowledge or even look at anyone who does you a favour. They are either proving your innate social superiority and right of way, and your better vehcile, or are so weak-willed as to be beneath contempt. Get there first, get ahead at any cost, no matter how short the distance. The faster and more powerful the vehicle, the better it is for that. This all too frequently consists of someone roaring away from you at a traffic light in a built-up area to shoehorn in front of you a few hundred metres further on, brake violently and turn off down a side-street, causing an equal frenzy of braking from you. Big inter-city buses will sit on your arse as close as they can get without touching and try to bully you into breaking the speed limit for them. Or those same buses and sometimes lorries will plough straight down the middle of the road at you outside a row of stopped vehicles when you have oncoming right of way. I could go on, but you’ve got the picture. Of course, not all Chilean drivers are like that either, and inevitably the women are in general (by by no means entirely) less aggressive. But sadly, in general it’s the polite exceptions which draw the attention, rather than the reverse. It takes an effort to keep up politeness, but pays for the occasional response.
When we visited the country, Chile used to be a land of a few careful and respectful car owners, much like Britain. Now we hardly know a family or friend who hasn’t lost someone in an accident, or doesn’t know someone who’s lost someone.
Road etiquette isn’t simply genteel manners. It preserves lives.
74. warrrreagl - November 27th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Another thing worth noting - I spent 12 years as an elementary school teacher in the Deep South, and Southern children are taught manners and etiquette as a way of life. “Please,” “thank you,” “you’re welcome,” and especially “Sir” and “Ma’am” were required responses from kids in school because it’s what their parents expected.
Yet, whenever kids from outside the Deep South moved in and joined our school, their parents were absolutely incensed and outraged at our demands or manners and etiquette. They were always positively livid about it, as if to say, “How DARE you expect my child to show politeness and respect!?”
I could never understand why good manners were always such a touchy issue with non-Southerners.
75. Nicosia - November 27th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Oh, Jamie… Where were you when I was looking for a husband?
76. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Angharad, (72),
Well spotted!
From ‘The Right Word at the Right Time’:
“discreet, discrete Take care not to confuse the spelling of these two adjectives. Discreet means ’showing prudence, judiciously reserved’, especially in the matter of keeping secrets …
Discrete means ’separate, distinct’ …”
As the expplanation cunningly continues, “… discreet and discrete cannot stand in for each other; they are discrete words with distinct meanings …”
Therefore also discreetly and discretely.
As a biologist I find discrete useful for terms such as discrete organs or discrete habitats. However, the objects being described are often far from discreet! Hahaha.
77. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 11:01 am
warrreagle,
Perhaps the problem is that in the eeyes of some, innate good manners, respect for others and consideration should arise partly and instinctively from within yourself, from your own sensibilities, and partly from observation and compliance with the behaviour of the environment you live in or were brought up in. The problem with inculcating formal superficial politeness is that it can mask a repulsive interior. Much fiction, as books, plays and films, has been built on that supposition. The great wits knew that the best and most pointed put-downs were always cloaked in the most impeccable social politeness. Repulsive social snobs can seldom be faulted for their formal politeness either, and so on. Very often the mere way an apparent politesse is spoken turns it into a horrendous verbal weapon.
I don’t know for sure, but suspect that aspect may have something to do with the question you asked.
78. Mom424 - November 27th, 2008 at 11:15 am
I have excellent manners; I say please and thank you, I open doors, I allow other folks out of the parking lot, I give up my seat on the bus for the elderly, pregnant, or infirm, I don’t swear in public. In fact I engage in no behavior that would cause another to feel uncomfortable. I use ma’am, Miss, and Sir when speaking to strangers. My kids are the same.
Do you actually think that I have ever, in my entire life, been accused of being elitist? Of course not, because that would be bad manners. The purpose of manners is to grease the wheels of civilization; to insure that we don’t offend anyone or make others feel inadequate or unworthy. I would say that if you’re accused of that, you’re not using your manners correctly.
I absolutely love the Emily Post quote about the well. It has been our practice since forever. A united front and all that. In fact in my house, one of the few infractions that might just get you a smack on the rear, is asking one parent and then the other if the first didn’t get you what you wanted. Manipulation by the children is not allowed.
Excellent List. Thank you Jamie.
Happy Thanksgiving to all my American friends!
79. goof_ball - November 27th, 2008 at 11:33 am
good list. my family occationally eats at the dinner table but we do always eat together
80. santiago - November 27th, 2008 at 11:37 am
I was brought up to always say please and thank you and I remember the thank you notes very well!
I like it when men (or anyone) opens a door for me, I think it just displays good manners, not sexism.
I think the wedding gift list is a personal choice, I didn`t think about gifts when I married, I had everything I wanted, and for me my wedding gifts were my family and freinds being there.
For me, it`s just a question of good manners really
81. kiwiboi - November 27th, 2008 at 11:45 am
On topic #2, Etiquette from the Victorian era stated that men must walk closest to buildings while women walked closest to the street, so that when people empty their chamber pots out the window it will land on the man and not the woman.
ninjajim - I think you’ll find the opposite is the case, though your reasoning is correct. Remember, too, that English houses would commonly have the first floor overhang the ground floor (ie. would jut out; eg. Tudor houses).
Here’s a few sources :
“The idea being that a man should go on the outside edge of the pavement so that he protects her from passing cars and splashes from puddles, etc.” [”The Book of Etiquette”, by Lady Laura Troubridge (1926)]
http://www.marts100.com/etiquette.htm
Also :
“Old-fashioned etiquette suggested that, if a gentleman were accompanying a lady, he would position himself between her and the road, to protect her from any spray and so on thrown up by passing cars. Another theory suggests that this is to do with chamber pots and trash being disposed of in the streets (pre-pavement days); compounding that with the enormous time (lace and embroidery) and expense of women’s garments.” [BBC - Some Guidelines of Pavement Etiquette]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1102014
And :
“Always give the wall to females; and if you meet a lady in a narrow street where one of you must step off the pavement into the mud, adopt that alternative yourself.” [The London Journal - 1845]
http://www.storyoflondon.com/m.....mp;thold=0
82. jfrater - November 27th, 2008 at 11:47 am
ninjajim: I think you have fallen for a fallacy - Top Hats became common due to fashion - for that reason and that reason alone. And women had parasols to keep the sun off them - for fashion and to reduce the number of corset induced fainting spells
I have never seen an etiquette book that says a man should not walk on the outside. If you can find me a source I am happy to change my tune though 
Also, remember, going back before the Victorian era, a man walking against the buildings would not be able to easily draw his sword to defend his lady.
83. jfrater - November 27th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Angharad (72): you are correct indeed - the issue is not the word but the spelling - I mean “discreet” not “discrete” - I will correct it now - thanks.
84. jfrater - November 27th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Segue (56) thank you - and Happy Thanksgiving to you and all the American’s on the site!
85. psychosurfer - November 27th, 2008 at 11:56 am
I think there´s an important difference between manners as a consideration for others (which I totally support), and obsolete useless conventionalisms that people follow without thinking just to “belong”, which emphasize their blatant snobism.
A crucial point that has been established here is that we are loosing our capacity and will to share and show empathy.
I have to leave,
Segue, thanks for those beautiful words and thoughts, happy thanksgiving
86. jfrater - November 27th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Anon (43): that is true once but no longer. The rule now is for a gentleman to walk behind a lady up stairs and to walk in front of her when walking down - in order to catch her if she falls (good luck!). Oddly, the opposite is still true of an escalator if I recall correctly. If someone can clarify this I would appreciate it
87. Robert - November 27th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Number 6 does not apply to me since in my mind, I am always the guest of honor.
88. jfrater - November 27th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Anon (35): I enjoyed that immensely - thanks
89. Nikki - November 27th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I never turn up late for things and get really annoyed when people turn up to mine late! That is a rule of etiquette I stand by!
90. Idreno - November 27th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Very interesting list.
I think the idea of asking for gifts at a wedding and having a gift registry is supposed to be more of a practical service to inform individuals of what items the couple *needs* more-so than what they *want* as they begin their life journey.
Some of these rules, however, are only applicable to certain time periods and certain cultural areas. In Southern Italy, for example, dinner at one’s home requires one to dress-down. It’s very much exemplified in a lot of Italian-American culture as well…the men take off their shirts and sit in wife-beaters and the women usually don aprons or “dinner dresses.” Despite coming from a Southern Italian family, my mother’s mother’s side always took that one dressed up for dinner while my grandfather’s family typically dressed down…needless to say it was a cause for friction between the 2 sides and one of the reasons why my grandparents divorced when my mother was a little girl.
Lastly, as a gay man, I laugh because so frequently we (gay men) tend to forget about the “rules” with regards to women…I will hold doors open (esp for people I know), but I wouldn’t dream of opening a car door for someone or worrying about whether a woman got splashed by a passing car down the street. Better her than my Dolce & Gabbana blazer!!
All in all, it would be nice if the greater population of Western culture would follow some of the basic fundamentals of Western etiquette.
91. playyahplay - November 27th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
SWEET HOLY HELL my parents tried to raise me right!
92. enxchanted - November 27th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
I always write thank you notes, especially to family members who are kind enough to continue to send me things. Because at this age, I’m lucky to get a birthday card…
I love it when men open doors for women, it shows good breeding, and I find it extremely rude when people don’t hold open doors for those close behind them.
I actually LIKE family dinners. I genuinely enjoy sitting at the kitchen table with everyone to eat a meal. We do this at home at least once a week. Televisions are not allowed to be on and cell phones are not permitted at the dinner table.
I hate arriving late to anything. People set a time of arrival for a reason… because that’s when they want you to show up! If being late is unavoidable, it’s rude not to call to let whoever you’re meeting know. It drives me crazy when people show up late to appointments. Especially when the person who’s late is the one who set the time!
93. segue - November 27th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I agree with everyone who said they hated arriving late! Being on time is a major source of nervousness for me. I’d rather arrive early and sit in the car until the appointed time, than be late by so much as ten minutes!
When an invitation has a set ending time, I am always ready to walk out the door at that time, too. To do otherwise would be just as rude as arriving late.
94. segue - November 27th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Mom424, that people confuse manners with elitism is hardly my fault. My copping to it is a joke on them.
95. tyler - November 27th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
i like all of these except number two
96. JOHNY! - November 27th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
My friends call me a time-traveler. I practice all of those, which are unknown to them.
I almost feel ashamed of being the only one saying “please” and “thank you” to a McDonald’s waiter.
97. GTT - November 27th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Anon (73)- You should try driving in Lima, Peru. Believe me, I´ve been to Santiago and drivers there could really be regarded as the epitome of politeness by comparison…
98. Natalie - November 27th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
This is a fantastic list, thanks.
99. Kessie - November 27th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
I can assure you that this is a list for the upper-class. My family has hundreds of stories that have been passed down for generations, and I can assure you that none of my ancestors followed most of these rules. We have always been poor, honest, hard-working, and friendly.
That said, I do follow some of the things on this list. I write thank-you notes. I say “please” and “thank you” to pretty much everyone. I smile at people and generally try to be as polite as possible. For me, genuine friendliness and compassion for your fellow man trumps a list of stuffy upper-class rules any day. Just my humble opinion.
100. Brian Moo - November 27th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
I am reminded of Pride and Prejudice from reading this list…
101. Slavoj - November 27th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Very sexist and very conservative. Do you understand, list writer, that most of these “rules” of etiquette bolstered an oppressive and paternalistic society? They are relics of a time when the supposed gentility of the affluent, well-mannered white male helped to justify his domination over the more marginalized gender, classes, and ethnicities.
102. Colin - November 27th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Apart from the one about leaving parties, I follow most of these rules!
103. bulldada - November 27th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
To Slavoj (comment 100)
Do you ever wonder why no one likes you?
104. segue - November 27th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
98. Kessie:…For me, genuine friendliness and compassion for your fellow man trumps a list of stuffy upper-class rules any day.
****
Kessie, if you read the “rules” carefully, you’ll find that most of them are nothing more than basic friendliness and compassion. The Golden Rule.
A few people will read all sorts of rubbish into etiquette, but it’s really just being polite.
Being polite costs nothing but a few moments of time and effort. We can all afford that. It has the added benefit of making the world we live in a nicer place to inhabit.
105. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Slajev, (100),
I’m referring your remark to warrreagle (74). Basically, I consider your comment is a grossly exaggerated and chip-on-the-shoulderish generalisation. The reason? It in no way applies to any listed behaviour here that can be classified as *natural good manners and consideration*. However, I reckon it certainly contains a fair germ of truth, and may be another reason for the violent reaction warrreagle has experienced.
If you believe we can interact socially without being taught, read up about some of the unfortunates who are supposed to have been raised by wild animals. (I’ll except Romulus and Remus. Hahaha.)
106. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
segue,
Having been raised in an extremely snobby neighbourhood, I’m afraid to say I have to agree that there are elements of formal etiquette which are only used to reinforce brittle, dominant classism and have nothing to do with respect and consideration. For sensitive souls such as my Mother, who arrived from a lower stratum armed only with her own fine education, careful speech pattern and pronunciation, and sense of propriety and intelligent good manners, they represented a constant social boobytrap in waiting. I now realise that psychologically it was in a lesser resect something akin to your nuclear experience. But fear of social rather than physical annihilation. Happily it never happened, but I now appreciate the continual subconscious strain, and that itt was the basis of her lifelong nervous problems.
107. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
So I say, In Memoriam:
Too late, Mother dear, but thank Goodness people today don’t have to go through what you did, whatever the losses from earlier times, and however deplorable some of the aspects of modern gadget-dominated egalitarianism.
108. jazjsmom - November 27th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Warreagle,
I agree, I am from the south, Alabama to be exact, and I was raised always to open doors for strangers, to be respectful at all times to my elders, to send thank you notes, also I am 36 now and I still say yes sir or no sir and I always wave a friendly hand and wave as I see someone, and to never judge. Though I have my moments like anyone else, I try to remember to always be respectful of others because I would want to be treated the same way. I’m sure others are taught this way in other places also, but they get caught up in the fast pace, it’s so much slower in the south. Maybe that’s why they find it so different when they move here or come here. Some of these could be from a time of gender-bias, but some of these are just being kind to others. I try not to judge too much when I have not walked in that person’s shoes.
109. Elrob - November 27th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
“I don’t dress for dinner, but I sit with my family every night at the dinner table.”
Hmm…that’s kinda weird. Are the rest of your family naked at the dinner table or just you?
110. damien_karras - November 27th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
The people who upset me the most are the ones who make a big flashy spectacle out of doing something courteous with a big “look at me and how polite I am” attitude. The trick is to do the right thing without much hoopla surrounding your good deeds.
The worst “pat yourself on the back” offender I can think of in this regard is Oprah.
111. alextenn - November 27th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Good. Lord.
This list is chauvinistic, elitist, hurtful, arcane, pretentious, and, overall, a terrible representation of the way that 99 percent of human beings wish to be treated.
I would absolutely hate to be around people who follow most of these rules. There are thousands of reasons that today’s society has digressed and NONE of them are listed here.
You have really shown your colors Jfrater.
112. segue - November 27th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Anon, I can sympathize, or empathize (I clearly know the meaning of both words, but in this case, I can’t decide which is correct!).
My own mum was raised to believe she was the center of the Universe, and could do no wrong. She was also steeped in proper Brit style etiquette, which she passed on to me and my brother….except for the following:
The part I either sympathize or empathize with her about is that my mum would, in other people’s houses, whisper to me, at 8 or 9 (without having direct knowledge of the subject) that she organized her bureau drawers better, and her method of pairing socks was far superior.
She’d tell me that the shape of her toes was better than so-and-so’s, and so was the shape of her legs.
Her being superior to everyone covered everything. I was constantly worried that I couldn’t live up to her expectations (in fact, I couldn’t. As long as I lived at home, the only picture she carried in her wallet was one of my brother, and she never stopped comparing how I lived my social life to how she lived hers).
It finally occurred to me, after years of therapy, that she was the way she was because she had to continually reinforce her self-image.
It did teach me to be a better mother by *NOT* following her example!
113. Panic - November 27th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Wow. This list is kind of… For lack of a better term, bull shit. It’s quite apparent that it took quite a pompous individual to come up with it.
Who makes up these “rules” of society, and what in the name of all that is holy gives them the right? I will agree that there are some obvious societal do’s and don’ts, but beyond the general “don’t be a douche,” I don’t think that anything else applies.
Why do women deserve all this special treatment? I think opening doors for women when they are perfectly capable of doing so themselves is just like saying, “I’ve got a penis, which makes me biologically superior to you, and therefore better at opening this door than you. Please just rest your frail woman arms and do NOT expend any energy at all, for it might tire you, thus distracting you from your only useful role: repopulation.”
Number ten literally makes me angry. I didn’t realize there was a dress code released by Jesus listing specific regulations for all the world’s weddings. “Oh my GOD, that son of a bitch is wearing a BLACK tie before noon? I’LL KILL THAT FATHERLESS BASTARD!”
You know what? I’m going to go beyond saying that specific numbers make me mad and just go ahead and say this whole list makes me mad.
I would hope that parents disagree some. If you marry somebody that always agrees with you, you might want to make sure it’s not a robot.
Discretion on the street? Why? If I want to call attention to a friend on the other side of the street, you had better fucking believe I’m going to. Oh, and I love the bit about not talking or even making eye contact with strangers. That would -kind- of be how you meet new people. And I find that “protecting ladies on the street” and all the while being careful not to look at them or talk to them are conflicting ideals.
The only relevant points you make in this horrid assortment of horrible “rules” are being on time and thank you notes. All of the rest of these is just genuinely stupid. Please shoot yourself in the face… Now.
114. damien_karras - November 27th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
hmmm… now that I think about it asking someone to NOT shoot their face off should of been in the list
115. Panic - November 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
erm, these are*, not is, that was silly of me. =[
116. Tim - November 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
These rules of etiquette may have been great for their times but the fact is that we live in much less formal times. Also our lifestyles are much more different than they were years ago.
117. Skiffo - November 27th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
“Number 6 does not apply to me since in my mind, I am always the guest of honor.”
I agree with this one whole-heartedly, Robert.
118. Aoede - November 27th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Etiquette has always been subjective. As societies change, so do the rules.
Trying to apply old etiquette to modern times may not be particularly useful, but note that people have ALWAYS DONE THIS. It is not new. It does not especially stand out in the universal list of stupid things.
Etiquette, like language, is one of those things that exists by general consensus. Different registers exist for different occasions. Just… chill, people.
119. maximuz04 - November 27th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Panic,
I agree in every way. These are further ways to prevent equality amongst genders. I enjoy a lot of the lists here but the clearly conservative and chivalry driven ones are quite insulting to my ideals.
The common courtesy ones are ok though
120. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
A wonderful little aphorism by, I think Oscar Wilde (who else could it be?) sums up how etiqette exists (or existed) at once as a social badge and a lethal social weapon:
“A gentleman is a person who never deliberately offends.”
Just note that marvellous little word “deliberately”.
Etiquette is the very basis of class security, insecurity, dominance and social pretension. Anyone who has merely dipped a big toe into British literature, filmography or TV comedy and drama has to know that. “Vanity Fair”, Jane Austen, “Upstairs, Downstairs”, “Gosford Park”, “Keeping Up Appearances”, “Angels and Insects”, “To The Manor Born”, “Only Fools and Horses”, “Fawlty Towers”, … well, the best part of Brit comedy is based on that premise.
121. Hawk - November 27th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Gee why don’t we all just live like the exact same perfect flawless person?
122. Jen - November 27th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
“It would also have been considered rude to say something like “no gifts” as it implies that gifts are an expected obligation.”
As a mother of four, I always include “no gifts” on my children’s party invitations and know many other mothers that do as well. This isn’t done out of a belief that gifts are expected but as a way to ensure that no child is forced to skip a friend’s party because they couldn’t afford a gift. I know some families that only allow their children to attend a certain number of birthday parties per year because they can’t afford (or choose not) to buy presents for all of them. This ends up being upsetting for the child unable to attend as well as potentially devastating for the birthday child who can’t understand why one of their friends would refuse to come to their party.
123. GTT - November 27th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Oh dear God… What is with the aggressiveness? How in the world can being polite contribute to the inequality between genders?!? It´s not that I, as a woman, cannot open a door and I KNOW that my fiance doesnt do it because he has a penis and he thinks I might faint from the exertion.
Here´s a novel idea. Instead of thinking of it as a degradation of the female gender, consider the opposite as true. Men will grovel at our feet… WE HAVE ALL THE POWER!
124. Anon - November 27th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Those who have suggested holding doors open for everyone rather than nobody (for fear of insulting women) have my sympathy. I have no problem walking through a door held open by a woman if it’s appropriate to the flow of movement. And I hope I would no more rudely push in front of another man than a woman. But you would be surprised how nasty regular women shoppers can be in supermarket checkout queues trying to sneak in front what they probably regard as a soft *inexperienced male shopper*. That gets from me the verbal treaqtment it deserves!
Graciously declining is another social skill that is sometimes lost in favour of unnecessary outrage. Into my seventh decade, I’m still perfectly capable of hitting the summit of a 2000 m plus mountain and back in day from well below 1000 m. Nevetheless, young people occasionally look with pity on my wizened features in buses and trains, and may be known to offer up their seats. Even young women have done that. Now I might react with indignation as “WTF do think I am, some One Foot in the Graver you insolent young so-and-so.” But I smile gratefully and decline politely. What else?
125. astraya - November 27th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Here’s a thought: the word ‘etiquette’ is French, and the wiki article says that our modern concepts of etiquette generally derive from the court of Louis XVI.
126. ANonymous - November 27th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Some of these rules need to be reinstated, but the rest are just nitpicky. The wedding dress rule is just an outdated custom.
127. alextenn - November 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
GTT:
You just said the following.
“How in the world can being polite contribute to the inequality between genders?!”
and then:
“Instead of thinking of it as a degradation of the female gender, consider the opposite as true. Men will grovel at our feet… WE HAVE ALL THE POWER!”
I think I’ve made my point. Now go find a man to do all of your thinking for you.
128. GTT - November 27th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Alextenn: Wow… Did you not see the smiley face? As in, a light-hearted comment to take the edge off? I guess you must have missed it in your hurry to to be as disagreeable as possible…
129. Davo - November 27th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
the author of this list has traveled forward in time from the late 1800’s, leaving his town of toffeeville!
130. Hiamn - November 27th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I always offer up my seat on the bus, it’s something I’ve been raised to do, and as a young woman in my early 20’s I’d hate to offend an older man, but it’s done in a courteous spirit? I never realised anyone felt indignant because of it, if anything here, in Ireland, it’s considered the only polite thing to do. I’d expect a young fella to offer his up first, and I’d offer more automatically to an older woman, but but it’s what’s always been considered the nice thing to do. And that’s why I do it, to be nice, and as a sign of deference and respect.
131. Hiamn - November 27th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
And just to add a little to this talk on etiquette contributing to gender inequality; I’ve never been expected to be treated the same as a man. Equally, yes, completely, it’s my entitlement, but not the same. We are different beings, with different strengths and weaknesses, and different things to offer to a given situation. If a man wishes, being the more physically (body mass-wise) hardy of the two of us, to undertake to put himself before me in case of an accident, I am ok with that. If he doesn’t, I’m equally ok with it. I don’t expect the behavior, but I do appreciate it when it is extended, because it’s nearly always extended in a manner of respect. I’ve personally never known it to be extended in a subjugating way.
132. Phillies - November 27th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Oh Lord…I was taught most of these from a very early age. Always open doors for people, ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY women. If you don’t open a door for a woman, it’s like slapping them in the face (or so I was taught…). Always walk on the street side to protect a lady. ALWAYS write thank you notes, even if you profusely thanked the gift giver upon receiving the gift. Always stand up whenever a lady sits down/stands up at the dinner table. Never ever EVER begin eating until EVERYONE is seated; don’t even touch the silverware. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS be on time; be early if you have to, but never ever ever be late. Never. The way I was taught, lateness was the 8th deadly sin. I could go on and on and on, but most of the rules concerned treating women with respect (My mother is the only woman in my family of a father and 2 brothers, and she rules us with an iron fist, haha!).
133. bearsstar - November 27th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
This is my fist time commenting~^_^
I liked the list! Although some seem a bit old-fashioned. I definitely will try to have my future children write thank you cards. Its a great way to have more interaction with kids and teach them at the same time.
Great list! Reminds me of the the rules we think we forgot!
134. Anderi - November 27th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Dayum!
I almost suffocated because of how stuffy this list was!
As Ned Flanders once said something along the lines of: “I wish we were still in the good old days! That time that exists only in the minds of conservatives!”
Don’t forget, that with all those “manners” and “etiquette” also came “double standards” and people thinking they were “better” then the next guy…
Give me modern equality any day!
135. Juliet - November 27th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
How I miss these important points of civility and good, old-fashioned respect for others. Having been brought up in the U.K. these things were ingrained into my upbringing and it’s only now, across the pond, that I realize what valuable life lessons they were. There is no substitute for good manners, however fashionable it may be to eschew the old ways for sloppy modernity and the “anything goes” attitude which is depressingly prevalent these days.
136. GTT - November 27th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Hiamn- My thoughts exactly.
137. astraya - November 27th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Number 6 still happens in some parts of Korea. A few months ago my wife and I had a group of colleagues for dinner. Soon after dessert the principal stood up, said pleasantries and headed for the door. Within 5 minutes, everyone was gone.
Koreans are a curious mix of formality and downright rudeness. At every Korean wedding I have been to (except mine), the groom ha