Your View: Should Abortion Be Legal?

1. Justin Anthony Knapp - July 31st, 2008 at 8:49 pm

Abortion takes innocent human life; it’s the ultimate act of murder. So, no.

2. Laura - July 31st, 2008 at 9:07 pm

Yes. It is not possible to take life where no life exists. The clump of cells that is removed in an abortion of any kind is not alive, it could not live outside the body of the woman. For all intents and purposes, it IS the body of the woman. It is also a threat to the health, autonomy, and future of the woman. You cannot remove the woman from the equation and call the fetus “life.” It does not exist without her.

Also, citing the potential grief of, or “mental costs” to the woman is an extremely patronizing and sexist way to view it. It strips the woman of her humanity, her dignity. I am able to make decisions for myself, and I don’t appreciate anyone telling me otherwise. That argument reduces women to dependent beings, unable to make choices for themselves, needed to be protected from the big bad world. It makes women slaves to their biology.

3. Frank - July 31st, 2008 at 9:09 pm

In the society we have - yes. In the society we would want - no.

Abortion should not be legal because it is murder for the reason of not wanting a child. If you don’t want a child then you should not be having unprotected sex, and if you still do then you should have to live with the consequences.

Abortion should be legal because we live in a world where contraceptives are not a hundred percent effective, and the average woman is not big enough to love an innocent child when it was made by a rapist.

In the end I have to say… any persons right to their body is absolute. What I do with my body is of no concern to the next person, or should not be. You can argue as much as you want that a baby is a life - it is made of the womans body, it lives of the womans body, it is part of the woman. Until it has independent thought (which requires the brain to be developed) it is not a person in its own right. Hence, the woman has as much right to perform an abortion in early pregnancy as I have to take worm medication if I happen to get a parasite infection.

So my end statement is this: abortion should be legal because the government should not decide what I do with my body, nor what you do with yours.

4. Justin Anthony Knapp - July 31st, 2008 at 9:13 pm

If the unborn child is a part of your body, then it should have the same DNA as you. Everyone’s existence is dependent on others and the argument that an unborn child can’t live outside the womb is not much different than a four year-old child can’t survive in the wild by himself.

5. Laura - July 31st, 2008 at 9:17 pm

Something I would like to add- the term “pro-abortion” is bandied around frequently. There is no such thing as pro-abortion. I agree with Hillary Clinton that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. Nobody here is advocating the use of abortion as birth control, or arguing that it is a good thing.

It is, however, a fundamental and inalienable right of women- of all human beings- to determine their own lives. I refuse to let the government decide what is best for my body, my life, my future.

6. Danica - July 31st, 2008 at 9:23 pm

Having an abortion is a woman’s unalienable right. However, I agree that abortion is murder, and that it should not be used casually.

7. John G - July 31st, 2008 at 9:23 pm

Absolutely it should be legal.
A fetus lacks what all humans have- a functioning brain. Every living person from a newborn baby to a 120 year old woman has at least one thing in common: what makes us all tick, what separates life from death, the brain.

A fetus is not considered a person, why does a pregnant woman say “I have two kids and one on the way” instead of “I have three kids”? How come when there’s a miscarriage, there isn’t a funeral?

If abortion isn’t legal, then instead of women in doctors offices, you’ll have women in dirty basements with wire coat hangers up their uterus.

“Pro-life is anti-woman” -George Carlin

8. goof_ball - July 31st, 2008 at 9:37 pm

yes it should.
your not killing an innocent person because the fetus doesnt really have feeling. it doesnt know that it wont develop. and think of the women that wouldnt have to go through the pain, mental and physical, of pregnancy and birth just to give it up for adoption since they cant handle a baby. with abortion, that wouldnt happen. and yeah its the consequences of unprotected sex but things happen. and if you dont abort the baby and put it up for adoption, it might not get adopted and will have to grow up in foster care.

9. JLo - July 31st, 2008 at 9:49 pm

No, I believe it is a life. I don’t have the time or energy to provide evidence or reasons for this, but I believe that it is. With all the technology we have today we are able to detect and see so much more about the life inside of a woman, I am still amazed it can be so easy to abort them. Well, not easy, I am sure this is never an easy decision.

Another thing, if I am wrong, and this is not a life, would millions of women suddenly regret having children they really didn’t want? If the other side of the argument is correct, they are responsible for the murders of millions of unborn. Now, of course I realize, back alley abortions have resulted in the loss of many women, but I don’t think current facilities are even close to coat hangers. I think that’s a straw man argument anymore.

For those who think that women don’t grieve or endure incredible loss when losing an unborn child, I would like them to meet some of my friends. Their loss and their pain is very real when they have miscarriages, regardless of the stage of pregnancy.

And I have met and heard from women who have had abortions. And at least from that sampling, there is a very real sense of pain and loss. If it was just a matter of choice, I would think that wouldn’t exist, right?

Even though I am a pro-life, I will not stand on street corners or outside abortion clinics and protest. I will not judge or condemn someone who has had an abortion or plans to. I simply believe abortion is wrong, and if asked by a woman or couple seeking counsel, I will share my beliefs with her.

10. YogiBarrister - July 31st, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Yes, keep abortion safe and legal, in the US at least.

11. Phender_Bender - July 31st, 2008 at 10:16 pm

goof_ball: what’s wrong with foster care? I was in it for years and I’m not a serial killer. Growing up in foster care is a hell of a lot better than not growing up at all. Abortion is not giving the kid a chance. Sure, he may be the next Gacy, but not giving them a chance is ridiculous. Also, saying that you might hate the kid because his father was a rapist is (in my opinion) a bit strange. If I were to father a kid, and the mother was the worst women to ever plague the earth, I would still love the kid to death, anyone who hates their own flesh and blood is (again, in my opinion) sick in the head. The kid may be half rapist, but he’s also half you, and its not like there’s a rapist gene (that I’m aware of).
In others words, no, I don’t think abortion should be legal.
If this argument comes off mean or rambling incoherently I apologize, I was in the hot sun all day (Denver has been ridiculously hot lately!)and I’m just all around mad.

12. Tony S - July 31st, 2008 at 10:21 pm

John G …. your arguments are poor.

“A fetus lacks what all humans have- a functioning brain.”
Wrong. A fetus has a brain, and brain stem, from an early point in the process. And it functions too. It regulates the heart, causes digestive processes to form, etc. If not, then when does it get one … when it is born?

“A fetus is not considered a person, why does a pregnant woman say “I have two kids and one on the way” instead of “I have three kids”?”

Why do we say the sun rises, when we obviously know that it is the earth’s rotation?

“How come when there’s a miscarriage, there isn’t a funeral?”

Stillborn babies (which fail to match your characteristics of being a functioning human being, apparently) are often “funeralized”. And the grief that most women feel after a miscarriage is real, funeral or not.

Your arguments are weak.

13. Ashley - July 31st, 2008 at 10:22 pm

wow. so many people here don’t support abortion!

My answer: Yes, yes, yes! It is ultimately a woman’s right to choose and whether or not you agree with that, you should not infringe upon their rights. I believe that the fetus is just that, not a baby, not a person, until it can sustain itself outside the womb.

14. AlyshiaH - July 31st, 2008 at 10:24 pm

Ok… so i have a weird view on this.. I could never do it. NEVER. other than 4 cases. The baby would never live a normal life; the pregnancy would kill me; it was a product of rape; it was a product of incest. That’s it. I believe that a woman should have a right to choose, but i believe that you should only be allowed one a life time (unless your second has SERIOUS developmental problems and could never live).

15. Niall Marley - July 31st, 2008 at 10:25 pm

Having an intense fascination and reasonably thorough knowledge of neuropsychology and it’s surrounding academic subjects I have utilised the branch of thought I am most accustomed to in which to develop my argument on this particularly controversial topic as my own opinion could not be created based upon the fundamentals of the debate.
With that aside, allow me to outline my two key arguments. Firstly I am pro-abortion being legal (Political framing has become an evidently boring and overused gimmick which, in this context, merely causes unnecessary feelings of guilt and encourages a serious debate to become a competition of opinions) despite the fact, judging by what I understand of the subjects I previously explained to have a notable knowledge of, I believe a fetus to be a living human given time (Initially it is as many ‘pro-lifers’ refer to a ‘blob of cells’ in my opinion) and this is before the current period of time given until abortion is disallowed unless there are specific circumstances regarding threats to the woman’s health. The brain of a fetus grows particularly fast in comparison to many areas of it’s biology and is complete earlier than many other areas also, the spinal cord however is a different matter but I ramble.
By my understanding having a partially functioning central nervous system classifies as life, but yet, I agree this life should be allowed to be terminated without the possibility of legal interference. The underlying assumption of the abortion debate for both sides is that life is an extraordinarily valuable asset, THE most valuable asset one could argue but yet I agree that it can be destroyed if necessary. Soldiers are executed on both sides of a battlefield and become numbers to preserve their ideals. Animals are killed for our food. Abortions can also be made for our convenience. Granted ‘convenience’ is not a particularly astute term to be applied in a debate regarding such unstable and uncertain concepts but it is in my opinion the most fitting word; I do not refer to something being convenient in this context as being analogous to having a shop next door or owning some brand of toilet/chair hybrid but instead as convenient on a far greater level. Convenient in that the person shall not be required to spend approximately 18 years of their life raising a child whom they did not want; for that matter how shall this in-turn affect the life of the child? Yes, many of us would like to believe we would rise to the challenge of raising a child that was unexpected and make the best of it but such a thought is ecologically invalid; you cannot know what such a situation is like unless you have experienced it personally (Though I respect those who have)
My second argument is a very simplistic question of practicality, with abortion being known to the human species now, it shall use it. If there is a sociological, cultural, zoological or generally human pattern that could be confirmed beyond that of any other it would be that if humanity is aware that something is at their disposal be it knowledge, power, items etc they shall wish to use them and given the size of the human population it is overwhelmingly likely that they shall. My basic point here is that if abortion is made illegal people shall continue to do it but in less healthy conditions.
I could also raise the dispute of the population problem being related to abortion but that would be a moot point so I shall disregard the thought.
Before I portray my ending notes I would just like to offer a brief opinion on the protest of legalised abortion. Those who utilise images of aborted fetuses to reinforce their points, you are convincing no one. This topic is rather personal to me (Please don’t allow that to persuade you to not argue against me however, I welcome criticism of my perspectives) due to my closest friend being made to cry at one time and when reflecting on this event. She remains ‘Pro-Choice’ but is simply upset by the images depicted. Thankfully I am far less squeemish and feel unbothered by the images but yet I find it to be a very shallow and cruel fashion to protest in. I welcome the opinions of all people and yes, the images used in the aforementioned protests are generally how the remains of many abortions appear but that form of protest is not only cruel and potentially offensive but also counter-productive to the cause of those performing it as it is astoundingly unlikely that a person shall agree to change their perspective on a very serious topic because a group of people upset them over it.
To conclude, I believe that abortion, beyond a certain point, is the killing of a human but the lives of the humans who are already present in this world and environment should be given priority over those of the unborn.
Forgive me for the length of this text and I appreciate your patience in reading it - Niall

16. punkyfairy - July 31st, 2008 at 10:25 pm

Yes I think it should be legal but I also think that it should be more limited than what it is at the minute. For example if the pregnancy just was an accident then no I don’t think abortion is right but for those that have been raped or that it could possibly affect their mental health or could put the mother physical health under great strain then yes it should be legal. I mean those who are raped and made pregnant they could see the rapist everytime they look at the child and could end up resenting the child for what their father has done. And for those who it could affect there mental or physical health it could also end up killing them to a greater extent due to the fact that the birth may actually end up killing the mother or if it affects their mental ability could cause great strain on their health and they could end up in a psychiatric ward or worse suicidal. So in my opinion if it could cause less damage to the parents yes abortion is right but if its just because they dont want a child or something then they should have used better precautions.

17. Zach - July 31st, 2008 at 10:29 pm

If you want an interesting argument go read freakonomics. It makes a logical conclusion that abortion lowers crime rate. While there could be a few lurking variables there is definitely a correlation

18. jfrater - July 31st, 2008 at 10:41 pm

There are some very interesting comments thus far - thanks everyone - and especially thanks for keeping things civil It further enforces my belief that Listverse has the smartest and most polite citizens on the net!

19. theReal.34 - July 31st, 2008 at 10:42 pm

Without a doubt it should be!, and a little
sidenote- A BABY SH0ULD BE B0TH THE (FATHER!!) AND
THE W0MAN’S DECISI0N!!, it took two 2 make- its the
guys sperm, if we dont agree then it should matter.
im so tired of woman that act as if they created the child
themselves like Mary.

20. Samsara-gx - July 31st, 2008 at 10:42 pm

It shouldn’t be legal. Weather is a bunch of cells or not, it is going to be a child, a human being, and well even if it is a buch of cells, we all know cells are living things, so even if a fetus is just a bunch of cells, it is a whole bunch of living cells :)!! Anyways, I totally agree with the argument about women being able to make their own decisions, of course they can! They shouldn’t be limited in any ways, but then comes RESPONSABILITY, whichs comes with the power of making decisions, so while the argument of letting women decide what they want to do with their bodies is something good, they also have to keep in mind responsability, because an unwanted pregnancy can be prevented, (oh yes it can) failing contraceptives should not be an excuse because people are very different from animals, we don’t follow only our instincts, we have a conscience and an unwanted child can be avoided by not having sex until you are ready to take full responsability over a child in all senses, from the economical to psycological stuff. About the pain a women suffers in the future, well that is very real and there is medical proof of women that suffer the same syptoms that a veteran from war suffers, so there, women do suffer because of an abortion, maybe not right away but they do in the future. Also I have read testimonials of many people that their mothers tried to abort them (but procedures failed), and well they all seem to grateful for being alive but were once confused and hated their mothers. Also men should be held responsible, and not leave the whole responsability to the woman, woman can not reproduce by themselves!, hmmm I hink it all comes to good information, I’ve seen abortions many times and I also saw one through an ultrasound, for my surprise the futus moved like trying to fight for its life when pieces of it where been sucked and removed, even withouth its legs it was still moving around like trying to avoid being sucked, but then a huge clasp thinghy came and crushed its head. He was then extracted completely from the uterus. That made me consider the theory about fetus not being living things…Oh well, I just try to remembder that I can do whatever I want as long as I don’t affect other people with my actions… even if that other people resides inside of me.

21. whatiswrong - July 31st, 2008 at 11:13 pm

You have got to be kidding me? Is this what people who can’t write, come up with? Are you just bored?

Well, remember the old saying, “If you’re bored, you’re boring.”

Smartest Citizens on the net?

22. Tempyra - July 31st, 2008 at 11:15 pm

I think abortion should be legal in certain circumstances - where pregnancy or birth would endanger the life of the mother, where the pregnancy is the result of rape and the mother is not psychologically able to continue with it, where the child would not be able to function alone (dependent on the definition of ‘function’ and applicable in some cases of incest and some congenital disorders), and possibly in cases where cultural conditions would endanger the life of a mother of an illegitimate child.

I don’t think it’s ethical to abort a nearly full-term child in most of those scenarios, not if it’s at the age where children born pre-maturely can survive.

Outside of those circumstances (there may be more that haven’t occurred to me) I don’t think abortion should be allowed. Human potential is too valuable a thing to be discarded.

I do feel quite strongly though, that the option of abortion should not be made inaccessible to people in the circumstances above, that government legislation shouldn’t be black and white. At the same time I find the procedure of abortion quite abhorrent - reading Samsara-gx’s comment above made me feel really ill.

23. Sarah - July 31st, 2008 at 11:16 pm

I say yes, only because I support the woman’s choice to have an abortion. I do think that more education needs to be given on preventing pregnancy, other options besides abortion, etc.

I may support the right to choose, but I’m simply a pro-choicer. I don’t condone abortions and would also inform anyone that comes to me for advice that there are other options.

I also agree that it should be limited. If nothing else, I don’t believe in abortion after the first trimester, hopefully within the first month. I also think that women should discuss with their doctor before going to an abortion clinic, just to make sure that this is the right thing for her to do.

I can’t tell others what to do with the choices they made. I would rather them live up to their responsibilities or opt for abortion, but that’s not my call to make.

24. Sarah - July 31st, 2008 at 11:17 pm

Oh wow, gross mistype: last paragraph, opt for adoption, not abortion

25. Sarah - July 31st, 2008 at 11:24 pm

Oh, and one last thing (sorry for the triple post), about your “mental cost” argument — I know this might be true for some, but I know 4 women that had abortions, and they didn’t suffer emotional trauma. My grandmother is one of them. She will be the first to say that she did the right thing in her mind, and that she wouldn’t go back and change anything.

I completely understand that this is not the case for everyone.

26. Steve - July 31st, 2008 at 11:38 pm

It should be legalized. It should also be government controlled. They should place ridiculous amounts of taxes and fees on it. Do you realize how much revenue this would cause? Not only would this stop 90% of abortions out there by young teenage girls that don’t realize the emotional consequences, but like I said it would provide so much extra cash flowing in. Everyone complains because the economy is faltering due to no one spending money…this is because every other dumb teenage girl is getting pregnant(certain unfortunate circumstances not included naturally) and then getting an abortion. They get pregnant again and they get it aborted. Well, if they can’t afford it, they’ll end up spending the money somewhere else. Like…at a department store buying clothes for the baby. Thus…this boosts the economy. C’mon people, think.

27. Jamie - July 31st, 2008 at 11:45 pm

I feel that abortion is as immoral as crushing a VEGETABLE.
I’m not a big fan of the “We could be aborting wonderful people” argument, because you usually get aborted when you can’t afford a child. Maybe it would me more worth it for a child to be dead than to be raised like crap.
Too many people on this planet anyway.

28. DiscHuker - July 31st, 2008 at 11:48 pm

wow, so many holes in some arguments so far. let me address a couple…

“nobody has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body”…what if that woman is a baby, inside the womb of another woman. is it then o.k. to tell that woman what will happen to her body?

for those of you guys that see your selves as middle of the road types saying it should only be allowed in certain circumstances…who are you to determine the value of a life yet to be lived? what makes your value judgment any greater than anyone else?

“a fetus couldn’t support itself without the mother therefore it isn’t a living being”…try that argument with a 1 year old. kill one of them and see where that gets you with the law.

niall: you are the first person i have ever heard say that you believe that an unborn baby is a living being and women should still have the right to kill it. wow. that’s all i can say about that. wow.

and the old tired argument that women will end up in back alleys with rust coathangers is laughable that anyone uses that in a serious debate. this would happen no more frequently than illegal drug users need do their behavior in a back alley with terrible equipment. the service will be provided by someone who feels they must break the law to do so.

just to sum up…no, it should not be allowed for the following reasons and many more; it is murder (if you don’t believe that life happens at conception, when does it happen?) it is torture, psychologically, on many women (regardless if you think this is demeaning, it is still true in many occasions) it is the quick fix solution to a mistake and those are hardly ever the right decisions, there are many families that are willing to adopt, and other reasons which i will bring to bear later.

29. Hannah - July 31st, 2008 at 11:50 pm

To Laura re:comment #2

As a women who have given birth once, and is currently 17 weeks pregnant with my second child, I do not find Jamie’s comment patronizing or sexist one bit. It is a fact that many women deal with anguish and grief regarding the choice they made to abort their unborn child. Personally I believe there is no “dignity” in making a choice to kill an innocent life. Having emotions to go along with the choices that we make (be it good or bad) and dealing with them appropriately IS what gives us our “humanity”, NOT being tough enough to have an abortion and being unaffected by it.

The excuse that it’s just a “clump of cells” is a tired one. How then at six weeks, did that “clump of cells” in me have a beating heart that was clearly detected on the fetal monitor. Or how at 20 weeks did that “clump of cells” develop enough for me to see during an ultrasound that I was clearly having a hiccuping, thumb-sucking son.

Any woman who is able to go through 9 months of the miracle of pregnancy, and still think abortion is acceptable, is completely irrational. I cannot fathom how someone could do this.

If someone has the guts to stand for abortion- then have the guts to watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjNo_0cW-ek

30. Hannah - July 31st, 2008 at 11:55 pm

Just to be clear I was referencing Jamie Frater’s original comments, not Jamie comment #27.

31. Good Wolf - August 1st, 2008 at 12:10 am

How about an alternate to abortion. There was a professor here in NZ who proposed putting a natural contraceptive in the water supply. and to counter the contraceptive when you want a baby, take the counter-pill.
Outcome: Unwanted births would plummet to almost non existent.

No to abortion.

32. justice - August 1st, 2008 at 12:11 am

Question to the masses, how would Y0U feel if you were aborted, lets take time to think about it…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..0K, you would’nt be able to answer.

33. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 12:18 am

DiscHuker: What about the situation where a mother will die if the pregnancy continues?

And is it worth sacrificing the sanity of a raped woman? Or the life of a woman who will be killed to protect the ‘honour’ of her family?

If you think about humans in terms of resources (I am not saying we should) and disregard the idea of human potential then surely a woman who has survived until adulthood represents more value than an unborn child?

I don’t know the answers to those questions and they’re not intended as a counter to your argument in comment 28, but I would like to know what you think regarding them.

34. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 12:21 am

justice: I wouldn’t exist, so I couldn’t give you an opinion. But we make these judgments on behalf of other beings that can’t give us an opinion when we implement animal cruelty laws and standards, so why can’t we make them on behalf of unborn children?

35. Leo - August 1st, 2008 at 12:30 am

Justin Anthony Knapp, you’d be surprised at exactly how much of your body doesn’t share your DNA;)

Anyway, abortion should be legal up to development of a central nervous system, as no harm is done.

I do, however, oppose the current practice of using abortion as a ‘form of contraception’. Luckily it’s more of a problem in repressed cultures - I live in a country where contraceptives and their use are covered in 6th grade.

As to the ‘cure for AIDS’ argument in original article - you do realize how many fertilized eggs abort spontaneously, do you? Artificial abortion is but a drop in the sea.

36. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 12:33 am

Leo: You make a good point about spontaneous abortion, if I recall correctly, something like 20 - 30% of pregnancies are naturally aborted in the first few weeks and mostly before the mother even realises she is pregnant.

37. romerozombie - August 1st, 2008 at 12:38 am

I’m pro-choice.

38. ohrmets - August 1st, 2008 at 12:49 am

I’m not touching this one with a ten-foot pole

*runs away*

39. Laura - August 1st, 2008 at 1:01 am

Hannah,
I never said that women don’t feel grief and/or regret when having an abortion. It is a difficult decision, and one the no one, including myself, takes (yes, took) lightly.
What I said was that for the courts or the government to outlaw abortion based on the possibility of regret was extremely infantilizing. That argument says, essentially, that because the potential for grief exists, women ought not to be trusted to make that decision. The same reasoning could be applied to women making their own financial decisions- because the could possibly regret spending that money, we should outlaw women from having credit cards. I’m NOT equating credit with abortion, before everyone jumps down my throat, simply pointing out that the patronizing reasoning is the same. In both cases, a male-dominated authority is determining that women are unfit to make their own decisions, because the possibility exists they would regret those decisions. Surely you see how condescending this is.
This, of course, is just one of the arguments anti-choice activists use. There are similarly ineffective ones- to pick one out of a hat, letting a 4-year-old loose in the woods is NOT QUITE equatable to removing a wholly dependent fetus from a womb.

40. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 1:05 am

Laura: What if it were women making this decision in a woman-dominated society? Your argument depends on the existence of a male-dominated society. It’s only condescending because you’re assuming that a man/men is/are making the decision.

41. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 1:07 am

Or “What if it were women making this decision in an EQUAL society”, same reasoning applies.

42. Saffa - August 1st, 2008 at 1:14 am

I am undecided on the issue - which hopefully I am allowed to be.

I would just like to throw something out there regarding Jamie’s comment on aborting potential prodigies that could cure HIV etc…

Looking from the other side, assume a 15-year old girl falls pregnant - abortion is illegal and she is law abiding - so she has the child. Drops out of school to raise the kid and ends up reliant on the state and crummy jobs for her and her child to survive. Had the same girl had the option of abortion, she could have stayed in school, gone to college…and ended up finding the cure to HIV.

Just throwing that out there….

43. Laura - August 1st, 2008 at 1:16 am

Tempyra,
I would object to this reasoning in any society. I don’t think it is fair or legal to remove the right of a competent adult human to make their own health decisions, whatever their gender. Unfortunately, we don’t have the luxury of making decisions in a female-dominated society or even an equal one. Historically speaking, women have been subjugated to men and to their own biology and therefore, as a woman, I find this line of reasoning particularly repugnant.

44. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 1:26 am

Laura: Following that argument:

“I don’t think it is fair or legal to remove the right of a competent adult human to make their own health decisions, whatever their gender.”

Drugs would be legal, no? And people with incurable contagious diseases could screw whoever they wanted right?

45. James - August 1st, 2008 at 1:41 am

To everyone that says no to abortion, I suggest taking a few months to work for a charity in an orphanage or go work with social services. Kids that aren’t aborted before birth are often beaten and neglected by their parents that didn’t want them and then left to fend for themselves, often turning to crime.

I’m not for killing anything, but for me I’d rather see people having abortions than letting the kids suffer a neglected and unloved life.

46. Reaper - August 1st, 2008 at 1:43 am

‘I believe that abortion has become so out of control that it has become a form of contraception.’

Then you need to look up the definition of contraception. Contraception works to prevent pregnancy. Abortion happens when there is a pregnancy, so it’s can’t be called contraception. Abortion is birth control, as it controls birth.

There is a high physical and mental cost involved and many of the young women who have abortions are not always fully aware of these consequences.

LOL! No.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs.....rtion.html

SAFETY OF ABORTION

• The risk of abortion complications is minimal: Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[12]

• Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or birth defect, and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries.[13]

• Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other cancers.[13]

• In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[14]

• The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[15]

• Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients say they would have liked to have had their abortion earlier. Nearly 60% of women who experienced a delay in obtaining an abortion cite the time it took to make arrangements and raise money.[16]

• Teens are more likely than older women to delay having an abortion until after 15 weeks of pregnancy, when the medical risks associated with abortion are significantly higher.[17]

From a philosophical perspective I also wonder whether we would have a cure for AIDS and other diseases now if someone hadn’t aborted the child that was going to ultimately find the cure.

Potential means squat in the abortion debate. The fetus that was aborted could have grown up, and raped and murdered a bus full of children. You might as well say a carrot could have found the cure for AIDS if it wasn’t made into coleslaw.

Considering the woman who have the most abortions are poor minorities, I doubt their kids would be able to get the education needed for them to get to college, let alone anywhere near a research laboratory.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs.....rtion.html

Educate yourself, because clearly you have no understanding of this subject. I’d also like to know why you didn’t put that little warning up on the homosexual question. Or were you already aware of your inaccuracies and didn’t want to get called out on them?

Tony S - Wrong. A fetus has a brain, and brain stem, from an early point in the process. And it functions too. It regulates the heart, causes digestive processes to form, etc. If not, then when does it get one … when it is born?

Educate yourself please. Having a brain does not make you capable of sustaining life on your own. Having a heart beat doesn’t mean anything if the heart isn’t strong enough to pump blood around the body. Having a brain isn’t going to do you much good if you don’t have a cerebral cortex.

theReal.34 - A BABY SH0ULD BE B0TH THE (FATHER!!) AND
THE W0MAN’S DECISI0N!!

When a man can take the fetus from the woman, implant it inside himself, deal with the pain, emotional, and physical effects pf pregnancy and child birth, then he can have an equal say. When a man has sex with a woman, he relinquishes ownership of his sperm. What happens to that sperm is beyond his control. If he chooses to avoid contraception, it’s his own fault. What you’re saying is men should have ownership of a woman’s uterus, just because his sperm impregnated her. By your logic, organ donators should be allowed to dictate what happens to their organs once their in another person.

47. Laura - August 1st, 2008 at 1:45 am

Tempyra,
C’mon, are you missing the point on purpose? The situations are not at all comparable. I don’t believe it’s necessary to get into a semantic debate as to why; I think it’s obvious that I consider an adult and a pre-20-week fetus different things entirely, with very different rights. Therefore, spreading incurable diseases among autonomous adult populations and making health decisions for yourself are very, very different things. To use your language, “people with incurable contagious diseases” who are “screwing who(m)ever they like” are not making personal health decisions, since other autonomous adults are involved against their will.
I also don’t think it’s very useful to consider theoretical societies where men or women are equal, as that is clearly not the society we are living in.

48. Reaper - August 1st, 2008 at 1:50 am

Tempyra - ‘Drugs would be legal, no? And people with incurable contagious diseases could screw whoever they wanted right?’

Drugs would not be legal, as they hurt society. Drugs bring with them crime, death, and aid in the spread of infections diseases. People with incurable, contagious diseases already screw whoever they want, or are you unaware of the statistics of HIV/AIDS infection in the USA?

49. MKO - August 1st, 2008 at 1:56 am

To one of the above poster’s, a baby in the womb does not have the same DNA as the mother, entirely, just as living child does not share identical DNA.
Yes, I support the legality of abortion. I do think at times it has been used casually as birth control, but that in itself is not reason for it to be banned.
Also, the view that a parent does not want to deal with the “consequences” of their actions does not take into account that the child would also have to deal with consequences of which they had no control. Should a child be born for the sake of being born if it is in to a home where it is unwanted by the mother and in that already has a strike against it in succeeding?
While a very personal decision, I feel that it is worse for a child to be born where it does not have the basic want and affection and care of a mother than for it to never be born.
Lastly, legality assures a notion of quality and oversight. Simply making something illegal is not enough to stop the action from occurring. In legality, as least there is a safe option in having it done, rather than some black market “doctor”.
Anyways, I am a guy and think my views on the whole matter should be taken at the fact a decision of such a thing would have far, far less impact on me than female counterpart.
ehh

50. clumsyk - August 1st, 2008 at 2:00 am

If someone doesn’t want to have a baby, the baby is better off not being born.

51. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 2:24 am

Reaper: Drugs hurt people (individuals) too and unborn children, not just ’society’.

“are you unaware of the statistics of HIV/AIDS infection in the USA?” - Yep, probably because I don’t live there.

Laura: I don’t think I was missing the point, I was just applying the logic of your statement to another ‘health’ scenario.

52. MBC - August 1st, 2008 at 2:39 am

No, if they don’t want babies, let them stop having fun!

53. Ranger - August 1st, 2008 at 2:43 am

I absolutely believe abortion should be legal. most “pro-life” people state that we should have no choice on the lives of unborn children, by making abortion legal. Well don’t you think you’re drastically changing the lives of the mothers by not giving them the choice of abortion? the moment the child is BORN, your life changes completely. so why should you be the people to dictate how other peoples lives are lived? does it really harm society for people to have abortions? theoretically, yes. but every moment we have changes the future in some way. so if we abort a baby, maybe it was a ghandi, or aristotle, or something like that. but what if the baby was a hitler, or some evil person like that? we’ll never know. until you can glimpse the future, don’t preach about all the possibilities those lives would have had. because unless its written in stone, thats all they are. hopes.

54. Charmie - August 1st, 2008 at 2:49 am

It should be legal, yes. And I believe it’s entirely the woman’s decision whether or not to have an abortion. After all, it is her body, no one else’s.

I think it depends on the situation the woman is in. They might not have enough money to support or family to help them out, so might be difficult to bring up a child without those kinds of support.

If a woman was raped, then it’s not her fault that she didn’t use contraception to prevent it. She might not even want a baby.

The only thing I disagree about abortion is that it should not be used as a contraceptive. People shouldn’t be so lazy as to think that forgetting to take the pill or where a condom is all right, because there’s ‘always abortion’. Stupid.

My opinion.

55. downhighway61 - August 1st, 2008 at 3:18 am

I have never met anyone who uses abortion as birth control.
I’m willing to bet that most women who have had an abortion
weigh their options quite carefully. I think most places give counseling and a stern talking before a woman has it done, and that the women are fully aware of what they are doing.

I don’t know how anyone can really say if it should or shouldn’t be completely legal or illegal until they are put into a situation where they would have to consider it.

56. PirateXxEsque - August 1st, 2008 at 3:37 am

I’m glad it is legal.
It would be far too much trauma for some women to go through it.

I don’t agree with people using it when they didn’t wear contraception.

I agree with it being used so that under certain circumstances, a child isn’t born.

However, in my saying I think that I’m glad its legal, I also think that just anybody should be allowed to give birth. It really makes me sad seeing so many of the next gen turning into… Well, you only need to see todays media to see what they are turning into.
To be parents should undergo intense training.

57. Drogo - August 1st, 2008 at 4:06 am

I don’t like abortion, I’m basically against it, but I reluctantly say it should be legal. It needs to have restrictions.

(I’m not hitting the “notify me” box, this might become another 1000+ comment thread (haha) )

58. Tee - August 1st, 2008 at 4:39 am

As far as i know “termination of pregnancy” is legal in South Africa (where i am from).

In terms of the Termination of Pregnancy Act, termination can take place up to 12 weeks, voluntarily, after examination by a dr and so forth and so forth. between 13 and 20 weeks a abortion can be performed if it is “necessary” with certain stipulations in the act being looked at very carefully in each this case. After the 20th week of pregnancy a abortion can be performed but only in most serious cases eg: death to either mother or child, incest, rape etc…

what concerns me is that this act includes minors (due to the “new” Age of Magority Act 2007 minors are now under 18 in South Africa).

Minors are “advised” to talk to a parent or guaridan about the abortion and procedure, but it is not necessary and the counsellors do not need permission from parents to perform abortions.

EVERYONE KNOWS… not only does abortion cause serious emotional scars but the abortion causes serious damage to your internal organs as well… womb etc. There could be serious complications due to the equipment they use to remove the fetus, as sometimes not everything is removed and causes hectic infections and sometimes leading to having the womb removed or leaving some women unable to have children again.

There are 2 methods generally used. The “suction” method usually cases this… they use a long metal rob, stick it up in there and stuck the fetus out like a vaccum. (so nasty) The other method (i’m not sure what it is called)they give you 2 pills… filled with hormones and these usually make you seriously ill, vomitting, diaorrea, violent cramps etc… the first pill is taken in front of the dr and then second pill is taken 2 days later at the dr office and the strong dose of hormones expel the fetus. Also a rather disgusting process… as young girls going through this usually dont know what to do with the remains of their “baby” as it usually is just a mass of cells or half formed and the fetus can expel itself anytime, anywhere. so you cant be sure how to prepare yourself… talk bout emtional scarring hey!!

in terms of the law… a legal subject only comes into being at birth and the requirements for a legal subject is that there must be complete seperation from the mother and it must be able to breath and live independently from the mother (there is no need for the imbelical cord to be cut)

If you are not a legal subject you are not the holder of rights or the bearer of duties. THEREFORE… you cannot state claim to anything. There are various methods which can be put in place such as nascitus fiction where the fetus is presumed alive but this is only in legal disputes. A fetus cannot be a legal subject as it cannot live independetly from the mother.

Then we have the conflicting rights in the Consititution… THE RIGHT TO LIFE… and… THE RIGHT TO CHOICE OF REPRODUCTION.
When it comes to abortion these 2 rights are in serious conflict. As most people believe that the right to life should have preferrance.

The things is… we all have the right to choice of reproduction, the manner in which we choose to repoduce, the amount of children we choose to have etc… so when it comes down to it women can do whatever they please with thier bodies… AS LEGALLY STATED.

I, personally, think that abortion should be leagl internationally but should be regulated very strictly!!!!! i think that health officials are to “sloppy” when it comes to abortion (and many other things). There should be a serious amount of counselling offered before and after, a full medical examination and a follow up examination. Abortion should also only be used in serious cases such as rape, incest, could cause death etc. IT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS A CONTRACEPTION… THAT IS WRONG ON SO MANY LEVELS… cause as i have stated previously the effect it has on your body could be disastrous and fatal.

just for the record i am studying law and practice as a paralegal so i’m always exposed to things like this. its sad how people misuse abortion.

I hope i have given you guys some food for thought…

Tee

59. Ben - August 1st, 2008 at 4:43 am

No,

Unborn children have been detected with brain waves. They can feel, eat, and move around. Just because they are inside a womb, they are not alive?

When you look at it this way, it doesn’t matter if the child is wanted or not; it’s not for you to decide. There will still be societal problems with legalized abortion. The whole idea of the Aryan race was to control birth; how did that little idea benefit society?

Looking at a toddler or baby playing should be a joy, not a liability.

All I know is if I was growing up in my mother’s womb, and there was any doubt by my parents to keep going with me, I would remind them everyday how “alive” I am now, no thanks to them.

60. carpe_noctem - August 1st, 2008 at 5:28 am

It really depends on when you consider life to have begun. Some people think that life begins at conception, some think that life begins at birth. Obviously, no one among us would dream of harming a newborn baby, which is probably the strongest reason we have for refusing to abort babies past a certain time. The human conscience has a problem with aborting babies after 3 or 4 months because they start to look human by that stage.

Theoretically, for months, human babies are just a little bundle of cells, going about doing their thing. You could argue that of course it’s alive, it moves every now and then, creates problems (I made my mum sick almost every morning for 8 out of the 9 months) but you could argue that viruses and bacteria that chill out all over us are equally living. Although the human body is comprised of about 100 trillion cells, only 10 trillion of which are ours. Considering most people have little problem with destroying bacteria (which makes up 90% of what we are), why should a small bundle of cells be any different?

In my opinion, it should be legal. If you consider the people most likely to get an abortion, it’s almost exclusively people who are unwilling, or unable to support a child, often because of age, and there are understandable moral issues for some people with adoption.

And as for the argument that destroying a potential life is as punishable a crime as destroying a real life? By that logic, every time a man masturbates, he should be punished for murder, for destroying lives (billions in fact) that could potentially exist, and I guarantee you, at least 50% of the population would vote against making that particular pasttime illegal.

61. blaze fielding - August 1st, 2008 at 5:30 am

yes, & i wont go into detail because i have really harsh views on abortion, birth and families, and in the past ive offended too many people. Plus i find it hard to explain what i beleieve, it would just spiral out of control if i wrote everything down, and it even confuses me, so ill just leave it at a simple ‘yes’.

62. carpe_noctem - August 1st, 2008 at 5:32 am

Btw, just my opinion, I’m happy to debate, but don’t get all angry at me if you disagree!

63. krysten - August 1st, 2008 at 5:36 am

carpe_noctem: I see where you’re coming from, but bacteria don’t have beating hearts. What happens when your heart stops? You die. The same thing happens to a fetus. If its heart stopped beating it would die. And to die, it would have to be living in the first place.
“for destroying lives that could potentially exist”, yes, but a fetus is already existing, it will not potentially exist, it already is.

64. BillBell - August 1st, 2008 at 5:39 am

Why would you want the State to decide anything for you?

65. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 5:40 am

carpe_noctem: Regarding your last paragraph - those billions of lives are only 1/2 a life each and one sperm + one sperm does not = one zygote. Same with the un-used ovum that are reabsorbed into a woman’s body every month. I don’t think it’s comparable.

66. ringtailroxy - August 1st, 2008 at 5:41 am

wow. when I was younger, there seemed to be a more broad acceptance of abortion rights. now, not so much.

with government programs practically encouraging unwed, immature, uneducated women to have children, by offering various forms of monetary aide and free medical care, it appears to me to be a self-replicating problem.

I am sick of hearing the saying “it’s not the baby’s fault” and “you have to take responsibility for your actions”
as if society views children as the ‘punishment’ one must accept for a misbegotten night of reckless passion, or a broken condom, or a forgotten pill. I say bullshit.

since when is an unborn, unproductive, potential life more important than an existing one? Abortion is never something a woman chooses flippantly… it is often an agonizing time, unimaginable by those who have never gone through it first-hand. It is nights of fear and self-condemnation, tears and self-loathing… and it may even linger for some time.

Abortion should be freely available during the first trimester. by the time a woman is past her third month, if you don’t know your body well enough to realize you are pregnant, or are denying it to yourself, or worse, waiting for something tragic to happen (since quite a few pregnancies end in miscarriage), you are far to immature and irresponsible to become a parent.

Abortion, and the caring physicians who provide the service in a sanitary, compassionate environment, one that embraces a woman during a difficult time in her life, are truly a gift to society. Long gone are the back-alley abortion clinics, and the primitive forms of pregnancy termination, such as overdosing on penny royal extract, drug overdoses, and harming one’s physical body to cause spontaneous abortion.

It fascinates me that one of the most highly technologically advanced nations in the world (U.S. of A.) also has the world’s highest rate of teen pregnancy. it’s almost as if these children think the only thing they can actually accomplish in life is having a baby.

I went to a rural high school in South Carolina where a full 1/2 of the female student body either where pregnant, had a child, had an abortion, or had a miscarriage. Sex ed wasn’t even offered until senior year, and by then, well, it was too late for some girls.

And as such, the ignorance perpetrated.

Do not condemn the woman who has had an abortion-millions have and they are not ‘bad’ or ‘evil’ or ’selfish’ people. They are often successful women who eventually have children at an appropriate time in their lives, where they can provide and the emotional, physical, and financial means to raise a child. just because a woman (or girl, as the case may be)gets pregnant does not automatically give her the ability to be a parent… it doesn’t take a high school graduate to get pregnant… but it does take more than an 8th grade education to raise a child to be a productive member of society, and not to become just another clog in the machine living an unsatisfying life.

women have been aborting their undesired children since the dawn of mankind… and since a woman didn’t show her pregnancy until after her third month, it wasn’t even considered that a woman was actually pregnant until she felt her baby moving… it wasn’t until 1588 when Pope Sixtus banned abortions that it all became a social issue…and even then, there is little proof that there was an accept consensus that life started at conception…

here’s my real name, folks. that’s how strongly I feel about this issue.

Roxanne

67. carpe_noctem - August 1st, 2008 at 5:42 am

Krysten: See, that’s pretty much my point, you can view the fetus as already existant (which, with a beating heart, evidence of brain function and reaction to external stimulus, is not at all an unfair perspective) or you can view the fetus as non-living until the moment of birth. It’s really a matter of opinion as to whether you consider it to be alive pre or post-birth. But I do see what you’re saying.

68. rushfan - August 1st, 2008 at 5:46 am

If a pregnant woman is murdered, are two people killed? How can we try this case as a double murder if that very same woman could have killed her own baby legally? I don’t see a way to justify this double standard?
This issue has become so politicized here in America that Democrats can’t even vote for a late term abortion ban for fear of angering their militant pro-choice base. Do you realize there’s controversy over whether to let a baby that lives thru an abortion be allowed to live? Lives thru an abortion. Think about that. “The human conscience has a problem with aborting babies after 3 or 4 months because they start to look human by that stage.” I quote from a comment above. Unfortunately, that is not true. Women are willing to abort babies well after the stage of viability. I don’t think they should be allowed to do this.
As far as I’m concerned, the “my body, my choice” arguement better applies to legalizing drugs rather than killing unborn babies. At any stage of pregnancy. For any reason. And did you know that the “life of the mother” clause includes the mother’s mental state?
Some people want abortion on demand, no questions asked. Other people want abortion to be “safe, legal, and rare.” Still others want no abortions at all, perhaps except in literal life or death situations. I just wish society would address the issue of unwanted pregnancy at the root, which is, in my opinion, lack of birth control information and a sense of personal responsibility when it comes to women. Last time I checked, only women get pregnant. Women are ultimatley responsible for whether they get pregnant or not, whether they use protection or not. Obviously, there are accidents, and there are rapes. If that’s all we were having to address, this would be a very different debate. But we all know, those cases are not the majority of abortions.

69. Tempyra - August 1st, 2008 at 5:58 am

If a pregnant woman is murdered, are two people killed? How can we try this case as a double murder if that very same woman could have killed her own baby legally? I don’t see a way to justify this double standard?

That’s a good point. If abortion in is legal at any stage of pregnancy - what is desired by the people wanting legal abortions becomes a sort of curse for those who are the mothers of wanted children. How would you feel if the mother of your unborn child was murdered but the killer only received one murder sentence? Because the defence would be able to argue in court that if abortion is legal at that stage of pregnancy then your child has no rights.

70. Matt Howard - August 1st, 2008 at 6:00 am

Definately yes. I am not going to address the issue of religion, as I think it had no place in this debate. I will say that unless a fully developed human being has consciousness, cognitive ability and self awareness, then a ‘life’ does not exist, in my personal opinion. I do not believe that a 3rd trimester fetus can be considered a human being in the legal sense, and I also reject the argument of potential life. I think that saying that the abortion of a fetus is taking a potential life is like saying that men cannot masturbate due to all the potential lives wasted in that act.

I think that the reason abortion should be legal is that there is no definitive way of addressing and/or proving right or wrong all the opinions that people have on this matter. Some people believe life begins at conception, some don’t. Some people think it is murder some don’t. Some people believe that abortion destroys people mental health, some consider that condesending and patronising. However, if you criminalise abortion, you effectivaly take away the rights of a considerable percentage of people who have the pro-choice opinion. If abortion is deemed legal, then the people who think that it is wrong can clearly choose never to have one. The only way to preserve the rights of all people (excluding whether or not you personally believe that a fetus is a life) is to legalise abortion.

71. dastex - August 1st, 2008 at 6:16 am

Tough question to ask but sure to garner lively debate.
Abortion is currently legal in all states but the stage at which a pregnancy can be terminated varies.
I think abortion should continue to be legal up until the point that the fetus can viably support itself outside of the womb. If an entity can support itself and you perform a procedure to kill it then its murder. If the entity cannot support itself it has to be considered a part of the mother and she can therefore do what she wills with her body.

72. rushfan - August 1st, 2008 at 6:26 am

Considering the fact that due to the miracles of modern medicine babies are being safely delivered and surviving at earlier and earlier stages of gestation, the age of viability is currently evolving with each successful delivery of every premie baby.

73. longball - August 1st, 2008 at 6:32 am

Only if giving birth is going to kill the mother or baby. Other than that, no. You chose to have sex, you reap the consequences. And rape is not an excuse, the baby did nothing wrong. Show me a woman who wouldn’t love and take care of her child she grew inside her body for 9 months! If you can, she has some serious mental issues. Its not the baby’s fault you are irresponsible and incompetent. Adoption is always a better alternative.

And how the f@#K can you justify killing it just becaus eit can’t support itsself? Hell, why not off the old geezers on meds to live and machines and shit. kill every one that has dyalisis for their kidneys and all the retards ( pardon the laymans terminology, mentaly challenged if you will) that can’t take care of themselves. And cripples and anyone with a communicable disease.

You can’t say yes to part and no to part. Its all or none.

74. Aaron - August 1st, 2008 at 6:33 am

It’s difficult to say, I truly value above almost all, our free will and the ability to make decisions for ourselves, without the government deciding for us. obviously in the case of something like murder, it is both reasonable and acceptable for the government to intervene. I believe that telling a woman that the government tells her she can’t have an abortion is wrong because I don’t believe that the government has any right to tell a woman, or anyone for that matter what to do with her body. There are cases such as rape where to have the baby would be to put her through a horrible situation.

Having said all that, I don’t believe any woman should choose to have an abortion. I feel there are too many better ways of making sure you don’t have to raise a child then killing it. Many hospitals will take newborn babies, there are adoption agencies, etc.

So in short, I am strongly against the idea of abortion when other alternatives exist, as they do, but I am also against the government deciding for a woman and their people what is morally right in such a controversial debate. Yes, I think it should be legal, but I don’t think anybody should ever do it.

75. longball - August 1st, 2008 at 6:34 am

or on the other hand, should abortion become legal, i think the age limit should be extended to 18 years. Until you are an adult and can be held responsible then you should be able to be aborted. It every parents right…isn’t that the argument?

76. Elsa - August 1st, 2008 at 6:42 am

Hello, My name is Elsa and I had an abortion.

I am an educated person of reasonable intellect.I am not promiscuous. I was on contraception. I was in a long term relationship. I had counciling before coming to a final decision.
And I thank the heavens that I didn’t have to let the Government decide what choices I had. One generation before me did not have that luxury.

I’ve noticed an extreme amount of stereotyping in people’s thoughts about this subject. And you are welcome to your opinion. Just don’t force your choices on me. You have yours, I have mine. I think that’s the hallmark of a free society.

I was smart enough to know that I was not ready emotionally or financially to provide a flourishing environment for a child at that point in my life.

I am nearly 50, was a virgin until after high school, have had a histroy of long term relationships and have only had 5 partners my entire life. The other women who were with me that day did not fit a single stereotype so far presented. I met women who already had the family they were capable of caring for and failed contraception (no birth control is 100% effective)also led them to make a hard decision. These were women who had followed the rules of society and were still faced with an agonizing choice. As I said I met these women during counciling. I heard the regrets and sadness that they had to work through to come to this decision.
To assume that it’s mainly young teens with no regards for the outcome of heated sex in the back of a car is burying your head in the sand, in my opinion.

This announcement may change some’s opinion of me, but I am ok with that. I know the hours I spent mulling over the different options I had, and I am at complete peace with the choice I made for ME. I also know it would not only have changed my life in a non positive way, but it would have also impacted on the future of the 3 wonderful children I did have a few years later when I was capcable of providing a proper and loving environment without having to rely on the government to foot the bill.

I remember my mother speaking in hushed tones about friends that were lost to botched back alley abortions (these are not a myth) or women who were rendered sterile after having their uterus destroyed, or infection set in ,scaring otherwise healthy tissue, that is if they were lucky to survive. These women were also not teenagers. They were family women who had already had their children, had little or no birth control options and were still expected to have sexual relations with their husbands. The stimgma they faced to try and take care of the children they already had if the abortion was found out was terrible.

Safe controlled abortions should be legal. For those that want to use extreme examples to back up their arguments, continue to do so. You may vote for whatever candidate you choose to have your voice heard at the law making level. I will do the same.

Hello, My name is Elsa, and I had an abortion. I am not ashamed, and know I made the right choice for me and my future family.

77. gilles - August 1st, 2008 at 6:43 am

i am appalled by this site, that i used to love. Anti-abortion and pro-death penalty? I’m not coming back. You guys are extremists. And you hid it well, at first. Don’t insult my intelligence, cause I have one. Adios and f*** o**.

78. carpe_noctem - August 1st, 2008 at 6:45 am

Gilles, you say something like that, and expect us to care that you’re leaving us?

79. carpe_noctem - August 1st, 2008 at 6:47 am

And Elsa, you’re right, that did change my opinion of you, but in no way for the worse. Thank you for sharing.

80. jfrater - August 1st, 2008 at 6:47 am

gilles: so you are pro-baby-murder and anti-murderer-killing? Makes sense. Bye!

81. ohrmets - August 1st, 2008 at 6:51 am

Uh, Gilles, the differences of opinion here seem to be about even, which is I think a fair reflection of (American, at least) society. Why all the hate?

82. deepthinker - August 1st, 2008 at 7:06 am

This is deep. I think that abortion should be legal, but only under certain circumstances. It is sad that it is easier to get an abortion, than a credit loan from the bank. It is unfair that many of the fathers are not even informed of the abortions. Why does it just have to be a woman’s choice? I also think that the decision to have an abortion should be one that should not be procrastinated about.. either have the abortion before 12 weeks, or not at all. Year after year, women are becoming less and less “motherly”, and are concentrating more on themselves. Could this be evolution’s solution to population control? Who knows. But I believe that is is better that the baby be aborted, than to grow up in a home where it is unwanted, and possibly abused. I had a co-worker that had an abortion at a young age. Even though it was the best decision for her at the time, she has been tormented by it for her entire adult life. Having 2 wonderful children myself, I am thankful that the decision of abortion never crossed my mind, even though they drive me crazy sometimes. I am happy to be crazy, and in love.

83. rushfan - August 1st, 2008 at 7:11 am

Elsa ~ I could not possibly respect you more. Your honesty is admirable and your intentions are clearly good. My mom ran a home daycare throughout my entire childhood. I was able to observe many moms and their varied lives. I watched two loving mothers struggle with this issue. They both ended up pregnant with babies they were told would have severe genetic disorders. One had the child and raised and loved her until she (the child) passed away and the other terminated her pregnancy. Both gave deep thought to their decision and lived with the consequences willingly. My brother was engaged to a lady who used abortion as her chosen form of birth control. She had three pregnancies in her teenage years and her third baby died of SIDS, after which she never wanted to have another baby, yet continued to have unwanted pregnancies. I also worked with a very smart, lovely woman who was a nurse who got pregnant in her thirties, wasn’t ready, had an abortion and now is the happy mom of a son she had when she was ready.
This is called anecdotal evidence.
You bring up a good point, though. True accidental, unintended pregnancy despite careful attention paid to birth control. Sadly, these are the minority of abortions performed, statistically. If abortion were truly limited to cases of rape, incest, life of the mother, I don’t think a debate would even be necessary. It truly would be a decision to be made between a woman and her healthcare provider. But, since this is not the case, someone has to look out for the rights of the baby. I am so sick of hearing about the rights of the mother but completely ignoring the fact that the baby does indeed have rights. Should women be prosecuted for smoking crack or shooting heroin while pregnant? It’s her body, right?

84. Elsa - August 1st, 2008 at 7:15 am

Carpe….
thanks for the support. Normally my history is not something I bandy about, but I thought a first person point of view was warranted in this case.

85. kiwiboi - August 1st, 2008 at 7:18 am

Widely-quoted US studies show that some 2% of abortions are for given reasons relating to either the heath of the baby/mother (1.7%) or due to the consequences of rape/incest (0.33%).

As for the other 98% :

- too young/immature/not ready for responsibility (32%)
- economic (21%)
- to avoid adjusting life (16%)
- mother single or in poor relationship (12%)
- enough children already (4%)

[Source : Alan Guttmacher Institute; as also quoted in an earlier comment]

Does kinda imply that there is a tendency to resort to abortion for personal convenience…

FWIW, let me paraphrase Ronald Reagan :

I’ve noticed that all of the people that are for abortion have already been born”.

86. Jackie - August 1st, 2008 at 7:20 am

Elsa,
Thank you for sharing your story. You’re right in that so many people stereotype the people who have abortions and don’t understand that it is a very difficult decision. Everyone should read your comment.

87. Patty - August 1st, 2008 at 7:21 am

A woman’s right to choose… It’s a term thrown about a lot in this kind of a debate. So much that it has become merely rhetoric. But if you really think about the term itself, you realize the essence of the pro-choice argument: it is the WOMAN’s right to choose.

It is not the government’s right to choose, it is not society’s right to choose, it is not the male partner’s right to choose. Until these people are smacked in the face with the prospect of
1) gaining 25-30 pounds at the least
2)feeling the pain that goes along with immediate weight gain and carrying a child to term
3)the nausea, heartburn, mood swings
4)loss of ability to work (the majority of women are not able to work into the end of their 3rd trimester)
5)the bleeding for up to 6 weeks after delivery
7)the pain of labor and delivery
8)the loss of sleep while pregnant
9)and the all around inability to sleep anywhere but on your left side… until all others are able to feel the abject fear of possibly being pregnant while being completely unable to have a child, I will not think of them as anything but laymen whose opinion is uneducated at best and misguided and abusive at worst.

I am older now and wiser, I have learned that I personally could not have an abortion. But I know what pregnancy entails and as a woman I know it is not to be taken lightly. Please understand that your right to an opinion, your right to drink alcohol, your right to do drugs or smoke is not diminished even though I don’t think you should do it. Just don’t take away my right to decide what I want to do with my own body be it harmful in your eyes or not.

88. Mom424 - August 1st, 2008 at 7:37 am

To answer the question put is simple. Yes it should be legal, and yes there should be rules. I realize that the rules are going to be arbitrary, drawing lines in the sand so to speak, but we do it all the time so it really shouldn’t cause all that much trouble. In the first 6 months or so, it should be a private matter between doctor and patient. After that it should be only in cases of dire need. A threat to the mother, rape, incest, and like circumstances.

A better question would be “How come the USA continues to have such a high abortion rate?” Canada’s rate remains at half the US rate. I’ll tell you exactly why. Because at the same time that near half the country wants to restrict women’s right to choose, they also deny their children the necessary education to lower the pregnancy rate.

How many people reading this view share the experience of Ringtail Roxy (Comment #12), no sex-ed until grade 12 and then a cursory glance? Seeing as girls can get pregnant at around 12 years of age, it is a little like closing the barn door after the horse has already left.

You folks ought to have proven to yourselves by now that ignorance about sex prevents no-one from participating in it.

Talk about hypocrisy. Contribute to the problem and then bitch about the consequences.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the considerable resources spent on both the pro-choice and anti-abortion sides of this debate were spent on education of the youngsters? It would be a win-win situation.

89. Elsa - August 1st, 2008 at 7:39 am

Kiwi…..statistics can be dry and lifeless and not tell the whole story.I fit 3 of the 5 statistics listed in your example, and I can tell you that in no way did MY personal inconvenience ever come into consideration. There are real people behind those numbers and if you talked with most you will find there’s much more to the story.

You are still welcome to your feelings on the subject, as long as I am still welcome to mine.

I think that’s what anyone who beleives in the right to make a reasoned choice would ask.

90. DiscHuker - August 1st, 2008 at 7:45 am

tempyra: i realize that the child of rape scenario is a popular one but look at this

“A number of studies have shown that pregnancy resulting from rape is very uncommon. One, looking at 2190 victims, reported pregnancy in only 0.6 percent.” (Abortion: Politics, Morality, and the Constitution [Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1984], p. 283.)

even amongst those numbers, “…in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent chose against abortion” (Mahkorn, “Pregnancy and Sexual Assault,” The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall & Watts, (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 55-69.)

In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.(^ Guttmacher Institute,”Induced Abortion Facts in Brief” (2002) (13,000 out of 1.31 million abortions in 2000 were on account of rape or incest)

but forgetting all of these numbers, if this is the lgic we want to use to legalize abortion then we are making a value judgment on which life is more useful/valuable. please tell me that you see the problems inherent in this position. i realize that a slippery slope isn’t always the best argument, but when does this attitude leave crisis pregnancies and enter the world of convenience for the parents. if a parent decides that after 2 years that raising a downs syndrome child is too difficult and the child’s quality of life isn’t that good, could they kill that child?

91. Elsa - August 1st, 2008 at 7:49 am

blacksunshine.I am very sorry you had such a terrible experience, but it sounds to me as if it was not YOUR choice. Being bullied into terminating a pregnancy would surely cause anyone mental and emotional anguish.
Have you thought of getting counciling to help ease your guilt and remorse? guilt and remorse that should not be your burden in the first place?

I wish you well and am sorry it was so tramatic for you.I can’t even begin to imagine.

92. warningdontreadthis - August 1st, 2008 at 7:50 am

wow, I hope this doesnt turn out like the gay marrige one did.

I think it should be an option. So yes.
But only the last option.

93. Eddie - August 1st, 2008 at 7:52 am

No except in cases of endangerment to the mother, incest, or rape. Please for one second ignore all of the scientific factual data or numbers and look at the big picture. I personally believe that the “facts or numbers” are a cop out for a decision which is often made out of convenience for the mother or father. Think about the fact that there is a life being created. It is amazing that the human body can do this. Creating a living, breathing, thinking being is truly something that should be valued and not taken for granted, which I feel abortion does. It is not just some statistical data to make you feel better about a “mistake.” The welfare and Medicare is out of control in this country (U.S.), but that it what it is there for. I do not think it is fair to decide on the fate of another innocent human life that can add so much to society. Just my two cents and I will not judge harshly on others opinions. I would much rather someone have an opinion that is different than mine than to be apathetic. (Btw apathy is really a problem that bothers me with people of my generation, I’m 20.) Have a good day!

94. Mom424 - August 1st, 2008 at 7:52 am

Hannah: Shame on you for showcasing that piece of propagandist crap. Who do you think produced that piece of sensationalist nonsense?

Read this, real doctors. A chief of pediatric neurology even.
http://www.plannedparenthood.o.....m-6136.htm

95. jfrater - August 1st, 2008 at 7:53 am

warningdontreadthis: It won’t - I am closely monitoring - if it gets out of hand I will close comments. I am trusting people to be respectful!

96. Elsa - August 1st, 2008 at 7:54 am

MOM 424 I agree completely.education is the key for teenage pregnancies. But having worked with kids of that age for the last few decades there is a frightening trend that having a baby is “cool” it’s considered an accessory, much like the latest shoes, as well as “company” or a living doll baby. I’m much more concerned with that mindset than a lack of education or the right to be pro choice or against abortion.

But I digress.

97. Mom424 - August 1st, 2008 at 7:57 am

Yes and what contributes to the mindset? What makes having a kid the best option? A lack of education, or a poor one.

98. jfrater - August 1st, 2008 at 7:58 am

Mom424: I have to just remind everyone who the founder of Planned Parenthood was and what she stood for - it was Margaret Sanger - a woman who founded her society on eugenics:

“the most urgent problem of to-day is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.” She goes on to say: “possibly drastic and Spartan methods may be forced upon Americans”

Item 6 on 10 Books that screwed up the world.

99. kiwiboi - August 1st, 2008 at 8:00 am

True accidental, unintended pregnancy despite careful attention paid to birth control. Sadly, these are the minority of abortions performed, statistically. If abortion were truly limited to cases of rape, incest, life of the mother, I don’t think a debate would even be necessary.

rushfan - firstly, I endorse the concluding parts of your earlier comment (#68), and I wholly agree with the comment above.

As for the “anecdotal evidence” remark you make in #83…right again; and this is a nuance most people miss. Anecdotal evidence is interesting, but adds little to the substance of a debate. There are many, many people who could relate a story similar to, but without the eloquence of, Elsa. I am in no position to judge anybody else, but such tales in the context of this discussion do bring to mind the remark made by the pro-choice activist Kate Michelman regarding the only 3 real reasons for abortion :

rape, incest, and “my situation”.

100. DiscHuker - August 1st, 2008 at 8:04 am

patty; your list of all the bad things that happen during pregnancy is what millions of women all over the world gladly accept daily.

and you forgot the one main reason why they do so, the get the priviledge of bringing new life into the world. ask any mother, most likely yourself, if it was worth it.

101. krysten - August 1st, 2008 at 8:04 am

Elsa, thank you so much for sharing your experience. I was just wondering why you had decided abortion instead of adoption.

102. Mom424 - August 1st, 2008 at 8:06 am

jfrater; Her comments were taken out of context. I am actually disappointed that you believe the propaganda around Margaret Sanger. I suggest you read this.
http://fundamentalistdeceit.bl.....chive.html

103. Elsa - August 1st, 2008 at 8:09 am

MOM424.I wasn’t dismissing education, simply commenting on a trend that I see. It’s a social issue here in the US that I am disturbed by and at a loss on how to combat.

104. Joss - August 1st, 2008 at 8:12 am

“Abortion takes innocent human life; it’s the ultimate act of murder. So, no.”

www.abort73.com

105. Mom424 - August 1st, 2008 at 8:13 am

DiscHuker: I agree it was worth it. Personally I have never entertained the thought of abortion. I don’t believe that for me it would be an option. But, I am not everyone else, and I don’t have the right to make that decision for anyone else either. Not my body, not my choice.

106. Mom424 - August 1st, 2008 at 8:14 am

Elsa: Better alternatives. Better education, better opportunities. I would suggest voting Obama a step in the right direction.

107. Laura2 - August 1st, 2008 at 8:15 am

I think it should be legal. Where I am from, and where I live, not only it is illegal but also others birth control methods are kind of rare (actually, what it happens is that birth control pills are quite expensive, and condoms are not that cheap). We usually don’t have sexual education at school, so unless your family teaches you about contraception methods, you have to learn it the hard way. There are many many teenagers (not only poor, uneducated ones, I’m talking about middle-upper class kids) that believe that the first time you have sex you cannot get pregnant. Or that if you wash yourself after sex, you won’t get pregnant either. And as the abortion is illegal, we have lots of teenagers (and actually little girls, girls of 11 or 12 years old) pregnant or with kids they cannot take care of.
Here we have to get a special authorization from the government to abort (it is legal in certain cases). Last time a woman asked for this (she had a mental disease and was raped by her uncle) the justice took so long to give her the authorization that the baby was born (it was a horrible story actually, and quite controversial, it is said that the judges were influenced by member of the church, that has a great political weight here).
Getting an abortion is quite expensive here, if you don’t want to end up dead or sterile or with a massive infection, so only few people has access to it (ironically, the people who could support a child, at least economically).
However, I think that along with legal abortion, sexual education has to come (so abortions rates can be reduced), as free access to contraceptives and a different view of what a woman is and what her rights are.
As for if the man has the right to make a decision about this? I think it depends on the situation, he has the right to say what he thinks, but I believe the last word has to come from the woman, after all, it is her body and her life what will be more affected.

108. VioletWings - August 1st, 2008 at 8:17 am

Obviously some people are bringing up very good points. Most people know what they are talking about. However I should like to point out some things.

First of all, I am totally against abortion, for any reason. I am not the type of person who often goes around preaching her belief on things like this, however I feel I must comment on this subject.

To those who are mentioning rape as a reason to abort a child, or a will-be child. It is a fact that during a rape a woman’s body is under so much distress that it is very hard for her to get pregnant by it? It’s true. Now I am NOT saying that this is true in every case, in fact I am sure that this is not true in every case, however I think that those of you who mentioned rape think that pregnancy by rape happens much more often than it actually does.

Also, for those who mentioned teenage girls who might have otherwise might have gone to school and college had they just aborted their baby. Um, if you are talking about 15 year old girls getting pregnant, I am sorry but do you know how much more likely it is for teenage girls who have gotten pregnant once to get pregnant again? Why wouldn’t they? They dont believe in using protection obviously. Now maybe it was a one-time deal with these girls, but in my opnion, if you are old enough to have sex, then you are old enough to take care of the baby that may come along with it.

ok, and what about grown women with familes who want abortions for one thing or another? Well this is a true story that i heard from the source just a couple of years ago:
A women has friends with another woman who had a husband, and three girls. The woman found out that she was pregant again, and when she went to the doctor to find out the sex of her baby, she found out that it was another girl.
Her and her husband wanted a boy, so the woman aborted her child. JUST because it wasnt a boy.
I was almost sick when i heard that. I couldnt believe that abortion was legal when someone could do that to an innocent child.

Im sorry the length of this comment, i greatly appreciate you reading all of it.

109. Elsa - August 1st, 2008 at 8:21 am

krysten,
Adoption was definately an option I spent a great deal of time considering. I know me. If I had carried the pregnancy to term I would have had a hard time relinquishing the child to another. And I think that would have haunted me on a daily basis. Is my child healthy, happy, being loved by nuturing parents? Or was my child a last ditch effort for a couple to try and save their marriage, etc, etc. Instead, I chose counciling and an early term abortion. I knew I wouldn’t be able to turn over my child once it was born. And the child would have most likely suffered for my selfish choice. I was not ready emotionally, financially or mentally. As stated above, when I was ready to h