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Top 10 Bizarre Mormon Beliefs

Mystern . . . Comments

Every religion has unique beliefs. This is a list of odd LDS beliefs. Each Item on the list quotes LDS scripture so you can be sure it is authentic.

10. Tithing

Tithing-1

While tithes are not uncommon among religion, rarely are they mandatory. LDS theology states that in order to make it to the highest kingdom of heaven, you must pay a full and honest tithe.

D&C 119: 3-6
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.
6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you.

9. Pleasure in Life

Coffee

This is one of the most famous pieces of LDS doctrine. It’s also the cause of many myths about Mormons. Basically; no coffee, no drugs, no tobacco.

D&C 89: 5-13
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.


8. Spirits

Ghost

This one is very unique to the LDS faith. Basically, everyone on earth now was a spirit in the pre-existence. When we die, our spirits are separated from our bodies and if we were good they go to “spirit paradise.” If we were bad they go to “spirit prison.” The spirit world exists as a place for spirits to go while awaiting the second coming.

D&C 138: 8-14
8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18—20.)
10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)
11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.
12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

7. Modern Revelation

Monson

Almost everyone who knows anything about the Mormon religion knows they have a prophet. What many don’t know, is anything that the prophet says in official capacity is considered official canon.

D&C 43: 2-9
2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.
3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.
4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.
5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;
6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.
7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.
8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given.
9 And thus ye shall become instructed in the law of my church, and be sanctified by that which ye have received, and ye shall bind yourselves to act in all holiness before me—


6. Jesus visited the Americas

Mormonmap

The Book of Mormon is a book of LDS scripture that takes place during the same time as the Bible and takes place on the American continent. It follows the stories of two tribes who descended from the family of Lehi. After Jesus’ resurrection LDS people believe he visited the peoples of the Americas.

3 Nephi 11: 7-12
7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.
8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.
9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:
10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11 And behold, I am the alight and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.

5. The Nature of God

God

While most religions believe in God, the LDS religion believes in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as separate beings. They also believe that God, Jesus and resurrected beings have bodies of “flesh and bone.”

D&C 129:1-5
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

D&C 130: 22-23
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

Once you read it, you’ll never look at Mormon Fundamentalism the same way again. Explore the surprisingly brutal Mormon world with John Krakauer’s Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith at Amazon.com!


4. Priesthood

Priesthood

In the LDS religion any worthy male can be given the priesthood and is given specific duties. Black people were not allowed to have the priesthood until 1978. Females are not allowed to have the priesthood.

D&C 107: 1-5
1 There are, in the church, two priesthoods, namely, the Melchizedek and Aaronic, including the Levitical Priesthood.
2 Why the first is called the Melchizedek Priesthood is because Melchizedek was such a great high priest.
3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.
4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.
5 All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to this priesthood.

Official Declaration – 2, 1978
Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.

3. Multiple Heavens

Heavens-1

In LDS doctrine there are three heavens: the Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, and Telestial Kingdom. The Celestial is the highest, where God and the ones who followed his law reside. The Terrestrial is the middle, where people who followed the Law of Moses reside. The Telestial is the lowest, where the ones who followed carnal law reside.

D&C 76: 94-98
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.
97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;


2. Forgiveness

Forgiveness

In LDS theology you can be forgiven for any sin, save two. First, denying the Holy Spirit, and second, murder. Also, God is infinitely forgiving, until the second coming. After that, you end up where you end up, no matter what. There are no second chances. Period.

D&C 76: 43-45
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

D&C 18: 42
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

D&C 76: 111-112
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

1. Multiple Worlds and Multiple Gods

Planets

This deserves some explanation. Mormons believe that God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.

D&C 76: 24
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

D&C 93: 10
10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

Moses 1: 33
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

D&C 76: 108
108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

D&C 131: 1-5
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

Contributor: Mystern



  • DarkWolf

    They're wierd, but it's not scientology weird.

    • Renaee

      Hmmm??
      See,
      We may seem "weird" but we would never say such a thing to you or your religious beliefs.

      • LDS=lunacy!

        Yup…. A random guy in the 17/1800's came up with all of this on his own. OHHH and it's legitimate and should be respected?

        You're CRAZIES!!!!!!!!!! And sexist/racist.

        • person

          hey stupid get your facts right you idiot i am mormon and thirteen and i already know how rediculous u nd ur comments are

          • Corpsegrinder(notfischer

            Lol you can’t type.

          • Sarah

            Please use proper grammar and spelling.

          • Joseph will die

            Or spell

          • Workoutsmurf

            You are most certainly going t end up in the Mormon Hell of bad grammar. I dated a Mormon for two years and hav never met a more confused, guilt-ridden liar in my life. Your religion forces people to be something inhuman. Magic underwear that protects you from harm, and it’s EVERYONE ELSE that’s wrong and insane huh? What a group of MORONS…..MORON, MORMON…..odd how those two words are SO similar.

          • Sarah – a proud LDS

            I am a Mormon :) Guys, we tithe because God gives us SO MUCH…. we decided to give 10% back, and that’s bad because . . . ? We believe in multiple gods, as in our God once lived on an earth and worshipped a god just like us. I mean, think about it… Why are we here? Is it really just an endless eternity with no bigger plan? We’re here to prove ourselves and how much we want to live with our Heavenly Father again. I don’t blame y’all for thinking of us as one big cult or crazy house… Because the world plays us out as exactly that. You just don’t understand :) But that’s okay. I don’t understand half the things I’m supposed to. :) I hope anything I said meant something :)

          • wendall

            hahaha you guys dont have to believe our faith but just wait until that last day when we say i told you so

        • Mormon

          A random guy didnt just make this up. He received revelation from God and Jesus Christ. And the way I see it, even if you don’t think this is real or legitimate, I’ll have lived a great life. Being pure and holy. While you may have lived a life of drugs, alcohol, and things tht poison the body spiritually and physically. And if it wasn’t real, which I know for myself is, you would be upset that you didn’t make more out of your life. I am a Mormon and proud, and I have no problem with other religions.

          • chris I

            You Mormons are a bunch of weirdos, but don’t feel bad because you aren’t alone. All the worlds religions are absurd.

          • Evan

            First of, I respect your religion and thoughts. Secondly, i have stayed clean my whole life with drugs and alcohol. Do i boast that i am clean and holy? no. Just because i haven’t done these things doesn’t mean i’m better than anyone who has done it ALL. Also, when people ask me what religion I am, i respond “A follower of Christ” , i used to say im baptist but in reality all i am is a follower of Christ. Pride in our religion and people coming up with different ideas and ways of things lead to these different branches of Christianity.

            “Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.” Romans 12:16

            “May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” Galations 6:14

            Now hear me out , as your brother/sister in Christ Jesus, i love you with all my heart and say these things to you out of it. Please do not be too hasty to make assumptions about what I say for only the Truth comes from the Lord himself. God bless :)

          • Mike

            your going to hell, only catholics can enter into heaven, read the bible, you must follow the church founded by Peter

          • Mormonalso

            My sentiments exactly.

          • I’mamormonandamormonjustbelieves

            And I believeeeee that in 1978 God changed his mind about BLACK PEOPLE!

          • Livetrulyhappy

            “your going to hell, only catholics can enter into heaven, read the bible, you must follow the church founded by Peter”

            Um.. I think you might need to reread the bible, Peter didn’t found the church… Christ did. I think that Peter would be really unhappy with people worshiping him as the ‘founder’ when Christ was. Peter was an awesome prophet though. Wouldn’t it have been amazing to walk with Christ and learn from him. ;D

          • ryan

            i thought judging other people was a sin for mormons.

          • The Man

            Until Mormonism can show proof of its believes, I shall not here of it. Mormons believe themselves to be better then others, and “know” there right. Thats right, they “know” there right, no proof, no nothing, they just “know”. At least that what my Mormon friends say o.o

          • muckit

            What I dont like with any form of religous extremists is how you automatically assume by your above comments that anyone else is a lesser human being hence your drug and alcohol comments, why cant you see that we be and think the same we just dont agree with a radical view like you do, why do we suddenly have to become alkies and druggies?

          • Destry

            ummm… that’s what he *said* happened. No one saw anything but him. The “witnesses”, BY THEIR OWN TESTIMONY, saw only some obejcts that Smith showed them very briefly and CLAIMED they were holy things.

          • Michael.John Bernadotte Miller

            Satans Stratergy is to divide and conquor and has managed to divide differant churches against each other,Therfore it is high time to unite all christians in one purpose Defeat Satan

          • ConcerenedHeart.

            Hi, idk if anyone is on this thing anymore but I would love to speak with you. I completely agree with what you just said about even if you are wrong at least you lived a good life, I mean if atheist are wrong, they are in for a really bad rest of eternity, but if your wrong, then bummer. So where I question you is not on your faith but on your religion. I am a first-church of God Christian (what I like to call your run of the mill christian). Why is it you believe Joseph Smith? Mormons claim to believe in the Bible, but then how could you believe the book of mormon when it is so contradictory. God was not a God of money, who would never demand you pay him a certain amount of money to be called good. Why do you believe you can work your way into heaven? When the bible disagrees. Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God” John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.”
            But the thing that really gets my heart worried about you, is how could you believe that there are multiple gods? and that you yourself my become a god. That is certainly not the teachings of the bible. God did a pretty good job at inspiring the written word of 66 books written by over 40 different authors over a time span of about 1,500 years without many contradictions and with repeated proof of fulfilled prophecy. How could he then all of a sudden inspire the word of a completely contradictory book written by one man?

        • lacie

          Why are women allowed to have babies and men are not? A woman is closer to heaven and to the creator when she brings life into this world than any man will ever be.

          A woman is a partner with God in rearing and raising his spirit children here on earth. It seems to me that it would be very unfair to give women all of the advantages in life. If we held the Priesthood too what would men have?

          Joesph Smith was called of God. Before you judge and make false assumptions you should really research your statements, because I can speak for every member of our church in saying that you obviously have no clue. Also tithing is an important ordinance in our church. Think about it 10% is nothing when you compare it to the horrible things Jesus Christ went through. He died for our sins. He bled from every pore in his body, so that we could be able to repent. I gladly pay my tithing, even though times are tough–i always reap the blessings–sometimes my power bill isnt as much, or my car seems to get better gas mileage.

          I invite you to come to our church one Sunday. Check it out. We are good people with high morals. We don’t do things that could put us in harms way. I know that if you come to one of our services, you will feel the spirit in such a way you have never before.

          I hope that if you got nothing out of this that you and all who make false accusations at least learn to think before you speak, and know what you are talking about.

          • Trisha58

            Your church feels it is better then everyone else.Sure there are some good people who follow the Mormon religion, but then there are the majority who feel they are the only ones going to heaven. Your religion prevents a father from seeing his own daughter married just because in the mormon religion you feel he’s not temple worthy, yet he’s asked to pay for it. Your religion is elitist, it’s excludes people and is unwelcoming all the things a religion should not be! I have lived in Utah as a nonmormon for quite a while now, so I know first hand all about your religion. You are so big on families are forever but instead of allowing a father to see his only daughter married he’s made to feel unworthy! Tell me if families are forever were does he fit in to this belief. Is he only worthy of a lesser heaven! How ridiculous, I,ll save you all a seat in he’ll.

          • Ex-Utahn

            Smith was “called of God”?? Really?
            Matthew 7:15 – Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves
            Matthew 24:4-6 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
            Matthew 24-11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
            Matthew 24-23-24 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
            John 14-6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

            Do I really need to go on. I lived behind the Zion curtain in UT for 10 years. After watching my neighbors not even talk to my 3 yr old boy or come to our house on Halloween because we were not seen every Sunday at the local ward I decided to move my family out of there to a normal world again – somewhere where church and state are actually separate!! Not where my son would have to go to “study hall” one period every day while 90% go to “seminary” to learn about this false prophet!! Don’t EVEN try to tell me the church does not control state politics – I’ve witnessed first hand the re-mapping of electoral lines due to small areas of the city getting a small majority of non-cult followers!!

            I read the book – seriously?? People believe that man – didn’t he use his “seer stones” to search for gold in the ground to rip-off people for money?? Look it up! In all my research about that charlatan Lucy Harris is the only credible witness to his writings – she proved he was a fraud and people still believed his lies afterward!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Harris

            And don’t tell me the crap about taking multiple wives to save them from the enduring hardships of the times – my ass!! He was a pervert. He took barely teenage girls before they were ever on any long, harsh trip cross country. Ask his first wife!!

            If you believe in anything about the bible you know that those who worship this false prophet are doomed for eternity!
            Someone else wrote about how they have lived a “clean”life and “what if they are wrong, at least their life was fulfilling?” If you truly believe the bible – an eternity in hell is not worth that. I’ll drink and have sex without my garments on and take my chances with a religion older than my grandfathers made up stories!!

          • mahuika88

            I’m a Mormon. I was born mormon, but not in Utah. I just recently moved to Utah and I agree that many members of our church in this state are judgmental. They look down on those who don’t live up to their ideas of what a Mormon should be. Having lived in several other parts of the world, I can tell you that the majority of Mormons are NOT like this. It seems to be worse in Utah.

            As far as excluding people and being elitist as an entire church, I find that hard to believe. Why do we have 50,000 + missionaries all over the world inviting people to come to our church, be baptized, and go to the Temple? If the church was truly as secretive/elitist as many claim, I doubt membership would be above 14 million people.

            The Bible does warn of false prophets, who will deceive many. But it also teaches the need of true prophets. (Amos 3:7, Ephesians 4:11-13). If Joseph Smith was not a prophet, there must be another one, because I cannot believe that God would leave us without a prophet. Are God’s words limited to the pages of the Bible? If the books of Moses were sufficient, why was there need for Jeremiah or Isaiah, or the other Old Testament Prophets. Also with the New Testament, were early Christians, who for a long time only had access to the Gospel Mark offended when they received Matthew, Luke and John? Of course not! It is clear that there were Christians before the existence of the Bible as one book, therefore it is not the Bible which makes one Christian.
            As Mormons we love the Bible, but we realize that it doesn’t contain the answer to every religious question. All Christian churches have different doctrines but yet a core belief in the Bible at their center. The limited scope of the Bible has lead to so many different interpretations of it’s words. It is ironic that the Bible, while being common to all Christians, has become a battleground of interpretations and arguing. 2 Peter 1:20-21 tells us that scripture is not privately interpreted, but rather given by “holy men of God”. Why would God leave us with the Bible and no more explanation regarding its contents?
            We believe in a God who is involved in our lives. Ralph Waldo Emerson urged students in the Harvard Divinity School to teach that ‘that God is, not was; that He speaketh, not spake.”

          • Judeaus

            Women also make for great cooks. Now get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich!!

          • Lisa

            I would accept that that women have motherhood and men have priesthood as equally important to each other IF women did not need men to have babies and if you had to be worthy to be a mother. But they are obviously NOT EQUAL in that respect. Men do not need women to hold the presthood and ALL worthy men are entitled to the priesthood, while women need men to have babies and some women who are worthy to be mothers never have babies and some that do are definately not worthy of it! So motherhood and priesthood are clearly not equal!

          • Lisa

            Also if women were equal to men, you’d hear more about a heavenly mother. Course I like to think of heavenly mother and heavenly father are one through marriage, and praying to father also includes mother. So you’re addressing both. But I never hear mention of her to often. I must say if my husband and I ever do reach the celestial kingdom and become like our father, I must say I insist on at least being recognized by our children. As a mother myslef I can very well imagine how she must feel about never being mentioned, recognized,respected, and loved by her children.

          • Fed up with mindless sheep

            You are SO weird!!!! It’s called science..Joseph Smith was a liar and a CON in his day and you people are falling for it hook, line, and sinker in th 21st century….even in the face of facts!!! Do u really think an all powerful, all good, all knowing being would give a shit about earthly possesions or money?!! No..but a con man trying to survive in the 1800’s sure would! Hmmmmmm..use the brains that EVOLUTION has given you. If you people just stayed to your weirdo selves than that would be fine but you’re always trying to force your bullshit on the rest of us…and now trying to become president?! HELL NO!!!!!!

          • truedoctrine

            @Mike

            So you claim that only catholics go to heaven. Thats false. You claim to follow what is said in the bible. Well what about the part that says ”You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” Ok so that is what God says in the Bible. I ask you then, why do catholics pray to saints? Why do they worship Mary? Why do they have so many images in the forms of saints that they worship? Obviously the Catholic church does not follow what is taught in the bible in any way. Your church is an abomination in the sight of God. Your religion is false and following the teaching of it will land you a spot in Hell with the devil and his angels. Have fun with eternal damnation catholics.

          • Big Dog 57

            All female mammals give birth. So what? It’s just nature. If men didn’t pump semen into you then you wouldn’ t give birth at all. What an idiot.

          • Judah

            Do good things and good thongs happens. But did Jesus really make your chevy get better gas mileage? Did he do it when he came to America? Get real.

          • JP

            How can we go to a service when we are not even allowed to enter the building?

          • kingoftexas

            Everyone is invited to attend services. You must be thinking about the Temples. Not even all members are allowed in the Temples; but we would like for all to be worthy and attend. :)

        • Mormon

          Im Mormon and i dont say anything about any other religions. I respect all religions. We are not racist we accept all people.It wasnt a random person either it was a man who prayed about the church. He was being prepared. He wasnt just picked randomly. I dont appreciate you calling me CRAZY.
          Thank You

          • Joseph Smith

            You ARE crazy!!!

        • Emma

          I am not a mormon but as someone who has read the book of mormon and is on a path of discovering her spirituality i have explored the mormon religion. I do not think that all mormons are racist. My closest friend who is a mormon is chinese. I would say that there are flaws with every religion and in the end it is gods decision who enters heaven. I believe that you should be free to believe what you want with no judgement.I think that as mortal beings we don’t have any right to say what god thinks. I Think we look at the texts provided and do our best to lead good and honest lives. There is no religion in the world that is perfect in the eyes of everyone. I would say that those who use religion as means to discriminate and persecute others are not actually accomplishing what they think they are. By making these actions i would say that they are making a bad name for themselves and i cant imagine that god would approve of it. In the end it is gods decision.

          • Derrick

            There is not a judgement in this life, but the next and it is important what you believe. Simple logic provides that if two beliefs claim to be true they cannot both be true. There is only one absolute truth. You are also correct in saying every religion has flaws, but let me tell you of something without flaws, His name is Jesus and He died for your sins as a perfect sacrifice. The Jesus the Mormons will teach you about is not the same as the one most Christians believe. The Mormons will twist certain truths to suit their needs in order to bring you in, you have to be very learned to not be deceived. If you have any questions I’d be more than happy to answer them. I just think you should be informed on both sides of the matter before you commit you life to a religion that is indeed false.
            With Love, Derrick

          • budsned

            No, Derrick, your statement that the Jesus the Mormons will teach you about is not the same as the one most Christians believe, is simply incorrect. They believe in the same Jesus Christ. Their beliefs about him vary from what most Christian churches teach. If different understandings about Christ and his Gospel meant that they all believed in different Jesus’, the same misguided statement could be made about every Christian Sect other than the one you happen to believe in. To say the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Christian is absurd.

          • truedoctrine

            @ Mike

            you say we must follow the church founded by Peter. That is absurd. That is why the Catholic church is false. Mormons follow the church founded by Christ, hence their real name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I myself would much rather follow the church founded by Christ, not Peter

          • Notbetterthananyone

            I want to talk to Derrick first I want to ask where your information comes from I am a Mormon and can answer any questions you have. I would finally like to address the other Mormons on here that were being mean to others. We don’t believe we are better than anyone else we can have a civil conversation but I don’t want anyone to be mean or put down others beliefs

        • Ashlin

          if you think it is stupid and wrong, why are you looking it up on the internet?

        • David

          if you think Joseph Smith was crazy and racist, you obviously have not done your homework.
          he didn’t make this up, and no, he didn’t do this on his own.

        • chad

          Better than being an uneducated ignorant fool like you:) Btw that random guy had a fourth grade education pretty good job at making stuff up I’d say.

          • Blah

            He just took stuff from the bible and Koran and mixed it up and added his own stuff

        • God

          And yet people believe in the bible? A two thousand year old collection of writings, scriptures, gospels, whatever you deem fitting of a man that talks to a burning bush, a man living in a fish for three days, a man walking on water, a man feeding thousands of people with a loaf of bread and two fish, a man building a huge wooden boat and gathering ALL animals of the world to survive a flood, talking snakes… blah blah blah
          At the same time people in the Bronze Age thought…..the world was flat, constellations were celestial beings, and sea monsters were a legitimate danger…. But yeah the bible makes absolute sense. You sold me. It’s all bullshit. Even America’s founding fathers didn’t buy this load of shit.
          THINK about it, this guy creates these stories of being a prophet hand picked by God himself, but that can’t be true because this two thousand year old prophet already did that and told us whats really supposed to happen. I’ll just leave it at that.

        • Gianna

          If someone just made it up one day so you think it would still be around? maybe there is more to it than you think.

          • David Murphy

            People that they say Joseph Smith made this up forget he was a 15 year old illiterate boy. :)

        • Evan

          If the LDS faith isn’t true then how did Joseph Smith accurately predict the Civil War before it ever occured? Even to the point of specifically stating that South Carolina would be the first state to secede. Random freaking guess or Divine Revelation? Just some food for thought.

          • kingoftexas

            Evan

            You better quit making sense. :)

          • provemewrong

            With all the political turmoil of the time it would be a bit like me “predicting” that the U.S will be at war with Iran within the decade. For some REAL food for thought why not take a sampling of one of his other prophesies.
            “. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394).
            Does this sound like a prophet of God to you? Or the ramblings of a cult leader that’s been backed into a corner.

        • wendall

          You people dont have to believe in our faith but when the last days comes dont get mad when we say i told you so

      • Nightshade

        Don’t even go there. You can say YOU would never say such a thing, but don’t answer for the entire Mormon religion. I used to go to a Mormon church, was baptized there after being pretty much pulled into it by the people I lived with at the time. I heard plenty of talk about other religions, and about people in general, usually AT church! So don’t play up the Mormons as saint-hearted people that would never even think of saying something bad about someone else. There are jerks everywhere (and Mormans can be very big jerks if someone is ex-comunicated).

        • Josie

          First of all, you are excommunicated if you are not living by the word of God. You can’t just be ripped out of the Church for no specific reason. Obviously if you were “pulled” in by your neighbors, you cannot think for yourself. Mormons are not jerks. If one person critisizes someone, that doesn’t mean that all people are that way, does it? It is the individual that should be blamed. Not their religion. I am a Beehives President in my LDS Church, and I am here to tell you that LDS people are the kindest people you will ever meet. That is why we have an LDS Welfare and storehouse to help the poor and sick. Even if you are inactive, the people in your ward still take care of you and offer to make you dinner, wash your car, help repair your roof, etc. Please do not blame an entire culture for the actions of one person. I hope that someday you will find peace with people and with the Divine Being. Thanks.

        • blip

          Like the saying goes everyone is retarted and no one loves you not even god him self this is the devels playground dont’ forget that god never took back the power he gave.

        • someone

          I am LDS (Mormon) and I understand where you are coming from. There are some judgmental (Jerks) everywhere and yes Mormons are sometimes judgmental too. (you already know this probably) But everyone isn’t perfect and sometimes we judge others even though we shouldn’t. And I am sorry if you have been offended or judged by someone of this church. And the person who has or may have’d judged you shouldn’t have done this, but right now they may feel really bad for what they did. And so if someone makes a mistake (even if they don’t apologize) we need to forgive and forget. ( back to the judging part) I have judged people, which I feel bad about and shouldn’t have, but now if I’m judging someone I stop and think of how imperfect I am and so I shouldn’t be judging them because they make different mistakes than I do, so that makes me stop judging them and start loving them for who they are and all the good they do. I hope that you know that we try to be loving to everyone we come in contact with, even if sometimes we judge because judging can be a hard thing not to do. I hope you understand where I am coming from. :)

      • Ashlin

        no, i agree with dark wolf, we are weird. to others we are weird. to me many other religions are weird. including the Catholic church. They have underage people drinking alcohol! its hilarious. its just all so silly. so what if we are weird, so what if they are weird. it really just doesn’t matter. :)

      • Salamandae

        You obviously haven’t met the Mormon Elite….

    • GPerez

      Check your spelling…

    • Peter Sanchez

      lol LORD XENU BEWARE!

      • axiom

        HAHAHAH. YES.

    • Chuk

      First off, I am Mormon. Sue me. I love perverted, dark humor as much as the next guy. Sure, there are a lot of elitists in Utah, as I expect there are elitist Catholics in Rome or wherever. It happens. I honestly think that we will see where god puts us when it happens. We will see.

      Also. Polygamy. I have no idea what the crap Joseph smith was thinking, or in that matter what God was thinking, because they justified themselves with “the girls need husbands who can take care of them” … … I have no idea either. I just believe in Thomas S. Monson, our current prophet. If he goes for polygamy though, I’m out and becoming atheist, or at least agnostic.

      Christ in the Americas. I believe it happened. There is no proof, but that’s what faith is about. There’s no proof that Jesus suffered for our sins other than a book. People still believe that it happened.

      No drugs, alcohol, or caffeine. I know for a fact that the caffeine thig is pretty much universally ignored by about 70-80% of the church. Drugs and alcohol have been known for their debilitating effects on human life.

      Book of Mormon. You go back to when you were 17. Now, imagine that you have almost no schooling, because you had been raised on a farm. Could you have written a whole religious text by yourself, and in all of those these and thous? I couldn’t. So, even if just by that logic, the book of Mormon would have to be a revelation from god, or otherwise just a humongous elaborate hoax perpetrated by dozens of people. I think someone would have stepped up and said, “sorry folks, it’s a scam. Bye!” no. Believe what you want, but I believe that the book of Mormon is true.

    • Jenny

      lmao – “Mormons… making scientologists look sane since 1978” (from Tosh.0 haaa) :D

  • The scriptures themselves are so funny to read, especially for #10. It's like someone saying 'give me your money' or 'don't do this' but making it looks like it's come out of the bible.

    • Surely

      Check out Malachi 3:8-10. Its not just the Mormons who want your money.

      • Moss

        They are, however, the ones who make it a requirement.

        • Daenon

          I must say I’ve read through this war going on and I think its altogether very stupid. Yes I’m Mormon (wrong LDS), No I’m not brainwashed, and I don’t see other religions as being “false”. They just don’t have the whole picture. Also using verses from the bible is like playing the telephone game, its been rewritten so many times it could have been a book about a devil with magical powers. (Not what I believe in any way.) To say though that Mormons are a false religion is basically the same as saying that all christianity is false, because we also believe the bible to be true.

          Who says we have to pay tithing? We are not required to. However I can testify that my family paid tithing when we were about as close to losing everything as you can get. We lived like that for almost 3 years, we still payed our tithing. Yet somehow I was still able to get those things that we didn’t have money for. (like sports and private school) That was back when I was 8, (I’m 14 now) and my family is finally on top of finances. As “Mormon” said (which btw great way to put a “Biased” sticker on your head) our donations don’t go toward paying that already wealthy guy standing at the pulpit.

          Also would it be too much of me to ask you to ask an LDS member, (not a Mormon since there are reformed versions of Mormonism) for information on our church. Not exmormon.org.

          If you want to really know how and average 14 year old LDS member views the church email me at ([email protected]). That way next time someone wants to bash on my religion, or are just interested, you can get accurate information. Ill keep things to what I know and believe.
          Cya

          • Derrick

            I’m sorry but the Bible has never been rewritten, you have in fact been brainwashed on this subject. I too was raised Mormon and they told me that it had been tampered with, yet after I left I investigated it’s historicity and credibility and found out that it is the most reliable ancient book in all existence. There are over 25,000 Greek manuscripts which all have the same message (save a few minor differences which don’t change the meaning). And if you collected all the writings from the Early Church Fathers dating prior to the Council of Nicaea (AD 325) you will find all but 11 verses of the Bible word for word what we have today!!! So to say that the early Roman Catholic Church or Christian reformers rewrote the Bible is completely without basis.
            Yet! The Book of Mormon has had almost 4,000 changes since it’s 1830 publish date, now which is the more perfect book?

          • Daenon

            @Derrick If that were the case then I havnt been brainwashed by any LDS sources. That is what ive learned from surfing the internet and searching the history and origins of many different churches. Also if the bible is written almost word for word. Why are there so many different version of the bible?

          • Derrick

            @Daenon Here is the thing about the internet…you don’t believe everything you read off the internet! And there are several reasons why there are so many word for word translations. One is that the Greek language is a bit difficult to translate to the English language and it is hard to render an English word with the same meaning and weight that was intended with the Greek word. Also our language keeps evolving, for example Charity which is the KJV of the Greek word agape doesn’t exactly have the same meaning in the English language as it did in the 16th Century. The fact of the matter is the Bible has never been rewritten, so are you willing to actually evaluate what you believe on facts. Or will you only take in what people tell you is true, if you’re not after the truth then I am wasting my time talking to you.

          • Daenon

            @Derrick I’m willing to know the truth from facts, but the problem is that since your talking about history that happened so long ago there is a high chance that its not 100% accurate from any source.
            As for my internet sources, what exactly makes one source better than the other on this topic? When it comes to religion even the history of the bible and oldest religions there are many different variations of what happened. Who gets to say which is the true variation? You, me? Not likely, no source can be 100% credible. Unless there is one, (or a few) and you can tell me about it so I can better know the truth.
            Also (totally off topic in this conversation) People shouldn’t tell someone they cant do something because of their religion, unless it violates their standards… I’m suppper mad at my teacher, cause she wouldn’t let me participate in our schools pep rally! Everyone else was mad too, because I was one of the few people that can dance at our school! She said it was “Because I was Mormon, and I don’t like them” you shouldn’t say someone cant participate in something if they want to just because of their religion!

          • Derrick

            @Daenon People learned truth long before the internet was invented, there are reputable sources out there that have clear evidence for the reliability of the Bible. Wikipedia is not a reputable source by the way. And we can ascertain the validity of the Bible by the evidence left behind in history which there is more evidence that supports the reliability and consistency of the Bible than any other ancient text. When there are manuscripts that date back to the 1st Century that has the same message in the Bible as the one we read today the simple fact is that it was NEVER changed. Mormons have no choice but to attack the Bible to support their claims, and with it being the most attacked book of all time it still stands strong. Teaching doctrines contrary to the what the Bible and having a poor exegesis structure (having the prophet interpret Scripture rather than Scripture interpreting Scripture; the first rule of hermeneutics) makes Mormonism not only “UnChristian” but “Anti-Christian.” If anyone brings a gospel rather than the one Jesus and his Apostles brought “let them be anathema.” Very strong language against people who tamper with God’s Word.

          • Daenon

            @Derrick You still cant prove that the things we have been taught about religion are true. History can still be inaccurate even if we still have original manuscripts. You cant prove one source has more accurate facts other than another. Its like saying I can prove that God is real. You cant prove that, you have to have faith that he is real. Also when have I ever started hitting on other religions?
            I’m trying to learn more about the history of Christianity as you view it, and your still hitting on my religion? I don’t actually question the Bible I know its true however there are just certain things in it that don’t tie together fully, that the Book of Mormon I find fills the holes just about perfectly.
            When I was saying the Bible could be false I was saying it as a scientist would. Since that is going to be my future profession, I was just saying that almost anything within religion cant be based off of facts. If religion was factual then what would be the point of it? If God came down and told us all he existed then what purpose would religion have?
            Also why are we here? I doubt god would send us down here so that a large portion of us don’t return to him in heaven? Thats a major reason why I believe in Mormonism. Because if I was a Dad I wouldn’t send a whole bunch of my kids to some far off world to suffer, and have a large amount not return to me unless I had a plan for them to become better beings. AKA like unto god.

          • David Murphy

            Invitation to Exaltation

            Everywhere, people are in a hurry. Jet-powered planes speed their precious human cargo across broad continents and vast oceans. Appointments must be kept, tourist attractions beckon, and friends and family await the arrival of a particular flight. Modern freeways with multiple lanes carry millions of automobiles, occupied by more millions of people, in a seemingly endless stream.

            Does this pulsating, mobile ribbon of humanity ever come to a halt? Is the helter-skelter pace of life at times punctuated with moments of meditation—even thoughts of timeless truths?

            When compared to eternal verities, the questions of daily living are really rather trivial. What shall we have for dinner? Is there a good movie playing tonight? Have you seen the television log? Where shall we go on Saturday? These questions pale into insignificance when times of crisis arise, when loved ones are wounded, when pain enters the house of good health, or when life’s candle dims and darkness threatens. Then truth and trivia are soon separated. The soul of man reaches heavenward, seeking a divine response to life’s greatest questions: Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go after we leave this life? Answers to these questions are not discovered within the covers of academia’s textbooks, by dialing information, in tossing a coin, or through random selection of multiple-choice responses. These questions transcend mortality. They embrace eternity.

            Where did we come from? This query is inevitably thought, if not spoken, by every parent or grandparent when a tiny infant utters its first cry. One marvels at the perfectly formed child. The tiny toes, the delicate fingers, the beautiful head, to say nothing of the hidden but marvelous circulatory, digestive, and nervous systems, all testify to the truth of a divine Creator.

            The Apostle Paul told the Athenians on Mars’ Hill that we are “the offspring of God.” (Acts 17:29.) Since we know that our physical bodies are the offspring of our mortal parents, we must probe for the meaning of Paul’s statement. The Lord has declared that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man.” (D&C 88:15.) It is the spirit that is the offspring of God. The writer of Hebrews refers to Him as “the Father of spirits.” (Heb. 12:9.) The spirits of all persons are literally His “begotten sons and daughters.” (D&C 76:24.)

            For our contemplation of this subject, we note that inspired poets have written moving messages and recorded transcendent thoughts. One writer described a newborn infant as “a sweet new blossom of humanity, fresh fallen from God’s own home, to flower here on earth.” (Gerald Massey.)

            William Wordsworth penned this truth:
            Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
            The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
            Hath had elsewhere its setting,
            And cometh from afar:
            Not in entire forgetfulness,
            And not in utter nakedness,
            But trailing clouds of glory do we come
            From God, who is our home:
            Heaven lies about us in our infancy!

            (“Ode on Intimations of Immortality.”)

            Parents, gazing down at a tiny infant or taking the hand of a growing child, ponder their responsibility to teach, to inspire, and to provide guidance, direction, and example. While parents ponder, children, and particularly teenagers, ask the penetrating question “Why are we here?” Usually, it is spoken silently to the soul and phrased “Why am I here?”

            How grateful we should be that a wise Creator fashioned an earth and placed us here, with a veil of forgetfulness on our previous existence, so that we might experience a time of testing, an opportunity to prove ourselves and qualify for all that God has prepared for us to receive.

            Clearly, one primary purpose of our existence upon the earth is to obtain bodies of flesh and bones. We are here to gain experience that could come only through separation from our heavenly parents. In a thousand ways, we are privileged to choose for ourselves. Here we learn from the hard taskmaster of experience. We discern between good and evil. We differentiate as to the bitter and the sweet. We learn that decisions determine destiny.

            While Paul taught the Philippians that individuals are called upon to “work out [their] own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philip. 2:12), the Master provided a guide we know as the Golden Rule: “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.” (Matt. 7:12.)

            By obedience to God’s commandments, we can qualify for that “house” spoken of by Jesus when He declared: “In my Father’s house are many mansions. … I go to prepare a place for you … that where I am, there ye may be also.” (John 14:2–3.)

            Life moves on. Youth follows childhood, and maturity comes ever so imperceptibly. From experience we learn the need for heavenly assistance as we make our way along the pathway of mortality. We treasure the inspired thought: “God is a Father; man is a brother. Life is a mission and not a career.” (President Stephen L Richards.)

            God, our Father, and Jesus Christ, our Lord, have marked the way to perfection. They beckon us to choose to follow eternal verities and to become perfect as they are perfect. (See Matt. 5:48; 3 Ne. 12:48.) The Apostle Paul likened life to a race with a clearly defined goal. To the Saints at Corinth he urged: “Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.” (1 Cor. 9:24.)

            In our zeal, let us not overlook this sage counsel: “The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong.” (Eccl. 9:11.) Actually, the prize belongs to him who endures to the end.

            When I reflect on the race of life, I remember another type of race, even from childhood days. When I was about ten, my boyfriends and I would take pocketknives in hand and, from the soft wood of a willow tree, fashion small toy boats. With a triangular-shaped cotton sail in place, each boy would launch his crude craft in the race down the relatively turbulent waters of the Provo River. We would run along the river’s bank and watch the tiny vessels sometimes bobbing violently in the swift current and at other times sailing serenely as the water deepened.

            During one such race we noted that one boat led all the rest toward the appointed finish line. Suddenly the current carried it too close to a large whirlpool, and the boat heaved to its side and capsized. Around and around it was carried, unable to make its way back into the main current. At last it came to an uneasy rest at the end of the pool, amid the flotsam and jetsam that surrounded it.

            The toy boats of childhood had no keel for stability, no rudder to provide direction, and no source of power. Inevitably their destination was downstream—the path of least resistance.

            Unlike toy boats, we have been provided divine attributes to guide our journey. We enter mortality not to float with the moving currents of life, but with the power to think, to reason, and to achieve.

            We left our heavenly home and came to earth in the purity and innocence of childhood. Our Heavenly Father did not launch us on our eternal voyage without providing the means whereby we could receive from Him guidance to ensure our safe return. Yes, I speak of prayer. I speak, too, of the whisperings from that still, small voice within each of us; and I do not overlook the holy scriptures, written by mariners who successfully sailed the seas we too must cross.

            At some period in our mortal mission, there appears the faltering step, the wan smile, the pain of sickness—even the fading of summer, the approach of autumn, the chill of winter, and the experience we call death.

            Every thoughtful person has asked himself the question best phrased by Job of old: “If a man die, shall he live again?” (Job 14:14.) Try as we may to put the question out of our thoughts, it always returns. Death comes to all mankind. It comes to the aged as they walk on faltering feet. Its summons is heard by those who have scarcely reached midway in life’s journey, and often it hushes the laughter of little children.

            But what of an existence beyond death? Is death the end of all? Such a question was asked of me by a young husband and father who lay dying. I turned to the Book of Mormon and, from the book of Alma, read to him these words:

            “Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

            “And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.” (Alma 40:11–12.)

            My young friend, through moist eyes and with an expression of profound gratitude, whispered a silent but eloquent “Thank you.”

            After the body of Jesus had lain in the tomb for three days, the spirit again entered, and the resurrected Redeemer walked forth clothed with an immortal body of flesh and bones. The answer to Job’s question—“If a man die, shall he live again?”—came when Mary and others approached the tomb and saw two men in shining garments who spoke to them: “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen.” (Luke 24:5–6.)

            Testimonies of the resurrected Lord provide comfort and understanding.

            First, from the Apostle Paul: “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. … He was buried, and … he rose again the third day. … He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve. … He was seen of above five hundred brethren at once. … He was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.” (1 Cor. 15:3–8.)

            Second, from the combined testimony of twenty-five hundred of his other sheep, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ. The resurrected Lord “spake unto them saying:

            “Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. …

            “And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:

            “Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.” (3 Ne. 11:13–14, 16–17.)

            Third, from Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon: “After the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

            “For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

            “That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” (D&C 76:22–24.)

            As the result of Christ’s victory over the grave, we shall all be resurrected. This is the redemption of the soul. Paul wrote: “There are … celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

            “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

            “So also is the resurrection of the dead.” (1 Cor. 15:40–42.)

            It is the celestial glory that we seek. It is in the presence of God that we desire to dwell. It is a forever family that we want membership in. Such blessings must be earned. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.)

            Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go after this life? No longer need these universal questions remain unanswered. Our Heavenly Father rejoices for those who keep His commandments. He is concerned also for the lost child, the tardy teenager, the wayward youth, the delinquent parent. Tenderly the Master speaks to these, and indeed to all: “Come back. Come up. Come in. Come home. Come unto me.” What eternal joy awaits when we accept His divine invitation to exaltation!

            I testify that He is a teacher of truth—but He is more than a teacher. He is the exemplar of the perfect life—but He is more than an exemplar. He is the great physician—but He is more than a physician. He is the literal Savior of the world, the Son of God, the Prince of Peace, the Holy One of Israel, even the risen Lord, who declared, “I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world. … I am the light and the life of the world.” (3 Ne. 11:10–11.) “I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.” (D&C 110:4.)

            As His witness, I testify to you that He lives!

          • Derrick

            @Daenon ” I was just saying that almost anything within religion cant be based off of facts. If religion was factual then what would be the point of it?” This has to be the scariest quote I have ever heard, do you have any idea of the implications of that statement. It pretty much means you knowingly believe in something that has no evidence to substantiate it’s truth claims. I put my faith in the fact that Jesus did exist and that he did die on the cross for my sins and did in fact raise from the dead to give me a hope of a future resurrection.
            Now please tell me the things that the Bible doesn’t tie together well that the BoM fills in?
            The truth about the Book of Mormon is that it doesn’t actually teach Mormonism, it has no uniquely Mormon doctrines (Priesthood, temple, exaltation to Godhood) but rather has a 19th Century Protestant view with a works based salvation. That grace is received by obedience rather than faith.

          • Daenon

            @Derrick If I said I beleive in Christ then went and killed thousands of people does that mean ill be able to enter heaven too? I mean I have faith in Christ don’t I? If its only faith in Christ that allows us to return to Jesus and our Heavenly Father, then whats stopping us from sinning, and whats wrong with being Mormon and doing extra?
            Ok I over exaggerated (because thats what teenagers do) by saying there is no facts. There is some facts that let being christian become logical, but its still not 100% solid evidence of God and Christs existence. Also if the bible didn’t have several things left unexplained then why are there so many different interpretations of its doctrine?
            I see it this way, take a single point on a blank peice of paper. Without a second point from that single line you can draw a line in any direction but with two points there is only one line that can be made. If you look at lines as being interpretations of things, the first point as being the bible and the second being another set of scriptures. Course thats only if the Book of Mormon is true.

          • Derrick

            Your question is actually answered in the Bible Romans 6:1 reads: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” In defending his position on salvation by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone Paul answers this question that is clear to come, and it’s funny Mormons ask the same questions. I am not saved in any way by my works, “It is God who justifies!” as Paul later says in Romans 8. The life I live after coming to saving faith will be an evidence of God’s work on my life; “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is GOD who works in you both to will and do his good pleasure.”
            Mormon doctrine doesn’t complete Biblical doctrine it contradicts it, now what other objections do you have to the consistency of the Bible?

          • Daenon

            @Derrick The bible has solid doctrine in it, there are some missing pieces though, you cant deny it. Also whats wrong with being Mormon. We just go further in what we believe than other Christian religions. We believe in the same Christ as you do… Why am I asked to repent from other religions adults when there is a good chance I live a more morally chaste life then them?

          • Derrick

            @Daenon This statement is absurd: “The bible has solid doctrine in it, there are some missing pieces though, you cant deny it.” I can deny it and you can’t actually make a solid case that there is something missing, simply stating that there is something missing doesn’t mean there is. And we do not believe in the same Christ, my Jesus is co-eternal with God the Father who is not a created being and is not the brother of Lucifer. Do you not know that pride is the sin that got Satan kicked out of heaven. “Why am I asked to repent from other religions adults when there is a good chance I live a more morally chaste life then them?” Why did Jesus go after the Pharisee’s the hardest with his ministry for their pride and self-righteousness. Mormonism is a different gospel period. And according to Paul: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9
            The most abominable sin I believe is that of preaching a false gospel because you are committing eternal murder when you deceive people into believing. The only way to heaven is the historical Jesus who has always been eternal God existing in personal community with the Father and the Holy Spirit, not the fictitious jesus that Joesph Smith preached.

          • Daenon

            @ Derrick Religion is very oppinionated apparently. If God really loved us would he send us here just so that only a small portion would really return to him? If I was a loving father I would only do something like that if it would make my children better. Where is the proof that my religion is false? Stop saying Joseph Smith is a liar and a wackjob unless if you can give me solid evidence. Otherwise I’m not going to listen to you. You tell me a lot of things that are “Fact,” but fail to give me evidence. I know I’m contradicting myself here, I’ve read two different versions of the Bible and both of them left holes places that didn’t quite make sense.
            A lot of what I say I realize, is also very opinionated. So I just want to let you know most of what I have said is based on my opinion and not what is “Fact” because I don’t want to bother trying to defend something to a closed mind. Its like trying to get a Fandroid and a mindless apple follower to come to a consensus about which software is better.

          • Derrick

            @Daenon God is not required to have mercy on anyone, and he only accounts those who are in Christ as his children. Not everyone is a child of God that is an unbiblical teaching and is supported nowhere. And I am calling Joesph Smith a liar in this context in that he twists the Word of God and attacks it’s sufficiency by saying it has holes in it, yet you have not proved in any sense that there are holes in it! The burden of proof lies with you, since I stand on thousands of years of history and heritage stating that this is the infallible Word of God and you are the one who calls that into question.
            But if you want we can talk about Joesph Smith and Brigham Young and some of the other early Prophets to show you that they made false prophecies and taught many things you yourself do not support nor believe.

          • Daenon

            @ Derrick Let me clarify more about the Bible I don’t question its legitimacy in what it talks about. I believe it to be the true word of god however its interpreted. I do think that the Bible doesn’t answer some questions I’ve had in life that the Book of Mormon fills in perfectly. Sorry if you feel like I was questioning the legitimacy of the Bible. If that were the case I wouldn’t be studying from it right now at 6 in the morning every day of the week.
            Also if God only accounts people that follow Christ as his children then what about the poor souls in third world countries that don’t even get to hear about God? What happens to them? Me and you believe in the same God we just have different opinions on how God works. As for the claims on my prophets send them at me I’m all ears and ill receive them with an open opinion.
            Lastly this whole debate makes me laugh cause from the many historical documentaries of Christ’s life (many of which ive seen were made from Churches other than my own,) that all the arguments used against my church are only slightly varying from the persecutions that were made against Christ. I have seen modern revelation through the Book of Mormon, your claims about it being lies without evidence is complete air compared to the revelation and things that are coming to pass that the Book of Mormon foretold. By all means prove me wrong.

          • Derrick

            @Daenon in response to your first question about what happens to someone who hasn’t heard about Jesus, the Bible does give us an answer. Romans 1:18-23
            “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.”
            Theologians call this general revelation, every person is held without excuse and God “will have mercy on whom he will have mercy” if you say that God is unfair, unloving or unjust for saving one person than another you make yourself to be blasphemer. I believe that the Bible is clear that there is no second chance, “And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,” (Hebrews 9:27). You die and then you are judged it’s that simple, there is no waiting period in which people get another chance.
            In regards to my statements about Joesph Smith and Brigham Young here are some quotes for you to deal with:
            “I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left ” -Joesph Smith(History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394). False prophecy..
            “God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet ” -Joesph Smith(History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409). Boasted that he did more than Jesus, in regards to the Church.
            “President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion–our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189). Jesus did not show up in 1891…
            “Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house… 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.” (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.) Mormons were driven out by 1833 so they were not gathered in accordance with this prophecy. The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.
            “Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations,” (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3). He actually gets it right that it would start with South Carolina, but if you knew your history you’d be able to see that it would be an easy guess given the political climate at that time, but he is wrong when says that it would involve “all nations.”
            “For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree,” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87) This clearly hasn’t happened yet, and that prophesy was given on 12/27/1832 and it’s 1/28/2012, to me that’s a lot of days. You do the math. haha
            These are mere samples of all the heresies and false prophecies that Joesph Smith made, what does the Bible say concerning false prophets?
            “But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, orf who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). You know there is something interesting about this verse, God promises death to those who prophecy wrongly in his name and what happened to Joesph Smith. Did he die of old age? No he died trying to jump out a window at Carthage prison after he had just exchanged shots with the incoming mob. Are you a martyr if you shoot back, did Jesus shoot back?
            Now Daenon I want you to really consider everything I just said or quoted, this is not a “who’s right or who’s wrong” but this is about eternal future here. Mormonism is false… I came to this conclusion when I was 19 years old preparing for a mission. Having been the president of every quorum I was in attending all 4 years of seminary and having a temple recommend. I was very devout, yet I love the truth and any hope that is based on lies is only a delusion. After I left Mormonism I fell into deep atheism, would debate anyone who talked about God or religion until I was 22 years old and God radically saved me. And now by his grace I am pursuing becoming a Senior Pastor. You’ve been worshiping a shadow Daenon, a shadow of what the True God is. And today you’ve been shown grace with an invitation to enter into kingdom and receive the GIFT of salvation that is not of works but of faith. We have different God’s and different gospels Daenon, are you willing to bet your eternity that you are on the right side? I certainly hope you truly consider this, I don’t usually take so much time to write to people about Mormonism but I see a little bit of myself when I was 14 in you. And how I wish someone would have told me the truth earlier. May God richly bless you. Shalom, Derrick

        • Daenon

          @ Derrick, maybe to you I’m being ignorant to say this, but I follow a religion for what it is not what it was. Even god has changed his mind in the past, clearly the Bible days were different from these days. Also I don’t really have time right now to think of all the instances of “false prophecies” that Joseph gave on a very deep level… (life’s getting busy >_>).
          So ill just post the main reasons that I believe in this church. 1: I have seen many cases of people that have left the church, and their life totally falls apart and they become a wreck, and even though they do more “fun stuff” they always end up with the same thing. A hangover xD
          2: As I said before I dont think a loving parent would make us just for us to go live with him and be happy and in a state of no evolution for all eternity. There is nothing more that scares me than to be stuck in a state like that. Even if I’m in complete ecstasy the entire time. Maybe this is because I want to become better than I am now. That is why I believe that god has a plan for us to become perfect beings. Maybe its just plain greed that I believe this, but I believe it none the less.

          3: The word of wisdom, to some this is a nuisance but I prefer to eat healthy whenever I can. I absolutely hate caffeine because your body begins to depend on caffeine to stay awake. Me I wake up at 5 in the morning (something you must understand is pretty difficult for a growing teenager,) and go till 10 without a single supplement. I only rarely have sugar too. As for alcohol and drugs I don’t like the high feeling, and being only loosely in control of my actions. I would like to stay as healthy as I can be, ohh I also swim competitively which is very very exhausting (but I love it!)
          4: Modern day revelation, even if its sometimes unclear and false I don’t think that god would have just said “humans don’t deserve to have revelation anymore so I will take it off the earth.”
          5: People like to throw rocks at things that shine, this is obvious. Don’t know why, but when someone tells me something is completely false without recognizing its good I think of Jesus, and how he was persecuted. Strengthening my belief.
          6: Lastly I think that my church stands for great things, and that we tend to actually live according to our teachings, I mean were not perfect, but I know way to many fakers and the fakers count in the LDS church is much smaller. I’m not saying any other churches are bad or even false I believe all other Christian religions to be true, just lacking a few things that the LDS church offers.
          So ill follow my “retarded, brainwashed, [email protected]##$%@ up, idiotic, hypocritic, racist senses” and stick with the LDS church, thank you by the way . The best way for one to exercise their faith is to bend it. I do however hope that I’m right so that we both may see each other in heaven one day. Because I believe that you would except that second chance if it is given to you. This is all assuming I’m correct however. I still think we believe in the same god and Jesus. by the way, just different interpretations of how they came to be. Sincerely: A brainwashed bigot.

          • Daenon

            Aww danget sorry for grammar errors… >_>

          • Derrick

            @Daenon “Also I don’t really have time right now to think of all the instances of “false prophecies” that Joseph gave on a very deep level… (life’s getting busy >_>).” This statement right here just shows that you aren’t truly serious about the truth, you ask me to give some solid evidence and which I do provide you all of the sudden back down. I think there are many things that can be good about mormonism, but doesn’t make up in any way for the fact that it is a false religion about a false god.
            Jesus stood for the truth, and he didn’t just believe things because they sound nice or sound good. And if someone presumes to speak on behalf of God and the thing doesn’t come true. Guess what he wasn’t actually a prophet.
            Not all Christians are as you think, I do my best everyday to try and keep the commandments which is “love God, love people.” Not because I need to in order to be in the good graces of God, but because that is what I honestly desire to do and has nothing to do with my salvation.
            The Bible answers why we don’t have prophets anymore too: “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.” Hebrews 1:1-2
            God has spoken to us through Jesus, and now we don’t go about looking for a prophet for all the prophets testified of Jesus’ coming and now that he has come our job is to spread the good news of his salvation to all the world.
            Mormonism has changed, if you would have been around at the beginning you would have been appalled by the teachings of the prophets and the only reason you like it now is because it has been made nicer on the ears. The only truth about God is the truth that has remained the same forever, for God is unchanging and is from everlasting to everlasting. There is not such thing as new theology and that is why I reject Mormonism.
            I left the Church, my life didn’t fall apart, I grew in godliness and in keeping the commandments, I am pursuing becoming a Pastor, to be honest I have never even had drugs or alcohol in my life, but all these things mean nothing unless one has the true Jesus Christ, not the made up one by Joesph Smith. I believe I have that Jesus Christ and I am willing to stake my eternity on that because I was willing to do the hard work to figure out the truth.
            Are you willing to bet your eternity because of what “seems” to be good and the way. Or do you have the courage to be a man and fight for the truth and wrestle with the hard things in life. I truly hope you actually read my previous comment, as you did what most Mormons do when confronted with the truth is you hid from actually addressing what I said and told me why you believe in the church.
            May God reveal the truth to you by his grace. Shalom, Derrick.

    • steve

      Remember, money is not the value. The surplus property is. Parents teach children to share its only people who say its “cash”.

    • Mormon

      The money doesn’t go to the bishop. It’s a great thing to have tithing, it goes t people who need it. Like a poor family who needs money for rent because thay can’t make it this month, they would receive a blessing and the Bishop would help them. I’m Mormon I would know.

      • Mormon Too!

        Tithing isn’t used for helping the needy. That’s fast offerings. Tithing is used to build more things like meeting houses, seminary buildings, temples and other places that help us to learn more of the gospel and worship in accordance to it’s principles.

        • spencer

          they both go into the same fund.

      • DW

        Yes, and to support BYU’s footbool team!

        • DW

          I meant “football.”

    • DW

      I meant” football.”

    • miamaid

      Mormons are not the only religion that pays tithing. and tithing goes to a good cause, during haiti

    • SuperMormonGirl

      FYI: you are being very sacrilegious… what if I said that the Pope was a wierdo? I respect the Pope, and think that he is a great historical figure, but so is the Dali Lama and Buddha..

  • JwJwBean

    I wish I had more time to really read these. I will have to remember to come back to this later. Nice job Mystern. I was surprised to not find the mormon undergarments on the list.

    • person

      like you would know about those, smart one bet you wouldn’t even be allowed to have some if you were accepted by the mormon church you idiot just because you aren’t capable of having or keeping a commitment to anything or anyone

      • spencer

        seriously this is how you make our church look??? the whole church is about agency and forgiveness, don’t judge some one you have never and probably will never meet.

        • April

          you should probably brush up on your history before you slander people you obviously have no knowledge about.

  • JwJwBean

    Oh and it was interesting to read it is "hot drinks". I always thought it was coffee and the caffine. No wonder my moron, I mean mormon, friend wouldn't even drink herbal tea.

    • katie

      you are allowed herbal tea and hot chocolate and i would know im morman!

      • jhjh

        we aren't allowed any tea.

        • juke

          We can have herbal tea as long as it doesn't have "tea" as one of the ingredients. Many herbal teas do not have "tea" as an ingredient.

          • matt

            It has to specifically be Black tea. the type of tea you can use to carry out an abortion (yup, its so bad for you that if you are pregnant and drink a lot of it it will kill your baby). Teas that have black tea in them are
            Black tea
            Earl grey tea
            Green tea
            iced tea
            a few others

            teas that do not
            ANY herbal tea. if it says herbal on the box you can drink it. If you want to make tea out of grass you can, your an idiot, but you can.

          • greenjelly

            infusions:) I like mint tea, and camomile:) and obviously hot chocolate, Yum! the best hot chocolate i’ve ever tasted was in Rome. It was so nice it nearly blew my head off:) Tea and coffee were the only hot drinks at the time the law was given and are still the most widespread hot drinks. some things just weren’t around in the 1800’s and so were clarified later. social drugs for example. tea and coffee happen to be very addictive and their wide use makes them troublesome. it’s about looking after the body and being sensible. caffinated drinks are a personal preference. No one can argue with smoking. the negative effects of which were only discovers in the 1970’s. putting something about that in the rules was well ahead of it’s time. spookily ahead. Alcohol put’s the biggest burden on health services in the UK and US and comes with many social problems. There is some focus on nutrution: eat moderately, don’t eat too much meat, eat plenty of cereals and pulses, etc, all of which is mainstream thinking. so there’s nothing unsual there. Get a good night’s sleep, have a balanced life style. in this highly stressful modern life we live in it’s easy to turn to chemical releif which can easily get out of control and lead to trouble. the “Word of wisdom”, the mormon law of health, is fundamently about getting some good wholesome food in you, a good rest, doing a decent days work, having a balanced life, getting excersise, chilling out, and not stressing or getting angry lol. Mormons and non mormons alike get hung up with ” mormons can’t do this” and ” mormons can’t do that” but they could if they wanted to. And, you know, paint it how you will the “word of wisdom” is proven. Mormons may get a little bit up tight about it (normal neurotic parental reactional behavoiur! lol) but it’s up to the individual. No one stopped me eating a whole bag of m&m’s and now I feel sick!! damn you! lol. It goes with the rest of the top ten, no one would follow it if it was simply weird, at least, not in any great numbers. I’ll put it out there: as a brit, a mormon, a scientist and with a family background of thick irish catholic, I see my fair share of weird! lol. If you want bizzare look at nature and natural history documentaries. bizarre doesn’t make it wrong:). if you got this far thank you for reading. thank you to the author of the bizarre top ten:) I enjoyed it. chill out dudes! x

          • Mormon Too!

            The word of wisdom was created by God to provide us with guidelines for keeping out bodies healthy. I will repeat: it is only a guide. It gives us the information to help us decide for ourselves if some substance is against the word of wisdom, even if it is not specifically stated in the doctrine (such as caffeine or certain kinds of tea etc.) If you feel that something is against the word of wisdom then you can consider that as personal revelation from god that it is. If you feel that something is not against the word of wisdom and it is not specifically stated in the doctrine, you can also consider that as personal revelation.

          • Its all silly

            Matt – really? Black tea gives you abortions? It really is a wonder that the British population didn’t die out since its introduction! And why would Jesus have turned water into wine if it wasn’t ok to drink it? I have done a lot of reading lately as well and don’t understand why people defend the entire doctrine hook, line and sinker. There are a ton of flaws in the Book of Mormon pertaining to livestock and crops allegedly produced in Central America at the time the ‘plates’ were written. Notably horses which clearly were not introduced until the spaniards invaded. There are issues with the language it was written in – reformed Egyptian?? That’s a made-up language unverified by anyone not of the morman faith. Also very handy that said plates were “given back to an Angel” so that no-one could verify their authenticity. We all want to cling to something, and it’s great that Mormans have a lot of good family values and are kind people. But can you not have those qualities and not believe in the ramblings of Joseph Smith – and then Brigham Young? There’s faith…and then there’s blind faith. While mormons have changed their stance on polygamy and race, the book itself still talks about the scourge of black skin. And then there’s its opinions on homosexuality. Live and let live. Personally I’m not religious at all because the bible contradicts itself. If there is a life-force on this planet it is either caused by the collective conscience of all people, or else by the earth itself as a functioning organism.

          • Brad

            Ya us mormons can’t have tea or coffee, but we are still pretty freaking happy if you ask me :)

      • Miles

        We’re talking about Mormons here, though.

    • greenjelly

      lol, your mormon friend was a bit over cautious I think. It’s true, some mormons are like that- too many probably. Your friend may have thought that berries infusion would turn them into a pile of dust. too be honest if they don’t have very good judgement it’s probably best they keep their distance from hot liquids:) cool pic!

    • Mormon

      Just to clear things up (according to my understanding), The word of wisdom does have some specifics such as tobacco and tea, but the rest is up to the Saint. If you believe something is against the word of wisdom but it is not specifically stated (such as caffeine) then in a way you can say that it is. You have to be smart and judge for yourself. The word of wisdom was given to us by God to help us keep our bodies healthy and pure. It cannot state every single bad substance there is but it is enough to let you make good judgement for yourself.

      • Sam

        people are far from perfect wherever you look. we cannot judge a group of people because of one or however many members of that person. we as human beings need to be better than that, more christ like and look past eachothers faults and forgive. god said that he will forgive who he will, but for us it is required to forgive all, no matter what view you look at it. there are jerks everywhere, i agree. but that is not what they are taught to be like, i don’t think anyone is taught to be that way and need to make changes. that’s what religion is about, learning to make changes for the better.

    • LDS/Mormon

      its is only coffee, alcohol, and tea. Herbal tea is okay, it dosen’t use tea leaves
      D&C 89

  • stevenh

    hey Mystern, best be careful….you may be bad-mouthing our next president!

    • JOE ROSSON

      If Romley was elected I would move to Canada.

      • STB

        How fascinating. You apparently didn't move to Canada when Clinton was elected or Obama both of whom are embarrassments to the Christian religions that they profess. How exactly do you think a President Romney would adversely impact you that these other "men of character" haven't?

        • FriendlyDude

          Firstly let me say that neither Clinton nor Obama belong to a religion that believe African Americans were/are a curse against caucasian people.Speaking as a African American, I never use my beliefs as a weapon against other people.Religion should not be used as a form of hatred.I’m sure most Mormons were brought into their religion by their parents and as psychology teaches us, politics and religion are beliefs held 90% of the time not because we made that choice but because the influence a parent had on us.If my parents had raised me in the Mormon faith and I was taught to hate Blacks, I would leave the Mormon church.I think the Mormon faith is a cult just like the scientologist. But having said that,if you have no problem being associated with a group that as recently as 1978 held the doctrine of hatred against African Americans, then have at it. I would not vote for Mitt Romney not because he is a Mormon but because as politicians go,he is the biggest liar I have ever witness in my many years of watching and learning about politics. Romney lies about things that if he had told the truth about the facts,he would not look worse at all.He lies because he doesn’t think its wrong to lie. He is a horrible person to represent the Mormon community because people think Mormons are just like Mitt.I don’t trust him at all I think most in America feel the same way based on the polls.The strangeness of the Mormon religion does not help his image and at the same time his deeds do harm to how most people view the Mormon community. It’s a double edge sword. I would never treat any person with bias and I certainly will not accept any teaching that support the notion that black,white,blue or brown people are born a certain way and thus we must view them with disdain. It is certainly to belong to a religion that had/hold ancients beliefs, but to belong to a faith that tells its members to fear and hate any ethnicity as recently as the early 1980’s has to be seen for what it is,confused,misinformed,misguided and not legitimate.I will say this, if people want to bay at the moon and call it a religion,help your self just don’t spend your energy trying to destroy the lives of innocent people.Considering the hatred taught to Mormons by it’s church leaders, I wonder just how many black people in America have been mudered by Mormon,how many black young under aged girls have been raped by Mormons,and how many dehumanizing acts commited by mormons against African Americans through out the history of our nation? Probley more than we’ll ever know.After all, it’s only the Mormon religion that wrote in their specific bible that its permisible to view Blacks as a curse,thus any actions carried out on blacks would be forgiven. Mormons are taught to fight evil,and Mormons believe African Americans to be evil even to this day.I will be spending a good part of my time knocking on doors to help re-elect president Obama because Romney would be bad for America in more ways than anyone could imagine!

      • matt

        Way to be a prejudiced bigot. let me guess you like obama? in 10 years when this is a third world country you let me know how that worked out for you. anyways I hate Romney too, and im a mormon. Hes not a mormon, hes an impostor and should be excommunicated from the church. He caused a state form of ObamaCare to be passed while he was in office in Massacheussets, long before Obama ever passed it. However, he is a financial GENIUS and managed to take Massacheussets from a 9 billion dollar budget deficit, to a surplus in only a few years. Of course, now because of his healthcare bill they will go right back into debt where they came from…so it kinda doesnt matter.

        • Austin

          Wow I haven’t even read that many posts and I can already tell that most people on here don’t know what they’re talking about. First, how are we (Mormons) racist? We fully accept people no matter what race they are. In fact, it’s our goal to spread the church to all the world. If that sounds racist to anyone, then what isn’t racist? And all people who are bagging on the concept of tithing probably don’t fully understand it. Tithing goes towards buildings and missionaries mainly. They DO NOT fund any BYU athletic program. Only the actual university. And why the heck should Mitt Romney be excommunicated? It’s people like you who make crazy and wild accusations like this that make people think Mormons are jerks. Lighten up people.

          • Lacey

            Dude, I totally like you right now, that’s awesome.

          • sophie

            Yay! someone who knows what they are talking about! im mormon and i could not be happier i think it’s kind of funny how people say silly things about us. :)

      • person

        it might make the world a better place if youdid move, and the world would definately be a better place when Romney becomes president next electon, i am only thirteen and i already know what the correct pollitical and religous views are

        • Bob

          It’s obvious you’re thirteen, because theres no such thing as a “correct” pollitical or religious view. Pollitical views are a matter of opinion, one isn’t inheritly better than the other. And religion has zero basis in fact and no evidence whatsoever supporting it, so if there would be a “correct” religious view, you’d have to pick at random if you’d wanna have it. And to Matt, you’re an idiot. It’s already obvious to everyone why, so i won’t bother to explain.

        • Biosci

          Listen. Shut up and stop acting like your “helping” the church. The church is about respecting others and their view on the world and religious views. All your doing is giving the church a bad reputation of rudeness and mockery towards other’s beliefs. And really NO ONE CARES that your only 13. I’m a member of the church and I’ve actually pondered what the churches values are and why we practice them. Obviously you haven’t done any thinking about what you say to others about the church. It’s people like you that make me worried if the churches true message is getting through to people.

        • Mormonsarecool

          There is no such thing as a correct political or religious view. I’m 13 and I know that.

        • Atheist

          you’re thirteen? you have no idea what you are talking about. Mormonism is a cult started by the Free Masons. Have you been to the temple? Do you know anything about evolution or geology or the bible? The bible is a hoax and a joke. Any religion based on the bible is false. Mormonism included.

          • dont you DARE say that!

          • claude

            First the bible states that woman was made for man. Birth pain is a curse to wemon for eves sin. Both men and woman are equial in gods sight. If i was going to study a religion i would pick one that can be proven,tested and tried. living a good life doesnt mean you will be saved. It maens u will die a good sinner. The bible tells us their is one god,one faith,one baptism. Not hundreds,so it would be to your advantage to study. Dont get caught up in mans fals religions. Gods word was sealed up thousand of years ago. If you add to or take away your name is taken out of the book of life. One of two books you will be judged by. This is in revelations third verse from the end. Corneliou was a good man but had to be saved. All of this is said to make a point gods people fail him because of lack of knowledge. Check Your Knowledge is it true or just your belief. God dont care what You Beleave . It His way or No Way.

          • Evan

            Free Masons….really….okay. Proof? Thats what I thought. Get correct information before you post it next time.

          • atheist too

            i’m with you atheist, if i was FORCED to follow a region i’ll quickly pick buddhism lol

          • Jared

            God still loves you!!!

        • Austin

          Be careful man. Don’t affiliate our religion with a political ideology, because the church has made multiple statements talking about how we do not endorse any political party or political figure. Correct political views are very subjective. Although I do like Romney a lot and probably have a lot of the same political views as you, I can’t say that my political views are “correct”.

      • Evan

        the only “correct” religious view is that a “nation without God, is no nation at all.”

        • Miles

          No, no it is not.

        • Brody

          So why is it that the USA went out of their way to separate church and state? Religion is fine on a personal level, but tends to be used for misinformation and political means on a national and international scale. I find it disturbing that people would have a problem with real, material nations not wanting to be associated with your imaginary friend.

  • heavybison

    I stayed in Utah for a year and i could have sworn there was something about polygamy being part of things.
    Reason enuf for me to convert, if you ask me :-D

    • Renaee

      The lds religion does not practice polygamy.

    • Tony

      it's actually the FLDS you might want to join if you're looking for multiple wives, but that's not the true Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is the one true Church.

    • STB

      I am member of the LDS church. Polygamy was abolished not long after it began as a practice in Utah. Youre crazy if you think you could handle more than one wife!

      • gonabi1

        Mormons still believe in polygamy in the afterlife right?? And mormons did’nt stop practicing polygamy because of a “revelation” from God. It was a condition of statehood. Funny how the religion changes “doctrine” when convinient for them! Enter your comment here.

        • RTC

          Polygamy is a very risky topic to discuss because not many people know the current situation or the past and ancient situations either. Joseph Smith, in his establishment of the Kingdom of God upon this Earth, established the practice of polygamy because it was required for the fulfillment of the Kingdom. The practice did not have to last until the end of the Earth however. The practice needed only to be established. When persecution and assassinations affected the LDS church for their beliefs, they stopped the practice. So even though it was established by the hand of God, it was later taken away by the same hand BECAUSE of the current situation facing the members and practicers of the religion.
          When people falsely accuse “Mormons” (quotations only because it’s not the actual name and preference of the church) of practicing polygamy here on this earth, they usually are referring to the FLDS church, which now isn’t even called that anymore. Since they were not allowed to have relations with the LDS church in name, they became the Community of Christ. They claim to believe and still fulfill all the ordinances of LDS church, but they never got rid of the practice of polygamy because they believe Joseph Smith to be the true prophet, when in reality, as one prophet passes onto the afterlife, they are eventually succeeded by another worthy man of God.
          As well, people need to stop being critical of the “Mormon” church and its first prophet Joseph Smith. People say he lusted after power and stuff of the sort, but if he didn’t honestly believe his vision and the Book of Mormon to be true, why would he, as a 14 year old boy and throughout the rest of his life, endure persecution that killed members of his family and left him to relocate every so often, hide from angry mobs and be tortured himself (which is the case in the tar-and-feathering of him one night which also led to the death of his daughter).
          People these days need to have more common sense and not be so critical of others’ beliefs. Some people may be right and some people may be wrong, but the beauty of this Earth is that we are given free agency and we can choose to do what we want, adding that we also get whatever consequences come because of our actions.

          Oh, and sorry if that doesn’t all pertain to the comment I’m responding to. I just got carried away

          • Lonnie G McComas

            Get your facts right, The community of Christ church doesn’t believe in polygamy,never has ! The F.L.D.S church was a breakoff branch of the Mormon church NOT THE COMMUNITY OF CHRIST CHURCH.

        • Austin

          Polygamy was never an official practice of the church. Revelation was given to select individuals to practice it. Our history with polygamy is very misunderstood by other people.

          • Derrick

            That is an outright lie propagated by Gordon B. Hinkley. Polygamy was in fact an official doctrine of the Church, it was in the Doctrine and Covenants. Also Mormons still believe polygamy will be practiced in the afterlife. Bearing false witness is a sin, you better work on denying yourself of all ungodliness otherwise Christ’s grace is no longer sufficient for you.

        • person

          no

        • Jared

          No, it wasn’t revelation.
          The twelfth article of faith states, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
          Our countries law is our law.

    • Madiet

      Mormons are no longer polygamist! So don’t be spreading that around! We do not believe in that anymore!

      • pinslayer

        Oh so Mormons used to believe in polygomy but no longer do….Hebrews says Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever….follow the bible and add nothing to it and you will find the one true Jesus (who is God in the flesh)

        • Evan

          Amen! The Word of God does not change nor does it falter. It stays the same! Amen Brother!

          • MikeM

            God is indeed the same yesterday, today, and forever. His revelatory process is no exception. However, the world is ever-changing, and God has revealed His will to those listening for it amongst the dynamics of life; first through the Bible and prophets of old, then through more recent prophets. If God is the same, why would He stop revealing His will?

        • Mormonalso

          Several Prophets in the Bible had more than one wife and others were forbidden the practice. That would suggest that the Principle of polygamy is true and has never changed. But the practice of it has been given and taken away from his people according to the will of God. That is why we believe in continued/ongoing revelation from a living Prophet in our day.

        • Josie

          Some questions will never be answered in this lifetime.. If every question was to be answered, there would no longer be a need for faith on Earth.

        • Ronty

          Hey :) I’m just a little curious to your last statement. Wouldn’t my some healthy discussion ^_^ Now when you say Jesus and God are the same people can I revert you back to Matthew where Jesus was speaking on kingdoms.

          Matthew 12:26
          25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

          How can Jesus (God you say) come down on earth and his kingdom in heaven still stand? Thank you in advance for replying!

          • Realchristian

            God is everywhere, he’s GOD. So he’s pretty powerful lol.

          • P

            Jesus is God, in the flesh, and God and The Holy Spirit. This is the Holy Trinity. Existing simultaneously in different ways as Three sides of God.

        • Mormon Too!

          if you have access to lds scriptures look up D&C section 132 read verse one and then skip to verse thirty four. God (the speaker) affirms that he is the same yesterday today and forever and explains why some of the Hebrew prophets of the old testament had multiple wives. its an interesting read.

          • ukustyle

            so when the lord was baptized by john he fell upon himself in a form of a dove then opened the heavens and said to him self that this is my beloved son and witnessed him self ?so why dose the lord continually pray to him self in the scriptures you dont make sense mate God the father,Jesus the son and the Holy Ghost the witness of both. Bro they are singular in beings but same in purpose

        • Mormon Too!

          Doctrine and Covenants 132. Read it and it explains some of your problems with our doctrine pretty well. Specifically read verse one and then move on to the thirties.

    • Atheist

      Brigam Young (the second “prophet”) said that the only way to get into the Celestial kingdom is by having multiple wives.

      “Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).

      Here’s the link
      http://carm.org/brigham-young-quotes

      • kjb

        thats ridiculous, no wonder your atheist if you believe everything you read on the internet
        are you excited that when you die thats the end of you??? haha what a way to live thinking at any moment you can die and not be able live again

        • Brody

          What I find funny is the driving fear of death and the unknowable that drive you people to these cults.

  • Mystern

    heavybison: Polygamy hasn't been practiced for over 100 years. However, Mormons do believe that polygamy will exist in heaven.

    • Ellie901

      Mystern: you are incorrect about that, no where in Mormon doctrine is it taught that there will be polygamy in heaven.

      • Megan

        Go back and read D&C 156. The temple ceremony makes it quite clear that men will be allowed multiple wives once they reach the celestial kingdom.

        • Megan

          Sorry, D&C 132. Brain fart.

          • Lace

            I think that particular scripture might be taken out of contexts. It might be referring to those men that have been sealed to more than one woman while on earth, but that remains a mystery of God as well.

          • spencer

            yes it will be in the kingdoms. all that is bound on earth will be bond in heaven. why would we seal man and wives together if they are separated, those that where sealed in the time we did practice plural wives will all be together in the end

        • MoMohater

          So I guess you’re saying you get married again after you die?

  • Mystern

    SB: Thanks, though I wasn't aware I was being biased.

    9000: You must remember that Joseph Smith only had a 3rd grade education.

    • LDS/Mormon

      only b/c he lived on a farm and anything higher wasn’t necessary.

  • bucslim

    SHHHHH – the boss is mormon, I'm at work, so I'm whispering my post. So tippy toe around my post will ya? I'll refer to him as Dude.

    Dude has 12 weird kids. Dude's weird great grandfather hustled over the hill with Brigham Young. Dude's weird great grandfather had 5 weird wives, each with a separate weird house and 35 weird kids. Dude wears weird 'undies.' Dude talks about Navoo with weird misty eyes. (Navoo = weird mormon Mecca) Dude gave me weird mormon literature at work. Dude constantly argues about weird Mormon doctrine to Catholic co-worker on roadies. Dude has tried to indoctrinate me with weird doctrines. Dude has weird reservations about caffienated drinks but won't hestitate to stuff a half dozen glazed doughnuts down his weird pie-hole.

    Dude is weird.

    • **2300**

      Caffiene has the ability to make your heart go on over-drive,
      thus ending your life.
      Think about it.

      • true, but caffeine is pretty self-regulating. if you get near an overdose, you're body sends tons of signals telling you to stop. people who ingest TOO MUCH caffeine will often get jittery and irritable, and hate it(as they are sober and right-minded), and will generally stop ingesting more.
        it's been shown that it's healthy to get the equivalent of 2-3 cups of coffee's worth of caffeine in the day, as it naturally speeds up your immune system and anti-oxidant properties. In short, it helps fight off colds, shorten the duration of pain, and contributes to preventing cancer.

        • ebcow

          self regulating??? how many times have you heard the term I need my coffee first thing in the morning, or I can't function without a caffeine hit… It all leads to the fact that this is a habit forming drug that may be beneficial in small doses but is harmful when abused.

      • Dude’s other co-worker

        wait, and half a dozen donuts stuffed down your pie hole won’t affect anything in your body??? Dude is weird…

    • Tiffany

      That's really mean!!!!!! I hope your boss Reads this….

    • jessica

      thats so funny!!!!

    • caitlinfox

      And hey dude…you sound extra weird. A little type A personality ehh!

    • Lulu Bell

      Morman’s are hypocrites. Haven’t know a one that wasn’t!!!!!!

    • Jonathan

      Dear bucslim, I’m mormon…and I think you are hilarious! While it sounds as though Dude may be a kindred spirit, reading your post made staying up this late worth it. Cheers!

    • someguy

      Dude sounds hella weird. However, he is not representative of the entire religion. Not directing this at you, but it seems like a lot of these accusation and assumptions are based on one or two bad experiences people have had. I stopped going to church when I was 16 because of a bad experience I had. I’m 22 now, working on a half sleeve, I’ve drank, smoked, done drugs, the like. I’ve seen both sides of the coin, and there are as many ass hat Mormons as there are any other religion. Most of the weird Mormons you meet are as weird to you as they are to other members.

  • Everyone says Mormon baptisms for the dead are weird, I always thought that the marriage by proxy for the dead was stranger.

    • baptisms for the dead aren't just weird, they're downright disrespectful and patronizing.

      • ebco

        again it is giving the deceased the option, it is not forcing them or chaining them to the baptism. Should not everyone get the option for baptism. Also interesting to note: 1 Corinthians 15:29

        • Ravyn

          but why would you defile someone like that? i personally find it offensive and a pretty freaky to do a ceremony for someone who isn’t even flesh and blood anymore. let them rest in peace :/ if they didn’t want anything to do with the religion while they were alive, what makes you so sure they would want anything to do with it in in the afterlife?

          • spencer

            all i can say is what about the people who never got an option. why baptize for the dead if the dead rise not at all. we would not do it if they didn’t have a second chance.

          • Derrick

            In Luke chapter 16 there is a story about Lazarus and a Rich man, in the story there are two very distinct places it describes of where you go once one dies. The Rich man cries out: And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ He was obviously in a place called Hell in Christian Theology. Abraham then goes on to explain how there is now no more hope for him: But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
            NONE may cross, Abraham didn’t mention that he’d have to wait until someone did a proxy-baptism for him on Earth. This then therefore goes in the face of LDS Theology. There are two places you go when you die; Heaven and Hell. So then what on earth could Corinthians 15 been talking about as far as being baptized on someone’s behalf? Let us take a look at the actual verse.
            “Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?”
            1 Corinthians 15:29
            There are several theories that have been raised to explain this one without implementing a new ritual. My personal belief is one that must be understood within the context of the whole section, wherein it talks about the necessity of Jesus’ resurrection. If Jesus never got up from the grave then everything we believe is false and Christianity has fallen, so why on earth get baptized on behalf of a dead God? Why would Paul preach about the necessity of baptism for salvation in this passage and then never mention it again?
            The truth is baptism is not needed for salvation only genuine faith, therefore it would be useless to baptize a dead person who didn’t believe in there life. Mormons like to take a single passage and make huge doctrine out of it even if it goes in the face of all the other doctrine taught in the Bible, and is therefore by definition a Cult. Read your Bibles folks, Jesus loves you and wants you to know his full glory!!!!

      • marcuspenn

        Dear, Ricky J Hamilton (hope I spelled that right):
        Please elucidate on your post – at length. Cheers

        • ukustyle

          so i believe you have read the songs of solomon and all the talk of porn in that text what has that got to do with the lord or anything about salvation how do you no the bible is true it was written in hebrew and ancient egyptian not English who gave any one the right to translate that text a king of england who you dont even pay homage to your the cult bringing all your thoughts on to people for you to oppress wake up mate to single out one religion you single your self out and thats not God like” if they are for me they are not against me “who are you to judge.Judge your self before you anyone else judge.

    • l dean

      There is a method to their madness of baptism by proxy. Once baptized, you are a Mormon and they can count you as a member of their flock. So when they say their are 12 million mormons in the world, they are counting all the Jews, Methodists, Catholics etc. that they have baptized their death. I am a descendant of Captain John Twitty Baker that led a wagon train of 120 people going to CA in 1857. The Mormons, disguised as Indians, murdered and robbed the wagon train. They called it "Blood Atonement" and then they had the balls, excuse me, to baptized by proxy everyone they had just murdered into the Mormon Church. It took an act of Congress for our family to have Captain Baker and his family removed from the Mormon church and "unbaptized." Another outrageous fact . . . they have baptized by proxy all the Jews murdered in WWII. So those Jews are now members of the Mormon church. They are a scary bunch of people.

      • FoxMarcello

        okay, first off, the "blood atonement" is a lie made up by anti-Mormons in order to make people fear the Mormons. Also, just because you were baptized does NOT make you a Mormon. You have to have a real belief in our doctrine AND a desire for eternal glory to be truly Mormon. Baptism for the dead is nothing but opening a door. Whether people enter through it is THEIR choice and their choice ALONE. And when we say there are 12 million Mormons in the world, we're ONLY counting those who are currently living, in ALL nations around the world.

        • jared

          it’s actually just the baptized members of the church, but I know what you’re saying.
          And remember, God loves you!!!

      • Biosci

        Your a member of the church if you are baptized into the church. You aren’t a member if you were baptized through another faith. The 12 million mormons that you refer to are actually current members of the church. Please get your facts straight before making false accusations on the internet. It’s just disrespectful to Mormons out there.

  • downhighway61

    i really didn't find any of this that weird. like number 8, isn't that basically the same idea as heaven and hell?
    only men being allowed to be priests? still not that weird.
    the only ones that made me go "hmmm…. kinda weird…"
    were 6 and 7.
    (and i'm not a morman, i had never even met a morman until maybe 3 years ago.)

    • yeppers

      Actually number 8 isn't like heaven and hell. Think of it more of a waiting room. One room is for good people and one is for bad. You don't stay there for all eternity so that's why I say waiting room. Actual heaven and hell comes after judgement day.

    • Tiffany

      I know right, it's not that Wierd…

      • MoMohater

        yeah it is weird

  • phunniemee

    Joseph Smith was called a prophet (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
    He started the Mormon religion (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)

    He found the stones and golden plates (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
    Even though nobody else ever saw them (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)

    And that's how the Book of Mormon was written (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)

    Surely I'm not the only one who's seen that?

    • elzie

      He worked so hard to make a name for himself too bad he didn't live to see it like he thought he could from the 'Spirit World"

    • MHoffa

      No one ever witnessed or saw the plates? What do you call the testimonies of the witnesses that are well published? Making unfounded statements (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)

      • South Park. Satire. People may have seen some plates, but no one beyond Joseph Smith was allowed to "read" their true language.
        It's not like how a secular historian today could find an ancient manuscript that was an "original" gospel then take a picture and put it on the internet and millions could "witness" it. There would be at least thousands of people out there who could eventually translate the words.

    • ebco

      yea I have south park…. that's where I get ALL of my information on religion, politics and real life…. Its such a truthful and informative service… we are so lucky to have that program….

      • FoxMarcello

        are you INSANE!?!? South Park is one of the most disrespectful and offensive shows out there, no matter WHAT religion you are!!!

        • Java

          That’s why it’s best to be NO religion so you won’t get your fucking, pansy-ass feelings hurt. Good grief. These debates go on long and, yet, non-religion as a choice is growing faster than anything. Churches- of all faiths, are reporting loss of members every week. It’s a growing thing that people are actually opening their minds and not being brainwashed.

          Say you’re a Christian. Now, think if you were born in, say, India. You may be raised Buddhist. And you would probably defend that just as much as you’re defending your religion today.

          Religions are TAUGHT. It’s like a comfort thought. There’s a god gene. The brain shows different effects and such when it’s thinking about religion – similar to brain activity that’s on drugs. Children have imaginary friends; unfortunately, the imaginary friends carry on into adult hood.

          Religion is a very old custom. It’s fear based. Most things of the past are fear based. That’s how people were controlled. Believe in me or something bad will happen- even though you’re a good person.

          Oh, and don’t quote things from your book. Remember- we don’t follow some of them and some of them have been altered over time.

      • jared

        I’m not sure if this is true, but I believe he is being sarcastic.

        • kingoftexas

          I used to work at the University of Utah. The writers of South Park used to go to the UofU. If ebco is being truthful about getting his religious information from South Park then he knows the “Mormons” are only ones not going to hell. lol This is from a South Park episode not what the members believe. But the episode was funny http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/152270/aban

    • Lanna

      Joseph Smith was just a man, probably w/ a mental illness

      • proudmormon

        how do youknow that? he was a great and honest man and i can’t wait to met him.

        • Realchristian

          You’ll only see him if u go to Hell . He is a lair who teaches false doctrine and false testament.

        • zsm

          Joseph Smith had 3 wives that were 14. Didn’t they just put a guy in prison for life for the same reason.

          • Breanna

            Uh no he didn’t. There are a lot of rumors and false things about the LDS church. But I have learned for myself that it is what I believe to be true and I think other churches have truth to them and that if you are a “bad person” your not necisarrily going to hell. We believe in an outer darkness that only a select few will go to, I.e. If you deny Christ in the afterlife and other things. I’m not trying to convert anyone but it does hurt to see all of the things people say that aren’t true. And trust me I just moved to Utah and it isn’t my favorite place, all I hope is thAt fellow LDS members will not act like they are better than everyone else because that is certainly not what we believe.

      • ukustyle

        it take 1 to no 1

      • Jojo’s circus

        I have always believed that Joey Smith was an opium addict. Seems like a good excuse to all his “visions”.

    • April

      Clearly you have never opened a book of mormon. It has on the very front page the testimony of the testimony of the three witnesses, and below that the testimony of the eight witnesses. All of them saw the plates. Enough to sign their names.

  • hgaratie

    Great list Mystern. WEIRD about the coffee though. I mean I understand tobacco and alchohol cause that's bad for you, but Coffee???

    • ebco
    • STB

      Would it surprise you to know that over 150 years ago, alcohol and tobacco were supposed to be just fine for you too? The Word of Wisdom is a subset of a revelation called the Law of Health. In it Joseph Smith speaks of excercise, eating fruits and grains, and meat sparingly. Pretty "strange" thinking for his time. Maybe he had some better sources than just science.

    • lindsay

      coffee is bad for you, GO MORMONS!

    • trooper009

      no alcohol is also good, in fact, it’s man’s greatest invention….

  • MarkJ

    I agree with Miss Destiny on that part about taking any religion too literally. I mean, look whats going on in the middle east! I've traveled all over those parts and and seen it first hand. Some of the most humble and nice people i met were Muslim. Then you look at 'ol Osama and how extreme he takes the religion bit. I know i'll probably get some backlash for this comment but I say that theres nothing wrong with (most) religion, it's the people that spoil it by misconstruing(sp?) teachings.

    • Wylie

      exactly! thank you :]

      • emma white

        i love being mormon it is great. you should be one every one.

  • DarkWolf

    [deleted]

  • ElleMNOP

    As a tangent to number 3, one thing I have never understood is why religious people use the fact that you won't go to "heaven" and be "close to god" after you die as a natural reason you should accept their faith as your own. As an agnostic, I'd rather not have to be surrounded by religites when I die…long live the "terrestrial kingdom" where carnal law rules! I spend enough time being downtrodden by religiosity here on earth to have to put up with it in the afterlife!

    • Mrs. P

      Truth be told it sucks that there are people out there that say those things, but the true message of God is that he wants us to be happy. He didn't make rules to punish us he made them to protect us. He wants everyone to be close to him because that is why we were created. If you made lets say a new species wouldn't you want them to be happy? That is if you really cared about them.

      P.S I am not a mormon and yes they have come to my house 3 times lol but they are so nice I can't tell them to get out lol. I came here to get amo to tell them I don't want to be converted.

    • yeppers

      ElleMNOP: Mormons don't believe that you will go to hell if you don't except their faith. Mormons believe that if you don't except their faith that you will have the chance to learn the truth after you die in the spiritual realm.

      • Jules

        But, once you are dead, you do not get a “do over”. You will be judged according to your deeds in life. If you weren’t baptised in life, someone getting baptised for you will not help you, you are DEAD.

        Also, just what do they do in the temple that they don’t want anyone they don’t trust to know? When Christ died the veil of the temple was rent, there is no more “holy of holies”. We are supposed to let our light shine. Jesus does not hide himself from us, why are they hiding what they are doing? I was told only “righteous mormons” were allowed in their temples. Who judges who is righteous? Only God judges who is, not any man.

        • madiet

          Only righteous people are allowed to enter the lord’s house (temple) We aren’t saying your not rightous, we are just mormons and we believe we were sent down here to gain a body and learn and become a member of the church. Once when you die, you will have a choice whether to except the gospel or not and If you choose to become a member, that’s what we do in the temple. We get baptized for the dead and we do other things too.

        • mhaerdel

          Temples are buildings that have been dedicated to the Lord and to house the performance of sacred ordinances. To enter the temple, any member may meet with their bishop to declare if they are “worthy” (keeping the commandments) and receive a recommend to enter in. This is done to preserve that sacred spirit in the temple and keep it separate from “the world”. So nothing in the temple is “secret”, but sacred, which is an important distinction. In fact, before a temple is dedicated, anyone from the public may walk through it during the open-house times. In fact we invite all to come to the temple–it just takes some steps. If you are open to the message of the restoration of the gospel and receive a testimony of its truth, you can be baptized, and eventually enter the temple. I myself love going to the temple and feel edified every time I do.

    • Mormonsarecooldu

      Technically, it’s the TELESTIAL kingdom. Now then, Mormons are probably the sweetest people I have ever met, and none of them have ever condemned me for not being part of their religion. and Jules, if someone gets baptized for you, you get out of spirit prison. when the second coming happens, having someone baptized for you doesn’t help, true, but you do get out of spirit prison.

  • MarkJ

    I have an idea. How about everyone just be nice, smile and wave at each other and call it a day

    • narina

      agreed

      • LDS guy

        I smile and wave at people of all faiths. I have friends of all faiths. I’m not boasting my tolerance, I just don’t know why people have to spend all their time online attacking someone else’s beliefs or stating how weird it is. I think it’s funny how someone, in the name of “truth” spends all day speaking out against “Powerful and Oppressive” religions. Can’t they see that by doing this they are under the power of the same people they are attacking.
        I agree…Smile and wave and just be nice and everyone will get along much better.

        • Liv4Jesus

          No no no no no! yes be polite, yes smile, but accept other people religions? No. You see, you are not doing anyone a favor by just smiling them by. This people are being deceived, if you block that from your mind, how will you lead them to the truth? The only truth comes in the Bible. Yes the Bible. Thats where you find forgiveness of a Loving Heavenly Father, you find The Creator Yahweh, Salvation of your soul through Jesus Christ, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit that leads you to live a consecrated life in Christ and puts a fire in your heart for the Salvation of humanity. So please keep smiling but wake up, Satan is deceiving in the millions, maybe you, your family and friends!!! That should be a very good reason why you should be on the internet and speak the truth, and help someone, for if you bring someone to Jesus Christ in repentance you cover a lifetime of committed sins. For The Lord Jesus washes them and cleans them as white as snow. So please change your perspective and to something for the Holy Kingdom of God. God Bless you. :)

  • Mystern

    There’s a typo in number 6. It says

    7 Behold my Beloved Son, bin whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

    it should say

    7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

  • sue

    Interesting list as usual,Jfrater.I agree with DarkWolf.It’s weird,but nothing beats scientology

    • Kbxpress

      First of all… I’m totally amazed this thread has lasted 2 yrs…. Amazing… Second it’s been a real experience… Now I have to digest it all… More to come

  • Mystern

    JwJwBean: I wanted to find things that weren’t already on another list. Perhaps a couple notable omissions would be Undergarments and Baptisms for the Dead.

    • elzie

      And don't the marriage for the dead spouse who didn't want to be mormon and became one after he died

      • ebcow

        no, It is giving them the option as all people in the world are given the option. They can choose to accept or deny that 'marriage'. They are not forced into becoming a Mormon…

  • Mystern

    JwJwBean: Actually herbal tea is considered fine by official church leaders. They’re just not allowed to have anything with tea leaves in it.

  • heavybison

    #7: Who’s the dude with that angelic expression?

    • ellie901

      His name Is Thomas S. Monson, and he is the current president/prophet of the Mormon church. He's the equivalent of the Catholic Pope to the Mormons.

    • fastrunner

      i dont know but hes funny looking

      • Abjay

        I'm sure you are too dude/ dudette… whatever you are

  • Mystern

    Stevenh: Mit Romney hasn’t got a chance.

    Heavybison: The pic in number 7 is of Thomas S Monson. He will shortly be named the new LDS prophet.

  • Bob

    No forgiveness for murder? That means Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are out.

    Too bad about St Paul, too. . .

    • l dean

      There is one exception to murder and it is called "Blood Atonement." If they believe you are a sinner, they can murder you in order to save you – see Mountain Meadow Massacre of September 11, 1857. But in truth, Blood Atonement is more like an excuse to destroy anyone that Mormons feel threatened by, or in the case of the Mountain Meadow Massacre – it's okay to murder "Gentiles" if you are going to rob them to build the Mormon Temples. There are many instances of Mormons disguised as Indians, attacking and robbing wagon trains moving west. I'm an ancestor of the captain of the Mountain Meadow Massacre, so I can claim credibility in my knowledge of Mormons and their pretense of Christianity. They are not Christians. Muslims are closer to Christianity than Mormons are.

      • STB

        This is a difficult subject because what happened is virtually indefensible. The act was horrific and nothing less. What is defensible is the church in this matter. Just because local church leaders and members committed this terrible act does not mean they acted on inspiration or direction from the Presidency of the Church. Church members from various Protestant and Baptist congregations have been involved in murderous lynchings and similar acts of atrocity but that does not implicate their entire religion.

        Furthermore, being decended from one of the perpetrators of this crime does not give you perfect insight. I have two grandfathers that served in WWII but I don't have perfect knowledge of the acts they committed or their motivations for doing so and I knew them in life. You did not know your ancestor while alive and must depend on writings at best.

        Finally, I take strong exception to your final statement that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are not Christians. We pray to Christ, we speak of Christ, and we desire to be like Christ. HE is ultimately the head of the church. I don't know what you know about the Muslim faith but this statement about the LDS in incredible to me.

      • Shawn

        last time i checked, anyone who believes in christ is christian. the fact that you compared us to muslims and saying they are more christian than us lds people is very hypocritical as muslims do believe in jesus, however not in the same context that christians AND lds people do.

        • John

          Mulims believe in Christ and consider him to be a prophet.

        • Realchristian

          Actually almost every religion believes in jesus.
          Christian- son of god
          Mormon- prophet
          Muslim – prophet
          Jews and other religions- believe he was a regular
          Man just like us.

          Since there’s so much evidence that he was a man all must incorporate him some how.
          ( even though he’s really the son of god and part
          Of the trinity)

          • Derrick

            You really should get a little more learned on the subject of Mormons before you go calling them out. If they see you not understanding their doctrine they will simply ignore you. Mormons believe that Jesus is quite literally the son of God and brother of Lucifer(Satan) and that he is not co-eternal with God the Father. He was not merely a prophet in their theology.

      • Abjay

        Excuse you! We are SO Christian! You have no knowledge about us if you think Muslims are closer to Christianity than we are! We believe in God the Eternal Father and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost!!

        • sperow

          Mormon is a Fake religion that was made up by a power hungry man who wanted to have multiple wives and kill whomever he desired. Lds is a cult and eventually will be disproved as a religion all together. What a joke it is.

          • Mormonsarecool

            You hypocrite! If Mormon is a “fake religion”, then you could say the same for Christianity, Judaism, or Muslim. Mormon is a very real religion that should be treated with the same amount of respect as any.

          • Mormonsarecool

            You hypocrite! If Mormon is fake, then Christianity is fake, Islam is fake, Judaism is fake! Truth is, science tries to disprove all religions, but it doesn’t because the people following the religions won’t allow it too. So why don’t you, sperow, shut your trap before more stupid things start pouring out of it, hmmm…?

          • Evan

            And this is why there are many different types of religion and arguments, people cant swallow their pride and can find a common ground… yall are both in the body of Christ yet we resent each other. Come on….

            Proverbs 15:18
            “A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel.”

            God Bless, i say this out of Love that Jesus Christ has instilled in me.

          • Realchristian

            Well it is untrustworthy. Joseph smith just twisted his own religion to make it more appealing unlike
            The REAL church started by Jesus Christ which is always stable.

            Bless you :)

      • relshanzlickl

        to I Dean….I was wondering if you could give me more examples of “instances of Mormons disguised as Indians, attacking and robbing wagon trains moving west.” I am doing a paper on it and would love some ideas! thanks! you rule

      • girlygirl

        You mean you are a descendant, not an ancestor. Those in the past would have been your ancestors….

      • ChristianCowGirl

        First and foremost I am not a Mormon but I am a God fearing Christian. Raised in the United Methodist Church. Secondly every religoin is stained with a bloody past at some point or another. All you have to do is read the Bible and you will see that Christians and Jews alike have gone to battle to defend thier holy grounds or their religious views. So to make that point about he Mormons is like saying that the Jews were wrong for fighting to return into Jerusalem and Isreal the land that was given to them by God all mighty. To say that Muslims are more of a Christian then Mormons are. Is as wrong as saying that Hilter was correct in trying to wipe out the Jews. I can say that having known several Mormons and having studied all religons that they also believe what the Bible says that the Jews are Gods Chosen people. Unlike the Muslims who in the Koran it clearly states that the Jews are the enemy and that they are to be destroyed. Besides that I want to make one more correction Muslims DO NOT believe that Jesus was the Messiah nor do they believe that he was the Son of God. So I pray for all of you and I will gladly state facts that can be historically backed up and Biblically. I pray that you are touched by the holy spirt and recieve guidance and wisedom to know the truth for yourself. In Jesus name. Amen

        • Muslim

          It is incredibly ignorant to say ” in the Koran it clearly states that the Jews are the enemy and that they are to be destroyed.” It’s people like you who take quotes from the Koran (or from other ridiculous paraphrased quotes), completely out of context, and add some bullshit to make it seem like saying people deserve to be destroyed is in any way acceptable in Islam. I am a Muslim who respects both Christianity, Mormonism, and Judaism, but I lack respect for you for making such an incredible statement. Islam is a religion entirely based on peace (and no, terrorism and killing innocent people is in no way acceptable in Islam) and I would appreciate it if people like you would refrain from making such ignorant comments without understanding the context and background of our religion. Thanks.

          • KayJay

            First I would like to say that this is definitely not in a malicious spirit; it’s an honest question.

            If Islam is entirely based on peace, then why is the Shari’a (might be butchering the spelling, sorry!) law so unforgiving? And why are there ‘holy wars’ (sorry again, I can’t remember the term)? Thank you in advance for responding. And again, this is seriously me being polite. I’ve never had the chance to ask these questions, and I would love that to be explained.

          • Liv4Jesus

            I don’t know from what country you practice your religion, in the middle east being Christian equals death. Your god Allah and your muslim beliefs have murdered countless Christians, peaceful religion? give me a break! How about the Iraqi Christian families in the upper north villages in Iraq that were murdered and their villages burned to the ground? All false religions are controlled by Satan, and his prime suspects are Christians, God will soon have His revenge, and Satan is a defeated enemy, but is an enemy that is out to deceive, kill and destroy for he knows his time is coming where he shall suffer the worst punishment in the fiery pits of hell. Repent for your sins, ask God Yahweh into your heart and accept the invitation of Jesus Christ His son that came into this world to teach us the way to heaven and open the way so that if we believe He died on the cross for our sins, rose on the third day, we may be forgiven, live a Christ like life and we may have an eternal life in Heaven. Look up Disciples of Christ in your area, look for a church and start reading the bible, I pray God will open your eyes so you may see the truth, and save your soul, and help others that are also deceived. God Bless you, in the love of Christ I send you this….sincerely….Cynthia. :)

        • Mike

          Muslims believe Jesus is the messiah , the don’t believe he claimed divinity they believe salvation is only from god and that only god can forgive sins

  • SocialButterfly

    Mystern: great list!! Very informative without being too biased.

    stevenh: Mit Romney won’t be president… There is no way that the protestant republicans would allow that.

    heavybison: angelic is not the word I would use to describe that expression… creeper might work though.

    • narina

      funny

  • Verily I say unto thee that this all sounds like it was written by a 12 year old.

    I’ve actually read the book of mormon. Well most of it, I stopped when I felt myself getting dumber.

    • Blahh

      May I ask what religion you are?

      • Mormonsarecooldu

        Yeah, really!

  • Those crazy mormons.

    • rey

      mormons are not crazy and we onlybeleve in one god… not multuple gods

      • spencer

        we believe there is one god the rules our earth, but multiple gods that govern their own creations.

  • DiscHuker

    mystern: lol, i thought the whole point of this list was to be biased :)

  • SocialButterfly

    Mystern: That’s what I meant. :)

  • teacherman

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!

    Read “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer.

    You owe it to yourself to check it out. Moving and thought provoking look at modern day zealous Mormons. He is an amazing author!

  • Joss

    Mormons, Scientology, Jehovah’s Witness…

    There’s some weird stuff out there.

  • JLo

    bucslim: Funny comment. LOL

    Dude.

  • MarkJ

    Bucslim: Your post cracked me and everyone else here at work up. (shhhhh, I’m also “working”). Despite that fact of being LDS myself, i find so things kinda odd. After digging around some there seem to be lots of things that are kinda “forgotten” by our leaders. Honestly though, I can’t say I’ve ever heard of the Bizarre Belief #1.

    • ebco

      mate your not LDS… not active anyway…

    • FoxMarcello

      you haven't heard the Plan of Happiness?

    • Marcia

      MarkJ, owooo…

      Correct me please, you have never hear about Belief #1?! Where do you live?
      I am from Brazil, and my sister (unfortunately, by brainwash), married a LDS boy from Salt Lake City (Utah), I am a person that gives change to everybody.
      Didn't know about this "religion" (because for me its more a Club, people can lose them membership if do something wrong – like NOT giving ALL the money to the "Church", whatever; so I asked for this boy and his family that are a very know family by the city and the clerk to tell me about it.
      I couldn't stop myself to TRY to understand, as many said here, I was getting dumber!
      The kept saying its "1, 2, 3 and 4" that's it. Then they would change, noooo, "2" its really bad. Then, later, noooo, "2" its really good.
      This is a joke and a place to make money and be mean to other people.
      Any of the people who wrote here ever saw "8: The Mormon Proposition"?
      I want to ask to everybody, what do you think 22 millions dollars would do to the World? We, with good heart, would think, let's help our country, lets help health care, kids education, Africa and Aids… So many things. But no, LDS used this money and MORE to make millions and millions of people that weren't doing anything bad to anybody miserables!
      So, MarkL, when you come to me and say you have never heard about "Multiple Worlds and Multiple Gods"its another joke to me.
      How come a girl from Brazil like me knows that and you as a member doesn't. Weird huh? As usual from LDS members.

      I don't want to fight, I don't want anything bad. But I can't handle unfairness.

      And all I ask for LDS is, do whatever You want and think its right, but don't you EVER go to others people business.
      Don't come to my door knocking and saying you are the best and I am wrong.
      Respect, that all!

      • spencer

        well i respect your opinions thought i don’t agree with it, but the lds tithing fund has become a corporation and is the biggest charity in the world, we use it for people who are willing to spread some happiness, not just throw it at government owned facilities that will waste it in a heart beat.

  • Mystern

    downhighway61: The reason number 8 is odd is because the vast majority of christians believe that God lived with angels in heaven and Mormons believe that we were those angels. Also, spirit prison/paradise is kind of like heaven/hell except that you can repent after you die and go from prison to paradise.

    MarkJ: there are tons of things the church glosses over right at first. One of the interesting things about the Mormon religion though, is that the more questions you ask the more answers you get. The Mormon religion has an answer for everything, even if some of those answers are pretty bizarre.

    • elzie

      Oh yea I found that out myself. They will have you believing them or confused by the time they are finished I think they are from another planet…..

    • STB

      You are right. The LDS church makes an effort to explain why we're here and what we believe we need to do to get back – not sure what's wrong with that.

      I also not sure whay Spirit Prison/Paradaise seems so strange. If one professes to be a non-LDS Christian, please explain to me what happens to our spirits when we die before the resurrection? The Bible clearly states that we won't be judged until that time. If we aren't judged, how can we go to Heaven or Hell? Spirit Prison/Paradaise are like a prelimary judgement but not Heaven and Hell. We're pretty clear on what those are.

    • Realchristian

      NO NO NO in the bible it clearly states that angels
      Are created beings that will live forever and are a certain number of them. So we may have been in heaven but were not angels.
      Every time a bell rings a angel DOESNT get it’s wings they already have them.

      Thx

      • LDS/Mormon

        Also angles not only look like us, so does God. We were made in his image.

  • bucslim

    Look, I’m mostly a gregarious kinda guy. I sorta get ruffled when someone pokes fun at the goofy things I believe, so if any of you take offense to what I’ve posted, I’m truly sorry. I’ve just been around my boss for so long I find some of the things he believes to be off the radar. Maybe because he’s the boss is part of the reason I’ve dubbed him the weird Dude.

    He has invited our staff to his house for some kind of goofy “Game Night” with the rest of his kooky clan. I declined. Overall he’s a decent guy, but when religion comes up, trust me, I get some creepy feeling that my boss is a good candidate for a tranq gun takedown.

    • Marcia

      Man, I wanna be your friend! Hahah!

  • Mystern

    phunniemee: Mormons claim that a number of other people saw the plates and the stones.

  • phunniemee

    Mystern: That’s not in the South Park song. =)

  • Mystern

    oh. I’ve seen very few episodes of South Park. Maybe you could find a link to it?

  • Fili

    Here’s the South Park episode:
    http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/712/All-about-the-Mormons?.html

    There’s also the whole thing about how Native Americans got “red skin” as a punishment, or something.

    And the temple garments (aka, magic underwear): http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/images/mormon-temple-garments.jpg

    and the baptism of the dead: http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/practices/baptism_for_the_dead.htm

    The list goes on and on …

  • downhighway61

    well… isn’t being able to repent in prison a much better thought than having to spend eternity there? it’s just not that odd to me. believing that jesus and god are the same thing is weird to me. and not going to heaven if you don’t accept jesus., even if you’ve never heard of him.

    i dunno… maybe i’ll make a bizare judaism list.

    • john 10:30 states I and my father are one. God is the mind, Jesus is the blood, and the holy spirit is 1 being.

      • oh my goodness…

        At Deane Haught: They don't mean literally. They are separate beings but they work together as one.

        • eyes wide open

          I am a Christian,and feel so much sadness for mormons,because they are so convinced of their faith when in actuality its a cult…..there is only one word of GOD and thats the Bible! Colossians2:8-10

          • tru

            Enter your comment here. how is the bible the word of god when its a proven fact it was written by many men over many years. Anybody who thinks that the religion they follow is the only true religion is an asshole point blank. God does not have the flaws of man but yet the old testament god is very different from the new testament god. God doesnt need to learn or change since he is the source of all knowlegde. there should be no difference between the god of the old and new testaments… and why is there even a religion based on christ when christ himself broke away from organized religion ( he was jewish) because it was corrupt and we honor him by making a religion after him? remember jesus didnt make christianity men did that after he died. religion only seperates people and creates a place where discrimination can live. You may tolerate over religions but also feel that if they are not part of your religion they are going to hell or cant be as good as you because god only approves of the people who follow your religion.. what a joke stop giving god our human flaws. thats view point of a human not an all knowing god

  • downhighway61

    hgaratir- caffeine is addictive, can cause headaches and overall jitters. i know because i’m addicted :(

  • phunniemee

    hgaratie: Unless you’re already an avid coffee drinker, try picking up a five-cup-a-day (standard for a lot of people I know) habit for a week and tell me if you still think coffee is good for you. haha

  • Hehe, oooh organized religion. How strange…

    Although, Orson Scott Card, one of my favorite scifi authors, is mormon. They can at least function normally in society, which is not the case for many, much stranger religions, although this one has some nutty rules and beliefs too. Good list, Mystern.

  • Mystern

    hgaratie: Yep. Coffee is the devil! The vast majority of Mormons will explain it as “Staying away from addictive substances”. Why they don’t stay away from prescription painkillers and sugar is what baffles me.

    Fili: Thanks for the links. In reference to the Native American thing, Mormons believe that Native American descended from the family of Lehi (see number 6). The family split up and the evil ones were cursed with dark(er) skin. You must also remember that Mormons believe the mark placed upon Cain was dark skin i.e. black people. That’s why black people were not allowed to have the priesthood for over 150 years after the church started.

    • Mrs P

      So what made them change their mind all of a sudden?

      • It happened right around the time of the civil rights movement. There was political pressure, and the church leaders realized that they had to change, or there would be problems. It's that simple.

        • FoxMarcello

          The real reason Blacks weren't allowed to hold the Priesthood was that until the civil rights movement, the world wasn't ready to deal with a people who accepted Blacks as equals on top of everything else

  • Lyric

    I’d like to see a second top ten on this issue. Married to an ex-mormon gives me a laugh.

  • R Brown

    Ok my friend, you have subtly made fun of Christians, and now Mormons, I usually avoid placs that monopolize on religion but you claim to be fair and open minded so I’d like to see a ten list (or more) on the beliefs of wiccans, druids etc. I know there are religions that worship damned elephants, friggin cows and a damn FAT MAN with a swimming pool for a belly button!

    • Megan

      well buddhists dont worship the classic buddha you see when you walk into a chinese resteraunt. thats just a made up westernized versian.
      not that it matters, cause i get your point. haha

  • R Brown: absolutely! I have already done bizarre religious practices that involved non-Christian religions, but I am keen to do one of neo-pagans. We could start with the claim that Wicca is an ancient religion (when it is actually a modern invention). Speaking of Buddha – there have been some bizarre practices in that religion – self mummification for a start (that is one of the other lists here already).

  • MarkJ

    Mystern: In reference to the “forgotten” things i was talking about, check out the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Pretty sketch stuff. But every religion has their secrets. I say that the whole debate on the golden plates and Joseph Smith finding them can go up there with all the crooked Popes in the Catholic religion. Or the 144K some odd people going to Heaven according to the JWs. All I’m trying to say is that every major religion has its issues and no ones perfect.

  • A well-written list that didn’t seem to really poke fun at these beliefs, just state them. Kudos on that! As weird as Mormons are, I really haven’t met any mean ones in my day, the ones in my experience have been really nice people! My best friend’s family is Mormon and I used to go to servies and church functions with them all the time. Her mom teaches Sunday School and is involved in some of the activities the church runs.

    We used to go to Super Saturday dances for young men and women, and they always made this delicious punch with sherbet in it, and it’s where I had my first slow dance!

    I used to love meeting all of the missionaries from all over, my friend’s family used to have them over for dinner once a week and they’d often let me sit in and eat with them. It was interesting hearing about their experiences not only where they lived, but where they’d been on their missions! Really great people, they started giving me the discussions, but my mom stepped in and thought I should wait until I was an adult to choose a religion. I’m kind of glad she did that, all due respect to the Mormons, but since then I’ve kind of decided I don’t much like the idea of organized religion and would prefer to practice my beliefs alone.

    • narina

      agreed. A lot of Mormons are the sweetest people ever. I do not see anything wrong with their beliefs. Some people just cannot accept the Truth, plus some of the things written on here just seem scandalist and stupid. people just like to make fun of and improvise things they don't agree with.

    • Realchristian

      Join A Methedist church.

  • Mystern

    MarkJ: Ah. I misinterpreted your comment. Yes there are things early in the LDS church that are more than a little sketchy. Just as an example try looking into lawsuits filed against Joseph Smith which were dropped because he claimed “freedom of religious practices”

    Miss Destiny: Mormons are generally nice to people who aren’t Mormon.

    • Renaee

      I have to say,
      You seem to have a judgement in your mind of how we are and our lives,
      What religion teaches you to judge others and belittle their beliefs with false information.
      Especially number one on your list.
      I do not form my opinions of people based on their religion.
      You seem to have a lot of anger towards mormons.
      We teach valuable skills, and ethical teachings to our members.
      Maybe you should come to our church sometime.
      It would definately help the negative opinion be relieved.

  • the hound

    Mormons: God’s one liner.

  • Top 11 Bizzare Mormom belief: Men can have multiple wives if they want. Those tards believe adultery is fine.

    • deanna

      woww no we don't but way to be rooted in old stereotypes..

      • eyes wide open

        everything mormons base their religon on is through Joseph F Smith…so if you don't beleive in polygamy today why do you still beleive in his version of the Bible,his version of Christ,his version of God?? or should i say Gods??

    • Swimmer

      I'm sorry but that's too far. I am lds and adultery is most definatly NOT fine. It's gross. And no one has multiple wives in my religion. You are thinking of the Flds. Which has no association to my church.

      • going4truth

        The FLDS are those who really believe Joseph Smith's claim of talking for God… JS said God said, in D&C132:4 "For behold, I reveal to you a new and EVERLASTING covenant, and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory." (And later in D&C132 the justification for taking many wives is given.) The LDS decided they could reject that covenant with a later revelation, but the FLDS didn't feel as free to go against what they felt had been God's directive given through Joseph Smith. Me… I KNOW Joseph didn't talk for God. It was Joseph putting words supposedly in God's mouth, but God didn't say them. The LDS&FLDS alike make of God a changeable being… one that doesn't know his own mind, that requires a "prophet" to keep up with current whims.

        • Courtney

          If you actually bothered to read that section you quoted then you would have come to the part where it states that the covenant he was speaking of pertained to ETERNAL MARRIAGES and SEALINGS through the holy ghost. The section condemns plural marriages and states that in the cases of Abraham and David they had more than one wife because God COMMANDED them to. This passage in no way cites doctrines that we should be engaged in polygamy.

      • eyes wide open

        but if you do enough good works her on earth you can get into the Celestial Kindom and there you get to join all your spirit wives and maybe become a God yourselve! ……that is a contradiction to the true Bible.

    • yeppers

      Maxx_the_Slash: We don't have multiple wives we don't think adultery is fine. And anyone who DOES have a problem with how we USE to be then you guys are all hypocrites because the people in the BIBLE practiced polygamy.

      • Realchristian

        No they didn’t !! Jesus never married and was born of the VIRGIN Mary .

        • LDSMissionary

          Real christian, you are an idiot and obviously have never read the Bible before. It is a fact that several prophets in the Bible did practice polygamy, Abraham, David, Solomon, just to name a few. When commanded by God, polygamy is a holy practice, if it is inside the bounds that the Lord has set. But when men who are commanded to practice polygamy dont follow what the Lord has said, in the case of David for example, who lusted after a woman who God had not given him, another mans wife, that is when polygamy becomes the abomination that people associate it with. To say that they did not practice polygamy in biblical times is absolutely false, and you show that you are quite stupid and ignorant in what you know. Before you get on a thread and say things, maybe you should do a little background search on the matter before hand. It could save you a lot of trouble and embarrassment. Idiot. And by the way, the LDS religion does not have a stand point on whether Jesus was married or not. We simply dont have enough information to say whether he does or not. However, many members personally believe that he was married seeing how celestial marriage is the everlasting covenant that is essential to exaltation. But the church has never given a formal statement on the matter. All beliefs are personal. Just to let you and everyone else on here know.

          • LDSMissionary

            Oh and eyeswideopen, You are an idiot too. You say that all that Mormons believe is based on what Joseph F. Smith has said. That is false. True, Joseph F. Smith was a prophet of the church, but it was Joseph Smith, Junior, Who we base a lot of our religion on. He was the first prophet called in these days and he was the one who received revelation from the Lord, Jesus Christ. And the reason we dont practice polygamy is because God has put a stop to that practice. And just to let you know, it was not every member of our church who practiced polygamy, it was only a few righteous men, who the Lord had commanded to have more than one wife, who actually practiced it. People say that we are wrong because “You believe that God can change his mind.” Well, if you believe in the bible as well, then you believe the same thing, because we know that he has commanded righteous men, throughout the history of the world, to practice polygamy and at other times he has put an end to the practice. If you refute this, then you refute the bible. Also, if God is “unchangeable,” why would he say “thou shall not kill” but at other times command “thou shalt utterly destroy.” That seems to me like a God who can and does change his mind as he sees fit for his children. It looks to me like the LDS religion is the only religion who seems to understand the way that God works. It must be because they are the only true church on the earth and the only one with a living prophet who can communicate with Him.

          • David Murphy

            Hey LDSMissionary this isn’t Wednesday… what are you doing on the web? :)

          • Derrick

            @LDSMissionary So you like to go around calling people idiots? You’re not only ignorant of the Bible but you’re also ignorant of what your religion teaches.

            You said “God commanded polygamy” and that is simply wrong… God ALLOWED polygamy to happen and in the NT era for those who wish to be overseers or leaders in the Church they must be the “husband of one wife” a total prohibition of polygamy for those who would be leaders yet it is the leaders of Mormonism who had the most amount of wives.

            Jesus also teaches that there is no marriage in the afterlife: “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” Matthew 22:30

            To state that it is necessary in order to reach “exaltation” which means become a God as well is absolutely heretical and counter-biblical on that account and on the account of Isaiah 43:10–“Before me no god was formed,
            nor shall there be any after me.”
            No god before, and no god after period. That’s about as monotheistic a statement that you will find and Mormonism is about the most polytheistic religion you will find since you believe that there is an eternal regression of Gods and this cycle of Godhood progresses forever. Simply saying “Only one God for us” is not sufficient since that is not what the Bible infers in any way. There is no other God apart from Yahweh.

            God is Immutable or uhchanging and here is an example of this from your own Canon: “By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;” D&C 20:17

            Not to mention all the evidence for God being unchanging from the Bible which most Mormons hold to be corrupted let’s take a look at this verse from the D&C. In order for your position to hold up with God being able to change himself you must affirm the fallibility of your own Scriptures, or call God a liar(or at least Joesph Smith). This verse declares that God is not only unchanging but he is UNCHANGEABLE which means that God doesn’t even the ability to change.

            And if you want to deny D&C then you need to throw out Moroni 8:18 as well: “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”

            Why don’t you believe your own Scripture? I support Moroni 8:18 why don’t you? God doesn’t change his laws, because he laws are based on his character which is immutable. And anytime God allows something that seemingly contradicts his command that is entirely different and is an ethical question. Every person stands condemned before God and the wages of sin is death, therefore God had every right to use the nation of Israel as his weapon of judgement for the wicked nations. His intent was just and righteous and did not make God a liar, your view does and it is blasphemous.

            The truth is it’s hard to discern what Mormons actually believe because if you read the BoM you won’t find it there, if you read the D&C you find all sorts of things that contradict and if you hear their prophets…well they don’t prophesy about much and continue to contradict doctrine given from their Canon as well from former prophets. You don’t have any clue who God is because you simply don’t know him…. because you won’t find him in your church. And it’s best you repent LDSMissionary of your uncharitable actions towards the poster or His grace won’t be sufficient for you.

          • David Murphy

            derrick Hi, you know that in Isaiah 43:10 the person is Jesus or Jehovah not God. When he states “there is no God before me or after me” he is making a point that we are redeemed by him. We are owned by him. The only to the father is thru Him.

            Read Isiah 43:01 – 43:10

          • Derrick

            @David Murphy Once again you Mormons show a lack of knowledge of the Hebrew Language, labeling Jesus as Jehovah which is a poor rendering of the tetragrammaton name for God it is best rendered Yahweh or YHVH. And that God the Father’s name is elohim, the problem you run into is when it says that YHVH is elohim, so if you’re going to interpret the Bible that way then Jesus and God the Father are the same person….

          • David Murphy

            Hi, I thought you were a christian I didn’t know you were from Israel. You must be conservative not hasidic or you wouldn’t have used the name Elohim. YHWH as with most “names” is a title probably “It is he who creates” from Genesis. Or may be “I am”. Jehovah itself is a modern, inaccurate Germanic-English form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH. :)

          • Derrick

            @DavidMurphy Also in Isaiah 43:10 you have Yahweh saying that there is no ???? or êl which is translated God and is an all inclusive word for God and means any type of God, idol, Divine Being, Mighty one. So if this is Jesus talking he is stating that there is no other God of any sort besides me forever, this contradicts Mormon doctrine on so many levels. First it denies the existence of God the Father and the Holy Spirit which Mormonism affirms to be Separate beings and Separate Gods (tritheism).

            Also the teachings of Joesph Smith: “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-346). So here you see that God was not always God being referred to as the Father here, and was formed into God long ago.

            Also here: “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5).

            “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods,” (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

            Or Lorenzo Snow’s famous quote: “As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.” ( The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow).

            Also to proof my claims earlier on how Yahweh is elohim:
            -“Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD(Yahweh) he is God(elohim); there is none else beside him” (Deut. 4:35).
            -“That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD(Yahweh) is God(elohim), and that there is none else” (1 Kings 8:60).
            -“Know ye that the LORD(Yahweh) he is God(elohim): it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves;” (Psalm 100:3).

            So I just proved that it is not explicitly Jesus who is speaking in Isaiah 43:10 and you have a choice to either ignore the facts as many do, or accept the fact that you and collectively Mormonism has been wrong on this issue. And the issue of monotheism vs polytheism is indeed fatal for Mormonism I believe since it is an assault on God himself calling him a liar. Where Scripture says he indeed CANNOT lie.

            What are you going to do? Are you going to respond to this post or ignore it as others do after they are confronted with the truth, much more hangs in the balance than you fully realize. I pray you that you find a love for the truth and discovering it at any cost.

          • Derrick

            @David Murphy So you understand the difference between the names, now did you actually read my post and do you have an intelligent response to the real objections I made? And I’ve only been a Christian for a year and I have been able to learn enough about the Greek and Hebrew language to navigate myself through the Bible without making those kinds of errors.

          • LDSMissionary

            I just want to apologize for calling people idiots. That was wrong of me. But i do stand by what i said about our doctrine. It is true. You can refute all you want, but i promise you that one day we will all stand at the judgement bar of God and he himself will tell you that these things are true. I promise you that in that moment your words will condemn you, as the bible states.

          • Derrick

            @LDSMissionary Well you could try to refute my statements which directly indicate that what you have said is false, but instead you’re going to cop out of actually holding up your beliefs to the light. Indeed we all will stand before God’s judgement but if you’re right all I have to fear is at the worst the telestial kingdom but probably the terrestrial kingdom since I stand for Christ. What you have to fear if I am right is eternal torment in hell, which is what the Bible teaches not universal salvation into heaven which is split up into three kingdoms. Wake up and realize what is at stake here.

  • SubliminalDeath666

    Everyone know Mormons are already bizarre, so why would we need a list about them? :S

  • Blot

    As a former Mormon, I’d say this is one of the better-researched lists/articles I’ve seen. Informative, but nice to see that someone isn’t beating the polygamy dead horse. There’s other odd beliefs too. :)

    I’d say the most bizarre thing for me is hearing someone bear testimony of the complete truthfulness of the Mormon Church, especially after leaving. It’s kind of a WTF moment.

    All in all, Mormons are well-meaning folks, for sure. It’s just the taking the religion literally that’s the hard part.

  • Mystern

    Blot: Well said. As a former Mormon I completely agree.

  • I think taking ANY religion literally is recipe for disaster, no?

  • Blot

    It seems like in many religions, there are varying levels of literalness. But in Mormonism, it’s really all or nothing. It’s expected to give your 100% to its beliefs and doctrine, or there’s bound to be issues with you and potentially your membership.

    • elzie

      That is exactly what makes them known as a cult

    • Yeppers

      Blot: "It's expected to give your 100% to its beliefs and doctrine, or there's bound to be issues with you and potentially your membership." I've never heard that. What I HAVE heard is that we have free agency and if we choose not to follow some of the rules/commandments then that's between you and God.

    • Don

      Wrong. Membership is not revoked unless someone is determined to live in total violation of their covenants…and even then it’s relatively rare. And nobody expects Mormons to live 100% perfectly. It’s impossible. We are taught that there are consequences to our actions, either good or bad. In order to reach our greatest potential we should expect to make good choices along the way.

      This article is rubbish by the way. For (one of many) example(s), Tithing is a Biblical principle, not a Mormon one. It’s just that Mormons actually practice it.

      • Piper

        Im pretty sure Blot meant that You would have problems with Your membership. In other words, if you dont agree with the LDS church wholeheartedly and completely, its best not to get involved. Wouldnt you agree that its best not to commit yourself to something youre not fully committed to? I think thats what he meant, not that any member would be excommunicated for not swallowing all of it, all the time, all their lives.
        Im not a Mormon btw, blot’s comment just seemed like common sense to me.

  • Blot

    Mystern: Thanks, by the way!

  • Blogball

    Another interesting list.
    I have to believe that’s true about Mitt Romney. Everyone kind of makes believe it doesn’t matter about him being Mormon but you know it’s on the back of every bodies mind. It he gets the Rep. Nomination (Which he probably won’t) All of this weird stuff would be bound come to the surface.
    It might not seem fair but I guess everything is fair in love, war & politics.

  • Csimmons

    Mormons have a pretty weird religion, second to scientology.

  • amanda

    Mormons are considered Christians because they believe in Jesus. Any religion that believes in him is considered Christian.

    • elzie

      Not any reliogin hon its your personal soul that counts your relationship with Christ "Ye Must Be Born Again" Its in the book of Romans

    • Peggy

      Any religion that believes in Jesus as we find him in the Bible, and not anywhere else, is Christian. Also, Christians are trinitarian, that is they believe in One God in Three Persons, again as can be found in the Bible. There, God the Father never was a being of flesh and blood who became a god.

    • Melissa

      Muslims believe in Jesus as well. They don't think he was Allah's son, but they thought he was a prophet of God. According to your theory, that would make Muslims Christian. (:

      • TruthGiver

        Peggy i’m sorry, but the bible does not teach trinitarianism at all. In fact it teaches exactly the opposite. God the Father does have a body of flesh and bones. Jesus Christ said “I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” John 5:19. So, if The Son, Christ, can only do what he seeth the Father do, and He, The Son, has a body of flesh and bones, then it is clearly evident that the Father too must have a body of flesh and bones. To say that is false is to say that Christ himself is a liar, which we all know he is not. Also to further my point that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Ghost are three separate beings, rather than one person, who is magically three people, but at the same time just one person, i will use biblical evidence. At the baptism of Christ, 3 beings are distinctly presented. God the Father’s Voice came from heaven, The Son, Jesus Christ, was in the water, and the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove. Moreover, in John 3:16 it states “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,…” Now if the Father and The Son were one person, why does that scripture not read “For God so loved the world, that he sent himself…?” Because in reality, they are separate beings. Even more, when Stephen was being stoned, why does it say he sees God and Jesus standing on the right side of God. Acts 7:55-56 “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of cGod, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” According to your beliefs, he should have only seen one person, but he saw both The Father and The Son.

        There are countless other scriptures backing up our doctrine of distinct, separate beings. Please read the scriptures carefully, for they will teach you the truth of the Godhead. If you were curious, the doctrine of trinitariasm does not come from scriptures. Rather, a group of uninspired men got together and decided what they believe the nature of God to be. Read the Nicene Creed. It was just men, not God who came up with that doctrine. God clearly teaches in his scriptures of 3 separate, distinct beings. Which the LDS faith believes in. Which is truth.

  • hgaratie

    downhighway61 and phunniemee:

    I agree that if you drink 5 cups a day that coffee is bad for you. But that is why you do things in moderation. I do know that people addicted to Crystal Meth will get like 6 shots of expresso when they can’t find any drugs b/c it gives them the same high. I think I would have a heart attack!

  • bucslim

    MarkJ – Where’s the fun in that?

    You have a right to believe anything you want and it’s my right to ridicule it mercilessly. It’s more entertaining to watch some folks fire up that weed whacker engine of a brain and try to defend their stupid opinions and beliefs. At that point we can all sit back at watch the goons in our audience demean and poke fun at them. Can I be a pain in the ass? Sure!! But a few days ago I was laughing so hard at one of the threads in here I had milk coming out of my nose and I haven’t drank milk for about a week.

  • hgaratie

    I agree with MarkJ’s comment (#56). And doesn’t it say somewhere in the Bible (for the christians)that you will not be judged for things you do not know. So therefore, I don’t believe you will be go to Hell just b/c you were raised to believe a certain way or have a certain religion. Just be a good person.

    • yeppers

      Hgaratie: That's exactly what Mormons believe. That you WON'T go to hell for the lack of knowledge or being raised differently or being in a different religion.

  • Yogi Barrister

    I'm sure this has already been pointed out somewhere in the comments, but the most bizarre belief Mormons have is that Joseph Smith dug up a set of golden plates that only he could see.

    • Aundrea

      It is not true that only he could see them. There were a total of eleven other people who saw them, and their testimony of the matter is recorded.

      • BEGOOD

        Only 11 people? 11 people can lie or be mislead. When Jesus walked this earth thousands of people saw Him and were witnesses to his miracles! I would not believe it just because 11 people claim to have seen it.

    • BEGOOD

      Mormons also believe that Adam and Eve came from another planet. I have a Mormon friend (I'm pentecostal) that told me that. I told him that, according to the old testament, God states that He created Adam from the dust of the earth and that Eve was created from Adams' rib. The so-called Prophets in the Mormon Church claim that they received this so-called revelation claiming that Adam and Eve came from another planet. The problem is that this so-called revelation that these so-called Prophets claim does not agree with the Word of God which makes their claim not biblical; If it is not a biblical, it is not truth.

    • Eric

      There were actually 8 other people who were given the opportunity to see and touch them. They wrote 2 different statements about the incident declaring their testimony that it is real.
      I am a mormon by the way. I don’t know 100% that it is completely true, but I do believe it fully. I have studied it quite well and I have even served a 2 year mission. My life has been really good, and I credit God for all of it.

      • David Murphy

        Knowledge from God on golden plates is strange… but getting knowledge from God in a burning bush and putting it on stone tablets is an every day thing? :)

        • TruthGiver

          Ok BEGOOD, just to clear up a few things that you have been mislead upon. Your Mormon friend who told you that we believe Adam and Eve came from a different planet is completely false and needs to study what our church truly believes. I myself at this point in time am a full-time missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or as you refer to us, The Mormon Church. I have taught the creation hundreds of times to investigators and people that i meet on a daily basis. We absolutely do not say that Adam and Eve came from another planet. That is completely false and ridiculous. We stand by the account given in Genesis that God the Father and His son, Jesus Christ (known at that time as Jehova) came down and created man in their own image. Genesis 1:26-27- “And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Genesis 2:22 “And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.” This is what we as missionaries teach everyday. As you can see our doctrine come the Holy Bible. In case you did not know, we use the King James Version as the official bible of our church. To say that we teach anything but this doctrine is false and your friend needs to truly search and find out what our church really believes in. Our prophets have not claimed anything else and to say that is false. Please check your resources before coming online and posting ridiculous nonsense.

          Also to go on your claim that you cannot believe that the Gold plates are genuine because only 11 men actually saw them is ridiculous as well. You completely miss the meaning of faith. Faith is seeing without believing. Jesus Christ himself says “Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” John 20:29. That is what faith is, believing but not seeing. So i ask you, where is your faith? Another question is, how can you claim the Bible to be true, if you have no witnesses here to tell you. All we have is 5 of the original apostles writings. So there you see that there are only 5 witnesses to Christ’s miracles. Now if you do the math, that is 6 less witnesses than we have to the Gold Plates. So by saying that the Gold Plates cannot be real because only 11 men were witnesses to them, then you also claim that The New Testament is indeed false because we only have 5 witnesses to back it up. Now are you claiming the Bible to be false? My recommendation would be to take the challenge issued in The Book of Mormon, to find out if it is true. That challenge is:

          “Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

          4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

          5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. ”

          -Moroni 10:3-5

          Before you come and claim us to be false, please take it upon yourself to find out if it is true by asking God. He is the only one who can give you an answer to this question. Please get in contact with the Missionaries. They can help you along the path to finding the truth.

  • toolnut

    phunnieme: I’ve totally seen it. One of my favorite South Park episodes. If you haven’t seen it I definitely recommend watching it. It definitely gives a new perspective on the religion not to mention its f-ing hilarious!

    I’m from Nevada and Mormon population here is downright insane. I know a lot of them personally and they are usually very nice people that have good family values. But those listed above are not their only strange beliefs and practices. They constantly send missionaries to every house on your street, and they are hard to get rid of. Also, I’m not sure if this is still true but something that I always found kind of hypocritical was that the Mormons actually own the Coca Cola company. Also Utah has one of the highest percentages of meth users, coicidence? Damn blue collar tweekers! Sorry that may have been a little out of line, but from my experience its very common.

    As far as polygamy goes, I think that originally the Mormons were polygamists but they broke away from the practice because it was so looked down upon. However polygamists do still exist in Utah, specifically Colorado City. I’ve seen some news programs, and documentaries on them and they are some strange folk. The male with the most power in their church lives a lavish lifestyle with many wives while the rest of the community lives in near poverty and horrible living conditions. I’ve seen it with my own eyes while driving through.

    • Courtney

      Polygamy is not at all practiced in the lds church. It is practiced in the flds church, which separated from the lds church more than a hundred years ago. Our 12th article of faith states that 'we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.' When Congress voted to forbid plural marriages the prophet at that time stated that since we as members of the lds church wished to be law-abiding citizens, we would obey the new law and no longer participate in polygamy.

    • yeppers

      Toolnut: How is it hypocritical that Mormons own the Coca Cola company? We are allowed to drink Coca Cola as long as we aren't addicted to the thing. It's not the caffeine that keeps us away from coffee.

    • SC servent of Christ

      sorry but your mistaken on the whole "them stopping polygamy bc it was looked down upon". i would invite u to go read the scriptures. They stopped bc God told them to stop. Just as God told the ppl in the OT to start and stop.

  • downhighway61

    hgaratie- first, i’m sorry i misspelled your name in my previous comment. i noticed it after i posted it.
    and….
    well, theoretically you could shoot heroin in moderation, and smoke cigarettes in moderation. it seems like it’s more of a “why tempt yourself?” and it kind of reminds me of the reasoning behind religious jews not touching members of the opposite sex unless you are married or related to them, because it could lead to temptation. (actually, we jews have a lot of preventative measures) coffee may not seem like a bad thing to you or me, but it still contains a stimulant. it really does make sense from a religious point of view.

  • downhighway61

    toolnut- are you from las vegas?

  • toolnut

    downhighway61: no, I’m from Northern Nevada, about 3 hours away from Salt Lake City

    • Tiffany

      My brother is serving his mission in Northern Nevada =) COOL!!

  • downhighway61

    toolnut-
    i would like to see the rest of the state, i live in las vegas and i’m sick of it.

  • toolnut

    downhighway61: well I would say come on up, (it’ll take about 7 hours to get here from Vegas) but there’s really not a lot to do up here, unless you drink. Its really pretty country (some of the most beautiful skies I’ve ever seen), very conservative, and there are a lot of Cowboy types. In fact the National Cowboy Poetry gathering just came to a close this weekend. I think it would be a bit of a culture shock to you if you’ve never been in these parts before.

  • downhighway61

    actually, i’m from new york. i’ve only been in las vegas for about 4 years. the west in general is a culture shock to me.
    i’m going to be driving back east before we move to england so i may try to go up that way, see something new and all. i want to drive through wyoming, i haven’t done that yet.

  • toolnut

    It’s definitely worth it just to say you’ve seen it. You might want to wait a couple months if thats possible. We’ve had record snow fall this year (like over a foot and a half all together). As soon as we get the streets semi-cleaned up it snows again.

  • downhighway61

    hahaha!!! i’m sorry. a foot and a half is nothing. well to me anyway. we would get like 2 feet in one snowfall. i remember trying to get to the end of my driveway one winter and i slipped and got stuck in the snow, it was so damn deep. but yeah, we can’t leave here until may anyway. military says so. but i’m going to try to convince my husband to go up that way. the only problem is 15 doesn’t go that way, and 95 is completely out of the way.

  • jamie

    I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints myself, and it makes me laugh at how strange you think “us Mormons” to be :) its really not all that absurd! i mean someone cutting out carbohydrates from their diet because it isn’t good for their body is pretty much the same as me saying that i wont drink alcohol or smoke. right? and tithing: God has given us everything, bodies, trees, houses, happiness, etc. why cant we give him 10% of what we earn? Well, i believe it with all my heart and soul :)

    • Courtney

      Amen to that!

      • pingping

        amen too.

    • SHARON

      I AM ALSO A MEMBER OF CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LADDER DAY SAINTS. I WAS PROTISTANT ALL MY YOUNGER LIFE. I WAS MISSING SOMETHING', I LOVED THE FAMILY INSPIRATION TAUGHT BY LDS. I HAVE BEEN A MEMBER FOR 10 YEARS I AGREE WITH YOU, GOD HAS GIVEN US SO MUCH AND I THANK HIM EVERY DAY. AND PAY MY TITHES AND OFFERINGS FREELY.

    • narina

      jamie-that was beautifully written! I recently got baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I totally agree with you. :)

  • toolnut

    you’d need to take 93 up towards Ash Springs, then turn off onto State Hwy 318 towards Lund, then hop onto I6 then back onto 93 (this will take you through Ely) stay on 93 til you hit I80, then go west on I80, we’re about a half hour from the 93 turnoff.

  • DiscHuker

    given that these beliefs, and many others, contradict christian docrine, why are mormons still considered “christian”?

    and to get back on the conversation earlier in the posts, if you are going to subscribe to any set of beliefs, shouldn’t you do it all the way? isn’t mediocrity hated in just about every capacity? if i have to have an emergency surgery, i sure hope that my surgeon isn’t a half-hearted surgeon, only believing some of what a “fundamental” surgeon believes. i hope that he is “all-in” when it comes to the doctrines of that profession.

    • Courtney

      being a christian doesn't mean you believe in a set doctrine it just means you believe in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice he made for us.

  • JT

    None of these are uniquely strange. In fact, you could probably find equally strange things in any religion, from catholicism to zoroastrianism. As far as I know, denying the holy spirit is the only unforgivable sin in ALL of christianity.

    • Wally

      Jesus says in the Gospel according to Mark that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only sin that will not be forgiven.

  • slipstick

    MarkJ: I believe that there’s no harm in believing what you want to believe in, if it makes you a better person. In my experience, religions basically teach “Be excellent to each other.” It’s the people who tell others, “Just read this part here and try not to think too hard about it,” or “Everybody MUST believe this way,” is where it all goes downhill.

    Wicca is a modernized version of the religion that existed prior to the others. As such, I believe that Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Budda, et al. were excellent teachers. Too bad that organized religion has twisted what they stood for and what they believed. I also believe that if the first three I listed saw what was going on in the middle east with the blood spilled over the Holy land, that they would be going, “What the do you think you’re doing?!? Learn to live together in peace and don’t make us come there ourselves!”

  • toolnut

    Jamie: I think that, atleast in my eyes, the practices of the Mormon religion aren’t all that strange. It’s the rumors you hear of the practices once you get higher up in the church that really make me cringe. I have spoken with people that were once very high up in the church and the things they told me really just bring question to LDS credibility.

  • toolnut

    Jamie: One more question. . . What’s with most of the Mormon churches always having a basketball court inside? I realize its a fun game and all but every LDS church I’ve been to has one.

    • yeppers

      Toolnut: I know I'm not Jamie but I think we have the basketball courts because we are very family oriented and sometimes we get together and have fun activities. We like to have fun in healthy ways ^-^

  • Derek

    Its for the youth programs (the basketball hoops) and also serves as a multi-purpose room for overflow seating, any parties and things of that nature. and there is also a funny movie called church ball with gray coleman, its pretty funny. You probably won’t get some of the jokes if you aren’t LDS though. Check it out if you can.

  • crashgate

    If the mormon bible was written in the 1800s, why does it use very old english speech? because it was copied straight from the King James bible.

    • Danny Moore

      It was not copied straight from King James Bible. You will never find John Smith listed in any connection with the true word of God" and I can see why not. Made Made…Man written. Sorry John, You just are not there.

      • Gary

        John Smith….I beleive he was married to Pochonas wasn't he….. You really need to get your people straight……The Book of Mormon was translated from plates that were writen long before King James & we use the King James version on the Bible right along with the Book of Mormon. What Bible do you use…..there are so many…..are they all correct?

  • Ruko

    Hi all, I’m a member of the LDS church. In my experience, beliefs of the faith that are construed as weird are often extremely misunderstood. For example, using crashgate’s comment – the Bible that Mormons use is the King James Bible. There is no seperate Bible. Mormons do believe in additional revelations and scripture, and those are found in The Book of Mormon and The Doctrine and Covenants, along with other texts. To suggest that Mormons “copied” the Bible is ignorant.

    If you consider the theological background behind such things as the Mormon processes of covenant making (for example, baptism, the sacrament, and marriage sealings that take place in the temple), and the importance of our beliefs in the work we do for our ancestors, it actually is all very logical and makes a lot of sense. I appreciate that the author of this article provided scriptural support, but some of the claims are not accurate, nor provide the proper doctrinal context. I’m very tired of my faith’s beliefs being misunderstood and misinterpreted. We believe that the true word of God is active on the earth today, and that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ established a plan of happiness for mankind. Critical to that plan’s success was the understanding that man must be obedient to the commandments of God. With the understanding that man would be imperfect, Jesus Christ willingly sacrificed himself for the world to give mankind the opportunity to repent, grow, and return to live with our Heavenly Father, and the presence of our Savior indicates the merciful nature of this plan. As we covenant to obey, we’re pleased to not only return to our Heavenly Father, but are also blessed to do so with our families. That’s the core of the belief.

    I try to have a great relationship with my wife. We’ll try to raise kids properly when that time comes. We work hard, obey the law, and try to be good people to everyone around us. I feel people like this are not the ones that should be so misunderstood.

    • elzie

      That is not true you just lied Mormons use several books on teachings. The KJV is to convert you then you start with Joe Smith and D&C and Pearl of Great Price ect… ect………. ect……….

      • CJA

        elzie wow im unactive mormom and your comment is untrue why dont you try going to the church…go for a month straight thats 4 times, try it… What your afraid we will brain wash you? lol I think people think in terms of the world way too much. If you think about the HUGE picture of the universe and God knows what else is out there, it is selfish to think so worldly. Don't cha think? The church is bomb,love it!

    • narina

      We LDS members say these things humbly in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen! :)

  • Mom424

    Mystern; Wonderful list and not nasty at all! The tithing thing is practice/law with the Jehova Witnesses as well. Did you know why JW’s do a lot of evening contract cleaning? I asked. Because it is part of their duty to proselytize. You can’t do that if you’re at work 9 to 5. Gotta convert everyone.
    Oh, and I saw the gold plates of Joseph Smith…Yup they were in a movie at the LDS temple up the road…..

  • I was a bit scared to see the title, but the list is pretty well researched and put together. I’m not offended at all to see these things, actually, they seem to stimulate healthy discussions.

  • Palrao

    This list is very curious…and I can’t help remembering Monty Python and the Holy Grail, in the dialogue preceding the throwing of the Holy hand grenade when the priest goes:
    “And the Lord spake, saying, “First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.”
    I’m sorry but I had to share, it’s just too funny (no offense)

  • goof_ball

    Crazy Sh*t!

  • ProgRapture

    Although I find Mormons to be quite eccentric, I have nothing against them. I like this site a lot due to it’ honesty without offending people, unless you deny the Holocaust or are a Scientologist of course!
    And don’t forget everyone, support Anonymous and on February 10th is a worldwide protest against Scientology! Unless Tom Cruise summons the ancient Thetans and take all our money!

  • I’m trying to convince my wife to convert to Mormonism. Not that I want to give up my single malt or my morning coffee, it’s just that with polygamy you have to date your new wives for a couple of years, each, don’t you? That could be fun.

  • El duderino: Contrary to popular belief that Mormons are All polygamists, it’s only the more radical of the sects that believe that it is, in the eyes of God, right. This needs to be cleaned up quick, It’s like saying Satanists still practice Human Sacrifice. I would know I’m “half” Mormon.

    ProgRapture: I’m There!!! I don’t usually do anything on the B-day, this time I think I’ll make an exception.

  • IDreamOfSpace

    People like to bash on the Mormons a lot and I just don’t understand. A lot of the people who do, ritualistically devour the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ themselves every Sunday and don’t see anything weird about it. As a former Mormon and current atheist, I view religion with great respect and even more so when it’s practitioners exhibit great tolerance.

    • elzie

      See what they did to you, become a baptist

    • Courtney

      Thank you for being respectful of the lds faith.

    • narina

      yea, i noticed that too, people keep picking on Mormons way too much and it makes me wonder why. do they feel threatened or jeleous and if yes why on earth would they be??

      • tacos

        No one knows for sure. But we believe in the bible the only difference is we have an extra set of scriptures that we also believe in.

  • Shabab

    Well, one (the only) good thing scientology has done is make every other religion seem a lot less bizzarre….and what does ‘LDS’ stand for btw?

  • IDreamOfSpace

    Latter Day Saints

  • Adia

    As a member of the faith since I was eight years old. I can tell you that you can be forgiven for murder. But not for denying god. And denying god is a lot harder than it seems. For mormons it means having to have seen and heard god personally. As in seeing him as a person, and THEN denying him. LDS Stands for Latter Day Saints. Mormonism is actually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    • elzie

      Why did Mormonism have to change their name to Latter Day Saints? ??? Because the church wasnt and isnt built on the foundation of GOD it was built by Joe Smith

      • Mormon is a nickname the MOB gave us, never was our official name, and never will be..back in tha bible times members of His (Jesus's) church were classified as Saints..not cuz they were perfect, but because they were made perfect in Him..So they were Saints..
        we are in the last day or Later Days..and we are members of his Church, therefore u have it..Later Day Saints..

        1 Corinthians 1:2
        To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

        • Sami

          exactly!

    • SC servent of Christ

      i agree with Adia!!!

  • Adia

    Polygamy as it was brought up is practiced by FLDS faithfuls. That religion is a religion that stemmed off of Mormonism. When polygamy was banned by the church more than a hundred years ago some people disagreed with it and went off on their own.

  • booya

    Amanda, just because a group believe in jesus does not mean that they are part of or affiliated with a christian church. The way the mormon church views jesus is completely different from the other denominations of christianity, as well as the fact that all of their other views are completely different, if not in exact opposition of the christian church. Its like if i said i was hungry for a sandwich and you gave me a wrench in between 2 peices of bread….its on the right track, but just not as savory and delicious. Plus instead of having the satisfied feeling being full, i would have chipped teeth and medical bills. Also i would have to poop a wrench.

    • elzie

      You are the only one You got it Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know exactly what you are saying they love converting people.

      • Rachel Brown

        They will NEVER convert me. You wanna say that the way mormon churches view Jesus is completely different? Yeah, you are all twisted and we are not. Amen!

    • alan

      booya, Mormons believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost are separate and distinct individuals. Mainstream Christians got together and decided the three were actually just one person. Now really, which one seams more bizarre to you. Do you really think God the Father came down and became Jesus then prayed to himself? Really?

    • Jay

      booya, it's been over two years. That wrench ever come through?

      • narina

        ROFL Amen :D

    • eyes wide open

      Amen :)

  • Thank you Adia.

  • DiscHuker

    as far as i understand, when a doctrine of the Bible conflicts with the book of mormon or the D&C, the weight is given to the latter. that seems pretty weird given that they say that the Bible is the true revelation of God.

  • Toolnut: “Those Damn blue-collar tweekers, There beloved in this here town.”

  • kakazed

    number 100…man if u think thats crazy you should hear this lady http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_%28book%29

    she was part of an extremist part of mormon church, married at 18 to a 50 year old man and programmed to believe that the way to heaven is by sexually pleasing her husband. she escaped later once her son got cancer and she was told it was God punishing her…amazing story..

    • Elizabeth

      Polygamy is NOT practiced.. God wants us to be married and have children.. If anything he wants the best for us to be happy. What abot these children that make up lies like "Oh he touched me!" And make it sound so dramatic?? I think this is one of these cases.

    • Yeppers

      Kakazed: Schools/Colleges tell us that wikipedia is not a reliable source for a reason…

    • Sami

      thats would be the flds not lds i hate it when people mix us up

  • Mom424

    Booya; rofl, but I gotta tell you that their beliefs (not the organization or hierarchy) are only marginally weirder than we christians. If of course you were being purely analytical.

  • JwJwBean

    I am still catching up on all the posts. I called my mom ealrier this evening. She converted to Moron, oops I mean Mormon when I was 16. I did not convert with her. She always believed in Freedom of religion. She is married to a Jew. Anyway. She replied to me sending her the link to this list. I wondered how true it all was. This was her reply:

    Yep, all true. And the later ones, I agree, are weird. Not so sure I think the alcohol one is all that weird and the hot drinks thing is not followed by most Morons er I mean Mormons.

    But why did they show a Catholic confessional regarding the Forgiveness one, I wonder? They certainly changed the picture of The Prophet quickly enough, too.

    Mommy

    She doesn’t know the list was just made so the picture wasn’t changed.

    • pingping

      twice you intentionally snide the Mormons as Morons..since your mom was converted to Mormonism then you have tagged her as a moron too..bad child

    • taco

      why do you dislike Mormons so much? what has this religion ever done to you?

  • Hannah

    Amanda- Mormons are the only one’s who consider themselves “Christians”. The Protestant and Catholic church do not consider Mormon’s to be Christians. They consider Mormonism to be a “Pseudo-Christian cult”.

  • amanda

    Booya-
    You can believe in Jesus and not be a part of a ‘Christian’ church. The word Christian means believer of Christ. I personally believe in Jesus, but I am not affiliated with any organized religion. Many people use the term Christianity as a crutch, or to justify their own biases. If people would actually read the Bible, they would know that true Christians love everyone and do not judge others. Mormons are in fact Christians, because they believe he was the son of God. Jews are not Christian because they believe that he was just a prophet.

  • amanda

    The Protestant and Catholic Churches can consider the Mormons to be whoever they want. Just like I can consider a Watermelon to be delicious while someone else thinks it’s disgusting. The opinion of the Mormons is the only one that matters. Personaly, I think many Christin sects are cult like and pseudo-christian, because they don’t follow the basic things that Christ says. The bible doesn’t say ‘Love everyone except for homosexuals’ I have first hand expirence with this since I grew up in a Southern Baptist household.

    • eyes wide open

      but thats just your experience…aren't you just putting a lable on all Christians based on that experience?? Ive never heard or got the impression that we are love conditionally!!!….thats too bad you grew up with that impression!

  • amanda

    and it’s past my bedtime and my mental spellcheck has stopped working…;-)

  • sue

    Oops,just noticed my mistake.Great list Mystern:)

  • satori

    Is anyone familiar with the Living Springs Church? They’re pretty much a cult too.

  • Shadow

    Actually Mystern, there was a breakaway sect after Joseph Smith died that continues to practice polygamy. They may be about to die off though, as they believed in hereditary inheritance of the leadership of their “church”. The last male heir (the only one who can assume the mantle of leadership for that church), is not too awful long for this world, and it must be a direct descendant of Smith for him to become their leader.

    Also, if you’ve been following the news; a ranking member of that cult is now going to spend the rest of his life in prison for crimes committed in his official capacity, insisting that those crimes were only enforcement of church dogma.

  • Not Ignorant

    Mormonism is not a cult.

    That is just ignorant.

  • Mystern

    Alright, from the top;

    toolnut: The LDS church does not own Coca Cola. The largest single shareholder in the Coca Cola company is Berkshire Hathaway, who owns 8% of the company, worth approx. 11 billion. While the LDS church may have a lot of money, the coffers would run dry long before 137 billion.

    Ruko: I was born and raised LDS. I know for a fact that none of these scriptures were taken out of context and that every one of these things is in fact actually believed by the LDS church.

    IDreamOfSpace: This list was not intended to bash on Mormons. In fact I wrote this list to dispel myths about some of these things.

    Adia: You are incorrect. In the LDS faith you can be forgiven for manslaughter, not murder.

    JwJwBean: The catholic confessional is because it was the only picture I could find that nearly everyone would associate with forgiveness.

    And a last note to all the LDS members who have contributed to the comments, thanks. The majority of you recognized that I was trying to be truthful and accurate in my presentation of this list and supported me for it. Again, thanks.

    • BEGOOD

      To say that murder is an unforgivable sin is not biblical. According to the bible, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. My Mormon friend said murder is unforgivable because you can't bring the person back to life, but we cannot reverse any sin we've committed. If you steal something, you can't "unsteal" it. If you lie to someone, you can admit what you did and ask forgiveness, but you can't "unlie" as though it never happened. When any type of harm is done to someone, you can't undo the harm. Murder is wrong, but not the unforgivable sin.

  • JwJwBean

    If you all didn’t get it from my mom’s reply to me the moron/Mormon comments are meant as a joke. I have many Mormon friends and as I said my mother converted to Mormon also.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; I don’t think that not being forgiven for murder is a bad thing. Murder, like intentionally for some sort of gain, either financial or personal; You don’t deserve to be forgiven.

  • copperdragon

    surprised not to see the top 3 (IMHO)

    1. undergarments
    2. baptism for the dead
    3. polygamy (have you see the HBO show “Big Love”? hilarious!)

    • taco

      WE DO NOT practice Polygamy! what part of that do you people NOT understand!?

  • Mystern

    Mom424: I agree to an extent. It’s kind of like debating the death penalty though. Everyone will have their own opinions and no one is ever going to agree.

    Copperdragon: I did not include items on other lists and polygamy is no longer being practiced by mainstream Mormons

  • Mom424

    Mystern; for your info…I don’t believe in the death penalty…it is administered by humans and we are not infallible. (in Canada, Steven Truscott, Donald Marshall,Guy Paul Morin, not dead because we have no death penalty)It is even more tragic in places like Texas where they are all horny for retribution. That said, I do believe in punishment. Karla Holmoka having Lesbian sex daily and hetero sex through the fence with some psycho sickened me…and Clifford Olsen and his nuisance suits that we pay for….
    Life at hard labour,,,,ok by me

  • Mystern

    Mom424: Think about it this way. Let’s say, hypothetically speaking, you came home from the grocery store and found your entire family murdered. Think about it. Think about each of your four sons lying there dead on the floor. There has been an obvious struggle, and before one of your family members died of their wounds, they managed to knock the killer unconscious. There is his gun, lying there on the floor, still loaded. What would you do, knowing that in Canada this man will live out the rest of his life?
    Or imagine coming home to find your husband cheating with your sister. What’s more, he says that he has never loved you and has been with your sister since before you were married. What would you do?
    Yes, these are extreme examples, but such is the nature of life. Extreme things happen. I am positive that in each situation you would have done what you felt was best. You might not have felt it was the right thing to do but I’m sure you thought it was the best thing you could do in the circumstance. Because, let’s face it, if you didn’t think it was the best thing you could do, you wouldn’t have done it.

    Such is the case for every human being in existence. I’ve done things in my life that I know were stupid and looking back I don’t think it was the best thing I could have done. But I know that at the time I thought my actions the best possible. Everyone has a reason for what they do. If I kill a mass murderer, should I be forgiven? If I am forgiven, then why not the mass murderer himself? At what point do we draw the line? Why are my reasons for killing more valid than his reasons? The moral compass society lives by is very unjust.
    The reason I included number 2 on this list is because I’ve come to the realization that the moral compass religion gives God is just as unjust. We do not know God’s mind and therefore cannot project our morality upon him. Imagine being forgiven for anything an infinite amount of times simply because you ask. Versus someone suffering eternal damnation because they did not ask for forgiveness even though they never sin again. The difference is the first man enjoyed his sin and rejected his enjoyment of it, thus leading him to sin again. The second man though, recognized his enjoyment of the sin and because of this was filled with such remorse that he decided to never sin again. He also felt such remorse that he felt he could never be forgiven, thus without forgiving himself (a major part of repentance in any religion), he was unable to ask God for forgiveness and was subsequently never forgiven.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; Husband cheating with sister – I would not consider that murder for gain,its losing it and it is manslaughter
    My family murdered – of course I would personally want those suckers dead – but as a society I believe we must behave in a manner better than that. If you haven’t seen the interview with Alison Parrot’s mom(child murdered by Francis Carl Roy) it is amazing. Forget Mother Theresa, this woman should be canonized.
    I do believe that there are things we should not forgive ourselves for, understand maybe, but forgive? When I was a teenager I once did the mob thing to someone. You know a bunch of us just tormenting the hell out of a girl cuz she had big boobs, many boyfriends or something; We pinned her down and wrote slut on her forhead or something equally awful. I won’t ever forgive myself for not sticking up for her, I understand the stoopid teenage need for acceptance is why I stood by and laughed. I am a better person because of it. I have never done anything like that again, and when I witness injustice or cruelty I speak up. God can forgive me and maybe even Janet P., but myself,,,I think not

  • Mystern

    Exactly. You prove my point. The moral compass of the individual is subjective to the point of being nonexistent.

  • Amanda: You said, “The bible doesn’t say ‘Love everyone except for homosexuals’” I now direct your attention to the following quote:

    If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. Leviticus 20:13

    It really doesn’t get any clearer than that.

    • BEGOOD

      While God does state that sexual immorality is a sin, He still loves the sinner. As Christians, we need to love these people; Love is what will attract all sinners to become Christians. While I do not condone any sexual immorality, I still love the people. As Christians, we need to focus on loving and serving others and on loving and serving the Lord Jesus. As for the sinner, let God be the judge. Sin is sin, no matter what it is. Since all of us have sinned, we all need the love and forgiveness of Jesus Christ.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; Do you mean that their are no moral absolutes? That nothing is always wrong? Sorry if I’m being obtuse. I’m not arguing but I need clarification.

  • SocialButterfly

    Miss Destiny: You need to realize that the bible is wrong on this fact.

    You can’t help who you love, you just can’t and for ANYONE to try and tell someone otherwise… well they need to pull their head out of their ass and take a glimpse in the real world. Because the moment anyone and I mean anyone tries to tell me who I am allowed to love (I am straight) I will be shoving their head so far up their ass that they will be talking through their belly button.

    How would you feel if you were told that you were not allowed to love someone with brown hair or green eyes or that was left handed. That is how ridiculous this is.

    • BEGOOD

      Sex does not always equal love. We can love someone without sexual immorality.

  • I’m not saying I AGREE with the Bible. I’m just saying it’s there!

    Please don’t go putting words and ideas in my mouth. Sorry if I was unclear.

  • Mystern

    Mom424: No I am not saying there are no moral absolutes. I am saying there are no moral absolutes within religion that allow for justice. I am saying there are no moral absolutes within the human psyche.
    For example, I don’t consider it wrong for me to have premarital sex, for various reasons I won’t go into. But other people do consider it wrong.
    There may or may not be such a thing as absolute morality, I don’t know. If it does exist then there is a line and that line is either unfair, or “all or nothing”. If the line says I can sin 5 times then it’s unfair to the one who sins 6 times. If the line is drawn at 1 sin then it’s fair, but hard.

  • SocialButterfly

    Miss Destiny: I apologize for puting words in your mouth but when someone quotes the bible to prove someone else wrong, there is a tendancy to believe that they are backing up what they quoted.

    My apologies.

  • SocialButterfly: No harm no foul. I was just interested by Amanda’s comment and felt the need to reply.

  • amanda

    If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. Leviticus 20:13

    That is in the Old Testament. Christ didn’t come along until Matthew, the New Testament. John 3:16 reads ‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

    It does not say whosoever except homosexuals. I find the Old Testament to be crap and not part of the Christian religions. How can it be Christian when it pre-dates Christ? I think it’s all myth and folklore, much like the Greek Gods and Godesses. Christ was a great man and a great teacher, and his work is overshadowed by controlling zealots who killed every innocent person who disagreed with them. If people would just concentrate on Christ’s message of love this world would be a much better place.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; Aha, lightbulb engaged. (kids in the andes eating human flesh, or borneo headhunters for that matter)Your point is true, thus my lack of belief in organized religion. I am hoping though that there are moral absolutes within the human psyche. Maybe thats what evil is. No lines you won’t cross.

  • Mystern

    Mom424: Evil? Evil is an invention of the powerful to scare the masses into submission. As are the concepts of right and wrong. If there is absolute evil or absolute good in the universe humans will never find it. By your definition I would be considered evil during certain circumstances. How can I consider someone who does only as they see fit as evil? To claim thus would make every single individual within the human race evil.

    • BEGOOD

      I can tell you first hand, there is absolute evil and absolute good in our world. I have experienced first-hand the absolute evil of the devil and the absolute good of God. You don't have to believe it and that is your choice, but it does exist. Both evil and good are present, but people chose not to see it.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; And Joseph Mengele did only what he saw fit… I disagree, rather vehemently, evil was not created by the masses, but perpetrated by them. I have no problem believing in evil, its really the only logical reason I believe in god.

  • Mystern

    Mom424: You argue semantics. Nevertheless I see your point. I still maintain that every human action is a choice and every choice made is the best possible choice, as seen by that individual, at that time, under those circumstances.

    • BEGOOD

      Every human action is a choice, but not all choices are the best choice possible, as seen by that individual, at that time, under those circumstances. I am a former drug addict, I never considered doing drugs as a good choice even while I was in the middle of the dope. I've got almost two years of sobriety.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; We will agree to disagree, but in my personal example, I did not make the best possible choice.

  • Mystern

    Mom424: Very well. We can agree to disagree but the question I ask you is this:
    You see your choice as bad. But that is in reference to where you are now. When you made the choice did you see it as a bad choice? If so why did you make it? You may say that you don’t know why you made it but the truth is you saw it as the best thing you could do in the circumstances. I believe you are confusing what I am saying. I am saying you made the best possible choice for you. Not necessarily what you saw as right or good, but what you saw as best of the options available. As a matter of fact you may have at the time seen it as the worst (morally speaking) thing you could have possibly done. However, if you did not see it as the best (psychologically speaking) choice, why did you make that choice. for that matter, why do you make any choices?

  • Mom424

    Mystern; Holy Hannah, we’re taking the chicken/egg debate to whole new levels….
    I have to think and process all of this, also household drudgery awaits,,,we will continue a little later

  • asimon

    Dont know if this was covered but as far as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young not being forgiven of murder, thats an easy one. They had a hitman so to speak. The guys name was Porter Rockwell. Heres the link for from Wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Rockwell

  • Blogball

    What if the Mormons are right and our god is some guy named Bob from New Jersey who happened to be a really good Mormon?

    • BEGOOD

      If it isn't in the bible, I don't believe it.

  • jamie

    Toolnut: hahaha yeah, pretty much every Mormon church has a basketball court inside :) its great isnt it? hahaha Well, this way we can play basketball all year round! I see it as a good way for the young men to have fun and keep out of trouble. ;) It also provides a good way to bond. So why not inside? Thanks for your insights as well ;)

  • amanda: I agree w/ you, one reason why I avoid Christian religions in general. I also avoid those who are quote happy of Paul’s writings. It makes me laugh especially when I remember Harry Dean Stanton playing Paul in “The Last Temptation of Christ”, even though in Christ’s vision on the cross that he didn’t die, Paul still became preachy happy even without a savior.

    Here’s a scripture for the forgiveness thingy Alma 39:1-6

    Another bizarre Mormon belief I thought of the other day, when Christ visited the Americas he chose another 12 apostles and asked what they desired. 9 wanted full lives, but wanted to ascend to heaven eventually. The other 3 were granted immortality and are still walking around to this day.

    Check out 3 Nephi 28:1-25 or go here if you don’t have a BOM:
    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/28/7-8,25,37-38#7

    Verse 25 is especially giggle worthy.

    Now I’ve started to settle most of my beefs with the LDS church. I’m not like the nutters at exmormon.org, though I used to be. To me any organized religion is bizarre. Some beliefs may be bizarre, but damn, I fear the “bizarre” people even more: Mike Huckabee is a fruit, so is Fred Phelps, Louis Farrakhan, Pope Benedict, Ted Haggard, James Dobson, Tom Cruise, Warren Jeffs and many others. (Not to say these people are bad or evil, don’t get me wrong, I just don’t want them dictating my life)

    All I ask of people is to not judge and be aware of other things. Don’t get so close minded when people judge your beliefs. Read the Bible, the Qur’an, the Book of Mormon, the Gnostic gospels, the Rig Vedas, Tao te Ching, etc. If you want less scriptural reading the Dummies and Idiot’s Guide books on any religion are pretty well informed, ie Religion for Dummies.

    I’d avoid books by Karen Armstrong (decent, but not for the layman anyways) and anything published by Regnery Publishing, Inc or the “Politically Incorrect Guides” (very conservative bias that slanders anything non-Protestant Christian). If you want to learn more about atheism Sam Harris isn’t as annoying as Richard Dawkins, but they’re both “holier than thou” atheists.

    Hell if you don’t like to read there are some good movies and documentaries out there too. “The Message” (about Islam), “The Last Temptation of Christ” (“The Passion of the Christ” is just pointless, imo), “Jesus Camp” and “Fall from Grace” are good documentaries about extreme “Christianity” (very loose term there), and if you’re curious about early Christianity simplified yet not stupefied, check out “From Jesus to Christ”. If you can get your hands on them, Mormon seminary videos can be decent, a little propagandistic, but it makes somethings simple. The old Book of Mormon cartoons are just too weird.

    I haven’t found many good movies on Eastern religions, if anybody knows of any please let me know.

    Knowledge can help find the means to eliminate intolerance, or at least lubricate the grindstone better.

    And if nothing else check out religioustolerance.org and religiousworlds.com, these are some great sites.

    My two cents, if everybody had an open mind maybe they wouldn’t feel so threatened. This includes Muslim, Christian (yes, I’m sticking Mormons in there), Jew, atheist, agnostic, Baha’i, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.

    Ecclesiastes 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

    (Is it foolish to quote the Bible when I said to research other things? ;])

  • “…believes in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as separate beings.”

    That’s what Muslims believe also.
    God is creator
    Jesus is prophet
    Holy Spirit is angel

  • Mount Teetar

    You forgot one most excellent belief of mormons, that of course was abandoned in the name of political correctness( I didn’t know god’s word was so tempermental) .

    Mormons believe that :
    The angels that fought on the side of lucifer became demons.
    The angels that fought on the side of god became aryan white people.
    The angels who did not fight at all…. became black people!

    Hahahaha makes sense to me.

    • Aundrea

      It is true that we believe that there was a war in heaven. God presented a plan, one it which we would have freedom to choose and Jesus would be our Savior, and Satan presented another plan in which we would not have agency but would all be saved. Some fought on the side of Satan, and they are now evil spirits, and those who fought on God's side have a chance to come to Earth to grow and progress and hopefully return to Heaven. There is no distinction made between different races in the war in heaven.

  • Mystern

    Mount Teetar: Close but not quite. Official church documents list it as spirits who were “less valiant” in the war in heaven became black people, but there were no bystanders.

  • Brian

    Some of the comments on this list are just retarded. Mormons are not any more strange then any other bible toters. At least you don’t see them involved in scandals on a regular basis.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; I’ve been processing our little debate for the last few days, trying to figure out why my bullshit (read common-sense) detectors were firing…I couldn’t quite figure out why because I finally understand what you are saying and don’t really disagree. I think I figured it out. I was actually thinking about Anne Perry (author, co-killed her friends mom when caught up in fantasy/love relationship in her teens). The problem I was having is just semantics, but important semantics. Instead of correct choice, I think more apt, “only” choice psychologically speaking….

  • Mystern

    Mom424: I’m glad you finally got it. The thing most people don’t realize is that everything we do in life is the best we can do at the time. After the fact we may kick ourselves in the ass, but at the time if we saw any other viable alternatives we would have taken those.

    I’ve come to the realization that people get caught up lamenting the past thinking there was something they could have done differently. You know those people who are stuck in the same place in their lives? They always make the same mistakes? They are the ones most caught up in the past. They so fervently believe they could have done something differently that they recreate the same situation and make exactly the same mistake and then wonder why they are so miserable.

    I’ve realized that I really did the best I could have done in the past, considering the circumstances. I’ve also realized, while it’s important to remember the past, it doesn’t really have any effect on my current situation. Just because I made a bad decision in the past doesn’t mean the decision I must make right now is bad. It has to do with living in the present, and letting go of the past, and the future. What will come will come, you have no say in that whatsoever. And it’s not possible to change the past. The only time you can affect is right now. Period.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; what do you do in real life? You should teach.

  • Mystern

    Mom424: Teach what? For the longest time I wanted to be a teacher. Actually, I’ve aspired to many things in my life. Teaching, architecture, science, literature, business and engineering to name a few. You see how varied my tastes are? Right now I’ve ended up as a corporate junkie doing quality assurance. Basically, I listen to phone calls all day long and make sure the company can’t get sued. For a while there I was in sales, and I”m going back to do sales (door to door, no less) this summer.
    Above all else there is one thing in my life I’ve wanted to do. Write. I’ve thus far in my life not had the willpower to do it. The hardest part about writing is just sitting down and doing it. It’s not always easy. You can’t always write fifteen pages in a couple hours, sometimes it only ends up as fifteen sentences. That’s what’s hard about writing. I’ve just never had the willpower thus far to just sit down and do it.

  • Mom424

    Mystern; I also did sales for years, the varied interest thing gives you something in common with almost everyone, makes the sales easier.
    The reason I said you should teach is that you tend to provoke thought. What the best teachers do. It doesn’t really matter what subject; the best teachers/profs I had went off-topic always. I believe teachers to be under-paid and under-valued, at least the good ones….

  • Mystern

    Mom424: That is true. Although I believe that could be said for most of the valuable people in society.

  • Melissa

    I don’t know if it’s considered a bizarre practice, but it’s certainly an interesting fact: The LDS’ family records are an excellent resource for genealogical information. They keep very thorough familial records.

  • Melissa

    Almost forgot – on the practice of tithing and the comment made earlier about God giving us everything, um, can someone tell me exactly what the Creator of Everything (On A Non-Existent Budget) needs with 10% of my money? I think He would be happier knowing my family is fed, clothed, educated, and kept healthy. You know, seeing as he’s supposed to love us all, and such.

    • Aundrea

      He doesn't need the money. We need the faith to give it. But really, the tithing we give is used to pay church expenses, like building more buildings, printing church materials, and many other things.

  • Vicky

    I have a close friend who’s morman, but she’s refreshingly sane.

  • I live in Brazil, it’s funny to see al kind of foreigner people walking wearing the same clothes (the ‘elders’), entering in the ‘favelas’ to doctrine poor people, LOL. My father (74y.o.) is a kind of new-mormon and I caught him begging my for a cup of hot and delicious coffee!
    One day he invites me toa party in the ‘church’, people saw me smoking and almost expel me from the ‘sacred place’ (the church car parking), calling the Priest to explain me ‘why I can’t smoke there). Haha, i never came back, they’re weird!!!
    o___º

  • silently

    hhmmm lets see everyone hear is saying what they think mormons believe.
    yet no one is actually talking to a mormon they are just talking about their own missunderstandings.
    dumb dumb dumb

  • Most of my family is Mormon. Any comment that I see as out right Ignorant I respond to. I know what mormons think. No matter how Weird(fucktarded) Mormons may be, I still understand the train of thought. Keep your generalizations to yourself… All of you.

  • JwJwBean

    COmment 103. I said I had called my mom who is a Mormon to ask how true these were. Her reply is in that comment. I also seem to remember I a lot of posts that they are either an exmormon, current mormon, or married to a mormon. Not all the posts, but many of them. And I belive the person who made the list was either Mormon, exmormon, or married to one.

  • Mystern

    I wrote the list and I was born and raised LDS and I know for a fact that all of these are correct.

  • Adia

    Mystern: I apologize for my not knowing about the murder thing. I’ve been going to church for sixteen years and it never occurred to me to seperate manslaughter from murder. I don’t disbelieve you, but where can I find that?

  • Mystern

    Adia: The difference has to do with intent. Ask your bishop. Manslaughter, is generally an accident. I know of one case in which deliberate murder was forgiven. During WWII a group of Jews were escaping a Nazi camp and one woman had a baby. They were wading across a river to escape and the baby started crying. The woman drowned the baby. Generally the Mormon church will not baptize someone who has committed murder but in this case an exception was made.

  • tommys

    mom424: In your comment #83, you said that Jehovah’s Witnesses must also tithe? Where did you get that?

    From all my time raised as a JW, I never knew that. I always thought one thing that made JW special was that all contributions were voluntary. In fact, all positions of the congregation is voluntary.

  • Jared

    It sounds like most of you have to much time on your hands, discussing things you know nothing about but hear through rumors. Gossip was made by the ignorant to spread lies and false stories. Satan used this tactic throughout the bible sending false prophets mingling scripture with the philosophy of man to lead the children of god away into his keep. If you want the truth as stated in the bible in the book of James 1: 5
    If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
    Jesus taught in parables so only those who where spiritually humble would understand the meaning of the symbolism he used. Those who were looking to condem him simply heard great stories but couldn’t understand.
    If you want to know the truth seek it from the source not people who have an agenda for negativity and belittlement. Why do you think of all religons The church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints is attack so viciously since it’s inseption. Maybe because Satan wants it to fail, thus using all his rescources including blogs like this to attack and attack and attack things that just maybe true. Why would anyone seek to destroy someone looking for God except they have evil in there own hearts. Remember Jesus said Charity is the pure love of christ and those who have this with them in the end will be well in the sight of god.
    Just a few things to ponder………….. Thanks for your time in reading this opinion I have read yours and have to agree to disagree with your gossip.

  • Mystern

    Jared: As the author of this list I would like to point out a few things. First and foremost, this list was meant not to poke fun at, or attack the LDS church in any way shape or form. I am a former member of the church, and I have a great respect for it, there are simply some things i do not agree with. As a member of the church, you must know that every item on this list is true and accurate and no scripture has been taken out of context. This list is not gossip, and the commentary of each item is purely informational.
    Secondly, you cannot tell me what I know and do not know. Believe me, I know far more about LDS doctrine than almost any average church member. Please do not insult me by telling me that I am discussing things that I have only heard through rumor and know nothing about.
    Third, I can assure you that I do not have any agenda of “negativity and belittlement.” I am not seeking to destroy anyone looking for God or anyone’s faith. While I personally believe standardized religion to be the opiate of the masses, I will be the first to admit that it is the only thread in many peoples lives.
    Fourth, it is only the opinion of the LDS church that they have been attacked more viciously than any other religion. Every religion has its naysayers and Mormons do not have any exclusive right to persecution.
    I do agree with you strongly on one aspect of your comment though, every man, woman, and child should definitely develop a personal relationship with a respective higher being, be it God, Buddha, Allah or simply the universe in general.

  • Yogi Barrister

    Well done Mystern, your list and your defense of of the rational mind, here in the comments section. The truth about the origins of Mormonism is more interesting than the myth. What you have is a gang of colorful Yankee scam artists from the early 19th Century pulling off one very long con.

  • Jared

    Yogi is showing my point of following without knowledge but a bias from an ex-mormon.
    I don’t issue any hate or negativism but wish those who want to express themselves to make a researched informed opinion from there own personal witness or experience.
    Mystern you indeed are the creator of this list to which you have a bias agenda whether you realize it or not. For your title in itself emphasizes your own belief you wish others to share with you. I do respect your opinion and have a great ability thanks to the God who led inspired men across a great ocean to “The Promise Land”, and created this “Light unto the world.” Freedom to speak, worship, and live as we may.
    To your point this list is not gossip and is not taken out of context I will say the list itself doesn’t consist of gossip but the 163 posts to this list IS. Out of this list show me ONE other than myself is not a negative towards the LDS church.
    “Only the opinion of the LDS Church” I think not. Nowhere in time has a free country with constutional rights to worship been attacked and hunted as the LDS church has been. There families slaughtered and women and children forced out into the snow without shoes or warm clothing. The tarring and feathering, attempted sodomy. Homes and land taken at the force of death in their wake. Ohio by order of Governer Boggs issued an “Extermination” order against free citizens of this country because of what they believed and tried to worship as their constitutional rights are. But because of fear of losing their power in government they sought their lives. This Extermination order for the lives of any who claimed to be a member of the LDS church were killed, forced to lose all they had, and was legal and in full effect until after 1970 when it was recinded. Blacks had their freedom from slavery, women had equal rights given them. Mormons were still legal to be killed under this order at these times. Not one other religon in a free country ever in history has had to endure these persistant perscutions.
    In final I wish those who think they know because of some literature they got or a opinion they heard would be willing to do some research, find out for themselves if these things are indeed attributed to the pecular people of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, over 13 million strong, in over 160 countries, over 100 languages, whose humanitarism leads in many regards one of the greatest. Mystern as you know being a former member as Jesus stated the work will go forth unto every nation, tongue, and people among the isles of the sea never to be taken again off the face of this earth until the glorious return of yours and my elder brother and savior to all man kind. We all must have our own testimony because you can only survive on borrowed light for so long. Have a great weekend everyone and God Bless.

  • Hi Jared. Your opinions matter here and I understand that, I would however like you to READ THE COMMENTS!

    “Out of this list show me ONE other than myself is not a negative towards the LDS church.”

    Me for one and if you are referring to comment 155., it was a quote. You can believe whatever you want, it’s psychos and Scientologists I don’t like.

    Your info is dated.
    Your stats are wrong.
    And like someone else said “That’s one impressive word salad”

    Question before you leave… You haven’t by any chance, recently, been to Texas have you?

  • Mystern

    Yogi: I try not to go into the early history of the church because it is difficult to separate fact from fiction.

    Crimanon: Jared’s stats are not all wrong. He is correct, there was an extermination order passed and he is correct that it is a law that fell into disuse and wasn’t bothered to be removed until the 1970’s. Also, this list deals primarily with the LDS church. The group in Texas were fundamentalists who were not sanctioned or recognized by the LDS church.

    Jared: First, I did not name this list. My original title used the word “odd” instead of “bizarre.”
    Second, I would like to point out comments 73, 76, 82, 89, 90, 94, 103 and 112 as comments that are not made to be negative. I did not include the ones that could be considered “questionable.”
    Third, while the extermination order was signed, state laws do not take precedence over federal law, and murder is against federal law. You must also consider in the early church history it wasn’t as much of a ‘religion’ as a religious movement. I would like to point out that while The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints may be the largest Mormon religion there about a dozen of them. It’s called the “Latter Day Saint movement.” The majority of persecution is directed at the non CJC-LDS groups. Those groups are also the ones who give Mormons a bad name.
    Finally, I agree that anyone who is curious about the LDS faith should seek out someone knowledgeable who can answer their questions in person. The LDS church is a wonderful institution, and I have a great respect for it.

  • Mystern: 160 countries? There are only 195. To say that mormons inhabit most of the earth is egotistical and an incredible embellishment of fact.

    Refer to —http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_intr.htm#stat—

    The “Order” could be something akin to the extermination of the Jews still practiced Now. Illegal, in Any form of hatred, is the killing of another man.

    Prominent officials —http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Day_Saint_political_history—

    They had a pretty good run, Pre-1970, for being killed. No more deaths than any other historical political run.

    New group on the block always catches some hell. It was no Holocaust and the only reason why LDS takes any heat now is because Extremists are the only “Mormons” that get any air time. Sure the garb is strange and the women hang out at the back of the church, how is that any different than Muslims or Jews? Your persecution has ended, relatively, Theirs keeps getting worse.

    If you want to stop the stewing emotions of the under-informed. You should bring LDS into a better light. I have yet to see One LDS leader speak out against polygamy. I think this Texas fiasco would be a good start. I’ve got a few Mormon friends who would join you.

  • Mystern

    Crimanon: Sorry for the misunderstanding. I said his stats were not all wrong. But I did not say they were all correct.
    You’re right though, in your statement about persecution. I agree completely.
    And as a last note about LDS leaders not speaking out against polygamy, there’s a reason. While polygamy has been officially abolished in current times, the Church still maintains that in Heaven there will be polygamy. You ask any church leader and they will tell you that polygamy has been abolished on earth, and they will likely be evasive when asked about polygamy in heaven. The official church stance is yes, there will be polygamy in heaven.

  • Forsake the flesh of the earth, so that we may feed as we wish in the heavens.- Me, just now.

  • Ashlee

    Hey guys! I just want you to know that I’m a mormon and those ten things listed are absolutely true and we do believe in them. However, I would highly encourage everyone who has anything bad to say about mormons that maybe you should get to know one and you will realize that we are normal everyday people just trying to live the best we can. Oh and for the record, we are not affiliated with the FLDS church that is all over the news these days. We do not curretnly practice polygamy. Yes, there was a time in the 1800’s when polygamy was practiced but only for a very short period of time. As with all religions it takes faith to believe in them. Logic sometimes just simply won’t do. God’s ways are mysterious but one day we will know the reasons for all of His works. I just ask that you please respect the mormon church and take the time to learn about it from credible sources such as a member themself or our church literature…Some examples are lds.org, The Book of Mormon, The Ensign, the LDS Missionaries and so on. Stop turning to the opinions of those who are not members of the church or those who have posted hateful things on the internet. Anyway, wow, that was a long post! Thanks for taking the time to read it.

    • pingping

      well said ashlee. . you didn't just defend the church, you also asked some people to be decent.

  • Rylan

    “Stop turning to the opinions of those who are not members of the church or those who have posted hateful things on the internet. Anyway, wow, that was a long post! Thanks for taking the time to read it.”

    Don’t worry, I laugh at all religious people regardless of their belief system. Just kidding :)

  • Jared

    Crimanon- About your issue about the churches stance on polygamy I would like to refer you to http://www.lds.org go to the scriptures and look in the Doctrine and Covenants, go to Declaration 1 and 2.

    Ashlee- Very well said indeed.

    Mystern-“Finally, I agree that anyone who is curious about the LDS faith should seek out someone knowledgeable who can answer their questions in person. The LDS church is a wonderful institution, and I have a great respect for it.”

    I appreciate your opinion and respect your view.

  • Jared: Why do you think I’m arguing with you? I said “I have yet to see One LDS leader speak out against polygamy.” I never said that they didn’t say it, I have yet to Meet/See/Hear, Personally/Television/Vid of an LDS leader. With the amount I watch the news (laughing mostly) I’ve yet to see even “low man on the pole” Romney speak out against what is happening in the news.

    MY POINT IS, this is the last time, If you (Mormons) are getting tired of the bad press Do Something About It! Even Sharpton stands up and goes “Hey, that’s not how it works!” when he gets heat from some ones twisted ideals.

    Do you need the permits for a picket line? A few extra bucks for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir? Dude, you’re a representative of your faith. Teach it, preach it, I don’t care what you do with it, But Defend It! And get these people to see what It is.

  • That one went way out there didn’t it? I should get something to drink.

  • Rylan

    “I appreciate your opinion and respect your view.”

    I don’t believe that faith and worship of the supernatural deserve respect. Tolerance, absolutely, but not respect.

  • YogiBarrister

    Jared, excuse me? WTF are you talking about? I’m not an ex-Mormon, nor am I biased against them. LDS beliefs are no more bizarre than most other religions, it’s just that you can prove that it is based on hooey. I’ve been studying the roots of Mormonism for some time now. I’ve got a rough draft of a screenplay about Smith and Co. I’m sorry dude, the golden plates were nonsense. The BOM was plagiarized, Joseph Smith was a con artist. It wasn’t a completely harmless lie either. Has it ever occurred to you that God’s greatest gift to man is his rational mind. For example, God has never created anything of substance that can only be seen by two people. That’s just not the way it works in this universe. And how pray tell, could the plates be invisible AND golden at the same time. You do know that Smith tried the same con later on by fabricating plates made out of copper. What’s up with that?
    My only real beef with Mormonism is that they blur the line between state and religion in Utah. They run “for profit” businesses and claim tax exempt status, even shopping malls.

  • YogiBarrister

    Mystern, now you are disappointing me. It’s not at all difficult to separate fact from fiction regarding Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. They were treasure hunters who used diving rods. It is completely irrational to believe there were golden plates that only Smith and Cowdery could see, that when translated, this allegedly ancient text, contained entire passages from a manuscript stolen from Walt Whitman’s publisher. Other entire passages are from another book that was written by someone known to Oliver Cowdery. Oh yeah, one other thing, most of the “information” about native Americans and pre-diaspora Jews is provably wrong. So was Moroni a fabrication or just an ill-informed prophet?

  • Ashlee

    If anyone here has ever studied the life of Joseph Smith you would see that this man was not a fake. Joseph Smith endured intense ridicule, violence,abuse, mockery, etc etc. No man would go through what he went through if it was false. He did not restore this church for his own fame or glory, he restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the earth.He gives all the glory to God. He was a very faithful man who God trusted to bring about His work. Like I said earlier, when it comes to God and His purposes there are some things that you just have to trust and have faith in whether or not it makes any logical sense at all. I mean I will admit that it sounds a little strange that God and Jesus Christ appeared to a 14 year old boy but it also sounds strange that a man by the name of Moses parted the Red Sea…it all comes down to faith and a confirmation of the truth of things through prayer and study. The mormon church does not worship Joseph Smith but we do regard him as a wonderful prophet. We worship Jesus Christ. Take yourself back to the times when Jesus was on the earth and ask yourself would you have believed Him back then? A man born of humble beginnings claiming to be the Son of God? How do you think the people back then knew it was Him? They had faith and believed His words. I liken that to a man by the name of Joseph Smith who claimed to be a prophet of God…its a test of faith right. Not to say I compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ-there is no man who has ever walked the earth like Him-he is the real Son of God.But, from my own personal experience I have studied the Book of Mormon, prayed about it, and received a personal confirmation in my heart that this was true. I respect the things that others believe and always wonder why it is people spend so much time and energy trying to disprove something that others hold dear. Why not use your time and energy and invest in the things you do believe in?

  • Ashlee “If anyone here has ever studied the life of Joseph Smith you would see that this man was not a fake.” How do you explain L. Ron Hubbard? He went through said “intense ridicule, violence,abuse, mockery, etc etc” And he was Certified insane.

  • YogiBarrister

    Ashlee, I would suggest that only someone who has not investigated Joseph Smith would believe what you just wrote. He was a con artist. I know him much better than you do. I think he and his cronies were a colorful band of thieves, and truth interests me more than fiction.
    If you get comfort from Mormon mythology, then be my guest. Whatever helps you get through this life is OK by me. For myself however, God is rational thought. I trust that God, if he or she exists, only gave me five senses for a good reason. If you want to know God, you must understand the laws of physics.
    BTW I didn’t set out to prove or disprove anything. I knew nothing about Mormons until I picked up some literature. I actually believed there were plates made from gold, that were dug up right near my ancestral home in New York State. When I found out that only Smith and Cowdery could see them, I dismissed the religion entirely.

  • Zelph

    You call those your top 10 bizarre beliefs? I can come up with a lot more kookie ones than that and I was raised Mormon.

    1.You need a secret password and handshake to get into heaven.
    2.If you don’t accept the doctrine of polygamy, you will be damned (D&C 132:1-6)
    3.God lives near a gigantic planet named Kolob that is so massive it takes 1,000 years for one revolution. (Book of Abraham 3:2-4)
    4.Joseph Smith put a magic rock into a hat and looked at the rock to translate the Book of Mormon. He did not use gold plates or the Urim and Thumim in the translation process. This rock is called a seer stone and is currently in possession of the LDS church.
    5.Joseph Smith taught that there are people that look like quakers that live on the moon and live over 1,000 years old.
    6.Joseph Smith was not wearing temple garments the day he was shot and killed. Members are instructed to wear them day and night as a shield and protection.
    7.Joseph Smith had over 30 wives. His first plural wife was Fannie Alger and she was 16 and a housekeeper at the Smith’s house. His first wife Emma knew nothing about this until she walked in on them. Joseph was around 27-28 at this time.
    8.Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks and women. Elijah Abel was a 70. Women and blacks were denied the priesthood under Brigham Young. Blacks can currently have the priesthood.
    9.Joseph Smith lived in a small farm house and shared a small room with 5 brothers. The angel Moroni was supposed to appear to him, but didn’t wake anyone else in the room up.
    10.Brigham Young taught that Adam was actually God the father and that Eve was one of God’s many wives that he brought down from heaven.

    Now THOSE are bizarre Mormon beliefs.

    • Megan

      #5 was actually taught by Brigham Young

  • Ashlee

    A con artist huh? Well, I truly am sad that is how you choose to view Joseph Smith. I hope one day that will change. Not to say that I’m hoping you will one day convert, but I hope that you can see this man for who he really was. Many people called Christ a con-artist, a liar, and I’m sure every other name in the book but He performed a work that changed mankind.Joseph Smith restored that work. But those that really knew Him (the Savior), knew that He was the Son of God. Those that have taken the time to study His words, believe and love the Savior. That is the same as with Joseph Smith in my eyes. I have taken the time to study and learn and pray about knowing if he really was a prophet of God and if he really performed such a marvelous restoration. I cannot doubt that he is not a prophet. I think it is important for you to seek out and understand why it was that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were the only ones who God wanted to view and translate the gold plates.
    Try as you might to prove the mormon church wrong but you will never succeed. That may sound harsh, but I am willing to stand up for something I and so many people believe in. Something that has changed so many peoples lives and brought joy and happiness into millions of peoples hearts and homes. You might be able to assist in changing someones mind by logic, but only God can change someones heart with the truth.

  • YogiBarrister

    Ashlee, Joseph Smith is everything to everyone. To you, he is a divine being, to me he is an extremely interesting con man. If my movie about him ever gets made, I want Daniel Day-Lewis or Ian McShane to play him.
    You’re wrong about one thing though. I could prove beyong a shadow of a doubt that BOM is a fraud. There is no way in heaven or hell that the most brilliant Mormon scholar ever, could win a serious argument on the subject. BTW I learned all about why God only wanted only Smith and Cowdery to be able to see* the plates from reading THE EMPEROR’S NEW CLOTHES.
    * you used the word view instead of see. This is imprecise language. These plates were supposed to be a physical entities that were buried in the ground. How did they transform themselves from solid gold objects to something that nobody can see? Why were they buried in a 19th Century crate used to ship windows?

  • YogiBarrister

    Ashlee, why isn’t the universe as it really is, miraculous enough for you? Yeah Smith was a con artist( actually he committed many more serious crimes), but he was a man of his day. All white men back then used religion as a way to brutalize the natives. That is the way of the world unfortunately, and is the reason why I’m skeptical of all religious dogma, and a straight out disbeliever in the phony “miracles” performed by con men.

  • Ashlee

    That is your interpretation and opinion. I will never argue religion or point figures or accuse and I ask that you give me the same respect. Please don’t tell me how I view others and the way the world is. Religion is a personal matter and I respect others for what they believe as long as they live what they believe. However, I do not respect others who try to argue or criticize others beliefs. The mormon church will never be disproven but it will continue to spread throughout the earth and bless peoples lives.

  • YogiBarrister

    Ashlee, this conversation is going nowhere. You believe that a prophet from ancient times, living on the American continent, buried golden plates in a 19th Century crate, that contain childishly misinformed “facts” about Native Americans and Jews. You also believe that Joseph Smith dug these up, so they must have material substance, yet they are invisible to the objective observor, who can only see the wooden box that Joseph Smith says contains them. I’m sorry, but the Invisible Spaghetti God is much more credible.
    As a social institution, I’m sure the modern LDS has a lot to offer. I have no objections to Mormonism. I’m only interested in Joseph Smith, he was the Jim Jones of his day. If any man in your temple starts behaving like Joseph Smith, you best flee for your life.

  • YogiBarrister

    Sometimes two seemingly opposite ideas can be equally true. While it might be true that children who believe in Santa Claus are happier than those who don’t, for me personally, one of the most joyful moments of my life was when my older brother, not only told me there was no Santa Claus, he and I snuck downstairs to watch my parents setting up the presents. I loved finding out that truth, not only because of the love I felt for my parents at the moment, but because my rational mind was having difficulty wrapping itself around the logistical problems that Santa Claus faced. Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus, and the truth of Santa Claus is even more joyous than giving and getting Christmas presents.

  • Mystern

    YogiBarrister: When I said that it was difficult to separate fact from fiction I was referring to church history, not the history of Joseph Smith. There are few unbiased original writings that document the beginnings of the church. The life of Joseph Smith may be another matter, I don’t really know, having never had the inclination to study it.

    Ashlee: I think it’s awesome that you have such faith. I wish I could have had as much faith as you. My two cents on the matter are simply this, I don’t know. I have no way of verifying one way or the other. I will be the first to admit that there is something to the LDS faith. People do receive answers and I have seen many miraculous things preformed by priesthood holders. However, I have seen the same kind of power used outside of the church. My personal beliefs are that there is a power in the universe that can be tapped into through multiple means. I’ve seen studies on the power of prayer (not of the LDS faith), and I’ve personally felt power cast by a Wiccan. There is definitely something out there, but I’m not the person to ask what.

    Zelph: I did not include any temple rites on this list. They are kept secret enough to be unverifiable to the average person. I would like to know where you get some of your other facts though. I was always taught that the seer stone(s) was the Urim and Thumim. You are correct about Kolob, I thought I covered that in number 1 on the list. I knew that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy but I am curious to know where you got ‘over 30 wives’ from. I also knew that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks and women and I have never had a satisfactory answer on this matter from any church official. Many of Brigham Young’s teachings have been officially de-canonized by the church, including his teachings about Adam. And it’s fairly easy to explain how J. Smith’s brothers were not woken, Moroni was a freaking angel. If I were God I would give my angels some pretty phenomenal power.

  • Ashlee

    Thank you for your comment Mystern and for respecting me even though we may differ in our beliefs. I don’t believe that religion should ever divide people but, unfortunately, it does happen. I would just hope that anyone who has ever questioned the mormon church would take the time to learn more about it from a credible source and maybe even attend a sacrament meeting and if you find that it is not for you, then its not for you. No harm done.
    As to things pertaining to God, some things cannot and will not be “proven” to us. If God proved everything to us how would he teach us faith? How would we learn to trust in Him? When something is right He will let us know in our heart but it takes work on our part to seek and study it out in our mind and heart. Again, I would invited everyone here to look at the church’s official website http://www.lds.org. I’m not saying that you should convert to mormonism, but just take the time to understand. I think you will be surprised to realize that many of the members of this church are amazing, respectable people.
    The questions about polygamy are very valid and I completely understand why it is brought up so often when people talk about the mormon church. The truth is, we don’t know why polygamy was practiced when it was. But, that is how God intended things to be at that time. When polygamy ended, it ended abruptly and has not been practiced since. If you ask me, and from some of my study on this topic, polygamy was very hard for the people to practice back then. It took so much faith on their part to go through with it for such a short time but “thy will be done” was the attitude of the pioneers. I know that this may not be a sufficient answer for you, but thats all we’ve been taught. Our modern day prophets have come right out and said we don’t know why but we know that is how it was to be at that time.
    The comment about women receiving the priesthood is absolutely untrue. No woman in this church has ever recieved the priesthood and never will. However, the FLDS church does practice this. We are in no way affiliated with this church.

  • Zelph

    (188. Mystern)

    Many people have mistaken the seer stone with the Urim and Thumim, but they are different things. A good source (by an LDS author) is a biography of Joseph Smith in a book entitled “Rough Stone Rolling” by Richard Bushman. If you are interested in a biography from a church historian, that is a good book to look at.

    Bushman points out that some people that were close to Joseph mistakenly referred to the seer stone as the Urim and Thummim.

    The seer stone is a rock that Joseph found in 1822 when he was digging a well. This was a year before he was visited by the angel Moroni in 1823, and Joseph doesn’t receive the gold plates or the Urim and Thummim until 1827. In fact, one of the most odd things about the story is that Joseph told people he could find buried treasure with his seer stone and charged them for it. He never found anything, but he was arrested in 1826(a year before taking possession of the gold plates or the Urim and Thummim) for a crime that they called “glass looking”. He used this same method to find buried treasure as he did to translate most of the Book of Mormon. Any credible LDS or non-LDS historian will tell you this.

    The names of Joseph Smith’s wives are found in the records of the church.

    Here is Joseph Smith’s ancestral file from the church’s genealogical record.

    http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167

    For more info regarding the ages of the women he married, the names and dates as well as the names of living men that the women were already legally married to (yes, that is correct, Joseph Smith married women that were also married to living men) visit this site:

    http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

    How about this for a strange belief:

    The garden of Eden was in Missouri.

  • pinklady

    haha i find this kind of funny… idk why

  • Isista

    I really liked this list. I enjoyed how it presented facts, without being negative toward the religion itself. I don’t follow organized religion myself, because IMO most are only out for personal gain (that’s my opinion, please don’t argue with me. It’s based on things I’ve seen within my own church). But I enjoy learning about what others belief.

  • Jettboy

    The only objection I have is the idea that not paying tithing can keep someone from salvation is a weird idea. It makes me wonder how many people have read the Old Testament, I mean really? The idea of a cures for not paying tithing comes from Malachi 3: 7-10:

    “7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

    8 ¶ aWill a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

    9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

    10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”

    Although it is more about honesty, the New Testament isn’t so forgiving for someone who doesn’t pay tithing like they promise. It starts out in Acts 4: with the new Christians giving everything they have to the Church membership, “32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that bought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.”

    In the next chapter a couple doesn’t give everything and ends up dead:

    “1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

    2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

    3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

    4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

    5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

    6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

    7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

    8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

    10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

    11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”

    Those who think Mormonism is strange (especially while other religions are not) are either hypocritical or ignorant. I would love to see someone talk about the beliefs of Muslims and Hindus. In fact, I would like someone to honestly go through the Jewish and Christian scriptures in relation to strangeness. There are only two reasons modern Christianity is not seen as strange. The first is the longevity and social acceptance of the beliefs and second because most of the modern Christians (even those who call themselves Evangelicals) have rejected or ignored most of the Bible.

    By the way, can someone define “Bizarre?” What makes something bizarre as opposed to not bizarre? I contend it is a highly subjective term by those who object to things they don’t believe. It says far more about personal taste than it does the subject under discussion.

  • Richard

    As a member of this faith I am a little disturbed by some of these comments, at least the ones saying that our doctrine conflicts with the bible.

    the majority, if not all, can be directly traced to the bible. granted the wording may be different as well as context of the verse.

    As for the wording of the book of mormon, JS translated it from a people who spoke in a very proper manner. So can you really be suprised that he at least attempted to convey that formality with Elizabethian verse which was taught during the 1800s as proper English?

    As for the things not directly found in the bible at first glance, remember that the bible itself was not always many books compiled into the Holy Book we hold in our hands today. At the time just after the apostles they were just many manuscript that were constantly being copied and handed out to the masses, ever seen pop art? If you keep making a copy of a copy say a hundred or so different times, the last copy you made almost looks completely differnt than the original. Also, the book we know as the bible today was compiled into its current form by popular vote and not by direct revelation from God.Many of the books “Christians” considerd to be doctrine were left out and proclaimed, once again by popular vote, “Apocrapha” and heretical. A similer event happend when the Jewish Rabbis compiled the Old Testiment into the Torrah we know today.

    We veiw the Book of Mormon as a more true set of scriptoral doctrine simply because the text was translated directly from the firsthand accounts from the Golden plates.

    as for the List itself above, not bad.

    I see little if any bias.

    if any of you need an explanation for these things let me know, I am happy to answer any questions, no matter how weird. You can Contact me at [email protected]

  • TheNRP

    Two bits of the best advice ever
    Hate the sin, not the sinner
    and
    The Church is always true, the people not so

  • trueldsgirl

    Ok, so first of all I’d like to say that this is actually one of the only lists on the internet that doesn’t completely misinterpret the Mormon religion. But I would like to say a few things… Yes, we do believe in tithing, it is common in most churches but, yes, we do believe it mandatory. But that is not because we “want your money” as dangorironhide may think. We use the tithes we pay to help to strenthen and build our church. We also give money to those in need, if you look up any major natural disaster in the last 10 years (or even farther back) you will find information on how The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (yes we are called Mormons, but that is just a nick name and prefer to be called by the true name of the church)helped greatly, in each incident, take Hurricane Katrina for example. For #9, yes we don’t drink coffee or tea or alcohol, and we don’t smoke or do drugs… but this is not a completely unnautral idea. There are many others in this world who abstain from these things for the same reasons we do… they are hurtful to our bodies so why then should we drink or use them?? I think that #8 was explained very well in the listing above. #6 and #7 are probably the two that make us stand out the most from other Christian religions. We believe that a prophet, currently President Thomas S. Monson, lives on the earth today and gives revelation to us from God. We believe him to be just as an ancient day Moses because he gives us direction that helps us to all live more righteous lives and to grow closer to God, and our Savior Jesus Christ. Being a Mormon, I don’t quite understand why the idea of the Book of Mormon can seem so far fetched. It is a record of the people who lived in the Americas during the same time period as the bible was being written. In John 10:16 Jesus states “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold and them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice and there shall be one fold and one shepard” (if that is not completely written correctly i was doing it off the top of my head so i am very sorry). But if all Christians believe in the Bible, then they would believe that Jesus said this, and we believe that the people in the Americas are the some of the people that he referred to here as other sheep.
    I also agree with all that the other Mormons who have posted comments here have said and would like to state again that the listing was put together very well, but that I am sad about some of the comments.
    I would like to put one final thing out there… There are so many different Christian churches but none of them are really ridiculed as much as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is. Why is that?

  • Heather

    Man, you are so right. I was raised Mormon & all of these are correct. Thanks to that upbringing, I am now an Athiest. Mormons are nutso dude!

  • laura

    One day maybe the Mormons posting on here will find the truth and leave the religion. Not saying that Mormons aren’t good people per say, but the religion is very strange and cult like.

    Most Mormons are raised Mormon and don’t know any better–that’s why they are so astute on it being good and right. I guess if I were born in Utah then there would’ve been a good chance I’d be Mormon. Very thankful I wasn’t born there.

    I became friends with a person that left Mormonism and the things they told me were very strange.

    And I can’t believe that they HAVE to tithe. Religion should be free. It doesn’t mean you love God any less.

  • Ashlee

    Laura,
    I think you have been misinformed about tithing. Members of the Mormon church do not HAVE to tithe. As with all things in the Mormon church you have your agency to decide what you will and will not do. Paying tithing doesn’t mean you love God more or less than the next person. It is more a sign of obedience and a trust that God will bless you with spiriutal and temporal things. When He see’s His children sacrifice their money He blesses them immensely. I know this to be true because as a member of this church I have paid a full tithe this whole year and have literally been blessed in so many ways but mostly financially.
    When it comes to things like religion I am always surprised that instead of people exploring it themselves they take others word for it. There are alot of rumors out there and false information about the Mormon church. I encourage everyone who has any question or is uncomfortable with something they’ve heard about this church to go to a trusted source and find out the real truth. Be it the missionaries, a Bishop, a trused online source like lds.org, etc.. I promise you if you do this, you will find out that we are not a cult like church and this church is the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ back on the earth today. There is nothing weird or strange about us. I promise!!
    Also, I think another misunderstanding about this church is that everyone from Utah is a member and somehow were tricked into it or live in a “bubble” which causes us to be blind followers of a false church. Let me tell you that if you were to come to Utah you would find that many people here are not of the Mormon faith. But, the thing that I think you’d be most surprised about is if you came here you’d find that the people who are true followers of this church know without a doubt it is true and live happy lives and are very normal people. I was born into the Mormon church which I am thankful for everyday. But I had to make the decision for myself and explore the religion and other religions by myself to know that it is true. I respect and find alot of good things in other religions but for me my happiness and faith lies in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That is just me though. But one thing that is awesome about life is that if you say you know something, nothing anyone really says can change something that you know to be true.
    If there is anything I can do to help let me know. I don’t have the most eloquent way of writing because I am a simple girl but I do have an understanding of this church and more importantly of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father and am more than willing to share that with others.
    Hope everyone has a great Sunday!

  • Mystern

    Ashlee,
    You are increct. While it’s true Mormons believe in agency, one of the requirements of gaining a temple recomend is paying tithing, and one of the requirements of going to the Celestial Kingdom is a temple recommend. Therefore, it must logically follow that Mormons *must* pay tithing to get into heaven.

  • Ashlee

    Mystern I appreciate your comment. Looking at it from that perspective sure yes it is required. However, the way it was implied or the way I interpreted what was said is that in order to be a member of this church you must pay tithing, which would be incorrect. I apologize if I misinterpreted what was said but yes, you are right, you must pay tithing in order to get a temple recommend.

  • Mystern

    Ashlee,
    Out of curiousity, what’s the point of the Mormon religion? I was raised (in the LDS faith) to believe that the purpose of life was to live with God again. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but wouldn’ that also logically follow that the point of life is to get a temple recommend? Thus logically the point of life is to pay tithing. I’m not saing it’s required to live, or to be a member of the religion, only that it’s required to obtain the ultimate goal of the religion. Lastly, just a qote directly from the list:

    “LDS theology states that in order to make it to the highest kingdom of heaven, you must pay a full and honest tithe.”

  • Ashlee

    Mystern,
    I can see the logic in what you are saying and yes, you are right one of the purposes of life is to live with God again. But, just because someone holds a temple recommend that in no way means they are going to automatically live with God again. A temple recommend is not a ticket into heaven. If only it were that easy;) If the purpose of life was to have a temple recommend I would have accomplished my life’s purpose and I am still in my 20’s! There is much more to it. I hope I can explain what I mean by anwering your next question.
    What is the point of the mormon religion? I would answer that by saying it is to become like Christ. While it is so important what we do in this life, it is even more important what we become in this life. Someone can spend there whole life going through the motions of doing something just because they are told to but it is quite another thing when someone has a desire to do what is right and through doing so has a change of heart and becomes a better person because of it. So how do we become like the Savior? Through commandments and doing what God asks of us. He commands us,His children, to do things to help teach us to become like His Son Jesus Christ. Commandments are in our best interest and a way of teaching us. Since we are on the topic of tithing we will use that as an example. We are asked to pay a 10% tithe of our income. Tithing in the LDS church is used towards things such as building temples, church buildings, paying for missionaries, assisting the needy, etc. etc. The Savior paid the ultimate sacrifice for us and He has asked us to pay 10% of our earnings. What a small price to pay right? Tithing is a way to give something of ourselves. It is a built in way to be charitable and help contribute to a greater cause.
    I will admit I have not always paid tithing. Not because I didn’t want to but because I was a poor money manager and would simply forget. It was about 2 years ago when I made the concious effort to pay my tithing everytime I got a paycheck. I wanted to gain a testimony of tithing and had the desire to learn the importance of it. I can honestly testify that since that time my life has been blessed immenslely in both temporal and spiritual things. I have become so much better with my money and haven’t ever been left needing for anything. I have gained a greater understanding of charity and the priviledge I have each month to give something that I’ve worked for has helped me to realize how blessed I am to have what I have. 10% is such a small price to pay to show gratitude to my Savior. There are so many ways we show our gratitude to Him and this is just one of the many ways.
    It is such a wonderful blessing and priviledge to be able to pay tithing. Everything we have on this earth we owe to our Heavenly Father and His Son. Everything.
    I hope this has helped others to understand why members of this church pay tithing. Thanks for giving me the chance to explain and not just assuming:)

  • Rutkowskilives

    Good post, Ashlee.

    The important thing is obedience to the commandments God gives his children. Tithing is just one commandment. The goal should be to obey all of them.

    Sadly, I think the commandments are often misunderstood and viewed as punishment or restriction, when really the commandments help us to learn and like Ashlee said, become more like Christ.

    It’s a lot simpler than it’s often thought to be.

  • Britishlad

    With regards tithing: How much, then, should you give? That is a question that you must resolve for yourself. The depth of your own heart appreciation for God—not some predetermined tithing formula—will determine what you give. As the Bible urges: “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver(2 conrinthains 9:7). Tithing was a provision of the Mosaic Law covenant to support Israel’s temple and priesthood. For us today, it is neither commanded nor necessary. So this idea of tithing was abloished by jesus’s death. What happens if you or sick or loose your job God understands that you wont be able to give as much. And on the other hand if you have more money than others it will be helpful to give more than 10%.

    I am not a mormon and i respect their beliefs, but i would really encourage you to seek the truth before preaching false teachings.

  • Rutkowskilives

    Britishlad, one of the beliefs unique to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) is that God is in communication with His chosen prophets in this modern world. As such, the commandment of tithing has been renewed, and it has been explained that an honest tithe is 10%. Now, charitable giving beyond that point is certainly encouraged, but the commandment as revealed currently is that 10% of our income is devoted to the Lord.

    Interestingly, before tithing was renewed as a commandment it was revealed to Joseph Smith that the members of the church should obey a law of consecration, similar to the law of consecration referred to in the New Testament after the Savior’s resurrection. This was a higher law, and unfortunately, the membership was not up to living at that standard. The Lord then reintroduced the commandment of tithing and that has been the revealed standard and is currently practiced in the Mormon faith.

    My comment preached nothing false. In the realm of Mormon theology, tithing is a commandment and has been explained as 10%. If you feel that Mormon theology is false, then I suggest the burden is on you to determine whether God has chosen a prophet in modern days, and if so, does this prophet reside in the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? If the prophet doesn’t, it’s false, if the prophet does, I would think the religion bears some serious investigation and the tenents of the religion demand some application to each individual’s life.

    As a close to another thing you pointed out, God understands when there are times when we are not in a position to give. We often forget that the commandments are not for God, but for man. God doesn’t need our tithes and offerings – we need the lessons learned from sacrifice, so that we can become a cheerful giver.

    Obedience to the commandments as we understand them is what matters most.

  • MJ

    I’m mormon and thought the list was pretty okay.

    I liked how you didn’t use scriptures out of content. Personally, most of the principles I use the bible to confirm as well. Having modern revelation is good, but the Lord said, that in the mouth or two or three witnesses should every word be established. But good overall.

    A little unfair to use the word bizarre, but hey its attention drawing.

    I taught for two years in the south eastern united states. Including clearwater, florida home of Scientology. I didn’t realize how long it had been around, there were members of it that were born into it that had only heard of Christ. That was a change of pace, because usually I started lessons off thinking that most people knew about the Savior.

    People would slam doors on me thinking I was a Jehovah’s Witness, but I’d yell before they closed it, “We’re not Jehovah’s witnesses!” Then they’d usually open the door and let us in. lol

    be honest with you guys, we mormons have more in common with you then with them. We believe in the Savior Jesus Christ, that he will fulfill his promise to return again in the fullness of his Glory. we mormons believe in doing what we can to prepare for that day, that by His grace we may become perfect in Christ.

    Neither Jehovah’s witnesses or Scientology believe in the Savior. Jehovah’s witnesses believe that he failed in his mission, Scientology denies his divinity as the Son of God, the creator of the heavens and the earth.

    Garments are a personal issue, not all mormons wear them. I’m glad it was not on the list, I find it a little offensive to have my undies talked about.

    But I can tell you that the purpose of the garments is to be a physical reminder of covenants temple going members have made to walk obedient to all the commandments of God found in the Holy Scriptures, to abstain from sin, and to follow Christ holding ourselves to a higher degree of accountability, in return we are promised that the Lord will protect us spiritually and physically so that by his grace we can fulfill our promise.

  • MJ

    Mystern,

    Your logic is very on key, but let me point out this missing piece with this question.

    If the Lord asked for that which was most precious to you, would you give it to him?

    Titheing is very minimal part of this principle. the higher law would be to say, to give up everything. Just as Christ asked the Rich young man to give all that he had to the poor and to follow him. We must be willing to do likewise.

    The tithe itself does not save. LDS theology also teaches that if a man giveth a gift grudgingly it profiteth him nothing. The idea of the tithe, or even fasting (abstaining from food or drink for 24 hours) all points to a spiritual submission to the spirit of God. if your heart is in the wrong place all the money in the world will not win you salvation. but the principle of giving the Lord your broken heart and contrite spirit, giving up the natural man, and following after the example of Christ in all things. In Malachi the lord promises that he will give more abundantly to those that he tithes. btw tithe literally means a tenth. So tithing is also biblical.

  • MJ

    laura,
    Most mormons were not born in the church. the vast majority of its members are converts, just like my parents. I would say I am in a way since my parents were not exactly the strictest mormons, lol.

    I served a two year mission of my own free choice, then I served in the military for two years. The idea of service was distilled in me from the Mormon faith.

    We are not cult like, but I do realize that many try to portray us that way. We’re normal people, with normal jobs. Not all of us like Mitt Romney, just because he’s mormon, I actually think that he’s as much a lying politician as the rest of them. in my opinion.

    true mormonism isn’t found in the culture of the church, which I am sad to confess, has made many doubt the message of the religion of the church. I hope that principle is clear: there is a difference between Mormon CULTURE and the CHURCH. I should say USA MORMON CULTURE, members in other countries don’t seem to have the problems we do here in the US. Utah mormons are an example of this, as the phenomenon of being in a “bubbled” community has caused many of the mormons growing up in the church to take the religion for granted and rebel against it. But this is a problem shared by many faiths in the United States and is not unique to the Mormon church.

  • Mystern

    Ashlee:
    I did not mean to infer that everyone with a temple recommend is going to heaven, and if I did, please accept my apologies. I simply meant to say that tithing is indeed a requirement to go to heaven.
    MJ: Thanks for your comment, but it raises the question in my mind, what is that which is considered most important. It astounds me the value placed on money. I’m a vain, egocentric person through and through, and I value money, however it’s far from the most important thing in my life. If god asked me personally, I don’t know that I would give up my son, I honestly don’t. As far as everything else, I might. It depends. One of the major issues I have with religion is also a major tenant of it; Believe and you shall be given proof of your belief. Seems a little backwards to me, but then again, that’s what faith is all about right?

  • Britishlad

    Can someone please explain this belief about tithing it still doesnt make sense to me because i have studied the truths from the bible and it clearly states that when jesus died he abolished the law of commandments consisting in decrees recoreded at Ephesians (2vs15)(check it out for yourself) In other words, in God’s eyes the Law was no longer binding on either Jews or Christians. Hence, along with other features of the Law, such as regular sacrifices at the temple, tithing was no longer required of the faithful. If mormons still keep the commandments do you sacrafice animals in your church?
    In ancient Israel, tithing was commanded under the Mosaic Law in order to support God’s temple workers, the Levites and the priests. These had no tribal lands other than certain cities, so they needed this special support. If we should still follow the command of tithing where does it state it in the bible? and i dont mean from your book of mormon i would appreciate this thanks

  • Ashlee

    Britishlad,
    This is the fist biblical scripture that came to mind regarding tithing:
    Numbers 18:26

  • Britishlad

    Your right it states about giving a tenth part but this scripture was talking about this levites but the difference today is we have no special priestly class nor a body of sanctuary workers who cannot own land or are otherwise prevented from using their hands to the full in caring for their material needs. All the members of spiritual Israel are a “holy priesthood. So when it talks about tithing here it does apply to us.

  • Britishlad

    just to add an examination of the Christian Greek Scriptures gives no indication that members of the first-century church had to pay tithes so why should we today?

  • MJ

    Mystern,
    You raise a good concern. I do not believe faith is blind and if it is, then a person is practicing something other than faith. Even Paul described that there are some evidences associated with faith. One of which is to first see the faith of others in action. One receives the first seed of faith by being preached to. Whether by voice of the Lord or one of his servants. The book of Mormon also re-enforces that faith is a hope of things unseen, but are true. True faith leads to something. there is a cause and then a reaction. Whether by faith a person repents. Or by faith a prophet moves a mountain. There is a manifestation of faith in action. True faith and virtue are always in company one with another. And Faith and Virtue lead naturally to gain a knowledge for yourself. (see 2 Peter 1:3-10)

    As Christ and many prophets have repeated that a good fountain cannot bring forth evil water, neither can a evil fountain bring forth good water. The same analogy has been made with trees and fruit. So by their fruits you shall know them.

    tithing is a good example to express this principle. If tithing doesn’t benefit the payer, then what value does it have? If none, then do not pay, but it you pay with real intent, I promise that the Lord’s word will be fulfilled that he spoke through Malachi that he will “open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that you shall not have room to receive it.” Mal 3:10

    That is a pattern in which to prove all things. And this is a Christian principle as Paul taught in Thessalonians 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” Try it, see if it doesn’t work. Its the same invitation I gave many times as a missionary. I never wanted to bring someone into the Church unless that themselves had been converted by the Holy Spirit of God, I take modern revelation very seriously when it is said that we shall not bring any unto Baptism except they come forth with fruit meet for repentance. This is fruit is shown in the way they conduct their life and see if the gospel has brought positive and meaningful change to how they worship the Father in the name of Christ.

    This is the invitation of the Book of Mormon:
    ” 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”

    The Spirit will manifest with power to your heart, if you sincerely will follow that prompting then the Lord promises you his Spirit in greater abundance. Thus you learn, line upon line, and precept upon precept. Proving each step.

    Sacrifice has not been done away with, but what is to be sacrifice has changed. We don’t sacrifice fat of rams, or animals, or burn anything with fire. We sacrifice our sins. We put our sins on the alter and we promise to give them up. we put the spiritual man before the carnality of the natural man.

    And with the promise that comes of the spirit, this faith is not blind, but you will be able to prove every principle as it is revealed through obedience and as you receive grace for grace. Grace because the Lord doesn’t have to strengthen us, he doesn’t have to guide us, but he does and he gives us the strength to overcome our sins. Once he helps us conquer our sins in our lives, we are forgiven by the Power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

    Mormons are not that bizarre. We are only doing what we can to fulfill the commandments Christ gave, so that we can fulfill the promises of God and Christ.

    “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ” Romans 8:17

  • winklestein

    I sincerely hope that those criticizing Mormons in the comments are not Christians.Talk about hypocrisy!If Mormons are “weird”,then so are Christians of every type.
    There is no “God on Earth”,never was ,never will be.

  • MJ

    Brtishlad,

    Its true. Tithing is the lesser law. And there are some indications that perhaps Church of Jesus Christ during his time practiced the higher law of consecration. Wherein you gave up all your possessions to the benefit of the poor of the church. This principle may be indicated by the rich man whom Christ invited to follow him and to give all his possessions away to the poor. In this principle the wealth of everyone is used to support the church and its people, while funds and resources are distributed according to needs, righteous wants, and abilities to produce to more. This principle can be seen in the parable of the talents, and also in the phrase that to whom much is given, much is required.

    The church in this dispensation attempted the higher law of the tithe, but were unfaithful to it, and so the Lord established the lesser law of the tithe, to support the work of building up the kingdom of God on the earth.

    One day the church hopes to re-establish this law in order to establish the ideal of Zion. that day, in my belief, will not come until technology has sufficiently improved to allow the labors of men to be done more conveniently and allows for them to have their needs provided for. Then it will be true of what the old testament prophets have said about the re-established Zion, that it will truly be an inheritance given by the grace of God. I believe, even at this time the Lord is quickening the understanding of righteous men to push forward technology that are not interested in making money, or fame, but in doing good to all men, no matter the cost. This is the spirit of the law of consecration.

    Until the church as a people sanctify themselves to live up to this, to always be their brother’s keeper, then the Lord will require the lesser law of the tithe, to prepare his people.

    So in answer, we do not keep it because of the law of Moses, we keep it because it is the revealed law of the Lord, and the promises of its fulfillment and blessings can be found in the experience of the ancient old testament prophets.

  • MJ

    excuse me
    “The church in this dispensation attempted the higher law of the tithe, but were unfaithful to it, and so the Lord established the lesser law of the tithe, to support the work of building up the kingdom of God on the earth.”

    Should read,
    “…higher law of consecration…

  • MJ

    “in my belief”

    should read

    “in my opinion”

  • MJ

    As I may not always be on this forum, if any would like to keep in contact with me, or see other things I have written. I do a lot of writing on my facebook page. :)

    I’m mormon, return missionary, iraq war vet, and currently an mechanical engineering student.

    My email is [email protected]

  • MJ

    You know what would be a great list? Things that Mormons believe (Culture) that the church doesn’t teach.
    kind of like a CULTURE VS RELIGION type thing. being 24 and in a congregation full of single adults that mostly don’t know what they are talking about is extremely frustrating. lol. I’m sorry to anyone who has ever been confused by someone that ha professed faith and a testimony, but have not be faithful to either.

    We all have had our experience with even some of the best members of different faiths not living up to the standard of what they believe.

    Everyone here have been great in discussing this list. And I apologize on behalf of those LDS members that I see have made personal attacks on any of you. Such is not our way, well… supposed to be, but we are working on it. ;)

  • Britishlad

    Morning, i appreciate all your replys in explaining the issue of tithing i am a christain and i dont think mormons are weird at all its encouraging how they do the preaching work as i do to, but its good to preach the truth from the Bible so i believe many things that you believe from the bible but none of you can show me from gods word THE BIBLE where is says that we as christains today should follow the commandment of tithing. And if you say its in the book of mormon cant you back it up in the bible because having the book of mormon is another issue revelation 22 vs 17 quotes ‘i am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll if anyone makes an addition to these things God will add him the plagues that are writen in this scroll’. Im not having a dig at your beliefs but im still trying to understand them. have a good day

  • Britishlad

    sorry its revelation 22 vs 18 :P

  • MJ

    Very familiar with that scripture ;)

    Which can be answered by understanding the chronology of when the writings of John occurred.

    The testimony of John and his letters were all written after the book of revelations. Would john be writing in spite of his own warning?

    No, because that prophetic warning was directly given in reference to specifically the book of revelations. The canonization of the literature found in the bible and its order was not created until after 300 ad. John’s last known whereabouts dated him to somewhere around 100 ad. These facts are known to bible scholars of any faith, even secular scholars that have only interests in historical facts.

    I believe the bible to be the word of God so long as it is translated correctly. Just because someone makes there own “translation” of it and slaps “bible” on the cover doesn’t mean I should automatically have blind faith in it. As any principle of the gospel can be proven, so we too can prove the bible, to see if it matches up to what the spirit reveals. As Peter says in 2 Peter 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”

    However, many have tried to privately interrupt Revelation 22:18 to mean that there can never ever be any more revealed literature from God to man. However we read in the bible that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If he has spoken to man from the time of Adam to the time of Christ, when Peter James and John bore witness to the transfiguration of Christ and heard the voice of the Father say, “This is my beloved son, hear ye him” (see Mark 9:2-9) if he continued then, why would he not reveal himself to his servants, the prophets? (see Eph. 3:5 and Amos 3:7)

    Understanding this principle is it too hard to believe that the reformation of Christianity during the late 1700’s and early 1800’s lead to a foundation to allow the Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, when all things will be revealed once again in preparation to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It was spoken by Peter as a time of a restitution of all things (Acts 3:21).

    The bible is very clear that the Lord’s words will never cease and that many will revile against truth when it is presented to them.

    The Book of Mormon also offers this principle to test it, whether it be from God or not. (Alma 32:28) “Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.”

    One prophet in the Book of Mormon named Nephi(nee-f-eye) said this, “I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell… I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.” (2 Nephi 33:6,9,10)

    Maybe “dig” has a negative feel to it, but I welcome you to dig all you like. It reminds me of treasure hunting where you need to dig for buried treasure. Though many communities try to look down on the Mormon faith, many have not taken the time themselves to understand it. While there are very evil men out there who have found that they can make a living printing anti-mormon literature and this has turned many off to the idea of asking an informed mormon what he/ she believes.

    One of my favorite iterations of the Lord in modern day scripture as revealed in the Doctrine and Covenants said this, “Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth bideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.
    And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
    Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.” (D&C 88:63 – 68)

  • MJ

    Britishlad,

    Oh but in answer to your tithing question. I believe the law of tithe was reintroduced to the church in the last days for the Lord’s work. I don’t think all christian churches should tithe. What would be the point to it? The LDS church makes their tithing use known and have auditors to be sure it is being used correctly. We regard that money as sacred and belonging to the Lord for his work. So this money is used in the church’s missionary programs, church building maintenance, publications etc. getting people to tithe doesn’t mean the prophet can get a Ferrari.

    Its an efficient system for maintaining the church, and other non-mormon, congregations have modeled their collections after our law of the tithe because it works. there is a principle of truth that can be followed, but it is a commandment to the Church to pay a full honest tithe. If you are not a member of the mormon church, I wouldn’t worry about tithing.

  • Britishlad

    But you could say tithing is a tradition just because it was used before us doesnt mean we have to use it to, we are urged in the bible to be a cheerful giver,give till it hurts, so doesnt tithing limit us on giving. Its true we do need to support ones church or organisation with all its efforts. Do mormons believe in the whole bible? or is your book of mormon more important to you? just to let you know ive never belonged to your church so im not an apostate i just have a good knowledge on the bible and dont understand some of your teachings. Thanks again for your help in explaining your beliefs but i find it strange you dont quote from the bible. And still cant understand the how you can add on a book to the bible surely thats changing the word of God.

  • MJ

    Britishlad,

    Amos, 2 Peter, Malachi, Romans, and 2 Thessalonians are books from the bible. So I have quoted the Holy Bible, if you have read my posts…

    I didn’t say it was tradition. I said it was commandment given to Church.

    I don’t think you have to use it at all. Other churches can fund themselves with bingo for all I care.

    Tithing prepares one to give up other things, not just temporal currency, so no it doesn’t interfere with giving as the church is also one of the biggest humanitarian societies in the world. Rivaling that of even the Red Cross. LDS presence during disasters like Hurricane Katrina aftermath has always been significant. Its a mindset, that we are willing to give of our time, talents, and interests in order to do God’s work, whether that is proclaiming the gospel, feedings the hungry, clothing the poor, strengthening the feeble minded. As Paul would agree.

    Mormons believe that the bible is the word of God so long as it is translated correctly. As I have written at length about previously above.

    What has changed? Is the message not the same? It is the same, however, having more of GOD’S WORDS allows us to better understand what we already know. The more you seek, the more you find. We ask for more of his words and he give to us liberally. (see James 1:5, Matthew 21:22, Amos 3:7, James 4:8, Hebrew 13:8)

    if anything, many have tried to change God by saying that his words have stopped. That he can speak no more. That we are limited by only that which is written.

    That’s at the heart of the Mormon belief, is that God’s words never end, that he lives today! That he is the same yesterday, today, and forever and that he will not leave us in darkness if we would repent, and call on his name. Then we will give to us those promptings necessary to spring us to action, to do good, follow his example, so that we can be like him and live according to his word. Its his grace, because he does not have to strengthen us or teach us, but he does and through him we can overcome sin. Which means we have to stop sinning, when we do we are forgiven, for he has changed our hearts. (see John 8:11)

    read through the bible scriptures I have given, read through my words, read through the book of mormon and see for yourself if it doesn’t teach of the mercy of Jesus Christ and his role are the Creator, Savior, and Redeemer of all mankind. Then Pray and ask God, in the name of Christ, if you are truly desirous to know, and will follow those promptings with real intent, then the truth will be made manifested to you by the power of the Holy Ghost.

  • Britishlad

    One thing ive realised that in the book of mormon Ether4:12 it states Jesus Christ saying “i am father”. When the bible says that God is father and Jesus is his son. So the book of mormon doesnt go in harmony with the bible? Throughout his ministry Jesus Christ proclaimed himself, not as God, but as the Son of God. He said nothing about being part of a triune God and neither did the Bible writers. Instead of claiming to be equal with his Father, he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28)

  • Britishlad

    I forgot to mention, i agree alot with the scriptures above about seeking and puting God first in our lives, and we get guided today by holyspirit which help us to understand the scriptures. And back to the point about tithing its true we should have the same attitude of giving because it is important to give to help preaching and disaters etc, but is it true you still have to give 10% of your wages in the mormon church? if thats true your still doing the same as the isralites when theres no need, why cant you descretly put 10% of wages into a box for collection if you feel you should use the principle.

  • MJ

    britishlad,

    now you are just getting, silly. I’ve explained the tithe in detail. How it is not because of the law of moses that we practice it, so refer to my previous answers on that one.

    As far as Christ declaring that he is the father, in that instance. Is not referring to himself as Our Heavenly Father, but as his own role as a Father to us all.

    As the bible is very clear that through Christ we can be spiritually reborn. In this sense he is a Father to us. Also, the fact that our heavenly Father created the heavens and the earth through Jesus Christ, making Jesus Christ the Father of the heavens and the earth since it was he that made them.

    So he is the Son of God, as well as a Father to us.

    Interesting that you would make this argument, considering that most believe that the Father and the Son are the same being. Its usually a unique teaching of the Mormon Chruch to view God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as three distinct beings, all one in purpose.

    Tell me britishlad, of what faith do you represent? So I can answer your questions more fully.

  • MJ

    “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (PHILIPPIANS 2:6 Paul said, in speaking about the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.)

  • MJ

    Another one to think about…
    “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne” Revelation 3:21

    And this one…
    “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” Romans 8:16-17
    If you understand these scriptures then some of the Mormon beliefs don’t seem so bizarre since they are taught in the Bible.

  • unknown

    i have no clue how i got reading about this but am glad i did.. ask yourself this how does someone at the age of 14 translate plates into the book of mormon.. either he is a good story teller or he is truly getting help from god

  • Britishlad

    its because satan misleads the nations thats why someone at 14 can do that

  • Ashlee

    awww come on Britishlad. I hope you don’t really mean that.
    If you were to truly study and pray about the Book of Mormon with and open mind and heart and not a skeptical sinical eye you would know for yourself that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. He translated the gold plates by the power of God and was the instrument used to restore the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ back on the earth today. He is not what you and so many others falsely believe. No matter what anyone tries to say to disprove the church of Jesus Christ, you can’t. It is the church of Jesus Christ. Trying to convince me that this church is false is like trying to convince me the world is flat. Some things are just true no matter what anyone else says. I’ve had a witness from God that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ back on the earth today. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet of God who knelt in a grove of trees and prayed with real intent to know which church to join and then was visited by God and His Son Jesus Christ and the beautiful restoration began.
    You cannot and will not disprove that. While you may not believe the things I say, that is ok. You may have a million things you want to re-buttle and try to convince me otherwise I would say please don’t waste your time. I am converted in my heart that this is the true and living church of God along with millions of others in this world. I love this Gospel. It has brought me joy and happiness that I never knew existed.
    I will never try to force my beliefs on others but I will stand for what I know to be true.
    Hope you have an enjoyable Sunday.

  • MJ

    First of all.

    Joseph Smith received a Vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ first at the age of 14 (1823). He recounts as follows:

    “I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”

    He did not begin the work of translation until he was 18, when in 1827 he received the plates.

    Ashlee,
    Commendable testimony, however seek to make your testimony based on something other than stubborness. And if it is not based on stubborness, try not to use wording that makes it sound like it.

    Britishlad,
    You took time to respond to someone else’s comment… but sadly didn’t answer my question concerning what faith you were.
    In response to your statement I have to say, that you are ill informed of the workings of Satan here in the last days, even though they are very clear even in the bible.
    Do you not know that Satan does not convince a man to pray? He teaches them that they must not pray to the Father. While we mormons, some mature in the faith and some still growing, have told you that you must pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ in order to receive a spiritual answer for yourself.
    You deny the workings of the Spirit and rest yourself on pride. Tell me, what spirit is that? Is that the spirit of God, or the Devil that has hold of your heart that tells you to not pray and fight against that which you do not understand?

    Consider these words from Nephi in the Book of Mormon:
    “And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
    And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.” 2 Nephi 33:10 – 11

    Though I can see how you could be confused. If in your church, you are taught hateful things about Mormons by someone who has a financial stake in their congregation. By someone that has told you to rely on the philsophies of men mingled with scriptures, instead of using the whole of the scriptures.
    Challenge my words BritishLad, have the prophets of the Bible Erred that I have quoted? Where are your answers to my teaching? Can you deny them with a clear conscience before God? Or will you continue to kick against the pricks? If you cannot see error in my words, or in otherwords, are unable to point true error out using the scriptures, then how do you justify your continued attack when you have not so much as mentioned what faith you belong to?
    Or are you afraid that I may know more about the history of your church than you know about mine? That I may know the circumstances your faith began? That I may in my possession now have the quotes of your religious founders that made no claim at the authority of God, but recognize that it must exsist? All of the reformers have quotes that speak of a need of a restoration of the Gospel in its Fullness, including some of our Founding Fathers.
    Have you sought knowledge before God, or have you continued to dwell willfully in darkness? The spirit is clear, ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you. Have you asked? Have you knocked? Or have you told yourself that you have enough and need no more? It is an unwise servant having a talent to bury it in the ground, when the season is come and the master returns, he will take even that which you have, but to him that receives with gladness and seeks to multiply his talents will the master grant an inhertiance in his kingdom.
    Judge all you want, but with that same judgment you too shall be judged, that by the same reasoning and the same philosophy how you judge others you too will be judged. Wouldn’t that be fair? And can you imagine yourself in that great day of judgment to lie to God and say that your works have been works of righteousness upon the earth?
    No you cannot. Have you not read? You will be judged according to your works whether you are good or whether you are evil. Its good that you believe in Christ, but the devils know too, and they tremble. Belief in Christ does not win you automatic salvation. Anyone that teaches this false doctine is a child of the devil, and anyone that believes it have not read the scriptures, or have not understood them. Do you think that you can enter the Kingdom of God without keeping the commandments of the Son? Do you suppose to keep only some of his words? Or will you believe those that wrestle the scriptures and believe them that say that a little sin will be justified?
    I say to you that not one ounce of sin will be justified. Only through Christ can you be cleansed of your sins. Meaning! That through his Grace you may be strengthened that you SIN NO MORE. The scriptures are clear that this is the condition of entering his kingdom. Jesus Christ is the way, the turth, and the life. You must learn to walk in his footsteps or you cannot be saved. But you choose to live a life of sin you show that you love the world more than he. You cannot serve God and Mammon.

    So how many bible quotes do you think are in that statement? A lot. How about you read the scriptures and find them, because you are not even trying to seek for youself and gain understanding.

  • Ashlee

    You know after reading that I can definitely see how it could come off as stubborness and for that I am sorry. I did not mean it to come off that way at all. Maybe I should have left out my line that said “You may have a million things you want to re-buttle and try to convince me otherwise I would say please don’t waste your time.”
    I guess sometimes I get weary of others bashing eachothers beliefs. Not just in the mormon church but in other churches as well. It’s like nails on a chalk board when I hear someone say something disrespectful about another person’s beliefs whether it be Catholicism, Buddhism, etc. etc…
    So I guess by saying that I felt like I needed to put my guard but I didn’t because I’ve been impressed with the level of respect that has taken place on this message board.
    So again, my apologies! If you want to re-buttle go ahead, it helps me to want to study more and learn more. Besides, I like hearing others views:)
    Happy Sunday everyone!!

  • MJ

    the more you study the more the spirit can confirm. Its one thing to have facts in your head, and another to have them apart of who you are. In that spirit seek the words of eternal life. Then teach diligently to answer men according to their understanding. As you seek this, the Lord will bless you.

    Try D&C 88:63-68, 78-79

  • Doug

    What about the whole “Burnt Angels” fallen to earth from heaven?

  • XxXImagineXxX

    People, I’m sorry if it offends you, but I’m Mormon, and I think you’re all crazy for thinking we’re insane. Yes, there are soem pretty odd things, but the ones listed here are NOT those things! And there was a comment about polygamy. I’m sorry, but everyone does this! LDS, not FLDS. Some men in pioneer days were told to have multiple wives, but by God. It was abandoned when God didn’t want it. And those men loved every one of their wives nad children, were faithful to all, and supproted them all. They didn’t get married to get laid. Idiots! And the coffee/tea/drugs/alcohol thing:

    WE ARE EFFING TOLD IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL THAT ACOHOL AND DRUG RUIN OUR LIVES. NO EFFING DUH.

    Coffe and tea: People, I don’t care what teh off-their-rocker scientists say, but tea and coffee aren’t good for you! The hot drinks are harmful, and even herbal tea is not good, TEA IS TEA.

    And for those who would think we HAVE to do these things: We have a wonderful thing that some religions don’t have, and it’s free agency! We have choices; to do the right, or the wrong. CTR: Choose The Right. But we can choose. Yes, it is true that we cannot be forgiven for denying the Holy Spirit and murder, but otehrwise it is our life to live!

  • MJ

    Imagine,
    You’re comments are inappropriate and rude, they do not teach with any sort of charity or the light of Christ.

    Doug,
    Burnt Angels? Doesn’t sound like any LDS doctrine I know. And trust me I know a lot ;) please explain and I will help resolve your concern.

  • MJ

    Imagine,

    Not only are your comments rude, but also contain several false doctrines. Check yourself and learn the scriptures before you open your mouth to others.

  • Ashlee

    Imagine,
    I am also Mormon and I can see what you are trying to say. Defending something you believe in is not onlyy necessary but very admirable. But, one thing that is crucial if you are wanting to get your point across and create peace with all those around you is to do so with a calm and Christ like manner like MJ mentioned. I’m guessing you watched General Conference this October?? I would suggest you re-read Elder Robert D Hales talk…here is the link http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-947-22,00.html
    Hope this helps!

  • Jimbo

    It’s sad how narrow minded so many of these posts are. Why would someone get online and under the coat of the “net” start claiming knowledge about something they know nothing about and degrading anothers personal and deeply held religious beliefs. I am a born and raised mormon and wonder where many of you have gotten your information and who you have known. As a Mormon I admit I have have peculiar beliefs, but they are mine and I’m not trying to force them on anyone. I don’t believe these things because I have been brain washed. They are things I believe in for myself. I did go on a mission and if someone was interested we taught them about our beliefs, if not we wished them well and moved along. I personally don’t know any other member of my church who pushes their beliefs on everyone they meet. I’m basically just trying to be a good person to everyone I meet and I believe my religion is helping me do so. I also believe that God will ultimately judge people for living what they believe, so I will continue to live my religion and wish you all well in living however you believe.

  • coleman

    I am not even close to being wierd and i am a mormon. How will any other religion liked it if we started doing to what you are doing to us? At least we don’t make fun of other religions.

  • huckleberry

    Anyone ever see Tombstone (1993 version) Sidetrack for another wierd belief for your list — call it a week moment because Mormons aren’t supposed to watch Rated R movies because of the lack of positive spiritual influence the majority of them contain, but my favorite quote is “I’m your huckleberry…why that’s just my game.”

    I just found this site and there are too many weird posts to go through to comment on…but I love this game. For every 10 things you tell me are wierd about my beliefs I could find 20 about yours. Should we start with the South Park Worshippers? Because they must be spiritually in tune for sure. How about the person who said he got dumber by reading the Book of Mormon. I’d love to hear the list of books you read to make you smarter. “Star Wars” maybe…thats next generation stuff so I would understand. You don’t by chance dress up as Darth Vader and go to those conventions do you?

    How about the comment of not liking organized religion and prefering to worship your own way. Hey I’m all for this. I could pay myself a 10% tithing. God would forgive me no matter what I did. I could spend my time watching old reruns of “I Love Lucy” rather than going to church on Sunday and sleeping during sunday school anyway, etc.

    Okay, really…I love you all…wish you the best in life, but in the end I only want to obtain the blessings of heaven as taught by the Mormons…every other possible explanation for afterlife opportunities sounds boring…(Singing and bowing to a deity we call Father, but looks nothing like us, all day long every day – of course the virgins that the Muslims believe they’ll get sounds intriguing, but maybe that’s our old polygamous beliefs coming out in me…but I’m not really into blowing myself up for that one so I’ll settle for the Mormon belief of being able to inherit all the Father has and helping him in his work…namely creationism and bringing salvation to others, and if it is wrong as many of you believe then I haven’t lost anything. I still live all the “normal/non-wierd” Christian commandments..so I’ll be stuck their right along with you bowing and singing…though I’ll warn you ahead of time that I am a horrible singer.

    GLTA

  • huckleberry

    Sorry, quick clarification…I said Muslim, but I did not mean to identify the virgins belief as being Muslim in general, but as a belief often held by fanatic Muslims who wage Jihad (Holy War) on Infidels (All Non-Muslims) usually in the form of terrorist acts. I am an Arabic linguist and have many Muslim acquaintances and am familiar with the better part of their teachings as are practiced on a daily basis.

  • Mystern

    Jimbo: It’s admirable the faith you have in your religion. I’m happy to see that you have your beliefs for your own reasons rather than someone who believes on others’ words, or worse yet, is forced to believe. Having been born into an LDS household and growing up LDS I cannot say I hold the same faith for myself, but then again, it’s my choice.

    Huckleberry: Thanks for your input. You’re obviously one with a strong faith, and you raise a good point. Even though Mormons do practice some weird things, they also follow all the standard Christian beliefs. I suppose I won’t be one of the ones singing with you, but then again, I wouldn’t want to get too close to your voice from the sound of it, so perhaps that’s a good thing ;)

  • MJ

    I think a lot has changed, well at least in california, in how other christian churches view the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, or mormons.

    We teamed up with other churches to head what we believed was the right thing to do in supporting the passing of prop 8. The principles behind tithing of giving of our substance willingly was recognized as it was the members that contributed a lot of the campaign money. The church itself did not use its funds like many opponents of prop 8 claim.

    We stood with the Catholics, the protestants, and the fraternal orders associated with those different faiths on this issue. We stood together as Christians.

    What we do may seem strange to many, but it is by small and simple things do great things come to pass.

    Even as recently both mormons and the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic fraternal order) both came under direct terrorist threat when white powder was sent to Salt Lake and Los Angeles temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the New York HQ for the Knights of Columbus.

    needless to say, that if ever the nation turns from God completely, the Mormons will stay true and will defend all those that believe in the Holy One of Israel, Jesus Christ.

  • petpeeve

    When I was Mormon, I didn’t think my beliefs were weird either. It wasn’t until after I left that church and gained some perspective, that many of its teachings seemed, for lack of a more polite term, ridiculous. To wit:

    I’ve raised 4 teenage boys. God would have to be insane to trust the restoration of His/Her gospel to a 14-year-old.
    The whole “mark of Cain” reasoning is simply insulting, even to a whitey like me.
    I don’t think it can be emphasized enough, like Mystern brought up, that LDS doctrine includes the practice of polygamy by the elites in heaven.
    I find it hard to fathom a God who would give Mormon boys, via the “priesthood”, more power to call upon His/Her name than would be granted to me, a woman. I have a direct line to God. No priesthood holder necessary to call upon the power of heaven nor escort me through the veil.
    Even you Mormons would have to admit that lining up to do baptisms and sealings for the dead is strange, to say nothing of fig leaves, aprons, secret names and handshakes.
    My son, who lost his hearing at 20 months old, did not choose to be deaf in the pre existance, like so many Mormons believe. If it is so, he wants a do-over.

    Not an all inclusive list, but you get my point. Whatever happened to not being offended at being thought of as weird, because, after all, you have the “fullness” that we “others” don’t.

  • petpeeve

    MJ said, “We stood with the Catholics, the protestants, and the fraternal orders associated with those different faiths on this issue. We stood together as Christians.”

    Yes, you stood together for hate. You want to deny people the same right that you have to marry. Mustn’t question what the prophet directs. Congrats.

    But this will be a short victory, as the times are changing. I know, I know. God’s laws are eternal. But meanwhile, earthly laws will, I believe, protect marriage as a civil right, no matter what gender your spouse is.

    Your church is on the wrong side of history again, but keep giving your dollars to the cause because otherwise you might have to help the hungry, infirm, or homeless.

  • huckleberry

    Yeah, can’t imagine much good coming from a 14 year old…although there was that time where someone who was 12 was able to intelligently sit in the midst of Doctors and astound the people who witnessed his understanding. I guess he was just a special case though.

    I love talking to ex-Mormons the most, they always become smarter when they leave the church. Glad to see that you are at least politically correct and not trying to offend anyone with your gender neutral reference to God. John said life eternal is knowing the only true God…I think that when I pray I would get more brownie points if I called him Father or her Mother depending on the right gender, or maybe even It if it is more appropriate. Can you use your direct line and contact him/her/it up again just to ask him/her/it if he/she/it has a gender. Hey, while your talking to him/her/it, could you ask for me what he/she/it thinks of trying to vote to add fornication and adultery, in addition to gay marriage, as a legal amendment to the constitution, and might as well throw the polygamy question in just for giggles too–afterall, were all consenting adults. I would feel much better about giving in to those urges that I feel I was born with, being promiscuous that is, and it would help a great deal to at least have the law of the land recognize its validity even if God doesn’t. Just don’t tell my wife I suggested it! :)

    All joking aside…hope you are able to find a solution to your sons hearing..there have been tremendous medical advances over the past 150 years. Not sure I followed your thinking the Mormons believe we choose our afflictions in the premortal life though, but oh well I skipped sunday school a lot when I was younger. You could maybe check with the Buddhists for the do over part. Good luck to you in your future endeavors all the same.

    By the way…all my comments are my own — if you want to learn about Mormons go to mormons.org or lds.org, or talk to an official representative of the church.

  • MJ

    petpeeve,

    Its funny you said we stood for hate when both the knights of Columbus and two Mormon temples were sent white powder is a anthrax hoax scare. Its interesting that you claim prop 8 was hateful, when those that are opposed to it are showing the most hate and intolerance.

    So far opponents of prop 8 resemble terrorist than anything else.

    You just sound angry at the church and you don’t seem to have that much gospel knowledge. Have you read the old and new testament.

    Samuel the prophet in the old testament was called to be a prophet when still a child.(1 kings 3) Or Jeremiah? He was ordained a prophet before he was born. (Jeremiah 1:5) hmmm Also Jesus Christ was 12 years old when he was among the elders in the temple teaching them.

    So maybe you should have brought your children up like those prophets mothers did, maybe then you could expect to trust your sons with greater responsibility.

  • MJ

    “help the hungry, infirm, or homeless.”
    You must not have read my other posts lol.
    what are you doing for the world today?

  • petpeeve

    MJ at #253 said, “So maybe you should have brought your children up like those prophets mothers did, maybe then you could expect to trust your sons with greater responsibility.”

    Wow. So you’re saying I should feel bad about my parenting skills because none of my sons were preordained to be prophets? And thank goodness for that. I really like who they all turned out to be. They are good young men with good heads on their shoulders, who treat others with respect. They live by the golden rule. If we’re measuring successful parenting by how many prophets we’ve raised, how many prophets can be found among your children? Grandchildren?

    No MJ, I’m not angry at the LDS church. It served a purpose in my life at one time. I don’t regret my past membership, but I have moved on, I’ve never regretted leaving, and I am happy.

    And I’ll just concede right now that you probably have far more gospel knowledge than I ever had. It seems from your comments on this post, that you want us all to know how learned you are. Why, you even chastised Ashlee for her testimony when you said “Ashlee, Commendable testimony, however seek to make your testimony based on something other than stubborness. And if it is not based on stubborness, try not to use wording that makes it sound like it.” Your testimony may be more informed, but it sounds like stubbornness all the same.

    Yes, I’ve read your other posts which is where I found this little gem in #241 “You’re comments are inappropriate and rude, they do not teach with any sort of charity or the light of Christ.” Sounds like someone should heed his own counsel.

  • MJ

    It seems you were horribly offended by the quibble about the possibility of being a bad mother.

    “I’ve raised 4 teenage boys. God would have to be insane to trust the restoration of His/Her gospel to a 14-year-old.”

    You were the one that called God insane for ever trusting anyone like your sons.

    I refer you back to my post
    “Samuel the prophet in the old testament was called to be a prophet when still a child.(1 kings 3) Or Jeremiah? He was ordained a prophet before he was born. (Jeremiah 1:5) hmmm Also Jesus Christ was 12 years old when he was among the elders in the temple teaching them.”

    I don’t like ignorance. Which this original posting represents. Because I share knowledge and I chastise those that do bring themselves to be well informed you accuse me of using this as a way of somehow glorifying myself? That’s an accusation you pull out of thin air.

    www providentliving org
    “help the hungry, infirm, or homeless.”
    what are you doing for the world today?

  • MJ

    that do not bring themselves to be well informed*

  • petpeeve

    I get it now. You don’t have children. It would explain a lot.

    MJ, anyone reading this thread can get that you are well informed, never ignorant, almost perfect, one of God’s chosen few. But sometimes that know-it -all, I’m out to prove you wrong attitude doesn’t help your cause. I would argue that, in fact, a sweet testimony like Ashlee’s, is the honey that can attract the bees. One thing many outsiders dislike about mormons is their “only we can be right and the rest of you had better get informed and jump on board” attitude. Sometimes it comes across as arrogant, elitist, holier-than-thou. Do you see yourself yet? I thought not.

  • petpeeve

    MJ,
    It might also be helpful for you to know that using scriptures on someone like me, who does not hold them in esteem the way you do, just does not work. I think the scriptures tell some good stories with some good lessons we can use in life, but they aren’t important enough to start wars over, or keep someone out of heaven.

  • petpeeve

    I would also like to commend Mystern on his considerable use of self restraint in writing this list and in his posts here.

  • MJ

    Petpeeve,

    If you don’t believe the scriptures then why are you Christian?

    Most of the problems that face society today comes from those that refuse to become informed. Thinking that it is too hard or beyond them. Its that thinking that keeps them from knowledge. Its sad to see how many people today allow certain things to go on as if they are normal, when historically, practically, and truthfully some of the modern traditions do not sync up with what is right and true.

    I will never use flattering words to attract anyone, the sweet also attracts the flies as well.

    I’m not a parent, but I have parents and i know many parents and the difference can be seen between what works and what doesn’t. Many children given responsibility, real responsibility will rise to the occasion. You would never know that if you don’t trust them. We are the Lord’s children and he knows us best. 14 year old boy would be better than a stubborn old man who thinks he has learned everything.

    You are only arguing out of stubbornness, you don’t support the majority of Christianity in prop 8, you don’t believe the scriptures have literal content, you make claims such as saying that the church does not help the sick, naked, or hungry when in fact it does.

    So whatever excuse you would like to give for the way you lead your life is all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day I really wonder how you justify it to yourself.

  • petpeeve

    MJ,
    I never said I was Christian. I said I used to be Mormon, and now I’m not, haven’t been for many years. Technically, I’m still a member of record, although, in light of the Mormon church’s choreographed and funded (individual donors, of course) involvement in Prop 8, I think now might be the right time for me to have my name removed from the membership roles. No, I’m not gay. I just think its wrong to marginalize a whole class of people by denying them the same basic civil right to marry that you and I have.

    You really helped to make my point that many Mormons have a holier-than-thou attitude when you questioned how I can justify the way I live my life at the end of the day, especially when you know so little about me.

    Regarding Ashlee’s “sweet testimony”, I meant to say sincere, authentic testimony, but somehow I think you knew that.

  • MJ

    I’m more than sure you are not familiar with the legal issues that were involved in prop 8. As you know the church very rarely gets involved politically and this is the first I have ever heard the church outright support a specific measure and for good reason.

    If you knew California law, same sex civil unions ALREADY have the exact same legal rights as traditional marriage. In fact, when prop 8 passed no civil union was affected, just an argument over a word. I word we hold sacred, but a word that holds many legal consequences that if defined any other way than between a man and a woman it would have created many legal loop holes that would have created a number of lawsuits, just like it did in Massachusetts. Again, if you were informed on the issue instead of listening to propaganda you would have known that.

    Just because I wonder by what logic you justify your life, doesn’t make me holier than thou. You through that slogan around as if you were using it correctly. Again if you were well informed you wouldn’t have used it incorrectly. So thank you for proving my point more than once.

    No, I am not psychic, you cannot expect me to magically know what you mean. But I would question how you would guage Ashlee’s sincerity or authenticity. Through the internet she could be an 57 year old man named bill, who gets a kick out of participating in random discussions. In all truthfulness and fairness, you have no idea if what she stated is real. So it brings again to mind your reasoning for the way you deduce information around you. Do you connect her inarticulate response directly to sincerity and authenticity? if so, that could explain your own hostile stance against the very informed responses I have presented to you.

    So the next question is this:

    Will you continue to kick against the pricks? to persecute the saints? and fight against God?

    If you are not Christian why has your faith entirely disappeared? Is it a fear of seeking truth causing you to be informed and thus accountable? But if so, knowing that there is more knowledge to gain would in fact make you accountable in at least trying to obtain it.

    I know a number of people who have left the church, I’m still friends with many of them, but not one of them has ever denied the divinity of Jesus Christ.

    If you do not believe in Christ, it is probably a good thing you get your named removed. Because only those that make a promise to follow Christ and put their trust in him can endure to the end.

    So, what part of your life was so more important that you would give up on the Holy One of Israel, because he will never give up on you.

  • Mystern

    MJ: I’ve been showing restraint in jumping into the theological debate you and petpeeve are having, but I have to say that it does not help your cause in the slightest to personally attack petpeeve. Calling her a coward is not the way to get your point across. What’s more, calling only informed testimonies valid is just plain ignorant. If that were the case, you would be calling not only every new converts’ testimony invalid, but also calling the testimony of the majority people who might not have the same grasp on the gospel (or the same vocabulary as you) to be invalid. (gods that was a convoluted sentence)

    You say that of all the former Mormons you know, not one has ever denied the divinity of good ol’ JC. I would ask if you’ve ever personally asked each of them if they still believe such. It’s generally a sore subject for ex Mormons so I’d be careful. And if indeed all of them still believe that Mr. Jesus was the son of The Alpha and Omega, I would say you have a small and rare sampling of ex Mormon friends.

    I’d like to point out that you are entirely correct in saying that each person who knows there is more knowledge to be had is accountable for obtaining that knowledge. I’d also like to point out (as you already know) that you are accountable for the knowledge you have.

    So essentially, I’m gonna be fine because I don’t know that Buddy Christ was the son of the Holiest of Holy. And petpeeve is gonna be fine as well, cause she doesn’t know that Big J walked on water. And you’ve got the short end of the stick, cause you apparently do know these things, so you’re going to be held accountable.

    Unless you’re confusing beliefs with knowledge?

    Listen. It’s great that you have a strong testimony. I’m happy for you. It’s great that you’re so willing to defend your beliefs. But having grown up in the church I know about a little something called “The Spirit.” And it’s something your posts do not inspire. And I think if you go back and look at how you were feeling when you wrote those posts you’ll see that they did not come from a place of love. The LDS gospel teaches that we (meaning you) should uphold our (your) faith through reason, and spirit. Your posts do not teach, they do not foster understanding. Instead of attacking those who attack you, why don’t you try explaining why you believe as you do. And if you feel you don’t have to, then I think you had better take a look at why that is. If you can’t answer why you have your faith, then I’d suggest looking at that as well. Because faith without reason is just . . . empty.

  • Mystern

    petpeeve: Sorry I just realized that I assumed you were a woman. If you’re a man I apologize.

  • MJ

    Never did I call her a coward.

    This conversion is soon coming to a close since you both don’t seem to have a faith in Jesus Christ, then my target audience, Christians, will understand the difference between you and me. I have little to no remorse for what I’ve said to either of you, I have raised many valid points, but you both seem to cling only to the weakest of them while brushing over the rest. I have taught, if you have read them, it means you do not understand, and you don’t understand because you are not trying to.

    Yes I do talk to my ex-mormon friends very openly about religion. It may be a sensitive subject to you, but I would not say it is rare. Most that do leave the church JOIN other churches, not become agnostic.

    You also use very disrespectful words referring to someone, even if you do not have a complete knowledge, who could be the Son of God. I would point out that its your lackadaisical approach to Him that keeps you from obtaining any level of knowledge.

    Because I would also point out that you can have knowledge about a subject without having a complete knowledge. Just like I can know basic arithmetic, but not know Calculus. If If I were an engineer, it would be my duty to learn that higher knowledge. Like wise, if you care for spiritual things and you call yourself a seeker of truth, it would behoove you to seek the truth about the divinity of Jesus Christ.

    He laid down his life for you so that he can save you both body and spirit. As everyone will temporally die, through the power (or knowledge) that Christ has he made it possible that ALL will rise from the dead in a perfect immortal body, never to physically die again. That promise is giving to everyone unconditionally. The only death that we must concern ourselves with is spiritual death, which is a separation from God. Romans 8:16 records that we are the children of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we suffer (in other words follow his example) with him, so we too can have the blessing of living in the presence of a Just, Kind, and infinitely loving Father in Heaven.

    You speak so disrespectfully of him, but these are his words, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man layeth down his life for his friends.” You considered you his friends, search his teachings and the prophets and pray and ask God, even if you don’t believe that address Heavenly Father if he is even there. If you are sincere and you ask in faith he will answer you.

    Also keeping in mind of HOW THE SPIRIT WORKS. That it is also the responsibility of the recipient of spiritual things to be seeking truth in the spirit of truth. If you have no desire to seek the truth, the spirit will not inspire you to do so. You cannot have the spirit as your companion if you do not act on the information it has previously given you. You say you grew up in the church, so I would ask, why are you not in it now? There will lie the answer to why you do not feel inspired by my words I have spoken.

  • Mystern

    MP: Let me first apologize for my confusion in what you said to petpeeve. I assumed from my knowledge of the word “fear” (please note your statement: “Is it a fear of seeking truth causing you to be informed and thus accountable”), that you meant cowardly. Please accept my apologies for this assumption of the commonly used definition of the word coward.

    In response to me attacking the weakest points of your arguments, I would just like to point out 2 things. First and foremost, as the affirmative in this debate, you have the burden of proof. I don’t need to address any of your points except the ones I choose to. If a single of your points is invalid, your entire argument crumbles. Secondly, you find yourself guilty of the same. You yourself fail to address the point of my entire comment, instead focusing on my lack of respect for (in your words) “who could be the Son of God.”

    You did not answer my question as to why you believe the way you do. My dismissive nature toward Jesus was for the sole purpose of garnering your attention. Apparently I did too good of a job, because that’s all you seem to have focused on. You attack me for my nature and disregard for things you respect without bothering to defend you reasons. I have my reasons for my lack of faith, and I’ll get to those shortly.

    In regards to your generally dismissive nature toward non-Christians (saying, “my target audience, Christians”), I would simply like to say that you’re not helping your case. You’re still just telling us we’re wrong, instead of helping us understand why. I never said you needed to have a complete knowledge. After all, one of the most quoted scriptures from the book of Alma: “faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.” I’m acting under the assumption that you believe this, and never expected you to have a perfect knowledge. I simply was referring to the fact that you said that everyone will be held accountable for their knowledge. I don’t know, and I simply wanted to know how you do.

    In regard to how the spirit works, I just want to tell you I’m coming from a place of an open mind. I’m more than willing to learn, but your posts leave me disheartened instead of uplifted. I’ve never once attacked your faith, instead only saying that I respect you for your faith. I’ve never once said that your beliefs are invalid, only said that I did not agree. If I have either attacked your faith, or stated that your beliefs are invalid, or even given that impression, please accept my deepest apologies. Such was never my intention. I do however, have to say how disappointed I am that you seem bent on attacking my (among others’) lack of faith. I’m very disappointed that you automatically assume I’m unwilling to learn.

    As far as my personal reasons for my lack of belief, I’m going to share my story. I was born and raised in the church, and I believed. I’d even go so far as to say that I knew the truth of His word. But a few years ago, as my knowledge in the gospel grew, I became disheartened to learn that our Infinitely Forgiving God Almighty, is in fact the most unforgiving being in the universe. As I say this, I’d like you to look at number 2 on this list. God will forgive any sin you have while here on this Earth (save two). However, a basic tenant of LDS faith is that each and every person will end up in the Kingdom of Glory where they will be most comfortable. Thus right now, I’d end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. My issue arises from the fact that LDS theology states that our basic nature as humans does not change after we die (or are resurrected), and one of the basic of human natures is that how e feel changes. Thus, after the final judgment, no matter how much time has passed, no matter how much remorse you feel for your sins, no matter how much you want to repent, once you’re in a lower kingdom, you’re stuck there, for eternity. I could also say this of other Christian religions regarding Hell and the final judgment. It’s not that I’m not open to the idea of a God, it’s that I refuse to believe that the Creator of the universe would be so unforgiving.

    So that leaves me in limbo right now. I don’t believe in any religious ideal of God, but I’m not closed to the idea of it. I’m simply in a place where I don’t know.

  • Mystern

    Sorry for the Italics, I must’ve forgotten to close a tag in there somewhere.

  • MJ

    I addressed every point you made, and why I believe what I do. You further prove my point that you are only choosing to understand what you want to.

    everyone is afraid of something, so no I wouldn’t go around calling everyone cowards. So Apology accepted as I didn’t call her coward, and fear does not commonly make someone a coward.

    When I say weak, I didn’t say invalid. I merely remark on that you argue syntax rather than actual concern you have for a point.

    Saying my target audience is Christians doesn’t make me dismissive towards you. What I was saying is that you are actually helping me make my points to the ones I am trying to address, because I have commonality with them in which to share and express ideas. This list is geared toward fellow Christians, if it were not, then it would have listed a belief in Christ as bizarre, as most outside Christianity find it strange to believe in someone who lived 2000 years ago.

    You say you are arguing in the affirmative. The affirmative of what? The mormons being bizarre? Every culture seems bizarre to anyone outside of it. Or are you arguing in the affirmative that being more informed somehow makes one’s testimony less valid than another. Or are you arguing in the affirmative that you find my approach slightly rude? if so then that is a matter of perspective and what you think of as internet courtesy. I would add that if you find my approach rude then maybe you are adding moods, intonations, and mannerisms that I have not expressed.

    As far as the reason for you no longer being in church I hope I can resolve your concern and get you on a path to being active again. Starters, you already admitted to a lack of knowledge, so denying the Holy Ghost is not what you are talking about. if so, I urge you to study this principle for this refers to those that obtain a perfect knowledge of the spirit and having received a perfect knowledge deny it. Basically you know the Father and his plan and purposes and you say to his face that you reject him and all he stands for. If you are talking about Murder, then I will teach you this principle. That murder, the unforgivable type, is not the same as conventional taking of another’s life. There is punishment for such, by after that punishment they will inherit glory.
    D&C 76:
    34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
    35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
    36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
    37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

    Unless you put yourself in the same shoes of those that caused Christ to be crucified, you will be able to find forgiveness and receive glory. To remain unforgiven is to be placed in position like Satan, to go through eternity with NO glory and miserable forever.

    I would also address the idea you have of eternal progression, as you think of the kingdoms as if they have some sort of physical barrier between them. There is no barrier. Its about what kind of person you are and the potential in which you will rise. The difference in these kingdoms has to do with our capabilities and responsibilities. How do you plan on growing and showing you have repent when there is no opposition to prove yourself with? This is the only time we have to face opposition. This is the time to overcome sin, because there will be no sin to overcome in the life to come. If you do not do it now, how do you expect to do it in the future? Its fair to say a life time of habit will be with you for all eternity.

    The Father is infinitely forgiving, the only reason why he seems otherwise is because many have failed to understand him.

    The limbo you feel is the one you have placed yourself within your own mind. Come back to church and have joy with the saints of God.

  • huckleberry

    Now I don’t feel as bad when I think I am getting a little long winded sometimes. :)

    Mystern: I have to back up MJ on the clarification of the unforgiving God you talked about. I believe he can and will forgive us based on our obediences to the laws with which we are given. If someone murders another and the law (either religious or political) had taught that person previously that it was wrong, then I think God would be just in his limiting the reward of that person in the next life, whatever you want to believe that reward should be. Though we acknowledge it is none of our decisions to make. The more serious penalties come as in the example of King David who knew full well the plan of salvation and who received much of what he had direct from God or his Prophets and still chose to be an instrument in the death of another for the love of that man’s wife. He will pay the price of that mistake. On the other hand..and I know this is not really comparable, but if you take a young Muslim who is taught from youth to hate all Non-Muslims and that it is his duty to kill for his religion because God told him to then God will judge him based on that knowledge and whether he/she really understood what they were doing was wrong. In the end it may be those who taught the youth that will pay the price, but I don’t have the answer to that.

    God is just and through the merits of his Son made a way possible that he can accomplish his goal which is to return each of us safely home to him. There is no belief more profound than that of the family relationship that exists between the Godhead and man. It is witnessed every day of my life as I raise four wonderful children to see and understand his work and to contemplate how he must feel towards us as we show the same emotions towards our own children that he has demonstrated throughout the scriptures whether it be love, anger, forgiveness, etc. He is a loving, caring Father and will bring us home no matter the cost. Very few will not return and these are the likes of Cain and Judas, etc. (in my opinion)

    Just my opinions, but also not trying to get too deep into the heart of the recent arguments that have taken place.

  • Mystern

    MJ: Please re-read my post. I stated that you had the affirmative. And in regards to what, I was simply stating that you had the burden of proof regarding the truth of beliefs. As the Author of this list, I’d like to point out that it was not geared toward any specific audience whatsoever.

    Please also understand that my lack of understanding has nothing to do with my lack of trying. To say the reason for lack of understanding is always a lack of willingness to learn (“it means you do not understand, and you don’t understand because you are not trying to”), is simply ignorant. You are saying that if you want to, you can learn anything at all. This is not true.

    Regarding your response to why you believe what you do, please repeat is because I cannot find it in your post.

    In regards to what both you and Huckleberry have said, I would like to apologize because I seem to have not made my point clear. What I was trying to say, was not regarding the unforgivable sins. I can see how the confusion arose, and I’m very sorry for that. All I was saying, is that after the final judgment, you end up in whatever kingdom you end up in, and there is no repentance. So, if I end up in the Telestial kingdom, there is no repentance for me, I am stuck there forever. I can never obtain the highest glory of God, no matter what. No matter how much remorse I feel, no matter how much I beg, God will never forgive me enough to allow me into the Celestial kingdom. I can never have spiritual children, I can never achieve the glory of god. You are incorrect MP in saying there is no barrier between the kingdoms, and as proof I offer D&C 76: 109-112
    “109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
    110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall aconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
    111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
    112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.”

    Regarding other Christian religions, after the final judgment, if I end up in Hell, I can not repent at all whatsoever. I refuse to believe in such a God.

    However, my faith (or lack thereof) is not the issue here. The only reason I jumped into this discussion is that I felt you were being unfair to petpeeve, and I felt you were making your posts from a place of spite, invalidating her beliefs, rather than explaining your own.

  • MJ

    You may not have intended it to be geared, but it is, simply by the mechanics of the language and topics you choose. There is a science to writing and at times people have a tendency of accidentally accomplishing something they didn’t set out to do.

    actually I’ve done nothing but defend my beliefs, so I’m not sure what you are saying is left for me to prove. The burden of proof rests on the Holy Ghost and You. Moroni 10:3-5.

    “You are saying that if you want to, you can learn anything at all.” matter of fact that is exactly right. Here’s an old saying for you, “Whether you can or can’t, you’re right.”

    Einstein, Tesla, and Thomas Edison all have quotes about the principle of the need to exercise ones mind. There is nothing that cannot be understood if you seek it. And by not trying also lends itself also to trying to find a correct way. You can try all you might to get passed a wall by walking into it repeatedly, but if you don’t try to go over, around, under or whatever, then I would say you are not trying.

    D&C 76:112 makes no connection to a physical barrier. they could be standing right in front of you and you would not be able to comprehend the entirety of their being. The separator is knowledge, capability, and responsibility. If you are not capable of proving that you will be faithful to responsibilities here, what makes you think you would change in the here after? There is no opposition so how are you changing and proving yourself? its not God that keeps you from growing, it you, because one lets life go by when it’s time to change, then the night comes and you can do more work. However, you are forgiven of the Crimes you committed and do receive glory.

    “The only reason I jumped into this discussion is that I felt you were being unfair to petpeeve, and I felt you were making your posts from a place of spite, invalidating her beliefs, rather than explaining your own.”

    if that was your reasoning, I invite you to reread my post without adding moods, mannerisms, and intonations that you invented, because none of my post came out of spite. So far as I have corrected you own uses of words it seems you add a lot more context to phrases than that’s really there. Such as your quotation to DC 76:112, try reading it from a perspective of spiritual separation which the second death is repeatedly referred to, and everything will start making a lot more sense.

    You see, if you are honest in your stance, I would venture to say that Satan has planted some incorrect interpretations of the scriptures and he cheats your soul. Lasting happiness in this life and the world to come rest in the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. I invite you to read Moroni 10 and I would emphasis the last few verses that talks about this Grace and how you do play a part in becoming qualified for it.

    Huck, thanks for the supporting comment.

  • XxXImagineXxX

    Wow, MJ, petpeeve and Mystern…..quite the argument…well, more like a discussion, but still…..

  • Mystern

    MP: I would simply disagree with the statement regarding force of will and comprehension. Just because my step-father wants to understand math, does not mean he can. After years of trying, he still cannot complete the basic math course required to achieve his degree.

    I never said there was a physical barrier to the kingdoms. I simply said that ones who are in a lower kingdom, cannot go to a higher kingdom. They cannot achieve the glory of a higher kingdom. If you don’t believe me, please ask your bishop. My contention lies in that a basic part of human nature is for their feelings to change. You cannot tell me that I won’t want to repent after 100 years in the Telestial kingdom. How about 1000 years? 1,000,000? How about 1,000,000,000,000,000? Eternity has no end my friend, and everyone changes.

    I don’t particularly want to argue the finer points of LDS theology with you because it’s quite deep and complex. Suffice it to say that doctrine states specifically if you end up in a lower kingdom, you cannot achieve the glory of a higher one. Ever. Period. Many places state this, and I feel this is wrong.

    Regarding my interpretations of your tone and or where you come from, I can only judge by your words, and the words of petpeeve. I’m not saying you were coming from a place of spite, simply that it seemed that way.

  • huckleberry

    You know…faith, knowledge, beliefs aside…I always say that if you believe in God and in a post mortal existence and you end up being wrong then you’ll never know the difference when you die.

    On the other hand if you don’t believe and you find yourself standing in front of the judgement seat…well, I’ll leave that to the imagination.

    I’m not much of a gambler except when I buy stocks, but I think the odds of this gamble are pretty lopsided. 70 years of eat, drink, and be merry? For what?

    Anyway, Mystern, why not trust that God will pass the right judgements on people, and the only people that will end up in the Telestial kingdom will be those who don’t care to repent, those who like their placement. Same for the Terrestrial..after all we are told it is like a paradise beyond anything we could percieve in comparison to this life. If you really have that type of heart, a need to repent, then why wait and take your chances. You don’t have to be a good Mormon to repent and prepare to meet God or even be a Mormon at all. Yes, at some point you (talking generally now) will have to be baptised by one with authority from God and the such, but God is not going to look on a good person from a different faith who is striving to do good with their life any different than he does a Mormon.

  • Mystern

    huckleberry: I suppose it simply has to do with my hope in the human race. My hope that a basic part of human nature is that we will eventually change our ways if we are wrong.

    But then again the very belief in a Heaven and Hell (or in the case of LDS doctrine, the 3 Kingdoms) contradicts that hope doesn’t it?

    I’m sorry, but until you can support an argument that the 3 Kingdoms is not the end (from direct Scripture), I will continue to believe it is, and as such, is unfair.

  • MJ

    “but until you can support an argument that the 3 Kingdoms is not the end (from direct Scripture), I will continue to believe it is, and as such, is unfair.”

    I think this is rather an unfair statement itself, because it assumes that you know all the reasons why someone show be able to progress on kingdom to another. The only reason you give is time. Which in our current perspective is linear. What if there is no more time, and that 1,000,000,000,000,000 is just like 1,000.

    Revelations 10:6
    And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

    Alma 42
    3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
    4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
    5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
    6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
    7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
    8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
    9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
    10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
    11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
    12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
    13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
    14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
    15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

    Also the lord responded to Enoch when asked concerning those that were disobedient during the time of Noah:

    32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;
    33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;
    34 And the afire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.
    35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.
    36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.
    37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

    We all will be held accountable for our own sins and will answer for them, but there is something to be said about who would get more blame, those that ignorantly sin or those that knowingly caused others to sin. You fear that your transgression bars you from the celestial kingdom, you may ask yourself, did you do it knowing that it was wrong, or did your upbringing (all the factors considered) really teach you correctly? the Lord has a plan for you and in the end you will understand his judgment in full and know that it is fair. Have faith that your Father in Heaven loves you enough to provide you with what you can do with the most.

  • Mystern

    MP: Your scripture quotes prove my point. After this “probationary” time there is no repentance. And that’s my point. Why shouldn’t there be? I believe that if human nature does not change; eventually every single person will want to repent. Yes, I’ll be held accountable for my own sins. Speaking from doctrine, I’m an evil, evil man. But I have to say that every single day I change. If our very nature as a human changes after the resurrection, then my argument is null and void. However, LDS scripture states that before we were born, we were spirits, and before we were spirits, we were intelligences. This means by definition that our consciousness has existed since at least that point, and doctrine says that our consciousness will continue to exist for eternity. All I can say is that part of consciousness is the ability to change, for change is required for growth. Scripture says that we will continue to grow after the resurrection (D&C 126 if you’re interested), and because change is required for growth I cannot accept that someone would not change in such a way as want to repent, eventually, at some point in the future.

  • MJ

    Alma 34
    32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
    33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
    34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
    35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
    36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he welleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

    The idea is that if you do not repent in this life, YOU WILL NOT REPENT THEN. There is no more time to repent or change.

    Think about this:

    Why come to this earth? Why take on mortal bodies? Because we could no longer progress, we hit the end to that potential. To come to this life was a choice we had to make because here there is opprotunity for change, for many that was a wonderful opprotunity, for others they feared that it would not work in their favor.

    Abraham 3:
    25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
    26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
    27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
    28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

    Why is it that Lucifer rebelled? Why is that he became Satan? The hebrew meaning of the two names is interesting Lucifer means “light bringer” but when he fell he became Satan which means “opposer”. He was in the presence of God, and had glory, but chose to rebel and to seek the take away the agency of man. Why would he want to take away man’s agency? because in a state of change, such as mortality, the only way to remain the same is to take away everyone’s agency and make them do what you want. Life’s purpose would have been wasted, we would go for change and then not be given the chance to prove ourselves because our Agency is taken away.

    D&C 93
    31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
    32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the alight is under condemnation.
    33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

    When Christ comes on the Earth it is said he will reveal all things. if all things are revealed then all principles will be received as the scriptures are clear that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, by the end of the millennium everyone will have to make that same simple choice they made in the pre-estistance. Whether to accept the plan or not. Those that refuse will join with Satan.

    Revelations 20:
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    D&C 88
    114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all.
    115 For Michael shall fight their battles, and shall overcome him who seeketh the throne of him who sitteth upon the throne, even the Lamb.
    116 This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.

    There will no longer be death, the choices to be made will be made before final judgment which occurs after this great battle. After death you can still make choices, but once Judgment occurs that’s it. The person you are is who you are going to remain because there is no longer time, there isn’t opportunities to change.

    D&C 126 has nothing to do with it, here it is in its entirety:
    1 Dear and well-beloved brother, Brigham Young, verily thus saith the Lord unto you: My servant Brigham, it is no more required at your hand to leave your family as in times past, for your offering is acceptable to me.
    2 I have seen your labor and toil in journeyings for my name.
    3 I therefore command you to send my word abroad, and take especial care of your family from this time, henceforth and forever. Amen.

    Did you mean another section?

  • SoCalJeff

    Tithing is not exclusive to Mormons. Tithing is just as common in the Catholic Church – it’s called the weekly offering (although in my particular Church it is actually referred to as tithing.) And just so you make sure you do in fact tithe, the Church sends you nifty envelopes that are perfect size for checks or cold hard cash. They even have lay church officers collect the dough in the middle of the mass. Nifty.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14741b.htm

    Honestly though…you could use bizarre to describe any religion or religious belief that you don’t understand or choose to believe. I know alot of Baptists who think Catholics have bizarre beliefs, and Christians that believe many Jewish customs are bizarre. Its really all in the eye of the beholder.

    I would point out, as others already have, that the word “bizarre” is loaded and non-neutral language. I probably would get offended too if someone called my beliefs bizarre.

  • Mystern

    MJ: My comment yesterday didn’t get published. I meant the section 76.

    Also, your scriptures prove my point. It’s the fact that you can’t repent after this life that I disagree with. I wish I could have as much faith as you that things will be worked out in the end and all will be done fairly, but I just don’t.

    SoCalJeff: Thanks for the input concerning the Catholics. As I stated in the item on the list, tithes are not uncommon, but in the LDS church they’re mandatory to get to heaven. Also, as I’ve stated before, when I submitted the list, I did not use the term bizarre.

  • SoCalJeff

    Mystern: “…but in the LDS church they’re mandatory to get to heaven.”

    Thanks for your response, I do appreciate the effort you put in creating the list and the commitment you have made to responding to comments.

    I would still suggest, however, that as a Catholic I’ve experienced the expectation that “good Catholics” tithe and its been pretty well documented that in certain Catholic sub cultures, territorial prelates, and personal prelates tithing is just as mandatory as it is in the Mormon Church. It may not be as organized from Rome down (as it is from Salt Lake City down), but there is an expectation that weekly offerings will be given and that there is a spiritual reward for that offering. And it would appear based on the Catholic Encyclopedia reference I gave before it is just as formalized a precess in places like Quebec (but I have no first hand knowledge of it).

    …also I haven’t even touched upon the financial expectations expressed by Rome to recognize an annulment (which is something my wife went through before we were married.)

    And if you are still in doubt…come with me and experience a little of that good old fashion Irish Catholic guilt that is readily dispensed by my mother and grandmother. You will have not doubt about how you will get to heaven ;-)

  • MJ

    This is why i love Catholics :)

    Mystern,
    If you can think of a way you would change after judgment let me know. Because what I’m saying is that if you don’t want to change NOW, I don’t think you will then. That’s “WANT,” because just as much faith as I have that the Lord will take care of things, I have that you can change, but it has to do with your choice.
    When there is no more opposition what makes you think you will spontaneously change our mind? It almost sounds like physical law, “an object in motion tends to remain in motion until acted upon.”
    I think it would be a good idea as SoCalJeff points out nicely, that you might trying attending different churches. I think it will help you find the faith and motivation to make choices now that will lead you to be in the presence of the Father.

  • John

    Question? do Mormons believe that we all become Jew’s once we become true Christians?

  • John

    Question? Do Mormon’s believe Christians become Jew’s, because of the circumcision of the heart?

  • huckleberry

    Answers! No and No!
    First off, if you want an authorized answer then talk to missionaries or go to the church websites mormons.org or lds.org and do a search on your questions. Second off, if you want an opinion of a member who may be less than educated in the doctrine of the church then continue to post on these types of websites. Third off, oh what the heck, I’ll just tell you what I think…remember though, I might be one of the less than edumacated ones.

    Being Christian has nothing to do with it, and Jew’s have next to nothing to do with it. It is believed that through Abraham are all nations of the Earth blessed. This stemming from the Abrahamic covenant the Lord made with him. I like to think of it in terms of he being the first born and having the birth right. All the gentiles would be after that. Being the first born they are the ones who are chosen to inherit the kingdom of God amongst other blessings, provided they abide by all the other obligations and such required for that priviledge. The rest of us then have the opportunity to be adopted into the House of Israel (Jews are called such because they primarily come from the line of Judah) but the House of Israel has always been greater and more significant than what the modern day “Jewish” nation represents. Anyway, by being adopted into the house of Israel we are able to partake of the blessings of the birth right, regardless of prior religious beliefs. But, again, just because we get adopted into that birth right doesn’t mean we get to partake of its blessings if we do not do what is necessary (ie obey the commandments). The method we generally believe for the adoption to take place is baptism.

    Good luck trying to figure out what I just said. I just made most of it up in an attempt to put my thoughts on paper, but I think its fairly close though.

  • allie80

    I have met with missionaries over the past 6 months. I didn’t want to be rude and turn them away so I let them in. Well, during those 6 months, 3 of them finished up their 2 yr missions.
    The new ones who have visited say the same things, with the same tone of voice, all with the same testimony and ALWAYS tell me, just ask God if the Book of Mormon is true.
    Very sweet, nice people but severly misguided. IMO anyway.
    I tell them my opinion…I’m over organized religion. They say, is that what you think we are? Uhhhhhh yes.

  • huckleberry

    So does that mean you are for disorganized religion? or that you are on a plane above organized religion? or are just not religious at all? or none of the above?

    Just curious!

    Isn’t it wonderful to know that you can walk into any church around the world and they would be teaching and testifying of the same things no matter the language. Well, either we do a good job at mind washing and control, or else the spirit of God likes organization and publishing peace and glad tidings in the same way.

    Incidentally, the ask God if the Book of Mormon is true is very common request because most Christians already believe the Bible is the word of God so that is a mute point, but if the Book of Mormon is also true then that means there is greater knowledge that can be otained and one would be blessed by using it to their advantage in the effort to get to know God better which is the only way to obtain eternal life. (John 17:3) – the knowing God part that is. Likewise, if other good books exist then one should search out the best they offer. We should always be improving our fighting poition even if we plan on leaving it tomorrow. (A little Army theory)

    Anyway, hope all works out for you.

  • Gschear

    Listening to one group of Christians giggle at another for bizarre beliefs is hilarious. Those same people will look you straight in the eye and, with a straight face, tell you the Earth is 7000 years old and the Flintstones is a documentary (thanks Lewis Black).
    Defending them?
    No.
    Trashing all of you?
    Yes.
    Magical thinking is the root of all badness.

  • J. R. Reynolds

    Listening to one group of Christians giggle at another for bizarre beliefs is hilarious.

    Those same people will look you straight in the eye and, with a straight face, tell you the Earth is 7000 years old and the Flintstones is a documentary (thanks Lewis Black).

  • J. R. Reynolds

    I won’t ever set foot in THE HATE STATE of Utah, due to their working their followers up in to an anti-gay frenzy and using tax-free church/cult dollars to get 20,000 EXISTING gay marriages destroyed… and not even in “their own” state.

    To those few non-Mormons in Utah, you have 49 other states to choose from.

  • Ray

    I just want to thank you, Mystern, for such an accurate list of our eccentric beliefs. I accept them (literally OR figuratively, with plenty of personal interpretation), and I am as active as it gets, but I understand totally how silly they seem to others. I appreciate your sincerity and honesty in presenting them as accurately as you have.

    For those Mormons using this site to try to convert and/or argue, please stop and re-read very carefully what Mystern has written – both in the original post and in the comments. There is absolutely no animosity in the words, and there is much defending of us as good, sincere people – with whom others simply can disagree and whose beliefs appear bizarre. In the big picture, this is an ally (or, at the very least, a neutral observer), not an enemy. We often talk of being “peculiar people” – so why do we get upset when people see us as such?

    Anyway, I don’t have anything substantive to add. I just appreciate how civil and direct and respectful you have been. So, thanks – from someone who has been around long enough and lived in enough places to be sick of what this post could have been. I’m thankful it wasn’t and just wanted to say that.

  • Mystern

    Ray,

    Thank you for being open. You’re correct, I hold no animosity toward any member or the church itself. I wrote this list to inform, accurately and honestly. Thanks for seeing that.

  • Jeremy Jensen

    “Believe me, I know far more about LDS doctrine than almost any average church member.”

    This is a really cocky and unprovable statement. Your list is pretty accurate, but you have a lot of nerve to presume what “any average church member” knows about their own religion, especially since you left the faith.

  • KCC

    Thanks to all posters for your insights. I live in a very Mormon area of California and appreciate any information I can get in attempting to understand their beliefs.
    Not that I would EVER consider converting, after reading this, it’s even crazier than I thought it was!
    In defense of the Prop 8 thing, most of the Mormons I know voted for it out of fear that their children would be taught homosexual sex in Kindergarten and their churches would be sued for not performing homosexual weddings (dumb, du, du, du, dumb).

  • Seth R.

    Mystern,

    Nice list overall.

    Couple things though.

    First, I don’t think that murder is an unforgivable sin in Mormon doctrine. The scriptural passage in question states that the “shedding of innocent blood” is an unforgivable sin. However, I think there is solid grounds to read this as a symbolic passage – basically, Christ is the only truly “innocent” blood and denying the Holy Ghost is, in effect, crucifying him anew. Thus the “shedding of innocent blood.” It’s basically just another way of describing the denial of the Holy Ghost (which is a rejection of God made with full light an knowledge – pretty dang rare).

    As others have said, if murder is unforgivable, then Moses and Paul are probably in trouble. What is more, there is a story in the Book of Mormmon of an entire group of non-believers converting to the church and repenting of the murders they had committed and burying their weapons of war.

    So no, I very much doubt that mere murder is unforgivable.

    Secondly, I know there are various statements from LDS authorities to the effect that there is no progression between kingdoms in the hereafter.

    However, I have also read statements from OTHER LDS apostles that there is, in fact, progression between kingdoms. So take that for whatever it’s worth.

  • Charlie

    296. Seth R. You do know that the Bible and every one of its verses can be taken in different perspectives and meanings. Innocent blood could mean that … well let me use a metaphorical little story.

    Frank kills Hunter because Hunter is accused of killing Frank’s father but he did not kill Frank’s father. Frank, after killing Hunter who is not guilty of commiting that crime, is guilty of “spilling innocent blood.”

  • Mystern

    Jeremy Jensen,
    I’ll be the first to agree, it is presumptuous of me, yet it’s nevertheless true. Yeah, I’m egocentric, and yeah, it’s unprovable, however, speaking from my experience of all the time I’ve been in the church, I honestly believe I had a better grasp of the gospel than most.

    Did I mention I’m prideful as well ;)

    Seth R,
    Ok, I’ll admit saying a blanket statement such as “You can’t be forgiven of murder” is not entirely accurate, so let me specify. Any form of pre-meditated murder you cannot be forgiven for. I’m not talking about fighting in a war, or killing the man who raped your wife, I’m talking about planning to kill your neighbor to steal his wife. I’m talking about planning to poison the water supply of a city because you don’t like the city. I’m talking about killing someone who has not provoked you in any way, shape or form. I’m not talking about the gray areas, because honestly I don’t know; I’m talking about cut and dry first degree murder.

    Regarding your second statement, I believe you may be referring to the statements about progressing through tiers of the Celestial kingdom. If you indeed have heard church leadership speaking of moving from one kingdom to the next, I’m going to go with the current standard of whatever the Living Prophet says, since he overrules dead prophets and outranks anyone else living.

  • Seth R.

    I didn’t have time to read all the comments (it’s pretty remarkable that this thread has lasted as long as it has). Did you provide a citation to a modern prophetic statement on the subject of murder?

    Who says the murders of King Lamoni’s people (in the book of Mosiah) weren’t premeditated? That seems a dubious proposition.

    Furthermore, if we are going to stretch the rules about what is “pre-meditated” and what is not, you’re going to be writing off an awful lot of murders as “not premeditated.” Insanity would seem to be a defense. So would being in war. So would being really angry. So would being scared, or feeling coerced. It seems you are left with very few real life murders after all the exceptions.

    Maybe Mormon Doctrine has something on it… Not that that book is necessarily authoritative, but…

  • Ryan

    “They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.”

    I’m going to take issue with this…

    I do realize that there are Mormons out there who believe the sort of thing you described up there, but there’s an important nuance that needs to be brought out.

    Standard LDS doctrine does not call for simple polytheism, and it has never mentioned multiple universes. Any belief individual Mormons may hold regarding those things is limited to their own (mis)understandings.

    A good way to understand the Mormon concept of becoming “a god” is to consider a passage where Jesus is praying to God the Father, on behalf of his followers.

    John 17
    “20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”

    We consider both Jesus and the Father to be gods. We hope to someday–through faith in Christ, repentance, and striving to live his words–be so perfectly aligned with them that we will be “one” with them.

    Obtaining the highest level of heaven is not about achieving a rank/title and then foraging out to some alternate universe. It doesn’t work like that. It is about coming to know God, and coming to know as we are known. (1 Cor. 13:12-13)

  • lawscrew

    There is a movie about the mountain meadows murders which is what was referred to in an earlier post (#45) as the forgotton things. The name of the movie is ” September Dawn” with John Vought.

  • Seth R.

    The movie September Dawn was almost universally panned by critics on grounds of sucking eggs. It also sacrificed an objective telling of the story in favor of stupid scenes with the Mormons chanting “blood atonement” like a bunch of medieval warlocks about to sacrifice a virgin. It would have been a great chance to delve into the psychology of how otherwise ordinary people can suddenly snap and commit atrocities. But the movie squandered that opportunity in favor of cheap theatrics.

    If you want to learn about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I’d recommend the following books:

    American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 by Sally Denton

    Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Ronald W. Walker, Richard E. Turley, and Glen M. Leonard

    Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Will Bagley

    The Mountain Meadows Massacre by Juanita Brooks

    The Walker/Turley/Leonard book is by Mormon historians with official ties to the LDS Church. The other books are from sources much less connected to the Church, and some are actually antagonistic to the official LDS position on the incident.

    Whatever you do, don’t go to John Krakauers “Under the Banner of Heaven” for information. Very dumb book, full of historical inaccuracies, and severely lacking in historical research.

  • lawscrew

    Thanks for the correction. Other than stumbling on this webbsite I dont care what the LDS position is on sucking eggs.

    Truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes, but I could’nt imagine worse than a massacre to religiously cleanse the land in a civilized America.

    The salient fact remains these Mormon, LDS, or whatever forerunner denomination of brigham young that led to the Latter day saints; are not led by a Holy Spirit known to most all God Fearing people as “the comfortor” but rather driven by thier own false interpretation of scripture and the evil power of religious zealots over “otherwise ordinary people”. I think the mormon people are other than thier misguided beliefs ordinary people.

    Except of coarse for one named Glenn Beck who is a self described “Sick Freak” that wraps his head with duct tape so it cant explode when pushed beyound the limit of an ordinary persons intellect on an exceptionaly productive fishing expedition for morons on his friday radio broadcast, moron trivia.

    Proves again how the insanity of religion keeps people out of trouble or in this case dragging out a blog to its ridiclous extreme. peace on earth goodwill toward men

  • Jeremy Jensen

    “The salient fact remains these Mormon, LDS, or whatever forerunner denomination of brigham young that led to the Latter day saints; are not led by a Holy Spirit known to most all God Fearing people as “the comfortor” but rather driven by thier own false interpretation of scripture and the evil power of religious zealots over “otherwise ordinary people”.”

    That is so far from being a fact as to be laughable. At best, it’s your own damn opinion. At worst, it’s a mean-spirited attack based solely on the fact that someone disagrees with you on religion.

    The Jon Voight movie was a disgusting propaganda piece that should be rejected by all fair-minded people.

  • Seth R.

    You didn’t read my post very closely.

    I didn’t give you the “LDS position on sucking eggs.” Just about every movie critic in the country thought the movie was basically substandard. That’s hardly a “Mormon view.”

    And I gave you a bunch of book references that are not “Mormon sources.” Juanita Brooks and Bagley are both widely regarded as the authoritative historical sources on the incident by objective scholars who have nothing to do with the LDS Church.

    Of course, I agree with you that there was nothing godly about the massacre itself. No arguments there.

  • lawscrew

    OK unfortunatly the fact remains the LDS massacre happened, (just like the holocaust akmenijhad).

    Does it matter that much to you if im intolerant of mormonism or other religious cults started by false prophets and now want to gloss over the negative truths. I will give you tea or whatever you want(not hot) or buy you lunch if i meet you in person. We could talk about anything but not about the book of mormon. But I will pray with you(with one eye open). just kidd’n.

    To me the LDS and other false religions are like the Alchoholics anonymous groups who gather and speak of a higher power and see a painting on the wall of a giant hand reaching down as to help them. But rather than find Him who spells out plainly how to be saved in the real bible and change, they say”(like a bunch of mormons chanting “blood atonement” like a bunch of medieval warlocks about to sacrifice a virgin, ” my name is and Im an alcoholic”. Then they work at trying to stop drinking and change themselves by these 12 steps. Theres 2 steps in the Bible. Admit it and QUit it.

    So its like the Apostle Paul in the book of Acts who says you people worship and honor even by a statue in his name
    ‘to the unknown God” But you can know this God. ANd thats not by two years of riding a bicycle around passing out literature. Or refraining from certain foods and hanging tassles from your hair jewish friends. Or the Saturday observance 7th day friends. one word, “Jesus” saves Period.

    Oh and its not by wiping out the infidels either mr mohammawhatever.

    The discussions of what view you take of these religious cults like LDS is about as productive (or appealing as sucking eggs).

    At best you joust with the brain cells of your brother of another mother. At worst you just waist time getting Sucked in yourself. But it has a stimulating effect I admit. Use time wisely. Because you will certainly be screwd by law.

  • Seth R.

    “There’s 2 steps in the Bible. Admit it and Quit it.”

    “Jesus” saves Period.”

    Aren’t these two statements contradictory? If “Jesus saves – period” then what role is there for human action?

    Just trying to get a bead on whether you are one of those grace-only Evangelicals I encounter regularly on the internet, or something else.

  • Ruins

    okay you people who argue through comments on this list need to GET LIVES!! you could be doing something soooo much better with your time…..

  • Seth R.

    Like what?

    Some people do World of Warcraft. Some people do fly fishing. Some people obsess about their fantasy football league.

    I do this kind of stuff.

    And since follow up comments are just routed to my email inbox, it really doesn’t take up as much of my time as you’d think.

  • lawscrew

    You got a point Ruins, time is precious. this thing is almost a year old and I stumbled here a couple of days ago looking for something to find to talk about with the prettiest little woman at state farm. She told me she was a mormon and did not celebrate Christmas or birthdays etc.. I felt like she thought I was an infedel trying to defile her when I invited her to church. That put a wild hair in me. What is wrong with singing joy to the world the Lord has come with the rest of us I said.

    Sorry if I offended anyone on this site, jeremy jensen

    Hi Im Jeff im not an alcoholic, or mormon, ( im not good with mormon girls for sure) Im not a grace only evangelical Seth, but Im a square peg that gets tired of people telling me I have to give up spongebob and shape down into a circle or smiley face like them to fit into heaven.

    Seth I think the role for human action is to just be on the recieving end of the greatest gift you could ever get in the world. Step 1. I found Jesus, Step 2. I am becoming more like him. Hes not square or round but he somehow can fit in my heart. Thats whats so hard to get out of my head.

    I get tired of discussing the dos and donts with people who are following His shadow double. (counterfets.)
    Happy New year.

  • Mememe

    Well, #1 rings true to me in some wierd way… though Mormon reasoning just baffles me.

    Seriously, ‘Terrestrial, Celestial and TELESTIAL Kingdoms’ don’t sound made up to the believers?
    The whole Joseph Smith story is just… I don’t know… Are people this gullible?

    Well, heck, some of what’s in the Bible’s just equally devoid of sense, so…
    As long as no one gets hurt, though…

  • Ray

    lawscrew, please at least get your accusations straight so it sounds truthful. Mormons celebrate Christmas and birthdays; Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t.

    Finally, you said, “Step 1. I found Jesus, Step 2. I am becoming more like him.”

    Just so you know, that is the core of Mormon doctrine in a nutshell.

  • Ray

    Oh, and to compare the Mountain Meadows Massacre to the Holocaust is simply heinous and beyond the pale.

  • lawscrew

    Why cant you liberal cultist quit blowing Smoke REYS in my face? It may appear to thinking people that mormon psyche while well intentioned is actually stunting the natural process of spiritual growth to the level of our beloved Diety and should eternalize the fact that religiousness among earthen humans gravitates away from that bar untill we lay down this temporary habitation. Our riteousness is filthy Rags. So your mormon core doctrine is filthy rags, if you believe the bible, Thats why you have a differant Bible. I never said I was righteous, but You say you are?

    Maybe you think Im simple minded but you sound like amenijhad, a delusional creature on a wide road leading to a hot place in denial and attempting to rewrite historical truths. You probably want Hamas to stop shelling only if Isreal does?. More mormon reasoning is what the world needs now hugh? Or should we just torch the whole place and let God sort us all out in the end? Are you trying to start fights? We need to agree on the original undevided one lord one faith one baptism. But that is not good enough right rey, we need a blue book of Mormon, or Islam, or Talmid, or Joseph Smith, or Ellen white, or David Koresh, maybe Tom Cruise is a prophet in disguise and will usher Paul Harvey to the stage to bring us all truth seekers “The r EST of the story”. legalism kills

  • lawscrew

    Oh and the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Holocaust were both perpetrated by the same ungodly evil minded zealots from Hell. There needs no objective telling or shades of grey, it is blatant. Sureley some of you Mormon God people could have made a differance, but I guess you had to be slaughtered for purification. Maybe the next go around, Also when are you outstanding Mormons going to cure Cancer?

  • lawscrew

    You are sick crew Mormons. While trying to attain the higher levels of society and wanting to Be Jesus, you only remind me of the lawyers Jesus rebuked.
    I think your just hanging around to pick the gold crowns out of peoples mouths when they die.

    Hows that for heinous and beyond the pale?

  • Seth R.

    OK….

    I think I understood about a third of that….

    I suppose that since we have history of a few American soldiers slaughtering prisoners of war and raping the local girls in Europe, that must mean that every World War II vet is part of “one sick crew.”

  • Mememe

    LOOOOOOONG rant ALERT!

    To Lawscrew (and Mormons as well, apparently),

    You don’t want to become like Jesus. He was nowhere near perfect.
    He was intolerant, vengeful and irascible. A know it all who really didn’t know enough to pass on to others some of the ideas he defended and tried to convey to the world around him (at least that’s what we get from Scriptures, even the book of Mormon).
    Sort of like a Steven Segal who’s all spiritual and sh*t, but who will kick your ass if you disagree with him in any way. Because he’s right and you’re not. – Feel free to be offended by this comparison, BTW, because we have no idea if the real Jesus was like this. What we read is what some people wrote hundreds of years after he was dead.
    If (the New Testament’s) Jesus were perfect, he would have presented proof he was savior without any shadow of a doubt, and his doctrine would have been accepted by all immediately. Further more, he wouldn’t want others punished, harmed or forgotten because they didn’t believe his origin.
    One word would be enough to reveal how wrong those men on the temple were without him having to ‘turn the moneychangers’ tables’ or ‘send everyone who was buying and selling’ out of there (I imagine yelling at them, too).

    Picture this example:
    Jesus, speaking to everyone at the temple: “Don’t you realize how wrong what you’re doing is?”
    Everyone: “No. Explain to us”
    Jesus proceeds to explain it with absolute, instinctive truths and such an infallible logic, that it could only be available to the son of the Creator.
    Everyone: “Oh… ok, you’re absolutely right. You must be someone very special”
    Jesus: “I’m the son of the one, true God”
    Everyone: “I believe you must be, or you wouldn’t make so much sense and speak so deeply to our hearts“
    Everyone packs up their stuff peacefully and feel they’re doing exactly what needs to be done.
    Jesus is happy, the faithful are happy, the merchants and moneychangers are happy. The world is a better place and Jesus probably isn’t feared, pursued or sentenced to die later on because this is how he behaves.

    Perfection and absolute truth leave no room for error or doubt – such should be the power of God or any almighty power.
    God MUST NOT be accepted because you’re threatened with Hell or bribed with the prospect of later reward in the form of an idyllic second, eternal and suffering-free existence.
    God should be accepted as an inevitability and come from within yourself, naturally and with no teaching, not through books MEN, not gods, wrote. The very Nature of something we can’t possibly understand because we are so limited is what reveals God to us. It’s ridiculous to think such a powerful thing as the Creator of all things would have to ‘persuade’ us by sending His son to us to prove his existence, or select and assign prophets to spread the message – and then observe as nothing of this worked to prove to the whole world He, in fact, is.
    Instead, He would have created us with the imbedded notion that He exists, and no one would doubt it, just like no one doubts they need to breathe air in order to keep living – a newborn baby knows he/she needs air without being told.
    God has to be a self-evident truth or He lacks His most defining characteristics: omnipresence and omnipotence.

    Now, the steps:
    Step 1. – Understand you’re just another part of the universe, equal in importance and relevance, no matter who you are, what you’ve done so far or where you come from. The worms that’ll eat you when you’re buried don’t care if you were Genghis Kahn, Britney Spears or the guy who serves lattes at Starbucks. We’re all just meat bags for about 70 years, then we’re food for those who’re left behind – physical and spiritual food.
    Step 2. – Do the right thing. And you know what the right thing is when you see no one’s getting hurt on your path to being a better person, but instead are joining in. Not through force or blind faith imposed by other people’s ‘teachings’ or dogmas, but because it’s self evident. Only then, you will be closer to God.

    Now, on Step 2, ‘no one getting hurt’ means exactly that. Consider not only what YOU think or say but what OTHERS feel is better for them as well. When the scales are balanced and everyone’s happy, then we’re getting closer. This is nearly impossible, of course, but what else would we be if not human if we didn’t try it?

    God is different for every one of us, even amongst those who say they share the same faith. Your sibling, your parent or your friend, even if they share your beliefs, see God differently than you do because you are different people and have different perceptions of the world around and inside you.
    And everyone believes in God, even those who don’t. An atheist’s explanation for the Universe is simply his vision of God.
    I believe in God too, but I found Him myself, and He’s much simpler and absolute than I can ever fathom. And I like it that way, it’s much more comforting than Heaven – eternity is too frightening anyway…

  • lawscrew

    So you got your own way, truth and life and found where to looooooong rant it.(mememe)
    You are god, you make your own heaven and your ultimate gift to this world is you plan to be so kind and feed a bunch of its worms like everyone else sucking air for a few years. Does’nt get any better than you have it hugh?

    Usually everything is fine untill you get plopped out of your own warm sack of comfort and serenity of perfection and find your hanging upside down, naked scared, screaming, and the man in a white coat who just whacked you, hands you off to the one that through familiar chemistry and undeniably is so loving, you feel so pleased, content and secure like all babies who belonged to God fearing prolife women.
    Why were you considered worthy to come to term and not scrambled up and trashed with all your ideas and individual freedoms, values, morals, defects. I think because in the years you were born people still had a conscience and moral compass that told them right from wrong and mothers probably read scriptures from the maguffy reader and you heard the pledge of allegience and prayer in SChool.

    You are lucky but in the present atmosphere or worse, fly food.

    I agree with the bible you have referred to. He came to us so we would know Him. Then it would be best if we become like Him so others would know the Father.

    How good of a father are you? The first thing that gets aborted in the life of a real man and father is Me Me Me in order to make room for the the things you always wanted but could not get by yourself.

    God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit.

  • Mememe

    You are so small minded you chose to see things your way. Proof of that is:

    1) You assume I’m a man
    2) You assume I am American (pledge of allegiance? The world is very big, you know…)
    3) You assume my family is in any way religious, that I have ever had Scriptures in my house or that they were ever read to me. For all you know, I may be an 80 year old Chinese woman who follows Taoism.
    4) My moral compass were a woman and a man who were completely flawed. But all their family and friends knew them to be good people who would help anyone just because we’re all humans and we all have problems. Neither was religious at all (one still isn’t) and it has never influenced their decisions on right and wrong.

    My view of the world came, in fact, from a substantial amount of grief and psychological trials. I gave up a lot for the sake of others and I’m suffering the consequences as we speak, so making room in my life for the sake of my family or friends was never an issue or a complicated decision. It was the right thing to do.

    I sought the Christian God’s help once as a child (everyone around me did it, so I did as well), but since neither comfort nor hope came from it, I became sceptic and chose to discover if that was all there was.
    It wasn’t. The world itself is a universe and God comes in many ways – your way, my way, everyone’s way. If it wasn’t so, there would be only one religion, not dozens.

    I’m glad you’re so righteous and so sure of your faith, because if you’re doing something in the name of God and He’s not at all what you say he is, you’re pretty much screwed in His eyes. I would only be so sure of my view of God if He spoke to me personally.
    Doing the right thing is the only thing that’ll save you – shame on you for being so selfish and so ignorant that you never understood THAT was supposed to be your God’s message.
    Being so angry and so negative, criticising people for not being the same as you is not only ignorant but also dangerous.
    ALL despots did it, so be careful…

    You seem pretty aggressive and angry. I don’t think God is helping you in the right way…

  • Mememe

    Oh, I forgot, that last comment was for Lawscrew.

  • Mafanwy

    Thith ith thabulous….sorry my lisp…
    might join up….caffeine is well bad eh?

  • elbastardo

    you better bite that lisped tongue. I spit in that cup of coffee your drinking and put that cigarette out you sinning dirty dawg. May all those sinks in your house be blocked until you can no longer wash and may your lisp grow bigger until you can no longer sthpeak! Peace!

  • lawscrew

    If no help or comfort comes from you seeking God, then you should just let Him find you willing to change according to His will. If you need something differrant you have to do something differant. All other gods require man to do something to be worthy(even the mormons), but only one God does all the work to reach out to you, that you recieve.
    Wisdom is the ability to discern differrances between the Christian God and all other gods. The Word of God is the Wisdom of God. If you want to know what God thinks(not lawscrew) or mormons you must understand your Knowledge of God is porportional to your knowledge of His Word. That Word and Wisdom you need will only work proportianal to your acceptance of His will.

    MJ in earlier posts seems to quote the Bible well and because he unnecessarily adds the blue book quotations of some guy named Nephi(saying his words are the words of Christ)then you can’t really credit his faith. Why? Because you will be thwarted and diverted by all of the religions in this world who have sought to add or take away anything from the bible, including but not limited to the LDS blue book. Just as discouraged and void of Gods power is someone who may know everything about the Bible yet does not have a relationship with its author intimately by a spiritual awakening that gives you a heart transplant. Easiest trap to this is living with hypocrite people who preach but do not practice it and have a scewed view of thier world.

    You can be sure of faith in God if you gain His view, but if you prefer to have your own view, or mormon view or any other etc.. than simply Christ centered you can’t help but be frustrated. Because of your limited understanding of His word , Your eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of ” you ” the things God has in store for those who love Him. God wants to replace the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, that His Spirit might dwell in you, and you might have provisions spiritual and physical, also you might have fellowship with others.(Not like minded believers) But believers who have the mind of Christ. Led by Gods Spirit, and who according to scripture are “the church” or “Body of Christ”.

    iths justh besthh to rethisth contraversy and be at peeth with all God and men

  • Mememe

    Lawscrew:

    You’re free to keep your faith . No one has the power to take it away, and that’s how it should be – it’s yours and it has worked for you so far. Fine.
    Just don’t try to undermine other people’s faiths with arguments like the ones you’ve presented because it will not work.

    Your arguments’ biggest flaw is this: The Bible is not God’s word. It’s someone else’s, it’s by the people who wrote it – and we all know it wasn’t God. Heck, it wasn’t even the prophets/apostles/whatever themselves! The men who wrote the Bible were paraphrasing from oral tradition, centuries later after everything happened, and even I (who don’t believe the mystical part of the Bible, but accept the historical part, even if it’s told from one single people’s point of view) think it’s offensive to Abraham’s God, that these men’s views on His word are taken with such certainty and self-righteousness. I hear pride is a sin, btw.

    Numerous and poor translations have been made from the original books and have led to countless misinterpretations and errors – even crimes against humanity because of those errors: the Inquisition, Holy Wars (the very combination of these two words is laughable), the Crusades, torture, slavery, the Holocaust…
    One example of how misinterpreting of words can have such an impact is Mary Magdalene, who was considered to be a prostitute for hundreds of years and only later on it was admitted she was not the same woman Jesus protected from the stoning and an entirely different person altogether. The Church had to issue an official announcement, correcting this assumption and elevating Mary Magdalene to sainthood. This had no consequences for Mary Magdalene herself, obviously because she was dead, but gypsies, Jews and people of ‘alternative’ lifestyles were killed by supposedly ‘Christian’ Nazis not so long ago, who believed to be part of a superior race, descendent from angels who came down to earth and mated with human women (Hitler read Nietzsche, a religious nut, and took it literally).

    The Bible, as we know it, was cut ruthlessly a few hundred years ago by a few members of the church; from the numerous books only a couple were accepted as true – and their number even changes according to which Church you ask (orthodox, roman catholic, etc).
    The current version was compiled/translated by St. Jerome and even now, King Jame’s bible contains so many errors that new versions had to be done so the texts would be more faithful to the originals.

    Is the message still the same? I’m not so sure – just one word or a common name can change the entire meaning of a sentence.
    Plus, many books, completely set apart from the Bible have gained such importance to less informed believers, that nowadays stuff like the seven deadly sins (not in the Bible) or associating the name Lucifer to an fallen angel who turned on God and became the Devil (not in the Bible either) are accepted as truth. It’s all very complicated and confusing and it’s wrong to say ‘I know the truth and you don’t’, because no one knows it, really.
    Do you, for example, accept the Old Testament and follow all of it, or, specifically the Torah, given to Moses by God Himself? I don’t think you do…
    Mohamed was given the word of God as well (Allah is Abraham’s God – and Jesus is a prophet in Islamic faith!) and yet you don’t consider the Qur’an the word of God.
    Because you know better, because that was what you were taught…
    Basically, you’re like a horse with its eyes covered from the outer world and you prefer it that way.

    One more thing – I wrote that seeking God gave me no hope or comfort and you say it was because I wasn’t willing to change to accept Him. Well, this happened when I was 8-9 years old. I don’t think I had the maturity of mind to consciously force myself to refuse to change. I even took first communion, so, again, that was not it.
    I was trying to get comfort from wherever it came. It came years later, when I had grown up already.
    I was never denied God in whichever form just because my parents weren’t religious – fortunately, I was always encouraged to seek my own answers without prejudice and I was never forbidden to seek God, read the Bible or attend mass. I just didn’t find Him like you did, I found a much less restricting, comforting and forgiving form of the ultimate power of the universe.
    And one which has no limits, like your God definitely has.

    Keep your faith; you’re entitled to do it, and you have every right to defend it. Some of its teachings are very beautiful and ethical – but please be tolerant and don’t claim to own the truth. We have so much to learn yet.

    … why ith everyone lithping all of a thudden?

  • lawscrew

    Some of are learning yes. 70 YR OLD BABIES AND 4 YR OLD PRODIGIES, whAT TO DO WITH A MIND THAT KEEPS LEARNING BUT NEVER COMes TO THE TRUTH. yOU SOUND SMART, AND MAKE AS MUCH SENSE AS ALBERT EINSTIEN. hAVE YOU READ God Vs. Science 1921? You can be nice and placate the masses with religion.(the opiate) But trying to please everyone is the definitian of frustration. It cannot be done. Nor doing the same thing over and again and expecting differant results. That is Insanity.

    So your search for God was through a cataholic approach? It is good for some, like you say. But It was not Saint Peter the man they made a saint who CHrist was talking about that would build his church. Rather it was the “Solid Faith” of peter in response to Christs questions. Upon that “solid rock of faith”, I will build my church. At that time people sought to worship Peters, Pauls, Appollosos words, However Jesus said to them then as He intends to say now, For the sake of the Kingdom message they preach, let them be. If they are not for me then they are against me. So as Peter had faith then, so now it is each person that has that same faith who is called a “Rock” of the church and it is by faith not human strenghth. So you will stand for something or fall for anything. According to mememe fall 4 everything.

    Any faith or religion that adds or takes away from the finished work of Jesus is therefore a false religion or an Anti-christ faith. Especially if it denies Jesus is the Christ. I cannot accept or passivley condone counterfiets.
    God in his perfect wisdom and precise plan has devised a way for the wheat and the tares to grow up side by side untill the day of harvest as it is mentioned, when he will save one and discard the other. Somepeople cannot accept a God that would be like that or as mentioned above appear to be unjust or evil. So it is people who are led astray by doctrines and well intentioned teachers, intelligencia, orators, and salesmen that all the more need to search from an open mind and heart to find God and His love. It is Good news, Peace joy, love, goodness, self control, all benifits and blessings.

    What is a sad situation in the future is when some people will stand before Him and say “Lord Lord did we not stand for you and preach for you and do even miracles in your name…?(paraphrased) And he will say to them; ” Depart from me ye workers of iniquity …… for I never knew you.

    So all you need is love? George John and Ringo, & Paul.
    Well I do not see it any where in the musilm culture, Osama, In fact why do you placate muslims by your reasoming mememe? Islam is not a peace loving faith. Yet you must be suggesting it is the intolerance of people like me that are a danger to the open free practice of Islam, or mormonism, or catholicism, or “anyone who does’nt believe like you”. When did Islam ever try to open thier doors to all faiths in muslim countries? Yet you think we should allow them to set up camp here to get ready to cut off your heads? Yes I know that was very immature and flammable language, but what should you call it? Grow a pair and be men America! For you women and MeMeMe s whatever you want to be called, Take a stand for righteous thinking. Show your children how to think for themselves and that upon some standard of decency and truth in righteousness. You cannot find that apart from the BIBLE. Nowhere till you are laying on the edge of this life and looking into the next will you find righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    Why is Christianity the one faith that is always debased and attacked while everyone must be tolerant of all faiths? It is because the roots of this Great America go deep into the Judeo-Christian Faith. This is your mission accept or deny it. You will be accountable for what happens. Remember the saying? They came for all these other typrs of people but no one helped them, then they came for me and no one was left to help me. You know what I mean?

    Im Lawscrew, and you and I are screwed by the LAW. Nevermind the facts. You are saved by Grace. Gods Amazing grace is the only answer.

    Now let the dogs of war begin thier unyielding rants of peace and tolerance as they did when the martyr Stephen pierced their hearts with his passive candy coated politically correct kind words. Ala akbar!!!!!

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  • Jaz

    Joseph Smith was a conman, nothing else, he got lucky by convincing others that faith would bring riches and power. Who can possibly believe his stories? come on get real. VERITAS VOS LIBREBETS

  • Seth R.

    A strange accusation to make, considering that few of his followers ever got rich. In fact, they went through significant financial collapse and were driven out of 3 states and lost all their property – even during Joseph’s lifetime.

    You’d think someone would have noticed it wasn’t working.

    Seriously though, Joseph never preached a “Prosperity Gospel” and that’s not why people followed him. They followed him because they felt he spoke for God, not because they thought they were going to get rich.

  • Jaz

    What about the power that he and his followers gained? to the extent that Joesph Smith stood for President. Are we to believe the rantings of a 14 year old boy, and why are Masonic Teachings and signs used in the Temple ceremonies? It just seems that Joesph Smith used whatever he could to give creedence to his claims.

  • Seth R.

    What power?

    And why shouldn’t we believe someone who is 14? Are you saying you wouldn’t listen if a 14 year old came up to you and said the building was on fire? Fact is, people grew up earlier in those days. A lot of their 14 years olds were more mature than about half of today’s 30 year old bloggers.

    As far as Masonic symbols… who cares? If they convey the right symbolic meaning, I frankly don’t care where they came from. Joseph was a religious innovator. And I don’t consider that a bad thing. Entrepreneurship is the heart and soul of the American experience.

  • Jaz

    Who cares about Masonic symbols?? well I would have thought that your Church would be concerned at using such doctrine to support their own teachings. Masonic doctrine was well established long before Joseph Smith had ‘revelation’ are we to believe that in his ‘visions’ he was told that in fact the true meaning of such doctrine and the meaning of the signs and symbols had to be changed to fit with the Church he was told to establish? furthermore if Joseph Smith was told ‘not to join any other Church’ as they were ‘abominations’ why did he become a Mason? and why did he join the Methodist Church eight years after stating that he had been told in his ‘visions’ he should lead the one ‘true’ Church? As for believing a 14year old boy if they said that the house was on fire – of course we would, because there would be evidence that the statement was true, not so with Joseph Smith’s stories – everything has a convienient answer. The ‘plates’ for instance, how come only Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey could see them? and is it not also convienient that they ‘baptised’ each other – if baptism must be of water then Joseph Smith was not of authority to ‘baptise’ Oliver Cowdery unless God held Joseph Smith under the water first. I agree that people had to grow up quicker in those days, and stand on their own two feet in order to ‘make a living’ and many were preaching, teaching, or selling ‘snake oil to cure all ills’ in order to survive. If Joseph Smith found a ‘gap in the market’ at the time then that is fair enough but his claims do not hold water in today’s society. If his story was presented at Court as evidence, then my friend, I am sorry to say he would be found quilty of many sins.

  • Jaz

    VERITAS VOS LIBREBETS

  • Struth

    Some South Park episodes will everyone what they need to know about any religion.

  • Me

    Man is so perfect, science knows everything.
    Is there proof of anything?
    If we as man could prove any one religion was true, where would we be as a world?
    Is the devil real? How do we know? Is deception real?
    How do we know the bible to be 100% correct?
    Was Judith really Jesus’s best friend?
    Jesus dying was a plan, right?
    Our science knows DNA to be a 100% correct, right?
    We are man, we don’t make mistakes.
    We are Man, we don’t hate those who are different.
    We are Man.

  • Uh…

    It might not make much sense to most people, But I’m mormon, I believe it entirely. I know I am not brainwashed. The thing I see it as is this: The true church will not be generally accepted for a long time. The church is growing rapidly for a reason…

  • Skeptic

    “I believe it entirely. I know I am not brainwashed.” Sounds like you have been brainwashed!!!!!

  • Jaz

    Will someone please answer the question ! All you get is avoidence from Mormons – if you dont know, then say you dont know – show some thought and try to be impartial.

  • Baxter

    “The true church will not be generally accepted for a long time”

    That’s not a reason to believe.

  • Seth R.

    Since you asked Jaz, why not…

    First on the baptism thing –

    you don’t need to be baptized yourself in order to have authority to baptize someone else. You are confusing current LDS Church tradition with requirements.

    Secondly on the Masonry thing –

    Why is it so important that everything Joseph Smith came up with be completely original? Did you ever consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the Masons got a lot of things right and possibly preserved a lot of the old original religion in their ordinances? If so, why shouldn’t Joseph have incorporated their ceremonies into the new religion.

    Just because something’s been done before doesn’t make it wrong. I’ve always felt that the Masons managed to preserve quite a lot of the ongoing ancient religious tradition. I don’t know why they are such an issue for you.

    Surely you have better objections to Mormonism than “Freemason cooties?”

    Total non-issue.

    As for your comments about the outlandishness of Joseph’s claims or the secrecy of how he handled the plates –

    Well, if you are a non-believer this will be an issue for you. If you are a believer, it probably won’t be much of a concern at all. But either way, Joseph’s actions here don’t constitute very convincing evidence for or against his claims.

  • LDSandHappy

    It is always funny to hear people defend or attack the Mormon church. I am a convert to the church…not a mindless drone that got brainwashed into an accult. LOL When people do not understand something, they fear what they don’t know. I don’t know why that is exactly. There are many religions out there that are ‘usually’ for bettering the human soul. The Mormons are no different. I was very anti-Mormon, anti-Johovos, anti-Scientology because I thought that they were going to ‘control’ me and that I would have no choice and just be reprimanded all the time. I had enough of that as a kid and didn’t want any more. :) Anyway, I have found that the reason this church works for me is because everything they teach makes sense to me. Nothing they teach makes me a worse person. Nothing they teach makes me hurt anyone else. Nothing they teach makes me take away anything from anyone else.

    First thing I was told was to never judge ANY church by the people. The gospel is what you judge a religion on and whether or not you believe it is all up to the individual. Article of Faith #11 – We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

    There is not one person on this planet, in my opinion, that is not a hypocrite because… most of us are TRYING OUR BEST to be better people. Just because we are Mormons (Christians), does not mean that we will be perfect in living what we all know to be what is true and right. It just means that we believe that to be a true principle and are STRIVING to overcome the natural man and become better each day. Believe me when I say that I have MUCH to overcome and I can NEVER be perfect in my lifetime. That does not make me a bad Mormon. It makes me a perfect human being.

    I loved the concept in this church about having forever families. I loved the concept of God being our Heavenly Father that loves us like we love our own children. I was raised in other churches to mainly ‘fear’ God and the consequences of my actions. I don’t fear God anymore. I fear not being with Him.

    The Mormon church gives the Commandments of God as God reveals them. The members can choose to live by them, justify them away, or turn their backs on them. To each his own, but the gospel itself is what it is.

    If any of you are curious about the main beliefs of the church, we teach our children what the Mormons call “Articles of Faith”. You can google them and let me know what you think of them. I find them to be outright true and make sense to me fully. Thanks for listening to my opinion.

  • Teen

    I just don’t understand how any mormon who actually understands their religion can believe it is at all related to the Bible. I mean honestly, holy crap.

  • lds defender

    teen, read the bible again, alot of the lds beliefs are supported by the bible, baptisms for the dead, 1 corinthians 15.

    need for prophets ephesions ch. 4.

    1 corinthians ch. 15 different degrees of glory, i think vs. 40ish. not sure

    not to mention another scripture which says somthing like ( i new a man in body or out of body i cannot tell, and mentions somthing about a 3rd heaven. (found in new testament)

    spirit prison/paradise, Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with him in paradise, and also it says in the new testament that Jesus when and preached to the spirits in prison.

    tithing malachi 4:5-6 i beleive, ifyou dont pay tithing you rob God.

    theres actually quite a bit of scriptures from the new testament which backs of lds teachings.

    …. many christians believe that we go to heaven or hell directly when we die.. i ask you, how can we go to one place or the other(heaven being living with God) if we havent even received judgement, or judgement day has not even come yet.

  • Teen

    You are missing the point.
    Baptism, Tithing, Judgment, The new man…all of those are important, but they are merely particulars. What good do the particulars do us if we forget the Universals. The universals are so much important the particulars. The Christian church itself has more varied believes concerning all of these, it doesn’t matter. What it comes down to is, was Jesus Christ in fact God? Are we forgiven by Him or by what we do about the particulars? Are we within the Religion of Works or Savior?

  • Seth R.

    Mormons believe that Christ’s grace is vital, crucial, and necessary for salvation.

    But it is not sufficient.

    The person has to choose Christ and continue to do so throughout his or her life. Otherwise that grace doesn’t do any good.

    If grace was all that was ever needed, it basically turns God into one big puppeteer playing a twisted game with people’s lives.

  • Teen

    What do you mean by that Seth?
    You mean that if God chooses to be the only way to salvation, and he has made himself as the only way to heaven…it is sinful and sadistic of him?

  • momo

    Im LDS and you people need to learn more about the religion and more on what these things mean and we dont believe in more then one wife anymore we dont drink things with caffine in it because its not good for your body you may think it is but its not and theres 6 places you go after you die but first you wait for the 2nd comming after you all die youll see its true you may reject it now

  • mormon believer

    I dont know why people ars so intrasteaed in peoples underwair bathtism for the dead is no weirder then bathtising a baby for sin than gay marrige marrige in the temple and work for the dead makes more sence than gay marrige

  • Teen

    People are interested in the underwear rule because it is strange. Humanity is a curious animal.

  • Jaz

    What a lot of old hokum, rules put in place to give power to Joseph Smith and to make people subservant. Joseph Smith’s history should be looked at, if he was alive at the time he would be part of Barnum’s circus, the only thing missing from his reportoire is selling snake oil.

    VERITAS VOS LIBREBETS

  • jakrandom

    Well since parts of mormonism agree to parts of christianity, it must be true!
    I’ve got to go, a talking snake is telling me to kill all pregnant virgins.

  • alaspooryorick07

    Actually you are all a bit misguided.
    Since i work for Santa Claus (yes the real santa claus), I have a bit of insight into the truth behind the mormon beliefs that you all criticise.
    The fact is, Jesus came to the new world and started a family. His half native offspring (dark skinned as a punishment for the Lost Tribes sins), have now filled all of the positions of power in our new hiphop culture. In fact, Santa Claus himself is the great great great grandson of Jesus. Why else do you think he gives out presents, and how else do you think he gets in your house? Jesus lets him in.
    So since Santa is the new profit (I shook his hand, he’s actually an angel), he has decided that if you want to go to any of the Mormon approved heavens, you must show up at his office, dressed in your funny underwear, and bring your tax documents because it turns out that Joe Smith underestimated Gods fiscal needs, and he is actually going to need another 10 or 20 percent. If your short on time and funny underwear, you can send the funds to Santas paypal. Hit me up and i’ll give you the info.

  • LDS_chick

    I just think it’s hilarious how many people are getting worked up over this. C’mon people! It’s just a blog! If you aren’t LDS, cool, to each their own. Just because we believe something that, for ourselves, is true does not mean we’re attempting to change how you feel or believe. According to you, we’re crazy; according to us you’ll eventually realize we aren’t.

    P.S.
    Garments aren’t underwear. They don’t sell them at Victoria Secret, and Hanes doesn’t make them. Research, people, research!

  • Mark

    352. LDS_chick : I don’t personally have a problem with peoples’ beliefs, but a church that requires you to pay money or risk “eternal damnation”… That seems a bit ripped off to me :(

  • Teen

    Everyone settle down, settle down. It is not like we are arguing on beliefs concerning the afterlife or any other ETERNAL thing.

  • Austin

    He is Thomas S. Monson. He is Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(also called Mormons) my church. With the lots of god thing, yes we believe that, but we only worship 1 god. The other Gods are for people on other worlds far away. NOT aliens, they look just like us.

  • Austin

    Thomas S. MOnson in # 7!

  • Seth R.

    Austin, LDS belief does not require the conclusion that God the Father is only the God of this world and that other planets have separate gods for theirs. In fact, Mormon scripture seems to strongly indicate that God the Father is the God of everything, and all other gods merely derive their own power and authority from Him.

  • Fenriz218

    Verily I speak unto thee, that I hadesth a Mormon room mate in ye College who was not only an ordained priest but who hath boozeth, whoreth and smoketh the herb of Jeahova like ye ol’ motherf***er …

    … but I never realized that they were THAT coo-coo!

    … and there can be no doubt that they got the “Multiple Worlds and Multiple Gods”-bit straight out of a DC comic (before Infinity-Crisis!).

  • JR

    coleman…you said
    “I am not even close to being wierd and i am a mormon. How will any other religion liked it if we started doing to what you are doing to us? At least we don’t make fun of other religions.”

    No, you just refer to the Catholic church as “great and abominable church”
    Also look up “Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

    huckleberry….you said
    “Yeah, can’t imagine much good coming from a 14 year old…although there was that time where someone who was 12 was able to intelligently sit in the midst of Doctors and astound the people who witnessed his understanding. I guess he was just a special case though.”

    You presume to compare Joey to Jesus? Are you wearing you holy underwear too tight?

    MJ I do not believe that Mormons are Christians as we Christians DO NOT believe that God is flesh and Blood, living on planet Kolob, BUT we DO believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, not the Adam/God rantings of Brigham who claims Adam/God had sex with Mary.

    Seth R. ….you say
    “A strange accusation to make, considering that few of his followers ever got rich. In fact, they went through significant financial collapse and were driven out of 3 states and lost all their property – even during Joseph’s lifetime.”

    I’d guess that the ability to spend well over a billion dollars refacing a SHOPPING MALL in SLC would qualify as rich…..and decadent.

    335. Uh… …you say
    “It might not make much sense to most people, But I’m mormon, I believe it entirely. I know I am not brainwashed. The thing I see it as is this:
    The true church will not be generally accepted for a long time. The church is growing rapidly for a reason…”

    One of the reasons being that you put aside the previous bigotry and opened up Africa where you can dupe poor uneducated souls.

    The burning in your breast is heartburn you numbnut. :)

  • Just a mom

    Dear 346 Momo,
    You say other’s should learn more of the religion, you too should learn more, as you too, are mistaken in that you say, “and we dont believe in more then one wife anymore we dont drink things with caffine in it because its not good for your body you may think it is but its not and…” First, God is infallible, so he wouldn’t change his mind… saying polygamy is right and should be practiced and then change his mind. AND yet it is, according to your D&C practiced after life (which breaks down by the way to mean that only men will become Gods and the women will continue to be one of their many wives). Also, did you realize that your book of Mormon is against polygamy (fact, and this is just one of many, many contradictions in your own documentations). When you say, you do not drink caffeine, do you realize that your “D&C 89-9” actually states “And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.” which means that all hot, liquid, drinkable fluids (nothing about caffeine) should be drank and should also mean that you should not bath in hot fluids, as water is a drinkable fluid and according to your D&C law –all hot drinks are not for the body…’. I do understand your desire to want to believe, my own daughter is a practicing Mormon, much to my dismay and I only wish and pray ( and I do pray to God every day “in Jesus’ name”) that she will find the true truth and leave this sad and out of control cult behind her. May the one and only true God and his only begotten son, bless you and keep you, even in your time of misguided longing for his love and acceptation.

  • Mark

    360. Just a mom : “…hot drinks are not for the body or belly.” which means that all hot, liquid, drinkable fluids (nothing about caffeine) should be drank and should also mean that you should not bath in hot fluids, as water is a drinkable fluid…”

    Yes, water is a drinkable fluid – no argument there – but I think that if someone looked at that particular tenet as “Fluids prepared specifically as a drink.” then you can’t really blame them.

  • Just a mom

    CORRECTION.. I appoligize, when I wrote
    hot, liquid, drinkable fluids (nothing about caffeine) should be drank…..
    What I meant was Should NOT be drank…

  • Teen

    It is called the American Islam for a reason

  • JR

    Teen
    I think Joe and Mo had a lot in common.

  • Teen

    Dude

  • sallysweet

    Half of my family is Mormon. I don’t personally believe what they believe, but I respect that they have their set of ideas, just as they do the same for me. Although some of their beliefs baffle me.

  • sallysweet: I know exactly how you feel.

  • JR

    Ever wonder where the expression “phony as a three dollar bill” came from?
    Look up Joey and the boys and their Kirtland Safety Society “Anti-Banking” scheme. They produced three dollar bills, a lot of debt, and many ex-mormons.
    How could anyone follow a horny con artist who was arrested TWICE for fraudulent actions. Remember that he was arrested before he dreamed up his Mormon money making scheme, for treasure seeking with his hat and magic rocks, in New York.
    I really should be selling bridges in Utah. What a bunch of suckers.

  • Justin

    Hello everbody! Yes, I an a Mormon, prefferably a Latter Day Saint. Look guys, I’ve lived this way of life for 17 years and despite what anyone or any other religion may say, there is no other truer way of life on Earth. Explaing exactly what we feel as children of God is like explaining what water tastes like. If you want ice cream, would you go to a pizza place? If you want to know about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, become a part of it, don’t get info from non members or gossip. We would really apreciate it. Thanks!

  • Justin

    And also, how would you feel if I called you phony, horny, and a sucker? Yes, we know what those things mean. Yeah I mean you “Crimanon”!

  • oouchan

    Justin: No need to recruit here. I have my way of life and you have yours. I am happy with that way and hope that you are happy with yours. We don’t need to convert others to enjoy life nor do we need to change ourselves to follow what we believe. We each have that right. :)
    Thanks!

  • Maggot

    370 Justin: And also, how would you feel if I called you phony, horny, and a sucker?

    I would feel pretty shitty. Then, I would stop being a phony and a sucker.

  • JR

    My step daughter joined the cult a couple of years ago, and has been absolutely miserable since. She thinks that there is something wrong with her, when in fact, there is now way she could live up to their lopsided standards.
    She’s not married so she locked out of heaven anyway, right?
    Do Mormons sell alcohol and porn? No you say. Stop in at a Marriott’s Inn, have a couple of drinks at the bar, and order up some “adult” programming in your room. Then find out who owns the chain.
    Anything, including lying, cheating, and murder was fine for Joey and the gang, in the name of PROFIT (note the spelling).
    Those TBMs who are born into the cult are to be pitied, led by the halter down the path like poor little sheep.
    Big surprise coming at the end when you find out that Kolob was a figment of Joey’s imagination, along with the celestial suburbs in the sky. And you don’t get 200 wives submitting to your every need.
    But ignorance is bliss. Just don’t try to sound credible. I have been trying to find an open-minded Mormon for some frank discussion, then I realized that it was the same as searching for a giant dwarf. No such thing.
    The apologist’s feeble explanations for all the failings and contradictions in the BoM, and that treasured little gem of a farce, the Book of Abraham, are the saddest bit of horse-pucky I’ve ever run across.
    And our local pizza shop sells ice cream too.

  • Justin: I have No Problems with what you believe, nor do I have a problem with what parts of my family believe. So I wonder where this attack is coming from. How about you read all of the comments and focus on the ones where I DEFEND your beliefs.

    So Get Bent.

    phony? You’d be a liar, I’m a ball of brutal honesty.
    horny? Always and I’m every open about it, you know, that whole honesty thing
    sucker? I stopped being a sucker when I GREW UP.

    I think you should do the same and look around and acknowledge who your allies are.

  • oouchan

    372. Maggot: Funny…you left off one….. :D

  • Rathje

    Nothing more fun than watching bitter mental 13 years-olds jack-off to their own posts.

    Glad life looks like shit to you JR. Maybe once I stop believing in Santa Claus, I can buy a cool jacket and sit around sneering at all the “little people” too. I mean, what a bunch of retards for thinking that life means anything more than what you find in the bottom of a back-alley dumpster.

    Not like us cool people eh? We got our eyes open!

    Maybe they don’t see anything but a world of filth and cheap infomercials, but hey – at least they’re open!

    Tell you what… Here’s a quarter. Go call a therapist who cares, and tell him how religion took away your lunch money. Then go check Craigslist and see if you can buy yourself a life.

    Oh, and quit making out with yourself online. You’re getting the screen dirty.

  • Maggot

    oouchan: I have my limits, you know.

  • oouchan

    Maggot…Same here. :)

    Oh, look…a troll. Thanks for adding nothing to this discussion. :)

  • Rathje

    Just following the general trend.

    By the way, if I stick smiley face behind my posts, does that make it all OK? :)

  • oouchan

    Rathje: The trend is to add your opinions, thoughts and experiences. Not to attack without adding value. Justin attacked one of the posts above and that post is being defended.
    Smiley’s work when you want to take the “sting” out of a comment. :)

  • JR

    Rathje: Your post doesn’t really seem to convey ANY message, pro or con about anything. Life doesn’t really look like shit to me, even after a year and a half in Afghanistan, though I have seen my share of shit (and just read some).

  • Just a mom

    Rathje: I can’t for the life of me, understand any of what you said in # 376…?? When you say ‘they’ who are you referring to, the LDS or the comments made by non-Mormons? I think the debate here is -if there is any truth or facts to what the mormans beleve and how they can not see what other’s see with regards to so much proof that Joe was scammer and if Joe was not real and valid then how can any thing based on his word be true. I know, I, myself has even said… but they have great family values and everyone is so nice and the missionaries can’t do enough to try and help people out with everything… still when all is said and done, if the belief stucture is based on a lie apon lie, then sadly these wonderful but nieve followers are headed for a very sad realization either some time in their (this) lifetime or in the hereafter. I wish I knew what to say or do to make it all make sense, especially for my daughter but all I can do is believe that my God through his son Jesus Christ will never put away or punish good people for trying to be better people, even if they are breaking the first, true and proven comandments and that is that
    #1 I am the Lord your God
    #2 You shall have no other gods before me
    #3 You shall not make for yourself an idol
    Joe says there are many Gods
    Joe says he is/will be a God
    Joe made himself an idol and each TBM idolizes him
    I think I have said enough for now…

  • Seth R.

    Just a mom,

    Mormons agree with numbers 1, 2 and 3.

    Joseph Smith never said there would be competing gods. All he did was repeat Jesus’ call for us to become one with God – IN THE SAME WAY HE IS (see John 17:22-23). That’s godhood.

    It never implies that after I am dead, I will fly off to my own corner of the universe and rule it however I want without reference to God. Anything a Mormon does in the hereafter will be done by the mind, will, and power of God the Father and none else.

    And incidentally, we Mormons do not “idolize” Joseph Smith any more than Evangelicals I meet online “idolize” Paul the Apostle.

    You appear to be pulling your facts about Mormonism from “The Godmakers.”

    That is not a credible source of information about the LDS faith.

  • JR

    Seth R.
    In response to your “plurality of Gods issue:

    Joseph Smith wrote, “In the beginning, the head of the gods called a council of the gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and (the) people in it.”
    Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 349; quoted in Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults, (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1997), 220.

    The Pearl of Great Price states in the Book of Abraham, “And they (the gods) said: let there be light and there was light. And they (the gods) comprehended the light, . . . and the gods called the light Day and the darkness they called Night. . . .” In these two chapters, the plural designation “gods” is used over fifty times.

    Whereas in Christianity

    The Bible clearly teaches monotheism. This truth is taught in Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Isaiah writes about God, “Before me there was no god formed, nor will there be one after me.” There was no god created before or any to come for there is only one God. Later he adds, “You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock: I know not one.” God knows of no other, not because God is limited in knowledge, but because there is no other like Him in existence.

  • JR

    Incidentally Seth R, what version of the Bible are you quoting from?

  • Seth R.

    I never said otherwise JR.

    The passage uses the plural “gods” true. But these beings are all considered subordinate to God the Father, and any power they have comes solely from him. Thus, despite the existence of multiple divine beings, there is still only “one God” governing the universe.

    Incidentally, the use of the word eloheim (“god”) in the Old Testament can often be taken either singular or plural in the original Hebrew.

  • Just a mom

    Dear Seth,
    I have never read ‘The Godmakers’, but know the book, however I did attend the LDS church as both a ‘investigator’ and as a ‘baptized Mormon’ and this is what they taught me, in fact I tend to question everything and at one point I had at least 4 highly respected, knowledgeable Mormons in class with me, each and every week, just to keep up with my questions (the instructor, could not or did not know how to answer my questions) and we had some really good discussions, let me tell you. And as you can see I am no longer a Mormon (incidentally, I joined to support my daughter with an open mind and a trusting heart). And you are right when you say it does not imply that you will have your own world to control, however it does imply that you will become equal with God. I have to beg to differ with you with regards to idolizing Joseph Smith, when I was in church you rarely heard a devotional lines towards Jesus (except to say, “in Christ’s name” at the end of a testimonial) but each and every one would say “ I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the church is the only true church etc etc” And you (Mormons) claim not to have or use items, statues, crosses etc, however through out the entire church (in all the rooms) there are at least one picture of Joseph Smith, but none of Christ…?? That would indicate to me, and anyone who investigates your church that Joseph is idolized. I wanted to mention also that it is said, first by Brigham Young that God was/is Adam in human form and that he (God/Adam) literally came down to earth, as a human/flesh & bones, and basically had sex with Mary to create Christ (“as any man is created”), as far as I know all, (we) Christians believe that Christ was born without the original sin and was in fact a immaculate birth (as Mary was a virgin and never laid with a man (her Joseph) until after his birth.

  • JR

    Seth R
    In the Book of Abraham, the creation story refers to “the Gods” instead of “God”
    Firstly, most knowledgeable Mormons have come to accept that Joe’s translation of anything Egyptian, be it “reformed Egyptian” which no living being has ever verifibly seen, of legitimate hieroglyphics, was completely erroneous. there are way too many LDS documents to even bother quoting.
    My point is that his (Joe’s) credibility is non-existent.
    Examples:
    Two arrests for fraud.
    Kirtland Safety Society.
    Lying about his polygamy.
    His various versions of the first vision.
    Impossible BoM demographics
    ..and the list goes on and on.
    Why would any sane person listen to anything that came out of him?
    I liked the Lord of the Rings story, but I would never dignify it as sacred or the basis for a religion, no matter how good it was.
    I have also read way too many LDS apologist try and explain away all the errors and discrepancies attributed to God (the BoM being the most perfect book ever written), which in turn kills their credibility. They sound like lawyers searching for a “shadow of truth” instead of the usual shadow of doubt.
    Not to be rude, as you have not been, but ALL imperial evidence indicates that the whole thing is a sham (beyond the healthy morality of the LDS).

  • BBK

    Mormons actually practised Polandry (having more then one husband) once upon a time too. Which isnt really that weird actually cause some religions have had polandry practises in it and all have had polgamy in it, well with the exeption of maybe some newer ones.

    Someone the things they do are pretty weird I’d say (underwear lol) but thats only cause i didnt grow up with it. Then again ALL religions have their weird customs :).

    Nice list!. Glad to see someone writing a list like this without it poking fun at the religion, i hate those ick

  • JD

    Whats with the Confession booth about forgiveness. We are not Catholic we only confess our sins to God. And get help from the bishop if we need it to overcome a sin.

  • JR

    Which God do you confess to? Are there long distance charges to Kolob?

  • JD

    We pray for repentance artard

  • JR

    First day with the new keyboard JD?

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  • Jessica Titus

    Hello,
    I am a practicing LDS memeber, and I would like to clarify/make small corrections. Your main points seem to be in order but I would like to finess a few points, if that’s okay :-) I’m not super high up in the church or anything, but you can rely on what I have to say, and if you’re interested in learning more about my church you can go to lds.org

    TITHING:
    The first thing I would like to add to is that tithings is 10% of all of your earnings. It is a commandment to pay your tithing. However the way it’s stated makes it seems as if the church will hunt you down and badger you until you pay it. This is not true. I have a testimony in tithing. I have always beens a faithful tithe payer, and I have seen many blessings in my life because of it.

    SPIRITS:
    It doesn’t exactly work the way you explained it. In case you hadn’t noticed no one on this earth is perfect. We believe that once a person dies they go to either spirit world or spirit prison. Now we believe that you stay there until everyone is ressurected, that happens after the millenium (When Jesus is on the earth for a thousand years and there is a lot of church work done). I’m pretty sure everone will probably have to spend some time in sirit prison. We believe that you can still repent for the sins you had on earth, but you also have to work to break all of your bad habits. When you’ve finished that you can go to the spirit world.

    THE NATURE OF GOD:
    We believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the Godhead. This is very difficult for me to explain but basically they are one, I believe it means in sense of purpose, and they are also separate.

    PRIESTHOOD:
    It’s not that woman aren’t ‘worthy’ of holding the priesthood, that’s not what we believe. I, as a woman can be blessed by the priesthood, by asking a worthy male member for a blessing. This doesn’t mean something like I get to borrow his power. It’s just a blessing for help, or whatever I need. Once when I was very sick I asked my father for a blessing and he gave me one. It didn’t mean that I was automatically better, but I immediatly felt some of the pain eased.

    HEAVENS:
    The examples you gave of God’s law, Moses’ law and cardinal law, is something I have never heard of. It’s simply worthiness of the person. It’s not as if you will be unhappy in the place you are put, you will be with people you are comfortable with. Have you ever been with a group of people you think are spiritually/morally/otherwise better than you, it was uncomfortable, was it not. It’s the same concept, you go where you will fill most comfortable.

    FORGIVINESS:
    We don’t believe that our sins are taken away just by confessing them and asking another human for forgiviness. (I do not mean this to sound mocking to those who believe this, it’s just what I and others believe) We must first recognize our sins, feel sincere remorse, if the sin was big enough you need to talk to your bishop to get help, continue feeling regret for your decision and most importantly you must not do the sin again. After your sins are forgivin God does not ‘remember’ them. Difficult to explain because of course he knows your sin but you are forgiven from it. If you do the same sin again God will remember your original sin, and you must repent for them both.

  • ethan

    Mormons do believe Christ was divine. Also, Don’t confuse the LDS doctrines of salvation vs. exaltation.

    Actually, Mormons believe all mankind is SAVED by the GRACE of God, even Hitler will end up in a degree of glory (for Mormons hell is a lesser glory relative to the higher state where God dwells and family units are eternal). Conversely, Evangelicals believe a person must perform the WORK of physically “accepting Jesus” vocally to be saved. For them, not all will be “saved.”

    Therefore, mormons believe in being saved by grace and Evangelicals believe in salvation by works (act of being born again).

  • Anubisamon

    I have just read some of the above and mainly I am responding to the original list at top. I simply want to say that I think LDS get their beliefs from bible (old & new) scriptures as well but the list only contained BoM references. Just wondering why?

  • ethan

    Also, I often hear people say Mormons aren’t Christians. The question is whether Christians are Mormon. Truly, there are many doctrines presented by Joseph Smith that have now become adopted by every wing of modern Christianity. These are teachings that Smith was ridiculed for and were not known then. Now they are common among Evangelicals. For a list see:

    http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/general/madsen_christians_mormon.htm

  • Amber Tocheniuk

    Are any of these things written or scriptured in the bible, or is it all made up by one man’s thought..

  • mech126

    why does man have to believe in a higher being, is it because we feel so small that we have to have something to blame when it all hits the fan or is it so that we have to have someone to help us in our hour of need when their is no one to talk to. how can good people believe in a talking snake and noah when it has been proven that noah was not real or any of it for that matter

  • ninagirl

    k whoever wrote this is an idiot, and doesnt know a damn thing. its kind of sad he or she puts complete bullshit up on the internet. get the real facts dumbass before you stick this crap on the internet k.

  • angelwings8

    I cannot begin to fathom how this cult can have the audacity to bear the title ‘christian’.They have taken everything in the bible out of context.I dont mean to judge coz its not my place,I accept the various denominations of christianity because different ppl have various ways to express their faith,but when u take snippets of scripture and pervert it to serve ur own selfish and drama queen fetish desires…u end up playing with fire.Read the word of God as a whole,giving attention to each book according to its purpose,then draw interpretation.Btw God is not just the God of the Americas,why shud He appear only to some American dude(j.s) and an entire doctrine springs up from it…Gees!

  • Mark

    @angelwings8 (401): Take note of the word will you, “Christian.” They follow Christ, it’s what sets Islam, Judaism and Christianity apart. They all believe in an omnipotent being, but different messiahs. So I think that the title of “Christian” is acceptable for Mormons seeing as no-one really knows what Christ did, so how can anyone say that Joey is wrong?

    N.B – I’m not Mormon, I’m not even Christian. As a matter of fact I don’t even believe in “God,” so I’m not preaching. I’m just throwing my opinion out there.

  • Anubisamon

    I agree Mark, christian means believers in Christ and Mormons defiantly are that. I think angelwings8 must have skipped all the teachings on “love thy neighbor” and “not judging others”, which is sad.

  • Chaston

    I believe in the LDS faith 100 percent and puting my own perspective into an outsiders view this list does look somewhat bizarre in some aspects. as “bizarre” as it may seem I believe in all of it completely. Jessica Titus very good job in clarifying some of those mistakes but i would like to expound upon the Heavens… rather than just going “where you feel most comfortable” we are judged upon are thoughts, words, and deeds. here’s a link to our site on that subject http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=d1ef9daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

  • Chaston

    something interesting to think about… I have been LDS my whole life and have followed the teachings and examples obviously not perfectly but I have done my best and have done well, I used to joke saying to my dad “if I wasn’t mormon I would be the worst kid ever. I’d do every drug, I’d have sex all the time, I’d be a klepto, etc. because I would have no reason to be good” my dad disagreed all the teachings and the things we follow are designed for our happiness “Adam fell that men might be, men are that they might have joy” i believe that is in Alma. anyways my dad reassured me saying “well some of the very best people I know are aethists and agnostics, and they have great integrity. what is their motive?” it was a comforting thought to know my integrity doesn’t come only from my religion/faith. I believe people that don’t believe in god or don’t know what to believe have found out what things in life will make them happy and some of the values they hold are the same as mine because they know what will make them happy in the long run whether or not they believe in god or not.

  • sariah

    excuse me, but im mormon to let you know that! ALL THIS IS FAKE! THIS IS ALL A LIE. BEFORE YOU GO AND SAY ALL THIS STUFF YOU NEED TO GET YOUR STORIES STRAIGHT! UNLESSS YOU HAVE BEEN TO A LDS CHURCH AND THEY HAVE SAID ALL THIS BULL CRAP THen i wouldn’t not be saying this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • sariah

    “ninagirl” is COMPLETLY right!!! GO GIRL!! who ever wrote this LIED!

  • Anubisamon

    And ninagirl has a potty mouth and that has to count for something right? I love foul mouth ladies.

  • The truth

    Let’s face it all religion is made by men and is a bunch of crap. Holy underwear, no hot drinks in the body, prophets. . . To think that intelligent people believe this stuff is mind-numbing. It all comes back to: WE ARE SCARED TO DIE and if we believe hard enough, there will be no death. Wake up and smell the coffee. We get one life, live it to the fullest!

  • Lady Di

    I have a mormon at work who is trying to makee me believe black people are cursed Give me a break

  • julieanderson

    hi im LDS and what i read on the list is true the one thing that i wonder about is if it says drink no hot drinks why are we still aloud to drink hot chocolate just wondered

  • hi

    honestly i think other religions beliefs are strange. i am a mormon. people are just afraid of what they dont no. i have heard of so many miricles with modern normal people because of things like tithing. and it all will make more sense if you read the book of mormon or ask a missionary to come teach you. really if you learn it you like the way of living. missionarys can baptise you to be a mormon. and about tithing, god has given us an earth to live on and familys and blessings. the least we can do is give ten precent on what we earn bak to him. that mony goes to our temples church buildings and missionarys. so really if you think mormons are weird you need to investigate the church. becuase i garuntee your afraid of what you dont no.

  • Giggity

    I am a “Non-Member”
    Although, I grew up in a predominant Mormon community, and I know how it feels to be a “Religious Minority” in Utah.
    Both my family and I were treated with such disrespect, and bias towards any religion that was not LDS that I have grown a deep hatred for these people. I have moved past all of that, talked with their Missionaries, and all they wanted to do was baptize me. Tough questions couldn’t be answered by them, only responded by “we will get back to you”.
    My advice, seek any other religion that does not force their beliefs on others, and treats EVERYONE with the respect they deserve as HUMAN BEINGS!

    Most Mormons will not show you respect, even if you’ve converted into their cult. (They prefer their own to be “Blood born” Mormon)

  • Ockham’s Razor

    ‘Under the Banner of Heaven’ exposes the mormons for what they really are. Brainwashed loonies! Read the book with pleasure. Ockham’s Razor

  • Anubisamon

    Giggity you are way off base with those comments, off the reservation, in la la land.

  • Jeremy

    “Mormon” is a nickname; the real name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS for short.) Since the Church is Christ’s church, the same church that Jesus Christ organized when He lived on the earth with apostles and all, the Church is perfect. The doctrines of the Church are perfect. The members of the Church are not. “Mormons,” along with the rest of the human population, are not perfect. Some are overzealous, some do not live the teachings of Christ at all. “Weird” stories of people taking the doctrines of Jesus Christ and misconstruing them into “weird” things will always be found in every religion. These will be the stories you hear because we as humans share the rare/weird/exciting stories we know. I injured myself cliff jumping once and at the hospital and for weeks afterward I heard all kinds of stories about people almost dying or actually dying while cliff jumping. One would think that all who ever took up the endeavor of cliff jumping received some sort of life-threatening injury, that it is a ridiculous activity, and that anyone who took part in such an activity was just not thinking clearly when in actuality people go all the time and return unscathed. I had been dozens of time that summer even with no problems and have been since then.

    My point is, yes, there are weird stories about Mormons that are absolutely true and there are “skeletons” that you may be able to dig up about things that even prominent members of the Church have done. However, these are the exceptions and they are “Mormons” who have done things, not the Church itself doing things. If you come across multiple members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doing something that you believe is strange such as paying tithing or not drinking coffee, then perhaps it is a doctrine or a teaching of the Church. I encourage you to either approach the person–generally, members of the LDS church are very open to talking about religion and the Church–or go to the source-the Church itself:

    http://www.lds.org –this site has everything and you can even search things such as “coffee,” “priesthood,” “life after death” or anything else and find teachings of modern-day prophets and apostles on each subject.

    http://www.mormon.org

    As in all things, the source is the best place to find information on any given subject rather than reading or hearing secondhand information that has passed through multiple filters.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ’s church on the earth. It was restored by God and Jesus Christ through the prophet Joseph Smith. Jesus Christ directed Joseph to the place the Book of Mormon (written on gold plates) was hidden, and then through the gift and power of God, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon into English. Through Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ revealed, restored, and corrected the doctrines that were lost, changed, or corrupted during the centuries after the death of the original apostles. Jesus Christ called new apostles and a prophet to lead His church today. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is indeed Christ’s church, not Joseph Smith’s, not Moses’, not Mormon’s. Jesus Christ is at the head, we worship God the Father and Jesus Christ and no one and nothing else.

    Christ teaches us to come and follow Him, to be perfected in Him. All Christians should be striving toward this goal to become more like Christ and members of the LDS church are no different. I make my fair share of mistakes and would hate for someone to judge the entire LDS church from of some of the things that I have done in my life. Perfection does not come instantly and we all make mistakes along the path to perfection. The wonderful thing is, because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can all repent and become clean and continue along the path that leads to eternal life with our families and our Heavenly Father. I am grateful for this plan and for this knowledge that brings me peace in this tumult of words and world of changing values.

    Jeremy

  • BTabb

    I began reading this article out of curiousity… I’m at work bored to def… But it really baffles me that so many people have such a strong opinion one way or another about what other individuals believe. I was raised in a Baptist Church and my beliefs will remain the same until I die or decide to believe otherwise… These comments are so very entertaining and even more so than the beliefs of Mormon’s, These people are strange. We live in the land of the free and the home of the brave!! U can worship this pen sitting at my desk if you would like… I would pay it no nevermind… But no need to downplay anyone’s religion. Take what you believe or what you don’t believe and focus on that. And while some of you on here have your creative juices flowing how about we not focus on heaven or hell… (We all have to go to one or the other one day) How about focusing on peace on earth. Non Mormon’s instead of bashing them… Encourage them… Mormon’s instead of being offensive… embrace them with the Godly love that your doctrine teaches you… Is that not what Christianity is all about??? Hmmm…. Just sayn’!!

  • Rended

    First off I have to agree with BTabb. We all want a better world to live in (well at least I do). Support things that make the world a better place. MLK fought for the rights of his his children and race to be looked at by their character and not the color of their skins. Do the same for people of all religions as well. Of course you don’t have to agree with them, but you don’t have to hate them either.

  • JDD

    “They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe.”

    Sorry, this is not Mormon doctrine.

  • gentle

    Two very big reasons why we cannot just leave off criticizing religion:
    1:As long as politicians base their decisions for us the people on their beliefs, we have to care what those beliefs are and how it will influence their decisions.
    2:No monotheistic religion has ever been content with living and let living. In order to justify the righteousness of their beliefs they have to declare how wrong every other belief is, including, many times, science, which is not a belief at all but based on verifiable FACTS(one thing that religion can never claim). Religion has been the number one justification for murder and genocide in the whole history of man (ie. holy wars, crusades, inquisition, etc. etc. etc.) and they are still doing this and most likely will continue “killing in the name of”.

    So we’re all in the same boat here, is what Im saying, and as long as the’re are some lunatics in the boat with us shaking it like mad, in order to save us, it is everyones business what people believe.

    G

  • Rended

    Gentle: It is important in politics to know what a persons beliefs are. But I ask you why. The catholic church is against abortion, but you have many catholics in congress that are pro abortion. That isn’t consistant with their faith. Do you judge them by their religion or their actions?

    I find it so interesting that people always hold verifiable facts against religion. Is love veriiable? I don’t know how many books and movies have been centered on this unvarifiable emotion. I has been the reason for wars, hatred, murder, etc. etc. It is something that someone feels, but cannot hold or really prove (other than through actions).

    I fear the greatest threat to mankind is ignorance. There are those that look at only science and feel that it has all of the answers. There are those that teach the theory of evolution as a fact, when in reality there are some parts that cannot be explained and there is a reason to why it is called the “theory of evolution”. There are those that believe everything that their religious leaders tell them. Some people believe mormons have horns. Don’t be so ignorant that you can’t learn.

    Now I believe there are some religious lunatics out there. I go back to what MLK believed. Look at their character.

  • Uini

    Umm…I didn’t see this one on the list…this should replace the Pergatory thing…the “spirit world” thing, or better yet, right after the priesthood being limited to white males until 1978, — the LDS belief that DARK SKIN IS A CURSE — Look it up in the Doctorine & Covenants, and stories of the Lamanite people being cursed with dark skin in the Book of Mormon — Bill Maher mentions it in “Religulous”. Black people are descendants of Cain and other people of Color are descendants of the Lamanites, so basically, the MAJOR SINNERS in the scriptures were marked with dark skin because of their transgressions, thus their descendants would be marked as well. As a person that was raised as a Mormon and as a person of color, when I discovered that bit doctrine, — when i started PAYING ATTENTION, that’s when I chose to distance myself.

  • gentle

    Rended, what “wars, hatred, murder” ever has been based on love?

    Science doesn’t have all the answers and the difference between it and fundamentalism is that it never claims to.

    Also love is a human emotion, it is in essense an effect and doesn’t need to be scientifically measured, nor could it be. But it does exist, relatively, as an effect of human emotion. Religion doesn’t even compare, whether you see it as given to humans by a creator or as a human myth. What is at question is not whether the CONCEPT of love or god exists(and i repeat, as a concept), but whether god exists LIKE love as a human concept or if HE is in fact a being separate from our ideas about him. He can’t be verified as as the latter, only as the former.

    And maybe the catholics in congress who are pro-abortion are putting their reason and responsibility above their personal religious views, which is as it should be. They are supposed to be ,after all, representatives of the people, not of their church.

    And you want to talk about Ignorance? Ignorance is what uini stated above, about how the scriptures declare dark skin a curse. That is pure religious fantasy and one that is very useful in separating people. Yet science has proven that we are all basically the same on a genetic level and that race is really a very superficial thing, in fact.

    Religion is so ignorant that it’s not even wrong.
    G

  • Rended

    As I read the most current responses I have thought a lot about what was said and the strong emotions tied to each response. Yesterday I was sitting down with my daughter who was trying to do her math homework. I was trying to show her some tricks that, in my mind, would greatly increase the process and make it much easier. She just got frustrated with me because either I wasn’t explaining it well, she was past the point of listening, or that she didn’t understand one of the principles that was fundemental in understanding how to do the trick.

    Faith is a powerful principle. If someone has faith their values should not conflict their beliefs. Doing what is popular should not trump ones values and beliefs. To gain faith one must first desire to gain faith. It is very rare that someone acquire faith if they don’t first desire to have it. Just like in science there is a process and things that can influence the effectiveness of the test. The out come is another misunderstood part. How will you receive an answer? For each person it will be different, but their is a good reference in Galatians 5:22-23 to what you should look for. Faith requires action. You must do something or what ever small portion of faith that you have can quickly deminish. It may mean you have to change something about your life or do something you haven’t previously been doing.

    Many feel that science and religion are two opposites, but I feel that they are very similar. Both are the quest for truth. Both try to help us understand the world around us. But science and religion can both become bias or can teach false doctrine. Emotion can be a big factor in both.

    I am ignorant. I will be the first to admit it. I understand that I don’t know every thing, or even a small fraction of the knowledge that is out there. But I love to learn and can learn. I try to find truth where ever I can. I learn by study and faith.

    In my calculus class the majority of people that stuggled did so because their college algebra was weak. The foundation for religion is faith. If you don’t understand faith you won’t understand most of that list above.

    I am not going to respond again. Remember there are two kinds of people in this world. Those that are builders and those that are destroyers. Many may not care and only think they are doing to world a favor by being a destroyer. “From such turn away.”

  • C.C.

    THIS RELIGION IS CORRUPT WHO WOULD BELIEVE IN THIS. HERE WE CALL MORMONS “BOREGA” YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? IT MEANS SHEEP BECAUSE WHO WOULD JUST DROP EVERYTHING TO FOLLOW THE WORD OF A IGNORENT FALSIFIED PROPHET. JESUS DIED FOR US AND ALL THIS MAN (JOESPH SMITH) CAN DO IS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HIS SACRIFICE. IT MAKES ME ILL TO MY STOMACH. JESUS PREFORMED MIRICILES THAT HELP BLIND STARVING, HURT PEOPLE. JOSEPH SMITH CAME OUT OF THE WOODS AFTER EATING MUSHROOMS AND THE ANCESTORS OF THE CHURCH JESUS CHRIST OR LATTER DAY SAINTS FOLLOWED HIM LIKE A BUNCH OF SHE BLINDED BY THERE STUPIDITY. THIS SO CALLED RELIGION IN MY OPPION IS A CULT!

  • Star Chaser

    Geez, C.C., turn your caps lock off. The Mormons believe all this, but if you don’t, fine. No need to go on an entire rant bashing an entire religion. I myself am not mormon, but even so, others could be offended. Go ahead, express your opinion, but you don’t have to be so harsh.
    And I apologize if something bad happened to you to cause this.

  • gentle

    What is really required to have faith is fear, that’s all.

    Science and religion aren’t even comparable. If youd like to compare them then you can say that they are opposites in the sense that faith requires you to follow blindly, while science requires that you prove rigorously anything claimed to be a fact, and that the method can be repeated by others with the same results. Other than that, religion just rides on sciences coattails.

    Religion is a destroyer pretending to be a builder. If it builds at all, its foundation is lies and therefore endangers all that is built upon it.

    There is a sacred aspect to human life, dont get me totally wrong here, but humans cant prescribe it to other humans without making dangerous dogma.
    G

  • I Gjati

    I found it very interesting that all the “Bizarre Doctrine” was quoted from the Doctrine and Covenants. Why waste your time going through the Doctrine and Covenants when you can backup all these “Bizarre Mormon Beliefs” from your very own bible?

  • igbarv56

    Well put, gentle (post 427). I agree completely.

  • Alex

    Just about EVRYTHING in this article is wrong, misleading, falsly interpretated and guesswork. The B.o.M. Quotes are just plain wrong in about 80% of the cases. Who does your research?

  • PK

    Actually, Mormons are nor coerced into paying tithing. It is practiced by those who have enough faith to do so, therefore, it is a measure a of persons faith.

    I know another religion that forced the members to sell all they had and give it to the church leaders to distribute to others. One couple died for not doing so. The account is in the book of Acts 4:34 through Acts 5:11. The leaders were the Apostles.

    What a communal cult!

  • abbie

    I am warning everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If you add anything to them, God will add to you the plagues told about in this book. 19 If you take any words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from you your share in the tree of life. He will also take away your place in the Holy City. This book tells about these things.

    20 He who gives witness to these things says, “Yes. I am coming soon.”

    Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

    21 May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

  • Struth

    @abbie (432):
    And there I was thinking that God forgave all.

  • Maggot

    @PK (431): Mormons are nor coerced into paying tithing. It is practiced by those who have enough faith to do so, therefore, it is a measure a of persons faith.

    Doesn’t that sound like a subtle form of coercion?

  • Rory

    I think that if you want to talk bad about the church of JESUS CHIRST of latter day saints then you get your facts straight talk to on read the book of Mormon talk to missionarys because I care p.s the church I was talking about is the Mormons that is the real name of the church just incase you didn’t know :)

  • clara

    mystern i want to ask you a couple of questions. you nedd not answer to me but i hope you will be sincere when answering to yourself. before writing the 10 bizzare mormons beliefs, did you have faith in heavenly father, did you take at least a couple of days to stay away from any unpleasant activity in the sight of god,did you put away two meals in a day to fast and pray to god, and if you did pray, did you ask for the spirit of revealation,did you ask heavenly father for wisdom and understanding whiles you were researching, did you ask for the anointing of the holy ghost, did you ask heavenly father for the truth, did you cry unto him for the truth, did you go to our heavenly father with open mindedness or did you go with an unchangeable mind and the most important, how many times did you do all these things continually. because if you did you wont even utter any of these words. lets be very careful when we speak about these things. they are all spiritual and beyond the understanding of human beings.there are certain things that we cannot know just by our understanding , we need to go down on our knees and ask for a revelation. so if you think mormons are bizare , please dont pick up the books or go to the websites and find out the truth. the right person is up there waiting for you to answer all these questions on this page.the human mind is nothing compared to that of our heavenly father’s so if you really want to know anything please dont ask on this page , ask when you go on your knees and pray to God. thank you

  • Don

    The King James translation of the Greek and Hebrew texts use the Shakespearian style because it was the popular style of the early 1600’s England.

    Fast forward 200 years and a different continent and somehow Joseph Smith uses the same style. Amazing. Combine that with the total lack of any archeological evidence of any stones or golden tablets the whole Mormon Bible is some guy in the early 1800’s with a Sunday School education just makin’ it up as he goes. The Emperor has no clothes.

  • Don

    Oh, and one more thing – Annanias and Saphira were struck dead NOT for not tithing or not selling everything as some above have asserted – it was for lying. Check it out: Acts 4:34 and following.

    The crazy history of the LDS cannot be laid at Joseph’s Smith’s feet. He was just a nut job and con man. There’s one on every corner. What’s amazing is that so many people have been fooled over the years. God gave us a brain to use. Mormons apparently ask that you check it at the door and “just believe.” The whole LDS is a house of cards, which makes all this endless discussion (ad infinitum/ad nauseum) about what they believe or don’t believe …
    MOOT.

  • Beaver trail

    I have no intention of becoming a Mormon, but can I sign up for just the “Polygamist” portion? And is there a way I can practice it without actually getting married?

  • Maggot

    @Beaver trail (439): I have no intention of becoming a Mormon, but can I sign up for just the “Polygamist” portion? And is there a way I can practice it without actually getting married?

    Yeah, use both hands instead of just one.

  • Beaver trail

    That works for you?

  • Maggot

    @Beaver trail (441): You’re the one that said you needed practice.

  • Beaver trail

    Yes…I was just asking if that works for you.

  • Maggot

    @Beaver trail (443): I’m in the game, man. I don’t need practice.

  • dragonelle

    what is the D&C ? because i read the KJV and at the moment i’m looking in the book of mormon for the D&C and i don’t see it in the book. is the D&C a book ? is it a book written by joseph smith? sorry translated.
    what is LDS doctrine and theology ?

  • rainman

    mormons dont believe in polygamy that was in the olden days

  • Linstorm

    If you sign up for just polygamy you are in no way shape or form part of the lds religion….it is a whole different ball game.
    you have to know what you’re talking about before you say stuff.
    i agree with clara you cant bash on something when all you know is a little sliver…and possibly not even the truth.

    Ask God before you ask and human being.
    Pray for it and keep an open mind.

    The reason the LDS church has an answer for everything is because it is the truth.
    and it will only seem bizzare to you if thats how you take it..but if you ponder the scripture and doctrine and ask God Our Heavenly father….you will be surprised at how much truth you get from it….no bizzare stuff included.

    i agree with taking religion WAY past serious.
    taking it serious is important.
    but some people are just too bombarding.

    My family isnt LDS but i am.

    and it is such a blessing in my life to know that there is a god in heaven that i can go to in any time of need.

    i love myself i love all of you and i more than anything love my father in heaven. [:

    i promise you that if you pray and read the scriptures seriously and earnestly you will learn the truth.
    i will keep you all in my prayers.

    Everyone have a good day.

  • Gentle

    “The reason the LDS church has an answer for everything is because it is the truth.
    and it will only seem bizzare to you if thats how you take it”
    OK? Really? Because that seems like a ridiculous statement to me. No, that’s just ludicrous. A statement that cannot be varified cannot be true just because you say it is, no matter how strong of an authority says it. I mean it can, but that doesn’t make it right or true. Also, something that is bizarre is basically out of the norm and uncommon, which the LDS religion is in general, except maybe in places like Utah where it is prevalent. In those place, “normal” people might seem bizarre. Context is everything.

    Everyone has voices in their head, some people just choose to interpret them as God. People who believe in god do so out of fear. They are afraid to die, which is only natural, but they accept a mythology that is insulting to their own intellect. They look at this life and see shit and want to know that their gonna get their little prize at the end of it all. That theyre not just gonna disappear into the void.

    So have fun with all that, if its what you need, but Im fine with just living life. I dont need a cosmic babysitter, I can be nice and kind on my own thank you very much!
    Gentle

  • tim

    Obviously none of your readers are Christians or that my know that they can find these rules in the Old and New testament. Most of these are basic christian beliefs.

  • bob

    You make it sound like religion is something set up to control people. It is not about that at all. It is simply that God created all people and He has given us the guidelines to follow to ensure our happiness. If you want to take it as control then you need to look at it a different way. The way good morals and Christian beleifs direct people to live is to try to guide people to a happier life. Not only here but after we die.

  • gzuslivz

    I’d like an answer to the question about the mormon doctrine
    from the very founder of the faith(Joseph Smith) which states that the line of leadership,i.e. Prophet of the LDS Church, the “mantle” etc..was to pass on through Joseph Smiths Sons,i.e. his blood line and this was a direct revelation from their God to Joseph Smith..The RLDS Church is the only body that kept this commandment..Brigham Young took some 300 followers with him after Smith had been killed
    & formed the Mormon Church..Emma Smith (Joseph Smith;s ) wife & a few others were totally against B.Y. taking over the leadership of the then small group of followers..which she & Smith said that the Smiths Son was to lead the Church..B.Y. & the LDS Church is Blatently False…not the Church that Joseph Smith Started…

  • D-man

    If LDS works for you, run with it.

  • dsfjsj

    believe what you want to believe.
    dont make fun of other people’s religion.
    its dumb and makes you look like the unreligious one.

  • chelseakay

    uhm guys, if we’re all Christians here. i do believe that we are not supposed to be judging others for their beliefs. maybe i’m mistake, but i do believe that this is the christian way. just sayin.

  • Gentle

    I’m not a Christian so I can judge people for their beliefs if I choose to. However, I try to be non-judgemental not because some mythical god wants me to be and will punish me if i don’t do his will, but simply because I am a decent person with morals. I nor any of you needs a religion to be a good and decent person.
    Think about it.
    Gentle

  • D-man

    I wonder if some people require the threat of a vengeful god in order to behave civilized. Maybe religion is a good thing after all. That’s all we need is a bunch of people going postal because they realized they have no one to answer to.

  • bdizzle

    I would just like to remind people, there are TWO kinds of mormons, the ones who openly practice polygamy, like on Big Love and live on compounds, and dress differently, and have a zillion kids. Then are the mormons who live in mainstream society don’t practice polygamy and live really rather, average, boring lives. Someone made a comment about mormons having multiple wives, the true LDS relgion, do NOT believe in adultery, that is actually, grounds for auto-matic excommunication, and it takes A LOT of hard work and A LOT of time to be welcomed back into the church after adultery is committed. Mormon beliefs aren’t as “out there” as some people think they are, mormons do use the bible and it is a very important part to the mormon relgion, being mormon myself, I should know. I went to a catholic jr high, and during religion classes, I was one of the only kids in the class who knew the basic stories of the bible, I’ve been taught them ever since I was a little kid. Now, being a mormon myself, I also see where a lot of people would believe that we’re a strange bunch, might have something to do with what we call the “cookie cutter” or “molly mormons” these are the ones with 5 foot hair, bright pink lips, husbands who are doctors or dentists, at least 5 kids, stay at home moms, pregnant with 6th, barefoot, canning peaches in the kitchen……….there’s a lot of those. I personally want to have a career AND children, and my husband supports that completely. Growing up, I had friends who asked me why I wasn’t allowed to eat oranges (what the heck??) and I dated boys before I was 16, and I kissed boys before I was married, and I went to dances before I was married, my husband didn’t go ona mission (its not required like most people think, it’s a choice, for men and women) heck I went to a catholic jr high because I would have gone crazy if I had to go to school with all the mormons I knew. Mormons are in no way perfect, although a lot would like to think they are, and I think a lot of mormons can be judgemental cuz they dont wanna take a step back and realize that they aren’t perfect, they would rather surround themselves with people like them, usually ignorant. As for the whole no caffiene thing……..its a guideline, not something we will be boiled in oil and have our toes stomped off for. Many of the leaders of the church will crack open a pepsi or a coke, some everyday. I personally don’t like the taste of coke or pepsi, so I stick to other pop. We also aren’t supposed to have more than one peircing(for girls, guys arent supposed tohave any) or tattoos, I have 8 peircings and a tattoo and my husband has a tattoo, now although some people didn’t approve, its once again just a guideline, not something that is written in stone. Mormons also believe that we are here on earth to be tested, so whats the point of being here, if you dont make mistakes and live? Some mormons are strange, strange, strange, I’ll be the FIRST to admit it, and there are somethings that are weird in the religion, and mormons are urged to find out for themselves if its true or not, and to not ride on what their parents say, personally myself, there are a few things that I struggle with believeing and understanding, but it doesnt mean I’m going to hell. Im just going to live my life and do the things that make me happy :D :D but as for someone else who said that its crazy for the mormons to believe that some men will have multiple wives in heaven….what about other religions who believe that they’ll have hundreds of virgins waiting for them in heaven….?? im not judging other religions, but im just pointing out that every religion will have things that will make you raise your eyebrows and go “what?” (sort of like chris on family guy, yes i LOVE the show) it was hard for me to understand that some religions believe that the “trinity” is one being, but in the bible when jesus is baptised god speaks from heaven and sends the dove (the holy spirit) those are THREE seperate occurances…..yes god can be everywhere and anywhere all at once, but…..these are three sperate entities…..you know, so im just saying, all religions are different, and I guess when we all die, we’ll find out what the truth is, maybe we’ll be stuck in limbo, maybe we’ll be in purgatory, maybe we’ll just rot in the ground, maybe we wont be part of those 400K maybe just maybe there will be three kingdoms of such beauty beyond anything we could ever imagine and live with our families for eternity in turn making our own worlds and univereses…..who knows?? Just some food for thought. :D

  • Kristen

    okay, you people don’t know what you are talking about. Mormons DO believe in Jesus Christ and that he is our savior and redeemer. You just don’t have any faith of your own and you just need to shut up. bdizzle knows what they are talking about, and you other people don’t know. so just butt out and focus on your own religion.

  • THBfan

    look mormans and nearly all religions have traditions that are stupid , josheph smith is a perfect example of how easy it is to turn any idea into a religion all you need is time. But the mormon religion teaches kindness so does the christian religion but the christians religion have priests and due to them the christians have lead more religious genocides then anything esle butt to gether so well done to the mormons your religion may not make sence but you are good people

  • TSmith

    I am a morman and way to go by not making it offensive
    but the number 1 thing im kinda vauge on
    i mean no one who believes in a religion can actually agree with every single little belief

    i mean im proud to be morman and yeah we do have a answer for every thing lol…at least our bishop does lol…but all in all…good list lol

  • Tardman81

    i’m not sure how true this list is but; every thing i checked out so far looks true. This list is great, this got me interested in the mormon religion{i’m not a mormon and i’m not gonna convert or any thing but,} this would explain alot about my mormon friends. by the way you tell them bdizzle

  • bdizzle

    thanks guys/girls, I just feel it’s more important to accept everyone for who they are, no matter what Religion they are, or aren’t, or if they even believe in God. I feel that as long as you do the very best you can and are a good person, and you treat other people with kindness, you’re not going to end up in hell. I do believe in the the power of forgiveness, by that same token though, I’m not going to say that some of these people on earth, and people who have been on earth, deserve to be in what (mormons believe) the highest degree of heaven, I can’t see God being instantly forgiving to someone who has molested young children, or raped people their whole lives, that again, is just MY opinion. Tardman81 (hehehe)I do appreciate your comment :D But I mean even though I was raised in the mormon church, there are still things that I wonder about it. I was always told that “gay” people couldn’t be LDS because we don’t believe in sex before marraige, and there was no gay marriage, now that SOOOO much has changed,and there are gay marriages, I’ve asked some people in church if the mormon religion will change their views on that. So I mean I’m sure there will always be things that I ask questions about and am always seeking the answers about, but I think that what we’re all on earth for, to ask questions and wonder. But also to be tolerant of other people and other religions. If everyone in the WHOLE wide world, was supposed to be one religion, whether that be mormon, muslim, hindu, baptist, reformed mormon, catholic, or even scientology, don’t you think that that would have just been the way it was, there wouldn’t be any other religions? The men and women who start these different religions, wouldn’t they have been like struck down with lightening or something? So I think we should all just go on living our lives, believing what we each believe in, and trying just a little bit harder to be tolerant and patient with everyone else. (although, SOMETIMES, it’s hard for me to be patient with my mormon in-laws and huge by marriage family hehehe) Oh and BTW Tardman81 (hehehehe) the things on the list are pretty accurate, some are worded a bit strange(the captions) but all in all yah, they are pretty accurate, although we do believe that you get a “second chance” so to speak (my own words here) once you get to heaven, cuz everyones eyes will be more open (im NOT saying here that everyones eyes will be open to the truth of the mormon church, just more open to whatever the truth is) so I don’t think it’s the end all-be all once you’re in spirit prison/paradise. Just my thoughts for the day…………

  • mush

    I am a mormon, and I’d like to say that I appreciate the respect and dignity with which these things have been treated.

  • MormonsSuck

    I can’t believe anyone buys into this crap. People are idiots.

  • nonmormanandproud

    wow mormans are missled and need a reality check from the ACTUAL GOD the ONE and ONLY

  • bdizzle

    just so you know…………….mormons only believe in ONE GOD the ACTUAL GOD and the ONLY GOD…………we don’t have multiple gods…………….

  • Anubisamon

    Poor poor GENTLE, someone not give you a cookie at church or something, to harbor that much hostility is incredible.
    Nonmormanandproud must just looking for a non intelligent debate, nice try. 464 is not even worth mentioning by name.

  • tryingnottogetexcomd

    I grew up Mormon, left when I was 16. On number 2, there is a third unforgivable sin – suicide. Also of mention, Jesus has many wives in heaven, Satan is our literal brother, god had literal sex with mary to create Jesus, masturbation is a sin, kobal, Joseph smith as a martyr, men and spiritual names, and the priesthood’s ability to heal.

    This was fun!

  • tryingnottogetexcomd

    Ooh ooh! And baptisms for the dead, temple rights, and unforgiving sins you repent for but repeat-

  • nauhtygirl

    some of these things you guys are talking about are not true. i am a mormon and i would know wat we do and do not do. you guys need to shut you’re mouths.

  • gentle

    “Shut your mouths” is that a mormon term?

  • tryingnottogetexcomd

    Lol my favorite is her name, naughtygirl. Is that chaste? Can you get a temple recommend while being a “naughty girl”? Anyhow, naughtygirl, I grew up Mormon. I was laurels president, my mom was rs president, my dad was elders quorum president and asked to be bishop, which he turned down. Mormons do practice the things I listed. You just don’t know enough about your own faith.

  • real deal

    i believe God is The only Father and He sent Jesus to be born to a virgin,and the rest is History..READ THE BIBLE..
    That is our History…Have Faith…

  • bdizzle

    #472 (tryingnotto….)long name lol. I was just wondering where you learnt/read that God had literal sex with Mary? I just don’t remember ever learning that in church(I’m Mormon as well) Please don’t think I’m saying you’re hands down wrong, I was just wondering where you’re getting that from??

  • dazed and confused??

    I have grown up in the church…my father is a preacher…and I have been to many other churches as I was growing up and travelling…I married a member of the LDS…this is the first time…since I have read the old and new testaments when I was growing up…that Jesus went to the Americas….

    how come there is no account of his visits in the New Testament??

    and why are all the Prophets from the US?? And how come black ppl were nt allowed to be given priesthood till the late 70s??

    I think someone was on drugs and really stoned when they were in the bushes talking to some rays of light coming through the trees…

  • Delness

    hello Gentle,

    I’ve noticed you have been mentioning science as a non-religious practice, and perhaps it’s not categorized as one by most individuals, but they are very much similar.

    It just depends on what you can believe in. Here’re some examples:

    Beliefs:

    that man is in existence because of (science or religious explanation)

    That trees, plants, rocks, animals, in all their
    infinitesimal complexities and organizations are organized as they are because of … (Science or religious explanation)

    Why men, in general, can feel the feeling of “guilt” when they do something “bad” weather they have a religious belief or not, instead of not having the feelings of guilt at all if they were to murder, plunder and steal or destroy others faiths, … (science or religious explanation) (if you do no longer have these feelings from desensitization/participating in the practices then I would worry about those you associate with, but I would suppose that not to be the case)

    To me, as I look at this, I feel like it would take a greater leap of “Faith” to believe in science to explain how all this organization, feeling of guilt and decision (with or without religion), and how man came to be, than the Religious faith.

    I am a Christian, I’m also a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (or Mormon), I chose these paths because of something that cannot be explained by science, and, I don’t think there would be any more strong members in any congregation if it could.

    But I respect your beliefs whether you recognize them as beliefs or not, and I hope others make their choice on what organization to believe in based on not just their intelligence, but heart and mind, and what they see and hear as evidences to guide them.

  • Delness

    Hello Dazed,

    Those are very good questions, although I’m not perfect, I believe I have the answer for you, that would also explain many things that are done in the church.

    Although it probably was unkind referencing our first prophet as someone who practiced drugs when he utterly refused it, I would like to answer your question.

    Those who are true followers of the LDS Faith believe in modern revelation, just as it was in the Old and New Testament.

    I didn’t fully understand the first question since there were visits in the New Testament, as he lived on earth and after he died.

    On the second question, my Dad was on his mission for the church when the change for those who are black being able to hold the Priesthood. There are some matters I don’t know about, and few do, perhaps the prophets, and those who earnestly pray to understand are given answers.

    Everything is done in the Lords timing, I cannot dictate when people die or live or when the Priesthood can be given to another tribe of Ephraim (if they were from another tribe), My parents cant dictate, nor my Bishop, nor the apostles, nor the Prophet, but only our Lord, and the testimony and conviction of millions upholds that belief, and I do too.

    Oh, about the prophets all being from the US. We believe Apostles as Prophets and Seers as well, Elder Uchtdorf is one of those apostles, if he becomes the senior Apostle I will follow him as the President of the Church.

  • Delness

    Hello Gentle,

    I forgot to mention too, I did not choose to follow the path of religion over science because of fear, if you believe nothing else, know that I have joined the church because of Love for my Heavenly Father (whom I also Obey and try to serve) and Man, and not because of fear.

    I hope I don’t sound upset as you read this, it’s not my feelings at all, as I hope yours wasn’t written in ill manner, but I also write this because like you, I seek truth, and because I love all Men, you, friends, family, everyone, and want them all to return to our Heavenly King, I like

    I don’t know if you’ve ever lost someone close to you in your lifetime, I have, once friends who chose not to ever be a friend to me anymore, I know how it feels, I believe our Father in Heaven feels the same way if we choose to not follow him. I hope you may choose not to leave Him.

    I’m not wise of myself. But by listening to one who is I can try to pattern myself after him who has all wisdom and knowledge.

    I would also like to ask you, in your viewpoint “Who (or maybe what in your case) is using all the physics, calculus, and science to organize all these elements you see in their order and operation? (why did the earth not be a little off coarse and fly into space or burn into the sun, or all the other millions of wonders in this world in all its complexity, structure and formation)”?

  • Delness

    Just a small correction of myself on message to Dazed, Adam was the first Prophet on this Earth, and Joseph Smith is the first Prophet since the Apostasy after the New Testament.

  • Anubisamon

    Well said Delness, and naughtygirl, which I agree is a strange name for your beliefs, all those things mentioned by tryingnottogetexcomd are indeed believed.

  • Silver

    Ok, so here’s the thing. I’m LDS. For a long time I was Catholic and I never felt that the catholic church was right for me, respectively. First of all, the literature in the book of mormon is not dumb, it just takes some time to study the true meaning of it (like you would do in a literature class) There are a lot of misconceptions that i have read here. There are reasons for everything that LDS people do. Early in the church the converts to the church were called England’s rif raf, but Charles Dickons has written testimony that when he went to take a closer look at these people he found that they were good strong people and not rif raf of England. Maybe some of you should check out this site on the misconceptions, it made me laugh i hope it does the same for you :)Oh and if you want to semi-learn about the church in a humorous way, check out Mobsters and Mormons and other comedies by the same director on mormonism.

  • A&W

    Ok, just a few things I want to comment on.

    Mystern: I disagree 100% about your comment about mormons believing in polygamy after death. Our prophet, apostles, and teachers all say they are unsure about what happens with people who remarry.

    I don’t remember who posted the comment, but it was one about people being raised in a mormon community and how we don’t know anything else other than what we were raised in. Yes, we were raised with it and it is what most of us believe in, but your statement is very closed minded. Didn’t you stop to think that perhaps you’re doing the same thing? You don’t know what its like to be a mormon, just as I don’t know what its like to be a non-mormon. You shouldn’t be so quick to judge us by saying we are a cult. We are a religion, who have our own “unique” beliefs, just like atholics, muslim baptists, etc.

    For the confusion with tithing: Yes. Tithing is one of our commandments and we are SUPPOSED to pay a full tithe. Not everyone does and we are not FORCED to pay. It is a choice of whether or not we feel that we should. And what is wrong with giving 10% of what we get every month to show our thanks to our God? He has given us everything, and wants only a small amount in return. He uses the tithing we give him to help those in need, build temples,
    churches, and do many other wonderful things.

    Hope my comment helps and hope I don’t come out as being bias, although I probably am a little bit because, after all, I am a mormon ;)

  • Delness

    A&W, About tithing, it is a great blessing I agree to pay tithing. Just in case someone is still wondering, we don’t have paid clergy or leaders, kinda makes paying tithing easy knowing its sole purpose is to build Zion, and not anyones personal bank account.

  • ckr

    could you please stop sending me emails, as it is filling my email up…i dont know why i am recieving these and i can’t find out why this is happening..thank you

  • Joseph W.

    Every religion looks strange to outsiders.

    The important thing is values, not theology, when it comes judging those you wish to associate with or represent you in the political realm.

    I know many Evangelicals have problems with Mormon theology. But Mormons and Evangelicals have identical values. Since most Mormons and Evangelicals would classify themselves as either conservative or Republican, then why would either side have a problem with a president who belonged to either religion? It’s values, not theology, that matters when picking a president.

    Every religion looks strange to outsiders.

  • daughterofaking

    I am Christian and I would like to say the Mormonism is NOT Christianity. Many of the Mormon beliefs completely contradict the teachings of Christianity. ALL sins are forgivable, that is the beauty of Christ. Mormonism teaches that they are the new church because the old one “fell away”. Well of course we all “fell away”. In the Bible it says that the only person to ever be perfect is Jesus. Nothing anyone can ever do can make them perfect or good enough in God’s eyes. So of course the Christian church has it’s faults. That is because everyone does. Even I do. The only values that Mormonism and Christianity share are the values of treating everyone well. Not even close to the deeper fundamental values that Christianity holds to.

  • thefairness

    honestly, i think this guy needs to do more research, a couple of things on the list are false. All sins are forgivable. it IS a chritian religion( Christian means follows god and his teaching). I know some people won’t agree with the Mormom religion or LDS but that doesnt mean you should hammer on it like this. all religion should be given at least a chance. And there’s little things about catholics and christians that people dont seem to mind, because it gives them convience. I problably sound like a douche but trust me guys, its a pretty cool religion. besides, who were the first people to act on hurricane katrina. :)

  • trogdar

    baptism for the dead. sounds like everyone thinks thats weird. really, no harm in it. if you were dead, floating around eternal darkness( our version of hell) wouldn’t wanna be helped out. and if its not true, at least they could say they tried.

  • Confused

    Why do people believe Joseph Smith’s story?

  • Chaston

    umm… really? I love it when people claim Mormons aren’t Christian. ok let me help you “fairness”

    Christian – relating to or characteristic of Christianity
    Christian – a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination

    Seeing that Mormons are both of these things, explain again why they’re not Christian?

  • Chaston

    Excuse my mistake, I meant to say “daughterofaking” not “fairness”

  • bdizzle

    I was once told that Mormons don’t give enough credit to Jesus………. the true name of our church is, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints….. lol

  • plankbird

    Am i the only one that thinks believing in talking snakes, virgin births, healing the dead, being god but not really, talking to god through a burning bush, being swallowed by a whale and living, walking on water, and turning water into wine are just as ridiculous as any of this crap? i mean come on you cant say the made up rules of LDS are ridiculous and not at least acknowledge that all religions have a bunch of crap stories in them.

  • calm_incense

    @ plankbird (493):

    Yes, you’re the only one in the history of mankind to have ever doubted Christianity. Congratulations on your revolutionary insight.

  • plankbird

    @calm_incense

    ya thats totaly what i meant. i mean god im so glad your here to help me understand that im not the ONLY one. whew dodged a bullet on that one. it couldnt be i was trying to state a fact or make a statement, bo that would just be RIDICULOUS.

    nice name btw it really shows that you care about how people percieve you. grow up, and try not to be such a sarcastic dick. thanks.

  • Ghost

    @plankbird: Best comment I’ve seen. It is also the reason I dont judge other religions.

    @MormonsSuck: Sure, its far fetched, But so is flying chariots battling in the skies(Hindu) or being swollowed by a whale(Christian) or making someone stand in the middle of a bondfire then keep it lit for 40 days and nights and the person comes out unharmed(Muslim).

    Seriously, Grow up kid.

  • Wondering_Why…

    “Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

    “Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Documentary History of the Church, Introduction, xl)

    “I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong…that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

    “…orthodox Christian views of God are Pagan rather than Christian.” (Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H. Roberts, p.116)

    “…the God whom the ‘Christians’ worship is a being of their own creation…” (Apostle Charles W. Penrose, JD 23:243)

    “The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God.” (Brigham Young, JD 8:171)

    “We may very properly say that the sectarian world do not know anything correctly, so far as pertains to salvation. Ask them where heaven is?- where they are going to when they die?-where Paradise is! -and there is not a priest in the world that can answer your questions. Ask them what kind of a being our Heavenly Father is, and they cannot tell you so much as Balaam’s ass told him. They are more ignorant than children.” (Brigham Young, JD 5:229).

    “The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness.” (Brigham Young, JD 5:73).

    “What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best.” (John Taylor, JD 13:225)

    “What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing…Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.” (John Taylor, JI) 13:225)

    “Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.177)

    “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” (Joseph Smith, DHC 1:6)

    “I spoke of the impropriety of turning away from the truth, and going after a people so destitute of righteousness as the Methodists.” (Joseph Smith, DHC 2:319)

    “…brother Joseph B. Nobles once told a Methodist priest, after hearing him describe his god, that the god they worshiped was the “Mormon’s” Devil-a being without a body, whereas our God has a body, parts and passions.” (Brigham Young, JD 5:331)

    “…brother Heber C. Kimball was beset by a number of Baptist priests who had been attending a conference. He read them all down out of the New Testament….With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.” (Brigham Young, JD 8:199).

    “The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon….” (Orson Pratt, Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, “Divine Authenticity,” no.6, p.84).

    “…all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels.” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)

    “And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act.” (Orson Pratt, OP-WA, “The Kingdom of God,” no.2, p.6)

    “…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who recieves baptism or the Lord’s supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt people.” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, pg. 255)

    “…the great apostate church as the anti-christ…This great antichrist…is the church of the devil.” (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.40)

    “Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness.” (Pratt, The Seer, p.255)

    “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth.” (Brigham Young, JD 6:176)

    “Evil spirits control much of the so-called religious worship in the world; for instance, the great creeds of Christendom were formulated so as to conform to their whispered promptings.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.246)

    “After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christiandom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common orgin. They belong to Babylon.” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p.324)

    Prophet Brigham Young regarding the Christian view of Jesus Christ:

    “You may hear the divines of the day extol the character of the Saviour, undertake to exhibit his true character before the people, and give an account of his origin…I have frequently thought of mules, which you know are half horse and half ass, when reflecting upon the representations made by those divines. I have heard sectarian priests undertake to tell the character of the Son of God, and they make him half of one species and half of another, and I could not avoid thinking at once of the mule, which is the most hateful creature that ever was made, I believe. You will excuse me, but I have thus thought many a time” (Journal of Discourses 4:217).

  • bdizzle

    @wondering_why………… why not put all of those “captions” in their full paragraphs/meanings. I’m sure that I could take a lot of things out of context to conform them to what I want them to be as well.

  • Wondering_Why…

    @bdizzle:

    I was hoping of a mormom explanation of what they mean…

  • Chaston

    @ Wondering_Why.. I’m pretty sure you know what they mean… I didn’t read them all because I’m pretty sure you just copied and pasted them from some random anti-mormon page you found; but what i did read was basically a bunch of crap inferring that Mormons disrespect other religions.Yes the Mormon religion does believe that they are the only true church. No, it is not arrogant to think such. Just because we believe we are the only true religion with the only true authority does not mean we do not believe other religions don’t have truths. There are several other religions that we acknowledge as having truth’s in their doctrine.

    The only two christian religions that can claim that they are the true church are the Mormons and the Catholics.

    http://www.lds-mormon.com/points.shtml

  • Wondering_Why…

    @chaston:

    Yes I understand that not all mormons believe the doctrines of the LDS church or what the current or past leaders have said. I personally believe that Joeseph Smith was a false prophet but I do not speak for all Christians. Are you speaking for all mormons when you say mormons do not disrespect other peoples religion? Even Jesus (God in human form) spoke out harshly of the Pharisees. I personally believe that any religion that claims that God is a exalted man is a false religion and is of man, not the eternal God of creation. I cannot speak for all Christians. I am thankful that God came in human form and freed us from law. I believe that those in the mormon church who know Jesus of the Bible will be saved.

    I cannot dismiss the opinions of exmormons nor those who oppose mormonism anymore than I can dismiss what opponents of political parties or corporations say, To only listen to and blindly believe official opinions is to not think. Do not the muslims feel their religion is true? Do not the Jehovah witnesses feel their religion is true? Do not the Catholics feel their religion is true? Even atheists feel their religion is true.

  • Wondering_Why…

    Thinking a bit more about it, when a mormon asks an exalted man if his feelings are true no doubt his feelings are verified.

  • bdizzle

    @wondering_why, if you wanted a mormon to explain them, you should have added that, instead of just listing a bunch of random things….I deffintly have to agree with Chaston. And……those weren’t church doctorines that you listed, and you would be hard pressed to find any mormons that agreed with them (in the context that you listed them) I believe that everyone is entitled to believe that their religion is true, ask anyone of any other religion and they’ll tell you that their church is the true church and that all the other churches are wrong, it really dependson what you’re brought up, I myself went to a catholic jr high, and was raised mormon, I ended up knowing more about the bible than 90% of my classmates….. and I guess we’ll all just have to wait till we die to see what the full truth is…….

  • itsjustme

    Wow, so i had tumbling today and it went ok i was only there for an hour because i had to go somewhere. Its almost the end of the term and almost christmas and im so excited :D Well i was supposed to be doing a report and i was typing montmouth battle for my report due tomorrow and i saw bizzare mormon beliefs pop up and i just had to read it and its hilarious. Speaking of reports i also have a spanish report and another history report due next week…oh well life works out doesnt it :D for the most part i dont know why people ever argue about the mormon church, what has the church ever done to you? maybe the people arent perfect but the ones who try tend to be very kind and generous people trying to live their lives in what they believe is the way to live. i myself am mormon and i love the activities the church has for a young adult as myself and i enjoy every minute of it ;)

  • Wondering_Why…

    itsjustme said:
    “i dont know why people ever argue about the mormon church, what has the church ever done to you?”

    People who seek the truth or just desire to learn about other beliefs investigate different religions. It seems to me that when one criticizes anything about the mormon church mormons tend to twist things in a manner to discredit those who criticize.

    Just because man enjoys something does not mean it comes from God (The God who created the universe and man, not the man that became god as mormonism teaches). Even the Jesus mormonism teaches of is not the same as the Jesus taught in the Bible. Then when one investigates the history of the mormon church leaders Joeseph Smith and Brigham Young reality seems so different than what the mormon church teaches.

    Should Christians remain silent about their concerns about mormomism? Where in the Bible does it say Christians are to be tolerant? Was Jesus always tolerant?

    When I started investigating mormonism I expected to learn that only minor differences existed. I was wrong.

    I expect mormonism will thrive but that does not mean, IMO, it is true.

    Show me that mormonism was taught by Jesus Christ and his apostles from their own words in the Bible.

    Galatians 1:6-11 (King James Version)

    6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

    11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

  • Wondering_Why…

    Galatians 1:6-11 (New International Version)

    No Other Gospel
    6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
    Paul Called by God
    11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up.

  • torda

    what the prophet says is not canon, he gives you the choice weather to follow what he says or not, also i still drink herbal tea, there is nothing wrong with it, also, it is your choice weather you want to give tithing or not, if we don’t, well i’m not sure what will happen, but i’ll eventually i guess… and preisthood is only meant for guys, it is given to men of the family, i am not exactly sure what you mean by it isn’t given to famalies.

  • torda

    Wondering_why… : i’m not sure where (i’d ask someone where it is) but somewhere in the Bible, it says that there will be another testiment of Jesus Christ.

  • Wondering_Why…

    @ torda:

    I believe you are mistaken. From what my research has turned up, IMO, it would be accurate to say that mormonism is a testament of another (different) Jesus and not the Jesus of the Bible.

  • Wondering_Why…

    BTW, my goal when I began investigating was to learn that mormonism is based on sound Christian doctrine but had minor differences such as is baptism necessary, predestination and so on that many denominations debate. My research has taught me that mormonism is a scam cult based on pseudo-history and science fiction. I would be much happier if I had found out that mormonism was a valid Christian religion but I believe in searching for the truth even if it hurts.

  • Rissaroo

    Okay so I can sort of see how everyone could think that stuff is weird… I mean I was raised catholic and when I was baptized into the LDS church I thought it was weird too… but seriously how cool is it that you don’t only have heaven or hell, but other places we can go to and that we can become like our father in heaven… sure it requires sacrifice, but we should not complain Jesus already gave the ultimate sacrifice. So We who are Mormon are happy to give some money to charity and give up addictive things like coffee and alcohol. P.S. Not all of us see spirits… its called a vision and I can name 13 people who aren’t in the bible, whom have had visions. And read the whole Book of Mormon and you will see that everyone at all times have a second chance

  • Rissaroo

    BTW to wondering why: Joseph Smith never became God. God is God, Jesus is Jesus and Joseph is Joseph. Even my Aesthetic friend knew that, are you truly that ignorant? Why don’t you read the whole Bible, the whole Books of Mormon and the whole D&C then you will know. I have never heard such Ignorant speaking save a few, in my entire years as a college professor.

  • Wondering_Why…

    @Rissaroo: As a educator at what college? Anyone can say that they are a professor, please substantiate your claim. If one is going to claim to be superior to others shouldn’t one provide proof?

    Why do mormons attack others personally rather than provide historical facts and Biblical references?

    Brought to mind what I found a few weeks ago by googling “lying for the Lord youtube” (without the quotes).

    Was God once a man? Is Joesph Smith sitting by Gods side in Heaven?

  • Wondering_Why…

    Show me that mormonism was taught by Jesus Christ and his apostles from their own words in the Bible.

    Galatians 1:6-11 (King James Version)

    6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

    11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

  • Wondering_Why…

    “enable men to become gods”

    http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132

    “1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26–27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.”

  • Wondering_Why…

    BTW, I am not a college professor. I am but a mere man, a sinner like all, no better than the next guy. I have to research and look things up. I simply seek the Truth rather than accept opinions of false prophets or college professors. I do not think that the LDS authorities provide unbiased information anymore than I think that political parties provide unbiased information.

    What parts of mormon beliefs and doctrine are in error? If the mormon church says something is true does that make it true? Should we question men in authority? What from what I have learned mormonism is the way to go if there is no God. Most Mormons are decent hardworking people that do good deeds and have high moral values. But, IMHO, if mormonism is true then the Bible is false.

  • Wondering_Why…

    Was God one a man? If so was God once a sinner?

    Joseph Smith (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345):

    “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret… It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know…that he was once a man like us…. Here, then, is eternal life – to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves,… the same as all Gods have done before you…”

    Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 7:333):

    “He [God] is our Father – the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being.”

    Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 3:93):

    “The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself.”

    Milton R. Hunter (The Gospel Through the Ages, p 104):

    “Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar that through which we are now passing. He became God – an exalted being – through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths that we are given opportunity today to obey.”

    Bruce R. McConkie (Mormon Doctrine, 1966 ed p 250):

    “…God…is a personal Being, a holy and exalted man…”

    Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation 1:10, 1954, cited from 21st printing 1975):

    “God is an exalted man. Some people are trouble over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith … that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man…”

    LeGrand Richards (private letter to Morris L. Reynolds, July 14, 1966):

    “There is a statement often repeated in the Church, and while it is not in one of the Standard Church Works, it is accepted as church doctrine, and this is: ‘As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.'” (cited by Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, p 164

    Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young (published by the church as an official lesson manual 1997 [text “approved 10/95”], p. 29):

    “President Brigham Young taught … that God the Father was once a man on another planet who ‘passed the ordeals we are now passing through…'”

  • Umbra33

    Mormonism is nothing more than a cult, that happened to start at the right place and time to thrive. No one seems to have mentioned their institutionalized racism, and their belief that black people are “the race of Cain” and are inferior. If Jim Jones had been at the right place and time, I’m sure a whole new religion of Kool-Aid drinkers would have been spawned. They abandon parts of their core beliefs only because federal law or political corectness forces them to do so. Like any other religious zealots, they’re all just brainwash victims.

  • Mormonism is no more a cult than my beliefs. I basically agree with most of the 10 “weird” highlights.

    10 titheing IS a heaven or hell issue. Not paying them is literally stealing from God. He helped us aquire all our stuff. Just think of it as a finders fee. (little joke)

    9 caffine, booze tobacco we all know is bad for us!!! our bodies are the temple of the Lord. It is sin to mistreat them

    8 spirits I’m not sure about this one. I know our spirits are eternal and will always be(life after death) soo…to say they have always been is not that big a stretch

    7 In my religon too what a setting leader sets forth becomes absolute law. And to disobey in and of it’s self is a sin. (unless it directly contradicts the accepted holy word of God.)

    6 who are we to say that Jesus didn’t visit the americas. He’s God he can do what ever he wants. He came to seek and save that which was lost. The whole gospel to the whole world means native americans tooo!!

    5 Although I believe that there is only one God. I believe he himself came to earth robed in flesh and bone as Jesus and that the Holy Spirit, according to Saint John is the very breathe of God. However I believe his flesh was transfigured to heavenly body.

    4 We are all ministers who eagerly seek God and we are all called to his purpose….we represent him and are responsible for our witness. we are saved by our testimonies and his grace.

    3 We don’t call it three heavens but there is heaven, and Jesus will set forth the new earth and hell is very real!!!

    2 Forgiveness…. we live undergrace now sooo every sin is forgiveable accept denying the Holy Spirit until grace is over (at the second coming) then … well if you commit sin you will pay the price. The only way to attone for sin after the second coming is to be beheaded for christs sake. In other words instead of him dying for us we must die for him. \

    1 as for Gods family (other Gods…) he says great is the mystery of God. So I will respect his privacy. BUT I think he created other worlds and the like. My word the angels came from somewhere.

    If you’re curious now…I am Traditional Apostolic Pentecostal… “they” call us a cult too!!!!!

  • Umbra33

    apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday:

    As I stated, religious zealots are brainwashed, are you? Just try thinking out of the box for a change. Can you come up with any original ideas without reaching into your doctrine for an answer. You just can’t stand the fact that “free thinkers” exist out there who don’t agreee with your brand of brainwash.

  • Umbra33

    Warren Jeffs would have been the ideal Mormon posterboy had he lived 75-100 years ago. Colorado city, AZ would have been the ideal Mormon utopia had it existed back then too. What kind of religion abandons it’s religious convictions because the law of the land makes certain practices illegal? One that was founded on shaky moral ground to begin with…

  • umbra33

    Why do think religious zealots have to be brainwashed? I think you just can’t stand the fact that we choose to believe anything at all that YOU disagree with. I respect the right of ” free thinkers” to think what ever they want and to express and discuss views and opinions in an open forum without ridicule or distain. It is some
    “free thinkers” who look down upon, belittle and are condescending towards anybody who chooses to disagree. That is hardly openminded. “free thinker” is a bit of a misnomer when you completely dismiss someone just because they have religous convictions. Maybe small minded or intolerant would fit better.

    As for Warren Jeffs give me a break. There are good and bad people in all walks of life. No organization secular or otherwise is perfect.

    Just because people choose to be good citizens and not to break the law doesn’t mean they abondon their convictions. In out society we can’t choose which laws to follow and which not to follow. (Unless that law directly conflicts with the word of God such as killing or mameing) Then anyone could just do whatever they wanted and claim religious conviction.

    FYI I made my origial post in order to make what I considered an odd comparison. I would had never thought LDS could have so much in common with my beliefs until I stumbled on to this list. I was laughing at myself a little realizing how odd the rest of the world must see me. I had no idea anyone would react so stangely harsh.

    You need to look at yourself a figure out why what I think, feel, believe or say effects you in such a negative way.

    Why don’t you think out of the box come up with something other than beating the dead horse of brainwashing. If you don’t agree religious people then they must be weak minded, stupid and so impressionable as to give up thinking for themselves. Can you come up with any original ideas with out reaching into a hateful bigoted bag of tricks full of empty statements and propagandized rederick.

    Seriously,you just can’t stand the fact that I don’t agree with you. You are the epitome of closed minded.

  • Umbra33

    My point about Warren Jeffs is this: The Mormon religion as it was established not only would agree with Warren Jeff’s actions, it would hold him in very high regard. Tell me you don’t think having plural teanage wives isn’t wrong.. It takes away the self determination of young girls and turns them into slaves. I have no problem with the beliefs of certain religions, it’s just when they tell everyone that they’ll go to hell if they don’t believe as they do. I was born and lived in a Moslem country till I was 7. I’ve had my fill of religious zealotry, my poor sisters were treated very badly in accordance with Moslem law… So you can see where I’m coming from.

  • Brad

    This is definitely not their weirdest beliefs at all- I”m suspicious the church itself published this site. The really weird crap is in this order.
    1. Magical Holy Secret Handshakes- Mormons have a system of handshakes they undergo inside their temples to get to heaven and become a god.
    2. Magical Mormon Underpants- Mormons wear garments, with freemasonry symbols on the nipples and the Navel. The compass, square and a line. There are many superstitious beliefs concerning these, they think they’ll protect them from evil and have even been known to stop bullets. The worst underwear you’ll ever see. Google it.
    3. Baptisms for the dead- I had to do this: Mormons go in and get baptized for dead people. Most of the names on the lists are made up, through “inspiration” but are also people that have actually died. 12 years old go in, and get dunked up to 30 times per imaginary and legitimate name, on a giant baptismal font, located on the backs of 12 oxen/cows. Really creepy.
    4. Masturbation- Masturbation is seen as a grotesque sin amongst the Mormon cult. It’s taught in Mormonism that it’s better to screw a pig than it is to masturbate. They believe that if a male never masturbates, his body won’t start producing sperm until he gets married. But once he starts, he can’t stop, and must get married to a woman ASAP. (ahem, bullshit)
    5. Patriarchs and Patriarchal blessings- Fortune tellers, and fortunes.
    6. Anointing oil for blessings- Basically Magic potion. You put the oil on some poor saps head before (casting a spell)/(giving some long winded blessing).
    7. Seer stones- basically a crystal ball, only crystal and glass were too expensive, so Joseph Smith used rocks instead.
    8. Joseph smith IS the Holy Ghost. Yes, Joseph Smith claimed he was a direct descendant of Jesus Christ and that he is in fact the Holy Ghost himself. This is no longer taught in mainstream Mormonism, but was taught up until the 1930’s. Most Mainstream Mormons would deny this to their dying breath- they don’t know. I was raised in this church and learned from the Journal of Discourses.
    9. People live on the moon- Yes, Brigham Young taught that the formations on the moon were actually vast cities, and that the moon had been “celestialized”. Joseph Smith said that they were 5’5″ and dressed like Quackers. This of course is no longer taught in mainstream Mormonism.
    10. Blood Atonement- Brigham Young taught that if someone committed a Major sin, that was considered unforgivable, it was everyones duty to kill them so they can be saved and go to heaven. The blood atonement rituals were taken out of the Temple Endowment process in April of 91′ after a massacre in 1990, which was related to Brigham Youngs Blood Atonement. Most mainstream mormons are completely unaware of Blood Atonement, and would think the idea was absurd and blatantly lie about it ever being taught within that particular Church.

  • Chaston

    The Pope taught that if you grow an extra penis then you are god

    Buddha taught that hermaphrodites excrete misshapen poo

    Muhammad taught that curly hair was the sign of satanic worshipping

    Brad… do you see what I’m doing here… do you see my sources?… my statements are just as valid as yours then

  • Justice

    Why would you come on here and just make fun of the things that some people find sacred..its so disrespectful and sad really. Why cant people find something else to do..If you really think about it, it would take a very selfish low person to just make fun of others beliefs it is just sad.

  • @Umbra33 (523):
    Yes, of course I can see where you are coming from. Although our women are NOT as oppressed as women in some moslem countries, we are still considered by people looking in to be not as free as the rest of America. We don’t cut our hair, our sleeves can be no shorter that 3/4, no make up, skirts or dresses only with a hemline not more than 6 inches above the ankle, no jewelry etc. Women are subject to our fathers and then our husbands. If the men in our lives are unrighteous then we are subject to our pastors. I don’t live this way because man beat my mind down so low that I can’t think for myself. I have a choice. I study the word for my self and follow it accordingly.

    As for teeage plural marriage. NO teenager should be married period. Whether by choice or forcable. But there are many cultures with arranged marriages even still today with good results. So to down a belief system because some arrogant perverted bad apples is still wrong. Plural marriage is only wrong because of todays laws. The only people the Holy Bible commands to have only one wife are bishops, and I take that to mean clergy and/or leadership in general. Many biblical figures had more than one wife and even women on the side. Look at Abraham if he would have trusted God and been patient and left the concubine alone the world would be a much different place. Thery are still fighting over the birthright to Gaza.

    You have the right to believe or not believe as you choose, and so what if they tell you you’re going to hell, ignore um. Study, search and pray or meditate form your own opinions, I was only trying to say there is no reason to have a bad attitude.

  • Umbra33

    Justice:
    Enough with the rightious indignation. Knowledge is power, the more you know about people around you, the better off you are. I work with a couple of mormons, and I know what they really think about my dark skin. They are nice enough on the surface, but when it comes down to brass tacks, I know what they really think.

  • Umbra33

    Brad:
    Great post.. History revisionism at it’s worst. Repeat a lie enough times and it becomes fact, classic mind control of the Stalinist variety. You don’t see the Catholics denying the inquisition ever taking place.. I’m sure the Vatican isn’t proud of it’s history, but at least they acknowledge it. Unfortunately not so with the mormons. God forbid anyone bringing up their shady past, they’ll be damned to the lowest hell conjured up by these sick minds.

  • Wondering_Why…

    Anyone know where the man who became the heavenly father came from? I have been trying to figure out if mormonism actually teaches that man created God.

    Did the heavenly father cause Mary to become an adultress? Was the Jesus of mormonism a bastard?

    Was polygamy an everlasting covenant? If so how long do everlasting covenants last before they reach their expiration date?

    Did J Smith ever teach anything from the Book of Mormon? Since mormonism claims it was “the most correct book” and “one could get closer to God by it’s teachings then any other book”, why DIDN’T smith teach from the book of mormon?

  • Umbra33

    I read a statistic somewhere that all the churhes in the US are losing members, the LDS being the leader in this trend (I wonder why). When a church, or belief structure treat their followers like a bunch of brain dead morons, it no longer serves them. If religions didn’t insult the intelligence of their believers with outdated medieval doctrine, I’m sure the trend would reverse. All this going to hell if you don’t obey business just doesn’t cut it anymore with modern critical thinking individuals. The Christian Church went through a reformation hundreds of years ago, maybe it’s time for another one!

  • Umbra33

    Chaston:

    If you had to defecate out of a horses ass, your poo would be deformed too.

    If you had 2 penises, you could bump dicks with yourself, not a very “Godly” thing to do I’m afraid.

    As for curly hair, I think if you shaved it off, it is equivelant to renouncing the devil.

  • Houstonian

    It seems that there are a lot of strong negative feelings about mormons out there. I think mormons are just an easy target because they are a relatively new faith with American roots. Evangelicals call mormons out for being part of some upstart cult, forgetting that just a few centuries ago the protestants were labeled as apostate catholics and anglicans.
    Nowadays, bible-thumpers criticize mormons for believing that they have an exclusive monopoly on salvation. So what? Doesn’t every religion believe that to a certain degree? Most protestants believe you have to accept Jesus and read the Bible to be saved. That sounds fairly exclusive when you consider the BILLIONS of people on earth who don’t profess faith in JC or read the Bible.

    Now consider this: Mormons maintain that an angel spoke to a mortal man and he was called to be a prophet and establish the kingdom of god on earth and preach strange doctrines that were once known to the ancients (Adam, Abraham, Jesus, etc) but were lost through the years. Part of these teachings include a strict dietary code, provisions that allow a man to have multiple wives, and an order to spread the faith by vigorous proselytizing and convert the entire world. Oh yeah, this prophet also prepared a previously unknown body of writings that became accepted as divine scripture. They also believes that everyone must accept its teachings to be saved.

    On a point for point basis, the above description also applies to Islam. Aside from the belief that Jesus is the divine son of God, mormonism actually has much in common with Islam, possibly more than with any other religion.

    I wonder if the same people that waste their lives protesting around mormon cathedrals (or temples) also protest outside of mosques? I’ve been in Salt Lake City during a mormon convention, and people come from all over the country to protest outside their convention center. How many self-righteous evangelicals travel to Mecca to waive their protest signs and verbally accost worshipers there?

    As I said, mormons are today’s love-to-hate-em’ heretics, just like protestants were for catholics and early christians were for Jews

  • Umbra33

    Houstonion:
    The Saudi government won’t issue any visas to non-moslems unless it is for business. Additionally, only moslems are allowed into the city of Mecca.. So protesting in Mecca is not an option. Protesting Islam in any Islamic country would net quick punishment, they don’t have the freedoms we have here. The beauty of the USA is freedom of speech thought and religion. I only take issue with religion when it harms people, and the mormons seem to be the worst perpetrators in this country.

  • lemur

    @toolnut (64): While the LDS church no longer allows polygamy that was only becase the federal government told them if they wanted statehood they had to drop that policy. But I still think there’s a lot of winking and nodding and odd things being allowed. Also they do ENCOURAGE celestial polygamy. Each man is a minister to take many heavenly (dead) brides and raise up all his tribe of kids on their very own planet, no less!! No, I am not kidding. This also explains why there is such a push for geneology work in the church. They want you to find women ancestors to ‘marry ‘ into these celestial units. How much wierder can this be? How does ANYBODY believe this crazziness?? I’d really like a direct answer from a mormon. Not based on the Mormon books but on the bible only and just plain old commmon sence!!! And not vauge generalisms. How do you bewlieve in golden tablets, sacred underwear and on and on.

  • lemur

    Also many LDS will say we are not strange because we don’t smoke or drink coffee or alcohol. Or thithing either That in both OT and NT. How is any chruch supposed to run without $$? Buildings, heating, AC, rugs, furniture, books, organs, pulpits and salaries all cost money. So too does some of the 10% go to buy food and provide for their members in crisis like losing a job, death in family or long term need even.
    But what the non-LDS are saying is wierd is not the coffee or tea thing, it’s the holy underwear, golden plates, Indians from Israel, celestial marriage esp. I never hear any regular type of LDS tell why they believe all that stuff. and don’t hide behind any of their various books of mormon. Where is the logic of a faith that believes in golden tablets that only JS saw and read but that all are supposed to obey??? We all’get’ the coffee stuff–but what about this stuff that belies common sense. Please post me if you can answer withought vague generalities. As one Mormon friend told me, “Well, it is all a bit hard to swallow in the beginning.” DUH?

  • @Umbra33 (528): you “know what they are thinking” oh… I get it… so now you’re a mind reader. Anyone who diagrees with you get’s put down. When you can’t defend your point rationally you lash out. I don’t know who hurt you so badly to make you so bitter… but you really need to look into the root of your attitude.

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  • Umbra33

    apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday:
    No, I’m no mind reader.. I was simply saying that being informed is a good thing. When I was much younger, I tried finding work in this area, with no success. Later, I found out that the companies I had applied with were mormon owned.. Later still, a “Jack Mormon” friend of mine told me of some of their beliefs. Now I know why I wasn’t even considered, even though I was qualified. Perhaps this is the “root” of my attidude, I don’t know. Had I been less naive and more informed back then, I wouldn’t have even wasted my time trying to get hired with those companies, so knowledge is power.

  • Umbra33

    apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday:
    If all religions are to be believed, everyone’s going to hell, including you, because you’re not Moslem. Do you see the outragousness in all this. I really don’t think God cares how one dresses, or what day of the week one goes to Church. Those rules were made up my men, fanatical men. The post I wrote to Justice probably offended you, It wasn’t my intention to offend anyone. I was merely countering a ridiculous statement with more ridiculousness. The statements Justice claims were made by these religious leaders were probably taken out of context, and they are not part of their respective religious doctrines. If a religious leader to be said “Im so hungry, I could eat a horse” It doesn’t necessarily mean that we should all eat horses, if we are believers of that religion. I’m sure a fanatical extremist of that religion would take it literally, and proclaim that people who don’t eat horses are going to hell. Just to let you know, I’m a Christian, but not of any particular denomination.

  • Umbra33

    Christ said “..And the truth shall set you free.” Not meaningless rituals and strange beliefs, but the truth! Some of these religious denominations have strayed so far from the truth, they’ll be never free. Christ also said something to the effect that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a greedy man to go to heaven. Some Christian evangalist fit this description to a tee. With their Gulfstream jets and their limos, they’re obviously attached to things of the flesh and this world. Still thousands of people send them the money they so worship. Just try flying that Gulfstream IV through the eye of a needle.. Hipocryts and extortionists of the lowest order..

  • lemur

    @jamie (73): I really don’t think most non-LDS think that you guys are wierd just because you avoid caffein. It’s because more than you think already know about the gold tablets, holy underwear, celestial baptisms and marriages, living on your very own planet, and the claim that you worship Jesus. It just seems that you worship everything or every other person than Jesus. That’s why we can’t understand you. Please post me and explain how you can logically beleive on the items above. Thank you.

  • Wondering_Why…

    Mormon beliefs state that God was once a man and that they will be gods bother me a lot more than their choice of panties that they are supposed to wear to remind them of their convictions.

    I do not believe in blindly following what the men who run the mormon church say.

    I do not believe that God physically impregnated Eve.

    Since mormonism claims it was “the most correct book” and “one could get closer to God by it’s teachings then any other book”, why DIDN’T smith teach from the book of mormon?

    How long does an everlasting covenant last?

    I believe that those who believe in Jesus (the one in the Bible) will be saved.

    Yes, the mormon church has a lot in common with Islam so my thoughts make me think that perhaps they should be claiming to be muslim rather than claiming to be Christian.

    Just because something makes one feel good does not mean it is from God (God = the creator who was never a man).

  • Umbra33

    Wondering_Why…
    You said it all, blindly following the leaders. The mormon church makes a huge effort to recruit people who are down and out, single mothers, vulnerable people. They send out 19 year old boys dressed in white shirts and black slacks on mountain bikes to proselytize their religion. Really clean cut creepy looking automotons with backpacks. Male versions of the Stepford Wives, if you could imagine that. The whole thing is a huge production line of mind control, from beginning to end. Breed them, convert them, brainwash them, take 10%, and so on. I think the bizarre stuff is thrown in there as a way to disorient newcomers, another classic mind control trick. When the mind is disoriented, it makes it easy to get in there and mould it in any fashion. So when seen in it’s totality, the mormon religion is really a work of genius. An organization so efficient, it makes Fortune 500 companies look like lemonade stands.

  • Houstonian

    Umbra33:

    “I only take issue with religion when it harms people, and the mormons seem to be the worst perpetrators in this country”

    Care to elaborate on that? Have I missed something in the news about a massive mormon takeover or something? Remember that any arguments made against a single religion must be made based on the canon law or mainstream teachings of the faith and not the actions of a few fanatical individuals.
    For example, it is irrational to discredit the 7th Day Adventists because Robert Yates became a serial killer, the Catholics because of the Inquisition or Crusades, or the entire Islamic faith because of the events of 9/11. Therefore, what mormon teachings are so harmful as to make them “the worst perpetrators in this country”?

    Do the mormons preach genocide or hate-mongering door to door? I don’t want to defend mormonism, but I do like to engage in lively discussion whenever a group is singled out for criticism from various fronts.

    Oh, and in response to the previous post, doesn’t the Christian bible make it clear that
    one should take up the cross and preach the gospel and suffer for Christ’s sake. Wouldn’t preaching Christ crucified in a hostile environment be the ultimate christian sacrifice, guaranteeing salvation? Does the Bible say “Go unto the ends of the earth and preach my gospel, but only in countries where there will be no penalty and freedom of speech and religious tolerance are the norm.” After all, Christ’s kingdom was not of this world, right? Again, I don’t mean to be antagonistic, I’m just trying to get a feeling for what motivates people to vigorously protest one religion over another.

  • Umbra33

    Hustonian:
    Massive mormon takeover, have you ever been to Utah? They didn’t have to take it over, it was theirs from the beginning. Racism and polygamy are and were mainstream teachings of the the mormons. The Catholics are reminded about the Inquisition all the time, even though it occured in the 17th century. Besides, this blog is about the 10 wierdest MORMON beliefs, not the other religions you mentioned. Point me to blogs bashing other religions, I’ll gladly bash them too, if I think they deserve it. I don’t agree with proselytizing either.. I believe one’s relationship to one’s God is a very personal affair, and not something to be interpreted by by some supposed holy man and shoved down the throat of the believing.

  • apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday

    @Umbra33 (539):
    Racism is absolutly a fact in this world and absolutly wrong. It hides its ugly face in places we don’t expect and blind sides us. I also know that there are racists in all walks of life and in every color. To discount all Mormons as racists is just as wrong. To lump any one group in to a sterotype is wrong. I don’t doubt there are ignorant people. I just hold hope they are in the minority.

    As for proselytizing, I’ve done my fair share of door knocking. It’s a part of the great commission. Jesus intructed us to take the whole gospel to the whole world. I agree he did not say to force it onto people, but sharing my religion and brainwashing people are polar opposites.

  • Wondering_Why…

    Were Jesus’ instructions to take the book of mormon to the whole world?

  • apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday

    @Wondering_Why… (547):
    In a word…no. I’m just saying that they believe the BoM is as inspired as the Holy Bible therefore I can understand where they derive the importance of missions and witnessing

  • Wondering_Why…

    Is remaining politically correct more important than Jesus of the Bible?

  • Shana1622

    Other people’s religions are a lot like a TV show I don’t watch. It seems weird at first but when I start watching, it becomes clearer and easier to tune into. Sometimes when I’m watching a show I try to remind myself that someone fabricated a visual reality mainly to get me to watch their advertising

  • Umbra33

    Shana(1622)
    Good analogy, wierd until you become indoctrinated.. Then you buy into the advertising and start tithing. So the leaders in the organization can pay for their Learjets and Gulfstream IV’s and huge staff and travelling minstrel show. If Jesus came back now, he would not be kind to these extortionists. In fact, I think he would make alot of enemies, he would probably be crucified in the media.

  • Wondering_Why…

    How do mormons identify a false prophet – how do mormons differentiate a true prophet from a false one?

  • Umbra33

    Wondering_Why…(552) It’s very easy, their prophet tells them which ones are true and which ones are false. Takes all the thinking out of the process. Who wants to go through all the trouble of engaging one’s critical thinking faculties, when a great prophet can do all your thinking for you..

  • Umbra33

    Wondering_Why…(549)Remaining politically correct beats going to jail, and being stigmatized by the rest of the country, and losing worshippers, and losing market share in tithes to other religions. Why not? Just some quick history revisionism and the whole thing gets swept under the rug. Anyone caught bringing up the subject goes straight to hell, mormon hell, where everybody smokes and drinks and only has one wife.

  • Wondering_Why…

    Stating opinions that stand up for Jesus of the Bible over the different jesus of mormonism does not seem to be politically correct in the US due to religious freedom. I have no problem allowing mormons to worship as they choose but I have a problem with them using the same words Christians use to describe different things and then claiming to be Christians. Seems like mormons did not want to be called Christians 20 or 30 years ago.

    We are supposed to go along with that because Jesus is in the name of the mormon church it does not matter that they define Jesus differently from the Bible. If a church’s doctrine claimed jesus was some sort of four legged furry creature but they had Jesus in the name of their church would that make it a Christian church?

    I thought only those who left the mormon church or murdered innocent people or blasphemed the Holy Spirit went to mormon hell.

    Mormons that I know are actually more decent people than many who claim to be mainstream Christians.

    I recently asked a mormon if they died right now would they go to Heaven and be with God. No answer to the question came from her. Not a “yes”, not a “no” not “I don’t know”. Instead I was informed of that I was an evil person. That person no longer speaks to me. I already knew that (Only God is good). I am a sinner like everyone else. Only Grace can save, not dirty rags.

    I will remain politically incorrect and defend Jesus of the Bible in my words and thoughts even though it offends mormons.

  • Umbra33

    Wondering_Why…(555)I have no problem either about people worshiping as they please, I just think it’s a waste of their mind.. Something God gave us all as sentient beings. Of course mormons are decent people, it’s part of the programming. Just like crazy moslem types can be brainwashed into fyling planes into buildings, mormons can be “conditioned” to act in a certain way. When confronted with a difficult question, they clam up, they’re programmed this way. Your mormon ex lady friend was in danger of becoming tainted with having to think for herself, you could have corrupted the whole program, like a virus. No doubt, she had to pray with elders to get re programmed, and given strict instructions to stay away from you. It’s like getting the latest state of the art computer and loading Windows 95 on it. A dumbing down from one’s true potential. I work with a really brilliant computer programmer who’s mormon. Sharp as a tack, but when it comes to religion, logic goes out the window. I am not afraid of being swayed by new theologies, I’ve thought everything through for myself and come to my own conclusions. The isolation aspect of the mormon religion was desigined to protect against loss of programming. They know how tenuous the minds of their members really are. Fed with endless propaganized drivel on a regular basis, just to keep the programming topped off. Get seperated from the drivel and they could stray. If they had figured things out for themselves, as I believe God intended for every human, I think they would be alot stronger in their convictions.

  • Wondering_Why…

    She is a relative, ex lady friend is, IMHO, a poor choice of words that might twist the truth in some peoples mind.

    What I have personally seen in the mormons I know (I am not speaking of all mormons) is that they have problems dealing with their past mistakes and shortcomings (sins) and have failed to accept forgiveness without their vain attempt at earning salvation. IMHO, if it was possible for man to achieve perfection then God did not have to come to earth in human form. To me the crucifixion of Jesus makes absolutely no sense at all if law and ritual was the way to please God and be with Him. Only Gods free Grace saves.

  • Umbra33

    Wondering_Why…(557)Sorry for the poor choice of words, I could see someone with their minds in the gutter getting the wrong impression. So what you’re basically saying is.. Some of them don’t feel worthy of forgiveness, and see through the futility of law and ritual as a means to achieve salvation?

  • apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday

    @Wondering_Why… (557):
    Do you believe once in grace always in grace? I agree we are saved by the grace of God through the death and resurection of Christ. True repentance is acknowledging your sin, asking for forgiveness then never doing again. So I guess what I’m asking is if you believe that you can live anyway you want and then as long as you say I’m sorry later it’s okay even if you know what you’re doing is wrong. Purposfully repeating the bad behavior. That kind of abuse of grace to me is like a neverending get out of jail free card. What are your thoughts?

  • krispykreme

    apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday, i agree with you. in fact, i happen to be LDS (mormon) myself. you are absolutely right :)

  • apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday

    @krispykreme (560): thank you.

  • Karen Eckstein Sarkissian

    I did a brief skimming of the responses here and had to laugh aloud. How do you and everyone else come off thinking they know the answers and God’s will? Were any of you there when the bibles were written? For that matter, who wrote the bible? Do you know why Jesus is considered divine (read up on the Nicean council of 325)? How do you know the Jews aren’t right or that the Muslims aren’t right? You are who you are by the sake of your birth and have no right to judge anyone else or pass judgment on God’s words. Respect other people’s religions and feelings and maybe this worlds will be a better place.

  • Umbra33

    Karen Eckstein Sarkissian(263) Respect other people’s religions and feelings, no right to judge anyone else? Why don’t you take your own advice.. I think laughing aloud at other peoples comments is pretty judgemental. God is all things to all people, there is no right or wrong concept of God, it’s subjective and very personal, IMHO. How do we know the Muslims aren’t right, we don’t.. It’s only when they fly planes into our buildings, treat women like cattle and forcefully circumscise their young girls and other acts of barbarity that I judge as being wrong.

  • Marry

    When did Spencer W. kimble pass on. I was told that he was the 12 th present of the LDS Church and that when he dies Christ would come agine
    Marry

  • Karen Eckstein Sarkissian

    You missed my point Umbra33 and did exactly what I was talking about. The muslims you speak of are extremists, just like the fundamentalist Christians who tell me that because I am Jewish, that I will not go to heaven. You cannot help to what religion you are born and such is the religion that you believe. No one know what is right and no one knows what is the right path. I am not judging anyone, just those that judge others. That’s it.

  • apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday

    @Karen Eckstein Sarkissian (565): This is my point as well. There are crazies in every walk of life and religion. Why throw a blanket of judgment across an entire group of people? It’s the people doing the judging who are the problem.

  • Umbra33

    Karen Eckstein Sarkissian(565)
    History shows us that it is the extremist branch of any religion or political system who hijack the rest of the society and cause all the problems. In the 1930’s it was Hitler…The rest of the German people just wanted to get along, and let this maniac gain power. In present day Iran it’s Ahmadinijad and his band of mullah’s, who want to wipe Isreal off the map. Most of the Iranian population don’t agree with this freak, but they just shut up to get along. In Britain, the Moslems are trying to take over and spread Sharia law. East London is nicknamed “Londonistan” because of the huge Moslem population. These Moslems would be considered “moderate” Moslems by your reckoning. So you see, if you don’t judge others and want to play nice, they’ll completley overrun your society.

  • apostolicpentecostalchurchtoday

    let’s just say what we mean. We all know there are extremist hell bent on taking over the world using the excuse of religious conviction. We know we will ALL end up fighting and waring in the end. The point is to love our ENEMY as ourselves. Yes I mean those hate mongers who would rather see me writhe in pain and die than to live and worship my God as I see fit. VICTORY is loving the souls of every man, woman and child no matter how much hatred, contempt and pure evil their heart contains. There is a time for war and a time for peace. A time to live and a time to die. I am willing to fight, war and die for mine. ARE YOU??? There are the battles we must fight and forces we must not let over take us. BUT “judging” and picking apart each other is counter productive and just an