7 Terrible Abuses Suffered By Women Around The World
- Published June 10, 2008 - 525 Comments
NOTE: Some readers may find the text and images on this list disturbing. For most of our readers, the biggest troubles in their lives are petrol prices, long working hours, and increasing food costs. For many women in the world, these are the least of their concerns. Terrible atrocities are committed against untold numbers of women around the world every day and for most of these women, justice will never be served. This is a list of the worst of the atrocities. In no particular order:
Bride kidnapping is a common practice in Kyrgyzstan and Turkmenistan. When it is time to get married in Kyrgyzstan, a man or his family will pick a woman and she will be kidnapped. The prospective groom and his male relatives or friends or both abduct the girl (in the old nomadic days, on horseback; now often by car) and take her to the family home, where the older women of the family try to get her to accept the marriage. Some families will keep the girl hostage for several days to break her will. Others will let her go if she remains defiant. The kidnapped woman’s family may also become involved in the process, either urging the woman to stay if the marriage is believed to be socially acceptable or advantageous for the prospective bride and her family, or opposing the marriage on various grounds and helping liberate the woman.
In Ethiopia and Rwanda it is quite brutal, where the man kidnaps the woman and rapes her. The family of the woman either then feels obliged to consent to the union, or is forced to when the kidnapper impregnates her, as no one else would marry a pregnant woman.
Honor Killing is a punitive murder, committed by members of a family against a female member of their family whom the family and/or wider community believes to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman is usually targeted for: refusing an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce (even from an abusive husband), or committing adultery or fornication. These killings result from the perception that any behavior of a woman that “dishonors” her family is justification of a killing that would otherwise be deemed murder. UNICEF has reported that in India, more than 5,000 brides are killed annually because their marriage dowries are considered insufficient. As of 2004, honor killings have occurred within parts of various countries, such as Albania, Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Ecuador, Germany, India, Iraq, Israel, Italy, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, Uganda, United Kingdom and the United States.
Bride Burning is a form of domestic violence practiced in parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other countries located on or around the Indian subcontinent. In bride burning cases it is alleged that a man, or his family, douses his wife with kerosene, gasoline, or other flammable liquid, and sets the woman alight, leading to death by fire.
Acid Attacks are a violent phenomena that primarily occur in Afghanistan. Perpetrators of these attacks throw acid at their victims (usually at their faces), burning them. The consequences include permanent scarring of the face and body as well as potential blindness. Acid attacks are sometimes referred to as vitriolage.
Female genital mutilation refers to all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural, religious or other non-therapeutic reasons. FGM is practiced throughout the world, with the practice concentrated most heavily in Africa. There have been many concerted efforts by the WHO to end the practice. Among practicing cultures, FGM is most commonly performed between the ages of four and eight, but can take place at any age from infancy to adolescence. The procedure, when performed without anesthetic, can lead to death through shock from immense pain or excessive bleeding.
Since the fall of the iron curtain, the impoverished former Eastern bloc countries such as Albania, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine have been identified as major trafficking source countries for women and children. Young women and girls are often lured to wealthier countries by the promise of money and work and then reduced to sexual slavery. It is estimated that 2/3 of women trafficked for prostitution worldwide annually come from Eastern Europe, three-quarters have never worked as prostitutes before. The major destinations are Western Europe (Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, UK and Greece), the Middle East (Turkey, Israel, the United Arab Emirates), Asia, Russia and the United States. An estimated 500,000 women from Central and Eastern Europe are working in prostitution in the EU alone.
In parts of Ghana, a family may be punished for an offense by having to turn over a virgin female to serve as a sex slave within the offended family. In this system of slavery of ritual servitude, young virgin girls are given as slaves in traditional shrines and are used sexually by the priests in addition to providing free labor. [Image above: two young female slaves]
This article is licensed under the GFDL because it contains quotations from Wikipedia.
Contributor: rushfan












June 10th, 2008 at 6:15 am
can’t believe some of this stuff goes on in the world
June 10th, 2008 at 6:19 am
Jesus this list is depressing… It’s disgusting that these things still go on in the world.
A well written list I think, nice one rushfan.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:24 am
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”
-Sir Charles Napier, upon hearing of the Indian custom of Sati (burning widows alive on their husbands’ funeral pyres)
June 10th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Very well written rushfan. I appreciate your efforts to bring these disgusting acts to the world stage.
Well done!
June 10th, 2008 at 6:28 am
Thank you for respecting the seriousness of this list. I feel, as a woman in the Western world, that it is my duty to not only appreciate my freedom, but at the very least educate myself about what life is like as a woman in the rest of the world.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Really makes you appreciate living in the US, eh?
June 10th, 2008 at 6:49 am
a few years ago after the albanian conflict dyncorp(an american company) pleaded guilty to selling over 200,000 women and children into slavery. Nothing was done, no penalties were paid, no one was punished, and dyncorp is in Iraq right now making hundreds of millions . But we wont talk about that since jfrater isnt a “conspiracy person”.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Very, very good (if utterly depressing and heart-wrenching) list. Sometimes we forget how many repugnant things are going on in the world around us, and how often women (and children) are the victim of them.
Nice, too, that this list isn’t simply an Islam-bash-fest.
Well done.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:51 am
I am absolutely horrified at the stuff that women are put through. This list actually made me cry and never again will I take it for granted that I am a Canadian citizen. The people that actually commit these horrors against women will have to answer to someone one day and I hope they’re treated exactly the same way as they have treated these women. Karma does work!
June 10th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Very good list!
It is really heart breaking to know that these things go on around the world.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:08 am
Wow, how depressing. So sad that most of these inhumanities are sanctioned (or appear to be) by other women. As humans we should not hesitate to take action against such injustices, as a man, I am no less guilty of inaction. This is just horrific.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:10 am
So, who’s against the death penalty now? Eh?
June 10th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Damn,this makes me so happy that I don’t live in Iran any longer. I’m more angry at the women that allow things like this to happen than with the men. Cause surely they’ve suffered some abuse too, they should be able to do something. Even though it is hard. Very informative list.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Well. That was personally the most sobering and depressing list I’ve ever read on the ‘Verse. The Bride Kidnapping practices were completely unknown to me, and though I’ve read about it before, the fact that families commit “honor killings” against victims of sexual abuse is just mind boggling.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:18 am
sorry Bob, not I. When we have a perfect judicial system that doesn’t favor the rich and we have a device that insures no falsely accused will be punish AND when politics are removed from the process, I may consider it.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:18 am
So what do we think are proper punishments for the people who commit these atrocities? I’m thinking maybe public buggering with a pumice stone. Follow that up with castration…with a hammer. That sounds fair.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:21 am
It makes me ill. Words cannot describe the sorrow I feel that these practices are still around in our “civilized” society.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:23 am
This list is gonna “haunt” me for some time…
June 10th, 2008 at 7:25 am
what´s wrong with the world! I just wish evil around the world would stop and that we all could live free and happy… a girl can dream can´t she?
June 10th, 2008 at 7:27 am
greensweetshoes: Not these girls..
June 10th, 2008 at 7:28 am
In the picture for #7, why does the woman in the background look so damn happy??
June 10th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Joel ~ I saw a documentary on it once and I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. As with all of the practices on this list, it’s hard to comprehend unless you exerience these cultures. I fear these things. We are all responsible for, at the very least, a basic awareness of what our fellow humans are enduring.
And I whole-heartedly agree, it’s inconceivable that women perpetuate these atrocities against their fellow women. Especially FGM.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Toxic ~ no one from the Khmer Rouge was ever held accountable. nothing would surprise me.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:37 am
I agree with Randall. When I saw the title I expected it to be filled with gore from Afghanistan and the likes. It’s an eye-opener to see that such stuff happens everywhere in the world including developed countries like Canada,Sweden,Germany,etc.
Thank You Rushfan for this great list.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Toxic – Do you have a refrence for this? The Wiki article on Dyncorp makes no mention of this.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:39 am
#8 – My 10 inch vegetable has caused third degree burns to numerous virgins
June 10th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Thanks, Harsha. I actually could have gone on, but researching this stuff was very depressing, as you can imagine. I would have put more data on the sexual slave trade, but stats are hard to come by because it is such a huge industry and it affects so very, very many countries.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:44 am
great list rushfan, superb job, it must have been extremely emotional to compile, as a man i dont know if i could have done it and kept my feelings in check in the narrative as well as you did, you have my utmost respect.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:46 am
AnotherEngine: She may be a member of the girl’s family who supports the marriage she will be forced into.
Wally: Please keep you inappropriate and immature comments for ebaums, they don’t belong here.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:48 am
dangorironhide : stop laughing then
June 10th, 2008 at 7:49 am
I am touched by the responses to my list. It is extremely emotional for me as a woman and a mother of a baby daughter. I honestly in my soul feel an obligation to do something for these women (and children) but like many people, I feel helpless. What can be done? I don’t know. But once you know about these things, you can’t say you don’t. It’s a start.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Wally: I would be laughing if it was funny. Your comment isn’t.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:54 am
“Canada, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, United Kingdom and the United States.”
Honor killings take place in these countries?!
June 10th, 2008 at 7:54 am
Excellent and sobering list. Good to remind us all of how lucky we are.
Unfortunately people bring their culture with them wherever they go. That is why there are incidences of FGM, honor killings and the like all over the world, even in western countries.
The best way to help these women is through education. Many of these people know no other way of living. It may be uncomfortable to acknowledge that in this day and age we have people living a life of ignorance, submission, and superstition; but it is true. We all share the shame.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Great list, well compiled. Im a man, and this was a very emotional and difficult list to read. :*(
June 10th, 2008 at 8:01 am
rushfan you ask what cane be done? you are doing a huge service to women in these situations by educating the readers of this site. Education is the best weapon against these abuses, education can be elightening but can also be depressing and even dangerous, but id rather know something and be disturbed about it, that not know at all.. To paraphrase Edmund Burke “All it will take for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing”
June 10th, 2008 at 8:03 am
This list makes me want to flush multiculturalism and “inter-cultural understanding” down the drain more than I already do. I would like to hear some proponent of political correctness and multicultural universalism justify these atrocities under the guise of “understanding” and “culture respect.” There is no room for political correctness when women are getting maimed and burned alive. Some actions are just wrong, plain and simple.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Mom424 – No, we DO NOT all share the shame. The propagating parties of these horrific acts own the shame.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Though I had heard, or rather read, of most of these horrors before, the addition of actual photographs, taken as the event happens in most case, appalls me even more!
I can’t begin to imagine what goes through the mind of the victim as the fear and pain envelopes them. I’m quite sure I don’t want to know.
As to those who practice these evil atrocities (yes, I know that’s redundant, but this is so overwhelming it’s deserved), I can only hope that some day they will have to answer for their actions.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Flgh – when countries do not encourage assimilation, 3rd world practices and atrocities are carried over and embed into certain parts of the culture. Once again, I lambast the obsession with multiculturalism – it has gone from a doctrine of understanding and education, to a mantra of moral relativism and “looking the other way.” The only way to root out these disgusting acts and all other reprehensible aspects of other cultures is to demand assimilation, not pandering and bowing to the cultural divides.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:11 am
You neglected to mention the 20% of American women have been physically assaulted by partners. That equates to well over 20 million women being victims of domestic abuse…do these ‘abuses’ only count when they’re happening in other ‘backwards’ cultures? This seems more like an attempt to take a patronizing, stereoptypical view at non-western cultures to make yourself feel better. You don’t understand these cultures fully, clearly, as all of the items on this list have been copied from wikipedia. I don’t know about these cultures much either, but thats why im not judging them based on an internet encyclopaedia and a questionable moral highground.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:13 am
@mflo yes we do, unfortunately. Being oblivious to such problems across the world is in itself a type of crime.Merely being educated isn’t going to stop these atrocities. We need to actually stand up and help our fellow women to stand up to horrific acts like these.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:15 am
mflo; Yes we do, as a progressive society, for being so smug and self-serving in our attitudes to the rest of the world. How much has the west done to increase education, raise the standard of living in the rest of the world? Now compare it to what we could have done. How many schools, wells, and the like could have been funded with say a tenth of the American defense budget? That is my point.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:15 am
“Between 1993 and 2001, there were 109 “honour killings” in Britain”
Source: UK Telegraph
“Sarah Said, 17, and Amina Said, 18, were found fatally shot Jan. 1 in their father’s taxi at a Las Colinas hotel. Family and friends have said Yaser Said was angry because the girls were dating non-Muslim boys.”
Source: Fort Worth Star Telegram
“Slain schoolgirl Aqsa Parvez will be buried tomorrow” “The 16-year-old Mississauga girl died Monday after she was strangled in her Longhorn Trail home after quarreling with family for months over her desire to shed the hijab, the traditional Muslim headscarf.”
Source: Toronto Star
““Canada, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, United Kingdom and the United States.”
Honor killings take place in these countries?!”
Yes, they do take place in these countries.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:16 am
These things don’t happen in America, but of course we American men get blamed for it anyway, judging by at least SOME of the previous posters.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:18 am
mflo; All the incidences of FGM and honor killing that have happened here have been prosecuted. The practice is not excused or condoned here. Not to say that the punishment is harsh enough always, but that is true of most violent crime in this country.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:32 am
It makes me sick to my stomach to think that the people who do these things are still considered human.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Slightly off topic here, but highly relevant.
I always thought that all suicide bombers,etc were just @$$holes and scums on this planet who deserve to die. But my perception of this problem changed entirely when I was asked to do a project on suicide bombers a few years ago.
This story is a true documented story that I came across and I’ll paste the link if I can find it.
A suicide bomber failed in his attempt to blow up a US convoy in Iraq at the start of the Iraq war. Instead he was captured and held by the US troops. A reporter managed to gain access and coaxed him to tell his side of the story.
This bomber was barely in his twenties.He said that during the first Gulf war, when he was barely 8 or 9 US troops invaded his village. All male members who offered resistance were shot. His mother and three sisters were raped in front of him and his younger brother.
He says he was extremely traumatized from the experience and has lived alone for nearly his entire teen life, until he was taken in by a rebel group(a jihad propogating group) and was trained in arms. He himself volunteered for the suicide mission, as he wanted revenge against the Americans.
I know that this is off-topic but I wrote this in response to all those people saying that other countries are in no way responsible for atrocities that happen in these countries.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Great list Rushfan. I am glad that many of these are brought out in the open.
Misc.: I am not sure what we need to understand of a culture to accept killing of other people? A questionable moral highground? Interesting. I am sure you will be fine going to live in one of these countries as a woman. The abuse in America is very valid, but it is also not acceptable in the US. These are practiced, accepted, and encouraged in these countries.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:40 am
It’s amazing how much we complain on a daily basis about this and that. Bag traffic, a poorly made salad, a day that drags on too slowly. Last night I was complaining about not having brownies – I was really annoyed about it. Puts things into perspective.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Bag=bad
June 10th, 2008 at 8:45 am
No brownies? That sucks!
June 10th, 2008 at 8:45 am
rushfan: I meant to include earlier, but was too shaken…Fabulous List.
Educational, emotionally wrenching, and while not offering any solutions, at least open the door for people to start considering solutions. This is a List that deserves consideration for 2008 MVL, if there is one.
If there isn’t, I’ll put it on mine.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Harsha – Even if you can find said documentary, I would need a lot more proof that this incident happened than the word of a terrorist.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:02 am
Re: misc – “do these ‘abuses’ only count when they’re happening in other ‘backwards’ cultures?”
No, but the reaction of the societies where these atrocities occur do ‘count’.
“An Iraqi teenage girl was brutally murdered by her father in an “honour killing” after she fell in love with a British soldier in Basra.”
“When her father learned she had been seen speaking to a foreigner he rushed home and butchered her, strangling and stabbing her while screaming that he was “cleansing his honour”.
“He was arrested, but Iraqi police took no action. His wife has since left him and is in hiding.”
“Because her family considered her impure, Rand was given only a simple burial. Her uncles spat in her grave to show their disgust.”
Source: Daily Mail UK
June 10th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I read nearly all of the comments, and not one that I read mentioned anyone being angry, just depressed.
Well, I’m angry! I hate that these things go on, and while I can be respectful of another’s cultural beliefs, women are human beings too, and deserving of love and respect, not hatred and abuse.
Until enough of us get angry enough, things like this will continue.
Wally, only idiots who are lacking in that area of the body make comments like yours. If you feel the need to compensate for that lack, go buy a sports car, or jump off of a very high, steep cliff. Don’t bring your ignorance here. It’s unwanted.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Very sobering list. But certainly needed, as I believe most of us here were not fully aware of these acts and the widespread acceptance of them.
It kills me that my country’s government turns their backs and wallets away from these atrocities and yet finances killing in the name of democracy.
I definitely believe we are all guilty because I’m sure many human beings are bought and sold here in the US.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:07 am
misc.:
Please. There’s a big difference between appreciating and understanding the intricacies of another culture–such as why some people around the world think Americans smile too much, or why it’s considered the height of rudeness to eat with one’s left hand in much of the Near East, and so on–but there’s a point where “multi-culturalism” becomes nothing more than a mealy-mouthed excuse for not taking a stand… probably because it requires too much backbone on the part of some of us.
The real trick to being culturally aware and sophisticated is to be able to make the necessary and needed judgement calls while still keeping one’s finger digging away at the mote in one’s own eye. The West is not pristine and blameless about many things. But that doesn’t mean we can’t call out a Wrong when we see one, regardless of who’s committing it.
Cleaning up our own act is always a good thing. But it shouldn’t stop us from standing up and demanding that things change around the world as well.
Despite governments and national boundaries, we live in a world community that must have certain standards. Unfortunately, of course, there’s no way to really establish such standards, let alone enforce them. All we have left, then, is protest and education. We can, as people and governments, continue to beat at the doors of other cultures, hoping that gradually, they come to change the gross injustices which they allow.
Of course, this has the “danger” of coming back around to bite us in the ass. We must be prepared to admit to our own faults and injustices, and to change them. But just because I stole my neighbor’s weed whacker the other day, that won’t stop me from turning him in when he beats his wife and kids.
I should of course return the weed whacker and steal no more. And it’s my responsibility to do so, and to understand why it’s wrong. But don’t tell me that there’s something I need to “understand” when I see the other guy hitting his wife. No no no. We all know wrongs when we see them, regardless of how tainted we ourselves may be in other ways.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Wow, what a heavy and very sobering list! Thank you rushfan for creating this list. Education is the first step!
It is a sick atrocity that these kinds of things are allowed and actually done around the world in so many countries. Damn them all to Hell that think these actions are justified and ok! Though there are also many people working at putting a stop to this – good for them, I hope we can all do something!
So, where do we go from here?
June 10th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Do these honor killings seriously take place in the U.S?
I mean, I can understand in some middle eastern countries where the government doesn’t give a rats ass about the women, but in the U.S that’s murder, and you can get life in prison.
Someone enlighten me?
June 10th, 2008 at 9:16 am
arvaamita: The problem with trying to do something in countries that practice the above (and I think the genital mutilation and the slavery are the worst and are absolutely sick and disgusting), is that these countries don’t want change. We can bitch and moan about it all we want on this side of the world. We can even show up and try to take women away, but ultimately the only way we can deal with the barbaric, disgusting, vile practices these people do is to go to war. None of us want that. We’re not willing to go to war to fight the subjugation of women in other countries.
Even economic sanctions, UN embargoes, etc. will do nothing. You might get the government to make things illegal, but you can’t get that government to enforce that law or get the people to stop doing it.
We live in a screwed up world and a lot of the people in it do evil things and think it is right. Brutality has no excuses.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Shadow: I already own a sports car thankyou.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Scar: There are many immigrants from these other countries who have brought their beliefs and customs with them. So yes they do happen in UK, US, etc.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:40 am
SMD:
No, SMD, we don’t need to go to war. That’s George Bush-talk. The alternative is vigorous engagement with these cultures–right now they isolate themselves from us and we from them. Over time, exchanges, education, information—these things can go a long way to changing things.
No, it’s not guaranteed to work, and is in fact more likely to fail. But war is no guarantee either, and is equally likely to fail. Some ideas and changes in ideas can’t be imposed. They have to worm their way in and undermine the injustices they’re meant to replace over time. It’s often the only way.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Here in the US it used to be legal to beat your wife. (Not to mention *own* another human being, but that’s another list)It took women organizing, with the support of men, to get laws changed. The civil rights movements (race, gender) are success stories here. However, they (and we) have the *right* to protest, to organize, to speak out, to be against things. In these other countries they don’t have that right. At all. If you live in a burqua, what are your options? If you are valued so little that your life has no meaning, what do you do?
June 10th, 2008 at 9:49 am
hello.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Interesting, if awful, list.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:56 am
dangorironhide, Shadow: School is out. It is ever the amusement of children to enter the discussions of adults and interject amusing, whimsical comments. (read: trolls) Pay them no mind.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:09 am
I am very angry that these types of things are still allowed to happen in any country. It offends me as a woman, period. I can’t begin to vocalize what I would like to say about these practises, but women have been devalued throughout past times and I feel very lucky to have been born in the United States. Things aren’t always fair to the feminine point of view here, but at least I can freely speak out about it without fear of being persecuted.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Well done rushfan your comments at #66 show why we have to tollerate idiots like Wally although if someone want’s to ban him from this site I won’t argue on his behalf
June 10th, 2008 at 10:24 am
How disturbing. This list did bring me to tears. It’s so unfair that these women were born into cultures like these. As a fortunate girl born into a fortunate culture it’s important to get the education needed and then work hard to see these things stopped.
Ignore Wally, he just wants attention. He can go get it somewhere else.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:26 am
A teacher of mine once told me that humanity has in it an altruism gene, because being a good, cooperative person is a lot better for your survival than being a wayward jerk.
I think, though, that most important gene is the self-preservation gene, the one that allows us to put our happiness above anything else, even at the cost of another’s suffering. If it doesn’t hurt us, we can ignore it.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:32 am
a depressing and eye-opening list.
it made me very angry, and it made me think of the atrocities that MEN suffer throughout the world (some at the hands of women!)
*false accusations of rape (feign consent when it happens, then cry foul in the morning)
*using pregnancy to trap men financially
*drafted into war at a young or inexperienced age
*family court systems designed to favor the mother (alimony, palimony, parental rights)
*death for the sake of science, exploration, politics, war, etc. because women are deemed too fragile and unable to participate
*health issues caused by workplace stress of being sole breadwinner
*forced to stay behind in burning buildings and sinking ships
Men have taken the role of leader and protector ever since cavemen hunted while cavewomen farmed, and have flourished. Our reward? A nagging wife, early death and a spoiled/protected family.
Equal rights = equal responsibilities
June 10th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Speechless doesn’t quite cover it.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:37 am
copperdragon – mate I think you missed the point somewhere along the line
June 10th, 2008 at 10:37 am
lets break out the great global tally-sheet, and see which gender has suffered more.
i realize that the items on the women’s list are involuntary for them. Men suffer involuntary atrocities as well.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:39 am
oh – and men suffer genital mutilation in the name of religion as well. it’s called circumcision, and its done before the baby can even voice the words “no”.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:39 am
i bet the vast majority of people who read with will be depressed by what they read yet will do absolutely nothing about it. they will go on with their day & forget about the atrocities that are commonplace in some countries. if only half the people who read this did something, even something small, to help these women the world would be a better place. like AlphabetFish said: I think, though, that most important gene is the self-preservation gene, the one that allows us to put our happiness above anything else, even at the cost of another’s suffering. If it doesn’t hurt us, we can ignore it.
& that’s what most people will do; ignore these women’s suffering.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:41 am
PT – i got the point. i’m making what’s called a “counterpoint”. it’s used in debates.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Good work rushfan.
It’s difficult to answer the “what can be done” question. Prevention is obvious, but from a personal standpoint, I feel somewhat helpless, having to go about my day with this all on mind. Atrosities, the world over can be overwhelming to any compassionate soul.
Unjust crimes and abuse to woman and children is aborrent.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:46 am
After seeing this list, there has to be something said about Western Civilization being superior.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:47 am
“@mflo yes we do, unfortunately. Being oblivious to such problems across the world is in itself a type of crime…” – Harsha
Harsha, being oblivious to a crime is not a crime (no mens rea). To be held responsible for the actions of others in other countries is a rather strange concept, especially when we have no diplomatic ties with that country (I am aware these actions are taking place in countries that we do have ties with). Even being aware of the atrocities does not place shame or blame on non-practitioners. But there is responsibility placed on those who know of the atrocities. And for those who do not act, the shame he or she bears is the shame of cowardice and weak moral fiber, NOT the shame of committing atrocities (there is a gradient of shame apparently).
“How much has the west done to increase education, raise the standard of living in the rest of the world?” – Mom424
Mom424: these are cultural issues, not “the US is not spending enough money” issue. The US spends billions of tax payer money on foreign aid. Money and education are not the “silver bullet,” I don’t think there is a silver bullet. Things are not so simple. Furthermore, I am having trouble with your condemnation of the US as self serving in light of this issue. Do you advocate an invasion to police and eliminate these practices? Do you suggest that the US impose western ideals on these countries and areas that crop these atrocities?
All in all, the only shame that can be shared is that of human fallibility and quick resurgence into barbarism. But to be held responsible for these specific acts on the sole grounds that they merely exist, is not valid reason for shame.
Now, with that said, I think there is a responsibility for capable countries to eradicate tyrants and disgusting practices, but not out of shame – - out of goodness and the desire to eradicate human suffering.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:47 am
copperdragon – if your offering to play devils advocate that’s fine but if you truely believe what your saying then I think your totaly off the mark. As a bloke I would gladly give up my life for my family without thinking that my wife should have taken on the role
June 10th, 2008 at 10:56 am
wow, and i was so happy before this list, damn
June 10th, 2008 at 10:56 am
copperdragon:
Oh man, are you stepping in it.
Listen, to begin with, circumcision of males (in the West) is done largely for reasons of hygiene. There are arguments against it, but for the most part the practice has remained supportable as there are statistics indicating that, among other things, it reduces instances of cancer and STDs to some extent. It’s done to infants (though some societies outside of the West perform it on adolescents) because the trauma to them is theoretically slight and is quickly forgotten (I can’t remember mine, thankfully).
Circumcision of females, however, is most often done to A) adolescent girls and B) not for reasons of hygiene, but in order to compromise or even rob all sensations of pleasure. Which is simply a matter of subjugation, humiliation, and dominance.
So there’s no comparison.
True, yes, men suffer. All human beings suffer. Stupidly, we continually make EACH OTHER suffer, and have been doing so for thousands of years. We monkeys are so smart. But let’s not be disingenuous about it. As a species we subscribe to war (however wrong it may be) as a means of settling our differences. It’s godawful, but men submit to it not simply at the point of a rifle, but because they see it as a means of demonstrating their courage and honor. Even when they get a taste of reality on the battlefield, they don’t simply go running at the horror of it–largely because the male psyche is such that, when grouped together, men would rather face horrors than be seen as cowards. Is this “suffering” or are we men just stupid like that? Well of course it’s both… but the fact is that we still have some measure of “choice” in it. As we do with many of the things we have to go through and/or that we bring upon ourselves. (Nobody forces us to get married and make families and then go out to support them–and many men do end up shirking this duty. And duty, while often insufferable, is again a matter of choice).
Women, however, have no choice in the sufferings outlined here. Are men at the mercy of women? Rarely. But women are always at our mercy, physically or otherwise. And it’s that unfairness that this list is addressing.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:58 am
This is a very sobering list. Thank you for putting it together rushfan.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Copperdragon- A. None of those are on par with this list and B. It sounds like you’ve been a victim of more than one. Counseling, perhaps?
June 10th, 2008 at 11:06 am
The STOP HONORCIDE! campaign was launched on Mother’s Day 2008. The goal of the campaign is to prosecute honorcides to the fullest extent of the law. We want honorcide to be classified as a hate crime and we advocate for every existing hate crime legislation to be amended to include honorcide.
http://www.reformislam.org/honorcide/
June 10th, 2008 at 11:11 am
next time i hear a woman complain about something im going to punch them in the head
June 10th, 2008 at 11:19 am
I’m glad to hear of an organization dedicated to stopping honorcides. I almost listed Sharia Law on this list, but it is quite wide-ranging and actually can be brutal for both men and women, as well as children. (stoning, cutting off hands/feet as punishment for theft, etc.)
There will have to be a second list, sadly. Rape is a crime against humanity and often used as a tactic in war. Female infanticide, common in China. Being a lesbian in Iran is punishable by death. I could go on.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:22 am
One thing we can do as a nation is allow women protected status and asylum in the US from these countries. Sadly, we can’t save them all. And they couldn’t all escape if they tried.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:29 am
in regards to #2 on the list. my church has been working with a group called “love 146″ who’s mission is to end the child sex slave trade that goes on in many countries.
go here for more info
http://www.love146.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=21460
you may think that, because this is such an enormous problem, there is nothing that one person can do. this is defeatist, childish thinking. choose one of the atrocities on this list and get involved. demonstrating your disgust by posting on a site where everyone agrees with you is the most that we comfortable, safe, well to do people will usually do. God forgive us of our shameful laziness.
let’s change the pattern of the world where there are enough deplorable things out there to make a list.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:31 am
copperdragon: If you think men are so hard done by, instead of getting everyone fired about it in this list, why not submit your own list? Mind you, if it has similar gems to the ones you’ve already used – equating male and female genital mutilation?! – it’d never get published, I guess.
On another note – every time I hear about people from the US/Australia/etc. saying ‘The blood is on our hands’, it annoys me. It’s NOT. It’s that sort of cultural imperialism that’s screwing up everything. You can’t just go and change things you don’t think are right. I abhor every one of these practices. If there was a switch that you could hit that would stop these things happening, I would hit it. But it’s that sort of elitist attitude that gets other societies offside.
You cannot just barge into a country to fix something that offends you (even if the offense is sickening, as many of these are). It creates far more problems than it stops; and then all of your war atrocities against women occur, so really, you’re not helping them. Do I have a solution? No, and obviously if I had one, minds far greater than mine would have hit upon the same solution and fixed these problems.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:31 am
PT – a little of both, but consider this: would your wife lay down her life in defense of yours? would she be required to by society? if not then you (as a man) are suffering and being oppressed. you’re been reduced to nothing more than a disposable money-making shield.
Randall:
Both are mutilations of the genitals against the will of the child.
Yes, men are “stupid” like that. But we’ve been raised to be that way by a manipulative society that says we must be in the line of fire, or in the fighter jet, or in the coal mine.
If we survive (big IF), when we come home, society says “have you protected your family today? have you helped raise your children?” if not, the woman can claim emotional abuse and society takes your home, money, and children.
She goes out and looks for another man to “take care of her”.
Did he make the cut? nope, but here’s a few million more waiting to get between your legs for the sake of being your shield and your bank.
Or she says “Don’t want to sleep with me? Fine, I’ll just say you did, you pay the court fees, and take the paternity test. if you survive, you’re tainted. if not, you pay support, even if its not yours.”
“or better yet, I’ll just say you raped me. then you can go to jail and still pay fees and support on someone else’s child”.
Atrocious? yes.
Or the military says “you survived? good, get back out there and lead the others…as in get closer to the front.”
If you don’t survive, oh well, we’ve got millions more gullible morons waiting behind you. and we’ll give your wife some money so she can survive until she finds someone else.
Atrocious? yes.
Trapped in a burning building? tough. you stay put while the baby-makers run.
Face it – MEN as a gender get screwed physically, financially and emotionally every day, in every civilized country, in the name of society, for the sake of women.
I would never wish the horrors in today’s list on any woman (or man), but let’s not forget the other side.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:34 am
disc ~ thanks for the info. there’s really no need to call people defeatist, childish or lazy. just reading this list is a big step for a lot of people.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Just a few observations on copperdragon’s comments:
*false accusations of rape (feign consent when it happens, then cry foul in the morning)
– many women never see their rapist brought to justice
*using pregnancy to trap men financially
– being ABANDONED by men when they become pregnant
*drafted into war at a young or inexperienced age
– in the days when it was mandatory; today both men and women freely choose to enroll in the army
*family court systems designed to favor the mother (alimony, palimony, parental rights)
– women who, despite court orders etc, STILL receive no financial support for their kids; with regards to alimony, many women have made a choice, either by themselves or with their partners, to stay home to provide a loving and supporting home for their kids (i.e. made a sacrifice); it is a very real situation when a woman finds out one day that her husband is leaving her and she must now go back into the workforce. I think she is deserving to half his money when he received a clean house, a cooked meal and well cared-for kids in return.
*death for the sake of science, exploration, politics, war, etc. because women are deemed too fragile and unable to participate
– check the list on Top 10 Scientists Killed or Injured by Their Experiments: http://listverse.com/science/top-10-scientists-killed-or-injured-by-their-experiments/#more-9638; you will find a couple women who, not only DIED as a result of their experimentation, but whose sacrifices led to scientific breakthroughs.
*health issues caused by workplace stress of being sole breadwinner
– single mothers that are the sole bread-winners AND care-givers to their kids; even married working mothers experience this to some extent; they come home from work and then have the kids to deal with.
*forced to stay behind in burning buildings and sinking ships
– are you for real?
June 10th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Kiribub – ah, yes “counseling” – the art of teaching men to be more like women (express your emotions, be more caring, communicate better)
I wonder what its called when you teach women to be more like men? War? Life? Society? Business? Manual Labor? Science? Industry? Exploration?
June 10th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Wow…I suddenly really appreciate living in a country like Ireland, I know how lucky I am.
Some of that stuff is actually sick…how can people be so deluded and horrible? It makes you lose faith in humanity.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Copperdragon- If that’s how you feel, you really do need some help. Good luck with that.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Just in case anyone is interested, these were on a list of sites my activist friend sends us from time to time -
stophonorkillings.com/index.php
http://www.amnesty.org/en/campaigns/stop-violence-against-women
I don’t mean to minimize amnesty internationals other campaigns. you should check out their whole website! But this this was a women themed list…
http://www.humantrafficking.org/
June 10th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Mel
-many women are never even raped, just sober in the morning
-”you say you’re rich? of course i’m on the pill”
-enroll? yes. serve equally? no. women fighter pilots anyone? tank commanders? front line infantry? thought not.
-and if the woman leaves the man, she STILL expects the money. Women rarely have to pay (kids, job or not).
-two out of 10? 20% is failure in any test. call me when its 50/50 or better.
-i will give props to any woman who rises to the top of her profession and can still care for their kids. they are finally on par with what is expected of MEN.
-yes. Women drink for free? Men pay for dinner? Open the car door? Valentines? and you want me to stay behind and burn?
June 10th, 2008 at 11:48 am
What they need is another Emmeline Pankhurst or Rosa Parks…
June 10th, 2008 at 11:51 am
copperdragon:
Come now. Now you’re just whining.
Circumcision:
Both are mutilations of the genitals? Hardly. The purposes are usually VERY different. I pointed that out. Ignoring my point doesn’t help your case, it just shows that you have no argument. Boys are circumcised *largely* for reasons of hygiene, though, yes, there are also reasons of religion (but many of these ALSO relate to hygiene). Girls are circumcised as a means of controlling them and reducing, to some extent, their humanity. So get off this one, pal. You ain’t lookin’ good by trying to argue this point.
And against the will of the child? Sure, yes. But knowing what I know, statistically, about the added health benefits of circumcision, and that it is done *relatively* painlessly to me as an infant, when I will forget the trauma in short order–I’d opt for it.
As for your argument about men being at the mercy of a manipulative society–do you forget that WE are the ones who build these societies? Men, historically, have been the ones in charge–not women. Are you saying that women are to blame for men going off to war? Well no one’s arguing that some lunkheaded women have encouraged us to do some from time to time–but come off it. Men go to war for their OWN reasons, not because we feel we have to for the sake of women.
The women cited in this list, however, DO suffer on account of men. Because of men, and at the HANDS of men. So your argument just falls apart there.
As to protecting and providing for families–yes, this is a duty that ALL parents share… and yes, men have borne the lion’s share of this. But you are painting a chimera here. WOMEN bear children–a difficult and miserable experience in some ways (I’m sure most women would say also beautiful and sublime in others). Women have also not just sat back on their ass while men worked–back in the day when such demarcations existed, women managed the home, raised the children–while men went out and made the money and did the protecting and providing. A separate, but largely equal arrangement. You can’t argue, then, that the suffering of men, in this instance, equates with the sort of *uncalled-for* and UNJUST suffering of the women in this list. Get it? So again, your point falls apart.
As for men suffering occasionally at the hands of manipulative women who lie and cheat? Sure, it happens. Happens to women in different ways, also, at the hands of men. Again, we’re even. And in fact, I’d still argue that women have it far worse. Yup, it’s our burden and our curse to try to impress them so we can get laid or find a mate. Sucks, I agree. But sucks to be them, too, copper, because they’re the ones who can get pregnant and are then stuck with it. And if we walk away, they’re truly stuck. So it’s no wonder they’re choosey and sometimes turn manipulative about it. We’re a manipulative and nasty species sometimes. But again—it isn’t something exclusive to ONE sex, and it DOESN’T equate to the things outlined in this list.
The point isn’t that life doesn’t suck for all of us. It does. But women suffer FAR more at the hands of men in rigid, male-dominated societies (in particular) than men suffer because of or on account of women the world over.
June 10th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Kiribub – thanks. going through torture, er, marriage counseling even as we speak. She makes more than I do (which i applaud her for) and our kids are grown. Guess who’s gonna be paying alimony? Not her. Guess who gets the house? not me. Guess who’s living in a one-bedroom shack? not her.
Wait, “she earned it” you say? “she makes more”
Try that as a man in any court and see what happens.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Randall – just trying to point out both sides.
good luck keeping that glass half full. I’m sure your wife (if you were brave enough to get married) appreciates your money, protection and sacrifice. I’m sure you’re an expert at emotions, communication and feeling.
Can she match you on all of those things? society says she doesn’t have to, and if not, you just have to suck it up. sound oppressive? it sure did to me.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Everytime I go to make a point, I find Randall has already made it better. Except for the idea that men bear the lions share of protecting their children. Unless you live in a situation where wild animals and rival villages will actually attack, women generally have the responsibility of keeping children safe. It is primarily women who opt to stay home and care for the children, though some men do as well. They keep their children safe from modern dangers, everything from teaching them about strangers to keeping the baby away from the draino.
Protection is not always about being on the front lines, it is also about making sure the baby isn’t crawling towards the top of the staircase. A father may be the one with the baseball bat investigating the weird noise downstairs (and let’s face it, my fiance has 10 inches and 50 pounds on me, he is going to do more damage), but a mother deals with daily dangers. If dad is at work, mom is making sure junior doesn’t fall in the pool.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Randall – also, if men are so busy looking after the women, um, who’s looking out for the men? I, for one, am.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
P.S. A childhood friend of my mother’s was killed 2 years ago pushing a neighbor’s child out from in front of a UPS truck. The kid was tiny, so the driver couldn’t see him when he ran out right in front of it. This is why the “protection” thing caught my eye.
Also interesting – more women than men live in poverty in the US.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Nelia – I understand what everyone’s saying. I’m just putting the shoe on the other foot.
In your scenario, when the men come home, they STILL have to protect the kids from danger. does that mean the mom then goes off to work at 5pm? if so, its “poor thing, she has to work AND care for her family”. Just like the man has to.
If your fiance is investigating the noise, armed with a bat, what are you doing? hiding? or are you covering his backside with a knife or gun? he’s protecting you, who’s protecting him?
June 10th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
nelia – and more men are posted on graves and war memorials
June 10th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Copper – I am simply pointing out that my fiance has a physical advantage over me, but it is unlikely that someone is going to break into our house. It is much more likely to be some mundane but sadly common danger than a child will run into.
And no, I would not be under the bed upstairs. In the unlikely scenario that this happens, I would expect hubby to be keeping the guy out of the kid’s rooms if possible (as again, he is bigger than I am and more likely to succeed) while I call 911. Once the police were on their way, I would certainly be there to back him up. I can’t imagine not helping to defend the people I love. Unless I had a good weapon, I can’t see being too effective though. If I was stronger, or a better fighter, than my husband I would expect the roles to be reversed. It is simply logic. Not gender inequality.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Copper, What is it that you want? More memorials? More credit? More women to suffer and die so you can feel better about the fact that men also suffer and die? The main point you’re missing is the heroic things real men do is by choice. A real man willingly gives his life for his country. His wife. His children. I for one, would gladly give my life for my daughter. My husband. My country. And I’m a woman, dude.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
A powerful list, chastening to read.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
copperdragon:
Ha ha… you’re a bitter little piece of toast, aren’t you, copper?
I HAD a wife, yes. We’re divorced. Neither one of us appreciated the other much, except sexually and in terms of parenting. She’s a good mother, I’m a fantastic father. The failure of the marriage was as much my fault as it was hers. These things happen. Money? Eh. We were both bad with that.
Silly though–you apparently got yourself into a bad situation and now you’re angry towards women as a gender. I know the feeling, trust me. You want my theory/opinion on this? Being a man means sucking it up and looking around you and realizing that you’ve still got it good in oh so many ways. And, yes, if you got cheated by a woman, or bested by her–well, those are the breaks. Ask yourself what the old-time tough guys would do. Not take it out on her–that’s what a boy does, not a man. Those guys would simply walk away and suck it up and do their manly thing. I’m not saying I’m Robert Mitchum or Lee Marvin–far from it, I’m a freakin’ sissy–but man those guys are my role model. And they might have played bitter characters, but they took it and toughed it out and that’s all.
Sucks, and it’s unfair–but the stuff that happens to women *and little girls* on this list has NO equivalency in what you or any other man goes through in the examples you’ve cited. None. They’re criminal, they’re disgusting, they’re repugnant. Far, far worse than getting our noses bloodied in divorce or failed relationships.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
And just to go back a bit – female genital mutilation has no health benefits and prevents most women from experiencing pleasure during sex. It is designed in part to prevent women from cheating (because they can’t enjoy sex, why should they cheat). Circumcision doesn’t prevent a man from enjoying sex. Even if some will argue that the health benefits are bull or that it minimizes pleasure, no parent does it to their child because they believe it will do that. Unlike FGM, where it is a large part of the point.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Nelia:
“Everytime I go to make a point, I find Randall has already made it better.”
Hey, no problem. I do the talkin’ and arguin’ around here, so you *don’t have to.* It’s my service to *you,* the customer.
—-
as to men doing the lion’s share of the protecting, etc.—I was speaking *historically.* i.e., that men IN THE PAST had borne the lion’s share of that burden. I thought I said that, but perhaps I didn’t express myself well. (Well no, that’s unlikely–probably you just missed it.
)
June 10th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
This is disgusting. What separates the humans from the animals again? When I read about these atrocities I begin to wonder if we’re just fooling ourselves. That we’re just like any other animal in the world, possibly worse…
June 10th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
NestorV: some people in Western Civilization support that crimes.
Like in Turkmenistan, where some Western corporations promote a sectarian dictatorship and its book, the Rukhnama.
Sad but true list.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
No, i understood what you meant about the lion’s share. i wasn’t really trying to argue with you (though i probably put it badly) I was simply trying to expand on the point into modern times. Though I would say women historically have died for their children, even if they couldn’t pick up that big heavy sword
June 10th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
The STOP HONORCIDE! campaign was launched on Mother’s Day 2008. The goal of the campaign is to prosecute honorcides to the fullest extent of the law.
Muslims Against Sharia – where are you from that “honor killings” are not already prosecuted to the full extent of the law? After all, murder is murder.
We want honorcide to be classified as a hate crime and we advocate for every existing hate crime legislation to be amended to include honorcide.
What is the significance, from the perspective of your organisation, of having honor killings classified as “hate crimes”?
I’m just curious…
June 10th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
kiwiboi:
I’m no lawyer, but… in the US, a “hate crime” is, unless I’m mistaken, the provenance of the Federal government. Therefore:
Say you have a situation where, oh… bunch of white rednecks lynch a black man. Happened many times. That’s murder. Murder is the provenance, except in special circumstances, of the State government. BUT… the white guys and all the other white guys around them–including the local police—conspire to hide the evidence, etc.—and the killers get off scot-free. Also happened, many times. BUT… it can be established that this was a HATE CRIME (and so it was) and so in steps the Feds, who aren’t going to be party to covering up the crime–and you get a conviction of the killers on this basis. Nope, they didn’t get convicted for murder–but they still go to prison and hopefully whilst there, they get pounded in the ass regularly.
HENCE, with “honorcide,” same thing–if you can’t get the evidence to convict on a MURDER charge (which is also very hard, requiring a more difficult-to-prove level of evidence) you can get them on a HATE CRIME. And off they go to PMITA prison, where justice is served.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
note to self… Come back to this list.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Copperdragon, your first couple of comments made pretty good points, in my opinion. Men *have* suffered too, and we should not act as if only women are victims. Not that I even remotely agree with the notion that men have suffered the same amount, but still. I don’t know if you mean to come across that way or not, but the more you comment the more you sound like a woman hater. Do you hate women?
The things you describe do happen, but to make the sweeping decisions you seem to have made is a step backwards.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
very informative and well written list rushfan.
one of my professors is a retired police officer and he shared with the class a story in which a young muslim male murdered his high school aged sister because he suspected she was having premarital sex and when he was arrested he could not understand what was wrong with his act. He told police that he was simply fulfilling his duty as the eldest son and by arresting him the cops were disgracing his culture and the officers replied and im paraphrasing here “well, we’re not in your home country we’re in the United States and by killing someone your disgracing our culture.
it is truly sad that other cultures would kill or disown their daughters and wives because they were the victims of rapes. i cant comprehend that.
it’s like they’re a suspect when they were victimized
June 10th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
very informative and well written list rushfan.
one of my professors is a retired police officer and he shared with the class a story in which a young muslim male murdered his high school aged sister because he suspected she was having premarital sex and when he was arrested he could not understand what was wrong with his act. He told police that he was simply fulfilling his duty as the eldest son and by arresting him the cops were disgracing his culture and the officers replied and im paraphrasing here “well, we’re not in your home country we’re in the United States and by killing someone your disgracing our culture.
it is truly sad that other cultures would kill or disown their daughters and wives because they were the victims of rapes. i cant comprehend that.
it’s like they’re a suspect when they were victimized
June 10th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Randall(s) – I asked, in part, because we (in Britain) recently had a case where a Muslim guy had his daughter killed as an “honor killing”. There was no special treatment (nor need for special treatment) in terms of the justice system – it was murder, plain and simple. Found guilty as charged…received a life term.
The “hate crime” aspect also brought to mind the debate we had here (similarly, I think, in your own Supreme Court) weighing up the benefits of such a classification against attendant freedom of expression/belief liberties. Kind of touching on the “thought crimes” debate.
Re your examples, personally I’m not sure that using the “hate crime” designation as a “Plan B” if a prior conviction isn’t forthcoming is a particularly robust framework…but seeing as you made this point 5 times, I’ll continue to mull it over
June 10th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
something isnt quite right mate
June 10th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
kiwiboi; It isn’t only when there is a failure at the state level that the Hate crime laws come into effect. Sometimes it is a penalty issue as well, for instance; Swastikas painted on synagogues repeatedly. At the local level they would be prosecuted for vandalism, at the federal level they could go to jail. There are other occasions when it is preferable to prosecute at the federal level, I’m just not entirely sure of them; definitely not my area of expertise.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Nelia – physical size only goes so far. a snake can bring down a human. speed, stealth and strategy go a long way. you could be just as formidable as he, if you wanted to.
rushfan – hell, yes! the heroic things men do are not by choice, they’re by necessity because women can’t or won’t. glad to see your willing and able to share the load. when can you start?
randall – i love women as a gender, and as i said before, i’ll give full respect and credit to any woman who pulls her weight as much as a man. i’m just tired of the “protect me, save me, do things for me, what have you done for me lately” attitude.
Women get. Men give. and most of the rules of society are geared towards women getting more and men giving more.
but getting back on topic – i would not wish the listed atrocities on any woman (or man). i presented my list of atrocities visited on men (as a gender)(post #73). As a man, I should not have to suffer in silence any more than any woman should.
just because atrocities on men are different does not make them lesser.
killed is killed, whether by war or honor.
mutilated is mutilated, whether by acid, knife, bullet or burning.
imprisoned is imprisoned, whether by society or individual.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
definitely not my area of expertise.
Mom – mine neither; which is largely why I was interested in hearing the original poster’s (yet to be received) response.
June 10th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
copper you are asking for it:)
can’t say i agree with you but i understand your point…sorta
real heroes don’t committ heroic acts to be honored they just do what is right
June 10th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
commit not committ
June 10th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
thx MPW and K.Inez – at least someone is hearing my point. you don’t have to agree to understand.
and you’re right – “real” heroes (not movie star heroes like Lee Marvin, Randall!) don’t commit heroic acts to be honored. They won’t even ask. But you can bet they’ll remember if they are or not. And its not even for what’s “right”. the young muslim in the story above was doing what he thought was “right”, based on his culture, his society and his upbringing. is he a hero? 9 out of 10 would say no, but it only matters in his mind.
Randall’s movie heroes were allowed to slap women, treat them like inferiors, sleep with and discard them. Hold a baby? never. Cook? not. Cry? can’t. Great heroes! almost on par with the perpetrators of today’s list.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
I had a nice, lovely comment all made up and …. the page wouldn’t display. I get a lot of error messages from this site for some reason.
This does make me appreciate what I have. However, it’s hard to understand that these people view it as a normal behavior and the people who do know it’s horrible feel they’re in the minority and are afraid to speak up. It’s hard to defend yourself when you know you’ll be outnumbered.
However, through education, WE, can collaborate and make an effort to change the practices. Through simple acts such as this – making a list – we can spread knowledge and action. I plan on passing the link to this page all over the web.
I must say – in the comments here, I see a lot of emotional baggage…just for general knowledge here, therapy can really do wonders for people…
I also must say it’s amazing the gender roles people believe in, despite being in a privileged country! The difference is amazing – I grew up in a poor home that didn’t enforce gender roles for the most part. I love saying that my mother served as mom AND dad, protector and all. Despite her small body (5′5″ and 120lbs soaking wet after a Thanksgiving dinner), she managed to break the jaw of her ex-husband after he tried to hit her out of self-defense. He had her cornered and she punched him – this woman broke the jaw of a 6′3″ 220lb man.
Despite the fact men possess an advantage in terms of strength due to genetics, education and strength training can make a woman a fierce match.
Even after reading this list, I still support the study and encouragement of multiculturalism – I wouldn’t be studying ethnomusicology if I didn’t appreciate different cultures. However, they can maintain a sense of self without these wretched practices, or any other practices that are harmful and horrid like these. It’s up to the outsiders and strong people within the culture to stand up and teach them these are horrid practices, and the dedication to stick with the efforts over time.
We CAN help these people – even through small efforts. Pass the link to this list on to your favorite forums or other websites to spread awareness and activism. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1 other website or 10 other websites – it can make a difference.
June 10th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
FifthSonata -

sorry about that. i was having some issues on site as well. earlier it looked like some other folks were too w/ duplicate postings. so some ‘housework’ was done.
and it does look as though things are back to running smoothly now.
btw -
i find it helpful to ’save’ my comments or write it up in an offsite ‘notepad’ before posting. there are times due to internet being funky, your own ISP acting weird or traffic overload problems onsite..that commenting and/or site access will be problematic. i do apologize for that and hopefully those kinds of issues will be resolved as quickly as possible.
(just a reminder continuing to hit enter will not make a comment appear if there are problems. post once. wait. and see if it resolves.)
June 10th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Good list
women should be treated better
June 10th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Fifth, good for your mother! I definitely wasn’t meaning to imply that women couldn’t defend themselves with my example. Hope I didn’t offend.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Copperdragon; Your attempt to equate your petty grievances with the atrocities on this list is ridiculous. Absolutely none of your experiences, or any of those you listed came about because men are treated as chattel. Sure you may lose your property, but you aren’t treated as property.
You earlier stated that you just wanted us to “not forget the other side”. There is no side on this list, and no argument. All you have done by man-whining is rob this important subject of some of its impact. Foolish fellow.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
mom424 – spoken like a true priviledged woman. i weep for your husband, brothers, father, and sons; and for the unappreciated sacrifices they must make on your behalf.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Please don’t make this debate into feminist terms. Atrocities like this shouldn’t be labeled with other problems. I can see how woman are viewing this like feminists but all these problems are more specific and more brutal than feminist views like being looked at like objects and being called bitch etc. I know there’s domestic abuse in western society today but it’s more lack of education and poverty causing these diabolical acts shown in the list. I believe this more about being humane to any gender than one sex although I do agree women are much more vulnerable and I can never understand, as a man, how they would feel. This is my own opinion and I don’t mean to offend anyone
June 10th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Rushfan:
You should do another list, where you include (as you mentioned)
- female infanticide in china
- forced abortions by the government of china, even to the 9th month
- sex-selection abortions (mostly of females in China, India, and even here in the west)
- female footbinding (almost entirely gone now thanks to Protestant missionaries, but still something recent http://hvattum.net/index.php/2007/05/19/chinese-foot-binding/)
- forced polygamist marriage for very young girls (Islam, Mormon sects)
- forced prostitution / sex trade (esp. in Thailand)
- AIDS among Indian women whose truck-driver husbands frequent prostitutes while on the road
June 10th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Copperdragon: you say you just want to make a point of telling the other side, but i found many of your comments sexist and rude.
You can have an opinion, and state it, of course, but that doesn’t mean you have to be rude…
June 10th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
And what about many “beauty” traditions like lip rings, neck rings, and scarification?
http://singadventure.blogspot.com/2005/07/please-tell-me-why.html
June 10th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Danni Lynn: (#6) that is exactly what I thought when I first read through this list – we think we have problems? I think we don’t!
June 10th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
I won’t even comment on Captain Misogyny, although it does distress me that strawnman attacks, myths and biased personal grievances should emerge in otherwise heartfelt discussions about true gender-based suffering. Men suffer in all sorts of individual ways, sometimes horrifically, sometimes at the hands of individual women or groups of women, but as a sex they have the dominant role in most cultures, and that’s why women are frequently the ‘easy targets’ in societies where justice and human rights are scarce. Don’t go complaining about how men are oppressed because they’re ‘oopsed by moos’ and there aren’t car insurance companies just for men and it’s all POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAAAAD! You don’t know the meaning of suffering, and neither do I, but the people who suffer the atrocities mentioned in this list (and countless more where that came from) know it more than any human being ever should.
I can’t stand by the attitude that we should all be wallowing in Western guilt. What would that achieve and who would it help? Also, unfortunately, there is often very little we can do. I read this list and tomorrow I will carry on my normal, carefree life, and it’s not because I don’t care. I don’t have the money, the resources or the power to do anything BUT care. I can work on behalf of charities and organisations but I can’t help them all and I can’t help all of the people all of the time. What I guess I’m saying is that we shouldn’t be apathetic, but we would go mad we took it on ourselves to be eaten alive by the guilt and pain on behalf of every suffering man, woman and child. It’s not wrong to say ‘This saddens me’ or ‘This angers me’, but to not be out there on the front lines.
June 10th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
i personnally feel that both men and women have difficulties in society some just have it worse.
today a woman with an equal amount of education as a man would make less money for the same amount of work
why is that?
and in America that land of the free we have yet to have a woman as our leader, whereas nations like britain and even some middle eastern countries already have.
i think a woman would do a fine job as president as long as it is not Clinton.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Back to the point, the atrocities against women listed above are more or less the tip of the iceberg, in Afica,when a young womAn looses her husband, the general belief of the family is that she killed him with witchcraft, so she is forced to sleep in thesame room with the corpse and she must drink the water used to wash the corpse, if nothing happens to her afterwards,then she is blameless. IMAGINE THAT! can any of you go through taht and still keep her senses?
June 10th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Nelia – You didn’t offend me at all! My mother has taken several self-defense courses so she has knowledge of weak points on the human body, male or female.
Spinks – we can be part of the help and I personally think every bit we do counts for something. I don’t have the money either and I do the same things you do – work for charities and organizations I agree with. That’s why we have them – it may not feel like you’ve done something special after a few phone calls or help with a few programs, but you have.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Spinks – “Captain Misogyny”
That’s funny stuff!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
kunle, crazy
i also heard that in a certain african village when a boy is to become a man his sisters allow males from neighboring villages to beat them with whips and sticks as a sign of respect to their brother and family and the bigger the scars the better.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
dgsinclair ~ There will have to be a second list, thanks for the ideas (141 & 143) I also recently heard on NPR that in Kenya they still burn “witches”.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
MWP ~ The “equal pay for equal work” debate has changed as feminism has evolved. I consider myself a feminist, even though I do not in any way fit the mold of a leftist modern-day feminist. When you factor in things like time off for maternity leave, years taken off the rear young children until they enter school, etc. women are often more of a liability than men to hire. Say a company invests the time and money to hire and train and groom a female employee who then takes a few (well-deserved) years off to be with her kids, the company looses. As a society, we need to find a way to evolve to meet our current needs instead of keeping the status quo. Now that would be real change, Mr Obama.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
oh my god, that is so horible!
i really hope nothing like this would ever happen to me
June 10th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
rushfan your list is far better than mine. my writing was terrible. it was late. good job rushy
MPW not MWP:)
June 10th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
why do i keep doing that??
i’m so sorry. what was your list??
June 10th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
good point fanrush…. i mean rushfan:)
June 10th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
MPW:
I read with interest your story about the former police officer professor. It was a good story, with a great point, one I wish everyone who has immigrated to the U.S.A. should be obligated to learn.
There was an article in (I think) The Guardian, wherein the Australian PM pretty well laid it on the line to immigrants: Learn our language and our way of life or go elsewhere.
Harsh?
I might have said so 30 years ago. Not anymore.
We used to be proud of being a melting-pot. Now, it’s not p.c. to ask someone from another country to learn how to live in America.
That’s wrong.
And, btw, even though as far as race and age and gender is concerned I was supposedly HRC’ “target” group, I was never a fan.
Must have been all that University education.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
it was about yellow people….doh!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
“captain misogyny”?
“oopsed by moos”?
“political correctness gone mad”?
I will state for the THIRD time – I would not wish the listed atrocities on any woman (or man).
However, I am entitled to my views and opinions just as the rest of you are.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
segue, thanks. he’s an interesting guy with a bunch of great stories
June 10th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
COOL! Love the Simpsons! I’ve been watching them since you were…let’s see…wait, you were a fetus
June 10th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
yes, i have been watching it since i was fetus
June 10th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
copperdragon
As I’ve been reading the seemingly controversial debate between you and Mom424, Randall, Nelia, and the others who have put in their two cents, I was almost surprised at how constructive the conversation has remained on their end.
I’m still puzzled as to what you hope to gain from this petty banter back and forth, as you have yet to answer Rushfan’s question “What is it that you want? More memorials? More credit? More women to suffer and die so you can feel better about the fact that men also suffer and die? ”
As we can all agree both men and women throughout history have suffered unnecessary tribulation, but you are taking this list completely out of context. This list has done a powerful job through use of imagery and information to bring light to such a serious issue that the average person either doesn’t know about or chooses not to acknowledge. I’m sure any man (presumably including yourself) would choose to provide for a family, a circumcision (in a sterile hospital performed by a trained professional, mind you), etc. over the FGM, honour killings, and every other atrocity that has been brought to light on this list! For the record, how many men have you heard of that have died from a routine circumcision, as opposed to the numerous accounts of females dying every day from this heinous, unethical “opperation”. I can’t think of a single case off hand.
As Mom424 has already appropriately said before I, you are merely “[robbing] this important subject of some of its impact”
I hope you’re getting what you came for out of this ‘debate’ but more importantly I hope that this list gets the exposure that it should.
I’ve said my peace, and shall leave it at that.
Kudo’s Rushfan, powerful list!
June 10th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
well said, jumbie
June 10th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
actually i was born already so i guess i wasnt a fetus but definitely a baby.
what year did it debut? 1989?
i was born in 1988. the year of the dragon. i believe im one of the youngest LV’ers
June 10th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
See, up to this point I *liked* copperdragon. I’ve read a lot of his comments and appreciated his wisdom. But now he just sounds like a bitter, divorced man who got the shaft. (And before you say it, yes, I’m a true, priviledged woman and am thankful for that.)
I get your point, but there are ways of saying it that don’t make you out to be an ass. First, comparing FGM and circumcision is like comparing firecrackers to missiles. Are you circumcized? Do you remember it (and the pain)? Likely, the answer is no. Even my cousin, who was circumcized when he was 7, was put out and never felt a thing. Women who are mutilated without anesthesia, usually in dirty back alleys with un-hygienic tools. A good portion will die from infection before they are married.
One must point out whether murder or rape is worse. I mean, think about it- you’re either gone and moved on or you deal with the pain of rape for the rest of your life. The night tremors, the depression, the fear, the mental instability.
You’ve just gone beyond making a point, the “other side”, to flailing insults at disenters. You’ve lost, give it up.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
‘However, I am entitled to my views and opinions just as the rest of you are.’
And I’m entitled to play a jolly round of anti-feminist bingo.
But the ‘moos’ and ‘political correctness gone mad’ bits of my post weren’t meant to be quoting you. I was creating false complaints based roughly on real sexist comments I’ve heard (yeah, even the one about how men are more oppressed in this society because of Diamond bloody Car Insurance). Just expressing my frustration about how people forget the real and terrible inequalities and injustices that happen in the world.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
match, game, set.
June 10th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Oh yeah, hi Vera Lynn. What’s crackibn’?
June 10th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
crackin’
June 10th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
I am glad that the majority responses for this list are that these acts against women should not be tolerated nor condoned. Great List as usual. Each of us needs to continuely stress that this behavior is not acceptable regardless of where we live on this planet.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Such a sick, sick world.
June 10th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
What I find amazing is how a lot of the people commenting haven’t heard about EVERY SINGLE ONE of these and more. How can you be oblivious to it? That’s also disgusting.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
copperdragon: I am privileged; I live in a free society where when I embarrass my family (which is often) they don’t have the right to stone me to death. I live in a country where I don’t have to worry about being held down and having all my good bits hacked off with a rusty tin can lid in order to control me. I live in a society where pissing of my husband doesn’t result in being bathed in acid.
Privileged in the sense you mean? I think not. I am from a working class family. With a high school diploma. My husband is a factory worker. Again showing that you know not of what you speak.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
this stuff scares the shit out of me. and i bitch about things like my job or my boyfriend…
okay then. reality check in progress, thanks very much. AAAH! oh for fuck’s sake… this is so wrong, i can’t even believe that things like this actually go on.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
copperdragon: sure, you have your opinion just as the rest of us do. that’s part of the beauty of this site, we all can openly express our thoughts and remarks.
check out mine….
go to hell. weep for whomever the fuck you want to. oh, and jfrater is the moderator of this site last time i checked, and wally can say whatever he wants. and you can pop off and say chauvinistic comments whenever you desire. and we can all mock you just as WE desire.
so go on mom424… we’re all laughing with you.
in the true essence of this list, what’s say we all dress him in a wig and toss him to the sharks in such above mentioned 3rd world countries? potentially crossing the line, but what the hell…
now go off somewhere and play dungeons and dragons, hmm?
June 10th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
rushfan, thank you for bringing these atrocities to light. I hope that I will be able to help these women in some way – I need to do some research to find out how to do that. I am reminded of an old “In Living Color” sketch, a fake commercial that stated: “White-Out: because if you can’t see it, you can pretend it doesn’t exist!”
You have helped many of us to see these horrendous acts, so that we are forced to admit to ourselves that they DO exist. That’s when we can begin to search for a solution.
June 10th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
copperdragon (#73): as a man (but more importantly as a human being) I would happily stay behind on a sinking ship to allow the women and children to go first. I am also happy to be the sole breadwinner if it means my children will have a better upbringing by having their mother at home with them. I agree that some of the things you mention are bad – but not all are, and they are certainly not as bad as the things we see on this list. However, your comment is very thought provoking – so thanks for that.
Bob (#12): indeed! I wonder if this list does alter people’s opinions on the death penalty. It doesn’t alter mine, but I was already in favor of it to begin with
June 10th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
I have heard of all of these, and more. FGM is often done with broken glass or old razors. And the pain must be considered (cannot think of the word I want). The clitoris the very center of pleasure is being Cut Off! The labia are sewn together so only urine and menstrual blood can escape. The infection rate is huge. Women are in pain many times for life. It hurts ALL the time. And then on their wedding nights, they are cut open again (scar tissue) to allow the penis to penetrate. Much more severe than a circumsision done with a very sharp, clean tool.
In some parts of Africa, people think AIDS and HIV can be cured by having sex with a virgin. It will cleanse them (WTF).
To be silent when one should be vocal makes cowards out of men (mankind not putting the onus on man)
I do not agree with Copper but will defend to the end his right to speak. Once you start denying people the right to say what they want, who decides what is too much? That’s a scary place to go.
Mel: #96 Spot On!
MPW: Hey good evening. Long day. Graduation was today.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
the people in these cultures dont view death the same way we westerners do. as horrible as these things are to them it is natural(probably not the victims though)
jfrater, a lot of people find it hard to believe people would give their life to save people, but i cant blame them.
i would not only give my life to save a loved one, i would take one if necessary.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
“immeasurable” is the word I wanted
June 10th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
MPW I would take one, too. In a heartbeat (no pun intended). When it comes down another, or your family (loved one) your family always wins. You do what you must.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
i once talked to a marine and he told me women do not fight in combat, but women did not decide on that men did.
there is a politician in NY who wants to reinstate the draft so that all of America’s youth can serve in the military.
back during vietnam only the non rich children were drafted
two of my uncles fought in vietnam, thankfully they lived but they never talk about it
June 10th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
i’d kill to save my skin as well
June 10th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
MPW: Both Angels and Cubs in first place and currently winning against the Rays and Braves respectively.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
MPW: I am totally with you on that – I would absolutely take another person’s life to protect a loved one.
Vera Lynn: congrats on the graduation
June 10th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Horribly disturbing list, but it needs to be known.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
about circumcision, the only physical benefit i could think of is hygiene
but…
a lot of girls i have talked to said they prefer a penis that is circumcized because it is more “attractive”
June 10th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
I am the strongest woman I know. I KNOW I could/would do some real damage. I haven’t been in a fight but I know boxing and kung fu. People (men and women) back down. And no, I’m not dykey/ dyky(SP? I’m afraid she’ll tease me again). Just unafraid and strong.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
alright, go angels and cubs
i think i asked you before but how do you feel about steve bartman?
June 10th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Vera, you sound like a strong, smart, positive woman. I would never say anything to intentional upset you. If you don’t think my jokes are funny, I won’t include you anymore, but it was just that, a joke. Teasing someone about spelling errors hardly makes me a cold hearted evil person, as you said. I hope you can forgive and get past it with me.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Jfrater: Thanks but not me. My students. Except for the ones that have to go to summer school. People think it’s punitive, but if you need help, this is an avenue to success. BTW this is my ALL TIME FAVORITE web site. You are to be congratulated.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Copperdragon, you’ve got to be the biggest strawman MRA I’ve ever seen. Just to be sure, you’re not joking, right?
June 10th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
i’ ve been in many fights in my life and i have yet to be bloodied or bruised
not to brag or anything:)
knock on wood
June 10th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Rushfan: intentionally
June 10th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Vera and rushfan did i miss something?
time to make up:)
June 10th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
MPW: The funniest thing I have ever seen was a big (fat) guy barechested at the beginning of the next season with “I ate Bartman” painted on his torso.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Vera, what grade/subject do you teach?
June 10th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
MPW: The funniest thing I have ever seen was a big (fat) guy barechested at the beginning of the next season with “I ate Bartman” painted on his torso.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
June 10th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
he wasnt the only guy who went for the ball though. i blame Alou for getting so angry:)
June 10th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
MPW: Math. I’m a Math nerd. “Math.Game On.” But I was an English major/Secondary education Major with a minor in Reading. Go figure
Cubs win! 10 to 5. See you inthe play-offs!!!!
June 10th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
smiley
June 10th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
“in the” SORRY Rushfan
June 10th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
its been exactly 100 years for the cubbies
math.. not my best subject.. i do love english
June 10th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
As a mother of 3, whom I raised alone, I know now that they’re grown, and I knew when they were growing up, that I could kill anyone who dared to harm my child. I practiced ways to do massive damage to someone bigger and stronger than myself (at 5′8″ and 115 lbs, that was almost everyone). I worked and supported us. I volunteered at their schools. I took them to museums and observatories and concerts (classical, opera, jazz, and rock) and on nature hikes.
I didn’t wait for some whinny copperdragon to support, or entertain, or save my children or me.
But the thing was, and is, I had a CHOICE!
The women and girls on this List have no choices.
He is the poorest, and least informed, excuse for a man I’ve come in contact with for a while.
A bitter little man.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
MPW: Is the former officer Joseph Wambaugh, by any chance? I have a reason for asking.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
i like people who are good at math because im so bad at it and they could help me out.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
segue, no but you got the initials right. his name is Jim Woolum
June 10th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
How ’bout this? We stop sending money overseas and help our own people. You know the homeless, the poor, the sick who have no insurance, those who can’t afford an eduction, etc., etc. How bout hiring more medical staff and policemen How ’bout we get independent committees to oversee government spending (waste) and cut out space exploration for the time being till we’re in more financially viable way. Why don’t we make sricter laws and get rid of the bleeding-heart judges and loopholes, and TONS of appeals.
We could do exploration of the seas–a majority are still unexplored and we might just find cures for some of the wordst diseases yet facing us. But what do we do instead? Spend billions of dollars collecing rocks from other planets and look for microorganisms that MIGHT indicate a presence of life, according to reaserchers, MILLIONS of years ago.
Why don’t we stop murder-on-demand (abortion) and and help unwed mothers and provide facilities where the babies can find good homes quickly. That alone makes America no better than any country that was listed in the original list. Ripping hunam beins to shreds, sucking out their brains, etc. NOW, that’s what I call civilized!!
How many possile Einsteins, Hawkings, and other geniuses have we slaughtered that might’ve come up with the solutions to the problems facing us? How ’bout fixing the Social Security program?
OH! YES! We are perfect and above reproach, we are AMERICANS! Let’s clean up our own bakyard first, shall we.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
whats the reason btw?
June 10th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
S_R, although you have a point as the most powerful nation in the world we have a responsibility to help other nations but only if they want it.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Wow. Where’s Randall when you need him?
Let me take a crack at it…
S-R, huh? Maybe start by picking A topic instead of 30. Isolationism is not a vialble strategy in a global economy. Get used to it. I’m pretty sure the seas *are* being explored. And I’m glad you’re pro-life and all, but how does any of your rant equate to America being “no better than any country that was listed in the original list?”
Exactly no one in any of these comments claimed America was above reproach.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
you can also say “how many hitlers or stalins have we avoided through abortion”
works both ways..Huh?
June 10th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
im pro life btw.
quite simply if you dont want kids you shouldnt be fucking.
or at least wear a rubber!
June 10th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
There is 55,000 TONS of rice for Myanmarr unaccepted. It would fed 750,000 people for 3 months. They won’t take it. THEY WON’T TAKE IT!!!!!!! 18 tons of high-energy biscuits, enough to feed 95,000 people that ended up in warehouses. THEY WON’T TAKE IT. They are afraid of us. So people starve and die. What are you going to do. What would you do? This is scary. Forced starvation. Here in the US we get free cheese. Not much, but still. You have to want to starve here. Food can be gotten everywhere.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
MPW: “you can also say “how many hitlers or stalins have we avoided through abortion””
The difference is that we can at least hold hope that the world will put a stop to future Stalins or Hitlers – once a baby is aborted, we can’t hold any hope for what goodness they may have given the world. Additionally, there are now probably well more aborted babies than all the dead from Stalin, Hitler, and others – perhaps that makes the pro-abortionists the same as Stalin and Hitler…. Food for thought at least
June 10th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
jfrater, you are right.
if you want to go even further “men shouldn’t ejaculate because were killing millions at a time”
thats a joke btw
June 10th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Vera, yeah that is really bizaare. incomprehensible
June 10th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
I never said” cold hearted evil person.” Those are your words, not mine.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
i find it hard to understand how someone in america could starve.
i used to be homeless and poor and i managed on most days to find grub….legally
June 10th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Good night y’all. Be well. Good night MPW. Sleep well. Earlier here than there. I know you know that.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
when i was little i thought it was funny thinking about people sleeping in boxes until i did. although it was cramped it was surprisingly warm.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
MPW: OK you caught my attention again. Bed will have to wait. Why were you homeless?Are you ok now?!?!
June 10th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
good night vera sleep loose because sleeping tight is uncomfortable
June 10th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
i was paraphrasing, but you know what i’m talking about…
June 10th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
my mom and brothers were druggies and they wasted the money so my twin and i suffered but that was five years ago. i now live with my pops and stepmom. life is good now.
i used to be a hoodlum but i turnedf my life around.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
i got a lot of life experience and im not even old enough to drink
June 10th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
you should be proud, mpw. very proud. especially of being in school.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
well sorry for keepin’ you up good night sweetums:)
June 10th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
rushfan, thanks i am
June 10th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
I applaud you for rising above the trouble. You sound like you really have your head on straight. You turned yourself into a better person. The credit is yours. What you did could not have been easy. Kudos to you. I am so happy for you. The best has just begun. Keep learning! I say that not as an educator, but as one who has seen the bottom and swam for the surface. Keep swimming. It gets better and better. Trust me.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
I find it amazing that most of the atrocities listed here happen in countries that have some of the OLDEST histories. Look at africa, all human life started there, and yet some of their practices are show them to be little more than wild beasts.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
in alabama or georgia i cant remember but it is legal to beat your wife once a month but you cant use weapons
is there a monthly log or something
its hard to believe
June 10th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
I heard, during a very dark time in my life,” When you’re done, you’ll be fine., If you’re not fine yet, you are not done.” Very true. Be well. Am I sweetums? I so, Love that.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
thanks Vera Lynn. sleep well
June 10th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
you’re very sweet and kind
June 10th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
MPW: ‘night
June 10th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
gee, i guess you guys told me…
jfrater: thanks for the support. i enjoy playing devil’s advocate, especially when i have a valid (though unpopular) point.
brianne: no, I’m not kidding, and what the hell is a “strawman MRA”??
randall, mom424, jumbie, cedestra, spinks, kiribub, nelia, rushfan, everyone else: i’m man enough to back down from a outnumbered fight, but that doesn’t change my opinion or make me wrong.
Nothing I said was untrue. In all your view(s), less important, but not untrue.
I’ll say it again for those who don’t read all the posts:
I think this is an excellent list. I wish these atrocities would never happen. I offered my point in addition to, not in contradiction of or in replacement of, today’s list.
For those who recognized my point – thank you.
For those who didn’t – i’m sure you’re next post will be “he’s backtracking now” and “he still doesn’t get it”. nice openmindedness. proves my second point.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Copperdragon:
“killed is killed, whether by war or honor.
mutilated is mutilated, whether by acid, knife, bullet or burning.
imprisoned is imprisoned, whether by society or individual.”
1. What is your proposed solution to these problems you are emhasizing?
2.Would you rather be circumsized as an infant, still be able to feel sexual pleasure, and possibly gain some health benefits, or be circumsized as an adolescent with a dull, infected tool, and instead of just removing the foreskin, your doctor specifically fixes you up so that you cannot feel sexual pleasure?
3. Would you rather be dragged out of your own home as an adolescent, taken to a different house, held captive and possibly raped until you submitted to a lifetime of servitude to an individual who considers the process quite normal, while society considers this action acceptable, or would you rather live in a society where you are expected to (but not legally obligated) to work to provide your family (which you take on generally with your own consent) with a clean, acceptable standard of living?
4. Would you rather be raped and see the individual who raped you never come to justice, or be accused of rape by somebody else with the risk of actually being found guilty? (things to consider: DNA testing)
5. Supposing for a moment that reincarnation is real, would you rather be reincarnated as a man or a woman?
Other things to consider: Readers Digest fact: On average, a man does one less hour per week of housework after he gets married. A woman, on average, does seven more hours of housework per week after getting marred.
In American society, it has become the trend for women to have full time jobs right alongside their husbands. However, even though in these households the parents do equal work outside of the house, women still do the considerable majority of child-rearing.
By trying to put the shoe on the other foot in this topic, it seems like all you’re really trying to do is trivialize the extremities outlined in this (awesome) list. Men (and women) living in America or the western world in general have a lot to be thankful for. You say you’re not trying to compare this list to your own, but really that’s what you’re doing. “Mutilation is mutilation…” etc.
What I’m really hearing is something like this.
“She was circumsized with a broken piece of glass when she was 12 so that she wouldn’t feel sexual pleasure? ‘Quitcher whinin’, someone cut off my foreskin when I was four days old.”
You seem off topic in general, just angry about your own situation.
“Uneducated women are lured into shady buisnesses with the promise of a better job but are instead captured and sold as sex slaves? Yeah, well my wife is leaving me and taking most of my money.”
I do think it’s wrong that your wife, who gets paid more than you, might walk away with a good chunk of your funds as well. It is wrong, but emphasizing that point will never change the fact that, as a whole, women have been the group of human beings most wronged throughout history.
I’ll ask you again. Suppose reincarnation is real. If you were reincarnated at any random point throughout the world a hundred times, how many times would you want to be born as a male, and how many as female?
sorry for the long-windedness.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Here’s another one for the list, Women are still routinely stoned to death in parts of Africa and while this also happens to men, the women are murdered for insignificant reasons such as adultery, being raped etc. This is similar to honour killings except that it is not done by the family but the entire community. i’ve seen footage of this happening in Somalia, where a huge mob rips their victim to shreds . It wasn’t pleasant.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
i am very proud to be a woman.
at the same time i am deeply bothered that other women in other parts of the world are being treated in this manner.
this list makes me feel eternally grateful because i am not one of the millions of women who suffer these injustices. and motivation to help, in whatever way i can in my profession as a nurse, and even as a woman, protect women and men from these kinds of violence.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
I’ve read and looked at every single list on this site, from Unit 731 to Jonestown, but I was unable to finish this one. Not an insult at all to you Jamie, it’s just so difficult to look at these images and read the stories to go with them.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:30 am
Gee, what a surprise….most of them involve Islamic countries….sigh…..Islam is to women what Stalin was to property owners!
June 11th, 2008 at 2:00 am
This article is excellent. Some of the comments are very eye opening, too. It’s a shame some kids got on the net to post their flame baits (comments to provoke arguments and when challenged they degrade things into personal jabs)
It’s not Islam specifically that is the problem, but more the rigid and peculiar interpritation by clerics (or in other religions, priests, shamans…the list covers every religion) who hold power.
Like with anything, some people want to keep other sections of society (ie, women – as explained in this article) controlled.
It basically comes down to this: humans can be sh*ts. It’s not gender specific or reliant on your sexuality.
It doesn’t matter what nation you live in or what religion you support.
It doesn’t matter if you are tall, thin, fat, short, black, white, green with dayglo stripes.
It’s a human thing. To stop it remove humans….and then the cockroaches would take over and probably act mean, too.
June 11th, 2008 at 2:38 am
copperdragon – I wonder what its called when you teach women to be more like men? War? Life? Society? Business? Manual Labor? Science? Industry? Exploration?
wow…welcome to the 21 century.
War – I though women are already in the business of enlisting as soldiers (although not yet allowed to be on the frontlines)
life – what life are you talking about?
society – …where have you been?
business – dude. There are PLENTY of women in the workforce
Manual Labor – there ARE women in manual labor too.
Science – DiscHuker had mentioned in his/her post
Industry – Again, lots of females
Exploration – yes. because woman have a gene which psychially stops then from venturing to various places.
As many people had said this already but I’ll say it again. I think it’s unfair that you complain about the abuses men suffer. Yes, it does occur but much much much less frequently, if you put it in percentage I’d estimate less than 0.5% of the population of men suffer. And if you think in terms of the counteries mentioned above eg: Albania, Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Ecuador, Germany, India, Iraq, Israel, Italy, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, Uganda. How much abuse do you think men are facing in those places where they are taught at birth about the inferiority of females and their rights to commit those atrocious and inhumane crimes?
Men being caring does not mean weaker or feminine. That’s the old way of thinking. In fact take a rain check and ask around just how many girls fancy macho ‘manly’ domineering as life partners?
This is really depressing. It’s great that this is posted on this site but it would be heaps better if we can utilise the information somehow like advertisements, art, media, billboards, music etc to make aware of the situation. Afterall education is the way to fight this issue. The Y generation need to be aware of this before family/religious traditions take root. Both males and females.
June 11th, 2008 at 2:43 am
let me add: women are NOT ALLOWED to be on the frontlines because MEN says so. I’m sure there are plenty of females willing to fight in the frontlines for the sake of their countries/family/honor.
June 11th, 2008 at 4:37 am
well…wow. first, wah wah wah. and second, women are not allowed on the front lines because one they are a distraction and two they are not as physically strong as men and are unable to perform as well, slowing things down and potentially causing possible fatal accidents.
i’m with copperdragon on this issue.
June 11th, 2008 at 4:54 am
how cruel!!! no wonder GOD made a hell for the wicked men!!!! .. they deserve to be there.. ANYWAY THERE THERE WILL BE A TIME THAT GOD`S JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL. THE MOMENT I AWAITED MOST
June 11th, 2008 at 5:31 am
Copperdragon is just a woman hater. Pity on him for always gettting wrong women in the past and he must turn gay now.
June 11th, 2008 at 6:18 am
jc – Yes that time will surely prevail……..
Why do these atrocities happen? This is bcoz the males on this planet have always had an inferiority complex. We know that we are the weaker species and hence to establish authority we oppress women. Go back in history most of the atrocities have happened due to this. But times are changing, women are slowly taking over and there will be a time not very far away when the scales will be tilted in their favor.
June 11th, 2008 at 6:22 am
badlist: what are you talking about? We are not deleting comments – I assure you. What do you think was deleted? And who is the Jackass? I am not in the US but I certainly don’t delete comments unless they are spam.
June 11th, 2008 at 6:24 am
longball; For the most part you are correct, size was a limiting factor when it came to war. But throughout history women who were suited to war, went to war. Not all men went to war either, those who were not physically capable of warring became pages, cooks, and the like.
You are missing a point here though; if the women and men went to war equally, who would look after the children? Not much point fighting for security/prosperity if there are no healthy off-spring to inherit it, is there?
Today’s warfare is different; size is not a limiting factor, but temperament/psychological make-up is. There are women suited to combat today just like there always has been.
Your point about distraction is just bullshit. Unless of course most of the men you know are Neanderthals. Military training includes/indoctrinates group reliance. Those who are an asset to the group will be accepted. That said, in practice I agree with you. I know many women in the military who were accepted because they were women, not because they make good soldiers. (I have first hand knowledge about the Canadian military, I am only familiar with the American Military because of TV. It appears the same.) People need to be judged for military fitness as individuals, not as groups. There are some men who should never be soldiers, just like there are some women who should be.
June 11th, 2008 at 6:28 am
I think that #5 and #6 are slightly misconstrued, brides burning happens in Asia coz the brides’ family is not able to pay the dowry asked for by the grooms family. The torture begins immediately after marriage and lasts till either all their ever increasing demands are not met or the bride is burnt. (Shudder)……
June 11th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Time off and come back to this
Just too many injustices to be pissed off about at once
These are all awful injustices, no doubt about it- but a lot of feminism is b*ll*cks. And by a lot of feminism I mean the one person I know who describes herself as a feminist ;p
She’s of the “Sex and the City” school of feminism- the kind that gets excited over slave-sewn shoes, vanity and “oh my god- celebrity blah blah!” but judges Blonde jokes to be an injustice.
Real feminism is in the right however. Equality is something that’s sadly lacking everywhere.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:45 am
S-R:
I felt compelled to answer your rant because…. well… it demands an answer. Though why you felt it necessary to post said rant in this thread, when it bears only the slightest relation to the subject at hand, I don’t know. I suspect, however, that given the timbre and political leaning of what you had to say, that you are simply one of these types who will use any excuse to get into the faces of others so you can shout your self-righteousness at us.
“How ’bout this? We stop sending money overseas and help our own people. You know the homeless, the poor, the sick who have no insurance, those who can’t afford an eduction, etc., etc.”
Well, that’s a nice sentiment, but you know, it never comes down to a choice between helping others overseas and helping our own people, S-R. The block to doing as you say is the lack of political will here at home and political ideologies. If we stopped sending money overseas, that money would still be spent or otherwise disposed of as our domestic political ideologies dictate. In short, this isn’t some magic choosey-thing where we could just snap our fingers and divert the cash to the poor at home. More likely the money would end up in the hands of the Defense Department, or given away to middle-class entitlement programs, and so on. Get the picture?
Moreover, we don’t simply aid foreign countries out of sheer altruism (though, being a good American, I still have the naivete to think that some of our motivations ARE altruistic). Foreign aid is PART of foreign policy. It gives us leverage with other nations and peoples, makes it possible for us to befriend them and improve our image overseas, and suchlike. This is simplistic in the extreme, but I trust you see the point. This serves our own national interests to some extent, and even has an impact on our security.
“How bout hiring more medical staff and policemen How ’bout we get independent committees to oversee government spending (waste)”
all good ideas. Where shall we get the money? Are you willing to pay more taxes? Are you willing to give up something?
“and cut out space exploration for the time being till we’re in more financially viable way.”
As an astronomer, I always get very testy when people challenge the space program. I can be driven into rants of my own. Simply put, A) the space program is one of the lowest-funded government programs going. It doesn’t keep or put *anyone* in the poor house. B) if anything the space program deserves MORE money. It expands science. It has practical returns that have been delivered to us time and time again in terms of technology and knowledge that helps the very poor people you are clamoring about. Moreover, it provides hope and inspiration to our species–something we are often sorely lacking. It also serves our powerful sense of curiosity about the universe around us AND takes us “out of ourselves”–i.e., it reminds us and teaches us that there is more to this sorry existence of ours than simply consuming and making money and trying to stick it to the other guy. In a sense, therefore, it serves a powerful spiritual and metaphysical need within us, without which we would be far less civilized and far more mean-spirited a species. This is not simply true of the space program, but of science and learning itself–as well as religion.
” Why don’t we make sricter laws and get rid of the bleeding-heart judges and loopholes, and TONS of appeals.”
Walk away from our principles of justice and fairness, you mean? You know, in point of fact, we’ve had eight years of right-leaning judges appointed throughout the country (on the Federal circuit as well as in the State circuits where this ideology prevails). Seen any change? I haven’t. This blather about “bleeding heart judges” is just that–blather and myth. And in fact, to the contrary–in New York we’ve had, for decades now, what are called the Rockefeller laws… so-called because they were put in place during the administration of Nelson Rockefeller in the early 70s. They were draconian laws meant to bring drug crime under control. They’re still in effect. And now, decades later? Drug crime is still with us in force, and all we’ve succeeded in doing is swelling the prison population of the state to outrageous (and unaffordable) proportions because the laws compel the state to send to prison anyone possessing X amount of a drug, be it marijuana or what have you–starting with quantities so small that it clearly punishes mere users in larger numbers than actual pushers. Now, okay, don’t whine for drug users if you like–fine… but the fact is, stricter laws ended up equaling…. more cost to the taxpayer, and nothing accomplished.
“We could do exploration of the seas–a majority are still unexplored and we might just find cures for some of the wordst diseases yet facing us.”
so you’re willing to pay vast amounts to explore the sea, but not space? And your logic? That we might find a cure for some disease. Hmm. Unlikely… but then why not pay, by that logic, to prevent the destruction of rain forests–where we already know many species have been wiped out, and where, in the past, we HAVE actually discovered various cures and medical applications? Also, I hasten to point out–the space program HAS given us many practical medical applications in and of itself.
” But what do we do instead? Spend billions of dollars collecing rocks from other planets and look for microorganisms that MIGHT indicate a presence of life, according to reaserchers, MILLIONS of years ago.”
And so? See my comments earlier. There is more to this existence of ours than sitting through 70 or 80 years of life eating and sleeping and procreating, S-R. Exploration–of the seas, the earth, space—and ourselves–is key to what we are. It’s key to making life worth living. Your soapbox on this point is founded in nothing but ignorance and impetuous stupidity.
“Why don’t we stop murder-on-demand (abortion) and and help unwed mothers and provide facilities where the babies can find good homes quickly. That alone makes America no better than any country that was listed in the original list. Ripping hunam beins to shreds, sucking out their brains, etc. NOW, that’s what I call civilized!!”
This isn’t the time or place to get into the lengthy debate about abortion. I will only say that appeals to emotion on this subject are easy. Try addressing instead the complex questions surrounding abortion—such as, where do a woman’s rights start and end? And how do we care for the unwanted children that would therefore be brought into this world, as you demand, when we already have a huge problem in this regard?
“How many possile Einsteins, Hawkings, and other geniuses have we slaughtered that might’ve come up with the solutions to the problems facing us?”
A chimera, and a bad one. A) geniuses are rarely born, they are most often made. B) by your logic, we should therefore then not only put a stop to abortion, but also EACH and EVERY ONE of us should start humping like mad, popping out baby after baby in their millions and millions, so that we can produce some geniuses to fix our problems for us. And even when we have them–better keep boinking away, because new problems will always arise, and old geniuses die. Clearly this is asinine, but your logic on this point would dictate it. C) I note how your type always has this tendency to look towards the undefinable “genius” or “leader” to fix our problems for us. It betrays a servile and cowardly mien on your part. Howzabout we just roll up our sleeves and have the courage to fix our problems ourselves–as previous generations of human beings throughout history have usually had to do?
“How ’bout fixing the Social Security program?”
The main threat to Social Security is A) a government which continually feels the temptation to dip into it and B) a vast in number Baby Boom generation which is retiring, and a small in number generation X and Y (me and mine) who will be left with the bill to support those self indulgent boomers. The “fix” here is kind of hard to put a finger on. Basically it means pumping money into the system–and again–are you willing to pay more taxes? Looks like either way, we’ll have to, when the time comes.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:50 am
good Lord, this brought tears to my freaking eyes.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:52 am
@thataboverant-
Stopping foreign aid would be, well, nefarious- considering how much of the money in our countries comes from exploiting foreign workers, monopolising resources in foreign countries and generally being dicks- all the while holding the massively inflated debt over developing countries.
We have a moral obligation to not only aid them, but to quit our exploitation and continue the aid until they’re on their feet. Which we won’t do, because we want cheap coffee, chocolate bars, Coca Cola, clothes, diamonds etc…. everything we have that makes us “developed” pretty much.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:59 am
****
Author: MPW
Comment:
whats the reason btw?
****
I asked because I knew Joseph W. fairly well for a number of years, about 5, during, and after, a stint working with the Mystery Writers of America. This was after leaving the film biz.
Nice guy. Great stories. The story you related sounded like it could have been him.
****
I am a pro-lifer, too. Apparently a strange position for a woman to hold these days, but it boils my blood to see these women screaming against the wearing of fur or leather, interfering with whaling ships, crying out against the cruel and unusual punishment of the death penalty, yet demanding the right to kill their unborn children.
What’s wrong with this picture?
June 11th, 2008 at 8:10 am
S-R,; You stated how many Einsteins we have snuffed out through abortion. More to the point is how many Bundy’s have we avoided?. Sorry but an unwanted/unloved children are way more likely to be serial killers than geniuses. You can check the stats on that if you like.
June 11th, 2008 at 8:11 am
In most countries, bride burning IS a crime! The more correct term for this crime is ‘dowry death’ since it’s not just burning that women are subject to. It is also still treated as murder if the bride commits suicide. Plus, asking for dowry itself is a punishable offence.
This is not to say that these crimes do not take place but many victims do get justice.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:16 am
badlist -
then don’t comment.
better yet…find some American site to spam.
buh-bye!
June 11th, 2008 at 10:18 am
tsiamon: i would love to be reincarnated as a woman in a western overprivileged country – they have all the power and most of the laws on their side.
fortunately for us men, they don’t know it yet, and those who do are making the most of it in the areas of military (dont have to fight), parental and marital rights (whats mine is mine and whats yours is mine) and entertainment (sex is a billion dollar industry – and its not the men making the money).
if i was reincarnated as a man, any time or society would be okay except for today’s western society, where men are completely emasculated for the sake of PC and women’s rights.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:32 am
rubysp:
War – I though women are already in the business of enlisting as soldiers (although not yet allowed to be on the frontlines) – correct, so they dont suffer the atrocities of war like MEN do.
life – what life are you talking about? The hard knock life that MEN have endured for the sake of supporting/protecting women.
society – …where have you been? same place as you, watching my parental and marital rights disappear (if they ever existed)
business – dude. There are PLENTY of women in the workforce. yes – and many are making great strides in this area, as of the last 50 or so years. Until then, it was all men all the time. and i think we did a pretty good job (industrial revolution anyone?) Why do women have a glass ceiling? because many of them are not willing to put in the hard work to break it – they want it handed to them through special programs that change the requirements for having the same success or pay.
Manual Labor – there ARE women in manual labor too – yes, mostly as administrators or other non-life-threatening positions. Assembly lines dont count – i’m talking oil rigs and coal mines and construction workers.
Science – DiscHuker had mentioned in his/her post. yes – and women are making great strides in this area. I actually think women are more suited to scientific research than men.
Industry – Again, lots of females. Which industries?
Exploration – yes. because woman have a gene which psychially stops then from venturing to various places. which gene? pregnancy gene? talk to Sacajawea. the point is that this is one area where women are more than capable of challenging men, they just wont/cant.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:36 am
basically, there are some industries that women are more suited (science, exploration, society), some where men are more suited (manual labor, war) and some that are equally suited (business).
If women succeed and men don’t praise them, we’re assholes.
If men succeed and women don’t praise them, we’re…out of luck, and still assholes.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:48 am
copperdragon:
K, A) your cheap shot about my cinematic role models was off-base. Clearly I meant that such men AS CHARACTERS were admirable *when they were playing admirable male roles.* Naturally, slapping women around and in general being the villain in a film is not “admirable” nor does it make for a role model. You were being disingenuous–admit it. B) It was also undignified, dishonorable, and pretty catty of you (strange, as you’re disparaging women right and left here, that you chose to argue less like a man and more like a teenage girl) in that, you know, I was trying to give you some needed advice and a definitely called-for kick in the proverbial ass. C) Of course I was also being tongue-in-cheek. Naturally REAL heroes are real, and film heroes are not. The correct way to best summarize this is simply to say, “Duh.” Again, however, I was trying to make a point—which, in your haze of irrationality, you raged right through like the flailing adolescent you’re acting like.
Now these latest remarks to tsaimon. Good lord.
Dude… I’m grateful every damn day I’m a man, and so are you–and yes, even in our somewhat pussy-whipped Western culture. Had I the choice I would NEVER choose to be a woman, regardless of the culture or time period. Not only for the physical miseries and privations of menstruation and unwanted pregnancy, etc., (not to mention being physically weak–yeah, I’d love to go through life having to ask some stupid man to open the pickle jar for me every damn time) but even more so, because it is simply utterly untrue that women have “all the power” and “most of the laws” on their side. Wake up out of your bitter dream-state, copper. You’ve gone overboard into hallucination-land.
The only point you have is that the rights of mothers have always trumped those of fathers in a legal sense. Is this, perhaps, the origin of your beef? Have you encountered some kind of personal issue there? If so, I’m genuinely sorry for you–it’s unfair. But it’s also, again, understandable. Women have had the role of the nurturer and tender-of-children since time immemorial. It therefore is not hard to see why the laws, until recently, have heavily favored them. But let’s not kid ourselves that taking care of children is a cushy job. If you had kids you’d know damn well that it’s not, and more often it’s the case than otherwise that women are left holding the bag when it comes to kids–left to fend for themselves AND their children, either through male abandonment or unwanted pregnancy. Not a life *I’D* want to deal with, and neither would you.
Power, meanwhile, has been and still largely is in the hands of men, and we both know it. Women still don’t make the same kind of money that men do for equivalent jobs, nor do they have access to the same opportunities for advancement. They are also unavoidably (sometimes) penalized, in a career sense, for being women–in that they are the childbearing sex. Men, of course, are not so penalized and never will be.
As for it not being men making the money in the entertainment industry—sheesh! What brand of glue are you sniffing today? Women are EXPLOITED to no end by the entertainment industry—particularly if you get into the less-legitimate end of it (porn) where it is very much men–who are sometimes little better than pimps–managing and making all the cash off the sale of cinematic sex. Get off it pal.
Clearly you’re having some awful experience that’s really bent your head into a kink. But it’s off the wall. I have a lot of beefs with women myself, but I keep to the sane side of reality. You, on the other hand, have tossed logic and truth into the garbage and are wallowing in self-pity.
June 11th, 2008 at 11:10 am
similar to FGM is female circumcision. performed in middle eastern countries when the baby is 4 or 5, they have there clitorous ripped off so they cant enjoy sex, it keeps them under control, similar to a enouch (however you spell it, castrated man)
horrible stuff >_
June 11th, 2008 at 11:23 am
This list makes me sad. To think that here in America we complain about gas,traffic and texting limits while out in the world a woman is murdered simply for being a rape victim.What a degenerate country we live in. The only hope we have to make sure these crimes don’t occur as often as they do now is to teach the next generation about the difference between what is right and wrong.
This also reminds me of something that happened in my neighborhood in El Paso two years ago. This Muslim family moved into our neighborhood. They had five kids,four boys and a girl. The girl went to my middle school, and she was generally quiet. During October,a week after she moved here, she started hanging out with random people(because they have never met a Palestinian girl in their lives)and then she fell in love…with basketball. She wanted to try out for the basketball team and did so with the permission of her parents. But then, her uncles and grandfather heard of what she was doing, and demanded that she stop. When she wouldn’t, they actually came to the U.S from Palestine and there, out in public in the school gymnasium, they beat her and kicked her. They almost would have killed her if some of the students and staff hadn’t held them back. They were arrested and they claimed that they hadn’t done anything wrong. She went home all beaten and bruised. Her two older brothers, having grown up in the middle east, thought that they would take it upon themselves to finish what their uncles started, so they stabbed her to death as soon as she walked up the driveway. The youngest brother tried to save her and he was stabbed to death for being a traitor to the family.It was a shock to me because I was the first person to find them dead, since they’re parents weren’t home. They went to jail and were given life sentences ( this is in Texas, so one of them was given the death penalty). When he was asked to comment about the murders, the father said that he never supported honor killings and thought he had raised his sons better than that.
Although I was happy at hearing the sentences, it won’t matter until the day those who support these and other horrors are faced with real jugdment.
I’m also kinda pro-life except in the cases of when A) you stand a chance of passing down a disease to your child,B) when you have been raped or it was conceived out of incest,or C) when you absolutley know your going to have a stillborn. Any other times, it’s not justified. I’m also shocked at the lack of sexist comments, with the exception of copperdragon, who just so happens to be so simple-minded. I was kinda expecting this one guy who would have read this list and have gone ,” why is that bad? women are evil, this isn’t enough to justify their sins!”.I wouldn’t get mad though, people like that are going to hell anyway.
June 11th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Riya ~ Thank you very much for sharing that story. It illustrates the fact that even though the laws here in the US protect girls and women from the above list of treatments, men who feel entitled to treat them this way are impossible to stop.
June 11th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Rushfan, it took me a couple of days to post about this list because of how incredibly moving and disturbing I found it.
Congratulations, thank you for showing everyone on this site the ugly side of humanity. It is tough, and stomach churning to see, but vital to expose these horrors to the world.
The men who perpetrate these acts are the lowest, most disgusting cowards on the planet. The women who allow these acts to continue without standing up for their mothers, daughters, aunts, cousins, grandmothers, sisters, and friends have blood on their hands as well.
June 11th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Randall:
Not all hero “characters” are female-friendly. (james bond, anyone?)
Not all power is money.
women’s power is sex.
The atrocities listed above show some cultures fear of it.
Western society has a blend of fear-control (prostitution laws and abortion laws)
and fascination (advertising and porn).
Some women use this power to their advantage, some use it for men’s detriment.
women in the porn industry make 10x what men make.
Advertisers use it to sell detergent and soft drinks.
Courts use it to punish fathers and husbands.
If a man stands up to this abuse, they’re labeled wimps or whiners.
If they don’t, they’re fools.
Does this mean abusing women? NO.
Does this mean allowing them to use their power as they see fit? Sure, but that doesn’t mean we have to succumb to it or be beguiled by it.
Does this mean keeping an eye on them? YES, just as they keep an eye on us.
I acknowledge the atrocities SOCIETY has inflicted on women, as listed above.
I acknowledge the atrocities SOCIETY has inflicted on men, as listed in my original post.
I acknowledge the power play between the sexes.
Whose side am I on? Mine.
I have the right to handle those powers differently and not necessarily equally depending on how they are directed at me.
Do the women listed above have that right? Unfortunately, no, because of the laws and cultures of their land, and that is sad.
Do men in western society have that right? Unfortunately, not always, because of the women-centric laws and cultures of our land, and that is also sad.
To answer another poster’s question:
what do I think should be done?
more balance. more appreciation. more cooperation. on both sides. for all cultures.
a perfect world? maybe. unattainable? not necessarily, if both sides are willing.
Does that mean men (and women) helping these women in need? absolutely.
Does that mean women (and men) helping men in need? absolutely.
BTW, your pompousness does not make you more right or wrong than I am, or make your opinion more or less valid.
So get off your fucking high horse. The prettiest voice is not necessarily the right one.
Are you more popular? Sure, good for you. Mob mentality rules.
Am I going to be vilifiled and denigrated for telling off the most popular boy in school. Probably. (see, I can open a dictionary too)
Do I care? no.
So stop with the personal attacks – ALL OF YOU – and stick to the rules of debate. Point, counterpoint.
Don’t agree with my point or opinion? Fine, tell me why and offer a different opinionm, but calling names just makes you lose the argument.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I am a fan of this site. I love hearing the debates and the different opinions of people, and generally I just enjoy sitting back and reading what others say. But there is nothing I disagree with more than when people lump groups of other people into one bowl and say they are the devil incarnate because they have similiar qualities.
I am female. I’m 24, fresh out of university, and beginning my life as a working woman. I don’t have a boyfriend/fiance/husband. I don’t depend on any other person to make my money, or cook my food, or protect me from the bugs in the cellar. I also happen to be taking care of a three-month old son. By myself. With no financial support from the biological father. I didn’t ask a dime from him. I didn’t manipulate him, try to trap him with a pregnancy. I stupidly left my anti-anxiety medication within his reach, and he took advantage of it. Is he in jail? No. Is he suffering any consequences? No. Will he be coming home to me, feeling all oppressed because he has to go check out the sounds in the kitchen in the middle of the night? Thank God, NO!
I’m not stupid. I knew he wouldn’t cooperate, so I let him sign the handy little paper that absolves him of all fatherly duties, and am preparing myself to take care of my baby boy by myself, with only my immediate family as the occiasonal babysitter. Do I think all men are dead-beats because of this? No. I happen to have one of the greatest men I’ve ever met as a father, not to mention two excellent brothers. Do I think there are men out there who should be held accountable for the terror/torture they put their female counterparts through? Abso-freaking-lutely.
I’m not saying there aren’t oppressive and emotionally/physically abusive females around, and I know there are males out there who have been tormented and oppressed by these women as well. But I also know statistics, and the fact that men are biologically built different from women, both emotionally and hormonally. That doesn’t make either of us oppressed! It’s the choices and actions of people, against each other and themselves, that decide who in a society is going to get the short end of the stick.
I’m not looking for a man to protect and provide for me. I’ll do that myself, thanks. I’ll also throw myself in front of a bus if it means my son will cross the street safely, I’ll grab a bat and investigate the noise downstairs (the fact I played softball helps), and I’ll sure as hell stay in a burning building to insure Charlie gets out alive.
And I’ll take no help from our “women-centric” laws, either.
Excellent list, rushfan, we need more people like you who are willing to educate and speak up about the world’s atrocities.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
kittym:
Bravo, and nicely said.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Copperdragon? What exact man abuse are you now complaining. The only valid point you have made so far is in regards to child custody. I will agree on that point; women are the default winners in a custody battle, regardless of whom would be the better parent. (Overt abuse excepted).
Another point I will agree on is that female porn stars make more money than male porn stars. Although neither make the mega-bucks the producers do. (Probably ‘cuz the guys would do it for free
) Porn is exploitation, period. It can be consented to, but it is still exploitation. Male or female. And lets face it, the girls make more money, because the men who buy most of the porn, could care less which guy is in the film. And the gay porn guys don’t make as much because the demand is not as high as straight or lesbo porn. This is not discrimination, it is economics. So your comment is correct, but your reasoning is flawed.
The rest of your complaints have much more to with actual gender differences and division of responsibility. You have yet to justify the rest of the vitriol. The what have you done for me? Look after me type of women? Women with a sense of entitlement? You appear to paint all women as grasping harpies who expect everything handed to them. Because you don’t know how to pick them. I know a few women like that; they aren’t my friends and I certainly wouldn’t marry them.
Maybe you need to reevaluate your criteria for choosing a partner. Partner, like equals. Not one responsible for the other, but responsible for each other.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
nikPG: “We know that we are the weaker species and hence to establish authority we oppress women. Go back in history most of the atrocities have happened due to this.”
i thought all the wars of history were started because of religion. atleast that is what other threads say.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Oh poor copperdragon. All those men being burned and having acid thrown on them for looking at the wrong woman or not being able to afford a dowry. All those poor men who have their dicks cut off to ensure their subservience to women and that they will never enjoy sex. All those poor men being sold into sexual slavery. All those poor men kidnapped and forced into marriages.
Oops, that never happened, did it?
But sure, you do suffer inexpressibly under the domination of evil evil women.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
mom424: i guess you didn’t read my whole post. oh well.
Porn is not exploitation if its voluntary.
I only paint individual women as grasping harpies if that’s how they act. guilty conscious, perhaps?
and I applaud kittym for being a strong, independent member of society.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
tsitsi: and i’m sure you would like me to be the first. oh well. if you’re trying to brow-beat me with your rhetoric, get in line (right behind mom424)
June 11th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Yes I did read your comments, but you haven’t justified them. Which women-centric laws? other than the custody issue? I know of no women rich because of divorce settlements and child support. Maybe we travel in different circles. Half the value of the house and child support (couple hundred/kid) if they woman has sole custody. Here, where I live, joint custody is becoming the norm. No support, split on sports etc. (Geared to income). If the woman wants to keep the house, she has to come up with 50% of fair market value. Generally the woman is left worse off. Here there is no such thing as pay equity. My husband as an auto worker makes twice as much as a grade school teacher and on par with a principal at a high school. I’m looking for specifics. Something to justify that men are so hard done by attitude.
June 11th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Mom424: Word on the street is, Heather Mills is very wealthy now that she has Paul McCartney’s testes swinging from a chain around her neck.
June 11th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
SlickWilly; My point exactly! Different rules apply to the very, very, rich.
Am I a bad person for wanting to beat her with that leg?
June 11th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Cyn, rather than wishing badlist on American Lists (we have enough jerks already, thank you very much), why not just wish him off any site? Wouldn’t that be more fair?
June 11th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
slickwilly: a pair of testes and a stack of money is a very savvy trade for a missing leg and a couple years of celebrity/heartache/fame.
mom424: i have no specifics, just the generally accepted cliche (celebrated in countless songs and tabloids) of women keeping everything they have and getting half of their husbands income/possessions. How often do you hear of a woman losing her house, car, half of her pay and living in a tiny apartment after divorce proceedings. It just doen’t happen.
That is a woman-centric law.
There are plenty of examples of special programs, discounts, and other “benefits” that apply solely to women, regardless of income, without a comparable benefit for men.
Are you implying that those “programs” are women’s just recompense for being the child-bearers? If a woman is pregnant, stranded, poor – there are hundreds of programs and millions of dollars just waiting for them. If a woman is independent and rich, she has access to the same programs, plus more.
If a man is stranded, poor, disabled – there are very few programs and very little money for them. If a man is rich and stable, he does not have access to those programs. And if a woman is denied access to these male-centric programs (on top of their own programs), then its gender discrimination.
what programs? everything from EIC, WIC, FMLA, and Title IX to Ladies Night.
everytime I see a cancer awareness rally, i always ask the workers for any information on testicular cancer. oh, sorry, only support breast cancer here.
Do I hate women (as everyone seems to imply)? NO.
Do I hate the fact that there is gender discrimination on both sides? YES.
June 11th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
mom424: and different rules apply to the very, very female.
June 11th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
my brother worked at a restaurant where the women’s restroom was always busy so sometimes the women would go into the men’s room but if a man tried to do it he would be arrested or something
but its really trivial.
whens the last time a man was denied something because of his gender?
copper you commented earlier that you were man enough to back down from a losing fight….why haven’t you
i dont think you hate women you’re just naturally sexist like most men
you are fighting a losing battle buddy. just quit now.
June 11th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
QUIET COPPER…jst coz u gone thru sumthing u dnt have to pity other men…sad on ur part…oh do be sensible for these things instead of bringing up wat men go thru n etc etc etc…MEN DO GO THRU FEW TUFF THINGS BUT THEN MOST OF THE WOMEN GO THRU WORST THINGS…
June 11th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Where you live is obviously different than where I live. My next door neighbour husband left her after 30 years marriage. (He had a g/f back home who he pined over for that 30 years). She got the house in lieu of half the value of his house and half his pension. And half of their joint bank accounts. Neither suffered.(That’s not true, Phyllis sure did; she had no clue) That would not have been the case if the kids were not grown. Fair that the money they saved, the house they built, should be shared. Our assistance programs (we have many) favour anyone with children. It doesn’t matter if you are the mom or the dad. Our disability programs are not gender specific, but disability specific. Also, last summer we had a huge push (pun intended) for prostate cancer awareness. Teaching men not to be bashful, go and have the digital rectal exam. The only place where being a woman tends to be an asset when it comes to promotion is a government job. Everywhere else, it is man top-heavy. Very much so. My hubby’s auto-factory, tons of women, 40 percent or some huge number. In upper management? 1.
The only gender specific assistance where I live is battered women’s shelters. That is self-explanatory. Yes, I know some men are abused, but physical size alone dictates the numbers are not near what women experience.
As for ladies night, it is traditionally held on a dead night at the bar. Better have the women coming in spending something, than nobody coming in.
I don’t see this gender bias you have experienced.
ps; note I passed over your intimation about my sense of entitlement. I have none. I have worked for everything of value I have in this life.
June 11th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I think one issue Copper has (inadvertently) brought to light here is the negative results of the way women allow, even encourage, ourselves to be portrayed by the media. It really angers me when women “play dumb” when they are not, because it’s “cute.” It hurts us all. Unfortunately, we are all painted with the same brush when a few women in the mainstream are used to represent us all.
June 11th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
segue -
that made me smile. thanx.
June 11th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
copperdragon: What you said about rich women getting all the different progams as well as the poor ones is incorrect, at least in my state. To qualify for WIC and HealthyStart (Medicaid) a household can only be so many percentage points above the poverty line depending on how many people in the household (including breadwinners and children). Any higher, and you can’t get any coverage whatsoever. Trust me, I looked into it. Same goes for free daycare. In order to qualify for that, generally the woman has to be single and going to school. There are quite a few loopholes in the system as well. It seems that any chance the state can get, they’ll deny coverage. I was one of the lucky ones: I managed to finish my last year of my degree online, so I was able to keep my student insurance, and only had to pay for my son’s medical bills. Still adds up, though.
June 11th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
****
Author: Cyn
Comment:
segue -
that made me smile. thanx.
****
You’re welcome.
America is currently in the midst of a Presidential election, a looooong, absurd activity which can turn the mentally wobbly, into the mentally demolished…badlist and copperdragon being just two obvious examples.
Understand, I’m not excusing them, I’m just saying look for more really erratic behavior from the U.S. contingent.
June 11th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
This site was an insight to what is actually happening around the world. We are not all in a bubble BUT I think for those that are not paying attention this shows you what is happening around the world
June 11th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
depressing as hell
June 11th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
“tsiamon: i would love to be reincarnated as a woman in a western overprivileged country – they have all the power and most of the laws on their side.
fortunately for us men, they don’t know it yet, and those who do are making the most of it in the areas of military (dont have to fight), parental and marital rights (whats mine is mine and whats yours is mine) and entertainment (sex is a billion dollar industry – and its not the men making the money).
if i was reincarnated as a man, any time or society would be okay except for today’s western society, where men are completely emasculated for the sake of PC and women’s rights.”
I had a feeling you would try to wriggle around it like that. Unfortunatly, you didn’t answer the question. The question was, if you were to be randomly reincarnated anywhere in the world a hundred times, how many of them would you want to be a woman, and how many a man?
I asked this fairly clearly twice and you did not give me a straight answer- you’re intentionally dodging the straightforwardness of the question by going back to your initial claim that women in the west are spoiled. You don’t want to answer the question directly because it would mean acknowledging that, on average in this world, women get the extremely short end of the stick.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
94. copperdragon
“a little of both, but consider this: would your wife lay down her life in defense of yours? would she be required to by society? if not then you (as a man) are suffering and being oppressed. you’re been reduced to nothing more than a disposable money-making shield.”
I would lay down my life for the health and livelihood the man I love anyday, regardless of the situation. I would, WITHOUT ANY HESITATION, do so for my family, and most of my friends.
Yes, I do believe it is expected of me should such a situation arise.
I’m not a feminist. I’m a Chinese Canadian woman, raised Catholic.
What mother have you seen, besides the scum who get careless abortions, who wouldnt defend her child with her life?
June 11th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Jackit: Bravo! Well said.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Women are always the source of being controlled and a very threat. Women have always been a threat for centuries and continue to be so. Any one who can pick up the book ‘Vigina Dialogues’ I encourage them to do so. The vigina is a symbol of what it stirs in people. Temples have been built and destroyed for it. It is a very insightful book. With all its faults and problems….. God Bless America!!!
June 11th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
this is EVIL………… in our country HUMAN TRAFFICKING is very onsled….. those who treat women like these abuses must burned in hell……… FUCK THOSE PEOPLE
June 11th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
the horrifying reality this list presents is sure to elicit strong emotional responses, as it should. personally i do not think that means people who comment should resort to bashing other commenters or the list submitter or the site. there is never a call to do that. critique is fine. stating an opinion is fine. making it personal or obscene and/or threatening..especially threatening..is not. there are ways to make cursing make your point more profound and then there are times cursing is just ’slinging monkey poo’. there is never a time threats are warranted.
June 11th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
While it is sickening that these things happen, it is all the more sickening that try as we might, we can’t change things overnight. And if it is part of the culture, we can’t eradicate it all. It was be impossible. As a disabled woman, had I lived in a different country, I would have been killed quickly as I would have been seen as a ‘pariah’ of sorts.
Question for debate here: is prostitution, and I mean volentary prostitution considered a crime against women?
June 11th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
This is a depressing list.I haven’t heard of honour killing being carried out in Uganda though.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:03 am
****
#301 Author: Lady Jekyll
Question for debate here: is prostitution, and I mean voluntary prostitution considered a crime against women?
****
I have debated this question with myself, and the answer I come to is…not so much. The “Voluntary” part, if it truly IS voluntary, takes it out of contention for crime against anyone. But who in their right mind would voluntarily go into prostitution as a career choice?
June 12th, 2008 at 2:13 am
jfrater: I seem to be having trouble today, actually yesterday, with not all of my posts going through,
We did have a power outage here on California’s central coast, so maybe that had a bearing on it; maybe the incredibly long posts back and forth between cooperdragon and Randall have some causative action (i don’t know, after 26 years on a computer you’d think I’d be a bit more savvy, but they’ve all been Apple/Mac, which never go wrong, so no).
Anyway, though I’d mention it in case it’s something on your side.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:33 am
segue: thanks for letting me know – I think that the sysadmins are in the process of moving us over to the load balancer and three servers (we presently have two servers) so there may be a few glitches in the process. Hopefully the end result will be much better quality servers and no bugs!
June 12th, 2008 at 5:59 am
lady jekyll: if it is voluntary, other than being against the laws of the land, i see no reason why this should be a crime. i think it is sad, vulgar and sickening that someone would resort to that. but criminal, no.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Unimaginable abuses. Just very hard to understand.
June 12th, 2008 at 8:28 am
RE: sexual abuse of women & children http://endmafia.com
June 12th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Thanks for putting my day in perspective for me.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
tsiamon: 50/50
jackit (and others): i’m glad you would defend/protect your husband. not many women would. they may say so, but when real push comes to real shove, and the bad guy is standing there, they are not standing in front as protector, or even standing next to as equals. They are either protecting the children, which is great, but doesn’t help the husband much. Or they’re dialing 911, which is great, but doesn’t help the husband much. Yes, physical strength plays a role, but its not the only style of defense. as noted above, speed, stealth and strategy are just as important. I would rather my wife was sneaking up on the burglar from behind with a tennis racquet while he faces off with me, instead of on the phone or in the kids room. call the cops after he’s knocked out, and he’s not going for the kids unless he gets past you anyway. Single *parents* (not just single moms) definitely have it the hardest, as there’s no one to back you up or help out with any activity.
my basic ending point: ladies, please don’t undervalue, take advantage of, take for granted or unappreciate your husbands/brothers/fathers, in all aspects of life, anymore than you would want them to do so to you. the golden rule still applies, no matter what your gender.
HAPPY FATHER’S DAY to all.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Happy Father’s Day to you, Copper!
*my basic ending point: ladies, please don’t undervalue, take advantage of, take for granted or unappreciate your husbands/brothers/fathers, in all aspects of life, anymore than you would want them to do so to you. the golden rule still applies, no matter what your gender*
well stated
June 12th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
but im not a daddy….yet
June 12th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
no one wished you a happy father’s day, silly
some day you’ll make a great dad!
June 12th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I’m painting with a broad brush, but the thing that I found most revealing, was the state sanctioned religion of the countries where these atrocities take place. Hindu, Buddhist, Islam.
Not one of these acts against a fellow human are viewed as “standard practice” in a Christian nation.
Now I’m not saying bad stuff doesn’t happen in predominately Christian nations, unfortunately, it does. What I am saying, is that this type of abuse is not acceptable. Ever.
And yet, Christians are often the ones portrayed as the bad guys.
Interesting.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
he said happy fathers day to all and im in the “all” group:)
June 12th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
mpw, my bad
fan of rushfan, first off, *love* your name
And I couldn’t agree more. The fact is that in the USA and other free nations crimes are prosecuted while in these other countries these crimes are either enouraged, allowed, or ignored.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
As is apparent almost all of these atrocities are not only common but have to do with religion. The fact that I say these are atrocities reveal my position, but we must remember, can we truly say the people who do this are evil, they are born and raised in a culture where this is not only promoted bu expected. Human beings are not born with a sense of right and wrong, it is taught to them. The way we think is not only determined by our personalities but by or environment and upbringing. But the reason that things like this will continue to happen is because when they say that doing it is what god wants you to do, it is near impossible to convince people other wise. If Christians are told the Bible is fake they will not believe it, its truth has been ingrained not just by their parents but by society. If Jews are told eating kosher is stupid the same thing happens. To stop things like these from happening, you would need to change the basic moral beliefs of an entire religion. Who are we to stop it. would we not due the same in similar situations, if you were raise believing it was the right thing to do. But the price is payed by women in a male dominant world, but one must remember that equality among sexes is only possible in times of peace and civilization. In modern society the physical dominance of men loses importance and intelligence levels the playing field, but you see these things happen in places were physical dominance is vital to survival. These things will continue happen until the entire world is civilized and the very basic moral code of multiple religions is changed. I seek not to demoralize but to reveal the truth that the reasons for these things are plain and the path to fix it nearly impossible.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Let me make it clear that there is no right or wrong, these are just ideas that we use to placate ourselves that we are “good”. There is only what one has the power or ability to do and what they can justify doing. #rd world countries have not the power to stop such things so the people have the power to do it and religion gives them all the justification they will ever need. Speak not of how bad these things are. You think they are bad, you believe they are bad and you act and speak accordingly but that does not make it true. Perspective determines what a person thinks is right and wrong and power determines what they can do with that perspective. The weak are never truly “good” or truly “evil” for the lack the power to do things of consequence. It is only a combination of perspective and power in which true “evil” is born. Yet it is those with a crueler and more selfish perspective that crave the power to act out their beliefs and ideals.
June 12th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Copperdragon -
I think I understand your point and your intentions. I am sure that what you have to say is valid and important.
Unfortunately, I believe your intentions do not go in the same category as the crimes described here. They run on a different scale, so to speak.
It is justifiable to be frustrated by Ladies (and gents, mind you) who use the system to gain advantages over others and not only get away with it but even be supported for it.
But monetary or emotional distress should not be compared to maiming, scarring, slavery and, in many cases, life-threatening or life-terminating actions against a certain group of people.
I intentionally do not go into the whole men vs women advantages discussion because honestly, I don’t think it has anything to do with this list.
The question we all must ask each other is the following: What can we do to prevent such things in our own countries? Because, if we are honest with ourselves, to go abroad to forbid honor killings is useless if you have them in your own garden.
As a teacher in a socially critical area with plenty of Muslim and Islamic populace I have learnt that even a very involved school such as mine can only do so much.
I have, so far, witnessed that the life in some homes is just horrible. Boys are encouraged to become patriarchs and enforce this role by all means necessary. Girls are so very much protected by their families they don’t even KNOW what to do when they are confronted with the usual girl stuff, like flirting or how to protect themselves from boys and men who go too far.
In order to help these kids, both boys and girls, I have decided to encourage the girls to think for themselves, but not necessarily to rebel against their parents. To feel good about themselves in school matters (such as passing a test, giving the right answer) so they may find enough self-esteem to stand up for themselves. For the boys, I become the Alpha (which I have to be anyways and it’s a hard piece of work) and once I am, I try to use my authority to counteract the worst of their misbehaviour (such as hitting girl, groping them etc).
Am I perfect? No. Can I be? No. I won’t ever reach every single one of my 200 students. But I’m proud to say I’ve reached a couple. And they will not only end up with a better degree to get a job and henceforth out of the trap of joblessness and poverty, but they are also given a healthy dose of self-esteem to start off into the real life and face discrimination and the boundaries of their society in our country.
The whole problem is this: As long as society, and not government, deems such crimes as “normal” and “justified”, there is no help. What has to be done is to change society’s view.
June 12th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
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318. Mr.Crow
Let me make it clear that there is no right or wrong, these are just ideas that we use to placate ourselves that we are “good”….You think they are bad, you believe they are bad and you act and speak accordingly but that does not make it true. Perspective determines what a person thinks is right and wrong and power determines what they can do with that perspective….
****
You are so wrong that it would be funny if it wasn’t so truly evil.
Was Hitler not evil, not wrong?
Was Mussolini not evil, not wrong?
The List above has NOTHING TO DO WITH PERSPECTIVE, YOU PIECE OF EVIL SCUM.
Evil is a real, and tangible thing.
Evil is taking advantage of the weak and helpless, maiming or killing them, BECAUSE YOU CAN!!!
Yes, I know that you gave yourself a bit of wiggle room there in that last sentence. All it was though, was wiggle room. Do you think we can’t see through you? Do you think, for one second, that your act ( your “”wiggle room”) gives you some “out” in our minds?
Not in a heartbeat, scum.
The only way for evil to continue is for good people to do nothing.
Doing something doesn’t have to be something big.
Doing something can be as small as giving your lunch money to a charity which helps the victims of these atrocities…or rescues the girls or women before the atrocities can happen to them.
You don’t have to be Mother Teresa, but though she is gone, her work continues. $20.00 to her order goes a long way.
Doing something can be taking this List and making sure every member of your government has a copy, photos and all.
Doing something can be saying to evil scum “No. It’s not a matter of perspective. It’s a matter of real right, real wrong. Real good, real evil.”
No one in this world leaves it untouched. We either leave it better than we found it, stronger (if even by an iota), more beautiful, more good; Or we leave it worse off, weaker, uglier, scummier, with a little (or a lot) of evil lichen growing on the dark underbelly of some unspeakable horror.
I know which I choose.
I know which you’ve chosen. You’ve told us. Now go. Take your evil, and your attempts to persuade us that evil is a perspective, and bother us no more.
June 12th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Copper:
I find your assumption that men have been ‘forced’ into positions of providorship over time interesting as a history student, because it is my understanding that men have dictated society for quite some time in the past; that’s why women couldn’t own property, keep custody of their children (this is a 20th century advent, btw), or expect help against physical abuse.
Do you think that women would have promoted this way of life, simply so they could ’sit on their asses’? Also, keep in mind that for most of history women of all classes could expect very little help in pregnancy and childbirth (their main occupation aside from ’sitting on their asses’). Also, I think you might find it interesting to note that before the industrial revolution, peasant society had a fairly egalitarian break up of work- both men and women were in the fields, the women often doing the brunt of child raising at the same time.
I appreciate your frustration with inequality as you see it, but I still don’t see the reason why men are ‘forced’ into their roles, aside from being forced there by the society they by-and-large created. There still are laws in the books against women in combat, otherwise they would be at the front lines (and often they are by happenstance- look it up, interesting). If it had not been for the push of feminists in the 60s, who pushed for equal rights in the work place and in the armed services (along with other areas) almost NO women would be in those areas today; they would be, as you like to say, ’sitting on their asses’. I wonder what your opinion on feminism is? Do you feel that it was a step in the right direction? It would certainly seem that that would fit your argument.
I also take personal exception to your belief that many women fake rape or try to trap men with pregnancies. Yes, some women do this, but statistically, I can assure you, the number of men ‘entrapped’ by such women is infinitesimally smaller than the amount of women beaten, raped, lashed, crushed, stoned, burned, murdered, and mutilated for sexual gratification or control by men everyday. I would say that those are quite worse; after all, you can choose to leave the gold-digger, the military, even society if you choose; the women in these articles cannot leave their scars, and there is no return from death.
I find your lack of historical understanding depressing as well. You are entitled to your opinions, but I would strongly urge you to read more comprehensive social histories over military histories, as they would give a much better ‘wider picture’ for you.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
jfrater and friends:
I want to apologize to everyone (except Mr. Crow) for my rant. I sincerely meant every word but believe I let myself get somewhat out of control, in fact, I heavily edited my post because it was possibly offensive to some of the readers…maybe some of what I left still was.
If there had been some way for me to direct the rant to him personally, without involving everyone, I would have done so. I’m glad such a system does not exist, the potential for abuse would be enormous.
It was just, after seeing those photos, reading those horror stories, to have a man (Mr. Crow?) say there is no evil, it’s a matter of perspective!
I could not let that go unanswered.
I am aware this is not my List. Perhaps I had no right to behave in the manner I did, but one of the guiding principles of my life has been “when I see a wrong, I right it, to the best of my ability”.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
segue, you dont have to apologize to me, i agree with you
June 12th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
segue -
June 12th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
F@#!K, thankgod i live in Australia, excellent list in terms of how extemly bad these woman are treated in their own countries.
Segue- point well made, no need to apolagise to anyone if somethings defy your own beliefs.
June 12th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
segue: no need to apologize here – we are all allowed our opinions!
June 12th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Thank you, my friends.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
thats how we roll segue, you rule!
June 12th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Segue: You tell’em how you feel. I’ve got your “back”
June 12th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
rolling, rolling, rolling, keep these coments rolling, this web site roks, oh yeah!!!!!!
sorry, got carried away, i’m so bored at work, i think i’ll go get lunch before i become delirious.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
wouldnt want to be Mr Crow at the moment, he probably needs a Mr Hanky, BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
June 12th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
CRSN: You’re here too? Listverse obsessy?
June 12th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Yeah, i know, i have a problem that i need help with.
“Hi, My Name is CRSN, I’m a Listvgerse addict”
June 13th, 2008 at 1:58 am
Grrrrr…..
People who do this to the women deserve to be executed by:
First, the executioners are to cut the victims’ testicles then the testicles are force-fed RAW with fresh blood and semen to the woman abusers. That is their last meal. Then, they are to be nailed to a wheel that will be rolled down a steep, rough hill so the wheel’s rolling will painfully stretch their bones. They are brought to a special type of guillotine that does not behead, but it works like a saw. They are tied to a special framework above the guillotine upside down. When everything is set, the guillotine is to be set down to cut through the entire body. They will meet the most gruesome image of Satan after, and suffer ultimate pain in perdition’s flame after all they’ve been through. Bwahahaha!
June 13th, 2008 at 5:14 am
Denzell -
I am not sure if that was to help anyone.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:00 am
The reactions I’ve received have been wonderful, and have given me hope for humanity which the atrocities on the List, along with the terrible, terrible photos (which absolutely must have been included, their strength is enormous), had severely damaged, and which Mr. Crow had tried to convince us were not evil.
I could say much more. I have much to say, but I will stop now except for one piece of advice:
copperdragon – You are, very obviously, a deeply hurt, a deeply damaged man. You need to work through the anger in a more constructive manner (more constructive for yourself). Get yourself a Psychologist, a talk therapist, there are free or sliding scale therapists in every community.
I wish you luck, and a better life.
June 13th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
segue, thank you for your rant against Mr. Crow. I see I’m not the only one who agrees with you, and I feel I should add my two cents here -
Mr. Crow, I don’t give a damn if evil and good are man-made perspectives and these “morals” are hidden behind religious traditions. The culture we have now in the states came from a place just as horrible where torture, murder, and human/animal sacrifices were PART of religion – but it’s not anymore because we, as a majority, agree that lives do not need to be tortured or ended in the name of religion. In fact, I think people who kill and torture in the name of religion are using it as a shield and couldn’t care less if it was in their religious doctrines and practices.
We, as a culture, have CHANGED those beliefs and agree murder and torture are immoral – so it’s obvious they can be changed.
If you were married and had kids and your wife beat your child because it was part of her religion, would you let it keep going or would you ignore it, like you say you would in your post? Would you let your father kill your mother in the name of religion? Would you let your friend torture you in the name of religion?
I can only assume you would say no – but from your post, who the hell knows – so how is that any different than turning the other cheek to these societies?
We CAN change these wretched practices, whether or not they pertain to religion. If everyone shared your opinion, this world would revert back to the way it was centuries ago. The smallest things matter, as segue said, and even just small efforts can make a world of difference. The attitude you portrayed through your comments is horribly selfish.
June 13th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
****
338. mariesinclr
339. Tonya : (how can we block his dribble?)
****
I don’t think you can selectively block, but you can choose not to read posts by someone whose opinions distress you.
I know I do.
June 14th, 2008 at 2:37 am
This is a very haunting list. Nice work. I read this and wonder for a minute, am I ashamed of being a man ? Then I realize most of the atrocities on women are committed by women themselves, or abet taking refuge in excuses like tradition, religion or god. Having said that I am not relieved, just more saddened.
Just a pointer, Can you expand the list – dowry, female
infanticide, purdah (Imagine wearing black overalls in death valley, ca, though some people may claim it as a mark of respect),
I wish you had included – dowry, female infanticide,
June 14th, 2008 at 5:58 am
Just want to say how great it is that people can publish and publicize these kinds of atrocities to make people better aware of them. I have been reading on List Universe for a while but this is my first post. Congratulations to the creator of this list for the simple act of making people aware of these awful things. In one part (I think number 7 on the list…?) It talks of honour killing and states the various places that it occurs. Does it really happen in Germany? In this day and age it is almost unbelievable! I wish whoever does this to feel the same pain and anguish that the victims feel. I know all of the “eye for an eye” stuff that people say but i personally believe the perpertrators deserve far worse.
(p.s sorry for my awful spelling)
And thank you once again
Matt
June 14th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
How is Female Genital Cutting number 3?
June 14th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
I don’t post often on these lists, though I visit the site daily. But some of the things said in the thread made me rather upset and I felt the need to reply.
You talk about male and female circumcision being equally cruel to an unwilling child, but as evidenced by previous posters that is hardly the case. As for the comment about it being more attractive? Attractiveness hardly outweighs the risks factors. At almost eighty my grandfather is having to go through the procedure of circumcision to avoid the possibility of life-threatening cancer. My father also had to go through the procedure later in life to avoid multiple health problems. In my grandfather’s case the procedure is saving his life. Female genital mutilation (for it’s certainly not the procedure which only removes a tiny bit of skin with the baby can barely feel it) is a procedure done in back alleys, garages and caves by butchers with dull knives, glass or rocks. The most atrocious thing about this is that the procedure is often done by other women who should know the pain and humiliation this causes.
you seem to have had a bad experience with one or more women. That does not mean that your experiences and these experiences occurring to other men equal to women having battery acid and the like thrown in their faces for something like speaking to a man. Men do die in horrible ways for various reasons yes, but have you heard of a man being stoned to death because he was raped? And even if it has happened in history is it a part of daily life for some men? No.
Meanwhile, women are forced into just as many atrocities of war as male soldiers. And just because women don’t fight in the front lines now doesn’t mean that they haven’t in the past. Queens, warrior women, and the wives of plain farmers have fought as hard as men to protect their families and homes. Keeping women away from the frontlines is a modern conception.
I might not be able to do as much damage as a man to any intruder that invaded my home, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be doing all I could to help keep my family safe.
Btw “*using pregnancy to trap men financially”
Condoms go for pretty cheap nowadays. Learn to use one.
June 14th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Geddy Lee ~ They’re in no particular order.
June 15th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
wow…unfortunately, I knew about pretty much all of these crimes and then some.
And yes, this stuff does go on in the USA, and there are times the gov’t turns a blind eye to it.
When I was 10-11 years old, my uncle tried to kill me- because I wouldn’t back down from going to court against him for using me from my birth through that point as a personal sex toy and forced child prostitute. You know what happened to him? His consequence for putting me into sexual situations with well over 100 some men? He got a whole 12 months in jail. What did I get? Labeled some pretty bad things, no protection from him and others he had let use me, and a lifetime of physical and mental body damage.
I’ll agree that we’re all entitled to our opinions, but frankly, ol’ whats his name who wants to point out how bad men have it- he needs to take a reality check. Sheesh, sad to say, his attitude is the same as my uncles was.
June 15th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
SEGUE: Your tragic misunderstanding of my words saddens me.
Let it be known that i think these things are horrible. I think they are. Just because i believe they are wrong doesn’t mean they are. The people who do it don’t think it’s wrong. They can justify it and I can’t. Segue, I think that these things are horrible, that taking advantage of the weak and helpless is something that no human should ever do. But before I take action I must realize that i will be imposing my morals and beliefs on another human being. What gives me that right, why should i tell them that that is wrong, why can America stop countries from building bombs, why can adults tell children right and wrong, why can you say these things are evil? It’s because you have the power. If I had the power I would stop it. but what is real right and wrong. Different people would give different answers. that in and of itself proves it is a matter of perspective. What concrete set of right and wrong are you using. The bible, well that says slavery is okay. A moral code you made up? What says that your right and wrong are better than everyone elses. If you had the power you would judge everyone by your standards, would you not. You don’t realize that in your argument you proved my point even more. Hitler didn’t think that he was evil, neither did Mussolini for that matter. I’ll go as far to say they did what they did because they thought it was the right thing to do. Are you shocked, or is your argument that maybe they think they are good but they are all evil because the don’t have the same morals as you. Are you so arrogant to think that. I think they were evil but they didn’t. I is only from my point of view that they look evil, from my perspective. Your entire argument is based on the assumption that there is a set right and wrong for the whole world which is wrong. We could argue and insult, but that is besides the point. I want the world to be a peaceful place where everyone is treated equally and everyone is happy. But not everyone wants that and that is because from their perspective that is not a perfect world. Please just think about it, I would hate to see you become a person who assumed that everyone who has different morals is just evil and should be punished regardless of place or circumstance. Remember, even murder is okay if it is to protect ones self or another person.
June 15th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
And to all i offended, who thought I was justifying these things and saying they are all right, i am so very sorry. I hope I did not do to much harm. I should not have been so blunt without further explaining my argument. I hope you will forgive me and see the truth in my words.
June 15th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
mr crow,are you a teacher?
June 15th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
To all those who will read further posts by me. I always attempt to keep my personal beliefs out of an argument because it flaws my argument so much. I seek to tell the truth, not what I believe.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
346. Veebabe
****
Veebabe, what your uncle needs is surgical castration and an 11 year sentence in a maximum security prison, in the general population, where his crime is well advertised before his arrival.
Believe me, he’d quickly learn exactly what he’d put you through. The only difference is, he would be highly unlikely to survive his term.
Ol’ whats his name is just someone who is hurting badly, and reacting in a childish and inappropriate way, because he’s not educated enough and he doesn’t know any better.
Mr. Crow is evil incarnate.
Being entitled to an opinion doesn’t mean you *HAVE* to share it.
Veebabe, I urge you to make therapy a part of your life, if it isn’t already. You sound pretty much on the ball, so I’m sure you’ve had some. What I’m talking about is something ongoing, whether alone or group (I don’t like group, myself), so that the past never gets the chance to rob you of your today or your future.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
MPW:sorry I never give out personal information.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
you are huh? i had a teacher named Mr. Crow
June 15th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
MPW, Mr. Crow does not give out personal information because he has none to give.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
irony…
June 15th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
we already know too much
June 15th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Indeed we do.
June 15th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
i didnt like that teacher anyway
segue, how ya doing?
June 15th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Well, thank you. Busy.
If the Lakers win tonight I’ll be better.
Howz you?
June 15th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
segue,im fantastic
the Lakers will win tonite, i guaran damn tee it
June 15th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Segue: you don’t have to but please respond besides insults. As rough an argument as it is I like it, are you giving up and choosing to ignore me to keep your point of view. Do you still think I am related to Satan. Do you think my argument is totally wrong. If I am wrong, convince me, but please don’t continue to just insult me. And sharing opinions is what this place is for.
June 15th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
MPW, are you watching this game? It’s beginning to look like game 4, part 2. My daughter, the rugby player, is as rabid as I am.
Drat!
Do you realize just how great Kobe really is? It’s phenomenal. A player like him comes along once in a generation.
I’ve been a Lakers fan since 1973. Had season tickets.
Before that watched all the UCLA games…was a big Kareem Abdul Jabaar fan while he was still Lew Alcindor.
Basketball is just eloquent.
June 15th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
segue, im watching the angel game
June 15th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
rushfan~no prob! This list brought back those memories of seeing that girl before she died. I’m never going to forget that image, and the image of her and her brother lying dead in front of their own house.
veebabe~ just tell me your uncles name and I’ll have him dead at the bottom of the Mississippi river in less than an hour *wink wink*. On a serious note, no one has to suffer like that. It just makes me sick at how little people like that have to pay for the price of making someones life a living hell. I just hope your life will get better soon!
June 15th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
****
#360. MPW
the Lakers will win tonite, i guaran damn tee it
****
It was ugly, but they pulled it off.
How’d the Angels do?
June 16th, 2008 at 4:45 am
Personally, I don’t understand the extremely harsh invective directed at Mr Crow – maybe it’s just me, but I see nothing particularly problematic in attempting a philosophical approach to making a point; doesn’t mean it’ll be successful, nor that it will afford any better clarity, nor that it is intelligible…but so what?
I, too, think that perspective is a factor, to a point, in how we perceive our world and how we interact with others (if that is what Mr Crow is trying to say in amongst his somewhat confusing words). But I harldy think this view qualifies one to be classified as a “piece of evil scum”.
I was most surprised at the extent of segue’s anger, to be honest; seemed a little excessive to me…
June 16th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Segue,
I’m in counselling, have been for well over 8 years now on a weekly basis, its been a lifesaver. I don’t do groups though, they give me the heebie-jeebies.
Riya B,
Thanks for the offer *grins* Hopefully by now, he’s gone to his eternal reward. I hope before that though that he got his head out of his *ahem* and quit being a perv.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:25 am
in re: #347 by Mr Crow:
If I understand what is being said there correctly (having read it at least 5 times) is that he believes morality is a relative thing and not an absolute, and that even if we don’t agree with another culture/persons morals, we still shouldn’t interfere.
If that is the case…would that mean, Mr. Crow, that because my uncle didn’t think he was doing anything wrong by selling me to adult men to satisfy their sexual lusts that in essence, that I was ‘forcing absolute morals’ on him in trying to make him accountable for his acts?
I guess I’m part of the society where I believe there are some absolute morals. Murder is wrong…but killing in self defense isn’t murder.
And, as for your reference to the Bible allowing the owning of slaves~ yes, it was allowed. However, in the Bible several times it teaches how the Israelites were to treat their servants/slaves (in both the old and new testaments) and it was alot different than the slavery listed in this list, and even different from the way African Americans were treated during their years of slavery.
But, I digress. I don’t think this list is meant to be for religious debate and discussion, so I will hop off my Bible Soapbox now.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:49 am
kiwiboi, You know I respect your intellect and the way you handle your arguments on this list. Because I do, I am responding to your comment #366, but only in part, because to answer in the appropriate detail would take a book.
Mr. Crow is giving the people who perform the atrocities on the women and girls on the List a pass because it’s part of their culture, a matter of “perspective”. That, however, covers only the perpetrators of the actions. What about the victim’s perspective?
Take a look at the faces of the women and girls who are being subjected to, or have been subjected to, these atrocities. Do those faces reflect the calm acceptance of their pain and horror, or do those faces tell you that you are seeing just the tip of the horror in their souls and minds and bodies?
That, my friend, is NOT, perspective. That is reality.
Mr. Crow gives even Hitler a pass, because, in his own words:
“Hitler didn’t think that he was evil, neither did Mussolini for that matter. I’ll go as far to say they did what they did because they thought it was the right thing to do. Are you shocked, or is your argument that maybe they think they are good but they are all evil because the don’t have the same morals as you.”
Hitler’s perception of good or evil is a non-starter, as are, in fact, what Mr. Crow keeps referring to as “my morals”. I’m thinking about the 6 million +/- who suffered daily horror and torture and died as a direct result of his “perspective”, and the millions and millions more, family members and friends, who managed to escape and for whom the emotional pain and horror never died.
kiwiboi, take another look at the faces of the women and girls. Don’t read the articles, just stare at the photos of the faces, stare into the eyes. Don’t rush. Let the emotions wash over you and when you have done so, consider this: Is the perception of the person who carried out the act which caused this horror to happen to this woman, this girl, of more importance than the woman, or the girl?
You did not see even one quarter of the extent of my anger.
I hope I have cleared up, just enough, my reasons for exploding as I did…and that was *after* heavy editing!
June 16th, 2008 at 10:16 am
seque/kiwiboi/Mr. Crow:
What I detect, in the comments written by “Mr. Crow,” is a youth trying to sound profound. In other words, Mr. Crow is, I think, most likely some young person who has–as young people are wont to do–gotten a notion burned well into his head, (namely, moral relativism) and impressed with the seeming power of it–and thinking it very sensible and true–he comes onto this site and makes what is clearly (to we grown-ups) a reprehensible and morally vapid, infantile argument. Happens all the time. Young people tend to moralize to an extreme degree when they’ve got their teeth into some intellectual issue–regardless of whether it manifests itself in terms of them stating absolutes in regards to right and wrong–or in terms of them stating that All is Relative and that none of us has the right to judge others–no matter who, no matter where, no matter when, no matter why. Of course, in any case they speak from an utter lack of experience with the world or an inherent inability to comprehend the experience of others.
Youth, of course, is no excuse. And hence, I not only understand seque’s burst of temperament towards Mr. Crow… I agree with it to a large extent.
Now, of course I could be wrong. Mr. Crow might be some fifty- or sixty-something individual with more experience of the world under his belt than any of us have; but frankly, I doubt it. If so he’d be even more in the wrong, because someone of that age really ought to know better.
Mr. Crow–the problem with your stance on this is that it is naive in the extreme–and I’d go so far as to say *criminally* naive. It is simply not true that we are “not born” with a understanding of right and wrong–of course we are–we’re a gregarious species with the longing for membership in a social group burned deep within us. *Rules* from one group to another may vary in the detail, but at heart we respond to pain and pleasure in the same ways, from birth, regardless of who we are or where we come from. The *submission* of one group to another group’s tyrannies and brutality–in this instance females to males–may occur for this or that cultural reason(s) or other… (or the *dominance* of one group over another may be so “explained”)… but the victim rarely (if ever) submits willingly, nor is the victimizer ever spared the need to rely on brute force (in one form or another) to bring his will to bear on the victim. The women in these situations (when they are not forced into voicelessness by the suppression of their victimizers) always protest their plight when they can. Clearly, upon examination of the larger picture, we are simply dealing with the Strong victimizing the Weak. And regardless of our culture or nationality, as a species we regularly blanch at such a basic injustice.
Moral relativism is a blind alley, Mr. Crow. It has a superficial truth to it, yes–but you are taking a surface veneer of usefulness (that all cultures should be respected and understood) and extending it to the absurd (disgustingly absurd) depth of saying that there is no such thing as an absolute wrong (let alone an absolute right). In that case, I’d like to see how this would apply to your own life–would you argue that no wrong, however large or small–perpetrated by another upon you or your loved ones is to be judged as such? (Let alone punished as such).
Or to quote Dr. Johnson on this very topic, when confronted by someone who believed that good and evil were one and the same (you see? This fallacy goes back quite a while, and is nothing new): “If he does really think that there is no distinction between virtue and vice, why, sir, when he leaves our houses let us count our spoons.”
June 16th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
segue – thanks for the response. To be honest, though, I’m still having trouble reconciling Mr Crow’s comments with your calling him a “piece of evil scum” or “evil incarnate”. Whilst, admittedly, I could be wrong, I don’t get the impression that Crow is trying to justify the atrocities outlined in the list – he appears to be (in a clumsy manner) making the point that there is a social/cultural/whatever context to some of these practices. In a much less emotive list his comments would possibly go unchallenged. Moreover, what he is explicit about is that he, himself, is not condoning these practices. I totally agree with you, though, that Crow’s “logic” about Hitler and Stalin is foolish.
Randall is perfectly correct in pointing out that Crow is adopting the stance of moral relativism. Recognising that it is not a philosophical panacea, I tend towards moral relativism myself (though I see Randall is not a big fan). Then again, the great philosopher David Hume is a minor hero of mine.
Anyhows, to cut to the chase, I should be the last person to criticise someone else’s judgement of another poster (pot, kettle, black etc). So I’ll stop here before you add me to your shit-list
June 16th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Randall:
Thank you for understanding what I was attempting to say. As I have shared in other parts of the List, after a little over a decade on opiates to control the pain of my disease, my mind is not quite as sharp as it once was. My logic and language skills still exist somewhere in my mind, but I cannot pull them out as I used to.
That “Mr. Crow” was merely a youth, with no more than a very basic grasp of moral relativism, never occurred to me. How it couldn’t, I can’t imagine, but once you pointed it out, it made sense. I applaud your easily understandable comments regarding both Mr. Crow, and my reaction to him.
kiwiboi:
As you have never acted in the same way as as “Mr. Crow”, and as long as you don’t (frankly, I don’t believe you have it in you…that is a compliment, btw), you’ll never end up on my shit-list.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Randall: Thank you for responding.
I do believe the victims suffer more than any of us can possibly imagine but what I am saying, is that we can’t do much to stop it. We as a different people with a different moral code cannot punish people of a different society for crimes which in their country are perfectly fine. While I do believe something must be dome we must realize that in stopping these things we will be using our power to subject other people to our will. We believe it is for the benefit of everyone, I think it is too. The people who are forced to stop things will view as an invasion of their culture and religion. We will be like oppressors to these people. Doing such a thing would only lead to more of these acts as rebellion. I am saying that we must convince them out of their right and wrong into our right and wrong to make them stop. By the way, what people are you talking about when you say people blanch at such injustices. You are talking about human beings. A species which does more harm to itself than anything else alive, we have committed such basic injustices on a daily basis for thousands of years, it is only the moral elite, of which I am one, that is bothered by such things, others have been living with them everyday for generations. Also sorry if I come across as a starry-eyed idealistic youth, I believe strongly that these things must be stopped but before that can happen people must realize what exactly they will be doing and why.
June 16th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Mr. Crow; I understand your point, thus no rant. (The Hitler/Stalin comparison was ill-advised) I said way back in the early comments that we can only stop these practices by education. Not by force, or good wishes, but by educating the populace. We did not (some still have not) give up our foolish practices (witch burning, evil eye, lynching) until the level of education had risen high enough that most intelligent people realized that there is no such thing as witches/racial inferiority. Same with these culturally institutionalized horrors. They don’t believe they are wrong because they know no better.
Everybody wants to know what to do to help these women. There are ways;
- vote for a government that has liberal foreign aid policies. The kind that builds schools and invests in sustainable cottage industries. Or better yet, you can invest in these, I believe through The United Nations.
- vote/insist for policies that tie funding to these issues. There are ways to force some compliance.
- support The International Red Cross/Crescent. They bring education and help directly to these areas.
- Join the Peace Corps or one of the many aid groups that work in these areas. (Good chance of death if you do)
These steps will directly help, but a higher over-all standard of living coupled with a higher education level will provide long-lasting relief. They won’t believe in it any more, it won’t happen.
June 16th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
kiwiboi:
Yes, you’re right. I am no fan of moral relativism.
It’s a bankrupt philosophy of the 20th century, kiwi. The philosophy (and the century) that helped bring us untold horrors within the most brutal and terrible one hundred years of human history, bar none. Sadly I was born just past the middle of that awful century, and as such I won’t live long enough to see the human race finally get past its odious effects, as I’m sure they’re to drag on for another fifty years or so (and god help us if things get worse). I pray (something I only rarely do) that the younger people on this site, and my children, and their children–will live in a far more normal world. Of course that doesn’t mean one without violence and war–that’s hoping for too much, given what human beings are. But no more world wars and inhuman ideologies that degrade and debase human beings, forcing them to live in abject slavery. We’re already seeing a China that is slowly, grindingly heading towards freedom (via its burgeoning middle class–middle classes ever yearn for more freedom, even if at times they only take the superficial kind) and Russia, for all its silliness, will never, I think, go back to true totalitarianism. Cuba’s only a minor annoyance, and will change soon. North Korea will someday be left all alone, and then finally that tyranny too will fall.
Then only one “evil” will be left. The monumental greed and stupidity of America. But when we’ve squeezed out our last dollar and can’t buy or sell another thing… maybe we’ll wise up too, and return to our egalitarian and revolutionary values.
And then some historian of the far-flung future will write, “and so ended the age of Modernity, and so died the Moderns. They took with them almost five hundred years of unrelenting progress coupled with almost unrelenting horror and dehumanizing ideologies, and the hollow craziness of moral relativity. We today know that species, not societies, are Darwinian, and only physicalities are relative–not ideas and morals.”
And then those people will go on to commit their own stupid blunders, but at least they’ll be (one would hope) less bloody and tragic ones, than ours.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
I only hope that one day we as humans can all be judged equally as people with a single code for right and wrong. A world in which wrong doers had no place to hide. A place where societies that allowed acts of such blatant sexism, racism, and every injustice imaginable no longer existed. I can only hope, but until then we can’t go for blood as so many of you would like to. We can’t punish them for crimes which they technically did not commit. In the eyes of their nation they did no wrong. How would we like it if we were punished for treating animals badly. In our culture it is not fine, but it is allowed. We can’t punish them, we can only hope that in the future we can join as one people with one image, and we will all be held accountable. But until then we must realize the consequences of our actions. Take a page out of America’s book, meddling in foreign affairs and imposing your beliefs and ideal leads to having a holy war lead against you, no matter how right it may seem.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Until all mankind has a set moral code, morals are relative, despite all the atrocities, abuse, unfairness, and injustice it has led to.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
It’s that why they call it the “religion of peace”….
June 17th, 2008 at 2:36 am
I am glad most of these do not happen here in America,and FGM/MGM are becoming a thing of the past even though you still hear about them being done once in awhile.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:58 am
It’s a bankrupt philosophy of the 20th century, kiwi. The philosophy (and the century) that helped bring us untold horrors within the most brutal and terrible one hundred years of human history, bar none.
Randall – not sure I can agree here. On a fundamental level, relativism has been around for some hundreds of years in one form or another and is far from being “bankrupt”. If anything, it could be easily argued that absolutism is the more culpable for the events you describe. But I have a bigger problem with ascribing responsibility for actual events (China, Russia, Korea, cuba) to either philosophy – they describe a moral framework as opposed to prescriptive courses of action. Now a dogmatic moral relativist might “fit” these events into his paradigm…but he would have severe problems trying to argue that the philosophy determined or shaped these events.
Where my own affinity with relativism comes in is that I believe that “events” or “behaviour” should, to some large extent, be considered within the context of the era, culture, beliefs etc etc. of the time in which they occurred; basically, that we make personal judgements and assessments with reference to our own beliefs and values (individually or as a society) – and these change over time. In fact, I don’t think – as individuals or as cultures – we can escape this; scientific advances, enhanced education, changing religious views etc. (and a multitude of other factors) make this a dynamic process.
In any case, where I do have a problem is using relativism or absolutism as a dogma. Maybe I want my cake and eat it too, but any moral stance has its problems when taken to extremes. Whilst I do not hold with the philosophical view that there are moral absolutes, I am similarly not of the view that good = evil (which some relativism dogmatists seem to believe).
June 17th, 2008 at 3:02 am
Mr Crow – in a strange way, I was able to glean some meaning in your earlier postings. I have to say that, having read #376, you might consider quitting whilst you still have the bus fare home….
June 17th, 2008 at 8:41 am
jfrater:
what is wrong with comments now?
There seems to be an ever elongating dark-grey strip down the middle of the page, including the comments box now (why I began so far down).
Also, my last post has not shown up, yet 2 posts by someone calling itself lolz are on the comments list, both #382, both horridly outside the terms.
Something is wrong.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:51 am
jfrater:
I am having one devil of a time attempting to post to this particular thread since sometime late yesterday. I also see, because of partially overlapping posts in the middle of other posts, and post headings without visible posts on my desktop computer, yet *are* visible on my laptop computer, that it’s not just me that’s being affected. Both machine’s are being badly affected but not entirely in the identical way.
YIKES!
HELP!
June 17th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I just wanted to put in….that there are actually a LOT of similarities to FGM and circumcision of infant boys in the US. Many of the same supposed benefits to male circumcision have been proven to be false and at the same time, are also claimed to be benefits to female circumcision in other countries. Male circumcision was started in order to curb masterbation in boys/men in the victorian era because they knew it decreased sensitivity. Obviously that didnt work!!
Circumcision of both males and females is claimed to be “more hygenic” but in truth, neither is. You still need to wash your junk everyday, regardless. If anything a non-circ’d penis is cleaner, esp in an infant. Its closed and nothing gets in-like feces. Eww? Just like women, every male produces smegma (the white stuff that builds up over time) at a different rate. My non-circ’d has never had smegma, while I always seem to have some.
If you think its painless in infants, you’re an idiot. Sorry. Its actually worse for an infant, as their foreskin is attached to the glans and has to be pealed away (its been described as similar to pulling your fingernail off the nail bed), then crushed, then amputated. Most baby boys recieve zero anesthesia for this and those few that do, still have the intense pain afterwards. Its a raw wound for over a week and sits in urine and feces most of the time. Again, ew? Have you ever watched an infant circumcision? Its horrible to watch.
I’m not saying FGM isnt horrible as well, because it is!! But I find it ironic that many people who view female circumcision as so barbaric would have no issues handing over their newborn son for something that is just as bad and isnt needed. Its a cosmetic procedure, plain and simple. The AAP doesnt recommend it anymore and if you looked at the stats, only around 50% of boys in the US are even done anymore. BTW-a man is much much more likely to get breast cancer than penile cancer. And a condom works a hell of a lot better to prevent STDs (and ironically, we have the highest rate of circumcision of any developed country BY FAR and yet, our STD rates are much much higher…)
The whole article/list is wonderfully written and heartbreaking. I appreciate the work you must have put into it and hopefully it will make some people think about the world outside of their little box.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
There is absolutely no comparison between circumcision and female genital mutilation. You might want to look into it more before you make such statements. FGM is barbaric and evil. Male circumcision in the civilized world, wheter done to an infant or an older boy, bears no similarity whatsover to FGM. It clearly debatable whether it’s necessary at all, but that is simply another debate. It does not reach the level of brutality of femal genital mutilation.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
We need to stop looking at these events perpetrated by individuals and more as events by a society. Basic humans do not usually hunger for the pain and suffering and others, they also know when something that is happening is unfair and cruel. Society has no such values or instincts, it pushes people to do things they would never do on their own. Our basic right and wrong becomes irrelevant, right and wrong can be completely recreated in a society without regard for basic human instinct. Maybe a person has “instinctual right and wrong” but people sure don’t. I will agree that even societies generally agree that being kind is good, and hurting the weak is evil, but that isn’t the root of the problem. It is the ability to find reasons to justify doing things that are generally considered bad and making them good, or at least acceptable. It’s not that they don’t have a right and wrong similar to ours, it’s that they can justify things that are blatantly evil to us which makes their overall moral code very, very different from us. That is why morals depend on perspective, it is also why it will be so difficult to stop.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Islam is a basically peaceful religion, with followers that can justify evil in its name. Same as any other religion pretty much. Reality and people tend to screw up a lot of good ideas.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
First off – great list.
Second – after reading through all the posts, I’m somewhat surprised at the different attitudes certain posters have taken against certain others.
In one breath, virtually every poster has completely vilified Copperdragon to the point that he has stopped responding. From what I read, he was simply offering a different point of view.
In another breath, those same posters state that “all opinions are welcome” (rightly so), including more acidic opinions like those presented by Mr. Crow, Segue and Kiwiboi.
Am I the only one seeing the hypocritical stance? Or is it just the nature of this particular website?
June 17th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
MamaCari:
Puh-leeze. A) there’s no comparison between male circumcision and female. None. B) While it’s true that the health benefits of circumcision have been great exaggerated, it is simply not true that uncirc’ed penises are cleaner. The foreskin is a nice, big flap of skin that allows for all sorts of smeg and related crap to get in there and fester. Yes, of course, it does all come down to personal hygiene. But a simple moment’s consideration of the logistics will tell you that it’s EASIER and quicker to clean an object WITHOUT a covering than it is to clean one WITH a covering. In this sense, then, circumcision spares vast numbers of men from having to take that extra step in cleaning themselves. Lazy? Yes. A bit silly? Perhaps. But think of it from the practical viewpoint–lazy or silly it may be, but men as a gender are more likely to be a shade… lax, shall we say, on the cleanliness meter. Excising the foreskin allows a lot of men to get by with their poor habits and still remain fairly clean. Admittedly, not a great argument for circumcision, but then as I said–no one’s saying circumcision is necessary. I had a girlfriend once, though, who told me that during college she’d dated a guy for a short time who was uncirc’d. She wondered why he always seemed to smell of “pencil shavings.” Finally discovered it was his equipment, which was not as clean as it should have been. Yuck. C) The mere fact that a circumcision in an infant (let alone anyone else) is unpleasant to watch and probably ain’t no tea party for the baby is beside the point. First there’s no proof that infants suffer inordinately from circumcision, if done properly. Second, there’s certainly no memory of it, which is as close to bliss as one can get in terms of physical trauma. I was circumcised, and I certainly don’t remember it. Children go through many traumas, some big, some small. We don’t denounce them simply because they’re a tad harsh. (Would you stop cutting umbilical cords? Anesthetize infants while in the birth canal, to spare the shock? Come now). Circumcision is a small trauma which delivers a small benefit. Let’s not make it into some great horror. D) As an added benefit, it’s generally believed (I believe it) that circumcision allows the male to “hold out” longer during sex, because of the slight desensitization of the penis. This is a plus for women, in the orgasm department. (I know several women who will attest to this).
All in all, let’s not exaggerate the pluses OR the minuses of circumcision. It does little, if any harm, and provides perhaps a small benefit. Enough said.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Another excerpt from The Straight Dope:
Dear Cecil:
Recently I saw beaded skirts in an African museum labeled “worn by circumcised girls.” Since then I’ve been wondering (a) how do you circumcise a woman, (b) why would you circumcise a woman, (c) is this practice continued today, and if so, where? Also, if they cut off what I think they cut off, how does it affect a woman’s sexual response? –Lauren G., Chicago
Dear Lauren:
The same way having your feet sawed off affects your ability to polka, as any of the estimated 30 to 75 million victims of this barbaric ritual can testify. While some forms of female circumcision merely involve minor nicking of the clitoris or ritual defloration (manual breaking of the hymen), more radical forms require the complete removal of the clitoris and portions of the labia, an operation known as clitoridectomy. (So-called “Sunna” circumcision, regarded as less radical than some forms of clitoridectomy, calls for the excision of the prepuce and/or tip of the clitoris. Many Muslims believe that this practice was recommended by Muhammad.) Even more appalling is infibulation, in which the entire clitoris, the labia minora, and the labia majora are removed and the vulva is fastened shut with thorns or thread, leaving only a small opening for urination and menstruation. The woman has to be cut open before intercourse. In some cultures the clitoris is cauterized or rubbed with nettles to destroy the nerve endings.
Female circumcision is sometimes performed shortly after birth, but more commonly it is done between the ages of three and eight, often without benefit of anesthesia. Infection and other medical and psychological complications frequently result. Numerous justifications for the practice have been advanced: that it “cures” masturbation (which it does, the same way decapitation cures acne), that it ensures chastity and/or purity, and so on. Feminists argue, with considerable justification, that the real reason is patriarchal fear of female sexuality. But in many cultures female circumcision has become so ingrained that women themselves do most of the dirty work. A Ms. magazine report on the subject some years ago told the story of a little girl who begged her mother to circumcise her so she could be just like the other girls. (The mother only pretended to comply.)
Female circumcision is most prevalent in Africa and the Middle East–one survey estimated that 75 percent of Egyptian women had been subjected to it. But it has turned up from time to time in the West as well. In Victorian England, Dr. Isaac Baker Brown established a special hospital to perform clitoridectomies to cure masturbation, although public outrage forced him to shut down after a short while. In the U.S. a band of quacks led by Dr. E.H. Pratt promoted “orificial surgery,” which included not only circumcision but also forcible dilation of the anus as a cure for epilepsy, masturbation, and other ailments. No less an authority than Sigmund Freud once wrote, “The elimination of clitoral sexuality is a necessary precondition for the development of femininity.” As late as 1936 a standard pediatric textbook recommended cauterization of the clitoris to stop masturbation.
While female circumcision has largely died out in the developed countries, efforts to suppress it in the Third World have met with less success. International health agencies are reluctant to interfere in local customs, ghastly though they may be, and attempts by outsiders to stamp out the practice frequently meet with fierce resistance. In recent years, however, there have been signs that African women themselves are beginning to organize in opposition to female circumcision. African women’s groups presented statements opposing genital mutilation to various UN conferences in 1980. In Egypt, Islamic scholars were persuaded to issue a statement that “the Koran does not mention circumcision, nor is there any definite proof that the Prophet either ordered or recommended it.” What with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, though, I’m inclined to think female circumcision may be with us for years to come.
–CECIL ADAMS
June 17th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Mr. Crow:
You really need to stop. I’ve already explained to you why this nonsense about “morals depending on perspective” is wrong, regardless of how attractive a notion it appears to be. Violence is violence, and the mere fact that some societies may allow certain types of violence to be perpetrated does not mean that there is some “relative notion” of morality covering the issue.
We know that violence occurs on the streets of America every day. Muggings, shootings, robberies, physical attacks… is this “understandable” as a “moral perspective” unique to Americans? Should a European or Asian view this violence as simply a “perspective” belonging to Americans? Of course not, that would be absurd. It is simply violence–a human tendency which is to be resisted, and which, as a general practice, is in opposition to the forces that civilize and harmonize us and our societies.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Am I the only one seeing the hypocritical stance? Or is it just the nature of this particular website?
Janus – All opinions (excepting spammers, trolls and the like) are welcome. Doesn’t mean you get a free pass though; others are just as entitled to disagree with your view. That’s not hypocrisy.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Randall: Mr. Crow doesn’t need to “stop”. He is entitled to express his opinion as loudly and earnestly as you are. Your “explanations” and “opinions” are certainly thorough and authoritative sounding, but they are by no means definitive nor universally held.
Practice what you propose to preach.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Kiwiboi: the hypocrisy I see comes from those who rip others opinions without offering their own and still maintaining all opinions are welcome.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Kiwiboi: the hypocrisy I see comes from those who rip others opinions without offering their own and still maintaining all opinions are welcome.
Janus – ok, I think you are saying that whilst “all opinions are welcome”, certain responses to some postings would suggest that “not all opinions are, in fact, welcome”.
If so, then I can see appreciate your point. But, to be pragmatic about it, this is a list on an internet site which is dealing with an emotive topic; doesn’t necessarily excuse it, but it probably explains it. C’est la vie…
June 17th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Disagreeing is okay and encouraged. Condescending, holier- or smarter-than-thou attitudes (I would think) are not.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Disagreeing is okay and encouraged. Condescending, holier- or smarter-than-thou attitudes (I would think) are not.
Janus – again, it’s hard to disagree; but – as I inferred above – we have to be realistic – this is hardly the Oxford Union. If you check out Slashdot or Digg or countless other sites out there you will see the same pattern.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
kiwiboi: would you agree, then, that certain posters (by name, and I think we both know who they are) are more guilty than others of being “less than welcoming” to opposing or differing opinions?
June 17th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Janus – There are a many personality-types who frequent LV; but I would never consider somebody as being “guilty” in terms of how they conduct themselves.
And I have no interest in classifying others based on how “welcoming” they are or how they present their opinions; that’s absurd. Moreover, I am more than capable, myself, of ripping into people from time to time; but I’m thick-skinned enough to take my medicine also when somebody rips me back.
Again, Janus, I think we need to maintain perspective. As I said..this is not the Oxford Union or the Harvard Debating Society.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
kiwiboi: Fair enough. It just seemed more prevalent here than other sites, and this list in particular, so I thought I’d mention it.
Anyway, back to the topic.
IMHO
Any kind of body mutilation against a person’s will or wishes (regardless of age or gender) is atrocious.
Any kind of oppression or attack of one group by another (again, regardless of age or gender) is atrocious.
This list identified some of the more heinous acts against a particular group, but it is by no means exclusive or complete.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Janus – “this list in particular”? LOL, you got that right!
June 17th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
And we’re supposed to be talking to these people?
June 17th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Janus, you come in swinging, don’t you , guy?
Did you actually read more than 400 posts, in entirety, before posting?
If so, I’m impressed. I read them as they come in, a few at a time. I wouldn’t have the time or the patience to read them all at once!
From your comments, I get the feeling you may have misunderstood some of what went on, but that’s not a big deal. This was a very emotionally charged issue, with several things going on at the same time. It would be easy to become distracted if one was attempting to read it at one sitting.
Anyway, welcome.
Pull up a chair, and join the free for all.