Through history, as natural selection played its part in the development of modern man, many of the useful functions and parts of the human body become unnecessary. What is most fascinating is that many of these parts of the body still remain in some form so we can see the progress of evolution. This list covers the ten most significant evolutionary changes that have taken place – leaving signs behind them.
Humans get goose bumps when they are cold, frightened, angry, or in awe. Many other creatures get goose bumps for the same reason, for example this is why a cat or dog’s hair stands on end and the cause behind a porcupine’s quills raising. In cold situations, the rising hair traps air between the hairs and skin, creating insulation and warmth. In response to fear, goose bumps make an animal appear larger – hopefully scaring away the enemy. Humans no longer benefit from goose bumps and they are simply left over from our past when we were not clothed and needed to scare our own natural enemies. Natural selection removed the thick hair but left behind the mechanism for controlling it.
Jacobson’s organ is a fascinating part of animal anatomy and it tells us a lot about our own sexual history. The organ is in the nose and it is a special “smell” organ which detects pheromones (the chemical that triggers sexual desire, alarm, or information about food trails). It is this organ that allows some animals to track others for sex and to know of potential dangers. Humans are born with the Jacobson’s organ, but in early development its abilities dwindle to a point that it is useless. Once upon a time, humans would have used this organ to locate mates when communication was not possible. Single’s evenings, chat rooms, and bars have now taken its place in the process of human mate-seeking.
While many of the hangovers from our “devolved” past are visible or physical, this is not true for all. Humans have structures in their genetic make-up that were once used to produces enzymes to process vitamin C (it is called L-gulonolactone oxidase). Most other animals have this functioning DNA but at some point in our history, a mutation disbled the gene – whilst leaving behind its remnants as junk DNA. This particular junk DNA indicates a common ancestry with other species on earth, so it is particularly interesting.
Also known as the extrinsic ear muscles, the auriculares muscles are used by animals to swivel and manipulate their ears (independently of their head) in order to focus their hearing on particular sounds. Humans still have the muscles that we would once have used for the very same reason – but our muscles are now so feeble that all they can do is give our ears a little wiggle. The use of these muscles in cats is very visible (as they can nearly turn their ears completely backwards) – particularly when they are stalking a bird and need to make the smallest movements possible so as to not frighten its future meal.
The plantaris muscle is used by animals in gripping and manipulating objects with their feet – something you see with apes who seem to be able to use their feet as well as their hands. Humans have this muscle as well, but it is now so underdeveloped that it is often taken out by doctors when they need tissue for reconstruction in other parts of the body. The muscle is so unimportant to the human body that 9% of humans are now born without it.
Early humans ate a lot of plants – and they needed to eat them quickly enough that they could eat a sufficient amount in one day to get all of the nutrients they needed. For this reason, we had an extra set of molars to make the larger mouth more productive. This was particularly essential as the body lacked the ability to sufficiently digest cellulose. As evolution made its selections, our diets changed, our jaws grew appropriately smaller, and our third molars became unnecessary. Some human populations have now all but completely stopped growing wisdom teeth, while others have almost 100% likelihood of developing them.
If you watch a cat blink, you will see a white membrane cross its eye – that is called its third eyelid. It is quite a rare thing in mammals, but common in birds, reptiles, and fish. Humans have a remnant (but non-working) third eyelid (you can see it in the picture above). It has become quite small in humans, but some populations have more visible portions than others. There is only one known species of primate that still has a functioning third eyelid, and that is the Calabar angwantibo (closely related to lorises) which lives in West Africa.
Darwin’s point is found in the majority of mammals, and humans are no exception. It is most likely used to help focus sounds in animals, but it no longer has a function in humans. Only 10.4% of the human population still has this visible left-over mark of our past, but it is possible that a much larger number of people carry the gene that produces it as it does not always cause the ear tubercle to appear. The point (shown in the picture above) is a small thick nodule at the junction of the upper and middle sections of the ear.
The coccyx is the remnant of what was once a human tail. Over time we lost the need for a tail (as tree swinging was replaced by hanging out at the local water hole grunting neanderthal gossip), but we did not lose the need for the coccyx: it now functions as a support structure for various muscles and a support for a person when he sits down and leans back. The coccyx also supports the position of the anus.
The appendix has no known use in modern humans and is often removed when it becomes infected. While its original use is still speculated on, most scientists agree with Darwin’s suggestion that it once helped to process the cellulose found in the leaf-rich diet that we once had. Over the course of evolution, as our diet has changed, the appendix became less useful. What is particularly interesting is that many evolutionary theorists believe that natural selection (while removing all of the abilities of the appendix) selects larger appendices because they are less likely to become inflamed and diseased. So unlike the little toe, which may eventually vanish and is equally useless, the appendix is likely to stay with us for a long time – just hanging around doing nothing.
Contributor: JFrater















January 5th, 2009 at 2:21 am
cool list
January 5th, 2009 at 2:26 am
Well I’m sure this list won’t cause any problems…
January 5th, 2009 at 2:33 am
There’s empirical and physical evidence that humans have grown taller over the last few centuries.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:33 am
Hemza3000: the risk is always there, but regardless of whether you believe in evolution or not, these are still at least all interesting scientific looks at humans
January 5th, 2009 at 2:34 am
Great list. I expected to see the appendix and Third eyelid, but I still learned 8 new things. Thanks!
January 5th, 2009 at 2:47 am
As always, fascinating and a learning experience!
January 5th, 2009 at 2:54 am
nice list, i learn so much from this website.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:09 am
A timely list. If I remember correctly (I’m sat in front of the internet right now, and too lazy to check), in 2009 we are celebrating 150 years since the publication of On the Origin.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:34 am
this website is getting better everyday. but i think i have developed some kind of disorder…. i think its called listversis addictutitis or something… i became addicted to this website, and I selfishly hide from my friends , colleague even family, i dont want them to learn about this website and the cool trivia that it contains… I even copy from listverse and paste it on forums just to impress my friends and other people…oh my god, its getting worse, please help me, is there a cure? is there a cure? my eyes are twitching like sarah palin!!
January 5th, 2009 at 3:53 am
to #1 http://www.lockergnome.com/news/2007/10/08/appendix-isnt-useless-at-all-its-a-safe-house-for-bacteria/
January 5th, 2009 at 4:07 am
lol and still people are talking about evolution as if it some kind of fake thing. How much proof do you need….
January 5th, 2009 at 4:16 am
I can move my ears!
January 5th, 2009 at 4:17 am
Having traveled to and from the third world often (F.Y.R.O. Macedonia to be more precise)I have found that there is great use for wisdom teeth in the modern world.
In a time before prosthetic teeth, needing molars to chew, yet being so worked, many molars would rot, become cavity infested, and eventually need to be pulled out. The wisdom teeth are like a replacement for the poor.
I’m no dentist/pro in the field, but I have observed this to be the case.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:18 am
Do you know about why people have different types of feet? For some the big toe is the longest while others have longer middle toes.. Why??
January 5th, 2009 at 4:28 am
I am now througholy convinced that this is one of the best websites on the internet. btw, how long before some fundies get here? 24 hours is my bet.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:30 am
Are sufferers of listversis addictutitis less likely to breed by hiding from colleagues or friends and not meeting potential partners (hopefully not “family”!) or are they more likely to breed by impressing the pants off any potential partner that they do meet?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:35 am
Odorikakeru, i don’t know if they’re related in some way, but 2009 is also the year we “celebrate” darwin’s 200th birthday. We call it the year of Darwin in Holland (he was born on the 12th of february 1809).
I’m not sure if this is international or just a dutch thing
January 5th, 2009 at 4:57 am
mowi got it right. Scientist have found that the appendix does have a purpose. I’ve heard this several times in the last year or so.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21153898/
January 5th, 2009 at 5:01 am
I was initially going to go off the handle about darwinism v. creationism etc. However, JFray your comment (no. 4) put things in a different light. So… good list.
Darwin is already in hell, y’all know that right.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:06 am
this list isn’t accurate. god put all those things there to test us. just kidding, i’m not an idiot.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:15 am
“this list isn’t accurate. god put all those things there to test us. just kidding, i’m not an idiot.
”
Those are exactly the types of statements that I resent. Calling religious people idiots is extremely hateful. I let atheists believe whatever the hell it is they do or don’t want to believe in. Why can’t you do the same? Idiot.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:22 am
God invented the appendix to tell us when we are sinning. People who have their appendix removed when it becomes infected are commiting an abomination in the eyes of the LORD. Over 9000 sinners have their appendix removed every month, and all of them go to Hell.
Pfft, you evolutionists will say anything to try and discount the evidence you see with your own eyes! Open your Bibles and stop questioning the LORD your God! Jesus is an hero!
January 5th, 2009 at 5:31 am
all hail over mighty overlord Jesus!/GOD/Satan.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:32 am
“Those are exactly the types of statements that I resent. Calling religious people idiots is extremely hateful. I let atheists believe whatever the hell it is they do or don’t want to believe in. Why can’t you do the same? Idiot.”
Yeah, but if you don’t believe in evolution then chances are pretty high that you are an idiot.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:39 am
astraya
i believe listversis addictutitis sufferers are more likely to breed because of the huge number of people they impress… it is however unconfirmed if it is genetically passed on
January 5th, 2009 at 5:45 am
Can we please have an alternative for those of us that know evolution is just a lie?
Top 10 Signs That God Created Modern Man perhaps?
January 5th, 2009 at 5:46 am
How does “natural selection” diminish the size/effectiveness of the unnecessary parts?
Maybe the now “unnecessary parts” were once a detriment to our survival, hence those lacking or with smaller parts survived.
The descriptions simplify evolution, especially number 2. Not poking my stick at the list though, IT’S GREAT. I’m going to borrow a book on evolution! Such an interesting subject!
January 5th, 2009 at 5:48 am
oh snap!…i knew the ‘adam and eve’ shtick was unlikely..
January 5th, 2009 at 5:48 am
evolution is complete and total bullshit (dont bother replying, as i only visit comments once)
January 5th, 2009 at 5:53 am
Awesome.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:00 am
‘Evolution is just a lie’
No no no my friend. You have evolution confused with cake…… The ‘cake’ is a lie.
Evolution is just the way things happened.
FACT.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:27 am
I just loved the list! My son can wiggle his ears…but alas I can’t.
Anyone know why some people have more control over their tongue muscles than others? Being able to roll it into a tube, the cloverleaf thing, etc? What causes that?
January 5th, 2009 at 6:27 am
Excellent list Jamie. Some stuff I didn’t know. Wish I wasn’t working, I’m gonna miss the brou ha ha.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:32 am
WatDoUCare shows the type of mindset that believes in Creationism. Unthinking, closed minded, paranoid idiot.
Mond, care to get us started because i can’t think of a single example of proof that God created mankind.
Hemza3000 i also resent religious types being called idiots but belief in God is completely different to believing that the Old Testament is an accurate scientific account of exactly how the universe was created.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:46 am
stooge – how is belief in God so far removed from belief in the accuracy of te Old Testament? Belief in God is a childish superstition with no basis in fact. Why should we treat it any differently from any other delusional behaviour?
January 5th, 2009 at 6:50 am
I’m just glad God left my coccyx where it is. I appreciate it’s role in the positioning of my anus. I mean, you can’t just have your anus position in a sloppy, haphazard way. If anuses were left to their own devices, then we’d have anarchy. What if we all had anuses in different positions?
All hail the coccyx and it’s role in our daily lives!
January 5th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Most recent research is supporting the idea that the appendix is still in use as a reservoir of helpful digestive bacteria in case of catastrophic digestive infection (e. coli for example)
http://www.healthcentral.com/acid-reflux/news-190443-66.html
January 5th, 2009 at 6:54 am
One of the best signs of evolution in humans is the maintenance of the sickle cell trait in many people of African descent. Those that carry one copy of the gene that makes red blood cells the shape of a sickle/scythe have resistence to malaria. Copies of both genes for the trait are lethal, but malaria is worse, so the sickle cell gene has never died out. A great example of selective pressure for a not-so-great gene by a pathogen.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:55 am
Bucslim:
Based on the comments so far, I predict that we will have ‘anus anarchy’ for the rest of the day.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:01 am
So, wait, are you saying in number 4 that the guy/alien in Men in Black wasn’t an alien after all because he blinked two sets of eyelids? What then, was the entire point of that movie? If Will Smith doesn’t chase down a cephelapod, then he isn’t exactly qualified to be in a special division of INS. Division 6 I think it was.
Just because people have an over developed set of eyelids doesn’t make them aliens, people. The prejudice needs to stop!
January 5th, 2009 at 7:11 am
God gave us wisdom teeth so that escapees from Nazi Germany can continue to have jobs. They can continue to torture, maim and persecute anyone they want all in the name of ‘dentistry.’
Every ‘dentist’ I’ve ever been to positively revels in the agony of their patients. They tell you to never stick anything sharp in your mouth, then the first goddamn thing they do is start jabbing your tender gums with that ‘mirror’ and pokey thing. Then they shoot you up full of novicane and drill all fricken day with an evil and sadistic grin on their face.
The advertisement says ‘gentle and painless dentistry’ and by gentle they mean ‘all out butchery’ and by painless they mean, ‘I’m gonna hack this thing out with a rusty hammer and a dull chisel.’ All the while they’re hamming it up and saying shit like, “You might feel some pressure here.” and “The bleeding will stop soon.”
Bastards, all of them!
January 5th, 2009 at 7:18 am
evolution is no more a belief than gravity. it is fact regardless of what emotion you attach.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:28 am
This is a Poll…cast your votes
Who do you think is the pinnacle of human evolution?
A. John McCain
B. John McCain & Sarah Palin
C. Brad Pitt
D. Britney Spears
E. spongbob squarepants
F. someone not american/european
January 5th, 2009 at 7:35 am
Wait…why don’t we need our little toes? I thought we needed all our toes to balance.
Though come to think of it, my pointe shoes wouldn’t have hurt nearly as badly at first if I didn’t have a little toe.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:40 am
#3 I actually have two Darwin’s Points on both ears, more prominent on my left ear than my right. Wonder what that means?
January 5th, 2009 at 7:44 am
A question to #3 (Darwin’s Point)
Why do cats have those pocket-like skin-doublings on the edge of their ears?
January 5th, 2009 at 7:50 am
BLASPHEMY.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:57 am
If I have the ability to grip and manipulate things with my feet and Darwin Points on my ears does that make me a throw back on the evolutionary scale?
I am the missing link.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Freca. Awesome question. I like to play with that thing on my cats’ ears. They are not fans.
Also, I’d like my tail back please. As a two legged creature, I could use the balance.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Fantastic list – I knew 3 of them.
Just a pity not everybody sticks to the topic !
January 5th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Freca – cats have that doubly thingy on their ears so that they are more aerodynamic when you toss them out the window.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:25 am
It is amazing that there are still people in this world that believe in the fairy tale of Creation. Their simplistic views on what is “Truth” is just another sign that simple people would rather have simple answers for complex ideas. To deny the beauty of life and its complexity in changing and adapting is the true abomination. What ever force or spirit that is part of the universe is the blasphemy. It is the simplistic morons that keep arguing over whose imaginary friend is better, be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or whatever, that keeps causing all the pain in this world. Embrace the true beauty of life and the never ending growth and development of life on this planet instead or hiding in your cave waiting for an old white guy in a beard to show up and say “your an idiot for holding on to those silly fairy tales and not appreciating the life that you are part of”. Just my rant, I have had enough to idiots and zealots.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:28 am
~~SIGH~~
Why do some have to call those who believes that God created the heavens and the earth “idiots”?
Why do some have to tell those who believe in evolution that they’re going to hell?
It’s comment sections on posts such as these that make me HATE the Internet. And it’s the main reason why I never –except for this one time — comment on any post like this. Used to do it — got into huge and nasty flame wars. But it taint worth it anymore. I’d rather talk to someone face-to-face about what I beleive and why.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Love the list- I’m guessing this could have been twice the size. Sometimes I think that I’m evolutionarily advanced because I have almost no nails on my pinkie toes. It really hurt my foot modeling career.
Other times I think I’m a throwback because I have a tail. Granted, it’s in the front, and it’s not vestigial.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:33 am
I can open doors with my feet.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:33 am
creation began with the BigBangBus theory
January 5th, 2009 at 8:33 am
STL Mo – I am right there with you. There are certain sites I cannot visit anymore because the comments are so inflammatory and antagonistic. The commenters on this site actually are more reasonable than most – hopefully it stays that way, since I love Listverse.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Wow, I love how listverse just tolerates all sorts of hate speech these days. Of course, since listverse PUBLISHES that hate speech, it’s better to say that listverse PROMOTES hate speech.
Anyway, all of these “explanations” are just hiding the only real fact in this list, and the only real answer “science” can honestly give to most of the questions in the universe: we don’t know. What’s an appendix for? “Oh, it must be some evolutionary leftover.” Well, it very well could be, but how do you know? Answer: you don’t.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:42 am
“Other times I think I’m a throwback because I have a tail. Granted, it’s in the front, and it’s not vestigial.”
That made me giggle
January 5th, 2009 at 8:51 am
“Of course, since listverse PUBLISHES that hate speech, it’s better to say that listverse PROMOTES hate speech”
Disadvantage of free speech that one, you do actually have to put up with what some people say.
By-the-by I have met many Christians who could accept we were placed here by God but have been allowed to evolve (albeit not from apes, but just as the species of man).
Good list. I am intrigued though by the references to how certain percentages of the population no longer have a certain attribute. And more specifically, why some traits seem to die off quicker than other traits (and in fact how the traits really die out at all – I thought it all became junk DNA).
January 5th, 2009 at 8:53 am
STL Mo, zigra – Al Gore invented the internet just for this very purpose. This way we can all get together and bitch about each other. It allows a forum for guys like Bob to tell us we’re all haterz.
It’s a form of evolution that you’re not taking into account. Instead of being the old fogey who gets mad when your football goes into his yard or being a loudmouth jerk at a game, you can come to the internet and get your ya-ya’s out by calling everyone who disagrees with you a douchenozzle.
I don’t know about you, but instead of being repulsed by all of this, it just draws me in like a kitty skittering across a polished wood floor after a ball of yarn. I get evolutionary reminant goosebumps just thinking about it.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:53 am
When I was in 2nd grade, a classmate had the ability to wiggle his ears. I was insanely jealous. I practiced for weeks and weeks and weeks to no avail. I simply could not produce a wiggle…not even a tremble. I could, however, dislocate and relocate the knuckles of my fingers, which freaked out everyone, including Sister Petronella!
My youngest daughter has the oddest ability I’ve ever seen, discovered by her at the age of 3. She can will her nostrils closed, just like a seal! It looks absolutely bizarre.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:01 am
It was your first list on medicine right ? I liked it and it was actually first list that I already had the image in my mind what Im gonna see next. Those functionless organs are called “rudimentary Organs” in medicinal language. That Third eye thing is still common among animals (dont remember for sure but I think they were camels or eagles!) their main function is to clear the eye of the dust etc. A reasonable blow to one’s coccyx region can be lethal !
January 5th, 2009 at 9:08 am
36. bucslim – January 5th, 2009 at 6:50 am
I’m just glad God left my coccyx where it is. I appreciate it’s role in the positioning of my anus. I mean, you can’t just have your anus position in a sloppy, haphazard way. If anuses were left to their own devices, then we’d have anarchy. What if we all had anuses in different positions?
All hail the coccyx and it’s role in our daily lives!
—-
OK, I admit I copis that because it was the first comment that made me laugh on this list… However, all subsequent comments by bucslim made me laugh just as hard but I thought it might get old to copy them all. Hats off bucslim… Thanks for making my day.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Other body parts that might eventually be lost to evolution:
Ear hair
Nose hair
Ear lobes (the lower fleshy part where most earrings hang)
Eye brows (since a lot of women shave them off and paint them back on, they must not be very necessary)
January 5th, 2009 at 9:11 am
The Frog Prince
Once upon a time a billion years ago there was a frog. The frog reproduced and had tadpoles and they reproduced and had tadpoles. This continued for a billion years until one day instead of tadpoles…a human popped out. He grew up to write Purple Rain, Little Red Corvette and Raspberry Beret and called himself Prince. He lived happily ever after.
The end.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:24 am
I love this list. I also believe in God and in evolution.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:24 am
The muscle is so unimportant to the human body that 9% of humans are now born without it.
Isnt it still kinda important if 81% of people still have it? :S
January 5th, 2009 at 9:28 am
22. Mikey: I had surgery for peritonitis caused by a ruptured appendix at the age of 7. What sins could I have commited at that age?
January 5th, 2009 at 9:35 am
I dont think Mikey was being serious somehow.
That said, anyone who knows the difference between right & wrong has the capacity to sin.
If two boys under 10 can kidnap, torture and murder a 2 year old, I’m sure there are plenty other sins a child can commit.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:39 am
As this list goes, tis interesting but seems like a whole lot of “we don’t know what this stuff really does, but because other animals have something similar we’re assuming its an evolutionary knockoff”
If anything, doesn’t it kinda suggest that humans are going the opposite way and de-evolving? Is it that we “no longer need” certain things or simply that too much genetic damage has been done for everything to function as it once did. It doesn’t kill us or inhibit us but then how are we to know if we don’t even know what it would be like to fully have these things?
If everyone got a genetic defect that removed a kidney, would it mean we no longer need two?
January 5th, 2009 at 9:40 am
it took all of 21 comments before war broke out…great list. liked this one a lot
January 5th, 2009 at 9:40 am
GTT – thanks for reprinting my anus post.
Uh, . . . I read that last sentence again and it just doesn’t seem right. Didn’t a few dudes in the embarrassing deaths list die of something posted in their anuses?
Anyway, a new thought just popped into my walnut sized brain. That Darwin’s point thingy is a wrong man. Instead of posting a picture of a monkey with a pointed ear, Jfrater shoulda posted a picture of Spock. What, the Listverse now is hating Vulcans?
Sheesh, if Darwin would have just watched ‘The Squire of Gothos’ episode 17 of season one of Star Trek, all of this shit would have been sorted out much better. It’s crystal clear proof that Vulcans populated the earth millions of years ago. C’mon JFrater, do some research!
January 5th, 2009 at 10:00 am
segue, I also have a few weird abilities…one of them is that I can shake my eyeballs. I found out I could do it when my twin randomly shook them and I was like hell no she can’t have all the glory!!
BTW, to whoever said that the appendix is how God tells us we are sinners…my brother had his appendix out when he was 9, so he is a sinner? That is why I don’t like a lot of creationists, they shove their beliefs down your throat and they are often extremely hateful. How much evidence is there for evolution?, and then how much evidence is there for God?
I don’t mean to be so annoying but don’t make hurtful comments about people you don’t even know, that’s not what religion is about, it’s about LOVING thy neighbour!
(I believe in God and evolution btw)
January 5th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Very educational list.
I thought the goose bumps (#10) was one of the more interesting ones on the list.
I was just thinking though that sometimes I get goose bumps when I experience something that moves me. So if I was with my mate and she said or grunted something that moved me she would think that I was cold and afraid of her. That would be a bummer.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:06 am
copper I think eyebrow shaving is a personal preference, and I don’t think enough people do it to make it evolutionarily (not sure if that’s a word?) moot. Besides, if that was the case, they wouldn’t have to continue to shave them because they would stop growing back.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:12 am
I think the book of Romans should be renamed Appendix because Romans is where we find out that we are all sinners.
Actually the appendix thing comes up in Ephesians.
‘Lo, I have placed a part of thine body, which I formed from dust, to remind thee of thine sinfulness. Let each of you seek out dudes with sharpend schythes to remove your reminder, and sin no more. From thine lower gut, let an incision be made to retrieve the ultra sinful reminder of thine sinfulness. After two days lying prostrate and eating only of the frozen curd, let thou receive an inflated reminder of how greedy schythe wielding bastards charge for removing your sinful, non usable worm like organ. Unless thine is enrolled in a sinful HMO, then thou shall take a number to wait until called.’
I’m paraphrasing here. . . .
January 5th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Very good list on a tough subject, I enjoyed reading it. Too bad that its mostly bolgna (or boloney? , baloney?) There is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that evolution is a real concept.
I am not a religious person in any way, but evolution is a joke, just take a look at the fossil record. The fossil record is incomplete at best.
If you truly follow the fossil record instead of having anthropologists fill in the blanks with “theories” then you will realize that human beings essentially just appeared one day out of nowhere.
Do we come from apes? Of course not. Do we share 95-98 percent of our DNA with them? Sure. But we also share 90% of our DNA with a banana. Does that mean we evolved from bananas?
Anthropologists have continually falsified records and fossils to prove theories. That is a fact. Every one of them wants to be the one that discovers a new species of something or find proof of a continous time line. But guess what there is none.
A human skull is a human skull. An ape skull is an ape skull. Just because one ape skull brow line is higher or the skull is thicker or thinner or whatever, doesn’t mean that its a new species or some descendant.
Think about it. If the human race were to go extinct and aliens come 1,000,000 years from now and dig up our bones, and they find a normal skeleton and then they find Yao Ming’s skeleton. Does it mean Yao Ming is another species?? Of course not. But this is what these people want you to believe.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:28 am
great list!!
January 5th, 2009 at 10:45 am
The above comment is false! Yao Ming is an eternal and will never die, so the Aliens from a million years in the future couldn’t possibly find his skeleton.
As to the rest, you gotta go with the evidence. If you find new evidence which points to something else, great! If not, then 2+2 will remain 4 until you get more of a reason for it to be equal to 5 than ‘Because god told me so and he loves me’.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Fascinating list! I can wiggle my ears, I don’t find that to be all that interesting, just a fun thing to show to people who can’t.
I just had my wisdom teeth out 6 months ago too. I only developed 3 of them and one of the removed ones still has a huge gap. Is that normal? The other 2 closed up already…
If we lose our ear lobes, what will I hang my earrings on?? =)
January 5th, 2009 at 11:02 am
All things in moderation and live and let live. Why do we have to start taking pot shots and fundamentalists and atheists? We’re bigger than that, people.
I was told I am missing both the plantaris and the arm muscles that are missing in a small percentage of the population. It’s supposed to be an evolutionary step.
Thank you, Jamie. As someone in the medical field, I find lists like this fascinating. Great list.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:03 am
oz (13): That is true – though I believe I read that the wisdoms only become useful molars if they get a chance to move while you are still young. Having said that, I have 3 of my four wisdoms through and they are all healthy and functioning.
astraya (16): that is a good point – maybe I need to include a few boring lists so that we can ensure that natural selection does not root out listversers!
January 5th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Noisicerp (27): Natural selection ensures a larger appendix because people with smaller ones are more likely to get sick from it – potentially developing peritonitis which can kill and still does even in modern times. It is slowly breeding out the small appendices
January 5th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Rolo Tomasi:
Rolo, if ignorance was tuna fish, you’d be Chicken of the Sea.
Listen and try to allow some education to worm its way into that concrete-reinforced skull of yours.
A) there is every proof imaginable that evolution is a fact, pinhead, and said proof does not repose merely in the fossil record–which is incomplete, yes, but not a blank slate onto which you can paint your garbled, down-home gibberish. In short, the proof for evolution is interweaved amongst many disciplines and is not limited to paleontology. Microbiology alone gives us a big piece of the puzzle, which combined with evidence from various other sources, allows for a very strong supporting structure that underpins the theory. If you want to try to knock holes in it, then, you have to do better than whining about the lackings of the fossil record. This simply shows you know nuttin’–and like all such people, you would have done better to keep your fat mouth shut and try to learn something in life instead of thinking you know better than legions of trained scientists and researchers. But I know, I know… in keeping with the pattern of all self-satisfied blow-hards, wherever they may be, you wanted to show off on the internet by pretending you were “in on” the secret truth whilst the rest of us are just chumps. I know. There there.
B) The fossil record may be far from complete, and certainly the fossil record for hominids has some holes, but to say homo sapiens simply popped in out of nowhere is not only just plain wrong, but shot full of stupidity to boot. There is, in fact, a strong lineage that has been established from hominid ancestors (that are clearly NOT homo sapiens but also just as clearly are far more closely related to us than our nearest current relatives, chimpanzees) down to the form that is Us. I, as it happens, am proud of this lineage. You? Well maybe you’re embarrassed because you realize you come from the trailer trash slice of the Homo Habilis or Homo Erectus part of the pie. I don’t know.
Ah, but I forget—you believe scientists have “continually falsified records and fossils,” (which, by the way, is NOT a fact–saying it’s so don’t make it so, “Rolo”) so obviously this established lineage means nothing to you.
That you could make such an accusation with a straight face (one assumes it was so, anyway) when it is in fact patently absurd shows that you are either A) in the possession of some sort of irrational bias, despite your proclamations about “not being religious” or B) you are off your nut. Or, quite likely, you are both.
Shut up and go away and darken no further web doors with your blathering idiocy. There’s a good fella.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:11 am
For those who are saying the appendix DOES have a use (based on new research by Parker and associates), this is new research and definitely not conclusive. Furthermore, if Parker is right, this is only beneficial in poor countries with a lot of diarrhea. In the west, people who have their appendix removed have no physical impairment as a result
January 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Where’d the good lists go?
January 5th, 2009 at 11:14 am
jfrater:
Three recent excellent lists worthy of the old “Book of Lists,” pal. Nice work.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Freca (46): That soft fold on the cat’s ear is called a “tragus” and it is there to make mobility easier in the ear – which is why cats can push their ears completely flat and do other big movements with them. Humans have it too – it is the little bulb that points in to the ear from the face side – some people push it in to block out noise, rather than putting their finger directly in their ear.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Randall: Thanks
January 5th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Okay. I’ve wanted to say a couple of things about some comments here, but I was too shy to do so (that, or bucslim’s unbrittled imagination scared me away
) But I just can’t resist.
Evolution is not only real and provable, but scientists (and anyone else) can see it happening before their eyes if they want!!!
Never mind that science understands enough about biology and genetics to know that evolution is as a naturally occurring process as mitosis and reproduction. Never mind that paleontology’s study of fossils is thorough and NOT incomplete (fossils may be usually incomplete and scarce, but that doesn’t mean that the study of them is also weak). Yeah, never mind all that.
Evolution happens all the time around us!
Hard to believe, you say? Well, then, let me help you out with that…
(I’m certainly no expert, but I’ll give a couple of examples of evolution happening right in front of our noses.)
Why do you think microorganisms are able to develop drug resistance? That’s right, bacterial strains EVOLVE the resistance to drugs if the dosage of drugs are wrong! There’s no two ways about this: bacteria which survive do so because they have adapted in order to be superior and resistant. That’s the very definition of evolution!!
It’s also common for geneticists to study fruit flies. Why? Among other things, because they’ve frickin SEEN them evolve! That’s right, fruit flies have been recorded to evolve over a few decades by scientists. That’s factual.
That said, it’s also a fact that science still has a lot to learn. There’s still many things that science can’t explain. But unlike Creationists, they don’t claim they have all the answers already.
Finally, I believe in evolution AND in God. That’s not a contradiction. Everyone should have the freedom to believe whatever they want to believe. The only contradiction here is a few Fundamentalist groups ruthlessly imposing an archaic belief that promotes ignorance for the sake of keeping their churches full, and which hard modern science has proven wrong.
And I’ll stop here or we’ll never hear the end of it. (Well, either way, I’m sure we’ll never actually hear the end of it!
)
January 5th, 2009 at 11:33 am
i find it interesting that evolution with all the empirical and fundamentally proven evidence in support of it is still considered a lie. while blind faith and a story book of fables are all the evidence some people need to conclude that absolutely everything is controlled by something or someone.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:33 am
I had my appendix removed (along with my hapless gall bladder–the loss of which I strongly regret now) some five years ago.
Now. I have observed that during certain conjugal activities… ahem… with the ladies… you know what I mean… well anyway, I have observed that during such fleshy fun times, that a strange collection of mutterings, whistlings, and other odd sounds seem to emanate from the region of my midsection. Through consultation with learned colleagues here at Big Eastern University–where I am happily employed–and through further extensive communication with spiritual Buddhist teachers and masters in the High Flung Secret Realms of the Himalayas (I prep schooled with some of those guys) I have come to the conclusion that these strange sounds are coming from my pancreas, which I have been told by these great minds is a highly excitable and dirty-minded little organ that would be addicted to porn if only it could find a way to A) pay for a subscription to “Jugs” and “Cherry” magazines and B) have them somehow delivered to it within my bodily folds. Failing this, it sits there and waits and watches like the perverted voyeur that it is, and when I’m enjoying some fun time with a lady friend, it starts mumbling along like a lecherous old perv at a peep show.
The conclusion reached by my learned colleagues is that the function of the appendix is to shut the mother-f**kin’ pancreas up at such times so it does not embarrass us. A useful, if admittedly VERY arcane function. Further research is warranted.
Oh–I did ask why it couldn’t be that the gall bladder performs this function, seeing as I had mine out at the same time, as previously mentioned. Rampache Limpoch, the Low Lama of the Ramapushnuti Abbey in Kuala Lampur (I roomed with him for a year back in the old days–he was a terrible study partner in maths, not being able to keep his mind off Heather “Bunny” Sidwell–who sat two rows over from us in class–the lama had a thing for pale trust fund girls) answered (rather snootily) that everyone knows that the gall bladder’s only other function–aside from storing extra bile–is to increase our resistance to nausea when watching daytime television. Which explains why I don’t puke anymore whenever I’m forced to watch “The View” in the waiting room at my dentist’s office.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:34 am
My appendix has a use. It helps my coccyx re-align my anus. That makes my Darwin’s Points rise.
Also, I get goosebumps sometimes when I’m peeing. What does that mean?
January 5th, 2009 at 11:35 am
copperdragon (65): interesting point about brow hair – that is probably one of the few regions where the hair serves a useful purpose these days – which is to keep sweat out of our eyes when it rolls down the brow. As for the rest, I suspect (like you) that it will eventually pass away and we will look like aliens.
On a seperate note, those who are upset over the creation/evolution debate, don’t be – we all have our own views and the days are long past where people are locked up for having the “wrong” one. It is possible to believe in special creation without being angry at those who don’t, just as it is possible to believe in evolution while not hating those who don’t.
And let us not forget, the largest Christian religion in the world by a long way (Catholicism) is not fundamentalist and allows for the belief in evolution as God’s method of creating man
The two need not be mutually exclusive.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:35 am
That is to say, Creationism is something that fundamentalists want Christians and Catholics to believe is a core belief of their faith, when in fact it’s not. But don’t tell anyone, shhh……
January 5th, 2009 at 11:38 am
96. jfrater: ahh, you took the words right out of my mouth with that last paragraph. Creepy…
January 5th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Blogball (76) goose bumps also occur in situations of awe – which sounds like what you are describing
Everyone else: I think the comments about the appendix disease being for sinners was meant as tongue in cheek
January 5th, 2009 at 11:39 am
great list! very informative and fascinating.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Randall – take some Beano and you won’t have those noises coming from your midsection. You disgusting pig! Good God man, now I have that image of you wrestling around with the monobrow Planter’s Chashew chick. GHNANAAAGGGH!
And by the way, it’s “Juggs” – can’t believe you got that wrong.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:42 am
One of the best lists I have read in a long time!!! Great start to 09.
As a Christian, I have no problem with this list. I find it close minded and intolerant that there are those posting here that feel my belief in a higher power somehow makes me an ignorant, fairy tale believing, anti-science/research zealot.
How about we leave God outta this one and talk about this great list?
No one is trying to convert anyone in here one way or another…get over yourselves.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:43 am
bucslim: Thanks for the hilarious comments – they are definitely much needed in touchy topics like this
January 5th, 2009 at 11:47 am
pretty interesting list…
January 5th, 2009 at 11:48 am
86. Randall Thats great! thanks for your insult. But where is your proof dummy. “Microbiology alone gives us a big piece of the puzzle” which piece is that?? The one you didnt mention or too ignorant too know, or too lazy to look up?
“Ah, but I forget—you believe scientists have “continually falsified records and fossils,” (which, by the way, is NOT a fact–saying it’s so don’t make it so, “Rolo”) so obviously this established lineage means nothing to you. “”
So I just made that up right? How about the Piltdown Man?? If you dont believe me here is the link, you piece of crap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man
Yeah, I know… and this guy was supposed to be a “trained scientist and researcher”. Do I need to paste more links or is this enough for you.
And by the way. Watch who you call ignorant, I have a Master’s Degree from Rutgers University, what is your level of education??
Just because I choose to post a comment that is succinct doesn’t mean that I am talking out of my ass like you are. You are not fooling anyone with a fancy worded reply that is long and drawn out, but doesnt say a damn thing. Where are your facts? your empirical data?
I dont see any of that, the only thing I see is a cheapshot by some punk hiding behind a keyboard who, like many other people, thinks that by trying to sound sophisticated that they are actually saying something intelligent when they are not.
No Im not religious, yes I have taken more than a few biology and anthropology courses. When better proof comes out about evolution I will be convinced, until then dont come at me with insults and petty gripes
January 5th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Sorry guys, I wasn’t trying to stifle debate so much as comment on how in so many other sites actual debate is replaced by name-calling. In the spirit of debate, I am going to challenge Rolo Tomasi to show some data that bananas and humans share 90% of their DNA, and remind him that humans did not evolve from apes, but that we share a common ancestor. And give him a virtual dope slap for ruining my favorite L.A. Confidential reference.
Kreachure’s comment 92 is excellent.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Let me change my wording. To make myself perfectly clear. Evolution may or may not exist.
If you want to tell that some animals have gained or lost features to adapt to their environment fine. I will give you that. I am not unreasonable.
But human beings DID NOT come from chimps or apes, or bananas.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Cool, I have Darwin’s Points on my ears, I didn’t realise only 10.4% of the population had them.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Rolo Tomasi, I urge you to do some research before spouting pseudoscience and misguided “facts” that aren’t facts at all. I suggest you start your research by looking up the word “fact” in the dictionary.
Then, research how a scientific theory becomes just that, a “theory”. Read about the peer reviews, repeated experiments and scrutiny a theory has to be put through before it’s accepted and a paper is published. There are no scientific “facts” only theories because scientists are always learning and science is ever changing. The only realm of science where you can use the word “fact” is in mathematics.
After you’re done with that bit of research. Do some light reading on something called “Natural Selection”. Forget that you may have heard that things just happened by “chance” or by “accident”, these are faith based buzz-words that creationists love to use to cloud the issue and quantify their claims, which don’t even go as far as being “theory”. There was no chance involved in natural selection at all, in fact it’s far more complex than “God did it” which is a far more immature and illogical claim. Keep in mind that Evolution and Natural Selection are not the same thing, Evolution is a result of Natural Selection. This bit of research should then give you enough raw knowledge to hit up YouTube and watch some videos by people called Thunderf00t and Potholer54, just do a YouTube search for these names. Watching these brilliant and informative videos should prepare you enough for the writings of authors like Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Michael Shermer. Once you’ve perused a few of their books. Read the bible, front to back. It’s unfair to make any opinions on the beliefs of anyone unless you can understand (not necessarily agree with) their beliefs. Unfortunately, most creationists aren’t willing to take that same step.
After that, you should be educated enough to make comments regarding this topic and come to realize just how ridiculous your last comment was.
Best of luck!
Nice list jfrater!
January 5th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Interesting list. Can’t say I believe in evolution per se but it was fun to read nonetheless.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Actually, let me apologize for that – I should reach out to Rolo since obviously he has great taste in movies. That can be our common ground
January 5th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Awesome! Another Randall v ______ (insert name here) fight! Now I can put down my copy of Juggs and rubberneck the carnage!!!!
Wheeeee!!!
We used to use hip bones from tapirs to beat down the monkeys from across the tracks, now we get to see a real rumble brewing! I’m getting goosebumps (not from peeing this time)
January 5th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
‘
This is beyond foolish!!, WE DID NOT COME FROM ANIMALS! LMAO
January 5th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I lol’d at this list
January 5th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
WHY3278… ignorance is bliss. We ARE animals.
Please do just the slightest bit of research before you give an opinion on something you obviously know nothing about.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Please tell me why in animal societies the weak and and sick are left to their own devices and generally die, thus leaving the rest of the pack/herd to evolve physically stronger and smarter, whereas us humans cater to the weak and sick and stupid, even cushion the world for them, even give them awards? This is what’s slowing down evolution for the human race. That being said…great list, great comments, and I guess if we were collectively more intelligent the Rolo Tomasi’s of the world would not exist. Give him an award…lol
January 5th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
I think when I was growing up in the 70’s my dad must have beat me so much my Jacobson organ was damaged at an early age. The only pheromones I sense now come from hairy, sweaty large women. And since it’s supposed to help you detect the potential dangers in attracting such bruisers, it’s pretty much a worthless piece of shit now because I sense no danger.
Well that and the fact that the pheromones I give off usually smell like fermented baked beans and Heineken.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
It sickens me to see things like 113. Our education system is extremely poor if it lets out people who refuse to accept that they are part of nature. I would think people like that should be required to attend extra classes to remove the brainwashing which prevents them from thinking.
Regardless of religious beliefs, we are part of the animal kingdom. We are related to animals. We are not created in situ by a diety. The bible uses parables to describe it’s intent. Not fact.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
116: Aparantly you have not spent much time viewing animals.
They DO tend thier weak and sick. They just dont have as many resources available to them to do so. If you must have proof, google for the recent video of a dog which is dragging a wounded dog off a busy freeway at great risk to itself.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
buc:
I know we aren’t supposed to carry things over from other lists/forums, but your perusal of juggs proves my prediction for you in 09 came true (I hope, for your sake)
..maybe I should take my show on the road
January 5th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I hear what you say Skydiver, but it’s too funny LMAO, and why must i be ignorant becuz I dont believe what you believe??, when i said animals, i thought you were smart enough to know what i meant, but i guess not, anyway, moving on, what you consider evidence is just you desperatley searching for answers LMAO
January 5th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Bravo Randall Bravo!
I think we should nominate Rolo for the “Highest Concentration of Ignorant Statements in an Electronic Media Award.”
January 5th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
well, i do tend to view animals often, and u missed my point…the dog got hit on the highway, cause he did not know better, so will die…and eventually they will learn not to go on the highway, however humans will put up signs and guardrails on the highway warning humans that they should not cross cause its dangerous, something we should know already…so the guy ignores the signs, gets hit, and wonders why society did not do more to protect him…and perhaps sues cause there wasn’t enough signs…lol then we give him an award…hehe
January 5th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Rolo:
If you possess a Master’s from Rutgers then I’m the next United States Senator from New York–and last I checked, I ain’t Caroline Kennedy–though I used to fantasize about her quite a bit when she and I were both younger, and I had that paper route in Hyannisport.
Either that, or your Master’s is in “Marketing” or some other inane non-scholarly field—because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. So don’t try to “impress” me, clown.
And I don’t divulge personal details about myself on the internet, by the way—though clearly I could choose (if I wanted to) to simply make up a whole slew of credentials for myself. How would you know?
BUT suffice it to say that I graduated from AND currently work at institutes of higher learning that would kick Rutgers’ ass in a fight and send it home crying, you butthead. At least so says every ranking of national universities I’ve ever seen.
And yes, I possess a Master’s Degree myself–does that make you happy? What if I told you I had a degree that trumped yours? What if I told you I was a PhD and taught this shit? Would it make a difference to you? Clearly not. So get off the kick, jerk.
Now… since you chose to be disrespectful, you’ll suffer the consequences.
“Randall Thats great! thanks for your insult.”
Insults, Rolo. Insults. Plural. I didn’t serve you just one. Go back and check. And you deserved more than you got.
“But where is your proof dummy. “Microbiology alone gives us a big piece of the puzzle” which piece is that?? The one you didnt mention or too ignorant too know, or too lazy to look up?”
YOU are going to sit here and have the GALL to accuse me of being too lazy to look something up–or being too ignorant to KNOW something–when YOU are the cloudbrain that actually typed a comment stating that evolution was just a load of bullshit with zero proof underlying it? You’re going to have the gall to get at me for not GIVING you citations and links so you can go take a peek for yourself at what ANY goddamned FIRST YEAR BIOLOGY STUDENT KNOWS?
Here we have a well-supported and STRONGLY proven theory that has only grown MORE substantially obvious and correct over time, given both research and discoveries made since it was first formulated—a theory that is the MAINSTREAM of modern biology, the very backbone of it–and YOU are essentially saying that it’s nothing but a big conspiracy and a total lie. Sure. And I’m the one who’s “ignorant” here. Okay.
Take a look at Kreachure’s post up above–he was kind enough to supply a couple links for you, Rolo. But the fact is you’re capable of looking things up for yourself. Your PROBLEM is that you don’t do it. You want links and little written proofs from me or anyone else, go find them over on the thread where this was discussed by MANY of us ad nauseum, under “Your View–Should Creationism be Taught in Schools?”
Ah… but wait… you’ve since amended your foot-in-mouth statements to say that okay, maybe you’ll cop to evolution being real, but humans did NOT come from chimps or apes! Yeah, okay, Rolo.
“So I just made that up right? How about the Piltdown Man?? If you dont believe me here is the link, you piece of crap.”
That’s your only example, clearly. And thanks but no thanks, Rolo. I don’t need a Wikipedia link to Piltdown. Everybody and their grandmother has heard of it. Most famous hoax of its day or any day for that matter. Yup. And one of a number of scientific hoaxes that can be counted on ONE HAND. YOU had stated that scientists have been falsifying evidence for years, all over the place. YOU are the one who made the ridiculous statement here… an extraordinary claim if there ever WAS one. Since the rule is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I suggest you start coughing up more than just the lonely Piltdown Man.
“Do I need to paste more links or is this enough for you.”
No Rolo, it’s not enough. I need enough “links” and examples to call into question the veracity of modern biology and paleontology and about a dozen other disciplines–which is what you CLAIMED you had knowledge of.
So I suggest you get linking.
“Just because I choose to post a comment that is succinct doesn’t mean that I am talking out of my ass like you are. You are not fooling anyone with a fancy worded reply that is long and drawn out, but doesnt say a damn thing. Where are your facts? your empirical data?”
WHERE IS YOURS? YOU are the one attacking an established science, Rolo. It isn’t up to ME to sit here and offer you a parade of proofs. It’s up to YOU to offer up a parade of substantial challenges. THAT is how science works. And if you HAD in fact ever REALLY studied science, you’d KNOW that.
“No Im not religious, yes I have taken more than a few biology and anthropology courses.”
And obviously slept through all of them.
But in fact your swipes at me are–most likely–simply the redirected truth about yourself. You demand that I provide links, essays, proofs, etc. for the ESTABLISHED science that supports and in essence proves evolution and, in fact, the ascent of man biologically. Such information is available to any high school biology student. Now, it would of course be nothing for me to go around on the internet and find you a few links, moron. Would it shut you up and make a little light bulb go off in your head that would tell you you’re wrong about all this? Of course not, because if you haven’t figured that out by now, you won’t figure it out just because I did the work for you.
But since this seems to be a little sticking point for you, here–in all of five seconds, I did a quick search on the web and came up with two links. I could have easily given you dozens. I could easily send you to issues of Nature, and the New Scientist, or any number of other scholarly journals. Better still, I could send you back to the biology courses you claim to have attended and suggest that this time you pay attention.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1993/biology/bio039.htm
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/hominid.htm
January 5th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Doesn’t your ‘junk’ DNA imply something to do with your genitals?
January 5th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Oops – sorry Callie, forgot your prediction. I just wished everyone on the bus would stop staring at me.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Rolo:
The Theory of Evolution does not state that man came from apes/monkeys/whatever, but that apes/monkeys/man shared a common ancestor in the distant past. As for our genetic similarity to a banana… well, we’re all just branches off the same tree, and if you go down in time far enough, you’ll find every living thing has a common ancestor.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
oh and 113, sadtosee and sadpot whatever I’m delighted i makes you sick LOL, you should be even more sick at this list but instead you choose to believe that just becuz there are similarities that we come from them. oh yea, and trust me, you no nothing about me, im the last for that brainwash card.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Excellent!! Is there a list showing changes in other animals?
Excellent comments as well . . .
January 5th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
It’s a shame that every type of animal and plant that ever existed did not choose to die in a way that would enable it to be perfectly preserved for Rolo Tomasi as proof that evolution actually happened.
I myself find it perfectly acceptable that there are “holes” in evolution. I find it hard to believe that so many steps of human and animal evolution have survived this long anyway.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
“If you want to tell that some animals have gained or lost features to adapt to their environment fine. I will give you that. I am not unreasonable”
Isn’t that a general definiton of evolution? Don’t contradict yourself in your own post, that’s just in bad taste.
And your banana arguement is invalid and just the type of thing people desperately throw out when they don’t have facts to back up. The DNA is similar, yes, because ALL DNA in living things is similar. Bananas, humans, monkeys, craygfish, it’s just rearranged per species. However, as I understand it (I admit I’m hopeless at science..I was an english major
) The human GENOMES make us, well…human. I assure you bananas have no human genomes, Rolo. However, chimps, apes, gorillas and even house cats do have some parts/variations of human genomes in their DNA.
January 5th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Hey Guys!
jfrater- Thanks for the list and also calling it “signs” and not “facts”. More than one person has been convicted by a body of “signs” or “facts” or “evidence” or “proofs” and CONVICTED WRONGLY.
To my other Friends:
PLEASE do not confuse adaptive traits with evolution.
PLEASE remember that “facts” can point in a number of directions.
PLEASE be quick to listen- and slow to speak.
PLEASE remember that name calling is the last resort of the wrong. And we ALL might be wrong!
PLEASE Love one another!
Remember- LIFE is AMAZING!! Take more time to enjoy it!!!
January 5th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
All the degree posturing reminded me of the radio program Dr. Science – he’s not a real doctor, he has a master’s degree – in SCIENCE!
January 5th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
I had a Junior chemistry set when I was a kid and we used the magnifying glass to burn ants and other stuff. I also got pretty good grades in High School.
So it’s with that firm basis that I say evolution is wrong. Everyone who disagrees with me is going straight to Hell. So remember to eat your vegetables, take out the garbage and say your prayers.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I seem to remember reading that Will Rodgers, or perhaps Mark Twain, once said that he never let his schooling interfere with his education.
Rolo, I have forwarded your claim to have a Master’s Degree from Rutger’s University to the Dean of the School of Liberal Arts there along with a suggestion that he might want to review the school’s academic policies.
He has assured me that the school would be horribly embarressed if someone exhibiting the degree of ignorance shown in your two posts would even be allowed on campus never mind be granted any sort of degree.
There are several things you need to learn. (1) What a scientific Theory is. (2) The difference, in science, between a Theory and a Hypothesis. (3) That an exception, Piltdown Man (among others), does not represent the norm. (4) How the scientific method works.
Allow me to suggest that you make a tour of the great universities of the world, including your claimed alma mater of Rutgers, visit the science departments and see how many reputable scientists and academics you can find that do not accept the fundamental concepts of evolution.
This is not the ad popularum fallacy either. When the overwhelming majority (at last count something like 99.8%) of knowledgable, intelligent experts accept an explanation for the evidence as it is understood, then there’s a pretty darn good chance that explanation is valid.
By the way, that’s what a scientific Theory is. It is simply an explanation for some natural phenomenon based upon the evidence as we understand it. Evolution is simply an explanation for the variety of life found upon planet earth based upon the evidence we currently have.
Scientific Theories are NEVER proven. They are always tentative pending some new evidence or a better explanation for the current evidence.
There is currently lots and lots of speculation and argument within the Theory of Evolution among scientists about when, where, how and why, but there is no question about IF.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Allow me to clear up some of my previous statements. I do believe the human race has evolved over the years and I do acknowledge this to be nature’s doing. However, I believe that all existence, including nature, was created by a greater being… yes God. I also believe I have the right to believe this without being called an idiot. It’s a sad day when people get insulted for their beliefs on listverse.com. Please, all of you, show some respect to whatever an individual has chosen to believe in and leave it at that..
Can’t we all just… no I can’t say it.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Zigra #106 “Zigra #106 “I am going to challenge Rolo Tomasi to show some data that bananas and humans share 90% of their DNA, and remind him that humans did not evolve from apes, but that we share a common ancestor.”
Good point! An interesting fact about human evolution is that we share that common ancestor with chimps, but not Neanderthals. You have to go much further down the tree to find our common ancestor with them.
Here’s a question for which I’ve never had a satisfactory answer. Why do all living things have to evolve from a single source? Why couldn’t there have been multiple, slightly different simple organisms to emerge from inorganic chemicals that were somehow quickened at different locations or times?
January 5th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
YogiBarrister,
Current evolutionary theory hypothesises common decent from a single source or common ancestor.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I concur with Mr. Plow – this IS indeed one of the best lists I’ve seen on this site in quite a while.
I knew, immediately on reading the title of the list for the day, that this one would spark the old ‘creationism’ vs. ‘evolution’ debate. In that regard, I’d like to propose the following:
Let’s assert, for the sake of argument, that there exists (or existed) a power greater than any known to us at this time which created our earliest possible animal ancestors, whatever those ancestors may have been… and from that time to this day, our ancestors have evolved and branched in various ways (Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species) to create, among all others, “homo sapiens sapiens” some 250,000+ years ago.
Okay, so I realized I have not read all the comments thus far, and suspect someone may have already made valid points of their own, so I’m more than willing to take a few clovis-pointed spears and broadhead arrows if I’m all out of line here.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Hemza3000 – listen pal, everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. And it’s my right to make fun of it. OK? I’ve been called an idiot several times, and well, it’s because I’m an idiot.
But I believe that when a true idiot calls somebody smarter than he is an idiot, well it just lifts us all up to a higher plain of conscienceness.
Telling others to calm down and talk rationally in here is like telling AJ Foyt to slow down a bit.
See, I’ve just raised the bar here.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Yeah, you’ve raised it but we’re still sub-zero. You think it can’t get better than people making fun of eachother’s beliefs? I really don’t think it’s asking too much to respect eachother’s beliefs. Make fun all you want but do it with dignity.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
90 jfrater
Thank you for the explanation
January 5th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Out of curiosity, these are all examples of body parts that we still have but no longer really need. Right? Do we have any examples of body parts or things that we know without a doubt that early humans had that we no longer have?
I’m a Christian and I believe that evolution occurs on some level through ‘natural selection’. I don’t believe that we came from apes who were once fish who were once bacteria who came out of a bang from nowhere. But I do believe that through natural selection, we have adapted to our surroundings and needs. The above list to me supports my views in this sense: If humans no longer need it, why are we still born with it? Why hasn’t natural selection over the thousands or supposed hundreds of thousands of years simply bred these ‘needless’ items out of us?
January 5th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Honestly I think that those people who refuse to believe in man’s ancestry are just to arrogant to believe that they are related to monkeys and instead come from God.
Honestly, that’s the most arrogant belief I’ve ever heard in my life, and IMO that just further proves our relation to apes.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Hemza3000,
You have every right to believe whatever you want to believe.
However, you most assuredly DO NOT have the right to be exempt from criticism for believing what you believe. Even if it’s somewhat coarse criticism.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
“Why hasn’t natural selection over the thousands or supposed hundreds of thousands of years simply bred these ‘needless’ items out of us?”
Useless items take much longer to disappear than harmful ones. For example, if a squirrel is born white, it cannot camouflage itself against bark and a predator is more likely to see it, and thus its genes are totally swept off the gene pool before it can probably mate. Meanwhile, a person with an appendix is just as likely to have children as someone who doesn’t. Hence, the process is far more slower. In fact, such useless items ARE disappearing, but the human species is still in the process of doing so.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Henza3000, I don’t believe you are an idiot for believing in God. I think it may help people to adapt to a hostile environment. While I’ve seen ample evidence that proves evolution exists, proof of a god is scarcer. I choose to believe in God nevertheless, it helps me cope with the vastness of a freezing cold and nearly empty universe. Believing, or at least examining evolution scientifically, also helps people adapt. It’s more challenging to figure out how things work as opposed to blowing off the topic by saying, “God did it”.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
another awesome list! what other signs of evolution are there?
January 5th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Bluclism: Maybe you got goosebumps while you were peeing because you were ashamed at what your junk DNA had done to the size of your reproductive organs.
January 5th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Hemza3000 – no I don’t think it can get better. Just go to the Black President or Global Warming or any other ‘our view’ section and take a look at how stupid some of the stupid arguments are. It’s a stupid avalanche of ingorance and an abundance of extra chromosomes and sloped foreheads.
Look, any jagov with a keyboard can hustle in here and say ‘YOU SUCKZERS – PWND!!’ then run back to ebaum’s world to watch the squirrel on waterskis. It takes a person with my background, talent and endless wit to truely bring some smarty pants back down to the slimey pit with the rest of us. And since I’m the smartest person in here, I rarely get any back talk.
Half the reason I come in here is to watch Randall disassemble someone’s argument while calling them a senseless turd. My feeling is people need to step it up a bit and fire up that weed whacker brain and give as good as you get!
January 5th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Dre: One problem with evolution discussions is that everyone focuses on things we can easily see when really evolution is all about genetics (if you here the term “neo-Darwinism, that’s what their talking about. Darwin didn’t know about DNA per se.). See my post #38 (sorry about the self-promotion) about the gene causing sickle cell anemia. There is also a gene called CCR5delta32 that is found in about 7% of caucasians but not people of African descent. There is speculation that this gene mutation protected people against black death and was selected for and passed down. So even though you can’t see it with your eyes, that prevalence of that gene changed in the population, and that is evolution.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
I love this
Nice list, very interesting!
January 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Eeek – I meant “they’re talking about” not “their talking about”. I’m just lazy – not stupid!
January 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with YogiBarrister.
“However, you most assuredly DO NOT have the right to be exempt from criticism for believing what you believe. Even if it’s somewhat coarse criticism.”
I believe I do, who do you think you are to get to say whatever comes to mind about my religion. There are some things that are off limits. The things I believe in are absolutely none of your business, nor should you think you have the right to say whatever you can think of just because of the fact that nothing is fact in my defense.
Take your time on that last sentence.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Thank you Rambo! Finally I have an answer to that 3 inches of angry blue steel. Only now I don’t have to pay a therapist anymore.
And in that last post of mine, truely should be truly.
Your’s Turely, bucslim
January 5th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Dre,
Understand how Natural Selection supposedly works. It is most assuredly NOT intelligent. If a genetic change confers a reproductive benefit, then it will tend, over time, to allow organisms with that change to produce more offspring which have a higher probability of having that change, which in turn will produce more offspring and so on and so forth.
Eventually the “change” becomes the norm. If a change has an adverse affect upon reproductive probability, then it will tend to die out. If a change has no affect, it may or may not die out or become more common simply based upon random considerations or the luck of the draw.
Therefore a characteristic that is no longer needed, but also confers no particular reproductive disadvantage, may or may not eventually die out. There is certainly no Natural Selection imperative for it to disappear.
In other words, vestigal organs that hang around even though they have no particular function is precisely what the Theory of Evolution predicts will be the case.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
I agree with Hemza, I also believed we were a;; created by God, although we have “evolved” in some ways bla bla.
But without getting into everything and regardless of whether I believe in whatever, interesting list! :0)
January 5th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
It is well documented (but altered for the sake of acceptance) that in the time of Christ approx 26% of humans did, in fact, have tails. Jesus was not crucified for his beliefs or his claim to be the holiest, but for the fact that he had not one, but two tails. All hail the Two-tailed Jesus!!
January 5th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
My degree is in Political Science. So you may ridicule that if you want. Im no expert, but i guess i will defer to everyone else. Since there are obviously so many scientists and experts in this thread.
I admit I am wrong, evolution and natural selection are very real. Unlike some of these other *&^% , I can admit when I misspeak.
But please.. I dont think that apes/chimps eventually turned into humans. Which is what I assume most of you are getting so worked up about
So I will ask a question. and I will, with an open mind, listen to any reasonalbe answer
How come there aren’t apes or chimps turning into human beings right this second? Where are the monkeys that are bipedal and losing their hair? Where are the half man half ape creatures? I’m not being sarcastic, this is a legitimate question I have.
If there is a clear answer than I will definitely consider joining the other side.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Hemza3000,
You said.
“The things I believe in are absolutely none of your business, nor should you think you have the right to say whatever you can think of just because of the fact that nothing is fact in my defense.
Take your time on that last sentence.”
I’m not even sure what that last sentence means. But I will say this. You’re 100% percent correct IF your beliefs are kept private.
But, and here’s the big but, as soon as you put them in the public square, they are open to criticism. As soon as you put them in the public square, especially if they are used as a justification for any of a number of things from limiting someones free speech (which you’re sort of attempting to do aren’t you) to outlawing gay marriage (which you may or may not care about, it’s just an example), then they become everyone’s business.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Dear sweet Rolo,
Thank you.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Anyone else here wondering why Rutgers University gives out Masters Degrees to someone who can’s spell or use punctuation worth a shit?
January 5th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
lol. good one. If you enjoy controversial topics check out my latest list:
http://listverse.com/crime/top-10-cases-of-human-cannibalism/
As usual. Its chock full of opinion and bias.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Guess I ruined my last post by f’n up my own spelling. . . guess that proves my earlier comment about me being an idiot.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
from what i have read so far, it doesn’t seem possible to rationally disagree on this topic. for the “scientific” minds out there, is it possible for a person to disagree with the evolutionary theory and yet still be “rational”?
January 5th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Rolo – I know you are not real and live only in the imagination of Sargeant Edmund Exley. But I will use my knowledge of you to trap my murderous lieutenant. Love, Jack Vincennes
January 5th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
why dont you give me a break. Im at work. I dont have time to correct all my punctuation. If I was some internet troll who has nothing better to do. Than maybe everything would be grammatically correct to the point of perfection. I guess that makes me some sort of ignoramus.
By the way you misspelled the word can’t. Fool.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
#75 DC – I can do that too! Used to do it a lot when I was a kid and freaked everyone out.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
All of your wonderfull comments are noted. Thank you for your participation. May the Two-tailed Jesus bless you all.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Rolo-
Political science is more politics than science. Go over to the “who should be the next president thread” and have a jolly time.
I see you’ve dropped your banana argument pretty quickly. First evolution is a silly concept. Then it may exist. Now it does exist. Why, Rolo…you’ve evolved! Imagine that.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Bah that posted without me being done.
Explain to me, if you now believe in evolution, and see the OBVIOUS similarities to humans and chimps, both physically and in our genetic makeup, where or what exactly you think humans evolved from?
January 5th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Just doin my job here Rolo. No hard feelings.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Why are people giving Rolo a hard time simply for asking a question?
January 5th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
@ Zigra in post 152:
Although I never heard of that example, that still fits into my world view. Like I said, I do believe in evolution in that sense, that genes mutate for self-preservation and things like that. But I don’t see how that means God isn’t in the picture still. If I believe God was powerful and brilliant enough to design and create us and everything, then I also believe he was brilliant and omnipotent enough to have the foresight to give us the ability to naturally select and ‘mutate’ over time to adapt to our surroundings and environments. No?
@ Alencon in #157
When you say that natural selection is not ‘intelligent’, is that kind of a subtle way of saying intelligent design is faulty? I’m not a proponent of intelligent design or creationism because i’ve never really researched what their views are.
Thanks for your explanation though on natural selection. But to be honnest I find it kind of hard to follow/understand. Is there an example you can give to flesh out your explanation a bit more from an animal or from humans?
And to others, I’m still wondering if there are any muscles or bones that we know early human beings had wihtout a doubt that we don’t have anymore.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
hemza. You and your question must leave at once.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Rolo Tomasi (160) – One thing I’ve learned is that evolving creatures tend to become more and more dissimilar than similar. Convergence of two separate species/Genuses is even more rare than parallel evolution from an earlier split.
Truth be told, there are certain ape/chimp species that DO act socially and/or ‘technically’ more like humans than their counterparts. There are a number of examples, but I don’t really have time to note them… you can search on social behavior and tool use among apes/chimps, and there should be plenty to glean. Some apes do in fact go prematurely bald… isn’t nature grand!?
January 5th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
honest. h-o-n-e-s-t. honest
January 5th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Rolo Tomasi:
I’m sorry, but I just cannot believe anyone possesses a Master’s Degree in ANYTHING—even Poli Sci—and doesn’t know BY NOW that evolutionary biology has NEVER claimed that our species, homo sapiens, and its hominid ancestors evolved from CHIMPS or other currently existing species of great ape.
That is the kind of mistake that uneducated people have made since Darwin first published Origin of Species. It’s *somewhat* excusable when we’re talking about someone who’s uneducated–though again, by now, after this kind of thing has been covered in HIGH SCHOOL biology classes since god knows when–I’d hardly call it excusable–but at ANY rate…
For someone who claims to be educated–who claims to possess a Baccalaureate degree–LET ALONE a Master’s–well maybe it’s just because I work in higher education and have taught myself, but Jesus H. Christ…
If you’re telling the truth, Rolo, and you really did get that degree—then I’m telling you the god’s honest truth–you didn’t EARN it. And Rutgers should be ashamed for having it awarded it to you. And your high school should be ashamed of graduating you, and your college, wherever you got your Bachelor’s, should also be ashamed.
For someone to get that far in the educational system and NOT know this very basic thing–it just boggles my mind.
It would be one thing if you were some home-schooled religious nut who spent six hours in church every Sunday and was brought up to believe that every single word of the Bible is literally true—and you then went to some godawful “institution” like Liberty University…
Well never mind. I don’t know what more to say about all that.
Fine then. Listen.
Evolutionary theory does not claim that mankind and its ancestors descended from chimps, gorillas, bonobos, or orangutans, or any other currently-extant species of primate. Okay? It never has claimed that. RATHER what it says is that we primates share, FAR BACK in the family tree, a common ancestor. Current theory states, from the evidence gathered over decades, that OUR branch of the tree split from the chimpanzee branch (they are our closest living relatives) anywhere from 8-15 million years ago. Some scientists support the lower number, but my understanding is that a larger number, due to a stronger interpretation of the evidence, support the higher number.
At any rate, this does NOT mean that we “descended” from chimps. What it means is that we once had a common ancestor, and that ancestor gave birth to BOTH lines of specie–OURS and the chimps. Last I knew there was evidence that this common ancestor had even been firmly identified, but I’m not that in touch with the latest news on this.
Anyway, to DENY this is just silly. We share MORE genetic characteristics with chimps than ANY OTHER species on the planet. CLEARLY we are closely related, and by the theory of evolution, we therefore CLEARLY had a common ancestor at some point. The question is when and what that ancestor was. That’s all.
I frankly don’t understand what your problem with this could possibly be—or what anyone’s problem with it could be.
As for your other question… as to why there are no apes turning into human beings right now… good god. I’m still floored. But fine, again, I’ll answer it. The reason is, again, that NO ONE has ever claimed that the apes currently existing alongside our species developed into US. WE evolved on a separate line and are RELATED to the other primates on earth–but that again ONLY means that we share ancestry WITH them—NOT that we came FROM them.
Are other apes currently evolving? Maybe. Evolution is an achingly slow process brought on by adaptation, selection, and mutation. Most mutations don’t work. Occasionally one comes along that works as good or better than the original model, and if that mutation can successfully breed it may continue. In the case of the great apes, this does NOT mean that they would or could mutate into anything like “us.” OUR current make-up and appearance, etc. is due to chance (or, if religious folk prefer, god’s selective intervention into our evolution). Your question in regards to apes is no more sensible than if you asked it about lobsters–the reason there are no apes evolving into half-humans is the same that there are no lobsters evolving into lobster-men. Now, sure, if an ape were to evolve bipedalism and such, they might end up looking and acting a lot like us—but that’s because of our close physical construct and certain shared general traits. But the LIKELIHOOD that they would end up so isn’t much better than that lobster managing it.
Should apes evolve in some fashion, then it will be in ways that further them as a species–it might not necessarily mean greater intelligence or bipedalism or anything of that sort. It might simply mean that they became more successful at adapting to changing habitats, or they become stronger, or gain keener eyesight, or what have you.
Do you understand?
January 5th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Randall. If I wanted to read a novel, I would just turn my sister and ask her what she is reading. Then throw her out of the bed.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
How about some more humor: In the movie Gettysburg, Longstreet, Pickett and Pickett’s three bridage commanders discuss Darwin’s book. They argue back and fourth until Pickett says:
“Sirs, perhaps there are those among you who believe you are descended from a ape. I suppose there may even be those among you who believe that I am descended from a ape. But I challenge the man to step forward who believes that General Robert E. Lee is descended from an ape.”
To which Armistead replies: “All the world trembles before your towering intellect, George.”
January 5th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Dre,
I believe in both God and evolution, and it seems like you are trying to make sense of the world just like how I am, although in a slightly different way, and that’s great. I appreciate thoughtfulness even if the thoughts lead to different conclusions than mine. More to the point for me in my post is that when people hear the word “evolution” they think of apes turning into men. Evolution encompasses much more than that.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Isn’t it past some little asshole’s bed time?
January 5th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
“How come there aren’t apes or chimps turning into human beings right this second? Where are the monkeys that are bipedal and losing their hair? Where are the half man half ape creatures? I’m not being sarcastic, this is a legitimate question I have.”
Rolo, many people think that human beings are the pinnacle of evolution, and that apes etc. should be evolving into us. This is just not the case- they are just as “evolved” as we are. Their ancestors just took a different path to get to 2009. They, like everything else, are evolving, and (most believe) natural selection will guide them in that process.
As for man-apes, or missing links… unless you believe in Sasquatch, any cousins of homo sapien have been killed off/naturally de-selected. We are just better at survival than they were.
Not that I’m an expert or anything. A couple evolution courses and some biology courses go a long way.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
I am willing to concede that we evolve within our own species. Meaning, as a species we might become taller, faster, stronger, more adept at certain things and these changes seem to come from within.
Ridicule me, insult me, I don’t care. I believe human beings were created by a higher being and placed on earth sometime in the not so recent past. There I said it. I wanted to leave God out of it but I guess I can’t.
I you are atheist. That’s your prerogative. If you believe in both than thats fine too. But one thing I am not is a creationist in the traditional sense. I just think that the argument that we evolved from apes is flawed. If we evolved from a common ancestor it still implies that we were animals at some point.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
To #65:
I doubt evolution would ever erase eye-brows because human’s need eyebrows to define emotion.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
I read half the list before going to school, and all day i was looking forward to reading the rest of it. haha, listverse keeps getting better, i love the last couple lists, they are awesome.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
whenever i feel too lazy to bend and pick something off the floor i use my feet
January 5th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Which is harder to believe?
1. Man evolved over a score of millenia from apes.
2. Man evolved in one single step from clay into his present form.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Randall. Please stop cutting, pasting, and modifying Wiki articles and please keep the cursing to a minimum.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
My last sentence was misleading – I will reiterate that apes did not evolve into humans.
And humans are animals.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Rolo: Please pay close attention. This is the stuff most 3rd graders have learned.
There are 5 main classifications of living things, one of which I assume you belong to. They are: Monera, Protista, Fungi, Plantae, Animalia. Can you guess in which you reside?
Animalia are those of a multicellular form with specialized eukaryotic cells; have their own means of locomotion.
Man is, was, and forever shall be an animal.
January 5th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I think when god made us out of clay,
January 5th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
wow, alot of debate! wicked list though
January 5th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Rolo: If you concede that there are genetic changes that are happening that cause animals to evolve within the species, and evolutionary biology has determined that these processes are the same ones that cause a new species to arise, what process is there in place to stop one species from giving rise to another?
Since you concede that microevolution occurs, I don’t understand what about the process makes you believe macroevolution couldn’t occur. I am not trying to ridicule you here, but I *would* like to know what kind of reading you’ve done on evolutionary theory.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
I’m trying to undertand Randall. But im not very fluent in asshole.
Because you are more informed about Darwin doesn’t mean you are any smarter than I am. I resent anyone who is coward enough to insult someone through a computer. If we were sitting in the same room, you know you would never speak to anyone let alone some one who is probably twice your size in that disrespectful manner.
There are ways to disagree you asshole. I never once insulted someone directly until some douchebag named Randall came around.
Ok. We DID NOT EVOLVE FROM CHIMPS. We came from a COMMON ANCESTOR. I understand. But you are still saying we evolved from some kind of animal. Right? That is the only thing that I disagree with.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
I’m sorry, but I just cannot believe anyone possesses a Master’s Degree in ANYTHING—even Poli Sci—and doesn’t know BY NOW that evolutionary biology has NEVER claimed that our species, homo sapiens, and its hominid ancestors evolved from CHIMPS or other currently existing species of great ape.
That is the kind of mistake that uneducated people have made since Darwin first published Origin of Species. It’s *somewhat* excusable when we’re talking about someone who’s uneducated–though again, by now, after this kind of thing has been covered in HIGH SCHOOL biology classes since god knows when–I’d hardly call it excusable–but at ANY rate…
For someone who claims to be educated–who claims to possess a Baccalaureate degree–LET ALONE a Master’s–well maybe it’s just because I work in higher education and have taught myself, but Jesus H. Christ…
If you’re telling the truth, Rolo, and you really did get that degree—then I’m telling you the god’s honest truth–you didn’t EARN it. And Rutgers should be ashamed for having it awarded it to you. And your high school should be ashamed of graduating you, and your college, wherever you got your Bachelor’s, should also be ashamed.
For someone to get that far in the educational system and NOT know this very basic thing–it just boggles my mind.
It would be one thing if you were some home-schooled religious nut who spent six hours in church every Sunday and was brought up to believe that every single word of the Bible is literally true—and you then went to some godawful “institution” like Liberty University…
Well never mind. I don’t know what more to say about all that.
Fine then. Listen.
Evolutionary theory does not claim that mankind and its ancestors descended from chimps, gorillas, bonobos, or orangutans, or any other currently-extant species of primate. Okay? It never has claimed that. RATHER what it says is that we primates share, FAR BACK in the family tree, a common ancestor. Current theory states, from the evidence gathered over decades, that OUR branch of the tree split from the chimpanzee branch (they are our closest living relatives) anywhere from 8-15 million years ago. Some scientists support the lower number, but my understanding is that a larger number, due to a stronger interpretation of the evidence, support the higher number.
At any rate, this does NOT mean that we “descended” from chimps. What it means is that we once had a common ancestor, and that ancestor gave birth to BOTH lines of specie–OURS and the chimps. Last I knew there was evidence that this common ancestor had even been firmly identified, but I’m not that in touch with the latest news on this.
Anyway, to DENY this is just silly. We share MORE genetic characteristics with chimps than ANY OTHER species on the planet. CLEARLY we are closely related, and by the theory of evolution, we therefore CLEARLY had a common ancestor at some point. The question is when and what that ancestor was. That’s all.
I frankly don’t understand what your problem with this could possibly be—or what anyone’s problem with it could be.
As for your other question… as to why there are no apes turning into human beings right now… good god. I’m still floored. But fine, again, I’ll answer it. The reason is, again, that NO ONE has ever claimed that the apes currently existing alongside our species developed into US. WE evolved on a separate line and are RELATED to the other primates on earth–but that again ONLY means that we share ancestry WITH them—NOT that we came FROM them.
Are other apes currently evolving? Maybe. Evolution is an achingly slow process brought on by adaptation, selection, and mutation. Most mutations don’t work. Occasionally one comes along that works as good or better than the original model, and if that mutation can successfully breed it may continue. In the case of the great apes, this does NOT mean that they would or could mutate into anything like “us.” OUR current make-up and appearance, etc. is due to chance (or, if religious folk prefer, god’s selective intervention into our evolution). Your question in regards to apes is no more sensible than if you asked it about lobsters–the reason there are no apes evolving into half-humans is the same that there are no lobsters evolving into lobster-men. Now, sure, if an ape were to evolve bipedalism and such, they might end up looking and acting a lot like us—but that’s because of our close physical construct and certain shared general traits. But the LIKELIHOOD that they would end up so isn’t much better than that lobster managing it.
Should apes evolve in some fashion, then it will be in ways that further them as a species–it might not necessarily mean greater intelligence or bipedalism or anything of that sort. It might simply mean that they became more successful at adapting to changing habitats, or they become stronger, or gain keener eyesight, or what have you.
Do you understand? No….wait….I’m a complete failure to my entire family. I’m only online because my wife left me and my parents resent me. I will go and die now.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Daddy247:
Little trolls like you are pathetic. And here, I’m giving you the attention you so obviously crave. But one would think that instead of trying out failing one liners on a web site where adults are having conversations, you’d be better served by getting out to live your life, find a girl, etc. Me, I’ve done all that stuff, many times over, and continue to do so. I have no doubt that your life experiences are far, far more lacking.
If you think I borrow or steal anything from Wikipedia or any other source on the ‘net, bully for you, you little prick. I invite you to prove it or offer up even the slightest bit of evidence for it. In fact, I got my knowledge from years of study and education, from reading BOOKS and earning credentials at various accredited institutions.
The thing is, usually when someone on this site doesn’t like what I have to say, they come after me for it, and oh well–that’s just an argument for me to take on. But to be accused, even tongue in cheek, of taking ANYTHING from Wikipedia–which I have about two points above ZERO respect for as an authority–that irks me.
So tell you what, kid… if you have something serious to say to me, then out with it. Otherwise, go pester someone else… or better yet, get your lazy ass out of that chair and go outside and kick a soccer ball around or something. Just some fatherly advice from an elder who doesn’t really care, but is trying to be kinder to you than you deserve.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Daddy247, the whole witty one-liner schtick is getting really old. Be gone.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
jfrater:
Jamie: Can you do something about this post #198? Thanks.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
128. WHY3278 : I am still trying to figure out what you meant to say… Please remember that on this site, we post in ENGLISH.
Oh sorry… Was that too catty? I just couldnt resist… (It´s been a tough day at work and I needed to vent…
)
January 5th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Did that daddy guy hurt your feelings, Randall?
January 5th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Rolo Tomasi:
I’m not the only one here who’s calling you out on this Rolo, so get off that kick.
“Because you are more informed about Darwin doesn’t mean you are any smarter than I am.”
Well, it’s debatable as to how one defines “smarter.” I personally am not trying to claim that I am “smarter” than you, Rolo. That was not my intent. However, given that all things are more or less equal, I think it’s rather obvious that you have been lacking in curiosity and a willingness to investigate facts and open up your mind to them.
“I resent anyone who is coward enough to insult someone through a computer.”
And I STRONGLY resent someone who claims be to be a product of the higher education system of our civilization and makes the outrageous, absurd statements YOU have made.
“If we were sitting in the same room, you know you would never speak to anyone let alone some one who is probably twice your size in that disrespectful manner.”
In fact, I would, Rolo. And I’d be interested to know how it is you assume that you are “twice my size,” and interested in your theories how, even if that were so, it would make you *right* in your statements. Are you saying that the bigger guy gets to decide what is right and wrong, now?
“Ok. We DID NOT EVOLVE FROM CHIMPS. We came from a COMMON ANCESTOR. I understand. But you are still saying we evolved from some kind of animal. Right? That is the only thing that I disagree with.”
Disagree with it all you like; scientifically you haven’t a leg to stand on, to do so.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
I agree a lot with STL Mo. Just because we have different opinions doesn’t mean we have to act like a buntch of a-holes and either damning them to hell or degrading them. Live and let live i say.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Stop it. Posing as another poster in order to put words in his mouth is very bad form.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Allright, that was a new level of low Daddy. I’m gonna stop posting now. Enjoy.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Ok. See. post # 204. That is how you respectfully disagree. Your tone in the last post is an excellent guideline of what your future posts should resemble when ever you take the opposite side of a very controversial topic.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Nice List.
oh, and am I the only person who realizes that evolution doesn’t disprove religion?
You people keep trying to start shit with religious folk, or the religious folk go on rants about how evolution doesn’t exist, but depending on your religion or how you interpret it, evolution fits in fine.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Daddy247…9/10 on the troll.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Skiffo:
Nope. I know that evolution can nicely fit within the genesis idea. Unfortunately though there are those within religion (not talking of anyone here, just people i work with) who hold that the bible is strictly literal and they will not accept anything which is not word for word written out within the bible.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
January 5th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
@ amandalia47: it’s because of our ability to post without registering, you can put in any name you like & create a post. Most people who frequent here are mature enough not to try & fake that they are another poster,but obviously someone is screwing around here. Trying to impersonate the site owner (post 213) is incredibly stupid, btw.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
This isn’t the real bucslim either. The real bucslim is off working up a batch of junk DNA.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Thanks DK, I thought it might be something like that, but I found it kind of weird that the fake comments are highlighted in green just like my comments are! Scary! Yeah, saw #213 myself… I wonder if the real jfrater has seen that yet
January 5th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I think the most interesting and convincing evidence for evolution comes from human/animal fetuses. Most fetuses, including birds, reptiles, mammals, etc., look exactly the same for the first few weeks of devlopment. Humans have tails, webbed fingers/toes, and many other evolutionary traits.
As for the big debate that’s inevitably happening… I hate the ideas of creationism and religion in general, but everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. However, it is EXTREMELY ignorant to say that you “don’t believe in evolution”. Evolution is a proven fact. It can occur in mere years and has been observed to do so in labs as well as nature. You can dispute the origin of the universe if you would like, but refuting evolution will not help your credibility.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Personally I think this is an interesting list. For the record I believe that man was created by God, but the how is a little hazy. I also know that evolution is a (and I wish I could underline this) a theory. I don’t claim that God’s creation (note I am not refering to that pseudo-science of creationism which has sooo many holes in it it hurts my brain) of man doesn’t have holes in it but it is a belief and thus hard to verify (and so is evolution for that matter). Science hasn’t really proven that random chaos out of the blue, in the course of millions of years, created the thing we know as man. I also don’t claim to have a masters or a degree in anything related to biology. However, I have a basic knowledge of the idea (thank goodness for all the wacky creationism that was thrust down my throat as a kid. All the holes I saw in it as a child, made me do a little self-education on the topic) and thats enough to know that the theory of evolution, is a likely event based on things like junk DNA, muscles that don’t do anything anymore etc. However, it is not a certain thing, and those who adhere to it should be aware of that fact.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
I’m gonna shut my stupid face right now.
January 5th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Sorry, folks. I just don’t know when to shut up, do I?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
I wonder if the name-copying trend is just one person, or a whole group of morons with nothin worthwhile to say and no lives? It’s too bad we don’t have a way to filter these trolls.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
one of the things I like about the comments section of this site was the air of civility.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
197. Rolo Tomasi:
I´m not trying to offend, fight or otherwise harass you but you should really refer to post 193 by foebea. We not only evolved from some type of animal, we still are animals, mammals in fact. I´m guessing you´re referring to the furry-all-over kind of animal (and still, we fit that too, look at your arms, legs and the chests and backs of some men)…
January 5th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Jamie – might I respectfully suggest you close comments to this post?
It’s degenerated into a monkey-poo-flinging contest.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
@Amandalia47: Yeah, Apparently I’m now victim to the idiot as well (226 wasn’t me…the post doesn’t even make sense since I’m a girl). If Jamie hasn’t seen that particular post yet, he will soon, I used the “Report Abuse” button to draw moderator’s attention to it.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Wait. Hell, yeah I’m gonna offend!
January 5th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
“I also know that evolution is a (and I wish I could underline this) a theory.”
In science terms, a theory isn’t the same of proposing an idea that seems to fit. That is a hypothesis. A hypothesis is considered a theory when there is OVERWHELMING evidence to support it, that it may as well be fact (of course, you can never prove something in science). The Theory of Evolution is just as much of a fact as the Theory of Gravity, yet I never see anyone dispute the Theory of Gravity as “a theory” for “God made the pen fall because He wanted it to.”
Honestly, IMO they’re the same.
Also, I’d like to bring up the fact – and yes, I mean t he fact – that in ancient Hebrew terms, seven meant infinity. Genesis isn’t the only example.
Matthew 18:21, 22 Peter asks Jesus
“How many times shall I forgive my brother? Seven times?”
And Jesus said
“not seven times but seventy times seven.”
Were Matthew and Jesus implying for you to do the math? No! They implied to ALWAYS and FOREVER forgive. I think this was what Genesis was trying to convey; That God created the world in a long period of time and the *forever* aspect of it means that He is STILL creating it, hence, evolution.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Ugh, I meant Peter, not Matthew towards the end, yeah.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Reyairia-I’d never heard about the “7 meant infinity” thing, but I like it. I personally believe in both God & Evolution (*gasp*), I’ve felt for quite some time that there’s got to be a way for both to work together, and this bit of info you’ve given helps me to “figure it out” thanks!
January 5th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Post currently number 205 starting “Did that daddy guy” was not me, just fyi. It seems as though the numbers have been offset a little as well. I think this comment thread is broken.
Okay everyone, move to the next list!
January 5th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
DK- the irony of it all is that I’m an atheist. I was raised a Catholic, by a Catholic mother who taught me all this, and it’s partly why I dislike creationism so much; because even the bible makes sense of evolution.
People can believe what they want to believe, but when they try to interfere with science when they don’t even know their own material well, it’s ridiculous. This is why I have such a strong beef against creationists, another is that I want to actually study evolution.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Hi! It’s now early morning in Korea, and I’m checking out the discussion. Has anything happened here while I was sleeping? (yawns, scrolls through 242 comments)
jf: this one kind of exploded!
January 5th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Gosh, 10 more comments just I was typing a fairly small comment.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
someone should do a study…where thery take the average number of words in the first few comments and compare them with the ones at the end….i’m sure there’d be some correlation from where the comment is and how many words are used on average. (seriously, scroll from the top to bottom on any of the comments and you’ll see them magically grow!!!)
The comments always begin with the one liner cool/nice list comments, and end somewhere around a debate between who sucks more or whether or not god exists/evolution/etc. etc. yadda yadda yadda.
Then a new list is posted, and it starts all over again!
TG for List Universe!!!
January 5th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
So here’s a serious topically-related question…
In the last 100-150 years, black African-American men (and some women) who were brought to American as slaves, have
1) evolved, OR
2) by process of natural selection
have become stronger, larger and to some degree faster, than their white counterparts or their tribal relatives who stayed behind?
If it was just a matter of exercise and working long hours in the fields, it would have only lasted a generation or three, but today a large majority of black men are simply born “bigger”.
Is this evolution? or natural selection?
Is it happening virtually before our eyes?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
@copperdragon:
Considering that African Americans were considered subhuman, they may have been selectively bred by their slaveowners. A very strong slave may have been given several women to have children with, meanwhile a weak, sick one would probably have died in the fields.
It’s kind of creepy when said…
January 5th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Of course, I’m not an expert in the field.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
I heard that they had found a reason for the appendix. So it has rhyme and reason it’s just not absolutely neccessary. I’m getting along just fine without mine. But this was a really awesome list. I have the bump on my ear and I was born without wisdom teeth. Does that make me high or low on the evolutionary scale? Wait, don’t answer that. I don’t want to know your answer.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
What is the plural of coccyx? This world needs more coccyxes, to keep all the arseholes in their place! (Party icebreaker: “Are you an anus or a coccyx?”)
January 5th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Good lord, has everyone gone insane?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
@segue: I believe that happened around 300 AD.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Somethat that seems to have been overlooked in the focus on “evolution” is the other word in the title – “man”. What about “modern woman”?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
STL Mo (# 231)
I think it’s even getting worse than that so I’m thinking maybe we devolved instead of evolved from that monkey flinging poop.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Blogball- Now we throw political correctness and papers.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
i think they were using “man” to indicate “human” or “mankind” as a species, despite the obvious physical differences between the genders.
it would be interesting if anything on the list applied specifically to one gender or the other. Or if either gender had lost or gained a COMMON body part that the other gender didn’t
The only thing I can think of is nipples on men. they seem to be extraneous. I know that all human embryoes begin as “female”, and have the extra chromosome added late in development, but I would think that evolution would somehow weed that out. Maybe not.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Now its comment 224
January 5th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
My theory on evolution has always been that it’s like God’s way of baking a cake. We are all the finished product; a delicious, good smelling, warm, yellow cake with chocolate icing. But we didn’t start out that way. First we were the ingredients, eggs,sugar,yeast,etc. Then we were mixed together and baked for awhile. Then we were finished on the kitchen table with icing and, if it’s your birthday, maybe a few candles. Now if at certain points in time someone peeked in the oven they would just see some tan colored, bubbling goo. Nothing human like at all. Maybe some of the goo was in cupcake pans and would eventually become bite sized cakes instead of the full sized model. If we go back even farther in the process we just see the white flour or grains of sugar or even broken eggs yolks..that looks even less like the finished product. But when it’s done the final result is spectacular and something we all love (even if you are on a diet). The point I’m trying to make is that evolution is just Gods process for making the finished product…..Man,animals,plants, etc. And while we measure in hours or years or centuries, His timer is infinite. Sometimes the recipe even changes to suit His taste. Accept evolution as a natural process God uses in Creation but also realize we are so small that we can only see the occasional recipe change that occurs for an instant over the course of infinity. Don’t debate the obvious. We can all be right on this one.
January 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
and what about “third nipples”? Is that one of nature’s attempts to evolve in a particular direction?
January 5th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
FYI -
some housework done. trash removed. comment numbering is off. you reference comments by # at your own risk.
@trollz and other obnoxious types -
you are not welcome here. your trash will be removed. save yourself some time and go dump your load elsewhere.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Thank you Cyn!!
January 5th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
DK –
seriously..its just a list on the internet folks. calm down. chill out. and play nice.
as for protecting your identity as a long standing community member.. *sigh* .. atm..i’d say just have some indication in your comment. the existing trash gets/will get cleaned up. in the long term..maybe J can come up w/ a way to ‘lock in’ an ID. dunno.
i would prefer you not use the report abuse button regarding identity theft. if you feel its not being caught and cleaned up readily enough..contact J or myself via forums or email.
eventually this comment section will be clean.
and again….trollz and other assorted idiots are not welcome here.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
I’m glad that Mowi pointed out the fallacy of Number 1. In extension of that, I’d like to remind everyone that none of us knows anything, and so we should really try to refrain from speaking of things as though we do.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
I guess I just can’t escape the topic of evolution, can I? I’m currently in Academic Decathlon and one of the subjects that we need to study is Evolutionary Biology. Isn’t it ironic that I’m reading this list instead of studying. Thanks Jamie for making me feel lazy. Oh, by the way, very interesting list! If all the reading I had to do was in list form, I would probably understand what the heck I was reading. And one more thing I would like to say to some people: Be open-minded! Believe it or not, more people will listen to your opinions if you listen to theirs.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
I think it would be very nice to evolve into doglike flexibility. That way less talking crap and more ball licking.
Everyone would be happy! There would be no more religion …
January 5th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Amazing list! Vestigial remnants are so fascinating and also so humbling in a way. They remind us, perhaps, that we aren’t so terribly advanced as we’d like to believe?
Very cool. Got me thinking.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
I have modified a few names in some of the comments to make them accurate
Two things:
1: Argue civilly
2: If evolution is true, it does not deny the existence of God – so there is no point arguing so bitterly in that direction – both can be true. This is not a list to disprove God – it is a list to point out some of the changes in humans over the many many years that we have been on the earth.
Finally here is a quote from Pope Pius XII on the matter of evolution:
January 5th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
listverse? How about listfight.com?
January 5th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Hey MT – I like your theory. I also believe in the something similar, but your analogy is much neater than mine.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
“#26. mond – January 5th, 2009 at 5:45 am
Can we please have an alternative for those of us that know evolution is just a lie?
Top 10 Signs That God Created Modern Man perhaps?”
I say prove it, then maybe we can have it. I’m feeling generous though, so I’ll suggest a tactful title change to:
“Top 10 Signs That God May Have Created Man”.
I left out the word “modern” because of course if God created modern man, then who created the previous versions? Leaving it in invalidates your hypothesis.
And on a related topic… WHO CARES??!! Jesus Christ people, it’s an internet list. Some of you are acting like someone just shot your mother, grandmother, and [offensive reference to another family member self-censored].
Remember kiddies, arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics; even if you win, you’re still a retard.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
233. copperdragon: So here’s a serious topically-related question…
In the last 100-150 years, black African-American men (and some women) who were brought to America as slaves, have
1) evolved, OR
2) by process of natural selection
have become stronger, larger and to some degree faster, than their white counterparts or their tribal relatives who stayed behind?
If it was just a matter of exercise and working long hours in the fields, it would have only lasted a generation or three, but today a large majority of black men are simply born “bigger”.
Is this evolution? or natural selection?
Is it happening virtually before our eyes?
****
copperdragon, just a guess but, as the black race became more and more able to make a decent living, they were able to properly feed their children. As time went by, and they became more financially adapted into the mainstream, this meant that women, even prior to becoming pregnant, could be fed proper diets, hence producing larger and stronger babies.
January 5th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Great list JFrater! I guess I knew about many of these pointless human attributes but I never figured they were part of our “adaptation” (which is a safer word to use than evolution lol) to life on our ever changing planet. I see that this list has already created much tension between Intelligent Design and Evolution. I would have to say that I believe that we as a species adapt to changes in climate, diet ect. but I believe this system of adaptation was created by Him ^. After all why would he create this planet for us only to have us perish due to its ever changing climate. This list was informative enough though so that even an avid Catholic could find it interesting.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
I’m another in the “Believes in God and Evolution” camp. Belief in God (or in Gods or Goddess or nature spirits or who or whatever you want) does not require the blind embrace of irrational concepts; indeed, I note in my religious studies that most major religions are actually the same at their core. Look at every one of them and you’ll find that their teachings boil down to, at their very heart, “Don’t be a dick.”
To quote Pope John Paul II:
“Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.”
January 5th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Randall said:
“jfrater:
Jamie: Can you do something about this post #198? Thanks.”
So, you’re allowed to obscenely and abusively mock people’s opinions, but someone making fun of you is an issue for the moderators? If you can’t take a mocking, you might want to stop being such an unashamed asshole when it comes to stating your beliefs.
———-
On topic: It needs to be said that “Theory” and “Fact” are not the same thing. Evolution is not a fact; it is a theory whose competitors have been disproven. Evolution has not been “proven” because science cannot “prove” anything; it can only disprove the alternatives. This is not to say that I don’t believe in evolution, (like JFrater and Kreachure I reject the idea that evolution and religion are incompatible) but that evolution is the most likely theory does not make it not a theory.
Those who complain about closed minds would do well to open their own.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
when will us men lose our foreskins???
January 5th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Anyone who believes in God is a moron.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
“I’m another in the “Believes in God and Evolution” camp. Belief in God (or in Gods or Goddess or nature spirits or who or whatever you want) does not require the blind embrace of irrational concepts;”
Except for that of their being a God.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
I will believe in God until they can explain how everything came from Nothing.
January 5th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
I find it more interesting to try guess what the next evolutions are likely to be…
(or creation update patches if you prefer
I say:
- longer more flexible thumbs for texting.
- a second wrist to make typing more efficient without strain
- a less efficient digestive system that doesnt digest sugar or fatty foods.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
^ Actually greencat here’s the latest progress
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-vacuum-fluctuations.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news
The overview theory being that fluctuations in the quantum energy in the dimensions above the 4 in our space/time universe caused matter to come into existence.
Unforunately you’d need to subscribe to a similiar belief that in an infinite potential of the eternal multi-verse, that infinite random energy fluctuations can converge and create matter just as life arose from random molecules.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
segue:
modern medicine and diet certainly would play a part, but I was looking more at the cause/effect of their forced movement and subsequent treatment/development in the US. which precedes and directly relates to their situation.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I just wanted to repost a question I had made a couple of hours ago. Do we have any evidence of bones or muscles that humans no longer have, that we have evolved out of, that early human beings that supposdedly lived 100k years ago had? Because everything stated in this list appears to be things that we still have on/in our bodies that we no longer really need.
and @ Zigra, i echo your sentiments
January 5th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Lol DDRM. Yea we’ll prolly develop another thumb for Halo 3 and lightning fast reflexes to pwn all those noobs.(Maybe we can also develop the ability to spell too.)
January 5th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
It is crushingly depressing to see people reject something they haven’t even read up on.
“We didn’t descend from apes and fish!” refutes evolutionary theory just about as well as “The Moon isn’t attached to the Earth!” refutes lunar influence on tides.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Yun:
Get off it. There’s a HUGE difference between offering up an actual argument–which I did–and childishly posting someone’s own words with a tacked-on, meaningless, unfunny piece of garbarge on the end.
On the other hand, *I* AM funny; I have wit and some style. I ALSO present a reasoned argument when people, such as Rolo, say ridiculous and absurd things, cloaking it as truth–CHECK his original comment. And I mean his ORIGINAL one, when he averred that scientists have been FALSIFYING evidence for evolution. It was an outrageous absurdity and *deserved* the response I gave it.
The simple fact is that people like this can’t take being forcibly stood up to. And people like you don’t get it when someone does so.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
four toes… so we could be like Disney characters then?
January 5th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
randall: i’m with you that rolo spoke like a child who dropped their ice cream. however, you have to admit that there has been scientific falsification of evidence for the purpose of trying to bolster the claims of the evolutionary theory. to say that the idea of scientists falsifying evidence to be absurd isn’t quite taking into account the public record.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
I have one question. If we had all these great uses for all these things: tails, plantaris muscles, pointy ears, pheremone detectors, etc., why the heck did we lose them? Why would nature find a need to discard these things? I wouldn’t mind a tail or better hearing. Why would the same process which causes us to be taller, more intelligent, cause us to lose all of these useful traits?
January 5th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Great list! Almost 300 comments already… not a big surprise. I love to read the argument comments about evolution vs. creationism… as if any one comment is going to change the other person’s mind. Believe what you want… I believe both. God created evolution. Beat that.
January 5th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
facinating list! i had my wisdom teeth removed and my my my did that hurt . . and i agree that evolution doesn’t have to vs god . . we can all live together gosh! PEACE
January 5th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Mikey’s logic, belief in God = moron.
MLK = moron
Obama = moron
Kepler = moron
Newton = moron
Einstein = moron (He did not believe in a ‘personal god’ but in Spinoza’s philosophies which, to be very brief and basic, equates God with nature.)
Mikey me boy, you are an intolerant fool. It amazes me here on LV that nearly every religious debate is sparked by intolerance of those who do not believe.
Now, obviously I have not read every comment in the history of LV…but I have been lurking since the beginning, and generally most of the time it’s intolerance for the religious beliefs of others that spurns these kind of commentaries; nothing but flaming, insults, and fallacies.
Not once have I noticed a religious poster start a debate off with “well, you disagree with me, you are going to hell” or “here let me try on convert you here on LV.” (Not that it has not happened here, but in my experience, I have not seen it.)
Intolerance one way or another is still intolerance, more than that it is intellectual sloth.
Besides, only a fool would enter into the ‘does god exist’ debate in a forum like this…as if you could possibly make a coherent, intellectually honest defense one way or another in a comment section.
And what the hell would a post like, ’so you think God exists? Where is the proof?’ prove anyway? That you can recycle a debate right out of some teenager’s myspace blog or devianART page?
Anyone who seriously debates these things know that religion and it’s validity is far to broad and complex a topic to boil it down to “religion is dumb” or “God exists because you can’t disprove it.”
Religion\science debate has been going on for thousands of years, all of us in this thread are not going to hash it out in here…so let’s give it a rest.
Einstein once said “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
Can most of us not agree with that? If you don’t, check out his writings and thoughts on religion, I think you’ll learn quite a bit about having a nontraditional spiritual or atheistic viewpoint and maintaining a respect for other beliefs\philosophies…or in other words, humility (something we all could use some more of from time to time.)
It’s too bad most of the commentary has been derailed into yet another pointless religious debate on the internet because it was a GREAT list.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Nobody answered my questions. I thought they were good questions.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
The theory of evolution is not trying to discredit religion, only trying to present a plausible explanation to physical evidence recovered. Evolution does not try explain the origin of life, only the origin of species. It also does not deny that God fuels evolution.
Evolution and religion can coexist perfectly.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
@Deapthinker “God created evolution.. beat that”
I think I might be able to beat that. How about this: Evolution created god.
Not just randomly reversing your words either. There are works which attempt to show religion is an evolutionary necessity. Explains why so many unrelated cultures have religions which seem to have a similar basis.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
@Lammy:
We lost them because they were no longer needed. We quit living in trees, so we don’t need the grabby feet. We got up on two legs, so the tail was no longer needed – though would have been fun to keep. The tail maybe helps balance fourleggers especially when they attempt to go up on two legs for whatever reason. Hearing and sight went away maybe due to our place on the foodchain. We became so good at what we do that it was no longer a priority and we could focus that energy on growing our brains.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
two tailed jesus?
January 5th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Wow. Awesome list!
January 5th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
278. Mr. Plow: Thank you for taking the time to, hopefully, straighten Mikey out. Its quarter to 11 here in Michigan and I don’t much feel like dealing with an idiot this late.
January 5th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
This is a great list!! I believe in God and Evolution. I’ve got the Darwin’s Pointe, also. I only got halfway through the comments. Will have to return to finish them. Such defensive people about what they believe. Some people just take some things way too personal. Then again, others are too pushy with what they believe. “Why can’t we all just get along?” LOL!
January 5th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
This is the internet. Angry debate is a rule, i think. No one expects to change anyone’s mind.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
foebea: do you know what else might explain why so many different cultures have a similar religious base? that it is based on truth.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
DiscHuker: As I don’t have the required background to fully backup my statement in an intelligent fashion, I will definately conceed that to you. If I had more knowledge on the topic I would attempt to debate the truth upon which it is based. My assumption is that it is based on two things, not related, and not necessarily combined. The harvest, and control of the people.
My consideration when writing the earlier post is of religions which are not compatible with each other. For instance, Buddism and Wiccan. Both provide the followers with advice and rules on how to live life in harmony with others. They help society work on a large scale. It does not show that there is a god or gods or any higher plane. It simply helps people to live fruitful lives and deal with thier fears. This would be a very useful thing to the survival of any species which is capable of complex thought.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Cyn, please think twice about getting rid of the idiots. I won’t be able to comment anymore and I really think my fans, all two of them, will be disheartened.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
buc: am i one of the two? if not, your fan base just went up by 50%.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Arguing on the internet is proof that we are de-evolving.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
since when did evolution become an actual true science? It has been theories from many different people in many different fields and somehow theories have become “fact”. Now before you freak out and call me a fanatical religeous nut, i will say that even though i was raised to believe in creation and that evolution is just a tool of Satan and his followers who would slander God, i stopped believing what other people told me and looked for answers myself. As much amazing things are in this planet/galaxy/universe, science and religion have tried to give us answers. When it comes to where things come from and how long we’ve been here…who cares. We’re here. I’ve been here for awhile, and so have you…fighting over it is quite pointless.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
292. bucslim -
well…obviously i’ve not gotten rid of all the idiots…
you’re still here!
*rimshot*
thank you, thank you. i’ll be here all week.
be sure to wait your tipress on the way out.
January 5th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Theories are not fact. As mentioned earlier, facts only exist in maths. Evolution is not fact, it is a theory. As a theory, it is put to the test against other theories, and over time has become the generally accepted scientific theory to explain the multitude of life on earth. This does not imply evolution is a correct theory, it just remains the best current explaination, and stands up as a sound theory by way of the scientific method.
Religion is not disproved by evolution. Religion is not testable by the scientific method as it makes use of so called blind faith. God cannot be found in a lab, cannot be measured.
Evolution is not disproved by religion. Even the pope has said that evolution fits within catholicism.
Some day we may have a better theory to descibe life. Until then, people will continue to test evolution and find things which support it and look for new proofs which can destroy it. Scientists love to prove new theories.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
I’m just tryin to shine a little ray of sunshine into our little patch of disgruntled and insulted posters. I want everyone’s viewpoint to be taken seriously and never be hurt or to see their self esteem circling the toilet. I’m like a jelly doughnut who’s anticipated as it’s place before the waiting customer just as it surely will be missed as the last delicious bite is savored on it’s way to the satisfied stomach. (which is pretty close to the appendix and coccyx.)
Disc, you’re the man. You already know what side of this debate I fall on.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Little toes do provide a marginal advantage in balancing, particularly when it comes to not rolling over onto the outside of your ankle.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
sorry… I just wanted this specified… “junk DNA” = satellite DNA. And in my belief there is such a large amount of satellite DNA that there must be a use for it. In fact, this “junk” DNA has already been found to be beneficial in slowing cell division and protecting against mutation.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
and what about the lactase enzyme!?! what better evidence do we have for evolution?
January 5th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Instead of religious debate, can’t we have a discussion on the science of it? I find that type of conversation is more rewarding for everyone.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
The appendix has been found to have a purpose! It is a biological safehouse for beneficial bacteria. When an intestinal purging phenomena occurs, such as ingesting antibiotics, the appendix keeps a healthy population of friendly bacteria alive and ready to repopulate your guts.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
evolution: the idea that when an organism comes into being with a new genetic mutation (created randomly in the process of DNA/RNA synthesis) that enhances its ability to survive, it does survive and breed successfully. if its offspring inherit the mutation and also prosper they will live longer and reproduce more successfully than members of the species who lack the mutation. given enough time this will result in the mutation becoming universal or at least very widely present in all living members of that species. it will be the norm and the species will have changed, will have evolved.
this exits without doubt. it has been seen in the careers of individual researchers observing bacteria who EVOLVE resistance to an antibiotics, viruses that EVOLVE to thrive in more host species (this is why people and governments worry about avian influenza. if “bird flu” was guaranteed to only sicken birds and did not have the potential to EVOLVE to infect humans it wouldn’t be a current global concern.) and fruit flies bred purely to observe the new mutations they develop -as many of these traits are useful for other research.
no one who is capable of rational thought and possesses an inkling of understanding of the scientific method doubts or debates this.
another thing worthy of note: there is no such thing as “de-evolution/devolving”. it is a fallacy that evolution progresses to an ever more complex organism. an organism progresses towards a form that is most suitable to keeping it alive in its environment and ecosystem over many many generations, or it dies off. there is no rule that this “best fit” state will be more complex than the “best fit” of ages ago. this is why ginkgo trees, and some sharks and crocodilians are called “living fossils” by some, they found a fairly simple form that worked (without their conscious intent, or course) and there must not have been any wildly beneficial mutation for some millennia, so they stayed basically the same. and basically all the things on this list show features of humans that are becoming less complex (like not having a tail) because the trait offered no significant survival advantages, but they are still examples of evolution, not de-evolution.
and as a final note, several commentors here have fallen, perhaps unknowingly, into Lamarckian thinking. the “we pluck out eyebrows, so they should go away,” and “how long will foreskins last?” come to mind. Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829) was they guy who thought body modification done AFTER a species was born would somehow change their offspring. he was wrong, but as the mechanisms of genetic inheritance were unknown to him, we can cut him some slack. the most used example of why this theory is wrong is the domestic dog. certain species of dogs have had their ears and/or tails snipped shorter by their human owners for style basically as long as the breeds have existed -yet all their puppies have been born with the long ears and tails every time.
you can read about lamarck here:
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/lamarck.html
and speaking of dogs -they are a very strong example of selective breeding! all domestic dog breeds from chihuahuas to mastiffs to poodles are the SAME species -humans selectively breeding them for traits made them so different. this shows you the wild potential of forms and behavioral traits in the genetic material of just one animal. evolution does the exact same thing -but the environment does the selecting, by the method i outlined at the very beginning.
i really don’t see how any THINKING person of normal intellectual abilities could just throw all this out and by saying “it’s only a theory! hogwash and balderdash!”
science is not in the business of proving things -it can only find the most likely theory by disproving alternatives and gathering supporting data. this does not invalidate it as a process for understanding reality!
after all, GRAVITY is still only a theory. does that stop it from hurting when you fall down?
January 5th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
p.s. good list jamie!
i’m happy to say i have darwin points -i never knew most people don’t.
January 5th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Copperdragon #243, most genetic mutations occur in males. That is really the primary reason why we exist in the first place. The Y chromosome is just a little nub that backs up only a few of the genes on the X chromosome. Therefore many mutations on the males’ X chromosomes manifest themselves in our physiology. If it is a beneficial or harmless mutation, it gets passed on to the next generation and eventually hardwired into both the females’ X chromosomes.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
lo: I’m on the side of evolution, but will take a moment to try and bring up one of the foremost detractors positions to try and clarify the debate.
The issue is not that evolution is not happening, most religious folk see it and understand and agree to a point. The issue they perceive is not that changes are occuring, but rather that evolution results in entirely new species branching from others.
Of course a rabbit can change the color of its fur based on environment to hide from attackers, in snow only the white rabbits live on. But for white rabbits to result eventually in flying donkeys is a large leap to handle. Not saying there are flying donkeys, just rambling. You get my meaning I think.
For the fish to grow legs is visible in nature. There are fish with legs. There are fish with lungs. The difficulty is for that fish to then leave the ocean, change into a deer and run away seems quite a stretch. This type of change occurs over such a long period of time with almost no evidence to support it that it seems insane to accept it as truth.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
I.. uh.. hope that is a correct characterization. If not, I don’t mean any ill by it.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
arguing on the internet is like racing in the special olympics…
…even if you win, you’re still retarded.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Heheh.. I think that has been posted several times in this thread. It’s quite trite, but an important reminder.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
i’d rather hear more about this two tailed jesus
January 5th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Interestingly enough, the phrase “Two Tailed Jesus” was originated on this very page, otherwise I would try to help you out. Maybe the coiner could write up a nice long article giving it some depth. I’d read it. Twice.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
foebea- i think it is people making jumps like “a fish becomes a deer, a rabbit a flying donkey” that confuses them. the thing about evolution is that it is soooooo gradual. the only reason we can see it in bacteria, viruses, fruit flies, etc. is because they reproduce so VERY much more quickly than we do.
when we talk species we need to remember (as randall stated before, even if he was pissed off) that it’s not a matter of a chimp (or a bonobo to be more precise) becoming a human, rather that both of us shared an ancestor way, WAY back who was neither chimp nor human. that ancestor had offspring that diverged slowly and the closer we get to the common one the more similar the two divergent groups would have been.
it’s helpful to think of animals that are closer on the same brach of the great evolutionary tree. for example, think of a smaller, feathered dinosaur like Archaeopteryx slowly, feature by feature, becoming a bird. here’s a site for further reading on that, from the University of California Museum of Paleontology:
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html
i fully agree with you that this kind of time, measured on a geologic scale of the 4.5 BILLION years our planets been around, boggles the mind -any mind. it’s just too big for us short lived humans to really grasp. but i strongly disagree that there is “almost no evidence.” there is quite a bit of evidence, both in the fossil record and now -very excitingly- in comparative genetics. just because the evidence is technical in nature and deserves a good bit of study and a little bit of expertise to fully understand does not mean it isn’t there.
for the record, i see science as a field totally separate from god -the methods used to understand each of them, empirical observation vs. faith, are not applicable to the other.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
and bucslim-
this comment is the highlight of the whole list for me:
“I’m just glad God left my coccyx where it is. I appreciate it’s role in the positioning of my anus. I mean, you can’t just have your anus position in a sloppy, haphazard way. If anuses were left to their own devices, then we’d have anarchy. What if we all had anuses in different positions?
All hail the coccyx and it’s role in our daily lives!”
i’d cry if your idiocy was banned!
January 5th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
Very well said. Thanks!
When I wrote ‘almost no evidence’ I implied as compared to other, more universally accepted theories such as gravity and fluid dynamics. Those types of theories are completely testable at will. Evolution on the grand scale cannot be tested in the same fashion, rather can only be inferred from available evidence.
Every time I hit a ball with a racket I see the results. It’s easily repeatable by any layman.
To test evolution beyond casual examination of records requires specialized training and equiptment, and even then we do not have the resources or ability to run a complete test which would show what seems evident. Its too big. It’s simply out of reach of the general public, and requires a certain amount of blind faith.
January 5th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
@22. Mikey
Go back to 4chan please.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:29 am
So I read the list and immediately looked in the mirror for third eyelids and ear points… neither of which I have, so does that mean i’m ahead of the curve??
I also don’t have “moons” on my fingernails which everyone thinks is weird… so i’m either an evolutionary sprinter or recently landed here from a more advanced civillization (now if my brain would just catch up!)
Oh, and why do men have nipples? The only thing I could think of is that they were useful for quieting a crying baby when “mom” was busy.
Anyone?
January 6th, 2009 at 12:33 am
The third eyelid is the fleshy bit in the corner. It used to be able to move across the eye.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:48 am
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_we_need_an_appendix
January 6th, 2009 at 1:20 am
THERES NO SUCH THING AS EVOLUTION, GOD CREATED EVERYTHING!
lol jkjk , great list!
January 6th, 2009 at 1:21 am
foebea- thanks for the thanks
i think we are on the same page about people understanding this issue.
just in case anyone is going to rip up my explanations of evolution above, i found a critical typo: it says “certain species of dogs have had their ears …” -species, should read BREEDS right there.
context makes this pretty clear, but as my later point is that all domestics dogs are ONE and the same species, i don’t want to be accused of a self-contradicting post.
good night y’all and sweet dreams
January 6th, 2009 at 1:48 am
@Alencon
“As soon as you put them in the public square, especially if they are used as a justification for any of a number of things from limiting someones free speech (which you’re sort of attempting to do aren’t you) to outlawing gay marriage (which you may or may not care about, it’s just an example), then they become everyone’s business.”
I put absolutely nothing in the public square, hell, you don’t even know what I believe in. All I’ve asked for is the right to keep that private and to not be called an idiot for it. And I’m not limiting anyone’s freedom of speech, I’m just asking that if it must be done, it be done in a respectful manner, which appears to be a lost cause on most of these guys here.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:57 am
Randall-
Youre sexy.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:47 am
In my opinion, the next step in evolution will be the disappearance of the differences in skin color.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:55 am
265 greencat:
“I will believe in God until they can explain how everything came from Nothing.”
Well, a single atom consists mostly of emptiness. We may say what you call “everything” they are nothing…
January 6th, 2009 at 3:44 am
To the people arguing that we must have been made by god because something can not come from nothing I ask you this… If everything must have a starting point then where did god come from? Did he just go *poof* and make a dramatic entrance to an existence consisting of nothing but him?
I’m not saying that a god does not exist because how the hell do I really know until I die? Until you can tell me why god can appear from nothing and yet the universe can’t I’m going to have to throw my dice in with the evolutionary crowd.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:15 am
i like the description of the appendix: hanging around and doing nothing.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:18 am
First of all, having to scroll all the way to the bottom of the page to comment would be an easy thing to fix…
Anyway, enough bitchin’ and on to an interesting point about the appendix.
We now live in an environment where there is little or no selection pressure on a functioning appendix. The post said that dodgy appendices are removed. If natural selection were allowed to take its course, the death of humans with appendices would ensure that these extra organs would eventually be selected out of the loop. However, with modern medicine enabling the existence of the useless organ, it will probably be around for a long time yet.
Bet even, if the economy keeps up the way it is at the moment that cellulose-processing appendix might come in useful again.
What created God? Either something had to or, if he’s always been here, why would he have been? Why not just have him out of the equation and save yourself time and energy by saying that the universe has always been here?
Loads easier.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:36 am
We don’t know that the universe has always been constant.
January 6th, 2009 at 5:04 am
Davo, the existence of a God is unprovable at this time. It could be expressed in gambling odds as 50/50, it is just as likely a God exists as doesn’t. It is organized religion invented by mankind that is BS. There are people out there open to the concept of a creator but not organized religion.
I believe that creationism is one of the most damaging myths ever created by organised religion. It is demonstrably wrong yet there are thousands perhaps millions worldwide who believe it.
I believe in evolution for 2 reasons:
1. Its currently the best theory we have and every day it gains more strength.
2. Even if it proves to be wrong I don’t want to spend eternity with a bunch of weirdo creationist douches
January 6th, 2009 at 5:04 am
To those among you who are so narrow-minded as to perhaps not consider that “Science” might be a God’s gift to his children, that they might gain insight into his wisdom and workings (evolution), I suggest you heed “His” advice found in the book of Ezekiel, chapter 4, verses 12-13.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:18 am
What we see in bacteria isn’t “molecules to man” evolution. It’s adaptation. It’s a loss of genetic information and not a gain. Sometimes these adaptations can be beneficial but it’s still a LOSS of genetic information.
This bacteria may be able to survive a man-made poison within a lab, but would be less adept to flourish in the wild and would likely be “selected” against. Inheritence of the mutation that allows them to resist antibiotics was simply already there in some bacteria or passed along by others. It’s nothing new, simply a resurgence of what was already present.
Take away the lab induced environmental factors and the adaptation would likely go back the other way.
“What created God? Either something had to or, if he’s always been here, why would he have been? Why not just have him out of the equation and save yourself time and energy by saying that the universe has always been here?”
God created and exists outside of time. The concept of there being a “beginning” and “creation” starts with him. The universe on the other hand is within time and therefore has a definitive beginning. You can’t simply say it’s always been there.
And why is creationism one of the most damaging “myths” created? Because it challenges people to think about other possibilities and examine the evidence from another perspective. I believe that to simply accept something because you are told it is so is foolish. To investigate yourself and come to your own conclusions as a result seems far wiser. If one person looks at the evidence and concludes its evolution, yet another looks at the same evidence and concludes creation, why is the one who settles on creation seen as an “idiot/fool/stupid/retarded/etc etc.” The simplest explanation people have for what they don’t understand is that there is something wrong with the other person when perhaps the problem lies with themselves.
I do not believe in “molecules to man” evolution. I believe natural selection and adaptation is observable but no matter what changes occur, one thing remains the same…dogs are dogs, cats are cats, horses are horses, monkeys are monkeys, humans are humans. If one kind of cat has more doggish looking features than another, does that mean that cats and dogs split off from a common ancestor millions of years ago? Or is it simply a matter of “those things looks similar”.
If all creatures have similar anatomy and traits, is this again evidence for a common ancestor or for a common designer. Just like a mechanic may have his favourite tools and parts and he’ll modify these to design pieces of a car, a boat, a plan and a motorbike. One didn’t evolve through natural processes into another.
I believe God instilled in all creatures a vast capacity to adapt to surroundings in order to survive in this world. It shows his love of versatility. Heck, I like to look at the “Universe” as “United Versatility”. Many different things, all under one incredible head. I believe vast changes have gone on in all species of creature over the thousands of years we’ve existed and that what we see today is probably far removed in some ways from what was originally created. It’s not a stretch to imagine that mankind were once able to do things we can’t even imagine today.
Just look at some of the most amazing ancient monuments which scientists, philosophers and archeologists are still baffled about. Huge stone blocks, how were they moved? Pyramids of incredible design. Many today ascribe this to aliens, but the same problems with the origin of life here simply transfers to them. Is it so much of a stretch to imagine that mankind was simply far more capable than he is now?
Could it be that mankind could hear better (hence the change in ears), had a greater sense of smell, had more flexible feet and uses for DNA that we can’t figure out now? Is it that we no longer need certain parts or that due to gradual degridational mutation, we’re simply not as flashy as we used to be? Kinda like modern cars not being as durable as old fashioned ones.
However the current line of thinking points towards “Older? Dumber/Primitive”
January 6th, 2009 at 6:40 am
One link. I think it says it all…
http://www.explosm.net/comics/818/
January 6th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Last night I got as far as post 265 before our server freaked out and put paid to the internet. My notes are in this and the next post:
NOTE ONE
Randall is back with a vengeance. Yippee, (Pay special attention to the word ‘vengeance’!)
Buc on top form made me keep changing Y-fronts till my bladder ran dry. He’s up for the LV Golden Orb, for sure.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:03 am
NOTE TWO.
This ‘front tail’ people are talking about. Surely not a vestigial virgin?
January 6th, 2009 at 7:04 am
NOTE THREE
Rolo Tomasi IS Piltdown Man.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:09 am
NOTE FOUR
This thread prompted me to wonder whether the sense of humour is a redundant organ in decline throughout the species, or an evolving, advanced function. Clerarly the biggest collective group to be born without one is fundamentalists of all kinds. I wonder if jfrater can supply us with the relevant percentage, as per his ‘10′?
January 6th, 2009 at 7:12 am
Now I’ll Plow through the rest (sorry to take your name in vain Mr P).
January 6th, 2009 at 7:15 am
Forgive me if this was mentioned. I couldn’t stand reading all the comments about religion bashing/evolution denial, so I skipped to the end.
The plica semilunaris is the remnant of the third eyelid, not Darwin’s Point. It’s even shown in the diagram, but it’s the subtitle for Darwin’s Point.
Fun list, but a lot of comment posters are a-holes.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:26 am
I’ve also been considering whether Common Sense, Logical Progression, and Lateral Thinking are going to fall by the wayside too, in the US anyway, as they seems to be less and less common among some of the fastest growing social groupings in the country. I.e Christian Fundamentalists.
Raised as a Catholic, I can clearly remember Fr Reilly explaining the story of Adam and Eve to us when I was in 3rd Class (about 8 years old). He told us how throughout the Bible, stories are used to convey simple morality to people in a way they can simply understand. When we asked about Adam and Eve, he said that it was a story, and that Eve never took the apple from the serpent, but that it was a metaphor. He also explained that Job was never eaten by a whale. It too was a metaphor.
How about a list on the Best Metaphors in the Bible? That could spark some controversy too…
Lets put the Mental back in Fundamentalist…
January 6th, 2009 at 7:30 am
270. Dre: there is a great link that Randall posted above regarding the evolution of the pelvis. I´m a little fuzzy on the details but basically it said Lucy´s (A. afarensis) pelvis was better suited to bipedalism than our modern one. Unfortunately, modern babies with the bigger heads (and brains) would not have fit through Lucy´s pelvis so the design changed to adapt to our bigger heads. Yeah, you should better read it for a better explanation.
————–
317. Lynn in Oregon: I have moons too! Is that weird?? Anyway, as to your men nipple comments, I´ve read somewhere that in extreme cases some men have been know to spontaneously start lactating (I think there was a case in Sri lanka not too long ago). Fascinating really.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:48 am
robneiderman – you better not be calling me an a-hole or I’ll realign your coccyx, which in turn, will wreak havoc on the alignment of your anus. And we all know what problems that will have on your excretory system.
Anon – sorry about you running thin on your Y front supplies, whatever the hell that is. Not sure I want to know. And I’ve already scoped out a tux to wear at the LV Golden Orbs Gala. I’m going with Liz Hurley. After the ceremony I’ll check out her golden orbs.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:05 am
And now, to be frivolous for a rare change:
littleboots, 116,
“Please tell me why in animal societies the weak and and sick are left to their own devices and generally die, thus leaving the rest of the pack/herd to evolve physically stronger and smarter, whereas us humans cater to the weak and sick and stupid, even cushion the world for them, even give them awards? This is what’s slowing down evolution for the human race.”
I don’t recall seeing this particular characteristic, but I have read several classic books on animal behaviour and watched plently of wildlife TV. So a logical evolutionary answer doesn’t seem difficult to deduce.
In large, homogeneous unspecialised or readily replaceable socieites, whether social, such as bees, ants and wasps, or random herds of African grazing mammals, shoals of fish, flocks of birds or swarms of insects, the numbers are the protection and are sacrificied readily for the survival of the species without the least concern by the rest.
In small, territorial social groups such as packs of wolves and early man, which are specialised and vulnerable, numbers are absolutely critical. One individual might make the difference between group extinction or survival in a food hunting strategy, or fight with a rival group or predator. In the latter case numbers are *big* like the standing hair of the frightened cat. Think of the number of times throughout history clever military leaders have used dummy men or equipment to fool an enemy.
Let’s suppose there were two sets of early man. Those who left their wounded, less competent and sick to die. And those who took risks by devoting precious time to the recovery of their infirm, wounded and less able. The rules of survival clearly indicate which was more successful set in the form of ourselves, their modern, evolved descendants. Just take the exemplary Rolo, whom we are all nursing along rather than abandoning or assassinating intellectually (aren’t we?). Well every rule has its exceptions. Besides which I haven’t touched on the opposing Anon’s Law of Conformity & Outcasts, which explains such phenomena as bullying!
Some posters, especially those of a religious cast, will no doubt find this explanation a typical cold, heartless scientific explantion for the wonderful phenomena of charity, self-sacrifice and medical and other care we see in the world around us. Well, just consider how the basic sex drive has flowered into Valentine’s day and romantic films. Or the need to eat to stay alive has led to French cusine and five-star restaurants. Or our need for mobility has taken us out into space. Indeed, everything we value can be traced to such basic beginnings. The fact is, we create our own wonder world by cultural evolutionary build-up, and I find this just as magical as anyone else does. It didn’t ‘come from nothing’ either, which the religious like to posit as the alterntaive to their view. The potential was/is there in the universe, whether you want to refine it as God (which I don’t) or anything else.
END OF DAILY PHILOSOPHICAL RANT
January 6th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Buc,
*Y*s are that little blue garment Superman forgets to put on till last. They help to give support to front tails, dangly bits, coxxyces, ani and the like. The plurals in the last sentence refer to collectivity, not evolutionary freaks, by the way.
Are those orbs for sharing? (The gorgeous pliable ones, I mean.)
January 6th, 2009 at 8:19 am
Back to frivolity.
If it hasn’t been raised in the bit above I’ve yet to read, can anyone tell me if there is a direct correlation between shivering and goose-pimples? In other words, is shivering dependant on goosies? I ask because involuntary shivering is known to serve the evolutionary purpose of generating heat by movement when we are threatened by low temperatures (as perspiration helps us to cool down in heat).
January 6th, 2009 at 8:37 am
OMG… you skip 1 day due to relative boringness of recent lists and WHAMMO! miss out on all my faves… Randall vs. the Creationists, Kreacure’s charm, and my honey Bucslim’s diabolical wit! Good vs. evil… Reason vs. Fantasy…Evolution vs. Creationism… that’s the last time I take an all day horse back ride in the Everglades!
after the 124 comment, I just had to comment on 119.
concerning the video of the dog pulling it’s injured ‘buddy’ out of the road…
people…
not to break your bubbles, but that dog was merely mounting and attempting to MATE with the deceased dog! YES! NO LIE!
I am specializing in animal behavior (ethology) and after watching the video 3 times, I realized that a dog will PICK up and CARRY an object to safety… war dogs in Vietnam did this to their fallen handlers… not wrap their front legs in a “hug” and drag their companions away! The only reason the companion dog moves off the road is the vigourousness of the humping motion actually pulls the limp, unconscious, and blood-slick dog across the lanes of traffic.
now, this is all my speculation, spoken amongst other classmates, we are in agreement, and I wish there was more info on the injured dog… I am willing to bet the dog was in estrus & actively pursued by an amorous male…
males in nature can sometimes kill their prospective mates in heir attempts to procreate…I have seen the Muscovy ducks on my lake drown females in their robustness to gang-bang her…
ringtailroxy
January 6th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Buc,
I recall reading in the thread about embarrassing deaths ofsome greedy guy having gold poured down his throat. It led to delicious thoughts about golden orbs …
January 6th, 2009 at 8:46 am
I was with you until that comment about the little toe, my uncle lost one in an accident and had to completely re-learn how to walk, it’s extremely important in balance. Now I’m unconvinced about the rest of your submissions.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am
I’ve resisted making a serious comment on this subject, but I find it highly offensive when someone suggests that those who believe in the Bible “need to get a clue” or are stupid or backwards or uninterested in science, etc.
At the risk of people thinking I’m a neanderthal, I believe wholeheartedly in the Bible and I guess I’m one who some sneer at as “fundamentalist.” And what is a fundamentalist but someone who believes in God and what He has revealed in His book?
Many Christians, to their discredit, don’t engage their minds when discussing science. Likewise, many atheists don’t engage their minds either when discussing faith. They act as if all Christians are just sitting with their fingers in their ears going “la! la! la! I can’t hear you!”
As for me, I believe because of the evidence: Christianity is historic and evidential. (I can direct any open-minded person to resources, if they care to pursue them.) I’m not so naive to think that one post on one thread on one webb site will change any minds, but please consider: When I behold science and all the wonderful and amazing discoveries made, I don’t think that God is discredited or invalidated. Exactly the opposite: Science validates God. I marvel at the wonders of God with each new discovery. I marvel at the ingenious mechanisms that populate the cell. I am stunned at the incredible and incalcuable vastness of space. I wonder at the simple beauty of a flower unfolding its petals. I am delighted at the laws of physics and mathematical precision of many things in nature (as much as I can understand them, that is).
As a Bible-beleiving Christian, I don’t fear science or its discoveries. I revel in them. Not for nothing do I read Popular Science, Discovery, National Geographic and etc. I honor the men and women who do the research, even when I believe their conclusions are wrong or don’t support the evidence the way they think it should.
I thoroughly enjoy science fiction, as my previous and subsequent postings attests. One of my first cousins is an award-winning author of sci-fi and he’s definitely no Christian. Yet I thoroughly enjoy his stories, and not just out of family loyalty.
As far as I am concerned, science validates God. It doesn’t negate Him. (And yes, I think the theory of evolution is ultimately not supoprted by the evidence. I beleive that God created the heavens and the earth. I never commented on the question thread on whether creationism should be taught in schools, but my feeling is that teaching the THEORY of evolution is fine, as long as it’s understood that there are other competing theories. I’m not an advocate for religion in the classroom, and would also like to see much more honest and open-minded vetting of intelligent design before it’s ever taught to the same extent as Darwinian evolution.)
Now, I used to engage in online flame wars with a couple of hard-core atheists, but wound up accomplishing nothing more than discrediting myself and my arguments. The anominity of the Internet greatly increases people’s courage, and they say things in such a way that they’d never say to someone’s face.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the conclusions of the theory of evolution yet recognize that the search for answers leads to discovery and the advancement of civilization. As Christians, we need to join the search and gently but confidently offer our answers, instead of standing in front of people and yelling “NO!”
An please, for everyone who doesn’t believe in God, please accept that you can be Christian and a scientist.
Cheers, all.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:58 am
I know you’re all waiting for my next bit of satirical wit, but let me take a note from Jerry Springer and waylay you with my own opinion of this matter. I’ve always believed in God and had an evangelical upbringing. For all you naked intellectual pagans dancing around the maypole out there, I’ve never felt it my place to make sure you’ve heard the word of God today. In the same vein, I don’t really like it much when I’m painted as some dopey zealot with glazed over eyes who sends regular checks to the scripture screaming dude on TV dressed up in a snazzy suit and has his hair shellacked. I believe what I believe and don’t really give a shit if you think I’m stupid or deluded, I’ve been called worse and my bark is a little thicker than all that.
Ok the scientific stuff works and makes sense to me, and I don’t really consider it to be an affront to my faith if I acknowledge some of it. And I admit I don’t exactly know every arguing point. But I don’t buy into all of it, because I have a brain and I can actually choose to believe some things and call the rest bullshit. I fully admit that the American brand of Christianity has a patent pending on stupidity and established the brand name for buffonery. But if you’re going to tell me this thing called life is all explained in the lab with test tubes, a bunsen burner and a diffy q math equation, well I think you’re full of shit.
The kind of shit that comes out of a properly aligned anus.
Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Thanks STL Mo for making my last post virtually worthless.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Gotta spread some love for my girl roxy who brought us all back to sanity with lurid tales of necrophiliac dogs. She just has a way with putting a fine point on things. What a sweetheart!
Anon – not sure the golden orbs thingies would pour down the throat that easily, but it’s the effort that counts.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Mr. Plow, (279),
I could not and would not waste my time trying to find out who casts first LV stones. All I can say is that as a tolerant, practicing atheist, I have read some massively unchristian and clearly unprovoked attacks on anyone who does not subscribe to religious belief. For my sins (sorry!) I have even been driven to explain my point of view with great care to some of the more intelligent intolerant, who, although I concede and tolerate their viewpoint without qualification, stubbornly refuse to reciprocate. In fact, although I acknowledge decent tolerance on both sides, it strikes me that the religious intolerant have been if anything more intolerant in their individual persistence than the secular intolerant. Here I am including *first strikes* of a religious nature against evolutionary science, for example, as in this thread (22, although I concede it might have been a deliberate shit-stir. If so it’s indistinguishable from the *real thing*). Again I bear in mind how the religious are taught they are supposed to comport themselves. I won’t press the point though, not least because I find intolerance equally offensive from whatever quarter it originates and at whomever (undeserving) it is aimed at. My point excludes fierce logical no-holds-barred debate, by the way, or reaction towards anyone in particular who has asked for it, religious or secular.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Following up on the “Why do men have nipples” debate.
It’s so we know how far we can safely wade out at the beach.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:49 am
bucslim, Mr Plow, et al,
“Some posters, especially those of a religious cast, will no doubt find this explanation a typical cold, heartless scientific explanation for the wonderful phenomena … we see in the world around us.
“The fact is, we create our own wonder world by cultural evolutionary build-up, and I find this just as magical as anyone else does. It didn’t ‘come from nothing’ either, which the religious like to posit as the alternative to their view. The potential was/is there in the universe, whether you want to refine it as God (which I don’t) or anything else.”
That comment refers equally to Life on Earth and *everything*.
Sorry to quote narcissicistically (what else should a botanist do?) from my own earlier post. However, I get a little tired of being told by believers that atheists MUST be stuck with the alternative believe everything originated from nothing or test tubes. I tend to wonder whether that reveals more about them and their internal vision than me and others who share my view.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:54 am
These points may have been made but hey,
Goose bumps close the pores so that liquid cannot get out and cause more chilling due to evaporation.
There is no reported evidence that humans have active sensory neurons like those in working vomeronasal systems of other animals. Furthermore, there is no evidence to date that suggests there are nerve and axon connections between any existing sensory receptor cells that may be in the adult human VNO and the brain. Likewise, there is no evidence for any accessory olfactory bulb in the adult humans, and the key genes involved in VNO function in other mammals have pseudogeneized in humans. Therefore while the presence of a structure in adult humans is debated, a review of the scientific literature by Tristram Wyatt concluded, “most in the field… are sceptical about the likelihood of a functional VNO in adult humans on current evidence.
It had been said that Auriculares muscles are useful for facial expressions. As well as for great party tricks.
Plantaris acts to:
* plantarflex the ankle joint
* flex the knee joint
Plantaris may also provide proprioceptive feedback information to the central nervous system regarding the position of the foot. The unusually high density of proprioceptive receptor end organs supports this notion.
Read this interesting article arguing that the removal of wisdom teeth does more harm than good. http://www.scribd.com/doc/3504237/Wisdom-Teeth-Removal-More-Harm-Than-Good
The third eye-lid is known to keep dirt out of the eye.
Studies have shown that those without an appendix tend to have a weaker immune system.
Just a few points I wanted to make.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:57 am
I hear there are some creationists who are afraid to go out in the garden because they think they may be treading on the kind of dirt they believed that God made Adam and Eve from. Get an education. Go read a book. There is no sky fairy.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:58 am
PS
Someone raised the very valid point above that your belief is your own until you make it public, abobe all to support a point. As an exit-closet atheist I’m have no problem with that. So if a Christian *uses* the Bible in support of a view, he or she has then rendered the Bible a legitimate target. This is equally true of Origins. That there is subsequent collateral damage to bystanders is, I’m afraid, one of the consequences of debate. If you can’t stand the heat …
January 6th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Sorry about the garbleage.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Rhodri Brady, 356,
While you’re still here, if you’re still here.
are you able answer my earlier question as to whether there is any co-ordination between goose bumps and shivering to generate warmth?
January 6th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Anon – a well reasoned response is always appreciated, quotes or no quotes.
Look we can do this ‘where did the atoms come from’ or ‘who created God’ ring around the rosey thing all day to the point where Socrates himself would start to get bored and proceed to hook up his Wii. We’ve debated this very point until the dead horse we’ve been kicking gets up and kicks us all in the collective balls.
Anyone who says they absolutely knows what happened at the cosmic grand opening couldn’t be more full of shit than the Winnebago after a trip to the Ozarks. Some say it all came together and exploded into bits of life stuff, I say the Big Guy lit the match on that gas can. It’s just when this Torquemada v Hawking cage match spills into the audience, that’s when things get messy.
I’ve stated where I’m at and I’m fine if a few satanic heifers flip me off when they go into the chasm.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Man, there has been some DUMB s### said so far. And that was just scanning…
To the atheists/nonreligious entities: To pretend like an education, or modern science provides all answers to everything is just as bad as proclaiming the bible serves that function. Which really, if you ask me, is what makes atheism no different from Christianity. You can never know anything until you realize that you truly know nothing.
To the anti-evolutionists: The majority of you seem to inject personal offense into all things that don’t agree with your illogical and borderline defenseless argument. To automatically dismiss at least some level of evolution is downright stupid, and not really worth anyone’s time but your own.
Both sides need to grow up and realize that you can disagree strongly with somebody without acting like a total tool bag.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:39 am
I think my face is proof that we used to me monkeys
January 6th, 2009 at 10:45 am
bucslim:
This is the most we’ve heard from you in ages. I see the change in medication is doing its job. Good. Give modern medicine time, and it gets things right.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:49 am
foebea, (291),
“DiscHuker: As I don’t have the required background to fully backup my statement in an intelligent fashion, I will definately conceed that to you. If I had more knowledge on the topic I would attempt to debate the truth upon which it is based. My assumption is that it is based on two things, not related, and not necessarily combined. The harvest, and control of the people.”
*It* being religion s.l.
How about an overwhelming third. The need of curious, expanding Homo sapiens minds everywhere to explain the inexplicable. Surely the birth point of both science and religion? Science took the path of what became explicable or might be explained by observable evidence. Religion continued and continues to claim the lot. I am not denying anything here, by the way, just defining. Homo sapiens, especially when in a position of social power or authority, also has great difficulty in coming to terms with that deceptively simple little phrae, “Sorry, we/I don’t know.” Knowledge = authority. Authority = knowledge. Q.E.D.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Randall – at least my medications don’t cause me to make fart noises when I’m rolling around in bed, unlike some people I could mention.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:57 am
buc, (352),
“Gotta spread some love for my girl roxy who brought us all back to sanity with lurid tales of necrophiliac dogs.”
It’s got me thinking about a religion I had in mind for another thread: reincarnation. (Carnation, what else for a botanist?) That bow wow couldn’t have been called Edgar Allen Poe in another life, you don’t suppose?
January 6th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Forsooth,
By my Darwin’s points shall ye recognise me as an evolutionary. Yeah!
Is it because I happened to have arrived at third agehood, or has anyone else noticed how ears keep on growing while the rest of us stops and eventually begins to shrivel? I used to have such admirable shell-likes too. So questions: Do one’s Darwin’s also keep on getting larger too? And WTF with all this improved aural apparatus do we just keep getting deafer and deafer as time goes on (see appropriate Simpsone clip)?
Pardon? What was the answer? Could you please write up a bit louder.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:44 am
When Rolo Tomasi spouts off obviously flawed arguments, the advocates for evolution who proclaim it as undeniable fact come out in droves to tear him apart, belittle him, and humiliate him.
But when reasonable people with reasonable arguments, 332 and 349, speak out, they are conveniently ignored. I would really like to see someone who is so sure of the evolutionary theory respond to both of them they way they did Rolo. After reading the other comments and seeing it repeated over and over that evolution is practically a fact, I would think that it would be easy.
This seems to happen on this site whenever this subject is breached.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Great job !!
The latest Scientific American has some cool stuff about evolution in humans like ability of adult humans to digest milk and cause of hiccups.
Could you please generate more related lists
Thanks
January 6th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
I don’t totally agree regarding the appendix. Some current theories surrounding probiotics mention the place of the appendix as a central repository for useful bacteria in the body.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
But, hey. What do I know? I’m a single guy still living with his mother.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
I’m such a loser for posting these comments.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I agree, Randall and I love you so much!
January 6th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Me, too.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
369 asked for a reply to 332.
The following goes further back from evolution than I would care, but here goes:
“The universe on the other hand is within time and therefore has a definitive beginning. You can’t simply say it’s always been there.” (332)
I’m neither physicist, mathematician, theologian or philosopher, but my gut reaction is this:
No, any more than you can say you or I have always been here. But you can reasonably hypothesise that the components (or forces) we are made of have always been around in some form or other and always will be *here*. That presumably applies as well to the forces (laws of nature if you like) that shape us . It may not be so, but then you have to come up with an equal or better alternative and one which avoids a finite (mortal) beginning and ending to *everything*. If a supernatural God dunnit makes sense to you, fine, I have no problems with that. My wife believes the same. For me however, that simply leaves a mass of irreconcilable contradictions unless I consider that *God* and *everything*, including ourselves, as one and the same thing, rather than elements apart. Using crude logic, I assume infinity has to embrace *everything*. Ergo, if you split *everything* into any number of parts, from God and His Creation (two) downwards, you are positing finites. For me a finite is something that can be counted. 1 God. 2 Jesus. 3 Holy Spirit. 4 Creation. If you have God as everything, there is no counting except for the infinite number of finites that go to make up that infinity, which include you and I. I’m sure far cleverer theologians than I must have come up with their answer to this. But didn’t they also find an answer to how many angels could gather on a pinhead?
OK. That’s the best I can come up with, given my educational and intellectual limitations. The nice thing about unquestioning belief is that you can lean on *systems* or gurus. When atheism isn’t simply indifference, it requires you to rely largely on your own resources. There are no Churches of Atheism. Nor a Bad Book that says, In the Beginning there was No God and He didn’t Make Anything. Hahaha. So start throwing your stix and stones. Or if you are an embarrassed fellow atheist, replace my homespun, cod-philosophy with a better reply.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Holy crap this is intense.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Foebea:
“Evolution on the grand scale cannot be tested in the same fashion, rather can only be inferred from available evidence.”
Yes it can. Scientists have done it with bacteria, with fruit flies, and have observed it in as little as 100 years with bats in North America when figs were introduced.
Even if you look at dog breeds, like mentioned beforehand; a labrador is more likely to mate with another labrador, before going on to a poodle or a St. Bernard. This means that the dogs are *beginning* to diverge into separate species. One animal isn’t just born a different species than its mother. Two “species” in the process of diverging become less and less likely to mate with one another until they do not mate in the wild at all, or barely – which then results in a sterile hybrid.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
As to the request to answer 349, I consider what we observe and experience in this life, as detailed there, and any conclusions or meaning we might draw, sit at least as comfortably in my *non-supernatural* overview.
Then take this part-sentence in 349:
“I disagree wholeheartedly with the conclusions of the theory of evolution”
I neither consider that to be a *reasonable argument*, as you state 369, nor is it answerable rationally. In fact, its pure Rolo or even protoRolo!
January 6th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Reyairia, (378),
Provided we bear in mind that a broadly different but equally compelling set of breeding barriers apply in the plant kingdom.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
STL Mo:
Very well said. I completely agree.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Acula, (369).
Finally. Are we living in a different website? I have seen evolution explained with the greatest scientific authority, care and detail in several different LV websites. Sure you aren’t letting a little worm of paranoia nibble away?
January 6th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
ya know if the whole planet would get over themselves and stopped being so analy retentive about others beliefs there would be a hell of less war. I mean seriously what are we all 5 years old get over it, agree to disagree.
I think all men will end up bald, ive been losing my hair since i was 18 and i have noticed a lot of others have been to, soemthing about us not needing the cover from the sun like we once did.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Interesting observation 369. Whether you believe in evolution or not, I highly recommend a book called, “The Biotic Message” by Walter James ReMine. It gives the most detailed study of evolution theories I’ve come across (much more than any university biology book, for example)… and it pays to be informed before venturing arguments and opinions. With this knowledge you will no longer gloss briefly over sickle cell anaemia as example of natural selection… you will see how things are much more complicated with the third allele present in the population in small numbers – an allele that is advantageous but does not increase in frequency because genes tend not to act alone.
You will understand that evolution requires an increase of information in the population. Natural selection may cause certain genes to be eliminated… which is a loss of information. Therefore, we cannot simply say natural selection automatically causes evolution. Yes, adaptation and natural selection have been seen, but through loss of information. Mutations that cause an information increase need to be seen for evolution to be supported by operational science (i.e. science using the method of repeatable experiments).
You will come to see there are different evolution theories. My uni biology book says evolution is a fact and that the theories are explanations for that fact. The Biotic Message helps us to note that evolutionists who subscribe to Gradualism have done a pretty good job of pulling apart Punctuated Equilibrium, whilst evolutionists who subscribe to Punctuated Equilibrium have likewise done a good job of pulling apart Gradualism. There’s so much more there on the debates between evolutionists that the general public and most students are never exposed to.
You will come to note Haldane’s Dilemma poses an incredibly important question. In a nutshell, the mathematics of population genetics, using the believed rate of mutation in humans per generation, can be used to calculate how much time is required for an apelike ancestor to evolve into a humnan. Food for thought and I would encourage anyone to check out Haldane’s Dilemma on the Internet. If you’re serious about the truth then you’ll check it out.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
how about a world pinnic rather world war 3
January 6th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
make that picnic
January 6th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Hemza3000, the comment after you number 22 Mikey. I rest my case. same with 26.
you’re all uneducated. you ignore fact. None of you have read the bible properly and ignorantly believe despite fact and logic. you’re an embarrassment. I assume none of you take any vitamins or would accept chemo if you got cancer, because as you all know, god has planned everything from the beginning and the above involved science to be made. hypocrites.
24 is right on.
its like you calling me an idiot for believing that cities have bulidings.
pfft. you’re dealing with an intellect that is way, way beyond yours (clearly)
January 6th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
I just find the thought of someone more powerful than us, created us, the universe, everything and nothing, silly. I wish I believed that when you died you went to a heaven and everything was perfect there, but I know that when you die, you’re dead. *poof* Gone. All that’s left of you is you’re rotting or cremated corpse.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Reyairia-
i think it was my comment on dog breeds you were referencing. i’m not a vet (i’m actually in the process of becoming a botanist, so cheers to anon the botanist!) but just from observation i don’t think it’s true that a lab will have any preference to mate with another lab when left to its own devices.
my point was the opposite, that domestic dog breeds are a brilliant example of artificial, human induced trait selection. (another place where this is very obvious is is traditionally bred livestock and agricultural plants. when the parents for new stock are controlled, be it by hand pollination, artificial insemination, etc. desired traits are concentrated/developed over time.)
when i was in south american cities with large street dog populations, those individuals that were not actually purchased pets taken in at night, seemed to be all tending towards “medium-large sized mutt” because of their indescriminent breeding. it’s very interesting to see that very small dogs (like my beloved pomeranian!) vanish from the feral population quickly. this may be because the are less able to compete for food and more likely to be killed in a fight, so their genes leave the population. or it may be because a small female dog impregnated by a large one is very likely to die trying to birth puppies to big for her frame and the pups die too, again genes selecting for small stature leave the gene pool.
a much better place to look for a species diverging into two is wild wolves and domestic dogs. they are still nearly identical in terms of genetics -and can produce fertile hybrids- but it’s pretty clear they are on (and have been on) diverging evolutionary paths.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
physics, 384.
“If you’re serious about the truth …”
Reads surrounding posts, especially 387, asks “What’s truth then, who defines it?”, leaps onto dead horse, flogs it mercilessly and gallops off … Nowhere.
Is tempted by the ebb and flow of this thread to ask where the human brain fits into evolution, but horse rises from the dead and advises against. Gives ex-dead horse a bale of hay in gratitude and exits stage left under own steam.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Loved this list
only ones i really knew about were the coccyx and appendix so learnt quite a bit!
January 6th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
@Davo, #387
Who said anything about a Bible?! I never said I was Christian.
And this: “I assume none of you take any vitamins or would accept chemo if you got cancer, because as you all know, god has planned everything from the beginning and the above involved science to be made. hypocrites.”
That is just shamefully bad logic. You know what happens when you assume right? Well, it also makes you look like a fucking idiot.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Wow you certainly are and agitated bunch, ya know that whole thing about everyone is entitled to their own opinion, agree to disagree and all that yada yada ohhhhhh and let not forget the one from when you were all 5 years old, if someone hits you dont hit them back. You would be suprised how much they apply to today, Hemza can you imagine how much nicer your day would be and how much less time you would be angry if you had just let it go, agreed to disagree and moved on………Just saying, seems a bit childish when you resort to name calling.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
lo-
“but just from observation i don’t think it’s true that a lab will have any preference to mate with another lab when left to its own devices.”
I have. My grandparents had one male labrador, a female labrador, a female beagle and a mixed breed. The labrador couple had 6 litters, meanwhile the labrador only had 2 litters with each of the other female dogs.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
@anthony p
Great now I’m the guy with the anger management problem…
I’ve honestly been trying to be civil here, I’ve been ridiculed and called names all throughout this thread, see for yourself. Honestly, I’m proud to say I didn’t lose my cool until the 392nd post.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Item #1 on the list was “The Appendix” and part of the description read: “most scientists agree with Darwin’s suggestion that it once helped to process the cellulose found in the leaf-rich diet that we once had…”
Absolutely – this is why 1.8-metre humans have an appendix approximately the size of their little finger (uninflamed) while a Koala – at just under 1 metre – has an appendix between 5 and 6 FEET long!
And Matt Ryan – As many wars and “uglinesses” have been perpetrated in the name of greed, wealth (oil, water, gold. land etc) as there have in the name of religion: World Wars 1 & 2 had nothing to do with religion – It was the Jewish CULTURAL ideologies & practices as opposed to their faith or religious practices that caused them to e despised by Hitler.
THe Wars of Alexander, The Persians, The Egyptians, The Greeks & Rome, The 100 Years War, The 30 Years War, The Napoleonic Wars, The Russian & French Revolution, The English, Spanish, American, Germanic Civil Wars, The Wars of 1812 and the Revolutionary, The Korean, Vietnam, Iraqui (Editions 1 AND 2) and Afghanistan – were ALL fought for reasons which had NOTHING to do with religion, faith or a belief in God.
Try and become a little less bigoted to those who believe in something greater than themselves – you might become a better person for it.
BTW – You’re going to burn in Hell, too!!!!
January 6th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
i will respond to 332:
“What we see in bacteria isn’t “molecules to man” evolution. It’s adaptation. It’s a loss of genetic information and not a gain. Sometimes these adaptations can be beneficial but it’s still a LOSS of genetic information.
This bacteria may be able to survive a man-made poison within a lab, but would be less adept to flourish in the wild and would likely be “selected” against. Inheritance of the mutation that allows them to resist antibiotics was simply already there in some bacteria or passed along by others. It’s nothing new, simply a resurgence of what was already present.”
this is simply wrong. a new mutation is not a “loss of genetic information” it’s the gaining of new. and 332’s understanding of antibiotic resistance in bacteria is flawed. see my comments 304 & 313 for details on how natural, evolutionary trait selection occurs in ALL living organisms and how new species form.
when a bacteria, lets say the one responsible for tuberculosis, is exposed to “poisons” not in some lab petri dish (those this too has definitely been done as a controlled study) but in many, many human bodies who are being treated for the disease there will sometimes emerge a few strains of the bacteria that are not killed but the administered “poisons” and breed on. they are now drug-resistant-tuberculosis, a real problem we humans face today.
there are real concerns that the widespread use of antibiotics in the modern world, in the food given to the animals we eat, the hand wash we use, and medicines that may be too freely prescribed (this last one is changing as physicians understand the threat) and often not taken long enough by patients who “feel better” or just forget to finish the full course are providing ample environmental conditions for many kinds of bacteria to become untreatable. this is why there is a constant quest for drug developing company to find/create new antibiotics -penicillin stopped curing everything a long time ago.
if you read my other comments i think they refute the points made in 332 and 349, even though they came before them!
and as a final note, “intelligent design theory” is a philosophical belief system, not a science.
it is not open to empirical testing and is not falsifiable, so it is not science, it’s philosophy.
this doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing to think about or even teach in the right academic discipline, just a VERY bad thing to teach in a SCIENCE classroom if we want our citizens to have any sort of education that can compete on a global level (that refers to the states, where this is such a big deal. i don’t know if other countries are struggling with this question.)
January 6th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
ah yes the awesomely controversial topic of evolution, I’m a religious guy myself, but i have absolutely no problem with the idea of evolution…religiously that is. God’s done crazier stuff like bringin people back from the dead, healing the blind and such, i certainly dont understand how he did that, and it doesnt offend me to think that he could have set evolution into motion, but scientifically its just not there. Adaptation is 100% true. Say its the start of the ice age, and there are fox(es?) that use to live in the plains and woods but now everything is iced over. they use to be red for the most part, but after a long amount of time almost every fox is white or grey in appearance. This would be because the fox already had the trait for white hair, and the ones with the white hair have an obvious advantage for hunting and hiding from preditors and over time the trait would take over aas dominate. Thats adaptation, something is already there, and it is brought forward by natural selection.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Reyairia- i can’t and won’t refute your experience, it’s real.
just remember that one male dog and 3 females is a VERY small test sample.
who’s to say who they would have bred with if there had been 100’s of choices? that’s why the street dogs interested me -there are TONS of them in some places -some governments go on periodic “cleaning” campaigns where they poison as many as they can, but they never all go away.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
353. Anon
You have no need to ask me for forgiveness for anything…it’s not my place…and it’s none of my business anyway.
I was simply making an observation from personal experience here on LV that I see a lot of intolerance when religion is brought up.
You disagree, c’est la vie…who starts these fights here is not something we are going to objectively know anyway…simply a matter of opinion.
Really, I don’t care what people believe. I consider myself a pretty libertarian and don’t really care…as long as you are not imposing your will on someone…believe whatever you want. I would vote for a satanic president, if they truly believed in individual liberty (full disclosure, I voted for Paul.)
What really gets me worked up is intellectual dishonesty. A degree from a university or a stated belief in what they think passes for logic does not an intellectual make. A belief in evolutionary biology does not in any way intellectually elevate one person over another who may believe in a alternative theory.
More often that not, religion is made into nothing more than a whipping boy for pseudo intellectual wannabes who somehow believe their atheism is proof of their superior intelligence.
It’s that condescendence, that air of moral superiority, their arrogant dismissal of the ‘idiots who believe in some boogy-man in the sky’ as mere children who could not possibly understand the complexity and depth of their self proclaimed brilliance, that unearned sense of self-importance…that is what is so grating.
Not that I am accusing you or anyone else specifically. In fact, I believe you are one of the more articulate posters here, and have wondered when we would have an exchange like this.
I am sure you would agree, it’s this intolerance and intellectual dishonesty that is rampant in most public forums on the internet that make discussing these topics nearly impossible.
You can be intelligent and believe in a higher power, just as you be intelligent and can deny the existence of said higher power.
I think, once again you would agree that the rub is in the respect you show, the tolerance you display, and the intellectually honest framing of your opponents arguments.
Respectfully,
m-plow
January 6th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
adaptation – proven, traits that are already there can become more prevelant through natural selection, but evolution as most people define it -evolving from one species to another, adding of information, goo to worm to slug to dog to monkey to person. COMPLETELY unprovable, more far fetched than OJ’s innocence
January 6th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
395 and down
Im not saying you have anger issues, i’m just saying that you are all argueing your beliefs and clearly none of you will give in because that would make you feel like you lost a little bit of yourself so why not agree to disagree and get on with your bloody lives, im telling you this is how wars start.
**Save the world 2009, agree to disagree and laugh at yourself***
As for the name calling, thats just a little sad to be honest. Thats gies for everyone.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Excellent list. One point about wisdom teeth however. I do not believe it is as much that as our diet changed, we have evolved to have smaller jaws. Rather, since the foods we eat are much softer and easier to chew than in our ancestral days, our jaws develop less as we age. I am certain that if you raised a child eating the same foods as our ancestors, his jaw would be large (Brad Pitt-esque) and his third molars would grow in just fine.
It doesn’t make sense that our jaws just evolved to be smaller because having ill-fitting third molars is a large evolutionary disadvantage.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Mr Plow,
Thanks for the reply. I’ll take the opportunity to walk back and give my ex dead-horse another bale of hay!
I was never in conflict with you personally. I think where and how we humans align ourselves spiritually and philosophically is not too different ftom politics. The fanatical extremes that are supposedly as far apart ideologically from one another as can be, often have far more in common than with their ‘moderate’ partners near the centre, who in turn have more in common …
I expect you to defend your corner against dishonest attack from your *opponents*. My job is to protect what’s important to me, although I admit to having ridden in defence of the Bible in LV when it was under absurd atttack. I was merely pointing out above that people who use the Bible to negate evolution and other science are exactly for me as your nemeses are for you. As dishonest, or perhaps sometimes even more so. For they unthinkingly accept as undisputed science what would otherwise nowadays expose them to ridicule (planet as a globe in space orbiting the sun, not flat and the centre of the universe, gravity and much else, even the concept of some flexibility in species as evidenced by proven domestic breeding programmes, etc.). But anything that appears threatening to (their) dogma and can still be denied is denied, and presented as mystic, inexplicable Divine work, with its alternative reational scientific explanation(s) pilloried as effective blasphemy.
Now that’s not how my wife, or you or the many religious folk I know and respect behave. But you know the attitude is alive and well and living in this very thread.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Once myself and everyone here has died and moved on to the afterlife, I and Darwin will be laughing at all your stupid anti-evolution faces.
I’m agnostic.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
anthony p-
“i’m just saying that you are all argueing your beliefs”
that’s actually a fundamental problem in this debate (not only here, everywhere) while religious beliefs are just that: beliefs, defined and reinforced by faith, science is not a matter of belief on its most basic level.
science is about observing the natural world and noting how things work -this part is not about “beliefs.” gravity is going to work no matter how much someone chooses not to believe in it.
now when it come to the larger theories people draw from many small observations, “belief” may enter the picture, like when someone says “there are 15, repeatable, sound experiments supporting theory A, and 2 supporting theory B. so the weight of the evidence supports theory A (at this point this is all the summation of observed and recorded phenomena, not beliefs) -so i choose to believe theory A is more valid (that’s were the belief kicked in, they were still free to support theory B and even design more experiments to find more support for it, in fact people making these choices is what moves science along!)
but it would be a mistake to see the scientific method itself as purely a belief structure, it’s designed to be the very opposite
January 6th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Screw you all! I’ll live in the “here and now” because there is no proof to one extent or the other! And I am a former priest! Find God’s proof in the day-to-day experiences that we all share. It’s not “biblical”, it’s not ” empirical”. It’s about believing in SOMETHING!!! It’s not the “name” you put to it, it’s the life you live behind that belief!!!
January 6th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Anon,
Well said my friend. Fair enough. See you around.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
sigh…….. So let me get this straight, people like to argue for the sake of argueing even when they know there is no chance of one side caving in leaving both parties angry and frustrated……..im starting to see why the world is screwed.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
lo:
Yeah, I agree. Further studies would have to deal with such things, but you have to admit, it would make sense if it were true.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I think the dead horse floggery of all this is pointed up by lo’s 397 comment.
It’s a very careful, informed and detailed explanation about bacteria all of us with a bit of nous should be able to pick up on and absorb.
What have opponents of it got to offer? They cannot carefully explain in similar detail some positive alternative theory to evolution to account for how all this observable action comes about/has come about, because no such alternative explanation exists (and I mean explanation, not statement of belief and faith, i.e. organic life is so complicated and wonderful the only answer is – doggonit, er, sorry, goddoneit). If it did, it would immediately be in the scientific domain (scientists are VERY ambitious folks!). All they can do is to treat this knowledgeable and detailed explanation by lo and others as an Aunt Sally and try to knock it down negatively. To do this they basically draw on information science itself in its openness provides (i.e., science’s healthy internal disputes, revelation of its own very occasional frauds, and so on). This is the classical fundamentalist ploy because there is no other available. And as we are seeing here, (a) it simply doesn’t work, but (b) even so, those who cannot win seldom admit defeat (Rolo grudgingly, but how s