[WARNING: Some images may disturb.] Slavery has been a part of human society since its beginning – and it continues to thrive today. This list looks at some facts about slavery that should (for the most part) be unknown to most of our readers. This is a look through history at how slavery has existed and survived through time.
Slavery was officially established in Virginia in 1654, when Anthony Johnson, a black man, convinced a court that his servant (also black) John Casor was his for life. Johnson himself had been brought to Virginia some years earlier as an indentured servant (a person who must work to repay a debt, or on contract for so many years in exchange for food and shelter – image of a contract above) but he saved enough money to buy out the remainder of his contract and that of his wife. The court ruled in Johnson’s favor, and the very first officially state-recognized slave existed in Virginia. Johnson eventually became very wealthy and began importing his own black slaves from Africa, for which he was granted 250 acres (at the time, any person importing a slave would be paid 50 acres per person). Eventually the unfortunate repercussions of this decision would come back to haunt Johnson when his land was confiscated and given to a white man because Johnson “was a Negroe and by consequence an alien.”
In the second part of the eighteenth century, slavery was beginning to disappear naturally in the United States as farmers were planting crops that required far less manual work. Many slave owners freed their slaves and it began to look like slavery would die out completely. But things were to change. In 1793, Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin (a device for processing raw cotton). This meant that a single man could process fifty times more cotton in a day than previously – making cotton a huge money making crop. This caused the almost immediate replacement of many crops with cotton, and slavery became once again firmly entrenched until its modern abolition.
The word “slave” comes to us from Byzantine Greek “sklabos” which was the name for the Slavic people. The reason for this is that the Vikings used to capture the Slavs and sell them to the Romans as slaves. The term only dates back as far as 580 AD as the Latin word “servus” was more commonly used before that for all kinds of servants – enslaved or not.
The Bible does not expressly condone or forbid slavery. In the New Testament, Jesus heals a slave and commends his owner for his faith. He does not take the time to condemn the slave owner for having a slave, nor at any point does he try to suggest that slavery is wrong. Saint Paul said this to slave owners: “Do not threaten [your slaves], since you know that He who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with Him” (Ephesians 6:9). The Old Testament goes a little further and reminds people to treat their slaves well. The most likely reason for this apparent moral discrepancy is that the Bible was penned at a time when slavery was not only widespread, but considered perfectly normal and moral – there was no reason to mention it as most people wouldn’t have considered it an issue worth thinking about. Slaves at the time were also generally treated much better than the slaves of modern times, and would usually end up being made free after a number of years servitude.
Liberia is a small nation on the west coast of Africa, surrounded by Sierra Leone, The Ivory Coast, Guinea, and the Atlantic Ocean. In 1822, Liberia was founded as a colony by American slaves who had been freed. So thankful were the slaves for the efforts of President James Monroe that they named their new capital city after him (Monrovia). The area was populated by various native ethnic groups and the American slaves had a tendency to look down on them as uncivilized. In 1847, the freed slaves declared independence and the nation was officially born. For its first 133 years, the country was a one-party state dominated by the Americo-Liberians. Ironically, the Americo-Liberians and their children were the only people considered citizens and allowed to vote. Liberia is currently the only (and first) African nation to have an elected woman (Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf) as its head. Liberian English (the official language in Liberia) is a transplanted variant of the English spoken by African American slaves in the 19th Century. The freed slaves turned Liberia into a replica of the cities they left in the United States – as can be seen by the now dilapidated Masonic Temple above which is in Monrovia.
In Africa, prior to the arrival of European slave traders, slavery was a normal part of life. The thing that makes it stand out from European style slavery was the fact that it was a sign of good reputation and honor if a slave owner treated his slaves with respect and kindness. The better treated your slaves, the more honorable and highly regarded you were. Manhandling a slave (as the Europeans were wont to do) was considered unethical and you risked your reputation if you did not feed, clothe, and provide quality surroundings for your slaves.
Charles Lynch was a farmer and American revolutionary from Virginia. During the American Revolution, he headed an irregular court which tried and punished loyalist supporters of the British. The sentences handed down were usually property seizure, flogging, or conscription into the army. After the revolution, Lynch became a member of the Virginia Senate. He is, of course, now famous for the term “lynching” or a “lynch mob”. Lynching of slaves initially started out as flogging, but within a short period of time this progressed to summary execution (usually by hanging). Lynchburg in Virginia is named for his brother John.
Slavery is an ancient practice; it is referred to in man’s earliest records such as the Code of Hammurabi (1760 BC, pictured above), the earliest known law code – from Babylon. It is mentioned in the Bible and some of the ancient philosophers (including Aristotle) believed that some men were born in a natural state of slavery – thereby making it moral to enslave that man (a nice way to justify it if ever there was one). Slavery in those days was often the punishment for debt – once the debt was repaid, the slave might be released.
While the Catholic Church has repeatedly condemned the idea of slavery, there was a short period in the 15th and 16th centuries when it was allowed by special papal permission. The Pope who gave permission was Pope Nicholas V (pictured above) in 1452 when he issued a special bull (a formal letter issued by the Pope) allowing King Afonso V of Portugal to enslave pagans caught during wars. The pertinent text is:
“We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property [...] and to reduce their persons into perpetual slavery.”
In 1537, Pope Paul III returned to the traditional anti-slavery view of the Church.
According to studies done by anti-slavery groups, there are currently more slaves today than at any time in history! Three quarters are female and over half are children. It is believed that there are around 27 million people in slavery right now. Furthermore, this number does not include people who are not technically slaves but are in a form of servitude tantamount to slavery. This is sometimes called “unfree labor”. The average slave today costs around $90 – whereas in the past they cost upwards of $40,000 (in today’s money). A study done at Berkeley University estimates that there are around 10,000 slaves in the United States at the moment. [Source]
Contributor: JFrater
























January 14th, 2009 at 1:41 am
Hahahahaha!!!:).. good list by the way:)
January 14th, 2009 at 1:42 am
Excellent list! Amazing history.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:47 am
I am amazed to know fact no. 1!!!!
January 14th, 2009 at 1:49 am
well,kinda boring but educating list!!!
January 14th, 2009 at 1:57 am
I love you Spartacus..
January 14th, 2009 at 2:00 am
ooh nice list! interesting stuff
January 14th, 2009 at 2:06 am
I wished I whus a Slave!!!
January 14th, 2009 at 2:07 am
I could have sworn this list was by rushfan so i was really surprised to see frater’s name at the end. But i must say great list and there is nothing boring about it. The facts were quite facinating if i may add.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:16 am
I wonder how many slaves are in Canada?
January 14th, 2009 at 2:17 am
im kind of confused why Johnny (comment 1) is finding it so funny. slavery is like one of the most UNfunniest things there is.
good list, but im shocked by no.1…it seems unreal that there are more slaves today than ever!
January 14th, 2009 at 2:23 am
wow really interesting
January 14th, 2009 at 2:28 am
I am so glad you mentioned the situation of slavery nowadays. It is so shocking that in this modern age there are millions in slavery. Including Eastern European women literally chained to beds here in the US, and young children servicing foreign sex tourists in the East, and of course the little guys who make the rugs.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:36 am
Char: I found it quite shocking too – but it is fact. I guess that we should all make our friends more aware of it – it could be happening right under our noses!
January 14th, 2009 at 2:45 am
I agree, its scary that it could be happening right next door (like other sinister things) you never know what is happening behind closed doors. I just cant believe it can still go unnoticed. Though there are cases of people being abducted and imprisioned quite frequently which go years without being found out so anything is possibly i guess!
January 14th, 2009 at 2:46 am
Nice, interesting list.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:57 am
slaves are great. I definitely want one!
January 14th, 2009 at 2:58 am
10,000 slaves in America…
Holy ****. That is mind blowing. How can that many exist?
I checked that link, and to be honest, it does seem like a bit of exaggeration, but the fact remains that there are slaves.
O_O
January 14th, 2009 at 2:59 am
I own a slave. He’s not black. So it’s not bad.
January 14th, 2009 at 3:00 am
emmstein.. well, maybe you shood be a slave for someone for a day and see if its really all that great eh?
January 14th, 2009 at 3:09 am
Haha at comment 18. That was very Hunter Thompson-esque I thought.
It baffles me how horrible life can be, but I think it’s nice to be given reality checks such as this list. The world sure isn’t no fairy tale for most people.
January 14th, 2009 at 3:11 am
Goddamn trolls. Good list though.
January 14th, 2009 at 3:12 am
slavery is now called OUTSOURCING
January 14th, 2009 at 3:24 am
I remember a news story a couple years back about a couple who were keeping a woman as a slave. She escaped and her “owners” were convicted of a litany of crimes, whatever they could stick to them (probably kidnapping, false imprisonment, that kind of thing). Now the whole thing is bizarre, but one of the things that really struck me was that the couple was very, very wealthy. I mean… Who is that cheap? They could afford to hire someone… why not do that? Why keep someone locked in the basement? There must have been some serious psychological issues going on there.
January 14th, 2009 at 3:25 am
Now what can possibly explode in controversy about this list?
Interesting list jf. I thought it was a rushfan job, too. I would have ordered the list chronologically. With Virigina at no 10 I thought it was going to be focussed on America.
January 14th, 2009 at 3:25 am
how do you define a slave nowadays ?…..
January 14th, 2009 at 3:26 am
I think that the 10,000 number is very low. I have heard figures of up to 100,000 slaves brought into the US every year. And this is going on all over the world, It is shameful. Thanks for bringing this list to our attention.
January 14th, 2009 at 3:31 am
When I went to college I was quite surprised to learn that Dublin was the slave trading capital of western Europe. You still here on the news about women being trafficked in for the sex industry. And every so often a teenage girl (usually foreign) going missing. They reckon a lot of them are abducted and forced into sexual slavery. It’s pretty scary to think that that kind of thing is still happening today.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:03 am
The link doesn’t mention where in the world these $90 slaves are sold. Not that I would want to buy one (and not that I wouldn’t…) but considering the fluctuating currencies it seems likely this number would be accurate in some area of the world where this would equal several months pay.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:24 am
I can’t imagine people being slaves today. I can’t believe we still let stuff like that happen to fellow human beings.
God I’m naive..
January 14th, 2009 at 4:49 am
Um…okay…this was mildly boring, seeing as how I already know a bunch of this stuff. I learned this in HIGH SCHOOL.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:52 am
Good list. When i was in school, history class always was kinda simple about it. I remember getting the underground railroad confused with the train tunnel to canada! Suprising with the history it has in my country. (Usa) wonder he it has changed.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:53 am
He= it . Stupid t9:-)
January 14th, 2009 at 5:04 am
Interesting list. I see my home State of Virginia on here quite a few times….
Another interesting fact…in 1999 either Hurricane Floyd or Irene destroyed the oldest town that was founded by freed slaves.
January 14th, 2009 at 5:30 am
its funny how people always say….
“i didnt know these kinda things are still happening today…”
well wake up , the world is really much worse today, you fools
January 14th, 2009 at 5:32 am
Sobering list. I was actually working on a list of modern-day slavery: kids bought by the UAE, mostly from India, to ride camels in races for example. Slavery is on the rise and a lot of has to do with the illegal sex trade. Also, isn’t Liberia known mostly for their almost constant state of civil war?
January 14th, 2009 at 5:45 am
And america is supposed 2 be the land of the free… Makes 1 think
January 14th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Item No 1 doesnt mean anything, $90 where? in Africa? against $40.000 where? in Europe? America?
January 14th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Chained guns on the list, g – slavery is a big part of African culture, and we should respect that.
Mad Swahili props.
January 14th, 2009 at 6:14 am
Blackrainbow ~ America IS indeed the land of the free. You shouldn’t let the fact that fucked up things happen here, as they do everywhere, taint all of America. America is still where people longing to be free GO to be free.
January 14th, 2009 at 6:26 am
I think an interesting fact to go on this list would have been that in ancient Rome (at least in the times of the republic), it was common for Greeks who were well educated to actually sell themselves into slavery in the hope of being bought as a tutor for the children of well-off romans. An educated Greek actually had a much better chance of having a good career as a tutor if they sold themselves into slavery rather than remaining free. As a slave they still received wages and were generally either able to buy their own freedom or were granted their freedom once the children reached adulthood or in their masters will. Many slaves in ancient rome (with the exception of the slaves used for mining and farming) were treated very well, were paid wages and could expect to be freed at some point in their lives.
January 14th, 2009 at 6:29 am
#7?
“The Bible does not expressly condone or forbid slavery.”
Really?…
Leviticus 25:
44 ” ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Exodus 27:
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
Luke 12:
42The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Exodus 21:
20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Yes, that sounds like the old testament reminding people to “treat their slaves well.”
Deuteronomy 15:
16 But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.
Remember, this is the word of god. If you still consider that NOT expressly condoning slavery, do society a favour and don’t ever sit in on a jury that’s trying someone for “accessory” to murder.
January 14th, 2009 at 6:39 am
One thing that I’ve often wondered about regarding slavery is the extent and outcomes of African slavery conducted historically by Arabs. This part of the slave trade outmatched anything done by Europeans in duration and (probably) numbers. However, we’re all very aware of the history of slavery and emancipation in the West and the resulting African diaspora in North & South America, the Caribean and Europe. I honestly know practically nothing about the descendants of African slaves in the Arab/Moslem world beyond the fact that the Saudi World Cup team usually features mainly black guys – and a quote from Wikipedia:
“Descendants of the African slaves brought to the Middle East during the slave-trade still exist there today, and are aware of their African origins.”
Compare this to our awareness of the culture and history of African descended populations of the US and UK and it’s like night and day.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:08 am
there is an orginazation called “love 146″ that is fighting the child sex-slave trade in the east. they give some more statistics on their site.
http://www.love146.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=35962
yes, this still happens. yes, it will continue to happen unless a concerted effort is made. no, these children have no one to stand up for them.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:28 am
i can’t believe #1..it seems a little unreal.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Excellent list Jamie. I’ve read recently of more than one case of families importing children as relatives, but of course they’re not; they are domestic slaves. Unfortunately, in many instances, they do not protest because life toiling 18 hours a day and living in a garage is still preferable to their life at home.
http://www.the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=7949
Rushfan: Unless they come to Canada to avail themselves of our superior social programs.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Good one, Mom. And hey, I don’t think we’re very far behind y’all on that front, unfortunately.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Sadly, many people unwittingly support slave labor in their purchases. If you google “slave free chocolate” you can find manufacturer’s that do not use slave labor. Substitute any word for “chocolate”, but I think that and coffee are two of the bigger culprits in the use of slaves.
Great list JF!
January 14th, 2009 at 8:00 am
i dont understand how there are 10,000 slaves in america?
January 14th, 2009 at 8:14 am
827kevin ~ Here’s one of many articles on slavery in the US:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22083762/
January 14th, 2009 at 8:22 am
Here is a “bump” for #41 – Skydiver.
Surprised none of the typical LV religious nuts are jumping on this one.
The word of God says be good to your slaves.
That statement itself makes me hate religion.
January 14th, 2009 at 8:26 am
http://www.amazon.com/Southern-Slavery-Was-Douglas-Wilson/dp/188576717X
There’s a great book that tells the truth about slavery in the Southern US. You can see from the reviews how a lot of people get mad when the truth interferes with the fairy tales they use to justify their culture of victimization and blame.
January 14th, 2009 at 8:41 am
I’m a member of the American Anti-Slavery Group, of which I joined two years ago after reading Francis Bok’s 2003 memoir, “Escape from Slavery: The True Story of My Ten years in Captivity—and My Journey to Freedom in America.” Bok was a happy Dinka boy in southern Sudan until Muslim raiders kidnapped him and forced him into slavery in northern Sudan.
I don’t mention this to pat myself on the back; rather to say that such an organization in America still exists. Here’s the web site:
http://www.iabolish.org/index.html
January 14th, 2009 at 9:04 am
cooper: can you not conceive of a time when slavery was socially acceptable, possibly needed? can you not conceive of a time when the term “slave” didn’t mean what you currently think of it to mean? your inability to think logically about this and automatically jump to hating religion shows your bias all to well. your slip is showing.
btw, equating religion with the Bible is incorrect.
also, is it possible to be religious and not a “religious nut”?
January 14th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Hey, I’m a “religious nut,” and I agree with Jamie’s characterization that the Bible is ambiguous on slavery.
Evangelicals who say that the Bible expressly prohibits slavery are wrong. There’s only one place that happens, in Paul’s first letter to Timothy, when he places slave traders in the same league with murderers, liars and adulterers.
The apologetic stance, that slavery as we know it today (based on race, religion or etc.) just isn’t the same as it was in Biblical times, is however quite correct. Masters were urged to treat their slaves well just as slaves were urged to obey their masters. Slavery today is based, by and large, on hate. In Biblical times, it was much more complicated, and slaves could actually legally buy their way to freedom or become members of the family. You could even sell yourself into slavery to pay off debt.
But why does the Bible seemingly condone what we today recoil at in horror or disgust?
Well, that would actually require a full Bible lesson to explain, and I’m sure Jamie wouldn’t want me taking up server space laying it all out. If I summarize, I’d end up confusing the matter, but essentially, the Bible is primarily concerned with freeing us from the slavery of sin through Jesus Christ, not human bondage as it was practiced 2,000 years ago.
January 14th, 2009 at 9:47 am
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! This list is going to become another religion bashing event?!? This is getting OLD.
54. DiscHuker : You are a bigger man than I. I was finding it a little hard to find the energy to respond…
——————–
Anyway, what an interesting list. The facts on slavery today are apalling! And it makes it even sadder when you realize that most of those people are sex slaves. I saw a movie recently that touched upon the subject (the name escapes me). It was about two American teens who get kidnapped on a trip to Europe and are sold into slavery. Such a sad, scary movie but I would definately recommend it!
PS- Does anyone else find the story of Anthony Johnson slightly amusing? He basically bit himself in the a**….
January 14th, 2009 at 9:54 am
As Americans, we hear the words “land of the free” and automatically think that we are safe from things like this. It’s true slavery is illegal here by law, but sadly it doesn’t mean it can’t still happen. I didn’t know there are more slave today than ever, that seems hard to believe.
And in ancient times, slaves were treated more as servants rather than animals. In modern times, slavery is synonymous with hate and violence. I think slavery is just a part of human nature. It’s just one of those things that has been around forever and will never fully go away.
January 14th, 2009 at 9:56 am
This was really an interesting and informative list. I am however a little suspect of studies coming out of Berkeley so I think I will do a little research of my own to see if it’s legit and find out what Berkeley is considering slavery.
January 14th, 2009 at 9:57 am
I had a feeling that “slaves” and “Slavs” were somehow related in semantics.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Bob – thanks for the Amazon book link.
A fascinating diatribe/apology for slavery is George Fitzhugh’s Sociology for the South, Or the Failure of Free Society, published in the 1850s.
It’s highly readable and entertaining, because it is unintentionally hysterical. Fitzhugh’s Sociology for the South and companion book, Cannibals All, were supposed to be an answer to the Northern abolitionists. Fitzhugh argued that slavery was a good thing because slavers cared for their “workers” while Northern industrialists cared not a whit for theirs. He argues that “free society” is an abject failure when compared to the wonders of slavery. In this, Fitzhugh has a grain of truth, because the conditions for workers in northern factories in the 1850s were appalling. But it also represents the best defense of Awerican slavery – the best defense of a bunch of lame defenses, that is.
Still, Fitzhugh is highly entertaining to read today, if only to understand just how far some Southerners would go to defend slavery.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:22 am
wow, just, wow; this list is excellent! really interesting and educational!
i love the listverse!
January 14th, 2009 at 10:23 am
The picture on #4 isn’t of lynched slaves. It’s of lynched freemen on August 7, 1930:
From Life Magazine (http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/lm18.html):
Lynching 1930
A mob of 10,000 whites took sledgehammers to the county jailhouse doors to get at these two young blacks accused of raping a white girl; the girl’s uncle saved the life of a third by proclaiming the man’s innocence. Although this was Marion, Ind., most of the nearly 5,000 lynchings documented between Reconstruction and the late 1960s were perpetrated in the South. (Hangings, beatings and mutilations were called the sentence of “Judge Lynch.”) Some lynching photos were made into postcards designed to boost white supremacy, but the tortured bodies and grotesquely happy crowds ended up revolting as many as they scared. Today the images remind us that we have not come as far from barbarity as we’d like to think.
This lynching picture inspired this song:
STRANGE FRUIT
Southern trees bear a strange fruit
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root
Black body swinging in the southern breeze
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees
Pastoral scene of the gallant south
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth
Scent of magnolia sweet and fresh
And the sudden smell of burning flesh!
Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck
For the sun to rot, for a tree to drop
Here is a strange and bitter crop.
– Music and lyrics by Lewis Allan, copyright 1940
One of my favorite singers performing Strange Fruit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs).
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching):
The ideology behind lynching, directly connected with denial of political and social equality, was stated forthrightly by Benjamin Tillman – governor of South Carolina and later a United States Senator:
“We of the South have never recognized the right of the negro to govern white men, and we never will. We have never believed him to be the equal of the white man, and we will not submit to his gratifying his lust on our wives and daughters without lynching him.”
January 14th, 2009 at 10:30 am
How do I get one? I want a slave for real, but can’t find anywhere online that provides info
January 14th, 2009 at 10:30 am
I saw a news story about sex slaves being imported to the US, so the 10,000 figure doesn’t surprise me.
I’m sure the slaves nowadays are treated nowhere near as respectfully as they used to be.
Q: The statement “there are currently more slaves today than at any time in history” – does that compare the 6+ billion people on earth today compared to the past or is it a general number comparison?
January 14th, 2009 at 10:34 am
WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA THERE lil’ fellas. Let’s all just step back a pace or two from the nonsense rhetoric here. Both sides just calm down and get a hold of yourselves, or I’ll turn this car around… and so help me–you’ll all be hurtin’ for it if I have to.
Now let the historian speak, and straighten out your little factoids.
STL Mo, and Jamie (who wrote this) and others… let’s correct this somewhat apologetic attitude towards ancient slavery, shall we? A) We’re talking about the ENTIRE ancient world, and so practices from one culture to another were slightly different, and differed over time. B) slavery, whether ancient or otherwise, was and is most certainly a terrible evil and injustice. Now, were the lives of SOME slaves in, say, ancient Greece or Rome tolerable? Sure, if you didn’t mind being at the mercy of not only your master but more importantly, the state. Let’s remember, for just one instance, that slaves were practically REQUIRED to be tortured when they were put in a position to testify at legal proceedings and such. And yes, while PERSONAL slaves (i.e., slaves who were the personal property of individual households and individuals, as opposed to “state” or we might even say “corporate” slaves–who were doing forced labor in mines and on great farms) could often–but not always–manage to buy their freedom, and sometimes had fairly easy tasks to perform, this is by NO means true of ALL personal slaves, and is CERTAINLY not true of the vast number of slaves toiling in state-run industry (such as the aforementioned mines) or on the aforementioned farming operations. The life of such slaves was brutish, terrible, and one might say mercifully short. The Romans (as everyone knows, I have it in for those bastards) were particularly cruel to these “state industry” slaves, but even Randall’s beloved Greeks didn’t treat their “state slaves” with what we would call delicacy or kindness. And the numbers of these slaves made up a HUGE chunk of the overall number of slaves in Greece from the Bronze Age up until its fall to Rome, and of course in the Roman Empire.
But let’s also recall that the life of ANY slave was hardly hunky-dory. Oftentimes slavery was the only recourse left to someone who had gotten into debt trouble. And certainly it was the plight of any conquered people. Evidence shows that most of the slaves in Bronze Age Greece (during the Mycenean era, in other words) were in fact “state” slaves, and there is in fact little evidence of “personal” slavery at that time. These slaves were almost all captured individuals–and often whole families–from wars and piratical raids.
Regardless of how one got to slavery, it was certainly no fun and not to be made light of. Even a kind taskmaster is a taskmaster, and while there were some laws, both written and unwritten, protecting slaves to a certain extent, they were nevertheless at the mercy of their owners and particularly at the mercy of the state. Slaves could be put to death for the most minor of infractions–and at any rate–if you think losing your freedom to end up working from dawn to dark with no life to live but your own is anything like being a modern wage slave, think again. It was never an easy or interesting life, and the despair of knowing that one could remain tethered completely to the whims of others forever must have been at times awful to contemplate. Beatings, floggings, the occasional torture, and even just plain old humiliation added further misery to the mix.
NOW, yes… in fact SOME Greek philosophers raised their voice against slavery, from the days of the Ionians in the early classical period all the way up to the Hellenistic era. They recognized that slavery was an injustice and an evil. Sadly, they were voices in the wilderness compared to those great defenders of the status quo, Plato and Aristotle, who were both noblemen and had, therefore, little care for the plight of slaves, particularly foreign ones. Aristotle, indeed, laid the groundwork for centuries of continued slavery by stating that some men were “born” to be slaves. The asshole.
Slaves in Eastern cultures such as Assyria, Babylon, and Persia could be even worse off. Though at times certain eastern cultures passed laws offering some protection to slaves, for the most part they were viewed as nothing better than chattal, a particularly low status in cultures where even the ordinary “free” citizens were not free at all, but were viewed, rather as slaves of the king or emperor.
So enough with that. Not one of us here would volunteer to trade our present existence to be a slave even in the most enlightened of cultures or for the kindest of masters, so let’s close the book on this talk about it being passably okay in any way, shape, or form.
NOW… ON THE OTHER HAND, to those of you railing against Christianity because the Bible doesn’t speak up against slavery—come now.
In point of fact slavery WAS an absolute institution in the ancient world. It was an economic necessity, in fact. Cheap slave labor drove the economies of EVERY single ancient culture, and while it was nevertheless an evil, to expect the ancient world to have given it up out of moral indignation would be tantamount to expecting us moderns to give up ALL of the goods and services that we enjoy and have enjoyed for over a hundred years, because they have been produced, manned, or otherwise supported by labor working under awful conditions and for terrible pay. This continues to this VERY day–we live off the exploitation of others, each and every one of us–and let’s see any of you holier-than-thou types say otherwise. The roots of our very economies is BASED on the exploitation of not only foreign cheap labor, but oftentimes (and particularly in the not too distant past) on the exploitation of labor within our OWN countries. Recall, for instance, the terrible conditions that industrial workers labored under for over a hundred years, and still to some extent labor under. Recall the sweatshops and union-busting practices of employer overlords. Recall the story upon story of godawful conditions that people worked under in this country ALONE until well into the 20th century and sometimes beyond. Recall the terrible evil of child labor, which continues in many foreign countries so that we can have our clothes and shoes produced for us and any number of other goods.
I could go on and on and ON… and you all damn well know it to be true. Hang your heads in shame, as we all should.
So rail against the ancients for doing little worse (we throw a few pfennigs at our modern exploited labor, sure) but stop and think about the beam in your own eye before commenting on the motes in the eyes of our ancient forebears.
Now, as to religion and its silence on the topic—or even seeming to condone it—firstly, the Old Testament is what it is–the product of a very ancient culture that fit right into the practices of all other ancient cultures. Why do we expect some unique morality from the ancient Hebrews just because modern Christians can be so damned sanctimonius? But more to the point, let’s address Jesus Christ’s silence on the practice of slavery.
But wait… let me post this first and then I’ll get on with that topic, as it will require more time still.. and I want you clowns to read this, each and every one of you.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Here’s interesting facts about slavery which are bizarrely omitted from this list :
- Arabo-muslim slavery started before and lasted longer than the trans-atlantic European slave-trade and concerned many more people. Black slaves brought to Arabia were systematically castrated which explains the absence of black people in Arab nations although their numbers were humongous.
- One of the reasons for European colonization of North Africa (mainly from France and Spain, and wars against north African territories by the English, Dutch and French) is because of the “Barbaresques” (french word.. I don’t know the translation in English) who were north African pirates who raided the coasts of southern Europe. It is estimated that a few millions of European were subject to slavery under north African pirates. Since the Ottoman empire couldn’t handle these pirates the Europeans decided to take control over north Africa which evolved into colonization.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:37 am
I love Randall…too. I didn’t know this much about slaves. I knew most of it though. I went to school in a real urban area were most of us were african american, so my history teacher always spoke on this issue. Its sad to hear so much of it going on today.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Well spoken Randall, well spoken.
Wish I could say the same for Dischuker, but I simply cannot agree with this:
“can you not conceive of a time when slavery was socially acceptable, possibly needed?”
If a thing’s worth doing, it’s worth doing right. Buying somebody and forcing them to do it for you is not doing it right.
“can you not conceive of a time when the term “slave” didn’t mean what you currently think of it to mean?”
As far as I’m aware, the term ’slave’ refers to somebody who by some means or another was forced into manual labour without wage or recompense. Am I wrong?
“your inability to think logically about this and automatically jump to hating religion shows your bias all to well. your slip is showing.”
It’s illogical to condemn the writers of the Bible for condoning slavery? Come come now, aren’t you showing a little bias too?
“btw, equating religion with the Bible is incorrect.”
The Bible is a book of religion, is it not? Are you one of those people (don’t take that the wrong way… I don’t mean “you people” per se…) who say that Christianity isn’t a religion?
“also, is it possible to be religious and not a “religious nut”?”
‘Nut’ is a terrible word to use, as it has connotations of extreme lunacy and mental disturbance. However, everyone is capable of beliefs which seem to others to be irrational.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Randall,
You seem to be hinting that I was writing that slavery was hunky-dory in ancient times. Uh-uh. It sucked. That’s why I was saying that the Bible writers were telling people how to cope well within a lousy system: Slaves, obey your masters, and masters, be kind to your slaves. Note everyone did that, of course.
I wasn’t meaning to imply the entire ancient world treated slaves well, however; though it seems you think I was. Far from it. That’s why I used the word “urged,” meaning that they were encouraged to do so.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:05 am
STL Mo,
To say that the Bible writers encouraged people to cope well within a lousy system is a little selective, isn’t it? The Bible also encouraged people to take slaves and concubines as a matter of course.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Good list. I really like the picture that accompanies number 5.
I checked out the Free the Slaves source link… it was reminding me of a book I once read called “The Working Poor- Invisible in America”.
I recommend that book to anyone who has an interest enough to read it. It’s just testimonies from all sorts of impoverished folk in America… some impoverished by their own choices in life… and some are almost slaves.
http://www.reviewsofbooks.com/working_poor/
January 14th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Frank (28): it varies from place to place – $90 was average. I believe the going rate in Haiti is only $40 per slave.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:12 am
rushfan (35): yes – Liberia is now mostly known for its civil wars – but from what I could tell in my brief research, things are now improving. The first civil wars broke out because of the one party Americo-Liberian government – the current leader is an ethnic Liberian though her father or grandfather was raised by Americo-Liberians.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:12 am
NOW…. as to the teachings of Jesus, and his failure to point moral indignation at slavery….
Oh ye fools of little imagination, knowledge, depth and poetry….
Okay. I know DiscHuker and others of Christian standing would disagree with me (too bad, because it happens I’m right–and why? Because I’m always right, that’s why) but in point of fact the best and I believe the only way to make sense of the mission, teachings, and very existence of Jesus Christ is to view him as, in essence, a buddha. This doesn’t mean you gotta be a Buddhist to understand Jesus. No, what I mean is, the message and mission of Jesus–and in particular the “philosophy” one gleans from him–VERY much parallels the practices and teachings of the Buddha, and of Buddhism in general. I personally doubt Jesus went east and got this from learned Buddhist scholars during his “missing years.” Frankly I think this is kind of insulting to Jesus, who was clearly intelligent enough to have come to these thoughts on his own. Regardless of whether you think Jesus was a deity or not, one thing you have to admit about him was that he was no intellectual slouch. He was certainly very well versed in the sometimes arcane teachings and history of Hebrew religious tradition–no small feat when back then, as today, you have to be pretty damn scholarly to make it by as a Rabbi. This is a religion that is textual in the *extreme*, let us remember–not like the “gee let’s dance in a circle with flowers and thistles and that pretty much sums up our theology” of certain pagan religions which shall go nameless.
Moreover, Jesus could argue it out with the best of them, and in reading between the lines of the Gospels, it’s clear that he was one wily, clever, and quick-witted hombre, and even your usually egotistical Randall would’ve thought twice about playing Trivial Pursuit with JC, let alone taking him on in Scrabble.
Okay, why have I said all this? Well let’s get back to this Buddhist angle. I bring that up because anyone who knows anything about eastern religions knows that in the philosophy/theology of such, one is expected to go deeper than the mere appearances and veils of the world around us. Or as the great Joseph Campbell put it, the evil and misery of the world is merely a small foreground in the great wonder, mystery, beauty–and in essence GOOD—of the awesomely huge BACKGROUND that is… what? Well, all of existence, all of the cosmos, all of time, and, basically, of god. The evils of this world and existence, yes, can be fought against–but they can also be accepted–as just one of the threads that runs through the grander tapestry. Fight or acceptance, both are threads of their own, and all make up the larger picture which we have to struggle to glimpse.
The morality of the east, then, is not based on the dichotomies we’re so used to. It is not black/white, good/evil. It recognizes that the universe–god–is not a separate duality, but that god/the universe is ALL.
Now let’s get back to the solid ground of the message of Jesus. What is his message? Overall it is to let go of this world, to knock on the door of the different sort of existence he offers. Modern Christians kind of ignore this and instead focus on the assumed (prose-driven) guarantee of a sweet afterlife if you only accept Jesus as your savior. But this is, I think, the simplistic reading. The deeper reading, I believe, is that Jesus was all about teaching us the same things that the Buddha taught–to recognize that in essence we are all the same–all brothers–and that the focus on a life where we punish, hate, fight and destroy others–or simply focus on our own well being without a thought to others–is an ego-driven existence that is in itself an evil. IMPLICIT in this, then, is that ALL things are wrong that lead us away from the realization and acceptance of an existence where we are ALL the same–hence the story of the wealthy man who wants to follow Jesus, but finds it too difficult to leave his worldly possessions behind. Or the man who wants to bury his dead relations before he’ll pick up and follow Jesus. Leave the dead to their dead seems a cruel notion, but the fact is that every time Jesus offers a teaching moment like that, it is geared to making us grasp and understand the sense of the larger background truth that exists behind the veil of our small, mean ego-driven existence.
Slavery, in this sense, is just another of the countless injustices mankind subjected themselves to. To expect Jesus to have singled it out is asking to turn him into a mere commentator or rabble-rouser making reportage on the miseries of his time. Jesus was above and beyond that. Again, it seems cruel and even hypocritical if you look at it from a narrow point of view—but then that’s forgetting, completely, that there was nothing narrow about Jesus’ message. Whether you think he was god or not, it must be realized that he was here to teach a new kind of thought and existence, and to have focused on a laundry list of “issues” would have lowered that message to the level of mere reformation of society. But only PART of what Jesus was doing was meant as a reform of society. The larger point was a reform of EVERYTHING we know and understand about our own existence.
Slavery, next to that, is a small thing, only a little worse or different from the countless other miseries we subject ourselves to, as human beings–such as war, greed, intolerance, hatred, and so on.
Sorry for all the pontificating–but I felt I had little choice.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Morono (37): $90 is the world average slave price today. $40,000 was the world average slave price back when it was in its heyday.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:20 am
GTT (55): I agree – the Johnson story is one of the most disturbingly ironic stories I have come across.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:20 am
STL Mo:
Don’t get defensive. I wasn’t meaning to single you out. I understand what you were getting at, but the point I was making was that, on the one hand, there is just plain no defense of slavery on the basis that it was sometimes fairly benign. And then, on the other hand, it is no indictment of Christianity, or Jesus, that at the time neither he nor the overall message was “anti-slavery.” Jesus wasn’t about being “anti” things, in the first place—his point was much deeper than that. But of course on another level he WAS anti-ANYTHING that was cruel, exploitative and injust. But some of these people would have wanted him to be an editorial writer—and as we know, his mission was a hell of a lot broader than merely ticking off a list of things to correct in what was then his society.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:22 am
STL Mo:
Sorry, I didn’t mean to say “defense” of slavery… I realize none of you were defending it. What I meant was, you were trying to defend Christianity and the Bible and so on… I understood your intent and motives.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:23 am
One thing to add to this list is as well as the African Slave Trade, is that there was a Native American Slave Trade as well. The islands that the last Discoverer of America, Columbus found, was ravished and destroyed from the Slave Trade. I believe, I don’t know for sure, there was near 2 million Native Ameicans on the Island but from trading them back to Europe and a revolt gave Columbus a reason to elimanate them and after that, just under 100 were left.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Randall, you are a very wise and intelligent person… Your critique of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ is astounding in its scope, depth and insight. In the last five minutes you have completely rewritten the way I think about Christianity.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:42 am
#25. phlegm thrower – how do you define a slave nowadays ?…..
=========
Like this:
http://www.blackberrycool.com/2008/07/workers-still-check-blackberrys-on-holidays/
Did you know that those shackles used to restrain prisoners (and sometimes slaves) were called Blackberries?
January 14th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Chickensoup:
Thank you very much, and it means a great deal to me if I’ve been in some way a positive influence in anyone’s spiritual journey.
January 14th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
hmmm I knew all except for #10… I think most slaves in the US are chinese, who are forced to work in a house and are unaware of the laws.
I have also heard that sometimes they know they could be free here BUT the owner has something over them, such as a family member hostage back in their home town.
January 14th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Randall – thanks.
Your take on Jesus is interesting, and you hit a lot of things that annoy me about Americanized Christianity. You’re certainly right, people expect Jesus to have explicitly said this or that about X, Y and Z. And they often find themselves disappointed.
Too many people treat Christ like a vending machine. Or they keep trying to force Him to fit into the prejudices and practices of the current age. Lots of American Christians and so-called Christians completely miss Jesus today, just like the Pharisees and scribes did back then. They keep looking for health and wealth and the good times while completely misunderstanding or misrepresenting what Jesus was/is all about. (Tune in to a Creflo Dollar, Robert Tilton or Benny Hinn show/infomercial if you want to see some things that’ll really turn your stomach. They’re about as close to Jesus and His message as Pluto is to the sun.)
Read John Chapter 8 (starting after the possibly apocryphal story of the adultrous woman) and you’ll read one of the most heated and nastiest debates in the whole Bible, where the people failed to see who and what it was that was standing right before them in the flesh.
(If Jamie’s interested, I could whip up a list of 10 things that are wrong with Americanized Christianity.)
January 14th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Every body has their own philosophy in life. Mine is “don’t believe anything I say.” Because my outlook is individual to me. It is mine – as informed or misinformed as it is. Please do not beleive me, because I will never convince you that my views are of any more value than those of your own.
January 14th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Getting back to the subject of slavery, I suppose I wonder whether the slave traders picked up anybody, or just those who weren’t working by any other means. I mean, did they round up all the farmers and mine workers and make them slaves. Maybe not. It was a viable market; those who needed an extra pair of hands around the house employed those with idle hands anyway. Imagine if this were done today. A group gathered up all the homeless and offered them work for somebody, in a house, with meals and a small wage. If I was homeless I’d jump at the chance. I suppose folks think of slavery as in the TV show ‘Roots’, with chains and beatings and such. I don’t think this was the case at all, the west was the ‘civilized world’ then, and what use is a slave half beaten to death? I’ve seen a lot worse done to modern slaves; it’s shocking the treatment some housewives put up with.. it really is. I sometimes think we have taken a huge step backwards when being ‘civilized’ (with high manners and etequette) went out of the window after the second world war.
January 14th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
STL Mo….
“That’s why I was saying that the Bible writers were telling people how to cope well within a lousy system”
The “Bible Writers”? The quotes I provided are supposedly the word of god himself! And it’s a system that HE created and gives the official “okie dokie” to. How could the system be “lousy” if he designed it, condoned it, and gave instructions on how to make it work?
If the apologetic stance is that the bible (or conveniently selected sections thereof) was to be taken literally in “biblical times” (whenever that is) and should now be taken allegorically, I’m sorry, that doesn’t hold an ounce of holy water, nor does it let god off the hook. It seems to me that god would have seen that we would one day frown on slavery, and include it as the 11th commandment, instead of promoting it as the norm.
Sorry GTT, I’m not bashing religion. I’m pointing out how terribly erroneous #7 is, when it claims that the bible doesn’t expressly condone slavery.
January 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I just wanted to point out that of the Bible verses skydiver quoted, only one of them was from the New Testament and that one is talking about servants (and is a parable, not meant to be taken literally). Most of the stuff that seems to be pro-slavery comes from the Old Testament.
I don’t know about other Christians, but I happen to believe that the Old Testament is a valuable historical document that tells us about the lives of an ancient people and the way they were called to live within the context of their culture. HOWEVER, I, and most other Christians I know, do NOT believe that the Old Testament in any way tells me what to do or how to act. No, I don’t follow the gazillion laws laid down in Leviticus. I look to the New Testament, and to the life of Christ Himself, to tell me how I should live.
I don’t necessarily agree with every word Randall said, but he makes a very good point: Jesus didn’t come to do what some of his followers wanted him to do. They were all, “Yeah, overthrow Rome! Fix everything! Make our lives perfect!” But as Randall points out, that wasn’t what Jesus Christ was about.
Now, leaving the religion thing behind for a moment… good list, jfrater! I enjoyed it very much.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
What use is there in being self righteous?
January 14th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Uh, Skydiver, Christians believe that the Bible is the “inspired” word of God, meaning that God inspired/directed and in some cases, dictated what they wrote. But there were still human writers.
And yes, you quoted from the Bible, but did you do so in context? (Just asking, not accusing.)
As for the rest, I’m not sure what you’re getting at as it relates to what I wrote. If you mean that certain things were to be taken literally at obne time and now no longer apply, that’s correct. For example, the types and shadow of the Old Testament were a preview of what would be fullfilled in Jesus Christ. In other words, we’re not supposed to be sacrificing animals and grains today because the temple sacrificial system went away with Jesus, the ultimate perfect sacrifice, who was/is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.
If you’re meaning that some Christians say that since God is the author of all government and therefore is the creator of (and condoner of) slavery, then I disagree. I’m honestly not sure how to answer that, though.
Could you state it another way, please?
January 14th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Kessie – “I don’t necessarily agree with every word Randall said, but he makes a very good point: Jesus didn’t come to do what some of his followers wanted him to do. They were all, “Yeah, overthrow Rome! Fix everything! Make our lives perfect!” But as Randall points out, that wasn’t what Jesus Christ was about.”
You’re both right!! They missed the forest for the trees.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
It’s ironic how the first official slave owner was black in #10. Although I do understand that he was not the real first slave owner just the first one to have signed papers.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
skydiver: the bible doesn’t specifically condemn insider trading, dog fighting, point shaving, drunk driving, gun crime or the child sex slave trade. by your argument that means that either God was sleeping on the job or he approves these things.
i seems your argument is in need of repair as it is leaking like a sieve.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Very good list and quite informative. Kudos to the author.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
OK, I take back every bad thought I had about the acidity of (some of) Randall´s posts. You, sir, are my new favorite writer. The image of you backing down from a Scrabble game with JC has made my day!
That said, the rest of your post regarding JC´s teaching gave me goosebumps. Beautifully said.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Great list.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
92. DiscHuker
Here I am trying to figure out exactly what I want to say in response to skydiver´s post and you go and put it so well. Well said.
skydiver: I also suggest you see Randall´s post above. He makes some very interesting points about the Bible.
January 14th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
There was a news report recently about an Egyptian girl who was sold to this rich couple and forced to work 18 hours a day. She would wash dishes into the night, slept in an unheated, unventilated garage, and wore a long t-shirt. When she told her parents about this, they told her that she was living in a better place than they were. The couple were discovered and sentenced to a few years in jail and deported. The news guy interviewed them at their home, in Egypt, and discovered that, yet again, they had another slave girl.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
GTT:
Thank you, I’m touched.
Donations and checks can be sent to “RANDALL” via List Universe. Jamie will forward them on to my Swiss bank account.
(You might also purchase my novel when it comes out…sorry, though, no discounts).
January 14th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Randall: Take a bow. And then make copies of your comment about Christianity and Christ. Many copies; should be required reading for all.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I´ll admit I was a little wary of using the word “goosbumps” in my post lest it lead to another creationism v. evolution debate!
January 14th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Oops, that word should be goosebumps. “Goosbumps” just sounds silly!
January 14th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Mom424:
I’m always bowing. In case you haven’t noticed, I kinda have a NEED for an audience.
In fact, a friend of mine observed quite shrewdly to me the other night that this could explain why I sometimes have problems working (on my own writing–the fiction stuff, I mean)… i.e., that I require an audience. Sad, really, to be such an egotist. I should do some kind of penitence.
Copies of the essay, by the way, will be available in the lobby on your way out.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
I knew all but 10, 5, 4, and 2. Hm, what a sad world we live in. And yet people who enslave others will always exist…
January 14th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Slavery for domestic help. Two words: Off spring.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Randall: And you wonder why I don’t compliment you too often.
Wouldn’t your need for an audience be well served by finishing your book? A published novel would be the ultimate stroking of your giant ego.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
WOW. Probably one of the best lists I’ve read here, Jamie. And the controversy in the comments! I’m hanging back, because every time I think I might have a point to add, I look again and somebody’s on it already! And Randall: excellent commentary on JC.
And can you beat the thorny ironies of slavery, especially in this country, past and present? I understand there are thousands of illegals imprisoned on farms in Florida and elsewhere in the South, with no communication with the outside world, who have no health care of any kind and pitiful little in the way of the necessities of food, clothing and shelter, and who are systematically murdered if they try to escape or get help. I wonder how soon our new President will address such issues, as well as the labor abuses of globalization which are indeed tantamount to slavery. But that slavery was legally established in Virginia by a black man seeking permanent legal ownership of another black man, only to lose all in the end because he was black … yikes!
January 14th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
I am Portuguese and I am certain we never had a King named Afonso V (Item nº 2). Our first king was called D. Afonso Henriques and we had two more Afonsos; his grandchild and his great-great-grandchild. You must be referring to Alfonso V of Spain…
Excellent site nevertheless…
January 14th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
I am cherokee (part) and a lot of my people were killed off because of diseases taht were unknown to us. and we had the choice to either become “white” or leave our land. great choice.
January 14th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
thank god someone knows that slavery still exists!!!
January 14th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
and for number one…what is the name of the shop i can buy me some black children slaves for 90$?
January 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
another fact: In the time of J. Caesar and Octavianus, former slaves became powerful and loyal assistants, to the irritation of the nobility (patres)
January 14th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Not that it makes it any less tragic, the number of slaves today is undoubtedly a consequence of the enormous population growth that has taken place in the last 250 years or so. The population of the world today is nearing 7 billion while in the 1700-1800’s it was around 1 billion, give or take (I didn’t actually look up that statistic so don’t go crazy on me if I’m a little off). If my memory serves me right there was something like 3.5 million slaves in America alone at one point; around a quarter of the entire population in the U.S. – now just imagine all the other places in the world and compare that number to only a billion people in the world. Truth is we’ve made tremendous strides in slavery, and besides poor countries the “modern world” doesn’t care about (where genocide is probably higher on the “moral atrocities” list) the slave trade is exclusive to wealthy sociopaths that get whatever they want; which is something seemingly impossible to get rid off. With enough money people will always be able to buy virtually anything.
Secondly, to Randall and others:
To a non-believer your argument is quite illogical. The idea that the bible is just being.. politically correct, I guess you could say.. is not an excuse at all; what I mean is some suggested he “couldn’t” denounce it because it was too drastically different from societal standards. The simple fact is human morality was not as advanced when the bible was written, just as our moral ideals today will be rendered obsolete in the future. Striping another human of their ability to practice free will is cruel and immoral.
Someone said Jesus didn’t denounce drunk driving and a couple other things; those things, first of all aren’t in slavery’s league of immorality, secondly – they weren’t right there all around him his whole life. Slavery was a regular fact of life and Jesus probably saw and interacted with slaves daily yet he never said, “imprisoning a man who has done no wrong is sinful.” He saw it everyday happening all around him and all he could mention was how “best” to do it. It’s like saying “if you must beat your wife, do it this way.” It was clearly a part of life and to comment on it but never denounce it – to even offer guidance in doing it is a paradox. You shouldn’t do it at all, there is no “right” way to do it. There is only one reason people are stretching out long threads of rhetorical acrobatics that attempt to rationalize the problem – their ideology can’t be wrong because the belief system that has shaped your life would be illegitimized.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
slave jokes:
whats the difference between tires and slaves? tires dont sing when you put the chains on.
Why don’t black people go on cruises? They’re not falling for that one again.
At our office party, a coloured girl came over to me and said, “I’ve got a ‘thing’ for white men.” I told her I had a ‘thing’ for black women: it’s called slavery.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
I had a slave girl once…with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
74. jfrater – January 14th, 2009 at 11:14 am
I’m still not sure you understrand what I mean, or maybe it’s the other way around. What I mean is this: I think that $40.000 is worth a bit more in a country like senegal, than it is worth in the USA. So I asked you to explain a little bit more, who are the persons who spend this $40.000, where do they live.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Interesting list, but the thing that stuck out to me the most was the photo of the guys hanging, and how nonchalant all the onlookers look. Sickening.
January 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Another excellent list good job. All the talk about slaves being treated differently throughout history has me wondering. Did the Roman`s and Greek`s treat them the same ? I know it wasn`t so good for them here in the U.S. Maybe slave had a different meaning back then.Just wondering.
January 14th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
DiscHuker: You’re right, the Bible doesn’t specifically condemn the child sex trade. It condones it.
January 14th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Where do you get that bullshit?
January 14th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
I tried very hard *NOT* to read today’s list. I knew it would upset me unduly, or even duly, and it did. Of course, Randall’s rant was right on point, as per usual.
Then I started thinking about about what makes us slaves today, voluntary slaves, that is. If you’re as lucky as I am, the reason you become a voluntary slave, is to protect and serve your family…your children.
I had a good, long run in the film biz, then a good, long run in the book biz, but as my health began to fall apart, I couldn’t maintain the attitude, the mental fortitude, so I took on part-time work…I worked 3 part-time jobs at the same time, for months…until my body said “NO MORE!” and I literally crashed. But I made it as far as I needed to, as far as getting my youngest off to Uni.
I’m sure that if I’d needed another year, my body would have granted me another year of 3 jobs a day at minimum wage.
Hell, I would have become a prostitute if it meant getting that last kid through school and off to Uni. (but I was too skinny and not young enough). Pride was not an issue. My only issue was my children, and what I still had to accomplish there.
I am shocked at the numbers of *actual* slaves still in existence in America. I knew the number was high, but not that high. And how do we stop it? How do we make an impact?
From what I’ve read, many of these people have arrived with full knowledge of what they are getting into. It’s a way of getting into America for them.
I’m not condoning this. I’m as angry as hell. How do we impact it? That is the question?
It’s like a leg with gangrene; all of the damage that shows is limited to the foot, but there is no X-ray machine available.
Do you just remove the foot, hoping the gangrene hasn’t spread secretly beyond bounds of what you can see, or do you take the leg to the knee, take the safe, but more aggressive route, and save the patient?
January 14th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
“In 1822, Liberia was founded as a colony by American slaves who had been freed.”
What is not mentioned is how it came about. South Carolina had passed laws emancipating slaves at a certain age or after a certain period of service, and children born of slaves were not [automatically] to be slaves. So a group of wealthy people bought land in what is now Liberia, and offered parcels to “free” persons of African descent. Perhaps trying to stave off questions of whether such people should be given rights, etc., of other people.
January 14th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
isn’t everyone that has a job working for someone or corporation a slave. it usually is OK you get paid for it. but they got food and shelter by picking cotton. isn’t that the same thing we do. some laborers bust there nuts in the end its for food and shelter.
January 14th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
basically we all are slaves unless you work for yourself.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I’m a slave to “the man”
January 14th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
wackedude; But you can quit without being hunted down, flogged, and returned to servitude. Or worse. Geez.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Randall: I normally find you arrogant, insufferable, and just this side of a troll, but your post about Jesus was excellent, and pointing out the similarities between his teachings and Buddha’s made this Omnitheist’s day.
January 14th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
I’ve been spending most of the morning wondering what to say about Randall and his posts, then Yun comes along and says exactly what I wanted to say – except that I would add Randall’s post about slavery to the list of Randall’s excellent comments.
Many Christians would be horrified to think that Christianity was like any other teaching (and a mere “human” teaching at that), but quite clearly it is.
I’m a bit worried that this discussion has focused on the Judeo/Christian heritage’s connection with slavery when there are so many other facets to discus, but there’s time yet.
I’m surprised that this discussion hasn’t full-on exploded though.
January 14th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Here are my favorite Bible verses pertaining to prejudism and slavery: (from Galatians chapter 3)
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus,for as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
How can people call themselves Christian and still believe that racism and sexism are acceptable? We are all equal in God’s eyes. This is the main problem I have with American Christianity. If you really follow Christ, how can you “look down upon” any group of people? How can you be filled with hatred towards others?
At least in the early part of slavery in the USA, people really believed that Black people were “lower” than white (and unfortunately some people still believe that) and that was how they justified treating slaves worse than they would treat any animal. Now in the US, I think most slaves are women, most in the sex trade, and they, too, are looked down upon as less than human.
That is the real evil that drives slavery: to make oneself believe that others are less than human in order to satisfy one’s own greed.
January 14th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
the word “sklabos” is still used today in the spanish language.
the spanish word for slave is “esclavo” or “esclavos” in plural.
basically still the same word used in ancient times.
January 14th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
BooRadley, one of the problems is with christianity, is that no one follows the teaching of Jesus. They don’t sell their posessions and give away ALL their money. they go for the cop out “do unto others” and still only do that half-arsed. All in all religion is a crock and the followers who get offended at athiests like myself don’t even do what their lord asks of them. prove me wrong people! sell your items and walk in the fottsteps of jesus! don’t be afraid, the lord will guid and rpotect you. (prediction: no one will do this, thus proving my point)
January 14th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Jesus commanded one *potential* follower to sell all he had and give it to the poor. He did not instruct everyone to.
Though I partially agree that many “Christians” do not follow basic teachings, like “Love one another as I have loved you”.
January 14th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
I would also like to thank Randall (73) for the beautiful, well-thought-out treatise on the role of Jesus in our world. You really captured what has been floating around in my brain for a while now. In the US, I am embarrassed to be associated with the “Christian Right,” because they have strayed from Jesus’s teaching that we are all the same, and should love one another as we love ourselves. Now it is just a political hate machine. I don’t want to let these people drive me away from the true message of Jesus Christ, but boy, is it hard!
I also loved your other big treatise on slavery, Randall, and I feel that I should be paying tuition to receive such expert teaching. I think you are very funny, too, but Bucslim’s still ahead of you there. Thanks, Boo
January 14th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
In my country you can literally buy small kids from poor people for just a few hundreds of dollars.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:36 am
From entry Number 7: “the Bible was penned at a time when slavery was not only widespread, but considered perfectly normal and moral”
So the Bible was written in a time when folks didn’t know much and weren’t very enlightened? Man, that explains allot.
January 15th, 2009 at 2:18 am
Interesting
Quite horrific really
But well written
Good list x
January 15th, 2009 at 7:26 am
118. Mikey – January 14th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
DiscHuker: You’re right, the Bible doesn’t specifically condemn the child sex trade. It condones it.
Ah well… I guess ignorance (and prejudice) is bliss…
January 15th, 2009 at 7:31 am
I met a man when I was living in Pittsburgh, who claimed to have worked in the British Navy or something equivalent. We got to talking about various things and eventually the topic of the Arab world came up, since he’d been there, and I’m always fascinated by other cultures.
Well, he told me that some Arabs still go raiding into Africa, along the Atlantic coast, for slaves. He also claimed to have been on a warship once, and they spotted a slaver ship heading south along the coast to get slaves, and that there was nothing they could do about it. This was because the ship was not in international waters, and certain UN charters and resolutions prevented them from interfering.
Also, I’ve read in some places where a lot of the kids who go missing in America wind up in Arab and Asian countries, usually as sex slaves – especially the blond haired, blue eyed-girls(Arab countries) and green-eyed girls(Asian countries).
Unfortunately, at the time I read these, I was on public access computers, and broke, so I have no articles to reference back to, and after looking for a while, I can’t find. If I run across them again, and remember, I’ll save them; and then try and remember why I wanted them, lol.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:32 am
blitz:
I’m reading along and all of a sudden I hit your comment… and laughed out loud. Thank you. I miss Yakov Smirnov.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:47 am
I’m glad to see that Randall has stepped it up to *self*-wankery in this here comment-section. Good for you, there is no shame in being arrogant about knowing a lot of things well. I’m also proud to announce that you’ve leveled up since you referred to yourself in the third person. Additionally, you receive bonus points for loving the Greeks (even if you prefer it between the legs, as they did, and not in the butt as true homos do).
To those of you that dislike Randall (and this seems to be when he disagrees with you)… well, I’m just going to deduce from the fact that he’s been right (2/2 so far) that you were wrong and thus just jealous of his enormous manhood, him being the gleaming beacon of knowledge that he is.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Davo, how come the first thing out of an atheists mouth is a Bible verse? I thought you didn’t give a shit about what Jesus said. For a guy who says there is no God you seem to be well informed of His doctrines and Bible verses, so why don’t you educate Christians on how they’re supposed to follow a fake God? Got any more Bible nuggets you can put into a sermon, uh lecture?
In the mean time, I’ll read up on some Nietzshe and tell you how you’re a poor atheist.
January 15th, 2009 at 8:13 am
Kazorek:
Sorry dude, but you strike me as the type who, when somebody at a party tells a funny joke and everyone else is chuckling, shouts out, “I don’t get it.”
You clearly didn’t read my lil’ treatise carefully, or you simply didn’t linger on my brilliant prose long enough to soak up the meaning–which was rather clear, I think.
“To a non-believer your argument is quite illogical.”
Was this addressed directly to me? You cited me (and others) so I assume so. Well to begin with, let’s correct your misapprehension that I was making “an argument.” No no, Kazorek–there is no “argument” here–everything I said, both regarding slavery in my first post and the big JC in the second, are FACT. I was correcting the rhetoric of others with some needed factual information. Of course, I threw in some of my opinion, as well–I’m wont do that, because I love me and hence love my own opinions. But overall the point was that people were coughing up mistaken ideas about slavery AND Jesus, and that was that.
“The idea that the bible is just being.. politically correct, I guess you could say.. is not an excuse at all;”
This is where you clearly failed, utterly, to grasp what I was saying. I was not making some half-assed argument that the Bible was attempting some form of “political correctness”; quite the contrary, in fact. The Old Testament in particular is very much a document of its times–cruelty, horror, bloodshed and nastiness reign supreme in it. Moreover, Jehovah is not a touchy-feely make-nice god in the OT. The books of the OT are rife with harshness and tough lessons.
But again–this, along with the points I was making about the nature of Jesus’ message and actions, is in keeping with the larger eastern idea of a vast tapestry that stands behind the smaller, limited veil that is the world we view around us. This is not “excuse making” by any stretch of the imagination—as is made clear in all these old texts–both the Bible, the Upanishads, the Dhammapada, Lao-Tse’s works, etc. etc., you can either find acceptance and cohabitation with the nastiness AND the beauty and sublimity of the universe and existence as they are, or you can join in the fray and fight the good fight. Either way, you’re still part of the whole. Nowhere does it say, “just allow evil to happen.” Acceptance is not the same thing, by any means, as withdrawal.
“what I mean is some suggested he “couldn’t” denounce it because it was too drastically different from societal standards.”
Which is a point I would not have agreed with, and I think I also made that clear in my earlier statements. Rather, I view the mission and message of Jesus as being removed from these matters in a sense–in other words, Jesus’ whole MISSION and INTENT *obviously* said that these things (be they war, slavery, or any injustice or mistreatment of our fellow humans) are wrong–that’s inherent in his message that we are all the same, etc. But by the same token, his mission was to introduce into us this new WAY of thought–and to have focused on a laundry list of issues that would satisfy YOU, as a modern individual with your sense of morality, two thousand years later–I mean, that would have clearly brought his mission and message down to the level of the street speechmaker and reformer. Not that that’s a bad vocation for someone to follow–but it’s a vocation for a different mission. Jesus’ mission was far more broad and earth-shaking.
Remember that the Buddhist admits first that all life is suffering, and goes from there (that the cause of suffering is desire, and so on). But the point is, this is absolutely true–between wars, crime, injustice, anger, hatred, exploitation, etc. etc. our existence on this globe always turns out to be 90% nastiness and 10% occasional glory and beauty. YOU wanted Jesus to go through a list of things we should change to make this a better, utopian world. But that ISN’T what Jesus was about. In wanting this, you’re missing entirely the spiritual message underlying him, and wanting instead a hyped-up version of Ralph Nader combined with the various social reformers of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Nice, but very temporal and material. That isn’t Jesus. Nor is it the Buddha. Both said things about helping the poor, etc. and how the mistreatment of each other is bad. But these things are only one tiny facet of their overall messages.
“The simple fact is human morality was not as advanced when the bible was written,”
That’s rubbish. Morality ITSELF has not substantially changed at all, in human history. We are, and always have been, a social species with love and concern and care for one another. The difference is that the CODIFICATION and INSTITUTIONALIZATION of certain precepts and ideas have changed over time, as have certain priorities. JESUS was one of those in history–the most significant one–who codified as IDEAS what we today call “morality.” But even before him, morality had been codified in certain forms and had existed as “unwritten law” for a very long time.
It is the propagation of IDEAS and concepts about morality that has changed—but not the sense of right and wrong itself. Helping the poor, therefore, wasn’t a big priority in ancient societies, (thought it WAS at times a consideration in certain socities) until Jesus came along in the west, and prior to him, certain ideas were introduced in the east. But the natural elements that reinforce this BEHAVIOR in mankind have always been present in us. Hence slavery has ALWAYS been wrong, in a moral sense. What ancient societies failed to do, however, was accept this idea and codify it into law. The first step in said acceptance was to accept that all human beings are brothers and sisters, and hence what I do to you, I do to myself. Jesus didn’t MAKE UP that idea, because others had it before him on a small scale. But he INTRODUCED it to the western mind as an idea, like waking people up to see the truth that had been all around them, all the time, but they had been too short or cloudy of vision to see.
“Someone said Jesus didn’t denounce drunk driving and a couple other things; those things, first of all aren’t in slavery’s league of immorality,”
What IS in slavery’s league of morality, Kazorek? War? Exploitation? Did you not read the things I said about slavery, before I spoke about Jesus. YOU, Kazorek–YOU—are living on the exploitation of others RIGHT NOW. As am I. As are ALMOST ALL OF US.
You’re on a high horse that doesn’t befit you, because you’re looking at existence through narrow glasses. Take ‘em off and look around you with open eyes. THAT is what Jesus AND the Buddha were saying.
That doesn’t mean slavery is then “excused” or okay–that’s not the point. In fact it would mean that we’d realize MANY things are NOT okay or to be excused–INCLUDING slavery and countless other injustices–and maybe we could start living LIKE Jesus and the Buddha, instead of pretending that we can’t.
“secondly – they weren’t right there all around him his whole life. Slavery was a regular fact of life and Jesus probably saw and interacted with slaves daily yet he never said, “imprisoning a man who has done no wrong is sinful.””
And this is where, again, you ENTIRELY MISSED the point I was making about Jesus. In fact it seems to me you merely ignored it because it isn’t convenient for you. You want to paint it as “excusing” Jesus. It’s nothing of the kind.
WHAT IS the message of Jesus as you see it, then, Kazorek? What was he saying, as you see it? Why did he speak up? What do you think he was talking about?
Seems to me you just haven’t thought long or hard enough about this. Your first impulse is to want Jesus as a speechmaking reformer. Just as the Hebrews at the time wanted him to be the Roman-ass-kicking messiah.
You know, Kazorek, the Buddha said to his followers, “for heaven’s sake, don’t worship ME, that’s the worst thing you could–I am not a god and do not make ME yet another object of your desires.” Do you understand this message and intent of his? Do you understand that Jesus would, in essence, say the same thing? Christians think he WAS saying he was the son of god, but I think it’s obvious that rather he was saying that we can ALL be him, just as the Buddha said we could ALL find buddha consciousness. But by the same, only a reverse error–you want Jesus to have filled YOUR idea of a moralizing preacher or reformer. That’s not how it works. You think you would have been happier if Jesus had written out a whole book of do’s and don’ts for mankind–well the point of Jesus AND the Buddha, Kazorek, is that the both essentially said, “look–you people KNOW what’s right and wrong—you don’t need us to tell you what’s what. What you NEED, however, is to wake up and LIVE by what’s right and wrong–to accept it and FOLLOW it.”
You, Kazorek, want yet another great figure to have laid out the whole thing for you in black and white. This is wrong, that’s wrong, this is bad, that’s bad… well how many times in history do you need this put on paper? How about simply practicing it and waking up to it? THAT is what we need. Not Jesus the commandment maker. We already HAD the ten commandments, and in other cultures other ideas and notions of right and wrong. How many times over did we need the same set of rules and ideas for things that were already WITHIN our being?
January 15th, 2009 at 8:18 am
It’s Nietzsche, there, cheech (unless you’re referencing his proto-feminist alter-ego). Besides, Nietzsche was an awful atheist (it ties in to him being an awful philosopher), he was also an awful philosopher (by his own admission, true philosophy was never supposed to be accessible by the common, meak-minded, person; now he’s taught in most Phil 101 courses. Epic fail.)
It’s like he was the most epic chef ever, made the most epic cake ever (but it was composed of tastes never experienced before so everyone who tasted it interpreted it differently) and put a huge sign on it saying “IDIOTS FUCK OFF” but then somehow all the idiots flocked to it anyway and proceeded to puke all over the cake for the next half-century (thank you Nietzsche’s sister and her NAZI buddies). That made no one want to eat the cake, until finally some crazy Europeans got hungry and went at it anyway, and, much to the world’s surprise, it was fucking awesome. Being the communist academic hippies that they were, they let everyone have a piece and now Nietzsche’s glorious mustache graces the walls of millions of teenagers’ bedrooms worldwide.
No, poor Zarathustra, that’s not a dwarf pouring lead into your ear, it’s the common university student pissing on your grave.
January 15th, 2009 at 8:27 am
Sorry about the missing ‘c’ mouse. And it’s MISTER cheech to you.
‘Spose I should have shot for something a little easier to spell and more atheistic like S-C-H-O-P-E-N-H-A-U-E-R
January 15th, 2009 at 8:27 am
BooRadley:
(I loved the Boo Radley’s back in the day, btw… another lost late 80s/90s band…)
Thanks much… but trust me, I’m every bit as funny as bucslim, and actually I’m quite confident that I’m far funnier—as I am, to him, what a New Yorker cartoon is to a Reader’s Digest joke.
bucslim, however, makes it a point to use this forum primarily as a testing ground for his stand-up routine (as well as to grind out some of the bitterness of his life) whilst I use it primarily to educate and inform the masses.
We both perform a public service; mine is merely more sublime.
January 15th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Yun:
“I normally find you arrogant, insufferable, and just this side of a troll…”
Gee, THANKS, Yun. So nice to have all this love on my side.
January 15th, 2009 at 8:32 am
It’s, okay I forgive you (I think he would, too); I just wanted an excuse to relate my favorite philosopher to cake.
-MISTER Mouse
January 15th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Randall, how many times do I have to spank you before you understand? Boo was totally righteous when he said I was the funnier. You’re an after school special with Zach and Cody compared to my Carlinesque witticisms. I’m Michael Jordan, you’re that skinny kid in gym class with pee stained shorts that don’t fit with coke bottle glasses and a heat rash. I’m Curly, you’re Moe.
You’ve been bent over more times by me than a Poison groupie.
Go put your clown shoes back on. Hugs and Kisses Sweetheart!
January 15th, 2009 at 9:44 am
“136. GTT – January 15th, 2009 at 7:26 am
Ah well… I guess ignorance (and prejudice) is bliss…”
Ahem, I quote:
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” – Leviticus 25:44-46
You were saying something about ‘ignorance’, I believe?
January 15th, 2009 at 9:47 am
And shall we forget, there are more than 50,000,000,000 nonhuman slaves right now in factory farms around the world.
Speciesism is no different than racism.
January 15th, 2009 at 9:52 am
bucslim:”In the mean time, I’ll read up on some Nietzshe and tell you how you’re a poor atheist.”
Nietzsche isn’t the Lord of atheists. You’re complaining that he’s pointing out verses from the Bible while talking to Christians, as if being a Christian gives you some sort of encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible. Do you honestly believe that it isn’t possible for someone to read the Bible and come away with a criticism of it? Having a go at him for quoting the Bible in his comment is like criticising a man for reading Sylvia Plath. It’s stupid and it’s intolerant to whine about an atheist quoting the Bible.
January 15th, 2009 at 9:58 am
More on the child sex trade as God apparently intended:
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.” – Exodus 21:7-11
January 15th, 2009 at 10:10 am
#149, Agreed as long as we don’t forget the billions of fruits and vegetables that we yank out of the ground just to fulfill our selfish need to eat!!!
P.S Sarcasm fully intended.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:14 am
#149, way to stand up for the cows. It was very moooving.
BADOOM-TSCHH
January 15th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Mikey, I’ll only being as stupid and intolerant as Davo was being. I’m sorry that Nietzsche doesn’t fit the whole ‘Lord of the Atheists’ tag, but when someone suggest that God is dead, they aren’t exactly worshipping him. He also said “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.” so I’m gonna go ahead put him in the Under Lord seat of atheists. Next time I’ll pick someone like Christopher Hitchens. Besides, the whole point of what I’m saying is why should an atheist give a shit of how I’m interpreting a fake text and following a fake God? They should stick to what they’re good at, being all smug in their own enlightenment.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:34 am
I´m still not seeing the CHILD sex slave. Is this because he says “daughter”? I see… So once a woman reaches maturity (whatever age that may be) she is no longer considered anyone´s daughter?
An in your first quote, where the heck does he mention sex?
Your quotes are just repeats of what was said before about slavery. You cannot pick bits and pieces to fit whatever it is you want to say.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:38 am
I don’t think Davo was being particularly stupid, actually. He had a point, the Bible does say “it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a ric man to enter the kingdom of Heaven”. My understanding was that he was saying that a Christian should be open to the notion of surrendering their possessions. I can understand you calling him intolerant, as he also seemed to say that all Christians are hypocrites.
I don’t want to get into a debate about Nietschze, but when he said God is dead he didn’t mean it literally and he certainly wasn’t celebrating the fact. He was claiming that religion no longer could claim the dominion over morality that it traditionally had.
There are no Lords or Under-Lords in atheism, it isn’t a doctrine or a religion and it cannot be taught… I understand you were speaking metaphorically but I feel I should point that out anyway.
“Besides, the whole point of what I’m saying is why should an atheist give a shit of how I’m interpreting a fake text and following a fake God?”
We’re chasing our tails here. In his comment he was complaining about the Christians apparently disapproving of atheism whilst in practice being hypocritical in their own behaviour. I think you both just want the other to keep their beliefs well away, so what is the root of the problem here?
“They should stick to what they’re good at, being all smug in their own enlightenment.”
Please don’t stereotype or patronise atheists. It’s intolerant.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:41 am
“I´m still not seeing the CHILD sex slave. Is this because he says “daughter”? I see… So once a woman reaches maturity (whatever age that may be) she is no longer considered anyone´s daughter?”
GTT, don’t be coy. Do you see any age boundaries in that quote? I sure don’t. Marriage while a minor was commonplace in ancient times, so it follows that one could sell a child into sex slavery in the same vein. Even if the quote I provided doesn’t include children, what then? Is God not still condoning sex slavery? That’s not a big improvement.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am
“Your quotes are just repeats of what was said before about slavery. You cannot pick bits and pieces to fit whatever it is you want to say.”
It’s not ambiguous in the sligtest. It isn’t really open for interpretation. It’s the rules for selling your child as a sex slave, not a parable. You’re complaining about me picking and choosing bits and pieces, like as in evidence to support my arguement? How is that fair? You clearly weren’t happy when I simply said “the Bible condones the child sex trade” so how can I possibly get my point across?
January 15th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Mikey, I got no beef with ya pal. I’m just saying and atheist telling a Christian how to live is like a fat guy telling Usain Bolt how to run.
But I’ll let it go.
January 15th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Fairplay then.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
# 159. Bucslim, have you checked out Usain Bolt’ coach?
http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20080603/sports/sports9.html
I believe that you agree that all atheist should be giving theology classes.
Irony: 1
Bucslim: 0
January 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Ulmflb – Haha nice one fella
January 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Ulmflb – That’s totally awesome! I started laughing my ass off in the office!
Now I’m sitting in a pile of my own butterscotch pudding.
I was thinking “I hope that dude doesn’t actually have a fat coach.” when I was writing my post.
OK, I’m an idiot.
January 15th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Mikey:
I dont necessarily see it as a sex slave. He´s talking about slaves, yes, but he then talks about MARRIAGE how if that were to happen the girl could no longer be treated as a slave. Now, if you go on to say that the girl didnt have a choice in the matter then I would have to say that most women didnt have a say in who they married whether or not they were slaves (pre-arranged marriages).
And the part about picking abd chosing bits was because I thought you wanted to somehow combine those two quotes into some new argument (as in, one mentions kids and the other mentions sex ergo… child sex slaves!) I apologize if that was not your intent.
January 15th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Excellent List!
January 15th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Randall:
I wasn’t talking specifically to you, you just seem to be the ring leader and I’ve had short discussions with you in the past. And I don’t want it laid out. I feel entitled to no moral guidance from anyone else. Jesus, Buddha, whoever. What exactly does Buddha have to do with anything anyways? You keep Buddha-izing Jesus, its not a good comparison (unless you believe god is “the truth”). Buddhism has very little in common with christianity. I’m not supernatural in my belief at all, but I do think Buddha has a lot to offer as far as philosophy goes. Jesus on the other hand, hasn’t ever done much for me (even growing up catholic). He’s perfect. A life of virtue and righteousness- perfect… blah blah, what would jesus do bracelet bullshit; its superman. In reality he has much more in common with Muhammad (superman to the muslim world – arch enemy and evil to most of you) in the way he “messiah’ed.” You may think I’m that guy that tells any unfunny joke, but what I really am is the atheist in a thread full of christians – it can have the same effect. My post was a little vague and scatter-shot, and yes you tightened up a couple of ambiguities that you probably understood despite their “vagueness,” but it wasn’t missing any point. I don’t think Jesus was the man you describe, I don’t think Christianity is based on those principles. They are based on servitude to God, and thats what Jesus preached. It wasn’t perfect. Thats all. There you go. Email me if you decide to convert/denounce.
January 15th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
that was a stupid post. its just frustrating to know you can’t hear me. from an objective viewpoint the bible has a lot of depth, a lot of junk, a lot of good, a lot of psychobabble, and overall its… interesting and inspired… and grand – but not great. mostly fairy tales. it will say whatever you want it to if you talk long enough, including the claim that somewhere it expresses slavery is wrong.
January 15th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
randall: while i didn’t really want to get into a full fledged biblical debate with you, i do have to take you aside with the following quote from 141…
“Christians think he WAS saying he was the son of god, but I think it’s obvious that rather he was saying that we can ALL be him, just as the Buddha said we could ALL find buddha consciousness.”
i don’t know if it was you or not but i am pretty sure that i have had this discussion with others before on LV. to state it plainly, Jesus WAS saying He was the son of God. John 10:30 “i and the Father are one”. the leaders of the day were under no confusion about what he was saying. in john 5:18 “this was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabath but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”.
if you want to say that he couldn’t be God that is one thing, however Jesus was very clear on the issue. this is one of the main theological distinctives of CHRISTianity. this is a foundational issue.
January 15th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
“I dont necessarily see it as a sex slave. He´s talking about slaves, yes, but he then talks about MARRIAGE how if that were to happen the girl could no longer be treated as a slave. Now, if you go on to say that the girl didnt have a choice in the matter then I would have to say that most women didnt have a say in who they married whether or not they were slaves (pre-arranged marriages).”
If they weren’t being sold as sex slaves, then why were they only talking about daughters? Why not sons too?
Even if this passage isn’t condoning sex slavery, it is at least condoning slavery… which brings us back to “doh”.
January 15th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
“Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.”
- Number 31:14-18
January 15th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
The final sentence in that passage sounds a lot like child sex slavery to me.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
One thing you left off your list is the interesting tidbit that in the South during Slavery, that their were Black Slaveholders…indeed, I believe about 2000 of them ended up fighting for the South during the Civil War…
And you should have pointed out that the founder of the ‘religion of peace’ Muhammed, himself owned slaves and tragically islam has been happily dealing in and with slavery upto the present..
You will NEVER see a Wilberforce in Islam since slavery is built into its ideology, if not explicitly certainly implicity…..it doesn’t help that the founder himself owned slaves I guess…
January 15th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
In giving this a bit of thought there are some people who could be better off being a slave. Under an individual who takes care of his property. Three hots and a flop for a decent days labour. No stress. No decisions that they aren’t really qualified to make. I know a couple of people that would be very content in that situation.
A thought, how many african americans would want their ancestors not to be brought to the colonies and made slaves if they realized that they would have been born in africa as a result.
January 15th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
wtf, they erased my yakov smirnoff joke.
wonder why, oh well, here it is again:
IN SOVIET RUSSIA,
SLAVE OWNS YOU!!!!!!
January 16th, 2009 at 2:45 am
the last picture is beautifully taken..
January 16th, 2009 at 2:49 am
two list for yesterday?
January 16th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Kazorek:
I frankly despair of getting through to you, since you seem to be one of these people who is convinced they KNOW what they’re talking about, when in fact it’s painfully clear that they most desperately don’t.
“I don’t want it laid out.”
Well I beg to differ. I think you very much do. You just won’t recognize the fact. To you, Jesus inadequately spoke out against the evils of his day. Instead of me further haranguing you on this point, I recommend that you instead take some time and THINK seriously about it.
“What exactly does Buddha have to do with anything anyways? You keep Buddha-izing Jesus, its not a good comparison”
I’m quite frankly shocked that anybody could say this, but it’s obvious, then, that you haven’t studied the matter at all, let alone carefully.
I don’t wish to embarrass you, Kazorek, but in point of fact the parallels between the teachings of Jesus and the Buddha are extremely well known and documented. As figures their messages are in fact nearly identical, though presented in entirely different idioms. I stress, again, that this point is not unique to me nor am I by any means the first to make it or recognize it. It’s been talked about for at least a century, in fact, and probably much longer than that in eastern circles. I could recommend any number of books that illustrate the parallels and which would clearly indicate that this is no mere matter of interpretation. In fact there is a whole school of historical theory today, devoted to trying to uncover some evidence or indication that Jesus in fact may have formed his philosophy after exposure to Buddhist teachings in the east. Even the Catholic church readily admits that there are clear parallels between the teachings of the two figures, Christ and Buddha.
“Buddhism has very little in common with christianity.”
Actually, except for the prosyletizing nature of Christianity, the two are in fact very similar in general philosophy. The primary difference is that Christ is the central figure, as deified figure, in Christianity, while the Buddha is merely the teaching figure in Buddhism. The moralistic points of Christianity are in fact derived from earlier Hebrew tradition for the most part–but if you know anything about Buddhism (I sense that you do not) you know that Buddhism, in turn, also issues from an earlier tradition–namely the Hindu–and that there are moralistic points threaded through it from that tradition as well. The only other difference being that Buddhism does not stress a dichotomous morality, as Hinduism in large part did not either.
But the central message of Jesus has little to do with the moralistic, proselytizing aspects of Christianity. Christianity and Buddhism, therefore, do indeed differ on several points of outward practice and even inward philosophy. But at heart, leaving aside the outward aspects, they in fact parallel each other quite closely, and the parallels are even more obvious when one examines Christ and the Buddha together as figures, rather than focusing on the structure that followed in their wake—Christianity and Buddhism.
“I’m not supernatural in my belief at all, but I do think Buddha has a lot to offer as far as philosophy goes.”
I’d be interested to hear how this is so, since to me you don’t seem to have a great command of either, to make said judgement. I personally draw from both. They have their differences, much of which is nuance.
“Jesus on the other hand, hasn’t ever done much for me (even growing up catholic). He’s perfect. A life of virtue and righteousness- perfect… ”
Hmm. It’s interesting to hear that you admit you were Catholic. It seems that Catholicism either grabs people for good, or drives them directly away.
Part of what you’re saying is a problem of interpretation, I feel. The dominant paradigm in Christianity is as you say–Jesus as the deified figure. But this is, again, a very limited and flat view. You seem to be focusing on what was said OF Jesus rather than what was said BY him, to make just one point.
“In reality he has much more in common with Muhammad”
Well I’m afraid this absurd. Again, I get the strong sense here that you are speaking wildly about things which in fact your knowledge of is very limited.
“I don’t think Jesus was the man you describe,”
Well I very much beg to differ. But again this is the problem with Catholicism–it sometimes indoctrinates without encouraging independent thought. But the mind always seeks to be independent. Some people, then, delve deeper in their own religion to find the truth—other people find their independence by running away from what they see as ties that bind.
On the other hand, the problem with Protestantism is that it replaces the mysteries of ritual–as a means of finding a way at the truth–with zeal and over-arching earnestness.
I submit to you, Kazorek, that there’s a third way. Countless people have seen it. Not just me.
“I don’t think Christianity is based on those principles. They are based on servitude to God, and thats what Jesus preached.”
I hardly think so. You really have no back up for making this statement. The Christian religion in large part, perhaps does preach a kind of servitude to god, but Jesus himself didn’t.
I think, Kazorek, that you have the same kind of bitter bias against your own (former) background religion that I’ve seen in a LOT of Catholics. It’s sad. And I can’t blame you. I don’t see it as your fault. But if you go back and re-evaluate matters, you might see some of the veil being lifted.
Forget about Christianity; it is, as you say, very flawed. I’m just saying, if you go back and re-examine ONLY Jesus to begin with, you may see a lot there, of what I’ve been saying. Certainly others have.
And bear in mind–Jesus or the Buddha, I don’t prefer one to the other. To me they’re the same.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:20 am
I have a very detailed family history, which goes back to before the Revolutionary War; names, dates, marriages, children, everything…so one of the things I know is that I had a whole bunch of relatives fighting in the Civil War.
500 for the Confederacy.
250 for the Union.
While the family had started down from New England, they first settled in Virginia, but by 1850 were all living in one county in Tennessee.
Makes you wonder about family get-togethers like Thanksgiving and Christmas after the war.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
The Muhammad and Jesus thing was pretty dumb. They were very different. They we just both like “hey god told me to tell you…” but they were very different. For instance Muhammad was a man, Jesus was “perfect.” If you don’t believe he was you are indeed, NOT a Christian. He was completely and utterly sinless for he was god. Too idealized for my taste. And as for your question pertaining to Buddha, who doesn’t think Buddha has philosophic qualities to his writings? Or are you asking me what I like about him? Well I’m partial to existentialism and he appeals to that side of philosophy pretty heavily. I know Buddhism expanded out from Hindu, whatever that has to do with anything. And dare I say it Randall, but I think you’ve gotten sucked into a rant. I said some stupid things and admitted it, hope you had fun ripping them up anyways; but apparently Jesus didn’t get through to the writers of the bible effectively enough and the message comes across that slavery is okay. Maybe you should start your own religion based on Jesus quotes, but christianity (“the bible,” regardless of what christianity has become today) is not like Buddhism, and its sort of like the Qur’an. I challenge you to find an atheist or non-christian that thinks Jesus/Buddha comparisons are relevant to anything beyond arbitrary factoids and making Jesus look good.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
It seems like I ignored a lot of the things you said. Its because you said so much and most of it was just twisting my words around or taking them in with pretenses or maybe using false pretenses in you post. (sorry about the gap, had to snuggle with my girlfriend for a few minutes)
January 16th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Kazorek:
Honestly, I have no time to argue with someone who won’t even try to research very clear and well known matters regarding the subject he’s trying to talk about.
I mean sure, Kazorek—blame Jesus and/or the writers of the Bible because you can’t get the message clearly. Uh huh.
And as for Buddhism and Christianity not having parallels, I TOLD you–you’re simply ill-informed on this. There are MANY parallels, and as I told you, scholars have been talking about this for a very, very long time.
It’s one thing when someone is simply mistaken, as you are–it’s another when they just refuse to listen to reason and those who are (sorry about this) frankly better educated than they are, and instead want to continue with their childish beliefs for good or bad.
You challenge me on something Kazorek? What a laugh. Right off the bat I can tell you that DT Suzuki, one of the biggest names in Zen Buddhism, had a GREAT deal to say about the parallels and similarities between Jesus and the Buddha. That’s one name of MANY.
Yes of course Islam and Christianity have ties and affinities–they’re both religions from the same essential source. But I never said Islam and Christianity had no such affinities. YOU said, rather, that Jesus was more like Mohammed than Buddha–which you’ve already admitted was a silly thing to say. You’re simply compounding your embarrassment, then, by continuing to harp on this.
You clearly didn’t read my “rant” carefully–which is to your detriment. This seems to be a habit with you. That, or you have some sort of problem with comprehension.
And it’s laughable, Kazorek, that of all people YOU should try to tell me what is and is NOT “Christian.” You seem to have failed to get a decent grasp of the religion you were brought up in, yet alone others outside of your (limited) purview.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Is it existentialism or atheism that is childish?
January 16th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
god is an imaginary friend for grown ups.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Buddha preached that the only way to gain inner peace was to stop suffering (I think). I’m not sure but I also think he preached peace in a similar way to the way Jesus did. But then I suppose all religions promote peace. It’s whether its followers listen to it.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
I believe I talked about what is said in number 7 being true on a “Your View” and nobody believed me, and said that my conception of slavery in biblical times was wrong..
Yeah..
^_^
Deuteronomy 15:
16 But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.
Taking an awl and pushing it through the slaves earlobe into the door is the same as piercing their ear to the door, and was just tradition of the time. There is a biblical song sang in many churches called “Pierce My Ear Lord” referring to that process, with which the Christian is asking to be in eternal servitude in Heaven to God, at his house. It wasn’t violent, it wasn’t cruel, it was the culture.
And another thing, when referring to other cultures and societies, projecting YOUR culture, and YOUR societies norms is a very unfair way to go about saying what ancient cultures and societies did was wrong. I’m sure if those people, slaves or masters, where to project THEIR culture onto OURS in order to grade it on morality, we would be just as(or more) terrible, immoral, unjust, and cruel as we always depict God figures, and various leaders in the Bible to be. The finger points both ways buddy.
Think about how evil/politically incorrect we(America, Britain,ect..)appear to be according to completely different parts of the world. And before you come to the instant conclusion of, “They’re wrong, We’re right” who gave YOU the right to condemn whole nations of other people? That is why Christians keep their faith in God; Because in their eyes, who does the almighty of everything, or the alpha and the omega, have to answer to, especially when he knows the outcome of everything, and promises to save those who are loyal to them? Nobody, that’s who.
-Kase
January 16th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Randall:
I thought I was done but I realized I forgot to say something about your last post. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure DT Suzuki was the guy famous for translating a bunch of Buddhist texts and spreading Buddhism in the west. His interest in highlighting the parallels between Buddha and Jesus are pretty obvious.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Am I the only person disturbed by people commenting “Great list!!” ?
January 17th, 2009 at 2:48 am
Regarding number 8… there is actually no connection between the word ’slave’ and ‘Slav’, since the name of the Slavic people wasn’t given by the Byzanthees, but by the slavic word Slava (Glory) or, according to some – ‘Slovo’ (letter), which can be connected to their naming of the German peoples, with whom they came in contact ‘Nemci’ (mute people, since they didn’t understand them), a name they still hold today.
January 17th, 2009 at 10:50 am
“Slaves in Eastern cultures such as Assyria, Babylon, and Persia could be even worse off.”
Not in Persia, in the Cyrus Cylinder (look it up) Persia ended slavery and gave slaves reperations…in 500 BC!
January 17th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Sad list.
I dont really know what else to say, I just hate to see and come to truly realize that things like this is true (not that I thought it wasnt…)
January 17th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Usually the facts have nothing to do with the truth.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Metalwrath: Thanks for bringing up the Arab/Muslim slavery….which not only took black Africans….but Europeans as well. In fact Arab/Muslims went as far as Iceland to obtain slaves.
And slavery still goes on in the Muslim world…as well as other parts of the world…and kudos to Jfrater for making current slavery the #1 on this list….the stuff still goes on today
January 18th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
lol..So a black guy started all this? lol, so ironic lol…hey remind me to tell that to those black people that bully my mom everytime because she is white …I bet they have no idea of this …I always wondered why do they always try to “save” themselves by saying “Is it because I’m black?” geez…who cares if you are black or purple, pink, red, orange, blue or yellow, if you killed someone or robbed someone you are guilty like it or not! It’s clear they hold a grudge against white people because they were taken as slaves but come on, what about the people in America? Aztecs, and other cultures? Plus black poeple were prefered because they were stronger and could resist a lot of things, also there were a lot of them, a whole continent in fact!… not because they were “black” ….I truly don’t care about colors, I care about a well mannered, honest and educated person with moral values…My father was always very poor, sometimes they couldn’t even eat but he never turned out a criminal, neither his brothers and sisters and they all graduated from university …and his background is black. Holding a grudge will never help anyone.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
194/samsaragx The discussion was great until you chimed in with an excuse to get a race discussion started. There are plenty of other boards to go to. List Universe is too awesome to stoop to that.
January 19th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Slavery needs two actors: an owner and one who tolerates. Red Indians did not tolerate it, they chose death rather.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:01 pm
I wonder if anyone has additional sources for #10 – a black man owning a black slave – I’d like to research this more.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:25 pm
As far as I know, the only successful slave revolt in history took place in Haiti, lead by a guy named Toussaint.
January 30th, 2009 at 9:52 am
America is the land of the free if your rich or comfortably well off. Slightly arrogant of you USers(users) to think your country is the only one out of 250odd countries that enjoys freedom. The Dublin thing is only slightly true, the sex slaves trafficked in to there go on to the UK and a lot of other countries. Its just a staging area. Every country is guilty.
Its sad but true that slavery is a part of human nature. We are the only true beasts on this planet. We use the word animals, but that really is an insult to the poor innocent animals. You see those videos of dogs raising tiger cubs or cats feeding piglets. We cant even treat each other right and we are the same species.
Its interesting to note that with all the guilt African-Americans heap on Caucasian-Americans, slavery in America was started by an African-American. Also the Black Africans sold their own people to the slave traders in the first place. An inconvenient truth that is so often brushed over. Makes one think.
February 2nd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
100% of slave traders were yankee shipowners from the north. 100% of the Africans they bought slaves from were black themselves. This is not to excuse the rich southern plantation owners who worked the slaves to death in the fields.I’m just saying there’s enough blame to go all around.
March 10th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Referring to #7…
The Bible does deal with what’s commonly known as the “slave laws” of the Old Testament. You can find them in Exodus 21. Although the Bible uses the term “servitude”, the Lord gave those laws to eliminate slavery-not keep His people in bondage. If you read the text you will see that when a man was taken in as a servant he was to be treated well and the owner of the house was to pay him for his work. Although most people would Exodus 21 to be referring to slavery, the so-called “slave” was really an employee. There are a few differences, however, one being that the servant had to work for a certain amount of years or pay off his debt to his employer. The employer paid the “servant” for the years in which he worked and this was put in place so that at the end of their contract, when the servant was set free, he would not go out with nothing. By the time he was set free, he had his own inheritance-given him by his master.
A good example of a servant paying his debt to his master would be in Genesis, which is the story of Jacob and Laban. Jacob made a contract with Laban to work for him for 21 years (14 in order to gain his two wives, Leah and Rachel, and the last 7 years was for his own savings-in order to provide for his family). Jacob worked for 20 of those years and bought out the last year of his contract.
“And Laban said unto Jacob, Because thou art my brother, shouldest thou therefore serve me for nought? tell me, what shall thy wages be?” Genesis 29:15
March 29th, 2009 at 10:35 am
I think this list helps us remember that the word slavery doesn’t just refer to an outdated, long abolished institution done to black people. But to white, black and everything in between, often done by their own race as well as other races. Children are used as sex slaves and we look away because we don’t want to see, we don’t want to know. The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
March 30th, 2009 at 10:57 am
I didn’t real every post on this list because there’s 200… but how do you figure that “three quarters are female and over half are children?” That amounts to over 125% of slaves.
I guess I didn’t know slaves were that wierd.
March 30th, 2009 at 11:55 am
rach, you come up with that answer because you have no ability to think logically.
April 21st, 2009 at 5:59 pm
slavery is the most sadest thing ever the mos sadest is that slavery is still going on today in the world
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:22 pm
I really think slavery is wrong and it was shocking to read that there are currently more slaves than there eva was in history
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:27 pm
prity kewl lisssst
July 24th, 2009 at 5:37 am
Obamas Bible&Slavery!!!
Evil Bible.com
Contents:
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Slavery in the Bible
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Jesus is a False Messiah
Hitler was a Christian
Contradictions of the Gospel
Sexism in the Torah
God’s Not Pro-Life
Ten Commandments
Why I am Not a Christian
What Would Jesus Do?
Is the Bible Fit for Worship
Slavery in the Bible
Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.
Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word “servant”, “bondservant”, or “manservant” instead of “slave” to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn’t mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
August 2nd, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Wait, so WHITE MAN STILL gets blamed to this day, and treated as responsible for what our ANCESTORS did, and it turns out that it was actually a BLACK MAN who was responsible?
>.< Irony rears its ironically beautiful head once again
August 11th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
cool
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:16 am
bullshit!!!!!
September 6th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
black/brown muslims captured and traded millions of white slaves in algeria for thousands of years and it got so bad in the 1800’s that america attacked them and sacked the three cities and rescued hundreds of slaves. the estimated total of slaves in unknown but in the millions. you never hear about black-white slavery do you
September 17th, 2009 at 10:16 am
My pa has a slave. I keep trying to free him, but my brothers keep telling my pa.
September 21st, 2009 at 9:13 am
Thank you for Very interesting Info. Very inspiring to write a paper or something!!
September 25th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Yeah. Slavery gets me soooo angry. I’m from the west indies so I have my moments of bitterness. My biggest issue with slavery is in its earth quake like qualities. The after shock is still felt today because the psychological damage done to the black race in the west is still visible even today. That is the saddest part to me. Enslavement of africans began because a dominican friar was so dismayed that the indians (caribs and arawaks) were being used as slaves by the spanish. They were unused to that hardship and were dying in immense numbers. He suggested the africans as they were stronger. The organised violence meted out by western cultures is never forgotten by the persons who suffered from it. America is often blamed. But they are by no means the only culprits. Spain was on the scene as well as portugal. In their race to conquer the world they destroyed wonderful tribes.
September 29th, 2009 at 11:26 am
hey ganja god do you reall want to be a slave??!!!! but yeah awsome list and thank for the awsome facts nice comment jo. okay …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. bye
October 7th, 2009 at 6:15 am
i need more information about african slaves and the interpretation…..by the way…great history…
October 11th, 2009 at 10:25 am
The only issue in this article I would like to clarify is your section on Charles Lynch. Charles Lynch is NOT the person responsible for the term “lynching” regarding the hanging of African Americans. Charles Lynch was very active in the politics during and after the Revolutionary War. He was active in suppressing the Tory party and organized Virginia citizens to uphold the “patriot cause” which arrested Tories, have them hearings,and if necessary punished them by fines, imprisonment, or flogging, but in no case was the death penalty inflicted. The term “Lynch Law” which is sometimes known by some as lynching, or hanging, is not traceable to Colonel Lych. He did not countenance mob methods. I know this due to the fact that I work at Charles Lynch’s homesite, Avoca Museum, and have done vast amounts of research on this topic. And, FYI, the Tories wanted to capture lead mines in Southwest VA, capture weapons, free British soldiers held in Charlottesville, VA, and join Coornwallis.
Thank you.
October 12th, 2009 at 11:33 am
The political leanings of the moderator of the site are well known (whether he admits it or not). Trying to suggest, as is attempted in point 5, that somehow slavery as practiced by the africans was somehow more morally superior to the “white” europeans is disingenuous. For years it has been discussed in schools that “black” Africans participated in the slave trade with “white” europeans. Therefore, whether their version of slavery was “morally superior” or not, they are just as guilty, and just as responsible as any group, society, or culture. A fascinating point is that while “white” europeans have given up slavery, it is still practiced in Africa, and as point #1 demonstrates it is not practiced with any morality. I guess the author and his supporters would just blame “whites” for influencing this. But I think we really know who is responsible. Point #10 (which I think is just a plant so the author can claim fairness if challenged) is clear that “africans” are just as guilty as anyone else is for slavery. We don’t need a lecture from Listverse to tell us that. Finally, American slavery was just a blip on the radar screen of slavery. There is more and worse slavery in other parts of the world both now and in the past. The Nazis, Japanese, Soviets, all used slave labor. So American slavery should be relegated to the status it deserves, as a minor event in the realm of human history. Not elevated just because it ocurred in a society that is NOW wealthy (but certainly was not then, and America was not the center of the universe then as France and Great Britian etc were).
October 23rd, 2009 at 7:28 am
Following on from what Michelle stated above about how the name came about for Lynching.
I’m from Galway Ireland and there is a building called Lynch’s castle and Lynch’s wall named after the mayor of Galway, James Lynch.
He hanged his son from the window of his home in 1493, no judge in the country would sentence his son to death so Lynch took it upon himself to inflict the punishment. Lynch’s son had murdered a Spainish man in the care of the family. It’s my understanding that is where the term ‘lynching’ came form.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:51 am
Slavery as a role has changed, though.
In ye olden times when slavery wasn’t basically universally condemned, slaves were most often used to either work hard labor, or as personal servants.
Nowadays, sexual slavery accounts for most of it, at least in North America, Europe, northern Asia, and Australia.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
scary, there being hung by a rope