Imagine if the Nazis had bombed New York City the same way they bombed London. Imagine if they had a fleet of aircraft carriers rivaling, at least, Japan’s fleet. Imagine if they fielded a jet fighter in large numbers well before D-Day. Imagine that they had guided missiles, an assault rifle like the AK-47 and (gulp) “the bomb.”
Well, you don’t have to imagine, because Nazi Germany developed many weapons systems and programs that could — COULD — have been game changers had they been completed, completed sooner, or fielded in large numbers. These 10 weapons listed below show just how close-run WWII was. Fortunately, the weapons were never fully developed, built in small numbers or deployed too late to seriously affect the course of the war. Nazi politics, strategic materials shortages, the Allied bombing campaign, production problems and even boneheaded interference from Hitler himself fortunately relegated these systems to mere idle speculation, instead of the tools that won the war for the Nazis. But it boggles the mind to imagine what might have happened if Hitler didn’t go to war in 1939, but waited several more years.
It’s a matter of minor debate concerning how far along the Germans were in developing an atomic bomb before Allied bombers wiped out the efforts for good. But make no mistake, they were trying to build one. Could you imagine Hitler having atomic bombs? America, of course, developed the atomic bomb first—to be used initially against Germany. This is number 10 rather than number one because everything else on this list actually existed, either as prototypes or as operational weapons.
The “Dragon” helicopter was invented some time before the war, but the Germans were the first ones to actually put a whirlybird into production. The Fa-223 was the latest in Focke’s helicopter designs and was a good aircraft. And, for once, interference from Nazi bigwigs actually only played a minor part in production and deployment. Twenty examples were built by the winter of 1942-43 when Allied bombers plastered the only factory making them. Attempts to resume production failed, and resources were directed to more critical systems. But imagine if the Nazis had succeeded in deploying such an aircraft in large numbers before the war turned against them. The clip is from Military Channel’s Top Ten Helicopters. Fascinating fact: When German paratroopers rescued Mussolini in 1943, they were supposed to go in using a Fa 223. But the helicopter developed engine trouble, and the troopers used gliders instead.
In March 1939, Luftwaffe pilot Hans Dieterle achieved an absolute average speed record of 463.9 mph, the last such speed record set before the war. His aircraft was the Heinkel He-100V8, a fighter prototype. Although possessing excellent flight characteristics (speed, dive, maneuverability, range, etc.) the He-100 never entered production. Nazi officials decided to stick with the Messerschmitt BF-109 as its primary fighter and ordered Heinkel to focus on making bombers. Aviation enthusiasts and historians disagree as to why the He-100 died: Was it politics, poor decisions by Heinkel, production problems or something else? The He-100 prototypes were retired or sold to other nations, especially Japan, whose decent mid-war Kawasaki Ki-61 fighter—the only non-radial fighter Japan fielded—was based on the He-100. Why could this have been a game-changer? Because had the Nazis and Heinkel gone ahead with production of this fighter, which was supposedly superior to even the hot Focke Wulf FW-190 introduced later in the war, events such as the Battle of Britain could have turned out much differently. The He-100, for example, had much greater range than the 109 and was far superior to the Me-110, and could have easily fended off British fighters trying to get at German bombers. Note: The clip appears to be a Japanese film of Dieterle’s record flight.
The U-boats (submarines) used in World War II were superior in every way to their WWI counterparts, and the Type XXI vessel outclassed every other submarine of every navy. The Type XXI, dubbed the Elektoboote, was the first operational submarine designed to run totally submerged for extended periods—meaning, far longer than the submerged operational viability of the Type VIIC, the most numerous U-boat type. The Elektroboote could stalk Allied ships with far more impunity than earlier models thanks to its greatly improved batteries and “stealth” modifications that made it difficult to detect by Allied sonar. The type’s weapons systems were superior, including hydraulically-loaded torpedoes and torpedoes aimed by sonar, which eliminated the need to raise the U-boat to periscope depth for attack. Between 1943 and 1945, German shipyards built 118 Type XXI boats. But only four were combat-ready by the time the Germans surrendered, and only one ever went on patrol. Boneheaded production decisions, including those by Albert Speer, and Allied bombing prevented this deadly boat from ever becoming a menace.
After its successful debut in the Spanish Civil War, the Luftwaffe set on a strategy of using only tactical bombers (light, medium and dive bombers), eschewing the four-engine heavy bombers being developed in England and America. This concentration on highly vulnerable and lightly armed bombers meant that the Luftwaffe never had a true strategic heavy bomber. Although in possession of some four- and six-engine planes at war’s start, none was truly suitable for strategic bombing. Luftwaffe attempts to finally build long-range city-killers were either disasters or abandoned. The Heinkel He-177, the only Luftwaffe strategic bomber to enter into production, was a disastrous failure. It was a flawed four-engine design featuring two engines mounted in tandem on each wing, which frequently cased fires. Hitler also demanded that massive plane be capable of dive-bombing, which was totally wacky, and contributed to its serious problems. Along the same lines was the “New York bomber” program, which featured two aircraft, the Junkers Ju-290 and the Messerschmitt Me-264, with designs to bomb New York City. But the program never went beyond the prototype stage. The few models of the decent Ju-290 were used not as bombers but long-range couriers between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan late in the war. Meanwhile, one complete Me-264, which curiously looked like the American B-29 Super Fortress, was completed and another two were under construction when the “New York bomber” program was abandoned permanently. The clip, which doesn’t have sound, is of a J-290.
This superb, purpose-built, 2-engine night fighter was the best Axis night fighter of the war, and one of the finest piston aircraft made prior to the jet age. Just one He-219 downed 25 Allied bombers in a matter of *days* during the prototype period; the plane was that good. While possessing excellent flight characteristics, formidable weaponry and radar guidance, the plane was somewhat complex to build. Heinkel only built a few hundred, partially because they were ordered to concentrate on bombers. Instead, the Luftwaffe relied on modifying existing aircraft, namely Me-110s and Junkers Ju-88s. In far larger numbers, the He-219 could have brought nighttime RAF bombing operations to a close. The clip, which doesn’t have sound, appears to be of a captured He-219 with USA markings.
The Kriegsmarine (German navy) never had an aircraft carrier during WWII, but it came close. In 1935, Hitler deemed that the Kriegsmarine would build aircraft carriers. At this point in naval history, the battleship was still the primary naval vessel, and aircraft carriers something of a novelty; therefore, naval treaties concentrated on limiting battleship tonnage. In 1937, shipbuilders laid the keel for the 33,500-tonne Graf Zeppelin and launched her the next year. However, she was never completed. Herman Goering thought that the carrier would intrude on the duties of his Luftwaffe, and Admiral Karl Doenitz championed U-Boats over surface vessels. Such territorial fights and the increasing shortage of war materials led to her abandonment at 80% completion. The Soviets captured the Graf Zeppelin in 1945, but it wasn’t learned until 2006 that the Soviets used her for target practice and sank her in 1947.
Germany employed many radio-controlled weapons during the latter half of the war, including the V-1 Buzz bomb, a slow, primitive cruise missile that was easy to shoot down. Radio-controlled air-to-surface missiles, such as the Henschel Hs 293 guided bomb, were a hassle for Allied shipping until techs found ways to jam the signals. Of all the German radio-controlled weapons, the V-2 ballistic missile was the most successful. However, the Nazis used the V-2 primarily to terrorize London, Antwerp and elsewhere during the last full year of the war. Much more powerful and faster than the V-1 “buzz bomb,” the Hs-293 and the “Mistel” (an old bomber packed with explosives literally flown by remote to a target), the V-2 was quite difficult to shoot down and packed a powerful explosive punch. One wonders what could have happened if the Germans had used such weapons exclusively against Allied troops instead of civilians. Considering that by summer 1944 the Allies had near total air domination in the west and the Soviets were closing hard from the east, such a weapon could have proven costly to the Allies—and cheaper than sending in fighters and bombers. With a mobile launch platform and a high-speed flight, the V-2 could — COULD — have gone a long way to negating Allied air power. But almost all of the 10,000 V-2s launched directly targeted civilians.
Germany fielded many powerful weapons systems for the Wehrmacht, including the fearsome Tiger and Panther tanks and the 88-mm cannon. (My wife’s late grandpa had many stories about being fired on by those %#$@! 88s.) The Wehrmacht’s small arms inventory was good, though a little unwieldy. The basic German soldier went to war equipped with the Karabiner Kar98, an old but powerful and reliable bolt-action rifle with a 5-shot cartridge. (The Kar98 is still in use!) Elite German troops, such as the paratroopers, as well as the SS and Gestapo, were often equipped with the MP-40 or 41 machine pistol / submachine gun. German armories, however, created a very powerful and versatile submachine gun *almost* akin to the famed postwar Soviet AK-47. In trained hands, the StG-44 could lay down a devastating hail of 7.92mm bullets (the same as used by the Kar98), and provided the power of the Kar98 and up-close versatility of the MP-40. During the last year-and-a-half of the war, they proved their effectiveness, so much so that when Hitler asked his generals in July 1944 what they needed, one of them exclaimed, “More of these rifles!” However, the StG-44 came too late in the war to have any appreciable effect. East German police units used them as late as the early 1960s. The clip is from Military channel’s Top Ten Combat Rifles.
The Me-262 was the world’s first operational jet fighter. Despite frequent engine problems, the Me-262 was a fast and deadly aircraft, and outpaced almost all Allied fighters (only the P-51D Mustang could match it.) It could have gone operational in the fall of 1943, when the war was still pretty much in the balance. At that time, the Luftwaffe still had not lost most of its veteran pilots and Allied escort fighters could not penetrate too far into the Reich. The Me-262 could have swept Allied bombers and fighters from the sky, giving Germany critical air dominance once more. Fortunately for the world, Hitler himself demanded that the new fighter aircraft be modified for dive-bombing use — a purpose for which it was not designed. This meddling delayed construction and deployment for more than a year. By the time the Me-262 took to the skies operationally in late 1944, it was far too late. The clip shows a restored Me-262 at a 2006 air show in Berlin.
I think “Us” is referring to the allies as this author is probably American. I for one am very happy that the Allies won the war
This list is very accurate although I may have put the V2 rocket at #1–If Germany had held on another year or so,there’s no telling what this weapon would have evolved into under Werner Von Braun.I do know that if he had not been brought to the United States,we would not have put a man on the moon by 1969.
Cool list…a little scary!
122: smithstar15 – I agree that the V2 could have swung the odds, but they had the technology to use those devices way before the end of the war. Perhaps Hitlers plan was to bombard cities until the allies somehow gave up to save their citizens. But just as the list goes on to say, bombing citizens never seems to make much difference to military operations; as the bombing may only serve to strengthen the resolve of their commanders to fight harder. It baffles me why – given that these v2 weapons could be set on any target – that Hitler didn’t use them to knock out military strongholds instead of taking days to plan tank and infantry attacks. Still, they do say the pressure got to him in the end…
good list. but one thing, none technology, could really have cost us the war. If hitler hadn’t been too land hungry and went after russia he probably would’ve won. although none of these items could have hurt his odds either.
103: GVT: “I think Hitler attacking Stalin lost him the war personally.” I agree. Hitler banked on a quick capture of the empire before the vast Russian army (which was spread out accross the country) managed to get together and form an attack. Hitler knew that once this happened, there was no way to stop them, and feared Stalin was going to mount such an attack inevitably given enough time (Stalin had been sending messages to the allies, so trying to ‘turn’ him was out of the question). Hitler also saw it as his best chance to strike and capture the sleeping Russia and gain a solid Eastern position. Unfortunately for him, he fell short; reaching too far too soon, and the Russian Winter (and outposts such as Stalingrad) bogged down and finished off his chances of maintaining a Western front. Scholars often site this as Hitlers biggest mistake, but if Hitler were around today – sunning himself and sipping piña coladas in Argentina – he’d probably argue that at that stage in the war, he was already trapped between a huge looming rock and a very hard place. He chose the latter….
Oh, you’re assuming Hitler was thinking more rationally than history shows.
He was – at times – a raving lunatic. Particularly concerning Russia. A large part of his doctrine of racial superiority insisted that Aryans were naturally superior to Russians. He believed that his side would win, because numbers didn’t matter; in his addled head, every German soldier was worth fifty Russians.
There was no strategy behind Hitler’s invasion of Russia except that he thought that he COULD NOT lose. His plan was mankind’s DESTINY: Aryans would subjugate all lesser races and be the sole power on the planet.
In fact, if you go back to Mein Kampf, you’ll see that he had the plan of invading Russia down on paper well before he came into power.
1. jeremy.
Please, before attempting to make any more comments on anything political at least become sufficiently versed as to know what system your country uses. Sounds like MMP to me.
2. diogenes (assuming that is not some id thief)
the drugs OR Listverse huh?
3.deziner 118.
I wonder how much is the built in sense of security of having not been invaded since 1812 and hence lack of cemeteries/memorials to the scale of either WW OR the impact of Hollywood and the game makers in glorifying violence. Even those films that supposedly do not ‘glory’ in war still seem to have the really cool slo mo shots of the bullets ripping ripping into flesh etc.
4. Nice list STL Mo
cheers
Lee
The Heinkel 219 was an awesome machine, and while the numbers may have been exaggerated, it was still the only plane in the Luftwaffe that could catch a Mosquito (another awesome machine btw) at night.
As for the Graf Zeppelin, she would never had made it out of the North Sea, and they knew it.
Sorry, the P-51 was no match for the 262 in the open sky. They only scored by hanging around the airfields and bouncing the 262s as they came in to land.
What about the Metal Gear project? Wait, oh…
#129- Timmy- I have to question your third statement.
If you look at the record of who killed who the most in the battle of these two aircraft,theres no match. The P-51 killed them taking off and landing. So open sky didn`t matter plus aerial tactics weren`t evolved for speeds of the German jet.
They were pretty kickass aircraft for there time though.
Hitler had Parkinses (sp) disease and terciary syphyllis. His brain was full of holes. Literally. Swiss chese.
125 looser- You know whats up. If Hitler didnt go after Stalin he would have been in power for a buttload of time.
Top 10 Weapons That Could Have Lost Us The War…..but didn’t. YAY!
It makes my heart sing to see something like this take place.
A list is put forward with a certain postulate. People have a look, research and form their own conclusions. They disagree, they argue and everyone is better for it.
The scientific method is alive and well!
STL Mo: You sell the Germans VERY short by listing only 10!
There were many others:
The Me262 was only one of 12 active Jet-powered (or rocket-powered fighters, bombers & fighter-bombers on active service with the Luftwaffe by May ’45. The others were:
Arado Ar234 Blitz (bomber)- the 2-engine & the 4-engine versions
Bachem Ba349 Natter (fighter)
Feisler Fi 103R (manned V1)
Focke Wulf Ta183 Huckbein (fighter)
Heinkel He178 (fighter)
Heinkel He162 Volksjager aka Salamander (fighter) – the Salamander also spawned a second version; the He162D which had a V-tail and forward-swept wings. It was faster and even more manouvreable than its “parent”
Heinkel He280 (fighter)
Henschel Hs132 – (fighter): very similar to the Salamander
Horton Ho IX: aka Gotha Go229 – (Flying Wing Bomber) – due to go into operation but failed to do so due to Germany’s surrender. Developed by and went into use with the USAAF
Junkers Ju287 – (fighter-bomber) same fate as the Horton – but developed and went into service with the USSR
Messerschmitt 163 – Rocket-propelled Fighter
On top of these 11, the Germans had no less than 140 other jet fighters on the drawing boards of various aviation companies building for the Reich. These were:
- 11 Arado
- 17 Blohm und Voss
- 2 BMW
- 2 Daimler Benz
- Dornier
- 18 Focke Wulf + 1 VTOL
- 4 Gotha
- 10 Heinkel
- 4 Henschel
- 17 Lippisch
- 34 Messerschmitt
- 8 Junkers
+ 14 ‘other makes including one Ramjet-powered craft and one Rocket-fuelled Amerika Bomber
There were also at least 28 Bombers:
Arado – 3: all jet-powered
Blohm und Voss – 3
BMW -4
Dornier – Long Range Flying Boat/Bomber
Focke Wulf – 3 Long Range & 1 Strategic
Heinkel – 3 strategic & 1 Long Range
Horten – 4 all Flying Wings – long-range bombers
Junkers – 4 Long Range including 1 Jet-powered L/R bomber
Add to these the fact that on no less than two occasions a Junkers Ju-390 was despatched from Germany to fly to New York as test flights. They flew the round-trips non-stop and turned back only 15 miles from the Manhattan shoreline (the US radar only reached out 12 miles or so at the time and they turned back because even if they were detected, no fighter could catch them chasing from behind.
A further weapon you failed to mention – and one which would have proved to be far more destructive and devastating than V1 & 2 combined was the little-known V3. This was a bank of artillery barrels buried in the chalk at Mimoyeques (France) and aimed at London. There were 15 barrels arranged in three rows of 5. Each was 500-feet long and could fire a 5-ton shell and could, at operational efficiency, fire a shot every 3 to 4 minutes. Moreover, the shells were a slow-burning-fuse variety which meant, unlike the massive barrels of WW1 – these would not quickly burn out. Has they become operational, they could have shelled London and the Invasion Ports at such a rate that London alone would have received more high explosive dropped on it in under a week than both Germany AND Britain ultimately endured over the entire conflict COMBINED.
Shagrat – interesting list, and I am aware of many of those things, but you sell ME short. Read the introduction, where you’ll see that this list (except for #10) primarily concerns weapons systems that were either put into actual production or were built and tested in the prototype stage. I almost included the He-163 and the Arado jet bomber but left them off in favor of the 262. And the rocket-powered Me-163 was a novelty and not at all a useful weapons system, unlike the 262.
Also, I thought it was understood, but I guess not, that I pretty well covered each type of primary weapons system.
You list of stuff is interesting, and would make an intriguing list of German weapons systems that never made it off the drawing boards.
Just a personal anecdote: I grew up in a tiny, tiny village in the far west of Germany that nobody has ever heard of. But in our local woods the remains of a concrete foundation can be seen: this was the place where the V2 was launched. My grandma always tells stories about how the Nazis hid the thing (it must have been rather large) right in their frontyard under tall trees when Allied bombers flew over (which they frequently did). My great-grandmother, who must have been a scary person judging by her photograph, got into trouble when she tried to drive them away.
#115 – If I recall correctly, the Me-209 set the absolute speed record before the war, whereas the He-100 set the average speed record. I’ll look it up.
GTT- I didn’t post that.
I’m DH61, not 60. No idea why someone would want to imitate my name of all people.
Don’t lose faith in me yet!
I would’ve thought that the Type XXI subs would’ve been higher on the list. Let’s face it, all the others of that time, regardless of side, were submersibles. The Type XXI was the first true submarine.
downhighway61 (140):
There it is! I knew I was missing something!! Darn ID thiefs out to confuse people by changing just one number!
Lifeschool–I agree
Even though he was a Nazi and all, I enjoyed Dieterle’s joyous cartwheel as he left the plane after his record flight of the HE-100 in number eight.
never mind all that *****.
what did travis say?
-”In trained hands, the StG-44 could lay down a devastating hail of 7.92mm bullets (the same as used by the Kar98), and provided the power of the Kar98 and up-close versatility of the MP-40.”
well not exactly, the StG fires the 7.92x33mm Kurz (short) round while the Kar98 fires 7.92x57mm IS. Basically a shorted, less powerful intermediate cartridge. Think more powerful than a pistol cartridge but not as powerful as a rifle cartridge, similar to the AK-47/SKS round (7.62x39mm as opposed to the full sized Russian 7.62x54R round)
Thanks, evan. I’m not a firearms expert and was going on what I had intitially read.
I wouldn`t want to be on the receiving end of either gun thankyou.
The P-51 was no match for the Me262, The P51D which was the variant used against the Me262 had a top speed of 441mph
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustangtest.html
The Me 262 could fly well in excess of 500mph
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Flying_the_Me-262.html
STL Mo – point well taken. However, I feel you are being overly harsh in labelling the Me163 as “a novelty and not at all a useful weapons system, unlike the 262″
The 163 was more than just a novelty, flew several hundred intercept ‘sorties’ and were horribly feared by the bomber crews. The basic reason was that they didn’t “fly” as such as a conventional propellor or jert fighter did. They were an incredibly fast “bypass assault” on the vertical and then a 5 – 10 minute rocket-assisted glide-attack through a bomber stream utilising automatic cannon – shells 20-30mm across!
As for pre-war speed records; was not the Supermarine the fastest – given that the majority of these planes were tested in that most prestigious of air competitions; the Schneider Trophy – and they had to be a seaplane configuration to enter that – a much slower format than a pure fighter.
As for the Me262 versus the P-51; these are the best figures I could locate:
Top speed for the Me262 (in a dive) was recorded at 559 mph; or 900 kph
The P-51 Mustang on the other hand defveloped rapidly over its life and with alterations increased its speed dramatically: especially after the troublesome Allison engine was replaced with varying types of Rolls Royce Merlins: In the latter format, one of the fastest formats was the P-51H which achieved a very creditable 485 mph; or 780 kph, IN LEVEL FLIGHT at 25,000 ft (7,600 m).
An interesting anecdote I read many years ago relates the encounter that established that the 262 (long-anticipated feared by the Allies) was finally operational. The story was by a pilot flying a reconnaissance mission in a de Havilland Mosquito over Germany. Two previous reconnaissance missions to the area resulted in non-returns by either plane or pilot: Air Command figured they’d been shot down by flack or ambushed by fighters: this guy was truly a case of ‘third time lucky’. The pilot radioed he had an unidentifiable twin-engined aircraft in his mirrors and advised he was going to “hit the button” to outrun and evade it. He “put his foot down”, so to speak and was stunned when the damn thing not only CAUGHT him and fires its cannon at him, but then circled around a few more times trying to put a few more shots into the ‘Mozzie’!!! The piulot ultimately lost the ‘strange aircraft’ only when he managed to dive into a large bank of handy cloud and the ‘German aircraft’ lost him!
It was on return to his airfield and after he was debriefed that the ‘brass’ realised their worst fears had come true – the German Jet was finally ‘in the air’ and shooting down its fastest craft.
I think the anecdote was recorded in a readers Digest Volume called “Secrets and Stories of the War”: if not, it was in one of the many books I’ve owned over the years.
#136
Heinkel He178: was never fitted with guns and was strictly a research aircraft and placed in a museum in 1943,
Heinkel He280: Was passed over for the ME 262 and was not in service in 1945
Henschel Hs132: Had not even flown by war’s end.
Focke Wulf Ta183: Also had not flown by war’s end.
The V-3 fired 150mm shells.
#150 ME-163 they also lost more aircraft from accidents then combat and JG400 the only operational unit was only credited with shooting down 9 planes. The plane was not a resounding success.
I’ve come to the conclusion that Jajdude is either a sociology professor or some other such highly educated genius… And he’s just *****ing with us!…
Kudos Dr Jajdude. Kudos.
Shagrat
The P-51H was a lightened version of the P-51D developed after the war and never saw service against the Me 262.
Shagrat, others:
Okay, it falls upon me to settle this ridiculous debate.
The ME163 “Komet” was a lousy plane that required extraordinarily skilled pilots to use it properly—and all too often those pilots ended up dead. It was little better than a manned projectile with control surfaces, and while remarkably fast, it could stay in the air only a short time before running out of fuel. Once it was in glide mode, it was easy prey to whatever Allied fighter happened to be around to pick it off. An innovative, but in the end stupid, weapon.
The ME262 was of course far better as a workable aircraft, but it had great flaws throughout its service time: A) the engines invariably had a tendency to catch fire; B) they also gulped fuel, which was rare and growing rarer every day in the Reich; C) Hitler had stupidly insisted that the plane be equipped to carry bombs, which made it heavier and slightly slower; and D) it was often flown by inexperienced pilots (most experienced pilots had been killed or captured by this time).
It was, it’s true, faster than the P51, but speed is not the only measure of a fighter plane’s quality (though it’s a primary one). There were instances where the P51 was more maneuverable, and certainly in the hands of a more capable pilot, it was able to overcome the jet. The fact is that more ME262′s fell to P51′s than vice versa, and while, yes, it’s a bit of a stretch to call the Mustang a MATCH for the ME262, it’s nevertheless a fact that under the right circumstances and with a good pilot flying the P51, it could take on the jet with more than a reasonable chance of being victorious. The real experience in WWII bears this out.
Now yes, true, had the ME262 come into service earlier, and been allowed to be developed strictly as a fighter–and if its bugs had been worked–and if it had been flown by more capable pilots–and built in sufficient numbers–a LOT of “ifs”–it would have overwhelmed, eventually, all Allied opposition and made the war bloodier and longer.
Would it have won the war for Germany? Unlikely. German inventiveness was not, in fact, actually superior to that of the Allies—it was, more accurately, born out of desperation. British and American jet experiments were actually proceeding apace during the war (remember, the British had the FIRST operational jet aircraft, the Gloucester Meteor) and had the *necessity* been there, an earlier version of the ME262 would have soon found opponents in the air that could challenge it.
The simple answer is that in an even match, with two skilled pilots, it was NOT a foregone conclusion that the ME262 would beat the Mustang. By the same token, neither was the jet a pushover for the P51 by any means.
RE: Hitlers dive bombing tactics. Having looked into his tactics, it appears Hitler saw war on three levels, the air war, the ground war, and the sea war. He figured the air war was the most important as by gaining air superiority he could fly planes to bomb any target on land or sea. Rather than let the ‘enemy’ gather their forces on the battlefield, he enthused that divebombing the ‘enemy’ on the WAY to the battlefield was the best line of defence; to soften ‘em up and cause road blocks. He also liked to dive bomb bridges, roads, and towns where the ‘enemy’ may be hiding, and precision bomb prime targets from low levels rather than fly very high and randomly drop a payload (in the gound war that is, not the civilian war). Divebombers not only had the means to locate advancing forces, but also had the clout to take out the camps and bases while still on location, rather than fly back and report – by which time the camp or base may have moved or been removed altogether. Mainland Europe didn’t have radar at that time, so dive bombing was effective on most Theatre targets not protected by anti-aircraft batteries.
Today, now that Radar and missiles are very accurate, dive bombing becomes next to useless in that by the time a plane gets anywhere near a target, ground-to-air missiles have already shot it down. Warfair is more about power and technology now rather than strategic versitility – which seems a shame.
Shagrat,
Your list is full of anecdotal trivia, but very short on useful facts.
The Ju390 flight to New York you mentioned never happened – it’s just not possible. The great circle distance alone is beyond even the claimed range of the plane, and it would have had to add almost 600 miles to go around New England instead of over it.
The V-3 was never built, let alone fired. With the exception of #10, every other weapon in this list was actually built. Also, a weapon that cannot be aimed is not a very useful weapon.
Also, just listing a bunch of rocket and jet-powered aircraft doesn’t help. Very few of those went beyond the test phase and fewer were deployed – mainly because they weren’t very successful weapons platforms.
For example, you list the He-162 as a weapon that could have lost us the war – without mentioning that it had a THIRTY MINUTE endurance. Not very useful!
Horton Ho IX? The sum total of powered flight for all versions ever built was two hours. Not exactly a proven weapon.
Many of the other fighters? Canceled in favor of the Me262, which is discussed above.
The list is titled “Weapons that could have lost us the war,” not “cool planes that look good on a paper napkin but are operationally useless.”
155 Lifeschool: Warfair is more about power and technology now rather than strategic versitility – which seems a shame.
I might be misinterpreting your phrasing, but you seem to say that as if war is a game. “Takes the fun out of it”…?
For those commenting about Bush being a warmonger, you’d be wise to remember that Reagan was vilified during his tenure and soon after as well. Now, he is regarded as one of the five best Presidents ever.
You should also notice that Obama is maintaining many of the items that Bush was heavily critized for, such as wiretapping, Gitmo, torture, etc. Obama is maintaining all of these and expanding presence in Afganistan. Quite hypocritical, but what’s to expect from the left.
Though I have my issues with Bush as well, just watch. In about 10-20 years, he will be remembered differently, especially in keeping us safe for 8 years.
#156 – From Oslo Norway to NYC is only 1,267 miles one way. The FW 200 had a ferrying range of 2,759 miles, the JU 290 had a max range of 3,822 miles, and the HE 177 had a max range of 3,418 miles so it quite conceivable that the JU-390 flight could have occured.
It’s been well documentated that the V-3 was built and fired, it however was 150mm of around 80lbs and not the 5 tons that was been suggested. In 1944 the first of the guns located in Misdroy achieved a max range of 59 miles before it blow up.
159. VikingBerserker – “From Oslo Norway to NYC is only 1,267 miles one way.”
Fact check: Oslo, Norway to New York City is a distance of 3676 miles or 5196 km.
carry on…
“the StG-44 could lay down a devastating hail of 7.92mm bullets (the same as used by the Kar98)”
Correction, it did NOT use the same cartridge; although it was a variation of it. The Kar98 took a full size 7.92x57mm Mauser rifle cartridge, the StG-44 took the “7.92 kurz” (kurz means short i think) which was basically the same cartridge only shortened to 7.92×33.
So, like the AK it was an intermediate cardrige, in between the rifle and SMG.
U missed the greatest weapon of them all George Bush and to an extent John Rambo.(he’ll give u a war u’ll never believe)
Might I suggest another quite different aircraft for the list? Although it was piston engined and under test when the war ended, it outperformed the P51 variants in ALL aspects, as was discovered after the war when P51s were detailed to ***** one of the captured aircraft: The Dornier 335
JIM C #156 – The Ju-390 flights DID happen – check your facts. Since research is the mother of enlightenment I shall not point you in the direction of the authoritative texts I own ehich list the flights by date – find it yourself.
The V-3 barrels at Mimoyeques: learn to read. I never SAID they were fired – they WERE, however, built. The slab protecting them from aerial attack was broken up and the shafts destroyed by 617 Squadron (The original Dambusters – as opposed to the American usurpers of the title) – in a ‘Tallboy’-armed attack. That same attack also buried several hundred soldiers, engineers and workers alive – none of whom ever got out!
VIKINGBERSERKER #151: As for Jim C – each aircraft I mentioned flew at least ONE sortie – intentional or otherwise is irrelevant and the one by the 1789 WAS flown with weaponry – 1945: you find the date(s) and action(s)!
As for the ‘Komet’ – I know they lost more to accidents than what they shot down. I never said they were in any real measure, effective. What I DID say – provided you can actually READ and not just assume what you have seen – was that the bomber pilots were terrified of them because they didn’t ACT like a CONVENTIONAL aircraft! As a scare tactic they were brilliant – imagine if the Germans had developed it and ironed out the kinks earlier! BTW and FYI – the Me262 also suffered a disproportionate accident rate either in-fligght be pilots untried in such incredibly quick craft – or on landing. At least ONE major ‘ace’ was killed in a landing ‘mishap’.
PAUL #153 At least ONE person on this list has the inteligence to make a relevant remark which is NOT based on misinterpreting something which was said previously!
Yo are, in fact, correct – the ‘H’ WAS a lighter ‘stripped down’ version of the D (the most famous of the 51′s and one I have seen in flight over Duxford in a mock fly-off/dogfight against a P-40 Warhawk: it DESTROYED it and flew circles around it).
However – I didn’t actually say IT and the Schwalbe ever flew against each other I simnply compared top speeds and HOW they achieved it: maybe I was at fault in that I probably should have ended with a speculation based on their flying against one another at somewhere above ‘Angels 20′ in level flight?!!
Finally:
RANDALL #154 – You arrogant, pin-headed moron. Who ASKED you to settle this or ANY frickin argument? Who elected YOU the almanac of everything aeronautical as developed and flown by Nazi Germany?
Take a day off from your ego and try accepting that others just MIGHT have access to information which is NOT at your disposal. Unless you are an authority on German Aircraft of World War 2 or even a Military History expert; just shut the F**k up.
BTW – by way of interest; I have a close friend (an American) who just happens to BE both a PhD in Military History and who has written several very pertinent texts on Miltary Aircraft which are considered required reading by genuine historians: I have all those he has written including his latest which is yet to be released. His intials are JKF!
Next time – don’t bring a comic-book to a ‘fact fight’!
Shagrat:
You know, I made the attempt to make nice with you, but since you insist on being a prick about this (why, one wonders–does any of this nonsense matter? It’s like Trekkies arguing over who would win in a fight, the Klingons or the Federation) I’m forced to answer in kind.
A) I could, of course, present the same question back to you: What gives YOU the right to sound off like a gigantic blowhard about “everything aeronautical” in regards to Nazi Germany? Who the hell are you?
B) I see no reason why I should “shut the f**k up” simply on YOUR say so. In fact, being told to “shut the f**k up” by some loudmouthed ***** on the internet tends to rankle me quite a bit and make me all argumentative. Always try the carrot first, Shagrat, THEN the stick. It’s worth the effort sometimes.
C) Neither do I feel the need to justify my credentials to the likes of you. As we’ve all realized here in the past, any damn jerk with an axe to grind can make up any kind of credential or claim for themselves that they wish. In point of fact, however, I DO possess a professional credential in regards to History, and my father was himself a combat pilot in WWII. So you see, I do know something or other about the subject we’re addressing here.
D) When it comes to “comic books” you quite frankly have taken the cake, so let’s not cast disparaging remarks when your own facts are so terribly shaky.
But let’s not bicker on silly details, because it could go on all day. My post was written to solely address the arguing going on in regards to the Komet and the ME 262, the only rocket and jet propelled aircraft that the Nazis ever actually fielded in the fight that MATTERED. (a lot of experimental aircraft–some of which never even got off the drawing board–are not pertinent to the discussion at hand. We could use the same logic you’re using and go back and say that Leonardo Da Vinci ALMOST gave to his patrons relatively advanced tank technology and flight capabilities via airfoil AND helicopter design. With these, all of Europe could have been conquered. Sure, maybe so. But it never actually HAPPENED. Da Vinci’s designs never really got off the drawing board. And in many instances, neither did the Nazi devices, craft, and weapons that YOU cited).
Now, as I was saying, my purpose was to address the arguing going on about the Komet and ME 262. And I addressed them. As I said—was the Mustang a “match” for the ME 262? Not exactly, no. But UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES it COULD be, given the various handicaps with which the ME 262 was hampered. The Komet was even worse–a near pointless weapon that managed to inflict some casualties but never even came close to turning the tide of the war.
I fail to see what irked you so in these assertions. They’re based quite simply on the FACTUAL circumstances that ACTUALLY prevailed during the latter period of the war–namely, that both the Komet and the ME 262 were reduced to being ineffective weapons despite the innovative prescience of design which they represented–and that they therefore did NOTHING to alter the end result of the war–which is that Nazi Germany lost. Had, yes, the Nazis possessed these weapons two years earlier, the conflict would have been far bloodier and longer. Further, if they had developed even some of the other designs you cite, in numbers, then the outcome of the war may even have been in question. BUT THEY DIDN’T. In fact, they never even came close.
The bottom line is, you’ve presented a lot of trivia and anecdotal ramblings with an apparent desire to lend yourself gravitas by doing so. But your statements are akin to the old saw about angels on pinheads. And your defensive bluster in the face of my challenge shows that you’re THAT close to the edge on all this, and you know it. Your intense dislike for being challenged shows, like all blowhards who like to ACT like they know it all because it makes them feel important.
I find it comical that this shagrat refuses to cite his references because “search is the mother of enlightenment”
That argument holds no water in academic circles. Why should it here. If you wont give your references, how do we know they are genuine, or accurate – just on your say so? I think not.
I’m not going to get involved in the historical wrankling – history is not my cup of tea past 1500 or so. But this is ridiculous.
Shagrat – cite your sources
Randall – breathe.
Spitfire FTW!
* that quote should read “research” not search. Damn mouse.
Showtime! Damm the debates are good when they start with these discussions. Now let see here…. Randall fired last so I guess its SHAGRATs turn again.
158 Steelman.
“Though I have my issues with Bush as well, just watch. In about 10-20 years, he will be remembered differently, especially in keeping us safe for 8 years.”
Kept you safe? What? He was president during the worst terror attacks in US history! He sends you into a war for oil getting US and British troops killed under false pretences.
Afghanistan is an international problem. Saying we should ignore it (as you are implying) is daft.
Obama is closing down G.bay, and re-writing the CIA handbook on interrogation procedure. Factcheck – How does that tally with him condoning torture and maintaining the bush era?
I doubt this man will be remembered as a hero or anything other than a lacklustre president. The world rejoices now that obama is in the white house.
(Not to mention the fallout from katrina!)
Shagrat:
And another thing, which I missed earlier and only just now caught in re-reading your repeated ravings.
IN FACT, NO… there is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that ANY Nazi aircraft ever made a successful long-range flight to the east coast of the United States. For one who is so ready to refer to the knowledge of others as “comic book,” YOUR knowledge, once again, reads exactly like that which one would expect to find in some old copy of “G8 and His Battle Aces.”
In point of fact, there were numerous claims of such a flight(s) but there has never been ONE SINGLE SCRAP of evidence to prove that they ever occurred. And, in fact, as Jim C pointed out (quite correctly) such a flight would have been HIGHLY doubtful of success and was actually nigh on impossible.
In fact, I find much more sense in what Jim C wrote than any of the “facts” you have blurted out and tried to pass off as true. He’s correct on the Horten, the HE 162 AND the V-3.
Clearly you’re one of these rabid believe-anything nuts who thinks because a claim was made or a project existed on paper and was rumored to have been built and flown, then it must have happened. I’m surprised we didn’t hear about Nazi UFO’s from you next… but maybe you already brought those up—I haven’t had time (and have had less inclination) to go back and read every post you’ve offered up here.
Before you go dissing others on their knowledge of history, I strongly suggest you clean up your own yard first and make sure you’ve got your story straight. All you’ve repeated here are rumors, innuendo and tall tales of the aviation variety. I could sit here and say that there definitely IS a hypersonic “Aurora” spy plane in the American arsenal, which is a popular rumor/conspiracy theory that’s made the rounds for years now—but in fact there isn’t a shred of evidence to really back up the existence of such an aircraft. Nevertheless people go around *claiming* that it exists every day. Your claims here, for the most part, are tantamount to the same thing.
gabi319 (160):
Fact check… See, this is why I like you. You´re all quite and then come in with a correction on one little fact.
Carry on…
172. GTT – “gabi319 (160): Fact check… See, this is why I like you. You´re all quite and then come in with a correction on one little fact.
”
I’ll whisper a little secret. I’m quiet because for once I have nothing to say! Give me some paintbrushes and canvas or a science topic or if I’m hungry for troll, some idiot stupid enough to get in my sightline… I can discuss those fairly well. But planes and warfare and machinery? Better to watch the conversation and learn from them rather than spew crap I know I can’t back up.
and thank you for remembering to take care of my ego
I do try to understand my fair share of US politics but it’s much more interesting to watch and very aggravating to participate. There were a good couple of days I purposefully placed an LV ban on myself because of a string of political lists and more aggravatingly, a string of political list comment boards!
169. cymraegbachgen87 – “The world rejoices now that obama is in the white house.”
Just remember to keep a realistic and objective view on it all. Just as I yell at people that it’s too soon to criticize his whole term, it’s too soon to glorify it as well.
carry on…
173. gabi319:
HA! See, I do remember!
And you´re right… I´m sitting here seriously considering compiling a summary of all the different types of guns and planes because I know they´ll just end up all confused in my head. Not my thing but interesting to read.
Plus, it´s always fun when Randall gets fired up!
WELL I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOUR COMMENTS BUT IMAGINE IF WE WERE SITTING ON OUR ASSES AND WATCHING TV WITH A BEER AND WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING !!!!! OR IMAGINE IF WE ALL HAD FREAKIN SLINGSHOT TO DEFEND AGAINST ANOTHER COUNTRY LIKE EX : KOREA or IRAN or maybe JAPAN !!!!!
Anyways nothing really intelligent to say ,like most of your comments !!!!!!!!!
over & out ……..
cymraegbachgen87 (169)
Do you always bite so well
He’s just a troll
Cheers
Lee
One small point; you state that had the V-2 been turned against military installations it would have been cheaper than sending in fighters and bombers; this is only partially true.
A single V-2 unit (missile only, not the launching apparatus) cost as much to construct as a four-engined long-range bomber, and required a larger crew to maintain and operate. Construction also required vast quantities of unusual compounds (potassium permanganate for example) that, while not uncommon, were more troublesome to procure in quantity than aviation materials.
While a bomber could be reasonably expected to return and used again, the V-2 was (obviously) a one-shot deal that almost unavoidably consumed more military resources than it could reasonably be expected to destroy with a limited payload.
While the value of striking heavily defended/otherwise inaccessible facilities would be undeniable, the (over)use of the V-2 is proposed by some historians as a contributing factor to the eventual Allied victory; had such efforts been directed into reinforcement of the Luftwaffe or development of jet aircraft, the war would certainly have gone rather differently, at least in Europe.
in reference to comment 13. the nazi’s had wanted to build an atomic bomb. but their project was a hoax meant to keep the pressure on the U.S. they had all the elements needed for it the only problem was that they were still trying to find a viable way to make one that was usable.
Thank god for Colonel Hogan and the crew at Stalag 13!!
most of Germany’s so called super weapons were plagued with serious design flaws and resulted in them being unusable. the development of new designs takes about 100 times the effort of modifying existing designs. the American F80 fighter was 250 km/hr faster than the Me 262 and it went into service in January 1945 (45 were built before May 1945). the F80 was a very reliable plane, with a production run 5691. the half of the 1100 ME262s built were lost taking off or landing as well as its engine had only 40% of the F80s power. the Luftwaffe couldn’t maintain its piston powered aircraft after Dec 1944 let alone jet engined aircraft.