Top 10 Most Audacious Shootouts in US History
- Published October 14, 2009 by FlameHorse - 177 Comments
These shootouts are police incidents, as opposed to military battles. I have not ranked them according to body count or fame, but according to the reckless disregard for life inherent in them. The list is long but the reading easy and the added details help to show just how astonishing some of these shootouts really were.
At 6221 Osage Ave., Philadelphia, PA, on May 13, 1985, members of MOVE, a predominantly black organization dedicated to nature, and African tradition, were confronted by the Philadelphia Police Dept., after neighbors complained of MOVE’s constant bullhorn announcements of anti-American sentiment at all hours. In an attempt to clear the building, the police fired tear gas, and the fire dept. hosed the roof with water cannons.
A burst of gunfire erupted from inside the building, and the police responded with thousands of rounds of small arms fire for 90 minutes. They then tried to remove two roof structures by dropping a 4 pound bomb of C-4 and Tovex onto the roof. This started a fire that eventually consumed the entire neighborhood. Eleven members of MOVE died in the fire. Only two survived.
The PPD was sued and forced to pay $1.5 million to a survivor and relatives, due to using excessive force and unlawful search and seizure. I have included this as an astounding example of a police force’s audacity and consequent repercussions, as opposed to the rest of the entries.
On August 7, 1970, in an attempt to free his brother, imprisoned Black Panther leader George Jackson, 17-year old Jonathan Jackson walked right into a courthouse in Marin County, California with an arsenal of weapons, stormed a room where a trial was taking place, and armed defendant James McClain, on trial for murdering a prison guard, and two fellow convicts who were participating in the trial as witnesses, William Christmas and Ruchell Magee. The four armed men then took the judge, a district attorney and three jurors hostage, and marched them out of the courthouse into a waiting getaway van.
As they attempted to flee the scene, a shootout began between the suspects and Marin County Sheriffs deputies providing security at the courthouse. By the end of the gun battle, Jackson, McClain, Christmas, and judge Harold Haley were killed. According to the hostages, Haley was executed by a shotgun blast to his throat. Magee was severely injured, but survived the battle and was sentenced to life in prison. One juror and the D.A. were also wounded. One of the weapons used by Jackson was later traced to Black Panther icon Angela Davis, who was tried, and acquitted, for participation in the crime.
On April 6, 1970, two heavily armed career criminals, Jack Twinning and Bobby Davis, engaged the California Highway Patrol in Newhall, CA. This resulted in the deadliest day in California law enforcement history.
After dark, Davis almost crashed into another car. The occupants confronted him, and he pulled out a handgun. They claimed that the CHP was coming, and he fled. They called the police. Later, having picked up Twinning, they were pulled over by Officers Walt Frago and Robert Gore, rookies.
At first the suspects complied. Davis exited and allowed himself to be frisked. Frago approached the other side of the car carrying a shotgun at “port arms,” stock against his hip and barrel pointed in the air. This was not procedure.
As Frago walked to the Pontiac, Twinning exited the passenger seat and opened fire with a .38 caliber revolver. Before Frago could aim his shotgun at Twinning, he was struck by two .357 magnum rounds and killed. Gore quickly drew his service revolver and returned fire at Twinning, but in doing so lost track of Davis, who was right next to him. While Twinning and Gore exchanged gunfire, Davis pulled a .38 caliber revolver out of his waistband and killed Gore with two shots in the head, point blank.
Shortly after Gore was killed, a second police cruiser containing CHP officers George Alleyn and James Pence arrived on the scene. As soon as it pulled up to the first cruiser, Davis and Twinning opened fire on it with their revolvers, expending all their remaining rounds, and then dove back into their own car for new weapons. Davis pulled out a sawn-off shotgun, while Twining grabbed a semi-automatic Colt 1911 .45 ACP. After firing one shot, Twinning’s .45 jammed, but he simply grabbed another one out of the car and exited out the driver’s side.
As they did this, officer Alleyn emptied his pump 12-ga shotgun at the Pontiac, firing the gun so fast he accidentally ejected a live round in the process. A single pellet from the shotgun struck Twinning in the forehead, but did not penetrate his skull and inflicted only a minor wound.
After expending all his shotgun rounds, Alleyn opened fire on Davis with his .357 magnum, but scored no hits. Davis returned fire with his sawn-off shotgun, striking Alleyn with several rounds of 00 buckshot and inflicting fatal injuries.
At this point, 31-year-old bystander Gary Kness, a former U.S. Marine, intervened. Kness got out of his vehicle and ran over to the fallen officer Alleyn. He tried to drag Alleyn to safety, but was unable to move him. He looked up and saw Davis discard his now-empty sawn-off shotgun and grab the pump shotgun that had been dropped by Frago. Apparently not realizing Frago had never fired the weapon, Davis tried to cycle the action of the shotgun, but since it had not been fired, it was locked on a live round. He accidentally fired the gun into the air, dropped it and grabbed the service revolver out of Frago’s holster.
Meanwhile on the other side of the cruiser, Pence fired all six rounds from his .357 Magnum revolver at Twinning, and missed. Twinning returned fire with his .45, striking Pence in the chest and both legs. Pence fell, trying to reload. At the time, the CHP did not issue their officers speedloaders, forcing Pence to reload one round at a time.
Back on the other side of the cruiser, Kness picked up Alleyn’s discarded shotgun and tried to shoot at Davis, but the gun was empty. As Davis opened fire on him with Frago’s revolver, Kness dropped the shotgun and returned fire with Pence’s service revolver. His shots struck the Pontiac, and a fragment of one bullet lodged into Davis’ chest. However, the shot did not incapacitate Davis, and Kness was out of ammunition.
While this was going on, the wounded Pence was still attempting to reload his revolver. As he did so, he failed to notice Twinning sneak up to the cruiser and around the left side. As he inserted the sixth cartridge and started to close the cylinder of his weapon, Twinning killed Pence with a point-blank shot to the head. Kness ran for cover in a ditch, and both suspects exchanged fire with the officers of a third CHP cruiser, newly arrived, then ran into the darkness with the officers’ weapons. Davis was apprehended at 3:25 AM, after stealing a civilian’s camper and exchanging fire with him. The owner called the police, who tracked down the camper within hours. Davis was out of ammunition and surrendered.
Twinning broke into a house three miles from the first shootout scene, and took the resident hostage. He bragged to the police for several hours of a standoff that he had wasted Frago. Police then stormed the building with teargas, and twinning shot himself. Davis was given the death penalty, but this was commuted in 1972, when the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty. He killed himself in prison, August 16, 2009, at 67.
On October 20, 1981, more than 10 members of the Black Liberation Army attacked the two drivers on an armored truck outside a bank at the Nanuet Mall in Nanuet, New York. At 3:55 PM, the drivers were hit by fully automatic M-16 fire, and handgun fire, one dying instantly, and the other surviving, but almost losing his arm. The robbers stole $1.6 million and fled in a van, to a nearby parking lot where they changed to a U-Haul truck.
Police converged on the mall, and a college student called to report the vehicle change, after which, four police officers stopped the U-Haul and another get-away car, and were immediately engaged by the robbers. One suspect, a woman, pretended to be innocent and convinced the police to lower their guard, whereupon, six men jumped out of the back of the U-Haul with M-16s and body armor, and opened fire.
Two officers were killed, the other two wounded. The last officer to keep fighting, Brian Lennon, was unable to exit his car, and fired his shotgun through his windshield at the robbers, attempting to ram him with the U-Haul. They fled the scene, some on foot, some in their second vehicle, others carjacking a civilian.
They were apprehended over the next 6 years, following an extensive investigation, and all received long prison sentences. The Brinks guard who survived, Joe Trombino, died in the WTC, on September 11, 2001.
George “Babyface” Nelson (pictured dead above) engaged FBI agents in a running gun battle through Barrington, IL, a suburb of Chicago, on November 27, 1934. The events that transpired cemented Nelson’s infamy as a reckless criminal who had no fear of death.
He was driving down the road with his wife and John Chase, an accomplice, in the car, along with several weapons, when he passed a car of FBI agents going the other way. Both parties recognized each other, and Nelson swung his car around, and he and Chase began firing at the FBI who attempted to get away. An astonishing reversal of the normal situation.
The FBI fired back and disabled Nelson’s car with a shot through the radiator. He drove it into a small field, and the FBI drove away and set up an ambush that never came. They then returned, and resumed the firefight with Nelson and Chase in the field.
Two more agents joined the fight, Herman Hollis and Samuel Cowley. Hollis had killed Pretty Boy Floyd a month earlier. The agents stopped their vehicle in a hail of Nelson and Chase’s gunfire and fired back. Nelson was hit in the stomach as his wife fled the scene. She saw the hit, and reported Nelson to sit down on the running board of his car, while Chase continued to shoot.
Nelson then snarled and stood, walked right out from behind his car into the gunfire and screamed at Hollis and Cowley, “I’m gonna kill you sons of bitches!” and opened fire with a .351 semi-automatic rifle, firing so rapidly that it was mistaken for a Thompson submachine gun.
Hollis and Cowley fled in terror, while Chase kept the other two agents pinned down. Cowley turned and fired back, but ran out of ammunition and was gunned down by Nelson. Hollis shot Nelson in both legs with a shotgun, knocking him down.
Nelson proceeded to get to his feet and gun Hollis down, hitting him several times in the head. In all, Nelson was hit 9 times. He, his wife and Chase fled the scene, before the other two agents could return fire. Nelson died that night from his wounds. Chase was captured and went to Alcatraz.
In what is still one of the most indelible mass shootings in U. S. history, Charles Whitman, an ex-Marine who had qualified as a sharpshooter, barricaded himself into the Tower on the campus of the University of Texas at Austin, on August 1, 1966, and opened fire on innocent bystanders for 96 minutes.
He had already killed his mother and wife, and three others on the way up the Tower stairs. He used a scoped Remington 6mm deer rifle, an M-1 carbine, a .35 caliber Remington pump rifle, a .357 magnum revolver, a 9mm Luger, and a sawn-off 12-ga pump shotgun.
He commenced firing at 11:48 am, and indiscriminately killed 11 civilians, and wounded 32 more, before police officers were able to get up to the observation deck and shoot him down.
He shot a pregnant woman through the stomach. This was probably a deliberate attempt to kill the fetus, which succeeded. The mother, Claire Wilson survived. He shot Paul Sonntag, a student, through the mouth, from 400 yards, then shot his fiancée, Claudia Rutt in the chest, as she attempted to drag him behind cover.
Ambulances and even an armored car were employed to rescue pinned-down civilians. An ambulance driver, Morris Hohmann, was shot through the leg.
In true Texas style, civilians in the area ran to their vehicles and brought out their own deer rifles, shotguns, and handguns, and returned fire to the top of the tower, pinning Whitman down well enough for nine officers to get to the top of the building. Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy flanked Whitman, and Martinez emptied his revolver at him, wounding him. McCoy then fired two rounds of 12-ga 00 buckshot into the head, neck and left side of Whitman, killing him instantly.
Martinez then grabbed the shotgun from McCoy, ran up to Whitman’s body, and shot him again in the upper left arm, point blank. There is a photo of Whitman’s dead body on Wikipedia. He was subsequently found to have a glioblastoma, a brain tumor that could have caused his erratic mentality, as he had not always been homicidal.
One of the most astounding cases of physical stamina in history occurred on April 11, 1986, in Miami, FL, when the FBI cornered two career robbers, William Matix and Michael Platt. Matix was an ex-Army MP. Platt was ex-Army Special Forces. They were armed with a Ruger Mini-14 5.56mm, a shotgun, and two S&W .357 magnums.
The FBI outnumbered them 4 to 1, but still found itself outgunned as the agents fired 9mms. The FBI began the confrontation by ramming the suspects’ car into a tree. What followed prompted the FBI to change from the 9mm to .40 Sig. Platt fired across Matix’s body at McNeill and Mireles, two agents, hitting Mireles in the forearm. Matix then shot at Grogan and Dove, two more agents, with his .357. Grogan shot Matix in the right forearm. McNeill fired six shots, hitting Matix twice, in the head and neck, and knocking him unconscious.
Platt exited the car and was shot by Dove through the upper right arm. This 9mm round penetrated his right lung, collapsed it, and stopped less than two inches from his heart. His chest cavity filled with 1.3 liters of blood. Platt crossed over the hood of another car and was shot twice more by Dove, in the right thigh and left foot. He took cover by the car and fired his .357 at Risner and Orrantia, two more agents. He fired at Hanlon, Grogan, and Dove, and was hit a fourth time, breaking his forearm. He dropped his gun and was shot a fifth time, the bullet penetrating the right upper arm, armpit, torso, and stopping below the shoulderblade.
Platt shot back, wounding Orrantia and hitting McNeill in the neck, incapacitating him. Dove’s pistol was shot and destroyed. Hanlon fired and was hit in the hand. Platt charged Grogan and Dove’s car, though wounded in the leg, foot, and twice in the chest, and shot Grogan dead through the chest, shot Hanlon in the groin, and killed Dove with two rounds to the head. As he entered their car to get away, Mireles fired five times from a pump shotgun with only one hand, hitting Platt in both feet.
Matix regained consciouness and joined Platt in the car. Mireles fired four more times, hitting neither. Platt attempted to start the car as two police officers arrived. Mireles staggered up to the car and fired six rounds from his .357. The first two missed. The third, fourth, and fifth hit Matix in the face, shattering his cheeks, jawbone, and spinal column. The sixth penetrated Platt’s chest to the spine.
The fight lasted 4 minutes and saw 145 shots fired. 2 agents and the 2 suspects were killed. Only one man, Ronald Risner, emerged unharmed. Neither suspect had any drugs in his system, according to autopsies. Matix was shot 6 times. Platt was shot 12 times. Their feat has been attributed to nothing more than adrenaline and fearlessness.
In what has been called “the boldest attempt at home invasion in modern history,” two Puerto Rican nationalists, Griselio Torresola and Oscar Collazo, attempted to break into the Blair House in Washington D. C., and assassinate sitting U. S. President Harry S Truman, on November 1, 1950.
They were only armed with one handgun each, and yet walked right up to the front door of the Blair House, while Truman was napping upstairs, and opened fire with the guards at the door. Collazo shot a policeman and then engaged with two Secret Service agents armed with handguns. The policeman he shot drew his pistol and joined in, and Collazo was shot twice, in the head and right arm.
Simultaneously, Torresola opened fire on a policeman in a guard booth, Leslie Coffelt, who expected Torresola to ask for directions, as tourists usually did. Torresola shot him three out of four times with a 9mm Luger, and Coffelt collapsed in the booth. Torresola then engaged with Joseph Downs, a White House security officer, who was struck in the hip, and ran to the Blair House basement door, was hit twice more, and collapsed inside the building, slamming the door shut behind him.
Torresola rejoined his compatriot, and shot the same policeman Collazo had wounded, incapacitating him. Collazo was hit in the chest and incapacitated. Torresola ran out of ammunition, and began reloading, left of the Blair House front steps. Coffelt, mortally wounded, staggered out of the booth and shot Torresola in the head from 30 feet, blowing out a chunk of his brain the size of an apricot.
The entire shootout lasted only 40 seconds. Collazo survived and went to prison. Coffelt succumbed to his wounds four hours later. Truman was unharmed, but woke to the sounds of gunfire and went to the window to see. Had the gunmen shot down all the guards outside, they would have had only one Secret Service agent left, behind the front door with a Thompson Submachine gun, with which to contend, before having unimpeded access to Truman upstairs.
On May 9, 1980, five robbers, armed with an assault rifle, shotguns, handguns, hollow-point ammunition and pipe bombs, robbed the Norco, California Security Pacific Bank at 3:40 PM. They stole $20,000 in cash, and were spotted by a teller at a bank across the street. Deputy Glyn Bolasky was the first to arrive. The robbers spotted him and exited the bank, opened fire and blew out his windshield. He reversed into the street and crashed into another car.
The robbers piled into their van as Bolasky returned fire. He was shot in the face, left elbow, both forearms, and left shoulder, before the robbers fled. His cruiser suffered 47 bullet holes. Two more officers arrived and engaged the robbers while evacuating Bolasky. The robbers’ van was stopped at the scene and they opened fire on other officers joining the fight, before commandeering a truck and fleeing down the highway.
They shot at the pursuing police and threw pipe bombs out the back of the truck, destroying 33 police cruisers, as well as civilian cars, and shot down a police helicopter. The robbers were able to pull well ahead of the police and set an ambush. They killed one officer, wounded two more, and pinned the rest down behind their vehicles until another officer arrived with an AR-15 and opened fire. The robbers fled, suffering one fatality. Another of the five was killed in a shootout the next day. The other three were later captured.
On February 28, 1997, Larry Phillips and Emil Matasareanu attempted to rob the North Hollywood Bank of America. Perhaps inspired by the epic shootout scene in the 1995 film “Heat,” they were extremely heavily armed, with 9mm Berettas; fully automatic AK-47s with drum clips, an HK-91, and an AR-15. They wore homemade body armor of Kevlar sewn around steel trauma plates. They took Phenobarbital to calm their nerves, then walked up to the front door of the bank, put on ski masks and entered at about 9:17 AM. They expected to be in and out within 8 minutes, before police could arrive.
Unfortunately for them, a police cruiser with two officers drove by and saw them put on their masks, and radioed in a possible 211 in progress. The robbers began shooting fully automatic rifle fire into the ceiling, forced the vault open and stole $303,305 in cash. They then forced the 30 or so hostages into the vault, and exited the bank, at 9:38, and initiated the most awe-inspiring hailstorm of domestic violence in United States history.
It lasted for 44 minutes, during which 10 officers and 7 civilians were seriously wounded. The police fired 650 rounds of various small-arms ammunition at the robbers. The robbers fired 1,300 rounds in exchange. They used armor-piercing rounds, which penetrated the officers’ cruisers and vests. The officers, however, could not penetrate the robbers’ armor with their .38 revolvers, 9mms, and 12-ga shotguns.
The robbers shot at a helicopter, which refused to leave, and broadcast the entire battle. Matasareanu entered a white four-door sedan, while Phillips opened the door and retrieved additional drum clips, and continued to fire at officers. The police took cover behind their cars, behind buildings and tollbooths. They were so terribly outgunned that many fled the confrontation to nearby gun stores, and requisitioned AR-15s and M-16s, then returned to the fight.
The robbers were hit hundreds of times but continued shooting unabated. Civilians attempted to flee the area and were shot down indiscriminately. Phillips followed his accomplice down a residential street firing in all directions, until he was hit in the left thumb. His HK-91 jammed, and he dropped it, pulled out his 9mm and returned fire at the officers approaching. His 9mm jammed, and as he cleared it, he placed it under his chin and shot himself dead as an officer shot him.
Matasareanu drove on into the neighborhood. He commandeered a civilian pickup truck and almost fled the scene when the SWAT team arrived. He got out and fired fully automatic rifle fire at them through his own windshield. Some of the SWAT team members were unable to penetrate his armor even with M-16s, with rounds bouncing off, but eventually began wounding him in the torso and arms. They also shot under both cars at his feet. This brought him down, and he died of gunshot wounds before an ambulance could reach him.
Miraculously, not one police officer or civilian died. 19 officers were awarded the Medal of Valor, the police equivalent to the military’s Medal of Honor.




















October 14th, 2009 at 1:36 am
I want a gun.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:41 am
I have a gun. nice list!
October 14th, 2009 at 1:51 am
The last one was impressive – no fatalities!
Epic list
October 14th, 2009 at 1:58 am
I was impressed with the miami shooting.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:00 am
And also with the austin tower sniper. he turned gta into reality
October 14th, 2009 at 2:03 am
They should make a movie about #1
October 14th, 2009 at 2:04 am
Wow. This makes me wonder why the hel guns are even allowed.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:07 am
Damn good list.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:08 am
Can’t remember the name of it but they have made a “straight to DVD” movie about #1.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:12 am
cool, man.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:16 am
@Koko (9): It’s called “44 Minutes” and it’s great.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:32 am
Awesome list!
October 14th, 2009 at 3:01 am
I was expecting Waco to be on here. Was that not the police?
October 14th, 2009 at 3:03 am
Anyone else get sent to a fake spyware site from this page? >_>
October 14th, 2009 at 3:11 am
Excellent list. Top-notch read, well done FlameHorse
October 14th, 2009 at 3:27 am
Great list as usual
My morning:
Froot Loops- check
Coffee- check
Marlboro 100s- check
Andrew Bird record- check
Extreme violence…..
aaand check.
BTW- highest up comment for me ever. By 50 or so.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:39 am
Awesome list ,#6 went GTA on them and I thought heat were inspierd by #1 this is intense
October 14th, 2009 at 3:49 am
they should copy the design of the bullet proof vest from number 1, seems pretty effective
October 14th, 2009 at 3:57 am
this list is awesome, I know about most of these, and the #1 is well deserved
October 14th, 2009 at 4:24 am
I remember the MOVE tragedy here in Philly, it all unfolded on the news. What the writer fails to really highlight is that THEY DROPPED A BOMB ON A ROWHOUSE! Have you ever heard of a city (not the army) doing something so outrageous?!?! Philly is an amazing city but that will forever be a blight on us.
There is video of #1 out there and it is simply amazing, especially how calm and cool the robbers look.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:38 am
excellent list – I really enjoyed reading it
October 14th, 2009 at 5:00 am
This was seriously a win.
This list made me happy.
I agree with comment #1, I want a gun, too!
October 14th, 2009 at 5:06 am
Very interesting list. We just had a drug deal gone wrong that turned into a bar-room shoot out. It was all caught on the bar surveillance video. I was enjoying my once weekly greasy spoon brunch on Sunday and saw Toledo, Ohio on CNN-the surveillance video to accompany the piece. Once again Toledo made headline news…great job, Toledo!
October 14th, 2009 at 5:34 am
I remember the Austin shooting vividly. I was a teenager at home for the summer watching TV when the news flash and live feed came. It was mesmerizing.
October 14th, 2009 at 5:39 am
Great list, and I own several guns!
Just goes to show what one motivated(batshit crazy) man can do with a firearm.
October 14th, 2009 at 5:40 am
machine guns on the list, shiny barrel yo
October 14th, 2009 at 5:47 am
You Americans and your guns. What’s that about?
October 14th, 2009 at 5:51 am
Look up the video of the one that just happened in Toledo Oh. It was pretty badass. Were still laughing about it here. nobody got hit, but there was like 10 of them
October 14th, 2009 at 5:53 am
it sad to see what people can do to one another
October 14th, 2009 at 5:54 am
Not sure I’ve seen “44 Minutes” or a documentary of the North Hollywood Shootout – but whichever, it was still pretty impressive.
Exceptional list – like Scrumpy (#13) I half expected Waco to be on the list – I think that was an FBI / DEA bust – but I’m not sure there was much “shooting back” by the residents of Koresh’s compound ???
Not sure – we got the ‘glory news’ of it over here but not a lot of the ‘nitty-gritty’ so most of us were still in the dark about a lot ofi it.
Also – most of these incidents appear to have been started by the ‘perpetrators / criminals’ and I’m not sure who fired the first Waco shot: we got the impression here that it was predominantly an government agency “bull-at-the-gate” operation and as a result ‘went pear shaped’.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:02 am
i seem to remember watching #1 live on tv as it was happening. well, either live or they replayed the whole thing later on.
good list even though i wasn’t holding out much hope for it to be very interesting when i first saw the title of it.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:11 am
Waco and Ruby Ridge didn’t make it for sheer infamy?
October 14th, 2009 at 6:19 am
crazy americans……constitutions can change u idiots…im not against gun ownership but FFS limit it to people who are not thick as pig shit.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:21 am
NICE.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:32 am
There are different accounts of how Pretty Boy Floyd was killed. The FBI says it was 4 FBI agents who shot him after Floyd fired back at them while he was laying down from being wounded. They said Hollis was never there.
The local police say that Hollis executed the wounded Floyd by following an order.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:37 am
#1 occured around the time the movie Heat with Robert DeNiro came out. I don’t remember which was first but there was a shootout scene in the movie that was exactly what occured in the real life shootout.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:44 am
The MOVE tragedy along with Waco and Ruby Ridge shows how police and law enforcement agencies overstep their boundries and break the law and violate our rights when their real motive is just revenge. They can carry guns and storm into our houses but we can’t defend ourselves against them? Sometimes the cops get what they deserve.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:48 am
Also, #1, the picture on the right looks like Edward Furlong
October 14th, 2009 at 7:02 am
Another firearms list from Flamehorse. You wouldn’t be trying to start another 600+ comment debate on gun control would you? I think this was a good list if a list of very tragic events can really be called “good”. I agree that Ruby Ridge would’ve been right at home on here too. Police shoot a dog without announcing they are police. They then proceed to kill a young boy and a pregnant mother over the ensuing standoff and the crime the man they were after was charged with was cutting the barrel too short on a few shotguns. Good old BATFE, always ready to severely overreact to the situation.
October 14th, 2009 at 7:11 am
#5) The right to keep and bear arms allowed civilians to assist the police in stopping the maniac. People hear about the gun violence, but seldom hear about the lives being saved by gun ownership as well.
And if your country gets invaded by hostile forces, will you offer those blokes a spot of tea? ‘Cuz we Americans will go “Red Dawn” on their nazi bums.
It’s not the guns. The guns are just a tool for the job. We Americans really have to start looking at the sheer number of crazy bastards we raise here in the United States. ‘Tain’t normal.
October 14th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Best part of the whole list: all the Texans going out to get their guns and lighting up the sniper!
October 14th, 2009 at 7:15 am
Ug-not another gun control debate! Please refer to:
http://listverse.com/2009/10/07/top-10-greatest-firearms-in-history/
Thanks!
October 14th, 2009 at 7:15 am
(20 Teacherman) I also live in the Philly area. I was only 10 during the MOVE and I remember thinking “Wow, the police can do that? The police can drop bombs?”
October 14th, 2009 at 7:17 am
@ames801 (42): Where’s the fun in that? Debates in the comments are what LV’s about
October 14th, 2009 at 7:29 am
Once more it’s “.40 S&W”, not “.40 Sig”.
October 14th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Interesting.
October 14th, 2009 at 7:36 am
Seems to me as if you left out the taser killing of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver Airport…
That was an excess use of force incident that the responding Mounties PLANNED in advance… They had exchanged emails and voicemail to that effect on their way to the incident…
October 14th, 2009 at 7:36 am
@Mark (44): SIGH-good point, Mark. Let the debates begin…GUNS FOR EVERYONE!!
haha
October 14th, 2009 at 7:49 am
@Gav (40) If that was an ironic post then you’re a funny guy. If it wasn’t you’re a stupid guy!
October 14th, 2009 at 7:50 am
Good list and all, but I eventually found it difficult to read due to the constant and unnecessary use of commas. No offense, but in some of the entries it seemed like you were just throwing commas in there for literally no reason. Very distracting.
October 14th, 2009 at 7:52 am
aww, it’s my birthday and i was hoping an interested list would be posted. -.-
October 14th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Like i always say, the bad guys are gona stay strapped no matter what so the good guys should too. Remember the saying: you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:10 am
The problem isn’t guns, it’s societies glorification of violence. A great read into the cause of this is “On Killing” by LTC Dave Grossman.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:12 am
And this list rocked. Flamehorse does it again.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:17 am
Best list I’ve seen in while, congrats!
October 14th, 2009 at 8:49 am
That video was really well acted!
October 14th, 2009 at 9:00 am
The problem isn’t guns, its Americans owning guns. Because Americans are so damn crazy!
Its also funny how in the USA, being pro-guns is lumped in with being conservative, fundamentalist Christian (creationism and all that) and hating poor people (no health care).
October 14th, 2009 at 9:06 am
@krypto092108 (46): How do you plan to use excessive taser force on one lone man? It makes no sense.
Hey Johnson, let’s zap the shit out of a guy today!
Sounds good Smith!
October 14th, 2009 at 9:30 am
fucking americans
October 14th, 2009 at 9:30 am
They say “an armed society is a polite society.” They might want to re-think that.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Excellent list again Flamehorse. Becoming a habit – of the best kind.
I have a vague memory of the University of Texas shooting, but I watched the MOVE fiasco unfold on the news. I still can’t believe that any urban police force would have permission to bomb a residential neighbourhood.
Luckily in Canada, shootouts generally involve Hockey and not armed combatants. Even our old west hasn’t a culture of gun violence. We have our own spree killers; Marc Lepine killed 14 women at the Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal before killing himself, Denis Lortie walked into our parliament building and shot 3 government employees before being TALKED into giving himself up. (note the fellow that did the talking, The Sergeant at Arms, Rene Jalbert, received our Cross of Valour for preventing further loss of life, not to mention his giant cojones).
Too bad this seems to be changing today – we’ve imported a ton of violence – gang warfare is becoming a hazard in our big cities. Asian gangs, Jamaican gangs, and our own homegrown thugs fighting for dominance. It’s unfortunate that they don’t just kill each other – too many civilians caught in the crossfire.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:45 am
@Winston (56): It’s not only the poor – the lower middle and middle class are the most affected by the lack of universal health care. They either have no coverage or such poor HMO coverage that they are denied the cutting edge in medical care. Of course the fact that they have indirectly or directly funded most of the advancements in medical care – the lower middle and middle class provide most of the tax base; the tax base that funds research at Universities and provides grants to private enterprise – is forgotten by those most vehemently opposed to the necessary restructuring of the US health care system.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:56 am
I remember #1 when it happened. Yes it was inspired by the movie HEAT (Awesome movie btw, but should be taken as JUST a movie). Those guys were insane, using AK-47’s with drum magazines and homemade full body armor. The police hit them 100’s of time with not effect. It’s just scary to know though that we have people in this world crazy enough to do shit like this.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:00 am
What you foreigners (and too many of my fellow countrymen) fail to realize is, the American justice system was set up with the built-in “flaw” that sometimes the Bad Guy wins the court battle. This was done to keep the government from exceeding its scope and authority. (Yeah, I know, that idea seems lost now, but it used to count.) Gun ownership was part of this, not only because the US Government was to be a government by the consent of the governed (with a gun quite literally held to its head) but also because the Founders knew full well that criminals, by their very definition, do not obey firearms laws and would arm themselves any way they could. Depriving honest men of guns would do nothing to curb crime or make the honest more safe. Evil people are everywhere. Guns are the johnny-come-lately in the world, anyway. Before WWII, at least, it would be a fair guess that more people were killed by swords, knives, rocks, poisons, a shove out of a window, or blows with a fist than with guns. And people are still being killed “the good old-fashioned way” everywhere on Earth, but since guns are a hot-button “American” issue that liberal pols love the world over love to bring up and talk about, they go on and on about it and ignore everything else.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Yes, another gun debate because the anti-gun people can’t shut-up about it and make their comments. Look, guns are going to stay here in America no matter what the law say. If you make them illegal then only the criminals are going to have them and more people will die because they can’t protect themselves. Most of the shootouts above are with criminals. Yes, innocent people do die because of gun accidents, ect. But to take guns away from responsible, legal owners is like stopping vaccinations because a small percent of people are seriously affected. Excuse me, but the loss of a few children/adults from a vaccine is much better then thousands of others from an outbreak. And no, I am not a gun owner.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:25 am
@ mom424 (61): The top 5% of earners pay roughly 60% of the total income taxes collected. The middle class makes up the largest number of tax payers, but they collectively do not supply the most revenue.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
October 14th, 2009 at 10:36 am
@Winston (56):
Stuff it, Winston, you ignorant #@$%
October 14th, 2009 at 10:55 am
@sofkes (57):
It’s been proven already, and the RCMP are running like hell to cover their collective asses.
How they could come up with the idea to do that, is beyond me… You’re supposed to be educated and mature, but the four that did this weren’t all that terribly…
Incidentally, in your post, that’s pretty much how they did it… Via Email and Cell Phoned Voicemail.
October 14th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Thanks, everyone. I dunno if JF would rather they were shorter. If so, np. There’s some good videos on YouTube of #1, but you had to be there to get the full effect.
October 14th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
What about the Waco, TX incident with the Branch Davidians??
October 14th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
@skin2win (58): Fuck u
October 14th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
@filipinoknight (69):
That one was just plain EXCESS force. And so was Ruby Ridge….
October 14th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
After the Miami shootout, the FBI first went with the 10mm round in an effort to increase “stopping power,” but many of the new recruits (and women) couldn’t handle the recoil, so THEN they went to the .40 S&W, which is a shortened 10mm round. That’s why some deride the .40 S&W as “Short & Weak.”
October 14th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Awesome lists, just had to make an acct cause my town is on this! Newhall, theres a big memorial for those fallen men. Thanks for all the lists over the last few months!
October 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Great list, Flame (as usual, coming from you). Some folks have commented on notable omissions Waco and Ruby Ridge, I’d like to also mention one closer to my neck of the woods: the Symbionese Liberation Army (Patty Hearst’s kidnappers) shootout at their Los Angeles, CA safehouse that killed six members of the cult, including leader Donald DeFreeze.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army#Move_to_Los_Angeles_and_police_shootout
Excerpt:
“Several thousand rounds were reported fired into the home by police and they reported thousands of rounds being fired out of the house by the S.L.A. This remains one of the largest police shootouts in history with a reported total of over 9,000 rounds being fired. Not a single round fired by the SLA managed to find a target.”
October 14th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
@Teacherman (20) and @beerjustice (43)…I’m from Philly too. I was in college when the MOVE thing went down. I also remember thinking, how could the cops do that? Even though the so-called “peaceful” MOVE members had built an illegal bunker on the roof of the rowhome, were stockpiling guns and other weapons, and causing constant disruptions of all sorts in the neighborhood. Members were also guilty of killing a police officer, James Ramp, in the late ’70s, which did not give them any favor in the eyes of Philly cops.
They resisted every peaceful attempt to get them out of the house. And when tear gas was used, MOVE made the first shots. So was the bomb excessive? Hell yes. But did the police and Mayor Goode (who also was in on the decision to use it) think that it would cause such destruction and kill all those inside? Of course not. By the way, according to reports, the MOVE members had ample time to get out of the house with their children after the bombing. They were not killed by the explosion, they were obstinate and decided to stay and were killed by the ensuing fire and smoke.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
@Lowdog (33): Do you have any idea of how chaotic this country would be if guns were outlawed when there are already over 80 million ones in the hands of civilians, you imbecile? Whether the second amendment should have existed or not in the first place is debatable, but abolishing it now that there are so many guns out there is outright idiotic. Do you think people would just hand them in to the authorities?
Constitutions can be changed and it doesn’t take a genius to know that. But what happens after changing them, that’s a completely different story. So next time you plan to use the words “crazy” and “idiots,” just make sure it doesn’t apply to you and your own words.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Like many have already mentioned, I expected to read about Waco, and Ruby Ridge. I also expected to see the St. Valentine’s Massacre and the O.K. Corral.
I remember Item 1 as it occurred on our local news live coverage. The robbers moved very slowly and the whole thing was a bit surreal as it was piped into our living rooms, live.
But life changing and traumatic….just another day in L.A.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
I knew North Hollywood would be #1. I remember watching that live on tv. Those robbers were decked out in so much armor.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
What about the Rangers vs Maple Leafs
October 14th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
A might surprised that Bonnie and Clyde didn’t make the list…pretty gruesome shootout!!!
October 14th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
I hate to say this, but some of the comments on this thread go a long way to prove what I was saying in the *other* gun thread: namely, that the problem with guns in the US is the *gun culture* here, not the “right to bear arms” in and of itself. That right makes a good deal of sense in a certain context, (though not in all contexts) and, after all, it’s American tradition. The right in itself is not offensive or uncivilized.
What IS offensive and uncivilized, however, is the romantic attachment to, and outright love affair with the gun in this country. It’s that over-the-top, seething fascination with the gun that creates almost all of our social problems that are *related* to gun violence (a great deal of ordinary crime, of course, would occur even if all Americans hated guns). It’s threaded throughout our culture and society—not JUST the tradition of owning and bearing arms, but the childish, dangerous, and rather sick obsession with them. Along with that, of course, the glorification of guns and gun violence. And as I say, we can see some of that inherent in this list and particularly in some of the comments following up on it.
The issue of the right to bear arms isn’t going to go away, but neither is the right itself. It will be a LONG time before we ever live in a world where people won’t feel the need or necessity to own a weapon to defend themselves–if we ever get there. Our concern OUGHT to be, rather, toning down the fascination with guns and gun violence (and violence in general, which is also at the root of the problem). How we do this, as a culture, I don’t know. It would require vision and courage on the part of the people who are the most supportive of gun rights, but it would also require those who vehemently oppose gun ownership to step back and realize that a gun-free culture is simply NOT the one that they had the luck of the draw to be born into. Rather than fighting an uphill battle likely to never be won, they should rather work within the parameters of the right to bear arms. Now, as it happens many of them do. The number of people who really want to just outlaw guns, even merely handguns, is a minority in this country, and a fairly tiny one. But by the same token, the NRA and similar-minded groups could step back from their absurd, over-the-top defense of guns and start realizing that their right to keep them is not and never will be seriously threatened in this country. And in turn they could take the attitude that, sure… many people are hunters who enjoy it as a hobby or even a livelihood. Many other people feel the need to protect themselves and should have that right. Other people are gun enthusiasts. It’s the latter that should be our concern. Because we should take the tack that guns are a sometimes necessary evil, but an evil nevertheless, and we should think of them as such—not toys, not “tools,” not innocent devices that just sit there until we pick them up and shoot them. (that’s what they OUGHT to be, but that is NOT what they are, in our culture, by a long shot). They are dangerous and terrible symbols of our still latent savagery as a species. We need them and feel we have a right to them—okay. But if we stop being happy about it—if we stop fucking CUDDLING with the goddamn things—then in time the overall sickness of the love affair with them will die down, and the level of violence will decrease WITH it. Not entirely of course, no—violence will never go away, and neither will the need to defend ourselves against it. But there is no reason for this to be such a *gigantically* violent culture, even if much of the time it’s only a “romantic” kind of love of violence. WE have made this culture that way, and we can bring it DOWN a notch or two.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
*(that’s what they OUGHT to be, but that is NOT what they are, in our culture, by a long shot).
Pardon the accidental pun.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Oh, cool! Another excuse for lame-asses like Slowdog to jump the Americans. I’ll stifle another yawn, if it’s all the same.
I’m with the “Where’s Waco?” crowd, as that happened about an hour south of here, but the one I really expected happened to a couple of Texas natives, Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow. These folks were definitely on the “Fun to Do Bad Things” funslide, but when the law finally caught up with them, the way they took them out was just a little bit excessive. Wikipedia’s got some of the details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_clyde#Death
October 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
re #80 and #77 I don’t think Bonnie and Clyde or St. Valentine’s day were truly “shootouts” more like an ambush.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Bravo Randall.
There are, per capita, as many or more guns in Canada. What is lacking is the gun culture, which is why we don’t see the level of violence. (although that does seem to be changing)
October 14th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Has anyone mentioned the 2 million+ times per year that guns are used to deter crime?
October 14th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Excellent list, FlameHorse.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Thanks, guys. I considered putting the OK Corral shootout on here. I dunno, maybe it could take MOVE’s place.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
What no Waco or Ruby Ridge
October 14th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
@Randall
I do agree that it is the love of guns that is the problem, but I believe that love and fascination is paradoxically held by those who have the least experience with firearms. The friends of mine and myself who grew up in a house that had firearms and learned to shoot at a young age (10 for myself) view firearms as machines for hunting, target practice, and home defense. My wife never had firearms in the house growing up and the first time I took her out to the range she looked at the thing like it was nuclear bomb. On the other side we have my brother in law who was not raised around firearms either. He thinks they’re cool and macho and he loves having them because he can. I think the real key here is education. Once you know how a gun works and how to safely handle one the novelty is gone. It is no longer a status symbol or way to get respect. The firearm instead becomes a tool that is dangerous and must itself be respected.
I disagree in your belief that gun rights have not and will not be challenged or taken away in the US. Powerful lobbying groups exist now with that express purpose such as HCI and the Brady Campaign. There are several current and former politicians who agree with these groups and have enacted bans of differing strength in different areas. DC had a ban for years until the Supreme Court ruled the law unconstitutional. NYC still has very restrictive laws in place. All that said, I do agree with your overall premise and belief that these two opposing groups would do better to find common ground than constantly play tug of war. The same could be said of our political parties for that matter.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
I haven’t heard of a single one of these before.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I remember watching #1 as it happened. It was terribly frightening. We thought they would get away and we thought there was more than two of them. We all stayed inside our houses and watched the TV. There was no telling what those desperate guys would do if they got away!!
October 14th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
@flamehorse (89): Just put as a notable ommission.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
*forgot to put “it” in between “put” and “as”
October 14th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Regarding #7, the “Brinks Armormed Car Shootout”… I wonder if the movie Dead Presidents was based loosely on this?
October 14th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Someone must come up with a word or phrase that conveys the feeling of utter helplessness and terror one feels after hitting the submit button and seeing a spelling/grammatical error at the same time.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
# 47 the killing of that polish man in the Vancouver airport was not planed and , and i hate cops and every thing but i thing they use the right force the man was yelling and throwing a chair around in the airport in post 911 time that is going to get you fuck up , it’s sad but a true fact now
October 14th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
@damien_karras (97): How about “crapdag”? Is that catchy enough?
October 14th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
100
October 14th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Best list I’ve read in ages. Loved it. I just can’t believe how insane some people are.
October 14th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
That was a really good list, and some great comments (some, not all).
October 14th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
@damien_karras (97): Grammerror: A triple entendre comprised of “Grammar,” “error,” and “terror.” The perfect addition to the inventory of the man who thinks he knows everything.
Available at Wal-Mart.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
@Eclecticpoet (91):
“I do agree that it is the love of guns that is the problem, but I believe that love and fascination is paradoxically held by those who have the least experience with firearms.”
Well, I think you’re close to the truth there. But you’re really talking about having a responsible, sober attitude towards weapons, and NOT having such an attitude. And while I see your point about “experience,” as such (and even agree with it to some extent) I don’t think it’s solely a matter of “experience with firearms” that’s the deciding factor here. There ARE people with lots of experience when it comes to handling guns, who are still douchebags about them.
YOUR experience sounds like the sort of “hunting household” atmosphere where guns were viewed responsibly and you were given years of level-headed training and exposure to them. Most of the time, I agree, such households aren’t going to produce the kind of attitude I was referring to; but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking it can’t happen. It’s not so much the circumstance as it is the *people.* Responsible, grown-up, sober, well-balanced people *tend* to mirror themselves in their offspring and in the immediate world around them. And the reverse is true; irresponsible, childish, out-of-balance people will often produce a mirror image of *themselves* too.
The sportsman and his/her family who hunts and fishes and shoots at the target range aren’t the main focus of what I was talking about. SOME of those people DO end up nutty and violent and part of the problem. But the larger origin for this sick gun culture of ours lies with the sort of people who think of violence as a glamorous thing that they wish to be a part of, albeit usually only vicariously.
“On the other side we have my brother in law who was not raised around firearms either. He thinks they’re cool and macho and he loves having them because he can.”
Right, exactly. That’s the sort I’m talking about. Now, he may not be a violent person, per se. But that kind of worship/fascination with guns–that sense that they lend you “manhood” and so on, ad nauseum—that is a KIND of culture of violence even if the individual himself or herself isn’t *really* particularly a violent person. They feed into the aggregate, overall cultural attitude.
When you start seeing a gun as an extension of yourself, that’s when it’s crossed over in some form, and the sickness isn’t in the gun, of course, it’s in the person, and in turn, the society and culture that continues to feed that AND feeds OFF of it.
“I think the real key here is education.”
Well education can certainly only help, yes. That’s essentially what I was saying—that we need to be more serious about this as a society, a culture—that the NRA and such could admit that, “look. These things are highly dangerous and are not some meta-physical embodiment of you as a human being or your “pride” or “manhood.” They aren’t ‘beautiful,’ they’re deadly, and it’s a disgusting shame that we have to have them, just as it is a disgusting shame that we allow our world to be such a shithole sometimes, and fight wars, etc. etc. They’re not “good.” But let’s be grown up about it and realize that we need them. At the same time, let’s also be grown up about it in the sense that we treat them the way they should be treated–as highly dangerous tools and nothing more.”
“Once you know how a gun works and how to safely handle one the novelty is gone. It is no longer a status symbol or way to get respect. The firearm instead becomes a tool that is dangerous and must itself be respected.”
Precisely. What you’re talking about, actually, isn’t simply *education,* but rather, PROPER education.
“I disagree in your belief that gun rights have not and will not be challenged or taken away in the US.”
Well, I’m sorry, but you’re just falling into the same trap that the “gun crowd” always falls into.
I mean, please. The NRA is one of the single most powerful lobbying organizations in this country. It is vocal, vehement in its refusal to entertain any challenge to gun rights, and never rests on this issue. There is NOTHING on the opposite side to compare in the slightest.
Up until here you were making great sense. But when you start this stuff, you flip over into a kind of paranoia.
“Powerful lobbying groups exist now with that express purpose such as HCI and the Brady Campaign.”
PLEASE. The HCI and the Brady Campaign POWERFUL? (Aren’t they in fact the same organization?) That’s an overstatement if there ever was one. I mean, it’s almost laughably an overstatement.
This is simply fear mongering. The HCI is a puny force compared to the lobbying power and funding of the NRA. Please.
Just because an organization EXISTS that wants to curtail gun ownership, that doesn’t make that organization POWERFUL.
“There are several current and former politicians who agree with these groups and have enacted bans of differing strength in different areas.”
Yes, but I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t believe that assault weapons should be legal. I don’t see the need. I feel that allowing private citizens to own such things simply plays back into the gun culture I was talking about.
Where handguns are concerned, I don’t like them either; but I feel less a sense of anethema about them. The fact is that some communities are dealing with a terrible amount of brutal violence, and one way to reduce this sicko gun culture I’m talking about IS to get rid of the guns. Would I be in favor of that across the board, all over the country? No. But look at this way: you say guns are tools. Well, in that same sense, so are cars, aren’t they? They serve different functions but nevertheless… anyway, a car, properly handled, is a benign thing. It gets you from one place to another. A gun, properly handled, is–well, I won’t say “benign,” because it’s not–but neither is automatically a thing of evil and malignancy either. However, a car, improperly handled, can be a deadly weapon. Same goes for a gun.
Now… we have speed limits on our highways because we want to ensure that people don’t risk their own lives or the lives of others with reckless driving. AND we have SLOWER speed limits in large cities and so on, because they are more congested and crowded and if we just let people drive at high speeds around the streets, there’d pretty quickly be a lot of deaths everywhere.
The same principle clearly applies to guns. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with limiting the use and availability of such “tools” in circumstances and environments where they might otherwise lead to more danger and death.
Now, you will say that there is a constitutional right to bear arms but no such right to own or drive a car. But not so fast.
We don’t allow kids to take guns to schools; is that an “infringement” of rights? We remove the right to guns from people who have been proven insane (at least some states do) or former felons, etc. Most states don’t allow people to carry concealed weapons. And so on.
The constitution does not define what is meant by the term “to bear arms,” and neither does it define what is meant by “shall not be infringed.” i.e., it does not define what qualifies as infringement.
The principle, in limiting the WAY a car is used, is the same as that in which we limit the use/possession of weapons. There are circumstances where it is arguably allowed.
Of course, the thing is, we have to argue about that, and each generation gets to figure it out anew.
“DC had a ban for years until the Supreme Court ruled the law unconstitutional. NYC still has very restrictive laws in place.”
Yup. I’m a New Yorker and grateful for the gun laws of NYC every day.
I would NOT and never would be in favor of extending those laws to ALL communities across the country. That would not be appropriate. Just as a nationwide speed limit of 25mph would not be appropriate.
Nor, of course, would I agree with banning guns entirely.
“All that said, I do agree with your overall premise and belief that these two opposing groups would do better to find common ground than constantly play tug of war. The same could be said of our political parties for that matter.”
Well, yes. True.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@damien_karras (97): Someone must come up with a word or phrase that conveys the feeling of utter helplessness and terror one feels after hitting the submit button and seeing a spelling/grammatical error at the same time.
Synchronous execution committal coital realization syndrome.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Have you seen the picture of Emil from #1 on wikipedia after the gunfight with his mask off? It is the ultimate expression of a fucking badass. The guy was sick, but he knew what he liked.
I’m going to honest with you: after reading this list, I want to die in a gunfight.
October 14th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
@Randall
“PLEASE. The HCI and the Brady Campaign POWERFUL? (Aren’t they in fact the same organization?)”
Very true. My mistake.
@Maggot
Awesome phrase!
October 14th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
“There are, per capita, as many or more guns in Canada. What is lacking is the gun culture, which is why we don’t see the level of violence.”
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. The problem is NOT the “gun culture” as, I presume, is exemplified by all those 2nd Amendment types. Rather, it is particular subcultures which are responsible for most of the violence. Exclude them from the statistics and America’s rate of gun violence is the same as Canada’s.
But then, a little reflection ought to have helped you avoid your error: Remember how back in 1960 many high schools had gun clubs and kids brought their rifles to school for target practice? All peaceful-like?
October 14th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Speaking of audacity and the NoHo shootout, The mother of Materseanu sued the city of L.A. for excessive force saying that he wouldn’t be around to support his kids. The case was dismissed quickly.
Also though the officers were rightly treated as Heroes the sheer horror of it all was extremely damaging to many of their psyches. At least 3 of the officers involved have committed suicide since 1997.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
all u limeys who dissaprove of guns, this is america, we kill people and piggies, oink oink. thats how we do. click clack
October 14th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
@Woyzeck (106): I usually don’t say stuff like this, not because I’m a gentle, kindhearted person, but because most of the time I just don’t care one way or the other. But you left the door so wide open, and no one else is going through.
Ahem:
It is my sincere hope that you do die in a gunfight, after expending all your ammunition but one round, hitting no one, and then suffering and then being eaten by a lion because your gun jammed.
I don’t mean mauled by a lion. I mean he kills you, and then eats you up, and then sometime the next day, you emerge from the rectum of a panthera leo.
Put that in your blunt and smoke it.
Yeah………I said blunt.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Are you people Canadian? Making comments about guns per capita and the level of violence is the same etc. What a load of rubbish. I don’t care if you want to own guns for what ever reasons but to compare Canada to the US is ridiculous. I grew up in a family where not one single male owned a gun nor did any of my friends and their families nor any associates coworkers.
All my American friends have guns and had guns from a very young age. Is America a safer place to live than Canada ?
I feel safe yet so many of my American pals don’t.
Why don’t you just admit the truth that owning guns has nothing to do with protecting yourself or the constitution or any of that other stuff
You just get off on guns. Period !!
October 14th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
@Woyzeck (113):
“allergic to the sun”?
“Lick up my piss,” however, is brilliant. And takes me back to when my dear old mom used to say that to me, when I was but a lad.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
@pst314 (108):
You’re confused as to what is meant by “gun culture.”
The problem very much IS the gun culture in the US, because it is PREDOMINANT.
And your statistical witches brew there makes about as much sense as a lizard in a bowl of tomato soup. “Take out the violent subsets and America’s gun violence stats equal Canada’s”? Lemme try to wrap my head around that… I’ll sleep on it and see if it makes any more logical sense in the morning… but I’m sure it won’t.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
Am I making sense myself? Sorry folks, just crawled back from the house of some friends, and I’m filled with vino.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Google Mark James Robert Essex, an amazing shootout that for some reason has been largely forgotten. It seems to meet the criteria for reckless disregard for life. It is no better than what you have here but could be added as an 11th.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
@Woyzeck (113):
“Also, you have no PENIS.”
Why is it that you felt the need that this needed to be added in there? I mean, it feels as if you go through all of the trouble to think up clever uses for vulgar words and then, as an after thought, resort to something a middle school kid would say? I mean seriously? What if flamehorse, not saying it’s true cuz I don’t know, just HAPPENED to be a girl. Then you’d technically be right and you’d look like an idiot.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
#1 is just awesome.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Gents, I hate to say it, but we as Americans will not be invaded in the near future if at all. We have the third largest population in the world, the fourth largest country by area, the largest economy plus the richest defense force (not exactly the best). For anyone to invade and rule our country is ridiculous (until China invents their destructo-deathbots).
So how can the pistol you carry in your glove box equal defence against tyrrany? It doesn’t.
As I said before, a good general rule is that if you love guns, you also tend to be fundamentalist Christian, hate poor people, love greedy capitalism (thanks for the credit crunch guys!) and while I’m at it a bit racist, homophobic and anti-environment. An extreme stereotype I know but have a think…
October 14th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
While the list is interesting, especialy the guys who were shot umpteen times it is a sad one.
Not refering to any specific comments above some of which are good and some in my eyes stupid, this list demonstrates why guns should only be in the hands of the military, or possibly specialist police units though I have my doubts about that.
As an ex soldier and someone brought up with guns all my life I have only one conclusion. Civilians should not carry guns, that includes me nowadays.
If you have the weapons you have a much greater chance of using them than if yo do not. OK thats an obvious I guess.
While I strongly agree with the right to self defense I feel that a culture which has little control of firearms is going into a downwards spiral in this regard, he has a gun, I need a bigger gun scenario.
I like guns, enjoy shooting but do not carry one, even an air pistol can kill, never mind an assault rifle.
Do understand the American position about fire arms but think it is fundamentaly flawed in this day and age.
When Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane, Scotland murdered the childern laws were enacted to try to prevent this happening again, in the US and South Africa for example, it is the childern who commit massacres as well as individuals.
A final thought, if I went to the US, I would probably get a gun and an assault rifle which I am comfortable with, as there are so many gun weilding lunatics there I would feel a need to defend myself.
This is in no way ment to be a critisim of some peoples deeply held views it is just how I see matters.
If you live by the Sword you will die by the Sword.
If you live by the Gun, enough said.
October 14th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Couple of typos in my above post, please forgive and dont shoot me.
October 15th, 2009 at 1:04 am
That is so sad that the Texas sniper had a brain tumor. What a tragedy. I’ve known of this incident most of my life, but did not know why he went crazy.
October 15th, 2009 at 1:34 am
Will somebody shoot that loudmouth ass Randall.
October 15th, 2009 at 6:00 am
I would point out that prior to 1932 Canada had exactly the same gun control legislation as the USA – absolutely none. The murder rate was less than one-tenth of that of the USA. At present the US murder rate for stabbings is much higher than the Canadian stabbing rate, ditto for the blunt object murder rate. Since knives and baseball bats are unregulated on both sides of our border it is not weapon availability that determines the amount of violence. It is the degree of acceptance of violence
in a culture that determines violence.
Note that in Canada at present 90% or more of all gun
violence is committed by gangs from immigrant cultures in our large cities.
Also note that every able bodied Swiss male between 18 and 55 must by law have a military issue assault rifle and a minimum amount of ammunition in his home and shoot a minimum score every year as his duty to his country. The Swiss murder rate is among the lowest in the world.
I suggest that you read “The Samurai, The Mountie and The Cowboy” (I’ve forgotten the author) and “Point Blank” by Prof. Gary Kleck as a start.
October 15th, 2009 at 6:09 am
The norco bank robbery sounds like something out of a comedic action movie… 33 cruisers and a helicopter— wow
October 15th, 2009 at 6:22 am
@renegade01 (118):
No, that would still be funny.
October 15th, 2009 at 6:24 am
@Randall (127):
No, I agree. It would be funny. However he’d still look like an idiot for it.
October 15th, 2009 at 6:50 am
@Randall (116): Now see, Randall-it’s comments like this that make me think if we were in the same geographical area we would have one of the same circle of friends.
October 15th, 2009 at 7:17 am
@Randall (82): You know, Randall, when I noticed my son developing that same fascination with guns, pointing his toy guns at people, etc., and not wanting to listen when I told him to stop and explained to him why; even going so far as to tell me “No” on one occasion, I decided to cure him of his fascination with guns.
So, I did a Google image search for gun wounds and fatalities, then made him sit there and look at each image, full size. When we got to one hundred, I asked him if he still thought “guns were cool” or if he still thought it was ok to shoot people like they do in video games. His response was a resounding no. I then told him that next time I would see about taking him to a morgue, to see the corpse of someone who’d died from gun violence, and listen and watch the reaction of the family.
So far, it’s been a year, and the only thing to do with guns that he enjoys is his video games, and less often now to boot.
October 15th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Wow check out this video, at 6:37 the bad guy clearly raises his arms surrendering, it seems like soon after he then proceeds to shoot himself because he stops moving at 6:46, the officers must have noticed this and then proceed to leave cover.
October 15th, 2009 at 8:48 am
You crazy Americans and your guns.
October 15th, 2009 at 9:00 am
@psychosurfer (132):
The guy who surrendered at 6:37 was the second robber, he was still alive at the end of the video. The one who shot himself does so in the first 30 seconds of the tape.
October 15th, 2009 at 9:39 am
#5
It’s NOT called the Austin Tower, we here in Austin call it the UT Tower.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Jesus Christ!!!! Get a grip people. Alright, lets outlaw guns. Nobody has a gun. Then some asshole goes on a killing spree with a knife. No problem, let’s just outlaw knives. Nobody has knives. I go out and beat some prick to death with a poodle. What now?
It’s not the weapon. It’s the asshole standing behind the weapon! Stop treating these criminals with kid gloves when they break the law and make the punishment fit the crime. You kill….you die.
Thank you and have a wonderful day.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am
@Beelzebubba (132): I go out and beat some prick to death with a poodle. What now?
That would depend on if you had a license to carry a concealed poodle or not.
October 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
@Tex (131): Sorry. I don’t speak Texian.
October 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
@Moloch1123 (128): Wow, what a direct and effective way to deal with the problem. I´m impressed.
@psychosurfer (129): Oh crap, that video is hard to watch. You can see the first guy shoot himself in 0:27 (and the little puff of smoke in 0:28).
October 15th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Beelzebubba: By your same logic then we should allow average citizens to own and carry anything that can cause death without any standards? Lets sell tanks at the local car lot! Heck lets sell nukes at the corner store! The point is not to outlaw anything that can cause death. The point is that it must be decided if something causes death too easily and conveniently and to what purpose.
October 15th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
For instance, knives obviously should not be made illegal. However, (in Canada at least) certain types of knives, such as switchblades, are not legal as their only conceivable use is one of violence.
October 15th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
@Spiff17 (139): That ain’t fair! I pick my toenails with a switchblade!
October 15th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Flamehorse: Well maybe the government needs to be made aware of the toenail picking usefulness of the switchblade and they will deem it a tool rather than a weapon! I’ll have to start a lobby group!
October 15th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
ps Excellent list as usual flamehorse! I plan on submitting a list soon once I find some free time for it. Randall’s standard of perfection has seen to it that I’m going to have to spend weeks editing to appease my new found typo paranoia.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
@Beelzebubba (134): I totally agree that all poodles should be outlawed in the United States. Send them back to France where they belong.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
One of the main reasons why I refuse to own a gun or to allow one in my house is the fact that many criminals use stolen guns while committing crime. If I owned a gun, and it were to be stolen, I would feel responsible for any people who died or were wounded by that gun. I also know myself well enough to know that if I were face-to-face with an intruder, it is much more likely that I would be overcome and lose the gun than that I would actually fire a weapon at another human being.
The logic of the first part of that statement is also why I refuse to buy marijuana, even though I think it is fairly benign and probably should be legalized. With pot being illegal, there are too many lives being shattered to get that drug to me – I couldn’t live with the idea that I was resposible for that in any way. I can easily wait until it is legalized, or learn to do without it.
My philosophy of life, like the physicians’ oath, begins with: “First, do no harm.”
October 16th, 2009 at 5:49 am
@Spiff17 (142): You’re welcome.
October 16th, 2009 at 8:21 am
@GTT (137): Thank you,I don´t know why I didn´t see that earlier, now I get the whole picture that matches with the explanation from flamehorse.
October 16th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Waco Texas? How can that not be listed?
October 16th, 2009 at 10:18 am
something about chevy chase
October 16th, 2009 at 11:07 am
@Spiff17 (142):
Randall readily excuses typos, as he hates nitpicking anal douchebags. Sloppy, shitty, awkward, nonsensical writing, however, he will not forgive.
And yes, I do know that I’m referring to myself in the third person. I am that fucking awesome.
Truthfully, if you’re gonna submit something for all the world to read, you’d think you’d put your best effort into it and make sure everything’s correctly spelt and that all your punctuation is where it oughta be. But above, don’t write like a retard. That’s the main thing.
Seriously, would you go on a date with Megan Fox looking like a piece of crap, in a pizza-grease-stained t-shirt and torn-up jeans? Well maybe YOU would, but not me.
Actually, I shouldn’t use Megan as an example; it’ll just encourage her.
Seriously, Megan… yer great an’ all, honey, but it was just one of those things, you know? Now please let it go and STOP texting me.
October 16th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
@ Spiff17
“The point is not to outlaw anything that can cause death. The point is that it must be decided if something causes death too easily and conveniently and to what purpose.”
You missed MY point entirely. I’ll admit that hands around a neck could cause a pretty easy death. Nobodies going to outlaw hands, I get that.
My point was education and accountability. Or that’s what I was trying for.
Instead of screaming about oulawing weapons (of any sort), lets put some effort into education and accountability. Educate people concerning actions and consequences and then hold them accountable when those consequences are ignored or simply not held in any regard.
You understand guns can kill? Yes. Good.
You further understand that if you kill someone (maliciously), you die? Yes. Good.
Better?
October 16th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Good list !!! Probably the longest on listverse….
October 16th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (99): I prefer “flubjab”.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
I see that Randall is still off his medications, thinking he lives in the real world, pookas and all.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Randall: No I agree, the accountability is good! Lets keep the quality high! My complaints in the past were regarding the delivery, not the message. But I’ve come to a greater understanding of your role on this site and now for the most part I just find you entertaining. You must understand that you’ve created a certain pressure for perfection? Which I in no way am condemning. Keep it up. I was simply pointing out I’m nervous to post anything for fear of the lashing I may receive! But I likely will anyways if I can find the time.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Beelzebubba: I guess I did miss your point. But if your point is education and accountability then I agree wholeheartedly with your point.
I just didn’t agree with the point that if we outlaw guns on the grounds that they kill people then we might as well outlaw everything that can kill people. I’ve heard that defense of guns before and I just think its a bit of a cop out. Like lets legalize heroin because you can get high off of glue anyways.
October 16th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
@Randall (149): Randall hun, now I think you´ve gone off the deep end… First, the third person reference and then the Megan Fox delusion? I thought she was gay for some reason…
Or maybe it´s just last night´s vino talking?
October 16th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
What? no WWII shootout???????
This list6 is nothing
October 16th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Gotta love Texans!
Outlawing guns wouldn’t stop criminals from having them.
October 16th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
@#27.You Americans and your guns. What’s that about?
It’s about kicking ass and taking name’s.. O and winning war’s it’s just what we do best.. You throw a rock, We Unleash hell.
GO AMERICA!
October 16th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
@ Saber25
Can you read?
October 16th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
@ Everyone wanting to ban guns
GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE….. People kill People or Bullets kill People the gun just takes a bad rap for it
, Should we outlaw crossbows too? I think NOT!
October 16th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
@deeeziner (152): Humm… how about “crappyflub-dagjabber”? Or “flubbycrap-jabdagger”?
October 17th, 2009 at 5:37 am
Love this site. North Holywood. It was my first business trip. I was the poedunk knob from the Midwest (Twin Cities). Fresh faced, just out of college. I was working for a firm trying to build relationships with banks. The woman I was meeting worked for BOA and suggested we meet at that branch that morning. I was frantic because I had to be at LAX to catch my flight by 10:30 that Friday. I drive over from a downtown hotel, and all the police cars, I was thinking WTF, before that became part of the nomenclature. I turned back, stopped at a gas station to to re-fuel the rental. The clerk had a small color TV he was watching. In a quick motion he flipped the screen to my line of sight. He was going crazy saying “This is just down the road!” By the time I got to LAX every bar was packed with people watching. It was unreal. Made my flight. Still a poedunk. Glad no innocents died, I also feel bad for that robber dying on the street. You want to say he deserved it, but that was brutal.
October 17th, 2009 at 11:22 am
@GiantFlyingRobo (162):I’m down with that…but I’ll likely abbreviate to cf-dj, or fc-jd….which looks like a typo anyhow. Hmmmmm….Guess I’ll stick to a simple “CRAP!!!”, followed with the sheepish posted apology.
October 17th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Flamehorse, I do so enjoy your lists, but I feel like you are building us up for something. So are you?
October 17th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
@GTT (156):
Whaaaaa? Where am I?
October 17th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
@HandyMandy (165): Yeah, the first bad list I hand in. Sooner or later…:)
October 19th, 2009 at 10:26 am
The NEwhall shootout… gave me a headache just trying to keep up with wtf happened…lol. Crazy. Anyone feel like drawing this out as a cartoon or something?
October 20th, 2009 at 6:03 am
@Flamehorse – As many people that read LV, someone would like the “bad” list you post. I’ve never seen a bad list on here yet. My version of boring is someone else’s version of fantastic.
October 21st, 2009 at 4:46 pm
and this is why i hate guns and the idiots that own them…
October 23rd, 2009 at 8:34 pm
I saw the 1997 shooting on tv it was amazing
October 28th, 2009 at 7:03 am
Always in America.
November 1st, 2009 at 5:46 pm
I saw the 1997 shootout also. Good list.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:54 am
#1, no civie or police deaths despite all that firepower. That is nothing short of a miracle indeed.
November 5th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I was an elementary school student a few blocks way from the #1 shootout the day it happened- I still remember being so confused as to why they wouldn’t let us out for lunch!
January 19th, 2010 at 9:09 am
I was in that neighborhood when the North Hollywood shootout was going on. I was trying to get home from a computer store (Fry’s). The police had streets closed off all over the place. I went miles out of my way, traffic was a nightmare. I had no idea what was going on until I finally got home and turned on the TV.
January 28th, 2010 at 10:52 am
Wow,a gr8 list.
no.2 reminds me of 3 leaf clover in GTA IV.