Top 10 Things You Should Never Discuss Online
- Published November 18, 2009 by Aaron - 1,095 Comments
The late comedian George Carlin made a good living on his famous “Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television” monologue. In the monologue, he details seven particular words that one could never use on television (or radio either) regardless of intent or context. Use of any of those seven words would (and will) get you bleeped out. Use of enough of them at one sitting and the FCC (in America) will have you up on fines or worse.
Well, Mr. Carlin’s seven dirty words won’t usually cause an eye blink on the Internet; however, some topics are tacitly taboo regardless of the site one is surfing or the point one is trying to make. The introduction of any of these verboten topics into a comment stream, blog post, or general web discussion will invariably result in the immediate cessation of whatever was being discussed and the explosion of a full fledged flame war. These particular topics are so incendiary because they have little or no perceivable middle ground. One must chose a side and any refusal to chose a side will usually result in taking fire from BOTH sides.
Pretty much all of these topics have been around for years, but none of them show the slightest sign of becoming any less inflammatory. If anything, the rapidity of communication available via the web has polarized these issues even more. They are all grenades and a wise man once said, “when the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.” So, without further ado and with apologies to the late Mr. Carlin, Ten Topics You Cannot Discuss on the Internet (without serious drama following shortly thereafter).
Everyone has an opinion about the Middle East. It may be about the Palestinian State; it may be about oil; it may be about Israel; but that little area of land is blood-soaked for a reason. Trying to talk about the Middle East will almost always end up in a fight because no one has been able to come up with a win-win solution to the area’s problems in a few thousand years. Any solution requires one side or the other to give ground and so far, no one has decided to. This mentality carries over into the supporters of the different positions. Israel is evil. The Palestinians are evil. The Jews are evil. The Arabs are evil. Round and round it goes. Again, no middle ground.
Can’t be discussed rationally. No way, no how. To some it’s a perfectly acceptable lifestyle. To others, it is anathema. It is genetic. It is a choice. It can be “cured”. Once a homosexual, always a homosexual. Nature – or nurture. What’s really upsetting is no middle ground is usually available. If one happens to be a live and let live type of person, he or she is still in some danger of being painted negatively by the other side. One thing that makes this particular topic so explosive is homosexuality is much more mainstream now than it used to be. To some, that is a positive and sought after development. For others, it is a sign that the apocalypse is at hand.
Arguably the most discussed man in all of history. His life traditionally splits the dating system of the Western World into BC and AD. He is also probably the single most divisive person in all history. He was a good man and a great teacher but nothing else. He was God in the flesh. He never existed. Strangely, many people of all stripes who can rationally and calmly discuss the existence of God devolve into name calling and mudslinging once Jesus is brought up. Jesus is another guaranteed firestorm starter.
“Can’t we all just get along?” isn’t really an option. Things are better than in the past in some instances, but in others, not so much. Regardless, trying to talk about it reasonably is nearly impossible. Moderate voices are usually shouted down. Even in the 21st century some people still believe in the superiority of one race over another, despite the fact that, organically, race is a myth. We have ethnicities, yes, but race is an artificial construct based almost solely on the amount of melanin in a person’s skin and the size and layout of the facial bones and musculature. We’ve come a long way, but a long way remains and to discuss it reasonably is difficult. Cries of discrimination start coming in from all sides and before anyone knows it, the “discussion” is in the crapper.
Pro-Choice. Pro-Life. Anti-choice. Baby. Fetus. When does birth begin? I have read more than once that civil debate on abortion is difficult in person and absolutely impossible online. The reasons are plain. It’s a topic that is naturally polarizing. It pits men against women, one religion against another, freedom against bondage, and for some it is literally a matter of life and death. The most divisive facet of the abortion debate, however, is the tendency for both sides to apply black and white thinking to a subject with way too many gray questions to fit into those pigeonholes. The result in “real life” can be crazy mad protests all the way up to clinic bombings. Online isn’t much better as otherwise nice, civil, rational people go from zero to pissed off in less than a second. Too visceral. Avoid at all costs.
This is mostly an issue for Americans and there is a certain amount of politics involved, but even those who live in countries with very strict gun control, or no gun control (and little concern about it) are sure to weigh in on this controversial topic. It is, of course, all the more controversial for Americans because it goes to the very core of the nation – the constitution and the right (or not) to bear arms. We have already had at least one incident of comment war over this topic.
The Holocaust is ALWAYS a fire starter. It never happened. It happened but the numbers are inflated. It happened but why is it so important. The Holocaust is about the Jews. The Holocaust is about all the targeted populations of the Nazis. The Holocaust didn’t get the job done. One reason this topic is so toxic is enough people are around who were eyewitnesses to make a strong case one way, but enough people are around who must rely on second hand information to be subject to influence by deniers. Either way, almost NOTHING elicits the strong feelings that the Holocaust does, and if one makes the mistake of saying one doesn’t care either way, well, god help you.
Of all the topics on this list, politics is the one that seems to have shown the most recent increase in rancor (though not on Listverse – item 6 takes the cake there). In the US we have the Republicans and Democrats, and in many other countries (such as the UK and most of the Commonwealth there is a similar variation of partisan political parties. For the diehard political pundit, his party is his team. It’s his family. It’s a mountain he’s ready to die on. I’ve seen people get physically sick upon learning “their” candidate had lost an election. The saddest part of this polarization is the gridlock it creates in governments. After all, the politicians know about the splits and they’ll pull out all the stops to add to their camp so they can stay in office.
Evolution or Creation? The books that have been written on this subject for either position could probably fill a modest library. Each side has reams of data and boatloads of facts to back up its position and each side roundly thinks the other side’s data and facts are so much excrement. The worst part is, again, no middle ground. If one tries to adopt a position that incorporates both sides, each side will rip him or her to shreds. When the origins of man come up, the gloves come off.
More people have died in the name of God, whatever name that may be, than pretty much all other causes combined. Christian. Muslim. Buddhist. Atheist. Scientologist. No matter the stripe, a surefire way to get EVERYONE mad is to disparage another’s religion or lack thereof. It’s simple, really. Religion or, spirituality if you will, is probably the most intensely personal part of anyone’s being and that includes those who reject religion and spirituality altogether. Also, religion is a family affair. When someone feels his religion is under attack, that attack immediately becomes personal and familial. One push leads to a counter push and the atomic explosion goes off. To make matters worse, some religions have as an integral part a command to proselytize. Also, some people, not from a sense of command, but of desire, will want to proselytize. When that happens, your intensely personal experience collides with another person’s intensely personal experience and the result is a perfect storm of firestorm.
So, there it is. The ten topics you cannot discuss online (without serious drama following shortly thereafter). A word for the wise: it might pay to discuss the reasons behind this inability to discuss certain topics without a war, rather than discussing the merits of the items mentioned specifically. Let’s keep this more civil than the last list that mentioned one of the topics here.


























1 Ao0w
November 18th, 2009 at 1:39 am
First…?
……..
Awesome list
2 Joeap02
November 18th, 2009 at 1:44 am
This list fails. These topics are what keeps the internet entertaining. Shockingly bad argument for the origins of man. Evolution is a scientific fact, it’s ok for you to take sides some times . . .
3 shawnlaura2011
November 18th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Number 2!!!! I’m the first loser! Awesome list, and quite true.
I would like to take this opportunity to discuss all the homosexual middle easteners who keep getting abortions – bring on the litany of disparaging remarks!
4 Jack
November 18th, 2009 at 1:50 am
Very true, and I hope all the residents of LV will heed your advice as regards to the comments (probably not :s). Good list, I enjoyed it!
5 thunderchicken3000
November 18th, 2009 at 1:52 am
@ shawnlaura (3) I’m totally accepting of homosexual middle easterners who keep getting abortions — it’s just those Darwin-loving, gun control-supporting, Jesus-hating Republicans who really get my goat. They are totally unbearable and really ruin a good neighborhood.
6 sad muso
November 18th, 2009 at 1:52 am
Tis a very interesting list, good work!
7 Tarachowski
November 18th, 2009 at 1:53 am
Loved this list,but surely the race relations one and the holocaust aren’t that widely polarizing and argued over? I would’ve thought only a very small minority would be on the segregation/denying side, but who knows, can’t say I discuss them much! Maybe i’m just naive
Great list xx
8 lolpuppies
November 18th, 2009 at 1:53 am
This list is about firestarters, it technically says you can talk about them, but dont expect it to end quickly.
Evolution isn’t fact, it’s patchy at best.
LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
9 corinthian0430
November 18th, 2009 at 1:55 am
JESUS! you guys are so gay! Yo momma is a black republican arab who shoudda gotten an abortion when she conceived your evil Nazi ass.
There should be another holocaust aimed at you jew homo-loving, man-came-from-monkey idiot religious zealots!
SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL!
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did i miss anything out?
10 thunderchicken3000
November 18th, 2009 at 1:57 am
Corinthian (9), you forgot gun control. Please try again.
11 Rand0m
November 18th, 2009 at 1:57 am
Gravity isn’t a fact, it’s patchy at best.
Heliocentrism isn’t a fact, it’s patchy at best.
12 Tereso
November 18th, 2009 at 1:58 am
Joeap02 (#2) is right. There is nothing to discuss about evolution, it’s scientific fact.
Good list, though. The title could also be “Top 10 Things You Should Never Discuss anywhere if you don’t want to waste your time and never reach an agreement and risk to lose a friend”
13 kendracoquia
November 18th, 2009 at 1:59 am
In spite of the title, it’s a very SAFE list. It’s okay to choose sides. Religion will never save us.
14 cryan
November 18th, 2009 at 2:00 am
the u.s should invade the middle east, take their oil and send all the arabs to madagascar
15 tremblingfingers
November 18th, 2009 at 2:01 am
But where else but the internet and the www can one discuss on such matter, anonymously, without fearing someone might punch you in the face?
16 Captain Funtime
November 18th, 2009 at 2:01 am
we await the shit storm, you know by even mentioning these things people will have to cite their opinion on them? thunderchicken, i imigine you’ll get some
17 Luka
November 18th, 2009 at 2:03 am
Interesting list… some of the comments are quite funny
18 thunderchicken3000
November 18th, 2009 at 2:04 am
Captain Funtime — I would never discuss such delicate subject matter online.
19 Captain Funtime
November 18th, 2009 at 2:05 am
i keep refreshing the page waiting for some badass comment that just going to kick it all off…….it’ll make the morning go quicker while im sat here grinding away at the desk.
20 Maccie
November 18th, 2009 at 2:09 am
Er, Nice list… No further comment on any of the topics.
(I’m learning!)
21 Taash
November 18th, 2009 at 2:10 am
Good list Aaron, but i cosign Joeap02…These things make the internet interesting, and its safe to “express” your opinion to people you dont know, incase they decide to bomb your house coz you’re married to a black guy, love gays, kill unborn children and converted to Islam!
22 brosiusjb
November 18th, 2009 at 2:10 am
So very, very true. All of it.
23 Taash
November 18th, 2009 at 2:18 am
I think the reason people dont like discussing some of these topics is because they dont want they’re minds changed on topics that they feel make them who they are. For example I’m a Christian South African man( white Afrikaaner). I dont want anyone telling me that all races are created equally,its ok to shag a man and Jesus really wasnt the son of God. What it means is that everthing i’ve known for 30 years of my life is based on lies. Its the uncertainty of ones self. Thats perhaps for the more conservative people and doesnt really touch on every subject on the list.
24 Bearglove
November 18th, 2009 at 2:21 am
10. The place is doomed to suffer eternity in conflict. It will not end until the last human being has died.
9. Genetic, but how open you are about your homosexuality is still a choice. A bad choice to hide who you are, but still a choice.
8. Never existed. Period. Just another in the long list of pagan deities-his followers just happened to gain a ball-hold on the ruler of the western world.
7. Racism will always exist, in one form or another. We are in the right place(in most of the world), but getting rid of discrimination person-to-person will never happen.
6. Women will(and do) get abortions regardless of legality or professionals to perform the procedure. Being for/against is completely null.
5. Guns in the hands of an educated and well-trained person are a wonderful thing to have access to, but the general population is ignorant.
4. Happened, was a horrible thing, wasn’t just about the Jews.
3. Polarization in politics leads to bull-headed decisions and hurts the system more then it can ever help(look at the health-care debate in America over the last couple of months)(neither side has it right, and only if they would swallow their shit and cooperate can anything useful come of this fiasco).
2. Evolution happened/continues to happen. It makes perfect sense when concerned with the animal world(and has been observed), but the detractors are merely arguing against evolution because they are religious and feel that it takes away any grain of truth from their dogmas(it doesn’t).
1. Religion is deeply personal. It is unique to each and every individual on this planet. The problem is our social tendencies lend themselves to group-identification, and the easiest way to group common superstitions/observable facts(changing of seasons, animals migration/hibernation/mating patterns) is by giving everything a name that everyone in your neighborhood/village agrees on.
25 nuriko
November 18th, 2009 at 2:22 am
hhhmmm…
26 Joeap02
November 18th, 2009 at 2:22 am
I must add, people who want to learn more on these subjects turn to the internet. It’s invaluable to have people’s insight on these matters, and where else is there such a demonstrable amount of easily accessible info. I stand by thinking that these topics are the best topics of discussion anywhere, most of all the internet.
27 loop
November 18th, 2009 at 2:23 am
No surprises.
28 Harry
November 18th, 2009 at 2:24 am
Of all the things… today I had a great idea for a list to write. The topic? This… I had it all planned! Same points and everything. Coincidence or some kind of psychic prescience?
29 Arsnl
November 18th, 2009 at 2:24 am
@jfrater: when are u going to post those sub stories
30 Bearglove
November 18th, 2009 at 2:26 am
*Forgot to mention that some good things did indirectly come from the holocaust, if only just because we know the results of Mengele’s experiments.
And considering that the holocaust was just a small part of how Hitler and the Nazi’s affected the world in general, you have to take it as another part of a whole.
I hear Germans like to pretend it never happened, but not even Americans deny slavery or the wholesale displacement and slaughter of the Native American tribes and their people.
Dark history is still history.
31 calm_incense
November 18th, 2009 at 2:27 am
On a lesser extent, music. Every major YouTube music video has:
1) People bitching about the music
2) People bitching about people bitching about the music
Honestly, nothing on the Internet is completely argument-free. Hell, I’ve seen people fight over whether or not LOLcats are still funny (I say they most definitely are).
Interestingly enough, quite a few of these list entries (gun control, abortion, the Middle East, possible the origin of man) tend to come under the umbrella of politics, which is pretty moronic.
Oh, and discussing British vs. American things. The different versions of English. The different versions of The Office. Etc. Brits (and Canadians) have total inferiority complexes.
Oh, and yes. Discussing Britons and Canadians (and the UK and Canada) will also tend to brew a shitstorm.
I’m a little sleep deprived, so sorry if this comment was careless. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned Canadians…
32 astraya
November 18th, 2009 at 2:27 am
So what’s left?
We’re not going to have an extended discussion about beaver ass juice, are we?
33 Taash
November 18th, 2009 at 2:31 am
@astraya (31): I have to ask where that came form! Seen it to many times to ignore
34 calm_incense
November 18th, 2009 at 2:31 am
Oh, and Israel probably could have been its own entry. After all, some people believe it is the modern-day Nazi Germany. And the Palestinian plight is supposedly the modern-day Holocaust.
Oh, and the smiley face at the bottom near “About” is awesome.
35 Karl
November 18th, 2009 at 2:33 am
@Bearglove (23):
Shut up. Didn’t you see the title??? Ugh. When will this madness ever end??? Why not we talk about Dora, or preschool, or why the &^%$ shouldn’t we be eating the crusts on sliced bread. Understanding with each other begins with ourselves. This list makes me think that the Amish & Harrison Ford have BETTER lives. BETTER LIVES.
36 Robuk
November 18th, 2009 at 2:34 am
USA-centric obscurantism is a virus
37 Jack
November 18th, 2009 at 2:34 am
@Bearglove (29): No, Germans definitely don’t pretend it didn’t happen, everyone over there still feels incredibly shamed by the Holocaust, even people who are only in their 20s. It’s also extensively taught in schools. To them it is certainly no laughing matter, and they all feel a shared guilt for what happened.
38 kerb50
November 18th, 2009 at 2:38 am
A good list! Remarkably similar to an etiquette of subjects not to be discussed at the dinner table: Sex, Religion, and Politics.
39 TJ
November 18th, 2009 at 2:41 am
YAY now I can state my opinion on these topic’s… If anyone cares lol
#10: I don’t really care about what goes on in the Middle East. I have no issues with the people I just wish they would get over there barbaric ways(The few)..
#9: I have no problem with gay’s or lesbian’s let them live there lives because last time I checked they are human too. O and it being an act against the bible is bullshit(See #1)
#8: This one is tricky cause I do think there is a god…
#7: This one pisses me off the most… I can not stand those who treat others differently due to there race/gender/nationality… Like I said we are all HUMAN..
#6: I am neither for or against abortion….. Some people don’t deserve kids and some do… But for a immature teen to run off and kill a life cause she wanted to be a whore is wrong.. But for a woman that was raped and forcefully impregnated I understand that but seriously if you don’t want a kid that bad give them to a family that can’t have a child.. This topic confuses me…
#5: Gun’s don’t kill people… People kill people… If you wanted to use the excuse that gun’s kill in order to ban them then you might as well ban urself.. Or even better we should ban all dog’s and lions and pretty much anything that can kill…
#4: It happened….. Anyone who says it didn’t happen is in my eye’s a neo-nazi… But Genocide’s are a way of life one type of people will always think they are the top dog and try to eliminate the others it is quite pathetic..
#3: I care less about this topic, Bunch of fat grumpy Viagra stuffing old men who think they know it all.
#2: Evolution of man should be renamed to Religion VS Science… That is pretty much what it is… Another random arguement cause man has nothing better to do wiht there lives but argue over the past.
#1: This is a topic I get hell for, I do think there is a god… BUT I am against ALL types of religion… It’s the same damn thing just in different words.. I can not follow some books that are written by man.. Cause man is the worlds best liar.. I do not dislike people who believe in religion, I just can not stand when these fools try to push it on me and when I choose not to worship there way I am suddenly going to hell..
I didn’t type this to start and arguement I just wanna see how many people have the same or close too output’s on these as I have.. Also if my spelling and grammar isn’t perfect then please SUE ME lol it is the internet for god sake you use LOL don’t you..
40 TJ
November 18th, 2009 at 2:41 am
OMG I am very sorry I fully forgot…
VERY VERY VERY good list Aaron!!!!!
41 Bearglove
November 18th, 2009 at 2:42 am
@36-I’ve been misinformed by visitors to the country and some German immigrants that I have conversed with then.
Even so, feeling ashamed is no way to mend things. It’s over and done with. Move on.
42 Denzell
November 18th, 2009 at 2:45 am
dude, don’t we ourselves discuss these things? especially on the “Your View?” Just asking…
43 Bearglove
November 18th, 2009 at 2:45 am
@ Tj(38). Thanks for piping in too. This was my intent as well. Just because we’re trying to avoid arguing over these things, doesn’t mean we can’t still state our opinions on the matters in a serious fashion.
44 jfrater
November 18th, 2009 at 2:48 am
@Taash (32): Believe it or not, it started on Top 10 Bizarre Food Ingredients because beaver ass juice is one of the items (item 3)
45 TJ
November 18th, 2009 at 2:54 am
@43 hey No problem everyone has a right to there own opinion and I would not hate on anyone’s opinion no matter how much it bothers some
46 TJ
November 18th, 2009 at 2:55 am
UNLESS you are a racist… There opinions never matter
47 ats
November 18th, 2009 at 2:57 am
the only reason people cant discuss these topics rationally is because everyone thinks they and only they are right. the problem is not the topic, but the people discussing them
48 TJ
November 18th, 2009 at 2:58 am
@47 Took the words right outta my mouth
. Well said
49 Taash
November 18th, 2009 at 3:02 am
@jfrater (44): Thanks Jaime… It was posted before i was a listverser… but i have been trying to catch up! Musta missed it.
50 tremblingfingers
November 18th, 2009 at 3:05 am
@jfrater (44): who can forget beaver ass juice??
51 Q?
November 18th, 2009 at 3:07 am
Look at all these lovely topics for discussion!
52 Momotsuki
November 18th, 2009 at 3:07 am
Love the list. Great work. I thought you would have ranked abortion, homosexuality and the middle east higher than gun ownership and the holocaust. Nonetheless, I really enjoyed reading this.
53 Arsnl
November 18th, 2009 at 3:17 am
@calm_incense (31): u left out people that notice there are two types of people
54 Gabriel
November 18th, 2009 at 3:18 am
Honestly most of these topics are only controversial in the US, in France for example the evolution of man isn’t exactly a hot debate, evolution is widely accepted my the majority, even if France is historically a Catholic country.
55 Dan777
November 18th, 2009 at 3:20 am
I get into arguements over religion and the origins of man all the time. Especially religion that is a sure fire starter. By the way just to refute one comment, there is zero evidence for the religious sides arguements and truckloads of evidence for evolution and how we evolved.
56 seneca
November 18th, 2009 at 3:21 am
@Bearglove (30):
Mengele’s experiments increased the knowledge of the world in no way. Please mention what discovery he made.
He was an awful scientist and the most horrid of human beings.
Please tell what you know to the contrary.
Mike Seneca
57 Gav
November 18th, 2009 at 3:25 am
You could have made it a bigger list.
I really thought #1 was going to be Star Trek vs Star Wars
58 Taash
November 18th, 2009 at 3:30 am
@Gav (57): Star Trek… No doubt!
59 Frank
November 18th, 2009 at 3:36 am
Don’t you see the irony in posting this list?
60 astraya
November 18th, 2009 at 3:43 am
jfrater and taash: Thanks for explaining that. That’s the problem with in-jokes.
What’s the bet that this turns into an extended discussion about at least one of the things that we’re not meant to be discussing?
61 Walnut_iguana
November 18th, 2009 at 3:49 am
Missed a big one
(as far as topics not to dicuss on the internet…)
Mac vs PC
62 seneca
November 18th, 2009 at 3:52 am
Dear Aaron,
Your choice of the ten items to be listed is perfect.
Your prose is well-reasoned, clear, and insightful. You wrote in a manner that discusses, not inflames.
I would say that Muhammad or even Buddha may be more discussed throughout history than Jesus, but you did say “arguably”, not “definitely”. Besides, we’re Euro-centric and proud of it, so let’s go with Jesus!
The photos are good. Perhaps the photo of the fetus displays a bias, but it’s normal to have biases. An abortion-rights advocate would show a blob of protoplasm.
The photo of the soldier about to shoot the man with the child is tough to look at and brings home the horror of that time.
Great job!
Mike Seneca
Chicago
63 Cazzazz
November 18th, 2009 at 3:52 am
Question: Is scientology technically a ‘religion’ in the states? I only ask as there is a bit of a stink being kicked up over here (UK) about them getting tax breaks or something as it is still recognised as a cult here (and banned entirely in Germany if I remember correctly?)
Lovin’ the list, hit it right on the head!
64 AuthorityFigure
November 18th, 2009 at 4:03 am
Increasingly, this site is becoming less and less pleasant to visit. Lists seem to trudge up old wounds without making any new comment on them.
65 Jorick
November 18th, 2009 at 4:23 am
Nice list. I’ve encountered flame wars about all of these subjects multiple times. Although, usually, I’m the one who brought them up for amusement… But still, it’s a true list.
66 joanne
November 18th, 2009 at 4:26 am
#10 is so true, I have – or at least my usernames have – gotten death threats while fighting on the online theater of the Israeli-Gaza War almost one year ago; that’s why I don’t argue or debate that much anymore.
67 El the erf
November 18th, 2009 at 4:27 am
This list brings back nostalgic memories of the good ol’ days of 2007.
68 Dr.Nick
November 18th, 2009 at 4:28 am
I discussed numbers 9, 8, 6, 3, 2, and 1 on the internets. Usually against crazy creationists. And it has only once (out of about 100 times) ended with both sides remaining calm.
Nonetheless, flame wars make the internet fun.
69 Becca
November 18th, 2009 at 4:29 am
I think this is to make up for taking down the mass murder list by starting new arguments. -_-
This list was interesting, I give it that, although I would have liked to see a bit more depth to the opposing sides’ arguments and reasons.
70 TJ
November 18th, 2009 at 4:29 am
@65 Lists don’t trudge any wounds the people that can not maturely talk about these items cause the issues….
71 Jonny
November 18th, 2009 at 4:29 am
Does anyone know the origins of that holocaust picture? What a disturbing but powerful image!
72 TJ
November 18th, 2009 at 4:33 am
@71 Again LISTS have nothing to do with it… When will people understand a typed document has nothing on human reactions.. When you react in a negative manner you should expect and fight.. Everyone has gotta grow up one day…
73 L
November 18th, 2009 at 4:47 am
@Gav (57):
Star Trek vs Star Wars debate is extremely silly because Babylon 5 is best ever
74 L
November 18th, 2009 at 4:48 am
Oh and don’t mention the war. I only mentioned it once but I think I got away with it.
75 Woyzeck Returns
November 18th, 2009 at 4:48 am
The interesting thing about these issues is that the internet provides an anonymous forum for people so that they can really say what they mean. It allows people to sharpen their views and really thrash things out.
Of course, they also provide ample opportunites for the lulz.
76 Jobrag
November 18th, 2009 at 4:49 am
TJ at 39
Your number 5 guns don’t kill people, people kill people. But people with guns kill far more people then people without guns. I’m sure that the world would be a far far better place if we replaced all the people in the USA with AK 47s but that is probably going a bit far, better to remove the guns from the equation.
Jobrag
77 Woyzeck Returns
November 18th, 2009 at 4:55 am
Guns don’t kill people, bullets kill people. Let the rednecks keep their guns. Ban bullets.
78 Andor
November 18th, 2009 at 5:07 am
funny you should include politics and religion, when in fact everything on the list is basically politics and religion
79 El the erf
November 18th, 2009 at 5:16 am
@Woyzeck Returns (78): Its neither the guns nor the bullets, its man who kills man. (have I heard this comment before or what!)
80 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 5:19 am
Oh boy, just wait until the trolls get here!
81 Captain Funtime
November 18th, 2009 at 5:21 am
star wars over trek any day. apart from the newest film which ive decided could be my top film of the decade…
82 Woyzeck Returns
November 18th, 2009 at 5:23 am
SEND IN THE CLOWNS.
83 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 5:32 am
@Gabriel (54): Dear, the Catholic church has never denied evolution.
84 rushfan
November 18th, 2009 at 5:33 am
Great list! These are all things I love to talk about in real life, which annoys people enough, but it is impossible to have a rational discussion about these topics online.
85 Doubledown Tandino
November 18th, 2009 at 5:37 am
I completely disagree with every single thing on this list.
All 10.
If you want to remain in your huddled corner with your little computer playing stupid facebook games and never making any statement that could possibly change the world, then yeah, don’t talk about any controversial issues.
If you want to transform the world and start doing something positive with you life and you want to start transforming the world for the better, then these issues need to be discussed.
It’s a shame you think these issues shouldn’t be discussed. I believe EVERY SINGLE ONE needs to be brought up , and brought up daily in order to actively and proactively change the world for the better.
If you want to be a mindless numb sheep… then keep your thoughts to yourself
86 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 5:39 am
Awesome list, Aaron! I love the topics and love talking about them. Great way to get the blood pumping!
87 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 5:41 am
All you Star Wars vs Star Trekkers are missing the point. Neither of those matters much because Firefly / Serenity is the master!
88 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 5:45 am
@Doubledown Tandino (86): The entire point of the list is that these things cannot be discussed civilly on the Internet. It isn’t that people don’t want to talk about them, but bringing any of these items up is pretty much going to ignite a flame war.
89 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 5:46 am
@86 Doubledown Tandino
I don’t think the idea is so much “you can’t bring these up” as it is, “If you bring them up, it WILL start an argument that most likely WON’T end well and definitely won’t change anyone’s mind.”
I can’t remember a time when I’ve witnessed anyone switching sides on any of these topics other than the odd Republican switching to Democrat or vice versa. Other than that, positions on these topics seem pretty ossified in most people’s minds.
90 BigMack321
November 18th, 2009 at 5:48 am
I have a feeling this list will be removed…..
91 Jose Daniel
November 18th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Ok! when will the discussion start?!
Please haters! take it easy!
92 Jose Daniel
November 18th, 2009 at 5:59 am
For me one of the most delicate themes is middle east.
we have everything going on there! religion, oil, abuses, war, discrimination, EVERYTHING!
And always everyone have a different point of view.
93 ames801
November 18th, 2009 at 5:59 am
I can still discuss these things while drinking, right? I mean that’s where I come up with my best points…
94 shirokuma
November 18th, 2009 at 6:03 am
Very nice one, but (as expected) bit lopsided: Some topics might be harder to bear/discuss for Americans, while people in Europe will just shrug and ask “so what?”.
And I’m not talking only about the (well-explained!) topic of GUN CONTROL.
HOMOSEXUALITY, for instance, is one point which might be more fiercely discussed in a more religiously biased environnement.
Same – especially! – goes for the “ORIGINS OF MAN”. This is a mostly US American problem. At least I have never seen anyone around Germany, Russia or Japan having issues with Evolution.
As for the HOLOCAUST, the discussions in Germany on that topic are mostly about how to shut the f*** up those few remaining Neo-Nazis.
Even if there’s virtually no one listening to them, they are, of course, annoying to everyone and embarassing especially to our government.
95 Ro
November 18th, 2009 at 6:09 am
“Everyone has an opinion about the Middle East. It may be about the Palestinian State;”
Hah, as if it’s the fault of the Palestines alone. They were living there first remember, and then had to make room for the Jews.
One line is all it takes to make an article biased. That line was so off-putting, it made me read the list in a whole different way; with my eyes open looking for more prejudiced subtle hints.
96 seneca
November 18th, 2009 at 6:11 am
@shirokuma (95):
Evolution is a problem to about 20% of America. They are generally in the South and highly Protestant, not Catholic.
They read the Bible literally and are able to overlook conflicting statements therein.
A long time ago, we had a trial (the Scopes Trial) about evolution. Evolution lost. In eastern Tennessee, where the trial occurred, evolution will still lose. On the other hand, Tennessee grows some of the prettiest girls in the land, so who am I to argue?
Mike
97 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 6:11 am
@Ro 96
“Hah, as if it’s the fault of the Palestines alone. They were living there first remember, and then had to make room for the Jews.”
That depends entirely on how far back you want to go in history.
98 palatyne
November 18th, 2009 at 6:15 am
well-written list.
99 saber25
November 18th, 2009 at 6:22 am
Wow nice list. Haha Hi listverse I am back. I just got a flesh wound
100 saber25
November 18th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Did you know that the Middle East has more Filipino OFW’s than any other countries?
And I feel like kicking a gay homo’s face and chainsaw him clean through.
And many say Jesus Christ had a wife? haha they’re retards.
Wow and can’t you believe that the Jews forgave the Germans? Wtf.
Wow and there is 1,00 abortion cases there in the U.S. Did you know that?
ANd haha Filipinos’ gangsta’s in Tondo have more guns than in a whole Russian, Chinese, American armies combined together> haha many slums and you can buy a cheap gun with no permit!
And did you know that nearly 10 Million Jews died in the holocaust?
Wow I hate to say but the CHinese Politics can’t even do a thing to their own country.
ANd do you think we originated from effing apes from Darwin’s theory? Buwahahahaha
And I can’t believe you all you didn’t join in the Jedi religion, we all have 400,000 followers now. You all are catholics!
Haha so long suckers!
101 saber25
November 18th, 2009 at 6:31 am
haha joking! Ya I know Iyam a retard. T_T But hey, just making my day. How you all my drinking buddies. I have something to tellyou, but not now.
102 Wrichik
November 18th, 2009 at 6:37 am
“Evolution or Creation? The books that have been written on this subject for either position could probably fill a modest library. Each side has reams of data and boatloads of facts to back up its position and each side roundly thinks the other side’s data and facts are so much excrement.”
Really ? ‘Facts’ & ‘data’ that support creationism ? I totally agree that there is a huge amount of controversy among internet users and people in general about the veracity of the theory of evolution, but to call what creationists have to show for their theory ‘facts’ is an insult to human intelligence. On each of the other 9 items of this list, I have my opinion and I acknowledge the fact there exist contradictory opinions which deserve to be considered, but the done-to-death creationist technique of citing some human fossil evidence from the Triassic era or the irreducible complexity of the human eye does not command any respect at all. Even Holocaust deniers manage to present their case with greater aplomb than creationists.
———————————————————
Also, here are a few more you could have mentioned :
-Terrorism and Islam / Prophet Muhammad
-Global warming and mankind’s contribution to it
-India/Pakistan relations esp. Kashmir
103 get a clue
November 18th, 2009 at 6:38 am
I believe we each live in a house of our own creation. If we’ve constructed our house out of cards, admitting we may be wrong about something (big or small) is like a stiff breeze…removing the one faulty card will probably knock down our house. So we simply put more flimsy cards around it in hopes of shoring it up…instead of investing the time it takes to carefully reconstruct a more study foundation upon which to rebuild.
We assign emotions to our self-constructed house and cling to the emotions instead of admitting we can’t even remember why we built that particular wing in the first place. We find it easier to go tribal than to expand our understanding; we cling to the notion that we both can’t be right; if I am right then you must be wrong.
Most of us still live in the house we constructed as children, and instead of making necessary repairs or wholesale rebuilding we just keep piling on the cards.
It reminds me of the person who bangs his head against the wall. When asked why he does it, he replies, “I don’t remember why I do it…but it sure feels good when I stop.”
104 WiseMenSay
November 18th, 2009 at 6:52 am
its not that these things shouldn’t be discussed, its just that theres a certain (small) percentage of humanity composed of epsilon-minus pillocks who just like getting angry about stuff. and the anonymity of the internet just encourages them. i’m guessing that was sort of the point the list was trying to make? either way i liked it – just what lv needs after The Incident…
105 Fazool
November 18th, 2009 at 6:52 am
Another good one i find to get caught in is Canadians vs Americans
Americans always poking at canadians, “Little Sister” “Jut the top hat of america”
Canadians bringing up good healthcare, being a better place to live
Medium- we are almost the exact same if you take away politics and the murders and the debt
106 Glass
November 18th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Man, what a bust the internet turned out to be.
107 alexman
November 18th, 2009 at 7:01 am
its funny to see people arguing about the issues raised in a list called 10 things you should NEVER discuss online.
i will say however that mohammed is more likely now days to cause arguments than jesus. he’s old news
108 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 7:02 am
Hmm, not that many stupid-ass comments. I’m surprised.
109 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 7:03 am
@saber25 (101): There are some, however…
110 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Great list, Aaron. The order seems slightly wrong, but other than that, brilliant!
111 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 7:08 am
@astraya (61):
I’ll wager lefty that you’re right. And look! It’s beginning!
112 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 7:08 am
@Fazool (106):
‘Medium- we are almost the exact same if you take away politics and the murders and the debt’
…..That’s like saying a cat and a mongoose are almost the exact same thing, if you take away the legs, the head and the body.
‘As The Winter Winds Littered London With Lonely Hearts.’ Think about it.
113 JohnnyT
November 18th, 2009 at 7:13 am
All you people in the beginning of the comments that say evolution is scientific fact. Well science is in itself a theory, therefore anything science says is really just theory. There’s some philisophical thought for you. Also i would like to point out, religion used to be used to explain things, then alchemy, now science (i’m sure there were many of steps in between). So my question is after thousands of years passing we now see the older methods as primitive and science as definitive. So who’s to say in 100 years there won’t be a new way of thinking and science will be “primitive?” God I love philosophy, there are no right or wrong answers, just endless debate.
114 Tony
November 18th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Guys, let’s start a massive discussion of all these things right here to further prove the point of the list.
I’ll start…
Jesus wasn’t real.
And gays should be allowed to get married.
Also Israel has a right to exist.
Who agrees?
115 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 7:32 am
@JohnnyT (114):
Here’s some philosophy for you kid. If somebody makes a stupid comment on a website, but nobody is around to read it, does it make any noise? The answer is yes. So be quite.
116 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 7:33 am
That’s obviously quiet. Fail.
117 seneca
November 18th, 2009 at 7:34 am
@Tony (115):
I must admit that I had never heard that Jesus wasn’t real. I assume that means he didn’t exist.
One can debate whether he was Man, God, or the Son of God, but I didn’t think there was a debate about his existence.
There is a non-religious contemporary list in Rome of those executed, and his name was on the list as another criminal executed.
Seneca
118 Katie
November 18th, 2009 at 7:36 am
Every way I tried to comment on this list came out as an argument starter. I didn’t like this list.
119 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 7:40 am
@JohnnyT (114): science is not a “theory” as you stated it. science has finally given answers to the way the world, and the universe works, after thousands of years of humans having absolutely no proof behind the reasons the believed things to happen. for you to put science in the same boat as religion and alchemy is absurd. however, i personally do not care to the point where i am going to get up in arms about this because simply, if you dont think its “real” then that is your problem and not mine buddy.
120 Tom
November 18th, 2009 at 7:43 am
@77…you are in a dream world if you believe that replacing all the people in the USA with anything would make your world better…my guess is if that happened the rest of the world would be speaking either Chinese or Russian if they even survived the inevitable ensuing carnage…you need to grow up. Our minor involvement in the middle east is nothing compared to that of which we are capable and yet we use so little of our capability. If we didn’t exist I assure you would recieve no such mercy from Russia, China or pretty much any other probable agressor that the U.S. stands in the way of so you can sit back and criticize…so you’re welcome.
121 Ted
November 18th, 2009 at 7:44 am
How boring would life be if we all agreed on everything?
122 CRC3
November 18th, 2009 at 7:45 am
@tremblingfingers (15): i know, can’t say
123 sneeky8
November 18th, 2009 at 7:48 am
Excellent list…funny thing is that in my group of friends this is waht you are not allowed to talk about after 3 beers!LOL
124 mitchsn
November 18th, 2009 at 7:50 am
The internet is the perfect place for all of these topics because of the anonymity afforded to you by the internet! Its easier to speak whats truely on your mind when you dont have your audience directly in front of you.
I think this list should be renamed.
10 things you never want to discuss on your Facebook/Myspace/etc page.
Quickest way to thin out your friends list.
125 John
November 18th, 2009 at 7:52 am
@JohnnyT(114): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#Scientific_laws
Please don’t undermine your point with an uneducated bias.
126 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 7:56 am
i saw someone above state their opinions on each topic and i thought it would be fun to share mine as well because i disagreed with that person quite a bit!
#10: I dont believe i have a full enough education on the Middle East to have a definitive stance on it, ive formed an opinion based on what i know, but i dont think its appropriate to share it without more knowledge.
#9: To consider LGBT’s anything less that completely equal to you, is like being a racist in the south, in the 1960s and prior. To tell them they cant be “married” but can have “civil union” is the same as telling the blacks they can have a water fountain, just not the same one the whites use.
#8: Jesus most likely existed in some form or another, and seemed to have tried to teach good. Nothing wrong with him, hes just been hijacked.
#7: Youre a heretic if you still have race issues.
#6: While i dont know what would have to happen for me to actually be a part of an abortion… i do not think a law should govern a womans body and choices.
#5: This only exists because in 1776, it was relevant…in 2009 it is not. Its quite simple… look at the murder rates in the US.
#4: I believe the facts COULD be fudged a bit, but i dont think i will ever know for sure. If it all happened exactly as were told it did, then yes, this is the most heinous thing imaginable, however, “winner’s history” is absolutely real, so i cant exactly call someone a “neo nazi” for questioning it.
#3: I’m very Independent. Partisanship is terrible and i think most agree.
#2: This one is only touchy because many people refuse to be educated. Evolution exists, its how it all started to begin with that still has science scratching its head.
#1: I do not believe organized religions are healthy.
127 mikerodz
November 18th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Can’t we delete some nonesense comments here, Let maintain these site sensible.
128 Davo
November 18th, 2009 at 7:57 am
The only really discussion about religion is how to convince delusional people that it’s all stories but using only facts, evidence and common sense. For some reason its difficult. Hey, or maybe why hasn’t the word religion hasn’t been officially chnaged to ‘farce’ or ‘scam’
129 Rufus
November 18th, 2009 at 7:58 am
ironically,
you can’t talk about china in china (or north korea and other communism countries)
nice job though, i don’t get why people dislike this list
Never discuss a “Top 10 Things You Should Never Discuss Online” list online
firestorm starter ^10
DO NOT START A DISCUSSION ON THIS,
(that’s why i’m not posting a reason for my choices)
10: I think that people in the middle east are good, they just live in less developed / poorly governed countries
9: I disagree with homosexuality
8: Im a christian…
7: I want racial harmony
6: I discourage abortion
5: I disagree with being allowed to have guns
4: The holocaust is bad in whatever way
3: I’m not quite sure what the choices are because i don’t live in america… i just like democracy (not necessarily the democratic party)
2: I support creation
1: I think that people should have the right to believe in what they want to believe in. just don’t use that as an excuse to hurt others
(PS: notice that all my choices starts with “I”)
130 Rufus
November 18th, 2009 at 7:59 am
edit on number 4: I think the holocaust is bad in whatever way
131 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 7:59 am
@Tom (121): Tom, the comment you just made is why people hate Americans. You’re coming across like we are the saviors of Earth, and we really are not… we got lucky that our country was not connected to the same continent that the majority of WW2 was being fought on, and that is the main reason we came out of the conflict as the richest. Our time will come (and likely soon thanks to China) where we will no longer be the top dog, so while he was not right for what he said, you are equally not right for how you think you deserve some kind of “thanks”.
132 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 8:00 am
I just remembered that on top of some commenters adding Star Trek/Star Wars as a no-no topic….how about Ninjas vs Pirates? (We all know vikings will kick both their butts, but we don’t need to go there.)
133 Mathilda
November 18th, 2009 at 8:03 am
Thanks for the list; I’m going to use it to start some conversations during Thanksgiving dinner!
I think I might add a few more though: Capital punishment, juvenile justice (at what age and for what crimes should juveniles be treated as adults, abstinence only education, and (strangely) hunting.
Actually hunting is one which seems to become an issue for argument on the internet but not so much in person. I think one side tends to view a bunch of rich toffs slaughtering farm raised animals and then just leaving someone else to clean up while they go off to get drunk and feel manly. The other side is referring to people who are killing part of an overpopulation of animals who would likely starve to death in the winter anyway, and filling their freezer full of meat to feed their families.
134 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:03 am
@Rufus (130): totally not asking this to fight with you, but what do you mean by “disagree with homosexuality”? i am very curious by your wording…
135 Rufus
November 18th, 2009 at 8:07 am
@Adam: umm… (english is not my native language) … perhaps go against would be better?
136 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 8:09 am
@Rufus (130):
Unlike ‘Adam’ i am looking to have a fight with you. Most of what you said was rubbish, and you are an idiotic religious zealot.
137 Rufus
November 18th, 2009 at 8:12 am
you can put out your points
i feel perfectly fine to be the so called “idiotic religious zealot”
138 Eclecticpoet
November 18th, 2009 at 8:13 am
It seems like the USA is right up there with the Middle East in terms of controversy. One side says we’re the absolute worst country ever and we have absolutely no redeeming qualities. The other side portrays us as the absolute moral authority that has single-handedly saved the world on more than one occasion. All of the sane individuals that believe the country is different, but not better or worse than other countries end up being ignored or being attacked for being apologists/pinko commies.
As to why these topics bring up such vitriol, I think it’s because most of these topics are bi-polar. There’s only two choices and the one that isn’t yours is wrong. Also, subjects like abortion, the Middle East, the Holocaust, and others are usually considered life or death. If someone denies the Holocaust they must be wanting to start it up again. If someone supports Israel they want to see Palestinians eradicated. Another big reason is attention. If I say that Israel and Palestine both have a right to peaceful co-existence I’m not going to get near as much of a response as if I call for the destruction of one or the other. Maybe one way to temper the conversation would be to ignore inflammatory posts and overwhelm them with discussions of more rational posts. What do you guys think?
139 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:14 am
@Rufus (138): i did just notice now that you blamed the problems in the Middle East on the area being “poorly governed and underdeveloped”… Those problems have existed since times when the Middle East was the center of the planet… where the hell do people get taught these things?! :::faceplant:::
140 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:16 am
@Eclecticpoet (139): i think youre right, but good luck finding people with strong enough educations to actually discuss these things rationally with you… (see: Rufus)
141 Cubone
November 18th, 2009 at 8:16 am
I’m pretty sure the internet doesn’t really exist . . .
142 archangel
November 18th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Wow!
If people were just sane and wise, these things wouldn’t be so controversial!
Respect people…
143 Scratch
November 18th, 2009 at 8:21 am
A few of the things that are left to discuss once all controversial topics are eliminated:
- The weather, specifically the weather yesterday. No mention of global trends should be mentioned.
- Non-religiously inspired facial hair.
- Pizza, but with no mention of meat or Halal and Kosher versions of said pizza. In fact, scratch pizza from this list because some people are lactose intolerant and pizza is not pizza without cheese.
- The manufacturing of ceramics in early nineteenth century England, but without mentioning the topics of labour and/or cultural appropriation.
- Hats that do not have sports logos, animal products such as feathers, or religious significance.
- The benefits and disadvantages in the use of mechanical cataloguing in archives. As long as people agree not to argue over perceived inadequacies of the grammatical cataloguing of archives, because that can get a little heated.
- Generic writing implements.
144 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 8:23 am
@archangel (143):
Nice work Sherlock.
145 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 8:26 am
w000000. It would seem lefty will remain safe. Thank you guys.
146 DontGoogleMe
November 18th, 2009 at 8:27 am
”Top 10 Things You Should Never Discuss Online” Wrong title.
It should be;
”Top 10 Things You Should Never Discuss Offline”
You can discuss anything Out Of Line, Online!
That’s the Core of Internet politics.
For those who say that ”Democracy works in theory but fails in practice” ( I agree on that),
it should be;
”Democracy works in theory/Online but fails in offline practice”
So the bottom line is = YOU FAIL!
147 Frenkie
November 18th, 2009 at 8:29 am
This list ( however good the intend to make it ) does not state 10 different items:
10
The Middle East, this is about religion.
9
Homosexuality, Bible says is a no-no, so this is about religion.
8
Jesus Christ, nuff said.
7
Race Relations
6
Abortion, again, bible says no, so this is about religion.
5
Gun Control
4
Race relations
3
Politics
2
Origins of Man, bible claims it, so this is about religion.
1
Religion……….
I only count 4 items and 6 more only about religious hangups.
What would our world be so much better off without religion.
148 L
November 18th, 2009 at 8:31 am
@Adam (140): :::faceplant:::
You’re doing it wronf
149 SKIN
November 18th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Is there really an argument with gun control? I mean pro gun control advocates rely on emotion and fallacious arguments.
150 Frenkie
November 18th, 2009 at 8:34 am
..Oh and btw Im proud to be a homo, and i love riding a huge penis. i dont care what you think.
151 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:35 am
@L (149): w-r-o-n-g…youre doing that wrong.
152 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:37 am
@Frenkie (148):
#6 is not just religion…its also a human rights issue, and a women’s rights issue…which is probably why that one is so loaded.
153 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 8:37 am
@ Getaclue 104
“Most of us still live in the house we constructed as children, and instead of making necessary repairs or wholesale rebuilding we just keep piling on the cards.”
I don’t think I’ve ever heard it stated better. I will say that attempting the rebuilding will often hurt like Hell.
154 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:38 am
@SKIN (150): pro-gun people arent so much fighting for the acutal ability to have a gun in their hand as much as they are fighting to preserve the constitution as the american forefathers wrote it. i believe that they fear if it is changed, it will create a domino effect and many other parts will be changed as well.
155 MommaDuck
November 18th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Great list and timing!
Just remember even if you don’t believe in God he believes in you!
156 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:42 am
@SKIN (150): its similar to pro-choice people… they arent arguing that we should be killing babies and handing out abortions, they just want to ensure that a woman CAN choose to do what she wants with her body.
157 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 8:43 am
All right, let’s clear this up. Jesus DID exist. There is no question about that. The argument is if he was God’s son or simply a man teaching people how to live good lives.
158 FasterHarder
November 18th, 2009 at 8:44 am
@ 147 : You Nailed it dude!!
159 Dervis_khan
November 18th, 2009 at 8:45 am
10 Tell Middle East they have had as much time ( actually More) to get their shit together as any other country and they have 50 more years to fix their stuff on their own. If they havent sell their land to the highest bidder ( probably China) and they will fix it no doubt. oh and give the money to feed children or save polar bears or whatever.
9. I am not gay so I dont care if they can marry or not, just like I dont expect them to care if I can. and on a side note please stop comparing them to the civil rights movement it is not the same thing. But if you must compare it to civil rights at least be fare and say African Americans fix the problem for themselvs and made themselvs be treated farily, so Homosexuals should do the same, in a sense man up and do something instead of crying.
8. Maybe he was real Maybe not, but the world would without a doubt be better if everyone followed the 10 comandments. whomever came up with them put aside.
7. If you are racist you should be shot in the face. On either side of any fence imaginable. Shot in the face
6 Abortion, personally think to may people use it for a way out which I dont like, but not sure how to stop them without stoping rape, and Medical reasons witch I am fine with. It would be like saying no jury trials because most of the people are guilty you are only saving 1 or 2 whom arent. Personally I am fine with saving that 1 or 2
5 Gun Control, lets not forget that this is the 2nd thing out forefathers thought to put in writing, so that might give a hint to its important, and if they can get rid of this admendment they can then get rid of the rest in a blink of an eye.
4. Stop debating on the numbers being inflated!! people were cooked in freaking ovens. So the difference in some peoples mind is 999 people cooked no big deal, 1000 people cooked HOLY SHIT NOW WE HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION. agian idiots. Have respect for those that fell, have pride in a world that killed the bastards that did it.
3 Politics suck, Protect me from invasion and deliver my damn mail everything else just keep your nose out of. all crooks
2. We will never 100% know, there are good points on both sides, personally everything just clicking together by chance is a little much for me.
1. Relegion, please see number 8. but I am fine with relegions even if they start arguments because respectful but passionate fighting for something is good. Now killing people fore a relegion is bad and people who do that should be well refer to number 7
160 MommaDuck
November 18th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Oh yeah forgot to mention this fact too…Guns don’t kill people, people kill people!
161 troll
November 18th, 2009 at 8:48 am
HORRIBLE FAIL OF A LIST
162 Ted
November 18th, 2009 at 8:48 am
@MommaDuck (156): How do you know this?
163 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 8:49 am
@150 Skin
“Is there really an argument with gun control? ”
It’s not as wild and woolly everywhere, but here in the American South, it’s pretty intense. Right now, you can’t buy ammunition or certain guns because people around here are so scared of President Obama that they are buying those calibers of ammo and gun by the CASELOAD as soon as they are delivered on the trucks to the larger sporting goods stores or the local Wally-World.
164 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 8:52 am
@troll (162): Trolls aren’t appreciated on this site, troll. And this isn’t a ‘horrible fail of a list’ at all.
165 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:53 am
@Dervis_khan (160): you just posted the stupidest comment i have ever seen on this site.
166 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 8:54 am
God made a mistake when he created gay people. They should try to hide their unfortunate affliction the best they can. We don’t want to corrupt the children.
167 Trojan_man
November 18th, 2009 at 8:55 am
@ Adam (166)…were you referring to the whole thing or a certain part?
168 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 8:55 am
@The Righteous one (167): Wait…isn’t he supposed to be infallible or something like that? If so…no mistake. Nice try.
169 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 8:57 am
@Adam (166): Obviously you haven’t been on Listverse for long, Adam.
170 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:57 am
@Trojan_man (168):
the whole thing. i read the first part and got ready to reply, but then kept reading and realized that i wasnt dealing with ignorance, i was dealing with a fool.
171 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 8:57 am
@Adam (166): I don’t see what was so bad about his comments. I thought they were fine. What part?
172 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 8:57 am
@Davy (170): only started reading the comments 3 weeks ago! haha. does it get worse than this??
173 Trojan_man
November 18th, 2009 at 9:02 am
@Adam (171)
Thank God (or god, goodness, heavens…I don’t want to start a fight because of a capitalization or wording error) that we have people like Dervis. It makes the day go by so quick. And it gives Randall ammunition.
174 Nauplius
November 18th, 2009 at 9:02 am
I would add the following as honorable mentions:
Death penalty
Euthanasia
Animal testing
Global warming
Sports
Movies/music
175 Bang!
November 18th, 2009 at 9:03 am
@MommaDuck(161)
I think that guns help…if you stood there and yelled “BANG!” you wouldn’t kill many people…:)
176 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 9:03 am
@Adam (173): Oh, there are unbelievably stupid comments on this site. I have been here for a little over two years and I have seen some pretty incredible stuff.
177 krypto092108
November 18th, 2009 at 9:04 am
“the last list that mentioned one of the topics here.”
What list was that?
And what item was it?
178 Bob
November 18th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Bearglove (24), you obviously know nothing. Don’t let the internet door hit you on the way out.
179 Lyrebyrd
November 18th, 2009 at 9:05 am
George Carlin’s seven dirty words was the epitome of sarcasm, and he fought like hell against censorship. So, I can only assume that you are being ironic here?
180 Mindseye
November 18th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Given that after only a few hours the comments are already upto 180 clearly all of these topics should be and are discussed online, a self defeating list!
None the less thank you for it.
181 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 9:09 am
@oouchan (172): you being serious? I’ll copy and paste and point it all out if you want? Lemme know…. I didn’t think I would need to do such a thing…
182 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 9:11 am
@Davy (177): thanks for the heads up! Let’s form a coalition!
183 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 9:12 am
@Adam (182): Yes, I was being serious. I didn’t see anything bad about him expressing his views. Just wondering what parts you had an issue with. Thanks.
184 venom31098
November 18th, 2009 at 9:13 am
I would just like to say… well done.
I thought that you showed each topic a lot of respect, great list.
185 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 9:15 am
@oouchan (184): ok fair enough, gimme a few minutes to write it. I’ll reply to you directly, and no flaming, let’s be mature about this shall we? Looking forward to your reply.
186 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 9:17 am
@Adam (186): You haven’t been here long enough. I don’t flame. That’s Randall.
187 Faceplant
November 18th, 2009 at 9:19 am
@Tom (121):
Frightingly idiotic statement. America’s endless paranoia and compulsive need to control foreign affairs are what put you at such high risk at all times. You’re like an ADHD child with no stimuli whatsoever so you have to improvise and go f**k some shit up…
Imagine putting 10% of your military budget into something useful for your population instead… now, that would make a difference AND it wouldn’t irritate your “enemies” either.
188 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 9:20 am
@Adam (183): Sure. Be on the alert though, a list like this is a breeding ground for some extremely dumbass comments.
189 Victor
November 18th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Basicly, this list says that we shouldn’t discuss things that involves religion. I agree, topics like homosexuality, the origin of man, abortion, the Bible and god never seem to change the minds of people and there’s rarely an agreement.
But I digress… there are also topics that shouldn’t be discussed (by the same standards implicit in the list) and those are communism vs capitalism, MAC vs PC and sports…
190 ChineapplePunk
November 18th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Tolerance: You’re ( T’nets) is doing it wrong.
191 Lifeschool
November 18th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Hi everyone,
I am very happy with the list; and the vast majority of comments so far. I think folks have largely ‘got’ the point this list was trying to make and not to be drawn into another fruitless, thankless mess of insults and abuse. Who needs it? As soon as I read abuse I skip the post. Perhaps abusers think they are being funny, but I don’t read them.
It seems to have never been easy to have an opinion. Someone once said something along the lines of “everyone has their own religion”; and by that I understand it to mean that everyone has their very own set of morals, standards, ideals, ideas and beliefs. Could we ever accept our differences? Perhaps it is hard but I put it to the reader that we have at least made an advance in being able to freely talk about it. Today, thanks to technology and the abundance of education, people are at the very least more open to talk – even if they aren’t always open to accepting that what another persons says is a part of their personal belief system.
A few weeks ago, there was a list published about human behaviour and about ‘being right’. Who IS right? While that question remains, debate will always reign. Perhaps there needs to be a safeguard or else nothing would be questioned or come into question, and folks would do whatever they liked. What IS acceptable? Is it acceptable to admite ones own morals and beliefs in public? If the answer is yes then there is no conflict. If the answer is NO then is it not the person saying NO who has the issue; the conflict of interest?
Perhaps things only start to escalate then one supposedly holds a moral ‘high ground’ over another; and proceeds to beat them over the head with it. This case, a case of ‘I’m right because I say so!’ has become (or perhaps has always been) a catalyst of war, and is a sign that pure negotiation has broken down in favour of prolongued, stubborn, incitement and provocation. Talking then fails to become useful at working a way past something and often only triumphs in bogging the whole thing down until both sides ignore, dismiss, or reject each other completely.
Unlike communication breakdowns in the physical world; the internet at least has a number of advantages. First of all it is annonymous. Second, the user can choose of log off/walk away without loosing face. But thirdly, because of the medium of words, the enquirers can at least choose to deliberate over their words and to alter or delete them when necessary before posting; offering more direct control perhaps than verbal language; and allowing the user to consider the matter in more depth.
So perhaps the whole subject offence – or being the cause of it – relies upon how much we choose (or neglect to choose) to consider each other?
192 Dervis_khan
November 18th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Adam I apologize for having opinions, or would it be better to apologize for posting opinions on a website that allows posting? Which ever way works best for you I guess
193 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 9:30 am
@oouchan (187): I don’t flame.
Well… I’m pretty sure it was you who once claimed your cat was a more effluent speaker than I…
194 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 9:32 am
@ianz09 (193): Really? Don’t remember that. Which list?
195 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 9:32 am
@Lifeschool (191): It was a good attempt, honest, but unfortunately I think you will only end up getting flamed. Here’s to the best for you, though.
196 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 9:36 am
@oouchan (169):
197 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 9:37 am
@oouchan (194): I don’t remember for sure, but it was a religious list. Although in this instance, I think I deserved it. I remember because it was when I really first started to comment on the threads. I said something similar to “The world would be a better place if people followed holy books to the letter” to which somebody else pointed out the stonings, persecution, and slavery. Then you said the thing about your cat, and I facepalmed. I meant the morals and teachings, but obviously when attempting to communicate that, I suffered a bout of epic fail.
And before anybody yells at me, I support gays and gay rights, regardless of what the Bible says. Just some preemptive clarification.
198 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Where’s Randall? I’d expect him to be here flaming assholes.
199 thewebpromter
November 18th, 2009 at 9:40 am
I thought Charles Darwin’s Evolution Theory has been denied.
200 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 9:41 am
@oouchan (169): Whoever said he is infallible, He made a mistake this one time. I’d say that’s a pretty good batting average. And there is an easy solution for his screw up…just keep gays in the closet!!!
201 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Wow over 200 already!
202 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 9:43 am
@The Righteous one (200): Damn, you aren’t just a troll, you’re a dick too.
203 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 9:45 am
@ianz09 (197): haha! Now I remember. I said that I have had better conversations with my cat.
Ok…but you did deserve it.
@The Righteous one (200): The bible says that god is infallible and if proven wrong then all of creation is supposed to come undone or some such rubbish. So he is not supposed to make mistakes or screw ups. That’s why we can’t say he made a mistake.
Of course, I don’t believe in any of that stuff so it doesn’t matter to me. I’m just sayin’.
Even so, nothing wrong with gays and they can be out if they so wish. My opinion on that.
204 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 9:50 am
@ianz09 (202): Hey, I’m just trying to “right a wrong”
205 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 9:54 am
I think god put me on this earth to spread the message to keep gays hidden.
206 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 9:56 am
@oouchan (172):
Scroll up to read his comments, i am simply replying here as to not take up a huge section of the comment thread.
Why is it important to point this stuff out? because people reproduce, and they spread their misinformation to their children, and so on and so on, causing the human race to slow down development.
10 The Middle East is not a country. The rest of what he says is totally invalid due to the fact that he thinks it is.
9. The gays ARE doing something about it, and yes it is absolutely a civil rights issue. This is an extremely offensive comment he made. Also, its spelled “F-A-I-R”.
8. I dont take issue with this comment, the 10 commandments are very basic rules to being a good person.
7. His point is correct, but in 50 years when people say the same thing regarding gay rights, im sure he wont like hearing them say that he should be “shot in the face”.
6 learn how to spell “stopping” and “which”, it damages the validity of what was one of your only decent and non offensive comments.
5 I get his point here, as i stated in an above comment, BUT, it was over 200 years ago when this applied, and it was put in there because militias were NEEDED at the time. let go of the past.
4. Again, am i saying that the numbers are inflated? no i am not… i am pointing out that “winner’s history” is all that usually exists, and now that the internet is around, we tend to get exposed to “loser’s history” as well… it doesnt mean either is dead right or wrong. Keep an open mind. very likely, the Holocaust happened very closely to what has been reported, but there are reasons why people debate if it did or not, dont just throw them under the bus until you have asked them why they think what they do.
3 theyre crooks, but you want them to deliver your mail for you and protect you? with what money?? this is typical american entitlement. (yes, i am american)
2. I cant debate him here, its one of the few sentences that didnt read like a 12 yr old wrote it. Good job. i dont agree, but good job.
1. Religion is how its spelled, but again, not too much controversy here.
those are my issues with what he wrote. he’s painted himself to be an idiot…numerous basic spelling errors, combined with poorly constructed sentences, which are using VERY loose information to make their points. i sincerely hope he still has schooling ahead of him because he needs it.
207 Dervis_khan
November 18th, 2009 at 9:56 am
@The Righteous one (205) I think we just found Gods 2nd mistake
208 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 9:57 am
@The Righteous one (205): This is exactly what I meant in comment 188.
209 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 9:58 am
@Dervis_khan (192): i dont mind your opinions. and i dont take issue with a single one… my problem is that like many people you spread false information and claim its an “opinion”… you might as well be saying that the sky is bright red, but then when someone tells you that you are wrong, you hide behind “oh but its my OPINION”
210 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 9:59 am
@oouchan (203): Hey now, I was the victim of shitty wording lol. We all make mistakes. Completely irrelevant, but how does one pronounce your username? That has been confusing me since I read it.
211 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:00 am
@The Righteous one (204): No, no one is judging. Do your thing, man…
212 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:01 am
@ianz09 (210): ooooooouch-AN, I think. Fuck.
213 gabi319
November 18th, 2009 at 10:01 am
@The Righteous one (200):
And you think your heterosexual fumblings at PDA are any better? I think we should leave YOU in the closet. Hey, I’m just trying to right a wrong here.
Right one ugly ass wrong…
I think god put me on this earth to spread the message that you’re stupid but it seems you’re doing a good enough job on your own that I don’t need to point it out.
214 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 10:01 am
@Davy (208): he’s pullin your leg i think…no?
215 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:02 am
@The Righteous one (205): With that you just proved you are a troll.
@Adam (206): Nice points. However, I never go after spelling as some of the listers don’t use english as a first language.
Having said that, I won’t go through each of your responses but I do see where you are coming from.
@Dervis_khan (207): hahaha!
216 gabi319
November 18th, 2009 at 10:03 am
I think one interesting thing about having all these hotly contested issues all on one list is that the comment thread seems disjointed. Like there are so many soapboxes and not enough time. Interesting plan of attack, Aaron.
217 Beelzebubba
November 18th, 2009 at 10:04 am
My 2 cents:
God – yep, I’m a believer.
Middle East – has been a shit storm from day one and will be until the end.
Homosexuality – the only thing in the Bible referred to as “an abomination”, look it up. That being said, I really don’t care if your gay. If you are a man that enjoys sucking dick…..have at it. And, as a man, I can certainly see why one woman would want to be with another woman. That’s a very sexist view I’m sure but what are you going to do? My problem starts and ends when you try and convince me that it’s normal. Boiled down to it’s very basis for being; sex is for procreation. The procreation of the species is not enhanced in any way by the coupling of the same sexes. Homosexuality is not normal.
Race relations – uhmmmm, I’m a southern boy by birth so I may have a different view than others here, but I’m not sure this is as big a problem as others my think. An issue, absolutely. A big issue, not so much any more.
Religion – the Bible (which ever version you may read, I read King James) never mentions religion. The Bible talks of faith. In my humble opinion, it’s not important to be religious (the Bible also never mentions that you must attend a Church)as long as you have faith and a PERSONAL relationship with God. Not preaching, just passing along an opinion.
218 Dervis_khan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Adam, No worries I know I am horrible at spelling and typing.
219 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 10:05 am
@oouchan (215): thats a really good point man, i did not consider that they might not all have english as a first language. using context clues, and calling them “our forefathers” would lead me to think that this person’s first language IS english, but thanks for the heads up…ill definitely keep it in mind for the future!
220 63jax
November 18th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Who can be that stupid to deny the existence of holocaust? It was real as can get. As for the homos, you shouldn’t bother putting them here, too much attention for that kind of people. As for the arabs we all know they are stupid fanatics. See, we already have a fight here…
221 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:06 am
@ianz09 (211): oo – chan
The first part is similar to the word “wood”. The double ‘o’ sound. It’s from one of my favorite Animes.
@gabi319 (213): I think god put me on this earth to spread the message that you’re stupid but it seems you’re doing a good enough job on your own that I don’t need to point it out.
That was good.
222 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:07 am
@Adam (214): I don’t think so; he’s just being a extreme troll/religious zealot.
223 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:09 am
@Adam (219): Just an fyi…I’m a girl.
@63jax (220): See this list. Some idiot did deny it.
http://listverse.com/2009/11/04/top-10-people-robbed-of-the-nobel-prize/
224 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 10:09 am
@Dervis_khan (218): cool, well dont take what i said too personally (it seems you havent which is great). i just think you gotta brush up on your facts, so you can bolster your opinions. i disagree with alot of them, but i am still sitting here, giving you advice on how to make them stronger, am i stupid or just painfully fair? haha!
225 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 10:10 am
@gabi319 (213): Actually, I’m a homosexual but I contain my feelings because I don’t want to go to hell.
226 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:10 am
@oouchan (221): That ‘u’ threw me off. Well on that note, my username is pronounced ‘ee-in-zee-oh-nine’, I knew you were wondering that.
227 BeYeKind12
November 18th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Facts do not change, right? It is a fact if it does not change… How many THEORIES on this list change almost annually?
228 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:11 am
@ianz09 (226): Actually I was…pffft! Thanks for that.
229 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 10:12 am
@Adam (219): whoops! to be fair, if i spoke to you in person, i would still call you “man” or “dude”, its just a habit of mine that i developed while studying about gender roles actually haha.
@63jax (220): how can you be so caring towards the jews, but then spit venom at the gays and arabs? yea the fanatics are worthless but seriously, love your brothers and sisters…
230 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:15 am
@The Righteous one (225): So you go to hell if you’re gay? That’s new. It’s just something you’re born with; you can’t help it. You just proved your ignorance yet again.
231 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:15 am
@Adam (229): That’s fine. My daughter calls me Mom-dude, so it’s all good.
232 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 10:15 am
@Davy (222): yikes.
233 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:16 am
@The Righteous one (225): I’ll bet you are. People, I’m going to take the road less traveled and defend the troll. Let’s look at the facts: He/she clearly doesn’t know a whole lot. Who are we to judge a being of lesser intellect? He/she is attempting to get our goats. The economy anymore is very strained, milk and food are scarce. Can we blame him/her? And lastly, the getting of goats provides entertainment for our local troll. May we be damned to hell for denying a simple Internet user a few well-needed shits and grins, especially in this economy.
Oh, and to the Righteous One: If you lack the capacity to be smart, you are unintelligent. If you lack the motivation to be smart, you are stupid.
The more you know!
234 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 10:16 am
@oouchan (231): that is an AWESOME nickname for a mom.
235 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 10:17 am
@ianz09 (233): bravo!
236 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:17 am
@oouchan (228): Hey, I’m always here to help!
237 Wrichik
November 18th, 2009 at 10:17 am
@Adam
“8. I dont take issue with this comment, the 10 commandments are very basic rules to being a good person. ”
I thought Mr Khan seemed a bit confused as to who the ten commandments are attributed to. Jesus being the context, why did he choose to downplay the importance of the source of that which is ordinarily attributed to Moses ?
238 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:19 am
@Adam (229): I call everybody dude or man too. My girlfriend is currently “fartnugget”.
239 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:19 am
@ianz09 (233): ouch to The Righteous One!
240 gabi319
November 18th, 2009 at 10:20 am
@ianz09 (233): Who are we to judge a being of lesser intellect?
gabi319, that’s who
Can we blame him/her?
yes.
I’m going to take the road less traveled
anyone else watch Parks & Recreation?
Go ahead. More room on the low road for me.
241 Brilliant
November 18th, 2009 at 10:20 am
I got one:
How one should go about labelling pictures of cats doing funny things
242 youllforgetit
November 18th, 2009 at 10:21 am
I LOVE JESUS.
Ha.
243 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:22 am
@gabi319 (240): Just for the record, my comment was sarcastic, in case you didn’t pick up on that. But if you did, you clearly have a great loathing for all things troll. I think that affords you a golf-clap.
Claps softly in approval
244 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 10:22 am
@Davy (230): As I stated before, God made a mistake when he created gay people and now it is up to us, the gays, to keep his mistake hidden. God is counting on us and if we fail, we will be cast into hell.
245 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 10:23 am
@Wrichik (237): ask him… i could have nitpicked what he wrote alot more, such as what you just pointed out, but it got tiring and would have been redundant.
@ianz09 (238): that fuckin rules. you win best nickname of the day for sure.
246 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:24 am
@Brilliant (241): With proper spelling and grammar. Oh, wait, guess I lost that one. Kitteh lieks to nom.
Dumbest crap ever.
247 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:25 am
@Adam (245):
248 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:27 am
@The Righteous one (244): Sorry to break the news to you, but I don’t think you’re keeping ‘God’s mistake’ hidden. In comment 225 you said you were homosexual yourself.
249 undaunted warrior
November 18th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Enjoyed the list and comments
@oouchan(228) This is the first time , in a long time that Ihave seen you post more than 1 or 2 comments per day, mayby that pffft helps.(No pun intended I enjoy your comments on this site)
250 Happypants78
November 18th, 2009 at 10:29 am
This list should be renamed “10 things that anybody with the internet already knows.”
251 gabi319
November 18th, 2009 at 10:29 am
@ianz09 (243):
Yeah, I picked up on the sarcasm. I woke up in a sarcastic mood. Just getting it out of my system before I head to work. I don’t think the 4 year olds will appreciate it much.
Claps softly in approval
[raises her golfer's hat in her right hand and solemnly nods in acknowledgement]
252 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:29 am
@ianz09 (243): I second your clapping. gabi and I have had our share of trolls. This one isn’t even a blip on the radar.
@ianz09 (246): Don’t pick on the LOL cats. They crack me up. I agree with the spelling though. That crap drives me nuts.
I still stand by what I said earlier. We should add pirates and ninjas to this list. At least as an honorable mention.
253 oouchan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:31 am
@undaunted warrior (249): I have been so busy that it’s hard to keep up, but I’m back….for today at least.
254 Beelzebubba
November 18th, 2009 at 10:31 am
@the righteous one (244)- you’re a fucking idiot.
255 QDV
November 18th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Cartoon depictions of Islamic prophets should have been mentioned in #1: some (not all) proponents of a “religion of peace” oddly start congregating in mobs, chanting ‘Death!” to those doing the scribbling.
I’d be careful to not bring up the subject of “declawing” in any forum about cats. That one is easily an abortion equivalent in terms of drawing moths to flames.
In the US, we’ve got “legalization of drugs”, and if you’re not careful what you say about Ronald Reagan in some circles, well, let’s just say that some folks here treat him as if he was #8 (given that he single-handedly ended the Cold War, you know
.
If you really want to cause chaos, though, just go on Youtube, comment on any given AC/DC video, and don’t treat Bon Scott as if he was the guy in #8.
256 stelloscuro
November 18th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Ballacks, we are discussing these things, when we ever learn
257 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:41 am
@gabi319 (251): I don’t think the 4 year olds will appreciate it much.
Nah, they wouldn’t appreciate it, but sometimes the little snots deserve it.
@oouchan (252): Don’t pick on the LOL cats. They crack me up. I agree with the spelling though. That crap drives me nuts.
I like ‘em too, but sometimes the spelling is horrendous that by the time you get what it is trying to say, the joke is stale and not as funny as it should’ve been. Speaking of funny cats, though:
258 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 10:44 am
@Davy (248): You’re right, but in my defense it was necessary for me to expose myself so that my cause can be fully understood. And besides that, I am human and I do make mistakes. Just remember, hell awaits those who are openly gay.
259 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:46 am
@ianz09 (257): That video was hilarious!
260 slowboat
November 18th, 2009 at 10:48 am
…apparently you’ve never been to 4chan.
261 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 10:49 am
@Frenkie (151): Oh and btw Im proud to be a homo, and i love riding a huge penis.
We’ll be sure to add that to the list of things that you CAN discuss on the internet.
262 krypto092108
November 18th, 2009 at 10:49 am
@calm_incense:
I’m Canadian… And No, I’m not offended… Actually, I agree with you about the British and Canadians having total inferiority complexes…
I’ve seen those before…
263 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:50 am
My girlfriend loves lolcats!
264 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 10:52 am
@saber25 (102): Ya I know Iyam a retard.
Yes, we know.
265 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:54 am
@The Righteous one (258): Why do I even bother talking to you? I you want to think that gays who act openly go to hell, be my guest. I’m not gay and I don’t give a damn about how they act.
266 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 10:56 am
@Beelzebubba (254): On what do you base this conclusion? I’m just trying to save gays from the inferno regions.
267 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:56 am
As long as I don’t get ass-raped, that is.
268 Megg
November 18th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Could you imagine a world where we didn’t have a choice to believe the many different things that we believe? Or if we all had to side with ONE opinion or thought? Or if things were all black and white and left no room for discussion?
Even though, two opposing sides of one topic could go at it from now and forever without a sliver of a chance in persuading the other to change their mind, things are at least…interesting.
We could all be bland and agree with one another, but then there wouldn’t be 249 posts on this page. They’d all read “I agree”.
I think we all need to agree to disagree in order to keep peace because in spite of what you personally choose to believe, chances are…whomever you are…you’re probably a pretty cool person. You have friends, family, co-workers who enjoy being around you and I don’t think that just because someone has a different belief about something should automatically start a fire.
I think it could be solved with “good point, i respect your point of view, i understand you’re passionate about it and since you’ve shared, i will share mine.” But bashing, name calling, hating…whatever, is so juvenile.
269 krypto092108
November 18th, 2009 at 10:57 am
@Czzzazzz: In the US, Scientology is indeed a religion…
It has been since 1951, when a pseudoscientific text named Dianetics was published…
Since then, in that country alone, many people have lost their minds, lives, monies and properties to this ever growing gargantua of greed and corruption…
270 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 10:58 am
@Davy (265): *If you want*
271 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 11:03 am
@Davy (267): If you are “ass-raped” be content with the knoledge that your rapist is going to hell.
272 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 11:05 am
@Davy (198): flaming assholes
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t this once performed by Cirque du Soleil?
273 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Aside from the Holocausrt (only because it rarely comes up in my discussions with people) I talk, debate, and discuss all of these topics. These are issues all tied to the same basic conflict of good vs evil or for others “what is right and what is wrong.” Lately the line has been blurred by circumstance, but these are important topics. What makes these topics difficult: The people who want the line erased to justify an evil act that they commit or support (i.e. abortion, genocide, etc.) On the other side are people who know what is right and refuse to compromise in the face of what they know to be wrong. Sometimes they get desperate and appear “fanatical” when really most of that passionate. Others…can go off the deep end. That when it ceases to be about a cause and they become obsessed by their own personal doctrine and loose sight of the righteous cause they once represented. I love looking at the lists here, but sometimes the comments as well. Such an interesting community
274 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 11:09 am
@Maggot (272): haha funny stuff
275 Beelzebubba
November 18th, 2009 at 11:10 am
@ The Righteous one (266) – I base it on having read your posts. You say you’re gay but keeping it hidden and that will keep you out of hell. Idiot! Nobody, and I mean nobody, with a Christian faith would believe that staying in the closet is going to be your salvation.
You say “God made a mistake” and “now it is up to us, the gays, to keep his mistake hidden. God is counting on us and if we fail, we will be cast into hell”…..really? So God fucked up and wants you to be the patsy for it?
Fucking idiot.
276 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Can people please stop saying stupid shit like, ‘the ten commandments are a good simple code to live your life by’ i’ve noticed a couple of people voicing this view and it’s so fucking annoying.
@The Righteous one (266):
The world would be a better place without you. Seriously, if you died, this world would be better.
277 Tomo
November 18th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Maybe the title of the list should have been Top 10 things on which consensus can never be reached.
When I read the title I thought the list would be about things that if said on the internet would cause CIA or Mossad or MI6 to break down my door within 10 minutes and that would be the last anyone would hear from me.
278 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 11:19 am
@archiealt (276):
Calm down, archiealt. The ten commandments aren’t ‘stupid shit’. Whether you’re a Christian, atheist, or Jew, the ten commandments are good rules to live by.
And don’t do wishing death on people. We all know ‘the Righteous one’ is an ignorant troll.
279 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 11:20 am
@Beelzebubba (275): Well then, what must I do to keep from going to hell? The thought of it scares the dickens out of me! Although, I guess most of my friends will be there.
280 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 11:22 am
@The Righteous one (279): You’ve got friends?
281 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 11:25 am
@Davy (278): Whether you’re a Christian, atheist, or Jew, the ten commandments are good rules to live by.
Some are common sense morality things that most folks would already abide by. Others do not apply AT ALL to some people. To assume they do is what is annoying.
282 Jessy
November 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Just to toss it in there-
when did gays start hurting people? I never figured out why anyone should care what other consenting adults do alone at home. Even WITH the religious idea that they’ll go to Hell- how is it anyone else’s business?
That aside: anyone watch House this week? Pretty intense eh!
283 gabi319
November 18th, 2009 at 11:30 am
@Davy (278):
Problem is the ten commandments are of a Christian origin and atheists, Jews (and a number of other religions not mentioned in your comment) don’t follow the commandments as a code. To assume that the rest of us follow Christian rules (some are common sense behaviors of being kind to your fellow man but not ALL of them are) just makes it seem like everything is focused on Christianity.
284 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 11:31 am
@Davy (280): What have I done to earn these vicious attacks from you?
285 gabi319
November 18th, 2009 at 11:32 am
@Maggot (281):
People need to stop bothering me when I’m on LV. Or I need to refresh the screen before submitting.
lol, now we’re even.
286 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 11:33 am
@Maggot (281): Sorry. “Whether you’re a Christian, atheist, or Jew, MOST OF the ten commandments are good rules to live by.”
287 lrigD
November 18th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Interesting list… especially the comments, lol. Not what I’d expected to find when I read the title, but still.
To the person who said that Germans like to deny the holocaust (not sure who it was, I read over 200 comments xD): that’s pretty prejudiced. I’m Dutch (no, not German, but I daresay I have some knowledge of the country and its inhabitants) and the holocaust is still a huge deal in Germany (and the Netherlands). There is quite often news of a former Nazi, SS-man, NSB-man (Dutch fellow organisation of the NSDAP) has been caught and/or brought to justice.
As for the Germans, like someone said, it’s guilt. Even though it’s pretty wrong to blame the Germans nowadays, since many of them didn’t even live back then, and not all Germans were Nazis or symphatized(I know I screwed that word up) with Hitler. The role of guilty one has been drilled into them by pretty much everyone in the world.
And no, I am not saying the holocaust was right or anything like that. Just saying that the Germans nowadays are still victims of what happened over 60 years ago outside of their influence…
288 Gav
November 18th, 2009 at 11:41 am
None of these would be an issue if people would simply apply logic, reason and liberty to their thinking.
So it’s obvious that these will continue to be issues til the end of time.
289 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 11:43 am
@The Righteous one (284): You say most of your friends will go to hell. What is your basis for that? And since you’re so intensely religious, you ought to know that Jesus came to save sinners. Do I deserve to go to hell?
290 MommaDuck
November 18th, 2009 at 11:43 am
@ Ted – Simply…faith.
291 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 11:45 am
@220 63jax
“Who can be that stupid to deny the existence of holocaust?”
If you’ll look up a guy by the name of David Irving, you’ll find out pretty much all you need to know about the seedy and ultimately racist worldview of the Holocaust deniers. Mr. Irving considers himself a first rate historian and has written several nominally historical tomes including a scathing denunciation of the Firebombing of Dresden during late WWII.
Anyway, he adamantly denies the Holocaust ever happened and even went to court in England to prove it. He sued Hannah Arendnt (sp?) for libel because she wrote that his views were incorrect. In a rather sensational trial, the Holocaust was legally proven to have happened, but it hasn’t slowed Irving’s effluence of vitriol one whit.
292 Beelzebubba
November 18th, 2009 at 11:47 am
@ The Righteous one (279)
If you had read my original post to this list (#217, I think) you would see that I have a different view on faith and God than is taught by most religions. Your relationship with God is between you and him.
My point was not to educate you in the ways of salvation, but rather to point out your lousy arguments. Looking back at your posts, I’m starting to think you may just be baiting me (and others)with those lame arguments. I don’t believe that any semi-intelligent individual with an inclination towards the Christian faith would actually believe that hiding the fact that they are gay and blaming it on “Gods mistake” is a road to salvation.
293 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 11:47 am
@283 gabi
“the ten commandments are of a Christian origin”
Actually, the Ten Commandments are of Judaic origin. Granted, Christianity was built on top of Judaism, but the Commandments predate Christianity by a couple of thousand years.
294 MommaDuck
November 18th, 2009 at 11:51 am
@ Bang!(176) it takes “something” be it a human finger or some other mechanism, to make the gun work.
and yes, unfortunately, there are have been horrible tragedies that have occured from misuse of a firearm or perhaps faulty workings of a weapon, but a lot of accidents that happen with guns happen because of lack of eduction and respect for the weapon.
a gun doesn’t decide to pull it’s trigger, the person holding the dun decides that
295 jes
November 18th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Scratch @144
I was wondering why people just didn’t declare themselves on the actual list topics, then I scrolled down and saw that a few people had attempted to declare themselves. I thought about listing my position on the list topics, but I’d rather post my thoughts on yours!
Therefore, without further ado, I give you:
- The weather – We have crazed propaganda-esque weather men that will name any minor thunderstorm things like “super tornado storm blast 2008″, etc. I live in “tornado alley” in America. We have life-threatening storms several times per year. I take issue with dramatizing non-serious weather. Let me know if I should take precautions. Let me know if there’s a tornado. But do not try to scare me. I’m a big girl. I know what to do in case of inclement weather. I CANNOT STAND PEOPLE WHO HAVE IRRATIONAL FEAR OF THE WEATHER. Take your Xanax and shut up. Better yet, do off with yourself.
- Non-religiously inspired facial hair: GROSS. Facial hair = kissing a hairy vagina, only more prickly and disgusting version. Thank about it. Hair. Lips. YUCK.
- Pizza: I prefer thin and crispy crust or very thick crust. I hate hand tossed, in between, mushy crust pizza. I know people who eat pizza without cheese. I have nothing against it. My preference is light sauce and a ton of cheese, the more varieties the better.
- The manufacturing of ceramics in early nineteenth century England: I presently have no opinion on this. Need more information.
- Hats: I kinda like the idea of hats. Do they serve a purpose? In most cases, probably not. They are either a hit or a miss, just like some people look good with glasses and others do not. Some styles of glasses are nice and others are not.
- The benefits and disadvantages in the use of mechanical cataloguing in archives: I don’t think you can overlook the possibility of error for grammar, spelling, etc.
- Generic writing implements. I PREFER PENCILS OVER PENS ANY DAY!
I’d like to add a topic: Hoodies.
I don’t wear “hoodies.” (shirts with a hood attached at the top – probably a very American clothing option) In fact, I refuse to purchase them and have now mutilated the last one in my closet to conform with my no-hoodie policy. My newly hoodless sweatshirts look totally 80′s, and I can finally wear them! (Seriously, who wants to walk around with a hump of useless fabric on their back? It’s ugly. If you live in the South (USA) as I do, you likely have no real need for a hoodie that could not otherwise be solved by ala carte winter head warming gear. Like a “hat” or “earmuffs”?
Regarding the list topics: I’m a liberal, Catholic, gun-owner that loves my Middle-Eastern friends who have had abortions as well as my gay friends. I think the Holocaust was atrocious. The second amendment could probably be banned in favor of a drivers license type system based on demonstrating responsibility and knowledge. In practice, gun ownership is more or less a privilege rather than a right anyway. Marriage is a religious term of art and therefore the government should never recognize it. All “marriages,” whether homo or hetero, should be just plain civil unions. No, I don’t believe in incest, and I don’t believe in child molesting. Abortion is a choice, as is religion. If we all have free will and must earn our way into heaven or nirvana or wherever by our good deeds, you cannot say someone did a good deed by not having an abortion when there was no choice afforded. Instead, it should be made available, you can choose not to have one, and then you can go on with your merry pro-life self. If you have an abortion, for whatever reason, that should be between you and whoever or whatever holds you accountable. Religion: if I want to go to New York, I can take a bus, plane, boat, train, boat or car. No matter which one I choose, I’m using transportation. I choose Catholicism, others choose other religions. I by no means believe you must have a religion to get into “heaven.” And, if heaven is a Southern Baptist church service 24/7, I want no part in it. Jesus is cool, but I’m more of a God the Father kind of girl. Politics: hmmm… I am neither republican nor democrat. I’d love a hybrid that’s fiscally conservative (no welfare or handouts) and socially liberal (pro-choice). I find it odd that people are both pro-life and anti-universal healthcare. You must bring that baby into the world but once he’s here, he’s on his own. Doesn’t make sense to me. I also don’t understand people that think vaccinations are a conspiracy but don’t believe 9/11 was a conspiracy. It’s one or the other, people. Evolution: there’s a little of both. So far as I’m aware, rocks don’t grow arms and walk around because they’ve evolved that way.
296 Yawyack
November 18th, 2009 at 11:52 am
I was gonna write a similar list on The Ten Most Controversial Subjects to Discuss on Listverse. And I was gonna have Randall as number 1. For some reason every thread always ends up in a debate between his detractors and fans.
I personally would have had WW2 on instead of the holocaust. Many random debates I have had with Americans have resulted in a comment of “You would be speaking German if it wasn‘t for us”. Which of course my reply is always “And you would be speaking French if it wasn‘t for Britain”. Hee hee, that one always annoys them.
Also, how isn’t US foreign policy on here? That always turns into a debate.
(24) Bearglove
&
(115) Tony
Erm, there is no debate about whether Jesus was real or not. Its an historical fact that he indeed did. It’s the stories of his actions and divinity that are in question.
(133) oouchan
Ninjas. http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm
(151) Frenkie
Greatest comment ever!
297 MommaDuck
November 18th, 2009 at 11:52 am
sorry I meant gun…obviously
298 allison
November 18th, 2009 at 11:52 am
What about marijuana laws? I have seen some HEATED debates over that issue. It can get pretty ugly (and in some cases, downright stupid). Each side has valid points.
As to this list, wow. Some really polarizing subjects, but there’s literally nothing one can do about that. People are going to have their views, defend their views, and dig in their heels. Fact of humanity, I guess.
Great list, always a fan
299 QDV
November 18th, 2009 at 11:52 am
@Shannon (291):
There’s a great bookby Michael Shermer, called “Why People Believe Weird Things” that I’d recommend (in addition to what you said). He covers Holocaust denial, and basically, it’s not that the deniers claim that nobody died, but rather, it’s that there’s no signed document by Hitler saying “Exterminate there Jews,” therefore, there was no Final Solution, and hey, bad things happen during wars, why should the Germans be treated any differently?
300 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 11:53 am
@Davy (278):
Have you ever actually read the Ten Commandments?
Let’s look at them shall we?
1 No other Gods Before Me
2 No graven images
3 No blasphemy
4 Don’t work on sundays
These first four are just fucking ridiculous. This is Gods big time to shine, his ten great rules that define him as a deity and he chooses these as his first four?
Forbidding the practice of all other non-Judeo-Christian religions, even shit like Jainism. No religious art, and no saying things like ‘for Christ sake’ and no working on Sundays (why?) all under punishment of death…..right. Lets crack on.
5 Respect your father and mother
6 No murder
7 No fucking around
8 No stealing
9 No lies
Even though these 5 do deal with morality, they are still idiotic. Number 5, children respect there parents no matter what, its biological, and it’s not just present in humans. The other four are also of no use to anyone. It’s a scientific fact that, in children, moral emotions precede exposure to scripture. Kids already have a dislike of cruelty and violence and understand things like ‘fair-play’ long before they are shown the nonsense ramblings of the Bible. It is even thought that these emotions pre-date humanity. Some studies have shown that these types of emotions are present in some primates, obviously in a less defined form, but none the less. Animals aren’t big on murder and theft, and i’m pretty sure they’ve never read the Bible.
10 No coveting your neighbours house, wife, servant, ox or ass.
Hardly a grand finally I think you’ll agree. If this is His big ending and all he can think of is ‘Don’t long for you neighbour’s servant’, then i’m not to sure he’s all that wise. There are much better scriptures with much better moral advice.
So no, i’m not to big on The Ten Commandments.
301 Petie
November 18th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Wait a minute… Here’s the Top 10 List for things not to discuss online, but yet here we discussing said items.
302 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 11:54 am
300
303 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Damn
304 flgh
November 18th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Fail list!
Seriously, the only thing that’s forbidden to discuss online is pro-pedophilia
Heck, you can discuss even politics on the internet IN CHINA
305 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
@archiealt (299): i’m one of the people who said the commandments were good things to live by, and you’ve proven me wrong. do i agree that they all are designed to guide you towards peace? yes i do…which is probably what i should have said, and what Davy means…. but you are correct, the 10 commandments are trash.
306 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
@archiealt (299): I hold to my word: “Most of the ten commandments are good rules to live by”. I said that because they are, even though just about no one (me included) follows them.
307 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
@Davy (305): my apologies for speaking for you if i am wrong.
308 Spacegrass
November 18th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
It’s perfectly okay to with discuss these things when you’re in an online community of reasonable and intelligent people; in other words, never.
309 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
@archiealt (299):
…okay..I see your point for most of this, but by your reasoning then, since all of use are born with this innate sense of knowing killing is bad, stealing is wrong, blah blah blah, should we just get rid of the laws preventing it? I mean, the 10 commandments are there as God’s laws. I understand why you would think the first four are a bit narcissistic, and even why the last one is a bit of a fail for an ending, but at least 6 and 8 are fair. Otherwise our laws to prevent them are just trash as well. 6,7, and 9 I’ll go with you on, those are a bit on the obvious side, I just tend to think it’s more of reinforcement? Kinda like how a parent reinforces the sense that those things are wrong in their kid.
310 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
*5,7, and 9 my bad ^_^;
311 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
@The Righteous one (167): God does not make mistakes. If that were so, the universe would collapse. Thats fact. Take responsibility and stop blaming God for your shame. Closeting yourself has nothing to do with how God made you different. He made us all with free will and you freely choose to be gay and remain quiet. A man can steal and never be caught but he is still a theif in God’s eyes. Ultimately, we all fall short in some way and need God’s mercy and salvation. Both come in the form of Jesus Christ. You hide your feelings because you fear hell, but sin in secret is still sin. God loves you dearly and can free you from it, but first you have to admit to Him that you know you have sinned and believe that Christ’s sacrifice was for the remission of your wrong doings, all of them. I hope that helps and truly pray you find your way to God.
312 Nauplius
November 18th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
@archiealt (299): So no, i’m not to big on The Ten Commandments
So you like to lie, steal, fuck around, murder, and disrespect your parents then?
313 Megg
November 18th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Pretty sure you can go ahead and add “The 10 Commandments” to this list as honerable mention as it seems to be the topic of conversation as of the last 150+ comments…
314 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
@Disciple (310): “God does not make mistakes.” Good point.
315 Gauldar
November 18th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
@Petie (300):
I think that may be the point of the list. Ask people not to do something on the internet, and they probably will do it unless it goes against their own personal beliefs. I personally talk about all these issues freely because many of these issues involve specific opinions, many of which people feel the need to defend faithfully. In my opinion, nothing is sacred, some things are just more coveted then others.
316 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
you freely choose to be gay
Lol, you’re an idiot. But let’s not discuss that online…
317 Chanchita
November 18th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
@ TJ (39) You sure love apostrophes.
318 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
@Gauldar 314
“nothing is sacred”
You are WRONG, Sir! Ice cream, particularly the Heaven on a cone that is Pistachio Almond Cream, is SACRED! It allows the world to go round. How anything got done before the invention of Ice Cream is beyond me.
319 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
@Davy (313): if i sensed the sarcasm properly, consider me LOLing.
320 redant
November 18th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Good list despite my strong disagreement with this list’s premise. I would hope all these topic are discussed. People who avoid these topic may think there being polite but in fact are promoting close-mindedness, ignorance and censorship.
One more thing the broader term belief may be a more accurate term then religion for you final entry. Your statement “more people have died in the name of God —- then all other causes combined” would be true if that god is one of greed for land and power.
Belief drive us all for good or for bad. No man is truly objective.
321 PizzaTheHut
November 18th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
@jes (295): I had to re-read your post, I did not believe what I was reading. You prefer PENCILS over PENS? YOU! You! are what’s wrong with society today. PENS are the EVOLUTION of writing instruments! PENCILS are obsolete. Do you drive around in a wagon? NO! You drive a car. I bet you don’t even know HOW to use a PEN! Or are you AFRAID of PENS!?! You cannot erase a PEN!
You crispy, thin crust people lover. I swear, if you were here in person, I would make you eat a half baked, thick crust, cheeseless pizza!
Don’t even get me started on mechanical cataloguing in archives. I almost got in a fist-fight last time I discussed that.
322 PizzaTheHut
November 18th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
@PizzaTheHut (320): Correction -
“You crispy, thin crust people lover” should read “You crispy, thin crust pizza lover”. I must have mistyped it while I was getting emotional.
323 gabi319
November 18th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
@Nauplius (311): So you like to lie, steal, fuck around, murder, and disrespect your parents then?
Just because someone doesn’t adhere to the Ten Commandments doesn’t mean they are morally corrupt. Some people DO have other things in their life to live by. Again, this is making the assumption that EVERY moral code began with the Ten Commandments or that aN individual’s morality cannot subsist WITHOUT it.
Re: unRighteous One
As pointed out before, he/she’s a troll. Scratch your claws on the thing if you want but I seriously doubt he/she is gay – in the closet or out of it, next to the pantry or even down the hall from the linen closet.
324 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
@Maggot (315): I can’t see what is idiotic about that.
325 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
@Disciple (323): I know.
326 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
@Maggot (324): Apparently you can’t explain it either.
327 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
@Disciple (310): I think I see what you are saying. If I pray hard enough, God will take my homosexual tendencies away from me. I will no longer have the urge to be with men. But, I have already prayed for this day and night and I feel no different. I do refrain from carrying out the actual act but I fear my thoughts are enough to condemn me to hell.
328 14gotmyMANTRA
November 18th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
#9: Marry me?
Great list, if only people’d stick to it.
329 dazza
November 18th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
pretty ironic your disscussing subjects online which you said shouldnt be disscused online
330 General Tits Von Chodehoffen
November 18th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Butt sex should be on the list
331 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
@The Righteous one (326): Prayer with belief is a great start and temptation hits us all. Even heterosexual lust is still a sin. Fasting is another way to strengthen your faith that God can and will save you. It doesn’t even have to be from food (though it is effective), just refrain from something you feel prevents you from drawing closer to God and use that time to ask Him for more strength. Speak it aloud with confidence and belief in the face of temptation. Don’t give up and don’t let the devil rob you of your salvation. Any feeling of guilt, doubt, hopelessness or self-condemnation will break your faith down. Christ can pull you out of any darkness, just believe. I also suggest finding a good church. You know a good church as one that does not judge you for your sin, but supports you in being free from it, as all of us have been lost at one time
332 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
@dazza (328): Ironic and intentional I’m sure lol
333 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
How did the Ten Commandments end up spurring all this sass-talk?
Anyway, look—the Ten Commandments are historically important and not to be dissed overly much, because they were the first *codification* of a moral law code that we know of. True, the world before the Ten Commandments probably wasn’t just some free-for-all of murder and mayhem, and certainly the commandments themselves didn’t change the world as a whole. But let’s not kid ourselves that the ancient world wasn’t a brutal, lawless place in many a land–it was. Of course, it wasn’t really that the commandments or Hebraic Law in general really altered this materially; it’s just that for the first time in human history, there was a statement of clear rights and wrongs on which laws could be hung, structured, and built. The code itself isn’t what matters so much—it’s the fact of it that matters. This goes, too, for Hammurabi’s code and the law codes of Greece and Rome. It isn’t that we still cleave to “an eye for an eye,” but we recognize that the structuring and codification of laws was a necessary step to civilization.
As actual legal code today, the Ten Commandments are practically worthless, of course—we of course agree that murder and stealing are wrong, but the rest of the commandments are mostly viewed as moral/spiritual guides for the proper way to live life. Whether you choose to heed them or not, you have to agree that some of the commandments still have moral value. Coveting the possessions of another is not a constructive thing to do with your time and energy (Buddha and Jesus would agree) and in a sense this is the same thing as removing desire from oneself, as per the Buddhists.
Surely we don’t care about “graven images” and such nowadays, but we have to remember that the idea of “the sacred” is something still very much inherent in our collective psyche. Probably we need it—and no doubt our civilization would be poorer without it–in fact, we can have little doubt that discarding with the concept of “sacred” is one of the things that leads a civilization down the road towards barbarism.
Now, in tougher, more primitive times, you require stiff, certain, and unambiguous laws about what is “sacred” and what is not—because a lawless, wild people, we tend to think, have to have things more strict in order to get the message. Today we no longer require this—we have a more evolved moral code in our minds—or so we like to think. We’ve lived with civilization, on and off, for at least 3000 years now. So our idea of what is sacred has loosened considerably. But that doesn’t negate the inherent need within us for a sense of the sacrosanct, even if it’s only loosely defined.
We have a highly evolved legal code; but that code has its roots in, among other things, the Ten Commandments. So yes, they were important…. but no, to claim you live your life by them–ALL of them—today is pretty silly. Perhaps some do, but they’d have to be a seriously small minority.
334 Jaryuki
November 18th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
The evolution part (origins of man) is an utter failure on this list. There really is no competition – the “controversory” only exists in the fundamentalists’ minds. (As does the “proof of creation”.)
I really don’t see why these shouldn’t be discussed. I can understand this list if it were a joke but I’m really not sure about that..
Many of these things should be talked about in public. Though I admit that the internet is a batshit crazy place so I prefer to take my conversations elsewhere…
335 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
@Disciple (329): The only way I can reconcile this is to conclude that god has just simply made a mistake, just like a birth defect. Or maybe he just wishes me to go to hell. I mean somebody has to go otherwise there would be no purpose in having a hell.
336 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
@Randall (332):
Seriously…you need to right a book on the ancient world. I would be on that like flies on a trash can full of fruit.
In fact, the ten commandments were meant for the ancient world and it’s harsh ways. In the New Testament Jesus comes and preaches a revision of the Ten Commandments in the form of The Beatitudes. These were much less morally strict, and instead of commands they were more of suggestions and guidelines in way to help you to heaven. There’s a stark difference between the God in the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament in the fact that his ways of helping people changed drastically. Less large scale miracles, more small scale ones here and there. Less being destructive and being angry, more being loving and forgiving. This change was a very important theme to the Bible, especially when reinforced with the Beatitudes, and God’s new outlook on how to make humanity grow more morally. Since society during that period was much less harsh during that time, he created a new form of commandments, that were less command, more advice.
337 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
@Jaryuki (333):
i in no way believe creationism, however, lets not be hasty…science is about proof, and as of Nov 18 2009, the science community has neither proven, nor disproven the existence of a “creator”. is it unlikely? yes. but lets not do science the injustice of treating it like its any other belief system… it exists based on facts and proof, and until it can prove or disprove a creation, lets not lie and pretend it has or hasnt.
338 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
@renegade01 (334):
Thanks. We’ll see.
339 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
335 Adam
Excellent point, Adam. In fact, I’ve heard it argued that based solely on semantics, it is logically impossible for anyone to be an atheist because the a- prefix means “no” so to be an atheist would imply an absolute knowledge of the existence or nonexistence of God. Since such knowledge is, by definition, impossible, any person lies somewhere along a spectrum of agnosticism. The most hard-shell skeptic, if he is honest, must acknowledge the possibility, however infinitesimally small he may feel it to be, that in a universe as vast as ours, a Creator may very well exist. Also, at the other end of the spectrum, the most ardent true-believer must also acknowledge the possibility, however infinitesimally small she may feel it to be, that in a universe as vast as ours, a Creator may very well NOT exist.
To go out and look up at the sky on a clear night and see the bajillion stars that are visible with the naked eye, let alone the mega-bajillion more we cannot see, and suppose that our finite minds have a complete grasp of how everything works and fits together in the vastness of the universe is, to me, the height of intellectual arrogance, and yet, there are those that maintain just such a position and they lie at either end of the agnostic spectrum.
340 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
@The Righteous one (333): Any many scientists have tried, there is no gene/defect that turns a person gay. God does love you, that’s why Christ was sent as a sacrifice for your sins (and mine, and everyone’s.) That is your reconciliation awaiting a whole-hearted acceptance from you. He doesn’t want you to go to hell. Hell was made for satan and his fallen (Matthew 25:41), not for humans. Unfortunetly because mankind sinned and followed in wicked footsteps, that is where those who die in sin go as well. We all need salvation and ALL can have it. As long as you are alive, there is time to change and let Christ save you.
341 segues
November 18th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Okay list, but not what I was expecting.
As far as the items on the list are concerned, in my extended family we have a rule (well, I instituted it because I was tired of the blood and guts fights every time we got together) that we do not discuss politics or religion. Every thing else is fair game because we pretty much agree on every thing else.
342 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
@Disciple (324): Apparently you can’t explain it either.
Not in a way that your deaf, bigoted, and proselytizing ears would accept.
343 mom424
November 18th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
@archiealt (298): I disagree; I believe the 10th commandment to be the most important. In fact almost makes all the others obsolete. To covet is to “desire what belongs to another, inordinately or culpably”. If you follow the last commandment the others are unnecessary; even murder is the result of coveting – a life in this instance.
344 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
@Disciple (338): Then why am I gay when I don’t want to be? I want to be heterosexual, but I have absolutely no interest in women in a sexual sense. What is it that causes this?
345 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
@Maggot (340):
I frankly doubt that this is real, but I’m (mildly) mesmerized by the sheer pageantry of it.
346 Nemiga
November 18th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Cool list, liked it very much!
347 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
@Adam (335): St. Thomas Aquinas
Argument of the unmoved mover
Some things are moved.
Everything that is moving is moved by a mover.
An infinite regress of movers is impossible.
Therefore, there is an unmoved mover from whom all motion proceeds.
This mover is what we call God.
Argument of the first cause
Some things are caused.
Everything that is caused is caused by something else.
An infinite regress of causation is impossible.
Therefore, there must be an uncaused cause of all that is caused.
This causer is what we call God.
Argument from contingency
Many things in the universe may either exist or not exist. Such things are called contingent beings.
It is impossible for everything in the universe to be contingent, for then there would be a time when nothing existed, and so nothing would exist now, since there would be nothing to bring anything into existence, which is clearly false.
Therefore, there must be a necessary being whose existence is not contingent on any other being or beings.
This being is whom we call God.
Argument from degree
Varying perfections of varying degrees may be found throughout the universe.
These degrees assume the existence of an ultimate standard of perfection.
Therefore, perfection must have a pinnacle.
This pinnacle is whom we call God.
Argument from Teleology
All natural bodies in the world act toward ends.
These objects are in themselves unintelligent.
Acting toward an end is characteristic of intelligence.
Therefore, there exists an intelligent being that guides all natural bodies toward their ends.
This being is whom we call God.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm
“It is a great trick of atheists to make people believe that you can’t believe without empirical evidence – but that is just what they do in relation to many things. In life we accept many things based only on reason – there is no reason that we should not base our belief in the existence of God on this very same evidence – and it is proof – it isn’t just speculation or theory; logical arguments that are valid in form and matter give us truthful conclusions.”
No, I did not make up the last paragraph, hence the quotes. I’ll cite the source at a later time, with permission.
348 mom424
November 18th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
@Maggot (340): Rather than feed the idiots (and there are a few today eh?) lets try and educate them. Homosexuality is caused by, or at the very least influenced by, testosterone levels present in the mother during fetal development. An increase in testosterone caused by stress (the largest study I have seen involved women pregnant during the blitz of London/UK) or what-have-you at a specific time during gestation results in a higher incidence of homosexuality.
I knew it already anyway – It’s always the mother’s fault.
349 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
@Randall (343): “sheer pageantry” lol
I think you are right…sounds like one poster having a fake convo with himself.
350 Mickey
November 18th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Great List! But here are some FACTS to consider.
1. The Middleast: The U.S. has a solution for the Middleast. It’s called the “Stealth Bomber”
2. Re: Homosexuality: is normal. If it weren’t there wouldn’t be soo many of them. Everyday you look up a new one comes out. Doogie Howser is Gay?! Geeez!
3. Race Relations: Everyone knows that the Black Man is Superior. He can do anything in a classroom that any other man can. But the fact that he is physically superior make hims #1 (See: MLB, NFL, NBA, US/Jamica Sprint Teams)
4. Gun Control: “Gun control! Shun Control!!” We oughts all go make to “Packing Iron” like in the old west. Suspecting criminals would think twice on the idea that thier might be gun play.
5. Religion: Chatholic is the #1 Religeon. Worlds largest religeous organization, Many locations to serve you (They get you in, blessed, and back out on the street in less that an hour!), etc.. They even got a “Hall of Fame” (See Sainthood)
Thank You!
351 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
@Maggot (347):
Well that, or “Righteous one” is having a laugh at “Disciple’s” expense… (if so, sorry to spoil the game).
If real, the sadness of it is almost too much to bear…
352 Yawyack
November 18th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
@oouchan (132):
Ninjas. http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm
353 astraya
November 18th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Pens are better than pencils because the pen is mightier than the sword. The sword is obviously better than the pencil. Also “The penis mightier than the sword” is funny.
Has anyone, ever, in the history of online discussion, ever – gasp – changed their mind about something – anything – as a result of reading anything any other poster has said?
or
Has anyone, ever, in the history of online discussion, ever – gasp – come out of an online discussion feeling vindication and reinforced in their position and utterly convinced of the other’s/others’ stupidity?
Just wondering.
354 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
@Maggot (340): That must be your “intellectual” way of saying I am incapable of understanding more of your sarcasm and unprovoked insults. Do you have anything constructive to say?
355 KK
November 18th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
356 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
@mom424 (346): lets try and educate them.
You’re a bigger person than I, mom. Good luck with that.
357 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
@astraya (350): Has anyone, ever, in the history of online discussion, ever – gasp – come out of an online discussion feeling vindication and reinforced in their position and utterly convinced of the other’s/others’ stupidity?
Probably, but that is most likely more to do with pride, arrogance, and ignorance than with the argument itself, I imagine.
358 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
@astraya (350):
“Has anyone, ever, in the history of online discussion, ever – gasp – come out of an online discussion feeling vindication and reinforced in their position and utterly convinced of the other’s/others’ stupidity?”
All the time. Whatever do you mean?
359 Brian
November 18th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Should be titled “Top 10 Things You Should Never Discuss While Drinking”
360 Disc Huker
November 18th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
@renegade01 (334): that is an extreme over-simplification of looking at the differences between the OT and the NT.
there are plenty of example of NT “harshness”, see John 10 where Christ said the Pharisee’s father was the devil for example, and of OT “mercy”, see the book of Hosea for example.
and Jesus didn’t “revise” the decalogue, he actually made it more stringent with the “you have heard…but i say” statements of matthew 5.
Christ summarizes all of the law of the OT, much more than the decalogue, by saying basically, love God and love others. he says ALL of the law and the prophets, which encompassed every sort of revelation that God had given to man, were summariezed in these two commands.
the NT reveals that the purpose of the Law was to be a “teacher unto Christ”. meaning that the reality of not being able to keep the whole law simply revealed our need of a Savior.
he reveals the problem, our need, and shows himself to be the solution in that he WAS able to keep the whole law on our behalf.
i wanted to say all this because the Bible is one unified story of God choosing a people for Himself, those people continually rebelling and God continuing to forgive and draw them in love. it is not a story in two halves where God is some capricious, angry kid in the OT and then some tree hugger in the NT. (not that you said this exactly)
361 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
@mom424 (346):
Don’t feel bad Mom! You can blame the father if your baby isn’t the gender you were hoping for. Oh! and if your son has a chromosomal disease found on the ‘Y’. In that case blame away
@astraya (350):
Have you never read a Randall-based rant? He comes out of those bad boys convinced of his opponent’s stupidity all of the time lol
362 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
@Disc Huker (357):
Haha no worries bro, I’ll openly admit it was a gross overly simplistic version. However just the basics. I was pressed for time..accursed spanish class.
363 jes
November 18th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
@PizzaTheHut(319) (320): After reading your post, I had to close my LAW OFFICE door because I literally started “laughing out loud;” though, I will admit, I was NOT rolling on the floor with laughter. Picture me sitting in my tall, leather swivel-chair in my office that has many leather-bound books and smells of rich mahogany.
I say we spoof this argument to the fullest.
My first disagreement with your “response” to my post is thus: I DO like thick crust pizza. CAN’T YOU READ?
Secondly, I do use pens to sign various important legal documents. Always in blue, never black. Pencils give me the friction I crave. I like to press the paper as I’m writing; pens tear wholes in my legal pad. Further, if we are speaking of evolution, mechanical writing utensils are completely obsolete with the invention of the keyboard. So long as I am forced to use paper (made from a renewable resource), I’m going to be using archaic pencils (also made from a renewable resource) to jot my important ideas versus using pens that cannot erase themselves and wind up as non-biodegradable trash in a landfill. Alas, you may wonder, if I am so perfect, what need have I for erasing my penmanship? The answer, dear pizza boy is this: I use pencils as often as I would like because they are, after all, a mechanical writing utensil that is by evolutionary standards obsolete.
So take that, you facial hair sporting, hat wearing, lactose intolerant, archivist – pizza boy. (I call you a boy because I prefer men over women any day.) What? No argument regarding lips and hair?
Sounds like you’re the one that’s “half-baked.”
364 callie19
November 18th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Randall-
You’re on a witty roll today. It’s days like these I long for our wine and cheese picnic….
365 get a clue
November 18th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
@ianz09
God is love.
Love is blind.
Stevie Wonder is blind.
Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
There. So much for your ridiculously over-simplistic ‘reasoning’ skills. That was an adorable post, but it proves nothing…except how people desperate to cling to magic will embrace any facile dogma tossed their way. To start down a logical path and decide you’ve ended debate by simply stating “We call that God” is just embarrassing. It reminds me of the New Yorker cartoon wherein 2 scientists are working out a large and complex formula on a blackboard and in the middle, just when it gets complicated, one scientist has simply written, “and then some other stuff happened” in order to rush the process to reach a conclusion. Intelligent people get the joke.
366 jes
November 18th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
@astraya (350): To mix the two lists, I’m certain that lesbians would say that the penis is obsolete. I’d wager that gun lovers would argue that the sword, too, is obsolete.
Regarding pencils, see my discussion @(360), which I should have CC’d you on. Apologies.
I would like to add that without pencils, how else would you keep up with your mini-golf score? Wait! Mini-golf pencils have no eraser. Nevermind. Scratch that. (no pun intended)
367 Adam
November 18th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
@ianz09 (345):
@Shannon (337):
thanks for backing me up on that point guys… i find myself having to bring that point up alot… i consider myself agnostic, and often find “athiests” talking to me about how wrong they think everyone else is, and i always have to point out… “well, how do you KNOW youre right?”
they hate it.
i believe in science, and ill leave it at this… a quote from the great Carl Sagan…
“An atheist has to know a lot more than I know.”
368 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
@jes (363):
Life was not meant to be erased.
Which I suppose is more proof of the pencil’s inferiority.
Death is permanent; ink is permanent. When we accept this, we’ll start living and writing the way we were meant to.
But wait!! INK ERASERS!! WHITEOUT!!!!
Shit. The only conclusion we can come to is that God is dead.
369 Skydiver
November 18th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Evolution vs. Creation
“Each side has reams of data and boatloads of facts to back up its position”
What a load of shit.
370 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
@callie19 (361):
I have bronchitis. Illness makes me whackier in the head.
371 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
@Disciple (338): Did you see posting 346? Apparently homosexuality is out of my hands! It was determined before I was even born. This makes me feel much better. I wonder if God will still punish me.
372 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
@get a clue (362):
“In fact, Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century proved God’s existence through the use of reason. Just because God is immaterial doesn’t mean that we can’t prove his existence through logic. It is very unfortunate these days that people have accepted the atheistic idea that God’s existence (and – if you follow modern corrupt philosophy, the existence of anything) can’t be proven. Here are Thomas’s five proofs – note that no one has successfully found fault in these five arguments. People like Richard Dawkins have tried very hard to but they ultimately end up creating strawmen and ignore the actual argument Thomas makes. Each of these arguments alone is sufficient to prove God’s existence – there just happen to be five that Aquinas wrote.”
Use your superior logic to deny these. Do not ‘create strawmen’, stick to the point, address each answer individually, and shut them down like you know you can. I will then not only never argue with you ever again, I will back you up in your constant anti-religion battle.
373 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
@Randall (367): umm right…
374 Fred Flinstone
November 18th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
What a SNAKEPIT – if this is the future we’re screwed.
375 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
@The Righteous one (368): So you still have this idea that God will punish homosexuals. Ha
376 get a clue
November 18th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
@ianz09
Well, OK. See, I’ll type this slowly so maybe you can keep up. All you’ve done is cut and paste a paragraph. That the paragraph includes such phrases as “in fact” and “proved” is simply an example of how well you cut and paste, and not proof of anything. Your two posts are simply long-winded extensions of a phrase a few of my right-wing friends spout whenever physics or math or other realities get in the way of their beliefs, “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.”
That’s nice. I’m happy for you. But spouting such nonsense removes you from reasoned debate, let alone adult conversation. That you don’t see your ‘evidence’ for what it is speaks to your intellectual immaturity, and that can only be fixed by you continuing your education…as opposed to simply shoring up that which you cling to with the textual equivalent of putting your hands on your hips and saying, “I know for a fact…..”
I already crushed the original 5, but of course you missed it with my first post. You’ll just have to go back and study it until you get it. That’s your problem, not mine. Good luck.
377 barlow
November 18th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
If this is a list of thing that shouldn’t be discussed on the Internet, why is there is 372 comments.
378 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
@Disciple (351): Do you have anything constructive to say?
With regard to orientation, people don’t “choose” what to be. They just are. Actions are choices, but inner self is innate. Is that what is it you want to hear, zealot?
379 Scratch
November 18th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
@jes (294)
I live in Canada and we have rather unremarkable weather that stirs about as much controversy as menu changes at our national donut chain. That is, you’ll hear people grumble and that’s about it. I did not take over-dramatic weathermen in the tornado belt into account.
I also did not take into account your rather striking metaphor between facial hair and kissing a hairy vagina. I will never see facial hair the same way again. I will also never . . uh, nevermind.
Cheeseless pizza is like a French movie I saw once. The cinematography was striking, but absolutely nothing happened. What I’m trying to say is that cheeseless pizza is like a French movie without a plot. I had another simile in mind, but it was a bit much after mentioning a hairy vagina in the previous point.
I’m glad my point on the manufacturing of ceramics in early nineteenth century England still stands. Boo yah.
Hats. Agreed.
As for hoodies, I specifically didn’t mention them because I anticipated an anti-hoody backlash from a pro-eighties sweatshirt wearer such as yourself. Also, they have been linked to those guys who skulk around the main bus terminal at night asking for an extra ten dollars so that they can make it to their family in the next city. And finally, “hoody” sounds an awful lot like “hood”, which is another word for criminal and I’m firmly against criminality – which is also an area of controversy.
@Pizzathehut (319)
You and Jes have utterly annihilated the point I was trying to make about the uncontroversial nature of generic writing instruments and the mechanical catologuing of archives. Not only that, you’ve managed to use the word “penis” thereby inspiring jes to use the word “lesbian” – which brings us to point number 9 of the 10 things you should never discuss online.
If only I had seen how closed generic writing implements were linked to homosexuality.
I am a failure.
380 Scratch
November 18th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
*closely
381 astraya
November 18th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
@ Randall (355):
‘@astraya (350):
“Has anyone, ever, in the history of online discussion, ever – gasp – come out of an online discussion feeling vindication and reinforced in their position and utterly convinced of the other’s/others’ stupidity?”
All the time. Whatever do you mean?’
Really? I am obviously too trusting of the goodness of human nature.
@ renegade01 (358):
‘@astraya (350):
Have you never read a Randall-based rant? He comes out of those bad boys convinced of his opponent’s stupidity all of the time lol’
Really? I’m sorry. I missed that.
382 jon
November 18th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
religion blows
383 Anonymous
November 18th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
In reality, this list should say, “Ten things that should never be discussed again outside of a classroom discussion.”
384 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
@The Righteous one (342): All sin has a single spiritual origin and atagonizer. I don’t know you personally so I can only guess a cause, but if you know that a homosexual desire is wrong it’s possible that desire stemmed from another sin you may have struggled with. If it was a sexual sin of any kind that would lead to it the quickest, but ultimately this one seems to be the one that causes you the greatest amount of confusion and seperation from God. It’s even easier to get confused because today’s world would have you believe it is a natural and biological occurance when its not.
385 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
@get a clue (373):
You are by far the most entertaining thing on this website at the moment. Well done.
‘Therefore Stevie Wonder is God’
Very funny, again well done.
386 shaymm
November 18th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
lol I knew this list would end up this way
387 jes
November 18th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
@Scratch (376): Canadian is another word for lesbian in the South (in some circles, and by no means prevalently) – you could also use the word “Northerner.” I’m not sure why.
Hoodies – yeah, that sounds kinda ghetto.
I was really hoping you’d get my “scratch that” no pun intended. Though, since we are talking about vaginas now, do you have thoughts on cat scratch fever?
By the way, I also used the word “gun.”
I cannot believe no one has started up the predestination/fate/destiny v. free will debate! I think we got close with the eraser/pencil v. pen debate.
@Randall (356): For you naysayers on the eraser: what if it was your destiny to make a mistake, use the eraser, and write something anew? Huh? Chew on that. OR if you’re a free-will-lover, what if your choices led to the mistake but you were fortunate enough to be allowed to erase it? What’s the harm in making a mistake? Maybe – god is NOT dead.
Oh snap, I said god. I’m going to hell.
BOOM!
388 seneca
November 18th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
@Shannon (292):
Actually the rules in the ten commandments are in every culture and religion.
They are simply the best way to live for the propagation of the species and are embedded in all of us by evolution.
By the way, that’s where ALL religion (meaning the right way to live) comes from. Religion is wired into us by evolution. The rules of religion are efficient at making babies AND bringing them to adulthood.
The right way to live is separate from the God-part. The God-part is a local construct and depends on where you are born.
Mike
389 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
@Davy (372): This is what I have been told. But, I’m learning that it might not be my fault that I’m gay. This is causing me to question why God would punish me for something out of my control.
390 Yun
November 18th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
@Tarachowski (7): You’re right about the holocaust, but there are plenty of polarizing issues concerning race other than segregation: affirmative action, double standards, the n-word (no matter who’s using it), anti-white racism being ignored… plenty of stuff to get inflamed about.
@Gabriel (54):
That’s because the Catholic has never denied the theory of evolution. The closest they ever came to condemnation was a warning that it could be misused by proselytizing atheists. Creationism is supported only by a small minority of evangelical protestants; Catholics, mainstream protestants, and (I think) Mormons all accept evolution as incomplete (because it doesn’t explain either the origins of life or the origin of the soul) at worst.
That said: Evolution is not a “fact.” It is a “theory.” And before I get the standard retort, yes, I know the difference between a theory and a guess. I am well aware of the differences between scientific and common nuses of the word “theory.” However, even under the proper, scientific definition of the term “theory” and “fact” are not interchangeable.
@Shannon (337):
I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with anything on this board more than your final paragraph. Any discipline, either spiritual or scientific, which claims to have a monopoly on the truth and which treats disagreement or distrust as a sign of mental fault should be viewed with suspicion.
391 Yun
November 18th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
“That’s because the Catholic has never…”
That should say “…the Catholic church…”
392 thundercatx
November 18th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
This is bound to cause many wars, ahah.
But, all in all, I found this list to be very good, & very true.
393 segues
November 18th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
@Disciple (381): It must be nice to be so sure of yourself all the time…of course, the fact that you’re wrong might make that sureness cut a little deep.
Have you heard of humility?
Are you familiar with the concept of loving your neighbor as yourself?
Do the words “Judge not, lest you be judged” ring a bell?
I think you need a refresher course in morality and ethics, not to mention to whatever brand of Christianity you subscribe.
From where I’m sitting, you fail miserably as a human being.
394 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
@Disciple (381): Oh damn, and I was beginning to think that I was off the hook. Are you sure that being gay is a sin? I wonder if Jesus was gay. I mean every picture I saw of him he was always hanging out with dudes.
395 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Wow…I’m not gonna lie. Both sides of this religious debate are full of shit.
To the religious ones: Seriously…some of you are so fucking pompous I don’t know how you can bear to carry on with life (Disciple). Honestly, I’m of the opinion you can believe what you want, it has no effect on my life whatsoever. So why are you so busy trying to convince people, OVER THE INTERNET, that they should believe what you believe. You don’t know any of these people, you might as well be one of the door to door travelers who tries to, essentially, sell their religion to people. It’s even worse when you start insulting the people you’re trying to convince. Just give it up, nothing’s going to fucking change.
To the non-believers: You aren’t any less full of shit. There is absolutely no proof, NONE AT ALL, God doesn’t exist. Evolution doesn’t prove anything wrong but the story of creationism. In my opinion that should be taken in a metaphorical sense anyways, because to take it literally means you have some screws lose. However, you can provide zero evidence as to the nonexistence of a deity. All you ever do is shout “EVOLUTION” and question that if there’s a God, why he doesn’t just solve all the world’s problems. Neither arguments disprove the existence of any deity, so stop being equally as pompous as the religious people and just shut the hell up.
To Both: What ANY of you fail to see is that constantly having this argument, ON A WEBSITE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, is not going to change a damn thing. Both of you are going to walk away still believing the same fucking thing you did in the beginning. Just give it a fucking rest for once, live and let live, and just accept that you’re not changing ANYBODY’S mind.
396 sherilynxrose
November 18th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
This list is a surefire way to actually GET people talking about these 10 topics. Oh, the irony. (:
10. The Middle East: I think that both sides are just greedy and intolerant. It’s better to be happy than to be rich. I do, however, believe that racial intolerance is a big part of the whole conflict, not just imperialism. If only they would stop fighting over the land and just understand that they have different viewpoints and ways of life, everything would be okay. But, then again, I’m an idealist.
9. Homosexuality: If God created homosexuals, there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality. It’s human nature to at least have thoughts about activity with another member of the same sex. Those who are homosexual aren’t “corrupt” or “immoral” and don’t deserve to “rot in hell.” Quite the contrary, most of them are actually the nicest among people.
8. Now, I believe in Jesus Christ, and I’ve had miraculous, one-on-one experiences with our Lord. That’s not to say that I won’t accept someone who’s Muslim, or Jewish, or even Atheist. If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, that’s the way you were brought up and that’s the way you choose to live your life. I’m not going to interfere with that. But it’s when people start blurting out obscenities and false, ignorant claims against Him that I get angry. I’m not asking you to spend every minute of every day praying, but at least respect the religions of others. Once again, tolerance, people.
7. Race Relations: Wonderful point – if great people like Franklin Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln were black, all the racist, ignorant jerks would shun them, despite their accomplishments. Fox News tends to spread racist ideas about society and our President, especially. It’s the pigment in your body, not the Devil in your soul.
6. Abortion: If a woman is raped or forced into incest, by all means, she should be allowed to abort the child. The child’s life would be awful because it would be the sole result of a nonconsensual relationship and, possibly, an unsuitable/underage mother. If a teenager wants to go have sex with some guy from a party, and she gets pregnant, then the baby is solely her responsibility. If she’s responsible to have sex, she should be responsible enough to keep in mind the consquences and take care of a child, correct? However, if you don’t abort your rapist’s baby, there’s always welfare to take into consideration, so this issue struggles me. For the majority of circumstances, however, I am pro-life.
5. Gun Control: Another puzzling issue. The right to bear arms is in the Constitution, but the right to shoot someone who’s making you angry isn’t. If you’re responsible enough for a gun, then by all means. Have one for protection. But some sort of boundary or law should be added that restricts certain individuals from gun use.
4. The Holocaust: Those who deny it are extremely stupid and conspiratorial. What kind of monster would make up those statistics and those events? There’s pictures, there’s Hitler, there’s proof all over. The matter is how we can unite against this sort of intolerance-turned-genocide and stop anything like it from happening again.
3. I’m a Democrat, but I have some Republican viewpoints (i.e. abortion.) I’m not going to go out and slam anyone who doesn’t share my viewpoint; I am tolerant of everyone’s opinion. But if someone states something so unbearably ignorant that I can’t listen to it, I will probably correct them. If only compromise were available. But people aren’t willing to go that far.
2. Evolution or Creation: I personally believe in Creation. But those who believe in Evolution have their reasons and those who believe in Creation do, too. I think that we can use bipartisanship and find a common bond to agree on, no matter your religion or upbringings.
1. Religion: I could go on for hours, but tolerance and understanding pretty much sum it up. It’s not about who you worship, it’s about what you do. To all the die-hard Atheists, we Christians aren’t ignorant and stupid for believing in a God. Alternatively, to all you Christians, if someone’s Muslim or Jewish or if they were brought up in a way other than Christianity, they’re not going to rot in hell if they were a good person. There’s not a very fine line between religion and society, if you really stop to think about it.
The key words in most of these 10 topics are:
-Respect
-Tolerance
-Understanding
-Acceptance
Which, sadly, are words that the majority of society seem to be forgetting about.
397 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
@Maggot (375): Sexual orientation is a choice. All choices made outwardly start with the thought, idea, or desire to do something. These, of course, are prone to submitting to a strong enough influence. Take bisexuals for example. They find their own gender sexual attractive and the opposite as well. They have “tendencies
398 thundercatx
November 18th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Whatever happened to agree to disagree?
399 bassbait
November 18th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Ok, I’m going to attempt to break all ten of them in one sentence:
“So how about that african-american president who traveled to the middle east to convert muslims to christianity and then passed abortion, gun control, and gay marriage laws while explaining how the holocaust was the origin of man?”
I guess it doesn’t really work, but at least I tried!
400 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
@Disciple (394):
You, my good sir, are an idiot. Not all gay people choose to be gay. They know they’re in for a whole world of verbal abuse and potential awkwardness around friends of the same sex if they are, so why WOULD they choose such a think. It isn’t a CHOICE that you are attracted to women, is it? No, it just happens, something about a woman leads you to attraction. It’s the same thing for homosexuals. The choice for them isn’t whether or not to be homosexual, the choice for them is whether or not to act on these attractions. You have obviously NEVER been friends with someone who’s a homosexual and seen how difficult it is for them sometimes. Take your pompous shit and shove it.
401 alex
November 18th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
@Rand0m (11) did you seriously just say gravity isn’t a fact? I’m pretty sure that it is.
402 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
@segues (390): I am as sure as what the Word of God says, and I stand by it with all that I am. I have displayed no pride or self-rightousness in my posts. I have not once judged and in fact admitted on more than one post that we ALL have fallen short, that includes me and the rest of the human race. Thank God I have Christ in my life, who saved me from my sin. You are actually judging me, incorrectly, and attacking me personally. Have you looked inward?
403 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
@astraya (378):
“Really? I am obviously too trusting of the goodness of human nature.”
Well there’s your problem, right there. I’ve warned you about that.
404 Nickos13
November 18th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Shit list.
405 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
@jes (384):
“For you naysayers on the eraser: what if it was your destiny to make a mistake, use the eraser, and write something anew? Huh? Chew on that.”
Really, don’t chew on your eraser. It isn’t at all attractive. Unless you start doing… things… with your tongue. Then it’s awesome.
“OR if you’re a free-will-lover, what if your choices led to the mistake but you were fortunate enough to be allowed to erase it? What’s the harm in making a mistake?”
I live by mistakes. But there’s no erase button on the life remote. Do you know how I can have one installed?
“Maybe – god is NOT dead.”
No, he is. I’ve seen the grave. He’s buried in Cypress Hills. Some nutcase leaves a pair of panties and a bottle of Pernod there every Christmas.
“Oh snap, I said god. I’m going to hell.”
pssssst. We’re already there. Shhhh. Don’t tell. All these clowns think it’s just their ordinary lives.
406 GiantFlyingRobo
November 18th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Okay, guys I was going to tell my actual feelings on each of the listed subjects like others have done, but I decided to take a humorous approach to this, seeing as not many other people have. Plus, I wanted to see if anyone would think it to be funny, because I’ve found some of my past “joke” comments to be painstakingly UNFUNNY after I’ve typed them. So, could you please tell me if you think it’s funny or not? I need criticism to learn how to be funny. So here I go:
______________________________________________
10. I couldn’t care less if those Middle Easterns slaughter each other, but as soon as they screw with America, Woo-wee! We gonna go beserk on their @sses!
9. Why does everyone hate homosexuals? It’s not like they’re gay or something…
8. Pssh! Of course Jesus existed! The problem though, is that everyone thinks that he was the Messiah. Of course, Chuck Norris is thy savior! My daddy said so!
7. Isn’t everyone white? People,… that’re not white? Impossible!
6. Screw ‘em little, potential serial killers, I say everyone should have an abortion! Yes, to prevent us from another Stalin!
5. Guns don’t kill people, people don’t kill people, bullets don’t kill people, CHUCK NORRIS KILLS PEOPLE!! Sheesh, get yur facts right.
4. Damn Hitler, the commie bastard!
3. Screw Democrats, screw Republicans! Whig FTW! \m/
2. Evolution is just Chuck Norris roundhouse-kicking people into shape over time.
1. Everyone knows that God created Chuck Norris when he got bored, what with being the only thing in the non-existant universe and wanting a friend. Chuck got bored real fast, for there was nothing to talk to God about(besides his gigantic muscles) and nothing to roundhouse kick. God decided to create the Universe, and made it full of things for Chuck to roundhouse kick. Eventually, he settled down on Earth, after destroying all life on every other planet in the solar system. But then, Chuck started to want to kill things again(such as humans). God desparately tried to stop him, but couldn’t. Finally, he made Chuck Norris a normal man, so then the humans could stand a chance against him. Chuck got old as a mortal, and begged good for forgiveness, so he wouldn’t die. God made him immortal again, but on the term he must fight for good. The end.
407 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
@Disciple (399):
The Bible says that sexual orientation is a choice?! Where does it say that?! What else does it say? What am I missing?
Dammit, what edition do you have? Mine’s filled with all these “thees” and “thous.” Annoying. Yours sounds a lot more fun, like a Penthouse letter.
408 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
@Disciple (397): Sexual orientation is a choice.
Nothing you said following this statement supports this statement. Wouldn’t it just have been easier for you to have said in response to my post (342) “yes, you’re right”
409 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
@renegade01 (397): “isn’t a CHOICE that you are attracted to women, is it? No, it just happens, something about a woman leads you to attraction”
You helped prove the point. Illicit attraction is incited by some kind of sexual stimuli. For heterosexuals, it is natural for propagation to want to mate with a member of the opposite sex, we need to procreate. The CHOICE is which mate we choose and the initial factor is sexual attraction or lust. Homosexuals choose to lust after members of the same sex because they find something visually appealing and that is escalated into lust, desire, action, etc. As I said before, bisexuals have CHOSEN to lust after both genders, whichever fulfills the sexual desire of the time. Not to say of course that its all as shallow as looks. Many feelings are confused for homosexual if you mistaken close friendships with someone as the same sex, with feelings of intimacy. There are many pyschological factors involved and have been proven to be a dominant origin.
410 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
@get a clue (373): Well, ok, see, you actually have yet to dispute what I said. All you said was “Whoops, wrong!” and proceeded to bash me. Now, please dispute what I have presented. I’ll take you more seriously that way. Plus, if you shut me down, properly, I’ll have eaten my words, will not be able to save face, and you will have made me a laughing stock. So, sir, take all five of St. Thomas Aquinas’ quotes, and explain to me calmly and without insults why they are wrong.
Also, you say that these do not qualify as evidence, whereas they do. Do they point to a specific religion? No, they do not. But for all five of these arguments, and you will hate me for saying this, God or any God-like figure is the most logical explanation. And yes, this reasoning qualifies as evidence. Oh, I’ll feed you, baby bird.
We have no tangible evidence to support that smoking and chewing tobacco products cause cancer. A scientific experiment would have to be conducted that would play out as follows: A group of say, 500 individuals would be chosen from birth. They would all grow up in environments free from anything that may cause cancer. 250 of them, at an early point in their lives, would have to take up smoking, while the other 250 would not be allowed. After 50 years of this lifestyle, each half would be examined. Those with cancer would be subjected to tests to ensure that their cancer was not caused by other agents. After that, test results will be clear enough to determine if smoking was the cause. But, an experiment such as this has yet to be conducted. Scientifically speaking, it has yet to be proven that smoking causes cancer.
However, statistically, it has been proven that a higher rate of smokers get cancer than non-smokers. The correlation has been proven, but once again, it cannot be definitively proven that the cigarettes and nothing else caused this cancer. But, we can view the statistics and realize, using logic and reason, that the tobacco products were the culprit. This logic has been employed as evidence, and tobacco products currently carry a Surgeon General warning.
Logic and reasoning is evidence. Evolution cannot be proven. We have yet to conduct and experiment by keeping a group of animals in a secure environment. We have yet to see them evolve based on the variables we have presented. Tangibly, evolution cannot be proven. However, logically, we can see the results today. We can observe skeletons, fossils, and living organisms to determine that evolution has indeed been occurring. Again, logic and reason as evidence.
So, present your case. No, you haven’t done so yet, all you have done is insult me, despite the fact that I am clearly intelligent. And FYI, just because I copy and paste something doesn’t mean that what I copied and pasted isn’t true. So, lay out all five arguments, and shoot them down. That is all I want from you, otherwise I will assume you are incapable of defending your beliefs, and I will no longer give you the courtesy of a response.
Your move.
411 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
@Randall (405): No, he is. I’ve seen the grave. He’s buried in Cypress Hills. Some nutcase leaves a pair of panties and a bottle of Pernod there every Christmas.
I wonder why, after your annual Dec 26 graveside visits, both those items “mysteriously” disappear. The Pernod I can understand…
412 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
@Disciple (409): You may choose your mate, but you do not choose the gender of your mate. When I look at girls, I don’t make a conscious decision to be attracted to them. I chose my girlfriend, sure, but I didn’t choose if I would like girls in the first place. I just did. And the same goes vice versa for gays.
413 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
@renegade01 (395): That’s a very cynical view. My beliefs are not being pressed on anyone. The person I was speaking too was asking questions and I answered them with advice that was requested. You are heard, as I am, and all others on this board. In the end, everyone will believe what they want. That is their right. We all have free will.
414 Disciple
November 18th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
@Maggot (408): My post was somehow submitted before it was finished. I’m working at the same time and its hard to post quick enough lol. I’ll get back to you.
415 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
@ianz09 (412):
You like girls?
Huh.
Life throws you little surprises every day I guess.
416 archiealt
November 18th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
@ianz09 (410):
I’m sorry dude but you’ve missed the point. It’s not about the other guy disproving your, or rather, Aquinas’ arguments for gods existence. It’s about you realising that what Aquinas said, does not constitute an argument. It’s word play, nothing more nothing less.
417 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
@archiealt (416): I honestly don’t think it was word play. Aquinas utilized logic and reasoning as evidence the same as scientists utilize it to support evolution, which experimentally has yet to be proven. But a blind monkey can see the reasoning and know it to be true. St. Thomas did the same, for God, or a god.
Anyway, I appreciate not getting bashed, which is more than I can say for get a clue.
418 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
@Maggot (411):
Dude. I collect LOTS of weird shit. I’m starting a museum. Someday.
Wait, it’s almost 8pm. Every Wednesday at 8 I pull my box of beaks out from under the bed and count them.
419 Davy
November 18th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Continue thy debate my friends.
420 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
@Randall (415): Ouch, Randall, big ouch! Just ’cause I throw a few fellatio jokes around, just because I was branded a naked ghost streaker in the past (Yeah, that was a conversation on this site), I’m getting judged. Ouch Randall, kick to the metaphorical gonads. I metaphorically curled in a fetal ball, and metaphorically throwing up and crying.
421 macph
November 18th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
why can’t we just get along and talk about religion for a start? =D
422 Jay
November 18th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
If you believe in evolution, and also that homosexuality is genetic. By what mechanism would that gene be passed down. The nature of the gene would be such that it would not favor being passed on to future generations.
423 GiantFlyingRobo
November 18th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
No one thought it was funny, eh? Crap…
424 Graham
November 18th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
10. It’s Israel’s fault
9. Why is this even an issue. 100% equal rights
8. Most likely didn’t exist
7. This really is not a polarizing issue, maybe 2% of the population thinks whites should have exclusive legal rights
6. While abortion shouldn’t be used as birth control for wild unprotected sex, if a woman made an intelligent thought process and decided she wasn’t ready to have a child, for any reason, including economic, age-related, or even simply mental unreadiness, then she should have an absolute right to an abortion in the first trimester. Past the first trimester only for rape/incest/life-threatening/baby will have awful disorder or disease.
5. Guns should not be banned, but the control process needs to be far more rigorous. Mental testing should honestly be conducted for anyone applying for a gun license.
4. Doesn’t belong on list. 99.99% of the population on and offline knows it happened and it was awful for Jews but not just them. Anyone who says otherwise shouldn’t be humored by being argued with.
3. Take a look at my other 9 positions and take a wild stab at it
2. Evolution is real, get over it. People constantly say ‘oh maybe but you know it’s full of hooooles’ and yet they never actually give examples of these ‘holes.’ DUH there are some holes because of gaps in fossil record but because the sky doesn’t rain livestock doesn’t make it vegetarian.
1. Agnostic, lean towards not likely but can’t rule out at all. Don’t mind religion at all, I just hate when people use religion in matters of logic over emotion. (i.e. morality arguments are fine, but not politics or science) Also of course fundamentalists from any religion, including rude jackass atheists, are delusional.
425 STRWRZ
November 18th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
all these topics are here because no one can give a definitive answer to many of the answers that these topics ask. Is this what our civilization has come down to arguing about whether there was a guy who could walk on water. wake up ever1
426 _-DAN-_
November 18th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
What I don’t understand is that you seemed represented the holocaust denyers fairly. When those people are clearly racist idiots.
427 bucslim
November 18th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Ya got city hands, ya been countin money all your life!!
428 meatyurologist
November 18th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
@Jay (422):
Hmmm..good point. Although I don’t think that all genetic mutations are beneficial. Many of them are actually detrimental(such as the one in question). Mutations pop up randomly, and those that are advantageous tend to increase in frequency due to the desirable side affects.
This does lead to the question as to why homosexuality seems to be all the rage these days. Is it just that more people are comfortable with coming out, or is it just nature’s way of population control for the human race?
429 NYCVAL
November 18th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Like it or not, two variables cannot be viewed as equals; fact and opinion.
430 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Okay, I’ll toss this one out. Evolution doesn’t concern me much. What I really want to know is how this ride got started. I mean, Evolution had to start somewhere. So I know about the Miller-Huey Experiment where they approximated the “primordial soup” with the water and methane and various naturally occurring amino acids and such and started zapping it with lightening. Okay. BUT.
Where did the water, methane, and amino acids come from?
I mean, take it back ad infinitum to the hypothesized Big Bang. Where did the stuff that went “BANG” in the Big Bang come from? I mean, it had to come from somewhere, didn’t it?
Don’t yell at me. I really don’t know. I wasn’t there. If I had been, they’d have blamed the whole thing on me. But really, how did this merry-go-round get cranking?
Of course, we are not at a loss for theories:
http://www.blog.joelx.com/funny-large-hadron-collider-cartoon/1721/
431 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
@Shannon (430): Know one knows the answer to that question and if they say they do they are full of shit.
432 Missyhelen
November 18th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
10- just stay out of it
9- nothing wrong with it
8- Believe what you want, no one else’s bussiness
7- Everyone is equal and blah blah blah. Race is pointless
6- To each their own
5- indifferent
4- it happened, it was pointless torture again “everyone is equal”
3- All sides has it’s merits and it’s and it’s flaws
2- Been proven, get over it. Same as we proved lightning doesn’t come from Zeus, but imagine telling an Ancient greek that.
1- Rinse and repeat #8, believe what you want
433 natapillar
November 18th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
#6 – ‘when does birth begin?’ … should that not instead say ‘when does life begin?’
we all know when birth begins! :p
434 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Shannon, I’ll go one step further and tell you that no one will ever know the answer to that question.
435 The Righteous one
November 18th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
I know that it dosen’t help to answer your question, but be happy with the thought that you know just as much about it as the greatest scientific minds in history.
436 GiantFlyingRobo
November 18th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (406): Seriously, did anybody find this funny? Someone had to…
437 get a clue
November 18th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
@ianz09
“I honestly don’t think it was word play.”
See, I really can’t educate you in a few comments. It doesn’t really matter what you “honestly think,” or how much you cut and paste, or what you begin by stating, “In fact…” I know you won’t get this, so this is for the entertainment of the rest of us who do. “Feeling strongly,” hoping, wishing, wanting and even “knowing it to be true deep down in your soul” does not hold a candle to reality…to physics, math, the other sciences. Your cut and pasted “5 proofs” were simply word play. I demonstrated their silliness with the “Stevie Wonder is God” syllogism. You either choose to ignore that or you’re not smart enough to get it yet. Go on and pout if you must, but all the pouting in the world still won’t make magic true or you right.
And if what someone anonymously types on a message board hurts your feelings that badly, you also need to get a thicker skin. Seriously.
438 meatyurologist
November 18th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
@Graham (424):
I agree with you on most issues, I’m not so sure about number 6. You are basically saying that it is ok for women to have abortions if they plan ahead and then realize it is a mistake, but not ok if they make a mistake and then plan ahead. If it is just a matter of a woman removing a clump of cells from her body shouldn’t it be ok in ALL cases?
I think that this is why imo abortion is the most polarizing issue. I just don’t see how there can be any gray area here. I’m not a religious person by any means, but when science can’t even tell us when a human life begins, then how can we throw out an arbitrary time frame like 20 weeks, or third trimester, and say it is ok then? Since there is no magic number where life “pops up” then I don’t understand how we can’t say that it happens at conception. Either you are ending a life or you are not. It is that simple. The worst argument that I always hear for abortion is the “it is best for the baby, because she wouldn’t have the best life”. Are you kidding me? Go up to any one of the millions of people who have had a rough childhood and hold a gun to their head. See if they think their life has any value. Ask them if they are glad their mother made the right choice. I can understand for cases of rape(should be first few days), health concerns for the mother, or extreme, unsurvivable genetic defects for the baby, but any other case is just killing in the name of convenience.
439 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
@Shannon (430):
It’s the Miller-UREY experiment, not the Miller-HUEY experiment. The latter was a poorly publicized study in the 80s dealing with the question of how much ultra-cheap beer must be consumed before one will get up on a karaoke stage to perform “I Want a New Drug.”
440 Randall
November 18th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
@bucslim (427):
Sometimes that shark looks right into ya. Right into your eyes. And the thing about a shark is he’s got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll’s eyes.
441 GiantFlyingRobo
November 18th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
@get a clue (437): All the pouting in the world won’t make you seem smarter or change the fact that you’re a dick.
442 Maggot
November 18th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
@Randall (439): Gold, I tell ya. Gold!
443 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
@get a clue (437): Well, again with the bashing. Again, nothing accomplished. Tell you what, instead of dodging the questions, answer them. You would make a great politician. And actually, my feelings are far from hurt. It is actually a wee bit amusing that you are incapable of defending your views against an attack, or if you are, for some reason choose not to. I have defended mine fluently, and if you want to dismiss them as crap, make me look bad by disputing them. You have yet to do so. And no, I actually have yet to post a “Well, it has to be true!” rant. Gee, if I just close my eyes really tight and wish hard enough… Again, you have failed at defending your beliefs against my attack, despite the fact that you are very sure of yourself.
As for the Stevie Wonder thing, sure, I smiled, it was clever and cute. It doesn’t employ the same logic, however. Your logic just made random connections out of useless bits of knowledge. The logic of St. Thomas stated that the arguments were based in things that science doesn’t even have a best guess for, and out of all the leftover possibilities, somehow God or any other powerful deity is left as the most logical choice, despite how illogical so many people claim the existence of a higher being to be. Dodge as much as you like, when you boil it down, you have not answered a single question of mine, nor have you disputed any of my claims. You are grasping at straws, and it is glaringly obvious. There are plenty of smart atheists, you aren’t one of them. Or, at the very least, you have yet to show it.
444 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
@Randall (440)
You know by the end of that first dawn, lost a hundred men. I don’t know how many sharks, maybe a thousand. I know how many men, they averaged six an hour.
445 wondersquid
November 18th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I love the smell of napalm in the morning! I’m tossing the subject of health care into the mix. I don’t know about other countries, but in America that is guaranteed to start some frothing at the mouth and full-throated screaming.
446 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (436): It was humorous, Robo.
447 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
@wondersquid (445): Idk why though. People really hate that idea. They don’t want their taxes raised, because they need it for insurance, but if they paid the high taxes they wouldn’t need insurance anymore… *sniff*sniff* Whoops get the umbrellas, smells like a shitstorm approaching!
448 GiantFlyingRobo
November 18th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
@ianz09 (446): Er, thanks pal. I’m funnier in real life, I guess it’s just my charisma that makes me funny. Wait, would it have been funnier if I used more cusses?
449 Carole
November 18th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Join the Green Party !!
450 MrSelfdestruct
November 18th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Nothing turns a bad day around like trolling a website dedicated to anyone of these. I agree, thou shalt not discuseth these topics for the love of all that is holy, but, it is just so easy to tweak people online now-a-days.
Back in the day, if I wanted to troll, I had to cultivate a conversation and establish a back-story. Now, all I have to do is make an edit on conservapedia and watch the hilarity ensue.
451 ants1
November 18th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
LMFAO Awesome list! Sticking it to everyone who has ever been in one of those absolutely pointles arguements.
452 Joe DF
November 18th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
There are too many gay men living in Israel due to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and the rise of minorities such as Africans in the region who make young Israelis question their sexuality. These Israelis with a high gay prevalence were imposed on the Middle East due to the Holocaust. These Israelis are incorrect in thinking they were the first to settle Israel, for Neanderthals, and Homo Sapiens from Africa came there first. We should encourage abortions and give guns to Israelis so that they could lower their numbers their. Also, we need to ban the teachings of Jesus Christ and rather preach Buddhism, since Jesus was gay. Vote Palin 2012 and she’ll enact these necessary measures.
453 ants1
November 18th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Ya know the thing with all of these topics is that you will always find the same people on the same sides, the pro abortions will always be pro evolution and probably anti religion.
Does that mean there really are only two kinds of people in the world, those on either sides of these topics.
454 get a clue
November 18th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
@ians09
“That is all I want from you, otherwise I will assume you are incapable of defending your beliefs, and I will no longer give you the courtesy of a response.”
note: sedveral responses ago
PWNED
Let me know when you’re smart enough to grasp my first post, then we can talk. Meanwhile, you keep cutting and pasting instead of thinking. And giggling when your lone defender calls me a dick. I’m going to watch The Daily Show. Try and stick to your threats next time. Thanks for playing!
455 Alencon
November 18th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
What the hell are you talking about? You should have named the list the Ten Best Things to Talk about on the Internet.
If we talk enough maybe we can find common ground on the really hard ones and maybe we can erase some of ignorance out there (let’s face it we’re ALL ignorant about something).
I used to spend a lot of time on Christian Forums (before they closed General Apologetics down) and I could never figure out what makes some of those people tick. I encountered people there that were SO far out beyond the lunatic fringe it was scary. These people SHOULD NOT have guns, but they do.
I really would like to understand what does make them tick though. How can we understand each other if we don’t talk about things even if the conversation gets heated on occasion? The good thing about the internet is you don’t have to duck flying fists (or hammers, or chairs).
Speaking of guns, I don’t want to regulate guns.I want to regulate BULLETS and make it a felony to possess them outside of hunting preserves and target ranges.
456 Kenny
November 18th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
One of your best lists ever. But I must point out (and this could almost be an honorable mention on the list as many times as I have debated this and read debates on this online)that Atheism is NOT a religion. I’ve heard all the arguments about the non-belief being just as dogmatic as belief, but it doesn’t hold up. Just as darkness cannot be created (as it is the absence of light), Atheism is just the (I would argue accepted) absence of God.
457 wondersquid
November 18th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
ianz09,@ianz09 (447): I didn’t know if anyone would take the bait! I feel a nibble! The concern, see, is that the high taxes would be a lot more money than the insurance. Oh, and little things like having to wait until long after you’re dead to get the medical procedure you needed.
458 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
@get a clue (454):
Okay, Dude. I support ianz as well because he’s always been nice to me even when I was having a really bad day, so he has more than one supporter. Now if you’ll bear with me, I’m going to call you a name and then I’m going to make your position laughable.
First, the name. Were you BORN a douchebag asshat or did you go to graduate school for it? Either way, you are a fine shining example of douchebaggary. Your mom must be so proud.
Second, you are bitching about getting a response. Dude, are you really trying to say you are smarter AND a better logician than St. Thomas Aquinas? I’ll give you this, you don’t lack confidence. Of course, neither did Adam Sandler in The Waterboy and people still make fun of him.
Your little Stevie Wonder thingy? There’s a name for clever bullshit like that. It’s called a “false syllogism” and if you’d tried that shit with Socrates teaching you, he’d have jerked your toga over you head, beaten you senseless with Hippocrates’ caduceus, and poured a pint of hemlock down your pie hole.
So, thank YOU for playing, you grabastic piece of amphibian shit. Now, run along and watch your Daily Show or I shall be forced to taunt you again.
459 Shannon
November 18th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
@Alencon (455):
Well, I’m a Christian and I’ll try to tell you what makes ME tick. I don’t pretend to speak for all creeds and such, but in my case, it’s hope. Pure and simple hope. Not faith . . . I don’t have a thimble’s worth of faith.
See, I must admit that I am scared shitless at the thought of this world being “it”. I have nightmares (on the few occasions I get enough sleep to dream) about being in a glass casket and having dirt thrown in my face as I’m buried, even though in my dream I know I’m dead. Add to that the fact that I am a big time mama’s boy and I come from a very small and very loving family and I hate to think that I’ll never ever see the ones I’ve buried again. I just want to hold out hope that something does lie beyond the grave.
I read and studied C.S. Lewis’ famous Trilemma when I was younger. If you aren’t familiar, it’s the idea that one has three choices when confronting the person of Jesus Christ. 1) He is a liar. He lied about his origins, abilities, and powers and KNEW he was lying at the time. If that be the case, the Apostles who followed Him knew he was lying as well and they died horrific deaths for nothing. 2) He is a lunatic. He was lying, but he was sincerely lying because he was crazy and really believed he was the Son of God, etc. If that’s the case, He was one well-put-together madman because he kept up a consistent front and act for at least three solid years of public teaching. I’m nutty as a fruitcake as well. I’ve got BPD and some other alphabet soups and if I’m off my meds for a few days, I can’t hold two thoughts in my head, much less convince anyone I’m “the way, the truth, and the life.” or 3) He really is Lord, as he claims to be.
Now I’m not going to sit here typing that I’ve got all the answers and I’ll be glad to give them to you if you’ll send your prayers and your money to PO Box 555, Winnepeg, Manitoba or some crap like that. I don’t have answers for shit. I used to, but some heavy shit went down in my life a few years back and I had to drop back ten and punt everything I believed in and go back to square one.
So, that’s what makes me tick. Hope. A sincere desire that Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be. I may turn out to be completely wrong and go into that pine box and turn in to so much worm shit, but I’ll still go hoping. It may turn out that I backed the right horse for once after all and get to see my two Papas and all my beloved friends again. I don’t know. I do know that I don’t want to shove what I believe down anyone’s throat because that is impolite and useless and once upon a lifetime ago, I was really good at doing that, but then that heavy shit dropped and . . . well, let’s just say Christian Fundamentalism is a really cold place to be when all your answers turn in to questions.
All I have to offer is my story. I hope that helps answer your question in some way.
460 ava
November 18th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
10. I don’t like the way they treat women…but I feel sorry for the majority of people just trying to live their lifes whilst mad dictators and idiots on both sides make their lives hell…
9. I have gay friends, but I don’t think its natural and they have a bad attitude towards women…just promiscous to the nth degree…
8. Yahushua is my lord and saviour…
7. I really do just wish we could all get along…
6. I do think this is murder, but I do believe a woman has a right to decide as its her body.
5. too many bullets, too many idiots…
4. I think the jews really play on this…war is disgusting and many countries and people have been at war…no one else uses it to their advantage like the jews do…
3. politics…the few control the many…there is no democracy…we are sheeple…
2. I think god created and gave us choice to confuse us…why would the answers be given to us…
1. religion does cause a lot of trouble, mainly because 99% of it is man-made rubbish…we are missing what the real message is…unconditional love…if we could love like that…people couldn’t help but reciprocate…human love is always conditional…
love light and peace to all…
461 Alencon
November 18th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
@Shannon(459) – Not really. You strike me as a rather rational individual who would like things to be better than you’re afraid they actually are.
You and everyone else brother, even those that claim to be content with a materialistic world view.
I too would be very happy if Jesus were what he is claimed to be. But intellectually I know that’s highly unlikely.
You strike me as normal. I’d like to know what makes people like the guy that told me witches were very real and very dangerous tick. He decided that since witches were mentioned in the bible, they must exist.
Oh yeah, and he owns guns. LOTS of guns.
462 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
@Disciple (413):
Not being pushed on anyone? what to you call the bullshit response to me telling you that you are full of it about homosexuals. Yeah, sure, choosing to act on their homosexuality is a sin, I got that. 4 years of private education does that to a guy. However, the FACT, yes I said FACT, is that you CANNOT HELP WHO YOU FALL FOR. Whether it be man, woman, tranny, shit, even your own damn grandmother. The fact that you have an attraction to them is NOT a choice. There is nothing “wrong”, as you said in an earlier comment, with homosexual desires. It’s the same thing as condemning a beggar for being hungry. They can’t help it, and you condemning them for how they naturally are is fucked up. Who are you to judge your God’s perfect creations and tell them they’re going to hell for something they can’t help.
As for me pointing out the complete fruitlessness of this argument between Intelligent Design/Creationism and Evolution being “cynical” just look at the argument that continued above. Did anyone’s opinion change because of it? Did either side of that argument say, “Oh you’re right, I think God is real/fake.”. Simply answered: No. Neither party did. It didn’t change a damn thing and just created hostility. Let people believe whatever they damn well fucking please and just leave them the hell alone. You’re as bad as every other person who pretends they have all the answers to the mysteries of life.
463 lo
November 18th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
i’m shocked that the original list missed this HUGE one: any form of colonialism/immigration that’s taken place by anyone to anyone anywhere on the surface of earth in all of known human history, ever.
just bring this up and whether it’s in the americas, in africa, in europe by europe -or anyone else, by the romans, in australia and new zealand, in the pacific islands, in india, in japan and china and korea, screw it -anywhere ever, i know y’all get it- bring it up and watch the controversy and hateful flaming begin before your eyes!
also, i am surprised by anyone who took this title literally, without mentally reading “should never discuss online [without expecting comment controversy]“, but again, sarcasm is hard to do online.
but mostly, i’m deeply disappointed, that yet again people are disputing the very definitions of both “facts” and “[scientific] evidence and/or theory”.
we knew this list was coming (jaimie told us so), but i wasn’t really sure what to expect in the comments. thankfully, we’ve been fairly civil and even a bit funny all in all, yea!
464 lo
November 18th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
@ava (460):
“9. I have gay friends, but I don’t think its natural and they have a bad attitude towards women…just promiscous to the nth degree…”
-even your lesbian friends have a “bad attitude towards women”? that’s deeply weird….. hmmmm
465 Jack b
November 18th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
The righteous one, yes you are going to hell, and yes, it’s because you’re gay.
You are going to hell along with the atheists out here (they know who they are) who keeps on defending satan’s tools (like evolution).
They will try to make witty remarks to dispute the truth. They will try to use complex words to make them sound more intelligent because satan wants people to believe in people who seem intelligent but are just actually destroying souls.
466 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
@get a clue (454): Well, I guess you win, simply due to fact that I have no idea what you are thinking, and therefore cannot for the life of me argue. As far as responding when I said I wouldn’t, I decided to give you another chance to actually address the issue, rather than downplay me, or try to. I will place that under the file labeled “My Bad”, for actually thinking you could contribute. I will also point out that what I copied and pasted was simply the five arguments and what I had in quotes. Everything else was all me. And I’m confused as to why quoting something to support my stance actually takes away from my point. But, I’ll place that under the file labeled “Let it Go, He’ll Never Get It”. Jon Stewart is hilarious, he and Colbert are my favorite news source. I’ll commend you on that. I don’t think I ever threatened you, but perhaps I did, or else it is lost in your pile of straws. I think you proved the point about how those who can’t argue the points simply dodge and create strawmen. I’m pretty sure I was thinking the whole time, but you say I wasn’t, and clearly you won. Having not answered anything I asked, I was under the impression I had stumped you, but in the end, I’d been had. Please elaborate on how.
You know, you won’t even read this far, or if you do, you won’t care, but if I don’t type it, it’ll nag me. I could care less what you, or anyone, believes. But you believe it so strongly to the point that you are arrogant. You think the point of my argument was to prove God exists. Considering I’m a Christian, your assumption was only natural. However, my point was, at its core, to challenge you and see if your beliefs were so strong for a reason, or simply arrogant, ignorant bliss. You will deny it, but you are on the same level with the little Fundies who believe the Earth was created in six periods of 24 hours. Why do these people believe this? Because papa and preacher said so. Otherwise they have no reason, but may God damn the souls of those who think otherwise. You have proven that you have no good reason to believe what you do. Plenty of atheists would have cited extremely hard to dispute arguments, would have addressed the issues, and presented a reasonable case as to why they do not believe in any deity or higher being. You, however, insulted my intelligence, and typed several responses that in fact told me nothing. And before you launch on any tangent of “The big bad arrogant Christian is picking on me”, I would gladly rip into any creationist who failed to provide a solid argument for his case. Does this mean I’m looking for indisputable evidence? Hardly. But something with a little bit of evidence, and a solid foundation, at the very least, would garner some respect from me, and probably most of the regulars around here. I have immense respect for a lot of atheists, but you are not one of them.
You will read this with a smug grin, respond with a victorious comment chock full of insults, taunts, and the like. I will move on, knowing that deep down, you are no better than blindly religious folk you take so much pleasure in shutting down.
Thank YOU for playing, and have a dandy day!
467 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
@Jack b (465):
You are aware that God frowns upon blind faith, aren’t you?
468 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
@wondersquid (457): Problems for sure, but I would hope the benefits would outweigh the risks. I won’t go into a debate, I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know nearly enough to back myself up. But I’m eager for facts on the subject, and as it happens, currently support socialized medicine. My family has trouble affording insurance, and I personally would gladly cough up half my paycheck so others can get their healthcare, because I know they are doing the same. If it means a better end result, and so far I think it will.
469 stefan
November 18th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
The internet is now boring, thanks ):
470 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
@Jack b (465): Why do you think this? Why are gays going to hell? You are too. You commit sins as much as any man. If homosexuality is a sin, and God views all sins as equivalent, then you are as likely to go to hell as any gay.
“But I have accepted the Lord Jesus into my heart.”
As have many homosexuals. Just because zealots claim God disowns them, doesn’t mean there aren’t homosexual Christians out there.
“I do not commit the sin constantly.”
Your body is a temple. Let’s say you drink. You must be a good steward to what God has given, in this case your body. You can ask forgiveness as much as you want, but if you continue to drink, you are as bad as any practicing homosexual.
By the way, I do not think alcohol consumption is a sin, but it made for a good analogy.
Lastly, give me something, anything, to act as evidence to the contrary of evolution. And please, do NOT reference the Bible. We all know that the good book isn’t worth anything to anybody who doesn’t believe. I’m actually curious, being a firm believer in evolution, and God, as to what evidence there is, other than the Bible. Which, as it turns out, never actually contradicts the possibility of evolution.
471 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
@ianz09 (468):
Well part of the issue lies in that healthcare is a very private thing. I mean, you medical record is a very private thing because it, essentially, tells people all of your body’s physical weaknesses. People are very afraid of the government having a record of their entire medical history, which is what would be done under a healthcare plan provided by taxes that the government control. Aside from that it eliminates competition which is the basis of our economy. I mean, what insurance company is going to be able to compete with free coverage run by the government that’s funded by taxes. Eventually they’ll all go bankrupt, leaving only the government in charge of healthcare…and the entire country’s medical history. That’s where most of the fear of this sort of government run healthcare comes from.
472 ILIE
November 18th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
THE LIST IS PROVING ITS POINT SO MANY COMMENTS SO FAST
473 Vera Lynn
November 18th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Oh my. Man oh man. People are nuts.
474 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
I said very a lot in the comment…my apologies lol
475 ianz09
November 18th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
@renegade01 (471): Very true, and the fear is legit. But I personally think we need benefits like this, even at the risk of the government possibly screwing us over.
Oh, and I saw earlier you mentioned the Internet argument being useless, as neither side convinced one another. I assumed you were at least partially referring to the one I was taking part in, in which I just wanted to clarify: I was out to expose the blind atheists, not convert anyone. Next up, blind Christians! Who equally annoy me. No, I didn’t take your comment personal, but just wanted to make sure it was understood that I had a legit motive.
476 lo
November 18th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
@Vera Lynn (473):
“People are nuts.”
of course they are, but it took a good few hundred comments to get into actual flame battles, as opposed to most people commenting on the existence of flame wars and controversy itself. i’d say that’s a point for LV not being populated by idiots, generally speaking.
477 bucslim
November 18th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
@Randall (440):
Y’all know me. Know how I earn a livin’. I’ll catch this bird for you, but it ain’t gonna be easy. Bad fish. Not like going down the pond chasin’ bluegills and tommycods. This shark, swallow you whole. Little shakin’, little tenderizin’, an’ down you go.
478 Ana
November 18th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
So, basically, don’t talk about anything important on the internet?
Nope.
479 renegade01
November 18th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
@ianz09 (475):
Well I mean I completely understand why it would be worth the risk, however I know I personally have quite the medical history (Arthritis, 3 broken bones, the list goes on but continuing would kinda make what I’m about to say hypocritical lol) and I’d rather not have it in the hands of a governing body. I do agree our current form of healthcare it failing, I just don’t think that giving the reigns to such a large power is necessarily the best idea.
As for your reference to earlier, I got that as I read further into the debate. It’s just getting ridiculous seeing the, basically, same debate happen EVERY time a list says Jesus, or even religion (which automatically gets turned to Christianity rather often, interestingly enough). I think in the year that I’ve been here I haven’t seen a single religious debate end with anyone on the either side being convinced the other side is right. I have no problem with people who have a belief system, and even them sharing their beliefs. My issue is when either side of the argument begins acting like a total dickweed and begins saying everyone who doesn’t believe what they believe is stupid. Nobody can prove it one way or the other, so just deal. That’s what makes it a belief.
480 danielkahozi
November 18th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Jesus Christ is God, savior of the world and Lord of Lords
481 lo
November 18th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
@danielkahozi (480):
shoot, i meant to click your name to reply, and hit “abuse” instead. this isn’t sarcasm, but a real mouse error. sorry mods.
but that doesn’t negate what i wanted to say:
this comment says literally nothing about the discussion currently going on, either in the list or the comments. so you’re a believer. that’s very nice. what led you to think this comment was a stand-alone and meaningful statement on the discussions at hand?
try elaborating and explaining what you mean, in your own words, please.
thank-you.
482 80s
November 19th, 2009 at 12:13 am
Every man has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on his wall. I don’t see how that could possibly be misconstrued.
This list was clearly going explode with comments from everyone from every side of the argument, educated or no, even though it’s explicitly suggested that the material is something that you should never discuss online. Ironic.
483 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 12:20 am
@80s (482):
pretty sure the irony was more than half the point…..
484 violetxrain
November 19th, 2009 at 12:41 am
What’s with #4? I never knew that educated, sane people actually debated this.
485 hefa69
November 19th, 2009 at 12:58 am
great list and great comments!
486 Randall
November 19th, 2009 at 1:02 am
@bucslim (477):
So, eleven hundred men went in the water; 316 men come out and the sharks took the rest, June the 29th, 1945. Anyway, we delivered the bomb.
487 TJ
November 19th, 2009 at 1:03 am
Geez I thought my comments would sink in and avoid arguements.. Again I am wrong… As for the gun control thing.. We should all have guns cause when Mother Russia decides to invade I am going WOLVERINE on that ex commie ass!!!!
WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Kicks Putin in the chest*…ROADHOUSE!
488 get a clue
November 19th, 2009 at 1:07 am
@ianz09
Thanks for playing, kid.
You rail about atheists while proclaiming to be “in the middle” while professing to be a Christian. The rest of us get the joke. (By the way, I’m not an atheist.)
You get your panties in a bunch over perceived slights to your limited intelligence yet take every opportunity to wallow in smugness and insults. The rest of us say, “If it walks like a hypocrite and quacks like a hypocrite…..”
You take the faux high road and pronounce yourself above it all, never to respond to me again…and then proceed to do so, over and over and over. Integrity. Look it up.
You think that simply amassing quotations and “really, truly wholeheartedly believing” in something makes it true. It doesn’t. It never will.
You can’t grasp simple truths presented to you that others have no problem with, so why would I (or anyone) continue to waste time when you’re clearly not smart enough to participate?
Take your own advice. Here’s a quotation, cut and pasted from your own post:
“I won’t go into a debate, I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know nearly enough to back myself up.”
So STFU until you do. Although I find you entertaining, you’ll be doing yourself a favor.
I look forward to your even longer still absolutely, positively final response in which you once again rehash all of your wishful thinking, inability to comprehend and petty insults like the good little Christian you think you are.
489 TJ
November 19th, 2009 at 1:09 am
You wasted all that typing for what… To be the top dog on comments… Do you really have nothing better to do but attempt and fail at belittling people.. You need a swift kick in the chest… ROADHOUSE!!!!
Hehe dont take offence
490 joker
November 19th, 2009 at 1:12 am
there is no proof that jesus even existed, let alone if he was the son of “god”. p.s the image we familiarise with that of jesus is a hoax created by leo davinci, he created the turin shroud dont you know?
491 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 1:25 am
hmm, i admit to skimming some of these comments, i chose to join late in the game. but i myself a self-acknowledged “well known LV atheist” haven’t noticed ianz being uber objectionable. did i just miss it? do we all secretly hate each other all the time?
what did i miss? should i be mad? or are people just getting mad because it’s become that kinda thing?
492 get a clue
November 19th, 2009 at 1:27 am
@Shannon
Thanks for also being completely entertaining. You go all potty-mouth like a kid in an AOL chatroom when he’s home from school because you feel a need to defend an anonymous person whom you think you have a connection with…using lauguage I’m pretty sure you don’t dare use in front of your mother, whatever age you happen to be.
And in the very next post, mere moments later, you go all deep on your Christianity and hope and fear of death. Jesus would be so proud.
Look, if you’re the same Shannon who posted the BS list that got taken down, I need to share this with you: you didn’t learn a thing from your ‘drop back and punt’ moment. All you’re doing is projecting your fears and ‘shoving it down our throats.’ Frater maded the right call. And if you’re not that Shannon, then you’re simply a garden-variety hypocritical Christian who would be amusing if together you all weren’t responsible for at least 1/3 of the wars and abuse and prejudice in this world. (Jews and Muslims get most of the other 2/3rds.)
Next time try and put together a comment that doesn’t reveal your deep-seated misogynism and fascination with scatology. You’ve revealed so much more than you’ll ever know about your fears.
493 TJ
November 19th, 2009 at 1:28 am
Lo if you don’t mind me asking what is the LV for is that like a type of atheist or just short for something… Sorry I am not the sharpest tool in the shed..
494 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 1:29 am
what nasty anti-unbeliever screed did ianz spit out? i’d like to know. i thought he seemed an alright guy who was just firm in his own beliefs, but i could be wrong… show me.
495 fishness.
November 19th, 2009 at 1:29 am
..and the arguments continue!
Great list though! Very true.
496 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 1:36 am
@TJ (493):
sorry TJ, i just personally made up the label of “well known LV atheist” to apply to myself, as i’ve been posting here over a year and have never shied away from my unbeliever reality. it is not some official LV of jamie thing (i happen to know jfra is a catholic who once went to seminary school, we are still mutually respectful LV friends and i totally support his endeavors in growing this site, cause i like him, even if we disagree about god on occasion.)
so yeah, i was just saying people who’ve been reading along a while know i am a non-believer, period. and then i talk about all kinds of other stuff, and we mostly all stay civil.
497 segues
November 19th, 2009 at 1:40 am
@lo (491): lo, as far as I can tell, the people you already like because of their intelligence and wit you can continue to like because of same.
The people you already don’t like because of their tendency to pompous assness you can continue to dislike because of same.
People who are new to us are up for grabs. Some seem to be intelligent, prepare well thought-out arguments, and wait for intelligent well thought-out responses. Others appear to be proselytizing anally for one side or the other, and should be avoided at all costs. Then, of course, there are the trollz. Their treatment is up to you.
498 TJ
November 19th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Ty for clearing that up for me… W/e you believe in is your choice NEVER let anyone try to stop what your mind chooses to believe in
499 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 1:54 am
@segues (497):
thank you my friend. sorry i am like totally absent on facebook, please know that i’ve just been neglecting the entire enterprise, i still totally dig you, as you are a strong lovely woman and artist. (hugs). my friends in the literal neighborhood have had at least equal facebook neglect -i want them to just call me on the phone! -but it seems that age may have passed, sigh…..
and as far as the LV, well, see my comment above yours. what can i do but be honest (and sometimes snarky, but not that time
good to hear from you
500 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 1:59 am
@TJ (498):
i do not understand your comment. all i meant to say was everybody here knows i am a non-believer, and jamie and the LV has zero to do with that. and i i mostly try to play nice, but i will tell no lies to do so. the end.
501 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 2:01 am
damn, i was comment 500. i don’t support the whole “first!” dick-waving, but this was purely accidental.
interesting
502 TJ
November 19th, 2009 at 2:07 am
@Lo its aight man sometimes you just gotta let stuff I say go over ur head.. I hit the bar with the boys and well jumped on here after I got home and well started typing random things I will clearly forget in the morning
Honestly I never know what half you people say.. I am only 20 my mind still has much to absorb and somethings just go through one end and out the other
O and for anyone who is gonna read this and be like “How did you get drunk at 20″ that is why you have boyz they buy the drinks for ya gotta love my bros
503 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 2:12 am
@TJ (502):
what country do you live in?
504 lo
November 19th, 2009 at 2:14 am
i’m gonna say US, as in briton or most of the commonwealth you’d aready be legal to drink, i’ve been drinking too.
have a nice night, boys.
505 Maximuz04
November 19th, 2009 at 2:18 am
Who agrees that only #s 10 and 3 are really “not clear cut” regardless of your stance?
506 flyboyryanfly
November 19th, 2009 at 3:19 am
Yes, I can see how religion is number 1.
All the wars and conflicts it has caused.
Great list.
507 ava
November 19th, 2009 at 3:21 am
lo – 464 – isn’t the term gay and lesbian…
I was only talking about gay men…not lesbian women…
but I will add that lesbian women are just twice as much emotional drama as a hetro relationship…
508 t0hierry
November 19th, 2009 at 4:12 am
I disagree with that list. On the contrary these are the topics people do want to hear about. The fact that heated discussion usually ensues, does not mean we should avoid these issues. Hot debate is not synonymous with Jerry Springer-like catfight. Although the later does sell pretty well.
509 bucslim
November 19th, 2009 at 5:49 am
@Randall (486):
Little brown eel comes out of the cave…
Swims into the hole…
Comes out of the hole…
Goes back into the cave again…
It’s not too good is it Chief?
510 ava
November 19th, 2009 at 5:50 am
486…whats with the JAWS quotes…lol…I read them backwards…
I can’t even believe that I picked that up…I only saw the movie a couple of times years ago…amazing…lol…
511 The Righteous one
November 19th, 2009 at 7:12 am
@Jack b (465): I’m going to hell even though God has made me gay?
512 warlock6
November 19th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Hm.. I thought these 10 topics to be the most popular ones for discussing on the Internet…
513 Randall
November 19th, 2009 at 7:44 am
@bucslim (509):
Here lies the body of Mary Lee. Died at the age of a hundred and three. For fifteen years she kept her viginity, not a bad record for this vicinity…
514 Bella
November 19th, 2009 at 8:12 am
I think everyones entitled to their opinion, and the people who try to change someone elses opinion have nothing better to do than start fights over the internet. It really bugs me when people try and change the beliefs of others. Just thought I should say that.
515 Scratch
November 19th, 2009 at 8:13 am
@jes (387)
So if I identify myself as a Canadian in the South I will immediately receive snickers (as in laughs, not the chocolate bar)?
I have no idea what cat scratch fever is or what it has to do with vaginas. Is this another expression in the South that I’m not in on? Or is just another expression in general that I’m not in on? I’m not in on a lot of things.
I missed the gun reference, but that was just my fate.
516 Bella
November 19th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Oh and I just want to say, some of the comments are hilarious. There are those who are fighting, then there are those trying to stay out of fights. Then there are the people who just comment about nothing in particular. These are my people
517 ianz09
November 19th, 2009 at 8:33 am
@lo (494): Lo, you’re super cool, by the way. I’m going to go ahead and say, addressed to know one in particular, that it is bad when a Christian gets an atheist to side with him over another atheist.
518 ianz09
November 19th, 2009 at 8:37 am
@ava (510): With these two, it’s generally better to just sit back and read along. Questions are useless
519 tripsyman
November 19th, 2009 at 8:40 am
@Shannon (459):
you said Quote:
I’m a Christian and I’ll try to tell you what makes ME tick. I don’t pretend to speak for all creeds and such, but in my case, it’s hope. Pure and simple hope. Not faith . . . I DON’T HAVE A THIMBLES WORTH OF FAITH”
caps deliberate
Like you I am also a Christian and proud but you need to look at a few bible verses brother, these might help!
Mark 16:14
Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith
1 Peter 1:21
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your FAITH and hope are in God.
2 Corinthians 5:7
We live by faith, not by sight.
FAITH IS IMPORTANT MAN
520 ianz09
November 19th, 2009 at 8:44 am
@renegade01 (479): Again, all legit concerns. I just think it is time for reform, and right now universal healthcare has come forth as our best option. I mean, either way we go, we run the risk of power corruption, whether it is the insurance companies or the government. I guess it really boils down to cover your eyes and point, although in my case I’d hope I’d point at socialized medicine.
And again, a legit point. I never set out to convert people though. I know well enough I don’t stand a chance of converting anybody, and quite frankly, don’t care. But, I felt like exposing an ignorant atheist today, and hopefully an ignorant Christian tomorrow.
521 tripsyman
November 19th, 2009 at 8:44 am
Excellent list BTW
522 Czar
November 19th, 2009 at 8:58 am
I can see that evolution is a sience Fact, you guys definetly evolve form a JacK-asses.
523 oouchan
November 19th, 2009 at 9:01 am
@bucslim (509): & @Randall (513): I thought I would join in the fun.
Here’s to swimmin’ with bow-legged women.
524 flyboyryanfly
November 19th, 2009 at 9:05 am
@ Bella!
hahaha!
agreed!
although, out of all this lost probably #4 (holocaust) I personally will not tolerate online!
525 Shannon
November 19th, 2009 at 9:22 am
@Scratch (515):
“I have no idea what cat scratch fever”
Isn’t it a Ted Nugent song with a pretty awesome guitar riff?
526 Shannon
November 19th, 2009 at 9:24 am
@Randall (513): @bucslim (509):
Had to get in on the fun: “YOU’RE GONNA NEED A BIGGER BOAT!”
527 Jay
November 19th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Creationism has “reams of data and boatloads of facts to back up its position”? That is laughable. Well, I guess if you call one ~1600 year old book of fairy tales a lot…
Anything, and I mean anything can (and should) be talked about online. If someone wants to get their panties in a bunch because someone has an opinion, that is their problem.
528 Maggot
November 19th, 2009 at 10:04 am
@Shannon (525): Isn’t it a Ted Nugent song with a pretty awesome guitar riff?
It’s also the name of the album that song is on. That’s about the time ol’ Nuge started becoming a commercial sell-out and parody of himself, and IMO his creative output began to suffer.
Ok so in effort to tie this comment back into our list here, Nugent is a strong gun rights advocate and member of the NRA and at one time was on the board of directors (not sure if he still is). There is talk that he may be a candidate to become president of the NRA.
Also, comparing and ranking the talents of musicians and/or athletes are other topics that end up going nowhere when discussed or debated online. Though I readily admit to engaging in both, when the mood strikes.
529 flyboyryanfly
November 19th, 2009 at 10:11 am
yum panties
530 segues
November 19th, 2009 at 11:41 am
@Scratch (515): The actual definition of “cat scratch fever” is a fairly sever illness one catches from …you guessed it! cat scratches! Their claws tend to have all sorts of ugly bacteria in them from their ventures and kills, and when a pregnant woman gets it the result can be fatal to the fetus.
On a lighter note, cat scratch fever has a decided sexual meaning, and if you can’t figure that one out, you’re too young to know it anyway.
531 Brian
November 19th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Why not discuss the holocaust? We all know it it`s a myth. IF 6 million jews were killed by Hitler, then how come theres FAKE photos? I`ve seen photos of Hitler in a “Death camp,” photo, yet on another photo, it`s the same image of Hitler, except he`s talking to Hermann Goering. The so-called “Holocaust,” is just a myth. Heil Hitler!
532 segues
November 19th, 2009 at 11:51 am
sever = severe
533 segues
November 19th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Brian, stop being an ass and either go away or begin to act like an educated human
534 tripsyman
November 19th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Brian the Troll – sad F*CK
535 segues
November 19th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
@Disciple (402): @segues (390): I have no idea what you’re on about. 390 is not my post. It is the post of someone named named YUN.
As to your question, have I looked inside myself? Yes I have, and I know that while I have areas to strengthen, overall I am on the right track, morally and ethically.
536 krypto092108
November 19th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Whoever thinks that the Holocaust didn’t happen, can think Twice, and very hard each time…
537 krypto092108
November 19th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
I don’t think Brian ever will… So save your wind…
538 Scarlettice
November 19th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
surely its race rather than racial relations? you say ‘the new black president is cool, i guess’ then whoopsy, you mentioned he was black already. you say hes good at his job, you imply he shouldnt be all things considered. you say hes bad at his job, ooh-wee you belong in slavetown. maybe my next blog will be a nice wholesome healthy Obama debate….
539 Freedom Fries
November 19th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
10. You know the two kids in the class room that wouldn’t shut the hell up and kept fighting because of what really started from a desk removal to another desk. They ended up fighting and everyone around them wished they would shut up because of ninja turtles being played on the television.
9. All human beings deserve equilibrium in all dimension.
8. Religious beliefs are personal beliefs. practice by example not by preaching.
7. All human beings deserve equilibrium in all dimension.
6. The only people who can distinguish whether abortion is moral or not are the couple involved. The decision is an autonomous one that only involves the party accompanied with a baby, not a 50 year old potential drunk behind a desk.
5. If the population have no source of defense, how can they defy tyranny.. i know that may be a broad statement, however martial law unjustified is not where you want to be herded like cattle. the laws must remain strict to control gang violence and so fourth.
4. The holocaust is a perfect example of genocide. take that episode of humanity and look at darfur, palestine, and rwanda. It is a prime display of what is cause of unquestioned acceptance of racial supremacy, that goes out to the black supremists.
3. Politics are for kids. Action is for the adult. If you cannot comprehend the illegitimate game that has been played since the construction of the monetary fund and the world bank, then my friend, you need to do more studying. [motorhead - talking head]
2. This can only be answered by opinion.
1. This is a personal topic, debate can only lead to “wow i can see the parallels, and the light!” or “im right, and you are wrong sir”.
540 Tenebrae
November 19th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
It wouldn’t be called the Theory of Evolution if it were a 100% scientific fact. I believe in evolution, but I’m not fool enough to call it “fact”.
It’s a decent theory, but it hasn’t been totally proven within the scientific community.
541 cleooz
November 19th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
you’re so damn right haha
542 Scratch
November 19th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
@ segues (530)
Oooooooooh.
I think I may have this disease.
543 Apostle
November 19th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I’m Christian, but I don’t believe in the Bible.
544 Woyzeck Returns
November 19th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
@Apostle (543):
I’m a prostitute, but I’m a virgin.
545 blacknright
November 19th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Yeah, definitely stay away from my blog, I don’t discuss anything but the big 10.
But if you are not a pansy and can defend your position you are welcome to do so at http://www.blacknright.wordpress.com
The things you say not to discuss is exactly what we all need to be discussing because it is all about life and what makes it worth living. Discussing mulch which is about all you have left after the list is boring. You will probably hate me or love me after you leave my site but you won’t go, “Geez, she is boring! Will someone shoot me now?” [Wait! Is that a reference to gun control?]
546 indiemusings
November 19th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
http://indiemusicmusings.wordpress.com/
Very True, I would say that this list is more of a “things not to discuss if you don’t want to get into an endless debate on the internet”, but overall very well-thought out list.
547 bucslim
November 19th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
@Randall (513):
Mister Taxidermist Man gonna have a heart attack after he sees what I brung him!!!!
548 Bella
November 19th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Did he seriously just say ‘heil hitler’?
Man, some people just love attention, even the negative kind.
549 Themi
November 19th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
This is the platform in which to discuss your Top 10 list. With out it you wouldn’t even have a blog. It was Oxymoronic (I know sorry!)of you to list these in a discussion forum to not be discussed?
550 Apostle
November 19th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Actually, I invented my own religion. It’s called Bitchinism and it consists of alcoholism coupled with irresponsibility. I think it’s really going to take off! I’m honored to be the first Bitchinist.
551 Themi
November 19th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
I though all women were in this club??? It has more than taken off
552 Apostle
November 19th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
@Themi (551): Shit, you’re right. I’m gonna have to think up something more original.
553 Themi
November 19th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
How about Apostlism?
554 dopetype
November 19th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
what a strange name for this list…
why shouldn’t we ever discuss these subjects?
even if it does turn into a debate.
why shoudl be shy away or just ‘shut up’ from voicing our opinions and expecting critique back?
this should be the TOP 10 THINGS YOU SHOULD DISCUSS ONLINE.
555 Apostle
November 19th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
I would try some sort of an offshoot from Christianity, but that’s just too damn bizarre. I mean who in their right mind would believe some insane story about a guy and his son forcing you to live in a place called hell (that supposedly, really sucks) because you have sinned during your lifetime. That story sounds more like an acid trip I was on a few years ago.
556 Apostle
November 19th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
@Themi (553): Hmmm…Apostlism…but what would it be based on? It should be something that will benefit me (like increasing my financial situation) and at the same time, consist of some sort of component that scares the shit out of people.
557 Themi
November 19th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
@Apostle (556): Well when you talk about religion does anyone really make money. OMG, I can’t believe I just said that. Religion is a business in every sense of the word. What I meant to say is – Jesus didn’t make any money (well, for being Jesus…). Not sure if anyone was afraid of him. I think if you want people of fear you, you can accomplish that for sure. I do it at work all the time… lol
558 Decadence Fries
November 19th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
The concepts of Hell and Heaven exist only in the mind of a human being. Therefore, they can only be situated within the reality of the person that conceptualizes hell and heaven. With that said, it would be a “living hell” if i became addicted to crack and walked the city streets like a zombie for chump change and my next high. FEAR THE BIBLE AND YOU BECOME A SLAVE. FEAR THE SOURCE AND YOU BECOME THE SOURCE.
559 Decadence Fries
November 19th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
\|/
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560 Decadence Fries
November 19th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
\\| |//
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561 Themi
November 19th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
-
562 beyondthecrazy
November 19th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I’d mention 9/11 as something you forgot big time, but then I’d be mentioning it online. Also, let’s throw in gender equality, Perez Hilton, and whether we love or hate the “Twilight” franchise. How’s that for a hundred year flame war?
563 Brian
November 19th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Hitler didn`t kill 6 million jews-FACT. Go to holocaust myth photos and see the FAKE photographs, and you`ll soon realize, that this idea, of “6 million jews,” is all a big con. And their`s other websites, where bodies of “Jews,” aren`t jews at all-there dead Armenians! Victims of a REAL genocide! When will people of this country and the world, that while islamic fanatics who want to destroy our way of life, it`s the Jews who DOMINATE our way of life! Remember how a few months ago, Ehud Barack told Condoleeza Rice, to boycott their invasion of the Palestinian territories, and how the BBC and SKY, which is ran by Rupert Murdoch, another jew, didn`t show that appeal for Gaza? Whereas ITV, Channel 4 and Five did? It`s because of the Jews and the lies, that they`ve told over the years, and they CONTINUE to lie to this day. They lie about their nuclear weapon programmes, and they lie about Iran being a global menace. And see that programme on Channel 4, about the links, between Jews, and Labour and the Conservatives? The sooner we realize that Jews dominate the world, and are dangerous the better.
564 Scratch
November 19th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
When all the Jews were inside
the door was bolted. …
The exhaust fumes now poured
into the inside of the truck
so that the people inside were suffocated…
SS-man Theodor Malzmüller
This winter there is a danger that
not all of the Jews can be fed anymore.
One might weigh honestly,
if the most humane solution might not be
to finish off those of the Jews
who are not employable
by means of some quick-working device.
Report to SS-Obersturmbannführer Eichmann
It is one of those things that is easily said.
“The Jewish people is being exterminated,”
every Party member will tell you,
“perfectly clear, it’s part of our plans,
we’re eliminating the Jews, exterminating them,
a small matter.”
Heinrich Himmler
565 Scratch
November 19th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Oh, and, Brian?
Fuck you.
566 GiantFlyingRobo
November 19th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
@get a clue (488):Ianz, you gonna take this one?
567 Bella
November 19th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
@Scratch(565): I completely agree.
568 segues
November 19th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
@Brian (563): I didn’t fully realize, until this post, that Brian was born without a brain. The big clues have always been there, the constant misspellings, the grammar mistakes, the disbelief in history…but in this post he is contradicting himself on every front. He has no grasp of humankind at all, perhaps because he isn’t quite human himself (lacking a brain, and all).
I suppose I should feel sorry for him, but I would rather someone put him away where he’s safe from himself, either that or…well…either that…
569 Bella
November 19th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
I really love this site. The lists are amazing, and the comments always prove to be very interesting.
570 Woyzeck Returns
November 19th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
@Scratch (564):
Frightening that I began to read that post as poetry. Atrocity as Art? Shudders instinctively.
571 krypto092108
November 19th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
@Brian (563):
Brian, please shut up and leave. You are seriously stupid and self endangering…
572 Scratch
November 19th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
@Bella (569)
Yes, I think almost everyone can agree with that one.
@Woyzeck Returns (570)
Now that I look at it again it is laid out like a poem. Ouch. The first few lines must have been quite a shock.
573 Randall
November 19th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
@bucslim (547):
It’s not gonna be pleasant. I value my neck a lot more than three thousand bucks, chief. I’ll find him for three, but I’ll catch him, and kill him, for ten.
574 bucslim
November 19th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
@Randall (573):
Well it does prove one thing, you college educated boys don’t know enough to admit when you’re wrong!
575 Brian
November 19th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
David Irving, the famed historian has researched the holocaust, and says 6 million jews weren`t killed, it was only about 3 million. And he has also found out, that it`s impossible for a pesticide, to kill people. And you telling me-that people would invent “Gas-vans,” designed just to kill people? People made into lamp shades and soap?! Come on, get real! And Elie Wiesel, the “Survivor,” of the Nazis, has changed his stories over and over again. So you don`t have to be the brain of Britain, to realize “The Holocaust,” is a Jewish trick, to gain sympathy and to creat a “Jewish state,” in the Middle East. Will people PLEASE realize this!
576 Cait
November 19th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Hehehe, wow. I’ve discussed every single one of those more than once on more than one website. I still regularly discuss religion, as an agnostic atheist I enjoy the debates. But I, unlike some people, know when to quit. Some people just take it waaaay too far.
I’m on a website for moms (because I’m a mom…duh) and they can be some of the most scathing women I’ve ever seen. Whether it’s politics, religion, and ESPECIALLY abortion (oh boy), they’re some of the most polarizing figures around. Something about being a mom seems to do that to you. Hmmmm.
577 ianz09
November 19th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (566): Nah Robo, I think this one pretty much took care of itself. I don’t need a last word or to wave my metaphorical dick around to know that I have shut down a fool with very little effort. I have better things to do than exchange comments with an idiot online. He had his chance, blew it, had his second chance, blew it again, and now can wallow in his victory that he earned, in his own mind.
578 ChevalierDupin
November 19th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
What an utterly ridiculous way to interject controversial topics while trying not to be controversial. JFrater…your site was at one time a font of wonderful information and an interesting resource for uncommon facts and ideas, but several of these recent lists either reek of banalities, are written with biased opinions that have nothing to do with fact (ie. that list about what makes a man a man), or are inserted, like this one, just to stir up more controversy and insult throwing. If you have learned anything from the Mass Killings list, please try to refrain from posting inane, sordid and uninformative submissions such as this one. It educates no one, it doesn’t present anything new, unique, interesting, or thoughtfully subversive and, if I gather correctly, that is not the intention of this site.
579 Woyzeck Returns
November 19th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
@Brian (575):
That would be David Irving, the pseudo-historian whose work has been overwhelmingly discredited over sources which he has invented and figures he has made up? The same David Irving who enthusiastically hero-worships Hitler?
The pesticide in question is Zyklon B, the active ingredient of which is hydrogen cyanide. And that isn’t lethal to humans? Buddy boy, if you’re breathing something which isn’t oxygen, then it’s lethal. If you’re breathing cyanide, it is very lethal.
The gas vans did exist, several are still in existence, and the reasons for their invention are widely documented. Do you really find it far-fetched that the Nazis would want to invent a cheaper, less stressful and more efficient method of killing people than shooting them? The lamp shades and soap are also still in existence, and there are obvious ways of knowing what they are made from. The fact that you find it hard to believe doesn’t make this untrue.
So you believe the holocaust didn’t happen. In spite of the masses of evidence for it. Literally tons. Despite the records of each individual person who went to the camps and never returned, which are still in existence. In spite of hours of testimony from witnesses, survivors and former Nazis testifying to their existence and conditions. In spite of the fact that many of these camps are still in existence. In spite of the many corpses which were found by people like my great-grandfather when they discovered the camps. You’re trying to say that all of this was fabricated, at great cost, effort and manpower, just so that the Jews could grab some shitty little patch of desert full of people who wanted to kill them? Do you not see how fucking nuts that is?
Let’s review your situation: you are claiming that the Holocaust is a lie. That means that all of the evidence for it was fabricated. This would require hundreds if not thousands of Jews, all producing masses of materials without a hint of forgery and placing them at these camps sometime between the Nazis leaving and the Allies arriving (a window of between weeks and hours). Then you would need hundreds if not thousands of Jews constructing the IBM database, linking it to thousands and thousands of people who were documented as alive before the war but evidently volunteered to go into hiding in the name of the conspiracy. You would need hundreds of Jews typing up testimony from hundreds of former staff and witnesses, and you would need some way of forcing them to stick to their story in spite of years of undeserved imprisonment or death. You would need thousands of people to contract cholera or typhus, to starve themselves for months and to then die shortly after the troops showed up. You would need the remains of millions of bodies to appear out of fucking nowhere. And you would need all of these people to stick to this plan perfectly for the whole of the sixty years since.
And you think that they would plan and execute this fucking insane plan in order to lead Britain to grant them their Palestinian land?
Seriously? Are you fucking crazy?
580 Oldtimer
November 19th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
We are all weak and puny compared to the Universe, and lonely in the night. We embrace philosophies that make us feel more important and less alone. In other words, we chose our tribe on whatever criteria we deem important. We console ourselves by observing, “I may not be much, but at least I’m better than that ahole.” Once we have this structure in place, we rage at anyone who wants to take our comfort zone away from us.
It takes great levels of intelligence and maturity to live with uncertainty.
581 Woyzeck Returns
November 19th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
@Oldtimer (580):
No it doesn’t. Any pubeless schoolboy can live with uncertainty. What has uncertainty given us in the past?
You have to make efforts to figure out what you believe. Because there is always someone with an agenda out there, who is certain about what they believe, who is willing to do anything to force you to think their way.
If you sit on the fence, don’t be surprised when the posts start sliding up your arse.
582 wondersquid
November 19th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
@ianz09 (468): It is a wonderment to me that anyone can look at our massively incompetent and hideously corrupt government and imagine that they can and will improve health care.
583 Scratch
November 19th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
@Woyzeck (579)
Well said.
And to answer the question you posed at the end: Yes, yes he is.
584 Brian
November 19th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Jews are known to be deceitful and selfish. After The First World War, a man called Arthur Balfour offered to give jews “A national home in Palestine.” It was called The Balfour Declaration. He thought, and Jews think that they have a right to live there, because they were kicked out by the Romans 2,000 years ago. but later on, we went back on our word, and the jews started to launch terrorist attacks against us. So we had the scumbags hanged. And some of the people that we wanted to be executed, was Menachem Begin, Israels future prime minister! And the terrorits we executed, there now seen as martyrs! ANd memorials have been built to these lowlifes, who killed British soldiers! Benjamin Netanyahu, who was at the UN, holding “concentration camp plans” is the man who a few years ago, celebrated a hotel bombing, where nearly a 100 people died. Including Jews! So, Jews aren`t prepared to kill other jews in order to get what they want? And Israel demonize Hamas as terrorists? Most of their leaders have been terrorists! Go to List of Terrorist Attacks By Irgun against the British on wilkapedia, to see what Jews are really like. As soon as the jews realize there not the chosen people, the sooner they`ll be peace in the world.
585 astraya
November 19th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
@ ianz09 (226): “my username is pronounced ‘ee-in-zee-oh-nine’”
Damn, I’ve been thinking of you as “ee-in-zed-oh-nine”. And I always thought that oouchan’s name had something to do with the infliction of mild pain.
586 Scratch
November 19th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
@Brian
What is this wilkapedia you speak of and how do I know it wasn’t written by a Zionist?
587 Shannon
November 19th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
@Brian (584):
David Irving is a crackpot halfwit whose “theory” of a made up Holocaust was soundly discredited in a UK court of law.
I really, for a few posts, thought you were being facetious, but now I’m afraid you may seriously believe yourself.
588 GiantFlyingRobo
November 19th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
@Brian (584): “Maybe sometime in the future another raving lunatic will babble on a thread and we can toy with him.”
-Ianz09(Top 10 Controversial Flags)
Please, Ianz?
589 Shannon
November 19th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
@Brian (584):
Also, the Nazis killed far more Tommies than the Irgun ever did.
Next you’ll be trying to convince everyone to read “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” as irrefutable proof of the planned Jewish domination of the world.
590 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 19th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Now writing under a new name as my comments are inexplicably being blocked.
@Brian (584):
You are fucking crazy. You’re attributing personality traits to an entire race of people, in direct opposition to psychological fact. You’re using examples of terrorist attrocities from 80 years ago to try and back up your point. You’re ignoring all the faults in your argument about the Holocaust which I just pointed out. And you can’t even see that you’re doing it. What if I point out to you that British soldiers massacred and raped the Mau Mau, does that mean that all British people are inherently sadistic and barbarous?
And yes, Israel “demonise” Hamas as terrorists. As does the rest of the sane world as they fit all the categories by which a terrorist organisation is measured. Hamas are beneath contempt and should be wiped out. They are the enemies of peace in the Middle East. And note: they are not a race, they are an organisation. So they are *genuinely* commited to the actions which you attribute to the Jews as a people.
I’m going to take a wild stab in the dark here and say that you don’t know any Jews. So how in fuck can you claim to know their mind?
Important question to answer here: what is your profession, and what is your educational background? I really want to know the answers to these questions.
(I posted this three or four times before, but it keeps disappearing. What the fuck?)
591 Bella
November 19th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Fuzzy wuzzy was a bear…
592 ianz09
November 19th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
@wondersquid (582): Better than Bush regime by any means, and I think at this point almost anyone can improve healthcare. The insurance companies are already hideously corrupt, so at any rate I’m gonna give a shot to the government, who at least at this point in time haven’t screwed me over. I’ll take “most likely will fuck you over” instead of “absolutely will fuck you over”, if those are my only two choices.
593 ianz09
November 19th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (588): Oh, maybe a little, although Woyzeck seems to be cleaning up alright. By the way Woyzeck, I’d give it up, we both know this guy is an idiot.
594 ianz09
November 19th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
@astraya (585): I did too. And you would be surprised at how often people make that mistake…
595 astraya
November 19th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
“Only about 3 million people were killed”????
Oh well, that makes it acceptable, then.
596 ianz09
November 19th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
@astraya (595): I LOL’ed
597 Kristi
November 19th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Wow, you just listed off my favorite topics of discussion lol. But- you are right, most people can’t talk about this without starting a flame war. I, however, can….
598 renegade01
November 19th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
@Brian (575):
Wait wait wait, let me get this straight. You’re going to tell me that a HISTORIAN that, as was pointed out earlier, has been discredited several times said that a pesticides could kill humans. I wasn’t aware that idiot historians had so much knowledge about the chemical agents of pesticides. You’re mixing fields here buddy, that should be the first sign this guy’s a dumb ass. Why don’t you go call a pest controller and have him let you breath in his pesticide for a few seconds. Let me know how that works out for ya.
As for the Holocaust never happening, I’m just TRYING to wrap my head around why you believe this. You’re trusting the word of one man, a man who wasn’t even alive in that age, a man who has been debunked about his shit, and you’re going to tell me he’s right and millions of other people are lying. I believe you have been born with a few screws loose and have no business even being legally able to speak. When freedom of speech arose, the people who thought of it must have not foreseen fools like you being birthed.
599 renegade01
November 19th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
*couldn’t kill
my bad x_x;
600 fiataula44
November 19th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
agree with the last one. but people should learn more about jesus(at least the good things about him) so we can live in a better world with no killing and fighting. teen moms and all kinds of moms should not kill their babies. abortion is killing unless it may cause a health issue to the mother or the baby. I had a cousin who was told that she will have to terminate her baby because both her and the baby won’t make it. she took the risk because it says in the bible to give life and not take life. and both her and the baby are alive and very healthy.
601 GiantFlyingRobo
November 19th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
@ianz09 (593): Actually, it was more of an invitation to join me in screwing with him . Oh well, it can wait untill tomorrow anyways. I got to get some sleep. I just hope Woyzeck doesn’t finish him off by then.
602 GiantFlyingRobo
November 19th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (601): Crap, that sounds wrong! And the little smily-face at the end made it worse…
603 Carla Milo
November 19th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
I love George Carlin, he was one of the greatest comedians of all time however, that list is outdated. You baby boomers need to realize your days of running things are just about over.
A blog is just one persons interpretation of something. A story the writer is telling. These lists are meant for people who are uninteresting and follow rules.
Rules are meant to be broken.
If the people who write lists such as this one spent more time reading instead of making lists they might learn a thing or two… the first thing being that reading is much more fun when you actually get something out of it.
Politically correct, censored and boring belong in corporate America not in any artistic field? I enjoy reading/watching/listening to anything that gives a point of view from a different perspective. I was absent on corporate brainwashing day… im certain i wasnt sick or doing anything politically correct.
If people would stop following the guidelines set forth in lists such as this one then i bet I would be able to refrain from embarrassing you in social situations. Everyone deserves their visit from the karma police. This is exactly the reason there is so much prejudice in the world.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. I do and I am not afraid – “Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin”.
PS. I am certain that my blog in some way violates all ten of the said topics above.
Happy Reading.
XO
604 bcs714
November 19th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
I would say this is a very accurate list! But some of these could also make “the most discussed online topics” list
605 Mark
November 19th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
@Carla Milo (603): This list isn’t of things that shouldn’t be allowed to be discussed, or things that are politically incorrect, it’s a list of things that will provoke senseless flaming and trolling if brought up in a conversation.
Reasonable people might (definitely would?) be able to discuss most, if not all of these things, in a rational and reasonably manner. But teh internets is open to everyone, including the bigots and the morons.
606 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 12:31 am
@Woyzeck Uber Alles (590): Didn’t I say Brian was brainless (literally)?
This proves it!
His posts become so offensive that they become blocked, so he posts under another name and announces exactly what he is doing!
DANGER! DANGER! DANGER! Zombie on the list!
607 jesus
November 20th, 2009 at 2:26 am
Hey guys it’s me… Jesus. Just wanted to say HI!
608 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 4:54 am
@jesus (607): @jesus (607):
Hi Jesus! Listen… I’m… really sorry that I keep doing… that thing… you know what I mean… I just can’t help it, dude. I mean, who can, right?
So… will you forgive me? And… seriously… will you please stop *watching*?
609 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 4:56 am
@bucslim (574):
What are you? Some kind of half-assed astronaut?
610 Brian
November 20th, 2009 at 6:05 am
Scrath, just type in Irgun attacks against the British, and it`ll appear. Also type in Zionist political violence. And see the two HANGED British solders, hanging from trees, and the hotel, which has been also destroyed. And Woyzeck Uber Alles, talks about the Mau Mau. who-”We tortured and Raped.” Does he mean THE Mau Mau? The Mau Mau who hacked children to death with pangas? Who took part in blood rituals? THAT Mau Mau? Did we do that er-no. Anyway, suppose millions of jews WERE killed. Do people feel sorry for people who hang our soldiers from trees? I sure don`t!
611 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 20th, 2009 at 6:30 am
@Brian (610):
I’m glad to see you’re no longer claiming the Holocaust is a lie, since I proved beyond all doubt that it happened. In response to the rest of your comment:
I’m going to ask you some very straightforward question, and we’ll see if you can answer them without drooling down the front of your stretched, stained t-shirt.
How many British soldiers were hanged from trees, and how many of the millions of children killed during the Holocaust took part in these murders?
If all of the six million Jews who died deserved it because a tiny number of Jews were responsible for killing British soldiers, what exactly did the mentally-handicapped, the Poles, the homosexuals and the Russians do to deserve it?
Do you believe that the Nazis perpetrated the Holocaust to punish Jews for killing British soldiers?
Who do you think is responsible for the death of more British soldiers, the Jews or the Nazis?
And finally, if you love Hitler so much, why are you so ashamed of the Holocaust that you feel the need to deny it?
612 saber25
November 20th, 2009 at 6:55 am
wow, 613 comment
613 Scratch
November 20th, 2009 at 6:57 am
@Brian
“Scrath, just type in Irgun attacks against the British, and it`ll appear. Also type in Zionist political violence.”
I can’t find this wilkapedia that you speak of.
I have a better idea: Go to the library, ask for books on the Holocaust. Read them. Or, if you’re too lazy or if you have this irrational feeling that libraries are somehow controlled by the pro-Israel lobby, go to the internet and watch videos of dancing gummy bears on youtube – that way you can leave the Holocaust to the grownups who are sane, know it happened, and have read books by qualified historians.
The only way to make Nazism palatable to the gullible is to deny its most heinous crimes. Nazi sympathizers are so enamoured with their ideology that they cannot even see the clear and obvious evidence of the Holocaust. Rather, they focus on any minutaie that has the appearance of calling into question the official record.
Rather than looking for a rational explanation for these details, they use it to immediately justify the boners they get whenever they watch a Hitler speech.
614 ava
November 20th, 2009 at 7:14 am
@ianz09 (518):
Thanks…
615 ava
November 20th, 2009 at 8:25 am
I saw a tv show about how a young Jewish guy went on a quest to do his own doco on the holocaust…after lots of checking and re-checking eventually he had to admit that things didn’t add up…he came away doubting a lot of things…one good point being that the ovens would have had to have been going continuously for years to gas/burn the remains of all the people and as it was war time, where did the fuel come from…it was scarce…many of the so called 6 million just left the warzone anyway they could and popped up elsewhere with different identities etc, their past was dead, so they were counted as dead…
he said the jews were certainly not the only ones, many russians, gypsys, poles, slavs, gays, disabled, JW’s, political activists, spys, freemasons, sick, poor, elderly, diseased, poverty/starvation, old age etc…people of all races were caught up in the net of war…he estimated about 1 million, the rest disappeared, got new identities/lives and thus counted as dead…silently assimilated into other countries…
Does anyone know why Hitler started the war on jews…because they wanted to fuck germany up economically by only trading amongst themselves and helping each other, like the freemasons…so he got in first…the jews run the world financially now, look how that’s turned out…and this is what they tried to do in germany…choke it and control it…don’t tell me if someone tried to do that to your country you wouldn’t protect it…
I’m sick of all this tip-toeing around the jews and being politically correct, this is the past…what are you people doing now…what about the millions of africans being starved, beaten, tortured, murdered, abused NOW…what the fuck are any of you doing about that…nothing obviously, just whining on about the jews cause its politically correct…were any of you there, you know history is always distorted…skewed to support the goodies in the war (whatever side you support)…and what about the german people bearing this generational brunt of hate…how do you think they feel…
what are the jews doing to the palestinians…they are doing exactly what they tried to do to the germans, but now political correctness lets them get away with it…
of course this was a hideous war…what war isn’t full of atrocities, hate, hurt, torture, pain and racism…and isn’t that in our everyday life…
are jews even the real jews, I’ve read that the real jews are the black africans…black hebrews…as I said…anyone of you helping their slaughter now…anyone of you even care…
…NO…NOT ONE…
616 krypto092108
November 20th, 2009 at 8:28 am
@Brian (563):
SHUT UP!
617 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 8:30 am
@Brian (610):
Let me see if I can get this straight. You’re saying that two British soldiers, who entered their career aware of the fact that they’re lives were at risk, are the equivalent of 6 million men, women, children, mentally ill, and physically handicapped? Most of whom had done absolutely NOTHING but be born the way they were? You’re logic fails to make any sense, especially when considering you’re using scattered examples with comparatively few casualties. I am of the opinion you’re out of your damn mind.
618 Chavon
November 20th, 2009 at 8:35 am
great list. of course writing a list on what not to discuss online should be on here…haha….look at these comments. best list all year i would say
619 krypto092108
November 20th, 2009 at 8:36 am
@Brian (584):
SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!
I’M NOT A JEW, MYSELF, BUT I KNOW WHAT KIND OF CRAP THAT SOUNDS LIKE!!!!!!!!
and no, I’m not a historian, but I know what right and wrong are…
And dumbass, YOU”RE DEFINITELY WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
620 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Brian – Your sheer stupidity is above and beyond anything I have ever encountered in my life.
621 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 8:46 am
Also, Brian, one of my best friends is a jew and if he knew where you lived he would kick your ass until there was nothing left.
622 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 9:14 am
@ava (616):
Honest to god, shut the fuck up. You and Brian and people like you don’t deserve to be sharing the earth with the rest of us who are normal and decent and aren’t fucked up in the head with hate.
You watch a TV SHOW and you now think you know what “really” happened during the Holocaust? PLEASE. You think the murder of millions of people was just a phony goddamned CONSPIRACY to make the Nazis look bad and make us all feel sorry for the “Jews”… and that magically, the “Jews” got away with fooling ALL of the rest of us while you “enlightened” folk know the truth? BULLSHIT. It’s not just crazy, it’s DISGUSTING.
ENTIRE ARMIES march into Germany and the occupied countries and find these camps–and find the CLEAR EVIDENCE of the SYSTEMATIC slaughter and horror that went on in EACH one, and they were all just DELUDED? The evidence is all just FABRICATED?
NO, ASSHOLE. You are a fucking fool and it REVOLTS me that people like you open your mouths to spew out your nonsense–when so many fought and died to bring an end to the evil that brought about the Holocaust.
Hitler did what he did to the Jews out of nothing but PURE HATE, because he was a fucking monster, and the Jews were an easy target to victimize, because few would defend them. OH YES, these are the people who “manipulate” the rest of us behind the scenes–The Jews. SURE. The people who believe rubbish like that are stupid, bigoted losers who can’t face up to the failures around them, so they have to find a scapegoat to blame. It’s sickening.
Take your revolting bullshit, you AND Brian, and get the fuck off this site.
623 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 20th, 2009 at 9:26 am
@Randall (623):
“You are a fucking fool and it REVOLTS me that people like you open your mouths to spew out your nonsense”
That’s where you’re wrong, Randall – these pathetic cowards would never say any of this bullshit out loud because they know what would happen to them if they did.
They may be too stupid to understand the truth, but they’re bright enough to understand a boot in their teeth.
“If you can’t acquaint a fascist with the truth, then acquaint their head with the pavement”.
624 ladysmurf
November 20th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Very nice. xD
I couldn’t put it better myself. Thanks for sharing.
625 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 9:30 am
@Woyzeck Uber Alles (624):
Oh god bless me I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT, Woyzeck.
“If you can’t acquaint a fascist with the truth, then acquaint their head with the pavement”.
I can think of no truer words of wisdom. The Buddhist/Gnostic in me may see the Truth in Live and Let Live and Turn the Other Cheek and Love Thy Neighbor, but goddammit, some people just need their fucking asses kicked.
626 ladysmurf
November 20th, 2009 at 9:34 am
I like the fact that whatever was mentioned in this list is being heatedly discussed right now. xD
“Can’t we all just get along?” ;o
627 Scratch
November 20th, 2009 at 9:40 am
@Randall and Woyzeck
As much as I’d like to beat a Holocaust denier’s face into the asphalt, I would have to hold back on principle . . .
. . . and allow it to be done by a veteran, a survivor, or the progeny of a survivor.
628 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 9:43 am
@Randall (626): ‘some people just need their fucking asses kicked’ Yes, some do.
***cough*** ava, brian *** cough***
629 Maggot
November 20th, 2009 at 9:50 am
@ladysmurf (627): “Can’t we all just get along?”
Once a few asses get kicked, then yes.
630 ava
November 20th, 2009 at 9:52 am
lol…boys boys…
the fact that you are so blinded and only see one side of this argument is the reason I see the other side…I am sick of the lop-sided hate in this argument…
do you give a fuck about the palestinians, whom the jews are persecuting…this is happening NOW…
do you give a fuck about africans whom the world has forgotten…this is happening NOW…
NO…so don’t make out you give a fuck about something that happened 70 years ago…
you have no political view, your just indoctrinated by political correctness…your the ones that are terrified to speak out…to speak up, to see both sides of the argument fairly…
you are the fascists…your the ones not allowing any criticism of your status quo…in fact your exactly like Hitler…except your too fucking dumb to even see it…lol…lol…lol….how pathetic are you…
go back to quoting jaws…after all you have no original thoughts…
631 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 9:55 am
@Scratch (628):
How about the progeny of a veteran? That would be me. My dad and five of my uncles fought in WWII, all in combat, against this kind of bullshit. I’d be only too happy to stomp a fascist out of respect for dear old dad and uncles Merle, Paul, Bob, Loren, and Jim. I’m quite sure they’d be pleased.
632 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 9:56 am
@Maggot (630):
@ladysmurf (627): “Can’t we all just get along?”
“Once a few asses get kicked, then yes.”
PRECISELY.
633 ava
November 20th, 2009 at 10:01 am
and I’m not a holocaust denier…
I’m just not a holocaust exaggggggeratooorrrrr…
and the fact that those abusing me are promoting violence speaks volumns as to the kind of people they are…
fascist violent brain-washed thugs…
obviously you emulate Hitler much more than you let on, maybe that is why you deny him so much…
634 gatineau
November 20th, 2009 at 10:03 am
What would Jesus do?
KICK SOME NAZI ASS, BABY!!
635 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
@ava (634):
and I’m not a holocaust denier…
Maybe not, but you are a cocksucking fucker.
636 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 10:07 am
@ava (631):
You call your kind of bilge an “original thought?” Ignoring history, historical EVIDENCE, the testimony of THOUSANDS… that’s an “original thought?”
NO, ava… there is no “argument” here—there is only FACT and TRUTH and then there is DISTORTION and LIES… and the fact and truth is that the Holocaust HAPPENED and no amount of YOUR distortion and lies is going to make it “unhappen” or make anyone believe so. Except the dullest minds—such as your own.
And you clearly don’t know who you’re talking to here. I STRONGLY suggest you re-think matters before you go disparaging the intelligence of certain people on this site–NAMELY ME—because I can promise you, that’s a battle you will NOT win.
AND DON’T give me this bullshit attempt to divert the focus of the discussion–what is going on in the world NOW has nothing to do with the truth of the Holocaust. There is no factual or logical sense in what you’re trying to say. Recognizing the Holocaust does NOT mean that anyone condones or ignores the wrongs that go on today, and you DAMN WELL KNOW IT.
WHO ARE YOU to lecture ANYONE on what is going on in the world now, be it in Africa or ANYWHERE ELSE? And don’t sit there and try to claim some moral high ground–it’s unseemly and absurd.
The fact here is you haven’t the wit to even form coherent sentences, let alone make sense out of your ridiculous, offensive views. You want to think the rest of to be dupes and the like? Be my guest. You enjoy your private little Hell of delusion and hatred and nonsense. But stop spewing it out here. It’s not wanted.
637 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 20th, 2009 at 10:12 am
“If I can shoot rabbits, then I can shoot fascists”.
Ava, your main mistake is in forgetting that we have learned from the past. We do not tolerate fascists. And yes, you are a Holocaust denier. It isn’t an all-or-nothing situation. Tell me, which of the victims exactly do you deny were murdered?
638 Scratch
November 20th, 2009 at 10:21 am
@Randall (632)
The progeny of veterans are definitely included.
I guess I would have to participate too, as the progeny of resistance workers.
(637)
Well said again, Randall.
And Ava? Some of us have friends and family who are survivors of African genocide. So don’t pretend that you can preach to us.
639 ava
November 20th, 2009 at 10:31 am
@Randall (637):
My IQ is 154…so don’t try to intimidate me with your little routine…I have degrees that enable me to think critically…and that is what I’m doing…your views are one-sided…and you haven’t the IQ to comprehend both sides…
As I said, I’m not a holocaust denier and the blind faith you have in evidence and history…they are the easiest things to distort in life…people can’t even pass messages on correctly…so don’t bullshit to me that 70 years hasn’t corrupted something like this…
I’m far from being in hell…I’m a very kind sweet gentle person, I wouldn’t hurt an ant…in fact I don’t even eat animals…how many dead animals do you eat a week…how many animals have died for you…auschwitz for animals…
10 billion animals die for meat-eaters a year…I’m sure that wouldn’t bother you…yet you pretend concern for your own species, only because your the same species…isn’t that hypocritical…
The difference between us is I have an open mind and a kind heart…
640 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 10:41 am
@ava (640):
“My IQ is 154…”
*cough* *sneeze* Sorry I’m allergic to bullshit.
Let’s read a paragraph that you wrote in post 616:
“Does anyone know why Hitler started the war on jews…because they wanted to fuck germany up economically by only trading amongst themselves and helping each other, like the freemasons…so he got in first…the jews run the world financially now, look how that’s turned out…and this is what they tried to do in germany…choke it and control it…don’t tell me if someone tried to do that to your country you wouldn’t protect it…”
And this is written by someone with an IQ of 154?
I definitely smell some bullshit.
641 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 10:47 am
@Davy (641): And here is more bullshit:
The difference between us is I have an open mind and a kind heart…
What the hell was that?! That post you copied clearly shows ‘eva’ has a closed mind and a hateful heart. Just because the rest of us don’t like Hitler. Sad.
642 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 10:50 am
@Davy (641): Just to be clear…that wasn’t me yelling at you.
Just pointing out another ‘eva’ moment.
643 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 10:52 am
@ava (640):
“My IQ is 154…so don’t try to intimidate me with your little routine…I have degrees that enable me to think critically…and that is what I’m doing…your views are one-sided…and you haven’t the IQ to comprehend both sides…”
People who quote their own IQ–let alone KNOW it–are pathetic little insecure souls.
IQ has nothing to do with critical thinking skills, ava. You have none. And please note–I made no mention of IQ. I am not impressed by a number. I’m impressed by what people do and say and how they do and say things.
It’s absurd to brag that you have such a high IQ when you can’t even formulate a decent thought in any kind of a well-written, coherent manner. You might be excused if English was not your native tongue, but even then, a smart enough person will comport themselves well in a foreign language.
And don’t think for a moment that I was making some shallow bluff as an “intimidation tactic.” I too possess multiple degrees ava. And I’d be willing to bet they’re from far more selective and prestigious institutions than you can claim for your own–if you even do, in fact, have any.
Furthermore, I was trained as an historian. So yes, ava—I do know what I’m talking about.
But this isn’t a pissing match. This is about you and your offensive nonsense.
There are NOT “two sides” to the question of the Holocaust. There is only historical FACT… and then there is denial of that fact. YOU are a Holocaust denier, whether you admit it or not. You are denying the scope and breadth of the Holocaust and claiming that most of it was nothing but a ruse–presumably by the Jewish victims (why? As part of their grand plot to manipulate the rest of us?)… you as much stated support for the idea that there were “only” about a million victims—and that the rest “disappeared” via name changes and such into various countries. Uh huh.
And you claim that you are possessed of powerful critical thinking skills?
You can sit there and voice this absurdist, hate-driven nonsense and lies, and with a straight face try to claim for yourself some kind of moral AND intellectual high ground?
SEVENTY years corrupted NOTHING, ava. The Holocaust was uncovered almost IMMEDIATELY upon Allied victory. I have SPOKEN to men who liberated concentration camps and I have heard FIRST HAND what they saw. I have known colleagues who had made *intensive* study of the machinations and logistics of the Holocaust and how the SS carried it out in great detail. I’ve seen testimony from Nazi officials, SS officers and the like about HOW the murders were carried out and how they managed to slaughter of SO many. There has been NO corruption in this information–it was THERE for the taking RIGHT AT THE TIME the Nazi empire fell.
With your little mini-rant about vegetarianism, it becomes quite clear to me that you are a sick individual who needs help. I don’t know if it’s pretended or not, but there’s a definite problem with someone who can wax indignant about the food chain, and then turn around and deny mass murder.
As I said, I’m not a holocaust denier and the blind faith you have in evidence and history…they are the easiest things to distort in life…people can’t even pass messages on correctly…so don’t bullshit to me that 70 years hasn’t corrupted something like this…
I’m far from being in hell…I’m a very kind sweet gentle person, I wouldn’t hurt an ant…in fact I don’t even eat animals…how many dead animals do you eat a week…how many animals have died for you…auschwitz for animals…
10 billion animals die for meat-eaters a year…I’m sure that wouldn’t bother you…yet you pretend concern for your own species, only because your the same species…isn’t that hypocritical…
The difference between us is I have an open mind and a kind heart…
644 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 10:52 am
@oouchan (642): Oh no! If any more bullshit surfaces, my allergic reaction might be so severe I will have to be taken to the emergency room!
645 ava
November 20th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Davy….
if you smell bullshit…get your head out of your arse mate…pretty simple…
oouchan…what about seeing both sides of the story can’t you sad little people comprehend…
646 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 10:57 am
@ava (640):
…Alright look bitch. I don’t know where you’re getting this better-than-you attitude but here’s the thing. I fin it incredibly, INCREDIBLY, hard to believe that someone like you, who types like they’re fucking 7 YEARS OLD, has a 154 IQ and several degrees. Half of the bullshit you’re spewing out here is completely incoherent because you can’t even use a fucking PERIOD for God sakes. My 2nd grade little brother has more sense than you in grammar.
Do you KNOW anything about natural selection and survival of the fittest? Most of the animals we eat have short life spans and relatively swift reproduction and maturity rates. Do you have any guess as to why this is, my self proclaimed genius friend? The reason this is, plain and simple, it because they are here to BE eaten. Take rabbits for instance, they have no use other than to be eaten by larger animals. That’s why there’s so fucking many of them. All of the animals that HUMANS cause extinction to are animals that are hunted for game and not for food. So you’re bullshit argument for the animals is absolutely fucking retarded.
You are no better than anyone else. You sit here and proclaim to be enlightened about how we should look at the now, but instead of actually putting effort into fucking DOING something about it you sit on an internet website and spew loads of bullshit. You’re not impressing anyone.
647 gatineau
November 20th, 2009 at 10:58 am
@Davy (641):
Funny. But your allergy to bullshit was definitely a quote from a movie or a TV show. I just can’t put my finger on it.
I have a feeling this is gonna bother me for the rest of the day.
648 Cindy
November 20th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Save a cow, Eat Ava.
649 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Obviously I accidentally left some of ava’s quoted text in my last reply. MY text ends with the paragraph that ends “deny mass murder.”
650 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 11:01 am
@ava (646): What 2 sides? You got to be kidding me. Millions die today and you have a hard-on about that, but don’t seem to give a crap or flat out deny millons died before? You are a joke.
651 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 11:02 am
@ava (646):
I’m not a bull, ava. I would be extremely surprised if your IQ was any greater than 50, after your last comment. I would think it was pretty obvious that a bull can’t sit a desk and type.
652 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:02 am
@ava (640): My IQ is 154…
My left nut is running for re-election in the Shire against newcomer Republican candidate Jerry Seinfeld. Oooh, this is fun! People, lay off Ava, I kinda dig this person… Let me try again.
My best friend is king of the moon and I get can go up there and get lattes and play ring toss with midgets whenever I want. Sweeeeeeet.
I’m far from being in hell…I’m a very kind sweet gentle person, I wouldn’t hurt an ant…in fact I don’t even eat animals…
Pussy
10 billion animals die for meat-eaters a year…I’m sure that wouldn’t bother you…yet you pretend concern for your own species, only because your the same species…isn’t that hypocritical…
I’m going to buy a cheeseburger now.
The difference between us is I have an open mind and a kind heart…
Yay! Another one! Ok, my turn… I have a magic stress ball that when you squeeze it a genie comes out and throws chimpanzees at you until you guess the password, then he takes you to Dairy Queen for ice cream and LSD.
Fucking beat that shit.
653 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:03 am
@gatineau (648): I, Robot, starring Will Smith.
654 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 11:05 am
@Cindy (649): I love that comment. I second it!
@ianz09 (654): I was just about to reply with that! Crap you beat me to it.
655 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 11:06 am
@ianz09 (654): Crap, I underestimated you ianz09.
656 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 11:07 am
@ianz09 (653): Haha that was hilarious. I literally rolled on the floor, laughing!
657 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:08 am
@Davy (656): Many do, Davy. And now, they are at the bottom of a lake, with cinder blocks tied to their feet.
People think I’m crazy, but they’re just jealous that God talks to ME through the magic 8 ball.
658 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 11:10 am
@ianz09 (653): Fucking beat that shit.
Just for you: My cat tells me what to type.
659 ava
November 20th, 2009 at 11:14 am
People…do you think I give a fuck about your whiny little insults…it just shows me the sort of people you really are…
Yes…I am better than you…and the fact you think an animals life is worth nothing shows me how little you know or feel…
Randall…yes I do enjoy quoting my IQ number…cause I get a good giggle out of quoting it…because your response is the only response people ever give…
Seems you’ve all forgotten about Brian now…got someone new to hate….lol…how easy it is to fuck with the minds of ego-driven slaves…
Adios Amigos…
660 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 11:14 am
My turn, ianz09! I’ve got a light bulb with miniature giraffes floating out of it that doesn’t stop until I deep fry a hippo.
661 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:15 am
@oouchan (659): I have got to meet this cat!
Of course, my friend’s cat takes the cake for (redundancy alert) saddest living being alive. He is 21 pounds, neutered, and (pun alert) a pussy.
Flipping win against that stuff.
662 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 11:16 am
@ava (660): Obviously it bothers you to post a comment about it. Fail.
663 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 11:21 am
@ava (660): So you think I’m an idiot? ha. You couldn’t have been more mistaken. I’m, to put it simply, a fun-loving guy who likes listverse and hates assholes, like you.
664 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:22 am
@ava (660): People…do you think I give a fuck about your whiny little insults…
Kinda…
Yes…I am better than you…
I doubt that. I got a DNA test to determine my ethnicities, and the results came back saying I was 100% win. Sorry, it’s genetics
Randall…yes I do enjoy quoting my IQ number…cause I get a good giggle out of quoting it…
Cause it’s a joke, right? Yeah, made me giggle, too.
Adios Amigos…
Adios! Tu madre chupa mi pene! Eres feo, y no tienes amigos! Gracias, pendejo!
665 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 11:22 am
@ianz09 (662): This one is 18 pounds and looks like the Godfather. Scary and likes to glare at everyone. He is ruler of the house and tells me daily to get rid of the dog. He’s is also neutered but far from a pussy.
666 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:24 am
@oouchan (666): Geez, why haven’t you gotten rid of the dog yet? If that thing lived with me, I’d listen to him. Plus, he talks, which is simultaneously awesome and scary and hell
667 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Proof that I am evil. F*uck getting first. Feels better getting 666!
668 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 11:25 am
@ianz09 (665):
I’m pretty sure that comment just single handedly made my day lol
669 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:26 am
@oouchan (668): You’re cat is on your profile now, isn’t he?
670 Unicorn Farts
November 20th, 2009 at 11:26 am
@ava (660): the fact that you have utter disregard for your own race and yet will refrain from eating meat (sexual pun? i think so) is pretty much the epitome of your existence: fuckin retarded. hasta la vista, puta.
671 Davy (pretending to be the Righteous one)
November 20th, 2009 at 11:27 am
@oouchan (666): You’re doomed forever, oouchan. Look at your comment number! You will go to hell!
672 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:28 am
@renegade01 (669): I’m on a roll. I’m not usually this clever
673 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Sorry, I couldn’t help it.
674 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 11:32 am
@ianz09 (673):
Bahaha I dunno, the other sarcastic one had its moments but that last one..I dunno. It just had something that gave me the chuckles. Good job, I applaud your efforts lol. I mean at this point is there anything you can do but make jokes out of this crazy lady?
675 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 20th, 2009 at 11:33 am
I’d just like to point out the similarity between Brian and Ava’s styles of writing, the fact that Ava appeared when Brian stopped commenting and the downright obviousness of this statement:
“Seems you’ve all forgotten about Brian now…got someone new to hate….lol…how easy it is to fuck with the minds of ego-driven slaves…”
Obvious troll is obvious.
676 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:36 am
@Woyzeck Uber Alles (676): You know, I feel kind of dumb for not having caught that until you pointed it out. But in hind sight, damn.
677 ava
November 20th, 2009 at 11:36 am
@Woyzeck Uber Alles (676): You got it genius.
678 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 11:39 am
@renegade01 (675): I mean at this point is there anything you can do but make jokes out of this crazy lady?
Nope, just the jokes. You would be surprised at just how fun it can be
679 gatineau
November 20th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Brian and Ava are the same person?
Trans.
680 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
@gatineau (680): looks like it
681 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
@ava (678):
But you see, I was right. You’re a sick individual and really should get some help.
Now seriously—go. You have no place here, you have nothing to say or offer, and you can’t answer anything written in response to you, because you have no answers. You’re a liar (you clearly possess no degrees, and you’re lucky if your IQ scratches 100, let alone 154) a racist, a delusional, sociopathic weirdo, and a Holocaust denier. And such people have no place in our civilized society, such as it is. It’s bad, but it isn’t that bad yet.
682 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Is it only me, or does anyone else get the feeling that “ava” is only one of Brian’s alter egos?
683 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 11:51 am
@gatineau (680): Ah! You beat me to the thought.
684 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 11:53 am
@segues (683):
Yes, he/she has admitted as such. And he/she thinks he/she’s quite clever for it, which shows the low level of intelligence that this nutcase possesses. As though it’s some great trick to create multiple aliases on a web page and pretend to be more than one person. And as though it matters.
Again, we’re dealing with another warped sicko.
685 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 11:58 am
~sigh~ I am sooooo ready for my vacation.
686 oouchan
November 20th, 2009 at 11:58 am
@ianz09 (670): No. My profile pic is from a favorite yaoi anime. Haru wo Daite Ita.
687 Unicorn Farts
November 20th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Ava/Brian reminds me of my Aunt Kevin.
688 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
@oouchan (687): Lol I meant your talking, evil cat was logged onto your profile, hence the 666 and what not. My bad lol
689 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
@Randall (685): The first clue was ava’s brag of a 154 IQ. Now, I have children (adult children) with IQ’s that high or higher, and there was no evidence of even a high double digit IQ. Then the sickening Holocaust business and the cement was dried…of course there were a lot of small hints in there, too, but those were the big ones.
Oh! I do happen to know my IQ, but totally by accident. We were given a test in high school and my best friend was given the task of filing them in our permanent records. When she came to my result she put it aside until she could call me in and show me.
690 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
*yawn* the ‘asshole flaming’ is over. Time to go… See y’all later
691 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I’m becoming tired of battles with creationists, conspiracy theorists, Holocaust-deniers and the like. The first time it has some novelty to it, and it’s pleasant to throw facts and reality and logic in the faces of fools.
But if you think about it, folks, as time goes by it becomes wearying. Because the great majority of these people *are* sick. And I do mean that, it’s not some bit of hyperbole. I’ve seen enough of them here, and have detected the little signs and clues in their syntax that strongly suggest delusional personalities, if not downright mental illness.
The very idea that, in the world we’ve known, the world which is clearly established, that people can try to deny the mass murder of millions… whether it be the Holocaust, or the genocide of the Armenians, or the millions killed by the communists…
The very idea that in this modern world of science and understanding, there are people who cling not just to religion–which is fine, that’s their perogative, and religion certainly has value in a place in some people’s lives–but also cling to anti-scientific ideas that deny evolution….
And the very idea that people can actually believe ridiculous theories about “secret” plots that *really* brought about 9/11, or that the moon landing wasn’t real, or that “Jews” really control the world…
All this saps my soul. I don’t know about the rest of you, but having to even get near such people makes me feel depressed and tainted.
So don’t be surprised if occasionally these little battles begin and you find yourselves going, “where’s Randall?” Because I’m over here sad for the state of our civilization. I really should learn to accept the coming debacle, if indeed it is coming. Revel in it, even, as some have suggested. I’m just not quite there yet.
692 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
@segues (690):
Well, I didn’t mean to dis people who know their own IQ. I just don’t care about IQ. I honestly have no idea what mine is. I’ve taken online IQ tests for a lark and it comes out to about 140 or so each time, but I have no idea how accurate those things are. I know I had it done in school when I was a kid, but I have no memory of what it was.
You know I have a pair of very smart, snarky daughters that I’m very proud of. Well, I once jokingly suggested that they take online IQ tests (I don’t think they’ve had them done in school, at least not yet) and my oldest gave me a withering look and answered something that went along the lines of “fuck that shit.”
I knew a couple people once who were in Mensa. They were obnoxious and full of themselves. I made it a point to resist their suggestions that I join. Which is not to say that everyone in Mensa is a dick. I don’t know that. But it’s just the kind of thing I want no part of.
693 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
@ianz09 (520):
Sorry, TOTALLY just noticed this lol. My bad. Well I can see where the hope for universal healthcare and the like stems from. In theory socialism is a great thing and I would love to have a truly successful society where socialism works. However, as history has shown us, Someone just gets corrupt in the end. I believe the government SHOULD do something about healthcare, but at the expense of bankrupting the healthcare companies and those who work for them out of a job? I just don’t find the risk worth the reward at present.
As for the religious thing…well…what can I say? I feel the same way. I’m all for people believing whatever they feel like. However those who believe something they know nothing about truly angers me, especially when those people try to thrust their beliefs onto other people. I tend to think religion IS a good thing. It’s a great way to build a community, give people hope, and make you appreciate the world a little more. However it’s just so often taken to extremes by the ignorant, corrupt, selfish and uneducated that it causes tragedies such as The Crusades or 9/11.
694 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
@Randall (693):
“I knew a couple people once who were in Mensa. They were obnoxious and full of themselves. I made it a point to resist their suggestions that I join. Which is not to say that everyone in Mensa is a dick. I don’t know that. But it’s just the kind of thing I want no part of.”
Ugh, see that I can agree with totally. There’s just something about a lot of really intelligent people forming an exclusive club that annoys me. Just the idea of it seems rather self centered, ya know? Mensa and The Jasons, but I can at least see a purpose behind The Jasons.
695 Maggot
November 20th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
@Randall (693): I knew a couple people once who were in Mensa. They were obnoxious and full of themselves. I made it a point to resist their suggestions that I join. Which is not to say that everyone in Mensa is a dick. I don’t know that. But it’s just the kind of thing I want no part of.
My personal mantra is (borrowed from the great Groucho Marx):
“I don’t care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.”
696 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Randall, I know these people are mentally ill. It sickens me that they are out among us, rather than being cared for properly in a mental health facility, by professionals.
Yes, they have weird, sick ideas which propel them through life and, very often, make them dangerous to themselves and others. They need help and they need it now.
They won’t get it.
They will, eventually, do themselves damage.They’ll act out on their fantasies, rage at the ones they perceive as the enemy, and probably do bodily harm. They’ll end up in prison instead of psychiatric care, and make enemies of all the prisoners.
If, by debacle, you are referring to 2012, by God man! You know better. There will be no debacle. I’ll even make you a bet. I’ll meet you for drinks on Dec. 13, 2012 and we’ll laugh at the whole thing!
697 Luger
November 20th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I shoot at my wife if dinners not cocked properly lol I never had an arguement about gun control on the net .
Check out my blog http://www.Luger992.wordpress.com
698 Maggot
November 20th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
@Luger (698): if dinners not cocked properly
“Cocked”? Um, put me down as a “no” on the rsvp for your dinner invite.
699 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
@segues (697):
No, I wasn’t referring to 2012. Please—you know me better than that.
I was referring to the evident coming end of our western civilization, and probably global civilization. They thought it was ending in the 30s and 40s and they were wrong, but it’s getting more and more tired and sick and twisted it seems to me. It’s a slow, slow death. Might take a few hundred years more… but I doubt it. We might not descend into an actual dark age–might just be a time span of utter, total crap with nothing to recommend it, before something new and healthy comes along. But I’d say it’s coming.
Maybe not. Maybe this age of decadence is just us standing at the precipice, and then at the last minute we’ll veer away and head back in a better direction. But I’m not holding my breath.
And that’s just the cultural side of it. Think of our dependence on technology! That’s going to hell sooner or later, unless we do something about our energy needs. That’s only increasing, and the resources are DEcreasing.
We think we’re impervious to extinction, too… but we’re not. Think about it: it is a definite fact that sooner or later another KT-type impact will happen—and possibly one even larger. That could very conceivably wipe us out as a species. Now… if we manage to get off this planet–colonize Mars at least, and perhaps a find a way to other stars—then the species is saved. There’ll always be humans somewhere, then. You’d have to have an inconceivable calamity to finish us off completely.
But we’re already nearly at the point where our energy demands and needs will outstrip our ability to spend the resources on space travel and furthering technology for that. Eventually we’ll be so low on energy resources that we won’t be able to afford high technology. And we’ll then slip back into… what? A pastoral life? Not without some serious problems. But eventually we WILL slip back. And then what? Then the rock from space will come, still—and we won’t be able to stop it then. We’ll be like the dinosaurs, only worse, because at least they had the excuse of not having the brains to prevent their own extinction.
We have to keep at this shit NOW if we’re going to survive as a species. There are 6 billion of us. Even if food production continues to grow in efficiency, the estimates I’ve seen make it out that the earth can only support about 10 billion of us, maybe 12. Even if we go full out with optimism and say the earth can handle 15 billion of us–how long before we get there? Not that long. And the energy demands will outstrip us long before we get there.
Even if we can make fusion work, it won’t be cheap. It’ll be fucking expensive. The age of cheap energy is over. At least for now.
We’re on a rollercoast ride now, of technology. We either keep pushing it, and pushing it, and get off this planet in the process–or we fall back and lose everything. We might never get back to this level again, because we’ve nearly used up all the oil and much of the coal. Nuclear fission is dirty and dangerous and limited. Solar we haven’t yet found a way to work efficiently enough—and even all together, solar, wind, geothermal and hydrodynamic cannot match our needs.
The future goes either way—either we grow out of this step in our ascendancy and move to the next level (whatever that is)—or we falter and that’s the end. There’s no third road.
And what do we have all around us? A growing stupidity, a growing movement of barbaric anti-intellectualism, an increase in superstition, and more greed and self-satisfaction, insulated from the rest of humanity. It doesn’t bode well.
700 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
@Randall (700): So true.
701 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
@Randall
(700): And yet I have a
center of peace within me. I understand and know, absolutely,
everything you say, yet somehow there is this center of peace. It could
be denial. I’ll grant you that, but I believe that while the world is
full of “barbaric anti-intellectualism, an increase in superstition,
and more greed and self-satisfaction, insulated from the rest of
humanity”, there are also the intellectuals working on the very problems you discuss, people such as physicist Dr. Michio Kaku.
One of him is worth a thousand Brians.
All of your points are valid, and there is always a chance of catastrophe. The human race hasn’t been around very long, and we have a lot to learn. Yet just look at how much we have learned in such a short time! I believe we’ll learn to move to the next level, our continued existence depends on it.
There may be one factor that makes me more positive than you, Randall. I live in an area which is in a federally and state protected park. The ocean and the land are both totally protected, my village is tiny, I have deer in my yard and my ocean is pristine. Living like this gives you a serenity, a peace, a center of calm that is immovable.
702 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
@Randall (700):
“Necessity is the father of invention.”
I tend to think that nobody really knows about how big a threat all this is. I mean, they know, they’ve heard it, but they don’t know it’s as serious as it is. Eventually humanity is gonna get a swift kick in the ass. When that happens I tend to think, or perhaps hope would be the better word, that humanity will find a way to survive and thrive over anew.
703 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
^or is it “…mother of invention.”? I’ve heard both and am not entirely sure which is the correct way.
704 Brian
November 20th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Oh, so it`s okay, for Jews to kill our soldiers, and hang them from trees? You`re OBVIOUSLY an American. you`re like these, who CELEBRATED our soldier`s being killed when we were fighting Jewish terrorists. Consider this quote from an American newspaper when we were fighting jewish thugs-”I have a holiday in my heart, everytime a Brit is killed.” And you clearly have no history, of The Middle East, and Jewry. You just see “the poor little Jews,” against “The Evil Arabs.” And what I don`t understand why Scratch can`t find websites about Jewish crimes. There EASY to find! And why do we continue to slag off Hitler? he was an Anglophile. It was on that Channel 4 programme “Empire,” about the er, Empire. and Avraham Stern? ever heard of him? of course jews were victims of Hitler!
705 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
@renegade01 (703): It’s “Necessity is the mother of strange bed-fellows”.
706 Maggot
November 20th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
@renegade01 (704): or is it “…mother of invention.”? I’ve heard both and am not entirely sure which is the correct way.
Get with the program, man:
http://www.united-mutations.com/m/mothers_of_invention_biography.htm
707 Scratch
November 20th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
@Brian
What I can’t find is this wilkapedia that you referred to.
708 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
@Brian (705): I thought we made it clear that we don’t appreciate anti-semitic comments on this site, Brian.
709 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
@Scratch (708): lol
710 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Damn it! I just wanted to mess with the troll, but NO! Precious little Woyzeck scares him away before I get to! But that’s not what bothers me, it’s that it happened TWO times in a row! Randall does away with Ava before I even know she’s there! Seriously Randall, you don’t have to take all of the trolls. And don’t tell me that everyone overworks you by waiting for you to do all the dirty work, because I (despite the fact that it’s true that some do) I don’t!
711 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Aw, crap! I waited to long to post that… Sorry.
712 Brian
November 20th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Scratch, it`s easy to find some of the horrors that Jews have done over years. like I said before, type in List of Terrorist Attacks by The Irgun, Zionist crimes, just type in anything to do with jews and zionsts, and you`ll find terrorists attacks against the British, massacres in Palestine and Lebanon, assasinations, everything! Jews even treat the Yanks, their greatest ally, with contempt. they`ve spied on them COUNTLESS times, they blew up a boat, and everytime they massacre, maim or kill innocent people, they say, “we suffered under Hitler remember.” which is a LIE. They FOUGHT for him, for god`s sake! But of course people fall for all that tripe.
713 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (711):
Go get ‘em tiger. The nutcase is probably still lurking around.
714 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
@Brian (705): “Oh, so it`s okay, for Jews to kill our soldiers, and hang them from trees? You`re OBVIOUSLY an American.”
Quick question; who the hell are you talking to?
“you`re like these, who CELEBRATED our soldier`s being killed when we were fighting Jewish terrorists.”
Ohh! That’s why I woke up this afternoon hung over with no clothes and tied to a fire hydrant! I was celebrating national Screw-Innocent-Brits-and-Praise-Evil-Jews Day! Yeah, the parties sure are crazy, what with…uh…I don’t really remember what happens at them, just that they’re fun, with alot of people drinking, and we burn an effigy of Winston Churchill. You know, I guess this probably also explains why I crapped out a condom today…
“Consider this quote from an American newspaper when we were fighting jewish thugs-”I have a holiday in my heart, everytime a Brit is killed.”” Ridiculous! We have holidays in our stomachs, not our hearts! Oh yeah, and you were right about that conspirasy theory you have, we do eat the flesh of dead Brits. Though a nice juicy Arab is good to eatevery once in a while, too.
“You just see “the poor little Jews,” against “The Evil Arabs.”” ‘Poor’?! ‘Little’!? You have no right insult our gods like that!(Yes, we also worship Jews)
“And what I don`t understand why Scratch can`t find websites about Jewish crimes. There EASY to find!” I’m afraid googling it’ll take me to a bunch of fetish sites. You’d be suprised about how many there are…
“And why do we continue to slag off Hitler? he was an Anglophile.” Quick Question #2: How come that didn’t stop him from bombing the crap out of London?
Oh well that’s enough for now, gotta go take down our Screw-Innocent-Brits-and-Praise-Evil-Jews Day decorations!
715 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
@Brian (713): Okay,
I won’t even try to tackle this one whole. I’ll just make one remark and be off.
“Jews even treat the Yanks, their greatest ally, with contempt. they`ve spied on them COUNTLESS times, they blew up a boat, and everytime they massacre, maim or kill innocent people, they say, “we suffered under Hitler remember.” which is a LIE. They FOUGHT for him, for god`s sake! But of course people fall for all that tripe.” Yum, tripe! Dang it, now I’m the mood for menudo!
716 Scratch
November 20th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
@Brian (713)
You are completely idiotic on so many levels that I don’t even know where to start. Mostly, your idiocy stems from the fact that, despite being an idiot, you suffer from the delusion that you possess critical thinking skills.
I’ll help you out. You thinking you have critical thinking skills is sort of like a large rock thinking that it can outrun a gazelle. See, because large rocks can’t run and you don’t have critical thinking skills.
It should be pointed out that large rocks can’t think. Despite this, they do possess greater critical thinking skills than you.
This can only lead to the inevitable conclusion that you are dumber than a large rock.
I honestly don’t believe that I need to debate you because the steaming pile of gibberish that you call arguments has already been exposed, and ninety per cent of the people who read what you type are shaking their heads in awe at your complete and utter lack of anything even remotely resembling intelligence.
If aliens stumbled onto earth and only had your posts to read, they would leave with distinct impression that civilization, intelligence, and culture never existed on this forlorn planet.
Listen, my grandparents and great uncles and aunts were there when the Jews were taken away. They saw it happen, they even hid some of them. Guess what? Two thirds of the Jews didn’t return.
You’re not only calling into question the established historical record, but you’re claiming that my ancestors were part of this grand conspiracy.
Go wack off to Nazi marching tunes or whatever it is that you Hitler lovers do.
717 Davy
November 20th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (715):
Nice job, junior.
*winks at Randall*
718 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (715): Damn Robo, you can bust out with some troll burnings when you want to.
You know, I guess this probably also explains why I crapped out a condom today…
I LOL’ed
719 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
@Scratch (717): clap… clap… clap, clap, clap, clapclapclapclapclapclapclap
that’s me starting a slow clap
720 Brian
November 20th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
I`m not a madman. EVERYTHING that I said is true. Jews are murderers, liars and thieves. Doesn`t anyone know anything about Jews? look, Jews-Zionists-Israeli`s, whatever the hell they call themselves, there not victims. why would people who claim to victims, murder, torture, kill and rape people? Martin Luther-heard of him? he was so right.
721 archiealt
November 20th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
722 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
@ianz09 (720): And before Maggot reads this, this pertains in no way to sexually transmitted diseases
723 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
@Brian (721): @Brian (721): I’m Catholic, and even I think Martin Luther was a anti-semetic jerkwad.
724 Scratch
November 20th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
@ianz09 (720 and 723)
So you’re the one who started the slow clap. I’ll have you know that it’s not slow at all. It burns, it burns.
@Brian (721)
What’s that boy? You’re not crazy AND you think an entire group of people is degenerate AND you’re appealing to authority from a man who threw a bottle of ink at an imaginary devil as proof of your sanity?
Here’s your logic:
A) Jews claim to be victims.
B) Some Jews have murdered, killed, and raped.
C) Therefore Jews can’t be victims.
This works for other things:
A) You’re batshit crazy.
B) Bat’s shit while flying.
C) Therefore you can fly.
A) You’re dumber than a big rock.
B) Big rock concerts are loud.
C) Therefore loud people can throw big rocks at you.
A) Joseph Stalin was portly.
B) I saw a fat guy leering at a schoolgirl on the bus.
C) Therefore Joseph Stalin had lecherous sex with your mother.
725 Kennoth
November 20th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Over dramatic list, interesting nevertheless
726 ianz09
November 20th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
@Scratch (725): I was going to quote the bits that made me laugh, but a duplicate comment is simply annoying. Clap… clap…
727 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
@ianz09 (719): Thanks! I guess retards just bring out the fun and humor of me! And I was also kinda worried no one would think that one part was funny, so I’d end up being called out for being both horribly unfunny AND gross! Like that one time Davy pretended to be Randall’s mom(no offence, Davy). Yeah, I think I’m getting the hang of funny. And just to make sure Brian acknowledges me(for I doubt that he grasps the concept of sarcasm), Brian is a neo-nazi, insane, guano-crazy, retard who deserves to be put into a mental institution.
728 Brian
November 20th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Stalin was Jewish.. and so was Beria, his evil sidekick. Jews victims? Yeah right.
729 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
@Brian (729):
I’ve just come in from a night drinking with a friend in the west end of London, and this is my wisdom to you:
GET A FUCKING LIFE!
730 renegade01
November 20th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
@Brian (721):
“I`m not a madman. EVERYTHING that I said is true. Jews are murderers, liars and thieves.”
OH OH OH!!! I want to makeup the truth too. Hmm, how about this? It isn’t the earth’s gravity that hold us on the planet. In reality, there are these tiny little gnomes. Yes, I said gnomes. They reach up and grabs the bottom of your shoes and hold them down so you don’t fly off. They have a particular interest in women because they like to look up their skirts. Gotta be careful, they’re horny little bastards.
“Doesn`t anyone know anything about Jews?”
Jews? Isn’t that what you drink in the morning? That stuff high in Vitamin C?
“why would people who claim to victims, murder, torture, kill and rape people?”
Have you ever done any of those? I mean, you wouldn’t believe the rush. Plus all the difficulty of erasing the evidence. You wouldn’t believe all the trouble I’ve had getting away with it for the last few years. I like using snow, pack it down the throat of an unconscious victim and it will suffocate them, then when the body heat melts the snow it gets rid of any fingerprint.
731 youngboyt
November 20th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
haha,time to really kick things up a notch. let’s talk about all the middle easterners who are homosexual,don’t believe in jesus,supossedly survived the holocaust,hate german people,keep getting abortion,carry thousands of guns,voted for obama,and believe in evolution.
look at what hell i hath unleashed,haha
732 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 20th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Brian, I am extremely proud of my great-grandfather, whose greatest achievement was his position in the British army, which allowed him in 1944-45 to shoot people like you, and to command others to shoot people like you.
You scum.
I envy him the opportunity. Know that given the chance, 90% of the Western world would put a bullet in your skull and walk away from it thinking nothing more than they’d put down an overweight pig. What is your profession again? Oh yeah, you’re unemployed. What are your qualifications again? Oh yeah, you have none. I can’t decide whether it is your politics or the pathetic state of your life that disgusts me more. Maybe if I was close enough to smell you I’d be able to decide… but if I was that close, I would end your flabby pussy life, with joy and laughter.
Enjoy the rest of your life, knowing that the world doesn’t care about you. Know also that no-one apart from Ava (your right hand) would ever be able to bring themselves to touch you.
Enjoy the video…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysLnZqIyFNE&feature=related
…and remember that for some people like you, this was the last thing they heard before they were shot like the dogs they were.
733 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
@renegade01 (731):…”It isn’t the earth’s gravity that hold us on the planet. In reality, there are these tiny little gnomes. ”
It isn’t gravity that holds us to the earth.
The earth sucks.
734 astraya
November 20th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Damn, I was just about to say that!
735 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
@Brian (729): @Brian (729): No retard, he was an atheist(score one for religion!). Do you even know what communism is?
736 Scratch
November 20th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
@ianz (727)
Thank you kindly.
@Brian (729)
Waaait, so if Stalin is Jewish and he had lecherous sex with your mother wouldn’t that make you Jewish?
Right, I forgot, it’s inherited through the mother’s side and your mother was a sow. This, taken with the fact that Stalin wasn’t even remotely Jewish, means that you’re half-pig and half mustachoied Communist paranoid.
737 Dexter
November 20th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Interesting point, that at least 6 of the 10 are often discussed in religious terms. Religion really is the biggest source of conflicts, disharmony and suffering in the world. Dawkins is right, it IS the root of all evil.
738 segues
November 20th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
@Scratch (725): While your idea that Brian might be the result of a clandestine meeting between Stalin and Brian’s mother, I have it on good authority that Brian is the result of abiogenesis, more commonly known as spontaneous regeneration. That is, he sprang into being from a pile of rotting garbage.
The apple doesn’t fall far from the garbage heap.
739 DJ
November 20th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Just nuke Israel. Flatten the place, kill everyone there. This works out for everyone. If the Palestinians are right, they’re all going to Heaven and 70 virgins are awaiting them. If the Israelis are right, they’re all going to Heaven where they’ll be in God’s presence and they can go about their business of feeling guilty all the time. The area will be completely off limits for human habitation for centuries, so no one religion can claim the Holy Land. After a couple millennia, without a good pilgrimmage place, everyone will pick new holy sites. Muslims have been picking new holy sites for hundreds of years. Mormons, unable to reach the Middle East, declared Utah sacred ground. This really does work out for the best.
740 Scratch
November 20th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
@segues
lol. That actually makes a lot more sense and would go a long way to explaining a lot about him.
741 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
@DJ (740): I don’t think Jews believe in a heaven. I also hope you’re being sarcastic.
742 Randall
November 20th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
@Woyzeck Uber Alles (733): Woyzeck, you are one eloquent motherf**ker when it comes to the devastating put-down. I tip my hat to you.
743 Shannon
November 20th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
@Randall (692):
“The very idea that, in the world we’ve known, the world which is clearly established, that people can try to deny the mass murder of millions… whether it be the Holocaust, or the genocide of the Armenians, or the millions killed by the communists…”
That very idea is the reason it’ll never end. There’ll always be idiots like Ava / Brian to line up en masse to follow the Hitlers and Jim Jones of the world. See, people think Hitler was stupid and crazy. I don’t. I think he was one smart individual who manipulated the hell out of a terrible situation and he had plenty of help from “ordinary people”.
Randall, I know you and I got off on a bad foot the other day and I’m sorry, truly sorry. I really do have some issues that require meds and such and I really am working on them and sometimes I’m not is a state to be typing but I type anyway. In any event, I just know that I may not be the sparkliest sequin on the prom dress, but I’m nowhere NEAR as ignorant as Ava / Brian.
744 Titanis
November 20th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Well, these comments are playing out *exactly* how I figured they would.
745 GiantFlyingRobo
November 20th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
@Woyzeck Uber Alles (733):Please don’t scare him away, Woyzeck. I’m trying to toy around with him, you know. It’s really quite fun, you should try it, instead of being all serious and violent. You actually almost made me piss my pants there for a second. “I would end your flabby pussy life, with joy and laughter.” Holy crap, man! No need to get that enraged!
746 gatineau
November 20th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
@Woyzeck Uber Alles (733):
HARDCORE BASH!!
747 Trekkerette
November 20th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
Racism ticks me off, and so does abortion. Abortion, to me, damages people’s self-esteem and at times, their health. Whoever doesn’t feel so bad when they get their kid aborted should go to heck.
748 ILIE
November 20th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
GOIN STRONG
749 Brian
November 21st, 2009 at 3:01 am
Now I agree with Shannon. The Armenian genocide did happen, and millions were killed by the commies. But Hitler? Come on. Why would someone want to kill Jews just for being jews? it`s not normal. and anyway, what if he did? there JEWS for petes sake. look up Jewish persecution, and you`ll see that Hitler was no big deal.
750 ianz09
November 21st, 2009 at 3:20 am
@Brian (750): Jesus Christ, you are a dipshit. Why would anyone kill Armenians just because they are Armenians? It’s called genocide, you fuckup at life, the entire point is killing off a group of people BECAUSE they belong to that group.
Gen-o-cide
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Do you even know what you are typing when you type it? If you are going spew bullshit, at least make an attempt at sounding semi-intelligent. At least then you can say you tried.
The other day, some boys came into the grocery store where I work. These boys are in high school. They talked to one of their teachers that they saw, and after that, they proceeded to steal a bottle of vodka by sticking it down their pants. We caught them on the cameras, asked the teacher what their names were, and called the police. When the cop showed up, a few people in the parking lot waved at him. Do you want to know who it was? The two kids, drunk off their asses. The officer really couldn’t believe what he was seeing, but managed to compose himself long enough to arrest both of them. They were bagged for public intoxication, underage consumption of alcohol, and petty theft. All of this is 100% true. I shared this because at first I was going to say you were as dumb as they were, but that is insulting to underage drunk thieves who waved at their arresting officer.
751 ianz09
November 21st, 2009 at 3:35 am
@Brian (750): Oh, one more won’t hurt. You fail slightly harder than this:
http://www.viddler.com/explore/failblog/videos/344/
752 ava
November 21st, 2009 at 4:59 am
woyzeck….@ava (678):
don’t impersonate me you pathetic little goyum…
type in the link…something to read…but I’m sure none of you will bother…
http://www.historiography-project.com/misc/graf_jewishlosses.html
whine on losers…lol…
753 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 21st, 2009 at 5:50 am
@ava (753):
I read some of that page, then stopped because I realised that I was reading a *HISTORIOGRAPHY* page which doesn’t cite its sources. Who exactly wrote it?
P.S. I didn’t write comment number 678. If you think me pathetic, then why is it you who can think of nothing better to do with your time than troll this site? Or, if you really believe this horseshit, why did your side lose the Second World War?
OUT.
A Woyzeck Joint.
754 tripsyman
November 21st, 2009 at 5:51 am
@jfrater (44):
Any chance of doing something about this brian character jamie – his comments above are way out of control
755 Derek
November 21st, 2009 at 7:32 am
We really need to rename this list to 10 things that will definitely start a flame war.
You missed out PC vs MAC vs LINUX as a bonus.
Oh and this list also invites a flame war too, judging from the comments above.
Many famous people are racist, but no-one cares about them, so why do you care about one troll. You’re feeding the flames PEOPLE!
756 segues
November 21st, 2009 at 11:08 am
@Derek (756): I actually agree with Derek. I’ve been thinking that we should ask you to shut down either Brian (and anything coming coming from his IP) for a long time, or just shut down the whole thing.
It’s gotten to the point where people are becoming seriously depressed by this. Something has to be done.
757 Starr
November 21st, 2009 at 11:42 am
Evolution is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific theory…
758 Oldtimer
November 21st, 2009 at 11:52 am
How did the original list omit the death penalty, another question sure to get the religio-political juices flowing?
759 segues
November 21st, 2009 at 11:53 am
@Starr (758): Where have you been for the last 200 years?
760 Brian
November 21st, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Sorry ianzO9 I got a bit messed up there. And so, yeah, you`re totally right about the Armenian genocide. and if you think about it, IF Hitler did kill millions of jews, which I doubt, what makes that worse than the Armenian genocide? Andthe ASSYRIAN genocide? which was also commited by the Ottoman empire? you never have “Armenian Genocide Day,” or “Assyrian Genocide Day,” do you? If you deny the “Holocaust,” you get called an anti-semite, and even risk being thrown in prison! Yet if someone denies the Armenian genocide, noone gos mad over that do they? it`s just ridiculous.
761 Lamprecht
November 21st, 2009 at 2:04 pm
>>Even in the 21st century some people still
>>believe in the superiority of one race over
>>another, despite the fact that, organically,
>>race is a myth. We have ethnicities, yes, but
>>race is an artificial construct based almost
>>solely on the amount of melanin in a person’s
>>skin and the size and layout of the facial
>>bones and musculature.
Nonsense.
Race is very real and not based on skin color at all and facial morphology is just an indication. Race is a genetic reality, silly Aaron.
Also, your “Holocaust” image is a fake.
762 ianz09
November 21st, 2009 at 2:11 pm
@Brian (761): Look, the Holocaust happened, A. B, you are saying no one cares about other genocides. Do you know just how much flak the Turkish government takes by denying the Armenian genocide? A lot. The majority of countries criticize it. The United States, in a move of political bullshit, doesn’t officially recognize it, because if they did, the Turks would deny us crucial airspace we need to fight our 2 wars. The government recognizes the Holocaust because we beat Germany. They had no pull over us to force our hand, and there were too many witnesses. No one denies the African genocides, either. Why don’t we interfere? 1. It’s a shitstorm, and too many American soldiers are already being killed for things that shouldn’t be their business. 2. We don’t have the money. We are flushing so much down the drain to continue stalemates in Iraq and Afghanistan. 3. We would get criticized. The world bitches when we don’t intervene, and bitches if we do. Damned if we do, damned if we don’t. 4. It isn’t black and white. You here about the rebels executing civilians and raping women, so by default, they are the bad guys. Whoops, the government troops are doing the exact same thing! There is no good and bad, just bad. So either way, we would be assisting evil. Genocide is the black mark on warfare. That is an awkward statement to make, considering war is always churning out evils, but genocide is so shameful that nobody wants to admit it is happening. By denying the Holocaust, you are an anti-Semite. You are a homophobe. You are anti-Catholic, anti-mentally retarded. Anything. They are kept locked away, silenced. Who is going to be their voice? Not them. People outside the situation must be, or else the invisible plague will continue. It is exactly the same as FlameHorse’s Bystander Effect list. Anyone who knows it is happening but refuses to intervene, is guilty to an extent.
And why do we as Westerners make such a big out of the Holocaust? It took place during a war in which we fought, we have grandparents still living who witnessed and experienced such a horror, and it is well documented and presented to us. Is this fair to what is happening in Africa? No, but what is prominent is prominent, and the least we can do is utilize the parallels between the Holocaust and all other genocides so maybe we can do something, for once.
763 Brian
November 21st, 2009 at 2:54 pm
I already knew that about how America don`t admit the killing of Armenians and Assyrians as being a genocide because of Turkey. And how the crazy Turks murder people who admit it was a genocide! talk about being crazy! and saying that we make a big deal over jews being killed because it took place in a war we fought and have grandparents who “witnessed” and “Experienced” a horror and it`s documented and presented to us, is silly. you have victims of other genocides, such as Cambodia, Bosnia and so on, and they don`t go on ranting about it. it`s only jews who go on and on and on.. and it`s beyond a joke. And-”Americans are being killed for things that shouldn`t be their business.” that`s rubbish. remember September 11th? Osama Bin Laden should be hunted down and executed, for what he did.
764 ianz09
November 21st, 2009 at 3:09 pm
What part of my last comment are you having trouble with? Jewish people are much more prominent in Western society than Cambodians and Assyrians. Therefore, we will here more about it. If this is a problem, go to Cambodia. And Jews weren’t the only ones persecuted, and are not the only ones who are making sure the Holocaust isn’t forgotten. It is clear that discrimination clouds your vision. The victims of other genocides don’t go ranting because they either still in the midst of it, or they are being kept silent. Deniers such as yourself do no good in this world. If I was stabbed, beaten, and dragged to a van where I was then taken, and you watched the whole thing happen from a safe location, unbeknownst to my attackers, and you told the police nothing happened, you would be doing the same thing as you are now. And Americans ARE being killed for wars they have no business fighting. Did I cite Afghanistan under that category? Hell no. We are currently in Iraq, and have been to Somalia. Justify those. Vietnam, there’s another one for you. The Holocaust may be over, but people like you make me realize that the persecution continues. Denial should be a crime.
765 GiantFlyingRobo
November 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (724): Seriously, did anyone see the mistake I made? I hope so…
766 Shannon
November 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pm
@Brian (764):
“Osama Bin Laden should be hunted down and executed, for what he did.”
There you go, bitching about 9/11 again. What is it with Americans alway 9/11 this and 9/11 that. Hell, “you have victims of other genocides(terrorist attacks), such as Cambodia(Spain), Bosnia (England) and so on, and they don`t go on ranting about it. it`s only jews (Americans) who go on and on and on (about 9/11).. and it`s beyond a joke.
767 segues
November 21st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (766): If you mean the repeated @Brian, well yeah. Other than that, everything looks fine.
768 segues
November 21st, 2009 at 3:34 pm
@Shannon (767): 9/11 is no joke. I could go into extensive detail why it was not, and is not, a joke, but apparently you know all of the facts already.
You already know how it feels to have your nation attacked violently.
You already know how it feels to lose friends or family members, civilians, just going about their day.
You already know how it feels to have the sense of safety ripped from under you.
You already know all this and so much more, your young men and women fighting and dieing in foreign lands because of it, for 8 years, and yet you laugh at the big joke.
Some sense of humor.
769 Shannon
November 21st, 2009 at 3:47 pm
@segues (769):
Okay, I guess it wasn’t as obvious as I thought. It’s meant to be ironic. If you’ll compare my post to Brian’s #764, you’ll see that I substituted some words into his post to highlight the irony of his outrage at 9/11 while hating the outrage of the Jews at the Holocaust.
Does that make sense?
770 Brian
November 21st, 2009 at 4:03 pm
The reason we`re in Iraq, is because of the lies, that that clown Bush told everyone. weapons of mass destruction.. and because Saddam Hussein had links to al qaeda. which they knew he didn`t. And the Vietnam war? that was because of the ridiculous idea, of “global communism that set out to dominate the world,” crap. and The Gulf of Tonkin stunt.
771 deeeziner
November 21st, 2009 at 4:03 pm
I’m glad I live in the US where I have the right to bear arms, but I much prefer my human ones.
772 GiantFlyingRobo
November 21st, 2009 at 4:18 pm
@segues (768): No, it’s that I made it sound like Martin Luther’s followers were Catholic in my post. I did that to make sure someone would call me out on it. I guess I should’ve made it clearer. The repeated ‘@Brian’ was an actual accident.
773 Oldtimer
November 21st, 2009 at 4:26 pm
“Necessity is the mother of invention,” it is politics which “makes strange bedfellows.”
774 Shannon
November 21st, 2009 at 5:06 pm
@Brian (771):
Well, Duh. Everybody knows the biggest lie ever told is “The Cubs are going to win the Series” and the second biggest lie ever told is “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction”.
As for Vietnam, yes Tonkin was a stunt and a bad one, but the early involvement in ‘Nam is understandable. The world was a much different place then and we in the west didn’t really know how much of a paper tiger the USSR was. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
775 blacksunshine
November 21st, 2009 at 5:06 pm
@deeeziner (772): HAHAHA!!!! That was good!
776 EatWell
November 21st, 2009 at 5:17 pm
From 2 years of online activity I would have to say that ZIONISM is the most discussed subject on any forum, go onto You Tube you would be horrified at the sorts there.
Israel doesnt exist.period.
777 segues
November 21st, 2009 at 5:19 pm
@Shannon (770): Irony is really hard to do without the vocal and facial clues you gain from actual conversation. Otherwise, yes, it makes sense.
@GiantFlyingRobo (773): See answer above. I assumed that was your actual feeling on the subject, it was so much less offensive than anything Brian had said I was just ignoring it.
@Oldtimer (774): Yes, I know both sayings, but they are (to me, at least), much funnier when you malaprop them as I did.
778 GiantFlyingRobo
November 21st, 2009 at 5:20 pm
@ianz09 (765): Dude, why are you arguing with him? We all KNOW Brian’s beyond all logic, common sense, and reason. We all KNOW he’s an insane whackjob. We all KNOW he has no brain. Why bother? Why not just get some kicks out of messing with him before finally putting the comments to rest? IMO, this guy is twice as stupid, twice as racist, and twice as logic-immune as Auroranorth ever was. Which probably should make him twice as more fun to mess with as Auroranorth.
779 Queeny
November 21st, 2009 at 5:23 pm
“The worst part is, again, no middle ground.”
What’s wrong with saying that God created evolution???
780 GiantFlyingRobo
November 21st, 2009 at 5:48 pm
@EatWell (777): Israel doesn’t exist?! Then my all my atlases have been lieing to me! I knew those stupid little turds were wrong!
781 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 7:14 pm
I fully believe the Holocaust happened, but saying people can’t question it is simply ignorant.
I have never traveled the world, therefore I actually have no more reason to believe the holocaust than that the Earth is round.
Face it everyone, everything you know about science, history, etc. Is based on what other people told you.
You have no way of knowing whether or not the American Civil War ever happened. Everything considered evidence of the event, is considered real only because other people told you that it’s real. I wasn’t at the war in the 1860′s, so I technically will never know, and neither will you.
782 Ignatius
November 21st, 2009 at 7:19 pm
JFrater, well, *Jack Webb Shake of the Head* you tried.
We really are not as civilized as we keep claiming.
*sigh*
783 Maggot
November 21st, 2009 at 7:35 pm
@lolpuppies (782): Pull your head out of your ass. Seriously.
784 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 7:43 pm
@784
Really? Explain, I would like to know
785 renegade01
November 21st, 2009 at 7:46 pm
@Brian (750):
….I want to kill you just for being you. Maybe I’ll get lucky afterward and your family will be just as wacky as you, that way I won’t be charged with murder. They won’t believe anyone did it.
786 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Maggot what I wrote in 782 is Philosophy 101 buddy.
Tell me what is wrong with what I said? Explain to me how what you read in a U.S. History book is 100% fact, when history books are different in EVERY COUNTRY.
In Russia, there is no mention of the “Great Purge”, where Stalin executed all political opinion.
In Japan, high school textbooks don’t mention Pearl Harbor, but rather go straight to the United States declaration of war. Also,
http://www.pliink.com/mt/marxy/archives/2007/06/ldp-discovers-t.html
It appears you, sir Maggot, has a head buried in your own ass.
787 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 7:50 pm
786, ignore him. He’s apparently never heard of Mein Kampf, where Hitler explains his hatred of all things Jewish
788 Maggot
November 21st, 2009 at 7:56 pm
@lolpuppies (787): what I wrote in 782 is Philosophy 101 buddy.
I know what it was, dipshit. You’re so edgy. By that logic, your own existence is in question and not provable. Whatever.
789 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 8:04 pm
#10) Iran had a very good deal sent to them by other countries, where they would export their Uranium and have it returned to them later. They’re clearly up to something. Or maybe they want to be recognized as being in control of themselves?
#9) There are much worse things out their than homosexuality. Let them live in peace. However, I refuse to give up my right to use gay slurs. I’m 21 years old, it’s part of my nature.
#8) I believe he existed. Many who think he was a pagan thingy. You guys are retarded for listening to the Zeitgeist video, the most flawed, stupid thing I’ve ever seen in my life.
#7) Why can’t we all just get along?
#6) Clear form of murder. Some people say “my body, my choice”. I bet the baby/human in question here would like the same option..
#5) Good luck, we can hardly keep drugs flowing through the borders, try keeping people from smuggling weapons, which only become so much more powerful through scarcity.
#4) It seems you can question God, someone’s gender and everything else, but God forbid you question the holocaust. The ‘Revisionists’ have terrible comebacks, and shoddy evidence. However at the same time, the evidence towards aspects of the holocaust seem to ridiculous. I’m 80% that it happened.
#3) I have NO political affiliation, or affinity towards any group. People even try to get me to discuss politics. Unbelievable how vicious people get with it. I don’t give two s**ts about your polical beliefs, but saying that only seems to make them think “he must support the other side”.
#2) I wasn’t there, and neither were any of you. Everything you know, evidence and all else, you only know mainly because of internet readings from websites. Let the scientists do the work, and leave the topic alone.
#1) I have no idea which religion is correct, but I respect them all. I don’t care what kinds of claims they make, No one knows what happens when you die, therefore according to Descartes, anything you can think of, could be.
Have at me, you over-opinionated basement dwellers
#4)
790 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 8:05 pm
789
Maggot you’re the dipshit.
I could give you a lesson on Descartes explaining how I know I exist, right now, but I don’t think your feeble mind could comprehend it.
791 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Also Maggot, why don’t you explain how I have my head up my ass?
Please enlighten everyone who can read this. I’ll restate what I said earlier in simpler terms.
Everything you know about history, science, etc. is the result of something someone else wrote in a book. You have no way of knowing if it was true or not. All history books are, are final copies of Wikipedia articles.
Now are you going to counter my point? Or are you just going to call me another name and go back to wackin’ it to a comparative politics book?
792 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 8:16 pm
In my 11th grade world history class, I did an article on operation market garden. I first asked how many in the room had known about the event. six of them (that startled me that so few had heard of it) raised their hands, and I told them it was important for them not to say anything at the end of the speech. I told the other 26 to take some notes, because I’m going to hand out candy to those that can answer questions correctly.
In the speech, I read off the historical explanation of the operation, but altered the date, the scale of the operation, the result, and casualties.
At the end, I asked several people to tell me what day the invasion took place.
They told me September 15th, 1944
“Where?”
Eastern France.
I gave out the candy as promised, then continued to explain the correct history of the operation.
I closed by explaining that everyone should question history, because everything you know is based on what someone else told you.
793 segues
November 21st, 2009 at 9:11 pm
I knew lolpuppies had to be an adolescent. No one with any real life experience could be quite that arrogant and stupid.
794 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 9:15 pm
…Except that I’m not in high school, that was a story explaining myself.
Explain how I’m arrogant and stupid, and I won’t make fun of your picture.
the problem is that everything I’ve said is technically true.
pff, women..
795 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Also,
for #535. Your morality is your own opinion, therefore highly retarded.
for #769- Actually he has an excellent point, even though he’s clearly doing a parody. 9/11 isn’t a joke, and was a terrible thing. However, you’re retarded. Worse things have happened than 9/11. We as Americans seem to see the suffering of people in other countries as statistics, whereby a single missing girl in Florida can dominate the headlines for months (see Casey Anthony). Which touches on race relations. Someone is murdered more than daily in Chicago, but these murders are never covered nationally, even if it was a 5 year old girl. Of course, the girl in Chicago was black.
796 Maggot
November 21st, 2009 at 9:26 pm
@lolpuppies (793): I closed by explaining that everyone should question history, because everything you know is based on what someone else told you.
Of course there’s nothing wrong with questioning what someone tells you. Thing is, in your example, you were one person, telling the lie. “Someone else” is not the same as “recorded history”. Recorded history is different in that there are multiple, independent sources, evidence to back it up, and no real credible contradictions. Yes I get that some governments do try to alter or suppress records and historical accounts of things they deem unfavorable, and that “history is written by the victors” and all that. But generally speaking, I’m talking about recorded history in the free world, where outright lies simply do not hold up to the scrutiny of others. It’s the reason why “peer review” is so important in science research, for example. Yes, continued research could turn up new evidence and the historical record (or scientific conclusions) could change. YOU on the other hand, say the only evidence you’ll believe about the past is what you see with your own eyes, in real time. Since this is impossible, you will never be satisfied. That IMO is akin to having your head up your ass, because such denials and the ignoring of other resources serves no purpose. You’re doing a disservice to yourself.
797 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 9:27 pm
For these reasons, I plead to you Segues, to continue to prefer arguing over the internet, and place it above ever reproducing.
Help the world and end the plague that is stupid, by having you be the last of your species. And the sooner, the better.
Which reminds me, please don’t marry Maggot either. The two of you could take us back to the stone age..
798 Bella
November 21st, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Okay so I probably should be joining in this flame war, but i’m a tad bit tired,so i’ll see you kids tomorrow?
799 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Well, 797.
I understand what you mean, but my Japan/USSR example shows that a government is able to control certain aspects of history.
How do you know that we’re as free as we believe? Did you hear about the recent emails hacked from the accounts of scientists recently? They discuss covering up global climate change research results.
I know I was one person, but collusion can exist in certain levels, eye witnesses change stories over time (mainly due to memories fading, what they concentrated on “See the dancing gorilla test).
I don’t remember the name of the operation, but in the Cuban Missile Crisis era, there was a government plan to bomb one of our own cities, and blame it on I think Cuba so that we could invade the island. This plan came very close to approval, and had it happened, our history books to this day would say that we were attacked by Cuba.
Sounds awfully like Pearl Harbor to me..
Disclaimer: I DEFINATELY believe Pearl Harbor happened, but the same rules do apply to the event
800 Caroline
November 21st, 2009 at 9:40 pm
I don’t think the Holocaust is so very controversial. There are only a handful of nutcases who want to argue about whether it happened, and I’ve personally never run into any of them in an actual online discussion…
801 lolpuppies
November 21st, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Having a life sucks for retarded, cyclical internet debates.
However I’m gonna go to a party with some friends, then the bars, so you won’t hear from me for the rest of the night.
Segues, feel free to pretend to get the last word on me. Not that your opinion matters anyways, but you will feel better about yourself.
And Maggot, I don’t really feel like we should be arguing over literally nothing. I mean, think about my first post long enough, and after a week or so, I’m sure you’ll understand it’s scale. If not, the Xbox360 is in the basement, feel free to go pwn some n00bz in MW2. It’s certainly not my creation, so I don’t take credit for it. Take it up with every philosopher that ever existed, that would be much more effective.
802 Titanium Black
November 21st, 2009 at 10:36 pm
BAHAHAHAHA … oh my dear ,dear humans… oh brothers and sisters, please tell me what you hope to acheive with your constant prattle…this seems to be the human condition. to argue. to “express” one’s opinion. oh but nothing will ever be solved. oh woe to humankind, ravenous maggots feasting upon one and other in a futile attempt to be the one on top.humans will never understand truth, when they can never understand false. Human perception is so flawed. So let us continue this endless battle. Prehaps we will acheive something.BAHAHAHAHA
803 ava
November 21st, 2009 at 11:20 pm
@lolpuppies (782):
these people have had bullshit kicked up their arse and drummed into their heads for so long…they have become concrete thinkers….
I didn’t deny the holocaust, only questioned the number killed…but all I got was group heckling, threats of violence and name calling…these people are so indoctrinated that you would be hard pressed to find 2 brain cells to rub together to create a spark of original thought in this lot…
but as you said…it is simply ignorant to deny ones right to question…and ignorant they certainly and sadly are…
804 GiantFlyingRobo
November 21st, 2009 at 11:51 pm
@lolpuppies-Dude, I really want to hate you, I really do. You’re so arrogant and you’re such a douchebag. But I just can’t hate you. Why? Because your name’s ‘lolpuppies’! I mean, everyone loves puppies! How can anyone hate someone called ‘lolpuppies’?! Easy. They can’t!
805 renegade01
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:45 am
@ava (804):
Bahahaha, that’s just silly. I mean really. You honestly don’t know a single person here, nor will you ever. You act like some high and mighty genius and claim your way of thought is so much better than ours and our thinking processes are completely wrong. However at the same time you accuse us of doing the same thing and behaving the same way? Going even further you call us ignorant for it! You’re doing the EXACT same thing from a different perspective. You’re being just as closed minded to what we’re saying as we are to what you’re saying. I’m sure in response you’re going to SAY you’re not, however in reality your responses to previous comments say otherwise.
806 Scratch
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:23 am
And Ava,
You posted an article (full of self-citations and citations from other Holocaust deniers) that claimed that only 300,000 Jews died in the Holocaust. That’s not examining the numbers, that’s not revisionism, that’s a bloodclaat lie.
I think it’s great when laymen examine history, some of them are very good at it. In this case, Ava Braun, you should just let the experts handle it – people who aren’t twisted by one of the most destructive, racist, and violent ideologies ever created.
807 Scratch
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:29 am
and lolpuppies, I’m so glad that you enjoyed philosophy 101 so much.
But really, take a philosophy of history course and then come back, ok son?
808 Lamprecht
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:43 pm
@Scratch (807)
I would like to know how Holocaust revisionism is “one of the most destructive, racist, and violent ideologies ever created”
How is it an ideology?
How is the belief that the Holocaust is exaggerated destructive, racist, and violent?
809 Scratch
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Nazism is the ideology, moron. And Neo-Nazism is what motivates Holocaust deniers.
And don’t call it revisionism, it’s denial.
Those who deny the Holocaust (as in, those who reduce the number of Jews deliberately killed by the Nazi ideology by millions) are mostly motivated by a desire to sanitize Nazism of it’s greatest ugliness: the deliberate murder of millions of Jews.
Whenever great numbers are killed, there are those who deny it. There were already voices denying the Rwandan genocide after it occurred. Why? Because they hated Tutsis and wanted to sanitize Hutu extremism from it’s crimes.
It’s tragic.
810 Lamprecht
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
@Scratch (810):
You said:
>>Nazism is the ideology, moron.
>>And Neo-Nazism is what motivates Holocaust deniers.
All “Deniers” are Nazis?
Because one thinks that the Holocaust is exaggerated instantly makes one a neo-Nazi?
What does your researched opinion on history have to do with your political or ideological beliefs?
>>Those who deny the Holocaust (as in, those who
>>reduce the number of Jews deliberately killed
>>by the Nazi ideology by millions) are mostly
>>motivated by a desire to sanitize Nazism of
>>it’s greatest ugliness: the deliberate murder
>>of millions of Jews.
Why do you consider revision “Denial”?
Why do YOU deny the Holocaust, Scratch?
It was once claimed that 20 million Jews perished in the Holocaust.
Why do you deny it, racist? Why do you hate Jews? Why do you want to kill Jews?
It was “Proven” at Nuremberg that 4 million Jews died at Auschwitz – do you belive this? No?
Racist, anti-Semite! You disgust me with your violent, destructive beliefs!
>>Whenever great numbers are killed, there are
>>those who deny it. There were already voices
>>denying the Rwandan genocide after it occurred.
>>Why? Because they hated Tutsis and wanted to
>>sanitize Hutu extremism from it’s crimes.
Do you expect me to take your word for it?
Scratch, I suggest you go to:
http://forum.codoh.com
and prove that 6 million — err, 20 million (Don’t want to be denying the Holocaust) — Jews died in the Holocaust.
You can also prove that they are racist, violent Nazis that want to kill the Jews of the world.
811 Sanitary Fries
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Lol this list owned everyone.
812 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:23 pm
@ava (804):
Ava, you are as much a “concrete thinker” as you accuse us of being. You’re talking about “original thought” – did it ever occur to you that it is possible to think independently without reaching the conclusion that the Holocaust is the biggest, nuttiest conspiracy of all time?
But maybe you’re too busy straining to be ‘original’ to tell the evidence from the right-wing droolings.
813 Bella
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:24 pm
@Titanium Black(803): Oh dear, you have quite a bad opinion about humans, don’t you?
814 Woyzeck Uber Alles
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:25 pm
@Lamprecht (811):
“It was once claimed that 20 million Jews perished in the Holocaust.”
Could you cite your source for that claim, please?
815 Scratch
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Lamprecht,
Holocaust deniers are largely motivated by a desire to sanitize Nazism from the Holocaust. True, there are some who are merely motivated by a desire to be contrarian, but most deniers are motivated by their love of Nazism.
Those who deny the Holocaust already have sympathy towards Nazism, and merely look for evidence to validate their sympathy. This is not how history is done. Sorry.
Holocaust deniers have taken up the mantle of revisionism, but they aren’t revisionists – they have their conclusion before they even look at the evidence. And in the face of damning evidence, Holocaust deniers create elaborate lies and obfuscations.
Real historians do examine the numbers who died in the Holocaust – in order to get a Ph.D and become a professional historian, an historian must look at original documents and re-examine and reinterpret historical events. Historians don’t revise for revision’s sake, the way idiots like Faurisson do, but upon finding new evidence. They refine what has already been proven to have happened.
Holocaust deniers, on the other hand, deny that approximately six million Jews were killed, that gas chambers were used, and that this was intentionally done by the Nazis in order to systematically exterminate the Jews.
Holocaust deniers rewrite the past for their own political purposes – a desire to expunge Nazism of its crimes.
“If we had at the beginning of, and during the war, subjected 12 or 15,000 of these Hebrew corrupters of the people to poison gas, as hundreds of thousands of our best German workers from all strata and occupations had to endure, then millions of victims of the Front would not have been in vain.”
Mein Kampf
816 Revision Fries
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:36 pm
racial supremacy is a bastard ideology, racial differences is a fact. The differences don’t prove one race greater than another. Although there are black supremists, and white supremists, even latino supremists, these cults should dissolve.
817 Scratch
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
oh, and I don’t have the time to try to prove anything to a forum full of conspiracy nuts.
818 sara
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Wow. Everyone has too much time on their hands. I would comment about something but.. im not about to read 818 comments. I stopped at 4
819 Lamprecht
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:45 pm
@Woyzeck Uber Alles (815):
I might’ve made a mistake – rechecking I see a 20million claim for the TOTAL deaths – and a 10 million claim for Jews.
Not only that, claims for Auschwitz alone have reached nine(Henri Michel), eight(French War Crime Research Office), seven(Raphaël Feigelson), and six million(Tibère Kremer).
820 Lamprecht
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:11 pm
@Scratch (816):
>>Holocaust deniers are largely motivated by a
>>desire to sanitize Nazism from the Holocaust.
>>True, there are some who are merely motivated
>>by a desire to be contrarian, but most deniers
>>are motivated by their love of Nazism.
I would like proof that MOST are. I can think of very few.
You are fully aware I can claim that people believe in the Holocaust because of a hatred of Germans.
I really don’t see any reason to believe more than a diminutive minority of holocaust scholars hate Jews.
>>Those who deny the Holocaust already have
>>sympathy towards Nazism, and merely look
>>for evidence to validate their sympathy.
>>This is not how history is done. Sorry.
Are you changing your claim from “Most” to “all” now?
What about Josef G. Burg, Roger-Guy Dommergue, David Cole, Stephen Hayward?
They are all Jews who “Deny the Holocaust”
Paul Rassinier suffered from the Nazi regime and went to the concentration camps – as did Burg noted above.
Rassinier himself is a socialist anti-Nazi French Resistance fighter.
Roger Garaudy is a “Denier” and is a communist.
Nazism is a far right ideology and Pierre Guillaume and Serge Thion are both leftists; Andrew Allen, David Cole(A Jew noted above), Bradley Smith(Founder of CODOH), Richard Widmann are all liberals.
The only National Socialist “Denier” I know of is the few Nazis in the trials that denied the figures and Zuendel.
I feel that your silly belief is not only wrong, but childish and impertinent. So what if someone loves Nazis and hates Jews – that doesn’t make them wrong at all.
I disagree with racism and xenophobia but that doesn’t mean I will disagree with a bigot’s views on history just because his views on race oppose mine.
>>Holocaust deniers have taken up the mantle of
>>revisionism, but they aren’t revisionists –
>>hey have their conclusion before they even
>>look at the evidence. And in the face of
>>damning evidence, Holocaust deniers create
>>elaborate lies and obfuscations.
Can you give an example of the “elaborate lies and obfuscations” revisionists give.
Can you give an example of the “Damning evidence” too?
Post it here:
http://forum.codoh.com
if you’re not a coward
>>Real historians do examine the numbers who
>>died in the Holocaust – in order to get a Ph.D
>>and become a professional historian, an historian
>>must look at original documents and re-examine
>>and reinterpret historical events. Historians
>>don’t revise for revision’s sake, the way idiots
>>like Faurisson do, but upon finding new evidence.
>>They refine what has already been proven to have happened.
There are plenty of “Deniers” that have PhD’s.
Staeglich, Countess, Hayward, Tiedmann, Rudolf, Butz, and many more.
Holocaust revisionists are revisionists. They know that Jews were mistreated and thrown into camps during WWII. They know Jews were heavily persecuted. They know the Nazi regime targeted them.
But after confirming they were put in camps and thousands and thousands died, they ask “Why?” and “from what?”
Revisionists look at documents and forensic evidence – sadly sometimes it’s ILLEGAL to search for forensic evidence.
>>Holocaust deniers rewrite the past for their own
>>political purposes – a desire to expunge Nazism
>>of its crimes.
Prove it.
>>“If we had at the beginning of, and during the war,
>>subjected 12 or 15,000 of these Hebrew corrupters
>>of the people to poison gas, as hundreds of thousands
>>of our best German workers from all strata and
>>occupations had to endure, then millions of victims
>>of the Front would not have been in vain.”’
>>Mein Kampf
So what? It is not alleged that the extermination was planned until partially into the war – are you going to deny that too?
The passage is not strictly genocidal – Hitler speculates that if 12-15 thousand “Hebrew corrupters of the people” were gassed, Germany might have won WWI.
Nowhere does this claim Jews were to be gassed in WWII.
Nowhere does it name one Jew, with proof, that was killed in a Nazi gas chamber.
At the time of the quote, the Nazis were focused on denouncing Jews, not explaining what they would do to them – and when they did explain what they were going to do to them it was exportation. In
Silesian Breslaw, June 1932, a centerpiece for a large anti-Jewish rally said for the Jews to “Get ready for Palestine!”
A boycott against Jews in April 1933, pickets handed out “One-way ticket to Palestine” imitations to Jews.
821 Lamprecht
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:41 pm
The photo presented for the Holocaust
is a fake, not meaning “Fabrication” as in someone drew it, but it isn’t what is implied.
What is implied is that the photo is of a Nazi soldier, aiming his rifle at an innocent woman and her child, probably Jewish, about to heartlessly shoot them.
This is nonsense – the uncropped version of the photo, conviently ignored, shows different:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1997/daspiktur4bnmed.jpg
Look at the woman – the back-right side of her face isn’t shadowed like the other two. The crouching man and his bundle cast a correct shadow – the woman and the soldier cast none.
There’s a bright line denoting the bottom edge of her sleeve – but the dress is dark and in a shadow – well it would be if the photo had correct lighting – looks partially doctored.
The woman’s right heel projects back too far.
The rifle doesn’t even look like it’s pointed at the woman. There’s no proof that this is a photo of a man trying to kill this woman and her child.
Take a piece of paper and lay it along the barrel – it barely touches the top of her head.
There is much more contrast on the right portion – the shadows are very dark, actually black – on the left they are a dark gray.
The woman’s head is much larger than the soldier’s, even though she’s closer to the camera it’s too large.
The woman and her child was added to the photo – the soldier may or may not have been – regardless he isn’t shooting her at all.
822 Shannon
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:19 pm
@Lamprecht (822):
You are a sad little neo-Nazi.
You have cited a crackpot web forum. Please allow me to cite this: http://www.hdot.org/en/
This site is hosted by Emory University in Atlanta, GA, which is one of the top research and educational facilities in the United States. It includes the entire transcript of the Irving v. Lipstadt trial from 1996 where “historian” David Irving was shown to be a neo-Nazi and Hitler apologist. It also includes all the documentation from FIELD FORENSICS conducted by experts in chemistry, history, and political science.
When your little conspiracy theorists get tired of wearing their tinfoil hats, maybe you and they could wander over and view some real research?
I doubt it, but at least I tried. Oh, and before you reply just know, my grandfather spent three years fighting the Nazis. One of his brothers is buried atop the cliffs at Normandy. I hate Nazis with all my heart and if I had the funds for travel and could figure a way to back trace your IPs, I would gladly hunt you and all your little Holocaust denying neo-Nazi swastika waving friends down and stuff you in a van with the exhaust routed into it so you could die like the people you deny existed did.
823 Lamprecht
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:00 pm
@Shannon (823):
>>You are a sad little neo-Nazi.
What an accusation and assumption!
You don’t even know me! You don’t know ANYTHING about my political or ideological beliefs – yet you are here spouting your ignorance.
Laughable, yet typical.
>>You have cited a crackpot web forum. Please allow me to cite
>>this: http://www.hdot.org/en/
>>This site is hosted by Emory University in Atlanta, GA, which
>>is one of the top research and educational facilities in the
>>United States. It includes the entire transcript of the Irving
>>v. Lipstadt trial from 1996 where “historian” David Irving was
>>shown to be a neo-Nazi and Hitler apologist. It also includes
>>all the documentation from FIELD FORENSICS conducted by experts
>>in chemistry, history, and political science.
Why do I care about Irving or his personal beliefs? David Irving isn’t even a revisionist. He knows very little about the Holocaust, compared to other revisionist scholars at least, and hasn’t written one book on the Holocaust.
He was shown to be a neo-Nazi? Really, show me this.
Do you know what a neo-Nazi is, Shannon? Or do you just throw it out as if it means someone is wrong?
>>When your little conspiracy theorists get tired of wearing their
>>tinfoil hats, maybe you and they could wander over and view some
>>real research?
What is “Real research” Shannon? How much “Real research” have you done?
What is so real about your research and so fake about mine? Oh, silly me, mine is from “Neo-Nazis” therefore it must be wrong.
Good one Shannon!
>>I doubt it, but at least I tried. Oh, and before you reply just
>>know, my grandfather spent three years fighting the Nazis. One
>>of his brothers is buried atop the cliffs at Normandy. I hate
>>Nazis with all my heart and if I had the funds for travel and
>>could figure a way to back trace your IPs, I would gladly hunt
>>you and all your little Holocaust denying neo-Nazi swastika waving
>>friends down and stuff you in a van with the exhaust routed into it
>>so you could die like the people you deny existed did.
So full of hate Shannon, why do you hate people you have never met?
I don’t hate you. I don’t hate anyone. I don’t “Deny” anything – yet you want me to die.
I don’t claim people didn’t exist, I just think that what some claim is exaggerated – the funny thing is that YOU DO TOO.
Why do you deny the Holocaust, Shannon? It was “Proven” at Nuremberg that 4 million died at Auschwitz, and other’s have said up to 9 million.
Why do you believe the Holocaust didn’t happen, Shannon? Why do you hate Jews?
Typically, honest, open-minded people tend to ignore such prejudices and try to be as unbaised as possible – but you seem to be strongly biased against Nazis – even if I sit here and prove that the Holocaust didn’t happen (I believe it did, obviously, this is just hypothetical) you would continue to believe it.
You’re more brainwashed than you claim I am!
You’re not alone, Shannon – many have lost family in the war, including me. It was the largest war in mankind – I lost one family member in the Pacific and one in Europe, most likely killed by Nazis.
This has absolutely nothing to do with my outlook on history, however, and I see it just as a regrettable moment in my family history.
Revisionism or “Denial” is not Nazi whitewashing at all, it isn’t “Racism” or “neo-Nazism” – please support the claim if you continue to spew it.
824 Shannon
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:47 pm
@Lamprecht (824):
“why do you hate people you have never met?”
No reason really. I just make a hobby out of hating wet-behind the ears bored uni students who think they took a Phil 101 class and read a little Nietzsche and now they are experts on the human condition.
“He was shown to be a neo-Nazi? Really, show me this.”
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/judgement
It’s 348 pages long and uses big words so I doubt you can get through it between pizza slices, handjobs, and Grey’s Anatomy reruns.
Oh, yes, if you’ll give me your uni philosophy professor’s email, I’ll email the tweed wearing ponytail sporting communist hippie holdover jackass a transcript of your “enlightening” comments so you can get your extra credit.
Now, don’t you have a pep rally or something you need to go to and leave the site to the grownups? Thanks now
Buh Bye
825 Lamprecht
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:30 pm
@Shannon (825):
>>No reason really. I just make a hobby out of hating wet-behind the ears bored
>>uni students who think they took a Phil 101 class and read a little Nietzsche
>>and now they are experts on the human condition.
Do I apply to this?
>>http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/judgement
>>It’s 348 pages long and uses big words so I doubt you can get through it between
>>pizza slices, handjobs, and Grey’s Anatomy reruns.
You didn’t answer my question.
Show me one portion of this website that shows he is a “Neo-Nazi” if you even know what that means.
Not only that, I wonder why one person, who isn’t even much of a revisionist or “Denier” as you call it, is an example of the whole group.
If you didn’t know, Irving is essentially meaningless to the revisionist movement. He has offered very little compared to many other revisionists.
>>Oh, yes, if you’ll give me your uni philosophy professor’s email, I’ll email
>>the tweed wearing ponytail sporting communist hippie holdover jackass a
>>transcript of your “enlightening” comments so you can get your extra credit.
You quote “enlightining” as if I used these words.
You assume so much about me, Shannon, you’re really quite dull.
You insult me and others so much you give the impression that you’re a child, so confused and so simple minded.
You are bigoted against any differing belief, Shannon. If someone disagrees with you – ignore their arguments. Of course they’re wrong, they disagreed with YOU.
826 Randall
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 am
@Lamprecht (826):
I have stayed out of this argument for reasons I gave much earlier; that I am deeply tired of confronting liars, bigots, and the certifiably insane over their various bizarre beliefs. For one thing it simply becomes tedious over and over again. For another, they never listen, never respond to questions or logic, and simply go on trumpeting their bullshit. I have little doubt that you will be no different Lamprecht. Nevertheless, I can’t stand listening to your smug BS any longer.
Yes, asshole, you are, quite simply, a Holocaust denier. You and the TINY cadre of academics whom you cite. You AND they are anti-semites AND, yes, neo-Nazis… or at the very least sympathetic to fascism.
*I* am an historian. I have worked with many colleagues who specialized in or had expert knowledge related to the Holocaust. The evidence for the facts of what happened is in ABUNDANCE. It consists of not only eyewitness testimony but a clear trail of documentation, as well as the documented testimony of SS officers and functionaries of the Nazi German government who described the logistics and the PURPOSE of not only the various camps but also the mobile death squads that were geared SPECIFICALLY to the SYSTEMATIC murder of various “undesirables” but most especially of the Jews. There is no “debate” about this, and no “discussion” about it amongst ANY qualified, accredited scholars. The evidence is MOUNTAINOUS.
What there IS and has been for some time is a small extremist faction of anti-semitic individuals–some of them academics, some not, few of them historians (Arthur Butz is an Engineering professor, Faurisson a literature prof) and NONE respected by the the scholarly profession as a whole. All are outcast and shunned in academic quarters. ALL share in common the same shallow and transparent goal of trying to make Holocaust denial look “scholarly and sophisticated” by reframing it as a species of revisionism based on what they absurdly attempt to pass off as better critical thinking on the subject… when in fact they, like all conspiracy theorists, creationists, and others with hidden or not-so-hidden agendas, are simply attempting to broaden support for their disgusting, sick, and offensive views—which in the case of Holocaust deniers are racist and anti-semitic. Putting on airs of “respectable scholarship” is one of their tools—and you have employed the same here. But the use of scholarly vocabulary and the attempt to force an appearance of scholarship CANNOT hide the fact for a moment that they–and you–are nothing more than neo-fascists and racists.
As the generations who witnessed the Holocaust are dying out, and former Communist countries in Eastern Europe have opened up to the West, this disgusting seed of yours has grown–slightly. Historical revisionism was no stranger to these former Communist countries, and anti-semitism has been a common theme, used and encouraged from time to time by totalitarian governments in a similar–though of course far less graphic and widespread way–in which the Nazis used it.
MANY well-known Holocaust “revisionists” have been PROVEN to have close links with neo-Nazi organizations–and the fact is that EVERY time Holocaust deniers have tried to bring their case to legal courts–they have LOST. EVERY time.
You will NOT get away with trying to characterize ME as “confused and simple minded” you son of a bitch. Your views are the most evil and revolting sort of underhanded deception that exists in our world, and I will not stand for you having a free reign to go on here posting your lies and distortions as though you have ANY kind of legitimacy or scholarship to support them. YOU HAVE NONE.
DON’T give us ANY more of this bullshit about how “none of us” can know your political beliefs or stances. YOUR WORDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. They are couched in the same kind of “oh so reasonable” questions and soft jabs to the historical mainstream that all revisionists use–in an attempt to hide the true agenda—which is to excuse–even in the periphery–Nazi crimes as “no crimes at all,” or at worst “not systematized,” but rather the “natural occurrences of war,” and “exaggerated.”
I have personally spoken to men who liberated camps. I have seen the evidence for the Holocaust, vast in quantity. I have read the testimony not only of Allied soldiers who saw the camps firsthand, but of former inmates AND of SS officers who manned and oversaw the camps. I have seen documentation CLEARLY indicating the VERY systematic and well-planned and premeditated slaughter of the Jews, captured after the war. My father and five of my uncles fought in that war to erase the kind of disgusting perversion you are speaking up for, masquerading as “reasonable query.”
Your tactics are tired and old, exactly the same ones used by extremist conspiracy theorists and others who try to push deceptive notions in order to further a hidden agenda.
THERE IS NO DEBATE about the Holocaust. It happened, and it happened as the MAINSTREAM of historical scholarship has described it–EVER SINCE THE EVIDENCE was uncovered DIRECTLY following the cessation of hostilities in Europe–and even before. There is no debate because the evidence is and always has been CLEAR and unarguable.
The ONLY way ANY so-called “revisionist” has built a case to the contrary is by obfuscation, distortion, and downright contradiction of the facts WITHOUT any real scientific or scholarly support.
I have spoken on this site many times against all manner of vapid nonsense, idiocy, distortion of truth and fact, and the like. This is the most odious I’ve ever had to address, and it nearly makes me sick that I have to do so.
The fortunate thing is, Lamprecht, that no one EXCEPT anti-semites is listening to you. Revisionism will NEVER gain ANY ground in respected academic circles because it has NO evidence to counter the voluminous evidence for the event that it tries to revise. You are a voice in a tiny minority—and if I and my colleagues have anything to do with it—and we will—you and your kind will stay that way.
827 ava
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:13 am
What the fuck can’t you retards get…
Nothing is set in stone…anything and everything can be questioned….and should be…
Questioning certain things about the Holocaust and denying the Holocaust are two very different things…you people are so stupid you can’t even comprehend that nuance…
What you morons are doing is not even allowing us to question anything about the holocaust…
You are fascists…dictators…despots…idiots…
If you think certain things are not up for debate…your not a student of anything except stupidity…and that is blatantly and irritatingly fucking obvious…
QUESTION….
828 tallulahleigh
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:18 am
Cool list:)
829 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:07 am
@Randall (827):
Thank you, Randall.
830 Randall
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:27 am
@ava (828):
“What the fuck can’t you retards get…”
There are no “retards” here. There are only people who know the truth, and accept it as such… and those very, very few–such as yourself–who either know the truth and REFUSE to accept it, and thus deny it–or are so delusional and/or consumed with anti-semitism that they are psychologically incapable of acknowledging the truth.
“Nothing is set in stone…anything and everything can be questioned….and should be…”
WRONG. Some things ARE set in stone. Some elements of history HAPPENED and no amount of racist “revisionism” is going to make then UNhappen. MUCH, yes, should be questioned… but when the questioning masks motivations of a dishonest and sinister nature, then that is not proper inquiry, nor is it proper skepticism, nor is it proper scholarship. RATHER, it is then a kind of propaganda that is attempting to overturn the accepted paradigm of truth so that the Lie can begin to gain acceptance again.
“Questioning certain things about the Holocaust and denying the Holocaust are two very different things…”
In fact they are not. They are very much the same thing. THERE IS NO SUPPORTABLE OR LOGICAL REASON TO QUESTION THE HOLOCAUST. There is no valid academic reason for doing so. There is no evidence to support such a questioning that in ANY way can stand up to the MOUNTAIN of evidence which supports and proves the actual fact of the Holocaust as it happened.
To QUESTION a thing that is so clearly proven, documented, and witnessed by an entire generation of human beings is NOTHING more than an obvious attempt to further an AGENDA. And that agenda is NOT the truth nor is it concerned in any way with getting AT the truth. It is, rather, quite simply an agenda whose goal is to wipe from the memory of mankind the actual facts of the Holocaust so that the political/philosophical madness that brought it about can gain some measure of respect and potentially rise again.
“…you people are so stupid you can’t even comprehend that nuance…”
There is no stupidity here, “ava.” And there is NO “nuance” between the two. No distinction.
What there IS here, and out there in the world, is vigilance against your kind of lying attempts to alter history and wipe from the collective consciousness the actual crimes perpetrated under the Nazis. To expunge or at least excuse them, to explain them away.
But there is a VAST segment of the global population that will NEVER let you get away with this. The academic mainstream will NEVER let you get away with it.
“What you morons are doing is not even allowing us to question anything about the holocaust…”
That’s right. Because there is no reason to. There is not ONE SHRED of actual evidence that lends ANY credence to your belief that it should be questioned. While there is in fact EVERY degree of evidence indicating that it happened EXACTLY as it has been shown to have happened. The evidence is clear, voluminous and inviolable.
Anyone with an axe to grind can lay claim to “valid questioning” of the facts–but that in itself does not make them right and those who defend the accepted intepretation of those facts to be wrong. Merely questioning something does not give to anyone the mantle of righteousness. If you attempt to question the notion of gravity, trying to prove to us that it is “exaggerated” and doesn’t happen as science has said it happens, then you are a fool who is doing nothing but wasting your time and ours. You could have scant evidence–if any at all–to support your wild, off-the-wall contentions. And so we would be entirely justified in dispensing with you and ignoring you, and we would not be in the wrong in doing so.
Of course, trying to call gravity into question would hurt few besides yourself–and those who listen to you, who might feel free to jump off of buildings or the like, in expectation of the defeat of this basic force of nature.
Questioning the Holocaust, however, under similar circumstances, can ONLY be motivated by a desire so perpetuate and spread a propagandistic version of reality which would have the effect of doing great harm to the truth and history as we know it—in short, of negating the facts and replacing them with an ideological version of reality as we now know it. This is completely unacceptable, and WRONG.
“You are fascists…dictators…despots…idiots…”
Hardly. We simply have our eyes open, and see you for what you are.
831 kingoflondon
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:36 am
My grandfather, a Polish Jew, and was detained in Auschwitz during the war. He was liberated, and was sent to the UK following the end of the war where he met my grandmother. My grandfather died shortly before my birth, but apparently he would not talk much about what happened during the war. What we did know was that he had five brothers, two sister and two parents – all of whom died during the war. A few years ago my father researched what happened to my grandfather in the war – we were put in touch with all kinds of different research houses with access to all kinds of documentation relating to where he came from in Poland, being sent to the ghetto, Auschwitz etc. It’s not as if this information is not available or in dispute.
As part of the research my father did on what happened to his father, he spoke at length with a man who was with him during the war, and also managed to live through it. He recorded this conversation, and after it had been typed up, one thing led to another, and it was made into a play which featured on the radio.
Growing up in the UK, I never really came across much in the way of anti-Semitism. The odd stupid comment here and there, but nothing serious. Most people wouldn’t know that I am Jewish anyway, I am in no way religious, and do not act or think differently to anyone else that isn’t Jewish. It just isn’t something I’d ever really come across – until that is, I searched the internet to see any information about my father’s forthcoming radio play, and came across one of the many neo-Nazi (or whatever you want to call it) forums populated by the likes of this Brian character.
Their arguments and comments on my father’s work (which they had not heard as it had not been aired yet) were just ridiculous and personally offensive. I could not resist confronting them, and wrote an email to the website. This was printed on the website in question, where it was ridiculed using various Jewish words which I was completely unfamiliar with to describe the ways in which I was supposedly thinking and trying to trick people. It left me feeling pretty angry, but whatever.
A couple of days later I got an email from someone that had seen the letter on the website. It was written in pseudo-academic speak about why I was a liar and was spreading propaganda by stating what happened to my family. I systematically refuted every point that he made, but every time he would come back (cc-ing in about 15 other people, including lawyers and other well-educated professionals) stating that I was a liar, and coming up with all kinds of pycho-babble nonsense about Plato’s cave, and all other manner of bullshit.
After a few days of going backwards and forwards, I just said enough is enough, and deleted the email account. I came to the conclusion that it is simply impossible to engage with these people and defeat their arguments no matter how rational you are.
Call them racist, call them delusional, call them whatever you like – there is something about these people that resists any kind of logic. Of course the evidence for the holocaust is overwhelming, but you will never, ever convince them that this is the case. You will just end up feeling sickened and empty. There is no way you can convert these people. The best that you can do is try and ensure that they have as little opportunity as possible to brainwash others into taking their illogical, racist views through effective communication and education.
Incidentally I take issue with the couple of people here saying they are 80% convinced it happened, and there is always doubt etc. There is irrefutable proof. I urge you not to go down the slippery path that can lead you to the Brian mind-state. My grandfather lost all of his family. All of them. There was not a single one left. My wife’s grandfather was also in Auschwitz, and also lost his entire family. These are not theories, this is real life, and there is no argument as to whether it happened. It is not a theory.
I would encourage none of you to bother responding to Brian. As well intentioned as you are, it will achieve precisely nothing. You are not going to change his mind. These people are best ignored.
832 Scratch
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:42 am
Lamprecht,
Inferential demographics – where did the approximately six million Jews go and why can’t they be found?
I feel that Randall has said what needs what to be said a lot better than I ever could. However, I should say that I have not studied your little group of wackjob conspiracy cultists a whole lot. I much prefer to concentrate on reading history done by qualified professionals than studying a bunch of whinging retards. From my interaction with Holocaust deniers online I have found that most of them have sympathy towards Nazism. Now, you’re right, this doesn’t mean that all Holocaust deniers are motivated by fascist sympathies. However, it does mean that they are motivated by anti-Semitism and at least a tacit approval of the Nazi regime.
As for the Jewish Holocaust deniers, the only person I have heard of from your list is David Cole, and he retracted his Holocaust Denial. I would still argue that they are motivated by anti-Semitism.
You’re also right that if someone loves Nazis and hates Jews it doesn’t necessarily make them wrong. However, if they love Nazis and hate Jews and then go on to “study” the Holocaust they are definitely going to have a bias that will negatively affect any of their conclusions. A racist or bigot will have views on history that confirm their racism and bigotry – the fact that you’re willing to swallow their history writing without questioning their motives shows a lot about the sort of ridiculous “scholarship” that you represent.
Again, I’m not visiting your little conspiracy cult forum. If you want examples of the lies and obfuscations used by revisionists, just visit your little fringe forum and continue reading your hackjob pseudo-history. Just look at the time you spent trying to deconstruct a fucking photograph and your obfuscation of Hitler’s words in Mein Kempf. The quote shows that Hitler was thinking about gassing Jews en masse already in the twenties. Your response was to go off on how the quote does not prove the existence of gas chambers. Of course it doesn’t, you fucking moron, but it does point to a man who was prepared to exterminate Jews.
And, no, the Jews were not being deported. That’s another lie.
As for the damning evidence, Randall already did a good job, but I can offer the following:
1) Eyewitness testimony from Allied Soldiers, SS Guards, Sonderkommandos, prisoners, local townspeople, and camp commandants.
2) Blue prints of gas chambers and crematoriums, huge orders for Zyklon B.
3) Speeches by Nazi leadership, the recorded policy of the Nazis themselves.
4) Eichmann’s confession, and the fact that most of the Nazi leadership did not deny the crimes, just their involvement in or knowledge of them.
5) Military photographs, press photographs, aerial photographs, and photos taken secretly by civilians and prisoners.
6) The camps themselves.
7) Letters, memos, articles, and bills. Footage.
All of this massive amount of evidence points to a Holocaust. The convergence of all of this data shows that the Nazis had a policy of Jewish extermination, that approximately six million were killed, and that gas chambers were among the methods used for extermination.
Again, you and your pathetic group are deniers, not revisionists and fiction writers, not historians.
833 Scratch
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:45 am
@kingoflondon,
Thank you very much for sharing. Your story is the type that is needed in confronting these people.
I think it IS important to counter these Holocaust deniers so that people do not get sucked into their bullshit, so that history is respected, and so that Fascism never rises again.
834 kingoflondon
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 am
@Scratch
Thankyou.
I agree that it is important on a public forum like this that someone takes the effort to show that such arguments are nonsense. After all, there are lots of impressionable people out there that are easily sucked into believing this kind of thing.
Yourself and Randall have done a commendable job in countering every point in an intelligent and logical manner, but unfortunately you will not be changing this guy’s mind, I can assure you. I wasted many hours arguing with these people. It is exactly what they want.
835 Scratch
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:21 am
@kingoflondon
You’re right, they won’t change their minds, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. No amount of evidence and no witness testimony will ever convince them because it doesn’t follow their conspiracy script.
But, again, thank you for sharing your story. I would love to have the opportunity to hear your father’s story.
836 Randall
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:28 am
@kingoflondon (832):
Thanks kingoflondon, and well said. You’ve hit it on the nose. I myself have tried to stay out of this because I know there is no end to it. Holocaust deniers, like other conspiracy theorists, and creationists, and the like—never give in to logic or the facts. They know that to do so undermines their agenda.
My father, his brothers, and my mother’s brothers left their homes in New York to fight the horror that brought about the loss of *your* family, as did so many others. I’m proud that they did. I’m only sorry that it couldn’t have been stopped sooner.
You and your family has to go on remembering. My family will do the same. We’ll never forget, either of us. And we will not let it happen again.
837 Scratch
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:14 am
Well said, Randall.
We will keep their memory burning brightly.
838 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:54 am
I don’t want to hop on the bandwagon, but @kingoflondon (832): Thank you for sharing that. And to the deniers, or those who are simply “questioning”: Genocide is one of the very deepest evils mankind is capable of committing. To deny the existence of ANY genocide is to deny man’s capability for such things, which will in turn allow it to grow and flourish unchecked. I don’t know what ethnic, religious, or political group you belong to, but if you were to be locked away, reserved for execution and experimentation, you would not be able to comprehend somebody across the globe telling everyone it wasn’t happening. When you deny the Holocaust, you are literally denying kingoflondon’s grandfather was murdered. As if to point at an obituary in the newspaper and claim it wasn’t real.
839 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:20 am
@ava (828):
Ava, et al, I’m going to try to point out your fallacies using other subjects. I am in no way as knowledgeable on most subjects in history as others here, especially Randall, but in the matter of the Holocaust, I have spent the last 15 or so years as an amateur reading everything I could find on the Holocaust from anyone, including deniers, who cared to write about it. The only thing that has kept me from many primary sources is that I have no knack for learning languages and so can’t puzzle out the German, but here is what I do know and try to refute this as you will, but I warn you, Randall will read this and he is a professor of Ancient Classical Studies at a prestigious university.
No rational people deny the existence of dinosaurs. Some argue over when they appear in the timeline, but no one with any interest in natural history at all says “Dinosaurs did not exist” and yet we base everything we know on dinosaurs from the fossil record. Scientists have literally created full mock ups of animals from just a few bones, and yet no one denies dinosaurs.
No rational people deny that Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world of his time and yet most of what we know of Alexander is based on the precious few records, mostly by one or two ancient historians, and weathered monuments that have survived from his time to ours.
EVERYTHING we know about Egypt is based at its root on one piece of black basalt known as the Rosetta Stone. Before Napoleon’s men found it, the Egyptian written records were locked to us but since the discovery of the Stone, no one has denied the existence of the Egyptian civilization or its multitude of accomplishments.
I could go on and on and on about Julius Caesar, the Han dynasty, the Incas and Aztecs, and a myriad of other pieces of history that NO ONE with any regard for history seriously questions except in the minutiae that real academics love to contemplate. However, if ANYONE were to go to, say Oxford or the Sorbonne or the University of Berlin and stand up before a class and proclaim “Julius Caesar never existed and his conquest of Gaul and Brittania are either exaggerations or complete fabrications” if a professor stood up and said that he would be LAUGHED OFF THE ROSTRUM and in all likelihood ridden out of town on a rail. The thought is simply ludicrous.
So I said all that to say this, we KNOW more about the Holocaust through primary sources, archeological evidence, and eyewitness accounts (both hostile and favorable) than we know about pretty much all the events of the ancient world COMBINED. So, against that MOUNTAIN of evidence, what can you pitiful deniers place?
Or would you deny Alexander, Caesar, and Egypt as well? History is not a cafeteria to peruse and pluck over. The criteria used to vette scholarship and research of one era does not change because the era changes. THAT is the second worst sin of Holocaust Denial — one can’t change the rules just to suit one’s fancy or theory. That is akin to shooting all one’s arrows and then drawing the bull’s eye where they happened to hit.
840 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:38 am
@Randall (827):
>>I have stayed out of this argument for reasons I gave much earlier;
>>that I am deeply tired of confronting liars, bigots, and the certifiably
>>insane over their various bizarre beliefs. For one thing it simply
>>becomes tedious over and over again. For another, they never listen,
>>never respond to questions or logic, and simply go on trumpeting their
>>bullshit. I have little doubt that you will be no different Lamprecht.
>>Nevertheless, I can’t stand listening to your smug BS any longer.
>>Yes, asshole, you are, quite simply, a Holocaust denier. You and the
>>TINY cadre of academics whom you cite. You AND they are anti-semites
>>AND, yes, neo-Nazis… or at the very least sympathetic to fascism.
AMAZING! Because Randall thinks so, it is so!
Randall, are you Jesus? Are you some immortal being that has the power to make an unsupported claim and it be credible at the same time?
Randall, really, where is the proof that I am an anti-Semite, neo-Nazi, or Fascist-sympathetic.
Same with the rest of the “Deniers” you speak of?
Not only that, Mr. Randall, why the hell does it matter?
You call someone “neo-Nazi” as if that means they’re wrong – why?
Why not defeat the actual arguments? You can, can’t you?
http://forum.codoh.com
Defeat the arguments Randall, you have to admit sifting through these comments is rather annoying – bring your friends, your family, let’s see what they have to say.
>>*I* am an historian. I have worked with many colleagues who specialized in
>>or had expert knowledge related to the Holocaust. The evidence for the facts
>>of what happened is in ABUNDANCE. It consists of not only eyewitness testimony
>>but a clear trail of documentation, as well as the documented testimony of SS
>>officers and functionaries of the Nazi German government who described the
>>logistics and the PURPOSE of not only the various camps but also the mobile
>>death squads that were geared SPECIFICALLY to the SYSTEMATIC murder of various
>>“undesirables” but most especially of the Jews. There is no “debate” about this,
>>and no “discussion” about it amongst ANY qualified, accredited scholars. The
>>evidence is MOUNTAINOUS.
Show me this mountain of evidence.
Hell, show me a small portion of it that proves 5-6 million died, largely in gas chambers, and the Nazis planned this extermination and carried it out as planned:
http://forum.codoh.com
>>What there IS and has been for some time is a small extremist faction of
>>anti-semitic individuals–some of them academics, some not, few of them historians
>>(Arthur Butz is an Engineering professor, Faurisson a literature prof) and NONE
>>respected by the the scholarly profession as a whole. All are outcast and shunned
>>in academic quarters. ALL share in common the same shallow and transparent goal
>>of trying to make Holocaust denial look “scholarly and sophisticated” by reframing
>>it as a species of revisionism based on what they absurdly attempt to pass off as
>>better critical thinking on the subject… when in fact they, like all conspiracy
>>theorists, creationists, and others with hidden or not-so-hidden agendas, are
>>simply attempting to broaden support for their disgusting, sick, and offensive
>>views—which in the case of Holocaust deniers are racist and anti-semitic. Putting
>>on airs of “respectable scholarship” is one of their tools—and you have employed
>>the same here. But the use of scholarly vocabulary and the attempt to force an
>>appearance of scholarship CANNOT hide the fact for a moment that they–and you–are
>>nothing more than neo-fascists and racists.
You forget to add WHY they are not respected by the profession – because people are intolerant of the simple belief that, perhaps, the Holocaust is exaggerated.
Do you have proof that Butz and Faurisson are anti-semites?
Why the hell do you even care, it’s not like it makes anything they said wrong.
Do you have ANY PROOF that my personal beliefs are that of a neo-Facist or racist, Randall?
Do you even know what that is?
>>MANY well-known Holocaust “revisionists” have been PROVEN to have close links
>>with neo-Nazi organizations–and the fact is that EVERY time Holocaust deniers
>>have tried to bring their case to legal courts–they have LOST. EVERY time.
I would like to know what dictionary you read which stated “Many” meant “all” and I would like a list of names, I can think of only a few.
Not only that, I can link various exterminationists to violent Jewish extremist groups but I guess that’s meaningless. Let’s not forget that Jewish groups in Canada were praising whoever set a pipe-bomb off at Zundel’s house. Zundel is probably the only revisionist that fits the “Neo-Nazi” claim but I don’t think he’s a semite. I really don’t care about his political beliefs because it has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of his work.
>>You will NOT get away with trying to characterize ME as “confused and simple
>>minded” you son of a bitch. Your views are the most evil and revolting sort
>>of underhanded deception that exists in our world, and I will not stand for
>>you having a free reign to go on here posting your lies and distortions as
>>though you have ANY kind of legitimacy or scholarship to support them. YOU
>>HAVE NONE.
Why are you so angry, sir? I haven’t done anything to you. You act as if I have killed your family and laughed at their grave.
What about the belief that the Holocaust exaggerated – the only personal belief I have given in this convo box – is “evil and revolting” Randall?
Did I call you “Confused and simple minded” Randall?
Why are you so intolerant, Randall? Why are you so bigoted? Everyone’s different, why do you hate those that are different from you?
Why do you allege that I have no “legitimacy or scholarship” when I haven’t even started to argue the facts, I’m just arguing that I, including most revisionists, are not “Racists” or “Nazis”.
>>DON’T give us ANY more of this bullshit about how “none of us” can know your
>>political beliefs or stances. YOUR WORDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. They are couched
>>in the same kind of “oh so reasonable” questions and soft jabs to the historical
>>mainstream that all revisionists use–in an attempt to hide the true agenda—which
>>is to excuse–even in the periphery–Nazi crimes as “no crimes at all,” or at worst
>>“not systematized,” but rather the “natural occurrences of war,” and “exaggerated.”
Stereotyping me, Randall? Nono, that’s not legitimate at all, it’s a brass assumption. Do you know what that is Randall?
You’ve come off as increasingly aggressive, I have not insulted you yet you come here throwing insult after insult, accusation after accusation, unsupportable claim after unsupportable claim.;
Admit it, you know nothing about me. You don’t know my name, where I live, my age, my education. You don’t even know if I’m Jewish. I could very well be.
You don’t know my political stance, you don’t know my ideological beliefs – which have NOTHING to do with my historical beleifs – you don’t know ANYTHING about me, Randall, yet you pretend to know more about me than I do.
Now, name one revisionist that has said that Germany committed “No crimes at all” during the 3rd Reich WWII.
Laughable assertion, Randall.
>>I have personally spoken to men who liberated camps. I have seen the evidence for
>>the Holocaust, vast in quantity. I have read the testimony not only of Allied
>>soldiers who saw the camps firsthand, but of former inmates AND of SS officers who
>>manned and oversaw the camps. I have seen documentation CLEARLY indicating the
>>VERY systematic and well-planned and premeditated slaughter of the Jews, captured
>>after the war. My father and five of my uncles fought in that war to erase the
>>kind of disgusting perversion you are speaking up for, masquerading as “reasonable
>>query.”
Show me this evidence then, Randall:
http://forum.codoh.com
Try to talk nice, I don’t know if it’s possible for you though!
Who am I speaking up for, Randall? Can you quote me to support such allegations?
>>Your tactics are tired and old, exactly the same ones used by extremist
>>conspiracy theorists and others who try to push deceptive notions in order
>>to further a hidden agenda.
>>THERE IS NO DEBATE about the Holocaust. It happened, and it happened as
>>the MAINSTREAM of historical scholarship has described it–EVER SINCE THE
>>EVIDENCE was uncovered DIRECTLY following the cessation of hostilities
>>in Europe–and even before. There is no debate because the evidence is
>>and always has been CLEAR and unarguable.
Your tactics are tired and old, exactly the same ones used by lying cowards and others who try to push deceptive notions in order to further a hidden agenda.
THERE IS NO DEBATE about hte Holocaust because you refuse to allow debate. You are afraid, a coward, Randall. You shake your fist and yell “IT HAPPENED!” at the top of your lungs as if that’s an argument. It isn’t, not at all.
You may be fooling some people but not me, Randall, I don’t fall for your silly tricks.
You have not offered ONE argument to support your case – not one.
There is no debate because you don’t allow it, Randall. Many European countries will put you in jail if you even think about it.
>>The ONLY way ANY so-called “revisionist” has built a case to the contrary
>>is by obfuscation, distortion, and downright contradiction of the facts
>>WITHOUT any real scientific or scholarly support.
Sounds like exterminationist view IMO.
>>I have spoken on this site many times against all manner of vapid nonsense,
>>idiocy, distortion of truth and fact, and the like. This is the most odious
>>I’ve ever had to address, and it nearly makes me sick that I have to do so.
>>The fortunate thing is, Lamprecht, that no one EXCEPT anti-semites is
>>listening to you. Revisionism will NEVER gain ANY ground in respected
>>academic circles because it has NO evidence to counter the voluminous
>>evidence for the event that it tries to revise. You are a voice in a tiny
>>minority—and if I and my colleagues have anything to do with it—and we
>>will—you and your kind will stay that way.
You pretend like that means I’m wrong, or that it’s hopeless. It isn’t, sir. I refuse to believe the filthy lies thrown at me because they are lies. I don’t care what you believe or what someone else believes, a lie is a lie. Your post contains not one fact that suggests the Holocaust happened as claimed by mainstread historians.
Try posting some here:
http://forum.codoh.com
If you’re brave enough. Bring your friends and family, they can help with their extensive knowledge on the so-called “Holocaust”.
841 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:40 am
@Shannon (840):
It seems you haven’t read ANYTHING from “Deniers” since you don’t even know what they allege.
People do not say the Holocaust, as in the persection and mistreatment of Jews by the 3rd Reich in WWII, “did not happen” – that’s absurd.
They question PORTIONS of it, the same with your dinosaur analogy.
842 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:48 am
@kingoflondon (832):
Can you show us this article or this forum or whatever you are claiming existed?
I would personally like to see it so your statements can be verified.
843 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:53 am
@ianz09 (839):
>>Genocide is one of the very deepest evils mankind is
>>capable of committing. To deny the existence of ANY
>>genocide is to deny man’s capability for such things,
>>which will in turn allow it to grow and flourish unchecked.
This statement is wrong in so many ways!
If a genocide is claimed to have happened, and it didn’t, saying it didn’t isn’t denying the possibility of genocide ever occurring and it certainly doesn’t help it flourish.
That’s nonsense, sir, and trying to spin revisionism off as something harmful when it only aims to get the truth out – or SHOULD only aim to.
>>When you deny the Holocaust, you are literally denying
>>kingoflondon’s grandfather was murdered. As if to point
>>at an obituary in the newspaper and claim it wasn’t real.
As I said, nobody denies the Holocaust and I AM denying that he was murdered – because according to kingoflondon – he wasn’t!
KOL said:
“My grandfather, a Polish Jew, and was detained in Auschwitz during the war. He was liberated, and was sent to the UK following the end of the war where he met my grandmother. My grandfather died shortly before my birth”
He DIED after the war ended, sir.
He was DETAINED at Auschwitz – a “Death camp” – but did not die.
I wonder why.
Where the hell did you get murder from this post?
844 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:59 am
@Lamprecht (841):
Okay, fine. They question PORTIONS of it. Unfortunately, many of the portions they question are the ones with the most indisputable evidence.
Here’s one example. Carlo Mattogno (ever heard of him?) used calculations to allegedly ‘prove’ the ovens at Auschwitz-Birkenau couldn’t possibly have cremated the 1.1 million bodies reputable sources claim were processed at the Death Camp.
He’s right. The ovens alone couldn’t have cremated all those gassed, but reputable primary source evidence shows that when the available ovens at Auschwitz-Birkenau went over capacity, such as when the Hungarian Jewish population was liquidated in early 1944, open-air pit burning was used. Photographs from the air and ground show open-air pit burning in action and eyewitness evidence corroborates them.
Deniers don’t “question” they present half-truths.
Furthermore, you said:
“People do not say the Holocaust, as in the persection and mistreatment of Jews by the 3rd Reich in WWII, “did not happen” – that’s absurd.”
Let me point out that “persecution and mistreatment” are not the same as systematic extermination. The word “holocaust” is from the Greek holokauston meaning “a burning” and is usually imbued with a religious meaning such as in the Septuagint Greek translation of the Old Testament where holokauston is used for “an offering consumed by fire.”
To be more blunt, the loyal Japanese-Americans were “persecuted and mistreated” by our government during WWII, but no one in his or her right mind would say that they were subjected to a Holocaust.
845 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 am
@Lamprecht (843):
Dude (or Dudette), just forget Auschwitz. Forget it. You probably don’t even know what the whole Auschwitz complex even was.
I want you to explain Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, and Madjanek. Those four camps existed for no other reason than the extermination of “undesirables”.
Every Holocaust Denier wants to build a case based on Auschwitz because there are “so many” Auschwitz survivors. That’s because everyone who went to Auschwitz wasn’t sent to Auschwitz I aka. Auschwitz-Birkenau, which was one of the five Death Camps. Some people who were sent to Auschwitz went to Auschwitz III aka. Auschwitz-Buna.
So forget Auschwitz for a moment. Tell me a story of a survivor of one of the other four Death Camps. You won’t find but the most meager barest handful because Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, and Madjanek did not leave survivors.
846 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:14 am
@Scratch (833):
David Cole “Retracted” from revisionism due to death threats. He had to go into hiding for years.
You would still argue they’re anti-Semitic?
HA!
You don’t know ANYTHING about them you buffoon! Antisemitism is an ideological belief, why do you assert so much about people you know NOTHING about?
Just look at the time you spent trying to deconstruct a fucking photograph and your obfuscation of Hitler’s words in Mein Kempf. The quote shows that Hitler was thinking about gassing Jews en masse already in the twenties. Your response was to go off on how the quote does not prove the existence of gas chambers. Of course it doesn’t, you fucking moron, but it does point to a man who was prepared to exterminate Jews.
The photograph was a fraud as I pointed out, has it been taken off yet?
Hitler’s words do not prove that he was thinking about gassing Jews at all, sir. Good job obfuscating them.
It clearly says that if 12-15 thousand “Hebrew corrupters” were killed by gas, WWI may have been one. Do not spin this off and construe it to mean that he planned to gas Jews, and it certainly doesn’t give any proof that he actually did.
As for your “Damning evidence”:
1. There is eyewitness testimony from Allied and Axis soldiers, SS guards, prisoners, commandants, etc that claim there was no extermination or gassing. Why don’t you give names, sir?
Rassinier and Burg were prisoners, Rademacher, Staeglich, and COllins were veterans, Kramer denied gas chambers, Wagner “never saw any gas chamber at Sobibor”, Bolender killed himself and left behind a note saying he was innocent, Laak claimed the allegations against him were “99% lies and Communist propaganda”, Cukurs told his family that he was innocent, and the list goes on.
Again, give me specific names and quotes.
2. Show me these blue prints – I have not seen one legit piece of paper showing plans to create a homicidal gas chamber.
Zyclon-B was used to delouse clothing and kill lice to stop the spread of typhus. There is nothing about Zyclon-B itself that implies homicidal usage. Crematoriums were used to cremate dead bodies, nobody said the camps weren’t rampant with death and disease.
Now, show me an oven that can cremate a body into ash in mere minutes!
3. What speeches? What “recorded policy” are you talking about? Remember: SPECIFICS. You’re too broad.
4. Eichmann made various unsupportable claims such as a Soviet submarine tank engine being taken onto land and being used to gas Jews – no documentary evidence exist for any capture of Soviet subs by Germans, and bringing it so far into land would have been a waste.
He also claimed that blood would squirt out of the ground like a geyser – an utter impossibility
It hasn’t been alleged that Eichmann himself participated in the supposed extermination – but that he knowingly arranged for their deportation to such camps.
Ther is not one piece of evidence that suggests that Eichmann deliberately ordered ONE Jew to be gassed in a concentration camp.
And the Nazis would have been stupid to deny the crimes – look at the witch trials. Those claimed to be witches didn’t deny that witchcraft exists (Though it certainly doesn’t) but just that they weren’t witches.
To deny that witchcraft existed is certian death, they knew it.
Also, many of the Nazis were surprised, they actually thought that the extermination DID happen, even though they didn’t see it at all (Because there wasn’t one to see).
You also have to account torture into this, as well as death threats.
5. Show me these photographs – I’ve seen various “Aerial photographs” that show that there was no extermination. There is a photograph of Babi-Yar during the time that an extermination was supposed to be taking place but there is nothing of that sort visible. Why?
Also, many of the photographs are miscaptioned or doctored – show me a photograph of Jews getting gassed and I’ll believe you.
6. The camps themselves prove it? Hardly. Nobody denies the existence of the camps and the camps have been used to go AGAINST the Holocaust story.
7. Be specific, of course.
8. It’s difficult to say, one day you can be Jewish and the next you can say you aren’t – you can also go into hiding or emigrate.
There is no proof that a population drop of 5-6 million Jews existed in Europe and there is certainly no proof that they all died.
847 kingoflondon
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:15 am
“He was DETAINED at Auschwitz – a “Death camp” – but did not die.
I wonder why.”
Because he was incredibly lucky, unlike the rest of his family who were all murdered. Exactly the same thing happened to my wife’s grandfather who is still alive, and still has a number tattooed on his arm. Two men surviving from large families through sheer luck.
Perhaps you should have read the original piece I wrote. How dare you imply that these weren’t death camps. “I wonder why.” You are pathetic.
I find it interesting that you would seek to see the forum on which I claim that there are neo nazi groups spouting racist diatribe. Surely there is no question as to whether such forums exist? Showing a link to the forum in question would immediately give away my identity which is not something I am willing to do on a public internet forum.
Why do you care? Of all the millions of things to get interested in, why the Holocaust? What drives your quest for this knowledge? When was the first time that you came to the realisation that the Jews (because we are all the same so it’s ok the generalise us all) were acting in these underhand ways? When did you start to have doubts on the extent of the Holocaust? It’s just sinister.
I really do not want to get drawn into this debate. I did not tell that story in order to prove the Holocaust, I wrote it as an example of what happens when you try and engage with people like you. It’s pointless. I will never ‘win’ as there is no way of changing your mind. I will not get drawn into it. I find it thoroughly depressing that there are people out there that think in the way that you do, but I accept that your mind is not going to be changed. All this debate is entirely pointless. I could say that I would kick you ass etc. But this would be pointless too – it doesn’t mean anything over the internet. We will never meet. I see no need to engage with you.
848 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
@Shannon (846):
Show me 1% of the alleged mass murder at Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, or Madjanek.
If you do that, you can win 100,000 dollars.
Also, my case against Auschwitz is not that there are so many survivors.
As for Sobibor, that’s easy.
Diesel exhaust is alleged to have been used at Sobibor – although diesel is useless for extermination and only ONE report of death by diesel exists, from an old man too!
Yitzad Arad:
“Only one-third of the 250,000 victims in this camp had been killed and buried there before the cremating began.”
Where are the 83,000 bodies?
Here’s a map:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/sobibor/sobibor rutherford map.jpg
Do you think those can fit 83 thousand bodies?
Now, in Escape and Resistance they speak about (Page 311) the escape of Sobibor with underground tunnels.
I quote:
“The tunnel had to originate at the stove in the carpentry and exit behind the minefield, a distance of about 35 meters. According to the plan, its height and width would have to be 75 x 75 centimeters and it would need to be 80 centimeters beneath the earth’s surface, so that it would not touch the mine holes. It could not go any deeper, because there was a danger that it might strike water”
As you see, the graves can only be 5’1″ deep, 80cm + 75cm or they hit water.
This is at Sobibor, remember.
Now I took that map and cut out the scale and mass graves (I split one in half) and rearranged:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/408/imagevh.jpg
You could do the same thing in paint if you want to, it will show the same thing.
This grave can be no more than 100m x 70m – which is seven thousand meters squared. Add the third demention, depth, and factor that in, 1.55m.
We obtain the factor of 10,850 meters cubed.
So if there were 83 thousand prisoners, they would each get… 0.13 cubic meters of space.
Impossible, simply impossible.
849 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:29 am
@Lamprecht (846):
3. What speeches? What “recorded policy” are you talking about? Remember: SPECIFICS. You’re too broad.
How about Adolf Hitler:
‘Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows – at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example – as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews.’
Citation:
Hell, Josef. “Aufzeichnung,” 1922, ZS 640, p. 5, Institut für Zeitgeschichte. Der Gerade Weg.
850 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:31 am
How about Rudolph Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz?
“I personally arranged on orders received from Himmler in May 1941 the gassing of two million persons between June and July 1941 and 1943.”
Transcript of Hoess’ Trial dated March 16, 1946
851 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
@kingoflondon (848):
The rest of your family was murdered at Auschwitz? How? How do you know they were murdered in this way?
Could they have not just died of typhus?
I don’t believe they were death camps – or extermination camps – because I’ve seen no evidence suggesting people were exterminated in them.
I KNOW forums exist like that but I would like to see proof to support your statements. You want to hide your identity, that’s alright, but don’t expect me to believe everything you say.
I am not only interested in the Holocaust, my good sir, I am actually more interested in anthropology. The Holocaust is something I’ve just read about and researched for a while.
I NEVER generalized all Jews or claimed they all acted in a specific way. Do not make unsupportable claims, I do not hate Jews.
I doubted the Holocaust since 8th grade but didn’t read anything about it until later.
I was never a “Racist” and never, and still don’t, have any ties to “anti-Semitic” or “neo-Nazi” organizations.
What’s so “Sinister” about doubting history?
I will never “Win” either since your mind will never change. You’re so bent up on believing such absurdities because it appeals to your emotion – logic and reasoning is clouded.
What people think the way I do? What way do I think that’s “depressing”, KOL?
852 segues
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
@kingoflondon (832): A most moving and beautifully worded post. Thank you for sharing what, I imagine, is a terribly painful family story.
I raised my children in Los Angeles, and when they were all about 11 or 12 years old the school they attending took them to the Holocaust Museum. Each one came home in tears, unable to comprehend the levels of evil which men are capable.
I also acted as a parent chaperon when Spielberg gave free tickets to all of the high schools (and jr. high’s if I recall), to see Shindler’s List. At first, the theater full of 15 to 17 year old kids were as rowdy as one would expect. It took about ten minutes for the theater to become as silent as a tomb. The only sounds I heard from then on were sobs.
As a single parent, I had many discussions with them, from the time they were 4, about the uniqueness and quality of all men. We talked about morality and ethics as being the basis of all good.
There is no question about what happened, as you well know. I think what is happening now is the result of parents not taking the time to teach their children anything about equality, morality, ethics, or logic.
853 archangel
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:35 am
144 archiealt
I know this is a bit late. But umm… are you talking to me? Or Scratch (143)?
854 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:36 am
Hitler again:
August 22, 1939, at Obersalzberg (site of The Eagle’s Nest):
“Our strength lies in our speed and our brutality. Genghis Khan condemned millions of women and children to death consciously and with a merry heart. History sees him only as a founder of an empire. I do not mind what the weak West-European civilization will say of me. I have given orders to shoot anyone who dares criticize even with a single word the fact that the aim of the war is not the attainment of some set boundaries, but the physical annihilation of the enemy. With that aim in mind, I have so far ordered the formation of the Totenkopf Units in the East, enjoining them to kill relentlessly and without mercy, men, women, and children of Polish origin and speaking the Polish language. Only in this way will we gain the territory we need in order to live… Poland is going to be depopulated and settled with Germans.”
855 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 am
@Lamprecht (843): Correct, I did make mistake, his grandfather was a survivor. Rather than wade through the posts, I will only say that somebody mentioned a relative who was killed, in which case I confused it with KOL’s post. However, you are fully aware of the point I was trying to make despite my mistake, and you failed to address that. To kingoflondon: Sorry for the confusion, with so many posts from so many people, it is easy to get confused.
856 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:45 am
@Shannon (851):
He was tortured, Shannon.
Not only that, “Mainstream” history claims that 1.1 million died at Auschwitz, not all gassed – so you don’t believe his claim either, do you?
“During the first interrogation [the British Field Security Police] beat me to obtain evidence. I do not know what was in the transcript, or what I said, even though I signed it, because they gave me liquor and beat me with a whip. It was too much even for me to bear.” (Rudolf Hoess, Death Dealer: The Memoirs of the SS Kommandant at Auschwitz, page 179)
Torture is also admitted by his torturers in the book Legions of Death on page 236f.
Hoess also claims he was told to murder Jews in June 1941 and the Auschwitz gassings began.
Mainstream historians claim that the alleged orders for the “Final Solution” began in the fall 1941, the alleged gassings in 1942 (See IMT-Document 3868-PS)
His own book, page 160, says human fat was collected + poured onto flames. Fat isn’t needed to “Maintain the fires in the pits” at all.
He further claims that they shaved the prisoner’s hair AFTER they were killed – though photos show them shaved and ALIVE and shaving them when dead would be rather pointless.
Next:
“The door [of the gas chamber] was opened a half an hour after the gas was thrown in and the ventilation system was turned on. Work was immediately started to remove the corpses. [...] they could be seen shifting the corpses with one hand while they chewed on something they were holding in the other.”
Zyclon-B doesn’t affect Nazis? Are they immune?
How could you eat in a chamber full of poison gas?
He said in his autobiography they would eat AND smoke – cyanide gas is EXPLOSIVE. You can’t smoke in a room filled with explosive gas, can you Shannon?
“At first we poured waste oil over the bodies. Later on we used mehtanol… He [Blobel] also tried using dynamite to blow up the corpses, but he had very little success with this method.”(Page 32)
They tried blowing up the corpses? HA!
Liquid fuel can ignite wood but can’t be used to incinerate what can’t burn well – especially not methanol, CH3OH being the most volatile of all alcohols.
Shannon, how long does it take to gas Jews?
Hoess claims 20 minutes, Pery Broad claims four.
Fischer claims that it took 20 minutes but 10-15 were used afterwards to let the gas escape, Hoess claims they immediately went in, eating and smoking.
Contradictions!
857 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
Kurt Gerstein head of the Technical Disinfection Department of the Waffen-SS
“I see everything! The mothers, their babies at the breast, the little naked children, the men and women, naked. They enter into the death chamber, pushed by the leather whips of the SS. Pack well, that is what the captain ordered. Seven to eight hundred persons on twenty-five square meters. More than half are children …Up till then people were alive in these chambers .. another 25 minutes went by. True, many were now dead. After 28 minutes, only a few were still alive. At last after 32 minutes, everyone was dead. Finally, all were dead like pillars of basalt, still erect, not having any place to fall . . . . The outside doors to the gas chamber were opened and the bodies taken out. One could tell families even in death. They were still holding hands, stiffened in death so that it was difficult to tear them apart to clear the chamber for the next load,”
Citation:
Written deposition after surrender May 26, 1945.
858 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:49 am
@Lamprecht (855):
Hitler wasn’t tortured. I thought you said he never claimed any intention to exterminate the Jews.
I can only say this about you, Lamprecht “None is so blind as he who will not see.”
859 renegade01
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:51 am
@Lamprecht (843):
“He was DETAINED at Auschwitz – a “Death camp” – but did not die.
I wonder why.”
Obviously you don’t know as much about these camps as you claim to. Just because the killed the people in them doesn’t mean they were brought in TO be killed. They were brought in and divided into groups upon arrival. Those who could work and those who couldn’t. The ones that COULDN’T work were killed immediately while those that could work labored in the camp. THAT is why there were survivors, because those caught at the end of the war and put into the camps were able to work and were not killed immediately.
860 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
@ianz09 (856): I did not ignore your point, sir. Your point was irrelevant.
There’s absolutely no reason to oppose historican inquiry.
Now, opposition of racism and xenophobia is understandable, especially against yourself – I am opposed to it also though believe it shouldn’t be punishable by law.
861 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
@renegade01 (860)
I’m waiting for an authentic Nazi document which orders the camp staff to do this.
Also, would a small, 15 year old girl be able to work?
862 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:59 am
@Shannon (859)
Hitler never gave an order to exterminate the Jews of Europe.
No, he was not tortured, he committed suicide before that could have happened.
I didn’t say Hitler was tortured, I said HOESS was.
Read my post
863 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
@Lamprecht (860):
Sorry, kid, you don’t get to make the rules. We have all the evidence on our side.
I’m still waiting for you to produce ANY document by a reliable historian that supports any position or point you’ve tried to make.
864 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
@Lamprecht (861):
“No, he was not tortured, he committed suicide before that could have happened.”
Now how do you know that? Do you have an authentic document showing where his remains were found? Do you have DNA? The so called pictures of his and Braun’s burned remains might have been doctored or faked.
How do you KNOW Hitler didn’t escape the bunker with Bormann and live out the rest of his miserable days in Argentina or Paraguay with the rest of the ODESSA crew?
865 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
@Shannon (858):
Gerstein is a catch though!
He claimed that 25 MILLION Jews were killed (Lol?).
He said, at Treblinka, he saw “Whole mountains of clothes and underwear about 35-40 meters high” This pedestal is 40 meters:
http://www.stayinsamara.com/pict/Glory_Monument_13_meter_figure_on_%20a_40_meter_pedestal.jpg
Did this pile magically disappear?
Using his numbers of victims per gassing and size of the ‘gas chambers’ you obtain a figure of 4 people per square meter.
HA!
French scholar Henri Rocques has shown that there are SIX conflicting versions of Gerstein’s confessions.
He also described Hitler visiting a camp in August – although this visit never happened! How honest!
“Seven to eight hundred persons on twenty-five square meters”
Think about that LONG AND HARD Shannon.
Is that even possible?
866 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:11 pm
@Shannon (864)
Define “Reliable historian”
@Shannon (865)
It’s a historical mystery Shannon. There is an explainable mystery but when one claims over 100,000 people exist underground at one camp and REFUSES to prove it, that’s something!
867 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
@Lamprecht (855):
“He said in his autobiography they would eat AND smoke – cyanide gas is EXPLOSIVE. You can’t smoke in a room filled with explosive gas, can you Shannon?”
You don’t know chemistry either, Lampy.
Yes, Cyanide is explosive . . . at 56,000 ppm. Unfortunately, A hydrogen cyanide concentration of 300 ppm in air will kill a human within about 10 minutes. It is estimated that hydrogen cyanide at a concentration of 3500 ppm will kill a human in about 1 minute. Yes, one can smoke in a room of cyanide because the concentration is too low to explode OR kill after the ventilation system was turned on, which brings me to:
Next:
“The door [of the gas chamber] was opened a half an hour after the gas was thrown in and the ventilation system was turned on. Work was immediately started to remove the corpses. [...] they could be seen shifting the corpses with one hand while they chewed on something they were holding in the other.”
Zyclon-B doesn’t affect Nazis? Are they immune?”
See, what you’ve done here is called “quote doctoring”. You conveniently left out the fact that Nazis were not the ones removing the corpses AND were not the ones standing in the gas chambers. Removal and disposal of the dead was the job of the Sonderkommando — a cadre of prisoners left alive to do the dirty work cleaning out the gas chambers and burning the bodies, and yes, members of the Sonderkommando OFTEN died from being forced to enter the gas chambers too soon after a gassing and before the ventilation system had had time to evacuate enough gas.
Furthermore, yes, the members of the Sonderkommando WOULD have eaten and worked in the gas chambers at the same time because they were fed starvation rations and when a man is starving and given something to eat, he doesn’t give a shit if he’s in a gas chamber or a five star restaurant.
All you are doing, Lampy, is showing your ignorance. Cite some REAL sources, PLEASE! I just want to see if you can.
868 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
@Shannon (855):
This is just a crude distortion of Hitler’s words by opposing officers. All other versions of his August 22 1939 words to his military commanders say nothing about ordering the annihilation of Poles.
Another part of this alleged quote is that Goering (a 260 pound man) lept on a tabletop and danced wildly to celebrate these words – obviously omitted because it would strain credibility.
The origin of this quote is an American journalist Louis Lochner, an anti-Nazi. This is only written down, not confirmed by the Fuehrer or any of his collegues.
Basically, we have a quote referenced by an anti-Nazi American supposedly by Hitler that contradicts all other quotes from that same day to the same people.
Lol…
869 renegade01
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
@Lamprecht (860):
Yeah she would. However when she eventually ran out of energy due to the meager food given she’d be left to die or just be killed. If they’re no use then don’t keep them. I’m also pretty sure if you were a Nazi you wouldn’t want documented evidence that you were doing this. However I have listened to a speech by a a Holocaust survivor in which he explains this in detail. But hey, I guess you can’t trust the people who survived this incident more than you can believe these historians who have made up bullshit evidence years after it happened right?
870 jfrater
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
@Lamprecht (762): Can you point me to something that explains how the image I have used is fake? I have just heard you saying it is fake with no verifying source.
871 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
@Shannon (868):
>>You don’t know chemistry either, Lampy.
>>Yes, Cyanide is explosive . . . at 56,000 ppm. Unfortunately, A hydrogen cyanide
>>concentration of 300 ppm in air will kill a human within about 10 minutes. It is
>>estimated that hydrogen cyanide at a concentration of 3500 ppm will kill a human
>>in about 1 minute. Yes, one can smoke in a room of cyanide because the concentration
>>is too low to explode OR kill after the ventilation system was turned on
Shannon, why ignore the other point – that they’re BREATHING (And eating) in a room FILLED with poison gas?
>>See, what you’ve done here is called “quote doctoring”. You conveniently left out
>>the fact that Nazis were not the ones removing the corpses AND were not the ones
>>standing in the gas chambers. Removal and disposal of the dead was the job of the
>>Sonderkommando — a cadre of prisoners left alive to do the dirty work cleaning out
>>the gas chambers and burning the bodies, and yes, members of the Sonderkommando OFTEN
>>died from being forced to enter the gas chambers too soon after a gassing and before
>>the ventilation system had had time to evacuate enough gas.
Shannon ignores that Hoess was TORTURED and that he was threatened, his son was a major target.
Would a US court of law accept testimony sworn by a TORTURED, THREATENED man?
Of course not.
You also ignore the dating inconsistencies I have pointed out and the other absurdities.
I guess if you ignore them, they no longer exist.
More from Hoess:
Q. But was not it [sic] quite dangerous work for these inmates to go into these chambers and work among the bodies and among the gas fumes?
A. No.
Q. Did they carry gas masks?
A. They had some, but they did not need them, as nothing ever happened.
And it might not have been the Nazis that took them out, but the Sonderkommando did and you have offered NO PROOF that ONE died from poison gas or that even ONE pulled a dead body out of a gas chamber.
Also, if they died in the gas chambers often, why didn’t they take the gas masks. Hoess claims that nobody needed them yet you claim some died.
Why the inconsistency, Shannon? Spouting YOUR ignorance on the subject?
Why ignore the claim of pouring oil and methanol on the bodies?
Why ignore the claim of dynamite being used to blow up corpses?
Why ignore the inconsistent claims of gassing times?
Define a “Real source” Shannon, I’m beginning to think that you think something is “real” just because it agrees with you.
If YOU knew chemistry, Shannon, you would know how absurd the gassing claims are and know that the cyanide residue on the alleged gas chamber walls is not enough to be consistent with the gassing story.
Give me the name of one Jew, with proof, that was killed in a Nazi gas chamber.
872 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
@jfrater (871): I made a post on it, see #822
873 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
@renegade01 (870):
Apparently we can’t believe all the survivors because if we did we would have so many conflicting claims we wouldn’t know anything.
874 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:47 pm
@Lamprecht (869):
EVERYONE PLEASE LOOK AT THIS BECAUSE LAMPY HAS FINALLY EXPOSED HIM/HERSELF AS, AT BEST A NAZI SYMPATHIZER AND AT WORST A CARD-CARRYING NEO-NAZI!
“This is just a crude distortion of Hitler’s words by opposing officers. All other versions of his August 22 1939 words to his military commanders say nothing about ordering the annihilation of Poles.”
What in the HELL are you talking about, Freak? You just sided with HITLER! You are defending him against what YOU say is “just a crude distortion of Hitler’s words”.
Why would anyone but a NAZI sympathizer wrapped in the Swastika flag of a BROKEN AND DEFEATED regime give a wildcard DAMN about ADOLF HITLER’S words being distorted?
IF THAT’S NOT ENOUGH, YOU GO ON TO SAY:
“The origin of this quote is an American journalist Louis Lochner, an anti-Nazi. This is only written down, not confirmed by the Fuehrer or any of his collegues.
Basically, we have a quote referenced by an anti-Nazi American supposedly by Hitler that contradicts all other quotes from that same day to the same people.”
NO ONE CALLS HITLER “THE FUHRER” TODAY EXCEPT SKINHEAD, WHITE SUPREMACIST, NEO-NAZIS. YOU ARE BASICALLY SAYING YOU ARE NOT ANTI-NAZI.
Now, you can post anything you want from here on out, but you have proven by your defense of the vilest man of the 20th Century that your true colors are Red, White, and Black and the black is a Swastika.
Hey, I’m just the amateur. I’m pretty sure once Randall or Ianz09 or one of the other pros show up, they may not be able to respond for laughing so hard at someone having issue with ADOLF HITLER BEING MISREPRESENTED!!!
Write what you want, you Skinheaded Freak! You’ve proven what you are once and for all. My only regret is I can’t track you down with my buddy 1st Lieutenant Aldo Raine and the rest of the Inglorious Basterds and carve a swastika in your forehead so you can’t hide what you are inside from decent people. Seig Heil, Bitch.
875 Adolf Fries
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Feed his debate and you will make him feel as though he has won. The concentration camps are truly one of the reasons why i have a misanthropic view of the global community. Lamprecht, you must know this debate will go on forever and you may or may not be taking joy from this. People let it go. its the best you can do. Avoid throwing stones at the dogs that bark at you, keep moving.
876 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:07 pm
@Shannon (875):
Shannon, what are you talking about?
Nowhere does my post show me as a “Nazi sympathizer” because I amn’t one.
I didn’t “Side with Hitler” at all, I simply said that no other version of these words suggest an annihilation of Poles and that this quote is a crude distortion of what he actually said.
That has nothing to do with my ideological beliefs or what I think about Hitler.
I “give a wildcard damn” because I tend to ignore biases and prejucides and look for the truth shielded behind such bullshit.
The quote was wrong, Shannon.
Call me a nazi or whatever the hell you want, it’s still wrong.
Your proof that I’m a “SKINHEAD, WHITE SUPREMACIST, NEO-NAZI” is that I called him “The Fuehrer”?
HA!
That’s because you know absolutely nothing about me and have absolutely no proof that I’m a Skinhead, White supremacist, or neo-Nazi.
Not only that, you’re ignoring my arguments and saying they’re wrong on the sole basis that I am a “SKINHEAD, WHITE SUPREMACIST, NEO-NAZI” – although I am not.
Even if I was, that doesn’t make me wrong.
I haven’t defended Hitler at all, I just don’t think we should falsely attribute lies to him.
I’m not a Nazi, Shannon, I would prefer you stop throwing labels and insults at me – it’s impertinent to the debate and shows how you’re a lying coward who is afraid of debate.
Not afraid, go to http://forum.codoh.com and “Prove” that you’re right.
Bring your friends Randall or Ianz09 or whatever other “Pros” you know of, your history professor or anyone else.
877 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
I wonder why Shannon is so violent and so hateful towards opposition.
Maybe she got beat up by a skinhead for being a whiny Jew?
The hell if I know, but I do know she has some disgusting, violence-brewing hate deep down in her heart and could pounce any moment.
I’d be afraid to be near her, she seems like a monster!
Shannon, I suggest a psychologist.
It’s sad you’re trying to justify your violence and hatred and bigotry by falsely labeling people.
878 renegade01
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:12 pm
@Lamprecht (874):
Why don’t you link me to some examples of survivors of the Holocaust, who were actually in a concentration camp, that will deny it happened. Please, I would very much like to see a survivor say it. Not a link to a historian who claims that a survivor, but an actual survivor who said it never happened. I have yet to actually ever meet one, and I highly doubt you did.
879 kingoflondon
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:23 pm
@Lamprecht
Ubelievable. You say:
>>What’s so “Sinister” about doubting history?
>>What way do I think that’s “depressing”, KOL?
I will answer by quoting the beginning of your response:
>>”The rest of your family was murdered at Auschwitz?
>>How? How do you know they were murdered in this way?
>>Could they have not just died of typhus?”
I’m not even going to counter anything you’ve said in terms of supposed fact, just based on this comment, you are trying to tell me that even if they were taken from their homes, subjected to forced labour for a number of years before dying of a disease like typhus, that this would not ‘count’ in your book as murder? Like it would be normal for entire families to die of typhus? ‘JUST died of Typhus’ JUST? WOULD THAT NOT COUNT AS MURDER? An ENTIRE family, my wife’s grandfather’s ENTIRE family. Typhus? Even if it was true, is this not murder in your book? What is it? A coincidence?
880 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:10 pm
To all, just in case anyone doubted, here is proof that our resident skinhead, kkk, white supremacist, Hitler loving, neo-Nazi, Holocaust denier Lamprecht’s pet “site” at http://forum.codoh.com has as the list of topics on its first page.
CODOH stands for Committee on Open Debate on the Holocaust.
Now, y’all take a look at this list of topics and tell me what this site is about?
It reminds me of the Institute For Historical Review, which is another officious sounding site run by Nazi lovers under the pretense of scholarship. I do so wish I had better hacking skills so I could DDoS the hell out of these bullshit sites.
Oh, one more thing, did y’all know France, Austria, and Germany are “Police States?”
Anyway, check out this list of denier topics:
‘Holocaust’ Debate / Comments / News
Sticky: Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
Locked: Respect guidelines or take a hike.
The “Holocaust” – #4 thing to not discuss online
Is there even a real debate on the holocaust?
by wtfhappenedtohess » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:28 pm
Wolzek = Sobibor? Monowitz = Birkenau?
Majdanek
Real “deniers” are the victors of WW2, especially the Jews
Germany releases list of all German Jews murdered by Nazi’s
List of Holocaust Revisionists
Muehlenkamp and Mermelstein
Irvings sites hacked by thugs?
Dr Toben will be released at 8.00am, 12th November 2009
Wikipedia bans any reference to CODOH
Eleonore Hodys
Hunt posts Zisblatt video. Never before seen lies
Locked: Damon Bryce’s forensic proof for the murder of 2.1 million j
Holocaust-denying bishop charged
dirty tricks to spread lies…
Memoirs of Hitler aide could finally end Holocaust claims
ADL confronts CODOH on Campus!
The Biased German Press ( Deutsch )
Greeting to all from new member
text of pfaffenberger affidavit
Secret OSS Agents vouch for camp footage
Hunt takes 2nd place in David McCalden Challenge
881 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:15 pm
@renegade01 (879):
Josef G Burg and Paul Rassinier are two good examples.
Burg’s books are all in German.
His book Suendenboecke is available:
http://vho.org/D/s/II.html
View page 74:
“Weiß Gott: kein Wunder, daß der Stärkere sich auf den Schwächeren warf! Doch selbst in dieser grimmigsten, ja, tragischen Stunde des deutschen wie des jüdischen Weltschicksals lag es – das glaube ich zu wissen – nicht in der Absicht der deutschen Führung, die bewußte Endlösung in eine totale Liquidierung alles jüdischen Lebens ausröcheln zu lassen – nicht nur, weil das rein technisch gar nicht möglich gewesen wäre, sondern aus Gründen der Vernunft, wenn auch einer recht kühlen Vernunft.”
He isnists the “Endloesung – Final solution” evisaged the emigration of the Jews, not the “Total liquidaiton of all Jews.”
One page 238 he calls the 6 million statistic “A legend poisoning peaceful relations”
Rassinier is much easier to research:
“With regard to gas chambers, the almost endless procession of false witnesses and of falsified documents to which I have invited the reader’s attention during this long study, proves, nevertheless, only one thing: never at any moment did the responsible authorities of the Third Reich intend to order- or in fact, order – the extermination of the Jews in this or any other manner. Did such exterminations take place without orders? This question has haunted me for fifteen years.”
From his 1964 article, The Drama of the European Jews, page 270.
882 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm
@kingoflondon (880): I would not call it murder as one would generally consider it as measures were taken to lower the death toll in the camps, which was ordered by Himmler himself.
Also, the Zyclon-B was used to disinfect clothing to kill lice.
Basically, the Nazis were trying to stop typhus. The allied army aggression contributed to starvation and lack of supplies so we could actually say it’s indirectly the fault of the British, USSR, and Americans that many Jews died.
Of course the Jews were mistreated – forced labor is nothing I wish upon anyone and I condemn it and whoever practices it, including the Nazis.
However, this was the 30′s and 40′s and it was war – there were horrific practices on both sides of the war.
883 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm
@Shannon (881):
Lol, none of that proves I’m a “skinhead, kkk, white supremacist, Hitler loving, neo-Nazi, Holocaust denier”
Do you know what any of that MEANS?
The whole point of CODOH is, yes, Holocaust debate.
Why the hell else would I link you to it? We’re debating the Holocaust so, yes, I link a Holocaust debate website.
And yes, it’s illegal to THINK that the Holocaust is exaggerated in France, Austria, and Germany.
You can get put in jail for an OPINION, Shannon.
Do you think that’s morally right?
Shannon, I see you have no trouble viewing the forum – do you have trouble posting there? Are you afraid? Are you afraid the ‘evil Nazi racist KKK Hitler-sucking deniers’ will spank you like a baby in debate?
Are you afraid to show your friends as they too will be destroyed, claim after claim, until they’ve been forced to admit that their beliefs are no more logical than the belief in Santa or the Easter bunny?
Or are you not afraid and you’re posting at this exact moment?
884 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:30 pm
By the way, CODOH is not a “Denier site” – anyone can join.
Your religion, race, personal beliefs, family history, or prejudices don’t matter. If you act civilized and respectful you will not be banned.
The only reason that there are a lot of “Deniers” is because they defeat believer after believer in debate and that others are too cowardly to post.
Shannon, are you going to be one of them?
885 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Hey, Lampy, I’m curious . . . when you flip your mask up on your hood sheet, how do you keep it from slipping off your skinned head, you anti-Semitic gutless piece of Nazi shit?
Ah, and it’s impossible to debate with zealots like Holocaust Deniers because they’ll do anything to keep alive their dream of goosestepping across the world just like their defeated Nazi forebears
LOL and Seig Heil, Bitch!
886 Bella
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:35 pm
*sigh* Some people just come here to put others down. Quite rude, really.
887 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:45 pm
@Shannon (886):
I’m sorry Shannon, where in your post did you give proof to support your allegations?
Oh, I see, just pusillanimity.
Run along now, with your tail between your legs, Shannon.
Run like the timid deluder you are!
It’s sad such hateful people exist, Shannon, if people like you didn’t exist we wouldn’t have genocides.
That’s quite a bad excuse Shannon. It’s not impossible to debate “Deniers” – it’s just impossible for you to since you can’t debate, you can only insult.
You’re a sad, sad person Shannon.
I will personally find a psychologist for you, you need mental help quick!
Why not show your “pro” friends the website and tell them to debate if you’re too much of a pussy to do it.
888 Brian
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:48 pm
“Hitler was a monster.. “he was evil incarate..” fo r gods sake, he`s nothing exceptionl. he`s meant to have killed jews? AND? thats no big deal. he had the kind of mindset, that a medieval monarch had except it was in the 20th century. in England, when there was a fam ine, or any other kind of disaster, We`d say, “It`s the bastard jews again,” and we`d kill them. And nobody gave a monkeys. in 500 years from now, he`ll be seen as a great leader, who fought and killed fanatics. he`S only seen as a evil tyrant because we won the war. if situation had been the other way around, WE`D have been the war criminal. these people, who go on and on, about, how “we survived auswitz it was awful..” They should just give it a rest. don`t they think people are sick of hearing this crap?
889 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Oh, Lampy, I haven’t even started getting creative with the insults yet, lol, and as for running along, it’ll be a cold day in hell when I “run along” from the likes of a bullshit artist like you.
You know Lampy, you got folks like you and Brian and the real true sad part is, the only way people (and I use the term loosely) like y’all can exist is because of some abnormality of birth. I guess I’ve been too hard on y’all since it’s obvious that the only way y’all became such goosestepping, swastika waving skinheaded Nazi dipshits is you must have been RAISED by a similar bunch of goosestepping, swastika waving skinheaded Nazi dipshits.
It’s really true what they say that the apples don’t fall far from the tree.
You might see things differently had you or some member of your family been gang-raped then murdered by state sponsored thugs in SS uniforms. Of course, where you stand, that might be construed as an improvement in the bloodline.
Oh, and about that website, do you like, get “credit” for mentioning it in every post? I mean, by now, shouldn’t you be up to the Deluxe Set of Sturm und Drang steak knives with the genuine mother of pearl handles with the SS on one side and the Swastika on the other?
Seig Heil, Pussy-Bitch!
890 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:06 pm
@Shannon (890):
Now you’re stepping away from insulting and accusing me, but my parents!
Not only have you never met me, you haven’t met them either. You know nothing about either of us, Shannon.
No, Shannon, I don’t get credit from mentioning it – do you get “Credit” for every lame excuse you give to hide the fact that you have absolutely no proof to support the allegations that 5-6 million Jews died, many were gassed, and the Nazi officials ordered it?
Is it 5 points every time you ignore proof against your exterminationist belief? What’s your score, 50 thousand?
Shannon, how am I the “Pussy-Bitch”?
Have I cowardly ignored any arguments or challenges you gave?
Have I not welcomed debate with you? You can make a post on the forum, if you please, and write that you only want me to post. They will probably allow that.
Shannon, why are you so full of hate?
Please answer that simple, simple question.
It’s not healthy to hate people you know nothing about.
891 The Righteous one
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:21 pm
@Disciple (331): I have tried fasting and it has not worked. Now all I am is hungry and horny. I feel I am condemned to always be gay. And hell awaits me.
892 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:41 pm
@Lamprecht (891):
Eh, it’s a gift I have, but don’t feel bad. I hate a lot of people I know very well.
As for you, I know all I need to know about you, Lampy, and I can sum it up in a quote from Stuart Chase, who as far as I know, had no opinion whatsoever on the Holocaust:
“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don`t believe, no proof is possible.”
Now, please just go on back to your little mutual admiration society of sheet wearers and swastika wavers because I am done wasting my time with you. I just hope something terrible happens to you soon.
So, for the last time: Seig Heil, Pussy-Bitch!
893 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
@The Righteous one (892): You’re just awkward at this point man.
894 meh
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:00 pm
10. Palestinians are clearly the lesser evil here
9. keep your sexual life in your bedroom like all decent folk and all is well. gay pride parades should be massacred to save the gene pool from hereditary mental illnesses
8. clearly a mythic figure, but no doubt was based on somebody who really existed once
7. of course i would have to be a complete retard if i were to judge indiviuals based solely on what they look like. but crap like affirmative action has got to stop. if two different coloured people want to start a family, i have no problem, but when the government is actually forcing this to occur within a nation.. it’s bad for genes and breeds a catch 22 of conflicts. we don’t want to end up like the south park depiction of americans from year 3000
6. dead fetuses lolol. ahem.. actually, of course i’m for abortions. people, wake up you idiots! save the lives that are actually BORN, like the homeless, helpless, orphaned, not womb tumours
5. it gives people responsibility and security. if someone decides to murder somebody, then you can’t really blame the gun, can you? because that person was probably going to murder the other anyway
4. it happened, no doubt, but i have no doubt that some numbers are highly exaggerated or forged by jews who want influence and demand revenge
3. “no matter who you vote for, you still vote for us” – Joseph Stalin. your best bet is to actively work against it. you must never give more power to those who have plenty
2. creationism, more like cretinism amirite? by the way you escapist fundamentalist christian deniers-of-fact-and-proof, darwin never said humans came from monkeys, or even apes for that matter. he explained that we have the same roots, that date back millions of years
1. don’t rely on things you can never prove. it may be your right to delude yourself, or hide away in the closet of fairytale, ignorance, and force-fed moralities, but the fact that it’s a right doesn’t make it less wrong than anything else that corrupts humanity
895 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
@Lamprecht (891): Shannon, how am I the “Pussy-Bitch”?
It is genetic breakthrough involving combining a dog with a cat. The hope was that it would be a loyal pet capable of climbing trees, swimming, stalking birds, has a keen sense of smell, and acute hearing. Instead it is lazy, wants to go for walks at four in the morning, drags in dead rodents and leaves them on the carpet, has worms, barks at the neighbors, scratches you if you try to pet it, and, in an odd twist off fate, will only poop in a litter-box, but only while it is on walks. Have fun.
No, all joking aside, you are a pussy-bitch.
896 Brian
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
When we ever admit, that Hitler WAS misunderstood? so he started a war. what country hasn`t? he`s supposed to have commited genocide. what c ountry hasn`t? he men t have put jews in con centration camps. WE DID, on Cyprus. And suppose he did waste Jews? jews=israel. the same Israel who murder and kill babies. THAT Israel. Yeah-of course Hitler was evil! geez..
897 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:06 pm
@meh (895): Ass
@Brian (897): Hole
898 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:16 pm
@Shannon (893): Stuart Chase is only 1/2 correct.
Those who believe the Holocaust as claimed by mainstream historians do not require proof – obviously because if they did, they woul dno longer believe it.
For those that don’t believe it – me specifically, if it DID happen as claimed, and someone proved it, I would believe it.
Too bad nobody has proven it, I have given you various chances and a forum is dedicated to the discussion.
Remember, Shannon, everyone that doesn’t believe the standard Holocaust story had to change their mind at some point in time. I used to believe it.
Here’s an interesting quote, Shannon:
“These Holocaust deniers are very slick people.
They justify everything they say with facts and figures.”
-Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education
Shannon, you’re a sad, sad person. You hate people because they felt like reading a bit about history and forming a conclusion that differs from most people.
You truly are a disgusting human being.
I am not a racist, neo-Nazi, anti-semite, skinhead, KKK member, or anything else you have claimed. Not one of your assertions has been supported by facts.
You are a liar and a coward – you can’t refute an argument so you try to discredit by calling someone a “Racist” or something like that, as if that word means anything today.
You’re done? Gave up already?
Ha!
You’re a weak minded poltroon.
899 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
@ianz09 (896): No, all joking aside, you are a pussy-bitch.
Are you illiterate?
HOW am I a “Pussy-Bitch” ianz09?
Have I run from a challenge? Have I ignored debate?
No, I welcomed it.
Debate me. As I’ve said, bring your friends, family, anyone you want.
Or are you a lying coward like Shannon over here?
Do you hate people only because of their historical beliefs?
900 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:25 pm
@Lamprecht (900): Ooohh, goody! I hoped against hope you be like this!
Tell ya what, you are a dipshit butt-licking man-whore. Everything you have said is a lie, and your parents do not love you. The sun become a minute bit birghter were you to accidently drive off a bridge, and from the way you write, I’m assuming you smell like ass.
GiantFlyingRobo, if you are out there, we have a winner.
Oh and Lamprecht? You are a pussy-bitch, and yes, I am illiterate. Stick that in your mouth and suck it.
901 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:29 pm
@Lamprecht (900): Also, serious question, how do you walk with such a jagged stick crammed so far up your ass? Is it removable?
902 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:47 pm
@ianz09 (901 & 902):
I’m still waiting for you to support your silly allegations.
I don’t have a stick up my ass, ianz09.
Serious questions:
- Why are you so intolerant of people with differing opinions?
- Why are you so hostile towards me?
- Why do you hate people that believe the standard Holocaust story is exaggerated?
- Why do you refuse to debate the Holocaust?
- Shannon said you were a “Pro” – why don’t you go be a “pro” and prove your version of the Holocaust here?
- Why are you afraid, ianz09?
Again, ianz09, since you can’t seem to understand simple English:
HOW am I a “Pussy bitch”?
Do you not know what “How” means?
903 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
@Lamprecht (903):
I’m still waiting for you to remove the stick from your ass. I recommend a gentle twisting mtion whilst pulling, and I’m assuming you already have vaseline.
- Why do you videotape yourself having sex with horses?
- Why do you watch little boys swim at the public pool?
- Why do you smell like fish tacos, beer, and sadness?
- Why come ain’t you talk as a normal people?
I’m a pro? Well I’m flattered, and if you would be so kind as to wade through the earlier comments, you may witness this. However, everyone I agree with has said it better than I, so I see no point in arguing. But, for argument’s sake, I present my case.
I didn’t answer the how, I simply defined what a pussy-bitch was, in an obviously too complex fashion, with the intention of humor. Why did I quote your comment, then? So you would know what I was referring to, instead of having no clue. I wasn’t answering the question. He hits the ball, way out to the outfield, and OH! It is over Lamprecht’s head.
By the way, look out back, you may notice your goat is missing. I currently have it. I know what ‘how’ means, the question is, do you know what pickleweasel means? Clock’s ticking.
904 archiealt
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:07 pm
@Shannon (893):
Congrats, you must be the first person ever to come out of a discussion with somebody who denies the Holocaust, looking like the bigger twat, very impressive.
@archangel (854):
You.
905 ava
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:09 pm
@Lamprecht (842):
this is the idiocy of these people, no one here is a holocaust denier…certain people are just questioning certain aspects of the holocaust because the Jews are prone to exaggerate in their favour everytime…and that exaggeration has gotten out of hand and become so called fact…yet all the verbal violence and personal attacks came first from the so called…desperate to be correct mob…they rake up every moronic theory as to why people question aspects of the holocaust…yet simply cannot fathom that some may just see it differently….they then become so infuriated and controlling that they lash out with abuse first, then rage, then arrogance, then posts that rave on…and you know that they have simply missed the simple point of ones post and have instead turned it into something ugly because their own beliefs have been questioned…how that incites the hate in them…and they know their weak, but to gain control and feel better again, they must force their opinion onto those holocaust deniers….lol….pathetic…
906 astraya
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Wow! Someone just used the word “poltroon”. This discussion is getting eruditer.
907 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:41 pm
@ianz09 (904):
Another magnificent post by ianz without the name of one Jew, with proof, that was killed in a homicidal Nazi gas chamber.
You obviously see no point in arguing because you know you can’t.
But good excuse, you present it better than Shannon does.
Since you know what “How” means, why don’t you actually try to answer my simple question.
Or the various other questions I asked.
Why do you dodge them all, ianz09?
Are questions too hard for you to answer?
Pickleweasel isn’t a word, do not change the subject though.
I presented a few questions, I expect an answer.
908 Randall
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:47 pm
@Lamprecht (841):
This BEGINS to say it more eloquently than I could in such a limited space, asshole. I wonder if YOU have the courage to read it or to even heed it for a moment.
A Convergence of Evidence: The Key to Historical Proof
Within all of these fallacies of thinking about both evolution and the Holocaust, there is an assumption by the creationists and the revisionists that if they can just find one tiny crack in the structure the entire edifice will come tumbling down. This is the fundamental flaw in their reasoning. The Holocaust is not a single event. The Holocaust was 10,000 events in 10,000 places, and is proved by 10,000 bits of data that converge on one conclusion. Neither evolution nor the Holocaust can be disproved by minor errors or inconsistencies here and there, for the simple reason that they were never proved by these lone bits of data in the first place. To understand why, we must consider the nature of proof in the science of history. How do we know anything happened in the past?
In 1840 the English philosopher of science, William Whewell, published his classic work on The Philosophy of the Inductive Sciences, in which he talked at length about inductions, or generalizations drawn from specific facts. But to prove a theory one must have more than just one generalization. And these multiple inductions must all point to a definite conclusion, building upon one another independently but in conjunction. Whewell said of these inductions that they “jumped together” to establish the veracity of a theory. A fond coiner of words (e.g., “scientist”), Whewell called this method of thinking a consilience of inductions. “Accordingly the cases in which inductions from classes of facts altogether different have thus jumped together, belong only to the best established theories which the history of science contains. And, as I shall have occasion to refer to this particular feature in their evidence, I will take the liberty of describing it by a particular phrase; and will term it the Consilience of Inductions” (p. 230).
A less cumbersome phrase might be a convergence of evidence. Evolution, for example, is proved by the convergence of evidence from geology, paleontology, botany, zoology, herpetology, entomology, biogeography, anatomy, physiology, and comparative anatomy. No one piece of evidence from these diverse fields says “evolution” on it. A fossil is a snapshot. But a fossil in a geological bed, with other fossils of the same and different species, compared to species in lower strata and upper strata, contrasted to modern similar organisms, juxtaposed with species in other parts of the world, past and present, and so on, turn that snapshot into a motion picture. Each set of inductions from each field jumps together to a grand conclusion–evolution. This is how narrative history becomes scientific history.
The process is no different in proving the Holocaust. How do we know about the Holocaust? We have:
1. Written documents–hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.
2. Eyewitness testimony–accounts from survivors, Kapos, Sonderkommandos, SS guards, commandants, local townspeople, and even upper-echelon Nazis who did not deny the Holocaust.
3. Photographs–official military and press photographs, civilian photographs, secret photographs taken by survivors, aerial photographs, German and Allied film footage, etc.
4. The camps themselves–many concentration camps, work camps, and death camps are still extant in varying degrees of originality and reconstruction.
5. Negative evidence–if five to six million Jews were not killed, where did all those people go?
A Case Study in Convergence
Let us examine how this works as a case study in history as a science. We have an eyewitness account by a survivor who says he heard about gassing Jews while he was at Auschwitz. The revisionist says that survivors exaggerate and that their memories are unsound. Another survivor tells another story different in details but with the core similarity that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. The revisionist claims that rumors were floating throughout the camps and many survivors incorporated them into their memories. An SS guard confesses after the war that he actually saw people being gassed and cremated. The revisionist claims that these confessions were forced out of the Nazis by the Allies. But now a Sonderkommando–a Jew who helped the Nazis load dead bodies out of the gas chambers and into the crematoria–says he not only heard about it, and not only saw it happening, he actually participated in the process. The revisionist explains this away by saying that the Sonderkommando accounts make no sense– their figures of numbers of bodies are exaggerated and their dates are incorrect. What about the camp commandant, who confessed after the war that he not only heard, saw, and participated in the process, but that he orchestrated it!? He was tortured, says the revisionist. But what about his autobiography written after his trial, conviction, and sentencing to death, when he had nothing to gain by lying? No one knows why people confess to ridiculous crimes, explains the revisionist, but they do.
No single testimony says “Holocaust” on it. But taking many together the story begins to unfold. And now the revisionist’s defense is beginning to unravel. Instead of the historian having to present “just one proof,” the revisionist must now disprove five pieces of historical data, with five different methods of disproof. But there is more. We have the blueprints for both the gas chambers and the crematoria–huge structures built for processing large numbers of bodies. Those were used strictly for delousing, claims the revisionist, and thanks to the Allies’ war against Germany, the Germans were never given the opportunity to deport the Jews to their own homeland, and instead had to put them into overcrowded camps where disease and lice were rampant. What about the huge orders of Zyklon-B gas? It was strictly used for delousing all those diseased inmates. What about those speeches by Hitler, Himmler, Frank, and Goebbels talking about the “extermination” of the Jews? Oh, they really meant “rooting out,” as in deporting them out of the Reich. What about Eichmann’s confession at his trial? He was coerced. Hasn’t the German government confessed that the Nazis attempted to exterminate European Jewry? Yes, but they lied so they could rejoin the family of nations.
Now the revisionist must rationalize no less than 14 different bits of evidence that “jump together” to a specific conclusion. But our convergence continues. If six million Jews did not die, where did they go? They are in Russia, and America, and Israel, and scattered throughout the world. But why can’t they find each other? They do– haven’t you heard the occasional stories of long-lost siblings making contact with each other after many decades? What about those photos and newsreels of the liberation of the camps with all those dead bodies and starving/dying inmates? Those people were well taken care of until the end of the war when the Allies were mercilessly bombing German cities, factories, and supply lines that were feeding those camps–the Nazis tried valiantly to save their prisoners but the combined strength of the Allies was too much. But what about all those accounts by prisoners of the brutality of the Nazis–the random shootings and beatings, the deplorable conditions, the freezing temperatures, the overwork, etc.? This is war. The Americans put Japanese in camps. The Japanese imprisoned Chinese. The Russians tortured Poles and Germans. War is hell. The Nazis are no different from anyone else.
Post Hoc Rationalization. We are now up to 18 proofs all converging toward one conclusion. The revisionist is desperately swinging away at them all, steadfastly determined not to give up his belief system. He is relying on what might be called post hoc rationalization–an after-the- fact reasoning to justify contrary evidence. In addition, the revisionist then shifts the burden of disproving all this evidence to the historian by mistakenly demanding that each one of these pieces of evidence independently prove the Holocaust.
909 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:48 pm
@ava (906):
“certain people are just questioning certain aspects of the holocaust because the Jews are prone to exaggerate in their favour everytime”
Ava, it’s not that Jews are prone to exaggeration, it’s that Jews are human just like every other human. Anti-”Deniers” insist that Holocaust “Deniers” or revisionists claim that Jews are a lying bunch that want to falsely claim crimes against themselves for various reasons.
They think that the evil skinhead deniers are claiming that Jews are liars, distorters, and exaggerators who wish to push their own agenda and dehumanize everyone else in the process.
This is not so – I myself am pointing out that Jews are not the only indentifiable group of humans who don’t lie, construe, or exaggerate claims.
But some people refuse to believe that – Jews, to them, cannot lie, construe, or exaggerate – but everyone else can!
Because this belief is so hurtful to the Jewish community – almost always indirectly – it has become illegal in Canada, Australia, and various European countries.
Revisionists are not claiming Jews are lying dogs, they’re just claiming that they are humans too!
910 Randall
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:49 pm
@Lamprecht (908):
How do we know the Nazis used gas chambers to kill Jews en masse? The same way we prove the Holocaust in general–a convergence of evidence from various sources:
1. Written documents–Orders for Zyklon-B gas, blueprints and orders for building materials for the crematoria, etc.
2. Eyewitness testimony–Sonderkommando diaries, confessions of guards and commandants, etc.
3. Photographs–Not only of the camps, but especially interesting are the secret photos taken of the burning of bodies that were smuggled out of Auschwitz.
4. The camps themselves–forensic tests have now been conducted demonstrating the homicidal use of both the gas chambers and the crematoria for the express purpose of exterminating large numbers of prisoners (Pressac, 1989; Pressac and Van Pelt, 1994).
5. Negative evidence–we have documentation of the numbers of prisoners shipped to the various camps, the numbers that were transferred, and the number liberated. The difference between the latter with the former two figures gives an approximation of the numbers who died or were killed (see Hilberg, 1961).
Once these historical data have been linked together the burden of proof is on the revisionists to disentangle them, both individually and as a whole.
To corroborate these photos we have eyewitness accounts. Judith Berg, the survivor who spent seven months in Auschwitz and who appeared with me on Donahue, confirmed the mass burning of bodies. Edith Gleick, also on the show, gave me a verbal description of the sorting and separation process that happened at the Auschwitz train platform that very nicely matches the photos of the Hungarian Jews presented above. And we have thousands of accounts like these.
Revisionists will ask how I can believe Berg after her claim about seeing them make soap out of human bodies. My answer is twofold: (1) we do not accept eyewitness accounts by themselves as proof of the Holocaust or gas chamber story, without corroboration from other eyewitnesses as well as physical evidence; (2) in this particular case, Berg was enraged at Bradley Smith for denying what she knows happened to her own family members and friends, and struck out at him with this statement when he also challenged the soap story. Despite the differences in specifics of accounts, there is a core of truth at their center, and the gassing and cremating of prisoners is one of the most important cores.
And, of course, we do not just have survivor accounts. We also have the confessions of guards, like SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, captured on May 6, 1945, by the British in their zone of occupation. Broad began work at Auschwitz in 1942 in the “Political Section,” and stayed there until the liberation of the camp in January, 1945. During his capture he worked as an interpreter for the British and in the process wrote a memoir, which was passed on to the British Intelligence Service in July, 1945. That December he declared under oath that what he wrote was true. On September 29, 1947, the document was translated into English and used at the Nuremberg Trials regarding the gas chambers as mechanisms of mass murder. Later that year he was released. In April, 1959, Broad was called to testify in a trial on the SS of Auschwitz, and he acknowledged the authorship of the memoir, confirmed its validity, and retracted nothing.
The reason for this lengthy background to Broad’s memoir is that the revisionists dismiss all Nazi confessions as being coerced, or made up for bizarre psychological reasons. Broad was never tortured and he had absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by confessing. When given the opportunity to recant, which he certainly could have in the later trial, he did not. Instead, he described in detail the gassing procedure, including the use of Zyklon-B, the early gassing experiments in Block 11 of Auschwitz, the temporary chambers set up in the two abandoned farms at Birkenau (Auschwitz II), which he correctly called by their jargon name of “Bunkers I and II.” He also recalled the construction of Kremas I, II, III, and IV at Birkenau, accurately depicting (by comparison with blueprints) the design of the undressing room, gas chamber, and crematorium. And then he described the actual process of gassing in gruesome detail (Shapiro, 1990):
The disinfectors are at work . . . with an iron rod and hammer they open a couple of harmless looking tin boxes, the directions read Cyclon [sic] vermin destroyer, Warning, Poisonous. The boxes are filled with small pellets which look like blue peas. As soon as the box is opened the contents are shaken out through an aperture in the roof. Then another box is emptied in the next aperture, and so on. After about two minutes the shrieks die down and change to a low moaning. Most of the men have already lost consciousness. After a further two minutes . . . it is all over. Deadly quiet reigns. . . . The corpses are piled together, their mouths stretched open . . . . It is difficult to heave the interlaced corpses out of the chamber as the gas is stiffening all their limbs.
Revisionists point out that Broad’s four minutes for the total process is at odds with the statements of others such as the commandant Hoess, who claim it was more like 20 minutes. Because of these minor discrepancies, revisionists dismiss the account entirely (Cole, 1994). But this is an inappropriate use of historical data. A dozen different accounts give a dozen different figures for time of death by gassing. Does the fact that their times are not perfectly matched mean that people were not actually gassed at all? Of course not. In fact, the gassing process would take different lengths of time due to any number of conditions, including the temperature (Zyklon-B dispersal depends on the air temperature), number of people in the room, the size of the room, and the amount of gas poured into the room; not to mention the psychological differences in time perception by different observers. If the estimation of times were exactly the same, in fact, we would have to be suspicious that they were all taking their story from a single account.
Revisionists make a similar argument about the confession of SS- Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz from May 20, 1940 to November 11, 1943. Hoess made his statement on April 5, 1946, completely unaware of Pery Broad’s memoir (and vice versa). Further, the Nuremberg Tribunal, when trying Hoess, were also unaware of the Broad document. This is important because even if revisionists completely discount the Hoess testimony, which they do (Cole, 1994, Weber, 1994b), they still have the problem of explaining why the two accounts coincide so well. Hoess talks about the temporary gassing experiments at Auschwitz I, the two “Bunkers” at Birkenau, the construction of the four large structures at Birkenau that included undressing rooms, gas chambers, and crematoria, just like Broad.
Further, after Hoess was found guilty and sentenced to death, he wrote a 250-page autobiographical manuscript that corroborates both his previous testimony and Broad’s statement. On the gassing procedure, for example, compare Hoess’s account with Broad’s above (Hoess, 1959, p. 166):
Then, very quickly, the door was hermetically sealed, and a can of gas was immediately thrown onto the floor, through an opening connected to an air duct in the ceiling of the gas chamber, by the disinfectors, who were standing ready. This led to the immediate release of the gas. Through the peephole one could see that those who were near the air duct died immediately. It can be said that about a third died within a moment’s notice. The others began to struggle, to scream, to choke. But very quickly the cries became death rattles, and, after a few minutes, all were on the ground. After a maximum of twenty minutes, nobody moved.
Broad and Hoess never saw each other before Hoess’s capture on March 11, 1946 (10 months after Broad). But even if one wanted to fantasize a secret meeting between the two before Broad was captured, why would they confabulate a story that would surely convict them? There is no way to rationalize this convergence of evidence. (See Klarsfeld, 1978, for details on these and many other eyewitness accounts, as well as Teresa Swiebocka’s Auschwitz: A History in Photographs.)
As for David Cole’s research on the gas chambers, among his “38 Most Important Unanswered Questions” (unpublished manuscript) are, with answers:
At Mauthausen, the gas chamber has no locks on the doors, no holes or fittings where locks may once have been. The doors can be opened from inside or outside. How could you kill people in here? Wouldn’t they storm the door and push it open?
According to the newly published Nazi Mass Murder (Kogon, et al, 1993), this gas chamber was in the cellar of a prison bunker, near the crematoria, with no windows and two doors that “could be hermetically sealed.” Gas was piped in from an adjacent room called the gas cell through an enameled pipe “which had a slot in it about a meter long on the side nearest the wall (in other words, on the side invisible from the room). The remains of this gassing facility can still be seen today” (p. 177). If the doors can be hermetically sealed they can also be locked.
Cole also filmed at Majdanek:
Gas chamber 1 has two doors, both of which open in. Wouldn’t the bodies be pressed up against the doors as described by eyewitnesses? And it has no locks either. There are no holes or fittings where a lock might have been. Also, it has a plate glass window with no holes or fittings around the window where bars or any other kind of cover might once have been. In gas chamber 2, there is a Zyklon-B induction hole in the ceiling, but no Zyklon-B traces or blue stains; in gas chamber 3 there is heavy floor-to-ceiling Zyklon-B traces and stains, but no induction holes, or signs of holes having ever been there. Also, the door latches from the inside and outside, and the hemispherical grids on the doors to chambers 2, 3, and 4 are attached to the peepholes on the outside of the doors. What would prevent the victims from breaking the glass?
Kogon, et al, admit that “records concerning these facilities were either not made in a systematic way or have not been preserved.” But they do explain that in the beginning at Majdanek “two gas chambers were installed in a wooden barrack, then a brick building was put into service. The two temporary chambers were later used as drying rooms.” Plans from the Berlin firm, Auert, still exist for “the iron doors with their rubber packing [that] could be securely bolted.” If Cole was observing the original wooden barracks, they were obviously modified later for different use, which could explain the window and lack of locks. As for the other chambers, carbon monoxide was also used, which might account for the lack of Zyklon-B traces and blue stains in chamber 2. According to the court documents, Zyklon-B was “emptied directly into the chambers through funnels set into the ceiling, or else by the machines that produced the hot air necessary to release the gas, especially when the weather was cold” (p. 175). This could explain the traces and staining in chamber 3 that has no induction hole–the gas was not introduced through the ceiling.
Cole has many other points that will be addressed in a book-length version of this essay. Cole’s fallacy of thinking in general, however, is to assume that the gas chamber account rests on these details alone. It does not. Kogon, et al, for example, include dozens of eyewitness accounts that reinforce the physical evidence for each of the camps. When one has overwhelming evidence from many different sources about mass homicides at a death camp, one may not notice what kind of door handle is on one gas chamber. Unless, of course, one goes there in search of problems in order to support a particular thesis, which is what I believe Cole has done–consciously or unconsciously.
As for the crematoria, Pressac’s new work on the subject has been condensed and edited by Robert-Jan Van Pelt and Michael Berenbaum into a chapter for a soon-to-be released book on the Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp (1994). What is most striking about Pressac’s work is the documentation of the evolutionary process of improving the crematoria, and all the problems the Nazis had along the way. Failures were far more common than successes. The Nazis, however, were a tenacious bunch and they worked diligently to make improvements. In 1939 the crematoria at Dachau could only handle two corpses an hour. An improved version later that year increased it to 70 per day at Auschwitz, before they were even conducting mass murders. By 1941, Auschwitz had five furnaces of three crucibles each, linked to a common smokestack. This works out, theoretically, to 1,440 bodies per 24 hour period, or 532,000 per year. The capability of the crematoria to dispose of over a million bodies at Auschwitz in the course of several years was certainly there. The realities of the process, however, which takes quite a toll on the machinery, were quite another thing. In short, the Nazis had a terrible time disposing of the bodies they were gassing. The crematoria were constantly breaking down. This is why we have so many reports (and a photograph) of the mass burnings of bodies in open pits and fields–yet another convergence of evidence.
911 Randall
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Lamprecht:
Holocaust Denial: Truth or Hoax?
One Survivor’s Testimony
by William Samelson, Ph.D.
Visiting Professor, Trinity University
The Holocaust is an irrefutable fact. As a survivor of several labor and concentration camps, and as one whose entire family, save my elder brother, was murdered by Nazi thugs, I sincerely wish it had not occurred. It is also irrefutable that I am still here – a reminder of those barbaric acts perpetrated not so long ago on the European Jews by an ostensibly civilized German nation. Law-abiding, ordinary citizens of the Third Reich turned fanatical, implementing their beloved Führer’s agenda of murder and destruction. They became killers for him and we became the survivors of his madness. We were not expected to remain alive and give testimony to their crimes against humanity. Alas, it can not be denied that I survived this disaster: the most horrendous calamity of the twentieth century. I am here, alive. I represent the tragic truth. It is my belief that I was spared for this purpose. It is now my moral responsibility to bear witness for as long as I shall live, for I am the truth and will not be silenced by lies. To deny the truth, the awful facts of the Holocaust, is simply to lie.
The evidence, of course, is overwhelming. The countless photographs (most of them taken by Nazi SS and military personnel), testimonies of survivors, and Allied liberators as well as from Nazi documentation media and their war-time propaganda films all prove that this mass Judeocide took place. Yet, there are a number of people that claim it was all nothing more than a hoax. These deniers call themselves “revisionist historians.” Their express purpose is to alter documented historical fact. In the process, they turn scholarship into mockery, transforming truth into a make-believe fantasy spawned from unmitigated cynicism. They use the resulting misinformation to spread their anti-Jewish beliefs to the general public. Moreover, their theories, derived from blatant fabrication of data, misquotations, and quotations used out of context, are presented under the deceptive mask of scholarship and are made available to the world by way of the Internet, radio, and television. Although only relatively few fringe groups, propagandists, and pseudo-scholars embrace Holocaust denial, their activity is increasing and the potential for their influence to grow is evident. Therefore, it is incumbent upon all Holocaust survivors, historians, and those sincere chroniclers of the Holocaust to inform the world of the truth before the peoples around the world potentially fall prey, over time, to collective amnesia and adopt a romantic mythical view of the past events.
In Mein Kampf (My Struggle), Adolf Hitler expressed his belief that “the great masses of people…more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a little one” (p. 231); and that the simplest ideas “should be repeated thousands of times” so people will remember them (p. 185). Essentially, Holocaust denial is one big, bold, lie. In an attempt to legitimize the Nazi regime, revive National Socialism, forward their theory of a Jewish-Zionist conspiracy and, evidently, justify their virulent anti-Judaism, deniers repeat this lie over and over. They hide their aims under such legitimate-sounding organizations as the “Institute for Historical Review” and the “Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust.” Some deniers have the audacity call themselves “scholars” or “historians.” Whichever way they chose to identify themselves, their intentions have nothing to do with the preservation of history but with its distortion.
The deniers’ basic belief is that the “myth” of the Holocaust is a way for “organized world Jewry” to gain sympathy and financial support for the Zionist cause and to render themselves immune from criticism. Furthermore, the deniers also claim that the Allies’ atrocities during the Second World War were just as bad, if not worse than the Nazis’ atrocities, and finally, that Hitler did not even want war and did not order the extermination of the Jews in Europe. These are main points of the deniers’ “big lie.”
Denying the fact that the Holocaust occurred makes about as much sense as claiming that the earth is flat. It was the meticulous Nazis themselves who produced a large portion of the documents now available to anyone who desires to peruse them. They all point to the deniers’ hypocrisy and make it plain that their claim to a “Holocaust hoax” is an unmitigated farce. Furthermore, contrary to the deniers’ assertions, Hitler was fully aware of and did, in fact, order the annihilation of the European Jews. The facts of the Holocaust are so well documented in serious scholarly accounts that denial of Hitler’s responsibility for the murder of the Jews is too preposterous to require refutation and argument. Hitler explicitly stated his murderous intentions in some of his speeches, as in the following:
Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe…
In fact, most serious historians also believe that the extermination of the Jews was Hitler’s most consistent policy, in whose execution he persisted relentlessly. Hitler’s compulsive-obsessive attitude in regard to the Jews may even have cost him his war. I can attest to the fact as one of the frequently “resettled” victims, that the Jewish transports of slave laborers and those destined for extermination in Hitler’s killing factories, were always given highest priority right of way on our journeys. This was done even at the expense of retarding the flow of vital transports of materiel and personnel to the Nazi front lines at a time when those were critically needed.
To this day, documents demanding the annihilation of the European Jews are being discovered in Russian archives. Hitler’s intentions, as outlined in his various speeches, written orders, and his Mein Kampf, were obvious. His obsession with war was also plain. Hitler raved incessantly about a “Holy War,” “preparing for war,” and a “plan for the next war” (pp. 658-660). After reading Hitler’s speeches and his book, it is impossible not to acknowledge his plans for Germany, for Europe, and the world. The deniers ignore these words or grossly misconstrue them in order to formulate their own fanciful fables.
Another tenet of the deniers’ philosophy is that there is a moral equivalence between the wartime actions of the Allies, which may have resulted in civilian deaths, such as the bombing of Dresden, and atrocities committed by the Nazis. It is similar to the comparison a few make between a legal execution and a murder during a robbery. One of the most prominent American “revisionist” historians, Harry Elmer Barnes claimed that:
…the atrocities of the Allies in the same period were more numerous as to victims and were carried out for the most part by methods more brutal and painful than alleged extermination in gas ovens …
Barnes failed to note the difference between war casualties and the mass murder of the millions of non-combatant people. The Jews of Europe never declared a fight against Hitler in his “Holy War,” although he vowed to annihilate them. War between armed military entities is not genocide, therefore Nazi atrocities are not comparable to the war action of the Allies. It is inappropriate to even compare the two. The deniers and the revisionists ignore the obvious distinctions between war and murder, Nazi pagan barbarism and Allied necessity.
Another revisionist claim, an obvious result of anti-Judaism, makes the assertion that the Jews’ primary concern regarding the Holocaust is the acquisition of money. According to the deniers, Jews use the “hoax” of the Holocaust in order to milk money from sympathizers for their homeland in Israel and to accomplish total domination of the financial world. For example, the infamous French “revisionist,” Paul Rassinier declared that:
…the aim of the Zionists is the gold of Fort Knox. If the plan should succeed – and all that is needed is for the American branch of international Zionism to get its hand on Wall Street – the Israeli home-port of the Diaspora would become the command post of all the world’s industry. Then at the very least, it could be said that the designation ‘Chosen People’ which the Jews claim for themselves, would assume its full significance.
This is pseudo-historical interpretation to ridiculous limits. Sparked by their innate hatred of Jews, deniers stereotype Jews as money-grabbers, dishonest businessmen, and avaricious bankers. Through this racist-revisionist theory, the deniers can not only write off the Holocaust as a “hoax”; they can use it as a means to justify their misinterpretation of Jewish intent. As a survivor of the Holocaust, I can not permit this injustice being wrought on the millions of innocent victims of Nazi assassins. Allowing this deception to flourish unabated would subject all those gentle, beloved people to suffer their deaths a thousandfold. Clearly, the deniers’ currency is counterfeit; mine is legitimate tender.
Their theories are proof positive that Holocaust deniers must be either incredibly ignorant or utterly unrealistic. But if Holocaust denial is so absurd, why should we bother to research its aims? I believe that in order to separate fact from fiction, it is important to learn about the fiction as well as the facts. As a survivor of the Holocaust, I have experienced the factual consequences of that tragic event at great losses to myself and my family. When I confront the deniers’ fictional interpretations of the Holocaust, I can distinguish between them accordingly. Needless to say, there is a large segment of the general public that does not have this advantage. This population will inevitably grow with ignorance, ingrained prejudice or plain naiveté. There will always exist people who will be susceptible to the propaganda generated by the deniers of the Holocaust.
Even in America, TV show and radio hosts, in their efforts to gain better ratings, try to convey “both sides of the story” by inviting both Holocaust survivors (or historians) and Holocaust deniers to explain themselves on their programs. The problem with this idea is that the Holocaust did happen. There is no “other side” to the issue. The very fact that the radio-TV host invites the denier to the show in order to debate the issues opposite a survivor or a bona-fide historian gives the deniers’ revisionist beliefs undeserved legitimacy and publicity.
Moreover, Holocaust denial has filtered through in other ways to an unsuspecting public. For instance, syndicated columnist Pat Buchanan, who twice ran for president, has made references to the so-called Holocaust “Survivor Syndrome” and claimed that it was “physically impossible for the gas chambers at Treblinka to have functioned as a killing apparatus.” Although Holocaust denial is an idea shared only by a few fringe groups, Jew-baiters, and propagandists, its theories have already taken root in American media and politics.
Historian Michael Sturmer asserts that “in a land without history, the future is controlled by those who determine the content of memory, who coin concepts and interpret the past.” Such an assertion is especially applicable to the Holocaust. As we, the survivors, become scarce, there will be fewer sources of primary information about the Holocaust in the world. Furthermore, the essence of truth vested with the authority of the eyewitness, will no longer prevail. They will no longer be able to impress future generations with the horrors of Nazi genocide. It is hard to conceive whether or not the Holocaust denial movement could further its influence. However, it is up to the vigilance of authentic historians and serious scholars to prevent its spread by educating the general public on how to separate fact from fiction and valid historical interpretation from the “revisionist” propaganda. We hope that future generations of discerning individuals will realize that the deniers’ diatribes are used not only to discredit the Holocaust victims, but also to tarnish the veracity of eyewitness accounts.
Moses Maimonides said it most succinctly in his brilliant treatise Guide of the Perplexed (xxxi, p. 41): “…A proposition which can be proved by evidence is not subject to dispute, denial or rejection; no one but the ignorant would contradict it, and such contradiction is called ‘denial of demonstrated proof.’ Facts are only doubted by those who ignore things fully proved.”
912 Randall
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Lamprecht:
1. What proof exists that the Nazis practiced genocide or deliberately killed six million Jews?
The IHR says (original, Samisdat, and revised versions combined):
None. The only evidence is the postwar testimony of individual “survivors.” This testimony is contradictory, and no “survivor” claims to have actually witnessed any gassing. There are no contemporaneous documents and no hard evidence whatsoever: no mounds of ashes, no crematoria capable of disposing of millions of corpses, no piles of clothes, no human soap, no lamp shades made of human skin, no records, no credible demographic statistics.
Nizkor replies:
Lie piled upon lie, with not a shred of proof.
This is as good a place as any to present some detailed evidence which is consistently ignored, as a sort of primer on Holocaust denial. It will make this reply much longer than the other sixty-five, but perhaps the reader will understand the necessity for this.
Let’s look at their claims one at a time:
# Supposedly the only evidence, “the postwar testimony of individual survivors.”
First of all, consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is automatically dismissed as unconvincing. This total dismissal of inmates’ testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the Nazis’ own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of Holocaust-denial.
This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war, they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say.
The conspirators also supposedly managed to torture hundreds of key Nazis into confessing to crimes which they never committed, or into framing their fellow Nazis for those crimes, and to plant hundreds of documents in Nazi files which were never discovered until after the war, and only then, in many cases, by sheer luck. Goebbels’ diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):
February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.
March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.
Michael Shermer has pointed out that the Nazis’ own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.)
In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting only to historians. Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels’ affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions, e.g. putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date?
As even the revisionist David Cole has admitted, revisionists have yet to provide a satisfactory explanation of this document.
Regarding postwar testimony from Nazis, were they all tortured into confessing to heinous crimes which they supposedly did not commit? This might be believable if only a few Nazis were captured after the war, or maybe if some had courageously stood up in court and shouted to the world about the supposed attempt to silence them. But hundreds testified regarding the Holocaust, in trials dating from late 1945 until the 1960s. (For example, see Böck, Hofmann, Hössler, Klein, Münch, and Stark.)
Many of these Nazis testified as witnesses and were not accused of crimes. What was the basis for their supposed coercion?
Many of these trials were in German courts. Did the Germans torture their own countrymen? Well, Holocaust-deniers sometimes claim that the Jews have secretly infiltrated the German government and control everything about it. They prefer not to talk too much about this theory, however, because it is clearly on the lunatic fringe.
The main point is that not one of these supposed torture victims — in fifty years, not one — has come forth to support the claim that testimony was coerced.
On the contrary, confirmation and reconfirmation of their testimony has continued across the years. What coercion could have convinced Judge Konrad Morgen to testify to the crimes he witnessed at the International Nuremberg Trial in 1946, where he was not accused of any crime? And to later testify at the Auschwitz trial at Frankfurt, Germany, in 1963-65? What coercion was applied to SS Doctor Johann Kremer to make him testify in his own defense in 1947, and then, after having been convicted in both Poland and Germany, emerge after his release to testify again as a witness at the Frankfurt trial? What coercion was applied to Böck, Gerhard Hess, Hölblinger, Storch, and Wiebeck, all former SS men, all witnesses at Frankfurt, none accused of any crime there?
Holocaust-deniers point to small discrepancies in testimonies to try to discredit them. The assumption, unstated, is that the reader will accept minor discrepancies as evidence of a vast, over-reaching Jewish conspiracy. This is clearly ludicrous.
In fact, the discrepancies and minor errors in detail argue against, not for, the conspiracy theory. Why would the conspirators have given different information to different Nazis? In fact, if all the testimonies, from the Nazis’ to the inmates’, sounded too similar, it is certain that the Holocaust-deniers would cite that as evidence of a conspiracy.
What supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Untersturmführer Dr. Hans Münch to give an interview, against the will of his family, on Swedish television? In the 1981 interview, he talked about Auschwitz:
Interviewer: Isn’t the ideology of extermination contrary to a doctor’s ethical values?
Münch: Yes, absolutely. There is no discussion. But I lived in that environment, and I tried in every possible way to avoid accepting it, but I had to live with it. What else could I have done? And I wasn’t confronted with it directly until the order came that I and my superior and another one had to take part in the exterminations since the camp’s doctors were overloaded and couldn’t cope with it.
Interviewer: I must ask something. Doubters claim that “special treatment” could mean anything. It didn’t have to be extermination.
Münch: “Special treatment” in the terminology of the concentration camp means physical extermination. If it was a question of more than a few people, where nothing else than gassing them was worthwhile, they were gassed.
Interviewer: “Special treatment” was gassing?
Münch: Yes, absolutely.
And what supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Unterscharführer Franz Suchomel into giving an interview for the film Shoah? Speaking under (false) promises of anonymity, he told of the crimes committed at the Treblinka death camp (from the book Shoah, Claude Lanzmann, 1985, p. 54):
Interviewer: You are a very important eyewitness, and you can explain what Treblinka was.
Suchomel: But don’t use my name.
Interviewer: No, I promised. All right, you’ve arrived at Treblinka.
Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camps from end to end. Just as we went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down on our suitcases and cried like old women.
Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves. In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot them. Every day!
Ask the deniers why they shrug off the testimony of Franz Suchomel. Greg Raven will tell you that “it is not evidence…bring me some evidence, please.” Others will tell you that Suchomel and Münch were crazy, or hallucinating, or fantasizing.
But the fantasy is obviously in the minds of those who choose to ignore the mass of evidence and believe instead in a hypothetical conspiracy, supported by nothing but their imaginations.
That total lack of evidence is why the “conspiracy assumption” almost always remains an unspoken assumption. To our knowledge, there has not been one single solitary “revisionist” paper, article, speech, pamphlet, book, audiotape, videotape, or newsletter which provides any details about this supposed Jewish/Zionist conspiracy which did all the dirty work. Not one.
At best, the denial literature makes veiled references to the World Jewish Congress perpetuating a “hoax” (in Butz, 1976) — no details are provided. Yet the entire case of Holocaust-denial rests on this supposed conspiracy.
As for the testimony of the survivors, which the “revisionists” claim is the only evidence, there are indeed numerous testimonies to gassings and other forms of atrocities, from Jewish inmates who survived the camps, and also from other inmates like POWs. Many of the prisoners that testified about the gassing are not Jewish, of course. Look for instance at the testimony of Polish officer Zenon Rozansky about the first homicidal gassing in Auschwitz, in which 850 Russian POWs were gassed to death, in Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 154:
Those who were propped against the door leant with a curious stiffness and then fell right at our feet, striking their faces hard against the concrete floor. Corpses! Corpses standing bolt upright and filling the entire corridor of the bunker, till they were packed so tight that it was impossible for more to fall.
Which of the “revisionists” will deny this? Which of them was there? Which of them has the authority to tell Rozansky what he did or did not see?
The statement that “no ‘survivor’ claims to have actually witnessed any gassing” is clearly false; this was changed to “few survivors” in later versions, which is close to the truth.
But we do not need to rely solely on testimony, from the survivors, Nazis, or otherwise. Many wartime documents, not postwar descriptions, specifically regarding gassings and other atrocities, were seized by the U.S. armed forces. Most are in the National Archives in Washington, D.C.; some are in Germany.
Regarding the gassing vans, precursors to the gas chambers, we find, for example, a top secret document from SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 999-1001):
If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. …
The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully.
And Just wrote of the gas vans to Rauff, on June 5, 1942, in a letter marked both “top secret” and “only copy”. This is a horrific masterpiece of Nazi double-talk, referring to killing as “processing” and the victims as “subjects” and “the load.” (See Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, pp. 228-235.)
Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles. …
The normal capacity of the vans is nine to ten per square meter. The capacity of the larger special Saurer vans is not so great. The problem is not one of overloading but of off-road maneuverability on all terrains, which is severely diminished in this van. It would appear that a reduction in the cargo area is necessary. This can be achieved by shortening the compartment by about one meter. The problem cannot be solved by merely reducing the number of subject treated, as has been done so far. For in this case a longer running time is required, as the empty space also needs to be filled with CO [the poison exhaust gas]. …
Greater protection is needed for the lighting system. The grille should cover the lamps high enough up to make it impossible to break the bulbs. It seems that these lamps are hardly ever turned on, so the users have suggested that they could be done away with. Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside, the load rushes toward what little light remains. This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness.
Slip-ups occurred in written correspondence regarding the gas chambers themselves, some of which, fortunately, escaped destruction and were found after the war. A memo written to SS man Karl Bischoff on November 27, 1942 describes the gas chamber in Krema II not with the usual mundane name of “Leichenkeller,” but rather as the “Sonderkeller” “special cellar.”
And two months later, on January 29, 1943, Bischoff wrote a memo to Kammler, referring to that same chamber as the “Vergasungskeller.” (See Gutman, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, 1994, pp. 223, 227.) “Vergasungskeller” means exactly what it sounds like: “gassing cellar,” an underground gas chamber.
Holocaust-deniers turn to Arthur Butz, who provides a specious explanation for the Vergasungskeller: “Vergasung,” he says, cannot refer to killing people with gas, but only to the process of converting a solid or liquid into gas. Therefore, he says the “Vergasungskeller,” must have been a special room where the fuel for the Auschwitz ovens was converted into gas — a “gasification cellar.”
There are three problems with this explanation. First, “Vergasung” certainly can refer to killing people with gas; Butz does not speak German and he should not try to lecture about the language. Second, there is no room that could possibly serve this function which Butz describes — years after writing his book, he admitted this, and helplessly suggested that there might be another building somewhere in the camp that might house a gasification cellar. Third, the type of oven used at Auschwitz did not require any gasification process! The ovens burned solid fuel. (See Gutman, op. cit., pp. 184-193.)
So what does the term “gassing cellar” refer to? Holocaust-deniers have yet to offer any believable explanation.
An inventory, again captured after the war, revealed fourteen showerheads and one gas-tight door listed for the gas chamber in Krema III. Holocaust-deniers claim that room was a morgue; they do not offer to explain what use a morgue has for showerheads and a gas-tight door. (See a photograph of the document, or Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.)
A memo from the Auschwitz construction office, dated March 31, 1943, says (Hilberg, Documents of Destruction, 1971, pp. 207-208):
We take this occasion to refer to another order of March 6, 1943, for the delivery of a gas door 100/192 for Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III, Bw 30a, which is to be built in the manner and according to the same measure as the cellar door of the opposite Krema II, with peep hole of double 8 millimeter glass encased in rubber. This order is to be viewed as especially urgent….
Why would morgues have urgently needed peepholes made out of a double layer of third-of-an-inch-thick glass?
The question of whether it can be proved that the cyanide gas was used in the Auschwitz gas chambers has intruiged the deniers. Their much-heralded Leuchter Report, for example, expends a great deal of effort on the question of whether traces of cyanide residue remain there today. But we do not need to look for chemical traces to confirm cyanide use (Gutman, op. cit., p. 229):
Letters and telegrams exchanged on February 11 and 12 [1943] between the Zentralbauleitung and Topf mention a wooden blower for Leichenkeller 1. This reference confirms the use of the morgue as a gas chamber: Bischoff and Prüfer thought that the extraction of air mixed with concentrated prussic acid [cyanide] (20 g per cu m) required a noncorroding ventilator.
Bischoff and Prüfer turned out to be wrong, and a metal fan ended up working acceptably well. But the fact that they thought it necessary demonstrates that cyanide was to be routinely used in the rooms which deniers call morgues. (Cyanide is useless for disinfecting morgues, as it does not kill bacteria.)
Other captured documents, even if they don’t refer directly to some part of the extermination process, refer to it by implication. A captured memo to SS-Brigadeführer Kammler reveals that the expected incineration capacity of the Auschwitz ovens was a combined total of 4,756 corpses per day (see a photograph of the document or Kogon, op. cit., p. 157).
Deniers often claim that this total could not be achieved in practice (see question 45). That’s not the point. These crematoria were carefully designed, in 1942, to have sufficient capacity to dispose of 140,000 corpses per month — in a camp that housed only 125,000. We can conclude that massive deaths were predicted, indeed planned-for, as early as mid-1942. A camp designed to incinerate its full capacity of inmates every four weeks is not merely a detention center.
Finally, apart from the abundant testimonies, confessions, and physical evidence of the extermination process, there is certainly no want of evidence of the Nazis’ intentions and plans.
Here are just a few examples. Hans Frank’s diary (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 992, 994):
But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the ‘Ostland’ [eastern territories], in [resettlement] villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother? We can do nothing with them either in the ‘Ostland’ nor in the ‘Reichkommissariat.’ So liquidate them yourself.
Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain the structure of the Reich as a whole. …
We cannot shoot or poison these 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation….
That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally.
Himmler’s speech at Posen on October 4, 1943 was captured on audiotape (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145, trans. by current author):
I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: “the Jewish people are being exterminated,” says every Party member, “quite true, it’s part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we’re doing it.”
The extermination effort was even mentioned in at least one official Nazi court verdict. In May 1943, a Munich court wrote in its decision against SS-Untersturmführer Max Taubner that:
The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself.
And Hitler spoke quite clearly in public on no fewer than three occasions. On January 30, 1939, seven months before Germany invaded Poland, he spoke publicly to the Reichstag (transcribed from Skeptic magazine, Vol. 2, No. 4, p. 50):
Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.
By the way, this last phrase is, in German, “die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa,” which German-speakers will realize is quite unambiguous.
In September, 1942:
…if Jewry should plot another world war in order to exterminate the Aryan peoples in Europe, it would not be the Aryan people which would be exterminated but Jewry…
On November 8, 1942:
You will recall the session of the Reichstag during which I declared: if Jewry should imagine that it could bring about an international world war to exterminate the European races, the result will not be the extermination of the European races, but the extermination of Jewry in Europe. People always laughed about me as a prophet. Of those who laughed then, countless numbers no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will perhaps no longer laugh a short time from now.
There are many other examples of documents and testimonies that could be presented.
Keep in mind that the IHR’s answer to “what proof exists?” is “none.” It has certainly been demonstrated already that this pat answer is totally dishonest. And this is the main point we wish to communicate: that Holocaust-denial is dishonest.
We continue by analyzing the remaining, more-specific, claims about what evidence supposedly does not exist.
# “No mounds of ashes” is an internal contradiction. In an article in the journal published by the same IHR that publishes these Q&A, the Journal’s editor reported that a Polish commission in 1946 found human ash at the Treblinka death camp to a depth of over twenty feet. This article is available on The IHR’s web site.
(Apparently some survivors claimed that the corpses were always thoroughly cremated. Because uncremated human remains were mixed with the ash, the editor suggested that the testimonies were false. Amazingly, he had no comment on how a twenty-foot layer of human ashes came to be there in the first place. Perhaps he felt that to be unworthy of mention.)
There are also piles of ashes at Maidanek. At Auschwitz-Birkenau, ashes from cremated corpses were dumped into the rivers and swamps surrounding the camp, and used as fertilizer for nearby farmers’ fields.
# “No crematoria” capable of disposing of millions of corpses? Absolutely false, the crematoria were more than capable of the job, according to both the Nazis’ own internal memos and the testimony of survivors. Holocaust-deniers deliberately confuse civilian, funeral-home crematoria with the huge industrial ovens of the death camps. This is discussed in much detail in the replies to questions 42 and 45.
# “No piles of clothes”? Apparently, the IHR considers piles of clothes to be “hard evidence”! This is strange, because they do not deny the other sorts of piles found at Nazi camps: piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes (at Auschwitz, Belzec, and Maidanek), piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs (see Swiebocka, Auschwitz: A History in Photographs, 1993, p. 210), piles of human hair (ibid, p. 211), piles of ransacked luggage (ibid, p. 213), piles of shaving-brushes (ibid, p. 215), piles of combs (ibid), piles of pots and pans (ibid), and yes, even the piles of clothes (ibid, p. 214) that the IHR claims do not exist.
Perhaps the authors of the 66 Q&A realized that it was dangerous for them to admit that these piles were hard evidence, because then they would also be forced to admit a number of other things as “hard evidence.” Perhaps this is why they removed this phrase from the revised 66 Q&A.
If items were not generally found in mass quantities, it is only because the Nazis distributed them to the German population. A memo on this was captured, revealing that they even redistributed women’s underwear.
# “No human soap”? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored “mass production” was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.
# “No lamp shades made of human skin?” False — lampshades and other human-skin “ornaments” were introduced as evidence in both trials of Ilse Koch, and were shown to a U.S. Senate investigation committee in the late 40s. We know they were made of human skin because they bore tattoos, and because a microscopic forensic analysis of the items was performed. (A detailed page on this is being prepared.)
# “No records”? This is nonsense (which may explain why this claim was removed from the “revised” versions of the 66 Q&A). True, extermination by gassing was always referred to with code-words, and those victims who arrived at death camps only to be immediately gassed were not recorded in any books. But there are slip-ups in the code-word usage that reveal the true meanings, as already described. There are inventories and requisitions for the Krema which reveal items anomalous with ordinary use but perfect for mass homicidal gassing. There are deportation train records which, pieced together, speak clearly. And so on. Several examples have been given above.
# “No credible demographic statistics”? This is the second internal contradiction — see question 2 and question 15. The Anglo-American committee who studied the issue estimated the number of Jewish victims at 5.7 million. This was based on population statistics. Here is the exact breakdown, country by country:
Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,000
Luxemburg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Yugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)
Total number of Jews killed 5,721,500
(This estimate was arrived at using population statistics, and not by adding the number of casualties at each camp. These are also available — for instance, a separate file with the ruling of a German court regarding the number of victims in Treblinka is available. The SS kept rather accurate records, and many of the documents survived, reinforced by eyewitness accounts).
Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the magnitude in question. In an article in CMU’s student newspaper, the head of CMU’s History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as saying that newly discovered documents — especially in the former USSR — indicate that the number of victims is higher than six million. Other historians claim not much over five million. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust uses 5,596,000 as a minimum and 5,860,000 as a maximum (Gutman, 1990, p. 1799).
# In summary:
“Revisionists” often claim, correctly, that the burden of proof is on historians. The proof, of course, has been a matter of public record since late 1945, and is available in libraries around the world. The burden has been met, many, many times over. You’ve just seen a brief presentation of some of the highlights of that immense body of proof; much more is readily available.
To even argue that the Holocaust never happened is ludicrous. To claim straight-faced that none of this proof even exists is beyond ludicrous, and it is a clear example of “revisionist” dishonesty.
913 GiantFlyingRobo
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:03 pm
@ianz09 (901): Yep, we do.
914 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:12 pm
@Randall (911):
Good job directly quoting Shermer.
Too bad I know this piece very well – this is one of the best worded articles I’ve read from the revisionist standpoint:
http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_jumping.html
It’s a reply to your post basically, showing how the argument is a fraud.
915 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Randall seems to think quoting large portions of text he didn’t write is debating.
Lol.
Randall, try http://forum.codoh.com
That’s debating.
916 Randall
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:19 pm
@Lamprecht (916):
I’m not here to debate you, scumbag. You are not worthy of “debate,” and this subject is not UP for debate.
YOU are the one violating the paradigm here, the one speaking out against the mainstream. The burden of proof is on YOU. YOU refute the arguments and points offered up here. YOU show how they are wrong.
And stop posting the link to your little revionist haven. No one here has any intention of dignifying you or your disgusting agenda any further.
917 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:19 pm
@Lamprecht (908): You really don’t get it, huh? Your goat is crying out back, I think it is dinner time for him.
918 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:35 pm
@Randall (917):
The subject isn’t up for debate because you don’t want to debate?
Sounds pretty damn ignorant, Randall.
I’ve refuted YOUR arguments, just not the long blocks of text you’ve taken from other people.
I could simply copy and paste books here if I wanted to, nobody would read it just like nobody would read any refutation I write to your long blocks of text.
It’s odd how you give arguments by someone other than you yet expect ME, and specifically me (You capitalized the word), to refute them.
What a double standard, Randall.
I would like to know why you think CODOH is a revisionist haven since anyone is allowed to post there regardless of their Holocaust viewpoints.
Also, how would debate dignify my agenda?
What agenda are you talking about – and what’s “disgusting” about it?
919 Lamprecht
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:37 pm
@ianz09 (918):
Another magnificent post by ianz without the name of one Jew, with proof, that was killed in a homicidal Nazi gas chamber.
Also, you forgot to answer my questions.
920 GiantFlyingRobo
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:46 pm
@meh (895):**cough*cough*megadouchebag*cough*
921 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:00 pm
@archiealt (905):
Of all my posts with all my creative profanity and insulting, you picked THAT one? Come on Archie, I know Betty and Veronica haven’t been giving it up to you and you’ve had to resort to circlejerks with Moose and Jughead, but still, you should be able to recognize better insults than that!
Also, I am not a TWAT; I am a DICK. Despite the fact that I have a horrific unisex name that prevented me from ever getting a blue tag with my name on it for my bicycle (but I’m not bitter) I am male and not female.
However, I do look pretty good in drag if you like the Rubenesque body type.
922 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:09 pm
@Lamprecht (920): What part of any of my posts are you having trouble with? As for proof, you wouldn’t accept any. You mean to tell me that out of everybody’s arguments on here, there isn’t a single thing that made you doubt your stance? If anything that has previously been posted doesn’t constitute evidence for you, nothing will. You are so embedded in yourself that everyone’s responses just glean off of you like light off a mirror.
ianz09 (347)
get a clue (365)
ianz09 (372)
get a clue (376)
ianz09 (410)
get a clue (437)
ianz09 (443)
get a clue (454)
ianz09 (466)
get a clue (488)
Despite the fact that the only thing I did was provide a very solid argument for my case, he only ridiculed me and claimed my case is bullshit, rather than refute it. He was so convinced that he was right, that no matter what I sent his way, he rejected it. All you do is link to that forum, on which people discuss Holocaust revisionism. You have absolutely no proof their credentials, and as far as your posts go, you and they have yet to cite credible sources. If there are credible sources, do us a favor and and cite them. It will make you more credible. And the fact that you simply wave aside personal testimonies from these people, without cited sources to back yourself up, makes you look like an ass. You wonder why people are hostile. Pretend you are wrong about your view on the Holocaust. Pretend that kingoflondon’s grandfather’s family were all slaughtered. For you to sit here and say “they probably died of typhoid” is a gigantically rude smack in the mouth. Nothing I or anyone has to say will be good enough. That is why I respond to your comments with ridiculous idiocies. Because it isn’t that I can’t dig around and find some evidence to support my side, it is that it would be wasted hours, because you would just link to that website and say “crisis averted”. I argued with get a clue, and to what avail? None. He never once provided an argument solid enough to withstand mine, but claimed victory anyway. You would do the same. And it could be argued that the people you are posting against would do the same, and you know what? Most, if not all, would. Bringing me to my overall point: Do not think you are above the fray. We all think you are another neo-Nazi posing as an academic, and you think we are all uneducated Holocaust-humpers who hate that somebody disagrees with them. If you are not a neo-Nazi, it makes no difference. I am no Holocaust-humper, I believe it is true based on the facts I have seen (yes, from both sides), and have come out in favor of believing the Holocaust is accurate to what it is depicted as.
And as for my comments, I wasn’t here to refute you. Because of your blatant disregard for people’s personal accounts, I labeled you an asshole, and had fun messing with you. You didn’t realize all those “Got your goat” references in my comments. I was trying to get a rise out of you, and was succeeding. In which case, ignore me so I’m robbed of my fun. You never saw my real motives, which were simply, to get a laugh because anything I had to say was already said and dismissed, so why bother. Happy? Was this the magnificent post you were hoping for?
923 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:12 pm
@Shannon (922): He’s targeting you because you openly admitted to being religious. Him and get a clue have an agenda against that. If you were an open atheist, he would not have spoken, just kept his thoughts to himself.
924 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:14 pm
@ianz09 (923):
Dude, do you think it’s time for you to do that thing you do with the hard core trolls?
You know “Their name” + “profanity and/or bodily function” + smiley face?
That’s some funny stuff.
925 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
@Shannon (925): If he doesn’t smell what I’m cooking after that, then yes, many laughs are in order, although I’m not sure if he would keep coming back like auroranorth did.
926 ava
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:28 pm
@Lamprecht (910): Exactly my point… when bad things happen to people they exaggerate to get their point across…to make sure they are heard…as were talking about Jews and what happened to Jews…I said Jews exaggerate…I wasn’t saying ONLY Jews exaggerate…its what everyone does when something horrible happens…and this is why a lot of what Jews have said has become fact when obviously it is just how people react…and in this case I’m talking about the Jews…
927 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:44 pm
@ava (927): Yeah, you save that face!
928 Shannon
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:45 pm
@ianz09 (926):
He/She was a thick one, wasn’t he?
Also, looks like someone has been reading our thread and taken issue with Lampy’s website: http://wp.me/pAgdf-Q
929 ianz09
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:54 pm
@Shannon (929): That’s awesome.
930 Zhu
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Some stuffs are cultural too. Homosexuality is much less taboo in Europe than in North America.
931 oouchan
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:53 pm
@Shannon (929): Saw that article. That was pure entertainment!
@ Randall: Sweetie, you get extra hugs and kisses for those posts. mwah!
However, I feel that no mater what you say or quote or back up with proof its just going to go in one ear and out their ass.
I really feel we need to stop feeding these trolls. They are just trying to keep the flame war going. Just my opinion.
932 renegade01
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:56 pm
@oouchan (932):
Haha you’re right. We tried, we failed. If they want to continue living in fantasy land then let them.
933 ava
November 24th, 2009 at 12:20 am
@ianz09 (928): you mean you’ve run out of bullshit plagarised arguments…it was fun while it lasted…but obviously you guys have tiny minds and miniscule dicks…
934 archiealt
November 24th, 2009 at 5:05 am
@Shannon (922):
I know you’re a man, it doesn’t make you seem any less of a twat. And i wasn’t having a go at any one post of yours in particular, pretty much everything you said was irritatingly humourless.
@ianz09 (924):
No, kid. It’s not because he’s religious, it’s because from his comments we can ascertain he is one of the least funny people ever to post anything anywhere. Him and ‘flyingrobo’, that kids fucking painful.
Oh, and I noticed you sighted your argument with ‘getaclue’ as evidence of you ‘coming out on top’ in a discussion. But trust me mate, you didn’t win that one, you lost. Really badly. Like, Wigan bad.
935 renegade01
November 24th, 2009 at 7:41 am
@ava (934):
Plagiarized arguments? PLEASE. All of the arguments you or any of your little friends over there have given have been links to another website. Other than that it’s all been defending yourself against personal attacks and returning those attacks. Neither of you have given your OWN, original arguments. Just links. The only difference between what Randall did and what you two did was he saved you the trouble of clicking a link. He actually cited what he was “plagiarizing” before he even said it, meaning it was NOT plagiarized. As for minuscule dicks..what does that have to do with anything? At all? It wasn’t even remotely funny if it was an attempt at humor.
936 Scratch
November 24th, 2009 at 7:46 am
Lamprecht (847)
“Originally I didn’t plan to answer your calls but after talking with Irv Rubin, whose counsel I have come to trust over the past few months, I’ve realized that my silence might be misconstrued by you as an attempt to distance myself from the statement I gave the Jewish Defense League making clear my changed position on the Holocaust. So to that end let me make it absolutely crystal clear that that statement is a completely accurate summary of my present views. It was made willingly by me and was in no way the result of threat or blackmail or some kind of contract that was out on me. The people making that claim are either mistaken or are purposefully trying to make trouble for me..” – David Cole – April 10, 1998.
If they are denying the Holocaust, then they’re anti-Semitic. I can assert this about people I don’t know based upon what they say. Believe it or not, shithead, a person’s words and actions reveal their biases. Denying the Holocaust is anti-Semitic. And, no, shithead, it’s not revisionism it’s denial. Don’t even pretend that what you do even has the veneer of anything even resembling history. You are a crackpot conspiracy theorist, nothing more nothing less. Actually, you ARE less than a crackpot conspiracy theorist – you’re a fucking nutjob.
There are absolutely no Holocaust deniers who are taken seriously in Academia. None. Zero.
Why are there no Holocaust deniers who are taken seriously by Academia? And no, you and Ava Braun and Brian are not revisionists, you’re deniers.
You made a series of ridiculous observations about the photograph. You have absolutely no evidence that it is a fake. Yet, as soon as you see it your automatic reaction is to believe it is a fake and try to deconstruct it. Are you an expert in photography? Have you examined any documentation on where this photograph comes from? Have you cited any source to back up your ludicrous claim? No. You’re ridiculous.
Again, the quote from Hitler’s Mein Kempt merely reveals the mindset of someone who would be willing to gas Jews en masse. “World War I may have been one (sic)”?
Listen again, idiot, the quote reveals a lot about Hitler’s character and his belief in a conspiracy by the Jews. He believes that had they been killed en masse, World War I could have been prevented. No, taken alone it does not prove the Holocaust, but taken with all the other evidence it makes absolute sense that he would say that. He believes in a Jewish conspiracy that started World War I, and he believes these Jewish leaders should have been gassed.
None of the work of Holocaust deniers has EVER held up to any standards of historiography or Academic work.
Your counter-“evidence” has only consisted of your opinions and the sub-amateur work of Holocaust deniers who cite their own work and the work of other deniers.
If you would like I could recommend the work of some serious scholars on the Holocaust whose work has held up to the standards of Academia. These are people with actual Ph.d’s in History who are published in peer reviewed journals.
937 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 8:58 am
@archiealt (935): Lol, ok. Keep telling yourself that, and I’ll just remain seated.
938 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 9:21 am
@Scratch (937):
Scratch, would you be so kind as to show EXACTLY how the personal belief that the Holocaust claims are exaggerated has ANYTHING to do with their political and ideological views?
So far you have given no proof whatsoever that absolutely links revisionism – or “denial” as you call it – to any hateful belief.
Holocaust “Deniers” aren’t taken seriously because it’s such a tabooed subject and they are labeled “Racist” instantly – you’re an example of this.
Scratch, did you ignore my post?
Do you agree that the photo is cropped?
Do you agree that if you take a straight-edge and line it up with the gun barrel it misses the woman’s head?
Do you agree that the shadows in the photo contradict what should actually happen?
Scratch, the photo doesn’t prove anything anyway. Are YOU an expert in photography? Who are you to tell me if I’m right or wrong?
The photograph doesn’t have any accompanying documentation, Scratch, not that it matters at all.
“This century” claims that the photo is:
“A member of the Einsatzgruppen targets a mother and child at point-blank range. Women were often ordered to hold their children so that one bullet could do the work of two.”
So he’s targeting a mother although completely missing her?
Also, what source do I have to cite, Scratch? I’ve pointed out flaws in the photograph, are you blind? Can you look at the picture and see them or not?
There’s nothing to cite, you’re just trying to discredit my claims, too bad you didn’t refute them.
The quote revealing a mindset – which is questionable – doesn’t mean it happened, Scratch.
During WWII there were various Americans with the mindset of “Kill all the Japs!” but did we gas and exterminate every Japanese person on the planet? Did we try?
No, of course not.
Everyone knows Hitler was an anti-Semite and racist, so what? Plenty of them have existed and didn’t kill anyone.
Scratch, what are the “standards of historiography or Academic work”?
My counter evidence? Where did I cite other “Holocaust deniers” Scratch?
I only cited a guy that DOES NOT deny the Holocaust (He believes the Einsatzgruppen killings occurred) and openly denounces Nazism.
Work from a serious scholar?
http://vho.org/Archive.html#Journals
I personally recommend the book:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/
Scratch, credentials aren’t everything. Yes, Rudolf has a PhD in Chemistry and various other authors from the book have PhD’s too, but so what?
Everyone is prone to error no matter how educated and having more credentials doesn’t make you right.
I tend to prefer forum discussions because people can speak with anonymity and when there is a good mod team, personal attacks and accusations are rare.
Your argument that Holocaust revisionist work isn’t “published in peer reviewed journals” is a fallacy at best, an argument is not an invalid argument because it wasn’t “published in peer reviewed journals”
939 damien_karras
November 24th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Goebbels, Himmler, Goering and the rest of you lot.
Do NOT darken the Listverse doorway anymore. You have your own forum to debate on and others, I’m sure. You are not welcome here. I’ve read a lot of disturbing entries on this site since I joined, but after reading yours I’m physically ill.
I’ve never advocated censorship before, so I won’t here. You’ve had enough time to lay your claims and try to change people’s minds here. You won’t. All I ask is that you leave.
940 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 9:25 am
@damien_karras (940):
>>You have your own forum to debate on
You’re right, I have shown them this forum and linked it probably ten times by now – someone even wrote an article on it!
http://idiotpatrol.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/todays-idiots-the-holocaust-deniers-at-codoh/
Which I’ve replied to:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5791
941 Davy
November 24th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Hmm, looks like some assholes have returned…
@ava (934):
I don’t think you have any business writing about my penis size; that’s mine and my girlfriend’s job. And I assure you my 9 1/2 inch cock is no “miniscule dick”.
942 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 9:41 am
@ianz09 (923):
ianz09, I have seen EVERY SINGLE argument you have thrown at least 5 times over.
No, it didn’t make me doubt my stance. The arguments are poor.
YOU are so embedded in YOURSELF that you cannot even admit that there’s a slight possibility that the Holocaust is exaggerated.
The difference, ianz09, is that I used to be an exterminationist, like you, and believed “Deniers” were crazy. I read various books by survivors and two by historians on the Holocaust.
How many revisionist books have you read, ianz09?
You want to give proof? Where is the physical evidence, ianz? Ignore the speeches and quotes for a second, where are the 1000s of bodies at Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, and Chelmno?
There is supposed to be 2 million bodies at these camps combined – that is 1/3 of the holocaust, ianz.
Where is this third?
As for “Get a clue” – why do I care? I am not him, his arguments are not related to me. I can post conversations with typical beleivers and a well-informed revisionist, it proves nothing.
The forum is not JUST for discussing revisionism, ianz09. ANYONE is allowed to go. Do you want me to show you posts where people claim the Holocaust occurred as generally beleived?
You are allowed to post too, ianz. Invite all of your friends.
ianz, what is a “Credible source” in your opinion? One that agrees with you only?
Thought so…
ianz, I simply asked KOL how he “Knew” they were murdered and didn’t die of nautral causes. He didnt’ tell me HOW he knew so I’m forced to assume that he assumed.
ianz, that’s a typical response – “I debated another denier and I didn’t like his arguments – you’re just going to be the exact same”
ianz, you are so sure that you’re right when you haven’t even seen the opposing arguments. Pretending that “get a clue” is the epitome of holocaust revision is a joke.
ianz, what “Facts” are you talking about. Be SPECIFIC and try not to quote a long, multiple page article like someone did.
I am an asshole for “blatant disregard for people’s personal accounts” ianz? How did I disregard them? I questioned KOL and asked for MORE information – that’s quite the opposite.
I’m intrigued, ianz. How does he know they were gassed? Were they gassed?
Here’s another possibility – I know you’re going to hate it – maybe he made it all up? When I asked him for verification he said he didn’t want to give out his personal information, which is understandable, but that still leaves a hole.
I’m not going to blindly believe his sob story.
I am aware that you were trolling me, ianz, I just don’t pay attention to that. If you’ve ever seen me post before I am generally immune to that nonsense and try to revert the conversation back to the original point.
ianz, why do you believe KOL’s story when he offers absolutely no proof to support his claims?
Was it “published in a peer reviewed journal” ianz?
943 segues
November 24th, 2009 at 9:51 am
@Scratch (937): Brian and ava are one and the same poster masquerading as two personalities (Brian admitted so way, way up in the posts. I can no longer find it), and I am of the belief that Lamprecht is as well.
Remember the saying, “There is strength in numbers”?, since he has no numbers of adherents to follow in his so-very-misguided footsteps, he creates them. He even interacts with them!
Sounds somewhat brain-damaged to me (too much gasoline-sniffing), but there are more dead brain cells than functional cells in that head!
944 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 10:18 am
@Lamprecht (941): What arguments have I thrown at you? None. In my first paragraph of my last lost to you, I specifically said I would not be providing any evidence. For me to try and track down dozens of documentaries, articles, and personal accounts that I have previously been exposed to would be time consuming and redundant. If what people have provided isn’t good enough, nothing will be. I’m not here to argue with you, I am here to consistently piss you off. I am succeeding. Argue as much as you like, other people are doing the job of arguing back at you better than I probably could, I’ll leave it up to them. Stop replying to me as if I am an opponent. I’m just a smartass, derrr. You and get a clue are the same in that instead of providing the irrefutable evidence that you have, you simply state you have it. Due to your seeming inability to provide anything except an open dicussion forum that cites no peer-reviewed sources, I am jumping to the conclusion that that forum is all you’ve got. I have been proven wrong on this site before, and others will tell you I am generally very humble.
I am not embedded in myself, sorry. I have seen overwhelming proof of the accurate existence of the Holocaust, and all I’ve seen to the contrary isn’t credible or has been refuted. This is your opportunity to change my mind with good evidence, for a change. But, you are failing.
As far as arguing goes, have the last word. I don’t need it, seeing as I’ve already got your goat. I’m taking care of it. What is it’s name? I will continue to reply, but from here on out it will be babbling idiocies, as this will make me smile and God only knows I need some smiling. By not replying, you will be robbing me of my fun. Unless, you provide that catch-all evidence you’ve been promising. And yes, I will be reading your posts, not just replying and submitting, so you will have plenty of chances to change my mind. Until then, you are an assturd.
945 kingoflondon
November 24th, 2009 at 10:21 am
>>ianz, I simply asked KOL how he “Knew” they were murdered
>>and didn’t die of nautral causes. He didnt’ tell me HOW
>>he knew so I’m forced to assume that he assumed.
I’ll tell you how I know you retard – They were alive before they were taken by the Nazis, and they were no longer alive after the war.
We are talking about an entire family that was wiped out save for one man, my grandfather. Natural causes? Are you serious? Just step back for a moment and think about how entirely ridiculous that sounds. Natural causes? An entire family, and my wife’s grandfather’s entire family? You dare to suggest that this could possibly be due to natural causes? A coincidental death of an ENTIRE family, sorry, 2 ENTIRE families?
You dare to suggest that I made these things up? Unfucking believable. I never wanted to enter this argument. I posted that story before as evidence of what happens when you get involved with trying to talk to holocaust deniers, and that it was inevitably going to end in a slanging match which will reach no real resolution. Looks like I was right. I never said that they were gassed (or that they weren’t) because that story was not the point I was trying to make. All I said is that they were all murdered by the Nazis. An entire, large, whole family… my wife’s grandfather’s entire family… all dead.
Believe what you like.
As you say, you have seen the arguments against what you are saying multiple times, so what you read here isn’t going to change your mind. I agree, and that is all I was saying.
I wasn’t trying to tell a sob story, I was giving an example of why arguing with holocaust deniers is pointless. I would similarly say to you that arguing with people that do not believe in what you say, especially people such as myself, is equally destined to fail…
So why don’t you just fuck off?
946 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 10:27 am
@damien_karras (939): Thank you
947 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 10:29 am
@ava (934): Buttfuck
948 segues
November 24th, 2009 at 10:43 am
@kingoflondon (944): Lamprecht can’t fuck off, he/she/it lacks any fucking equipment whatsoever.
949 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 10:44 am
@ianz09 (945):
Exactly, ianz, you haven’t given any arguments.
You don’t even try.
You ASSUME I won’t care.
You haven’t pissed me off, ianz, I don’t catch feelings over the internet.
Actually, ianz, the fourm DOES cite peer-reviewed studies – not that it matters.
Just because something is peer reviewed doesn’t mean it’s valid, and just because something isn’t doesn’t mean it isn’t valid.
The forum isn’t “All I got” ianz, it’s a forum that will make it easier and neater to debate the Holocaust.
Since you are too much of a coward to do so, you don’t have to join.
ianz, I have a feeling you will not read the evidence I give you – then again, I don’t know what you want. I don’t know specifically WHY you believe in the standard Holocaust story.
For some it’s the witnesses – for others it’s the documents – for others it’s the Nazis themselves.
Everyone is different and you have to personally seek the information yourself.
I can make it easy to show you the facts I think refute your personal beliefs – just post them on the forum. It’s not a boast, it’s a challenge. The truth will set you free, ianz.
ianz, what SPECIFICALLY do you think outright proves that the Nazis planned and carried out with an extermination of Jews, and how much are you willing to read about?
950 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 10:48 am
@kingoflondon (946):
It seems some people seem to think that if you die in a concentration camp you were murdered by Nazis.
Lol
KOL, they most likely DID die of natural causes such as disease which was rampant in the camps.
There was also a food shortage towards the end of the war.
I think there are databases online where you can search your surname and find information on dead family members. Did you do that? If so, what did it say?
951 Scratch
November 24th, 2009 at 10:52 am
@ segues (947)
Ah, that makes sense.
952 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 10:52 am
@Lamprecht (948): Snatchwrangler
953 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 10:56 am
@Lamprecht (948): One more thing, well I’m logged on. Regarding your calling me a coward: I just looked out back, and my goat is still tied up next to yours. It was a decent try though.
Sperm dumpster
954 oouchan
November 24th, 2009 at 10:58 am
@ianz09 (952): I got one for you. My sister always called my my dad’s wife as Spam Sucking Trailer Trash. You can use that one if you like.
955 damien_karras
November 24th, 2009 at 11:00 am
@Lamprecht (949):
You win. I’m crying uncle. Your version of what happened is 100% spot-on and the rest of the known civilized world is off their rocker. Now that your victory is established, you can return back from whence you came, secure in the knowledge you actually accomplished great things here at Listverse.
Now get on yer bike.
956 Davy
November 24th, 2009 at 11:29 am
@segues (947): Exactly
957 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
@Davy (957):
@damien_karras (956):
@oouchan (955):
@ianz09 (954):
@Scratch (952):
@segues (949):
Folks, I finally figured this out. Hell, I don’t know why I didn’t see it before. Lampy wants “proof” of a homicidal gas chamber anywhere in the Third Reich but here’s the bitch of it all . . . if anyone cites Jewish survivors’ stories, he interprets that to mean “They survived so obviously the Nazis weren’t trying to exterminate people.” Any Nazis who came clean he’ll dismiss as having been “tortured” even if they wrote their accounts in the safety and comfort of another country. Apparently, the only proof Lampy and his ilk will accept is the testimony of someone who was actually gassed in a Nazi gas chamber, which is of course absurd since if they were gassed, THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD. ***ironic LOL***
I’ll refer back to the post I made earlier. We have more evidence that the Holocaust occurred as has been traditionally accepted than we do for thousands of events from Antiquity right up to the modern era. It’s funny, but if Lampy and his website cronies tried to deny the Armenian Genocide, they’d get laughed off the stage. If they tried to deny the Rwandan Genocide, they’d be tarred and feathered and branded as racist. I would LOVE to see one of them walk up to Haing Ngor, a survivor of the Cambodian Genocide who saw is entire family tortured and killed, and tell HIM the Cambodian Genocide didn’t occur and since he survived Pol Pot “obviously wasn’t trying to exterminate anyone.” I’m fairly certain they’d never try to deny the millions of deaths caused by Mao’s Great Leap Forward, even though the records of the dead in ALL those events are much less numerous than those for the Holocaust.
It all boils down to one thing: Antisemitism. It is as old as the Jewish ethnic group. Just because this tiny little group of people was run off their land and forced to wander all over Hell and half of Georgia and STILL managed to keep their national identity and culture intact over 2,000 years, people like Lampy hate them. It’s the same hatred that fueled the Inquisition, the Cossack Pogroms, the character of Shylock in “Merchant of Venice.” Don’t get me wrong, I think the Jews are a remarkable people as a nation, but they are making a bit of a mess of the Middle East. I guess they feel after 2000 years of persecution and wandering, they are entitled to it. Personally, I would think they’d be more sympathetic BECAUSE of their trials, but not everyone takes the “best idea” way out.
So that’s it, Lampy and the rest of the Holocaust Deniers aren’t academics, they are antisemites and their message is as old as the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD: “Jews are not like us, they are strange, and therefore, we cannot trust them and must hate them.”
Simple really now that I think about it. See, it’s not PC to denigrate Africans (Rwanda), Asians (Cambodia and China), or other ethnic groups like Native Americans or Armenians. However, it’s never QUITE been “Un-PC” to be antisemitic. Since it’s tacitly okay to not like Jews, Holocaust Deniers don’t have as much societal pressure to stop pandering their hatred.
But hey, the Jews have survived the Holocaust, 2000 years of wandering, and three major wars to hold on to Israel. I’m betting it’s going to take more than a bunch of blowhards like Lampy and his crew to bring them down.
PS:@ava (934): Bukkake recipient
958 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
@Lamprecht (950):
One last thing, Lampy
While I appreciate the massive number of hits to my blog that your cronies are sending, you might want to tell them that, unlike y’all’s home forum, mine DOES collect IP Addresses and some of the things they say might make some of those “bad old police states” Very Unhappy, lol.
Oh, yeah, and let them know their comments, while colorful, will never see the light of day since I get final say over what comes up
Rage on you impotent little pukes!
And Lampy: just for old time’s sake Seig Heil, Pussy-Bitch
959 segues
November 24th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
@Davy (957): I pay attention to these things (emphasis on “things”)
960 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
@oouchan (955): Oooh, nice. I’ll place that in the file under Troll-Based Entertainment!
961 segues
November 24th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
@Shannon (958): Late to the party is better than not arriving at all!
Now you do know that Brian and ava are one and the same, right? I think Lamprecht might be part of the sicko psych fest, but I’m not sure. I do know that between the two (or three or one) there aren’t enough synapses firing to warm milk.
962 Davy
November 24th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
@ianz09 (961): Are you impersonating the real ianz09 or is there just something wrong with the icon?
963 Davy
November 24th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
@segues (962): While on the subject, ava accused Woyzeck of impersonating him/her/it (comments 678 753). I can’t be sure it means anything though.
964 oouchan
November 24th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
@damien_karras (956): You are such a good little monkey! I like that post. The trolls really need to curb their idiocy.
@Shannon (958): *clap, clap* Excellent post.
As a side note, I just wonder where it will all end? If someone denies this then what else will they deny?
How about that the earth is round? It’s just as silly.
965 Bella
November 24th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Whoever says the holocaust never happened, is either in denial, or just a really dumb twat. I, personally, believe its the latter.
966 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
@oouchan (965):
oouchan, one can arrange a flight around the world.
One can deny that the earth is round with no consequences.
But claiming the Holocaust is exaggerated (Nobody denies the Holocaust) can put you in jail, ask the various revisionists that have.
oouchan, am I allowed to go to the camps and dig up the alleged graves and conclude whether or not there were bodies there? Of course not.
The difference is that one is allowed to seek the physical evidence for the shape of the earth but one is not allowed to seek the physical evidence for the so-called Holocaust.
It’s not comparable.
967 oouchan
November 24th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
@Lamprecht (967): Wow. You just posted that you want to dig up bodies of the victims. How sick can you get. Just when I thought you couldn’t sink any lower.
Yes. It’s comparable, because your idea and the idea that the earth is flat…is just dumb. That’s the comparison.
Please take your trash and troll speak off to your little forum where it belongs.
968 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
@Shannon (958):
Shannon, Shannon, Shannon…
Where have I said:
“They survived so obviously the Nazis weren’t trying to exterminate people.”
That’s a silly, childish argument. Do not throw such claism at me and falsely associate me with such.
Let me argue myself.
A story is just that, Shannon, a story. There are 100s of stories of alien abductions, do you believe them?
I could write a story about my journey back in time and that I was actually Jesus, would you believe it then?
Why not?
Are Jews the only discernable group of humans that cannot lie, Shannon?
I do not dismiss all Nazis as tortured – I did say that Hoess was tortured, and he was. He personally said this and his torturers admitted it too.
Forget the testimony, Shannon, try physical evidence for once. Why hasn’t one body been found with proof that he/she was killed by zyclon-b gassing?
Where are just 1% of the mass graves at Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec, and Sobibor, Shannon?
Shannon, where is this evidence that you claim exists for the Holocaust? Testimony most likely – contradicting testimony at that!
Poor Shannon, trying to target us as “Genocide deniers” – as I’ve said various times, nobody denies that the Holocaust happens, or at least nobody that I know.
We do not believe the Holocaust is exaggerated for any other reason than that’s what our research has shown. I would not feel good inside if I denied a genocide. If I see massive contradictions and lack of proof, I will not believe it.
It boils down to antisemitism? How so, Shannon? Can you find ONE antisemitic statement by me?
If I didn’t doubt the Holocaust claims, would I still be antisemitic? If so, how would you know?
Remember Shannon, even though you refuse to believe it: Just saying it doesn’t make it so. So far you’ve repeated the utter lie that revisionism is “antisemitism” with absolutely no proof. You have just repeated it over and over, at best quoting other’s who agree.
Shannon, that is not proof.
I would like you to show a link between the personal beleif that the Holocaust as we know it is exaggerated and hatred/intolerance of Jews.
I would also like you to show that just because something is “Antisemitic” it is wrong or just because an “antisemite” said it makes it wrong.
Shannon, how would you define “Academic”? What about people with degrees in their field of expertise? What about college professors? What about diploma chemists, physicists, engineers, historians, or population statisticians(sp?)?
Oh, and Shannon, why insist that I want to “Bring [Jews] down”?
I most certainly do not, Shannon. I want Jews to be treated just like everyone else.
Jews shouldn’t be discriminated against or given special privileges.
I do not want to bring Jews down – I am actually opposed to antisemitism and have denounced xenophobia and prejudice.
Oh, Shannon, in your post I must’ve missed it – did you give the name of ONE Jew, with proof, that was killed in a Nazi gas chamber? No? And I’m supposed to believe that MILLIONS did?
969 GiantFlyingRobo
November 24th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Ianz, I think we should do profane knock-knock jokes followed by as many smiley faces we can think of. That way, it’d be funner than last time.
970 carla milo
November 24th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
@Mark (605): Excellent point. [grin]
971 GiantFlyingRobo
November 24th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
@archiealt (935): Up your’s. mmln
972 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
@Davy (963): My name is ianz09 and i eat poopy and suck on dicks hehehehe
973 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
@oouchan (968):
I’m not opposed to using a GPR scanner and such has been done (Krege scanned Treblinka and found no evidence of mass graves) but it is still illegal and it was hushed up.
If I went to Europe with the intention to confirm whether or not the number that allegedly died at the “extermination camps” did then I would quickly be met with a warm spot in Polish prison.
oouchan, the claim is that there are no victims. If I went to Treblinka I would most likely not find any dead Jews killed by Nazis in the ground. I wouldn’t find their bones or ashes or teeth either, oouchan.
How is that bad?
Also, how is the belief that the Holocaust is exaggerated dumb? It’s not like someone has shown that the bodies exist as alleged at Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, or Chelmno.
Hey oouchan, it’s dumb to think that you don’t have 1000 dead people buried in your backyard you disgusting murderer.
974 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
@Davy (963): Nah, I’m just kidding Davy. On my computer, it remembers the nickname and email I sign in with as a guest, and I just put ianz09 in so that when i just want to type something quick without signing in I can. Not an impersonator, just me. This time, anyway.
975 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
@GiantFlyingRobo (970):
Knock knock?
Who’s there?
Orange.
Orange who?
Orange ya glad the condom broke?
That’s disgusting, Dad.
976 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
@Lamprecht (974): Turd burglar
977 G. S. Feet
November 24th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
@Davy (957):
@damien_karras (956):
@oouchan (955):
@ianz09 (954):
@Scratch (952):
@segues (949):
Hey, y’all, you know how Lampy has been INSISTING that he’s not a skinhead or racist or any of that?
Well, one of his troll buddies left a comment on my Idiot Patrol Blog, which I promptly deleted, but not before I checked out the link he left:
http://www.newp.org/holohoax101/
NEWP stands for North East White Pride.
Their tagline is “New England’s premier White rights and advocacy organization”
So, how you gonna explain that one, Lampy? I thought y’all were just a bunch of misunderstood “historians?”
No, you are not. You are White Supremacists and that’s just the way it is. so, PLEASE stop bullshitting everyone because you and your deluded band of assholes are the only ones who believe anything.
978 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
@Davy (957):
@damien_karras (956):
@oouchan (955):
@ianz09 (954):
@Scratch (952):
@segues (949):
Just wanted y’all to know that GSFeet is Shannon as well. It’s my username for WordPress and I didn’t log out.
Sorry for any mistaken identity.
979 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Yo, Lampy. If listen real carefully, you can here the nails being pounded into the coffin.
(978)
And I still have your goat, mother fucker!
980 oouchan
November 24th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
@Lamprecht (974): Just to say, you keep using my name in your post. It’s creepy. That’s all I have to say to you since you are a troll.
Oh and this last point: No matter what evidence we bring up you wouldn’t believe it. Someone could trek the bodies, ashes, bones, teeth, eyeglasses, clothes past your sorry ass and you would stand there with your thumb up your ass and a dumb expression your face saying “I … didn’t … anything.”
@G. S. Feet (978): (aka Shannon) Awesome find! It’s just more proof that we are dealing with a scum sucking troll and hater.
981 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
@Lamprecht (969):
“Why hasn’t one body been found with proof that he/she was killed by zyclon-b gassing?”
Um, because they were cremated, you dumb skinhead fuck.
What, can they do autopsies on ash in “Lampy World”?
Oh, that’s right! There isn’t any ash. There were not ANY shreds of archeological or forensic evidence except what Lampy says is good evidence and so far all the thousands of testimonies are lies, all the confessions were coerced, all the photos are “doctored”, etc. etc. etc.
Get over yourself, Lampy. I got laid off from work, I’m pissed, and I got a ton of time on my hands so I can do this all night if I want. Of course, it is getting tiresome.
But then that’s how y’all “claim victory” isn’t it? Bullshit facts and half-truths ad nauseum until everyone with a brain has a headache and just goes on off to sleep and let y’all little antisemites fondle each other’s skinned heads.
982 GiantFlyingRobo
November 24th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
@ianz09 (976): lulz. Ah, what the heck, I’ll just join in with you and Shannon. Don’t need any knock-knock jokes.
983 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
@G. S. Feet (978)
There are various flaws with your claims:
1. I am not SevenUp, the one who posted the link. I am not affiliated with him besides us both believing that the Holocaust is exaggerated and we might disagree with it’s extent of exaggeration.
2. Do you even know what a “Skinhead” is? A skinhead, you’re probably referring to a “neo-Nazi skinhead” (Some skinheads are “Anti-Racist”) are people that support National Socialism of the Third Reich. They are “New Nazis” as the name implies, the basically believe everything the NSDAP did with few exceptions.
“Racist” means:
a. The belief that one race is inferior to another
b. hatred or intolerance of another race
c. The belief that race is the primary or only determiner of human worth.
I don’t know anything about the “North East White Pride” organisation but there is nothing about “White pride” that is “Racist” or neo-Nazi skinhead related.
3. The beliefs of NEWP are irrelevant. Just because NEWP hosts a page that discusses the Holocaust doesn’t mean everyone that agrees with the page agrees with the NEWP.
4. I did not claim that the members of CODOH were all misunderstood historians.
5. What does the NEWP have to do with ME? Where did I EVER claim that I agree with their ideological beliefs regarding race?
Oh, Shannon, you called me a “White Supremacist” – what proof do you have? What makes you think I’m a White Supremacist? What have I said?
What makes you think the NEWP is a “White Supremacist” organization? As I said, I know nothing about the NEWP and just discovered it today from your comment but nothing about their website I skimmed suggests that it’s an organization filled with people that believe Whites are superior to all other races.
984 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
@Shannon (982):
I am not a skinhead, Shannon.
And how was everyone cremated?
Do you really believe that lie?
Did the Nazis have super-ovens that could cremate at a rate far superior to anything ever created before and after the “Holocaust”?
Shannon, I never said all of the witnesses, testimony, and photos are fake.
I have not ever said that a claim was false without giving some argument to support the notion – the same can’t be said for you.
You have a lot of time? Interesting.
Why don’t you go over to CODOH and post the miles of proof that supposedly exists for the extermination story?
How about an inch?
No?
Afraid?
Obviously.
All you can do is insult and vilify the “Deniers” and hide behind your wall of shame and refuse to allow any opposing posts into your silly blog.
It’s so damn funny, Shannon has yet to prove that all, or even the majority, of members on CODOH are “Racist” or “skinheads” and Shannon has yet to even explain why the hell it matters.
985 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
@Lamprecht (984): All white-meat breaded Chicken McAsshole
986 Davy
November 24th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
@ianz09 (975): *whew* That’s a relief.
987 kingoflondon
November 24th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Listen. There is nothing anyone could say that will alter the beliefs of CODOH. Nothing you are saying here is going to be anything new to these people. These are guys who have spent literally hundreds of hours writing thousands of comments onto a website entirely dedicated to holocaust revisionism.
Do you really think they haven’t heard all the counter arguments before?
My earlier point was that it would be pointless to argue with these people, and I have been proved correct.
Why do you think they are on this website writing these comments?
These revisionists will take what you say and will hit you with their well rehearsed counter arguments until the end of time, or until you come to the realisation that you are not going to achieve anything and stop engaging with them. Whichever comes first. When you do realise that the argument is pointless and stop, they will claim some kind of victory as if the fact that you are no longer engaging with them means that this adds some kind of weight to their argument, as if they have somehow ‘won’. In reality the only thing they are winning is an internet shouting match endurance competition.
It changes nothing. Let them say what they like.
988 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
@kingoflondon (989):
You are right, of course. You certainly are and I think it shows a great deal of your obviously strong character that you have stayed above this whole debacle with these assholes, KOL.
I know nothing short of a time machine trip that parks his demented racist ass in an oven in Auschwitz will change Lampy’s dumbass mind.
Still, I’m just a stubborn asshole myself and I figure I’ll just pick up the mud and muck and keep on slinging it.
I’m afraid if I let the dipshit go without challenging him, he’ll think he’s right and it’s okay. Now I know he’ll always think he’s right, but I’ll be damned if I let him think it’s okay.
989 kingoflondon
November 24th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
I would also reiterate that writing about what happened to my grandfather was not supposed to be helping to ‘prove’ the holocaust, as of course it proves absolutely nothing. I am just some guy on an internet site, my story does not add any weight to anything without me proving my claims properly. Even if I did (I could easily) it would still mean very little in the context of the argument as a whole, and this is why I do not want to give out such personal information on a public forum, as it would not achieve anything anyway.
I was using that story to put into context my position as the relative of a survivor who had genuine reasons to be angry at something I saw on the internet. It was supposed to show that even though I know what happened to my own family, that there was no convincing these people of anything. Initially it made me feel good to refute the claims being made, but after a while I was just left feeling angry and sickened by the whole thing. I did not have the stamina to out-argue these people. Denying the holocaust is their hobby, they have thousands of posts each on that one website alone. They live for this kind of thing.
The story was not a sob story, it was supposed to show that even though this is an issue that has genuine personal meaning to me, I have come to the realization that arguing with these people, no matter how well intentioned, will achieve anything at all. As a result, I will not engage with them on it, and I suggest noone else bothers either.
990 kingoflondon
November 24th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
@Shannon
I certainly appreciate what you are saying, and I share your sentiments 100%.
991 Davy
November 24th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
As we near the 1000 comment milestone, one wonders why there are so many posts.
Answer: Holocaust denier flaming.
992 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Kingoflondon says there is no convincing “These people” but hasn’t showed that he tried anywhere but here, and his efforts were rather weak.
Kingoflondon, prove that you have infallible arguments that cannot be defeated.
Post them at CODOH.
Post the arguments here, I don’t care.
You do know I do feel the same way though, KOL. I too believe I am right and that you will not accept ANYTHING as proof. “But IT HAPPENED!” you say.
Hmmm…
KOL, you’re just running out of arguments, stuck in a mindset of popularity – since almost everyone believes the standard story, as in any standard story, you must be right.
Those that oppose obviously hate Jews – although not one shred of evidence has been provided to support the claim that I have any prejudices towards Jews, Shannon openly admitted to using a fallacy!
It’s OK to be wrong KOL, but it’s not OK to be ignorant of the opposition.
You claim you’ve argued against “Deniers” before – can you show me where? Was it a forum?
993 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
@Lamprecht (996):
Lampy, no one here believes you. I don’t have to prove anything to you and neither does anyone else here.
You don’t want debate, you just want an excuse to parrot that broken record of “Show me this, show me that”.
Eat shit and die, Lampy. Eat. Shit. And. Die.
If I had any way to find you, I would MAKE you eat shit and die.
994 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Shannon – so hostile
I just want a logical reason to believe that the Jews were gassed, six million perished, and Hitler ordered it.
You haven’t given one. You’ve just insulted me and called me names.
Threats now, Shannon? Isn’t that against the rules?
No, it’s against the law!
http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/death-threat/
“Under state criminal codes, which vary by state, it is an offense to knowingly utter or convey a threat to cause death or bodily harm to any person. It is also an offense to threaten to burn, destroy or damage property or threaten to kill, poison or injure an animal or bird that belongs to a person.”
Breaking the law I see, yet not giving the name of one Jew, with proof, that was killed in a homicidal Nazi gas chamber…
995 kingoflondon
November 24th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
I already said that I am not getting involved in this debate here for the very clear reasons that I already outlined. I am annoyed with myself for getting drawn into it at all. I did not provide any arguments, that is my whole point. I know it’s pointless to talk about it with you. Completely pointless.
All you are winning is a endurance match, but as I predicted you are claiming some kind of victory, talking about weak arguments when I haven’t said anything beyond commenting on your comments on my family. Your post makes no sense in the context of anything I have said here. I am not interested in debating this with you, I never said that I was. Your request to see if I can back up my claim to have previously engaged in debate with holocaust revisionists is entirely stupid, pointless and could not possibly serve to add anything to this entirely futile exchange apart from length.
996 damien_karras
November 24th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
@Lamprecht (996):
Do you do the same “search for undeniable truth” in any other facet of human history? This is an IMPORTANT question I’m asking here. And if you’re as slick as you present yourself here, you’ll know why I’m asking.
997 Davy
November 24th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
1000
998 Davy
November 24th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Damn motherfucker shitfaced bitch!!!
999 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
No, KOL, you do not “Know” that it’s pointless, you ASSUME. You’re stereotyping all “Holocaust deniers” just like you have over and over again, and I have shown that we’re not a homogeneous group.
KOL, I haven’t claimed a victory, do not put words in my mouth. I will say you’re an arrogant coward, and you are.
Not only that, you CONSTANTLY make claims and NEVER support them with facts.
Excuse after excuse – you say your grandpa was vilified but you don’t show us.
You say you debated “Deniers” yet, again, you don’t show us.
You say many things, KOL, and you don’t show us. How’s that search on your family going, did you find out the cause of death or are you just going to continue with your brass assumptions?
1000 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
@Lamprecht (998):
It’s only a threat because I can’t find you
Then, it’d be a promise
AND, since I, unfortunately, suffer from severe Borderline Personality Disorder, BiPolar Disorder; and recurrent Anxiety Disorder; (all documented and treated with nice strong Happy Pills), I’d never even see the inside of a prison . . . just some nice insane asylum somewhere. With flowers.
Here’s a free piece of advice for you, Lampy, don’t fuck with crazy people
1001 Lamprecht
November 24th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
@damien_karras (1000):
When you reply to someone and put words in quotes it generally means they said whatever you quoted.
I did not say I “search for undeniable truth” sir.
But, yes, I do not believe the mainstream version of everything besides the Holocaust.
1002 damien_karras
November 24th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
@Lamprecht (1005):
So you are not searching for undeniable truth about the facts concerning the Holocaust? Be careful here.
1003 GiantFlyingRobo
November 24th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
@Lamprecht (993): Tub Girl-flavored Coke
1004 Bella
November 24th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
I WANT ICE CREAM NOW, DAMN IT!
1005 Bella
November 24th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
I WANT ICE CREAM NOW, DAMN IT!
I SAID NOW!
1006 GiantFlyingRobo
November 24th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
@Lamprecht (996): Jizz smoothies
1007 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I love ice cream
1008 GiantFlyingRobo
November 24th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
@Lamprecht (1003): Fat person tities
1009 Bella
November 24th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
So do I Shannon, so do I.
And I still haven’t gotten any! :O
1010 GiantFlyingRobo
November 24th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
@Lamprecht (1005): Cocksucker
1011 Shannon
November 24th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
@Bella (1014):
That, my lovely lady, is PRECISELY what is wrong with the world today . . . not enough Ice Cream!
If we all had enough ice cream, and not just the plain vanilla and chocolate, but the cool stuff like Pistachio-Almond-Mocha, the world would be a much better and happier place.
1012 Bella
November 24th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
I agree with you 100% Shannon!
But I did end up getting my ice cream.
Very delicious.
1013 segues
November 24th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
@Shannon (1016): I happen to like vanilla ice cream…but it has to be natural vanilla and I like it to have pieces of fresh peaches in it.
Alas, I can’t eat ice cream, but if I could, that’s what I’d eat!
1014 oouchan
November 24th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
@segues (1018):
@Bella (1017):
@Shannon (1016):
I prefer frozen custard myself over ice cream. Hot fudge with almonds. Yummy! (had to share when I saw the posts.)
1015 ianz09
November 24th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
@oouchan (1019): Rainbow sherbet, myself.
1016 jfrater
November 25th, 2009 at 12:01 am
@segues (1018): I am also a vanilla fan – it is the only flavor I buy!
1017 ianz09
November 25th, 2009 at 12:03 am
@Lamprecht (1005): Well, GiantFlyingRobo has been holding up pretty good, but I must contribute. rather than go through and reply to every post, I will simply throw a few long winded ones your way.
Naked hick riding into town on gay donkey for market day
Castrated streaker interrupting a gay wedding between George W. Bush and Han Solo
Three blindfolded midgets searching for fried chicken in a maze on the bottom of the ocean
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Scat Porn
And by the way, your goat crapped on my couch, you can have him back now.
1018 ava
November 25th, 2009 at 12:27 am
@Davy (942): ROFL…YEAH SURE…
1019 ianz09
November 25th, 2009 at 12:30 am
@ava (1023): Assrocket
1020 segues
November 25th, 2009 at 12:39 am
@jfrater (1021): All the best people prefer vanilla!
1021 ava
November 25th, 2009 at 1:08 am
@ianz09 (1024): lol…no doubt…
1022 kingoflondon
November 25th, 2009 at 3:02 am
@Lamprecht
Nothing you are saying makes any sense. All I have stated is that I know it would be pointless to argue like this over the internet, no-one’s mind is going to be changed. You have probably looked back at what I said and seen that I am not entering into this argument, and that my only argument was that it would be pointless for people to engage with you. I assume this is what you mean when you say my arguments are weak. You ask for evidence that I have previously engaged with holocaust deniers over the internet. Why? The only possible outcome would be further pointless discussion and lengthening of this already pointless exchange. It would not lead to a resolution. I’m happy for you to believe me or not, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.
However, my argument was that it would be pointless for people like myself, Randall, Scratch, Shannon etc to engage with people like you, and let me make myself clear what I mean by that, I mean people that argue that the conventional view of the holocaust is wrong.
The only generalisation that I made was that there are people that believe the conventional view of the holocaust is wrong. They hold these views so strongly that they spend many hours of their lives on internet forums discussing them. They will A) not change their views due to anything that anyone says to them on a forum like this, and B) will continue to argue their case indefinitely. In both respects I have been proven correct, so I do not see how my arguments are weak. I was not discussing the holocaust, I was discussing the pointlessness of arguing with people like you (please see previous comment for clarification on what I mean by this) on the internet. Even if I did make my story up, what difference does it make to anything? None whatsoever. This web page is testament to the point I was trying to make.
This is the LAST post I will be making on this page, but before I go, I would just like to address one final thing.
I have a collection of classic 1970s kung fu DVDs, and sometimes I’ll go on forums to discuss movies. I also have a passing interest in a number of other topics – football, basketball, oddly enough I have a weird interest in weather conditions, and I like looking on sites showing what the weather is in different places. Similarly I love lists showing the biggest cities, biggest countries, biggest buildings… anything like that. That’s why I got into this site, and I think it’s generally a great site. I love stupid trivia.
Most of the things I look at on the internet are pretty lame, but they probably reveal a certain amount about my character.
One reason that a lot of people show a degree of animosity towards so-called revisionists is just due to the fact that it is such a sinister thing to show such a massive interest in. I’m not saying that every single revisionist is anti-Semitic, but you just need to see the kind of websites linking to CODOH to get a picture of the kind of people that are interested in this topic. A simple Google search shows links to CODOH from a number of right-wing and openly racist forums and websites. You say you have an interest in the holocaust, but that you are more interested in anthropology etc. However, you can see quite clearly from Google that you have spend what must be hundreds if not thousands of hours on CODOH and other sites talking about this subject. Much more so than I have looking at any of the things that I am interested in on the internet at any rate. This is just going on the number of posts that exist in your name on CODOH, and other places where you have discussed this matter. Even if you yourself do not hold racist views, many of the other people on that site clearly do, and it says something about a person when one of their major pastimes is trying to convince people that the holocaust did not happen in the way that most people believe that it did, and will go to such lengths to do so.
Many times I have heard people question why we pay such attention to the holocaust when there are lots of other tragic events that have occurred in the history of the human race (Russia, China, various Africa countries etc). The reason for this is clear – the holocaust happened in developed, western countries within living memory. As an event it reveals important lessons about human nature, and how educated western people like us can be drawn into holding irrational racist views leading to widespread murder and the destruction of innocent people’s lives. The events in Rwanda for example, are not very easy to relate to for Europeans and people of European decent, such as Americans. It is not a plot for sympathy amongst the Jewish people as a whole. Many of the people that educate others on the Holocaust are not Jewish at all, such as the operators of the fantastic Holocaust memorial centre near Nottingham (which incidentally also raises awareness for Rwanda, and other attempts at genocide). Within Africa, the genocide in Rwanda would be much easier to relate to than the holocaust, and would be a more important lesson for children there to learn.
When you come to understand the true value of teaching people of this warning from history, that is when you will see that to deny the holocaust and engage in the kind of discussions that you are involved with is not only to ignore the voluminous evidence that exists, but is dangerous in that there are easily influenced people out there that will see your site, and will not ‘get’ the important message of the holocaust. Instead they will come to believe that there is some kind of ulterior motive at play, perpetrated by the jews, for reasons of sympathy, or money, or greed, or political gain, or whatever. I do not deny that there are some individual cases amongst the 20 million Jews on this planet that have and would use the holocaust to their advantage, but they are essentially irrelevant in the context of why the holocaust is important, and should not detract from its importance as a warning from history.
You think you can come here, to a popular website, incite an argument and use your well prepared arguments to ‘prove’ your points – sometimes with apparent success as the people that you are arguing with are far from being experts on this matter. You plan to outlast everyone in an endurance match hoping to give the illusion of a victory, with the objective that hopefully a few people will see what you have written and will come to your site where their brainwashing will be completed. I just hope that there aren’t any people out there stupid enough to fall for it.
I’m done.
1023 damien_karras
November 25th, 2009 at 6:10 am
@oouchan (1019):
All’s quiet on the western front. It was the prospect of ice cream which keeps this character at bay! Who knew they had such an unusual Achilles Heel?
1024 Davy
November 25th, 2009 at 7:34 am
@ava (1023): That’s what YOU think.
1025 Scratch
November 25th, 2009 at 8:40 am
kingoflondon,
Well said. This is also my last post directed at Lamprecht.
@Lamprecht
I already demonstrated how Holocaust denial is linked to ideology. Holocaust denial is anti-Semitism. This tends to attract left-wing anti-Zionists, Islamic extremists, and Fascists. Most of the people I have dealt with have been fascists and nazi sympathizers. Those who aren’t fascists are promoting a conspiracy that excuses the crimes of the Nazis.
Your problem is that you subject anything that contradicts your view to a level of ultra-skepticism that really should make you doubt absolutely everything you’re presented with. This skepticism doesn’t make you question everything though, you only question the historical evidence that supports the Holocaust.
History could be done if this warped kind of skepticism were applied universally.
You reserve an extreme brand of skepticism for anything related to the Holocaust. This is why your knee-jerk reaction was to claim that the photograph was fake and that KOL’s family had not been killed in a concentration camp.
Holocaust deniers aren’t taken seriously because they have never done any serious work. It has nothing to do with taboos and everything to do with historical reality. Holocaust Deniers are the academic equivalent of UFO enthusiasts, 9/11 truthers, and bigfoot hunters, except they are motivated by hate and not just conspiratorial insanity.
The photo was cropped, but that was only to focus on the horror of a soldier aiming his gun at a woman carrying a child. Simple. The bottom of the barrel is faded and can’t be seen in the photograph, the barrel actually aimed right at the top of her head. Now there a number of possible explanations why the gun is not aimed lower – the camera angle, the woman may have moved, the soldier may have not finished aiming.
You have admitted that you are not an expert in photography and the only source that you have cited in lamely attempting to debunk it is yourself. You just have a primal need to attack anything that threatens your ideology. This photo clearly shows a Nazi soldier aiming at a woman. It’s horrific, but this type of thing happened all of the time.
Again, the photo does not prove anything. Lol. You Holocaust deniers are all looking for one single proof, when the Holocaust was a series of events over a period of time that resulted in the death of approximately 6 million Jews. There is not a stand-alone proof of this, but there is a mountain of evidence that clearly demonstrates this conclusion.
In order to prove that this photo is a fake you will need evidence – such as the original photographs, the conspirators, or at least evidence of a conspiracy. No Holocaust denier has ever produced verifiable evidence of a cover-up or a conspiracy to fake or exaggerate the Holocaust. The massive amount of forgeries and conspirators that would be needed to do what Holocaust deniers allege would be bound to produce errors. What do the Holocaust deniers have? Nothing. No witness to conspiracy, no proof of forgeries, nothing but warped logic and badly researched “history.”
Again, I never said the quote from Hitler’s Mein Kempf proved the Holocaust. I said it revealed the mindset of a anti-Semite who believed in a Jewish conspiracy and entertained the idea of gassing them. With the other evidence it is quite a revealing quote.
Not all anti-Semites kill Jews, but Hitler certainly did.
The Journal of Historical Review does not entertain serious scholars. It is a joke. Any historian worth his salt would cringe at being published in it. It is not peer reviewed and it will never be taken seriously in Academia.
I’m glad you asked about accepted standards of historiography and Academia because you are clearly unfamiliar with them. Bernard Norling wrote a good introduction for you called “Towards a Better Understanding of History.” The chapter title “What Can We Really Know about History?” should be illuminating. It won’t, but it should be.
Thank you for the book recommendation, but it’s obviously not a serious work. Just glancing at the assortment of contributors is clear evidence of this. Here you go again, citing Holocaust deniers.
No, credentials aren’t everything. Yet, the lack of Holocaust deniers with Ph.d’s in history is telling. History can be done by those who are not experts in the field, but not in the haphazard way that Holocaust deniers do it.
My argument that Holocaust deniers aren’t published in peer-review journals is a legitimate argument. If Holocaust denial has any substance it should be able to hold up to peer review. It can’t and it never will.
Bye. I’ve wasted enough time on you.
1026 Randall
November 25th, 2009 at 8:53 am
@damien_karras (1028):
You defeated the evil with ICE CREAM. I am humbled.
And my faith in the goodness of fatty, creamy desserts is restored and augmented.
And good for all of you, to come here to stand up to the anti-semites. Flinging ice cream at them was an inspiration.
1027 Randall
November 25th, 2009 at 8:55 am
@Scratch (1030):
By god that was well said. Thank you.
1028 Scratch
November 25th, 2009 at 9:37 am
@Randall (1032):
Thank you very much, that means a lot coming from you.
Also, I would like to note that the one line should read “History could *never* be done this way . . .”
1029 Lamprecht
November 25th, 2009 at 11:29 am
@kingoflondon (1027):
KOL, you say they will never change their minds but that is not so – I have seen debates between revisionists and exterminationists and sometimes people change their minds.
Do you know ho Jean-Clade Pressac is?
He WAS a revisionist, but changed his mind and wrote a book on the alleged gas chambers.
But you’re also describing yourself – you will never change your views because you associate them with hate. Since you do not hate Jews, you can’t possibly ‘deny the Holocaust’ – although I’m a living example of someone who doesn’t hate Jews that thinks the Holocaust is exaggerated, but others will make unsupportable claims that I do hate Jews.
Laughable.
I pay attention to the Holocaust because it’s probably the most construed point in history that I know of. I didn’t randomly choose a genocide to deny, KOL, I researched a lot and came to a conclusion. I also believe the Dark Ages were exaggerated, it’s not just the Holocaust.
KOL, do not try to justify lying as if it was a lesson to teach. I don’t care about what lessons it teaches, there are numerous other genocides to talk about.
If it’s a lie it’s a lie and I refuse to knowingly believe a lie, no matter what it is.
1030 Lamprecht
November 25th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
@Scratch (1030):
Scratch, you oddly claim that you demostrated how Holocaust “Denial” is linked to ideology.
You never did. Not once did you show how I was anti-Semitic or how a historical belief has anything to do with ideology.
You can name people all you want as “Proof” but it isn’t. There is no actual link between historical belief and ideological belief – someone has to make it themselves and there’s no proof at all that each holocaust revisionist has.
And even if they did, it doesn’t matter at all.
You say “MOST” of the people you have dealth with are fascists and nazi sypathizers – however, knowing you, you probably labeled them such with no actual basis just as it has happened to me.
Again, you lie. I haven’t said that I only question the Holocaust – I’ve said otherwise.
I question many things generally believed pertaining to my anthropological beliefs as well as my historical hobbies. I, in a way, “Deny” the Dark Ages because I think that the claims are heavily exaggerated.
None of that matters though.
Holocaust “Deniers” aren’t ever taken seriously because they don’t do serious work?
Actually, that is not so. There are various quotes by professors and other academics praising revisionist works.
The photograph is not anything new, Scratch. I’ve seen it many times and it is fake. KOL didn’t specify how they died, I simply asked how they did and how he knew. You took that to an extreme – an emotional extreme, not a logical one.
Scratch, you’re an example of how emotion clouds logic – I generally research the Holocaust, and all of history for that matter, with no emotion whatsoever. It gets in the way of logical thinking. If you’re so centered around the belief that doubting the Holocaust is ‘hate’ then you will never doubt it, even if it was exaggerated.
The barrel is visible with the larger photographs I have given. He is aiming barely touching her head or above it.
The shadows, as I have said, are wrong. I don’t have to be a photography expert to point that out, I see shadows every day and so do you.
There are outlines on the woman that are indicative of forgery. Ignore them all you want, they won’t go away.
Not only that, we don’t know who is shooting or who is being shot or WHY.
Serious question: Are you blind or do you have functioning eyes?
Really, it’s clear: the woman has no shadows on her face, neck, and legs compared to the soldier.
Why do Holocaust photos generally have these errors?
I also pointed out many other contradictions and inconsistencies with the photograph which you conveniently ignored.
Scratch, there is no “Mountain of evidence” because if there was you would have posted it at CODOH.
Scratch, I do not need any originals or anything of that nature, the inconsistent sizes, the inconsistent shadows, and various other things are evident that it is fake.
Various forgeries we have proof for, Scratch. See some examples:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcffor.html
There are many moer though.
Again, Scratchm I never said Hitler didn’t hate Jews with a passion. I didn’t think anyone did.
There was no reason to give that quote, sir.
You can call the journal whatever you want, Scratch, it doesn’t make up for the lack of refutations.
I am not unfamiliar with standards of historiography and academia, Scratch, do not lie so much in one post. I personally didn’t see how the books and articles written by reivisionists apply.
There is nothing about Norling’s work that suggests the written work by revisionists is not enough.
Not only that, you ignore that it’s irrelevant. An argument is not any weaker or stronger based on where it was published or critiqued.
Sorry, Scratch, but what the hell did you expect? A book on Holocaust revision with a lot of revisionist authors?
Scratch, are you really trying to pull that off as logical?
What’s wrong with a “Holocaust denier” Scratch? Is there something about every single one cited that makes them immediately wrong?
There isn’t a lack of revisionsits with PhD’s in history. I have named a few and ther are many skills required to debate the Holocaust. There are engineers, chemists, statisticians, and many more, all with credentials and all are equipped with skills required for scholary work.
It’s funny how you want to read about holocaust revisionism but refuse to read anything by revisionists.
Holocaust “Denial” can hold up to peer review, sir. The interesting point is that nobody will accept such a tabooed subject. A revisionist paper or article submitted for peer review will not be treated like any other historical paper. Once suspected or identified as “denying the holocaust” one can expect any of the following:
1. That it will not be accepted for peer review.
2. That, if it is reviewed by orthodox historian, the review will be biased.
3. That if someone knows the author persecution or repercushion may follow in the case that it’s illegal in that country.
4. That the review will not be published nor will the act of review be made known.
The demand for peer review is futile and, anyway, any attempted refutation is quite a review itself.
Revisionist literature is often peer reviewed by other revisionists. What’s wrong with that, sir? Exterminationist literature is peer reviewed by exterminationists, is there a double standard at play?
OBTW, Scratch, do you have any proof that I am a “Racist” or “Antisemite” or “neo-Nazi” etc?
1031 Lamprecht
November 25th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
“Natural sciences [and other disciplines as well] are an extremely conservative and dogmatic matter. Any corroboration of a paradigm is welcome, whereas any innovation or revision will long meet with resistance; the instinct for preservation (including self-preservation!) is stronger than the search for truth. Therefore, new findings usually gain acceptance only when sufficient numbers of researchers stand up for them: then the dogmatic status quo topples, a ‘scientific revolution’ occurs, a new paradigm replaces the old….
The bottom line is that no student, no researcher and no layman should believe any facts to be ‘conclusively proven’, even if the textbooks present them as such….”
- Professor Walter Nagl, Ph.D., Gentechnologie und Grenzen der Biologie, Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, Darmstadt 1987, p. 126f.
“The error [of numbers of Auschwitz victims], though committed a long time ago and by others, remains tendentious. And it was ‘our’ error, if ‘our’ refers to the enemies of fascism and racism. […]
I admit that it is sometimes necessary to conceal the truth – i.e., to lie – at times even for noble reasons, for example out of pity or tact. But it is always profitable to know why one does so,
and what such deviations from the truth entail […].
While truth is not always good, lies are much more often evil […].”
- Ernest Skalski, Der Spiegel, no. 30/1990, p. 111
“A democracy requires free citizens who are willing to say publicly unpopular things to provoke critical debate.”
- Robert Reich, Los Angeles Times, May 13, 1998, p. B13
1032 crispin
November 25th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
@Lamprecht (1036): Dude, seriously, no one buys your bullshit. Not one person on here (that you have not fabricated up yourself) agrees with you. Go back to your precious revisionist forums and pretend you’re not scum. I still haven’t heard you address why you have such an interest in this issue. It’s really quite sickening. I know I’m not the first to request your immediate absence from this site, but seriously, get the fuck out of here. No one puts any stock in anything you have to say, and you’ll never convince anyone otherwise.
1033 ianz09
November 25th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
@Lamprecht (1036): Don’t worry, Lamprecht, all these assholes may be done replying to you, but rest assured, you are worth my time and my words.
Shit-stained banana hammock
1034 Bella
November 25th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
@segues: I agree with the vanilla
But why can’t you have ice cream?
1035 segues
November 25th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
@Bella (1039): “But why can’t you have ice cream?”
Allergies, Bella. I am allergic to many, many foods and, unfortunately, lactose is one of the worst.
1036 Bella
November 25th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
@segues: That’s horrible!
Sorry to hear that!
1037 segues
November 25th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
@Bella (1041): Thanks. It’s a problem, I will admit. The worst allergy is to high fructose corn syrup. HFCS is in everything! I have to read every label, even things you’d swear wouldn’t have it in them, have it. Legumes come in second. Not just peanuts, but all legumes…beans of any sort. And meat.
lol! There’s other stuff that I’m sensitive to, but it just becomes absurd. I find it all pretty funny at this point.
1038 fags
November 25th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
last.
1039 Bella
November 25th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
@segues: Whoa! That’s crazy! What CAN you eat then?
1040 segues
November 25th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
@Bella (1044): Fresh fruit, most fresh vegetables (barring legumes), chicken, non-fatty fish. I eat lots of apples and rice cakes, and drink water and loose tea from Stash (I buy in bulk).
And that’s it.
1041 lokewl
November 26th, 2009 at 12:04 am
what? no vegetarian vs meat eaters?
1042 ianz09
November 26th, 2009 at 12:06 am
@segues (1045): Boy, I thought I had it bad! Peanuts, tree nuts, shellfish and soy. Got an EpiPen in my pocket at all times!
1043 ava
November 26th, 2009 at 1:19 am
@lokewl (1046): I’m vegetarian…we can start up another debate if you like…lol…
1044 segues
November 26th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
@ianz09 (1047): It’s easy to get use to the diet, but soooo easy to slip up, too!
If I were allergic to soy, half of my diet would disappear overnight!
1045 ianz09
November 26th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
@segues (1049): I know, you have to watch everything! There are peanut warnings on some really odd stuff. But you have be on the ball with caution, I imagine, with as many allergies as you have!
1046 segues
November 26th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
@ianz09 (1050): My husband and I read every label and ask questions of waitpeople in restaurants, as I’m sure you do. I just think of them as a slight inconvenience, and have learned to enjoy what I can eat without danger.
Now, since I know everyone is here, I need to make an announcement. Tomorrow I will be busy making the last minute arrangements for a 10 day shoot. I leave early Saturday a.m., so I won’t be around. Although I’ll have my laptop with me for other reasons, the internet is not available where I am going.
I may check-in tomorrow evening, if time permits, but everyone have a lovely time, play nice, and I’ll see you when I am through shooting.
ta!
1047 astraya
November 26th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
That seems to have thrashed the holocaust issue (pro and con) to death, with no-one changing their mind, or moderating their stance or making the slightest concession.
What’s next? There are nine more to choose from.
segue: safe trip!
1048 Kadaj
November 26th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Over 1k comment holy fuckin shit!!!!!!
1049 joe the egg
November 28th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
This list is ironic
1050 Egg
November 29th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Too many of these overlap.
Gun control, abortion, and middle east should be stuck under politics. Jesus Christ should be stuck under religion.
So truly, there are only 6 different things on the list – not ten.
But virtually no topics are off-limits if both people are mature, understanding, respectful, and open minded.
1051 ianz09
November 29th, 2009 at 10:33 am
@Egg (1055): Obviously, you are new to the Internet.
But virtually no topics are off-limits if both people are mature, understanding, respectful, and open minded.
Case and point.
1052 Egg
November 29th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
@ianz09 (1056):
Ultimately, I choose not to converse with people online who are not mature, respectful, understanding, and open-minded.
1053 ianz09
November 29th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
@Egg (1057): Yeah, but that’s pretty damn hard, man.
1054 Evil Taco
November 29th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
umm… jesus is part of religion. You repeated yourself.
How about legalization of drugs? Universal health care? And why is gay marriage so low on the list?
1055 ItsJustJake
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:32 am
There is no such thing as a topic which should NEVER be discussed. Every item on your list can and should be talked about – in the right company. That is the key – and a random Internet Forum is almost never the right place.
Once people DO start talking about one of these subjects, the anonymous nature of the Internet brings out the worst in people, and our inability perceive the Tone and Body Language of plain text leads to miscommunication and misinterpretation.
However, simply stating that certain things should “never” be discussed is oversimplifying the matter to the wrong extreme.
Those items should always be discussed if people want to do so.
Anyway – there is only one topic that should never be discussed, and that’s … **DROP CARRIER**
1056 GJ
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:54 am
@jes (295): good call good call
1057 Noah Balboa
December 3rd, 2009 at 7:18 am
BearGloves #24…………………nobody on earth cares about what you think. ok? Only Jesus. jump on the bandwagon before it’s too late.
1058 Noah Balboa
December 3rd, 2009 at 7:23 am
That is sure one real bad picture of jesus. That is not jesus. jesus was a strong carpenter who could kick all of your butts. that is a catholic wimp jesus. That looks like a homosexual.
1059 The Illustrious One
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:36 pm
8======================>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>”
1060 justcurious1
December 5th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Where’s health care?
1061 petiedutch
December 6th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
I’d just like to note, Atheism is NOT A RELIGION as #1 frankly states, and NO ONE has EVER used Atheism as a reason to kill people. Atheism is simply lack of belief, so PISS OFF!
1062 Ned
December 7th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Anyone who thinks that homosexuality is a choice must be at least bisexual. Most religious people I talk to believe that homosexuality is a choice. I understand why they say it. It is because they don’t believe that god could have created a person to be homosexual. But I wonder if they really believe that they themselves have the ability to choose which gender they will have sex with at any time. Like I say, if they are bisexual I can buy it, but if they are straight? I know I have no choice in the matter, there’s no way on earth that I could freely decide to go out and start sucking dick tonight.
1063 hoobajoob
December 8th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
this could be a list of things not to talk about when you’re drunk or at the pub, too.
1064 GiantFlyingRobo
December 8th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
@petiedutch (1066): Oh, of course! The defining aspect of religion is that people use it as an excuse to kill people! All my dictionaries have been wrong! I knew those bastards were lying to me!
1065 Emerald_Absinthe
December 29th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
ROFL.
It’s really ironic that a list saying what NOT do discuss online reminds people of those exact things and they start insulting each other again.
Like saying “don’t think of a pink elephant!” and everyone thinks of it as it’s mentioned.
But actually I’ve had lots of interesting discussions on these topics in RL and on the internet (but you shouldn’t write them where every troll can comment as a guest) and my best friends are not those who agree with me, but those who either have their own original opinion and arguments, or can live with the fact that mine is different.
I think this is where you can recognize those people who have real arguments – they don’t need to insult everyone.
1066 Ted
January 7th, 2010 at 10:57 am
If it weren’t for these 10 topics, the internet would only have 20 – 30 total users worldwide. Your advice is to practice cowardice by silence so error can dominate. You are an Obamist for certain.
1067 anthony
January 9th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
yeah fuck this, the internet is the tool through which democracy is going to be exercised for the rest of time. it’s also the new public forum. so whoever wrote this, sorry but i think you are seriously compromising the future with this backwards way of thinking and please stop thank you.
1068 Olle
February 13th, 2010 at 2:44 am
What on earth are the facts you say the creationists have to back up their story?
1069 MChris
February 15th, 2010 at 7:15 am
Wow… 3 months later and comments still getting posted. Guess the lister was right about these topics generating controversy. Over a 1,000 comments of controversy on the controversy topic.
1070 katerinaelaena
February 21st, 2010 at 4:59 pm
@Bearglove (24):
Wht’s your problem? just…STOP.
1071 katerinaelaena
February 21st, 2010 at 5:11 pm
@Bearglove (24): Actually, i think that was an instant reaction since you were the first person on the list to start giving your opinion on everything. I apologize, considering many people in the comments started debates with their own “opinion”
1072 stanislavl13
March 29th, 2010 at 5:16 am
religious fanatics are the most annoying people on the internets constantly advertising their religion or warning people about the apocalypse
1073 blacknright
April 6th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
religious fanatics are the most annoying people on the internets constantly advertising their religion or warning people about the apocalypse.
I tell you what since you don’t like being warned about impending catastrophes, if I see a man with a gun headed your direction or a big ol’ tidal wave about to crash down on you, I won’t warn you and you can die a nice painful death, how will that suit you?
Now rather you believe the apocalypse is coming or not, it is coming and it is our duty to warn people so they can start waking up and taking care of the most important things in their life. You can say, “Well I don’t believe in God.” doesn’t change anything. You can say, “I don’t believe in gravity.” Doesn’t mean if you jump off that roof that you are not going to end up roadkill. Gravity doesn’t have to have you believe in it for you to be bound by its laws. God is the same way. You are bound by His laws whether you believe in him or not. However, unlike gravity which doesn’t give you much of a choice, God does. You can walk away but you have to pay the consequences. You can have a relationship with him and there will be consequences for that too, but in this case the “consequences” are blessings. But it is all on you.
1074 saber25
April 11th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
Wow, a thousand comments
1075 Lk
April 19th, 2010 at 3:33 am
Simple. They are social taboos because people usually don’t RESPECT others’ opinions. In their dictionary, respect means accepting others’ opinions but for me, it’s not. Respecting others doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to accept the idea.
Just my two cents.
1076 crasher
April 26th, 2010 at 11:49 am
The list says “Top 10 Things You Should Never Discuss Online” ya morons.
1077 Aurell
May 4th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
@blacknright [1078]:
now THIS is why you should never discuss religion online.
oh god..
1078 anon
May 15th, 2010 at 1:37 am
No way. Talking about this sort of stuff is what the internet is for.
1079 LiBi
May 21st, 2010 at 3:37 pm
and what we supposed to talk about? Weather?
FFS, if people thought this way, that there are subjects that should be taboo, we would still live in caves :/
1080 misha
June 13th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
they're already doing that silly
1081 Felipe
June 24th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Yep, missed gun control, but the "add space so my mesage is noticed" part was a nice touch. I really hate when some dumbass does that.
1082 It's true
June 24th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
No one does.
1083 littlegoldwoman
June 30th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
Thanks for not putting Yeshua in with religion. Hes so much more.
1084 Torbjörn
July 1st, 2010 at 1:28 pm
I would like to say that thees are things you can't discuss over the internet with AMERICANS. I come from Sweden, and back there only number 3 and 1 can be considered things you should not discuss over the net. And number 1 only if it is about the Davidistic beliefs (especially if it concerns Islam).
1085 Tribol
July 18th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
u forgot about music
1086
July 25th, 2010 at 1:31 am
Well, I can clearly see from these comments the horror of human nature. People believe that humans can live just and honest lives, but that is impossible. Jesus himself grew angry and became violent (this is a little hypocritical of me, as I'm not religious). This post was intended to be helpful; it's just ironic how everyone is now arguing over these topics.
Just a few things to point out:
1. The Germans don't really feel guilty, because Hitler was Austrian.
2. Homosexuality isn't genetic, it's environmental.
3. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
4. There is a lot of scientific proof for evolution; none whatsoever for God creating humans.
1087 lkjhte
July 28th, 2010 at 7:28 am
bullshit this is the internet
1088 Gem
July 29th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
I thouroughly LOVE discussing all of these in chats/games/online
mostly because I don't care if people are offended by my opinions.. if you're offended that is your fault.. and your problem. not mine.
and sometimes, depending on the kind of day I've had… I admit I kind of enjoy watching the ragefags get all nutted up over someone controversial I might have said.
opinions have no place on the internet… but it can be pretty fun to express them anyway.
1089 TheNardDog
August 5th, 2010 at 9:29 am
These discussions are all fun and all but really:
Is Hillary Swank hot?
1090 blaat
August 6th, 2010 at 8:14 am
You're stupid list only applies to the US. Once you introduce christian fundamentalists into the discussion you might aswell better stop since they simply ignore or talk side-by-side. 9-8-6-2-1 are anti-christian. 7 and 4 are all blasts for the past. How can that be fuzzy. 5 is just politics in disguise.
1091 vijay
August 13th, 2010 at 4:57 am
hi good evinig
i love you
1092 Top Kill
August 23rd, 2010 at 4:51 am
The Holocaust did not happen. Maybe it should happen now so that CNN can record it and put the video in their archives for future generations to be entertained horror movie style. I hear the nazis used to do experiments on the paranormal (ghosts and shit). Top Kill doesnt mix with ghosts.
1093 David
August 27th, 2010 at 12:16 am
it actually is a fact……deff not patchy.
1094 Josh
August 29th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Actually, Evolution is not fact. its a scientific theory, which means that its been proven possible. its not a law, like gravity, which IS fact.
1095 dd35
August 30th, 2010 at 3:06 am
"People bitching about people bitching about the music"
So you are bitching about people bitching about people bitching about music?
And I am bitching about a person bitching about people bitching about people bitching about music.