Top 10 Men Who Were Really Women
Published on September 4, 2008 - 133 Comments
In modern days, transvestitism (dressing as a member of the opposite sex) has become a fairly commonplace occurrence. But in the past it was not only frowned upon, it was often seen as sinful. Due to laws which prevented women from performing in various parts of society, some women decided to live their lives as men. Some had successful lives, while others suffered as a consequence. Saint Joan of Arc dressed as a man to protect her virginity whilst living amongst soldiers and it proved to be her downfall when a kangaroo court found her guilty of heresy and executed her. But Saint Joan was not out to deceive and her trial was overturned and her good name restored. Unfortunately this was not true for some women in the past. For this list I have selected women who sought to disguise their true sex completely; that excludes the likes of George Sands who was known to be a woman and caused scandal by her transvestitism, and the female pirates Anne Bonny and Mary Read as their crews knew they were women.

Teena Brandon was born in 1972 in Lincoln, Nebraska. As a child she was regarded as a tomboy and everyone called her Brandon. After being sexually abused by a male relative, she moved to Richardson County, Nebraska and began to live entirely as a male. She became friends with two ex convicts John Lotter and Marvin “Tom” Nissen. She also began dating a woman (Lana Tisdel). None of her friends knew she was female. On December 15th, Brandon was jailed for forging checks and his girlfriend, Lana, bailed him out. Because Brandon was in the women’s section of the prison, Lana discovered her true sex. According to Lana she stopped “dating” Brandon at this time. When Brandon’s arrest was published in the paper under her proper name, Lotter and Nissen discovered the truth. They raped Brandon and beat her. Brandon went to the police but a large number of administrative errors resulted in her case not being investigated. Eventually Lotter and Nissen would go on to shoot Brandon and two others who were hiding her. Lotter was sentenced to death and Nissen to life imprisonment. The story of Brandon Teena became the subject of the Academy award winning film, Boys Don’t Cry. Brandon is pictured above on the right.

James Gray was born Hannah Snell in 1723 in Worcester, England. As a child she played soldiers, but was otherwise seen as a normal young girl. In 1744 she married James Summs, and two years later gave birth to a daughter. Within a year her daughter had died and her husband had deserted her. She borrowed a man’s suit from her brother-in-law James Gray whose name she assumed. She began to travel, trying to find her husband who she later discovered had been executed for murder. She traveled to Portsmouth and joined the Royal Marines. She was sent in to battle twice, during which time she was wounded 11 times in the legs and once in the groin. It is not known how she concealed her sex when her groin wound was treated. In 1750 her unit returned to England and she revealed her true sex to her shipmates. She told her story to the papers and petitioned for a military pension which was, surprisingly, granted. Her military service was officially recognized and she eventually opened a pub called the “The Female Warrior”. She eventually remarried and had two children. Hannah died in 1792.
Petter Hagberg (Brita Nilsdotter) was born in 1756 in Finnerödja, Sweden. In 1785 she married Anders Peter Hagberg who was a soldier of the guard. Shortly after the marriage he was called away to participate in the Russo-Swedish war (1788 - 1790). At a loss without her husband, Brita dressed herself as a man and enlisted in the army to find him. She participated in the Battle of Svensksund (pictured above) and the Battle of Vyborg Bay as a marine. During her time there her commanding officer called out the name “Hagberg” and both she and her husband stepped forward - she found him at last. The two kept her sex a secret. Later, at the battle of Björkö Sund, Brita was wounded and ordered below deck to have her wounds taken care of. She went unwillingly and her sex was revealed. After the war she was given a pension (unheard of at the time) and was granted a license to trade (also unheard of for a married woman). She was awarded a medal of bravery and given a military funeral.

Albert Cashier was born Jennie Irene Hodgers in 1843. In 1862, Hodgers disguised herself as a man and enlisted in the 95th Illinois Infantry Regiment under the name Albert Cashier. The regiment was under Ulysses S. Grant and fought in over 40 battles. Cashier managed to remain undetected as the other soldiers thought she was just small and preferred to be alone. Cashier was captured in battle but managed to escape back to Union lines after overpowering a guard. She fought with the regiment through the war until 1865. After the war, Cashier continued to live as a male, convincing everyone around her. For forty years Cashier worked as a church janitor, cemetery worker and street lamplighter, she voted as a man, and claimed a veterans pension. In 1910, she was hit by a car and broke her leg. A doctor discovered her secret but agreed to keep quiet. in 1911, Cashier moved to a soldier’s retirement home. After her mind began to deteriorate, attendants gave her a bath and discovered her true sex. She was forced to wear a dress from that time on. Cashier died in 1915 and was buried in her military garb. Her tombstone carried the words: “Albert D. J. Cashier, Co. G, 95 Ill. Inf.” - when she was finally traced back to Jennie Hodgers, a second tombstone was erected with both names on it.
Marinus was born Marina in the 6th century. Her father wanted to join a monastery (Monastery of Qannoubine, in the Holy Valley, Lebanon) so he took his daughter - disguised as a boy - with him. Both were admitted and became monks. After living in the monastery for a number of years, it became necessary for both father and daughter to travel. Whilst staying at an inn, the innkeeper’s wayward daughter was attracted to Brother Marinus and tried to seduce her. When Marinus refused the advances, the innkeeper’s daughter claimed that “he” had seduced her and she was pregnant. Marinus refused to debunk the claims by showing that she was, in fact, female, and she was kicked out of the monastery. She lived outside the monastery walls begging. To make matters worse, Marinus was forced to take custody of the child and raise him. She remained there, raising the child, performing harsh penances, and undertaking menial jobs. It was not until her death that her sex was finally revealed. Marinus is revered as a saint in the Roman Catholic, and Orthodox Churches. She is known as Saint Marina the Monk. St Marina is pictured above in red.
Denis Smith (Born Dorothy Lawrence) was an English reporter who disguised herself as a man to go undercover during World War I. Dorothy, 19, was living in Paris and wanted to be a war reporter - something that was impossible due to her sex, and the difficulty that even males were having at the time getting to the front lines as journalists. She persuaded two young English soldiers to give her a uniform; she had her hair cut short in a military style, and colored her skin with diluted furniture polish to give it a bronzed look. With forged identity papers as Private Denis Smith of the 1st Bn, Leicestershire Regiment, she cycled to the Somme - and the front lines. A friend found her work as a Sapper with the British Expeditionary Force - laying mines under constant fire. He also found her an abandoned cottage to sleep in at night. After 10 days, she became worried that if her sex were discovered, the men who had helped her would be in danger. She presented herself to the company chiefs and was placed under arrest. She was interrogated as a spy and declared a prisoner of war. The military were concerned that if her story got out, other women would try to enter the army in disguise. Dorothy was compelled to sign an affidavit that she would not tell her story. When she returned to London she was unable to work due to the affidavit. When the war ended she wrote her story but the war office censored it and it would not come out until many years later. In 1925, Dorothy was institutionalized as insane and she died at Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum in 1964.
Malinda Blalock was a female soldier during the American Civil War who fought bravely on both sides. When the war started, rather than be separated from her husband Keith, she decided to disguise herself as a man and join the army too. She was officially registered on March 20, 1862, as “Samuel ‘Sammy’ Blalock” - claiming to be the older brother of her husband. Her registration papers are one of the few surviving records of female soldiers in the Civil War. Malinda was a good soldier and her identity was never revealed. One of the army surgeons said of her: “She drilled and did the duties of a soldier as any other member of the Company, and was very adept at learning the manual and drill.” Eventually the couple deserted from the army.
James Barry (born 1792-1795) was a military surgeon in the British Army, and by the end of his career was Inspector General in charge of military hospitals. He served in South Africa and India. Among his accomplishments was the first successful cesarean section in Africa by a British surgeon, in which both the mother and child survived the operation. James Barry was born Margaret Ann Bulkley and is, therefore, the first female Briton to become a qualified medical doctor. It is believed that Bulkley took on the role of a man in order to achieve her dreams of working in medicine - a dream that could not be fulfilled if she remained a woman. Letters reveal that there may have been a conspiracy by Barry’s mother and uncles to get him in to medical school. He died from dysentery July 25, 1865 and apparently the charwoman who took care of the body, Sophia Bishop, was the first to discover his female body, and revealed the truth after the funeral. Afterwards many people claimed to “have known it all along”. The British Army sealed his records for 100 years. James is pictured above on the left.

Charles-Geneviève-Louis-Auguste-André-Timothée d’Éon de Beaumont (try saying that three times fast!) was born in 1728 in France. D’Eon was born a female but lived the first half of her life as a man. D’Eon’s autobiography states that she was raised as a boy because her father could only inherit money from his in-laws if he had a son. As was usual for the day, because her family were nobles without a title, they styled themselves as “Chevalier” - meaning “Knight”. In 1756, d’Eon joined the spy service of King Louis XV and traveled on a secret mission to Russia to meet the Empress Elizabeth. In 1761, d’Éon returned to France. The next year she became a captain of dragoons under the Marshal de Broglie and fought in the later stages of the Seven Years’ War. She was wounded and received the Order of Saint-Louis. She was eventually granted a pension and lived in political exile in London. As part of her negotiation with the crown of King Louis XVI, she was told she could return to France but would have to live as a woman - an offer she accepted because the King offered to pay for her new clothes. She lived out the rest of her life as a woman.

Billy Tipton (born Dorothy Lucille Tipton in 1914) was an American jazz pianist and saxophonist. In 1933, she began her career as a musician in various small Oklahoma bars. As time passed Tipton began to associate with her father’s name Billy and eventually she began to present herself as male by breast-binding and packing. At first Tipton appeared male only in performances, but by 1940 she was living entirely as a male. She ultimately gained great success as a musician and went on to record a series of very popular albums. Tipton had a number of lesbian relationships during which he was able to keep his sex concealed. She eventually had a long term relationship with a woman - concealing his sex the whole time - and they adopted three sons. She was described as “a good father who loved to go on scouting camps”. In 1989, at the age of 74, Tipton died. It was not until then that the coroner revealed to her family and friends that she was, in fact, a woman.
Notable Omissions: Deborah Sampson, Ulrika Eleonora Stålhammar, Lisbetha Olsdotter, Mollie Bean, Florena Budwin, Camilla Lyman, Anne Bonny (Pirate), Mary Read (Pirate), Helen Clark.
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1. Roneyr - September 5th, 2008 at 3:56 am
Great List and
2. Roneyr - September 5th, 2008 at 3:57 am
an Insight to some Wo-Men
3. fuxnix - September 5th, 2008 at 4:03 am
awesome list!
oh yea how about thomas bettie th pregnant man should he/she be included in the list too?
4. By The Time - September 5th, 2008 at 4:05 am
by the time i type this 2 comments will have been posted
5. carpe_noctem - September 5th, 2008 at 4:14 am
We’re all proud of your insight By The Time…
Great list Jamie! That’s one thing people will always love about your site, you get stuff that doesn’t exist anywhere else on the internet!
6. rushfan - September 5th, 2008 at 4:15 am
Great list. I agree about Bettie, I’m so sick of hearing “a man had a baby!” It’s a chick who became a dude but still had her lady parts so she could still get pregnant! It’s not a pregnant man!
7. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 4:20 am
Just wait for the next one - top 10 women who were really men - that gets a little uncomfortable I tell you!
8. Rusty - September 5th, 2008 at 4:23 am
Come now. Jamie, Helen doesn’t qualify as a woman pretending to be male and it’s Top 10 Men Who WERE Really Women, and she is not deceased, actually or politically, yet. Enough with the in jokes, she will do a better job than any of the (four) Americans will!
9. thematic - September 5th, 2008 at 4:27 am
Excelent list. Well done, I am impressed with this one it makes me wonder about some of my colleagues lol.
10. Spocker - September 5th, 2008 at 4:32 am
Great list!
My question is, how did these women hide their “Japanese flag”?
11. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 4:33 am
rusty - the only thing she will do better is squash our freedoms! I must say though, I am rather pleased my discreet joke did not fall on deaf ears - you made my day - thanks
12. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 4:38 am
spocker - from my research today it appears that there was a lot of sex with the lights off and old fashioned clumsiness. Just wait for the next list in which one man hid his sex from his “husband” for 20 years AND produced him a child!
13. Phil - September 5th, 2008 at 4:57 am
oo a list teaser
14. Ashar Ali - September 5th, 2008 at 5:10 am
they were probably lesbians
15. gav - September 5th, 2008 at 5:12 am
i wonder if they had to constantly speak with a deeper voice?
16. warrrreagl - September 5th, 2008 at 5:39 am
Jamie, I feel your pain at all the problems you must have faced with gender pronouns on this list.
I also recently visited a Blackbeard museum and have become fascinated with two of your notable omissions - Anne Bonny and Mary Read.
17. SoCalJeff - September 5th, 2008 at 5:46 am
The Billy Tipton story is amazing. Have never heard it before. I do wonder how her family felt after her real sex was revealed. I can’t help but think they must have felt a degree of betrayal.
18. Tempyra - September 5th, 2008 at 6:02 am
This is a pretty awesome list, I’m looking forward to the ‘Women Who Were Really Men’ version.
19. warningdontreadthis - September 5th, 2008 at 6:22 am
Man I’ve missed listverse.
Really good list jfrater. You should be proud
20. AmazingThor - September 5th, 2008 at 7:04 am
How do you conceal your gender from your spouse? I guess they did it with the lights off
Also, wasn’t there a pope that was revealed to be a woman when “he” gave birth?
21. Brianne - September 5th, 2008 at 7:06 am
“Great list!
My question is, how did these women hide their ‘Japanese flag’?”
If you mean period…well, I think if someone’s close enough to see blood, they already know.
22. MzFly - September 5th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Good list! The subject is one I am very curious about and this opened my eyes to some cases I hadn’t known previously. Great Job as usual!
23. Crut - September 5th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Awesome list.
24. copperdragon - September 5th, 2008 at 7:34 am
a vote for Fa Mulan. pretty sure she was true historical personality. definitely deserves to be listed.
25. oose85 - September 5th, 2008 at 7:36 am
My only question is that the intro said:
“For this list I have selected women who sought to disguise their true sex completely; that excludes the likes of George Sands who was known to be a woman and caused scandal by her transvestitism, and the female pirates Anne Bonny and Mary Read as their crews knew they were women.”
Yet Anne Bonny and Mary Read are notable omissions?
26. Sakkodo - September 5th, 2008 at 7:43 am
The Chevalier d’Éon was a man, not a woman, even though he spent half of his life dressed as a woman.There was so much speculation concerning his sex that an autopsy was performed after his death, leaving no doubt.
27. smurff - September 5th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Great list as always - they must all have been flat chested
28. ravthewave - September 5th, 2008 at 8:00 am
How does one conceal their sex while in a relationship for years and have kids in the mix? I just dont see how Tipton’s companion had no idea…
29. trojan_man - September 5th, 2008 at 8:29 am
jfrater: Where is Janet Reno in this list?
30. Blogball - September 5th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Wow, this must have taken forever to research and put together.
Thanks for another one of kind list on listverse jfrater. Very interesting to say the least.
31. heavybison - September 5th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Great List…
32. Tara - September 5th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Good list, very accurate and largely respectful. However, Many of these Men were in their hearts and minds really men. Not all mind you.
33. segue - September 5th, 2008 at 10:03 am
I can’t imagine pulling something like this off for a week, let alone a lifetime!
I suppose one must have the right bone structure to even consider trying to fool the general public, let alone a spouse (my bone structure wouldn’t allow me to fool the dog). And then, why would you want to?
I get the important reasons Jamie gave, going into medicine for example, or the arts, but just for the chance to kill someone, or be killed?
That doesn’t jive.
Maybe I live in a world so removed from reality that these things shock me. If so, give me my world any time. Reality is too harsh for me.
34. Saint Splattergut - September 5th, 2008 at 10:04 am
If Tipson was so comfortable with his identity to live out most of his life as male, I think his relationships would have been ’straight’. Unconventional, but straight.
I feel so sad for the two women who’ve gone insane… James Gray totally pwned and Lawrence (5) only wanted to get the news. And she went through hell for it too.
35. Cubone - September 5th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Very interesting list! Excellent!
36. Tara - September 5th, 2008 at 10:26 am
@segue
People do it every day. Transsexuals all over the world live without anyone knowing.
37. Craig - September 5th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Is that Notable ommission “Helen Clark” is that our New Zealand prime minister.
Nice list
38. Cedestra - September 5th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Great list! I always enjoy people blurring the lines between genders. I think it’s interesting and courageous, but mostly in that sense that they were fighting or lying for social equality.
The only person I thought of that wasn’t on the list was James Triptree Jr., but that was just a pseudonym used by a woman to get her science fiction stories published. I’m sure that happened more frequently and she didn’t live as a man.
39. Chalkwhite - September 5th, 2008 at 11:06 am
May not fit the whole theme of the list, but James Tiptree, Jr. deserves some love as a woman pretending to be a man to get ahead in society.
40. scene - September 5th, 2008 at 11:24 am
why is everything take place during the war time??
41. Savanti Romero - September 5th, 2008 at 11:38 am
What about Deborah Sampson aka Robert Shurtliff. The first known American woman to impersonate a man in order to join the Army and take part in combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson
42. rushfan - September 5th, 2008 at 11:41 am
she looks like John Lithgow
43. JayArr - September 5th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Spocker(10) - it’s easy… just don’t ‘wave the flag’ in the drinking water!
44. JayArr - September 5th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Scene(40) - mostly because the human experience has been naught other than a long series of wars…
45. Mystic_Pearl - September 5th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
wow - great list!& it’s great that you went to the trouble to find pics.I may have been seeing too much Boston Legal, but if a woman impersonated a man today and was awarded medals or pension as a man wouldn’t there be law suits n tv shows n protests etc?
Kudos to these women and many unknown ones, who kicked-ass in those days!
46. Anon - September 5th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I shouldn’t like to see Jean Baré or Bonnefoy (neé Jeanne Baré) (1740-1803) left out, either for the pure fun of her adventure, or her notable achievement. Her deception is only less for being relatively short-lived.
Jeanne was the mistress and companion of the French botanist Philibert Commerçon or Commerson (1727-1773), and herself an expert botanist. In 1766 Commerçon was invited to accompany the navigator and soldier Bougainville on his circumnavigation voyage of the globe of the globe. The well known plant Bougainvillea was named by Commerçon for him. The expedition consisted of two vessels, the Étoile and the La Bouleuse. Jeanne disguides herself as a man, Jean, and was presented as Commerçon’s valet. Remarkably, she not only managed to retain the disguise in the company of a shipload of French sailors until they reached Tahiti, but gained much admiration for her toughness and tenacity as an explorer.
Her secret was in fact immediately blown apart by male Tahitian islanders, who surrounded her with such attention and excitement that she had to be returned to the vessel for her own safety. From then on, Commerçon recorded ruefully, the situation also became somewhat more *delicate* with her shipmates! As a result of her deception, she is considered to be the first woman to have circumnavigated the world. Nothing is recorded of her later life.
I can’t remember where I first picked up this tale, but the details here are from Wikipedia.
47. Justice_32 - September 5th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Isn’t this list suppose to be labeled Top 10 WOMEN who were men?!, the title is wrong
48. Mike - September 5th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
I heard in one of the Bond films, I think it was For Your Eyes only, one of the “Women”, Bond slept with was actually a tranny. And eventually, the actor, I think it was Moore, found out.
49. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
warrrreagl (#16): you have no idea! It was a major ordeal involving much editing!
50. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
AmazingThor (#20): no - you are thinking of Pope Joan which is a myth. It is debunked on this list - it is item 2.
51. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Craig (#37): I cannot tell a lie - it is indeed the PM
Here is a picture that will explain all 
52. appie - September 5th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
OMG,Ive been waiting for this one to come out..
thanks so much Jamie,you’re such a smart guy..
53. Mom424 - September 5th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Great List Jamie! I think it kind of cool that the women disguised as men in order to be with their husbands in fact often surpassed them in skill and bravery. And becoming a man in order to be a doctor. How great is that?
54. Mariam67 - September 5th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I’m surprised you didn’t include Mulan or Pope John VIII. Also, you said James Barry was born from born 1792-1795. She sure accomplished a lot before she was 3!
Still, it’s a great list. Thanks for posting!
55. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Mariam67: Mulan was a legendary character who probably didn’t exist. As for Pope John VIII, he was not a woman - I have already stated it above - Pope Joan is a myth from the 13th century - there never was a woman pope and there never could be as a Pope must be a priest and as women can not be priests - even if they are ordained - it stands to reason that a female can not become Pope. If she fooled people into thinking she was Pope - she wouldn’t be - she would be an anti-Pope of sorts.
So, John VIII - the real story - he was one of the ablest Popes of the 9th century and crowned a King and two Holy Roman Emperors. He was widely known before and after his rise to the papacy.
As for James Barry - those two years given are the speculated years of her birth - no one is sure exactly which of those two years was the one in which she born.
56. joebecca - September 5th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
WHAT A GREAT LIST!!
I have never seen boys don’t cry. i had no idea it was a true story, or that he/she was killed! i’ll have to check it out.
57. Hillery - September 5th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
The first time I read about James Barry, there was something mentioning physical evidence “he” had borne a child. I double checked my book on it, and it does indeed say that, but I’m too lazy to go researching it before commenting. Maybe I’ll look into it later. Or maybe I’ll just have some ice cream. Just thought I’d interject a bit…
Also, Justice_32: No. The title is correct.
58. Riya B. - September 5th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Hey great list man.Can’t wait for top ten women who were really men list,cuz I know its coming soon!
59. segue - September 5th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
#36. Tara
@segue
People do it every day. Transsexuals all over the world live without anyone knowing.
****
Tara, you aren’t even close to addressing the question.
While *some* transsexuals can successfully live as the opposite sex, the big give away (aside from sexual organs, which are hidden), is bone structure.
Men and women have *very* different bone structure. That is something you can’t hide. It’s always a dead give-away.
That doesn’t make it wrong, because it’s not. A person’s sexual preference is inborn, and nothing anyone can do can change that.
I’m making a simple statement of fact: men and women have different bone structure.
Period.
End of discussion.
60. Les - September 5th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Wow, great list. I’ve always thought the story of Jame Barry was interesting and inspiring. I read an article about her years ago and people claimed ‘he’ was often moody but otherwise a very good doctor. I guess they had a partial explaination after she died. Perhaps she had the baby when she was very young and her family encouraged her to go to medical school disguised as a man in order to avoid the disgrace of being an unwed mother.
61. Blogball - September 5th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
The next time I’m at gathering with my friends I will wait for the subject of cesarean sections to come up and I then I will say “how about that British surgeon back in the 1700s that performed the first successful cesarean section in Africa in which both the mother and child survived”
Friend at gathering: “Wow that’s really interesting he must have been a really smart doctor”
Me: “ Well actually it wasn’t a he it was a woman born by the name of Margaret Ann Bulkley and she disguised herself as a man in order to achieve her dreams of working in medicine”
Friend at gathering: Speechless with mouth open
Me: * takes a sip of cabernet and walks away*
62. Matt - September 5th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
This whole list is very offensive.
There is a difference between a “man who is a really a woman” and someone who is transgendered.
Joan of Arc would be classified as a man who is really a woman. She did not identify as male. She just dressed as a man.
Many of the people on this list are actually transgendered. Referring to them with the incorrect pronouns is incredibly offensive to the trans community.
Brandon Teena was murdered because people could not understand what transgendered means. And now you are here referring to him as “she”.
Shame on you.
This list is incredibly disgusting.
63. Vera Lynn - September 5th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
#5 is sad. 39 years in an insane asylum? If she wasn’t nuts when she went in, she was crazy soon after. I couldn’t imagine.
64. logar - September 5th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
62- Matt
I doubt that the majority of the… people on this list would have called *themselves* a “he”. Teena would have, I’m sure. That being said, they were all biological females- lighten up. If you think this list’s “incredibly disgusting”… relax, take a valium, and take the list in the spirit in which it is given.
65. Vera Lynn - September 5th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Cedestra (38) Chalkwhite (39) I think it was George Eliot (pseudonym) who published as a man.
66. Cedestra - September 5th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Vera Lynn: The person whom I was thinking of was Alice Sheldon, who also wrote under “Raccoona Sheldon”.
67. Cedestra - September 5th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
The stories about cross-dressing or transvestite women don’t bother me. What really disturbed me was what happened to Brandon Teena. I mean, would you rape your buddy if you found out “he” was a “she”? That thought sickens me as being along the same lines as incest.
68. segue - September 5th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
65. Vera Lynn , George Sand was a woman, who published as a man.
69. Vera Lynn - September 5th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
segue (68)George Eliot’s real name was Mary Ann Evans. Wow!! I knew something you didn’t! Mark this day
70. xXTurkinatorXx - September 5th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I don’t know where to post ideas for new topics, but I think that something like Top 10 Worst Pains would be kind of cool……..
Dont yell at me for this, im new here…
71. Rusty - September 5th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Regarding #51 - The Perfect Expression - how else could you look in the company of George when he is talking!
She may look like a smacked bum but it is honesty in the face of bullshit…
72. Wow - September 5th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
I’m actually surprised the general public is so accepting about something I thought they would be really critical about =D Way to go people of listverse!! And Thomas Beatie shouldn’t be on here for many reasons. A rare few of transmen do have their own children…it’s just that they don’t seek publicity for it. Although Beatie’s case is extremely rare, he wasn’t the first. Another reason is that he is actually transgendered, meaning he never really would’ve been considered a female (this should apply to Brandon Teena as well).
And Matt I agree with what you’re saying but as this isn’t such a well-known topic I believe it was just an honest mistake. This list is still amazing regardless.
73. segue - September 5th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
67. Cedestra, that was awful. A lot of awful things happen to people who don’t “fit the mold”.
I was born and grew up in Los Angeles.
I went to Uni there and worked in Hollywood. I knew so many people who didn’t “fit the mold”.
I have sad stories from here to next week. People who are dead, people who soon will be.
I couldn’t care less if someone wants to wear the clothes of the opposite sex. Hell, let them dance and sing and set off fireworks. As long as everyone practices safe sex, they can pretend anything they want.
74. Dischuker - September 5th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
matt and wow: isn’t the qualification of male and female strictly a “plumbing” issue? regardless of cognizant decision or genetic make-up, if you are born with a penis you are a man. right?
75. MPW - September 5th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Very interesting list. My uncle was actually dating a “woman” only to learn she was a man at “her” funeral. He/she went by Raven, but his/her real name was Michael. True story.
76. Vera Lynn - September 5th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Hmmm. I guess they weren’t very intimate. I know that I would definitely know if I had a man or a woman in my bed.
77. MPW - September 5th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Vera Lynn(76) I don’t know all the details(thankfully), but I think either my uncle knew the whole time or maybe his “girlfriend” had his parts reconfigured. I do know that no one else in my family had a clue about her/him.
78. Jessy - September 5th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Regarding Billy Tipton and others who maintained long-term heterosexual relationships with women whilst posing as men- I get having sex with the lights off. I get maybe locking the bathroom door everytime you go in. But I think I would eventually wonder when, after years together, I’d never actually SEEN my husband’s penis. Maybe not suspect he was actually a woman (that IS pretty far-fetched), but I would definitely start wondering what was up if he would never let me see him naked in the light of day after years of marriage.
I do feel for those women in those relationships. Certainly they were fulfilling enough, but I would feel so stupid after I found out, no matter how convincing he was.
79. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Matt - sorry but I don’t abide by political correctness. All of the women on this list were of the female sex - therefore they are “she”. I do not mean to offend but people shouldn’t take offense at correct anatomical terminology.
80. sharlu - September 5th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Helen Clark - LMAO
81. jfrater - September 5th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Jessy: wait for the Women who were really Men list - one is a documented modern story which involved a 20 year marriage with no one realizing it.
82. Vera Lynn - September 5th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
JFrater (79) I agree. Matt took it a bit over the top. Your intentions were pure. Not meant to be punitive.
83. Blogball - September 5th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Hey what about Peter Pan? Name one dude on stage or screen that has ever played Peter Pan. Come on jfrater get with the program!
84. goof_ball - September 5th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
i dont know who any of these people are
85. kiwiboi - September 5th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
sorry but I don’t abide by political correctness
jfrater - bravo!
86. jfrater - September 6th, 2008 at 12:35 am
kiwiboi: many thanks
87. Denzell - September 6th, 2008 at 1:09 am
Why not place Mulan as a bonus item?
88. jfrater - September 6th, 2008 at 2:11 am
Denzell: because she didn’t exist? Everyone else on the list and in the omissions did. Why do people believe everything Disney puts out?
89. sue - September 6th, 2008 at 2:45 am
Interesting list.But kinda sad as well.
90. Joewatson - September 6th, 2008 at 3:01 am
God I can’t get over it..
not a single dig at Hillary!
It’s like this website is dedicated
to the actual exchange and expression
of informed thought!
you communist..no wait..you facsics..
er no…you terrorisss…
ok wait.
I’m tired of you not choosing sides and
falling into an easily labeled conglomorate…
this whole “thinking about what you do”..
its exactly what the enemy wants!!
Do you know how hard it is to label and
control what you’re to think when you just go
about thinking for yourselves??!
God! You are maddeningly unpatriotic!
Oh, and how proud you should be.
91. Drogo - September 6th, 2008 at 3:09 am
I remember Billy Tipton’s widow, and sons, giving an interview. His widow said (claimed) that when she met Billy, she was interested in having a loving companion who was not necessarily a sexual partner. (She might have said that she had recently ended a bad marriage.) Billy told her a detailed story of a car accident
92. Drogo - September 6th, 2008 at 3:13 am
posting problem, second try
I remember Billy Tipton’s widow, and sons, giving an interview. His widow said (claimed) that when she met Billy, she was interested in having a loving companion who was not necessarily a sexual partner. (She might have said that she had recently ended a bad marriage.) Billy told her a detailed story of a car accident
93. Drogo - September 6th, 2008 at 3:17 am
Drat! ADD THIS to my previous comment….
…”a car accident”
94. The Internet. - September 6th, 2008 at 3:21 am
Get off of me. All of you.
95. Drogo - September 6th, 2008 at 3:25 am
DANG IT!
continued:
THE CAR accident had crushed and hideously deformed his genitals. Even after they married he didn’t want her to see the deformity and never undressed in front of her. The Tipton sons said he was a great dad.
I remember that he said the car was a Buick, because I’ve been in two accidents. first one, I was a kid riding in a Buick, second one I was driving a Buick. - I don’t like Buicks. haha
96. me - September 6th, 2008 at 3:44 am
where’s Mulan? hehehe.
97. Teapixie - September 6th, 2008 at 6:46 am
@Drogo.
95. Thanks. I had read somewhere that Billy Tipton explained to his wife about his deformed genitals but I couldn’t remember the circumstances. I thought it was a war injury or something similar, so thanks for adding all the detail.
98. segue - September 6th, 2008 at 8:03 am
#69. Vera Lynn
segue (68)George Eliot’s real name was Mary Ann Evans. Wow!! I knew something you didn’t! Mark this day
****
My hat is off to you, Vera Lynn! I absolutely did not know that bit of literature trivia (and I *should*, one of degrees is in lit!) But you get full marks on this one, A+.
George Sand was born Aurore Dupin.
I think it’s dreadfully sad that women had to pretend to be men, just to get published. At least I can be me.
99. segue - September 6th, 2008 at 8:12 am
79. jfrater -
I don’t abide by political correctness.
****
Hooray for jfrater!
I’ve always said that political correctness was the death knell of sanity.
100. Anon - September 6th, 2008 at 8:59 am
jfrater & segue, 79 & 99,
I don’t abide by political correctness.
****
Hooray for jfrater!
I’ve always said that political correctness was the death knell of sanity.
Add my name to that sentiment please, and the following to re-inforce your phrase, segue:
… and the birthplace of a new kind of lunacy.
A well-written, comprehensive, scholarly and interesting short reference to the subject is:
‘The Politically Correct Phrasebook’, Nigel Rees. 1993, Bloomsbury Publishing Ltd.
Despite the title, it is not a work that would find a welcome on the PC fanatic’s bookshelf!
How about 10 (or more) idiotic politically correct phrases?
101. Anon - September 6th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Dischuker, (74) and others,
“matt and wow: isn’t the qualification of male and female strictly a “plumbing” issue? regardless of cognizant decision or genetic make-up, if you are born with a penis you are a man. right?
It occurred to me that a related *cheating* problem arose in sport and athletics during the latter half of the last century. A study of the regulations that were set up to define and determine the sex of participants in those cases would reveal both what the criteria are, and also what might be styled *in-between* areas.
102. johnk - September 6th, 2008 at 10:41 am
bet none of them could read a map or parallel park a car
103. segue - September 6th, 2008 at 11:00 am
100. Anon…segue 99… I don’t abide by political correctness.
****
Add my name to that sentiment please, and the following to re-inforce your phrase, segue:
… and the birthplace of a new kind of lunacy.
A well-written… ‘The Politically Correct Phrasebook’, Nigel Rees. 1993, Bloomsbury Publishing Ltd.
Another to add to my ever growing library!
Re: your suggestion of idiotic politically correct phrases?
If you want to be absolutely politically correct, it’s more difficult than you might think.
Take the lowly manhole cover.
Can’t call it a “man”hole cover, because it contains the word man, thus, it is sexist.
Can’t call it a personhole cover, because the word person contains the word “son”, another masculine word, so, again sexist.
Sewer hole cover is non-sexist, but inaccurate. So a word that has been perfectly useful for decades is verboten in certain circles because of it’s “sexist” name.
Mailman. You are stuck with the same problem. Mail person is still sexist.
Mail carrier? Mail deliverer? Awkward, but for the sake of the poor hurt feelings of the few, must the majority make up words to protect them from real life?
Even personal pronouns fall before the great and powerful political correctness: She (contains “he”), Her (contains “he”), Them (contains that even present “he”).
I really could make a list, not of 10, but of 100!
Some people just can’t understand, mostly because either they don’t want to, or they’ve been brain-washed, into not understanding that in an essay or article, when speaking of mankind as a whole, the word “man” is neuterless.
It’s an argument no one will win, because the P.C.ers, are too vapid, and set in their ways.
104. Anon - September 6th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
segue,
Has anyone ever tried to apply fundamental sexual political correctness to Latin, Spanish, French or German, for example?
I suppose for the latter, *das* would have to stand as the definite for everything that wasn’t unabiguously masculine or feminine. But what about *ein* and *eine*? The latter is feminine, but the former stands for both neuter and masculine, so you’d have to make up a third like *einet* for pure *it*. What fun you’d then have revising everything, including all the declensions into the bargain.
What happens when referring to a foreign place name such as Omdurman or Batman (believe it, S.E. Turkey!) if you’re strictly P.C.?
105. Cedestra - September 6th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Batman…is that where Suparman bin Batman is from?
106. Matt - September 6th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
There is a difference between sex and gender.
Yes, sex is biological. But even with biological sex, things aren’t so black and white. There are people who are born with Turner Syndrome (XXX chromosomes) or Klinefelter’s syndrome (XXY chromosomes) among other chromosomal disorders.
Gender, on the other hand, is a social construction. What we define as male and female is based on social customs. Boys wear pants. Girls wear dresses. We use those outward symbols of gender when we call someone “he” or “she”. We don’t call them “he” or “she” because of their chromosomes. When we look at someone, we can’t see their chromosomes (as the people on this list prove).
107. segue - September 6th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
105. Cedestra (with thanks to Anon for the gift of knowing it exists!)
Batman…is that where Suparman bin Batman is from?
****
I believe that’s where Robin parks bin Batcar.
108. The_Patient - September 7th, 2008 at 7:25 am
Matt - Im on your side.
Wow- thanks for your input also.
Dischuker - No. Although a person’s sex is usually all about “plumbing”, what about hermaphrodites? Plus, trangenderism is real. It is not a choice. Although a person is a born physically one sex (e.g female), it is possible, just not that common, for their brain, their mind and everything they feel to be the opposite gender.
I dont think Matt went over the top, just expressed an opinion. I dont mean to sound so angry etc. I know this list was not created to offend (I love listverse by the way :0) )
but I know atleast in Brandon Teena’s case, transgenderism was the issue.
109. Jessnz - September 7th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Hahaha i love the Helen Clark addition, I’ve shaken her hand and she has a very very strong grip!
110. astraya - September 7th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Blogball @ 83: Robin Williams in Hook.
111. Vera Lynn - September 7th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
astraya (110) Robin Williams as Mrs. Doubtfire!
112. Anon - September 7th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Vera, (111),
That film is on our ‘next buy’ list for that virtuoso performance by Robin Williams. Do you know just how spot-on his Scots accent is? It’s hilarious of itself. When the film was released in Chile, Anita and I watched it in Santiago. As it happens, the midweek slot when they only charge $2.00 entry to the cinema. The auditorium was quite full. The film was subtitled in Spanish, but they just couldn’t translate many jokes. When he invented the name name ‘Doubtfire’ off-the-cuff by reading a newspaper headline, and on other occasions, the subs were utterly meanlingless. So there was deathly silence from the large crowd of watching Chileans who were all turning round and wondering why on earth Anita and I were *rolling about in the aisles* wetting ourselves!
113. k1w1taxi - September 8th, 2008 at 1:45 am
Re James Tiptree jr. (38, 66)
Tiptree was indeed the pen name of Alice Sheldon. However the interesting part with relation to this list is that though she may have lived her life as a woman she never made any personal appearances with regard her writing and always left the gender section of any questionnaires blank. As a result she was thought to be a man for almost 10 years by the sf reading and writing fraternity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tiptree,_Jr
Another woman who may fit on this list is Josephine Monaghan who was apparently the inspiration for the movie The ballad of Little Jo. Unfortunately a quick google doesn’t provide too much backup info on this.
Cheers
Lee
114. Drogo - September 8th, 2008 at 4:44 am
A girl I went to high school had a gender identity problem. She very clearly wanted to be a man. One time in gym class, in an attempt at being manly, she tried unsuccessfully to beat me up because I had splashed water on her with my hockey stick. While she was trying to push me to the ground, I got her to stop by saying, “If you’re so macho, why are you upset over a little bit of water splashing on you?” I wonder if she is still trying to live as if she were male.
115. Woooooolhouse - September 8th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
As my mom always said, “If your friends are going to rape you just because they find out you’re actually a girl, then they’re not really your friends.”
116. Blogball - September 8th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
#110 astraya,
You can’t get anything past a Listverser.
I forgot about Robin Williams in Hook.
117. Victor - September 9th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Very interesting! But there’s another you forgot to mention. The female Pope, Joana. Cerca 15th century.
118. Blogball - September 9th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Victor, please read post # 50 & 55
119. brook - September 9th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
It’s quite impressive how these women were able to hide their true identity. Back in those times when female hygiene products were very rudimentary, I find it difficult for a woman to mask the inconvenience of those days during each month when they had their periods. How could they get rid of the blood, or stop the flow, or mask the smell? If you are a man, you probably don’t think it’s difficult at all, but let me tell you, it’s quite an inconvenience!!!
120. Blogball - September 9th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Concerning post # 119
I’m so happy I’m a guy.
121. Anon - September 10th, 2008 at 7:43 am
brook, (119),
Historical information suggests that almost everybody without a deal of leisure on their hands may have smelled like drains in much of the bygone times anyway. Most of all when they were travelling rough, i.e. as explorers, army, etc. If you cared, you masked it powerful deodorants of the time, if you could afford them. Perhaps even men did this to make their company tolerable.
I’m no medic, but understand difficult or stressful circumstances and other situations may also reduce or suppress the monthly cycle.
How a woman could avoid taking her clothes off in supposedly all-male company is difficult to imagine. Might claim some shameful disfigurement, I suppose. But again, in all-male company people have ghoulish curiosity and might well demand to see. Profession of shyness would be inviting any bunch of normal rough soldiers to debag you anyway.
H
122. Anon - September 10th, 2008 at 7:47 am
brook, (119),
Historical information suggests that almost everybody without a deal of leisure on their hands may have smelled like drains in much of the bygone times anyway. Most of all when they were travelling rough, i.e. as explorers, army, etc. If you cared, you masked it with powerful deodorants of the time, if you could afford them. Perhaps even men did this to make their company tolerable.
I’m no medic, but understand difficult or stressful circumstances and other situations may also reduce or suppress the monthly cycle.
How a woman could avoid taking her clothes off in supposedly all-male company is difficult to imagine. Might claim some shameful disfigurement, I suppose. But again, in all-male groups would tend to have ghoulish curiosity and might well demand to see. Coy profession of shyness would be inviting any bunch of normal rough soldiers to debag you anyway.
How interesting it would be to interview each of these these women though and ask how they managed to pull it off. (Or rather not to pull it off!)
123. A - September 10th, 2008 at 9:18 am
My my, I’ve discovered my new favorite website.
124. Renee - September 16th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Brandond identified as a male and that is the pronoun you should have had the decency to use when you were discussing HIS life. What you did was trans hate.
125. Seth - September 16th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
I know it’s hard to be sure about historical figures (for example, some people think that Joan of Arc may have actually identified as male, given “her” refusal to wear women’s clothing), but when it comes to more recent people who clearly expressed their wishes- please use proper pronouns. It’s absolutely inexcusable to refer to someone like Brandon Teena, who died for his identity, with the wrong pronouns.
It’s not just a matter of “political correctness,” and it’s far more than just what parts a person has. Being a man is more than having a penis, and being a woman is more than breasts and PMS.
126. Shay - September 19th, 2008 at 12:32 am
Will Wayne Newton finally come clean with her darkest of secrets?
127. SAMURA1 - September 19th, 2008 at 12:55 am
You forgot Hillary Clinton.
128. Brickhouse - September 22nd, 2008 at 11:55 am
Brandon Teena… I have to watch Boys Don’t Cry now. That just made me sad reading it.
Renee: Some of them are referred to as him, some as her and some as both. I don’t think it was intentional.
129. humbug - October 10th, 2008 at 11:29 am
How bout Charlie Parkhurst
130. Kate - October 13th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Um, yeah. OKay, Brandon Teena? Was a guy. HE does not belong on that list. Shit, you could go to wiki right now and probably find at least three people to replace him.
E.G., Hatshepsut. The female pharaoh of Egypt. A real person and an amazing ruler, who lived and ruled as a male. She was most definitely female, though, and had a child(who died) with her husband. Recently, her body was discovered, set aside in a tomb in the Valley Of Kings.
131. Bea - October 13th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Brandon Teena was not a girl. Brandon Teena was a transexual man. It’s disrespectful to ignore his gender identity and choice to present as male by calling him a woman.
132. Jayson - October 13th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
I agree with Bea, Brandon is a transman. I was a little offended by some of the stuff in the article.
Sure, a few of these were women who disgused themselves as men to get into the army or whatever but still lived their lives as women when it was over, that’s fine.
But the ones who continued to live life as a male should be respected and be referred to as him or he, etc.
133. wacaroo - October 21st, 2008 at 4:21 am
I agree. Brandon had a male brain, he was a male. Other people on this list were not.