Top 10 Bizarre Mormon Beliefs
- Published February 4, 2008 - 413 Comments
Every religion has unique beliefs. This is a list of odd LDS beliefs. Each Item on the list quotes LDS scripture so you can be sure it is authentic.
10. Tithing

While tithes are not uncommon among religion, rarely are they mandatory. LDS theology states that in order to make it to the highest kingdom of heaven, you must pay a full and honest tithe.
D&C 119: 3-6
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.
6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you.
9. Pleasure in Life

This is one of the most famous pieces of LDS doctrine. It’s also the cause of many myths about Mormons. Basically; no coffee, no drugs, no tobacco.
D&C 89: 5-13
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
8. Spirits

This one is very unique to the LDS faith. Basically, everyone on earth now was a spirit in the pre-existence. When we die, our spirits are separated from our bodies and if we were good they go to “spirit paradise.” If we were bad they go to “spirit prison.” The spirit world exists as a place for spirits to go while awaiting the second coming.
D&C 138: 8-14
8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18—20.)
10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)
11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.
12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
7. Modern Revelation

Almost everyone who knows anything about the Mormon religion knows they have a prophet. What many don’t know, is anything that the prophet says in official capacity is considered official canon.
D&C 43: 2-9
2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.
3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.
4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.
5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;
6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.
7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.
8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given.
9 And thus ye shall become instructed in the law of my church, and be sanctified by that which ye have received, and ye shall bind yourselves to act in all holiness before me—
6. Jesus visited the Americas

The Book of Mormon is a book of LDS scripture that takes place during the same time as the Bible and takes place on the American continent. It follows the stories of two tribes who descended from the family of Lehi. After Jesus’ resurrection LDS people believe he visited the peoples of the Americas.
3 Nephi 11: 7-12
7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.
8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.
9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:
10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11 And behold, I am the alight and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
5. The Nature of God

While most religions believe in God, the LDS religion believes in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as separate beings. They also believe that God, Jesus and resurrected beings have bodies of “flesh and bone.”
D&C 129:1-5
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
D&C 130: 22-23
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.
4. Priesthood

In the LDS religion any worthy male can be given the priesthood and is given specific duties. Black people were not allowed to have the priesthood until 1978. Females are not allowed to have the priesthood.
D&C 107: 1-5
1 There are, in the church, two priesthoods, namely, the Melchizedek and Aaronic, including the Levitical Priesthood.
2 Why the first is called the Melchizedek Priesthood is because Melchizedek was such a great high priest.
3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.
4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.
5 All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to this priesthood.
Official Declaration – 2, 1978
Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.
3. Multiple Heavens

In LDS doctrine there are three heavens: the Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, and Telestial Kingdom. The Celestial is the highest, where God and the ones who followed his law reside. The Terrestrial is the middle, where people who followed the Law of Moses reside. The Telestial is the lowest, where the ones who followed carnal law reside.
D&C 76: 94-98
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.
97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
2. Forgiveness

In LDS theology you can be forgiven for any sin, save two. First, denying the Holy Spirit, and second, murder. Also, God is infinitely forgiving, until the second coming. After that, you end up where you end up, no matter what. There are no second chances. Period.
D&C 76: 43-45
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;
D&C 18: 42
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.
D&C 76: 111-112
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
1. Multiple Worlds and Multiple Gods

This deserves some explanation. Mormons believe that God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.
D&C 76: 24
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
D&C 93: 10
10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.
Moses 1: 33
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
D&C 76: 108
108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.
D&C 131: 1-5
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.
Contributor: Mystern





February 4th, 2008 at 6:57 am
First!
February 4th, 2008 at 7:01 am
They’re wierd, but it’s not scientology weird.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:02 am
There’s a typo in number 6. It says
it should say
February 4th, 2008 at 7:12 am
The scriptures themselves are so funny to read, especially for #10. It’s like someone saying ‘give me your money’ or ‘don’t do this’ but making it looks like it’s come out of the bible.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Interesting list as usual,Jfrater.I agree with DarkWolf.It’s weird,but nothing beats scientology
February 4th, 2008 at 7:30 am
I wish I had more time to really read these. I will have to remember to come back to this later. Nice job Mystern. I was surprised to not find the mormon undergarments on the list.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Oh and it was interesting to read it is “hot drinks”. I always thought it was coffee and the caffine. No wonder my moron, I mean mormon, friend wouldn’t even drink herbal tea.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:32 am
JwJwBean: I wanted to find things that weren’t already on another list. Perhaps a couple notable omissions would be Undergarments and Baptisms for the Dead.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:34 am
JwJwBean: Actually herbal tea is considered fine by official church leaders. They’re just not allowed to have anything with tea leaves in it.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:34 am
hey Mystern, best be careful….you may be bad-mouthing our next president!
February 4th, 2008 at 7:35 am
#7: Who’s the dude with that angelic expression?
February 4th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Stevenh: Mit Romney hasn’t got a chance.
Heavybison: The pic in number 7 is of Thomas S Monson. He will shortly be named the new LDS prophet.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:40 am
I stayed in Utah for a year and i could have sworn there was something about polygamy being part of things.
Reason enuf for me to convert, if you ask me
February 4th, 2008 at 7:44 am
heavybison: Polygamy hasn’t been practiced for over 100 years. However, Mormons do believe that polygamy will exist in heaven.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:44 am
No forgiveness for murder? That means Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are out.
Too bad about St Paul, too. . .
February 4th, 2008 at 7:56 am
Mystern: great list!! Very informative without being too biased.
stevenh: Mit Romney won’t be president… There is no way that the protestant republicans would allow that.
heavybison: angelic is not the word I would use to describe that expression… creeper might work though.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Verily I say unto thee that this all sounds like it was written by a 12 year old.
I’ve actually read the book of mormon. Well most of it, I stopped when I felt myself getting dumber.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:02 am
SB: Thanks, though I wasn’t aware I was being biased.
9000: You must remember that Joseph Smith only had a 3rd grade education.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Those crazy mormons.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:23 am
mystern: lol, i thought the whole point of this list was to be biased
February 4th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Mystern: That’s what I meant.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:43 am
SHHHHH – the boss is mormon, I’m at work, so I’m whispering my post. So tippy toe around my post will ya? I’ll refer to him as Dude.
Dude has 12 weird kids. Dude’s weird great grandfather hustled over the hill with Brigham Young. Dude’s weird great grandfather had 5 weird wives, each with a separate weird house and 35 weird kids. Dude wears weird ‘undies.’ Dude talks about Navoo with weird misty eyes. (Navoo = weird mormon Mecca) Dude gave me weird mormon literature at work. Dude constantly argues about weird Mormon doctrine to Catholic co-worker on roadies. Dude has tried to indoctrinate me with weird doctrines. Dude has weird reservations about caffienated drinks but won’t hestitate to stuff a half dozen glazed doughnuts down his weird pie-hole.
Dude is weird.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:24 am
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!
Read “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer.
You owe it to yourself to check it out. Moving and thought provoking look at modern day zealous Mormons. He is an amazing author!
February 4th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Mormons, Scientology, Jehovah’s Witness…
There’s some weird stuff out there.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Everyone says Mormon baptisms for the dead are weird, I always thought that the marriage by proxy for the dead was stranger.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:32 am
bucslim: Funny comment. LOL
Dude.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Bucslim: Your post cracked me and everyone else here at work up. (shhhhh, I’m also “working”). Despite that fact of being LDS myself, i find so things kinda odd. After digging around some there seem to be lots of things that are kinda “forgotten” by our leaders. Honestly though, I can’t say I’ve ever heard of the Bizarre Belief #1.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:55 am
i really didn’t find any of this that weird. like number 8, isn’t that basically the same idea as heaven and hell?
only men being allowed to be priests? still not that weird.
the only ones that made me go “hmmm…. kinda weird…”
were 6 and 7.
(and i’m not a morman, i had never even met a morman until maybe 3 years ago.)
February 4th, 2008 at 10:03 am
downhighway61: The reason number 8 is odd is because the vast majority of christians believe that God lived with angels in heaven and Mormons believe that we were those angels. Also, spirit prison/paradise is kind of like heaven/hell except that you can repent after you die and go from prison to paradise.
MarkJ: there are tons of things the church glosses over right at first. One of the interesting things about the Mormon religion though, is that the more questions you ask the more answers you get. The Mormon religion has an answer for everything, even if some of those answers are pretty bizarre.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Look, I’m mostly a gregarious kinda guy. I sorta get ruffled when someone pokes fun at the goofy things I believe, so if any of you take offense to what I’ve posted, I’m truly sorry. I’ve just been around my boss for so long I find some of the things he believes to be off the radar. Maybe because he’s the boss is part of the reason I’ve dubbed him the weird Dude.
He has invited our staff to his house for some kind of goofy “Game Night” with the rest of his kooky clan. I declined. Overall he’s a decent guy, but when religion comes up, trust me, I get some creepy feeling that my boss is a good candidate for a tranq gun takedown.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Joseph Smith was called a prophet (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
He started the Mormon religion (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
He found the stones and golden plates (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
Even though nobody else ever saw them (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
And that’s how the Book of Mormon was written (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
Surely I’m not the only one who’s seen that?
February 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am
phunniemee: Mormons claim that a number of other people saw the plates and the stones.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Mystern: That’s not in the South Park song. =)
February 4th, 2008 at 10:11 am
oh. I’ve seen very few episodes of South Park. Maybe you could find a link to it?
February 4th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Here’s the South Park episode:
http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/712/All-about-the-Mormons?.html
There’s also the whole thing about how Native Americans got “red skin” as a punishment, or something.
And the temple garments (aka, magic underwear): http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/images/mormon-temple-garments.jpg
and the baptism of the dead: http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/practices/baptism_for_the_dead.htm
The list goes on and on …
February 4th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Great list Mystern. WEIRD about the coffee though. I mean I understand tobacco and alchohol cause that’s bad for you, but Coffee???
February 4th, 2008 at 10:36 am
well… isn’t being able to repent in prison a much better thought than having to spend eternity there? it’s just not that odd to me. believing that jesus and god are the same thing is weird to me. and not going to heaven if you don’t accept jesus., even if you’ve never heard of him.
i dunno… maybe i’ll make a bizare judaism list.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:37 am
hgaratir- caffeine is addictive, can cause headaches and overall jitters. i know because i’m addicted
February 4th, 2008 at 10:38 am
hgaratie: Unless you’re already an avid coffee drinker, try picking up a five-cup-a-day (standard for a lot of people I know) habit for a week and tell me if you still think coffee is good for you. haha
February 4th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Hehe, oooh organized religion. How strange…
Although, Orson Scott Card, one of my favorite scifi authors, is mormon. They can at least function normally in society, which is not the case for many, much stranger religions, although this one has some nutty rules and beliefs too. Good list, Mystern.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:40 am
hgaratie: Yep. Coffee is the devil! The vast majority of Mormons will explain it as “Staying away from addictive substances”. Why they don’t stay away from prescription painkillers and sugar is what baffles me.
Fili: Thanks for the links. In reference to the Native American thing, Mormons believe that Native American descended from the family of Lehi (see number 6). The family split up and the evil ones were cursed with dark(er) skin. You must also remember that Mormons believe the mark placed upon Cain was dark skin i.e. black people. That’s why black people were not allowed to have the priesthood for over 150 years after the church started.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:49 am
I’d like to see a second top ten on this issue. Married to an ex-mormon gives me a laugh.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Ok my friend, you have subtly made fun of Christians, and now Mormons, I usually avoid placs that monopolize on religion but you claim to be fair and open minded so I’d like to see a ten list (or more) on the beliefs of wiccans, druids etc. I know there are religions that worship damned elephants, friggin cows and a damn FAT MAN with a swimming pool for a belly button!
February 4th, 2008 at 10:55 am
R Brown: absolutely! I have already done bizarre religious practices that involved non-Christian religions, but I am keen to do one of neo-pagans. We could start with the claim that Wicca is an ancient religion (when it is actually a modern invention). Speaking of Buddha – there have been some bizarre practices in that religion – self mummification for a start (that is one of the other lists here already).
February 4th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Mystern: In reference to the “forgotten” things i was talking about, check out the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Pretty sketch stuff. But every religion has their secrets. I say that the whole debate on the golden plates and Joseph Smith finding them can go up there with all the crooked Popes in the Catholic religion. Or the 144K some odd people going to Heaven according to the JWs. All I’m trying to say is that every major religion has its issues and no ones perfect.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:15 am
A well-written list that didn’t seem to really poke fun at these beliefs, just state them. Kudos on that! As weird as Mormons are, I really haven’t met any mean ones in my day, the ones in my experience have been really nice people! My best friend’s family is Mormon and I used to go to servies and church functions with them all the time. Her mom teaches Sunday School and is involved in some of the activities the church runs.
We used to go to Super Saturday dances for young men and women, and they always made this delicious punch with sherbet in it, and it’s where I had my first slow dance!
I used to love meeting all of the missionaries from all over, my friend’s family used to have them over for dinner once a week and they’d often let me sit in and eat with them. It was interesting hearing about their experiences not only where they lived, but where they’d been on their missions! Really great people, they started giving me the discussions, but my mom stepped in and thought I should wait until I was an adult to choose a religion. I’m kind of glad she did that, all due respect to the Mormons, but since then I’ve kind of decided I don’t much like the idea of organized religion and would prefer to practice my beliefs alone.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:19 am
MarkJ: Ah. I misinterpreted your comment. Yes there are things early in the LDS church that are more than a little sketchy. Just as an example try looking into lawsuits filed against Joseph Smith which were dropped because he claimed “freedom of religious practices”
Miss Destiny: Mormons are generally nice to people who aren’t Mormon.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Mormons: God’s one liner.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Top 11 Bizzare Mormom belief: Men can have multiple wives if they want. Those tards believe adultery is fine.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Everyone know Mormons are already bizarre, so why would we need a list about them? :S
February 4th, 2008 at 11:43 am
As a former Mormon, I’d say this is one of the better-researched lists/articles I’ve seen. Informative, but nice to see that someone isn’t beating the polygamy dead horse. There’s other odd beliefs too.
I’d say the most bizarre thing for me is hearing someone bear testimony of the complete truthfulness of the Mormon Church, especially after leaving. It’s kind of a WTF moment.
All in all, Mormons are well-meaning folks, for sure. It’s just the taking the religion literally that’s the hard part.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Blot: Well said. As a former Mormon I completely agree.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:50 am
I think taking ANY religion literally is recipe for disaster, no?
February 4th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
It seems like in many religions, there are varying levels of literalness. But in Mormonism, it’s really all or nothing. It’s expected to give your 100% to its beliefs and doctrine, or there’s bound to be issues with you and potentially your membership.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Mystern: Thanks, by the way!
February 4th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
I agree with Miss Destiny on that part about taking any religion too literally. I mean, look whats going on in the middle east! I’ve traveled all over those parts and and seen it first hand. Some of the most humble and nice people i met were Muslim. Then you look at ‘ol Osama and how extreme he takes the religion bit. I know i’ll probably get some backlash for this comment but I say that theres nothing wrong with (most) religion, it’s the people that spoil it by misconstruing(sp?) teachings.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Another interesting list.
I have to believe that’s true about Mitt Romney. Everyone kind of makes believe it doesn’t matter about him being Mormon but you know it’s on the back of every bodies mind. It he gets the Rep. Nomination (Which he probably won’t) All of this weird stuff would be bound come to the surface.
It might not seem fair but I guess everything is fair in love, war & politics.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Mormons have a pretty weird religion, second to scientology.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
As a tangent to number 3, one thing I have never understood is why religious people use the fact that you won’t go to “heaven” and be “close to god” after you die as a natural reason you should accept their faith as your own. As an agnostic, I’d rather not have to be surrounded by religites when I die…long live the “terrestrial kingdom” where carnal law rules! I spend enough time being downtrodden by religiosity here on earth to have to put up with it in the afterlife!
February 4th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
I have an idea. How about everyone just be nice, smile and wave at each other and call it a day
February 4th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
downhighway61 and phunniemee:
I agree that if you drink 5 cups a day that coffee is bad for you. But that is why you do things in moderation. I do know that people addicted to Crystal Meth will get like 6 shots of expresso when they can’t find any drugs b/c it gives them the same high. I think I would have a heart attack!
February 4th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
MarkJ – Where’s the fun in that?
You have a right to believe anything you want and it’s my right to ridicule it mercilessly. It’s more entertaining to watch some folks fire up that weed whacker engine of a brain and try to defend their stupid opinions and beliefs. At that point we can all sit back at watch the goons in our audience demean and poke fun at them. Can I be a pain in the ass? Sure!! But a few days ago I was laughing so hard at one of the threads in here I had milk coming out of my nose and I haven’t drank milk for about a week.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I agree with MarkJ’s comment (#56). And doesn’t it say somewhere in the Bible (for the christians)that you will not be judged for things you do not know. So therefore, I don’t believe you will be go to Hell just b/c you were raised to believe a certain way or have a certain religion. Just be a good person.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
phunnieme: I’ve totally seen it. One of my favorite South Park episodes. If you haven’t seen it I definitely recommend watching it. It definitely gives a new perspective on the religion not to mention its f-ing hilarious!
I’m from Nevada and Mormon population here is downright insane. I know a lot of them personally and they are usually very nice people that have good family values. But those listed above are not their only strange beliefs and practices. They constantly send missionaries to every house on your street, and they are hard to get rid of. Also, I’m not sure if this is still true but something that I always found kind of hypocritical was that the Mormons actually own the Coca Cola company. Also Utah has one of the highest percentages of meth users, coicidence? Damn blue collar tweekers! Sorry that may have been a little out of line, but from my experience its very common.
As far as polygamy goes, I think that originally the Mormons were polygamists but they broke away from the practice because it was so looked down upon. However polygamists do still exist in Utah, specifically Colorado City. I’ve seen some news programs, and documentaries on them and they are some strange folk. The male with the most power in their church lives a lavish lifestyle with many wives while the rest of the community lives in near poverty and horrible living conditions. I’ve seen it with my own eyes while driving through.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
hgaratie- first, i’m sorry i misspelled your name in my previous comment. i noticed it after i posted it.
and….
well, theoretically you could shoot heroin in moderation, and smoke cigarettes in moderation. it seems like it’s more of a “why tempt yourself?” and it kind of reminds me of the reasoning behind religious jews not touching members of the opposite sex unless you are married or related to them, because it could lead to temptation. (actually, we jews have a lot of preventative measures) coffee may not seem like a bad thing to you or me, but it still contains a stimulant. it really does make sense from a religious point of view.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
toolnut- are you from las vegas?
February 4th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
downhighway61: no, I’m from Northern Nevada, about 3 hours away from Salt Lake City
February 4th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
toolnut-
i would like to see the rest of the state, i live in las vegas and i’m sick of it.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
downhighway61: well I would say come on up, (it’ll take about 7 hours to get here from Vegas) but there’s really not a lot to do up here, unless you drink. Its really pretty country (some of the most beautiful skies I’ve ever seen), very conservative, and there are a lot of Cowboy types. In fact the National Cowboy Poetry gathering just came to a close this weekend. I think it would be a bit of a culture shock to you if you’ve never been in these parts before.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
actually, i’m from new york. i’ve only been in las vegas for about 4 years. the west in general is a culture shock to me.
i’m going to be driving back east before we move to england so i may try to go up that way, see something new and all. i want to drive through wyoming, i haven’t done that yet.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
It’s definitely worth it just to say you’ve seen it. You might want to wait a couple months if thats possible. We’ve had record snow fall this year (like over a foot and a half all together). As soon as we get the streets semi-cleaned up it snows again.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
hahaha!!! i’m sorry. a foot and a half is nothing. well to me anyway. we would get like 2 feet in one snowfall. i remember trying to get to the end of my driveway one winter and i slipped and got stuck in the snow, it was so damn deep. but yeah, we can’t leave here until may anyway. military says so. but i’m going to try to convince my husband to go up that way. the only problem is 15 doesn’t go that way, and 95 is completely out of the way.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints myself, and it makes me laugh at how strange you think “us Mormons” to be
its really not all that absurd! i mean someone cutting out carbohydrates from their diet because it isn’t good for their body is pretty much the same as me saying that i wont drink alcohol or smoke. right? and tithing: God has given us everything, bodies, trees, houses, happiness, etc. why cant we give him 10% of what we earn? Well, i believe it with all my heart and soul
February 4th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
you’d need to take 93 up towards Ash Springs, then turn off onto State Hwy 318 towards Lund, then hop onto I6 then back onto 93 (this will take you through Ely) stay on 93 til you hit I80, then go west on I80, we’re about a half hour from the 93 turnoff.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
given that these beliefs, and many others, contradict christian docrine, why are mormons still considered “christian”?
and to get back on the conversation earlier in the posts, if you are going to subscribe to any set of beliefs, shouldn’t you do it all the way? isn’t mediocrity hated in just about every capacity? if i have to have an emergency surgery, i sure hope that my surgeon isn’t a half-hearted surgeon, only believing some of what a “fundamental” surgeon believes. i hope that he is “all-in” when it comes to the doctrines of that profession.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
None of these are uniquely strange. In fact, you could probably find equally strange things in any religion, from catholicism to zoroastrianism. As far as I know, denying the holy spirit is the only unforgivable sin in ALL of christianity.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
MarkJ: I believe that there’s no harm in believing what you want to believe in, if it makes you a better person. In my experience, religions basically teach “Be excellent to each other.” It’s the people who tell others, “Just read this part here and try not to think too hard about it,” or “Everybody MUST believe this way,” is where it all goes downhill.
Wicca is a modernized version of the religion that existed prior to the others. As such, I believe that Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Budda, et al. were excellent teachers. Too bad that organized religion has twisted what they stood for and what they believed. I also believe that if the first three I listed saw what was going on in the middle east with the blood spilled over the Holy land, that they would be going, “What the do you think you’re doing?!? Learn to live together in peace and don’t make us come there ourselves!”
February 4th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Jamie: I think that, atleast in my eyes, the practices of the Mormon religion aren’t all that strange. It’s the rumors you hear of the practices once you get higher up in the church that really make me cringe. I have spoken with people that were once very high up in the church and the things they told me really just bring question to LDS credibility.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Jamie: One more question. . . What’s with most of the Mormon churches always having a basketball court inside? I realize its a fun game and all but every LDS church I’ve been to has one.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Its for the youth programs (the basketball hoops) and also serves as a multi-purpose room for overflow seating, any parties and things of that nature. and there is also a funny movie called church ball with gray coleman, its pretty funny. You probably won’t get some of the jokes if you aren’t LDS though. Check it out if you can.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
If the mormon bible was written in the 1800s, why does it use very old english speech? because it was copied straight from the King James bible.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Hi all, I’m a member of the LDS church. In my experience, beliefs of the faith that are construed as weird are often extremely misunderstood. For example, using crashgate’s comment – the Bible that Mormons use is the King James Bible. There is no seperate Bible. Mormons do believe in additional revelations and scripture, and those are found in The Book of Mormon and The Doctrine and Covenants, along with other texts. To suggest that Mormons “copied” the Bible is ignorant.
If you consider the theological background behind such things as the Mormon processes of covenant making (for example, baptism, the sacrament, and marriage sealings that take place in the temple), and the importance of our beliefs in the work we do for our ancestors, it actually is all very logical and makes a lot of sense. I appreciate that the author of this article provided scriptural support, but some of the claims are not accurate, nor provide the proper doctrinal context. I’m very tired of my faith’s beliefs being misunderstood and misinterpreted. We believe that the true word of God is active on the earth today, and that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ established a plan of happiness for mankind. Critical to that plan’s success was the understanding that man must be obedient to the commandments of God. With the understanding that man would be imperfect, Jesus Christ willingly sacrificed himself for the world to give mankind the opportunity to repent, grow, and return to live with our Heavenly Father, and the presence of our Savior indicates the merciful nature of this plan. As we covenant to obey, we’re pleased to not only return to our Heavenly Father, but are also blessed to do so with our families. That’s the core of the belief.
I try to have a great relationship with my wife. We’ll try to raise kids properly when that time comes. We work hard, obey the law, and try to be good people to everyone around us. I feel people like this are not the ones that should be so misunderstood.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Mystern; Wonderful list and not nasty at all! The tithing thing is practice/law with the Jehova Witnesses as well. Did you know why JW’s do a lot of evening contract cleaning? I asked. Because it is part of their duty to proselytize. You can’t do that if you’re at work 9 to 5. Gotta convert everyone.
Oh, and I saw the gold plates of Joseph Smith…Yup they were in a movie at the LDS temple up the road…..
February 4th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I was a bit scared to see the title, but the list is pretty well researched and put together. I’m not offended at all to see these things, actually, they seem to stimulate healthy discussions.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
This list is very curious…and I can’t help remembering Monty Python and the Holy Grail, in the dialogue preceding the throwing of the Holy hand grenade when the priest goes:
“And the Lord spake, saying, “First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.”
I’m sorry but I had to share, it’s just too funny (no offense)
February 4th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Crazy Sh*t!
February 4th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Although I find Mormons to be quite eccentric, I have nothing against them. I like this site a lot due to it’ honesty without offending people, unless you deny the Holocaust or are a Scientologist of course!
And don’t forget everyone, support Anonymous and on February 10th is a worldwide protest against Scientology! Unless Tom Cruise summons the ancient Thetans and take all our money!
February 4th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
I’m trying to convince my wife to convert to Mormonism. Not that I want to give up my single malt or my morning coffee, it’s just that with polygamy you have to date your new wives for a couple of years, each, don’t you? That could be fun.
February 4th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
El duderino: Contrary to popular belief that Mormons are All polygamists, it’s only the more radical of the sects that believe that it is, in the eyes of God, right. This needs to be cleaned up quick, It’s like saying Satanists still practice Human Sacrifice. I would know I’m “half” Mormon.
ProgRapture: I’m There!!! I don’t usually do anything on the B-day, this time I think I’ll make an exception.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
People like to bash on the Mormons a lot and I just don’t understand. A lot of the people who do, ritualistically devour the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ themselves every Sunday and don’t see anything weird about it. As a former Mormon and current atheist, I view religion with great respect and even more so when it’s practitioners exhibit great tolerance.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Well, one (the only) good thing scientology has done is make every other religion seem a lot less bizzarre….and what does ‘LDS’ stand for btw?
February 4th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Latter Day Saints
February 4th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
As a member of the faith since I was eight years old. I can tell you that you can be forgiven for murder. But not for denying god. And denying god is a lot harder than it seems. For mormons it means having to have seen and heard god personally. As in seeing him as a person, and THEN denying him. LDS Stands for Latter Day Saints. Mormonism is actually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Polygamy as it was brought up is practiced by FLDS faithfuls. That religion is a religion that stemmed off of Mormonism. When polygamy was banned by the church more than a hundred years ago some people disagreed with it and went off on their own.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Mormons are considered Christians because they believe in Jesus. Any religion that believes in him is considered Christian.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Amanda, just because a group believe in jesus does not mean that they are part of or affiliated with a christian church. The way the mormon church views jesus is completely different from the other denominations of christianity, as well as the fact that all of their other views are completely different, if not in exact opposition of the christian church. Its like if i said i was hungry for a sandwich and you gave me a wrench in between 2 peices of bread….its on the right track, but just not as savory and delicious. Plus instead of having the satisfied feeling being full, i would have chipped teeth and medical bills. Also i would have to poop a wrench.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Thank you Adia.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
as far as i understand, when a doctrine of the Bible conflicts with the book of mormon or the D&C, the weight is given to the latter. that seems pretty weird given that they say that the Bible is the true revelation of God.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Toolnut: “Those Damn blue-collar tweekers, There beloved in this here town.”
February 4th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
number 100…man if u think thats crazy you should hear this lady http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_%28book%29
she was part of an extremist part of mormon church, married at 18 to a 50 year old man and programmed to believe that the way to heaven is by sexually pleasing her husband. she escaped later once her son got cancer and she was told it was God punishing her…amazing story..
February 4th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
I’m sure this has already been pointed out somewhere in the comments, but the most bizarre belief Mormons have is that Joseph Smith dug up a set of golden plates that only he could see.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Booya; rofl, but I gotta tell you that their beliefs (not the organization or hierarchy) are only marginally weirder than we christians. If of course you were being purely analytical.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
I am still catching up on all the posts. I called my mom ealrier this evening. She converted to Moron, oops I mean Mormon when I was 16. I did not convert with her. She always believed in Freedom of religion. She is married to a Jew. Anyway. She replied to me sending her the link to this list. I wondered how true it all was. This was her reply:
Yep, all true. And the later ones, I agree, are weird. Not so sure I think the alcohol one is all that weird and the hot drinks thing is not followed by most Morons er I mean Mormons.
But why did they show a Catholic confessional regarding the Forgiveness one, I wonder? They certainly changed the picture of The Prophet quickly enough, too.
Mommy
She doesn’t know the list was just made so the picture wasn’t changed.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Amanda- Mormons are the only one’s who consider themselves “Christians”. The Protestant and Catholic church do not consider Mormon’s to be Christians. They consider Mormonism to be a “Pseudo-Christian cult”.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Booya-
You can believe in Jesus and not be a part of a ‘Christian’ church. The word Christian means believer of Christ. I personally believe in Jesus, but I am not affiliated with any organized religion. Many people use the term Christianity as a crutch, or to justify their own biases. If people would actually read the Bible, they would know that true Christians love everyone and do not judge others. Mormons are in fact Christians, because they believe he was the son of God. Jews are not Christian because they believe that he was just a prophet.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
The Protestant and Catholic Churches can consider the Mormons to be whoever they want. Just like I can consider a Watermelon to be delicious while someone else thinks it’s disgusting. The opinion of the Mormons is the only one that matters. Personaly, I think many Christin sects are cult like and pseudo-christian, because they don’t follow the basic things that Christ says. The bible doesn’t say ‘Love everyone except for homosexuals’ I have first hand expirence with this since I grew up in a Southern Baptist household.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
and it’s past my bedtime and my mental spellcheck has stopped working…;-)
February 5th, 2008 at 1:24 am
Oops,just noticed my mistake.Great list Mystern:)
February 5th, 2008 at 2:18 am
Is anyone familiar with the Living Springs Church? They’re pretty much a cult too.
February 5th, 2008 at 3:01 am
Actually Mystern, there was a breakaway sect after Joseph Smith died that continues to practice polygamy. They may be about to die off though, as they believed in hereditary inheritance of the leadership of their “church”. The last male heir (the only one who can assume the mantle of leadership for that church), is not too awful long for this world, and it must be a direct descendant of Smith for him to become their leader.
Also, if you’ve been following the news; a ranking member of that cult is now going to spend the rest of his life in prison for crimes committed in his official capacity, insisting that those crimes were only enforcement of church dogma.
February 5th, 2008 at 3:24 am
Mormonism is not a cult.
That is just ignorant.
February 5th, 2008 at 6:35 am
Alright, from the top;
toolnut: The LDS church does not own Coca Cola. The largest single shareholder in the Coca Cola company is Berkshire Hathaway, who owns 8% of the company, worth approx. 11 billion. While the LDS church may have a lot of money, the coffers would run dry long before 137 billion.
Ruko: I was born and raised LDS. I know for a fact that none of these scriptures were taken out of context and that every one of these things is in fact actually believed by the LDS church.
IDreamOfSpace: This list was not intended to bash on Mormons. In fact I wrote this list to dispel myths about some of these things.
Adia: You are incorrect. In the LDS faith you can be forgiven for manslaughter, not murder.
JwJwBean: The catholic confessional is because it was the only picture I could find that nearly everyone would associate with forgiveness.
And a last note to all the LDS members who have contributed to the comments, thanks. The majority of you recognized that I was trying to be truthful and accurate in my presentation of this list and supported me for it. Again, thanks.
February 5th, 2008 at 7:52 am
If you all didn’t get it from my mom’s reply to me the moron/Mormon comments are meant as a joke. I have many Mormon friends and as I said my mother converted to Mormon also.
February 5th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Mystern; I don’t think that not being forgiven for murder is a bad thing. Murder, like intentionally for some sort of gain, either financial or personal; You don’t deserve to be forgiven.
February 5th, 2008 at 9:38 am
surprised not to see the top 3 (IMHO)
1. undergarments
2. baptism for the dead
3. polygamy (have you see the HBO show “Big Love”? hilarious!)
February 5th, 2008 at 9:43 am
Mom424: I agree to an extent. It’s kind of like debating the death penalty though. Everyone will have their own opinions and no one is ever going to agree.
Copperdragon: I did not include items on other lists and polygamy is no longer being practiced by mainstream Mormons
February 5th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Mystern; for your info…I don’t believe in the death penalty…it is administered by humans and we are not infallible. (in Canada, Steven Truscott, Donald Marshall,Guy Paul Morin, not dead because we have no death penalty)It is even more tragic in places like Texas where they are all horny for retribution. That said, I do believe in punishment. Karla Holmoka having Lesbian sex daily and hetero sex through the fence with some psycho sickened me…and Clifford Olsen and his nuisance suits that we pay for….
Life at hard labour,,,,ok by me
February 5th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Mom424: Think about it this way. Let’s say, hypothetically speaking, you came home from the grocery store and found your entire family murdered. Think about it. Think about each of your four sons lying there dead on the floor. There has been an obvious struggle, and before one of your family members died of their wounds, they managed to knock the killer unconscious. There is his gun, lying there on the floor, still loaded. What would you do, knowing that in Canada this man will live out the rest of his life?
Or imagine coming home to find your husband cheating with your sister. What’s more, he says that he has never loved you and has been with your sister since before you were married. What would you do?
Yes, these are extreme examples, but such is the nature of life. Extreme things happen. I am positive that in each situation you would have done what you felt was best. You might not have felt it was the right thing to do but I’m sure you thought it was the best thing you could do in the circumstance. Because, let’s face it, if you didn’t think it was the best thing you could do, you wouldn’t have done it.
Such is the case for every human being in existence. I’ve done things in my life that I know were stupid and looking back I don’t think it was the best thing I could have done. But I know that at the time I thought my actions the best possible. Everyone has a reason for what they do. If I kill a mass murderer, should I be forgiven? If I am forgiven, then why not the mass murderer himself? At what point do we draw the line? Why are my reasons for killing more valid than his reasons? The moral compass society lives by is very unjust.
The reason I included number 2 on this list is because I’ve come to the realization that the moral compass religion gives God is just as unjust. We do not know God’s mind and therefore cannot project our morality upon him. Imagine being forgiven for anything an infinite amount of times simply because you ask. Versus someone suffering eternal damnation because they did not ask for forgiveness even though they never sin again. The difference is the first man enjoyed his sin and rejected his enjoyment of it, thus leading him to sin again. The second man though, recognized his enjoyment of the sin and because of this was filled with such remorse that he decided to never sin again. He also felt such remorse that he felt he could never be forgiven, thus without forgiving himself (a major part of repentance in any religion), he was unable to ask God for forgiveness and was subsequently never forgiven.
February 5th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Mystern; Husband cheating with sister – I would not consider that murder for gain,its losing it and it is manslaughter
My family murdered – of course I would personally want those suckers dead – but as a society I believe we must behave in a manner better than that. If you haven’t seen the interview with Alison Parrot’s mom(child murdered by Francis Carl Roy) it is amazing. Forget Mother Theresa, this woman should be canonized.
I do believe that there are things we should not forgive ourselves for, understand maybe, but forgive? When I was a teenager I once did the mob thing to someone. You know a bunch of us just tormenting the hell out of a girl cuz she had big boobs, many boyfriends or something; We pinned her down and wrote slut on her forhead or something equally awful. I won’t ever forgive myself for not sticking up for her, I understand the stoopid teenage need for acceptance is why I stood by and laughed. I am a better person because of it. I have never done anything like that again, and when I witness injustice or cruelty I speak up. God can forgive me and maybe even Janet P., but myself,,,I think not
February 5th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Exactly. You prove my point. The moral compass of the individual is subjective to the point of being nonexistent.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Amanda: You said, “The bible doesn’t say ‘Love everyone except for homosexuals’” I now direct your attention to the following quote:
If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. Leviticus 20:13
It really doesn’t get any clearer than that.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Mystern; Do you mean that their are no moral absolutes? That nothing is always wrong? Sorry if I’m being obtuse. I’m not arguing but I need clarification.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Miss Destiny: You need to realize that the bible is wrong on this fact.
You can’t help who you love, you just can’t and for ANYONE to try and tell someone otherwise… well they need to pull their head out of their ass and take a glimpse in the real world. Because the moment anyone and I mean anyone tries to tell me who I am allowed to love (I am straight) I will be shoving their head so far up their ass that they will be talking through their belly button.
How would you feel if you were told that you were not allowed to love someone with brown hair or green eyes or that was left handed. That is how ridiculous this is.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I’m not saying I AGREE with the Bible. I’m just saying it’s there!
Please don’t go putting words and ideas in my mouth. Sorry if I was unclear.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Mom424: No I am not saying there are no moral absolutes. I am saying there are no moral absolutes within religion that allow for justice. I am saying there are no moral absolutes within the human psyche.
For example, I don’t consider it wrong for me to have premarital sex, for various reasons I won’t go into. But other people do consider it wrong.
There may or may not be such a thing as absolute morality, I don’t know. If it does exist then there is a line and that line is either unfair, or “all or nothing”. If the line says I can sin 5 times then it’s unfair to the one who sins 6 times. If the line is drawn at 1 sin then it’s fair, but hard.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Miss Destiny: I apologize for puting words in your mouth but when someone quotes the bible to prove someone else wrong, there is a tendancy to believe that they are backing up what they quoted.
My apologies.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
SocialButterfly: No harm no foul. I was just interested by Amanda’s comment and felt the need to reply.
February 5th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. Leviticus 20:13
That is in the Old Testament. Christ didn’t come along until Matthew, the New Testament. John 3:16 reads ‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
It does not say whosoever except homosexuals. I find the Old Testament to be crap and not part of the Christian religions. How can it be Christian when it pre-dates Christ? I think it’s all myth and folklore, much like the Greek Gods and Godesses. Christ was a great man and a great teacher, and his work is overshadowed by controlling zealots who killed every innocent person who disagreed with them. If people would just concentrate on Christ’s message of love this world would be a much better place.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Mystern; Aha, lightbulb engaged. (kids in the andes eating human flesh, or borneo headhunters for that matter)Your point is true, thus my lack of belief in organized religion. I am hoping though that there are moral absolutes within the human psyche. Maybe thats what evil is. No lines you won’t cross.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Mom424: Evil? Evil is an invention of the powerful to scare the masses into submission. As are the concepts of right and wrong. If there is absolute evil or absolute good in the universe humans will never find it. By your definition I would be considered evil during certain circumstances. How can I consider someone who does only as they see fit as evil? To claim thus would make every single individual within the human race evil.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Mystern; And Joseph Mengele did only what he saw fit… I disagree, rather vehemently, evil was not created by the masses, but perpetrated by them. I have no problem believing in evil, its really the only logical reason I believe in god.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Mom424: You argue semantics. Nevertheless I see your point. I still maintain that every human action is a choice and every choice made is the best possible choice, as seen by that individual, at that time, under those circumstances.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Mystern; We will agree to disagree, but in my personal example, I did not make the best possible choice.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Mom424: Very well. We can agree to disagree but the question I ask you is this:
You see your choice as bad. But that is in reference to where you are now. When you made the choice did you see it as a bad choice? If so why did you make it? You may say that you don’t know why you made it but the truth is you saw it as the best thing you could do in the circumstances. I believe you are confusing what I am saying. I am saying you made the best possible choice for you. Not necessarily what you saw as right or good, but what you saw as best of the options available. As a matter of fact you may have at the time seen it as the worst (morally speaking) thing you could have possibly done. However, if you did not see it as the best (psychologically speaking) choice, why did you make that choice. for that matter, why do you make any choices?
February 5th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Mystern; Holy Hannah, we’re taking the chicken/egg debate to whole new levels….
I have to think and process all of this, also household drudgery awaits,,,we will continue a little later
February 5th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Dont know if this was covered but as far as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young not being forgiven of murder, thats an easy one. They had a hitman so to speak. The guys name was Porter Rockwell. Heres the link for from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Rockwell
February 5th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
What if the Mormons are right and our god is some guy named Bob from New Jersey who happened to be a really good Mormon?
February 5th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Toolnut: hahaha yeah, pretty much every Mormon church has a basketball court inside
its great isnt it? hahaha Well, this way we can play basketball all year round! I see it as a good way for the young men to have fun and keep out of trouble.
It also provides a good way to bond. So why not inside? Thanks for your insights as well
February 6th, 2008 at 3:04 am
amanda: I agree w/ you, one reason why I avoid Christian religions in general. I also avoid those who are quote happy of Paul’s writings. It makes me laugh especially when I remember Harry Dean Stanton playing Paul in “The Last Temptation of Christ”, even though in Christ’s vision on the cross that he didn’t die, Paul still became preachy happy even without a savior.
Here’s a scripture for the forgiveness thingy Alma 39:1-6
Another bizarre Mormon belief I thought of the other day, when Christ visited the Americas he chose another 12 apostles and asked what they desired. 9 wanted full lives, but wanted to ascend to heaven eventually. The other 3 were granted immortality and are still walking around to this day.
Check out 3 Nephi 28:1-25 or go here if you don’t have a BOM:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/28/7-8,25,37-38#7
Verse 25 is especially giggle worthy.
Now I’ve started to settle most of my beefs with the LDS church. I’m not like the nutters at exmormon.org, though I used to be. To me any organized religion is bizarre. Some beliefs may be bizarre, but damn, I fear the “bizarre” people even more: Mike Huckabee is a fruit, so is Fred Phelps, Louis Farrakhan, Pope Benedict, Ted Haggard, James Dobson, Tom Cruise, Warren Jeffs and many others. (Not to say these people are bad or evil, don’t get me wrong, I just don’t want them dictating my life)
All I ask of people is to not judge and be aware of other things. Don’t get so close minded when people judge your beliefs. Read the Bible, the Qur’an, the Book of Mormon, the Gnostic gospels, the Rig Vedas, Tao te Ching, etc. If you want less scriptural reading the Dummies and Idiot’s Guide books on any religion are pretty well informed, ie Religion for Dummies.
I’d avoid books by Karen Armstrong (decent, but not for the layman anyways) and anything published by Regnery Publishing, Inc or the “Politically Incorrect Guides” (very conservative bias that slanders anything non-Protestant Christian). If you want to learn more about atheism Sam Harris isn’t as annoying as Richard Dawkins, but they’re both “holier than thou” atheists.
Hell if you don’t like to read there are some good movies and documentaries out there too. “The Message” (about Islam), “The Last Temptation of Christ” (”The Passion of the Christ” is just pointless, imo), “Jesus Camp” and “Fall from Grace” are good documentaries about extreme “Christianity” (very loose term there), and if you’re curious about early Christianity simplified yet not stupefied, check out “From Jesus to Christ”. If you can get your hands on them, Mormon seminary videos can be decent, a little propagandistic, but it makes somethings simple. The old Book of Mormon cartoons are just too weird.
I haven’t found many good movies on Eastern religions, if anybody knows of any please let me know.
Knowledge can help find the means to eliminate intolerance, or at least lubricate the grindstone better.
And if nothing else check out religioustolerance.org and religiousworlds.com, these are some great sites.
My two cents, if everybody had an open mind maybe they wouldn’t feel so threatened. This includes Muslim, Christian (yes, I’m sticking Mormons in there), Jew, atheist, agnostic, Baha’i, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.
Ecclesiastes 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.
(Is it foolish to quote the Bible when I said to research other things? ;])
February 6th, 2008 at 9:36 am
“…believes in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as separate beings.”
That’s what Muslims believe also.
God is creator
Jesus is prophet
Holy Spirit is angel
February 6th, 2008 at 10:57 am
You forgot one most excellent belief of mormons, that of course was abandoned in the name of political correctness( I didn’t know god’s word was so tempermental) .
Mormons believe that :
The angels that fought on the side of lucifer became demons.
The angels that fought on the side of god became aryan white people.
The angels who did not fight at all…. became black people!
Hahahaha makes sense to me.
February 6th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Mount Teetar: Close but not quite. Official church documents list it as spirits who were “less valiant” in the war in heaven became black people, but there were no bystanders.
February 6th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Some of the comments on this list are just retarded. Mormons are not any more strange then any other bible toters. At least you don’t see them involved in scandals on a regular basis.
February 7th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Mystern; I’ve been processing our little debate for the last few days, trying to figure out why my bullshit (read common-sense) detectors were firing…I couldn’t quite figure out why because I finally understand what you are saying and don’t really disagree. I think I figured it out. I was actually thinking about Anne Perry (author, co-killed her friends mom when caught up in fantasy/love relationship in her teens). The problem I was having is just semantics, but important semantics. Instead of correct choice, I think more apt, “only” choice psychologically speaking….
February 7th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Mom424: I’m glad you finally got it. The thing most people don’t realize is that everything we do in life is the best we can do at the time. After the fact we may kick ourselves in the ass, but at the time if we saw any other viable alternatives we would have taken those.
I’ve come to the realization that people get caught up lamenting the past thinking there was something they could have done differently. You know those people who are stuck in the same place in their lives? They always make the same mistakes? They are the ones most caught up in the past. They so fervently believe they could have done something differently that they recreate the same situation and make exactly the same mistake and then wonder why they are so miserable.
I’ve realized that I really did the best I could have done in the past, considering the circumstances. I’ve also realized, while it’s important to remember the past, it doesn’t really have any effect on my current situation. Just because I made a bad decision in the past doesn’t mean the decision I must make right now is bad. It has to do with living in the present, and letting go of the past, and the future. What will come will come, you have no say in that whatsoever. And it’s not possible to change the past. The only time you can affect is right now. Period.
February 7th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Mystern; what do you do in real life? You should teach.
February 7th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Mom424: Teach what? For the longest time I wanted to be a teacher. Actually, I’ve aspired to many things in my life. Teaching, architecture, science, literature, business and engineering to name a few. You see how varied my tastes are? Right now I’ve ended up as a corporate junkie doing quality assurance. Basically, I listen to phone calls all day long and make sure the company can’t get sued. For a while there I was in sales, and I”m going back to do sales (door to door, no less) this summer.
Above all else there is one thing in my life I’ve wanted to do. Write. I’ve thus far in my life not had the willpower to do it. The hardest part about writing is just sitting down and doing it. It’s not always easy. You can’t always write fifteen pages in a couple hours, sometimes it only ends up as fifteen sentences. That’s what’s hard about writing. I’ve just never had the willpower thus far to just sit down and do it.
February 7th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Mystern; I also did sales for years, the varied interest thing gives you something in common with almost everyone, makes the sales easier.
The reason I said you should teach is that you tend to provoke thought. What the best teachers do. It doesn’t really matter what subject; the best teachers/profs I had went off-topic always. I believe teachers to be under-paid and under-valued, at least the good ones….
February 7th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Mom424: That is true. Although I believe that could be said for most of the valuable people in society.
February 7th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
I don’t know if it’s considered a bizarre practice, but it’s certainly an interesting fact: The LDS’ family records are an excellent resource for genealogical information. They keep very thorough familial records.
February 7th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Almost forgot – on the practice of tithing and the comment made earlier about God giving us everything, um, can someone tell me exactly what the Creator of Everything (On A Non-Existent Budget) needs with 10% of my money? I think He would be happier knowing my family is fed, clothed, educated, and kept healthy. You know, seeing as he’s supposed to love us all, and such.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
I have a close friend who’s morman, but she’s refreshingly sane.
February 13th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
I live in Brazil, it’s funny to see al kind of foreigner people walking wearing the same clothes (the ‘elders’), entering in the ‘favelas’ to doctrine poor people, LOL. My father (74y.o.) is a kind of new-mormon and I caught him begging my for a cup of hot and delicious coffee!
One day he invites me toa party in the ‘church’, people saw me smoking and almost expel me from the ’sacred place’ (the church car parking), calling the Priest to explain me ‘why I can’t smoke there). Haha, i never came back, they’re weird!!!
o___º
February 14th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
hhmmm lets see everyone hear is saying what they think mormons believe.
yet no one is actually talking to a mormon they are just talking about their own missunderstandings.
dumb dumb dumb
February 14th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Most of my family is Mormon. Any comment that I see as out right Ignorant I respond to. I know what mormons think. No matter how Weird(fucktarded) Mormons may be, I still understand the train of thought. Keep your generalizations to yourself… All of you.
February 14th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
COmment 103. I said I had called my mom who is a Mormon to ask how true these were. Her reply is in that comment. I also seem to remember I a lot of posts that they are either an exmormon, current mormon, or married to a mormon. Not all the posts, but many of them. And I belive the person who made the list was either Mormon, exmormon, or married to one.
February 14th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I wrote the list and I was born and raised LDS and I know for a fact that all of these are correct.
February 22nd, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Mystern: I apologize for my not knowing about the murder thing. I’ve been going to church for sixteen years and it never occurred to me to seperate manslaughter from murder. I don’t disbelieve you, but where can I find that?
February 25th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Adia: The difference has to do with intent. Ask your bishop. Manslaughter, is generally an accident. I know of one case in which deliberate murder was forgiven. During WWII a group of Jews were escaping a Nazi camp and one woman had a baby. They were wading across a river to escape and the baby started crying. The woman drowned the baby. Generally the Mormon church will not baptize someone who has committed murder but in this case an exception was made.
March 17th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
mom424: In your comment #83, you said that Jehovah’s Witnesses must also tithe? Where did you get that?
From all my time raised as a JW, I never knew that. I always thought one thing that made JW special was that all contributions were voluntary. In fact, all positions of the congregation is voluntary.
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:17 pm
It sounds like most of you have to much time on your hands, discussing things you know nothing about but hear through rumors. Gossip was made by the ignorant to spread lies and false stories. Satan used this tactic throughout the bible sending false prophets mingling scripture with the philosophy of man to lead the children of god away into his keep. If you want the truth as stated in the bible in the book of James 1: 5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jesus taught in parables so only those who where spiritually humble would understand the meaning of the symbolism he used. Those who were looking to condem him simply heard great stories but couldn’t understand.
If you want to know the truth seek it from the source not people who have an agenda for negativity and belittlement. Why do you think of all religons The church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints is attack so viciously since it’s inseption. Maybe because Satan wants it to fail, thus using all his rescources including blogs like this to attack and attack and attack things that just maybe true. Why would anyone seek to destroy someone looking for God except they have evil in there own hearts. Remember Jesus said Charity is the pure love of christ and those who have this with them in the end will be well in the sight of god.
Just a few things to ponder………….. Thanks for your time in reading this opinion I have read yours and have to agree to disagree with your gossip.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:32 am
Jared: As the author of this list I would like to point out a few things. First and foremost, this list was meant not to poke fun at, or attack the LDS church in any way shape or form. I am a former member of the church, and I have a great respect for it, there are simply some things i do not agree with. As a member of the church, you must know that every item on this list is true and accurate and no scripture has been taken out of context. This list is not gossip, and the commentary of each item is purely informational.
Secondly, you cannot tell me what I know and do not know. Believe me, I know far more about LDS doctrine than almost any average church member. Please do not insult me by telling me that I am discussing things that I have only heard through rumor and know nothing about.
Third, I can assure you that I do not have any agenda of “negativity and belittlement.” I am not seeking to destroy anyone looking for God or anyone’s faith. While I personally believe standardized religion to be the opiate of the masses, I will be the first to admit that it is the only thread in many peoples lives.
Fourth, it is only the opinion of the LDS church that they have been attacked more viciously than any other religion. Every religion has its naysayers and Mormons do not have any exclusive right to persecution.
I do agree with you strongly on one aspect of your comment though, every man, woman, and child should definitely develop a personal relationship with a respective higher being, be it God, Buddha, Allah or simply the universe in general.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:59 am
Well done Mystern, your list and your defense of of the rational mind, here in the comments section. The truth about the origins of Mormonism is more interesting than the myth. What you have is a gang of colorful Yankee scam artists from the early 19th Century pulling off one very long con.
April 25th, 2008 at 2:55 am
Yogi is showing my point of following without knowledge but a bias from an ex-mormon.
I don’t issue any hate or negativism but wish those who want to express themselves to make a researched informed opinion from there own personal witness or experience.
Mystern you indeed are the creator of this list to which you have a bias agenda whether you realize it or not. For your title in itself emphasizes your own belief you wish others to share with you. I do respect your opinion and have a great ability thanks to the God who led inspired men across a great ocean to “The Promise Land”, and created this “Light unto the world.” Freedom to speak, worship, and live as we may.
To your point this list is not gossip and is not taken out of context I will say the list itself doesn’t consist of gossip but the 163 posts to this list IS. Out of this list show me ONE other than myself is not a negative towards the LDS church.
“Only the opinion of the LDS Church” I think not. Nowhere in time has a free country with constutional rights to worship been attacked and hunted as the LDS church has been. There families slaughtered and women and children forced out into the snow without shoes or warm clothing. The tarring and feathering, attempted sodomy. Homes and land taken at the force of death in their wake. Ohio by order of Governer Boggs issued an “Extermination” order against free citizens of this country because of what they believed and tried to worship as their constitutional rights are. But because of fear of losing their power in government they sought their lives. This Extermination order for the lives of any who claimed to be a member of the LDS church were killed, forced to lose all they had, and was legal and in full effect until after 1970 when it was recinded. Blacks had their freedom from slavery, women had equal rights given them. Mormons were still legal to be killed under this order at these times. Not one other religon in a free country ever in history has had to endure these persistant perscutions.
In final I wish those who think they know because of some literature they got or a opinion they heard would be willing to do some research, find out for themselves if these things are indeed attributed to the pecular people of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, over 13 million strong, in over 160 countries, over 100 languages, whose humanitarism leads in many regards one of the greatest. Mystern as you know being a former member as Jesus stated the work will go forth unto every nation, tongue, and people among the isles of the sea never to be taken again off the face of this earth until the glorious return of yours and my elder brother and savior to all man kind. We all must have our own testimony because you can only survive on borrowed light for so long. Have a great weekend everyone and God Bless.
April 25th, 2008 at 3:37 am
Hi Jared. Your opinions matter here and I understand that, I would however like you to READ THE COMMENTS!
“Out of this list show me ONE other than myself is not a negative towards the LDS church.”
Me for one and if you are referring to comment 155., it was a quote. You can believe whatever you want, it’s psychos and Scientologists I don’t like.
Your info is dated.
Your stats are wrong.
And like someone else said “That’s one impressive word salad”
Question before you leave… You haven’t by any chance, recently, been to Texas have you?
April 25th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Yogi: I try not to go into the early history of the church because it is difficult to separate fact from fiction.
Crimanon: Jared’s stats are not all wrong. He is correct, there was an extermination order passed and he is correct that it is a law that fell into disuse and wasn’t bothered to be removed until the 1970’s. Also, this list deals primarily with the LDS church. The group in Texas were fundamentalists who were not sanctioned or recognized by the LDS church.
Jared: First, I did not name this list. My original title used the word “odd” instead of “bizarre.”
Second, I would like to point out comments 73, 76, 82, 89, 90, 94, 103 and 112 as comments that are not made to be negative. I did not include the ones that could be considered “questionable.”
Third, while the extermination order was signed, state laws do not take precedence over federal law, and murder is against federal law. You must also consider in the early church history it wasn’t as much of a ‘religion’ as a religious movement. I would like to point out that while The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints may be the largest Mormon religion there about a dozen of them. It’s called the “Latter Day Saint movement.” The majority of persecution is directed at the non CJC-LDS groups. Those groups are also the ones who give Mormons a bad name.
Finally, I agree that anyone who is curious about the LDS faith should seek out someone knowledgeable who can answer their questions in person. The LDS church is a wonderful institution, and I have a great respect for it.
April 25th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Mystern: 160 countries? There are only 195. To say that mormons inhabit most of the earth is egotistical and an incredible embellishment of fact.
Refer to —http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_intr.htm#stat—
The “Order” could be something akin to the extermination of the Jews still practiced Now. Illegal, in Any form of hatred, is the killing of another man.
Prominent officials —http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Day_Saint_political_history—
They had a pretty good run, Pre-1970, for being killed. No more deaths than any other historical political run.
New group on the block always catches some hell. It was no Holocaust and the only reason why LDS takes any heat now is because Extremists are the only “Mormons” that get any air time. Sure the garb is strange and the women hang out at the back of the church, how is that any different than Muslims or Jews? Your persecution has ended, relatively, Theirs keeps getting worse.
If you want to stop the stewing emotions of the under-informed. You should bring LDS into a better light. I have yet to see One LDS leader speak out against polygamy. I think this Texas fiasco would be a good start. I’ve got a few Mormon friends who would join you.
April 25th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Crimanon: Sorry for the misunderstanding. I said his stats were not all wrong. But I did not say they were all correct.
You’re right though, in your statement about persecution. I agree completely.
And as a last note about LDS leaders not speaking out against polygamy, there’s a reason. While polygamy has been officially abolished in current times, the Church still maintains that in Heaven there will be polygamy. You ask any church leader and they will tell you that polygamy has been abolished on earth, and they will likely be evasive when asked about polygamy in heaven. The official church stance is yes, there will be polygamy in heaven.
April 25th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Forsake the flesh of the earth, so that we may feed as we wish in the heavens.- Me, just now.
April 25th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Hey guys! I just want you to know that I’m a mormon and those ten things listed are absolutely true and we do believe in them. However, I would highly encourage everyone who has anything bad to say about mormons that maybe you should get to know one and you will realize that we are normal everyday people just trying to live the best we can. Oh and for the record, we are not affiliated with the FLDS church that is all over the news these days. We do not curretnly practice polygamy. Yes, there was a time in the 1800’s when polygamy was practiced but only for a very short period of time. As with all religions it takes faith to believe in them. Logic sometimes just simply won’t do. God’s ways are mysterious but one day we will know the reasons for all of His works. I just ask that you please respect the mormon church and take the time to learn about it from credible sources such as a member themself or our church literature…Some examples are lds.org, The Book of Mormon, The Ensign, the LDS Missionaries and so on. Stop turning to the opinions of those who are not members of the church or those who have posted hateful things on the internet. Anyway, wow, that was a long post! Thanks for taking the time to read it.
April 25th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
“Stop turning to the opinions of those who are not members of the church or those who have posted hateful things on the internet. Anyway, wow, that was a long post! Thanks for taking the time to read it.”
Don’t worry, I laugh at all religious people regardless of their belief system. Just kidding
April 25th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Crimanon- About your issue about the churches stance on polygamy I would like to refer you to http://www.lds.org go to the scriptures and look in the Doctrine and Covenants, go to Declaration 1 and 2.
Ashlee- Very well said indeed.
Mystern-”Finally, I agree that anyone who is curious about the LDS faith should seek out someone knowledgeable who can answer their questions in person. The LDS church is a wonderful institution, and I have a great respect for it.”
I appreciate your opinion and respect your view.
April 25th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Jared: Why do you think I’m arguing with you? I said “I have yet to see One LDS leader speak out against polygamy.” I never said that they didn’t say it, I have yet to Meet/See/Hear, Personally/Television/Vid of an LDS leader. With the amount I watch the news (laughing mostly) I’ve yet to see even “low man on the pole” Romney speak out against what is happening in the news.
MY POINT IS, this is the last time, If you (Mormons) are getting tired of the bad press Do Something About It! Even Sharpton stands up and goes “Hey, that’s not how it works!” when he gets heat from some ones twisted ideals.
Do you need the permits for a picket line? A few extra bucks for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir? Dude, you’re a representative of your faith. Teach it, preach it, I don’t care what you do with it, But Defend It! And get these people to see what It is.
April 25th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
That one went way out there didn’t it? I should get something to drink.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
“I appreciate your opinion and respect your view.”
I don’t believe that faith and worship of the supernatural deserve respect. Tolerance, absolutely, but not respect.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Jared, excuse me? WTF are you talking about? I’m not an ex-Mormon, nor am I biased against them. LDS beliefs are no more bizarre than most other religions, it’s just that you can prove that it is based on hooey. I’ve been studying the roots of Mormonism for some time now. I’ve got a rough draft of a screenplay about Smith and Co. I’m sorry dude, the golden plates were nonsense. The BOM was plagiarized, Joseph Smith was a con artist. It wasn’t a completely harmless lie either. Has it ever occurred to you that God’s greatest gift to man is his rational mind. For example, God has never created anything of substance that can only be seen by two people. That’s just not the way it works in this universe. And how pray tell, could the plates be invisible AND golden at the same time. You do know that Smith tried the same con later on by fabricating plates made out of copper. What’s up with that?
My only real beef with Mormonism is that they blur the line between state and religion in Utah. They run “for profit” businesses and claim tax exempt status, even shopping malls.
April 25th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Mystern, now you are disappointing me. It’s not at all difficult to separate fact from fiction regarding Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. They were treasure hunters who used diving rods. It is completely irrational to believe there were golden plates that only Smith and Cowdery could see, that when translated, this allegedly ancient text, contained entire passages from a manuscript stolen from Walt Whitman’s publisher. Other entire passages are from another book that was written by someone known to Oliver Cowdery. Oh yeah, one other thing, most of the “information” about native Americans and pre-diaspora Jews is provably wrong. So was Moroni a fabrication or just an ill-informed prophet?
April 25th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
If anyone here has ever studied the life of Joseph Smith you would see that this man was not a fake. Joseph Smith endured intense ridicule, violence,abuse, mockery, etc etc. No man would go through what he went through if it was false. He did not restore this church for his own fame or glory, he restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the earth.He gives all the glory to God. He was a very faithful man who God trusted to bring about His work. Like I said earlier, when it comes to God and His purposes there are some things that you just have to trust and have faith in whether or not it makes any logical sense at all. I mean I will admit that it sounds a little strange that God and Jesus Christ appeared to a 14 year old boy but it also sounds strange that a man by the name of Moses parted the Red Sea…it all comes down to faith and a confirmation of the truth of things through prayer and study. The mormon church does not worship Joseph Smith but we do regard him as a wonderful prophet. We worship Jesus Christ. Take yourself back to the times when Jesus was on the earth and ask yourself would you have believed Him back then? A man born of humble beginnings claiming to be the Son of God? How do you think the people back then knew it was Him? They had faith and believed His words. I liken that to a man by the name of Joseph Smith who claimed to be a prophet of God…its a test of faith right. Not to say I compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ-there is no man who has ever walked the earth like Him-he is the real Son of God.But, from my own personal experience I have studied the Book of Mormon, prayed about it, and received a personal confirmation in my heart that this was true. I respect the things that others believe and always wonder why it is people spend so much time and energy trying to disprove something that others hold dear. Why not use your time and energy and invest in the things you do believe in?
April 26th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Ashlee “If anyone here has ever studied the life of Joseph Smith you would see that this man was not a fake.” How do you explain L. Ron Hubbard? He went through said “intense ridicule, violence,abuse, mockery, etc etc” And he was Certified insane.
April 26th, 2008 at 12:09 am
Ashlee, I would suggest that only someone who has not investigated Joseph Smith would believe what you just wrote. He was a con artist. I know him much better than you do. I think he and his cronies were a colorful band of thieves, and truth interests me more than fiction.
If you get comfort from Mormon mythology, then be my guest. Whatever helps you get through this life is OK by me. For myself however, God is rational thought. I trust that God, if he or she exists, only gave me five senses for a good reason. If you want to know God, you must understand the laws of physics.
BTW I didn’t set out to prove or disprove anything. I knew nothing about Mormons until I picked up some literature. I actually believed there were plates made from gold, that were dug up right near my ancestral home in New York State. When I found out that only Smith and Cowdery could see them, I dismissed the religion entirely.
April 26th, 2008 at 3:08 am
You call those your top 10 bizarre beliefs? I can come up with a lot more kookie ones than that and I was raised Mormon.
1.You need a secret password and handshake to get into heaven.
2.If you don’t accept the doctrine of polygamy, you will be damned (D&C 132:1-6)
3.God lives near a gigantic planet named Kolob that is so massive it takes 1,000 years for one revolution. (Book of Abraham 3:2-4)
4.Joseph Smith put a magic rock into a hat and looked at the rock to translate the Book of Mormon. He did not use gold plates or the Urim and Thumim in the translation process. This rock is called a seer stone and is currently in possession of the LDS church.
5.Joseph Smith taught that there are people that look like quakers that live on the moon and live over 1,000 years old.
6.Joseph Smith was not wearing temple garments the day he was shot and killed. Members are instructed to wear them day and night as a shield and protection.
7.Joseph Smith had over 30 wives. His first plural wife was Fannie Alger and she was 16 and a housekeeper at the Smith’s house. His first wife Emma knew nothing about this until she walked in on them. Joseph was around 27-28 at this time.
8.Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks and women. Elijah Abel was a 70. Women and blacks were denied the priesthood under Brigham Young. Blacks can currently have the priesthood.
9.Joseph Smith lived in a small farm house and shared a small room with 5 brothers. The angel Moroni was supposed to appear to him, but didn’t wake anyone else in the room up.
10.Brigham Young taught that Adam was actually God the father and that Eve was one of God’s many wives that he brought down from heaven.
Now THOSE are bizarre Mormon beliefs.
April 26th, 2008 at 7:27 am
A con artist huh? Well, I truly am sad that is how you choose to view Joseph Smith. I hope one day that will change. Not to say that I’m hoping you will one day convert, but I hope that you can see this man for who he really was. Many people called Christ a con-artist, a liar, and I’m sure every other name in the book but He performed a work that changed mankind.Joseph Smith restored that work. But those that really knew Him (the Savior), knew that He was the Son of God. Those that have taken the time to study His words, believe and love the Savior. That is the same as with Joseph Smith in my eyes. I have taken the time to study and learn and pray about knowing if he really was a prophet of God and if he really performed such a marvelous restoration. I cannot doubt that he is not a prophet. I think it is important for you to seek out and understand why it was that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were the only ones who God wanted to view and translate the gold plates.
Try as you might to prove the mormon church wrong but you will never succeed. That may sound harsh, but I am willing to stand up for something I and so many people believe in. Something that has changed so many peoples lives and brought joy and happiness into millions of peoples hearts and homes. You might be able to assist in changing someones mind by logic, but only God can change someones heart with the truth.
April 26th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Ashlee, Joseph Smith is everything to everyone. To you, he is a divine being, to me he is an extremely interesting con man. If my movie about him ever gets made, I want Daniel Day-Lewis or Ian McShane to play him.
You’re wrong about one thing though. I could prove beyong a shadow of a doubt that BOM is a fraud. There is no way in heaven or hell that the most brilliant Mormon scholar ever, could win a serious argument on the subject. BTW I learned all about why God only wanted only Smith and Cowdery to be able to see* the plates from reading THE EMPEROR’S NEW CLOTHES.
* you used the word view instead of see. This is imprecise language. These plates were supposed to be a physical entities that were buried in the ground. How did they transform themselves from solid gold objects to something that nobody can see? Why were they buried in a 19th Century crate used to ship windows?
April 26th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Ashlee, why isn’t the universe as it really is, miraculous enough for you? Yeah Smith was a con artist( actually he committed many more serious crimes), but he was a man of his day. All white men back then used religion as a way to brutalize the natives. That is the way of the world unfortunately, and is the reason why I’m skeptical of all religious dogma, and a straight out disbeliever in the phony “miracles” performed by con men.
April 26th, 2008 at 10:05 am
That is your interpretation and opinion. I will never argue religion or point figures or accuse and I ask that you give me the same respect. Please don’t tell me how I view others and the way the world is. Religion is a personal matter and I respect others for what they believe as long as they live what they believe. However, I do not respect others who try to argue or criticize others beliefs. The mormon church will never be disproven but it will continue to spread throughout the earth and bless peoples lives.
April 26th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Ashlee, this conversation is going nowhere. You believe that a prophet from ancient times, living on the American continent, buried golden plates in a 19th Century crate, that contain childishly misinformed “facts” about Native Americans and Jews. You also believe that Joseph Smith dug these up, so they must have material substance, yet they are invisible to the objective observor, who can only see the wooden box that Joseph Smith says contains them. I’m sorry, but the Invisible Spaghetti God is much more credible.
As a social institution, I’m sure the modern LDS has a lot to offer. I have no objections to Mormonism. I’m only interested in Joseph Smith, he was the Jim Jones of his day. If any man in your temple starts behaving like Joseph Smith, you best flee for your life.
April 26th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Sometimes two seemingly opposite ideas can be equally true. While it might be true that children who believe in Santa Claus are happier than those who don’t, for me personally, one of the most joyful moments of my life was when my older brother, not only told me there was no Santa Claus, he and I snuck downstairs to watch my parents setting up the presents. I loved finding out that truth, not only because of the love I felt for my parents at the moment, but because my rational mind was having difficulty wrapping itself around the logistical problems that Santa Claus faced. Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus, and the truth of Santa Claus is even more joyous than giving and getting Christmas presents.
April 26th, 2008 at 11:50 am
YogiBarrister: When I said that it was difficult to separate fact from fiction I was referring to church history, not the history of Joseph Smith. There are few unbiased original writings that document the beginnings of the church. The life of Joseph Smith may be another matter, I don’t really know, having never had the inclination to study it.
Ashlee: I think it’s awesome that you have such faith. I wish I could have had as much faith as you. My two cents on the matter are simply this, I don’t know. I have no way of verifying one way or the other. I will be the first to admit that there is something to the LDS faith. People do receive answers and I have seen many miraculous things preformed by priesthood holders. However, I have seen the same kind of power used outside of the church. My personal beliefs are that there is a power in the universe that can be tapped into through multiple means. I’ve seen studies on the power of prayer (not of the LDS faith), and I’ve personally felt power cast by a Wiccan. There is definitely something out there, but I’m not the person to ask what.
Zelph: I did not include any temple rites on this list. They are kept secret enough to be unverifiable to the average person. I would like to know where you get some of your other facts though. I was always taught that the seer stone(s) was the Urim and Thumim. You are correct about Kolob, I thought I covered that in number 1 on the list. I knew that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy but I am curious to know where you got ‘over 30 wives’ from. I also knew that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks and women and I have never had a satisfactory answer on this matter from any church official. Many of Brigham Young’s teachings have been officially de-canonized by the church, including his teachings about Adam. And it’s fairly easy to explain how J. Smith’s brothers were not woken, Moroni was a freaking angel. If I were God I would give my angels some pretty phenomenal power.
April 26th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Thank you for your comment Mystern and for respecting me even though we may differ in our beliefs. I don’t believe that religion should ever divide people but, unfortunately, it does happen. I would just hope that anyone who has ever questioned the mormon church would take the time to learn more about it from a credible source and maybe even attend a sacrament meeting and if you find that it is not for you, then its not for you. No harm done.
As to things pertaining to God, some things cannot and will not be “proven” to us. If God proved everything to us how would he teach us faith? How would we learn to trust in Him? When something is right He will let us know in our heart but it takes work on our part to seek and study it out in our mind and heart. Again, I would invited everyone here to look at the church’s official website http://www.lds.org. I’m not saying that you should convert to mormonism, but just take the time to understand. I think you will be surprised to realize that many of the members of this church are amazing, respectable people.
The questions about polygamy are very valid and I completely understand why it is brought up so often when people talk about the mormon church. The truth is, we don’t know why polygamy was practiced when it was. But, that is how God intended things to be at that time. When polygamy ended, it ended abruptly and has not been practiced since. If you ask me, and from some of my study on this topic, polygamy was very hard for the people to practice back then. It took so much faith on their part to go through with it for such a short time but “thy will be done” was the attitude of the pioneers. I know that this may not be a sufficient answer for you, but thats all we’ve been taught. Our modern day prophets have come right out and said we don’t know why but we know that is how it was to be at that time.
The comment about women receiving the priesthood is absolutely untrue. No woman in this church has ever recieved the priesthood and never will. However, the FLDS church does practice this. We are in no way affiliated with this church.
April 26th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
(188. Mystern)
Many people have mistaken the seer stone with the Urim and Thumim, but they are different things. A good source (by an LDS author) is a biography of Joseph Smith in a book entitled “Rough Stone Rolling” by Richard Bushman. If you are interested in a biography from a church historian, that is a good book to look at.
Bushman points out that some people that were close to Joseph mistakenly referred to the seer stone as the Urim and Thummim.
The seer stone is a rock that Joseph found in 1822 when he was digging a well. This was a year before he was visited by the angel Moroni in 1823, and Joseph doesn’t receive the gold plates or the Urim and Thummim until 1827. In fact, one of the most odd things about the story is that Joseph told people he could find buried treasure with his seer stone and charged them for it. He never found anything, but he was arrested in 1826(a year before taking possession of the gold plates or the Urim and Thummim) for a crime that they called “glass looking”. He used this same method to find buried treasure as he did to translate most of the Book of Mormon. Any credible LDS or non-LDS historian will tell you this.
The names of Joseph Smith’s wives are found in the records of the church.
Here is Joseph Smith’s ancestral file from the church’s genealogical record.
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167
For more info regarding the ages of the women he married, the names and dates as well as the names of living men that the women were already legally married to (yes, that is correct, Joseph Smith married women that were also married to living men) visit this site:
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/
How about this for a strange belief:
The garden of Eden was in Missouri.
May 11th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
haha i find this kind of funny… idk why
May 18th, 2008 at 9:14 am
I really liked this list. I enjoyed how it presented facts, without being negative toward the religion itself. I don’t follow organized religion myself, because IMO most are only out for personal gain (that’s my opinion, please don’t argue with me. It’s based on things I’ve seen within my own church). But I enjoy learning about what others belief.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:32 am
The only objection I have is the idea that not paying tithing can keep someone from salvation is a weird idea. It makes me wonder how many people have read the Old Testament, I mean really? The idea of a cures for not paying tithing comes from Malachi 3: 7-10:
“7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 ¶ aWill a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”
Although it is more about honesty, the New Testament isn’t so forgiving for someone who doesn’t pay tithing like they promise. It starts out in Acts 4: with the new Christians giving everything they have to the Church membership, “32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that bought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.”
In the next chapter a couple doesn’t give everything and ends up dead:
“1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”
Those who think Mormonism is strange (especially while other religions are not) are either hypocritical or ignorant. I would love to see someone talk about the beliefs of Muslims and Hindus. In fact, I would like someone to honestly go through the Jewish and Christian scriptures in relation to strangeness. There are only two reasons modern Christianity is not seen as strange. The first is the longevity and social acceptance of the beliefs and second because most of the modern Christians (even those who call themselves Evangelicals) have rejected or ignored most of the Bible.
By the way, can someone define “Bizarre?” What makes something bizarre as opposed to not bizarre? I contend it is a highly subjective term by those who object to things they don’t believe. It says far more about personal taste than it does the subject under discussion.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:42 am
As a member of this faith I am a little disturbed by some of these comments, at least the ones saying that our doctrine conflicts with the bible.
the majority, if not all, can be directly traced to the bible. granted the wording may be different as well as context of the verse.
As for the wording of the book of mormon, JS translated it from a people who spoke in a very proper manner. So can you really be suprised that he at least attempted to convey that formality with Elizabethian verse which was taught during the 1800s as proper English?
As for the things not directly found in the bible at first glance, remember that the bible itself was not always many books compiled into the Holy Book we hold in our hands today. At the time just after the apostles they were just many manuscript that were constantly being copied and handed out to the masses, ever seen pop art? If you keep making a copy of a copy say a hundred or so different times, the last copy you made almost looks completely differnt than the original. Also, the book we know as the bible today was compiled into its current form by popular vote and not by direct revelation from God.Many of the books “Christians” considerd to be doctrine were left out and proclaimed, once again by popular vote, “Apocrapha” and heretical. A similer event happend when the Jewish Rabbis compiled the Old Testiment into the Torrah we know today.
We veiw the Book of Mormon as a more true set of scriptoral doctrine simply because the text was translated directly from the firsthand accounts from the Golden plates.
as for the List itself above, not bad.
I see little if any bias.
if any of you need an explanation for these things let me know, I am happy to answer any questions, no matter how weird. You can Contact me at the3xthecharm@hotmail.com
June 16th, 2008 at 8:30 am
Two bits of the best advice ever
Hate the sin, not the sinner
and
The Church is always true, the people not so
August 28th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Ok, so first of all I’d like to say that this is actually one of the only lists on the internet that doesn’t completely misinterpret the Mormon religion. But I would like to say a few things… Yes, we do believe in tithing, it is common in most churches but, yes, we do believe it mandatory. But that is not because we “want your money” as dangorironhide may think. We use the tithes we pay to help to strenthen and build our church. We also give money to those in need, if you look up any major natural disaster in the last 10 years (or even farther back) you will find information on how The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (yes we are called Mormons, but that is just a nick name and prefer to be called by the true name of the church)helped greatly, in each incident, take Hurricane Katrina for example. For #9, yes we don’t drink coffee or tea or alcohol, and we don’t smoke or do drugs… but this is not a completely unnautral idea. There are many others in this world who abstain from these things for the same reasons we do… they are hurtful to our bodies so why then should we drink or use them?? I think that #8 was explained very well in the listing above. #6 and #7 are probably the two that make us stand out the most from other Christian religions. We believe that a prophet, currently President Thomas S. Monson, lives on the earth today and gives revelation to us from God. We believe him to be just as an ancient day Moses because he gives us direction that helps us to all live more righteous lives and to grow closer to God, and our Savior Jesus Christ. Being a Mormon, I don’t quite understand why the idea of the Book of Mormon can seem so far fetched. It is a record of the people who lived in the Americas during the same time period as the bible was being written. In John 10:16 Jesus states “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold and them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice and there shall be one fold and one shepard” (if that is not completely written correctly i was doing it off the top of my head so i am very sorry). But if all Christians believe in the Bible, then they would believe that Jesus said this, and we believe that the people in the Americas are the some of the people that he referred to here as other sheep.
I also agree with all that the other Mormons who have posted comments here have said and would like to state again that the listing was put together very well, but that I am sad about some of the comments.
I would like to put one final thing out there… There are so many different Christian churches but none of them are really ridiculed as much as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is. Why is that?
August 31st, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Man, you are so right. I was raised Mormon & all of these are correct. Thanks to that upbringing, I am now an Athiest. Mormons are nutso dude!
September 13th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
One day maybe the Mormons posting on here will find the truth and leave the religion. Not saying that Mormons aren’t good people per say, but the religion is very strange and cult like.
Most Mormons are raised Mormon and don’t know any better–that’s why they are so astute on it being good and right. I guess if I were born in Utah then there would’ve been a good chance I’d be Mormon. Very thankful I wasn’t born there.
I became friends with a person that left Mormonism and the things they told me were very strange.
And I can’t believe that they HAVE to tithe. Religion should be free. It doesn’t mean you love God any less.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:30 am
Laura,
I think you have been misinformed about tithing. Members of the Mormon church do not HAVE to tithe. As with all things in the Mormon church you have your agency to decide what you will and will not do. Paying tithing doesn’t mean you love God more or less than the next person. It is more a sign of obedience and a trust that God will bless you with spiriutal and temporal things. When He see’s His children sacrifice their money He blesses them immensely. I know this to be true because as a member of this church I have paid a full tithe this whole year and have literally been blessed in so many ways but mostly financially.
When it comes to things like religion I am always surprised that instead of people exploring it themselves they take others word for it. There are alot of rumors out there and false information about the Mormon church. I encourage everyone who has any question or is uncomfortable with something they’ve heard about this church to go to a trusted source and find out the real truth. Be it the missionaries, a Bishop, a trused online source like lds.org, etc.. I promise you if you do this, you will find out that we are not a cult like church and this church is the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ back on the earth today. There is nothing weird or strange about us. I promise!!
Also, I think another misunderstanding about this church is that everyone from Utah is a member and somehow were tricked into it or live in a “bubble” which causes us to be blind followers of a false church. Let me tell you that if you were to come to Utah you would find that many people here are not of the Mormon faith. But, the thing that I think you’d be most surprised about is if you came here you’d find that the people who are true followers of this church know without a doubt it is true and live happy lives and are very normal people. I was born into the Mormon church which I am thankful for everyday. But I had to make the decision for myself and explore the religion and other religions by myself to know that it is true. I respect and find alot of good things in other religions but for me my happiness and faith lies in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That is just me though. But one thing that is awesome about life is that if you say you know something, nothing anyone really says can change something that you know to be true.
If there is anything I can do to help let me know. I don’t have the most eloquent way of writing because I am a simple girl but I do have an understanding of this church and more importantly of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father and am more than willing to share that with others.
Hope everyone has a great Sunday!
September 14th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Ashlee,
You are increct. While it’s true Mormons believe in agency, one of the requirements of gaining a temple recomend is paying tithing, and one of the requirements of going to the Celestial Kingdom is a temple recommend. Therefore, it must logically follow that Mormons *must* pay tithing to get into heaven.
September 14th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Mystern I appreciate your comment. Looking at it from that perspective sure yes it is required. However, the way it was implied or the way I interpreted what was said is that in order to be a member of this church you must pay tithing, which would be incorrect. I apologize if I misinterpreted what was said but yes, you are right, you must pay tithing in order to get a temple recommend.
September 14th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Ashlee,
Out of curiousity, what’s the point of the Mormon religion? I was raised (in the LDS faith) to believe that the purpose of life was to live with God again. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but wouldn’ that also logically follow that the point of life is to get a temple recommend? Thus logically the point of life is to pay tithing. I’m not saing it’s required to live, or to be a member of the religion, only that it’s required to obtain the ultimate goal of the religion. Lastly, just a qote directly from the list:
“LDS theology states that in order to make it to the highest kingdom of heaven, you must pay a full and honest tithe.”
September 15th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Mystern,
I can see the logic in what you are saying and yes, you are right one of the purposes of life is to live with God again. But, just because someone holds a temple recommend that in no way means they are going to automatically live with God again. A temple recommend is not a ticket into heaven. If only it were that easy;) If the purpose of life was to have a temple recommend I would have accomplished my life’s purpose and I am still in my 20’s! There is much more to it. I hope I can explain what I mean by anwering your next question.
What is the point of the mormon religion? I would answer that by saying it is to become like Christ. While it is so important what we do in this life, it is even more important what we become in this life. Someone can spend there whole life going through the motions of doing something just because they are told to but it is quite another thing when someone has a desire to do what is right and through doing so has a change of heart and becomes a better person because of it. So how do we become like the Savior? Through commandments and doing what God asks of us. He commands us,His children, to do things to help teach us to become like His Son Jesus Christ. Commandments are in our best interest and a way of teaching us. Since we are on the topic of tithing we will use that as an example. We are asked to pay a 10% tithe of our income. Tithing in the LDS church is used towards things such as building temples, church buildings, paying for missionaries, assisting the needy, etc. etc. The Savior paid the ultimate sacrifice for us and He has asked us to pay 10% of our earnings. What a small price to pay right? Tithing is a way to give something of ourselves. It is a built in way to be charitable and help contribute to a greater cause.
I will admit I have not always paid tithing. Not because I didn’t want to but because I was a poor money manager and would simply forget. It was about 2 years ago when I made the concious effort to pay my tithing everytime I got a paycheck. I wanted to gain a testimony of tithing and had the desire to learn the importance of it. I can honestly testify that since that time my life has been blessed immenslely in both temporal and spiritual things. I have become so much better with my money and haven’t ever been left needing for anything. I have gained a greater understanding of charity and the priviledge I have each month to give something that I’ve worked for has helped me to realize how blessed I am to have what I have. 10% is such a small price to pay to show gratitude to my Savior. There are so many ways we show our gratitude to Him and this is just one of the many ways.
It is such a wonderful blessing and priviledge to be able to pay tithing. Everything we have on this earth we owe to our Heavenly Father and His Son. Everything.
I hope this has helped others to understand why members of this church pay tithing. Thanks for giving me the chance to explain and not just assuming:)
September 17th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Good post, Ashlee.
The important thing is obedience to the commandments God gives his children. Tithing is just one commandment. The goal should be to obey all of them.
Sadly, I think the commandments are often misunderstood and viewed as punishment or restriction, when really the commandments help us to learn and like Ashlee said, become more like Christ.
It’s a lot simpler than it’s often thought to be.
September 21st, 2008 at 9:21 am
With regards tithing: How much, then, should you give? That is a question that you must resolve for yourself. The depth of your own heart appreciation for God—not some predetermined tithing formula—will determine what you give. As the Bible urges: “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver(2 conrinthains 9:7). Tithing was a provision of the Mosaic Law covenant to support Israel’s temple and priesthood. For us today, it is neither commanded nor necessary. So this idea of tithing was abloished by jesus’s death. What happens if you or sick or loose your job God understands that you wont be able to give as much. And on the other hand if you have more money than others it will be helpful to give more than 10%.
I am not a mormon and i respect their beliefs, but i would really encourage you to seek the truth before preaching false teachings.
September 22nd, 2008 at 9:57 am
Britishlad, one of the beliefs unique to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) is that God is in communication with His chosen prophets in this modern world. As such, the commandment of tithing has been renewed, and it has been explained that an honest tithe is 10%. Now, charitable giving beyond that point is certainly encouraged, but the commandment as revealed currently is that 10% of our income is devoted to the Lord.
Interestingly, before tithing was renewed as a commandment it was revealed to Joseph Smith that the members of the church should obey a law of consecration, similar to the law of consecration referred to in the New Testament after the Savior’s resurrection. This was a higher law, and unfortunately, the membership was not up to living at that standard. The Lord then reintroduced the commandment of tithing and that has been the revealed standard and is currently practiced in the Mormon faith.
My comment preached nothing false. In the realm of Mormon theology, tithing is a commandment and has been explained as 10%. If you feel that Mormon theology is false, then I suggest the burden is on you to determine whether God has chosen a prophet in modern days, and if so, does this prophet reside in the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? If the prophet doesn’t, it’s false, if the prophet does, I would think the religion bears some serious investigation and the tenents of the religion demand some application to each individual’s life.
As a close to another thing you pointed out, God understands when there are times when we are not in a position to give. We often forget that the commandments are not for God, but for man. God doesn’t need our tithes and offerings – we need the lessons learned from sacrifice, so that we can become a cheerful giver.
Obedience to the commandments as we understand them is what matters most.
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:12 am
I’m mormon and thought the list was pretty okay.
I liked how you didn’t use scriptures out of content. Personally, most of the principles I use the bible to confirm as well. Having modern revelation is good, but the Lord said, that in the mouth or two or three witnesses should every word be established. But good overall.
A little unfair to use the word bizarre, but hey its attention drawing.
I taught for two years in the south eastern united states. Including clearwater, florida home of Scientology. I didn’t realize how long it had been around, there were members of it that were born into it that had only heard of Christ. That was a change of pace, because usually I started lessons off thinking that most people knew about the Savior.
People would slam doors on me thinking I was a Jehovah’s Witness, but I’d yell before they closed it, “We’re not Jehovah’s witnesses!” Then they’d usually open the door and let us in. lol
be honest with you guys, we mormons have more in common with you then with them. We believe in the Savior Jesus Christ, that he will fulfill his promise to return again in the fullness of his Glory. we mormons believe in doing what we can to prepare for that day, that by His grace we may become perfect in Christ.
Neither Jehovah’s witnesses or Scientology believe in the Savior. Jehovah’s witnesses believe that he failed in his mission, Scientology denies his divinity as the Son of God, the creator of the heavens and the earth.
Garments are a personal issue, not all mormons wear them. I’m glad it was not on the list, I find it a little offensive to have my undies talked about.
But I can tell you that the purpose of the garments is to be a physical reminder of covenants temple going members have made to walk obedient to all the commandments of God found in the Holy Scriptures, to abstain from sin, and to follow Christ holding ourselves to a higher degree of accountability, in return we are promised that the Lord will protect us spiritually and physically so that by his grace we can fulfill our promise.
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:20 am
Mystern,
Your logic is very on key, but let me point out this missing piece with this question.
If the Lord asked for that which was most precious to you, would you give it to him?
Titheing is very minimal part of this principle. the higher law would be to say, to give up everything. Just as Christ asked the Rich young man to give all that he had to the poor and to follow him. We must be willing to do likewise.
The tithe itself does not save. LDS theology also teaches that if a man giveth a gift grudgingly it profiteth him nothing. The idea of the tithe, or even fasting (abstaining from food or drink for 24 hours) all points to a spiritual submission to the spirit of God. if your heart is in the wrong place all the money in the world will not win you salvation. but the principle of giving the Lord your broken heart and contrite spirit, giving up the natural man, and following after the example of Christ in all things. In Malachi the lord promises that he will give more abundantly to those that he tithes. btw tithe literally means a tenth. So tithing is also biblical.
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:30 am
laura,
Most mormons were not born in the church. the vast majority of its members are converts, just like my parents. I would say I am in a way since my parents were not exactly the strictest mormons, lol.
I served a two year mission of my own free choice, then I served in the military for two years. The idea of service was distilled in me from the Mormon faith.
We are not cult like, but I do realize that many try to portray us that way. We’re normal people, with normal jobs. Not all of us like Mitt Romney, just because he’s mormon, I actually think that he’s as much a lying politician as the rest of them. in my opinion.
true mormonism isn’t found in the culture of the church, which I am sad to confess, has made many doubt the message of the religion of the church. I hope that principle is clear: there is a difference between Mormon CULTURE and the CHURCH. I should say USA MORMON CULTURE, members in other countries don’t seem to have the problems we do here in the US. Utah mormons are an example of this, as the phenomenon of being in a “bubbled” community has caused many of the mormons growing up in the church to take the religion for granted and rebel against it. But this is a problem shared by many faiths in the United States and is not unique to the Mormon church.
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:56 am
Ashlee:
I did not mean to infer that everyone with a temple recommend is going to heaven, and if I did, please accept my apologies. I simply meant to say that tithing is indeed a requirement to go to heaven.
MJ: Thanks for your comment, but it raises the question in my mind, what is that which is considered most important. It astounds me the value placed on money. I’m a vain, egocentric person through and through, and I value money, however it’s far from the most important thing in my life. If god asked me personally, I don’t know that I would give up my son, I honestly don’t. As far as everything else, I might. It depends. One of the major issues I have with religion is also a major tenant of it; Believe and you shall be given proof of your belief. Seems a little backwards to me, but then again, that’s what faith is all about right?
September 22nd, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Can someone please explain this belief about tithing it still doesnt make sense to me because i have studied the truths from the bible and it clearly states that when jesus died he abolished the law of commandments consisting in decrees recoreded at Ephesians (2vs15)(check it out for yourself) In other words, in God’s eyes the Law was no longer binding on either Jews or Christians. Hence, along with other features of the Law, such as regular sacrifices at the temple, tithing was no longer required of the faithful. If mormons still keep the commandments do you sacrafice animals in your church?
In ancient Israel, tithing was commanded under the Mosaic Law in order to support God’s temple workers, the Levites and the priests. These had no tribal lands other than certain cities, so they needed this special support. If we should still follow the command of tithing where does it state it in the bible? and i dont mean from your book of mormon i would appreciate this thanks
September 22nd, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Britishlad,
This is the fist biblical scripture that came to mind regarding tithing:
Numbers 18:26
September 22nd, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Your right it states about giving a tenth part but this scripture was talking about this levites but the difference today is we have no special priestly class nor a body of sanctuary workers who cannot own land or are otherwise prevented from using their hands to the full in caring for their material needs. All the members of spiritual Israel are a “holy priesthood. So when it talks about tithing here it does apply to us.
September 22nd, 2008 at 1:53 pm
just to add an examination of the Christian Greek Scriptures gives no indication that members of the first-century church had to pay tithes so why should we today?
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Mystern,
You raise a good concern. I do not believe faith is blind and if it is, then a person is practicing something other than faith. Even Paul described that there are some evidences associated with faith. One of which is to first see the faith of others in action. One receives the first seed of faith by being preached to. Whether by voice of the Lord or one of his servants. The book of Mormon also re-enforces that faith is a hope of things unseen, but are true. True faith leads to something. there is a cause and then a reaction. Whether by faith a person repents. Or by faith a prophet moves a mountain. There is a manifestation of faith in action. True faith and virtue are always in company one with another. And Faith and Virtue lead naturally to gain a knowledge for yourself. (see 2 Peter 1:3-10)
As Christ and many prophets have repeated that a good fountain cannot bring forth evil water, neither can a evil fountain bring forth good water. The same analogy has been made with trees and fruit. So by their fruits you shall know them.
tithing is a good example to express this principle. If tithing doesn’t benefit the payer, then what value does it have? If none, then do not pay, but it you pay with real intent, I promise that the Lord’s word will be fulfilled that he spoke through Malachi that he will “open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that you shall not have room to receive it.” Mal 3:10
That is a pattern in which to prove all things. And this is a Christian principle as Paul taught in Thessalonians 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” Try it, see if it doesn’t work. Its the same invitation I gave many times as a missionary. I never wanted to bring someone into the Church unless that themselves had been converted by the Holy Spirit of God, I take modern revelation very seriously when it is said that we shall not bring any unto Baptism except they come forth with fruit meet for repentance. This is fruit is shown in the way they conduct their life and see if the gospel has brought positive and meaningful change to how they worship the Father in the name of Christ.
This is the invitation of the Book of Mormon:
” 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”
The Spirit will manifest with power to your heart, if you sincerely will follow that prompting then the Lord promises you his Spirit in greater abundance. Thus you learn, line upon line, and precept upon precept. Proving each step.
Sacrifice has not been done away with, but what is to be sacrifice has changed. We don’t sacrifice fat of rams, or animals, or burn anything with fire. We sacrifice our sins. We put our sins on the alter and we promise to give them up. we put the spiritual man before the carnality of the natural man.
And with the promise that comes of the spirit, this faith is not blind, but you will be able to prove every principle as it is revealed through obedience and as you receive grace for grace. Grace because the Lord doesn’t have to strengthen us, he doesn’t have to guide us, but he does and he gives us the strength to overcome our sins. Once he helps us conquer our sins in our lives, we are forgiven by the Power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
Mormons are not that bizarre. We are only doing what we can to fulfill the commandments Christ gave, so that we can fulfill the promises of God and Christ.
“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ” Romans 8:17
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:09 pm
I sincerely hope that those criticizing Mormons in the comments are not Christians.Talk about hypocrisy!If Mormons are “weird”,then so are Christians of every type.
There is no “God on Earth”,never was ,never will be.
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Brtishlad,
Its true. Tithing is the lesser law. And there are some indications that perhaps Church of Jesus Christ during his time practiced the higher law of consecration. Wherein you gave up all your possessions to the benefit of the poor of the church. This principle may be indicated by the rich man whom Christ invited to follow him and to give all his possessions away to the poor. In this principle the wealth of everyone is used to support the church and its people, while funds and resources are distributed according to needs, righteous wants, and abilities to produce to more. This principle can be seen in the parable of the talents, and also in the phrase that to whom much is given, much is required.
The church in this dispensation attempted the higher law of the tithe, but were unfaithful to it, and so the Lord established the lesser law of the tithe, to support the work of building up the kingdom of God on the earth.
One day the church hopes to re-establish this law in order to establish the ideal of Zion. that day, in my belief, will not come until technology has sufficiently improved to allow the labors of men to be done more conveniently and allows for them to have their needs provided for. Then it will be true of what the old testament prophets have said about the re-established Zion, that it will truly be an inheritance given by the grace of God. I believe, even at this time the Lord is quickening the understanding of righteous men to push forward technology that are not interested in making money, or fame, but in doing good to all men, no matter the cost. This is the spirit of the law of consecration.
Until the church as a people sanctify themselves to live up to this, to always be their brother’s keeper, then the Lord will require the lesser law of the tithe, to prepare his people.
So in answer, we do not keep it because of the law of Moses, we keep it because it is the revealed law of the Lord, and the promises of its fulfillment and blessings can be found in the experience of the ancient old testament prophets.
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:24 pm
excuse me
“The church in this dispensation attempted the higher law of the tithe, but were unfaithful to it, and so the Lord established the lesser law of the tithe, to support the work of building up the kingdom of God on the earth.”
Should read,
“…higher law of consecration…
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:26 pm
“in my belief”
should read
“in my opinion”
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:37 pm
As I may not always be on this forum, if any would like to keep in contact with me, or see other things I have written. I do a lot of writing on my facebook page.
I’m mormon, return missionary, iraq war vet, and currently an mechanical engineering student.
My email is Michael.J.Pierce@gmail.com
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:45 pm
You know what would be a great list? Things that Mormons believe (Culture) that the church doesn’t teach.
kind of like a CULTURE VS RELIGION type thing. being 24 and in a congregation full of single adults that mostly don’t know what they are talking about is extremely frustrating. lol. I’m sorry to anyone who has ever been confused by someone that ha professed faith and a testimony, but have not be faithful to either.
We all have had our experience with even some of the best members of different faiths not living up to the standard of what they believe.
Everyone here have been great in discussing this list. And I apologize on behalf of those LDS members that I see have made personal attacks on any of you. Such is not our way, well… supposed to be, but we are working on it.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:21 am
Morning, i appreciate all your replys in explaining the issue of tithing i am a christain and i dont think mormons are weird at all its encouraging how they do the preaching work as i do to, but its good to preach the truth from the Bible so i believe many things that you believe from the bible but none of you can show me from gods word THE BIBLE where is says that we as christains today should follow the commandment of tithing. And if you say its in the book of mormon cant you back it up in the bible because having the book of mormon is another issue revelation 22 vs 17 quotes ‘i am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll if anyone makes an addition to these things God will add him the plagues that are writen in this scroll’. Im not having a dig at your beliefs but im still trying to understand them. have a good day
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:23 am
sorry its revelation 22 vs 18
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:26 am
Very familiar with that scripture
Which can be answered by understanding the chronology of when the writings of John occurred.
The testimony of John and his letters were all written after the book of revelations. Would john be writing in spite of his own warning?
No, because that prophetic warning was directly given in reference to specifically the book of revelations. The canonization of the literature found in the bible and its order was not created until after 300 ad. John’s last known whereabouts dated him to somewhere around 100 ad. These facts are known to bible scholars of any faith, even secular scholars that have only interests in historical facts.
I believe the bible to be the word of God so long as it is translated correctly. Just because someone makes there own “translation” of it and slaps “bible” on the cover doesn’t mean I should automatically have blind faith in it. As any principle of the gospel can be proven, so we too can prove the bible, to see if it matches up to what the spirit reveals. As Peter says in 2 Peter 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”
However, many have tried to privately interrupt Revelation 22:18 to mean that there can never ever be any more revealed literature from God to man. However we read in the bible that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If he has spoken to man from the time of Adam to the time of Christ, when Peter James and John bore witness to the transfiguration of Christ and heard the voice of the Father say, “This is my beloved son, hear ye him” (see Mark 9:2-9) if he continued then, why would he not reveal himself to his servants, the prophets? (see Eph. 3:5 and Amos 3:7)
Understanding this principle is it too hard to believe that the reformation of Christianity during the late 1700’s and early 1800’s lead to a foundation to allow the Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, when all things will be revealed once again in preparation to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It was spoken by Peter as a time of a restitution of all things (Acts 3:21).
The bible is very clear that the Lord’s words will never cease and that many will revile against truth when it is presented to them.
The Book of Mormon also offers this principle to test it, whether it be from God or not. (Alma 32:28) “Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.”
One prophet in the Book of Mormon named Nephi(nee-f-eye) said this, “I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell… I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.” (2 Nephi 33:6,9,10)
Maybe “dig” has a negative feel to it, but I welcome you to dig all you like. It reminds me of treasure hunting where you need to dig for buried treasure. Though many communities try to look down on the Mormon faith, many have not taken the time themselves to understand it. While there are very evil men out there who have found that they can make a living printing anti-mormon literature and this has turned many off to the idea of asking an informed mormon what he/ she believes.
One of my favorite iterations of the Lord in modern day scripture as revealed in the Doctrine and Covenants said this, “Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth bideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.
And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.” (D&C 88:63 – 68)
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:59 am
Britishlad,
Oh but in answer to your tithing question. I believe the law of tithe was reintroduced to the church in the last days for the Lord’s work. I don’t think all christian churches should tithe. What would be the point to it? The LDS church makes their tithing use known and have auditors to be sure it is being used correctly. We regard that money as sacred and belonging to the Lord for his work. So this money is used in the church’s missionary programs, church building maintenance, publications etc. getting people to tithe doesn’t mean the prophet can get a Ferrari.
Its an efficient system for maintaining the church, and other non-mormon, congregations have modeled their collections after our law of the tithe because it works. there is a principle of truth that can be followed, but it is a commandment to the Church to pay a full honest tithe. If you are not a member of the mormon church, I wouldn’t worry about tithing.
September 24th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
But you could say tithing is a tradition just because it was used before us doesnt mean we have to use it to, we are urged in the bible to be a cheerful giver,give till it hurts, so doesnt tithing limit us on giving. Its true we do need to support ones church or organisation with all its efforts. Do mormons believe in the whole bible? or is your book of mormon more important to you? just to let you know ive never belonged to your church so im not an apostate i just have a good knowledge on the bible and dont understand some of your teachings. Thanks again for your help in explaining your beliefs but i find it strange you dont quote from the bible. And still cant understand the how you can add on a book to the bible surely thats changing the word of God.
September 24th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Britishlad,
Amos, 2 Peter, Malachi, Romans, and 2 Thessalonians are books from the bible. So I have quoted the Holy Bible, if you have read my posts…
I didn’t say it was tradition. I said it was commandment given to Church.
I don’t think you have to use it at all. Other churches can fund themselves with bingo for all I care.
Tithing prepares one to give up other things, not just temporal currency, so no it doesn’t interfere with giving as the church is also one of the biggest humanitarian societies in the world. Rivaling that of even the Red Cross. LDS presence during disasters like Hurricane Katrina aftermath has always been significant. Its a mindset, that we are willing to give of our time, talents, and interests in order to do God’s work, whether that is proclaiming the gospel, feedings the hungry, clothing the poor, strengthening the feeble minded. As Paul would agree.
Mormons believe that the bible is the word of God so long as it is translated correctly. As I have written at length about previously above.
What has changed? Is the message not the same? It is the same, however, having more of GOD’S WORDS allows us to better understand what we already know. The more you seek, the more you find. We ask for more of his words and he give to us liberally. (see James 1:5, Matthew 21:22, Amos 3:7, James 4:8, Hebrew 13:8)
if anything, many have tried to change God by saying that his words have stopped. That he can speak no more. That we are limited by only that which is written.
That’s at the heart of the Mormon belief, is that God’s words never end, that he lives today! That he is the same yesterday, today, and forever and that he will not leave us in darkness if we would repent, and call on his name. Then we will give to us those promptings necessary to spring us to action, to do good, follow his example, so that we can be like him and live according to his word. Its his grace, because he does not have to strengthen us or teach us, but he does and through him we can overcome sin. Which means we have to stop sinning, when we do we are forgiven, for he has changed our hearts. (see John 8:11)
read through the bible scriptures I have given, read through my words, read through the book of mormon and see for yourself if it doesn’t teach of the mercy of Jesus Christ and his role are the Creator, Savior, and Redeemer of all mankind. Then Pray and ask God, in the name of Christ, if you are truly desirous to know, and will follow those promptings with real intent, then the truth will be made manifested to you by the power of the Holy Ghost.
September 24th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
One thing ive realised that in the book of mormon Ether4:12 it states Jesus Christ saying “i am father”. When the bible says that God is father and Jesus is his son. So the book of mormon doesnt go in harmony with the bible? Throughout his ministry Jesus Christ proclaimed himself, not as God, but as the Son of God. He said nothing about being part of a triune God and neither did the Bible writers. Instead of claiming to be equal with his Father, he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28)
September 24th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
I forgot to mention, i agree alot with the scriptures above about seeking and puting God first in our lives, and we get guided today by holyspirit which help us to understand the scriptures. And back to the point about tithing its true we should have the same attitude of giving because it is important to give to help preaching and disaters etc, but is it true you still have to give 10% of your wages in the mormon church? if thats true your still doing the same as the isralites when theres no need, why cant you descretly put 10% of wages into a box for collection if you feel you should use the principle.
September 24th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
britishlad,
now you are just getting, silly. I’ve explained the tithe in detail. How it is not because of the law of moses that we practice it, so refer to my previous answers on that one.
As far as Christ declaring that he is the father, in that instance. Is not referring to himself as Our Heavenly Father, but as his own role as a Father to us all.
As the bible is very clear that through Christ we can be spiritually reborn. In this sense he is a Father to us. Also, the fact that our heavenly Father created the heavens and the earth through Jesus Christ, making Jesus Christ the Father of the heavens and the earth since it was he that made them.
So he is the Son of God, as well as a Father to us.
Interesting that you would make this argument, considering that most believe that the Father and the Son are the same being. Its usually a unique teaching of the Mormon Chruch to view God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as three distinct beings, all one in purpose.
Tell me britishlad, of what faith do you represent? So I can answer your questions more fully.
September 24th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (PHILIPPIANS 2:6 Paul said, in speaking about the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.)
September 24th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Another one to think about…
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne” Revelation 3:21
And this one…
“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” Romans 8:16-17
If you understand these scriptures then some of the Mormon beliefs don’t seem so bizarre since they are taught in the Bible.
September 26th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
i have no clue how i got reading about this but am glad i did.. ask yourself this how does someone at the age of 14 translate plates into the book of mormon.. either he is a good story teller or he is truly getting help from god
September 28th, 2008 at 5:27 am
its because satan misleads the nations thats why someone at 14 can do that
September 28th, 2008 at 7:47 am
awww come on Britishlad. I hope you don’t really mean that.
If you were to truly study and pray about the Book of Mormon with and open mind and heart and not a skeptical sinical eye you would know for yourself that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. He translated the gold plates by the power of God and was the instrument used to restore the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ back on the earth today. He is not what you and so many others falsely believe. No matter what anyone tries to say to disprove the church of Jesus Christ, you can’t. It is the church of Jesus Christ. Trying to convince me that this church is false is like trying to convince me the world is flat. Some things are just true no matter what anyone else says. I’ve had a witness from God that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ back on the earth today. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet of God who knelt in a grove of trees and prayed with real intent to know which church to join and then was visited by God and His Son Jesus Christ and the beautiful restoration began.
You cannot and will not disprove that. While you may not believe the things I say, that is ok. You may have a million things you want to re-buttle and try to convince me otherwise I would say please don’t waste your time. I am converted in my heart that this is the true and living church of God along with millions of others in this world. I love this Gospel. It has brought me joy and happiness that I never knew existed.
I will never try to force my beliefs on others but I will stand for what I know to be true.
Hope you have an enjoyable Sunday.
September 28th, 2008 at 9:01 am
First of all.
Joseph Smith received a Vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ first at the age of 14 (1823). He recounts as follows:
“I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”
He did not begin the work of translation until he was 18, when in 1827 he received the plates.
Ashlee,
Commendable testimony, however seek to make your testimony based on something other than stubborness. And if it is not based on stubborness, try not to use wording that makes it sound like it.
Britishlad,
You took time to respond to someone else’s comment… but sadly didn’t answer my question concerning what faith you were.
In response to your statement I have to say, that you are ill informed of the workings of Satan here in the last days, even though they are very clear even in the bible.
Do you not know that Satan does not convince a man to pray? He teaches them that they must not pray to the Father. While we mormons, some mature in the faith and some still growing, have told you that you must pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ in order to receive a spiritual answer for yourself.
You deny the workings of the Spirit and rest yourself on pride. Tell me, what spirit is that? Is that the spirit of God, or the Devil that has hold of your heart that tells you to not pray and fight against that which you do not understand?
Consider these words from Nephi in the Book of Mormon:
“And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.” 2 Nephi 33:10 – 11
Though I can see how you could be confused. If in your church, you are taught hateful things about Mormons by someone who has a financial stake in their congregation. By someone that has told you to rely on the philsophies of men mingled with scriptures, instead of using the whole of the scriptures.
Challenge my words BritishLad, have the prophets of the Bible Erred that I have quoted? Where are your answers to my teaching? Can you deny them with a clear conscience before God? Or will you continue to kick against the pricks? If you cannot see error in my words, or in otherwords, are unable to point true error out using the scriptures, then how do you justify your continued attack when you have not so much as mentioned what faith you belong to?
Or are you afraid that I may know more about the history of your church than you know about mine? That I may know the circumstances your faith began? That I may in my possession now have the quotes of your religious founders that made no claim at the authority of God, but recognize that it must exsist? All of the reformers have quotes that speak of a need of a restoration of the Gospel in its Fullness, including some of our Founding Fathers.
Have you sought knowledge before God, or have you continued to dwell willfully in darkness? The spirit is clear, ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you. Have you asked? Have you knocked? Or have you told yourself that you have enough and need no more? It is an unwise servant having a talent to bury it in the ground, when the season is come and the master returns, he will take even that which you have, but to him that receives with gladness and seeks to multiply his talents will the master grant an inhertiance in his kingdom.
Judge all you want, but with that same judgment you too shall be judged, that by the same reasoning and the same philosophy how you judge others you too will be judged. Wouldn’t that be fair? And can you imagine yourself in that great day of judgment to lie to God and say that your works have been works of righteousness upon the earth?
No you cannot. Have you not read? You will be judged according to your works whether you are good or whether you are evil. Its good that you believe in Christ, but the devils know too, and they tremble. Belief in Christ does not win you automatic salvation. Anyone that teaches this false doctine is a child of the devil, and anyone that believes it have not read the scriptures, or have not understood them. Do you think that you can enter the Kingdom of God without keeping the commandments of the Son? Do you suppose to keep only some of his words? Or will you believe those that wrestle the scriptures and believe them that say that a little sin will be justified?
I say to you that not one ounce of sin will be justified. Only through Christ can you be cleansed of your sins. Meaning! That through his Grace you may be strengthened that you SIN NO MORE. The scriptures are clear that this is the condition of entering his kingdom. Jesus Christ is the way, the turth, and the life. You must learn to walk in his footsteps or you cannot be saved. But you choose to live a life of sin you show that you love the world more than he. You cannot serve God and Mammon.
So how many bible quotes do you think are in that statement? A lot. How about you read the scriptures and find them, because you are not even trying to seek for youself and gain understanding.
September 28th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
You know after reading that I can definitely see how it could come off as stubborness and for that I am sorry. I did not mean it to come off that way at all. Maybe I should have left out my line that said “You may have a million things you want to re-buttle and try to convince me otherwise I would say please don’t waste your time.”
I guess sometimes I get weary of others bashing eachothers beliefs. Not just in the mormon church but in other churches as well. It’s like nails on a chalk board when I hear someone say something disrespectful about another person’s beliefs whether it be Catholicism, Buddhism, etc. etc…
So I guess by saying that I felt like I needed to put my guard but I didn’t because I’ve been impressed with the level of respect that has taken place on this message board.
So again, my apologies! If you want to re-buttle go ahead, it helps me to want to study more and learn more. Besides, I like hearing others views:)
Happy Sunday everyone!!
September 28th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
the more you study the more the spirit can confirm. Its one thing to have facts in your head, and another to have them apart of who you are. In that spirit seek the words of eternal life. Then teach diligently to answer men according to their understanding. As you seek this, the Lord will bless you.
Try D&C 88:63-68, 78-79
October 21st, 2008 at 1:08 pm
What about the whole “Burnt Angels” fallen to earth from heaven?
October 23rd, 2008 at 10:45 pm
People, I’m sorry if it offends you, but I’m Mormon, and I think you’re all crazy for thinking we’re insane. Yes, there are soem pretty odd things, but the ones listed here are NOT those things! And there was a comment about polygamy. I’m sorry, but everyone does this! LDS, not FLDS. Some men in pioneer days were told to have multiple wives, but by God. It was abandoned when God didn’t want it. And those men loved every one of their wives nad children, were faithful to all, and supproted them all. They didn’t get married to get laid. Idiots! And the coffee/tea/drugs/alcohol thing:
WE ARE EFFING TOLD IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL THAT ACOHOL AND DRUG RUIN OUR LIVES. NO EFFING DUH.
Coffe and tea: People, I don’t care what teh off-their-rocker scientists say, but tea and coffee aren’t good for you! The hot drinks are harmful, and even herbal tea is not good, TEA IS TEA.
And for those who would think we HAVE to do these things: We have a wonderful thing that some religions don’t have, and it’s free agency! We have choices; to do the right, or the wrong. CTR: Choose The Right. But we can choose. Yes, it is true that we cannot be forgiven for denying the Holy Spirit and murder, but otehrwise it is our life to live!
October 24th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Imagine,
You’re comments are inappropriate and rude, they do not teach with any sort of charity or the light of Christ.
Doug,
please explain and I will help resolve your concern.
Burnt Angels? Doesn’t sound like any LDS doctrine I know. And trust me I know a lot
October 24th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Imagine,
Not only are your comments rude, but also contain several false doctrines. Check yourself and learn the scriptures before you open your mouth to others.
October 24th, 2008 at 8:24 am
Imagine,
I am also Mormon and I can see what you are trying to say. Defending something you believe in is not onlyy necessary but very admirable. But, one thing that is crucial if you are wanting to get your point across and create peace with all those around you is to do so with a calm and Christ like manner like MJ mentioned. I’m guessing you watched General Conference this October?? I would suggest you re-read Elder Robert D Hales talk…here is the link http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-947-22,00.html
Hope this helps!
November 10th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
It’s sad how narrow minded so many of these posts are. Why would someone get online and under the coat of the “net” start claiming knowledge about something they know nothing about and degrading anothers personal and deeply held religious beliefs. I am a born and raised mormon and wonder where many of you have gotten your information and who you have known. As a Mormon I admit I have have peculiar beliefs, but they are mine and I’m not trying to force them on anyone. I don’t believe these things because I have been brain washed. They are things I believe in for myself. I did go on a mission and if someone was interested we taught them about our beliefs, if not we wished them well and moved along. I personally don’t know any other member of my church who pushes their beliefs on everyone they meet. I’m basically just trying to be a good person to everyone I meet and I believe my religion is helping me do so. I also believe that God will ultimately judge people for living what they believe, so I will continue to live my religion and wish you all well in living however you believe.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
I am not even close to being wierd and i am a mormon. How will any other religion liked it if we started doing to what you are doing to us? At least we don’t make fun of other religions.
November 15th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Anyone ever see Tombstone (1993 version) Sidetrack for another wierd belief for your list — call it a week moment because Mormons aren’t supposed to watch Rated R movies because of the lack of positive spiritual influence the majority of them contain, but my favorite quote is “I’m your huckleberry…why that’s just my game.”
I just found this site and there are too many weird posts to go through to comment on…but I love this game. For every 10 things you tell me are wierd about my beliefs I could find 20 about yours. Should we start with the South Park Worshippers? Because they must be spiritually in tune for sure. How about the person who said he got dumber by reading the Book of Mormon. I’d love to hear the list of books you read to make you smarter. “Star Wars” maybe…thats next generation stuff so I would understand. You don’t by chance dress up as Darth Vader and go to those conventions do you?
How about the comment of not liking organized religion and prefering to worship your own way. Hey I’m all for this. I could pay myself a 10% tithing. God would forgive me no matter what I did. I could spend my time watching old reruns of “I Love Lucy” rather than going to church on Sunday and sleeping during sunday school anyway, etc.
Okay, really…I love you all…wish you the best in life, but in the end I only want to obtain the blessings of heaven as taught by the Mormons…every other possible explanation for afterlife opportunities sounds boring…(Singing and bowing to a deity we call Father, but looks nothing like us, all day long every day – of course the virgins that the Muslims believe they’ll get sounds intriguing, but maybe that’s our old polygamous beliefs coming out in me…but I’m not really into blowing myself up for that one so I’ll settle for the Mormon belief of being able to inherit all the Father has and helping him in his work…namely creationism and bringing salvation to others, and if it is wrong as many of you believe then I haven’t lost anything. I still live all the “normal/non-wierd” Christian commandments..so I’ll be stuck their right along with you bowing and singing…though I’ll warn you ahead of time that I am a horrible singer.
GLTA
November 15th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Sorry, quick clarification…I said Muslim, but I did not mean to identify the virgins belief as being Muslim in general, but as a belief often held by fanatic Muslims who wage Jihad (Holy War) on Infidels (All Non-Muslims) usually in the form of terrorist acts. I am an Arabic linguist and have many Muslim acquaintances and am familiar with the better part of their teachings as are practiced on a daily basis.
November 16th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Jimbo: It’s admirable the faith you have in your religion. I’m happy to see that you have your beliefs for your own reasons rather than someone who believes on others’ words, or worse yet, is forced to believe. Having been born into an LDS household and growing up LDS I cannot say I hold the same faith for myself, but then again, it’s my choice.
Huckleberry: Thanks for your input. You’re obviously one with a strong faith, and you raise a good point. Even though Mormons do practice some weird things, they also follow all the standard Christian beliefs. I suppose I won’t be one of the ones singing with you, but then again, I wouldn’t want to get too close to your voice from the sound of it, so perhaps that’s a good thing
November 16th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I think a lot has changed, well at least in california, in how other christian churches view the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, or mormons.
We teamed up with other churches to head what we believed was the right thing to do in supporting the passing of prop 8. The principles behind tithing of giving of our substance willingly was recognized as it was the members that contributed a lot of the campaign money. The church itself did not use its funds like many opponents of prop 8 claim.
We stood with the Catholics, the protestants, and the fraternal orders associated with those different faiths on this issue. We stood together as Christians.
What we do may seem strange to many, but it is by small and simple things do great things come to pass.
Even as recently both mormons and the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic fraternal order) both came under direct terrorist threat when white powder was sent to Salt Lake and Los Angeles temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the New York HQ for the Knights of Columbus.
needless to say, that if ever the nation turns from God completely, the Mormons will stay true and will defend all those that believe in the Holy One of Israel, Jesus Christ.
November 16th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
When I was Mormon, I didn’t think my beliefs were weird either. It wasn’t until after I left that church and gained some perspective, that many of its teachings seemed, for lack of a more polite term, ridiculous. To wit:
I’ve raised 4 teenage boys. God would have to be insane to trust the restoration of His/Her gospel to a 14-year-old.
The whole “mark of Cain” reasoning is simply insulting, even to a whitey like me.
I don’t think it can be emphasized enough, like Mystern brought up, that LDS doctrine includes the practice of polygamy by the elites in heaven.
I find it hard to fathom a God who would give Mormon boys, via the “priesthood”, more power to call upon His/Her name than would be granted to me, a woman. I have a direct line to God. No priesthood holder necessary to call upon the power of heaven nor escort me through the veil.
Even you Mormons would have to admit that lining up to do baptisms and sealings for the dead is strange, to say nothing of fig leaves, aprons, secret names and handshakes.
My son, who lost his hearing at 20 months old, did not choose to be deaf in the pre existance, like so many Mormons believe. If it is so, he wants a do-over.
Not an all inclusive list, but you get my point. Whatever happened to not being offended at being thought of as weird, because, after all, you have the “fullness” that we “others” don’t.
November 16th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
MJ said, “We stood with the Catholics, the protestants, and the fraternal orders associated with those different faiths on this issue. We stood together as Christians.”
Yes, you stood together for hate. You want to deny people the same right that you have to marry. Mustn’t question what the prophet directs. Congrats.
But this will be a short victory, as the times are changing. I know, I know. God’s laws are eternal. But meanwhile, earthly laws will, I believe, protect marriage as a civil right, no matter what gender your spouse is.
Your church is on the wrong side of history again, but keep giving your dollars to the cause because otherwise you might have to help the hungry, infirm, or homeless.
November 16th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Yeah, can’t imagine much good coming from a 14 year old…although there was that time where someone who was 12 was able to intelligently sit in the midst of Doctors and astound the people who witnessed his understanding. I guess he was just a special case though.
I love talking to ex-Mormons the most, they always become smarter when they leave the church. Glad to see that you are at least politically correct and not trying to offend anyone with your gender neutral reference to God. John said life eternal is knowing the only true God…I think that when I pray I would get more brownie points if I called him Father or her Mother depending on the right gender, or maybe even It if it is more appropriate. Can you use your direct line and contact him/her/it up again just to ask him/her/it if he/she/it has a gender. Hey, while your talking to him/her/it, could you ask for me what he/she/it thinks of trying to vote to add fornication and adultery, in addition to gay marriage, as a legal amendment to the constitution, and might as well throw the polygamy question in just for giggles too–afterall, were all consenting adults. I would feel much better about giving in to those urges that I feel I was born with, being promiscuous that is, and it would help a great deal to at least have the law of the land recognize its validity even if God doesn’t. Just don’t tell my wife I suggested it!
All joking aside…hope you are able to find a solution to your sons hearing..there have been tremendous medical advances over the past 150 years. Not sure I followed your thinking the Mormons believe we choose our afflictions in the premortal life though, but oh well I skipped sunday school a lot when I was younger. You could maybe check with the Buddhists for the do over part. Good luck to you in your future endeavors all the same.
By the way…all my comments are my own — if you want to learn about Mormons go to mormons.org or lds.org, or talk to an official representative of the church.
November 17th, 2008 at 12:20 am
petpeeve,
Its funny you said we stood for hate when both the knights of Columbus and two Mormon temples were sent white powder is a anthrax hoax scare. Its interesting that you claim prop 8 was hateful, when those that are opposed to it are showing the most hate and intolerance.
So far opponents of prop 8 resemble terrorist than anything else.
You just sound angry at the church and you don’t seem to have that much gospel knowledge. Have you read the old and new testament.
Samuel the prophet in the old testament was called to be a prophet when still a child.(1 kings 3) Or Jeremiah? He was ordained a prophet before he was born. (Jeremiah 1:5) hmmm Also Jesus Christ was 12 years old when he was among the elders in the temple teaching them.
So maybe you should have brought your children up like those prophets mothers did, maybe then you could expect to trust your sons with greater responsibility.
November 17th, 2008 at 12:23 am
“help the hungry, infirm, or homeless.”
You must not have read my other posts lol.
what are you doing for the world today?
November 17th, 2008 at 10:13 am
MJ at #253 said, “So maybe you should have brought your children up like those prophets mothers did, maybe then you could expect to trust your sons with greater responsibility.”
Wow. So you’re saying I should feel bad about my parenting skills because none of my sons were preordained to be prophets? And thank goodness for that. I really like who they all turned out to be. They are good young men with good heads on their shoulders, who treat others with respect. They live by the golden rule. If we’re measuring successful parenting by how many prophets we’ve raised, how many prophets can be found among your children? Grandchildren?
No MJ, I’m not angry at the LDS church. It served a purpose in my life at one time. I don’t regret my past membership, but I have moved on, I’ve never regretted leaving, and I am happy.
And I’ll just concede right now that you probably have far more gospel knowledge than I ever had. It seems from your comments on this post, that you want us all to know how learned you are. Why, you even chastised Ashlee for her testimony when you said “Ashlee, Commendable testimony, however seek to make your testimony based on something other than stubborness. And if it is not based on stubborness, try not to use wording that makes it sound like it.” Your testimony may be more informed, but it sounds like stubbornness all the same.
Yes, I’ve read your other posts which is where I found this little gem in #241 “You’re comments are inappropriate and rude, they do not teach with any sort of charity or the light of Christ.” Sounds like someone should heed his own counsel.
November 17th, 2008 at 11:02 am
It seems you were horribly offended by the quibble about the possibility of being a bad mother.
“I’ve raised 4 teenage boys. God would have to be insane to trust the restoration of His/Her gospel to a 14-year-old.”
You were the one that called God insane for ever trusting anyone like your sons.
I refer you back to my post
“Samuel the prophet in the old testament was called to be a prophet when still a child.(1 kings 3) Or Jeremiah? He was ordained a prophet before he was born. (Jeremiah 1:5) hmmm Also Jesus Christ was 12 years old when he was among the elders in the temple teaching them.”
I don’t like ignorance. Which this original posting represents. Because I share knowledge and I chastise those that do bring themselves to be well informed you accuse me of using this as a way of somehow glorifying myself? That’s an accusation you pull out of thin air.
www providentliving org
“help the hungry, infirm, or homeless.”
what are you doing for the world today?
November 17th, 2008 at 11:03 am
that do not bring themselves to be well informed*
November 17th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I get it now. You don’t have children. It would explain a lot.
MJ, anyone reading this thread can get that you are well informed, never ignorant, almost perfect, one of God’s chosen few. But sometimes that know-it -all, I’m out to prove you wrong attitude doesn’t help your cause. I would argue that, in fact, a sweet testimony like Ashlee’s, is the honey that can attract the bees. One thing many outsiders dislike about mormons is their “only we can be right and the rest of you had better get informed and jump on board” attitude. Sometimes it comes across as arrogant, elitist, holier-than-thou. Do you see yourself yet? I thought not.
November 17th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
MJ,
It might also be helpful for you to know that using scriptures on someone like me, who does not hold them in esteem the way you do, just does not work. I think the scriptures tell some good stories with some good lessons we can use in life, but they aren’t important enough to start wars over, or keep someone out of heaven.
November 17th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I would also like to commend Mystern on his considerable use of self restraint in writing this list and in his posts here.
November 17th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Petpeeve,
If you don’t believe the scriptures then why are you Christian?
Most of the problems that face society today comes from those that refuse to become informed. Thinking that it is too hard or beyond them. Its that thinking that keeps them from knowledge. Its sad to see how many people today allow certain things to go on as if they are normal, when historically, practically, and truthfully some of the modern traditions do not sync up with what is right and true.
I will never use flattering words to attract anyone, the sweet also attracts the flies as well.
I’m not a parent, but I have parents and i know many parents and the difference can be seen between what works and what doesn’t. Many children given responsibility, real responsibility will rise to the occasion. You would never know that if you don’t trust them. We are the Lord’s children and he knows us best. 14 year old boy would be better than a stubborn old man who thinks he has learned everything.
You are only arguing out of stubbornness, you don’t support the majority of Christianity in prop 8, you don’t believe the scriptures have literal content, you make claims such as saying that the church does not help the sick, naked, or hungry when in fact it does.
So whatever excuse you would like to give for the way you lead your life is all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day I really wonder how you justify it to yourself.
November 17th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
MJ,
I never said I was Christian. I said I used to be Mormon, and now I’m not, haven’t been for many years. Technically, I’m still a member of record, although, in light of the Mormon church’s choreographed and funded (individual donors, of course) involvement in Prop 8, I think now might be the right time for me to have my name removed from the membership roles. No, I’m not gay. I just think its wrong to marginalize a whole class of people by denying them the same basic civil right to marry that you and I have.
You really helped to make my point that many Mormons have a holier-than-thou attitude when you questioned how I can justify the way I live my life at the end of the day, especially when you know so little about me.
Regarding Ashlee’s “sweet testimony”, I meant to say sincere, authentic testimony, but somehow I think you knew that.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:01 am
I’m more than sure you are not familiar with the legal issues that were involved in prop 8. As you know the church very rarely gets involved politically and this is the first I have ever heard the church outright support a specific measure and for good reason.
If you knew California law, same sex civil unions ALREADY have the exact same legal rights as traditional marriage. In fact, when prop 8 passed no civil union was affected, just an argument over a word. I word we hold sacred, but a word that holds many legal consequences that if defined any other way than between a man and a woman it would have created many legal loop holes that would have created a number of lawsuits, just like it did in Massachusetts. Again, if you were informed on the issue instead of listening to propaganda you would have known that.
Just because I wonder by what logic you justify your life, doesn’t make me holier than thou. You through that slogan around as if you were using it correctly. Again if you were well informed you wouldn’t have used it incorrectly. So thank you for proving my point more than once.
No, I am not psychic, you cannot expect me to magically know what you mean. But I would question how you would guage Ashlee’s sincerity or authenticity. Through the internet she could be an 57 year old man named bill, who gets a kick out of participating in random discussions. In all truthfulness and fairness, you have no idea if what she stated is real. So it brings again to mind your reasoning for the way you deduce information around you. Do you connect her inarticulate response directly to sincerity and authenticity? if so, that could explain your own hostile stance against the very informed responses I have presented to you.
So the next question is this:
Will you continue to kick against the pricks? to persecute the saints? and fight against God?
If you are not Christian why has your faith entirely disappeared? Is it a fear of seeking truth causing you to be informed and thus accountable? But if so, knowing that there is more knowledge to gain would in fact make you accountable in at least trying to obtain it.
I know a number of people who have left the church, I’m still friends with many of them, but not one of them has ever denied the divinity of Jesus Christ.
If you do not believe in Christ, it is probably a good thing you get your named removed. Because only those that make a promise to follow Christ and put their trust in him can endure to the end.
So, what part of your life was so more important that you would give up on the Holy One of Israel, because he will never give up on you.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:05 am
MJ: I’ve been showing restraint in jumping into the theological debate you and petpeeve are having, but I have to say that it does not help your cause in the slightest to personally attack petpeeve. Calling her a coward is not the way to get your point across. What’s more, calling only informed testimonies valid is just plain ignorant. If that were the case, you would be calling not only every new converts’ testimony invalid, but also calling the testimony of the majority people who might not have the same grasp on the gospel (or the same vocabulary as you) to be invalid. (gods that was a convoluted sentence)
You say that of all the former Mormons you know, not one has ever denied the divinity of good ol’ JC. I would ask if you’ve ever personally asked each of them if they still believe such. It’s generally a sore subject for ex Mormons so I’d be careful. And if indeed all of them still believe that Mr. Jesus was the son of The Alpha and Omega, I would say you have a small and rare sampling of ex Mormon friends.
I’d like to point out that you are entirely correct in saying that each person who knows there is more knowledge to be had is accountable for obtaining that knowledge. I’d also like to point out (as you already know) that you are accountable for the knowledge you have.
So essentially, I’m gonna be fine because I don’t know that Buddy Christ was the son of the Holiest of Holy. And petpeeve is gonna be fine as well, cause she doesn’t know that Big J walked on water. And you’ve got the short end of the stick, cause you apparently do know these things, so you’re going to be held accountable.
Unless you’re confusing beliefs with knowledge?
Listen. It’s great that you have a strong testimony. I’m happy for you. It’s great that you’re so willing to defend your beliefs. But having grown up in the church I know about a little something called “The Spirit.” And it’s something your posts do not inspire. And I think if you go back and look at how you were feeling when you wrote those posts you’ll see that they did not come from a place of love. The LDS gospel teaches that we (meaning you) should uphold our (your) faith through reason, and spirit. Your posts do not teach, they do not foster understanding. Instead of attacking those who attack you, why don’t you try explaining why you believe as you do. And if you feel you don’t have to, then I think you had better take a look at why that is. If you can’t answer why you have your faith, then I’d suggest looking at that as well. Because faith without reason is just . . . empty.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:07 am
petpeeve: Sorry I just realized that I assumed you were a woman. If you’re a man I apologize.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Never did I call her a coward.
This conversion is soon coming to a close since you both don’t seem to have a faith in Jesus Christ, then my target audience, Christians, will understand the difference between you and me. I have little to no remorse for what I’ve said to either of you, I have raised many valid points, but you both seem to cling only to the weakest of them while brushing over the rest. I have taught, if you have read them, it means you do not understand, and you don’t understand because you are not trying to.
Yes I do talk to my ex-mormon friends very openly about religion. It may be a sensitive subject to you, but I would not say it is rare. Most that do leave the church JOIN other churches, not become agnostic.
You also use very disrespectful words referring to someone, even if you do not have a complete knowledge, who could be the Son of God. I would point out that its your lackadaisical approach to Him that keeps you from obtaining any level of knowledge.
Because I would also point out that you can have knowledge about a subject without having a complete knowledge. Just like I can know basic arithmetic, but not know Calculus. If If I were an engineer, it would be my duty to learn that higher knowledge. Like wise, if you care for spiritual things and you call yourself a seeker of truth, it would behoove you to seek the truth about the divinity of Jesus Christ.
He laid down his life for you so that he can save you both body and spirit. As everyone will temporally die, through the power (or knowledge) that Christ has he made it possible that ALL will rise from the dead in a perfect immortal body, never to physically die again. That promise is giving to everyone unconditionally. The only death that we must concern ourselves with is spiritual death, which is a separation from God. Romans 8:16 records that we are the children of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we suffer (in other words follow his example) with him, so we too can have the blessing of living in the presence of a Just, Kind, and infinitely loving Father in Heaven.
You speak so disrespectfully of him, but these are his words, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man layeth down his life for his friends.” You considered you his friends, search his teachings and the prophets and pray and ask God, even if you don’t believe that address Heavenly Father if he is even there. If you are sincere and you ask in faith he will answer you.
Also keeping in mind of HOW THE SPIRIT WORKS. That it is also the responsibility of the recipient of spiritual things to be seeking truth in the spirit of truth. If you have no desire to seek the truth, the spirit will not inspire you to do so. You cannot have the spirit as your companion if you do not act on the information it has previously given you. You say you grew up in the church, so I would ask, why are you not in it now? There will lie the answer to why you do not feel inspired by my words I have spoken.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
MP: Let me first apologize for my confusion in what you said to petpeeve. I assumed from my knowledge of the word “fear” (please note your statement: “Is it a fear of seeking truth causing you to be informed and thus accountable”), that you meant cowardly. Please accept my apologies for this assumption of the commonly used definition of the word coward.
In response to me attacking the weakest points of your arguments, I would just like to point out 2 things. First and foremost, as the affirmative in this debate, you have the burden of proof. I don’t need to address any of your points except the ones I choose to. If a single of your points is invalid, your entire argument crumbles. Secondly, you find yourself guilty of the same. You yourself fail to address the point of my entire comment, instead focusing on my lack of respect for (in your words) “who could be the Son of God.”
You did not answer my question as to why you believe the way you do. My dismissive nature toward Jesus was for the sole purpose of garnering your attention. Apparently I did too good of a job, because that’s all you seem to have focused on. You attack me for my nature and disregard for things you respect without bothering to defend you reasons. I have my reasons for my lack of faith, and I’ll get to those shortly.
In regards to your generally dismissive nature toward non-Christians (saying, “my target audience, Christians”), I would simply like to say that you’re not helping your case. You’re still just telling us we’re wrong, instead of helping us understand why. I never said you needed to have a complete knowledge. After all, one of the most quoted scriptures from the book of Alma: “faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.” I’m acting under the assumption that you believe this, and never expected you to have a perfect knowledge. I simply was referring to the fact that you said that everyone will be held accountable for their knowledge. I don’t know, and I simply wanted to know how you do.
In regard to how the spirit works, I just want to tell you I’m coming from a place of an open mind. I’m more than willing to learn, but your posts leave me disheartened instead of uplifted. I’ve never once attacked your faith, instead only saying that I respect you for your faith. I’ve never once said that your beliefs are invalid, only said that I did not agree. If I have either attacked your faith, or stated that your beliefs are invalid, or even given that impression, please accept my deepest apologies. Such was never my intention. I do however, have to say how disappointed I am that you seem bent on attacking my (among others’) lack of faith. I’m very disappointed that you automatically assume I’m unwilling to learn.
As far as my personal reasons for my lack of belief, I’m going to share my story. I was born and raised in the church, and I believed. I’d even go so far as to say that I knew the truth of His word. But a few years ago, as my knowledge in the gospel grew, I became disheartened to learn that our Infinitely Forgiving God Almighty, is in fact the most unforgiving being in the universe. As I say this, I’d like you to look at number 2 on this list. God will forgive any sin you have while here on this Earth (save two). However, a basic tenant of LDS faith is that each and every person will end up in the Kingdom of Glory where they will be most comfortable. Thus right now, I’d end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. My issue arises from the fact that LDS theology states that our basic nature as humans does not change after we die (or are resurrected), and one of the basic of human natures is that how e feel changes. Thus, after the final judgment, no matter how much time has passed, no matter how much remorse you feel for your sins, no matter how much you want to repent, once you’re in a lower kingdom, you’re stuck there, for eternity. I could also say this of other Christian religions regarding Hell and the final judgment. It’s not that I’m not open to the idea of a God, it’s that I refuse to believe that the Creator of the universe would be so unforgiving.
So that leaves me in limbo right now. I don’t believe in any religious ideal of God, but I’m not closed to the idea of it. I’m simply in a place where I don’t know.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Sorry for the Italics, I must’ve forgotten to close a tag in there somewhere.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
I addressed every point you made, and why I believe what I do. You further prove my point that you are only choosing to understand what you want to.
everyone is afraid of something, so no I wouldn’t go around calling everyone cowards. So Apology accepted as I didn’t call her coward, and fear does not commonly make someone a coward.
When I say weak, I didn’t say invalid. I merely remark on that you argue syntax rather than actual concern you have for a point.
Saying my target audience is Christians doesn’t make me dismissive towards you. What I was saying is that you are actually helping me make my points to the ones I am trying to address, because I have commonality with them in which to share and express ideas. This list is geared toward fellow Christians, if it were not, then it would have listed a belief in Christ as bizarre, as most outside Christianity find it strange to believe in someone who lived 2000 years ago.
You say you are arguing in the affirmative. The affirmative of what? The mormons being bizarre? Every culture seems bizarre to anyone outside of it. Or are you arguing in the affirmative that being more informed somehow makes one’s testimony less valid than another. Or are you arguing in the affirmative that you find my approach slightly rude? if so then that is a matter of perspective and what you think of as internet courtesy. I would add that if you find my approach rude then maybe you are adding moods, intonations, and mannerisms that I have not expressed.
As far as the reason for you no longer being in church I hope I can resolve your concern and get you on a path to being active again. Starters, you already admitted to a lack of knowledge, so denying the Holy Ghost is not what you are talking about. if so, I urge you to study this principle for this refers to those that obtain a perfect knowledge of the spirit and having received a perfect knowledge deny it. Basically you know the Father and his plan and purposes and you say to his face that you reject him and all he stands for. If you are talking about Murder, then I will teach you this principle. That murder, the unforgivable type, is not the same as conventional taking of another’s life. There is punishment for such, by after that punishment they will inherit glory.
D&C 76:
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
Unless you put yourself in the same shoes of those that caused Christ to be crucified, you will be able to find forgiveness and receive glory. To remain unforgiven is to be placed in position like Satan, to go through eternity with NO glory and miserable forever.
I would also address the idea you have of eternal progression, as you think of the kingdoms as if they have some sort of physical barrier between them. There is no barrier. Its about what kind of person you are and the potential in which you will rise. The difference in these kingdoms has to do with our capabilities and responsibilities. How do you plan on growing and showing you have repent when there is no opposition to prove yourself with? This is the only time we have to face opposition. This is the time to overcome sin, because there will be no sin to overcome in the life to come. If you do not do it now, how do you expect to do it in the future? Its fair to say a life time of habit will be with you for all eternity.
The Father is infinitely forgiving, the only reason why he seems otherwise is because many have failed to understand him.
The limbo you feel is the one you have placed yourself within your own mind. Come back to church and have joy with the saints of God.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Now I don’t feel as bad when I think I am getting a little long winded sometimes.
Mystern: I have to back up MJ on the clarification of the unforgiving God you talked about. I believe he can and will forgive us based on our obediences to the laws with which we are given. If someone murders another and the law (either religious or political) had taught that person previously that it was wrong, then I think God would be just in his limiting the reward of that person in the next life, whatever you want to believe that reward should be. Though we acknowledge it is none of our decisions to make. The more serious penalties come as in the example of King David who knew full well the plan of salvation and who received much of what he had direct from God or his Prophets and still chose to be an instrument in the death of another for the love of that man’s wife. He will pay the price of that mistake. On the other hand..and I know this is not really comparable, but if you take a young Muslim who is taught from youth to hate all Non-Muslims and that it is his duty to kill for his religion because God told him to then God will judge him based on that knowledge and whether he/she really understood what they were doing was wrong. In the end it may be those who taught the youth that will pay the price, but I don’t have the answer to that.
God is just and through the merits of his Son made a way possible that he can accomplish his goal which is to return each of us safely home to him. There is no belief more profound than that of the family relationship that exists between the Godhead and man. It is witnessed every day of my life as I raise four wonderful children to see and understand his work and to contemplate how he must feel towards us as we show the same emotions towards our own children that he has demonstrated throughout the scriptures whether it be love, anger, forgiveness, etc. He is a loving, caring Father and will bring us home no matter the cost. Very few will not return and these are the likes of Cain and Judas, etc. (in my opinion)
Just my opinions, but also not trying to get too deep into the heart of the recent arguments that have taken place.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
MJ: Please re-read my post. I stated that you had the affirmative. And in regards to what, I was simply stating that you had the burden of proof regarding the truth of beliefs. As the Author of this list, I’d like to point out that it was not geared toward any specific audience whatsoever.
Please also understand that my lack of understanding has nothing to do with my lack of trying. To say the reason for lack of understanding is always a lack of willingness to learn (”it means you do not understand, and you don’t understand because you are not trying to”), is simply ignorant. You are saying that if you want to, you can learn anything at all. This is not true.
Regarding your response to why you believe what you do, please repeat is because I cannot find it in your post.
In regards to what both you and Huckleberry have said, I would like to apologize because I seem to have not made my point clear. What I was trying to say, was not regarding the unforgivable sins. I can see how the confusion arose, and I’m very sorry for that. All I was saying, is that after the final judgment, you end up in whatever kingdom you end up in, and there is no repentance. So, if I end up in the Telestial kingdom, there is no repentance for me, I am stuck there forever. I can never obtain the highest glory of God, no matter what. No matter how much remorse I feel, no matter how much I beg, God will never forgive me enough to allow me into the Celestial kingdom. I can never have spiritual children, I can never achieve the glory of god. You are incorrect MP in saying there is no barrier between the kingdoms, and as proof I offer D&C 76: 109-112
“109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall aconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.”
Regarding other Christian religions, after the final judgment, if I end up in Hell, I can not repent at all whatsoever. I refuse to believe in such a God.
However, my faith (or lack thereof) is not the issue here. The only reason I jumped into this discussion is that I felt you were being unfair to petpeeve, and I felt you were making your posts from a place of spite, invalidating her beliefs, rather than explaining your own.
November 19th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
You may not have intended it to be geared, but it is, simply by the mechanics of the language and topics you choose. There is a science to writing and at times people have a tendency of accidentally accomplishing something they didn’t set out to do.
actually I’ve done nothing but defend my beliefs, so I’m not sure what you are saying is left for me to prove. The burden of proof rests on the Holy Ghost and You. Moroni 10:3-5.
“You are saying that if you want to, you can learn anything at all.” matter of fact that is exactly right. Here’s an old saying for you, “Whether you can or can’t, you’re right.”
Einstein, Tesla, and Thomas Edison all have quotes about the principle of the need to exercise ones mind. There is nothing that cannot be understood if you seek it. And by not trying also lends itself also to trying to find a correct way. You can try all you might to get passed a wall by walking into it repeatedly, but if you don’t try to go over, around, under or whatever, then I would say you are not trying.
D&C 76:112 makes no connection to a physical barrier. they could be standing right in front of you and you would not be able to comprehend the entirety of their being. The separator is knowledge, capability, and responsibility. If you are not capable of proving that you will be faithful to responsibilities here, what makes you think you would change in the here after? There is no opposition so how are you changing and proving yourself? its not God that keeps you from growing, it you, because one lets life go by when it’s time to change, then the night comes and you can do more work. However, you are forgiven of the Crimes you committed and do receive glory.
“The only reason I jumped into this discussion is that I felt you were being unfair to petpeeve, and I felt you were making your posts from a place of spite, invalidating her beliefs, rather than explaining your own.”
if that was your reasoning, I invite you to reread my post without adding moods, mannerisms, and intonations that you invented, because none of my post came out of spite. So far as I have corrected you own uses of words it seems you add a lot more context to phrases than that’s really there. Such as your quotation to DC 76:112, try reading it from a perspective of spiritual separation which the second death is repeatedly referred to, and everything will start making a lot more sense.
You see, if you are honest in your stance, I would venture to say that Satan has planted some incorrect interpretations of the scriptures and he cheats your soul. Lasting happiness in this life and the world to come rest in the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. I invite you to read Moroni 10 and I would emphasis the last few verses that talks about this Grace and how you do play a part in becoming qualified for it.
Huck, thanks for the supporting comment.
November 19th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Wow, MJ, petpeeve and Mystern…..quite the argument…well, more like a discussion, but still…..
November 19th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
MP: I would simply disagree with the statement regarding force of will and comprehension. Just because my step-father wants to understand math, does not mean he can. After years of trying, he still cannot complete the basic math course required to achieve his degree.
I never said there was a physical barrier to the kingdoms. I simply said that ones who are in a lower kingdom, cannot go to a higher kingdom. They cannot achieve the glory of a higher kingdom. If you don’t believe me, please ask your bishop. My contention lies in that a basic part of human nature is for their feelings to change. You cannot tell me that I won’t want to repent after 100 years in the Telestial kingdom. How about 1000 years? 1,000,000? How about 1,000,000,000,000,000? Eternity has no end my friend, and everyone changes.
I don’t particularly want to argue the finer points of LDS theology with you because it’s quite deep and complex. Suffice it to say that doctrine states specifically if you end up in a lower kingdom, you cannot achieve the glory of a higher one. Ever. Period. Many places state this, and I feel this is wrong.
Regarding my interpretations of your tone and or where you come from, I can only judge by your words, and the words of petpeeve. I’m not saying you were coming from a place of spite, simply that it seemed that way.
November 19th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
You know…faith, knowledge, beliefs aside…I always say that if you believe in God and in a post mortal existence and you end up being wrong then you’ll never know the difference when you die.
On the other hand if you don’t believe and you find yourself standing in front of the judgement seat…well, I’ll leave that to the imagination.
I’m not much of a gambler except when I buy stocks, but I think the odds of this gamble are pretty lopsided. 70 years of eat, drink, and be merry? For what?
Anyway, Mystern, why not trust that God will pass the right judgements on people, and the only people that will end up in the Telestial kingdom will be those who don’t care to repent, those who like their placement. Same for the Terrestrial..after all we are told it is like a paradise beyond anything we could percieve in comparison to this life. If you really have that type of heart, a need to repent, then why wait and take your chances. You don’t have to be a good Mormon to repent and prepare to meet God or even be a Mormon at all. Yes, at some point you (talking generally now) will have to be baptised by one with authority from God and the such, but God is not going to look on a good person from a different faith who is striving to do good with their life any different than he does a Mormon.
November 19th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
huckleberry: I suppose it simply has to do with my hope in the human race. My hope that a basic part of human nature is that we will eventually change our ways if we are wrong.
But then again the very belief in a Heaven and Hell (or in the case of LDS doctrine, the 3 Kingdoms) contradicts that hope doesn’t it?
I’m sorry, but until you can support an argument that the 3 Kingdoms is not the end (from direct Scripture), I will continue to believe it is, and as such, is unfair.
November 19th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
“but until you can support an argument that the 3 Kingdoms is not the end (from direct Scripture), I will continue to believe it is, and as such, is unfair.”
I think this is rather an unfair statement itself, because it assumes that you know all the reasons why someone show be able to progress on kingdom to another. The only reason you give is time. Which in our current perspective is linear. What if there is no more time, and that 1,000,000,000,000,000 is just like 1,000.
Revelations 10:6
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Alma 42
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
Also the lord responded to Enoch when asked concerning those that were disobedient during the time of Noah:
32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;
33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;
34 And the afire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.
35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.
36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.
37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?
We all will be held accountable for our own sins and will answer for them, but there is something to be said about who would get more blame, those that ignorantly sin or those that knowingly caused others to sin. You fear that your transgression bars you from the celestial kingdom, you may ask yourself, did you do it knowing that it was wrong, or did your upbringing (all the factors considered) really teach you correctly? the Lord has a plan for you and in the end you will understand his judgment in full and know that it is fair. Have faith that your Father in Heaven loves you enough to provide you with what you can do with the most.
November 19th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
MP: Your scripture quotes prove my point. After this “probationary” time there is no repentance. And that’s my point. Why shouldn’t there be? I believe that if human nature does not change; eventually every single person will want to repent. Yes, I’ll be held accountable for my own sins. Speaking from doctrine, I’m an evil, evil man. But I have to say that every single day I change. If our very nature as a human changes after the resurrection, then my argument is null and void. However, LDS scripture states that before we were born, we were spirits, and before we were spirits, we were intelligences. This means by definition that our consciousness has existed since at least that point, and doctrine says that our consciousness will continue to exist for eternity. All I can say is that part of consciousness is the ability to change, for change is required for growth. Scripture says that we will continue to grow after the resurrection (D&C 126 if you’re interested), and because change is required for growth I cannot accept that someone would not change in such a way as want to repent, eventually, at some point in the future.
November 19th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Alma 34
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he welleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
The idea is that if you do not repent in this life, YOU WILL NOT REPENT THEN. There is no more time to repent or change.
Think about this:
Why come to this earth? Why take on mortal bodies? Because we could no longer progress, we hit the end to that potential. To come to this life was a choice we had to make because here there is opprotunity for change, for many that was a wonderful opprotunity, for others they feared that it would not work in their favor.
Abraham 3:
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Why is it that Lucifer rebelled? Why is that he became Satan? The hebrew meaning of the two names is interesting Lucifer means “light bringer” but when he fell he became Satan which means “opposer”. He was in the presence of God, and had glory, but chose to rebel and to seek the take away the agency of man. Why would he want to take away man’s agency? because in a state of change, such as mortality, the only way to remain the same is to take away everyone’s agency and make them do what you want. Life’s purpose would have been wasted, we would go for change and then not be given the chance to prove ourselves because our Agency is taken away.
D&C 93
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the alight is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
When Christ comes on the Earth it is said he will reveal all things. if all things are revealed then all principles will be received as the scriptures are clear that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, by the end of the millennium everyone will have to make that same simple choice they made in the pre-estistance. Whether to accept the plan or not. Those that refuse will join with Satan.
Revelations 20:
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
D&C 88
114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all.
115 For Michael shall fight their battles, and shall overcome him who seeketh the throne of him who sitteth upon the throne, even the Lamb.
116 This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.
There will no longer be death, the choices to be made will be made before final judgment which occurs after this great battle. After death you can still make choices, but once Judgment occurs that’s it. The person you are is who you are going to remain because there is no longer time, there isn’t opportunities to change.
D&C 126 has nothing to do with it, here it is in its entirety:
1 Dear and well-beloved brother, Brigham Young, verily thus saith the Lord unto you: My servant Brigham, it is no more required at your hand to leave your family as in times past, for your offering is acceptable to me.
2 I have seen your labor and toil in journeyings for my name.
3 I therefore command you to send my word abroad, and take especial care of your family from this time, henceforth and forever. Amen.
Did you mean another section?
November 21st, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Tithing is not exclusive to Mormons. Tithing is just as common in the Catholic Church – it’s called the weekly offering (although in my particular Church it is actually referred to as tithing.) And just so you make sure you do in fact tithe, the Church sends you nifty envelopes that are perfect size for checks or cold hard cash. They even have lay church officers collect the dough in the middle of the mass. Nifty.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14741b.htm
Honestly though…you could use bizarre to describe any religion or religious belief that you don’t understand or choose to believe. I know alot of Baptists who think Catholics have bizarre beliefs, and Christians that believe many Jewish customs are bizarre. Its really all in the eye of the beholder.
I would point out, as others already have, that the word “bizarre” is loaded and non-neutral language. I probably would get offended too if someone called my beliefs bizarre.
November 21st, 2008 at 1:35 pm
MJ: My comment yesterday didn’t get published. I meant the section 76.
Also, your scriptures prove my point. It’s the fact that you can’t repent after this life that I disagree with. I wish I could have as much faith as you that things will be worked out in the end and all will be done fairly, but I just don’t.
SoCalJeff: Thanks for the input concerning the Catholics. As I stated in the item on the list, tithes are not uncommon, but in the LDS church they’re mandatory to get to heaven. Also, as I’ve stated before, when I submitted the list, I did not use the term bizarre.
November 21st, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Mystern: “…but in the LDS church they’re mandatory to get to heaven.”
Thanks for your response, I do appreciate the effort you put in creating the list and the commitment you have made to responding to comments.
I would still suggest, however, that as a Catholic I’ve experienced the expectation that “good Catholics” tithe and its been pretty well documented that in certain Catholic sub cultures, territorial prelates, and personal prelates tithing is just as mandatory as it is in the Mormon Church. It may not be as organized from Rome down (as it is from Salt Lake City down), but there is an expectation that weekly offerings will be given and that there is a spiritual reward for that offering. And it would appear based on the Catholic Encyclopedia reference I gave before it is just as formalized a precess in places like Quebec (but I have no first hand knowledge of it).
…also I haven’t even touched upon the financial expectations expressed by Rome to recognize an annulment (which is something my wife went through before we were married.)
And if you are still in doubt…come with me and experience a little of that good old fashion Irish Catholic guilt that is readily dispensed by my mother and grandmother. You will have not doubt about how you will get to heaven
November 21st, 2008 at 5:04 pm
This is why i love Catholics
Mystern,
If you can think of a way you would change after judgment let me know. Because what I’m saying is that if you don’t want to change NOW, I don’t think you will then. That’s “WANT,” because just as much faith as I have that the Lord will take care of things, I have that you can change, but it has to do with your choice.
When there is no more opposition what makes you think you will spontaneously change our mind? It almost sounds like physical law, “an object in motion tends to remain in motion until acted upon.”
I think it would be a good idea as SoCalJeff points out nicely, that you might trying attending different churches. I think it will help you find the faith and motivation to make choices now that will lead you to be in the presence of the Father.
December 1st, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Question? do Mormons believe that we all become Jew’s once we become true Christians?
December 1st, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Question? Do Mormon’s believe Christians become Jew’s, because of the circumcision of the heart?
December 1st, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Answers! No and No!
First off, if you want an authorized answer then talk to missionaries or go to the church websites mormons.org or lds.org and do a search on your questions. Second off, if you want an opinion of a member who may be less than educated in the doctrine of the church then continue to post on these types of websites. Third off, oh what the heck, I’ll just tell you what I think…remember though, I might be one of the less than edumacated ones.
Being Christian has nothing to do with it, and Jew’s have next to nothing to do with it. It is believed that through Abraham are all nations of the Earth blessed. This stemming from the Abrahamic covenant the Lord made with him. I like to think of it in terms of he being the first born and having the birth right. All the gentiles would be after that. Being the first born they are the ones who are chosen to inherit the kingdom of God amongst other blessings, provided they abide by all the other obligations and such required for that priviledge. The rest of us then have the opportunity to be adopted into the House of Israel (Jews are called such because they primarily come from the line of Judah) but the House of Israel has always been greater and more significant than what the modern day “Jewish” nation represents. Anyway, by being adopted into the house of Israel we are able to partake of the blessings of the birth right, regardless of prior religious beliefs. But, again, just because we get adopted into that birth right doesn’t mean we get to partake of its blessings if we do not do what is necessary (ie obey the commandments). The method we generally believe for the adoption to take place is baptism.
Good luck trying to figure out what I just said. I just made most of it up in an attempt to put my thoughts on paper, but I think its fairly close though.
December 10th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
I have met with missionaries over the past 6 months. I didn’t want to be rude and turn them away so I let them in. Well, during those 6 months, 3 of them finished up their 2 yr missions.
The new ones who have visited say the same things, with the same tone of voice, all with the same testimony and ALWAYS tell me, just ask God if the Book of Mormon is true.
Very sweet, nice people but severly misguided. IMO anyway.
I tell them my opinion…I’m over organized religion. They say, is that what you think we are? Uhhhhhh yes.
December 10th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
So does that mean you are for disorganized religion? or that you are on a plane above organized religion? or are just not religious at all? or none of the above?
Just curious!
Isn’t it wonderful to know that you can walk into any church around the world and they would be teaching and testifying of the same things no matter the language. Well, either we do a good job at mind washing and control, or else the spirit of God likes organization and publishing peace and glad tidings in the same way.
Incidentally, the ask God if the Book of Mormon is true is very common request because most Christians already believe the Bible is the word of God so that is a mute point, but if the Book of Mormon is also true then that means there is greater knowledge that can be otained and one would be blessed by using it to their advantage in the effort to get to know God better which is the only way to obtain eternal life. (John 17:3) – the knowing God part that is. Likewise, if other good books exist then one should search out the best they offer. We should always be improving our fighting poition even if we plan on leaving it tomorrow. (A little Army theory)
Anyway, hope all works out for you.
December 24th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Listening to one group of Christians giggle at another for bizarre beliefs is hilarious. Those same people will look you straight in the eye and, with a straight face, tell you the Earth is 7000 years old and the Flintstones is a documentary (thanks Lewis Black).
Defending them?
No.
Trashing all of you?
Yes.
Magical thinking is the root of all badness.
December 25th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Listening to one group of Christians giggle at another for bizarre beliefs is hilarious.
Those same people will look you straight in the eye and, with a straight face, tell you the Earth is 7000 years old and the Flintstones is a documentary (thanks Lewis Black).
December 25th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I won’t ever set foot in THE HATE STATE of Utah, due to their working their followers up in to an anti-gay frenzy and using tax-free church/cult dollars to get 20,000 EXISTING gay marriages destroyed… and not even in “their own” state.
To those few non-Mormons in Utah, you have 49 other states to choose from.
December 26th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
I just want to thank you, Mystern, for such an accurate list of our eccentric beliefs. I accept them (literally OR figuratively, with plenty of personal interpretation), and I am as active as it gets, but I understand totally how silly they seem to others. I appreciate your sincerity and honesty in presenting them as accurately as you have.
For those Mormons using this site to try to convert and/or argue, please stop and re-read very carefully what Mystern has written – both in the original post and in the comments. There is absolutely no animosity in the words, and there is much defending of us as good, sincere people – with whom others simply can disagree and whose beliefs appear bizarre. In the big picture, this is an ally (or, at the very least, a neutral observer), not an enemy. We often talk of being “peculiar people” – so why do we get upset when people see us as such?
Anyway, I don’t have anything substantive to add. I just appreciate how civil and direct and respectful you have been. So, thanks – from someone who has been around long enough and lived in enough places to be sick of what this post could have been. I’m thankful it wasn’t and just wanted to say that.
December 27th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Ray,
Thank you for being open. You’re correct, I hold no animosity toward any member or the church itself. I wrote this list to inform, accurately and honestly. Thanks for seeing that.
December 28th, 2008 at 2:20 am
“Believe me, I know far more about LDS doctrine than almost any average church member.”
This is a really cocky and unprovable statement. Your list is pretty accurate, but you have a lot of nerve to presume what “any average church member” knows about their own religion, especially since you left the faith.
December 28th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Thanks to all posters for your insights. I live in a very Mormon area of California and appreciate any information I can get in attempting to understand their beliefs.
Not that I would EVER consider converting, after reading this, it’s even crazier than I thought it was!
In defense of the Prop 8 thing, most of the Mormons I know voted for it out of fear that their children would be taught homosexual sex in Kindergarten and their churches would be sued for not performing homosexual weddings (dumb, du, du, du, dumb).
December 28th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Mystern,
Nice list overall.
Couple things though.
First, I don’t think that murder is an unforgivable sin in Mormon doctrine. The scriptural passage in question states that the “shedding of innocent blood” is an unforgivable sin. However, I think there is solid grounds to read this as a symbolic passage – basically, Christ is the only truly “innocent” blood and denying the Holy Ghost is, in effect, crucifying him anew. Thus the “shedding of innocent blood.” It’s basically just another way of describing the denial of the Holy Ghost (which is a rejection of God made with full light an knowledge – pretty dang rare).
As others have said, if murder is unforgivable, then Moses and Paul are probably in trouble. What is more, there is a story in the Book of Mormmon of an entire group of non-believers converting to the church and repenting of the murders they had committed and burying their weapons of war.
So no, I very much doubt that mere murder is unforgivable.
Secondly, I know there are various statements from LDS authorities to the effect that there is no progression between kingdoms in the hereafter.
However, I have also read statements from OTHER LDS apostles that there is, in fact, progression between kingdoms. So take that for whatever it’s worth.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
296. Seth R. You do know that the Bible and every one of its verses can be taken in different perspectives and meanings. Innocent blood could mean that … well let me use a metaphorical little story.
Frank kills Hunter because Hunter is accused of killing Frank’s father but he did not kill Frank’s father. Frank, after killing Hunter who is not guilty of commiting that crime, is guilty of “spilling innocent blood.”
December 28th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Jeremy Jensen,
I’ll be the first to agree, it is presumptuous of me, yet it’s nevertheless true. Yeah, I’m egocentric, and yeah, it’s unprovable, however, speaking from my experience of all the time I’ve been in the church, I honestly believe I had a better grasp of the gospel than most.
Did I mention I’m prideful as well
Seth R,
Ok, I’ll admit saying a blanket statement such as “You can’t be forgiven of murder” is not entirely accurate, so let me specify. Any form of pre-meditated murder you cannot be forgiven for. I’m not talking about fighting in a war, or killing the man who raped your wife, I’m talking about planning to kill your neighbor to steal his wife. I’m talking about planning to poison the water supply of a city because you don’t like the city. I’m talking about killing someone who has not provoked you in any way, shape or form. I’m not talking about the gray areas, because honestly I don’t know; I’m talking about cut and dry first degree murder.
Regarding your second statement, I believe you may be referring to the statements about progressing through tiers of the Celestial kingdom. If you indeed have heard church leadership speaking of moving from one kingdom to the next, I’m going to go with the current standard of whatever the Living Prophet says, since he overrules dead prophets and outranks anyone else living.
December 28th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
I didn’t have time to read all the comments (it’s pretty remarkable that this thread has lasted as long as it has). Did you provide a citation to a modern prophetic statement on the subject of murder?
Who says the murders of King Lamoni’s people (in the book of Mosiah) weren’t premeditated? That seems a dubious proposition.
Furthermore, if we are going to stretch the rules about what is “pre-meditated” and what is not, you’re going to be writing off an awful lot of murders as “not premeditated.” Insanity would seem to be a defense. So would being in war. So would being really angry. So would being scared, or feeling coerced. It seems you are left with very few real life murders after all the exceptions.
Maybe Mormon Doctrine has something on it… Not that that book is necessarily authoritative, but…
December 28th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
“They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.”
I’m going to take issue with this…
I do realize that there are Mormons out there who believe the sort of thing you described up there, but there’s an important nuance that needs to be brought out.
Standard LDS doctrine does not call for simple polytheism, and it has never mentioned multiple universes. Any belief individual Mormons may hold regarding those things is limited to their own (mis)understandings.
A good way to understand the Mormon concept of becoming “a god” is to consider a passage where Jesus is praying to God the Father, on behalf of his followers.
John 17
“20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”
We consider both Jesus and the Father to be gods. We hope to someday–through faith in Christ, repentance, and striving to live his words–be so perfectly aligned with them that we will be “one” with them.
Obtaining the highest level of heaven is not about achieving a rank/title and then foraging out to some alternate universe. It doesn’t work like that. It is about coming to know God, and coming to know as we are known. (1 Cor. 13:12-13)
December 31st, 2008 at 2:44 am
There is a movie about the mountain meadows murders which is what was referred to in an earlier post (#45) as the forgotton things. The name of the movie is ” September Dawn” with John Vought.
December 31st, 2008 at 9:15 am
The movie September Dawn was almost universally panned by critics on grounds of sucking eggs. It also sacrificed an objective telling of the story in favor of stupid scenes with the Mormons chanting “blood atonement” like a bunch of medieval warlocks about to sacrifice a virgin. It would have been a great chance to delve into the psychology of how otherwise ordinary people can suddenly snap and commit atrocities. But the movie squandered that opportunity in favor of cheap theatrics.
If you want to learn about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I’d recommend the following books:
American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 by Sally Denton
Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Ronald W. Walker, Richard E. Turley, and Glen M. Leonard
Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Will Bagley
The Mountain Meadows Massacre by Juanita Brooks
The Walker/Turley/Leonard book is by Mormon historians with official ties to the LDS Church. The other books are from sources much less connected to the Church, and some are actually antagonistic to the official LDS position on the incident.
Whatever you do, don’t go to John Krakauers “Under the Banner of Heaven” for information. Very dumb book, full of historical inaccuracies, and severely lacking in historical research.
December 31st, 2008 at 10:14 am
Thanks for the correction. Other than stumbling on this webbsite I dont care what the LDS position is on sucking eggs.
Truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes, but I could’nt imagine worse than a massacre to religiously cleanse the land in a civilized America.
The salient fact remains these Mormon, LDS, or whatever forerunner denomination of brigham young that led to the Latter day saints; are not led by a Holy Spirit known to most all God Fearing people as “the comfortor” but rather driven by thier own false interpretation of scripture and the evil power of religious zealots over “otherwise ordinary people”. I think the mormon people are other than thier misguided beliefs ordinary people.
Except of coarse for one named Glenn Beck who is a self described “Sick Freak” that wraps his head with duct tape so it cant explode when pushed beyound the limit of an ordinary persons intellect on an exceptionaly productive fishing expedition for morons on his friday radio broadcast, moron trivia.
Proves again how the insanity of religion keeps people out of trouble or in this case dragging out a blog to its ridiclous extreme. peace on earth goodwill toward men
December 31st, 2008 at 10:24 am
“The salient fact remains these Mormon, LDS, or whatever forerunner denomination of brigham young that led to the Latter day saints; are not led by a Holy Spirit known to most all God Fearing people as “the comfortor” but rather driven by thier own false interpretation of scripture and the evil power of religious zealots over “otherwise ordinary people”.”
That is so far from being a fact as to be laughable. At best, it’s your own damn opinion. At worst, it’s a mean-spirited attack based solely on the fact that someone disagrees with you on religion.
The Jon Voight movie was a disgusting propaganda piece that should be rejected by all fair-minded people.
December 31st, 2008 at 10:39 am
You didn’t read my post very closely.
I didn’t give you the “LDS position on sucking eggs.” Just about every movie critic in the country thought the movie was basically substandard. That’s hardly a “Mormon view.”
And I gave you a bunch of book references that are not “Mormon sources.” Juanita Brooks and Bagley are both widely regarded as the authoritative historical sources on the incident by objective scholars who have nothing to do with the LDS Church.
Of course, I agree with you that there was nothing godly about the massacre itself. No arguments there.
January 1st, 2009 at 3:37 pm
OK unfortunatly the fact remains the LDS massacre happened, (just like the holocaust akmenijhad).
Does it matter that much to you if im intolerant of mormonism or other religious cults started by false prophets and now want to gloss over the negative truths. I will give you tea or whatever you want(not hot) or buy you lunch if i meet you in person. We could talk about anything but not about the book of mormon. But I will pray with you(with one eye open). just kidd’n.
To me the LDS and other false religions are like the Alchoholics anonymous groups who gather and speak of a higher power and see a painting on the wall of a giant hand reaching down as to help them. But rather than find Him who spells out plainly how to be saved in the real bible and change, they say”(like a bunch of mormons chanting “blood atonement” like a bunch of medieval warlocks about to sacrifice a virgin, ” my name is and Im an alcoholic”. Then they work at trying to stop drinking and change themselves by these 12 steps. Theres 2 steps in the Bible. Admit it and QUit it.
So its like the Apostle Paul in the book of Acts who says you people worship and honor even by a statue in his name
‘to the unknown God” But you can know this God. ANd thats not by two years of riding a bicycle around passing out literature. Or refraining from certain foods and hanging tassles from your hair jewish friends. Or the Saturday observance 7th day friends. one word, “Jesus” saves Period.
Oh and its not by wiping out the infidels either mr mohammawhatever.
The discussions of what view you take of these religious cults like LDS is about as productive (or appealing as sucking eggs).
At best you joust with the brain cells of your brother of another mother. At worst you just waist time getting Sucked in yourself. But it has a stimulating effect I admit. Use time wisely. Because you will certainly be screwd by law.
January 1st, 2009 at 4:12 pm
“There’s 2 steps in the Bible. Admit it and Quit it.”
“Jesus” saves Period.”
Aren’t these two statements contradictory? If “Jesus saves – period” then what role is there for human action?
Just trying to get a bead on whether you are one of those grace-only Evangelicals I encounter regularly on the internet, or something else.
January 1st, 2009 at 4:14 pm
okay you people who argue through comments on this list need to GET LIVES!! you could be doing something soooo much better with your time…..
January 1st, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Like what?
Some people do World of Warcraft. Some people do fly fishing. Some people obsess about their fantasy football league.
I do this kind of stuff.
And since follow up comments are just routed to my email inbox, it really doesn’t take up as much of my time as you’d think.
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
You got a point Ruins, time is precious. this thing is almost a year old and I stumbled here a couple of days ago looking for something to find to talk about with the prettiest little woman at state farm. She told me she was a mormon and did not celebrate Christmas or birthdays etc.. I felt like she thought I was an infedel trying to defile her when I invited her to church. That put a wild hair in me. What is wrong with singing joy to the world the Lord has come with the rest of us I said.
Sorry if I offended anyone on this site, jeremy jensen
Hi Im Jeff im not an alcoholic, or mormon, ( im not good with mormon girls for sure) Im not a grace only evangelical Seth, but Im a square peg that gets tired of people telling me I have to give up spongebob and shape down into a circle or smiley face like them to fit into heaven.
Seth I think the role for human action is to just be on the recieving end of the greatest gift you could ever get in the world. Step 1. I found Jesus, Step 2. I am becoming more like him. Hes not square or round but he somehow can fit in my heart. Thats whats so hard to get out of my head.
I get tired of discussing the dos and donts with people who are following His shadow double. (counterfets.)
Happy New year.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Well, #1 rings true to me in some wierd way… though Mormon reasoning just baffles me.
Seriously, ‘Terrestrial, Celestial and TELESTIAL Kingdoms’ don’t sound made up to the believers?
The whole Joseph Smith story is just… I don’t know… Are people this gullible?
Well, heck, some of what’s in the Bible’s just equally devoid of sense, so…
As long as no one gets hurt, though…
January 7th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
lawscrew, please at least get your accusations straight so it sounds truthful. Mormons celebrate Christmas and birthdays; Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t.
Finally, you said, “Step 1. I found Jesus, Step 2. I am becoming more like him.”
Just so you know, that is the core of Mormon doctrine in a nutshell.
January 7th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Oh, and to compare the Mountain Meadows Massacre to the Holocaust is simply heinous and beyond the pale.
January 8th, 2009 at 1:23 am
Why cant you liberal cultist quit blowing Smoke REYS in my face? It may appear to thinking people that mormon psyche while well intentioned is actually stunting the natural process of spiritual growth to the level of our beloved Diety and should eternalize the fact that religiousness among earthen humans gravitates away from that bar untill we lay down this temporary habitation. Our riteousness is filthy Rags. So your mormon core doctrine is filthy rags, if you believe the bible, Thats why you have a differant Bible. I never said I was righteous, but You say you are?
Maybe you think Im simple minded but you sound like amenijhad, a delusional creature on a wide road leading to a hot place in denial and attempting to rewrite historical truths. You probably want Hamas to stop shelling only if Isreal does?. More mormon reasoning is what the world needs now hugh? Or should we just torch the whole place and let God sort us all out in the end? Are you trying to start fights? We need to agree on the original undevided one lord one faith one baptism. But that is not good enough right rey, we need a blue book of Mormon, or Islam, or Talmid, or Joseph Smith, or Ellen white, or David Koresh, maybe Tom Cruise is a prophet in disguise and will usher Paul Harvey to the stage to bring us all truth seekers “The r EST of the story”. legalism kills
January 8th, 2009 at 1:35 am
Oh and the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Holocaust were both perpetrated by the same ungodly evil minded zealots from Hell. There needs no objective telling or shades of grey, it is blatant. Sureley some of you Mormon God people could have made a differance, but I guess you had to be slaughtered for purification. Maybe the next go around, Also when are you outstanding Mormons going to cure Cancer?
January 8th, 2009 at 1:44 am
You are sick crew Mormons. While trying to attain the higher levels of society and wanting to Be Jesus, you only remind me of the lawyers Jesus rebuked.
I think your just hanging around to pick the gold crowns out of peoples mouths when they die.
Hows that for heinous and beyond the pale?
January 8th, 2009 at 8:13 am
OK….
I think I understood about a third of that….
I suppose that since we have history of a few American soldiers slaughtering prisoners of war and raping the local girls in Europe, that must mean that every World War II vet is part of “one sick crew.”
January 9th, 2009 at 5:57 am
LOOOOOOONG rant ALERT!
To Lawscrew (and Mormons as well, apparently),
You don’t want to become like Jesus. He was nowhere near perfect.
He was intolerant, vengeful and irascible. A know it all who really didn’t know enough to pass on to others some of the ideas he defended and tried to convey to the world around him (at least that’s what we get from Scriptures, even the book of Mormon).
Sort of like a Steven Segal who’s all spiritual and sh*t, but who will kick your ass if you disagree with him in any way. Because he’s right and you’re not. – Feel free to be offended by this comparison, BTW, because we have no idea if the real Jesus was like this. What we read is what some people wrote hundreds of years after he was dead.
If (the New Testament’s) Jesus were perfect, he would have presented proof he was savior without any shadow of a doubt, and his doctrine would have been accepted by all immediately. Further more, he wouldn’t want others punished, harmed or forgotten because they didn’t believe his origin.
One word would be enough to reveal how wrong those men on the temple were without him having to ‘turn the moneychangers’ tables’ or ‘send everyone who was buying and selling’ out of there (I imagine yelling at them, too).
Picture this example:
Jesus, speaking to everyone at the temple: “Don’t you realize how wrong what you’re doing is?”
Everyone: “No. Explain to us”
Jesus proceeds to explain it with absolute, instinctive truths and such an infallible logic, that it could only be available to the son of the Creator.
Everyone: “Oh… ok, you’re absolutely right. You must be someone very special”
Jesus: “I’m the son of the one, true God”
Everyone: “I believe you must be, or you wouldn’t make so much sense and speak so deeply to our hearts“
Everyone packs up their stuff peacefully and feel they’re doing exactly what needs to be done.
Jesus is happy, the faithful are happy, the merchants and moneychangers are happy. The world is a better place and Jesus probably isn’t feared, pursued or sentenced to die later on because this is how he behaves.
Perfection and absolute truth leave no room for error or doubt – such should be the power of God or any almighty power.
God MUST NOT be accepted because you’re threatened with Hell or bribed with the prospect of later reward in the form of an idyllic second, eternal and suffering-free existence.
God should be accepted as an inevitability and come from within yourself, naturally and with no teaching, not through books MEN, not gods, wrote. The very Nature of something we can’t possibly understand because we are so limited is what reveals God to us. It’s ridiculous to think such a powerful thing as the Creator of all things would have to ‘persuade’ us by sending His son to us to prove his existence, or select and assign prophets to spread the message – and then observe as nothing of this worked to prove to the whole world He, in fact, is.
Instead, He would have created us with the imbedded notion that He exists, and no one would doubt it, just like no one doubts they need to breathe air in order to keep living – a newborn baby knows he/she needs air without being told.
God has to be a self-evident truth or He lacks His most defining characteristics: omnipresence and omnipotence.
Now, the steps:
Step 1. – Understand you’re just another part of the universe, equal in importance and relevance, no matter who you are, what you’ve done so far or where you come from. The worms that’ll eat you when you’re buried don’t care if you were Genghis Kahn, Britney Spears or the guy who serves lattes at Starbucks. We’re all just meat bags for about 70 years, then we’re food for those who’re left behind – physical and spiritual food.
Step 2. – Do the right thing. And you know what the right thing is when you see no one’s getting hurt on your path to being a better person, but instead are joining in. Not through force or blind faith imposed by other people’s ‘teachings’ or dogmas, but because it’s self evident. Only then, you will be closer to God.
Now, on Step 2, ‘no one getting hurt’ means exactly that. Consider not only what YOU think or say but what OTHERS feel is better for them as well. When the scales are balanced and everyone’s happy, then we’re getting closer. This is nearly impossible, of course, but what else would we be if not human if we didn’t try it?
God is different for every one of us, even amongst those who say they share the same faith. Your sibling, your parent or your friend, even if they share your beliefs, see God differently than you do because you are different people and have different perceptions of the world around and inside you.
And everyone believes in God, even those who don’t. An atheist’s explanation for the Universe is simply his vision of God.
I believe in God too, but I found Him myself, and He’s much simpler and absolute than I can ever fathom. And I like it that way, it’s much more comforting than Heaven – eternity is too frightening anyway…
January 10th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
So you got your own way, truth and life and found where to looooooong rant it.(mememe)
You are god, you make your own heaven and your ultimate gift to this world is you plan to be so kind and feed a bunch of its worms like everyone else sucking air for a few years. Does’nt get any better than you have it hugh?
Usually everything is fine untill you get plopped out of your own warm sack of comfort and serenity of perfection and find your hanging upside down, naked scared, screaming, and the man in a white coat who just whacked you, hands you off to the one that through familiar chemistry and undeniably is so loving, you feel so pleased, content and secure like all babies who belonged to God fearing prolife women.
Why were you considered worthy to come to term and not scrambled up and trashed with all your ideas and individual freedoms, values, morals, defects. I think because in the years you were born people still had a conscience and moral compass that told them right from wrong and mothers probably read scriptures from the maguffy reader and you heard the pledge of allegience and prayer in SChool.
You are lucky but in the present atmosphere or worse, fly food.
I agree with the bible you have referred to. He came to us so we would know Him. Then it would be best if we become like Him so others would know the Father.
How good of a father are you? The first thing that gets aborted in the life of a real man and father is Me Me Me in order to make room for the the things you always wanted but could not get by yourself.
God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:40 am
You are so small minded you chose to see things your way. Proof of that is:
1) You assume I’m a man
2) You assume I am American (pledge of allegiance? The world is very big, you know…)
3) You assume my family is in any way religious, that I have ever had Scriptures in my house or that they were ever read to me. For all you know, I may be an 80 year old Chinese woman who follows Taoism.
4) My moral compass were a woman and a man who were completely flawed. But all their family and friends knew them to be good people who would help anyone just because we’re all humans and we all have problems. Neither was religious at all (one still isn’t) and it has never influenced their decisions on right and wrong.
My view of the world came, in fact, from a substantial amount of grief and psychological trials. I gave up a lot for the sake of others and I’m suffering the consequences as we speak, so making room in my life for the sake of my family or friends was never an issue or a complicated decision. It was the right thing to do.
I sought the Christian God’s help once as a child (everyone around me did it, so I did as well), but since neither comfort nor hope came from it, I became sceptic and chose to discover if that was all there was.
It wasn’t. The world itself is a universe and God comes in many ways – your way, my way, everyone’s way. If it wasn’t so, there would be only one religion, not dozens.
I’m glad you’re so righteous and so sure of your faith, because if you’re doing something in the name of God and He’s not at all what you say he is, you’re pretty much screwed in His eyes. I would only be so sure of my view of God if He spoke to me personally.
Doing the right thing is the only thing that’ll save you – shame on you for being so selfish and so ignorant that you never understood THAT was supposed to be your God’s message.
Being so angry and so negative, criticising people for not being the same as you is not only ignorant but also dangerous.
ALL despots did it, so be careful…
You seem pretty aggressive and angry. I don’t think God is helping you in the right way…
January 11th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Oh, I forgot, that last comment was for Lawscrew.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Thith ith thabulous….sorry my lisp…
might join up….caffeine is well bad eh?
January 12th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
you better bite that lisped tongue. I spit in that cup of coffee your drinking and put that cigarette out you sinning dirty dawg. May all those sinks in your house be blocked until you can no longer wash and may your lisp grow bigger until you can no longer sthpeak! Peace!
January 13th, 2009 at 2:05 am
If no help or comfort comes from you seeking God, then you should just let Him find you willing to change according to His will. If you need something differrant you have to do something differant. All other gods require man to do something to be worthy(even the mormons), but only one God does all the work to reach out to you, that you recieve.
Wisdom is the ability to discern differrances between the Christian God and all other gods. The Word of God is the Wisdom of God. If you want to know what God thinks(not lawscrew) or mormons you must understand your Knowledge of God is porportional to your knowledge of His Word. That Word and Wisdom you need will only work proportianal to your acceptance of His will.
MJ in earlier posts seems to quote the Bible well and because he unnecessarily adds the blue book quotations of some guy named Nephi(saying his words are the words of Christ)then you can’t really credit his faith. Why? Because you will be thwarted and diverted by all of the religions in this world who have sought to add or take away anything from the bible, including but not limited to the LDS blue book. Just as discouraged and void of Gods power is someone who may know everything about the Bible yet does not have a relationship with its author intimately by a spiritual awakening that gives you a heart transplant. Easiest trap to this is living with hypocrite people who preach but do not practice it and have a scewed view of thier world.
You can be sure of faith in God if you gain His view, but if you prefer to have your own view, or mormon view or any other etc.. than simply Christ centered you can’t help but be frustrated. Because of your limited understanding of His word , Your eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of ” you ” the things God has in store for those who love Him. God wants to replace the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, that His Spirit might dwell in you, and you might have provisions spiritual and physical, also you might have fellowship with others.(Not like minded believers) But believers who have the mind of Christ. Led by Gods Spirit, and who according to scripture are “the church” or “Body of Christ”.
iths justh besthh to rethisth contraversy and be at peeth with all God and men
January 13th, 2009 at 5:18 am
Lawscrew:
You’re free to keep your faith . No one has the power to take it away, and that’s how it should be – it’s yours and it has worked for you so far. Fine.
Just don’t try to undermine other people’s faiths with arguments like the ones you’ve presented because it will not work.
Your arguments’ biggest flaw is this: The Bible is not God’s word. It’s someone else’s, it’s by the people who wrote it – and we all know it wasn’t God. Heck, it wasn’t even the prophets/apostles/whatever themselves! The men who wrote the Bible were paraphrasing from oral tradition, centuries later after everything happened, and even I (who don’t believe the mystical part of the Bible, but accept the historical part, even if it’s told from one single people’s point of view) think it’s offensive to Abraham’s God, that these men’s views on His word are taken with such certainty and self-righteousness. I hear pride is a sin, btw.
Numerous and poor translations have been made from the original books and have led to countless misinterpretations and errors – even crimes against humanity because of those errors: the Inquisition, Holy Wars (the very combination of these two words is laughable), the Crusades, torture, slavery, the Holocaust…
One example of how misinterpreting of words can have such an impact is Mary Magdalene, who was considered to be a prostitute for hundreds of years and only later on it was admitted she was not the same woman Jesus protected from the stoning and an entirely different person altogether. The Church had to issue an official announcement, correcting this assumption and elevating Mary Magdalene to sainthood. This had no consequences for Mary Magdalene herself, obviously because she was dead, but gypsies, Jews and people of ‘alternative’ lifestyles were killed by supposedly ‘Christian’ Nazis not so long ago, who believed to be part of a superior race, descendent from angels who came down to earth and mated with human women (Hitler read Nietzsche, a religious nut, and took it literally).
The Bible, as we know it, was cut ruthlessly a few hundred years ago by a few members of the church; from the numerous books only a couple were accepted as true – and their number even changes according to which Church you ask (orthodox, roman catholic, etc).
The current version was compiled/translated by St. Jerome and even now, King Jame’s bible contains so many errors that new versions had to be done so the texts would be more faithful to the originals.
Is the message still the same? I’m not so sure – just one word or a common name can change the entire meaning of a sentence.
Plus, many books, completely set apart from the Bible have gained such importance to less informed believers, that nowadays stuff like the seven deadly sins (not in the Bible) or associating the name Lucifer to an fallen angel who turned on God and became the Devil (not in the Bible either) are accepted as truth. It’s all very complicated and confusing and it’s wrong to say ‘I know the truth and you don’t’, because no one knows it, really.
Do you, for example, accept the Old Testament and follow all of it, or, specifically the Torah, given to Moses by God Himself? I don’t think you do…
Mohamed was given the word of God as well (Allah is Abraham’s God – and Jesus is a prophet in Islamic faith!) and yet you don’t consider the Qur’an the word of God.
Because you know better, because that was what you were taught…
Basically, you’re like a horse with its eyes covered from the outer world and you prefer it that way.
One more thing – I wrote that seeking God gave me no hope or comfort and you say it was because I wasn’t willing to change to accept Him. Well, this happened when I was 8-9 years old. I don’t think I had the maturity of mind to consciously force myself to refuse to change. I even took first communion, so, again, that was not it.
I was trying to get comfort from wherever it came. It came years later, when I had grown up already.
I was never denied God in whichever form just because my parents weren’t religious – fortunately, I was always encouraged to seek my own answers without prejudice and I was never forbidden to seek God, read the Bible or attend mass. I just didn’t find Him like you did, I found a much less restricting, comforting and forgiving form of the ultimate power of the universe.
And one which has no limits, like your God definitely has.
Keep your faith; you’re entitled to do it, and you have every right to defend it. Some of its teachings are very beautiful and ethical – but please be tolerant and don’t claim to own the truth. We have so much to learn yet.
… why ith everyone lithping all of a thudden?
January 16th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Some of are learning yes. 70 YR OLD BABIES AND 4 YR OLD PRODIGIES, whAT TO DO WITH A MIND THAT KEEPS LEARNING BUT NEVER COMes TO THE TRUTH. yOU SOUND SMART, AND MAKE AS MUCH SENSE AS ALBERT EINSTIEN. hAVE YOU READ God Vs. Science 1921? You can be nice and placate the masses with religion.(the opiate) But trying to please everyone is the definitian of frustration. It cannot be done. Nor doing the same thing over and again and expecting differant results. That is Insanity.
So your search for God was through a cataholic approach? It is good for some, like you say. But It was not Saint Peter the man they made a saint who CHrist was talking about that would build his church. Rather it was the “Solid Faith” of peter in response to Christs questions. Upon that “solid rock of faith”, I will build my church. At that time people sought to worship Peters, Pauls, Appollosos words, However Jesus said to them then as He intends to say now, For the sake of the Kingdom message they preach, let them be. If they are not for me then they are against me. So as Peter had faith then, so now it is each person that has that same faith who is called a “Rock” of the church and it is by faith not human strenghth. So you will stand for something or fall for anything. According to mememe fall 4 everything.
Any faith or religion that adds or takes away from the finished work of Jesus is therefore a false religion or an Anti-christ faith. Especially if it denies Jesus is the Christ. I cannot accept or passivley condone counterfiets.
God in his perfect wisdom and precise plan has devised a way for the wheat and the tares to grow up side by side untill the day of harvest as it is mentioned, when he will save one and discard the other. Somepeople cannot accept a God that would be like that or as mentioned above appear to be unjust or evil. So it is people who are led astray by doctrines and well intentioned teachers, intelligencia, orators, and salesmen that all the more need to search from an open mind and heart to find God and His love. It is Good news, Peace joy, love, goodness, self control, all benifits and blessings.
What is a sad situation in the future is when some people will stand before Him and say “Lord Lord did we not stand for you and preach for you and do even miracles in your name…?(paraphrased) And he will say to them; ” Depart from me ye workers of iniquity …… for I never knew you.
So all you need is love? George John and Ringo, & Paul.
Well I do not see it any where in the musilm culture, Osama, In fact why do you placate muslims by your reasoming mememe? Islam is not a peace loving faith. Yet you must be suggesting it is the intolerance of people like me that are a danger to the open free practice of Islam, or mormonism, or catholici