In keeping with this site’s love of helping out with holiday plans, this is a list on the top 10 most dangerous places in the world – these are all places you might consider not visiting when planning your next holiday. Some of the items may be a little controversial, but you are, of course, free to ignore our advice and go anyway!
In this crime-ridden, ex-Soviet state, no longer does the government stuff their Armani suits with rubles, but the vandals and gangsters. The Russian mafia runs amuck, there are more gangsters than police, and a Russian is assassinated every 18 minutes, averaging 84 murders per day in a nation of 143 million. The nucleus of Russian crime is stationed in the Republic of Chechnya, a region within Russia just north of Georgia. Prostitution, drug trafficking, and underground restaurants are arbitrarily controlled by the Chechens. Foreigners are kidnapped more frequently due to the higher ransom allocated. Crimes towards include but are not limited to: pick pocketing wallets, cell phones, cameras, cash, and physical assaults. From superpower to Third World country, think tanks are beginning to speculate if communism really was the cure for Russia. [Source]
For anyone traveling to Brazil, it is not a matter of whether you get mugged, it is a matter of when! Grinding poverty still lives alongside incredible wealth in a country that is riding a wave of economic growth. But with prosperity, rates of crime have also soared. Street crime is rampant in parts of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paolo, and whilst many victims are left unharmed, having a broken bottle put to your throat for your bracelet is not pleasant. The incidences of “quicknappings” has risen in major cities. This involves being abducted and taken to an ATM to pay your ransom. If you can’t pay, thanks to mobile technology, your family is only a call away. Along with street crime, organized criminal groups have waged wars against police and public institutions that were unable to be bribed. Prison riots are brutally suppressed, drugs and narco-terrorism claim civilian casualties and if you survive all that – the piranhas are waiting.
Any nation described as the ‘rape capital of the world’ should be one to take extra special care in. Although rape had shown a declining trend to 113.7 in 2004, it increased in 2005 to 118.3 per 100 000. Another damning statistic for South Africa is its appallingly high murder rate. The 2010 World Cup host is consistently in the Top 5 list of countries by homicide rate. Most crime is confined to poor areas but it hasn’t stopped gated communities springing up all over South Africa and armed guards protecting wealthy tourist groups. Farming in South Africa has become one of the most dangerous professions in the world. The murder rate for farmers is 313 per 100 000 – about 8 times the national average. And like anywhere, sex can be very dangerous in South Africa, where more than 10 million people are infected with HIV.
This small, densely populated and poor nation has giant problems. A civil war between Hutus and Tutsis tore the nation apart between 1993 and 2006. A ceasefire was declared however most provisions have not been implemented. Mass murder and mayhem compete with environmental problems as the biggest headaches for the people of Burundi. The list of assassinated leaders is extensive, and control of the nation has changed hands numerous times in the last 50 years. Crimes committed by roaming gangs and armed children are risks for visitors. Muggings, carjackings and kidnappings await, so you are advised not to stop the car for souvenirs. Should you be injured or harmed while in Burundi, you may need to be well trained, as local clinics have almost no resources to assist you.

While murder, rape and robbery may not be a big problem in this part of the world, the hostile conditions are. Antarctica is home to some extreme weather conditions, with the mercury regularly dropping below -60 degrees Celsius (-100F) and winds tearing in at more than 100km/hr. If exposed to this weather for more than an hour, you will most certainly die. Antarctica has no hospitals, no food to forage and if you get lost, not a lot of hope. Stay with the tour groups. At least there is a McDonald’s at Scott Base if you manage to find it.
This nation has for hundreds of years, been one of the worlds most strategically important and lusted after territories. However it remains one of the poorest, undeveloped and unstable. During the Soviet invasion, the Red Army planted more than 12 million landmines in Afghanistan. Hundreds of people are killed, shredded, and maimed each year due to these insidious devices. Following the Soviets came the Taliban, whose control meant women were banned from jobs and universities. In 2001, the United States overthrew the Taliban, but banditry, tribal rivalries and drug related violence has left the nation unstable. Suicide bombings are a constant threat, and nobody in Afghanistan is safe. The most lethal suicide attack occurred in Baghlan Province in November 2007, killing more than 70 people. Did I mention Afghanistan is also the worlds largest supplier of top grade hashish and opium?
Somalia is a failed state known for its anarchy, corruption, lack of government, and starvation. Travelers are warned against entering Somalia, the self-proclaimed “independent Republic of Somaliland” or even sailing near the Horn Of Africa. Pirates patrol these waters armed with AK-47s and will seize craft and hold crews to ransom. Inter-clan fighting has claimed thousands of lives in the north of the country, while territorial control in the capital, Mogadishu is carved up between many clans and warlords. Ethiopia attacked Islamic troops in Somalia in late 2006, resulting in hundreds of casualties and the internal displacement of thousands. Heck, if this place is too much for the Marines, what chance do you stand? Make sure your insurance is fully up to date.
Desperation, death and destruction are synonymous with Sudan. Terrorism is a mainstay of this nation, which has been controlled by Islamic military regimes since its independence. Some of the worlds most famous killers have earned their stripes in Sudan, finishing with degrees in car-bombing, rocket launching and genocide. Violence is rife in the Darfur region between government-backed militias, government troops and local insurgent groups. Sudan has been in open warfare with Chad partly due to the Darfur conflict. Since 2003, 230,000 Sudanese refugees have fled to eastern Chad from Darfur. More than two million have died during the 2 civil wars that spanned the last 50 years. Along with its bleak desert conditions, Sudan is one of the worst places on the planet.

Kidnapping is the main worry in Colombia. There were 2338 kidnappings in Colombia in 1998. Of the victims, 138 were killed by their captors. Ranked Fourth in the world for murders with 69.98/100000 in 2006, the popular targets are mayors, with dozens of them being slain each year. And of course, who can forget cocaine? Colombia supplies 75% of the worlds supply and thanks to Pablo Escobar and the Cali Cartel, paramilitary groups have waged war on the government in a bloody conflict with no end in sight. Even those working in the name of charity are not excluded from the frenzy. In 2005, 5 Catholic missionaries were murdered, down from 9 in 1999. Colombia’s beautiful coast and rugged mountains should make it a tourist paradise, instead it is among the most feared destinations you can visit.
It doesn’t matter whether you are George Bush, Pele or Chuck Norris – you are not safe in Iraq. Despite its rich history and its oil reserves, it is a ruined nation that is wracked with violence, despair and confusion. Since 2003, the United States has occupied Iraq which has led to a civil war claiming the lives of more than 650 000 civilians. Al-Qaeda, Sunni insurgents, Shiite security forces, Kurdish rebels, American soldiers, Turkish troops and criminals are involved in a cycle of violence that unfortunately, will not abate any time soon. Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs), Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFPs) and mines are a constant threat, as are suicide bombers who have slain hundreds. Kidnappings and random killings are reported with almost mind-numbing frequency. Since 2003, 2 million Iraqis have fled to neighboring countries and another 1.9 million in Iraq remain internally displaced. Depleted uranium used as armor-piercing rounds will poison Iraqi civilians and US servicemen for decades. Truly, a hell on earth.
For the average traveller, the USA is fairly safe, but the numbers do not lie. There are more than 200 million guns in the USA and more than 50 murders a day, 10 times the rate of Germany. Nearly 5000 people die a year in truck crashes, about 6000 pedestrains die on the streets and 31000 people end their own lives. The USA now leads all nations in violent crime and leads all nations with incarcerations now standing at 2.3 million. American citizens also make up the greatest number of criminals serving time in overseas prisons. Militias, hate groups and other right wing radicals all spread their message of violence and are known to throw around the odd pipe-bomb. The government is not much better, spending a whopping $600 billion a year on defense in order to contain the handful of nations hostile to it.
Dishonorable Mentions: Haiti, Liberia, and Congo.
Contributor: DentShop














April 8th, 2008 at 5:55 am
Antarctica seems cool though…
April 8th, 2008 at 5:56 am
i thought pakistan had been called the most dangerous place in the world by the economist. even ahead of iraq in their opinion. I for one disagree
April 8th, 2008 at 5:58 am
Whoo hoo! USA! USA!!!
April 8th, 2008 at 5:59 am
I chuckled when I saw the US as number three because it’s so true…Few people realize it but this country is quite messed up, in more ways that one.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:01 am
“There are more than 200 million guns in the USA and more than 50 murders a day, 10 times the rate of Germany”
I think the distinction needs to be made between *gun-related murder* and *murder* rates.
Germany has 10x the gun-related murder rate of the US, but only 4x the murder rate – *per capita*, of course; otherwise the US has some 21x the firearms-related murder rate of Germany – which is a meaningless figure.
Note, too, that a survey rating the “Perception of Safety When Walking in the Dark” had the US come in second (for what it is worth).
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_per_of_saf_wal_in_dar-crime-perception-safety-walking-dark
Methinks that it is difficult to make meaningful conclusions from crime stats.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:02 am
Wow, nice list. USA ranked #3 surprises me though. As a US citizen i feel 100% safe anywhere i travel within the USA. Most violent crime is due to gang activity in the larger cities. Very little violent crime actually occurs outside the large cities.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:10 am
If the US is quite messed up then why is it that everybody wants to immigrate to the US? Also, I own a gun, a 16 gauge shotgun that I received for Christmas when I was 16 (I’m almost 40 now). Does that make me dangerous? The reason America has so many guns is that when the government comes knocking down my door I’ll at least have some sort of weapon to fight against them and don’t say that never happens. Ask the Jews living in Germany during the late 1930’s or how about the people who used to live under Saddam Hussein’s rule. We are still one of the freest nations in the world but because of the radical left wing groups we are slowly losing our freedoms. I’d rather live here in the USA (number 3 dangerous place) than anywhere else in the world.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:10 am
Nice list, I like the ‘dishonorable mentions’. I was expecting to see Afghanistan higher, but meh.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:12 am
Good list, very good, but you are going to take some flack for putting the USA so high on the list. It is reasonably safe if you stay at Disneyland (they have heavy handed security/creepy even), stay out of the poor areas, are not a minority, ( a misnomer – Hispanics are actually the majority in some southern states), and stay on the beaten path. Many of the incarcerated in the States are convicted of drug offences. We discussed this on another list but if you take the non-violent addicts out of the equation the convict rate drops to a semi-reasonable level. Note I said semi-reasonable, there are still to many fire-arms floating around for anyone to be truly safe. Even a traffic altercation can end very badly when everyone has a gun. Lose it with your fists, nobody dies usually, can’t be said for a gun.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:13 am
im suprizes usa wasnt higher on the list. I mean, with us spreading war everyqhere, thats pretty bad…
April 8th, 2008 at 6:14 am
nuglyman, if i went to college with you and realised you had got a shotgun as a “birthday gift”… i would consider that dangerous. especially if you were a loner.
nowhere else in the world would anyone ever be scared about such a person but US gun laws have made all these killings possible. so yes it is dangerous
April 8th, 2008 at 6:20 am
How does 31,000 people ending their own lives make it dangerous to travelers or to other residents of the US? It seems that the number was thrown in just to inflate the statistics especially when I don’t see suicide rates on any other location.
While it is true that the US can be a dangerous place I just don’t see how it’s MORE dangerous than places like Somalia or Afghanistan when you consider that those places have roving militias and no real police or government.
And how often do you see hate groups throwing the “odd pipe bomb”?
Other than that, nice list. I just feel that the US section has a tone to it that is attempting to damn it more than any other entry on the list.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:22 am
ps; do you actually believe it is better to live in Liberia, Congo, or Haiti than the United States? I think you should have placed the USA as the dishonorable mention with the same spiel that you used on the list. People generally don’t starve to death or die of malnutrition related disease in the States. They certainly do in the above mentioned countries.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:22 am
Re the USA “exporting war to every corner of the globe”;
Aside from being a very inflammatory view, I think the term in polite society is “exporting Democracy”
April 8th, 2008 at 6:22 am
The US spreading war across the world does not make the US a dangerous place. It make the places we are speading war dangerous.
How would bringing war to Iraq make Kansas a dangerous place?
April 8th, 2008 at 6:25 am
This list is BS. Just because the US has a lot of guns doesn’t make it dangerous, and 50 murders a day is only one per state, that’s hardly cause for concern. And Otay is right, most violent crime is criminals killing other criminals. Your odds of being the victim of random violent crime are immeasurably small.
And for the last fucking time depleted uranium is not poisonus! If you don’t belive me, how about the International Atomic Engergy Commision, RAND or NATO Secretary Genenral Lord Robertson,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Studies_indicating_negligible_effects
April 8th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Honorable Mention: My House: when my wife finds out I forgot to take out the trash. (Brrr, cold chills… the horror)
April 8th, 2008 at 6:28 am
I live in Montana, 4th largest State, and population less than 1 million. I have several guns, ranging from high power rifles, shotguns as well as hand guns. This is a fairly normal amount of “weaponry” for people around this region. However, very rarely in Montana is a gun used to kill or even attempt to kill another human being. We enjoy and exercise our “Right to bear arms”. We handle our civil disputes in a civil manner here. We do have our fights which usually end up in a knock-down, drag-out fist fight where at the very worste, you may end up with an ass whoopin……not end up getting stabbed or shot.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:28 am
Using the theory that a place is safe if you stay out of the bad nieghborhoods and on the beaten path is true wherever you go.
There are ethnic nieghborhoods in European countries that make some of the US ghettos look like a Disney vacation.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:32 am
And what’s with this crap line, “Militias, hate groups and other right wing radicals all spread their message of violence and are known to throw around the odd pipe-bomb.” With the exception of the Oklahoma City bombing anti-government militia groups are of no real threat. I’m more afraid of the ELF buring donw my house than I am of any militia or right wing group.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:32 am
Kiwiboi; Oh yeah, exporting democracy. We’ll just see how long it takes Iraq to have anything resembling democracy; a mealy mouthed rubber-stamp leader picked by the American administration does not count. America doesn’t export democracy, they just trade anti-american bastards for pro-american bastards. It is a pattern of behavior that hasn’t changed for a hundred years. (ok maybe a little less than 100)
April 8th, 2008 at 6:35 am
thanks for helping out with my holiday plans. I’ll consider this list for my holiday plans next year
April 8th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Dude come on, I would much rather live in the USA than Antarctica. I have a great job here, nice house, etc…Antarctica kills you in an hour! I have beebn alive here for 25 years. Like the USA entry says the numbers dont lie! It’s relative I suppose.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Just before I posted this list to the site I told DentShop to be prepared to answer debates about the inclusion of the USA
I am sure he will be here before long to do so!
In the meantime – I have enjoyed my holidays in the US very much – though I was advised to not walk from my hotel to the city center at night (I was in San Francisco). In New Zealand (where I come from originally) there is not an area of my city (in fact there are probably none in any of our major cities) where i would need to advise someone to do that.
Having said that – the city was great and the people were some of the friendliest and earnest people I have met. I would have no qualms living in the USA.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:47 am
Many of you living outside the United States would not be eating bread if it weren’t for the wheat and grains exported from the United States…….oh and let’s not forget those delicious juicy beef steaks!!!
April 8th, 2008 at 6:49 am
Otay; I agree, rural areas in North America are safe. Rifles and shot guns are prevalent here in Canada. They are tools used for hunting and for killing varmints. Hand guns and machine guns are for killing people. If you are not at the gun club shootin’ targets (my niece is a black powder junior champion), there is no reason to have them. The easier it is to legally carry hand guns, the easier it is to obtain them illegally. We have a problem now with our Jamaican/Asian gangs obtaining hand guns from across the border. It’s just too easy.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Mom424: I completely agree with your views on handguns and “assault-type” rifles. They were designed and made for killing people. My hand guns are used as side arms during hunting. Any wounded animal can be very dangerous, and if you get close to them (claiming and tagging your kill) they can attack, having a side arm is a nice thing to have in this situation, though it is a very rare situation to begin with.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:57 am
The US has plenty of problems, but do you really think we’d have the highest total number or percentage in the world if every country out there truthfully reported their numbers?
You really think there are less total people imprisoned in China? Russia? North Korea?
Perhaps the solution is to just do what they do to criminals in most other countries, where “justice” is swift and final.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:02 am
“Many of you living outside the United States would not be eating bread if it weren’t for the wheat and grains exported from the United States…….oh and let’s not forget those delicious juicy beef steaks!!!”
otay – it cuts both ways. Many of you (in the US) wouldn’t be driving your SUV’s and trucks if it weren’t for the oil produced outside of the US. At the very least the cost would be prohibitive.
As for the beefsteaks…I think that Argentina, Australia, New Zealand etc. etc. are able to adequately compete in this area. But, yes, I do enjoy a Texas steak when I get the opportunity
April 8th, 2008 at 7:06 am
otay: America exports beef? In NZ we eat our own (and export the rest) and in the UK I eat British beef which is very high quality. I have never eaten American beef.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:09 am
Oh thank you, you have fucking scared the shit out of me, and im going to Rio in Brazil at the end of the year!!!
April 8th, 2008 at 7:10 am
mandy: just keep away from the bad bits
April 8th, 2008 at 7:13 am
Mom424: So it’s our fault that people in Canada are brekaing Canadian law? If illegal guns are crossing the boarder then take it up with YOUR customes or YOUR boarder enforcement agencies, don’t ask us to give up our freedoms just because you don’t like hand guns.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:13 am
DentShop:
Dented head perhaps? Come on. I am NO patriotic jingoist… but placing the US at #3 is just absurd. I’m all for honesty and admitting that we are one fucked up nation–we are. We’re a sick society in a lot of ways, and yes, much too freakin’ gun crazy. But NUMBER THREE on a list like this, ahead of places like Afghanistan… and on a list that leaves off HAITI? Come off it–that’s not just disingenuous, it’s childishly anti-American, playing fast and loose with the facts so the writer can make his/her “cool points” (it’s trendy to be not just anti-American these days, but *irrationally* anti-American)–and that kind of thing I do NOT like. It amounts to cant. And irrational, childish cant only ruins what is otherwise a good list.
Are there places in this continent-sized nation that I wouldn’t go? Sure. But they’re vastly in the minority in a land where *geographically,* one feels perfectly safe in about 95% of it. Don’t wander around certain sections of Detroit, for instance… or Philadelphia. But the same could be said for sections of Brindisi, in Italy, or up until just a few years ago, Marseilles in France. Or sections of certain cities in the UK.
No, the inclusion of the US in this list–let alone in the THIRD position, is just grossly silly and stupid, and only shows the list writer off as politically biased to the point where he/she doesn’t really care about weighing the truth in a considered way, but rather is far more interested in making a dishonest point. It gives me the feeling that DentShop wrote the entire list from the very beginning with the idea of scolding us Americans on our uncivilized behavior, and then just created a list to go around it, cloaking his/her intent (barely).
RUSSIA is FAR more dangerous than the United States for tourists, let alone its own citizens, for chrissakes.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:14 am
Mandysparky: Stick the tourist areas and you should be safe.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Wow! I live in the third most dangerous place on Earth! I guess I’d do just fine in Afghanistan. Maybe I’ll finally go live in Antarctica with the penguins.
Here’s a thought: it the US (where US Marines come from) is more dangerous than Somalia, why would Somalia be “too much for the Marines”?
April 8th, 2008 at 7:21 am
USA at number 3?
Where is France? I don’t see ‘youths’ rampaging through the streets burning over 100 automobiles every night in America.
Have you been to Russia? If you are on the streets after midnight, you likely to be relieved of your cellphone and cash. The good news is that you can buy your own phone back the next day down at the flea market.
Tibetan protesters might also disagree with this list. But you might have trouble picking them out in a crowd, since European governments are harassing them along the torch route and confiscating their t-shirts and banners.
I tell my friends to visit Europe sooner rather than later. Sharia law isn’t all that great for tourism…although it sounds like the author might feel ’safer’ under the Caliphate than that nasty American freedom.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:22 am
The U.S. at number 3 is pretty immature. Yeah, the “numbers don’t lie” but look at what is in your numbers. ‘Violent Crime’ reported in the U.S. is not the same as in other countries. Two guys fighting at a bar will get arrested and charged with assault– violent crime on the stats, but c’mon now…
If you beat your wife here, you go to jail, however you will go to jail if you *don’t* do it in the Middle East.
You also used automobile accidents and suicides to inflate your numbers. Except for the occasional maniac, accidents are accidents and have no bearing on crime stats. There again, ‘vehicular homicide’ is written down as a violent crime when someone is drunk, and while I’m not an advocate for drunk driving, I challenge you to find any ‘intent to harm’ in most of these cases. Avoidable, yes. Intentional, no.
I guess if you’re running a classification of *actual* death or injury without regard to intent, then perhaps your placement is correct, however, if it’s crime and random acts of violence, you are way off base.
Including Antarctica, however, throws this argument off. What’s the name of that island off Australia that is the exclusive home to some of the deadliest plants and animals in the world?
For that matter, nobody can survive for more than a minute or two without apparatus if they go more than an inch below the surface of any body of water. What’s the crime rate in Antarctica? What’s the guns to no guns ratio?
Is it more ‘dangerous’ to live in Florida with their hurricanes? Or California with thier cornucopia of disasters? Breadbasket with their tornadoes? Pacific islands with psunamis? Aids and Ebola in Africa?
Did you include these deaths in your stats?
The incarceration rate is high here because other countries EXECUTE or publicly torture and humiliate petty criminals. Or, the cops just beat them up and take their money and the crime is ever reported, though in reality you just got two for one.
Yes, we still have the death penalty, but even those people are housed for decades before the system cleans them out. In other countries that impose capital punishment, they knock them off the books pretty quickly.
Seems like you just have a healthy dislike for the U.S. to put us on here.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:23 am
The whole list was obviously planned around the US entry. Irresponsible liberal nonsense masquerading as information. I’ve yet to find out why liberals, who hate the US so much, don’t just go north to Canada. That place is more your style, eh?
April 8th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Geez: I am wondering if I ought to remove the US from the list even though I didn’t write it.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:26 am
One of the more worthless lists here, due to a pathetic biasness which lead to confusion around the terms “dangerous place”.
My reasons have already been posted by others (Randall).
I was going to take a vacation to Florida in the Summer, maybe I should go somewhere safer, like Afghanistan instead.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:27 am
I don’t get how you could feel more safe in Afghanistan than the United States.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:30 am
Awesome list. However, I would just like to point out one thing. The broad generalization of the US doesnt do us justice. Yes everything you listed is true, but most of what you pointed out is centralized within relatively small urban areas of our country. There are many other places a person could visit without any real threat of violence. For instance if you are in Watts or Compton you are much more likely to see a violent crime than if you were visiting a place just a few miles south like Newport or Huntington beach. Its a shame that the violent reputation of a small portion of our country makes the whole place look bad.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:31 am
“I am wondering if I ought to remove the US from the list even though I didn’t write it”
jfrater – dunno, depends on whether you want to take the heat or not if it is left on there.
However, I think every rational person reading this list will surely agree that the US shouldn’t be on it. As someone else said, it sould have been an interesting – though still controversial – “honorable mention” at best. I’m a little surprised at how calmly the American posters are reacting
Also, I am not sure how the criteria “dangerous” can be equitably applied in a list like this ?
April 8th, 2008 at 7:34 am
One question: Is Dentshop from the U.S.? Earth? Actually, I know the perception of America is that we are a rather violent culture (especially by directors like Lars Von Trier who makes many films deriding America but has never actually been here), but this is clearly our blood thirsty media and Hollywood sensationalism. Dentshop needs to see the movie God Grew Tired Us and consider revising his list.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:34 am
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/
The second amendment folks. read it and weep. the day they take our right to defend ourselves is the day this country becomes number one on the list. yes, its easy for criminals to get weapons here, but if you take away our own means of protection they will get them form other countries and then we will be f*cked because of all the wealth this country has to offer to poverty stricken people from around the globe.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:36 am
Well said Randall. Pipe bombs from right wing groups? What a crock. The last major publicized bombing event in the US was the Time Square bombing of a Marine recruiting station. Perpetrated no doubt by a radical left wing idiot. In my neck of the woods (NW), you have the stupid ELF movement (As if humans are some evil blight occupying the earth).
As for jfraters comment about SF which was generally positive (it is a great city), my only thought was that you were in a big city where some regions are less safe than others. I had similar comments made to me while in Paris.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:39 am
Sharki; I was illustrating a point, and it is a true one. Ease of access to handguns makes it easier for the criminals to obtain them illegally. I don’t dislike hand guns, they should be strictly controlled and used only at licensed venues (the gun club). If there are fewer hand guns in circulation there will be fewer available for the bad guys. Common sense.
That said, you are correct, our border security is a sham. We let the guns, Somali war lords, and Ex-South African human experimenters through, but we inform the CIA when one of our Citizens is ripe for kidnapping and whisking off to Egypt for interrogation/torture. It is shameful.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:40 am
US=Safest place on Earth. Period. I live in a city that has been called one of the supposed murder capitals of the country and I still have no qualms about going out late at night.
Also, I dont have to worry about suicide bombers at the market, I have fresh water to drink, and our protests tend to be peaceful (hello, France).
What I cant figure out is why other countries cant figure out how to live peacefully. We had a civil war, got through it, built our economy, and now I can live next to a Muslim, Jew, or Mormon and not worry about one of them starting a jihad on me, or I can live next to a Libertarian, Socialist, or Reformist and not worry about a bloody coup happening.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:43 am
i was expecting my country,
but now i feel so blessed.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:44 am
jfrater: I dont think that the US should be removed from the list, I just think it should be narrowed down to the places that are actually dangerous. Places where wearing the wrong thing in the wrong neighborhood will get you killed as opposed to areas where the only firearms are owned by people intending to shoot nothing more than deer or birds.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:45 am
I will never leave Canada!
April 8th, 2008 at 7:47 am
I have changed the list and replaced the USA with Russia. Though I see that the original list was likely to cause much debate. Alas.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:52 am
The United States exports alot of beef, more than i, myself realized. I am a nurse by profession, currently employed as a live-in, private duty nurse for a cattle rancher that was paralyzed from the neck down due to an ATV accident while rounding up some stray cattle. He is a top breeder of Black Angus cattle, and he is “age and source verified” to export his cattle to Japan….which is no small feat, as Japan is very tightly regulated as to what cattle they will import. The US has NO occurances of “Mad Cow Disease” that have ever orignated here. The few occurances that have been found here were imported from outside the US, most recently Canada.
Just a bit of trivia, lol: There are more cows in Montana than people…. true!
April 8th, 2008 at 7:52 am
jfrater: thank you for doing so… now we dont have to shoot at you and throw pipe bombs through your windows
.
^ sarcasm by the way
April 8th, 2008 at 7:53 am
your list is biased, judgmental, and narrow-minded which left absolutely no room for the redeeming qualities of these places. yes, these claims do hold some degree of truth in them but the way they were presented gave the impression that these places are hopeless hell-holes.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:53 am
JFRATER!!!!! what have you done!!!! editing a list that was so ripe for heated debate!!! And how is russia more dangerous? it wasn’t even on the list to begin with! Hell make it a top fifteen, include USA and the dishonorable mentions at least. don’t just change it at whim. holy crap…tyranny!!!!!
April 8th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Okay okay okay! I have now put Russia in position 10 (as it was number 11 previously) and have put the original USA item as a bonus so people can still read the original text. No more edits!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:01 am
ace: I was actually tempted to add a “on the bright side” section for each item to show some of the nice parts of each country (when possible). I decided to leave it as it was written by the submitter though.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:01 am
Wait, the USA was taken off jfrater? I live here and I guaruntee you a lot of major cities are very dangerous. New York, Los Angeles, San Diego, Chicago, etc. But crime rates are going down so I see why you did that. Well in Kentucky anyways.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:02 am
godmoding is bad. lol
April 8th, 2008 at 8:02 am
I wouldn’t change it either. As a US citizen I’ll defend everyone’s right to freely express their thoughts – first amendment baby. But they better be able to articulate the reasons for their arguments, and respond in a civil manner to any disagreements. Especially when the facts are grossly manipulated to make a point on cherished political assumptions. Let it stay – we’re big enough to be the world’s whipping boy, and then come to your aid both economically and militarily when your country is going to hell in a hand basket.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:02 am
“There are more cows in Montana than people”
otay – interesting. It’s kinda like the fact that there are around 10 sheep in New Zealand for every person (there’s some 45 million sheep). And as for the obligatory sheep-shagging jokes…forget it! Every NZ’er has heard ‘em all…more than once !
April 8th, 2008 at 8:02 am
jfrater: how dare you put the US back up there?!?! I should kill you!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:03 am
jfrater: That’s hard for Iraq, might as well say “It may be a dangerous hell-hole to go to, but hey, you can get a sweet tan for free!”
April 8th, 2008 at 8:04 am
I would love to travel the world, and yes, most of the places on this list are definately places to avoid. However, the US does not even remotely belong on this list. There is NO other country on this planet to which id rather be a citzen. I feel lucky and blessed to be a natural born citizen of the greatest country in the world….The United States of America!!!!
Ps – Yes, my opinion is obviously biased, but you couldnt pay me to live elsewhere.
One last note: Tourists to the United States are extremely safe here. Tourism boosts our economy and our arms are wide open to tourisim.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:06 am
“we’re big enough to be the world’s whipping boy, and then come to your aid both economically and militarily when your country is going to hell in a hand basket.”
Chaz – you mean you need a reason to offer military “aid” ? Gee, the people of Iraq would be glad to hear it
April 8th, 2008 at 8:06 am
jfrater: YES! USA! USA! what wait, a bonus!?! We deserve #10, I’d rather go to Russia than New York.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:07 am
jfrater:
I sympathize, pal. Not a nice position to be in. On the one hand, this is your site, and so these lists to SOME extent reflect upon you. On the other hand, censorship is never fun–unless you’re a total dick who enjoys silencing those who say the unpleasant things that need saying…
But in this instance, look….
The thing is, you know me by now, that I am no “America Always Right” type. Far from it. I spend more of my day bashing my own country than I’d care to admit (because it’s depressing). I’d even have no problem, therefore, with the US appearing on a list of dangerous places, if it had been done intelligently and honestly. A list of SOME length would possibly include it somewhere… certainly it’s a subjective call… but I could see it.
But ONLY with honesty and a clear desire on the part of the writer to keep to the facts and not slip over willy-nilly into bullshit land. And a list of TEN dangerous places that puts the US at #3, while leaving FAR WORSE places off the list—I mean, that’s just beyond the pale. As I said, it leaves me with the distinct feeling (I don’t see how it could be otherwise) that this list was written from the start to bash Americans—with the falsity of a list created around it—or else the list writer is some total kid who just doesn’t know any better. I doubt the latter, having read the list.
I don’t know how to advise you on this (not that you’re asking MY advice). It is, after all, just a list.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:07 am
im glad i live in california…even though it could be pretty dangerous as well
my family comes from el salvador and guatemala, but i am scared of experiencing the richness of my ancestors, for fear of being kidnapped, mugged, raped, or murdered
April 8th, 2008 at 8:07 am
kiwiboi – lol, ive heard em all too!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:09 am
well done jrafter you have bowed down to US pressure just like every Arab leader and every spineless western leader…
I live in south africa, and i must say its worse than the list describes it to be. I’ve holidayed in USA and Brazil and i must say at least u feel safe as a tourist in USA and Brazil, in this place tourists are easy targets.
That being said, with a bit of common sense you can have a brilliant holiday in SA, just fly to cape town and the kruger national park and stay THE HELL AWAY FROM JOHANNESBURG(which is where i live…)
April 8th, 2008 at 8:10 am
I completely agree with this whole list.As a native of South America myself, i wasnt surprised that Brazil and Columbia were on the list.Brazils a paradise if you stay by the beaches, or to a lesser extent, in the rainforest.If you’re European or American, god help you if yougo into a bad area though.I was fine, but there are actually sometimes guys just walking around with AR-15s and such.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:12 am
kakazed: I have? I thought I was modifying the list to make it more accurate – the US shouldn’t be in the top 10 – so I added it as a bonus as people had already read it and were debating it.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:14 am
pwnstar:They walk around with AR-15s?!? In the USA you’d be in jail after three steps out the door!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:14 am
The US is not all that dangerous. I have been to NYC countless times and have never witnessed or been victim of a crime.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Randall: I think the compromise of leaving it on the list for reading but excluding it from the top 10 is the best I can do really
I removed an item from another list once and it ultimately upset more people that I changed it. It was a tough call with this one for me – I really was in two minds about removing that entry before I posted it – but I thought I would gauge the reaction. 74 comments before 8:15am says a lot
April 8th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Csimmons:Yep, but Peruians are safe from most kidnapping/mugging, theyd rather do that to their own kind then us.oh lord and i havent even started on Columbia.Back when i still lived in Peru(I sort of migrate back and forth a few years at a time)we had a few Columbians in our town, because Peru, like most northwestern SA countrys, we dabble a bit in cocaine too.And they are some crazy bastards, I’ll tell you that.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Chaz sounds like the Miss South Carolina chick (sure everyone knows who im talking about
) living in their own little dream world. I dont understand where Americans get this idea about their country being magnanimous. I agree that America is the most powerful country in the world but please dont be so obsessed by your country to believe that it is motivated by anything other than greed
Sorry but its true. But i guess you dont reach that position in any other way
April 8th, 2008 at 8:30 am
jfrater; Glad you took my advice
It didn’t belong on the list except as a bonus. You actually have a higher chance of being beaten up in New Zealand or Canada. The ridiculously high murder rate in the USA skews the stats. I just betcha that Second Amendment thing in the Constitution is responsible for the disparity; that and the ghettos and the gang culture they inspire.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Wow Jamie, this is quite something, to say the least.
Just wow.
First of all: I’m Colombian. And I live in Colombia.
So…
NUMBER 2!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Seriously? RIGHT UP THERE NEXT TO IRAQ????
FRICKIN IRAQ?????
That was quite a shock. So I live in a country that’s the most dangerous in the world, were it not for a country currently in a frickin WORLD CONFLICT.
Let me clear it up for the rest of the world: Colombia is mostly jungle and mountains and coasts, all very beautiful, but, believe it or not, it’s also peppered with a handful of cities that have nothing to envy from, say, Chicago. I live in one of those cities, Bogota, and the neighborhood I live at is perfectly safe. I have all the commodities you can ask for: a nice peaceful 5th floor apartment, clean tap water, Internet, and even Satellite TV. Not too shabby for the second worst country to live in the world, huh?
In other words, I don’t think Colombia is worse than Sudan, Somalia, and definitely not Afghanistan. Those places are hell, there are true humanitarian crises there, and it’s getting worse by the day. Those are the countries you see in the news almost everyday, with unrestrained violence, famine, and worse things I wouldn’t want to imagine. I guess I shouldn’t speak for those countries, but I do speak for mine.
Colombia is beautiful, as you said. And yes, it might be dangerous at rural areas and the jungle, with guerrillas and paramilitary groups stalking small towns at certain areas of the country. But Bogota, the capital city, is not even close to what is happening in Baghdad right now. Bogota and other major cities are not darn warzones. Nor is there massive famine in the streets. You get my point. Just run-of-the-mill, stay-out-of-dark-alleys-and-red-light-districts kind of cities. IT’S NICE TO LIVE HERE!
I thought this list was going to be “the most geographically dangerous places in the world”, like antartica, and next to a volcano or something. But seriously, I’d rather live at my 20°C cozy apartment and watch TV in bed than live in Antartica and die of hypothermia within a week.
If anyone from Sudan or Somalia can say the same, then I stand corrected.
No hard feelings, though.
By the way, changing USA was a cop-out. I guess it’s more scary to live there than I thought, huh?
April 8th, 2008 at 8:33 am
jfrater:
You did good, Jamie, though I feel no less uncomfortable about it than you do. I totally understand.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:36 am
More scary to live there than I thought, because you feel the need to refrain to call your country dangerous out of threats of people there, I mean. Kbye
April 8th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Really? Wow.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:39 am
AT86:
Come now… the comment by Chaz that *I* read was nicely balanced, calm, and fair. YOU, on the other hand, sound over-the-top and ill-informed.
The US motivated ONLY by greed? Please. At times, sure. Much of the time, 80% or so, maybe. Maybe more. But GREED didn’t motivate the US to go to war finally against Nazi Germany and Japan. GREED didn’t inspire the US to follow up that war with the Marshall Plan, which rebuilt Europe.
We are a schizo culture. We like to help people… and at the same time, steal from their back pockets when they’re not looking. Call us on that, but don’t skip over the whole truth while doing it.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:49 am
RE: #69 Randall – Well said. This country is very far from ideal, god knows we have more than our share of problems. But over all, the United States is probably one of the safest places to live in the world.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Randall:
As far as i remember Pearl Harbour triggered a US response in the second world war. one of the most sophisticated armed forces in the world wasnt quite going to retreat in its shell after being attacked. the us involvement before that was purely superficial
Jews have always been influential in the usa so there was no surprise in them declaring war on germany.
and with there being no chinese or indian economy at that point in time, the us couldnt exactly sit back and watch all its allies get destroyed.
so again im sorry to say none of these reactions were in any form utilitarian.
in my own view, i wouldnt expect any country to put itself under risk (financially or militarily) unless there was an obvious benefit there.
and i wouldnt have brought up this point if i hadnt read someone try and portray the US as the world’s watchdog.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Mom424: You do realize that taking away the 2nd Amendment would lead to alot more murder, don’t you?
April 8th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Kreachure: I don’t doubt that almost every country on this list has safe places in it for sure – the list might have been slightly better if it had focused on the specific regions (as someone above suggested) rather than just lumping the entire country in.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:57 am
jayfray: i thought you said that the author would be on here to defend his position?
probably not interested because his position has been exposed, left wing nut. even the typical lefties on here have distanced themselves from this sort of over the top bashing. guess he has never had apple pie or been to a baseball game.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:58 am
jfrater: I guess it also depends on your personal definition of dangerous. What is in dager: my life, my money, my freedom, my job, my mind? The US would be number one in some categories and certainly near the bottom of others.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Good list, but there were a couple instances of sentences not making much sense.
Some editing work would have helped.
“Mass murder and mayhem compete with environmental problems are the biggest headaches for the people of Burundi.”
April 8th, 2008 at 9:07 am
AT86:
You’re clearly a semi-illiterate bigot who A) knows little of the facts of history and is influenced in what little he DOES know by his bigotry B) doesn’t even use the word “utilitarian” correctly (in the context in which it’s used) C) has no grasp of logic—OF COURSE no one takes a risk *without some kind of BENEFIT* you moron–the question is who it benefits and HOW it benefits them… D) you also expose yourself as a fraud, a bigot and an utter asshole by your offensive statement about “jews being influential” in the US.. and E) I’m not at all bothered by calling you these names BECAUSE of that disgusting statement.
You don’t belong in civil society. And as ever, I’m appalled by the fact that I have to share mine with people who say the shit you said.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Randall: I notice it has also become quite fashionable in other countries to have this irrational hatred of America. I never really considered myself a patriot, but the amount of anti-American rhetoric I see all the time from some snobbish, arrogant Europeans really polarizes me. I think it’s quite odd that many of those countries whose population professes to hate us actually depend quite a bit on our financial and military support.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Not sure who the Miss South Carolina chick is, but let the record show I have plenty of concerns about my country. There are indeed troubling levels of violence, a saddening number of kids being raised in single parent homes without the influence of fathers, and a frustrating tendency to allow the mind-numbing influences of wealth and entertainment to define one’s life. I am concerned about the tendency in both political parties to destroy the foundations of our constitution, the increasing virulence in our civil discourse, and the unfortunate tilt towards the politicization of all things.
That said – loose use of the facts in the original list was frustrating. Even the picture is manipulative. Hardly do you see cops walking around in full swat gear – even in the big cities. I can’t pretend to know why that picture was chosen, but it inadvertently conveys the idea that our police force has had to militarize to keep the “violent” population in check. For what it’s worth, I’ve seen similarly dressed law enforcement in the Metro in Paris (a lovely city by the way, and a lovely country that I like to visit often).
I hardly think that the US response to disasters and conflicts is motivated by greed as AT86 would conclude – at least for the average citizen I know this is not the case. There is indeed a largeness of heart that compels many US citizens to send cash, resources, and even individuals using their vacation time to respond to needs around the world. But I’m also not naive enough to know that many others on our globe do the same. In fact I’ve argued loudly with many of my friends and countrymen that we don’t always do enough, and that as a percentage of GDP what Americans give is often less than other countries.
Of course I wasn’t so sure what to make of AT86’s ad hominem argument. In some ways the list (like most of the lists) is open to lots of good subjective debate as Kreachure’s post makes evident. Here’s an individual apparently living in the 2nd most dangerous place on the planet, and feeling quite safe. You could probably find one or two Iraqi’s that would say the same . . .
April 8th, 2008 at 9:20 am
Yeah Baby! We’re Number one! We’re Number One!
April 8th, 2008 at 9:22 am
DiscHuker: I suggested he be here – he may be in a different time zone though – I am not sure where he is (though I am guessing it ISN’T the US)
April 8th, 2008 at 9:23 am
wow, i was late in the comments. no fair!
anyway, yes numbers DO in fact lie. statistics can be very tricky.
“200 million guns in the USA”- sounds kinda scary. but we don’t know who owns these guns. gun clubs? civilians owning them legally? criminals?
if this had read “200 million criminals with guns,” i’d be nervous.
“leads all nations with incarcerations now standing at 2.3 million” -is this a per capita number, or just a straight number? we have a huge population, way bigger than many countries. of course we’re bound to have more criminals?
a little more perspective on these numbers:
“50 murders a day” = .000016% of the population (x364= 18,200 a year)
“5000 people die a year in truck crashes, about 6000 pedestrains die on the streets and 31000 people end their own lives” = .014% of the population.
so… more people die by accident every year (or because they want to, which i’m not exactly against) than are murdered.
and too whoever said NY was a dangerous city: no, it’s not. it’s one of the safest big cities and i would much rather be in new york than LA, chicago, detroit, miami, houston, or any other city. Buffalo, NY is more dangerous than nyc, and newburgh, ny (a city of about 60,000 residents) is more dangerous than NYC.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Randall
wow. i have to agree that your last argument belongs in the same “civil” society that you do.
i am not sure exactly what has offended you that much but i certainly dont see anything i could possibly respond to.
if as you say my facts are wrong, id rather you use the opportunity to correct me. instead all i have got from this is a list of expletives which make me wonder whether you understand the word utilitarian.
as for what my point is, i do not claim that every individual american is greedy but what i disagreed with is the “we are always treated wrong while we try and do good” kind of sentiment that Chaz made in #62.
frankly im quite surprised with this response that i have just typed. it is more for the sake of everyone else. Randall there are so many more things id rather say to you…..
April 8th, 2008 at 9:31 am
I completely agree with you downhighway. I have been to NYC countless times, and I have never witnessed a crime or been victim of a crime.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:33 am
well i have witnessed crimes there, but i don’t think underage drinking and other things like that count, especially because i was part of them
April 8th, 2008 at 9:35 am
“Nearly 5000 people die a year in truck crashes, about 6000 pedestrains die on the streets and 31000 people end their own lives.”
I thank God I can visit any other country in the world and not die in a car accident or crosswalk or commit suicide. Evil USA.
On one hand we’re calling some countries on the list dangerous because I have a high probabilty of being mugged, kidnapped or gunned down due to civil unrest, but in the USA entry I have a chance of being one of 42,000 people to get hit by a car or truck or feel the need to commit suicide.
How is this not still a biased tone even it was moved off the list?
April 8th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Interesting list but obviously biased and with an agenda. Too bad it could have been a good list.
When I reading the description of the US and Iraq I thought the list was written by.
Barbra Streisand Rob Reiner Jane Fonda, Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin, Susan Sarandon & Michael Moore.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:42 am
It doesn’t matter whether you are George Bush, Pele or Chuck Norris – you are not safe in Iraq.
Best line from this list!
Good list.
Enjoyed reading it!
Totally agree with most of them.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:43 am
I do have a couple questions though, just questions and not instigations for fighting.
When were posting this list from Dent, how could you not see the overly biased tone used in the USA entry that was not used in the other countries? Everyone here jumped on it immediately so I just curious if you missed it or felt that it would be better to spur debate.
How could you post a list that you weren’t willing to stand behind? This refers to the post editing done to the list. Why would you not have rearranged it to begin with? That answer probably will tie in directly to the first question.
I’m not trying to criticize you, I’m just curious about how this all works. I know that you said you told the author that he could expect a reaction but as the person running the site do ever ask the author to redo aspects of their lists when they contain what everyone here feels is an overly biased judgment concerning a topic.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:43 am
Dont think you should have removed the US due to adult babies
April 8th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Qlovelee: It wasn’t removed because people were offended, it was removed because it wasn’t factual. Saying that you would be safer in Afghanistan or Somalia than the US is false. Violent crime against tourists (and natives, for that matter) is much higher per capita in those countries than the US.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I’m feeling that maybe i live a pretty safe and sheltered life here in rural USA. I do not lock my doors at night, which is not out of the norm for where i live. I can drive my truck to Walmart and leave it running (in the winter) while i run in for one or two items, knowing that it will be exactly where i left it.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Although the USA is ranked way too high on this list, I’m glad Dentshop included it. The debate it sparked is an important one, much more important than an accurate ranking of all the countries in the world. If we only considered first world industrialized nations, how high would the US be?
Dentshop was also correct to include traffic accidents and other causes of death. Our roads and bridges are crumbling, we refuse to pay the money to fix them, so the death toll climbs. We ignore environmental concerns, particularly in regards to our water and air, so we get sick. Our health care is a disaster, one in six people don’t have insurance, so their lives are at risk. If you’re an American soldier, your government is more likely to put you in harm’s way, same thing for mine workers or anybody who has a dangerous occupation.
In other words, the primary function of government is to ensure public safety. If you have a government like ours, one that is committed to Reaganism and the concept that government should do as little as possible, let’s face it folks, your, I’m mean our lives are at risk. I believe our average lifespan is at or near the bottom of all industrialized first world countries. Doesn’t that mean the US is a dangerous place to live. It’s no more pleasant to die in a car accident or from cancer than from a terrorist’s bomb.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:06 am
“Saying that you would be safer in Afghanistan or Somalia than the US is false”‘
Not from where I’m standing
April 8th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Qlovelee – United States had no business being on that list to begin with, has nothing to do with “adult babies”. I agree with Randall, we are a screwed up country, however the theme of this list is “most dangerous places on Earth”. The United States is by far, among the most safe places to be on this lovely planet of ours!!! I have a greater chance of having a dangerous encounter with a wild animal, than another human being!
April 8th, 2008 at 10:15 am
There are many things in the US would have liked to see. Maybe take a drive across on a long vacation or something, seeing all the great sights. But now that I’ve grown up and looked around me in the world, I realize it is not worth the risk. The US really haven’t got much to offer, it is just another middle class country – albeit one with a really big military unit trying to make them look like a big boy in the sandbox – and to be honest I’d rather go somewhere less fascist, more civilized, and where a tourist can go out after dark without fear.
Yes, it is ‘popular’ these days to bash the US, but maybe you people who get all up in arms about it need to start to take a long hard look at your country and wonder WHY it is that people look down on the way you do things. I know a lot of nice Americans, tellingly most of them wish they could move out.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:16 am
yogi: are you really complaining that if you are a soldier or mine worker or “anybody who has a dangerous occupation” that you should expect to work without danger?
are you blaming the government when someone in a DANGEROUS job meets with a DANGEROUS situation?
one bridge collapses last year and “our bridges are crumbling”? tell me how many other bridges have collapsed causing death recently.
we don’t fix the roads “so the death toll climbs”. please site the number of accidents and deaths CAUSED by a shoddy road.
perhaps the 1 person who doesn’t have insurance should GO GET insurance instead of waiting for the government to provide it for them.
i thought this was an interesting comments section until i saw this sort of drivel.
don’t just spout your leftist leanings without backup.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Yogi: I don’t disagree with the US being an honorable mention on the list, or an addendum as is, but to say that because some of our bridges and roads are in relatively poor condition (the countries on the list are far worse about road maintanance and safety than we are), or because the US has been slow about reacting to environmental health concerns that don’t pose an immediate and imminent threat to our lives, or because we have soldiers stationed in dangerous places throughout the world (and in countries where state military and paramilitary groups engage in as much or more violence than our soldiers), or because Americans are fat and unhealthy because of a national trend of eating a lot and exercising little, to say that we deserve to be among the most dangerous countries in the world is asinine. Call me crazy, but things like kidnapping, torture, rape and murder pose much more of a radical and immediate threat to life, health, and security than potholes, high gas emissions, and occasional foreign skirmishes.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:18 am
frank: well that is the beauty of freedom, they can do whatever they wish. tell your friends that if they need help packing to give us a call. i’m sure the insurgants in iraq or the gorillas in columbia will help unload the truck.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Somehow the thought of taking a holiday in Burundi never crossed my mind. I wonder why?
April 8th, 2008 at 10:22 am
AT86:
“You’re not sure what offended me”? I spelled it out for you.
“Jews have always been influential in the US.” You said that. (And that, you added, is why we fought the Nazis–it was no surprise to you, seeing how we’re so “jew influenced”).
You don’t see how that’s offensive? Bigoted? Incorrect? STUPID?
I won’t waste another moment on you. Go away and don’t bother responding.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:22 am
I always find it interesting when, because of some recent highly publicized bridge accident in the US, everyone assumes that our bridges and roads are crumbling. Bridges have been falling down all around the world but when they happen here, we hear about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_disasters#Disasters_in_date_order
Also, since when was mining a dangerous occupation especially in the US? It’s dangerous everywhere and when accidents happen here you can bet that people like OSHA are going to be there to find out what went wrong and penalize those who allowed it to happen if indeed it was negligence. If I worked in that field I would much rather work in the US where there are safety regulations in place then, say, China who frequently seems to have large mine explosions killing hundreds.
According to the BBC China’s coal mines are the world’s most dangerous, with more than 3,000 deaths reported every year.
Being that I’ve had some experience in construction I can tell you we have some pretty tight safety regulations set forth by the local, state and federal government and when accidents happen it’s not the government coming in and saying to hell with the workers, it’s the workers/contractors saying to hell with the rules. When the dust settles it’s the government that fines them or shuts them down so they don’t do it again.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:23 am
DiscHuker: The dollar is so ridiculously low that they can’t afford to move. Could you? And seriously, imagine the US as being undesirable for them since they want to move out… what makes you think they would move to another wartorn third world country? I am pretty sure they would be smart enough to move to a place that is a bit more stable, like anywhere else in the world. Europe is always a good bet, since the Euro has been a stronger currency than the dollar for the bast couple of years it shows financial stability at least.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Dischuker, first of all I wasn’t complaining, I was making an objective observation. What I expect from my government is to enforce the laws protecting workers’ safety. Bush put an anti-labor mine owner in charge of mine safety, so now mine workers are more likely to die. Bush decided to send our troops to Iraq without properly armored vehicles, and didn’t issue the marines helmet liners so their lives are more at risk. Bush decided to appoint Michael “You’re Doing a Heck Of A Job” Brown to head FEMA, we know how that turned out.
As for the roads and bridges. You are apparently the only person in the country that doesn’t understand how important it is that we begin to repair our infrastructure. I don’t have time to research this for you, get off your lazy ass and look up the numbers for yourself. It wasn’t just the one bridge in Minnesota.
Dischuker, you are a foolish man who puts your fellow Americans at risk with your vote and your anti-social attitude. I bet you’re a lousy, agressive driver as well. So answer the question I posed. Considering only first world countries, where does the US rank in terms of danger?
April 8th, 2008 at 10:47 am
I’m wondering if maybe DentShop uses another name here….. My personal opinion, if it even matters… Don’t post a list like this if you are not willing to stand up to the heat it will generate. Pathetic!
April 8th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Good thing you have that “by submitting you give listverse.com permission to reproduce…” clause at the bottom of submissions, Jamie.
This list would be a bit more fair if we listed cities versus countries. As 81. Kreachure said, most of his/her country is nice. I have no idea what percentage of Iraqi towns have murder issues, but Baghdad is pretty intense. Put those numbers against most of the cities in America? I don’t think even St. Louis or Detroit could match them.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:49 am
I find it funny that Antartica is on here, I guess it makes sense due to the conditions, but if global warming keeps up, it might uncover a vacation paradise
April 8th, 2008 at 10:49 am
randall man you’re such a complete moron.
what i meant by jews infuenced is that america had a jewish population that it cared for.
therefore they jumped in.
its like saying british had an english population, thus english influenced.
dear god. america has one of the largest jewish population in the world. why wont it try to help? and get your language right mate. its “spelt” not “spelled”. i have to retort to such things because you’re acting so incredibly idiotic.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:51 am
The USA (specifically New York City) IS one of the most dangerous places on Earth, in my opinion. If you think about it, the USA is ALWAYS the target of super-villains. Alien invasions and monster attacks are regular occurrences. And it is where major catastrophes/Armageddon strikes first! The people must be living in fear everyday.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:52 am
AT86: Wow, you just insulted the granddaddy Randall, prepare to get burned.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:52 am
AT86, my shotgun was used for hunting. Its people like you who automatically think “Oh no, he’s got a gun so he’s out to kill people”. Also, it was a Christmas present, not a birthday present. I’ve known many people throughout my life who own guns yet they aren’t killers. I find it fascinating that people like you think that removing guns from the hands of law abiding citizens are somehow going to convince the criminals to not use guns. Are you that naïve? It’s funny, knives aren’t allowed in prisons yet I hear of people getting stabbed all the time in prison.
Lastly, during elementary school my class was required to take a hunters safety course which includes gun safety. I’ve been around guns my entire life and know how to handle them. So I agree with you, I’d rather someone like me own a gun rather than someone like you, AT86, since you act like you don’t know which end is the dangerous end.
Here is a statistic for you; in 2005 there were 43,510 traffic fatalities, of which 17,602 were alcohol related, yet there were 12,682 violence related gun deaths. I say get rid of cars and drinking alcohol.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Frank and Dischuker, the political battle in the United States pretty much boils down to this; one side wants the US to be more like Canada and Europe, one side wants the US to be more like Mexico and South America. One side wants to protect and expand the middle-class, one side wants no middle-class at all.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:54 am
nuglyman:I’m not sure that would sit well with oil and car companies and every beer company
April 8th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Yogi:You pretty much nailed it, but there’s one side that wants the US to be like Victorian times with the unsexiest TV ever.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:57 am
“Club Med” Antarctica?
April 8th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Well, we are getting screwed by the oil companies, foreign or domestic. I don’t want to hear the debate about how CHina is a growing economy which is why gas is so expensive. I just find it funny how the oil companies, who are “barely making it”, are making huge profits every quarter.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Oh, and I drive a good Japanese car (Honda).
April 8th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Like everything, lets not get a wrong idea of the whole just because of some parts. Rio and Sao Paulo (not PAOLO) are dangerous cities, on some neighborhoods. Rio’s south zone is safe and very beaultiful, but north zone really not that good… and piranhas? how’s that?
April 8th, 2008 at 11:02 am
AT86, you don’t know what the Hell you are talking about. The US didn’t get into the war with Germany because of our Jewish population. The prevailing attitude in America during the Thirties was virulently anti-Semitic. Henry Ford, Charles Limburgh, Father Coughlin, and the Bush family were all staunch supporters of Nazi Germany. Before Pearl Harbor, the country was pretty evenly split between those that favored Germany and those who favored England.
Open a history book for crying out loud and stop believing everything you read on the internet.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:03 am
VChaz – you mean you need a reason to offer military “aid” ? Gee, the people of Iraq would be glad to hear it
Kiwiboi- they were, i was there, and they still are. If you dont beleive me, go to iraq, and ask the first citizen you see.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Heres a little “food for thought”. I graduated from high school in 83. It was common for us to take guns to school (never took them in the building). Hunting coyotes and other “scavenger” animals was something we would do after school for fun. It beneficial to the ranchers as well as fun! BTW, i drove my own car to school…obviously a gun would not be allowed on the bus!
April 8th, 2008 at 11:11 am
I live in Brasil, in Rio de Janreiro we have a joke:
The red signal is to recommend stoping, not demand.Because if you passes too much time in the signal you are robbed
April 8th, 2008 at 11:13 am
otay, I graduated in 86 in Mississippi. We weren’t allowed to bring guns onto campus. We couldn’t even bring a pocket knife but I did anyway, mainly to stick it to the man. I will say though that even if a kid did bring a gun to school, it would probably be his (or her) shotgun since he (or she) probably came straight from the deer camp to school.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Chesty-Puller – so tell me…what was the reason for the US invasion of Iraq ?
April 8th, 2008 at 11:14 am
AT86:
Don’t pretend you didn’t say what you said. It doesn’t sound like English is a second language for you—so there’s no excuse saying something like “Jews have always been influential in the usa so there was no surprise in them declaring war on germany.”
If you want to back off now and say you didn’t mean that to sound vaguely anti-semitic and bigoted, then do so. Because I’m telling you it DID come off that way. And I’m quite sure I wouldn’t be the only one to think so. And no, I’m not Jewish, nor am I overly-sensitive to this sort of thing. I’m not the PC type.
“Jewish influence” was NOT any kind of major–let alone a minor–factor in our entry into WWII against Nazi Germany. A) Nazi Germany declared war ON THE UNITED STATES after congress declared war on Japan. B) We were assisting Britain and Russia in their war against Germany BEFORE the declaration, because Germany was seen as a THREAT to our country and to our CIVILIZATION in general—not because “the jews” wanted us to fight.
I’m a moron? You repeatedly make yourself unintelligible and I still can’t put a proper sentence together, “mate.” And OVER HERE we say “spelled,” not “spelt,” by the way.
If you feel you’ve been misunderstood, it’s your own fault, not mine… but you were wrong in your original assertions anyway–you know absolutely nothing about history if you think the US entered WWII strictly for its own self-aggrandizing reasons.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:17 am
kiwiboi: It was because of 9/11 but it seems that now it’s for oil, I hope it’s still for 9/11 and avenging those deaths, but if it’s for oil, I’m moving to Europe.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:18 am
First, AT86 spelt is not the correct word. Spelt is a grain. Spelled is a past tense verb.
Now that we have that out of the way. This list is terrible.
The general, most dangerous places on Earth is a bad idea. I’d rather be in Basra than in Antartica, the middle of any Ocean, desert or mountain range.
Next, you cannot clump countries as a whole. Columbia, even Iraq has it’s safe places.
Lastly, while I think it is fun that you included USA because of all the debate. If you truly believe that the US one of the most dangerous places on Earth, you have a very twisted perception of reality. The fact the 31,000 people kill themselves does not make the US dangerous. What qualifies the US on this list would also force the majority of the UN onto this list.
I am pretty surprised that JFrater allowed this list on. I’m sure his intentions were for debate, but this list is clearly biased. If the poster, DentShop, were to use any quality source, I would accept, however, he does not. He simply uses his own bias (based on his Anti-American bias, I am surprised he didn’t put Israel on here).
Also, where is DentShop? He needs to answer for his list.
Cough Cough Coward
April 8th, 2008 at 11:19 am
AT86: See, don’t fuck with Randall.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Dan: I seriously doubt Jamie is anti-american, and don’t you ever diss the man who makes the lists.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:22 am
“It was because of 9/11″
Csimmons – no, that tells me nothing. I’m looking for a more specific reason?
April 8th, 2008 at 11:23 am
yogi: i’m not asking you for stats because i’m too lazy to look them up. i’m asking for stats for you to PROVE your assertions. i made no sweeping claims about america’s infrastructure.
as far as your question, i have no idea where the US ranks. this is your “belief”. you back it up.
but you are right, i am an agressive driver. but i got skills, baby.
as a side note, do you actually think that the decision about helmet liners went all the way up the chain of command to the president? or is it just more fun to blame the president for it?
April 8th, 2008 at 11:25 am
standing aside of the huge arguements, 10 or 15 years ago, Peru would have been on this list for sure.The Shining Path were a horrible group, and the stupid Japanese president at the time did some heavy handed stuff to bring them down.You couldnt even wear a red shirt without being beaten.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:25 am
kiwiboi: Well, we went to Iraq to basically avenge the deaths that happened on 9/11, it was either that or to get more oil.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:30 am
Another can of worms opened, hehe!
I’m late to the party, I missed the whole “list changing” debacle, and I haven’t read all the comments, so here’s a few thoughts anyway.
The US was on this list at number three? Really? Wow. JFrater, thanks for editing the list. I know you encourage user-submitted lists, but I don’t think it’s fair that someone would use this site for their own personal prejudices. Especially since you’re the one who owns and runs the site, what is posted here (at least on the list side, not so much the user comments) reflects on you.
The US as a bonus seems fair enough, there are places where it’s not too safe, every place has that. Some places have it more than others. It’s about traveling safe. Don’t go into dark alleys at night, stay on main roads unless you’re traveling with someone you trust. USE YOUR BRAIN! Don’t go planning a trip to the Middle East or Russia, and don’t go thinking it’s a good idea to visit big cities like Chicago or LA and wander around the ghettos there. DUH!
Oh yeah, I like that Burundi is on the list only because it made me think of Eddie Izzard. XD (Mad love to anyone else who thought of that bit while reading that!)
April 8th, 2008 at 11:31 am
“spelt is not the correct word. Spelt is a grain. Spelled is a past tense verb.”
Dan – not quite. *Spelt* is just as correct as *spelled*. The former is more prevalent in British usage, the latter in American. They are both right.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Csimmons: I know Jamie is NOT Anti-American. I’ve been coming here for close to 9 months now.
I was saying DentShop appears to be:
“If the poster, DentShop, were to use any quality source, I would accept, however, he does not. He simply uses his own bias (based on his Anti-American bias, I am surprised he didn’t put Israel on here).” He is DentShop
I also said (with reference to Jamie) “I’m sure his intentions were for debate”
Dan
April 8th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Dan, why shouldn’t Jamie allow this list? It’s a damn sight more interesting than a list of the safest places to live. Perhaps safety is overrated anyway. I was talking with my father about Norway( my great grandfather was born there), saying how it is probably the best place in the world to live. He laughed, having been there numerous times, then he told me I would die from boredom if I lived in Norway.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Really sorry to double post. I made a typo on my last one.
Jamie/JFrater is cool. He likes America. He is NOT Anti-American.
Dan
April 8th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Chesty-Puller – so tell me…what was the reason for the US invasion of Iraq ?
Umm maybe to overthrow, a ruthless dictator who for the past 40 years, was raping, murdering, and supressing the people of iraq, not too mention violating the agreement that was arranged by the UN the last time he got froggy?
April 8th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I am 100% red blooded American, and i want to believe that what we are doing in Iraq is the right thing, and that Iraq will be benefitted the most by the outcome. I also find it a little ironic that “Baby Bush” finished what “Daddy Bush” started in the ’90s…… coincidence??? hmmmmm.
PS – I do realize that if i were in another country and made a comment like this about my country’s leaders, could have nasty if not fatal consequences!
BTW – it is NOT my belief, i just find it to be an interesting tid bit.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:45 am
I agree that some parts of the US can be dangerous. If you’re stupid about it.
I’m a 24 year-old woman, and was born and raised in a nice family community about 30 minutes south of Los Angeles. I have spent many nights walking the streets of Hollywood from bar to bar, and I have NEVER had any problems. I feel rather safe there, actually.
I choose not to walk the alleyways crowded with homeless people alone, flashing expensive jewelry. I do not strut through gang territory proclaiming my allegiance to rival gangs.
My father is an LAPD officer approaching retirement. He could write a book about the dangers of the streets. But my point is this: if you’re looking for trouble, you will most definitely find it. But if you’re just a normal person out for nothing more than a good time, you’ll be fine.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:47 am
You’re a nice kid, csimmons.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:51 am
“Chesty-Puller – so tell me…what was the reason for the US invasion of Iraq ?
Umm maybe to overthrow, a ruthless dictator who for the past 40 years, was raping, murdering, and supressing the people of iraq, not too mention violating the agreement that was arranged by the UN the last time he got froggy?”
Ha. Ha ha ha ha ha… HA HA HA HA HA HA… HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! Oh god… I can’t…. stop…. laughing… HA HA HA HA HA!!!! Ha ha ha ha. Ha. Ha ha. Heh. ha ha heh…
Oh… *cough*… sorry… you were serious.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Good point Marcy, any place can become a dangerous place if you don’t use your head and practice good common sense! walk with a purpose (like you are supposed to be there) and don’t draw attention to yourself. If your actions make you stand out, you make yourself visible to “less than nice people” that will take advantage of your situation.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:56 am
excuse me…. i meant to say MAY take advantage of your situation, not WILL.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Wow… I won’t comment on the choices of this list… But in terms of grammar and its attempt to use intelligent vocabulary, this list SUCKED. did anyone else notice that? usually these lists are pretty eloquent but this one really was hard to read. If Microsoft Word underlines something in Green, there’s a reason buddy.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Where’s Mexico? Well, Mexico is dangerous for journalists, cool fact, Mexico is actually the most dangerous place in the world to be a journalist.
I’m Mexican, so I’m ashamed of this fact. Sad.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
thank you randall, I learned my lesson after arguing over Guns N’ Roses.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Dre: I don’t think Jamie uses M Word to post these lists. That’s probably why.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
“Oh… *cough*… sorry… you were serious.”
Randall – dude, you stole my thunder. I was gonna go on about chasing Al Quaeda, WMD, etc. etc. All of which were, of course, a sham.
But – hats off to you – your response was spot on!
April 8th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Kiwiboi: Yeah, you really can’t argue with Randall’s response, mine sounds kind of retarded after reading his.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Otay: My opinion stands. The list was created based on someones gathering of facts and opinions. Either you can respect it and appreciate it or not. I’m just basically saying it did’t and shouldn’t have been changed because others cant handle it. Point Blank.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
I have yet to see Randall post a comment that he cannot back up with facts. I won’t mess with Randall either! lol
April 8th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
“mine sounds kind of retarded after reading his.”
Csimmons – forget about it!
It was unfair of me to respond to your genuine posting with a question that was waiting for (and expecting) the foolish response that Chesty-Puller eventually came through with.
And no, you are definitely *not* retarded
April 8th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
“Militias, hate groups and other right wing radicals all spread their message of violence and are known to throw around the odd pipe-bomb”
What a bunch of bologna.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
“The list was created based on someones gathering of facts and opinions.” Putting the USA on that list was PURELY a biased opinion….NOT fact! Facts and statistics alone remove the US from that list. Point Blank.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
“If Microsoft Word underlines something in Green, there’s a reason buddy.”
and
“I don’t think Jamie uses M Word to post these lists”
Jamie is old-skool. He uses Wordstar on his Commodore PET.
*Everything* is green on that puppy
April 8th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
And if people are going to get mad over a such an innocent website then maybe they need to log off and go outside and play.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Don’t like my opinion? “Say hello to my little friend!”
April 8th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
go outside and play? Maybe its too dangerous out there!
April 8th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
No, living in America isn’t that dangerous now, but soon our government will take full advantage of Bush’s slow-burning of the Constitution and the right-wing radicals will have a true opportunity to come to power. After Obama, the next president will finish Bush’s work in a way that is far more intelligent and far more ruthless than Dick Cheney’s most potent sexual fantasies. It isn’t really the United States citizens that make the US dangerous. We just sit on our TVs we bought from Wal*Mart watching Bill O’Really on Faux Noose and wish that Jesus will take us away in our SUVs to Heaven every Sunday. It’s our government that is dangerous. We think all foreigners are terrorists and dissidents. Don’t come here unless you want an extended tour of Guantanamo Bay.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
You can laugh it up, it doesnt bother me. No matter what anyone says, i know that this was a just war. And the thousands of thanks that i recieved from the Iraqi people cement that notion in my heart. Did we find WMD’s? No. Does that mean they weren’t there? As far as why the Government said we were their, i dont know. I only know what I was told by my commander before we crossed that berm.
The fact of the matter is that they had plenty of time to get rid of whatever they were hiding, and now those WMD’s are in another country, still in the hands of terrorists, and someday, all the people that despise the US, will come begging for our help, again… and i hope we tell them to go fuck off.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
So kiwi, why did Britain help the US invade Iraq?
April 8th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Holy crap! Theres more schitzophrenics out there than i realized.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Dear Dentedhead,
I’ve gotta get this off my chest. I live in New York City. Last year I lived in HARLEM, NYC. In the entire year I lived there I did not witness a single gun, murder, robbery, or ANY crime for that matter.
So after spending a year in one of the supposed ‘worst of the worst’ areas in the US try to let the rumors and hear-say and biased stats rest. And food for thought: we have OVER 300 MILLION PEOPLE HERE, INCLUDING MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF IMMIGRANTS FROM EVERY ONE OF THOSE DANGEROUS COUNTRIES YOU’VE LISTED, EXCEPT FOR ANTARCTICA.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
150. Miss Destiny
I most certainly wanted to offer the President of Burundi a cup of coffee when I read that.
I’m going to see him in Miami in June, I can’t wait.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
chesty-puller: regardless of people’s opinion of the war, i humbly thank you for putting your life on the line so that i could sit in an air conditioned building drinking clean water chatting on the internet about whatever some guy in england/new zealand prompts us to discuss.
your service is greatly appreciated.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Dan: spelled is the weak past tense, spelt is the strong past tense. It is the same as “hanged, hung” “dreamed, dreamt” – you may find this BBC article on the grammatical fine point useful:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1061407
April 8th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Dre: not all of us are tied to Microsoft and its products. I use a Mac and specialized software for posting lists to the site. I spell checked and used my own sense of grammar to check the list. I have obviously missed some things. If you would be so kind as to give me some pointers to the grammatical errors I made, I will immediately correct them (as I always try to do when errors are pointed out). Thanks
April 8th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
“i know that this was a just war”
Chesty – if that’s how you feel, then fair enough. It’s pointless me attempting to argue the point as this is one debate that *nobody* will likely shift their position on.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
“So kiwi, why did Britain help the US invade Iraq?”
bucslim – because Tony Blair’s lips were permanently superglued to GW Bush’s butt cheeks. Blair was Bush’s bitch.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Chesty:
Dude, if you did, in fact, serve in Iraq then of course my hat’s off to you and I’m deeply sorry you had to go through that.
Yes, the one good thing out of all this is that we toppled a vicious dictator. That’s *always* a good thing.
But that’s it, pal. That’s it. Everything else from that war has been a loss. It dragged us away from the REAL war, in Afghanistan (they’re the people, remember, who really DID attack us) and has accomplished not ONE positive strategic goal that assists our national interests. Clearly the hope was there that it would. But at present there’s not a whiff or a sign of it.
And please–don’t drift back to the WMD’s… intelligence reports make it clear now that that entire thing was a confabulation of the Bush administration. The Downing memo is only one example of that. But we shouldn’t be so surprised; intelligence reports at *the time* were hinting at this, and the UN inspectors on the ground before the war were saying there was nothing there to find. Saddam’s stupidity was in not letting us simply see that. But then on the other hand, it was clearly the Iraqis he was trying to keep in the dark—not us.
Those chimaeric WMDs didn’t get “hidden,” nor were they spirited away into another country, Chesty. (by the way, going by your moniker, I assume you were a Marine. The only branch of the service that no one in my family served in–except a nephew of mine… but he doesn’t count, he was a photographer of all things). I would hope you could see what a little fairy tale these WMDs are…. first they’re there, then they fly away to another fairy land and wait to bite us in the ass. Yeah. Sure. Bush would love us to believe that, to justify his appalling foreign policy errors that have killed thousands of Iraqis and thousands of American troops. Your comrades.
I’m sure you don’t like hearing that your fight was for nothing. Makes you angry I bet. Well why do you think WE’RE angry about it?
April 8th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Hilarious you put usa on the list. You knew that would stir the pot. Our ignorance among our population is rappant. were the greatest country on the face of the earth…..so were told from birth. So when we hear otherwise….forget about it your wrong were right! What do you know your a foriegner? lol Love this list and I love seeing usa on the list. Thank You
April 8th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Jamie, thanks for posting link about strong and weak verbs. I never knew that. English is hard enough to learn as it is, so now that it is becoming the international language, those kind of eccentricities should be phased out, as should the spelling of words like light etc. In America the strong verbs are generally not taught nor used. When an American uses dreamt or learnt I know that they are the kind of pretentious person who puts a line through the stems of their sevens.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Chesty:
One other thing… not to lecture, but remember that the responsible and good American soldier always should have in his mind that he serves a *democracy,* and that therefore he needn’t swallow the policies and claims of his commander-in-chief hook, line, and sinker. In fact, he has a duty NOT to. Even while he follows orders.
DiscHuker:
Remember these guys swore to protect the constitution, not just your sorry ass (or mine) in its air-conditioned chamber. In fact… I actually as I recall, they DON’T swear to protect us… just that document. God bless the wisdom of the founders.
In any case… how did Osama Bin Laden threaten to take your air conditioning away? Was it, like… a phone call? Anonymous threatening phone call? Or did he actually identify himself? Man, there’s balls.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
4 AR-15s
1 WSAR-10 (Civilian semi-auto AK)
1 SKS
1 Turkish Mauser
1 Mosin Nagant
1 Pump action shotgun
1 Over and under shotgun
2 other Bolt action rifles
3 Handguns
0 Firearm related crimes committed…hmmmmm
April 8th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Damn you kiwi, I laughed too loudly at that last post, now I have to actually do some work. SHIT!
April 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Yogi:
I…. uh…. put a line through the stem of my sevens. Is that bad? Wait… I need to put down my tea and my biscuit, so I can take the bad news. Otherwise I may swoon.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Yogi Barrister: hey! I put lines through my 7s! Then again, I am from one of those countries raped by the Empire oh wait – so was the US (at first)! I actually learnt (hehe) that the strong form is more commonly found in the US as it is almost extinct in the UK now. As a kiwi I definitely learnt to use the strong form through reading books and (presumably) my parents.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
“Damn you kiwi, I laughed too loudly at that last post”
bucslim – tragically, what I said is true
April 8th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
what about Canada?
April 8th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Damn – I really need to do another grammar list – I love grammar so much! So much so that sick it be! (that is a grammatically correct sentence incidentally – Yoga was a master speaker of our wonderful language).
April 8th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
everlast:
Those damn deer get feistier every year, don’t they?
Are you sure you have enough firepower there? Wouldn’t a B.A.R. be recommended? That’d teach ‘em.
My guess is everlast lives in a rural area. Could be wrong, but I’m guessing. And all you people are scared to walk in the CITIES? Cripes, I feel safe on the streets of New York. It’s out where everlast is that I’d watch where I spit…. REAL freakin’ closely.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Okay! Time for today’s awards ladies and gentlemen! Settle down now, no need to get that riotous…especially you over there frenchy.
Today’s ‘Bushy’ Award goes to: AT86, for his or her narrow-mided views and severely limited knowledge of WWII; the English language, including spelling and grammar; and most anything concerning world cultures.
Today’s ‘O O O BAMA!’ Award goes to: Randall, for his or her balanced, well spoken debate and level-head views on America and the world at large.
Thanks for playing, see you next list.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Randall, From what I remember the UN inspectors went to places were there were supposed to be WMD and couldn’t find anything. Iraq was supposed to provide proof that the WMD’s were either destroyed or dismantled and they provided neither. So, what happened to all the WMD’s that did exist at one time and are now gone? Also, did you attend all the intelligense meetings during that time? Can I get a copy of these intelligence reports you mentioned stating that it was all made up by the president himself? Also, why is that Congress voted for the invasion along with around 40 other countries? Something was going on and the general public doesn’t know what really happened.
“Yes, the one good thing out of all this is that we toppled a vicious dictator. That’s *always* a good thing.
But that’s it, pal. That’s it. Everything else from that war has been a loss. ”
Gee, freeing over 40 million people is a loss (20 mil in Iraq and 20 mil in Afganistan). I’m sure the people of Iraq don’t see it as a loss.
Lastly, we won the war against Iraq. It’s basic cleanup time now trying to get the criminal terrorist elements defeated just like the police do everyday right here in America, the only difference is over there we wear a military uniform and over here it’s a policemans uniform.
I sometime wonder where are the Americans with the backbone to do a job and finish the job rather than cut and run at the first sign of difficulty. Quit your whining and let the military do their job.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Is it bad that I put a through a seven and a z?
April 8th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Jamie, you aren’t being pretentious, that’s the way you were taught. Only Americans who put a line through the stems of their sevens are pretentious.
BTW Bucslim and I had our comments deleted from the end of your US presidential poll. Are we too longwinded?
April 8th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
jfrater – yoo dun lurnt me lots and teechded me sum theengs in englush i dinnent no beefour!
April 8th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
sorry…put a line through a 7 and a z
April 8th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
we are not pretentious…just cautious with our lined numbers and letters.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
You might be right about Americans being more likely to use the strong form. I never do it in writing because it looks odd, but come to think of it, I do use dreamt when speaking.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Sudan #4 – Currently undergoing a terrible genocide. USA is listed as more dangerous… Come on jfrater, you shouldn’t have let that be on the list. It’s obviously a person who is fed up with the U.S. government (understandable). Hating on the U.S. was certain to happen in the comments… but generally I give a lot of credit to the validity of these list. I might have to re-evaluate.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
unlike any of my weapons, a B.A.R as in the military Browning Automatic Rifle, is just that a Automatic rifle, a no-no here in Michigan, except for certain types that require a class III federal permit and more to get.
And once again Randall’s huge sweeping generalizations miss the mark completely. I’m am completely amazed at how you generally make well thought out, worth while comments and then proceed to ruin them with ones like your statements above. You tend to make huge, unsubstantiated assumptions against people on this board without any actual knowledge of the person.
Not only are you wrong about me, you make a broad brush statement about all rural people, during the same thread you slam Dentshop about doing the same, making his (agree wrong) assumption and views of the USA, isn’t this a bit hypocritical?
I’m not trying to be mean, but man sometimes you have some serious double-standards that you go by here on the listverse.
Oh and in case you are wondering, Detroit, MI. Now in Warren and my firearms have nothing to do with hunting.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
and still….NO DentShop……chicken shit!!
April 8th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Troyamu, by all means festoon your sevens and Z’s with little lines, I think they’re pretty.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
also, as being in and around Detroit often, i have no problems being in the D. I am actually pretty fond of it, for the most part
BTW Kwame’s a character isn’t he?
April 8th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Yogi: I’m afraid I must…my job basically requires it (more or less).
Everlast: If you ever want to get rid of any of your firearms, mom424 seems to think that alot of Canadians will take them off your hands.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I’ve been in Detroit after the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup, in New York at 4 am in Hell’s Kitchen, and drunk in Chicago on Halstead street at 2 am St. Patty’s Day, and where was the ONLY place I’ve been mugged? Kitchner, Ontario. Go figure!
April 8th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Yogi: I’m sorry HOW are Americans who put lines through their z’s and 7’s pretentious? What if they had a teacher or parents who taught them as they were learning to write to do it that way? Or how about the fact that when you are doing algebra and have 2s and zs all over the place and want to be able to tell the difference? I guess I don’t follow your logic but Americans who do it don’t do it to be “pretentious”, that’s a bunch of bull.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
everlast:
Okay, you live in Detroit. I understand now… you *need* all that firepower.
But come now… lecturing me on double standards? And I’m such a nice guy…
Are you telling me that YOU don’t see the humor… the ironic, over-the-top humor, in listing the WEAPONS you possess, online, in a forum? You were daring to be mocked, everlast. Just daring. And I saw the challenge and rose to it. And after all, I was pretty damn gentle really. I said nothing overly pejorative.
I live in ruralsville myself, pal… and have a few friends and relatives who are gun-crazy. A few… not many. Nevertheless, I’m hardly the city-guy-who-hates-the-backwards-country-folk type.
so cool it, killer.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
troyfamu, and she would be correct, there a LOTS of guns like mine owned legally in private hands in Canada, you just don’t hear about them on the news because of the lack of violence. Kind of puts an odd spin on the guns cause crimes though process, so much so that it forced Michael Moore to re-evaluate his point in bowling for columbine movie. He originally made it to prove lots of guns means lots of crime, then while in production when he went to Canada and found out they own the same guns and lots of them, without the crime, he steered the movie more to a cultural problem in American, not just a gun problem. It was pretty amusing reading his blog several years ago, he kind of a had a breakdown about the point of his movie. btw these posts were promptly removed at a later time, lol.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Nuglyman didn’t you know that all of the Monday morning quarterbacks coming out of the woodwork are always right? I have a feeling most of these same people would be the ones complaining if we didn’t go to war and a dirty bomb was set off in a major city because we were not proactive enough.
I can hear them now. “Bush even had permission from congress to go to war but he didn’t and look what happened” What an idiot.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
wow i miss the edit button
April 8th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Chesty;
With all deference and thanks to you for your service to country (I come from a military background), I beg to differ. There were and still are many dictators worse than Saddam, in fact he’s not even on the same playing field. Omar al-Bashir in the Sudan, killed around 200,000 of his own folks during his flirt with ethnic cleansing. They’re not razing villages anymore, thats some improvement. What about Mugabe? Forcefully dispossessed around half a million people. Good lord, King whats his name from Saudi Arabia is at least as bad as Saddam. None of the despots listed posed a direct threat to perceived American interests, nor did they thumb their noses at the US administration. I won’t bother to address the WMD fairy tale, Randall and others have covered it nicely.
Oil interests, punishment, deflection of responsibility (911), and the need to flex the collective American muscle are the real reasons for the war in Iraq.
I’m sure that the individual soldiers have much better reasons for being there than the administration that sent them.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Just to clear some things up. I didnt post my comment to start a debate about the war, however, kiwiboi’s comment was not justified, and for someone who has no idea about whats going on besides what is reported on the news to make that comment really got under my skin.
Is Bush an idiot? Yes, i do think he is. However, i can say with about 98% accuracy that i never followed an order given by him.
Did we screw up the strategy part? yes, horribly. This blame shouldnt fall on Bush i feel, but it does, because thats really what the President is… a scapegoat.
I think that not only the military commanders are to blame, but also the “intelligence community (CIA)” Now i dont know who was calling the shots, but alot of things could have been avoided, if the politicians would have let us do our job.
Instead, they put the military on a leash, and would let it out, then pull it back in, which is why Iraq is in the state its in. Strategically, it doesnt make sense to take a city, then leave, only to take it again the next day.
On the bright side(i hope) is that we learned our lessons. Just take a look at Fallujah, which was the most fierce city in Iraq, now it is probably the most stable. I can only hope that we take what we learned from that city, and apply it to the rest of Iraq.
That is all…Thanks for giving me something to do while at work! love the site j, although i dont post much, it makes the day go by.
AT86, although it has been said, you really need to brush up on your WWII history.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
randall: no, he sent me a text. he’s really quick to respond also. apparently there is a great AT&T tower just outside of his cave.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Jackie, if you were home schooled by a parent who taught you to do that, you aren’t pretentious. In America we don’t put a line through the stems of our sevens, even when doing algebra. I would suggest that an American who does do that is trying to make themself look more sophisticated. I used to know a guy who not only put a line through the stems of his sevens he would adopt a fake English accent when he was trying to pick up women.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Yogi: you had comments deleted? Seriously? When was that? I haven’t deleted any comments – in fact – I don’t delete them once they hit the site- I just pick which moderated comments should go to the site and I never prevent moderated comments from regulars from appearing.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
otay: that comment could potentially be in my top 10 favorite comments on the site! I hope you weren’t being supercilious!
April 8th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
USA…. most of it is not that bad. but I live in Detroit…. lol that shud be number 1……
April 8th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
I found this list mildly entertaining, to say the least. I don’t really have much experience with big cities in the US outside of Texas, where I live. I grew up in Houston, in a pretty bad part, at that. I’ve walked downtown at 3am, nothing happened. Same goes for Dallas while I was waiting to catch a bus. In my opinion, the US as a whole is a reasonably safe country, nowhere NEAR the “danger factor” that some of the listed countries pose.
As for the comment about Somalia being too dangerous for Marines, that’s a cheap shot. So a Blackhawk got shot down by a lucky punk with an RPG. Our forces still held back 2000+(could be less, not sure) angry Somalians for 20 something hours before they were rescued. Personally I think we made them our bitch that day.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
JFrater, they’re back. It could be my funky computer. I didn’t think you deleted them, I thought maybe we just ran out of space.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Yogi: some of us use lines in certain numbers and letters to keep persons who are reading field notes and calculations from making a mistake and entering an erroneous number/letter into a computer program that may be computing the wind load on your house, or a bridge, etc. It does not make me feel important, but it may keep someone from transposing incorrectly.
Everlast: my belief is that there are NOT too many guns…just too many criminals who use guns. I would have loved to seen the Michael Moore stuff, though.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
nuglyman:
“Also, did you attend all the intelligense meetings during that time?”
No, nugly, I wasn’t. Were you? Do the reports that have come out in recent years–clearly indicating that the intelligence community did NOT feel that there was justification for the war–do you discount them and pretend they don’t exist? Ever hear of the Downing Street Memo? Or do you just think that was “made up?”
And by the way, it’s spelled “intelligence.”
“…From what I remember the UN inspectors went to places were there were supposed to be WMD and couldn’t find anything.”
And why do you think that was, nuglyman?
But you see, you’re also not remembering correctly. There weren’t SUPPOSED to be WMDs there, in those places—the purpose of the UN verification teams were to ENSURE that there were no WMDs, to inspect these *suspected* sites and verify that the WMDs either were not there, or had been destroyed.
The chief UN inspector has stated time and time again that he DID NOT believe that there was justification for this war–and that they found NO EVIDENCE for continued production of WMDs in Iraq—certainly not for *nuclear* weapons. I take it you ignore his opinions. Nice.
” Iraq was supposed to provide proof that the WMD’s were either destroyed or dismantled and they provided neither.”
No, they did not. Did it not ever occur to you that Saddam was A) trying to bluff his Iranian enemies? and that B) maybe he was a little nutty about national sovereignty?
” So, what happened to all the WMD’s that did exist at one time and are now gone?”
Depends on what you mean. The evidence is that Iraq had abandoned its nuclear program, so there was nothing to find in that regard. They seem to have, in large part, got away from their chemical/biological program as well. The WMDs were not there to find because THEY WERE NOT THERE. Not sent to another country, not spirited away.
“Also, why is that Congress voted for the invasion along with around 40 other countries?”
Are you telling me you have not heard ONE of these congressman–as well as reps from other countries–who now say they felt duped and lied to by the administration? Are you that ignorant of the news that’s gone on for the last few years? People on BOTH sides of the aisle have said they felt the administration LIED to them. Where were you when these statements came out? Asleep?
You were also dealing with a congress that rubber-stamped everything Bush wanted. They had a tendency to swallow everything he sent them. Is this so mysterious to you?
“Something was going on and the general public doesn’t know what really happened.”
You’re right on this point. The administration–and Bush–were LYING and confabulating, and we didn’t know it. NOW we do.
“Gee, freeing over 40 million people is a loss (20 mil in Iraq and 20 mil in Afganistan). I’m sure the people of Iraq don’t see it as a loss.”
OH YOU DON’T, huh? TALK TO THEM. Look at their own feelings. But I suppose you believe that the situation there now is all due to “insurgents.”
These people are “FREE?” Free from only one thing–Saddam. In almost all other ways they are in MISERY. And it’s due to the FAILED policies and strategies of this administration.
“Lastly, we won the war against Iraq. It’s basic cleanup time now trying to get the criminal terrorist elements defeated just like the police do everyday right here in America, the only difference is over there we wear a military uniform and over here it’s a policemans uniform.”
THAT statement is deluded, sad, ignorant.. and just plain nuts. The color of the sky in your world must be something to see.
“I sometime wonder where are the Americans with the backbone to do a job and finish the job rather than cut and run at the first sign of difficulty. Quit your whining and let the military do their job.”
Ha. I’m a RESPONSIBLE American citizen questioning the tactics, motives, and judgement of the GOVERNMENT that represents me, you ass. You, on the other hand, would be happy to sit and believe all that you’re told. Hope you’re proud.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
For the non-Americans against the US in Iraq:
How would you feel about US involvement if it was YOUR country being run into social, political, and economic ruin and terror by a Saddam Hussein type? Would you want US help then?
While I’m not totally behind our foreign policy, something had to be done about Iraq, and since neither the UN nor individual nations wanted to do something, it means our reward is a US-friendly nation, re-built in our image.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Is anybody watching Gen. Petraeus’ testimony before Congress? He seems to be more concerned about the Sunni insurgents and Al Qaeda than he is about the Al Sadr-Iran alliance.
Thank God! My senator, Barbara Boxer is not buying his bullshit.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Islanderbst, if you could go back to 1939 and do only one thing, take out Stalin, would you do it? If so, how would that have impacted the outcome of the war in Europe?
April 8th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
“For the non-Americans against the US in Iraq:”
islanderbst – why the “non-Americans” ? I’m a British citizen and feel the British military shouldn’t be there either. You need to pull your head out of your ass; not everything begins and ends with the USA.
“Would you want US help then?”
I don’t recall Iraq inviting foreign military in. We invaded due to Bush and Blair insisting on a terrorist linkage between Iraq and Al Quaeda.
“it means our reward is a US-friendly nation, re-built in our image.”
OMFG…NO!! You cannot be serious.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
oh oh…. booo boo lets just all sit behind our screens and watch…..
April 8th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
islanderbst:
yes the US did help some people with the down-fall of saddam, but what did the us replace him with? Saddam was similar to stalin. yes stalin did kill millions of his own people, BUT he kept social order. when one strong dictator falls, another one must replace him. if not… well just look whats going on in iraq right now.
the us has done to iraq what the ussr had done to afghanistan.
and i am proud to be an american. not all americans are blind.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Yogi, I have no idea how it would have changed things. Maybe the war would have been over sooner, maybe the balance of power would be different now. I guess I dont understand what you’re after. All I know is that with Saddam out, Iraq will eventually be a safe, prosperous nation, and that is something it wasn’t going to have with Saddam in place.
Any Iraqi’s here to compare Iraq pre-US invasion and now?
April 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
kiwiboi:“Would you want US help then?”
“I don’t recall Iraq inviting foreign military in. We invaded due to Bush and Blair insisting on a terrorist linkage between Iraq and Al Quaeda.”
You didnt answer the question. Please do. Besides I doubt the women of that country, who had NO VOICE, had a chance to call for help.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
“Just to clear some things up. I didnt post my comment to start a debate about the war, however, kiwiboi’s comment was not justified”
Chesty – not justified? In your opinion, maybe.
“and for someone who has no idea about whats going on besides what is reported on the news to make that comment really got under my skin.”
Now, this is just foolish, not to mention patronising. I am more than able to construct my own opinions about anything I choose (the “reported on the news” bit). And my world is not limited to Fox news and TMZ. You know nothing about me. Besides, judging by the reasons you gave to justify the invasion of Iraq, even having been there is no guarantee that you understand the real issues…
April 8th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Including America is a bit of a cheap shot. It’s not that bad, and even though some statistics are warped, there are many worser countries to include.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
“You didnt answer the question. Please do. Besides I doubt the women of that country, who had NO VOICE, had a chance to call for help.”
islanderbst – WTF? You think the Iraq invasion was to “help” the people ? Another example of “exporting democracy” perhaps?
Your arrogance is exceeded only by your stupidity.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Well, I learned something important today.
I’d tell you, but you wouldn’t understand.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
islanderbst, you have no idea whether or not Stalin had an impact on WWII? The point being, he was a monster, as bad as Hitler and worse than Saddam, but he was a major reason why the Allies prevailed in Europe. Saddam was an iron handed dictator who didn’t tolerate Al Qaeda nor did he permit Iran to interact with Iraqi Shiites. Point of fact, the US backed him in the Iran-Iraq war for this very reason.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
interesting take on the iraq war but a trooper…
A common & misguided comment on the part of libs, Paul supporters, & other critics of the Iraq operation is that ‘Iraq has nothing to do with Al Queda, and takes our eye off the ‘real war’ in Afghanhistan’… Usually this is connected to some comment about not catching Bin Laden…
In reality, nothing could be further from the truth… Afghanistan needed to be dealt with first – in the sense that forcing AQ out would disrupt their tactical abilities in preparation for the ‘next stage’ (Iraq)…. And it is still important that we ‘follow through’ on our promise to the Afgans in terms of helping them keep their elected government… But they are not, nor have they ever been, the key to defeating AQ…. Iraq is…
So, let’s take a look at the ‘big picture’ on the subject…
First, Bin Laden himself…
Capturing Bin Laden would be a great political event, as far as support for the war is concerned… And it would bring a sense of closure to the victims of his attacks.. But that’s about all that would be accomplished… Bin Laden is a figurehead & symbolic leader. If he dies or is captured, he becomes a martyr & is quickly replaced by whoever AQ feels can best carry on in his memory… The long-term military impact? Almost non-existant…
In the same sense that not finding Hitler didn’t impact the defeat of Nazisim, not finding Bin Laden will have no impact on the defeat of Al Queda.
Second, the ‘Afganhistan Question’…
This one requires a bit more detail, as it’s rooted in a fundamental mis-conceptualization of the military situation WRT AQ… Namely the thought that because AQ was using A-stan as a training & staging ground, A-stan must be the ‘homeland’ of Al Queda…
Folks who advocate focusing on Afghanhistan, or who believe we should have declared war all fall into this trap…
It’s understandable – in past ‘conventional’ wars, the place where you train your forces & where your top leadership resides is usually deep inside your homeland, along with your core supporters & the economic & political support for your war effort, IF you are a nation-state combatant…
In such a case, you have to defend this area because ‘all your eggs’ are in that basket… You can’t abandon it & displace to another country, because it’s YOUR country…
BUT here’s the problem. Al Queda is NOT a nation-state combatant. They have no borders, no ‘country’, and do NOT keep all their eggs in one basket…
So their top leadership, their training & staging areas, and their ’support center’ can and often are all located in different places… And their leadership & training/staging operations are MOBILE and can easily be moved to ’safe’ areas should they be threatened…
The advantage to this is that they do not have to defend the nations that they use for training or leadership positions (places like A-stan) – they can just abandon those after a brief fight, and displace to a new ‘host’ state (or un-governed/failed territory)….
Chasing them from failed state to failed state does very little damage to their capabilities, and is NOT cost effective for the pursuing power (US)…
Which brings us to the point of all this:
To defeat Al Queda, you first have to get them to stand and fight – not just engage in delaying actions to cover the core elements retreat (See the early days of OEF & our work with the Northern Alliance), but to actually commit forces (such that they have) in ‘defense’ of something that they cannot afford to ‘lose’…
And the way to do this is to attack the region that provides the one component they CANNOT move (their core economic & political support)… That would be the Middle East…
Whereas a failure to defend A-stan can be framed as a ’strategic maneuverl’ and a ‘defeat’ for the US because AQ escaped (NM they ran away, they can always frame it as a ‘brilliant maneuver’ similar to how Saddam framed ODS in the Arab world)… A failure to defend a ME nation destroys AQ’s position as the ‘Defender of Islam’ and severely damages their cedibility… Further, the establishment of a free Arab republic is a serious obstacle to AQ’s end-goal of establishing a Sunni theocracy…
So US troops in Iraq, attempting to help the Iraqis build a free republic is – to Al Queda – about the same as Russian troops in New York, attempting to set up the ‘People’s Republic of New York’ would have been for us in 1950…
They have to stop it or die trying…. Because a failure to do so WILL destroy them…
Thus, Al Queda has committed everything they have to the situation in Iraq (as evidenced by a sharp drop in Al Queda attacks on western targets… Every terror attack NOT RELATED TO IRAQ since 2003 has been either (a) in the Muslim World, or (b) conducted by a non-Queda copy-cat group)… They have tried everything from attempting to start a Muslim-on-Muslim civil war by bombing Muslim shrines, to physically attempting to establish Islamic theocracy in parts of Iraq… Failing at both, they have resorted to attempting to terrorize Iraqis into supporting them, or at least rejecting us – hoping for a Vietnam-style scenario where the US gets ‘tired’ and abandons the Iraqi campaign, giving them the ‘victory’ they need to preserve their reputation & thus their viability as an organization…
They are failing at that too, and destroying themselves in the process – in fact, their desparation has produced an unintended side-bonus: Not only are they being shown as impotent & unable to ‘defend’ Iraq, but their methods are alienating not just Iraqis but Arabs in general…
Rather than being seen as ‘liberators’ fighting the corrupt regimes of the ME, their willingness to kill, rape & torture fellow Muslims has given folks a view of what life under Al Queda’s utopia would be like… And that vision is being rejected… This is the core of the civil revolt in Iraq – the people do not want to trade one tyrant (Saddam) for another (Queda)…
But of course, it’s much easier to blame Bush for ’side-tracking’ into Iraq for (insert absurd reason here) than it is to actually analyze the situation…
April 8th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
should say, BY a trooper, this is a message posted by a a US army trooper off a different website. It’s not me. So don’t expect me to defend or backup the view point, i just thought it was an interesting take on it.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Everlast, not a bad analysis however you are ignoring the ten thousand pound gorilla in the room. The biggest threat from Islamo-fascists( sorry, I hate that simple minded term) isn’t Al Qaeda, it is the nations of Pakistan, Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. We spent three trillion dollars to defeat how many Al Qaeda members? Do we have any money left over to deal with the bigger threats?
April 8th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Yogi:
In America we don’t put a line through the stems of our sevens, even when doing algebra.
Not true, I live in America and know people (including myself) who started doing that to tell the difference between their numbers. For example I know some people who do it to not confuse 1s and 7s.
Now it sounds like you DO have a pretentious friend who did it to…well to just be pretentious. My problem with what you said is that you grouped ALL AMERICANS together saying that well if you’re American and you do it, you are pretentious.
Don’t make a broad generalization because of a select few.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Yogi, so what you’re saying is you’re ok with the lesser of two evils. Even if the lesser evil still kills thousands or more of his own people?
and shamzahm:”yes stalin did kill millions of his own people, BUT he kept social order”
if social order is acheived by killing millions, no thanks
April 8th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
everlast: very interesting. i’m curious to see the rebuttal from those that disagree.
April 8th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
jfrater: Seriously, i find your site to be very educational. Sometimes the posted lists are not correct, but that is quickly pointed out and corrected by comments. This IS the first site i log onto each morning with great anticipation of seeing the new list. Great job Jamie!!
April 8th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
jfrater: supercilious? not at all my friend. BTW, i had to look that word up….nice word! I love this site and it is very educational. This is the first site I logon to each morning with great anticipation of reading the newest list and comments. Great job Jamie!!!
April 8th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
sorry about the double post, thought i screwed up and deleted the first one……My bad! lol
April 8th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
i have a buddy who spent his childhood in the poor area of russia, and said it was pretty crazy, he said he actully saw some guy get stabbed when he was walking home
April 8th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
“But of course, it’s much easier to blame Bush for ’side-tracking’ into Iraq for (insert absurd reason here) than it is to actually analyze the situation…”
everlast – what utter crap.
Start by reading Dick Clarke’s book (who was GWB’s Counter-Terrorism Chief and served under multiple Presidents). Clarke – a Bush Admin terrorism insider at the time – thought the decision to invade Iraq was bizarre and groundless. Other insiders with no connection to him have backed his views. Even Condi Rice defended Clarke’s integrity when the Whitehouse started a smear campaign against him.
Moreover, the invasion of Iraq fulfilled Bin Laden’s prophecy that the US response to 9/11 would probably involve the invasion and occupation of an Arab oil nation. A great recruitment mechanism for young terrorists, don’t you think?
April 8th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
wow, let me restate this once again, it’s not my writings there, Someone else posted that on another website, I just found it an interesting read, different then most peoples it was about WMDs, there are no WMDs thoughts on Iraq.
You can read the whole thread, including both supports AND opponents to this view of the war at the link below
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=663821
April 8th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
DentShop:
Ok I’m a fan of thinking what ever you want; It makes it much easier to find the morons. I do have to say that this list, as Well written as it was, certain entries are FLAWED!
To go from War stats., incidents of political unrest, Drug cartels, and Ransom to “Don’t go over there he has a gun?” What the Fuck. And what makes your pad so happening?
For example: “and 31000 people end their own lives.” What does that lonely crying in the shower dumbass with a razor blade to his own arm have to do with say my tastes for sushi? Not a Damn thing! Remember One idiots life means an extra thirty seconds getting around emergency vehicles so that you can go to that new Broadway show. Him ending his life, across town, has nothing to do with ANYONE other than people who wasted enough of there time to care. Danger to yourself does not automatically come with a danger to others.
If you are going to Mention stats in one keep it consistent. Let me see the suicide rate for Iraq. You hear about those more often.
Every country has hate groups. Have you looked at China lately? Ass. How many have died in the past month? Monks, “We just want to be left alone”", Monks. Hate crime is part of the world, going on since the start. You spoke of South Africa and didn’t say Anything about the racism there.
Thanks for the Headache Fucker.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
If the resources we spent in Iraq here in the U.S. on Police officers, Hospitals, prison reform, and poverty alleviation, we would thrive in more peace and prosperity. The war has cost my town of Eugene, OR $144,000,000.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Flurry of comments guaranteed by inclusion of the US!
As an expatriate living in the US, the love affair some Americans have with guns never ceases to confuse/confound/terrify me. My favourite quip (in the right company) is that my home country, Australia, had their last mass shooting in 1997, then we banned most private ownership of guns and we haven’t had one since.
All that said however, to include the US on the list ahead of the Congo (either of them), Liberia, Pakistan or even somewhere like Indonesia or Jamaica does seem to smack a bit of sensationalism.
The Australian government runs an excellent website called http://www.smarttraveller.gov.au which provides a safety rating for almost every country in the world. The US ranks above, for example, Canada and Germany but is far below a lot of other countries (including almost all of Central & South America).
April 8th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
But Yeah, this list is a bit glorified and innaccurate.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
to put the us anywhere on this list is not only irresponsible but clearly coming from someone very uneducated. with thousands flocking into the state from the southern border just to get a better life. and nowhere on the list is mexico venezuela or cuba…. these are all countries where there is mass poverty and little hope.
I would rather live in this country and ‘take my chances’ than even visit mexico where vicente fox is so oppressive towards his people that instead of reforming their massively failing government he encourages them to flock to the borders where they could drown or die in the desert. all because he has zero control of his failing country….not saying much for someone who essentially a dictatorial president.
many would say if you don’t like this country get out….however I wouldn’t wish that on anyone because you have it far better than you could ever imagine.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Open Letter to the List Master Jamie:
There is so much wrong with this list it (almost) defies my ability to write it all down..
Actually I started to do so about five hours ago – in the office – but I know that I would have to get some real work done, so I bailed out before posting.
1) A list like this (even with your ‘adjustment’ of moving the USA to a bonus and not #3) looks designed to be flame bait. This looks like it was designed to piss off people from various parts of the world.
2) There should be some sort of criteria when a submitter is posting an ordered list (best of, worst of, etc)…
Antartica is listed – therefore climate or outdoor exposure seems to be a criteria.
Personnaly, I would rather be in Antartica than on the top of Everest in the winter. Much better chance of rescue. More O2 as well. Everest is not listed, so I suppose the list maker did not do much thinking.
Ok, not climate, than what? Probably of Death? General Unhappiness? A vague feeling in one’s stomache?
A religious Jew (side curls, etc) would probably find Mecca during Haj a rather Dangerous Place (if he were ‘transported’ there – it is unlawful for a Jew to even book a flight into in the city). Why is Saudi Arabia not on this list, then?
I am not going to get into the rest of the stuff that was mentioned above.
——-
Bottom line, Jamie:
As you may know, I find this list (and it’s comments) often informative, enlightening and entertaining.
I am not sure if I speak for the other ListVersers, but I beseech you to refrain from ‘flame bait’ lists.
I would rather have you a skipped day that put up stuff like this.
/Stevenh
April 8th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
kiwiboi, I don’t recall reading where Clarke says the decision to invade Iraq was “bizarre and groundless”
April 8th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
stevenh: Good point, the list maker should have really put climate into consideration if he did put Antartica on there, then he/she should have put Mt.Everest at #2 because of the weather and abundance of deaths that occur when trying to climb to the summit.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
You missed a lot of good ones, friend.
But as for the bonus, while I recognize it to be true in some aspects, I don’t think it deserves to be the bonus on this list. Also, I found it funny that you mentioned “other right wind radical groups”, but not the left. While it’s true that there have been outbursts of “right-wing” radicals, there are plenty of left-wing ones as well. Us left-wingers have our own faults, and while we’re commonly known as the peaceful hippies, we’ve done our share.
April 8th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
I have traveled to the States a bunch of times and nothing has ever happened nor have I seen anything happen. I think the rest of the world gets a skewed view of the US from its own media and TV programming. If I have learned anything from Maury Povich is that you have a lot of Baby’s Momma’s running around looking for Daddies….
April 8th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
kiwiboi you quoted Clake in another list about Another 10 Conspiracy Theories. Here is your post.
kiwiboi – February 18th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
BadassBookworm – “U.S didn’t invade Iraq on the presumption that they had anything to do with 9/11 directly. It is the THEATRE in which we are fighting a war agaisnt Islamic Fundamentalist Jihad which is bent on destroying the west EVERYWHERE.”
Huh ? Utter nonsense. Besides, there are more fertile grounds than Iraq if you want to tackle “Islamic Fundamentalist Jihad”.
With a name like “bookworm” let me suggest you read Dick Clarke’s book “Against All Enemies”. You will remember Clarke… he was only Chief Counter-Terrorism Adviser on the US National Security Council under both Clinton and GW Bush.
Clarke himself says that after 9/11 the sudden focus on Iraq was bizarre and irrelevant.
Where in his book does he say this?
April 8th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Who’s yer daddy?…..errr, who’s MY daddy?
April 8th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
How, is Haiti not on this list?
April 8th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Intersting list. I’m from New Zealand and below is a list of places to avoid when travelling provided by our Ministry Of Foreign Affairs. They are classified by them as extreme risk:
AFGHANISTAN
ALBANIA – border areas between Albania and Kosovo.
AZERBAIJAN – Nagorno-Karabach and surrounds.
BURUNDI
CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC – Borders with Chad and Cameroon.
CHAD
COLOMBIA – Except for the the cities of Medellin, Barranquilla, Cartagena, Bucaramanga and Bogata.
CONGO, DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC – Eastern and North Eastern areas.
COTE D’IVOIRE/IVORY COAST
ETHIOPIA – Borders with Eritrea, Somalia, Gambella region.
ERITREA – Borders with Ethiopia and Sudan. Avoid travel north of Afabet.
GEORGIA – Regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, the Pankisi Gorge beyond Akhmeta and the Svaneti region, NW Georgia.
GUINEA – Border regions with Liberia, Sierra Leone and Cote d’Ivoire.
HAITI
INDIA – Jammu and Kashmir, the India-Pakistan international border, Tripura, Manipur, Assam and Nagaland.
INDONESIA – Maluku Province, Central Sulawesi province.
IRAN – Advise against travel beyond Bam and Bandar Abbas.
IRAQ
ISRAEL and the Occupied Palestinian Territories – Gaza and the West Bank.
KENYA – border regions with Ethiopia, Sudan and Somalia, Gambella region.
LEBANON – South of the Litani river.
MOROCCO (Western Sahara)
NIGERIA – Bakassi Peninsula, Rivers, Bayelsa and Delta States.
PAKISTAN
PHILIPPINES – Throughout Mindanao. Sulu Archipelago including Basilan, Sulu, and Tawi-Tawi island groups.
RUSSIAN FEDERATION – North Caucasus region.
SOMALIA
SRI LANKA – Northern and Eastern areas.
SUDAN – Southern and Eastern Sudan. Chadian border with Darfur.
UGANDA – North, North West and North East Uganda. Border areas with Democratic Republic of Congo, Murchison Falls National Park.
UZBEKISTAN – Areas bordering Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan other than official crossing points.
YEMEN – Governorates of Sa’dah, Ma’rib, Hadramaut
April 8th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Wow – USA as a bonus? I’m okay with that until you throw around the “right-wing” wackos thing. I admit there are right-wing extremists (Klansmen, neo-nazis, etc…) that create terror. But you failed to mention the left-wing crazies as well — PETA, people who blow up places that sell fur, blow up oil refining plants, etc… Be far and don’t pick on one side or the other!
Other than that…rock on!
April 8th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Darfur – If you are not Janjaweed
Columbia – If you are a Narc
Zimbabwe – If you are a skin head
Serbia – If you are a Muslim
Croatia – If you are a Serbian
Turkey – If you are Armenian (though it’s better now)
Iran – If you are Israeli
Gaza – If you are Israeli
I could go on forever… It’s a sad commentary…
Oh, and if you like to breath clean air, DON’T go to China. Beijing is very dangerous for breathers
.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
China – A good place to visit if you are a smoker?
April 8th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Hey everyone let’s try to be controversial and bash the U.S. for the big bonus!! I really can’t believe this, you know as well as I do the only reason the U.S. is mentioned is because of the Iraq war! Taking a cheap shot at America to me is nothing but some sorry assed bullshit!
April 8th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Darthbarbie: Totally agree. Our Media does have a thing for our less tasteful citizens. The world on the whole, Yes I said the Whole, sees our television in a general light. “They must all be like that” stereo-types hinder. What most foreigners don’t realize is that we’re watching crap tv so that we can Laugh at it. It’s entertaining for us to see what happens when you group stupid people together. Call it Sadistic, call it egotistical, But realize that To Us it’s just fuckin’ funny.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
It would be interesting to hear about where people have personally seen or experienced danger.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
mexico… bad water, drug crimes, poverty, dictatorial president,etc I won’t be visiting there anytime soon(and by soon I mean ever)
April 8th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Really any place is dangerous, but you have to narrow down the criteria, how’s the climate, how’s the crime rate, etc. So really, How can you put Antartica on here and not Mt. Everest?
April 8th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Why is it always the “right wing extremists” when it was just last month million dollar homes in a neighborhood outside Seattle burned down because of “left wing extremists” trying to convince us of their environmentalist fundamentalism?
April 8th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Heres a thought…… maybe the right wing extremists should get together with the left wing extremists, put their wings together and fly their asses out of here.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Amen to Iraq being the worst place on earth. My step-dad (who has been around since I was 4 and am now 22) is over there now defending our country and my best friend and older brother just got home. War does things to men, and I’m just glad 2 out of 3 are home. Norman comes home in 4 years. He is in my prayers everyday and I know he will come home safe… Good list, jfrater! Reminds me why NEVER to go to Russia (except for the bomb ass booze).
April 8th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
USA does deserve to be on the list. Even as a bonus yeah. America is not very safe…. I mean especially where I live. Considering I’m sure the violence is not just around here and is all over the country.. I’ve heard people shooting at each other before from my bedroom. It’s pretty lame. Not to mention all those subway beatings going on in Philly right now. America is just a really violent and rude nation as a whole. Everyday I go on the computer it’s “xx amount of people where shot and killed today, just in one city”. I live in Camden County, NJ if anyone is curious.
What I am mainly saying is, if you consider America to be safe then you are not paying close enough attention.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Hey jfrater,this is my first visit to your site(actually,the first post i ever read was the one about committing suicide,lol). I’m from Singapore (heard of it??), where we are currently on a massive manhunt of an escaped JI terrorist leader, Mas Selamat Kastari(but my country isnt as dangerous as the ones you listed above,i wasnt implying that haha). Your lists are informative/funny/most definitely,entertaining!
April 8th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Off topic, but we may need some light relief:
for Jamie and the other NZers here -
I am teaching English in Korea. One of my Korean colleagues found quiz questions in English which I was reading to the students.
Me: This bird starts with “k”. It lives in New Zealand. It cannot fly …
Student (puts hand up): Sheep.
(On the other hand, every class knew “kangaroo” and “koala”, but the one class I asked “kookaburra” didn’t know it.)
On topic:
I was going to say “I have never been to the USA but I’m sure that 95% of it is perfectly safe”, then scrolling down I found that Randall used the same percentage.
I admit to holding and, at times, expressing anti-USA sentiments, but I simply can’t see that the USA belongs on this list, even now as a bonus. If travellers observe due precautions for their own safety, then they can expect no trouble. The same cannot be said for many others countries on the list (and many not on it).
On the other side of the coin, possibly the *safest* place for a traveller is North Korea!
April 8th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
How many Americans have been imprisoned or killed for their religious beliefs, sexuality or for criticising their governments? Name one.
How many Chinese, North Koreans or Cubans have been imprisoned or killed for their religious beliefs, sexuality or for criticising their governments? Those lists are endless and will never be known.
How many people have died in Antarctica in the last 60 years? 17 or 18? Be serious.
This list is silly, and biased.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
USA USA USA F you liberal scum!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
el duderino – April 8th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
How many Americans have been imprisoned or killed for their religious beliefs, sexuality or for criticising their governments? Name one.
>
Martin Luther King, Matthew Shepard, Don Siegelman
April 8th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
I am very happy and comfortable with living in the US. I for one do not see tanks outside of my house and suicide bombers at the grocery store. Sure there are not such safe places, all major cities have those areas…as do some random country places, but all in all I’m happy to live in America, we might not have the best leadership right now, but at least I’m free to do the things I want to do and live the way I want to live. People put the US down all the time, and on occasion I do too, but I would never leave, I would never want to live any where else.
)
April 8th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
I so knew that Iraq MUST be item no.1 in this list…
April 8th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
This is just ignorant propaganda.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
I had a friend pop into town for a wedding. He arranged for bodyguards to meet him at the airport; in this case they were merely well-armed cousins who shuttled him directly to a family house behind intimidating spiked-iron fences.
Ooops, I forgot that the town was Port Au Prince, Haiti.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
“For anyone traveling to Brazil, it is not a matter of whether you get mugged, it is a matter of when!”
LOOOOOL
That’s an ABSURD!
Really! Have you ever been in Brazil?
April 8th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Post 182 – Skeev:
Lucky duck! I saw the tour dates on his website and he’s skipped right over me. That’s what I get for living in the comedy black whole of the USA, AKA Buffalo, NY. We get decent concerts, but comedy? Hardly ever.
I like my women like I like my coffee, hot and strong, with a spoon in them! Hehe!
April 9th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Hey. Interesting list. Mind giving me the sources you used? I’m not trying to twist your dick or anything, just interested.
spl
April 9th, 2008 at 12:02 am
“Me: This bird starts with “k”. It lives in New Zealand. It cannot fly …
Student (puts hand up): Sheep.”
astraya – well, ok, it’s not exactly a bird…but surely the student was almost correct..
He/she was thinking ” ‘kin sheep”
April 9th, 2008 at 12:49 am
“Where in his book does he say this?”
blogball – from the front cover to the back cover – it’s called a “theme”; most good books have one.
Have you actually read that book ? If you had you would not have asked the question. Even if you disagree with Clarke’s views, his message is very clear.
Let me, for example, paraphrase one of Clarke’s reminiscences from the book (I don’t have my copy with me)..
Scene – the immediate aftermath of 9/11; Clarke is at the Whitehouse for a security meeting. Remember, Clarke was on the US National Security Council. People like Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Rumsfeld etc were there (maybe the Pres. – I can’t remember).
Committee Member : “We’re going after the terrorists. We’re warming up the military for an invasion”
Clarke (thinks) “Hmm…I wonder what the weather is like in Afghanistan this time of year?”
Committee Member : “Yep. We’re going into Iraq”
Clarke : “Uh…heh…I think you mean Afghanistan !?”
Committee Member : “Nope. Iraq”
Clarke (thinks) : “WTF ? Iraq ? Iraq ?”
So, tell me…you have the National Security Council of world’s biggest super-power meeting to discuss a post-attack retaliatory invasion. And one of the key members (the Chief Counter-Terrorism Advisor, of all people) is thinking “but wait…we’re going to invade the wrong country!!”.
Is that a WTF moment or not ? Bizarre by anybody’s definition. Virtually the entire book is centered on this (which also covers the “irrelevant” part as well).
However, for the “irrelevant” part let me also add a quote from wikipedia when talking about the book (sorry, as I said, I don’t have my copy with me) : “…invasion of Iraq, which Clarke feels greatly hampered the war on terror, and was a distraction from the real terrorists.”
And blogball, don’t mistake my view as being anti-American, because I’m not. Though I’m a NZ’er, I’m also a British citizen and resident, and I feel exactly the same way about the British involvement in Iraq.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:05 am
Well – this certainly turned in to a storm
It is a shame that DentShop didn’t show up to make a few comments though. Never mind – it is another day and another list and we can all smile and be friends again!
April 9th, 2008 at 1:25 am
“Well – this certainly turned in to a storm”
Heh..was there ever any doubt ?
April 9th, 2008 at 1:30 am
jfrater – hmm. I see 297 comments (prior to this) but the counter at the top of the page says 298 ?
April 9th, 2008 at 1:36 am
I’ll put my 2 cents in here and say that as an American citizen, I’ve never been anywhere in the states where I felt unsafe. Suffice to say, I wouldn’t walk around L.A. or Chicago alone at 3 am. I’m not stupid.
This reminds me of a story a friend of mine told me about getting mugged in San Francisco- two black guys walked up to him. One held him, while the other searched his pockets. They had no weapons. They took his wallet and walked away. My friend said, “hey, take the money, but that wallet has everything, my I.D., my social security card, everything.” So the men removed the money and threw the wallet back. Oddly, there’s something honorable in that.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:43 am
kiwiboi: oh – that is because the top number includes trackbacks but I don’t show trackbacks in the comments because they are ugly and not really a part of the comments. I haven’t figured out how to get the number for each separately yet
jasontimmer: I think you could also say there was something stupid in that- for two reasons: 1 – fingerprints, and 2 – identity theft – they could have opened credit cards in his name and made much MORE money
I am, of course, just saying – I certainly don’t recommend that anyone do that!
April 9th, 2008 at 1:49 am
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where is Burma?!? Are you insane Jfrater?
April 9th, 2008 at 3:03 am
flamiejamie: Hey! I didn’t write the list – I just posted it!
April 9th, 2008 at 3:22 am
I say this as a Canadian…your write up about the U.S. is pure left wing BS!! As for those so called ‘right wing’ terror groups, you might want to give your head a shake and realize that it is left wing terror groups in the U.S. that pose the greatest danger…ie eco nuts, animal right nuts, islamic terror groups etc etc…
And for the record…up here in Canada, we also have a tonne of guns….we just don’t have the gang problem (yet) in the inner cities that America does…guns are not the problem…
And in Canada, we have a higher per capita suicide rate…oooohhhhh….does that make us dangerous?? What an idiotic point provided by the author….
And where..pray tell was Pakistan…perhaps the most dangerous nation on earth considering they are teeming with islamic fanatics ….
Otherwise, aside from your US hatred, fairly good list!
April 9th, 2008 at 3:24 am
whats with all the hatemongering nutjobs posing as patriots invading the comments section on this list and blaming jfrater for a list he didnt write?did some neocon mouthpiece link this list on their hateblog telling their godwarriors to fight the good fight?
grow up.not every criticism on the US is a liberal conspiracy to undermine our great nation.
sure adding the us to a top 10 of most dangerous places in the world is a bit of a stretch.but those of you trying to defend it by calling it the safest place on earth are just ignorant.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:28 am
FDGS: US Crime stats:
New York http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=New%20York&state=NY
Los Angeles http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Los%20Angeles&state=CA
Murder Capital USA Washington, DC http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Washington&state=DC
My Home, Wouldn’t Trade It: Durham, North Carolina: http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Durham&state=NC
Scared? I’m not.
Perspective; Iraq: https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=60625, haw fun sorting those!
April 9th, 2008 at 3:29 am
Have, sorry I screwed up one and missed another Entirely.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:40 am
Having been to all three countries South Africa seemed safer than Colombia and Brazil. In terms of urban areas I know someone who lived and worked in Johannesburg and Sao Paulo in the late 90’s/early 00’s, and he’s in no doubt Sao Paulo is more dangerous. This was a few years ago though when Sao Paulo’s murders were twice as high, Johannesburg’s murder rate has also dropped considerably in the same time but about half as much (-25% compared to SP’s -50%). Since the huge decline in murders of Medellin and Bogota, Brazil now has the most dangerous big cities in the world along with Iraq.
Don’t get taken in by all this ‘the violence in Colombia is way out in the wilderness’ stereotype, Medellin had a mind-numbing murder rate for years. Even excluding the now much safer Bogota/Medellin, Colombia probably has the world’s most dangerous smaller cities – particularly in the Valle del Cauca region (Tulua, Buga, Cartago, Palmira, Buenaventura and the ‘getting safer’ but still significantly dangerous large city of Cali).
El Salvador should be at least as high as Brazil and South Africa, and Colombia deserved 2nd in 2001/02 but ought to be a couple of places lower currently.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:48 am
It’s just occured to me, where’s Venezuela?
April 9th, 2008 at 3:50 am
How about a “top ten safest places to live?”
April 9th, 2008 at 3:59 am
KRH: There is one of those coming soon
April 9th, 2008 at 4:00 am
“Otherwise, aside from your US hatred, fairly good list!”
Devon – I think if you read the earlier comments, we were waiting for the list author to show up and – in particular – defend his inclusion of the US. He didn’t show ! I don’t see any rampant US hatred of any worth in the comments though.
When jfrater contemplated taking the US off of the list nobody was gung ho either way; but we all recognised that the US should not be on there (by any rational criteria, in any case).
On balance the comments were generally ok – recognising that there will always be arguments over lists like this, which are always potentially inflammatory. The list itself was, in my opinion, not only flawed, but poorly presented.
April 9th, 2008 at 4:13 am
Devon: well ur never gonna have gang problems if the whole nation shares just one tonne of guns.
Also, someone asked for a comparison between pre and post war Iraq. Well I cant give a perfect comparison because I dont live there, but my parents did take my sister to Baghdad when she was 2 years old. This was back in 1988. If they felt it was safe enough to take an infant to some country I for one surely think it was relatively safer back then… relatively. I mean, u could visit the place and come back with all limbs intact.
But then again who knew what went on behind the scenes.
And, arise Sir Randall for thou have brilliantly laid out facts, and defended the truth where needeth be!
April 9th, 2008 at 4:13 am
I would want to visit Antarctica too! But yes, it does seem dangerous. Also, I agree with the US being a bonus. But not because the citizens have guns, it’s because the police are out of control.
April 9th, 2008 at 4:26 am
The list does look like an excuse to lead-in to some U.S. bashing.
I haven’t read all the comments because both my computer(acting up), and I are sick. [cough, sneeze, cough]
April 9th, 2008 at 4:26 am
Colombia is a lovely country with friendly people and beautiful cities. I had nohting but good experiences all the time I was there, and even the soldiers you often see because of US pressure on the country are polite and competent – unlike the ‘police’ in other places. Colombia suffers continual slander, such as this article, only because of the US wish to punish it for being a staging post for drugs. Go there. You’ll like it.
April 9th, 2008 at 4:33 am
Just a little note to whomever commented about the women in Iraq being oppressed and thankful for the invasion. Sorry but you’re wrong. Saddam was a murdering bastard, but he was a secular murdering bastard. Women are worse off now than they were with Saddam due to the threat of Islamic fundamentalists. Women were protected by Iraqi law; they had the right to vote, the right of equal access to education, the right to run for political office and the right to own property. Far better off than almost any other middle eastern country. The same cannot be said now; Islamic fundamentalists are finding another foot-hold in the middle east as a direct result of American foreign policy.
Randall is correct about Afghanistan; the war in Iraq diverted resources that should have been used to finish what was started – In my opinion the only place the American’s have any bloody right to be – Our Canadian soldiers are going to be there forever, cleaning up the mess and protecting the civilian population. By the way, we are not hated there.
April 9th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Sorry, time is limited, so I haven’t read every comment.
As kakazed said, this list isn’t even close to the real South-Africa. The security (2 weeks ago, a security guard was the rapist and murderer of a 19 year old dancer) in most of the gated communities are the crime contacts, telling the baddies which house is open for raping, stealing and murdering. Of course hijacking is an easy way to get a car and a rape victim at the same time. There isn’t any hostage taking as far as I’m aware of because life isn’t worth that much.
Quick link: http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2301821,00.html
Check out related articles…
My view, racism is alive and well.
Worth mentioning is Zimbabwe, who just yesterday started again taking farms from the “imperialist whites” (since this started a few years back, its economy dropped to record lows. In 1987 inflation averaged 11.9 percent. It surged to an official record of 100,586 percent in January 2008
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-1662_2301509,00.html
And its president (Robert Mugabe) is probably one of the most ruthless and corrupt leaders in Africa, beating and killing those who doesn’t vote for him in elections. He has been postponing the release of voting numbers for 2 weeks now.
Anyway, have a good day and try to stay alive.
April 9th, 2008 at 4:52 am
Chesty,
I greatly appreciate everything you’ve done, everything this country has done. I still have friends and family serving over there, though I am not in the service, a big part of me is.
I’ve seen the other side, the side of dictatorship and oppression… so this war in my opinion, is not for “nothing”. Its nothing for people that don’t care about anything other than themselves.
April 9th, 2008 at 5:11 am
USA & Antarctica are up there, but Israel, Pakistan & Bangladesh are not
LOL @ this list
April 9th, 2008 at 5:17 am
Top ten safest places to live eh?
1 with your mom
2 surrounded by weapons
lol
seriously, jfrater wrote this and dentshop is a made up name isn’t it???? HAHAHA…
And Japan is the most dangerous place to live…so much electricity it makes your hair stand on end and terrible drivers. Fast and Furious: Tokyo Drift LOLZ
April 9th, 2008 at 5:19 am
and i like how all the countries have these pictures of mauraders and shit and the US pic is a fucking SWAT team duo, the PROTECTORS of this country from the gangs and criminals. DentShop is a moron.
April 9th, 2008 at 5:37 am
@AT86: You shouldn’t bother too much, because when you make a statement which hurts people’s minds, they throw in a non-sequitur about you nickname and such and tend to insult you instead of debating like an adult.
@SlickWilly: Well, let’s talk a bit about that “irrational hatred” toward USA. Unlike most of the US citizens, I’ve spent a bit of my life growing up during a war. Then the NATO forces arrive, “to preserve peace” and “protect civilians”.
So what do they do? They almost kill my wife’s entire family ON PURPOSE, as a PROVOCATION and FOR FUN. You might ask, how is that?
Well, my wife’s family was just going home from the country in a car. There was a US tank coming from the opposite direction. The tank crossed to their side of the road ON PURPOSE. They had to drive their car *off the road* and nearly got killed.
What did the soldiers do? They laughed. It was purely amusing to them. Preserving peace? I’d say no. I’d say preserving war.
Should they love the US? Well, you tell me.
(Don’t even think of saying that this is an isolated example of bad military discipline, because this is just one out of many similar situations.)
“financial and military support”? You mean buying out everything profitable in my country? How the heck does that help me – or my country – in any possible way??
@Randall:
“B) We were assisting Britain and Russia in their war against Germany BEFORE the declaration, because Germany was seen as a THREAT to our country and to our CIVILIZATION in general—not because “the jews” wanted us to fight.”
Oh, okay. But can you explain, if Nazi Germany was such a big threat, why did the US send smaller shipments of ammo and weaponry every time those damn Russians started kicking some Nazi ass? Because they wanted Russians to live peacefully and make love, not war?
“Umm maybe to overthrow, a ruthless dictator who for the past 40 years, was raping, murdering, and supressing the people of iraq, not too mention violating the agreement that was arranged by the UN the last time he got froggy?””
Ah, you mean the same leader the US/CIA put in power? Well done, US! (insert three cheers and a pat on the back here; with the pat on the back to be delivered)
April 9th, 2008 at 5:47 am
I’m so happy that I live in Croatia and nobody knows about my country. I don’t lock my house, I don’t lock my car. It’s safe, and beautiful. Of course Croatian government payed me a lot of money for this post, so this summer will be invasion on Croatian coast. lol
April 9th, 2008 at 5:55 am
Of course, the fact that I’ve mentioned before that I hate my government as much as I hate yours doesn’t mean anything to you, right? Because I’m just a stupid, uneducated, filthy Balkan freak? Right.
I hate the country, I hate the politicians, I hate the Balkan mentality, all the people, and pretty much anything you can think of.
But okay, let’s forget about that; I want you to tell me how is your posted relevant to this discussion? You do know what non-sequitur means, right? (http://www.google.com)
April 9th, 2008 at 5:56 am
Is most dangerous cities next? Im in St. Louis…. thinking I might be on that list!!!
April 9th, 2008 at 6:01 am
Mindanao, Philippines is safe, well there are a few exceptions here and there. But i lived in Mindanao for 6 years and it was all peaceful.
How i wish Afghanistan would be a better place in the future. Also, i think the USA should stop being so nosy and should just mind their own business. Always threatening to wage war against nations. Just making more enemies… I wonder what happens when the weapons of mass destructions allegations are real and these countries plot together against the USA… oh well.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:06 am
someone right a 15 most dangerous cities list, id like to see where detroit and new york stack up against the rest of the world
April 9th, 2008 at 6:07 am
write**
April 9th, 2008 at 6:09 am
dr. Hannibal Lecter – schitzophrenia is a treatable condition bud!
April 9th, 2008 at 6:15 am
Hopefully this will be my final word on this list… so just a few points:
A) In retrospect I think this list would have been a good idea—you see these lists of “dangerous places” pop up from time to time (and of course, the selections change over the years–though, sad to say, not all that much) but as I noted early on, the list was discredited because the writer chose to (apparently) turn it into an excuse for wildly off-the-mark America bashing. And not even for truly logical reasons; one may fairly bash America these days for its offensive foreign policy and/or its dalliance with crazy right-wing (and religious) extremism, or its continuing love for the gun… but to try to paint it as an unsafe place for visitors was not only transparent and clumsy, it was pretty dumb. FBI statistics, as I understand it, show violent crime dropping in most areas of the country, except a few standouts… and I can’t swear to this, but I don’t think there was any rise in crimes against tourists or foreigners–and if anything, these might have fallen as well.
At first I thought that, other than the inclusion of the US, it was a good list… but then I had second thoughts…. it’s quite true, for instance, that the large (and they ARE large) cities of Brazil have become more dangerous in recent years—at least if we go by reports and statistics. How many of these crimes are targeted at *tourists* however, is a question. Also, the rest of the country still seems safe. I have a good friend who has a Brazilian girlfriend–she’s visiting at present, and reports that while immense Sao Paolo can be pretty nasty, the smaller Brazilian cities are probably not much more dangerous than any large American city. You just need to be careful where you go, and stick to the tourist areas.
I’m not all that sure that Colombia should be here either, though it has, perhaps, a better claim to a spot on the list. The concern with Colombia, though, is that there are still far *more* dangerous spots. Haiti, for instance. But there are many others. Places that also should have edged out Russia.
B) There are a few apologists for the Bush administration on this thread…the lunatic 20% that still support him unquestioningly, out there in Jesusland. These people can rant all they want. It changes not a bit of the fact that history will judge their bully/asshole president the worst in probably a hundred years–his policies utter failures, his personality (and especially that of his VP’s) on the verge of sociopathic. I never thought that in my lifetime I would see a president *worse* than Richard Nixon. But it happened.
C) Somebody–I think “everlast”, presented a long note full of nonsense, attempting to rationalize and explain (excuse) Bush’s strategies. Keypoint to this was that we needed to make Al Qaeda “stand and fight.” Rubbish. Al Qaeda is not one, contained organization–it is a loosely connected series of groups with essentially parallel aims. But in any case, this is not the way to defeat terrorism–by giving extremists further excuses to hate us, and more angry people to draw their support (and suicide bombers) from. The way to deal with this situation was 1) to CRUSH the Taliban–chief supporters of the group that perpetrated 9/11, not only for reasons of pure justice, but to teach similar minded governments that attacks such as 9/11 WILL be met with overwhelming punishment—and 2) to destroy, as much as possible, the network of Al Qaeda operating within Afghanistan, to in essence chop off the head so that the body was weakened. This wouldn’t end the threat of Al Qaeda, but it would be a first step. KEY to this would have been the capture–or assassination–of Osama Bin Laden. EVEN if only for symbolic reasons, it would have been a blow to his supporters–but it also would have served JUSTICE. Me–I as a good American and a believer in our principles, I would have preferred to see Bin Laden given a fair trial in Washington—but I would have also been okay with seeing his head on a pike outside the Capitol Building. I don’t like my country acting imperial, and I’ll oppose it vehemently—but if imperial we are, then sometimes you gotta act like it.
However, NONE of this was accomplished, except that the higher network of Al Qaeda was weakened. The Taliban are staging a comeback, and Bin Laden was not captured. Not enough troops were committed to Afghanistan to accomplish this in the beginning–and still to this day.
Iraq had NOTHING to do with Al Qaeda. To claim otherwise is the worst kind of confabulation.
Lastly–the way to deal with terrorism is not to make them “stand and fight”—the way to deal with it is to attack it at the roots–the causes. There are huge groups of angry, disenfranchised people throughout the Middle East, living in oppressive regimes. They see the United States not as a friend, but as a mortal enemy. There are WAYS to reach out to these people and to repair our image—but this is not accomplished by standing by ineffectually, doing nothing concrete to solve the Palestinian question–which is one of the root excuses for Arab anger (even though I believe this to BE only an excuse) nor is it accomplished by continued support for dictators and oppressive regimes in the Middle East. Nor is it accomplished by refusing to talk to those people and governments we “don’t like.” Terrorism isn’t ordinary war-producing hostility, the kind that is driven by governments; it is, rather, a grass-roots anger problem that must be dealt with by dealing with PEOPLE directly. It is not JUST a military issue… it is a military/police/diplomatic/humanitarian issue.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:17 am
on the description of iraq it refers it’s “rich history”. i am sincerely asking this question, what is this rich history? it seems as though this has been a nation waging war for most of humanity’s existence.
please enlighten me.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:20 am
MKlong: Im in St.Louis, I know we where number one for a while. I think Atlanta is now number one now if i’m not mistaken.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:23 am
DiscHuker: it was part of Mesopotamia (with part of Iran) – one of the great ancient civilizations. And no doubt you have heard of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon
Wikipedia says: “Cities in Mesopotamia later served as capitals of the Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Mitanni, Neo-Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian, Parthian, Sassanid and Abbasid empires” It was, at one time, one of the most scientifically, mathematically, and philosophically advanced nations in the world. Mesopotamian religion was the first to be recorded. It was once called the Cradle of Civilization.
It is also speculated on as the location of the Garden of Eden (if you believe in it). And additionally it is regarded as the location of the Tower of Babel.
It has a very ancient, very beautiful, and very rich history. What a great shame it is in the state it is in now.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:26 am
“on the description of iraq it refers it’s “rich history”.”
DiscHuker – it’s true. A rich and fascinating history, in fact. Start with wikipedia’s entry on Iraq if you want a potted history.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:34 am
Lecter:
I realize English isn’t your first language, but even so, you make ZERO sense. I don’t even understand what the hell it is you’re asking me/challenging me about. Here’s what you wrote:
I had said:
“B) We were assisting Britain and Russia in their war against Germany BEFORE the declaration, because Germany was seen as a THREAT to our country and to our CIVILIZATION in general—not because “the jews” wanted us to fight.”
Your response:
“Oh, okay. But can you explain, if Nazi Germany was such a big threat, why did the US send smaller shipments of ammo and weaponry every time those damn Russians started kicking some Nazi ass? Because they wanted Russians to live peacefully and make love, not war?”
Now what the HELL are you trying to say? I can’t even understand it! Why did the US send SMALLER shipments of ammo? TO WHOM? And what do you mean by “smaller” shipments? What ARE you talking about? Explain whatever “point” it is you’re trying to make—because until you do, I can’t answer it.
I WARN you, however–I’ve had a run in with you before—I am not impressed by your Balkan nonsense–what are you, by the way, a Serb? But I have to caution you on a couple things—you are NOT dealing with some yahoo here who knows nothing about the history of WWII… moreover, *I* am not the product—as you probably are—of a former communist and totalitarian state which DUPED its citizenry into believing all kinds of LIES and nonsense about WWII along with a lot of other bullshit about the US. Come at me with your propaganda and falsehoods, Lecter, and I will *bury* you in a pile of FACTS and TRUTH so deep you wouldn’t be able to dig yourself out without a steam shovel.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:44 am
Yeah, what Randall said!
oops, maybe now isn’t the time to be a smart ass.
lol
April 9th, 2008 at 6:52 am
jfrater: see #251 above, dont want you to have the wrong impression of me.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:53 am
jayfray and kiwiboi: thanks, i guess i should have been more specific, or less confusing. i am aware of their ancient history, i.e. biblical times. without trying to sound pissy, what have they done lately, i.e. modern history?
April 9th, 2008 at 7:07 am
Settle down, gun nuts. The article isnt saying that the 200 million guns are the only thing “making the USA dangerous”. It’s saying that the guns make it easier to accomplish the 50 murders and other violent crimes that happen every day.
The world’s highest rate of violent crime, murder, pedestrian deaths and traffic deaths are what make this place dangerous to visitors.
PS: it’s not listed as #3, it’s listed as the “Bonus” one.
April 9th, 2008 at 7:10 am
The person who created the list had the U.S. at #3. jFrater took it off… it was intended to be very high on the list.
April 9th, 2008 at 7:11 am
My “point” is, gosh..
Well, you said that the US was helping Britain and Russia, before getting involved in the war directly, right? That is true.
But..every time the Russians would gain supremacy on the eastern front, US would send LESS ammo and LESS weaponry, if you catch my drift. Instead, say, 1000000000000 bullets, they would get 1000 bullets. I hope that will clear things up, I know “smaller” _was_ probably an unhappy choice of expression, I apologize.
It is nice though, how you avoid to comment the rest of my post.
Now, you “WARN” me? Are you going to bleed on me? I’m not impressed by your “my grandmother fought in The War” too. I have many such ancestors, if you recall, that same war was actually fought here, not in the states (how convenient).
I’m not a Serb, I have mixed blood of many nations and hate them all. Incidentally, I happen to live in Croatia, so now you can say “Croatian nonsense” instead of “Balkan nonsense”, the discrimination is more precise.
Further, what you know about WWII is probably not enough. I’m not saying that I know enough, though. We’ve only read books written by the winning side. I suggest for both of us to read more books written in German, Russian and other languages. Then we can have our little piss-contest.
So, as much as you think I’m duped, I tend to believe that the same thing is happening in the US. You think I believe in falsehoods, but you didn’t read the links I’ve sent you simply because they come from a domain “marxists.org”? Did you read the Rockefeller file? No. Did you see Zeitgeist? No. And I’m the victim of propaganda?
And please, don’t generalize. You think that I think all the US citizens are dumb assholes. I don’t. Most are. But it’s the same here in Croatia. The fact is, most people _are_ dumb. Period.
I have a problem with the US, because your government has too much power and too much hypocrisy. Way too much. That is all. I know you will think of this as a personal attack, you obviously love your country (which, in my opinion, is a mistake, regardless of the country you are in), but it’s not. I only attack the US foreign policy, the humorous “patriot act” and such nonsensical bullschmidt, which affects innocent people – inside and outside US.
And please, oh please, bury me in a pile of facts and truth instead of non-amusing insults like before.
April 9th, 2008 at 7:12 am
Otay: thanks
I am glad I read you right the first time
April 9th, 2008 at 7:16 am
To everyone who is bashing guns and gun control laws: you do realize that there was robbery, rape, murder, and other violent crime BEFORE the invention of the hand gun and assault rifle, don’t you?
April 9th, 2008 at 7:36 am
troyfamu: Thank you, most don’t realize that, they just see the number of people with guns and assume that we are all using it to murder. I personally have a bb gun, and handle my dad’s shotgun. I never hurt anybody, except those frisky ass deer
April 9th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Lecter: I’m very sorry if you or your family ever felt victimized by American forces. Trust me, the majority of US citizens don’t like to send our troops into other countries. Most of the time, if they are there, its because an unscrupulous leader – “armchair generals,” if you will – decided it was in our “best interest.” However, there *is* an irrational hatred of America that exists en masse in that part of the world. Yes, irrational. Irrational in its intensity and irrational in its pointedness. I’m not at all claiming that the US is blameless. I don’t feel I’m an apologist, I will hold my leaders accountable for what I feel is poor policy, including use of the military. However, because the US is in a position of such inscrutible power, we are the proverbial pinata of the world stage. It has become fashionable for many countries to blame their economic woes and the failure of their own social policies on the US, because 1) it is a socially acceptable outlet, and 2) it takes the heat off of them. This is particularly bad in parts of the world where education is poor and hardship is wide spread. I’m *not* saying the US shouldn’t be held accountable for its follies, I’m saying that, like it or not, much of the hatred that exists towards the US is disproportionate to its reasons.
Also, I might point out, you seem to be a very hateful person. There are many things you claim to hate. I also wouldn’t expect an irrationally hateful person to understand about irrational hatred.
April 9th, 2008 at 7:52 am
where is pakistan?
April 9th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Just one other comment to those who say that crime only happens in the city and not out in suburban areas… uh, where are you getting your data from?
Here are a couple facts to consider:
According to the latest FBI Crime Statistics, violent crimes in large cities (population 1 million and over) actually DECREASED overall by .4 percent. During the same time frame (2004-2005) violent crime INCREASED in Suburban areas by 1.9 percent. The overall national average was a 2.3 percent increase.
And according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics: In 2006, about 68% of all murders, 42% of all robberies, and 22% of all aggravated assaults that were reported to the police were committed with a firearm.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:00 am
troyfamu:
No one disputes that there were violent crimes before the invention of hanguns and assault rifles. Duh. That’s such a cliche argument posed by “my constitutional right to bear arms” junkies.
The difference (and the point of the argument) is the number and frequency of violent crimes that have increased since then.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:13 am
troyfamu – Good point! Crime is a product of civilization, not a product of a civilizations inventions!!!
April 9th, 2008 at 8:13 am
square: Crimes have increased, but those that want to ban them don’t realize how unsafe we would be in our own homes.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:14 am
I really found this list interesting. I’d like to know the safest places to travel though, that would make a great list.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:21 am
an interesting dichotomy that is seeming to raise up is people who state that the government is trampling the constitution in many areas, and are very disturbed by this belief, and then get on gun “nuts” for claiming their constitutional rights.
i have only shot a gun one time, at a gun range, and i do not own any so i have no bias to lean toward. just an observation.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:27 am
The ONLY factor that has any bearing on the outcome is a persons intent. If you intend on killing someone, are you going to use a rock? Most likely not! You are going to most likely use a gun. Same thing with taking a trip, are you going to walk? NO, you are either going to drive, ride, or fly!
Every population has its share of persons with bad intentions. You cannot generalize a population based on the actions of a small portion of the whole. There are 300 million people in the United States. The percentage of violent offenders of that number is extremely low. Compare that statistic to other regions of the world….THEN make your list!
April 9th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Csimmons; I am safe in my own home and I don’t have a gun. In fact I don’t even lock my house. Know why? Because I don’t have to worry about 300,000,000 hand guns floating about my country. In case you think I live in some safe gated community, I don’t. I live in a small town (outside a military base, always fairly poor areas) with a huge oxy/perc problem. We don’t have armed robberies (2 in the 20 years I’ve lived here, and once was the town bank with poor service – people secretly rejoiced) because the crack/perc heads have little access to firearms.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:48 am
I personally plan to stay in Canada
April 9th, 2008 at 8:49 am
@square, yes and population levels have drastically risen since that time to, ya think that might have to do with it???
@Disc, a lot of the extreme leftist, believe totally in freedoms and rights, especially free speech….as long as you agree with everything they say.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Lecter:
I didn’t “avoid” commenting on the rest of your post–I answered what was DIRECTED at me. You only directed this half-intelligible Russian comment at me. THAT is what I responded to.
Now. You make this *claim* that US aid to the USSR “got smaller” everytime the USSR gained “supremacy” on the Eastern Front. Where is your evidence for this claim? State the source or sources. Because to my knowledge there *was no* such “drawing down” of aid to the USSR. If there were fluctuations in aid, it could have been due to any number of causes. Aid was being delivered to the USSR by the US *primarily* via Vladivostok or through Iran at the border. From time to time there may have been ebbs and flows through these two locales, or through other, less important routes, due to exigencies of the war–but I know of no policy by the US to *systematically* draw down aid to the USSR whenever they (the Russians) were winning. That’s a silly and highly unlikely accusation.
It is possible that you’re confusing this for a draw down of US aid once the USSR was producing enough of its OWN war materiel and no longer needed US assistance… and yes, this would have occurred once the USSR was advancing on their home front enough to recapture vital lands, rail and river routes, and factory sites. But again, I am not aware of any such draw down–not implemented as a POLICY at any rate. If you have proof of it (which I HIGHLY doubt you do) then I suggest you produce it. It would be of immense historical value.
And YES, Lecter… I DO warn you, because you’ve shot your mouth off before with no support for things you allege. Your attitude has been that YOU know more than we stupid and ill-informed Americans. You have yet to prove it or make even the most basic, viable argument to support your assertions.
And yes–I WILL give you the attitude about my family having fought in WWII—what did YOUR family do in that war? I’m sure they suffered—but your earlier assertion, a long time back, was that the US was NOT vital to allied victory in WWII… an incredibly stupid, ignorant, and offensive statement.
April 9th, 2008 at 9:12 am
About Brazil: Sadly you’re right! You’ll be scared if you visit some poor side of major cities, a bunch of idiot teens dressed like 50cent and listening american black music. Girls dressed like whores aka Beyouncé-like look. People makes this beautiful country this shit. Nobody wants to study, no culture, nobody reads books, throw paper in the ground and no shame to live like pigs. The cities have a peeh smells, LOL. If Police don’t do nothing, they’re useless, if they do, the shit called ‘Human Rights’ appears to help thieves, prisioners and whatever. Be calm! kidnappings only happens to the people who lives here!
– Foreign usually only being robbed. -___-
April 9th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Mom: Yes, but here in America, A lot more crimes happen at night, so if there were no guns, then those people in bad neighborhoods are in danger.
April 9th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Ah! “the piranhas are waiting.” , here ‘piranhas’ are a fluffy definition for whores too! hehe!
April 9th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Csimmons: Can you provide a source on that statistic?
April 9th, 2008 at 9:41 am
I live in rural USA, my truck is always parked in my driveway with the keys in the ignition. The doors to my home have not been locked in 30 years, with the exception of going on vacations. I have NEVER felt unsafe in my home, except when i was a kid in the 70’s and the Big Foot (sasquatch) stories and the cattle mutilations were taking place…..what do you expect from a child…lol.
Seriously though, there are definately places in the United States that i would be leary of, and would definately use common sense if i absolutely had to be in one of those areas. I have been all over the United States, with exception of the NE region. I have never been in a place where i felt my life or safety may be in immediate danger.
Every large city in the world has areas that are of higher risk than others. Be smart while travelling to an unfamiliar area and find out what areas are best to avoid. Be informed and use common sense and you will greatly reduce your risk of running into trouble.
April 9th, 2008 at 9:49 am
I have to agree Colombia is no walk in the park but you have very old information you might want to think of updating it. pablo escobar was killed by the colombian police many many years ago. and the crime though we still have a lot of it has reduced alot. still I agree we still desrver to be in the list because of the FARC guerrilas the country has done a lot to fix this.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Otay; I agree, rural areas are for the most part safe. I’m quite sure your feeling of safety is not because of your firearms. It is because of where you live. The point I am trying to make, is that I live in a depressed area, not my street, but my town. In fact there is/was a running joke about how to identify folks from _______, it was because they automatically assumed the position. You know the one with hands on trunk and legs spread wide apart. So I live in an area with more than average poverty, more than average drug abuse, and a high incidence of alcoholism (ex-military families) and we still suffer little or no gun violence. It is only because hand-guns are strictly controlled here. No other reason.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Mom424 – Thank you for pointing that out. No, my sense of security does not come from my firearms. I do not own firearms because i feel that someday i may need to protect myself from another person. I would feel the same sense of security without them. I also would like to add that in my hometown, there is a huge methamphetamine problem. Which has definately increased the larceny rate, but has had NO change on the rate of crimes involving firearms.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:35 am
How about Mexico? lol I donno.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:41 am
As far as gun control is concerned, I have only this to say: if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. My feeling is, criminals will find a way to get weapons, even if they are banned. That being said, the only people suffering from a ban would be honest, law-abiding, responsible gun owners.
Mom424: Have guns always been banned in Canada, or was this a more recent policy? (i.e. in the last 40 years or so) I just don’t think that America would be better off if we banned guns now, having had a long tradition of legal firearms. The channels are open much too wide to stem the flow of illegal weapons even if they are outlawed.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:46 am
slick: Yeah, and hunters would be equally pissed. As well as down-home-racoon-eating rednecks.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Csimmons: I’m pretty sure both of those fall under honest and law-abiding. Hunters, in general, are pretty responsible. The jury is still out on down-home, raccoon-eating rednecks.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:51 am
slick: Do I fall under that category? Well there was that one time in Las Vegas….
April 9th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Csimmons: hey, Hey, HEY!…What happens in Vegas *stays* in Vegas. I made sure to promise myself that when I came home from my last trip there. (Coincidentally, I think that is Nevada’s state motto.)
April 9th, 2008 at 11:03 am
what happens in vegas should go home with whomever it happens to. we don’t want your dirty secrets hanging around here. i’m trying to raise a family!
April 9th, 2008 at 11:07 am
downhighway and slick: It’s more like “What happens in Vegas stays on YouTube”
April 9th, 2008 at 11:14 am
and kathryn’s comment (#281 or somewhere around there) isn’t very fair. isn’t camden one of the worse places in the country?
i grew up about 50 miles upstate from NYC, and have lived in las vegas for the past 4 years. i have never seen any random acts of violence. most people in this country are generally nice people.
April 9th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Csimmons: Hahaha…:)
April 9th, 2008 at 11:22 am
freaking people. they all come here and goes crazy like we have no laws or something.
April 9th, 2008 at 11:26 am
downhighway: Well SOO-ORRYYY if I occasionally like to drive out to Las Vegas, have indiscriminate sex with as many hookers I can get my hands on, smack around the locals, scream at the tourists, do a bunch of blow and shit my life-savings away. That doesn’t make me a bad person! I’m drunk for most of it too, and you know what they say: if you can’t remember it, it didn’t happen. I can’t remember who wrote that statement but its true. Wait…
April 9th, 2008 at 11:30 am
slick: Just don’t have a friend with a camera phone on hand when you go. There should be a law about friends with cameras, if he brings one to vegas or a bachelor party, then the other friends have the right to kill him and hide his body in death valley and tell his wife that he got drunk and just kept on driving.
April 9th, 2008 at 11:35 am
hey, i’m down with being drunk.
i love the open container law. or lack of.
and gambling is the shit.
and screaming at tourists? awesome, but i only do it when i’m trying to make a right hand turn onto the strip.
i’m not much of a blow person.
and i don’t need illegal hookers.
ok i don’t give a damn. come here and party. i would do it too if i were single and had no kid.
and what, you can write “downhighway” but added the “61″ is too much work?
April 9th, 2008 at 11:45 am
down: I refuse to write the highway and 61 now!
April 9th, 2008 at 11:50 am
oh, now i’ve gone and done it!
April 9th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Mom424: so are you saying that gun violence is worse than other violence?
Square: I’m not a “my constitutional right to bear arms” junkie. In fact, I don’t own any fire arms. But I do respect the right of ANY person to leagally own fire arms. I see them as tools more than weapons. Someone also made the point that increased population is directly related to increased crime. We would need percentages to see the increase per capita.
Do anti-gun people want to have stronger gun control laws because of the people who are dying? In that case, we should have stronger alcohol laws, car ownership laws, etc. OR, instead of all of these freaking new laws we should teach the next generation to be resposible for their own actions.
April 9th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
I live in America, and honestly, I feel perfectly safe.
Of course, my town statistically, is insanely safe.
Statistically, our Violent-Crime rate is 48% lower than the national average,
The joke is that everyone smokes too much pot to hurt anybody else.
That probably has some truth to it….about 85% of everyone over the age of 14-15 smokes a LOT of weed….oh well, rather have a lot of soft drugs than a lot of violence.
Of course, this isn’t to say that I like the USA. I appreciate what I have, I’d just rather be elsewhere. Hence, my decision to apply for college in England.
April 9th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
A strong case can be made for the US being on this list. The US is a very dangerous place – to its’ own citizens. There is danger in lax tort reform, “pork” spending, and a look-the-other-way mentality.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Oh thank goodness you got in that bashing of the United States at the end. I was starting to get worried there.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
troyfamu; no other types of violence are not superior, they just aren’t so final. We (Canada) actually have a higher rate of aggravated assault than the USA. How many of those assaults would have been murder if the assailant had easy access to fire-arms?
Guns are not banned in Canada, lots of folks hunt and we have a large farming culture. Lots of guns. Just not lots of hand-guns. Hand guns require strict licensing, separate storage of ammo, and you can only shoot at gun clubs and the like. (Just side arms)
By the way I’m not anti-gun, I even like to shoot and have relatives who compete internationally. I just believe in strict controls. Outright ban on machine guns and assault rifles would be ok by me too.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Troyfamu: …Seriously? No. As previously discussed in the comments, equating things like “lax tort reform, pork spending, and a look-the-other-way mentality” with wholesale murder, rape, genocide, territoriality, and abduction is just silly. You’re life is not in danger with any of the things you listed above. While I do believe some parts of the US can be dangerous (namely, the seedy part of major metropolitan areas), it qualifies as an honorable mention at best. And even then, with all the other dangerous countries out there, it would get beat out for that 2 or 3 times over.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Maybe we should let the rest of the world think USA is a very dangerous place to live…. might slow down the fucking immigration problem!!!!!
April 9th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
ooops…..did i really say that?
April 9th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Just paying the bills…
April 9th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
lllll: suits me
otay: on your head be it
April 9th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
otay: That would never work. Most of the immigrants are from Mexico, and that place is no walk in the park either. In fact, I’d say the border towns look downright horrific compared to even the worst parts of South Central LA.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
SlickWilly – Yeah, i must admit you are correct…… was a nice fantasy though. lol
April 9th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Mom424: I am saying that a large number of murders in the US are committed with an illegally obtained firearm. Outlawing the firearm does not stop the outlaw. In Florida, we have the 10-20-Life law regarding handguns. A person gets 10 years if they commit a crime with a handgun on their person, 20 years if they fire the gun, and 25 to life if they shoot someone with said gun. This law has been in effect for a few years and we are having to build dozens of extra state prisons to house all of the criminals. I know all of the crimes are not murder or assault with a weapon, but the law is not as much of a deterent as was proposed. It’s not the guns…it’s the mentality of our culture. Coincidentally, I think we should outlaw automatic weapons, too.
SlickWilly: You think this country does not belong on the list because of YOUR definition of “dangerous”. In an earlier post to Jfrater, I stated that this list is a question of what dangerous means. I would bet it means something different in each country. And I am not trying to belittle my home country (you make a good point with your post) but if you think that the things that I mentioned – added with a few more – cannot change a country’s mentality, your are mistaken.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Otay, Slick; without our immigration “problem” we would have no folks working at the Corner Store, No Cabbies, No Chambermaids, No general labourers. I am serious. The sense of entitlement prevalent in many Canadians means they will not do these jobs. They would rather live off my taxes – ie: social assistance/welfare. Our immigrant community works their collective asses off to succeed. That and to qualify to bring the rest of their family over. I do not object. I object to all the phony refugees though, lordy we have somali war lords as refugees.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Mom424: Although Slick and Otay are kidding around…I think it’s the illegal immigration problem we in the US are angry about. Not the immigration that most of our ancestors went through.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Welfare is a disaster. I don’t see a problem helping someone get back on their feet. But i strongly feel that a person should only be qualified to recieve asstance ONE TIME, and for only a certain time frame. Any time there is a possibility of receiving “free” money or ammeneties, there will be parasites that will suck it dry for as long as they can.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
troyfamu: If you read the list carefully, all of the entries were selected for immediate threat to life, limb, and property. While there are these threats in all countries, the risk of these things happening in the US is far less than the countries on this list. And far less than many countries not on this list. If the US were to qualify to be on this list, it would be far, far down, definately not in the top ten. You have a cute, semantical take on “dangerous” but, unfortunately, when it comes to the purpose of this list, it doesn’t cut the muster.
Mom424: Just curious, where do most of your immigrants come from? Also, I don’t have a problem with immigration. It’s illegal immigration I have a problem with, and the frequency and intensity with which it is occuring in this country. And I’ll be the first one to admit that Mexican immigrants are by and large honest, *extremely* hard working people, and it’s a shame we take advantage of that. Make it easier for them to come over here and work and they won’t immigrate illegally.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
troyfamu – thank you, yes.. it is the illegal immigration that i am talking about. Migrant workers from Mexico come all the way up here to Montana and harvest crops for farmers. The few that I have encountered were in a line at the service counter in Walmart, wiring money back to their families in Mexico. For the most part, they are hard working and honest people, that do fill a niche here that locals either cant or won’t do themselves.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
slick: amen, I too have absolutely no problem with immigration, but if immigrants applied for citizenship rather than sneak in the country, it’d be a whole different story.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Personally I think that illegals should be allowed because we have a lot of room for those families in the middle of the country and we’d get a lot more workers who are WILLING to work and don’t complain.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Otay; no kidding, that and Worker’s Compensation. The number of people who have bad backs is amazing. Not so bad when they’re at the bar, or the bingo, or the ball game. Only bad when they need to get a job. It is unfortunate, the people I know who truly were hurt on the job and had to settle for far less than they require to compensate for loss of mobility etc. because the government expects you to cheat. They cannot wait the 2 or 3 years it takes for a decision; the bank certainly won’t wait that long for their mortgage.
I have no problem with welfare for the truly needy; the sub-contractor who breaks his leg and has no insurance, in the case of catastrophic illness, the parent left hi and dry by the ex with 4 little kids. But the young people I know who have received it, lazy drug addled fools that I pay for. We have soup kitchens, we have the Sally Anne. You won’t starve or freeze. Even trading welfare for public works, or further education/training (as long as they maintain good grades), but these folks do nothing for the money.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Mom424 – They have learned that they don’t have to do anything to receive assistance. Many of these kids were taught by the best, their lazy parasitic parent(s).
April 9th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Slickwilly; lots of Indians from India, Jamaicans, Koreans, Pakistani’s, Some Russians, lots of Asians on the West Coast. Our illegal immigration problems are generally Jamaican and Vietnamese/Asian. Criminal element from both. The number of times some of these Jamaican thugs are ejected from the country, and then just sneak back in through our sieve-like border with you guys. Jamaican gang/drug dealers and asian thug/mafia types. It is unfortunate because we have a huge, hard working, decent Jamaican population that are being painted with the same brush.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Mom424: Oh man, and we think the Mexican/US border is unsecure. There are thousands and thousands of miles of Canadian/US border that are unguarded. Not a huge problem for us, because we don’t have alot of Canadians immigrating here (more power to you guys; if I lived there, I wouldn’t want to come here either), but I imagine the Canadians are bearing the brunt of the immigration problem when it comes to the border.
Csimmons: The problem is that it is *very* difficult to attain US citizenship if you’re not born here or marry a citizen. That’s why a lot come over illegally. I say, make it easier to get a work visa, not necessarily citizenship. But I feel that we’ve scratched Mexico’s back good and hard, they at least owe us the same. Part of the problem is Mexico loves illegal immigration because the immigrants send all their American-made money over the border. Mexico literally leeches off of us, and they arn’t going to do much in the foreseeable future to stop it.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
slick: We could launch a pre-emptive strike, oh wait, I mean have talks about… aww screw it. just bomb ‘em, ok maybe not.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
oh, and slick, it’s “aren’t” not “arn’t”, sorry, I’m kind of a grammar nazi
April 9th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Csimmons: Ah, blow it out your grammar-hitler-lovin’ ass. God damn grammar-jew-hating grammar nazi. Grammar anti-semite.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
I am 30 miles from the US/Canadian border. There is a border checkpoint on the highway, however, i know many gravel roads that lead to ranchers grazing pastures right on the border….NO border patrol in sight for as far as the eye can see. Unless you take a major highway across the border, you will not even see the border patrol.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Grammar.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
slick: Well that’s a bit harsh
April 9th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Beenthere your comment sounds like the typical denialist ‘it’s no worse here than anywhere else’ drivel that seems to plague Colombia in particular. Sure people should go to Colombia but let’s not pretend it’s safe, or are you going to deny there are still 17,000 ‘official’ murders a year there? You may not have got murdered, but a ton (mostly poor urban slum dwellers in alcohol and drug-related turf violence) still got put in a bodybag, right?
April 9th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
I’d replace South Africa and even possibly Brazil with Venezuela and El Salvador.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Not to post three times in a row but Russia is lucky to be on here. If it does deserve it’s placing then I think the conflict in Chechnya rather than traditional crime is the main reason. Haiti and possibly the Congo are worthy. I’m gonna have to sit down and work out how I’ll fit all my choices in a top 10. Somalia, Sudan, Iraq and Afghanistan should be the top 4 but not sure about the order.
April 9th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Csim: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080409/ts_nm/iran_nuclear_ahmadinejad_dc_1, Preemptive may be what we need. Any one who disagrees… Bite me, I don’t feel like arguing right now.