Top 10 Myths About the Romans
- Published May 5, 2008 - 105 Comments
For many, the only exposure to Ancient Rome comes from what they have seen in the movies or on television. Unfortunately, films like Gladiator, Spartacus, Barabbas, and Demetrius and the Gladiators don’t present a very accurate depiction of life in Rome and the arena.
Considering the fact that the Roman Empire existed for so long, and so much of our own Western society has derived from it, it is no surprise that we all have at least one or two misconceptions about the Empire and its people.
For this reason, we have put together a list of the most misconceptions people hold about the Ancient Roman society and customs. Fortunately most are easily proven wrong as you will see when you read on:
Contrary to popular belief, the emperor did not give a thumbs up or down for a gladiator as a signal to kill his enemy. The emperor (and only the emperor) would give an open or closed hand – if his palm was flat, it meant “spare his life”, if it was closed, it meant “kill him”. If a gladiator killed his opponent before the emperor gave his permission, the gladiator would be put on trial for murder, as only the emperor had the right to condemn a man to death. In the image above we see this myth in action.
HBO/BBC created an excellent series called “Rome” which covers a number of years of the Roman Empire. In the series they have, unfortunately, slandered the good name of one of the main Characters, Atia (Mother of Octavian – Augustus – and niece of Julius Caesar). In the show she is seen as a licentious, self-absorbed and manipulative schemer who is Mark Antony’s lover. In reality, Atia was a highly moral woman, well regarded by Roman Society at the time. Tacitus had this to say of her:
In her presence no base word could be uttered without grave offence, and no wrong deed done. Religiously and with the utmost delicacy she regulated not only the serious tasks of her youthful charges, but also their recreations and their games.
A very persistent myth about the Romans is that they would feast until they were full, then visit a room called a vomitorium to “vomit” the food out so they could start over again. This is a myth – the vomitoria were actually passages that enabled people to move quickly to and from their seats in an amphitheater. These vomitoria made it possible for thousands of Roman citizens to be seated within minutes. In the photograph above [source] we see a real vomitorium.
While it is true that the Romans did speak a form of Latin known as vulgar Latin, it was quite different from the Classical Latin that we generally think of them speaking (Classical Latin is what we usually learn at University). Vulgar Latin is the language that the Romance languages (Italian, French, etc.) developed from. Classical Latin was used as an official language only. In addition, members of the Eastern Roman Empire were speaking Greek exclusively by the 4th century, and Greek had replaced Latin as the official language.
In modern days we tend to use the term plebeian to refer to the common or poor classes, but in Rome, a plebeian was just a member of the general populace of Rome (as opposed to the Patricians who were the privileged classes). Plebeians could, and very often did, become very wealthy people – but wealth did not change their class. Wikipedia has an excellent article on this which you can read here.
When we think of Romans, we almost always imagine men in togas. But in fact, the toga was a very formal piece of clothing – to say that the Romans always wore togas would be the same as saying that the English always wear top-hats and tails. Juvenal says this: “There are many parts of Italy, to tell the truth, in which no man puts on a toga until he is dead”. The average roman would have worn tunics.
There is a popular misconception that when Rome conquered Carthage, they salted the farmlands to prevent anything from growing. In fact, this is a 20th century myth which has no bearing in reality. When the Romans conquered Carthage, they went from house to house capturing slaves and slaughtering the rest. They burnt the city to the ground and left it as a pile of ruins. This resulted in the loss of a great deal of historical information on Carthage, which makes the study of it difficult in modern times.
Caesar’s last words were actually “And you also” as recorded (in Greek) by Suetonius: Και συ Τέκνον (kai su teknon). These words were spoken to Brutus, which is undoubtedly the reason that Shakespeare coined the phrase: “And you, Brutus”. The meaning of his last words is unknown – but it would seem fair to think that he was telling his murderer: “you will be next”. Caesar was bi-lingual (Greek and Latin) and Greek was the dominant language in Rome at the time, so it is not unreasonable that his last words would have been uttered in that language.

In fact, women were gladiators too (though they were called gladiatrices – or gladiatrix for singular). While the first documented appearance of gladiatrices appears under the reign of Nero (37 – 68 AD), there are implications in earlier documents that strongly suggest they existed before. A strong condemnation against female gladiators of the Flavian and Trajanic eras can be found in the Satire VI of Juvenal, decrying the fact female gladiators were typically from upper-class families and seeking thrill and attention. Emperor Severus banned female gladiators around AD 200 but records show that this ban was largely ignored.
In fact, most modern historians believe that Nero was not even in Rome when the fire started. The fire started in shops selling flammable goods, though it was later blamed on the Christians (which brought on a new onslaught of persecutions). Nero was actually in Antium when the fire started, and when he heard about it he rushed back to Rome to organize relief efforts. According to Tacitus: “the population searched for a scapegoat and rumors held Nero responsible. To diffuse blame, Nero targeted a sect called the Christians. He ordered Christians to be thrown to dogs, while others were crucified and burned.”
























May 5th, 2008 at 6:09 am
Ahhh, finally a list right down my alley, nice job.
May 5th, 2008 at 6:16 am
Very interesting list!
May 5th, 2008 at 6:23 am
#11 Invented the Roman Candle.
May 5th, 2008 at 6:27 am
Nice list!
May 5th, 2008 at 6:41 am
let’s see what randall has to say about this list as he is the residing roman expert.
i thought it was very interesting as i have either heard or passed along most of these misconceptions.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:01 am
Great list. Its amazing how many misconceptions we believe.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:04 am
very interesting.
its weird cause in my world history class last year i remember talking a bout acouple of these while covering anceint rome
May 5th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Open/closed fist seems a hell lot cooler than thumbs up/down.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:20 am
ian: It’s very common for teachers to repeat interesting facts and anecdotes they heard in the hopes of keeping their students’ attention. Too often, they don’t actually verify what they’re teaching. Worse yet, things like this make it into textbooks for the same reason.
Love this list! I always like lists where myths are busted. Like a previous list said, debunking myths makes you look smart in conversation. I’d always heard the vomitorium stories as true. Same with the salting of Carthage.
As far as Greek replacing Latin by the 4th century, historians usually say that about the eastern half of the empire. If Greek had become the dominant language in the west, then how’d those romance languages develop?
May 5th, 2008 at 7:23 am
yeah, they mentioned some of these in my history class too. maybe i need to have a talk with my history teacher.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Hey….cool list.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:42 am
robneiderman: You are correct – I didn’t differentiate in the text but I have updated it now – thanks for pointing that out.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:46 am
Nice list. I took Latin to GCSe and remember learning about a lot of these.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:57 am
*insert political joke about “garlic nose” about here*
May 5th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Interesting list. I have definitely believed a few of these myths myself. Now I want to find a way to incorporate the term “gladiatrix” into conversation.
May 5th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Very interesting. I knew that the thumbs up/down thing was wrong, but I always believed that it was thumbs up for “let them live” and pointing your thumb (and touching) the chest for “death”
Seems I am wrong again
May 5th, 2008 at 9:37 am
I knew that thumbs-up and thumbs-down was wrong. However, I belive that the historical account I read said that the emperor used “pressed-thumbs.” I don’t know what that means and apparently nobody else does either.
May 5th, 2008 at 9:45 am
LOL! I looked at the title of this list and said, “Damn, I could’ve written this one”. Then I read it and said, “Damn, in my 3 years of Latin, I didn’t learn anything!”.
Thank you for proving my Latin teacher wrong. She made us learn the culture of Rome when learning Latin and she perpetuated some of these myths, such as the vomitarium and the thumbs up/down.
There was another BBC mini-series we saw that really slandered people’s names: I, Claudius. I can’t remember if it was the same woman portrayed as a power-hungry, conniving woman. I want to say it was Caligula’s great-aunt.
May 5th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I’m glad you mentioned the toga thing.
While it may have been much warmer 2,000 years ago, the current winter average temperature is
May 5th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Regardless of where he was at the time, Nero couldn’t have fiddled while Rome burned. Violins– in fact the entire viol family– hadn’t been invented yet.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:54 am
maxrad: I think it must mean fiddled in the sense of “fiddling around” which means “to mess about” – in other words, he was doing something trivial. Having said that, some say he played a lyre and sang – but neither of the stories are true.
May 5th, 2008 at 11:05 am
A lot of errors corrected–thanks for this great list!
May 5th, 2008 at 11:12 am
this is history, so a large part is made of conjecture and the popular theories of the day, but here are some pseudo-corrections:
Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down – the Emperor was the final decider, but the crowd made gestures with their thumbs, thumbs down for sheath your sword and let him live, thumbs up for gut him from groin to neck, the preferred method of killing.
Et Tu, Brute – yes, it was in Greek, but the translation is highly dubious. It may have been, “you too, my son” implying Caesar may have been Brutus’s father (its very possible he had an affair with Brutus’s mother) or he favored him, but it could also have been “you too, my sweet one” (or something to that affect). Caesar was known to sleep with men and women, and he could have been having an affair with Brutus.
Just the versions I learned in my Classics classes for what they are worth.
May 5th, 2008 at 11:18 am
…gladiatrices appears under the reign of Nero (68 – 37 BC)…
Actually Nero’s dates are (37 – 68 AD) or the dates of his reign (54 – 68 AD).
May 5th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Re: Gladiatrices…Yup, David is right, Nero’s dates are 37-68 AD, his reign was from 54 to 68 AD. What now?
May 5th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
David: many thanks – it is now corrected.
77 or 88: On a recent trip to Rome an expert in the games told me that only the emperor had a say in the final death or survival of the victim of the gladiator; additionally he said that thumbs up and thumbs down was not used in the arenas at all. If you can give me a citation for what you say I am happy to accept it – but in the meantime I have to go by what an expert I know personally told me
May 5th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
77 or 88: you are right about the translation of “teknon” – it could mean child, son, or a person bonded without blood relations but in a similar relationship – so yes, there are a variety of translations that can be used. I have just chosen one of the many. But the fact remains, he did NOT say “and you, Brutus”
May 5th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Suetonius did not live until a hundred years after Caesar, any dialog he recorded, including last words, would have been totally fictitious. The point of history back then was to tell a narrative, not record facts, so anything like last words would have been made up by Suetonius. The myth might be in the translation, but you can’t settle the actual words of Caesar.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Woot, I knew all of these except the thing about the female gladiators. Hardcore women those must have been…
I like the Life of Brian Romans myself, Wewease Woger!
May 5th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
not very accurate… to say romans didnt speak latin is to say americans dont speak english. when an empire spans continents like the Roman Empire did without any forms of media or long distance communication language changes. the language evolved and people started making their own dialects, not a different language at all
May 5th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
I agree with Steve Wilkos, a better myth would have been that Latin was the language of Rome, b/c it was actually the language of Latium, in which Rome as apart.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
edwf and Steve Wilkos: classical Latin was long gone as the vernacular tongue at the height of the empire. Vulgar Latin versus Classical Latin is not the same as the difference between English and American English – they had dropped the neuter form of verbs and had adopted the indefinite and definite article which do not exist in Latin (Classical) – the differences were immense. So much so that a person who only spoke vulgar Latin would have difficulty understanding Classical Latin.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Ahhh, finally, a good informative list which I love since I love to studt the Romans.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Jfrater: I would be wary of taking advice from Jerry Springer’s head of security.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
sorry, “study”
May 5th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
One of the major problems I have with a film like Gladiator was when they tried to kill their general out in the field. That was totally ludicrous. Generals who led their troops to victory were absolutely loved by the troops, they would have slaughtered anyone who tried to touch him. Only the generals who lost battles would have feared for their lives. Conversely, a gladiator would never stand a chance against the emperor in the Coliseum – his guard would have chopped him to bits.
Hollywood rarely gets it right.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
buclism: does hollywood ever get right with historical films? If they actually decided to tell these stories the right I might actually go see a historical film.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
sorry, again, “right way”
May 5th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
SlickWilly: I don’t understand your comment – extrapolate…
May 5th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
I love the vomitorium part! Great list! I also just noticed the subtle “Just paying the bills…” before the ad, hahaha
May 5th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
In the intro, it says ‘in the Rome and the arena’,
May 5th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Ghidoran: Fixed – thanks
May 5th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
jfrater: SillyWilly is talking about an american tv show. It is a show which shows the “trash” of america.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Fantastic list…i’d love to see more of the ‘historical inaccuracies’ variety of lists.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
These are all fun but that last one needs some clarification. The issue is not that Nero was sitting in the city of Rome fiddling but that he was , in fact, so obsessed with his own artistic talent that he ignored Rome as a whole (not just the city itself) and the Empire suffered greatly due to his neglect.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Hmmm… interesting. When I visited carthage the tour guide who was an expert in that area said the romans sewed salt into the fields to kill the crops. I guess historians are the only ones who know the real deal.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
It was a little heart breaking to read this list. My Godmother and Latin Teacher went to school in Switzerland and America and earned her Masters. It’s hard to know that she is ever wrong. But I guess even the smartest people make mistakes. I still don’t think I’d ever have the heart to tell her.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Excellent List.
I knew the vomitorium wasn’t for puking. I was told that our word vomit does come from it. You can even understand; the throngs pouring out of the amphitheatre; not much of a leap to see the similarity there.
I thought the “and you also” quote referred to his participation in the plot. Geez I’m wrong again?
May 5th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
You are mistaken about the myth “Romans Spoke Latin”, Romans in fact spoke what we know as classic latin. Vulgar latin did not appear until the late 3rd century, many years later the people began to make a difference between classic and vulgar, but any baker or slave spoke “classic” latin in the 1st century.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Gladiatrix, that sounds hot.
May 5th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
@ Willis -
Haha that’s what I thought too. Gladiatrix sounds so much like Dominatrix.
May 5th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
haha i learned some of this in school not too long ago
May 5th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Absolutely fascinating.
May 5th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Another wonderful list! Interestingly enough, I remember being taught nine out of ten of these myths at the beginning of the year in history class. However, that’s probably largely due to the fact that we actually learned about what was written down by these people at the time. If I can make a suggestion, I’d say you should make a list about the ancient Egyptians. I find them to be even more fascinating than the Romans, even though my teacher and I disagree. Once again, great stuff, jfrater!
May 5th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Going back to what you said about gladiators.. they actually put blind people against each other as well as children in some instances which was rare but it did happen, maybe not so much in the Flavian Amphitheater (the Colosseum) but it did happen.
May 5th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
wait wait wait… you mean to tell me that the English don’t wear top hats and tails?
May 5th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Dischuker:
Randall is the site’s resident expert on ALL things, not merely Rome. Remember that.
But I joke. In fact, I will lay claim to being the site’s resident expert on all things GREEK in nature, particularly ancient Greece–but I am less well-versed when it comes to Rome. I never liked the ancient Romans (I find them despicable, in fact) and never much bothered with studying them as intently as I did the Greeks (I am part Greek but also part Italian–though mostly German and English).
One thing… there *was* a persistent rumor, if I recall, that Brutus WAS Caesar’s bastard son. Generally, I believe it was treated as truthful.
Also… Nero *couldn’t* have “fiddled” while Rome burned anyway–fiddles (violins) had not been invented yet. Nero would have plucked a lyre perhaps, but no fiddling.
May 5th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Manuel Montoya is right; Latin remained reasonably closed to what we learn as Classical (except for the pronunciation! but that’s another story) well into the Common Era. Moreover, the change was a gradual one when it did happen, and the linguistic difference is more analogous to the difference between Chaucer’s English and Shakespeare’s English than to that between modern British and American English.
Also, jfrater: Latin *verbs* have no neuter form, nor any other agreement forms for gender. I think you may mean that the neuter gender was largely syncretized with the masculine (initially as a result of the loss of phonemic nasal vowels and coda simplification at word boundaries). Furthermore, the “indefinite and definite articles” of the Romance language evolved out of Latin deictic determiners; in Vulgar Latin, as far as I know, they were not full-fledged articles yet, but were well on their way—I think what happened was that the deictic meaning became generalized to refer to discourse rather than real deixis.
Anyhow, great list overall! Good to see poor Atia’s name cleared.
May 5th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Thanks Manuel Montoya and Mike! Latin is an awesome language, it’s important to have the facts right!
May 5th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
not only were there female gladiators, they also formed the first feminist movement. When they were banned from fighting in the arena around 800 of them marched on the senate in protest. The first time in history that a group of women stood up for their rights.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Very interesting.
i’ve always wondered if there were chick gladiators
excuse me i must use the Vomitoria
May 5th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Great list. If I’m not mistaken, there is also no record of what Roman music sounded like. The fanfare like trumpets that is normally associated with “Roman Music” is actually very Hollywood.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Mike: you are right sorry – I meant gender in nouns, not verbs.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Jfrater: Be lucky you don’t have Jerry Springer in the UK/Australia/wherever you are right now. Just youtube it and you’ll see what I mean. Steve Wilkos is the head of security on the show, basically being in change of making sure toothless hillbillies don’t absolutely wreck each other arguing over who’s the baby daddy. Now he has his own spin-off show where he brings said toothless hillbillies on to the stage and verbally berates them for half an hour.
May 5th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
SlickWilly: oh – I have seen an episode of it but not more than that – can’t say I was a fan
And for the record I am in London still – I leave in 3 weeks to return to New Zealand (not Australia!)
May 6th, 2008 at 2:24 am
Another Interesting Tid Bit About Rome That I Read (in A Actual Book) Was That The Romans Didn’t Have A Word For Masturbation Becuase They Simply Didnt Need One. . . Now I Know This May Be Inaccurate So Im Going To Look For A Reliable Source To Back This Up Ill Post Again When I Find Somthing
May 6th, 2008 at 2:34 am
I believe Caesar’s writings over the Gall Wars, or Bello Gallica (I think), were written in almost perfect classical Latin. It doesn’t mean he spoke it, but this is a resource in which many have studied because of purity of the Latin language.
May 6th, 2008 at 2:57 am
Cedestra – “There was another BBC mini-series we saw that really slandered people’s names: I, Claudius. I can’t remember if it was the same woman portrayed as a power-hungry, conniving woman. I want to say it was Caligula’s great-aunt.”
You’re talking about Livia, Augustus’ second wife. She was Caligula’s Great-Grandmother. I still remember that scene where he pashes her before he heads off to bed… *shudders*
May 6th, 2008 at 4:19 am
Good list, very interesting.
May 6th, 2008 at 5:38 am
I’m very pleased that there is a list about Romans. There was nothing on this list that I didn’t already know, but I’ve got a bit more knowledge of Ancient Rome than many. Thank you so much for posting it!
(Random signiture)
May 6th, 2008 at 6:02 am
Και συ Τέκνον (kai su teknon).
In greek “Τέκνον” means child, so the above phrase translates to “and you child”.
May 6th, 2008 at 9:48 am
davegreek:
yai sou, fili mou… (sorry, don’t know how to use the Greek alphabet font on this site… I never have asked Jamie if all HTML tags work here).
Note that “teknon” means child in ANCIENT Greek (modern greek is “paidia”). Caesar was, therefore, referring to Brutus as “his child,” which is, as I said earlier, the tradition—that Brutus was Caesar’s bastard son.
May 6th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I have another version (not sure how credible, but learned from an Italian TV program about Roman history) of the thumbs up/thumbs down demystifycation:
The Emperor was indeed the only one who could command a gladiator, this is true. But in the version I know, he used the raised arm and the palm facing forward (as if to stop the Gladiator) to spare the Gladiator’s opponent; or used the left thumb (palm still facing forward) in a semi-circular motion from left to right and pressed it on the open right palm to command a killing, which generally would be more pitiful than allowing a badly wounded fighter to live (infections deriving from wounds would kill you back then).
Considering the distance between the Emperor and the fighters (Has anyone ever been to the Colosseum? It STILL looks huge!) I believe this version because the gestures are visible from a distance. But who can really tell?
Also, the influence of the Greek language was very strong in Ancient Rome. Most teachers were Greek slaves and the Romans were fascinated with Greek history and literature (and a few other things) and those who were able to travel (especially the military in the Eastern and Southern provinces of the Empire) spoke a lingua franca called koiné and based on Greek (very similar to pidgin English, to make a comparison) because the subjects in the East and South were more used to Greek than Latin.
So, we may identify an official language (Classical Latin), a lingua franca (koiné) and dialects (from vulgar Latin spoken in Rome to regional variations of the same, which were quite a few and at least one still in existance. Recent studies prove that the Romanian language is as close as you can get to late vulgar Latin, in grammar, syntax and pronunciation. But all the Romance languages (French, Spanish, Romanian, Italian, Furlan, Rumantsch, Sardinian, Corsican, Provençal) are direct derivations from Latin, as everyone knows.
I was born and live in Rome and I can safely say that the Romans (and the Italians) are generally trilingual: their dialect is what they learn first, Italian (our lingua franca, pronounced differently as you travel from North to South, unless you learn diction well) comes second and a foreign language to communicate with the rest of the world is the third language you learn if you wish to make an effort
May 6th, 2008 at 10:23 am
I would assume that the palm out motion meaning ‘do not kill’ has lingered through to the present, with our universal sign for ’stop’?
May 6th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Come to find out, the ’salting’ of Carthage was really a typographical error in recording the ’sacking’ of Carthage…
Oh yeah, and tomatoes (and hence tomato sauce) were not original additions to classic Italian pizza ‘pies’ – they didn’t show up until about 600 years later… bet that could be myth #12.
May 6th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
I don’t know if this was mentioned before, but the Thumbs Down thing is not quite accurate. I don’t think they really know what the signals were, but it is thought that the closed fist represented sheathing the sword, therefore letting the loser live (called granting a missus). If the thumb were out, then it signaled death to the loser (drawn sword).
That’s just what I’ve read. Very fascinating group, the Romans.
May 6th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
very nice list. strangely, the only of these misconceptions i myself used to believe was the thumb thing. so simple and insignificant that i never cared to doubt practicly anyone when they said that those were the signs used.
and the thumbs also fitted into the present meanings of yes and no.
but if i cant trust what ive heard before, then why should i now?
not of the greatest importance anyways.
May 6th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
greek was spoke by most of the empire’s people up until and after the conquest of the western roman empire by Charlemagne, king of the Franks and in 800AD he was crowned emperor of the western part of the empire by Pope Leo III and he founds the Holy Roman Empire. Charlemagne conquest makes latin the new official language of the state & church of the Holy Roman Empire, so over time more of the social life of the west came to be associated with all thing latin and the rest is history…..
May 6th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
My Greek is only elementary but “Και συ Τέκνον (kai su teknon)” seems incorrect… surely it would be Και εσύ Τέκνον (and you …) – although Και and εσύ would naturally roll up into one and sound like Και’σύ ?
May 7th, 2008 at 1:20 am
Ian: Check out this wikipedia page – it confirms that his last words WERE Καὶ σὺ τέκνον. Unfortunately my Ancient Greek is elementary as well – however I did come up with this:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=greek;layout.refembed=2;layout.refwordcount=1;layout.refdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057;layout.reflookup=su%2F;layout.refcit=entry%3Dsu%2F;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2397457
It explains σὺ as the nominative 2nd singular indeclined form.
May 7th, 2008 at 2:23 am
@jfrater
Thanks for that… I’m currently smacking myself around the head, because of course Caesar would never have spoken demotic Greek, would he? LOL The Perseus page (site) is a good reference to have though, and I’ll bookmark it for future comparison.
Many thanks
May 7th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
I first encountered the word “vomitorium” in an historical novel (one of the Falco stories by Lindsey Davis (highly recommended for a “plebians-eye view” of Rome!)). I immediately thought “oh, I hope that doesn’t mean what I think it means” and dived/dove for the dictionary, to find out that indeed it didn’t mean what I thought it means, fortunately.
May 8th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Seriously, is it true that men would only have sex with women to procreate, and otherwise they would have homosexual relations?
May 9th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
rodeograndma:
There are entire volumes about the sexual proclivities of the Greeks and Romans. I can speak less authoritatively about the Romans, but where the Greeks are concerned, the best piece I ever read on the subject suggested that the easiest way to understand this is to realize that the ancient Greeks (and to some extent, at least, the Romans as well) did not have the same view of sexuality as we do; we in essence view it as a duality, or dichotomy, based strictly on gender. Male/female. The Greeks, however, had a more complex view. This was not, by the way, simply a “philosophy” or “trend” that they had developed, but rather seemed to be essential to who they were. At any rate, their view of sexuality could most succinctly be said to based on power, rather than gender. i.e., there is the doer and the receiver, or the one who does things and the one who has things done to him/her. The partners could be the same sex or different sexes; this hardly mattered. Greek men entered into marriages in order to have a partner in the home–the wife managed the home, in other words, while the husband did his thing, whatever that may be (usually some sort of business, in the case of the merchant class, or in the case of the patrician class, he was simply one of the idle rich–though of course the Greeks were never idle). In Athens wives were even expected to remain in the home and have very little outside contact. They were allowed to have a social set amongst women of equal station, but this was to be separate from the husband, and at all times subservient to his wishes. This wasn’t the practice throughout Greece, of course, though later it became more generally accepted as the way of doing things—and it to some extent later spread to Rome.
Women, therefore, could have intense “friendships” with other women–sometimes of equal station, but occasionally with female servants. Lesbianism, as we know, was well known and seems to have been more or less accepted, if not well acknowledged. Similarly, men had intense “friendships” and relationships with other men–but more often between older, well-to-do men and male servants or young men of a similar station.
The Greeks didn’t view any of this as “homosexuality” per se… as we would view it, that is. Rather, they simply saw it as A) a system, as it were, of experience over inexperience (age over youth, with youth as the lower partner) and B) a sort of natural “separation of the genders.” Women were women and men and were men, as it were, and procreation is why we have the two genders, but that has nothing to do with real relationships, love, and fun. That was more or less how they thought.
Of course, it’s a mistake to think this applied uniformly throughout the Classical Greek and Roman world. The fact is that many men were, as today, lusty creatures who preferred women over boys, and for them there was an entire class of accomplishe concubines, rather like very independent geishas. These women could actually wield real power and could possess property and wealth, unlike their wedded sisters who had to stay in the home and manage the house affairs. Pericles, the great Greek statesman, had a famous female lover/concubine (essentially she was a prostitute who’d made good, big time) who was not only his partner (albeit not legally) but in many ways his equal, acting as his advisor and confidante. There was, in other words, often real love between men and women, not just sex.
BUT NOT our idea, or the Middle Ages idea, of “romantic love.” That the Greeks and the Romans would have found absurd, even bizarre. There could be affection and lust between men and women–even deep love. But romance? Never.
The simple way of looking at it is that in the classical world, there was an alternative to our seemingly “biological” view of sex–in which men preferred the company of men and women the company of women–even in the bedroom. And it was often based on the power of an older partner over a younger one.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
to find out Randall thinks the Romans are dispicable is crushing..
May 15th, 2008 at 5:29 am
“Coito (sic) ergo sum”
or, as Desi Arnaz once said,..
I came. I saw. I conga-ed”
May 15th, 2008 at 5:30 am
And, don’t forget, “Illegitimi non-carborundum est”.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:42 am
“Latin is a language,
dead as dead can be.
First, it killed the Romans,
now it’s killing me”
“Cave ab hominum unius libre”
May 29th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Nero couldn’t have fiddled anyway considering the fiddle wasn’t invented until 5 or 6 hundreed years ago.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:24 am
If you study the rulers and lives of the first period of the roman empire and compare it to the last period you will find it is an almost exact replica.
The roman empire was created into writing in 1485. There are nowritten documents ANYWHERE that come from the roman era, in actual fact there are no written documents that exist before the 1100 AD.
So bear in mind that most of it is a fabrication.
July 15th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Tom:
Huh? I don’t know where you’re getting your info, Tom, but it’s faulty. There are several documents written prior to AD 1100 that are still extant. Original documents. And we certainly have copies of far older documents that have survived.
Many documents were preserved in the sands of Egypt which go back at least as far as the Hellenistic era.
And what is this supposed to mean, “the Roman Empire was created into writing in 1485″? Not only is that not a proper sentence, I can’t fathom what the hell you’re talking about.
Moreover, where do you get this idea that the first period of the empire is identical to the last period? Excuse me?
August 9th, 2008 at 7:59 am
I think Randall’s mind is hot!
December 12th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
This is a completely friendly comment, but if you guys ever need an editor you can call on me. I know it must be difficult to catch the typos and grammar errors with so much research involved, and considering how I love this site it’d be great lend a hand
February 6th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Im a student, (year 10) and my history teacher has been telling me lies lol…
February 11th, 2009 at 2:12 am
I’ve heard a very different interpretation of ‘et tu, Brutus’. Before Julius Caesar became seriously hated by the Roman plebs and patricians, one of his closest friends and advisors as quasi-emperor, was Brutus. Traditionally, the line spoken in the play ‘Julius Caesar’ by Shakespeare should be spoken with shock (although it is entirely up to the actor, of course), the reason being Caesar thought Brutus was loyal to him right up to the point that he was stabbed by him. The shock of course coming from the utmost betrayal Caesar must have felt – one his closest friends had been conspiring to kill him. A somewhat lame comparison would be along the lines of ‘how could you?’. In fact, it could almost be spoken as a question: ‘et tu, Brutus?’
February 21st, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Carospine…
I believe you mean “it’d be great (to) lend a hand” ; )
April 9th, 2009 at 8:05 am
the same as saying that the English always wear top-hats and tails
Thats silly. Top hat and tails is evening ware and should only be worn after 6pm. The English ware morning suits before 6
April 28th, 2009 at 9:46 am
On the Toga thing, men outside of italy were not counted as romans, they were the italians of the latinums. Roman citizenship was very difficult to aquire especially for the italians hence the many civil wars throughout romes history. So it is highly plausable that many romans wore togas as it would have distinguished them from italians im not saying all romans wore togas i am simply highlighting the irrelivance of the Juvenal quote.
especially as many people in rome itself were not considered roman citizens see ‘plutarchs roman lives’
so most Italians would have worn tunics, most roman citizens would have worn togas.
May 11th, 2009 at 5:36 am
recedentia quoque plures teneo is alls
EGO reputo I’m iens vomito.