Religious scholars say that God suspended the laws of incest in the early days of man in order to ensure that man spread on the earth. In the words of the commentators of the Douay Rheims Bible: “God [dispensed] with such marriages in the beginning of the world, as mankind could not otherwise be propagated.” Despite that, these tales are not all simply matters of procreation – particularly item 1. So, here is a list of 6 of the more questionable relationships in the Bible.
And Cain went out from the face of the Lord, and dwelt as a fugitive on the earth, at the east side of Eden. And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived, and brought forth Henoch: and he built a city, and called the name thereof by the name of his son Henoch. [Genesis 4:16-17]
Cain was the first born son of Adam and Eve, and Abel was the second. In Genesis 4 we read how Cain kills his brother and is sent east of Eden where he marries a woman and “lays” with her. Because Adam and Eve were the first humans – from whom all people come – Cain’s wife was his sister – and, consequently, all of the early Biblical relationships were incestuous (with the exception of Adam and Eve). Cain, incidentally, was the guy that caused so much trouble for the Mormon’s who believed that the cursed “Mark of Cain” meant black skin, leading them to forbid blacks from entering the Mormon priesthood (God “revealed” that they were allowed to let black skinned people in to the priesthood in 1978). You can read more about that blunder here. In the image above we see Cain killing his brother Abel.
Howbeit, otherwise also she is truly my sister, the daughter of my father, and not the daughter of my mother, and I took her to wife. And after God brought me out of my father’s house, I said to her: Thou shalt do me this kindness: In every place, to which we shall come, thou shalt say that I am thy brother. [Genesis 20:12-13]
Abraham married his half sister Sara in Ur. The King of Gerara took her from Abraham and God sent him a dream to tell him that he would be destroyed for taking a woman who already had a husband (God approved of the marriage between the brother and sister). The King returned Sara to Abraham and they remained together as a couple until she died at the age of 127. Incidentally, Abraham died 38 years later at the ripe old age of 175.
And Thare lived seventy years, and begot Abram, and Nachor, and Aran. And these are the generations of Thare: Thare begot Abram, Nachor, and Aran. And Aran begot Lot. And Aran died before Thare his father, in the land of his nativity in Ur of the Chaldees. And Abram and Nachor married wives: the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai: and the name of Nachor’s wife, Melcha, the daughter of Aran, father of Melcha, and father of Jescha. [Genesis 11:26-29]
This is one of those complex “generations” quotes that are found throughout the early stages of the Bible, but if you pay close attention you can see that Nachor (Abraham’s brother) married Melcha (his niece). It is phrases like those above which make it so difficult to read the Bible cover to cover. Frankly, these parts of the Bible make Proust’s “In Remembrance of Things Past” read like a Doctor Seuss book!
And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the elder went in and lay with her father: but he perceived not neither when his daughter lay down, nor when she rose up. And the next day the elder said to the younger: Behold I lay last night with my father, let us make him drink wine also to night, and thou shalt lie with him, that we may save seed of our father. They made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in, and lay with him: and neither then did he perceive when she lay down, nor when she rose up. So the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father. [Genesis 19:31-36]
It doesn’t really get much more blatant than that. The two daughters had sex with their father, Lot, in order to preserve his family line. Incidentally, this all happened shortly after they had fled from Soddom and Gomorrah which was destroyed by God for its immorality – ironic?. After the events described above, Lot had no memory of it (maybe it was the liquor) and nine months later the daughters gave birth to two sons, Moab (father of the Moabites), and Ammon (father of the Ammonites).
The sons of Merari: Moholi and Musi. These are the kindreds of Levi by their families. 20 And Amram took to wife Jochabed his aunt by the father’s side: and she bore him Aaron and Moses. And the years of Amram’s life were a hundred and thirty-seven. [Exodus 6:19-20]
This is the family history of Moses – the guy who lead the Jews out of Egypt and later was given the ten commandments (which were not actually 10 commandments – more on that here). Jochabed was Moses’ Great-aunty Mom.
And it came to pass after this, that Amnon the son of David loved the sister of Absalom the son of David, who was very beautiful, and her name was Thamar. And he was exceedingly fond of her, so that he fell sick for the love of her: for as she was a virgin, he thought it hard to do any thing dishonestly with her. [II Kings 13:1-2 ] And Thamar came to the house of Amnon her brother: but he was laid down: and she took meal and tempered it: and dissolving it in his sight she made little messes. And taking what she had boiled, she poured it out, and set it before him, but he would not eat: and Amnon said: Put out all persons from me. And when they had put all persons out, Amnon said to Thamar: Bring the mess into the chamber, that I may eat at thy hand. And when she had presented him the meat, he took hold of her, and said: Come lie with me, my sister. She answered him: Do not so, my brother, do not force me: for no such thing must be done in Israel. Do not thou this folly. [II Kings 13:8-12] But he would not hearken to her prayers, but being stronger overpowered her and lay with her. [II Kings 13:14]
Our final item is not just a case of incest – it is a case of incestuous rape! Amnon fell in love with his sister, Thomar, and was counseled by a crafty man to trick her in to having sex with him. He followed the bad advice and when Thomar tried to defend herself, he raped her. At least justice was ultimately done as Thomar’s other brother, Absalom, killed Amnon two years later in vengeance. Let that be a lesson to us all!
dr. lecter: so how do you personally follow God? do you believe the Bible?
i am interested when people say they believe in God but live as though he doesn’t exist. (not saying this is you, it just might be considering your comments)
Could you explain the sacrifice JC made. I thought the Romans nailed him, did he have some choice in the matter? Also dont get the whole HE died for YOU thing, how is that, how is his execution been good for others? Please explain. Dont get it.
dr. Hannibal Lecter – despite my better judgement i’ll answer. The cross is NOT an idol. Idols are something that is worshiped. we do NOT worship the cross. As for the Bible, yes it is the word of God. But, I don’t understand half the things in there. We go to church and listen to the Word and then the priest explains it to us.
I had this *exact* same conversation with somebody else on this site. The cross is *not* an idol, end of story. If you think it is, that you are either confused about the meaning of the world “idol” or you are confused about the meaning of the symbol of the cross. No semantical argument you can make will change the fact that you are just plain wrong.
Science is not a religion…
Scientology is but not scienes
@DiscHuker:
Yes, and yes. I was raised so. I live by the ten commandments, not because church told me to but because I feel good about myself when I’m not breaking those. I know you may feel that my comments are not appropriate (about putting Bible on this list), but it is true that the misuse of the Scripture has caused a lot of pain. Sadly, this is a fact, no matter how ugly.
Also, while I do believe that God exists, I detest church in all its forms. The church has never ever done any good to the people, and I’m not talking about those exceptions of this rule, I’m talking about the church as an institution. Bunch of pharisees.
@alexlwe:
Why do you think they understand the word of God? Do they have some form of direct communication with Him? Let me remind you that the church is the oldest business organization in the world. They’ve survived all the wars in the last 2000 years. How is that? Is it because, for example, they are hypocrites? Is it because during the WW2 they blessed both allied and Nazi troops equally when they went to the battlefield? Ouch bad example. Here’s another. Is it because Nazi leaders escaped to South America through Vatican when Germany began to collapse? Ooops..
Regarding the cross: if you’re praying in front of a cross, it is my opinion that you’re worshiping it. Since God is omnipresent, why do you need a physical object to pray to Him?
If you build large statues of a cross, you have some serious commercial appetites. If you’re selling it $5 a piece, you’re just being a good businessman. If you’re holding mass (which, in my opinion is just a huge parody of teaching, as if the faith can be taught (unlike religion)) on television, then you’re just mocking everything that God stands for.
From wiki:
There is no one section that clearly defines idolatry; rather there are a number of commandments on this subject spread through the books of the Hebrew Bible, some of which were written in different historical eras, in response to different issues. Taking these verses together, idolatry in the Hebrew Bible is defined as either:
* the worship of idols (or images)
* the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images)
* the worship of animals or people
* the use of idols in the worship of God.
(Notice the last one!)
I wouldn’t use Zeitgeist as a platform for showing the dubious origins of religion. The entire thing is made up. And this is coming from an atheist with a keen interest in religion/mythology.
dr. hannibal lecter: I pity you if you the only good you’ve seen churches do for people can be explained by “exceptions of this rule”. I can personally take to to hundreds of churches in a small area that help citizens of the US and hundreds of other countries every day. According to my denominational beliefs, church is not an institution – it is where two or more gather in His name.
@trojan_man:
I AGREE! Church _should be_ where two or more gather in His name.
I’m sure the pope feels the same way when he wears his robes of gold and sleeps in his silk linen bed. I am also absolutely sure that he feels just terrible about the poor while driving in his expensive cars (not to mention bulletproof), wearing expensive clothes, etc. Then he goes up on the stand and says: you must be humble and modest.
Let me give you a sample of church-effect in Croatia. Croatia is a very small country, we have approx. 4.5 million people. We have fairly low standards, we’ve been through a war recently and the country is in a huge debt. What does the catholic church do? They start building monasteries worth over 500.000.000€. Half of billion euros! By our standards, I might as well work my entire life and never see that kind of cash.
So where did that money come from? Of course, from the poor, uneducated old women who go to church and give away nearly everything they have, “to help the poor”. Poor, of course, being the church one might presume. And priests, driving around in their expensive BMW/Mercedes cars, pretending they represent God?? While the poor continue to beg for food?
I’m sorry, I just don’t see the connection here. What scares me most is the fact that church drives people away from God, because they associate church with God, and seeing that the church is a bunch of corrupt bastards and even worse, pedophiles, they just stay clear of God.
Also, by “exceptions of this rule”, I mean individuals who are priests but are accidentally good people. Which is quite rare from my point of view.
dr. hannibal lecter: OK, I was confused at first. I thought you were saying all churches. You are explaining your thoughts on the Catholic church. Yes, I do agree with a lot of what you say about the pope and his minions. I have a few problems with the Catholic church, too. Confession, pope setting rules for an entire congregation world-wide, the way money is spent, hypocracy, etc.
sorry: “hypocrisy”
No problem. I’m not as familiar with other churches, I know there are variations and exceptions, and of course, people with good will and kindness.
I’m focusing on catholic church because they are #1 when comes to those things, although there are other I presume.
Generally, I make a huge difference between people who love God and respect His rules, and the “religious people” i.e. religion in general (my faith-religion distinction), regardless of which religion is in question.
Why is it that the bible is the first holy book on listverse to have a negative list?
also what is up with all the sarcasm in this list?
Anonymous: Maybe because its the best known religious book.
Sarcasm is probably here because its fun
dr. Hannibal Lecter – We NEVER pray to the cross. It’s simply there. As for priests, they study the bible, and yes i do believe that God has made it so they can understand. And no i’m not saying that God talks to them.
I’m not saying you’re praying *to* the cross, I wrote “in front of it”.
Now I’m curious, if it’s “simply there”, what’s the purpose? You can’t use it to worship God because that’s against his commandments. So, why have it at all? To traumatize small children? Don’t get me wrong, I’m just trying to understand this..
You’re also saying that God somehow discriminates you and me, and allows you to understand His word only if you’re a priest? I refuse to believe that. I think that He made me and you qualified enough to understand (without paying).
And honestly, some priests don’t even know that Jesus had brothers and sisters, that hardly makes them an authority on anything.
dr. lecter: I think you are confusing idol with symbol. Christians cannot see what Jesus did 2000 years ago so they represent that with a symbol. Christian prayer is talking with God, the cross is not a microphone. One does not need the cross to pray or worship, it is just a reminder of what He did for us. That is the way I see it. Others may take a different point of view.
Idol and symbol have almost the same meaning in my dictionary when it comes to God.
Honestly, I don’t need a reminder to know what Jesus did, so I don’t need the cross. I’m not sure why would anyone need it, it’s not that easy to forget the sacrifice.
But then again, I might regret that if I ever get the Alzheimer’s..
dr. lecter: ha, ha…good one. Actually, Christian symbols represent God and an idol “is” a particular god (to me). I think you are reading too much into it. No true Christian worships or needs to see a cross to be reminded. It is just a symbol…”take up thy cross and follow me” kind of stuff. Some people need a reminder. Some carry a Bible wherever they go, some have jewelry with symbols, some wear special clothing, etc. It probably means something different to each person. I do, however, disagree with people having symbols like that out of habit or to be “cool”.
“Christian symbols represent God”
That’s exactly what I don’t like. Nothing and no one _can_ represent God.
“I do, however, disagree with people having symbols like that out of habit or to be “cool”.”
I think that’s exactly what most people do. Including the catholic church, which – in my view – doesn’t have anything to do with God at all.
I think we can conclude that we agree to a certain degree
dr. lecter: Yes, I think a lot of the things that churches do (all churches) are habit from long ago. That is why there have been a huge number of non-denominational churches springing up in the US…younger people are drawn more to casual gatherings with the same message that has been taught for thousands of years.
Why is there even a question by anyone whether Adam and Eve had more children? It’s stated plainly in the Bible that after Cain and Abel they had Seth, then after Seth they had more sons and daughters (the number of which is not mentioned).
Genesis 3-4:
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters
So, ringtailroxy, you may have read the Bible several times, but you obviously didn’t pay attention, or you wouldn’t have made this statement:
“WHAT? So there where more children by Adam & Eve that where not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible?”
To answer your question, no, Adam and Eve did not have more children than what was mentioned in the Bible. Considering the Bible mentions that they indeed had an unspecified number of children (considering that Adam lived 930 years, it was probably quite a large number), and it’s not possible to have more children than an unspecified amount.
Atheists have been using strawman arguments against the Bible for a long time, this is nothing new, and your ignorance of the Bible is definitely not atypical.
As for mankind basically being the offspring of incest, remember that the laws were not introduced until thousands of years later. Mankind in his earliest incarnation would not have been affected genetically by incest like we are today. At the time there would not have been genetic imperfections, which were introduced slowly along the way.
Dont look at the bible too literal.maybe Adam and Eve was written simply to end all ideas and close down the question “where did we came from” maybe the main idea was to focus on God who created everything.
since we are all far too young to understand God’s thinking
and power and it’s a mind instinct to find a reason.
that’s why we all end up thinking literally;
stupid isnt it?
First time hearing the *****ualised comments on the Holy Book was shocking experience of mine because free speech boundaries vary among people.
Perhaps, this article is a bright testimony to a need on enduring the freedoms round a globe instantly.
@ cf :
we’re not too young at all : God did not create men, men created god(s), whether they are God, Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Jupiter etc. tec.
Blegug – God and Allah are the same…
alexwe… are any of these the same? GOD, Christ, The Holy Spirit, Allah, his Holiness Lord Melchizedek, Odin, Zeus, Mithras, Nimrod, Osiris, Horus, Amen-Ra, Thor, The Mahatma, Archangel Metatron, The Office of the Ein Soph, The Office of The Divine Mother, Jehovah, Yahweh, Jupiter, The Office of The Christ, Lord Buddha, Lord Maitreya, Sananda, Melchior, Vywamus, Mother Mary, Kwan Yin, Isis, Kuthumi, Mother Earth, Helios and Vesta, Archangels Gabriel and Hope, Archangels Michael and Faith, Archangels Jophiel and Christine, Paul the Venetian, Lord/ Lady of Arcturus and The Arcturians, The Ashtar Command, Ambassadors from Christed Extraterrestrial Races, Archangelic Councils, Councils of The Elohim, White Time Masters, Elohim Ecstasy, Intergalactic Federation of Planets, Lady Venus and Sanat Kumara, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Saint Germain and Lady Portia, Pallas Athena, Allah Gobi, The Chohans of the Seven Rays, Djwhal Khul, Angel of Bliss, Archangels of The Twelve Rays, Archangels of The Cosmic Rays and the Cosmic and Planetary Hierarchy, etc,etc,etc.
hmmm a lot of commments on this page
I wonder Jfrater, would you be up to doing a list of the 15 greatest insults heaped on Christianity (read Catholicism) in the jewish talmud? Or maybe just the top five blasphemy’s leveled at Jesus Christ and His holy mother Mary.
Somehow I suspect such a list will never be seen on this site.
You wouldn’t want to upset your masters.
pity.
Incipiat: you clearly do not know anything about me because your comment is so far from reality. While I don’t have the resources to write the list you suggest – if you would like to put it together and do so in a non-hating way, I will publish it here. You might want to look around at a few of the other religious lists – where you will find lists on incorruptible corpses, badass nuns, etc. This site is not anti-Catholic and I am not a Jew.
jfrater – Tell’em SteveDave!
Jfrater: So far as calling List Universe anti-Catholic where in my post did I say such. In the main body of my post a suggestion is made for a new list. No where in that paragraph did I say “List Universe is anti-Catholic”, or even imply it.
In my second sentence I simply stated that I did not believe I would ever see such a list.
Therefore the only thing that could be bothering you is my last sentence claiming that you wouldn’t create/post such a list because it might “upset your masters”.
What exactly upset you about that sentence? There is no implication that you “are” a jew, just simply that you work for them, knowingly or unknowingly.
And whether you like it or not, posting lists that will reasonably result in the vitriolic b*****ities leveled against Holy Mother Church is an aid to those who would see her destroyed; the jews.
However, I would like to note that I would not consider jews as the only members of the mastery sect , but all of Freemasonry as well.
Finally, I do not believe it is possible to make a list about jewish hatred in what could be considered a “non-hating” way. Due to the reality that anyone who list unpopular facts about the jews is instantly labeled anti-semitic and therefore a “hater”.
But you are right about one thing, I don’t know anything about you as a person, and I think it is reasonable to conclude that we will not be engaged in any friendly “get to know you” communications any time soon.
God Bless.
Incipiat – Holy smokes, something worse than a bigot. A conspiracy nut bigot.
I come from a long line of Roman Catholics loyal to the Holy Mother Church (your words – not mine), one of whom is on his way to becoming a bishop. None of them talk the way you do. None have fear of the Jewish conspiracy – because it doesn’t exist. Didn’t you know that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a hoax?
Did you forget to take your meds today? If that is not the case I would seriously suggest you make an appointment with the closest mental health professional in your area. There is help for you.
Tamala – Last time I checked that comment wasn’t aimed anywhere near you.
alexwe – as this comments section is open to anyone, you should keep in mind that ANYONE will comment on your remarks.
your reply is very typical of the sort of replies i used to get when i was 8 years old and asking awkward questions about the bible, you know the sort of replies that are designed to shut you up and stop asking anymore awkward questions.
Last time i checked you hadn’t came anywhere near answering the question….peace
Tamala – I refuse to answer smartass questions.
alexwe – youve done exactly what i wrote about in *155. So it comes as no suprise that you wont/cant answer the question, the tone of your reply above suggests that you are somewhat miffed, i hope i havent offended you, but if i have, then do the christian thing, simply forgive me and pray for me.
Tamala – Okay, fine. I’ll answer your question. In my religion, God and Christ are one. As for me doing the Christian thing, i forgive you. And you sound like you need praying for, so i’ll pray for you.
Genesis 5:3-5
3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
We do see Adam & Eve had many son’s and daughters over a period of 800 some years. Also scripture does not say exactly WHEN Cain took a wife. So yes, there were people brom Adam and Eve on the earth that Cain married. Possibly a sister or a neice. Not another creation of humans on the earth
Katy-Did – “So yes, there were people brom Adam and Eve on the earth that Cain married. Possibly a sister or a neice. Not another creation of humans on the earth”
Whether or not there were other people on the Earth at the time of Adam and Eve isn’t debatable. If you think otherwise then you need to read through it again, and yes, once more, I’ll recommend that you use a Strong’s concordance.
It just doesn’t make any sense.
Also, the seedline of Adam is documented in Gen. so, if you have any questions on who begat who, you can check there too.
From this moment on, I officially give up my Christian beliefs. I can’t believe God likes this kind of stuff…
I won’t let my children get exposed to such materials like the Bible. I’d rather see them reading a playboy magazine.
Denzell – You must not have had strong Christian beliefs if you’re willing to give up your faith that quickly. If you didn’t notice, God doesn’t like this sort of thing. In fact, the Bible has these stories to warn us of the dangers of relationships like so and denounces them.
i knew a guy who lost his faith after he was hit by a car and was clinically dead for eight minutes.
he claimed nothing happen while he was dead, he didn’t see a “light” or anything like that
MPW – It’s not technically possible for someone to be dead for eight minutes and then come back to life. If a person goes without breathing for six minutes, then the brain would be completely dead. And, I might add, six minutes only if the person was in great shape.
you didnt answer the comment again!!!! he wouldve seen the light by the 6th minute wouldnt he? He wouldve seen it in 6 seconds? How long do you have to be dead before you see “the light”
Leon – What the hell are you ranting about? The guy probably wasn’t dead, thats why he didn’t see the light. And how the hell should I know when you see the light, or if you see a light at all? Have I died?
i didnt make it up, that is what he told me
he was clinically dead and he wasnt the first to be clinically dead and calm yourself before you pop a blood vessel
MPW – I wasn’t suggesting that you made it up, just that no one can be dead for that long and come back. And I also wasn’t yelling at you, I was yelling at Leon for twisting my words around.
alexwe arent there many instances in the bible pf people being dead for more than 6 minutes and coming back to life?
Elijah brought back to life the son of a widow. (1 Kings 17:22).
Elisha the prophet also brought a child back from the dead,
he stretched himself out on him; then the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes (2 Kings 4:32-35 )
Scripture says the body of the dead prophet Elisha was instrumental in bringing a prophet back from the dead. (2 Kings 13:20,21).
Lazarus had been dead four days when Jesus brought Him back to life (John 11:41-44).
The daughter of a man named Jairus was raised from the dead by Jesus. (Luke 8:52-55).
There was a woman in the city of Nain who had a son who died. The Bible says that Jesus brought her son back from the dead. (Luke 7:14,15).
There was also a woman named Dorcas, or Tabitha, whom Peter raised from the dead. (Acts 9:40,41).
In the Book of Acts, we have the account of Paul bringing a young man named Eutychus back from the dead. (Acts 20:9-11).
I take it they were all dead for less than 8 minutes??
Maybe people then had better medical capabilities than they have been given credit for?
Or could it be that these stories are allegorical and not meant to be taken literally??
Leon – Acts of God. But the one MPW talked about certainly doesn’t sound like an act of God to me.
alexlwe yet AGAIN you dont answer the question but instead come away with a statement designed to shut people up and stop asking any more awkward questions….. what is an act of god? Does he/she still perform these acts? or were they for a time when people were a little less sophisticated or knowledgable? 5 of the examples of ressurection i gave you weren’t performed by god or even jesus, do they still count as acts of god? and what exactly was gods involvement in them? I cant help wondering why god would let them die and in the first place if he was going to bring them back from the dead? What kind of sick twisted cruel perverted joke is that? And please please dont say “god works in mysterious ways” that answer is for 5 year olds.
When John Paul II was shot,who saved him? was it god? or was it as he claimed “our lady of fatima”? or could it have maybe been the team of surgoens who operated for 6 hours?
And i repeat my question from *170…
“Or could it be that these stories are allegorical and not meant to be taken literally??”
i have a queestion then a comment….my sister is involved in a *****ual relationship with her uncle(her fathers brother)I cant get them to understand that what they are doing is wrong. They have it set in there mind that because it was done with Adam and Eves children then it is ok for them. They dont care that God changed the rules after the world was populated enough that he didnt feel it was neccesary to keep having children in that manner (thank God she had her tubes tied and cant have children with him) Is there any proof anywhere in the bible that says that God does not want it to happen. I know leviticus? has a section but that concerns mostly parents and children and if so where would it be. i need to show it to them.
i was raised catholic all the way to my first communion and then a couple years after that, but as an adult i’ve heard alot of stories that contradict what i’ve learned. I’m confused on what to believe and what not to. I hear stories that there are books that were hidden away by the Vatican because they are detrimental to The Church, that stories were made up by leaders to scare people into there beliefs that stories were even changed around to make people believe what they want. Pagans were burned for being witches because Pagans believe in strong females and that was against what leaders wanted at the time. I’m having a hard time believing what i’m told. I strongly believe in God and Jesus and the miricles that they did…but who is to say that alot of what was said or what was written was actually real? I’m not wanting to offend anyone at all with these questions but other then believing there is a God and there is heaven what do I do with the rest of the stuff that is said or done? I do believe that there is curruption in the Roman Catholic church and who is to say that back 1500 years ago things weren’t made up for the benifit of the Church. It is a constant wrestling match for me and my beliefs.
drummersgirl you raise a lot of good and justifiable points and you show that almost anything in life can be justified by a few words from the bible due to peoples misunderstanding or deliberate egotistical mirepresentation.
I dont know if the story you tell is a battle of right versus wrong or between temptation versus discipline,
i suspect the latter, so no amount of quotes from the bible would help.
Like you i was raised a strict catholic, and although i dont believe any of it anymore i sometimes still get a bit defensive about the catholic church. There is no doubt that the church has hidden many many things from people over the centuries and been involved in some of the most awful crimes ever commited, however we need to seperate the institution from the lay members. power corrupts, and the lust for power will make ordinarily good people quiet literally sell their soul.
As for what is real i offer you this quote from richard dawkins book “the god delusion” …..
[Pope John Paul II] suffered an assassination attempt in Rome, and attributed his survival to intervention by Our Lady of Fatima: ‘A maternal hand guided the bullet’. One cannot help but wonder why she didn’t guide it to miss him altogether. Others might think the team of surgeons who operated on him for six hours deserved at least a share of the credit. But perhaps their hands too were maternally guided. The relevant point is that it wasn’t just Our Lady, who in the Pope’s opinion guided the bullet, but specifically Our Lady of Fatima. Presumably Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadeloupe, Our Lady of Medjugorje, Our Lady of Akita, Our Lady of Zeitoun, Our Lady of Garabandal, and Our Lady of Knock, were busy on other errands at the time…..
That kinda sums it up for me. I have the greatest empathy for you because i know it can be a real struggle when you begin to doubt what you have believed your whole life, all i can advise you is to be true to yourself, make your OWN mind up, ask awkward questions and dont accept convenient answers designed to shut you up.
You DO have a choice what you want to believe, my own belief is, if i dont believe in god, then i cant go to hell.
I sincerely wish you peace of mind in which ever way your belief takes you.
What is the purpose of these rape stories in Bible?These can be words of Historians but not of God.
Here is the case, there are things that God allowed for His purpose and for His glory because He is God. The law came to existence during latter time as it is stated in Leviticus. However, a law will only be effective after it is declared and known. So what’s incestous now, is not incestous before the law since it is not under the law. So I we cannot say that all of the relationships stated here are incestous. Since the concept of the sin “incest” was declared only as a a part of the Levitical law. FYI.
K. Now that I have found this site where I can get it all out, I have many, many questions. Or thoughts or what have you.
Lot laid with both his daughters, right? According to the writings in the bible, his daughters plied him with wine to get him drunk and lay with him???????? Somehow, it seems to me that MAN decided this was plausible.
As a matter of fact, if your objective about the bible, it seems as though it is a handbook written by man in ancient times…..to keep order for his little world, marrying multiple wives, laying with daughters and sisters and mothers and so on.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe in God, in a higher power. However, the books of the bible were written by MAN. Some of it as dictated from God, other parts authored because God wanted them to tell all other mankind of his word.
How do we know that some of those men, did not ad lib? Fib? Write it to suit themselves? OR to quelch their fears of how they came about? Of a way to explain the universe and man’s existence because of fear of the unknown?
I mean, if you go by the biblical begats and stuff, this MEANS WE ARE ALL PRODUCTS OF INCEST. INCEST IS INCEST AND SHOULD BE WRONG, EVEN THEN.
If God had the ability to create Adam and Eve, then why didn’t he just whip up multiple unrelated men, and then spouses from their ribs……or maybe a footbone. Ya know.
Why did God choose to create such a weak creature as man? Why was it that man’s weakness (found in his dumbstick, btw)had to do with a woman, the woman tempting him? THe woman being more at fault than the MAN.
If we were to go by the leanings of the Bible, God is definitely a man!
Women getting their father drunk and taking “advantage” of him sounds to me like an excuse for a man to justify carnal knowledge of his own daughters and the laid out excuse that his daughters got him drunk…………..and he did not know what he was doing. This truly bothers me.
If you grew up in the Christian church as I did, you learn something. Preachers then seemed to feel the need to explain away such things as people had questions about. Like divorce. According to the bible, it is wrong. However, ministers in congregations with people of divorce, you will notice ministers water down these sermons so these divorcee’s will still donate to the collection plate and feel better about themselves.
I realize some think that God created many other people and it just didn’t get mentioned IN GREAT LENGTH in the bible, but then how come they ran out of men? I mean for Lot’s girls? Men seemed to live longer lives than their wives. (No wonder, the women had the babies out in the crop fields while harvesting, then went back to work straightaway)
I just see many inconsistencies within the bible and the teachings of the bible. I see many whom use the Bible to suit their agendas.
I believe God may operate more like the movie that was made that starred “George Burns” than in the way we have been led to believe.
I believe in the Bible as a historical document.
Look at how organized religion works around the world. People use it to keep order, which is good. People also use it to “keep fear” in people.
Most of all, the Bible, definitely the old testament, works in favor of MAN. With woman being secondary. The new testament does as well.
I see the book authored by men mostly, in an effort to be in power, in charge and in control at all times and to have NO other men, women or even children question the world around them. Kind of like the rule books handed out at school at the beginning of the school year, if you will.
But, hey, just 400 years ago, they believed they should burn people who thought different.
500 or more years ago, during King Henry’s reign for example, religion were batted around to get it to fit the way King Henry the 8th wanted his politics to go. IT was a power struggle between him and the Emperor of Spain.
I simply have a hard time believing that once upon a time incest was fine to populate the earth and is now wrong. In my mind, it is always wrong.
If God created Adam, then it seems God would have created an entire population of people, so no incest.
Thoughts?
The Bible is bull*****
there are some valuable lessons “i.e. love is patient, love is kind” but it’s impossible that it’s the word of God and all that. It’s a book written by corrupt old men who wanted people to submit to their decisions, and the book itself was even more corrupted over the ages by people who didn’t like its readings, added notes, tore out pages, etc etc until final printings began to include these notes and disregard previously included sections, until half of it made no sense or portrayed awful things like incest and rape.
Amber: the Latin Vulgate was translated in the 300s – it is the official Catholic Bible – it has not been changed since then. So yes – some editions of the Bible are corrupted – ie, Martin Luther removed some books and added some words, but the Catholic Bible is unchanged. So while I won’t debate your contention that it was written by corrupt old men, I can at least tell you that we are certain the book today is the same as it was in 300. Oh – and Jerome – who made the Vulgate was 35 when he started it – so he wasn’t a particularly old man
This is an interesting discussion. I have always been interested as to why Bible was filled with so many inconsistancies and incestual relations almost right from the first page, however no good Christian could explain it to me. Now if God created Adam and Eve, and he never ever meant for them to uncover the forbidden desires, then how is that after they fell from the grace of God, all of a sudden there were other people on earth? God just decided OK, now that they are having *****, I might as well populate earth with more humans so that Adam and Eve’s sons (the two sons they had, no mention of any daughters here) can also have ***** and so on? Now that defies logic. Either God did not create Adam and Eve at all, or Bible is wrong and is not really word of God at all. Does anyone wonder why good Catholic priests are abusing children? ha, looks like Bible permist incest, not to mention pedophile tendencies as some of these females they are talking about are not what we would consider a consenting adult.
Nuff said