The Middle Ages spanned roughly from the 5th century to the 16th century – a total of 1,100 years. During the time following the Middle Ages (which is often referred to as the Enlightenment), the previous millennium was criticized and condemned – just as we now condemn the actions of some during the Victorian Period (sexual prudishness for example). Many of the writers of the newly invented Protestant movement harshly attacked the Middle Ages because of its Catholicity. Unfortunately many of the myths and misconceptions that sprung up at the time are still believed today. This list aims to set things straight.
Myth: The death penalty was common in the Middle Ages
Despite what many people believe, the Middle Ages gave birth to the jury system and trials were in fact very fair. The death penalty was considered to be extremely severe and was used only in the worst cases of crimes like murder, treason, and arson. It was not until the Middle Ages began to draw to a close that people like Elizabeth I began to use the death penalty as a means to rid their nations of religious opponents. Public beheadings were not as we see in the movies – they were given only to the rich, and were usually not performed in public. The most common method of execution was hanging – and burning was extremely rare (and usually performed after the criminal had been hanged to death first).
Myth: Bibles were locked away to keep the people from seeing the “true word”
During the Middle Ages (until Gutenberg came along) all books had to be written by hand. This was a painstaking task which took many months – particularly with a book as large as the Bible. The job of hand-printing books was left to monks tucked away in monasteries. These books were incredibly valuable and they were needed in every Church as the Bible was read aloud at Mass every day. In order to protect these valuable books, they would be locked away. There was no conspiracy to keep the Bible from the people – the locks meant that the Church could guarantee that the people could hear the Bible (many wouldn’t have been able to read) every day. And just to show that it wasn’t just the Catholic Church that locked up the Bibles for safety, the most famous “chained bible” is the “Great Bible” which Henry VIII had created and ordered to be read in the protestant churches. You can read more about that here. The Catholic diocese of Lincoln makes a comment on the practice here.
Myth: The poor were kept in a state of near starvation
This is completely false. Peasants (those who worked in manual work) would have had fresh porridge and bread daily – with beer to drink. In addition, each day would have an assortment of dried or cured meats, cheeses, and fruits and vegetables from their area. Poultry, chicken, ducks, pigeons, and geese were not uncommon on the peasants dinner table. Some peasants also liked to keep bees, to provide honey for their tables. Given the choice between McDonalds and Medieval peasant food, I suspect the peasant food would be more nutritious and tasty. The rich of the time had a great choice of meats – such as cattle, and sheep. They would eat more courses for each meal than the poor, and would probably have had a number of spiced dishes – something the poor could not afford. Wikipedia has an interesting article here which describes the mostly vegetable and grain diet of the peasants in the early Middle Ages, leading to more meat in the later period.
Myth: Peasants had thatched roofs with animals living in them
First of all, the thatched roofs of Medieval dwellings were woven into a tight mat – they were not just bundles of straw and sticks thrown on top of the house. Animals would not easily have been able to get inside the roof – and considering how concerned the average Middle Ager was, if an animal did get inside, they would be promptly removed – just as we remove birds or other small creatures that enter our homes today. And for the record, thatched roofs were not just for the poor – many castles and grander homes had them as well – because they worked so well. There are many homes in English villages today that still have thatched roofs.
Myth: People didn’t bathe in the Middle Ages, therefore they smelled bad
Not only is this a total myth, it is so widely believed that it has given rise to a whole other series of myths, such as the false belief that Church incense was designed to hide the stink of so many people in one place. In fact, the incense was part of the Church’s rituals due to its history coming from the Jewish religion which also used incense in its sacrifices. This myth has also lead to the strange idea that people usually married in May or June because they didn’t stink so badly – having had their yearly bath. It is, of course, utter rubbish. People married in those months because marriage was not allowed during Lent (the season of penance). So, back to smelly people. In the Middle Ages, most towns had bathhouses – in fact, cleanliness and hygiene was very highly regarded – so much so that bathing was incorporated into various ceremonies such as those surrounding knighthood. Some people bathed daily, others less regularly – but most people bathed. Furthermore, they used hot water – they just had to heat it up themselves, unlike us with our modern plumbed hot water. The French put it best in the following Latin statement: Venari, ludere, lavari, bibere; Hoc est vivere! (To hunt, to play, to wash, to drink, – This is to live!)
Myth: Peasants lived a life of drudgery and back-breaking work
In fact, while peasants in the Middle Ages did work hard (tilling the fields was the only way to ensure you could eat), they had regular festivals (religious and secular) which involved dancing, drinking, games, and tournaments. Many of the games from the time are still played today: chess, checkers, dice, blind man’s bluff, and many more. It may not seem as fun as the latest game for the Wii, but it was a great opportunity to enjoy the especially warm weather that was caused by the Medieval Warming Period.
Myth: The Middle Ages were a time of great violence
While there was violence in the Middle Ages (just as there had always been), there were no equals to our modern Stalin, Hitler, and Mao. Most people lived their lives without experiencing violence. The Inquisition was not the violent bloodlust that many movies and books have claimed it to be, and most modern historians now admit this readily. Modern times have seen genocide, mass murder, and serial killing – something virtually unheard of before the “enlightenment”. In fact, there are really only two serial killers of note from the Middle Ages: Elizabeth Bathory, and Gilles de Rais. For those who dispute the fact that the Inquisition resulted in very few deaths, Wikipedia has the statistics here showing that there were (at most) 826 recorded executions over a 160 year period – from 45,000 trials!
Myth: Women were oppressed in the Middle Ages
In the 1960s and 1970s, the idea that women were oppressed in the Middle Ages flourished. In fact, all we need to do is think of a few significant women from the period to see that that is not true at all: St Joan of Arc was a young woman who was given full control of the French army! Her downfall was political and would have occurred whether she were male or female. Hildegard von Bingen was a polymath in the Middle Ages who was held in such high esteem that Kings, Popes, and Lords all sought her advice. Her music and writing exists to this day. Elizabeth I ruled as a powerful queen in her own right, and many other nations had women leaders. Granted women did not work on Cathedrals but they certainly pulled their weight in the fields and villages. Furthermore, the rules of chivalry meant that women had to be treated with the greatest of dignity. The biggest difference between the concept of feminism in the Middle Ages and now is that in the Middle Ages it was believed that women were “equal in dignity, different in function” – now the concept has been modified to “equal in dignity and function”.
Myth: People in the Middle Ages believed the earth was flat
Furthermore, people did not believe the Earth was the center of the universe – the famous monk Copernicus dealt a death blow to that idea (without being punished) well before Galileo was tried for heresy for claiming that it proved the Bible was wrong. Two modern historians recently published a book in which they say: “there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference.”
Myth: People of the Middle Ages were crude and ignorant
Thanks largely to Hollywood movies, many people believe that the Middle Ages were full of religious superstition and ignorance. But in fact, leading historians deny that there is any evidence of this. Science and philosophy blossomed at the time – partly due to the introduction of Universities all over Europe. The Middle ages produced some of the greatest art, music, and literature in all history. Boethius, Boccaccio, Dante, Petrarch, and Machiavelli are still revered today for their brilliant minds. The cathedrals and castles of Europe are still standing and contain some of the most beautiful artwork and stonework man has been able to create with his bare hands. Medicine at the time was primitive, but it was structured and willing to embrace new ideas when they arose (which is how we have modern medicine).
Contributor: JFrater

























January 8th, 2009 at 1:50 am
great list!
January 8th, 2009 at 1:50 am
An interesting list. I was taken in by several of those lists.
January 8th, 2009 at 1:53 am
man, the things that happen when i stay up until 4 am…
…yeah, i don’t have a lot going on
January 8th, 2009 at 1:56 am
Redcaboose: I hope you mean you were taken in by several of those “myths” not “lists”
January 8th, 2009 at 1:57 am
Regarding no.9, there is still a myth in my country(India) that the language Sanskrit was forbidden to be spoken by some lower caste people(in middle ages).
January 8th, 2009 at 1:59 am
jfrater: You keep cranking out excellent lists! You’re on a roll! I love this list, and it’s always fun to learn new things. History is one of my favorite subjects.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:04 am
An interesting addition to the ‘burning @ the stake’ mention up there.
Very VERY few ppl who were sentenced to be burned @ the stake actually burned alive (There’s only 2 or 3 documented cases where its said the crowd could hear the screams of the accused etc.). Generally what happened (and the fire was set in a way FOR this to happen) was that the accused either lapsed into unconsiousness or death due to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached him or her.
Or (this was sometimes done as a ‘favor’ to those to be executed) small bags of gunpowder were tied in the armpits and groin of the accused so that they would go off in the flames and hasten the accused’s death.
yea pointless trivia but hey thats what this site is all about
January 8th, 2009 at 2:10 am
Theres like an obsession with the Middle ages on this site. Not that I’m complaining. I’ve learned a lot today! : )
January 8th, 2009 at 2:13 am
give me a time machine. middle age sounds fantastic.
what an informative list. well done!
January 8th, 2009 at 2:15 am
Soon, Jfrater will know all the secrets of the universe. And then he’ll make a top ten list and share them with the rest of us. I hope..
January 8th, 2009 at 2:17 am
Well well… The Middle Ages spans over almost 1000 years.
From the end of the last Western Roman Emperor in 476 to approximately 1500 (sometimes we consider 1492 to be the end of the middle ages).
So things have changed over these 1000 years, and it is a little excessive to consider the Middle Ages as a whole, homogeneous…
For example, the tradition of hygiene dates back to the romans who had an extensive use of public baths. And yes they were clean. But it is said the catholic church considered these places to be places of sin (and they were not totally wrong since many of those public baths had more or less turned into brothels), and had them closed.
So the people were probably cleaner in the beginning of the Middle Ages and dirtier in the end. I have read description of the french royal court under Henry the IVth (~1600) or Louis the XIVth (1650-1700), that is after the Middle Ages, and it seemed really awful !… I ever wonder how people could actually survive with such filth !..
January 8th, 2009 at 2:22 am
Love the list, but I have to disagree with a couple of things. The one about women not being oppressed isn’t exactly true. They had a respected place, its true, but under law they had little rights. There were few cases where a woman could own property, and if crimes were committed by or against her, she was dealt with differently than if she were a man.
The examples you point out are by far the minority. These were special women who stood out in history as being vastly different from any other woman, and should be treated as such.
The following link is a great source for medieval history, we use it in all my courses at uni. Not specifically relevant, but if you are ever looking for supporting primary sources, its awesome!
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/Sbook.html
Another thing is just the crude and ignorant thing. The majority of the people didn’t have access to education, and like you pointed out in the locked books thing, couldn’t read. It was only the secular and noble classes that had access to education. It is true however that this is the period in which universities were being formed, for which I am very happy with!
I think the violence everywhere myth has some basis in the truth, if only in the law codes. Especially early in the period, a lot of justice was carried out locally, and would involve a (very complex) code of punishments. This could involve things like…well, its too much to list, look for yourself;
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/560-975dooms.html#The%20Laws%20of%20%C3%86thelberht
I’m always happy to see medieval related lists here, keep it up!!
January 8th, 2009 at 2:23 am
Great list! Working in an Irish Viking/Medieval centre means we get a lot of people who have all these preconceptions about life in these times so we have to explain the truth to a lot of people. Oh and I presume you meant Elizabeth I in number 3 (sorry to be that corresctive nerd….).
January 8th, 2009 at 2:30 am
Somehow, I don’t want to view peasants from the middle ages as clean, well-fed people. It kinda takes away from the charm.
And I agree with warningdontreadthis. It’s gonna be awesome.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:37 am
“It may not seem as fun as the latest game for the Wii, but it…”
Well I’m pretty sure almost anything is more fun then using a Wii…sorry but it had to be said.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:43 am
I completely disagree with #3. As Penguinball said, women had very few legal rights during the Medieval times, and the examples you cite defy the norm. So few women from this time period made it into the history books because the majority stuck to the societal norm of not making a mark on the world outside their home. The role of mother and homemaker was indispensable then, as it is now, but any woman who stepped outside that role was seen as a deviant and a rule-breaker. Sounds like oppression to me.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:01 am
I LOVE LISTVERSE!!!
January 8th, 2009 at 3:05 am
great list ! thank you
January 8th, 2009 at 3:23 am
Weak list imo because there are no sources given.
3) You name Elizabeth II as an Example but I think you mean Elizabeth I which died in the early 17th century. That mean she does not really belong in a Middle Age List
January 8th, 2009 at 3:30 am
Barabas i shall cast you down in the feiry depths of hell!! how dare you speak like that to the great jfrater
January 8th, 2009 at 3:40 am
Thanks jfrater for “lighting up” my mornings at work
January 8th, 2009 at 3:51 am
arnaud
Technically the middle ages didn’t span 1000 years.
the period from roughly 1000 AD – 1200 AD was technically considered the ‘dark ages’ not the middle ages.
and thats all i remember from my ancient history course lol.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:05 am
Sorry but as Arnaus said it is hard to say something general about a 1000 year era without giviing any sources.
1) “Science and philosophy blossomed at the time – partly due to the introduction of Universities all over Europe.”
A University in the Middle Age was really really small (often just around 10 students). Education was avaible only to the aristocrats. Most people could not even read.
Boethius 5th-6th century (not really Middle Age)
Boccaccio, early Renaissance
Petrarch, early Renaissance
Machiavelli clearly Renaissance. The prince is a book about political theory so it is cleary not from the Middle Ages.
So the examples given are really weak. better ones for intersting of the middle ages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meister_Eckhart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism
)
Scholasticism was the dominant form of theology and philosophy and it was pretty much about repeating stuff that was already written down.
(sry for wiki Links, but the better ones I have are in German
4) Do not forget that the Crusades also started because the pope wanted to stop feudes in Europe! We have lots of unemployed knights at that time in Europe. After the Crusades in the holy land Crusaders conquered party of eastern Europe pretty much just to have something to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights#Russia
6)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death#Signs_and_symptoms
Sure some people did bath but keeping water in a city is not cheap and a lot of Roman knowledge was lost so how could the mass have access to clea water? Might be that I am missing something but I just can not see how this worked O_o
January 8th, 2009 at 4:10 am
Might want to fix #3. I know Lizzy 2 is old, but I didn’t think she was *that* old…
January 8th, 2009 at 4:32 am
loves it
January 8th, 2009 at 4:39 am
Long time reader, first time poster, thanks, for hours of countless enjoyment! You will be seeing plenty of me in the future.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:40 am
An interesting concept to make a list about….
…But I do agree with above, I disagree with the women thing…women were probably treated with respect in a community, and women would run the home, but under laws and in court, women would be nothing.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:47 am
As so many are saying, you’re on a roll, JayFray! There are times when Listverse is such a treasure chest of the unexpected. I see more and more “list” sites being trucked out on the net, but they just don’t have the depth, the spark, the literacy — well, hey, they don’t have you, Jamie. Plus the community around the site — so many good commenters.
January 8th, 2009 at 5:06 am
Once again another great list. I never realized how my view of the middle ages is so wrong. Of course never really reserched it to much
January 8th, 2009 at 5:11 am
Like others, I have to disagree with the item about women.
And I’m pretty sure the Inquisition was pretty horrible for those involved, too, so let’s not downplay that too much.
January 8th, 2009 at 5:25 am
I’m worried about the dating here, too. There is no universally agreed end to the Middle Ages. Pointers were the fall of Constantinople, the end of the Hundred Year’ War, the development (in Europe) of printing, the end of the War of the Roses, the uniting of the Spanish crown, the expulsion of the Moors from Spain, the voyage of Columbus and the Protestant Reformation. Generally, the latest date for the end of the Middle Ages has to be 1517, which means that Elizabeth I doesn’t belong here.
“The inquisition” is possibly a misconception of its own. There were “inquisitions”, of which the Spanish one is most famous, but this was not founded until 1478, by any calculation right at the end of the Middle Ages. The Roman Inquisition, which morphed into the current-day Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, wasn’t founded until 1542.
I heartily recommend the first 8 items of http://listverse.com/music/20-great-choral-works-from-before-1750/ as background music for this list.
January 8th, 2009 at 5:31 am
I wasn’t expecting the Spanish Inquisition!
January 8th, 2009 at 5:42 am
How true all these are. Yet sometimes we forget all the great deeds of the middle ages and begin to think that they were all barbaric
January 8th, 2009 at 6:44 am
JFrater: Wait wait, wait! We can’t just generalize 1,000 years of history just like that! This had already happened with a previous Middle Ages list you’d done before (Top 10 reasons the Dark Ages were not dark).
There were THREE different Middle Ages:
The Early Middle Ages,
The High Middle Ages,
and the Late Middle Ages.
What this list is doing is generalizing the Middle Ages to mean just the Early and High middle ages.
How is that a bad thing?
Well, the Early and High Middle Ages were fine (as the list roughly describes), but the Late Middle Ages were absolutely terrible, barbaric, and miserable!
How so? Well, for starters, you got the brutal Inquisition, when there was indeed extreme violence everywhere due to Catholicism, and lots of stake burning without fair trials (such as for saying that the Earth wasn’t flat!). Also, Europe suffered a situation of overpopulation, which led to great poverty and terrible famines. Not only that, but later the Black Death hit, which effectively killed half of the population with its gruesome disease.
This whole situation also led to a period of great poverty, superstition, and ignorance. There were many violent peasant revolts, not to mention the many great wars that occurred during that time. Some even call this the Crisis of the Late Middle Ages.
So it would seem (although I’m no expert), that the Late Middle Ages is from where all these myths come from, but sadly, many of them are not myths, they were terrible realities back then.
January 8th, 2009 at 6:50 am
This is another great list. I learned some new things. I guess Monty Python and the Holy Grail shouldn’t have been my main reference source.
January 8th, 2009 at 6:53 am
A little addendum to what I said: There were many Inquisitions during and after the Middle Ages, and although it wasn’t as bad as the later Inquisitions (such as the Spanish Inquisition), the Medieval Inquisition was still pretty bad, especially because the Pope at that time (Innocent IV) approved the use of torture by inquisitors (with the “Ars Exstirpanda”).
January 8th, 2009 at 6:57 am
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
January 8th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Kreachure,
You said: “How so? Well, for starters, you got the brutal Inquisition, when there was indeed extreme violence everywhere due to Catholicism, and lots of stake burning without fair trials (such as for saying that the Earth wasn’t flat!). Also, Europe suffered a situation of overpopulation, which led to great poverty and terrible famines.”
Most scholars say that the death toll for the Spanish Inquisition was between 3000-5000 and in fact it was the state that carried out the punishment, not the Church. While one death is one to many and in no way do I defend the acts that did take place, the idea that there was “extreme violence” from Catholicism is still old propaganda stemming from the protestant reformation. Protestants had their own “inquisitions” and acts of violence during that time as well.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:04 am
JFrater are you out of your mind?
‘Given the choice between McDonalds and Medieval peasant food, I suspect the peasant food would be more nutritious and tasty.’
This is totally untrue. If these peasants were presented with a hot batch of salty fries out of the deep fryer, they would do what we all do, go with the extra large combo and walk around the rest of the day in a sluggish near coma. For the love of Pete, those things drive me into a feeding frenzy! Have you ever had the Sausage McMuffin? Oh my Gaaawwd! It’s so delicious I think it’s made out of heroin mixed with chocolate fudge with candy sprinkles!
Uh, let’s see I can either have a hot steaming bowl of gruel with a few bits of salted pork blubber and wash it down with the ale of the day which was probably mixed with cow dung, or I can have a Chicken Select sandwich with 5 pounds of hot fries and a giant coke to boot, hmmmmm, let me see. Oh and I can get a deep fried apple pie? Well I love me some mealy gruel and I love chewing on gristle, but I gotta go with the Micky D’s combo!
What’s that? I can get that 60 seconds after I order it? What? I can have Bacon on it too? Slather it up in some spicy Mayo? Whereas the hot gruel has been boiling inside a iron pot since they replaced the last Pope and the brew can also be used for axle grease?
Wow, that’s a hard choice . . .
January 8th, 2009 at 7:21 am
What a fascinating list! Although I have to agree that the women cited in the example where the exception, not the norm.
31. McSquida: True, but I think what Jamie was trying to convey is that there is a myth surrounding the Inquisition that makes it out as much more bloody and widespead than it actually was (look up the Black Legend or La Leyenda Negra regarding the Spanish Inquisition).
January 8th, 2009 at 7:21 am
This stuff is all good to know, but I kind’ve wish all these myths were true. The violent, starving, dirty Middle Ages seem a lot more fun than the one described here.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:32 am
I thought this list would be boring but it was very entertaining. However, it is a very general list of what is considered the “middle ages” because as other as already pointed out, the later part of the middle ages were some of the most violent and harshest times in history.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:38 am
39. Steelman: Well said.
Kreachure: As I said in my above post, there is now a concept called the Black Legend that seeks to clear up the misconception of the brutality of the Spanish Inquisition. It was partly English propaganda in the time of Elizabeth I created to foster national unity against a “common and brutal enemy”.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:39 am
Were are the sources? This whole list does not seem to be very trustworthy without a link to your sources. I’m not saying you made this stuff up, but how can we be sure…
January 8th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Anyway, jfrater, I have to say that this is now one of my favorite lists! I will not longer be doing any actual work as I will spend the rest of the day researching this stuff. Thanks!!
*sighs happily and hopes not to get fired!*
January 8th, 2009 at 7:47 am
Can somebody educate us more as to when are the years of middle ages? Especially those early,high, and later middle ages.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Jfrater:
Jamie, you’ve really got a thing for the Middle Ages, don’t you?
This, along with your other recent lists, is both VERY good and very well researched… so kudos for that… however…
Far be it for me to accuse my virtual friend Jamie of being a tad… biased… shall we say… but you know… well… bucslim alone has already pointed out one big overstatement here.
I mean, let’s remember that the “Middle Ages” comprises a vast span of time… in essence from around AD 550 or so (with the fall of the Roman Empire in the west) to around, arguably, AD 1400 or so (with the beginnings of the Renaissance). Almost 900 years. The so-called Dark Ages run from around AD 550 to, oh… say, AD 800 or so. Around the time of Charlemagne–which is generally believed, with good reason, to be the conclusion of the dark period.
Hardly a homogenous stretch of time then. SOME of the Middle Ages were clearly nasty and brutish, and the privation and suffering was terrible. Also, clearly, some of it was not. Particularly after the conclusion of the two or three centuries of the “Dark Ages”, and particularly in courts, in places like Burgundy, for instance–things could be downright pleasant. But for all the sundry serfs and peasants all over such a vast area as all of Europe, with all its varying kingdoms and fiefdoms and whatnotdoms? Nah, come on… in GENERAL we have to say it was still not the happies time to be alive.
We have a tendency, we Moderns, to hate our own times, (with good reason) and to have this innate cynicism about ourselves and our lineage and particularly about our future. But this is because A) we gained a consciousness of a sort that allowed us to feel indignant about conditions around us (which took time to build up and affect any change in said conditions) and B) because the TWENTIETH century was such a godawful time of horror, wholesale murder and misery. All true. But has the period since the Enlightenment really been all that bad? Well… yes and no. But were the Middle Ages all that great, either?
It just shows that we can’t generalize. Would I choose to live in Stalin’s Russia in the 30s, or Nazi Germany of the same period, vs. living in, say, a Burgundy fiefdom of the 1200s? Well… I’d probably pick the 1200s, to be sure. But America in 1800 vs. a district on the Rhine in 1300? Nah… no choice. I’d take America in 1800 any day.
Which is not to say that I think you’re claiming to PREFER the Middle Ages. I’m just trying to put this into perspective.
Cleanliness in the Middle Ages? Amongst the rich and powerful, sure. Amongst the peasantry? Not so much. Amongst the FRENCH? Never. Is there a dirtier people on this Earth, at least in the developed world? Even today? I speak jokingly of course… but only partly. I’ve known my share of French citizens, and I’ve known my share of non-French Europeans who share the judgement. The Swedes think the French and the Dutch smell.
But seriously… your point about Copernicus leaves a little tidbit out. He wasn’t punished because he waited until he was about to DIE before he published his views on the heliocentric solar system. He then proceeded to cack out, death being a good enough excuse (but not always) from persecution by the church. There’s little doubt that had Copernicus published sooner, with no such caution, that he would have suffered the same choice Galileo later was offered, which was not a nice one. Again, yes, at varying times in the Middle Ages there was some intellectual freedom. But it depended on the times, the individuals, and what was being talked about. What Peter Abelard got away with for a time would NOT have been excused a hundred or so years later. Let’s remember that Giordorno Bruno was burned at the stake for heresy, for instance, for simply asserting certain truths about the nature of the heavens. It was okay, then, to perhaps split hairs about theology on this or that tenent… but to go against policy outright remained dangerous WELL into the Renaissance.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Emar – middle ages refers to the time in your life after you hit 30 until 55. Early middle age would be 30-39 right before you first divorce, High would be 40 to 45 when you start smoking pot again and acting all cool to attract younger ladies, and late would be 46-55 when you start developing ‘Crusty Old Bastard’ syndrome where you start eyeballing the products in the bladder control section at Walgreens.
Glad I could clear that up.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:57 am
For #1, I’d suggest using not Elizabeth I, but her father, Henry VIII. He started the religious killings, especially monasteries, as he switched religions. And then her sister, Queen Mary, upped the ante considerably more.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:00 am
bucslim:
You totally forgot the period of conspicuous consumption when you buy many expensive toys in the futile hope of stemming the aging process. Sports cars, dick boats, etc. Or, as in my family, the spectre of my 50-something brothers and brother-in-law all buying matching Harleys. One of my brothers had a 65 Mustang, when he was about 20 or so (this was in the early 70s) which he fixed up and was his chick magnet car. Then, with the onset of marriage, he drove Oldsmobiles and the like, for years. Now all of a sudden he has a Harley. Gee. I wonder who’s feeling his age?
The manifestation of this in MOI appears to be developing into the desire to move to bigger and bigger sailboats. But this is also the onset of incipient indolence, because I’m tired of being cramped and wet every time I go out for a little jaunt on the lake.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:01 am
lol @ Number 10
I’m ready, JFrater, Top 10 Secrets of the Universe….GO!
January 8th, 2009 at 8:03 am
Emar:
See my post #48. The Middle Ages run from about AD 550 to about AD 1400 or so. The first two or three hundred years of it is what is called the Dark Ages, and was in large part a very nast time to be a western European.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Randall – I hear ya brother. I’m on the verge of returning to my roots as well. When I was in college I had a Datsun 280z which I had to tearfully trade in when the kids came to roost. Now that I’m divorced, one of my goals is to slide back into one of those or get the boner inspiring new 370 Z.
Then the hot chicks will sprint towards me!!
January 8th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Here’s the breakdown by years.
- Early Middle Ages: 500-1000 AD
- High Middle Ages: 1000-1300 AD
- Late Middle Ages: 1300-1499 AD
Now, for comparison:
- Black Death: Started around 1345
- Joan of Arc: 1412-1431
- Copernicus: 1473-1543; proposed Heliocentrism in 1514 (So, technically after the Middle Ages)
- Hundred Years’ War: 1337-1453 (conflict and famine reduced France’s population by two thirds)
January 8th, 2009 at 8:14 am
haha it’s great to see the crazies come out and try to prop up their old strawman of the Dark Ages, isn’t it? Face it–the Middle Ages were more civilized than we are. Stop believing what’s spoon-fed to you by your professors.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:15 am
What’s with all of the fake Randall posts?
January 8th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Bob:
Surrrrrre, Bob, stop believing professors…. and what then? Stop believing books? What do you do, channel your info from the spirit of some 1200 year old Viking named Magnus?
January 8th, 2009 at 8:24 am
lol.. “dick boats”
A professor I had for Shakespeare/Renaissance Drama/Elizabethan Lit (yes, those were three separate classes and because it was the same teacher, I wrote three separate papers) who would start off every first class with facts about the middle ages into the elizabethan era. We talked about the bear baiting and the brothels and how crude and uncultured and squeamy it all was, and how we were so glad we’re above all that as a society. However, I do believe there’s a good portion of today’s society that enjoys fighting and boobs. We aren’t as cultured as we think. At least we don’t throw feces in the street anymore.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:26 am
bucslim:
What’s with the fake posts? (Notice there was one for Jamie as well) Obviously doughy 15 year olds who can’t get girls and take five minutes out from their non-stop video gaming to amuse themselve by hijacking aliases on the net.
I’d like to know why something can’t be set up to reject submissions by people who try to use a moniker that’s already taken. I mean, it asks for our names AND our emails, after all… why can’t it reject a post if the two don’t match? Why not something that pops up and says, “sorry, that username is taken” and rejects the comment?
January 8th, 2009 at 8:28 am
JFRATER/CYN/MOM/DANGOR:
PLEASE note posts 63, 55, 51, and 50. I hate to harp, but if you have the time, let’s get this shit deleted, please. And please see my note to bucslim at #64. Is something like this possible?
January 8th, 2009 at 8:31 am
to #10:
As I read, Torquemada alone made more than 22.000 executions.
Not too much?
January 8th, 2009 at 8:31 am
I thought the IP was banned yesterday?
January 8th, 2009 at 8:34 am
#8 might be true in Western Europe where peasants could be owners but not in Eastern Europe.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Randall – well I sorta thought it might be you, I mean your hormones do rage from time to time and I know you like hot dogs and all, but since the post was only one sentence and you weren’t calling someone a name . . . it just isn’t the same.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Oh shit – now he’s doing it to me. Hey, how did he know I like wild buttsex?
January 8th, 2009 at 8:39 am
I recommend you the relevant movies of Pasolini, they illustrate the Middle Ages in a realistic way.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Is he fighting with himself?
Anyway, I forgot about the other “fact” we were taught- maybe someone can verify? We were told that people who WERE executed were beheaded if they were hung or…collected if they were beheaded and that the heads were put on stakes around the city to keep people in line? Anyone?
January 8th, 2009 at 9:02 am
As a historian, you touched on one of my pet peeves -
Galileo wasn’t imprisoned for claiming the Bible was wrong. It’s another common myth.
Galileo wrote and published a paper about the state of the solar system that put the sun in the center – heliocentric. This was correct, but he had no proof. He also questioned parts of the Bible – but this was in following with Church tradition, particularly St. Augustine. Galileo also had direct support of Pope Urban VIII, who had been his friend before becoming Pope.
Galileo was given a set of instructions that allowed him to write a book discussing the Copernican model of the solar system. The Pope requested that he include both viewpoints and not come down for or against either, and that he include the Pope’s views.
Galileo’s famous book, the Dialogue, presented three characters: Salviati, a follower of Galileo; Sagredo, a neutral peasant; and Simplicio, a moron who parrots the Pope’s position on everything. Simplicio’s name is that of an ancient philosopher, but it rather sounds like simpleton, doesn’t it? Coupled with the character’s behavior, Galileo effectively called the Pope an idiot. In print. Records of his other correspondences indicate that this was not unusual for him; Galileo was a really abrasive man – I’d almost call him a jerk – with a habit of pissing off people in power.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Milked guns on the list, g – pity about the trolls in da commentz.
Weird pizza list ASAP please.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:18 am
48. Randall
“Cleanliness in the Middle Ages? Amongst the rich and powerful, sure. Amongst the peasantry? Not so much. Amongst the FRENCH? Never. Is there a dirtier people on this Earth, at least in the developed world? Even today? I speak jokingly of course… but only partly. I’ve known my share of French citizens, and I’ve known my share of non-French Europeans who share the judgement. The Swedes think the French and the Dutch smell.”
Wow… I´m a little surprised. I dont think I would have ever taken you for someone who promotes stereotypes. There are people who reek no matter where you go. In my 6 visits to France (with stays ranging from 1 week to two months) I dont think smell has ever been a problem.
——————–
49. bucslim : You never disappoint…
——————–
67. Freca : To my understanding, that number has at least one too many 0´s at the end. Can you name your reference?
January 8th, 2009 at 9:33 am
GTT:
It was more or less a joke. I think I said that.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Kreachure, Randall:
Thank you guys for the enlightenment.
Bucslim:
You’re the best.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:42 am
There are many things to discuss regarding this list that haven’t already been contested and discussed…but since I’m at a lack for time I will mention but one issue.
The idea of the world being flat had everything to do with Moses and early Judeo/Christian teachings than it did with science. There were many ancient Greek, Egyptian, and Arabic philosophers who had come to the conclusion about the earth being spherical (from observing eclipses, for example), but because those individuals were “pagans” and not Christians they were often disregarded as heretics throughout the greater part of the Medieval period. At any rate, the Biblical description of the earth as a tabernacle to Moses was the primary reason educated people of the Middle Ages had trouble believing that the earth was anything but flat. As a result, any individual who attempted to prove that the world was not flat was often considered a blasphemer or a heretic…and yes, the punishment was not pleasant or kind, and if it could be done publicly, it was!
January 8th, 2009 at 9:51 am
GTT (80)
I recited a number told by a professor.
Hmm, how to say it in a PC way… The issue he spoke about was, hmm, how to say, sensible.
Now I checked and I saw he had exaggerated.
How to say.
January 8th, 2009 at 9:59 am
excellent list, as always!
January 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Randall: It appears cyn was clearing up this mess at the same time I was. We really need to get together.
All good now?
January 8th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Yeah it all looks good Mom, but it kind of leads to questions about my extracurricular activites that I’d kind of like to keep private. (#66) Uh, I was kidding? when I said that?
Oh alright, jeez, so I like wild buttsex. I’m a bad person!
January 8th, 2009 at 10:26 am
I don’t even know where to begin pointing out the inaccurate information and poor research in the statements disproving the myths.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:34 am
In my opinion, #4 is a little bit naive.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Freca: I wasnt trying to be overly sensitive… Sorry if my post came off that way. I was just trying to find some reference for that number because I had never heard it.
I´m kind of an amateur history fan so whenever I can get my hands on new info, I jump at the chance!
And just out of curiousity, the “sensitive issue” you were referring to was the Spanish Inquisition or something else that just happened to touch upon the subject?
January 8th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Fantastic list! Extremely interesting.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:48 am
72. Randall : Sorry, the “but only partly. I’ve known my share of French citizens, and I’ve known my share of non-French Europeans who share the judgement. The Swedes think the French and the Dutch smell.” part kind of threw me off. And my brother-in-law (and therefore my two beautiful nieces) being French, I guess I may have over-reacted. Believe me, my nieces only used to stick when you had to change their diapers. The potty-trained, updated versions of today are clean as can be!
January 8th, 2009 at 10:53 am
I personally agree with those calling this period “THE DARK AGES”. To simplify the issue it would be best not to number and list things like they were distinct items – all of this is vague beyond belief. Try thinking of this vaguely defined period as simply an extended period of social stagnation – brought about by the only two powerful things in existence – hierarchy and organized superstition (religion).
Society was going nowhere – everything belonged to the elite. Everyone else had squat. No decent food supply or shelter or hygienics or health or hope and on and on.
The vast majority of people were hungry, thread bare, penniless, filthy, and unhealthy.
Why – Kingdom and The Glory of God..
January 8th, 2009 at 10:58 am
77. Mom424 -
*sigh* yeah, check your email.
general suggestion-
instead of multiple commenting about identity theft, send J or an admin an email. like post one refutation comment. then leave it to admins to clean it up.
the trash will be taken out eventually.
and remember…don’t feed the trollz. just refute the comment to re establish your true identity, send an email to an admin and be done w/ it. and no provoking the troll from the peanut gallery either.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Well, this was humorous for the sheer amount of unsourced, incorrect information. Among the many errors, Copernicus didn’t publish his model of the universe (which was actually invented by Aristarchus of Samos in the third century BC) until the Middle Ages were over. The bit about the Bible was funny, too. How many peasants understood Latin? Few to none. They would not have understood what was being read out. This was partly the idea behind all the great church art. The Gospel was not allowed to be read aloud anyway. They rang a bell when the priest got to the “good part.” Even many priests didn’t understand Latin very well but could obviously fake it.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Tex:
Except that that’s not quite accurate either, what you’re saying. Jamie (Jfrater) has a very good point when he writes that these are, in essence, “myths,” because they do not apply for all people at all times during this lengthy period. The “Dark Ages” can only strictly apply to the period, as I’ve said many times, directly after the fall of the western Roman Empire–about three hundred years. The rest of the “Middle Ages” were not at all as bad and were at times quite good. At other times, they weren’t. But this is also true of the Renaissance, which was a fine time to be at court or in academia, but wasn’t much of an improvement if you were a peasant.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Interesting list, jfray. I love history, and all of your history lists, and Randall’s addendums, make my day!
January 8th, 2009 at 11:39 am
40. Buclism, as much as I enjoy your remarks and jesting, I´d like to express my absolute and energic disagreement for your defense on that plastic crap so-called food from McDonalds.
I would rather have that slimy moose testicle stew anytime!
Regarding #7 on the list, I bet it must have been difficult to keep yourself neat and tidy when you had people throwing feces to the streets from every single window.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Whoa hold up didnt The Enlightment come after The Middle Ages OR most commenly known as the Dark Ages?
January 8th, 2009 at 11:56 am
no one answered my heads on a stake question
Joe Dick: You don’t have to speak a language to understand it. I can say about three phrases in Italian but I still get like and understand the story when I hear opera music.
January 8th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Somewhat on topic – A great book about this general era is Barbara Tuchman’s “A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Centruy.” Marvelous reading, and her first chapters give an easy-to-understand overview of “the Black Death.”
On another note, I hope you succeed in forever blocking the jerk who’s stealing Randall’s name. I haven’t been around here that long, but I hope that moron will get tired of it and go away. I’ve had my named aped several times and it’s just a pain in the butt. Whoever’s doing it, grow up and get a life, or actually join the discussion.
January 8th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
psychosurfer – I see your point, but it probably means you’re a skinny person who enjoys tofu and vinagrette and exercising. I’m a jolly fat guy (new year’s resolutions be damned) And fat guys like me are drawn to fast food like dung beetles to monkey poop . . . and glazed doughnuts, chili cheese dogs too. Yet more awesome food items our ancestors from the middle ages had to do without. What you deride as ‘plastic crap so-called food’ I call excessively delicious and ambrosia of the gods. I will continue to eat Sausage McMuffins, as a matter of fact, for every Sausage McMuffin you don’t eat, I’m going to eat three with extra plastic cheese just to cancel you out.
January 8th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I agree segue, nice list and good comments all around.
I just received the Monty Python box set for Christmas and this list put me in the mood for some Holy Grail action.
January 8th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
bucslim you and my dad would be best friends he is a heart patient with blood pressure problems and is such a baby when it comes to food. My mom had to put her foot down about 3 years ago and banned all unhealthy foods from the house but it was all useless while we got used to low sodium and low fat food my dad was secretly eating fast food at work. And his number one excuse for not eating healthy “Low salt low fat thats not the way i was raised what will i say to my Momma”
January 8th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
#74 Idreno – the sad thing is, many of those people were either totally ignorant of or badly self-misinformed about what the Bible actually says about the earth — that it’s round. Isaiah talks about “the circle of the earth,” for example. (ref: Is 40:22). Isaiah was written a couple of hundred years before Pythagoras said that the earth is round.
January 8th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Blogball – just saw the classic Python “dead parrot” skit on BBC America last week and, as usual, it left me roaring!
January 8th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Along with the paranormal lists, the murder lists, and the cult lists, the medieval history lists are fantastic additions to a great site.
Most people have a distinct image of what the Middle Ages ages were like, usually that image more resembles the classic Warhammer Fantasy RPG than anything rooted in reality. My own perception is that everyone had bad breath and was a little homely, and there was sporadic violence, capricious men (and women!) in power, and disorganization and danger everywhere, but pursuit of knowledge, sophistication and the good life was as real and possible as it is today.
Look at the period right before the Plague broke out and you will see a great deal of internationalism, trade and intellectual exchange starting to sprout up. And of course, any wonk will tell you the tumult of the 14th Century seems to have been spurred on largely by ecological factors.
Finally I submit to you that the medieval peasant generally worked about four days a week nine months a year, yielding surpluses as often as shortages in food and goods, and likely lived in a home larger, warmer, and cheaper than a large portion of Americans
January 8th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
One of my favorite things is to view gorgeous, colorful artwork depicting the Middle-Ages backlit on a modern computer monitor. Aside from the informative lists, Jamie(also the person who created the logo) needs to be commended for designing a visually stunning site. It’s like meeting a beautiful woman who is really smart. I’d like to buy Listverse a drink, if I may be so bold.
January 8th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Buclism, Lol I see you are a lost cause then.
I actually love all kinds of food, even things most people consider repulsive or exotic such as entrails, insects, reptiles, etc. and still I despise Mcdonalds.
But to each his own.
Bon Appétit
January 8th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Did no on point this out yet???
Number 3 should say “Elizabeth I” not “Elizabeth II” right?
January 8th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Callie: I couldn’t find any accounts of displaying the severed heads of executed people as a common practice in the Middle Ages (or elsewhere).
What I did find were several instances of ‘famous’ heads being placed on pikes for display, like the head of William Wallace (yes, that William Wallace) being placed on a pike on top of the London Bridge after his execution (in 1305), and the Spanish placing the head of a Turkish captain on a pike aboard their flagship during the Battle of Lepanto (1571).
January 8th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Dang, messed up the html code there. Sorry. the link was just for the “yes, that William Wallace” part
January 8th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Interesting Elizabeth I was used rather than her sister, Mary. She was nicknamed “Bloody Mary” because of her mass executions of Protestants in England. This is in part why Elizabeth was so beloved by her people: she had Mary executed.
And while bibles may not have been locked up to keep the public away from its contents, its not to say it wasn’t. Up until the late middle ages, priests had mass in Latin (and often in poorly spoken Latin). And seeing as how virtually no one actually spoke the language, they were quite unaware of what the hell was being said to them.
And I very much disagree with the idea that women were NOT oppressed. The examples of Joan of Arc and such were very rare. 99.9% of all other women had virtually no rights compared to men. And it wouldn’t be well into the late 19th century that they would just START to begin achieving some rights.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Freca (67) I love Pasolini’s movies! He is mentioned on one of our other lists
January 8th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Freca (62): Torquemada can’t have killed that many people – it is at least 4 times more than the total number of people executed after the verdict of the Inquisitions of the Middle Ages.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Wow! This list is very interesting. Keep up the great lists JFrater.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Tex (84) “Try thinking of this vaguely defined period as simply an extended period of social stagnation”
Tex, your statement is entirely untrue. What about the great architectural works happening in most cities? What about the art? What about the music – in a form that has survived to this very day! What about the philosophy? Chivalry? You are ignoring all of the amazing things to come from the Middle Ages in order to believe myths about it. The period of time in this list is what shaped the West – it is the reason we are like we are today!
January 8th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Joe Dick (86): ” The Gospel was not allowed to be read aloud anyway.”
You are wrong. The Catholic Mass in the Extraordinary Form remains today as it was when it was formally set in concrete in the 1500s – and the changes prior to that were relatively minor. The Gospel is read at every Mass every day – it is not optional – it is obligatory. The same is true of the epistle. Furthermore, in fact many people DID understand Latin – it was not until around 1300 that Old French became widespread – prior to that Latin was the language of the people (though it was changing of course – as it morphed into Old French). The fact that only relatively smart people learn Latin these days is not to suggest that it was once an elite language – it was the spoken language of a large part of Europe for centuries. That is the reason the Church used it as its official language – it was the closest thing to a universal language.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
psychosurfer (89): I think the feces in the street was (ironically) mostly from the period of the Enlightenment – not the so-called (wrongly) Dark Ages
lily_89 (90): Yes – the Enlightenment came after the middle ages.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
YogiBarrister: haha thanks – in lieu of the beautiful woman, if we ever meet you can buy ME a drink
January 8th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
104. moviemaniac226 :
Elizabeth had Mary executed?!? Where in the world did that come from? I had never heard that before and even doing a search now I could not find a single source to validate that claim. Care to elaborate?
January 8th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
moviemaniac226: Mary was called Bloody Mary because Elizabeth got to write the history. Elizabeth was by far a greater tyrant than Mary ever was.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
moviemaniac226: “Up until the late middle ages, priests had mass in Latin (and often in poorly spoken Latin). And seeing as how virtually no one actually spoke the language, they were quite unaware of what the hell was being said to them.”
You are so wrong here in everything you have said. All priests had to (and have to) have a rudimentary knowledge of Latin – and a complete knowledge of the words of the Mass. As for poorly spoken – where are you getting that from? It is such a gross generalization! And finally, the official language of the Catholic Church is STILL Latin, and Mass is still said in Latin – not just in the Vatican, but all around the world. Here is the website of just one of the many religious orders who say Mass in Latin exclusively: The Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter. Others include the Transalpine Redemptorists, the Society of Saint Pius X, and the Institute of Christ the King. If you ring your local Bishop, he will give you the address of the closest parish to you saying mass regularly in Latin.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
104. moviemaniac226 :
Just as an addendum to my previous comment, I think you might be confusing Queen Mary I of England and Mary, Queen of Scots. Queen Mary I was Elizabeth´s sister and preceded her on the throne. It was only after her natural death (after tow phantom pregnancies) that Elizabeth became queen.
Mary, Queen of Scots, on the other hand was the Catholic queen of Scotland (and Elizabeth´s relative) who fled her country after she was deposed. Elizabeth kept her under house arrest for a great many years until a plot to murder Bess was “discovered” and attributed to Mary (Mary was the rightful heir to the throne in the eyes of the Catholics because Elizabeth was deemed a bastard as she was born to Anne B. while Henry was still married to Katherine according to the Church). Elizabeth then had no choice but to execute her for treason.
Sorry if that rambled but that might be where your confusion lies.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Please do some reading into these so-called “myths” because, to my knowledge, the writer is completely incorrect on several points and appears to have received his information from reading Dungeons and Dragons manuals.
The Middle Ages were dark, full of disease, superstition, unfair treatment of anyone that was not nobility and harsh punishments for petty crimes; i.e. theft of a loaf of bread would mean getting your hand lopped off.
And public executions were a huge deal! The whole village would turn up early and spend an entire day meandering around the gallows or block, visiting impromptu market stalls, spitting on and cursing the condemned and throwing rotted produce at him/her as s/he walked by.
Millions died during the Crusades and the rebellions that sprung up as a result and with most of the able-bodied men off fighting in the war, crime was rampant all over Europe, especially in London.
For goodness sakes, I’ll give you one guess as to when most medieval torture devices were invented.
Show me your sources for this ill-informed list, please.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but the Middle Ages were also a time of great technological innovation, as read in the works of Lynn White Jr (a male), and Jean Gimpel’s `Medieval Machine’ – nothing like the term `medieval’ conjures now.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Excellent list. I always loved Medieval history so this was very informative.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Damn, all my knowledge is false. Please don’t tell me Benjamin Franklin is a fraud, please.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
loved this list. takes me back to last yr in my world history class. keep the history-related facts coming!
January 8th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Concerning the factual validity of this list, user “Ace” has put it bluntly – and I subscribe to his observations and objections.
Another note: if you would consult authoritative sources on the subject (Drobnick, Smell Culture Reader; Corbin, The Foul and the Fragrant), you would learn that the “smelly people” myth does find basis in reality. It was pretty much towards the end of the 19th century (mostly because of the Pasteurian revolution) that personal hygiene became a “social” phenomenon. Even pneumatic chemistry and rudimentary neo-Hippocratic medicine suspected water (i.e. bathing) of many things, and did not generally prescribe it. In suggesting that people in your “Middle Ages” (the flaw of the terminology used has been pertinently pointed at earlier) were accustomed to bathing is simply erroneous. Same goes for women rights, ignorance, violence etc.
All in all, this was the first list that I’ve read which is ill informed and should be corrected.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Sources please. This list is worthless otherwise.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
True they had access to the Bible, but most of them couldn’t read or even speak latin, the language it was written in back then.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Regarding the Inquisition:
First, there was more than one; the Spanish Inquisition is generally considered to be the bloodiest, though. I recall from my studies that the Inquisition’s methodology was to arrest people who claimed to be Catholic, quiz them on proper doctrine, and, if they came up short in relatively minor ways, they were effectively put through a class and released. If the same person was arrested twice for the same offense, though, that was a trip to hereticville, with all the associated unpleasantness. Also, the Inquisition was less forgiving of false converts; people who claimed to be Catholic but obviously had no idea what that actually meant.
Also, the Spanish Inquisition, at least, didn’t do much in the way of witch burning. After the first few years, an internal review set official Inquisition policy as, “There are no witches.” Accusations of witchcraft petered out when it became apparent that the person doing the accusing was the one the Inquisition would arrest.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
that was great as usual!
January 8th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
What do you mean, there are no witches?
“She turned me into a newt!”
“A NEWT?”
“Well, I got better….”
January 8th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Great work jfrater – I really enjoyed this list, thanks a lot. As some other commentors have noted the Middle Ages spanned quite a large period of time, and Europe is a pretty big place. I’m sure that there were times and places where it was downright awful to be alive, and also times and places that were quite enjoyable to live in. The same thing can be said about the world today really.
January 8th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
“we found a witch may we burn her!”
January 8th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
medieval list are always interesting. good work.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
No sources or any backings.
Title should be
My Top 10 Myths About The Myths of The Middle Ages
January 8th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Isn’t it interesting how this list of myths – unlike the others – is the one that everyone is demanding sources for. I suspect it is because some people are not comfortable with the realities of life in the Middle Ages. I wonder if it is because it goes against things that have often been used (wrongly) to “justify” protestantism and later the enlightenment.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
131. jfrater – January 8th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Hmm…nope. It’s just good form to supply references to back up your argument. If you submitted this a assignment for history paper at a university you get a fail straight away for not doing so.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Hey I know its a late post but would you mind putting down where you got the information? Because I’ve never heard that people in the Middle Ages bathed daily and I want to see where it was published
January 8th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Elrob: I am not writing a history paper for University – I am writing an entertaining list for my website. Furthermore, you are not my professor and are more than welcome to Google if you disbelieve my list
RambleRob: google bathing in the Middle Ages and you will find a large assortment of sites that debunk the “seldom bathing” myth.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Okay – for those who simply won’t believe me unless I say something they already know or approve of, I have added some further reading above for a few of the items. I am going out for dinner for a friend’s birthday now so I will have to do the rest tomorrow
January 8th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Right, because all 11 of those crusades were just a picnic for everyone…nobody got hurt in the crusades. Nope, in fact, the crusades were actually where Christians went out and handed flowers to people and hugged everybody.
I’m not buying it, by the way. There’s a reason we hear about the middle ages being violent…it’s because they were. In fact, from just shortly before 1100 to 1400 there were over 37 major violent conflicts, most of which were wars. Totally a peaceful time. Sure wish we all could just sit back and enjoy that.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
I think some people are missing the point of this list…it isn’t titled “top 10 reasons why living in the middle ages was great”. Rather, the list concerns shedding a bit of light on some of the myths and misconceptions that people have about this period in time.
Was there violence in the middle ages? Sure. But there has always been violence and (I believe) there always will be. What jfrater stated in list entry #4 was that, compared to contemporary society, the middle ages were practically bereft of serial killers and mass murder.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Mark Twain’s “A Connecticut Yankee at the Court of King Arthur” describes well how the Middle Ages could look.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Only two serial killers?
ha ha
******
And Vlad Tepes for example?
***
Here in he Listverse I read a list of the top 20 most brutal medieval ways of tortures
January 8th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
In the Middle Ages people were literally LOUSY.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
#3 about not oppressed women is absolutely untrue.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
STL Mo 96: what the Bible actually says about the earth — that it’s round. Isaiah talks about “the circle of the earth,” for example.
He might have been referring to the fact that the horizon appears circular. I’m too lazy to look it up, but I believe that some biblical writers also refer to “the corners of the earth” and “the pillars of the earth”.
jfrater 131: things that have often been used (wrongly) to “justify” protestantism and later the enlightenment.
Protestantism wasn’t “justified” by any of these “myths”. It was justified by the greed, indolence, venality, nepotism and theological mis-emphasis (among many other things) of the Church of Rome and its prelates at the time.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
This list is very British.
It is made from a British view.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
Freca – a ’serial killer’ is a person that murders a number of people in a (typically) short period of time for the means of psychological or sexual gratification. They kill people for the sheer enjoyment of it.
While Vlad the Impaler WAS responsible for a large number of deaths (and yes those deaths were quite horrific), it can be argued that those deaths were politically and/or judicially motivated i.e. punishment, albeit slight overkill in some cases.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
The list items mention Gallileo, Copernicus, Bathory, Hildegard, Boethius, Boccaccio, Dante, Petrarch and Machiavelli – all kind of not English.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
To #1
Hungarian historian István Rath-Vegh wrote several thick books compiling almost incredible examples of ignorance in the Middle Ages.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Astraya (145)
Not some persons mentioned but the general perspective of this list is British.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Every achievement author, and artist listed to debunk “myth” #1 was post-renaissance.
Furthermore, the existance of revered women in the middle ages does not disprove a general norm of sexism. Women were barred from many “male” occupations — the author admits this!
As for #2: Galileo simply claimed that the earth moved, and was tried for refusing to recant when told to do so. Granted, his book was personally insulting to the pope, which may have had something to do with his persecution. As for the unnamed, uncited “two modern historians”, they haven’t any idea what they are talking about.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Precision (144)
Vlad Tepes enjoyed killing.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:20 am
Right off the bat, I’ll admit I didn’t feel like scrolling thru 150 comments today….
Great list! I have a history degree, and I still believed several of those myths to be true! In fact, what I thought I knew about the Middle Ages (ignorant, over-pious,etc.) put me off studying that era in detail.
Someone may have mentioned this already, but has anyone heard of the Return of Martin Guerre? It’s a true story about a man who abandoned his family to join the French army, but apparently returns nine years later- except some people think he might be an imposter! Before the days of DNA testing, it was much harder to prove these things.
Anyways, the movie is very intersting to historians because it’s a microcosm of peasant life in medieval France (I cannot remember the dates, but definitely medieval period). It shows typical work, marriage,family, village and social life, not to mention the court system and criminal punishments at the time (and yes, someone gets hung). Highly recommend it to anyone who wants a snapshot of medieval peasant life.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:46 am
Wow, a list that attempts to downplay the inquisition.
What’s next, a list of reasons why Stalin and Hitler weren’t that bad.
In a time when some of the “great” history making battles only killed a few thousand, that many deaths and trials were a lot. In addition, those deaths and trials created a climate of fear where people would say anything, and accuse their neighbors and even family in an attempt to keep themselves safe.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:46 am
Great list! Keep it up Mr Frater!
January 9th, 2009 at 2:06 am
In deep Africa we can check whether myths about the Middle Ages are true or not
January 9th, 2009 at 4:53 am
“Isn’t it interesting how this list of myths – unlike the others – is the one that everyone is demanding sources for. I suspect it is because some people are not comfortable with the realities of life in the Middle Ages. I wonder if it is because it goes against things that have often been used (wrongly) to “justify” protestantism and later the enlightenment.”
131. jfrater – January 8th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
To be honest, almost all of the lists on this site are very good. Just that you are trying to prove a “Myth” wrong, with your own “correct version” (how credible the sources/informations are). All in all, myths are really just that, myths. Going that far back, I don’t think any information provided will be considered “better” than the other.
Anyways keep up the good work for sure!
January 9th, 2009 at 7:01 am
I’d spend time debunking this list, but actually have a very full plate. Still, people shouldn’t believe such tripe.
BAD LIST. GO TO YOUR ROOM AND STUDY HISTORY, AND DON’T COME OUT UNTIL YOU LEARN YOUR LESSON.
Oh, and the web is generally not a legitimate source for citation.
ESPECIALLY NOT WIKIPEDIA.
Z
January 9th, 2009 at 8:07 am
148. Nathan :
“As for #2: Galileo simply claimed that the earth moved, and was tried for refusing to recant when told to do so. Granted, his book was personally insulting to the pope, which may have had something to do with his persecution”
I think more than just a little… He implied that the pope was a moronic simpleton!
—————————–
151. suzi
The Inquisition (or at the very least, the Spanish Inquisition) has been INCREDIBLY exaggerated and blown out of proportion. As I mentioned above, read about the Black Leyend (or Leyenda Negra) regarding this subject. A lot of it was English Protestan propaganda (in the time of Elizabeth) to help create a sense of unity against a common enemy.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:27 am
144. Precision: Just to be precise, re killers.
A serial killer is a killer who kills a number of people over a span of time, usually with some unifying trait in common.
A spree killer is a killer who kills a number of people in a short period of time, catch as catch can.
The two should not be confused, as the mindset it takes to be one (a spree killer) is usually absent in the other.
Serial killers are usually quite intelligent psychopaths.
Spree killers are usually ordinary or subnormal individuals who have just gone over the edge.
Two very different animals.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:29 am
here’s another myth: the middle ages only occurred in europe.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:45 am
I find it amusing that the people complaining about jfrater not citing sources for this list are also the people who are not citing sources for their own asserstions. and “I’m too lazy right now to look them up on my own, but I know I’m right” is not a valid argument or excuse.
I think people are thinking of this list as something saying that the middle ages were wonderful time to be living. In my mind that is not what this list is about. It is simply saying that some of the ideas that are popularly accepted (from our “enlightened” 20th century mindframe” are not as true as we believed them to be.
I think the middle ages were probably a very tough time to live, but that doesn’t mean that everything we believe about it is true.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Witches do exist
January 9th, 2009 at 11:18 am
This is an extraordinarily good list because it has generated interesting ideas and discuss.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Damn JFRAT – i thought this one would hit 200 easy
January 9th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Cathedrals and other such buildings built in the Middle Ages are really amazing, it cannot be questioned.
One can’t imagine how people could design and build them without modern tools and machinery.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Guys, much of the “critique” which has been voiced here is precariously personal and pretty useless. As I’ve mentioned above, I also have serious doubts regards the validity of this list.
However: ramblings such as “go and learn real history”, or “google it yourself and see how many sites support this and that” are not only boring, but they’re really a waste of space. Also, the argument which goes along the lines “oh, you’re asking for my sources just because you disagree with these uncomfortable truths!” is ludicrous. Sources should be made clear by default in every serious inputs. They should not be present only in “controversial” lists. Mentioning where you got the information from is not only an academic pretentiousness (as has been suggested above), it is actually an act of common sense. As long as the list has the vaguest pretensions of reliability. The author of this one seems to think he’s even “debunking” certain false impressions of the general public. Such a venture should be supported by a proper bibliography. In practical terms, it would mean a lot of re-adjustments for many of the list’s points.
January 9th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
164. #121 Author again -
excuse me…but just where do you think you are? this is an entertainment website on the internet not a thesis for a college class. have you even bothered to look at this website and see the variety of lists posted? some are from JFrater. some are from outside contributors. and not one lays claim to any university or professional affiliation.
its entertainment silly! not education.
your comments take the cake for sure. i mean i almost understand brainless spammers posting comments in an effort to compensate for their meaningless lives or lack of sexual prowess but..you seem to think this site should come w/ footnotes? whoa…
get off your high horse, dude. grab a cold one. chill out and just read to be amused or for diversion.
you want an eduation…go to school or college.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
134. jfrater – January 8th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Hey I still think it would be useful if you let people know where you got your information. Just a bit of further reading for those who may be interested
165. Cyn – January 9th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Look if this was an opinion based list, then fair enough, but the author here is making claims that what he is saying is historical fact. If you are gonna do that then its just common courtesy to cite your sources.
Education shouldn’t end in the classroom.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
You might have a point Cyn, I do take things (excessively) seriously – sometimes.
But still, entertainment (which seems to be the flag you’re so casually defending) has various levels of quality; a good movie or an interesting song is entertainment; a pornflick or a soap opera are similarly labelled.
This site was featured on bbc’s ‘click’ (btw, this is how I got here), so I think it is generally perceived as slightly more than silly entertainment. The educational bundle that comes with it is much appreciated. This is why I think “listers” should presented things as empirically correct as possible. This particular list may have some of its facts wrong, that’s all. Things should be really simple.
1. Correct the mistakes and move on.
2. Move on anyway, since nobody minds a few more misinformed guys in an ocean of really misinformed guys.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
167. #121 Author again -


sorry.
i was a bit over the top. must’ve been the indigestion from all the spam this site has been getting lately.
it is way cool that LV is getting more than the usual ‘dash-n-read-n-comment-on to next site’ kinda traffic. i do appreciate a higher class of commenting.
so don’t be put off by me.
altho..to you and just generally speaking…i refuse to kowtow to expectations of being grammatically correct. proper syntax. or truly god forbid ..proper punctuation. to me..this is a comment field not a thesis or professional publication. and yes, as someone who had professional aspiratons as a writer…i do know the difference. and that falls under the heading of ‘i’m just saying’ and hopefully to counter criticism of my decidely informal and deliberately lazy comment writing.
also a major reason i’ve yet to submit a list myself…way, way too much work. 
i leave that to J and anyone w/ the stones to weather the storm of critiques.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
I can’t believe some of these comments. So rude. This was a great list, and I have heard some of them debunked before (like the seldom bathing one). Naysayers: maybe you should do some more research yourself. Don’t forget; the middle ages was a HUGE period of time. Many of these weren’t correct throughout the entirety of the middle ages, but just some of it.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
166. Elrob -
‘..Education shouldn’t end in the classroom..’
hell..it doesn’t even start there as far as i’m concerned, says the homeschooling mom. LOL
ok..i get the claims bit but still, its just a freaking list for chrissakes. chill out peoples.
the other thing too..i would not want to discourage anyone from submitting lists for publication because they thought footnotes were required. or citations. i mean if you’re gonna quote something, yeah cite your source. but these lists should be entertaining and diversions. so anyone contemplating submitting a list ..scroll up there to the navbar and check out the submissions page. and don’t be hesitant to at least try.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
The inquisition didn;t kill a large amount of people, but thousands were tortured. It was against the rules to draw blood, so they would cook the legs of their victims untill there was nothing left but bone.
January 9th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Nikki – i totally agree with you. I think JFrater and his contributors do a fine job at entertaining and at times enlightening us. I think there are some people that have nothing better to do with their lives than try and belittle others so that they feel better about themselves… It appears they never emotionally left the school yard.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Hey J ~
Great list! As always the comments are almost as good.
January 10th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
I’m sorry but this list is disappointing. A lot of it is unfounded and misleading. It seems nowadays that every popular view of history is ‘just a misconception’. While this is true in many ways, its not always the case.For example:
10 – The judicial system was far from fair. Look up ‘trial by ordeal’. This was a common method in England at the time. Someone would be locked in a cell, tortured for a while, beaten, castrated then marched through the town being pelted by commoners with stones then locked in the stocks. And this was all before they had been ‘proven’ guilty.
8 – Administrative records in England around the 13 century show evidence of several famines. Peasants relied on growing vegetables for food, and if there was a poor harvest, you were done for. A quarter of Henry V’s army died before Agincourt of dysentry due to eating dirty shellfish because they were so hungry.
6 – Several written records show the contrary.People in urban areas lived in absolute squalor. Disease and premature death were rampant. One of the reasons for the plague being so widespread was the appalling hygeine standards of the time. Knights might’ve bathed often, but knights were a small minority.
5 – Peasants and millers had to produce vast amounts of grain for the barons, for which they got to keep a meagre amount. If they grew grain for themselves the barons would smash the millstones and let them starve. Therefore, peasants were virtually slaves to the overlords. People had to work incredibly hard in order to get by, women and children included.
4 – the middle ages were an incredibly violent time. The 1400’s were the most violent century ever recorded. It’s inaccurate to compare the scale of modern acts of violence such as that of Hitler and Pol Pot as this was more to do with the technology available to them. Its a lot eaier to perform mass killings by gas than it is by sword after all. Casual violence was endemic. Historians now question whether King John was actually evil, or whether he was just a product of his time where people really were that violent. I’m sorry but it really isn’t a misconception that the middle ages were a violent time.
3 – as mentioned by others women like Joan of Arc were an exception. Women had few rights and rape and abuse was common.
1 – the common people were almost all illiterate. Many were extremely religious and extremely superstitious.
The other points are right though. The most interesting true one is that most people didnt think of the world as flat. I think the problem with this list is that it focuses on the elite such as the lords, kings, knights, intellectuals etc as if they were the norm which they weren’t.
January 10th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Middle age sounds great untl you start to think about dental problems…
Whooouuu ! A lot of misleading information. If you are a Peasants, you’re way f%$%$$%%%%k up !
BadVybz, you’re the man !
Add to point 1: remember the plague and the the cults to clean the cities and repent people from their sins.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:16 am
I read no further than this: “It was not until the Middle Ages began to draw to a close that people like Elizabeth I began to use the death penalty as a means to rid their nations of religious opponents.” before I realized this was just another christo-fascist revisionist apologia meant to clean up Christianity atrocious history of murder, slavery and self-aggrandizement.
Blaming the Protestant Elizabeth for religious murders is ludicrous on the face of it. The fact are that the Roman Catholics routinely burned heretics, witches, Jews, Muslims, atheists, apostates, non-catholic Christians, gays, political enemies, and others on a scale that, over the course of a few centuries, absolutely beggars the butchery of the Third Reich’s Final Solution. The names of the butchered are inscribed on many abbey and cathedral walls–their penitent’s hoods hung from the rafters. Thousands and millions over the centuries. You may see the evidence throughout Europe today.
Such revisionism, delivered as straight-faced lies, relies on the total ignorance of the target audience. If you believed any of this crap, you know that the writer hold you and your intelligence in very, very low esteem–a hallmark of the Medieval Church’s view of her clients and followers. The Church decreed that none but religious clerics and the Nobles should learn to read and write and since the days our hard-won rights to education began to enlighten people about the evil of the Church, they have been backpedaling, changing doctrine and dogma to fit the altered reality and wishing, wishing, wishing or the days of an ignorant, uninformed membership–an at least in America, Christians have assaulted modern education, science ,critical thinking and logic with a ferocity that must make the old viziers of the Office of the Grand Inquisition smile in their graves.
If you believed any of this crap, you are the ignorant, slothful, incurious, stupid people your church is hoping you will be. Send them some more money, their plot seems to be working.
January 12th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Popular television personality and independent filmmaker Dr. Donald B. MacGowan originally pursued a career in academics, earning two B.Sc. degrees, a dual M.Sc., and a PhD.; co-authoring over 5.2 million dollars in grants, and publishing more than 200 refereed journal articles, abstracts, etc. Seeking refuge in sanity from that unbalanced process, he quit the academic rat race and began to live. Donnie is an accomplished, prolific alpinist, having climbed on 5 of the seven continents, putting up more than 150 first ascents on rock, ice and snow, and a dozen first ski descents. He has written, directed and produced short and feature length films on health, travel, mountaineering and life in a touring rock band. Donnie records and tours relentlessly with his Celtic Punk fusion band “Fatal Loins”–although nobody much seems to care for their music. A Hawaii resident since 2000, he quietly and humbly inhabits Kailua Kona, doing environmental good works, surfing the be-jeezis out of the local waves and frenetically producing somewhat bizarre and mildly disturbing programs for local television which have recently been lauded as: “Ignorant”, “Arrogant” and “Totally Insane”. You may say what you wish about him, Donnie does not care. For somewhere underneath those swaying palm trees, in those warm aloha breezes, he is far too busy praying for good surf to hear you…
January 12th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
http://www.divinecaroline.com/public/user/profile?user_id=29140
The above info on Donald McGowan is from the above link. There is more.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
176. Dr. Donald B. MacGowan : Whoever you are, go back under that rock you crawled out of.
January 12th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
informative list. well done! cool
January 12th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Just a note, saying the period following the Middle Ages is commonly known as the Enlightenment skips the period of at least a century during the Renaissance.
Also, though many have already noted that Elizabeth and the other queens regnant you mention in #4 ruled during the Renaissance or early modern period, even they had to constantly contend with additional doubts concerning their gender (look at the Elizabeth’s Speech at Tilbury — she had to overcome those concerns with statements like: “I know I have the body but of a weak and feeble woman; but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and of a king of England too”)
January 12th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Fascinating list!
January 13th, 2009 at 6:29 am
segue:
Talk about self-congratulatory crap… that quote from the web site sounds like one of those wikipedia entries that you just KNOW were written BY the subject. Cracked.com just did a list about that, in fact.
I promise to NEVER write my own wikipedia entry, nor will I allow flunkies or hired publicists to do so–should I ever have either. (At present I have acolytes, but they are required to take a vow of silence whilst toiling for the master).
January 13th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Oh, damn, Randall, and I just said something nice about you on another list!
That’ll teach me.
January 13th, 2009 at 9:04 am
I have enjoyed this list, yet have often wondered about why no sources were provided at the end for the curious and those not wanting to check the facts. But, I continued to look forward to each day’s download and enjoy. The joy ended with this “Myths of the Middle Ages” list. Too many red flags: unsourced, too-good-to-be true and generalized statements. It left me suspect of motives to varnish a period of great superstition, poverty, disease, and control of peoples’ minds and lives, especially by one religion.
January 13th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Sorry, in prior post, should read: “…and those wanting to check the facts.”
January 13th, 2009 at 9:31 am
183. Randall: I was feeling off my feed for about a week, but obviously I’m baaa-aack!.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:03 am
seque:
Which list? (that you said something nice about me–I MUST see…
)
And welcome back.
January 13th, 2009 at 10:26 am
177. segue :
*sighs with relief*
For a moment there I thought you were PROMOTING this nutjob! I feel better now!
January 13th, 2009 at 11:32 am
189. GTT: *sighs with relief* For a moment there I thought you were PROMOTING this nutjob! I feel better now!
)
****
Does “Ignorant”, “Arrogant” and “Totally Insane” sound supportive?
Well, I guess the site is sort of supportive, in a criminally-insane sort of way. I just thought it showed how really crazed and stupid the guy is.
****
188. Randall: Which list? (that you said something nice about me–I MUST see…
****
Not telling. But I did call you intelligent and knowledgeable and warned the person not to engage you in petty scraps.
The reason I’m not telling is that it was last night and I don’t remember!
January 13th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
segue:
Actually, I think you were talking about Anon, not me. But that’s okay, he’s smart too. (over on the Should Creationism be Taught in Schools thread).
And I still say that creep’s blurb is self-congratulatory. If you read the intent and not just the words, it feels like whoever wrote it was saying, “look at what a gadfly this guy is, what a great thorn in the side of the moronic mainstream…. they hate him and call him ignorant and arrogant and totally insane–when of course the intent here is to show that he’s just the opposite cuz he’s SUCH a heroic figure of non-conformity!”
Blah. Puke. I read that whole thing and threw up in my mouth a little.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
191. Randall: segue: Actually, I think you were talking about Anon, not me.
****
No, no. I don’t get the two of you confused. Plus, I said the things about Anon (and, ok you, too, and others) today! What I said about *you* was last night, post meds.
Anyway, it’ll turn up. And everyone knows, except the very, very new people **LISTEN UP NEW PEOPLE** that I am aware that you are one of the most intelligent, most educated, most eloquent people on LV!
So there. I repeated myself so we didn’t have to go looking.
January 13th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
segue:
Well shucks, thanks… I like you too.
OF COURSE what you said about me was “post meds.”
Usually women don’t require medication to say nice things about me, but sometimes it’s an absolute requirement. My ex-wife, for instance, needs to be pretty buzzed to say nice stuff about me.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
193. Randall:…OF COURSE what you said about me was “post meds.”
****
LOL!
All I meant was, otherwise I’d know exactly where the post was, could probably cite the post # as well as the list! After I take my bedtime meds though, it’s bye-bye cognition.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
segue:
I’m not sure I ever possessed cognition, so don’t feel bad.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
segue & Randall -
get a room
January 13th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Cyn is jealous! Cyn is jealous!
January 13th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
LOL! LOL! LOL!
Cyn, if you only knew! I’ve been in such a depression lately, and the past couple of days on LV have just been so good, so fun and so funny, it’s done me a world of good.
Good friends, like Anon, Randall, astraya, bigski, etc. etc. etc. etc. really help.
So do you, you silly thing
January 13th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
191. Randall :
Exactly! That´s why I misinterpreted segue´s post about it… It´s a good thing the asshat hasnt been back!
Yeah! That was the first time I used an LV word!
(PS – I was also chuckling at the subliminal second interpretations of the above posts and Cyn´s “get a room” just pushed me into outright laughter!
)
January 13th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
segue & GTT -
jealous? no. worried. thought Randall had gone soft on us
lol..soft..never mind.
so happy to be of service in providing comic relief. there are just too many nasty things to do w/ that particular sentence…so i just wont.
ROFLMAO!
as for LV lingo…someone should start compiling our own dictionary…
retarted, asshats….what esle?
January 13th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
segue: I’m on someone’s “A-list”! Oh, my life is now complete. I’m glad I can help.
January 13th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
astraya, of course you are! So is GTT and Blogball, and I can’t remember everyone on my A list, but they all should know who they are anyway…my once stainless steel mind is now rusted and creaky.
January 13th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
I’ll tell you how bad it’s gotten. I had to e.mail my son to have him remind me how to work the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle! That’s basic quantum physics! Very basic.
It’s not as bad as forgetting Bach or Shakespeare, but it’s pretty bad.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
The Inquisition may have technically not tried and executed many people, but many thousands of Jews and other religious non-Conformists (Cathars, Hussites, Lithuanian pagans, etc.) were massacred at various times…
January 13th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Torture in late medieval Europe was routine, but represented progress over “trial by ordeal”, in which confessions were irrelevant.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:15 am
This list is a little off, as it cites events that occur during Elizabeth’s reign, which could easily be considered more of the Renaissance period, but because the time period varies for different regions, a regional list would be more accurate.
Secondly, the general treatment of women in the 1500’s was poorer than it had been before the printing press. If you are considering this period of time to be the middle ages you have to account for the scold’s bridle, the French and Swedish witch trials, and all the nonsense caused by plague superstition and the malleus mallificarum nonsense. Interestingly enough, very few, though some women did hold property and businesses in earlier times, though often their wares were considered with caution as it was thought unlucky for a woman to hold such offices.
As for Hildegard – she was a nun who suffered from migraines which brought about visions. She was looked to because she was a vessel for god, her talents would not have been accepted were she not a nun.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Cyn/Segue/GTT:
Randall NEVER goes… soft.
I haven’t reached the stage of life, yet, where I’ve encountered that problem.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Randall-
January 14th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Another winning list ! segue-hope your feeling better hang in there. Im glad post 104 was corrected I was about to jump on it. I don`t know a lot about a few thing`s but I know a little about a lot of thing`s but I sure don`t know what Heisenburg Uncertainty Principal is. If it was explained I probably still wouldn`t.
January 14th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
207. Randall: Cyn/Segue/GTT: Randall NEVER goes… soft.
I haven’t reached the stage of life, yet, where I’ve encountered that problem.
****
I somehow have the feeling your body would be terrified of betraying you so!
January 15th, 2009 at 7:01 am
segue and randall: there is little difference between what you two and the honorable Dr. MacGowan are doing. Him fellating himself and you two fellating each other are actually quite similar, both in cause (demand of self-gratification) and effect (supply of self-gratification) as well as stalwart examples of acrobatic agility.
That you engage in such an act, in such a public place no less, with each other certainly speaks volumes to the trust and loyalty that you two have developed as warriors on the hazardous front lines of “comments section”-dom. But, unfortunately, as romantic as the act may be, it is inevitably an example of more quantity expressing the same quality and, thus, ultimately less efficient — therefore less effective in the grander scheme of themes — than His Majesty Dr. MacGowan’s act. Of course, this is something you learn only upon completion of a PhD, so I cannot fault you for it, but I thought it my duty to at least inform you.
Seriously, though, the last 20 or so comments are a circle of internet-buddies patting each others’ backs. Why not just make a list of “MY BEST FRIENDS ON THE INTERNET” and then comment on that, instead? You’re breaking Rules 6 and 10 of your FAQ and, as we all know, the internet is serious business.
Last, this list is kind of crap. In fact, it is akin to an impoverished, brutish man who is both crude and ignorant and who locks his wife, who he beats, in the same closet as his Bible, which neither of them can read because they’re illiterate, which is, coincidentally, the same closet that contains the bodies of all the poor villagers that he killed so that he could toil their fields so that he would have enough food to feed his 16 kids. Oh well, at least he’s going to publically hang for hunting one of the local Baron’s deer.
It wreaks of “I just realized that not everything I heard/learned/read in a children’s book when I was young is actually true, so the inverse must be true. Let’s lump 1000 years of history into some amorphous anachronistic abortion henceforth dubbed the middle ages and claim the opposite of what we once thought and not cite it or fix it when people in the comments section obviously know better because, well, entertainment.”
Yours truly,
penis –err, tongue-in-cheek
January 15th, 2009 at 7:09 am
*grander scheme of _things_. Also, other assorted GRAMMER miSTEAKS abound but that’s okay since we all know my post was about the internet being serious business, right?
January 15th, 2009 at 7:18 am
Wow dude, no way that is like WAY cool!
RT
January 15th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Myth busting lists have become really popular on the internet, so it was only a matter of time before effeminate political correct cocksuckers started doing their lists of “MYTHS”.
I have a couple of suggestions for other liberal lists of myths:
1) Chickens are animals (in reality they are birds)
2) The sky is blue (in reality it is DARK at night)
3) Global Warming Propaganda is a socialist scheme to transfer wealth. (in reality it is true and we are all gonna die)
4) Asians have shorter penises than Africans.
5) Islam is the religion of war. (in reality it is the religion of peace)
6) Women don’t like sex as much as men do.
7) Socialist effeminate boys should be sterilized.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:51 am
You know, for going through and correcting “history”, it is sad you got one thing wrong…
Galileo was imprisoned for breaking his agreement with the Church, not for disagreeing with the bible. Due to Copernicus and other Catholic scholars, the Church had already realized that the Earth was not the centre. However, they realized that it would shake the faith of the people if the Church was proved wrong suddenly and were looking into a way to slowly introduce the ideas to the populace.
Galileo had an agreement with the Church to hold off on publishing his results until the Church was ready. He signed the contract. And then he broke it. That is why he was imprisoned.
January 15th, 2009 at 7:55 am
I’m going to take issue with the point about the Middle Ages not being as bloody …
The Middle Ages wasn’t just confined to Europe. Three specific medieval era wars/rebellions were every bit as bloody as WWII or Mao’s purges. The An Shi rebellion killed nearly 30 million people. The mongol invasions, of which there were many waves from Genghis Khan to Tamarlane, killed as many as 60 million people, too. The late medieval fall of the Ming dynasty saw another 25-30 million people die.
January 15th, 2009 at 8:48 am
a-no-name-mouse:
awwwwww…. I think someone’s sitting all by themselves in the corner and wants attention…
January 15th, 2009 at 9:38 am
@Randall
That was weak, bro. If you’re not going to play along, don’t play at all =(
January 15th, 2009 at 9:46 am
mouse – wanna be cyber pals and pat each other’s behinds? I haven’t had my hiney patted since the Jr. High Locker room.
January 15th, 2009 at 9:51 am
211. a-no-name-mouse: Two points asshat:
1 – You have no command of the English language
2 – I haven’t the sexual equipment to be fellated by Randall, even if I had the desire.
January 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
209. bigski:…I know a little about a lot of thing`s but I sure don`t know what Heisenburg Uncertainty Principal is. If it was explained I probably still wouldn`t.
****
Don’t worry, no one really needs to know what it is.
lol!
January 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
a-no-name-mouse – haha nice one fella. Was expecting a bit more of a comeback from Randell though
January 15th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
142. astraya:
“the corners of the earth” and “the pillars of the earth” are some of the more blatant elements of poetic hyperbole/metaphor found in the Bible, intended in context to generate nice word pictures for people to get the gist of what was being said. I don’t think Jesus expected a camel could really get through a needle’s eye either. He was just making a point.
There is another verse in the Bible (though I can’t recall at the moment which, and like you I don’t feel like looking it up right now
that refers to the earth being round. So the point being made by STL Mo (96) and addendums by others here is pretty well and valid: the issue with Galileo wasn’t really about contradicting the Bible so much as it was about pissing of the Pope of the time.
But it’s still interesting trivia that the bible comments on that and yet few people seem to have noticed it (even from waaaay back in the Middle Ages). …And I think I can take a guess as to why STL Mo caught that one.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Oh wow I had no idea what I said would’ve started a whole comment war. But seriously, only a few of your posts are supported. And they’re from wikipedia.
The only thing I take back is my comment about Mary. I had confused Queen Mary I with Mary, Queen of Scots.
Everything else I don’t refute.
What I find interesting is that you claim out of thousands of cases, there were only 826 executions. And you “back this up” with a Wikipedia article. Here’s a quote from that article:
“These 44,674 cases include 826 executions in persona and 778 in effigie. This material, however, IS FAR FROM BEING COMPLETE- for example, the tribunal of Cuenca is entirely omitted, because no relaciones de causas from this tribunal has been found, and significant gaps concern some other tribunals (e.g. Valladolid). Many more cases not reported to Suprema are known from the other sources (e.g. no relaciones de causas from Cuenca has been found, but its original records has been preserved), but were not included in Contreras-Hennigsen’s statistics for the methodological reasons.[53] William Monter estimates 1000 executions between 1530-1630 and 250 between 1630-1730″
Another quote:
“García Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000. Applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560-1700—about 2%—the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and García Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed.”
FAR FROM 826 deaths.
I’m a senior in high school who taken AP European History, AP US History, and am currently taking AP World History. Got a 4 out of 5 on both exams, a grade difficult to acheive and has made me exempt from taking those classes in college. Hate to brag, but people want to know where my sources are and there it is. Yes, I’m in high school, but I’m receiving this information out of college-level textbooks and was tested on it by College Board.
You, on the other hand, are taking these claims out of Wikipedia articles. There’s not one I haven’t read that is contradicted by information I’ve received. Hell, even the thatched roof point was mentioned during the Black Plague era in which the easy accesibility of rats in roofs made the disease more widespread.
January 15th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
224. moviemaniac226:
Care to aim your post at someone in particular or just a random rant? I ask because I think I was the one who set you straight on the Mary thing so I´m considering whether or not to respond now…
January 15th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Was # 211 just kidding or is he/she/it serious ? Not too funny. Pretty preverted sounding.
January 15th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
GTT:
Of the whole Mary thing, yes, thank you for that.
But my post was obviously it was aimed toward JFrater (and whoever else compiled this list), whose comments to me contained a link to a Wikipedia article supposedly supporting the fact that a “mere” 826 executions had been carried out during the Inquisition. He failed to mention that he chose this selectively and if one reads on, the article says this number, derived from a Spanish archive, is FAR from complete, going on to say that the real number could be up to 5,000 deaths.
January 15th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
The Enlightenment is NOT the same as the Middle Ages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
I would almost call it the opposite.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:54 am
This terrific list really awakened my interests along with the companion lists. Thanks to Penguinaball for the intriguing Fordham link. No wonder I can’t get any sleep, so much to learn and enjoy!
January 16th, 2009 at 4:22 am
By the way, part of the fun of this site is questionng a fact then doing my own research to prove or dis-prove the point. If the author givs a link that’s just a starting place. Really good responses here provide even more perspective. Ultimately, regardless of the peasant’s breakfast, proximity to a bath, rodents in the thatch, or curiosity about the earth’s circumfrance, or invitation to be boiled — whadya know, the species survived so well that here I am wondering which golden arches to choose for a biscuit a tete with bucslim. I love listverse.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:42 am
BT
I didn’t even see that. Just adds to the number of horrendous errors this list contains. And yes, the Enlightenment is a completely different era, a HUGE contrast from the Middle Ages and different in nearly every way. For future reference, sequence of events goes Middle Ages > Renaissance > Enlightenment.
January 17th, 2009 at 10:17 am
i love how this list demonstrates how easy is is to rewrite history and really brings to life the phrase “i read it on the internet so it must be true”
go camping
go just 5 days with out a bath, wear the same cloths for a month no socks and abstain from all use of toilet paper tooth brush or paste deodorant perfume you can have a small satchel of lavender say
and then ask a family member/a loved one how you smell
have fun and put your social life on hold for a little while
January 17th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Oh, golly gee, it all seems to charming and lovely, it hardly seems likely the Enlightenment was necessary at all, what with all that bothersome talk about freedom and democracy and self-determination. It all sounds so good, maybe we should just roll back the clock and try the Dark Ages all over again. Oh, wait, I forget, that’s pretty much the process that we already began in the 20th century with the new road to serfdom. Gosh, I can hardly wait now that I have learned what a jolly wonderful place the past is going to be to live in.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Only “826 recorded executions over a 160 year period” of people who’s religious beliefs conflicted with Catholic dogma. Only 826, how could I be so ignorant of the Catholic Church’s benevolence in the middle-ages.
January 19th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Wow. I only have a history minor, and even I have read enough and heard enough lectures to recognize that the bulk of this list is utter bull. 2 thumbs down.
January 20th, 2009 at 12:40 am
What garbage this list is. The death penalty was meted out to serfs who stole minor things. Executions of common criminals were crowded, and religious zealotry meant all kinds of torture and burning at the stake. The middle ages were indeed filthy by our standards, epidemics like the plague prove this. The life of a middle class artisan could be OK compared to that of serfs, who routinely died by their thirties from overwork, but even the artisans and guild members routinely worked from dawn to dusk, six days a week. The vast majority of laborers were illiterate and seldom ventured more than a few miles from where they were born, were full of superstitions and could be said to be both crude and ignorant.
January 20th, 2009 at 1:11 am
Very interesting, but having zero references makes this list debunking commonly held beliefs about the middle ages nothing more than mild amusement. Prove your statements, otherwise they’re nothing more than claims, or new myths. Smacks of revisionism.
January 20th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
No no no. Animals were kept in some houses in some places, my farther remembers some families that practiced this in his childhood or at least had a animal shed built on to the side of the house as the animals kept the house warmer. Two countries that practiced this I know of are Austria and Ireland.
Now we all know in times of famine it wasn’t the rich that suffered. I know its modern history but during the Irish famine under English rule grain was exported from Ireland while one million died and one million emigrated.
Violence was all over the middle ages, witch hunts, wars etc. To compare it to modern figures the world was much less populated then and as far as evil goes… Vlad the impaler was much more evil than Hitler or Stalin.
And people were ignorant then as they are now. The lower class had little to no education and weren’t even expected to read or write. Education was a reserve for the wealthy.
In ways the “true word” was kept from the people as all Catholic mass was preformed in Latin a language that only the educated knew and their total knowledge of the church was just the information that your local priest was willing to tell you, mostly what you were going to hell for.
They did know the world was round though, if you look at the horizon at sea you can make out a slight curve.
January 20th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Myth: People didn’t bathe in the Middle Ages, therefore they smelled bad
While your treatment of this myth is good – you also cited incorrectly.
Incense was (and is) an integral part of the Christian ethos and practice as it is of Judaic – from which we inherited it – and Muslim practice. It had nothing to do with body odour.
Again, it was true that most marriages – in Britain in particular – took place in high summer this was only partially due to the Lenten Period; it was also done to take advantage of the (likely-to-be) warmer and DRIER weather at that time of the year. There was also superstition in some parts that a winter wedding was a poor omen for success.
” In the Middle Ages, most towns had bathhouses”
TRUE – Bath houses, made popular by the Romans remained popular among the wealthy during the Middle Ages: However, most Britons (indeed a large part of Europe) adhered to their priests teachings and most priests were wont to call upon the Rule of St.Benedict – written around AD540 – which “which permitted baths for the ill, but enjoined the healthy to do so rarely”, Moreover, after the rise of the Inquisition which accompanied the Christian rulers storming and re-taking al Andalusa (Spain, Portugal & parts of southern France below the Languedoc/Provence)from the Moors, bathing was seen as a Muslim / Jewish practice and regular ‘bathers’ were reported for indulging – being seen as an heretical practice; and the aversion spread across Europe with the Inquisition.
Finally, bath-houses themselves were banned – or at least persecuted – from early in the 1500’s as they were seen as hotbeds of “salacious and sordid practices and prostitution” – indeed many bath-houses were adjoined or were owned by brothels! In fact bath-houses were closed by official order in an attempt to stop the spread of syphilis which was seen to be spread via bath-house patronage. The final factor which virtually terminated the patronage of bath-houses (and subsequently, full-immersion bathing) was the medical theory that washing opened the pores allowing things to enter that would upset the balance of the four humors that governed health.
Thus it was actually true that a BATH – that is, sitting in a tub full of water and cleansing oneself thoroughly – was, in fact a privilege of the welthy or well-to-do. The average person could not afford the time to prepare a full bath: this involved carting water from the nearest source – a well, spring, stream, river nearby and heating it in a cauldron; such labour could cost a “wife” many hours as the nearest water source might well be at the opposite end of a village!
However, this did NOT define the peasantry, ordinary folk as “dirty” or smelly”. The COMMON practice was to indulge in a ‘bird-bath’. That is, to heat a bucket of water, retire behind a screen (or outdoors) and rinse with a cloth, sponge down with a rough lye soap and finish with a final rinse – this practice was a daily ablution performed by the majority of folk
To quote the French proverb is also unjust – as the French were reputed to be the smelliest people on the entire continent.
January 20th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Hugh #238 – Scots also constructed byres close against the house for the warmth the animals would provide – and animals were also kept inside for the same reason in winter.
January 21st, 2009 at 1:08 pm
New to this site. The Middle Ages were a time of violence.
There were various wars, and the Church had a campagein against the Cathars and any other herectical group out there at the time.
You could be hanged, and then while still living, be brought down from the scaffold, have you intestines pulled out and such, and be cut into pieces,hence you see this in history books about people being,hang,drawn and quartered.
You could be broken on the wheel, or be tied to horses, one for each limb.Then they would signal to the horses to go, and you would be torn apart.
Many of the clergy were no angels,having mistresses and such,since celebacy wasn’t really strictly enforced.Some priests even had wives, which dated from the days of the apostles.
Some time in the 12th or 13th century is when I think they really made it manditory.This may have been in reacton to the appeal that the Cathar clergy, the perfects had, since they wore simple clothes, had no wives or mistresses, observed poverty, and in general behaved better than the regular clergy.
How well educated the local clergy were at the time I’m not sure.Certainly most monks were, and some even ran schools.
The local parish priest may have even conducted services in the local language, but during the consecration of the Holy Eucharist, may have said latin.
In many villages the priest might have been the most educated person in town.
Did people know how to read and write? yes.
Those who were craftsman and merchants had to know how to read,write and do mathmatics. A baker would have to know how much flour to buy to make his bread.A builder or stonemason
what need to know square footage,etc.when building homes or cathederals.
Were many serfs and peasents uneducated yes.
But those who worked as a steward or in some other position for the local nobleman or woman had to have some education.
Yes, there was a crusade to Eastern Europe. It was to convert the Baltic tribes to Christianity.
Some cousins of my grandmother, The von Lilienschilds, according to records in Germany, fought in the crusades , and go back in the records of the City of Riga,Latvia, to the 13th century. They belonged to an order of knights.My dad didn’t think it was the Knights Teutonic, but another group.It quite possibly was the Livonian Knights of the Sword, who later were absorbed into the Teutonic Knights.
On my grandfather’s side, I have cousins who are hereditary foresters in Baden.The family has been landholders and court officals to various rulers since the middle ages.One relative in Garmisch in the 1690s was a steward to the King of Bavaria.
Many records have been lost to us because of the various wars and natural diasters that took place over the centuries in Europe, but others still survive.Maybe those will give us clues to the average man and woman in the Middle Ages, but
they were a lousy time if one was poor.
And universities had more than ten students. I believe in Paris in the middle Ages there was a Students Revolt.
And yes, parents then worried about the cost, and if junior was spending his days drinking,fighting,and chasing women
instead of studying, much like many still do today.
January 30th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I belong to the SCA (look it up) and take offence at some of the statements given here. First off, the middle ages are considered from aproximatly the 8th century to shortly after the death of Queen Elizabeth I. As for nasty food, our cooks spend many years researching and redacting the period recipes, and our Feast0crats and thier crews usually spend all day of an event cooking for the evening feast, useing period ingredients or as close as humanly possible. And having been to many feasts, they are comperible to most peoples modern holiday meals.
February 8th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Terrible list. And the only books provided were from the comments. The books were from a christian revisionist apologist!
Oh well, I guess a lot of people are going to read it and think its true because they read it on the internet. Truly a sad indictment of the rot that people are willing to accept to justify their personal beliefs.
Oh well, I am going to now go and write a list on “15 reasons why the nazis weren’t all that bad”.
February 12th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
OMG!@!!!!
February 26th, 2009 at 11:53 am
puts into perspective our delinquent times….
March 20th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
who really cares this is so nerdy
May 7th, 2009 at 12:01 am
very vague. U forgot to mention that education, universities were only available to church and the nobles. The poor remained illitate and were not educated.
There were no prisons in mid ages and until the trial by jury came about penalties were harsh. May be if you stated what period of the mid ages you are referring to, your list would be more believable, because at one time women were oppressed and peasants spent most of the time cultivating lands, theirs and the lords and the churches -(High Middle Ages).
June 22nd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Wow. So much of this is just completely wrong. Just, wrong. You shouldn’t be putting crap like this where people can see it.
June 22nd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Seriously, this article is so flawed that I’m not coming this site any more. This is pathetic.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
The BIGGEST myth IMHO (not published above) is that Bubonic Plague caused the Black Death. While there was certainly some Yersinia Pestis (plague) infection then as now no way in heck could it have spread over Europe Asia and the Crescent in five years! A plague pandemic hit around 1900 and killed maybe a million people. When it would hit a city like Sydney or Shanghai it would stay in the sailor’s quarters and not take out the whole city let alone country or World. What’s more repeated attacks in the middle ages would kill one twentieth of the number the original did. That’s a Virus not a bacteria, folks
August 17th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
wikipedia is not a scholarly resource. If you’d read some primary source material from the time period you’ll find some of your facts are wrong.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
JACKASS – YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT>.
SO STUPID
August 28th, 2009 at 7:23 am
So people would get together naked to bathe in the bathhouses as in the picture?
Wow I thought I would be aware of some of these but I really wasn’t. Excellent stuff.
September 11th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
My overall impression on reading this lists is that the author has gone about as far towards the opposite viewpoint as the original myths deviate. For example, women weren’t oppressed, but neither were they treated anything like ‘equal in dignity’.
A little less enthusiasm in dismissing the myths -which in most cases have a much more substantial grounding in fact that is allowed above- would have been beneficial.
September 11th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
@Worldbeing (253): The problem is that the myths are so well grounded and are usually extreme opposites of the truth, that the truth sounds extreme. The fact is, the list is completely accurate.
September 23rd, 2009 at 4:53 pm
wow, this one is fascinating
October 17th, 2009 at 7:56 am
“Furthermore, people did not believe the Earth was the center of the universe – the famous monk Copernicus dealt a death blow to that idea (without being punished) well before Galileo was tried for heresy for claiming that it proved the Bible was wrong.”
This is totally false. I studied the history of science at a graduate level, and at the time Galileo began writing (50 years after the death of Copernicus) my teacher estimated that there were 5 or 6 Copernicans in the whole world. It was not until the mid-seventeenth century that heliocentrism won over most scientists.
October 17th, 2009 at 8:00 am
“The fact is, the list is completely accurate.”
Well, no, jfrater, as I’ve just pointed out, the second half of #2 is almost entirely false. (The fact that Middle Agers didn’t think the earth is flat is true.) Even placing Copernicus in “the Middle Ages” is kind of a lie in itself — almost everyone considers the Renaissance to have been underway for 150 years or so by the time of Copernicus. (And placing Elizabeth I in the Middle Ages is, of course, even more ridiculous.)
October 17th, 2009 at 8:16 am
“There’s little doubt that had Copernicus published sooner, with no such caution, that he would have suffered the same choice Galileo later was offered”
No, this is likely not true. The Church showed very little interest in Copernicanism until the Counter-Reformation was in full swing.
“Let’s remember that Giordorno Bruno was burned at the stake for heresy, for instance, for simply asserting certain truths about the nature of the heavens.”
And this one is completely false. Almost all of the charges against him concerned completely religious topics (such as the nature of the trinity).
October 17th, 2009 at 8:22 am
“In fact, from just shortly before 1100 to 1400 there were over 37 major violent conflicts, most of which were wars.”
SMD, the US has invaded or bombed more countries than that, all by itself, in the last 70 years.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:18 pm
It is a list, but where are your sources? For the most part, while there were some involved in philosophy/theology/mathematics &c, the vast majority of people were illiterate.
November 5th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
This is for Americans isn’t it? I’ve never heard of the myths: ‘Locked Bibles’ & ‘Thatched Roofs with animals living in them’. Anyway, history is often about prejudice. In 500 years time people will say about North Americans that they believed they were visited by alien beings in flying saucers and had a dread of the number 13. Crazy superstitious times.
Re women if yo get the chance there’s a nice documentary called ‘Christina: A Medieval Life’, which might clear up some lingering misconceptions about women in this period. They often enjoyed quite a bit of autonomy.
November 6th, 2009 at 3:31 am
Some people are clean some other people are naturaly dirthy.Northern europeans always washed themselves.
Alow me to quote Tacitus, a Roman and a keen observer, in “Germania” (so this is not even the Middle Ages but much earlier, during roman times, about the first century (describing the mores of Germanic tribes): in the morning after they got up (and usualy they tend to spin out sleep in the morning)they wash, usualy with warm water, as winter spreads itself over most of the year…
They also combed their long hair (often in a knot).
Combes out of bone were an export-product from there and most men and women wore them in their belt- pockets.
But of course Hollywood films always depict the “Barbarians” in the same way, as savages, with long ruffled hair, clad in skins.
November 8th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Quite honestly, a lot of this list is a load of bull. At the moment, I’m taking a college class on world history, and you just caught me on the subject of the Middle Ages.
The Death Penalty:
Law at the time was very harsh, and one cannot simply sum up the whole of middle age trials in a short paragraph. The fact being, the judicial system at the time was mostly local, being comprized of nobles and members of the clergy. These men could have easilly bent a trial into a certian favor (as in the case of Joan of Arc), depending on the said person on trial, making it far from fair. Men could have been hung for a small thing such as theivery or for worse crimes like murder.
Starvation:
Peasants relied completley on their lands; one bad hervest could wipe out a village, with no means of releif. When people did have plentiful fields, then maybe things would be as this list says, but starvation was a harsh reality, and wasn’t all that uncommon. Hunting was only a meager source of sustinance.
Smelly People:
I beieive that the author of this isn’t putting into account that there was a very VERY small percentage of nobility in the middle ages. Most people were farmers, peasants and specialized workers, and did not have the privliges of hot bathes. Although I agree that bathing once a year is completley bogus, counter arguments…well…suck. For one, people did not normally take hot baths. Heating up water would have been an expensive buisness, because a peasant would have needed a lot of fire wood to get a tub of water warm. It’s much more plausible that a noble or high ranking man of the clergy could have had a hot bath. Peasants would have more than likley bathed in a river, or a lake. And on the basis that people smelled…well of course they did. The majority of people worked out in fields all day and toiled around smelly animals, and quite honestly it was a really dirty enviornment (The Black plague originated from rats and fleas…and nearly a third of the population of Western Europe died from it…what does this tell you?). But people were just used to the smell, they were around it every day, so they would never have really noticed it.
Peasant Life:
This one really didnt make much sense. Is the myth implying that people work 24/7, 360 days a year? They normally always has Sundays off, because it was a day of rest, and they occasional festivals, but other than that, 95% of their life was work. Don’t forget that these people had to work to survive.
Violence:
The Inquistion? Oh, please. What about the Crucades, the 100 Years War, the Invasions? There were no police, and only a few criminal records still remaining from that time, so we cannot really see the whole span of ‘violence’ at the time. On a larger scale, the place was completley war torn.
The Women:
Seriously? Joan of Arc? You forget to mention that Joan was aided by voices from heaven. The myth, in truth, is wrong, though not in the way that the author describes. Women were not opressed, but they were barely ‘equal in dignity’. And chivarly? That is nearlty a myth in itself.
Flat Earth:
Oh please. Some people today in modern times still beleive that the sun revolves around the earth. The majority of people that were educated were the nobles and clergy. The regular people were not well educated, for their lives revolved around their work.
The Ignorance:
People at the time were extremely supersitious, and religion was a huge and monumentous part of their life. Church life centered their world. All of the examples and people listed were Late Mideval or Rennicance era. Basicall, the author is using a few people to justify something that can never really be pinned down so quickly.
All in all, this list is a load of crap. Where are the sources? The author is trying to disprove these myths by going in the complete opposite direction, whereas there are always small rings of truth around every myth and legend. I feel bad for anyone who reads this and beleives withouth thinking.
December 8th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
This information is very bias and it does not provide proper evidence for its arguments!
December 9th, 2009 at 8:24 am
I just don’t know. I wasn’t there.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:44 am
All of you people calling into question this list’s integrity: Get. A. Frickin’ CLUE!!
This information is entirely accurate. But don’t take some anonymous iNterWebZ commentator’s word for it. Regine Pernoud took on much of the malicious rubbish spouted about the so-called “Dark Ages” over thirty years ago in a little book sarcastically titled “Those Terrible Middle Ages!” There are also several fine articles available online at UNSW Professor James Franklin’s website:
http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/
However, it does appear as if Franklin is (gasp!)a Christian of some sort, so no matter how well-researched and reasoned his work is, the more “Enlightened” among us will surely dismiss it outright. After all, it challenges many of their own religious myths–such as the ten accounted for above. To paraphrase Philip Larkin,
Intellectual discourse began
In 1563.
December 19th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Also, here’s a direct link to Dr. Franklin’s takedown of some of the more pernicious myths:
http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/medmyths.html
December 19th, 2009 at 9:19 am
“All of you people calling into question this list’s integrity: Get. A. Frickin’ CLUE!! This information is entirely accurate.”
Now, I gave a very specific instance (“Copernicus dealt a death blow to geo-centrism”) and say specifically what is wrong about it. “Get. A. Frickin’ CLUE!!” is hardly an answer to my complaint, but is some thirteen-year-old child’s idea of an intellectual argument.
If you want to contend “this information is entirely accurate” then I’d advise you to Explain. Y. I’m WRONG!!
December 19th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Gene, re-read the list. Helio-centrism\geo-centrism is not refered to at all. Item 9 only mentions the sphericity of the earth–a fact that was indeed well established during the middle ages.
And your contention that Copernicus dealt a “death-blow” to geo-centrism is flat-out wrong. He was convinced on purely philosophical grounds that the ptolemic system was–though it made perfectly accurate predictions– MATHEMATICALLY too complex. At the time, empirical knowledge was actually against him. It would take several more centuries for empirical science (i.e. optics, inertia) to catch up with his brilliant “De revolutionibus orbium coelestium”.
P.S. If you’re seriously interested in learning more about this topic, check out: “Galielo’s Mistake” by Wade Rowland and, especially, E.A. Burtt’s magisterial “The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Science”.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Apologies, Gene, item 9 DOES mention helio-centrism. How did I miss that! Mea-culpa, mea-culpa. At any rate, the death-blow claim is simply mistaken–again, it would take several centuries for the empirical facts to firmly establish helio-centrism. The final one, as I recall, was Bessel’s sighting of a stellar parallax.
December 19th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Thank you for the correction, anonymous. That claim is mistaken… and it’s a shame, because I think most of the list is mostly right!
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Another member of the “Christian Right” twisting the truth to make a return to Christian Theocracy sound Heavenly.
It really wasn’t. They were the most horrific of times. Oh, and by the way you neglected to mention such heroic “Christians” and their deeds, such as Vlad the Impaler, Charlemagne, and Bloody Mary.
Christians have such fun and interesting ways of torturing and killing people, like square bullets instead of round (because they tortured the victim better), impaling upon a steak or a hook, the Iron Maiden, drawing and quartering, the pear device (look it up), the heated spiked chair, the hot poker, burning at the steak, just to name few. Let’s not forget all the fun times “Christian Right” had at the Spanish Inquisition!
Religion should never, ever be forced upon anyone. Those that make that their goal in life are detrimental to the religion of Christianity, and damning themselves in the process. Im sure Jesus would agree 100%.
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:25 pm
“The most horrific of times”? Really? Worse than living in Germany during the Thirty Years War, when 1/3 of the population died? Worse than Stalin’s Russia? Worse than Hitler’s Germany? Worse than Pol Pot’s Cambodia?
And, by the way, both Vlad and Mary lived in the period know as “The Renaissance,” not in the period known as “The Middle Ages.”
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Why is it Social Conservatives have such trouble with the English language?
Stating that the middle ages were the most horrific of times does not mean the same as stating that they were more horrific than any other time in history.
Vlad and Mary being of another period is beside the point that religious persecution continued. My point is that a Theocracy is religious persecution for everyone, including those within other sects of the governed (yes…, Government controlled) Religion. That is what the founding fathers meant for the future of the USA when they separated Church from State.
The Iranian people who were coerced into a Theocracy by their own “Social Conservative” movement bashing liberalism, and media outlets pushing a political agenda (much like FoxNews). They too were under the impression that such a Theocracy would be “a little bit of Heaven”. Few think so now.
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Please forgive, the line in my previous posting…
“That is what the founding fathers meant for the future of the USA when they separated Church from State.
Should state:
That is what the founding fathers meant to avoid in the future of the USA when they separated Church from State.
December 23rd, 2009 at 4:35 am
“Stating that the middle ages were the most horrific of times does not mean the same as stating that they were more horrific than any other time in history.”
Suuuure. “The most horrific” means “lots of times were worse,” as it turns out!
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:02 am
“most: greatest in amount, quantity, or degree”
Why is it that haters have such a hard time sticking by what they said?
January 4th, 2010 at 5:12 am
What I find most curious is the rage of some of the responses. A lot of people appear to have their very egos invested in the idea that their history was solely one of unremitting cruelty and ignorance, and they’re unable to stomach the thought that the degree to which it was has been exaggerated for political purposes.
January 8th, 2010 at 11:54 am
wheres the citing for the sources on this? It could easily all be wrong.
January 10th, 2010 at 6:58 pm
thisdid not help me at all for my school project…update your stuff please
February 4th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Actually, the myth of a past golden age is much more common (especially among traditionalists and political conservatives). Here’s a reality check: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk&feature=channel