I recently watched the documentary Zeitgeist (Part 1) as well as Bill Maher’s movie Religulous. Both made mention of claims often made that there are many stories that predate Jesus but have striking parallels. I decided to follow up on these claims and see what kind of information was out there to substantiate these assertions.
I found several websites run by Christians who obviously disputed all claims of any parallels to the life of Jesus. I also found several interesting books on the subject, such as The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors: Christianity Before Christ by Kersey Graves, and The Christ Conspiracy, and Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled by Acharya S.
As a non-christian, I am approaching this topic purely as an interested observer. I am assuming half of the people who read this will automatically say the claims are false and the other half will say they are true. The truth I found is that it is difficult to know for sure.
Here are ten of the figures often sited:
Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty–seven days and Jesus for forty. Both wandered to a fig tree at the conclusion of their fasts. Both were about the same age when they began their public ministry:
“When he [Buddha] went again to the garden he saw a monk who was calm, tranquil, self–possessed, serene, and dignified. The prince, determined to become such a monk, was led to make the great renunciation. At the time he was twenty–nine years of age… “Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age.” (Luke 3:23). Both were tempted by the “devil” at the beginning of their ministry: To Buddha, he said: “Go not forth to adopt a religious life but return to your kingdom, and in seven days you shall become emperor of the world, riding over the four continents.” To Jesus, he said: “All these [kingdoms of the world] I will give you, if you fall down and worship me” (Matthew 4:9). Buddha answered the “devil”: “Get you away from me.”
Jesus responded: “…begone, Satan!” (Matthew 4:10). Both strove to establish a kingdom of heaven on earth. According to the Somadeva (a Buddhist holy book), a Buddhist ascetic’s eye once offended him, so he plucked it out and cast it away. Jesus said: “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, and throw it away;.” (Matthew 5:29).
According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother. Christ and Krishna were called both God and the Son of God. Both were sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father was also a carpenter. A spirit or ghost was their actual father. Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura. Both Christ and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted. Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.” Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.” Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.” Both were “without sin.” Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine. Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.” Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead. Both selected disciples to spread his teachings. Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners. Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. Both were crucified and both were resurrected.
Homeric tales about Odysseus emphasize his suffering life, just as in Mark Jesus said that he, too, would suffer greatly. Odysseus is a carpenter like Jesus, and he wants to return his home just as Jesus wants to be welcomed in his native home and later to God’s home in Jerusalem. Odysseus is plagued with unfaithful and dim-witted companions who display tragic flaws. They stupidly open a magic bag of wind while Odysseus sleeps and release terrible tempests which prevent their return home. These sailors are comparable to Jesus’ disciples, who disbelieve Jesus, ask foolish questions, and show general ignorance about everything. It’s amazing that either Odysseus or Jesus ever manage to accomplish anything, given the companions they have, but this simply demonstrates the power and ability of the one true leader who has a divine mandate to lead the people out of darkness and into a brighter future.
Romulus is born of a vestal virgin, which was a priestess of the hearth god Vesta sworn to celibacy. His mother claims that the divine impregnated her, yet this is not believed by the King. Romulus and his twin brother, Remus, are tossed in the river and left for dead. (A “slaughter of the innocents” tale which parallels that of Matthew 2:13-16). Romulus is hailed as the son of god. He is “snatched away to heaven” by a whirlwind (It is assumed that the gods took him), and he makes post mortem appearances. In his work Numa Pompilius, Plutarch records that there was a darkness covering the earth before his death (Just as there was during Jesus’ death according to Mark 15:33). He also states that Romulus is to be know afterwards as ‘Quirinus’; A god which belonged to the Archiac Triad (a “triple deity” similar to the concept of the Trinity).
Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles. He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.” He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification. Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25. He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine. He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.” He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.” He was identified with the Ram or Lamb. His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.
Heracles is the Son of a god (Zeus). It is recorded that Zeus is both the father and great-great- great grandfather of Heracles, just as Jesus is essentially his own grandpa, being both “The root and offspring of David” (Revelation 22:16) as he is part of the triune God which is the father of Adam and eventually of Jesus. Both are doubly related to the Supreme God.
Diodorus writes that,”For as regards the magnitude of the deeds which he accomplished it is generally agreed that Heracles has been handed down as one who surpassed all men of whom memory from the beginning of time has brought down an account; consequently it is a difficult attainment to report each one of his deeds in a worthy manner and to present a record which shall be on a level with labours so great, the magnitude of which won for him the prize of immortality.”
Jesus is also said to have done a very large number of good works. John 21:25 says that: “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”
Hera tries to kill Heracles as an infant by sending two serpents after him, yet Heracles survives by strangling them. This parallels Herod’s slaughter of the innocents in an attempt to kill Jesus (Matthew 2:13-16).
Heracles makes a descent into Hades and returns from it with Theseus and Peirithoüs, just as Jesus descends into the “lower parts of the earth” or Hades (Ephesians 4:7-8); Though Jesus does not bring anyone up from it. Heracles’ body is not found and he is assumed to have been taken by the gods:”After this, when the companions of Iolaüs came to gather up the bones of Heracles and found not a single bone anywhere, they assumed that, in accordance with the words of the oracle, he had passed from among men into the company of the gods.”
In the middle of the 100s AD, out along the south coast of the Black Sea, Glycon was the son of the God Apollo, who: came to Earth through a miraculous birth, was the Earthly manifestation of divinity, came to earth in fulfillment of divine prophecy, gave his chief believer the power of prophecy, gave believers the power to speak in tongues, performed miracles, healed the sick, and raised the dead.
Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.” He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil. He began his ministry at age 30. Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.” He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man. He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse. He had a sacred cup or grail. He was slain. His religion had a eucharist. He was the “Word made flesh.” Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 AD and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.
Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers. He was both the Divine Son and the Father. On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. He descended into the underworld. After three days, Attis was resurrected.
Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star. Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human. Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.” Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.
Reader: Are you suggesting that Jesus or other religious icons could be Hitlers or Mussolinis that have had their brutal acts washed out over the course of a couple thousand (if that) years? If so, wow. I’d like to see where that goes…
this list is dumb.
Positively brilliant! Thanks Rushfan
You think you are a worthy adversary for Randall. That is the most lol-worthy thing I have read today.
You know your standing with the lord? Really? Has he told you?
Do you know what I think is funny? If you speak to God, you are pious and religious, if god talks to you, you’re insane
With all the religions on earth, each saying if you don’t believe in their religion you go to hell, the chances of you being right are slim. As far as I’m concerned, everyone is going to hell, if such a place exists.
Judging on your previous actions and your actions on this list (turn the other cheek was a teaching of jesus remember) you are one of the worst christians I have met.
119. smithstar15- “And as for your buddy oouchan or whatever he’s calling himself at the moment,I’m glad he’s a nonbeliever”– Hey mate its cool, calm down. First off Oouchan is a lady, i am sure cuz I know her and I know that can be rough to feel the way you do but this is a public forum. We4 all defend our beliefs. It cool to be defensive but we are all just debating. Its not judgement day yet and I know that I believe in my Lord too but we should just spread peace to make it easier to get through this life. We all know it to be hard as it is anyhow!
49. callie_ – “I’m confused by all the people saying to use wikipedia as a source….it’s not generally a source of 100% factual information because it’s written by random people who can say whatever they want. Maybe I’ll go edit the jesus entry. I hate wikipedia.”
THANK YOU CALLIE! That’s exactly what I was thinking while reading through the comments. Wiki is a community-based, open encyclopedia, meaning anyone can write or revise articles regardless of it is factual, so never take anything there as complete truth. Does no one remember what happened to the comedian Sinbad? A few years ago, someone went to his wiki entry and edited it to say he had died. It made such a mess that Sinbad had to make a press statement just to say “nope…still here….”
Great list, Rushfan. I know a lot of jerks are spending precious comment space complaining, but I personally think it’s an interesting topic and a great conversation starter.
Hey, I’m a new commenter and someone who just loves to throw out their opinion.
ABrutalKind: Thanks for that. Unfortunately, your kind of Christianity is underrepresented, but it is nice to see it sprout up every once in a while. While I personally am an atheist and no longer feel the need for a the presence of some sort of higher power, I respect the fact that other people do. The sad fact is, that in today’s world (or maybe in general; I don’t know), it is hard to be a positive atheist. Most atheists I know have a fairly negative and nihilist view on life. So, I do believe that religion CAN ultimately be a good thing. Which brings me to my next point:
Smithstar: I really just want to ask “Seriously?!”, but unfortunately I know enough people who are just as narrow-minded as you are to believe that you really do mean what you say. I’m not going to go into the “If you are a good Christian, how can you say such things?” line, because it has been done to death and most malicious Christians ignore that line anyway. The only ones who ever take notice of that argument are the ones who do not really need to. So, have your Jesus and judge away- humans all judge each other anyway; we just get touchy about it when it comes to our cosmic views. I really don’t care how narrow-minded you are, because there is nothing I can say or do to change that, and frankly, it is your loss, just as you think me not being Christian is my loss.
However, what I object to is you denying the outright FACT of the historical existence of Buddha despite all of the evidence that exists. It is one thing to believe in your religion and believe that everyone else is going to hell and what-not (since I don’t believe in hell, I don’t care), but it is another to deny a historical fact out of spite. You seem to be willfully denying the existence of Buddha just because it suits your argument. And, that is what bothers me about your comments. There isn’t even any good motivation to deny his existence: the existence of Buddha does not preclude the existence of Jesus. I just don’t understand how anyone could just flat-out willfully ignore what is objectively true because it does not fit with their particular cosmology.
smithstar15: Let’s all applaud you in being a neighsayer and predicting the end of the world. “I’ll just say this–I had rather be me than you on judgement day.” Yeah…same with me. I would love to be there to see what happens, but I don’t really care.
Oh …and to set the record straight…I’m female and not Randall. Although I am happy that you think I am. I would love to have just half of his intelligence, so you saying that, doesn’t bother me at all. On the other hand, I would still choose to be a female (sorry Randall!).
Sorry to see the comments section marred by retards, but, hey, we all know they show up again and again for the abuse. Troll = masochist?
Hercules and Heracles are pretty much the same guy, one is Greek, one is Roman. But since those dasterdly Romans stole everything from the Greeks, it boils down to being the same guy.
It’s too bad those of you of the Christian persuation can’t take this opportunity to come up with your own arguments, civily discourse, and strengthen your faith. This is a challenge, not an attack! see: Stizzy. He/she is doing pretty well on this list.
you know something very weird? i cant stand people who will single out a person and mock their beliefs rather then take on the crowd and mock the beliefs of the crowd. them people are bullies. if that makes sense. but smithstar has taken a whole bunch of people, in his head has made them into one person and is now singling them out. that would make him a bully, he thinks he is picking on just one person. i’m not sure where his head is!
@Smithstar15
I never meant to offend you. I was just letting you know how I felt about your statements as a “fellow” Christian. In no way did I mean to hurt your feelings or offend you I don’t even believe that I did. I just called you out on not following what your beliefs tell to do. I would want you to do the same for me if I espoused a teaching that I did not follow.
124. gabi319 ” “I’m confused by all the people saying to use wikipedia as a source….it’s not generally a source of 100% factual information because it’s written by random people who can say whatever they want. ”
That is an exact description of the bible!!!!! (and every other religious text)
By the way, good and interesting list. The literary/mythological examples like Odysseus are fascinating. I think it is possible to find parallels between Jesus and most (primarily) literary figures, in particular. Not all, just most. It really adds a whole new layer to the character, even if it is not what the author meant. It at least makes you look at the story in a different way for a little bit. The connection between Jesus and Odysseus is tenuous, but the parallels can be identified and studied just as an intellectual exercise.
@Cedestra
It is not that I don’t want to debate, it is just that I find the argument, sorry debate, over the existence of god to be futile and pointless only leading to hatred and anger. There will never be any proof one way or another and so I would rather just hold my faith in my heart and respect others beliefs and faith. If you want to know why I believe what I believe you can just ask. I am more then willing to share my beliefs, but only if you want to hear them. I don’t like to force them on others.
128. 6twistedbiscuits: “I’m not sure where his head is!” What a loaded question, dear.
(it seems, I am in a feisty mood today)
Interesting list… I didn’t read through every comment so I don’t know if this has been said before.
First, all these similarities across the world, at different times suggest that there is possibly some truth in them. Maybe different religions are telling the same stories different ways.
On the other hand, perhaps, all religions come from a single ancient religion and have just been changed over time as they have developed in different parts of the world.
Just on a sidenote, Christian holidays (such as Dec. 25) were often chosen to coincide with Pagan holidays so that the people would accept them and they would replace the old ways. In fact Christianity borrows a lot from Pagan themes\motifs in order to make it more palatable by the people of the times.
Well those are a few of my thoughts… Personally I believe in God, but not religion. Religion is a man-made concept conceived in order to understand God.
Oouchan – Heya. Just wanted to let you know I knew you were a lady as well as I pointed out to smithstar15 on my comment 123. Glad to back you up anytime senorita~
Okay, I take back what I said before : “I think it is possible to find parallels between Jesus and most (primarily) literary figures, in particular”.
I’m researching a paper on Macbeth at the moment and just realized that what I said is not really true of any of the protagonists in that play… can’t really make a Christ figure out of Macbeth or Lady Macbeth. Not at all. So, I’m amending what I said: It is possible to find religious parallels between religious figures and most literary figures. You never know, I might take that back too.
These christian people are the scariest… has anyone seen Jesus Camp? They freak me out. They’re not any better than Muslim fundamentalists/extremists; actually, they’re nearly the same. Seriously, they’re a cult. Actually, most religions are cults but they’ve just gotten a big enough following that people accept them as religion.
oouchan – i can guess where his head is lol. i wasnt sure at first if this guy was joking or not.
Cybogen: Thank you, sweetie!
84. Cybogen – “1. Jesus came to fulfil the Old Testament prophecies made to the people of Israel.”
Someone brought this up in another list and I have yet to get an answer. What prophecies? Please give chapter and verse so I can do some reading/research.
106. ABrutalKind – “As a Christian I am sick of what Christianity has become. I am sorry to all of those on this site who have ever been hurt or slandered by a Christian.”
Thank you for restoring some of my faith of goodness in some Christians. A friend of mine (who is a pretty embittered agnostic) had quite the argument with two rather zealot Christian friends a week or two ago regarding Christianity and it was pretty rough to watch. I’m pretty sure he lost two friends because it’s hard to come back to good terms when one girl screams something along the lines of “When you burn in hell, I will look down and say ‘I told you so!’” Thank goodness there are still kind Christians out there like you, ABrutalKind.
125. msulli22 – “Hey, I’m a new commenter and someone who just loves to throw out their opinion.”
Welcome to the crazyhouse. I’m sure you’ll fit right in.
I haven’t read all the responses on here but–
Is it not possible that the Bible is just not 100% accurate, and that Jesus may have existed, done great things and may or may have not been the son of God, and the story of his life has just been edited and corrupted over centuries of other influences–and leading him to share many similarities with other saviour figures? Chistianity, like every other religion that’s stood solid against the test of time, has evolved to suit the culture of the believers. Things get lost and picked up along the way.
Our image of the Devil is not the same as what people thought of in 800.
Science has proven today that disease is not caused by evil spirits or God hating you, it’s caused by tiny lifeforms, so pieces of the Bible (and other holy books) that try to explain why people get sick are invalid. That’s not to say “God was wrong,” or “God was lying to us,” but that maybe something has been lost in translation, or that the HUMANS who were writing the book simply could not understand the ideas at the time. They didn’t have the knowledge.
God used layman’s terms.
Atropos77 (52):
“through typical Christian arrogance”
“Also not a surprise, as Christians tend to be far more inwardly ugly and more hypocritical than the average nonbeliever”
“They just proclaim themselves Christians because they think it makes them better than everyone else.”
Yes, obvisouly… Because calling Christians arrogant, inwardly ugly and hypocritical is such a redeeming quality in you! If you want to call someone out on their behavior and comments, be my guest but insulting people who happen to be Christians in your rant is actually pretty hypocritical of YOU.
*****
smithstar15:
I´m almost sorry to post the above as I cannot defend your comments on this thread.
Rasha: I like that. “God used layman’s terms”. It is a nice way to put it.
Of course the bible is not 100% accurate, just like it is nowhere near inerrant.
People don’t realise that the bible was compiled by the romans at the first council of nicaea, and any gospels that made jesus look mortal were left out.
For god sake, the Bible claims that rabbits chew the cud, that the pattern of goats’ coats can be changed by what their parents look at while copulating, that only dead seeds can germinate and that ostriches are careless parents.
The book is a fairy tale. A popular one with a decent message, but no more factually true than Harry Potter. This is not to say it (the NT at least) doesnt provide you with a good set of rules to live your life
I think everyone is missing my point–I am in no way trying to change anyone’s belief–You can believe in Rumplestiltskin if that turns you on.Jesus Christ is not debatable to me.And I’m not going on here and list the reasons for my love of and belief in the Lord in an academic fashion.It’s much,much deeper than that as I’m sure any Christian will tell you. And those of you saying I’m not a Christian–Knock yourself out–oouhan seems to think I care whatever he or she believes and I just don’t. If anyone thinks I’m going to try to convert anyone to Christianity,stick your thumb up your butt and wait for it to happen.I imagine you’ll get highly constipated waiting for that.And I believe that’s exactly what has some on here like oouhan so upset–I’m supposed to be arguing with her about Jesus’ existence so she can come back with wise remarks like “well,where did God come from”? She doesn’t get it that I absolutely don’t care what she thinks of me or The Lord or anything else.She can worship anything she wants to or nothing if she wants to.
ABrutalKind: Thank you for your second post
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com
Yeah…
cym…do not pick on Harry Potter! I am a devoted fan.
jk
118. Simons: Heracles is the Greek name. Hercules is the Roman, I think.
122. cymraegbachgen87: I believe Sikhism teaches that you can go to Heaven throughal religions, but it is easier if you follow theirs.
GTT: My comments are my comments and I don’t need you or anyone else defending them–For some reason I just can’t seem to be able to get this point across–
140. gabi319- Cybogen – “1. Jesus came to fulfil the Old Testament prophecies made to the people of Israel.”
Someone brought this up in another list and I have yet to get an answer. What prophecies? Please give chapter and verse so I can do some reading/research.
OK gabi319- Fair question mate! I hope this helps. If you want more support for what you asked please let me know my friend. I have more to offer you. Good Day. Read below.
Old Testament Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Old Testament Micah 5:2
This passage is said to prophesize the birth of the Messiah in Bethlehem:
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
I thought Isaiah was mistranslated from Hebrew into Greek. The original Hebrew reads ‘maiden’ not ‘virgin’ I will try and hunt down a source for that but its hard to eat, research and play piano all at the same time
For all those HP fans…big secret – ITS NOT REAL
jk
oouchan (97):
“…why I can’t stand christianity or other such hocus pocus”…
Dont take this specimin as a reference point on what it means to be a Christian… We´re not all wackos!
*****
smithstar15:
Please, please, for the sake of the reputation of Christians everywhere STOP. Just stop. Thank you.
*****
Now, I´m thiking I´m probably saying this in vain, but can we please have a civilized discussion on the topic? No more preachy “God is right, Jesus is the way to God and everyone else can go to hell” and no more “Religious freaks are all blind to reality and stupid”. We all have different opinions. Get over it.
Now, can we get back to the fascinating topic of THE LIST?
cymraegbachgen87 (150):
HARRY POTTER NOT REAL? Shocking, truly shocking!
*****
smithstar15 (148):
In that case, why do you go around all the lists trying to ***** people off?
I knew of the #1.. and am I the only one thinking that Christianity is kind of a scam?
I don’t want to offend too much with these words, juste my humble opinion
Any of you who have read my comments on the 10 saints list know that I am a Christian. As a Christian, I believe that the only thing we Christians are not allowed to judge about another human being is the fact or lack of their salvation. I could expound on that, but I believe I did that on that particular list.
That being said, I can not judge if Smithstar is a Christian or not. I certainly have to say that his actions point to the idea that he isn’t (at least not in the manner I choose to be a Christian), and that he’s merely taking on this persona in order to take an extreme position to elicit response from anyone who will bite. I believe this defines the word “troll”.
Randall, I don’t agree with everything you say. From my world view and religious standpoint, you’ve got quite a lot wrong. I personally don’t think that there are multiple ways to God, and that presenting such a case is a cop-out, a way to avoid making a decision that might offend friends, collegues (sp?) or family (keep in mind, I’m not trying to attack you, I’m working toward a point
). But you know what? That’s alright by me. You are certainly as entitled to your opinions and your religious beliefs as I am mine, even if I don’t agree with them (and I know you don’t agree with mine, judging by what I’ve read), I appreciate that you’ve taken the time to put them to paper for all of us to read. When it comes to actual, provable fact, you sir, are a veritable fountain of knowledge.
Randall, I know for a fact that there two points of irrefutable fact that we can agree on:
1.) Smithstar is a dick.
2.) You are far too intelligent to take the bait.
Please note that I only used Randall as an example, because I honestly view him as a knidred spirit. This doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy any of the other “regulars” here that I have come to look forward to reading. All of you know better that to feed a troll!
Now, I know I shouldn’t have said this, as a Christian, I believe that God loved everyone in the world while we were all still his enemies, and that we are to love the sinner and hate the sin, turn the other cheek and what-not, but come on, there’s only so much troll baiting I can take. Remember, even Jesus had had enough when he got mad at the money changers in the temples, flipped over all their tables and ran them out.
smithstar15: “oouhan seems to think I care whatever he or she believes and I just don’t.” When did I say I cared? If it didn’t bother you, you wouldn’t post. Also, I never said “well,where did God come from”. Are we having the same conversation here?
However, in your posts you attack everyone who says anything negative about jesus. I only said I don’t believe and I consider him and his powers a myth. I pointed out to you how nasty you are to people. If that is a christian attitude…no wonder others are embarrassed about you.
Turn the other cheek. Do not judge. Aren’t these values of the christian faith?
GTT: Cybogen and ABrutalKind, along with you are helping me see that not all christians are like that. Just most that I have evern encountered in my life are like him. It’s just so sad.
As for the list: I would have added Odin myself. Love the vikings…they were hot!
cymraegbachgen87 I will try and hunt down a source for that but its hard to eat, research and play piano all at the same time- I know how you feel, try typing, eatting spaghetti and downing a pint o’ beer, while doing my job here at work. The boss may not know but if so, he can hold my beer while I type.
Zeitgeist is a tight film.
(119) And as for your buddy oouchan or whatever he’s calling himself at the moment
Oh lol…
I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the fist Council of Nicaea…There’s loads of info on it. About how the different sects of Christianity got together to unify the religion, put together a “comprehensive” book while throwing out hundreds of texts deemed “heretical” or unusable for their purposes. Or how Jesus was voted into divinity, or oh! how about the first Christians who didn’t believe in heaven or hell but instead of transmigration of the soul?
Or about the fact that the organization of the Christian religions was founded on the idea of population control? The first christian cults were fighting with each other for superiority and there was massive civil unrest as the slave population converted and fell away from their master’s gods. Constantine himself hated most christians and this council was his way of getting them under control.
There’s a plethora of information out there. I prefer old fashioned books, but the ‘net will have to suffice for now. Except Wikipedia, which is crap.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/legitimization.html
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html
http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Conspiracy-Greatest-Story-Ever/dp/0932813747/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239731776&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/History-First-Council-Nice-D/dp/1881316033/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239731872&sr=1-4
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Christian-History/dp/0964487349/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239731923&sr=1-9
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
cymraegbachgen87: Thanks a lot. I don’t know what to live for anymore, now that you’ve made it very clear that my letter from Hogwarts is never going to come. There goes my dream of curing cancer with a magic wand. Damn. I guess I’ll just have to study science now.
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157. Yondofan12 – April 14th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Zeitgeist is a tight film.
Why may I ask?? It’s main purpose is to refute a system of beliefs that will not be refuted, mainly because the followers refuse to let it. It’s full of uninformed answers and BS propaganda. If you want to fall for it, go ahead, but I think you’re more naive believing in that crap than in Christianity.
Oh and I figured it would be important to note that my only religion is evolution.
Is it possible that we just need to “believe” that we are here …just because and we don’t need to know the how and why we got here… but just the matter as to ‘just be alive’ and be happy for the day we have. Carpe Diem “Sieze the Day”
GTT–smithstar15:
Please, please, for the sake of the reputation of Christians everywhere STOP. Just stop. Thank you.
What an idiot–Can you read at all?–That’s the whole point–I haven’t preached to anybody-Actually I’ve went out of my way not to-I have not said once:”God is right-Jesus is the way”–I said Jesus is MY lord–Everyone else can believe whatever they want to believe–What part of that do you not understand? And I don’t care what you think of me as a specimen or as a Christian–Your or anyone else’s opinion of me and my Christianity means less than a dead goat to me.What is so hard about that to understand?
As far as judging me on my words and telling me I’m not a Christian,a passage comes to mind-”Judge not lest ye be judged”-I have judged no one–In every post I reiterate that everyone should believe whatever they want to believe.And this is what has evryone hacked off-Because I’m not belittling anyone’s beliefs.
Jesus also said.”If You Deny Me Before Men I will Deny You Before The Father”–And I fully believe that but certainly no one else has to–
So please stop GTT–You’re giving idiots everywhere a bad name–
Christianity is to man what sand is to an ostrich.
K… Let’s address Dionysus now.
“Dionysus was born of a virgin”
Only one version of the myth of Dionysus talks about a “virgin” birth by his mother, Semele. But this is really beside the point. As Zeus is divine and his love interests were often mortal (but not always) then ALL of his children by mortal mothers can be said to be “virgin” births–assuming those mothers were, at the time, actual virgins. That would, for instance, make Helen, Clytemnestra, and their brothers Castor and Poledeuces (Pollux) the products of “virgin birth” as well. (Heracles also).
“on December 25″
I cannot recall any tradition in Greek mythology or folk belief (that we know of) which states a specific birthdate of December 25 for Dionysus. This is spurious.
Remember–the date for CHRIST’S birth (as Dec. 25) is almost certainly not correct—it wasn’t arrived at until a much later date. In ancient tradition, little attention was paid to the BIRTH date of important personages–it was the date of their DEATH that mattered.
“and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.”
This is reaching. Dionysus, like Hermes, was suckled by his mother, yes, in pastoral surroundings whose description varies—but I know of no tradition which places Dionysus PRECISELY in a “manger.”
“He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles. He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.” He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification. Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25. He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.”
K… much of this is accurate, give or take some liberty.
The interesting thing about Dionysus (and Demeter–the other great pastoral deity of the Greeks–in tandem with her daughter Persephone) is that he is the latest addition to the Greek pantheon of Olympian gods, (his tradition seems to have been established sometime between the late Bronze Age and the Archaic period–roughly 1200-700 BC) but he and Demeter both hearken back to an EARLIER pastoral form of tradition—of a god dying and coming back to life, ala Horus and many other “agricultural gods” throughout mythology. The ancient Cretans, for instance, held many of these traditions, and they seem to have been prevalent in the Minoan period of the island–the Cretans later claimed that Zeus had not only been born on Crete–which was tradition–Zeus was supposed to have been secreted, after birth, in the Dictaeyean Cave, suckled by the goat Amalthea and a bee whose name escapes me now… YES, I AM just pulling his sh*t out of my head, I am NOT getting it from any source, let alone the hated Wikipedia—believe it or not I have loved this nonsense since I was a child and when you’ve passionately studied something for almost 40 years, it sticks with you… but anyway, the ancient Cretans also claimed that Zeus was BURIED on the island–and there’s a mountain in Crete (whose name also escapes me) which they held sacred–which looks a GREAT deal like a reclining figure… we must remember that at some point Zeus was taken to be the “personification” if you will of ALL the gods–in short, he becamse a sort of monotheistic figure in a pagan system–and the Cretans claimed that this was Zeus in repose. To THEM, with their VERY ancient pastoral traditions, a god who is born, dies, and rises again made total sense.
ANYWAY… Dionysus and Demeter fit very much into these very ancient pastoral traditions, even though they were “latter gods” in terms of the Olympian pantheon. And around each “mystery” religions were founded which to a GREAT extent mirror the mystery-tinged nature of early Christianity–also surrounding an essentially pastoral god who is born, dies, and rises again.
Indeed, mention is made here of Dionysus being “hung” on a tree–and interestingly, during the Bacchic celebrations (Bacchus is another name for Dionysus–incorrectly held to be Roman–actually the Greeks knew him by both names) the “effigy” of Dionysus was constructed of a wooden staff mounted by a representation of the head of the god. He was also symbolized by an artichoke stalk—which is vaguely reminiscent of a head, and of course, is also suggestive of the pastoral, agricultural connotations of the god.
If anyone’s really interested in this, I could go on at length–I’ve had to write papers on this crap, and I never tire of it–I find this stuff fascinating.
BUT… the truly interesting thing is NOT so much how these gods and goddesses and stories PREFIGURE Jesus… but rather how Jesus himself fulfills them, as a figure of reality.
Now… there are a lot of people on here who keep denying Jesus ever existed. This is patently absurd. For a literate ancient people to invent a human being out of whole cloth is quite simply ABSURD. It would not have gone done at ALL, let alone would it have been possible to found a religion around such a figure. Moreover there ARE contemporary accounts of Jesus–not during his actual life, but in such a short time AFTER he lived as to be unquestionable. Disinterested, even hostile parties AREN’T going to speak of a man like Jesus AS an actual person if he HADN’T in fact existed. It would have far more served many of their purposes to DENY his existence–yet none of them did so. MOREOVER, it is in fact NOT true that the Gospels were not written during Jesus’ lifetime. It IS true that the Gospels, as we have them today, were not constructed in their final form until a century or more after Jesus’ death–but it has been proven by intense forensic archeo-graphic study that the Gospels in their present form originated with TWO original texts which are now lost–which were written NO LATER than 40 years after Jesus’ death, if memory serves me. FURTHER examination has indicated that these almost certainly have origins in writings which were made as little as TWENTY years after he died, though the further back you go, the less certain any of this becomes.
But the key here is that these texts were NOT simply “made up” out of whole cloth a century after a “fictional” man was supposed to have lived. They have their origin in a period only a few decades–perhaps as little as two, after that man was supposed to have died—and again–no ancient people any more than any modern people were going to accept a “fictional” character as real under those circumstances. There would have been far too many people still alive who have balked and said, “wait a minute–this guy you’re talking about never existed!” But we have not ONE WORD from anyone from that period who denied his existence. His DIETY is one thing.. but his EXISTENCE is NEVER questioned, even for a moment.
FURTHERMORE, the gnostic Gospel of Thomas, only recently uncovered, has CONFIRMED EXACTLY the hypothesized nature of the early, now-lost texts of the other Gospels. Thomas has Jesus saying exactly the same things he says in the other Gospels, while there are interesting and subtle differences and omissions which suggest a changed nature of the overall “philosophy” of Jesus as a figure. Nevertheless, he IS there, and the gospel confirms the nature of the OTHER gospels.
And what I’m getting at then, is the interesting thing about Jesus—he most certainly was born, and most certainly did and said many of the things he was reported to have done and said. AND he most certainly was put to death by the Romans (recent findings have even established that Pontius Pilate was indeed the governor of Judea at this time). Now… here we have a guy who, in some ways is closer to us than the more ancient, paleolithic and Bronze Age deity figures who “prefigure” him—whose life MIRRORS these ancient figures.
*I* don’t know who or what Jesus was anymore than I know “what” the Buddha was, other than an actual man. (which he was as well). But those of you who blithely dismiss Jesus, pretending he didn’t exist, or just tossing away the stories about him… are missing a big and weird piece of the picture here.
There is a mystery to this guy that never ceases to interest me and even awe me. And it’s narrow-minded to ignore that or discard it. There is more to this existence of ours than the world we see around us, it seems. I don’t know what it is or how much of it we can actually sense–but I do know that there’s mysteries in a figure like Jesus that can’t be dismissed out of hand.
Hey,That’s good FTW–
I have a saying too,”The only ones who believe in Christ are Christians and dead atheists” Of course I’m not asking anyone else to believe that.
This list is absolute crap, why is it called the Christ Like list, to me this is the Horus like list. Where is jesus on the list he is missing. When Horus returns you bastards will all pay for your sins.
Are dead jews or dead muslims considered dead atheists? They worship the same god. Otherwise I don’t think you understand what the word atheist means.
Randall said: “There is a mystery to this guy that never ceases to interest me and even awe me. And it’s narrow-minded to ignore that or discard it. There is more to this existence of ours than the world we see around us, it seems. I don’t know what it is or how much of it we can actually sense–but I do know that there’s mysteries in a figure like Jesus that can’t be dismissed out of hand”.
Randall,this hurts to admit but I always knew down deep that you were above most in intelligence (God,I’m having chest pains-lol)And this last post of yours confirms it–You really are a noncomformist thinking man who marches to the beat of his own drummer much like another a-hole we all know they call smithstar–haha–
Oh Wow, I could go for a beer right about now.
So anyway I say they list will hit 300 comments or better before the days up.
HAHAHAHA you’re kidding me right? Zeitgeist is full of so many inaccuracies it’s hilarious. That’s what you get for watching a movie with a “Bush did 9/11″ part in it. Here are all the various pieces of information from PART 1 (the religious part – where this list is derived) DEBUNKED:
http://www.zeitgeistresponse.info/
AwesomeMan
Actually Jews and Muslims don’t have to be dead for me to consider them atheists.Political correctness be damned when it comes to Christ. Of couse that’s strictly my opinion and certainly no one else has to feel that way.
Geez–It seems I have to put a disclaimer with every post to keep GTT from being upset
MisterSir:
Thanks for what you said, and no doubt we are kindred. Just to address one thing:
“From my world view and religious standpoint, you’ve got quite a lot wrong. I personally don’t think that there are multiple ways to God, and that presenting such a case is a cop-out, a way to avoid making a decision that might offend friends, collegues (sp?) or family”
MisterSir, I don’t feel the way I feel or believe what I believe out of some desire to not offend friends or family (indeed, neither my friends nor my family would care) nor to avoid making a “decision.” I believe that making a DECISION about the mystical, profound and spiritual is ITSELF an absurdity–and this is where I believe Christianity has gone wrong ever since the faith was codified by a monolithic Church into a hierarchical, dogmatic system. YOU think today that you MUST follow a certain path laid out like a map to salvation–as do most Christians–but you fail to see that you have been LED to believe that by a system that was put in place LONG AFTER Christ died, as a bureacratic means of controlling the faithful and ensuring the power and the continuance of the Church. Now, in some ways this was necessary—we don’t know if Christianity would have survived had it not been so. But it doesn’t make it right.
Unfortunately, however, it became the WAY of things due to the power of the Church, which was self-fulfilling.
I choose not to belong to bureacratic system in order to codify my spirituality. YOU, or if not you, others–may believe that this condemns me. That if I do not accept Jesus as you or they believe I should, then I am lost. But *I* say that is yours or their READING of the nature of belief and spirituality, which comes FROM that early, bureacratizing of the faith… and that you or they are simply following a hierarchical system PLACED upon you some 1500 years ago by people long dead who wanted to build an EDIFICE out of the church for the purpose of ensuring its continuation. A laudable goal at the time. But not serving, in full measure, the spiritual needs of MODERN people. This is in part why Christianity is losing numbers and HAS been losing for over two centuries now.
Randall (164)
I just read a book about the gnostic bibles. It was really interesting- painted Jesus as just a normal dude. It kind of reminded me of the quote book my best friend and I kept in college (only ours was for drunk quotes…) Anyway, any other recommendations on gnostic lit?
minor spelling error: sited is spelt wrong in the introduction. it should have a c
Randall:*I* don’t know who or what Jesus was anymore than I know “what” the Buddha was, other than an actual man. (which he was as well). But those of you who blithely dismiss Jesus, pretending he didn’t exist, or just tossing away the stories about him… are missing a big and weird piece of the picture here.
Wonderfully worded. And if my memories of freshman year Theology101 serve me correctly, the Gospel of Mark is generally considered one of the original sources for the the gospels of Matthew and Luke, or as close to an original source as we can determine. Biblical scholars also speculate that the other gospels (Matthew and Luke) drew on an as-yet hypothetical “Document Q”, the other original (or near enough original) source that the other gospels drew on. Essentially, the theory is: the gospels of Matthew and Luke were written from the Gospel of Mark and Document Q. It is speculated that the Gospel of John, which is quite different from the other three gospels, was written as some sort of spiritual interpretation of the other gospels, since it includes much more moral dictates and interpretation of Jesus’ words than the other gospels do. That is just what I recall from theology class.
When we are born we are all atheists. You have to be indoctrinated in religious beliefs.
Some choose to rise above the indoctrination and see it for the hypocrisy that it is and do good for the sake of doing good and not out of fear of eternal damnation.