Top 10 Declassified Secrets
Published on April 29, 2008 - 283 Comments
[WARNING: this list contains images that may offend] This is a list of secret projects that have since been found to be true in light of released (either officially, or unofficially) documents. Some have long been the source of conspiracy theories while others have been accepted by the mainstream as real. In no particular order:
Sir Winston Churchill, Britain’s wartime Prime Minister, planned to execute Adolf Hitler in the electric chair if the Nazi leader fell into Allied hands.
Declassified documents reveal that Churchill was opposed to Allied plans for war crimes trials and wanted summarily to execute leading Nazi figures including Hitler who he regarded as “the mainspring of evil” and a “gangster”, and was also content to see Indian independence leader Mahatma Gandhi starve to death during a hunger strike in 1943.
They also show that he was willing, against the advice of his Cabinet colleagues, to “wipe out” defenceless German villages in retaliation for Nazi atrocities in Czechoslovakia.
Churchill’s choice of the electric chair was despite the fact that it was never used in Britain before the final abolition of the death penalty in 1965. source.
According to secret and long-hidden documents, the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up and approved plans for what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government - a fake terrorist attack on citizens.
Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.
One idea seriously considered involved the launch of John Glenn, the first American to orbit the earth. On February 20, 1962, Glenn was to lift off from Cape Canaveral, Florida, on his historic journey. The flight was to carry the banner of America’s virtues of truth, freedom, and democracy into orbit high over the planet. But Lemnitzer and his Chiefs had a different idea. They proposed to Lansdale that, should the rocket explode and kill Glenn, “the objective is to provide irrevocable proof that the fault lies with the Communists et al Cuba. PDF file showing the original documents.
US documents declassified in the 1970’s show that General Giovanni de Lorenzo, the chief of Sifar (Italian Military Intelligence), joined the US in the 1950’s in preparing a plan against a Communist takeover, but did not inform his own government. According to a document released by Mr Andreotti the CIA and Sifar sketched a plan in November 1956, codenamed Gladio, to form a force of 1000 men capable of guerilla warfare and espionage. A training base was set-up in Sardinia and 139 weapons and ammunition dumps were hidden in Northern Italy.
Gladio was controlled by NATO’s Clandestine Planning Committee; attached to Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Powers in Europe. It was appropriate that the documentaries should be made by the BBC, since Britain’s MI6 and SAS were key movers and trainers, along with the CIA, in the Gladio operation.
In 1990 the Italian secret army was exposed by Italian Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti to the Italian Senate, whereupon the press spoke of “The best kept, and most damaging, political-military secret since World War II”.
“On the morning of August 2, 1980, a massive bomb exploded in the waiting room of the central train station in Bologna, killing 81 people and injuring 200 others. General Santorito, the chief of Italy’s military intelligence agency, SISMI testified in the wake of the bombing that it had been planned by the British-Swiss-American ‘Montecarlo Comite’ based in Monaco.”
Google has unfortunatley removed the first two episodes of a three part documentary on Operation Gladio. Part three is shown above.
The My Lai Massacre was the mass murder of 347 to 504 unarmed citizens of the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam). They were almost entirely civilians, the majority of them women and children. The massacre was conducted by U.S. Army forces on March 16, 1968. Before being killed some of the victims were raped and sexually molested, beaten, tortured, or maimed. Some of the dead bodies were also mutilated.
Six months later, Tom Glen, a 21-year-old soldier of the 11th Light Infantry Brigade, wrote a letter to General Creighton Abrams, the new overall commander of U.S. forces in Vietnam, accusing the Americal Division (and other entire units of the U.S. military) of routine and pervasive brutality against Vietnamese civilians. The letter was detailed and its contents echoed complaints received from other soldiers.
Colin Powell, then a 31-year-old Army Major, was charged with investigating the letter, which did not specifically reference My Lai (Glen had limited knowledge of the events there). In his report Powell wrote: “In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent.” Powell’s handling of the assignment was later characterized by some observers as “whitewashing” the atrocities of My Lai. In May 2004, Powell, then United States Secretary of State, told CNN’s Larry King, “I mean, I was in a unit that was responsible for My Lai. I got there after My Lai happened. So, in war, these sorts of horrible things happen every now and again, but they are still to be deplored.” further info from the BBC in 1988.

Beginning in mid July 2003, according to federal court records, Bush administration officials, including Richard Armitage, Karl Rove, and Lewis Libby, discussed with various reporters the employment of a then-classified, covert, CIA officer, Valerie E. Wilson (also known as Valerie Plame).
On September 16, 2003, the CIA sent a letter to the US Department of Justice asserting that Plame’s status as a CIA undercover operative was classified information and requested a federal investigation. Attorney General John Ashcroft referred the matter to the U.S. Department of Justice Office of Special Counsel, directed by Patrick Fitzgerald, who convened a grand jury. The “CIA leak” grand jury investigation did not result in the indictment or conviction of anyone for any crime in connection with the leak itself. However, I. Lewis Libby, Chief of Staff of Vice President Dick Cheney was indicted on five counts of obstruction of justice, perjury, and false statements to the grand jury and federal investigators on October 28, 2005; Libby resigned hours after the indictment.

Convinced that German scientists could help America’s postwar efforts, President Harry Truman agreed in September 1946 to authorize “Project Paperclip,” a program to bring selected German scientists to work on America’s behalf during the “Cold War”.
The highest proflie of these scientist was Wernher Von Braun the man who masterminded the Moon shots, and a member of numerous Nazi organisations, he also held rank in the SS. His initial intelligence file described him as “a security risk”. The US operation saw von Braun and more than 700 others spirited out of Germany from under the noses of the US’s allies. Interesting side piece: do some snooping and find out what and who links Werner von Braun and L. Ron Hubbard.
The Dunblane killer Thomas Hamilton might have been stripped of his firearms licence had prosecutors heeded police reports about his worrying behaviour towards children, according to secret files.
These include claims that police were tipped off that Hamilton was armed and en route to Dunblane Primary School, that he was a Freemason and received favours from Masons in the police allowing him to avoid prosecution, and that he was part of a paedophile ring that included members of the security forces. Lord Cullen on completing the public inquiry into the murders of 16 children and their teacher, ordered the documents in the case sealed for an extraordinary 100 years. Even the major media in Scotland thought this smelled funny. What was being hidden?
The report banned under the 100-year rule was com piled by Paul Hughes, then a detective sergeant with Central Scotland police, and concerns Thomas Hamilton’s activities at a summer camp in Loch Lomond in 1991, five years before the shootings. Selected extracts published during the Cullen inquiry revealed that it recommended Hamilton should be prosecuted for his activities at the summer camp and that he should have his gun licence revoked. The report, however, was ignored.
In October 2004, former conservative party chairman Lord Tebbit added his voice to the growing outrage at this decision, and in October 2005 half of the files were opened. Press reports suggested that the papers showed Hamilton be a paranoid obsessive, much given to writing letters of complaint to all and sundry; a paedophile ring has not been found.
On June the 8th 1967, during the six day war, Israel deliberately attacked the intelligence collection ship USS Liberty, in full awareness it was a U.S. Navy ship, and did its best to sink it and leave no survivors. The attack killed 34 U.S. servicemen and wounded at least 173.
Scores of intelligence analysts and senior officials have known this for years. That virtually all of them have kept a 40-year frightened silence is testament to the widespread fear of touching this live wire. According to NSA documents - classified top secret - some senior officials in Washington wanted above all, to protect Israel from embarrassment.
this video gives a brief overview of the incident along with a few others of note. Supporting Documents.
Classified documents obtained by a group of former workers at Thule, an Arctic air and radar base built by the United States in 1951-52, suggest that one of four hydrogen bombs on a B-52 bomber that crashed there in 1968 was never found, the daily Jyllands-Posten said “Detective work by a group of former Thule workers indicates that an unexploded nuclear bomb probably still lies on the seabed off Thule”, the mass-circulation daily said.
The crash, on January 21, 1968 led to a crisis in relations between the United States and NATO ally Denmark, which is responsible for Greenland’s foreign, security and defense policy and at the time prohibited nuclear weapons on its territory, including Greenland. Denmark was never informed about the lost bomb, which has serial number 78252, the paper said.
A U.S. state department document dated August 31, 1968 said all weapons onboard the crashed aircraft had been accounted for but did not spell out whether they had been recovered. The United States assured the Danish government in spring 1968 that clean-up work after the B-52 crash had been completed and gave up searching for the lost bomb in August that year.
Home to a ballistic missile early-warning radar station, Thule sits at the midpoint of a chain of similar sites between Alaska and the British Isles — a line along which the United States may build a shield against missiles from what it calls states of concern such as North Korea, Iraq, Iran and Libya.
In October 2007 the vatican published secret documents about the trial of the Knights Templar, including a parchment - long ignored because of a vague catalog entry in 1628 - showing that Pope Clement V initially absolved the medieval order of heresy. The Vatican work reproduces the entire documentation of the papal hearings convened after King Philip IV of France arrested and tortured Templar leaders in 1307 on charges of heresy and immorality.
According to the Vatican archives website, the parchment shows that Clement initially absolved the Templar leaders of heresy, though he did find them guilty of immorality, and that he planned to reform the order. However, pressured by King Philip (who threatened schism), Clement later reversed his decision and suppressed the order in 1312. Jacques de Molay, grand master of the Templars, was burned at the stake in 1314 along with his aides.
Contributor: Tamala
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1. Himself - April 29th, 2008 at 2:21 am
Quite frankly an amazing list, truely fascinating. Very nice job.
When I read the part about Operation Northwoods, I couldn’t help but thinking that, in a few years, there might be a similar list that would include “the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government” : 9/11.
2. MojoRisin - April 29th, 2008 at 2:30 am
Wow this list is awesome. I remember we studied the My Lai massacre at school, so sad. I can tell the comments for this list will be dominated by conspiracy theories.
3. Ruairi - April 29th, 2008 at 3:04 am
good ‘un, tamala
4. dr. Hannibal Lecter - April 29th, 2008 at 3:18 am
Great list! More!
5. Tomo - April 29th, 2008 at 3:41 am
Wow. I am overawed by the power of information and also by the human tendency to forget.
If the My Lai incident could have been openly confirmed and investigated back then, we could have done something about it. And now that its disclosed, is anyone going to do anything about it? Just goes to show, out of sight, out of mind. What a short term memory we have, shame on us.
I can imagine 30 years from now, my grandkids telling me that CIA has just declassified some evidence that shows Bush and Osama were best of friends who got together to play Cops and Robbers. The robber would go hide in oil rich countries and the cop would come looking and use “whatever means necessary” to “capture” the bad guy and in the process partake of any valuable natural resources that just “happened” to be there…
Ugh!
6. Tamala - April 29th, 2008 at 3:57 am
Mojorisen thanks for your comment, its a good opportunity to remember that those officials who attempt to cover-up, deny, misinform, misderect the public and create myths on these matters, they are the REAL conspiracy theorists.
7. Bass - April 29th, 2008 at 4:03 am
Great list! I just can’t help think now, “What ELSE might be going on…”
8. YashaMaru - April 29th, 2008 at 4:29 am
incredible fascinating list:) a delight to read.
though northwood should have been lower on number, or were they random?
9. Harsha - April 29th, 2008 at 4:30 am
9/11 : Operation Northwood of the 21st Century. With Bush incharge is it too hard to believe!
10. Shoshan - April 29th, 2008 at 4:43 am
It’s astounding to think that a lot of these things have happened and the general public is still unaware of them.
It’s sad, for as much as we “study” our history and “study” our country, we only absorb the bright. The bitter tends to get left out of the equation.
Great list though.
11. Rocknopera - April 29th, 2008 at 5:10 am
Churchill is still a bad ass…
12. Kreachure - April 29th, 2008 at 5:17 am
Awesome list.
It’s really sad to think that if people were more aware of how their governments have lied and covered up great secrets in the past, they would be more aware of how they are doing the same today.
13. dangorironhide - April 29th, 2008 at 5:23 am
Great list Tamala! Really interesting to read, and very well written I think.
I can’t beleive they even contemplated blowing up John Glenn’s rocket. It would have put back space travel by decades.
14. Randall - April 29th, 2008 at 5:26 am
This is one of the best lists ever to appear on List Universe. Wonderful job, Tamala.
Readers should note: the “Thule bomb” isn’t the only atomic weapon that the US has “misplaced” over the years. Mother Jones published a list of these several years ago (reprinted in The Book of Lists).
The USS Liberty story has always been a fascinating one; most, over the years, have characterized it as the sadly all-too common “friendly fire” sort of mistake—but facts have never entirely borne this out. There were evidently many calls from the ship to onshore installations, for instance, that were acknowledged—and yet the attack continued.
15. DiscHuker - April 29th, 2008 at 5:33 am
mojo: it will just take a little time til you are proved right that this will turn into conspiracy central.
i’ll pose a question for discussion…
being that, at least it seems to me, most people react negatively to the idea of a governmental cover-up, is it ever necessary and right for the government to conceal information from the general public? is it ever necessary and right to do things that alot of people might disagree with?
16. jesse - April 29th, 2008 at 5:49 am
i just skimmed it it looks awesome, i cant wait to read it after class
17. dr. Hannibal Lecter - April 29th, 2008 at 5:51 am
@DiscHuker:
No. The government is supposed to serve the people. However, a long time ago, this got reversed and people are slaves to their own government. In this view, democracy is a failed ideology as much as people claim socialism and communism are.
But, if you talk to a well informed sociology professor, he or she will most likely defend the ideas of Marxism and communism, but with one problem - the world is not ready for it yet.
Democracy seems to be the same..
18. Prim8 - April 29th, 2008 at 5:59 am
This is a great list! One of the best here, for sure.
19. YashaMaru - April 29th, 2008 at 6:07 am
a government should keep its people from knowledge that may not be good for them to know, so concealing some truths is fine by me.
but planning to kill some of its own citizens to justify war?
socialism is underrated. the capitalistic state of the U.S. is slowly destroying itself.
20. Good Wolf - April 29th, 2008 at 6:08 am
i particularly liked 3. And people to day feel safe trusting governments, thet they are not being lied to. It seems that govts just cant not lie and cheat and backstab.
21. Mikerodz - April 29th, 2008 at 6:18 am
Iam now living her in Southeast Asia and I am so happy that I can still browse listverse. Tamala, list like you’ve presented to us, made me an avid fan of List Universe
22. Kyle - April 29th, 2008 at 6:21 am
TO TOMO:
“If the My Lai incident could have been openly confirmed and investigated back then, we could have done something about it. And now that its disclosed, is anyone going to do anything about it? Just goes to show, out of sight, out of mind. What a short term memory we have, shame on us.”
From the same Wikipedia entry that this list was copied and pasted from:
“The carnage at My Lai might have gone unknown to history if not for another soldier, Ron Ridenhour, a former member of Charlie Company, who, independently of Glen, sent a letter detailing the events at My Lai to President Richard M. Nixon, the Pentagon, the State Department, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and numerous members of Congress.[25] The copies of this letter were sent in March 1969, a full year after the event. Most recipients of Ridenhour’s letter ignored it, with the notable exception of Congressman Morris Udall (D-Arizona). Ridenhour learned about the events at My Lai secondhand, by talking to members of Charlie Company while he was still enlisted.
Eventually, Calley was charged with several counts of premeditated murder in September 1969, and 25 other officers and enlisted men were later charged with related crimes. It was another two months before the American public learned about the massacre and trials.
Independent investigative journalist Seymour Hersh, after extensive conversations with Calley, broke the My Lai story on 12 November 1969; on 20 November, Time, Life and Newsweek magazines all covered the story, and CBS televised an interview with Paul Meadlo. The Cleveland Plain Dealer published explicit photographs of dead villagers killed at My Lai. As is evident from comments made in a 1969 telephone conversation between United States National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger and Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird, revealed recently[when?] by the National Security Archive, the photos of the war crime were too shocking for senior officials to stage an effective cover-up. Secretary of Defense Laird was heard to say, “There are so many kids just lying there; these pictures are authentic.”[citation needed]
In November 1969, General William R. Peers was appointed to conduct a thorough investigation into the My Lai incident and its subsequent cover-up. Peers’ final report, published in March 1970, was highly critical of top officers for participation in a cover-up and the Charlie Company officers for their actions at My Lai 4.[26] According to Peers’s findings:
[The 1st Battalion] members had killed at least 175-200 Vietnamese men, women, and children. The evidence indicates that only 3 or 4 were confirmed as Viet Cong although there were undoubtedly several unarmed VC (men, women, and children) among them and many more active supporters and sympathizers. One man from the company was reported as wounded from the accidental discharge of his weapon.[2]
However, critics of the Peers Commission pointed out that it sought to place the real blame on four officers who were already dead, foremost among them being the CO of TF Barker, LTC Frank Barker, who was killed in a mid air collision on June 13, 1968.”
It was openly confirmed and investigated back then, and several people were prosecuted, most notably a 2LT William Calley (who ended up effectively being the scapegoat for all of the actions that happened that day).
More information:
“On the eve of the attack, at the Charlie Company briefing, Captain Ernest Medina informed his men that nearly all the civilian residents of the hamlets in Sơn Mỹ village would have left for the market by 07:00 and that any who remained would be NLF or NLF sympathizers.[11] He was also asked whether the order included the killing of women and children; those present at the briefing later gave different accounts of Medina’s response. Some of the company soldiers, including platoon leaders, later testified that the orders as they understood them were to kill all guerrilla and North Vietnamese combatants and “suspects” (including women and children, as well as all animals), to burn the village, and pollute the wells.[12]”
“Hugh Thompson, Jr., a 24-year-old helicopter pilot from an aero-scout team, witnessed a large number of dead and dying civilians as he began flying over the village - all of them infants, children, women and old men, with no signs of draft-age men or weapons anywhere. Thompson and his crew witnessed an unarmed passive woman kicked and shot at point-blank range by Captain Medina (Medina later claimed that he thought she had a grenade).[18] The crew made several attempts to radio for help for the wounded. They landed their helicopter by a ditch, which they noted was full of bodies and in which there was movement. Thompson asked a Sergeant he encountered there (David Mitchell of the 1st Platoon) if he could help get the people out of the ditch, and the Sergeant replied that he would “help them out of their misery”. Thompson, shocked and confused, had then a conversation with Lieutenant Calley, commanding officer of the 1st Platoon, who claimed to be “just following orders”. As the helicopter took off, they saw Mitchell firing into the ditch.
Thompson then saw a group of civilians (again consisting of children, women and old men) at a bunker being approached by ground personnel. Thompson landed and told his crew that if the U.S. soldiers shot at the Vietnamese while he was trying to get them out of the bunker that they were to open fire at these soldiers. Thompson later testified that he spoke with a Lieutenant (identified as Stephen Brooks of the 2nd Platoon) and told him there were women and children in the bunker, and asked if the Lieutenant would help get them out. According to Thompson, “he [the Lieutenant] said the only way to get them out was with a hand grenade”. Thompson testified that he then told Brooks to “just hold your men right where they are, and I’ll get the kids out”. He found 12 to 16 people in the bunker, coaxed them out and led them to the helicopter, standing with them while they were flown out in two groups.
Returning to My Lai, Thompson and other air crew members noticed several large groups of bodies. Spotting some survivors in the ditch Thompson landed again and one of the crew members entered the ditch. The crew member returned with a bloodied but apparently unharmed child who was flown to safety. The child was thought to be a boy, but later investigation found that it was a 4-year-old girl. Thompson then reported what he had seen to his company commander, Major Watke, using terms such as “murder” and “needless and unnecessary killings”. Thompson’s reports were confirmed by other pilots and air crew.[19]
In 1998, three former U.S. servicemen who stopped their comrades from killing a number of villagers, significantly reducing casualties at My Lai, were awarded medals in Washington D.C.[20] The veterans also made contact with the survivors of My Lai.”
23. JwJwBean - April 29th, 2008 at 6:27 am
Great job. Interesting facts. I like that you had old and new in the list.
24. King of the Horizon - April 29th, 2008 at 6:30 am
brilliant list!
Operation Northwoods is quite scary
25. Steve2 - April 29th, 2008 at 6:43 am
#2 has always sparked my interest. I have a time/life book at home (title fails me at the moment) that lists interesting facts and it has a list of lost nuclear bombs, including the one for #2. I ran across a website a while back:
http://www.cdi.org/Issues/Nuke.....idents.htm
that goes into details about a lot of lost bombs. Always found it interesting so many have been lost.
26. Mike - April 29th, 2008 at 7:08 am
I find it interesting that the people realize how governments can do terrible things and therefore can’t be trusted, yet so many people believe we should trust the government to run our healthcare system? This shows that the less the government has its hands in, the better. Also, 9/11 was not a conspiracy. You say “With Bush incharge is it too hard to believe!” How many people would have to be in on this conpiracy for it to actually work? How many people would the government have to TELL about this conspiracy for it actually to be covered up? The idea that not ONE of those people would ever come forward to say they were approached by anyone with the idea for 9/11 before it happened is ridiculous. I understand that they would be scared for their safety, but plenty of countries would offer them protection.
27. Mike - April 29th, 2008 at 7:11 am
If a government official came to you with the idea of setting off a bomb in LA so they could blame it on Iran so they could justly go into Iran, would you say yes? Obviously not. You may be afraid for your life, but to think that if it actually happened you would never tell anyone is ridiculous. Also, if it actually was a conspiracy, wouldn’t the government stop anything like “Loose Change” from ever being out in the public. All the things in Loose Change have been explained by physicists by the way.
28. Riley - April 29th, 2008 at 7:16 am
This all reinforces my choice to NOT believe anything the White House says to the public. Since the U.S. seems to be the common denominator in this list, anyone who believes everything they are being told in the media is ignorant. What will be released in 40 years regarding the War in Iraq??? Scary thought…
I’m NOT American, and I am truly glad to live in a country where I don’t feel like I’m being lied to all the time.
29. Tamala - April 29th, 2008 at 7:41 am
mike…you make some valid points about the number of people that would be needed to cover up things like 911, but just one equally ridiculous point among a host of others is, how can a plane strike the pentagon, be vaporised by the heat from the explosion, but the passengers were identified by credit cards and fingerprints? The truth about 911 is that no1 has told the whole truth.
Riley, i hope this list doesnt look like i’m having a pop at the U.S. The fact is, at least the U.S. eventually relases information, it would be very difficult to have a list full of info from china, russia etc, here in Scotland we keep EVERYTHING hidden for as long as possible, hence the reason no4 was included.
30. Hobolad - April 29th, 2008 at 7:49 am
9/11 conspiracy theories are sometimes more easy to believe than not- I mean, Osama bin Laden, once getting wages off the US to terrorise who the US wants terrorising, part of a family that is friendly with the Bushes? It’s Bay of Pigs stuff.
The official account requires a lot of coincidences on that day, I guess.
Not saying I believe either way, but it’s certainly not something to be discounted.
31. Randall - April 29th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Tamala:
Back up a little bit. You did a good job on this list, but don’t run roughshod over the facts about 9/11.
The plane that struck the Pentagon was NOT “vaporized” by the explosion; this is a common error that conspiracy nuts make so that they can then go on to claim that there WAS no plane. It’s not surprising, however, that the plane *was* almost totally destroyed… an aircraft, even a jetliner, is a relatively fragile object… and as physics will tell us, when such an object strikes a far more hefty and structurally strong object (such as the steel-reinforced concrete of the Pentagon) at speed, the weaker object is going to suffer the worse damage.
And who says the passengers were identified by “credit cards” and fingerprints alone? Perhaps a few were—again, as with the plane itself, it wouldn’t be surprising that some body parts survived the crash, although the effects of the collision and explosion would have negated the idea of *intact* bodies… but it’s not impossible that a few personal items would have survived, as well.
32. Bob - April 29th, 2008 at 7:54 am
“I’m NOT American, and I am truly glad to live in a country where I don’t feel like I’m being lied to all the time.”
haha I guess you’re just as ignorant as you think Americans are, then. Wherever you may be from, rest assured that your government at all levels is constantly lying to you. Naive much?
33. Randall - April 29th, 2008 at 7:56 am
Riley:
You’re naive if you think there’s ANY government currently extant that doesn’t lie to its citizens.
In the US we still stand a better chance of extracting information from our government than in many other nations–at least as long as we have a citizenry that actively believes in its freedoms and dignity, and a media which remembers that its job is to find the truth. (admittedly the latter has suffered over the last few years).
34. Kreachure - April 29th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Many of the secrets on this list would be completely unknown or considered mere theories if they hadn’t been declassified. Yet for many years they were secret even though many people were involved.
Then why couldn’t this be happening today?
I’m scared of the things that governments kept secret, but I’m even more scared of what they are still hiding. And rest assured that they can manage keeping a conspiracy under wraps no matter how many are involved, because that’s exactly what has been done in the past (as you can see from this list).
The first priority of a conspiracy is to keep itself secret no matter the cost.
35. HEY THERE!! - April 29th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Anyone hear about those smiley face murders? that sounds like some sort of cover up to me.
36. trojan_man - April 29th, 2008 at 8:14 am
DiscHuker: The government should be given a longer leash with regard to national security if, and only if, the government is preventing an attack of some sort. To take away the civil liberties of civilians just to provoke an action from someone else should be fully disclosed and prosecuted.
37. Tamala - April 29th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Randall thanks for your comments, i totally agree with your points, i hope we can agree that as far as 911 goes, for various reasons, whether we agree with them or not, you and i wont be told the whole truth, not just yet anyway.
38. Randall - April 29th, 2008 at 8:18 am
dr. Hannibal:
Again, we’re getting lectures from a resident of a former totalitarian state on Democracy. You need a dose of humility, Lecter. My hope is that one day you get it. For your own sake. You’d be all the wiser.
Democracy is not a “failed ideology.” Indeed, democracy is NOT an ideology at all–much less a failed one. An ideology is a system; it implies a systematic structure–usually passed down by an elite to the masses, as it were. It usually involves a “master text” as well… such as “Mein Kampf” or “The Communist Manifesto.”
Democracy has none of these. It is simply the rule of the people. Nothing more, nothing less. It implies nothing except freedom and the rule of law… guided by the will, the participation, and the consent of the people. Even our modern day version of democracy—representative democracy, as it were–has no “master text.” The closest thing we have is the codification of its overriding principles in various forms—most notably the Declaration of Independence and the Declaration of the Rights of Man, and in the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.
Fascism and Communism were ideologies, Lecter. Not Democracy.
Neither is it “failed.” Democracy simply requires constant vigilance and active participation of the people. When the people no longer participate–when they no longer care enough, and no longer play the role they’re supposed to play—then it ceases to BE democracy, and becomes something else.
39. Randall - April 29th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Tamala:
Agreed.
One thing I DO feel… that 9/11 needn’t have happened. And one day we’ll have the truth about that–how through incompetence and poor judgement, as well as greed and slimy associations, the various administrations, since the 1980s and most particularly since the Cold War ended—have totally fucked up our foreign policy and practically *invited* this kind of madness to hit us.
But no… we probably won’t know the whole story of that for a long time to come.
40. Hobolad - April 29th, 2008 at 8:25 am
The democracy we have, whether that’s actually “Democracy” or not, has failed I guess. It’s just a word we use to justify doing awful things, y’know? Like “liberty” and such. They don’t mean a thing anymore.
Is it democracy when we can’t really change anything? When we can elect a new face for our governments, but that’s all?
Our countries are only moral when it’s convenient I guess
Someone should do a “Top Ten Common Products made by Slaves” or “Top Ten Evil Sources of Developed Countries Wealth” 
41. trojan_man - April 29th, 2008 at 8:25 am
Randall: Well said. I think the democratic checks and balances system is the best possible government. Sure, it gets abused sometimes and things fall through the cracks, but it is better than one group telling its’ citizens what they can and cannot do.
42. Phillies - April 29th, 2008 at 8:26 am
I swear, someday, when the technology (and my personal wealth…) is there, I’m moving to the moon. Anyone who wants to tag along is more than welcome to come.
43. toolnut - April 29th, 2008 at 8:27 am
superb list!!! Very interesting, yet scary at the same time. Makes me wonder what else they haven’t told us.
44. Randall - April 29th, 2008 at 8:28 am
trojan_man:
Right.
BUT… we ARE in danger of becoming “something else” if we don’t watch it. Now more than ever.
45. trojan_man - April 29th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Hobolad: this country is a democracy because YOU can represent your ideals and morals (along with others) by holding a political office. As far as I know, you only have to be 35 years old and an American-born citizen to be President (it helps to be rich). Not many countries give that kind of hope.
46. Hobolad - April 29th, 2008 at 8:33 am
It’d be cool if it was that easy though. It’s the ones that have the backing of the companies and the religious Fundamentalists that get in.
It’s the illusion of choice I guess.
47. jfrater - April 29th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Hobolad: hey - nice to see you on the site again - it has been ages!
Phillies: hmm - do I get a special discount?
trojan_man: you can be president if you are born of an American parent who lives in another country - I think the only requirement is something about having BEEN in America within so many years of the election.
48. jogiff - April 29th, 2008 at 8:40 am
The USS Liberty was not an intentional attack on a US ship. Us intelligence agreed with Israel that it was probably an Egyptian ship disguised as a US ship and only realized that it wasn’t when it was too late.
http://www.thelibertyincident......eports.pdf
Furthermore, what possible motive could ISrael have had to attack a US ship?
49. Hobolad - April 29th, 2008 at 8:48 am
jfrater: You remembered
I’ve been an avid reader. It’s quite an accomplishment for the site to be as interesting now as ever- congrats!
I guess the problem isn’t with democracy, or communism, or socialism- just with human nature. Selfishness and such. I mean- slavery is horrible! But if it’s tasty chocolate or cheap clothes, we’ll condone slavery (I mean try and boycott Nestle or Coca Cola, it won’t do a thing, people love ‘em)-out of sight out of mind- no one cares, except when someone does a documentary, then people are expected to care. And for a couple of days, they do.
It’s kinda like those animal cruelty types who see animal cruelty everywhere they look. Everywhere you look you can see something that is rotten under the surface. Almost everything, in fact
50. DiscHuker - April 29th, 2008 at 8:50 am
hobolad: why take a pot shot at “religous fundamentalists”? you expose your bias. other than the bush boys, and maybe reagan, what president has benefited from this backing?
51. DiscHuker - April 29th, 2008 at 8:52 am
hobolad: i think you hit the nail on the head noting that the problem with human forms of government is that there are humans involved. our nature is the problem. it is just manifested in whatever we set our minds to.
52. dr. Hannibal Lecter - April 29th, 2008 at 8:54 am
@Randall:
Well, you said it: former. If I ever start feeling like I need a dose of humility, I will call you and we can go to a Humility Workshop together.
So democracy is “the rule of the people”? And “implies nothing except freedom and the rule of law”. Whose laws? Laws of the people? How many laws have you written? How many laws have you voted for? Do you think that your “freedom” consists of choosing one crooked bastard over another? Because I don’t see anything beyond that. Democracy - like socialism and communism - does not exist in practice.
If democracy isn’t a ideology, it certainly is an illusion of freedom. (A very good one apparently)
I know you won’t believe a thing I say, because I am “a resident of a former totalitarian state”; so I suggest going to a sociology college (in a foreign country if possible), you will learn the difference between “old school oppression” and “voluntary oppression” (think “Patriot Act”).
Also, would you mind answering my post on “Top 10 Most Dangerous Places on Earth”? That ought to be interesting.
@Riley:
Yes you are, you are being lied every day of your life. Don’t even think that your country/govt is better than USA in any way.
53. dr. Hannibal Lecter - April 29th, 2008 at 8:56 am
@DiscHuker:
Correct. Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter which form of government are we talking about. There are always going to be a pack of scheming bastards to take care of business.
54. Hobolad - April 29th, 2008 at 8:57 am
DiscHuker: It wasn’t a pot shot, just an observation. Would a non-Christian have a chance? It’s mainly the Republicans, I guess. Guns and god y’know? Every politician who wants a chance has to at least pay lip service, though.
I mean, over here in the UK- we don’t really do god, Tony Blair coming out as Catholic was very unpopular indeed. Any hint of religion in politics we see in the USA (there’s a lot of it) we kind of…. look down on, I guess. Rightfully or wrongfully. Probably it’s just the cultural difference, but to us any hint of religion is a no-no.
55. Hobolad - April 29th, 2008 at 9:01 am
And I’m not trying to say our way of politics is any better! It most certainly isn’t, but I don’t like to comment on it, being part of the country- you can’t really understand the big picture unless you’re apart from it, I think. An observer rather than a participant.
56. jfrater - April 29th, 2008 at 9:03 am
discHuker: I agree with you and Hobolad. The problem is not just found in politics either - it is also the root of problems in religion I think.
57. Randall - April 29th, 2008 at 9:03 am
jogiff:
There’s more to the story than that.
As I said–it’s been dismissed over the years as an error. And it may have been.
But there are elements of the story that make this highly questionable. You haven’t dug deep enough. The CIA report you cited omits some details and generally whitewashes the matter.
As to WHY an intentional attack would have occurred… good question.
58. Joss - April 29th, 2008 at 9:03 am
I found this when trying to find the link between Werner von Braun and L. Ron Hubbard. Extremely interesting:
http://www.rickross.com/refere.....en240.html
59. jfrater - April 29th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Joss: Ron Hubbard Jr is one of the worst things that could happen to Scientology - he certainly doesn’t hold anything back when discussing the cult! Great link - thanks
60. Tamala - April 29th, 2008 at 9:17 am
wd Joss, the whole point of this list was to encourage people to do their own reasearch..Werner von Braun described Jack Parsons as the real father of the american space programme, his involvement with L. Ron Hubbard is described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babalon_Working
61. Joss - April 29th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Yeah, he’s actually quite brave, isn’t he?
62. Chris - April 29th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Good list! Although I completely disagree with anyone who says that 9/11 was staged.
63. Canuck - April 29th, 2008 at 9:24 am
For those of you debating over whether or not 9/11 was a staged event or not, take a look at this excellent site where the guy goes through a point by point debunking of the “Loose Change” video, and the ideas behind the conspiracy in general. It’s quite good.
http://www.loosechangeguide.co.....Guide.html
It certainly made me wonder how people can believe in a video with this many concerns.
(and I hope the link works when I post it)
64. dave4248 - April 29th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Jfrater, you had me watching intently until #3. I heard the voice of Alex Jones. I wouldn’t believe that guy if he told me water was wet.
65. NeoLudd - April 29th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Yes!
I love me some conspiracies!
Hitler is Alive in Antartica!
Thule-Bavarian control of U.S. Intelligence!
Inner Earth Aliens planning Nuclear Holocaust!
66. Mike - April 29th, 2008 at 9:31 am
While reading a lot of posts I was reminded of an article that I read about ungrateful Americans. Just remember what we have in this country, that’s all I’m asking. Read the article:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/.....ID%3D53028
67. Mike - April 29th, 2008 at 9:35 am
This is a great article about how Americans are somewhat spoiled when it comes to the things we take for granted, I think some people on this site need to read it.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n.....ID%3D53028
68. trojan_man - April 29th, 2008 at 9:39 am
hobolad: every system of government could conceivably work if it were run in the best interest of the people. However, the beauty (and folly) of the USA is that it has a myriad of types of people. No one will always be truly happy with the decisions of the government. Hence, democracy - the majority rules. Oh yeah, Jimmy Carter didn’t get into the white house with huge corporation financing (I think it was looks and smarts, though).
69. NeoLudd - April 29th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Whats up with all the America Bashing?
Goddamn Commie Liberals, just hate freedom I guess.
Heres to the USA!
(drinks beer)
70. warrrreagl - April 29th, 2008 at 9:44 am
OK, who can read the article about Babalon Working and not be reminded of Eyes Wide Shut? Ya know, the one starring Tom Cruise????
71. jfrater - April 29th, 2008 at 9:45 am
NeoLudd: none from me or the list author at least - I have nothing but wonderful memories of my US holidays. I do agree with the beer comment though
72. Tamala - April 29th, 2008 at 10:00 am
warrrreagl, a rather lengthy look at eyes wide shut, lots of high wierdness, make of this what you will,
http://kentroversypapers.blogs.....olism.html
73. Barack Obama - April 29th, 2008 at 10:13 am
@22. Kyle–keep your copy and pastes to a paragraph or two amigo. Or just sum up an idea succinctly in your own words. No need to copy and paste War and Peace as a follow up either.
74. stevenh - April 29th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Tamala:
Excelent Contribution! Thank you.
Though I wouldn’t put the MyLai in the same category as Operation Northwoods. MyLai was not based on an official policy of the US government, and there were court marshals against the perps. Northwoods was a plan of official policy.
(aside to NeoLudd & jfrader: I second that beer comment)
75. CFAustin - April 29th, 2008 at 10:30 am
I would like to take this time to remind everybody that:
The U.S. is not a DEMOCRACY! It is a REPUBLIC!
Some of you think you’re so smart, and you don’t even know the difference.
76. CFAustin - April 29th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Hey Tamala. Do me a favor. Look up the temperature in which jet fuel burns, and look up the temperature in which steel melts.
Do that will you?
Some people pretend to be educated.
77. CFAustin - April 29th, 2008 at 10:44 am
For those of you who think America is bad: I guess you are the lucky ones when I get off work today and I go home to my 2200 sq ft home on my five acres. I’m only middle class, and wish I could afford more, but I guess if I lived in some other country, I could have more.
78. Tamala - April 29th, 2008 at 10:49 am
CFAustin i know all about the temps and the thermite
79. NeoLudd - April 29th, 2008 at 10:56 am
CFAustin: Are you drinking beer? Thats the only way to celebrate.
80. dgsinclair - April 29th, 2008 at 11:27 am
The U.S. is not a DEMOCRACY! It is a REPUBLIC!
And not JUST a republic, but a REPRESENTATIVE republic. Remember, China is a ‘republic’ too - but a COMMUNIST one
81. Amy - April 29th, 2008 at 11:29 am
#7 makes me want to bawl. I can’t believe there are some people capable of doing that to defenseless women and CHILDREN. The picture breaks my heart into a million pieces. Seeing the babies laying near their Moms is awful. I’m a Mommy to 2 girls, and I just have to push this image out of my mind.
82. jeff - April 29th, 2008 at 11:31 am
lol, well, done see canada doing this shit, go figure….
83. lightningclash - April 29th, 2008 at 11:32 am
amazing list, best one in a long time. Keep up the good work. And for all of y’all debating 9/11 being a conspiracy, zeitgeist.com.
84. lightningclash - April 29th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Oh! And I love it how people use wikipedia like it’s the god of all sources.
85. warningdontreadthis - April 29th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Gawd another list
I love you for this jfrater, I’ve told my friends about this site. and they’ve become junkies like me :D! thanks
86. Angelina - April 29th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Very nice. Good research, Tamala. Interesting! Thanks!
87. T - April 29th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Great list, but many of these are choppy, and don’t flow well.
88. Mom424 - April 29th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
One of the best lists in a while. Excellent job Tamala!
Almost makes you want to cozy up to the conspiracy weirdo’s out there. Almost, but not quite.
89. Canuck - April 29th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Tamala, you seem to be someone who actually believes that 9/11 was a conspiracy. I’m curious what drove you to that belief, because from what I’ve seen the vast majority of the evidence is against it.
90. Csimmons - April 29th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Wow, amazing list tamala, one of the best in a while, its amazing what is kept secret.
91. Dana - April 29th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
As I read this, I wondered, “How long before someone claims 9/11 should have been on this list?” And there it was in the very first comment!
92. Tamala - April 29th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Canuck, there are many theories surrounding 911 and i was hoping not to be bogged down by them on this list, it isnt my job to tell you what to believe or what to think, we have enough people doing that to us already. I would merely suggest that you watch something like “loose change” if you think its valid then encourage others to watch it, if you think its nonsense then discard it and leave it at that. One thing i think is 100% fact is that neither you or i or the producers of loose change and other docu’s concerning 911 and indeed even the 911 commision were never going to be told the whole truth about that tragic day when lets not forget almost 3.000 people from 80 different countries lost their lives in a way that none of us could ever imagine if our worst and wildest nightmnares were all rolled into 1. In tribute to their memory im not going to get into a name calling and accusitory game of grammatical ping pong. I realise this answer doesnt fully satisfy your question, but i trust you will understand the reasons for it.
93. NeoLudd - April 29th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Mom424 - If you really need a conspiracy nut to cuddle with, I am that nut.
94. CJ :) - April 29th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
There is an age, citizenship and residency requirement for president.
Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
95. Northerner - April 29th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Lol…Plame.
The Special Prosecuter found that there was no crime committed insofar as revealing her secret identity…that wasn’t so secret. Libby was caught in a technical violation during this waste of a political fishing trip.
Plame was a nobody until she was ‘outed’. Then the poor people who just wanted to be left alone were all over the news and had a giant spread in Vanity Fair.
Please…try to be a little more objective in your list selection. There’s no way this tempest in a tea kettle belongs on the same list as My Lai. You trivialize what was truly tragic by including this nonsense.
96. FCJG - April 29th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Well said, northerner. And the fact that Plame is a higher rank than My Lai. whats up with that? set aside your opinions and use a little objectivism.
97. maxrad - April 29th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Great list, but there are always more ideas to add. Since 911 has already been mentioned (and there’s no definitive evidence) let’s mention a couple where the truth is pretty well known:
Three words: Gulf of Tonkin. 58,256 American dead.
Three letters: WMD. some as-yet-unknown trillions of dollars, some s-yet-unknown thousands of lives.
Do we detect a pattern here?
98. NeoLudd - April 29th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Yeah, heres a pattern for ya….
Back-seat listing.
99. goof_ball - April 29th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Interesting list. Good job, Tamala!
100. bucslim - April 29th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Funny how W’s supposed be such a douchebag idiot moron, can’t talk to save his life, has screwed up everything in our country, but he’s smart enough to pull off one of the greatest conspiracies ever. Interesting. . .
101. Mike - April 29th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Tamala: I have seen Loose Change, but I have also read many articles that debunk everything that is in it. Popular Mechanics has run a lot of articles that debunk everything in it. If people are really interested they should look at both sides and decide for themselves. My opinion is that Loose Change makes a lot of points that make you think, but the other side easily debunks what is in it. I haven’t heard the creators of Loose Change shoot back to defend themselves and I believe they can’t.
102. Tamala - April 29th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
good point mike, “If people are really interested they should look at both sides and decide for themselves”, i totally agree
103. Avi - April 29th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
For as horrible as everything every country on earth has done i just continue to say that there is no goverment that is victimless and innocent. it is not about the goverments! its about the countries! in this country we reshuffle our goverment out every 20 years. that beats the hell out of dictators for life or unopposable rulers. Bush is out in a few months and in a few years no remnants of his cabinet will exist. goverments will always be dishonest, but you have to look at whether a country gives its people the right to change that goverment over time. America can and its something that i love about it.
I love America!
I have little love for our current goverment!
I am patriotic!
I am against the war!
But i love our soldiers and support them!
People who think those comments are hypocritcal or somehow make no sense to exist in one person should really take a look at the way they feel towards their own countries, not just America but all the countries on earth.
104. Kreachure - April 29th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
bucslim: have you ever heard of figureheads?
105. Phillies - April 29th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
47. jfrater
)
Sure. I’ll give you…20% off. But I get to ride shotgun since it’s my idea (I certainly can’t fly the shuttle. I have no idea how
106. canuch - April 29th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Tamala, you completely missed my point, and my question. I for one believe that 9/11 wasn’t a conspiracy theory, and pretty much everyone I know believes that as well. Which is why I want to hear your side of it. I can’t get it anywhere else. You say later that we should look at both sides and then make our decision, so I’m trying to get that other side. I saw Loose Change, and it was horribly put together. I want to hear the side from someone who isn’t looking to make sensationalist claims, and who can make reasonable and imformed comments. I don’t want to engage in “grammatical ping pong” as you put it, I don’t do that on here. This is a place where people can learn, so try and teach me.
107. TheBerns - April 29th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Great list Tamala, great site JFrater.
As regards the 9/11 conspiracy and specifically the rebuke that “9/11 couldn’t be true, too many people would have to keep it quiet and surely at least ONE person would talk… etc..”
I’d just like to say, (I might be reafirming a point already made earlier but i’ve not seen a good retort to it yet) but if all these previous coverups were sucessful and no one blew the whistle on them and it was kept quiet long enough for the public in general to forget, then why can’t it be going on now?
Well it is going on now and i’m fairly sure 9/11 is a coverup. Its not too hard to believe that what happened 9/11 happened as per the official reports, the suicide bombers WERE Saudi, the planes weren’t radio controlled, the pentagon wasn’t hit by a missle, but was in fact hit by a passenger plane flown by ‘terrorists’. People just dont think that the terrorists were in cahoots with certain elements of the US government who are set to become very rich as a result. It’s not that hard to believe this whole idea could be cooked up and spoken about when the guilty Americans and all too happy to comply Bin Ladens (and their contacts) were in regular contact before during and after the incident. I dunno it just smells very fishy to me and money, especially vast sums of money can make people do some very terrible things.
108. Frank - April 30th, 2008 at 1:19 am
Great list, thanks for posting.
Re: 9/11 & whether it was a ‘conspiracy’ or not–it’s simple:
Everyone believes it was a conspiracy. Unless you imagine that a single person pulled off the entire event.
So it’s a matter of competing theories, complicated by the fact there were 4 synchronized events, followed by additional events: the near-freefall collapses of 3 buildings that fell in NYC, including Building 7 (aka, WTC7).
Ask the same questions of Al Qaeda that you would of any possible U.S. connection: how could all those cave-dwellers plan such a huge & hugely successful series of events without ever spilling the beans? -They can keep big secrets for years, but we/Americans can’t?
How did all those Islamic conspirators manage to keep a vast conspiracy quiet? Especially given all the CIA, FBI, NSA, DIA, etc intel–not to mention Israeli Saudi, Paki & British intel, among many others?
How has Osama Bin Laden managed to continue evading all the massive efforts to get him for 6.5 yrs?
Here’s a shocker: check out the FBI’s official ‘Most Wanted Terrorist’ poster (fbi.gov) and see if 9/11 is even mentioned..
Also, check out the Architects & Engineers website:
www.ae911truth.org
The numbers are growing steadily, but at the moment, they have 355 Architectural & Engineering Professionals signed up demanding a new & independent investigation–especially as relates to the 3 towers that all fell in a manner consistent with some form of controlled demolition. That 355 number is hugely significant–for several reasons, but just one is how many hoops you have to go through to be added to the list–it’s an extremely well-qualified list of professionals.
There are many silly theories floating around re: 9/11–including many aspects of the ‘official’ conspiracy theory. Btw, there is no official/sanctioned theory re: how the 47-story WTC7 collapsed in 6.5 seconds on 9/11. N.I.S.T continues to delay it’s report after all these years. And they never bothered to explain the actual collapse sequence of WTC1 & 2, only up to the initiation of collapse.
They also don’t acknowledge the pools of molten metal found/noted by numerous firefighters at the bases of all 3 towers. No good explanation for temps far, far exceeding what jet-fuel can produce–even under ideal conditions (perfect mix of air/fuel).
My suggestion is to remain skeptical of all theories–but especially of the hugely self-serving official versions which have been leveraged to start two wars, reduce freedoms, and torture human beings. Not to mention all the direct profit-connections to Haliburton & various Big Oil interests.
109. Tamala - April 30th, 2008 at 2:02 am
canuck? or canuch? not sure what your name is now. Lack of attention to detail is what lets everything on this list happen. Governments since the beginning of civilisation have lied, we can debate the rights and wrongs of that all day long, but its a fact. Regarding your post @ 89. Where is your evidence that i believe 911 was a conspiracy? You seem to make assumption based on very little or no evidence at all. Maybe seperate lists about 911 myths and truths is whats needed to allow people to see all sides of the issue.
Personally i think the bush administration completely screwed up and ignored warnings from amongst others Bill Clinton, they dug a huge hole for themselves, that they had to cover up so much in the aftermath of the tragedy. This makes it very easy for people to accuse them of all sorts.
My absolute LAST word on 911, i direct you here http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/oddities/911.html
see what you think.
I also note that you dont make any comments on the contents of this list. I’d be interested to read your comments.
110. Tamala - April 30th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Frank..excellent post
111. Frank - April 30th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Tamala, thank you–and my apologies for not commenting on the list you posted.. meant to, but got carried away with 9/11 stuff.
Most on your list were familiar (Gladio, Northwoods, Plame, etc), but some were new to me, so great to learn about them and also to get concise & incisive descripts of all 10.. My Lai was one I’d been meaning to learn more about–especially re: Colin Powell’s involvement. An excellent intro/refresher all round.
btw, that killtown ‘oddities’ site you ref’d is incredible.. saw it a year or 2 ago, but looks like it’s been updated since.
112. Devon - April 30th, 2008 at 3:07 am
To you seriously deluded nuts that think the U.S. Govt was responsible for 911, I assume you also beleive the earth to be flat and that man also never landed on the moon.
Seriously…how utterly uneducated and ignorant can people be??
Islamic terrorists have been threatening the West and East for decades if not for centuries….Islam has been on a blitzkrieg since its inception…it is fighting from the Phillipines to Nigeria and Western Europe and Eastern Europe and Africa and so on and so forth..
People that are so liberally blinded by thier hatred of America choose to look the other way…they HATE truth….
Wait till Sharia starts being established in England and France…then many of you illiterate no nothings will awaked to the real battle that we are in!!
www.faithfreedom.org
113. DiscHuker - April 30th, 2008 at 5:17 am
i don’t know if i would call my lai a conspiracy or not. it was a military action that had terrible results. the reason it made the news, was that a life magazine photographer published photos for the american public that caused an uproar.
when the backlash began, the shit began rolling downhill from the top brass and landed on lt. william calley, the man in charge at the scene. he said he was given an order. the men at headquarters said no we didn’t. the jury said you shouldn’t have listened to such an order.
it never really was covered up. just a terrible handling of a terrible situation.
114. CFAustin - April 30th, 2008 at 5:18 am
Here here, Devon!
115. Mike - April 30th, 2008 at 5:33 am
Frank, WTC7 collapsed in 6.5 seconds from when? From the time the creaking and shaking started? I notice that every time I see a video of this collapse they are showing only one side of the building. Why not show the other side with the huge hole in it and the fact that black smoke is spewing out the back. The building was on FIRE and it was evacuated because firemen figured it would collapse.
As for the pools of molten metal: http://911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html
That explains it all.
I’m not sure what you mean by the N.I.S.T. has delayed its report all these years. It was released over 2 and a half years ago. http://wtc.nist.gov/reports_october05.htm
Unlike conspiracy theorists like the producers of Loose Change, N.I.S.T. actually INVESTIGATES and that takes time.
116. Randall - April 30th, 2008 at 5:44 am
Frank:
The last I checked, most of the “professionals” who were calling for more investigations about how the WTC buildings came down were NOT building engineers. Many ARE professionals in other fields, some are architects… but very few of them have the unique knowledge and experience that structural and building engineers have with this sort of problem–and I would be willing to be that many of them don’t have all their facts straight.
I’ve spoken to this issue of the towers coming down as though from a “controlled demolition” before–and as I’ve said, appearances DON’T equal facts. Now, anyone who reads this site knows that I have an academic background and work in academia. As it happens, I have a good friend who is a former Dean in Engineering, and who is also a Physicist. We once talked about this question. I asked him what he thought, and he said that it *did* look like the towers were brought down deliberately (i.e., in a “controlled demolition.”) I then asked him if he really felt that’s what happened, and he said, “no, of course not,” and we went on to talk about how appearances are deceiving, and how the construction of the WTC towers, along with the unique circumstances of the incident–the deliberate collision of airliners with the towers–caused what happened.
Structural engineers who know anything about the towers will tell you that the mode of their construction practically guaranteed that they would fall just as they did; the core of those buildings was strong, but the intersecting members holding up each floor were not. Not strong enough, that is, to stand up to the punishment of ultra-high temperature flames—something that was NOT planned for in the buildings’ construction. The relative weakness of the extending members (which were without cross-current reinforcement–done in the 70s to save money) also explains why the towers fell like a stack of pancakes.
As with whacko theories about Pearl Harbor, conspiracy nuts fail to realize the simple fact that, EVEN IF such a plan could be–i.e., the government secretly sanctioning or being behind the attacks–it would NOT require the total demolition of the buildings to accomplish what they would have wanted. THE ATTACK is what matters—if the government wanted some excuse to go to war, then all it needed was an attack and some casualties. The outrage would have been the same.
As for Al Qaeda managing a conspiracy—there’s a difference. A) it didn’t take “years” for this conspiracy to go from start to finish–that’s an overstatement. The less time, the easier it is for a conspiracy to reach fruition. B) at the time our society and our law enforcement agencies were woefully unprepared to accept that such an attack could take place. Now, I’d argue that this makes for incompetence on the part of the government, but not complicity.
117. MrSelfdestruct - April 30th, 2008 at 6:19 am
This has got to be on my top ten favorite list of lists.
It may be sadistic, but, I always love rifling through dirty laundry.
It is amazing that all of these, with the exception to #6, have coasted under the radar for all these years.
118. Mom424 - April 30th, 2008 at 7:34 am
re; 9/11
The only conspiracy theory that I subscribe too, happened after the fact. The conspiracy by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. and the scum-bucket lawyer Yu (I think thats his name-he provided legal justification for all sorts of questionable actions) that used the WTC tragedy to misdirect the fears of The American Public in order to begin a war that was unnecessary, at least for the reasons given. (IMHO unnecessary for the real reasons too!) The wham-bam into war also deflected much inquiry into why the USA was woefully unprepared; they had warnings.
119. Hobolad - April 30th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Devon- learn your history. Islam hasn’t threatened the West for centuries at all. Islamic Fundamentalists have only even sprung up in the last couple of decades- the last of the major religions to do so, with Christianity the first. A hundred years or so ago Islamic states were attempting to emulate us and saw Europes burgeoning socialism as the ideal for Islamic society, until we started invading and installing puppet Fascist governments in Islamic countries and suddenly didn’t seem so cool anymore.
And I for one hope Sharia does get into Britain. Learn what Sharia is, it’s not cutting off hands and things- it’s the equivalent of a small claims court. It’s Judge Judy, except not even official, just an impartial person who tries to make both parties in small claims happy, and if they’re not they can go through the courts if they want, which is a lot more expensive.
120. kiwiboi - April 30th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
And I for one hope Sharia does get into Britain.
Hobolad - then you are either an Islamic fanaticist or seriously deluded. There were even a number of Muslim “leaders” in Britain who stated that they did not want sharia law here after that bearded twat Archbishop Williams mad his usual wimpering noises on the topic recently.
Learn what Sharia is, it’s not cutting off hands and things- it’s the equivalent of a small claims court.
ROFLMAO !! Remind me…when was the last time a small claims court ordered a woman to be stoned to death for adultery; or a rape victim to be sentenced to a lashing ?
Because this happens under sharia.
121. kiwiboi - April 30th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
*mad = made (typo)
122. Hobolad - April 30th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Note that I wouldn’t support Sharia as the sole legal system, or any system based in religion as the sole system(like the UKs and the USAs for example)- but I think it should be there as an alternative for those who wish it.
123. Hobolad2 - April 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Just trying a new nickname- can’t see any of my posts
I’m trying to reply to you kiwiboi it just won’t let me
“I made a comment before 122- but can’t seem to see it? Aw well- here’s the gist-
kiwiboi- that’s tabloid myth. Lashings and stonings are from a different time or rarely carried out by Fundamentalists. That’s not Sharia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia“
124. Mom424 - April 30th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Hobolad;
The UK justice system is based on English common law. Not any particular religion. Sorry - Wrong. Canada’s legal system is the same. Judges making decisions based on legal precedent and common sense.
Are you maybe confusing tribal/community policing with Sharia law? We have that here in Canada; in some of our native communities offenders can go before a tribunal where punishment is meted out within the community instead of the courts. Some of our youth offenders (1st time, non-violent) are offered a similar program through The Elizabeth Fry Society; victims (property crime) have a large say in the punishment. Generally it involves community service/education (projects on drug abuse, cost of shop-lifting etc)restitution and shame as they must meet with the victims. I know it has had some success in Native Communities, with Youth I’m not so sure, but it does free-up the courts and it is way less expensive (many of the participants are volunteers).
125. Hobolad - April 30th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
My posts aren’t showing up, I’ve made a few- they just ain’t appearing
Anyway, can’t be bother retyping. Sharia law- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
Lashings/stonings/behandings (whatever you call it ;)) a thing of the past (back in the days when we hung, draw and quartered people…) or by extremists. We only think it representative of Sharia because we have this whole “If it’s Muslim- it’s bad!” zeitgeist going on.
Our legal systems of course have their basis in religion. Divorce/Adultery etc. Marriage even. There are a few et ceteras but I don’t want to make too large a post only to find it not appearing
126. Mom424 - April 30th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Hobolad; I don’t give a shit what wikipedia says, Kiwiboi is correct, a woman was lashed this year for being a victim of rape. Wrong again.
127. Hobolad - April 30th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Ooh, that one appeared! Yay!
Anyway- while it’s working- Sharia law isn’t official. It’s an option. It’s very cheap. It deals with day to day things, like disputes with neighbours and such, rather than murders and the like. It’s not enforced, it’s merely for people to have disputes settled by an independant, and if people aren’t happy they can choose to go through the legal system, with all the expense and time and such that costs.
128. Hobolad - April 30th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Mom424- Well, I’m afraid that’s the tabloid labelling extremist acts as Sharia when it’s not.
129. Mom424 - April 30th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Hobolad;
But it was a Sharia council who decided the punishment. How do you differentiate the good sharia from the bad? Only when you agree with the punishment? Un uh, can’t have it both ways. And what is the recourse? Is there an appeal process in say Afghanistan?
130. Hobolad - April 30th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Mom424- That’s not Sharia law though, that’s the laws of that country represented by Sharia. Sharia law implemented in whatever country still has to follow the laws of that country.
131. Mom424 - April 30th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Hobolad; Here is a quote taken from the article you provided. You should have read the whole thing.
“Many, including the European Court of Human Rights, consider the punishments prescribed by Sharia as being barbaric and cruel. Islamic scholars argue that, if implemented properly, the punishments serve as a deterrent to crime.[68] In international media, practices by countries applying Islamic law have fallen under considerable criticism at times. This is particularly the case when the sentence carried out is seen to greatly tilt away from established standards of international human rights. This is true for the application of the death penalty for the crimes of adultery and homosexuality, amputations for the crime of theft, and flogging for fornication or public intoxication”
Source; wikipedia
132. Hobolad - April 30th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Mom424- And? Law in Islamic countries =/= Sharia law. People just confuse the two often, because admittedly where there’s one there’s usually the other. Sharia isn’t the law, it’s just a way of implementing whatever the law is.
Sharia law in, say, Britain, as the Archbishop guy suggested (Was it an Archbishop? Can’t remember) would merely be a cheap way to settle small disputes that isn’t legally binding. It’s the ultimate Post-Modern legal system.
133. Tamala - April 30th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Hobolad, small claims court??
Amina Lawal, 30, has been sentenced to death by stoning - a fate which would involve being buried up to her neck in sand and have rocks thrown at her head. However, the Islamic court has ruled that the penalty cannot be carried out until Lawal has finished breastfeeding her baby daughter, Wasila, which the judge said would not be before January 2004
full article here … http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....anda.islam
134. Ginny - April 30th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
I wonder how John Glenn feels about Operation Northwoods.
135. Jenna_Bug - April 30th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Although it is not “declassified” yet, 9/11 was definitely operated by the US Government. There is so much proof that that is the case…it’s quite sickening. For any of you who have not seen the “911 Loose Change (full version) video on youtube.com I suggest to take an 80 minutes of your time and watch it…Operation Northwoods pretty much sums it up…
136. Cyn - April 30th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Hobolad-

some links will kick a comment into moderation. ..no matter how many times you post the same link. if a comment containing a link doesn’t show, chances are its in moderation. please do not keep re entering the same comment and/or link. just enter a new comment w/ the link as text not code. sorry but i don’t have any way of knowing which links will work and which won’t. cuz some do. some don’t. if yours doesn’t…the first time…it won’t no matter how many times you enter it. so if you have any doubts if a link will post or not…just use the text not the code. and no, i’m not a coder …so for more technical information about posting links in comments…ask J.
137. revolver0410 - May 1st, 2008 at 1:15 am
So what’s the deal with von Braun and L. Ron Hubbard? How are they connected? My Google skills aren’t that good.
138. Tamala - May 1st, 2008 at 1:48 am
Revolver see post no 60 and follow the link, for some extra info see here http://www.reason.com/news/show/32190.html
139. Hobolad - May 1st, 2008 at 4:01 am
Tamala- That’s not Sharia, that’s just the law as represented by Sharia. It’s like… the jury system in the USA can have people killed. In the UK it can’t. That’s not the jury system, that’s the laws of that country.
Cyn- Sorry! I thought something had gone wrong and that’s why the posts weren’t showing
Thanks for the info.
140. revolver0410 - May 1st, 2008 at 5:15 am
Thanks, Tamala. Interesting read. BTW, 9/11? Inside job. People, start with Loose Change then do your own research. Peace.
141. Mom424 - May 1st, 2008 at 5:39 am
Hobolad;
You are mistaken. You are trying to separate the mechanism from the religion. You can’t do that. Sharia law enforces Islamic law. There are a few countries that allow clerics to rule on some things but not others - this is not the norm. Sharia law as practiced is barbaric almost uniformly.
By the way your goofy statement about UK law being based on Christianity is crap. UK common-law actually borrowed/stole/adapted their legal system from Sharia law. You should read some of the history of British jurisprudence.
Re-read my post #124. That is what you want - NOT sharia law.
142. Randall - May 1st, 2008 at 5:53 am
I hate to sound jingoistic here, but this is very simple…
There is absolutely no earthly reason why sharia should be enacted in ANY Western country… or for that matter any country in the world, but that’s another argument.
The West has an overall tradition of law based on tenets that are WESTERN in nature. It should stay that way.
IF people of another persuasion want their OWN form of rule of law, then let them STAY or return to those countries where sharia (or what have you) prevails. It’s as simple as that.
If you choose to live in a western nation, then you should be prepared to accept western culture as your own, with all the good AND bad that entails. Otherwise, why the hell come in the first place?
143. Randall - May 1st, 2008 at 5:55 am
And Hobolad… you need to do some serious re-reading and deeper research before making these comments… Mom and the others have it right, and you, I’m sorry to say, have it wrong. You’re off-base and deeply naive about sharia.
144. DiscHuker - May 1st, 2008 at 6:01 am
jenna_bug: please don’t take the word of a documentary film maker and then accuse our government of high treason, murder and down right bastardness. check your facts. there is tons of information out there debunking “loose change”.
145. Mom424 - May 1st, 2008 at 6:12 am
jenna_bug; To expand upon DiscHuker’s statement - go read Popular Mechanics - they debunk loose change step by step, each and every point. Loose change is an apt name; they play quick and loose with physics, thermodynamics, and common-sense.
146. SlickWilly - May 1st, 2008 at 7:11 am
Seriously? People are still watching Loose Change? I thought that was a fad, along with that godawful Zeitgeist movie. *sigh* I hate these kinds of movies specifically for this reason. Uninformed/undereducated people watch this drivel and take it at face value. These types of films do nothing except sow divisiveness and ignorance. I think the most personally annoying thing about them is how smart the people who believe this crap think they are. They always act like they have this secret inside information that nobody knows, that somehow they, of all people, are privy to some vast conspiracy that the “average” person is completely and willfully ignorant of. And of course, they like to cap their statements with “do your own research and decide for yourselves!” which I think is particularly laughable, since most of them haven’t bothered to do the research themselves. (Unless you count watching one movie hellbent on twisting the facts to support its convoluted logic and reach preordained conclusions.)
147. Hobolad - May 1st, 2008 at 7:18 am
Again, I’m not the one who’s mistaken about Sharia law. It’s not what people think it is. If someone makes a list about forms of law, I’ll argue the point.
148. lost - May 1st, 2008 at 7:30 am
#146 Slicky,
I dont think there’s anything wrong with people making movies like Loose Change. If anyone is naive enough to take it at face value its their fault.
but people should not be discouraged from making such movies just because it challenges a commonly held belief. if a “loose change” type movie was made about operation northwoods (albeit with better evidence) it would probably have met a similar reaction as it sounds like such an impossibility.
i for one thought some of the claims made in loose change were laughable (especially the part about specific placing of bombs in the towers to ease its collapse) but there was just one thing that was interesting. the part about passengers taking their full names when calling loved ones. I dont remember whether it was just one person or more but that was probably the most odd occurence because it generally does not happen.
however that one point was obviously not enough to make me wonder if any of the other junk in the movie was true. certainly a treat for conspiracy theorists though.
149. Mike - May 1st, 2008 at 7:51 am
#135 Jenna_Bug
If you are going to watch Loose Change, have this website up as well while you are watching it.
http://www.loosechangeguide.co.....Guide.html
It’s a guide to people who hear things that sound smart and automatically think it’s true. The producers of Loose Change forgot to do some research…
150. Mom424 - May 1st, 2008 at 7:54 am
Hobolad; Coward.
How are we mistaken? Sharia law enforces and uses punishments written how many years ago? You are naive to believe that all Sharia law deals with is property disputes. You seem to think that it is all rosy, peachy-keen. Sounds good, group of community leaders getting together to find a fair and common-sense solution to community problems. You neglect to consider what the Quran considers community problems and the proscribed punishments for same.
Again - You cannot separate the process from the Religion.
I’m getting pissed off - read post 124.
Either concede defeat or defend yourself.
151. SlickWilly - May 1st, 2008 at 8:23 am
losty(yomarbles):
I have no problem with movies that challenge the status quo. I have a problem with movies that attempt to challenge the status quo based on false and misleading information, selective research, failing to provide proper context, and do so in a way that appears to the layman that they are factual. Specifically because I then have to put up with people like some on these forums who assert that this crap is true with the same arrogance and simultaneously ignorance of the movie.
No people should not be discouraged from making movies that challenge popularly held beliefs. But people should be discouraged from making movies like Loose Change that challenge popularly held beliefs by taking a foregone conclusion and intentionally twisting the facts to support their erroneous assumptions.
And for god’s sakes, don’t call me Slicky. Slick, Willy, or SlickWilly will be just fine, thanks.
152. Jenna_Bug - May 1st, 2008 at 8:37 am
I have done research and yes there are things that are debunked, however, you mean to say that you can read this list of things that have been declassified, things that people had no idea about and you don’t believe there is just a chance that 9/11 was just a scheme built by our own government? I’m not saying I believe everything the video depicts, I’m not that stupid, but it just makes too much sense that this really could have happened. I love living in America and having all the opportunities I have, but I believe there are MANY MANY secrets kept from us…regardless, 9/11 was a terrible day, innocent people died..it was something that should have never happened.
153. lost - May 1st, 2008 at 9:06 am
Slick, Willy, SlickWilly (Choose the name you love the most)
Firstly the “y” was a typo. I didnt