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Top 10 Weapons That Could Have Lost Us The War

Imagine if the Nazis had bombed New York City the same way they bombed London. Imagine if they had a fleet of aircraft carriers rivaling, at least, Japan’s fleet. Imagine if they fielded a jet fighter in large numbers well before D-Day. Imagine that they had guided missiles, an assault rifle like the AK-47 and (gulp) “the bomb.”

Well, you don’t have to imagine, because Nazi Germany developed many weapons systems and programs that could — COULD — have been game changers had they been completed, completed sooner, or fielded in large numbers. These 10 weapons listed below show just how close-run WWII was. Fortunately, the weapons were never fully developed, built in small numbers or deployed too late to seriously affect the course of the war. Nazi politics, strategic materials shortages, the Allied bombing campaign, production problems and even boneheaded interference from Hitler himself fortunately relegated these systems to mere idle speculation, instead of the tools that won the war for the Nazis. But it boggles the mind to imagine what might have happened if Hitler didn’t go to war in 1939, but waited several more years.

10

“The bomb”

Hiroshima.Jpg

It’s a matter of minor debate concerning how far along the Germans were in developing an atomic bomb before Allied bombers wiped out the efforts for good. But make no mistake, they were trying to build one. Could you imagine Hitler having atomic bombs? America, of course, developed the atomic bomb first—to be used initially against Germany. This is number 10 rather than number one because everything else on this list actually existed, either as prototypes or as operational weapons.

9

The Focke Achgelis Fa 223 helicopter

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0flSwzjnMA&hl=en&fs=1]

The “Dragon” helicopter was invented some time before the war, but the Germans were the first ones to actually put a whirlybird into production. The Fa-223 was the latest in Focke’s helicopter designs and was a good aircraft. And, for once, interference from Nazi bigwigs actually only played a minor part in production and deployment. Twenty examples were built by the winter of 1942-43 when Allied bombers plastered the only factory making them. Attempts to resume production failed, and resources were directed to more critical systems. But imagine if the Nazis had succeeded in deploying such an aircraft in large numbers before the war turned against them. The clip is from Military Channel’s Top Ten Helicopters. Fascinating fact: When German paratroopers rescued Mussolini in 1943, they were supposed to go in using a Fa 223. But the helicopter developed engine trouble, and the troopers used gliders instead.


8

He-100 fighter

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cGC47uHwZk&hl=en&fs=1]

In March 1939, Luftwaffe pilot Hans Dieterle achieved an absolute average speed record of 463.9 mph, the last such speed record set before the war. His aircraft was the Heinkel He-100V8, a fighter prototype. Although possessing excellent flight characteristics (speed, dive, maneuverability, range, etc.) the He-100 never entered production. Nazi officials decided to stick with the Messerschmitt BF-109 as its primary fighter and ordered Heinkel to focus on making bombers. Aviation enthusiasts and historians disagree as to why the He-100 died: Was it politics, poor decisions by Heinkel, production problems or something else? The He-100 prototypes were retired or sold to other nations, especially Japan, whose decent mid-war Kawasaki Ki-61 fighter—the only non-radial fighter Japan fielded—was based on the He-100. Why could this have been a game-changer? Because had the Nazis and Heinkel gone ahead with production of this fighter, which was supposedly superior to even the hot Focke Wulf FW-190 introduced later in the war, events such as the Battle of Britain could have turned out much differently. The He-100, for example, had much greater range than the 109 and was far superior to the Me-110, and could have easily fended off British fighters trying to get at German bombers. Note: The clip appears to be a Japanese film of Dieterle’s record flight.

7

Type XXI U-boat

Picture 1-93

The U-boats (submarines) used in World War II were superior in every way to their WWI counterparts, and the Type XXI vessel outclassed every other submarine of every navy. The Type XXI, dubbed the Elektoboote, was the first operational submarine designed to run totally submerged for extended periods—meaning, far longer than the submerged operational viability of the Type VIIC, the most numerous U-boat type. The Elektroboote could stalk Allied ships with far more impunity than earlier models thanks to its greatly improved batteries and “stealth” modifications that made it difficult to detect by Allied sonar. The type’s weapons systems were superior, including hydraulically-loaded torpedoes and torpedoes aimed by sonar, which eliminated the need to raise the U-boat to periscope depth for attack. Between 1943 and 1945, German shipyards built 118 Type XXI boats. But only four were combat-ready by the time the Germans surrendered, and only one ever went on patrol. Boneheaded production decisions, including those by Albert Speer, and Allied bombing prevented this deadly boat from ever becoming a menace.

6

Strategic bombers

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOjvZXSok4g&hl=en&fs=1]

After its successful debut in the Spanish Civil War, the Luftwaffe set on a strategy of using only tactical bombers (light, medium and dive bombers), eschewing the four-engine heavy bombers being developed in England and America. This concentration on highly vulnerable and lightly armed bombers meant that the Luftwaffe never had a true strategic heavy bomber. Although in possession of some four- and six-engine planes at war’s start, none was truly suitable for strategic bombing. Luftwaffe attempts to finally build long-range city-killers were either disasters or abandoned. The Heinkel He-177, the only Luftwaffe strategic bomber to enter into production, was a disastrous failure. It was a flawed four-engine design featuring two engines mounted in tandem on each wing, which frequently cased fires. Hitler also demanded that massive plane be capable of dive-bombing, which was totally wacky, and contributed to its serious problems. Along the same lines was the “New York bomber” program, which featured two aircraft, the Junkers Ju-290 and the Messerschmitt Me-264, with designs to bomb New York City. But the program never went beyond the prototype stage. The few models of the decent Ju-290 were used not as bombers but long-range couriers between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan late in the war. Meanwhile, one complete Me-264, which curiously looked like the American B-29 Super Fortress, was completed and another two were under construction when the “New York bomber” program was abandoned permanently. The clip, which doesn’t have sound, is of a J-290.

5

Heinkel He-219 “Owl” night fighter

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FLEnG07pXE&hl=en&fs=1]

This superb, purpose-built, 2-engine night fighter was the best Axis night fighter of the war, and one of the finest piston aircraft made prior to the jet age. Just one He-219 downed 25 Allied bombers in a matter of *days* during the prototype period; the plane was that good. While possessing excellent flight characteristics, formidable weaponry and radar guidance, the plane was somewhat complex to build. Heinkel only built a few hundred, partially because they were ordered to concentrate on bombers. Instead, the Luftwaffe relied on modifying existing aircraft, namely Me-110s and Junkers Ju-88s. In far larger numbers, the He-219 could have brought nighttime RAF bombing operations to a close. The clip, which doesn’t have sound, appears to be of a captured He-219 with USA markings.


4

Graf Zeppelin aircraft carrier

503Px-Bundesarchiv Rm 25 Bild-30, Flugzeugträger "Graf Zeppelin", Bau.Jpg

The Kriegsmarine (German navy) never had an aircraft carrier during WWII, but it came close. In 1935, Hitler deemed that the Kriegsmarine would build aircraft carriers. At this point in naval history, the battleship was still the primary naval vessel, and aircraft carriers something of a novelty; therefore, naval treaties concentrated on limiting battleship tonnage. In 1937, shipbuilders laid the keel for the 33,500-tonne Graf Zeppelin and launched her the next year. However, she was never completed. Herman Goering thought that the carrier would intrude on the duties of his Luftwaffe, and Admiral Karl Doenitz championed U-Boats over surface vessels. Such territorial fights and the increasing shortage of war materials led to her abandonment at 80% completion. The Soviets captured the Graf Zeppelin in 1945, but it wasn’t learned until 2006 that the Soviets used her for target practice and sank her in 1947.

3

V-2 and other guided weapons

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjFTN-YdK_M&hl=en&fs=1]

Germany employed many radio-controlled weapons during the latter half of the war, including the V-1 Buzz bomb, a slow, primitive cruise missile that was easy to shoot down. Radio-controlled air-to-surface missiles, such as the Henschel Hs 293 guided bomb, were a hassle for Allied shipping until techs found ways to jam the signals. Of all the German radio-controlled weapons, the V-2 ballistic missile was the most successful. However, the Nazis used the V-2 primarily to terrorize London, Antwerp and elsewhere during the last full year of the war. Much more powerful and faster than the V-1 “buzz bomb,” the Hs-293 and the “Mistel” (an old bomber packed with explosives literally flown by remote to a target), the V-2 was quite difficult to shoot down and packed a powerful explosive punch. One wonders what could have happened if the Germans had used such weapons exclusively against Allied troops instead of civilians. Considering that by summer 1944 the Allies had near total air domination in the west and the Soviets were closing hard from the east, such a weapon could have proven costly to the Allies—and cheaper than sending in fighters and bombers. With a mobile launch platform and a high-speed flight, the V-2 could — COULD — have gone a long way to negating Allied air power. But almost all of the 10,000 V-2s launched directly targeted civilians.


2

Sturmgewehr StG-44 assault rifle

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMw4n4n-TKg&hl=en&fs=1]

Germany fielded many powerful weapons systems for the Wehrmacht, including the fearsome Tiger and Panther tanks and the 88-mm cannon. (My wife’s late grandpa had many stories about being fired on by those %#[email protected]! 88s.) The Wehrmacht’s small arms inventory was good, though a little unwieldy. The basic German soldier went to war equipped with the Karabiner Kar98, an old but powerful and reliable bolt-action rifle with a 5-shot cartridge. (The Kar98 is still in use!) Elite German troops, such as the paratroopers, as well as the SS and Gestapo, were often equipped with the MP-40 or 41 machine pistol / submachine gun. German armories, however, created a very powerful and versatile submachine gun *almost* akin to the famed postwar Soviet AK-47. In trained hands, the StG-44 could lay down a devastating hail of 7.92mm bullets (the same as used by the Kar98), and provided the power of the Kar98 and up-close versatility of the MP-40. During the last year-and-a-half of the war, they proved their effectiveness, so much so that when Hitler asked his generals in July 1944 what they needed, one of them exclaimed, “More of these rifles!” However, the StG-44 came too late in the war to have any appreciable effect. East German police units used them as late as the early 1960s. The clip is from Military channel’s Top Ten Combat Rifles.

1

Messerschmitt Me-262 “Swallow”

The Me-262 was the world’s first operational jet fighter. Despite frequent engine problems, the Me-262 was a fast and deadly aircraft, and outpaced almost all Allied fighters (only the P-51D Mustang could match it.) It could have gone operational in the fall of 1943, when the war was still pretty much in the balance. At that time, the Luftwaffe still had not lost most of its veteran pilots and Allied escort fighters could not penetrate too far into the Reich. The Me-262 could have swept Allied bombers and fighters from the sky, giving Germany critical air dominance once more. Fortunately for the world, Hitler himself demanded that the new fighter aircraft be modified for dive-bombing use — a purpose for which it was not designed. This meddling delayed construction and deployment for more than a year. By the time the Me-262 took to the skies operationally in late 1944, it was far too late. The clip shows a restored Me-262 at a 2006 air show in Berlin.

Listverse Staff

Listverse is a place for explorers. Together we seek out the most fascinating and rare gems of human knowledge. Three or more fact-packed lists daily.

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  • Don

    I think number 2 is actually spelled Sturmgewher. I could be wrong…it happened once before. :)

    • Gun Guru

      Nope, it’s Sturmgewehr. Sturm meaning Storm (as in Sturmabteilung – Storm Division/detachment) and gewehr meaning rifle. Literally Storm Rifle. However, the Storm in this meaning also means assault. So yes, the well-known name “assault rifle” was created by Hitler.

  • cymraegbachgen87

    37 – I agree. I think the biggest mistake Nazi Germany made was fighting both the Soviets AND the Americans, AND the rest of the allies. It made their battle lines waaaayy too big.

    Although I'm sure an american will swiftly come and testify against that :)

    Cyn – no worries. Didn't even notice it had been delayed!

    • TJ

      I’m an american, and honestly I think you’re absolutely right. Idk if Germany would’ve defeated America one way or the other however I doubt America could’ve defeated Germany either. I say this because at the time many Americans owned guns, and knew how to use them. That would make American an extremely difficult country to invade.

      • Jstrump

        At that time there were very few gun laws in the majority of countries…

  • STL Mo

    About America's entry into the war… it's one of the fallouts of the post-war world (i.e., the Cold War) that overemphasis was made on the American contribution and underemphasis on the Soviet contribution. Both were critical, but more Soviets died fighting the Germans than the all of the rest of the Allies combined. MOST of the heaviest, destructive and bloodiest fighting of the war took place between 1) Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, 2) Japan and the United States and 3) Japan and China.

    Remember, by the time Hitler invaded Russia, most of Europe had already been knocked out of the war, and did not partake in fighting of 1941-1945 (until the Allies reconquered them, that is).

    Post-war (and wartime) suspicions and hosility between the Allies and the Soviet Union led to such curiosities as the over-emphasis on the invasion of Sicily and the virtual Western ignorance of the Battle of Kursk, the largest tank battle in history, in which Soviet armies anihilated the Germans and put them permanently on the defensive. Both took place in July 1943, but unless you are a history buff, chances are you've heard of the sideshow of Sicily and nothing of Kursk.

    • TJ

      I’d just like to point out, part of the reason the Sovet Union took the number of losses they did was that Hitler’s attack caught them by surprise. Plus the Red Army’s tactics at the time pretty much consisted of charging forfified locations en masse. Their contributions were extremely important, there’s no doubt about that, but casualties aren’t a good way to judge such things.

      Thermopylea is a good example of that.

  • JUNQUEMAN

    Pres Oshama–That’ll cost us the war for sure

  • jajdude

    Discriminatory guns on the list, g – as I sit here eating my jaegerschnitzel und mein spaetzle, I refuse to accept that anything save too much Nietzsche, too little Schopenhauer lost us the war ya

  • RAFA

    Interesting list, just shows that the war was very finely balanced. It seems to me that we are all lucky that Hitler seemed to have a fasination on having things have the capability to dive bombing!

  • joe mama

    Too little too late

  • shar

    So basically, Hitlers own pigheadedness and need to Micro Manage ensured that I didn’t have to learn High German in school.

    Good to know…

  • downhighway61

    Travis. Even if I enjoyed jokes like that those wouldn’t be funny.

  • Deziner

    Comments 6 & 7

    Travis–WTF Man?!

  • Mclovin

    @Travis Or how bout you shut the hell up you stupid ignorant ass !
    To compare the murder of 6million Jews to some stupid brainwashed morons blowing them up is highly offensive.
    So are your ignorant and anti-semtic remarks but your obviously pretty dim so we wont worry about that too much!

  • Wildlifeman

    Great list. With regards to the atomic bomb, Hitler’s decision to persecute Jews led to many fleeing the country, including some of its top physicists, thus delaying development. And as mentioned in other items in the list, his other decisions led to them having no real way to deliver it.

  • Travis’ comments have been removed. Travis – there is a limit to what is acceptable and you have breached it. All of your comments will now be checked by an admin before they appear on the site. It would have been nice to think you would have learnt from the last time you posted but you haven’t. So now I have to monitor what you say when I should be working on the Listverse Book. So thanks – not only have you offended everyone here, you have just made my job harder.

  • DCI

    Amazing how wars produce great technological breakthroughs. Maybe a mention for the german tanks like the tiger or later panzer models.

  • Mclovin

    @jfrater thanks nicely done ;)
    By the way in regards to the Nazi atomic bomb, whilst it is true the nazis wanted to develop a bomb the allies were not only further along but also pursuing the correct way to build a bomb where as the Nazis were actually closer to building a nuclear reactor than a working bomb!
    If you read up on Heisenberg you will see that there were plenty of German physicists left however many of them either stalled the project or pushed it in the wrong direction fearing what a nazi bomb could have achieved!

    Also you didn’t mention the Nazi’s guided missiles and rockets.

  • Don: I think this may be your second time then :) It is spelt correctly in the list and it means “storm rifle” – because it was to be used in storming the enemy. In German, “gewher” means nothing, in German, “gewehr” means “rifle”.

  • ChrisKish

    @jfrater: The problem isnt with the Gewehr portion. In German Sturm means storm I dont think “Strun” means anything.:) Besides that really good list, its scary to know how advanced the Nazis actually were.

  • ronsantohof

    The Japanese developed submarine aircraft carriers. One group was going to attack the Panama Canal but they were called back to defend Japan.

  • scrumpy

    yay! Guns on the list!

  • STL Mo

    Thanks for publishing this, jfrater! It was fun/scary to put together.

    I wonder if you could make one change: in #6 strategic bomber, the picture is the only completed Me-264, instead of the clip of the Ju-290. I must have sent you the wrong link.

  • STL Mo

    Yes, it’s “Sturm” with an “M.” My mistake. I should have had my glasses on when making the titles!

  • Nicosia

    Did a couple of lists disappear from this weekend?

  • Lostagent

    In my opinion, the untimely attack on pearl harbor actually saved us all. I can’t imagine what would happen if America would enter the war even a year late. Britain too would probably have been overrun by then.

  • deviantmiss

    @jfrater well done removing travis`s comments. prehaps if he is daft enough to keep doing what i guess he thinks are clever remarks it would be prudent to remove him altogether. well done on a good list. its a shame moronic “people” can`t just get a life instead of annoying others.

  • lingerer

    Where’s Ironman? :D

  • SoundProof

    Wow, someone else from STL, MO? I thought I was the only one who knew of this website in St. Louis. LOL.

  • ‘tunes

    The Allied bombings of Dresden and Tokyo were much, much worse than the Nazi bombing of London. Just saying – they’d make better points of comparison.

  • oouchan

    Interesting list. I only knew of 2 of these before…the rifle and the u-boat.

  • cymraegbachgen87

    O dear travis. Well in Jfrater!

  • Cyn

    ’10. jfrater’ given this comment ..any comment containing ‘travis’ will go into moderation. ’27. cymraegbachgen87′ which is why your comment did. it has been released. for now, don’t use that word or the comment will be moderation until an admin. has a chance to release it.

  • Nicosia

    I freakin’ LOVE St. Louis!

  • jos

    #20

    I was also curious. I could swear that two lists from the past weekend disappeared. I can’t remember anything about them, though, so maybe they weren’t particularly memorable. Or maybe I’m crazy.

    Curiosity kills the cat and everyone else, does anybody mind filling me in on a paraphrased version of what Mr. Tr commented that brought about such a reaction?

  • STL Mo

    ‘tunes — Dresden, Tokyo AND Hamburg. MY Dad, who lived in Japan for about five years, once told me that “we paid back Japan for Pearl Harbor many, many times over.”

  • Cyn

    a comment by deviantmiss on this list & one by Ginny on the cake list were in moderation when i checked in this morning. so these changes happened overnight, as well as some lists being ‘archived’. any further questions should be addressed to J. i would suggest via email.
    :)

  • GTT

    OK, my curiousity has been officially piqued… What is going on with that T fellow (I´m avoiding the name so I dont go into moderation)? Was it that bad?

    Anyway, great list although I have to say I´ve always felt more interest in WWI for some reason. I wonderif Hitler had had these weapons if he would have turned to Lat.Am. at some point… Although it seems to have been completely off his radar.

  • joanne

    16. ronsantohof:
    i remember watching on the history channel that those aircraft-carrying submarines could have been used to carry bombers loaded with bombs filled with fleas infected with Bacillus anthracis to depopulate los angeles or san francisco, and that they were the inspiration for the nuclear submarines developed by the US during the cold war

  • Nicosia

    30. jos- I know one of them was about non-existent diseases… I personally didn’t like it.

  • Jim C

    great list!

    It has two small errors:

    1) Less than 4,000 [email protected] were launched, not over 10,000.

    2) The He-219 did not shoot down that many planes in 10 days – it was german Propogaanda. Although highly effective, the claims made did not match records of British air losses – especially claims of Mosquitos downed.

    But still, a great list!

  • jeremy

    in reference to Lostagent.
    By the time that America was bombed the German army had turned their attention away from Britain and focused on the Soviet Union with all their might. I do agree that it is a good thing America got involved but there is no way that Britain would have been overrun. I could be mistaken but American troops did not enter europe until around either late 1942 or early 1943. At this time The German army was being decimated by the Soviets and not able to fight at full capacity

    Just my two cents :)

  • Cedestra

    33. GTT: I am, too, but I’ve found that when dealing with the occasional idiots that visit this list, it’s best to not know. :)
    I can’t say this is a topic I enjoy, but I like the research and writing done with the list. Good job, STL Mo.

  • jeremy

    I bet those Americans didnt even know there was a war before that.

    All jokes, sorry. but i have heard of some people not knowing there was more going on before the Americans entered. stupid educational system of today

  • Nicosia

    I wonder if we (Americans) had stayed out of it, how many people would be mad at us for that?

  • jeremy

    No one would be mad of course, we would all be one nation and there would be no teachings of the old days. just how glorious Germany is :P

  • Fivestring63

    I think I saw a movie, or maybe it was a real life event, where somebody was sent to kill a person that was going to assasinate Hitler. The reason was to let Hitler keep managing the war because he was incompetent at doing so.

  • Nicosia

    LOL Jeremy! So true!

  • jeremy

    Everyone is happy that America joined, but in all honesty i think the Soviets had it. By the time dday had happened they had already pushed Germany out of Soviet territory and were making gains beyond their borders. It would have just taken an extra 5 or more years is all since if america was not involved dday wouldnt have happened to split forces

  • Nicosia

    I think the scariest thing about that whole affair is that Hitler was actually voted into power.

  • jeremy

    That’s not that surprising, George Bush was voted in “twice”

    Hitler was smart, a good politician and charismatic. He is one of the only politicians to follow through on what he promised as well

  • jeremy

    sorry the quotation marks should have been around voted

  • DiscHuker

    jeremy: that is rediculous to the point of incompetency to equate President Bush to hitler.

    • Name Pyncky

      I agree. We should not compare G.W. Bush to Hitler. It would be closer to compare Hitler to Cheney. Bush was just a stupid puppet.

  • gabi319

    21. Lostagent
    Pearl Harbor was a surprise, for sure, but by no means untimely…that war had been going on for years and both American coasts were vulnerable to an overzealous opposition. Although taking a pacifist stance, the US was a strong (economic) supporter of the Allied nations. It was merely a matter of time before something happened (and there’s quite a bit of controversy over that something) that would turn the American popular sentiment to pro-war and FDR acknowledged this. He had prepared for the inevitable entrance into war and dare I say, was anxious to enter war. It was merely an American-centric outlook that kept us from actively fighting for so long.

    In regards to the Allied movements in Europe, Jeremy (37) has got it spot on. Although battered and bruised, Europe’s Allies were doing a commendable job containing the Axis Powers (and the antagonism between Hitler and Mussolini certainly helped!). I think the Allies would certainly still win in Europe when Hilter’s resources ran out. The US had a greater impact on the Pacific front, where Japan’s power was going mostly unchecked, despite American embargos.

  • gabi319

    oy, stupid stumble upon distracting me from listserve. Posted my comment when it was already answered, haha.

    You’re pushing a fine line there with your Bush-Hitler comparisons, jeremy…

  • mailedbypostman

    I’m pretty sure the Allies had spies in the German nuclear program, and saw that the German were going entirely the wrong way with it. still scary, but fortunately not that close.

  • copperdragon

    52. gabi —

    True, there’s a fine line. Unfortunately, Hitler was a better commander, more charismatic and more popular (in his day) than Bush. The comparisons are not giving him enough credit. If he hadn’t developed a love of dive-bombing, the war may have turned out very differently.

  • LeeJH

    What’s this ‘us’ rubbish (in the title) – some people reading this are descended from the losers (or are surviving losers), you insensitive clod. (-:

  • GTT

    copperdragon (54):

    I agree. I think most people are automatically thinking of all the atrocities committed by Hitler but I *think* that the comparision was meant to underline the fact that Hitler was elected and he turned into a war-hungry beast. Can we not say the same about Bush?

  • gabi319

    54. copperdragon
    I was not referring to Bush as Hitler and vice versa. I took contention to the ‘was “voted” in twice’. I am most assuredly anti-Bush living in a surprisingly conservative location but despite the fact that I think a number of people voted for the Republican party rather than for the candidate, I do believe the voting worked as it was supposed to in choosing whom people thought were ‘somewhat better qualified’ in the past few (and hopefully a majority) of presidential elections. This was done without the violence and largely un-Hitler vote. Twice he lost the majority vote in 1932 by a clear margin and then used subterfuge to gain dictatorship. The rest of you can hash out the personality and characteristics between the two men. My view on that is: Bush is out of office therefore out of mind. He did his duty uniting everyone (except FOX News) ‘under one nation, indivisible…against Bush.’ Time to move on.

  • Cybogen

    Is there any thought about the idea that Biological or deadly gas weapons could have been used also to make it onto this lost?

  • jeremy

    In response to the Bush Hilter comparison. I was not comparing atrocities, or what they respectively did in office. Nicosia mentioned how they thought it was crazy that Hitler was voted into power and i was merely comparing the fact that both were voted in despite their obvious shortcomings/downfalls etc.

    In no way was i comparing what George Bush has done to what Hitler had done.

  • jeremy

    Also can one be so sure that they would not vote someone like Hitler into power nowadays with the way the world is going? One has to remember that anti semetic ramble was not his bread and butter when trying to get elected.
    The comparisons are there with how Obama was elected, as far as i know anyways.
    The masses were fed up with the former government in a time of need. depression and recession
    Both are very charismatic, said all the right things at the right times.

    As a canadian i really dont know that much about the American election except for kind of following it, but there are similarities in how they were voted into power.
    It goes as far as that, i am not insinuating anything about obama

  • Carlos

    @ Jeremy If people would read the comments and responses to comments; then they would have understood what you were saying by seeing what you were saying in context. I thought it was worth cracking a grin when I read it. Why do people always have to be on the ready to attack each other before they understand whats goin on?

  • Yaaaayyyy … I

  • jeremy

    Gabi

    From what i remmeber the Nazi party may have not had majority but they were the leading vote getters for 2 years in a row i believe. In that sort of governemnt it is more difficult to get a majority, or one party government. If they were to have gotten over 50% of Germans to vote for them that would not neccesarily dictate that they would have a majority government. I am using the Canadian system as an example because they seem similar but honestly i dont really know anything about both systems

  • Why is only half of my comment published … I know it had something to do with my love for Der Fuehrer but … ???

  • Ironcross

    I don’t understand how a P51 could match another plane that was 100 mph faster no matter hwo tightly it could turn. The pilots of the 262 were trained to attack at full speed – against bombers. The Mustang could never keep up. And as far as statistics go with Mustangs v. the 262 – by the time the ME262 entered the war the german pilots were greener than green. There are both aircraft in the Smithsonian Air and Space museum in DC. Absolutely cool to touch them.

  • jeremy

    @Carlos

    It is the kind of world we live in today my brother.
    It really doesnt bother me as it shows that others are actively thinking. And in this day and age that is a good thing in my book.

    :)

  • Carlos

    :D

  • Honka

    “Strungewehr” :D *lol*
    It’s spelled “Sturmgewehr”!
    And the “Wehrmact” was the “Wehrmacht”
    Please correct. Thanks.

  • wily

    This list is certainly thought-provoking, but…they assume little on the production of similarly capable counterparts on the “other” side. These weapons could have “lost” us the war in the same way that an epidemic could have.

    That being stated, #6 is likely to be the most valid. Both the Japanese and German military strategies were based around tactical attack. Had the Luftwaffe bombed British airfields with bombers more designed for Strategic Bombing (greater payload, higher altitude) the numbers of production indicate that Britain would not have been able to sustain the R.A.F.

    Grateful for this list – it will hopefully encourage a passion for history and learning. :)

  • gabi319

    63. jeremy
    In 1932, Hitler had lost both elections. The first election, he got the second-most votes to Hindenburg however, Hindenburg did not receive over 50% of the vote so a revote was done and again Hitler lost to Hindenburg. Nazi party protests ensued and to placate them, Hindenburg appointed Hitler as chancellor (partly because the Nazis became the majority party in the Reichstag but then they lost majority seats, blah blah blah…messy messy). Through that position, Hitler grew in power to become dictator.

    How are Canadian elections usually run? I always thought part of the problem with German politics is the extremely multi-party election which has made it very difficult for anyone to receive a majority vote. At times there are six and I think I can recall one election with almost nine viable candidates. My German current events knowledge is a bit weak so things may have changed.

    And for the record, I do read all the comments, which was how I figured out what was inferred in jeremy’s 47-48. I thought it was a weak joke so I called his bluff ;-) Perhaps not visible over the internet but my tone towards jeremy is far lighter than my comment 57 to copperdragon.

  • jeremy

    Sorry i was refering to the parlimentary elections where the Nazi party was the leading vote getter for 1932/33 and they were held a few times i believe.

    We had 5 parties all getting a share in the government in our last election during 2008. In all honesty it kind of confuses me the way Canada runs their elections. they are not so cut and dry like the American elections and i dont follow it all that much so i cant give you any in depth analysis on it.

    We have not had a majority government since 2000, yet our Prime Minister is the head of the party that has the most seats.

    Make sense? cause it doesnt really to me haha

  • Cybogen

    Der Kommissar- After the Fire

  • jeremy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canada_2008_Federal_Election.svg

    There is a link that shows the provincial breakdown from 2008. As you can see there are multiple seats avaialable per province which are voted on through different regions.

  • Spin737

    The Me-262 in the vid is a replica, not a restoration.

  • Spin737

    The P-51 and other allied fighter were about 100mph slower at top speed, and in no way “matched” the Me-262. Where the Me-262 was vulnerable was during the approach and landing phase, where allied fighters would pounce on the slowing jet.

  • Blogball

    Great list STL Mo. I have often thought about the same scenarios you raised in your introduction.
    We have much to be thankful for

  • Ax

    Excellent list– suggests an alternate list of technologies that, if we hadn’t developed effectively, we might have lost the war– like the codebreaking stuff.

  • Rabcarr

    Very interesting list but i am sure there must be more firearms that could be added.

  • RandomPrecision

    I always wonder about stuff like that. the little things that coulda changed history, had things not fallen the way they did. What if Hitler had gotten into that art school? What if he had not turned on the Soviet-Nazi pact?

  • BooRadley

    jfrater: Thanks for pulling the posts by that travesty of a troll, T. I was not here early enough to read what he wrote, but I’m sure it was crass and distasteful.

    My father was a career military man, and retired as a USAF Colonel. He fought in WWII, the Korean War and Viet Nam. He would never allow my brother to play with toy soldiers or guns, because, as he said, “War is not a game.” I fully agree with him there, and I find jokes about war to be an insult to all of humanity, not just the losing side.

    STL MO, this was an excellent list and it was very informative. Thanks for all the hard work you obviously put into it.

  • blackbit

    A really intereating and informative list thankyou.
    ps where did the quotes of emaerson list go??

  • blackbit

    Have correct my typo, ‘interesting’ list

  • DiscHuker

    there is an interesting series of books edited by robert cowley called “what if?” that gives noted historians the freedom to use their imagination if certain seemingly small events had not happened. along the same lines as this list. very interesting.

  • Lifeschool

    Well, what can I say? Fantasic! The topic is enlightening, well presented with plenty of content, and is a real uplift compaired to the list pulled from yesterday (which had good ideas BTW but lacked the ‘IT’ factor – perhaps it will appear again). The comments are supportive and provocative, and I look forward to reading them all in detail when I get time. Kudos STL_Mo :D

  • smurff

    No 7 scary shit – you shut off engines – ( or make a run for it ) – kill me in the sky, or anyway – but not to die at the bottem of the sea.

    Nice list STL Mo

  • STL Mo

    Thanks, all. jfrater – if there is one thing you could do (if your software permits) you could allow authors to correct spelling mistakes or other minor errors after they’re published. Despite my care in checking, I misspelled Strumgewehr and gave the wrong link for the strategic bomber entry. Any way to correct?

    Otherwise, thanks for publishing this.

    Ax #77 – good idea for a list. I’ll see what I can do (unless someone beats me to it).

  • Vince

    All I can say is good thing they didn’t make any of these happen.

  • moonbeam

    Both the list of Emerson quotes and also the list of fake illnesses are missing. Were they removed?

  • TEX

    STL Mo – what can I say but great list.

    I agree with your choice of #1. I’ve had some formal aircraft training, including aviation history and have always thought the ME-262 one of the most important aircraft of any period – granted it had problems (short engine life).
    And as you pointed out, if Hitler and his officers could have kept from meddling with the designers and engineers, and had focused their efforts on fewer, more productive and sensible weapons of war , indeed things could have come out much differently – not that we wouldn’t have kicked their asses anyway.

  • Rorscach

    hey jamie just wondering what happened to the list entitled common sickness blah blah that pissed a lot of listverse commenters…was it removed? good as gold!

  • Eugene

    What happened to the Emerson list? And why are all the comments written in center format instead of left margin form?

  • I have made the corrections mentioned in the comments – thanks for pointing them out everyone.

    I deleted the two posts from the weekend due to the comments.

  • Sparkie

    Liked the list however the stg-44 and the mauser do not use the same round. The mauser uses 8mm mauser (Sized to 7.92mm)The stg44 uses 7.92 mm kurtz which is a shorter round. kinda like the difference between 7.62 nato (7.62 x 51) and 7.62 soviet (7.62 x 39) . good list

  • Eugene: see my previous comment about the lists from the weekend. I have just corrected the centered commenting mistake :)

  • badlist

    Great list…I guess.

  • STL Mo

    jfrater – thanks for making those corrections. I’ll run over my things one additional time before submitting next time. :)

  • Lifeschool

    30: jos: – Yeah, there was the random list of Emersons quotes, and a list of social sicknesses (i.e. sick of alcohol, sick of work, sick of being interupted, sick of boredom on Sundays etc).

    46: Nicotia: “I think the scariest thing about that whole affair is that Hitler was actually voted into power.”

    Well, he was Mr. Niceguy then – he said he would make Germany great again; he would turn around the ecconomy, he would provide jobs and facilities for everybody, and he would lead his people into a new era. Guess what? He did! No lies there…

    55: LeeJH: “What’s this ‘us’ rubbish (in the title) – some people reading this are descended from the losers (or are surviving losers), you insensitive clod. (-:”

    This is true in one sense, but in another – would those same ‘losers’ be truely happy in a totalitarian state today; where every nation still struggles for independence and liberation despite being under the German flag? Would those people be happy to see more Jews struck down, and more lands taken over? I can hazard a guess that quite a few Germans today are just glad it’s over – and in that sense ‘they’ are ‘us’. ‘Cuz I sure am!

    86: STL_MO: “could you allow authors to correct spelling mistakes or other minor errors after they’re published.” – well thats an age old question, but in truth where would it end? You could rewrite a list so many times to outsmart jestful comments that eventually non of the comments would make sense. You could also add to your own list until the cows come home – and have it 20 pages long – or even remove it completely without J’s awareness. He’s usually pretty approachable by email though; when he’s not worrying himself half to death…

  • Lifeschool

    92: Jfrater: – “I deleted the two posts from the weekend due to the comments.” – oops, guilty :( I really hope you redo the Emerson list – great guy.

  • bigski

    A great list very imformative and hard work was put into it.

  • jhm27

    Good list but bad title. Who is “us” referring to? I’m sure that not all readers are considered “us” as in the winners of the war.

  • STL Mo

    Lifeschool – thanks, I’ll do that next time instead of bugging jf in the comments :)

  • downhighway60

    Hitler kinda looks like Jesus

  • General Tits Von Chodehoffen

    Interesting list. I think Hitler attacking Stalin lost him the war personally.

  • bigski

    Us means the good guys. Us don`t mean Germany,Italy or Japan. Got it.

  • Nicosia

    I liked that Emerson list a lot- the other one was just kinda “bleh” No offense to the writer ;)
    Tex- Are you a pilot? I am a pilot-in-training :) I fly little Cessnas right now.

  • Mom424

    Excellent list STL mo. Well written, researched and presented. Cool topic too.

    jhm27 – I would wager that German folk would consider themselves as “us” today. They too revel in their freedoms – something they would not enjoy under Hitler. Did you read that part of the reason the German war machine did not have the bomb was due to intentional lollygagging?

  • patrick

    who is hitler

  • Nicosia

    Patrick- I hope you are kidding!

  • patrick

    my history teacher told me that he was the king of germany. i dont think 9th graders are supposed to know this stuff yet

  • oouchan

    109. patrick: Wow…your teacher is scaring me. It should have been learned about now anyway, but to say the ‘King of Germany’? He was a dictator, not a king. (btw, it’s nothing against you…just your teacher) :)

  • diogenes

    Is there, by chance, a patch of blue sky still left for commenter badlist?

    This wont make any sense in a number of days from now, but
    the view of “the bomb” (as it is being referred to here) above Jim Morrison’s head on the home page would have made a lovely album (front/back) cover (titled: This is the beginning of The End). If only he were still with us and the threat of total annihilation
    had passed momentarily with a lull.

    Inventions of WAR have always been more a backburning curiosity of concern and awe.
    Blowing up G.I. Joes with firecrackers, snowball fighting, gluing together plastic models of fighter planes and aircraft carries, torturing animals and insects, playing with gasoline, spending my time in the ninja shop at the mall—was simply not enough for me, as a little girl, to want to join the army at 18. I am now aware that I was not man enough as a child and that controlling my innocent hostilities will not exasperate creative potential. but I was wrong.

    War as an art form of ingenuity.
    Da Vinci, Sun Tzu, M.I.T.?

    So sorry, I am just making random comments from off the top of my head. I haven’t any knowledge of what is taking place here, so the list becomes informative in a way..I like the footage too.
    Being currently informed and having a historical knowledge is a way out of and into the bedlam of the mind.
    or just the way of PROGRESS.

    this is all a little beyond understanding, isn’t it?

    what does “%#[email protected]! 88s.” mean?

    The Intrepid was stuck in the mud from sitting so long as a historical warship for tourist gain.
    dot dot dot dash dash dash dot dot dot.

    I have to stop doing this.
    my days are numbered.

    *note to self: concerning non scholarly brain vicissitudes of the hardware of hardwar within comments on the worldwideweb- Add this one, by commenter diogenes, to the slurry mix within the witches cauldron (that has been dumped out of the cave for bitter yet harmless poison).

    Interesting list STL Mo!

  • patrick

    what is a dictator

  • Jim C

    Patrick is just trolling.

    /ignore

  • oouchan

    112. patrick: Now, I don’t know if you are messing around here or not, but I will answer your question. From dictionary.com:

    dictator: a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.

    Hope that helps.

  • VikingBerserker

    I believe the ME-209 held the speed record before the start of the war, and was not borken until the US F8F Bearcat

    “The History of Aviation” by Robert Jackson.

  • GTT

    downhighway60 (102):

    ??? Now, I´m a little surprised because your comments are not usually troll-ish in nature so I´ll give you the benfit of the doubt… What were you trying to accomplish with that comment?

    *****

    oouchan :

    I´m pretty sure patrick is a troll. Ignore him, they´ll never go away if you keep answering them… :)

  • oouchan

    116. GTT: I kinda figured, but wanted to give the benefit of the doubt…just in case. ;)

  • Deziner

    Thank you for this list STL Mo., for although my interest in the specifics of military weaponry is not too great, your list allowed me to help educate my teens more about WWII.

    Living in the U.S. is a blessing in many ways, but in the light of today’s public school shortcomings, I fear today’s children will not recognize the reality of the horrors of that war.

    It doesn’t help U.S. kids to understand those horrors, since there are no physical battle sites and memorials for the kids to have as a physical reference. (Other than Pearl Harbor, and the handful of national sculpture/memorials that aren’t part of most of our kids daily lives.)

    Your list helped me open a dialogue with my kids about what our lives might be like if Hitler had won that long ago (for teens) war. Thanks.

  • gabi319

    118. Deziner – It doesn’t help U.S. kids to understand those horrors, since there are no physical battle sites and memorials…

    Depends on where you are. Aside from some well done memorials and museums in DC (and Arlington Nat’l Cemetary), there’s Gettysburg and Bull Run that I can think of off the top of my head. There are frequent reenactments done in Bull Run but I agree with you regarding the inability to fully convey the horrors of war. These reenactments tend to romanticize the battles rather than portray the bad along with the good.

  • gabi319

    I wanted to add some memorials specifically geared towards WWII but googling’s no help. Giving that up now. Sorry Deziner!

  • Klingon

    I think “Us” is referring to the allies as this author is probably American. I for one am very happy that the Allies won the war :)

  • smithstar15

    This list is very accurate although I may have put the V2 rocket at #1–If Germany had held on another year or so,there’s no telling what this weapon would have evolved into under Werner Von Braun.I do know that if he had not been brought to the United States,we would not have put a man on the moon by 1969.

  • Mabel

    Cool list…a little scary!

  • Lifeschool

    122: smithstar15 – I agree that the V2 could have swung the odds, but they had the technology to use those devices way before the end of the war. Perhaps Hitlers plan was to bombard cities until the allies somehow gave up to save their citizens. But just as the list goes on to say, bombing citizens never seems to make much difference to military operations; as the bombing may only serve to strengthen the resolve of their commanders to fight harder. It baffles me why – given that these v2 weapons could be set on any target – that Hitler didn’t use them to knock out military strongholds instead of taking days to plan tank and infantry attacks. Still, they do say the pressure got to him in the end…

  • Looser

    good list. but one thing, none technology, could really have cost us the war. If hitler hadn’t been too land hungry and went after russia he probably would’ve won. although none of these items could have hurt his odds either.

  • Lifeschool

    103: GVT: “I think Hitler attacking Stalin lost him the war personally.” I agree. Hitler banked on a quick capture of the empire before the vast Russian army (which was spread out accross the country) managed to get together and form an attack. Hitler knew that once this happened, there was no way to stop them, and feared Stalin was going to mount such an attack inevitably given enough time (Stalin had been sending messages to the allies, so trying to ‘turn’ him was out of the question). Hitler also saw it as his best chance to strike and capture the sleeping Russia and gain a solid Eastern position. Unfortunately for him, he fell short; reaching too far too soon, and the Russian Winter (and outposts such as Stalingrad) bogged down and finished off his chances of maintaining a Western front. Scholars often site this as Hitlers biggest mistake, but if Hitler were around today – sunning himself and sipping piña coladas in Argentina – he’d probably argue that at that stage in the war, he was already trapped between a huge looming rock and a very hard place. He chose the latter….

  • Talanic

    Oh, you’re assuming Hitler was thinking more rationally than history shows.

    He was – at times – a raving lunatic. Particularly concerning Russia. A large part of his doctrine of racial superiority insisted that Aryans were naturally superior to Russians. He believed that his side would win, because numbers didn’t matter; in his addled head, every German soldier was worth fifty Russians.

    There was no strategy behind Hitler’s invasion of Russia except that he thought that he COULD NOT lose. His plan was mankind’s DESTINY: Aryans would subjugate all lesser races and be the sole power on the planet.

    In fact, if you go back to Mein Kampf, you’ll see that he had the plan of invading Russia down on paper well before he came into power.

  • k1w1taxi

    1. jeremy.
    Please, before attempting to make any more comments on anything political at least become sufficiently versed as to know what system your country uses. Sounds like MMP to me.
    2. diogenes (assuming that is not some id thief)
    the drugs OR Listverse huh?

    3.deziner 118.
    I wonder how much is the built in sense of security of having not been invaded since 1812 and hence lack of cemeteries/memorials to the scale of either WW OR the impact of Hollywood and the game makers in glorifying violence. Even those films that supposedly do not ‘glory’ in war still seem to have the really cool slo mo shots of the bullets ripping ripping into flesh etc.

    4. Nice list STL Mo

    cheers
    Lee

  • timmy the dying boy

    The Heinkel 219 was an awesome machine, and while the numbers may have been exaggerated, it was still the only plane in the Luftwaffe that could catch a Mosquito (another awesome machine btw) at night.

    As for the Graf Zeppelin, she would never had made it out of the North Sea, and they knew it.

    Sorry, the P-51 was no match for the 262 in the open sky. They only scored by hanging around the airfields and bouncing the 262s as they came in to land.

  • illegal_immigrant

    What about the Metal Gear project? Wait, oh…

  • bigski

    #129- Timmy- I have to question your third statement.

    If you look at the record of who killed who the most in the battle of these two aircraft,theres no match. The P-51 killed them taking off and landing. So open sky didn`t matter plus aerial tactics weren`t evolved for speeds of the German jet.

    They were pretty kickass aircraft for there time though.

  • Eugene

    Hitler had Parkinses (sp) disease and terciary syphyllis. His brain was full of holes. Literally. Swiss chese.

  • General Tits Von Chodehoffen

    125 looser- You know whats up. If Hitler didnt go after Stalin he would have been in power for a buttload of time.

  • scandal007

    Top 10 Weapons That Could Have Lost Us The War…..but didn’t. YAY!

  • manicd

    It makes my heart sing to see something like this take place.

    A list is put forward with a certain postulate. People have a look, research and form their own conclusions. They disagree, they argue and everyone is better for it.

    The scientific method is alive and well!

  • Shagrat

    STL Mo: You sell the Germans VERY short by listing only 10!

    There were many others:

    The Me262 was only one of 12 active Jet-powered (or rocket-powered fighters, bombers & fighter-bombers on active service with the Luftwaffe by May ’45. The others were:
    Arado Ar234 Blitz (bomber)- the 2-engine & the 4-engine versions
    Bachem Ba349 Natter (fighter)
    Feisler Fi 103R (manned V1)
    Focke Wulf Ta183 Huckbein (fighter)
    Heinkel He178 (fighter)
    Heinkel He162 Volksjager aka Salamander (fighter) – the Salamander also spawned a second version; the He162D which had a V-tail and forward-swept wings. It was faster and even more manouvreable than its “parent”
    Heinkel He280 (fighter)
    Henschel Hs132 – (fighter): very similar to the Salamander
    Horton Ho IX: aka Gotha Go229 – (Flying Wing Bomber) – due to go into operation but failed to do so due to Germany’s surrender. Developed by and went into use with the USAAF
    Junkers Ju287 – (fighter-bomber) same fate as the Horton – but developed and went into service with the USSR
    Messerschmitt 163 – Rocket-propelled Fighter

    On top of these 11, the Germans had no less than 140 other jet fighters on the drawing boards of various aviation companies building for the Reich. These were:

    – 11 Arado
    – 17 Blohm und Voss
    – 2 BMW
    – 2 Daimler Benz
    – Dornier
    – 18 Focke Wulf + 1 VTOL
    – 4 Gotha
    – 10 Heinkel
    – 4 Henschel
    – 17 Lippisch
    – 34 Messerschmitt
    – 8 Junkers

    + 14 ‘other makes including one Ramjet-powered craft and one Rocket-fuelled Amerika Bomber

    There were also at least 28 Bombers:

    Arado – 3: all jet-powered
    Blohm und Voss – 3
    BMW -4
    Dornier – Long Range Flying Boat/Bomber
    Focke Wulf – 3 Long Range & 1 Strategic
    Heinkel – 3 strategic & 1 Long Range
    Horten – 4 all Flying Wings – long-range bombers
    Junkers – 4 Long Range including 1 Jet-powered L/R bomber

    Add to these the fact that on no less than two occasions a Junkers Ju-390 was despatched from Germany to fly to New York as test flights. They flew the round-trips non-stop and turned back only 15 miles from the Manhattan shoreline (the US radar only reached out 12 miles or so at the time and they turned back because even if they were detected, no fighter could catch them chasing from behind.

    A further weapon you failed to mention – and one which would have proved to be far more destructive and devastating than V1 & 2 combined was the little-known V3. This was a bank of artillery barrels buried in the chalk at Mimoyeques (France) and aimed at London. There were 15 barrels arranged in three rows of 5. Each was 500-feet long and could fire a 5-ton shell and could, at operational efficiency, fire a shot every 3 to 4 minutes. Moreover, the shells were a slow-burning-fuse variety which meant, unlike the massive barrels of WW1 – these would not quickly burn out. Has they become operational, they could have shelled London and the Invasion Ports at such a rate that London alone would have received more high explosive dropped on it in under a week than both Germany AND Britain ultimately endured over the entire conflict COMBINED.

  • STL Mo

    Shagrat – interesting list, and I am aware of many of those things, but you sell ME short. Read the introduction, where you’ll see that this list (except for #10) primarily concerns weapons systems that were either put into actual production or were built and tested in the prototype stage. I almost included the He-163 and the Arado jet bomber but left them off in favor of the 262. And the rocket-powered Me-163 was a novelty and not at all a useful weapons system, unlike the 262.

    Also, I thought it was understood, but I guess not, that I pretty well covered each type of primary weapons system.

    You list of stuff is interesting, and would make an intriguing list of German weapons systems that never made it off the drawing boards.

  • osbern

    Just a personal anecdote: I grew up in a tiny, tiny village in the far west of Germany that nobody has ever heard of. But in our local woods the remains of a concrete foundation can be seen: this was the place where the V2 was launched. My grandma always tells stories about how the Nazis hid the thing (it must have been rather large) right in their frontyard under tall trees when Allied bombers flew over (which they frequently did). My great-grandmother, who must have been a scary person judging by her photograph, got into trouble when she tried to drive them away.

  • STL Mo

    #115 – If I recall correctly, the Me-209 set the absolute speed record before the war, whereas the He-100 set the average speed record. I’ll look it up.

  • downhighway61

    GTT- I didn’t post that.
    I’m DH61, not 60. No idea why someone would want to imitate my name of all people.
    Don’t lose faith in me yet!

  • slipstick

    I would’ve thought that the Type XXI subs would’ve been higher on the list. Let’s face it, all the others of that time, regardless of side, were submersibles. The Type XXI was the first true submarine.

  • GTT

    downhighway61 (140):

    There it is! I knew I was missing something!! Darn ID thiefs out to confuse people by changing just one number! :)

  • smithstar15

    Lifeschool–I agree

  • Forrest Greene

    Even though he was a Nazi and all, I enjoyed Dieterle’s joyous cartwheel as he left the plane after his record flight of the HE-100 in number eight.

  • whoopee

    never mind all that shit.

    what did travis say?

  • evan

    -“In trained hands, the StG-44 could lay down a devastating hail of 7.92mm bullets (the same as used by the Kar98), and provided the power of the Kar98 and up-close versatility of the MP-40.”

    well not exactly, the StG fires the 7.92x33mm Kurz (short) round while the Kar98 fires 7.92x57mm IS. Basically a shorted, less powerful intermediate cartridge. Think more powerful than a pistol cartridge but not as powerful as a rifle cartridge, similar to the AK-47/SKS round (7.62x39mm as opposed to the full sized Russian 7.62x54R round)

  • STL Mo

    Thanks, evan. I’m not a firearms expert and was going on what I had intitially read.

  • bigski

    I wouldn`t want to be on the receiving end of either gun thankyou.

  • Paul

    The P-51 was no match for the Me262, The P51D which was the variant used against the Me262 had a top speed of 441mph

    http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustangtest.html

    The Me 262 could fly well in excess of 500mph

    http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Flying_the_Me-262.html

  • Shagrat

    STL Mo – point well taken. However, I feel you are being overly harsh in labelling the Me163 as “a novelty and not at all a useful weapons system, unlike the 262”

    The 163 was more than just a novelty, flew several hundred intercept ‘sorties’ and were horribly feared by the bomber crews. The basic reason was that they didn’t “fly” as such as a conventional propellor or jert fighter did. They were an incredibly fast “bypass assault” on the vertical and then a 5 – 10 minute rocket-assisted glide-attack through a bomber stream utilising automatic cannon – shells 20-30mm across!

    As for pre-war speed records; was not the Supermarine the fastest – given that the majority of these planes were tested in that most prestigious of air competitions; the Schneider Trophy – and they had to be a seaplane configuration to enter that – a much slower format than a pure fighter.

    As for the Me262 versus the P-51; these are the best figures I could locate:
    Top speed for the Me262 (in a dive) was recorded at 559 mph; or 900 kph
    The P-51 Mustang on the other hand defveloped rapidly over its life and with alterations increased its speed dramatically: especially after the troublesome Allison engine was replaced with varying types of Rolls Royce Merlins: In the latter format, one of the fastest formats was the P-51H which achieved a very creditable 485 mph; or 780 kph, IN LEVEL FLIGHT at 25,000 ft (7,600 m).

    An interesting anecdote I read many years ago relates the encounter that established that the 262 (long-anticipated feared by the Allies) was finally operational. The story was by a pilot flying a reconnaissance mission in a de Havilland Mosquito over Germany. Two previous reconnaissance missions to the area resulted in non-returns by either plane or pilot: Air Command figured they’d been shot down by flack or ambushed by fighters: this guy was truly a case of ‘third time lucky’. The pilot radioed he had an unidentifiable twin-engined aircraft in his mirrors and advised he was going to “hit the button” to outrun and evade it. He “put his foot down”, so to speak and was stunned when the damn thing not only CAUGHT him and fires its cannon at him, but then circled around a few more times trying to put a few more shots into the ‘Mozzie’!!! The piulot ultimately lost the ‘strange aircraft’ only when he managed to dive into a large bank of handy cloud and the ‘German aircraft’ lost him!
    It was on return to his airfield and after he was debriefed that the ‘brass’ realised their worst fears had come true – the German Jet was finally ‘in the air’ and shooting down its fastest craft.

    I think the anecdote was recorded in a readers Digest Volume called “Secrets and Stories of the War”: if not, it was in one of the many books I’ve owned over the years.

  • VikingBerserker

    #136
    Heinkel He178: was never fitted with guns and was strictly a research aircraft and placed in a museum in 1943,
    Heinkel He280: Was passed over for the ME 262 and was not in service in 1945
    Henschel Hs132: Had not even flown by war’s end.
    Focke Wulf Ta183: Also had not flown by war’s end.

    The V-3 fired 150mm shells.

    #150 ME-163 they also lost more aircraft from accidents then combat and JG400 the only operational unit was only credited with shooting down 9 planes. The plane was not a resounding success.

  • Anderi

    I’ve come to the conclusion that Jajdude is either a sociology professor or some other such highly educated genius… And he’s just fucking with us!…

    Kudos Dr Jajdude. Kudos.

  • Paul

    Shagrat

    The P-51H was a lightened version of the P-51D developed after the war and never saw service against the Me 262.

  • Randall

    Shagrat, others:

    Okay, it falls upon me to settle this ridiculous debate.

    The ME163 “Komet” was a lousy plane that required extraordinarily skilled pilots to use it properly—and all too often those pilots ended up dead. It was little better than a manned projectile with control surfaces, and while remarkably fast, it could stay in the air only a short time before running out of fuel. Once it was in glide mode, it was easy prey to whatever Allied fighter happened to be around to pick it off. An innovative, but in the end stupid, weapon.

    The ME262 was of course far better as a workable aircraft, but it had great flaws throughout its service time: A) the engines invariably had a tendency to catch fire; B) they also gulped fuel, which was rare and growing rarer every day in the Reich; C) Hitler had stupidly insisted that the plane be equipped to carry bombs, which made it heavier and slightly slower; and D) it was often flown by inexperienced pilots (most experienced pilots had been killed or captured by this time).

    It was, it’s true, faster than the P51, but speed is not the only measure of a fighter plane’s quality (though it’s a primary one). There were instances where the P51 was more maneuverable, and certainly in the hands of a more capable pilot, it was able to overcome the jet. The fact is that more ME262’s fell to P51’s than vice versa, and while, yes, it’s a bit of a stretch to call the Mustang a MATCH for the ME262, it’s nevertheless a fact that under the right circumstances and with a good pilot flying the P51, it could take on the jet with more than a reasonable chance of being victorious. The real experience in WWII bears this out.

    Now yes, true, had the ME262 come into service earlier, and been allowed to be developed strictly as a fighter–and if its bugs had been worked–and if it had been flown by more capable pilots–and built in sufficient numbers–a LOT of “ifs”–it would have overwhelmed, eventually, all Allied opposition and made the war bloodier and longer.

    Would it have won the war for Germany? Unlikely. German inventiveness was not, in fact, actually superior to that of the Allies—it was, more accurately, born out of desperation. British and American jet experiments were actually proceeding apace during the war (remember, the British had the FIRST operational jet aircraft, the Gloucester Meteor) and had the *necessity* been there, an earlier version of the ME262 would have soon found opponents in the air that could challenge it.

    The simple answer is that in an even match, with two skilled pilots, it was NOT a foregone conclusion that the ME262 would beat the Mustang. By the same token, neither was the jet a pushover for the P51 by any means.

  • Lifeschool

    RE: Hitlers dive bombing tactics. Having looked into his tactics, it appears Hitler saw war on three levels, the air war, the ground war, and the sea war. He figured the air war was the most important as by gaining air superiority he could fly planes to bomb any target on land or sea. Rather than let the ‘enemy’ gather their forces on the battlefield, he enthused that divebombing the ‘enemy’ on the WAY to the battlefield was the best line of defence; to soften ’em up and cause road blocks. He also liked to dive bomb bridges, roads, and towns where the ‘enemy’ may be hiding, and precision bomb prime targets from low levels rather than fly very high and randomly drop a payload (in the gound war that is, not the civilian war). Divebombers not only had the means to locate advancing forces, but also had the clout to take out the camps and bases while still on location, rather than fly back and report – by which time the camp or base may have moved or been removed altogether. Mainland Europe didn’t have radar at that time, so dive bombing was effective on most Theatre targets not protected by anti-aircraft batteries.

    Today, now that Radar and missiles are very accurate, dive bombing becomes next to useless in that by the time a plane gets anywhere near a target, ground-to-air missiles have already shot it down. Warfair is more about power and technology now rather than strategic versitility – which seems a shame.

  • Jim C

    Shagrat,

    Your list is full of anecdotal trivia, but very short on useful facts.

    The Ju390 flight to New York you mentioned never happened – it’s just not possible. The great circle distance alone is beyond even the claimed range of the plane, and it would have had to add almost 600 miles to go around New England instead of over it.

    The V-3 was never built, let alone fired. With the exception of #10, every other weapon in this list was actually built. Also, a weapon that cannot be aimed is not a very useful weapon.

    Also, just listing a bunch of rocket and jet-powered aircraft doesn’t help. Very few of those went beyond the test phase and fewer were deployed – mainly because they weren’t very successful weapons platforms.

    For example, you list the He-162 as a weapon that could have lost us the war – without mentioning that it had a THIRTY MINUTE endurance. Not very useful!

    Horton Ho IX? The sum total of powered flight for all versions ever built was two hours. Not exactly a proven weapon.

    Many of the other fighters? Canceled in favor of the Me262, which is discussed above.

    The list is titled “Weapons that could have lost us the war,” not “cool planes that look good on a paper napkin but are operationally useless.”

  • Maggot

    155 Lifeschool: Warfair is more about power and technology now rather than strategic versitility – which seems a shame.

    I might be misinterpreting your phrasing, but you seem to say that as if war is a game. “Takes the fun out of it”…?

  • Steelman

    For those commenting about Bush being a warmonger, you’d be wise to remember that Reagan was vilified during his tenure and soon after as well. Now, he is regarded as one of the five best Presidents ever.

    You should also notice that Obama is maintaining many of the items that Bush was heavily critized for, such as wiretapping, Gitmo, torture, etc. Obama is maintaining all of these and expanding presence in Afganistan. Quite hypocritical, but what’s to expect from the left.

    Though I have my issues with Bush as well, just watch. In about 10-20 years, he will be remembered differently, especially in keeping us safe for 8 years.

  • VikingBerserker

    #156 – From Oslo Norway to NYC is only 1,267 miles one way. The FW 200 had a ferrying range of 2,759 miles, the JU 290 had a max range of 3,822 miles, and the HE 177 had a max range of 3,418 miles so it quite conceivable that the JU-390 flight could have occured.

    It’s been well documentated that the V-3 was built and fired, it however was 150mm of around 80lbs and not the 5 tons that was been suggested. In 1944 the first of the guns located in Misdroy achieved a max range of 59 miles before it blow up.

  • gabi319

    159. VikingBerserker – “From Oslo Norway to NYC is only 1,267 miles one way.”

    Fact check: Oslo, Norway to New York City is a distance of 3676 miles or 5196 km.

    carry on…

  • 762

    “the StG-44 could lay down a devastating hail of 7.92mm bullets (the same as used by the Kar98)”

    Correction, it did NOT use the same cartridge; although it was a variation of it. The Kar98 took a full size 7.92x57mm Mauser rifle cartridge, the StG-44 took the “7.92 kurz” (kurz means short i think) which was basically the same cartridge only shortened to 7.92×33.

    So, like the AK it was an intermediate cardrige, in between the rifle and SMG.

  • Ronin_sam

    U missed the greatest weapon of them all George Bush and to an extent John Rambo.(he’ll give u a war u’ll never believe)

  • BazfromOz

    Might I suggest another quite different aircraft for the list? Although it was piston engined and under test when the war ended, it outperformed the P51 variants in ALL aspects, as was discovered after the war when P51s were detailed to escort one of the captured aircraft: The Dornier 335

  • Shagrat

    JIM C #156 – The Ju-390 flights DID happen – check your facts. Since research is the mother of enlightenment I shall not point you in the direction of the authoritative texts I own ehich list the flights by date – find it yourself.
    The V-3 barrels at Mimoyeques: learn to read. I never SAID they were fired – they WERE, however, built. The slab protecting them from aerial attack was broken up and the shafts destroyed by 617 Squadron (The original Dambusters – as opposed to the American usurpers of the title) – in a ‘Tallboy’-armed attack. That same attack also buried several hundred soldiers, engineers and workers alive – none of whom ever got out!

    VIKINGBERSERKER #151: As for Jim C – each aircraft I mentioned flew at least ONE sortie – intentional or otherwise is irrelevant and the one by the 1789 WAS flown with weaponry – 1945: you find the date(s) and action(s)!
    As for the ‘Komet’ – I know they lost more to accidents than what they shot down. I never said they were in any real measure, effective. What I DID say – provided you can actually READ and not just assume what you have seen – was that the bomber pilots were terrified of them because they didn’t ACT like a CONVENTIONAL aircraft! As a scare tactic they were brilliant – imagine if the Germans had developed it and ironed out the kinks earlier! BTW and FYI – the Me262 also suffered a disproportionate accident rate either in-fligght be pilots untried in such incredibly quick craft – or on landing. At least ONE major ‘ace’ was killed in a landing ‘mishap’.

    PAUL #153 At least ONE person on this list has the inteligence to make a relevant remark which is NOT based on misinterpreting something which was said previously!

    Yo are, in fact, correct – the ‘H’ WAS a lighter ‘stripped down’ version of the D (the most famous of the 51’s and one I have seen in flight over Duxford in a mock fly-off/dogfight against a P-40 Warhawk: it DESTROYED it and flew circles around it).
    However – I didn’t actually say IT and the Schwalbe ever flew against each other I simnply compared top speeds and HOW they achieved it: maybe I was at fault in that I probably should have ended with a speculation based on their flying against one another at somewhere above ‘Angels 20’ in level flight?!!

    Finally:

    RANDALL #154 – You arrogant, pin-headed moron. Who ASKED you to settle this or ANY frickin argument? Who elected YOU the almanac of everything aeronautical as developed and flown by Nazi Germany?
    Take a day off from your ego and try accepting that others just MIGHT have access to information which is NOT at your disposal. Unless you are an authority on German Aircraft of World War 2 or even a Military History expert; just shut the F**k up.
    BTW – by way of interest; I have a close friend (an American) who just happens to BE both a PhD in Military History and who has written several very pertinent texts on Miltary Aircraft which are considered required reading by genuine historians: I have all those he has written including his latest which is yet to be released. His intials are JKF!

    Next time – don’t bring a comic-book to a ‘fact fight’!

  • Randall

    Shagrat:

    You know, I made the attempt to make nice with you, but since you insist on being a prick about this (why, one wonders–does any of this nonsense matter? It’s like Trekkies arguing over who would win in a fight, the Klingons or the Federation) I’m forced to answer in kind.

    A) I could, of course, present the same question back to you: What gives YOU the right to sound off like a gigantic blowhard about “everything aeronautical” in regards to Nazi Germany? Who the hell are you?

    B) I see no reason why I should “shut the f**k up” simply on YOUR say so. In fact, being told to “shut the f**k up” by some loudmouthed asshole on the internet tends to rankle me quite a bit and make me all argumentative. Always try the carrot first, Shagrat, THEN the stick. It’s worth the effort sometimes.

    C) Neither do I feel the need to justify my credentials to the likes of you. As we’ve all realized here in the past, any damn jerk with an axe to grind can make up any kind of credential or claim for themselves that they wish. In point of fact, however, I DO possess a professional credential in regards to History, and my father was himself a combat pilot in WWII. So you see, I do know something or other about the subject we’re addressing here.

    D) When it comes to “comic books” you quite frankly have taken the cake, so let’s not cast disparaging remarks when your own facts are so terribly shaky.

    But let’s not bicker on silly details, because it could go on all day. My post was written to solely address the arguing going on in regards to the Komet and the ME 262, the only rocket and jet propelled aircraft that the Nazis ever actually fielded in the fight that MATTERED. (a lot of experimental aircraft–some of which never even got off the drawing board–are not pertinent to the discussion at hand. We could use the same logic you’re using and go back and say that Leonardo Da Vinci ALMOST gave to his patrons relatively advanced tank technology and flight capabilities via airfoil AND helicopter design. With these, all of Europe could have been conquered. Sure, maybe so. But it never actually HAPPENED. Da Vinci’s designs never really got off the drawing board. And in many instances, neither did the Nazi devices, craft, and weapons that YOU cited).

    Now, as I was saying, my purpose was to address the arguing going on about the Komet and ME 262. And I addressed them. As I said—was the Mustang a “match” for the ME 262? Not exactly, no. But UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES it COULD be, given the various handicaps with which the ME 262 was hampered. The Komet was even worse–a near pointless weapon that managed to inflict some casualties but never even came close to turning the tide of the war.

    I fail to see what irked you so in these assertions. They’re based quite simply on the FACTUAL circumstances that ACTUALLY prevailed during the latter period of the war–namely, that both the Komet and the ME 262 were reduced to being ineffective weapons despite the innovative prescience of design which they represented–and that they therefore did NOTHING to alter the end result of the war–which is that Nazi Germany lost. Had, yes, the Nazis possessed these weapons two years earlier, the conflict would have been far bloodier and longer. Further, if they had developed even some of the other designs you cite, in numbers, then the outcome of the war may even have been in question. BUT THEY DIDN’T. In fact, they never even came close.

    The bottom line is, you’ve presented a lot of trivia and anecdotal ramblings with an apparent desire to lend yourself gravitas by doing so. But your statements are akin to the old saw about angels on pinheads. And your defensive bluster in the face of my challenge shows that you’re THAT close to the edge on all this, and you know it. Your intense dislike for being challenged shows, like all blowhards who like to ACT like they know it all because it makes them feel important.

  • cymraegbachgen87

    I find it comical that this shagrat refuses to cite his references because “search is the mother of enlightenment”

    That argument holds no water in academic circles. Why should it here. If you wont give your references, how do we know they are genuine, or accurate – just on your say so? I think not.

    I’m not going to get involved in the historical wrankling – history is not my cup of tea past 1500 or so. But this is ridiculous.

    Shagrat – cite your sources
    Randall – breathe. :)

    Spitfire FTW!

  • cymraegbachgen87

    * that quote should read “research” not search. Damn mouse.

  • Cybogen

    Showtime! Damm the debates are good when they start with these discussions. Now let see here…. Randall fired last so I guess its SHAGRATs turn again.

  • cymraegbachgen87

    158 Steelman.

    “Though I have my issues with Bush as well, just watch. In about 10-20 years, he will be remembered differently, especially in keeping us safe for 8 years.”

    Kept you safe? What? He was president during the worst terror attacks in US history! He sends you into a war for oil getting US and British troops killed under false pretences.

    Afghanistan is an international problem. Saying we should ignore it (as you are implying) is daft.

    Obama is closing down G.bay, and re-writing the CIA handbook on interrogation procedure. Factcheck – How does that tally with him condoning torture and maintaining the bush era?

    I doubt this man will be remembered as a hero or anything other than a lacklustre president. The world rejoices now that obama is in the white house.

  • cymraegbachgen87

    (Not to mention the fallout from katrina!)

  • Randall

    Shagrat:

    And another thing, which I missed earlier and only just now caught in re-reading your repeated ravings.

    IN FACT, NO… there is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that ANY Nazi aircraft ever made a successful long-range flight to the east coast of the United States. For one who is so ready to refer to the knowledge of others as “comic book,” YOUR knowledge, once again, reads exactly like that which one would expect to find in some old copy of “G8 and His Battle Aces.”

    In point of fact, there were numerous claims of such a flight(s) but there has never been ONE SINGLE SCRAP of evidence to prove that they ever occurred. And, in fact, as Jim C pointed out (quite correctly) such a flight would have been HIGHLY doubtful of success and was actually nigh on impossible.

    In fact, I find much more sense in what Jim C wrote than any of the “facts” you have blurted out and tried to pass off as true. He’s correct on the Horten, the HE 162 AND the V-3.

    Clearly you’re one of these rabid believe-anything nuts who thinks because a claim was made or a project existed on paper and was rumored to have been built and flown, then it must have happened. I’m surprised we didn’t hear about Nazi UFO’s from you next… but maybe you already brought those up—I haven’t had time (and have had less inclination) to go back and read every post you’ve offered up here.

    Before you go dissing others on their knowledge of history, I strongly suggest you clean up your own yard first and make sure you’ve got your story straight. All you’ve repeated here are rumors, innuendo and tall tales of the aviation variety. I could sit here and say that there definitely IS a hypersonic “Aurora” spy plane in the American arsenal, which is a popular rumor/conspiracy theory that’s made the rounds for years now—but in fact there isn’t a shred of evidence to really back up the existence of such an aircraft. Nevertheless people go around *claiming* that it exists every day. Your claims here, for the most part, are tantamount to the same thing.

  • GTT

    gabi319 (160):

    Fact check… See, this is why I like you. You´re all quite and then come in with a correction on one little fact. :)

    Carry on…

  • gabi319

    172. GTT – “gabi319 (160): Fact check… See, this is why I like you. You´re all quite and then come in with a correction on one little fact. :)”
    I’ll whisper a little secret. I’m quiet because for once I have nothing to say! Give me some paintbrushes and canvas or a science topic or if I’m hungry for troll, some idiot stupid enough to get in my sightline… I can discuss those fairly well. But planes and warfare and machinery? Better to watch the conversation and learn from them rather than spew crap I know I can’t back up.

    and thank you for remembering to take care of my ego

    I do try to understand my fair share of US politics but it’s much more interesting to watch and very aggravating to participate. There were a good couple of days I purposefully placed an LV ban on myself because of a string of political lists and more aggravatingly, a string of political list comment boards!

    169. cymraegbachgen87 – “The world rejoices now that obama is in the white house.”
    Just remember to keep a realistic and objective view on it all. Just as I yell at people that it’s too soon to criticize his whole term, it’s too soon to glorify it as well.

    carry on…

  • GTT

    173. gabi319:

    HA! See, I do remember! ;)

    And you´re right… I´m sitting here seriously considering compiling a summary of all the different types of guns and planes because I know they´ll just end up all confused in my head. Not my thing but interesting to read.

    Plus, it´s always fun when Randall gets fired up! :)

  • sylvain

    WELL I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOUR COMMENTS BUT IMAGINE IF WE WERE SITTING ON OUR ASSES AND WATCHING TV WITH A BEER AND WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING !!!!! OR IMAGINE IF WE ALL HAD FREAKIN SLINGSHOT TO DEFEND AGAINST ANOTHER COUNTRY LIKE EX : KOREA or IRAN or maybe JAPAN !!!!!
    Anyways nothing really intelligent to say ,like most of your comments !!!!!!!!!
    over & out ……..

  • k1w1taxi

    cymraegbachgen87 (169)

    Do you always bite so well :) He’s just a troll

    Cheers
    Lee

  • Shrug

    One small point; you state that had the V-2 been turned against military installations it would have been cheaper than sending in fighters and bombers; this is only partially true.

    A single V-2 unit (missile only, not the launching apparatus) cost as much to construct as a four-engined long-range bomber, and required a larger crew to maintain and operate. Construction also required vast quantities of unusual compounds (potassium permanganate for example) that, while not uncommon, were more troublesome to procure in quantity than aviation materials.

    While a bomber could be reasonably expected to return and used again, the V-2 was (obviously) a one-shot deal that almost unavoidably consumed more military resources than it could reasonably be expected to destroy with a limited payload.

    While the value of striking heavily defended/otherwise inaccessible facilities would be undeniable, the (over)use of the V-2 is proposed by some historians as a contributing factor to the eventual Allied victory; had such efforts been directed into reinforcement of the Luftwaffe or development of jet aircraft, the war would certainly have gone rather differently, at least in Europe.

  • the fifth element

    in reference to comment 13. the nazi’s had wanted to build an atomic bomb. but their project was a hoax meant to keep the pressure on the U.S. they had all the elements needed for it the only problem was that they were still trying to find a viable way to make one that was usable.

  • Mighty mite

    Thank god for Colonel Hogan and the crew at Stalag 13!!

  • Da

    most of Germany’s so called super weapons were plagued with serious design flaws and resulted in them being unusable. the development of new designs takes about 100 times the effort of modifying existing designs. the American F80 fighter was 250 km/hr faster than the Me 262 and it went into service in January 1945 (45 were built before May 1945). the F80 was a very reliable plane, with a production run 5691. the half of the 1100 ME262s built were lost taking off or landing as well as its engine had only 40% of the F80s power. the Luftwaffe couldn’t maintain its piston powered aircraft after Dec 1944 let alone jet engined aircraft.

  • teuton

    Good list, I guess it’s a good thing these weapons were never mass produced. I should point out though there is a slight error about the Me-262: although it wasn’t more maneuverable than a Mustang (or most late-war fighters), it was over 100mph faster than anything else in the air, including the Mustang. If I remember correctly most 262’s were shot down while landing because they were very vulnerable then. The engines weren’t well built so increasing/decreasing the throttle had to be done gradually and thus they took longer to land.

  • jlookoround

    Imagine if the Nazis had bombed New York City the same way they bombed London. Imagine if they had a fleet of aircraft carriers rivaling, at least, Japan’s fleet…

    Imagine they won! and us? ..NOW!

    … instead of Mcdonalds, we’d have MCBratBurst
    … instead of coke zero, we’d have a DOUBLE LAGER
    … instead of a side salad, we’d have a SAUERKRAUT
    … instead of a CLUB, wed have a BIERGARTEN,
    I dont know about you, but it aint sound so bad to me…..

    Thats me kidding! … great list!

  • Uri

    It was US that got a nuclear bomb off german scientists..

  • alexman

    the ak-47 is just a rip off of the stg-44. they work and look similar but the german one was years before the soviets “invented” the ak

  • Rowena

    The really ironic thing about the bomb, number 10 on this list, is that the inventor of some of (I’m not entirely sure what bits) the technology that led to the bomb was a German Jew who escaped from Germany to the US, so if Hitler had not discriminated so violently against Jews, he could well have had the bomb.

  • ForgottenPatirot

    The North American Mustang could have still gone toe to toe with all of these planes.

    and aircraft carrier wouldn’t have really made much of difference in winning the war.

  • wuxinghongqi

    The tools of war, the tools of death!

  • Edmian

    Were you there, at all 3 places?

  • Edmian

    The above comment was intended for the folks that said some cities were bombed worse than the others mentioned.

  • mordechaimordechai

    The StGw 44 shot 7,92×33 whether the K98 shot 7,92×57.
    i don’t know if anyone wrote this; i couldn’t be bothered reading all the comments.

  • mordechaimordechai

    ah! and those who say that the ak47 is a stg44 ripoff don’t know what they are talking about.
    They just look similar. they work completely differently.
    stgw44 is recoil op. the ak47 is gas op.
    Mechanics has nothing to do with looks

  • Dan

    Excellent list with some great historical oddities.

    However, if they ever acheived practicality the “land cruiser” ultraheavy tanks should have at least an honorable mention. Weighing in at many hundreds of times the weight of a Sherman the Maus and Ratte could have worried an entire tank division- if they could ever solve the problem of their prodigious ground weight.

  • rogerkni

    <div id="idc-comment-msg-div-79121610" class="idc-message"><a class="idc-close" title="Click to Close Message" href="javascript: IDC.ui.close_message(79121610)"><span>Close Message</span> Comment posted. <p class="idc-nomargin"><a class="idc-share-facebook" onclick="IDC.ui.fb_wrapper(79121610)" href="javascript: void(null)" style="text-decoration: none;"><span class="idc-share-inner"><span>Share on Facebook</span></span> or <a href="javascript: IDC.ui.close_message(79121610)">Close Message"Imagine that they had guided missiles,"
    I read that the Germans used a radio-controlled cruise missile, dropped and guided from a plane a mile or two away, to hit a freighter in the eastern Mediterranean in (I think) 1943. It did not sink (I don't think), but was very badly damaged. News of the attack and its effectiveness was suppressed, to avoid encouraging the Germans. There was a lot of fear of the threat it posed if widely deployed. Fortunately, it wasn't.

    (If anyone has more detail on this he should post it. I'm sure I've got some things wrong.)

  • Msf (Brasil)

    The first bad list I saw here. But nothing is perfect

  • Slacker

    "In trained hands, the StG-44 could lay down a devastating hail of 7.92mm bullets (the same as used by the Kar98),"
    This is incorrect the STG-44 used a toned down version of the round using less powder making it smaller lighter and have less recoil but a shorter effective range.

    Also the Graf Zeppelin would not have been very effective as carriers were almost never used in the European theater as

    1 carrier based planes are inferior to land based planes
    2 there was no need for them as all targets could basically be reached by land based fighters.

    Also this carrier would have been not very useful as the German navy was so out numbered they had no hope of engaging and defeating the UK's navy nor the US's.They would have been better off putting the resources to use else where the only useful ships to the Germans were subs.

    Other than these problems good list although I disagree about the viability of the V2 as a weapon for anti military role as it was not cost effective as a actual weapon but as a terror weapon. Hitting military targets would have lessened the terror.

  • Swag Master

    disagree….absolutely the atomic bomb. for something that “could have” lost us the war, you could really say anything. The fact that hitler didn’t concentrate on moscow “could have” cost us the eastern front, letting him commit all resources to the west, obliterating us. but the only real weapon that would have hands down ended the war in favor for the germans was the A-Bomb.

  • PC

    #10. “Me-262 was a fast and deadly aircraft, and outpaced almost all Allied fighters (only the P-51D Mustang could match it.)”

    Utter nonsense; P-51’s and the DeHavilland Mosquito did shoot down ME-262’s that were caught unawares cruising, on take-off or out-turned but not because they could match the ME262 s top speed of 569 mph.

    No reciprocating engine could match this jet.

  • Simon

    Was WW2 really that close?

    So what if the Germans built an aircraft carrier or some fance new planes. The sheer air and naval power that America commanded at the time meant sticking a couple of fleets in Europe would decimate the Kriegsmarine.

    Sure, the Stürmgewehr was an incredibly well designed gun, but again, the Soviets were just able to make so much more weapons and ammunitions for a fraction of the price. A short burst of machinegun fire from German guns equates in cost to a rocket barrage from the Soviets (OK, I’m exaggerating, but the cost difference is still massive)

    Let’s also not forget that close to the end of WW2, the Werhmacht numbered little more than 400,000. The Soviets had over 1 million, America could potentially match Germany’s forces, and then then there’s all that resistance to deal with from occupied territory, especially the well-organised and lethal French Resistance which alone can also match the Wehrmacht in sheer numbers. You also have to take into account that Germany will eventually piss off Switzerlanland (a nation where military training and service is compulsory and repeaed) which can chuck another million soldiers into the fray without breaking a sweat. Of course there’s also the Allied powers across the globe, from Africa to Australia to the Middle East…

    I simply don’t see how Germany, with no matter what fancy weapons they have (except perhaps the atomic bomb), can withstand the sheer military size of half the world combined.

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