Etiquette used to be the glue that held society together. It enabled people to get on with friends and neighbors without causing offense or harm. Sadly, these days it has mostly gone by the wayside. This list is of 10 of the best rules of etiquette that have now vanished. Perhaps it will inspire some to revive them!
I have made this item 10 because it is more a case of correct dress rather than manners. First off, if your wedding is before 6 in the evening, you should not wear a tuxedo (black tie) or tails (white tie). You should either wear a formal suit or – if you want to be very proper – a morning suit. There is an excellent article here that will explain the rules of wedding dress for men. It is customary for the groom to give a tie to each of the men in the wedding party. If you are wearing a morning suit or a formal suit, give your wedding party ties that are similar but do not match. You want the party to look similar – but not like members of a choir. The photograph above shows you how this can be done to very good effect. It is, of course, Prince Henry and Prince William at their father’s wedding. If you are getting married after 6pm, you can wear a tuxedo or tails as these are evening clothes. Here is a guide for wearing tails.
In days gone by, a gentleman would always open doors for ladies. Whether it be the lady they were driving, or a stranger entering a building, it was always the done thing. This has now almost entirely vanished – and it is not entirely the fault of the men. I have seen women sneer at men for opening a door for them. They seem to be confusing manners with chauvinism. My advice in this case is to smile at the sneering lady and open the door anyway.
In days gone by, whenever a person received a gift, they would write a thank-you as soon as possible. This rule was true even if the giver was a relative. Parents would sit children down after a birthday or Christmas and coach them in their first thank-you notes. It is a shame that gift giving has now become a virtual obligation and the idea of a thank-you note would be scoffed at. If you ignore every other item on this list, at least try to teach your children to write thank you notes – they will have a greater appreciation of gifts they receive.
When people had a wedding or a special occasion party in the past, they would never have considered having a “gift registry”. To do so would be tantamount to asking people for a gift – which is extremely rude even today. It would also have been considered rude to say something like “no gifts” as it implies that gifts are an expected obligation. I can honestly say that I have never received a wedding invitation that didn’t also invite me to purchase a gift at my friend’s favorite shop. People seem to think it is okay as long as they include a few “cheap” gifts to balance out the extraordinary number of incredibly expensive gifts that I can’t even afford for myself! I have seen wedding registries that contain gifts valued in the thousands of dollars. Wedding invitations did not mention gifts – they did not ask for them and they did not include such silly things as “no gifts!” or worse still “donations to [insert charity no one cares about except you] in lieu of gifts”
We seem to have completely lost the concept of correct timing when it comes to parties these days. People leave when they are bored, when they want to go to another party, when they are too drunk, when they are not drunk enough, the excuses are endless. First of all, a party normally has a guest of honor – this is usually the oldest woman present. It was considered extremely rude in the past to leave a party before the guest of honor – and once the guest of honor left, it was a signal to all that they should begin their own preparations to leave. The loss of this etiquette rule is because we have largely thrown away the concept of a guest of honor.
This seemed a fitting item to follow the previous: in the olden days it was rude to arrive late. There was no such thing as being “fashionably late”. Lateness was rudeness – always. In most houses, if you were invited to dinner and turned up 15 minutes late, you would end up eating alone in the kitchen surrounded by the household staff, only to be allowed to join the party when the polite guests (who arrived on time) had finished and were retiring for the evening’s entertainment.
I could write a whole list on the lost etiquette of dinner – but I shall simply abridge it for this list. First of all, people used to dress for dinner – and they would all eat together at the table. Dressing for dinner emphasized the importance of family and healthy food. It is no wonder that now that we scoff food down in front of TV and all eat at different times, that we are becoming fatter as a race. This is one area where I try particularly hard to follow the rules. I don’t dress for dinner, but I sit with my family every night at the dinner table. I strongly recommend it as a good way to build up a good family spirit.
I had to add this item because there is a brilliant and funny quote relating to it. Let’s start with the quote (it is from “Everyday Manners” by Emily Post):
[P]arents must never disagree before the children. It simply can’t be! Nor can there be an appeal to one parent against the other by a child.
“Father told me to jump down the well!”
“Then you must do it, dear,” is the mother’s only possible comment. When the child has “jumped down the well,” she may pull him out promptly, and she may in private tell her husband what she thinks about his issuing such orders and stand her own ground against them; but so long as parents are living under the same roof, that roof must shelter unity of opinion, so far as any witnesses are concerned.
That is how a strong a rule it was! I bet you won’t find any parents today who agree strongly with this one.
This is probably the rule most ignored these days: in the old days, people walking on the street would dress discreetly, talk discreetly, and never do anything which would draw attention to themselves. It was forbidden to mention names of friends as it is indiscreet. The gentleman always walked on the road side of the sidewalk – to protect the lady or ladies from passing traffic (which the two fakes in the photo above appear not to know). People would not look or talk to strangers passing and would never call out to a friend on the other side of the street.
This is another large topic. Let’s give a quick rundown: A gentleman would have never:
1. Borrowed money from a lady
2. Borrowed money from a man without security and the intention to pay it back as quickly as possible
3. Discussed money
4. Discussed his possessions or their cost
5. Name dropped: “When I was dining with Mr Rich…”, “I am great friends with Miss Gottabuck”
On the other hand, he would have assumed the debts of a deceased family member as it was a debt of honor. How far we have come! Money and the pursuit of wealth has become so obvious these days that a whole new term has been coined because of it: conspicuous consumption. There was once a day that we did not try to keep up with the Joneses – because we didn’t know what the Joneses had and no one knew what we had.
Contributor: JFrater























November 27th, 2008 at 1:53 am
The parental unity quote seems a little dated.
November 27th, 2008 at 1:55 am
I still open doors for anyone
. Also, i never ask for gifts for anything. Nor do i say no gifts or anything similar. Though i don’t write thank you notes…oh well.
November 27th, 2008 at 1:56 am
I bet that only a tiny portion of society (ie the slightly rich and the wannabees) actually followed most of these. The superrich and the superpoor probably couldn’t care less. Eg for the superpoor, wedding clothes were probably the one set of clothes you owned. For the lower middle, wedding clothes were probably the other set of clothes you owned, which probably belonged to someone else before.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:00 am
Somethings I agree with on the list and somethings I dont like talking about money and asking for gifts should be a complete no no but leaving at the right time come nobody really wants to stay at a boring party or grandmama’s and her friends’ version of “rolling down the river” at their home. No you find the nearest exit and run.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:00 am
A few of these I would like to see return to modern society. Then there’s others like the leaving a party thing, I disagree completely with that. It’s kind of like the ‘finishing your dinner to not appear rude’ argument. I disagree with that too. I refuse food from people just because I know that I don’t finish meals so well because I’m a small eater, and it’s very frustrating.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Hmm I need to show a certain someone #1
Never borrow money from a lady!
Great list
x
November 27th, 2008 at 2:05 am
wow.
interesting list.
i totally agree with the gifts thing!
November 27th, 2008 at 2:10 am
gr8 work! gr8 brain! I don’t know such etiquettes b4.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:15 am
They have indeed been lost, but who is to say we are worse off without these rules of etiquette?
Times change, and with them, etiquette.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:20 am
Alloy guns on the list, g. These days, if you display classic manners you are not PC and are even called a sexist sometimes. Seems the best way would be to act like Koreans as they have a culture is absolutely devoid of manners and social graces.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Not that I particularly care for the royal family, but the one on the left is Prince Harry (not Henry). I always hold the door open for people (regardless of gender) and if a man does it for me I always smile and say thank you. I always thought that the wedding registry idea was very rude. I haven’t been to many weddings, so I’m not sure what the deal is here, but my mother would buy the gift and I’d but my scribble on the card. And I don’t think I know anyone who has ever written a thank you note. I just don’t think it wa sin our culture ever.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:41 am
ligeia: In fact, he is Prince Henry of Wales. Let me quote from wikipedia:
Full article here.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Are we supposed to live like in a Jane Austen novel? (maybe not such a bad idea)
November 27th, 2008 at 2:53 am
ligeia: thank you cards have only recently vanished – they were still in common practice in the 1950s. The ’60s has a lot to answer for!
Sunshine: the good news is that modern etiquette says that you eat until you are satisfied and if that means cleaning your plate – or leaving it partly filled, there is no problem. For a while it was rude not to eat everything, then it became rude to eat everything – now it is not an issue. The only rule about food that matters is that if “seconds” are offered (which is not normally done in a formal setting) and you accept them, you should eat everything – it makes you look piggy to take a larger second helping than you can eat
Quite practical I think.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:54 am
davern: the quote is from the 1920s, so the English does sound dated. I think parents should absolutely be united – but the example given is incredibly unlikely.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:27 am
jfrater: ok, fair enough, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of him being referred to as Henry. We (here in Ireland) get far too much British media, all the British tabloids, Sky News, BBC etc. and I’ve never heard him being called Henry. He’s the ‘rebel prince’, headlines such as ‘Harry’s Nazi Scandal’ (he dressed as one for a fancy dress party) and ‘Harry punches paparazzi’ was another. He went mental after some photographer tried to take a picture of him stumbling out of a nightclub.
I was born in the 80s so I couldn’t tell you about the 50s/60s. I’ll ask my mam if she ever wrote any.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:47 am
Wow, if only all the obnoxious teenagers would follow these etiquettes, its one step to creating a better place.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:47 am
The absolute number 1 that was not listed was to always, always say please and thank you.
The fact that this is disappearing in the Western world’s parental teachings is painfully obvious in teenagers. Although when a young person or child exhibits such good manners it stands out and brings a smile to my face.
Etiquette and good manners cost nothing (well, maybe the clothes etc.) but can make or break a person later in life. Maybe it’s a result of the American, or Western, attitude of personal freedom, or in other words “who cares what you think”.
The only thing that can bring it back is humility.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:50 am
Thanks for rubbing my nose in my old fashionedness.
I feel so mucher older now.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:03 am
very interesting list although im quite happy most of them arn’t around these days, most of them are unnecessary and rather silly. but some of them i believe should be still around, like opening a door for a lady and the wedding dress codes.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:09 am
Actually it is rude to allow a woman to enter any kind of mechanical door before a gentleman so lift dorrs and revolving door are to be negotiated by men first, In a lot of cases women can be offended when I rush past them in these suituations , so i have to explain to them the correct ettequite which is also rude.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:10 am
I can tell you from experience, that if you didn’t say yes mame, no mame, yes sir, no sir to adults growing up in the south in the 60’s you got a wood shampoo.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:23 am
Jamie, you will be happy to know that etiquette and manners are also called “The Southern Way.’ We still practice all of those things today, and to transgress one of these items would be called “tacky.”
Or “Yankee.”
November 27th, 2008 at 4:46 am
Mmm, the wedding registry has been around for over 80 years. These days it is generally considered rude NOT to provide a registry – as it makes it much more difficult for guests to buy gifts. Things not to do – register for only expensive things, include registry info in the invite. One should ask about a registry if one wants to buy from one. This isn’t a lost rule of etiquette but an adjusted rule of etiquette. Don’t believe me? Ask the Posts! (or google them)
Ok, kidding, but I’ve never seen it. As far as I am concerned, everyone should open the door for everyone if they happen to be in close range.
The gift registry is not considered “asking” for gifts, but is instead a list of suggestions. A guest is not required to buy from the registry, look at the registry, or ask where the couple is registered.
As for opening doors, I think this whole “dirty look” thing is a myth perpetrated by chauvinists
November 27th, 2008 at 4:53 am
In the United States people usually only tolerate Paris Hilton being late. I guess I don’t know for certain, but it seems even though punctuality has lost its importance in many parts of the world, the US has retained more old-fashioned expectations for timeliness. People are definitely considered very rude if they’re late where I’m from (Michigan). My friends who travel have told me being on time isn’t that important in Europe and I know its not in Mexico, but it is here. Its a pain, everyone thinks I’m a dick – I just get sidetracked.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:01 am
I think its good these rules of etiquette are fading. This stuff is so arbitrary. We should just use common courtesy and kindness in general to judge if someone is rude or unconsciousness – you could do all the things on this list and still be a jerk. If your a decent guy you’ll hold the door open for people regardless.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:30 am
Welcome to the 21st century. I admit, some of these rules should be used, but really, asking women for money? What the hell? That’s sexist.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:42 am
I’m not marrying until I find a woman that agrees with me on Parental Unity. Even if it’s never.
I have standards.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:57 am
I always, always find lateness really impolite, especially when the person doesn’t call and tell you, or apologize for it!
Another one that really bugs me is when people spit in the street. It’s just nasty.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:57 am
I blame US television and celebrity culture for the general decline in etiquette.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:58 am
Thank you cards are really great idea
And about gifts, I love recieving them but asking for them is a complete no-no….
And yes, men opening the door are always great…a bit of chivalry is always needed, but some men really go so excessive with it that one has to yell. ‘Stop buggin me.’
November 27th, 2008 at 6:26 am
warrrreagl (24): hahaha
Kazorek (27): ‘This stuff’ is not arbitrary. These, and more, are the rules that enabled and defined what you are calling ‘common curtesy’. They also provided a common ground for diverse cultures to communicate and interact. An area where we can do a bit better today. In addition, generally etiquitte rules are like language rules in that they define the education and status of person. For example, no one with any pride would arrive late, just as no one would confuse “your” and “you’re”.
Jamie: Excellent list. Except for 10 (I didn’t go to many weddings), this is the way I was brought up, and still follow.
There is some discussion on street-side vs. building side. The comment about street-side dangers is correct. However, in some areas (mainly residential) the men walked on the building side – due to the common practice of the tossing of trash (or emptying night buckets) out the window.
Perhaps another ‘lost rule’ is that we often forget is to express gratitude. On this day (especially), lets say ‘thank you’.
November 27th, 2008 at 6:26 am
I think 9 out of 10 is a pretty good score. I am not known for ‘being on time’ regularly – - – however I tend to observe all the others: I am truly shocked if even relatives start discussing money or asking questions about it of me – and ‘acquaintances’ get VERY short shrift if they try to do the same.
My wife and I get the ‘unity’ thing right most times – but we DO take each other to task in private if we think the other is wrong or has criticised them for a decision / judgement in public.
As for the others – I always try to walk curb-side of my wife, try to maintain discretion on the street (being naturally introverted tends to mean I don’t like drawing attention to myself anyway) and I have ALWAYS held the door for ladies (and men) – I even got a rollicking off a boss when I was in Youth Work for doing so saying I was going to get abused by some rampant feminist for doing so; I just said – ‘my mother would spin in her grave if I didn’t do so – she spent a LOT of time teaching an awkward, shy Asperger the basics of ’social etiquette’ and I wouldn’t want to dissapoint her. ‘.
November 27th, 2008 at 6:43 am
I totally agree with parental unity. My parents were like this and I try my very best to be so with my little girl. And I have always written Thank You notes, even for my little ones gifts, until she can write them herself. Good manners are rarely seen anymore…what a shame.
Great List!!!
November 27th, 2008 at 7:02 am
Anita and I still have my Mother’s (unsolicited!) wedding present, ‘Woman’s Own Book of the Home’ (1931), which contains heaps of useful hints and recipes.
There is plenty of contemporary etiquette for the average middle class Brit of the era, mostly spread around under alphabetical headings. I’m afraid they’re rather long, but I thought someone (Jamie?) might be interested or amused by the following two examples (I’ll split them into two posts and at different times):
“TABLE MANNERS
……DO NOT:
1) Break lumps of bread into a plate to soak up surplus gravy or sauce.
Critically examine any dish offered, ask questions, or touch it, then refuse it.
2) Bite or cut the bread or roll served with other courses. Convenient-sized pieces should be broken off as required on the plate, with the left hand.
3) Lay your knife down while eating with the fork, or rest the knife blade and fork prongs on respective sides of the plate with the handles on the table, or lay the knife and fork down crossed on the plate, or hold one in either hand, pointing upwards.
4) Remove and hold spoon, fork, or knife from a plate when sending it for a second helping.
5) Drink when you have any food in your mouth, or with greasy lips that will leave a mark round the rim of the glass, or omit to wipe your lips after drinking.
PERSONAL NOTE: The first part was, and remains, very difficult for me at times, as my salivary glands are not efficient, and I have considerable problems swallowing dry food!
6) Tilt your plate ostentatiously to spoon up the last drop of soup, fruit juice or custard.
PERSONAL NOTE: That was before the WW2, when there was barely enough food to go round!
7) Make any undue clatter on the plate with silver or cutlery, or scrape a plate round with the knife.
9) Push your plate away on finishing a course.
10) Continue stolidly eating your own meal if there are no servants waiting upon those present, but look around to see if you should pass anything to other people.
11) Collect condiments, butter, cakes, biscuits, etc. round your own plate, but after helping yourself put them where they may be reached by others.
PERSONAL NOTE: Almost a decade after that was written, my then 25-year-old aunt was a wartime WAAF home on leave. Her hand flew across the dinner table and snatched the tiny lump of rationed butter. “Nancy!”, warned my Grandmother sternly. “Oh, God, sorry Mum. Forgot I wasn’t in the mess still. It’s the only way you get butter there.”
12) Ask for a second helping of anything at a course lunch or dinner, though at simple family meals of only two or three courses an offer of a second helping of any dish may be accepted.
13) Take spoons or other serving implements on your own plate when trained servants or waiters are removing vegetables or other dishes or plates from the table, or make any attempt to to stack up plates, clear away crumbs or tidy any table appointments. It is incorrect, though perhaps meant kindly.
14) Leave a teaspoon in a cup or pour any any spilt liquid in a saucer back into the cup.
15) Eat with the fingers sticky fancy cakes and pastries, such as those containing jam, cream or custard, when a fork is provided. A whole slice of cake should not be bitten into, but first cut through, so that it may be handled more daintily.
PERSONAL NOTE: On sticky fingers. My mother never tired of recounting about a unique holiday in Italy when she was invited to dine with an Italian count and finger bowls were provided.
16) Let nervousness make you appear awkward if unused to lunching or dining out. Other people will not be so likely to notice any little mistakes you make if you are quietly self-possessed.
ONGOING RECOMMENDATION: Watch like a hawk what others are doing and imitate faithfully!
17) Make voluble apologies or explanations if you use the wrong fork or spill your wine, but pass the mishap off as quietly as possible.
ONGOING RECOMMENDATION. Unless you have the capacity and personality to turn it into a huge joke.
18) Take such a large portion of anything that other guests must go short, or an absurdly small one, but just hekp yourself moderately.”
Homer Simpson, please note Nº 18.
Nothing about licking the plate??? What an oversight!
Read well, folks, and no excuses accepted next time I ask you round. O.K.?
Afterthought 1: Apparently, it’s considered impolite not to belch after a good meal in some Arab countries. We discovered with embarrassment that if you show too much enthusiasm for further helpings of your host’s excellent food in Turkey, the servants go hungry! Apparently again, a food-splattered table is de riguer when eating Chinese, to indicate enjoyment of what has been provided.
Afterthought 2: It must be possible to pick up a deal of information about table behaviour since the earlier part of the last century from films of the different eras. This aspect occasionally played an important part in the plot.
Afterthought 3: That was written under 80 years ago. Our nearest relative, the chimpanzee, with a fractrional DNA difference, has maintained the same *table manners* for hundreds of thousands of years!
November 27th, 2008 at 7:02 am
I agree with Black-Yami-Cat (#30) about spitting in the street; unfortunately, it seems to be the national pastime in the UK (London, at least). Dropping litter in the street is another one (though the lack of public rubbish bins doesn’t help).
One thing that bugs me is annoying people getting in the way on the street when sending texts on their cellphones without paying due regard to those around them; or those who carry on lengthy and loud conversations on their phones on public transport.
Also, I’m another one who thinks that wedding lists are tacky.
Thinking about it, I could probably write a lengthy essay on issues of etiquette/manners that irritate me…
November 27th, 2008 at 7:05 am
stevenh: I’m very sorry about the “you’re” mess up, I’ll proof read next time. Hopefully people will understand anyways.
How very courteous of you to point that out for me. Not to mention patronizing me while you state your argument. Your mastery of etiquette has truly made you a gentleman.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Sincerity is the most important form of etiquette if I am not mistaken. Some are not even sincere in saying thank you.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Oh, so if I push my number nine and a parentesis I get a smiley face? Or not?
Lets see, Here goes: 9)
November 27th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Bugger, I can’t cpimt, it was
November 27th, 2008 at 7:06 am
I can’t (cpimt) type either!
November 27th, 2008 at 7:11 am
I use to hold doors for some people and there are few times I offered my seat to some people, all I wish to here is a sincere ‘thank you’
November 27th, 2008 at 7:17 am
I recall the one that men must always precede women up stairs so as not appear to be looking up skirts. This was a valuable piece of advertised information to nasty little boys, who might otherwise have overlooked the possibility.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:17 am
for #9, the equality issue has changed everything. Back here in Ghana, I have struggled with women on different occasions.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:26 am
All this talk of etiquette reminds me of a joke one of my colleagues sent me (she lives/works in New York)…
A Russian, Ethiopian, an Arab, and a New Yorker are walking down the street, when a reporter rushes up to them and asks, “Excuse me, can I get your opinion on the meat shortage?”
The Russian responds, “What’s an ‘opinion’?”
The Ethiopian responds, “What’s ‘meat’?”
The Arab responds, “What’s a ’shortage’?”
The New Yorker responds, “What’s ‘excuse me’?”
November 27th, 2008 at 7:33 am
My husband and I follow the rule about having a united front when it comes to the children. If he makes a decision that I disagree with, I will discuss it with him privately, and vice versa. The house would descend into chaos if the children thought that they could play us off one another. As a parent trying to do a good job, it just makes sense.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:36 am
Booo, hiss.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Actually, I think the “street-side/building-side” standard was started because men (being primarily right-handed) wore their swords on the left-hand side, so if escorting a lady, they walked on her left-hand side to a) be able to draw the sword without possibly hitting her and b) so the scabbard of the sword didn’t snag on her dress.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:53 am
Sugen, (44),
“for #9, the equality issue has changed everything. Back here in Ghana, I have struggled with women on different occasions.”
Do you mean you try to FORCE them through doors before you? Hahaha!
November 27th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Melissa, (48),
Anita wears the sword in our household. Ah me, sexual equality.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:19 am
These days it seems that when one says “Thank you” the reply is “No problem.” I wish we would return to the far more graceful “You’re welcome!”
November 27th, 2008 at 8:20 am
very interesting list and it was entertaining to read.
have a happy Thanksgiving everyone!
November 27th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Melissa (#48) – my understanding about the man always walking adjacent to the road was originally due to people emptying their chamberpots onto the street from overhanging windows above the ground floor in medieval times (if it hit anybody it would be the man, not the woman). Though there is undoubtedly some truth in this, equally likely is the explanation (per the list introduction) that it avoided the woman getting splashed by carriages passing in the road.
Besides, if it was due to the sword being worn on the left (or the right, for that matter) it would require the man to walk on either of the ‘road side’ or the ‘building side’, depending on which direction they were walking on the pavement, whereas the issue at hand prescribes the man walking only on the ‘road side’.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Anon, please consider not inviting me for dinner
November 27th, 2008 at 8:53 am
It’s a real shame that these have gone out of style. I think part of the problem is, and it’s an increasing problem, is the idea that everybody is the most important person in the world. It seems that nobody ever even considers anybody else, like the world centers around them, and everybody in it is simply there as a prop.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:05 am
I was raised with these rules as a matter of course, a simple fact of life.
When raising my own children, unfortunately alone from the time they were 4, 5 and 6 1/2, I instilled the same rules of etiquette in them.
Dinner was always a family meal, a sit down affair, with soft music in the background, and actual conversation.
They wrote thank-you notes from the time they could print, about age 3.
Now that they are all adults, I can see the fruits of my labor. They have carried their etiquette with them into adulthood.
My husband, whom I married several years ago, has always opened doors for me, has always acted the complete gentleman. It was his gentlemanly charm, together with his intelligence and razor sharp wit, which first attracted me to him!
I don’t think any of the above rules of etiquette are outdated. I believe we are in dire need of reviving them! The world has become a rather barbaric place, people, even nice people, acting in selfish “me first” manner.
It wouldn’t hurt to have a course in etiquette in every grammar school in the civilized world. (I don’t suppose the uncivilized world has either people or grammar schools)It would make living with others so much nicer.
And while we’re we’re on the subject of etiquette and niceness…in the United States this is Thanksgiving Day, a day set aside for us to reflect and give thanks for our blessings. I want to let all of my dear, dear friends here on LV (you know who you are, the old and the new), that I am thankful to have you in my life. You brighten my days, you bring me joy, laughter, food for thought, and a unity of spirit one usually only gets in the real world.
FOR ALL OF YOU, I AM TRULY THANKFUL!
November 27th, 2008 at 9:09 am
When I was little, I wasn’t allowed to play with/wear/use any gifts anyone gave me until my thank you notes were written, and I hated every second of it. Now that I’m older, I can’t imagine getting a gift and not writing a thank you for it – including gifts from my parents. Real notes, too..not emails.
My kids are most certainly writing them.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:25 am
psychosurfer, (54),
Done! You’d find me an absent host at my own dinner under those circumstances anyway. Still, as I remarked, at least it doesn’t circumscribe licking one’s plate!
November 27th, 2008 at 9:27 am
I still open doors for women, and slam them hard in the faces of men and boys
I think the people in two are actually walking correctly, from what I was told the men were actually supposed to walk the side away from the road, since people would chuck waste from their windows onto the street below.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Thinking of Nº 10. In these more relaxed days people tend to set their own individual dress styles for events. I see nothing wrong with that at all unless … Unless you are a guest and not forewarned. That is truly bad modern etiquette in my opinion. There is nothing more excruciating than turning up to any social occasion, probably as the invitee of a set you may not know all that well, and finding yourself grossly over- or under-dressed. There is no winner (or loser!) between those two circumstances either. If not given advance information, the tendency is inevitably to go for what you regard as the accepted norm.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:44 am
I dont know if I agree with all of these. On one hand, I love that my fiance always opens doors for me, we have a pact on parental unity for when we have kids (we usually do it now anyway and never fight in public), we are currently writing thank you notes for our wedding gifts, etc.
The only one where I do not necessarily agree with is the wedding registry thing. I live in Peru and it would be considered rude for me not to provide a list. Just as it is comsidered extremely rude to be invited to a wedding and not send a gift. A list is basically a way to help someone chose the gift so they dont have to wander around and around looking for a gift that the couple will like!
November 27th, 2008 at 9:49 am
#11: Don’t fart in public.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:52 am
But seriously, the dude’s name is Henry, and you call him Prince HARRY??
You Brits are CRAZY!
November 27th, 2008 at 9:52 am
i work as a server in a restaurant, and you would be amazed at how many people can’t even use the word please or thank you when asking for their food, or a refill. and the kids are the worst ! the parents simply let them trash the table because, hey they don’t have to clean it up.
please and thank you’s are the things i miss most :[
and i still write thank you notes :]
and while wedding registries/baby shower registries might be considered rude, to be honest most people want to buy the happy couple/parents gifts, and i think it just makes it easier to make sure you’re not buying a duplicate of something…etc..
November 27th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Seems like no set duo formation would protect the lady from having the jakes, etc. slung over her from time to time. After all, ground zero would depend on the weight and consistency of the contents; the physical condition, throwing arm strength and aim of the ejector; the design of the chamber pot or whatever container; the overhang and height of the building; the design of the window; the width of the pavement (sidewalk); and not least the civic responsibility or misanthropism of the thrower. Given that combination, one might imagine a full random arc of trajectories from near-vertical to far-flung (if you’ll excuse the pun), and sometimes all points in-between. (Now which of my friends was it who said they wish they had livced 500 years ago?) Protection? Better the umbrella than the sword, methinks.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:54 am
I think Aaron @ #55 has the gist of the matter, and whoever brought up humility back there. At least in the US, in the 70s we saw the rise of the “Me” Generation, and of totally self-interested yuppies who had no morals and no manners, who were out to change the national motto to “Nothing personal, it’s just business.” (The personal motto of our outgoing president!) Also, in America people think sincerity is terribly important, but they don’t understand a thing about it; they confuse it with bluntness all the time, and bluntness has a very fuzzy common border with serious rudeness here. Manners and etiquette are seen as elitist and “phony,” which are the catch-all basket for just about anything Americans don’t like. I do think (though I wasn’t around then) that a century and more ago, Americans did have a better working sense of manners — but when I was growing up in the Sixties, I was often taught manners by adults who thought humiliating a child in public wasn’t rude at all, but rather an excellent teaching strategy! I am teaching my daughters the basics of good manners, “please”, “thank you,” no elbows on the table, no interrupting — and people are constantly commenting on what polite kids we have!
I totally, TOTALLY agree with people who are disgusted by spitting in the street (or on the floor in malls and schools and other public places); sometimes I get someone leaning sideways and spitting, then giving me the eye as if there were an intentional comment in there somewhere. Then there are the cell phone users, as others have noted. A few years ago, one of the major magazines here did a whole article on cell phone etiquette and the lack thereof, including people yelling loudly into their cell phones in the middle of concerts, during weddings, in expensive restaurants, and so on. (I’ve heard of one guy getting beaten up and his cell stomped for using it at a major concert. Sounds like bad manners answered with worse, but oh well.) People seriously believe they have a right (inscribed in the Bill of, somehow) to use their cells wherever and whenever, especially to share their raucous half of an argument with the boyfriend with a whole store or bus full of people. More than anything, the cell phone is the national bird of the Me Generation.
And now, since my wife (okay, my first wife) often opined that it was rude to get on my soapbox and pontificate at length, I guess I’d better sign off. Excellent list, Jamie. Consider this my thank-you note!
November 27th, 2008 at 9:59 am
You’re absolutely spot on about gift giving. Not only do people expect gifts, some people keep track of the value of gifts received so that they can reciprocate along the same lines. I find this a very disgusting habit. You do NOT give or receive gifts with the intention of receiprocation, thats just not right.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:09 am
great list! though i think it’s a bit silly to have everyone walking down the street all morose-like. if i see a friend, i want to say hi!
November 27th, 2008 at 10:15 am
66. MartinL:…Manners and etiquette are seen as elitist…
****
My kids and I have been accused of being “elitist’s” since they were first in school, and I had them in Highly Gifted public schools. That, together with good manners, was too much for many people. Smart people with good manners? Nah? Must be those dratted elitist’s! To which we rather proudly answered (when rudely confronted as such!),
“Yes, we are, thank you for noticing.”
November 27th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Jfrater: On topic #2, Etiquette from the Victorian era stated that men must walk closest to buildings while women walked closest to the street, so that when people empty their chamber pots out the window it will land on the man and not the woman. This is also why it was a common practice for men to wear top hats and women to carry umbrellas whenever they go out, in order to block themselves from the filth flying everywhere. So the two in that picture are actually doing a pretty decent reenactment. Just thought you should know
November 27th, 2008 at 10:29 am
hahahahaha good riddance to all of these…….
November 27th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Discrete: Does not mean what you think it means.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Road etiquette.
Anita just loves England. Where people in cars sign thanks to others for any courtesy, and make sure they are seen, and the receiver also acknowledges the thanks. Where people gracefully let others out onto the main drag, or into a queue by turn from minor side turnings, or at narrowing roadworks. Where on multi-lane roads people on the main drag move into an outer lane if possible when they see another vehicle ahead joining the flow. Where a faster driver or vehicle will slow down in good time and patiently follow a slower one before turning from the line of flow rather than passing, crossing directly in front, and inconveniencing the slower one. How even large lorries give way when oncoming vehicles have the right. Where public transport drivers with the responsibility of passengers behave with the utmost restraint and professionalism. These are clearly not 100% universal, but are common practice, and as a rule draw strong disapproval when not observed. I was bought up in that environment and its unwritten codes. They were either copied or came instinctively to me.
Here in Chile most people drive like jungle animals. Never thank, acknowledge or even look at anyone who does you a favour. They are either proving your innate social superiority and right of way, and your better vehcile, or are so weak-willed as to be beneath contempt. Get there first, get ahead at any cost, no matter how short the distance. The faster and more powerful the vehicle, the better it is for that. This all too frequently consists of someone roaring away from you at a traffic light in a built-up area to shoehorn in front of you a few hundred metres further on, brake violently and turn off down a side-street, causing an equal frenzy of braking from you. Big inter-city buses will sit on your arse as close as they can get without touching and try to bully you into breaking the speed limit for them. Or those same buses and sometimes lorries will plough straight down the middle of the road at you outside a row of stopped vehicles when you have oncoming right of way. I could go on, but you’ve got the picture. Of course, not all Chilean drivers are like that either, and inevitably the women are in general (by by no means entirely) less aggressive. But sadly, in general it’s the polite exceptions which draw the attention, rather than the reverse. It takes an effort to keep up politeness, but pays for the occasional response.
When we visited the country, Chile used to be a land of a few careful and respectful car owners, much like Britain. Now we hardly know a family or friend who hasn’t lost someone in an accident, or doesn’t know someone who’s lost someone.
Road etiquette isn’t simply genteel manners. It preserves lives.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Another thing worth noting – I spent 12 years as an elementary school teacher in the Deep South, and Southern children are taught manners and etiquette as a way of life. “Please,” “thank you,” “you’re welcome,” and especially “Sir” and “Ma’am” were required responses from kids in school because it’s what their parents expected.
Yet, whenever kids from outside the Deep South moved in and joined our school, their parents were absolutely incensed and outraged at our demands or manners and etiquette. They were always positively livid about it, as if to say, “How DARE you expect my child to show politeness and respect!?”
I could never understand why good manners were always such a touchy issue with non-Southerners.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Oh, Jamie… Where were you when I was looking for a husband?
November 27th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Angharad, (72),
Well spotted!
From ‘The Right Word at the Right Time’:
“discreet, discrete Take care not to confuse the spelling of these two adjectives. Discreet means ’showing prudence, judiciously reserved’, especially in the matter of keeping secrets …
Discrete means ’separate, distinct’ …”
As the expplanation cunningly continues, “… discreet and discrete cannot stand in for each other; they are discrete words with distinct meanings …”
Therefore also discreetly and discretely.
As a biologist I find discrete useful for terms such as discrete organs or discrete habitats. However, the objects being described are often far from discreet! Hahaha.
November 27th, 2008 at 11:01 am
warrreagle,
Perhaps the problem is that in the eeyes of some, innate good manners, respect for others and consideration should arise partly and instinctively from within yourself, from your own sensibilities, and partly from observation and compliance with the behaviour of the environment you live in or were brought up in. The problem with inculcating formal superficial politeness is that it can mask a repulsive interior. Much fiction, as books, plays and films, has been built on that supposition. The great wits knew that the best and most pointed put-downs were always cloaked in the most impeccable social politeness. Repulsive social snobs can seldom be faulted for their formal politeness either, and so on. Very often the mere way an apparent politesse is spoken turns it into a horrendous verbal weapon.
I don’t know for sure, but suspect that aspect may have something to do with the question you asked.
November 27th, 2008 at 11:15 am
I have excellent manners; I say please and thank you, I open doors, I allow other folks out of the parking lot, I give up my seat on the bus for the elderly, pregnant, or infirm, I don’t swear in public. In fact I engage in no behavior that would cause another to feel uncomfortable. I use ma’am, Miss, and Sir when speaking to strangers. My kids are the same.
Do you actually think that I have ever, in my entire life, been accused of being elitist? Of course not, because that would be bad manners. The purpose of manners is to grease the wheels of civilization; to insure that we don’t offend anyone or make others feel inadequate or unworthy. I would say that if you’re accused of that, you’re not using your manners correctly.
I absolutely love the Emily Post quote about the well. It has been our practice since forever. A united front and all that. In fact in my house, one of the few infractions that might just get you a smack on the rear, is asking one parent and then the other if the first didn’t get you what you wanted. Manipulation by the children is not allowed.
Excellent List. Thank you Jamie.
Happy Thanksgiving to all my American friends!
November 27th, 2008 at 11:33 am
good list. my family occationally eats at the dinner table but we do always eat together
November 27th, 2008 at 11:37 am
I was brought up to always say please and thank you and I remember the thank you notes very well!
I like it when men (or anyone) opens a door for me, I think it just displays good manners, not sexism.
I think the wedding gift list is a personal choice, I didn`t think about gifts when I married, I had everything I wanted, and for me my wedding gifts were my family and freinds being there.
For me, it`s just a question of good manners really
November 27th, 2008 at 11:45 am
On topic #2, Etiquette from the Victorian era stated that men must walk closest to buildings while women walked closest to the street, so that when people empty their chamber pots out the window it will land on the man and not the woman.
ninjajim – I think you’ll find the opposite is the case, though your reasoning is correct. Remember, too, that English houses would commonly have the first floor overhang the ground floor (ie. would jut out; eg. Tudor houses).
Here’s a few sources :
“The idea being that a man should go on the outside edge of the pavement so that he protects her from passing cars and splashes from puddles, etc.” ["The Book of Etiquette", by Lady Laura Troubridge (1926)]
http://www.marts100.com/etiquette.htm
Also :
“Old-fashioned etiquette suggested that, if a gentleman were accompanying a lady, he would position himself between her and the road, to protect her from any spray and so on thrown up by passing cars. Another theory suggests that this is to do with chamber pots and trash being disposed of in the streets (pre-pavement days); compounding that with the enormous time (lace and embroidery) and expense of women’s garments.” [BBC - Some Guidelines of Pavement Etiquette]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1102014
And :
“Always give the wall to females; and if you meet a lady in a narrow street where one of you must step off the pavement into the mud, adopt that alternative yourself.” [The London Journal - 1845]
http://www.storyoflondon.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=453&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
November 27th, 2008 at 11:47 am
ninjajim: I think you have fallen for a fallacy – Top Hats became common due to fashion – for that reason and that reason alone. And women had parasols to keep the sun off them – for fashion and to reduce the number of corset induced fainting spells
I have never seen an etiquette book that says a man should not walk on the outside. If you can find me a source I am happy to change my tune though
Also, remember, going back before the Victorian era, a man walking against the buildings would not be able to easily draw his sword to defend his lady.
November 27th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Angharad (72): you are correct indeed – the issue is not the word but the spelling – I mean “discreet” not “discrete” – I will correct it now – thanks.
November 27th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Segue (56) thank you – and Happy Thanksgiving to you and all the American’s on the site!
November 27th, 2008 at 11:56 am
I think there´s an important difference between manners as a consideration for others (which I totally support), and obsolete useless conventionalisms that people follow without thinking just to “belong”, which emphasize their blatant snobism.
A crucial point that has been established here is that we are loosing our capacity and will to share and show empathy.
I have to leave,
Segue, thanks for those beautiful words and thoughts, happy thanksgiving
November 27th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Anon (43): that is true once but no longer. The rule now is for a gentleman to walk behind a lady up stairs and to walk in front of her when walking down – in order to catch her if she falls (good luck!). Oddly, the opposite is still true of an escalator if I recall correctly. If someone can clarify this I would appreciate it
November 27th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Number 6 does not apply to me since in my mind, I am always the guest of honor.
November 27th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Anon (35): I enjoyed that immensely – thanks
November 27th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I never turn up late for things and get really annoyed when people turn up to mine late! That is a rule of etiquette I stand by!
November 27th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Very interesting list.
I think the idea of asking for gifts at a wedding and having a gift registry is supposed to be more of a practical service to inform individuals of what items the couple *needs* more-so than what they *want* as they begin their life journey.
Some of these rules, however, are only applicable to certain time periods and certain cultural areas. In Southern Italy, for example, dinner at one’s home requires one to dress-down. It’s very much exemplified in a lot of Italian-American culture as well…the men take off their shirts and sit in wife-beaters and the women usually don aprons or “dinner dresses.” Despite coming from a Southern Italian family, my mother’s mother’s side always took that one dressed up for dinner while my grandfather’s family typically dressed down…needless to say it was a cause for friction between the 2 sides and one of the reasons why my grandparents divorced when my mother was a little girl.
Lastly, as a gay man, I laugh because so frequently we (gay men) tend to forget about the “rules” with regards to women…I will hold doors open (esp for people I know), but I wouldn’t dream of opening a car door for someone or worrying about whether a woman got splashed by a passing car down the street. Better her than my Dolce & Gabbana blazer!!
All in all, it would be nice if the greater population of Western culture would follow some of the basic fundamentals of Western etiquette.
November 27th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
SWEET HOLY HELL my parents tried to raise me right!
November 27th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
I always write thank you notes, especially to family members who are kind enough to continue to send me things. Because at this age, I’m lucky to get a birthday card…
I love it when men open doors for women, it shows good breeding, and I find it extremely rude when people don’t hold open doors for those close behind them.
I actually LIKE family dinners. I genuinely enjoy sitting at the kitchen table with everyone to eat a meal. We do this at home at least once a week. Televisions are not allowed to be on and cell phones are not permitted at the dinner table.
I hate arriving late to anything. People set a time of arrival for a reason… because that’s when they want you to show up! If being late is unavoidable, it’s rude not to call to let whoever you’re meeting know. It drives me crazy when people show up late to appointments. Especially when the person who’s late is the one who set the time!
November 27th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I agree with everyone who said they hated arriving late! Being on time is a major source of nervousness for me. I’d rather arrive early and sit in the car until the appointed time, than be late by so much as ten minutes!
When an invitation has a set ending time, I am always ready to walk out the door at that time, too. To do otherwise would be just as rude as arriving late.
November 27th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Mom424, that people confuse manners with elitism is hardly my fault. My copping to it is a joke on them.
November 27th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
i like all of these except number two
November 27th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
My friends call me a time-traveler. I practice all of those, which are unknown to them.
I almost feel ashamed of being the only one saying “please” and “thank you” to a McDonald’s waiter.
November 27th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Anon (73)- You should try driving in Lima, Peru. Believe me, I´ve been to Santiago and drivers there could really be regarded as the epitome of politeness by comparison…
November 27th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
This is a fantastic list, thanks.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
I can assure you that this is a list for the upper-class. My family has hundreds of stories that have been passed down for generations, and I can assure you that none of my ancestors followed most of these rules. We have always been poor, honest, hard-working, and friendly.
That said, I do follow some of the things on this list. I write thank-you notes. I say “please” and “thank you” to pretty much everyone. I smile at people and generally try to be as polite as possible. For me, genuine friendliness and compassion for your fellow man trumps a list of stuffy upper-class rules any day. Just my humble opinion.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
I am reminded of Pride and Prejudice from reading this list…
November 27th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Very sexist and very conservative. Do you understand, list writer, that most of these “rules” of etiquette bolstered an oppressive and paternalistic society? They are relics of a time when the supposed gentility of the affluent, well-mannered white male helped to justify his domination over the more marginalized gender, classes, and ethnicities.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Apart from the one about leaving parties, I follow most of these rules!
November 27th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
To Slavoj (comment 100)
Do you ever wonder why no one likes you?
November 27th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
98. Kessie:…For me, genuine friendliness and compassion for your fellow man trumps a list of stuffy upper-class rules any day.
****
Kessie, if you read the “rules” carefully, you’ll find that most of them are nothing more than basic friendliness and compassion. The Golden Rule.
A few people will read all sorts of rubbish into etiquette, but it’s really just being polite.
Being polite costs nothing but a few moments of time and effort. We can all afford that. It has the added benefit of making the world we live in a nicer place to inhabit.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Slajev, (100),
I’m referring your remark to warrreagle (74). Basically, I consider your comment is a grossly exaggerated and chip-on-the-shoulderish generalisation. The reason? It in no way applies to any listed behaviour here that can be classified as *natural good manners and consideration*. However, I reckon it certainly contains a fair germ of truth, and may be another reason for the violent reaction warrreagle has experienced.
If you believe we can interact socially without being taught, read up about some of the unfortunates who are supposed to have been raised by wild animals. (I’ll except Romulus and Remus. Hahaha.)
November 27th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
segue,
Having been raised in an extremely snobby neighbourhood, I’m afraid to say I have to agree that there are elements of formal etiquette which are only used to reinforce brittle, dominant classism and have nothing to do with respect and consideration. For sensitive souls such as my Mother, who arrived from a lower stratum armed only with her own fine education, careful speech pattern and pronunciation, and sense of propriety and intelligent good manners, they represented a constant social boobytrap in waiting. I now realise that psychologically it was in a lesser resect something akin to your nuclear experience. But fear of social rather than physical annihilation. Happily it never happened, but I now appreciate the continual subconscious strain, and that itt was the basis of her lifelong nervous problems.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
So I say, In Memoriam:
Too late, Mother dear, but thank Goodness people today don’t have to go through what you did, whatever the losses from earlier times, and however deplorable some of the aspects of modern gadget-dominated egalitarianism.
November 27th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Warreagle,
I agree, I am from the south, Alabama to be exact, and I was raised always to open doors for strangers, to be respectful at all times to my elders, to send thank you notes, also I am 36 now and I still say yes sir or no sir and I always wave a friendly hand and wave as I see someone, and to never judge. Though I have my moments like anyone else, I try to remember to always be respectful of others because I would want to be treated the same way. I’m sure others are taught this way in other places also, but they get caught up in the fast pace, it’s so much slower in the south. Maybe that’s why they find it so different when they move here or come here. Some of these could be from a time of gender-bias, but some of these are just being kind to others. I try not to judge too much when I have not walked in that person’s shoes.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
“I don’t dress for dinner, but I sit with my family every night at the dinner table.”
Hmm…that’s kinda weird. Are the rest of your family naked at the dinner table or just you?
November 27th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
The people who upset me the most are the ones who make a big flashy spectacle out of doing something courteous with a big “look at me and how polite I am” attitude. The trick is to do the right thing without much hoopla surrounding your good deeds.
The worst “pat yourself on the back” offender I can think of in this regard is Oprah.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Good. Lord.
This list is chauvinistic, elitist, hurtful, arcane, pretentious, and, overall, a terrible representation of the way that 99 percent of human beings wish to be treated.
I would absolutely hate to be around people who follow most of these rules. There are thousands of reasons that today’s society has digressed and NONE of them are listed here.
You have really shown your colors Jfrater.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Anon, I can sympathize, or empathize (I clearly know the meaning of both words, but in this case, I can’t decide which is correct!).
My own mum was raised to believe she was the center of the Universe, and could do no wrong. She was also steeped in proper Brit style etiquette, which she passed on to me and my brother….except for the following:
The part I either sympathize or empathize with her about is that my mum would, in other people’s houses, whisper to me, at 8 or 9 (without having direct knowledge of the subject) that she organized her bureau drawers better, and her method of pairing socks was far superior.
She’d tell me that the shape of her toes was better than so-and-so’s, and so was the shape of her legs.
Her being superior to everyone covered everything. I was constantly worried that I couldn’t live up to her expectations (in fact, I couldn’t. As long as I lived at home, the only picture she carried in her wallet was one of my brother, and she never stopped comparing how I lived my social life to how she lived hers).
It finally occurred to me, after years of therapy, that she was the way she was because she had to continually reinforce her self-image.
It did teach me to be a better mother by *NOT* following her example!
November 27th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Wow. This list is kind of… For lack of a better term, bull shit. It’s quite apparent that it took quite a pompous individual to come up with it.
Who makes up these “rules” of society, and what in the name of all that is holy gives them the right? I will agree that there are some obvious societal do’s and don’ts, but beyond the general “don’t be a douche,” I don’t think that anything else applies.
Why do women deserve all this special treatment? I think opening doors for women when they are perfectly capable of doing so themselves is just like saying, “I’ve got a penis, which makes me biologically superior to you, and therefore better at opening this door than you. Please just rest your frail woman arms and do NOT expend any energy at all, for it might tire you, thus distracting you from your only useful role: repopulation.”
Number ten literally makes me angry. I didn’t realize there was a dress code released by Jesus listing specific regulations for all the world’s weddings. “Oh my GOD, that son of a bitch is wearing a BLACK tie before noon? I’LL KILL THAT FATHERLESS BASTARD!”
You know what? I’m going to go beyond saying that specific numbers make me mad and just go ahead and say this whole list makes me mad.
I would hope that parents disagree some. If you marry somebody that always agrees with you, you might want to make sure it’s not a robot.
Discretion on the street? Why? If I want to call attention to a friend on the other side of the street, you had better fucking believe I’m going to. Oh, and I love the bit about not talking or even making eye contact with strangers. That would -kind- of be how you meet new people. And I find that “protecting ladies on the street” and all the while being careful not to look at them or talk to them are conflicting ideals.
The only relevant points you make in this horrid assortment of horrible “rules” are being on time and thank you notes. All of the rest of these is just genuinely stupid. Please shoot yourself in the face… Now.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
hmmm… now that I think about it asking someone to NOT shoot their face off should of been in the list
November 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
erm, these are*, not is, that was silly of me. =[
November 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
These rules of etiquette may have been great for their times but the fact is that we live in much less formal times. Also our lifestyles are much more different than they were years ago.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
“Number 6 does not apply to me since in my mind, I am always the guest of honor.”
I agree with this one whole-heartedly, Robert.
November 27th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Etiquette has always been subjective. As societies change, so do the rules.
Trying to apply old etiquette to modern times may not be particularly useful, but note that people have ALWAYS DONE THIS. It is not new. It does not especially stand out in the universal list of stupid things.
Etiquette, like language, is one of those things that exists by general consensus. Different registers exist for different occasions. Just… chill, people.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Panic,
I agree in every way. These are further ways to prevent equality amongst genders. I enjoy a lot of the lists here but the clearly conservative and chivalry driven ones are quite insulting to my ideals.
The common courtesy ones are ok though
November 27th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
A wonderful little aphorism by, I think Oscar Wilde (who else could it be?) sums up how etiqette exists (or existed) at once as a social badge and a lethal social weapon:
“A gentleman is a person who never deliberately offends.”
Just note that marvellous little word “deliberately”.
Etiquette is the very basis of class security, insecurity, dominance and social pretension. Anyone who has merely dipped a big toe into British literature, filmography or TV comedy and drama has to know that. “Vanity Fair”, Jane Austen, “Upstairs, Downstairs”, “Gosford Park”, “Keeping Up Appearances”, “Angels and Insects”, “To The Manor Born”, “Only Fools and Horses”, “Fawlty Towers”, … well, the best part of Brit comedy is based on that premise.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Gee why don’t we all just live like the exact same perfect flawless person?
November 27th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
“It would also have been considered rude to say something like “no gifts” as it implies that gifts are an expected obligation.”
As a mother of four, I always include “no gifts” on my children’s party invitations and know many other mothers that do as well. This isn’t done out of a belief that gifts are expected but as a way to ensure that no child is forced to skip a friend’s party because they couldn’t afford a gift. I know some families that only allow their children to attend a certain number of birthday parties per year because they can’t afford (or choose not) to buy presents for all of them. This ends up being upsetting for the child unable to attend as well as potentially devastating for the birthday child who can’t understand why one of their friends would refuse to come to their party.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Oh dear God… What is with the aggressiveness? How in the world can being polite contribute to the inequality between genders?!? It´s not that I, as a woman, cannot open a door and I KNOW that my fiance doesnt do it because he has a penis and he thinks I might faint from the exertion.
Here´s a novel idea. Instead of thinking of it as a degradation of the female gender, consider the opposite as true. Men will grovel at our feet… WE HAVE ALL THE POWER!
November 27th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Those who have suggested holding doors open for everyone rather than nobody (for fear of insulting women) have my sympathy. I have no problem walking through a door held open by a woman if it’s appropriate to the flow of movement. And I hope I would no more rudely push in front of another man than a woman. But you would be surprised how nasty regular women shoppers can be in supermarket checkout queues trying to sneak in front what they probably regard as a soft *inexperienced male shopper*. That gets from me the verbal treaqtment it deserves!
Graciously declining is another social skill that is sometimes lost in favour of unnecessary outrage. Into my seventh decade, I’m still perfectly capable of hitting the summit of a 2000 m plus mountain and back in day from well below 1000 m. Nevetheless, young people occasionally look with pity on my wizened features in buses and trains, and may be known to offer up their seats. Even young women have done that. Now I might react with indignation as “WTF do think I am, some One Foot in the Graver you insolent young so-and-so.” But I smile gratefully and decline politely. What else?
November 27th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Here’s a thought: the word ‘etiquette’ is French, and the wiki article says that our modern concepts of etiquette generally derive from the court of Louis XVI.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Some of these rules need to be reinstated, but the rest are just nitpicky. The wedding dress rule is just an outdated custom.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
GTT:
You just said the following.
“How in the world can being polite contribute to the inequality between genders?!”
and then:
“Instead of thinking of it as a degradation of the female gender, consider the opposite as true. Men will grovel at our feet… WE HAVE ALL THE POWER!”
I think I’ve made my point. Now go find a man to do all of your thinking for you.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Alextenn: Wow… Did you not see the smiley face? As in, a light-hearted comment to take the edge off? I guess you must have missed it in your hurry to to be as disagreeable as possible…
November 27th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
the author of this list has traveled forward in time from the late 1800’s, leaving his town of toffeeville!
November 27th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I always offer up my seat on the bus, it’s something I’ve been raised to do, and as a young woman in my early 20’s I’d hate to offend an older man, but it’s done in a courteous spirit? I never realised anyone felt indignant because of it, if anything here, in Ireland, it’s considered the only polite thing to do. I’d expect a young fella to offer his up first, and I’d offer more automatically to an older woman, but but it’s what’s always been considered the nice thing to do. And that’s why I do it, to be nice, and as a sign of deference and respect.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
And just to add a little to this talk on etiquette contributing to gender inequality; I’ve never been expected to be treated the same as a man. Equally, yes, completely, it’s my entitlement, but not the same. We are different beings, with different strengths and weaknesses, and different things to offer to a given situation. If a man wishes, being the more physically (body mass-wise) hardy of the two of us, to undertake to put himself before me in case of an accident, I am ok with that. If he doesn’t, I’m equally ok with it. I don’t expect the behavior, but I do appreciate it when it is extended, because it’s nearly always extended in a manner of respect. I’ve personally never known it to be extended in a subjugating way.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Oh Lord…I was taught most of these from a very early age. Always open doors for people, ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY women. If you don’t open a door for a woman, it’s like slapping them in the face (or so I was taught…). Always walk on the street side to protect a lady. ALWAYS write thank you notes, even if you profusely thanked the gift giver upon receiving the gift. Always stand up whenever a lady sits down/stands up at the dinner table. Never ever EVER begin eating until EVERYONE is seated; don’t even touch the silverware. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS be on time; be early if you have to, but never ever ever be late. Never. The way I was taught, lateness was the 8th deadly sin. I could go on and on and on, but most of the rules concerned treating women with respect (My mother is the only woman in my family of a father and 2 brothers, and she rules us with an iron fist, haha!).
November 27th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
This is my fist time commenting~^_^
I liked the list! Although some seem a bit old-fashioned. I definitely will try to have my future children write thank you cards. Its a great way to have more interaction with kids and teach them at the same time.
Great list! Reminds me of the the rules we think we forgot!
November 27th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Dayum!
I almost suffocated because of how stuffy this list was!
As Ned Flanders once said something along the lines of: “I wish we were still in the good old days! That time that exists only in the minds of conservatives!”
Don’t forget, that with all those “manners” and “etiquette” also came “double standards” and people thinking they were “better” then the next guy…
Give me modern equality any day!
November 27th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
How I miss these important points of civility and good, old-fashioned respect for others. Having been brought up in the U.K. these things were ingrained into my upbringing and it’s only now, across the pond, that I realize what valuable life lessons they were. There is no substitute for good manners, however fashionable it may be to eschew the old ways for sloppy modernity and the “anything goes” attitude which is depressingly prevalent these days.
November 27th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Hiamn- My thoughts exactly.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Number 6 still happens in some parts of Korea. A few months ago my wife and I had a group of colleagues for dinner. Soon after dessert the principal stood up, said pleasantries and headed for the door. Within 5 minutes, everyone was gone.
Koreans are a curious mix of formality and downright rudeness. At every Korean wedding I have been to (except mine), the groom has done the full ritual bow to both sets of parents, and the bride has bowed as low as possible from the waist. At my wife’s uncle’s 60th birthday various relatives had to do the ritual bowing to him (including me, under protest, but when in Seoul etc).
Contrasted with this are drivers and subway travellers. Seoul metro stations have footmarks and a line to indicate where to stand, people mostly do, until the train arrives, then everyone piles on any old how.
In Korea it is acceptable to ask someone you’ve just met “How old are you?”, “What is your job?”, “How much do you earn?” and “Are you married?”. Traditionally Korea had a very rigidly structured hierarchical society, where the ‘higher’ and the ‘lower’ person had distinct roles to play and things to say. In a village, you knew everyone anyway. In a traditional city, you could tell by their clothes or how many servants they had. Now, age, job and money have (generally) taken over that role.
As well as teaching English, part of my job is to give some knowledge of western customs. You’d have no idea of how many students greet me cheefully “Hello, ‘Smith’”, unaware of how monumentally rude that is. (I hope that they’re unaware and are not doing it deliberately!)
I’m sure that I transgress against Korean etiquette all the time!
November 27th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Let me tell you about parental unity. IT WORKS!!! My husband and I were brought up the old-fashioned way and still follow many of the above examples. As regards to parental unity, our boys are now 16 and 14 and I cannot tell you how many people compliment us on our “wonderful” children. So polite, kind, generous, gallant. We have always sat down to dinner together and eaten healthily and with conversation and another comment we received was sheer amazement that boys this age still want to “hang out with their parents”. I truly believe a little etiquette goes a long way and helps build lovely people.
November 27th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Overly formal and anal retentive much, Jfrater?
November 27th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
jfrater: That’s what I get for trying to remember my 9th grade history class 7 years later. I cede the point to you
Though, as a philosopher(yes I do have a degree in philosophy!) I must dispute your use of the term fallacy, my logic was flawless, it was my information that was wrong. A formal fallacy points out a flaw in ones logic between their premises, not the premises themselves. An informal fallacy points out a flaw between ones premises and their conclusion, though not necessarily due to logical components. The term has taken on a popular and nonetheless incorrect meaning of being mistaken in idea or reference (aka ones premises) this is simply not true. And that point I could give you many sources for!
November 27th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Also, who cares what white commonwealth people did a hundred years ago?
REALLY?
November 27th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Panic (113): I am sorry you think I am pompous and more so that you think I ought to shoot myself in the face. I wrote this list – as I have done with so many of the others, so that I can provide varied and interesting entertainment via this, my site. You don’t have to like everything I present here, but to suggest that someone shoot himself is very unpleasant and not something that the majority of the readers here would say. Furthermore, if I did, there would be no more site and lists – so we would all lose!
November 27th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
joeyjoejoeshabadoo: many of the people who have written the 140 comments on this list? Just because you are only interested in things that happen to you in your life, doesn’t mean everyone else wishes to be narrow minded.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Bah… Sorry for the overall unpleasantness of my comment, I suppose I could have toned that down a bit. I realize it’s your site, and you should post whatever you please, this list just hit me wrong.
I apologize for asking you to shoot yourself in the face, but not my opinions.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
The girls-sneering thing happens to me all the time. Of course, if someone they’re attracted to opens the door, they want to talk about how they have great mannners. Of course, I do live in the south and there are a lot of shallow people here.
November 27th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
As I was reading these comments, I kept waiting for someone to point out the blatent rudeness of jajdude in #10: “Seems the best way would be to act like Koreans as they have a culture is absolutely devoid of manners and social graces.”
I hope he meant his comment to be “tongue in cheek,” but that was not at all clear. Astraya helped a lot by explaining some of the differences between Korean and western customs. I still think jajdude’s remark was rude and racist, and so would my Korean friends.
To me, and to the family in which I was raised, etiquette and good manners were very important, and were seen as a basic tool with which to get along with one’s fellow humans.
There was one change, though. My father, a colonel in the Air Force, never allowed us to call him “Sir.” He would say, “I’m your father, not your commanding officer!” So it was “Yes, Dad,” or “No, Dad.” I still find this charming.
Basically, if one follows the Golden Rule, good manners will be the result.
November 27th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Would it have been adhering to the “Rules Of Etiquette” if he asked you, politely, to wear a Kevlar mask before said face shooting?
I hope it wouldn’t be as horrendous as wearing a black tie before 6 on your wedding day. God forbid, am I right fellas?
November 27th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
I scoffed as I scarfed down this list.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Number 2 is interesting. In Mexico, if a man and a woman are walking down a sidewalk, the man must also walk on the street side. If the woman is on the street side, it means that she is a prostitute and the man is her pimp or a “john”.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
the reason those rules died out is becouse they are all obsolete. to bring them back would take humanity a step backwards, move on with your life.
November 27th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
“Manners” has to do with forks etc.
“Courtesy” has to do with consideration of other people.
If you are unsure about the “rules”, be considerate, it’s hard to go wrong that way. At the root of most of it is avoidance of grossing people out, insulting them, or hurting their feelings. I brought up my sons to be courteous when they were tiny (do not think you can impose civilization on preteens, too late). I got them used to wearing formal clothes when called for so that they were not wearing them uncomfortably or stiffly on a job interview or their own weddings! They can be easy in a suit or a tee shirt. Big bonus: Their manners and courtesy have opened up worlds of opportunity and adventures to them…people want to be around them. They fit in with their peers but also are comfortable with other groups, ages, environments, courtesy helps with teachers and employers. I also trained them on the basics of customer service as that is a disappearing art and is also based on consideration and courtesy. Guess you can’t teach it in the schools, but this may be the most important thing they have learned. It all comes down to kindness.
November 27th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Times change. Cultures change. Every epoch laments the passing of “the old ways.” I’m all for listing lost rules of etiquette for posterity, but the tone of this article approaches admonition. To suggest that some of these (like #10) should be revived is a bit absurd. For others, I can’t help but agree.
As for opening doors for women/protecting women from traffic, I believe they show a dedication to practices that hark back to a time when women were “delicate flowers to be protected by powerful men.” It’s a vestige of gender inequality that’s disguised itself as common courtesy. I have no doubt that the man who opens doors for women is well-meaning, but the assignment of males or females to either of the afore mentioned roles is something I oppose. Holding doors only for women is a nod in that direction. The truly considerate person opens doors for BOTH women and men.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Holy cow, what’s with all the comments about how “elitist” this list is? I almost forgot what list I was reading. This isn’t about bowing to people at high tea or anything, it’s “showing up on time”, “not over/understaying a welcome”, “don’t argue in front of your kids”, and “don’t borrow money you can’t pay back.”
I don’t think I’d like to know the people who find that kind of behaviour “snobbish.”
True, some of the details are archaic, but this was intended to be a history lesson as much as anything else.
As for the thoughtless comment about Koreans lacking manners- have you *met* a Korean person? I’m assuming you believe you know something about the culture, but it’s not rudeness, it’s a different set of manners. Trust me that I’ve caught hell for several breaches in “manners”, including:
Not properly greeting my principal.
Wearing shoes in my own apartment (the night I was first taken there after 26 hours of flying).
Letting my shirt ride up, exposing my lower back.
Refusing food offered to me (the hosts didn’t act offended so much as hurt, as their first assumption was that I didn’t like the food. The second assumption is generally that you’re feeling ill).
I’m trying to learn the Korean language now, and there are twice as many personal pronouns as the English language- because you need to use one set for those younger/inferior to you, and a different set for those older/superior to you. There are two ways to say hello/goodbye depending on rank, and almost daily when I try out Korean on a student, I’m told that “for children, you say it this way…”
As to what makes them appear rude: as Astraya has said, they think nothing of asking about your age, weight, blood type, or marital status, and the American “personal bubble” simply doesn’t exist. Strangers touch you (one woman grabbed my breast to push me down when I tried to give her my seat on the bus, then she dropped her purse into my lap), and my co-workers read the computer screen over my shoulder all the time.
Final bone: To Anon, who becomes offended when younger people offer their seats on the bus: I’m sorry you’re made to feel that way, but the fact is many of us are taught from a very young age to give up our seats to older/infirm/pregnant people, or those with many packages. We think it’s rude *not* to.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:22 am
Ah, that was the other jajdude. Guess I’ll have to be jajdude#2 now even though that guy is using my name.
I don’t believe ‘conspicuous consumption’ was much less common a hundred or more years ago. Someone just coined the term to explain it, but it has always been around. There have always been snobs who like to show off, and others who resent and envy them. Old movies and novels point this out.
A lot of this list reads like “the good ol’ days,” and how society has become ruder. I don’t buy it. The good ol’ days had some really big problems. I think we live in better times now than people did 50 or more years ago.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:37 am
My parents are actually VERY united. I’m 18, and I have maybe twice in my life seen them argue. I know this is rare, but I’m just saying that there ARE still some parents who do this.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:38 am
Get off your high horse, you’re probably not old enough to have enjoyed that list. you can just read about it and dream about it. But you’re missing out on a whole slew of other issues that were around in the “good ol’ days” that don’t aren’t as prevalent now. Women didn’t disagree with their husbands because they had no rights, you really want to bring that back?
You’ve never lived in a time that wasn’t marked by conspicuous consumption, and the phrase “keeping up with the Jones” was created around 70-80 years ago… so learn your history before running your mouth about the glory days that weren’t that great either.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:39 am
I will now shoot myself in the face to prove I disagree with comment #113 and to also prove I have a penis.
Seriously, I was a little surprised how much emotion this list stirred up from such a harmless subject matter. I read the list in the spirit of are we better off now with the present day etiquette (or lack of it ) or would we be better as a society to try to get some of the traditional etiquette from yesteryear back into our lives.
I personally feel some of these traditions have sadly become a lost art. Others I feel are destined to become obsolete because the changes that have taken place (good and bad) in our societies.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:54 am
I couldn’t agree more with no. 5. I absolutely detest people who can’t be bothered to turn up on time. If you are running late a phone call is the least you can do, and these days that is easier than ever.
Tell me ringo 710, what is your alternative to turning up on time. Talk about humanity taking a step backward.
And maybe this is going to sound anti-feminist or some stupid thing, but I love it when a man holds open a door for me. It is always a pleasant surprise, and one that is always answered with a smile and a thank you.
Common courtesy should never become a thing of the past.
And this is my electronic ‘Thank You’ card. Fantastic list.
November 28th, 2008 at 1:04 am
I have to admit I knew about the gentleman walking the lady on the inside since an ex of mine was raised to do that by his dad.
Interesting and great list to read.
November 28th, 2008 at 2:16 am
I must be incredibly old fashioned! I not only knew all of these, but adhere to most of them too. I was under the impression that America was the only country having problems with this though. Am I wrong?
November 28th, 2008 at 4:42 am
In Hispanic countries, many of these still stand. I grew up thinking it was extremely rude to not send a thank you card, or to have bad manners during dinner. I was often scolded if I didn’t follow these rules.
The only thing I would say isn’t true in this case is the on time thing. Whenever we went to parties, everyone would arrive late. Even the people who were setting up would arrive late. It was just something people did, it wasn’t rude by any means. This isn’t true for obligations, however. If you have a business appointment, never arrive late. Ever.
November 28th, 2008 at 5:36 am
This afternoon a colleague was driving me to a teachers’ workshop when I let out a huge yawn. I said sorry. She glanced at me sideways and said “In Korea, you don’t have to apologise for yawning”.
Which explains most of my students!
I always walk on my wife’s right, but I’m partly deaf in my right ear, so I have to be on that side.
Once upon a time a young woman on a train asked a man to give up his seat for a pregnant woman. He looked at her midriff and said “You don’t look pregnant. How pregnant are you?” She said “About half an hour, and god it’s tiring”.
I was first offered a seat in a bus while I was at university. I used the (true) excuse that I was getting off at the next stop.
November 28th, 2008 at 6:28 am
It should be “open doors for other people”. Otherwise it’s just stupid.
November 28th, 2008 at 7:36 am
To Jessy, (153), in particular,
“Final bone: To Anon, who becomes offended when younger people offer their seats on the bus: I’m sorry you’re made to feel that way, but the fact is many of us are taught from a very young age to give up our seats to older/infirm/pregnant people, or those with many packages. We think it’s rude *not* to.”
Thank you for taking the trouble to read and consider what I wrote. However, do please read CAREFULLY. In fact I was making the exact reverse point to your conclusion: that one should cultivate the art of graceful refusal rather than outrage. Please read again and I hope you will realise that. If not, tell me so, in case I phrased the illustration ambiguously.
In fact I consider it a shining light of hope that young people give up their seats. One day I may even need it! However, at present I often find myself, who has passed the biblical lifespan, offering MY seat to the needy while many surrounding healthy young people remain stolidly seated (even trying to pretend to be immersed in a book or newspaper). They include schoolkids or other youngsters taking up seats next to their parents. My mother would have been ashamed even to remind me when I was that age.
To sum up. Always assume that any gesture is kindly intended, rather than patronising or insulting on a sexism, agism, invalidism, or any other -ism basis. Unless you are quite sure the intention is malign, that is. Inevitably, this is addressed to feminists. By all means refuse gestures you consider unconsciously humiliate women. Just do it graciously. Remember, kindnesses are like Peter Pan’s fairies. If you stop *believeing* in them, they die for everybody. You have no idea what mental effort it takes Anita and I to continue being courteous with Chilean drivers in general. Rude rbuff after rude rebuff … But we do.
November 28th, 2008 at 7:51 am
Hispanic manners,
Ah, yes. Chileans never turn up on time (which they regard as a quaint but admirable British speciality!). But since we run a rather chaotically overstretched and overfilled household and gardenhold, this can often be a considerable relief. Like Jaques Tatti’s “Frappez lá” to the squint-eyed mallet-wielder, one makes the necessary adjustment, so that it can actually be a problem if anyone does turn up on time (well, not really: they just have to pitch in and help)! One adapts, especially in the matter of what food to prepare and when, etc. Personally, I get far more offended that they bring along their nasty little uninvited guests, those mobile – cell – phones.
November 28th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Yo, JFrater… the #2 picture (Discretion on the street) is correct positioning of the man and woman – they are simply not on the proper side of the street (as it were). The gentlemen always has the lady at his left-hand side, as the sword arm is then free to engage an opponent without the likelihood of him slashing her on accident. There’s more to it than that, of course, though this is the simple gist of the custom.
November 28th, 2008 at 8:22 am
GTT, (97),
I’m prepared to believe you. We’ve never had the dubious pleasure of driving fist-hand in Peru, and most of our sorties there were out into the wild, wilds, However, I’ve heard tales from a colleague of Columbian bus drivers racing one another side-by-side, neck-and-neck the full width of winding mountain cliff roads. Statistically, I do believe Chile has one of the worst per cap. road accident records going though.
November 28th, 2008 at 8:24 am
Correction. Much as I like the accidental typo *fist-hand* (white knuckle drive?), the intention was first-hand!
November 28th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Okay, not having had time to read all the comments so far, I may be doing the ‘mynah bird’ thing, but here’s my take on the 10 rules of etiquette (in my semi-modern mind):
10 – Dress well, and in good taste. Keep the sequins and hot pinks AWAY from the wedding party and/or reception.
9 – I open the door for anyone and everyone when I am able. It is simply a common courtesy that we should all (man or woman) practice.
8 – A proper ‘thank you’ in any form is a good thing. It need not be written. Though it must be said, a thank you given 30 or 60 days after the fact has very little good effect – be timely in your thanks!
7 – In the modern era, gift registries can be a good thing, as they give your guests an idea of what you actually like and would want to put in your home (don’t be greedy!). If we get a random bunch of oddities that we never use, we are likely to give them to someone else (second-gifting, ew!) or simply box them up and never use them. I for one don’t expect gifts, but if I get them, I’d like to be able to say to the givers that I use their gifts every day!
6 – When there is no matron of honor, it’s hard to know when to leave. Best bet for the party host is to have already set a timeframe for the party… then people know when they should be getting ready to head for the hills.
5 – I’m old-school and military: to be early is to be on time, to be on time is to be late, to be late is pretty much inexcusable.
4 – Let’s simplify this by simply saying “get DRESSED for dinner”… don’t waste time getting dressed up. But yes, ALWAYS eat dinner as a family – this is often the only time of day that you will ever be together as a family unit, and have the opportunity to head what everyone has done that day.
3 – Let’s call this ‘unified front’, and yes, we parents need it. Cannot let the kids play us off each other (but dad said… well, mom said I could…), no way no how. Yes, we can discuss the battle plans after the kids go to bed…
2 – I can’t help but wonder if a lot of the quietudes involved here were nice ways of allowing us to ignore each other on the street… hmm…
1 – A great man once said, “Neither a borrower nor a lender be…” or something to that effect. Truth is, you gotta really really really know the people you borrow from or lend money to; debts owed can ruin friendships and tear family apart. Just be careful, and don’t lend more than you are willing to give freely in the first place.
November 28th, 2008 at 8:42 am
umm…duh, spelling errors. …opportunity to *hear* whate everyone has done that day. eh?
November 28th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Oh, and my husband wore a tux at our 3 pm wedding even though I knew the rules… So sue me, I knew he would look super sexy in it and when was he going to wear a tux again? I can barely get the man to wear a shirt half the time
November 28th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Now we’ve reached Post 170, it might be interesting to draw up a new set of *2008 LV Concensus Etiquette* rules. Or consideration for others, if you prefer. I think they’re beginning to shine through pretty clearly.
November 28th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Addendum
Including other neglected ones like giving up a seat where necessary, which weren’t on the original list. And new ones concerning disagreeable intrusion into the lives of others via street graffiti, cell phones, car alarms, bass heavy music from vehicles and neighbour’s houses, etc.
November 28th, 2008 at 10:51 am
How about some “found” rules of etiquette? Those things we didn’t used to do, but we are good about doing now?
-Smokers being more considerate of non-smokers
-Racial, gender based, and ethnic slurs being almost unheard of
-designated drivers, no more “one for the road”
-Football coaches and baseball managers acting like grownups when they argue with the ref or umpire (think Woody Hayes or Billy Martin for examples of the so-called “good old days”)
..this rule also applies to sports broadcasting,.. no more Johnny Most
-Parents listening to children if they complain about an adult touching them in the wrong way (actually we might overdo this one a little bit nowadays)
-date rape accusations being taken seriously, no more.. “she was asking for it” I’m not saying the gal is always right, but at least nowadays we take her seriously enough to investigate
November 28th, 2008 at 11:28 am
dave4248, (174),
Good points.
I would like to add the way, broadly speaking, adults take younger people and their interests much more seriously nowadays when merited. Youngsters are not just looked at and knee-jerk assessed according to how old they are or appear to be. Indeed, most of us recognise that if we have problems with out computer, a sub-seventeen-year-old is as likely to be able to fix it as anyone! Admittedly that can go to the other extreme of adults making fools of themselves by trying not offend youth culture or even desperately and absurdly trying to be part of it. In my day every child was desperately trying to be a *grown-up*!
Unfortunately there is also a more sinister element to this. At one time (including the epoch of the heading list) standard social manners and etiquette tended to favour a certain type of male being able to dominate in an explicit or implicit classist and socially bullying way. Adults had almost unhealthy control. The wheel has turned 180%. A year or so back I was in a surbaban train-carriage standing-full of assorted working-age city people coming home from an exhausting day’s work: tired, stressed out, trying to unwind. A couple of teenage louts started playing rap on some portable as loud as possible, and capered and chattered away raucously, punctuating their crude talk with obscenties that were indirectly aimed at some of the younger women present. They were given hard looks, which did not stop them, but nothing else. Hardly surprising. On that same line a fortnight earlier, a quiet 50-something city gent had politely asked a similar bunch if they’d mind turning down a similar offensive row. They got out at his station, followed him to quiet spot and knifed him to death. Although not unique, such an end result of murder is mercifully rare. Being beaten up on occasions, or obscenely insulted regularly, and certainly almost invariably insolently ignored all the time isn’t though. Youff culture noise (by youffs of all ages) and graffiti in all parts, as well as obscene language shouted in public by kids scarcely out of the cradle has all but run out of control in several places I know. Thank Goodness some of the sweetest, most intelligent people I know in Chile and Britain are also under 20.
November 28th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I wrote an article some time ago on the one person who had affected my life the most. I can’t say it was strongly, but I chose my high school music director. He REFUSED to give up on us and demanded respect and manners. To this day I automatically check behind me when entering a building to see if I need to hold the door open for anyone (even though I am a woman, I try to be a polite woman). He also made us look at him when he talked and would interrupt lectures to yell at us to do so. And you HAD to be early for events. My favorite quote by him was “To be early is to be on time, to be on time is to be late, and to be late is to be forgotten.”
Somewhere down the road, parents forgot to teach their children certain fundaments in life. And kids just never knew. My mother brought me up Catholic, with the associated morals, and they didn’t skimp in many other manners. I just wish they had gone over car care because I’m such a ditz when it comes to cars!
November 28th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Anon- huh, now you made me curious about the statistics! All I know is:
November 28th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Could you create a list of the top 10 *new* rules of etiquette? I wonder if there would be any
November 28th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Anon- huh, now you made me curious about the statistics! All I know is:
1- driving in this country will ABSOLUTELY give you road rage (and a raging headache after a 10 min drive)
2- I cant remember the last weekend when I DIDNT hear of a passenger bus going off the road/crashing/etc. It´s terrible…
And by the way, your story on the 50-year-old being knifed to death by a bunch of miscreants just for asking them to keep it down literally made me cry…
November 28th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
(Sorry for the double post, I dont know what happened with the first one! Ooops!!
)
November 28th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
The top ten new rules list would, I predict, be dominated by netiquette/PC. Er, that is, political correctness – not personal computer.
November 28th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I follow all of these – except the snobby ones…
November 28th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
I’m for the Descretion on the Street…..
GET OFF THE GODDAMN CELLPHONE YOU WORTHLESS PIECE OF “…I’M SO IMPORTANT…YADDA…YADDA…DID YOU HEAR ABOUT SO-AND-SO…YADDA….YADDA” WORTHLESS DOG-SHIT…!!!!!
….and something that should be on this list…”BEING QUIET IN A LIBRARY..!!”
What the hell ever happened to that ?
…and to that worthless “Punta” in the library that was on her f*cking cell-phone, loud enough to be heard over a chainsaw….you’re lucky I didn’t smack you upside the head with a copy of “War and Peace”….(for you literary ignorant dorks, it’s an extremely thick book).
November 28th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Scottie, (183),
Phone rage. When will be the first phonicide (if not already)? Will the perpetrator be exonerated for justified homicide?
I have a friend who deals with that shite in a way that requires a fair bit of public nerve. He reacts to the unacceptably loud side of their conversation by inventing his own *replies*, which he shouts back at them even louder. It usually shuts them up in short order.
November 28th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
As to the “youffs of all ages” making complete asses of themselves by being loud and obnoxious in public; this is one area where it really does go back to parenting.
Of course, it’s too late to turn back the clock and re-parent the idiots, and yes, some of them would have turned out badly no matter what. It’s a sad commentary on a couple of generations of parents who thought that “quality time” could make up for a “quantity of quality time”.
Sure, most households need two incomes, but there are ways to make it work. It takes ingenuity and guts, but can be accomplished.
November 28th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
segue,
In addition to your valid points, I think the dominance of youth culture has been driven by a number of other main factors. That so many adults copy it, and lack a distinct culture of their own, rather than youngsters regarding adult behaviour and culture as the model to aim at and imitate, has contributed greatly to young people’s total confidence and sense that they are now the social leaders and trend-setters. The ever more popular wave of plastic surgery sees many people no longer even content to accept the natural dignity of ageing. If many a 60-year-old can try to make itself look 20 years old again, it will.
*Rights* for the young have completely usurped responsibilty in schools, institutions, courts of law, and even to a degree the home. Applied intelligently instead of in blanket form, this would have been a notable advance for our civilisation. However, the loss of fear of punishment or retribution at almost every level has resulted in widespread contempt for authority and accepted social mores. Here in Chile, a *minor* uses a knife to rob and threaten somone in the street. They are caught by police or public-spirited passers-by, detained for a day, let go, and rob and attack with a knife within hours of release. Children in classes often do exactly what they like, and teachers have no means of control left. In the worst cases they are trying to avoid physical, never mind verbal, classroom violence directed at themselves.
Our previous Chilean president publicly more or less sanctioned young people scribbling graffiti protests anywhere in Santiago as an outlet for their frustration.
Another contributor is the enormous economic power possessed by large sections of the (urban) young these days (OK often via their parents, who know their kids face competetive peer pressure to conform materially with everyone else’s fashion and possessions).
One can only hope some of the worst causes may be addressed sooner or later, in the hope of at least checking and diminishing the more anarchic effects.
November 28th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
GTT, (179),
I notice I failed to indicate that the knifing to death of the 50- something-year-old family man took place not in Chile, but a quiet, leafy Kentish suburb when we were back visiting in England.
November 28th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
A lighter note,
In 1965 Kenneth Tynan famously became the first person to say “fuck” on air (TV). A couple of decades or so earlier the cockney comedian Max ‘Cheekie Chappie’ Miller had been banned by the BBC for ending his live radio broadcast with …
“Now for a little poetry to end on, ladies and gentlemen.
‘When roses are red, they’re ready for plucking,
When girls are fifteen they’re ready for …’ Goodnight everybody …”
Some time after Tynan, in Britain at least, the delightfully amiable Scottish comedian Billy Connolly became the king of the fuck-word on air. But he used it in such a rollickingly gentle way in context that the camera would pan onto formally dressed and respectable young schoolboys splitting their sides without embarrassment.
We were a laid back and egalitarian family by the standards both of the times and of most others we knew. My Father would occasionally come out with words such as *sod* or *bugger* under duress, or we might use them in family fun. But I only heard him say *fuck* once – when he hit his thumbnail full-on with the full force of a hammer. My Mother said his name quietly, in a reproachful tome of voice!
100% genteel as she was, having been raised in the East End, she would certainly have been aware of fuck as a swear-word from a very early age. Likewise my father, inevitably at school, I imagine, or certainly at his dockland works. I probably first became aware of it among my more worldly peers when aged about six.
And here we are on the net, in LV with WTF as a standard abbreviation. I’m sure there are some here who wouldn’t use the word and don’t like it being used. But would any actually be shocked? Others will employ itm but still prefer not to write it out in full. Perhaps it doesn’t bother the majority in the slightest, and many, including myself, will use it when they think the occasion demands. Personally, I regard words as tools, and if such words have lost their power to shock by general exposure, their mindless parrot-repetition by schoolchildren in public is sad indeed, and their violently abusive use, either verbally or as written can still be shocking. But the tone shocks, not the actual word.
Such is the remarkable history of the change of etiquette of one formerly virtually taboo word over a pretty short period.
November 28th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
was trying to figure out what put Anon’s comment into moderation…obviously not the word fuck. must’ve been all the quote symbols…hhhmm..dunno. anyway. shows now.
November 28th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
186. Anon: In addition to your valid points, I think the dominance of youth culture has been driven by a number of other main factors.
****
Indeed, Anon, and in my original post (which had gotten to the length where it could be confused for a PhD dissertation) I covered several of those factors.
You touched on a number of them, but I included the frantic need of so many parents to be “friends” with their children, rather than parents; the tendency, especially of divorced parents, to “buy” their children’s love, foregoing any kind of discipline; attempting to be “hip” by introducing marajuana and alcohol to the children in the home “in order to take the mystery” out of the experience…it went on and on.
I finally took hold of myself and deleted the bulk of the post, leaving only the core.
This is a subject on which I have strong feelings, having had to raise my own three alone, plus care for both dying parents while the children were still in grammar school. Parenting is not a job for the faint-hearted or the weak-willed. We all see the results of such parenting every day.
I don’t have a solution. I wish I did. I wish *somebody* did.
November 28th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Cyn: your comment disappeared!
November 28th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
what ever happend to men wearing hats?
I look good in a top hat, so I would love to see that make a comeback.
November 29th, 2008 at 12:33 am
segue -
i thought i saw a puddy cat. i did! i did!
ROFLMAO..
not to worry. just messing around.
sly admin humor donchaya know.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:15 am
The wedding registry thing has always driven me nuts. My girlfriend nearly bankrupted (is that a word?) herself when one of her friends got married. I asked her why she felt it was necessary to spend SO MUCH money on it.
As a bonus you should have listed cell phone etiquette. This was something I had to teach my girlfriend early in our relationship- that you don’t talk loudly on the phone in front of people at a social gathering, especially not with my family. One should excuse themself to a quiet area and talk quietly, and only if it is an important call.
November 29th, 2008 at 4:13 am
Anon: “My Mother said his name quietly, in a reproachful tome of voice!”
Her tone of voice spoke volumes!
I have just scrolled through and while Jessy mentioned her shirt riding up, no-one seems to have mentioned low-slung trousers/pants/jeans and visible underwear and/or bum crack. I am always well belted and tucked. I know what an unedifying sight my backriff, underwear and bum crack are.
November 29th, 2008 at 8:26 am
here in the good old usa, common courtesy has flown out the window. spitting, belching and farting in public are my pet peeves-if you must do these things, could you just say “excuse me”!
November 29th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
this list is pretty stupid it is like complaining about the time and clothes of weddings, does it really matter, who decided what you were supposed to wear when. and the ones about protecting women and stuff, it people did that now they would be accused of being sexist.
November 29th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
It’s good to be kind and polite as a general rule, but all these rules of etiquette are just plain outdated. Furthermore, most rules of etiquette were created by the upper class as a means to distinguish themselves from the other classes, not necessarily because it was actually polite. In the modern world today, still only the really rich follow some of these rules religiously while the rest of the world realizes common courtesy and kindness are all you need to get through the day.
November 29th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
I’m sorry, but the vast majority of these seem to be random to me. I open doors (and I have received dirty looks/comments for it) but who cares what you wear for a wedding? I don’t believe that the money rules have disappeared because we are obessed with money; they disappeared because they were stupid/sexist. If a woman owns a bank, should I not borrow from them due to courtesy?
November 29th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
I have always been one to write thank you notes. I was brought up just as the comment said, sat down as soon as I could and taught to write thank you notes. The only occasion that it was acceptable to not write a note was if the person was present when I opened the present.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
I remember once that I was trying to get into class and this big guy put his arm in front of me. I moved aside yet he pushed me back and said that it is rude and against manners to not let the ladies first, oh the hypocrisy.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:05 am
#5 is WRONG! It is considered a sign of good manners to arrive at a dinner party at a residence 10 minutes late, but nor more than 15. This affords the host the chance to run behind without having to appear they mismanage time and without suffering the embarassment or being seen frustrated or hurrying about. Being early or even on time shows a sign of rigidity and the assumption of perfection.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:20 am
I am surprised at all the people who protest about the topic of this list. They think it is pompous to show signs of good manners. The root of manners aren’t to appear better than anyone else but to be nice to others which is a value that is far from outdated but far underused. You can love punk music and dress in grunge and still have good manners just as you can dress in a top hat and have awful manners, manners are a sign of consideration of others only used by the pompous as a sign of breeding.
November 30th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Too many people here have cited arriving early as the most considerate manners.
To arrive early and wait somewhere discreetly out of sight for the correct invitation time of any private invitation is as perfect manners as arriving on time, of course. To arrive early at any public function and wait quietly in your seat saves annoying people by pushing in and past others once the event has started, or otherwise causing a disturbance. To be ready and waiting for any lecture or class should be de riguer.
However, to arrive early for a private invite is often worse manners than arriving slightly late. If your host or hosts are trying to deal with anything that needs full-stretch last-minute preparation, your early arrival may be a disastrous distraction. Someone will have to stop whatever they are doing to entertain you. The exception is an informal do, or where all concerned know one-another well. In that case the early birds can pitch in with help, or at least chatter away without distracting preparations.
November 30th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Being on time has always been an important thing to me. I was taught by my parents that its always best to be early and on time then be rude and late.
Apparently some cultures are known for their lateness.
It drives me nuts though and for the love of Kittens call if your going to be late!
November 30th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
My dad (born 1950) is a big stickler for punctuality, saying please and thank you and being a gentleman when a lady is present. He doesn’t swear too often but if he does and a female is around he will immediately apologise even if said female swears herself. The whole being punctual thing is his biggest obsession, if he says he will be somewhere a certain time he does everything he can to get there exactly on time and gets quite angry if people are late.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
I guess my parents learned parental unity.
November 30th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
on the issue of opening doors for women, I think many people are forgetting that in days gone by, doors were probably much heavier than they are now! It was probably as much practical as polite, and more to do with men and women being different (men being physically stronger) than somehow symbolizing either gender being superior.
December 1st, 2008 at 3:39 am
I totally agree with the eating around the table… when i was growing up we didn’t get dinner if we where late (7pm sharp) and noone was allowed to start eating until everyone was seated and no one could leave the table until everyone was finished eating…. and my family was not really strict on most things but this. I really value that now, and can’t think it really is important time for the family to be together.
December 1st, 2008 at 5:14 am
the thing about the man walking on the road side to protect from traffic is wrong. a man should (in a town) allow the lady to walk on the road side in order to propect her from anyone coming out of side allyways.
December 1st, 2008 at 8:10 am
I once had a relative who specified in her wedding invitations that the couple wanted money so that her and her groom could go on their honeymoon! It was such an annoying request that many family members did not attend!
December 1st, 2008 at 9:06 am
I grew up with my grandma and I’m in my early twenties now. But she always had me write thank-you notes and even today she reminds me to do it.
Also my boyfriend always opens doors for me:) I’d be dissappointed if he didn’t. I always open the door for older women and sometimes I open the door for men but only if they can’t do it themselves.
I wish more people followed rule #2:P
December 1st, 2008 at 10:32 am
I’m going to say that having a wedding registry is okay. You may not want to include it in the wedding invitation but having one is not necessarily a bad thing. The primary reason being that your guests may not know what you want. I like it when I go to a wedding with a registry because I just buy them something they want, and I know they’ll use.
What I find more rude than people not opening the door for me, or at least holding it open until I get there, are people who don’t even say thank you when you’ve opened/held the door for them to go through! It’s not like I HAD to do that for you!!
December 1st, 2008 at 11:52 am
The only item here I found myself disagreeing with was the outmoded practice of opening doors for “ladies.”
Now, in point of fact, I open doors for females, yes. I also will occasionally open them for males. I will open them for the elderly. I open them if someone’s carrying a lot of packages. Or if someone is disabled.
BUT… the idea of opening doors SPECIFICALLY for women (“ladies”) is prudishly Victorian/romantic–as was pushing in their seats at the dinner table and other such silliness which was meant to signal that they are the “weaker” sex. Such Mannerist manners came into vogue in that whacked-out age of Gothic chivalry and Romance, when it was considered reasonable for a man to pine endlessly and tragically for a women who cared not a whit for him and for whom he would nevertheless gladly trade his life, and certainly gladly spend said life, if need be, in eternal frustration and longing, wishing for her slightest glance. Nonsense. From such asinine extremism, the Victorians culled all their little rules and rigidities for how we were supposed to conduct ourselves around the “ladies”—ladies who, only a century earlier, would have scoffed and laughed at such over-the-top delicacies… as they would today. And thank god we’re much more like the Georgians, today, in that sense, than the stuffy and phony Victorians.
No no. It is good manners to open the door for someone of ANY sex if you are not in a hurry and wish to be kind, and especially if they are in some particular need. It’s simply a kindness. But to single out “ladies” for this “honor?” Nope. Sorry.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Wikipedia is not, and should not, be considered a reliable reference. IT IS A WIKI!!! This means that users are able to create and edit the pages. It is embarrassing, and a sad statement about a lot of people, that wiki sites continue to be referenced. A person looks foolish when he or she sites wikis as a reference.
December 1st, 2008 at 1:06 pm
A person looks foolish when he or she sites wikis as a reference.
Festus – no; a person looks foolish when they make ludicrous statements like yours.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:04 pm
In the old days, women couldn’t vote or work, couldn’t drive, etc. etc. That’s why these have died, because it is bullshit that I’m expected to treat a woman differently when there is no longer a distinction in wage or rights.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Also, I hold door opens for everyone and maybe get one thank you out of 7. I now say something to idiots that don’t say thank you, because the fact that we have morons walking around expecting doors to be open for them is a shame.
December 1st, 2008 at 3:21 pm
#10-I wore a tux at my wedding.It was before 6.But it was in Texas so I think im OK. #9-I always open doors for men or women.I go in first an hold the door.#8-Don`t write thankyou notes. I call.#7-Almost everyone does this.I think it`s tacky.I suprise them,if they dont like the gift they can regift it.#6-I stay till party starts to get boring or trouble starts.(We try to get the guest of honor AFU`ed first).#5-Being ex-Navy im 15 min early for everything.Almost everything that is.#4-Eating dinner with family together is important as long as they only talk during commercials.#3-Unity between spouses in front of the kids should be maintained.Otherwise the little rugrats try to play you off against each other.#2-Way to old fashioned.I always walk on the street side.#1-Neither a borrower or a lender be. Anon-4 and 3/4 fucks in one post.I believe that`s a record. he he !
December 1st, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Festus: a person looks foolish when they misuse “sites” and “cites”. I accept that you were in a state of some emotion at the time.
I have said elsewhere that I don’t cite wikipedia as a reliable reference. I cite it as a convenient reference.
December 1st, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Some of those ideas are very good, like gentlemen opening the doors for ladies. But some of those don’t make any sense, like the street walking behavior of “not drawing attention to oneself.” The parent agreeing makes sense to a point, but it almost sounds like the wife being submissive to the husband. Don’t know, that’s just my impression, but then again, I was raised by rednecks, he he he.
December 1st, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Uh, weird. Most of my post disappeared.
I have AFK since the evening of the 28th Nov. I have a lot of catching up to do!
December 1st, 2008 at 8:01 pm
In Korea, public toilets (and at work) don’t usually have toilet paper, so it is necessary to carry a small packet of tissues, or keep a toilet roll at your desk. I haven’t yet mastered the art of looking casual as I walk with some degree of urgency towards the toilet. Like, it’s really obvious!
This morning, as I was walking towards, the principal and vice-principal came the other way along the corridor. Nothing in the guide books tells you what to do when greeting the school principal with a toilet roll in your hand!
December 1st, 2008 at 8:59 pm
bigski, (219),
I’m not sure if alluding to THE word rather than saying it adds up to a 3/4. I’d be inclined to suggest that Maxie had indulged in a bit of verbal coitus interruptus there myself. I’m sure that idea would have him splitting his sides in his grave. Ho. ho!
astraya, (195),
I really felt the situation was too complex to do justice to. In fact I was old enough to appreciate it as both amusing and touching. Without a shadow of doubt, my Mum’s main concern was for his poor, smashed thumb, and her voice was shot through with concern. What she implied beyond that was that she thoroughly sympathised with his outburst, but wished he’d chosen one from our more regular family selection of forceful expletives. She may even, sweet thing, have been under the gross misapprehension that he was teaching me something I shouldn’t know. Unlikely, as she knew I had, shall we say worldly, friends. As further background, all three of us detested vulgarity for vulgarity’s sake, or violent crudity, but had a uniting sense of rollicking family fun that was very, very far from puritanical. Inter alia, it embraced such as classical Brit seaside postcard humour, the best of the Carry Ons, and the early, funnily suggestive Benny Hill, before he fell back on too much merely crude, sexist suggestiveness (which Chileans love!).
December 1st, 2008 at 9:02 pm
segue -
*burp*
sorry. comment box hungry.
December 1st, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Randall: Whoever gets to the door first should hold it open for the next guy(s). Doesn’t matter the sex. I will rush to the door if I see someone with packages, stroller, or a limp. Not so I don’t have to wait for them, but so I can open the door for him/her. You should always do this for everyone. You only do it sometimes?
December 1st, 2008 at 10:36 pm
actually (2) the men would walk on the ladies right , between building walls and the women the they are with so when ppl, b4 indoor plumbing, would empty waste and dirty water in the streets from above windows, splash back would hit the men and not the ladies.
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:23 am
gr8flddfn – no; the man would walk on the outside of the pavement (next to the road). See #81 for a few sources.
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:53 am
225. Cyn: segue -*burp* sorry. comment box hungry.
****
Oh, were you checking my comments on the “Food” list?
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:57 am
Mom:
I do EVERYTHING “only sometimes.” If I did something EVERY time, then “they” would know where and when to find me, and they’d get me.
You wouldn’t want that, now, would you?
Good, I knew you wouldn’t.
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:52 pm
My daughter works at ChickFilA, and they are required to respond “my pleasure” whenever a customer says thank you.
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Amada (221): the parental unity thing works both ways… If Mom told the child to jump down a well, then Dad shouldnt disagree either.
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:12 pm
You must be a terrible bore.
December 3rd, 2008 at 5:14 pm
I grew up following many of these, such as dinner protocol, writing thank yous and ‘asking for gifts’. However, the door is still held open for me on occasion and I feel terribly awkward and rude walking through it. I always smile and say thank you but feel completely at loss. On the other, I always open the door for those older than me, one time sadly upsetting an older gentleman who thought it was terrible that a ‘lady’ was holding the door for him.
December 4th, 2008 at 6:56 am
It has become clear from the posts of Marie and others that thoughtful gestures such as holding doors open should be extended to all and sundry. I don’t appreciate anyone allowing a door to swing back in my face and am grateful to whomever holds a door open for me, whatever their sex or age. Also, whether on foot or behind the wheel, such consideration should always be acknowledged with a ‘Thank you’, or a nod and smile, or an equivalent courteous gesture (which should NOT be capable of being mistaken for a vulgar ‘Get stuffed’!). Sadly, we should also be resigned to the fact that our politeness will be taken for granted, ignored, misunderstood, snubbed or even rejected negatively. That should not deter us. Acting considerately towards others probably helps to keep up the general ‘feel good’ level of the community, thereby reducing stress and aiding good health. It almost certainly contributes to cutting down road accidents. They call it oiling the wheels of society.
As a particular note. When we were kids we had our own privileges, like travelling free or at half price. We were also expected to give up seats to adults on public transport and in public places anywhere, never to push in front of adults; to be mindful of not crowding adults out when we were a group, least of all to use offensive language in public, etc. Nowadays in Chile, my wife and I are often forced into the street by bands of noisy schoolkids in uniform taking up the whole walk area. Sad. Well, I’m bigger than they are, and still a great deal more powerful, so I don’t hestitate to *accidentally* collide hard with them (either sex) and leave a bruise as a remember of their ill manners!
December 4th, 2008 at 6:58 am
Check: in last sentence, reminder, not remember.
December 4th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Can i just say thank you? THANK YOU! I honestly agree with all of these, i’ve always felt a little out in todays society and i blame it on my ideals of traditionalism. I love being traditional! I am only 21, but i believe a door should be opened for me, i believe in keeping certain things discreet, in arriving on time (meaning slightly early) and all the others. And please know, i am not a prude. If you need proof, go look at my comments on all the drugs list. I love my drugs, but my dealer better open the door for me **wink**
December 4th, 2008 at 9:54 am
It’s beginning to sound like ‘Lord of the Flies’.
Parents have the responsibility to teach manners (etiquette), to their young. The problem, in so many cases, is that the parents weren’t taught by their own parents. We have third generation know-nothings (real know-nothings, not the political party of the early 1800s), and as the generations increase, so does the lack of manners, the acceptance of the lack of manners.
This acceptance brought us such disasters (and near disasters) as: political correctness
no child left behind
ebonics
and many, many more.
It’s time to take back sanity.
December 4th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Haha, erika, sounds like you and i would totally get along.
December 5th, 2008 at 8:03 am
I LOVED this list. As someone who was raised with the practice of sending thank you notes promptly after Christmas, birthdays, etc, I agree that with this item completely. I have already started this practice with my young son and he delights in writing personal notes and drawing pictures to thank gift-givers.
December 7th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
is this a joke? i cant tell. Wishing wistfully for the days when people would wait for the guest of honor to leave before leaving themselves. being polite should just be treating people with basic decency and kindness. not handing out ties at weddings. its not the 1700s anymore.
December 7th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I hold doors open for people because like most people I don’t like a door closing in my face.
I extend my gratitude for gifts because if someone gives me a gift i think it’s a really nice thing for them to do and so it deserves my thanks.
I arrive on time because i, like everyone else, wouldnt like to be left waiting, so why should I keep them waiting?
I sadly do not own a dining room table, I have a small house but look forward to eating with everyone in my family at a dining room table as it will give us all a chance to catch up and face eachother whilst we are doing something we all have in common (the desire to eat). I see it as a good meeting point.
I don’t talk about money purely because I find it a bit boring and i don’t like showing off.. i’m fairly reserved by nature and dont like drawing attention to myself so i also don’t act loudly in the street..
Now.. I do none of these things because of stupid Elitist ettiquette rules, noone told me to act the way I do..
The fact that these rules of ettiquette are optional and not enforced means that they are not at all important, they are simply a drawn up set of standards that individuals can abuse in order to make themselves appear better than others. The fact that some people in this forum use the term “good breeding”, disgusts me.. Good Breeding indeed.. you are all a bunch of hybrids like myself and everyone else, get over your sad selves, your broken self esteem is testament to how rotten you are inside.
Not wearing a tuxedo before 6? lol.. and why? Do you honestly have a reason to back this up? And if your reason is “beacause it is evening wear”… says who? Get over yourself.
December 7th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
It amazes me that rules of etiquette frighten so many insecure people!
December 7th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Yes, I didn’t hand out ties at my wedding because I am terribly insecure. You’ve got me there champ
I suggest you revise your definition of insecurity before you throw words in to a sentence in a vain attempt to make yourself appear intelligent.
Good attempt though
December 8th, 2008 at 12:15 am
Anyone from the south recognize these? Most all of this list is alive and well down here.
December 8th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I’m a girl and i often find myself opening doors for guys!!!! And they don’t seem to think anything of it.
December 9th, 2008 at 7:49 am
I’m 19 and Australian, and while my parents (mainly mother) were anal about table manners, general courtesy and proper pronunciation, I never heard a thing about thank-you notes. Thank the person if they’re there, or next time you see them. Are you supposed to send a note even if they were there and you already thanked them? Sounds a bit odd.
December 9th, 2008 at 11:47 am
I hold doors for people of both genders.
No one ever thanks me.
December 9th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
You know what is really starting to grind my gears… is when I’m driving and I let someone in in front of me.. or I let them pull out of a parking lot onto the street and they don’t do that little ‘courtesy’ wave. GEEZ! Has that fallen to the wayside?
December 10th, 2008 at 2:32 am
fuck that bullshit, you pretentious shits
December 10th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
The etiquette for where a man walks, on the outside, was started long before autos were invented. The reason men were expected to walk on the outside, area nearest the street, was due to the fact that maids ofter threw the contents of the “chamber pots” out of the window into the street. Gentlemen were expected to walk furthers from the building so that the ladies could avoid the contents of the “chamber pots”. This is also the reason me used to were hats with very large brims. i.e. the hats the Three Musketeers are depicted as wearing.
December 11th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
#244 Val- Rudeness. What a very good example of lack of etiquette.
December 12th, 2008 at 12:01 am
I would say the biggest is people do not wash their hands after they go to the bathroom.
December 13th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
This is the dumbest, most out-dated article I have ever read.
December 14th, 2008 at 5:55 am
of course we realize all of these (and all behavioral norms) are culturally bound, right? the comments about differences between the north and south in the states, and of punctuality in north vs. south america make this clear.
that said, i have always felt strongly about the door thing! as a female i will open and hold doors for anyone and don’t mind if someone does the same for me simply because they reached the door first. however, if i knew or felt they were only doing it because i’m female it would make me angry, it makes me angry just thinking about that! it directly implies the woman is too weak and fragile to even open a door.
December 14th, 2008 at 10:38 am
255. lo:…it directly implies the woman is too weak and fragile to even open a door.
****
No, it doesn’t. It is a courtesy, nothing more. It implies nothing about the fragility of the woman, it implies she is worthy of being treated with respect.
If being treated with respect makes you angry, you have greater issues than etiquette.
December 19th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Screw this list. I’m an Australian, and there’s no way I’m going to put on expensive clothes to eat dinner. I don’t even have expensive clothes. And I’ll hold doors open for anyone if I’m walking in front of them, gender regardless. And there’s also nothing wrong with teaching children what cynicism is, it expands their minds. And screw weddings, they’re overblown nonsense. You don’t need to get married to have kids or to live with somebody anymore.
December 20th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Translation: “wah wah i’m old”
March 11th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
This is a great list. Unfortunately, the only remaining area in this country with any remaining etiquette or semblance of manners is the deep south. I am sure this will cause quite a stir, but many of the items on this list are oberved there only.
April 2nd, 2009 at 2:37 pm
In the philippines, we have our own version of showing courtesy and also a sign of etiquette. Younger people are usually “blessed” by older ones (usually their grandparents). As a symbol of the said blessing, the young lad usually places his/her forehead on the hand of their grannies. it’s gone nowadays though which in part is a good thing because sometimes the hands of our grandparents smells like tobacco…LOL…
April 7th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Wow…. amazing how many people are so emotional over this list. Personally I disagree with #10, but I don’t get all angry with it.
Interesting
Anyway, I think etiquettes are ways to spread good behaviour by making them into social rules.
Example; I used to open doors just for me, then one day a closing door almost left a mark on my face. From that day on I open door for everyone – especially children and women; because some doors are heavy and can be very hard to open by them.
ThankYou Notes: these simple acts – thank yous, smiles, politeness; can bring joy to others. It can works wonders, yet they are VERY simple to do. So, why not?
I taught all my children to be thankful, so they bring joy to anyone around them. Instead of making others miserable.
Discretion – I’m very discreet, but it’s in my nature; when I walk, I do so in autopilot mode, while my mind is busy with other things. A friend could pass by in front of me and I still won’t recognize them
My bad …
Anyway, I’ve learned that sometimes people doesn’t want to be bothered, even when they’re in public space. So unless they’re body language gave the okay signal; I won’t shout and call my friend I spotted across the street.
Leaving at the right time – I’ve been organizer of parties/events for many times, and it’s VERY exhausting near the end. So when people realize this and went back home, it’s truly a relief, and we’re very grateful for that.
Re: gift registry — here in Indonesia we have it simple; we gave them envelope with cash in it. This way, we can put any amount we can afford (the receiver won’t know who gave which envelope), and the receiver can purchase anything they need.
No hassle, and no awkward feelings.
Parental Unity – the quote might be rather extreme, he he. But it is indeed very important. This shows a lot; that we respect our partner, we can’t be divided-and-conquered by the kids, and we’re well-organized. These all helps in our effort to build a good family.
Basically, everything here really is “do as you wish others treat you” and simple common sense. Which is good.
But people are starting to ditch this. We ended up with more and more people thinking just about themselves.
So the society started to crumble ………
April 12th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
It is appalling how many people lack basic manners, and even more appalling how many people thiknk it’s okay! Most people these days just disgust me on all sorts of levels…hygiene, conversation (especially nosiness and interruption), lack of general common sense, etc.
And I live in the “Deep South”. I’m not overly impressed…
April 13th, 2009 at 12:41 am
Like warrrreagl said, a lot of what’s in the list is still practiced in Southern states…as well as saying Yes/No Ma’am/Sir. We had a transfer student from Pennsylvania in middle school who got in trouble a lot for not respecting the teachers’ wishes!
I write Thank You notes, too! Rude not to.
May 10th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
I am a bit of a contradictory animal, being both old-fashioned in many of my manners, and yet completely progressive when it comes to acceptable social norms. Since I believe my opinions to be important, whether you like them or not, I’ll go through these:
10. Men’s Wedding Clothing
First off, I believe that the etiquette of a wedding should be determined by those planning the wedding, and not by national custom. The wedding is the celebration of the marriage between two people (these days, in a world of immediate families, the alliance forged between two families by a marriage is no longer important, a fact which is manifested in all of the negative pop-culture references to dislike of in-laws), and thus should be personal to them. I remember seeing articles about Star Wars and Shrek themed weddings, and I think those would be much more fun, memorable and meaningful than formal weddings. Not everyone would go that far, of course, but certainly those being married should be able to determine for themselves what sort of dress is appropriate at their own wedding.
Secondly, formal men’s wear differs from region to region, and should NOT be standardized according to centuries-old British fashion. This is a new century, with new fashions, and most of the viewers of this site aren’t British. Here in Maine, for instance, men’s formal wear includes pretty much anything with a collar, and you’d be hard-pressed to find any lobstermen who own a suit, let alone a tuxedo or morning jacket. Such overly formal wear is seen as a custom of those from “Away” (i.e.: rich tourists and summer people), and thus are avoided due to association with the “enemy,” so-to-speak.
9. Opening The Door
I am a feminist, in so far as I believe that men and women should be treated as equals. I’m also polite and considerate, and I open the door for EVERYONE, regardless of sex, age, etc. Saying that men should open the door for women IS sexist.
8. Writing Thank-you Notes
While I hate actually writing them, I agree totally with this practice. My family does it.
7. Asking for Gifts
I totally agree with this one. I think this should also include the expectations of gift cards for people on holidays, which is a “custom” created by gift card companies. I hate gift cards, refuse to buy them for Valentine’s or Mothers’ Day, and I hate when people act like I’M the impolite one for not sending them a card, when in fact they are the ones making impolite demands on me. I’ll make a personal card myself for a special occasion, but it won’t be because Hallmark tells me to.
6. Leaving At The Right Time
While I agree that this is an important consideration, I don’t think in today’s society this is possible any longer. There are too many time constraints placed on everyone these days, and not in the same time periods. If you have somewhere to be, I would not feel offended if you left the party early, in fact I’d feel like a dick if you felt obligated to stay when you shouldn’t have. However, just showing up for a bit, grabbing some food/drink and leaving for no reason other than you don’t want to be there IS rude. At least pay your respects to the host(s) and try to socialize a bit before respectfully taking your leave of the event.
5. Arriving on Time
Pretty much the same as #6. I’m bad with timing myself, and I’d never feel insulted if someone showed up late, as long as they had good intentions about it. However, showing up a few hours in to the party, already shitfaced drunk and looking for free booze is NOT cool, in ANY situation.
4. Dinner
I agree with some dinner etiquette, but not with others. I agree about a set time for family dinners, and that it should be done at a table with everyone included, but I don’t agree in dressing up for it (you’ll just get food stains on your good clothes). Formal dinners should be done only for special occasions. As for other dinner etiquette, some is proper (like chewing with your mouth closed) and some is completely unnecessary and, in some cases, I think are actually rude (like saying people have to be served from youngest to oldest, when multiple dishes are on the table and everyone could be serving at once). Besides, dinner etiquette is also a regional thing, entirely based on local culture, and should again NOT be set to centuries-old British aristocratic custom.
3. Parental Unity
….Yes and no. I believe that children shouldn’t be given false impressions of parental perfection, as this will lead to disillusionment and rebellion when they become old enough to realize how full of BS their parents actually are. However, parents should be seen as in agreement, especially in internal family matters, because signs of fighting between parents can be really hard on kids. If there is a dispute, instead of arguing it out in front of the kids (which can cause emotional damage), the parent who disagrees should ask to move to a private location so that the point can be debated without fear of misinterpretation by the child.
Also, in extreme cases, such as verbal, physical and sexual abuse, a submissive parent doing nothing to stop the abusive behavior of the dominant parent will result in a child feeling that BOTH parents are complicit in the acts of abuse, giving them no one to protect them and no one to trust. This can be incredibly emotionally damaging to a child, almost equally as damaging as the actual abuse itself.
2. Discretion on the Street
I agree with the part about discretion: no one in public needs to hear about your personal business. However, I think our society has become extremely impersonal and unfriendly, and I am a firm believer of saying hello to people as I walk, and will even do so to total strangers. I find it’s a friendly thing to do, and most people will actually smile or say hello back, although (because I am a bearded 20-something male) some people react as though I’m some creepy delinquent. It makes me happy when strangers do the same, and I think its extremely rude when you see someone you know on the street and they don’t even acknowledge your presence.
1. Money Talks
I agree with everything but the “lady” bit. Back then, women weren’t supposed to have material possessions if married, and so a man asking a woman for money wasn’t rude because it was impolite to the lady, it was rude because it implied that man was worse at handling money than the woman. This would challenge the basic assumption of Western culture at the time: that men were more rational, and thus better at handling money, than women, and therefore should have all rights to the estate in a marriage. Thus, the act of borrowing money from a woman was dishonorable to the man, and any dishonor to the lady was only by association with the man’s dishonorable act. It was another mechanism by which men controlled women, and based on a completely sexist way of looking at the world. I am GLAD this custom is dying.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:04 am
I just read this and to a certain extant I agree with basic manners like thank you notes and families dining together (when possible). The majority of etiquette rules, to me, are pretentious b.s. Who gives a frak about the difference between a salad fork and dinner fork and where it is placed? The one about what sort of suit to wear at a wedding dependent upon the time of day would only be offensive to a fashionista. There are bigger concerns in this life than some obscure etiquette faux pas. maybe I’m showing my blue collar background with this, but truly, who cares about this in day to day life besides the basics? Besides, etiquette differs from region to region. For example, most Western cultures have you say “excuse me’ if you belch, while in some other cultures, belching , especially after a meal, is a compliment, and some find it an insult if you don’t.
May 14th, 2009 at 5:35 am
I opened the door for an older lady the other day and after thanking me, she said ‘you know, you just don’t see that happening anymore.’ What a sad state of our society. I replied to her that it wouldn’t disappear as long as I was around. I think it is important and shows respect. Heck I even open the door first and let other guys ahead of me. I’m not in that much of a hurry that I’ve got to get in first.
May 20th, 2009 at 12:09 am
for number 2 my social studies teacher once told me that a long time ago, i’m thinking the black plague times, people would defecate in a bucket and then throw it out the window, this could be from the first story as well as the second story or higher, so it was ladies and not gentlemen who walked on the road side of the sidewalk so if someone emptied their bucket without checking the sidewalk first it would be the man who would “catch” it
June 1st, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Thank you for this list! I plan on following the majority of them.
The ones that I think are socially ruled out and can possibly go are the thank you -notes-, being discreet on the street, and dropping names in a conversation.
I say thank you notes can go because I think it’s just as acceptable for a thank you phone call or personally thanking them. Hearing the person’s voice should be just as good as a written letter. Even e-mail I think should be considered thank you enough. Not saying thank you, expecting gifts, and making gift registries I think is horrible. All my life as a kid I’ve always found it hard to make even a Christmas list like everyone else does.
Being discreet on the street.. well while you might do something to draw attention to yourself, no one cares anymore. New York is a pretty good example of this.
Finally, not dropping names I feel is too impersonal. That’s really my only problem with it.
Everything else is gold. The main thing I applaud you for, though, is parental agreement. Disagreement in the parenting world is a huge mistake. It discredits everything about either parent and makes them seem mentally weak. It also makes it look as if neither parent really thought about the situation at hand.
June 4th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Number 10 is pompous and pretentious. Anyone who is offended by a groom wearing a tuxedo before 6pm is a victim of meaningless norms that ultimately benefit no one.
Five through nine are fine, though I’d suggest that EVERYONE make an effort to hold doors for the person behind them, regardless of the respective genders involved.
Four: Sitting down for a family dinner on Sunday night is fine. Expecting everyone to do that every night, though, is unrealistic. There’s nothing wrong with eating dinner in front of the TV. If family members want to spend time together, let them do it on their own terms, don’t force them into it.
Three makes sense, at long as you remain within reason.
Two: Being polite and civil in public is wonderful, but not using anyone’s names is silly, as is the outdated custom of men and women having a “place” on the sidewalk.
1: Repaying debts = yay. Never borrowing from a female = outdated, and rather sexist towards both genders. Discussing money, things you own and the cost = perfectly acceptable in casual situations. Namedropping = rude, you’re right about that one.
I also have a hard time believing that people weren’t competitive about accumulating wealth and possessions in the past. In fact, history is full of examples of people boasting through material wealth.
June 24th, 2009 at 4:10 am
If I ever get married, IK WILL have a registry because people tend to buy the same gifts. Like my cousin’s wedding for example; she got 5 sets of the same brand of pots and pans. Of course, my registry wouldn’t have gifts that cost an arm and a leg. A small household appliance and books perhaps. As long as it prevents people from buying me half a dozen of the same pots!
July 15th, 2009 at 8:16 am
This is so true! I miss the days when gentlemen were gentlemen and ladies acted like ladies. Call me old-fashioned, but I think guys who still elect to wear hats could also observe the etiquette that accompanies them: take them off indoors!
I’m giving a speech on weird etiquette in a couple of days. I’m looking for ideas for quirky havits and odd rules of etiquette. If you know of any entertaining examples, I’d appreciate it!
Allow me to point out though that it’s Prince Harry, not Henry…
July 21st, 2009 at 4:32 pm
I think your discretion on the street comment is, if not wrong, hopelessly misguided. One of the nicest things we have (or had) is a sense of community on the street, of being able to meet and converse in the public sphere. That is not something we should dismiss in the name of “manners”.
August 11th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
thank you for this information it was good and i need it this information for school.
August 14th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Just stumbled across this list, a perfect 10/10 for me. I was raised in a classical home with high expectations in regards to social interaction. When I got married last year, my thank you notes were sent out before the ink had dried on our certificate (and though we were registered, we did not mention it in our invitations. The registry information was available through either of our mothers and grandmothers).
I think several posters have brought this up, but I cannot stand people who talk and text in public. It doesn’t bother me on the bus, so long as they are quiet and brief. People who talk while in line at a store or coffee shop, however, or while walking in the street (and bumping into me!!) or while *driving* really upsets me. To me, it says “I am more important than any of you, and therefore my phone call is more important than your comfort or safety”.
Also, people with very loud stereos or powerful subwoofers who drive down quiet streets at night irk me. Loud music is fine on the highway or in the business/retail parts of town, but once you reach the residential section, turn it down!!!
August 19th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Invitations and etiquette question. Sometimes when I invite my friend to meet for dinner, she will invite someone else to join us without checking with me first. In the latest case it was someone I had never met. It would be different if my friend were the one issuing the invitation, but since I initiated the invitation I feel that it was rude.. and I don’t care to spend the meal talking to someone I don’t know! How do I get my point across without offending her?
August 21st, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Haha, these are the most esoteric, inane bullshit norms and rules of anal retentive crackerdom.
White society is done for!
*dances*
August 24th, 2009 at 5:19 am
Whilst I follow a fair few of these etiquette rules, I do believe that times have changed and most of these rules have become quite dated and for the better. Not talking to strangers? I think that’s ridiculous for obvious reasons..Some of the nicest people I have ever met where complete strangers.
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:45 am
Not that anyone will read the 280ish comment on a lost manners list but I’d like my take. The wedding attire entry is silly. Especially when you consider that a Catholic wedding starts in the afternoon so they can hold mass. Expecting the wedding party to change attire is unreasonable, even 150 years ago and for the well heeled.
I also disagree with the late 15 minutes and you’re eating in the kitchen bit. It was customary to receive your guests in a parlor/living room allowing everyone a cocktail and a once about the room before sitting. If eating at someones house NEVER be early, even by 5 minutes. Being right on time is being early. Give the host the margin of error hosting you deserves. Anything else looks rigidly eager. 10 minutes late will do, 15 min. at max.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:54 pm
i guess i’m a bit late on commenting on this list, however…
A lot of these are still practiced in the south (southeastern US, specifically.) Men almost ALWAYS hold the doors open, even if you’re not accompanying them. Thank you notes are standard and talking about money is faux pas. Of course this doesn’t apply to everyone in the south, but it is still pretty prominent.
And as a side note… I have always thought it was so sweet when a guy walked on the street-side of the sidewalk. I mean, the odds of being hit by a car while on the sidewalk are slim, but it is the thought that counts.
October 13th, 2009 at 1:37 am
@jck1074 (2): @hjolly (279): @hjolly (279): @brosiusjb (278): @Carlie (274): @Miss Silver (270):
October 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Actually, the street walking custom used to be that the man walked on the building side of the sidewalk to protect the woman from the emptying of chamber pots. So that photo could still be considered proper etiquette
October 17th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Hello everyone
Like most here, I have a say on the Open Door point too!
I think one is a gentleman when he opens doors for the ladies.
But. (xD)
I’ll say that a CONSIDERATE person will do for both the sexes!
I mean, say…What if the gentleman sees the lady’s grandad behind her? Shouldn’t he wait and keep the door open for the grandad too?
Even though different cultures/religions have different point of views on manners, I think it’s a great list, anyways!
(JFrater: I’ve always liked your lists!)
October 26th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Awesome list. I think manners more than anything need to be brought back into our society. Thank you for the information.
November 11th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
In Texas we still open doors for the ladies (and they like it too)!
November 13th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Another one is that men have to stand up to shake hands if sitting and women don’t. Never used, never really heard of.
November 14th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
I’m sure it was mentioned before, however in a time past te gentleman would walk on inside of the walkway because waste was often thrown from buildings. So the photo with “fakes” is actually correct, I believe.