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Your View: Is the US Ready for a Black President?

In November this year, the people of the United States will go to the polls to elect a new president. For the first time in history, one of the contenders is black. Obama has now won the support of the Democratic party and the lead up to the elections is looking to be fascinating. The whole world is watching to see what the Americans will do. The fact that the US might elect a black president this year leads us to our your view question – is the US ready for it? Have the racial troubles of the 60s now receded far enough in to the past for people to accept the idea? Please remember to attack points of view and not the people speaking. Ad hominem attacks are a signal of defeat in a debate.

Obama
Is the US Ready for a Black President?

My answer: Yes. I believe the majority of Americans are ready for a black president. I think the American love of politics and their desire to see integrity in the office means that they will vote for the best man for the job – regardless of race or gender – and I think that this year the election will prove that.

Listverse Staff

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  • mollyflo123

    Yes. And i hope he wins!

  • Riley

    I hope so… or things have not progresses as far as they should have by now.

  • appie

    What’s wrong with black???..

    Competency, integrity, and your credibility is not measured by the color of your skin..

  • appie

    Racist!.
    Should I say,we’re Lucky coz were white and they’re not coz their black??
    Where is equality?

  • I didn’t think I would need to say it – but I will delete any racist comments.

  • appie: who is racist? My response to the question suggested that Americans will vote based on integrity not skin color.

  • appie

    yeah right jfrater..
    I was just bothered “somebody’s” comment..
    well, I think, it’s not a good idea blogging dirty comments here right?
    this is for smart people not for uneducated ones..

  • appie: indeed – which is why I deleted his comment.

  • paradoxo

    I definitely think that the majority of Americans, especially younger ones don’t even consider the color of his skin; we are ready for a black president. However, and I hate to say this, but I think he would have a higher than average chance at being assassinated. There are certain groups in this country that would definitely attempt it. It would take a long long time for that wound to heal. I try not to think about it…

  • paradoxo: let’s hope not – I think he has great potential.

  • appie: okay – it is fine – I saw the comment and deleted it. Let’s move on now :)

  • appie

    Sorry..
    My fault..
    I can’t recall his name..
    I should have placed his name..
    I’m not against black people..
    I have lots of Black American friends…
    I love Martin Luther King JR.

  • bigski

    Speaking as a lifelong democrat i dont think Obama is qualified to be president. George Bush has just about ruined the chances for McCain to be elected president because he,s the one of the worst presidents in history and Americans are ready for a change. Im gonna do what the late George Carlin say,s im not gonna vote for anyone that way you cant blame me when they [email protected]#k up i didn,t vote for him.

  • Tara

    I really hope so. But I do fear he will not make it the whole term, he will almost assuredly have several assassination attempts. In all probability before the election happens, but I do hope, I hope very much.

  • Kevin

    To me, race has nothing to do with competence, but in all honesty, there are a lot of idiots out there. There are too many white supremacist nut-jobs in this world and if Obama is elected, I worry about what might happen. I think that the majority of Americans may be ready, but all it takes is one idiot.

  • islanderbst

    Like comment 10, I believe the majority of younger Americans are ready for a black President. Sadly tho, there is a very powerful group that wont allow this to happen: Older male Republicans. Just watching some of the cable news shows alone is disgusting; from Neil Cavuto of Fox to Lou Dobbs of CNN, these “news men” have been disparaging Obamas every move. I am sure there will be either some very nasty personal attacks on Obama or some funny business in the voting. Hopefully, there will be enough support to overcome that.

    Me: White male in his 30’s who will be voting Obama :)

  • Yes, the US is ready for a black president. The only problem is that liberals aren’t ready for a conservative black president just as conservatives aren’t ready for a liberal black president. Party lines are much more divisive than race. Thomas Sowell would make a much better president than Obama. Obama’s not even facing issues with being (half) black or having a muslim-sounding name, he’s facing adversaries who question his judgement and ability to run the most powerful nation on the planet. It’s got nothing to do with race and he knows it. You might as well ask if America is ready for a female president or a one-armed president or a president in a wheelchair. We’re stuck in a rut of older white male presidents because A. it’s expensive to run for president so rich people tend to do it B. that’s what our politicians tend to look like. The political arena is open to one and all. It’s just like the sciences. Women aren’t highly represented because there aren’t a lot of women who go into the field. It’s only a matter of time before someone who looks different becomes our president, and naturally that person will be applauded and go down in history as the first “whatever” be it black guy or chick or jewish person. But I bet you whoever it is will be just another politician-they’ll just look different doing the job.

  • paradoxo

    I think that “qualified” is a very subjective term. A lot of “qualified” and experienced candidates have made huge mistakes in foreign policy, the economy, their choice of staff, etc. Lincoln had very little experience but made smart decisions (the sorts of smart decisions one would have to make in order to go from being a state senator to presidential candidate in 6 years) and inspired people for generations to come with his speeches.

  • And as far the assasination angle, any idea how many people want Bush dead?? I don’t think Obama would have any higher than average odds.

  • JFrater ~ Can I ask why you think Obama would make such a great president? What have you been reading/hearing/watching?

  • dahnz

    i would love to say that America is ready, but I dont think they are.
    Honestly, some red-neck would assasin him before he reaches the whitehouse… i would love to be proved wrong.
    Alot of America is ready, but not ALL of America…

  • rushfan: I like him based upon the speeches I have heard him give. I don’t agree with all his politics, but I do like what he says generally.

  • jfrater ~ will you be watching his highly-anticipated acceptance speech tonight?

  • The Dread Pirate Bob

    I believe that there are parts of this country that are not ready for there to be a black president and there are parts that are. Its interesting that I hear many older educated black people say that they don’t think that we are ready to have a black president yet. One woman I met during a hospital stay not too long ago who was a teacher said ” its only been forty years since they killed Dr King and I don’t believe things have changed enough that someone won’t kill Mr Obama too” and that echoes the sentiment of the others in the demographic I have spoken to.

    I think more importantly that Obama is not ready to be president so it isn’t really a relevant discussion. For the record I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican and I would vote for the candidate that best represents my beliefs which is neither of the major party candidates this election.

    In the two party system if neither candidate fits your views if you vote you’ve lost, so the only way to protest is to not vote which is what I will do this year just as I did in 2004,

  • JUNQUE MAN

    YES, AMERICA IS READY–Just not O bama–Ineptness shouldn’t be the strong point for electing a president.

  • rushfan: I will – though I didn’t know about it until mentioned it :)

  • Kreachure

    In my opinion, it’s simply about the US being ready for a DIFFERENT kind of president. A non-white, non-senile, non-“let’s go to war forever”, non-awfully-Republican president.

    And the answer is hopefully yes, FOR THE SAKE OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.

  • x420psykoticx

    I will say America is ready, but I also want to mention that a lot of the Barack support is mainly hype..

    It’s becoming a fad to like him and many people don’t even know what his platform is.

  • dave4248

    Yes we are. I don’t this THIS particular gentleman is the best candidate running this year. But I’m glad to see that we as a nation have come far enough to give him consideration. The same thinking goes for a woman president. Remember the men who’ve held this job were from a pretty narrow group,….even amongst white men. We’ve had only one Catholic president, only one bachelor, only one who didn’t graduate college, only one divorced and none whose surname originated from outside of Northwestern Europe.

  • zionred

    definitely, just not this huckster

  • Daniel

    “Portrayal Of Obama As Elitist Hailed As Step Forward For African Americans”

    Another great report from the Onion.

    http://www.theonion.com/content/video/portrayal_of_obama_as_elitist

  • Another Daniel

    “I think the American love of politics and their desire to see integrity in the office means that they will vote for the best man for the job.”

    Seriously? You believe the American people (of whom I am one) vote for the “best man for the job”? I think most people vote for the person who speaks to the single issue they like and forget the rest. You’ll also have those who will vote for him just because he’s black which has been seen in areas where he received 99% of the black vote. Just sayin.

  • Jill W.

    I think it’s ridiculous that the question even has to be asked. Race shouldn’t have any relevance. Experience should. Obama has no experience or unique qualifications; I really don’t see what the big deal is about him.

    Politicians are ALL douchebags. Each and every one of them. Douchebaggery sees no color.

    On race, in case it DOES matter, here’s a snippet from an article by Dr. Jack Wheeler:

    >He is half-white, which he
    > rejects. The rest of him is mostly Arab, which he hides but
    > is disclosed by his non-African Arabic surname and his
    > Arabic first and middle names as a way to triply proclaim
    > his Arabic parentage to people in Kenya . Only a small part
    > of him is African Black from his Luo grandmother, which he
    > pretends he is exclusively.
    >
    > What he isn’t, not a genetic drop of, is
    > ‘African-American,’ the descendant of enslaved
    > Africans brought to America chained in slave ships. He
    > hasn’t a single ancestor who was a slave. Instead, his
    > Arab ancestors were slave owners. Slave-trading was the main
    > Arab business in East Africa for centuries until the British
    > ended it.
    >
    > Let that sink in: Obama is not the descendant of slaves, he
    > is the descendant of slave owners.

  • Canuck

    I just hope that if he loses everyone won’t cry “racist”, especially if he loses for legitimate reasons (as a Canadian though I’m too busy following our own politics to really know anything about his platform, I just hate when someone cries “racist!” or “sexist!” at everything)

  • Sarzella

    I’m Irish so the election doesn’t have any direct impact on me, but if I had the opportunity to vote in the US elections – Obama! Obama! Obama!

    I think the majority of the US is probably ready for a black president. He’s a personable, intelligent, thoughtful man – am I just naive in thinking that his skin colour is trivial in comparison to those admirable traits?

    One thing that worries me though is those Republican voters in the Bible belt. McCain still has a strong army of support behind him. Although I’ve never been to the US, I am aware that racism among the Bible belt is still a problem (correct me if I’m wrong).

    As the US is the only superpower left in the world, the election impacts the rest of the world greatly. If Obama is elected, it will show great progression in the US society from the days of Rosa Parks. The rest of the world will notice and appreciate it.

    Plus, he’s not a gun-toting war nut :-)

  • MT

    I would prefer we had a “Blacker” president. But ready or not here he comes. I will vote for him and hope he wins and that the legacy of the Bush’s is one of total shame, incompetence and stupidity

  • JB

    Morgan Freeman has built the road

  • Sarzella

    P.S. FYI – part of his caucasian side is from Moneygal, County Offaly in Ireland.

    Just a random piece of info for ya!

  • Cambrex101

    Jill W.
    I understand what you’re saying, but you can’t expect people to really care that he is descended from slave owners. So are most people!
    Slavery has been around forever and most every country has slavery in it’s past, so it’s highly unlikely that ANYBODY isn’t descended from slave owners.

  • Cambrex101

    Oh, and my opinion is YES.
    Race doesn’t matter.

    What I’m really hoping for is a president who is not Christian in my lifetime.
    They don’t have to be Agnostic, Atheists or even Jews (like me). I just want to see that America can stop automatically distrusting anybody who isn’t Christian.
    Don’t deny it, because Obama’s religion has been a major issue that people discuss.

  • ringtailroxy

    wow. never thought i’d say this… but i actually don’t have much to say.

    i am not ready for a black president…or a white president… or a yellow, red, purple, orange or chartreuse president!

    i am ready for a president who can begin to repair much of financial damage our country has sustained over the past 8 years… i make (practically) the same amount of money that i did back in 2005, but i am paying 2$ more a gallon in gas. milk costs over 3$ a gallon, and let’s just not go there.

    my properties went into foreclosure, because i made bad judgment calls and thought i could turn them around quickly, but the bottom began to drop out of the real estate market by then. i have had 2 friends return from Iraq, one with a TBI and is now disabled, and he fights every month for a measly $1,250 to live off of!

    we are still involved in a war that not only do many Americans oppose, but a great many don;’t even know why we are involved!

    i am ready for a president, and administrations, who doesn’t think the answer to our energy crisis is to open off-shore drilling that has been banned by congress every year since the 1980’s…

    i am ready for a president that understands that instead of being the global bully, we need to be the global educator, and lead by example…

    and i’m ready for a president that stops pandering to big corporations and encourages the small business owners, who are just getting annihilated by such corporations as WalMart, VCA of America, and others.

    since Billy Graham socially declared that to “Be a Christian & American” was synonymous with “voting Republican”, there are an untold multitude of backwater, un-educated, un-informed individuals in this country, who only take their awareness of politics or public events from the snippets on the nightly news, who would never desire to see anyone other than a white, American, Protestant male in the White House, that will vote for anyone Republican, so long as it is a white male who talks openly about his religion.

    those people, i fear, outnumber those of us whom are more liberal, see beyond the immediate gains, and understand that it will take a helluva lot longer than 8 years to turn this country around. If Obama becomes president, i believe he will lay down a great foundation for other future presidents to build upon and repair all the economic damage, and national disgust many Americans (such as myself!) feel about the previous 8 years…

    i have nothing more to say. really.

    ringtailroxy

  • ThisIsAStupidDiscussionTopic

    We’ll see…?

  • cheese

    I would hope to think that in modern times now candidates should be based on policy rather then of superficial natures such as skin colour or networks… on the other hand there is no need for positive discrimination if he is unsuitable.

    however in this case, i believe people are most definitely ready for a black president.. i also hope that this inspires people of different cultures and races to step up and try to help change the world knowing that no judgement will be made purely on race.

  • Pwnstar

    I think most of America is, but most is probably still not enough.In the current situation, I would definately vote for Obama, although out of all the candidates he 3rd or 4th on my book.A better question would be if America was ready for a non-centrist president, like Paul, or Kucinics (probably spelled wrong).

  • Riya B.

    Hell yeah,America is ready for a black president!!! It’s time for change,man! On a serious note, the way Bush has been running the country these past eight years has put quite a damper on McCain’s run,him being a republican, but only time will tell. I was also rooting for Hillary for vice president,but oh well, Biden’s good to.

  • I just found very hilarious image that kind of relates to this topic. Check it out it is very funny.

  • Ryan

    Why the hell should america care what race the president is, I just want someone to turn this country around Bush fucked it up.

  • Coming from the South, I’d like to say we are past “racial” issues, but I don’t think America is ready for a black president any more than America is ready for a woman president…we are too set in our ways. Although “change” sounds good to us in these time of economic hardship, I think it will boil down to race rather than issues.

  • FallenMorgan

    I believe most intelligent Americans are ready for a black president. I don’t care if your black, gay, or atheist, as long as you don’t push your social policies on me, and you make America a better place.

    I don’t like Obama or McCain though.

  • jerky

    Why is everyone so head over heels for Obama? because he promises hope and change? or because he’s black? This is complete bullshit. People always give me the typical reason why they’re voting for Obama and it’s either because “that’s what everyone else is doing” or because he has “hope and change”. It’s complete non-sense, as if no one is educated enough to draw their own conclusions about candidates than walking with the whole crowd off a cliff. I’m sick of hearing about this “hope and change”…it reminds me of the movie idiocracy where they watered the plants with brawndo(a sports drink) because it had electrolytes and that’s what plants crave, which of course is totally wrong…Why are you watering the plants with brawndo? “because it has electrolytes”…do you even know what electrolytes are? “yea, it’s what plants crave”…..i think i rest my case..

  • Shlufi

    Is the US Ready to stop asking ridiculously racist questions that distract the voter from truly important issues?

  • FallenMorgan

    Vote for Barr or Nader

  • Diogenes’ dummy

    i dont know. two party elections dont cut it for me. ultimately the path will go for who ever’s got the money and the gall to make it through to this point and those with enough political “got yo back” behind them, be it a blue gorilla with a swagger and wearing a 10gallon hat , riding a blindfolded ostrich , throwing out lollipops and ipods or someone with the voice, that is able to get across that “HOPE” tagline without it seeming like it was really created by Shepard Fairey, who’s made his mullah and street cred with his “OBEY” propaganda stlye poster grafitti..
    Tell em what they wanna hear now.
    it’s the time for high drama now. showtime!
    the trail was like a recieving antenea.
    ” might need to adjust that one a tad to the right- or is it the left?”
    “add some tin foil to that one there”
    kiss the babies and give a golly handshake to the elders. eat a burger, play some pool, drink a beer with the regular shmo.
    Stevie Wonder singin ole time faves with barack additions, while a bunch of little american flags wave around
    god bless our country
    the way the news plays it here is leaning on the pop side of obama.
    the cool one
    good luck Micky C!
    The white guy on tee vee, talkin to the black woman on tee vee, “Its a different kinda obama and accent you’ll see and hear when he’s givin a speech in a southern black church.”
    Al Gore talkin now to Obama fans. He gave his “go obama” bit–cheers expected places–, now he gives his “climate crisis” talk, and the good feeling of the crowd is trying to sober up.

    but where’s the racism- hidden, erased or pushed back, as it can overshadow. The LA riots were just 15 years ago.thats not that long ago. and that was a pressure pot purculating for a while..for sure.
    racism still exists in different ways worldwide, but the majority of voters here are not overt racists and the true hate mongers are like speckles of gore we wish not to look at straight in the face.
    hypothetical “joke” here: what if Obama grows an afro in the white house…well, what would happen then?
    Where’s the tough as nails jornalist that goes into the dark jungle of the mind of america and record the howl?

  • FallenMorgan

    Jerky – Conservatives don’t want what’s best for freedom and democracy.

    Diogenes’ dummy, agreed 100%. I hate the two party system, it’s more about money than anything else.

  • Diogenes’ dummy

    ringtailroxy for president!

  • JB

    51. Shlufi:

    I think is not an american who is asking, but you’re right.

    People shall not vote Obama because a black president will make the country seem more advanced.

    Unfortunetly, for many people in some places of the States seems that skin color is still an important issue.

  • ringtailroxy

    Diogenes’ dummy ~

    thank you for the nomination, but i must decline. you see, i am certainly NOT qualified to run for presidency.

    obviously the entire country has gone totally downhill since the Reagan era… a time of big spending and the Cold War. Then it was Saddam Hussein and the Gulf War. then it was Bin laden and the Iraq War… do i detect a trend?

    now, I am well aware of Clinton’s part in the bombing of South Africa…. but i don’t believe it caused so vile an economic crisis as this war does today.

    and whatever happened to the communal love of all americans? according to my grandfather, during WWII,things like War Bonds & Victory Gardens where the norm, and the american public eagerly made sacrifices so the soldiers had fresh food, supplies, and raw materials…nowadays, you can’t pry a teenage girl’s hands from her text phone, the general american attitude is “it’s not my problem” or “i don’t want to get involved” and now the “Green” movement is trendy, and i fear it is a fad, such as Rubik’s Cubes, Tomaguchi, Clear Sodas, and mainstream Alternative Rock!!!

    no more. seems others LVers think i ramble…

    rtr

    p.s. concerning McCain: wasn’t he a prison of war, surviving atrocities, but so brain-washed by the military that he still thinks war is necessary for peace? that’s like wiping my ass before i take a shit…or saying you have to lie to be honest…

  • Diogenes’ dummy

    theres still lostsa food drives and the like, along with the whole “cellphone for soldiers”thing,but sure-trends CAN be evasive with the horrors at large, also CAN be a necessary release or coat of comfort, immeadiate reaction to the HYPE, like a big rock tossed in a pond…see i ramble too.

    anyway- off the”Your View” at hand,in general –
    community is truley at stake. agreed.
    That Frost poem:
    Something there is that doesn’t love a wall, /That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it, / And spills the upper boulders in the sun, /And makes gaps even two can pass abreast. / The work of hunters is another thing: /I have come after them and made repair
    Where they have left not one stone on a stone, / But they would have the rabbit out of hiding, / To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean, /No one has seen them made or heard them made, / But at spring mending-time we find them there. /I let my neighbor know beyond the hill; /And on a day we meet to walk the line /And set the wall between us once again. /We keep the wall between us as we go. /To each the boulders that have fallen to each. /And some are loaves and some so nearly balls /We have to use a spell to make them balance:
    ‘Stay where you are until our backs are turned!’
    We wear our fingers rough with handling them. /Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
    One on a side. It comes to little more:
    There where it is we do not need the wall:
    He is all pine and I am apple orchard. /My apple trees will never get across
    And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
    He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors’.
    Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder / If I could put a notion in his head:
    ‘Why do they make good neighbors? Isn’t it / Where there are cows? /But here there are no cows. /Before I built a wall I’d ask to know /What I was walling in or walling out,
    And to whom I was like to give offence. /Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
    That wants it down.’ I could say ‘Elves’ to him, /But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather
    He said it for himself. I see him there /Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
    In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed. /He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
    Not of woods only and the shade of trees. /He will not go behind his father’s saying,
    And he likes having thought of it so well /He says again,

    “Good fences make good neighbors.”

  • Lana

    We’re not ready for any one who isin’t going to actually do what they say. Too bad Obama can’t actually tell us what he will ‘change’. Whoever will be voted in, it won’t matter, my life will pretty much stay the same. So, I don’t care if we had a black jewish midget as a president, because I’ll still be doing the same things in the same exact way.

  • jimbob

    already had lots of black presidents:

    24
    Fifth Element
    Idiocracy

    etc.

  • Dischuker

    this is going to be a major issue, just not for the reason that most of us think. in the south carolina primary, obama received 78% of the black vote. this is silly. i fear he will get elected simply BECAUSE he is black.
    and then as mentioned above, i fear that if he loses, it will lead to greater race relation problems because of the perceived presence of racism that kept him from getting elected.

    as far as the two candidates go, obviously there are serious flaws with both of the major party options. however, i don’t worry about homeland security with mccain in the oval office. i worry that someone will try to test obama the way they did bush. despite his many shortcomings, we have not been attacked since 9/11 under his watch.

  • deepthinker

    Yes. I think that we are way past this issue, or at least we should be. Black, white, yellow or red… doesn’t matter, as long as it gets better than it is now. If he actually does what he promises, it might actually propel the country to become more open-minded. Wouldn’t that be great? Will there ever be a day that America will just see people, and not color?

  • lizze

    I am so glad i saw this title. I just watched his speech on tv. I think the US is ready for anyone who is willing to make the country a better place for the most of the people. I am pretty sure that weve come far enough as a whole to not really have to just see a persons skin color and not hear what they have to say. I hope so, at least. Besides, his ideas seem very good.

  • dahnz

    Some people are saying that Obama might be the anti-christ…
    Not me!! I just heard it around the office..

  • jesse

    its simple. NO! definitely not ready, i’m not saying i’m not ready, i like barack.. a lot……. i just reaaally think he’ll get shot, the blacks will go nuts and riot like rodney king x100

  • Vera Lynn

    Is he a white man with a black father, or a black man with a white mother? Im confused.

    Not really. Playing Devil’s advocate.

  • Vera Lynn

    I agree that people will try to assasinate (KILL) him. People get crazy mad/ angry. Do I think this will continue? Yes.
    Until the “job” is done. He will forever be in danger

  • odanu

    Yes, Americans are ready for a Black president, and I’m voting for him because of his economic policies (specifically including his cuts to middle class income tax and the rollback of tax breaks to large corporations that have benefitted from outsourcing) and his foreign policies (including the complete banning of torture and “harsh interrogation, a time table for getting out of Iraq, returning to the international stage as a sane player that knows how to negotiate rather than bluster and intimidate), and his social positions (including respecting the rights of all Americans to equal pay for equal work, immigration laws that cope with both security and societal needs, and respect for the role of family in building community).

    Yeah, the guy from Hawaii with the funny name is a pretty decent candidate.

  • Frank

    I have to say…. if they are not, then they should have voted against him. If anybody complains after he is elected, it is point-and-laugh time.

  • Amanda

    Is America ready for a black president? Yes and no. Some are and some aren’t. The people who aren’t ready won’t vote for him, and come November we’ll see whether or not that’s the majority.

    I live in the so called birthplace of the Republican Party, or at least one of 40. I’ve met more than a few people who are registering to vote so “this guy” isn’t in office… regardless of whether or not they can cite any of his policies. It’s certainly disheartening. I see and hear subtle and casual racism everyday… I’m sure many people are going to also vote for him to see some social attitude change.

    It’s tough. No matter what way the election pans out, for most people he’ll either be president because he’s black or lose because he’s black. What a terrible way to write off such a historical precedent.

    It’s amazing that race is still an issue, and alarming that it’s a deciding factor for some Americans.

    Personally and obviously, race doesn’t matter. Hopefully change is attractive enough of a message to transcend that.

  • Tsiamon

    someone equivocated that, in america, voting for a black man would be like voting for a woman or someone in a wheelchair.

    I’m just pointing out that one of our greatest presidents had a wheelchair.

  • sdggrant

    I’d have no problem with a black president but I honestly just think McCain will be a better president than Obama. Im voting for McCain but I would not be too disappointed if Obama won. I just hope the Secret Service stays on top of its game because, sadly, there still are some hardcore racists around.

  • sdggrant

    @ Amanda

    Just because someone doesn’t vote for Obama doesn’t mean they would not accept a black man as a president. If Obama doesn’t win this election it will not be because he is black, it will simply be because people think McCain is more qualified. Sure, Obama might have a few votes go the other way because of his skin color, but McCain will lose just as many because he’s viewed as an “Old man.”

  • Anon

    Vera, (66),

    “Is he a white man with a black father, or a black man with a white mother? Im confused.

    Not really. Playing Devil’s advocate.”

    A good point.

    Being an outsider, this definition of “black” for him has puzzled me. He has half African blood. If he had a quarter, would he still be “black”? An eighth? A sixteenth? At what point of “dilution” does a person cease to be black? Or does it depend on the colour his genes have left his skin, regardless of any other factor? In that case is there a colour chart to indicate? (Might a person even become black for a short while in summer after a good long exposure on the beach?) Is there not a term coloured? Or is there some problem with that? Clearly many or most of the terms for people of mixed race may tend to be offensive except in places such as Brazil or the Caribbean, where the mixtures are so total and merge so completely from one extreme to the other that segregation for the point of racism or insult comes close to pointless. Or, rather sinisterly, does it depend who is doing the defining? Or has Obama proudly announced himself as black. I’m simply curious to know.

    Or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick altogether and there is some other factor involved?

  • Jordan

    you shouldn’t be viewing someone by the color of their skin in the first place….

  • boo radley

    I seriously believe that if Obama was white, he would not even be the democratic candidate. Him being black is basically a GIANT symbol for change…without it he is quite boring.

  • Anon

    True. If we were all blind our world would be different, but not necessarily better. Unfortunately speeches can and do rouse rabble and promises are broken.

  • Anon

    77 refers to 75.

  • bucslim

    Are we really supposed to give a rat’s hoo-haa about what color the guy is? Why should that matter? Do people really need to validate their enlightenment by voting for a dude who’s melanin content is higher than their own? That’s it, the only reason?

    I’ve been a Republican since I entered the age to vote and I think there is a lot to admire about Obama, but I really don’t buy into all of this bullshit about the guy. It’s as if the Democrats venerate the Jesus rays the guy gives off. The dude can talk all touchy feely he wants, a specialty of liberals everywhere. But if and when he gets elected, his ass is on the line. You can blather on and on about hope and change, but when you actually have to make those decisions, hope and change translates into tax and spend.

    And as you may have guessed I’m not exactly in love with McCain either. He ain’t a wet dream for Reagan Republicans. But frankly, I don’t give a shit what color he is either, race, color whatever, it doesn’t enter into the equation for me. All I want to know is if the guy can make tough decisions, clean up some of the messes George has made and not screw things up in Iraq so that we can all get on with our goddamn lives.

    I look at Obama the same way I look at a quarterback who was drafted in the first round. Sure, he’s got some potential, and he can talk about how he’s going to change the franchise all he wants. Nobody’s going to be able to tell if he’s any good until his ass is on the line. You can’t apply that to McCain, he’s got experience making tough and unpopular decisions.

    For that I’m willing to overlook his race and his weird pterodactyl arms.

  • bucslim

    or is it Raptor arms, I mean what is that?

  • Dave

    Obama:
    Hope, Change, White Guilt

  • Anon

    Condoleezza vs Hillary would have been interesting.

  • hg8057

    A black President? Yes. This particular one? No.

  • Munken

    59. Lana

    So you basicly don’t give a f*** about anybody but yourself.

    Sad.

  • darkwing

    First I would like to say that I think the racist comments should be left in. It would be a good example of the type of ignorance and backwards thinking that we are talking about here. I don’t think he will be easily assassinated by some dumb methed-up redneck. The secret service is much to good at their job these days for that to happen. It could, however, be done by some highly motivated groups with some kind of military training. If enough people with the will and means wants someone dead bad enough I don’t think it can be stop as long as the person is in the public eye and not in hiding. I really don’t think that is going to happen though. I think what is different in america today than 40 years ago is that most intelligent people have come to except equality as a God given right.

  • matthewsej

    I hope he wins, it would be interesting to see what he does with your country, however, if he doesnt, sent him over to South Africa, Well be more then happy to have him.

  • Wini

    What a ridiculous question. I can’t believe race is still an issue – Go Obama!

  • Leah

    In America i know it’s not compulsary to votebut judging by some of the comments, if you don’t vote at all, then i believe you have no right to complain about the politics.
    If you don’t vote there’s no point going on about how crap a president is because you didn’t even take part.

    This isn’t a question about skin colour, but more so who would you prefer McCain or Obama.
    may the best man win, and thats Obama

  • storm_shadow

    I’m not American but I’m curious – how prominent is racism in the US?

  • Drogo

    Well, I’m voting for him and I’m white.

    This might make me seem naive, but I think the race issue is exaggerated (perhaps mostly by the republicans) Maybe I’m just hoping that the race issue is only as bad as the Kennedy is catholic issue from 1960. My mother told me that an anti-catholic relative(an in-law) said “Kennedy will let the Pope run the country” and even was glad JFK was assassinated. Those people were a minority, and Kennedy was elected.

  • Captain Supremo III

    That is a really racist question. You should be locked up.

  • Bizkit

    The greatest president in the world was black – Nelson Mandela, and he was president at a time when people though war would break out between black and whites, apartheid was over for 5 year when he was president, not 45 like the US (they also sort of had apartheid in the 60’s). Anyway, my point being, if he is a great leader, people will love him for that, a poll in south africa the other day stated that about 80% of white people saw Mandela as a great president, and younger white kids (who don’t know what went on in apartheid) absolutely love Mandela. So if Obama is great at what he does, the people will love him for that :)

  • Mendacity

    I believe that a black man or woman with sufficient qualifications can be elected in America. However, if John McCain wins in November that does not necessarily mean that America is not ready for a black president – it just means that it is not ready for Barak Obama, irregardless of whether he is black or white.

  • Mom424

    Well you better be.

    There is a huge danger when any party becomes entrenched. Republicans have been in power for 16 years (?), their cronies are in all key positions of power, they act with impunity; Because they can. There is no-one with the necessary clout to stop them. If you want a “fer instance” you can look to the duplicity used against their own players; the lying to and manipulation of both Colin Powell and Condie Rice on the way to war.

    We had the same problem after 12 years of Liberal rule here in Canada. Huge scandals and corruption; simply because there was no one to stop them, all the key positions in place to prevent these kinds of excesses were manned by Liberals who’s loyalty to the party and interest in maintaining power were their prime motivations.

    New Zealand is having the same problem, their cabinet is about to be dissolved (hopefully eh Jamie?) after years and years of Labour rule. Same problem, all the key players are loyal party followers and their main interest is keeping their cronies in power. Even their speaker of the house is obviously biased. (Thanks to Jayfray for enlightening me)

    Absolute power does in fact corrupt absolutely. Black or yellow or green best not be the issue. ‘Tis time for change and the rest of the world is watching.

    I believe that keeping the Bush faction in power would be a tragedy of epic proportions and further fuel for the anti-American contingent. You will be doing their recruitment for them.

    For all you American voters out there, please watch this before you go to the polls.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

  • Ryan

    Yes we are, but not him. BO is a liar and a racist [see his statements about his grandmother and other statements from his books]. Certainly someone like JC Watts or Condi Rice would make great presidents. Obama will not. But, that has nothing to do with the fact that he is half black.

  • bucslim

    Drogo #90 – Republicans are exaggerating the race issue? That’s rich. Were you asleep when Geraldine Ferraro said he wouldn’t be where he was if he wasn’t black?

    I haven’t heard that kind of crap from McCain.

  • Mr. Mojo

    I can’t speak for everyone, but I am ready. I strongly support Obama, even though I have somewhat subdued feelings towards him compared to many people. I don’t see him as a messiah, simply a man with a bit more integrity and intelligence than his opponent. He’s still a politician at heart, and my only real expectation is that he will do what is in his own best interest. Luckily, his best interest is a fairly close parallel to mine.

    I’m not expecting a miracle. I know the economy will not recover overnight, I know our troops won’t be home on Jan. 21, and I know gasoline will not magically drop to $1/gallon again. I will be perfectly happy with the following:

    1) Provide a timetable and solid list of objectives for ending the war in Iraq. Bringing the troops home immediately is no more viable a solution than leaving them there indefinitely, and “get the bad guys” is not an effective military strategy.

    2) Try to restore the Constitution. I know Bush has destroyed it almost beyond recognition, but do your best to put it back together again. A good start would be to completely void the “Patriot Act” and to make warrantless wiretaps illegal again.

    3) Put serious effort into finding alternative energy sources. I know Obama is from the midwest and ethanol is a tempting option, but I do not consider using valuable food as fuel as a valid idea. We’re already seeing the results of thinning the corn supply…now we get to pay $4/gallon of both gasoline AND milk.

    If Obama can do these things in his first term, I will back him for as long as he remains in politics. If he can’t or doesn’t at least attempt them, he will be just another politician in my book.

  • Tsiamon ~ FDR was indeed in a wheelchair, but he didn’t run for office in a wheelchair and he was careful not to appear in public in a wheelchair, back in those days your life was easier to keep private.

    Mom424 ~ President Bush was duely elected *twice* by the American people. And why do people think the Democrates are going to save America from the big bad Republicans? Guess what? They’re even worse! You can keep your socialized medicine in Canada, thank you. Some of us want less government, not more.

    Also, there are three branches of government. The president is not the sole leader of our country. And while I’m ranting, if dems are so superior, why didn’t Clinton/Gore solve more problems? So-called climate change? Dependence on oil? Terrorism? Poverty? They’re all talk. Every last one of them, whatever color they are.

  • koekaine

    I dont live in America, but i think that a black president wold be one of the biggest happenings in America, ever. about 300 years ago, the only thing blacks were capable of doing in america was physical labour, under terrible working conditions, along with being beaten by white men. Now i say this with 100% certainty, BARACK OBAMA will win the 2008 presidential election.

  • Spart

    #57 Ringtailroxy

    “now, I am well aware of Clinton’s part in the bombing of South Africa”

    Do tell…

  • bucslim

    rushfan – Clinton didn’t solve more problems because he was banging the help in the hallway and the oval office and then lying his ass off about it. I’m not W’s biggest fan, but can you imagine where we’d be if Gore had his way in Florida? I’ve seen cardboard cutouts that were smarter than that hypocrite douchenozzle.

  • wickeddavis

    yes, i definitely think so, but for me it’s about a change in leadership and direction for america rather than skin color. race/ethnicity was never a factor for me. unfortunately, for some in my area (michigan, usa) it is. i have seen quite a few “crush osama obama and chelsea’s mama” bumper stickers and even a church sign on my way to work which read “obama. osama. brothers?” the “osama” thing seems to be the main point of these people here, or as my zealot neighbors constantly remind me: “—-his middle name IS hussein, you know!” prejudice like that just disgusts me. i personally admire obama and i think he has the potential to start america back on the path to economic stability and to restore our image as a responsible and respectable nation in the eyes of the world.

    that said, this november i will rock out with my barack out!

  • m0b33

    I’m just hoping that the US get a GOOD President no matter what colour or sex or their inclination may be.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    You HONESTLY don’t think we would have been better off with Gore over Bush the last 8 years? HONESTLY?

    Come on pal. This, again, is what drove me away from conservatism, as I’d previously been driven from liberalism–the mendacity. You always make a big deal about being disgusted, to some degree, with both ideologies and parties, and thus implying that there is some level of honesty in copping this attitude. But any fool can see that 8 years of Gore would certainly have been no worse, and almost certainly a great deal better, than what we’ve had under Bush, quite likely the worse president we’ve had since Warren Harding’s administration. Gore dumb? Please. He’s been wooden, and unappealing, and nondescript at times… but he’s never been dumb.

    Anyway, YES, America is ready for a black president. And my sense is that we’ll have one come November.

    But what I applaud is that we’ll be back to having an intelligent, capable, visionary leader in the white house (if Obama wins) which is what we have NOT had the last 8 years, and would certainly NOT have if McCain won. Again, all this bullshit about Obama “not being experienced” and so on, is just that—bullshit. We’re in greater danger with an incapable, tempermental, addle-minded McCain minding our “security” than a man with the judgement and character that Obama clearly has.

  • Randall

    oh and by the way, please… no dragging me into drawn-out debates. It’s the start of the semester here at the Uni, and I’m up to my neck in students, paperwork, classes, meetings, seminars, orientations, get-togethers at the Dean’s place, impromptu faculty discussions and god knows what else.

    So please just step aside, acknowledge my correctness in all things, and say, “yes Randall, sir.”

  • jenny

    Yes the US is ready for a black,white,yellow,brown President.The color of skin should not matter nor affect our decision.However, I don’t think that we are ready for Barak Obama.He wants to make everything better for those who are already wealthy and powerful,but what about the rest of us? Who will stand up for us if not our own apposed Leader.

  • kiwiboi

    oh and by the way, please… no dragging me into drawn-out debates

    Randall – deal. But, in return, we expect a full descriptive report on this year’s intake of co-eds :)

  • Mama-Kali

    I think that the whole of Europe and maybe the aussies and kiwis too are much more enthusiast about Obama than Americans. Take a poll in Europe and he”ll win it by a landslide. Look at the turn out in Berlin. But then in Europe apart from the Nationalist (racist)parties and populists (who speak only in oneliners, but don’t have no solution) everybody ( even the most conservatives) are moving to the left (that’s more liberal for americans).
    Would be difficult in my believe to sell right wing politics over here. Hit first, ask questions later is how Bush is seen here I think. Someone who promises that this will change gets lots of credit. And then somehow there is the JFK angle, lots of people see hin as the new Kennedy.

  • Mom424

    Rushfan: You are missing my point. Regardless of my personal politics ( I voted Conservative in the last 2 elections by the way ), it is dangerous to have the same party in power for an extended period of time. They can do what they want because no-one will stop them.

    Did you know that Bush set up a separate intelligence operation, controlled directly by the White House, when the CIA and Military Intelligence would not give him the information he WANTED to justify going to war? Would that have been possible had he been a first term Republican?

    By the way, your tone sucks. Lighten up, you’re appearing nasty.

  • Bucslim ~ Agreed. I literally thought “thank god Gore isn’t president” on 9/11.

    Oh, and, No, sir, Randall. Enjoy your life in the liberal world of academia. :)

  • Mom, I went back and reread your original post. Bush was in office for 8 years, before him clinton for 8. The Congress was Republican for a long time, but really only able to accomplish welfare reform on Clinton’s watch. Our gov. goes into gridlock quite often. My point was that it’s all the same shit no matter who’s “in power.” There are a few people trying desperately to cut the pork and protect the environment and focus on national security, but the vast majority are power hungry fucknuts. And do some serious research into the intelligence used to justify the war and you’ll find more countries than just the US had faulty intel. Do you really believe Bush set up a blah blah blah CIA blah blah, what am I saying, of course you do. Oh, and not trying to be nasty, just concerned my nation is going to be swayed into electing the guy who wants to control my thermosdat and take my SUV away. :)

  • bucslim

    Alright Randall, I’ll bite this one time. Yes I do believe he’s dumb. Dumber than Bush, debatable. Probably no worse off than we are now, ok I accept, begrudgingly.

    You can’t deny he’s a hypocrite though, that’s a stone cold fact. Pushing off this suspect idea that we’re headed towards a climate induced doomsday and demanding that we all change our attitudes and lifestyles about energy while burning enough jet fuel to light up the countries he flies to, spreading his weak gospel. And the cherry on top is energy bills to heat, cool and electrify his personal home that top $30,000. He wants you to change, and he’ll fly anywhere to tell you to do it. Now that, my esteemed friend, is what I call dumb. And it’s also at the very heart of liberalism. That sort of smug, ‘higher ground’ bullshit that they all demand you to change but have no intention of doing it themselves.

    Just keep telling yourself Obama will cure all your problems pal. He’s gonna buy us all a Coke and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. Just remember one thing, the Beatles sang All You Need is Love, . . . then they broke up because they were ready to kill each other.

  • Zylen

    You would think it would be easy to win against McCain considering the he is not even eligible. He was born in Panama which immediately disqualifies him.

  • bucslim

    BTW Randall I admit to likening Gore to the SNL parody of him. “We’re going to put that money in a laawk baawcks”

  • Callie

    Anyone voting for race over issues doesn’t deserve to vote.

    That said, I think we’re ready for a black/woman/gay/insert minority here/ president as long as he or she is competant and not only being voting in because they are an anomoly.

    As a side note, LV seems to be made up of educated youngish men and women. Please go vote in November. It really does make a difference.

  • Callie

    McCain announces his VP today. I hope he’s a good one. Or maybe one that has some of the same stances on issues.

    Obama would have been wise to take a page from that book….

  • Nice try, Zylen. So do you want to disqualify all kids born on military bases outside of the states?

  • Mr. Mojo

    The simple fact is that we do need change. I don’t hold Bush 100% responsible for the current situation in America, but I do feel he is one of the key reasons things are the way they are.

    Bush did not cause all of our problems. The people he appointed to positions of power (whether by choice or obligation) did most of that for him. When Bush decides to do something and people tell him it is a bad idea, he just digs in harder. This would not be a problem if we were only contending with a stubborn president, but he surrounded himself with “yes men” and puppet masters. Our situation with Iraq is the result of having multiple factions with multiple goals all competing for the ear of the man with the authority.

    In my opinion, we’d be much better off if Gore or Kerry had been elected instead. Yes both would bring a whole new set of problems to the table, but they would not have the near totalitarian authority Bush has built for himself. I am not saying this as a dem, as I don’t make my decisions based on party.

  • bucslim

    Ha!!! You’re funny Mr. Mojo!

  • Zylen

    Rushfan…rules are rules. You must be a natural born citizen to be President. There are good reasons for that stipulation which should not be dismissed just because someone was born on a military base outside of the U.S.

  • Anon

    bucslim, (112),

    “Pushing off this suspect idea that we’re headed towards a climate induced doomsday and demanding that we all change our attitudes and lifestyles about energy while burning enough jet fuel to light up the countries he flies to, spreading his weak gospel. And the cherry on top is energy bills to heat, cool and electrify his personal home that top $30,000. He wants you to change, and he’ll fly anywhere to tell you to do it. Now that, my esteemed friend, is what I call dumb. And it’s also at the very heart of liberalism. That sort of smug, ‘higher ground’ bullshit that they all demand you to change but have no intention of doing it themselves.

    Oh, it’s real, pal, it’s real. Forget politicians who lie and manipulate either because they enjoy it, or no one will vote for them if they tell the truth (fact). Try asking a hundred or a thousand of the world’s most respected relevant scientists and see how many deny man-driven climate change. It’s their study, my friend, not politican’s. Like you get a pilot to fly a plane, or a surgeon to operate on you, not a politician.

    And yes, we have the same sort of save-the-planet book-writing mouth-shooting heroes down here who live like Lord Muck. That doesn’t make me believe climate change is bollox, I know it isn’t from my own work. It makes me despair.

  • Anon

    P.S.

    It will be interesting to see whether, how and how much the issue called *global warming* figures in you presidential election. Perhaps it is there, but I’m not myself aware of significant groundswell interest from the voters.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    “Just keep telling yourself Obama will cure all your problems pal.”

    yeah, okay buddy. You can keep trying to dismiss people’s enthusiasm over him thusly… but it won’t work.

    It’s particularly insulting to MOI, as you know very well I am no mindless follower. I don’t believe for a moment that “Obama will cure all my problems” or all OUR problems or anything of the kind. I think you know this very well. I, and others, have logical and quite strong reasons for supporting Obama.

    out of time. Hopefully will check in later.

  • bucslim

    Anon – sorry, you’re just not going to prove that to me. I spent quite a bit of my time arguing this in the ‘your view’ question on global warming.

    But I do love the usage of the word bollox.

  • Randall

    kiwiboi:

    “Randall – deal. But, in return, we expect a full descriptive report on this year’s intake of co-eds”

    You GOT it, my friend. ;-) (so, so many hotties… dear god I love my job).

  • Anon ~ There is actually quite a bit of legitimate debate about the science of “global warming.”

    “NASA now begrudgingly confirms that the hottest year on record in the continental 48 was not 1998, as previously believed, but 1934, and that six of the 10 hottest years since 1880 antedate 1954. Data from 3,000 scientific robots in the world’s oceans show there has been slight cooling in the past five years, never mind that “80% to 90% of global warming involves heating up ocean waters,” according to a report by NPR’s Richard Harris.”

  • The question now becomes, is America ready for a WOMAN VICE-PRESIDENT??? McCain picked Sarah Palin, Alaska’s governor. :) Sorry, I’m excited.

  • Colinius Romul

    frankly I’m not sure if the USA is ready for barack (or a black president) but the rest of the world sure is. And it’s gotten to the point where it doesn’t even MATTER, mccain is such a screw up that you HAVE to take the alternative…at least the alternative is good for once though…

  • Miss Destiny

    I think we ARE ready. I worry a small bit him possibly being assassinated by some crazy NRA-KKK nutjob, but you run those risks no matter who is elected. We’ve had all white males as President in the past, and some of THEM got assassinated, did they not?

    I support Obama and I will be dancing into the polls in November to cast my vote for him. He is well spoken, intelligent, and when I watch his speeches, I BELIEVE what he is saying. I’m usually very cynical when it comes to politicians. McCain just seems slimy and mean to me. Not just because he’s old, and not just because he’s a Republican. I like Reagan even if I was a baby when he was in office, from seeing him on TV and stuff when I was older, and reading about him.

    I know Obama can’t do EVERYTHING he is promising, I’m not that naive to blindly believe. (Pardon the rhyme, lol…) However, at least when I think about a future with him as President, I see it as a possibility.

  • The Dread Pirate Bob

    IN 88
    “In America i know it’s not compulsary to votebut judging by some of the comments, if you don’t vote at all, then i believe you have no right to complain about the politics.
    If you don’t vote there’s no point going on about how crap a president is because you didn’t even take part.”

    I disagree entirely, not voting can be a form of protest and if I opt to not vote because neither option represents what I believe than I still have every right to complain that the person elected is doing a horrible job because I was not even given a choice to my liking. That is called Freedom of Speech and until it is taken away I have every right to use it as I see fit.

  • logar

    rushfan: I, for one, am ready for a woman VP- especially this one. Have you seen her? She’s totally hot. I would definitely give her an additional 5 kids.

  • Mike

    Obama must NOT lose.
    If he loses, that means another man will win, a terrible, archconservative bastard that is Cain.
    If Obama loses I won’t move to the USA as planned, because a dark future will await you.

  • Callie

    Dread Pirate:

    I beg to differ

    While I doubt a different party will ever get elected, there are more than two options. Additionally, there is never going to be a “perfect” candidate for you or anyone else. Some things in parties are direct contrasts of each other. (conservative values include pro- death penalty AND pro-life, for example)

    If you don’t have an opinion to vote, you shouldn’t have an opinion when things go wrong.

    If you have a young child and give it no rules, isn’t it hypocritical to yell at that child when it does something wrong? Same thing.

  • jazjsmom

    Color does not come into play for me. I was raised to treat all people the same, but Senator Obama is not the one for my presidential office. I can’t vote for him at all. Sorry, I have to have a firm belief that he is capable and that he is what this country needs and I just don’t. Were there a Colin Powell sitting as a candidate, I’d vote for him in a millisecond. I admire him tremendously. Anyway, do I think America is ready, well some would say yes, some would say no, but I can only speak for me and I say yes. Just not Senator Obama, in my opinion.

  • Anon

    Well, there you are, all you good folks in the voting line. The McCain chips are down (via my Chilean on-line newspaper). If he gets picked, you’ll be a cardio-vascular accident away from Palin as Presient. And that’s Sarah, not Michael, by the way.

    Hope you’re ready for that.

  • Wanderer

    This election, kind of like the last elections, I wasn’t really too keen on the presidents to be swayed to vote one way or the other.

    Honestly I really hope that Hilary doesn’t win, and not because she’s a female, but because she contradicts herself way to much .

    if obama wasn’t black would there be that much controversy, probably not. I really don’t care if he was black or white, if he can do a good job as our president. Im pretty sure most anyone is going to be better than george bush jr.

    People at this day and age.. really really need to get over the skin color issues. its not a different race, its a differnt type of race. the race being human. There are many different types of human, but in the end.. we are all still human.

  • bucslim

    Uh, Mike, you need to crush some tinfoil on those rabbit ears around your brain pal. McCain isn’t ‘archconservative.’ Just ask Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter.

    Jeez, typical liberal hysteria.

    And Anon, I’d like to remind you that if Obama wins, we’re also a cardiovascular event away from one of the biggest pantloads in the senate.

    Wanderer – not sure if you’ve picked up a paper recently, but Hilary probably isn’t going to win now since she lost the nomination.

  • Rinneganleks

    F*ck that! We need Homer Jay Simpson in the White House! Hahahah

  • Mom424

    Rushfan: Certainly hope if McCain gets into office he doesn’t die. How old is he? How much political experience does Palin have? How much international experience? Lots, I forgot she is a former Miss Alaska. Rather ironic that the same qualities (lack of experience etc.) are going to be used to justify Palin as McCain’s running-mate as were and are being used as a weapon against Obama.

  • Randall

    O….kay. Last night Obama makes one of the most stirring and powerful political speeches of….oh, say the last 30 years at least…. once again indicating, by the forcefulness and clear specifics (NOTE: *SPECIFICS*) of said speech that he’s got the character, wisdom, judgement and strength to be president…

    …and then today McCain names, as his VP choice… some nondescript (albeit sweet-looking) and *utterly* inexperienced MILF?

    Uh huh.

    o…. kay.

  • Cedestra

    120. Zylen: Do you think they hadn’t considered that before? Military bases are technically American soil, so if you’re born on a base, you are born not in America but on American soil. He’s American, nice try.
    To answer the question: not entirely. I can’t pretend to have my fingers on the pulse of America, but most people I talk to are open-minded enough about race to vote for the party or the best candidate. There are many, many people, however, I do *not* talk to. Those are the people I worry about.
    I am voting for Obama. I don’t believe magic rainbows and the repopulation of the American Bald Eagle will come of his presidency, but damn, great choice with Biden. That’s what won me over.
    Clever choice on VP, McCain, clever choice. You sly white devil, you.

  • Anon

    bucslim, (137),

    “And Anon, I’d like to remind you that if Obama wins, we’re also a cardiovascular event away from one of the biggest pantloads in the senate.”

    What are the insurance risk stats for that then, at his age? Don’t you mean an assassination event? In which case you could blame your extreme rednecks for any pantload of shite you and the rest of us are lumbered with.

    Or are they a good reason for not *risking* Obama?

  • i say yes. his skin color doesnt make a difference. hes a good candidate(sp?). but i think its a good (possible) change out of routine

  • Mom424

    Randall: I am in agreement. Haven’t heard such a stirring speech since Kennedy. Thanks to Beany for providing me the webcast last night.

    My fingers are crossed.

  • Boddah

    As a Canadian i think that America is ready for a black president for the most part. i think that certain areas such as the deep south there will be more issues with it but overall i think Americans are ready. However, having said this i would be shocked if there wasn’t an attempt on his life. Looking back in time Presidents with more open views (for the time they held office) didn’t fare very well i.e. Lincoln and Kennedy but we can’t give up hope. GO OBAMA!

  • Anon

    As an outsider, with all the advantages and limitations of that perspective, just a quick look in on this new Sarah Palin situation. Without wishing to judge or blame her personally in any way, it looks as though there might have been a tactic to pick up the loose Hillary votes by her choice. I.e., the McCain votes are settled, the Obaba votes are settled. The Clinton votes are up for grabs and will probably make the difference.

    If, I’m right, and it may well not be the case I freely admit, is that the basis you Americans want a stand-in president chosen from? I will state that I imagine we in the rest of the world don’t need that and would find it deeply disturbing.

  • Orchid

    Wow, these kinds of things are popping up all over the place. I think that yes, America is ready for Obama and would have been ready for a woman too if a better one had been offered. I guess I’m just not sure what all the hub-bub is about. He’s a politician just like any other. I mean, I guess there’s novelty value to some based on superficial appearance and due to that he can appeal to minority demographics that may have been previously overlooked/unreachable by other politicans. I just don’t understand why people are making such a big deal about it. If he gets elected time will tell if he makes a good president or not. He promises to bring change to the white house and unite the people for the greater good of the country. If he is elected and is able to keep his word and make good on all those promises (surely a feat for any politician, lol), then that would be a very good thing for our country indeed.

  • YogiBarrister

    We’ll soon find out? Truth be told, given the stark contrast between the two candidates, their relative intelligence, health, vitality, their allegiance or opposition to failed Bush policies, and especially the competence of their counsel, their wives and running mates. If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide.

  • t_man

    Why shouldn’t we be? (although I do know some people in the south that still think they won the Civil War) We’re all about the freedom to do pretty much whatever we want in accordance to the law, and as far as I know Mr. Obama running for president isn’t against the law. So yes we are ready.

    On a side note I personally do not like the term “African-American”, he was born in The United States of America, therefore he is an AMERICAN.

  • t_man

    And for those of you who may be undecided come voting time. When in doubt vote Nader! (I don’t know if he’s running this year but I think it’s a funny little saying.)

  • modelpenguin

    This list makes me sad. =( Your skin color, gender, speaking ability, etc. have NOTHING to do with your actions in office.

  • YogiBarrister

    t_man, agree about African-American, it’s too long. When I was a lad writing term papers for social studies, we used the word Negro, ugh! Black is best.
    Disagree about voting for Nader, that’s just splitting your vote between the two viable candidates.

  • Randall

    anon:

    Yes, clearly it’s a cheap tactic, on McCain’s part, to pick up disgruntled Hillary voters. But I’ve said all along–if those people were so hooked on Hillary that they won’t vote for Obama, then they’re not really democrats anyway, and certainly are piss-poor citizens in any event… and are almost certainly just crypto-racists. OR so insanely “feminist” that they’d vote for the carbonized corpse of Eva Braun if she were running for president over ANY male in creation.

  • Orchid

    You know, t_man, when I voted for the first time at 18, I did vote for Nader lol!

  • I won’t be voting for Obama but I did like when he said “if I do lose this presidential race it won’t be because I’m black”. That to me was very refreshing and says how far we have come.

  • Anon

    Randall,

    “OR so insanely “feminist” that they’d vote for the carbonized corpse of Eva Braun if she were running for president over ANY male in creation.”

    Wow, thank God the sanctified mortal remains of Evita Peron aren’t running then!

  • Yep, Black Female here and I think we are ready. Look at all the bull thats going on now. This world can’t get any worse. Obama is a great man. Why pass on a great leader because some small minded people are not “ready” for someone whose skin color isnt white to become presedent. I could go on and on but I gotta go home. Getting off work :)

  • YogiBarrister

    Sarah Palin is a stunningly poor choice. With McCain’s age and health issues a concern, why would you select someone who is so obviously not qualified to assume the duties of the president, should that be necessary?

  • Yogi,i I think you can argue that she has just as much experience as Obama. She is running a state which I think comes closer to the Presidents responsibilities than a legislator. Being a Governor makes her Commander & Chief of the National Guard of Alaska. Plus I think overall she has more life experiences than Obama.

  • Deziner

    The bigger question is, is America in need of a President who can begin to bring our Nation into the 21st century with intelligence, pride, integrity and decisiveness?
    I think that that answer is yes, something long overdue.

    Barack O’bama has won my vote with his marvelous grasp of the problems and difficulties that he will inherit if he is elected to office. He has shown a desire to move our country towards a more positive and creative future. He has outlined a multi-faceted game plan for a long term goal of success that is based on the strengths of a new generation of thinkers and doers.

    This is the person we need to represent our Nation, and I don’t see where race comes into that question at all.

  • Anon

    bucslim, (124)

    “Anon – sorry, you’re just not going to prove that to me. I spent quite a bit of my time arguing this in the ‘your view’ question on global warming.”

    Just noticed this. This is one of your serious entries, ya? Not comix bollox!

    Well, so have I (spent time on the global warming site). If you don’t accept the twin spearheads of the issue, I certainly can’t convince you. You’ll just have to wait and see if you are right, and hope so. They are:

    1)The vast majority of scientists have now accepted the issue, including those who have spent their careers studying all the disciplines involved.

    2) That if you are right we can carry on as before and you can turn round and tell me, “I told you so”. If you are wrong you might not be here to hear me say that and I might not be here to say it to you. You wouldn’t even take that risk, so you must have 100% proof that you are correct. Yes? Otherwise why would you not take precautions *just in case* for your sake, your kids sake (if you have any), and for everything on this planet you hold dear (if only LV)?

    If someone says “Doctors don’t know shit about medicine and there’s nothing wrong with me”, I guess that’s the end of any argument though.

    And no. I’m not going to prove that to you. How on earth can I, or anyone else? The only thing that will *prove* it is by hindsight should it happen. (I’m optimistic: assuming survivors, note.) All we can do is look at unusual related phenomena and make well-educated guesses at what they signify. That’s what scientists do, from lifetimes of study, research and experience. And then they get together and add up their data, see how much agrees, what is forming patterns and what fulfils earlier predictions of many kinds. This is the work that has convinced them. They now need the backing of the rest of us, but will have to count without yours. I only hope they can count on the next U.S. president, black or white.

  • ericdraven26

    his color matters about as much as his favorite color
    seriously
    he is the man for the job
    whether you agree that he is best for the job or not, his color doesnt matter
    think: would you (dis)agree as much if he was white?
    i know i would still vote for him
    i dont want to see 4 more years of the same, plus he has interesting and good policies, go look at them, listin to him speak

  • Dewlight

    I think the majority of the country is ready for Obama & I’ll be voting for him in November.

  • Cedestra

    Anon: oh yeah, I caught that, too. McCain is so saucy with his sneakiness, blinding us with her voluptuous ta-tas in hopes that he can shove her in front of him and equate somewhere near “even” for asthetics.

  • Yogi said: “If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide”

    Yogi, is it at all possible that if Obama was not black he would not be where he is politically speaking.

    Yogi said: “If America were as ready for an African-American president and first lady as we should be, Obama would win in a landslide”
    Yogi, is it at all possible that if Obama was not black he would not be where he is politically speaking?

    I’m not asking that in a snotty condescending way. Someone asked me that question and I had to admit that he probably wouldn’t.

  • Dave

    The Obama campaign calling Palin inexperienced is a joke. Maybe they should take a look at their own candidate before making comparisons. Sarah Palin is the only individual involved in this election with one minute’s experience in an executive branch of government. What expertise do Obama and Biden have on energy policy? None. Palin ran one of the largest energy producing states in the nation. Legislative experience does not always transfer to executive success. I’m not saying that Palin has the experience necessary to run for President, but neither does Obama, and she isn’t running for President. Obama is. Just because McCain picks someone inexperienced to cast the tie-breaking vote in the Senate, that doesn’t negate the fact that Obama is just as inexperienced and he is running to lead the country.

  • Sorry for the double talk. I guess I’m a typical politician

  • Mike

    Yes.

    Anyone that is not ready is a stupid racist that is too blind to see how smart Obama is.

  • I agree Dave
    The Obama’s campaign first put out a statement saying :
    “Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency”

    Then they retracted it and said

    “We send our congratulations to Governor Palin and her family on her designation as the Republican nominee for vice president. Her selection is yet another encouraging sign that all barriers are falling in our politics and while we obviously have differences over how to best lead this country forward Governor Palin is an admirable person and will add a compelling new voice to this campaign.”

    I guess they could see the writing on the wall.

  • Fritz

    I think the more important question here is “IS HE CAPABLE” well i think so? an hope so? O-B-A-M-A! O-B-A-M-A! O-B-A-M-A!

  • cicero

    wow seriously? why does everyone keep saying mccain will be just the same as bush? does no one pay any attention to congress? mccain has gone against the bush administration more than any other republican in the entire congress. just because he’s white and a republican doesnt mean he’ll be the same as bush. maybe you should ask the question if america is ready for a moderate politician? because he’s not that conservative. he’s like leiberman but conservative instead of liberal.

    but what really made me laugh this week was hillary clinton endorsing obama after all the bashing she did against him during the primaries. that made my week.

  • Liam

    Barack Obama is a good man. A far more intelligent and wise than McCain. If America chooses to deny themselves the best candidate for president they’ve ever had (almost), it’s on their heads. He needs to win. If he doesn’t, we’re down the shitter.

    I can’t decide if America is ready. But I am.

  • Hannah

    THANK YOU DAVE! Well said.

    Palin is not running for President, but Obama is, but if you want to be a stickler, day count-wise she has more experience than he does.

  • MPW

    Some Americans are ready and some are not, I don’t care what color his skin is, I only care that Obama, being the better candidate should win. It’s likely people will vote or not vote for him based on his race and not his political stance, and that is unfortunate, but it is also life. I will be voting for the first time in my life in November, and I guarantee Barack Obama’s skin color will not be a factor in my vote.

  • Zylen

    I don’t understand the “nice try” comments directed at me about McCain not being eligible considering the government itself felt it needed to pass a resolution making McCain a natural born citizen. A resolution which was, oddly enough endorsed,by Hillary and Obama. If an American base on foreign land is considered American soil this would not have been necessary.

  • Zylen, I don’t think the 14th Amendment was written to change the rules of who could be the President, it was to determine citizenship. I don’t think the founders would have agreed to rule out someone in McCain’s position. I mean come on, he was born on a military base because his father was serving his country.

  • unspokenwords

    I think we are ready, but with McCain choosing a female as a Vice President running mate, America will be seen as sexist if Obama wins, and racist if McCain wins

  • DoppHopper

    Well I don’t care about the colour of a person’s skin in relation to power. That said, I don’t like him not because he is black. I’m afraid the best guy for this job is Ron Paul who isn’t running any more.

  • Adrianne

    It should no longer matter in America what color a person is. We ARE ready for a GOOD president, and Obama is that person.

  • krchuk

    It’s terrible in this day and age that this question should even be asked. He’s HUMAN!!! He should be judged upon his achievements, policies etc. Move on peoples.

  • Nick Palla

    Oh my god he’s black, He has a different skin color so we all must seclude him from our other great presidents (Those very few…)I think the U.S needs to get over the bullshit about how if someone is a different color you must hate them.I in fact,Would vote for Mr.Obama,too bad i cant.Truly i put more Faith in Obama than in any other candidate right now,i watched his speech,amazing,he knows what the American people need and want,and he knows what he is talking about.Very Intelligent man,Obama 08!!!

  • bucslim

    According to Liam:

    “best candidate for president they’ve ever had (almost)”

    So now we’ve gone from the Democratic nominee to the best candidate ever? Read that carefully, THE BEST CANDIDATE EVER. So Roosevelt, Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson et al were less qualified than Obama? First time I’ve heard that.

    Did someone see the Virgin Mary’s likeness on his cheek or something? Give me a break!

  • boo radley

    Yeah. Watching Obama’s speech solidified my decision to vote for McCain. What did he really say? he just made 28 promises, and i seriously seriously doubt that the majority of them will ever occur. Yeah he gave a speech, didnt really say anything though.

  • nerdlette

    I think that the topic is moot. Anyone who votes Democratic generally opposes Republicans to begin with, and generally, democratic supporters are not racist. People who support Republican values and commitments will vote Republican anyways. If anything, the color of Obama’s skin has only HELPED him! I honestly think that Americans are readier for a black president than say, a woman president.

    At this point Obama is just the lesser of two evils. I do not think he is anywhere NEAR prepared for presidency, but another Republican would be FAAAR worse.

  • Tomo

    I think Obama will win not because he’s white but because he’s a democrat. We are a little bit tired and bored of the republicans.

    White or Black president, racism issues can never be eradicated in a country of people with such diverse backgrounds. We need to get over our colour, religion, creed, etc. if we are to progress as a nation.

    I just hope that we don’t have a situation like South Africa where racism roles got reversed post-aparthied.

  • Wowww… nice listverse.
    http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/Flugy14/dfgh.jpg

    In my opinion you shouldn’t advertise a political candidate on a page discussing your views on one, especially another.

  • ptbus0: Lol… that is an advertisement? Maybe I should turn ad-blocker off :lol:

  • Oh god… I just turned it back on.

  • Wamus

    The question is racist by it’s nature. The question should be “is Obama qualified to be President ?”. If you add the word “black” you make it race based and not qualification based and therfore you are racist by asking the question. The answer is – he does not have enough experience to be President.

  • Foxy

    I’m not American but I lived there for quite a while and I believe it’s about damn time!

  • kiwiboi

    The question is racist by it’s nature. The question should be “is Obama qualified to be President?”. If you add the word “black” you make it race based and not qualification based

    Wamus – Get real…Obama’s ethnicity has been of key interest in the entire race for the presidency. The question is topical, relevant, and inoffensive.

    and therfore you are racist by asking the question.

    Get over yourself.

  • kiwiboi

    and therfore you are racist by asking the question.

    Get over yourself.

    ** oops..typo in #191

  • kiwiboi

    and therfore you are racist by asking the question.

    Get over yourself.

    ** oops..typo in #191

  • B_Ott 14

    this is a little off topic from the actual question at hand, but i think that the fact that Obama is black is giving more reputation and popularity than he would have if he was the typical presidential race (white).

    I also think that the fact that he is black is getting him more support from younger voters. i know that people like me who just turned 18 and have been watching Bush since the fifth grade are ready for a big change in the USA and feel that Barrack Obama will be it.

  • fivestring63

    Just a few comments. I think America is ready for a black president. I don’t think Obama is ready though. Heck, I even like the Governor from Louisiana. Bobby Jindal, he’s Indian.

    As someone had said, it falls along the lines of Liberal and Conservative more than it does race. People need to look past Bush and not connect all republicans with him.

    I saw where Obama is not totally black. Here’s the snippet….

    “”Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs.. Barack Hussein Obama’s father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro).”

    Don’t know what to take of this. I guess he’s still officially black if you only go by skin color, but really of arab descent.

  • B_Ott 14

    to #181

    Nick Palla: How can one man (your savior Obama) know whats best for an entire country of people from countless different backgrounds?

    people think that because he is different, because he deviates from the norm of politics, that he will bring some miraculous transformation to the US society. if one was to take all his ideas, strategies, etc. and compare them to those of another recent democratic president; they would find barely any differences at all. the deciding factor in this race will ironically be, race.

  • heatherrr.

    what a stupid question. this isn’t a matter of race. the us has been ready for a black president for a long time. or some other sort of minority that doesn’t follow the WASP template.

    what matters here as stated many, many times above is not the color of obama’s skin, what his parents chose to name him, or what his ancestors did hundreds of years ago. what matters is issues facing america NOW, the pointless expensive war in iraq, increasing higher education costs (i pay 20 grand a year to be taught in broken engrish by some chinese man who really knows his math, but not his english….and no that’s not racist), the increasing cost of food, and the despicable situation regarding our public primary and secondary schools.

    i don’t care if our next president is green with purple spots, as long as he makes america once again the greatest country in the world.

  • ohrmets

    What’s disgusting are these ugly false rumors about him being a “secret Muslim” (whatever the hell that means) and that he was educated in a terrorist madrassa, blah blah blah.

    Even if he was Muslim, why is that such a dirty word? Muslim does not equal terrorist!

  • ohrmets

    It’s also disgusting how all the conservative columnists and writers ALWAYS refer to him as “Barack HUSSEIN Obama,” just to keep reminding everybody that maybe, just maybe, he actually is a “secret Muslim!” “Look folks, his name is Hussein! Just like that terrorist dictator bad guy in Iraq that we fought against! He must be a Muslim terrorist too! Vote John McCain! White guys for America!”

  • kiwiboi

    i pay 20 grand a year to be taught in broken engrish by some chinese man who really knows his math, but not his english….and no that’s not racist

    Oh, really? So why, when apparently making a point about higher costs of education, do you feel the need to refer to “engrish”? And why also specify that your teacher is “some chinese man”?

  • Ghidoran

    Yes. Good luck Barack Obama. Too bad I can’t vote :( Would have for Hillary Clinton heh.

  • Ellana

    I’d want a black man, or a man of any race to be president over a woman. I’ll tell you that much.

  • Lana

    Munken, When it comes down to it, it really is every man for himself.

    Sad, yes, but it’s also the truth.

    Don’t try to convince yourself it’s not like that.

  • jeff

    with the number of race baiters in this country, jesse jackson, and al sharpton chief among them, a black president will be the downfall of this country. racism has experienced a complete turnaround, where whites have less rights than non whites, due to white liberal guilt over the past, a past that aforementioned people can’t seem to get over. slavery was a terrible thing, but it can no longer be used as an excuse for the problems of america’s black communities.

  • elnrith

    no we arent ready

    and before you say RACISTLOLOLOL” let me explain

    what are the three things that should not matter in politics

    race
    gender
    religion

    what are we voting off of?

    race
    gender
    religion

    half the stuff you see on TV is spewing this garbage against the candidates

    we arent ready
    we neverwill be ready
    not until we can stop focusing on useless things such as race and cant focus on what really matters

    WHAT THEY WILL DO FOR US

  • elnrith

    and i HATE MY TYPOS

    you get my point

  • Maggot

    I think the US is ready for the person best suited to do the job. Why should skin color enter the equation?

  • I don’t think that a persons race should have an effect on politics any more than religion or sex does. Voting is like hiring, you should consider if the person can do the job, if they have the experience, can they tell you where they plan to be in 5 years (I never liked that job interview question).
    However remember that Obama is not totally “black” either. He is really multi-racial, although I am not an Obama fan, I think being multi-racial really points to how the future of America should be, where race does not effect relationships or jobs or anything.

  • Ralph

    Yes, but not this commie punk.

  • bdizzle

    yes. we have been ready but even when we do have a “black” president, black people will still complain about equality.

    i put quotations around “black” because i dont even consider him black.if he is half and half i can consider him white or black, right? or is it “politically incorrect” to do so?

  • Diogenes

    I’m just still trying to get over that Randall said MILF.
    haha

  • ohrmets

    LOL, the ad at the top of the page is for an “interracial dating” site. Hmm….

  • Aaron

    I think that we are, and that’s proven just by the fact of how far he’s already come. There is a good chance that he will win this coming election.

  • Usually, I am careful to read every post before adding my own. In this instance, I have purposefully *NOT* read any of the posts above.
    I wanted to make sure I posted only my opinion, and avoided reacting to anything anyone else had posted.
    I believe that America is ready for a black President, but that really is the smaller question this year.
    *Is America ready for a brilliant, eloquent leader who will put the needs of the American middle-class people first, and the needs of the super-rich America second?
    *Is America ready for a President who is ready to admit that the war in Iraq was a mistake from the start, and is ready to both create a reasonable timetable for withdrawal and beef-up the war in Afganistan?
    *Is America ready for a President who not only believes the scientists about global warming, but is ready to immediately implement programs to fight it?
    *Is America ready for a President who has proven his dedication to the common man, by turning his back on an assured high-profile, high-salaried job on Wall Street, to organize the poor and disinfranchized on Chicago’s South side.
    *Is America ready for a President (and Vice-President), who believes women deserve equal pay for equal work, and a choice in her own reproduction.
    America is ready. Are the “talking heads” and “commentators” ready?

  • clevelandemt

    I think only half of America is ready for a black man to be president. The civil rights movement was only forty years ago, a time filled with lynchings, murders and bombings, and most of that generation is still alive. People are stubborn and stuck in their ways plus the kids that grew up around that kind of hate usually develop the same hate they see their parents display. Those people alone won’t give obama their vote regardless of how they feel about the issues. I wish I could say that we as a nation have advanced past this but it hasn’t happened yet. Plus hillary should be president she gets my write in vote.

  • Denzell

    black or white American? whatever, as long as he’s a good leader. skin color doesn’t matter.

  • sharlu

    it don’t matter if you’re black or white

  • Jordan

    I think we’re ready for a black president (or female president for that matter), but Obama doesn’t have the experience necessary.

  • cubicdome

    The USA NEED a change and urgently. and to those that moan about Obama’s lack of experience, what experience did G.W. Bush have when he entered the White House….surely Obama cannot fare worse then Bush.

  • Lex

    For all of you that are basing your opinions based on the speeches he gives/gave, keep in mind, kiddies, that he doesn’t write his speeches. They are written for him, as it is with most president/presidential candidates. Black or white, male or female.

  • mangojuice03

    Have you noticed. Obama isn’t running as the first black president. I have yet hear him bring that up as a factor. He truely does rise above the issue of race and simply runs as a man with good ideas. I think people of all skin color can appreciate that. He attends a Christian church of black heritage, but he doesn’t seem to use that heritage for political gain in any way. How interesting is that?

    I guess he saw that it didn’t work for Jackson or Sharpton and that he better run as a man with ideas that is black and not a black man that has ideas.

  • new york

    The generational gap is the problem, in my eyes. People under 25, that is to say, the folks in my generation, have the utmost faith in Obama. However, I know a very hefty amount of middle-class and upper-middle-class white men of the previous generation (35ish or more) who are silently (sometimes) doubting Obama simply because of his race. They are, of course, extremely uncomfortable talking about this, and they insist that it’s because “he speaks like a liberal advertisement” or something like that. As if rhetoric is a new tool in politics.

    This is a man who, because of his race, understands that problems and solutions are both sides of the same coin. This is an intelligent, genuine person who believes that America’s government made many huge mistakes in the past eight years. This is a president who has faith in science and technology, and doesn’t believe in quasireligious, extremist mumbojumbo. This is a man who believes in freedom. YES, America is ready for Obama. In fact, “ready” is the wrong word. Obama is necessary for this nation.

  • Anon

    new york, (222),

    I’m a middle-class, white male roughly three times the age of your 20-plus-something generation. I am sure the choice of US president will affect the world we all live in critically.

    So I wish the hell I could vote for Obama, if even what you have written was all I knew. But I can’t. I’m not American. My future, our future, is in your hands. Please, please get it right.

  • #220. Lex
    For all of you that are basing your opinions based on the speeches he gives/gave, keep in mind, kiddies, that he doesn’t write his speeches. They are written for him, as it is with most president/presidential candidates.
    ****
    Oh, Lexie, how wrong can you be?
    Both Barak and Michell Obama write their own speeches.
    McCain has his speeches written for him, and can’t even read them!
    Before you make sweeping statements about someone, try doing some homework, instead of making assumptions.
    Assumptions are the fall-back position of those who have no actual knowledge.

  • Anon

    segue,

    Ass-umptions? Fall-back? I like it! Spike Milligan 2.

  • Anon

    To return to serious mode. Inevitably I must override those here (US voters or not) who sincerely do not or cannot accept my (non-US) concern over potentially disastrous climate-change and its origins.

    However, as a white Caucasian male of exactly the same age as McCain, I believe it is critical and imperative that the next US leader must grasp the nettle of rapid changes to meet the crisis. Of the two, I believe that only Obama is likely to have the radical mindset and vigour to meet the challenge. His colour and origins are irrelevant to the issue. It is global and he is a citizen of the world. Whether he can overcome the massive inertia and resistance involved is another question.

  • Mark

    I don’t care if the potus is white, black, purple, etc. as long he does a good job.

  • Anon 225, I chose my words *very* carefully. :-)

    And to all of you twenty-something’s who think that only the younger generation is ready for a black President; Which generation do you think marched with Dr. Martin L. King jr. to achieve civil rights for blacks? Which generation took buses down south to sign blacks up to vote, and took the beatings and arrests (and worse) for their trouble? Which generation made sure the little black children, who were the first to integrate the white schools, made it safely there and back home? Which generation sat at the “blacks only” lunch counters, until they were served, or dragged away by the local Sheriff?
    It was the generation of your parents, your grandparents. It was a generation of dreamers and doers; a generation who believed they could move mountains, and did.
    We’re still here, we still dream, we still believe, we still do, and we still will move mountains.

  • Nellie

    He will get assassinated.
    End of.

  • Nick Palla

    # 196

    We all live in the same country, Whether the backrounds differ or not,we still can have the same problems.
    I don’t look to Obama as a savior,I look to him as a good candidate for presidency,a person who might,just might change something,make the U.S better,or maybe not,how much can he mess up in four years?( I realize im probably going to regret this as some form of irony in the near future :-P)

  • Melanie

    “How prominent is racism in the US?” Very prominent. But not necessarily against minorities.

    We have black TV stations, black magazines, black organizations, and black legislation. While I agree that in certain parts of the country racism is rampant, large cities are very diverse and racism is considerably a non-issue.

    In my subdivision on my street we have families who are white, black, hispanic, hindu, greek, muslim, chinese, and vietnamese. Off the top of my head. It’s really a non-issue. America is much more diverse than 30 years ago.

    Many families have a white and black parent. White teenagers date black teenagers. For the most part it’s become irrelevant in my area.

    Hispanics are growing at such a large rate they will be the majority in a few generations.

    However, I think it’s unfortunate that many blacks still fall back on race and slavery instead of acknowledging personal responsibility. Life and progress are about ambition and determination; scholarships are abundant, opportunity is everywhere. You just have to work toward it.

  • TicoTuanis

    Jfrater: I think you made a mistake the topic should be “Is the US ready for an AFRICAN AMERICAN president?” because you might hurt people’s feelings if you write BLACK even if he is indeed black.

    I think the US is not ready because there is still a division of blacks and white. In an article in Newsweek it basically said that if you didn’t vote for NObama you were a racist.

  • RambleRon

    yes

  • malfore

    Obama is the only hope for America.

  • David

    Yes the US is ready for a black president but i do not feel that Barack Obama is the man for the job come November. For me John McCain is the man, he has more knowledge for the position and deserves it more. Politically McCain is the better man and if the US feel that they want to put someone in just for the color of their skin then at least get someone who is competent.

  • Xay

    As an African-American, I will be voting for Barack Obama, because of not only the brilliancy of his campaign and how he has been able to lift himself up from attacks from Hilary, Democrates, Republicans, McCain, and Bush, but also in regard to the fact this country no longer needs incompetent leaders such as Bush in office.

    I liked McCain for a small amount of time, before he started to become wishy washy in his criticism and allow ridiculous campaign smears to be aired on television and then say the presidential race should have some humor.

    He is pathetic now, and I’d rather have our nation rise or sink in the hands of someone new than another old, Republican white man who cares nothing for the plight of those under him.

  • Anon

    segue, (228),

    That’s why you got the Milligan award! Sorry to have pointed up thge obvious by crude analysis. I didn’t want to risk its subtlety causing it not to be fully appreciated.

  • clevelandemt

    # 236

    You know who was another republican white man, abraham lincoln, thanks for grouping every “white male republican” together and showing race is still a factor.

  • #237. Anon
    segue, (228),
    That’s why you got the Milligan award! Sorry to have pointed up the obvious by crude analysis. I didn’t want to risk its subtlety causing it not to be fully appreciated.
    ****
    Sometimes subtlety is a curse, but it’s one I’ll just have to live with.
    ;-)

  • Anon

    segue,

    But a sublime curse.

  • Sarah

    I hope so, but I think a lot of Americans might say they are but vote differently.

    I think he’s got a fight on his hands because of his color, he’d be a dead cert otherwise which is pretty sad.

    Time will tell.

  • Xay

    #238

    I don’t consider Lincoln better than the next. Freeing the slaves wasn’t done in opposition to the atrocities of slavery, it was done as a political ploy and war strategy.

  • Xay

    I’ll also add race is a factor, though it shouldn’t be. I highly doubt we will ever see a black republican candidate vying for president…ever…

  • clevelandemt

    #242

    I agree freeing the slaves was political but lincoln is great for having the resolve to bring a divided nation back together even though it was unpopular in the north.

    #243

    Colin powell became chairman of the joint chiefs and secretary of state as a black republican, why can’t we have a black republican president, somebody always has to be first

  • Actually, here is exactly where McCain showed his true ineptitude.
    Colin Powell would have been the best choice for Vice-President (actually, he would have been the best Republican choice for President), he is intelligent, experienced, and centered. Instead, McCain chose an inexperienced, far to the right-wing running mate, solely because:
    A – she was a woman
    and
    B – held views even more extreme than his own.
    This should come back to bite McCain in the butt, still, politics is a weird animal. Just when you think you have it figured out, it turns around and does exactly the opposite.

  • badlist

    hopefully this gets read.

    The saddest part about this entire election is that race keeps getting brought up. and even sadder is the shear number of people that are going to rush to the polls just to vote for this man because hes black. they have no idea what he stands for besides “change”(what does that even mean? could he be anymore vague?) Its absolutely embarrassing to walk through the grocery store and see the 20 somethings with the Obama shirts on that say nothing other than “change” and they have no fucking clue what this mans values are or what he stands for. NO CLUE.

    Hopefully these brats actually do a little homework and learn about both candidates before they go sprinting to the polls to vote for someone that flip flops more than a pair of fucking sandals.

    To be honest i really dont care who these people vote for as long as they educate themselves first as to what each of the candidates stands for.

    And as for the people that will say this is all about me being a republican. Fine. We all have an agenda. But before you spew the nonsense from your mouth that you call an opinion. Read up on the inexperienced candidate youre about to cast your vote for and the fact that his running mate probably would choose the other guy if it came down to leadership and experience

  • rushfan

    Wow, badlist, I’ve never read a comment from you that included complete sentences before. ;) I think you made a good point.

  • Liam

    Bucslim-

    Jefferson and Lincoln were America’s prophets. Roosevelt and Washington – eh… so so.

    Barack Obama, if elected, will do as much as or more than Lincoln or Jefferson, but probably as much. McCain is a shithead^76 and would ultimately destroy this country. So, in comparison to all of the twentieth and twenty-first century candidates for president, yes Obama is almost the best candidate ever. The others include Kennedy, Jefferson, Lincoln, maybe George Washington, and a fraction of Roosevelt.

    P.S. I understand your Virgin Mary reference, but I might as well tell you that she never existed.

  • Yun

    Is the US ready for a black president? Yes.

    Does that mean we are obligated to vote for an unexperienced radical with a racist mentor who started his political campaign in the home of an unrepentant terrorist? No.

    Don’t confuse rejecting Obama with rejecting the idea of a black president. I’ll vote for a black president some day… just not this one.

  • Ro

    Yes. I’ve taken a good look at both Obama and McCain and clearly without a shadow of a doubt Obama’s a thousand times better to lead America. He is above race I think, and very much determined to be the next president. The question is: is America ready for a muslim president?

  • Anon

    badlist,

    “To be honest i really dont care who these people vote for as long as they educate themselves first as to what each of the candidates stands for.”

    Never mind the 20 somethings. Never mind the party preference. ¿Pass an exam on knowledge of the issues and the candidates before you’re allowed to vote? Wow, That’d really thin them out.

  • Blogball

    Xay, I know it’s fashionable these days to downplay Lincoln’s involvement in the anti slave movement but did you know his parents were anti-slavery, and young Abe also carried these views?
    He also said “I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. That sounds to me like a little more than a political ploy and war strategy.
    How about giving just a little bit more credit where credit is due.

  • Cedestra

    Anon and badlist,
    Yeah, but you’d be surprised at which party would be thinned out the most…
    Just sad seeing a gross assumption like that being made, that a “Change” t-shirt, support of Obama, and being between the ages of 18 and 30 makes you a retard. Same could be said to those who listen to Rush Limbaugh and vote solely on his “pearls of wisdom”. (Sorry, Rushfan, I went there, but I will say the same about those who watch “The Daily Show” as their only source of political information.)

  • Anon

    Cedestra, (253),

    “Anon and badlist,
    Yeah, but you’d be surprised at which party would be thinned out the most…”

    Ah, but would I?

  • sue

    I most certainly hope so,coz I’m 1000000% behind him:)

  • henry o

    segue #224:

    Where did you get the idea that Obama writes his own speeches? Jon Favreau has received a lot of press coverage recently. Obama collaborates with him & 2 others:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/fashion/20speechwriter.html

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/84756/output/print

  • k1w1taxi

    Coming in late, but the choice of Palin is a bad mistake if McCain is hoping she will pick up the disaffected Clinton vote.

    Apart from being a woman Palin appears to share absolutely nothing with Hillary so why would a Clinton supporter vote for her over Obama?

    Is the USA ready for a Black President? I’m not convinced but I view the fact that one of the two main parties did not feature a white male as a serious candidate for nomination to be a big step forward.

    Cheers
    Lee

  • abhilash warrier

    Yes, I believe they are ready. So he is Obama. And the rest of the world will sigh a sense of relief.

    Hopefully, this is the last we see of Dubya!

  • charlie

    yes the United States is ready for a black president it just isn’t Obama.

  • matts

    @Yun 249, I was going to write something and then read your response. Far more succinct that I would have been and right on target. Thanks.

  • Sarah At The Disco

    I don’t think it matters what color his skin is.
    I’m 13, and don’t really know anything about politics, but he seems like a pretty cool guy if I might say so myelf. Theres a really cool song about him by the hush sound. Its called We Believe [in barack obama] its really funny. You should hear it.

  • AlyshiaH

    I see no point in discussing color of skin. It in all honesty dosent make us any different in side. We just look different. that being said, i am a US citizen, and i will be voteing for Obama. Not because he is a black man, but because i agree with his views, and i believe that this country needs to change, and MAKE PEACE WITH THE WORLD!!! No more war, no more sending my family and friends over seas to protect the oil that G.W. Bush is so tied into. You realize that his family is very very very close with the afgani (sp?) leader, and very tied in with all the oil companies in the country. John McCain is wanting to continue the war for OVER 100 YEARS!! Yeah he said it in a speech or two. I will not stay in this country is McCain is voted in. I wont do another 4 years of the same crap, i wont watch my country go down the drain. I have done my part for the change, i donate to Obama, i go to his rallies in my town, and i will vote for him. IF McCAIN WINS I WILL MOVE TO CANADA, maybe mexico sence i dont like the snow…

  • Rinneganleks

    Why the heck would you vote for the current Elephant ticket? Giving Sarah the position of being the second highest official of the world’s strongest nation? I mean, what the f*ck! She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid.( I guess his brains is starting to experience the toll of gettin’ old.) Therefore, this just reflects what kindov choices he’s gonna make when he becomes the President. Utter stupidity. ( Plus his pro-war agendas.)

    Sadly, the maxims of the Elephants nowadays strongly deviates and differs from what the Elephants were back then (Lincoln times)

    The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.

    Goin’ back to the real issue,
    I believe America is ready ferit.
    To be more specific,
    America is ready for Barack Obama.

    Dems rule!

  • clownsocks32

    you guys are so lucky to have somebody like Obama to run for president. out here in Canada we get to choose between

    a) a bush wannabe (Harper)
    b) somebody who can’t set priorities (Dion)
    c) Quebec separatist (Duceppe)
    d) a nutcase (Layton)

  • Blogball

    Rinneganleks said “Why the heck would you vote for the current Elephant ticket? Giving Sarah the position of being the second highest official of the world’s strongest nation? I mean, what the f*ck! She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid.( I guess his brains is starting to experience the toll of gettin’ old.) Therefore, this just reflects what kindov choices he’s gonna make when he becomes the President. Utter stupidity. ( Plus his pro-war agendas.)
    Sadly, the maxims of the Elephants nowadays strongly deviates and differs from what the Elephants were back then (Lincoln times)
    The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.
    Goin’ back to the real issue,
    I believe America is ready ferit.
    To be more specific,
    America is ready for Barack Obama.
    Dems rule!”

    Rinneganlek, I know you are on the fringe just like there are plenty of ’elephants” on the fringe but you are really making an ass( No pun intended) out of yourself when you make such ignorant statements. Most of my friends identify themselves as democrats “and you my friend are not a democrat”. I happen to be a republican but without even asking “all” of my friends would not agree with what you just posted

  • Panic!

    Okay, is this actually something to debate over?

    Americans are NOT ready for a black president. We are all a bunch of racist, prejudiced BASTARDS who can’t even wrap our minds around the concept of gay marriage, and you’re saying that we’re going to elect a black president?

    Fat chance!

    Don’t get me wrong, I would love for Obama to win, but I think that our last series of elections have proven that the American public, as a whole, is fucking stupid. After electing Bush for a SECOND term, I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone moved to amend the constitution so that we could elect him for a third.

    Old white people are what American’s feel safe with. Old white people who aren’t a fan of the gays. We should all just be happy that a black man made it on the ballot. That’s step one, folks. It’s going to be many, many years before we’re ready to actually have a black president, or a president of any other non-white race.

    That is, assuming the American empire hasn’t already fallen by then…

  • Panic!

    Also, as I’m reading some of these, I’m seeing a lot of posts to the effect of “ohmegawd, why are we even discussing skin color, that’s not even an issue, you guys are racists”…

    Have any of you been to the southern United States?

    Living in a southern Missouri redneck town teaches you that actually, yeah, it matters a hell of a lot. I really wish it didn’t, but there are a bunch of redneck republicans that aren’t even really sure what the term “republican” means (they just know that “they ain’t electing no colored folk”) who I assure you will vote purely, PURELY based on the color of the candidate’s skin.

    So yeah, hate to say it, but a majority of southern US is going to make the color of his skin extremely relevant.

  • Panic!

    @261

    You’re my favorite.

    The Hush Sound = awesome. =]

  • Liam #248

    “Barack Obama, if elected, will do as much as or more than Lincoln or Jefferson, but probably as much.”

    Explain, in detail, how Obama will do as much or more than Lincoln or Jefferson.

    What is your basis for this statement? His extensive (not) voting record in the Senate? His foreign policy? How many budgets has he balanced? What critical problems facing the nation has he solved or has a solution to? How is he going to stimulate the economy? How is he going to solve our energy problems? What in his past has convinced you, other than his speeches, that he’s ready to be president?

    And before you answer, he’ll answer my questions for you, Change we can believe in. That’s it. So I seriously doubt you can have anything to say about Obama’s potential activities being on the same level as freeing the slaves and leading us during a civil war (Lincoln) or writing the Declaration of Independence and being a major contributor to the Constitution (Jefferson) Your statement makes little sense in light of those monumental contributions by those great men.

    You have no sense of the history of this country, and thus have no basis for making the ridiculous claim that he is “almost the best candidate ever.”

  • bucslim

    Panic! – I guess those redneck Republicans were duped into thinking JC Watts wasn’t ‘colored’ in your terms, when he got elected from that redneck state of Oklahoma. And I guess that Colin Powell bleached his skin when he was Secretary of State. And you’ll probably come back to tell me that Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas were Uncle Toms who betrayed their race when they had the audacity to be conservative, not to mention Thomas Sowell and Alan Keyes.

    Your post 267 is one of the most ignorant, stupid and racist posts I’ve seen on this website. Just because you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town doesn’t mean the rest of us behave that way. According to you, we’re supposed to vote for Obama BECAUSE he’s black. Sorry, Jesse Jackson already tried that.

  • XclashdavX

    Black, Asian, White, Native American… who cares. Do not raise taxes, lower government spending and keep this country from becoming a social state, that is all I care about.

  • Bob

    Obama isn’t black, though. He’s a white man who’s traded on what little black blood he has as well as his rich white family. Why will people insist that this man is black? If the one drop rule applies, then I suppose everybody is just about everything in this country. Just another rich person running for office.

  • bucslim

    Rinneganleks #263

    “She can’t even guide her own daughter not to be f*cked by some perv guy! And rest tells that she’s a conservative? Whooah… On John’s side, picking Sarah as her VP makes him stupid”

    “The Reps nowadays still have the tinge of pro-slavery and extreme conservatism in their organizational veins.”

    Nice – another ignorant Democrat Liberal shows his/her ass on this website. How exactly is someone’s daughter getting pregnant have anything whatsoever to do with national politics? Now I’m supposed to vote for Obama because McCain’s running mate’s kid is pregnant? Yeah, that’ll solve everything! And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?

    Complete and utter horsehit.

  • bucslim

    Uh. . .complete and utter h-o-r-s-e-s-h-i-t.

  • Anon

    So much of this cascade of often virulent discord depresses me. I think I’ll just slink off and wait to see what happens when the time comes. Without over-much hope.

  • Sedulous

    For one, it is generally acceptable for a black person to become president. There will always be racists against every race and haters against every religion, belief system, and political view. So yes, the fact that Obama is even the democratic nominee shows this. At this point it will be based on the campaign.

    My biggest concern with Obama is that we know nothing about him except he’s good at getting up in front of people and talking. Bucslim made some great points in #269.

    I’m a conservative guy and I have some liberal friends and we have healthy discussions and aren’t “kool-aid drinkers” who buy everything from one political party. Some of you guys are here are completely psychotic. Thankyou Bucslim for bringing some actual logic to the discussion.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Oh for the love of Christ.

    “His extensive (not) voting record in the Senate?”

    FALSEHOOD. This nonsense got started with Obama’s voting record in the *Illinois STATE senate.* He did not vote in a number of instances there, which is common… he voted “present”–a practice in Illinois which expresses disapproval for a bill without actually voting against it. It was not the majority of his votes, and in fact he sponsored a large number of bills on all manner of legislation. His record in the US senate does NOT reflect a pattern of “not voting” at all… he has in fact voted regularly and again has sponsored a substantial amount of legislation.

    This is just pure right wing smear tactics, this lie that Obama “doesn’t vote.” It’s pure bullshit.

    “His foreign policy?”

    And let’s have a discussion of Bush’s and McCain’s foreign policy. More blunders and illegal aggressions, that’s about what it amounts to.

    “How many budgets has he balanced?”

    How many have the Republicans balanced over the last 8 years?

    But let’s just point out that Obama has run a campaign with enormous funds at his disposal and he has kept it in the black the entire time while his opponents on BOTH sides of the aisle ran theirs into the red. So there’s a budget he’s kept very well. Good enough for you?

    “What critical problems facing the nation has he solved or has a solution to?”

    This is such bullshit I can’t believe it. I know you were responding to the over-the-top comments of the original poster, but please… A) what candidate has EVER solved problems facing the nation, other than a sitting president? B) name ONE problem McCain has authoritatively addressed. And C) Obama HAS laid out his solutions to many of the problems currently facing us. He’s done this on his website, spoken of them in public, and just laid out much of his plan in his recent acceptance speech at the Democratic convention.

    So enough with the crap.

    “How is he going to stimulate the economy? How is he going to solve our energy problems?”

    Again, see above. It isn’t Obama’s fault (or mine) if you just DON’T LISTEN or have your right-wing head too far up your ass to HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.

    I like you, man, but I can’t stand it when people like you just repeat this blather like it’s some Pure Truth. It’s the furthest thing from it.

    “What in his past has convinced you, other than his speeches, that he’s ready to be president?”

    Pray tell, bucslim, what EVER convinces you that a man is ready to be president? Did you think Bush was “ready” in 2000? Why, because he came from that family, and because he was governor of Texas? Big fucking deal.

    What makes a man “ready” to be president? Can you answer that? I’ll be damned if I can. MOST presidents grow up in the job. But yes, Obama is “ready” to accept the challenge because he’s clearly A) gotten things done on the local and national level, in the senate as well as back home, (and you want particulars, there’s whole websites out there devoted to his record. Again, it isn’t my fault if you can’t take the time to GO AND LOOK). B) he has the judgement, character, and temperament that fits a statesman. C) he’s an intelligent and thoughtful man, obviously, with some sort of vision. And this vision is what we need to get back on track in this country. You don’t like it, too bad… as I’ve said before, it’s time to drop the 80s/90s political crap and join the rest of us in the 21st century. “Obama too liberal” my ass. That old argument doesn’t cut it anymore. Stop living in the polarized politics of our parents and grandparents, bucslim. We’re in our 40s now, it’s time to grow up and realize that the world has changed.

  • Randall

    Sedulous:

    Sorry, but I really do get sick of this nonsense:

    “My biggest concern with Obama is that we know nothing about him except he’s good at getting up in front of people and talking.”

    Then what you’ve just done is prove that you have your head in the sand and can’t take the time to investigate and LISTEN. Your statement is that of a piss-poor citizen who won’t take the time to open up a political journal or even a goddamn Newsweek magazine or a decent newspaper, or just cruise onto Obama’s own web site to FIND OUT what he stands for and who he is.

    Note the “we” in your statement. Well don’t include ME or others who support Obama in your collective ignorance, Sedulous. I support Obama because I looked into the man’s record and found out who he was long ago, and I found there what I thought this country needed after the worst 8 years in my adult memory, if not my ENTIRE memory. I don’t “worship” Obama nor am I some “Kool Aid” drinker who believes what a particular party has doled out to him. I have a brain and use advanced thought processes to make my decisions. But you, by parroting this bullshit right-wing nonsense that we don’t “know” Obama, have simply showed yourself up to be in neglect of your thought processes and closed off to reality.

    The only question I have is, is it just polarized and cemented political dogma making you this way, or is it the cynicism too many of us have sunk to, in general? Maybe you can answer that.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    “And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?”

    Let’s begin with decades of conservative votes against *every manner* of legislation meant to address entrenched racist policies at the governmental as well as private levels in this country. And then let’s talk about repeated attacks by the right wing on Affirmative Action; attacks not only meant to correct its excesses but clearly meant to undermine it completely and begin the process of rolling it back entirely. Let’s talk about a party that has essentially written off the African-American community at every turn, who instead of choosing to listen to that community to hear its grievances, chooses to ignore them and occasionally (at most) lecture said community on its sense of “entitlement” as though the black community should just shut up and accept the fact that whatever’s wrong with it is its own fault. Meanwhile, we have nearly a quarter of the population of adult male blacks in prison, and a larger segment of the black population still lives in poverty than any other racial group. And what do Republicans have to say about this? Nothing. They just continue to pass more “tough on crime” legislation and continue to foster a political worldview that says if you have a problem, you need to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

    I think the fact that you asked that question, pal, indicates how out of touch you’ve become. C’mon. Join me in walking away from the conservative bullshit. *I* found out it was wrong and full of lies in the 1990s. It’s time for you to do the same, if you want to call yourself an informed and intelligent citizen.

  • Randall ~ I know that was for Bucslim, but I gotta ask…

    Let me get this straight, being against affirmative action equals being pro-slavery?

    And as for “instead of choosing to listen to that community to hear its grievances, chooses to ignore them and occasionally (at most) lecture said community on its sense of “entitlement” as though the black community should just shut up and accept the fact that whatever’s wrong with it is its own fault,” You might have us confused with Bill Cosby, a rather smart black man who doesn’t fall in line with your view of things as they are.

    “Meanwhile, we have nearly a quarter of the population of adult male blacks in prison, and a larger segment of the black population still lives in poverty than any other racial group.” Are you seriously blaming anyone except the folks involved?

    Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting people to be of assistance in their own success or failure. Of course there are outside forces that impact their lives that they can’t control, but you’re acting as if no strides have been made, as if every minority is still oppressed, as if all hope is lost, as if government could or should have all the answers and help every single person succeed. In this country you’re guaranteed the *right* to persue happiness, not have it handed to you. Look around, people get out of poverty every day, and they do it mostly on their own, they don’t need you, Randall, or Obama to do it for them.

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    “Let me get this straight, being against affirmative action equals being pro-slavery?”

    Ha ha, cute kid. Nice try. I was clear enough in what I said. Don’t try to paint me as some off-the-wall nut. The stuff will spray all over you and you can’t wash that shit out.

    As I said, the opposition to affirmative action has consistently gone BEYOND merely addressing its excesses. And that, yes, is what equals a kind of racism. “Pro-slavery” was the original poster’s words, not mine. But they’ll do for the kind of subtle racism proferred by the right wing.

    “Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie.”

    HA HA HA! Wonderful! You haven’t a CLUE as to who you’re talking to, rushfan. I was a conservative probably BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. I had conservative credentials that you could only dream of, if you’d want to dream about such absurd things. Want a list? I’d be happy to provide.

    “Stuck in the sixties” my ass. “Hippie” my ass. You’re a deluded youngster who has no clue to the reality of the world out there. Clearly you like to think you have said clue. But worshipping Rush Limbaugh isn’t a qualification for it, rushfan. And neither is mouthing the dogma of a failed party and a failed system and worldview, dear.

    “…you’re acting as if no strides have been made, as if every minority is still oppressed, as if all hope is lost”

    I AM? And where, pray tell, did I say ANY of this? (In fact I believe nothing of the kind).

    YOU, in fact, are pretending that all is rosy or headed to rosey-ness. Nice delusion, and I wink at it. Keep it up. It’s the way to keep one’s head stuck in the ground. Things are always happier that way, if you pretend the world is always getting better just because some moron on the radio tells you so, rushfan.

    “…as if government could or should have all the answers and help every single person succeed.”

    Typical right-wing trick, re-inventing what I said to say something ENTIRELY different. In fact I said NOTHING OF THE KIND and do NOT believe this at all.

    I was there, pulling bullshit debating tricks like that, again, BEFORE YOU WERE BORN rushfan. Nice try, but it doesn’t work on me.

    LOOK AROUND YOURSELF, rushfan. Yup, some people get out of poverty on their own, sure thing, Tex. Many, however, are held down by ignorance, racism, and any number of other gamings of the system against them.

    You forget or do not know that I come from a very different background from you. (at least, as I recall from what you’ve said about yourself on this site, in the past). I *know* from personal, first hand experience how the centers of power both economic and governmental work in this country—I’ve been there. You’re a deluded child if you think much of the system as it is is not gamed against the common, working class citizen.

    NONE of this is about government “doing it for us” or “handing” happiness to us. I don’t believe that in the least. What I DO know and believe, however, is that there is a VASTLY unfair field out there that most people are forced to play on–and many of them, like you, don’t even know it or can’t even see it. You’ve bought into a bullshit distorted view of reality and there are people right now sitting somewhere laughing *heartily* at your fervent support for the way they want things to be and stay.

  • DUDE, you said it, don’t give me that cute, kid shit, old timer.

    ““And what exactly is the ‘tinge of pro-slavery’ in Republican policies?”

    Let’s begin with decades of conservative votes against *every manner* of legislation meant to address entrenched racist policies at the governmental as well as private levels in this country. And then let’s talk about repeated attacks by the right wing on Affirmative Action.” You were more than comfortable flowing straight from slavery to affirmative action.

    Also, I love how you brag about your time spent as a “conservative.” So what, Randall. You’re on the wrong side of history now and that’s all that matters. You’re smug and smart and I expect more from you. I fear your years in liberal academia have made you who you are. You are self-righteous and dismissive and happy to sit in your office and lecture us about the real world from your comfy chair about how we’re all responsible for poverty and oppression of minorities. And you call me and Bucslim out of touch.

  • 280. rushfan…Talk about out of touch, you’re still lost in the sixties, hippie.
    ****
    rushfan, just as a point of actual history here. Randall referred to himself as being in his 40’s. That would make him *far* too young to have been a hippie.
    The hippie’s were born in the late 40’s to mid 50’s, no later, some earlier.
    Randall loses by a decade.

  • segue ~ Randall’s mind transcends time. He thinks like a hippie ergo he’s a hippie. He’s a lib who used to be conservative so he thinks he knows it all, that he can somehow represent both sides and therefore gain some credibility. I know how old he is, just as he knows how old I am. He’s regressing from the progress I *thought* we had made.

  • Callie

    I see no point in discussing color of skin. It in all honesty dosent make us any different in side. We just look different. that being said, i am a US citizen, and i will be voteing for Obama. Not because he is a black man, but because i agree with his views, and i believe that this country needs to change, and MAKE PEACE WITH THE WORLD!!! No more war, no more sending my family and friends over seas to protect the oil that G.W. Bush is so tied into. You realize that his family is very very very close with the afgani (sp?) leader, and very tied in with all the oil companies in the country. John McCain is wanting to continue the war for OVER 100 YEARS!! Yeah he said it in a speech or two. I will not stay in this country is McCain is voted in. I wont do another 4 years of the same crap, i wont watch my country go down the drain. I have done my part for the change, i donate to Obama, i go to his rallies in my town, and i will vote for him. IF McCAIN WINS I WILL MOVE TO CANADA, maybe mexico sence i dont like the snow…

    hahahaha..Democrats. Randall do you feel happy she’s on your side?

    McCain 08

  • p.s. His lengthy absense tells me he’s writing a lengthy tretise about how wrong I am and how right he is. My spidey senses tell me it will include quotes from my posts with eloquent responses as well as many asterisks for dramatic effect. :)

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    “Also, I love how you brag about your time spent as a “conservative.” So what, Randall.”

    So what, honey? Been there, done that, that’s what “so what.” I know what I did, where I was, the things I was involved with, the people I was involved with, how close I was to the beating heart of the movement. I’m secure in those credentials more than you can ever know, ashamed of them as I know am.

    “You’re on the wrong side of history now”

    Always the people who truly ARE on the wrong side of history are the first to accuse others of being so.

    You’ve mistakenly pegged me as some left-wing elitist. You haven’t the faintest clue how wrong you are. I’d love to educate you on it, but I’m highly doubtful you’d *actually* listen. I know the mindset you’re exhibiting far too well.

    “You’re smug and smart”

    Guilty.

    “and I expect more from you. I fear your years in liberal academia have made you who you are.”

    HA HA HA! Another wonderful bit of nonsense. :-)

    Time will tell which one of us is right, rushfan. If you have the self-awareness and honesty of mind to recognize it.

  • Randall

    callie:

    Huh? Who? “She” is on MY side? To whom are you referring?

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    by the way, I was hating hippies and railing against them, AGAIN, before you were born. I still hate hippies. Calling me one really burns my ass. You’ll be hearing from my attorney, therefore.

    Disrespectful brat.

  • Randall ~ If you can’t even ackowledge what every person in American knows, that colleges and universities are overwhelmingly liberal, than you’ve said it all, right there.

  • HIPPIE!

    *sticking out my tongue and running away*

  • Callie

    calm down Randall..that wasn’t a personal attack, you’re just the most vocal Obama suppoerter on this site. I was referring to the poster who wrote what I quoted being on your side (surely you didn’t think I would write something that disjointed.) It was comment 262.

  • Callie

    thats true Rush..MAN it’s hard to be a republican in college. did anyone see that Scrubs episode where they debate Iraq and Elliot stands up and proudly states she’s a conservative? That’s where I am now, but I did stay mum about in in school. I regret that.

  • trojan_man

    callie: go “independent”…that way no one will expect much from you.

  • Callie ~ You had me! I thought that was your post and dude I was disappointed. Use quotation marks, dude. :)

  • Callie

    we need a “quote this” button. Get on that jamie :)

  • mvenges

    If Obama loses its not because he’s black but because he’s a socialist. Not that there’s anything wrong with that (Scandanavia has a pretty good version of it). But Americans like spending money and are not very open to a big government trying to dictate how they should be spending. Someone has to pay for all the goodies Obama is promising (in addition to Bush’s donations to the rich over the past 8 years), be it now or in the future. I’m not convinced Obama’s current ideas will raise enough money to even come close. And most Americans would agree with me that higher taxes suck.
    But then again, maybe there is actually real CHANGE in the wind.

  • That’s not change, I farted. Trust me, you’ll know real change when you hear it. It will include education reform, dealing with social security, reducing government spending, dealing with America’s prison problem intelligently, tort reform, none of these things are even being addressed. No one’s even asking.

  • bucslim

    I agree with everything rushfan said, in fact, I think I’m falling in love with her, and disagree with most of what Randall said, so there.

    Randall – dude – bro – homie, listen, you’re right I was bringing down the douchenozzle from before, not comparing the two candidates. You’ve got to agree that I was right on and those peeps were out of line. Can’t you see what I’m saying? For God sake that dude was putting him up there with Lincoln and Jefferson!!! Those two idiots couldn’t be more full of shit than the outhouse pit in the park after Memorial Day!

    Now I gotta run, apparently my head is stuck up my right wing ass.

    As for rushfan – meet me behind the bleachers after school.

  • bucslim

    Unless you’re a dude.

  • mvenges

    rushfan, I was trying to be sarcastic by saying that there was “real CHANGE in the wind” but I guess I did a poor job. I do agree with you. All the important reforms you mentioned are pressing. But they are also all political hot potatoes and nothing will move forward until things break down and there’s no alternative but to have tangible reform. Obama won’t change much, especially with the lousy partisan job Congress will likely continue to do even if he is elected. But I do think he is the lesser of two evils coz at least he publicly recognizes the demage Bush’s policies have done over the past 8 years. If any reforms are actually going to happen, it’s more likely going to be under Obama than McCain. Both candidates will do a similarly fine job (better than Bush). But Obama will bring with him new faces with fresh ideas while McCain will likely retain many of Bush’s people (or God, no more Cheney please). Plus I’m very uncomfortable with having an unbalanced supreme court for the next 30 years, which is a distinct possibility if McCain wins.

  • Kase

    Bucslim-“Panic! – I guess those redneck Republicans were duped into thinking JC Watts wasn’t ‘colored’ in your terms, when he got elected from that redneck state of Oklahoma. And I guess that Colin Powell bleached his skin when he was Secretary of State. And you’ll probably come back to tell me that Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas were Uncle Toms who betrayed their race when they had the audacity to be conservative, not to mention Thomas Sowell and Alan Keyes.
    Your post 267 is one of the most ignorant, stupid and racist posts I’ve seen on this website. Just because you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town doesn’t mean the rest of us behave that way. According to you, we’re supposed to vote for Obama BECAUSE he’s black. Sorry, Jesse Jackson already tried that.”
    But a black president running is different than Colin Powell, or Condi Rice running for something. The presidential running takes up all of the nighttime television for several months, and steals all publicity from everything else prior to and post the election. The whole country can see it, and I hate to tell you, but there are way WAY more racist people than you realize. America as a whole isn’t ready. I mean white men are still afraid to call an ‘African American’ ‘Black’ in a public setting. And how would anything in congress really work if half the members lean toward whatever the president says, because he is black, and don’t want to be known as the ‘African dream stomper’ and the other half leans away from him because they are trying too hard to not agree with everything he says, via his blackness, or are actually racist.

    And what? Panic wasn’t saying vote for him because he was black, he was just trying to shed some light on the concept with what he knows from his own town. My town is very much like his. And like we said, America as a whole isn’t ready. You are right, just because we have some rednecks in our town who are racist, doesn’t mean the rest of America is….. but America(all of America) isn’t ready. He wasn’t being racist…

    but you where. “you might have some in-bred white trash morons in your town”

    not all of us are inbred white trash here in the south, and most of us can actually count above twenty, without using our toes…… ya racist.

    -Kase

  • rushfan

    mvenges, no, I got you, I thought it was pretty clear that I was being sarcastic. :) I thought you made some descent points, except for the obligatory Bush-bashing. I’m not all up in the guy’s junk, but he’s not the anti-christ any more than Obama is the Messiah or McCain is my grandpa John, well McCain may be…anyhoo…yeah, I’m a chick, bucslim, you know that. ;)

  • Anon

    I’m tempted to slink back to offer this food for thought to those who are tepidly pro-Obama or tepidly anti. (The rest of you are too far over one side or the other to make any difference.)

    It intrigues me how similar in many respects is Obama to Tony Blair during the latter’s run-up to the British premiership. The same doubts were thrown around about his relative youth and lack of experience, about him being high on charisma and vitality, and little else. It might also be said he won because voters were disillusioned with a tired and ineffectual right-wing opposition despite its greater experience in office.

    In the end his popularity waned, which tends to be par for the course (Churchill, Thatcher). But he had the sense to quit while more or less still on top, and is still active and respected in various spheres in a way that somewhat parallels Jimmy Carter.

    What intrigued me was the often ungrudging support and admiration he won over the course of his terms from so many of our less than died-in-the-wool right-wing fellow British friends, not to mention the voting public at large. These friends, like myself (I am essentially of a mildly leftish liberal turn) would never, ever have voted for a traditional dogmatic Socialist regime. Never in a month of Sundays.

    I don’t want to push this comparison. There is a world of difference of course between transatlantic politics and publics, the roles of PM and president, and that of the two nations in the modern world. It’s really just offering a hint, perhaps even a hope, than things underway may turn out a lot more positive than election time neurosis tends to suggest. (Assuming Obama is elected.) Also that *playing safe* isn’t necessarily the best option.

    Randall,

    If you think people will understand your trajectory from conservative to your present liberal stance and accept it as personal and sincere, I fear you may be banging your head against a wall. My feeling is it needs someone who is old and creaking and has undergone the same process themselves, as I have. At least nobody could accuse me (as they do you) of institutional influence. I come from a comfortable middle-class background and have been self-employed or freelance all my life as well as a rabid individualist. These attributes are considered to be the traditional hallmark of a born right-winger! People only understand the standard evolution: start out a raving left wing student looney and reach the grave as a boring right wing fart. That’s what everyone expects and accepts without question. I began my political life with a strong belief that ruling-class conservative paternalism was best for the country. Mixed with that was an undying hatred (to this day) for dogmatic (rather than intelligent and minimal) left-wing state intervention. Ultimately I came to consider that both extremes can do good in their way, but both are tied in to powerful interests which control them: the tail wagging the dog syndrome. Wherever you move in politics you tend to win some and lose some, but it seems to me the liberal centre is point where least is lost. With his pragmatism (a British socialist leader working with Dubya???), probably Blair is the elected British leader who has managed to come closest to delivering those goods in practical terms during my lifetime.

  • My husband is a retired Air Force Major. He served four years in the Viet Nam conflict (and other countries we weren’t supposed to be in). He’d get finished with one rotation and immediately sign-up for another.
    He has every medal the Air Force awards, mostly several of them (I don’t even remember how many Distinguished Flying Crosses he has!).
    While he, like I, admire McCain’s service, he will not vote for him.
    His reasons are many and extremely intelligent, but can be boiled down to this: McCain’s judgment is flawed and flighty, it changes with the wind and whether or not McCain remembers what he said last time.
    I can go with that.

  • Brutally_Honest

    Well first off I will be voting for Obama.

    For the sole basis that I believe as a libertarian Obama will work for more “rights” and to preserve the “rights” of the populous

    I feel McCain would trample on more rights.

    I also feel Obama will better the economy.

    As far a skin color goes I’d vote for a Purple President over McCain / another Bush.

    That’s it Peanut for President!!! [Jeff Dun-Ham reference]

  • Brutally_Honest

    For the sole basis that I believe as a libertarian Obama will work for more “rights” and to preserve the “rights” of the populous

    edit. before I get disputed.

    I am a libertarian. Therefore from MY libertarian views… Obama is more rights friendly.

    I know Obama is a liberal. As my highly conservative friend would point out (who is voting for McCain based on that he is A. a Conservative and B. Devote Christian. Which is true for both my friend and McCain them.

  • rushfan

    We already had a peanut for president. Jimma Carter. (sorry, I realize you were making some sort of vantrilaquist joke or something)

    And why do you keep saying libertarian Obama? Dude, Obama wouldn’t even call himself a libertarian, he’s a flaming big-government anti-suv turn down your a/c and cling to your guns and god friend of Bill Ayers Harvard-educated Liberal!

  • 304. Anon…I come from a comfortable middle-class background and have been self-employed or freelance all my life as well as a rabid individualist…
    ****
    Good God! I knew we had more in common than we’d discovered so far!
    I’ll fill you in, but this is getting to be a bit like “separated at birth”.
    ;-)

  • bucslim

    Brutally- McCain ain’t conservative, just ask Rush Limbaugh, Anne Coulter and any other conservative.

    Kase – now I’m a racist for calling someone in-bred white trash? I thought I was a racist because I’m not voting for Obama. Funny how no one called me a racist when I didn’t vote for Jesse Jackson.

  • Anon

    My 304,

    dyed-in-the-wool, not “died-in-the-wool”, before tempyra kicks me in the spelling-bee again!

    It does though remind me of the famous response by MP Dennis Healey to criticism by opponent Geoffrey Howe in the British House of Commons, which Healey said was “like being savaged by a dead sheep”.

  • Anon

    Sorry, Tempyra,

    Of course, you’re an Upper Case person like me. (I’ve got to watch it with you, lest you ever look in here.)

  • Oh I have eyes everywhere ;-)

    I have been reading this topic, although I don’t really have a view on it.

  • astraya

    As a non-American, I’ve kept out of this so far, but here goes.
    1) If this question even needs to be asked, then the answer is probably “no”.
    2) Is it written somewhere in US history that “all men are created equal”? If so, then what’s the problem? If not, then why proclaim it?

  • jasontimmer

    Like others have said, this question doesn’t need to be asked. Obama is who America needs now in this desperate time, and he’s who I’ll be voting for. He’s the only one in a position to bring this country out of the depths that Bush has driven us into.

    And Jill W.- post #33 (I know, way back) you first say that race shouldn’t have anything to do with it, then the rest of your post is all about Obama’s race. Care to explain?

  • jasontimmer

    I’ve also got one question to ask fellow Americans here- has anyone considered voting McCain solely because you’ve completely given up on this country and are ready to see it die? (I have.)

  • rushfan

    jasontimmer ~ How is he “the only one in a position to bring this country out of the depths that Bush has driven us into. ” Exactly what position do you think he’s in? He’s just another politician, people, he’s not going to be the Savior-in-Chief or the Messiah of the United States of America. If he does *shudder* get elected, just watch how fast he drops the kook fringe left-wing base and runs toward the center. He’s already trying to do it now, so he’ll appeal to moderate voters. Just look at your precious Democratic congress. What exactly has Pelosi accomplished? Hmmm, can’t think of anything. Lefties are all talk and no action. After all, if they solved the problems they perpetually run on fixing, what would they run on?

  • Randall

    I can’t keep up on these things with my current schedule… now I have meetings all morning long and won’t be free until after lunch. *sigh.*

    What can I say? rushfan, stop hating liberals, they just want a sane and civilized country to live in, and they don’t agree with you on what IS sane and civilized. YOU want a sane and civilized country, yourself, no doubt, but I got news for you–ever since I was a little boy, I’ve seen this place grow for the most part LESS sane. Civilized I can’t speak to, it’s harder to gauge that.

    And actually I’m sick of these old definitions, liberal and conservative. They’re meaningless today. I look around and I don’t see the conservatives that I took to be conservatives when I was young—Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley and such. There’s no one like them, not even close, and I’m not talking in terms of gravity and character, but in terms of philosophy and ideas. The vast majority of people calling themselves “conservatives” today, in fact, would be detested by Goldwater, I’m sure.

    And the same goes with “liberal.” The term that *I* grew up with certainly wouldn’t have described Bill Clinton, say, and doesn’t describe Barack Obama.

    Left and Right have changed over the decades, but many people (rushfan, etc) are still clinging to the old definitions that just don’t work anymore.

    Sadly I have no more time, have to go. The upside of this is, I have little doubt that come November we’ll have a President Obama. I certainly hope this comes to pass.

    I was sitting in the backyard with my fourteen year old daughter recently, and I told her, “you know, you’re going to be seeing history soon… the first black man elected president.”

    My neighbor Mike then said to her, “it’ll be history either way. Either you’ll see the first black man elected president, or you’ll see the end of your democracy.” (Because 8 years of Bush and corporate control of the media has already driven it to the brink)

    A tad facetious, but not all that much.

  • Randall ~ Conservative and Liberal are common terms used in politics and it’s only Liberals who don’t like being called Liberals because your base is so insane. I’m proud to be called a conservative, mainly because I don’t feel I have to pass any litmus test to be such: I am not religious, I am not against gay marriage, I don’t fit the mold, and that’s okay. Liberals, on the other hand, are far less tolerant-just try to be a pro-life Democrat-there’s no room for you at the convention. The party of tolerance and “choice” is the one with the least room for deviation. No wonder you don’t want to be called a liberal. But you admit you’re a democrat, so if I refer to you as a democrat are you gonna cry about that too? ;)

    Have a great day at school. And tell your daughter I said “hi!” I bet we’d all have fun at a bbq by the lake. I’ll bring the Dos Equis.

  • bucslim

    So Randall – the end of your democracy. Really? McCain runs on the platform of ending our democracy. Is he going to set up a dictatorship? Appoint himself King? Czar? So he might be ‘voted’ in, then he’ll dismantle the election process?

    The way I see it it’s the other way around. Liberals are always telling people what they can and can’t do. Businesses aren’t allowed to make money, particularly small buisnesses because they are taxed and regulated out of business. The only free speech is their brand of free speech. Rich people are the scum of society. My worth as a human being is viewed from the standpoint of how ‘green’ I am. Fairness is defined as taking money from hardworking people and giving it to people who don’t. And finally, the government is nothing more than an entitlement program.

    That kind of over the top, the sky is falling crap plays right into what I’ve said all along. It’s that sort of smug, moral higher ground bullshit that Democrat Liberals have said from day one in this thread.

    Not voting for Obama – you’re a racist.

    Obama’s accomplishments will be greater than Lincoln and Jefferson.

    Obama is the best presidential candidate ever.

    Republicans favor slavery.

    McCain’s presidency will usher in the end of democracy.

    My personal feelings on this matter are essentially the same as Pete Townsend’s – meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The day I put my hopes and dreams in an elected politician, no matter what race he/she is, instead of myself and my family and friends is the day democracy dies. That’s the true conservative way.

    (cue patriotic music as bucslim rides into the sunset in his gas guzzling 1969 Pink Cadillac with all leather cow interior, smoking Camel non-filters, eating quarter pounders with cheese and tossing the non bio-degradable styrofoam containers right out the window as he runs over baby seals)

  • Callie

    an excerpt from an article from last night

    “The Republican gathering also featured Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, the Democrat-turned-independent who was the 2000 Democratic vice presidential nominee. “I’m here to support John McCain because country matters more than party,” said Lieberman, who gave the night’s featured prime-time address.”

    Even the Democrats don’t believe in Obama. Hillary smeared him for months and then threw herself at him like a cheerleader to the quarterback hoping he’d roofie her and she’d wake up VP.

  • Callie

    a link to the story before anyone starts hounding me for sources

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/politics/bal-te.gop03sep03,0,381979.story

  • Cedestra

    At least you guys are keeping me a good chuckle for my money and keeping it “light-ish”. I expected a lot more poo.

  • Cedestra ~ LOL. A lot more poo. I like that. :)

  • English

    I’m English and think Americans mainly will embrace him because he is black and they want to prove they are not racist, unfortunately, I don’t think he will win on merit but purely because of his skin colour. I for one would not like a black or asian person running britain nor would i like a white person running Kenya or Ethiopia unless the country was legitimately owned by the country from which that white person was from, i.e India in the days when it was a British territory.

  • Randall

    Callie:

    “Even the Democrats don’t believe in Obama.”

    Joe Lieberman is NOT a democrat. He is, to put it charitably, an independent. I’d have other titles for him that are less neutral, but we’ll leave it at that.

    “Hillary smeared him for months and then threw herself at him like a cheerleader to the quarterback hoping he’d roofie her and she’d wake up VP.”

    Nonsense. Politics aren’t played that way. When you’re trying to win a nomination, you attack the front runner or your chief rival. This is to be expected. Then, whoever gets the nomination, you support that person if you’re interested in remaining a loyal member of the party. That’s that. Republicans do the same thing all the time. It’s the way the game is played.

    Let’s not get silly about this.

  • Cedestra

    370. bucslim: ~’cause he an asshole (asshole) odee-oh-dee oh A S S H O L E!~
    :D I had to, sorry. It just…flowed.

  • Callie

    he’s certainly not a conservative.

  • SlickWilly

    Wow. What a bunch of short-sighted blowhards. Conservative? Liberal? Why the hell does any of that matter? Can anyone here look me in the eyes and tell me the country is better off now than it was 8 years ago? Can anybody look anywhere and say that with a straight face?

    The simple fact of the matter is that McCain supports Bush’s policies, foreign, domestic and economic. His voting record indicates that he voted pro-Bush policies 90-95% of the time for the last two terms. It is largely these policies that are responsible for the reprehensible state of this country: inflation skyrocketing, housing market tanked, corporations and conglomerates swimming in flabbergasting record profit margins while the average American scrapes the couch cushion to buy gas to get to work, the gov’t infiltrating our personal lives like never before, an expensive and needless war that to this day is still raging…I could go on and on.

    My question: Why, if you know that the former administration’s policies didn’t work, would you elect a man and a platform that is assured to continue those same policies into the next 4 years? It’s logic. Obama may not necessarily be the ideal man for the job, but he is certainly the lesser of two evils. Don’t let your blind devotion to your party decide whether or not to dump the country in the crapper.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    “So Randall – the end of your democracy. Really? McCain runs on the platform of ending our democracy. Is he going to set up a dictatorship? Appoint himself King? Czar? So he might be ‘voted’ in, then he’ll dismantle the election process?”

    Cute, pinhead, but you know better. Or you ought to know better. During the Bush administration’s tenure we’ve seen the first withdraw of Habeas Corpus; the anti-American and intrusive “Patriot Act;” the gathering of unprecedented powers within the Executive Branch; (as well as a recalcitrant Executive Branch which ignores and steps over congressional oversight and protests, not to mention law) and, at least when it was controlled by Republicans, a congress all too willing to roll over and allow the President to do as he pleased with little or no oversight.

    Not to mention the fact that there’s every indication and a great deal of evidence indicating that the Republican party flat-out stole the last two presidential elections, including the use of tricks, disenfranchisement of voters, and other less publicized means.

    Our democracy is a fine balance of the separation of powers. And it has *not* been served at all well by the Bush administration—though this also began *before* Bush ever took office.

    But it also isn’t merely about the presidency getting more powerful (it has been, since WWII, despite a brief period of drawback following Watergate). It’s also about the nature of our society. The media has become a corporate-controlled paper tiger, and the American people *themselves* have become less inclined towards liberty and individuality and even political freedom itself in the last three decades. If you don’t see this, I advise you to peek out from under that large rock you’re living beneath. Some social issues have “gone left” as it were–homosexuality has a greater acceptance today, and it might be argued that women have greater opportunities (certainly seems that way with Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin now) and certainly when we see a black man who has the nomination of a major party, we can say there’s been some progress on racial issues as well. But at the same time we’ve seen a vast increase in the power of the whacko-and-tyrannical religious right and a huge tendency overall towards restrictiveness and exclusion and loss of privacy in our culture.

    “The way I see it it’s the other way around. Liberals are always telling people what they can and can’t do.”

    This is the way a teenager sees political philosophies. Every time I hear your rhetoric on this issue, I get the distinct impression that you simply never grew up. And that you think we’re still fighting against radical liberals from the sixties.

    “Businesses aren’t allowed to make money, particularly small buisnesses because they are taxed and regulated out of business.”

    Don’t talk to me about the burden of taxation on business; I’m from New York–I know it first hand. But New York, and what you’re railing against, are Old School. You ought, however, to explain how it was that under Bill Clinton (I never liked him myself, but I honestly acknowledge what he did) we managed record growth and job creation, and balanced budgets.

    Only a softheaded tool (or off-their-nut libertarians) believes that ALL taxes and regulation are bad. The question is how much and for what reason.

    “The only free speech is their brand of free speech.”

    hmmm… how so?

    “Rich people are the scum of society.”

    How many have you known?

    “My worth as a human being is viewed from the standpoint of how ‘green’ I am.”

    And praytell, what’s wrong with that? Do you not feel you have some responsibility to the rest of humanity and to the biosphere that allows you to exist?

    “Fairness is defined as taking money from hardworking people and giving it to people who don’t.”

    Sure. Okay.

    “Obama’s accomplishments will be greater than Lincoln and Jefferson.”

    Well please remember, I never said that. I thought it was nutty too.

    “Obama is the best presidential candidate ever.”

    Never said that either, nor do I believe it.

    “Republicans favor slavery.”

    Republicans have stood for and stand for a lot of suspiciously racist things. Don’t like it, too bad. That’s the record.

    “McCain’s presidency will usher in the end of democracy.”

    It would likely be the next step pal.

    “The day I put my hopes and dreams in an elected politician, no matter what race he/she is, instead of myself and my family and friends is the day democracy dies. That’s the true conservative way.”

    What a lovely fantasy you live in. I wish, myself, that that’s what conservatism was, but it isn’t, and what we’re dealing with has got nothing to do with conservatism. What you’re actually saying is that you can ignore what goes on in politics because you think it shouldn’t matter. Laughable. Regardless of your political stance, the fact is that we live in a mega-nation governed by representatives of our supposed interests, but what it is in theory and what it is in practice are two entirely different things.

    Certainly the Republican party has drifted FAR away from the libertarian views you’re touting, and now stands for as much big government as you claim the left stands for.

    You like to make a joke about this shit, and sometimes it’s funny… but the fact is that down deep it isn’t funny at all. It’s sad and tragic and in the end, you’ll get what you deserve if you bury your head in the sand of nonsense that you’ve buried it in.

  • Randall

    Slickwilly:

    Thank you. Naturally I agree with everything you said, 100%.

  • Anon

    Johnny English, (325),

    “I for one would not like a black or asian person running britain nor would i like a white person running Kenya or Ethiopia”

    An Amazonian indian as president of Brazil then? Inuits running Canada? Abos for Oz. Maori for Kiwi. And I believe I’m right in thinking that would make bushmen the rightful political inheritors of the southern sector of Africa. Oh, and might it also entail a little matter of neither McCain or Obama being qualified for the presidential race (pun intended)? Or did whites, zulus and bantus come along afterwards and *legitimately own* all the nations and territories those original inhabitants used to occupy? Have you actually asked THEM? While you’re about it, try asking the legitimate native inhabitants of West Irian too.

    So you’d rather have a piss-poor Anglo-Saxon running Britain than a better-qualified descendant from Carribean immigrants or a better British-born Asian, eh? Well, fucked if I would. A few top British soccer teams took that attitude. White players only, please, we’re British. Count how many there are now on the fingers of no hands and ask yourself why they changed.

    Were we but mole rats (blind), no such question would even arise. Nothing but *best mole-rat for the job* in that case.

  • Cedestra

    Callie, I will have to support Randall on that point. Roll back the clock about a half a year ago and you will see the jibes taken at McCain by Guliani, Romney, et al. The nominees clamor to the top and basically whomever raises the most money wins. Then, the losers turn around and support the winner 100%. It’s happened with every election since, I’d guess the latter half of the 20th century, if not earlier.

  • Cedestra

    re: 325. If Obama wins because of his skin color, it’s not because America wants to look color-blind, it’s because enough pro-black people rallied together to make it happen. Your statement is smelly and full of poo. I expected this from others, but not from you. You disappoint me, sir.

  • All I heard was blah blah stole the last two elections blah blah expensive and needless war. The same old tired liberal, sorry, Democrat bullshit. Guess what? The surge is working in Iraq (why else do you not see it on the news anymore-the news is too good to report) and Bush won fair and square, get over it.

  • Anon

    Randall,

    “You like to make a joke about this shit, and sometimes it’s funny… but the fact is that down deep it isn’t funny at all. It’s sad and tragic and in the end, you’ll get what you deserve if you bury your head in the sand of nonsense that you’ve buried it in.”

    No it isn’t at all funny deep down, and the profoundest tragedy is that if enough bury their heads in the sand we shall ALL OF US get what THEY deserve. That’s the interlocking reality of *globalisation*.

  • Cedestra, I think a little different this year was Hillary was actually praising *McCain* in the primaries in her attempt to discredit Obama. The good news is McCain can use all that crap in awesome commercials!

  • Anon

    Cedestra, (334),

    Disappoints me too, but sadly does not surprise. I do not suppose, and never have, that all my fellow-countrymen are white (double meaning intended). *Sir* is not obligatory when addressing an Englishman, by the way, but may however be applied with a ladle-full of heavy sarcasm (as by the wits of the Regency).

  • Randall ~ Assumption on my part, I guess. Bill O’Reilly’s a registered Independent, too. You are aweful quick to defend dems and bash republicans.

    Which party wants to implement the Fairness Doctrine to silence it’s critics? Which party wants to penalize corporations for so-called “windfall profits?” Which party has positioned itself so that it would benefit from defeat in Iraq? Which party’s leadership credited Iran’s “good will” with our success from the surge instead of our brave troops and Iraqi soldiers? Which party is a slave of the teacher’s unions and won’t even consider use of vouchers to empower parents?

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    By the way, I have NEVER “admitted” I’m a democrat. I am, in fact, a registered Independent.

  • wow. i’m a time-traveler now.

  • Go democrats for sure! If McCain is voted to be our next president then the economy will be completely shot for another 8 years! Ugh, it sickens me to think of that happening.

  • trojan_man

    A Nun O Miss: McCain would be pleased to know that if he wins he will get 8 years instead of 4. Wow, Republicans really are powerful.

  • S.D.Schaffer

    Quick, name one piece of legislation that Sen. Obama has authored or co-written since he has been in the U.S. Senate.

    Cricket, Cricket.

    Oh, that’s right, the answer is none. Quite a record of accomplishment the junior senator from Illinois has compiled during his tenure. Other than being over the age of 35 and an excellent public speaker, his qualifications to be the president of the United States are thin at best.

  • Its an almost guarantee that if McCain is voted to be our president, he will surely be voted in again after 4 years…no thanks to the south.

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    Which party wants to outlaw abortion? Which party wants to bring the teaching of “creation science” in our schools? Which party has stood for the intrusive and un-American “Patriot Act?” Which party has stood idly by while George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have run roughshod over the Constitution and refused to do its job in terms of congressional oversight on the actions of the Executive Branch? Which party continually gives enormous tax breaks to huge corporations and other power brokers while burdening the middle class with higher and higher taxes? Which party has been responsible for the dangerously widening gap between rich and poor? Which party practically sanctioned the sort of corrupt double dealing by companies like Enron? Which party has allowed endless conflicts of interest over the last eight years (Halliburton, etc.) to go unchecked? Which party gave us a president who has ruined our overseas standing and reputation and driven our economy into the ground? Which party supported that president’s incredible strategic blunders? Which party waves the flag in our face as a means of distracting us, calling anyone who disagrees with them “haters of America” and other blather? Which party is responsible for the NEEDLESS deaths of thousands of American soldiers and thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians in a TOTALLY UNNECESSARY AND STUPID war that diverted our attention from the TRUE conflict we should have been fighting, in Afghanistan?

    We could go on and on and on, ad nauseum.

  • trojan_man

    Randall: “Which party has been responsible for the dangerously widening gap between rich and poor?” Answer: Democrats and that damn NAFTA.

    A Nun O Miss: maybe since there are more voters in the North and West, you should blame them for who ends up as President.

  • Randall ~ I was seriously raising legitimate issues about the stances of the Democratic party. It seems you’re just rehashing the same old tired anti-war partisan crap. And I thought you weren’t even a Democrat, why the hostility?

  • bucslim

    Which party has Keith Olberman?

  • bucslim

    Which party has Babs Streisand?

  • bucslim

    My head’s buried in the sand? I thought it was stuck up my right wing ass!

  • Randall

    S.D. Schaffer:

    WRONG!!

    Bills co-written or written by Obama in the US Senate:

    Global Poverty Act (S.2433)
    Requires the President to develop and implement a comprehensive policy to cut extreme global poverty in half by 2015 through aid, trade, debt relief, and coordination with the international community, businesses and NGOs.

    Legislative Transparency and Accountability Act (S. 230)
    Strict bans on receiving gifts and meals from lobbyists; new rules to slow the revolving door between public and private sector service; and an end to the subsidized use of corporate jets.

    Lugar-Obama Nonproliferation Legislation
    Expands U.S. cooperation to destroy conventional weapons. It also expands the State Department’s ability to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction.

    Obama also INTRODUCED some 113 bills while in the senate.

    Get off it clown.

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    “I was seriously raising legitimate issues about the stances of the Democratic party…”

    *I* was SERIOUSLY raising legitimate issues about the SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP and out of touch Republican party which has lost ALL SENSE of perspective and totally lost its values! Why do you think I LEFT it? I was a member of the Republican party from the year I could VOTE, rushfan.

    YOU are accusing ME of “partisan crap?” PLEASE.

    and “anti-war?” Are you saying you were IN FAVOR of the war in Iraq? Pray tell us, young lady… WHY? What justification do you have for it? What did it accomplish? What USE was it? What did all those young men lay down their lives for?

    Don’t get sanctimonious with ME about this war crap, rushfan. As I’ve said here before, I come from a military family. And THEY are the first goddamn ones to know that you don’t blindly support wars just because your country and your president is pushing them.

    There was no earthly reason for that war in Iraq. It was stupid and wasteful from the get-go, the product of neo-conservative elitists like Wolfowitz who thought we could “bring democracy” to all of the Middle East if only we tried. And thousands of lives later and what do we have to show for it? NOTHING. Al Qaeda still out there, Bin Laden free, BILLIONS of dollars down the drain, our economy in a shambles, and the world hating us.

    Pointless, useless, and wasteful! AFGHANISTAN and Al QAEDA should have been the focus. I said this ages ago here—I wanted to see Bin Laden’s head on a pike outside the capitol building! Okay, not really, but figuratively, it’s what should have come to pass. We should have never HEARD of the Taliban again! But they’ve been continually raiding and staging resurgences in Afghanistan ever since Bush blundered into Iraq and declared “mission accomplished.” But today the Taliban continues to commit atrocities–IN MANY INSTANCES AGAINST WOMEN who dare to ignore their insane religious invectives and “laws”–and all because WE haven’t put our focus where it SHOULD have been.

    It was nice that you created that list of violence against women a while back—but does it not bother you in the least that at least ONE group is allowed to CONTINUE its violence against women out there in the world because WE who could have CRUSHED them did NOT, because we had to go and invade a country that had NOTHING to do with the attack on our shores?

    Bothers me. I’d love to know why it doesn’t bother YOU.

  • Randall ~ Get off your fucking high horse. You’re in the majority, okay? I get it. I just don’t happen to believe that George Bush is evil. Sorry. We are in a global war on terrorism and Iraq is one front in that war. After 9/11 it was necessary to take any and all threats seriously. Actually, it was necessary before 9/11 but Clinton ignored all terrorist attacks from the embasy bombings to the USS Cole. The international community (not just the US) had intelligence that said Saddam had or was close to developing dangerous weapons. The UN passes how many resolutions? He used chemical weapons on his own people. We happen to be winning the war in Iraq. The soldiers you feel sorry for, I feel proud of. They know what their duty is and why they’re there. And they’re doing a fucking good job, too. Did you watch all of those brave Iraqi citizens risk their lives to vote? Well, I did. It’s funny, no, actually it’s a trajedy, that any good news or news of progress made in Iraq seems to be mysteriously not reported on the news. Well I for one don’t need the mainstream media to form my opinions for me and I sure as hell don’t need you to talk to me as if you know it all because you sure as hell don’t.

  • trojan_man

    And now for a moment of comedic relief during the Rushfan V. Randall political extravaganza…

    Hillary Clinton, when asked by Tim Russert why she voted for the war in Iraq, said she “thought it was a vote to put inspectors back in”. The name of the resolution was “A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.” Ha, ha, ha…that might have fooled the voters in Arkansas but you are on a national stage now, missy. Anyway, Barak or John…both are better than Hillarious Clinton.

  • trojan-maaaaaan ~ :)

  • and another thing…Nobody is “for” war. Sometimes it is necessary to win the war to win the peace. The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all. They have the ability, they just use *amazing* restraint and don’t obliterate their enemy. And they’re still hated! So there goes y’alls theories about America being hated all over the world because of Bush. We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid. The war on terrorism is some tricky shit. We’re not fighting a country, we’re fighting an ideology. It sucks, but I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves or some other twit who thinks global warming is the biggest issue we face. It’s not. By a long shot. I for one don’t want to live under Sharia Law. How about you?

  • S.D.Schaffer

    # 352 Randall- neither S.2433 nor S.230 have been passed into law, according to Govtrak. The Lugar-Obama Non Proliferation legislation was signed by President Bush. So score one for you. I stand corrected.

    I await your retraction.

  • trojan_man

    Rushfan: I’m here all week…tip your bartenders and wait staff…drinks are free if you’re gambling.

  • Sally

    Ohhh my god! I cant believe it .. Are theseguys racist or sumfin? He could be one of the best president.. you cannot judge people by their race you judge presidets by judging them on their job!

  • Sally

    Im always right!

  • Wow. Well stated Sally. Expert use of the oft-ignored word “sumfin.”

  • trojan_man

    rushfan: akin to the word “sumbitch”

  • bucslim

    Randall – Dude, I’m tired of explaining it to you. You’ve painted me with the wrong brush, and I resent that. I”m actively involved in my community and family and I care deeply about what goes on in Washington. It’s not a fantasy. Trust is another thing. I’m not in the least bit libertarian I’ve never brought up the subject of Ron Paul in any argument -and I’ve been a conservative Republican since I could vote because for the most part, they stand for the issues and policies that make the most sense to me. Your not going to change my mind just because the latest liberal wunderkind is close to being elected.

    I’ll never understand your east coast elitism, the past couple of post seem as if you’re looking down your nose at my views. I’ve read all of your posts directed at myself very carefully. I make jokes to point out the Chicken Little nonsense you’re spouting. Lighten up dude, the sun’ll come up tomorrow, no matter what douchebag is in office. I just think you’re putting your trust in someone who’s promising the fricken moon, every politician does that.

    I’m so done with this. I’m voting for that non-conservative McCain and positively out of the park conservative Palin.

    rushfan – you’re amazing. Nice to have someone in here to help me carry the torch.

  • Kase

    -bucslim

    twas a joke fine sir. Don’t get all bent out of shape just because someone made a joke on the ‘your view’ involving a black person.

    gotta get back to work, later days!

    also..
    U.S. Citizen votes don’t have alot of power in the end. The electoral college does. And my view is that greedy old white men will elect greedy old white men. therefore, until we get a good amount of greedy old africans, or greedy old women, we aren’t ready to have a different colored president.(tis a joke people, calm down)

  • SlickWilly

    Rushfan:

    You keep expounding on this idea that we are winning the war in Iraq. I ask you: who cares?! Why does it matter that we are winning or losing if the war was largely unjustified and without merit in the first place? Why does it matter that we are winning (a very vague term, by the way) if it cost the American taxpayers BILLIONS that could have been spent any number of other ways domestically are in the REAL war: Afghanistan? Not to mention that THOUSANDS of both American and Allied soldiers and THOUSANDS of Iraqi citizens have died because of it? Yes, Iraq now has some sort of quasi-democratic government in place, and (some) of the people are happy with us. But how long will this last? And at what cost? The sad thing is, when this tenuous democracy ultimately crumbles back to the primitive theocracies that preceeded it, the republicans will be pointing their fingers at the forthcoming administration rather than cast the shame on the actions of the leader that actualized it.

    “So there goes y’alls theories about America being hated all over the world because of Bush. We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid…It sucks, but I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves…”

    So you can honestly tell me that G.W.’s cowboy politics haven’t harmed our image in PREVIOUSLY FRIENDLY nations? That the utter arrogance of the U.S. in proceeding with a war condemned by the other nations that equally inhabit this planet was not conceited and supercilious? You know, many, many people in other countries view the USA as all of these things. Do you mean to tell them that their perceptions are all equally mistaken? That the United States hasn’t, by the actions of its leaders, shown itself to believe that it is above what the rest of the world – that is, the GLOBAL COMMUNITY – thinks of it? You say that we shouldn’t care what the rest of the world thinks of us, but this is only indicative of that sterotypical American close-mindedness that we – thanks to our adminstration – have now been branded with. The fact of the matter is, we may be one of if not the most powerful nations in the world, but we still answer to the UN and we are still obligated to participate in the international community. That means actually caring about how we are perceived in other parts of the world not irrationally opposed based on our stance with Israel. If you honestly see a problem with this, then you are nothing but the archetypal example of the boorish, ignorant American stereotype.

    Rushfan, I find your level of hypocracy abhorrent. You come here railing how democrats do nothing but rehash standard partisan critcisms while being guilty of the same crime, choosing to hide it behind the rehashed partisan excuses of your own ineffectual party. You cast derision on us because you feel your party still stands for the idealistic notions of the past, while in practice it fails to live up to any of them. You cast out the GOP-sanctioned, pro-war propaganda and emphasize its importance while failing to even entertain the notion that you or your party might be wrong. You have a very close-minded world view and frankly, it’s a bit offensive to be accused of such when the accuser is markedly ignorant of certain introspective truths.

    I don’t care what you may have to say about why the democratic party sucks. I’ll be the first to admit its flaws and shortcomings. But that’s what separates me and you. I can understand how my party is wrong. You seem unable to do that.

  • bucslim

    Steady rushfan, steady.

  • 365. Kase, the electoral college *is* a joke, but not a funny one. It’s a terribly, terribly sad joke.
    I’m angry that I only get to vote for someone who “pledges” to vote for someone, but isn’t accountable for that pledge. Once elected, that member of the electoral college can vote for whomever they please.
    Every time someone rambles on about our Democracy, I want to shake them by the shoulders and shout at them “Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! Democratic Republic! You learned this in 5th grade!”
    Then I realize it won’t make one iota of difference. Nothing changes. Everything we do remains the same, no matter what we call it. Everything that happens remains the same, no matter what we call it. The electoral college is a disaster, no matter if we remember to call it what it is or not.

  • rushfan

    Slick ~ I like you, man. But you have no idea what you’re talking about. Granted, you are obviously educated. But I am not a Republican hack, my comment was not in support of Republicans, it was in response to Randall. I’m honestly shocked by your strong reaction. We disagree. Isn’t that what makes America great? That we can disagree? I support the war. You don’t. But you made some leaps in logic to condemn me so forcefully. I’m just some mom in Texas who doesn’t want some pussy in the White House who’s gonna back down in the face of terrorists, which is honestly what I feel we’ll get with Obama. My best friend is a yoga instructor vegan anarchist… we don’t all have to have the same views, but we can still be friends and respect each other’s views, right?

  • SlickWilly

    rushfan:

    “Slick ~ I like you, man. But you have no idea what you’re talking about.”

    I should say the same about you.

    “But I am not a Republican hack, my comment was not in support of Republicans.”

    My apologies. Though if I were to draw up a list of characteristics of a republican hack, you’d have met several of them in this exchange. You can see how I could have made that mistake. Don’t call the kettle black, Ms. Pot. That’s all I’ll say.

    “But you made some leaps in logic to condemn me so forcefully.”

    Pray tell. It certainly seems to me that, by your comments and general attitude here, that you have been tacitly guilty of most of the things I mentioned, and explicitly guilty of the rest. The way you’ve argued against Randall is typical of conservative propaganda, and I don’t like feeling like I’m being mocked through my political affiliations by someone who sometimes doesn’t seem to see the nose on the front of her face.

    “I’m just some mom in Texas who doesn’t want some pussy in the White House who’s gonna back down in the face of terrorists, which is honestly what I feel we’ll get with Obama.”

    You think he is a “pussy” that is going to “back down in the face of terrorists.” What are your reasons for this? Of course you understand that anything other than his stated agendas or voting record will be irrational reasoning. I believe you’re smarter than that, anyway, so I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

  • fishing4monkeys

    Well apparently they ARE ready or else he would not be in the position he’s in…although that could just amount to people just not wanting a female president haha maybe the next ‘your view’?
    And for the record I don’t base my opinion on gender or race.

  • Cole

    Is the US ready for a black president, most likely not. Is it ready for another Bush, absolutely not.

  • Randall

    S.D.Schaffer:

    I’ll retract nothing, pinhead. You made no proviso, in your original bullshit statement, about “bills passed in to law.” You asked for ONE piece of legislation that Obama had written or co-written in the senate. That is ALL you asked for.

    You were flat-dead wrong, pure and simple, and nothing more than yet another mouth for right-wing propaganda bullshit.

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    “The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all.”

    Oh? Is that so, madam? And how would you suggest the Israelis ought to be allowed to go about this “defeat (of the Palestinians) once and for all?” Hmm? Kill every last one of them? If that’s what it took?

    What does that statement of yours MEAN?

    See, you talk here and in your statements regarding Iraq like the typical person who knows nothing of war and thinks it’s okay to blithely say this or that military action should be carried out, or is viable, or is acceptable.

    I like you and bucslim—you’re good people. But your politics is the kind of know-nothing populism that always gets our society and our country overseas into deep shit. Sometimes it’s mitigated by other factors–Reagan managed to pull us out of miasma before the damage he was doing really set in. But George W. Bush and his lapdog congress showed us how bad it can get when this kind of ignorant worldview gets its own way for too long. If you like the way the last 8 years have gone–even halfway–then you’re so out of touch that I don’t know what more to say to you.

    My SENSE is that you two are in the minority… at least you are for the people *I* talk to, and no, they’re not all academic intellectuals, not by a LONG shot. I live in blue-collarsville, and to a man and woman, every single one of them hate Bush and are angry as hell at the Republicans and think Sarah Palin is a freakin’ retard, along with being a retarded choice for VP.

    I trust this is the prevalent view nationwide. We’ll see.

  • Cedestra

    On these two tickets, I’m paying very strong attention to the running mates. We have a very old (the oldest running for president) man who could easily die in office and a black man who could easily be assassinated (although if anyone would have been assassinated by now, it would have been Bush). So, what’s left is an inexperienced, extremely right-winged woman and an experienced, plageristic man. I think we should be looking long and hard at the running mates.
    So long as the SS does their job, the more stable ticket seems to be the Democrats.

  • Anon

    Cedestra, (375),

    A couple of points.

    Excellent point above. Probably crucial.

    Secondly, I’m so sorry I responded in any way at all to that momentary madness that went on under your name. As one who has also had aliases nicked, I should have realised or kept quiet. It didn’t seem to add up in any way to what I remembered as Cedestra postings. Yet I felt you might have been responding outrageously to some outrageous comments or situation I had missed, and wanted to make clear at least one reader was taking it simply as off the wall. I was also a bit distracted there and then. By the time the awful truth dawned I had acted indelibly, if indefinitely. At least, happily the ordure was removed, and my comments are mild and meaningless. But deep apologies all the same.

    I find it disturbing that there can be no equivalent to a *spam filter* to prevent the identical form of name and ideally the same run of letters from hitting the screen. Our identities are very important here, both to those who know us and respond to us, and also as flags for our overall views, personalities and standards of behaviour.

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    “We are in a global war on terrorism and Iraq is one front in that war.”

    No, it isn’t, and it never was. It’s convenient to ignore the truth and the facts and evidence when they don’t agree with you, rush, but it isn’t *honest.* Saddam’s Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and there’s no evidence that he even exported terrorism of *any* kind directed at the US. And there was never any evidence of any kind that he was trying to produce a nuclear weapon. It’s long been established that all of these excuses were invented by the Bush administration–the problem is that Congress has never had the guts to call him on it and impeach the son of a bitch. But I take it you never heard of the Downing Street memo, or any of the other documents and testimonies which establish that the Bush administration *knew all along* that they were lying to the American public and to the rest of the world, distorting and fabricating whatever they felt they needed so they could carry out whatever nutty strategic “plan” they had in mind which demanded that they invade Iraq and topple Saddam. I applauded the fact that a bastard dictator was overthrown, but the simple fact is that we had no justification for it, and it was a monumental strategic error.

    You can harp all you want on this, promoting the propaganda that we’re now “winning the war in Iraq” and that “the surge is working” as though these contentions somehow make the whole thing okay–utterly ignoring how A) it was WRONG in the first place B) a HUGE waste of lives, time, resources and our economy and C) it accomplished NOTHING of a practical value beyond ending the rule of a lousy tyrant. Nice, that last, but hardly worth what we put into it. Every SINGLE other aspect of it has been a complete and utter FAILURE.

    “After 9/11 it was necessary to take any and all threats seriously.”

    I love this kind of bullshit rhetoric. As if no one WOULD take threats seriously after 9/11. Sure.

    “Actually, it was necessary before 9/11 but Clinton ignored all terrorist attacks from the embasy bombings to the USS Cole.”

    I’m not here to defend the poor foreign policy maneuvers of the Clinton administration. I, in fact, agree that he fucked up. But I find it telling that you find it so easy to criticize *Clinton* for his errors in this regard–but you won’t raise a voice to criticize BUSH for *his* far greater errors. Clinton could at least say that no one could have conceived of a 9/11 plot before it actually happened (I certainly couldn’t imagine it–to this day it still seems like some crap they’d invent in a Hollywood movie)… but what excuse can Bush use? Where is Bin Laden? Why is the TALIBAN still operating almost *freely* in Afghanistan? And more besides.

    “The international community (not just the US) had intelligence that said Saddam had or was close to developing dangerous weapons.”

    Wrong, and a blatant falsehood. The fact is that no such intelligence ever existed–the best they had were unproved suppositions and faint indications here and there, most of them completely untrustworthy.

    Again, you are spouting right-wing propaganda which hasn’t even a smidgeon of truth in it.

    “The UN passes how many resolutions? He used chemical weapons on his own people.”

    What does THAT have to do with 9/11 and the war on terror? Again, it was a meaningless and pointless DIVERSION from where our attentions SHOULD have been.

    “We happen to be winning the war in Iraq.”

    Again, irrelevant.

    “The soldiers you feel sorry for, I feel proud of.”

    AS IF I’M NOT PROUD OF THEM. I TOLD YOU, rushfan, don’t pull that flag-waving “you hate America and hate our soldiers while I’m a patriotic TRUE Amurrican” with ME, young lady. What the hell did YOUR family EVER do to serve this country? Do they have the same record as mine? I highly doubt it. Yet you feel free to impugn MY patriotism? Get off it. Moreover, those soldiers you’re so “proud” of–in fact, informal polling has indicated that a *majority* of them feel their time in Iraq has been *wasted* and that they have NOT been fighting the *real* enemy there.

    REAL soldiers, rushfan, don’t just blindly cheerlead for whatever conflict they’re sent into. They KNOW when they’re being bullshitted, and know when their time and effort is being wasted. Why do you think so many former generals and admirals have come out with criticisms of this war, and criticisms of the Bush administration’s handling of it? Why do you think so many generals have left service? Why do you think so many of them protested Rumsfeld’s reckless decisions and attitudes in regards to how the war should be prosecuted?

    “Did you watch all of those brave Iraqi citizens risk their lives to vote? Well, I did.”

    Good for you—another irrelevant pull at the heartstrings and self-congratulation. Have you checked in how many of those noble Iraqi citizens have taken up arms against us? And how many of them have *died* needlessly in the in-fighting? And how many of them are now angry as hell at us?

    “Well I for one don’t need the mainstream media to form my opinions for me and I sure as hell don’t need you to talk to me as if you know it all because you sure as hell don’t.”

    What you sure as hell DO need, rushfan, is some education and to listen to SOMEONE other than Rush goddamn fucking Limbaugh. Ignoring the “mainstream media” doesn’t make you smart, rush. Not if you’re not filling the gap with something other than one sided propaganda.

    “and another thing…Nobody is “for” war. Sometimes it is necessary to win the war to win the peace.”

    Exactly the typical kind of talk one hears from armchair generals who don’t go themselves, but feel comfortable to rah rah rah for whatever action they feel “needs” to be taken.

    “The reason the Isrealis are perpetually at war is because the international community does not allow them to defeat the Palestinians once and for all.”

    See my earlier point about this. That statement is reprehensible.

    “They have the ability, they just use *amazing* restraint and don’t obliterate their enemy.”

    But apparently you think they should do just that? Obliterate them?

    “We are hated by haters and appreciated by the countless people all over the world we help with untold amounts of humanitarian aid.”

    More nonsense self-congratulation. No, rushfan, we are now distrusted and hated by people all over the world because our foreign policy the last eight years has been bullying, self-serving, reckless, and one-sided. We’re no longer the leader we once were, we’re a bullying bull in a china shop that looks like it’s trying to lay the foundations of empire. Whether true or not, that’s how it appears to people the world over. Of course, it’s convenient for to deny that and pretend it ain’t so, sitting where you sit… but that doesn’t make you right.

    “I’d rather have George W Bush at the helm right now than a guy who wants us to pass some “global test” before we make any moves”

    The mark of a true leader, rush, is not just blundering in and doing what you think should be done, when everyone else advises you its wrong. That’s the mark of a bully and a self-righteous idiot, which Bush has been proven to be. There’s nothing wrong with listening to one’s trusted and true allies and friends and acting within some accord on their feelings. Yes, sometimes you gotta take a lead and be out on your own—but handled properly it never becomes what it HAS become. Bush’s problem is that he was incapable of handling this situation thusly–instead, he handled it like no one else in the world mattered. That kind of crap may play in the trailer parks but it isn’t the smart way to run a superpower.

  • Maxwell

    Randall, tl;dr.

  • Callie

    “Moreover, those soldiers you’re so “proud” of–in fact, informal polling has indicated that a *majority* of them feel their time in Iraq has been *wasted* and that they have NOT been fighting the *real* enemy there”

    Reaaaaalllly? I am young (you know this) and graduated from college just last year. I have SEVERAL (as in more than I can count on one hand) friends who are in the military and have gone/are going to serve tours. These are well educated men, three of whom have master’s degrees at or before age 24 and are from both military and non- military families. Not one of them signed up for the help with college tuition, and not one of them is of the “Heh. Guns. Let’s get shooting” mentality.

    And they ALL are pround to serve, and fight for their country. Not one of them has complained to me about his time being wasted. Are you in Iraq Randall? No, I don’t believe so. You can informal poll and much as you want, as can I, but you and I will NEVER have a soldier mindset- I don’t care if your family goes back more generations than Lt. Dan’s did, you have no right to come on here spouting “soldiers hate the war!” as a defense against it. My grandfather was shot down over Germany and spent 3 years as a POW during WWII, and even he keeps quiet about this situation because he simply thinks it’s not his war. If you want to honestly complain about a solider wasting his time, that, pick up a gun, get on the front line, and become one..see how well your pompous blowharding does there.

    Furthermore, you can’t tell me that 8 years ago after 9/11 whichever party was in the White House coule have stood by and not done anything. Do you honestly think if we had a Democrap in office back then we wouldn’t be at war with someone today?

  • Randall

    Callie:

    “And they ALL are pround to serve, and fight for their country.”

    This is NOT the same thing as feeling that the war is correct and has been a good use of their time and effort. Again, I repeat–there has been informal polling of soldiers who have spent a great deal of time in Iraq, and amongst soldiers who have returned… and OF the soldiers talked to, a majority of them have expressed dissatisfaction with the way the war has been handled and with the very idea of it.

    No, soldiers do NOT normally talk about this kind of thing. But they are NOT stupid and they do not just blindly support situations which they find untenable.

    But don’t tell me I don’t have a “right” to simply report what soldiers themselves have been saying. YOU need to justify YOUR stance when, again, as I said earlier, there is EVERY evidence that the military from the TOP DOWN has not supported this war or the way it has been run *from the beginning.* Again, if you don’t agree with that, then you explain the criticism from former generals and admirals that has been *rife,* and why so many of them have spoken out.

    “If you want to honestly complain about a solider wasting his time, that, pick up a gun, get on the front line, and become one..see how well your pompous blowharding does there.”

    This is EXACTLY the opposite of traditional logic in regards to this kind of question. RATHER, Callie, it should be on YOU as a supporter of the war (it seems you are from what you’re saying) to be willing to pick up a gun and go there YOURSELF. I do NOT support this war, and only report the FACTS about it along with my opinions BASED on those facts. Why should it then logically follow that *I* should HAVE to “join up” in order to express my opinion? That’s about the most dunderheaded thing I’ve heard all day.

    I can’t speak for your silent grandfather. My father and five of my uncles fought in combat in WWII, my father a bomber pilot, two of my uncles in the navy, and three of my uncles in the army. ALL in combat. They did their duty and were proud of it, but they also–each and every one of them–came out of it hating war and knowing what it is, and knowing that it has to be prosecuted responsibly and intelligently. THIS war in Iraq has been anything but. You can bet your ass if any of them were still alive they’d be opposed to it—though they would NOT have been opposed to the war in Afghanistan that SHOULD have been our focus the last eight years, but hasn’t been.

    “Do you honestly think if we had a Democrap in office back then we wouldn’t be at war with someone today?”

    Cute, but stupid. The point is NOT that we shouldn’t have been in ANY war the last eight years, but that we should have been in the RIGHT one. But the fact is that the RIGHT war (Afghantistan)has been neglected and even ignored by this administration so that it could INSTEAD waste time, lives, effort and resources on a chimera in Iraq.

  • Callie

    Oh so if we were in Afghanistan, you would suddenly become pro-war? You would join up on the side of Buc, Rush, and myself? Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?

    And you’re damn right if I’m ever called upon I’d go serve. Did I sign up? No, because I’m quite little and would probably just get in the way on the front lines, but if there were ever a draft, and women were included, and I was drafted, hell yes I’d go. You tout your military background as proof of patriotism, yet seem to have a deep hatred of this country and most of the people in it except for your daughters, your neighbor Mike, and your hot co-ed’s.

    Let’s say your boy gets elected. Let’s say he dies. ( I know it’s a long shot, but it’s entirely possible. Obama could drop just as easy as McCain) Biden is now President of the US. Psssst….Biden voted FOR THE WAR. Now what?

  • justjim

    Is America ready for that drastic a change? Yes it sure is after the bullshit of GWB and his croneys. But are they ready for a man like Obama? I don’t think that his many supporters may know the real truth of this guy. He’s just too far left wing for most of the American public but that said… Do we really want a repeat of the GWB years that the Republican candidate is sure to give us?
    I don’t have any firm answers to any of this… but I know that I can’t vote for a Democrat who may have underlying motives to how his government will rule.

  • bucslim

    Well I simply cannot agree with the stance you are taking on this Randall. I completely agree with callie on this. There is plenty of good news coming out of Iraq, and a lot of that is coming from soldiers who’ve fought there.

    It’s just too simple to toss out the mindset that this is all George Bush’s fault, we shouldn’t be there, let’s get out tomorrow. Yes, we were all deceived. Yes, we might have been hasty. But as I’ve stated numerous times elsewhere, Congress, most democrats included, approved of this action, and they’ve been running from this fact ever since.

    Despite all of Bush’s blunders and miscalculations, the violence in Iraq is decreasing, oil profits are going to the republic instead of a sadistic thug and his cronies, terrorist organizations have to find other places to train and plan, and religious sects and tribes are debating upcoming elections. This cannot be described as anything other than a success and a vast improvement over the regime that was there before. But you’ll never hear about this from any democrat because their main focus on Iraq is for our failure. Most will give you some sort of half hearted blather about how they support the troops, but do not support their mission. They will never see the hypocritical nature of their sentiments because a soldier’s duty is to kill the enemy and destroy their ability to make war, not to sit on their ass and bitch about their dissatisfaction with their commanders or the plan of action.

    The rest of my feelings on Iraq can be summed up nicely in an article by Christopher Hitchens in Slate. And we all know what an empty headed deluded right-wing sympathizer Mr. Hichens is.

    http://www.slate.com/id/2197007/

  • Anon

    Randall and rushfan,

    I’ve skimmed a bit, and might have missed the point somewhere, but I should like to point out the quite commonly expressed viewpoint based on observation that the war in Iraq may actually have consolidated fundamentalism and given it greater focus, to the greater risk of our peaceful and oblivious citizens in their home towns (including my own family).

    Soldiers fighting and winning wars. Proud of the cause? British tommies fought and suffered beyond comprehension (alongside comrades of other nations) during WW1. They won. They were disgusted by the futility and pointlessness of that barbarous industrial slaughter. The feeling ran so deep and long that an Oxford Union debate as late as 1933 voted heavily in favour of the motion ‘This House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country’. For them, patriotism had indeed, and literally, become the last refuge of scoudrels. Businessmen and profiteers. A familiar ring? Cowards? Six years later Oxford joined up as a man to fight a cause that everyone was willing to die for and was proud to have won. Against the vicious, obscene Nazi racist war machine. *This House* did fight alongside King and Country AGAINST tyranny.

    I had an old uncle who joined up in 1915 at not quite 16 (he lied about his age). He survived WW1. He won the highest medal any non-officer can other then the VC. He actually fought to remain alive and defend those comrades he loved and cared for. He was wounded and partially lost control of his bladder. After the war, when returning late at night from work, he was arrested for pissing in the middle of a forest miles from habitation. The court ignored the plea of his war wound and found him guilty of an indecent act. A young woman who had been caught short at the same time two miles away was next up. The newspapers printed their names together as having committed an indecent act. That was for his wife and family and neighbours to read. I’m sure that story could be matched by many returned veterans of wars, particularly embarrassing, failed wars everyone wants to forget quickly. As a young man I was on active armed National Service in a terrorist situation on behalf of my country. A grateful (socialist) goivernment rewards me by freezing my pension at its original minimal base level because I do not live in England and to uprate it *would cost the taxpayer too much*. (Note, I represent a considerable net saving for the British welfare services.) Talk to me about heroes and patriotism and dying proudly for one’s country.

    Down here (South America) at least, America has been losing the war for hearts and minds steadily over a good period now. Chile would not support the war in Iraq. Anti-Americanism (i.e. *official* America) is perhaps as strong as it has been since the days when brutal dictators were propped up to stave off communism.

  • Mom424

    Bucslim: And while you’re “winning” the war in Iraq, the war that you were manipulated and out right deceived into joining, my Soldiers are dying in Afghanistan. Where you should have been in the first place. The UN has stated that the terrorists in Afghanistan are both better equipped and better organized than the resistance in Iraq. The Taliban, the ones that George W. Bush lied to you about, the ones that were not in Iraq until after the American invasion. Yup, great job winning the war. Too bad you didn’t use your military might to eradicate the real threat, not the one that involves big business and oil.

  • Anon

    Re my 384.

    Hope all those *points* in my first sentence add point to the comment. I’d hate it to be pointless.

  • Randall

    callie:

    “Oh so if we were in Afghanistan, you would suddenly become pro-war?”

    Are you not listening, callie? I have said TIME and TIME again that the real war WAS in Afghanistan. Nobody should be “pro-war,” per se, but yes, I was ALWAYS in favor of prosecuting THAT war, against the Taliban and Al Qaeda–THE PEOPLE THAT ATTACKED US.

    I mean, what is this bullshit? Where have I not SAID this?

    “You would join up on the side of Buc, Rush, and myself?”

    Hey doofus! I’ve got news for you. I’ve no doubt we’re also on the same side when it comes to many things. Why the hell would this be different? What are you trying to say, and pin me with?

    “Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?”

    Uh, clearly, moron, you think this is the case. Equally clearly, you’re dead wrong. About a lot of things, as it happens.

    “And you’re damn right if I’m ever called upon I’d go serve.”

    Convenient to say, not easy to do.

    “Did I sign up? No, because I’m quite little and would probably just get in the way on the front lines,”

    Uh huh.

    Look, the point is this shouldn’t be about impugning people for going or not going. That’s not a valid basis for argument. It is IRRELEVANT. About the only thing you can say reasonably is that if someone is super-gung-ho for war, then they themselves should be prepared to go. That’s an old saw, we’ve heard it a million times. There’s truth in it.

    But beyond that, drop this shit. It isn’t what this argument is about.

    “You tout your military background as proof of patriotism,”

    NO. WRONG. I “tout” my FAMILY’S military background simply in DEFENSE of people who IMPUGN my patriotism, etc. Big difference. And the reason this is done is because 99.9% of the time, the people shooting their mouth off at me about this are people who NEVER served in combat themselves and have had NO immediate relatives who served in combat. It happens every time. It’s a common pattern. People with no knowledge of war, either personal or inherited, are EVER the first to be the cheerleaders for it, and the first to impugn the patriotism of OTHERS when they oppose war or criticize it.

    “yet seem to have a deep hatred of this country”

    Oh I do? And from what statements of mine did you draw this brilliant conclusion? Where’s your proof of this, your evidence?

    AGAIN… common and shallow tactic of the brain-dead self-righteous right wing… accusing others who disagree with their fucked up worldview of “hating” their own country.

    So cliched it ought to embarrass you to use it, Callie.

    “and most of the people in it”

    Well there you’re getting closer to the truth. You’re right, I don’t like a LOT of my “fellow Americans.”

    “except for your daughters, your neighbor Mike, and your hot co-ed’s.”

    I got no problem with this. Though my base of friends and people I admire IS considerably broader than just my neighbor Mike.

    “Let’s say your boy gets elected. Let’s say he dies. ( I know it’s a long shot, but it’s entirely possible. Obama could drop just as easy as McCain) Biden is now President of the US. Psssst….Biden voted FOR THE WAR. Now what?”

    Piss poor debating tactic, callie. This isn’t some litmus test about who opposed the war when. I wouldn’t care if OBAMA had supported the war originally. We have only two choices in an election, and no matter what, Obama is the superior choice BY FAR over McCain, who hasn’t YET learned that the war was wrong and a huge mistake.

    AND, of course, there’s much more to it than the war. McCain stands for a dozen other things, at least, that amount to four more years of the same godawful shit we’ve suffered under the last EIGHT years with Bush.

  • Anon

    Including probably, I fear, basic indifference to global climate issues except for mealy-mouthed lip-service, unless corporate profits will benefit succulently.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    “Well I simply cannot agree with the stance you are taking on this Randall. I completely agree with callie on this.”

    I’m not surprised. I’m sorry man, but with you and I being about the same age, and discussing matters with you again and again, I’ve long since drawn the conclusion that you stopped *thinking* about your politics long ago. You clicked yourself into a political slot and you’re staying there, with no hope of being dislodged, and logic, facts, evidence, and changes in the world be damned. That’s where you’ll stay.

    That’s wrong. Dead wrong. It’s called polarization and close-mindedness. It’s what we, when we were young, used to rail at the hippies and old school ultra-lefties about. That they were polarized and glued to out-of-date and illogical stances that ignored that the world had changed and that some of their experiments weren’t working. *They* ignored the evidence before their very eyes. *They* thought that Marxism was the wave of the future and that our values were to be laughed at. We were their grandkids, children, and younger brothers and sisters and we opposed them because we knew they’d been proven wrong and that the world had progressed beyond them.

    But here you’re doing the same thing THEY did. You’re clinging to a worldview that’s rigid and you won’t change it—damned if I know why, because you seem smart enough. But I can *guess* why.

    “There is plenty of good news coming out of Iraq,”

    Where is the RELEVANCY of this? I don’t care if the war had gone GREAT from the very beginning and the Iraqis had freakin’ PARADES for us every day! It’s IRRELEVANT. The war was WRONG and a mistake and a DIVERSION from where our focus SHOULD have been.

    WINNING a war doesn’t make it “right,” bucslim. It just ends it. And I remind you, the “plenty of good news” you’re touting isn’t what you’re playing it up to me. You’re making it sound like all is now hunky dory over there. In fact it’s not, and all there’s been is a reduction in the HUGE amounts of violence.

    “It’s just too simple to toss out the mindset that this is all George Bush’s fault,”

    Why? He is the president. IN PARTICULAR in regards to matters of foreign policy, the responsibility ends with him. That’s tradition and simple fact. It was, in the end, HIS decision to support the neo-con idiocy about Iraq, and to go to war there when the war in Afghanistan hadn’t even been won yet.

    “Congress, most democrats included, approved of this action, and they’ve been running from this fact ever since.”

    What’s your POINT about this? No shit, Congress voted for it. And? So? That makes it right NOW? Did that EVER make it right? Did it ever make it the SMART thing to do?

    NO, to all of these questions. Your point is irrelevant. I don’t even know what it is, to be frank.

    “Despite all of Bush’s blunders and miscalculations, the violence in Iraq is decreasing,”

    and again, this is IRRELEVANT.

    “oil profits are going to the republic instead of a sadistic thug and his cronies, terrorist organizations have to find other places to train and plan,”

    Wrong on both counts. A) it STILL looks, to the rest of the world, like we went to war for self-aggrandizement and for control of oil. True or not, looks *matter* in the world. And this is still how it looks–like imperial America acting in its own selfish interests. And with no real *point* to the war, that perception, however incorrect it MAY be, remains. B) I can’t believe you can say this about the terrorists… Iraq became and still is a MAGNET for them. AND the very people who attacked us are not only still there in the region but are still operating and to some extent still in power in Afghanistan.

    Every time you say stuff like this, it’s like you’re living in a dream world… of Sean Hannity’s and Rush Limbaugh’s invention.

    “This cannot be described as anything other than a success and a vast improvement over the regime that was there before.”

    And WHAT did that accomplish for US? Was it WORTH the price we paid?

    And again, you’re being ridiculously rosy. Hatreds and in-fighting continue in Iraq. Unabated. Slowed, yes. But for a LONG overdue modest reduction in violence… you’re proclaiming some kind of victory? And you refuse to acknowledge how ABSURD that is?

    “But you’ll never hear about this from any democrat because their main focus on Iraq is for our failure.”

    Because it has BEEN a failure. A pointless, wasteful, unnecessary failure. All those resources and men should have been devoted to fighting the REAL enemy in Afghanistan. NOT in a country that had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.

  • Callie

    Let me get this straight. You are a grown man who is old enough to be my father telling me I’m supposed to be “embarassed” about my “cliched” arguments while in the same post you resort to calling me a moron and a doofus? Really?

    While we’re on the subject of poor debating:

    “Or you would sit in your liberal university office and shake your fists at the people serving there?”

    Uh, clearly, moron, you think this is the case. Equally clearly, you’re dead wrong.

    First of all, the first part of that statement doesn’t need to be written at all. Yes, clearly I DO think that is the case, otherwise I never would have typed it. I have a dog, I don’t need a parrot. Secondly, how is it clear that I’m wrong? Unless you’re holed up in a small private conservative university (which I highly doubt) there’s a GOOD chance your school, like a large percentage of college campuses across the US, has a liberal stance on many things. Third, “dead wrong.” Really? My thinking your college is probably liberal is a life or death thing? I’m still breathing, Randall. You have a bit more flair for the dramatic than me, but it doesn’t mean you’re any better a debator.

  • Callie

    It was, in the end, HIS decision to support the neo-con idiocy about Iraq, and to go to war there when the war in Afghanistan hadn’t even been won yet.

    Actually, it was congress who voted for it in the end. They passed it. Dems included. Back to seventh grade civics with you.

  • Callie

    Also (sorry, I tried to stop that last one from posting to add this in) we DO have troops in Afghanistan. We aren’t ignoring it by any means.

  • Randall

    I just need to get this in here.

    When 9/11 happened, I was in my office at the university. A friend in Texas called me (or was it chatted me? I can’t recall now) and, knowing I was from New York, told me to check the news–something was going on in NYC. “A plane crashed into the World Trade Center.” I figured, weird, but okay… and so I told a couple colleagues and we went down the hall and flicked on a TV in an empty classroom… and for the next few hours we all sat and watched it happen.

    We didn’t know then who did it, but of course it was obvious that it was organized terrorism. And in the ensuing days we found out who was responsible (except for the conspiracy nuts–they think Bush and the Illuminati were responsible).

    I had personal thoughts going on at that time which I won’t share, because this isn’t about me. But I will say that I was deeply angry. I was also deeply troubled. I had little confidence that the Bush administration would handle the situation well. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

    At any rate, I wanted the Taliban CRUSHED. I wanted Bin Laden hunted down like the miserable piece of garbage he is, along with all of his lieutants. I wanted and still want him to pay for what he had done. I wanted his deluded and repugnant followers punished or killed. I wanted to see the Taliban and hate-mongering assholes like them wiped from the face of the earth. I still do.

    But what happened? We can witness what happened. The Taliban and Bin Laden are still there. Al Qaeda still exists. This is a failure and betrayal of *monumental* proportions.

    Iraq instead became the focus. For no good reason. For an idiotic, unrealistic plot to “bring democracy to the Middle East,” devised by the very kind of elitist intellectuals people here are railing against… except those intellectuals were arrogant neo-conservatives.

    And like good sheep that some of you are, you ignore the facts of all this and wave the flag like you’ve been taught to do, and proclaim admiration for a moron in the White House who managed to turn a situation where we had almost the ENTIRE world’s sympathy and support into a situation where we have almost the entire world’s distrust and antipathy.

    I am deeply angered and offended to my core that Bush not only let that opportunity slip out of his hands but that he practically pushed it away. And deeply angered that the REAL enemies here have YET to be fully vanquished and crushed the way they SHOULD have been. Instead, what did we get? A dog and pony show which would have been laughable had it not cost so much in American blood and resources.

    The yahoos here will call this “anti-American.” Well they show their true colors when they do so. THAT is the kind of attitude that makes me fearful for the state of our society and the state of our democracy. It takes an informed and responsible citizenry to keep both going. But flag waving sheep make for tyrannies, not healthy societies or healthy democracies.

  • Randall

    Callie:

    “Actually, it was congress who voted for it in the end. They passed it. Dems included. Back to seventh grade civics with you.”

    Again, callie, you’re more interested in making an arcane political POINT of this (illogical as it is) rather than face it straight and be honest about it.

    You think you’re making some grand maneuver in pointing out that congress was complicit in the war in Iraq. But it’s IRRELEVANT. I DON’T CARE. I DON’T CARE IF EVERYONE IN THE US VOTED FOR IT, it was still wrong and a huge blunder. ALL THAT MATTERS NOW is that we have a choice between four MORE years of the same shit, not only with Iraq but with a hundred other things, and someone else who opposes the war AND wants to fix the gross mistakes made by the Bush administration in every OTHER regard.

    Seveth grade civics? You need to find some critical thinking skills, PERIOD.

  • bucslim

    Randall – I’m finished debating this with you. I’m sick and tired of your constant juvenile ‘oneupsmanship.’ You keep telling me how closed minded I am and ignore your own pigheadedness. Time and time again I state my opinion based upon the facts as I see them and you go off on some stupid bullshit laden rant essentially making me the love child of Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter. And yet you yourself are as every bit closed minded on this topic as you suppose I am. You ignore the facts and make up shit about me that isn’t true. It’s pointless to keep arguing facts with an insufferable know it all. I’m pissing off so you win.

  • trojan_man

    Callie, Buc, Rush: I do not mean to try to speak for Randall (I actually disagree with him more than I agree with him), but he is correct in a lot of the things he is saying. Our original focus was to find Al Qaeda and destroy them…in Afghanistan. We started out good enough and then basically just said “as long as we’re in the neighborhood”…and started a new war two countries away. The war in Iraq was NOT based on 9/11. It was based on an unfinished job from two decades ago.

    I know Randall has some diplomacy issues but if you can get past the personal attacks and really use your critical thinking, you’ll see he is pretty much dead-on here.

  • bloomfever2002

    I personally think we can handle a Black U.S president. I am “young” as my parents say and since I do not label myself as a Democrate or a Republican I am whats wrong with the country. I personally think people voting for a “party” and not the right person for the job is the problem. Who cares if they are black, white, man, woman, old, young, Democrate, Republican. The issues they stand on are the important reasons to vote. I may not know a lot about politics but I know how to make up myu own mind.

  • Randall

    “…we DO have troops in Afghanistan. We aren’t ignoring it by any means.”

    The absurd falsity of this statement is absolutely mind blowing. I can only conlude from it that you are not only a child in age, but also in temperament and intellect.

    There are countless military officers and analysts, and members of former administrations both Republican and Democrat, who disagree with you. Every bit of evidence we have disagrees with you. The current Secretary of Defense disagrees with you.

    The number of troops and the resources devoted to Afghanistan have ALWAYS been a FRACTION of what was devoted to Iraq. And still is. EVERY authority on this, regardless of political stance (except for Bush apologists and idiotic pundits) is in FULL AGREEMENT that we have neglected the war in Afghanistan and that we have allowed the Taliban repeatedly to regroup. Moreoever, Al Qaeda and Bin Laden himself are still active in the region and have managed to stage attacks on allied troops again and again, when the fact is the Taliban and Al Qaeda should have been CRUSHED there, years ago.

  • Randall

    trojan_man:

    Thank you. I know we disagree a lot of the time on political/social issues, but here you see, yes, that we both, you and I, are using our grey matter. Others, sadly, are not.

  • Callie

    One of the biggest differences between Democrats and Republicans is that Republicans believe Democrats to be wrong, whereas Democrats believe Republicans to be evil.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    I can do nothing but shrug and say “whatever” to you. So be it.

    But one last thing:

    “You ignore the facts”

    I would challenge you to point out to me one SINGLE “fact” that I have ignored. One.

    And something else. You have always come back at me and hit me with this crap about calling you something you’re not and pinning you with labels. Well sorry, but it’s bullshit. Your words and your stances speak for themselves, pal. *I* don’t label you. You do.

  • Randall

    Callie:

    And again, this is simply a “debate” to you, is it? I would advise you to take your responsibility as a citizen of this country more seriously than that.

    As for “quality” of debate, you have yet to make a single point that refutes anything I have said, either in the first place or in response to you. THAT, Callie, is poor debating skills.

    Cheap shots about “liberal universities” aren’t examples of strong debating talents, callie. They’re examples of a mind that’s got no place else to go with its arguments but into irrelevant cliche.

  • Mike

    If a candidate as smart as Barack Obama comes along, we should all vote for him no matter what race he is.

    Some people support Obama simply because he is black. Some people don’t support him simply because he is black. I support him simply because he is a smart man.

  • Callie

    “I DON’T CARE. I DON’T CARE IF EVERYONE IN THE US VOTED FOR IT, it was still wrong and a huge blunder”

    you’ve just proven you only have your own selfish opinion to expound on. “I don’t care if it was a completely legal democratic decision. I dont agree with it so it’s obviously wrong” No Randall. You pride yourself on using facts and thats exactly what I was doing. Congress voted. Majority won. We went to war. Fact, fact, FACT. You thinking it was wrong? Not fact.

    I’d also like to go back to this because it’s important to me.

    “And the reason this is done is because 99.9% of the time, the people shooting their mouth off at me about this are people who NEVER served in combat themselves and have had NO immediate relatives who served in combat.”

    Well..you’ve never served either, and I have had family who’s served it this war and in previous wars, so I will continue to shoot my mouth off because I’m in your .1% of people who are apparently allowed to do so. Thanks for the permission.

  • Callie

    And again, this is simply a “debate” to you, is it? I would advise you to take your responsibility as a citizen of this country more seriously than that.

    Um…what is this to you? Do you think the candidates are reading this closely? That John will see this and just drop out of the race? Are you under the impression that you’ve changed anyone’s mind on this forum? If anything, you’ve served to make my convictions stronger. I was born with an elephant in my heart just as sure as your were born with a stick up your ass.

    I take my responsibility as a citizen quite seriously. I turned 23 less than a week ago and have a damn good grip on politics, culture, and despite what you think I’m actually very smart and graduated with honors a semester early. I’ve voted in every election, both national and local, that I’ve been eligible for, I recycle, and I volunteer at my local animal shelter. I also engage in healthy political debates online because I enjoy them.

    ..Did it mean more to you than it did to me Randall? I apologize for the heartbreak.

  • Randall

    callie:

    “you’ve just proven you only have your own selfish opinion to expound on.”

    Hardly. It’s proved nothing of the kind. Majority vote doesn’t mean the majority is RIGHT, callie. THAT is seventh grade civics.

    Again, I am hardly a voice in the wilderness on this issue. Bush has a 20% approval rating and his rating for the prosecution of the war is no better. So if you’re trying to make this into a debate about the efficacy of democracy, I’d suggest you check out EVERY single poll taken on the issue for the last three years. And, of course, we’ll see the results of all this in a couple months. If Obama is elected, as I believe he will be, you’ll have your democratic decision on the legacy of George Bush and his party.

    My point was that this question doesn’t turn on what Congress did or didn’t do before the war began. It turns on what we’re going to do to FIX it, and who WILL fix it or let it go on as it has, and perhaps do worse.

  • Randall

    callie:

    “Um…what is this to you?”

    It is NOT about cute debating tricks and oneupsmanship, or counting coup on an opponent. It’s about truth, facts, intelligence and what is right. You, on the other hand, have been playing games, and nothing else.

    “I was born with an elephant in my heart just as sure as your were born with a stick up your ass.”

    Well, as you see, putting together cute, but utterly irrelevant rhetorical jabs are clearly more important to you than THINKING about the question and FACING it.

    And to go beyond this, you don’t even know me. You know nothing of my family history except what I’ve already mentioned. In point of fact my family were and still are Republicans. I myself was a card-carrying conservative Republican from the time I could vote in the early 80s until the mid 90s. The difference between us is, I have a brain and a conscience and can examine questions with critical thinking skills which you obviously don’t yet possess. I’d advise you to grow up and seek them out, or cultivate them.

    I’m quite pleased that you vote and take your citizenship seriously, though it seems lacking to me thus far. It’s nice to hear that you volunteer and pitch in. And I don’t care if you want to be a right winger, that’s your prerogative.

    But when you stop being HONEST and stop facing the hard questions with integrity and truthfulness, that’s when you’re wrong and behaving badly as a citizen. You want to vote for McCain, vote for him. But don’t lie about how great things have been under Bush and how the war has gone swimmingly. Find decent and honorable reasons for your stances–don’t hide behind propaganda and mindless dogma and rhetoric.

  • Mom424

    Callie: Only one point you neglected to mention. Congress only voted to go to war after they were lied to and manipulated into it.

    Spend an hour or two of your time and watch this. Then we’ll talk. Or of course don’t and prove yourself to be as closed minded as others I could name. Who of course wouldn’t bother either. Because they know everything.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

  • Callie

    So..now that I know what it’s NOT, care to answer my actual question and tell me what it IS? And I’m the one playing games. Yeah.

  • Callie

    I myself was a card-carrying conservative Republican from the time I could vote in the early 80s until the mid 90s

    oh my god you were?

  • Anon

    Callie,

    When the (second) war against Iraq was first being mooted, I remember reading and watching on the TV plenty about something called weapons of mass destruction being the casus belli. We were assured this information was totally reliable and the product of the full force of U.S. national intelligence.

    If that had convinced and worried any of your politicians as much as it did me at the time and I had been one of them, I would have voted to go into Iraq, even if I gad been a blazing left-wing commie.

    But there were no WMD were there?

  • Callie

    I myself was a card-carrying conservative Republican from the time I could vote in the early 80s until the mid 90s

    Oh my god you were? I don’t think you’ve mentioned that YET! Or how proud you are that you were able to see past the conservative BS and become your own person/thinker/political entity.

    I have a brain and a conscience and can examine questions with critical thinking skills which you obviously don’t yet possess. I’d advise you to grow up and seek them out, or cultivate them.

    Where have I gone wrong except that our opinions differ? Do I come across as uneducated? Are my thoughts lacking in syntax and grammar skills? You’re proud of my volunteer work then turn around and tell me I have no conscience? Interesting.

    Do you think that you know me based on some posts any better than I think I know you? You make arguments and cover them in verbal bile so thick I don’t feel like wading through to find what is sometimes a good, well thought out point. You have the gall to berate everyone who dares disagree with you as stupid, moronic, and apparently doofus-y. I compell you, just once, to make your arguement without insult or holier than thou attitude, and just engage in normal, healthy debate with someone. Yes, I do mean on here, not in real life with all your apparent real world friends.

  • Anon

    Sorry, Mom,

    You said it already. Still, it doesn’t hurt to come another way from another observer of another nationality living in another part of the globe!

  • Anon

    Beware the majority. Just beware, note. In other words, be careful of accepting or believing anything simply because it’s majority approved.

    Churchill and a few others warned against Hitler and the Nazis. *The majority* in Britain didn’t believe him and didn’t want to. They called him a warmonger who gloried in war and merely wanted another one for self-glorification. One of the biggest calumnies that has ever been put out by Britons against one of their own. Churchill was a deeply human man who detested war as inhuman. He simply knew he had a talent for conducting it rather than peacetime affairs.

    When the majority is wrong, we often only survive because of the powerful, insistent and brave voices of the minority who eventually convince us of reality.

  • Callie

    by that logic, all the people currently against the war (the majority) are not to be trusted. How about just standing up for what you think is right no matter which side of the fence you fall on.

  • diogenes’ dildo

    ok, fine, i’ll be the big dummy dildo in the room (because eventhough it’ll be ignored, it’l’ still be read and all is in horrible horrible jest)
    for just a moment here anyhow
    and go back to the MILF
    for just a moment anyhow here.
    Ahh the MILF
    As Mickey C is on Tee Vee
    and the view shows THEM TWO in their mature and sexified smiling,”you our man! Mickey C!”
    Is there something wrong with having two MILFS in the white house?
    Mickey C da Man!
    Got im self 2 MILFS

    So sorry.
    Had to.
    it’s just for my own entertainment (?)

  • Anon

    Callie, (415),

    or is it callow? Oh dear. I didn’t ask you to prove Randall was correct about the need to improve your logic, deduction and argumentative powers.

    Watch my lips, watch them very carefully, because I chose my words here deliberately. Did my first paragraph in any way state or imply “don’t trust the (i.e. any) majority”?

    “beware, v.i. & t. Be cautious, take heed.”
    “trust,(as) v.t. & i. Firm belief in the honesty, veracity, justice, strength of a person or thing. Person ot thing confided in. Reliance of truth of statement, etc. without examination.”
    Since those two words appear to be synonymous in meaning to you, I suggest you go away and take a lesson in English comprehension and then return to the forum. I’m being neither patronising or intellectually snobby. I would expect reasonably educated pre-university upper schoolchildren whose native tongue was English to know and understand the difference.

    I hope you can now go back to 414 and appreciate exactly what I was explaining.

    As for standing up for what you believe in. Good Grief. Fuck whether that’s exactly the same as eveyone else in the world (easy), or you are entirely alone (difficult, often requiring courageous strength of character, may even be risky). Do it. Or at least don’t go against it, since sometimes it may simply be too dangerous to support openly, unless you are prepared and willing to suffer the consequences.

    That I cited Churchill as someone who did precisely that and you immediately called my point to question really does prove Randall, I fear.

    By the way, please note the only personal *insult* I offered here was a slight tease on your name I couldn’t resist. Sorry. You’ve provided all the rest yourself.

  • Kase

    368. segue

    Alrighty then….

    All I’m gonna say is..

    In a world, ran by greedy old white men….greedy old white men will rule.

    racist? no

    sad? you bet

    do I care? not so much, I’m still trying to pass school man.

    later days, and read this http://www.cracked.com/article_16605_8-most-obnoxious-internet-commenters.html

    make sure to read the political activist one, for that is what I feel most of the online political activist on here are, and everyone on the Does God Exist your view is a Mr. Science…. just read and you’ll get it…

    -Kase

  • Cedestra

    First: “making me the love child of Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter.” ::involuntary shudder:: Why, bucslim, did you have to put that image into my head?
    Secondly: #400- Callie, I don’t have the political know-how, the time, the patience, or the fervor to keep up with the ongoing political debate. However, I will say that is easily the most assanine thing I’ve heard from you, if not on this whole list. And that includes the statement made by diogenes’ dildo. Did you get that from “The Red Book of Political Quips” featuring Rush Limbaugh? Stop painting people blue or red and making broad statements about them.
    Thirdly: Anon, I’m a tad confused. As far as I know, my name wasn’t hijacked. Those statements above were made by me. I think I grouped you with badlist at some point; the statement I made about filtering voters based on current events was a snide comment, but I think I misread your original statement. I thought you had said something about 20s somethings being retarded, etc. etc. My n00bie head took offense ::sniff::

  • Cedestra

    LOL @ Kase- this debate brought that article to mind several times.

  • Anon

    Cedestra, (419),

    I don’t think I’m dreaming (or properly, nightmaring!). On a couple of sites you’ll find pointless references by me to numbered remarks by *Cedestra* that don’t exist (correction: no longer exist). The one I remember and have just checked is Nº 390 of the Animal Testing topic. You’ll see my second item: an enigmatic comment to *Cedestra* which actually absurdly refers to the same posting (390). The original 390 was silently removed, presumably by the site administrators.

    A lot of nasty stuff was banging around at that moment, which happily appears to have been snuffed out, although I imagine the perpetrator(s) is/are still reading all this.

    Perhaps the whole episode blew up and over whilst you were *off air*. I suggest you contact jfrater or Cyn to check. If I then prove to have been caught up in some terrible confusion I didn’t and don’t understand, let’s just drop the whole thing.

    Assuming there is something behind it, I think you need to know, and would also be grateful for an acknowledgement to put my mind at rest.

    Thanks and regards.

  • Anon

    Cedestra,

    “I thought you had said something about 20s somethings being retarded”

    Who ME?????? Some (check, many) of my best friends are 20-somethings! Retardation is a state of mind, not a physical (tree-ring) age!

  • I’m personally not ready for “Obama”. Not that he is black, that has nothing to do with it. I personally do not like him. I think he is all bullshit. What makes me mad is that he is pretty popular with my generation, the 20-somethings…and the main reason being, because it’s “cool” to be for Obama.
    Whenever I ask people around my age why they are going to vote for him, they never can give me a good answer…”Oh he will make the “CHANGE” this country needs.” Ok, idiot. If you pay attention to what he is offering this country and you really like what he stands for, then more power to ya! Everyone has the right to their choices and opinions. I just wish more people would make up their minds for themselves before deciding who should rule our country for the next 4 years. Just because he seems like a cool guy that can play basketball and such, does not mean he will be a good president.
    I will be voting for McCain. He stands for what I believe in, and don’t get me wrong, ALL politicians are liars, cheaters, and bullshitters. I’m just voting for the lesser of two evils.
    Back to the subject though, I think imo that most people in this country are fine with possibly having a black president. But there still are MANY people who are not cool with it. Pertaining particularly to the retired white male population.
    Whatever happens, happens. I just hope whoever becomes our next president fixes our countries problems efficiently.

  • mickey

    first i must say i am canadian, and i am openly admitting to being a fence sitter on the race issue. the only race to me that is supreme.. is the human race. each race has their pros and cons and i guess you could say i hate them all equally (including my own race which is white). that being said… on to my point!

    i am all for obama. he is the change americans need. i was watching his speech he did in colorado and i was totally impressed by everything he said. i especially liked how he didn’t exactly follow suit and attack the other candidates. what i like most about him, is the fact that he doesn’t seem to be in it for himself, he seems to be in it for his country. now i know there will be race riots.. the kkk will go nuts, and his chances of being assinated are very high, but i’m hoping americans see past that bullshit. after going through the last 8 years with that war loving idiot BUSH and having president after president do absolutly fuck all for their country i’m hoping americans will vote for a CHANGE. things aren’t working as they are now.. so it is time for a change. i feel he will do his best to change what he can while having the ability to accept the things he can’t. GO OBAMA

  • trojan_man

    Mickey: the change America needs is NOT a bigger government…and some of his policies are exactly that. Don’t just support him because he is not a Republican. No matter what you think, John McCain is NOT George W. Bush.

  • Nauplius

    I wouldn’t trust anyone who comes from the Chicago political machine no matter what color they are.

  • Cedestra

    Anon: I responded on the animal testing list. It seems someone has been using my alias: I hadn’t posted to that list in a very long time, if I ever had. I’ve been very heated on the science fiction list and posting occasionally to this one, but not that much. I agree with Jamie; ad hominem attacks only make you look stupid. I try to make my posts slightly reserved because I just can’t sink my all into arguing with people I’ve never met. Seems a waste of time. I used to work myself into a lather whenever I was ganked (killed) on World of Warcraft (damn you, Alliance gnome rogues, damn you!!!), but I got over it and really stopped putting so much energy into it.
    I find my politics/ideas don’t agree with rushfan, bucslim, and usually kiwiboi, but I find all of them mature and well thought-out people. Randall and I have similar views, but I don’t agree with the name calling (but agree that sometimes it just has to be done). Same with SlickWilly, although he’s generally more cheerful, and segue and Mom242.
    I think you, Anon, and I have similar ways of thinking and being, so I was confused at this (quote in a quote): “badlist,

    “To be honest i really dont care who these people vote for as long as they educate themselves first as to what each of the candidates stands for.”

    Never mind the 20 somethings. Never mind the party preference. ¿Pass an exam on knowledge of the issues and the candidates before you’re allowed to vote? Wow, That’d really thin them out.”
    For some reason I took that as you’d be thinning out the 20-somethings. It’s not holding as strong in my mind as before, but I can see how it can be taken both ways. I thought you were hurting my feelings as a 26-year-old :) If you meant generally, then yeah, I’d like that. That would be good.

  • RockNTheFreeWorld

    Before I say this, I want to note that I am not talking about Obama here, just a random black candidate.

    It depends. If the person in particular is seen as one who won’t be for all of the US, only their particular race, then no. If the person running is seen as for all the people of the US, then yes. The same applies for any race/sex/religion/etc, but candidates from the different “minority” groups seem to be pushed toward forwarding their own group ahead of everyone else. Racism flows in all directions and I don’t think most of the US will vote for someone who is seen as favoring special rights for any individual groups over others.

    Like many others, I have issues with Obama’s policies, not any physical trait he has. Thomas Sowell or Walter Williams would get my vote in a heart-beat because they fit my policy stances. I still believe Condi Rice would make a great President, even if her time as Secretary of State has not been as good as I thought it would be. And I believe most of America is like me, they vote on the issues, not physical traits.

    But I will throw a caveat in there that actually plays to the “minority” candidate. Most of us want something other than a white male to be in the White House. We want the White House to look like America. So we have a tendency to actually give more leeway to a minority candidate on certain things and get more excited about them than a white male candidate who is exactly the same. Hillary Clinton sis not draw more voters because she is female, but they were more vocal about their support. Obama is not getting more votes because he is black, but his supporters are louder about defending him.

  • 418. Kase, I read http://www.cracked.com/article…..nters.html
    I read *ALL* of it. It was funny, disturbing, and all too true. I’ve noticed the numbers of spammers, the folks who show up and post one or two nasty or meaningless posts, then disappear into the cosmos.
    Well, okay.
    For the most part they really do no harm. They just spout off, because they can, and then go find someone else to bother.
    BFD.
    They’re mostly kids. They’re bored (the first sign of a weak personality and a poor mentality). They can’t come up with anything more original to do. Again, BFD.
    Oh, and btw, Kase, I’m female, *not* a dude. Hard to tell here, I know. I just really hate being called “dude”. I think it’s a generational thing.

  • Cedestra

    …that’s why I called that random, two-word poster on the fantsy books list a “ninja”.

  • Anon

    Cedestra, (427),

    Thanks for your long and careful reply. I found your other one across on Animal Testing and briefly acknowledged there.

    Thinking about it, you were also lodged at the back of my mind as one of the people who fitted into what I might call (but none too seriously!) my *like-mindeds*, here. Mind you, agreement and disagreement with anyone can vary interestingly from topic to topic, even allowing for broad trends. Your placement is borne out by your own list above, which coincides pretty well with mine. There are valued co-incidental thinkers and highly respected *opponents*. Then come all the rest, a great range grading from people just as well-informed, but who almost seem to be speaking a different language. (At times they’re close to being exclusively cultural- or generational-plus-jargon, as per the *dude* comment of segue in 429). Right down in the pits sink the mercifully limited and deleted e-scum. E-scum is probably a bad metaphor, since scum at least floats, and this stuff is the stinking, lowermost, anaerobic crud! For that reason I was confused by your *hi-jacker* (just as you were about my 20-something-itis) and trying to wring some sense out.

    Yup, I think I understand how Randall is Randall though. I’m very slow to anger. Yet I’ve been trying to contain my sometime seething frustration at one or two opponents on LV (reasons for that reaction are varied and complex), and only managing with difficulty at times. They’ve managed to set my mind in Randall mode. I stop short because I want to win or block them with cold logic, not offer the chance of an *escape route*.

    I do always try to be careful with my wording and sense, so am (a) sorry you thought I was attacking your age group, and (b) glad that was sorted out. Every time people post up about *old white males* here, my hackles rise, especially as I like to kid myself my values and mental flexibility are the exact reverse of what they intend! Why can’t they just put SOME old white males? It’s not the *old* that gets me either, its the crap that goes with it. Ageism? Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.

  • TheOddball

    When one votes, he has to wonder, “What do I really want America to shape into?”. Then, he has to vote for the one who is at his level/type of thinking. America has become so corrupt today, because so many corrupt people want to vote for someone who has their ideals. They think, “Oooooh! Less taxes!”. They only look at what they want to. Candidates count on this, and once they are in office, they start to take over. Rinse and repeat, and you have corrupt’-ness’ all over the place. America was way better than it is now! People weren’t so manipulative back then, and trusted one another.

  • TheOddball

    I don’t know if we are ready for Barack Obama OR John McCain.
    It would be choosing the lesser of the two evils, if you could call it that. It’s more like, choosing an equal evil!

  • jasontimmer

    rushfan- #317- Obama’s the only one in a position to bring this country out of the depths because he’s 1 of 2 candidates for presidency, the other one favoring the same actions that sent us into this hellhole. McCain makes jokes about bombing Iran. You wanna do that? Then pick a major American city you want wiped off the map. Not only does this piece of shit WANT to start ANOTHER war, he thinks it’s FUNNY. If McCain/Palin *shudder* gets elected, may God have mercy on our souls.

  • delpsecies

    I think it’s sad that you have a thread on if America is ready for a black president. Being in my thirties (and also living in the south), I think the majority of everyone I know is more interested on having a president who can properly run the nation. More important than your skin color is how you plan on combating rising energy prices, relieving over taxation, improving education and boosting the dollar.

  • Chewie

    OH i love how you “open minded libs” will call everyone from the south an uneducated redneck and go by the stereotype that every republican is a rich old fat white guy who is behind the times. Do your homework and quit taking in the liberal press like jonestown kool-aid. McCain may not be the best guy in the world but he is more qualified, more experienced and more bipartisan than Obama.

    I don’t care of he is black white or purple. Obama has never written a single bill or law the whole time he has been a state or US senator. So when it comes down to it he has never done the job he was elected for.

    Would you let a doctor with he same amount of experience operate on one of your kids.

    I have to give Obama credit he did win a Grammy for reading a book about himself.

    Come on people quit try to be trendy and use your heads

  • 436. Chewie, from who do you get your information? Or do you just make it up?
    Obama has written or sponsored over 100 bills in the Senate. 100!
    Do you see a difference between zero and 100?

  • Cedestra

    436—>437. Not only that, but Randall also posted several bills above that he co-wrote or sponsored. Go do your homework and stop spewing shit you’ve heard from a couple of people. That’s called misinformation and you just feel into the trap.
    Fantastic how you pick a couple of random selections and assume we’re all “open minded liberals”. Several people on this list, actually, are not liberals (had you taken then time to properly educate yourself on the list).
    I actually have never met someone from the South/Texas who wasn’t educated enough to listen and hold an intellectual conversation about politics. Actually, the person who I disliked discussing politics the most with was a dittohead from rural Maine. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
    “Would you let a doctor with he same amount of experience operate on one of your kids.” Well, if I had the choice between a fairly competent surgeon with a great head nurse, or a surgeon about the croak and a shaky head nurse, yes.

  • Mom424

    delpsecies (#435): You do realize that the very best way to boost the dollar is to stop spending a trillion dollars a year on war? Who do you think will end the conflict in Iraq fastest? Who has pledged the most resources to alternate energy sources? Who has the least ties to big business and the oil industry? Answer those questions before you cast your vote.

  • Magus

    America has the world’s craziest system for electing the President. Forget how good (or bad) the candidates are, the one with the most campaign money has a huge advantage. Last time round an idiot came second in number of votes, but still snatched the job with the help of his daddy! And you let him get away with it. Your system makes it almost impossible for any decent, honest and ethical person to win. You deserve a Robert Mugabe.

  • longball

    i think that if obama gets elected, he will get assasinated. Shitty to say, but i really think so.

  • longball

    and does everyone realize how little power the president actuall has???? everyone says so and so will stop the war or they will do this or that when all they can really do is suggest ideas. its the senators and the house that make the rules and laws and decisions, so think about that before you vote. All the president is is a face for america internationally and a guy to blame when shit hits the fan!

  • Spocker

    “Your View: Is the US Ready for a Black President?”

    Not THIS black President.

  • Randall

    longball:

    In fact, the presidency has been gaining in power steadily since WWII. For a time, after Watergate, the power of the Executive branch was curtailed a bit, but Bush has proven that, with a complicit congress, the presidency is capable of damn near anything.

    We should be worried about this, but apparently few people are. Certainly none on the right. They forget that someday we might get a president from the left who does the things Bush has done to run roughshod over the constitution… then, of course, they’ll balk.

  • longball

    Randall –

    I can agree with that, I but all in all the president is on the short end when it comes to being a powerhouse in the big trifecta (Exec, Leg, and Jud Branches). I also think that congress will not be as complacent this term as they were the last few terms because of what has occured, the roughriding. But i really don’t care either way, America is not ready for a black president. Vote for McCain in 08!!!

  • Dan

    Of corse America is ready for a black president, but NOT Obama. He is a racist, and has extremely poor judgement, and extremely inexperienced. His wife is an idiot, his friend is a terrorist, his pastor is a racist, and his campain manager is corrupt. The only reason he got away with this stuff is because he is black.

  • Randall

    Dan:

    Your rock is getting cold. Go craw back under it. Moron.

  • Brad Magyar

    If McCain was black as well, I would still vote for him.

  • Yvonne

    As a non American citizen I hope you do not mind my input of opinion on this highly topical debate. Due to the extensive coverage of the American elections which we receive in the United Kingdom I have come to the conclusion that Barrack Obama is the best man for the job and if I were indeed a United States citizen I would vote for this amazing man in a second, I believe that America is a great country, the majority of people there are friendly, un-biased and welcoming to everyone regardless of colour, race or gender. I wish Mr Obama all the best in his election campaign and sincerely hope that Americans vote for him in the election. Thanks x

  • Anon

    By chance I happened to glance through one of the June issues of our rather right-wing Chilean major newspaper, El Mercurio, today. It had a page feature on who might be better econcomically for Chile and South America of the two presidential candidates. The result was fairly inconclusive. Both candidates consider the region important.

    However, it pointed out that Obama’s proposed economic policy was generally far more highly regarded both by economists and the public.

    It also noted that McCain proposed to leave present agreements with South America exactly as they were, with the addition of maximum encouragement of free trade. Obama, on the other hand, was concerned to re-negotiate where possible to tie in with better working conditions and rights for Latin Americans.

  • Burst and Bloom

    Oh please. That’s just ridiculous.

    Anyways all I know is that I’m voting for Obama this fall. We’ll have to see how America does, won’t we?

  • Dan

    wow Randall, you are really mature. Grow up, don’t call people names just because you cannot defend Obama and his horrible judgement and lack of experience in foreign and economic policy.

  • mickey

    well i can’t exactly support any of the candidates since i’m not american, and yes that is true they don’t need a bigger government, they need a smarter leader…and from what i seen of him he seems to be very intelligent. comparing intelligence to bush…a brick would be smarter!! and yes i know mccain isn’t bush…i don’t think anyone could be him (thank fucking god). my point was simply that americans haven’t been thinking straight these last few elections. they voted for bush twice…they need someone who doesn’t have the book upside down and his head in ass. as i said obama gave me the impression that he wasn’t in it for himself…but for his country. i feel he truely and sincierly(sp) wants to change things. sure mccain probably does too.. but i didn’t get the same feeling from him when i watched his speech. on a personal level i don’t follow politics really..politics to me is like american idol- only worth watching the auditions..because chances are the one you want wont win and if he does he makes one album and then he’s gone from the spotlight- same thing to me because it’s fun to watch the candidates during their campaigne run, then the one you want either wont win or if he does he’ll go strong for a little bit and then fuck up.

  • Randall

    Dan:

    Listen pinhead, I have no NEED to defend Obama. YOU have a deep need to defend your idiotic statements about him. Where do you get off saying the ridiculously absurd and offensive things you said about him? Just HOW is he a “racist”? Where’s your evidence for this? And just how does he have “extremely poor judgement”? I demand you support that unbelievably stupid statement, particularly given the MONUMENTALLY poor judgement shown by John McCain in picking Sarah Palin for the VP spot. And I’m sick to death of hearing this bullshit about Obama being “extremely inexperienced.” All you’re doing is parroting what you’ve heard from moronic radio and TV talk shows… do you even KNOW anything about Obama’s record? Clearly not, if you can call him “extremely inexperienced” without batting an eye.

    And just HOW is Obama’s wife “an idiot” as you so idiotically called her? Where do you get THAT? And what friend of his is a “terrorist”? Again, more nonsense you’ve swallowed from the distorting and swiftboating right-wing side of the media. And the issue of Obama’s pastor was settled long ago, Dan… get with the program. But if you want to have a debate about THAT, I’d be glad to take you on.

    Finally, just HOW is Obama’s campain manager “corrupt”? Again, defend this statement and give supporting EVIDENCE, or shut the hell up AND, as I suggested, go crawl back under the bigoted, fringe-element, conspiracy-theory-toting right wing rock you oozed out from under.

  • Randall

    mickey:

    “…americans haven’t been thinking straight these last few elections.”

    You got that right, Mickey.

    See, the big problem with much of the middle class and lower class (or working class if you like) of this country (the US) is that they repeatedly vote against their own self-interest. The Republican party over the last eight years (but really it started long before) has clearly shown how it is unbreakably tied to big business and that it’s true agenda lies in securing more and more favors and breaks to large corporations, big oil, and the like. But it fools the working classes of this country with a lot of smoke and mirrors about it, distracting them with patriotic bullshit and promises of “tending the economy” and “keeping taxes low,” neither of which is really true, when you look closely at the facts.

    But the Republicans *have* had that great trick up their sleeves, which is that they learned once and for all, under Reagan, that the way to win over the vast middle and lower classes of this country was to play up to their populism. The Republicans didn’t use to do that, prior to Reagan… populism was back then more successfully exploited by the Democrats. But somewhere along the line they (the Republicans) figured it out, and began to steal it away… and then, in due course, a great chunk of the American people came to believe the Republican line, which continually says that “your taxes are too high, and the Democrats want to raise them even more” like a broken record. Sometimes, yes, our taxes HAVE been too high, and sometimes Dems have wanted to raise them. But it’s rarely been as simple as that. Even now, no one’s paying attention to the fact that Obama’s plan raises taxes on NO ONE in the middle or lower classes — only on the very rich, and on big business… and this ONLY to bring us back to more fair ground, because the ultra-rich in this country have been reaping benefit after benefit for YEARS now while A) the gulf between rich and poor has grown dangerously large and B) the middle and lower classes have been paying more and more.

    Yet still, a lot of them can’t get the wax out of their ears or the mud out of their heads and LISTEN or THINK or PAY ATTENTION to the facts. We’ve had eight years of Republican rule and nothing but scandal, gigantic favors to the ultra-rich and big corporations, (witness the latest scandal with our Dept. of the Interior and Big Oil), a huge failure in oversight, a ruined economy and a housing market in one of the biggest messes since WWII. AND still there’s a big segment of this population who thinks McCain is the answer, when it’s HIS party that’s done all this, and worse, the last eight years. Not to mention a DISASTROUS foreign policy which McCain wholeheartedly supported… but because of lumpen flag-waving nonsense, a big number of people still think HE’S better equipped to handle foreign matters than Obama, who at every turn has shown superior judgment. It boggles the mind.

    But it doesn’t really, because as I say, all this is the result of a well-oiled tactic played up by the right-wing since the 80s—to always fall back on appealing to the baser instincts of the American people and to fool them by constantly telling them they’re paying too many taxes and that the Democrats want to raise them even more. And it still works today despite the great economic success of the 90s, driven by a *Democratic* administration. If the tactic EVER had any truth in it (certainly at one time it had some) it certainly doesn’t now. But people still fall for it.

  • longball

    i will not vote for a man who turned from his pastor and church because of what the media thinks….coward!

  • critique

    Randall: What you’ve described in terms of people voting against their own econmic interests happened here in Australia for 11 years, and was also achieved through populist rhetoric. The lower-middle and working class folk voted for a government whose main goal was to minimist worker’s rights and to shift to on economically ‘rational’ society, thus causing these voters no end of harm. This was achieved through the rhetoric of fear to great success.
    The other problem is that in Australia, the two major parties are meant to be ideological opposites, but are now very similar. People still hang on to the belief that this is not so. From my understanding, somthing very similar has occurred in the US in terms of the majority of domestic policies that do not carry religious overtones espused by both parties (i.e. universal healthcare = socialism = political death, and won’t be touched; welfare = bad, and gun ownership = a right)… Please let me know if I’m wrong?

  • critique

    *minimise

  • critique

    Man, spelling errors abound in the post: this is what happens with no sleep :-(

  • Randall

    critique:

    No, you’re not really wrong. Over the last 30 years, the two parties have grown more alike in terms of ideology. This meant that both parties moved further to the right than they had previously been, so there was more overlap in the center.

  • liquidfire

    you know what i don’t get is…… this man is half white, and was raised by a white mom. why is it all people see is a black man. i know this is off subject, but halle berry gets critized for her roles with white man, when her mother is white. i just don’t get this at all. yes i heard the saying we all bleed the same blood, but if our mothers and grandfathers don’t like a person because of his skin color, well….the devil will not have a hard time collecting souls. i feel not hate for people like this, but sorry…..cause hell is forever.

  • liquidfire

    for people who say i will not vote, because you don’t think either one is quified, let me remind you of something. bush vs kerry. i live in the south, and around that time i heard alot if rednecks say (let bush finish this mess) do you know when that first four year term was up, bush had manage to mess the economy up, that would take at least 20 years to repair , but these dumb redneck was sitting back here in the south hoping he was going to fix this mess, but things got worst. my fellow american we are in recession, and if you don’t know what that mean you will find it close to the word depression. there is a reasoning rednecks in the south vote republican one: alot of them are poor, and they don’t give a damn about the economy, they have been poor their whole life, and on the filp side rich rednecks are smart enough to know keeping a republican in offices will benefit them, but what i don’t get is the middle class rednecks they are getting hit hard. yet these people voted for bush,and will vote for mccain. i have to say if you chose not to vote because no one is qualified in your veiw, then when your mom, and dad have lost most of the things they have worked for. i’m not feeling sorry cause that’s what you get, you made the choice to do nothing. this is american and we are suppose to be leaders. four more years of wars, and this will be a third world country. lol it’s funny now, but soon you will be crying. i promise. so go ahead don’t vote, or vote for a warmonger. i’m sure the rednecks of the south would be prond of the non voters.

  • Randall

    liquidfire:

    What you are talking about (if I understand you correctly) is what I’ve talked about here before–people of the lower and middle classes voting against their own best interests. They’ve done it time and time again over the last thirty years, fooled by a Republican party that plays them like cellos at the philharmonic.

    But we’ll see. Maybe finally people are waking up. Depends on who wins this election, then we’ll know.

  • liquidfire

    RANDALL FOR PRESIDENT……..OUR NEW AMERICAN GENERATION

  • Cedestra

    456. longball: /sigh You won’t vote for a man who, when learning how he differed from what his pastor was saying, turned away? I’m sure some part of the reasoning behind him leaving his church, however large or small, was political, but would you stand behind a man, a symbol, who said said many things you didn’t agree with? And is that your only reason? Church loyalty usurps all other qualities in a president? Sarah Palin *also* switched her churches, from a Pentacostal church. So, you have no major ticket to go with.

  • squid

    I don’t know, tell me when a black man runs for presidency, considering Obama is more white than he is black.

  • MDWhite

    Yes, I do…just not this one. This has nothing to do with melanin count. Simply put, those policies Obama has voiced are pure socialism. Those he’s danced around are ill-defined, superficial and outright. All would be disastrous for our country.

  • liquidfire

    why do people always mix politics with religion? where do you find religion? did obama get his political advise from that church, and was obama there every sunday? and if he was…. did he have to agree with every single thing that pastor said? i wonder if every people in america did, every single thing their pastor did. i wonder what this world would be like? you have had a president for eight years that was suppose to be a religious man, he have lied to you, and me over, and over again. i wonder was he following his pastors advise to lie. what will it take for you to open your eyes, like i said before recession leads to depression.

  • http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/low-wage/
  • Bo Andersen

    I FEAR McCain and Palin! Believers with power elected by stupid, white men – what a dangerous cocktail!

    Not only the US, but the whole world is ready for Obama. He is SOOO important for the future of our little planet.

    I think that everybody on Earth should be allowed to vote. I am from Denmark, and the guy who’s in charge in the White House has enormous effect on my daily life. Without Bush for instance, my country wouldn’t be engaged in this war based on lies, lies, lies.

    Here in Europe we are all behind Obama. McCain wil fuck it all up even more.

  • AEd

    Are we ready for a black President, YES, BUT not Obama.
    Are we ready for McCain and Palin, NO NO NO NO.
    What we need is TRUE separation of church and state and candidates that are not right wing religious fundamentalists.

  • Randall

    AEd:

    So what do you propose, if not Obama?

  • Team

    Yeah we are ready for a black president, but not this socialist…

  • Randall

    Team:

    Lay out your EVIDENCE that Obama is a socialist or has a socialist agenda.

    What is it? Where is it?

  • not That JB

    1. Universal Healthcare- that is a socialist program. those who can pay will and those who can’t get it for free.
    2. Redistribution of Wealth – taking from the rich to give to the poor
    3. Follower of Saul Alinsky.
    4. Democrat

    Thats 4, Randall. Looks like a socialist agenda to me.

  • MT

    OBAMA IN ’08!!!!!

  • liquidfire

    WHY DON’T WE JUST KILL THE POOR, AND KEEP THE RICH HAPPY

  • liquidfire

    THEN WE WANT WORRY ABOUT A SOCIALIST AGENDA

  • liquidfire

    Do anyone know why the depression started?

  • Randall

    not That JB:

    1. Obama’s healthcare plan is NOT some version of Britain’s National Health. You’re deluded and mistaken.

    But beyond that–what do you SUGGEST for people who are without healthcare? Hmmmmm? Let them swing? I was without healthcare for several months, when I was adjuncting and between regular positions. It was no fun, I assure you. There was no solution except to wait it out and hope for the best. But go ahead smart-ass, tell me that people in such positions should just be allowed to suffer.

    2. Obama is NOT about “taking from the rich to give to the poor.” IN FACT what his tax plan calls for is giving a TAX CUT to the middle class and bringing FAIRNESS back to taxation of the ultra-rich and corporations–who for the LAST EIGHT YEARS have been given break after break and benefit after benefit–and look at our economy now. You have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.

    But I’d love to ask you this question. Are YOU yourself rich? I HIGHLY doubt it. Why so keen, then, to defend people who wouldn’t lift a finger to defend YOUR measely paycheck? Why? Because you’re a deluded conservative idiot who’s bought into the moronic bill of goods you’ve been sold.

    3. Yup, Saul Alinsky was an influence on Obama. On Hillary Clinton too. Do you believe SHE’S a socialist? I’m a New Yorker–she’s been my senator for years now. I’ve seen NO evidence that she’s a socialist or is pushing a socialist agenda. Though perhaps you would find anyone who isn’t a rabid laissez faire capitalist to be a socialist.

    4. And of course the democrat thing is ridiculous. Your argument (it’s barely worth calling it that) falls apart on the flimsy nothingness you presented. I can’t even say “nice try,” JB.

  • Cedestra

    Here’s my prediction on the election, focusing on the polls presented at usatoday.com. It’s still early in the election and, of course, these are just polls, but here’s where I think we will see our interests lie:
    First, forget Florida. It’s no longer contested- they’re all for McCain-Palin. Our battle states to pay strong attention to are Pennsylvania and Ohio. If either candidate wins both, it’s over. The back-up states to look at will be Nevada, Colorado, and New Mexico. I think, at this point, Nevada will go for McCain and Colorado and New Mexico will go for Barack (the polls support this at this time).
    Here’s the nauseating thought: if McCain gets Nevada, Ohio, and Colorado and Obama gets Pennsylvania and New Mexico, we will have a TIE, 269-269. Ugh. My call, at this point in time, though, is 278-260 Obama. (I would have called McCain last week in line with the polls.)

  • Cedestra

    Correction, I had it set incorrectly. 273-265 (Nevada & Ohio to R, Penn, Colo, and NM to D).

  • akelly318

    obama 08 for life!!!!

  • Team

    LMAO @ Randall… You are funny…

  • Oz

    I can only speak for myself, but I AM ready for a black president.

  • Krazy611

    Another 4 years of bush no thanks I’ll Take 4 years of a So Called Inexperienced Leader as You So Call Obama.

  • Jeri

    O-B-A-M-A!!!!

  • Team

    Krazy611, I would much rather have another four years of Bush than a 2nd term of Jimmy Carter…

    The Marxist Obama will be very bad for this country…

  • Randall

    Team:

    You are, quite frankly, an idiot. Unequivocally, without the slightest bit of doubt.

    “The MARXIST Obama?” I see. So he’s a “marxist” now. Sure.

    Stop breaking the prozacs in half, Team. That might help.

    Here we are, facing one of the greatest economic debacles of the last 50+ years… ALL OF WHICH IS THE DOING of Republicans and their over-the-top insistence on a “look-the-other-way, the market will correct itself” philosophy with little or no oversight or regulation… AND WE ARE PAYING THE PRICE FOR IT… and now, WHO IS IT who is calling for near-socialistic buy-outs and controls over that same market? Bush and the Republicans. The hypocrisy is so thick it could only be cut with a meat cleaver and would have to be slow-cooked for hours before you could bite into it.

    “The Marxist Obama.” What is it, Team? You don’t want your ultra rich buddies making over $250,000 a year to pay a few more taxes? Because they’re the only ones who will, under Obama’s plan. The rest of us falling under that threshold get a tax CUT. And if you don’t believe me, just open your goddamn eyes and look around ANYWHERE at any accredited news site which will VERIFY this.

    But I highly doubt you even KNOW anyone making that kind of scratch. Which is the amusing thing—that middle-class or even working class dupes (such as yourself, probably) will ACTUALLY sit here and protest the election of a man who is out to help THEM… they will actually protest him on behalf of the wealthy…. a wealthy class, moreover, who wouldn’t lift a finger to help YOU get YOUR taxes lowered–because they HAVEN’T, EVER, regardless of administration or time period.

    Or could it be, Team, that you don’t like his health care plan? EVEN THOUGH it is, in fact, slightly more conservative than Hillary Clinton’s? Don’t like the idea, perhaps, Team, of people actually being HELPED when they need it, actually being able to have healthcare in the RICHEST NATION ON THE PLANET? When every other civilized, developed nation has SOME kind of health plan for their citizens in need…. but oh no, not the US… that would be “marxist.”

    Sure.

  • Team

    Like I said before randall, you sure are funny if you believe all that…

    Thanks for making my Tuesday enjoyable…

  • Team

    BTW Randall…

    When Barack Obama, a/k/a “The Messiah,” ran for the Illinois state senate in 1996 he sought the endorsement of he New Party and used New Party members as campaign volunteers. In case you don’t know – and you probably don’t – the New Party was a Marxist organization made up largely of former members of the Democratic Socialists of America and ACORN. Vote for him anyway. After all, he’s for change and he’s black. What more could you ask?

  • Team

    And that above was from Neal Boortz…

  • Randall

    Team:

    Okay, *I’M* “funny” because I’m simply reporting the FACTS about Obama… whereas YOU are doing nothing but pulling conspiracy theories out of your ass?

    Oh, but YOU have the “proof” that Obama is secretly a marxist who will bring the country down, don’t you? Never mind that ALL the major news agencies AND the Republican Party–who would drool to get their hands on evidence that Obama was actually some kind of “marxist”—never mind that THEY haven’t heard any of this and aren’t reporting it—because they must be all ignorant dupes, right? Right Team?

    Get out of here, whackjob. And take your ignorant, racist, pinheaded views with you. Do us all a favor and stay away from the polls on election day. It’s because of assholes like you that our democracy grows closer to the precipice of failure every day.

  • Team

    Ah and there is the typical Democrat, resort to name calling and calling someone a racist, ignorant and other various names…

    Maybe you should be the one that needs to stay home on election day…

    You probably think Global Warming is man-made as well, don’t you…

    Oh well… If the Messiah does win, I hope that we don’t become the United Socialists of America, because you can’t get anyone more left than the Messiah… Because taking from the rich and redistributing it to the poor is not the solution to right this ship that the Democratic congress has already put us in…

  • Well, Team just told us another interesting tidbit about himself.
    Besides being racist, he doesn’t believe man has had a hand in global climate change.
    I wonder who left the asylum unlocked the day he got out?

  • Randall

    Team:

    Okay, moron. Sure. The Democratic Congress put us in this mess. Yeah. And your proof of this is where? Where’s the evidence to back up this asinine claim? Or, for that matter, ANY of your asinine claims?

    See, calling you “ignorant” wasn’t an example of “name-calling,” Team. It was quite simply a totally accurate descriptive of what you are.

    I note, parenthetically, that you utterly failed to answer what I had to say in regards to your idiocy about Obama being a “marxist.” You’re also then, clearly, an intellectual coward.

    I, by the way, am not a democrat, asshole. What *you* are is plainly evident, and we can only hope that there are painfully few of you out there in the world.

  • Team

    Jesus I feel like I am talking to torridjoe…

  • Randall, you are wasting your time and energy. I know it’s yours to waste, but this guy will *never* get it, no matter what you say.
    Take a deep breath, step back, and let it go. Some people deserve to drown in their own crap.

  • Randall

    Team:

    I have no idea who “torridjoe” is, but instead of just posting your BS here pell-mell, why don’t you RESPOND to me, and disprove what I’ve said? Why don’t you offer up an argument to support your ridiculous views, instead of just evading and hiding from what I’ve said to you?

    Again, because you’re an intellectual coward.

  • Team

    LOL @ segue…

    I am the one that doesn’t get it and you are the ones that wants the socialist and marxist America…

    Like I would post this about how the Democrats created the financial crisis (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0), but then because it isn’t a link to the liberal media sites (MSNBC, CNN and other crappy news outlets), it wouldn’t be a fact in your walnut size minds…

  • Randall

    segue:

    Oh, I know… but I have no false hopes that this jerk will “get it.” Rather, my intent is to shut him up and show him up for the ignorant bigot that he is.

  • Team

    Good luck in shutting me up… I know the truth and what you are spewing isn’t even close to it…

  • Team

    Maybe eventually I will get bored reading your drivel… But until then, it still just amazes me that anyone would want to be a Democrat…

  • Randall

    Team:

    You’re unbelievable. One skewed, biased op-ed doesn’t make for truth, though no doubt it does in your selective, cherry-picking version of reality. Funny that NO OTHER major media sources have gone on this angle—but of course, yes, “team,” they’re all part of the great “liberal media conspiracy” aren’t they?

    Sure.

    Pathetic.

    At any rate, blaming this ENTIRE DEBACLE on one un-passed law is LAUGHABLE. EVERY major economist I’ve checked out on this ties the current situation to years of Republican insistence on looking the other way, on deregulation and a total lack of oversight. The essence of this mess is greed, greed, and more greed, unchecked and unmanaged.

    You can pick your shadows to hide in, “team,” but hiding from reality and the truth is a foolish thing to do.

    But oh yes… I want a “socialist, marxist America.” Sure.

  • Randall

    team:

    And how old are you, I wonder? I suspect I’m arguing with some thickheaded teenager…

    But I doubt you’d tell the truth in any event.

    But, “team,” if you have so much truth to trumpet, then show evidence. Give proof. Don’t just cherry-pick op-eds… because for every ONE you produce that supports even remotely your trailer park knee-jerk idiocy, I could produce TWENTY that would contradict it.

    INTELLIGENCE, “team,” is being able to recognize when one’s beliefs, however cherished, are failing, and need re-evaluation. Yours have failed. Face up to it like a man and begin some self-examination. Because the person who is so certain of their wisdom, as you are claiming to be, is always the person who knows the least and will be the first to fall flat on his or her face.

  • Mendacity

    Here´s an interesting article from realclearpolitics.com about the race issue in the campaign.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/the_media_play_the_race_card_o.html

    I think it makes some really good points – specifically that there´s a lot more going on in this campaign than race or racism. I´ve commented before in this thread that the if Obama loses, I don´t think it will be a comment on America´s readyness for a black president, I think it will be a comment on Obama himself: his policies and campaign, and also a comment on McCain as well. Racism is a small part of this election.

  • JayBe

    @500. Team:

    http://polaris.moviments.net:8000/

    Has little to do, but I think you should take a look. At least to see how the crisis is seen in other places.

    To recover the topic
    Even Swarzenager was asked for this question. And he answered that had some doubts about it. So I don’t think is that much stupid the question. (You may say he’s not the best indicated to talk about that but at least some of you may had voted for him)

  • IAMSCIENCE

    Alright, there are some real knuckleheads up there…

    Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he would be the first =2 0 Arab-American President, not the first black President. Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs.. Barack Hussein Obama’s father was only 12..5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro). From….and for more….go to…..

    http://www..arcadeathome.com/newsboy.phtml?Barack_Hussein_Obama_-_Arab-American,_only_6..25%_African

    learn the facts and liberals, quit resorting to tempertantrums when facts override your “reasoning”….
    By the way, Bill Clinton is technically MORE black than Obama…seriously, look that one up….

    Lastly, Randall, your a joke brother, grow up and quit with the name calling…your so attached to a “man of change” your not seeing what Obama is all about, 5 billion to the U.N. of taxpayers money!? Get real, this guy is so wrong for America that we should change our name to South Canada…

  • Randall

    iamscience:

    *I’m a joke*? *I’M* a joke? This from a bigoted asshole who actually breaks down someone’s ethnicity to DECIMAL POINTS of percentage—AND clearly to smear Obama as…. *GASP*…. AN ARAB! And ah yes, by such a person I’m told to “grow up.” Uh huh.

    The presumption, also, of lecturing a TOTAL STRANGER on how they’re “so attached to a ‘man of change’…” etc. etc. ad nauseum — meanwhile, you haven’t a REAL clue as to why I support Obama, nor how I am, in fact, the farthest you can get from a blindly credulous voter.

    You’re not even worth the argument on this. The very idea of bringing up some imaginary “5 billion dollars” is laughable when the country, at the behest of a Repubican administration, is now facing the necessity of pumping NEARLY A TRILLION into a failed economy.

    You’re simply a wretched, repugnant voice of emptiness, “iamscience.”

  • IAMSCIENCE

    …point proven, thanks for that Randall. Maybe time to change your diapers. I can see you now just so angry, so driven to hate, congratulations boss….
    His ethnecity is broken down there bigshot, cause thats what the article is about, Obama isnt really all that black. It wouldnt matter that much if people were more informed or perhaps OPEN to being more informed.

    As expected, and stated, liberals love to pass judgement on people who dont buy agree with them, i love America!

    In the end, you contradicted yourself and did in fact waste your time on the argument, and will after this post as well.
    See you then….

  • Randall

    iamscience:

    The funny thing is, “iamscience” (and again, do change the name—it’s offensively absurd for a creationist to even hint that they have something to do with science) that regardless of my use of insults (insults which, by the way, you sorely deserve) I still come off as well-spoken, erudite, and coherent. Whereas you come off as shrill, moronic, clumsy and illiterate, what with your poorly-constructed sentences (and thoughts), lack of punctuation, and poor spelling. Image is everything, “iamscience,” particularly in your use of the language, and particularly when your words are all that’s speaking for you. *You,* thereby, come off sounding like an inbred hill-grazer.

    Moreover, the pathetic use of a piss-poor shot like “time to change your diapers” is a clear indication that you’re A) not at all creative or inventive, and very likely quite thick in the head B) not at all funny or witty and C) quite lacking in taste, as anyone *with* taste would recognize that the use of wheezy old cliches of this nature (“time to change your diapers”) would compromise their standing severely with outside observers.

    In short, you’re an uncouth mouth-breather who can’t even cough up a decent jibe, let alone a coherent, persuasive argument.

    Now then… there was no “point proven” beyond the point that you are exactly as I’ve described you here. I am, yes, quite fed up with having to deal with moronic idiots such as yourself who A) oppose the candidacy of Obama for nonsensical, fictional reasons (most likely hiding racist and bigoted motivations, in fact) and B) attempt to undermine (on another thread) science by attacking (pathetically and ineffectively) evolution. It’s clear to anyone with a brain what you are, “iamscience,” so I feel no need to further justify myself. I have no patience with your kind and see no reason to indulge in said patience.

    Again—it wasn’t the question of Obama’s ethnicity (the proper spelling of the word, by the way) that was the salient issue here, “iamscience.” It was your absurd and offensive precise little breakdown of it, to the decimal point. It quite simply made you sound the dull-witted redneck that you apparently are.

    It’s also amusing (and amusingly incorrect) how you automatically assume I am a liberal. While I’m sure it would please your pinheaded, bigoted mind to so pigeonhole me, I can assure you that you have failed miserably. No, I am not a conservative Republican—though I once was. But neither am I a liberal.

    What YOU are is all too evident.

    I’d be interested to see how, in your convoluted, twisted mind, you felt I “contradicted myself.” Of course I did not, in the least, but it might offer me further amusement to hear your reasoning behind this. It certainly might afford amusement to others looking in who can recognize you for the dogmatic fool that you are. It’s always fun to watch big-mouths fall flat on their faces.

  • IAMSCIENCE

    …”It’s always fun to watch big-mouths fall flat on their faces.”

    Me too, thnaks for the show brother.

    Now, this is about a misconception and a huge one. I spent almost 9 years in college and work in D.C. (Northern Virginia) as an Astronomer. So here is what you presuppose to know about me…and cut on me for (thanks for helping me with my grammar, my wife does the same too – big help)

    1. “you come off as shrill, moronic, clumsy and illiterate, what with your poorly-constructed sentences (and thoughts), lack of punctuation, and poor spelling”
    2. “You,* thereby, come off sounding like an inbred hill-grazer”
    3. “not at all creative or inventive, and very likely quite thick in the head”
    4. “quite lacking in taste”
    5. “not at all funny or witty”
    6. “uncouth mouth-breather who can’t even cough up a decent jibe, let alone a coherent, persuasive argument.”
    7. “moronic idiots such as yourself”
    8. “hiding racist and bigoted motivations”
    9. “dull-witted redneck that you apparently are”
    10. “pinheaded, bigoted mind”
    11. “convoluted, twisted mind”
    12. “dogmatic fool”

    So, im guessing your an english major? If thats the case, i guess you get an A for proper grammer and spelling, but come on brother, look at your mass of assumptions, its really quite scary, but I would expect no less, lol. Again, the issue is about if America is ready for a black president, I asserted, with fact, he’s really not all that black. I, also, am not going to vote for a guy based on his color as this article also assumes.

    So as you flail about and scream and stomp your feet and just get angry at opposing views (and since your at it, scientific inaccuracies) I hope you have a good weekend. I really get worried sometimes about the state of people’s fortune telling gifts (because after reading statements 1-12, your a regular Miss Cleo). Remember, when you dish out talk like this, which is also so inaccurate and so widly manic, you should be able to calmly explain your ideas and opinions. I figured since your demanding so much from me at the least I can recommend for you is to just chill a bit.
    Look your not going to change anyones mind with rethoric like your multiple rants above and sure your a regular Spelling Bee champion, this isnt an acedemic journal, who cares if im spelling “ethnicity” right or wrong, your picking apart things of no consequence, but if thats your angle, then so be it.

    “insults which, by the way, you sorely deserve”

  • Randall

    “iamscience”

    See my posts directed at you over in the creationist thread. I do not for a moment believe that you are actually an astronomer–but if by some bizarre chance you really are one, then you should be ashamed of yourself and of the piss-poor education you received.

    Which was from where, I wonder? Liberty University perhaps?

    And stop calling me “brother,” asshole.

    The old trick you’re using now, of feigning reason and rationality when earlier you were called out on your bigotry, again falls flat.

    The mere fact that you have completely misread this point of this thread (it is NOT that anyone will or should vote for Obama BECAUSE he is black) indicates that you simply aren’t that savvy or intelligent an individual, which is further supported by your left-handed invectives about “scientific inaccuracies” and the like. Further, yeah, “iamscience,” I wouldn’t expect some average shmoe to bother with grammar, spelling, and proper sentence structure—though it would always behoove them to do so—but again, I KNOW *real* scholars and scientists of several different disciplines, and they INVARIABLY express themselves much more professionally and thoughtfully than you have, either here or in the creationist thread.

    If you really WERE in college for nine years, then I submit to you that you greatly wasted your money.

  • Team

    Jesus Christ Randall, you really are just an angry bitter individual aren’t you…

  • Randall

    Team:

    Angry that I have to deal with monumental stupidity; bitter that people such as you never learn, and that I and my family, children, and friends are forced to suffer the consequences when people like you get your way in this world.

  • Chickensoup

    Does it really matter what colour Obama’s skin is? The point is that if he doesn’t get elected then there’s like a 1 in 3 chance we’re going to end up with President “Violent Lunatic” Palin within the next 5 years. Who wants that?

  • IAMSCIENCE, you obviously get all of your information from that font of knowledge, Rush “I am an IDIOT” Limbaugh.
    Omaba’s father was Kenyan. Black, native Kenyan. NOT Arab. If his father were Arab, it wouldn’t make a whit’s worth of difference, but he wasn’t.
    Maybe *your* father was intelligent. That didn’t matter, either, did it?

  • rushfan

    Segue ~ As a loyal listener to Rush Limbaugh, I can assure you are misinformed. Might I recommend you listen to the show at least once before you make such a rediculous statement. Can I ask what are you basing that statement on anyway? He doesn’t speak of Obama’s ethnic background, trust me, there are plenty of legitimate policy issues to discuss about Obama without having to resort to such inanity.

  • rushfan, I actually regretted posting that as soon as I did. It was the idiot who posted I was angry at, not Mr. Limbaugh, whom I have listened to.
    My apologies.

  • rushfan

    Segue ~ Thanks for that. :) There is just so much hostility towards Rush that I think is misguided, and I didn’t take you for one of those people. Trust me, I’m not a fan of IAMSCIENCE either.

  • IAMSCIENCE

    …yeesh, talk about hostility. I’m guessing you folks are asking for a concession?
    @segue, I apologize for having these facts straight. Now your right about the Kenyan connection, i didn’t dispute that (or get into what his cousins do and have did there, but that’s for another gladiator event), but your just going to have to bear with me and read the entire post. Follow the link. If not, its no skin off my back, though with all the insane anger here and the assuming and speculation…and name calling, i guess that can be taken figuratively. And I appreciate you joining the ranks of Randall and calling me names. Furthermore, when you get into honestly calling people who you dont agree with’s parents (father in my case) names, it speaks a good deal about where and whom you direct your “anger” or “hostility” at. But, see, watch this, I’m not going to call your parents anything, but, assuming I had, the wrath of Randall and his crew would swell up and accuse me of resorting to these tactics because I would obviously be, “losing” was it? so I would be the bad guy and the evil registered Independent that I am, how dare I right?

    @ rushfan, sorry to lose your loyal following, I guess I started with a fan and lost it all in once ((laugh))

    @ Randall, …”Angry that I have to deal with monumental stupidity; bitter that people such as you never learn, and that I and my family, children, and friends are forced to suffer the consequences when people like you get your way in this world.”
    Agreed, in general terms though, I mean, no point in getting angry however, I’m glad to be in America, a place where you have obviously mastered the English language with such finesse and lean how to be an impeccable speller all the while calling people liars, (insert the 3 cuss words used above and elsewhere towards me here), bigots, red-necks, so on and etc, etc and blah blah blah whine cry, boo hoo….dude seriously, you can point and blame and cry and be the freaking victim here, but your a dime-a-dozen, down on his luck, better than the rest, everyday man. I seriously can’t be angry or mad or upset with you…brother…because truly, I feel for you, i truly do. And I really mean this man, good luck in whatever you do….

  • liquidfire

    DO IT MEAN YOU ARE ANGRY, BECAUSE YOU DEFINE THINGS AS THEY ARE. OR BECAUSE THINGS ISN’T DEFINE AS YOU SEE.HMMMMMMMM

  • Team

    @Randall… You procreated? God help us all…

    @Chickensoup… No it doesn’t matter what the color of his skin is, but what does matter is his policies that would be bad for this country… I don’t care if he is black, white, pink, orange or any other color of the rainbow…

  • Chickensoup

    IAMSCIENCE: “i didn’t dispute that (or get into what his cousins do and have did there, but that’s for another gladiator event)”

    George W Bush’s grandfather got rich by trading with the Nazis during the Second World War. No-one seems particularly bothered by that, because the actions of his relatives have little to do with him.

    Team – I agree with you. At the same time, I believe that another factor that should be taken into account is the issue about policies that would be bad for the world. I think that McCain and Palin being elected over Obama and Biden would be bad both for America and for the world at large.

  • IAMSCIENCE

    Well….

    Obama’s cousin in Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya; It is the first widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. In fact his half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga’s follower. Obama interrupted his New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on the phone.

    Obama’s cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers had burned Christians’ homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a Christian church where they took shelter.. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. like it or not,
    But I like the bush nazi connection as well, nice, just a bit farther removed. This has a bit more to do with Obama than Bush’s grandfather trading with some nazi’s…but pick and choose huh?

    Lastly, this is the U.S. elections Chickensoup, not the world elections. Countries worldwide dont consult us on who they elect and vote for and nor should we? So, no this factor does not need to be taken into consideration…at all.

    As i mentioned before, I am a registered independent, I had been doing alot of searching to see who at the base would be the best for America, and seriously, after some of the absurd assertions and speculations and matter-of-fact statements, frankly, I can’t vote for a guy who’s supporters seem to mirror some of the crap seen above. I’m scarred – but for the sake of America, I hope this isnt a close race.

  • 525. IAMSCIENCE.
    I had cousins running, still running, illegal moonshine stills in Tennessee.
    Great-Uncles who took part in a historic massacre in Australia.
    Ancestors who fought on both sides of the Revolutionary War.
    500 ancestors who fought for the Confederacy, and 250 for the Union.
    An uncle who worked for an off-track bookie.
    Maternal ancestors who were transported to Australia from Ireland by the British, not as a “thank you gift” for good behavior.
    Should you be afraid of me?
    Should you be afraid of my ability to do any job for which I have the qualifications, based on the actions of my relations?
    If your answer is yes, you need a reality check.

  • Cedestra

    Irregardless of who wins, I would just like to say how refreshing it was to see two candidates who could piece together an argument and never created their own adjectives? Neither of them were perfect, by any means, but it was comforting to know that the next president will have some means of intelligence and public speaking.

  • liquidfire

    just a thought….the whole iraq thing. now let me get this right now, one of the reason saddam hussein was executed was because he killed lots of people right. i’m not going into detail on this, but i know you know the facts behind this. what if there was a law that said everyone who participated in the lynchings of the south doing the civl rights movement be bought to justice. now i wonder if those good old rebulicans are hung just like saddam hussein just what precentage of those votes will be in to south and i’m sure you know the precantage since some of you have broken obama race down to the science. anyway alot of you want be taking that trip to see old grandma, and grandpa in the south. lmao.

  • Randall

    iamscience:

    You get called names because you are, quite simply, an ass who deserves it. Again, raking up all this nonsense about Obama’s apparent muslim “connections”—and that’s not supposed to be transparent fear-mongering and racism, is it? Noooooooo… of course not!

    All this bullshit about Obama’s “cousins”—and what you trying to tell us, “iamscience”? Hmmmm? Why not out with it, instead of the implications?

    A) I haven’t found any definitive proof that these guys ARE even related to Obama…. but…
    B) So what if they are? What is meant by “cousin?” I have “cousins” in England, Calabria (Italy) and Greece that I’ve never seen or talked to. I know they exist, but that’s it. Jesus Christ, I haven’t even seen or talked to many of my cousins here in the States—I couldn’t even tell you all of their names. My situation is of course the norm, not unique.
    C) How CAN Obama then be held responsible for or even said to be in sympathy with these “cousins”? Answer? HE CAN’T.
    D) Any normal person would know this… so your point? Clearly you’re trying to smear Obama with veiled hints and innuendo. Yeah… you’re a class act, “iamscience.” Right up there with the morons in white robes and hoods.

    And you expect to be lent legitimacy in this, and not be insulted because of it?

    Which brings us to your incessant whining about MY treatment of you since you showed up here:

    “all the while calling people liars, (insert the 3 cuss words used above and elsewhere towards me here), bigots, red-necks, so on and etc, etc and blah blah blah whine cry, boo hoo…”

    The irony, of course, is that you repeatedly complain about how I’ve addressed you here—rather than simply taking it like a man and answering me back with some kind of logical argument… which both here and over at the Creationist thread you have UTTERLY FAILED TO DO. Of course this is to be expected; you have nothing to say. You’re simply an uninformed, ignorant bigot who thinks his ravings about Obama should be listened to. Meanwhile NOT ONE legitimate news source on either the right or the left is seriously reporting this bullshit about Obama that you’re peddling… and why? Because it’s a non-story. It’s simply character assassination by association, with a thin film of racism on it.

    “dude seriously, you can point and blame and cry and be the freaking victim here,”

    Laughably ironic coming from you. *I* played the victim? How so? YOU have played victim since you showed up here, repeatedly crying over being insulted and mocked, without once offering anything reasonable or logical for anyone to listen to beyond your nonsensical bullshit.

    “but your a dime-a-dozen, down on his luck, better than the rest, everyday man.”

    Funny. And bizarre. Was that some misquote from a bad song, perhaps? Because I can’t make heads or tails of it otherwise. I’m down on my luck? Hardly. I have a nice position at a major university (and not whatever back-of-matchbook institution YOU attended, if you in fact ever really did attend) make a nice living, have a nice career going, lots of great friends and beautiful, smart kids, and so on…. if that’s “down on my luck,” I’ll take it, pinhead.

    And “better than the rest, everyday man”? Smoking something perhaps, “iamscience?”

    Again, your incoherent babbling belies your claim that you are an astronomer/scientist. I don’t believe it for a moment. As I pointed out here and elsewhere–you don’t talk like one, you don’t address others like one, you don’t comport yourself like one. Not in the least. And no one with a proper education in science would believe the crap you believe NOR would they make the mistakes you’ve made.

    “I seriously can’t be angry or mad or upset with you…brother…”

    And I repeat. Don’t call me “brother.” It’s sickening.

    “because truly, I feel for you, i truly do. And I really mean this man, good luck in whatever you do…”

    Spare me.

    What I wish for you is that you wake up out of your ignorance and bigotry, so that you can become a proper citizen of this country. Because right now you’re just part of the problem.

  • joebecca

    it should never matter what color he is, only if he has the country’s best interests at heart and can be a good leader.

    I think it’s ridiculous that people get on this thing and just sit on their high horses and start arguements with people over the stupidest stuff.

    that’s why they’re called “OPINIONS” because everyone is entitled to have one. Jeez.

  • willie

    It is irresponsible to think that a Negro can run the USA. Case closed.

  • nina_beretta

    First of all he’s only half black. I wish the liberal media would stop portraying him as a underdog minority. Hes half caucasian with an million or 2 (0r 3) in the bank with a Harvard education. He wouldnt give two shits about anybody if it meant him losing the race. I really resent the fact that minorites are voting for him because he’s of ‘color.’ Im mexican and Im not voting for him because either way, we’re screwed. Politicians are going to say whatever they want to say JUST TO GET INTO OFFICE! Does anybody really think anythings gonna change dramatically because someone of ‘color’ is president? FUCK NO. It doesnt matter whose in power people the lower class and middle lower class is FUCKED either way.

  • 532. nina_beretta: I rarely discourage anyone from voting, but I’ll make an exception in your case.
    It’s exactly the low-information voter, like you, who tends to make poor decisions in the voting booth. What you need to do, nina_beretta, is get some *FACTS*, not just the dribble that’s being handed out by the ultra-right wing, Fox News, and the trash rags.
    Information, nina_beretta, information!
    Not knee-jerk reactionism based on lies and innuendos.

    mutter-mutter-mutter

    Just do everyone a favor and stay home on November 4.

  • …and, btw, I subsist on disability, so I’m not exactly from the upper-class here.

  • nina_beretta

    im not from the upper class either, “segue,” perhaps you shouldnt be so quick to judge who has or hasnt any information on what or who. I dont know you or your situation but I bet Obama or McCain dont give a shit. How about you, “segue” do everyone a favor and let everyone have an opinion without jumping outta your wheelchair or hopping off your cane or walker and stommping on people whose opinoins or views dont match your own. Kisses!

  • Jordan

    What kind of a question is that? It makes absolutely no difference what color a persons skin is.

  • Hemza3000

    Jordan, I don’t think he means what you think he means. He doesn’t mean the presidency, he means America. I know it doesn’t matter that he’s black but there’s alot of folks out there who think it does matter what color skin he is and that’s what the question is essentially about.

  • nina_beretta, you still don’t get it.
    I couldn’t care less what your opinion is. The bottom line is that your opinion is based on a lack of knowledge, rather than on a compilation of knowledge. I can, and do, honor opinions different from my own as long as those opinions are based on actual fact, not on manicure shop gossip and National Enquirer type trash rags.
    I can tell from your writing that you’re quite young. I should cut you some slack for your age, and I will, but you really need to learn that not every person in the world is out to get you. Not everyone is your personal enemy.
    One of the people I like best on this site, rushfan, is politically about 180 degrees opposite of me, but she and I both base our opinions on facts, and so we can both respect, and even support each other’s opinions! Actually, it’s not 180, it’s probably 90 degrees. I think we agree on a lot, but we disagree, too. The thing is, I know she always has absolute facts, real knowledge, to back-up her opinion. And I’m pretty sure she feels the same way about me.
    You seem to make a big deal about my nick, to be uncomfortable with it.
    Why?
    Nearly everyone has one, and most people choose theirs for a reason. I chose mine for a reason.
    Do you know what it means?
    I’m using it as a metaphor for my life.

  • astraya

    segue: I’d often wondered about your nickname. In classical music, it is used to mean “keep going” (ie from the end of one movement to the start of the next). Maybe that’s what you’re referring to.

  • astraya: You get the gold star! I chose the name to remind me that whatever life throws at me, and goodness knows its thrown everything but the kitchen sink, to keep on going, smoothly, without missing a beat.

  • nina_beretta

    okay okay…geeeeez i was just posting my opinoin like everyone else on here, im sorry if my views dont sit well with anyone else, but since everyone left their 2 cents on the sub i wanted too. “segue,” Im appreciate your commentary…no hard feelings…just wondering…how come you havent given anyone your 3 cents…?

  • Randall

    nina_beretta:

    The point is, Nina.. DON’T post your opinion if it’s not BASED on anything—because then it isn’t really “opinion” at all, it’s just non-sensical blather.

    In future, resist the temptation to share your thoughts until you’ve done the work to ensure that they have some intellectual support and logical reasoning as a foundation. Yours didn’t.

  • 541. nina_beretta, I did post my opinion about five hundred posts ago.

  • Cyn

    whoa…chill out people. its just the internet. seriously…re read the FAQ. consider where you are. the intent of this site. and who you are ‘preaching’ to…
    or is this all just self indulgent chest pounding, eh?
    *insert rollz eyes smilie here*
    step away from the computer for a bit…..

  • Cedestra

    535. nina_beretta: Wow, I can understand that you are retarded and classless and may even be old enough to vote (fingers crossed on that one), but you need to leave. Seriously, I have not tolerance for bitches who say shit like that about people who frequent this site and has put forth nothing but a great image.

  • ghostmike

    As a black man if you asked me this question a year ago I would have said hell no.

    On the other hand Bush as boned this nation so hard Americans are willing to give ANYTHING that is not Republican a chance.

  • Lee

    No. Nor do we need to sully the democratic system and elect a person based mainly on their race, as will be the case should Obama be elected. This country is not ready yet to decide based solely on qualifications.

  • YogiBarrister

    Fortunately for the entire world, Lee #547, is a failed species of Americanus Douchebagus, soon to be extinct.

  • 545. Cedestra, thank you.

  • Chewbacca

    Glllleeee hhheee ooonnng!

  • Nauplius

    #531 willie please do us all a favor and kill yourself now you racist piece of shit.

  • Anyone watch McCain call us “My fellow prisoners” on Wednesday?

  • Cedestra

    549. segue: No problem. She actually made me ill from the statements about your condition. I may not have, but you handled yourself with class. :)

  • rushfan

    Segue ~ I just read your kind comment regarding our differences of opinion. I feel the same way about you. :) You are someone whose opinion I respect and whose life experiences I can appreciate. I must say, however, that the vibe from others who disagree with me politically can be quite dismissive and downright hateful. It accomplishes nothing to be partisan and close-minded and I am someone who thrives on political discussions but they’re hard to have online. Just because someone is slightly more eloquent in their commentary does not mean they are smarter or more informed or that their opinion is somehow more valid. Just because it’s unpopular to be a conservative on this site, I shouldn’t have to be afraid to voice my opinion because I’m in the minority.

  • rushfan, you should never have to be afraid to voice your opinion here, or anywhere. I understand your statement about the “vibe” though, and can understand the gag it might (metaphorically) place on your posts.
    Don’t allow that to happen. It’s criminal.

  • rushfan: you are right – and I would hope that all people here (in particular regulars which I think is probably the case already) would be gracious enough to allow all points of view to be espoused! I for one love it :)

  • Cedestra

    554: You could be the Elizabeth Hasselback of listverse! Just kidding…that’s getting downright ugly. We have a good group of regulars that form good opinions and, for the most part, are well behaved. I consider anyone else to be trolls that deserve nothing more than a quick kick in the box.
    You and I wouldn’t agree politically, but if you read a note on another list, I had said we were missing your opinion on this list. I think Anon or segue or someone else had pointed out that you were missing.

  • girlymac

    NO WAY IN H/E/L/L AM I OR ANYONE IN OUR FAMILY EVER VOTING FOR A BLACK MAN OR EVEN A HISPANIC. CAN YOU SAY REVERSE DISCRIMINATION? IT’S RUNS RAMPANT IN THEIR SOCIETY. I don’t care if I’m labeled a racist biggot. This is how I feel & I will not make apologies for my feelings. I just wonder how many others feel this way, but will never admit it until it’s time to ‘VOTE’? I pray that OBAMA NEVER gets his wish, because that means bad days ahead for all white people & hispanics as well.

  • girlymac

    #547 Lee? Just because your not a regular here doesn’t mean your opinion should be considered wrong. YOU ARE ENTITLED to YOUR OPINION. Hang in there.
    Not a Regular, TG

  • Spiffy

    girly, I’m just wondering what makes you think that bad days will be ahead for us?

    I believe I am ready for a minority president, as are many others.

  • I think I’m seeing something of an over reaction here, and I’d bet it has very little to do with race. It’s interesting. No one can be that angry out of the blue, and that it’s misdirected anger is practically in neon lights.
    Makes one wonder.

  • MT

    OBAMA IN ’08!!!!!!

  • MT

    OBAMA AND BIDEN IN ’08!!!!!!

  • girlymac

    Hey, let’s all cool down. I didn’t mean to upset your regulars’ applecart! I also need to mention
    *****JOHN MCCAIN & SARAH PALIN IN ’08***********YAHOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Oh, Yeah & LET’S ALL HELP SARAH PALIN IN 2012!!!!! lol!

  • MT, I am going to tell you this because I like you (also, I agree with you).
    The more exclamation marks one uses, the less powerful the statement.
    Multiple exclamation marks are the sure sign of a diseased mind.

  • MT

    565. segue

    I don’t understand the connection. But then again, if my mind is diseased then I guess I wouldn’t. How do you feel about all caps?

    !!!OBAMA IN “08!!!!

  • Randall

    girlymac:

    Your doddering, confused, erratic old man and his brain-dead MILF of a running mate are going to lose and lose big in a month. And after that, idiots like you with your racist garbage will be further marginalized, as you so richly deserve.

  • girlymac

    AGAIN, I say let’s just wait & see..You think he’s got it in the bag. Key word being, THINK!

  • Randall

    girlymac:

    Yes, girly… key word being *I* THINK. YOU don’t.

  • girlymac

    How nice to see LIBERALS left & right using their same tactics. No substance & if they can think of nothing else they go for the usual jugular. Insult the person they are speaking to. I mean to say that YOUR way is to flip off someone as YOU WALK AWAY! I’ve got no sadness in my heart when you ALL insult me. I just feel sympathy for all of your anger. I have only spoken/written my OPINION, yet you guys still insult…:-) lol!

  • Randall

    girlymac:

    No, girly… the fact simply is that you’re not worth the trouble. PLENTY of substance has been given on this thread in support of Obama. You’re invited to read through the comment list. But in any event, YOU have not given one iota of substance, yourself, with which to work with. All you did was pop up here, make a very brief (thankfully) racist tirade, and then you’ve popped back up with repeated one-liners that SAY NOTHING. Your only “opinion” amounted to racist garbage, and your statements since then have amounted to EXACLY ZIP.

    So to repeat–you’re not worth the time or trouble. If you had something substantive or intelligent to say, you’d have said it by now—AND you wouldn’t have said what little you already HAVE said.

    Simple as that.

  • 566. MT : The “diseased mind” part is part of a joke, which obviously doesn’t work online without benefit of facial cues and voice inflection. Too bad. It’s really quite funny.
    Use all the exclamation marks you want, MT, we all support Obama, and you may use my exclamation marks whenever I’m not using them myself.
    K?

  • girlymac

    Boo-Hoo! Mr. Randall thinks I’m a one liner..I only came onto this stupid ass site to f*uck with you IGNORANT ASSED LIBERALS! This was FUN, while it lasted!!
    Get jobs and a Life Jerks! hahahaha, Boo-Hoo!

  • SlickWilly

    “Boo-Hoo! Mr. Randall thinks I’m a one liner..I only came onto this stupid ass site to f*uck with you IGNORANT ASSED LIBERALS! This was FUN, while it lasted!!
    Get jobs and a Life Jerks! hahahaha, Boo-Hoo!”

    The classic response of someone with too much space between their brain and skull casing. When someone calls you on being a douchenozzle, you pretend that is what you wanted everyone to think. Well, I have to say this, girlymac: you succeeded. We all think you are a douchenozzle. Congrats. Now get lost.

  • SlickWilly

    Why doesn’t anyone care that Palin violated Alaska *ETHICS* laws? Shouldn’t this send up some red flags about her character? Or McCain’s judgement?? I would have expected the liberal media to be pounding this into the ground.

  • MT

    .572 Segue

    I’m just messin’ with you S. My humor is a little dry in person and online it appeals to an even smaller audience.

    Randall,
    With idiots like girlyman on “their” side we can’t lose.

    OBAMA/BIDEN IN ’08!!!!!

  • MT: Glad to know that.
    See, though, in person, we would have been laughing our respective asses off. I’ll be sooooooooo glad when *everyone* is hooked up visually. My computer has a built-in camera (video & photo), but the next person has to have the same system…I want universal access!

  • Oh yes, and, OBAMA 08!

  • Randall

    girlymac:

    “Mr. Randall thinks I’m a one liner..”

    A) No, I said your POSTS had amounted to little more than one-liners. You seem to have a poor grasp of the English language, girly. Were you perhaps a high school dropout?

    “I only came onto this stupid ass site”

    B) Well, to come onto a “stupid ass site” to waste one’s time repeatedly seems to me to be a uniquely “stupid ass” thing to do. I could think of a number of better ways of spending my time. Do you want help with that? Let’s see… what would some moron like you enjoy? Nascar perhaps? Isn’t that on?

    “to f*uck with you”

    C) Truly, only a clumsy idiot would attempt to type out the “truncated/censored” version of “fuck” and end up typing “f*uck.” Very good.

    “IGNORANT ASSED LIBERALS! This was FUN, while it lasted!!”

    D) Your sense of “fun” is, to say the least, infantile. Hmm. Nascar must NOT have been on.

    “Get jobs and a Life Jerks! hahahaha, Boo-Hoo!”

    E) Got both, thanks! And yours is… working the fryer at Arby’s, probably? Yes, probably.

  • Callie

    I haven’t popped into this one in awhile, but I needed to come and say that Randall, MT and Segue:

    Though it’s difficult for me, I can respect your opinions. A large part of this is looking at my candidate and party and realizing the shortcomings of both, yet I still support them because I don’t agree a whit with the other party- and thats values and running this country well, not race- believes in. Please don’t let idiots like girlymac speak for conservatives everywhere. I know you guys are smart enough not to, but that needs to be said.

  • Callie

    add Iamscience to above..I don’t really want him on my side either.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…It’s hard being a young republican. I’m proud of it though :)

  • rushfan

    I’m with Callie. Most of us are capable of exchanging ideas without insults.

  • Randall

    Callie and Rushfan:

    But you see, both of you—this is another reason why I left the Republican party and walked away from conservatism (there were of course many other reasons as well). I one day discovered that people like us (if you don’t mind being lumped in with the then-conservative Randall from the 80s) were in a shrunken minority in the “movement,” and that it had fallen to mostly thugs (like, I’m sorry to say, Rush, your beloved Limbaugh–whom I used to in fact *kind of* like and listen to, way way back when, though I never fully got behind him–but also, more to the point, people like the wretched Sean Hannity and his ilk) and various kinds of liars, distorters, and… sorry, but yes… rednecks. It became too populist for me. I went into conservatism because of Barry Goldwater, William F. Buckley, and Ronald Reagan. I had more in common with someone like George Will, therefore, than someone like the godawful Hannity or Sam Brownback or Mike Huckabee, etc. etc. etc. The latter types dominate the party today. And it isn’t the kind of conservatism, I feel, that Goldwater would have cottoned to. He’d be wiping the floor with most of these guys if he was still around today, I think.

    For me this began with Newt Gingrich. That’s when I started to feel a sick feeling in the pit of me somewhere. I never liked him and never believed for a moment that he was of the caliber of a Goldwater or a Reagan. And then a swamp of Gingrich’s were suddenly everywhere, and that, along with other changing ideas I was having, made me walk away from these beliefs and this philosophy for good.

    You see, you two weren’t there. You grew up knowing ONLY the post-Gingrich conservatism, and I simply, and frankly, can’t see how anyone can get behind that intellectually—REALLY intellectually—and really believe that this is for the good. I still believe that Barry Goldwater was an honest man to the core who tempered his views when he saw times were changing—he could adapt—and he had true libertarian-ish views on what conservatism was, as did Reagan. And I believe Reagan meant to do great good, and it seemed wonderful at the time even though, years later, it ended up leaving a bad taste in the mouth. But Reagan himself I believed to have a kind of honesty and integrity of the same variety as Goldwater. Buckley, of course, was Buckley. But he too tempered his views when needed, and of course he was the intellectual center of that entire movement. There were others of course… but for me the whole point was, I believed in getting things done and getting things changed—it was a “radical” conservatism in the sense that, it was meant to turn society around and make things better for everyone. I wanted to see poverty and injustice addressed and if possible wiped out–or at least as close to that as we could reasonably get. And I wanted America to be a force for good in the world. We’d been led to believe, growing up, us Gen Xers, that the Left of the Sixties had fucked all this up and made things mostly worse. Some of this–maybe most of it–was true, but some of it wasn’t. But I wanted to have a break with it, nevertheless… new times, I felt, demanded a new kind of voice, a new philosophy. And it seemed like that was what conservatism could be, for a time.

    But then it faltered, I feel. It went south. It fell into the hands of thugs like Gingrich and his army of followers, who were worse and worse each passing year, until even Gingrich was made to look almost like Goldwater. And today, it’s in the hands–largely–of people like this girlymac. For the most part, yes.

    It’s a new century, and the world has changed hugely. I’m sorry, but I really feel that conservatism has become less and less relevant. Liberalism is really gone too. The old liberalism. It doesn’t really exist anymore–not in numbers. What’s replaced the real conservatism, to me, is a kind of right-wing populism. And that’s not what conservatism was meant to be, I feel. And on the left, the old radicalism has long been discredited.

    But it’s not the 20th century anymore. The Cold War is over, we’re in an economic debacle which can largely be placed at the feet of Republican philosophy, and we’re in need of a new vision. I’m sorry ladies, but McCain just isn’t it. I liked him once upon a time. I still feel he’s at heart a good man… but he never was presidential, even when he was younger. And certainly the party he represents has gone bankrupt on us, in terms of ideas.

    I miss the 80s sometimes and those days of idealistic conservatism—but I’m sorry to say, in my book it just didn’t work in the long run. Just as 60s liberalism didn’t work in the long run. They’re both played out.

  • 580. Callie: I’m sure rushfan has already figured this one out, but I’m a conservative, not a Democrat or a liberal (neither small or capital L). In this particular race, I just have more confidence in the Obama ticket than I do in the McCain ticket.

  • Callie

    Randall:

    A fair enough argument and I will only counter with this:

    Young people are stupid.

    Yep. I graduated from college a year and a half ago, and as a general rule (there are exceptions, of course), most of my peers were liberals. Unfortunately, they weren’t well informed liberals, or for that matter informed at all. The following is a true account with a friend I’ll call M, a tragically uninformed “democrat”

    C: Dick Cheney shot someone in the face today.
    M: Dick Cheney?
    C: (thinking she didn’t hear me) Yeah…Dick Cheney shot one of his hunting buddies.
    M: I think I’ve hard of him. What show is he on again?

    I wish I was making that up.

    The point is that I consider myself well-informed. I grew up with two very smart parents who stressed the point of a good education. In the interest of full disclosure, I did grow up with a die hard Republican dad and a middle of the road Democrat mom. When I went off to college, I wanted the chance to debate politics- smartly. I wound up surrounded by a bunch of kids who couldn’t name the VP and whose biggest issue was legalizing pot. Seriously. I’ve only been eligible to vote in one election, so I can’t say I’ll be voting along the same party lines my whole life. I just want to be better than the “I like weed and doing things without rules” mentality that liberals my age have, because someone my age will run for president in 20 years, and that scares me.

    With that, I have put in an our and a half of overtime, and I don’t even get overtime. I’m going home.

  • I think Randall has pretty much summed up my feelings, as well, the only difference is that I went from being a big C Conservative to a small c conservative, for all of the reasons Randall outlined.
    I played with radicalism in the late 60’s (you know, the whole Vietnam thing. My first boyfriend was drafted and killed within days of arriving in country, so I had something of a bad attitude about it), but by the early 70’s I was caught by William F. Buckley and there was no looking back until GWB.

  • astraya

    Can some American(s) please answer this for me: Is anyone seriously going to vote for Obama just because he is “black”? Is anyone seriously NOT going to vote for him ditto? Is this an issue? Is this THE issue?

  • Renegade

    Well see, here’s the problem. There are plenty of Americans that WILL vote for Obama because he’s black. Most of them are young adults, just out of high school, who don’t particularly care about knowing the issues and just pick the candidate for whatever stupid reason, like him being black. Unfortunately that happens when everyone has the right to vote. Some take advantage of it and stop caring about what may or may not happen.

    Disclaimer-I did not mean ALL young adults were like this. I meant that most people who are most often young adults who are fresh out of high school and still high on themselves from being seniors.

  • Renegade

    After all, we’re America and we’re possibly the most mixed up nation in the world. We’ll level entire cities and then turn around and send money for relief right afterwards lol.

  • MT

    A LOT of people will vote for a candidate because of his race and a LOT of people will not vote for him for the same reason. The same attitude would be true for a woman, Jew, Hispanic, etc. We’ve all seen the clip of the woman at the McCain rally that stood up and said she wouldn’t vote for Obama because he’s an Arab. Even Mccain had to correct her on that point. I’m glad I have another viable choice this year instead of the typical rich, white man that hides his own racist attitude behind ultra conservative ideas and standards. I don’t consider myself a Democrat but I’m a Liberal and I hate the attitude of McCain and his kind. He’s a warmonger that is determined to take care of his rich friends and family because they took care of him. “Trickle down” economics doesn’t work! The fight in Irag is a modern day Vietnam!
    I also think voting is over rated anyway because of “voting nullification”. Most people ignore the issues and just vote for the person they like to see or hear the most. Thats one of the reasons for the electorial college in the first place. The founding fathers knew that the average voter was not equipped to make such an important decision.

  • In response to post #587 made by astraya:

    I personally heard two of my friends discussing Obama/McCain not too long ago. Neither of them said ANYTHING about policies, choices, ideas, etc…

    They both made it very clear where their vote was going, and that is towards Obama. When I asked them why, they said: “Because he’s black of course! Why vote another white guy in?”
    (One friend was black, one friend was white.)

    Yes, I’m American. Yes, they are American.

    Sometimes, it IS as easy as “Oh, he’s this way, or that way, I think he’ll do better.” as is the case for this. “He’s black? I’m voting for him.”

    So, yeah, this is not THE issue, but it certainly is A issue.

    Either way, I support Obama (just throwing that out there!)

    The US IS ready for a black president.

  • Callie

    astraya-

    ditto to the responses above. There’s also people that will flat out lie and say they voted/plan to vote for Obama even if they didn’t so they don’t appear racist. It’s called the Bradely effect.

  • SlickWilly

    Callie:

    I believe the Bradley effect is actually the phenomenon of minority voters, presupposed to support a minority candidate, ending up voting for the minority candidate’s opposition for any number of reasons.

  • bucslim

    I swore off this entire website about a month ago because I couldn’t take it anymore. I nearly shit my pants after reading a thoughtful, well rounded and reasoned response from non-other than my arch enemy in this debate. Instead of his usual haughty name calling rant, we see a different side of him actually seeming like he’s ‘reserved.’

    I’m thinking NyQuil was involved.

    Who are you and what did you do with the real Randall?

  • rushfan

    You’ve been missed bucslim. :)

  • Callie

    Slick:

    The theory of the Bradley effect is that the inaccurate polls have been skewed by the phenomenon of social desirability bias. Specifically, some white voters give inaccurate polling responses for fear that, by stating their true preference, they will open themselves to criticism of racial motivation

    (wikipedia)

    I really wish I could find better sources to back my stuff up. I hate wikipedia. I’ll work on it.

  • I think that while the “Bradley Effect” used to be true, the average American has outgrown that childish behavior.
    I have already voted, for Obama, because I find his approach to the issues, overall, superior to McCain’s.
    I also believe he is far more intelligent, and more steady.
    One of the biggest pluses of all, he has no Sarah Palin holding him back.

  • SlickWilly

    Callie:

    Well, I’ll be jiggered. I must have gotten some bad info somewhere. I’ll concede to the almighty Wiki. (It’s not that bad, really it’s not. It held its own against Encyclopedia Britannica.)

  • Callie

    Slick:
    There’s something called a reverse Bradley effect, I think. Pundits are theorizing that’s what happened to Obama in New Hampshire (he was projected to win by a landslide but Hillary took the state) maybe that’s what you’re thinking of.

    At any rate, maybe (hopefully!) segue is right and we no longer think that way. Only time will tell. I’m just happy people are getting out and voting, no matter your candidate. Unless you plan on writing in Gilligan or something. Why do people ever waste their time with that? Hundreds of years to come up with our system and people want to vote Spongebob Squarepants President. Lame.

  • Callie

    by the way, “I’ll be jiggered” is totally going in heavy rotation in my vocabulary.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    I don’t know what you mean; I’ve ALWAYS been well-rounded and reasoned.

  • BOLTRON73

    Some Americans are not ready for a Black President but America is ready for that… the reason why some american are not ready its because they feel that they are still the supreme beings and they feel insulted that they are being ruled by a black president..

    Who ever will be that President might be we need to help him/her to become 1 happy family..

    regarding the war we need to win in order to have or give peace (were counquering a country for money?).
    or how about let them do their stuff we’ll do ours..

    just my opinion…..

  • Horror

    Judging from some of the comments above, I dare say The US isnot ready for a black President… It seems that racial tension bubbles just under the surface for many people who feel disenfranchised, be it due to low socio-economic circumstances, low levels of education and job instability (but please note that not all racists are poor, and not all poor people are racists).

    I’ve noticed that one of the accusations levelled at Obama time and time again is that he is a Socialist. I’m not from the U.S. and am priveleged enough to live in a country where we have universal health care, and so I want to know: Why is Socialism seen as a great evil? Is it because of it’s evokation of Communism?

    I just can’t understand why policy which improves the quality of life for ALL citizens, not just the rich, is seen as a bad thing, even by the poor. Same deal with taxation. It works for Europe, which consists of some of the oldest and strongest democracies in the world.

    I appreciate any rational response to my question and thank you in advance for your help :-)

  • JayArr

    Horror(603) I think socialism is actually not such a bad thing when it comes to providing equal coverage and access to needs-level programs/services/facilities. Politically and economically speaking, it certainly has its drawbacks. There’s little incentive to be on the cutting edge of reform, innovation and production; lack of rewards to the individual is a common reason why many people do not like how communism and socialism are practiced. It seems that most people are also of the opinion that ‘any’ aspect of a political/social ideology implemented necessarily means that all of it will be implemented eventually – even though that’s not likely to be true.

    The question of race could be equated in many people’s minds in much the same way – if we let ‘one’ in, we gotta let ‘all’ in… they’ll take over! oh no, what will we ever do?? Truth is, if we don’t like what the ‘one’ does, we simply don’t re-elect the one; and if things are bad enough, we impeach him/her. That’s the beauty of a representative democracy.

    If we elect the best person for the job, regardless of race, sex, religion and/or social status, then we really have nothing to worry about. The over-arching problem is, people are often as biased, irrational, intolerant, sexist, racist and bigoted as they proclaim themselves not to be…

  • 604. JayArr: Change representative democracy to representative republic, and I think you’re pretty much spot on (I just have this *MAJOR* problem with people using democracy instead of republic or democratic republic….I don’t know why, it’s a quirk, I admit it’s a quirk, it really doesn’t even make a difference in the scheme of things. Yet I can’t let it just go.)
    Anyway, I agree with you. As long as we elect the best person for the job, none of the absurd qualifiers should even exist as considerations.
    There will always be the few for whom no amount of qualification can overcome whatever their particular bias is. Those people are…well…unfortunate.
    Most people today, thank heavens, have overcome that kind of mindset, and will vote for the best person whoever it might be.

  • jbjr

    Rushfan: If Palin does end up as president wouldn’t we have a pussy in the white house?

  • jbjr

    Maybe Obama has a cat he’ll bring.

  • MT

    Sarah Palin is so sexy! She even showed a little rhythm last night on SNL.
    I hope that after she loses the election with McCain she gets her own reality TV show.

    OBAMA/BIDEN IN ’08!!!

  • A sibling and I are in an intellectual e.mail argument about Obama-McCain right now.

  • JayArr

    Segue(605) Thanks for your support! :-) As for the question of republic or democratic republic in this case, that’s not quite right. I understand what you mean when you refer to republic, but it’s not contextually accurate with my earlier comment. While the US is a republic, the number one fundamental principle upon which our government was founded is that of a representative democracy. We’re both referring to the same core concept though. ;-)

    Hurray for Ameddikka!

  • Callie

    jbjr:

    …Really?

    People like you should be required to take a test before you can vote. Sickening.

  • jbjr

    Callie:

    Sorry about that. I wrote that because I was taken aback when the word was used to describe Obama in an earlier post.

    Would it be alright to call McCain one?

  • Anon

    I recently received the following piece of thought provocation as a circulating e-mail. Not sure whether it belongs here or in ‘Next President’, so am posting in both:

    “The following might help put the presidential race — and race — into perspective.

    Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin, what if things were switched around?…..think about it.

    Would the country’s collective point of view be different?

    Ponder the following:

    What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, including a three month old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?

    What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?

    What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class?

    What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?

    What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his
    standards?

    What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?

    What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her
    charitable organization?

    What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?

    What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?

    What if McCain was a charismatic, eloquent speaker?

    What if Obama couldn’t read from a teleprompter?

    What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven
    planes?

    What if Obama was the one who was known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?

    What if Michelle Obama’s family had made their money from beer distribution?

    What if the Obamas had adopted a white child?

    You could easily add to this list. If these questions reflected reality, do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are?

    This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes
    negative qualities in another when there is a color difference.

    Educational Background:

    Barack Obama:

    Columbia University – B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations.

    Harvard – Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude

    Joseph Biden:

    University of Delaware – B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.

    Syracuse University College of Law – Juris Doctor (J.D.)

    vs.

    John McCain:

    United States Naval Academy – Class rank: 894 of 899

    Sarah Palin:

    Hawaii Pacific University – 1 semester

    North Idaho College – 2 semesters – general study

    University of Idaho – 2 semesters – journalism

    Matanuska-Susitna Colle ge – 1 semester

    University of Idaho – 3 semesters – B.A. in Journalism

    Education isn’t everything, but this is about the two highest offices in the land as well as our standing in the world. You make the call.”

  • Anon, even though everyone in my family, except my brother and his immediate family, are Obama supporters, I forwarded this anyway. I just thought it was a powerful message.
    Thanks.

  • Horror

    Some perspective on how the rest of the world feel about Obama vs McCain:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2398181.htm

  • bucslim

    Anon

    What if my Aunt had testicles? She’d be my uncle.

  • Callie

    Anon:

    Bush went to Harvard too..He must be as smart as Obama, right?

    School isn’t everything. Biden plagerized his way through U of D. It’s documented.

    When you go to have surgery done, do you want the guy who’s been doing it for years and knows exactly where to cut or the guy who’s been doing it for 6 months but has a really fancy degree?

    Don’t be swayed by fancy schooling. Be swayed by what you want for your country.

  • Anon

    Bucslim,

    If she/he was your aunt by marriage and gay, testicles or not, no.

    Callie,

    “Bush went to Harvard too..He must be as smart as Obama, right?”

    Well, you can prove that to us by setting out the Bush academic record in the same form as those in my post.

    By my understanding neither of the candidates has been President before. Therefore America is surely choosing between two first-time surgeons?

    What you want for your country is your privilege. What the much of the rest of the world (which is helpless in the choice, but suffers the consequences) would like is summed in the site recommendation of Horror (615).

  • Callie

    “By my understanding neither of the candidates has been President before. Therefore America is surely choosing between two first-time surgeons?”

    That’s a fair enough point. However..if both of them are doctors (or politicians), who deserves to be chief of medicine (or POTUS) In this case, their schooling shouldn’t matter, their qualifications up until this point should. It comes down to who YOU..not other countries, not your mom/dad/sibling/spouse thinks is best.

    I got into Penn State, American, and George Washington and I chose to go to a small school in Maryland. Any one of those universities would have looked much more stellar on a resume than the one I ended up at, but in the end it was about what what best for me and my continuing education.

    I’m just saying these “powerful messages” can all be broken down. This one is obviously pro-Obama. Where’s his class ranking? Where’s the mention that Biden has been caught plagerizing several times, both at college and in his political career? I’ll go find an email that sheds a postive light on McCain just as easy as you found this one.

  • Randall

    Callie:

    A) The record I find is that Barack Obama graduated from Columbia University at 212 out of over 3800 graduates. He then went to Harvard Law school–arguably the most prestigious law program in the country–where he graduated Magna Cum Laude, a distinction which, at Harvard, says that he was in the top 20% of a graduating class. He was also President of the Harvard Law Review–not a job given to the lightweights and slackers.

    B) Much is made of Biden’s so-called plagiarism, but in fact it was not “several times.” There were, in fact, only TWO charges leveled against him–one in college–which he was CLEARED on—and one for paraphrasing a speech by Neil Kinnock–DURING a speech (so it was not surprising that he didn’t cite Kinnock, and hardly a federal offense). Having sat on student plagiarism committees, I know they don’t get let off that easily, and it’s likely that if Biden was cleared on the charge, it was probably undeserved in the first place.

    The simple fact is, Barack Obama is a highly-intelligent individual. Biden a highly capable senator and lawyer. McCain—a good senator but never considered to be anywhere near an intellectual. And certainly his running mate, Sarah Palin, is as dumb as a box of rocks.

  • Cedestra

    Randall: Why are you hating on rocks, now?

  • Randall

    Cedestra:

    I do not hate rocks; Randall is Guaranteed Largely Hate-Free, in fact. However, one must be brutally honest and admit freely that rocks are not, by any means, the smartest of god’s creatures. They consistenly score far below-average on SAT, ACT, and other standardized testing. Nor have they been known for their scholarly work in any field, with the sole exception of Geology, where they excel merely as subjects, not as scholars themselves. A rock has never won on Jeopardy, let alone a Nobel. Rocks are unable to read or write. The humble rock ought to be respected for many things, but intellectual accomplishment is not one of them.

    Therefore, safe to assume that a BOX of rocks would, while perhaps being somewhat smarter than a SINGLE rock (being able, naturally, to pool their limited resources) be near the bottom on the scale of smarts. And yet, one must presume Sarah Palin to be dumber still. Rocks at least know that the Vice President of the United States merely PRESIDES over the Senate and casts votes only in the case of a tie. He or she does NOT participate in the Senate in the ways Palin recently indicated to an innocent and unaware 8th grader, whose poor little mind is now mushed up with contradictory claims—since he was surely taught in some sort of Social Studies or Civics class what Palin ought to have known herself–what with her running for the actual office and all.

  • Cedestra

    Randall: Mmm, so would you be saying that she’s smarter than A rock but not many rocks with pooled intelligence? Or maybe you are willing to recant and say Palin’s intelligence is lesser or equal than one rock and help make the rocks feel better about themselves. You know, rocks have come a long way in their fields of study. Why, just the other day I read a smashing paper written about the study of rock stacking as a replacement for space ships in space exploration. Utter nonsense, if you ask me. I was told, though, that only 132 rocks were needed to write such a paper- usually, of course, at least 200 are needed to write any paper of substance.
    So, let us not count our rock-friends out of the line of intelligence. Now bricks, on the other hand, bricks can just go to Hell.

  • Callie

    Much is made? Really? Nothing is made of Biden at all, he’s getting an easy pass. Here’s what I know. By the way, he may have been “cleared” in that he wasn’t kicked out of Syracuse but he failed the class in question because of his plagiarism. In the speech in question, he began with the line “I was thinking..” and then launched into a nearly verbatim narrative of Kinnock’s speech. It was a little more than “paraphrasing.” Anyhow, I’ve been wanted to say this for awhile now, so:

    I grew up in the town Biden’s wife and daughter died in. He trotted out her death every time he was up for re-election..he squeezes out some tears, parades his sons in front of the Delaware elite, and prides himself on single fatherhood.

    Let’s see if Sarah Palin could get away with any of these:

    Biden has smeared the other driver in that accident since it happened in the 70’s. He’s continuously made claims the man was drunk and rammed them, killed his wife and baby daughter and injured his sons. What happened was terrible, but it was Mrs. Biden’s fault. She ran a stop sign. The driver of the truck that hit her was cleared, he was not drunk, or speeding, and his truck passed inspection.

    Biden met his second wife 6 months after the accident and married her a little under five years later. Biden’s sister and her familiy moved in with him to help him care for the kids. He was a “single father” for 6 months- during which time the senate was in session and he had several caretakers for the boys.

    One other thing- the media makes a big to do about Palin using her children, trotting them out and whatnot. Biden’s sons were young at the time of the accident, but not too young to remember some of it. Biden brings up his tragic past and single fatherhood EVERY election, thereby making his sons relive that terrible night, and the death of their mother and sister over and over again.

    Biden might be capable, but he’s a despicable human

  • bucslim

    Yeah, you’re largely hate free Randall. Unless a person believes in Jesus or is anti-abortion or likes Led Zeppelin over the Beatles, or thinks the stats on global warming are skewed, or is a republican or puts only white guys in a list of top rockin bands, or thinks Truman is a mass murderer or votes for Hillary or likes Coke instead of Pepsi. Then it’s ok, because those people are just assholes, right?

  • Callie

    actually Randall..Joe Biden got the VP’s reponsibilities wrong.

    “Democratic vice presidential nominee Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. appeared to incorrectly outline the constitutional role of the job he’s seeking in Thursday’s debate.

    In attacking Vice President Dick Cheney, Mr. Biden said the vice president’s only role is to support the president and to preside over the Senate “only in a time when in fact there’s a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit.”

    The Constitution, though, actually says the vice president is always president of the Senate and legal scholars say he has the right to preside at any time. Early vice presidents, such as Thomas Jefferson, actively exercised that role, the vice president still keeps offices at the Capitol, and scholars say it wasn’t until the middle of the 20th century that the vice president had an office at the executive office building.

    The president pro tempore, usually the senior senator from the majority party, takes over only when the vice president is absent. In recent practice, as the vice president has taken a bigger role in the executive, that’s meant the Senate operates almost all of the time without the vice president in the chair.”

    -Washington Times

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Yeah, except for all that, Hate Free.

  • Randall

    Callie:

    Look, I never made a big deal out of Palin trotting her kids out. That’s the kind of thing politicians do. Rather, I make a big deal out of Palin being a moron. Which she is.

    The polls are indicating that the American people agree with ME on this (not surprising… what with me being Everyman) in that Palin is now the CHIEF issue for why people are turning away from McCain, according to the latest reports.

    Now, as for Biden… I make no claims to the guy being a saint. It’s why we call him Joey the Shark. The plagiarism? Yes, I give him a pass on that because it’s clear it’s nothing more than something for people opposed to him to latch on to, when the fact is politicians blab other people’s words all the time without proper citation. And Biden IS, as we know, an unmitigated big mouth–nobody denies that. But at any rate, TWO shady, half-baked instances of “plagiarism” don’t make him disreputable. A great solid guy? Maybe not. But neither is McCain, nor are probably most of the men and women in the Senate and the House.

    I don’t excuse the guy. But CLEARLY he’s no dummy, and he’s highly capable. If, god forbid, something happens to Obama, I’m fine with the keys of power being handed over to Biden. But if something were to happen to McCain (not unlikely at his age) to turn them over to Palin fills me with fear, horror, and facial tics.

  • JayArr

    Man, I hate it when people start dis’n rocks – what’d they ever do to us that we didn’t force them to do in the first place???

    Playing devil’s advocate here on the doctor bit… if one doctor had 10 years in practice before the other doctor started, but had also ‘lost’ an average of three of the ten patients he operated on each year, I’m thinking I’d take my chances with the younger doctor that has only performed a total of three surgeries but all patients survived… hmmm….

  • Randall

    Cedestra:

    Well yes, bricks, for ages, have been riding the coattails of rocks. But bricks are bottom feeders, no question about it.

    And that paper? Yeah, plagiarized from a paper written by sediments, back in the 70s. I saw it in “Nature.”

  • MT

    I have stated my opinion loud and clear here in Atlanta Ga. today by voting early for the next President of the United States……Barack Obama.

  • Callie

    Playing devil’s advocate here on the doctor bit… if one doctor had 10 years in practice before the other doctor started, but had also ‘lost’ an average of three of the ten patients he operated on each year, I’m thinking I’d take my chances with the younger doctor that has only performed a total of three surgeries but all patients survived… hmmm….

    At the risk of sounding stupid, I’m confused by this one..maybe the medical analogy went to far :)

  • Randall

    MT:

    Vote early, vote often. :-)

  • JayArr

    Callie, I was referring generically to the comments above about if they were surgeons…which would we choose – the one with more experience or the one without. ;-)

  • 633. Randall: Vote early, vote often.
    ****
    I had an uncle who lived by that rule…and got away with it too. But that was in the 20’s – 50’s Australia, and the polls weren’t so tightly regulated.

    I voted, by mail, last week. Obama/Biden. Why wait until the last minute?

  • Cedestra

    Randall: *gasp* And I was rooting for the rocks…*tsk* Well, I guess that automatically disqualifies them from anything they EVER do again, like write other papers or run for the vice-presidency, things like that. ;)

  • JayArr

    But they still make great paper weights!

  • Anon

    Rocks? You guys want some really influential rocks? Come to Chile. We got ’em. PO-litical rocks with a capital P.

    Every time there’s an election, the rocks here have a big say. Great obtruding rocks in the countryside and along mountain roads. The bigger the election, the bigger their say.

    Take the early 70s. Some shouted in multi-colours, “Vote Allende” (Most Chileans did, he was the short-term winner: but it was All-endes up for him soon enough). Others gave us “Vote Tomiç” (But he lacked a-Tomic power), or “Vote Alessandri” (Whose speeches were said to be as tedious as the Alexandrines mocked by Pope). But the rocks don’t stop there. They will even adorn themselves with exhortations and occasional political rock-art in advocation of their favourites.

    This so impressed a working companion that he proposed writing a geological paper describing a recent formation period in the Andes, the Sloganiferous Era.

    Yeah, rocks rock and bricks are square, like wot you folks say.

  • Callie

    Don’t be a square, man!

    L 7 weenies…

  • Cedestra

    637. Yes, they do, but I was so hoping that one day they would rise above their earthly means and become better than what we think they can do. Other things can be great paperweights: statues, clocks, fruitcakes, witches. But rocks are tired of being downcast and downtrodden. They’re trying to make a better future for themselves and their rocklings. Of course, if they keep up with that plagiarizing bullcrap, then they can stay paperweights for all I care. I just want to give them a chance.

  • Anon

    Beware malevolent alien rocks in space. With anger they sometimes smite our fragile Earth mightily. Even a carefully self-directed, teeny weeny meteorite might end the pretensions of Obama or McCain, and a truly enraged monster might end the pretensions of us all. Rocks may well have the last word.

    But bricks, they’re a joke. Like cauliflowers, fantail goldfish and poodles, they are the creations, artifacts and slaves of humanity. They can kill, but only at our behest, and only one person at a time. Collectively they have indeed rebelled and fallen upon a fair quantity of us, but to no purpose or avail. Unlike rocks, they cannot cause extinction events. They are useless without us and when we become extinct, so will they.

  • Anon

    Callie,

    A passing thought crossed my mind. Does your experienced/inexperienced surgeon analogy apply to the potential VPs?

  • Cedestra

    641. Anon: “They can kill, but only at our behest, and only one person at a time.”
    Well, except for the Great Rock Incident of 1957 in which 13 people were killed by one rocked ricocheting off of each other. Wiped out almost half of a small town in Nevada!

  • Cedestra

    I meant brick. Great Brick Incident of 1957. Rocks would never do such a thing.

  • JayArr

    I once shared a fruitcake with a witch… boy, what a great day that was! We sat on a clock statue and had a mug of hot eggnog with it… ah, the memories…

  • Anon

    Cedestra,

    That merely qualifies as one of my collective incidents. As a rule bricks work in unison during these, but perhaps the Great Brick Incident of 1957 was triggered by one individual running amuk, Malay style, and mentally destabilizing the rest. Unlike rocks, bricks are not individualists as such, however. For one to run amuk would be the exception. They are a conformist, look-alike, follow the crowd set. Except that bricks are all of the same size and temperament, we might fear a large, dominant brick-Hitler or brick-Stalin somewhere, who could organise plebian bricks into a terrifyingly destructive force aiming to create a 1000 year Brickish Empire.

  • JayArr

    Fear the Brickish Empire! I’m more of a Rocktopia kind of guy, myself.

  • Anon

    Apropos,

    When someone stands by us, helps us, or does us a great favour, often at the cost of self-sacrifice, why do we say,

    “Thanks, you’re a brick.”?

    Shouldn’t it be “… you’re a rock.”?

    And whoever heard of “The Brick of Ages”, or “Solid as a brick” or “Brick firm” (apart from firms which make bricks)?

  • Anon

    JayArr,

    Me, I’m Cock of the Rock (and take that any way you like).

  • Callie

    Anon:

    I suppose it should, as the analogy itself simply boils down to experience in general..however, both McCain and Obama are senators and as such their records and experience in the senate can be compared.

    Palin and Biden are a governor and a senator…their responsibilites can’t quite be compared as easily, but their political experience can (though it can be argued that governing a state and running a country parallel more closely than being a senator and running a country.)

  • JayArr

    Anon, I used to be one too – until my wife decided to hit me with a brick…

  • Anon

    JayArr,

    My wife only goes in for ice cream bricks. I’m more than happy to be hit by one of those …

  • Anon

    Callie,

    Sounds like you might be advocating governor Palin for President and downgrading the other three senators then!

  • Anon

    JayArr,

    … provided it isn’t frozen too hard. Ouch …

  • You know, if you leave a fruitcake out long enough, it will become rock hard; Thus, allowing you to use the fruitcake as a weapon, paper weight, missile, general object of destruction, etc. and allowing the rocks and bricks to lie about in a heap (as rocks and bricks are wont to do), so re-establishing the delicate balance of life.

  • astraya

    I have only just rediscovered this recent exchange. I had to scroll a long way back to find where the obsession with rocks came from.

    In defence of rocks:
    1) they were the first practioners of rock music (without which there’d be no Led Zeppelin)
    2) an infinite number of them falling on an infinite number of typewriters could create the script of “Hamlet”
    3) Um – some of them look pretty.
    4) (Getting desperate) – um

    I also saw the article mentioned in 615, but couldn’t be bothered posting it. It seems everyone in this discussion is either not a US voter, or has already made up its mind.

    It looks at this stage that the US is going to get a black president ready-or-not.

  • astraya

    segue: you posted 655 as I was typing 656. Can we call S Palin a fruitcake then?

    Who will be ‘666’? (It was segue on the other list, wasn’t it?)

  • astraya, yes, to both questions.
    I think I was 666 on a list that was loosely religious (but I forget which list now).
    I was watching…I think it was Rachel Maddow…and the idea came up that Palin had given up on being McCain’s running mate and was positioning herself for a run of her own in 2012.

  • Anon E. Mouse

    Wow… Interesting how conversations turn around here… Gone from racial acceptance to presidential eligibility to the delightful topic of… Rocks?

    I suppose rocks do, in fact, rock. But, on to the thing I came here to say…

    As for America being ready for a black president… Undoubtedly for intelligent, younger members of society, yes. I fear for some of the backwoods, secluded populations though. I also fear that Obama will become a likely target for assassination. I’m not ready to say that America has grown up enough to be free of it’s ‘colored glasses’ view of things. I have my own views of racism, they tend to get me in trouble. Personally, I believe that while the prejudice of whites against blacks is horrible, and is portrayed as such, the massively growing prejudice of blacks against whites is inevitably taken as part of todays culture or ‘okay’. I get so sick of it. Why should the ‘n’ word be treated with respect by all others when black people themselves are so inclined to toss it about casually amongst themselves?

    So, all in all, while I support Obama, I don’t want to see him get the presidency simply BECAUSE of the fact that he’s black. I want to see him win because his proposed policies are better, he presents himself well, and as a member of the military, he seems my only hope for not experiencing a ton of deployments to the middle east.

    One thing I would like to see any of the candidates even MENTION would be whether or not they plan to bring back up the number of species actively protected by the government. Since Bush’s term, the number has drastically decreased.

    All of this, and Palin scares the bloody crap out of me…

  • Callie

    653:

    No, no, no. I just think her experience shouldn’t be swept under the rug because some people think she’s “dumb as a box of rocks” ( I think that was the quote… :) )

    She’s a smart, capable woman. Capable of the presidency? Not at this time. Capable of the vice presidency? Yes. More capable (and about 100 times more likeable than Biden, who doesn’t even know his role as VP)? Hell yes.

  • JayArr

    I love it when a plan comes together!

    Oh, and why is it that when a rock is born, that’s as big as it will ever get? The older they are, the smaller they become. If only it worked that way with my belly and with many politicians’ egos.

    Get – in – muh – bellee!!

  • Everyone keeps saying that it’s the younger generation who will support Obama, and the older, white generation who are afraid of him.
    That amuses me. That amuses me in the extreme.
    If anyone can remember, or cares to look up their history, the 1960’s America was the “Generation of Love”. The hippies.
    There was a lot wrong with the hippies, but there were some things right. One of the right things, one of the *very* right things, was a complete lack of racial bias. This lack of bias has followed them through life, so you now have a large group of 60 – 70 yr. olds without racial bias; who will be voting based on which candidate they think will be best for the country, not on skin color.
    These are people who passed on their attitudes to their children. So you have two generations of people whose lack of bias is real, is bone deep.
    Of course the numbers are not large enough to swing the election. But the numbers are real. We now have two generations. The third is now being born, are toddlers, pre-schoolers. In another few elections they will be voters. The numbers will grow.
    Of course, this is a simplistic view of a complex problem. But it is a beginning.
    “To everything there is a season”…maybe the season is coming.

  • JayArr

    ecclesiastes 3:1-8

  • Anon

    Callie,

    “… about 100 times more likeable than Biden”

    I seem to recall a fairly recent President named Jimmy Carter, who was one of the most likeable souls on earth …

    Again, if memory serves, a certain hostile, confrontational and antagonistic British P.M. (female to boot!), Maggie Thatcher, was for a long while considered one of our most effective of all times. Unfortunately Iron rusts. She should have got herself called the Stainless Steel Lady.

  • Quiana

    Obama rocks!!!

  • Callie

    Anon:

    There was a young man named John Kennedy who was both likeable and presidential, no?

    There was an actor by the name of Ronald Reagan whom people believed too “Hollywood” to be president, and now ranks among the highest approval ratings.

    Surely you can be both personable, likeable, and capable?

  • Anon

    And now back to the far more fascinating topic of rocks (The Top 10 Rocks in Geology, someone?).

    Maybe I should change my aka from Anon to Andesite.

    “I talk to the rocks, but they don’t listen to me” (Sends off for straightjacket from Amazon, small percentage of purchase price to LV.)

    It occurs to me that if we gave our children a box of wooden or plastic rocks (but not a Barbie-style Sarah Palin doll equivalent) instead of building brick sets to play with, they might grow up with a much more harmonious approach to the natural world.

    JayArr,

    “… why is it that when a rock is born, that’s as big as it will ever get?”

    It ain’t necessarily so. Have you not noticed that rocks go in for re-incarnation? Small, rounded pebbles combine anew as massive chunks of conglomerate. Innumerable grains of sand, individually as physically feeble as Monty Burns, reappear as sandstone mountains, with all the innate power of Monty Burns’s amoral mindset. In fact ultimately all rocks are subsumed beneath the earth’s mantle and phoenix-like, are reborn to the world from the fiery interior.

    Such is the wonder of rocks.

    (Thinks: how much longer shall we be allowed to get away with this indulgent non-seqitur?) Ah, but if we delicately avoid Little Rock and bring the subject back on topic by asking, “Is the US (and the World) Ready for a Black Rock?”, we find the answer to be a resounding “Yes”, with around three dozen global entries in wiki.

    Well, with that I guess I’ve truly hit rock-bottom. So …

    ………………………THE END………………………

  • Anon

    Callie,

    Indeed you (or one) can. However, I was given to believe you were intending the reverse, which was the point of my post. I.e. that unloveable Maggies and Bidens can’t cut the mustard. If all can, the Good, the Bad and the Ugly equally, then surely likeablity comes close to being irrelevant, if not actually a dangerously seductive wrong reason to vote?

    Having said that, who could deny that Nixon’s inability to control his *villanous-looking shadow* fairly cost him the contest against square-jawed, clean-shaven Kennedy?

  • astraya

    I don’t know whether to add this here or under “outbursts in public” re Michael Richards.
    I was watching “America’s next top model” last night. Okay, my wife was watching America’s nest top model last night and I was sitting next to her. One of the contestants is a “straight out of central casting small-town, apple-pie” young (white) woman. Two others are a motor-mouth self-proclaimed “black” woman (ie about 25% African ancestry) and a transgender “woman”. The white woman said something about the black woman’s incessant talking and within milliseconds the black woman had parlayed that into in insult about race. Later, the transgender accidentally encroached on the white woman’s personal space and she pushed her away. Soon after, that became “intolerance for transgenders” and they ganged up on her and reduced her to tears. I was firmly on the side of the white woman, if that doesn’t make me sound racist or intolerant of transgenders. I don’t like motor-mouths of any “race” (ie human or Martian). The concept of transgender freaks me out, through lack of ever having met one.
    At the end of the episode, the black and the transgender were up for elimination. The black woman was.
    Intriguingly, there’s another woman on the show who is even darker than the one I’ve just been talking about, and she hasn’t said anything about race, and appears to be a reasonably personable young woman.
    (Some of you may have seen that on US television a few months ago.)
    I think my point is that as soon as race (or gender) becomes an issue, years or centuries of hostilities come into play. If this election was between McCain and Biden (the two old white men), would the debate be about race or gender?

  • Anon

    astraya,

    Ah, but what if the (presidential) contest were between Condoleezza Rice and Michelle Obama? Now there’s a thought.

  • astraya

    I imagine Rice v Mobama would be run on “experience” v “change”.

  • Anon

    Indeed,

    Plus ca change, plus c’est la même experience …

    But at least on a level racial and gender playing field! All bad or all good, depending on you point of view, I guess. Ha Ha.

  • MT

    All Americans Vote on November 4th!

    It’s not over yet despite what the polls say.

    The Republicans will lie,cheat or steal to win an election so don’t take our large lead for granted.

    OBAMA/BIDEN IN ’08!!!

  • bucslim

    MT – Us Republicans are just trying to keep up with Acorn.

  • Kit Kat

    I hope so. However, with all his talk about change and not being specific about what he’ll do is kind of worrying me. He certainly knows how to do the talking but can he walk the walk? We’ll find out . . .

  • JayArr

    Anon – lucky for reincarnation, rocks have a chance to come again as bigger better rocks than before. Though I wonder – does Rock Springs really spout rocks? I know presidential candidates spout a lot of things, but I can’t say as I’ve ever seen one spout a rock… though I have seen one spout a tooth!

  • girlymac

    8 Days & counting for all of us Stupid/Ignorant Republicans! Can’t wait to see how many white votes add to the very small population of black votes in this country….Oh, but we aren’t ‘voting’ for Obama BECAUSE he’s BLACK or are we? I mean that might be considered a racist act. Wouldn’t it? To vote for a man because of his skin color? Please! LIBERALS can call be everything in the book, if that makes you feel better. I depend on the knowledge that it’s a LIBERAL spouting off…Hey, what else CAN YOU DO? & Yes there are MANY MORE JUST LIKE ME who are voting for a man on SUBSTANCE & not because of RACE!

  • girlymac

    misspelled word, sorry broken finger.

    YOU CAN ‘CALL ME’ EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK……

  • bucslim

    OK, you’re everything in the book.

  • Callie

    Anon:

    I think my original point was that I don’t care for Biden- for both his political stance and his personal character..it was more a character attack than anything else, which I suppose wasn’t fair.

    Of course I believe you can be both unliked and a great leader, like Thatcher, or liked and not a good leader, like poor Jimmy, or have the best of both worlds like JFK. It brings me to my other point that people would rather dredge up Palin’s beauty pageant past than her political prowess. Say what you want about her smarts, but I doubt any of us is governor of anything, and that does require a certain amount of thinking.

    girlymac-

    sweetie, I’m on your side, and even I’m beseeching you to be quiet. Your rants are doing nothing for us.

  • MT

    679. bucslim

    Maybe you and Faux News should be asking why thousands of registered voters were purged from the roles in Colorado by the Republican Gov. Thats a lot worse than any regristration fraud. It’s also not an isolated incident. You Republicans should take your loss like men and move on.

    OBAMA IN ’08!!

  • rafterman

    I’m voting for McCain. I think the US is ready for a black president, but unfortunately he is in the wrong party for me. What has been driving me crazy lately is when I tell someone who I am voting for, they automatically assume its because I’m a typical white racist trying to keep the black man down. I think a black president would do fine in this country, but I’m not going to vote based on race.

  • Randall

    rafterman:

    So you’re all in favor of how the last eight years have gone? All happy and content with our vastly diminished world image, our mountainous debt, our wildly out-of-control budget, our monumental economic disaster, our six + years of wasted war in Iraq while Afghanistan has been neglected (where the real enemy was), the slow erosion of our civil liberties, the flight of jobs overseas, encouraged by tax policy? All happy with all this, and eight years of corruption both in government and in corporate America, to boot?

    But yeah, go ahead and vote to keep THAT party in power which has urged on, caused, or vehemently supported all this. That makes good sense.

    Voting party line, and particularly for a failed party’s failed philosophy and actions–and particularly in times of crisis–is the act of an irresponsible citizen–one who does not take his or her responsibility AS a citizen seriously, or with any sense of gravity.

  • Anon E. Mouse

    Ah, Randall, with that comment you speak to my heart… Obama made a significant quote recently… “This election will not come down to whether the country is better than it was four years ago, but whether it will be better in four years.” Not exact, but you get the idea.

    People are all ready to criticize Obama with the whole thing about him proposing change and not saying what the change will be… But he HAS… Listen to him. He has divulged more of his plans, I believe than old ‘my friends’ McCain.

    And criticizing him for his tax plan… Where do people think money for government projects COME from? He can’t just wave a magic wand and pull money out his ass to start up programs to help our current situations.

    Rafterman, I do agree with you on the small point that many are making this a race thing. But making it a party thing is kinda bad, too (not AS bad, obviously, but still bad).

  • JayArr

    Anon E Mouse(684) – I believe the end of Barak’s statement was whether we’d be better off than we were …”four weeks ago…”

  • bucslim

    MT – you mean like you Democratic ‘men’ took your losses in 00 and 04?

    And to quote the New York Times:

    “voters appear to have been purged by mistake and not because of any intentional violations by election officials or coordinated efforts by any party.”

  • 682. rafterman: the game is over. McCain has already lost, and he already knows it.
    Palin is already positioning herself for a 2012 run, which the RNC will quash.

  • MT

    686. bucslim

    ’00 was a well documented election theft that eventually gave W. the election via a conservative Supreme Court decision. Judge Scalia (sic) said himself that it was pointless to count all the votes because Bush was going to win anyway. By ’04 the dis-information (swift boat veterans)and fear mongering (do you want another 9/11?)machine was in full effect. The Dems really did “Put Country First” and moved on. Will the GOP do the same or will they continue to undermine Obama’s Presidency by preaching hate, fear and mistrust?

  • bucslim

    MT – thanks for proving my point.

  • Anon. E. Mouse

    JayArr: Really? Dang. I need to shut my mouth and cite my sources before I run off at the face. My apologies.

  • Randall

    buc:

    I love you man, but you’re being disingenuous. Those two elections–particularly 00—were highly suspect. Let’s not pretend they weren’t. But let’s not be coy about it from the other angle either—this kind of thing has happened in American elections before, and both parties have been guilty of it. Trouble is, even when it WAS done, in the past, we usually ended up with a decent president despite it. This time, we got badly burned. Twice.

  • JayArr

    Anon. E. Mouse, no worries. I have the occasional day when I actually remember something accurately… rare though they may be.

  • bucslim

    Not being disingenuous. Just responding to the point that we can’t seem to let it go that McCain might be on the verge of losing.

    There’s plenty of bitching to go around on both sides here pal.

  • MDWhite

    Since when is melanin count the most important thing when choosing a leader. Yes, I’d vote for a black man for president in a heartbeat, just not this one. Barack Obama is an empty suit that we know nothing about. He speaks eloquently and says nothing. His inability to squelch those of his supporters who have resorted to blatant illegality, crude and vicious attacks on his opponents, playing the race card, and threatening violence should he not be elected speaks much about the man’s “ends justify the means” approach toward issues. Over the years, he’s surrounded himself with people who genuinely detest my country and much of what it stands for. He distances himself from situations he can’t control, prevaricates and twists facts when things don’t go his way, and has had few, if any, original thoughts in his entire life. Voting “present” is not leadership; neither is being a “community activist” (whatever that is) and neither is a record of never standing up to the leadership if his party on any issue whatsoever. This makes him an automaton party-hack unwilling to do anything that will make him look bad. His life-long goal, like that of Bill Clinton, another man-child, is to be loved , even if it means making inappropriate or dangerously wrong decisions. This man will not make a good president and our country will suffer for it should he be elected.

  • Tafari

    Sorry MDWhite i disagree
    If you think Mcain should be elected that is your choice im voting for Barack Obama. Maybe in America being black will be good and the thousands of black people who dissapear in america(register themselves as white because of light and caucasian features)will may think twice and say hey:” being black aint that bad after all”
    The black image is tarnished today from BET saying the race is all gangsters and pimps hopefully Barack Obama’s presidency can change this.

  • Randall

    MDWhite:

    Let’s pick apart your nonsense piece by piece, shall we?

    “Barack Obama is an empty suit that we know nothing about.”

    Bullshit. The man has a published book that’s been out for ages. He has a record in the Senate and a record in the Illinois legislature. He’s outlined his beliefs and his stand on every key issue you can imagine. This oft-repeated crap mantra of “we know nothing about Obama” is code for something else. Sometimes it’s racism, sometimes it’s just a more general stupidity. Which is it with you?

    “He speaks eloquently and says nothing.”

    Another common bit of repeated nonsense. And it smacks of the usual anti-intellectualism that we’ve seen in this campaign from lumpen-populists on the Right. In point of fact Obama’s speeches and platform have been FULL of not only substance, but SPECIFICS. He DOES speak eloquently at times. Good for him. He’s obviously a very smart man. And you know what? I too am a very smart man. But in my president, I WANT a guy who is a LOT smarter than me. I want the smartest guy in that job we can possibly get. Obama is definitely that. He speaks eloquently because he IS smart and DOES know what he’s talking about and DOES communicate that with substance and specifics. McCain’s blathering, stumbling, halting speech style, on the other hand, not only *conveys* a lack of knowledge and substance, but *betrays* it.

    “His inability to squelch those of his supporters who have resorted to blatant illegality, crude and vicious attacks on his opponents, playing the race card, and threatening violence should he not be elected speaks much about the man’s “ends justify the means” approach toward issues.”

    SURELY now you have simply become totally confused and are in fact talking about McCain, not Obama. The BULK of the “crude and vicious attacks” have come from the Right—mainly from Palin and McCain—and as for violence, nothing matches the violent outbursts we’ve heard at McCain/Palin rallies. In fact, MD, I’d like to ask where the hell you’re getting your information? I’ve heard nothing about “promises of violence” from Obama supporters. (And also, what “crude and vicious attacks” from Obama’s side are you referring to?)

    You know, again… these intimations… smack of disguised racism. The insinuation, it sounds to me, that you’re trying to make is that some kind of call has been made for blacks to “rise up” should Obama lose; I’ve heard no such call. But coming on here and trying to feed the fear of it—very classy, MD. Noooooooo…. you’re not a racist are you? You’re not trying to race-bait or raise fears of race-wars, are you?

    “Over the years, he’s surrounded himself with people who genuinely detest my country and much of what it stands for.”

    I’ve got news for you, MD… it’s my country too. And it seems to me you’re turning TWO associations in Obama’s life–his preacher and a somewhat distant political association—into this exaggeration of Obama “surrounding” himself with such people. Hardly. And let’s remember something else, MD… detesting the American government or at times American society is NOT the same as detesting America (the country) itself.

    “He distances himself from situations he can’t control,”

    This statement is a non-sequitur. To what are you referring to? And when do people, in any case, cozy UP to situations they “can’t control”? What is MEANT by this statement of yours? It makes no sense.

    “…prevaricates and twists facts when things don’t go his way,”

    Another unsupported assertion made by you that demands follow-up and justification.

    Sounds to me, MD, like you’re just retyping right-wing talking points, and vague ones at that.

    “and has had few, if any, original thoughts in his entire life.”

    Again, another unsupported, wild assertion. And ludicrous to boot. On the one hand, it’s just silly to accuse a man in Obama’s position (or McCain’s for that matter) of having “few, if any, original thoughts in his entire life.” That kind of hyperbole is just foolish. On the other hand–what are you saying specifically? Politicians feed off one another and on prior philosophies. There are only so many ways to look at and govern a democratic society. So what kind of “originality” are you expecting?

    At any rate, I’d remind you, MD… Harvard doesn’t routinely graduate at the TOP of their rankings people who lack for original or innovative thinking. Certainly the Harvard Law Review doesn’t name as its presidents people with such lackings. This statement of yours is not only disingenous, it’s offensively foolish.

    “Voting “present” is not leadership;”

    This is a tired, old saw. I’m sure now that all you’re doing is repeating what you’ve heard on Fox News or from Rush Limbaugh or similarly-oriented outlets. The “present” vote in the Illinois State Senate is used as a means of expressing tacit disapproval for a measure without actually voting against it—it’s a custom. It’s a way of dealing with bills that have various items in them that are not in keeping with the senator’s ideas, but have a core point that he or she agrees with. Or vice versa.

    “neither is being a “community activist” (whatever that is)”

    I beg to differ. I’ve known many community activists who were, in fact, great leaders. In fact, it TAKES leadership to be an activist and organizer in communities. And again, the snide little remark (“whatever that is”) indicates that you’re just playing political games here, and right-wing ones at that. You know very well what a community activist is—you simply despise it as a calling. Well I don’t. Most people who understand real life don’t. People who have their heads up their right-wing asses, however, detest “community activism” because for the most part it seeks justice for the little guy, not the rich prick and his giant corporation. Of course, when community activism is about bombing abortion clinics or trying to force right-wing morality on communities, I’m sure you’d be right behind that.

    “and neither is a record of never standing up to the leadership if his party on any issue whatsoever.”

    An out-and-out lie. Obama has already illustrated several instances where he did just that—stood out on his own, against his party’s leadership.

    “His life-long goal, like that of Bill Clinton, another man-child, is to be loved”

    Interesting that you can make such a psychological observation about a man whom you claim (see above, at the beginning of your rant) NOTHING about, since he’s an “empty suit.”

    “This man will not make a good president and our country will suffer for it should he be elected.”

    On the contrary, I think he’ll make a very good president, possibly a great one. But in any case what our country certainly does NOT need now is another four years of Republican rule. That’s obvious.

  • Anon

    MDWhite, (694),

    “…and our country will suffer for it should he (the *man-child*) be elected”

    Ah, just like it has done (and, unbelievably, twice!) under your incumbent (and mercifully nearly *excumbent*) daddy’s-boy, you mean?

  • Cedestra

    I sometimes wish that pretzel had finished the job I sent it out to do (I’m kidding of course- maybe?).
    Damn, Randall, I’m so glad you’re on our side.

  • Oh, Randall, every once in a while I’m reminded I haven’t told you in a long time how much I admire you.
    I admire you. More. I find you astonishingly brilliant. (Believe me, this is *not* a compliment I hand out lightly).

    People! Listen to Randall on this. He has all of his facts at hand. All he says about Obama is true. If I still had the strength, I’d be fighting by his side but, alas, I haven’t that luxury. Randall is a fine, intelligent person. Put his rants aside and listen only to his facts.
    Once you truly absorb the facts about Obama, there is only one choice this year.
    Vote Obama.

  • bucslim

    Easy segue. Randall has sensitive skin, so humping his leg like that is going to give him a nasty rash.

  • 700. bucslim: I’m not in love with the dude. I just admire his mind.
    You’re just jealous because your man is going to lose.

  • Randall

    segue:

    Thank you…. and I’m touched. I hope I can find the strength of will to finish what I’ve started in regards to the work-in-progress I sent you a while back. It gave me a great deal of encouragement to have someone of your position and professional credentials offer me the praise that you did. I appreciated it deeply. And thanks for the support and encouragement here, as well.

  • Randall

    buc:

    My skin is sensitive and supple, yes… but can also take it in the places that count.

  • bucslim

    segue – you admire him now, but he’ll turn on you like a foamy Ole’ Yeller when he disagrees with you. Only one thing to do then, take him to the barn and put him down.

    And yes Randall, you are touched. . . .wokka wokka wokka!

  • buc, Randall and I *have* disagreed, but we handle it like intelligent grown-ups. We have responsible arguments, based on facts, and come through still friends.
    I don’t disagree with him often, but if I do, I’m not afraid to tell him so. He’s not scary.

  • anakin4me

    I’m extremely tired of ignorant people mindlessly repeating blatant lies like “Obama is a terrorist” or “he is a Muslim”. The people that say these things have no knowledge of Barack or probably anything he’s ever done. People can talk about not having experience all they want, and how Barack has never been in the armed forces, but the truth still remains that he knows well what he’s doing. As to the lies of being Muslim, he has always been a Christian. Some also question his place of birth. He was born in Hawaii. Not Indonesia. He has lived in Indonesia, but only for four years after his father died in an automobile accident and his mother remarried to another man.

    On another note, does anyone realize that if John McCain becomes president, many jobs will be lost? John McCain wants to stop funding for NASA which will cause many people to lose their jobs. This can’t happen.

    Vote for Barack Obama. Vote for Change.

  • 706. anakin4me: It’s lovely to see the calm voice of reason…finally!
    Just as a side note, although everyone with half a functioning brain knows Obama has been a life-long, practicing Christian, if he were a Muslim – SO WHAT? He isn’t, but the fact remains, so what? Isn’t this nation founded on the principle of religious freedom? The man could be a practicing Druid, and he’d still have gotten my vote.
    He’s simply the best man for the job right now.

    I’ve already voted Obama, now go and do likewise.

  • Cedestra

    707. segue: I’m glad to know us practicing Druids get your vote. :)

  • bucslim

    segue – anakin4me – you’re both wrong. He’s Jim Jones and you two are next in line to drink the Koolaide.

  • I don’t drink koolaid, it’s full of stuff I can’t even pronounce.
    Besides, the idea of Sarah Palin, whose knowledge of the world is limited so severely, terrifies me. McCain used to be a man with a good head on his shoulders, someone I trusted. Now, he’s stuck in a schizophrenic break, brought on by the tension of the race, harking back to the tension of his years as a POW.
    This is not someone I want to trust with the future of the nation.
    The Republicans had some exceptionally good choices this year. They chose badly.

  • Randall

    buc:

    You and a couple others keep harping on this notion that Obama has somehow “bewitched” all of us and that we think he’s some kind of “messiah.”

    Get off that kick. It’s insulting to the intelligence of people such as myself, segue, and others. I, at least, have perfectly valid reasons for wanting the guy to win over McCain. I’m not “fooled” or in some kind of mind-clouded ectasy.

    Find another tack for arguing this over. That one’s BS, and it’s kinda offensive to people such as myself who don’t get “swept up” by politicians.

  • Callie

    Randall:

    I would never accuse you of being one to get swept up in all of this- and that’s said absolutely without a drop of sarcasm.

    However, being as smart as you are, you have to admit that there are several (most likely young) voters who ARE voting Obama because he’s “fun” and “they make fun of that chick on SNL”

    I wouldn’t go as far as this whole kool-aid analogy, which I am incredibly tired of, but so many people I know who are voting Obama are doing so for really scary reasons.

    By the by-
    Happy Halloween Listversers!!

  • Anon

    Callie,

    I paraphrase again Winston’s (Churchill’s) quotation about the best argument against democracy being a five-minute chat with an average voter.

    So it may be better not to look too deeply into the idiot fringe or knee-jerk voters on all sides of any political contest (you have *disowned* some on your own party’s commenters here, I believe). Better just hope and pray they cancel one another out, and that those capable of more mature, profound and flexible judgement ultimately call the shots.

  • Anon! Welcome back, you have been sorely missed.

  • bucslim

    Randall,

    You’ve insulted my intelligence on this tread time and time again. I dropped it a month ago because you dissected every syllable I wrote and explained to me how crazy I was to even consider voting for someone other than your appointed messiah. A few posts back you said someone was being irresponsible for voting for someone other than the person you’re endorsing. In previous posts you’ve insinuated things about me that were totally false. And now you have the gall to tell me to change my tactics and get off the kick? You can’t accept the fact that there are other people schlepping around this country who see things differently than you and that they might be right. You have no faith in people to make informed decisions for themselves so you go off on lengthy explanations full of browbeating and insults.

    I’ve explained clearly why I’m not voting for Obama and I know plenty of smart, hardworking, honest and good people who are doing the same thing. I don’t owe you any explanation of myself and frankly I don’t give a shit whether you think I’m stupid, irresponsible or fucking of my nut.

    So go ahead, take every sentence I’ve written and write two paragraphs on it for your fawning fans. Or don’t. Either way, I don’t give a damn. You bore the shit out of me.

  • bucslim

    check that – “off my nut.”

  • jbjr

    Your beginning to bore the hell out of me sounds better than shit, don’t you think?

    Heartbreak Ridge – Gunny Highway

  • Anon

    Here’s one question I have for Americans in general and Republicans in particular.

    Generally speaking in the UK, if not always, when a political leader makes a balls-up he or she will get kicked out at the next election as surely as God made …

    So how come the dreadful Dubya got voted in a second time? (I’ll allow anyone can err first time around.)

    This does not suggest to the outside world that Republican voters in particular are all that responsible or reliable. I suppose the inevitable answer will be that the alternative would have been worse (in someone’s opinion). That only then raises the inevitable and distinctly scary sequel: Was that the best potential leadership the most powerful nation in the world had to offer then?!

  • No, Anon, it wasn’t the best potential leadership we had to offer, it was simply that those were the only choices we were given; Kerry or Bush…and Perot, who never had a chance and was only there because he bought his way in.
    That our system is flawed is no secret. Yet it works. It works well. No one man can have more than 8 years to screw things up, and if he screws things up sufficiently in the first 4, he usually gets voted out of office.
    Usually, but not always.
    Still, it works.

  • MT

    Wow, I don’t even like Randall but I respect his ability to get all the facts available and present them in a clear and concise fashion. But I have to agree “he’ll turn on you like a foamy Ole’ Yeller when he disagrees with you”. Now that was funny!

    But bucslim don’t get me wrong, I still don’t like you either. Like most right wing fanatics you’re just a coward hiding behind a keyboard.

    OBAMA/BIDEN IN ’08!!

  • Anon

    segue,

    I was really simply getting in a bit of last minute tongue-in-cheek stirring. In fact that knowing old bird Winston said it yet again in, “Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried.”

    As for leadership material, I suspect the best of it everywhere often remains buried and untried, perhaps not always even in politics. I have a friend who considers leaders should be reluctant and appointed against their will, because they are then devoid of corruptive ambition. Well, history doesn’t really back that as a regular option either.

    As you say, similar to UK reaction, a US bummer is indeed usually shown the door after a first session. So I return to ask Republicans why they expect the rest of us to have confidence in their voting judgement this time around?

  • bucslim

    MT – how exactly am I a coward behind a keyboard?

    What does that even mean and how does it relate to the topic at hand?

    I’m all broken up and misty eyed that you don’t like me MT. I’m so upset I’ll probably have to pack up some jerky and time share with Jeramiah Johnson and Sasquatch in the Rockies as we make a pine cone cabin and burn bison patties in the fireplace and spoon each other at night to keep from getting chilly. As you know Sasquatch doesn’t wipe too good so he stinks like a feedlot and Jeramiah sleeps in the buff and I’ll be the ‘meat’ in this unholy burly sandwich.

    See what happens when you say you don’t like me?

    And if you don’t like me, stop sending me your dirty undies. My mom’s getting suspicious.

  • bucslim

    Oh and I forgot, MT, I’m voting for the Ted Nugent / Pat Buchanon ticket. I mean, why shoot one moose when you can shoot them all, with a bow and arrow no less!

  • SlickWilly

    This is long overdue, but can someone please explain to me how Obama has not been specific about his economic/foreign policies? I’ve heard various versions of the “all style and no substance” argument, but when Obama has clearly been laying out his plans in not only his recent stump speeches, the three presidential debates, and a half-hour long TV special, those people that say that don’t know what he stands for are betraying their own ignorance and laziness. I am making a grand sweeping pronouncement here, though one I feel is valid and justified: If you really are not going to vote for Obama because you “don’t know what he stands for,” you are nothing less than an imbecile. A deaf, blind, lazy, willfully ignorant imbecile. Try picking up a book or newspaper, or logging on to media websites, or even friggen youtube. I promise, I really, really promise it’s not that difficult. A caveman could do it.

    I can’t wait until the end of the week. Hopefully this horseshit will be over by then, the vitriol will begin to disapate (including my own) and we can all get back to trying to eek out a living in this devastated American landscape. Sorry if I offended anyone, but if you were offended, chances are you deserved it. I willing to entertain well-reasoned counterarguments.

  • Anon

    Slick,

    “… you are nothing less than an imbecile. A deaf, blind, lazy, willfully ignorant imbecile.”

    Well then, with voters like that, probably just as well Dubya isn’t coming around for a third term!

  • Phender_Bender

    Do you honestly think more people will not vote for Obama because he is black than will vote for him because he is black? I find it hard to believe (then again, I am a bit sheltered to hardcore racism of the south)that if someone agrees with him, that they won’t vote for him. I just can’t see how someone could hate someone just because of their race. The chances of him getting assassinated are higher than a white president, but the security the president gets is really good. I’m not saying that it couldn’t happen, but I can’t see someone who is dumb enough to be racist be smart enough to get past secret service and the FBI. Your down home racist isn’t usually a mastermind, and is probably addicted to meth or something.
    I, on the other hand, am not voting for Obama because of his stance on abortion and gun control mainly. But another thing, Obama said he wants to decrease taxes for 95% of people, but he wants to increase government spending. So basically what he is saying is that the top 5% (corporations, corporation owners, etc.) will have to not only make up for our tax break, but also pay for the new government programs. If corporations and their owners are paying much more in taxes they will have to charge more for their products, increasing the cost of living, and the corporations will have to make staff cutbacks, increasing the unemployment rate. That seems a bit off to me.

  • Phender_Bender

    MT, bucslim, etc. Lewis Black said it best “It’s no longer enough to just like the guy you are voting for, now you’ve got to hate the guy running against him.” You guys have successfully taken it to a new notch, disliking people who likes the guy who is running against the guy you like. You’re not the only ones though, my car got keyed and the window smashed because I had a McCain/Palin sticker on it. They wrote “Your stupid” not “You’re” but “your.” Now I’m left thinking, my stupid what? Darn vandalizers and their sentence fragments.
    But seriously, the repair cost me $7,000, and the paint another $1000.

  • khen913

    In my humble opinion, the US is ready for a black president, just not this one. We (the majority of the United States) have gotten caught up with “change”. (I challenge someone to tell me what Obama stands for in the next five seconds, and change is not an acceptable answer). It has become hip to dislike, to disdain, conservatives, and Obama is in the right place in the right time with his propaganda.

  • Anon

    khen913,

    “It has become hip to dislike, to disdain, conservatives …”

    Could it be a little five-letter conservative word is responsible for that?

    Dubya.

    Never mind your next five seconds. As an unfranchised Englishman I have gained a great deal of insight into what Obama stands for by absorbing the studied and time-consuming explanations of Randall and others in the 727 postings above yours.

    As a franchised American, have you even bothered to read them?

  • Anon

    Yesterday the World of Formula One was ready for its first black champion … by one point. (Waves British flag in high delight.)

    Might Lewis Hamilton be a positive augur …?

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    I took some time to get back to you on this because I wanted to avoid raising this any further on the hostility meter. You should know I’ve never had anything against you and to my knowledge the only time you and I have ever disagreed is in regards to this topic.

    I’m quite sure I’ve spoken abrasively to you and at you when it comes to politics. But I find it rather disingenuous of you to accuse me of “insulting your intelligence” and “dissecting” your writings and such, when every time the subject of politics has come up, you’ve made it your consistent practice to speak flippantly and mockingly of those whose political stance differs from yours. Now, there’s no problem with this–it’s your right and I do the same thing. But to complain the way you are so doing here is to illustrate that you can dish it out but can’t take it.

    And again you continually (and boringly) return to this mantra of referring to Obama as my “appointed messiah.” You’re usually much funnier than this. What you sound like, when you say such things, is bitter and disillusioned, and trying to convince yourself of something you suspect in your heart to be untrue. But that’s just my opinion.

    However, I don’t feel I can leave it this way with someone on this site that I genuinely like. To my knowledge we’ve only ever disagreed about politics…. let’s leave it at that and let me say that I’m sorry I’ve offended you.

  • Randall, don’t feel too awfully bad. My brother is a rabid McCain supporter (I hate to use the modifier, rabid, but it is the only one which describes his attitude properly).
    A couple of weeks ago we were discussing a certain topic on the election, and it involved the left-wing journalistic coverage…this was all by e.mail. I was explaining what was going on, and why I disagreed with it.
    He wrote back saying he was confused, that I was at one moment supporting them, and at the next saying I disagree.
    He has become so blinded by McCain, that he can no longer tell the difference between an explanation and support!
    We ended up agreeing to give each others news source a one week trial, to see where the other was coming from. His choice was a particular talking head on Fox. Mine was CNBC .
    I haven’t changed, and I doubt he has…it was a moot point, I’d voted two weeks ago.
    Is it any wonder we do not have the closest relationship?

  • Callie

    I’d like to touch on what Phender said…

    First of all, I’m sorry you had to go through that. Second, what is wrong with people? There was a story in the paper about a man who kept getting his McCain sign stolen, so he electrifed it and ended up shocking a nine year old who was trying to steal it and replace it with an Obama sign. (He was fine, but still)

    On Halloween, I found an Obama sticker on the floor and decided it shouldn’t be there and it would be a good idea to rip it up. Now, I was a bit impaired, so maybe it wasn’t to absolute best choice, but I certainly wasn’t implying I wanted to kill/maim/harm Obama HIMSELF, just the sticker. Almost immediately I was callest a racist bitch and nearly got into a fight.

    I just don’t understand. I support John McCain, but not enough to put myself in harms way for him. I don’t support Obama for President, but he’s a perfectly fine man and I wouldn’t attempt to shock people who do like him. It’s all just getting out of hand..I want it to be Wednesday.

  • Randall

    segue:

    I sympathize. I rarely discuss politics with my siblings. We never seem to understand each other and we never seem to be in sync.

    There was surely always a gulf between Republicans and Democrats. My family were Rockefeller Republicans back in the day, and so occasionally voted liberal. But there were also those who were more… Nixonian in their outlook, and we of course know very well the polarization that existed between the opposite ends of the political spectrum in the Sixties. Even so, it seems to me that some deeper distancing and polarization between Right and Left has gone on in our society since the 80s. Why this should be I don’t know, since if anything it seems to my eyes that the Left has moved more towards the Center (by necessity) than it was, say, in the 60s and 70s. Yet the Right still seems to have the same demonization of the Left screwed into its brain. In truth they could find a lot of common ground, the two political poles. But I think the problem stems from who took over the Republican party in the *wake* of Reagan–religious extremists, populists, and exclusionary thugs. To the point today where they can’t even come up with new ideas or even a new rhetoric—they’re living out the McCarthy era, instead, dismissing Obama as a “socialist” and trying to tie him to some kind of “anti-Americanism.” It’s bizarre, and smells desperate (and pathetic). I think it’s because the party abandoned its soul and philosophy, gradually, in the 90s, and fully dropped both into the tank under W.

    My feeling is, if the Republican party wants to save itself and regain its soul, it needs to lose and lose BIG in this election–and not just lose the presidency, but to lose more seats in the House and Senate, and lose as much ground in the States as possible. And then to take that big loss home and think about it, and learn from it, and come back a tad to the Center.

  • Randall

    Callie:

    Yeah… a lot of the civility has gone out of politics. Not that there was that much in it to begin with…

  • bucslim

    Randall – all cool then man. You have raised my blood pressure on a few things here dude, but I’m fine with a simple disagreement. I am flippant and I do mock others, mainly to get a few yuks from myself and hopefully others. (check out my recent reply to MT 722-23) But I was getting a little chafed in my undies with some of your responses. Gold Bond medicated powder and your apology clears everything up nicely.

    Let me say the same to you, I’m sorry I got all huffy and snotty. I have a tendency to go overboard with obtuse puns, cranky observations and gruff replies. I hope we can disagree more politely in the future. You’re a smart guy, I’m just trying to keep up with you on an alternative viewpoint. And I don’t mind saying it’s steady work!

    I’ll end my thoughts by saying I have NEVER been much of a McCain supporter. I don’t particularly care for the guy, but I think he’s honorable and certainly qualified. I’m basing my vote on liberal/non liberal politics. And I think I’ve made it clear that I’m cynical of just about any elected official. I don’t think the Republicans put up much of a fight in the primaries – mainly because the choices were admittedly pretty weak, so we ended up with him.

    Peace – may the best man win.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Thank you for being gracious.

    And I’ll say the same on my end… I can see where some people might feel they just don’t have much of a choice in this election… they don’t like McCain, but are turned off by Obama’s policies, and perhaps what they perceive as his inexperience.

    But as I’ve said, I don’t think the experience thing is a real issue–it’s a chimera. He’s a smart guy and obviously capable. And how many presidents really ARE all that experienced when they go into that job? Brains and coolness and quickness make up for a lot. Whereas Palin–is clearly just an idiot. She’s not bright, she just knows how to handle herself in public. I honestly feel with great confidence that Obama can handle the job. And I honestly feel with terrible certainty that Palin could not.

    The other stuff–I can see being turned off by Obama’s policies, of course. Now, they don’t turn ME off… because I think it’s time to bring the country back to the Center. But of course I can concede that people might agree, sure, that the last eight years have been awful–but still might not want to turn the other way.

    I DO understand this. However…

    I don’t see another alternative at this time. It always happens this way in our history—certain “movements” or philosophies or ways of doing things play themselves out—and then something new has to come in and smash it and rebuild the paradigm. Capitalism isn’t going away, it’s not going to be shunted into the trash heap of history… but it has flaws that we have to recognize and work on, we’ve now seen. Otherwise it seems to work. But it’s not just some free-running system that can self-manage. It’s a tool, is all. And like any tool, it needs management and watching over, otherwise it just runs nuts and causes havoc. Imagine starting up your car and then just putting it gear and and sending it down the road. I mean, somebody needs to be driving the damn thing. You just don’t want to keep building things into the car to make it run worse and worse… you wanna keep it tuned up and running well and efficiently… but still *under your control.* Once upon a time we placed too many restrictions on it, and the thing was sputtering and crapping out on us. But in recent years we’ve gone too far the other way and not only poured rocket fuel into an engine not meant to take it, but then we got out of the driver seat and let it go crazy. It’s no freaking wonder we hit a wall.

    As for the other stuff—we’re looking at a world where things are changing—we’re gradually accepting a LOT of things that were unacceptable 50-100 years ago. And we’re facing the fact that health care IS something like a “right” and we ought to damn well do something about it–and we’re behind the curve on that one. And we’re coming back to the idea that America is a society, not just a brand name, and we owe something to each other, we can’t let the society be riven in two between “rich” and “poor” to the point where there’s this huge gulf between them—because while that might satisfy our instinct towards self-determination, it ends up undermining the democracy badly.

    See, I love this country, I always have. I’m proud of it, I’m proud to be an American, I’m proud my ancestors came here instead of staying in Europe and taking it. But because of all this, I fear for the state of our democracy and for the state of the republic. While part of me agrees that self-determination and self-responsibility is key, I also am forced to recognize that we all have to live with one another AND keep a successful, viable society going. Nobody’s ever tried before what we’ve been trying for the last 200+ years. We’re inventing this as we go along. And to my eyes some cracks have started to appear that need some attention and some repairing… otherwise, in time, the whole thing could come crashing down. And I don’t want that. The IDEA of America is still the best and most sublimely wonderful idea mankind has ever come up with. I don’t want to see it fail. But it’s headed there if we don’t drag the thing back onto the path.

    Sorry for the speechmaking. It just explains why I feel the way I do and why I think taking the keys out of the hands of the Republicans is needed at this time. They’re like drunken frat boys at a party, and we can’t allow them to drive any longer. Even if the other guys might or might not be great drivers—at least they’re not hammered.

  • kiwiboi

    I’ll end my thoughts by saying I have NEVER been much of a McCain supporter.

    buc – never trust a guy who can’t high-five ;)

  • bucslim

    kiwi – (insert smiley icon) yeah.

  • Anon

    Randall,

    My gut feeling tells me you’re right about the so-called lack of experience not necessarily being critical. I think we could look back into history for a number of fine leaders who seemed to be handicapped by that limitation at the time of their initiation. Perhaps recently in my own country Blair might have come under that suspicion to begin with. If so, he surpassed it, certainly for most of his time in office.

    Confidence, intelligence, positive ideas, innate leadership ability, self-belief and personality can surely more than compensate. Perhaps a fairly clean slate might also come up with fresher writing.

    Yesterday I read in one of our newspapers a comment by a US journalist who had spent time in Brazil. He remarked that Lula and W had something dull in common, a lack of intellectual curiosity. I don’t think Obama can be accused of that.

    Finally, he seems to me to radiate one particularly important and inspirational quality: hope.

  • 734. Randall: I agree, a BIG loss is the only thing that will really get the attention of the big C, big R, Conservative right-wing Republicans.
    It might also get the attention of the big L, Liberal Democrats. That much power is, or should be, a sobering fact.
    Whatever happens, it’s time to recenter this nation. Time to come to grips with the fact that we’re in big trouble, and it took us 8 years to get here. It will take several years to get *out* of trouble.

  • Cedestra

    Anyone have any information on the so-called “dirty tricks” being played out? Is this something new? Is it one party more than the other?
    I find it funny that within a week of each other, the World Series ends and the months and months of campaigning ends, yet they play out similarly. Whether it’s voting or sports, we need to find a way to villianize another “team” and throw all your support in. At least the election seems to be gaining more momentum than the World Series did. (Frankly, I didn’t care. The one team I support was out with the championship.)
    Well, hopefully by this time tomorrow, we can all sit back and sigh in relief that it’s over. Whomever wins, we should all just remember that they are not “The Devil” or will bring on the end of the world, just help to shape politics in the next 4 years. Sure, that can create a huge dent in many aspects of our lives (see 2001-present), but we’ll be back here in four years anyway.
    Have fun, bring something to entertain yourselves in the likely to be long line that awaits you, and may the best man win.

  • Melina

    Hey, you guys need to go on you tube and type in Sarah Palin got pranked. These radio guys from Montreal got a hold of her by acting like the president of France. F her. Shes an IDIOT. And yes the USA is ready for a black president. I’m goin to the polls today, and Obama has my vote.

  • MT

    In a few hours this thread will be academic because we will have a Black President. We will also have:

    1) A better tax/econimic plan for most Americans
    2) A military focused on finding and killing the real terrorist trying to destroy the US.
    3) More respect from both allies and enemies from around the World.
    4) A real example of how anyone, regardless of their background can be President.
    5) More hope and optimism for the future of our Country.

    VOTE TODAY!! OBAMA/BIDEN!! VOTE TODAY!

  • Quiana

    Go Obama!! Yes we are ready and he will be president today!!!! He gives me hope that we ( African Americans) and anyone male, female or any given race can be anything we want to be!

  • Callie

    4) A real example of how anyone, regardless of their background can be President.

    Lincoln grew up working on a farm, barely able to read and write.

    Bill Clinton was partially raised by his grocer grandparents while his single mother (his father died) was in nursing school.

    Despite my party preferences, we can all agree these were two good presidents, who were both much better (in my opinion) than Obama can hope to be. People already HAVE examples of people overcoming odds to be President.

    Also:
    5) More hope and optimism for the future of our Country.
    I got that by voting McCain about an hour ago.

    Don’t even get me started on the other ones. Shouldn’t be hard to find the terrorist when you’re friends with him already..

  • copperdragon

    NOBAMA
    NOBAMA
    NOBAMA
    NOBAMA
    NOBAMA
    NOBAMA
    NOBAMA
    NOBAMA

    Vote McCain/Palin 2008

  • bucslim

    Sorry Callie, we can’t all agree on the Clinton Presidency.

  • rushfan

    745. Quiana – Go Obama!! Yes we are ready and he will be president today!!!! He gives me hope that we ( African Americans) and anyone male, female or any given race can be anything we want to be!

    Really? You hadn’t already gotten that message from Clarence Thomas? Oprah? Thomas Sowell? Bill Cosby? Venus and/or Serena Williams? Condi Rice?

  • 742. Cedestra: Anyone have any information on the so-called “dirty tricks” being played out? Is this something new?
    ****
    Absolutely NOT! My personal memories of Presidential campaigns go back to 1960, and I can recall, not so much dirty tricks as dirty campaigning. Jack Kennedy was Roman Catholic, so Dick Nixon, and the GOP, spread the word that if Kennedy was elected the White House would be operated by the Vatican. It didn’t work, of course, but there it was.
    During Nixon’s Presidency, dirty tricks were the norm.
    We’ve had a string of underhanded politicians, but before Nixon, as far as my history reading has taken me, while they might not have been the greatest Presidents, they weren’t “dirty”…with a few exceptions…the problem, Cedestra, is that the kind of man (or woman) who wants to be President, is power hungry.
    You’ve heard the old maxim:
    Power corrupts. Absolute power, corrupts absolutely.
    Of course, that isn’t universally true, not everyone who seeks the Presidency is power-mad. Some are just honestly altruistic.
    All in all though, dirty tricks are the norm. Expect them. You won’t be disappointed.

  • Vera Lynn

    Well, obviously so.

  • Anon

    segue,

    “During Nixon’s Presidency, dirty tricks were the norm.”

    And so ‘Tricky Dickie’! Hey Presto!

  • Anon

    This posted a few hours before the result will be known.

    It occurs to me a fun LV exercise in say a year or two’s time might be to take the Top 10 pro and Top 10 anti LV quotes (and I mean essentially thought-provoking, not rabid comments) about the winning candidate as a topic.
    They might be drawn from those above combined with others from Who Should be Next President.

    They would, of course, be attributed to their respective posters in their full glory. Probably as one quote per contributer. Then there could be a free-for-all over them based on the performance to that time of Obama or McCain, whoever.

  • liquidfire

    obama 08! sorry rednecks.

  • astraya

    Nixon has been smeared as “Tricky” partly because “Tricky” rhymes with “Dicky”. (Did anyone actually call him “Dicky” to his face?) “Tricky Lyndon” or “Tricky Gerald” would just never have caught on.

  • Vera Lynn

    Obama won. He’s in!!!

  • Vera Lynn

    284 to 146 electoral votes. Blew McCain away!!!

  • Yes, time to congratulate President Obama.

    So, to answer the question: Apparently yes, the US IS READY for a black president!

  • bucslim

    Well your humble commenter bucslim has been proven wrong. I wish Obama good luck. He’s gonna need it.

    To all of my adversaries and opponents here on our beloved web site, all is well, well maybe not ‘all.’ (I lost a shit wagon of my retirement money in the stock market) Here’s hoping the President Elect will cut me a break, instead of rewarding all the scallywag corrupt bankers, insurance and brokerage firms for pissing away my golden years, maybe he can bail my ass out when I’m at Shady Acres Retirement home Chronically Incontinent in his ‘share the wealth’ plan.

    Cheers, congrats, I’m not a sore loser. The sun will come up tomorrow (everybody!) betchor bottom dollar (unless it’s in stocks) That tomorrow, they’ll be sun . . .

  • kbenjy

    I absolutely never thought I would see this day. I am dumbfounded. All I can say is “wow”!

  • khen913

    liquidfire- who do you think you are. you are more bigoted with that statement than anyone of the “rednecks”.

    with that said, we will now find out if America is ready for a black president. this will be an interesting four years just because we have never seen this before.

  • That one guy

    In response to your question, “Is the US ready for a Black President”, yes. We are ready

  • That one guy

    In response to your question, “Is the US ready for a Black President”, yes. We are ready.

  • liquidfire

    lmao

  • Melina

    Woo Hoo! What an emotional day for the U.S. Hopefully some of our credibility and respect will be restored during Obama’s presidency. I voted for the first time today, and I hope I, and the rest of us that voted Obama, made the right choice. We shall see.

  • astraya

    Coming! Ready or not!!

  • astraya

    Does anyone remember a time when the pundits were predicting a Rice v H Clinton election?

  • kiwiboi

    Really? You hadn’t already gotten that message from Clarence Thomas? Oprah? Thomas Sowell? Bill Cosby? Venus and/or Serena Williams? Condi Rice?

    rushfan – well said.

  • kiwiboi

    Congratulations USA!

    Oh…and good luck with that $1 trillion trade deficit ;)

    But, seriously, you made a good choice. Let’s hope for a White House we can all, globally, respect again…free of nepotism and underhandedness (and, maybe, a fresh injection of common sense into various human rights-restricting legislation and practices).

    Go Obama!

  • kiwiboi

    buc – sorry about that pension plan, my friend. No solace…but you’re not alone there, believe me.

    And, BTW, not all bankers are corrupt scallywags ;)

  • bucslim

    kiwi – the fact that not all bankers are scallywags doesn’t cure my incontinence. Or weak stream or incomplete emptying or going often or sexual complications due to taking my medicine or the pee spot I get after going.

  • Quiana

    #749, Rushfan. Nice try to piss on my parade but it AINT gonna work, and yes I did say AINT. Of course I got the same message from the others, but we have came so far that everytime we get to add a new one to the list of its not only a celebration but its absolutely AMAZING. OBAMA!!!!!! Say it with me O B A M A!! Say what you want it AINT gonna get you no where with me, Im not one of the regular hot heads thats gonna write a novel to prove a point. On that no… OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • YogiBarrister

    Asked and answered! :)

  • rushfan

    Quiana ~ I had no intention of pissing on your anything, let alone your parade. Also, I live in Texas, “aint” is part of our official vocabulary. ;)
    My point was simpy that while it is obviously momentous for a black person to become leader of the free world, you made it sound like you felt like you *couldn’t* already be anything youy wanted to be. Which, of course, you could.

    Okay, so Obama is president-elect. Congrats to him and his supporters. While I ackowledge the historic nature of the election of a black person, I do not feel obligated to support him.

    If true conservatism had been on the ballot, we might have had a fighting chance. But, alas, republicans got stuck with McCain, who did not represent me any more than Obama. While I disagree vehemently with Obama on many issues and we live by a different ideology, only time will tell what kind of president he will choose to be *and* what kind of president congress will allow him to be.

    Kiwiboi ~ I think we might be “globally respected” already by the people who realize 1.how much money we spend helping nations in need after natural disasters (Iran, China, Pakistan, etc.) 2.American citizens on their own go abroad to provide assistance world-wide (doctors w/out borders, etc.) 3. We provide military assistance to nations in need (think Kuwait) I could go on and on and on. We do not need to alter our behavior to be more “popular.” Popularity is overrated. Terrorists want to kill us (and you) because of our freedom and what we choose to do with it. Not because of who is president of the US.

  • bucslim

    We’ll be fighting in the streets
    With our children at our feet
    And the morals that they worship will be gone
    And the men who spurred us on
    Sit in judgement of all wrong
    They decide and the shotgun sings the song

    I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution
    Smile and grin at the change all around
    Pick up my guitar and play
    Just like yesterday
    Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
    We don’t get fooled again

    The change, it had to come
    We knew it all along
    We were liberated from the fold, that’s all
    And the world looks just the same
    And history ain’t changed
    ‘Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

    I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution
    Smile and grin at the change all around
    Pick up my guitar and play
    Just like yesterday
    Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
    We don’t get fooled again
    No, no!

    I’ll move myself and my family aside
    If we happen to be left half alive
    I’ll get all my papers and smile at the sky
    Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
    Do ya?

    There’s nothing in the streets
    Looks any different to me
    And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
    And the parting on the left
    Are now parting on the right
    And the beards have all grown longer overnight

    I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution
    Smile and grin at the change all around
    Pick up my guitar and play
    Just like yesterday
    Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
    We don’t get fooled again
    Don’t get fooled again
    No, no!

    Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

    Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss

  • Mom424

    Rushfan: You are sadly deluded if you think that Americans are respected abroad. Why then would so many of you pretend to be Canadian when traveling?

    Congratulations to the American public. 8 years of only looking after big business and the wealthy has damn near driven you to the ground. Hopefully your new administration will take heed.

  • liquidfire

    I WANT TO SAY TO RANDALL, THANK GOD FOR AMERICANS LIKE YOU, FOR MONTHS NOW I HAVE PAID ATTENTION TO THE THINGS YOU HAVE SAID, AND YOU HAVE INSPIRED ME TO GET INVOLED WITH THIS ELECTION. I HOPE EVERY SINGLE DAY A CHILD IS BORN INTO AMERICA, WILL HAVE JUST HALF OF YOUR INTELLIGENCE …….. I AM A BLACK BEAUTIFUL WOMEN, AND HAVE ALWAYS SAW THROUGH COLOR. I HATED LIVING IN THE SOUTH, BECAUSE I’M ALWAYS IN AN INTERRACIAL RELATIONSHIP. PEOPLE HERE STILL FIND IT UNACCEPTABLE, BUT NOW I FEEL A BARRIER HAVE BEEN BROKEN, AND SOME WHITE AMERICANS WILL LOOK DEEPER THAN JUST COLOR. WE ARE ALL AMERICANS. I DON’T WANT TO GET RELIGION, BUT ONE OF THE LAST COMMANDMENTS WAS TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER…… I’M WAITNG….. ANYWAY THANK YOU RANDALL.

  • bucslim

    OK, liquidfire, we’re all relived this thing is over so we can get on with our lives, but. . . ease up on the caps lock will ya?

  • liquidfire

    BUCSLIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, THAT WAS FOR RANDALLLLLLLLLLL. I LOVE YOU BUCSLIMMMMMMMMMMM. LOL.

  • Randall

    liquidfire:

    Thank you very much, I’m touched. Honestly.

    Whatever any of us think of Obama, I do think that what we’re seeing here is something historic: the beginning of the slow death of racism in the United States. (And good riddance). I mean, I don’t want to sound airy-fairy here… racism is still strong and still with us, and it’ll still have a long life, I’m quite sure. But it’s caught a bad cough now, let’s put it that way.

    I was with my kids Election Night… we were driving to a local mall, listening to the radio reports of the early returns. The announcement came that Obama had won Pennsylvania–the only REAL chance had for McCain was to take Penn away from Barack, so McCain had failed and it was now more likely that McCain would lose–and I let out a big “YES!!!”

    My fourteen year old daughter laughed, and asked what it meant that Obama had won Pennsylvania. I explained it, and she nodded affirmatively in silent agreement that this was an excellent development.

    Then I remembered something I’d heard on the radio a couple days before. (I wish I could remember who said this/wrote it—but I can’t, sorry) Now… this is corny, I admit, but I also admit that I have a big soft spot in my heart for corny stuff like this.

    “Rosa sat so Martin could walk. Martin walked so Obama could run. Obama ran so my children could fly.”

    My daughter’s initial response was an approving, “that’s awesome.”

    Then there was a pause and she said, “dad. You *do* realize you’re not black, right?”

    :-)

  • liquidfire

    THAT WAS SOOOOOOO FUNNY. YOUR LITTLE GIRL, OUR FUTURE.

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    I have to back Mom up on this, rush. To an extent. The fact is that all three of you are correct: kiwiboi, you, and Mom.

    The point you miss is that regardless of ANYTHING good the US has done in the past—including right up to today—the policies, attitudes, and behavior of the Bush administration has tarnished our image badly. WE ourselvs may feel that we mean well in the world. We may demonstrate this, we feel, to what should be the satisfaction of any reasonable persons. BUT the rest of the world is not obliged to agree with our point of view in this regard, if it feels that, regardless of some good deeds we do, we are also behaving arrogantly and imperiously.

    Now, you might not agree that we’ve been behaving thusly—but the fact is that world opinion has leaned heavily towards the view that we *have* for the last few years. Is the rest of the world just deluded?

    No, clearly not. The simple truth is that most of the world appreciates the United States and all it does… but like any of us, no matter how *nice* a benefactor can be, we don’t like it when said benefactor begins to act in ways which appear imperious and harsh, and perhaps self-serving.

    But we’ve already seen in the world reactions to Obama’s election that the world, for the most part, doesn’t hate us—it simply wants the US back the way it was before Bush–a good partner, a fair and just friend, a reliable force for good.

  • rushfan

    “You are sadly deluded if you think that Americans are respected abroad. Why then would so many of you pretend to be Canadian when traveling?”

    I dunno. Maybe because crazy people would kill us just for being American. Just a guess. There is nothing we can do to stop terrorists or crazy random people from hating Americans. Also, you couldn’t pay me to claim to be Canadian. Oh, and *you* are sadly deluded if you think that Canadians are respected in America. :)

  • Anna11

    mate, its not just terrorists and crazy people who hate americans…

  • kiwiboi

    I think we might be “globally respected” already by the people who realize 1.how much money we spend helping nations in need after natural disasters (Iran, China, Pakistan, etc.)

    rushfan – really? Of the 22 UN Development Program nations providing foreign aid to developing nations and to fight extreme poverty, guess where the USA stands in the official rankings? Let me tell you : 21st.

    And if you want some additional perspective, for each dollar donated as aid, the US spends $32 on defence. Oh, and a hefty proportion of US aid goes to Israel.

    2.American citizens on their own go abroad to provide assistance world-wide (doctors w/out borders, etc.)

    Which is, of course, true. But it is true of most developed nations.

    3. We provide military assistance to nations in need (think Kuwait)

    Kuwait? True; but it is equally true for Russia, the UK, and other nations…all of whom maintain formal defence relationships with Kuwait. And if you are referring to the 1990 liberation, let me remind you that the liberators comprised a multinational coalition.

    And, of course, the magnanimity that the US (and the UK amongst others) maintains for Kuwait has nothing, of course, to do with those enormous oil and gas reserves…

    I could go on and on and on. We do not need to alter our behavior to be more “popular.” Popularity is overrated.

    Who mentioned “popularity”? Because I didn’t.

    Terrorists want to kill us (and you) because of our freedom and what we choose to do with it. Not because of who is president of the US.

    Firstly, I never even implied that terrorists hate the US because of who the president is; where did this come from?

    And, if you really believe that terrorists want to kill us because of “our freedom” then you are being deliberately fucking stupid (and I say “deliberately”, because I know from reading your postings from time to time that you are very far from stupid). Start by reading some authoritative histories of the middle east if you want a clue to why terrorists hate the USA (Britain, too, I hasten to add).

    And I trust you’ll forgive me for my cynicism when I remind you about the thousands of fools in New York City, in particular, who would happily sing Danny Boy and donate funds to the IRA every Friday night in their drunken state because their dear old great-great grandmother emigrated from Ireland. Well, I was in London as those particular terrorists were regularly letting off bombs purchased with those funds and which indiscriminately killed innocent people. Strange how the romance of this particular type of charitable giving dried up after NYC got a taste of it on 9/11. Don’t moralise to me about the US and terrorism.

    And my comments regarding respect for the White House is more to do with clearing out the last 8 years of the grotesque erosions of civil liberties that Bush’s example has led a number of western governments to inflict on their citizens since 9/11 (you Americans can look to the Patriot Act, Extraordinary Rendition, Gitmo, torture etc), blatant nepotism (that lady friend of Bush’s he wanted as a Supreme Court judge / Cheney and his buddies seemingly dipping their bread etc.) and other ancillary practices (Plame etc) that have tainted the White House. Let’s (UK included) welcome the likelihood that we will get some integrity and respect back into government.

    Overall, I think that Obama is a charismatic and honest guy; a breath of fresh air. America needs these qualities now, more than ever, in its president…Republican or Democrat.

  • rushfan

    Partner, we Americans don’t live our lives to be liked by people who know nothing about us. Buddy, people who come to America from oppressed lands across the globe appreciate the joys and wonders and freedom of America and diversity of Americans. You are free to hate, friend, but it’s not gonna get you anywhere. Cheers.

  • kiwiboi

    But we’ve already seen in the world reactions to Obama’s election that the world, for the most part, doesn’t hate us—it simply wants the US back the way it was before Bush–a good partner, a fair and just friend, a reliable force for good.

    Randall – amen to that.

  • rushfan

    ^^ that was for Anna11

  • MPW

    I’ll finally be relieved when Mr. Bush is gone for good, I wish Inauguration day was sooner. I hope Bush decides to stay out of politics for good and maybe go back to baseball or something, although the Movie “W.” was fairly entertaining even though it was ficionalized. It would be best for him and the rest of the world if he retires. Congratulations to Barack Obama!

  • ChaoticPython

    Yes we can. Yes we DID.
    The majority of America is ready for a black president, based on the fact that we have elected him.
    Now we just need to lock him away somewhere surrounded by Secret Service men so some psycho can’t go and prove me wrong.

  • ohrmets

    I am SO proud of my country!

  • Mom424

    Rushfan; Not respected maybe, but envious, you bet. Ask a few of the regulars who cannot afford to go to a doctor let alone the specialists that they require. Funny how an American states that they have no respect for Canadians; probably why the rest of the world holds us in such high regard. XD

  • Mom424

    Oh and I answered my own question. American’s pretend to be Canadians because they can’t nail that Kiwi accent.

  • kiwiboi

    American’s pretend to be Canadians because they can’t nail that Kiwi accent.

    Mom – LOL !!

  • Ah, Canada… Sometimes I wish I still lived there.

    Must say, as I have just gotten the news that my Christmas may very well be spent on a plane headed for Iraq, that I am overjoyed with the selection of Obama for president. I volunteered for the service, so I can’t really complain about the fact that I must deploy… But I must admit; I’m scared shitless (pardon my language).

    I can only hope that he has the chance to improve our country’s image, as we so desperately need. And I won’t go into deep detail, but I vastly agree with all that was said in Kiwiboi’s post at number 785.

  • kiwiboi

    Must say, as I have just gotten the news that my Christmas may very well be spent on a plane headed for Iraq, that I am overjoyed with the selection of Obama for president. I volunteered for the service, so I can’t really complain about the fact that I must deploy… But I must admit; I’m scared shitless (pardon my language).

    Anon. E. Mouse – I’m real sorry to hear about the timing. As for being “scared shitless”…well, you’re a human being, uniform or not…it’s part of the job description. I’d be worried if you weren’t apprehensive. Besides, think of how much sweeter coming home will feel!

    And I won’t go into deep detail, but I vastly agree with all that was said in Kiwiboi’s post at number 785.

    Nice of you to say. The ironic thing is that, politically, rushfan and myself are probably closely compatible; I’m very right-wing and libertarian, yet people keep mistaking me for a damn lefty-liberal!

    Anyhows, Anon., and more importantly, I hope they rethink that unfortunate deployment date; and be sure to keep us all up to date with developments.

  • bucslim

    Anon E. Mouse – thank you for your sacrifice. You have my admiration and respect.

  • B Wise

    A Black President? NO, he’s an American President!!! Just like all the previous President’s!!! He just happens to have some “so-called” Black ancestry. I’m sure if you ask him, he will say he’s an American first!

  • B Wise

    Hi Kiwiboi! Just read your post #785. Not bad. I’ll add some info to what you had posted. Approx. 10 years ago, we, the U.S. military, went down to a South American country and killed more than 30,000 people to bring an “drug” lord to trial here. I believe it made the back page of the New York Times…maybe. So the U.S. must first stop participating in “terrorism”, before we condemn it! Perhaps with Obama as President, and Democrats in more influencial position, the “warmongering” of the U.S. will finally come to a halt.

  • kiwiboi

    Perhaps with Obama as President, and Democrats in more influencial position, the “warmongering” of the U.S. will finally come to a halt.

    B Wise – I think you’ll find that if the events you describe happened, as you say, 10 years ago, you had a Democrat as your President.

    Note, too, that I’m not being anti-USA in my comments; I was merely responding to some points directed at me. And, I’m sure that many nations might be accused of the abuse of military power throughout their recent histories.

  • Sedulous

    I’ve only read bits and pieces of the current discussion but I’m going to add something anyway.

    I have no doubt that throughout the world Americans are hated by different people for any number of different reasons. Some hate us for our success and freedom, some hate us because of Bush, some hate us for our military, some hate us for our culture, and some hate us for our economy.

    Still there are many throughout the world who love Americans.

    In my short 25 years I have had the privilige to meet, speak with, and even befriend people from Kenya, Rwanda, South Africa, Brazil, Chile, Mexico, Canada, England, Poland, Germany, Spain, Russia, China, S. Korea, Philippines, France, Iraq, New Zealand, Australia, Malaysia, India, Israel, Sri Lanka, Japan, Denmark, Egypt, Fiji, Indonesia, and Vietnam. With all of these people, I was never prejudged for being an American. I found that smile translates into a positive for every country and culture. That being polite, showing interest in their culture, and making even a bad attempt to speak their language can negate any preconceived opinions.

    So I know that the discussion was about how people view America as a whole but you can’t do much to control the government beyond a vote. But you can do wonders by being a good ambassador for America….or any country that you are from.

  • Anna11

    Just stating a fact, Rushfan. Could you please stop being so condescending? Your head should be on your shoulders not up your arse.

  • i just want to say to all the first time black voters…..

    if i ever here one of you bitches talking shit about white folk being racist im going to fucking lose my mind. The record level of new black voters, some of who have never voted for 30 OR 40 YEARS!!!!!! is more racist than anything ive ever done or said… they only voted because it was a black canidate…i guarrentee it. Ive even asked around where i work and live and that was the response i got 90 percent of the time. so fuck all of you…racist bastards.

    McCain in 2012…we’ll need him to fix the fucked up-ness that Obama the Drama Mama caused…

  • Mom424

    longball: He’ll be dead by then. (not that I wish it, very honorable man) Did you not read the demographics? The youth vote (also in record numbers)was at least as important as the black vote. Also from what I understand the Cuban vote also went to Obama, traditionally a republican stronghold. Why is that you think? Certainly not because he’s black. Maybe because he is sincere? and offers hope? Could that be another reason the black voters came out in droves? I don’t recall such numbers making it to the polls for Jesse Jackson. Pretty sure he’s black too.

    Pretty big chip on your shoulder, I think. Maybe you should direct your ire at George W. Bush and his cronies. The American public finally had enough of his manipulation and outright lies. Obama offers an alternative; sincerity and hope. He will need the help of all Americans if he is to succeed. Even you.

  • Anon

    To add a frivolous touch of lightness, but still fully on-topic:

    We have a truly splendid political and social cartoonist contributing to our Chilean daily paper. Quirkily, his name is Jimmy Scott. His sharp humour is infallibale and guaranteed to draw a laugh on the dullest of days.

    Today’s offering sees Barack and Michelle standing linked together and seen from behind. By their side is a black painter and decorator getting ready to renovate for them. His overalls are paint-spattered. He is carrying a paint tin and roller. They are all standing on the lawn looking towards the WHITE House. The painter says, “Mister President, Might I make a suggestion …?”

    Sorry I can’t share the peerless draughtsmanship with you.

  • astraya

    Anon E: my brother-in-law (then in the Australian army) spent two tours in Iraq and was perfectly safe. Best wishes from at least me, and possibly everyone here.
    Sedulous: Please make the very careful distinction between “many people love Americans” and “many people love America”. I do the former (most of the time, anyway – if I don’t, it’s because of some other characteristic completely independent of their Americanity) without in any way doing the latter.

    A couple of days ago, I stumbled across a website called “if the world could vote” (or something like that), that allowed people to “vote” for Obama or McCain. The score was something like 83%-17%. The only two countries where McCain scored a majority were Albania and Niue (where one person voted).

  • Anon

    Mom,

    “He’ll be dead by then. (not that I wish it, very honorable man)”

    Gor blimey, thanks a bundle, duckie! Same age as yours truly, who’s got half a lifetime’s work to finish yet before he pops his clogs, meets his Maker, shuffles his coil, drops off his perch, pushes up daisies, snuffs it, feeds the worms, kicks the bucket, bites the dust, goes belly up, and in all other ways gives a faithful impression of the legendary Monty Python parrot.

  • astraya

    Anon: Same age as yours truly

    Yes, but with military injuries, imprisonment-of-war and torture on his health record.

    half a lifetime’s work to finish

    72+(1/2 of 72) = 108! Good luck. It’s possible.

  • Anon

    astraya,

    I think I’d better step up the work rate rather than bank on those years, Bob Hope and the Queen Mum notwithstanding!

    Ah, but who knows how I’ve suffered either at the hands of mine enemies.

  • Anon

    “Yes, but with military injuries, imprisonment-of-war and torture on his health record.”

    If indeed not good enough to win it for him, his performances on the hustings looked pretty impressive and vigorous to me for a 72-year-old, and very far from death’s door. Certainly a fair chunk of America reckoned he’d make it through to 2012. (Little indication they were voting him proxy for S.P. anyway!)

  • Many thanks to all of you who have wished me well. It’s truly appreciated, and I will be sure to keep you updated.

    I’m not really sure whether or not I was really afraid of McCain dying or not… I just know that the thought of Palin running the country thoroughly scared me.

  • MOM242-

    “Pretty big chip on your shoulder, I think. Maybe you should direct your ire at George W. Bush and his cronies. The American public finally had enough of his manipulation and outright lies. Obama offers an alternative; sincerity and hope. He will need the help of all Americans if he is to succeed. Even you.”

    Even Me? Hell no. And I loved Bush. He was the shit. Took action instantly and put out a message. Dont fuck with the USA! And as far as the demographics, i dont care who else voted for him or didnt. He won. Kudos. I’m just saying i dont want to here any more “african american decendants” call me rascist because i voted for McCain. Even at my place of work, where politics are not even allowed to talked about, i see young blacks doing the oldschool black power fist pump, similar to the hitler salute, lol, (heh, sorry) and it pisses me off…thats what i want to stop.

  • Team

    As I said before, America was ready for a black president but not this one… He moved to the center to get elected and with him, Pelosi, Reid and Frank running this country, it will be only a matter of time before Obama will be moving back to his liberal/leftist ways…

  • B Wise

    Anon E. Mouse, post #811, I couldn’t put any better!!! Palin is a complete “moron” when it comes to the National stage!!! Placing her on the ticket was a total “Hollywood” move…that completely backfired!

  • Mom424

    Anon; My apologies, and I was being a tad flip. He has had 3 heart attacks though, so odds are definitely not in his favour; buy then again he will be well tended. I was in fact quite sincere in my praise of the man, he served and continues to serve his country well.

  • Callie

    B Wise

    a “moron?”

    Why the quotes? Is she moronic in an ironic way? Only a moron some of the time?

    Here are some options:

    Learn the proper use of quotation marks, even when using them metaphorically.

    Run for Governor of Alaska. Beat out that “moron” (ah..a direct quote) and feel free to then call her whatever you want.

    -OR-

    Leave. Her. Be. This woman has been raked over the coals, while the other side’s gaffes (57 states? FDR television anyone?) and inexperience were completely ignored. If your side won, celebrate. Be proud of yourself and your country. Don’t focus your attention back on someone who lost. Whoever heard of being a sore winner? Seriously.

  • B Wise

    Has nothing to do with being a sore winner. Just shows that McCain is NOT capable of making the right decisions, and that Obama is the right President, I’d have preferred Hillary! (excuse the quotes, can’t print in bold)

  • Callie

    It shows Obama was the most popular candidate, and if you ever took a look at that sign that was above all of our classroom chalkboards “what is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular”

  • Mom424

    Callie; The people who are treating Sarah Palin with the most contempt are the republicans. Yup all her fault McCain lost. I thought her a flake too, but she doesn’t deserve that kind of treatment from those supposed to be her allies.

    I guess it is just easier to blame her than G.W.

  • Anon

    Mom,

    I was pushing the envelope a bit for fun myself, so a *not really necessary* gracious apology gracefully accepted! And my sincere wishes for you to make it to 72 too, and well beyond. With good health, physical strength and a sound mind it feels pretty much like any other age, if a smidgeon more breathless: but there are even ample compensations for that. (If only I still LOOKED as I did at any other relatively earlier age!)

    It was my original intention to ask whether you had any contributing data on the longevity of McCain’s forbears, or his health, which you have now answered. I really had no idea he was three h.a.’s to the bad. (There’s one of the compensations. Even at 72 one adds some new chunk of knowledge every day!) Am I mistaken in finding that a truly irresponsible record both for being put up and for standing in the presidential race? Modern medicine is certainly pretty remarkable, but even so, we’re looking at arguably the world’s most potentially stressful occupation …

  • sue

    I wanted to post a comment after the verdict was in.It looks like America IS ready for a black president after all.God Bless him,I think he’ll do a great job..

  • JayBe

    444. Randall
    acording to what you said up there. Some people here believe that Obama will mean the end of the neocon power started in Nixon era. So maybe we’re witnessing the end of that absolute power.

    To everybody else:
    Just if you mind about what the world think about your beloved America. I think most European vision on the candidates was that:
    McCain was OK, but Sarah Palin represented ALL what we hate of America.
    Obama represents ALL we love of America. And Biden is the best right hand to accomplish that change

    Maybe we’re wrong about them. But just to make you know…

  • copperdragon

    WOULDN’T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR NEW PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?

    “My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of the Iraq regime has been completed.

    Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete.

    This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq. This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now time to begin the reckoning.

    Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria, Australia, and Poland are some of the countries listed there.

    The other list contains every one not on the first list. Most of the world’s nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.

    Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war. THEN EVERY YEAR THEREAFTER IT’LL GO TO OUR SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM SO IT WONT GO BROKE IN 20 YEARS.

    The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hellholes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption.

    Need help with a famine ? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France .

    In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home. On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth.

    Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France or maybe China .

    I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France, Germany, and Russia. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon ne chance, mez a mies.

    I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don’t care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York.

    A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing us off for a change.

    Mexico is also on List 2. Its president and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra thousand tanks and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put ’em? Yep, border security.

    Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty – starting now.

    We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately, we’ll be drilling for oil in Alaska – which will take care of this country’s oil needs for decades to come. If you’re an environmentalist who opposes this decision, I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move there.

    It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, ‘darn tootin.’

    Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America.

    To the nations on List 1, a final thought: Thank you guys. We owe you and we won’t forget.

    To the nations on List 2, a final thought: You might want to learn to speak Arabic.

    God bless America. Thank you and good night.”

    If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

  • B Wise

    Hey Copperdragon!

    Nice post! If only it were that simple! As you point out however, it’s not the people of these other coutries, it is the governments who have divided, and keep divided, the people of the world. Just as our politicians no longer represent the people, only their own interests, $700 Billion dollar “bailout”? WOW, that would go a long way toward solving education, health care, homelessness, etc., instead, where did it go? Not my pocket, now we have to pay more taxes!!! For what? Everything is getting cut-back!!!

    Except of course, the military and police!!!

  • Randall

    Copperdragon:

    Grow up.

  • copperdragon

    Randall:

    What problem, specifically, do you have with my post?

    Are you a fan of the war in Iraq?
    Are you a fan of social security going broke? (or are you already collecting?)
    Are you a fan of NATO’s policies?
    Are you a fan of diplomats and their attitude of indulgence?
    Are you a fan of NAFTA?
    Are you against focusing on the interior instead of helping everyone else?

    If growing up means being a pompous ass like you, i’ll pass.

  • Mom424

    Copperdragon: What are you upset that our Prime Minister at the time wasn’t stupid enough to believe Bush? That he knew Bush was lying about WMD’s in Iraq? That he knew that Al Qaeda was in fact a far greater threat to Hussein and his rule than they ever were to the Americans? That there is no way he would have been funding them?

    Also you would have all American troops pulled out tomorrow? Leave the civilians with no protection after destroying what security they had? Did you know that before the war Iraqi females could hold public office? That they were educated and were doctors? Lawyers? and the like?. Now they dare not due to increased fundamentalist presence?

    Like Randall said – grow the fuck up!

  • Mom424

    By the way Copperdragon the United States gives diddly squat to foreign aid. .14% and you wish to decrease it? 22nd on a list of 22 developed nations. Pretty shameful that the richest country on earth is also the greediest. Suggest you do a little research to see exactly where your tax dollars go. Cutting what minuscule amount you contribute to the rest of the world is not going to do anything to rescue your social security system. (15 to 20% of your GNP depending on the source).

  • Randall

    Copperdragon:

    Pompous ass? Hardly. If anyone’s been pompous here, it was you in that absurd post of yours.

    On the one hand, you seem to be implying that you’re against the war in Iraq (you asked me if I was a fan of it–which I am obviously not–as though to indicate that you yourself were not) and yet you then proceed to childishly call to task those nations who were ALSO against it, as though they were wrong to not support Bush in his misguided and criminally stupid enterprise–in fact you clearly delineate that they are now, if not enemies, at least no longer valued friends, and will be punished for taking a stance that they thought was right! Where’s the logic in this? There is none.

    If a friend is doing a stupid, perhaps even illegal thing, you don’t simply follow him into the muck and mire out of friendship. That’s quite simply asinine, and shows that you have no backbone or sense of right and wrong. The war in Iraq was a totally unnecessary, misguided, ill-considered affair, and many nations disagreed with Bush’s insistence in prosecuting it. They have no obligation to support the US right or wrong, Copperdragon—and neither do you, if you’re a responsible and free citizen of a supposedly free country. In fact, quite the reverse–it is your RESPONSIBILITY to oppose the actions of your country if you feel your government is doing wrong.

    So what the hell is your stance on this? It all sounds (besides being completely illogical) like the usual childish populism one hears from people who talk out of both sides of their mouth—because on the one hand they’re right there complaining about their government if they feel it’s doing wrong, but GOD FORBID a foreign national or government in turn criticize said government—how dare they! And they then call for the usual isolationist bullshit—“America first, let’s look to ourselves, let’s close our borders and throw all the foreigners out, yadda yadda yadda…” Childish nonsense. We’re all citizens of the goddamn world besides being citizens of our individual nations—and in fact this is even MORE so in a nation like the United States, where the actions of our society and government can–and usually does–have wide-ranging effects on the rest of the world whether we want them to or not. And closing ourselves off the way you jingoistically call for is not only absurdly silly, but impractical and unrealizable to boot. The days when the US can stand alone are long, long past—if they were ever real to begin with, which I frankly doubt—and if you don’t believe this, then let’s practice what you preach and see what happens to this vaunted economy of ours, and what happens to our blessed little place in the sun when we turn our backs on friends and allies and tell them to forge for themselves. Our international relationships are a two-way street, not at our command and whim. And what someone like you fails to see is that other nations DO have a right to disagree with us and even condemn us and tell us to fuck off if they feel we’re doing wrong.

    Your whiny bullshit about how “a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet” is just that—bullshit. In point of fact, when the US has behaved reasonably, honorably, intelligently and openly, we’ve had the great friendship and loyalty and ADMIRATION of most of the world, or at least half of it. And look at the enthusiasm Obama’s election has engendered around the world—the fact is that people in other countries are HUNGRY for that kind of leadership from America again–as opposed to the last eight years of hostility, bullying, haphazard, illogical behavior and obstinate unilateralism. The behavior of the Bush administration hasn’t been that of a good friend or even a good ally—it’s been that of an asshole government that says it’s going to do what it wants and “you’re either with us or against us.” Which is a comic-book-style attitude, not a thoughtful, grown up form of statesmanship. And the world has had a right to call us to task for it.

    But when the US has led intelligently and reasonably, we’ve had cooperation and friendship from the greater part of humanity.

    So cut the crap. You sound like a half-assed teenager who hasn’t got a grasp of reality, but instead thinks that it’s his way or the highway. And then gets pissed when people rebel against his demand for respect and attention. Pathetic.

  • bucslim

    Randall,

    The only problem with your last post that I take issue with was that most of us were for going to Iraq. Congress voted for it, and most of our allies were with us. It was only after these deceptions were discovered that things went to shit. By then it was too late to back out. There’s little reasoning to say that it wasn’t a mistake, but I’m optimistic.

    Not trying to pick a fight, but it’s a fact that most of the Dems would like to forget that they cast a vote for us to go in there. And most of them have been running from that fact ever since. (I recall us tangling on this point before, just trying to state my opinion)

    Lest you think I’m a homer for the Bush policies here, in some respects I think he’s been dealt a raw deal, but yes mistakes were regrettably made. But I challenge you to see that it hasn’t been a complete disaster. There is plenty of progress being made, to which our new President has a chance to benefit from.

  • Anon

    What’s copperdragon’s proposal to treat a nation which gives support for Afghanistan, but not Iraq? Ah, we know from Canada. All or nothing. Love me, love my dog.

    buc,

    How do you view the very considerable external rejection of the Iraq action by numbers of nations which are often inclined to support US policy with sympathy, as many did for, say, Afghanistan just mentioned above? Is it possible that the US population had to a very large degree been made hair-trigger happy by those recent traumatic events, and so was very easy to push into action without overmuch resistance or questioning? I certainly remember the intense debate and scepticism about WMD that went on in Chile at the time (Chile not supporting the action, of course). If the administration did in fact cynically exploit such a psychological state of its populace, it would seem to me it has a lot more to answer for than has that same populace.

  • bucslim

    Anon – yeah I see your point. I think a large portion of the world sees us as cowboys. As far as I know, we initially had support for the action. And let’s face it, Saddam had it coming. He’d been pissing on Superman’s cape for too long. If he would have just let the inspector’s finish their job, it’s possible he might be breathing today.

    Bush and the Republicans (myself included) are answering for their sins, by being shit-hammered at the voting booth. Republicans are about as popular as the Bee Gees. Sure everyone loved them when Disco was king, but now they’re just a sad reminder of a trite and embarrassing fad. Hopefully they’ll get their shit together and figure it out, but I’m skeptical. My party pretty much abandoned me this time around.

  • Anon

    buc,

    The problem at the outset, I believe, was that Dad had shit on junior. In other words everybody wanted Saddam out and Dad goofed up a perfect excuse and opportunity during Gulf 1, when Sadman was eating onions, eggs and cabbage as fuel to propel himself AfastAP away from the cowboys. But you (we) just slipped the six-shooters back in the holsters, went away and let him start all over again.

    I’m not going to deny I hated so much what the bugger did to the Marsh Arabs and Kurds, apart from anyone else he didn’t like (a perfect imitation mini-Hitler or -Stalin). I badly wanted to believe Dubya myself and see Sadman finished off by the rest of us as knights in shining armour. But the armour was tarnished and rusty, and Bush has ended up as the second sad man. As Randall has said, no one could deny the benefits for, say, the Iraqi Kurds, but the price (literally and figuratively) has just been too high. I’ve taken oil out of the equation as I simply don’t know enough about that scenario. But I’m assuming Saudi is the only really serious source to worry about in the region.

    But whatever my political sympathies, as a sympathetic outsider I want to see you team get its act together again. Stan needs Ollie, (or the donkey needs the elephant). Democracies don’t usually work so well when one of a virtual two-party system is off the piste. Besides which, that situation isn’t healthy for democracy, full stop.

  • copperdragon

    ooO {hmm..should I refrain from personal attacks and address the issues, or should I sink to their level and take potshots? what the hell, its only the internet}

    I think its so adorable that the King and Queen of Listverse (randall and mom) responded to my post from their matching his and hers laptops. Did you guys even kiss each other good morning first?

    First off, let me say that my post was not mine originally. I found it on a political pundit site and added Obama’s name.

    Randall:
    My stances are —
    Yes, I’m against the war in Iraq.
    Yes, I’m for pulling back our troops, leaving the area to fend for itself, and focusing our efforts on our own problems for a change. We have enough of them – education, economy, homelessness, crime, border issues, poor roads/bridges, unemployment and jobs going overseas.
    Yes, I’m against the failure of the social security system. I would like it to still be around when I’m old enough to collect.
    I’m not in favor of drilling for more oil, as I favor alternative energies. But if we are cutting the apron strings from foreign oil dependence, then its time to break into the piggy bank of our own oil reserves, until alternatives are stable.

    Its time for America to retreat from world affairs a little and fortify its own position, so we can emerge strong and be a respected leader again.

    If what Mom says is true, Iraq was better off before we interfered, and would presumably be better off without us.
    Unfortunately, I dont think it was our presence that took away the rights women had in the area. It was their government.

    Also note that the post says “thank you” to our allies, and is only calling out the others that derided us but still expect our help.

    Other nations are more than welcome to have a different opinion of world events and actions to be taken; and they are more than welcome to handle their own problems.

    Mom424:
    .14% of billions of dollars is still a lot of money. When was the last time another nation came to our rescue? Did anyone help during Hurricane Katrina? California wildfires?
    How much did France spend on helping us? Mexico and Canada are our neighbors, and they don’t even help. Why? Because they’re too poor? Have their own problems? So do we.

  • Dante

    we’re ready for a black president thats for sure, just not Obama

  • LGK

    I can’t wait to see how Barack Obama handles the Russians.He will probably offer them some money or free healthcare in hopes that they will just go away.His lack of expireance is terrifying.

  • Anon

    LGK,

    Er, I’d just like to point out that *expireance* is an extremely unfortunate (Sam Goldwyn style of) typo indeed. Assuming and hoping to blazes it is a typo. Perhaps you’d care to reassure us?

  • Anon

    And he didn’t have to offer the Republicans some money or free healthcare to hope they would go away, did he?

  • Anon, I think you can tell from the balance of the post that it isn’t a typo, just a basic lack of knowledge.

  • Anon

    segue,

    I decided to leave that clear option open!

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    “The only problem with your last post that I take issue with was that most of us were for going to Iraq.”

    Well, okay, hang on a second here, then.

    A) not all of us WERE for going to Iraq (I wasn’t) because we didn’t feel the evidence was sufficient that Iraq was trying to build WMDs, nor did we feel that the Bush administration had done enough diplomacy to get other nations on board with the idea of military intervention. But these points are really irrelevant, because I think what you’re talking about here is Congress, and you’re right—Congress went along with the plan.

    B) But then I’m not sure what relevancy THAT has. I mean, are we talking about who’s to blame, or no? I’m not being argumentative on this… what I’m saying is, I guess I can’t figure out what your point is. I feel the administration bears more of the blame/responsibility because they maintained that they had the intelligence on the issue of WMDs, but just couldn’t share it publicly. Congress went along, trusting the president’s word. But let’s leave THAT aside and say, sure–both sides are to blame, Republicans and Democrats… but then… okay… what does that mean? The war was still wrong, still a mistake.

    “Congress voted for it, and most of our allies were with us.”

    Well… I wouldn’t say “most” of our allies were with us… I’d say the reaction from our allies ran the gamut from supportive (the Brits) to lukewarm (some of the other members of NATO) to downright opposed (the French).

    “Not trying to pick a fight, but it’s a fact that most of the Dems would like to forget that they cast a vote for us to go in there.”

    Well yes, that’s true of course.

    But I still maintain—most of the Congress in BOTH parties voted for the war because the administration deceived and distorted and took advantage of the feelings of the times to get its way on the issue. Now, yes, I’d rather Congress had had more backbone then, but it doesn’t negate the fact that I think a lot of them voted for the war based on what they thought was the right thing to do, in turn based on what they were told BY the administration. Later, when the deceptions began to be aired and the strategy was clearly going awry, people began to back away and say, “we’ve been had.”

    No time now, I’ll come back to your question about progress being made and so on.

  • bucslim

    Randall – I had something really cool and righteous to rebut your points, but the server went down right as I was posting it.

  • Randall

    buc:

    Sometimes I really hate technology.

  • Cyn

    er..yeah. sorry ’bout that guyz. had been playing bouncing servers. *fingers crossed* all is well now.
    :)

  • I’ve been offline most of the day. Everything seems to be just about where I left it.
    Continuity is so reassuring!

  • Anon

    buc,

    I’ve learned my lesson the hard way more than once. I ALWAYS reflexively copy every comment before posting now, and often in the course of writing if it’s a long one, ‘cos I know how stupidly I can press the wrong tit. (Goes to *Edición*, hits *copiar*, and prepares to post.)

  • astraya

    Anon: At work I use a Korean edition of Microsoft Word. I’m very limited in what I can do, because I can’t read the menu items. Somehow I’ve turned on the command that shows dots in spaces and arrows for “hard return” and “tab”. It is so distracting! Yesterday I asked a co-teacher if she could turn it off, but she uses another, native Korean, word processing program and doesn’t know how.

    On-topic: some people recently are still saying “no” or “not this one”. As if it matters at this stage!

  • bucslim

    Wow, finally something we can all agree on!

    Anon – your post made me chortle because I used to do that all the time in the early days of the ‘verse because during it’s growing pains, the server was a lot more unstable than it is now. I haven’t done it in a while because I haven’t had to.

    But as to your comment, ‘pressing the wrong tit’ – you sound like that’s a bad thing.

  • Anon

    buc,

    Depends whether or not Anita is watching. Apropos, there’s a priceless Fawlty Towers moment along those lines involving Basil and an Aussie girl. astraya is bound to know it.

  • Mr.Crow

    This has to be the first your view to become academic. If only the same could be said for the one about the existence of God.

  • bootlicker

    You know, I’ve learned to just scroll past Randall’s posts. He is just one of those “if you don’t agree with me you’re an idiot” kind of people.

  • Actually, Randall is remarkably intelligent and highly knowledgeable.
    Yes, he can have an abrasive manner if you behave intellectually badly; that is, make make statements which are patently false, and insist they are true.
    Randall respects intelligence, and people who are truly interested in learning.
    You can disagree with Randall safely if you have the facts to back up your argument. However, Randall is usually correct.

  • Randall

    Segue:

    Thanks for the defense.

    I swear, the people who say things like this person (“bootlicker”) did obviously aren’t really reading me carefully in the first place.

  • You’re welcome, Randall. I know people like this don’t read you carefully in the first place, which is why I phrased my post the way I did.
    Anyway, you’d do the same for me ( you *have* done the same for me), and that’s what friends do.

  • Christian

    Yes they are. What makes a black man any different from a white man though? Nothing really, the color of their skin, but that’s really it. The idiotic racists in this country need to get past there hate of people that are different from them in any way and get used to what our country is coming to, racially speaking. We are becoming more and more supportive of diversity everyday and it only took a few hundred years for it to start. Is the United States ready for a black president? It depends on who you ask, but I believe it is something that is necessary and yes, the U.S. is absolutely ready for a black president.

  • Profeh

    I’m sorry to disagree… I’m only offering my humble, non-american opinion here… I don’t think the U.S. should be patting itself on the back just yet. I think Obama’s a good choice, but I just don’t think he’s BLACK. I think when speaking of black people in the U.S., the adjective goes beyond mere skin coloration, to an entire cultural history and background. I think an example of this could be made if one would consider a person of African origin whose ancestors never crossed the Atlantic, but lived in Europe. If this individual then travelled to the U.S. as an adult, does any of you believe he’s black the way American blacks are black? Is Giuliani Italian? How Italian is he? If the whole discussion centers on skin pigmentation – this is my point – then it’s an incredibly shallow discussion, unworthy of comment. But if, on the other hand, the discussionj actually takes into account the enormous depth of content in the appellation “black” then I just don’t see how it applies to Obama. Again, I mean no disrespect, nor is it my intention to oversimplify – even if I’m doing so – but I just don’t see cause for so much self-praise. If the U.S. electorate were so mature, it wouldn’t be such a misogynistic locker room, would it? The fact is, in order to get elected to the U.S. Presidency, you still have to be at least partially white, speak in a white manner, and have a penis. Sorry, it’s just my take on the issue.

  • sonofagun

    so, profeh, in effect what you are saying is that americans would have been deemed racists or bigots had they not elected barack obama to the presidency, but, now that they have, they are still racist because he isn’t ‘black enough’? it would seem to be that obama considers himself black and i would not argue. “Speaking in a white manner?” I am confused about this statement….please clarify..There are a variety of “white” manners of speaking. If you mean in an articulate manner then i would agree. The U.S. President should be articulate.I say kudos to america for doing what would not have been possible in this country less than 50 yrs ago, and i didn’t even support the man’s politics.

  • Profeh

    Ok, the “speak in a white manner” part was, on reflection, an unclear and probably inappropriate statement, for which I apologize. As for the U.S. being deemed racist, I didn’t use that word, nor did I link americans’ possible residual racism to the election. That’s my point: the election wasn’t a true test of racial attitudes, for the reasons I gave previously. And I have to say, it’s hard to argue that americans aren’t racist, considering their immigration policies which favor white europeans and other white-skinned immigrants, while building a shameful wall to keep out my countrymen to the south. Which is of course an entirely separate issue. As for the U.S. president having to be articulate, all I can say is this. Bush, two terms. And of course this election wouldn’t have been possible fifty years ago, I’m not claiming that it isn’t progress, just that it isn’t enough progress to warrant so much smug self-satisfaction. Thanks for the reply, have a good day.

  • Kelly

    Uh, you guys. Barack Hussein Obama is not a black president. He is a biracial president. He is half black, half white.

    I don’t understand why everyone is refering to him as “black.” I’m also half black, half white, and I don’t go around claiming I’m “black.” If someone refers to be as “black,” I politely correct them.

    Everyone may as well be calling him “colored.”

  • Profeh

    There you go. That was my point right there.

  • Dood

    Is the U.S. ready for the most liberal, inexperienced President ever?

    No. This will be a disaster even worse than Bush.

    Obama won’t be held accountable for anything, though. The media will cover for him every day just like they always have.

  • bucslim
  • dunderminion07

    Hey Dood. Not true. Abraham Lincoln is the most inexperienced president ever. Before president the only elected office he had was one term as an Illinois congressman. He went on to get us out of a war, free the slaves, and pass the homestead act which helped with the habitation of the west. If Obama is half the president he was than we (58% of america) would have made the right decision.

  • sonofagun

    People refer to Barack Obama as a black man because he refers to himself as a black man.

  • sonofagun

    Profeh: Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate your argument. I agree with your premise fully.

  • lilstvsmom

    I think he will make a great president…Unfortunately I work for a military base and the majority are worried there going to lose there jobs not because of color but because of where he stands on the stick “war” subject.

  • Legend and Lore

    I’m ready for a black president, but Obama’s going to be a black Hitler, and I don’t want that.

  • sugen

    legend and lore: nobody is going to be a black Hitler. He would succeed and make history.

  • Legend and Lore

    OK, maybe I went a little overboard with the Hitler comparison, but I know that Obama will be just as bad, if not worse than George W. Bush.

  • notherguitar

    During this election I didn’t think of it as a black president but instead looked at policy. Eventhough I am a white country boy from the south I still voted for Obama. This said neither of the canidates fit what i wan’t for a president. Only time will tell if Obama was a good choice. I mean look at Bush everybody loved him at first but now he’s a walking punch line. And since I’m up here let me ask the wonderfull listverse people. What am I, I beleave in gun rights, abortion (but only in incest or rape if you can’t keep your legs closed you should ahve to have to keep the child or atleast give it up for adoption) I also beleave in gay rights and the death penalty (as long as there is enough evidence to convict the person ex. DNA more than two crediable witnesses). So tell me please what am I.

  • Randall

    notherguitar:

    Well first of all you’re a poor speller, but we won’t hold that against you. (For instance, it’s “believe,” not “beleave”).

    But maybe you don’t need a label. I’m an Independent, both a former Democrat AND a former Republican. (I of course voted for Obama). I believe in “gun rights” myself, though I don’t believe that every American has the right to own whatever sort of weapon he or she chooses–I believe our government also has the right to regulate this. I believe in a woman’s right to choose and am not so close minded as to think that it should only be limited to cases of rape or incest—there’s too much dimwitted moral sanctity placed on the IDEA of life as an abstract, without taking into account the face of it in actual practice. I’d rather see a fetus terminated, then, if the likelihood is that it will be an unwanted, unloved life–one that could even be filled with suffering. BUT I do feel that such a decision ought to be made in a timely fashion—I don’t believe in late-term abortions. You’re calling for responsibility before a woman “opens up her legs” (and by the way, what about the man’s responsibility in this sense, notherguitar?) but I find that to be naive in the extreme. Suppressing the urge for sex is and should be done at appropriate times, but we all know this isn’t foolproof, nor is it always reasonable. Loosen up notherguitar, and realize that you’re speaking very harshly and being rather draconian about it. On the other hand, once a woman is facing actual pregnancy, then yes, it’s time to be responsible, because it’s no longer just an abstract. It her own life as well as the growing life within her. If she’s going to live with it and raise the kid, or give it up for adoption, then do so. If not, and she chooses to terminate the pregnancy—then do so. A choice, but one made in a timely and responsible fashion.

    Anyway, frankly I wouldn’t worry about “what you are.” Let the party come to you, don’t go to the party. Make them meet your standards, don’t meet theirs. The problem with the Republicans is that they’ve walked away from reasonable standards (or in some instances, standards in general) to embrace unreasonable ones belonging to a slim minority in this country. Instead of wondering who you belong with, then, just sit there and wait for them to come back to you. If they don’t, then the hell with them, and vote Democrat until the *Democrats* move away from your standards. At present, what I see about the Democratic party is that it’s learned its lesson from the 70s and 80s—and it’s returning to be the party of progressive ideals and balanced economic philosophies. So for the present the Dems are up, intellectually and philophically, and the Repubs are down. This swing happens from time to time. In a few years or a couple decades or more, it may swing back the other way. But for the time being, your gun rights are as safe with the Dems as they ever were with the Republicans, and the only question you really have to ask yourself is, do I want to bring some balance back into our politics and economy, or do I like the way the last eight years has played out?

  • Tall Girl

    I didn’t worry about the color of his skin, but more the color of his soul. I do not like Obama because I think he is a big dreamer, completely out of touch with the real world, and his promises are impossible to keep. Any change he does manage to make would be change that I do not welcome, such as tighter restriction on gun ownership.
    However, if Americans are so delighted to have a black president, I can name off a few I would have rather seen run for president. Not all are in politics either.
    1. Condoleeza Rice – She’s black, and a woman! Kill two birds with one stone. Bush chose her to be a cabinet member. She’s a very intelligent woman and she is already at the white house (kill three birds with one stone).
    2. Morgan Freeman – He’s not actually policitcal, but he’s a man I deeply respect, and he is old enough to remember tougher times.
    3. Denzel Washington – Also not a politician, but he is a very ambitious and highly respected actor in Hollywood. He is also a devout Christian who lives a very moral lifestyle.
    4. Chris Rock – He is a comedian who seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder, but he cares deeply about current issues of the day and uses politics in his humor. He might be liberal (I’m not exactly sure) but he seems to have his feet on the ground.
    I want to black president too, just not the one that we elected. :(

  • 872. Tall Girl: I worked in the film biz for many years. I got to know an awful lot of actors fairly well.
    What you’ve written above, gleaned from fan mags and websites, scares me half to death. Not that some of these men aren’t decent men, they are, but none of them would have the slightest business being President. None of them would even make a good congressman.
    They’re *ACTORS*! They get paid to play make-believe. Nothing they do can cause a global disaster. They play at being other people; good people, with deeply held convictions; brave people, with hearts big enough to always put the other guy first; intellectual people, whose ideas will save the planet.
    But it’s all just make-believe.
    These men are no more ready for power than you or I. They play people who are ready for power, or who are in power. Don’t mistake one for the other.

  • shadow

    Go segue.

  • bigski

    But segue what about govenor ahhnold he`s an actor and a politican ? (yes im ducking for cover).

  • shadow

    And Ronald Reagan was an Actor?

  • astraya

    In both cases not much of an actor and not much of a politician. (I’m also ducking for cover!)

  • shadow

    Let’s all duck for cover!

  • I can get you wherever you are. I have my ways.

  • Tall Girl

    In my view, Obama is only an actor as well. All politicians put on a fake show, the white house is full of actors! But I can see behind his stage act and I feel in my soul that he is corrupt. I’d rather trust an actor than a politican. :P

  • Masha

    I don’t really care what colour he is, as long as he does his job right I’ll be happy.
    Although when the election was over, I felt like I was in the 30’s because of many peoples’ responses.

  • EcoPhD

    I can’t believe we’re even discussing this.

  • Masha

    EcoPhD: Yeah, it’s a little depressing. But that’s the U.S. for you. :/

  • Scott

    I think the simple fact that his skin colour has been the major talking point through-out the election proves that, while they may be ready for a black president, it shouldnt be as big a deal as its become.

    Sad really!

  • LNR

    Obama should hopefully change the world but people seem to have focused too much on his skin colour rather than his politcal beliefs. I have read his books and I have to say he is an ambitious man.
    Im a 16 year old bi-racial resident of Ireland and hope that my children won’t have to grow up with a chip on their shoulder that i have. He is an outsider but seems to have been finally accepted by most people. Maybe this is what he really wants to prove to himself.
    Ah well he will be a great president before he gets assinated…… sad

  • Christy

    Wow – can’t even believe we’re talking about this…I truly feel that we elected the right man at the right time. Not because of his race, but because of his character. This is the first time in the short history of our country that our children DON’T see color as a barrier, or even a big deal! They are so very lucky that they don’t have to deal with a racist environment as the young people before them did.

  • Masha

    Christy: If you think they don’t have to deal with a racist environment, you must have never been to the south. Lucky.

  • J. Lindsey

    My answer is Yes. And I wish and pray he succeeds. :)

  • lightbulboverhead

    “Your View: Is the US Ready for a Black President?”

    Oh, you mean he’s black? Hadn’t noticed.

  • Big Tony

    yes.

  • smithstar4

    “I didn’t think I would need to say it – but I will delete any racist comments”.(jfrater)

    jfrater: That’s interesting. I can understand deleting vulgar and/or demeaning words(such as the “N” word)-But you’ve put this question out here. So let me ask,for example: If someone posted a message saying “no blacks should be president because they have a lower intelligence level”–Would you consider that a racist comment and delete it even though the poster honestly felt this way? (This is not meant to open up a debate on racial intelligence,I’m merely trying to understand what your meaning is).What if someone said,”if a black becomes president he/she will bankrupt all of us paying out “reparations” to black people”-Would that be a racist statement? (And no, I’m not debating whether or not there should be reparations)–I would just like to determine how open your forum really is to free thought.
    Thanks
    Dennis

  • smithstar4: I would not delete either of the two statements you describe – but not for the reason you give. If a person wishes to debate the issue of whether different races can inherently have different intelligence levels, fine. I don’t think it is true, but I won’t stop people arguing if they try to use facts and not emotion. I would consider a statement racist if it is a direct attack on a person for no reason other than his skin color. Also, as I have said elsewhere, I don’t delete the word “nigger” out of hand – I will only delete it if it is used in a derogatory way or with the intent to hurt. Words by themselves are not bad, it is how they are used which can be bad. I hope that explains it :)

  • smithstar4

    Yes it does. Thanks for the reply.

  • April

    I don’t care what color someone is, but I am sick of everyone forgetting that fact that he is not a black man! He is a biracial man. Why is everyone so afraid to admit he is just as much a white man as he is a black man? It doesn’t matter to me what color skin a person has, black…white or somewhere in between. It’s the person who matters.

  • akira

    April- You’re right. It is the person that matters and I am happy that we finally have a biracial president. No one is afraid to admit that he is indeed biracial. He identifies as a black man because the black community is more accepting of biracial children than the white community. I know someone or a lot of people are going to disagree but it’s the truth.

  • phlegm thrower

    is the black president ready for the USA

    that is the question

  • AllDayDre

    896. phlegm thrower – January 12th, 2009 at 10:54 am
    is the black president ready for the USA

    that is the question

    =======

    getting there was the hard part, just ask the moron thats on his way out!

  • disistatie

    That’s half white- half black! I don’t have anything against blacks I just want people to get their facts straight!

  • disistatie

    You got what you voted for america.

  • duh

    Obama is a white and black man so therefore he’s white and black. No s*** disistatie. Its not a matter of getting the facts straight because they already are- its just a matter of people like you realizing why he identifies as a black man.

  • diode geez knees

    it seems to me that the pop press of the u.s. has carefully held back
    untill now
    to have
    poured in the honour on the negro,
    like the executives allowed the gates to be opened only after elected and only days leading to droping “elect” from his title.
    too many heros and good feeling in the news are ways of covering up a lack of truth and true leadership, surrounding the clouds of the core directed, where carefully tread the unknown current running though the pulse. but who cares when the lure pulling is beside the ways in which history plays itself out.
    He will be our new king
    perfect connection to King and Obama
    we shall be sure to see Oprah make her appearence
    the Black guilt within
    released through televized tears
    and the Love felt at last
    free at last
    play it again
    free at last.

    you know, and then we’ll just get on with our lives
    until……

  • hjhfhjf

    i wish i knew why so many people are so interested in the skin color of the next president. in a way, isnt this turning into something it shouldnt? i mean.. from that point of view i guess its great. but why throw “black president” all over the news when all people are created equally.

  • Tall Girl

    Dislike Obama, not because of the color of his skin, but because of the color of his soul.
    Impeach Obama!

  • thankyou tall girl! inexperienced, underqualified, leftwing democrat. the less of them the better.

  • 903. Tall Girl: Yeah, the girl who thinks 3 actors would be better choices. I give her opinion a *lot* of weight.
    Not.

  • YOHEI

    He is the president and U can`t say anything

  • Dervis_Khan

    I think the country is not ready for a black president but they never will be till we have one, I am a conservative and dont like his ideas but that has nothing to do with skin, but I think he has to make it for us to be ready.

  • NicoNicoNico

    I am so glad he got elected! Maybe someday we won’t even care that someone is Black, just like what JKF did for Catholics.

  • CatZilla

    What can I say….
    I believe he is incompetent, inexperienced at best.
    I also believe that he will NOT fulfill 90% of his promises and that he will fail at recovering US economics. He will also get this country into an even deeper hole than we are in now.
    Watch.

  • antisocialist

    Does anyone see a pattern of crooked politicians being brought into the Administration? That is what concerns me more than the president. He is only as strong as the staff he surrounds himself with…not to mention the excessive spending outlined in the new bailout plans why do we need $300 billion to “prepare” for better health care coverage? Shouldn’t we just do it and not ponder it for $300 billion?

  • YogiBarrister

    CatZilla, incompetent? What has Obama ever done incompetently, other than bowling? Who are the crooks you are referring to? Were you as concerned about the crooks in the Bush administration who got us into this mess? I’ve got news for you, the US economy isn’t in a hole, it’s in a grave. It’s not Obama’s fault, it’s yours if you voted for Bush.

  • YogiBarrister

    Dervis _Khan #907 said…”I think the country is not ready for a black president but they never will be till we have one, I am a conservative and dont like his ideas but that has nothing to do with skin, but I think he has to make it for us to be ready.”
    Huh? This makes no sense.

  • YogiBarrister

    Tall Girl #903 said…”Dislike Obama, not because of the color of his skin, but because of the color of his soul.
    Impeach Obama!”
    Gee! I never knew it was an impeachable offense to have some nutty white broad disapprove of the color of the president’s soul.

  • CatZilla

    That’s correct. Incompetent.
    Also, may you know, the Bush administration isn’t fully responsible for the economic crisis.
    A law was passed that enabled people with less-than-perfect credit to “fulfill the american dream” – buy a house. That was back in 2002-2003. Well, that didn’t go quite as well as expected. The consequences are biting your ass right now.
    May you also know, the bill was suggested and pushed through by a few Democrats. If you need me to, I can give you names.

  • archangel

    It’s true, the Bush administration wasn’t fully responsible for the economic crisis. However, it was their ideology of small regulation and “fulfill the american dream even though we don’t really have the resources to do so, but we’ll just borrow terrifying sums of money to fulfill the crap out of it anyway” that allowed the situation to happen.

    With regards to Obama himself, I think the US is ready for a black president. Indeed, I see him as a british-irish-american-kenyan and not just black. Besides, in the end, it matters not what his skin is. Any American who voted for or against Obama based on the colour of his skin, be they black, brown, yellow, red or white is merely perpetuating the division of race. I do hope the majority of Amerians voted based on his competency.

    I do think Obama is competent and represents views much more in tune with the rest of the international community. America needed to gain respect again, and Obama has done that to a greater extent than John McCain would probably have. It is Obama’s sense of fairness, justice and wisdom that I think can lead him to become a great president, and his nation along with it.

    He is a new breed of politician for a new generation of world leaders. He represents what is new, and not what is backward. His morals are based on logic rather than tradition.

    And if you Americans think the outside world should not have a say in your choice of world leader… just consider that America’s decisions affect the rest of the world… say the current economic crisis as an example.

    In the end, its satisfying to see a man of reason on the Office of US President rather than a man who claims of integrity. Reason is yours to command, but your integrity is ours to own.

  • Paulb

    Yes I believe the U.S is ready for a black president. No I don’t think Obama was the right choice.

  • jaelo

    the real question is are we ready for this president. Not to be cliche, but race really doesnt have anything to do with it.Being african-american myself, i feel a sense of pride that things are finally beginning to move along, but my feelings regarding his skin go no further. So in essence, who cares really about where he came from, but where are we going?

  • CatZilla

    We are going down into a deeper hole than you can imagine.
    Already, the world currency is euro, not US dollar.

  • the truth of the matter

    we are all fucked here in america now.

  • Randall

    CatZilla:

    My suggestion to you? If after death we discover reincarnation is real, and you’re up for your next life–THIS time don’t get impatient and walk away from the “BRAINS” line in a huff. Clearly that little bit of haste last time did you no service whatsoever.

    “That’s correct. Incompetent.”

    Naturally, you failed utterly to answer WHY you believe Obama to be “incompetent.” Just “saying stuff” doesn’t make it so, CatZilla. You’re required to give support for your statements–particularly the idiotic ones.

    “Also, may you know, the Bush administration isn’t fully responsible for the economic crisis.”

    Fully? No. Rarely is any one person or any one thing FULLY responsible for a debacle. Even Katrina needed help to do the damage that was done to New Orleans, and hurricanes are the baddest motherf**kers on the planet.

    But yes, the Bush administration was PRIMARILY and MOSTLY to blame for our current economic crisis. By a long shot.

    “A law was passed that enabled people with less-than-perfect credit to “fulfill the american dream” – buy a house. That was back in 2002-2003.”

    This is true (though overly-simplified). And in fact if I’m not mistaken, the bill you’re referring to was in place BEFORE 2003. However, it doesn’t make you scratch your head a little that it took AT LEAST SIX YEARS for the crisis to unhatch itself? When we imply direct connections, CatZilla, it helps to actually ESTABLISH direct connections. Direct connections do not tend to stretch over such vast periods of time.

    In fact, the crisis, on the real estate end, had only so much to do with people taking out mortgages they couldn’t really afford. It was, in fact, due to unregulated bank and investment practices ASSOCIATED with the mortgage “industry” that led us to the crisis. MOREOVER, this is typical conservative propaganda BS anyway—as it simply implies that poor people and their unrealistic desires to own a home is what drove the country into the ground. Sure. IN FACT a HUGE number of the failed mortgages were held by people who bought outrageously large and overly-expensive houses and sometimes SECOND homes.

    But again, this is only tangential. It was the redirection of real estate lending by unregulated institutions–out of simple avarice–that brought us to where we are. Practices that were either outright condoned by the Bush administration and its then-crony-like Republican congress–or at least sanctioned by the administration and congress looking the other way and failing UTTERLY to oversee or regulate the industry. Period.

    “the bill was suggested and pushed through by a few Democrats. If you need me to, I can give you names.”

    So the current situation is due to a few democrats in congress. Amazing, what powers those guys have.

    Lies are foolish, CatZilla. They make one look bad. But FOOLISH lies are even worse, you know. They make one look bad AND stupid. I advise you to shut your mouth to prevent further damage.

  • bucslim

    I think you’ve got the the mortgage thing turned around Randall. At least it seems that way from what I’ve been reading.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Hardly. I don’t say that the push towards so-called “affordable” mortgages for more people didn’t have something to do with this. Of course it did. But that does NOT explain the practices that came in the WAKE of that move, none of which caused even the batting of an eyelash in the Bush administration. Blaming it on the push for more home ownership is like blaming a car accident caused by a neglectful or drunk driver on the credit union that gave the guy the loan for the car in the first place. He may have got it in a “loan sale,” but that doesn’t mean he had to go out and drive like an asshole.

    Pushing to increase home ownership may have been a boneheaded move, but that isn’t what CAUSED predatory lending or the redirection and rebuying of mortgage assets all over various institutions until they couldn’t be locked into a specific value, and then just fell apart. THAT was due to a total lack of oversight and deregulation.

    Laissez Faire capitalism *doesn’t work.* It’s a simple as that. And I used to be a Buckleyite. But it’s obviously true. It doesn’t do a service to the population at large, it can only reliably enrich a few at the expense of others, and unfairly so to boot. We need to give up on the chimera that it’s the way to go in life, and accept that the only way capitalism DOES work well is when we’re constantly fine-tuning and adjusting it to our needs AND to prevent abuse. I still think it beats socialism. But as with ALL things in life, what works best is doing all things in moderation and taking a little bit from here and a little bit from there. Capitalism is the best tool we have, I believe, for building wealth and happiness and having a fair society. But it is still just a tool. Like any other tool, if you just turn it on full blast and walk away, it’ll go nuts and rip a hole in your floor or run out of control and burn your house down. It requires oversight and responsible use to work properly. Then you can make ANYTHING with it. A freakin’ Victorian sleigh bed with carvings. But the opposite argument is that you can just turn on a jig saw full blast and leave it, and it’ll produce the same thing. That’s nonsense, and we all know it.

  • bucslim

    And I would submit to you that loans for underprivledged and poor people who had little means to pay them back is a uniquely democratic idea – all in the interest of ‘fairness.’

    This is a quote from the Guardian –

    “Clinton shares at least some of the blame for the current financial chaos. He beefed up the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act to force mortgage lenders to relax their rules to allow more socially disadvantaged borrowers to qualify for home loans.

    In 1999 Clinton repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, which ensured a complete separation between commercial banks, which accept deposits, and investment banks, which invest and take risks. The move prompted the era of the superbank and primed the sub-prime pump. The year before the repeal sub-prime loans were just 5% of all mortgage lending. By the time the credit crunch blew up it was approaching 30%.”

    Bush did little to stop the problem by rubberstamping the no-income no-job policy, that’s true because back then everything was just fine. And then there is a shitload of Real Estate moguls who jumped in on the gang bang. Not to mention those in our law making houses. It was a fat guy free for all at the Krispy Kreme. There’s plenty of shit to be slung at everyone. My question is if Bush is such and idiot, why didn’t you Dem smarty pantses in Congress stop it? The answer is you guys wanted cheap loans for the underprivileged.

    I would tend to agree with your asessment of capitolism, that it does need some oversight. The problem comes around when corporate fat cats grease the wheels of re-election campaigns. On both sides of the fence I might add. So just whom do you put in charge of the oversight? Our representatives go on the junkets to Sandy Beach Sunny Land or get their pet project up and running on the corporate dime, you think they’re going to bite the hand that brings them the daiquiri?

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    I love how you speak of “fairness” as though it were a dirty word… How dare those underpriviledged poor folk even think of owning their own home, after all.

    But seriously—why the obsession with you, about Clinton? You should know I’m no Clintonite–I never was and never will be. But you seem to feel, every time, like if there’s a criticism of a Republican president, that you MUST drag Clinton into it, as if that sets the teeter-totter in balance.

    Fine, Clinton did what he did–but remember too, he had a Republican congress in his way that evidently did nothing to stop him on this–or else didn’t try hard enough. But leave that aside–there’s still the fact that almost an entire DECADE goes by before the debacle hits–which is an awfully long time if Clinton’s action was primarily to blame here.

    I’d agree, then, that the Clinton administration shares some of the blame–but let’s not try to pass it off as a Clinton mistake. It’s just silly.

    And don’t say “YOU Dem smarty pantses in Congress” to ME. I am no democrat.

    But of course, you apparently need reminding that for the large part of Bush’s time in office, he had a Republican congress backing him up that went along with everything he did and said and provided absolutely ZERO oversight on anything.

    You also continue to keep trying to force the idea that the current debacle is due to poor people not being able to pay back their loans. No, buc. That’s only a PART of the problem… and not by any means the largest part.

    As for capitalism… what do you suggest then? Just throw in the towel and forget about it? Oversight is in large part tied to regulation. We have to get back to the idea of accepting that regulation is NOT a dirty word. Period. Will it ever be a perfect system, free of corruption or abuse? Nope. But I’d rather have small bits of that than the mess we have now.

  • bucslim

    Randall, I’m not obsessing on Clinton. I’m merely trying to get you to focus in on the fact that everything in this mess isn’t Bush’s fault. Sometimes this shit festers for years before it plays out the way we are seeing it. I was merely pointing to one instance where it may have started with Clinton.

    I think “ZERO oversight” is a bit overdramatic, Wall Street has it’s own rules along with the SEC and other governing bodies for real estate. We can have the tightest laws in the world regarding gun control, that’s not going to stop some crazy bastard from shooting someone.

    And I think even you would agree that this fairness thing has gone overboard here in America. As I think you would have a hard time loaning money to someone you knew would never pay you back.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Bear in mind that I wasn’t barking at you or taking an attitude. Think of me, rather, as bemused. Don’t think I’m on your case or anything.

    So having said that, look…

    A) I don’t require any “focusing” on anything. You seem to be laboring under a misconception about this. It’s interesting, really. The impression I get is that YOU feel some need to divert some of the blame AWAY from Bush. Perhaps it’s just a perception, I don’t know.

    B) It may, yes, have “started” with Clinton, in a similar way in which a car accident is “started” by a squirrel darting out in front of you. But if you’re ignoring the road, talking on your cellphone, checking your hair in the mirror… and then swerve violently at the last second when you see the squirrel, and hit a tree… is that the squirrel’s fault, or yours? Even if the squirrel was semi-intelligent and neglectfully CHOSE that moment, for some odd reason, to dart out in front of you? It’d still be down to you to pay more attention and avoid the calamity. The actions of a semi-intelligent squirrel shouldn’t have caused you to total your brand new Lexus.

    C) Come now, with your dismissal of the zero oversight thing. “Zero” is an overstatement, yes. But the essential truth remains—there was little oversight and no will on the part of the administration or congress, at the time, to step up to the plate and take it on.

    D) And AGAIN—this debacle is NOT primarily about bad loans to poor people who were unable to pay them back. There’s much more to it than that, and I think you know that. So why do you constantly return to that mantra?

  • CatZilla

    Randall, let me tell you a little story a friend of mine told me.

    He worked at the local assemblyman’s office here in New York City this summer.
    Once, a woman came up to the office with a claim that her rent is too high. She explained, that she is single, never been married, has 6 kids and is pregnant. Her rent was $200 per month (normally, in the area, rent is $1000-$1500).

    Now. Do you think the government should be helping her? Or is she, possibly, responsible for her own actions, such as sleeping around, making children because of apparent absence of protection?

  • 927. CatZilla: That story has nothing to do with whoever is President. It has, entirely, to do with the fact that the woman has an asshat for brains and her children are already damned for life.
    The only governmental “help” she should be getting is being trained to be admitted into the labor force, and have her children placed into foster care until such time she can prove she can properly care for them herself, without assistance.
    Does this sound harsh? You betcha!
    Is it necessary? You betcha boots!
    It’s way past time that people stood up and took responsibility for their actions. Laying the responsibility at the feet of the government is is the cowards way out.
    No more free rides for idiots. Idiots should pay double.

  • CatZilla

    I’m going kind of off-topic here to discuss current problems with economics and exactly WHY we are in this deep shit.

  • Randall

    CatZilla:

    YAWN. And your typical “look at how lazy poor folk abuse the system” story is supposed to have WHAT bearing, exactly, on the nonsense you were spouting earlier?

    I’m from New York myself, Cat, so trust me, I know what “abuse of the system” means. I don’t need cute little stories to illustrate it for me.

    But what HAS this to do with our current economic state? Is THAT what you’re blaming it on? If so, you’re not only hugely in denial, but you’re downright delusional.

    And you have YET to offer up one SHRED of support for your asinine statement earlier that Obama is “incompetent.”

  • bucslim

    Randall – I’m returning to that ‘mantra’ because it’s part of the discussion we’re having. Right? And I am trying to divert some of the blame away from Bush, that was my intention in this discussion to begin with. It seems to be a mantra of a great many other people to lay the blame for all of this at his feet. So I’m not sure what your point is. You’ve described my intentions, so?

    Sorry, I don’t have any other zingers to dazzle you with.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Zingerless? Zingerfree? Now with 10% less Zinger.

    I guess I was wondering why you keep pushing this Bush thing on ME though. I hate the man and think he was one of the worst presidents we’ve ever had, but I never blamed EVERYTHING on him.

    I never blamed my divorce on him, for instance. That was the fault of that cute little brunette with the accent… and, of course, my own inability to control my filthy desires.

    But seriously, I never much liked Clinton, either–though I admit I disliked Bush far more.

    But also let’s ask—you’re trying to divert some of the blame from Bush—but why? Just to make the record straight? Or are you diverting some blame away from Bush that perhaps he SHOULD have laid at his feet? Are you even sure?

    But another point—at this stage, what does blame matter? Suppose we could assign percentages of blame? What would it accomplish, in the end? Not that I care—I’m happy to blame people. But I simply don’t want the mistakes made again, and I don’t care, really, who made them or who made what percentage of them. I just want them ALL corrected and I want the WORST mistakes addressed.

  • bucslim

    Randall – I see your point about blaming someone for the mess. And it’s not that I want to be a hip ‘rebel’ who sees the angles that no one else notices. I’m just really tired of reading, watching and hearing about how all of this is Bush’s fault and I’ve tried many times, some clumsy attempts yes, but to show others how this just isn’t true. And I wasn’t smoothing out the edges of a Clinton label on your forehead. Just trying to show there are deeper reasons to why we are here. I’m concerned that in some respects he deserves being denounced as a bad president, but in many other cases he doesn’t. Of course I don’t know all of the facts, but based upon things I read – from many schools of thought and from plenty of writers in the political spectrum, this is the way I truly see it.

    To me it’s just intellectually lazy to think he’s a piece of shit, stupid, and a bumbling fool. No, you didn’t say all of those things, but it’s the general attitude of most others. Obama is now figuring out how hard these decisions can be with the closing of Gitmo. We can protest all we want about how unfair we think it is to hold these people there under the specter of torture, but what else are we supposed to do with them? Let em go?

    Bush fucked up plenty of things, Katrina for one. The Republican Party basically abandoned what wins them elections, gave us a candidate that wasn’t really a Republican, and just gave up the ghost in Congress. We now have been tossed aside like a worn out pair of shoes.

    Because of your political views and experience, I respect your opinion very much on these issues, but there is another way to see these things. I can’t accept some of the things you say, so I pipe up and remind you of a differing viewpoint.

    Most of all I just want you to hold me. You have been distant since our last encounter at the hotel. I know you have others, but no one else understands you the way I do.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    “Most of all I just want you to hold me. You have been distant since our last encounter at the hotel. I know you have others, but no one else understands you the way I do.”

    Hey, sorry baby… but I gotta me. I gotta be free. You knew that goin’ into this….

  • Safiya

    Hello All, I have been reading the thread and as someone in he mortgage industry I must say that it doesn’t take years for foreclosure crisis to fester. If you don’t make your mortgage payment on time or don’t make a payment at all for 90 days (3 months) then foreclosure proceedings begin. Yes, Clinton was being very agressive and hopeful when he put in place equal opportunity housing for all, however, it’s the people and greed which caused this mess to begin with. No President, no law…just like guns (and I am not big on them) but it’s people that kill not the guns in and of themselves.

    I am glad that Obama is President, but I am a black person and I am not one to vote for someone just because he is black. For all those that want to say that he is not black because he is mixed. Here is the test to use. If during slavery time, he would have been a slave because his skin was dark enough and he does have African American features, then he would be considered black. For all of those who have said that there is no race problems or can’t understand why people are happy because he is black….It’s a sense of proudness and knowing and understanding black history that makes us proud. The fact that race wasn’t a huge problem means that we have come a long way and that shouldn’t and can’t be denied.

    I may not agree with everything and all that he says, (i don’t know who I would agree 100% with), I do respect the fact that of all the political liers he is the most direct. He doesn’t insult the American people’s intelligence (i.e. like telling us everything is fine when they are not), he is determined to bring to bring into fruitation his campaign promises (but also understand he has the Senate an House to go through as well). He is very intelligent and at a time like this, we need that.

  • archangel

    I completely agree with you Safiya.

    May I also add that the current economic crisis is no fault of a single individual, party or institution alone. Had previous administrations tried to regulate the financial sector, I would make the claim that there would have been widespread popular opposition from the American public, financial heavyweights and political representatives. From hindsight, and from looking at some of the opposition against Obama, previous administrations would probably have been branded as Socialist in a derogatory manner. Couple this with the deceptive general prosperity that Americans were experiencing under the current system, and the American patriotism to strict Capitalism, then regulation would have been almost politically impossible.

    – Note that I am talking in generality, I understand that not all individuals share the same view. –

    Therefore, the economic crisis really stemmed from America and Americans in general. It was America who supported and elected the administrations, and it was America who preferred strict Capitalism. Its easy to blame the leadership, but if you really look at it, the will of the population played a significant part in it as well. America prides in its democratic system after all.

  • Anon

    archangel,

    I think that’s a very fair-minded and open point of view respecting many decisions. I suppose one might modify it by specifying an (American) majority, since whatever situation arises in a democracy, there is almost always a dissenting minority.

    Of course, public response is also conditioned by what it is told (WMD!) or how it is able to interpret what may be extremely complex and not fully understood ‘specialist’ situations (e.g. economics or climate).

    The American public couldn’t be brought into either world war until opinion was suitably conditioned. And it would be naive to suppose it wouldn’t support any kind of action if, say, oil supply was threatened (and therefore fuel availability and prices).

    Of course, it’s the business of politicians to explain policies to the publc and convince them. But I suspect there are pretty severe limits on that process, even for the most charismatic. Taxation must be a particularly difficult fishbone to get the public to swallow! Probably a lot of minor legislation gets through easily because the public at large is either unconcerned or unknowledgeable.

  • gabi319

    872. Tall Girl
    Technically, Morgan Freeman has already been president. Ever saw Deep Impact? :-)

    I’m surprised by the number of people griping about why the topic of race is in debate. That’s easy. It’s because it is still a topical issue and will remain so for decades and decades and possibly centuries onward. Not racism as race riots and discrimination to the scale of the civil rights movements, but smaller forms of racial discrimination at home and work, isolated hate crimes, ethnicity polls and surveys, affirmitive action…even something as passive as mentally noting a couple with different color skin…To some extent, everyone’s a little bit racist. The main difference is how they react to someone who is different from themselves and I’m glad to see a lot of people commented that they were looking beyond the marketing of the candidates to look at promises and legacies. I died a little inside every time I saw or heard someone say they supported Obama because he was black or Palin because she’s a woman.
    Safiya, in times of slavery, black wasn’t just determined by skin color. There was the 2/5th rule in the Constitution (can be no more than 2/5th black to be considered a citizen) and in the more social aspect, ANY drop of “tainted” blood made you automatically black. Aside from that little nitpick of mine, I think that was a very intelligent post.

    As for Obama’s biracial background. Is he truly black when his father was culturally African and not culturally Black? Especially since his father had left him to be raised by his white mother and maternal grandparents? Taking account only his ethnic history, I’d say no…but that doesn’t take into account the nurture aspect of his upbringing and whether he was active in cultural acceptance during his formative years and his involvement in Chicago which is a very diverse community. He doesn’t need to have the technicalities in order to be black. If he’s willing to represent them and (more importantly) express the grievances they may have, then good for him.

    As for the actual question…I think that yes, America is ready for a black president. Racism has been stagnant of late. I’m happy to see that it is a positive stagnant (meaning more quietly accepting than demeaning) but hopefully having a black figure in such a public setting will further break prejudices I am sure still exist. Whether or not that black president should be Obama, I’m not sure. To be honest, I was back and forth all the way up to when I filled my ballot.

    Ahh! I wish I could jump in this tennis match y’all have over economy! But at my novice level, I’d be in way over my head… My friends are all still in their “invincible” mid 20’s mentality and wonder why I’d have any remote interest in something as serious as mortgages and economic bailouts. bah, please… Just cuz you’re 25 doesn’t mean you can’t think like you’re 60 and just cuz you’re 60 doesn’t mean you can’t act like you’re 25.

  • xposya

    America isnt even ready for independence let alone being able to vote!

  • archangel

    gabi319,

    Ah, have more faith in yourself. I myself am only 19 and already jumping into these arguments (nope, not 2 decades old yet). Knowledge is the substance of such an argument, but really, morals and wisdom are the backbone of one’s thought. Anyway, the previous sentence probably didn’t make much sense.

    Anon (937),

    Thanks for making that statement as that is the other side to what I mentioned. To complete the circle, your statement substantiates that no single individual, party or institution is to blame, but rather, America in general (more so the majority).

    Leaders either failed to foresee such devastating consequences from their current economic system, did not see any failures and as such, failed to educate the public on such matters, or rather, fueled public opinion towards believing in a system that has now crumbled.

    On the other end, the public either failed to coerce their leaders towards changing the system, believed in the system, or was indifferent towards it.

    There are so many combinations but it all points to the notion that people should not blame a single individual or institution for the economic crisis. Most people (i.e. through a collective will, morality or ideology) had a part to play in its perpetuation which inevitably led to its downfall.

    xposya,

    Why exactly is America (i am assuming you mean the United States of America) not ready for independence? That was achieved a long long time ago.

  • Anon

    xposya, (939), (if you’re a US citizen),

    Blimey, ya don’t want us to wet-nurse you all over again, so you can knock shit out of us once more when you think you’re big enough to leave home, do ya? You’d nuke us this time too, wouldn’t you, you rotters.

  • 941. Anon:…so you can knock shit out of us once more…
    ****
    Oh, drat the cat, Anon! My ancestors in America go back to before the Revolution (the American war of Independence), and I can promise you that no one is going to kick the shite out of you if I have anything to do with it! Besides, xposya doesn’t strike me as the sharpest tool in the shed, so his/hers/it’s comments aren’t exactly anything I’d worry about.

  • gunn

    why not

  • I would like to congratulate our own Randall on his recent TV appearance at Obama’s Fort Myers, FL town hall meeting. Our Dear Leader, Obama, selected Randall out of the crowd and allowed him to ask the final question of the day. I always wondered what you looked like, Randall. ;)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/10/julio-osegueda-florida-co_n_165673.html

  • Randall

    rushfan:

    I have a much better radio voice, lady.

  • :lol:

  • 945. Randall: I have a much better radio voice, lady.
    ****
    And I do so love your cyber voice!

  • paintball

    yes we are

  • Zippy

    We sure as hell better be!

  • Glowbug

    Well, since the gentleman won, I’d say my neighbours to the south are very ready. I hope he lives up to the hopes of his employers. God knows he couldn’t do any worse than the last guy…. :P

  • Jim

    I some people need to just re-evaluate themselves first. Is there really any pleasing you? Or is it just in your nature to find fault and complain about everything?

    Good luck to OUR President. God bless.

  • Team

    Like I said before, we are ready for a black President, just not this one…

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aGJ_.gr_awkY

    Dow’s Decline Is Fastest for a New President in Nearly a Century

    March 6 (Bloomberg) — President Barack Obama now has the distinction of presiding over his own bear market.

    The Dow Jones Industrial Average has fallen 20 percent since Inauguration Day, the fastest drop under a newly elected president in at least 90 years, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The gauge has lost 53 percent from its October 2007 record of 14,164.53, slipping 4.1 percent to 6,594.44 yesterday.

    More than $1.6 trillion has been erased from U.S. equities since Jan. 20 as mounting bank losses and rising unemployment convinced investors the recession is getting worse. The president is in danger of breaking a pattern in which the Dow rallied 9.8 percent on average in the 12 months after a Democrat captured the White House, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

    “People thought there would be a brief Obama rally, and that hasn’t happened,” said Uri Landesman, who oversees about $2.5 billion at ING Groep NV’s asset management unit in New York. “It speaks to the carnage that’s in the economy and the lack of confidence in the measures that have been announced.”

    A bear market is defined as a decline of 20 percent or more.

    Buying shares “is a potentially good deal” for long-term investors, Obama said March 3. He compared daily fluctuations to a tracking poll in politics and said he wouldn’t adjust his policies just to meet market expectations.

    Congress last month enacted Obama’s $787 billion package of tax cuts and spending on roads, bridges and public buildings. His 2010 budget indicated the government’s financial rescue may need another $750 billion after an initial $700 billion.

    Getting Cheaper

    The Dow average has dropped 31 percent since Obama’s election. The 30-stock gauge trades at 8.04 times annual earnings, the cheapest since 1995 and down from 10.06 times on Inauguration Day.

    Citigroup Inc. led the plunge, losing 71 percent. The government proposed taking a 36 percent stake in the New York- based bank, cutting the percentage owned by shareholders. Detroit-based General Motors Corp. tumbled 53 percent after the largest U.S. automaker said it needs more government aid.

    “It’s the Obama bear market,” said Dan Veru, who helps oversee $2.8 billion at Palisade Capital Management in Fort Lee, New Jersey. “We don’t know what the rules are in so many different areas the government is touching.”

    The Dow average lost 0.3 percent to 6,577 as of 11:14 a.m. in New York today.

    Bank Losses

    The U.S. economy contracted at a 6.2 percent annual rate in the fourth quarter, the most since 1982, the Commerce Department said last week. Unemployment jumped to 7.6 percent in January, the highest since 1992, as Americans fell behind on their mortgages and banks seized homes at a record pace.

    Losses at financial companies worldwide that grew to about $1.2 trillion sent the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index to a 38 percent retreat last year, the steepest since 1937.

    “Prospects for recovery in the financial sector, despite all the government help, still seem rather remote,” said John Carey, who manages about $8 billion at Pioneer Investment Management in Boston. “We’ve had a weak economy for a couple of years, and we aren’t seeing the stimulus working at this point. That is what weighs on investors’ minds.’’

    The Dow average took eight months to decline 20 percent following the inauguration of George W. Bush, reaching the level on Sept. 20, 2001, nine days after terrorists attacked the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.

    Herbert Hoover

    The crash of 1929 occurred seven months into the administration of Herbert Hoover, who presided over an 89 percent plunge in the Dow between September 1929 and July 1932, the steepest retreat ever.

    Only twice has the benchmark gauge slipped in the 12 months after the election of a Democratic president since 1900, after Woodrow Wilson’s victory in 1912 and Jimmy Carter’s in 1976.

    The Dow entered its most recent bear market on July 2, 2008, when a 167-point decrease gave it a 20 percent loss from its record 14,164.53 on Oct. 9, 2007. Unlike the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index, the Dow’s rally from its November low of 7,552.29 fell short of a 20 percent bull market gain, ending at 19.6 percent.

    “Obama should be listening to the stock market more than talking to it,” said Kenneth Fisher, the billionaire chairman of Woodside, California-based Fisher Investments Inc., which oversees $22 billion. “He hasn’t gotten out of the gate well.”

  • 6twistedbiscuits

    barack obama seems to be doing a good job. what does his skin have to do with him being president?

  • April

    I think he identifies with whatever helps him at the moment. I would love to see a black man or woman be president if the person was elected for the right reason. I honestly can’t see electing him just because he had a black father and I believe that is why many people, both black and white, voted for him and many others simply voted for him out of their hatred for Bush. In all honesty, if the DNC had nominated the person with the most votes we would be asking is America ready for a female president.

  • Aaron Hurricane Bouchard

    They have been ready

  • Boo

    He is doing a terrible job running this country. It has nothing to do with skin color, everything to do with policies. I guess this is the hope and change you asked for, a socialist agenda driving our country into the ground.

  • jussayin

    For the first time, I have actually seen a man look concerned and weary doing the actual job of President and trying to keep people from losing their jobs and their homes. Have you seen his recent pictures? He looks like he’s doing manual labor; he looks worn out. Everything he is doing it appears to be for the betterment of the nation. he looks like he doesn’t even sleep well at night. He looks like he cares….too much. No jokes, no vacations…I see a hard working man.

    And America is full of some ungrateful and hateful people who are not ready and will never be ready to work a day as hard as this man is to better themselves…

    Frankely I am tired of people and their whining and bitching, but yet not doing anything. He can’t do it all by himself. Get some sense and help him and help all of America get back on its feet.

    For people who could not understand why Michelle Obama was “not proud” of America, let me break it down. I have not always been proud to be an American because many Americans are ignorant, lazy, foolish, mean, and racist. Don’t act like you don’t know. And I’m sick of the bullshit. A lot of people in government and a lot of regular folk have made the recession/depression occur with their greed and stupidity. Not one man, and not a Black man. And then want to get all saddity when some people want to make things right. America can eat a big one some days, seriously. How can people be so blind and so dumb?

    Either shit or get off the pot; help our President and help your country or stand aside if you don’t know any better, but stop complaining because that ain’t worth shit!

  • bobbyakatc

    The painted man is the best thing that ever happen to us, the U.S.

  • Dionysus

    what does a black man have? does it matter? all over the world everyone is talking as the first black president of bla bla… who cares that he’s black.

  • bleargh

    nice point dionysus

  • Larry

    There are no more racist people on the planet than black people in America.

  • Mark

    @Larry (961): Wow… so you call other people racist, by discriminating against there race as a whole…. Yet again, wow….

  • The Music Hearer

    I think it’s interesting that people are saying the same things about Obama right now as they were saying about George Bush 8 Years ago. I guess we’re that desperate.

  • The Music Hearer

    I think it’s interesting that people are saying the same things about Obama right now as they were saying about George Bush 8 Years ago.

  • Team

    God help us with this tool in office.

  • Mark

    @Team (965): God help us with tools like you on the streets :|

  • Peppermint Patty

    I am very supportive of Baarack (i think i spelled that wrong forgive me) Obama.

    However apparently the people of the United states want to be childish and un American by making mean and unapreciative comments upon Obama. Obama has done a few things that I cannot agree with but that does not make him a bad president, and I surely did not choose him because of his color. But with the threats and wrong comments thrust upon him we as americans must step up to plate and be happy that we have the right to chose and have a president at all. Who ever wins we must be happy with it cause we will have him until he cannot be in the white house any longer.

  • Richard E.

    You know as an independent I actually have to keep up with what the party’s actually saying, When Obama was running A black lady told me well he cant be no worse than Bush, I hate this when any person says this type of stupis rederick, Because As many Leaders around the world in diffrent times have proven it can allways get worse, Unfortunately Obama has proven it.
    He has been the sorriest leader the states have ever seen holding the title commander and chief, He is truly against America, the only people that could believe diffrent are the politicaly stupid whom have turned the parties into a strictly racist fantasy, the belief that the democattic party is for blacks please! get real, Oh I know the comback allready , well the Republicans dont give a Sh– about us. Do your home work you’ll find through out history they care more about all ethnic colors more than any group. Dont believe me dont curse me untill you yourself research. If you cant do this you should not be allowed to vote.

    What I really dont understand in America with African Americans is this, When Rush Limba whatever his name is makes what some refer to as racist comments the black audience is enraged, If a person steps in a black mans face and says you know your just stupid you cant learn because your a negro man etc, you become enraged, And by allright you should be, This is what I dont get, the majority of blacks in America, some how are blinded by the fact since the ending of slavery that the democratic leaders as well as the democratic leaders in the NAACP are calling them stupid to their face every time they speak and just dont care. I really dont get it. It just doesnt bother this Majority of blacks, And it pisses me off that the democratic party does this but pisses me off more because Blacks support the people doing it. Martin Luther King truly should have been an Independent or a replican, Everyone knows his speach, of Equality of all men-created equal etc, THe democratic pary actually fault and voted against abolishing slavery, Im just going to go through a few do your research your self, Democrats all through the political history have tried to suppress Blacks, When the schools were been desegregated, It was the Democratic party who stepped up and said the Negro People are not able to learn, so where the negro population is greater than that of whites we must lower the learning standards to allow them to catch up, And they did, But its ok to call you stupid because their a democratic party am I right? Jessie Jacksopn does not give a —– about what he refers to as hisa people, He and Malcom X should be banned from any Billboards or shirts or anything with Doctor King, Mr. King fault and was killed for his people in the belief that all he wanted was to prove and for his people be allowed to show that black Americans were equal, not dumber you never heard him request for special treatment, “Equal” Jessie Jackson himself calls Blacks Stupid but no one cares hmm funny isnt it. Jeb Bush stated while Gov, In Florida it was time that the standard in education was made equal among all races, Jessie was outraged, what did he say”If it based on my education I wouldnt be where I am at today”
    He himself have always fault to deprive his on people of that which Martin Luther was killed for. But its ok. I was always raised when a man comes to your door promising gifts, be weary, If the Germans new when Hitler ran on the Ticket promising a better Germany that Change was coming well we all know how that went. Wake up people take the political racism from your mind, America proved it wasnt about color when Obama was elected, Everyone wanted to believe, well the promise was the same of Hitler this man hates America, As well as most Democrats, lets look at a few, Up to dates Clinton, NAFTA, he had stock in foreign markets he became super rich when this bill passed, Ross Pero warned America, “If this Bill passes kiss your job good by” No one listened turned a deaf ear a racist ear, well hows your jobs in your town HUh, before you say Bush name the Bill that he passes that screwed us or dont say anything. Hillarys wants and have always fault to allow Murder, ? Late month and after Birth abortion, WOW the Replicans have always fault against abortion all together. Under Clinton after Monica situation, Bill passed a Bill to allow adults to have sex witrh 14 year ols as long as they consented, Because of the outraged people he was forced to raise it to 16, but you fundle them at 15 just dont penetrate, yes the Democratic party and their great moral standards. Its awsome isnt it. Do your Research on the political Party who really hates you, And America. Stop the Political Racism, Open your Eyes or America Will Fall, Believe in that of which Martin Luther King fault and was killed for write the NAACP and voice your self as well as the Democratic pary tell them , if you want to call yourself stupid fine But I darew you keep calling us Stupid. Raise the Standards in the Black Majority Schools and Colleges fight for that which King fault for, Or shut the — Up and stop saying you love Doctor King during Black History Month, Because these groups spit on him evertime they speak his name if they dont stop the Democratic party from calling his people Stupid, And Jessie Spits on this Great Leader not just a Black Leader A great American Leader of his time, Doctor Martin Luther King. God Bless You all, Please I beg you do your research, Ill finish this in this manner, Though I was raised up by a great mom and dad, They taught me and my brothers, this important belief, Son I know we make you attend church with us we raise you as A Holieness But read the Bible for yourself to see what understanding you get, We raise you and teach you the best we can but it our beliefs, That we bring you into, Study to show yourself approved.
    And thats what I have always done, Listen to every man even in politics, but research for the truth. Again God Bless.

  • Richard E.

    My apology for the misspelled words, Some are my fault in specific, the other is my key boards on the brink, my daughter spilled tea in it, keys work sometimes and other times they dont or they stick. So I’m truly sorry for the mistakes.

    To love America means to love the American People
    To love one race is to hate America for we are a colorful
    country,

    Written by me Richard E.

  • Thanks for sharing, I really appreciate it.

  • dalinean

    Obama is so far the best president since jfk, bar none.
    Reganomics Put the US into the dire financial position it is in today.

    • Banana

      Ronald Reagan came after JFK, and he basically ended the Soviet Union and brought down the Berlin Wall. What Obama has done so far cannot compare to that. I am not saying he is a bad president, I am just saying that there are several other presidents between him and JFK who were better.

  • Aurell

    lol wtf why is this question even asked.

    so what if hes black loool wow

  • Topa

    There should be no argument over this. Yes, there can be a black president. But there are so many black presidential candidates I would have chosen over Obama.