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Armistice Day (11 November – dedicated by King George V) is the day in which the nations of the World War I allies remember the brave who died. It is known as Veterans Day in the United States and Remembrance Day in some countries. It seems fitting that we should have a list on the topic as our own way to say thank you to the many men and women who gave their lives for the protection of our way of life.
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
Sources: Google Images, Heritage of the Great War, and World War I Color Photos
November 11th, 2008 at 2:25 am
very nice list
November 11th, 2008 at 2:39 am
cool
November 11th, 2008 at 2:41 am
great list i missed that series ‘war in colour’ or something this is cool
November 11th, 2008 at 2:42 am
Wow. These pictures are amazing. For some, it’s hard to imagine they were not hand tinted, because the colors are so lively. I am very grateful for these glimpses into the past. I think, sometimes, it is difficult to imagine the horrors of war, but pictures in color, 90 years old or more, are an excellent reminder of the atrocities, and even loneliness, of war.
November 11th, 2008 at 2:44 am
are these really color photos, or merely colored photos?
November 11th, 2008 at 2:45 am
Illusioned guns on the list, g. Mad disrepect in South Korea as there they make a mockery of this day by calling it “Peperro Day”.
Respect.
November 11th, 2008 at 2:46 am
sick
November 11th, 2008 at 2:47 am
oh thank god finally a good list the last few days the lists were kinda boring but watever gr8 list guys
November 11th, 2008 at 3:39 am
good stuff.
Colour photographs weren’t around then… Were they??
Also, love the french uniforms.
November 11th, 2008 at 3:49 am
Paul and PirateXxEsque: real color photography did exist at the time. In fact, believe it or not, the very first color photograph was taken in 1861 – that is 50 years before the first world war. Here is the first color photo from 1861 – it is a photo of tartan ribbon. Furthermore, check this out – stunning. Believe it or not this was taken before 1915! The Great War ended in 1918 so this well predates it. And here is a beautiful photo of a town taken in full color in 1877.
Just when you though it couldn’t get any better, check out this full color motion picture filmed only 4 years after the first world war ended (film: 1922).
November 11th, 2008 at 4:01 am
Pictures are not that good. And the “Tartan Ribbon” picture is too grainy. Even my 5 MP camera can take better pictures. Bah.
Lol. just kidding people. I was trying to see how Jessica “Chicken or Tuna” Simpson would comment on this list.
Great list. Wonderful to see the past come alive.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:20 am
They shall not grow old,
as we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn;
at the going down of the sun, and in the morning -
We will remember them.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:51 am
An English-language memorial service was held in Seoul cathedral on Sunday morning. At the time, Korea was a colony of Japan, which I have just found out, to my surprise, fought on the allied side in WWI. Korea has more than its fair share of memorial days of its own, having been almost obliterated during the Korean war.
That said, ppepero day is pretty bizarre. For those who don’t know, ppepero is a popular confection that can best be described as a straight, thin pretzel, sometimes hollow and filled with a flavouring, sometimes solid and dipped in chocolate. The connection is that the date 11/11 looks like sticks of ppepero.
This led to a classic moment in one of my English classes. We’d started talking about public holidays, then got on to “other celebrations”. Students explained ppepero day to me. I said “Why ppepero. Why not – pencils?” One middle-school student, who either has absolutely no sense of humour or is an absolute master of deadpan, said, totally seriously, “Food is more useful than pencils”.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:55 am
NIce list
November 11th, 2008 at 4:57 am
Bbebbero day is just an excuse to sell those things. It is a holiday created by Lotte. My little buggers were asking for it all day.
/You probably heard that from someone by now.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:58 am
alth: thank you for adding that. I used “we will remember them” on the front page but not on the list. It is definitely appropriate here.
November 11th, 2008 at 5:09 am
I live in Korea… I ate a lot of Pepero.
By the way, why is this topic on a World War list???
November 11th, 2008 at 5:12 am
Koreans do this. The confectionary manufacturers figured out that they could sell twice as much chocolate if they marketed Valentines Day to one gender and created “White Day” on 14 March. I can’t remember which way round it is.
I was going to buy ppepero to give my students, but ended up not.
I’ve just checked. Lotte officially uses the transliteration “pepero”, so I’ll stick to that spelling if I have to mention this again.
ryan: where are you?
In case this all sounds too flippant, I had a great-uncle and great-great uncle killed in WWI. The g-g-uncle was one of the saddest stories in the family tree. They married at 18 and 19, and within a year they were both dead: him in Europe and her of pneumonia or something similar.
November 11th, 2008 at 5:13 am
nyys: see comment 6.
Where in Korea?
November 11th, 2008 at 5:21 am
“The War to End All Wars” has so faded from the minds of the world it seems. The atrocities so fierce, the conditions so horrid. The concept of British youth wearing gas masks amid sorrid mustard, the rotting flesh, human and equine, then returning home for High Tea, and then returning to Hell. I recommend to all never to forget this war and learn all you can about it. A great start is “The First World War” by Martin Gilbert. God bless the men and women who fought for freedom, thank you.
November 11th, 2008 at 6:27 am
Fantastic list. Amazing photos.
And well said, rob.
What a horrific, terrible, godawful war. But then they all are.
November 11th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Many, many thanks to all who served.
November 11th, 2008 at 6:45 am
It’s veterans day today in the US. (Salutes)
November 11th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Wow, how many people here teach English in Korea? I do as well and just got a boat load of Pepero from my kids.
Our generation cant even imagine what its like to live through a world war and get bombed in our home country.
November 11th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Remembrance Day is a big deal in Canada. In Flanders Fields was written by a Canadian doctor – Lt.Col John McRae after he watched the death of a friend. It has become part of our fabric, every Canadian learns this poem in grade school and is taught its significance.
Don’t forget to pay your respects today. At 11:00.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:00 am
WOW… i was amazed…!! i really wanted to be a soldier
November 11th, 2008 at 7:00 am
i wonder if the makeup of the average young person today still has the sense of responsibility to answer a call like these men did in WWI and WWII.
i thank God that soldiers around the world were willing to put their normal lives aside to fight and die for something bigger than themselves.
God have mercy if our problems escalate to something so terrible like this again.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Good list, I appreciate the pictures on Veterans Day. I was also wondering if these pictures have been hand colored in or on a computer. If they could take color pictures back then, would the quality be this great?
November 11th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Great list! I didn’t even realize that they had color photography during WWI!
November 11th, 2008 at 7:35 am
95% of us Americans dont care what a Peperro is #13
November 11th, 2008 at 7:39 am
bigski: don’t be that guy. that idiot american who thinks they are superior to the rest of the world. and especially don’t present yourself as some sort of representative of what the rest of us think.
when the first person said that in korea that call it “peperro day”, i was very interested. i was wondering if it was some sort of insult to our soldiers.
the soldiers who, by the way, make it possible for you to make pig-headed comments and not fear any sort of retribution.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Wow.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:56 am
PS – Well said DiscHuker.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:13 am
This reminds me of the movie “Fly Boys”. Great movie
November 11th, 2008 at 8:15 am
In America they call it Veterans’ Day. In Britain we call it Remembrance Day. Does that signify any difference between our countries? I don’t know.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:25 am
I was making a flippant comment to commenter #13 for a remark on how 95 % of the world dont like Americans because of Walmart ect.Im a U.S Navy veteran and I dont have anything but love for all veterans!! I dont need anyone to tell me about mine or as far as that goes to the rest of the world freedoms that U.S veterans had a little to do with.I`ll be an ugly American any time I read where someone makes negative comments about my country and I expect other people who are proud of there country to do the same.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Comment 27 DiscHuker: I think that the average young person today does have the same sense of responsibility to answer the call the the men in WWI and WWII. I have a lot of close friends currently serving in both the Marines and the Army and they are all for the most part serving in Iraq. I also had a close friend whose truck was blown up by a land mine and he lost a leg. We still have a lot of brave individuals out there fighting for us, our country, our freedom…And currently the men and women that are serving in Iraq are there by choice they were not drafted they are choosing to risk there lives for us. Thank you to all those people.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:32 am
Great list! Just sat down to read a little before I headed out to our ceremonies, it is a fitting topic for today.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:34 am
bigski: how about this for a change…don’t be an “ugly american”. respond to their comment with dignity and rationality.
pengi05: absolutely, we have fantastic standing armed forces. my question is more curious about the “average joe” that would be necessary to launch a world wide campaign they way it was for the two previous “great wars”.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:35 am
These pictures really bring home the scope and tragedy of that almost forgotten war. I think we tend only to remember the sacrifices of our own countrymen (and women) and to demonize “the enemy”. Seeing color photographs makes real the faces and losses and beautifully, if not grusomely, illustrates the truly global impact of WWI. With the causes long forgotten, it’s easy to view German, Australian, French, British and American all simply as young men and women far from home and desperate to get back. Thank you for this.
November 11th, 2008 at 9:01 am
DiscHuker I`ll do my best
November 11th, 2008 at 9:05 am
awesome! im a senior in high school and i have always found WWI to be a very intersesting topic in history, no mans land and the trenches have always seemed like they would be pretty scary. have a good veterans day everyone! (im not sure what they call it in other countries, sorry)
November 11th, 2008 at 9:10 am
Thank you for this list today. Great to see so many commenters who are moved by the subject and, like me, wowed by the amazing photographs.
Let us never forget those who’ve passed.
November 11th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Lets all chill with throwing around comments about people and stereotypes that come with their countries. The way I see it countries are like sports teams people are loyal to their teams no matter what. Even if their leader sucks or their team is not playing so well people will wave their teams colors and cheer proud. So naturally people get angry when anyone has anything negative to say about their team. Also when a player goes down the whole crowd gets quiet out of respect. Thats what today is about being quiet and paying respects to all who lost their lives in war then and now.
November 11th, 2008 at 9:37 am
I think it’s interesting that remembrance day is today in the US and UK, while in Australia we have Anzac day on the 25th of April, to commemorate the aussies who fought in gallipoli.
November 11th, 2008 at 9:38 am
The pictures and sentiment are beautiful.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Here in Canada, our Remembrance Day is not just about WWI but every conflict that Canadian soldiers have been part of. It is a national holiday and a very big deal to many. We all wear poppies and take time to think of all the people affected by war in the past.
Lest We Forget…
November 11th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Some people seem to confuse WW1 and WW2. WW1 was not at all a “war for freedom” as some people here seem to suggest. It was just a fratricide war between countries which simply and stupidly hated each other. Like previous wars, the defeated nations, weather it were the allies or not, would not have lost their “freedom”. They would have simply been defeated and humiliated (which was the case for Germany in WW1) and then left alone after a few years. For example, this was the case for France with its defeat against Prussia in 1871. After a relatively short occupation, France was left alone to rearm, decide its own fate and politics, and freely hate the Germans which in part led to WW1. It has nothing to do with freedom and its sometimes quite funny how some Americans think every war is about freedom, its like their vocabulary is limited to that word only, and justifies or explains any war.
Anyway great list. My grand-father, a french soldier, fought in the great battle of Verdun and met my grand-mother in Belgium when he was stationed there after this terrible and sadly useless war.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Pictures like that leave me in awe. Seeing something in color that you so often see in black and white really makes the time seem much more recent. Makes it seem much more realistic. If I ever imagine getting in a time machine and going back past 1950 I would have expect everything to be in black and white. I really appreciate the photos on the list and the ones you provide links to in the comments. Very amazing.
I also have to say I love Koreans. I had a roommate in college for while who became my best friend and he is Korean. He was in the Korean army and told me a lot that you don’t read about in the news are in encyclopedias. During the Korea war his grandfather and father (who was 7 at the time) swam from North Korea to South Korea to escape. I also love the food! Once he order this soup and it was one of the best things I’d ever tasted and it turned out to be pig intestines. Didn’t turn me off though. It’s amazing what you can learn from people of other countries and cultures. One of the most admirable people I’ve ever known came from New Zealand so even they aren’t half bad. Right Jamie?
November 11th, 2008 at 10:23 am
I love photography so this list was extra enjoyable for me. What a great way to honor the Veterans.
And the poem In Flanders Fields always gives me chills when I read it.
Mom424 I was going to add the significance to the poem and you beat me to it.
Just to add to your thought: The poppies referred to in the poem grew in in Flanders where war casualties had been buried.
Thanks again jfrater, for posting this great list.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:35 am
this was amazing.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:38 am
What I consider my main degree is in Photography, and it is the art I pursue with the most vigor.
These photographs are a reminder of why I do so. Photography tells a story no words can convey. I look into these faces and see the faces of youth far from home, faces full of loneliness, boredom, fear bordering on terror, determination, and pride.
Seeing the juxtaposed images of the women working in the factory, at that time, obviously a man’s job, and children (thank God for children, who will always find a way to be children!), playing amidst the rubble, just hammers home the horror that is war.
It matters not what side one is on in a war, the innocents are all the same, innocents. They all feel the same terror, they all fear for their loved ones, they all just want life to return to normal.
These photographs are a powerful reminder of what today celebrates; of who today celebrates.
Thank you, jfrater, for the best of all possible lists.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Riley, we celebrate Veterans Day similarly here in America. It started on November 11, 1918 as Armistice Day in rememberence of the end of WWI, but quickly evolved into the broader definition you described in Canada. I’ve seen several forms of remeberence; some towns hangs signs listing the Name, rank and age of those currently serving from that town, most towns hold a parade and the grave sites of many veterans are marked with floweres or wreaths.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Good List – sad list
While humans walk this earth their will always be conflict.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Number 6 looks like a painting!
November 11th, 2008 at 11:08 am
For those wishing to learn more about this ultimately horrifying example of industrial slaughter (between so-called God-fearing nations) and bravery coupled with endurance beyond normal comprehension, I would recommend the DVD of the historic 1930 film, “All Quiet on the Western Front”. Or Erich Maria Remarque’s novel on which it was based. Or the poet Robert Graves’s (ironic name) autobiographical “Good-bye to All That”. Also the moving Penguin Book of First World War Poetry. Prepare yourself in all cases with intestinal fortitude and a plentiful supply of tissues.
There are, of course, long filmic WW1 documentaries based on images of the time as well. Those cover the events comprehensively, but will not take you into the human heart of the horror, as do the above.
We should never forget the near futility of the conflict for the *ordinary* (in reality extraordinary) soldiers involved (unlike WW2), which left the survivors as a disillusioned generation. For a fact-based story of one who saw early through the cynicism, brutality and exploitation, refer to the splendid “Monacled Mutineer”, a fine British TV serial. The last of the Black Adder series with Rowan Atkinson treated the same theme as the blackest of comedies.
My eldest uncle, then a rather grown-up looking (just) 15-year-old schoolboy, lied about his age on the outbreak of the war in 1914, volunteered, and was accepted into army of the British Expeditionary force in 1914. Like Graves, he fought right through to the last day, survived and was seriously wounded at one point, though not effectively crippled. He shortly became one of the youngest NCOs in the British forces.
During one offensive he was part of a mass bayonet charge on the German lines with the objective of disabling several dominant machine-gun nests embedded in thick concrete pillboxes. Of the several hundreds headed for his particular objective, only about a dozen made it to shelter and crouch beneath the gun slits outside the fortification. The rest were simply mown down. I dearly hope the closest any of us will get to knowing what that situation must be like is the remarkable D-Day landing reconstruction in “Saving Private Ryan”. The ninteen-year-old public schoolboy lieutenant, the only officer to get through, collapsed and froze with nervous shock, like a climber who can move neither up or down. So my seventeen-year-old, veteran sergeant, working-class schoolboy uncle coolly took command and despatched the remaining soldiers to the various gun ports, ordering them to lob grenades inside the moment he blew the officer’s whistle. They wiped out the stronghold. For that he was awarded by King George V the highest medal other than the Victoria Cross that an NCO can attain. Ironically, the officer was given an even higher medal. Well, it was that or court martial and execute the poor bastard by firing squad for cowardice in those days.
A postwar incident highlights the vile home-front cynicism. Due to his serious wound, my uncle lost full control of his bladder. One night, returning home late at night from a work-shift on foot through woodland, he was taken short. This, unfortunately, was a notorious spot for prostitutes, and a police patrol arrested him. He was charged with indecency before the local magistrates court and found guilty, despite a full revelation of his war record and the consequences of his wound. But it didn’t end there. The word indecency also covered sexual behaviour in those days. About two miles or more away in the same woodland, a young lady had also been caught short and arrested on the same night. She followed my uncle in court. The local paper reported their names together as being involved in an indecent act. That, of course was read by my aunt, his children, their neighbours, his workmates, et al. Luckily they all knew him for what he was, and their helpless anger was turned on the authorities.
I recorded this tale elsewhere in LV once, so my apologies to any who’ve come upon it for a second time.
On this 90th anniversary, a salute to the honour of your memory and valiance, uncle.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:13 am
I’ve been taking a history of war class at my university and its really been eye opening to me. Especially since I’ve visited such places as Verdun, and Normandy in northern France and seen destruction that still persists to this day.
I’m so proud of the Canadian troops that lived, fought, and died in those conditions. They were really brave, and were always on the front lines, leading frontal assaults against impossible odds. When the Germans knew they were fighting the Canadians, they knew they had a tough day ahead of them… so much so that they nicknamed them stormtroopers…
Lest we forget…
November 11th, 2008 at 11:44 am
11, 12, 19…. amazing.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Very, very cool. But let’s take the apostrophe out of number 14, shall we?
November 11th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
great list
perfect for veterans day
November 11th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Anon(56) Ah, you bet me to “All Quiet…” That book was a serious read when I was in college. I can recall only a very few books that ever moved me as much as that one.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
duh… *beat me to* I R Gud SpelR
November 11th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Lest we forget.
November 11th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
I think number 5 and 12 are the best ones there. That is my opinion though
November 11th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
My grandfather fought in WW1, he was gassed by the Germans and according to my Dad it really messed him up and he died from it when he came home. I never met him but I am proud of him just the same. Unlike the politicians who choose to denigrate our soldiers for dying in an “illegal” or “unjustified” war, I disagree. Anybody who fights for others, who is wounded, or who dies deserves hero status. They do so because they are asked (forced) and many civilians are saved from torture by these satanic extremists. Thank you vets!
November 11th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
thanks much..
wonderful..
I’m speechless..
November 11th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
To learn more about WW1, I would suggest reading the Regeneration Trilogy by Pat Barker. These books bring to life the time period in England and France as well as the frame of mind of the people involved. They are all excellent.
Regeneration
The Eye in the Door
The Ghost Road
The third book won Pat Barker the Booker Prize in 1995.
I came to know and love many of the characters in the books and can only imagine the devestation wrought on the real families of the soldiers of that war.
I hate war, but I realize that sometimes it is a necessary evil, and I honor anyone brave and strong enough to live through one, and even more so those who gave their lives for their beliefs and for their countries.
November 11th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Only the french would put a furry bear nutsack on a military uniform (see picture 20)
November 11th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
The sun’s shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, and the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard that’s still No Man’s Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man’s blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
These color photos are so high quality, I didn’t believe they were actually of WWI. Good list.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
I have set up a forum called “(Teaching English) in Korea” at http://listverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1371.
DiscHuker: Thanks.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
awesome list
November 11th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
The pictures are good but I am having trouble taking seriously a site that allows the use of an apostrophe to form a plural “Prisoner’s of War”
Thank you for playing.
November 11th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
War’s prisoners, maybe then?
November 11th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Amazing list, very sombre and respectful. I agree that the colour photographs really drive home the reality of WW1. I think that poor quality B&W war images sometimes detract from the reality of everyday life on the front, as more imagination is required to mentally picture the conditions. I never knew colour images of WW1 existed, so thanks for broadening my mind
I don’t believe that remembrance of WW1 is fading along with those who lived through it. Here in Australia the places of soldiers that have passed away are taken by those soldiers’ relatives, particularly on ANZAC Day and Remembrance Day.
Lest we forget.
November 11th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Thanks to all who served and are serving currently. I am currently enlisted in the U.S. Army, so this day means a lot to me. Theres a really good video/song out there called “A Pittance of Time” by Terry Kelly. If Veterans/Remembrance Day mean anything to you go check it out on youtube.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Riley #47: Unfortunately, Remembrance Day is not a national holiday in Canada. Each province has its own designation. Here in Ontario it is just another working day, which is an absolute disgrace. At least at my workplace they have the good grace to observe a minute of silence at 11 am, but I don’t know how common that is.
Comment #56: Thank you for posting that. I can recommend to you a book called “Boy Soldiers of the Great War”, which is about boys like your uncle, who lied about their age to join up–often with the active collusion of the recruiting officers. There were a few as young as 12 who managed to sign up, although they were mostly discovered and sent back before they saw action.
These pictures are beautiful. Some of them are obviously hand-coloured, but they are all fascinating. Thank you for this list. It made me cry.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Great list!
LOL! #17 Australians Relaxing ie. Looking for a root!
Love it!
The Australian Light Horse brought all of their horses with them and were loath to leave them behind when they returned home. Reports of actual tears from the men.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
BTW, a “root” is an Australian (and possibly New Zealander) term for sex!
November 11th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Lest We Forget
CANADA
November 11th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
BooRadley – the Regeneration trilogy! I wrote my dissertation on Regeneration. It remains to this day one of my favourite novels of all time.
“During one offensive he was part of a mass bayonet charge on the German lines with the objective of disabling several dominant machine-gun nests embedded in thick concrete pillboxes. Of the several hundreds headed for his particular objective, only about a dozen made it to shelter and crouch beneath the gun slits outside the fortification.”
Stab in the dark here, Anon, but by any chance were you describing the battle of Tyne Cot? My great-great-great uncle died in that one at the age of 18.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Another quick point – I know everyone is proud of the soldiers that died serving their own country, but I think to make a point of saying “I’m proud of American soldiers” or “I’m proud of Canadian soldiers” is to totally miss the point of why the First World War was so tragic. These young men did not die for their countries. They did not die fighting some evil and brutal enemy. They died for absolutely no reason, and when millions of people die for no reason it doesn’t matter one bit what country they came from.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Baxter, you are absolutely right. Both my grandfathers served in the Great War, one for England, and one for Germany. I remember them both on this day. Neither of them had much choice. A whole generation was wiped out, then the Spanish Flu killed millions more. It was not a glorious war, it was an epic tragedy.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
I had no idea color existed during this era.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Wow, Baxter. That was very sappy and dopey.
November 11th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Shane Macgowan’s version of this song is so tragic and beautiful…
Now when I was a young man I carried me pack
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Murray’s green basin to the dusty outback,
Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in 1915, my country said, “Son,
It’s time you stop ramblin’, there’s work to be done.”
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
And they marched me away to the war.
And the band played “Waltzing Matilda,”
As the ship pulled away from the quay,
And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
We sailed off for Gallipoli.
And how well I remember that terrible day,
How our blood stained the sand and the water;
And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk, he was waitin’, he primed himself well;
He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell –
And in five minutes flat, he’d blown us all to hell,
Nearly blew us right back to Australia.
But the band played “Waltzing Matilda,”
When we stopped to bury our slain,
Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
Then we started all over again.
And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
Though around me the corpses piled higher.
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I woke up in me hospital bed
And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead –
Never knew there was worse things than dying.
For I’ll go no more “Waltzing Matilda,”
All around the green bush far and free –
To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
No more “Waltzing Matilda” for me.
So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
To grieve, to mourn and to pity.
But the band played “Waltzing Matilda,”
As they carried us down the gangway,
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away.
And so now every April, I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glory,
And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
They’re tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask “What are they marching for?”
And I ask meself the same question.
But the band plays “Waltzing Matilda,”
And the old men still answer the call,
But as year follows year, more old men disappear
Someday, no one will march there at all.
Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda.
Who’ll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?
And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong,
Who’ll come a-Waltzing Matilda with me?
November 11th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
beautiful pictures, these are unedited?
war is so senseless
November 11th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Adrian – why do you think what Baxter wrote was “sappy”? For the most part I agree with what was written. In terms of “righteous wars” (and that is a highly debatable topic), WW1 would surely rank amongst the least justifiable (and I believe that is the point Baxter was trying to make).
However, I disagree with the statement “These young men did not die for their countries”. I’m sure there would have been at least some soldiers that died in WW1 who believed in “the cause” and that their sacrifice was worthy – provided they had enough time before their demise to contemplate such things. Just as I’m sure there would have been those men who were pushed into serving and didn’t want to be there at all.
In any case, it is certainly appropriate to acknowledge the tragedy of WW1. The fact is that the war claimed and changed many lives, and paying respect to those involved can not be a bad thing.
November 11th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Bad News (86): There are few songs that can reduce me to tears. That is one of them. It was written by an Australian songwriter Eric Bogle. I don’t know who sings the recording I know. The wikipedia article on the song says:
“The Pogues cover is perhaps the best-known version; critic Robert Christgau wrote that vocalist Shane MacGowan ‘never lets go of it for a second: he tests the flavor of each word before spitting it out.’”
I haven’t heard that version. I’ll search for it tonight.
There is a similar song, which I have just found out was also written by Eric Bogle.
No Man’s Land (The Green Fields of France)
Well how do you do young Willie McBride,
Do you mind if I sit here down by your graveside,
And rest for a while ‘neath the warm summer sun ?
I’ve been walking all day, and I’m nearly done.
I see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
When you joined the great fallen in 1916.
I hope you died well, and I hope you died clean,
Or, young Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene ?
Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fife lowly ?
Did they sound the Dead March as they lowered you down ?
And did the the band play The Last Post and chorus ?
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest ?
And did you leave a wife or sweetheart behind,
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined ?
Although you died back in 1916,
In that faithful heart are you forever nineteen ?
Or are you a stranger without even a name,
Enclosed and forever behind the glass frame
In an old photograph, torn and battered and stained,
And faded to yellow in an old leather frame ?
Did they beat the drum slowly …
The sun now it shines on the green fields of France,
There’s a warm summer breeze, it makes the red poppies dance.
And look now the sun shines from under the clouds,
There’s no gas, no barbed-wire, there’s no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard it’s still no-man’s-land,
The countless white crosses stand mute in the sand,
To man’s blind indifference to his fellow man,
To a whole generation that were butchered and damned.
Did they beat the drum slowly …
Now young Willie McBride, I can’t help but wonder why.
Do all those who lie here, know why they died ?
And did they believe when they answered the cause,
Did they really believe that this war would end wars ?
Well the sorrows, the suffering, the glory, the pain,
The killing and dying, was all done in vain.
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.
Did they beat the drum slowly …
I am beginning to cry reading through this!
November 11th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
@Bad News #86.
Heart rending stuff. I also love Flower On The Water(?) by John Williamson:
All we can do is throw a flower on the water
Try and see the sun through the clouds
All we can do is throw a flower on the water,
Remember how we loved you.
Remember how we loved you.
For those who don’t know, there’s a tradition in Canberra at the Australian War Memorial where you throw a poppy into the memorial pool at the entrance, during remembrance day.
Also, you place a poppy next to the name of your loved one on the wall of names that runs the length of the memorial pool courtyard. There are a LOT of names there.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
#7 is particularly heartbreaking because it is a fine summer’s day and you feel as if you are there. How many men were there finding out that their mate had died? What a senseless waste of life the Great War was.
November 12th, 2008 at 12:02 am
WW 1 was pure madnes, WW 2 was total insanity, wars generally is man gone mad,the easiest way out, let those who declare the war and their families be the first to pick up the guns and be at the fore front of the battle!
November 12th, 2008 at 12:14 am
THIS IS A FOOD FOR THOUGHT
Christmas in the Trenches
My name is Francis Tolliver, I come from Liverpool.
Two years ago the war was waiting for me after school.
To Belgium and to Flanders, to Germany to here
I fought for King and country I love dear.
‘Twas Christmas in the trenches, where the frost so bitter hung,
The frozen fields of France were still, no Christmas song was sung
Our families back in England were toasting us that day
Their brave and glorious lads so far away.
I was lying with my messmate on the cold and rocky ground
When across the lines of battle came a most peculiar sound
Says I, “Now listen up, me boys!” each soldier strained to hear
As one young German voice sang out so clear.
“He’s singing bloody well, you know!” my partner says to me
Soon, one by one, each German voice joined in harmony
The cannons rested silent, the gas clouds rolled no more
As Christmas brought us respite from the war
As soon as they were finished and a reverent pause was spent
“God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen” struck up some lads from Kent
The next they sang was “Stille Nacht.” “Tis ‘Silent Night’,” says I
And in two tongues one song filled up that sky
“There’s someone coming toward us!” the front line sentry cried
All sights were fixed on one long figure trudging from their side
His truce flag, like a Christmas star, shown on that plain so bright
As he, bravely, strode unarmed into the night
Soon one by one on either side walked into No Man’s Land
With neither gun nor bayonet we met there hand to hand
We shared some secret brandy and we wished each other well
And in a flare-lit soccer game we gave ‘em hell
We traded chocolates, cigarettes, and photographs from home
These sons and fathers far away from families of their own
Young Sanders played his squeezebox and they had a violin
This curious and unlikely band of men
Soon daylight stole upon us and France was France once more
With sad farewells we each prepared to settle back to war
But the question haunted every heart that lived that wonderous night
“Whose family have I fixed within my sights?”
‘Twas Christmas in the trenches where the frost, so bitter hung
The frozen fields of France were warmed as songs of peace were sung
For the walls they’d kept between us to exact the work of war
Had been crumbled and were gone forevermore
My name is Francis Tolliver, in Liverpool I dwell
Each Christmas come since World War I, I’ve learned its lessons well
That the ones who call the shots won’t be among the dead and lame
And on each end of the rifle we’re the same
BY
John McCutcheon
November 12th, 2008 at 1:08 am
A Thousand Soldiers (Willem Vermandere, my translation)
Should you ever come to the Westhoek
through rain and Northern winds
Turn back the time while you go by
and it’s the war you’ll find here
Yes, it’s the war that you’ll find here
and the graves of a thousand soldiers
always somebody’s father, always somebody’s child
silent as death now, and from God forsaken
Let the trees be silent, and the grass shouldn’t tell
and the wind shouldn’t sing it neither:
that your deaths were for nothing
that would be too terrible
Say: all is well, there’s prosperity in our country,
and the peace is guaranteed by law;
we do make weapons, but more wisely now,
and only to prevent wars.
And big rockets, with atomic heads -
aren’t we allowed some experiments?
We do throw them at each other’s head sometimes -
but just for fun
Should you ever come to the Westhoek
through rain and Northern winds
Turn back the time while you go by
and it’s the war you’ll find here
Yes, it’s the war that you’ll find here
and the graves of a thousand soldiers
always somebody’s father, always somebody’s child
and thousands and thousands of soldiers…
and thousands and thousands of soldiers…
and thousands and thousands of soldiers…
November 12th, 2008 at 3:39 am
In the US, Nov. 11 is Veteran’s Day, which is intended to honor those who have fought for their country and are still alive.
The reason why it is not as somber an occasion as in Europe is because the US already has a holiday to honor its war dead: Memorial Day. It was established after the Civil War, which was a very tragic war for the US, similar to Europe’s Great War.
November 12th, 2008 at 4:28 am
I live in Nieuwpoort (Newport) in Flanders and I grew up in Diksmuide.
The place where they opened the locks during WW1 to flood no-mans-land and stop the enemy.
Nice to see those pictures as i haven’t seen them before (i think)
You find many monuments, statues, and cemeteries in the area where i live. Also, farmers still find bombs in their fields from WW1, even 90 years after the war!
11 november is a national holiday here in Belgium.
We show great respect for the brave soldiers who fought in this awful war.
November 12th, 2008 at 5:34 am
WWI produced poetry at the time (Owen, Sassoon, Brooke) and commemorative songs later (as above). Are there comparable works from WWII?
November 12th, 2008 at 6:20 am
thats some amazing pictures. One forgets how little technology they had in those days.
November 12th, 2008 at 6:49 am
astraya, (97),
Offhand, certainly yes. I’m sure there are also anthologies of same. Perhaps wiki would enlighten (I’ll try to remember to check later). There isn’t the same quantity, nor are WW2 poets so well known, nor did they write with such extreme intensity of emotion. Part of the circumstance of WW1 was living, suffering and dying together in such close quarters for such long periods. This induced intense comradeship. Broadly speaking, WW2 was a much more mobile war, and in essence a dirty job to be got on with and got over. Few if any (on the allied side) doubted or disbelieved its basic allied motivation: to stamp out the totalitarian evil of Axis fascism. I would be most interested to learn whether any fighting on the side of WW2 fascism were inspired to write poetry of any quality, as did Germans in WW1 (Rosenberg, Heym, Trakl, etc.)
There must be as many or more non-fictional and autobiographical works of the 1939-45 conflict, not to mention films. For one thing, there were, comparatively, far more survivors able to write up their experiences.
Some of these works on aerial warfare (which particularly intests me) from both conflicts are quasi-poetic in places. Actual conflict and mechanical or human failure in the skies could be terrifying indeed, but some of the pure flying experience was lyrical and magical (e.g. ‘Saggitarius Rising’, Cecil Lewis, on WW1).
Blitzen, (83),
The father of one of our working colleagues fought right through and died in the Spanish ‘flu epidemic very shortly after his demobilization. That same colleague himself died aged 40 of high altitude pulmonary edema (mountain sickness) while botanising in Nepal a couple of years after being part of our group in the Near East. Life is a lottery in and out of war.
November 12th, 2008 at 6:56 am
Dischuker:
Not sure if anyone got back to you about the pepero day thing. It is not an insult anymore than not celebrating the 4th of July. Here, it is a day to give candy. It is your typical corporate created holiday. Korea’s Memorial Day is June 5 or 6. It is similar to the American one; it is for all those who died or fought for Korea’s independence.
Astraya:
White day is when boys/men give to girls/women. February is the reverse.
I’m a bit outside of Seoul.
Sorry to threadjack again. Cheers, hope everyone enjoyed their Tuesday. If you took a moment for the soldiers great.
November 12th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Here’s one for those who consider that cynical politicians and generals are uniquely to blame. Remember those white feathers for cowardice handed out to any young man not actually in uniform?
Glory of Women
You love us when we’re heroes, home on leave,
Or wounded in a mentionable place.
You worship decorations; you believe
That chivalry redeems the war’s disgrace.
You make us shells. You listen with delight,
By tales of dirt and danger fondly thrilled.
You crown our distant ardours while we fight,
And mourn our laurelled memories when we’re killed.
You can’t believe that British troops ‘retire’
When hell’s last horror breaks them and they run,
Trampling the terrible corpses – blind with blood.
‘O German mother, dreaming by the fire,
While you are knitting socks to send your son
His face is trodden deeper in the mud.’
Siegfried Sassoon
November 12th, 2008 at 7:55 am
My grandfather was a lt. colonel in the army and spent two years in Germany as a POW. He gets so mad every Veteran’s Day and always says he didn’t go through all that so people could get sale prices on mattresses.
He’s right. WWII is too far removed from me, or even my parents, to understand the horror of it all, but when I think that my grandkids might wait around to buy a new car at the September 11th Day Sale, it makes me ill.
November 12th, 2008 at 8:05 am
Many bring tears to my eyes, but this one also shocks me to the pit of the stomach every time I read it:
Dulce Et Decorum Est
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through the sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! – An ecstacy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime …
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I see him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the waggon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, -
My friend you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Wilfred Owen (1893-1918)
November 12th, 2008 at 8:19 am
BooRadley, (67),
Thanks for the recommendation, I shall be sure to try to take it up next time we are somewhere appropriate in the northern hemisphere. Books sent by post here risk ridiculous import taxes.
Baxter, (81),
I never learned the actual historical details, or even the date of the battle. All relatives of my parents’ generation are dead now. However, it should be possible to discover those details by checking War Office records as relating to my uncle’s name. Difficult from here in Chile, but I can set one of my daughters onto that. She is extremely enthusiastic about family history. Interestingly, a Welsh forbear on her mother’s (my first wife’s) side was one of the numerous Victoria Cross awards from the Battle of Rourke’s Drift in the Zulu Wars.
November 12th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Should read ‘Prisoners of War’, not the possessive ‘Prisoner’s of War’.
Please correct this at your earliest possible convenience.
November 12th, 2008 at 8:25 am
Rafterman(68) The hat is called a ‘Bachis’, and that’s a red pompon on top, not “…a furry bear nutsack…”
November 12th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Here’s a poem written by a World War I soldier named Alan Seeger. He was killed in action at age 28 in 1916. His poems were published posthumously. This is one of his more famous ones called “Rendezvous”
I HAVE a rendezvous with Death
At some disputed barricade,
When Spring comes back with rustling shade
And apple-blossoms fill the air
I have a rendezvous with Death
When Spring brings back blue days and fair.
It may be he shall take my hand
And lead me into his dark land
And close my eyes and quench my breath
It may be I shall pass him still.
I have a rendezvous with Death
On some scarred slope of battered hill
When Spring comes round again this year
And the first meadow-flowers appear.
God knows ’twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where Love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear
But I’ve a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.
November 12th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Sedulous,
Thank you for providing that moving piece. I came close to posting it myself, but considered the two above were enough from one commenter.
“Rendezvous” is the only work of Seeger’s I have read.
Some have likened the astonishing crop of fine, sensitive WW1 poets to the Flanders’ poppies themselves.
November 12th, 2008 at 9:44 am
astraya & anon:
Paul Fussell wrote an essay on the comparative poetic silence of the WWII generation, about their war. I’ll try to remember the title, or find it at home.
But basically it was due to the difference in circumstance between the two wars. WWI was the “patriot’s war,” at least in the beginning–the war where countless young, very erudite, scholarly (and sometimes very sensitive and romantic) English public school boys went off to fight–and die–and so we had poetry, both romantic (and largely unreadable today) and non-romantic about the war.
“Was it so hard, Achilles? So very hard to die?
Thou knowest and I know not…
So much the happier I.”
That kind of thing.
WWII, however, was almost from the start a very different war. There was little time and less inclination for reflection and pondering–and even less for romanticism. Total War leads even more to the demonization of the enemy and a silent swallowing down of the whole concept of the “romantic” war… not hard to imagine when one’s enemy is, in fact, doing demonic things. Thus, with the intense hatred and hostility between Allies and Germans or Japanese, it isn’t surprising to find that the soldiers fighting in such a war tended to be mute.
Fussell uses the example of Randall Jarrell’s ultra-brief, ultra-laconic poem, “The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner” to illustrate the point that the WWII generation was, if not always mute, deadly resolute in what it was doing, with no time for the nonsense of literature:
“From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from the dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.”
That pretty much says it all right there. As everyone here who’s a regular knows, my father and many of my uncles were in combat in that war. They were not by any means mute or uneducated men–in fact quite the opposite. But they would not talk about it, from any report I’ve ever heard from my relatives, and from personal experience. It wasn’t a war to be talked about, and it wasn’t a war to have poetry written about it. It was just deadly earnestness. Which is not to say that WWI *wasn’t* deadly earnest, or wasn’t brutal and terrible and horrific. It was. But in between the two wars, the massification of our societies had begun–and the generation that fought WWII had A) already lived through that terrible first war and/or B) had already lived through the godawfulness of the Great Depression. Their “muteness” then is a sort of byproduct of the misery they’d already seen and the worldview this had stamped on them. And it’s further evident by the fact that the propaganda films and books and articles of the day–written or made during the war–are today nearly unwatchable. But immediately after the war, irony returned, and we begin to see, right away, a sea change in the way war is depicted–from the coming-home manner-of-frankness of “The Best Years of Our Lives” to the simple “nothing good is in war” of “The Naked and the Dead.” And films that deviate from that, or books that deviate from that, pale by comparison.
November 12th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
The Man He Killed
“Had he and I but met
By some old ancient inn,
We should have sat us down to wet
Right many a nipperkin!
“But ranged as infantry,
And staring face to face,
I shot at him and he at me,
And killed him in his place.
“I shot him dead because -
Because he was my foe,
Just so – my foe of course he was;
That’s clear enough; although
“He thought he’d ‘list perhaps,
Off-hand like – just as I -
Was out of work – had sold his traps -
No other reason why.
“Yes; quaint and curious war is!
You shoot a fellow down
You’d treat if met where any bar is,
Or help to half-a-crown.”
Thomas Hardy
November 12th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
War
There’s a soul in the Eternal,
Standing stiff before the King.
There’s a little English maiden
Sorrowing.
There’s a proud and tearless woman,
Seeing pictures in the fire.
There’s a broken battered body
On the wire.
Woodbine Willy
Trench Poets
I knew a man, he was my chum,
but he grew blacker every day,
and would not brush the flies away,
nor blanch however fierce the hum
of passing shells; I used to read,
to rouse him, random things from Donne -
like “Get with child a mandrake-root.”
But you can tell he was far gone,
for he lay gaping, mackerell-eyed,
and stiff, and senseless as a post
even when that old poet cried
“I long to talk with some old lover’s ghost.”
I tried the Elegies on day,
But he, because he heard me say:
“What needst thou have no more covering than a man?”
grinned nastily, and so I knew
the worms had got his brains at last.
There was one thing that I might do
to starve the worms; I racked my head
for healthy things and quoted Maud.
His grin got worse and I could see
he sneered at passion’s purity.
He stank so badly, though we were great chums
I had to leave him; then rats ate his thumbs.
Edgell Rickwood
November 12th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Randall,
I recall Robert Graves and others, and I gather that included my own uncle, being both unable and unwilling to speak (as opposed to write) with non-combatants about experiences at the front. I believe this tended to apply to WW2 as well. The milieu they came home to on leave (or were finally demobbed into), was so utterly and alienably different from that they shared with companions in arms, that an almost insurmountable communication barrier existed. Civilians were either incapable or unwilling to absorb or understand the actual experiences, or had their own vision, which was often false-heroic and -romantic, and therefore utterly sickening to participants, who therefore preferred to remain mum. They also had to avoid adding to the fears of relatives.
Of course, the riské sing-songs (also of land forces), riotous mess parties and “wizard prang” jollity of combat pilots in both wars is well documented, but it was in part a cover for stress and fear. Whistling in the dark. Not that some in both wars and all services were not born to fight and thrived on it: Von Richthoven for example.
I remember my aunt, who was a teenage WAF mess attendant, having to be sure one particular Australian pilot was awake for combat alarms or regular offensive sweeps. She said he was a lovely guy, who shared his precious Christmas cake with her, but spoke little, mixed hardly at all, and had a haunted look in his eyes. One morning she had to shake him awake for a mission, he was so exhausted. He never returned.
A colleague’s father flew Wellington bombers and found combat experience so terrifyingly traumatic he wanted to wipe it from his mind.
I believe Spielberg consulted actual D-Day veterans about the invasion beaches for “Saving Private Ryan”, but many could not take reviewing his result. It was simply too realistic, the awakening of memory too intensely painful for them to bear.
Interesting that Derek Robinson (who served in the RAF) in his novels “Piece of Cake” (WW2) and “Goshawk Squadron” (WW1), inter alia, creates characters who bring to war intact their very human, innate, cynical, bullying nastinesses and character weaknesses as well as their naked terror, and enact them lethally in that theatre. As a result, they are often as much victims of their own limitations, or the machinations of their fellows, as of enemies. A quite similar view was presented in ‘The Blue Max’. There seems little doubt from autobiographies I’ve read that these fictional presentations are overegged, probably quite deliberately so, but they do provide a realistic cool counterblast to the endless sacrificial, saintly heroism of standard propaganda.
The best of WW2 literature, etc., seems well up to the sensitive, humanistic standards of WW1, but, as you say, far lower down the poetic scale. “Das Boot” for “All Quiet ..”, for example, and ‘Boy’ Wellum’s much-praised autobiography of a Spitfire pilot, “First Light” to compare with “Saggitarius Rising”.
One interesting difference between the two conflicts, in the U.K. at least, was the emergence of a generation of very fine comedians directly from the conflict, Peter Sellers, for example (better leave out the controversial Benny Hill). As a result a realtively new brand of black humour and irreverent parody flourished, which included WW1, often including a very wide-eyed, cynical view of the worst attitudes of the commanding officer class.
Please don’t hesitate to disagree with any of this. As if you would!
November 12th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Eh… I was expecting action photos.
November 12th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Dante,
I understand Roy Brown forgot to put a new memory card in his Nikon the day he shot down von Richthoven …
November 12th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
113. Dante: Can’t you just accept the wonder of these photographs?
My God! These are pieces of history, and you complain about the subject matter?
Do you have any wonder, any amazement, any astonishment left in your benighted, cramped little world? I pity you. I truly do.
November 13th, 2008 at 3:52 am
Dante: pls read this and let your mind take the photos!
The Effect
‘The effect of our bombardment was terrific.
One man told me he had never seen so many dead before.’
- War Correspondent.
‘He’d never seen so many dead before.’
They sprawled in yellow daylight while he swore
And gasped and lugged his everlasting load
Of bombs along what once had been a road.
‘How peaceful are the dead.’
Who put that silly gag in some one’s head?
‘He’d never seen so many dead before.’
The lilting words danced up and down his brain,
While corpses jumped and capered in the rain.
No, no; he wouldn’t count them any more…
The dead have done with pain:
They’ve choked; they can’t come back to life again.
When Dick was killed last week he looked like that,
Flapping along the fire-step like a fish,
After the blazing crump had knocked him flat…
‘How many dead? As many as ever you wish.
Don’t count ‘em; they’re too many.
Who’ll buy my nice fresh corpses, two a penny?’
Siegfried Sassoon
It’s a Queer Time
It’s hard to know if you’re alive or dead
When steel and fire go roaring through your head.
One moment you’ll be crouching at your gun
Traversing, mowing heaps down half in fun:
The next, you choke and clutch at your right breast -
No time to think – leave all – and off you go…
To Treasure Island where the Spice winds blow,
To lovely groves of mango, quince and lime -
Breathe no good-bye, but ho, for the Red West!
It’s a queer time.
You’re charging madly at them yelling “Fag!”
When somehow something gives and your feet drag.
You fall and strike your head; yet feel no pain
And find … you’re digging tunnels through the hay
In the Big Barn, ’cause it’s a rainy day.
Oh, springy hay, and lovely beams to climb!
You’re back in the old sailor suit again.
It’s a queer time.
Or you’ll be dozing safe in your dug-out -
A great roar-the trench shakes and falls about
You’re struggling, gasping, struggling, then… hullo!
Elsie comes tripping gaily down the trench,
Hanky to nose-that lyddite makes a stench -
Getting her pinafore all over grime.
Funny! because she died ten years ago!
It’s a queer time.
The trouble is, things happen much too quick;
Up jump the Boches, rifles thump and click,
You stagger, and the whole scene fades away:
Even good Christians don’t like passing straight
From Tipperary or their Hymn of Hate
To Alleluiah-chanting, and the chime
Of golden harps … and … I’m not well to-day…
It’s a queer time.
Robert Graves
November 13th, 2008 at 4:54 am
I have just downloaded “And the band played Waltzing Matilda” (credited to the Pogues and not Shane McGowan) and “The green fields of France” (sung by John McDermott).
“And the band played …” is a way different interpretation than I’ve ever heard. I’m not sure about it at the moment, but I’ll give it time.
I am now listening to something really fast and really loud!
November 13th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Very nice, like the John McCrae quote there. That one is on our Canadian bills, and we recite it every November 11th
November 13th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Fantastic list and great comments.
As a Soldier, I really appreciate that the commentary has not degraded into some fight over Iraq, or Bush, or one country vs. another, or whatever. So often, times when nations remember their war dead, people get side tracked into meaningless pissing matches. Sometimes people forget that there is a time for everything.
The poems are awesome, and i’ve always loved how the Pogues did Waltzing Matilda.
Thanks for remembering the fallen. Peace everyone.
November 13th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Mr.Plow- U Da Man !
November 13th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
I was browsing through the Norton Anthology of Poetry last night, looking for war poems, and found that, chronologically, Wilfred Owens is next to Dorothy Parker. What a contrast!
November 13th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Question
were the the cameras from that time period pretty bulky and stuff? just wondering because i was watching something on iraq war and they had small cameras that wouldnt get in the way and i wonder how big of a camera these guys had to tote around.
November 14th, 2008 at 1:27 am
To all who have posted poems/lyrics , Thank You.
Robert (69) Do you know who wrote the poem you quoted?
Re the question of whether the young of today would rush off in the same way. I doubt it, however one pleasing aspect of the actual remembrance ceremonies (Dawn Parades) on ANZAC Day are that the numbers of people attending is actually growing, especially the young. This is a very positive thing IMO.
Cheers
Lee
November 14th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
122. guy:…were the the cameras from that time period pretty bulky and stuff?
****
Yes, they were. They also took the photos on sheets of glass!
The equipment was incredibly heavy and awkward to move around. I had to learn how to use those cameras in Uni when working on my degree in Photography, so I have the utmost respect for the photographers who lugged that equipment into a war field.
November 14th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
segue,
I imagine the exposure times were not inconsiderable too by today’s standards, which must have put heavy limitations on action pictures. WW1 action recording seems to have been more the prerogative of moving film.
Since writing that I’ve just checked WW1 in my 1936 Hutchinson’s Pictorial Encyclopaedia. There’s a goodly clutch of photos, all B&W. But they mostly portray troops on the march, resting, being inspected, or in prepared positions, as well as many portraits of the leading figures (including the arrest of Prinzip!). In addition panoramas of the Grand Fleet and individual vessels are included. Impressive, atmospheric action shots are limited to four: A line of troops exiting a trench for an attack; a ground level take of silhouetted Scottish troops advancing with fixed bayonets across no man’s land; the battleship ‘Queen Mary’ exploding at the Battle of Jutland; and a wonderful moody aerial view taken from an airship gondola (partly included) of five Grand Fleet capital ships in line, leading the surrendered German Fleet to Scapa Flow. They are disappearing into sea mist, and the distant leading vessel is just visible.
Of course, military aerial photography, in particular of trench activity and displacements, was the most vital task of the early air forces during that first conflict. Second only in importance was stopping them returning to enemy intelligence. The huge cameras, often clamped to the side of the fuselage, pointed downwards, and took plate images. These reconnaisance machines had to be as stable as possible for the filming, which usually inevitably meant they were poorly manoevrable. Consequently a terrible toll was taken of their brave 2-man crews by the agile fighters (or scouts). They formed a large part of von Richtoven’s 80 victims. The fighters and their ace pilots are the glamour aspect that most lay people know of and imagine all the fuss was about. But in fact their job was secondary: to defend the reconnaisance machines against the enemy, to clear the sky of hostiles, and to shoot down or frighten off enemy reconnaisance. Photography, not the Vickers or the Spandau machine guns ruled up there. At one point the average life of a pilot at the front was two weeks.
As an afterthought: certainly for ciné records, there is not THAT much colour from WW2 either, and most of what there is was taken by US sources in the Pacific theatre, or during the final massive bombing raids over Europe. I recall as a very small child being very surprised to see any colour images unless they had been taken well away from the action, usually as portraits of machines or vessels.
November 14th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
thanks for answering my question segue.
i think it is amazing for someone to have to carry one of those things around to capture the pictures during a huge war like that. thank god we have people who do that too so that people can see what had happened so we can learn from our mistakes in the future.
November 15th, 2008 at 9:05 am
somehow, i happened to run across this web site today, and have been sitting here, the last few minutes reading all these responses. those poems…are amazing. i didn’t realize soldiers were writing poems like that, on the enemy line, not knowing when or where they were going die. not knowing if an enemy bullet or bomb could end their life. i am currently an american soldier, serving in korea, wouldn’t change my job for the world, and am proud to serve alongside my brothers and sisters in arms.
November 15th, 2008 at 9:17 am
126. guy: Your welcome. As you can see, Anon expanded on my answer, giving some details I had left out and/or forgotten.
War photographers are a breed apart, courageous and willing to tell a story most of us would never, ever come close to considering. I read history books, and look at the photos on battle fields and my stomach does flips, knowing what has gone into taking those shots.
I hope you’re right Guy, I hope we do learn from our past mistakes, but it’s not looking promising.
November 15th, 2008 at 9:24 am
128,
Why are war photographers a breed apart? Are you looking back through those lovely pink shades? (You know the thing about optimist. . .)
November 15th, 2008 at 10:13 am
ryan-
She just said they’re apart from other photographers because they are photographing war. Plain and simple. There aren’t very many people willing to go do that.
November 15th, 2008 at 11:52 am
segue,
Do we have any literature about active front photographers of WW1? How many there were? Who were famous? How many were killed during actions, etc.? (I suppose I’m being lazy, and this must be posted somewhere, but this is more or less being dashed off while I wait for the kettle to boil.)
We might even have a LV subject of *Breeds Apart* in that sense, including how many have been killed as a result. Those trying to report on or break mafias, drugs cartels and other criminal groups come to mind, both journalists and functionaries of law organisations.
Funny how some immediate event can sometimes relate to the subject in question. Yesterday Anita was having her handbag dipped in a shop in town. She jerked it away, but another customer saw the event and kindly warned her at the same moment. Anita’s mum once saw a lady stop a similar dip on a Santiago bus. They both got off together at the same stop, together with a man. The man approached the other woman, put his hand to her face, said gently, “Just mind your own business in future”, and walked off. The woman felt nothing immediately, but Anita’s mum saw blood spouting from where the hand had been. She had to accompany the victim to hospital for stitches and a transfusion. Anita’s dad always made sure to carry small change, in case someone in the street demanded with menaces. He said people can be knifed for refusing to give money or fags they don’t even have. So who wants to be wounded or even killed on principle over a few cents?
If that level of fear and intimidation can be provoked by petty thieves, imagine the astonishing bravery needed to face or infiltrate major criminal organisations without arms or protection.
November 15th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
War Photograher
by Carol Ann Duffy
In his darkroom he is finally alone
with spools of suffering set out in ordered rows.
The only light is red and softly glows,
as though this were a church and he
a priest preparing to intone a Mass.
Belfast. Beirut. Phnom Penh. All flesh is grass.
He has a job to do. Solutions slop in trays
beneath his hands which did not tremble then
though seem to now. Rural England. Home again
to ordinary pain which simple weather can dispel,
to fields which don’t explode beneath the feet
of running children in a nightmare heat.
Something is happening. A stranger’s features
faintly start to twist before his eyes,
a half-formed ghost. He remembers the cries
of this man’s wife, how he sought approval
without words to do what someone must
and how the blood stained into foreign dust.
A hundred agonies in black-and-white
from which his editor will pick out five or six
for Sunday’s supplement. The reader’s eyeballs prick
with tears between bath and pre-lunch beers.
From aeroplane he stares impassively at where
he earns a living and they do not care.
November 15th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
130. downhighway61: Thank you for understanding the simple truth and sharing it with ryan.
131. Anon: Specific books, I am unaware of, though I have quite a collection of books of photographs, some from the various wars. I even have some photos from the civil war.
If I was ever to do a book on photographs and photographers, I believe it would be on war correspondents. The courage it takes to put your life on the line just to tell a story, so that the people at home will get a more complete idea of what is happening on the front, just boggles me.
Yet I understand it in a way. Any photographer would understand it in a way. Put a camera in front of you, look at the world through a viewfinder, and a sense of immortality comes over you. You literally feel as if no harm can come to you.
It’s weird.
November 15th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Anon, the tales of Anita and Anita’s mum, chilled me to the bone.
How terrible to live with that kind of underflow of terror. Give her my love, and tell her to be careful. I think I’d find a way other than carrying a purse. I often go out here with just a few dollars and a debit card in the pocket of my skirt or my jeans. I just hate the hassle of a purse.
November 15th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
segue,
Thanks so much for the concern. In fact, a bit like the possibility of a major earthquake here, or even a road accident, we don’t have this sort of problem preying on our thoughts unless something has happened very recently to remind us. *Psychologically*, a shopping trip is not so different from its equivalent in the UK. However, something like travelling in crowded Santiago buses, its central pedestrian areas and malls, or the metro there if packed does require exceptional care though, and gets it from us! The same goes for leaving our jeep parked in many places. Fortunately we have a steering-wheel bar-lock from UK that isn’t available here, so I guess the villains look in and walk on to easier pickings. Of course we always take the radio out too when parking for critically long periods. These precautions have stood us in fine stead.
The worst thing that happened wasn’t our fault. In 2005, we took a batch of our important dried specimens down to Concepción for identification at the University floral centre. The project concerned had ratted by not providing required expenses. So we found cheap lodgings via a friend instead of the usual hotel with a (required) integral lock-up garage. We were given the walled playground of the institution’s school to park overnight, which we were assured was safe as houses. In the morning we found the door lock in a strange, obviously tampered condition, assumed someone had tried to break in, but had failed, as there was no sign of anything missing (of course all personal valuables had been taken to the room, even though a good long distance away). But when we came to check for the specimens, a large shopping bag containing a selection of the most important and irreplaceable of them was missing. We suspect that probably the caretaker had come in early, been disturbed, grabbed the bag and had it away on his toes. Of course a load of dried vegetation would have been utterly worthless, and our anger and frustration was fuelled in that it would simply have been flung away. We checked all the nearby trash bins in vain. In that one felony we lost our relevant collection of two major, important families and a number of other critical individual specimens for checking. Among the losses were at least two, and perhaps four collections new to science for Chile. All are dependant on El Niño rains that may not fall for ten or more years. Two are effectively irreplaceable by ourselves. One, happily, we managed to replace on our last, very recent field trip. For want of a penny …
November 15th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
steffy, (127),
Back on topic!
How gratifying to know the topic and its comments mean so much to someone such as yourself.
Just a minor change of perspective now, not a criticism: In fact, as Randall has implied, these people would have considered themselves as poets first and foremost rather than soldiers. Certainly several of the survivors, such as Robert Graves, continued life as professional literary figures. They all had war thrust upon them and became unavoidably swept up into it.
Of the 44 poets included in the Penguin anthology, 13 were killed in action.
November 16th, 2008 at 2:42 am
Steffy,
I would be remiss if I didn’t second Anon’s post. I do have collections of poems which contain many of those cited above, plus many more. War doesn’t stop people from doing what they are born to do, in fact I think it increases the chance they will do it under the most horrendous circumstances. Writers, or photographers, or artists, have an innate need to create. When each hour may be ones last, the need to create becomes even greater.
There are some books called (if I remember correctly) “Letters Home”, filled with letters from soldiers to their loved ones back home. The letters cover many wars, I believe from the Revolutionary War to Vietnam of the Gulf Wars. I’d look them up but it’s almost 2 in the morning. Anyway, they are fascinating looks into the minds of these men. Some are beautiful enough to make you weep.
I suggest you find a copy.
November 16th, 2008 at 3:09 am
Steffy: Recently a number of people in Korea have posted. I started a forum called (Teaching English) in Korea (http://listverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1371). It’s for anyone in Korea, probably foreigners, but not limited to teachers. A former colleague of mine has strong ties to the US military here.
November 16th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
8 & 11 capture my interest more than the others for some reason…
November 17th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Anon- I dont know if im just dumb but half the time I dont know WTF your talking about ! IM 51 and im attempting to relate but you got me perplexed.Im American and from the south and with all due respect some of the stuff you come up with I dont get. Peace out.
November 17th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
But I will fight to the death anyones right to be misunderstood.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:38 am
Brilliant list – incredibly evocative. Those young men who went “looking for adventure” – as Aussie singer words it in his song ‘Gallipoli’ – You can’t blame a bloke who likes adventure / He saw the posters on the wall / See the world through the sights of a rifle / Grab your mates and go to war.
Cynical as those words sound – they’re not – you have to listen to the whole song.
They were wonderful young men – the “Flower of our youth” as A.E.Bean wrote (the official Australian war correspondent / hiatorian).
I too read a wonderful book recently – was never into the WW1 appreciation thing – despite a LOT of family serving – I was more WW2, ’cause my dad fought in that one with the British Army (he’s a Scot) – and it was closest to my era; born in ‘58; but have grownto appreciate the sacrifices of those young naive men who fought because “it was the right thing to do”; My Grandfather (dad’s dad) was in the ‘Kosbies’ – King’s Own Scottish Borderers – and was gassed three times, he had a brother who was gassed and later killed and three others who also fought.
Back to the Book: “The Great War” by Les Carlyon – I think I wept through about 1/3 of it!
Great to see one contributor acknowledging her ‘home poet’ for “In Flanders Field”:
“Remembrance Day is a big deal in Canada. In Flanders Fields was written by a Canadian doctor – Lt.Col John McRae after he watched the death of a friend.”
It should alo be remembered that McCrae, as I understand it, was wounded himself at the time and awaiting treatment (or in ‘recovery’ but died soon after; correct me if i’m wrong, but I believe the poem was found among his effects after he was found to be dead.
Final Note: a correction.
Image #5 “Australian Soldier Gathering Anemones”
For Shame! That Australian Soldier is not just an Australian Soldier – he’s a member of the famous “Light Horse Brigade” and those “anemones” he’s gathering are POPPIES !!!!!
November 18th, 2008 at 6:40 am
Sorry folks – in the previous post I MEANT to write “as Aussie singer, JOHN WILLIAMSON words it in his song ‘Gallipoli.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:22 am
“140. bigski – November 17th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Anon- I dont know if im just dumb but half the time I dont know WTF your talking about ! IM 51 and im attempting to relate but you got me perplexed.Im American and from the south and with all due respect some of the stuff you come up with I dont get. Peace out.
141. bigski – November 17th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
But I will fight to the death anyones right to be misunderstood.”
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Sorry, you’ve floored me. I don’t know WTF that’s related to or intended to mean. This thread? All threads? Some comments? All comments?
Logical solution. Try simply not reading. i.e. ignoring, any comments headed ‘Anon’. Because as long as I get positive feedback from Americans such as segue, Cyn, Randall and others, I’ll go on posting.
Aw shit, what’s the use. You’re not going to know WTF I’m suggesting here anyway.
November 18th, 2008 at 10:06 am
bigski,
Do you walk into a newspaper or book shop, pick out any you don’t know WTF they’re on about,or don’t understand the subject, then tell the owner you can’t relate to some of the stuff on sale? Just curious to know.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Muttley, (142) (and stay TF out of this bigski),
“…and those “anemones” he’s gathering are POPPIES !!!!!”
Are you prepared to take the word of a professional botanist who’s acquainted with the poppies and anemones of the regions where WW1 was fought, and has traveled in those regions studying their flora?
Admittedly that photo is hardly ideal for botanical identification, but it is good enough to leave no doubt whatsoever in my mind, even as to the species.
It’s Anemone coronaria L., the crown anemone. The compiler and/or captionist is/are correct. Why?
Flanders poppies (Papaver rhoeas L.) are tallish, slender plants which sway or dance in the wind on delicate, flexible stems up to 90 cm. Their petals are somewhat crumpled, like red tissue paper. They have nodding buds. The centre of the flower has a characteistic large, flat stigmatic disc, familiar to all who know the opium popppy. They do not collectively have white bases to the petals except in garden forms. Pick them and the fragile, evanescent petals will wither or fall almost immediately, above all in hot sun. It flowers in high summer in northern Europe, earlier in the med.
Anemone coronaria (the anemone de Caen of hort.) is a short, stout, compact plant of about 8-30 cm, with sturdy, long-lasting flowers, ideal for cutting, which is why it has been domesticated for over 400 years. The central cluster of newly-forming seeds is very characteristically covered in an all-black fuzz, as may be clearly seem in the pic. It usually has a white base to the petals (which disqualifies it from being the similar Ranunculus asiaticus), and although it comes in other colours such as pink and violet, all-red populations are not at all uncommon in the wild. It flowers very early in the year.
I looked at the picture straight away too myself, and by matching botany with history, figured it must surely have been taken in the Gallipoli region some time quite early in the year, probably between February and April. If that doesn’t fit in with the movements of the LHB, historians, how about the Mespopotamia or Palestine campaigns?
Failing that, we either need a professional digital sharpening up of the flowers in the photo, or I’d better go back and take a taxonomy refresher course!
(You can open your eyes now, bigski.)
November 18th, 2008 at 11:20 am
P.S. In case it’s needed to tie in with the disposition of the LHB, I should have added that the anemone is found throughout the Mediterranean region, but not significantly outside it: certainly nowhere in northern Europe.
November 18th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
bigski,
“IM 51″
So sorry, I missed it first time around. Many Happy Returns!
(Adds row of smiley things.)
November 18th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Anon -
have a glass of wine. or cuppa herbal tea. or a walk outside. or whatever calms ya down. remember..its only the internet. and too..not all Americans are idiots. nor is everyone over 50 smart.
exceptions being this soon to be 52 yr old American.
took me a while to learn to keep the internet in perspective. i took it all way too seriously for too long. which is not to say i do not still cherish the friends i’ve made along the way but for the most part ..its bullshit.
exception to that one of course are the lists..especially those written by Jamie.
*kiss kiss* to J
November 18th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Cyn,
Ta very much for your concern. Doncha worry, luv, whatever it looks like on paper, I’m havin’ fun. The time of my life wallowing in bullshit. Nice change from work. Wooden miss it for words. Not a single point notch-up on the blood-pressure count either. Didn’t know how boring existence was before, et cetera, that sweet old etcetera (with apologies to E. E. Cummings for pinching the last phrase from his WW1 poem. See I’m ever on topic!)
But I’ll have the glass of wine and toast yer. Plus, here’s to the lists! And I’ll take a stroll around the garden too, past the first of the scented lilies and the last of the spring rhodos, and wish you were here. It’s getting into the cooler, fragrant warmth of the evening after over 30ºC earlier at high noon.
And Cyn, if all Americans were indeed born idiots, Anita and I’d have about half the number of great, good friends!
November 18th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Anon, I thought you might like to know…several of my Brunsvigia rosea, (or Amaryllis belladonna,) are sprouting! So are my tulips!
We’ve been having an extremely warm autumn, warmer than summer. I think everything is confused about it’s growth cycle. I’m still having to feed things that normally would have gone dormant weeks ago.
Frankly, I’m confused.
Even my Jacaranda are still putting on growth.
I’m beginning to feel as if I don’t have just a green thumb, but an emerald green thumb.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
BTW, Anon, you and Anita are still on for that visit anytime, ya know.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Anon-
i want all the names and phone numbers of all non-idiot Americans 50 or older.
okay..will make an age exception for single straight males over 35.
damn..now there’s an idea for J as a side project…
LV dating service! ROFLMAO!!
formalize this hookup process we’ve had going on in comments.
or just as good…have LV meetups IRL like someplaces have had/are having. hhhmmm…
November 18th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Cyn: i want all the names and phone numbers of all non-idiot Americans 50 or older.
1. George W Bush?
November 18th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
astraya -
non-idiot Americans
November 19th, 2008 at 6:48 am
OK I’m not a botanist – but they still look like poppies! Palestine would be a good guess (or Gallipoli – the Light Horse fought in both) However, at least I had the dignity to put my name to the comment and not snipe from the shadows as “Anonymous”.
Anon. – You’re a wanker!
November 19th, 2008 at 9:00 am
156. Muttley: However, at least I had the dignity to put my name to the comment and not snipe from the shadows as “Anonymous”.
Anon. – You’re a wanker!
****
MUTTley: MUTT, look around you, moron, how many posters use their real name? And let’s have a show of hands here, how many believe Muttley is this guys real name?
I thought not.
Anon is a botanist, a scientist. He knows what flora are. I read the exchange you are excoriating him for, and it is entirely undeserved.
He was offering information.
Information!
Do you get all hot and bothered by the Encyclopedia, too? It offers information.
Did you fail school, because you wouldn’t listen to your teachers while they were offering you information?
Drat! I’ve got to stop, I could take this to the most absurd level ever.
I think you’re just a whiner, MUTTley.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Muttley,
Your post 156 will tell all onlookers infinitely more about you that mine remotely told you about me.
To begin with, you seem to be one who would have the gall to tell Einstein that he didn’t know shit about relativity. On top of that, your paranoia, ignorance and obscene impudence in such a short post almost qualifies for the Guinness Book of Records, and immediately relegates you to the e-underworld of LV trollz.
Oh, so you’re the famous Muttley? Of course, how foolish of me, the one everybody here knows about. So how’s Dastardly doing these days?
For your information, my LV name is Anon, not Anonymous. But why should I bother with the pathetic likes of you? It’s not the first time I’ve had to point out the same grammatical ignorance of the semi-literate. Anon. is the shortened version of anonymous. How’s your eyesight? Can you see that little punctuation mark known as a full-stop or period. Anon without that has the same meaning as in “Ever and anon”. Oh dear, more sniping by that pompous intellectual snob Anon.
So you think segue, blogball, bigski, downhighway61, astraya, clarkekentyboy, bucslim, slickwilly, even Randall, are putting their *real* names, you blinkered twerp? And that’s only a minute fraction of LV posters.
Next up, I suggest you take the thorns out of your arse and learn to distinguish the difference between someone kicking you in the balls and trying to provide some helpful information from their own store of professional knowledge to expand the topic.
“… those “anemones” he’s gathering are POPPIES !!!!!”
That, my dear Dastardly, is known as ignorant kicking in the balls, or as sniping by you (what a clever-clever word for the topic!). By the by, it’s also an OTT-presented error for which you have still not apologised to our insulted compiler and respected site-owner. Have a read in other topics about the (mis-)use of multiple exclamations as well.
And if you feel you’re being kicked in the balls now, you indeed are. You asked for it. And I wouldn’t go whining to Cyn if I were you.
Final recommendation: If it’s too late to get a life, at least learn to show a bit of restrained respect when replying to thoughtful, non-provocative posts.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:16 am
To all respectful and respectable commenters and onlookers; to the sombre nature of this topic; and to the shades of those who fought and died, including my own:
Regrets for the two unseemly, irreverent spats above involving me. I hope they’re put to rest. I didn’t start or provoke either, and shall certainly not be contributing further.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Anon -
lol..that one comment made me think..’i'll be wearing your balls as earrings’…an old threat used on idiots when i was young.
as for making apologies for derailing comments..you are the last person here that should ever do that!
nope..i’ve changed my tune…the core community of commentors have earned the privilege of derailing comments, going off topic by whatever means necessary to chastise, humiliate and basically put the trollz, comment mastubators, and other assorted idiots and assholes in their place.
in all deference to this or any list topic.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:31 am
segue and Cyn,
Thanks. I love you both. You know. You’ve made my life even more worthwhile.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:42 am
LOL well, lets not get all mushy about it.
like most sites…we have traffic some of whom comment and move on then just to stick to the lists. there is certain mentality that goes for commenting. some folks just comment to comment and then there are those that comment for more nefarious reasons.
then there is our community of commentors. it is the community that will sustain the site over time..not the drive thru comment folks. so i will always be deferential to them. and grateful as well.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Cyn,
Nothing mushy, not with all those balls dangling from my ears, more like a neolithic crack over the skull and dragging the pair of youse by the hair!
November 19th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Anon -
you made me laugh. thanx. i need all the laughs i can get. 
November 19th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Anon, I love you, too. I’ll throw myself in front of any Muttley any day for you!
By the by, “hi” to Anita.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:56 am
funny. I’ll bet the topics “love” and “war” have more poetry written about them than any other topic. It’s odd considering they are about as opposite as …… well, having diamonds or balls hanging from your ears.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
But both right up there at the forefront of evolution:
Sexual selection and survival!
Oh sorry, wrong topic.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Anon, sex and survival are *never* off topic!
November 19th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
i agree with 168
November 19th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Ah, folks,
I was actually referring to *evolution*; trying to forstall one of those massively tedious disputes that arise every time that 9-letter word raises its innocent little head.
I’ll certainly drink to sex and survival, any time of the day and night you will.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Anon, I know that dear, but I can’t help pulling your leg when you leave it so vulnerably exposed.
I sometimes wish I had better will power, but alas, I don’t. So. Leave me an opening and I’ll take full advantage, but never to the point of hurting you.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
segue,
Having my legs pulled never worries me unduly or calls for retaliation. Being kicked between them is an entirely different matter though!
November 19th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Anon, you never have to worry about that with me.
My daughter, the rugby hooker on the other hand, might be a different story! Not that she doesn’t like boys, she does, very much, but she is quite skilled in both rugby and martial arts ( capoeira ), and has taken down a man a foot taller than herself.
You really want to stay on her good side.
November 19th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Muttley
A suggestion, if you feel the need to make a similar correction to a history list as that in your last sentence of your 142 please let me know in advance so I can see the reply from our professional historian. I’ll save ringside seats for the other regulars
One of the joys of this community if you stay around is that it is peopled by some VERY knowledgeable folks. So I found a good rule of thumb is that if someone like Anon says “As a professional….”. It is best to take them at their word and listen. Fakes tend to be found out pretty quickly.
Cheers
Lee
November 19th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
k1w1taxi,
Lee, I’ve been breezing through a few of Muttley’s posts here and elsewhere, and have to say that by and large they seem quite reasonable and laid back when he’s in a fairly neutral thread like this. He even graciously acknowledges someone’s correction, yes, a correction, in the sporting topic. In fact his outburst at me seems totally out of character. If he hadn’t added the data about the LHB in Gallipoli and Palestine (which I’ve since verified myself: not out of doubt, but trying to workout which), I’d have thought one of those wankers who posts under regulars’ pseudonyms was at work.
The only possible conclusion I can draw is that he somehow interpreted my response as an attempt to shaft him intellectually and threw a crazy wobbly. But I’ve read mine through carefully and can’t for the life of me see how anyone could. I even thought about that aspect and added a light comment at the end to *defuse* the rather uppity technical descriptions. I should have thought I also made it clear as daylight I was as interested as anything in using the botany as an insight into the history, not simply to work a smart one over him.
Well, there you are. I’ve reopened communication with Muttley in another thread, so the ball is really in his court.
As you say, he may consider himself fortunate not to have crossed swords with a more merciless LV opponent we all wot of. One who isn’t nearly so inclined to throw out olive branches, if at all!
On the other hand that stupid prat bigski can get stuffed or get a life, whichever he prefers.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Anon I never said anything about you or attacked you personally I just said I didnt know what you were talking about.But you just attacked me and I kind of felt bad because I didnt know you would get so bent out of shape about it. Shame on you for calling me a prat whatever that means.Save your insults for someone that calls you a wanker whatever that means instead of jumping my ass about my ignorance of your verbage !
November 19th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
If I’m being over-obsessive, ignore this. But for anyone interested in the close similarity but clear differences between Flanders poppies and de Caen anemones, keep going, first on:
http://www.west-crete.com/flowers-crete.htm
Then click on the title *Flowers of Crete*. Scroll down the RH column of the resulting thumbnail images headed *non endemic flowers*
The 12th image down is the poppy, Papaver rhoeas. Click on the image to get a full-screen version. The pale stigmatic disc at the centre of the flower is unmissable.
The 13th image below it is Anemone coronaria. It shows a mixed-colour population, but predominantly red. The white base of the petals and all-black central organs (as per the topic image) are perfectly illustrated.
Incidentally, the red form of the anemone is also known popularly as the poppy anemone. I didn’t add that to my original response to Muttley in case it caused confusion.
As an historical footnote, my researches told me that the Australian LH were present in early spring both at Gallipoli and Palestine. My guess, and it’s only a stab-in-the-dark guess, is that the topic photo may more likely have been taken in Palestine. The reason being that the spring is earlier and hotter further south. So I would have expected the ground around Gallipoli perhaps to be greener at the time anemones were flowering, rather than brown and scorched as apparently in the historic photo. Admittedly though, that could also be the type of terrain.
End of *forensic* investigation!
November 19th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Sorry, I’m new to this game. You get taken straight to the images, so ignore my “…click on the title…” instruction.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Prat,Cotes-d Armor – A department in France , Arturo Prat- A Chilean Naval officer, Jean Prat- A French Rugby Union Footballer, Prat,Kansas, Prat,West Virginia, Prat,Minnesota, Prath, the Syriac name for the Euphrates River, (a slight variation in spelling) Pratt Knot, Pratt Institute, Pratt & Whitney, Pratts Bottom. WOW I found out prat aint so bad I think I want to be a Chilean Naval Officer though being called a stupid Chilean Naval Officer is kinda harsh i`ll stick with that.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
From the front page of wikipedia today: “The last French soldier to die in the First World War, was shot 15 minutes before the war ended.” From the article: “It has been speculated that the attack was to end any possible hesitations by German negotiators at Compiègne.”
So the French may not be cheese-eating surrender monkeys after all!
November 19th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Ohh, I want to visit Pratt’s Bottom! (Anon, being a well-travelled Englishman, is likely to say that he’s already been there!)
November 19th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
bigski,
I’m more than happy to call truce or even peace. I’ve no interest whatever in keeping up a feud in LV, or anywhere else, if it comes to that. Thanks for explaining rather than digging in deeper. I appreciate that takes some doing.
However it was intended, “I dont know WTF your talking about” did come over as a personal attack, or at least a personal insult, I’m afraid. I just couldn’t understand what I’d done to provoke you, or why you should come at me out of the blue like that. I think if you’d written the same to Randall, Lecter or quite a few other regulars, you could have expected a similar or probably tougher response. Unfortunately, when people make critical remarks on LV, they tend to mean it nastily. I’ve been bitten more than once that way before, so tend to try to snuff it out before things get out of hand. I’ll happily take and understand a piss-pull from folks I exchange regularly with here, but tend to assume anyone else is just being serious and vicious, for reasons best known to themselves.
So no, no shame on me, my reaction was not so unreasonable. And actually, while not exactly complimentary, *prat* comes pretty low down the scale of insults, and I’ll happily withdraw it and the rest.
By the way, bigski, take a look at:
“I suggest you take the thorns out of your arse.”
“And if you feel you’re being kicked in the balls now, you indeed are.”
That’s what people who call me a wanker can expect! I used to defend myself with much worse once upon a time in LV (as a naval guy, you’d be really proud of my full vocab!), but decided it’s generally more effective and dignified to turn the heat down.
What more can I say? Only that I don’t expect everyone here to understand or even like what I post. I try to come up with what I hope may be of interest, but know it always risks boring at least somebody. Sometimes posting also gets to be a conversation with someone else about a subject that’s just of interest to the two of us anyway, or an dispute between two. That just happens, and its one of the things I enjoy about LV, because it can lead to friendships. I also find plenty of topics that don’t light my fire. Very often they contain jargon, slang or comments that mean little or nothing to me anyway. So I just give them the bum’s rush. It seems the obvious thing to do.
If I ever happen to write something that genuinely interests you, but you can’t make it out, ask me! I won’t bite, honest.
Well, not very hard.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
No doubt
November 19th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
bigski: Anon has one of the stranger senses of humour around here. If you don’t understand anything he says, it’s probably the arch English sense of humour at work. I share a similar sense of humour and there are times when I don’t understand what he’s talking about, but I have said “What are you talking about?” I’m sure you could say many southern-US things that he (or I) wouldn’t understand.
Anon: I think I crossed swords with bigski elsewhere, and I think I remember him as being an honourable opponent. (I think! If I remember, or find, what it was, and he isn’t, I’ll withdraw that.) (Please don’t remind me, in case I have to.)
I always assumed that your username was short for “Anonymous”, given your Mark Twain/Lazarus return from the dead. I worked for a publishing company where house style was not to use full stops for abbreviations, so I’m not used to expecting them, or thinking about what their presence or absence signifies.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
OK big man.I know Im a bit of a smartass but I sincerly didnt understand what you were talking about and as for WTF I just thought was regular internet speak. Maybe because of the Big Pond things get lost in translation.I dont mind getting a ball breaking now and then either,good to keep a person on his toes.If I dont understand you in the future i`ll try not to be such a prat. Whatever the flowers are there pretty.Peace out!
November 19th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
astraya- I commented on that I didnt get your list on singing from the 1700`s and still dont.But if its fun for you im all for it.Now in the future if I print something you dont understand its just my wierd since of humor I mean no harm.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
P.S. Im a Naval Guy also Anon. U.S that is.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
bigski,
We’re in a conversation. You dunwell. Much better even than you think.
I live in Chile, so it slays me that Arturo Prat is their great naval hero, like Nelson for the Brits. You wouldn’t want to be him, though, bigski. In fact Admiral Cochrane (a contemporary of Nelson) is probably a better national candidate. Cochrane, a brilliant fighting sailor, organised and led their naval forces to overwhelming victory in the sea battles for independence against the Spaniards. But he was Scottish. Prat, on the other hand, was pure Chilean, and a part-time naval captain in the later Pacific war against Bolivia and Peru. His out-of-date steam warship came up against a more modern, better armed and armoured Peruvian opponent, and was sunk, with the heroic loss of Prat and most others. But it acted as a gallant delaying action. The Chilean naval forces rallied, and defeated the Peruvians, including the gallant Grau, who had polished off Prat. (Oh Cripes, another anecdote. bigski will have my guts for garters!)
And astraya is so much more on target than he could ever have guessed. Not only have I visited Pratts Bottom, I lived near there all my childhood and for a good part of my adult life too. In fact for over a year I used to cycle through Pratts Bottom to work (if you can picture the image!) every weekday! Anita knows Pratts Bottom too, as we visit a childhood friend still living in the area whenever we go back to England. In order to travel there from where I lived, by bike, car or anything else, one has first to pass over Badgers Mount. Or as my dear old Dad used to say, “Of course they do, or we wouldn’t get little badger cubs”. Well, there you are, bigski, if you will *feed* me like this, how can I possibly avoid anecdotes?
Pratt & Whitney made some of the best aircraft engines, especially in WW2 (maybe I shouldn’t praise the US after what’s going on over in the sporting thread!). Douglas C-47 Dakota, Martin B-26 Marauder, Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, Boeing B-50 Superfort, Consolidated B-24 Liberator, Consolidated PBY Catalina, Grumman F4F Wildcat and F6F Hellcat were just some of the frontline machines they powered.
It is indeed somewhat unfortunate, or anglophoney, that the French should have fielded rugby players called Prat and Condom!
I’ve explored a lot around the Euphrates River area, and didn’t know that name for it. Thanks.
Nothing to add to any more of yours, bigski, you’ll be relieved to hear.
Pratfall is a theatrical term for someone who suffers any kind of physical or verbal public indignity. (Maybe someone can describe it better than that.) That is really the origin of the *prat* I threw at you, bigski. My Slang Thesaurus has it under the heading: *Unintellectual; Foolish*, which I take back unreservedly from you. Strangely, the Thesaurus doesn’t cover a much cruder meaning I’ve known since a boy, and which I certainly didn’t intend here, by the way.
There’s a plover-like bird called the pratincole, which I’ve seen once on the steppe.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
I fear we’ve profaned the topic again. May we be forgiven.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
astraya,
“I worked for a publishing company where house style was not to use full stops for abbreviations, so I’m not used to expecting them, or thinking about what their presence or absence signifies.”
If you haven’t figured out I’m a nit-picking pedant by now, you never will …
In fact Poet and Pedant, as Franz von Suppé would have it.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
bigski: I live with the sad knowledge that many people don’t get early choral music. I won’t hold that against you.
Anon: Why doesn’t that surprise me in the slightest?
November 19th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rude-Britain-Rudest-Place-Names/dp/0752225812
November 20th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Picture #3 operating on a horse,#8 soldiers,women & baby, #10 haircut day, #18 soldiers cooking. Why are these soldiers not identified like the others ? Whoever can answer that gets history props from me.
November 20th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
For extra credit who are the prisoners of war ? They appear to be cooking potato`s & cabbag .
November 20th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
astraya,
I believe you’ve just beamed up my next Chrissie pressie (comes before ny next annual ring mark-up count). Many thanx. Whichever of my girls ends up buying it will have a job not to betray evidence of her paw marks on the copy. Perhaps, though, she’ll be pretty sure signs of opening can laid at the door of Chilean customs!
Apropos, reading the *Rude* reviews reminded me of a priceless cricket commentary name take, which I must immediately post on the Fantastic Names topic …
Your question addressed to me had a rhetorical air about it, so I’ll leave it to speak for itself.
November 20th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
*girls* = two daughters, to save speculation.
November 20th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
bigski,
No expert, but I’m pretty damn sure pic 3 is French military: 10 are French or Belgian: and the PoWs look to be German. I ought to know the forage caps of 8 and 18, which are obviously the same. Not American, by any chance?
Right, having blundered about, I’ll leave the experts to straighten the mess out, and probably tell me there’s a wiki site with WW1 uniforms. Pax: I’m only a non-fanatical air war man anyway.
November 20th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
“Pratfall is a theatrical term for someone who suffers any kind of physical or verbal public indignity.”
I should have put: pratfall is a basically theatrical term for the undignified event or happening someone suffers, whether accidental or deliberate. A literal and figurative example would be going arse over tit on a banana skin.
November 20th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
I caint get 8 or 18 to enlarge so I caint tell if there U.S.troops or not.I just noticed the sign on the tree on 10 looks to be French I guess. I was kind of curious.Thanks.
November 20th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
In 18 two of the soldiers are wearing what look to be American Army hats. The third guy is something else.
November 20th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
segue,
Yes, I was referring to those two. I’m glad you confirmed my vague memory that was WW1 US uniform. My presumption is that the third bloke may be a civilian cook wearing discarded French military headgear. Or a very sloppy member of some European force! If you took the caps off the Americans, they wouldn’t look that smart either though. Could be they’re a trench-digging fatigue.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
The children in #11 have some kind of toy or whatever which is kind of prominent in the picture.Wonder what that`s about ?
November 21st, 2008 at 10:34 am
Anon,
Glad to be of some small help, and you’re right, the third man does look to be wearing French headgear in pretty poor condition. All three are in pretty poor condition.
bigski,
My first impression of the “toys” the children were playing with the wooden uprights from a croquet set. Probably a mile off the mark, but a strong first impression.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:06 pm
segue and bigski,
I wondered if they might be some kind of skittles?
November 21st, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Anon! That is exactly what they look like! They just don’t have the ball. That’s what threw me.
Yup. Skittles. I’d bet on it.
November 23rd, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I didn`t know what skittles was so I looked it up and by jove I think your right.
November 23rd, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Thanks bigski. It’s nice to get a response. Whether agreement or respectful correction!
November 23rd, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Hey! I agreed!
205. segue: Anon! That is exactly what they look like! They just don’t have the ball. That’s what threw me.
Yup. Skittles. I’d bet on it.
November 23rd, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Sorry segue,
Of course. Sure as hell I didn’t mean to snub you or leave you out. The reason I addressed 207 specifically to bigski was that he threw out the question about the toys in the first place. I guess I unforgiveably took our constant constructive flow for granted. But I get so pissed off by people either ignoring or rudely rebuffing attempts to be helpful, that I felt I ought to acknowledge one who was decent enough to show appreciation. It’s something I try not to pass by in any topic.
November 23rd, 2008 at 7:55 pm
I’m the one who’s sorry.
Of course you knew I’d replied. This stupid stuff on the other list, combined with a major dose of fatigue is setting off bells where none are required.
You did exactly the right thing, the thing I would have done in your place. And no, our constant constructive flow is something that, while it shouldn’t be taken for granted, can certainly be assured to exist without constant reassurance…there’s something wrong with that sentence, but I’m too dosed to notice exactly what.
Anyway, everything’s good.
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
For those interested while some do look hand coloured most are Paget Plates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paget_process
They were used a bit by the famous war photographer Frank Hurley
Paget plates work kinds like a TV with little Red Green and Blues squares placed closely next to each other each being exposed and recording that colour. After processing they need a special viewing screen to see the colour in the images and moving the screen will vary the results
December 2nd, 2008 at 6:50 pm
211. Chup:…while some do look hand coloured…
****
Only barely.
I hand color a lot of my photographs. I’ve been doing so for (oh, God!) 30 something years, and I’ve tried a lot of different methods. The one I use most often, most successfully, gives me the opportunity to either make the photo look like a color photo, using true true to life colors (which would make no sense at all since I can just take them that way in the beginning)or choose any colors I want, make the sky any color I want, make anything anyway I choose.
Hand-colored photos, in the early days, had a brightness to them, a perfection of color that simply didn’t exist in nature. They were easy to spot because they were too perfect. The colorist would clean people up, tidy their faces and hands.
Look at these men, they’re dirty. They’re filthy! These are beautiful, real color photographs.
You’re right about Frank Hurley as one of the early color photographers. But there were other methods and other photographers. They don’t look like Paget plates to me, but we’re both looking at such degenerated photo’s it would be impossible to say without a signature or a document.
Who cares anyway? They are beautiful. They are here. That, after-all, is what matters.
December 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 am
Australian soldier gathers anemones. Colour photography from world war I.
December 3rd, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Photo #2 is Autochrome color picture by Jean-Baptiste Tournassoud of North-African soldiers, Oise, France, 1917.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Great pictures…
My Great-Grandfather fought in WWI… one of the stories that I heard relayed to me by my Grand Mother was that the soldiers would sing back and forth to each other on some nights.
During the Christmas that he was in the trenches, they exchanged food, drinks and some pieces of “War Art” with the “enemy”. It seems funny when you think about it. War was just something that they were doing, it was not who they were. War today does not do this… it is all or nothing now.
After the war, mt Great-Grandfather actually ended up staying in touch with a couple of the german soldiers he met that Christmas and they remained good friends until my G-G-Father died of liver disease in 1949. I will have to post his picture online in a day or so then put the link up here.
Thanks for the pictures!
Samuel Wright
http://www.samuraimarineblog.com
December 19th, 2008 at 4:31 am
Australian soldier gathers anemones. Colour photography from world war I.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:43 am
Great pictures! Least we forget…
Post # 55: I had the same thought, t. Number 4 does look more like a painting to me, too.
And the pants, shirts and caps in # 18 have a much more modern appearance than those in all the other photos, which lead me to believe that it’s from WWII or at least a lot later than the First World War.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
#14’s title is misprinted. It is “Prisoners of War”, no apostrophe.