We put a lot of trust in our teachers – as pupils we trust that they know what they are talking about, and as parents we trust that they are educating our children. But unfortunately (and no doubt unintentionally) many of our teachers repeat the same myths that they were taught. Through the Internet we pick up the odd myth here and there and even in books and papers we see the same errors being repeated. This is the third in our “fact” debunking lists – the other two are: Top 10 Fascinating Facts That Are Wrong, and 10 More Fascinating Facts That Are Wrong. As always, be sure to add any of your favorites via the comments below.
Myth: high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is making us fat
Since HFCS entered the American food supply in the 1970s, and the rates of obesity started to rise about then. Consequently, many blame HFCS for the fat plague. It’s true of course that the calories HFCS contributes can be linked to the nation’s obesity problems, but its calories are no different from those in refined white sugar: the makeup of HFCS (55 percent fructose and 45 percent glucose) is close to that of white sugar (50 percent fructose and 50 percent glucose), which means that our bodies digest HFCS and sugar in very similar ways. Nutritionally speaking, the two are virtually identical.
Interesting Fact: Coca Cola produced in Mexico is still made with sugar (as opposed to corn syrup in the US), and many people claim to be able to taste the difference – refusing to buy the “inferior” American coke. Unfortunately a truly scientific blind test has not been done and the various tests online all vary widely in their conclusions.
Myth: Cell phones cause brain cancer
Lawsuits and news headlines have fueled the myth that cell phones cause cancer, particularly brain cancer, and 30 percent of Americans still believe this myth, according to the Discovery Health/Prevention telephone survey. Consumers could easily have missed the reports showing no danger from cell phones because they didn’t receive alarming front-page coverage like the original reports. A few studies suggested a link with certain rare types of brain tumors, but the consensus among well-designed population studies is that there is no consistent association between cell phone use and brain cancer. [Source]
Interesting Fact:The very first patent for a cell phone like device (wireless telephone) was granted in 1908 to Nathan B. Stubblefield who some people claim invented the radio before Tesla and Marconi. Stubblefield died as a self-imposed hermit by starving to death.
Myth: The number of hooves in the air on a statue of a horse tells us how its rider died
In my research for this list I was very surprised to come across this myth – I, like many others, had always believed it to be true! The idea is that when a statue of a horse has one foot in the air, his rider was wounded in battle but survived. If he has two hooves in the air the rider was killed, and if he has none in the air, the rider survived. While this is a myth – interestingly it does seem to apply to the majority of statues relating to Gettysburg equestrians though not James Longstreet who was not wounded but his statue does have one leg raised (pictured above).
Interesting Fact:A statue of a horse with a rider is called an equestrian statue – which is derived from the latin “eques” for Knight and “equus” for horse. A statue of a horse is called an “equine statue”.
Myth: Christopher Columbus discovered that the world was round
This is a very old myth that is surprisingly believed by millions of people. What we are told is that the Genoese Columbus’ peers doomed his trip to failure because they thought he would fall off the edge of the earth. Now – this was in the 1490s but man has known the earth was round since the idea was first put forth by Pythagorus 2,000 years before Spain even existed. Columbus did fail to reach his original destination, but in so doing he discovered the Americas. Not a bad end to a failed journey really. The round earth theory was so well established that the navigational methods at the time were all based on the fact that the earth was round.
Interesting Fact: At the age of 53, Columbus returned to Spain from the Americas and was promptly arrested with his two brothers for the atrocities he had committed. They remained in jail for six weeks before the King finally released them and restored their wealth and property. Columbus believed that his explorations to the New World would result in the beginning of the Last Judgement of man.
Myth: In ten years there will be no bananas left
There is some basis in truth to this myth (as is often the case) – there is a disease (fusarium wilt, or Panama disease) that is threatening bananas in some Asian countries and it is the Banana most Americans are familiar with (the Cavendish banana) but it is not likely to wipe out the entire world’s stock of bananas – or even the Cavendish banana as it has not infected some of the larger exporting farms. Furthermore, the cavendish is only one of roughly 300 types of bananas that are available and good for human consumption.
Interesting Fact: Bananas don’t grow on trees – the plant that produces the banana is actually a herb.
Myth: Newton devised his universal law of gravity when an apple fell on his head from the tree under which he was sitting
It is always exciting to think of a great discovery happening in the blink of an eye due to a coincidental event – we consider that if it were not for the right person being in the right place at the right time, man would have lost an incredibly significant piece of knowledge. For this reason people have clung to the idea that Newton devised his universal law of gravity because of an apple hitting him on the head. But in fact the first mention of an apple in relation to Newton came 60 years after his death: “Whilst he was musing in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity (which brought an apple from the tree to the ground) was not limited to a certain distance from the earth but that this power must extend much further.” (John Conduitt)
Interesting Fact: Though he is better known for his love of science, the Bible was Sir Isaac Newton’s greatest passion. He devoted more time to the study of Scripture than to science, and he said, “I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily.” He spent a great deal of time trying to discover hidden messages within the Bible. [Source]
Myth: Typhoid Mary, the most dangerous woman in America, killed hundreds (if not thousands) by infecting them with typhoid
The story is Typhoid Mary is relatively well known and it certainly is true that she (Mary Mallon) carried Typhoid fever without catching it herself. It is also true that she caused human deaths as a consequence. What is not true is the enormity of the carnage she left behind her. In fact, Mary (who worked as a cook) caused 30 – 53 (different sources cite different numbers) people to catch Typhoid, but only 3 of those people died. When it was first discovered that Mary was the cause of these people becoming ill, she was quarantined. This was for a short time only as it was felt that it was unfair to quarantine her as others in a similar situation were not. Mary was allowed to leave on the condition that she stop working as a cook. She accepted the condition but unable to get a job paying as well as cooking, she took on a false name and began working at a hospital as a cook. She caused 25 people there to become sick and one died. For this reason she was arrested and put in quarantine until she died 18 years later. She is pictured above in a bed during her first quarantine.
Interesting Fact: Typhoid is spread by the salmonella typhi pathogen which would normally be killed by the heat of cooking – but one of Mary’s specialty dishes (that was frequently requested by diners) was her peach icecream. Mary’s lack of hygiene when using the toilet enabled the bacteria to transfer from feces to her hands.
Myth: Einstein failed math at school
This is a surprisingly old error which everyone seems to believe. Its origins seem to be a 1935 article in the Ripley’s Believe it or not magazine in which the myth first appears in print under the heading “Greatest living mathematician failed in mathematics.” Many failing students probably take heart in the myth thinking that there may be hope for them if Einstein could flunk math and still become a genius, but unfortunately for them, Einstein showed genius from a very young age – including in the field of mathematics. When he was shown the article from the magazine, Einstein laughed and said: “I never failed in mathematics. Before I was fifteen I had mastered differential and integral calculus.”
Interesting Fact: In 1905, during his spare time, Einstein produced four papers that upended physics. The first showed that light could be conceived as particles as well as waves. The second proved the existence of atoms and molecules. The third, the special theory of relativity, said that there was no such thing as absolute time or space. And the fourth noted an equivalence between energy and mass described by the most famous equation in all of physics, E=mc^2. [Source]
Myth: The Titanic was the first ship to send out the SOS signal
Initially the Titanic sent out the CQD signal (standing for “All stations: distress”) but Britain had recently signed up to the new standard of SOS so one of the crew suggested that it be used as well: “Send SOS; it’s the new call, and besides, this may be your last chance to send it!” It certainly was new to British ships, but the standard had been in use for some years prior and there is even a newspaper article from 1909 which describes its use by an American ship, the Arapahoe.
Interesting Fact: Contrary to popular belief, SOS does not stand for anything. Some believe it means “save our souls” or “send out ships” but in fact, the signal was chosen because it was so simple to send that a person who was unfamiliar with radio equipment could send it in the case of an emergency (… / – - – / … SOS in Morse Code – is far easier than the previous distress signal of CQD: -.-. / – -.- / -..).
Myth: Margarine is 1 molecule away from plastic
Americans eat four times as much margarine as butter every year which seems surprising considering so many people believe this little myth about the chemical spread. While much of the negative stuff we hear about margarine is true, this particular myth is not. Margarine is made by heating vegetable oil and infusing it with hydrogen – in other words saturating it to a point that it remains hard at room temperature. It is then mixed with other ingredients to give a white lump that resembles fat. Yellow food coloring is added and voila – we have margarine. There is not one molecule of anything that you could add to margarine to turn it into plastic.
Interesting Fact: Margarine was invented because Emperor Louis Napoleon III of France offered a prize in 1869 for anyone that could come up with a cheap butter alternative for the army and the lower classes. Hippolyte Mège-Mouriés (a French chemist) won the prize with his oleomargarine. Governments around the world tried to stop people from using margarine by putting heavy taxes on it and banning its coloring. Believe it or not, it is still illegal to sell butter-colored margarine in Missouri [source] and it was illegal in Quebec until July 2008 [source].























May 24th, 2009 at 1:02 am
I drink the Mexican coke all the time. It really does taste different. It also comes in a cool glass bottle.
Great list =)
May 24th, 2009 at 1:06 am
All of these I knew were false, but still fun to read!
May 24th, 2009 at 1:10 am
Strictly from a chemical point of view, the difference between H2O and H2O2 is one atom, not one molecule.
As you rightly say, the myth is impossibly worded – plastics are macro-molecules in any case: really, really stupendously huge molecules, so saying ‘one molecule difference’ is completely meaningless.
I’m pretty sure some of the vegetable fats in margarine could be polymerised, though – meaning it effectively would be what we commonly call a ‘plastic’, although it is unlikely it would bear any resemblance to PVC or polythene.
May 24th, 2009 at 1:11 am
dam it, cell phones don’t give you brain cancer?! my plans for world domination are ruined
May 24th, 2009 at 1:14 am
i always thought that the horse statue myth was true
At least, with the statues ive seen the raising leg thing was correct
May 24th, 2009 at 1:14 am
What do equestrian statues with one foot on the ground, or no feet on the ground, mean?
Someone said “The only thing Columbus discovered was that he was lost”, but I forget who.
May 24th, 2009 at 1:14 am
It looks like Columbus is throwing up the first “westside” hand sign. Representin’ since 1492!!
May 24th, 2009 at 1:20 am
Interesting list, I believed a lot of these :b
May 24th, 2009 at 1:23 am
Astraya – an equestrian statue with no feet on the ground means you need new glasses
May 24th, 2009 at 1:28 am
Wow, love this list! :p it changed my views about those things..
May 24th, 2009 at 1:36 am
I have an old history book that my mother inherited when her father died. It lists a lot of neat things about Columbus that arent in any thing I have ever read about him before. I will try to dig it out of storage and make a list.
May 24th, 2009 at 1:43 am
Am I the only one who learned all these “common myths” for the first time by reading this list?
May 24th, 2009 at 1:50 am
jf: That’s a disappointment. I was hoping for something more deep and meaningful than that.
May 24th, 2009 at 2:10 am
astraya – sorry I couldn’t oblige
Calm_incense – at least you won’t get caught out next time one rears its head
May 24th, 2009 at 2:21 am
E=mc2 ? I think it is E=mc²…
Anyways, great list, until 5 minutes ago, I considered my self a learned person, but this list ruined my conceited view
May 24th, 2009 at 2:40 am
I thought it was E=MChammer
May 24th, 2009 at 3:03 am
Hi, discriminative posts there
through’s concerning the gripping word
May 24th, 2009 at 3:04 am
I have to agree with Yummy_Taquitos on the Mexican Glass Bottle Coke, it DOES taste different, and for some reason, seems to quench my thirst a lot more effectively than its aluminum-canned bretheren. Lol.
May 24th, 2009 at 3:19 am
mexican coke tastes incredible.. and same with the new pepsi “throwback” series. HFCS really is crap, i don’t care what this list says. i can tell you based on firsthand, personal experience that my body responds to it differently.
May 24th, 2009 at 3:25 am
#7 – Columbus was Italian – Born in Genoa, Italy – NOT Spanish. The Italians refused to finance his Voyage of Discovery; but the Spaniards were more than happy to – particularly Queen Isabella: Hence why he sailed from Spain, making his discovery of the Americas a Spanish and not an Italian one.
May 24th, 2009 at 3:30 am
SOS- save on surplus
May 24th, 2009 at 3:36 am
E=MC2(SQUARE)
May 24th, 2009 at 3:39 am
I always like these lists! I knew a few of these but haven’t heard of the coke one before. Nice list!
My mom belives in the horse statues one. I never believed it when she pointed it out as we passed one. Glad to know I was right. Number 4 grossed me out…not washing your hands…ewwwww!
May 24th, 2009 at 3:47 am
A few months ago I was diagnosed with a bladder cancer. Doctors said I was too young to have it. I do not smoke so we were quite taken aback by what could’ve possibly caused it.
I’m telling you this becasue of number 9. One of the many possibilities that I would keep thinking of was that I always carry my cell phone in my pants pocket and due to the proximity with my bladder a tumour may have developed!! Yes it’s far fetched but trying to answer the “why me” question always makes you think of all kinds of things. Thanks for confirming that my cell phone is not to blame. If you could only rule to the rest of the 999,999 possibilities I thought of…
Thankfully, the tumour was low grade and has been successfully removed… in case u were wondering.
May 24th, 2009 at 4:05 am
mild taste on the jalapeno list amigo! but IM sure it was the Chinese who discovered the Americas, at least one of the first before Columbus
May 24th, 2009 at 4:29 am
Tomo: congratulations on the tumor being removed. I think that quite often when a person is found to have cancer, the medical community look at the various fashionable causes and try to find one to pin on it. For that reason if a person gets lung cancer and they smoke, smoking is immediately blamed – and no further research is done when clearly a huge number of lung cancer sufferers never smoked. In some cases it gets so bad that the doctors will look for a smoker who lived with or near the non-smoking cancer patient in order to blame smoking. Maybe we are barking up the wrong tree…
May 24th, 2009 at 4:29 am
Margarine is almost unused here in Italy. It is believed to be real rubbish.
May 24th, 2009 at 4:31 am
Suskis: Then clearly the Italians have more sense than many other Westerners! Why would you eat a chemical replica of butter when you can eat butter? It is very bizarre.
May 24th, 2009 at 5:20 am
this list is very facsinating.apart from the cell phone causing brain cancar, i’ve also heard it causes low sperm count for men.
May 24th, 2009 at 5:22 am
“And the fourth noted an equivalence between energy and mass described by the most famous equation in all of physics, E=mc2.”
Actually it’s E=mc^2
May 24th, 2009 at 5:27 am
Amazing List Jamie. Didn’t know about most of this stuff
May 24th, 2009 at 5:32 am
You had better check your Morse code again.
May 24th, 2009 at 5:32 am
You are right about the high fructose corn syrup, its makeup is much the same as sucrose, but sucrose can be metabolized anywhere in the body. High fructose corn syrup can only be metabolized in the liver and after the liver metabolizes a certain amount of fructose, it starts to turn it into triglycerides(fats) and that is what makes it unhealthy.
May 24th, 2009 at 5:38 am
Our household uses margarine, due to budget and cholesterol constraints.
But I, have not been happy with the declining taste/water content of the margarines available, for the last many years.
For myself, and the education of the 5 yr old in my home, I make my own butter about every two months. We use heavy cream shaken in a jar, and are able to salt it to our taste.
It’s very rich but definitely waaay better tasting than the spreads we usually buy.
May 24th, 2009 at 5:42 am
The Japanese dont eat real butter either. Why – because it tastes too creamy. Thats right – ask them. Butter is also double the price.
However, any type of pastry or pastry-like substance in Japan has so much buttery tasting stuff it is nearly overpowering. Weird for a nation of lactose-intolerants.
BTW Hydrogen Peroxide only has an extra atom. The H2O2 is in fact a molecule all by itself.
Western countries drink wayyy too much soda (poor America having to suffer HFCS – Hersheys chocolate and Budweiser what a tragedy they cant use real sugar) and are wayyy too fat.
As for a banana free world in 10 years – surely youre making this up Frater.
May 24th, 2009 at 6:09 am
Good list, but it seems to re-state one myth: CQD doesn’t stand for ‘Seek you – danger’… See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CQD for debunking this fact!
May 24th, 2009 at 6:14 am
This is going to make me sound like a huge nerd but I was watching some documentary on the banana (I don’t know if the whole show was on the banana but the part I saw was, haha). The reason farmers and such worry about the possible extinction of the Cavendish banana is because every Cavendish is a clone of a sterile banana (similar in the way Naval Oranges are made). Since they are all genetically identical, one disease could essentially wipe out the entire Cavendish variety. They became the mass produced because they are resistant to the Panama disease that destroyed the Gros Michel (the previous banana of choice).
Double checked the documentary info and found this book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ago4AnAMADMC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=cavendish+banana+cloning&source=bl&ots=kQkbWL-zzb&sig=P-Ks8z-P2f2GZ3ObNiWbJvE8m9M&hl=en&ei=uEAZSp-THYTDtwfQ7PzuDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9
The google book says the threat to the Cavendish is the Black Sigatoka.
Everything you may have wanted to know about the Cavendish and then some.
May 24th, 2009 at 6:49 am
first
May 24th, 2009 at 6:49 am
Lol
its funny about the butter-margarine thing that people believed it. I mean, even if it was, changing a molecule will completely change the substance.
Great list!
May 24th, 2009 at 6:57 am
i bought margarine all day from you.
May 24th, 2009 at 7:11 am
SOS in morse code is … — …
May 24th, 2009 at 7:40 am
no Tom it is … – - – …
May 24th, 2009 at 7:47 am
SOS actually consists of three dots, three dashes, and three dots. I’m wondering if the spaces between the dashes are just not showing up correctly for Tom and JFrater.
May 24th, 2009 at 7:49 am
26.jfrater: A personal view on cancer..I was hit from behind on my bicycle and suffered head trauma resulting in blood clots in my ear drums. Months later these drained down left side of throat and I experienced pain and coughed up blood, my dentist noticed a ‘fistule’ at this site and after a quadroscopy, I was diagnosed with cancer at the same area. I know that the accident; due to trauma and shock, weakened my immune system enough to allow cell mutation. Only one Oncologist privately agreed with my view but off record! Most blamed my smoking! I was very healthy and strong and cycled many miles daily I am also a certified scuba diver and my lungs are healthy. The radiation treatments were quite devastating.
We used to have white margarine in plastic pouches with a red button you squeezed to colour it, personally I prefer organic butter!
Another great list!
May 24th, 2009 at 7:50 am
Wally I must have posted at the same time as you. Your post appeared the moment that I submitted my post. Oops!
May 24th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Margarine makes you tall. Hehe
May 24th, 2009 at 8:02 am
Would you mind providing evidence for some of these? A couple on this list are actually educationally shattering suggestions/debunkings, things that are not only believed, but taught in schools. If they are true, you really need to provide evidence for them to support your claim, because people will read this stuff and believe it, and if you’re wrong, then you’ve just contributed to the misinformation of the public (which Wikipedia and Fox News are wonderful at doing).
It’s not that I don’t think this is a good list, but when you’re making claims that shatter preconceived notions, you need to back it up with hard proof…
May 24th, 2009 at 8:22 am
SOS – MAYDAY ?
May 24th, 2009 at 8:22 am
Hey SMD, mind PROVIDING EVIDENCE to your claim by citing which ones you think are shattering suggestions and why, before you blast an intriguing list?
May 24th, 2009 at 8:28 am
I agree about the taste of coke in other countries. It often tastes different and to me better. I have also found the same thing about fast food places in other countries. It seems that mcdonalds and places like that often taste better than they do in America. I think it’s because they tend to use different suppliers for their food than they do in the States.
About the Equestrian myth, although Longstreet wasn’t wounded during Gettysburg, he was wounded earlier in his career in the Mexican-American War and later on in the Civil War during the Battle of the Wilderness. Could that be the reason for his horse having one foot off the ground? Granting that the statue could only represent Gettysburg.
May 24th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Great list, but even better comments!
7. joe mama
“It looks like Columbus is throwing up the first “westside” hand sign. Representin’ since 1492!!”
F#ck, that made me laugh!
May 24th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Great list Jamie.
It’s not the high fructose corn syrup that’s making us fat – it’s the gallons and gallons of soda we drink every year. (although Canadian coke is way better than the US variety – it’s not as thick and cloying) I haven’t even touched on the ruination that soda performs on our teeth. Ask the dentist; the acid and sugar combo is a recipe for cavities. I don’t buy it, don’t keep it in the fridge – we have milk and juice and water. Out of the tap btw.
May 24th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Over here in Texas it is quite common to find soda bottled south of the boarder. There is even a good bit bottled in the state with cane sugar. The difference is subtle but distinct between the cane sugar stuff and the corn syrup stuff. Cane sugar has a more crisp taste that is very clean. The corn syrup lingers and has a slightly oily texture that hangs around for a couple minutes. The food gurus like to say that the flavors are ‘brighter’ with the sugar sodas. While I can taste the difference on the first sip, my family is full of so called ’super-tasters’ which is usually more trouble than it is worth.
Funny thing about butter is how many people think it is somehow bad for you. It’s an all natural product that humans have loved pretty much for as long as milk has been available. Really, so long as people go for their foods in moderation almost nothing is really bad for you. Everything in moderation, including moderation itself.
35. Wally: There is actually very little evidence of lactose intolerance in Asians. It’s an old assertion that has never been really studied and proven. I have an Asian friend who gets really annoyed about it since about everyone she knows loves cheese and ice cream back in Singapore.
May 24th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Falsehoodified guns yo. Never can tell, like when a man says he’s tight but he aint, whatcha gonna do yo?
May 24th, 2009 at 10:12 am
usually don’t post, but with regards to the high fructose corn syrup your wrong. It’s true that the body breaks down glucose/fructose to the same compounds, the differences is that the breakdown of fructose doesn’t lead to satiety signals, i.e. that fructose doesn’t fill you up. This leads to an increased caloric intake with less satisfaction and by this it can cause an increase in obesity.
May 24th, 2009 at 10:17 am
I can definitely tell the difference between HFCS and pure sugar; HFCS always leaves an certain aftertaste in my mouth that I can’t say I care for. Initially, you can’t taste the difference, but the aftertaste gives it away.
May 24th, 2009 at 10:20 am
#10 is incorrect.
(Yeah, I know! Can you believe it?!)
Statement that makes it incorrect:
“Nutritionally speaking, the two are virtually identical.”
Rather than spelling out here why HFCS causes rapid insulin resistance and Metabolic Syndrome, it’s easier to tell you and your readers to search for “HFCS PGC-1b”. You can’t be blamed, really. This is a relatively recent finding and the Corn Refiners Association has hired PR firms to ensure that the facts are pitched as “myth.”
May 24th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Good day! Another debunking list eh? – some nice ones there. You got me wondering just how much better Cola is in Mexico; and I don’t even drink it. I used to drink vast amounts of fruit juice instead of soda(pop) or hot beverages until I had a reaction. Appearantly, the acid (or is it alkali?) in the juice had imbalanced my body’s natural PH level. I wonder if juice is as bad for the teeth as other sugars? Now I just drink water from the tap (and it’s really good water here where I live – no dumb attempts to ruin it with flouride).
I also read all the stuff about margarine and believed it. There are lots of nasty facts about that product – it’s a bit like the ‘if you saw how they make sausages, you’d never eat em’ thing. I one read that because they pour marg into plastic tubs while it’s still hot, that it absorbes some plastic residues from them. Sounds plausable to me….?
As far as cell phone side effects go – I believe the jury is still out on that one. We’ve only had the things since the 80’s – so any long term effects may not have shown up yet. Perhaps it’s also got a lot to do with the ‘increasing risk’ factor; i.e. the risk depends on the exposure. Having said that, the human brain as I see it is a bio-electro-chemical tool. Most of us know how to imbalance it with chemicals; caffine, nicotine, alcohol, THC. The brain also reacts to resonant electro frequencies; i.e. sound waves can make the brain calmer or more excited (we dance) – but what about other types of waves on the electromagnetic spectrum? Cell phones don’t use harmless radio waves, they use microwaves, and nobody knows what a 60 year exposure to these is gonna be like.
May 24th, 2009 at 10:29 am
@ 58
exactly, you are absolutely 100 % correct
May 24th, 2009 at 10:34 am
# 34 deeeziner makeing your own butter brings back fond memories of my childhood.
# 34 deeeziner -
Christmas school holidays I was always sent to my grandparents farm, and I can recall after the cows were milked my grandmother made us shake these ” canfruit ” bottles that was filled with milk and cream.
As kids we used to fight over the butter milk that was left.
That was way back in the early 1960s it was a good era a lot different than todays lifestyle.
May 24th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Very interesting list, JFrater. A couple of side notes about Coke. I grew up in the 50’s and early 60’s, and people did not drink soda like they do today. There were few, if any, convenience stores or fast food places in many areas. So, people did not buy 64 oz. drinks. Soda was a rare treat in my family, and we usually only got it in gas stations on long car trips.
As far as the coke made in Mexico: they also make coke in the US with sugar for the Jewish Passover. Jews cannot eat any foods that have any leavening in them or any leavening agents during Passover. That includes corn. Many non Jew purchase this product prior to Passover and stock up.
May 24th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
i thought of another fact that is often said by my mother, but im not sure if its true. if you’re taking a shower while there’s a rainstorm going on, then you have the chance of being eletrocuted. i dont think its true, but i’ve been wrong before.
May 24th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
#10 is absolutely true. Any caloric intake can make you fat if you don’t exercise. America drinks a mind-boggling amount of soda, so there’s no way it can’t be adding to our obesity. However, it’s not the sole cause…
#6 has some truth to it. It’s possible that the cavendish banana could become extinct. There are several articles on this.
May 24th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Perhaps HFCS isn’t the only culprit in causing the rising obesity of the last twenty years, but considering its ubiquity in all sorts of products there is a good chance of it.
While the composition of sugar and HFCS may seem similar there is a significant difference in the way the body digests these compounds. In order to digest sugar the body must manufacture an enzyme called sucrase. When the body makes too much of this substance as a result of consuming too much sugar you get a sort of sick feeling. In other words the body self regulates the intake of sugar.
On the other hand sucrase is not needed to digest HFCS, so we don’t have a kill switch on sweets made with HFCS.
I know I’ve probably oversimplified and butchered the science, but the information is easily available.
Furthermore as a result of reading up on things like HFCS and margarine I’ve pretty much stopped eating anything out of a box or a carton unless I’m unable to make it myself. Funny how real food tastes better than the chemicals the food companies sell.
May 24th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
“Believe it or not, it is still illegal to sell butter-colored margarine in Missouri…”
Well then they’re breaking the law, because I buy it all the time here.
I knew most of these but I didn’t know that!
As far as the Mexican coke, it DOES taste better. It has more zip and I think also tastes better because it’s in glass bottles.
May 24th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
HERES ANOTHER INTERESTING FACT!!
There is actual no ACURATE depiction of what Christopher Columbus ever looked like… He never sat down to take a portrait!!
May 24th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
i’d never heard the equestrian statue myth. perhaps because in all chicagoland i think we have less than 5 of these statues.
i will throw my vote in with all the people saying cane sugar soda tastes much better, it does -more vibrant and clean in the mouth. i hardly ever drink pop, but was tempted to search out some passover coke.
it’s quite true that one disease could wipeout all cavendish bananas, but a new banana variety would simply take it’s place in large scale cultivation.
did you know that a similar thing happens with commercial tulips? not from disease, but from the way they are propagated. to get identical tulips to a certain strain you plant the little bulblet “offsets” it’s made, not its seeds. but with enough generations of doing so, the bulblets become small, lose vigor, and eventually just aren’t produced anymore. to quote michael pollan’s book the botany of desire “tulips are mortal.” breeders are currently looking for the next big commercial “black” tulip, as the current “queen of the night” strain is close to dying out.
if we would practice diversified agriculture, instead of relying on mass culture of clones -like the cavendish and navel orange- our global food supply would have greater resistance to disease.
May 24th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Mexican Coke and Kosher Coke. Yep – they do taste better, much better, in spite how much HFCS is supposed to taste like sugar.
May 24th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
to all the people saying that high-fructose corn syrup has made the US fatter-
did you ever think that the huge increase in sedentary behaviors over the past 30 years could be the culprit, regardless of diet?
prior to 1980, significantly more children were playing outside than sitting inside (no internet or high tech-video games, no 800 channel direct TV, etc. no cell phones for the tween set -i don’t think “tween” was even a recognized market yet). and more adults were active too. if you’re typing or reading this right now it means you’re not out jogging, hiking, or playing softball, etc.
it’s completely possible that the widespread use of HFCS was adopted at the same time as a life-style shift, and a rise in obesity. then people who’d never been taught that correlation is not causation seized upon the idea of HFCS being the cause, but forgot about all the other variables in the equation.
only by looking at all the variables and designing appropriate experiments can we figure out what’s really going on.
May 24th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Come on a little more proof that cell phones don’t cause cancer would be nice. Do you expect me to just take your word for it. Give me a study or two two supplement your claims. Before you go around saying that these claims not facts are 100% wrong.
May 24th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Great list, never heard of 9, 6 or 1, but always believed the other 7. I’m either dumb, gullible, too lazy to research anything, or most likely, all 3.
Oh and to 16. Tragik LMAO at your comment
May 24th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
lol many people telling about the formua e=mc2
May 24th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
lostatsea: thanks for that comment – I am glad you are fully recovered now! I am sure that your situation is not uncommon at all.
May 24th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Already knew most of these, but then snopes is my favourite boredom killer.
My sis-in-law to be and I are locked in a fierce battle over the margerine myth. She’s horrified that I would consider buying it (I don’t, but that’s for different reasons) and I’m tired of her shoving it down everyone’s throat.
May 24th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
The First “Myth” is partially true!
I found out that I am allergic to corn, and by default, high fructose corn syrup, after being very sick for over a year.
My allergist (a specialist MD), told me “High Fructose Corn Syrup is toxic to every person on the planet”. Allergies, and toxicity makes to body store fat (for several reasons, some unknown). Most people will find, when they cut out something like H F C S, they will lose weight rapidly, despite no reduction on calories.
I lost 40 pounds in 3 months.
May 24th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
70. Epidemiological studies take a long time and require a lot of data – cellphones haven’t been around long enough yet for definitive answers.
On an unrelated note – Banana ‘Trees’ are considered by some people to walk as over time the rhizome will move.
May 24th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
‘Myth: high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is making us fat’
This really needs to be rechecked. I’m surprised it got past the fact checking process.
I understand that the author is saying that HFCS is basically the same as white refined sugar, but that doesn’t suddenly stop massive amounts of white refined sugar from making people fat.
There’s this new website called Google, you should check it out. Saying ‘HFCS is basically like white refined sugar so it refutes that it makes you fat’ is kinda like saying ‘yeah, well it’s kerosene, not gasoline, so that house isn’t on fire, really’.
A little dity on white refined sugar: http://naturalmedicine.suite101.com/article.cfm/sugars__the_bad
And this other new website you should check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar
White refined sugar is pretty bad for you in any type of abundance. Thus, by the author’s own words, HFCS- ‘High Fructose’- where white refined is easily a causal factor in many cases of diabetes and obesity, the HFCS is just as bad- if not worse due to the high content.
If the authr wanted to say, HFCS is similiar in content to white refined sugar, hey, no argument. But the ‘myth’ that HFCS is bad for you- is not a myth.
May 24th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
64. boofclassV: “Perhaps HFCS isn’t the only culprit in causing the rising obesity of the last twenty years, but considering its ubiquity in all sorts of products there is a good chance of it.”
There is an obesity crisis in NZ too and HFCS isn’t used in much here – definitely not in Soda which still uses sugar. The reason that Americans use HFCS instead of sugar is because of a laws passed in 1982 (thanks to lobbying from Archer Daniels Midland) to protect the domestic sugar industry – which consequently caused imported sugar to be prohibitively expensive. If the laws were revoked, companies like Coca Cola could use sugar like they do everywhere else. Here is a very interesting article on that at the Mises institute.
Here is what the Cato institute said on the same issue:
May 24th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Mabel: the anti-margarine law is one that is ignored – the article I linked to in the list is about a politician calling for the law to be removed as it is ignored anyway
May 24th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
pasttime (70): If you click the link attached to the cellphone item on the list, it refers to a large number of studies and it has 25 papers and studies listed as references.
May 24th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
There are so many yummy bananas in Brasil. I miss them.
May 24th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Thanks for the info, good job.
May 24th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Mr.Graves: Sugar is not bad for you – nor is HFCS – nor is alcohol, salt, fat, etc. Everything in moderation. Over-consumption of most things is bad.
May 24th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Fructose, whether from HFCS or cane sugar, *does* make you fat – primary metabolic path is straight to fat. The secondary paths that go to glucose or glucose-related products are
May 24th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
83. jfrater : Correction Jamie, alcohol *is* bad, no matter what. If you drink in moderation you probably won’t notice any of the negative effects, but they’re still there.
May 24th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Mark: I don’t agree that alcohol is bad for you regardless of quantity. There are many studies that indicate that a moderate amount of red wine is good for you.
May 24th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
85. Mark : so you are saying that the alcohol used in hospital wards as an anti-bacterial is bad?
I think you might mean that (recreationally) ingesting alcohol is bad for humans.
May 24th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
86. jfrater : Yeah, due to antioxidants, not due to the ethanol.
87. DrFrigmundPseud : I’m pretty sure given the context that what I was saying was clear to most people, do you get a kick out of splitting hairs?
May 24th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
On Einstein:
“The second proved the existence of atoms and molecules.”
Umm…
pretty sure that this is B.S.
May 24th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
its ferdinand magellan that discovered the earth was round
May 24th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
90. genaroian_13 -
uhm, no. while Magellan’s voyage was awesome and makes a spectacular read in Over the Edge of the World, learned people knew the earth was round for 1000’s of years beforehand.
May 24th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
90. genaroian_13 -
the knowledge of a spherical earth goes back to a least the 6 century BCE in both greek and indian knowledge. maybe europe experienced a “great forgetting” in the dark ages -or maybe not- but either way, educated persons knew our earth was round….
May 24th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
A few personal notes about the list (very interesting, by the way Jamie, as you usually are with your lists), I am one of the few who are allergic to High Fructose Corn Syrup. Makes reading labels mandatory.
When I spent that month in Mexico, the Coke was one of the pleasures we indulged in. Because most of the time we were in non-tourist areas, the food was not prepared with out digestive tracts in mind, so we lived on bread, certain fruits, tequila, beer, and coke. Try that diet for a month!
I cannot stand the taste of margarine. It has to be butter or nothing. My husband can eat the cheapest margarine and not tell the difference. I don’t get it, but there you go. Different tastes for different people.
May 24th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
there is a difference between coke and mexicoke [[what we call the glass bottled Mexican coke.. and i tend to get mexicoke more often if i have the chance the taste is mainly in the aftertaste the Mexican one has a better one
May 24th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
segue: like you I simply can not stomach margarine – it is one of the most disgusting tasting things imaginable!
May 24th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
#4 Typhoid Mary…
Interesting Fact: … Mary’s lack of hygiene when using the toilet enabled the bacteria to transfer from feces to her hands.
Hey thanks for this “interesting” fact. I’m always looking for a good visual reference to really put some zing into my upchucking.
Oh, and by the way, I used to like Peach Ice Cream but alas it will now always sadly be attached to Typhoid Mary and her poop hands.
May 25th, 2009 at 12:02 am
89. Humbug! : Um… Pretty sure it’s called Brownian Motion and maybe you should spend some time reading about it…
May 25th, 2009 at 12:05 am
jfrater and segue my dear, et al.
-what about the “margarine” spread of the name “smart balance-light”?
first off, i have nothing against real butter (it can be so delicious!), but if i must choose a “spread” instead (for any reason) what is wrong with “smart balance light”? 50 calories/TBSP, non-hydrogenated/tans-fat free and contains some omega 6 & 3 acids and still tastes pretty good!
real butter is still yumm, and i do not hate it at all, but some new “margarines” can be good too!
May 25th, 2009 at 12:11 am
omggg mexican coca cola is the best.
def. difference in taste.
May 25th, 2009 at 1:04 am
I always heard that High Fructose Corn Syrup and Sugar both had the same effect for making you fat, but HFCS was engineered so your you would not feel as if you had enough as with real sugar. Therefore you just keep consuming the stuff with the HFCS where if you had real sugar you would feel full.
May 25th, 2009 at 1:50 am
After reading most of the comments I really want to try Mexican coke! I’m drinking Irish coke right now which according to the label has sugar and not HFCS so maybe they’re similar. I’ve drank coke from lots of different countries (UK, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, France, Spain, South Korea, Philippines) and I have to say that they do taste different, to me at least.
How can anyone eat margarine? I used it in home ec class years ago but do people actually put it on sandwiches etc? Blehhh! Real butter is the only way to go.
May 25th, 2009 at 3:06 am
For everyone that hates margarine: I can’t believe it’s not butter.
May 25th, 2009 at 3:41 am
96. The_Snowdog
#4 Typhoid Mary…
Interesting Fact: … Mary’s lack of hygiene when using the toilet enabled the bacteria to transfer from feces to her hands.
You should be thankful for the inclusion of this interesting fact to the list.
The very grossness of the mental picture may help people remember the true reasoning for our Mom’s constant plea to “WASH YOUR HANDS!!” before leaving the restroom.
And to all of you folks out there handling my food…Please Wise-up. I’ll do the same for you.
May 25th, 2009 at 6:19 am
69. lo – You’re right; people don’t move around as much as they used to. We used to play outside as kids (in the dirt! with germs! builds immunity! uphill! both ways!) and now kids just sit in front of the computer all the time.
May 25th, 2009 at 6:20 am
79. jfrater – Butter tastes better anyway.
May 25th, 2009 at 8:29 am
@Brycen
Really? I tried a HFCS coke when I was in Florida with my family, and after having one I couldn’t even think of having another. Cane sugar ones in Canada though on the otherhand, I could drink two.
May 25th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Jaime: I´m wondering if my post regarding my husband´s belief in myth 9 had anything to do with this list? I think I´ll have to show him! Although, I´m sure he´s going to make the charge the darn thing in the bathroom anyway…
Anyway, Coke in the US really does taste different… I dont know how to describe the difference but I think it is mor crisp. And if you can find it in a glass bottle… oh my God! Delish!
Oh, and I still buy margerine in my house (though I´m trying not to). My mom used to buy it when I was a kid and now I´m used to the taste! My husband hates it though…
May 25th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Ahh, just to correct myself – once again – I stated that mobile cell phones use microwaves – in fact they use RF waves (which is the oe next to microwaves on the spectrum). I could have sworn it on owth; but I was inaccurate.
Having read the sources from item #9, and finding my own, such as: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone-radiation2.htm , most studies (including the ones sited) still say things like “scientists are still unsure about whether prolonged exposure could create problems.”
Time’ll tell….
May 25th, 2009 at 9:07 am
high fructose corn syrup is dangerous because they put it everything, even food that was not made with sugar a couple years ago and its ridiculous.if they want to put it in soda then ok but someone please explain why lunch meat needs sugar. then they put it in fruit juice,its already got sugar in it why does it need even more.
May 25th, 2009 at 10:21 am
My family calls my younger brother Typhoid Mary. He gave my sister pneumonia, and then while she was home from university recovering, he gave her and the rest of the family the chicken pox. More recently, we’re suspicious of him giving my mom and my sister swine flu
May 25th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
10 – I just tried the new ‘throwback’ Mt. Dew and Pepsi… and I do indeed taste a difference… and a good one at that. Also, it’s not really true that just HFCS is making us fat, processed sugars and the so called ‘complex carbohydrates’ combined with a lack of activity are doing that. HFCS and refined cane sugar are both bad for you.
9 – I watched a video online a while back where two Russian guys cooked an egg using two cell phones set with the antennae several inches apart and the egg between them. That, combined with what is, in my opinion, an exorbitant cost, makes me completely unwilling to own or use one now.
6 – Actually, the banana most commonly used is bred to have no seeds. Over time, the plants that produce them will die, and then we will have no bananas. Natural bananas are full of somewhat large seeds, and I mean full of them. To eat it, you would have to peel the fruit, and pick out the seeds with your fingers, and then you might get one-third of the flesh you get from an average banana from the typical store.
1 – This one I’m not one hundred percent certain on, but I recall it being stated that margarine was so similar to some plastic at the chemical level, that the addition of a single molecule would make it plastic.
I’m no chemist, but I would love to see the proofs for either side of this one.
May 25th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Polyolefin is a well known plastic fibre produced from vegetable oils – basically a polymerised version of margarine.
May 25th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
If you live in the U.S. and want to taste Coke and other sodas that have cane sugar, you are usually able to find them around Passover in most medium-to-large cities. Coke is kosher anyway, but as the dietary rules regarding Passover are stricter, cane sugar is used as a kosher sweetener (I’m not positive about the rules, but I think that is correct). My mom tried what we call “Passover Coke” one year and went crazy for it, so now we always buy a few bottles and give them as a gift for Mother’s Day. I think you can also buy bottles of it on eBay or other places online. It definitely tastes good, but I’m such a Diet Coke addict, I don’t really prefer regular Coke or cane sugar Coke.
May 25th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Another great list. I do appreciate it when people take the time to do all this wonderful research.
Regarding the world being flat. We have the novelist ‘Washington Irving’ to thank for this common misconception. Whilst writing a biography of Columbus he fretted that the story was dull and wanted to spice it up a bit. So, he wrote an account of how Columbus met with church officials and they stated the world was round and he said ‘Oh no it isn’t’ and so on and so forth. Actually, the Spanish church were wholly (or ‘holy’) supportive of his trip.
Regarding Coke tasting different. I am a diet coke drinking and I was wondering if there’s any truth to the rumour that it gives you cancer. One thing that tastes different is McDonalds. Most of the time it tastes like cardboard stolen from a homeless person but I had one in China (caught between the devil and the deep blue sea with cuisine there) and it was great, thick tasty burgers and fresh strawberries on the sundae. What’s going on?
May 25th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
#19 joeseppi
I enjoy the Mountain Dew Throwback also I think it tastes much better. More like when I first became addicted to it about uumm 20 years ago LOL.
Also, when checking out and comparing the nutrition info on the cans, the throwback is lower in sugars, sodium, and carbs. at least on the Mountain dew it is.
May 26th, 2009 at 12:35 am
About no.9
Normal exposure to mobile phone radiation cannot cause headaches or dizziness, nor can it cause brain cancers, neurological effects or reproductive effects.Or so the most recent studies show.
However the studies say Normal Exposure. The problem is that many people today use these damn things way too much. That might be a cause of cancer.
Anyway i talked this over with a physics professor that does research in the field and he said that long term exposure is pretty bad for one’s health.
There are way too many variables in this equation to come up with a concrete answer. I believe that cell phones do play a role in “obtaining” cancer.
But hey, i am not an expert on the matter.
May 26th, 2009 at 1:53 am
114.odd: Aspertane is even worse for your health!! HFCS and diabetes; Fructose is much more readily metabolized to fat in the liver than glucose, and in the process can lead to nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. NAFLD in turn leads to hepatic insulin resistance and type II diabetes.
Researchers showed that mice fed a high-fructose diet could be protected from insulin resistance if a gene known as transcriptional coactivator PPARg coactivator-1b (PGC-1b) was “knocked down” in the animals’ liver and fat tissue. PGC-1b controls the activity of several other genes, including one responsible for building fat in the liver. This suggests an important role for PGC-1b in the pathogenesis of fructose-induced insulin resistance.
Also must point out.. most corn grown in US is GMO which can cause corn allergies!
Additional Health Dangers of High Fructose Corn Syrup
As if all of that wasn’t bad enough, fructose also does not contain any enzymes, vitamins or minerals so it takes these micronutrients from your body while it assimilates itself for use.
Unbound fructose, found in large quantities in HFCS, can interfere with your heart’s use of minerals such as magnesium, copper and chromium.
Please note that this does not mean you should avoid whole fruit, however, as it contains natural fructose together with the enzymes, vitamins and minerals needed for your body to assimilate the fructose. Eating small amounts of whole fruit also does not provide a tremendous amount of fructose, and is not likely to be a problem for most people unless diabetes or obesity is an issue.
And lastly, adding insult to injury, HFCS is almost always made from genetically modified corn, which is fraught with its own well documented side effects and health concerns.
GMO corn will radically increase your risk of developing corn allergies. The problem with corn allergies are that once you have a corn allergy from GMO corn you will have an allergy to even healthy organic corn products.
EMFs are also harmful to health!!
May 26th, 2009 at 9:10 am
I’ve bought Mexican Coke before and it does taste different, as it’s slightly sweeter. I didn’t like it much at all. Pepsi is also making drinks with sugar and calling it Pepsi/Mtn. Dew Throwback, which isn’t bad. Jones soda is usually made with cane sugar, too, and for awhile they had a cola and lemon lime flavored drink.
May 26th, 2009 at 9:25 am
117. lostatsea: Aspartame is just as bad. I am allergic to all synthetic sugars. No diet or sugar-free stuff for me. It swells up my tongue and throat. VERY nasty stuff and for all the reasons you mentioned.
May 26th, 2009 at 9:46 am
While I do not believe HFCS is bad for you it upsets me that it put in foods that I feel it should not be in, Applesauce for example.
And between Mountain Dew with real sugar and HFCS, it’s less sweet when made with sugar
May 26th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Coke (and other beverages) made with cane sugar does indeed taste different from Coke made with high fructose corn syrup. Personally, I prefer the taste of the cane sugar.
The main reason hfcs is used is because it’s cheaper and easier to produce.
May 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am
120.&121. Corn syrup is an industrial product
that just happens to use corn as it
primary ingredient.
Recently revealed studies which the
FDA apparently has been sitting on
until now reveal that in two different
studies 1/3 of tested foods with corn
syrup found traces of mercury.
Chalk up another one for Corporate
America.
If you have kids and are not paying
attention, they are eating TONS of
this stuff. It did not exist until the
1970s.
Details:
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/546.html
May 26th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Jamie # 26 – I agree. Personally, I’d blame the chemical additives in the tobacco and the papers, including the pesticides used.
May 26th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
UPDATE: For all of you who are in areas where they’re test-marketing the Pepsi/Mt. Dew Throwback; they’re only doing it through Mid-June. HOWEVER! The customer relations Rep. I spoke with said if they get enough support for it, they will likely bring it back permanently.
The number to call is: 18004332652
Jaimie – I’m not sure if this post is OK with you, though I hope it is. The folks at PepsiCo seemed quite happy to hear from both me and my fiance; so hopefully you don’t mind me putting this out there for your readers.
May 26th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Mercury in corn syrup and in vaccines causing Alzheimers, Autism, high chlorestral etc. Why are we being poisoned? Flouride a waste product of aluminum processing..Neuron degeneration may be a form of mind control or maybe I’m being paranoid??
May 26th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Most of the “facts” on these lists are science-related… Being a science person, I always know them all already. Someone should make a list with more random facts like the horse statue thing.
May 26th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
125. lostatsea – I hate people like you. The mercury that was once used in vaccines (but HAS NOT been used for 10 years) was NOT toxic to humans. Furthermore, mercury is NOT in corn syrup and has NOTHING to do with cholesterol levels.
I really hate people like you.
Seriously, try doing your own research before making an ass of yourself.
May 26th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
125 – I think you are seriously paranoid lostatsea
Corey – calm down! An ignorant opinion is not meant to personally offend you!
May 26th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
127.Corey: So glad to have your hatred! You must be a Christian!! Mercury Not TOXIC?? You mean science is wrong? Neural networks are not damaged by mercury?? Flouride is not a waste product of aluminum smelting?? 9,110 results on google for mercury poison in high frutose corn syrup. I have done MY research..or perhaps you are a corn producer lobbyist!! Genetic modified of course..with all the future health and biodiversity problems of that profit maker.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/326.html
Seems a lot of Christians have problems with science, ID and evolution springs to mind.
Why has the dental system been removing old mercury amalgum fillings? Even inhaling mercury vapours are poisonous.
May 26th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Flouride, in Britain, was and is added to the water supply to strengthen teeth – it is not there as some sort of mind control.
May 26th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
128.cym: You betcha!! I’m paranoid and proud of it!! Too many people asleep at the wheel. Laws passed which favour banks, corporations and military. Watching as freedoms are eroded in a manufactured war on terror. Love me or hate me wont stop me for trying to educate others. The UK has the most cameras spying on its citizens..(George Orwell 1984) seems rather tame now. The more I learn the more ignorant I become. Thank you for the compliment!
May 26th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Sir, it was not meant as a compliment. It is one thing to be wary of your so called “betters” (and with the current scandals at Whitehall I use that term scathingly) but another to think everyone is conspiring against you.
I do not hate you. That would be foolish. I know little to nothing about you.
I would recommend you read state of fear by Michael Crichton. It is an excellent novel that deals with some interesting issues, without seeming massively paranoid, like you seem to be.
May 26th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Have you read 1984? I ask as many people say that book seems tame now who have never read it. We do not get together once a day for a ten minute hate of a political leader. We still have democracy, regardless of what you think we can still change our government at the next election – they cannot stay in power indefinitely. Do we have constant video and audio survellence in our homes? No. Are we cut into politcal castes? No. Is our media history changed depending on who we are at war with? A little, but the history is not changed only public opinion. Are we arrested and executed for having extra marital affairs, or for consorting with political groups not of our leaders’ ilk? No.
Are our governments extreme facsists? NO.
You have a rather skewed perception of reality if you think our society is worse than the one described by Orwell.
May 26th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
130.cym: Flouride is an industrial waste product and was being dumped in rivers before they were cited for pollution they came up with a study to tout the benefits to teeth. It is still a poison, as in flouride poisoning..check google 266,000 links to harmful effects of flouridated water.
http://www.Mercola.com and 265,999 other sites. I do research have you? So many things which were once thought safe are now revealed to be highly dangerous to health, eg. asbestos or doctors touting cigarettes. I don’t trust GM foods for this very reason, I care about my health so I try to avoid GM products which is hard to do as no law has been enacted to show the content and allow shoppers to choose.
May 26th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
133.cym: Gays kicked out of the US military after risking life and limb in Iraq. History has been changed or expunged.
Freedoms have been restricted and more surveilance is blatantly obvious. We are on a slippery slope and martial law is not far behind or indefinate detention as Obama has stated.
No charges…no evidence…no crime – and
indefinite detention.
Obama proposes making the ultimate
assault on civil liberties as American
as apple pie.
Details:
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/630.html
May 26th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
“I do research have you?”
Deary me it seems you havent been here as long as me. Most regs here know I am a research scientist. I am insulted that you say I don’t do my research.
Google as a research tool? Don’t make me laugh. I use proper reseach tools such as Metalib and Pubmed, I trawl through acredited peer review journals – not just sites with hits on google.
Yes fluoride is a poison – do you know how it poisons you? It gets into your musculoskeletal system replacing calcium as fluorine (not ride) is the most electronegative element on the periodic table. However in its -ide form it is not as toxic and IS added to British american, australian and a number of other water systems for tooth strengthening, as it is added to almost every commercial toothpaste. US levels of fluroide in the water are at about 0.7 to 1.2 mg/L. Toxicity, or the LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of a tested population) of fluoride poisoning is around 30mg per kilo of body mass. You would drown before ingesting this amount of fluoride through water supply. A recent medical paper entitled “A systematic review of the efficacy and safety of fluoridation.” by Dr C A Yeung found no problems with fluoridation
As for Obama. Quite frankly I don’t care about american politics. It has been interfering in other cultures and at least I know I live in a land with democracy. Kindly don’t tar our democracy as your own. If you don’t live here then you cannot comment on our freedoms. I do not feel any of our freedoms have been curtailed, and a number of controversial government proposals that would do that have been defeated in both the commons and the lords.
Britain has banned GM foods. Wrongly. But it has nonetheless under public pressure. Most people, and I am grouping you here sir, do not understand GM and are therefore scared of it.
May 26th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
133.cym: Bush family nazi(fascist) history..570,000 links..American banks and corporations bankrolled Hitler to profit from WAR! WWII created for profit, who profited from WWII? 118,000 links.. I guess all these are lies?
May 26th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
(but obviously that Doctor is part of a global industrial military conspiracy to brainwash us through fluoride by giving us all alzheimers when we are 65 correct?)
The date of publication was 2008 btw
May 26th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Again, you are taking american politics and thinking that is the same for the entire western world. It isnt.
And as to links? The British Royal Family is German! That made WWI and II rather difficult for them!
And just because you get a large number of links doesnt mean the information is valid. You do not know what context your search criteria come up under. Until you use a respectable search method, dont think numbers of hits on google is going to impress me. My professors would laugh you out of a room if you handed in work with a bibliography with “it got 250000 hits on google”
Who profited from WWII? America did. The rest of Europe have known that for decades. Don’t spout this thinking it is news to me. America only gets involved in military activity if it has something to gain.
May 26th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
136.cym: Yes I agree with the LETHAL dose but as we do not have the results from long term exposure how can one state with certainty that there is no detrimental health effects?
GM seeds and roundup are creating resistance and mutations in nature. Thousands of Indian farmers comitting suicide after GM crops failed and the money they borrowed to buy these wonder seeds was lost. Suicide genes spliced into seeds so corporate profits remain high at peoples expense, ruining thousands of years of agriculture where seed was kept for the next years crop. Monsanto holding patents on seeds? I have been warned by dentists about flouride so who is right?
You did state in its -ide form it is not AS toxic so you agree it has toxicity. Britain did enter Iraq on specious grounds..real democratic.. Canada decided there was no good reason to invade a sovereign state..rightly so as it turned out.
May 26th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
….what do you mean we do not have data for long term exposure? Municipal water supplies in america in the 1940s. That is nearly 70 years for long term detrimental effects to come to light. The review I read from Pubmed found no detrimental effects.
Kindly do not put all this at britain and americas door. Over 30 countries were involved in the invasion and/or occupation of Iraq.
Suicide genes? Please show me peer reviewed data backing this statement up.
“GM seeds and roundup are creating resistance and mutations in nature.”
Evidence please. Peer reviewed if possible.
“You did state in its -ide form it is not AS toxic so you agree it has toxicity”
Yes. Chocolate is poisonous in high enough quantities. Water can kill you in large quantities. The LD50 is the measure of how worried we should be about small amounts of a substance. If you had any biochemistry training we could communicate, but you are too far behind the academic curve for you to debate this effectively with me. Your instant thought to mistrust any government approved data is also hindering you in this argument. Being paranoid is not a good quality for reasonable debate, as everything I say you will merely say is part of the conspiracy.
I apologise if that sounds elitist, but it is true.
May 26th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
139.cym: House of Hanover..it was why they changed to Windsor. Not trying to educate you.. this list is read by many Americans and when America sneezes we in Canada catch a cold! Although this Wall street mess has given the world the flue! Two British comedians in 2007 sum it up nicely.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/187.html
Humour can help explain so much. enjoy
May 26th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
That should read “Municipal water supplies in america in the 1940s were fluoridated”
May 26th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Hanover? What? The Windsors are a part of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. That in itself is a minor branch of Wettin. King George V renounced all claims to the German Throne by royal proclamation in 1917.
Where are you getting Hanover?
As wittly said when the name changed to Windsor, German Emperor Wilhelm II remarked jokingly that he planned to see Shakespeare’s play The Merry Wives of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
May 26th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
141.cym: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3082
Terminator seeds. The FDA are influenced by the corporate lobby. Afghanistan a result of British Imperialism as is the current crisis in Pakistan a result of drawing lines on maps after the British left India. 9/11 America’s war on terror and the blatant lies from the NIST and FEMA on how the buildings collapsed.. http://www.AE911Truth.com
May 26th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
144.cym: British royal house of German origin, descended from George Louis, elector of Hanover, who succeeded to the British crown, as George I, in 1714. The dynasty provided six monarchs: George I (reigned 1714–27), George II (reigned 1727–60), George III (reigned 1760–1820), George IV (reigned 1820–30), William IV (reigned 1830–37), and Victoria (reigned 1837–1901). It was succeeded by the house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, which was renamed in 1917 the house of Windsor. That is how! You stand corrected sir!
May 26th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
No I do not. You contradicted yourself and proved my point. Namely: “It was succeeded by the house of Saxe-Coburg-Goth”
Therefore, at the time of the change to the name of Windsor, the house of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha was on the throne, NOT the house of Hanover.
Nice enthusiasm, but you have just made yourself look daft.
May 26th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
141.cym: ´Back at the Mellon Institute, ALCOA’s Pittsburgh industrial research lab, this news was galvanic. There, biochemist Gerald J. Cox immediately fluoridated some lab rats in a study and concluded that fluoride reduced cavities and that: “The case should be regarded as proved.” In a historic moment in 1939, the first public proposal that the U.S. should fluoridate its water supplies was made not by a doctor, or dentist, but by Cox, an industry scientist working for a company threatened by fluoride damage claims and burdened by the odious expense of disposing of tons of toxic industrial waste. Cox began touring the country, stumping for fluoridation.(10) Dean would go on to carve out a nice career for himself as the “father” of public water fluoridation. He became the first dental scientist at the National Institute of Health, advancing to director of the dental research section in 1945. After World War II, he directed epidemiological studies for the Army in Germany. When Congress established the National Institute of Dental Research (NIDR) in 1948, Dean was appointed its director, a position he held until retiring in 1953.(11) In his post at the NIDR, he was to oversee the first clinical trial of fluoridation in an American city, Grand Rapids Michigan.(12).´” My point being that it was the aluminum company that sold this to the nation with the advantage of taking a waste product and making money from its disposal. Peer review..Doctors pushing pills for kickbacks from big pharma, etc. Greed knows no bounds it seems!
May 26th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
147.cym: daft! Originally Hanover as in the lineage of. Ergo Hanovarian as in geneology. Doesn’t matter when they changed the name.
May 26th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
If you worked in a scientific industry you would know that peer review is not “Doctors pushing pills for kickbacks from big pharm” Peer review can make or break a scientists career.
Does it matter where the discoveries come from? The discovery of X-rays was accidental and yet they are of great medical importance. Dozens of scientific discoveries are made by people not in the field concerned.
Another academic point. There is no point using quotation marks, denoting a quotation, if you are not going to state where the quotation is from. From the numbers in brackets I am guessing Wiki? Although I could be wrong.
If you are using Wiki as a research tool then more fool you.
“Greed knows no bounds it seems!” Another statement from a paranoid individual. Much of academic science (which drives industrial science) is driven by a desire to change things as the monetary rewards are awful. It is clear that you do not have a balanced view of this profession. I do not as I work in it, but at least I can SEE both the good and bad sides of it, whereas you can only seem to see the bad side as portrayed by the media.
May 26th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
149…sigh.
In that case we are all africans and names don’t matter.
Might as well keep the name Tudor seeing as it doesnt matter when they change the name. It is NOT a mere name change. It is a lineage change from a different HOUSE. Or should it still be Stuart? The house of hanover took over from the stuarts with the act of settlement in 1701. The house of saxe coburg-gotha is a NEW house as although he was the son and heir of Victoria, Edward VII inherited his father’s names. This is a new Royal House. Not merely changing names.
It is a difficult and subtle concept that those living in the colonies struggle with, but europeans know the distinction.
You are obviously trying to stay informed, but you are not up on european History as much as someone EDUCATED in europe. I applaud you for your tenacity, but in this case, sir, you are still incorrect.
May 26th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
151.cym: I was replying to your query of where I got Hanover. Of course I could have cited the Stuarts, The war of the roses, Oldenburg, Palatine-Wittellsbach, Bruce or the Plantagenets, for that matter the Saxon and Norman lines. Seems a lot of Scots and Germans with a smattering of French,Danish,Hungarian,Austrian,Italian,Spanish and Portugal. Quite a mixture.
May 26th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
oh lostatsea,
it saddens me to learn you are such a subscriber to conspiracy theory and alt-medical woo. i will cry a little bit for you now.
may i suggest you enter any of the woo that is scaring you into the search engine here and then read the real research that comes up?
http://scienceblogs.com/
you can also try google scholar and regular google, but many of the actual studies and papers in the journals require a paid subscription to read. and that is not a conspiracy, merely a way for these journals to remain in existence, as people don’t just buy them for a fun, light beach read. but if it’s real, real scientists are talking and blogging about it.
also, always remember: the plural of anecdote is not data!
May 26th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Ahhh right I understand – I apologise for my abruptness in that case!
Yes it is quite a mixture, just like the British as a country. And that is what makes it Great
May 26th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
p.s.
i -as a student of botany- think monsanto does some horrid things too, but the whole world is not yet a real corporate conspiracy. don’t let fear make you ignore/invent evidence….
May 26th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
155.lo: Thimerosal, (ethylmercury) has now been eliminated from vaccines proving my point that we dont always know the dangers of what once was thought safe.
May 26th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
True. But with regards to fluoride, we have had 70years for major health problems to surface, and they havent.
As with GM – you have been misinformed by a sensationalist media. Where data is published, there is little to no danger of cross contamination with Wild species or conferring resistances to weeds creating “superweeds”
Suicide genes are many and difficult to engineer into plants, and need other cofactors and conditions before they are activated anyway. It is not financially viable to make seeds that self terminate in any case. I’m sorry but the link you provided is heavily biased and is not a peer reviewed journal…which is what I asked for. Journal articles, preferably double blind studies, with meaningful sample sizes are what you need to provide to prove this conspiracy.
You could site Thalidomide as something we though was safe and turned out not to be. Science is constantly evolving and using new evidence to update theories. Throwing up cases of substances we used to use but now don’t is a poor argument for not using a chemical. Its called progress. Salicylic acid was derived from the willow tree giving us Aspirin; result – we dont chew on willow bark when we have toothache.
Medical literature is littered with compounds we thought would do one thing and turn out to do something else (Heroin for example). Using your logic on Fluoride, however, suggests we should stop using ALL chemicals. (Yes I realise this requires reduction ad absurdum, but it is a logical extension)
Provide us with DATA, not anecdotes and opinions of journalists.
May 26th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
In any case, the thimerosal controversy was caused by a few idiot doctors scare mongering. They said that this preservative in vacinations was linked to autism. Rigorous scientific testing has proved this is simply not the case. Mercury poisoning has completely different symptoms from Autism.
The IoM and WHO both say that thimerosal is perfectly safe. It has been removed from vaccines because scared parents, who listened to the media and not the scientists, stopped getting their children vaccinated.
To this end, it is only affluent countries that are phasing out its use. In Africa and the Far east, sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate (which is what Thimerosal is, NOT ETHYLMERCURY) is still used as an anti fungal and bacterial agent in vaccines.
May 26th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Just to clear it up, ethyl mercury is C2H5Hg+. Thimerosal is C9H9HgNaO2S.
Now, ethyl mercury is a METABOLITE of Thimerosal, but that is not relevent here.
If you are saying ethylmercury is toxic, then it should bioaccumulate, and scientific studies have shown that, unlike methylmercury, ethylmercury does not bioaccumulate, and LD50tables based on methylmercury are not equivalent for ethylmercury. Indeed, no measure of toxicity for methylHg is equivalent for ethylHg
May 26th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
157.cym: Thanks for your input, but its late and will have to dig deeper into flourosis, actually sometimes the herbal remedy is better than the pharmaceutical. hope you watched the link.. the two comedians..worth the visit. night all
May 26th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Well I would like to see clinical figures to back that ascertation up…
Once upon a time all medicine was herbal. We then tested it. What worked became MEDICINE.
Its been good debating you, Nos Da
May 26th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
158.cym: Agree..no link to Autism, seems to be a result of excess testosterone as mostly males are affected.
May 26th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Yeah I saw the vid when it first came out actually. Its from a satirical stand up show called Bremner, Bird and Fortune.
May 26th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
It isnt linked to testosterone (remember girls have testosterone too). It is thought a genetic basis might be the cause. It is being suggested that the genes that cause autism are actually on the X chromosome. It is therefore more prevalent in males as they only have one copy of the X chromosome, whereas girls have two copies – one of which may have the functioning gene thus masking the autistic traits. There are also theories of autosomal transmission and organic causes. All of this is on the National Autistic Society website.
I can see why you jumped to testosterone, but that one hormone is not the only difference between the sexes, and sex linked diseases tend to be down to the X chromosome not being cancelled out by a ‘healthy’ allele, or the gene for disease is carried on the Y chromosome, and thus there is no corresponding allele to mask it (dominance and recessivity of genes) as seen in some forms of colour blindness.
May 26th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
162. lostatsea -
158.cym: Agree..no link to Autism, seems to be a result of excess testosterone as mostly males are affected.
no, no! this weird “early puberty” testosterone woo has led to many kids being chemically castrated. based on no real science!
read more here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/05/dan_olmsted_has_a_very_short_memory.php
and please follow the links back through the original posts (and chicago tribune posts) about how this woo-misinformation has lead to many little autistic boys being chemically castrated by “the lupron protocol.” it is scary stuff. and i assume it may be even scarier to our male LV denizens….
the truth is science doesn’t really know the medical cause of autism right now. more and more things are pointing to genetic susceptibility, but research is ongoing,
May 26th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Well said lo, but you can see why laymen jump on testosterone when people say more boys than girls have a certain condition. It is a wide belief that testosterone is the only difference between the sexes (causing all of the secondary sexual characteristics)
May 26th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
166. cymraegbachgen87 -
sigh, i know…
i think the current US case of the developmentally delayed 13-year-old kid daniel hauser refusing chemo (with his parents full support) for his treatable hodgkin’s lymphoma because he (and his family) had been led to believe that “alternative native american herbs” provided a “100%” cure rate with “zero side-effects” just pushed me over the edge about tolerating woo-medicine.
if you want to try unproven “traditional herbal” cures, and are truly informed about potential risks/benefits do it! as a botanist who spent some time watching what “herbs” people were taking in the amazon, (and took some myself) combined with the vast array of modern, scientific medicines derived from plant compounds, i’m not going to say plant medicines are powerless, but don’t totally ignore and demonize modern, tested medicine while you do so! and know that your use of “unproven herbs” could provoke anything from healing to poisoning to personal allergic response….
but i am not going to say that an unproven plant medicine is a substitute for a proven medicine of any kind. especially when it comes to keeping kids alive.
right now in western society “alternative” medicine should supplement “conventional” medicine. and only sometimes. the “lupron protocol” is an example of unfounded and profoundly affecting drugs being giving to children, with zero studies to back it up.
how can that be good?
May 27th, 2009 at 1:44 am
cym: I truly love reading your posts. It’s always a bit like reading a new science text, and makes me go out and buy a new stack of books.
A dew weeks ago you had a long conversation with someone and I ended up with 4 new science books! If nothing, you are good for my mind. Thanks for that!
May 27th, 2009 at 2:08 am
I live to serve, segue
I have just read a few of lostatseas’ earlier posts, all riddled with scientific errors about fructose and diabetes, but I have not the energy to tackle them just yet – I have been up for nearly 30 hours! Insomnia is a btich
May 27th, 2009 at 6:03 am
169.cym: 167.lo: Plainly I’m lost at sea! I do thank you for the links. I can argue mechanics,hydraulics etc. The human body is a wonderful machine,one which science is still learning about. As a layman I rely on articles to enrich my mind and it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Having seen the havoc a close friend went through with drug cocktails and inumerable surgeries that left her at deaths door, her return to health due to Ayurvedic healing and herbal preparations was truly remarkable. She was diagnosed with cancer and went through all the standard chemo, radiation and surgery which left her unable to walk or work, is now able to even run and resume a grueling work schedule. It took over three years to wean her body off of the drugs her body had relied on and to flush these toxins from her system. From a wan blue tinged skeleton to a robust healthy woman due to a 5,000 yr old medical regime shows western medicine shouldn’t be smug.
May 27th, 2009 at 6:46 am
I find myself almost agreeing with you here…I feel dirty
Western medicine certainly doesnt have all the answers. What I dispair at, however, is when people forsake any western treatment in favour of alternative medicine. I agree with lo that it could be, should be and is an excellent supplement to traditional medicines, but IMHO I believe that traditional medicine should always be the first port of call. It is scientifically tested, double blind tested, subject to change and review and free in the UK
(Yes I know its paid through taxes and NI, but I dont have to pay thousands of pounds for one of my regular trips to A&E or Outpatients)
I also have to take issue with people saying herbal remedies are better for you because they are ‘natural’ and this makes them somehow better, or immune from the side-effects that plague modern drugs (see what I did there
). If something you ingest helps with a particular ailment, it has an active ingredient. If it has an active ingredient, you can have side-effects or allergic reactions the same as with ANY MODERN DRUG.
Again I do apologise if I have been a bit snappy – I have now been up for nearly 36hrs!
May 27th, 2009 at 7:03 am
171.cym: I can only offer the results I witnessed,and had seen first hand the ruination of over 30 years of relying on western medicine on her body. Three and a half years on the Ayurvedic diet and herbal tonics by the oldest herbalist in Toronto has undone the damage the drugs had wrought. I have also suffered through radiation and have first hand knowledge of the ravages of that hell. I also rely on herbal tonics and have now regained weight and strength after suffering many nasty side effects from the drugs. Perhaps you might understand my skepticism of western medicine! Lack of sleep does not a happy cym make!
No need to appologize I was pretty tired too.
May 27th, 2009 at 7:29 am
“Lack of sleep does not a happy cym make!” Indeed it does not.
I am currently on a myriad of different drugs but would not give them up for the world. The side effects are mild (save the sporadic insomnia) and the increased quality of life I have is, quite frankly, worth the trade off.
If you have had good experiences with herbal remedies, by all means continue with them. I just implore you not to switch off modern medicine completely. Yes it makes mistakes (my brother went into an operating theatre having broken his left leg and ankle in multiple places to the point where the leg wasnt straight. In pre-op they wrote “operate on this leg” on the WRONG LEG!) but it can occassionally work as intended
May 27th, 2009 at 9:50 am
6. astraya: probably the native americans
May 27th, 2009 at 10:08 am
#130. cymraegbachgen87 – May 26th, 2009 at 6:42 pm [Report Abuse]
Flouride, in Britain, was and is added to the water supply to strengthen teeth – it is not there as some sort of mind control.
Cym – Just a heads up for you, but on this note look up “Fluoridosis”(sp?). It is somewhat rare, but it does lead one to wonder if milder cases can go unnoticed by peer reviewed studies, or are misdiagnosed by them.
As for the rest of what lastatsea said, please do not generalize because of him. Some of us do read up and do proper research, even though we’re not trained scientists and sometimes have a hard time understanding what we’re presented with.
As for Thimerosol, he’s right, it was deemed dangerous at nearly any amount, and was removed from vaccines, and, if memory serves, you are correct in that was about ten years ago. However, it is still being sold and used in Africa to vaccinate their kids instead. If you’d like, I can try and find the old article about it, though that was nearly two years ago that I read it, so it will be difficult.
Lostatsea – Please, sir, for the sake of the rest of us, just stop. Wait until a list of conspiracy theories or something similar comes up again to post your ideas and opinions on.
May 27th, 2009 at 10:16 am
cym, can we get back to fluoride for a minute?
I’ve always held it in high regard. Good teeth were not exactly a family tradition, nor was good oral hygiene something my parents even attempted to teach us as kids. Naturally, caries were rife, though dental visits were rare.
When I finally grew up and had my own say in things, my teeth were one of the first things I had to contend with. The idea that the didn’t have to hurt all the time was a revelation in itself!
When I had my own children, I might have gone overboard, but I did make sure that even their first baby tooth was brushed with a fluoridated toothpaste after every meal. I had their molars sealed when they were old enough, and was thrilled that our water was fluoridated.
All 3 kids grew to adulthood bright white, shiny teeth, and without having a single carie.
Now I know thats all anecdotal, but it seems to me that the fluoride had to play at least a small part in that success.
If I am wrong, please tell me. I would never unleash the wrath of segue on you, my friend.
May 27th, 2009 at 11:13 am
“As for Thimerosol, he’s right, it was deemed dangerous at nearly any amount”
Please provide me with peer reviewed literature to this effect…as I said above, the IoM and WHO both say that thimerosal is perfectly safe. If it was deemed dangerous at any amount, the WHO would not allow it to be used in vaccines used outside of affluent regions.
“Various international committees (European Agency for the Evaluation of Medicinal Products, EMEA, US Public Health Service/American Academy of Pediatrics, Institute of Medicine, IOM) concluded after an extensive risk/benefit analysis that scientific evidence is inadequate to reject or explicitly recommend thiomerosal-containing vaccines for children.” [Thiomersal and immunisations] 2004 Weisser K et al
AND
“At present, scientific investigation has not found conclusive evidence of harm from thiomersal in vaccines”
Thiomersal in vaccines: is removal warranted? 2001 Clements CJ et al
Both of the above are reviews of literature and data available at time of publication – which was after the Thiomersal scare. I would look for even more recent articles but I’m too tired. If you are interested I will be happy to weigh in with some more
If you cant find an article that is only two years old you are using the wrong search engine
And fluoridosis is a mere discolouration of teeth when the levels of fluoride in water are waaaay too high. I don’t quite understand what you are aluding to by mentioning it? (My brain has stopped working. I am now entering my 40th consecutive hour of being awake…Grrr!)
Segue, I am a proponent of fluoridation in both toothpastes and water as it is excellent for your teeth and there is no conclusive, peer reviewed published evidence saying it is detrimental to development or health in general.
Fluoride strengthens the tooth enamel, making it more resistant to decay; helps to decrease the formation of acids caused by the interaction of plaque and sugar in the mouth; and it can help repair the early stages of decay when it has affected the enamel only by a process called remineralisation. Why WOULDN’T you want your children to be exposed to the recommended levels!?
Lastly, Moloch, I am not taking L@C as representative of the North American Continent. But even if I did, he tries hard and does at least some research which is to his credit (I’m really hoping he isnt a girl now
) I know many americans are diligent in their research and do not live up to the stereotype.
May 27th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Jeez, I didn’t come back right away and realize that I had gotten the response of an idiot so quickly.
127.Corey: So glad to have your hatred! You must be a Christian!! Mercury Not TOXIC?? You mean science is wrong? Neural networks are not damaged by mercury?? Flouride is not a waste product of aluminum smelting??
That comment is endlessly amusing to me.
I’m actually an extreme atheist. It’s funny that you are so ignorant, you think my knowledge of science makes me Christian… a bit contradictory, eh? I’m also currently in my second year of medical school, so let’s just say I’m a bit more qualified than someone who proves their points by the number of Google results they hit…
Alright, this time I won’t just call you stupid. I’ll try to educate you. They didn’t add pure mercury to vaccines. They added a mercury-containing compound called thimerosal, which IS NOT TOXIC. Mercury itself can be toxic in very large amounts, but it is compounds like methylmercury which we are familiar with as toxic (this is what you may consume from fish). People just say “mercury” for short, and unfortunately, idiots like you think it’s all the same.
As for your hilariously misguided comment about fluoride… Maybe it is a byproduct of aluminum smelting. I’m not a smelting expert. But that’s sort of like saying water is a byproduct of explosions (which it is, since I’m guessing you never took chemistry..). Fluoride is an element. Just because it’s around during a reaction doesn’t make it bad. Also, remember that we are probably not talking about the same fluoride-containing compound in these instances…
May 27th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Ah, now that I look over the comments I see cym has already tried to educate you. He/she has a lot more patience than I do.
But I think we’re fighting a losing battle here. It’s pointless to argue with someone who uses google to do their research. (I’m also a big fan of PubMed, cym.
)
Someone as paranoid as lostassea will never listen to facts.
May 27th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
I’ll go you one better; since I could not find the original article, which cited several sources, I did a search on a natural health and medicine site, run by a [i]board certified[/i] physician here in the State, who has access to all of these peer reviewed journals and researches all of his articles before posting them.
Feel free to read through all of these articles, I did notice that at least one of the institutions you mentioned is cited in the top three.
Corey, you can probably go to this site and do a little digging on Fluoride yourself. Also, about Mercury, Aluminum, etc. being in everyday products…
Link: http://search.mercola.com/Results.aspx?q=Thimerosol&k=Thimerosol
May 27th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
180. Moloch-
joseph mercola is indeed a “doctor,” an osteopath to be precise.
that means he holds a professional doctorate, a DO. he is NOT an MD, did NOT graduate from a conventional medical school, and is NOT Board Accredited/Certified in any medical speciality.
but that doesn’t stop him from washing himself with the waters of alt-medicine woo and quackery as he presents himself to the web and world as a regular medical doctor….
or from using his website (which you just linked to) to promote sales of some “alternative supplements” that he has a financial stake in -in a manner that’s led to the FDA giving him formal warnings at least twice
http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html (yes i’m aware quackwatch founder stephen barrett has fought many legal battles about libel, fraud and or defamation with many woosters. they’ve gone both ways. you can google results for them yourself.)
and he’s an anti-vaccination nutjob, supporting his anti-vax crazy talk with bad/fake science.
so he’s not really the best source.
May 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
these are mercola’s credential according to his own website:
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 1972-1976
Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine 1978-1982
Chicago Osteopathic Hospital 1982-1985 Family Practice Residency. Chief resident 1984- 1985
Board Certified American College Osteopathic General Practitioners July 1985
State of Illinois Licensed Physician and Surgeon
so you can see his “Board Certification” is an osteopathic one, and he is licensed to legally practice pretty much only in IL. it is unlikely that his credentials would be recognized as equivalent to Medical Doctor training anywhere outside of the states and some parts of canada.
if you really want to know about vaccines and thimerosal (ethyl mercury), i suggest you read this:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14
not mercola.
May 27th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
if you really want to learn about thimerosal (ethyl mercury) and vaccines please read this
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14
not mercola.
May 27th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
where are my comments going? this is a test.
May 27th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
why can’t i post a link to “science based medicine” about thimerosal?
there was one link in the comment and if i’m in moderation i’d like to know it and know why, thank you.
May 27th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
why can i not link to a blog about science, run by a bunch of very respected medical doctors? it’s even a wordpress site!
jamie, are you part of an alternative medicine collective?
fine, please google:
“Mercury in vaccines as a cause of autism and autism spectrum disorders (ASDs): A failed hypothesis”
it is the title of the article i want to share, select the first choice, the one at the science based medicine site.
May 27th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
184,lo: Mea culpa! I subscribe to Mercola’s news letter and then check further. I was under the impression he was an MD,and no I have never bought any of his products! He was right on the swine flue scare. The article on autism I found was on; http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:y8LltCp5rQkJ:www.safeminds.org/research/docs/Blaxill-DenmarkAutismThimerosalPediatrics.pdf+safeminds+madsen&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us also checked SB (science blogs)
May 27th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Actually, I too was unaware of the difference. However, considering that his approaches have worked for me where my PCP’s conventional(drug) approaches have not leads me to believe him a bit more than the media, the pharmaceutical industry, and conventional medicine.
Perhaps I’m a genetic throwback, and my body just will not react well to modern drugs and treatments, either way, I think I’ll stick with what works.
Also, on the subject of Thimerosal, and Mercury in general; how can you say that any type of Mercury is safe? Just because it’s bonded with Ethyl (an alcohol if I’m not mistaken, and not one of the safe ones either)does that make it safe? I don’t believe so. The human body is far too complex, and contains far too many subtle functions, for us to make broad judgments and forecasts with relatively new and certainly unnatural chemicals.
As for the article you wanted to cite, what, if any, are the author’s involvements or entanglements with industries or companies who would benefit from their expressed point of view? It has been said that research scientists aren’t rewarded well, so what’s to stop them from selling their souls to the devil in order to live a bit better?
May 27th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
the author of the article i wanted you to read is
feel free to google him up yourself.
and he cites all the other people whose research he mentioned down at the bottom, so you can look them up too.
also, here is his self disclosure:
and here’s the article i pulled that from, completely about just what you asked: “who’s funding this research and is the science and methodology sound?”
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=466#more-466
May 27th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
p.s. jamie has kindly found the posts with the link i wanted you to follow and restored them. so it’s up there now, twice, i believe
please follow it too.
May 27th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
177. cymraegbachgen87 : Thank you for that response, cym. It’s exactly what I had always believed (since reaching adolescence and reading Nature and Science). All of the arguments against it of late had gotten me to wonder what was up. Just more fundie rigamarole, then. Add it to the pile.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:25 am
Right. I’m back. And shocked at the science being put on display here.
First. Ethyl is a group CH3CH2-. ETHANOL is an alcohol and is CH3CH2OH. The OH at the end makes ALL the difference.
Second. Ethanol (which is what you confused the ethyl group for) is THE ONLY SAFE ALCOHOL THE HUMAN BODY CAN CONSUME. Methanol, propanol, butanol and so on are too toxic for the body to consume. I am not going to take advice on medicine from a person who knows zip about science.
How can any mercury be safe? If it is bonded, it cannot be biocaccumulated. If all of its electrons are coupled, it cannot interact with the body. Besides the body needs Arsenic, Mercury, Aluminium and Lead in trace amounts
“Just because it’s bonded with Ethyl”
A single side chain can completely change the bio-activation and purpose of a molecule. It changes the charge, local folding (in the case of many long chain molecules and thus which enzymes they fit into and thus which bioreactions they affect) You have zero knowledge of chemistry – that is what your quote says to me. You swap out ethyl and put in methyl (so you would have an end product CH3Hg instead of CH3CH2Hg) and you have increased toxitiy by many orders of magnitude.) In chemistry a single atom change can make massive differences.
“with relatively new and certainly unnatural chemicals”
Like I said above. “If something you ingest helps with a particular ailment, it has an active ingredient. If it has an active ingredient, you can have side-effects or allergic reactions the same as with ANY MODERN DRUG”
“It has been said that research scientists aren’t rewarded well, so what’s to stop them from selling their souls to the devil in order to live a bit better?”
And there we go. You have just insulted me personally No the financial rewards are not great, but unlike in industry, we have less corporate backing (much coming from those evil charities and universities that want us to do their bidding). Peer review is the single most important thing to us. Any research we publish must have where our funding/reagents come from. If we were found to have been biased, people would soon pick it up and if it were bad enough, peer review would prevent it from being published in repuptable sources
You havent a clue about the real research world so YTF do you feel qualified to talk about it? Companies benefit more from having INDEPENDENT review of their drugs and products. Paranoid people such as yourself havent a clue and don’t care who you offend.
“since I could not find the original article”
This proves you are not an academic and the article in question was not published in a peer reviewed journal such as nature. If it was you would easily have been able to find it on a site such as PubMed or Metalib
May 28th, 2009 at 7:55 am
“Cell Phones Do Not Cause Cancer.”
Are you kidding me? There is no concrete evidence either way, moreover, cell phones have not been in rampant use long enough for any long term, or even short term, studies to be performed.
This is not a myth. This is something that has not been studied yet.
I love lists, and these lists are great. But every time I read one, it seems like the author is trying to make facts out of air. You can provide information, but to say something like ‘cell phones DON’T cause cancer’, is like saying, people living in NYC didn’t have breathing problems after 9/11. You just, don’t, know.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:02 am
“But every time I read one, it seems like the author is trying to make facts out of air”
If that offends you so much, stop reading the lists.
Problem solved.
The rest of us know this is not an educational site and all claims should be taken with a pinch of salt. These are for entertainment purposes, and arent part of any country’s national curriculum.
The comments provide space for the ascertations to be challenged and stimulate debate. The point I think that is trying to be made here is that people ‘know’ that mobile phones give you cancer. As you say, there is not enough evidence to support THAT theory either.
Chill out, and if you cant, dont visit the site any more!
May 28th, 2009 at 8:35 am
192. cymraegbachgen87: Well, I’m glad someone got a good nights sleep. I really meant to nip on over and tuck you in, but got distracted by working on my photo site. Then when I did get to sleep, it was broken sleep, and I had another incidence of syncope which resulted in a sprained wrist and a black eye.
yipee-kyo-kyia.
I could sit here and make sarcastic jokes at all of the stupid misleading anti-science statements made on this list (the wrath of segue unleashed!), but to tell the truth, I am too exhausted.
Just let it be known that if you are using Wiki, or the tabloids, or the public press for your science facts, your opinion isn’t worth the ink used to print it, or the bandwidth used to put it on the web….
May 28th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Yeah I got to sleep eventually. I’m on a new anti seizure medication and one of its side effects is insomnia. But the doctors have promised me that will stop soon and why wouldnt I believe them!?
(for those who cant tell – that was sarcasm!)
May 28th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
192. cym
– lordy what ever you do don’t bring up CYANOCOBALAMIN – made with cobalt and cyanide – they been feeding us this chemical decades! Shit’ll kill ya!!!
May 29th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
197. TEX: CYANOCOBALAMIN is just a form of vitamin B-12. Isn’t it?
May 29th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
198 Segue
Yes it is. I think the point TEX is making is that it is something we need, and yet contains chemical groups that, on their own are poisonous.
May 29th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
And I am taxing the 200 spot!
May 30th, 2009 at 10:23 am
A lot of the things we consume, broken down into their individual parts, contain items which, alone, would be poisonous. Too, we have to keep in mind the quantity of the items. Taking 1/8th mcg of a substance is far different than taking 1 MG of the same substance, and the bodies reaction would be quite different, too (unless I’ve forgotten all of the chemistry I’ve ever learned, that is).
May 30th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Question!
What is a mcg?
May 30th, 2009 at 10:34 am
200 cym: Was that 3000 post envy?
(ok…I know that was mean, but I couldn’t help myself)
May 30th, 2009 at 10:41 am
And yes it was 3000 post envy. I’m still annoyed I missed that one! I had 2997-2999 and 3001-3002! How did I miss it!?
Damn lostatsea!
May 30th, 2009 at 11:12 am
cym: I knew I was probably wrong, but I was trying for microgram.
May 30th, 2009 at 11:26 am
μg is the standard symbol for microgram, with ug if you don’t have access to the greek letter mu.
May 30th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Thanks, cym. I have a terrible time sometimes, not being able to know whether I have forgotten something or if it’s something I’ve never known. I’m pretty sure this is something I’ve known and has been wiped out of my memory. Your reminder, however will restore the memory from now on.
My problem with memory is the awful load of narcotics I carry on board at all times, just to make life bearable. The memory problems can be a bit of a drag, but it could be worse.
May 30th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
…actually, mcg is fairly common for microgram. At least over here it is! That’s the shorthand they use at the hospital.
My sister’s got a gigantic list of shorthand abbreviations they use for all sorts of things. (even a few to describe the more cantankerous patients!) Had a looksy for funsies.
May 30th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Gabi,
I have no doubt that mcg is used, however if I put down mcg in any of my chemistry or biology exams meaning micrograms I would lose marks as μg is the standard scientific denotation.
If you are only making notes for yourself or a select few, you can use any shorthand you like!
Any funny abbrevs for the patients?
May 30th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
The only one I know (thanks to an old friend who was an ER nurse) was GOMER, for Get Out O My Emergency Room; usually reserved for those who even the hardened ER nurses didn’t want to get within a 10 foot poles reach of…drunk and reeking of every possible thing a human can reek of.
(yes, I know I ended the sentence with a preposition…I’m tired, I’m barely thinking, I know I done better, but so what…sue me)
May 30th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
nothing risque that I can remember. Apparently, I wasn’t supposed to be looking at that list.
GOM AOB means Grumpy old man with alcohol on his breath
May 30th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
funny i haven’t even heard of most of these myths
May 31st, 2009 at 1:20 am
cym: Sorry to hear you have seizures
It sounds as if you are on a drug cocktail and that can have nasty side effects. I always knew when my friend was given new drugs as it had deleterous effects. I have problems from the radiation I received and the drugs that caused extreme weight loss. I read Professor Arnold Ehret’s ‘Mucusless Diet Healing System’ and have stopped drinking milk and curtailed meat and processed food. I have since regained a healthy weight and feel much better! Eastern medicine is over 5,000 yrs old and treats the disease rather than the symptoms. We are after all carbon based entities. Seems I had to add the 1 on word press to my old moniker.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:27 am
If you prefer Eastern or complimentary medicine over Western traditional medicine then that is your personal choice. All I know is that the various non-traditional groups that have approached me to have THEIR treatment were crackpots who said a neurological disease could be controlled with diet and exercise, or a rare plant that grew only in the foothills of the Andes and they could cure me for £5000. Or they told me to drink my own urine. These were charlatons and much of the literature on alternative therapies to epilepsy shows it is inconclusive at best. At least my western meds have documented evidence that they acutally work. Western medicine screws up from time to time (see above) but I feel it is infinitely better than some herbalists who give you something that cannot possibly work – Homeopathy for example.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:58 am
214.cym: I use both with discretion and while charlatons abound, there are many who are extremely knowledgable, including Medical Doctors and in my case a retired surgeon and MD who has studied and practices Ayurvedic disiplines. We all are different and react to drugs differently according to our bio-chemistry. I wish you well and hope we will find cures for your and other illnesses.
May 31st, 2009 at 8:08 am
A nice hope lostatsea and I thank you for it. However, it is extremely unlikely we are going to ‘cure’ epilepsy any time soon. We have enough trouble merely managing it!
We know more about the surface of the moon than we do about epilepsy in its myriad of forms.
As to many alternative therapies – they are not shown to have an effect above that of placebo. Now, the placebo effect can be very powerful and so can show surprising results, but for studies that correct for the placebo effect, a vast majority of alternative therapies are shown to be completely ineffective. As I have said throughout though – if it works for you then keep using it, but dont espouse alternative therapies to the detriment of all other, more traditional medicines.
May 31st, 2009 at 8:10 am
Remember, the idea that ancient equals years of accumulated wisdom is a fallacy.
May 31st, 2009 at 8:18 am
Just read up a bit on Ayurveda and it seems perilously close to the ancient greek theory of the four humours, a medical practice shown to be completely wrong. The practice of the four humours lead to the death of high ranking officials throughout Europe throughout the Middle Ages. Sorry lostatsea, but I cannot take this seriously.
This is confirmed when I see one of the eight disciplines of this therapeutic system is demonic possession…although it has been renamed in the last century to psychiatry. Despite this name change, the practices have remained constant.
It maintains that the universe is made up of the key elements earth air fire and water. This is completely wrong.
I do wonder how a seemingly intelligent and logical person such as yourself falls prey to pseudoscience and BS.
Although it is true that modern science does not know everything, how do you explain that all well designed experiments that allow for the placebo effect show that this particular branch of alternative medicine is largely ineffective? It does state that certain compounds used in a minority of the therapies show some promise, and the whole exercise and yoga thing is always good and the hygienic mindset of practioners is excellent, but much of the rest is shown to not work
May 31st, 2009 at 10:05 am
cym, I’m really sorry to hear about your Epilepsey. I can imagine it’s a frightening disease because you never know when an attack is coming.
I’m glad you haven’t allowed anyone talk you into alternative treatments, rather than Western medicine. I had an example right in front of me a few years ago, and those involved were trying to talk me into going with them to the “healers” place in Mexico.
The Mom and wife in that house had a brain tumor, which was operable when found, but the husband and she were nervous about the idea of brain surgery and chemo/radiation. So they found this quack in Mexico (he could have been from anywhere, he just happened to be from a town in Mexico). The treatment was dietary (for a cancerous brain tumor!), and was quite costly for the “rich” Americans.
They talked themselves into believing it was working until the tumor was large, and had invaded so much of the brain it was no longer operable.
However between finding him and coming to grips with the truth, they convinced another neighbor, with MS, to go with them and take the treatments (all this while they were pushing me to go along and be “cured” of an incurable condition).
The neighbor with MS went, and all that happened was that the stress of the trips caused her MS to go into overdrive. So much so that she had to give up independent living and go back home to live with her family. At 35.
I could go on and on, but I think I’ve made my point.
May 31st, 2009 at 10:26 am
“We all are different and react to drugs differently according to our bio-chemistry”
That statement makes it sound as if all of our biochemistries are radically different. They arent. They a subtly different and these subtlties are often the reason for allergies to certain compounds.
My last point on the matter: Eastern medicine IS NOT BETTER THAN WESTERN MEDICINE. It is based on superstition and magic, and while it hits the target occassionally, this is either down to the placebo effect or blind luck. Properly controlled trials of these therapies under double blind, placebo controlled conditions show that at best these therapies are inconclusive, at worst they dont work and are cheating people out of their hard earned money. Western medicine (why it is called this I don’t know as it is used in Asia and the middle east) is scientifically tested and works on sound medical principals. If practitioners of alternative therapies were seen as front line medical workers, they would not require a separate license to practise traditional medicine.
Segue,
Yeah it is a pain in the posterior but I’ve gotten used to it now. Its the side-effects from the drugs that are most annoying, but they are unavoidable and I wouldn’t trade them for the world.
Unfortunately your story doesnt shock or surprise me. People put their trust in charlatans who pretend to have their patients’ best interests at heart but actually only have their own bank balance at heart.
I was reading a report about British Chiropracters and more than half of them believe they can treat asthma through spinal manipulation, and a whopping 96% believe that it is not just back injuries that they can heal.
I wish people would grow up and listen to accredited scientists. They know what they are talking about. I have little time for any alternative therapy tbbh.
May 31st, 2009 at 6:25 pm
220.cym, I am in my 60s and pick and choose what works for me. I have never professed Eastern medicine to be better..just a different outlook of approach. I have an 80+ yr old Oxford educated MD who was also a surgeon who has healed two people I can vouch for. They were considered incurable and after western medicine had given up, with multiple radiation and chemo, are now healthy strong individuals with energy and life. There are charlatans and there are healers..the difference is knowing which. BTW one is cancer free 3 1/2 yrs the other over 5..and that is with MRI and PET scans. Healing is a bit like religion..one needs to understand all to be able to pick the best for you. I have gone through the radiation gamut and am now healthy exept for the damage caused by the rad ‘Therapy’. I lost 80 lbs and had the G-tube for feeding as I couldn’t eat or swallow..Whatever works for each of us is the only important thing. I do wish you well..
I had an epileptic have an episode outside the Picadilly Tube and was appalled by people walking by him. I stuffed his rolled up tie in his mouth (not easy) and pulled out his tongue as he was gagging. This was in central London I find it hard to see others not helping someone in distress..seems to be a more common occurence..shame.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:05 pm
R.E The person you saw have a seizure. You did the wrong thing there. I have bitten my mothers’ finger down to the bone due to her trying to move my tongue. I have had splinters, fibres and various other injuries in my mouth from people trying to shove something in there. For future reference you place the casualty’s head on you lap if safe to do so, and move their head to the side. If not safe, you try and move obstructions and protect their head at all costs. Other injuries will heal; interfering with the head and mouth during a seizure is extremely dangerous. It may have sounded like he was gagging, but it was most likely his throat in convulsion. I sound like a choking rhino even when I am on my side (so I am told)
At least you didnt try to hold this person down – my dad did that once and I dislocated my shoulder. Other people have tried to move me whilst I have been having a seizure and have received black eyes, bruises and other injuries for their trouble. A seven year old child can drag a fully grown man to the bottom of a swimming pool during a seizure – all of the body’s defence mechansims are turned off, so the muscle fibres contract more than is safe making the person having a seizure many times stronger than normal.
I too am troubled that members of the public did not stop to help. But you could quite easily have done more harm than good, despite your excellent intentions.
I also never said you said eastern medicine was better than western. I said it was my last point on the matter and it was more a general shout out. As I have said to you, if it works then keep using it!.
June 1st, 2009 at 4:11 am
cym. I hope I never have to experience that again.
I can’t imagine living with the fear of having a seizure and suffering the convulsions that I witnessed and being helpless. I did cradle his head on the bag I was carrying and had turned his head(my old army first aid,we had been taught to use a pencil or tongue depressor) That does seem a bit stupid now, as if a pencil will do any good! I do enjoy our banter and wish you well.
June 1st, 2009 at 4:35 am
223.
I don’t blame you for the action you took. Many people think you must move the casualty and insert something in the mouth but it has emerged that this is dangerous for both the casualty and the person trying to help.
As for the living in fear, I suppose when I first was diagnosed there was anxiety of seizures, but after nearly 7 years with this condition, I have gotten used to it. You physically cannot live in fear for that length of time!
I find it easier being the person HAVING the seizures. I have scared a number of people who have witnessed them, to the point where a few people stopped talking to me…dunno why! Ignorance I suppose. It isnt a nice experience, but at the end of it I wake up with no memory of the event (and often no memory of several hours previous), with a headache and feeling as if i have just run a marathon! I dont see it, which I feel is more disturbing.
June 1st, 2009 at 5:12 am
224.
You’re too modest,at least two marathons!! I’d be afraid of tearing a tendon or two! Man can not live with fear..we have to take what life gives us and overcome our problems. I find having a sense of humour extremely important.
Hopefully others will read your post and understand how to help someone who has a siezure in future.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:24 am
What’s with the teacher bashing? I’ve never taught any of these “facts” when there was research to disprove them.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:10 pm
You do realize that Columbus did NOT discover the americas, right? Not did the vikings visit the Americas LONG before Columbus did, but you’re ignoring a painfully obvious logical fallacy. How did Columbus discover a continent when there were already MILLIONS of people living there?!? Seems like the millions of people that had already been living there discovered the continent long before anyone else.
June 1st, 2009 at 2:08 pm
226,Tyler: Thor Hyerdahl a Norwegian Explorer, proved that ancient people could circumnavigate the globe by using ocean currents and trade winds to further trade and sometimes by way of accident. We in modern society scorn ancient man without the records that truly told their stories. The Piri Riis map shows Antartica with NO ice cover. So many fascinating mysteries of life and our perception of it..how we perceive it is wholy something else!
All Empires have had a rise and fall, some faster than others!! How strange that a (microbe)would level the native tribes of the Americas.. or was it a virus..Cym: help me here!! I don’t feel like checking TB !!
June 1st, 2009 at 2:31 pm
227. lostatsea
Depends on which epidemic, which period of time and which region you speak of. Columbus brought influenza, the Portugese brought smallpox to Brazil, the British, the Dutch, and Spaniards brought smallpox elsewhere along with measles and typhoid fever. Missionaries were thought to be the cause of a bubonic plague outbreak in the Gulf of Mexico region.
You are right about ancient cultures. Some traveled across the Bering Strait land bridge from Asia. The most supported theory regarding the Olmec Civilization (roughly 10000 BCE in Meso-America) is that sailors traveled from Africa. Skeptics point out that evidence shows African tribes have nothing more advanced than rudimentary rafts at that time but there’s quite a bit of art and botanical evidence linking Olmecs with Africans.
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:17 am
lostatsea:
In fact Thor Heyerdahl proved nothing of the kind; his attempts to navigate the ocean in his various vessels ran the gamut from out-and-out failure to questionable (at best) “success.” They are not at all worthy as “proof” of anything—all they did was leave open the door that it was still remotely possible… but that was the case before Heyerdahl made his attempts.
As any sailor knows (I’m one myself), ocean sailing isn’t only a matter of hopping in the boat and hoisting the mainsail. Indeed, sailing of ANY kind isn’t only a matter of that. It requires a sophisticated kind of navigation if one is going to sail away from the view of coastline (and thus away from reference markers). Dead reckoning is possible for short distances, but the further one goes, the less accurate it becomes. The stars, of course, are to be relied upon, as is the sun… but it requires A) visibility and B) a means of assessing the movement and location of the stars and sun (sextents, for instance) and finally, C) it requires some means of assessing TIME, as knowledge of this is required for judging position as well.
Furthermore, reliable distance sailing in open water requires a particular kind of sail; this is part of the reason why ocean sailing was not extensively practiced until the 15th century–sail technology prior to that time made use strictly of the square sail, which is great for power but near useless for wide navigation. It was the development of the lateen (triangular) sail that made selective navigation possible, since triangular sails set on a moveable line allow the ship to steer close to the wind; square sails set on their relatively stationary beam line cannot do this, and so the ship is at the mercy of the wind entirely, and can sail only to a certain degree across the wind and of course downwind (what we call “on a run”). You might not think this is a big deal—but try it sometime. You might, on an off chance, accidentally get somewhere. But good luck getting back before you’d run out of water and/or starve, if you could even find your way back.
There is simply no evidence that ancient man had developed the navigational or sail technology to manage the feet of cross-ocean sailing. The only ones who managed the navigation part of it—at least to a certain extent–are the Polynesians, who masterfully and wisely used a system of primitive sextant-type constructs to navigate from island to island (they were also excellent at judging cloud formations over land which was invisible beyond the horizon). There is, perhaps, something to be said for Polynesians having made it to South America, using their tools and skills—but there is as yet no solid evidence of it.
And there is certainly no solid evidence that anyone else managed to get to the Americas (other than the native Americans, who came possibly by land, over the famous “land bridge” and/or by boat, hugging the shore line—though again, there is no solid evidence even of this) prior to the Vikings in around the year 1000. And the Vikings, of course, managed it primarily by hopping from relatively close locales—Iceland to Greenland, and thence to Labrador, Nova Scotia, etc. Now, these places are not really “close” in real terms—but they’re a great deal closer than crossing the empty ocean directly across the mid-Atlantic or South Atlantic. They allow for some degree of dead reckoning and then coastal hugging, which is exactly what the Vikings did once they got to North America.
It isn’t that ancient peoples COULDN’T have done it… I doubt very much that they could PURPOSEFULLY manage a sail across the Atlantic… but a coastal-hugging route of the far north may have been possible. But the main point is that there is no EVIDENCE of it. And it is NOT an easy feat, and if we examine what we know of the great sailing cultures of the ancient world (the Phoenicans, the Greeks) the clear evidence is that although they managed to sail great distances at times, they almost always did so strictly by close coastal hugging. Voyages into the open sea were considered suicidal.
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:29 am
gabi319:
“You are right about ancient cultures. Some traveled across the Bering Strait land bridge from Asia.”
At present, the ONLY evidence we have is that they ALL came from that route. (that is to say, all those people who were ancestors of the later “native Americans”).
“The most supported theory regarding the Olmec Civilization (roughly 10000 BCE in Meso-America) is that sailors traveled from Africa.”
WRONG. This is NOT “the most supported theory” at all–it is, in fact, nothing but wild conjecture based on the flimsiest “evidence.” The “most supported theory”—in fact the only one that there is any evidence at all for—is the mainstream scientific theory that the Olmecs, like all other native Americans, were ancestors of the original Sibero-asiatic peoples who crossed the so-called land bridge in the Bering anywhere from 15,000 to 40,000 years ago, depending on which school of thought you get your dates from—but where they disagree on dates, they all agree on place. And it was the Bering.
Moreover, the Olmecs do NOT date back to “10,000 BC.” They date back, at best, to about 3000 BC, and there is little evidence of any solid nature that links them to any culture older than that.
The pseudo-science notion that the Olmecs came from Africa is based, as I said, on very flimsy “evidence” mainly regarding slight resemblances to Africans found in ancient Olmec busts and statues—but these and other apparent resemblances are not scientifically acceptable and, while interesting, can all be put down to variations within racial appearance (which is why “race” is not recognized as a scientific concept).
“Skeptics point out that evidence shows African tribes have nothing more advanced than rudimentary rafts at that time but there’s quite a bit of art and botanical evidence linking Olmecs with Africans.”
The botanical evidence is at best questionable. I’ve already addressed the artistic evidence, which is flimsier still.
But it is certainly true that there is no evidence of ANY African cultures possessing the capability to manage cross-ocean travel and navigation; they were less suited to it than even the Phoenicians, some of the greatest sailors and navigators of the ancient world—who almost certainly couldn’t have managed it either.
The thing is, we in our modern world of GPS and air flight and powered boating—we have no concept of how difficult ocean sailing is and would be without ANY modern or even medieval technologies. It is not simply a matter of having enough food and water on board and having a sea worthy vessel (though these are not dismissable matters either—in fact, they’re also key). It’s a matter of having the means to get from place to place reliably, and having the means to utilize the wind and not simply be at its mercy. This was not, as far as we know, possible until roughly the 15th century.
It isn’t that ancient man positively COULDN’T have done it… it’s just that there’s no evidence FOR it and a lot of evidence AGAINST it.
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:32 am
Tyler:
Calm yourself kid. The idea about “Columbus discovering America” is not to diss the native Americans who were already living here–the idea is that Columbus (or the Vikings who preceded him) “discovered” the continent for Europeans—who prior to that time were ignorant of its existence… just as native Americans probably were ignorant of the fact that there were other continents out there in the greater world than their own. The “discovery” was thus mutual—the Europeans discovered the Americas, and the Americas “discovered” that other lands and peoples existed in the world beyond the seas.
June 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 am
The americas then discovered flu and smallpox!
I’ve always been puzzled with the american holiday of thanksgiving…aren’t you celebrating wiping out indiginous (sp?) people?
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:00 am
233 cym: I don’t celebrate it because of that reason.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:37 am
cymrikkitikkitavi:
Yeah that’s right, we’re celebrating the destruction of native Americans. Uh huh.
Welsh butthole.
IN POINT OF FACT the Thanksgiving Holiday is a celebration of THANKS, a tradition which is by no means limited to the US, by the way—and acknowledges (originally) the gratitude which the pilgrim fathers expressed for surviving that nasty first year at the Plymouth Colony, (with native assistance, yes) and later was meant to express American gratitude overall for our wonderfully bountiful country and all that it has offered us. Nowhere in this (are you reading oouchan?) is there an implied celebratory air regarding the nasty shaft given to the various tribes of native peoples.
Perhaps you are alien to the idea of giving thanks in Welshie-land, but we are not. You might wanna give thanks to the English for not having wiped YOUR sorry Celtic asses off the island entirely. At least they left you Wkgkllyganyn and Brygnykstyrlln and the various other vowel-less creeks and brooks and rocky meadows you evil-gnome-like people still inhabit.
Twerp.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:40 am
cymfreshpizzabakken:
Naturally I was only tweaking you and love your smelly Welsh people and their backward, funny ways with consonants and whatnot.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:43 am
235 Randall: I understand its for thanks.
But what I protest is what they did after. Nice way of showing *their* thanks, don’t you think? That is why I don’t celebrate it. Just wanted to point that out.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:57 am
That is precisely what I mean. You are thanking for all your country has provided, but you wouldnt have a country if you didnt wipe out or marginalise the original inhabitants.
And the welsh are backward? We aren’t the ones banning gay marriage, or have a significant % of our populace believing in the creation story as truth, or deny global warming…I could continue..
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:58 am
Seriously, the welsh are ugly people
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:59 am
Great Britain didn’t “wipe out” any inhabitants or take over any land huh? They never dont that in their history. What about Afica. Thank you “Great” Britain for that. You guys are awesome.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:01 pm
oouchan:
Well clearly you DON’T understand, oouchie, because, again, the holiday is no longer (and hasn’t been for a very long time) about giving “thanks” for the Pilgrim’s survival or for the nice way god in his infinite wisdom let us push the natives off their land and into the casino business. It’s simply about giving “thanks” for all the wonderful and good that we enjoy in our sad little modern lives.
Frankly, I’m grateful that I live in a time when we have TV, computers, cars, space exploration, relatively reliable medical science and a good shot at living more than thirty or forty years. I don’t care WHO I’m thanking, or what, or why—I’m just grateful… to the fates or god or the Grand Galactic Inquisitor or maybe just to good human ingenuity and toughness. And I’m thankful for my health and my kids and the various other whatnots of my life.
I’m not casting aspersions your way, but you MIGHT wanna check out that gratitude thing—can’t hurt you.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Enigma,
The brits were one of the first nations to start wiping out native americans, either deliberately or accidentally. My point is we don’t have a holiday as an indirect result.
WE took out africa, canada, the present USA, australia, NZ, many south pacific isle, afghanistan, India, pakistan, bangladesh…the list goes on and on. Before WWI the sun never set on the British Empire. Don’t think Africa is our legacy…it is merely a piece of it. And also don’t forget the problems AFrica faces is also due to the other colonial powers such as holland and france. The state of Africa is Europe’s fault, not just Britains.
Don’t preach to me. I never said we didnt wipe out native inhabitants. That is an ignorant post from someone who obviously cant read.
241
“the holiday is no longer (and hasn’t been for a very long time) about giving “thanks” for the Pilgrim’s survival”
So children at school dont recreate the pilgrims sitting down with the natives anymore? Maybe that is how YOU interpret the holiday, but that is not how it seems for much of the country. Or maybe your media just distorts it who knows.
I take it you still eat turkey at TG?
Although the holiday may have adapted, it still has its roots in genocide, like it or not.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
cymsmokin’astogie:
And YOU wouldn’t have a country if your own far-flung ancestors hadn’t invaded it and taken it from the original Brittanic inhabitants somewhere around 500BC, smartass. A lot longer ago, but the point is the same. We might today know why and how Stonehenge and Avebury, et al, were built, if your sorry-ass Celtic ancestors (whose sole talent was in painting themselves blue) hadn’t wiped out the indigenous culture of Briton that was responsible for those wonders—which YOUR ancestors were incapable of building, by the way… the only thing they could manage at those places was to use them for holding orgies and blood sacrifices. Yeah, nice. Filthy ratbags.
But seriously now, in point of fact we WOULD have a country in ANY case… it might simply be much smaller and of a different shape is all. You don’t know American history much, clearly. The establishment of the original colonies DID cause SOME displacement of the various native tribes—but it was slight and slim compared to what happened post-1800.
AND ANYWAY–your people are STILL to blame, because if the British had simply treated the American colonies respectfully and honorably, they never would have revolted and you could have dictated how far we went into Indian territory. But nooooo… it was more important to lord it over us. Again, nice.
OH… and BY THE WAY, my Welsh friend—the FACT is that DELIBERATE introduction of cholera and smallpox was IN FACT a crime committed NOT by Americans but by BRITISH soldiers PRIOR to the Revolution—the old story about blankets impregnated with these diseases being deliberately pawned off on the sorry Indians in order to reduce their numbers turned out to be true—and was the work of at least two British officers round about, if I recall correctly, 1750.
Self-righteous smug Welsh knothole.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
241 Randall: Ahhh…but you see, I don’t feel that same way.
It was a holiday previously (just as you pointed out that its not been this way for a long time) that was used to celebrate giving thanks and now is some commercialized crappy holiday. I spend it with my family to eat food. That is about it. I don’t give thanks to these people or what they went through previously. To ME and ME alone it would be the same as giving thanks to some dictator or coup because they did one or two things right but they did many more things wrong. Even though that is not what it is now, it still feels wrong…to me.
Also, gratitude and respect go hand in hand. To lose one is to lose the other.
Of course, this is my opinion on how I conduct my life. In no way do I want to tell others how to live theirs so if you giving thanks to others on this day works for you…so be it. It’s just not my cup of tea.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Missed out the caribbean, a lot of the middle east…in fact nearly 80 separate colonial areas made up the British Empire, most of which now have independence.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
238. Cym “We aren’t the ones banning gay marriage, or have a significant % of our populace believing in the creation story as truth, or deny global warming…I could continue.. ”
Although I agree there should not be a ban on gay marriage you are not considering a few things. You are over simplifying things in some of your comments.
America has 300 million citizens compared to 3 million in Wales and what, 59-60 million in all of Great Britain? America is much bigger and more diverse than Britain. In America, there is not a one party government system representing a small number of people. America has a representative democracy with 3 separate branches including a bicameral congress that has to represent 300 million people which includes many minority groups. You cannot possibly compare the decisions/laws of these two governments.
Also “a significant % believes in the creation story and deny global warming?” Are you serious? Have you ever been to America?
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Your ENTIRE first paragraph is erroneous.
It was receieved wisdom that the celts wiped out the original inhabitants of Cymru and by extension, Britain, but evidence is coming to light that in fact, the majority of the modern Welsh population (and the British population as a whole) descends from migrants from the Iberian Peninsula during the Mesolithic era. The welsh are the closest to the original brittanic inhabitants of this nation. You don’t know much about Welsh History. It has been suggested that a celtic language was being spoken in Wales by about 700 BC, 200 years before we allegedly wiped out everyone in britain…
Population genetics studies show that immigration into the british isles was slow and small scale, not big enough to wipe out a culture, but large enough to modify an existing one.
“We might today know why and how Stonehenge and Avebury, et al, were built,” As it is, a new TimeTeam expedition has seemingly solved why stonehenge was built. It is due to be shown this week and I shall keep you up to date. You don’t know much about English History
Tone back the ad hom. This is a site for debate, not name calling.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
cymcrackersncheese:
Seriously, you’re going SO overboard with this holier-than-thou bullshit. I have my tongue mostly in cheek, but you ARE taking it a tad too far:
“So children at school dont recreate the pilgrims sitting down with the natives anymore?”
In point of fact, Cymmie, yes… the intepretation of the holiday in schools—at least in New York (but as far as I know, in other states as well) HAS, in fact, been altered to address the truth about our land-grabbing history and the various nastiness which we did to the humble natives. It’s no longer depicted as a simple blind celebration of Pilgrim happiness, ignoring the plight inflicted on the Indians by later American colonists.
But all this is only of partial relevance–the damn thing didn’t become an actual holiday until Franklin Roosevelt’s time as president, and it has evolved over time from that idea of a celebration of early American luck and fortitude (ignoring the dark side of the facts) into a more general, secular “Thanks” for all the good and plenty that we have in our lives.
“Maybe that is how YOU interpret the holiday, but that is not how it seems for much of the country.”
How the hell do YOU know? You don’t even LIVE here!
No, in fact, this is not simply “my” interpretation—it is widespread and pretty much the norm. Yes, the ROOT of the holiday is in that first year at Plymouth, but that’s it. Everyone I know who even acknowledges it (beyond having dinner, which pretty much everyone does, since we love to eat) treats it as a time to feel thankful for the good in their lives–their kids, their health, etc. It has little or nothing to do with the old Pilgrim story.
And what the freaking HELL, anyway, Cym? The Pilgrims didn’t do that much damage to the Indians locally. They didn’t stray terribly far, in fact, beyond Plymouth, except for the “outcast” colonies set up in what was later Rhode Island and Connecticut. The REAL theft and mistreatment of Indian tribes occurred much later and by entirely different groups of colonists and immigrants. So your argument is STILL very low on relevance.
AND besides—YOUR country is STEEPED in blood and murder and violence—TELL me you don’t still have some holidays or other that don’t reflect this. You may not even know or acknowledge their roots—but surely they exist.
Enough with the self-righteousness, seriously.
“I take it you still eat turkey at TG?”
What the hell has THAT got to do with it? Traditions carry on for all kinds of reasons—what, I’m not supposed to eat turkey now because it was eaten at the first Thanksgiving? In fact my understanding is that there’s no proof that turkey was consumed then. It was a LATER add on to the tradition and legend… so you’re STILL barking up the wrong tree.
“Although the holiday may have adapted, it still has its roots in genocide, like it or not.”
No, in fact it does not. That’s historical and cultural ignorance speaking… and less becoming coming from YOU, a foreigner, who doesn’t know all the facts. And worse when you’re all holier-than-you about it, when you come from an island, a continent, and a history of murder, maiming, violence, injustice and misery.
Get off it, pal.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
No turkey sandwiches on Friday? I cry bullshit!
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Cym, Yeah, many countries in Africa now have their independence but I wouldn’t pat myself on the back. When Britain gave them their independence they just took off and left them with nothing. No help to form their own competent governments. They just disserted them. Now look at them. At least America tries to help financially and politically after they go to war with someone.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:44 pm
“n America, there is not a one party government system representing a small number of people”
Are you suggesting we have a single party system? Please clarify.
“Also “a significant % believes in the creation story and deny global warming?” Are you serious? Have you ever been to America”
Yes I have, but that isnt where I have my information from. Polls from CBS say just 13% of americans believe god is not involved in evolution. A USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll in 2005 stated that 88% of americans believe in “creation or god directed evolution” Only 12% believe in random Darwinian evolution
As to climate change, your previous president made his stance perfectly clear. We as an international community are hoping things change with Obama. In the American Climate Values survey conducted by Eco-America in January 2008, only a small minority (18%) believes climate change is harmful and caused by mankind.
So which part of my 238 was wrong?
Randall
“AND besides—YOUR country is STEEPED in blood and murder and violence—TELL me you don’t still have some holidays or other that don’t reflect this. You may not even know or acknowledge their roots—but surely they exist.”
My dear, irrational, obsessive angry shouty, if-you-dont-agree-with-me-you’re-wrong Randall. To the best of my knowledge, the national holidays in the UK are Christmas, and Easter…o and Whit Monday which is the holiday celebrated the day after Pentecost. This is backed up by my perusing at my calender. You are right. We celebrate our bloody dominion of the world!
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:46 pm
“They just disserted them”
Yup. We ran off. In fact, in some instances we had to be airlifted out. We were bankrupt after WWII, and many of those countries fought us out, it wasnt a democratic decision.
If we had stayed to put in government etc, we would have been massacred…and they STILL wouldnt have got any infrastructure.
“At least America tries to help financially and politically after they go to war with someone.”
Yes. Because THEY CAN AFFORD TO. You know practically zero about the break up of the empire, so don’t comment on it, there’s a good chap.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Cymbubblemaster:
“Your ENTIRE first paragraph is erroneous.”
Uh, no… in fact it is not. I’m not making this shit up or just pulling it out of my ass. I KNOW my ancient history QUITE WELL (I was thoroughly schooled in it if you recall) and know my archeology nearly as well. The people whom we know historically as the Celts were NOT the original inhabitants of the British Isles, having come there round about 600 to 500 BC. Don’t hand me your Welsh nationalistic propaganda. It isn’t science.
“It was receieved wisdom that the celts wiped out the original inhabitants of Cymru and by extension, Britain,”
No, it isn’t “received wisdom” (whatever the hell that’s meant to be) it is in fact scientifically PROVEN that the Celts are NOT the same people who inhabited the British isles prior to about 600BC or so. THOSE people are the original Britons whose language we do not know (nor probably ever will) and whose culture we know only so much of—and it was THEY who were responsible for the building of Stonehenge, etc.
“but evidence is coming to light that in fact, the majority of the modern Welsh population (and the British population as a whole) descends from migrants from the Iberian Peninsula during the Mesolithic era.”
Your confusing your facts as it happens.
AND this is an old story.
It’s in fact true that one theory of Celtic migration (and possibly origin) had it that they Celts came from Iberia—HOWEVER this is still NOT acceptably proven by archeology, though the case has gotten better. The Celts, however, are still also considered to have something to do with the so-called Urn or Beaker culture which was all over western Europe during the pre-Roman period. There is evidence of Celtic occupation in Iberia which MAY go back to the Mesolithic era, HOWEVER there is NO evidence that I’m aware of Celtic migration into Britain at that time—THAT migration is still presumed to have occurred much later… at the aforementioned date of about 600BC.
“The welsh are the closest to the original brittanic inhabitants of this nation.”
There is no actual scientific support for that statement. In point of fact the Welsh are Celts, and the Celts are NOT the people who originall inhabited Great Britain.
“You don’t know much about Welsh History.”
I’ll grant you I don’t know much about Welsh history in and of itself–but I know ANCIENT history like the back of my freakin’ proverbial hand, and I can tell you quite categorically that you are laboring under a misconception if you think the Celts were there in Britain first. They were not.
“It has been suggested that a celtic language was being spoken in Wales by about 700 BC, 200 years before we allegedly wiped out everyone in britain…”
A) 700 BC is NOT a date I’ve heard before—I’ve heard 600BC – 500BC. So another hundred years. Big whoop. All you’re saying is that I was right in the first place—the Celtic language first appears in Britain at about 600 BC, give or take some decades. This very likely means that the Celts were NOT THERE prior to this time anyway–or hadn’t you thought of that?
B) it is of course not merely down to language… there is no ARCHEOLOGICAL evidence to support the idea of earlier Celtic inhabitation of the island prior to that time. And in fact the archeological evidence strongly supports the view that the Celts were NOT there, since the culture BEFORE them was very different and this is reflected in their artifacts. The fact that there is clearly a different culture in situ in Britain, and that there is little or no evidence of a Celtic presence prior to that time (roughly 600BC) means that the Celts probably were not there.
They later come to almost completely replace the earlier culture however—which speaks to an invasion or mass migration… as I said, round about 600BC.
C) you are getting your hackles up ridiculously. I was tweaking you because you were being holier than thou about Thanksgiving… now it’s become an argument of Welsh honor. Please spare me. This is silly.
“Population genetics studies show that immigration into the british isles was slow and small scale,”
I have never once heard this—where is the evidence of this?
“not big enough to wipe out a culture, but large enough to modify an existing one.”
The last *I* was taught, the original British culture CEASED to be at about 600-500 BC and was almost TOTALLY replaced with the Celtic. We today know next to nothing about the original Britons—and THAT also speaks to a more sudden and widespread takeover.
““We might today know why and how Stonehenge and Avebury, et al, were built,” As it is, a new TimeTeam expedition has seemingly solved why stonehenge was built.”
I was speaking facetiously, of course, Cym. We’ve known all along that Stonehenge was in fact a temple with some astronomical alignments—it’s been obvious for a very long time.
“It is due to be shown this week and I shall keep you up to date. You don’t know much about English History”
Please, enough with that… in fact I DO know a great deal about English history and PARTICULARLY ancient history—of Britain and elsewhere. Stop trying to bait me—you ought to know enough by now not to make me angry. Neither of us would like it.
“Tone back the ad hom. This is a site for debate, not name calling.”
You’re being ridiculous. I called you out, as I said, for the Thanksgiving crap. I told you I’ve had my tongue in cheek—but I’m also telling you not to push me. I’ve always liked you, but I won’t stand for prattle, even from you. I’m in no mood for it these days, trust me.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:52 pm
In fact, british insolvency was only averted after a $3.5 billion loan from America (thanks btw) which was only repaid in 2006.
Under those conditions you expect us to set up infrastructure, when being forced out by guerilla armies? Get your head in the real world.
Britain adopted a policy of peaceful disengagement from its colonies once stable, non-Communist governments were available to transfer power to wherever possible. This was in stark contrast to other European colonial powers like France or Portugal,which waged costly and ultimately unsuccessful wars to keep their empires intact.
Even our wish to keep our territories out of communist hands was a failure. Hong Kong went back to the Chinese.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:57 pm
cym:
And don’t associate me with this Enigma clown. You know I don’t agree with him/her and in fact agree with you on that particular line of history.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:06 pm
“but I’m also telling you not to push me. I’ve always liked you, but I won’t stand for prattle, even from you. I’m in no mood for it these days, trust me”
My dear sir, tough talk counts for nothing online. It makes you look silly.
“The last *I* was taught”
O deary me…the last Crick and Watson were taught was that the structure of DNA was unknown. Theories change and modify. As a layman I will bow to those in possession of superior facts, but not those who say that what THEY were taught was final. When my supervisor was taught, the ryanodine receptor hadnt been discovered – now it is an integral protein in every cell.
“you ought to know enough by now not to make me angry. Neither of us would like it.”
Sorry Bruce.
Randall, you sound ridiculous. I know full well that, regardless of how you speak to me, I am NOT an idiot.
Do your worst. If that happens to be yet more ad hom then so be it – you wil make yourself look worse than you make me.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I am not associating you with Enigma; Enigma doesnt know his european history whereas you are at least moderately versed. I know where you stand, and I know that you are an intelligent, thoughtful individual. I merely ask that you act like it and dont aggressively attack anyone who doesn’t agree with you.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:10 pm
As we disagree, however, I will email a colleague of mine. He is a Welsh History graduate, so should be able to settle our little dispute. Unless I am mistaken, his dissertation was in ancient welsh history. Watch this space.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:12 pm
oouchan:
I don’t really care if you just eat turkey on Thanksgiving or if you also give thanks to all the gods of Mount Olympus, or if you just ignore the whole thing and sleep the day away.
Look, I agree—a measured amount of guilt about our mistreatment of native American cultures is a good thing—we did wrong by them and we ought to face it. Few do.
But if you’re going to carry this through logically, then give up your land to a native family or something. Because that’s the only way any of it actually makes sense.
Look at this way… America as a nation has and has HAD a LOT of faults. America as a concept, however, is not so bad–in fact, I’d assume you’d agree with me that it’s probably one of the best ideas that mankind has ever coughed up. (i.e., our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence and all that they entail as a philosophy of governance and liberty).
So okay, fuck the Pilgrims. I never liked ‘em anyway. And I’m not proud of my country’s behavior throughout its history—but I celebrate the Fourth of July because to me there’s TWO Americas—the one we don’t like, the greedy, ultra-religious, me first and gimme gimme America—and the other America which is conceptual in nature—which is about individual liberty and dignity. I celebrate the latter.
Thanksgiving is the same way. I don’t do anything, myself, other than eat a meal and feel thankful for whatever I’ve got—my health, my kids… and living in a fairly stable, modern culture with all the happy conveniences. Like all human history, some of that was paid for in the blood of others in the past. But we ALL share that common dark side to our modern circumstances.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
enigma isn’t my name so you don’t have to capitalize it. I don’t associate myselves with any of you either. Both of you (Cym and Randall) also proved that neither of you know your history 100% as well. Although your comments/ debate are interesting you two can go back and forth all day about nonsense such as Thanksgiving (really?) but you are not going to convince each other that one of you are correct.
I’m sure you both feel the need to express your opinions but it’s a waste of time. You’re just arguing.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Apparantly you should read Stephen Oppenheimer’s book The Origins of the British. I have linked to an article where I got some of my information from. My friend is trying to dig out some papers for you if interested. I do understand that a single article is not something to base an entire theory on, but it should be enough to whet your appetite, and hopefully look into the migration of these isles with a fresh outlook.
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?search_term=oppenheimer&id=7817
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:24 pm
cym, honest to god, you are trying my patience. What good is my fearful reputation here if you ignore it blow the whole game?
“My dear sir, tough talk counts for nothing online. It makes you look silly.”
Don’t make me come over there.
““The last *I* was taught”
“O deary me…the last Crick and Watson were taught was that the structure of DNA was unknown.”
OH CYM FOR CHRISSAKES!
I went to college in the goddamn EIGHTIES and early NINETIES, not a hundred years ago! AND I’ve kept up with the journals and discoveries, though I freely admit that my specialty was always MUCH more near-eastern archeology and ancient history—-but I’ve kept up fairly well with recent research and findings regarding Western Europe as well.
So please stop. Archeology and history are NOT sciences like physics, biology and chemistry where new findings pop up regularly and overturn earlier theorems. They’re much slower to change and develop, and I have not heard ONE WORD about earlier Celtic inhabitation of the British Isles than roughly 600BC. Much less the Mesolithic era. If there had been, I’m reasonably confident I’d know about it.
“Theories change and modify.”
They do, but as I said–NOT that fast in archeology and history. Not so fast that I’d be out of the loop simply because I’ve been out of college since about 1993. I didn’t immediately crawl under a rock once I obtained my Masters. For crying out loud.
“As a layman I will bow to those in possession of superior facts,”
BOW TO ME!!!
“but not those who say that what THEY were taught was final.”
I never said “final.” I said “the last I knew.” And that was a weighty statement, yes–because I know a lot. But it is not the same as “final.”
“When my supervisor was taught, the ryanodine receptor hadnt been discovered – now it is an integral protein in every cell.”
good for the ryanodine receptor.
““you ought to know enough by now not to make me angry. Neither of us would like it.”
“Sorry Bruce.”
Jesus H. Christ, that’s more like it.
“Randall, you sound ridiculous. I know full well that, regardless of how you speak to me, I am NOT an idiot.”
I dunnnnnno… I think you’ve been added to the mailing list……
“Do your worst. If that happens to be yet more ad hom then so be it – you wil make yourself look worse than you make me.”
Not to me I won’t.
“I am not associating you with Enigma; Enigma doesnt know his european history whereas you are at least moderately versed.”
MODERATELY??!!! HOW DARE YOU!!!!
“I know where you stand, and I know that you are an intelligent, thoughtful individual.”
I am.
“I merely ask that you act like it and dont aggressively attack anyone who doesn’t agree with you.”
No. I don’t wanna.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:30 pm
259 Randall: I certainly do agree with you, dear. On many occasions I do with your posts.
I have given much to the Native tribes…I live in Arizona so I have close relations with them. America certainly has faults just like any other country and yes they have done great things as well. I choose not to give thanks just because I don’t feel it is needed or warranted. However..just because I can…I do celebrate the 4th of July. Now, how’s that for ironic?
And just for clarification…being a gypsy myself and seeing what my family had to go through, I sympathize more with the native indians. That is why, to me, it’s more a personal preference.
enigma: That’s what we do around here. Argue and debate issues back and forth all day. If you want to see a really off topic list, check out the one below. It’s all in fun….so enjoy.
http://listverse.com/2008/09/14/your-view-should-creationism-be-taught-in-schools/
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:34 pm
“In America, there is not a one party government system representing a small number of people”
You are yet to address this rather ambiguous comment. As it is, the Westminster system is widely used. The following is taken from Wiki, for ease:
“The Westminster system is a democratic parliamentary system of government modelled after the British government (the Parliament of the United Kingdom). This term comes from the Palace of Westminster, the seat of the UK Parliament.
The system is a series of procedures for operating a legislature. It is used, or was once used, in the national legislatures and subnational legislatures of most Commonwealth and ex-Commonwealth nations upon being granted responsible government, beginning with the first of the Canadian provinces in 1848 and the six Australian colonies between 1855 and 1890.”
Countries that use either the W.S or a variation thereon include Australia, Canada, India and Japan.
Our own system has three main parties – Labour, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats – and a myriad of smaller parties such as the Greens, Respect, UKIP and the fascist BNP. There are also parties that operate more primarily in Wales, Scotland and Ireland such as Plaid Cymru, SNP and Sinn Fein respectively
“also proved that neither of you know your history 100% as well”
Are you insinuating ANYONE can know all their history 100%, because if you are, you are sadly misinformed.
“but it’s a waste of time”
Who are you to tell us how to spend out time. If I want to bitch about Randall all day then I will.
Randall
“America as a concept, however, is not so bad–in fact,”
I am finding myself agreeing with you, in principal at least.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
oouchan:
Well again, bear in mind, I was just being a smart ass. I wasn’t REALLY saying you ought to “give thanks.”
I’m just saying, Eh. It’s a holiday. Life is too short to worry about such things. I’d rather DO something for native Americans than not eat turkey on Thanksgiving, as if that did any good or meant anything one way or another.
But to each his own.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Cym:
common, you gotta admit… that last post of mine to you was pretty damn funny.
I let you off easy cuz I like you. Watch it next time.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:40 pm
I said at LEAST moderately versed. It is impossible for you to be WELL versed in the histories of each individual European countries…its impossible for anyone too.
“What good is my fearful reputation”
It was useless to begin with, as I for one was never afraid of you…and never will be.
“and I have not heard ONE WORD about earlier Celtic inhabitation of the British Isles than roughly 600BC”
Obviously you havent read the link I posted to you. Just because YOU havent heard of something doesnt mean it hasnt happened.
Now I will let you rant back at me. Wake me when you are done.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:40 pm
265 Randall: Agreed. Life is too short to worry about stuff. I will agree also that you are a smart ass but despite that, I still like you!
Did a truce just get declared here? Or is it the calm before the storm?
Just wondering.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:40 pm
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:45 pm
I meant between you and cym?
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:51 pm
oouchan, surely a truce is merely the calm before the next storm?
Me and Randall are polarised, intelligent, principled, loud and almost arrogant characters.
There will almost CERTAINLY be another war between us.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Or do you want to fight about that Randall?
BRING IT ON
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Well then, cym…give me a minute to grab some popcorn.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
eugh…just read my 267
Riddled with grammatical errors! I am appalled.
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:08 pm
274 cym: I am appalled! You have just lost 5 points from segues perfect parsing and gracious grammar club. You lost only 1/2 point for sullied spelling, since leaving out apostrophes is, in your case, a small error.
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Randall, sadly, goes home now to his beach and his boat and his neighbors generous with their gin; I have no more time for arguing and fisticuffs with Welsh loudmouths from across the sea. Instead I bid a good night to all Celtic a-holes the world over… it’s after 10 there, now, so go to beddy and get your rest. I’m off to enjoy the sun–which is that big bright ball in sky which you only see about 3 days out of every 12.
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Segue, too much texting has had a derogatory effect on my placing (if at all) of the mighty and sacred apostrophe!
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Randall. First, what is this thing you call ‘the sun’?
Second, the term ‘welsh loudmouth’ is a compliment! I’m glad to see we are back on good terms.
(As it is the last five days have had 25C (77F) days with more than 12 hours of sunshine!)
June 2nd, 2009 at 6:43 pm
239 enigma June 2nd 2009: Seriously, the welsh are ugly people
****
Everything *enigma* said thereafter had to be taken with the same intelligence and good planning as this comment.
In other words, as soon as one sees his/hers/its nick on a post, it’s time to skip to the next one.
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:17 pm
“Seriously, the welsh are ugly people”
Maybe we are. But since when does looks affect our capability to PWN someone in an argument – as I have all over your posts.
BTW I am claiming a PWNing of you as you have tactfully not addressed ANY of my counterpoints, and ignored the questions I asked you enigma-with-a-lower-case-e
I may be ugly, but you are stupid. I know which I would prefer to be.
A petty ad hom, but I can live with it.
June 2nd, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Darn you all and your access to computers at work. You all have moved on to yet another history lesson and here I am doggedly stuck back in the 230s…
First off, my apologies for the ridiculously huge typo. Meant to write 1000 BCE and not ‘10000 BCE’. Perhaps not evident yet through LV but old habits die hard and I’ve been conditioned to use commas for numbers five digits or greater which this ‘10000’ does not posses.
Re: Supposedly Negroid features of Olmec basalt heads
Pfft… Randall, you must think I’m some kind of idiot if you truly think I believe in rubbish like that. No, I wasn’t referring to that flimsy argument when I referred to art evidence. There’s no assurance that liberties weren’t taken these statues (not saying stylized but rather, changes in artistic technique and medium used during its creation and, of course, subjective interpretation by the viewer). Stereotypically Negroid features don’t apply to every African region. The Nubians are as far away from these stereotypically Negroid features as any African can get. Besides… high cheekbones, flat nose, full lips… I could very well be discussing the indigenous Americans or even the Mongoloid features of my Asian and Polynesian ancestry (yes, I said it. Those gigantic, brutish things could very well resemble me). There are far too many issues with that feeble argument to take it seriously.
Evidence I was referring to:
- Olmec Stelas containing non-Olmec references
- Cotton of African origins creating a unique hybrid with cotton found in the Americas. Gourds commonly used as argument can easily survive a trans-Atlantic voyage on their own but cotton is far more fragile.
Not really sure what’s being argued here, Randall. In no way do I believe Ancient Africans were advanced enough to establish a trade route with the Olmecs or to even intentionally set out to find the Olmecs and it appears you think the same way. I guess our major difference is I find it hard to believe this civilization, as vastly influential as it was, was completely isolationist. I’d be at a severe disadvantage to argue specifics since it’s been a number of years since I ventured into this particular area. As it is right now, separating fact from fiction is rather difficult since the focus of this topic discussion in lecture halls (and in the brief, aggravating few minutes I just spent trying to find the actual names of these plants. I vaguely recall a flower as well but can’t find it online) is not on finding and understanding evidence but rather whether one chooses to take the racially-driven Afrocentric or pro-Native American viewpoint. I had taken art history courses in both subjects and while they both tackled the subject and supplied quite a lot of information, they always veered the conversation back to why one is superior (or inferior) to the other.
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:00 am
gabi319:
I’d love to believe that there was some kind of contact between the Old World and the New in the pre-Columbian epoch, not because I believe that the Old had to influence the New—I find it offensive that some people go around thinking that kind of thing—but simply because it would serve to illustrate even more how our ancient ancestors–of all backgrounds–were pretty damn smart and could manage themselves much better than we think.
Sadly, however, the evidence just isn’t there that such contact occurred.
I’m glad to find you weren’t basing your thoughts on the depiction of Olmec heads. Sorry, but since you weren’t specific in your original statement, I went for the most obvious argument that the pseudo-science types go for. (I debated some years ago—heatedly—with Robert Schoch about this, as it happens–he includes such things in HIS reasons for believing there was such contact).
However, the evidence you DO bring up is, sadly, hardly very much less flimsy. It isn’t that it might not have significance–it might; but the problem, as with similar evidence indicating contact with the Asian world at that time, is that while intriguing, it leaves a logical hole. Namely this: we can say that there is possible evidence of a very singular nature for some kind of contact between Africa and the Americas and/or Asia and the Americas in the pre-Columbian era. You mention cotton. Another argument from the Asian side is about peanuts–supposedly mummified peanuts have been found in China that pre-date their “discovery” by Europeans in the New World (peanuts are native to South America) though I gather this is by no means clear-cut and fully determined—and there is the fact that both Chinese and pre-Columbian cultures worked in jade, and have similar artistic motifs. (The argument that since the native Americans were descended from Sibero-Asian forebears, it might be expected that there would be similarities of culture between them and the Chinese is useless; the very latest date we can presume native Americans to have arrived IN the Americas is about 13,000 BC or so, and that’s pushing it, we know now, because evidence has been building that the Clovis Culture was NOT the first, and IT dates to that time–but even if it were so, that’s a LONG time for cultural similarities to remain filtered down, since the artifacts people raise questions about date from several *thousand* years later… moreover, native Americans were SIBERO-Asian in origin, which is merely part of the baseline for all Asian peoples (as far as we know—in other words, they came from a similar stock of people that also produced the people who later became “Chinese,” but the divergence is pretty deep and old, older even [by far] than the divergence of the various Indo-European tribes into the people who became Europeans, Iranians, and Indians).
ANYWAY… getting back to this question of similarities and individual things like peanuts and cotton—the problem is that these are used to suggest a cultural and perhaps even trade-related connection. But therein lies the problem—every cultural exchange we know of–however limited–results in exchanges of MORE than just one or two isolated products or motifs. In other words, if, say, the Olmecs had somehow had some kind of sustained contact–however brief (it would HAVE to be sustained for any kind of real evidence to be left behind) with Africa on the one hand, or China on the other (both have been argued) then why do we only see small, isolated bits of “evidence” for this? Why is it only peanuts and cotton and jade, and little, if anything else? It isn’t even as if jade was nonexistent in the New World. It’s just a cultural parallel. But if that DID come as an influence from China—why then were there NO OTHER influence introduced? Why no more major products? No great exchange of crops and technology? No evidence of actual trade? Why is the apparent impact on BOTH cultures so ridiculously small? Why is it limited to only these singular items?
It just doesn’t follow, or make much sense.
There isn’t even evidence that SHOULD be there, if there was such contact–rats, for instance… unknown in the New World until post-Columbian times. Any contact with China SURELY would have brought them over if it was at all sustained enough to leave an influence… the same could be said for Africa, one supposes.
Finally, there is no evidence that I know of that the Olmecs or any of the other high civilizations of the New World were accomplished sailors or had any knowledge of advanced ocean-crossing technology.
There’s little bits and pieces that are intriquing; I find them interesting myself, and I keep an open mind. But as yet none of it amounts to any real kind of proof. And we may NEVER know, because we’ve had 500 years of cultural contamination underway in the Americas, now, and that makes it a great deal harder to prove that isolated instances or artifacts are indicative of anything.
June 3rd, 2009 at 10:21 am
Randall: I’m going to do a Cym..sigh..Thor Hyerdahl’s Kon Tiki raft with a square sail reached Easter Island from South America..RaI failed because of using dry reeds, RaII reached the Americas. It was the Scots who painted themselves blue. The Polynesians used sea currents to navigate, and I’ve sailed many different craft, from a 65 ft ocean racer to a 110 ft Baltic Trader, originally a three master converted to a two master gaff rigged, through the Med. It had a nine foot draft and no keel..needless to say it was an interesting adventure..and yes I’ve visited the Kon Tiki museum in Oslo, also saw RaI on it’s trek through Morrocco.
June 3rd, 2009 at 10:33 am
lostatsea:
“I’m going to do a Cym”
Sadly you’re even less up to it than Cym is.
“Thor Hyerdahl’s Kon Tiki raft with a square sail reached Easter Island from South America..RaI failed because of using dry reeds, RaII reached the Americas.”
I never said that Hyerdahl failed completely on every venture. I said his ventures ran the gamut from total failure to results of questionable value. That he made it is a testimony to his tenacity and seamanship. But this did NOT prove that ancient people’s were capable of such a voyage—it merely proved that it was not utterly impossible on the basis of boat-building skills from the time. That is FAR from proving or even suggesting that it was actually done, however.
“It was the Scots who painted themselves blue.”
It was the CELTS who painted themselves blue. The Scots are Celts (in part). They are known for having done it because of that movie with Mel Gibson, but in fact Julius Caesar mentions the practice in his annals about his brief invasion of the British Isles, and those people were NOT Scots at the time, they were CELTS.
“The Polynesians used sea currents to navigate,”
Not ONLY ocean currents. They had several skills and tools for making their journeys. They do NOT rely merely on ocean currents for navigation. If you are a sailor as you claim, you’d know that would be a foolhardy venture.
June 3rd, 2009 at 10:52 am
Randall: It was the Romans who called them the ‘Scotti’.
Thor used the Humbolt Current for most of the 3,770 nautical mile journey using indigenous materials consistant with the ancient ways. I will research the ancient Polynesian sailors as I forget where I learned it. There was also a mention of North American Indians using twin ourigger canoes to traverse the ocean.
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:15 am
At that time scotland was not united – it was made up of warring factions, including picts and scots (who eventually settled in the area we now call scotland)
It was CELTIC culture that included painting their naked bodies for war. The difference is, after conquest by the Romans, the southern celts (welsh, cornish etc) joined the roman army to be taught military skills they could use against the raiding celts from the north. It is a misconception that the celtic nation was united – it was a divided warring set of tribes that took centuries to unite
I think thats all correct – I did not take scottish history
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:39 am
286.cym: The MacDonalds still hate the Campbells!! Massacre of Glencoe.
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:43 am
lostatsea:
“Scotti” WAS a term used by the Romans, but it applied to the Celts generally and to the Celts who came to the British isles from Ireland specifically, and was only MUCH LATER transferred to the people who we know as “the Scots.” In other words, the name was applied to them but in actuality had little to do with them originally. The point is still mine; it was the Celts who painted themselves blue and the Scots may have LATER continued the practice, but that is all.
Heyerdahl may very well have used strictly the Humboldt current, but you ought to know that this is NOT a reliable method for regular ocean crossings. Besides which the Humboldt current flows along, essentially, the coast of South America. This allows for, then, to an extent, a modified form of coastal hugging. This does NOT apply to using currents to cross actual tracts of ocean BETWEEN continents—i.e., from Africa to South America or vice versa.
It isn’t that a current can’t take you places. But it’s one thing to follow a current that runs along a coast. It’s another to attempt to use a current to cross an ocean directly, and to expect to land in place, finally, where you want to go. That is not “navigation.”
I know of no reports of North American Indians using outrigger canoes to cross the ocean—I’ve never heard of this. Polynesians did.
Of course, the native Americans had to have SOME way of migrating to the islands of the Caribbean, as some of these were inhabited at the time Columbus arrived. But again, crossing a sea in an island hopping maneuver is NOT the same as traversing an entire, empty ocean. We know the Polynesians managed it somehow through utilizing the various skills and tools they had at their command, but there is no evidence of native Americans having knowledge of the same skills and tools.
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
There was no such thing as a Celtic nation. That is a grouping for historical convenience. The Celts were but a bunch of tribes.
However, there was such a thing as a common Celtic culture.
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:54 am
Randall:
Ocean Currents; http://www.galapagosonline.com/nathistory/Oceanography/Currents.html
While the Humbolt hugs the shore it flows westerly from Peru and reaches the Galpagos Islands.
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:55 am
Galapogas
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 am
can someone brief me on what is being said here? shoot me if you want but i can’t seem to find the beginning of this argument… either that or i’m too lazy but would be appreciated if someone did… like i said, shoot me for saying this if you want.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
I could be wrong, but i saw a scientific theory that allows boats (yes small boats) to traverse the oceans.
Whilst currents and all that are a fine addition to this argument, may I entertain people with the fact that the Ocean is not just a huge chunk of giant waves. Throughout the oceans, huge seas of large seaweed forests do occur (such as the Sargasso Sea)… these seaweeds calm the oceans above and allow for some easy traversing. In fact, they also allow for some easy fishing. There is a theory that these seaweed forests allowed people to traverse oceans (though not the polynesians… they did that by island hoping and boat).
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
I also saw a doco on a theory that may confirm contact between the Chinese and American-Indians. Geographically, this isn’t impossible. I guess any contact would most possibly come down from the Alaskan coast though.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
lostatsea:
Regardless, there’s a big difference between following a current like the Humboldt and accidentally getting where you want to go, and expecting to hop on a cross-ocean current and expect to find your way to the same place in the Americas OR, from the Americas to Africa, Asia, or Europe.
RECALL: I am NOT saying that this feat couldn’t be done accidentally, under the right conditions—but reliably, and repeatedly WITHOUT any form of navigation, and without a means to sail close to the wind, and using very primitive ship-building technology? Not likely. And we have no evidence for it having been done. We have only the suggestion that it COULD have been done, that it was not outside of the realm of possibility.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
archangel:
See my response to gabit at 282 regarding pre-columbian contact with China. It isn’t impossible, but the evidence for it is scant and debatable.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
295: Heyerdahl proved it was possible without navigational aids and with a square sail..check my link for world current charts.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
archangel:
“There is a theory that these seaweed forests allowed people to traverse oceans (though not the polynesians… they did that by island hoping and boat).”
Yes, I would imagine the Polynesians crossed the Pacific by boat. I’m hard pressed to think of another way of doing it, air travel being out of the question.
I have not heard of this theory involving seawood forests, but the simple fact is that the ocean is a HELL of a lot bigger than that, and even the Sargasso sea is nothing but a small fraction of it. I don’t see how isolated pockets of seawood, no matter how large, could allow anyone to safely travese the ocean.
It isn’t only a matter of “waves,” archangel. It’s a matter of wind, currents, boat-building technology and navigation. The danger of the ocean itself is only a small part of the problem. The larger part of the problem is that you have to know where you’re going and you have to be able to do it in a reasonable amount of time (so you don’t die of starvation or thirst along the way) and get there in one piece without your ship being riddled by toredo worms and whatnot. AND then you have to have the means to get back—which means you can’t simply use the same winds if you sailed downwind on a run, in the first place—unless you have sail technology which allows for sailing close to the wind—which to the best of our knowledge, no ancient peoples had.
ACCIDENTAL excursions across the seas are not impossible and may have happened. But reliable, sustained, direct cross-ocean travel for the purposes of trade, etc., is something altogether different.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:37 pm
lostatsea:
Heyerdahl did it ONCE without charts and a square sail. ONCE. And correct me if I’m wrong, but he only went one way, did he not?
How do you get back, sailing practically AGAINST the wind on only a square sail? If you could manage it at all (I’m sure in time you’d make it somehow) you’d probably be dead by the time the boat reached your destination.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm
I have read Kon Tiki two or three times and watched the docudrama multiple times – I’m sorry, but I honestly don’t think it proved anything.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Randall: He set out to prove that people from South America could have done it and also with the RA voyages from Africa to the Americas. Strange that the Incas used a similar design on lake Titicaca.
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:12 pm
289 – thank you for repeating everything I said in my post 286.
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm
lostatsea:
I´m reading the article of Thor Heyerdahl and his many experiments on Wiki (yes, I know, evil wiki but I´m short on time). Apparently, Ra2 was built by Bolivian boatmen from the Titicaca because the original Ra using materials from Africa was a complete failure.
Now, my question is: can we really say that ancient peoples from Africa (Egyptians, etc) could have sailed to America if the experiment done with their local materials was a failure? If only the LA ship was able to succesfully cross the ocean, wouldnt it be more suitable to think that we were the sea-going peoples and that we “discovered” Africa?
On another note (and here I might only be citing another Wiki weakness), the article only mentioned the construction materials of the boat and the “great diversity” of the crew. It does not, however, mention what sailing methods and instruments were used. Did they have modern equipment to guide them and help them along? Just a question…
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
303.GTT: Remember this was almost 40 yrs ago and my memory is not as sharp as it was in my 20s. The reason as I remember, was, that Ra I was built by Egyptians who falsly thought that the reeds should be dry. Since similar boats were found at Titicaca and he brought the builders to Egypt to build Ra II. As for navigation aids..I don’t remember.. however as in the Kon Tiki voyage other than a transmitter I’m sure he only used what was available historically.
You might try his museum in Oslo, they have both craft and the notes on the voyages. Hope that helps.
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:53 pm
303.GTT: Forgot to add..these reed boats are shown on ancient Egyptian heirloglyphs and so predate Incan.
June 3rd, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Would all of you shut up!! Grown men and women debating on all day on a website. Do any of you have jobs?
June 3rd, 2009 at 5:37 pm
306..Nope…retired!
June 4th, 2009 at 8:04 am
Hahaha, Segues you make me laugh.
Cymmeariver87,
Yes you are real smart. You know your British history really well. You don’t know American history but at least you know yours. In fact you are so smart that you spend everyday, all day, debating on a website about history and Thanksgiving, among other crap. You are a 40 something year old who argues with people on a website where 64.5% are under the age of 20. (According to LV). Total of 96% are under 40 so you are just outside the target demographic zone. Why don’t you leave your parent’s basement for once and actually interact with people. I know it can be hard for you but it’s about time you talk face to face with someone. But since your intelligence is the only thing you are proud of, which is the reason you hide behind a computer, then do whatever makes you happy.
June 4th, 2009 at 8:15 am
lostatsea:
The Egyptians were NOT sailors—they had no seagoing traditions whatsoever. They were great at utilizing the Nile, (which is what the reed boats were for) but had nothing to do with travel in the Mediterranean or any other large bodies of water. When they required it, they hired it out–to the Phoenicians or the Greeks.
Again, there’s a big difference between open-ocean navigation and river and lake navigation. As a sailor you should know this.
June 4th, 2009 at 8:25 am
308:
‘outside the target demographic zone’? cym’s younger than me and I’m 25. LOL
Fact is, it’s a comment board that encourages discussion and/or debate and nothing is safe from an argument. I do enjoy that (most of the time) the discussion is of mid-to-high caliber academic conversation, of which cym does a fair job contributing his knowledge. So far, I’ve seen none of that from you. Come on…that wasn’t even quality ad hom. At least aim for that if you can’t obtain the ‘intellectual conversationalist’ criteria.
You complain that we’re wasting time debating history and Thanksgiving, among other crap… but we weren’t the ones sitting in our parents’ basement spending the day WATCHING other people debate history and Thanksgiving, among other crap. I know it can be hard for you but it’s about time you talk face to face with someone. But since your lack-luster ad hom is the only thing you are proud of, which is the reason you hide behind a computer, then do whatever makes you happy.
June 4th, 2009 at 8:48 am
309.Randall: As a modern sailor, I agree..however we can only surmise the ability of the ancients. I dove many wrecks with the aid of Loran and can use a sextant.
Boats have been a major part of Egyptian culture from the earliest times. The topography of Egypt, heavily influenced by the Nile River, made transportation by boat the most efficient method for regional communication. Ancient Egyptians were also seafarers who sailed the Mediterranean and Red Seas.
June 4th, 2009 at 9:45 am
lostatsea:
You’ve just openly contradicted me. And sorry, but ancient history is a specialty of mine.
NO, the ancient Egyptians were NOT accomplished seafarers who had any kind of a presence in the Mediterranean. Of course they did venture into it, yes, but as a rule they were not known for it. They DID ply the Nile and the Red Sea, but as already established there’s a big difference between river navigation and open water sailing. And in the case of the Red Sea, the Egyptians were strictly coat-huggers. AND when they ventured into the Med, it was the same there–strict coast-hugging.
You keep trying to work little exceptions into this so you can keep your argument alive, but it won’t work. The Egyptians simply were not known for any kind of prowess in open-water sailing. For that matter even the Greeks and Phoenicians and later the Romans kept to coast-hugging as much as possible; they knew how dangerous open-water sailing was and how difficult it was to be accurate in terms of navigation outside of visible land. They could manage it, and often did—but when it was unnecessary, they kept to the coasts.
RIVER boats have been a major part of Egyptian culture from the earliest times—barges, river reed boats and the like. NOT open water vessels. The Egyptians did not trust the open sea nor did they truck with it much. When they have need of crossing the Mediterranean, they usually employed sailors of other cultures to do it for them. There are reports of Egyptian diplomatic missions sent to Crete and other parts of the Near East during the Middle Kingdom, and more often than not, the Egyptians employed Aegean and Phoenician ships to transport these diplomats from place to place when needed.
Later, when the Egyptian Pharoah Necco wanted the continental coast of Africa surveyed, he hired out Phoenician ships to do this, and they were the first humans we know of who circumnavigated Africa. Not Egyptians–even though it was an Egyptian pharoah who ordered this done. He instead hired Phoenicians to do it.
We CAN only surmise the abilities of the ancients, yes. They didn’t document everything they knew or could accomplish, and when they did the documents have been lost to us. But based on what we KNOW, cross-oceanic journeys were almost certainly beyond their capabilities. They were CERTAINLY beyond the capability of the Egyptians, who were comfortable with small and short voyages and river navigation, but were daunted by the open sea.
June 4th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
313 enigma: Here’s another top ten list website. Probably a little better. They actually take off any comments that are disrespectful. It weeds out the Trolls!
****
You better hurry on over.
June 4th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
not all Mexican Cokes are made with sugar anymore, read the labels. A lot of the ones around here in central Texas use hfcs now.
June 4th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
“Cymmeariver87@
It seems that you have tried to be clever and play on “cry me a river” actually saying “Keye me a river” That would be witty if my screename was not pronounce “coom-rye-egg-bach-gen” Fail.
“You are a 40 something year old who argues with people on a website where 64.5% are under the age of 20. (According to LV). Total of 96% are under 40 so you are just outside the target demographic zone.”
Where on EARTH did you get the idea that I am 40 from? I am 21, and a student at Cardiff University, just finishing my professional placement. This also proves I don’t live in my parent’s basement. When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me. And in this case it has been spectucular watching you make an arse out of yourself.
Interact with others? I play rugby for my Uni, sing in a Male Voice choir, play football with my flatmates and go to work. I interact plenty thank you.
Yes I am proud of my intelligence – it allows me to pwn trolls like you
You fail mate. You cannot debate me properly as you lack to intelligence and skills – which is blatantly obvious. You can’t even insult someone properly!
If this other website is so good then go troll on that one…unless you have already been removed from all the boards…After all, you have been very disrespectful here.
Now off you toddle.
June 4th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Does it hurt your pride that you have been pwn’d by a 21 year old student? Does it? Awwww…there there.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:53 am
cym:
Nice beat down, kid.
The prof in the office next to mine runs the local rugby team…. he’s tried to enlist me a few times. But I *am* over 40, and fear A) grievous injury and B) making an ass out of myself.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:02 am
@ Randall :
Funny how you dont fear making an ass of yourself here in the forum!!! lol…
I’m kidding… its a joke… no need to get offensive!
June 5th, 2009 at 6:08 am
@ Travis:
Crap! You took my line!
(Randall….sorry, no ill intentions…but you did leave yourself wide open for that)
June 5th, 2009 at 6:33 am
312.Randall:
Prior to the New Kingdom, Egypt’s navy was probably made up mostly of ships and boats that served a dual purpose, operating as commercial vessels when not utilized for war. We know most about the navy during the New Kingdom, when there was considerable activity, including actual sea battles. Yet even then, the “navy” was not seen as a separate service of the Egyptian military, and it was mostly used for amphibious operations.
During this period, Egypt’s navy was extensive. Despite the fact that Egypt had a long history of building boats, including large sea going vessels during the New Kingdom, we find, for example in the Amarna Letters, a request from to the King of Alashiya (Cyprus) to built ships for the Egyptian navy.
Bigger ships of seventy to eighty tons suited to long voyages became quite common (In size they might be compared to Columbus’s Santa Maria with a displacement of 100 tons or his smaller ships with about fifty).
June 5th, 2009 at 6:48 am
However, most Egyptian vessels were not suitable for sailing in the Mediterranean or the Red Sea. The idea of sea going ships was probably imported from the Levantine seaboard, and most likely from the region of Byblos. There was certainly a strong connection in the Egyptian minds between Byblos and naval activity, since the most common word for an Egyptian sea vessel was kbnt, literally meaning “Byblos-boat”.
Sea going boats used by both the Egyptians and their neighbors were relatively simple, consisting of a rectangular sail and usually one or two rudder oars. However, the Palermo Stone records the construction of a ship fifty two meters in length during the reign of king Sneferu of the 3rd Dynasty, and in the 5th Dynasty tomb of Ti at Saqqara, boat builders are depicted at work on another very large vessel. Sorry! forgot to add that to above..so while I partly agree with your coast hugging post, there does seem to be evidence of a greater scope of range. I would suggest we call it a draw since so much history has been destroyed by war and religious strife.
Hyerdahl simply set out to prove that a reed boat could have reached the Americas.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:56 am
317.cym: Damn! 21! Here I thought you were an old fart like me!
June 5th, 2009 at 7:04 am
lostatsea:
We can call it a draw, sure. It’s not that I’m OPPOSED to the notion of cross-oceanic, pre-columbian contact… I just say there’s no real evidence for it, and there’s some evidence *against* it.
Moreover, if someone DID manage it, the last people I’d expect it to be would be the Egyptians.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:24 am
324.Randall: This has been fun! Still, it is strange, the finding of cocaine in some mummies or the identical reed boats in SA. Not to mention the strange heiroglyphs in the temple of Osiris..I know it could be a palimpsest..however as Von Daniken posited and the Piri Riis map of Antartica (sans ice) seems to suggest, we might have been visited by aliens in our remote past. Just thought I’d throw that into the works! haha
June 5th, 2009 at 7:43 am
lostatsea:
Don’t ever raise Von Daniken in my presence again. The man is a first-class load and a total charlatan. Worse than Graham Hancock. A lot worse. He literally disgusts me.
Sorry, rage passing… taking pill. Ahhhh…. nice day. Sun is shining. Birds singing.
Anyway… my understanding is the cocaine thing was finally shown to be in error, though I can’t recall the precise details just now. As for the boats, eh. Cultural parallels happen, and let’s face it, there’s only so many ways to make a reed boat. But whenever someone tries to draw parallels between Egyptian and New World pre-Columbian cultures, they always have to be reminded—Egypt dates back to at least 2500 BC. The oldest New World cultures that exhibit these so-called “similarities” with Egypt date to about 1000 BC at the earliest, and others to much later… but the artifacts and architecture and cultural totems that people hold up as “proof” ALL date from much later, most to 300 BC and after, as I recall. Some well into the post-Christian era. Egypt by that time was long since finished as a separate nation. It just doesn’t make much sense.
June 5th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Randall:
Happy pills are nice! What about that Piri Riis map though? I disagree with your dating of Egypt, the Sphinx shows clear evidence of water erosion which would place it to an earlier time when the Sahara was a tropical forest, which if memory serves was in the region of 10,000 BC.
Hehe!
June 5th, 2009 at 8:50 am
327 lostatsea1: I saw a documentary on the water erosion of the Sphinx. It was amazing to see. Had to do with the way the erosion looked. Water leaves a wavy type erosion, while wind leaves a more linear one. Those on the Sphinx are wavy around the base.
However, some people claim that there was a pool or ditch around the Sphinx but as far as I know, there wasn’t evidence found of such a pool.
Interesting.
June 5th, 2009 at 9:09 am
328.oouchan: Small problem of gravity with that claim..unless they had many fountains on top! No evidence of that though.
Gee.. Randall and I were having such a good time though.
I even drove him to happy pill land hehe! I love being a shit disturber..sigh..
June 5th, 2009 at 11:06 am
lostatsea:
“What about that Piri Riis map though?”
Come on, “lost.” The Piri Riis map is total bullshit. It’s a hoax. A) there is not the slightest shred of proof that it dates from as early as it is said to date, though it is probably NOT modern. B) The claim that it accurately represents the coast of Antarctica UNDER the ice is also BS. There are similarities, but it is hardly a perfect match by any stretch. C) it shows South America and the supposed “Antarctica” melded together. This too, we know, is BS. And don’t give me some argument about it depicting the continents at some period when the ocean level was very low—I know of no geological studies which say SA and Antarctica were connected since—well, eons. D) the map also indicates other items that do NOT exist and never did–islands, etc.
No, no one’s ever fingered the true source of the map, but it’s pretty clear that it was someone’s imaginative idea of what might lie to the South of South America, and that’s it. The mere fact that there IS a continent down there, at the pole, was just coincidence.
“I disagree with your dating of Egypt, the Sphinx shows clear evidence of water erosion which would place it to an earlier time when the Sahara was a tropical forest, which if memory serves was in the region of 10,000 BC.”
UH, NO, lostatsea. I have debated Robert Shoch HIMSELF on this topic and others, so don’t even try it. Shoch HIMSELF says that he was largely misquoted and misrepresented about this claim of the Sphinx’s age–he actually guessed at it being almost exactly BETWEEN the traditional age and Anthony West’s and Graham Hancock’s preferred age of 10,000 (because they have a cockamamie theory about the pyramids and sphinx representing the constellation of Orion, and it could only be so oriented if the entire set-up was built at that time). Moreover, Shoch never took into account A) the nature of salts in the Giza region which would have contributed, with just a LITTLE water, to a great deal of erosion of limestone. B) The traditional date of the Sphinx’s construction—the one adhered to by Egyptologists–puts it in the third millenium BC… PLENTY of time for acidic water from FLASH FLOODS to have done lots of damage, even if they only happen VERY rarely. The limestone of the Sphinx is delicate and it’s positioning makes it more prone to this kind of damage.
Shoch assumed that the damage could only be due to regular rainfall, which is slight, and not adequate to have done the damage (which is subjective). But the water table is only about 9 feet below the Sphinx, and rare flash floods could have done a great deal of damage in short order, in repeated instances.
There are also any number of other refutations of Shoch’s “theories.” They are by NO means definitive and NOTHING has been proven.
June 5th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Randall: I do love our arguments..
I admit to having read C H Hapgood and have also belief in crustal displacement as having seen first hand molten granite ‘U’ turns in the Canadian Shield.. also the magnetic reversals and legends of the Sun staying motionless in the sky. Geologic formations consistant with west coast of Africa found on east coast of America shows a crustal displacement.
At one time Pangea was one large landmass. Flashfloods would have left different striations and would not account for the vertical channels.
the great flood epic of Gilgamesh/Noah seems to point to some major upheaval in recent ancient times. That is why I keep an open mind and do appreciate your feedback.
June 7th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Wow. I like this lists. Very interesting. Thanks.
June 8th, 2009 at 10:07 am
FYI,
British Prime Minister Gordon Brown faced renewed challenges to his grip on power Monday after his Labour Party suffered its worst electoral results in a century and another minister quit his government.
Brown’s future appeared to lie in the hands of a small band of rebel Labour lawmakers who will meet with him Monday to discuss the dire election results — after which they are expected to decide whether to try to oust him.
Twelve disgruntled ministers have quit so far, undermining Brown and raising doubts about his authority.
“He wants to fight on,” said Jane Kennedy, a junior environment minister who resigned Monday. “My fear is that it will be to the bitter end of the Labour Party. I think we are now in such a serious position that we really are fighting for the future of the party.”
The party finished third in Britain in voting for representatives to the European Parliament, behind the main opposition party Conservatives and the U.K. Independence Party, an anti-European Union fringe group. The results, announced Sunday, were Labour’s worst in a nationwide vote since 1910 — showing the damage wreaked by a scandal over lawmakers’ excessive expense claims.
Local results in simultaneous elections for district and city hall assemblies wiped out Brown’s party in parts of southern and central England, regions that helped former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair win three successive victories. Brown tried to pre-empt the bad news with a hasty reconfiguration of his Cabinet last week — promoting loyalists and handing high-profile jobs to his likeliest successors. He pledged to refocus his legislative program on reviving the economy and cleaning up Britain’s political system.
He is legally required to call a national election by June 2010, and Labour’s drubbing at the polls this weekend has been read by most as a harbinger of catastrophic defeat. Britain’s Conservatives are seen as virtually assured of returning to power for the first time since 1997.
A projection for the Sunday Times newspaper based on local election results suggested the Conservatives would win power with a majority of 34. Labour, which currently has a 63 seat majority, would lose about 140 seats — 40 percent of its total of 350 — according to the analysis.
“Labour cannot win with the present prime minister,” Labour lawmaker Frank Field wrote on his Web site Monday.
Field had long predicted Brown would fail to match the electoral success of Blair. “But even I didn’t think a Brown administration would be as inept as this one,” he wrote.
Rebels need the backing of 71 of Labour’s 350 lawmakers for a particular challenger to trigger a leadership contest, which would likely take about three weeks. Dissidents were expected to disclose the level of support for an ouster later on Monday.
But some observers say the appalling result for Labour — the party won just 15 percent of the vote in the European parliamentary elections — make it more likely Brown will be able cling to his job. They calculate rebels may struggle to find a challenger if the party appears doomed to defeat at the next election.
Changing leaders — and thus prime ministers — would increase pressure to call an immediate national election, because the new leader, probably the affable Home Secretary Alan Johnson, would be Britain’s second consecutive unelected prime minister. Brown himself was selected by the party to replace Blair in 2007.
If rebels back down, Brown is likely to remain in office at least for another year. Olympics minister Tessa Jowell said Brown plans to call an election in May 2010 — almost the last possible moment — hoping that an upturn in the economy will revive his political fortunes.
June 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Who won World War II
by Jacob G. Hornberger, February 14, 2003
While Nazi Germany lost World War II, does that necessarily mean that we won it? Only if we ignore the specific objective of Great Britain and France when they initially declared war on Germany in 1939 and only if the pronoun “we” encompasses the Soviet Union, who was the true victor in the European arena of World War II.
Why did Great Britain and France declare war on Germany in the first place? The Nazi armies had invaded Poland, and thus Great Britain and France declared war to free the Polish people from Germany’s totalitarian dictatorship.
Was that objective accomplished? While it is true that Nazi control over Poland was ended by the war, the Poles nevertheless had to suffer for the next several decades under Soviet totalitarian control. It’s difficult to see how that was a victory, especially from the perspective of the Polish people, who had to suffer under Soviet communist rule for the next several decades. The same would hold true for the Czechs.
Despite the partnership entered into between the West and the Soviet Union to defeat Nazi Germany, we must not lose sight of an important point: While it is difficult to measure evil, Stalin’s evil most certainly equals or even outranks that of Hitler, at least if we measure it in terms of how many people each of them killed. And remember: Stalin and the Soviet Union invaded Poland shortly after Hitler and the Nazis did (which raises the interesting question of why Great Britain and France declared war on Germany and not on the Soviet Union).
Of course, there’s no question that the West facilitated the Soviet victory. For example, there was President Roosevelt’s decision to furnish the Soviet communists with war materiel (“lend-lease”), which enabled the Soviet armies to more easily defeat the German armies on the Eastern front, and FDR’s “unconditional surrender” demand on Germany, which precluded the possibility of a negotiated surrender that did not involve the Soviet Union.
If the Allies could take credit for their partner’s “liberation” of Eastern Europe, wouldn’t that mean that they also would have to take responsibility for how that “liberation” was achieved?
Consider, for example, the mass rapes of German women when Soviet troops entered Germany in 1945, which are described in The Fall of Berlin 1945 by Antony Beevor. He points out there were virtually no German women, regardless of age, exempted from the mass Soviet rapes.
Is that what “unconditional surrender” meant? Were those rapes part of “our” victory? Is that why the Soviet rapists and their commanding officers were not put into the dock alongside the Nazis at Nuremberg?
For that matter, is that why Great Britain, France, and the United States failed to put Soviet officials on trial at Nuremberg for the murder of some 10,000 to 15,000 captured Polish officers, including those at the Katyn Forest? Remember: the objective at the start of the war was to liberate the Polish people, not kill them.
And what about Western participation in the murder of hundreds of thousands of anti-communist Russians after the end of the war? Despite the communist victory in the Russian Revolution in 1917, many Russians nevertheless still hated communism and communist rule by the time World War II broke out. That’s why some of them either refused to fight for Stalin’s communist dictatorship or chose to fight against it, the most notable example being Andrey Vlasov, the famous Russian general who decided to fight against Stalin and the communists after he was captured by the Germans.
In the eyes of Stalin and, indeed, in the eyes of Truman and Churchill, a Russian fighting against our partner Joseph Stalin and his communist comrades was a real no-no. So when Stalin demanded that Truman and Churchill deliver the anti-communist Russians to him after Germany’s surrender so that he could either murder them or send them to the Gulag, Truman and Churchill willingly complied. Is that what a partnership with evil to defeat evil is all about?
But what about the European Jews? Wasn’t their liberation a World War II victory for the West? It’s hard to see how, given that six million Jews had already been killed by the time Germany surrendered, in part because of Western refusal to permit them to emigrate to the West both before and during the war.
Could Great Britain, France, and the United States, rather than the Soviet Union, have won World War II? Absolutely. If they had left the Soviet communists to fight on their own and had left the door open to a negotiated surrender by Germany, Allied troops could have ended up liberating all of Germany and much of Eastern Europe from both the Nazis and the Soviets, and long before six million Jews were massacred.
June 8th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Randall and lostatsea1,
Would you both shut the fuck up already? No one wants to hear 2 old men from North America discussing what they believe is truth. I am far smarter than any of you. Go get a room homo’s!
June 8th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
335:cym: Bitchy! bitchy! still pissed about the 3000 eh! Maybe a little homophobic too! All my ex girlfriends might get a little pissed off with that last statement..but me..nah! I’m quite happy with my present lady friends. And I don’t need viagra..hehe
June 8th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
some of cymraegbachgen’s comments about wanting to have the 3000th comment on the creationism list:
“I’m sorry jfrater…and all the other moderators…but I am going to have to troll these next two posts to give me the three thousand…”
“I need this…..
Please dont take it from me!”
“3000!!!
Yay!
“NOOOOOOOOOO.
l@c i SHALL NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR THIS!”
“This was what I was living for and it was cruelly snatched from me!”
Ha Ha Ha, such a looser. This is all you look forward to. Yeah, I really believe you interact with other people. Sure buddy, whatever you say. Keep dreaming. I don’t believe you are an athlete. When do you play sports? You are on the internet all the time reading wikipedia. I do believe you sing in a choir. Hahahaha you ARE a geek.
Sing me a song
June 8th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
336 lostatsea1: That post above isn’t cym. Take a look, the icon is missing. It’s a troll who got his nick.
Also don’t respond to the enigma…he’s a troll too.
June 8th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
338:oouchan: AHSO!! Thanks love
I did miss that pertinent fact.. I should have known from the remark though, as it didn’t sound like our cym! At least I was nice!
June 9th, 2009 at 12:25 am
This is what happens when I don’t post until the middle of the night! Thank god for oouchan’s perceptive sight.
I would have pointed out exactly the same things, though I probably would have included an invitation to enigma to haul his/her/it’s rear end out of LV and onto a list where the company is more its speed…like ebaum.
June 9th, 2009 at 3:51 am
“Ha Ha Ha, such a looser”
It is spelt ‘loser’ Fail. Epic Fail.
“You are on the internet all the time reading wikipedia”
YOU are on listverse all the time, it would seem, trying to make others look foolish.
“I don’t believe you are an athlete. When do you play sports?”
Wednesday afternoons and Sunday mornings are rugby (a real mans game) and Saturday is football.
“Hahahaha you ARE a geek”
You say that as if it is a BAD thing. How old are you? Are you still in that High School mentality that mental ability is something to be avoided, and popularity is something to strive for? What a weak minded individual you appear.
Singing is a very difficult activity, and your derisive reaction to it proves that you have never taken part in serious competitive singing, unlike myself. You probably DONT have the stones to stand up in front of a thousand people and sing…what am I saying probably for? You are a big hard man behind your keyboard though. Fail.
“Sure buddy, whatever you say”
I am not your buddy. I am your better. Address me as such, troll.
My suspicion, sir, is that you are also responsible for the faked comment above. Of course I cannot prove it but Jfrater can. Regardless, if that IS the case, then you are far more pathetic than I thought possible for a single human being.
As you can sir, enigma, you aren’t fooling anyone. Nobody wishes to respond to a half brained troll, such as yourself. Nobody takes your points seriously, and if you continue in such a vein, you will lose your last dregs of credibility.
I KNOW it hurts to be pwnd repeatedly by a 21 year old student from a country you have never heard of, let alone could find on a map, but just accept it.
Don’t hate me because you have lost. Hate me because I, and most of the posters here, are better than you.
June 9th, 2009 at 4:12 am
334,
Now whoever is responsible, you should try a little harder. First, the apostrophe on the s is incorrect and I don’t make those mistakes.
I don’t use words like ’smarter,’ I use intelligent.
I shorten lostatsea1 to l@c
I use ‘two’ not the number
I would not say I was smarter than randall, or lostatsea – and have said that on this site before
You don’t have my pic.
Did you REALLY think people would mistake that pathetic attempt at imitation for me? Grow up, post under your own name, and learn some respect.
However, I suppose I should be flattered. I am obviously annoying someone to the extent that they feel they have to ruin my credibility and reputation on this site. I must be doing something right.
June 9th, 2009 at 5:31 am
341.cymraegbachgen87: Here I thought I was dealing with a drunk Welshman!!
I guess your fame is greater than you thought! hehe! Welcome back
June 9th, 2009 at 9:38 am
It’s been a week now… cym refutes enigmas claims, lost@sea contradicts Randall’s claims, Randall has a rebuttal for everyone’s claims…
but I see no one challenged my “Those gigantic, brutish things could very well resemble me”.
Well fine. I shall have to do it myself.
I am cute, dammit!
June 9th, 2009 at 10:20 am
343 gabi: I am cute, dammit!
We will erect gigantic brutishly cute things in your honor.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:28 am
341 cymraegbachgen87 : I am obviously annoying someone to the extent that they feel they have to ruin my credibility and reputation on this site.
****
cym, a small correction if you don’t mind. You have obviously annoyed some*thing* to the extent…
Just wanting to keep our end of the genetic pool as clear as possible.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
343.gabi319: We shall ‘erect’ giant Menhirs in your honour! Sorry my libido is running a little rampant right now!!
Just had a few beers with an old girlfriend! Now that might have stirred the pool!! hehe
June 10th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
HFCS does alter the way the digestive system tells your brain you are full, which tends to let people eat more. Several studies have been done on this, but dont let the facts get in the way of a good list. AGM would love for you to think corn syrup is good for you, which it is not.
June 10th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
345 – lol! Nice addendum!
I, of course, never mind when corrections are made! (Providing they are accurate and nicely made – which yours inevitably are
)
343 – gabi, words fail to express exactly how cute you are…
Satisfied?
June 10th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
347 – “Several studies have been done on this”
Could you send a few paper titles our way?
June 11th, 2009 at 6:32 am
hahah… i like that SOS part..
June 16th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Mexican Coke is also Kosher.
June 18th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
You are entirely wrong about HFCS. It doesn’t metabolize properly and lingers in the body longer in its original state, thus making it more likely to become fat.
June 18th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
@343
Attention whore.
June 18th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Well, bananas that we eat do not grow naturally. All the seeds have been breed out of them (they are the dark dots in the middle of bananas). The bananas we eat are totally dependent on man. The problem is the the genetic variations are almost gone and this marks the end of most species. So, bananas will die out in a couple unless man can devise some genetic variations.
June 19th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Not enough information backing up your claim about ‘Cell phones not causing Cancer’. Link: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/risk/cellphones
June 20th, 2009 at 7:50 am
@Az (353):
While the attention whore attitude of my 343 illicited a chuckle from whom that comment was directed, the lackluster whoriness of your attention seeking in 353 (because who honestly posts comments seeking to be ignored?) deserved nothing greater than a halfhearted eye roll with barely a snort. I know you were trying to pick a fight, Az(inine), but your effort wasn’t good enough for that. If at first you don’t succeed… that must mean you’re really bad at this.
@savdavid (354):
I doubt geneticists and agriculturalists will try to save the Cavendish since there are too many other bananas out there to move on to instead. This happened a few decades ago with the Gros Michel. Check out the link on my @gabi319 (37):
June 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
@gabi319 (356): gabi, Az is not worth the effort it took to to post your fine rebuttal. He/she/it does not even rise to the level of trolldom, thus making him/her/it less than human and thus not requiring a response beyond perhaps, “fetch”.
btw, very good “WoS”, though, in your case, it would be “WoG”.
June 20th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
356.gabi319: To get back on topic.. Most corn is now GM..
Seeds of Deception – A 10-Page Summary of This Landmark Book Exposing Industry and Government Cover-ups About the Safety of the Genetically Organisms (GMO) …
http://www.wanttoknow.info/deception10pg
June 25th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
perhaps in the first 3hundred and something comments, someone already mentioned this… Dr Pepper also has a pure cane sugar version known as Dublin Dr Pepper. It’s produced in Dublin, Texas (I live in Fort Worth, TX). The taste is definitely different. It’s Dr Pepper, but without the bad aftertaste that the HFCS leaves behind. Although I love Dr Pepper, I always feels like I’m drinking syrup (ugh). With Dublin Dr Pepper, it’s not like that. It also comes in the little glass bottles. Based on this, I assume the Coke product would have similar results.
July 4th, 2009 at 1:16 am
Do any reading about food products, especially corn, and you’ll know that HFCS does have some negative health impacts. This isn’t too much of a big deal if it weren’t for the fact that it’s in everything. That’s not to say that sugar’s wicked cool, but i know my body can actually digest sugar. Corn byproducts are filler devoid of any nutritional value, sometimes with a splash of flavor.
July 6th, 2009 at 8:31 am
cymraegbachgen87:
Where are you? Haven’t heard from you in awhile.
July 8th, 2009 at 5:01 am
Soz – bin bizy slammin ur mom
July 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am
What happened to your little picture icon Cym? I don’t think that’s really you?
July 8th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
@cymraegbachgen87 (362): I don’t know who you are, but I do know who you aren’t. cym could eat you for breakfast, but he might suffer from major indigestion.
Trollz are not welcome here, twirp. get along little trollie, get along.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:55 am
What? I disappear for a month and I come back to allegedly ’slamming’ someone’s mom?
enigma – I apologise for the rudeness suffered under my screename!
Segue – thanks as usual
So…what have I missed? Apart from a statement by some individual who thinks the height of hilarity is pretending to be someone else on a web forum… out of curiosity, are your parents siblings?
As segue said – run along. You are about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit.
July 14th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
@gabi319 (356):
I deserve “nothing greater than a halfhearted eye roll with barely a snort,” yet you post an entire paragraph in response. Nice one, moron. I also think that you have no idea what “attention whore” means.
And Azinine? Lol, really? Are you 10?
@segues (357):
Your retardation seems to be impairing your ability to insult.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:05 am
@cym(365) Wellcome back!
July 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am
@Az (366): Everyone who has been around for more than a few few days understood the insult just fine. In fact, anyone with more than a double digit IQ understood the insult just fine.
You’re the one with the retartation* problem. Don’t even bother try to figure it out because yes, it’s meant to be spelled that way!
*New usage. Please add to the lexicon.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
@Az (366):
Nearly a month later and you’re still holding a grudge? It’s sad to find out that two sentences and a throwaway modified idiom constitutes a fully developed paragraph where you’re from but I suppose an explanation is still in order. Eliciting a response in context of that comment was a physical/emotional reaction. Your comment of “attention whore” was seeking to offend or to pick a fight but frankly achieved neither. Maybe in your neck of the woods, a person’s emotional maturity doesn’t extend beyond what emoticons one can type in a comment, but there are others who are capable of far more complexity than that.
So now, in addition to ‘attention whore’, you take issue with my presently verbose attitude? You think I don’t know what ‘attention whore’ is because I’m not offended? Why should I be offended when I don’t give a flying f*ck what you think? If that stick in your ass doesn’t come out long enough for you to see humor then I recommend not responding to the comments like 343 in which I STILL don’t see your name mentioned and I have YET to recall interacting with you before so I STILL don’t know why you felt the need to be offended by my smart-ass attitude that I know can be appreciated by those who know me. I will recommend that for future reference you should skip my comments altogether because I’m going to continue behaving the way I do and try to get a laugh out of my friends and from new people I meet in any way that I can. Go ahead and wait another month to respond once again. Maybe then I’ll let you have the last word because dealing with your asshattery is wearisome. However, for now, I will end with:
And Azinine? Lol, really? Are you 10?
yes, yes, and no
@cymraegbachgen87 (365): You are about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit.
ewww…fart joke. hahahaha. glad to see you around, sir.
July 16th, 2009 at 11:48 am
@gabi319 (369): Glad to see the Azhat hasn’t gotten you down( though I doubt someone of his inferior ilk could marshal the goods to even have a go at that ).
cymraegbachgen87; my dear cym, I’m so glad you’re back! We truly missed that finely honed wit, along with double jab of intellect waiting to take down any poser.
Hurahhh!
July 18th, 2009 at 7:44 am
Morning all! I just watched the most succinct and amazing doc that tied together much of what I already knew but also a lot that I didn’t. Please google:
History of the Federal Reserve (Money Masters)
Probably the best three and half hours you might spend!
Another good doc is:
Stephen Hawking: Master of the Universe
This man has always fascinated me, a brilliant mind trapped in a deteriating body, it makes my problems pale in comparison! enjoy!
August 1st, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Whether they are myths or not, most margarine’s are still loaded with nasty hydrogenated oils which are very bad for the human body, same with high fructose corn syrup and also any type or processed sugars. All nasty.
August 8th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
illegal in missouri! thats amazing! i hafta use margarine a LOT and i hate it and its always butter-colored! and yes, i live in missouri.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:49 am
http://www.slu.edu/x15990.xml
HFCS has been shown to decrease the sensation of fullness, causing people to overeat. do some research next time.
August 29th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Before I read this, I thought health inspectors were really just evil clean freaks. Now I see how wrong I was…
September 11th, 2009 at 12:53 am
i still hate margerine…
September 24th, 2009 at 6:38 am
How about the idea that you can shove the bones in someones nose upward and into their brain?
I know lots of people who believe this. In fact, my sweetheart refuses to believe it’s not true.
It would take far more of an impact than a human can muster to create that kind of an effect. it requires like the force of a car crash.
Not to mention, there are no bones in the nose, it’s all cartilage. Thats why when you see a human skull it doesn’t have a nose, just those holes.
September 27th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
we like Missouri for banning butter colored margarine!!!!!
everyone think about it, or keep eating infused hydrogen, mmm!
October 29th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Besides the metabolic and taste differences discussed above, the biggest reason for blaming HFCS for obesity is political. For generations our government has subsidized selective crops. The support of corn farming has created artificial prices so that it can be used for HFCS and animal feed. Therefore, Americans can afford more grain fed meats (more marbled than grass-fed or free-range) and more HFCS sweetened treats. If soft-drinks reflected sugar prices, they would be more expensive. In my childhood, they were treats kept for holidays and birthday parties, not daily or weekly use, and were never served at mealtime.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I went to Manhattan this week-end and there was a giant billboard saying “as a child, he was no einstein”…
November 18th, 2009 at 8:30 am
POOP ON YOU