Black’s Law Dictionary defines “treason” as ”attempting to overthrow the government of the state to which one owes allegiance, either by making war against the state or by materially supporting its enemies”. Submitted here are ten people who did their level best to see that America couldn’t celebrate her official 234th birthday this week. And yes, this list is “too American.”
During the height of the Vietnam war in 1972, film starlet Jane Fonda visited North Vietnam and shilled for the North Vietnamese government, screeching that American prisoners of war (POWs) were being treated humanely. She then went on to condemn all US soldiers as “war criminals”. On hearing that many POWs claimed to have been tortured, Fonda denounced them as “liars”. She encountered no legal or professional repercussions upon her return to the US, but claims to deeply regret her actions today. How nice for her.
An American-born convert to Islam, Adam Yahiye Gadahn (aka, “Azzam the American”) threatened a terrorist attack on Los Angeles in a 2005 Al Qaeda video. As a full-on member of their “media committee”, Gadahn served Al Qaeda as translator, video producer, cultural interpreter and spokesman. His zeal in their propaganda was cartoonish in its intensity, but all too real. After Al Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri endorsed the videos—some of which referred to the United States as “enemy soil”–the Justice Department indicted Gadahn, the first American accused of treason since World War Two. It is widely believed that “Azzam the American” is now “Azzam the Dead American”; following reports that he was killed by a Predator drone in January 2008.
Aldrich Ames began working for the CIA during high school, and did so until he was discovered to be a Soviet double agent in 1994. He specialized in selling the identities of CIA agents, placed within the KGB, to the KGB. In true cloak-and-dagger fashion, Ames would mark a blue postal drop box with a piece of chalk whenever he needed to contact his KGB handlers. The damage he caused US intelligence efforts can’t really be known, but conservative estimates indicate that he exposed over 100 agents, and was directly responsible for at least 10 deaths. A thorough accounting of his finances revealed that he and his wife made over $4.6 million over the course of their espionage career. Ames explained the full extent of his activities as part of a plea bargain to mitigate his wife’s sentence (how gallant). As a result, Ames was sentenced to life in prison, while his wife received 63 months.
“Tokyo Rose” is a collective nickname applied to not one, but several sultry-voiced women who worked for Radio Tokyo during World War 2. In between popular songs, these sirens cooed Japanese propaganda designed to make American soldiers nostalgic and homesick. UCLA grad Iva Toguri D’Aquino was the most infamous. An American citizen of Japanese descent, she worked as a Radio Tokyo announcer from 1943-1945. Immediately after the war, D’Aquino was arrested, but released without being charged. Authorities reopened her case with a vengeance in 1948, and she was promptly convicted of treason in 1949. D’Aquino served six years in prison. Throughout her trial she denied any disloyalty to the US, and prosecutors didn’t present a single radio broadcast as evidence against her. In fact, critical testimony against her was later found to be false and coerced, to the extent that President Gerald Ford pardoned D’Aquino in 1977.
Yes, an American Vice President was also one of its greatest traitors. Fresh off his duel with Alexander Hamilton, Aaron Burr noticed his political career was now as dead as Hamilton was. So he looked fondly on the Louisiana territory, with its disputed borders, and residents toying with secessionist notions. Burr believed a small army could steal Louisiana away, so he contacted Britain’s ambassador, offering to help Britain take the territory. In return, Burr wanted money and ships. But he also needed a general. So Burr sent the infamous “Cipher Letter” to General James Wilkinson, Commander-in-Chief of the US Army, detailing the plot and requesting his services. However, Wilkinson believed the plan would fail, and ratted him out to President Thomas Jefferson. Thus, on December 9, 1806, the US Army seized most of Burr’s boats and supplies. But Burr knew it was REALLY over when he saw a New Orleans newspaper article with a verbatim copy of the Cipher Letter to Britain. Burr appeared in court and was not initially indicted, but fled when asked to appear a second time. After recapture, he was found not guilty, due to a very precise Supreme Court reading of the Constitution’s definition of treason. He then fled to Europe but returned after four years, finding work as an attorney.
In 1953, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were the first American civilians executed under Section 2 of the Espionage Act. Charges related to passing atomic bomb secrets to Russian agents (the data came from Ethel’s brother, who worked on the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos). Their legal prosecution was the “Trial of the Century” (prior to O.J., at least), and many felt the couple were unfairly convicted. However, recently declassified cables from the Soviet Union’s VENONA project, now support testimony that Julius was, indeed, a courier and recruiter for the USSR. In fact, Morton Sobell, who was tried along with the Rosenbergs (and served 17 years in prison), admitted in 2008 that yes, he was a spy, and that Julius Rosenberg handed atomic bomb information to the Soviets.
Robert Hanssen is a former FBI agent who spied for Soviet and Russian intelligence services against the United States for 22 years (1979 to 2001). During his espionage career Hanssen compromised scores of investigations and operations, including the surveillance of suspected mole Felix Bloch, and completed an eavesdropping tunnel directly under the Soviet Embassy decoding room. At one time, he even became responsible for apprehending himself, and he passed some of that off to Aldrich Ames (above). Worse, however, were his leaks to the USSR of every KGB agent contacting the FBI— conveniently identifying detected double-agents and prospective defectors alike. The FBI was so flummoxed at finding Hanssen, they had to buy the information to put him away (most of which they already had). Cash and Hanssen’s carelessness eventually led to his capture, and in 2001 he pled guilty to 13 counts of espionage in the United States. He was then sentenced to life in prison, without the possibility of parole, and can be found in America’s “Supermax” prison, where he remains in his cell, alone, 23 hours a day. Many have described his activities as “possibly the worst intelligence disaster in US history.”
Nidal Malik Hasan was a U.S. Army Major, and the sole suspect in a shooting at the Fort Hood military base, only weeks before he would have deployed to Afghanistan. Prior to the shooting, Hasan had repeatedly expressed extremist views, most of which had been communicated to his superiors and the FBI. The Feds had even monitored his e-mails to Imam Anwar al-Awlaki, also known as the “Bin Laden of the Internet”. Sadly, political correctness and a slow-moving investigation prevented the Army from taking action before Hasan murdered 13 people and wounded 30 others. Oddly, the Pentagon never mentions Hasan’s Islamism in its entire 86-page review of the incident. Never mind that during the attack, he was not in uniform, but dressed in traditional Muslim clothing, and was shooting unarmed victims while shouting “Allah Ackbar”. Hasan currently resides under heavy guard at the Brooke Army Medical Center in Houston, Texas, reportedly a paraplegic.
In 1967, Navy communications officer John Walker, Jr. snuck into the Soviet Embassy in Washington, D.C., and offered to sell secrets. He then handed over settings for the KL-47 cipher machine, which decoded sensitive US Navy messages. His motivations were purely financial, and he proved to be a screaming bargain: over the next 17 years, Walker gave the KGB the locations of all American nuclear submarines, as well as the procedures the US would follow to launch nuclear missiles at the Soviet Union in the event of war. The Soviets also learned the locations of underwater microphones tracking Soviet nuclear submarines. Moreover, KGB agents learned every American troop and air movement to Vietnam from 1971-1973, and they passed this on to their allies, including the planned sites and times for U.S. airstrikes against North Vietnam. According to Vitaly Yurchenko, a KGB defector, “It was the greatest case in KGB history. We deciphered millions of your messages. If there had been a war, we would have won it.”
His name is synonymous with disloyalty. During the American Revolutionary War, Arnold began the war in the Continental Army, but later defected to the British Army. While still a general on the American side, he became Commander of the West Point fort in New York, and offered to surrender it to the British. After the plot came to light, in September 1780, Arnold joined the British Army as a brigadier general, with a sizable pension and £6,000 signing bonus. Many believe that he was frustrated at being passed over for promotion, sickened by others taking credit for his achievements, and tired of (groundless) accusations that he exacted private property for the use of the army . In fact, Congressional investigations later found Arnold had spent much of his own money on the American war effort. Much like Aaron Burr (above) Arnold’s plan unraveled due to an intercepted document: when American forces captured British Major John André carrying papers revealing the proposed surrender of West Point, Arnold fled to a British ship docked on the Hudson river, narrowly escaping the forces of one highly pissed off George Washington. Britain quickly secured Arnold’s services, and he led British raids in Virginia, New London and Groton, Connecticut, before the war ended with the American victory at Yorktown. Arnold died in London, and monuments to him there are ambiguous at best.
Where is Jefferson Davis, or Robert E Lee? Anyone of the confederate generals or government officials could be on this list. They did not like the outcome of an uncontested election (Abraham Lincoln) and then took up arms against the United States – the very definition of treason.
The election of Lincoln was NOT the reason for the Civil War.
Yeah it was. Lincoln was elected without the electoral votes in a single southern state. Although slavery was a big reason, Lincoln's election was a culmination of the southern fear of an oppressive north.
Actually, yes it was. The future confederate states made it clear they would secede if Lincoln was elected, even though Lincoln had made no claim to abolish slavery at that time in order to gain an electoral win.
It's unfair to call Davis or Lee Traitors or treasonous, they were defending their way of life, not merely slavery as most think, but their right to decide for themselves whether or not to ban slavery or any other legal concept for that matter. In fact very few southerners owned slaves, only the super rich participated in the trade which even most southerners disapproved of. Robert E. Lee was a brave man who defended his beliefs of what he believed the United States stood for, as was General Grant and all who died (Southern and northern) in a very sad war that never should of happened.
Both Davis and Lee took oaths to defend the constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic. Do you deny they violated their oaths? Taking up arms against a government freely elected by your fellow citizens is the very definition of treason. I grant that Lee was a brave man, but in the end he was fighting for the right to own people. Slavery is an absolute evil; evil at all times and under all circumstances. Thousands of southerners joined the union army to put down the rebellion, and every one of those soldiers was more honorable than Lee.
Lincoln's election may have not been the primary cause for the Civil War, but it was the final drop in an already over flowing bucket.
I agree with that…. I think it goes little deeper tho, i believe the British had some influence in not having the south join the union, because the British had many slaves all over the world. Just makes sense,because the British lost they can use the south for a major division for the federal govenment.
Not merely slavery? Slavery was an important matter to them, so much so that the Confederate Constitution states that no laws can be passed banning slavery.
Yes, slavery was important to some, but not many mostly the rich, and such they used their influence to enact laws that would protect their own interests, but more so it was about protecting their right to make their own decisions as a state without the federal government interfering. It is a very ignorant idea to think the Civil War was purely about slavery, as I said before, the vast majority of southerners were not slave owners, but chose to defend what they viewed as their nation and their rights, not their right to own slaves, but their right to decide for themselves.
Not so, Bob. The South lost all claim to States' Rights as a moral cause when, true to decades of form, they used the Fugitive Slave Act to bludgeon Norther States into Federal submission in the capture and recovery of escaping slaves. To then turn around and demand slavery be protected by States' Rights was rank hypocrisy, and an utterly transparent sham. To pretend the Civil War was about States' Rights is beyond ignorant.
The Civil War was about the South, having at long last lost the battle to use Federal statutes to protect and expand their "peculiar institution," trying to abrogate the very document to which they'd clung like barnacles. While Lee was defending the state he loved (and I give him sympathy and respect for that) he was by definition a traitor. I have no sympathy or respect for scum like Davis.
VERY unfair assessment, henrysmyagent. Lee agonized over his decision to resign his US Army commission and take command of the Confederate Army. He turned down the Confederacy's first job offer and accepted a promotion to Colonel in the US Army. Privately, he ridiculed secession and called it "revolution and a betrayal of the efforts of the founders." Then, when Virginia seceded, he was only interested in defending his native state from a Federal invasion, not protecting his "way of life." He accepted command and the rest, as they say, is history. No matter which view you support in this generations-0ld debate about the War Between The States, you cannot deny that Lee was one of the greatest generals to ever command in all of history–as were many other commanders of that time. A majority of those old generals on both sides went to school together at West Point.
And yeah—-why isn't that evil bastard Timothy McVeigh on this list?? He certainly deserves to be on this list more than Jane Fonda. I fully expected McVeigh to be #1. Fer crissake.
With your logic, Osama bin Laden was a brave man who was only defending his ideas. No, bin Laden was a vicious criminal. And so was Robert E. Lee and the other leaders who insisted that they had the right to own other people and kill them (as their property) if they chose to.
Lee never killed any innocent civilians, only military personnel. He also was opposed to the idea of slavery. Further, according to your logic, then Washington was also a traitor for originally serving the British militatry as a Virginian militia officer, then fighting against the British in the American Revolution.
That argument only works when you win. Losers are traitors.
Not a very fair list if you ask me, why include Fonda who I agree was an idiot in some of her actions, but never really caused major harm to the country and leave out all the Confederates hell they actually went to war to destroy the Union. Or for that matter why isn’t Timothy Mcveigh included? He wanted to bring the government down because of his racist views and caused hundreds of deaths.
hanoi jane contributed to an enormous amount of propaganda for the north vietnamese. she was photographed sitting on an anti-aircraft gun and had the audacity to tell people the POWs weren't being mistreated. yes, vilifying american troops and adding to the vitriol of an enemy's propaganda *does* cause harm to this country.
but i agree with you about mcveigh – he should certainly be on this list.
I can see why some would see Fonda as a traitor I personally just think she is an idiot, but my point was that there are worst traitors that were left out. Also Tokyo Rose was innocent so why is she in this list?
Actually, “Tokyo Rose” was a generic name. I thought it was pretty dumb, too, that the article seemed to link it to Iva D’Aquino who was actually innocent. Why would you put that in there, then? Mildred Gillars (Axis Sally) was WAY worse!
Robert E. Lee declined an invitation to lead in the Union army. He didn't join the Union army and then change sides. He didn't attack his own troops or provide material support to the enemy.
Robert E. Lee was a born American citizen who pledged his life to liquidating the United States. He was also a commissioned US army officer (who once met a young Ulysses S. Grant, as his superior officer) who defected to a hostile nation, or at least a wannabe nation, and was responsible for killing millions of loyal Americans while wearing its uniform. There's no way that's not a "traitor," so if we're so in love with this label, pin it on him and shut up.
He was also a man of deep conviction, faced with a grueling choice between two of his most cherished values. By any moral definition, a person acting on behalf of the common welfare, however naive or misguided, or inconvenient to established power, is not a "traitor." Most of the people on this list aren't traitors. Some did what they could in tough times, some were impulsive and self-centered, and some acted on moral convictions without troubling themselves with pesky facts. (Now America's national pastime, apparently). One or two might have done what they did out of spite, or for profit. (I'm thinking of the recent double agents, whose acts seem mostly uninfluenced by any ideology or coercion.) Those are the only individuals on this list who might be "traitors," by any sensible definition.
In the 19th century, people's primary allegiance was to their home state over the nation as a whole. Robert E. Lee, for example, thought of himself as a Virginian first and an American second. He resigned his US Army commission rather than raise arms against his fellow Virginians.
Ummmm, nice revisionist history there.
You seem to be forgetting that the CSA (Confederate States of America) seceded from the USA. As such they were their own sovereign nation for all legal intents and purposes at the time the Civil War began. For those of you who would argue the legality of this….its basically the same thing the US did when it wrote up a little document on 7/4/1776, got everyone to sign off on it, and sent a copy to King George.
And the CSA did NOT declare war on the USA….other way around. Now, you might not agree with what they stood for, but that doesn't mean you can change history to suit your own likes or dislikes. No treason occurred here and if it had, US Grant would not have allowed Robt. E. Lee to ride out of Appomattox alive and/or not in custody after the surrender papers were signed.
And I, too, would like to know why Tokyo Rose is on this list. It's been proven to just about everyone's satisfaction that what little she DID do was under duress and the threat of execution by the Japanese govt. Timothy McVeigh would be much better suited to being on this list than her.
Mark, despite your anticipatory argument, CSA was never sovereign, because succession was illegal. Simple fact, very straightforward. The bigger question is why argue this point now? The USA was finally sovereign when we defeated the British efforts. The Confederates were all traitors. Accept it and move on.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” – Thomas Jefferson
Um … if Tokyo Rose was pardoned, why is she #7 on the traitor's list?
Agree. Unless she has confessed to the crime or there is indisputable evidence it is quite unfair to call her a traitor for something she was pardoned of.
Then again I wouldn't blame her for betraying her country given how the US treated it's Japanese American citizens.
Did it occur to you that she was mentioned so that her pardon could be mentioned.
perhaps you should have first addressed the "tokyo rose phenomenon" in general and then added her story and pardon as a conclusion? the way you wrote it singled out that one woman as a traitor when she was innocent.
so you were either lazy/sloppy or just didn't care who you painted with the brush of treason….. and that was not very honest of you………
D'Aquino was very specific about the coercive nature of the Imperial government's "request" that she and her producer, a white American man also residing in Japan at the outbreak of hostilities, broadcast Japanese propaganda in English. (As the entry stated, she was not alone; there were many Tokyo Roses.) She also told entertaining anecdotes about taking advantage of officials' limited knowledge of the English language and American culture to subvert the approved copy. American sailors often laughed at her apparent "mistakes," when gibberish, double entendres, or bizarre turns of phrase came out of mouth; they assumed she was Japanese and had an imperfect grasp of English. Not so; she enjoyed native fluency, and a sense that anything she could do to avoid harming, and actually entertain, Allied servicemen, while not getting beheaded, was a valid act, no matter how trivial.
Actually, that sounds like a lame attempt rationalize a mistake you made instead of simply admitting it and moving on.
It would have fit better as a "Bonus" after the list. I've seen it done on this site before, where something is almost fitting with the list, but for some reason isn't quite right.
It isn't a list of pardons.
Little known of the Tokyo Rose case was she was a Republican, a Girl Scout, from LA and in Japan when the war started to help her sick mom.
It was take the job or starve. Even less known was she spent some of her earnings feeding starving American POW's in the prison camps. Walter Winchell was looking for a scapegoat and found one in her.
She died a few years back at age 90, still known as a traitor when she was anything but
xilebat–
did you leave off anna chapman because its in the news right now, or because they dont yet know the scope her involvment in the russian spy rring recently uncovered —– or something else all together?
how about because she's not a US citizen (as far as i know)? she is the child of a lower level russian diplomat, was born in volograd russia and was later married to a british man in a ceremony in russia -none of that makes you a US citizen. i believe she did gain british citizenship after her marriage, did she become naturalized in the US as well?
if not, she can technically only commit treason against russia, not the US. pretty big reason to leave her off this list (no matter how much media attention she's getting).
well, *****……that makes sense to me!
and as you defined treason, mirrors my understanding of the concept as well.
i happened to be thinking of the more ubiquitous term "traitor" at the time
thanks……………………………………………………………
What is a traditional Muslim clothing? Are you refering the clothes people wear during pligram or the cothes imams wear or a cloth from Arabic culture?
I think just the standard robes and such. Like what number 9 is wearing probably.
There are no "standard robes and such", the only requirement is that Islamic men wear clothes that cover from as minimum from the naval to below the knees. There are some traditional robes, but these can differ as well depending on which division of the Islam you belong to. A "cloth from Arabic culture" would also not be standard, seeing that only about 20% of all the Muslims in the world are actually Arabs.
Nidal Malik Hasan had seen Americans killing Arabs and other Muslims, many of those civilians. His supposed 'Islamism' – whatever that is – has nothing to do with it. He was just fed-up. He was angry. He was frustrated. In other words, his human emotions burst at the seams and they got to him. To claim that his reaction was religiously-motivated is to ignore what is so obvious. Not objective this is, Xilebat. And by the way, Muslims exclaimed "Allahu akhbar" for many reasons – a set of keys falling from one's hand, stepping into a puddle, forgetting something, hearing a bad news – so just because he cried "Allahu akhbar" does make what he did religious………unless you can prove that it is.
I also read an interview with a Muslim soldier in the US army that said that after 9/11 he, and others, had been persecuted by not only their fellow soldiers but their superiors as well. If I remember correctly that is supposed to have been one of the main reasons behind the Hood shootings.
all ragheads lie.
that’s a lie
….yeah. Keep drinking the Koolaid.
FLAVORaid.
You’ve got to be joking. How can you equate “a set of keys falling from one’s hands” to the fanatical rantings of murdering zealot? While Muslims may say allahu akhbar when they stub their toes, you must look at the context in which this lunatic was saying it. He most definitely was religiously motivated to kill those innocent people. This was beyond being “fed up”.
Allah u Akbar, just translates into "God is Great",
and can be used in almost any context and any situation
allahu akhbar is an even more generalized and obtuse saying than "god damnit" -sure, he may be a fanatical murdering zealot… but the use of the phrase doesn't add or demean anything in speech other than emotion towards a situation. In fact, its one of the first phrases you learn in Arabic- to use when someone agrees with you- they don't have many descriptive exclamations in Arabic.
"Allahu Akhbar" is a warning
which translates out to "God Ackbar"
which loosely means "It's a trap!"
Oh, I see what you did there!
Its actually the equivalent of saying, 'Dear Lord'.
hasan is just a stinking raghead traitor just like all muzzies and all of them should be expelled from america.
And you sir, are a troll.
Not to mention, quite lame.
Agreed, I'm sure there were Native Americans that started off helping the Army and then got fed up with seeing the hypocrisy of polices and treatment of their people. If you put enough bull ***** into a human being they're bound to blow a gasket and cover as many people as they can.
It's still a horrible inexcusable thing he did. The only time killing is an option is in self-defense or the immediate preservation of another(like when someone is shot while holding a gun to someone else's head), never to make a point or vent frustration.
I'm sure if he had been a different race and religion, there would be speculations specific to what ever he was. I think the more important thing to focus on is that he obviously is suffering from some kind of psychiatric disorder. Most people, even if they were really really *****ed off wouldn't even try kill anyone, much less an entire group of people.
You are dr. Retarded aren't you. The fact is that he is Muslim not another religion. It had everything to do with his radical views. If he was another religion or race unrelated to the current enemy (radical Islam) he would not have done it. I don't believe he has a mental disorder. you're right most people wouldn't do this, because most people are not terrorists. He's just the enemy and hates Americans, simple as that.
Also native Americans were not US citizens so they couldn't have committed treason.
No one made this guy join the military. He obviously did it to infiltrate us and attack us when he had the opportunity either in Hood or after being deployed.
Why are we so politically correct and affraid to call things the way they obviously are. Those who want to destroy our way of life do not struggle with trying to sugar coat things by being PC.
Collectively if we don't quickly get our heads out of our asses and become real and stop making our first priority to not offend someone with the truth the Islamic terrorists will eventually win.
“…become real….”
Um, do you mean like the stuffed bunny in “The Velveteen Rabbit”?
Just because someone kills another does not mean that person is suffering from a psychiatric disorder. There are many reasons why people murder others. Reasons such as for money, lust, love, hate, etc. While some murderers have a psychiatric disorder, not all murderers are not "crazy." Some people are just willing to murder others for their own reasons.
I would think that a person that kills someone else is most definitely suffering from a mental disorder, no matter what their “motivation” is for the killing.
It takes a pretty effed up person to kill someone, no?
It's obvious that it was religiously motivated. Anyone who doesn't share his anti-American views can see that. Unless YOU can prove that it wasn't.
Yep, just like burning the Quran is religiously motivated.
Jane Fonda did her level best to see that America couldn’t celebrate her official 234th birthday this week. Bullocks. She did her best to say ***** the war and up yours if you don't agree. If only more had that spirit!
She wasn't just saying "***** the war", though. She was saying "***** the American troops", many of whom didn't want to be in Vietnam any more than she did. Criticising your country for an aggressive war is one thing; encouraging the deaths of your countrymen is another.
So if you make fun of or say ***** the troops you deserve to be *****ted on and hated and called a traitor for 40 *****ing years.
Whatever..
Seriously. I mean thinking about it I wanna say you know what, ***** the troops.
I used to be much more sympathetic to "Support the Troops".
Come to think of it, maybe saying ***** the troops is a great way to protest the war.
Well in that case, you're a coward. And Jane Fonda was a stupid ***** to do what she did.
How does that make me a coward?
You're a coward to attack men and women who risk their lives on a daily basis from the safety and comfort of your chair. Beyond that, generalising in the manner you did there – "***** the troops" – suggests you're stupid also. So you're a stupid coward.
Aside from that, I actually have been involved in genuine war protests since March of 2003. Stupid cowards like you make these protests more difficult and less effective because you don't know enough about the subject to validate your making a statement of the magnitude of "***** the troops".
Woyzeck's quick recap: you're a stupid coward who doesn't seem to know how to effectively protest the war you profess opposition to because you clearly don't know enough about the subject, you stupid coward, you stupid coward. You stupid coward.
Yeah, you do.
Good luck with that approach, dumbass. I hope you don't live near some of those right-wing, Amurca-loving rednecks.
You don't have to dis the troops to protest an unjust war. They are only doing their jobs and following orders, lest they be court-martialed and imprisoned for—–treason. You ought to find a different way to protest, lest you get your ass beat in some bar somewhere.
Using vulgarities to press your point shows a lack of factual background. Check out the photos of Jane Fonda sitting with the North Vietnamese, pointing a weapon at the sky as if to shoot her fellow Americans. Jane Fonda was a traitor. She will forever be remembered for that, especially by those of us who remember her traitorous acts and had friends and family in Vietnam. We cannot pretend that her efforts on behalf of the North Vietnamese did not harm our troops. Further, the pressure that she and her Hollywood friends brought about to the end the war..caused the murders of millions of South Vietnamese by the North. Shameful. There are ways to end a war that do not cause harm to one's own country and soldiers, and do not cause the millions of deaths as the American anti-Vietnam war crowd caused. Like most positions one takes on a serious issue, there were serious repercussions.
Well, if Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson hadn’t sent our troops to Vietnam in the first place, NONE of our American troops would have been in harms way.
They were supporting their buds in France…protecting those Michelin rubber trees.
Perhaps the way she went about things was wrong, but certainly not as wrong as the three above mentioned potus’s
Spot on. Not to mention that the Vietnam War was one of, if not the most widely protested conflicts in the US. You can't ignore the countless number of protests and riots that took place in demonstration of the war.
She just happened to be one person who spoke louder than the rest.
It wasn't just what Fonda said that got her in trouble, it was going to North Vietnam and taking a photo of her manning a North Vietnamese anti aircraft gun (see picture). That is more than speaking.
Add in visiting prisoners of war and not only offering them no aid, but calling them liars.
I served in the Viet- Nam war and many of us consider Jane Fonda to mbe a Great American Hero!!!
She had the world by the balls(new movie carrierand all) and she threw it all away because she had the courage to stand up against what she felt to be wrong…so unless you carried an M-16 around the jungels of Viet-Nam picking leaches out of your uniform Leave Jane the F_ _ k alone
Oh for crying out loud. You rightwing dweebs really have to grow up. Jane Fonda was a young woman, passionate about stopping an unmitigated travesty, who simply got carried away. I was young once, I said things that embarrass me now. (Though mostly in the name of conservative causes; I've grown up since.)
In the atmosphere of the time, the Establishment was promulgating all kinds of nonsense about the nature of the war, suppressing vital perspectives, and lying outright to keep the sheep placid. In that kind of situation, it's normal to react in kind, to counter that the alleged villains are really heroes and the professed good guys are evil. Totally immature, but very common. I well remember that era; someone pulled down the American flag from the pole in front of my school and replaced it with a North Vietnamese one. Most students thought it was a terrific coup at the time. When you're young, it's all simple. You don't do subtle shades of truth, or the idea that _everybody_ might be wrong.
The important thing is, Ms. Fonda has repeatedly expressed true remorse, counting off her misdeeds in detail, apologizing not only for the rant but for each individual statement, one after the other, and in fact for the whole tour. She has said she was used as a propaganda tool by the North Vietnamese, and that her honest desire to see the US out of a bogus war led her to do rash and foolish things that just made things worse.
What the hell else do you want?
jane fonda, really? so criticism equals treason now? yeah, she made some dumb statements, but she never gave out top secret information. and she made numerous statements and apologies for things she said in the past.
cats: "criticism", really? By going to Hanoi during the war, jane fonda willingly served as a propaganda tool for the north vietnamese. This is so much more than the mere "criticism" you claim it to be. And I'm sure John Walker, et al., would also offer "numerous statements and apologies" for their actions, if they thought is would serve their purposes.
How do you know she willingly served as a propaganda tool? Isn't it possible that she went there to see for herself what it was like and the North Vietnamese lied and presented her with the prisoners in the best condition, which she then (stupidly) believed was the case for all of them?
Go check that item again, witcharachne. Take a look at the picture of Hanoi Jane wearing an NVA helmet, sitting in a gun emplacement. Or are you under the impression that is ANYTHING other than a North Vietnamese gun? What impression does that photo give to a person "simply voicing their opposition to the war"?
Yes, because I know enough about guns to determine if it's North Vietnamese or not. She's wearing a helmet and sitting next to a turret? And? Which turret is it? Where is she? Is the photo taken while she's in North Vietnam, or is it South? It's not like there's much in the background to say anything definitive. Being in a warzone doesn't mean she's supporting it.
Aside from that, it was a genuine question that I asked, not an attack. I don't know enough about the situation to make a judgement, so I'm not going to. And unless you present some actual facts, I'm still not going to know enough to judge.
My apologies, witcharachne. I am of that time period, and I know EXACTLY what that photo depicts. That photo is a kick in the balls to every American serviceman that served in Vietnam, and I tend to forget that a younger generation might not be familiar with it.
I also guess that vets orgs such as Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) felt that the war was a kick in their balls too. If anything, I would say that Jane Fonda is more of a dissident as opposed to a full blown traitor.
jeff, what are you saying? That Fonda was a mere dissident simply because there were other kicks to the balls? She didn't limit herself to opposing the war in general. She actively supported the North Vietnamese, in North Vietnam, boosting their morale and causing harm to our POWs. Because her presence and vocal support of NVA gunners (among others) gave them added care and zeal in trying to kill American fliers, Americans died as a direct result of her actions. That is undeniable.
In a 1988 interview with Barbara Walters, Fonda expressed regret for some of her comments and actions, stating:
"I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families. [...] I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft gun, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless…" (wikipedia, reluctantly).
Yes, some of her actions were not well thought out, but her aim wasn't to bring down the US. If anything, it was to bring the war down fullstop. On both sides. Also, she probably wanted to see the other side of the conflict for herself, as opposed to being told the purely American point of view and then blindly chanting USA, USA.
Yes but she didn't have to do the complete opposite of that by hurting her country's soldiers. It is good she apologized though.
I vividly remember Jane Fonda coming to my University to speak at an Anti-War rally. I was 16 and just trying to get across campus, from one class to another, when I got caught up in the huge crowd. She was ranting about the American "baby killers", and how the North VietNamese were just attempting to protect their country from foreign aggression.
I remember there was a group of people with her on stage, but no one I could identify. As she spoke, I was becoming more and more lightheaded, feeling as if I might pass out, or simply lift off, and float above the crowd. It was incredibly intense.
Too, my personal experience of Viet Nam was negative. My high school boyfriend had been drafted and was dead within 6 weeks of arrival in country. That, in itself, didn't change the political reality for me, only the personal, private reality.
At home, my dad was a loud and vociferous supporter of the war. He didn't need, or even want, to know any of the politics involved. He was the original "MY COUNTRY, RIGHT OR WRONG." So, discussions about the war didn't exist in my home, although the nightly news, with all of the horrible news footage, played throughout dinner nightly.
It seemed to me that both Jane Fonda and my dad were wrong. That both were missing something vitally important about this entire war…"police action".
Today, I know what was missing. I know the REASON for the war, and it's nothing you'll find in any history book.
The reason was unimportant. The war was happening. We had to support the troops, the men who were there, fighting.
That was one awful realization for a 16 year-old who had just lost her first love.
I never did manage to extricate myself from that crowd, and I missed my class. The professor was very understanding about the whole thing ( thankfully, because it was in my Major!).
segues, that being the 60's and all, I have a sneaking suspicion exactly WHAT was making you "lightheaded, feeling as if [you] might pass out, or [especially] simply lift off, and float above the crowd." Sounds like some killer weed!
Magnumto, you may be (almost certainly are) correct. I was never a fan of the stuff, myself. I had other interests in that area, but the fact of the matter was I didn't have much time for recreational drug use.
You might have noted I was 16 and at Uni. I was taking a massive course load, plus I was modeling to make money. There simply wasn't much extra time for recreation. When there was, I had my preferences in another direction entirely. I'm a very visual person, an artist, a photographer.
Those are all the hints you'll get.
you were 16 and doing your masters??
your point?
oh nothing, just that I love the internet.
Well it sounds like a tall story to me……
No worries mate.
Maybe you shouldn´t have gone there. It was not your business. Not your problem, you just wanted the Vietnamese resources. Vietnam kicked US´s ass whether you recognize it or not. Vietnam won the war and they implanted their system, if it´s good or not, it´s not up to us to decide. It´s their *****ing country. What if, for example, Russia or Brazil invaded the U.S to impose their way of living? How would you react? It´s the same in Afghanistan, Iraq, and all the countries the U.S have invaded (including mine, Dominican Republic, where your country helped to overthrow a democratically elected government in 1963), you have to let other countries run their life, and not go around ¨saving us¨, because you´re not. It´s not like the other countries want to be your enemies, everyone needs to make business with the U.S, the problem it´s that you feel like the world is yours, and it´s not.
Wrong list, Cesar. Try to focus.
Thats a pretty narrow view. As an American I want to pull everyone out of Iraq and Afghanistan right away as much as the next guy, but just remember that you have us to thank (along with our friends the British, Australians, Canadians, and many other allies) if you are able to read this post in any language other than German. There is some good in America's foreign policy as well.
Very funny Do you really believe that you Americans beat Nazis ?! I always thought that the Soviet tanks did it ..
First off we didn't want Vietnamese resources. We were there to stop the spread of Communism. It was a quasi-war with the USSR. Which honestly was not a good reason, considering the South actually supported a communist system.
And Vietnam did not "kick the US's ass." Regardless of what the media may portray it as, the US actually did well in Vietnam. Less POWs were captured than in other wars before it and no battles were lost. We just lost the hearts and minds of the people.
“Americans died as a direct result of her actions. That is undeniable.”
Wrong. I would say that Americans died as a direct result of the war, period. And who sent American soldiers over there in the first place? Not Jane Fonda.
Furthermore, those soldiers didn’t refuse to go and kill people. The way I see it, ultimately it’s their own fault if they got killed. When a government is wrong, disobedience is a civic duty.
typical CLUELESS Libkiddie know-it-all who doesn't know jack ***** but wants to lecture others on what "really" happend [read: revisionist history] in 1972 (very likely well before they were even born). You'll fit right in with your "hero" Blobama and the rest of his CRIMINALS.
—
REMEMBER IN NOVEMBER
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IMPEACH BLOBAMA AND HIS LACKEY CRIMINALS
Jane Fonda? …who put this list together anyway? She was very young at the time and just voicing her opinion. Guess most people are "traitors" then! Geez.
You're a fool coolidge. Or you are blind and one of those anti-American muslims that hate this country. If you hate it, leave it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! And go to one of these crap hole 3rd world muslim countries and stay there.
So voicing your anti-war opinion is treason? Might as well have put the Dixie Chicks on here if you are going by that logic. =/
The Dixie Chicks never went to an enemy country, they never sat in an enemy anti-aircraft gun, they never caused pain to already tortured POW's, they never denounced the war, and never caused POW's to be tortured for there idiocy. Jane Fonda has been listed in the 100 greatest women of this century. Apparently they forgot Lizzie Borden, Eillen Wornos, and Ma Barker. The Dixie Chicks expressed dislike of a sitting American President, that has nothing to do with treason.
Kudos for place Hanoi Jane where she belongs, in a disgusting group, with other disgusting individuals.
There’s a difference between a traitor and someone you just dont like.
You're right Arsnl, there is a difference.
But when your actions are done while sitting on enemy soil, and you have enough celebrity status to actually make an impact on the current situation, things go beyond merely being a dissident.
I don't know if "traitor" is the proper term for Jane Fonda's actions during the war. Many of my closest friends who were politically conscious during the time these things were happening outright call her a traitor. To this day.
What would you call a person today that causes as much damage to their own home country's troops as Jane Fonda did in the 70's? I think "dissident" is woefully inadequate.
By her own words she says she was "thoughtless and careless". If disloyalty was not a factor in her actions, she was at least ill-informed and naive.
And really, really determined to be a driving force on the event.
Perhaps Commie Sympathizer is a more accurate term.
You didn't lose the war because of Jane Fonda.
Didn't lose a war due to Benedict Arnold either. Your point?
Some would argue you won it because of him (Battles of Saratoga).
kaze, had Hanoi Jane stayed in Hollywood and simply provided sound bites voicing her opposition to the war, then no, I wouldn't define it as treason. But by volunteering to go to Hanoi and supporting the North Vietnamese propaganda machine, then she was "materially supporting" the enemy, and even the most apologetic traitor is still, by definition, a traitor.
The Dixie chicks just needed a new fan base and some recognition from NPR. What better way to revitalize a career than to become “political”. It’s worked for green day. I think they even have their own broadway show now! Gross.
Yeah, it worked for Dennis Miller, too.
His career was DONE….OVER…and then TWO WEEKS after the Dixie Chicks incident he was all over the Faux Antinews Network proclaiming the wonders of King George of Bush and his faithful Dick Cheney…then he starts touring with that lame humor, and low and behold, now he’s got a (very bad) radio show where he talks p00p about “liberals” and how they are out to destroy America.
Talk about being a poster child for hypocrisy.
I don’t want to go off on a rant… but, ***** Dennis Miller.
About #6, I read somewhere that the two main witness against her lied in the court, so she was pardoned. It is also interesting to note that she never renounce her US citizenshep, when the Japanese told her so..
This is a great list. I am becoming more and more interested in history, now I have some more people to research and learn more about. I love these kind of lists. Thank you.
If speaking negatively about the war is treason, lock me up now.
AStuart, do it willingly on an Al Qaeda (sp?) video, and we will oblige you.
Can you say "simpleton"?
Jesus, dont you people know anything. If you dont finish what you started then starting it in the fist place was a waste of time. TERRORIST=UNSAFE AMERICANS AND THE REST OF THE WORLD. Get your head out of your ass and support the military.
People like you give the rest of us normal sane Americans a bad name.
And I wish you folks would just go away.
Or at least JUST BE QUIET.
Take your meds…do something…but stop making the rest of the world hate us.
If by “Too American” you mean biased and sensationalist, then you’re right on the money.
I don't understand the presence of some of the entries in this list either.
The US Constitution specifically restricts any legal definition of Treason:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
You might argue that Jane Fonda "adhered to" North Vietnam and gave them "Comfort", though I would dispute "Aid" which is also required in the definition. The constitution's first amendment, however, suggests that mere campaigning should not be classed as a criminal act.
Nidal Malik Hasan went on a murderous rampage in an army base. But if he was motivated by religious beliefs then he was not "adhering to" any specific enemy, nor offering "aid and comfort" to them. To declare treason you must identify the enemy being adhered to, aided and comforted.
The "Tokyo Rose" item seems to have omitted any evidence that Iva Toguri D’Aquino was actually guilty of Treason. She refused to broadcast initially and only continued after she was specifically assured that her broadcasts would contain nothing against the USA. Her post-war investigation confirmed this.
This list of ten traitors seems to really be seven traitors, one mass murderer and two people you don't like, one out of apparent ignorance.
ps: Author not American.
Bob, when Hanoi Jane aided the North Vietnamese, not just by voicing her opinion elsewhere but in THEIR country, in THEIR gun emplacements, intentionally boosting THEIR moral, then the "Aid" portion of the definition is satisfied.
And you can really quit with your incessant "Hanoi Jane" nickname. I think we all can see by now that you don't like her, but you sound as immature as the list author regarding this woman.
Yes, it could be described as aiding. So, why was she never charged, then?
Oops – double post
I thought it was a good list and I am American.
As if anyone but an American would think it is.
Who pooped in your porridge?
He did with his non sequitur.
Hey, I like hockey and I'm Canadian. See what I'm saying?
Wasnt it Julius Caesar (not our Julius Germanicis
) that said i love treason but i hate a traitor. This list does exactly that. Isnt it a bit hypocritical. To claim that your spies are good but the other spies are bad? Lets face it its all a game and for me personally i dont see ANY difference between a religious murder and a nationalistic/patriot one (i love the humor in that rockets name: patriot). Its all caused by man’s ignorance towards other human beings.
Btw: can anyone explain to me the death sentence in the rosenberg case (preferably a death sentence fan)
I know this is quite a inflaming thing to say, but what about people like George W. Bush? Haven't they betrayed America as much as the people listed, by showing no regard whatsoever for the Constitution? With the Patriot act and Guantanamo (among others) Bush has stepped on the very idea the Founding Fathers created America on: freedom. Isn't betraying the spirit of a country as bad of even worse than betraying the political entity? And I've used Bush as an example because his exploits are best known, but there were many more of those people.
Also the blatant lie that was WMD.
To be honest, that wasn't really in conflict with the Freedom of the American people. Yes it was deceitful and unethical (in my opinion), but they people had the right and the freedom to punish him for that by not allowing him a second term in office. That he got one anyway, is the freedom the US populace has to make (again, in my opinion) stupid mistakes, which is just as much a Constitutional right.
ARMIN—You meant to say OBAMA!!!
I was actually shooting more for people who are generally seen as good guys, like FDR (Japanese internement camps) and McKinley (Invasion of the Philippines). And what to think about the Business Plot, which was conveniently swiped under the rug because of the important (and rich) conjurers. Or McCarthy(ism), which gravely impeded freedom of speech, a First Amendement right.
As for Obama, you could argue that him not closing Guantanamo, or the ratification of the ACTA-bill which is pending, would also be violations of the Constitution. But i want to add, that while such things can be said about Obama, I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a US President (or any other politician) of whom such things can't be said.
I think I'd put Cheney on the firing block, then Bush.
I think Bush genuinely thought he was doing the right thing, but Cheney is just pure evil. Anyone who didn't see a war coming when the freaking CEO of Halliburton got a seat directly behind the President of the USA is naive beyond belief.
And they were around for two elections! That's what scary. The public voted them in twice.
that just goes to show how *****ty john kerry was.
on the other hand it also shows how *****ty mccain/palin v. obama/biden was.
Bush II was APPOINTED President by the Supreme Court in 2000, not elected.
Don't forget to include your "hero" Blobama–the Traitor-in-Chief.
BUSH? He was protecting the american citizens. How would you fight terrorism? Move them in down the street and have our taxes get him a lawyer? Yes that is our constitution, but they are enemy combatants. Passing a law in Congress without the support from the people, OR TO EVEN KNOW WHATS IN IT, thats wrong and against the *****. LETS JUST ALL BLAME BUSH FOR EVERYTHING. *****ing LIBS! Wait until were broke because of MR FREEBEE and sit on your ass congress. Our way of life is OVER. you work, you pay for the poeple who dont work. I quit then.
So is it Alright if i think benedict arnold was a goody?
Is it alright?? Of course, Silly Human. Opinions are like *****s—everyone has one.
Will your opinion on any given subject always be popular and make you a hero in the world's eyes? Not hardly.
Yay!!! Finally someone who thinks like me!!! Benedict Arnold got *****t on by George Washington et al.
He was the hero of Saratoga…suffered a terrible injury that plagued him until his death. He loved this country, and he loved George Washington and he got effed by both of them.
I’m not saying he was right for trying to sell Westpoint, but the story is not as cut and dried, or black and white as most people are taught in their school history books.
Treason is a charge invented by winners as an excuse for hanging the losers.
Julius, I would argue that "war crimes" is the charge invented by winners as an excuse for hanging the losers, not treason.
Wikipedia: <>
So you actually think that the charge of participating/causing a genocide is something invented?
Well ofcourse it is enforced by winners on the losers (not much happened to the ussr after ww2 or to the us or the japanese camps) but to say its invented is very idiotic.
Don't be an obtuse ass, Arsnl, if you can help it. It was "invented" in the sense that it can be either brought as a charge or not. Many of the biggest "war criminals" of WWII were brought to the U.S. and the USSR rather than being charged as such, simply because of their knowledge. Wouldn't you say that makes it rather spurious and subjective? Otherwise, what Gen. Hap Arnold, the architect of our firebombing and carpet bombing of Tokyo, Berlin, etc. etc. etc., would have been prosecuted as a war criminal. The fact that it is enforced by winners is an idiotic distinction to even make. A war crime is a war crime, but charging someone for it is an invention.
I'm no expert but I think genocide falls under crimes against humanity while war crimes deal with the violation of international law in regards to war such as the Geneva convention.
And on the treason/ war crimes issue I agree with both of you.
We condemn those that betray us for our enemies but the laud those that betray our enemies to us. We vilify our enemies crimes while we ignore ours and our allies.
"History is written by the victor" is quite appropriate here in my opinion.
For me to invent means to construct something from scratch, something “artificial”. That is the case for treason. Your spies will always be the good guys and people spying you will always be bad and it makes no sense because al spies do the SAME thing.
In the case of war crimes, like you say its subjective and varying. You might not charge some and accuse others (like in the abu ghraib -spelling- case). So you can find winners trying to charge themselvs.
Arsnl, treason – the betrayal of one's country – isn't limited to spying. While the Rosenberg's and Walker's actions were traitorous and treasonable, so were Benedict Arnold's actions in planning to surrender West Point to the British. While the British certainly weren't going to punish Arnold for it, surely they must have looked on his actions as a betrayal of the U.S., a betrayal of his duty as the commander of that fort.
Arsnl, I just realized we're arguing philosophy (for want of a better word), and we'll probably never agree. Thanks for the discussion. Peace.
This is an interesting take on what is and isn't treason depending on who won the war. Imagine that that the British put down the US revolution. I rather imagine that George Washington would be considered a traitor to this day, and Benedict Arnold a hero to the brits. I'm assuming that Washington held a british commission and therefore said the same oaths to the King. Just goes to show that history is written by the victors.
I've participated in the search for the remains of soldiers who died in the Korean War, some of which were American. I've seen the mass graves. Trust me when I say war crimes are very much real.
debatable, but probarbly true. History is written by those who survive. So.
lot more people betrayed their country for america…some for good reasons while some for not-so-good reasons(money,power etc)
I seem to recall a guy named Noriega who did that.
I almost didn't bother with this list when I saw Jane Fonda as No. 10. I should have gone with my instinct. NOT a fan of this list at all!
Then you'll love this comment. Jane Fonda should have been taken into custody, lined up against a wall and shot for her actions in North Vietnam.
Wow, you sincerely need to grow up. Now people you don't agree with should be killed? Get a life, or go move to North Korea or Iran.
Well, she should be tried (although she can't be as she didn't *really* commit a crime)… And held responsible for her actions and her words. Harsh words can be very damaging and I'm sure hers did a lot of it.
wait you think she didn't "really" commit a crime, yet you want her to be tried for that same crime?
that seems a bit *****ed up! like we know you didn't shoot that guy, but we want you to be tried for it……
well, yes. 'tried' is a bit harsh word. i guess i framed my words incorrectly. what i mean was everyone should be held responsible for their words.
something like i am responsible for what i said 21 hours ago.
well, at least in the US, "tried" in the context you used it would be shorthand for "tried in a court of law" and to even be "tried" for something our legal system requires some evidence that a specific crime has been committed by the individual to be "tried" (this follows them being arrested for the said crime…..)
and as far as "held responsible for their words" well, this is currently a fine line between general and protected "free speech" and the rare and specifically disallowed "hate speech".
again, in the US, this fine line is still being clarified in the courts. as of now fred phelps aka "god hates fags/soldiers/sweden/etc/" still operates under the protection of "free speech" even when his cult teeters very close to "hate speech"……….. so the concept of being legally held accountable "for their words" is a weighted and legally evolving concept in the states. that said, we are pretty proud to err on the side of free speech so far.
yes. i agree, the choice of words were, err… faulty. and as far as freedom of speech goes, like every other freedom given to people, this is very frequently misused by people. if people don't have the brains enough to not say what they shouldn't, and by saying that i mean they say something that is based on half- truths and biases (as are most of the cases) and that end up hurting a lot of sentiments, they should be held accountable for their words. How? Sadly I dont know.
No more that Nixon and Bush actions and nobody label them as traitors.
You mean like using words like “…free to use our 2nd amendment remedies” and placing a gun sight on a map showing the people you want to take out, only to have them taken out with a gun?
I could use your statement to describe Sarah Palin, Sharon Angle and that crazy woman in Florida who said “If a ballot won’t work a bullet will….”.
If Sarah Palin can’t be held responsible for her words, maybe we should let ol’ Charlie Manson out of jail now. I mean, he didn’t actually kill anyone. Why should he be held responsible for the crazy people who “followed” him?
And you should go to school and learn what freedom of expresion mean.. dummy!
Does school teach us that “freedom of expression” means cavorting with the enemy and aiding & abetting them in their fight against our own countrymen is ok? I missed that lesson.
Jane went to No, vietnam, she publically faced american pilots, flirting and openly praising the north. The americans received punishment, and torture,from the vietnamese,because they showed disguist, and disdain for her acts, that gave moral, and a will to fight against us. Some of our men tried to send info back with her, and she refused, or gave it to the reds, which caused some of our men to, suffer more torture, etc. Fonda took her personal ideas to the enemy, built up thetre desire to fight, and to thinik america actually agreed with her activist ideas. This all caused great harm to our polot prisoners. She could have voiced opinions, but not when it wouold ccause injury or death to our young men. Jane is luck she wasn't shot.
Of course not. She's a liberal coward. Liberals are 'anti war' because they too cowardly to fight for their country.
Why do we have to have a troll inducing list for the Fourth of July? Couldn't we have something a little higher brow or a list of interesting facts about America?
Also, Bob Dowling's comment sums it up best (and he says he isn't even an American), as it seems that some of these people do not even fit what the United States Constitution deems to be treason. Especially Jane Fonda, who I do not even like but does not deserve to be called a traitor.
This list is subjective and ill-informed at best.
Happy Fourth of July!
Indeed quite a trollish list for today. A more positive list would have been better.
It's the 5th of July here in NZ. Quit living in the past, man:-)
"Why do we have to have a troll inducing list for the Fourth of July? Couldn't we have something a little higher brow or a list of interesting facts about America?"
Expecting the entire world to bow down, recognize AND celebrate to one country's national holiday is in itself rather trollish.
The site here is international, based in New Zealand. And taking THAT into consideration, a list about people who have hurt the US and her citizens IS a rather nice salute to the US.
If you want a bunch of undying and cheerful homages to the US, you should probably be visiting a site that originates in this country.
Happy Fourth of July!!
Deeez the fact here is that some of these people, while hurting american citizens, helped to establish a certain equality/balance on our planet. Imagine if only the us would have had the atomic bomb. Wouldnt that have been a risky thing? Why would an american citizen be more valuable than a russian one? Even oppenheimer thought a certain balance would be needed.
Others (jane fonda, and thru this im also replying to your previous comment) arent traitors. Incompetence and stupidity to see the real situation doesnt make you a traitor. Thru her actions, she didnt kill/help kill american citizens. You could argue that propaganda helped improuve the morale of the viet cong. I doubt that.
Like a couple of people said, the tone was imflamatory. I dont think ill be celebrating the 4th of july but atleast i want to see something cheerful and not something that will cause arguments. I think we have to endure enough stress in our day to day lives, we dont need to get ourselves worked up with comments on LV. Atleast im trying not to get worked up.
You say "arguments"…I say " differences of opinion".
And the comments area of each day's list is ALWAYS the playground and forum for the reader's opinion. Which is as I've stated elsewhere on this very list, is something like an *****, everyone has one.
The subject of Jane Fonda aside, the subject of traitors aside, the subject of other opinions aside……My comment to THIS commentor (Timothy), is that List Verse is INTERNATIONAL, and today's list could easily have been 10 Great Things I Found in my Bellybutton. (I hear that that list has been shelved due to it's very "self-centric" topic.)
So to recognize that to US citizens, on their day of independence, that there have been traitors in their midst, on an international blog, and choosing to post such a list on their holiday, is (to me) somewhat gracious, rather than trollish.
And in the grand scheme of things and in LV"S deep archives, this list is hardly argumentative or abrasive in it's comments.
P.S. Is it possible the author included the Jane Fonda entry just to up the comments count?
Well on an upside: the guy that organized munchen ’72 died today.
Maybe im just being very peaceful now cuz im on vacation after a very long year and i dont want to think about anything.
Ps im very grateful for my ***** and for my opinions. I hope both will continue to be in the same tip-top shape for a long long time.
How about Scooter Libby for outing ex CIA agent Valerie Plame in an attempt to discredit her husband after he found that Bush admins claim that Iraq was trying to get Yellowcake from Nigeria was dubious(at best).
Richard Armitage "outed" Plame after she had been out of a covert role for over a year.
The yellowcake intelligence came from the British. Why wouldn't we believe them?
ha ha i knew johnathan pollard wouldnt make this list! I guess spying for Israel isnt treason since we all live in the Jew-nited states now……
anon, Pollard definitely should have been here. I would have preferred him on the list instead of Tokyo Rose. But I doubt the omission was because he spied for Israel.
I'm not sure that dressing in 'traditional clothes' or whatever and shooting unarmed people makes you a traitor to your country. It just sounds like he lost it and it was a single incident so that doesn't really make him a traitor…actually, the list doesn't even offer a reason why he is a traitor. Because he killed some people in his country? Other people have done that too… this list needs to be a bit more objective and consistent with its definitions.
You are clueless! This guy was a military leader who remained loyal to Islam. The only good thing that came out of this is that he was stopped before he was deployed. He could have caused way more damage to US troops.
Yes just like a Christian zealot that kills abortion doctors or others that they feel are
going against their perceived notion of “god”.
Funny how only Muslims are considered “traitors to their country” but a Christian zealot is just considered a crazy Christian zealot who snapped.
Can you please name me some Christian Zealot US SOLDIERS who shot and killed several other US Soldiers?
A US Soldier INTENTIONALLY killing other US Soldiers. No, that’s not a traitorous act at all…
Jane Fonda was pretty hot.
did you get a different picture of her than the rest of us did?
No.
Well watch this and make your opinion: http://www.cinemaretro.com/uploads/jane_fonda.jpg
haha — i semi-expected to have someone comment on either liking her or not liking her based on her views more than her beauty.
i didnt actually expect someone to post a better picture of her.
my dad thought she was attractive, but
she doesn't do it for me at all,
nevertheless, well played indeed {:-)
Jane Fonda……Shaking my head on that one. That to me is a stretch.
Also some of the entries have a negative feel to them instead of sticking to facts.
Not really a fan of this style of writing.
However, I did learn a bit when sifting through the entries so good attempt is what I'll say.
One of the top five worst lists I've ever seen on this usually awesome site.
What are the other four?
Jane Fonda deserves to be on the list.
That's what i'll say!
Being a communist and enjoying the privileges of a free country is treason.
Among KGB's executives they had a word defining this type of person: rich, vain but fond of the comunist's austerity: it sounded like "Gov'nod" , meaning *****eater.
"Being a communist and enjoying the privileges of a free country is treason."
Not really. It's called having a different political viewpoint. You sound like a George Bush supporter. "If you don't agree with me, you're not a patriot!" Maybe you people should learn to read the Constitution, particularly the First Amendment. And I bet anything you'd think a capitalist in a communist country was some kind of hero.
>You sound like a George Bush supporter. "If you don't agree with me, you're not a patriot!" Maybe you people should learn to read the Constitution, particularly the First Amendment.
Strawman, much?
>And I bet anything you'd think a capitalist in a communist country was some kind of hero.
Because he/she is. A capitalist in a commie nation is advocating freedom for their people from being treated as livestock and slaves under communism.
“people from being treated as livestock and slaves”
Yeah! Because Capitalists NEVER do that!
Should you be locked up for supporting totalitarian practices (i.e. locking people up for their opinions) while enjoying the privileges of a free country? People like you yammer on about freedom, yet you're the first ones to sacrifice it when confronted with anyone whose opinions differ from your own. Free countries don't jail people for being communists, genius.
funny thing they call me a Bush supporter when the only point of view i expressed is that of the soviet intellighentsia.
Since i gathered the most thumbs down i'll say that maybe "being a communist and enjoying the privileges of a free country is not treason" but is very very unpleasent. Is that fine?
*remembering fondly the time when there was not this thumbs up-down nonsense on the Listverse*
Jane Fonda should have stayed in Vietnam. What a sicko.
This is not a successful Listverse entry. It's sloppy, opinionated and inflammatory, with personal comments rather than facts.
In the past, even lists that are politically sensitive have been fair-minded.
If this trend continues, it will dilute a very successful and enjoyable website.
This list is way to american…..Oh well.Good and intresting list maybe you should write a worst traitor in all the worlds history.
What Jane Fonda did was perfectly within her rights, and does not at all make her a traitor, because she merely spoke out against the severe injustice which the USA served Vietnam. It is possible to love your country but not love all that it does.
In all fairness to Aldrich Ames, wasn't he just doing basically the same that the CIA moles were doing to the KGB? Selling the identities of other moles? A bit hypocritical of the Americans to condemn him really…
Tokyo Rose (Iva Toguri D’Aquino) was pardoned, which means that she was not a traitor at all, and that your government and country recognizes this. Or at least they should.
No, Fonda went to an enemy government in time of war and propagandized for them. She broadcast anti-American speeches while there, applauded anti- aircraft crews that shot at Americans, wore NVA gear, and tried to whitewash claims that American soldiers had been tortured.
Yes, D'Aquino was pardoned. I mentioned that. Does nobody get irony anymore?
… I understand irony only when it is present.
Look harder
Worst list ever. Go back to fifth grade.
Also what about Lee Harvey Oswald,he was meant to be a defecter for the communists and 'MAYBE' could have shot JFK.It really depends on how much this list is based on facts.
Brooke Army Medical Center (BAMC) is in San Antonio, not Houston.
I was about to say something about this. It is part of Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio, so I guess I can understand how someone could get confused.T
Man, why are things so political on this website?
Happy 4th of July! The list suits the event today.
Did you even read the list?
Nidal Malik Hasan was treated like ***** during his post. He was seen as 3rd class citizen by his superiors. His "comrades" in arms hated him and went out of their way to make him feel unwanted. He was being harassed for his religious beliefs and decent (land of the "free" my ass, you people are the most racist *****s out there) . The guy pleaded, begged on his knees, not to send him to Afganistan as he didn't want to be responsible to death of his fellow brothers and sisters. He was ignored all the time. So he finally snapped like any other person in his position would. If he's a national traitor then Columbine kids are also national traitors.
*****ing author biased against Islam and eating Fox News propaganda. http://exiledonline.com/scrubbing-major-hasan-the…
Well said Dkay.
if he didn't want to fight then he shouldn't have been in the military
Well said elroxzor99652! Hasan was an officer, if things were really that bad he could have just quiet his commission. Instead, he chose to murder his fellow soldiers! Hasan is a coward and a traitor who will rightfully spend the rest of his life behind bars. And if he viewed the Taliban as Brothers and Sisters than he even more *****ed up in the head than you are!
That's no excuse for murdering 13 soldiers and wounding 30 more who personally did nothing to him.
I like how Dkay said "So he finally snapped like any other person in his position would"
Yeah, every person, in the whole world, when put in that position, would go on a killing spree.
Yeah, he was in a terrible situation, and was definitely regretting some decisions he made, but you know what? It doesn't give you the excuse to murder people, no matter where you are. So while the original poster is moronic with regard to his statements/fact checking, I would argue in court any day that so are you.
DUDE!!! i see what your saying but when i signed up to be part of the united states army that means he agreed to all the duties it entailed INCLUDING going to war. i live here at ft hood i know all about army life and soldiers being deployed 95% of the guyes dont want to be there. what he did was wrong and there is no way to take up for that i dont even see how this is compared to columbine (ive read a lot about them too) as far as i am concerned he gets whatever he deserves….oh and i dont think he should be on the 'traitor' list
Jane Fonda really? At the worst all she's naïve in believing what the N.V. was true.
So giving a ***** about the otherside is treason…awesome!
Worst list I've ever read on here.
No, propagandizing for an enemy government in time of war and providing material support for the enemy is treason. There's very big difference between these two things.
Worst list ever. You might want to research "Tokyo Rose" D'Aquino a little-she was no traitor. In fact, she smuggled food to American POWs. Why no Timothy McVeigh or any of the Corporatists that aided Hitler during WW2?
Agreed. You'd think a man who blew up an FBI building *might* be considered a traitor. Or Jim Jones. The whole Leo Ryan thing.
i think coolidge is so right, so grt in detail of any thing in this world we firlstly must have a neutral mind set, any fixed mindset can effect and hence stop our learning process as well as the chances of widening our vision and perspective…….
great list !especially what coolidge said is very practical and positive.well said.
what does this even mean? are you talking about calvin coolidge? is it related to the love the teabaggers have found for him of late?
but more importantly, what on earth does it have to do with this list? whatever "coolidge said" it appears nowhere on this page…….so you are sounding like someone discussing things only she can hear and see!
go to the top of the comments.
*not* counting the nested replies, "coolidge" had the 5th comment, between a comment from ozhan, and a comment from @#$%!!. its a post that says something about hasan, and starts off like this: … "nidal akhbar hasan had seen………."
evidently anna has not yet learned that we have direct reply buttons at the bottom of each comment
thanks, but that makes it even more odd that his(?) comment has a high rating and hers are so low.
perhaps people just voted down because it made so little sense without linking to the original guy?
thats exactly what i was thinking happened.
and, i'd allow myself a satisfactory margin of error when making a guess like this, but its the only time the word "cooledge" appeared in the entire post (list+comments+links) —
it just seemed weird to me……….
This is is an excerpt from the Snopes web site, regarding Hanoi Jane's trip to North Vietnam:
“Aside from visiting villages, hospitals, schools, and factories, Fonda also posed for pictures in which she was shown applauding North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gunners, was photographed peering into the sights of an NVA anti-aircraft artillery launcher, and made ten propagandistic Tokyo Rose-like radio broadcasts in which she denounced American political and military leaders as ‘war criminals.’ She also spoke with eight American POWs at a carefully arranged ‘press conference,’ POWs who had been tortured by their North Vietnamese captors to force them to meet with Fonda, deny they had been tortured, and decry the American war effort. Fonda apparently didn’t notice (or care) that the POWs were delivering their lines under duress or find it unusual that she was not allowed to visit the prisoner-of-war camp (commonly known as the ‘Hanoi Hilton’) itself. She merely went home and told the world that ‘[the POWs] assured me they were in good health. When I asked them if they were brainwashed, they all laughed. Without exception, they expressed shame at what they had done.’ She did, however, charge that North Vietnamese POWs were systematically tortured in American prisoner-of-war camps.”
Jane Fonda wasn't just some hippy hanging out at Haight-Ashbury saying "Stop the war, man!" She actively supported the North Vietnamese war effort, in North Vietnam, to the detriment of the U.S. (and other U.N. countries). THAT is why she so richly deserves to be on this list. Americans died as a direct result of her actions. Since she was a United States citizen at the time, THAT is what makes her a traitor.
Do you understand the meaning of “direct”?
Americans died as a direct result of her actions.
Really? An American died SOLELY because of what she said? I really truly seriously doubt it!
Was she a traitor – maybe/ maybe not, personally I don't think she qualifies. A dissident probably. Stupid in the extreme – Definitely.
Cheers
Lee
Yes an american died because of her. The POWs that were forced to meet with her tried to slip her their service numbers on little pieces of paper in hopes that she would get them back to the military letting them know they were alive. Jane turned the papers over to the Vietnamese. After she left, the POWs were severely beaten and one POW died from the beating.
Bumper sticker in TX.
WE AREN"T FOND'a JANE!
RIP US vets.
Utter nonsence , boys were dying by the thousands because nobody had the balls that she had to tell the truth. We didn't belong there! We were scared by Neo Cons into believing that everyone who didn't think like us….was an enemy. They were not our enemy! She stands vindicated in history. Not right wing history…but in real history! She is a hero….she saved lives…many more would have died without her and others taking up the truth and running with it. Whats wrong with people defending their own Country from outside invaders?? Why did my friends die? For what? Look how far the termites have crawled!
Yep, this list sucks! I dont mind American lists if the title specifies, and since its you lots independence it was a fitting list…if it was well compiled, it was so terrible it should actually be taken off. Hidal Malik Hassan and Tokyo Rose???? Are you serious?! I think you guys (the moderators) should try to quality assure these things before they go up. Just editing isn't enough
Why don't you start a list website in whatever country you live in if American-oriented list bother you so damn much?
Overreact much?
These people don't understand what it means to be an American. America is so much better than all of the other countries, that when someone in America starts talking to other countries, they get the "Traitor" sticker slapped on them…
As for reality, if there was fictional characters on here, then General Ripper and George Bluth should have made it on here.
ahahahahhahahaahahahaha
you're joking right?
right??
Angling for thumbs down? That's a hobby?
Below average list
To all the people saying Jane Fonda was merely "speaking out against the war" (guffaw) do your *****ing research. Fonda encouraged the deaths of American soldiers and ignored the suffering of the POWs she encountered. The reason she recently apologised is because she recognises that her actions almost certainly caused many men to lose their lives and she feels remorse for this. "Speaking out against the war" is not treason – in many cases, quite the opposite – but you *****ing morons who think that everyone who opposed the war is righteous should put your Che Guevara t-shirts in the washing machine and go take a nap.
I AM WOYZECK AND I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE.
P.S. check out Rick Barber, the lunatic running for Congress in Alabama. His ad campaign (available on Youtube) casually encourages sedition and sickeningly inhabits the personas of dead men to achieve this aim. He's a *****ing jerk.
You sign up for the military, you've agreed to die. If someone doesn't appreciate you shooting babies and makes a video about how you deserve to die, and then you die, you can *****ing refer to your signature on those recruitment papers. "I didn't know what I was getting myself into" is the worst excuse ever. You just didn't know someone was going to be shooting back at you.
What a load of tripe. Are you 12?
This list is fine except for the Jane Fonda entry. First off, like others have said, criticism and treason are not the same thing. But that's really a minor quibble compared to the actual writing of that item. It's just so biased and hateful. "Shilled", "screeching", "claims to regret her actions", "how nice for her". It sounds like you have some kind of personal vendetta against her, and it just makes you sound ridiculous and immature. You consider all the other people on this list traitors, yet you manage to keep a neutral viewpoint when presenting information. But the Jane Fonda item just comes off as really childish to me.
Pogs, you're a riot. Apparently, everyone who believes Hanoi Jane was a traitor is "immature" and "childish". If that's all you've got to defend her, we must have a convincing argument – either that, or you have poorly developed reasoning skills. You might want to look up "ad hominem"; I'll give you a hint by using it in a sentence: "Ad hominem attacks aren't effective in winning arguments."
You clearly don't get irony.
Magnumto, you are exactly correct about the “ad hominem” attacks…so why don’t you just stop making them, then, and take your own advice.
Because you aren’t winning.
Not even close.
Seriously Becky? What have you contributed to these posts besides bad criticism? Ridiculous.
Magnumto: 1
Becky65: 0
Get a clue.
I'm sorry, and I know some people will get mad at this, but I really feel like recently a lot of the lists have been way more biased than usual. JFrater has been making a habit of letting out his conservative opinions of late, and unfortunately seems to be letting really opinionated stuff come through in the lists too, but only as long as it's also conservative. We know he changes list items sometimes if he thinks they're not good enough, but he lets this stand as is? Unless you want this to become a propaganda site, you should keep a tighter leash on the list writers.
i feel ya
disappointing list…
what about john walker lindh? he was a member of the taliban before and after 9/11 and *****ing shot at american soldiers.
if anyone deserves to be executed, it's the people on this list.
the funny thing is that Obama is pretty much doing the same things and following the same policies that Bush did when he was president. For the record i think both of them are awful.
not a bad list overall, but not a top 100 either. i was kind of expecting to see the signers of the declaration of independence, but i they were traitors to england, not the US.
Good list; a bit biased but good. The comments are very very good and often highly interesting.
Nidal Malik Hasan? seriously? Snapping from years of racism is treason against the US? Wow…black right activists must be traitors too. What do you expect? the guy was only human!
I recall that the Tuskegee Airmen suffered much worse racism and still served valiantly. And Hasan was a psychologist– he had the tools to overcome any perceived racism. What he couldn't overcome was his jihadist desires.
Hasan was in combat fatigues while shooting. Not "traditional Muslim clothing".
This list is terrible.
My sources said differently…please tell where you found that. Most people are getting hung up on this and missing the point that the army's fascination with political correctness did not act on a ticking time bomb…
name your sources. same standard as you ask from others…….
That's the best thing about the free world… we can actually express our opinions in a forum like this.
Terrible list obviously written by a right-winger eating FOX propaganda. Should be removed. Recent lists like this one have been a worrying trend here.
You sound kind of like a communist.
ahahahaha.
jesus
Giant, i hope that was a sarcastic joke.
So, if Benedict Arnold spent much of his own money on the American war effort, why would he then turn around and betray the Americans? Something's missing here…
It seems to me that if he spent his money on the American war effort, he would want the Americans to win so he could get paid back, unless the Americans had no intention of paying him back.
Did Benedict Arnold betray the Americans, or did the Americans betray Benedict Arnold?
Damn good point. I agree.
I feel the same. Plus, how can you betray a country that does not yet exist?
Stockholm Syndrome… how sad.