A critical turning point (a watershed moment) in history is when something changes and things will never be the same again. This list looks through history at the most significant events that truly did change the world. Whether those changes are for the better or worse is obvious in most cases, but not always – especially as one can never compare the future if the watershed moment didn’t occur. Enjoy the list and add your own significant historical events to the comments.

The second phase of the Russian Revolution, the October Revolution, had overthrown the Russian Provisional Government (established after deposition of the Tsar) and gave power to the Bolsheviks. The policies of the Russian Provisional Government had brought the country to the brink of catastrophe, and the country faced the threat of financial bankruptcy. An armed insurrection in Petrograd (St. Petersburg) on 25 October, 1917, with Bolshevik operatives sent out from the Smolny by Vladimir Lenin. They took over all critical centers of power in Petrograd in the early hours of the night, without a shot being fired. The success of the October Revolution transformed the Russian state from parliamentarian to socialist in character, and led to the eventual formation of the Soviet Union. The revolution played an important part in defining the whole of the 20th century. Subsequent large-scale industrialization under the communist regime, and its role in World War II, saw the USSR emerge as a global superpower. It extended its influence into much of Eastern Europe and beyond, thereby leading to the cold war, and clashes, often violent, between communist and capitalist ideologies all over the world.

Although there had been other kinds of engines around, James Watt added a separate condenser, thereby reducing by almost 75% the fuel that had been used by previous engines. Watt’s addition to the steam engine caused its production and overall usefulness to skyrocket in the 1800s, and the development of a practical, efficient steam engine and its application to industry and transportation caused a great leap for industrialization. Its application was virtually limitless; it was used on railways, paddle steamers and steamboats and was not only used to move goods from place to place, but also to move people. The development and subsequent application of steam power was undoubtedly the greatest technical achievement of the Industrial Revolution, and was responsible for lifting industries from infancy to adolescence.

The murder of the heir to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and his wife, by the Pan-Slavist military society, Black Hand, produced widespread shock across Europe. An ultimatum, known as the July Ultimatum, was issued by Austria-Hungary which was partially accepted, finessed, disingenuously answered or politely rejected by Serbia. Austria-Hungary then declared war on Serbia, thereby obliging Russia and France to mobilize their armies under the clauses of the “Secret Treaty of 1892”. Russia’s mobilization set-off full Austro-Hungarian and German mobilizations, and paved the way for the great war. This first case of total war completely redefined the nature of European politics, and allowed for the emergence of the US as a superpower.

One of the deadliest pandemics in human history, the Black Death is credited for devastating the medieval population and causing a substantial change in economy and society in all areas of the world. The initial outbreak of plague, in the Chinese province of Hubei in 1334, claimed up to ninety percent of the population, and succeeding outbreaks caused the death of two-thirds of China’s population. In Europe, it is estimated that between one-quarter and two-thirds of the European population died from the outbreak between 1348 and 1350. The sudden shortage of cheap labor provided an incentive for landlords to compete for peasants with wages and freedoms, thus sowing the seeds for capitalism. The resulting upheaval also paved the way for the “Renaissance”. It took almost 150 years for Europe’s population to recover from this devastating plague.

The medieval fortress and prison in Paris, known as the Bastille, represented royal authority in the center of Paris. Its storming, on 14th July, 1789, was a flashpoint of the French Revolution, and the Bastille eventually became an icon of the French Republic. To the people of Paris, the Bastille was a symbol of brutality and totalitarian power, and, although the prison only held seven prisoners, the storming of the Bastille had done far more than release these seven men: It brought an ancient system of royal tyranny to an end. Upon learning that the Bastille had been taken, King Louis XVI asked an aid, “Is this a revolt?” The answer came swiftly: “No, sire. It is a revolution.” The storming led to the subsequent publication of the “Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen”, and an epic march on Versailles. It was not long before Louis XVI was executed, and the modern era unfolded in the shadow of the French Revolution- growth of republics and liberal democracies, the spread of secularism, and most importantly, the rise and fall of Napoleon completely defined the politics of modern Europe.

Smallpox has been, without a shadow of a doubt, the deadliest disease in the history of human kind. Smallpox was greatly feared, as one in three of those who contracted the disease died, and those who survived were often badly disfigured. During the 18th century, small pox killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans per year, and was responsible for an estimated 300–500 million deaths during the 20th century. With the arrival of European Settlers in the New World, the outbreak of small pox wiped out 80-90% of the Native-American population. A cure was strongly needed. Englishman Edward Jenner had observed that milkmaids did not generally get smallpox and theorized that cowpox, a disease contracted by milkmaids, similar to smallpox but far less virulent, protected milkmaids from smallpox. Jenner then tested his hypothesis by inoculating 8-year-old James Phipps, and from there on several other people, and discovered that those inoculated with cowpox were immune to smallpox. His discovery and research eventually led to widespread vaccinations, and to this day, smallpox remains the only human infectious disease to have been eradicated.

Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press with replaceable/moveable wooden or metal letters in 1436, and revolutionized the production of books, fostering rapid development in the sciences, arts and religion through the transmission of texts. It played a key role in the Protestant Reformation, via distribution of pamphlets in an effective, yet inexpensive, way. It also helped fuel the Scientific Revolution. With the ushering in of the “Printing Revolution”, the Gutenberg Printing Press laid the material basis for the modern, knowledge-based economy and the spread of learning to the masses.

The “Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgence”, written by Martin Luther in 1517, is widely credited as the start of the Protestant Reformation. The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, and many of the doctrinal policies regarding purgatory, Mariology, sacraments, indulgences and the authority of the Pope. By the early 1520s, Luther had attracted a vast following, as the newly formed printing presses had helped spread his message, and reputation, across Germany. The Reformation offered two choices-to be Catholic or Protestant, and there was no real alternative. In the lights of the Reformation, the Church, too, started a counter reformation; heretics were subject to punishment, torture and death, and books propagating Protestant themes were burned. Meanwhile, wherever Protestantism had obtained official status — England, Scotland, Geneva, Germany and Scandinavia — Catholics were persecuted. The Reformation split Europe, and shattered the religious unity of Europe. The Church as an institution suffered a severe setback in terms of its moral authority and political power. By strengthening the power of monarchs, the Reformation helped to produce the modern state, and, in an indirect way, Protestantism contributed to the growth of political liberty.
As an interesting sidepoint, Luther’s toilet has been recently discovered by historians, and it was on that very toilet that he wrote the theses, due to spending large amounts of time sitting on it because of constant constipation. You can read more about that here.

The Berlin Conference (1884 A.D.) had been called for by Portugal, and was organized by Otto von Bismarck, the Chancellor of Germany. Its outcome, known as the General Act of the Berlin Conference, is often seen as the formalization of the Scramble for Africa, where European superpowers carved themselves pieces of Africa on paper in order to extend economic and nationalistic agendas. The conference ushered in a period of heightened colonial activity on the part of the European powers, while simultaneously eliminating most existing forms of African autonomy and self-governance. By 1895, the only independent states in Africa was Liberia and Ethiopia.
![]()
Throughout history, the influence Jesus had on the lives of people has never been surpassed. Christianity has evolved the world, and changed how people think, and live. Even the dating system we use is based on the birth of Jesus. The subject of countless books and debates, no other person has had more affect on world history than any other leader or philosophy or political movement.
Bonus Moments: Germany’s invasion of Poland, Declaration of Independence by US, End of Apartheid, Invention of the Internet, Assassination of Caesar, The Battle of Waterloo, Invention of Calculus!




















even though jesus may not have been real, still a huge figure in history
True that! Nice list btw!
Jesus was indeed a real person. even Atheists can attest to that. It has been scientifically proven. Jesus real name was in fact Yshua, Born around 4 BC and died 27 AD. there are historical documents proving this. you are mistaking your thoughts with the Atheistic and satanic belief that there is no god.
If I remember correctly, Yshua means "king" in Hebrew. Jesus's name and Joshua's name was derived from this term.
Has it been scientifically proven? Really? Even if there was a guy called Yshua, what does that have to do with God? Where is the proof that he really performed all these miracles? You are mistaking your thoughts with the Christian belief that just because somebody wrote it in a book it must have happened.
The point is that there was a Jesus. I haven't studied this much, but I think we know that there was this Jewish guy who was killed by the Romans. It says nothing about whether he had any powers or anything, and it's obvious to anyone who thinks about it that a lot of the story of his life is fabricated, but yes, we could prove whether he existed.
ciremelf: What does Atheism have to do with Satanism? Most Satanists obviously believe there is a god – they believe in Satan. Some don't, but there are many religions and sects who don't. You're representing what I hate about Christianity: "If they don't believe what I believe, they belong to the devil!" Besides, Jack didn't say anything about God's existence. He just said he wasn't sure if Jesus existed. Stop making your religion look so bad.
Yeah so it's really up to you if you want to believe in the whole miracles of Jesus thing. There was a man, he had extremely forward and new ideas. Perhaps people were so surprised that they simple gave him a sort of title "Son of God". And the miracles are astonished exaggerations. Just depends there on what you believe him.
IT HAS NOT BEEN SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN!! Come on!
Satan worshippers actually do believe in God, because if there wasn't God there wouldn't be Satan either. Satanists (the followers of Anton Szandor LaVey), on the other hand, don't believe in any supernatural Overlord. They do believe in forces of nature, though, that may sometimes seem supernatural.
I really had no idea of the difference!
Thanks fendabenda!
So Satanists are a kind of nature based animism…. that leaves me mumbling.
Then why it is called Satan-ism.
druids are not satanists, nor the other way around.
Jesus is God. Saying ther is no Jesus is saying there is no God.
Yeah, well anyone who believes in the mythology associated with Jesus is psychotic. It's a mental illness to believe in those fairy tales as reality.
no, there is no evidence confirming the life of Jesus.
Yeshua is a common name(now Joshua), and the closest corollary(a guy named Yeshua who claimed to be a prophet and was executed at an early age for his teachings) lived around 145b.c. Granted, he wasn't the only person that claimed this, and was certainly not the last… We've got homeless people who do it on a pretty regular basis in nearly every city.
No historian who has ever studied the era will say there is proof of a historical Jesus, regardless of their religious beliefs(or lack thereof).
I could understand number one being "Constantine's conversion to Christianity". That's historical.
The world would be a drastically different place if that had never occured.
We have always lived in a world where Jesus was never born.
No, no, no no! Not this argument AGAIN. Go see one of the thousand of other lists where this has been argued and let's not do this again.
Jesus is real.He mows my lawn and takes care of my flowerbed.It's a miracle that he works for so cheap.I think his last name is Sanchez though.
Hey! You have a Jesus too? I love my gardener……………….and so does my wife, but in different ways.
Jesus built my hot rod
I've learned this lesson the hard way, so listen up: There is a convergence of evidence proving that Jesus did indeed exist (Josephus, Pliny the younger, Suetonius etc. (just google "Josephus on Jesus" for a good example)), the only reason we don't know more about him is that he wasn't of royal blood (in a non-spiritual meaning), wasn't a general or a playwright. Plus he didn't even live in one of the important cities of the roman empire (Rome, Athens, Pompeii etc.). So yeah, he did exist.
I was redirected here from your bottom comment. Ive noticed you quoted yourself quoting randall
“I’ve learned this lesson the hard way”
You were the guy that got his stick back then? I remember redirecting one dude to that comment but i didnt remember the list. I remember the guy that learnt the lesson was a bit of a troll, I didnt remember you.
” convergence of evidence”
Classic randall
It's the list about possible resting places of the holy grail…. I have no further comment on that matter
Josephus' line about Jesus is widely believed to be a later addition to the original text, and Pliny's history mentions that "Jews worship a man named Jesus". Which, at the time, would be the proper way to say "These people who followed the Torah(Jews), now have a new religion".
Or "Those crazies over there have a new cult"…
Suetonius' work refers to a person named "Chrestus", not "Christ"(of which there could have been many anyways.)
just the fact that no 1 has so much influence on this discussion board is enough to realize it was one of the most pivotal things that happened to us in history. story or not. you dont see any other numbers striking such debate
JESUS FIRST
bad bad bad
I think i have seen a list like this before. I hate that these lists are always eurocentric… as if china was doing nothing this whole time.
I think at least notible mention should be when Zheng He was removed from command from the chinese navy and Chinas Navy severely reduced about 10 yrs before they met the portuguese
Who the hell gives a crap about one naval officer in one country? If China were to appear on this list, its moment would be Mao's rise to power. The reason being that he transformed the nation from an unregulated agrarian "area" onto the path to the superpower it is today. Even though over 70 million people had to die for it to happen.
No, You are Wrong! You obviously know nothing about Zheng, so I suggest you read up on him before you set fingers to keys again.
Mao was indeed a powerful, even Watershed, personality in China it was the removal ofZheng and theretreat behind it's borders by the new Dynasty that put China in that 'unregulated agrarian' state. If they had not done that China would have dominated World trade to a very similar extent to which it does now.
Cheers
Lee
I think China’s implementation of gunpowder should outclass most suggestions. No gunpowder: no fire arms. Soooo many things wouldn’t have happened without firearms.
Zheng He was ordered to explore the world with his fleet, I believe he was the one that came back to China with a Giraffe from Africa. He sailed through at least South East Asia, India and Africa. Back then (the 1400s), China had the most advanced fleet and sea navigation system in the world.
Due to cultural differences (China preferred trading and vassal states rather than European-style settling/colonising/conquering), the fleets were deemed a huge waste of time and effort.
Emperors changed and the fleet was burned and China closed itself off once again.
Imagine what the world would have looked like if China did not decide to turn its back on expansion. Don't forget that this was 50-70 years before the Europeans even began to sail outside of european borders.
China was doing nothing else the whole time. In terms of the impact of inventions over the years, China has contributed, really, only gunpowder. These lists are always Eurocentric because the world as you see it today was created by Europe. Europe has had and still has a hand in every single matter worldwide. The USA, Canada and Latin America, as they are today, are by-products of European imperialism. The whites in America and Canada are European. The Latins in Latin America are Spanish and Portugese. Europe was the cradle of the modern world. It was born there. All roads lead there. It is the motherland.
While I can agree that the European nations have shaped the world as we know it today since the start of the exploration era, Europe itself was very heavily influenced by eastern cultures before they even set sail in the first place (in areas such as medicine and mathematics for instance, eastern cultures in China and India and the Middle East were way ahead of Europe) .
To say China only invented gunpowder is rather far off, I'm afraid. They invented many things, including a printing press before Gutenberg did. I'd name more of their inventions, but I'm sure you can find the Wikipedia page yourself.
Too bad China's printing press did not form a massive overhaul on religious, social, and financial thought on the whole Asia(no, paper money happens before printing press). China always keeps its advances to itself, influencing little in world history…
Given the brutal fashion the Europeans "shared" their knowledge, it probably wasn't such a bad thing after all.
This is 100% Eurocentric. It doesn't even include the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, Ghengis Khan's invasion of Europe or the rise of Buddha, Confucius or any other Eastern figure. Jesus is #1, but Buddha (who was a real person and not some myth) actually influenced the world as much. Nothing about how Europeans murdered an entire continent's worth of people either. How about the emancipation of slaves? What about the end of colonialism?
This list is clearly done by someone who has very little knowledge of world history.
Very interesting list – I've always been interested in how different the world could be today had a single event hundreds of years ago not happened.
Nice list but pin pointing to only one major section of the planet. Should be a list covering other countries and cultures too in a broader way.
Well go ahead and do that then.
Certainly I would shoreslady. Please do not get offended. Shall be coming soon. Thank you.
I don't know if perhaps the dropping of the Atom Bomb should feature and, linking back to a previous list, maybe even 9/11? The American War of Independence (and I'm English but that changed everything as it led to the birth of a nation that swiftly rose to become a superpower!) surely must feature somewhere and, to a certain extent due to their vast influence reaching from Asia Minor across a vast continent to Portugal, the collapse if the Roman Empire led to a lot of smaller city states-some have developed in countries whilst others have been swallowed up.
Thank you for mentioning the fall of Rome, the birth of America, and the dropping of the Atom Bomb, you saved me the trouble. Also, I would like to offer up my opinion that this list is quite incomplete when regarding other parts of the world and even times in europe. Also I would like to point out the error in assuming that Jesus has had more effect on world history than anyone else; here is proof: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.h…
I think the Atom Bomb should be on the list because it solidified America's standing as the greatest country on Earth in terms of military and scientific might.
Yeah 'cause killing and injuring 300,000 people and burning up cities without being provoked is a real great thing to do!
When I first heard about the bombings it made me feel sick. I mean killing hundreds of thoudsands of innocent people! I do wonder how the murderers who did it could sleep at night!
I never said that dropping two atomic bombs was a good thing. I just said that it proved to the world that America was more powerful than any other country at the time (I think we still are the most powerful). What other country created a weapon that is able to level entire cities to the ground? Besides, you could either have 300,000 civilians die or millions of soldiers who would have died if America had been forced to invade Japan. Plus, the Japanese refused to surrender after the Americans dropped the first bomb. Then, after we dropped the second bomb, a lot of Japanese military officials still didn't want to surrender, but the Emperor of Japan forced them to sign the peace treaty.
When I read vonhohenzollern's comment I got this Simpsons chant stuck in my head:
"Great meaning large or immense, we use it in the pejorative sense"
Agreed. The American independence changed more than the French because the Americans came first. They helped lead to the French revolution. It's just true. Definitely, unquestionably, the bomb should have been on here – or at least splitting the atom should. That was huge. I might suggest the discovery of gunpowder, especially for a non-European event. You're right about Rome, too, though I'd say the creation of Rome would be the point to talk about because they didn't change the world just by falling!
The American war of Independence and the French revolution are very different things though. Of course neither of these events where the first in their kind, as regions and peoples rebelled to their rulers all the time (being Dutch our own war against Spain comes to mind). But it's one thing for a region to break free and another thing all together for a people to overthrow and behead their king, especially in a powerful country such as France was at the time, one of the most iconic of monarchies in a very monarchy-centric Europe.
It was a tough choice between the Rise and Fall of Rome as one of the 'watershed' moments in history and I settled on the Fall as many more people were affected as the Empire, then Republic, collapsed. Also, the events surrounding the demise of Rome convinced me to side with this option i.e-the Sacking of Rome, The Germanic Barbarians/Goths defeated the Roman Legions in Germania and, perhaps most importantly, the Roman attempt at quelling the rise of Christianity and Judaism. Please don't let this turn into a religious debate (can't even mention religion on these boards without someone blowing up with rage) but all these events and, as mentioned in my original post, the smaller states that found themselves alone after the loss of Roman control, it seems the Empire changed more by falling. But, open to debate!
To my mind if we do this kind of list in a hundred years from now, the Internet would rank right up there at number one – for the simple reason that its role in the distribution of ideas and information by that time will have led to the downfall of hundreds of current mainstream ideas – simply because it will allow more people easy access to research and will make it more difficult for any group to hide or misconstrue ideas for their own advantage. Case in point is the stranglehold that the churh has had on society – it has already started to weaken considerably due to more people being able to make contact with other free thinkers and also to facts and theories around the universe/earth's origins. Both aspects that are giving different perspectives on the Bible and thus on Christianity and thus on religion in general…
The generation cycle of new research has speeded up beyond measure already due to more access to more ideas accross the classic divide that used to exist between various research arenas.
The internet has had far less impact on society than say even the telegraph did. Far more of a symptom than a water mark.
While I do agree with you that the internet (or the wide world web) might be #1 in a hundred years, I think it was Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" that lessoned the Church's "stranglehold". The Industrial Revolution also allowed easier flow of different ideas.
I am just rambling here. Don't pay much attention to an engineer when it comes to history.
I hate to say this, but 9/11 should have been on here, it actually has a bigger impact than people give credit for. Now, number 1? NO. Top ten? Maybe.
Well the general rule when studying history is to look at it in perspective. The us had a lot of importance in shaping today’s world landscape. But id think ranking us moments would be enteering ww2, end of ww2 & the different peace conferences (yalta for ex) consolidation as a superpower, the cold war, the bombing of japan (entering the nuclear era). But 9/11 isnt as important. It changed the balance of power in middle east but lets face it, its not THAT important.
I think that it's too early to tell what effects 9/11 will have on the world (as in long term effects). The short term effects are already visible (tighter security, war in Afghanistan, etc.).
Top 20, probably. I mean, look at what's on the list here. Monumentally huge revelations and inventions that had collosal impact on the entire world. 9/11 didn't really change anything forever, except perhaps American foreign policy. Once the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are over, that chapter will be closed, unless, of course, the USA and my own, equally despicable and responsible nation, the UK, start using 9/11 as the basis for an attack against the most peaceful nation on earth: Iran.
Agreed, I_Damien. The event itself impacted the U.S. in a huge way, but I don't know if you'd call it a "watershed" moment in a world view. Most definitely a watershed moment in U.S. foreign policy though.
No.Genghis Khan.
What about when Jamie began Listverse? That's why we're all here. Oh & the first use of the wheel.
are you kidding me? jesus? he was never a real person! and even if he was his birth would hardly be a turning point in history. christianity slowly became popular. it took a little over 400 years for this imagined person to have any influence over the general population… who writes these lists anyways? go do some research
It doesn't matter whether or not it was immediately significant – the fact is the event has shaped the world today probably more so than any other. I am not suggesting Jesus was a real person, however the story of his birth, whether or not it happened, has probably had a greater effect on the world today than any other event in human history.
Just to clear something up here, it was mentioned above as well . . . the existence of Jesus as a historical figure is widely accepted in academic disciplines, including outside of biblical studies. The question is not really is Jesus real – he almost certainly was – but rather do the gospel present an accurate representation of the nature of his life.
Uh-oh, the first "Jesus of Nazareth wasn't even real" person of the day. Jesus WAS a real person. We have significant evidence that he was. While the Gospels may be completely inaccurate (unless one is Christian, and even then it's not certain), Jesus was, in fact, a person.
Now, whether or not he was real or whether or not the Gospels are accurate have no bearing on his importance in history.
Archeologist are not even sure Nazareth existed during the reign of Tiberius, thus at the assumed living period of the Nazarene.
they're pretty sure Nazareth didn't exist until around the 5th or 6th century actually.
2 billion people follow him and his teachings; I think Jesus has had some effect on world history.
2 billion people who can not think for themselves.
Really? I'm only seeing one right now.
I highly doubt there are that many Christians in the world.
Ha! You just made my day. There are 2.1 billion Christians on Earth. See? http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.h…
How many practicing?
You're funny tanman.
I'd say Mohammed deserves a mention in the bonus moments..
without Jesus there would have been no Mohammed. Either way, Constantine is much more integral than both.
the treaty of westphalia perhaps?
womens liberation – and how it made a 1 income family a thing of the past.
it revolutionized to this day how the family dynamic works.
in my opinion i'm torn between our womens lib being a positive or a down right negative.
tipsy
Women liberation or feminism isnt a one time event. It merges slowly over time in different societies. For example, Turkish women got the right to elect and be elected before western women. And in ancient Asian Turks, when Khan is not present, his wife leads the counciul.
Nice list, but I think you left out one of the most important watershed moments of all…THE INVENTION OF ELECTRICITY!
Electricity has always been here. A great many people, over a long period of time, have figured out how to control it. The same has been done with agriculture, water and oil. These are developments, not turning points, or watersheds.
How about the death of Ogedai Khan?
Just as he was poised to complete his conquest of Europe, he died from alcoholism.
Since it was the 70th anniversary last week, how about the Battle of Britain? Or Stalingrad?
The massacre of the 3 legions under Varrus?
The destruction of the Spanish Armada?
The detonation of the first atom bomb, or their use at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Pearl Harbour?
The "official" discovery of America by Columbus?
This is a list of 10 that could easily be a list of 40 or 50 !
Oh and how about "One small step for (a) man… one giant leap for Mankind"
The discovery of the first anaesthetics?
Penicillin, blood groups, the mapping of the human genome, the discovery of DNA?
The abandoning of the use of DDT before it could knock down Malaria in Central and Southern Africa?
Television, Radio, the telephone.
Mass production
Universal suffrage
The real turning point of WWII is in the bonus items, it's the invasion of Poland, that's when it started going to ***** for the Nazis.
The massacre of the 3 legions, isn't historically that important, the romans didn't flee Germany, the germans didn't ally themselves with the gallic tribes (as was feared they would), the romans just changed their strategy and got on with their lives pretty much…(they lost a couple of outposts in the aftermath)
The rest of your points would have been nice inclusions….
“invasion of Poland, that’s when it started going to ***** for the Nazis.”
Neah dude. Its barbarossa. If germany didnt want to build their aryan race they’d have been much better. This policy meant that the russians had to be eliminated, the jewish.
Imagine niels bohr, enrico fermi, teller still living in their countries and germany fighting just the british. I wouldnt be studying mecanique des millieux continus but kontinuumsmechanik. What a horrible language.
The german soviet war was unavoidable in my opinion, waaaaay to big a difference in ideology. Had the nazis not invaded poland (or not put operation barbarossa in place) then the soviets would have invaded us at some point. They should have just gone for France and England and somehow made allies out of the US….in the end the soviets would have still *****ed us…you can't win a land war against russia….
And hey, don't insult my mother tongue….It's not nice
Considering my grandparents were Soviets, I should know how interested the Soviet government as well as the people were in Germany. Absolutely not. As far as any Russian is concerned, Germany is a country where the majority of the population are still nazism-oriented, alcohol-sponges and/or terribly stupid and xenophobic. Reading your comment, Julius, doesn't really change matters. Get your head out of your ass and realize: nobody cares about Germany. I live in Germany myself and I know the racism Germans still have against Russians, so don't use your "soviets would have killed us if we hadn't tried beslaving, raping and killing all of them" excuse. Besides, you should also realize that in Germany there are still plenty of socialists, who admire Karl Liebknecht, Rosa Luxembourg and Clara Zetkin. Guess who those were and how much influence they had on the Bolsheviks (in case you know who they were).
Getting back to the list at hand: Nice list! I agree, it should include the invention of electricity or some events from other corners of the Earth (or the first Atom-Bomb drop), but hey – no list is perfect
Of course, the discovery of America is rather important (teehee), but I see that you've considered other important events and decided which of them were the top ten most important for the people of today as well as tomorrow.
Nah – the invasian of Russia and / or Hitler's declaration of war against the USA were where things started to go wrong.
The loss of the 3 legions meant that large areas of Germania were never fully conquered by the Romans (they were heavily raided in reprisal), whereas their neighbours were, and were heavily Romanised in terms of culture and language.
Nearly 2,000 years of conflict later, we had 2 world wars (and one world cup. Sorry, if you're English you legally have to say that) and the formation of the EU.
OK, that's overly-simplifying the situation, but the massacre was certainly a major contributing factor. Arminius / Hermann was a hero of the nazis, which is kinda ironic considering Stalingrad (don't take your heavily armoured, highly trained troops into close terrain where their equipment and training count for nothing against an inferior but more numerous enemy)
Additionally, this was a serious blow to the Roman Empire – their first serious defeat for over 150 years, and came at the height of their power. Indeed this is sometimes cited as the reason that their power began to wane – the loss of the belief in their invincibility made them more cautious, which was fatal for a civilisation dependant on conquest.
Well they did technically have the ribbentrop molotov pact and stalin already had too much land than he could handle. The russians never were so great at attacking and they could’ve kept poland as a buffer zone and a defence against the a soviet attack is feasible.
Bear in mind that this strategy works only with a reasonable germany that isnt so aryan obsesses. This way all the jewish wouldnt have left and there wouldnt be any need to hunt the poles and the slavs.
“And hey, don’t insult my mother tongue….It’s not nice”
Its just my envy talking. I admire any person that can speak or learn german.
@arsnl: "" I admire any person that can speak or learn german.""
dankeschön, ist es nicht furchtbar schwer.
ironically i find french to be difficult…….but i'm sure youre plenty used to it.
Hmm, some of these (8,6) aren't real turning points, but rather symbolise a turning "time" if you will, the respective revolutions/wars would probably have happened without these moments.
"the Church, too, started a counter reformation; heretics were subject to punishment, torture and death, and books propagating Protestant themes were burned" the counter-reformation consisted of much more than just the usual burning of stuff and people, and the catholics have to thank the Societas Jesu, they still exist…
Also, it's Franz Ferdinand (or Francis Ferdinand, if you must anglicize it), not Ferdinand Francis.
The Berlin Conference was the best thing that happened to Africa.
Yeah I bet the Africans loved it that their continent got traded like a pack of baseball cards dividing it into essentially random parts, without looking for tribal or language barriers and being subjected to some of the most cruel rulers of all time (I'm looking at you Leopold II)
Your posts are getting dumber each day….
No, come on. You clearly don`t know anything about the Scramble for Africa, and what happened. Before us, France, Belgium, Portugal and Germany took over, they were worthless savages with the mentality of Cavemen, they were always at war with each other. And we civilized them. Sure European colonial powers did some bad things there, but Africa need strong and sensible leaders to keep things under control. Just look what happened when we left. They started to kill each other for fun. And Leopold II was a nasty person, but these sort of things were allowed then. And what would you prefer-Leopold II-or Idi Amin and countless African thugs? Even Leopold wasn`t a psychopathic cannibal and bring his country to ruin.
Before the Scramble for Africa, some African civilizations thrived (like the Malinese Empire and Sokoto).
My my. Im gonna be me a slave. Maybe im gonna get me arms cut off. Armacoq. I wonder how this dude survives. I mean he’s got to find a job but what kind of idiot would hire him?
Do you know about Leopold II and about how he made Belgium great, and powerful and about Idi Amin? He mutilated his, wife, kept heads in his fridge, turned Uganda into a dump, (which we`d made rich) said Hitler was a great man, praised the Black September Terrorists, and killed up to 300, 000 people? And have you seen the Congo since Leopold left? To say the country is a hellhole is an understatement. Maybe it`s me-but I`d prefer leopold II, a strong and sensible ruler over Mobotu, a self-centred thug who only cared about himself.
You need to drop the whole "we and us" bullcrap. You should refer to them as the British. You werent there and had nothing to do with anything that happened before you were born. Sorry to be finicky but you can take as much credit for anything that happened as I can – and I aint British.
Leopold II was not a sensible ruler. He turned the "Congo Free State" into a slave state for his own gain. He did not strengthen the country, and part of the reason the country is a hellhole now is because of his actions there and the fact that the country is still recovering from this.
You are aware, naturally, that african slaves were captured by other african tribes, and used up, until Islam moved South from North Africa, and the Bedu offered an alternative market for tribal slaves? That the SPANISH, who were aware of the stocks of slaves the Arabs had, first started exporting them to the New World?
Oh, that's right. It's all the Old English White Guys fault…
it's nice that Africa is now so civilized that tribal men have stopped raping female babies in the belief that it inoculates them against HIV. Oh, wait…
Progressives, is there anything they don't know?
So because slavery already existed in Africa, that makes it alright for Europeans to do it too? What kind of moral code is this?
its not even just that, if africans are doing it to themselves in africa its their fault, but earopeans going to africa, to forcefully take the resources there is one of the bad points in eorpean history, africa has had civilisations and kingdoms since they first began. its amazing how closed minded some people are, the europeans wer succesful in their conquest of africa because of a superior weapon called the gattling gun which was the end product of over a thousand years of constant feaudalistic war in europe, whereas in africa there wer far less wars so the basic tools for killing wer all that wer needed, africa is only in turmoil now because the constant pillaging of their resources has left the impoverished people in every single nation with only one option, and that is to try and get their hands whats left before the rest of the world manges to consume them. this is not directed at lrc but the idiots who seem to think africa was just one big jungle before white people got there.
The storming of the Bastille is there, but no American Revolution? That easily signified the beginning of the end for the age of old imperialism and inspired hundreds of revolutions worldwide from France, to Haiti, to Latin America, but also created one of the most influential nations in history and the most powerful to this day.
Glad to see the Archduke's death is there, considering most of our socio-political atmosphere today is a direct effect of his assassination.
And excellent choice in a #1. No matter what one's view of religion is, it's no doubt that Jesus (and what people have done in his name) has played a huge role in history, whether he'd be happy to know all the things his name was used for or not.
Im pretty imprest that anything that happened in asia or the americas doesnt appear on this list.
Also anything that happened before the 14th century (ex #1). Nothing related to the romans, greeks, egyptians, chinese, indians, muslims etc etc etc.
Im sorry ill sound like brock but this list is mild to say the least.
“Reformation split Europe, and shattered the religious unity of Europe” now here is an example of being thick. Do you not think that greece or russia are part of Europe? What about the ottoman empire or spain’s invasion.
This list doesnt float my boat.
Well, something does. Gutenberg didn't invent printing or movable type. It was invented in Asia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type
To all who believe that this list is too Eurocentric. Think about the power structure of the entire world over the past several centuries… World power has been Eurocentric. Only the past few years have places like China and Brazil become bigger players in world politics. So when we construct a list of big moments in history, it makes sense to include mostly (if not all) Western moments because world history has been largely about the West. Indeed, Post-Modernism, Post-Structuralism, and Post-Colonialism have only recently become serious ways of thought within the university and other research institutions.
Im an european but saying “world history has been largely about the West” is stupid. Keep your ignorance to yourself. Refusing to credit the muslim world or the chinese or the russians is like putting a big red neon sign in front of your window saying you’re daft. Well no. Such a sign would mean you are honest atleast and you accept the way you are.
The Muslims, Chinese and Moguls, despite their "developments", managed to bury whatever advances they may have made with repressive goverments or religion. When the Sultan is too busy raping little boys to use algebra, it's existance is worthless.
It's like Obama and economics. He's heard the word, but it's meaningless when it violates Marxist Dogma. How's that Hope and Change thing doing?
@daxx: what a good waspie you are.
Read the title: watershead moments. Not obama bashing. Bad WASP. Bad bad WASP. Maybe tomorrow Obama bashing. Dont NO. Sit boy. Sit.
Surely we shouldn't only consider the last several centuries when we say moments in History…
Have you heard of Genghis Khan? The Ottoman Empire? Calculus, algebra, or the ALPHABET? The silk highway? The Persian Empire? The rebellion of India? The freakin' SECOND WORLD WAR? Gunpowder? Rockets? The art of war?
To say that the East had no contributions is ridiculous, and beyond ignorant.
Very intriguing and thought provoking! Well done. Could easily be part 1 of several parts.
I'd remove Bastille Day and replace it with The Seven Years War/French and Indian War of 1754-1763. That event was the most consequential political/military event of the 18th century, in that it was one of the few wars in modern human history that was utterly decisive. France's utter collapse in North America had massive consequences, and arguably without the British victory, there would have been no American Revolution, no the French Revolution, no Napoleon, etc. (I could expound on that with about 3,000 words, to but to avoid putting you to sleep, see Fred Anderson's The Crucible of War for a lot more. It's a meaty book, but well worth it.)
Other events would be the dawn of the nuclear age in 1945; and the first Chinese emperor, Qin Shi Huang, under which China started to **become** China about 2,500 years ago.
I don't believe in Jesus and having Jesus as number one under the Christian banner is very hypocritical. Jesus is in Islam, and various other religious beliefs.
Jesus (real or not) is significant as the focal point of the largest religion in the modern world.
It's not about Jesus himself, it's about the massive changes which have occurred because of belief in him.
Since he preached peace, forgiveness and love, these changes have, of course, been extremely violent.
He was essentially a Communist who believed in universal free healthcare.
Well your right on the first part. But saying he's a Communist is like saying he's also a capitalist.
Both Communism and Capitalism did not exist in his time.
But if he were alive, you can be damn sure he'd advocate for the welfare state. Jesus believed in taxes and social justice. Sounds to me like democratic socialism.
I too believe that 9/11 should have been on this list. Also missing was the birth of the atomic age in 1945 with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The birth of rock and roll in 1955 is also noteworthy. No musical genre has ever generated such controversy. And to think people back in the ’50s said it wouldn’t last. The genre is now 55 years old.
Reading about the 14th century black plague is always food for thought. In the 21st century world we often take for granted the sanitary disposal of garbage and other toxic waste. Should those facilities ever cease to function for any extended period of time what happened back in 1347 could happen again.
Wasn`t Martin Luther the man who said "Jews are bigots," and "Islam is a religion for madmen." He might have had a point.
Yes, but most people nowadays don't seem to realize that Martin Luther and Martin Luther King are two different people. He did have a point in some issues, I'm not sure about the ones you mentioned, but for example that priests were allowed to marry, have ***** and have children. Lutheran priests can have ***** with a woman (SHOCK! Horror!!!) whereas Catholic priests are not allowed to. Therefore Catholic priests f*ck underaged choirboys in the ass, if they can't control their desires. Yeah, go on and hate me for saying that, but it is a fact.
Number One: "God created the Heavens and the Earth."
According to Douglas Adams, this has been widely regarded as a bad move, but still…
It's strange how one event changes all the events that come after. I've written a few time-travel stories, so I know. Because some of us made fun of the Talking Donkey list for not being ambitious enough, we may have caused a later list to be TOO ambitious. You could probably expand this list to 10,000 and then people would write in with all the stuff that was left out. If you wrote a list of the Top 10 Watershed Moments since 2004, someone would really gripe if you left out the Australian wildfires.
My own personal candidates would be Buddha under the Bo Tree (still alive last I heard), Asoka gives up on war and spends his life spreading learning and Buddhism, McClellan refuses to attack the South in the Civil War and gives them time to consolidate, Pearl Harbor, Whats-his-name creates the theory of the Rapture in the 1850s, Ball marries Arnaz and suibjects America to years of,"Looo-seee ou got some 'splainin to do?", and the Republican Party goes insane en masse in the 1990s.
I loved the talking donkey list…
Putting Jesus at number #1 is just inviting flame wars, I still find it kind of stupid that he was suppose to make the 'ultimate' sacrifice for us, which involves him dying (albeit in a particularly nasty way, but then so did the robbers either side of him) and then being celebrated and given infinite glory for all eternity… I mean I wouldn't wish that kind of death on anybody but it just seems that the 'ultimate sacrifice' would be if he had to spend eternity in hell for our sins, not eternity in heaven…
There are many ways to think about this, as there are others. We all just interpret. How I would see it that Jesus was a kind of "sign that God cares" – like the rainbow for Noah. Passover sacrifice for Jews – aka, the sacrifical lamb. I think also that pain is relative and the cross actually was a really horrible way to go already, and this 'sacrifice' was acknowledgeable. If you think that to ultimately sacrifice, it doesn't necessarily mean to suffer the ultimate pain for eternity.. When it comes to 'ultimate', I don't know if that word is the main goal in the whole story, actually. Many christian groups don't believe in hell at all – many historians believe it was more of a methaphore. Jesus talked in parabels all the time so I wouldn't deny a thought that maybe his death was 'parabellic' in this way too.
Just a point of view.
The Crusades, The birth of Mohammed, The birth of Israel, Gandhi liberates India, The fall of the roman empire, The founding of the Mongol empire.
These are incredibly important watersheds that you make no mention of.
Maybe number one should make reference to all the major religions not just one.
"Maybe number one should make reference to all the major religions not just one."
Yeah, I see how that would work. A watershed moment lasting over 3000 years, yeah that makes sense.
I think he meant a watershed moment that influenced other watershed moments (Does that make sense?).
Perhaps Judaism, as the first monotheistic religion should be on here. Like Moses leading the Jews.
Landing on the moon and the dawn of the atomic/hydrogen bomb and nuclear age were bigger watershed moments than a couple of these.
It's all relative I guess, people put what matters to them as life defining moments, even if you learn of something way after the fact.
"An ultimatum, known as the July Ultimatum, was issued by Austria-Hungary which was partially accepted, finessed, disingenuously answered or politely rejected by Serbia."
This sounds like a bad multiple choice question. Um, I'm going to go with C, disingenuously answered.
The ultimatum was accepted by Serbia, but Serbia did not comply with all of the TERMS of the ultimatum, and according to the TERMS of the ultimatum, partial acceptance constituted rejection.
Србија!!!!!
But in all seriousness the writer could have at least mentioned the assassin’s name (Gavrilo Princip)
Nice list enjoyed the read Thanks.
We also reached the point of no return here in the RSA on the 10th 0f May 1994, it will never ever be the same again.
You're from the RSA? I just watched a film about your rugby team winning a championship against New Zealand's team. "Invictus". A good film.
Thanks for the reply – the Springboks play the Aussies here today, the kickoff is in an hour and 15 min.
Cheers.
C'mon Wallabies !!!
Yawn
Shut up
What a boring comment.
Christians, notice how he dosent say wether the myth of Jesus had good or bad effects, just he changed the world and the way we live
lol, i can tell this list will be controversial :u
yes, jesus was a smart guy, starting up a popular religion like that. o3o causes so many debates~
but we do kind of need religions, such as christianity, for the people afraid of death that need something to rely on.
Buddhism would be so much better than xtanity for that.
I want to like this list, but I can't help but feel that apart from #1 it's completely arbitrary. I'm also completely biased and believe that if you're going to mention the people who died because of Smallpox and the death of "Ferdinand Francis" (what?) then Jesus deserves maybe a wee bit of a passage referring to the people who have been killed because of his birth. I kind of feel that that is more relevant to the list's subject matter than the fact that we set the year by his birth.
Then studying history would be just a matter of weighting big piles of corpses… there are different ways than that to define how important an event has been. Luckly enough.
I didn't say it was a *****ing competition. I said it was relevant. Don't talk to me about studying history, sunshine.
“Don’t talk to me about studying history, sunshine.”
Oh god tell me you dont study history. You’re like a bull in a china shop and someone that doesnt understand that if you were a wehrmacht officer or a member of HJ that didnt mean you were a memeber of nazi party, shouldnt study history. This is from someone that studies math and engineering.
Ps: im also pretty sure that someone who killed his mistress and got decapitated also shouldnt study history.
I don't study history anymore. I did so at university. As for referring to our conversation on a previous list, you're the one who thinks it's fine to rape children, to discriminate against gays and to encourage the spread of AIDS in Africa. So I'm not going to take any advice from a tit like you. Maybe once you're done studying you should engineer a device to circumvent the flow of *****e out of your head.
I want to like this list, but I can't help but feel that apart from #1 it's completely arbitrary.
I kinda felt this way too. Some are “events” and some are “inventions” (which are also events/moments of course, but in a different context that lends to separate lists). There are a whole slew of inventions that are major watersheds, I think there’s even a LV list about that. As others have mentioned – harnessing of fire and electricity, agriculture, the wheel, languages and speech, controlled flight, bronze/iron/metals age, industrialization, etc etc. seem to me to be much more important or life-changing for everyone on the planet, as opposed to a few of these list items. Perhaps the Jesus entry would’ve been better as “birth of religions” with a mention of Christianity within. I dunno, I’m on the fence about this list. Speaking of which, what about the invention of the fence/wall and building/shelter technology…
“you’re the one who thinks it’s fine to rape children, to discriminate against gays” this is the most serious of allegations. I’ve always said the church had the stupidesg policy on the face of the earth on paedophiles. About the gays thats a funny one. We have all this set of rules that bans us for discriminating against gays. How many cathos do you see in jaim for homophobia?
” you should engineer a device to circumvent the flow of *****e out of your head.”
I am actually good at what i do. Can you say the same about you?
In reverse:
Yes, I am very good at what I do, thanks for asking (incidentally, I do several things and do all of them very well). I'm just one of those people who is naturally very capable.
"I've always said the church had the stupidesg policy on the face of the earth on paedophiles."
Their policy is not just stupid, it's sick, twisted and evil and should be eradicated.
It's a few days since we had that conversation, but if I remember correctly you dismissed everything I said about the seminaries, didn't you? Certainly someone did. Also, you were defending 'the man on the pointy hat what sits on his throne in Rome' (ref: Bill the Butcher) like he was some kind of anti-paedophile crimebuster when in fact he has continuously perverted the course of justice and taken an active role in covering up the problem.
"About the gays thats a funny one. We have all this set of rules that bans us for discriminating against gays. How many cathos do you see in jaim for homophobia?"
I don't know how many Catholics are in jail for homophobia. I do know that they continue to discriminate. Last week in the UK a Catholic adoption agency shut down after being told it would face prosecution if it carried on its homophobic policies. Last month, a Supreme Court judge actually had to take the step of ruling against Proposition 8, which the Catholic league campaigned for. And – most shocking of all, the old man in the pointy hat has said some pretty *****ing evil things about gays since he first donned the red shoes of Popehood
You didn't mention AIDS there. I'd like to know where you stand on that issue.
"Their policy is not just stupid, it's sick, twisted and evil and should be eradicated."
Correct. Luckily im not catholic or they'd get Arsnl stick.
" you dismissed everything I said about the seminaries"
And rightfully so. Its not the seminaries as many other christian denominations have seminaries yet they dont breed paedophiles. For me it all stems from celibacy. A married paedophile is easier to detect (his wife would notice eventually that something is off, just like things happens when gay men are married, also being allowed to have ***** can very much be a good thing, une soupape d'echappement). They also have problems with priest having kids with women and later denying everything. STUPID. Let them marry.
" I do know that they continue to discriminate. Last week in the UK a Catholic adoption agency shut down…" So 3,4,5 people in jail? Fine with me. Arrest the buggers.
"You didn't mention AIDS there. I'd like to know where you stand on that issue."
well ill mention now. Africans of Africa. At least 10 people told me during my life time to jump off a bridge. I DIDNT DO IT.
If you believe everything some Joe tells you then you are my friend deserve a Darwin award.
Hell i just told my BFF for lifeeee to give me 10 euros, Woyzeck. He didnt listen to me, even if he owes me that money. I dont get your point, dude. Cant some bloke say whatever he very well wants?
"Yes, I am very good at what I do, thanks for asking (incidentally, I do several things and do all of them very well). I'm just one of those people who is naturally very capable. "
I hope its not science or history, let it be business, management anything.
PS: id get a bit steamed up if some history dude would correct my math. I take pride in what i do best and i do it the best that i can.
Interesting fact: antibiotics are rapidly losing their efficiency and are going to be extinct within perhaps thirty years. We are set for the biggest drop in the human population due to disease since the Spanish Flu in 1919.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/aug/12/the…
That's depressing…
Don't pay too much attention to the headlines.
For starters, antibiotics can't become extinct, they are not living organisms but molecules. Sure, bacteria are developing immunity to some of the most commonly used ones (namely penicillin), but new ones are always discovered and put out on the market. Just the other day, it was announced that over 100 different antibiotic substances were found on the skin of frogs by a researcher, including one that may kill the penicillin resistant strains of staphylococcus aureus.
Not to be snide, but Latin isn't a living organism either. Nonetheless, I defer – if the rest of your comment is accurate (as I'm sure it is) then it's most certainly good news. The thought that this article may be coming from the medical 'end is nigh' crowd had crossed my mind…
Don't get me started. I have degrees in biochemistry and linguistics.
1) Latin is a dead language, not because nobody uses it anymore but because it isn't evolving since it has no native speakers.
2) Bacteria are pretty simple organisms. The question is not whether we can find new narrow and broad spectrum antibiotics to fight resistant strains of bacteria but rather how soon can we do so to minimize the number of deaths.
I was completely expecting something else for this list. I liked items chosen for 10-2 which kept the list at an okay level and then it was swiftly killed it by number 1.
Historical moments linked with one highly overrated man whose fairy tale has been blown out of proportion for 2000 years.
The list fell short.
I take it you haven't even read the New Testament. Or anything else for that matter. To absent-mindedly call the New Testament a "fairy tale" and Jesus Christ a "highly overrated man" clearly shows how ambitious you are, trying to show how smart and intelligent you feel yourself to be by denying the book that contained moral tales befitting even today's humanity and refusing to acknowledge the man – whether Jesus existed or not remains debatable, of course – who first presented to us a concept which was used much later in the October Revolution (as well as several other Revolutions) and is the base upon which Socialism, Communism and Individualism had been founded: namely, materialism. Not just materialism (considering Aristotle, Plato, Socrates and a few other philosophers of ancient Greece as well as Rome had taken advantage of yet-unnamed materialism), but even dialectical materialism. Karl Marx himself denied discovering either dialectical materialism or the concept of socialism (or communism, for that matter), stating that the two people who influenced him and his ideas most were Jesus Christ and Aristotle – as Marx believed, not only was Jesus a real historical figure, but Jesus might have studied the works of Aristotle and Socrates and may had been inspired by their ideas and concepts.
Which brings me to an other point: : the writing of "Das Kapital" certainly was a very important mark in the history of economy,as this book includes every slightest detail, point, variation and influence of the acquiring of capital gain (the focus-point of capitalism and imperialism). Of course, the complexity of the aforementioned book has deterred many people from reading it, and it may not belong on this list, but it's certainly worth an honorable mention ( at least, an honorable mention made by me, hehe).
Actually I have read it. Reason number one why I don't believe anymore. I don't flaunt my superiority (or lack thereof) or intelligence (hardly) or anything for that matter. I'm stating my opinion…which I'm allowed to do.
It's a book of fairy tales with morals to the story in each. Nothing more. If that is was people want to follow or believe, fine. Just don't expect me to without proof positive which so far no one has provided. I'm not a blind faith person nor a sheep.
As for Jesus being a real person?…yup. I believe he was. There is much documentation on his life. However … was he divine? Hell no.
It doesnt matter whether you personally believe in the Gospels or whether you personally believe in JC´s divinity. The fact is that the birth of this man (divine or not) has had HUGE effects on the history of the world. The religion that sprouted in his name has shaped history in profound ways.
So yeah, the birth of JC is a huge moment which has influenced history much more than, say, the signing of the constitution.
You do realize that you're agreeing with him, right?
“Here we go again, we’re on the road again/We’re on the road again, we’re on the way to paradise”…apparently not.
Hey i respect your views about the fairy tales but i still dont understand how a human being cant grasp the effect religion has had on humanity. Any type of religion or confesion.
In the early days it was part of what people defined themselves. It has helped construct empires it has helped solidify power it has created wars and it has been the connection between a rulers greed and power and the peoples desire to follow him.
I really cant imagine how the greeks, bulgarians, serbs, romanians (hungarians for a short time) could have survived ottoman rule without the aid of religion as it was about the only way to unite the simple people. A greek peasant didnt know about greek identity or about aristotle or pythagoras. He knew that his dad gave him this legacy: language, religion and land and he has to protect it.
How could have the jewish communities survive hundreds of years of persecution from the british from the spanish from the russians with this superglue to keep their communities still working. Thats how it survived during the holocaust, thats how its thriving today. Cuz back then even if you were agnostic or an atheist if the nazis persecuted the people you came from you became jewish again.
You say you come from russia yet your comment shows me how little understanding of russian culture you have. Of russian history. Do you think a group of people scattered all around eastern or southern europe could have created an empire the size of the russian empire with influence in serbia or bulgaria with out the aid of orthodoxy. Do you think that a small patches in moscow or kiev could have spirelled in an empire that would reach alaska with out the common soldier thinking it was God’s wish?
Geesh oouchan is the sense of community such a difficult thing to understand. A community needs identities. In the old days it was religion now its patriotic identities. What killed and united 300 years ago, kills and unites today. Protestants, catholics, orthodox, muslims, hindu, buddhist, jewish yesterday.
American, russian, british, german patriotes today.
My religion was better than your yesterday, my citizenship is better than yours today.
He just chose jesus cuz arguably its the easiest one and everybody has heard of him.
I can grasp that it had an effect on humanity. Was it worth it? No.
As for being Russian…I do know what it did to my people so don't tell me what I know and don't know. Apparently you only see the one side. I know it has done good…but it has done MORE EVIL.
How about that I can form a sense of community without religion? Is that too difficult for you to understand? It has to be since you brought it up. Communities can form with or without religion. It's easy.
All I said was that putting a man who has a fairy tale life in at number one doesn't jive with the rest of this list. History with mythology. Not the same.
I was was giving you *historical* arguments about the effect of religion on the evolution of society. You started on that idea (“Historical moments linked with one highly overrated man”) and i wanted to explain the validity of his choice.
Now your new comment you reply with things related to the validity of religion, to the positive or negative. (today’s hot topic. Religion: Good or bad? Please debate). And all from a global view point. Not personal. Im not interested in this (they’re actually boring as i gain no new knowledge of this that interest me).
“How about that I can form a sense of community without religion?… Communities can form with or without religion. It’s easy.” (all you need is love…all you need is love)
Hey i was talking about YOUR sense of community, i was talking about past communities. You know the world not just filled with oouchanovicis or oouchanopoulos or oouchanskis (or with arsnlovicis etc). So history is not about you or me or what how you or i think things should have been. No. History is about facts and i told you some.
“History with mythology. Not the same.” i thinl my first comment proved it was a watershead moment.
“As for being Russian…I do know what it did to my people so don’t tell me what I know and don’t know.”
Ill make a wild guess here (i shouldnt since i dont know you but ill to see if i fail or succeed). From the way you write (and from some comments ive read from you) id say you’ve lived for quite a long time in the US (or canada). You master english like only a person thats been there for quite a while. Maybe you’ve lived in russia as a child but russian influences on your way of thinking are minimal. Id say you never lived for any significant amount of time in a communist country, you’ve never EVER lived in an ex communist country. So saying “your people” doesnt mean anything. Your people isnt the russian people. I’ve got more connection with the russians. My folks had to learn russian and ive got friends (and more than that) that come from the ex ussr. Ive been told what repression people from ussr (and the eastern block) that expressed their religion or beliefs or opinions had to suffer.
I know its cool for americans to say they’ve got funky origins but just cuz you ate borsch or pashka for easter that doesnt make you russian.
Ps:im terribly sorry if you are an english teacher in moscow, but ive never had that impression.
Nice personal attack. You don't know me and everything you guessed is wrong.
I wasn't talking about religion as a whole….but one man who billions think is divine and holy. That is why it' doesn't belong on the list. Now if the author was talking about religion as a whole and not just ONE of them, then it would be more historic.
"History is about facts"…..you said it first.
"Ill make a wild guess here…"
…which is always followed by a straw man argument.
How about backing your "wild guess" with evidence? Discourse *****ysis is truly fascinating. Give it a try.
PS. I know people who grew up in the Eastern Bloc who would put most native speakers' command of English to shame. Yes, some people have a tremendous ability to acquire new languages.
“Nice personal attack. You don’t know me and everything you guessed is wrong.” im not wrong till proven wrong. Its not personal btw.
“I wasn’t talking about religion as a whole….but one man who billions think is divine and holy” well ill give you and addenda: moses, mohammed, buddha. Are we fine now? Everything’s a fairy tale that STILL influenced humanity.
“you said it first” im pretty sure im not the first one that said that line.
You say im wrong so apparently you have lived, studied in the ussr and/or russian federation. What strikes me the most is that you’ve seen what terrible damage that communist and forced industrialization brought to your society and STILL you are still bothered by religion. Ill get personal now just cuz i do like you a bit since you’re russian thru and thru
You and i, we’re both the same. We havent seen an orthodox saying I am peaceful president and then bomb cambogia (spelling). We havent seen an orthodox bomb two very tall towers cuz he will get into heaven. We havent seen an orthodox clergyman burn korans cuz they are lies, we havent seen orthodox masses watching a nut at a tv claiming he can cure any desease and we can all talk to Jesus.
Our parents saw the commies come on our granparents land and say this is the land of the people. You dont own this land anymore. If you dont give it up we’ll kill you. If you dont work on this land FOR US we’ll send you in our wonderful gulags. Our parents were sent from the countryside to live in commie blocks where walls were thick as paper and neighbors would hear them when they were having fun. Btw no appartment had more than 3 rooms right? Do you remember? And they were forced to work in those dreary grey factories for a small wage. If someone wanted to baptise their kid they had to fear the commies. We were taught in school that religion is bad and we should never talk about it. We saw kids beaten up cuz they told their teacher they went to church for easter.
Im not religious but i am AMAZED that every time you say religion is evil, that you dont get flashbacks. I do. I believe in people should decide what they should believe in where they should live work and what they should think. Not you and not me or any commie.
I am AMAZED you dont put personal experience before the crusades, the talibans, the glen becks of the world.
I am AMAZED simple christians, muslims, hindu, buddhists hurt you more than all the commies that sent people to siberia via tomsk or lublyanka for their religious or political beliefs.
Thats why i call BS that you are living in russia or have such a great soviet experience.
Wow…you got all that from my little comment? How wrong you can be. I made a opinion and you go over half-cocked.
I won't even address your outright foolishness. I'll leave that up to you since you know so much.
Oh yeah….it was personal. You assumed you know so much about me. How about leaving ME out of this.
All I did was state my opinion….and you write a book about knowing me. How is that not personal?
Personal for me means targeting you for a specific reason (your dad gave me a slap over the head, you stole my icecream when i 5, or yesterday i still like icecream). Thats personal. I wrote you at first cuz you didnt think them #1 had a reason to be here and i have a different opinion.
After that I made the assumption that know very little about soviet and russian society, that you never experienced it, that you've lived too long in a western society to remember anything. You said i got *everything* wrong. So i assumed that no, you ARE russian, you lived like any russian in a soviet society, so i wanted us to go on a little stroll down memory lane, i wanted us to remember why hearing "religion is evil" is something that hurts (just like hearing words like property of the people, imperialistic arrogance etc). Unlike the majority of people here (65% visitors here are from the US), we should know what oppression means and we know that great ideas like ("imagine no religion' or how great would it be if everybody were equal) have TERRIBLE consequences when applied.
But again you refuse to say what type of russian you are. So ill just assume (by the quality of your english and some stories you said that are related to the US and the fact that you so almost never mention russia) that you are very much americanized so please keep your comments, related to russian communities and the way the survived during the soviet period, to yourself.
PS: Im more freaking russian that you are.
I don't have to justify who I am personally to you anymore than you to me. Yet you continue to attack me because I won't give a stranger personal info about myself over the internet. I'm now going to ask you to leave me alone and stop stalking me.
"you continue to attack me"
It cant be further from the truth, I havent used an abusive tone nor have i cursed. Im not from the stasi, sb, securitate or kgb 7th directorate.
Cheers
Look up the definition of 'ad hominem'. You are attacking the messenger, not the message.
You got it.
Thank you for that.
@oouchan and logis
Oh im very sorry. I wasnt making an argument. What i was writing was something emotional.
20 years after ww2 it would have been hurtful for an american to hear from a fellow citizen say that the nazis has some good ideas. And now its hurtful to hear someone,who previously said my russian people, propagate ideas that we've heard time and time again under the communist regime. I dont care about your 1st amendment rights or about logical fallacies. Its hurtful.
Now lets end this thread
"20 years after ww2 it would have been hurtful for an american to hear from a fellow citizen say that the nazis has some good ideas."
Ah! So you're saying that questioning the New Testament's historical accuracy is tantamount to claiming Nazi Germany is misunderstood?
Ever heard of Goldwin's Law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
"I dont care about… logical fallacies."
Obviously.
Oh, and first amendment rights? Sheesh. Don't assume we're all American. After all, this website isn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Frater
Once again, Thank you.
i am in no way shape or form getting involved in this discussion.
however, i have one question for ya…..
@oouchan: ""I was completely expecting something else for this list.""
–what, exactly, were you expecting?
i read the title, and came up with 7 of them ( i also thought of telegraph, 9.11, wheel, and discovery of electricity — and didnt think of 10, 7, and 1).
i was just wondering what you had in your head that was completely different.
Something more powerful, like penicillin or the internet along with the wheel and electricity like you mentioned. It seemed as though the list maker chose items that are significant but not so much so that it would overshadow number one. Felt off is what it was.
One person I talked with about this list mentioned these items:
"Writng, archimedes water screw, the fall of rome, gunpowder, the signing of the constitution, the magna carta, the dropping of the a-bomb, penicillin, kepler's scientific discoveries, goddard's creation of the rocket, the wright brother's airplane, edison's light bulb and tesla's ac generators."
All of these are quite more powerful than say numbers 10, 6, 3, 2 and 1.
yeah — i had a similiar idea — and later, thought of most of the ones you listed. i thought this list would have a follow-up. you know, like 65% of the lists do.
of course, somewhere, somehow, i got the idea (and it *probably* just jumped into my head for no discernable reason) that some of the disclusions, were not included, because if you have 10 more watershed thingys, then you will have 11-20 if you dont ***** up the first version. the good news, is you can read both (or all 3 or whatever) 8at a later date*, and it'ss quite comprehensive. the bad news: they individualistically seemincomplete until the last installment. this isnt like godfather, where you are cool with the end of the first story, anticipating the release of the next part. it's more like the jackass movies, where you watch the first one and think to yourself — yanno — "they didnt even pull the 3 most retarded stunts i can think of"……and "what a silly movie"….and other words…like…that
–then the new one comes out, and does one of the stunts you thought of, and you are like…."cool!" –then you hear of a third in preproduction, and your thought is –"all that other ***** was really dumb — i wonder how they are gonna top themselves
.
Why is Jesus always depicted with long hair and a beard? I wanna see him smooth shaven with short back and sides.
Historically, he would have long, black hair and a beard. Just because you "want" him to look a certain way doesn't mean it should be so. I "want" to say that George Washington was a bodybuilder, doesn't mean he was a bodybuilder.
but — man — he didnt say he *was* clean shaven, he just said he wanted to see him that way, just like you said you'd *want* to see george wash. as a bodybuilder. your comment actually added validity to wally's. i'd personally want to see jesus as a bodybuilder, and george washington with a short back and sides, but i'm not saying either of them *were* those things.
How about rocking a fro and a *****-star 'stache? That would be pretty awesome.
The earliest known depictions of Jesus, found in the Roman Catacombs, had him clean shaven with short hair being that it was the most popular style amongst Romans.
do you happen to have a link for this, or know of one?
i am not saying that because i dont believe you (like all those people who scream for "sources" after something they dont agree with has been posted) — i'm just asking b/c i'd like to see that, and i have too much ***** to do to search for it tonight.
Go see for yourself in the Roman Catacombs…
or check Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depiction_of_Jesus
Too much ***** to do tonight? How long did it take you to type that paragraph? Took me 2 seconds to find the article.
—just by looking at it, i'd say it took me 2 min…..3 min tops. of course, there was a bad bad bad storm here, playing hell with the server (and also the splitter the wireless is connectedd to). basically, i was reading info on my mobile, and writing stuff off-line, logging on for a couple minutes at a time, uploading things, sending them, then back to off-line). those other things included a proposal for a research project relating to my dissertation, helping a friend with her paper (she does not know apa style very well), emailing my mom about her upcoming wedding, cold-writing an article for the new orleans paper (today is the 5 year anniversary of hurricane katrina hitting land), and writing text for a book i'm working on for a local college's "history of psychology" course. unfortunately, i didnt really have time to explain all this either.
(this post took me an iota over 3 min — so the one you asked about, above, waqs surely less than that).
i do thank you for the link, though — i was interested. good lookin' out.
i checked it before starting this post. — the first pic looks like chris robinson and chino moreno had a kid. the third one down, the baptism, is more of what i had in mind. i've seen the shroud picture before — and the ethiopian image? — very very interesting
again, thanks much
No problem. I guess I'm spoiled with my 100mb/s line.
PS. I wish I was allowed to write the textbook I use in my lectures because the one the department has chosen for us is crap.
witcharachne and oliver – right on.
Christian Blue – knobhead.
"Even the dating system we use is based on the birth of Jesus"
I was dating this girl and my girlfriend was not agreeing that what we were doing was based on the birth of Jesus. Now this list will make her see the point.
ee heh heh eh!
i liked that, man
This could have been such a great list *sigh* too many grammatical errors, doesn’t even look like its been edited. Franz Ferdinand was not called Ferdinand Francis. I liked the topics, but the content wasn’t great
sweet
Solid if safe list. Things that could be added are; the sinking of the Spanish Aramada, the mass revolts throughout Europe in 1848, the invention of the repeating rifle and machine gun, devolopment of the tank, the Paris Peace Coference, the birth and rise of Muhammod and Islam, 9/11, invention of radio, etc, etc, etc.
Damn, I have to work on a 'part 2' for this list now….
Um, it was Franz Ferdinand, not Ferdinand Francis.
Any point before that, the religion could have died out and the world would've moved on.
If only.
OMG. Are you the oouchan from the reasonable faith forums?!
I've visited a few times.
I'm crowe
AAAAaaand I love Yaoi too!
yay!
funny running into you here.
lern something new everyday.
'Cause knowledge is power. Yeah!
The invention of fire was pretty much a watershed moment in history. Farming too.
The neolithic revolution (transition from hunter/gatherer societies to agriculture) and the discovery (!) of the uses of fire were defining moments in our cultural evolution but can't be narrowed down to a single moment.
The neolithic revolution was the single most important event in history. Humans learned how to preserve and grow food, and could therefore settle down, found cities, create civilizations, and go to war. Without the neolithic revolution, every event on this list would be obsolete.
It's a pity that number 1 is not actually historical fact.
Except it's almost universally believed Jesus existed, whether you believe what he did or not. Fool.
No, it's not. Maybe that is said by the vox populi, but it's far from the academic truth. You know who IS historical fact? Muhammad.
May I add Viagra to this list? After the invention of it, there are once again hope for a bunch of old farts who wanted to but could not get it up….
I was SO real! Thank you for including me in your list. Woyzeck, you are mostly right, but my bigger impact is that lots of kids get presents on my birthday, not that they set the year by it (which, incidently’ they have gotten the date wrong, but no matter. And also, the list was good. Taash, if you cannot overlook a few errors for the greater message of the list, then you are dumb. We hate grammarnazis (especially St. Peter). However, my Dad creating the heavens should have been there, but I’m biased.
wtf?
Is JFrater Jesus?
Finally i get to pose you a question J.C.
Can you please explain what do you meant by :
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
'Cause i myself had a hard time triyng to explain these words to Armadillotron. Thanks
You don't sound like the normal JFrater?
seconded — completely different writing style…….
I'd like to thank you for inventing *****. Come up with anything else lately?
It would have been nice to mention the Battle of Lepanto 1571.
The beginning of the end for the Ottoman Empire.
Also it would have pleased all those Whineys complaining about the list being too europe-centric.
To give an example it is impossible for me to think out of my form/shape/nature of my mind, this forma mentis being forged by a european culture thus coming from european history.
If i had to write about history i would choose the one of Europe, simply because what shaped my culture is my people's history. Even so, of course, the rest of the planet obviously concurred to shape it in many ways.
You're right, either the Battle of Lepanto or the Siege of Vienna would have been good inclusions. Had the holy league lost one of those 2 battles, a large part of Europe (if not all) would be speaking turkish or arabic right now.
Plus, the holy league is an awesome name for an alliance. Makes me think of a religious superhero team
Right! If i were up against the Holy League i would pee in my pants AND socks!
Holy Toledo… its Captain Crucifix… run for your lives…!!!
Hey there’s also the persian invasion of greece. Thats a big moment right there.
And sadly the Trojan wars. Now thanks to that we have trojan horses.
The biggest turning point, as another poster commented, is the internet. The reason for this is that it is a "pull" medium, rather than a "push" medium. In the past, all mass media was of the "push" variety. Somebody controlled the content….an editor decided which stories would be published in a newspaper, programmers would choose which programs were to be broadcasted on radio and TV, etc.
The internet is a "pull" medium. If you want some information on an obscure topic, you can pull it at your convenience. Also, if you want to publish information, you don't have to go through the controllers.
Of course, that means that the most brilliant of men are now equal to the craziest of whackjobs when it comes to equality of access….as the comments section of this, or any other blog, will attest.
Oh, I can just see the controversy coming on this one. I agree with it. But there's plenty of other Biblical stuff that could have been listed somewhere. The Ten Commandments, the Great Flood, etc.
It's a list of watershed moments in history, Flamehorse.
The Great Flood didn't happen? That's news to me. The Ten Commandments have no bearing on modern political law? That's news to me.
The Great Flood didn't happen as it says in the Bible, no. The Ten Commandments only have bearing on modern political law in the respect that they quickly sum up several basic rules (do not kill people, do not steal) which have existed in every successful society. The Bible is not their originator and the story of how they were written is, historically speaking, a fabrication.
You're learning a lot today, Flamehorse. Knowledge is a treasure.
The Great Flood didn't happen? That's news to me.
That’s what happens when you believe in something blindly.
Oh boy, you are in trouble now!
You see, it's ok to say just about anything or believe anything you want to unless that belief says something positive about Jesus, The Bible or Christianity.
I don't have a problem with Flamehorse or anyone else saying good things about Christianity so long as those things are true. So you can take your butting in and ram it up itself.
You're the one butting in, I was replying to Flamehorse. Since you brougt up, some people here, including myself, take The Bible as truth. Going by your logic it would be impossible to say good things about The Bible, Jesus or Christianity since you don't believe that they are true.
Well that's a challenge for you, sunshine. But seeing as how your comment was *****ing obviously referring to the conversation already in progress, you were butting in.
You can "take the Bible as truth" all you want, but call a spade a spade. It isn't a historical document. If you claim it to be true, then be prepared to be splashed in the face with a refreshing burst of fact.
I agree with all you say, especially with regard to the need of a follow-up list… but I can't resist pointing out that whilst in the process of bemoaning grammatical errors, you made a grammatical error of your own… "alot". Brilliant! ; )
(I'm assuming this was all an elaborately laid out trap, designed to snare an unwitting grammar Nazi as myself… was it not?).
My trap was not laid to ensnare you; it was laid so that I could find you (us grammar Nazis need to stick together, you know!).
Consider me found… and glad not to be the fly in your ointment.
In actual fact, I can usually resist pointing out people's linguistic misdemeanours… it's just that yours was veritably sublime. Bravo!
Hypocrisy = Hilarious
haha ……..
…kind of like the guy recently, who was *****ing about "gramatical" errors and spelling?
(although….i know this was a vanhoho test to see who was paying attention)…..
that cracked me up … only becasuse it would be like me *****iing about people using correct capitalisation….
or about spelling *****iing crooectly……..
or …..spelling crooectly……………crooectly…………
….or using my 'period" key properly……
I actually agree with Jesus being first, but I was surprised that the black death was not higher on the list (I would have put it at number two). As the list mentions, it planted the seeds for entrepreneurship and thus capitalism and the renaissance and in that sense was extremely important, but its significance actually extends further. Because of its influence on the materialization of capitalism and the renaissance, it basically influenced the entire development of modern society. For example, the apocalyptic outcome of the plague brought into question the legitimacy of the church, and thus was partially responsible for the protestant movement (mentioned on the list). This sort of challenge of authority lay the foundation for the scientific revolution and the enlightenment, the two most significant movements in recent history.
Nice list, though I don't necessarily agree that these represent the "Top Ten".
I would definitely include the successful laying of the transatlantic cable in 1866 — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_telegr… — since it represented the FIRST time in the history of the world that (nearly) instantaneous communication was possible between two continents, separated by an ocean. (Easy to take that type of thing for granted in the satellite/cellphone age.)
Wow, you put Jesus at number one!! That is awsome!! Even though I’m sure you knew people would have a problem with it you did it anyway! As a Christian I sincerely thank you for this!
Yeah. Coz it was a personal favour to you, man. I hope you appreciate it. Don't expect anything for your birthday though.
HA HA!! Coincidentally, my birthday is tomorrow…I'm serious!
I would have thought that something to do with astronomy or space exploration might have cracked a mention here. What about Galileo (or Simon Marius, depending whom you believe) observing the four major Jovian moons in 1610… and in the process irrefutably determining that everything in the Universe does not, in fact, revolve around the Earth?
Also, no D-Day? Forgive me if I am wrong… but I thought that June 6th 1944 marked the beginning of the end…?
Mine is a bit different:
1. Printing Press. (none of the following without it).
2. Discovery of America
3. Luther. (no Newton or Halley without him).
4. Declaration Of Independance. (no Bastille Day without that).
5. Not so much the invention of the steam engine, rather the first time someone figured out how to run a drive shaft off a smaller version to a milling machine, metal lathe, or loom. (about 1805).
6. General Anasthesia and Bacteriology. (made people live much longer more pleasant lives).
7. Steam travel; train and ship. (people no longer spending entire lives in a single locale).
8. W. Taylor's Theroy of Scientific Management. (Manufacturing Process available for the first time to anyone who wishes to pursue it).
9. Henry Ford's production line. (luxury goods for everyone; consumerism moves into adulthood).
10. Jobs + Gates + Internet. Dust is still stirred on this one. Let's see where it takes us.
“General Anasthesia”
All armies did terrible things. Im sure your general had his faults too.
Heh, I'm sure. Since Dimethyl Ether has been around for centuries, I suppose keeping himself hidden was one of the worst of those "terrible things."
who said fire was an invention? That’s like saying: newton invented gravity.
Right right mama, it is like saying that Chuck Berry invented Rock'n'Roll!
I love that… whilst rock 'n' roll has always been around us, Chuck Berry was the first to understand it and harness its power…? Genius.
That was a pearl.
Anyway i went to see the old man live on stage month ago…. i tell you he's too old a man for the stage. *sigh*
Fire isn't an invention, that's true. But different people have invented methods of starting or continuing a fire and I think you might find something there that would count. It's dicey, though…
Decent list. Wouldn't the death or rebirth of Jesus be more important than his birth.
Possibly his death, but there's no historical evidence of his rebirth. That's religious speculation.
nice list. . . there are lot's of watershed moments but you picked the best ones.