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8 Atrocities Committed in the Name of Religion

Throughout history religion has been used as an excuse, or driving force, for some of the worst atrocities imaginable. From pre-history to modern history, religion is, for many people, just an excuse to kill other people. This list highlights eight of the worst atrocities (but not necessarily the top 8).


8

Buddhist Burma

Buddhist

Human sacrifices were still occurring in Buddhist Burma in the 1850s. When the capital was moved to Mandalay, 56 “spotless” men were buried beneath the new city walls to sanctify and protect the city. When two of the burial spots were later found empty, royal astrologers decreed that 500 men, women, boys, and girls must be killed and buried at once, or the capital must be abandoned. About 100 were actually buried before British governors stopped the ceremonies.

7

Thuggee Murders

Thugstrangle

Members of lndia’s Thuggee sect strangled people as sacrifices to appease the bloodthirsty goddess Kali, a practice beginning in the 1500s. The number of victims has been estimated to be as high as 2 million. Thugs were claiming about 20,000 lives a year in the 1800s until British rulers stamped them out. At a trial in 1840, one Thug was accused of killing 931 people. Today, some Hindu priests still sacrifice goats to Kali.

6

Mountain Meadows Massacre

Mountain-Meadows-Massacre-Iii

The Mountain Meadows massacre was a mass killing of the Fancher-Baker wagon train at Mountain Meadows in Utah Territory on September 11, 1857, by a group of Mormons and Paiute Indians. The Arkansas emigrants were traveling to California shortly before Utah War started. Mormons throughout the Utah Territory had been mustered to fight the invading United States Army, which they believed was intended to destroy them as a people. Initially intending to orchestrate an Indian massacre, two men with leadership roles in local military, church and government organizations, Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, conspired for Lee to lead militiamen disguised as Native Americans along with a contingent of Paiute tribesmen in an attack.

The emigrants fought back and a siege ensued. Intending to leave no witnesses of Mormon complicity in the siege and avoid reprisals complicating the Utah War, militiamen induced the emigrants to surrender and give up their weapons. After escorting the emigrants out of their fortification, the militiamen and their tribesmen auxiliaries executed approximately 120 men, women and children.

5

The Inquisition

Inquisition

The Medieval Inquisition is a series of Inquisitions (Roman Catholic Church bodies charged with suppressing heresy) from around 1184, including the Episcopal Inquisition (1184-1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s). It was in response to large popular movements throughout Europe considered apostate or heretical to Christianity, in particular Catharism and Waldensians in southern France and northern Italy. These were the first inquisition movements of many that would follow.

Torture was used after 1252. On May 15, Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull entitled Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors. The Inquisitors were forbidden to use methods that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death. One of the more common forms of medieval inquisition torture was known as strappado. The hands were bound behind the back with a rope, and the accused was suspended this way, dislocating the joints painfully in both arms. Weights could be added to the legs dislocating those joints as well.

The organization is still active today under the name of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Prior to becoming Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Ratzinger was the head of the congregation.


4

The Witch Hunts

Salemwitchtrial-E

When Puritans settled in Massachusetts in the 1600s, they created a religious police state where doctrinal deviation could lead to flogging, pillorying, hanging, cutting off ears, or boring through the tongue with a hot iron. Preaching Quaker beliefs was a capital offense. Four stubborn Quakers defied this law and were hanged. In the 1690s fear of witches seized the colony. Twenty alleged witches were killed and 150 others imprisoned.

3

Roman Persecution of Christians

The Christian Martyrs Last Prayer By Leon Gerome

Christians were first, and horribly, targeted for persecution as a group by the emperor Nero in 64 AD. A colossal fire broke out at Rome, and destroyed much of the city. Rumors abounded that Nero himself was responsible. To divert attention from the rumors, Nero ordered that Christians should be rounded up and killed. Some were torn apart by dogs, others burnt alive as human torches. Over the next hundred years or so, Christians were sporadically persecuted. Then in the mid-third century, emperors initiated even more intensive persecutions. This, “The Great Persecution”, is considered the largest. Beginning with a series of four edicts banning Christian practices and ordering the imprisonment of Christian clergy, the persecution intensified until all Christians in the empire were commanded to sacrifice to the gods or face immediate execution. This persecution was to be the last, as Constantine I soon came into power and in 313 legalized Christianity.


2

Aztec Human Sacrifice

Aztec Sacrifice4

The Aztecs began their elaborate theocracy in the 1300s and brought human sacrifice to a golden era. About 20,000 people were killed yearly to appease gods — especially the sun god, who needed daily “nourishment” of blood. Hearts of sacrifice victims were cut out, and some bodies were eaten ceremoniously. Other victims were drowned, beheaded, burned or dropped from heights. In a rite to the rain god, shrieking children were killed at several sites so that their tears might induce rain. In a rite to the maize goddess, a virgin danced for 24 hours, then was killed and skinned; her skin was worn by a priest in further dancing. One account says that at King Ahuitzotl’s coronation, 80,000 prisoners were butchered to please the gods.

1

Islamic Jihads

Jihad1 380

Islamic jihads (holy wars), mandated by the Koran, killed millions over 12 centuries. In early years, Muslim armies spread the faith rapidly: east to India and west to Morocco. Then splintering sects branded other Muslims as infidels and declared jihads against them. The Kharijis battled Sunni rulers. The Azariqis decreed death to all “sinners” and their families. In 1804 a Sudanese holy man, Usman dan Fodio, waged a bloody jihad that broke the religious sway of the Sultan of Gobir. In the 1850s another Sudanese mystic, ‘Umar al-Hajj, led a barbaric jihad to convert pagan African tribes.

This article is licensed under the GFDL because it contains quotations from the Wikipedia articles: Mountain Meadow Massacrew, and Medieval Inquisition. Other sources: Religion’s Death Toll, by James A. Haught [1990]

Listverse Staff

Listverse is a place for explorers. Together we seek out the most fascinating and rare gems of human knowledge. Three or more fact-packed lists daily.

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  • L

    Actually, Bob, I cant think of a single atrocity done "in the name of" atheism. I guess you could possibly successfully argue that those killed "in the name of" Communism could MAYBE be considered as such, but I cant for the life of me think of a time when thousands of people were killed solely in the name of Science.

    Religion, regardless of the flavor, has always had the power to unite people. You don't like the man in the village over, and wish him dead, and you need to rally the troops? Tell your tribe that God wants the enemy dead. You don't even really need a reason! The Magical Sky Wizard (whichever one you chose) can't be argued with! It is the ultimate power and means of control on a social level. It unites the people under one banner and gives them a sense of purpose, along with immediately validating any behavior (no matter how nasty and out of character) as OK.

    "Oh dear, I feel sortof bad about killing all the women and children during that battle. I hope I can feel better about it… and my leaders say that it is OK. Why is it OK? Well, because God said it was OK. Ah, well, there's the rationalization. Even Granny can't get mad at me for beheading all those children, and raping the mothers. They didn't believe in the same God as us, so they aren't really humans. I am a holy, just man with high social standing now!"

    Religion is the ultimate rationalizer.

    • joebin

      I don’t see where science equates to atheism. Not all scientists are atheists. What you are describing is science that was funded and pushed by political tactics. Any tool of destruction like military tech and the atomic bomb were manipulated by scientific achievements, sure. But it was the government’s interest to create destructive tools, not the scientists (atomic bomb was built to combat an enemy who used religion to justify genocide). Nevertheless a true scientist’s interest are to understand and explore the universe, and not to destroy it. With your kind of logic I should add that science has nothing to do with Scientology. One thing science does well is debunk preordained beliefs with careful research. Religion isn’t intended to do that, and that is why the Land of Israel has no rationalizing, just violence.

    • thatoneguy

      another perso who only sees the bad in things. yes these are horrible, horrible cases of attrocity, but these people who did these things were insane. They had twisted beliefs and were obviously not right in the mind. some, not all, atheists only see religion as an evil, when in reality, it does much more good than bad. Charities, medical clinics, foreign aid, community service, uniting a city, are all things done in the name of religion. But all we hear about is the murder and death, because that is what is interesting. Don’t just believe what you see on TV.

    • thatoneguy

      also, religion has been around for thousands of years as a strong movement, and atheism has only had a large following rather recently e.g. last 200 years or so

    • Universal Revival

      *cough* Persecution of christians in China, north Korea, Nazi Germany, Russia under communist rule, Azerbaijan, And multiple other countries..

      • Random Guy

        At least someone knows what their is talking about.

        • Random Guy

          *They are* Friggin english, why you gotta be so stupid

  • lezhog

    Jihad is not a "holy war" do some unbiased research and it will be found jihad is a struggle, and in VERY FEW cases any sort of combat. Islam is not about war, and the Muslims who do follow extreme fundamentalism are morons.

    • dharmawan

      thats right, jihad can be found in many form, working for your family is jihad, teaching knowledge is jihad also,etc. so next time check your source first

      • GetItRight

        Actually the meaning does include Holy War:

        Jihad is described as:

        +A believer’s internal struggle to live out the Muslim faith as well as possible
        +The struggle to build a good Muslim society
        +Holy war: the struggle to defend Islam, with force if necessary

  • Bob

    L, I love how you misdefine everything to make it not about atheism, secular humanism, scientific materialism, or whatever name you want to slap on the same thing which is anti-religion. The Gulag, the Holocaust, Pol Pot, the Chinese atrocities–all these have been done in the name of anti-religion.

    Feel free to spin, though. Clowns turning somersaults always make me laugh.

    • warren

      In truth any patriarchal system be financial or spiritual in nature or related to government and politics all have a common thread just a change in God or deity of fucking president who makes his people beleive that nirvana can be achieved if they follow him. To highlight any atrocity is not just a dig at religions but the human condition which has so often been exploited for selfish means. We need to move past all of these things to create a transparent society where people can truly be who they are and be taught the facts not misguided dreams . Its okay to laugh at the clowns doing somersaults sounds incredibly smug like you have all the answers.. I dont think you do

    • Geneva

      ‘The holocaust? Lol. You know Hitler and Himmler were very religious, right? They weren’t atheists. Damn, your ignorance is funny.

      • bzvfre

        hmm Hitler had catholic parents, but he was not religious himself. Twisting history to suit your beliefs doesn’t work.

  • 666

    RE: #55

    Notignorant: "the Quran was revealed to the Prophet Mohammad in Arabia starting from about 610 AD to 633AD.

    Well, that right there is good enough to reject the whole silly thing. "Revelation" is absurd, anything born of revelation should simply be dismissed, no matter what it states.

    Once you adopt proper logic as an axiom, dismissing the absurd can be done rather effortlessly by a first grader.

    • Kravi

      unfortunately, it will always be the flwlooers who are odd. you can say it over and over and over and over until you think that you’re not odd anymore but that wont change the fact, you are odd. Nice try though. I’m guessing you are christian, well if you are, you forget you only make up 33% of the world. That means that 67% of the world thinks you are odd. Try that out for numbers. BAM!!!! To put in in a different way, if you dont handle maths very well, in a room of 100 people, you have 33 friends, and 67 non-friends. I’m sure you will get in a nice little huddle, and reasure yourselves that you aren’t odd. But thats what everyone does in all parts of their lives, they surround themselves with like minded people, so that they are comforted.

  • Amanda

    wow

  • mezzalyrica1184

    am I first? that’s weird…I should think something like Jonestown would be included…great list!

  • Amanda

    thats crazy. in the name of religion? im a christian, and to me that means trying to be as nice and kind as possible… not killing all kinds of people.

  • Du

    nothing on the current situation of tibet? maybe as a bonus or something?

  • mezzalyrica1184: Jonestown is on the incredible recordings list so I left it off this one :)

    Amanda: I agree – that is what it is MEANT to be – it is a shame so many people forget that.

    Du: Tibet is suppression by an Atheist government of a religious group – and while atheism can often appear to be as zealously “religious” as religions, it doesn’t quite fit the bill.

    • Curious

      Yet you put the Aztecs in there? Religion might not be correct to you, but to its adherents it is correct, including atheism. Man by nature must worship something even if it is not sound! People have that make up in them that makes them want to worship something.

    • Seeker of truth

      im gonna venture a guess and say your Protestant. Maybe baptist?

  • otay

    It is truly amazing what ones religeous beliefs can compel them to do.

  • Bob

    Cool, now let’s have a list (it’ll be much, much longer) of atrocities committed in the name of atheism (or secularism, or scientific materialism, or whatever they were calling it at the time).

    • RandomSurfer

      Ummmm…. Like what?

    • Steve

      Ok, heres that list:

      Sorry, nothing. No one does things 'in the name of athiesim' Perhaps people who were athiest did terrible things but that is as relevant as the colour of their skin

      • Reedemer

        I'm a Christian and that is one thing i have to admit. Nobody kills in the name of atheism. Also looking at this list makes me question the reading abilities of some of these people

    • Mrgn

      You are a moron of the highest degree.

  • Bob

    Also, the word Puritans is innaccurate in #4 (but thanks for not making the mistake of saying witches were burned!). Puritans were members of the Church of England who wanted to purify it from the Romish practices (i.e., candles, bishops, saints, etc.) not, as many seem to think, Christians who wanted to be especially “pure” (in fact all the things that get attacked as “puritanism” these days are basic virtues that all Christians in all ages would hold up as ideal), so those who left England and formed their own churches in the colonies could not have been Puritans, since they were Separatists.

    • Lala

      Witches were burned… in Europe.

  • corinthian0430

    Why no mention about the crusades?

    • Pooky

      Yeah an easy tie for first place.

  • Cthulhu

    The Crusades were more political than religious. The Byzantines were getting attacked and asked the Pope for help. It was also a way of getting revenge for Muslim raids on Europe going back to the 700s. The religious angle was just a way to get volunteers.

    • Tobb

      People still killed and plundered in the name of god, with a promise that they get a place in heaven if they died doing gods work on earth.

  • jesse

    wait, i am confused, what about the holocaust, am i missing something?

  • Randall

    It’s interesting that the relatively isolated incidents in Salem were picked out here, when the witch mania was actually far wider spread in Europe in that century and the centuries before; estimates are that thousands died–and *those* people, in Europe, *were* burned, as well as hanged and tortured.

  • Peanut

    Awesome list.

    I’d never have thought religion could compell people to kill others.

  • L

    also, no, the holocaust, while horrible, was not done “in the name of” religion. Hitler did not kill the jews because they didn’t worship the same god he did. he killed them for other reasons I wont get into here.

    • Vitalir

      Actually if you read Mein Kampf Hitler believed that eliminating the jews was worked tasked to him by God.

      Hitler believed firmly that he was doing God's work. So much so that he had Gott Mitt Uns inscribed on the Nazi's belt buckle which translates to God is with Us.

  • L

    ALSO… lol

    The situation in Tibet is not a religious issue. It is a political issue. The Communist government does not want the conflict of power and interest around that the religious leaders of Tibet could use to influence the people. The Chinese government could really give a damn about what they believe in, as long as the people are under their control.

  • meangene

    The Inquisition has got to be higher than the witch hunt.

  • Okay – I only included one atrocity per religious group – hence no crusades (though only two of the 8 crusades are generally considered to have been bad – the rest were land wars).

    Randall: I picked Salem over Germany because I thought it would be more familiar to people – but yes – things were definitely worse in Germany and Europe.

    L (#14): Atheism and science are separate entities – many religious people are also scientifically minded. I would also argue that atrocities were committed against Orthodox Russians by the atheistic communists. The same is still true today in China when Catholics are executed by the state for not adhering to the Patriotic Catholic Church (which is a government controlled version of the Catholic Church). The same is also true in North Korea. Those are three examples just from Communism alone. The Khmer Rouge outlawed religion and execution untold amounts of religious people.

    And finally – this is a list about atrocities committed BY religious groups – not against them :)

    • Corbo

      “Okay – I only included one atrocity per religious group – hence no crusades (though only two of the 8 crusades are generally considered to have been bad – the rest were land wars).”
      You did include some crusades: the ones against the Cathars (Crusade of the Albigensis) and the Vaudois (Waldensians). They are indeed crusades, not Inquisition trials, are contemporary of the Middle-East Crusades, and were conducted in the same manner by the very same people (although the Christians did not commit any act of cannibalism in Occitania.)

    • himster007

      Persecution against Christians? this was done against the Christians. So might as well include the holocaust, which was against the Jews.

      Buddhism is one of the most peaceful religions in the world. Its teaches to love ALL living things. Buddha is a teacher & a human being. There is no god. What we do will eventually come back to us (good or bad) – KARMA. If the Burmese killed ppl, I’m sure it was not in the name of Buddhism. Killing in the name of Buddhism is like eating pork in the name of Allah. Furthermore, “astrologers” are not monks :)

  • meangene: This list is not in order. But for the record, the witch hunts killed at least 12,000 people, whereas the inquisition handed to the state for execution around 500 – 1,000 people (less than 10% of those killed by the protestant witch hunters). For that reason I think that the Witch trials should be higher than the inquisition if this were an ordered list.

  • Lezhog: the problem is that verses like this exist in the Quran:

    “Make war on them [infidels] until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Sura 2:193)

    And the fact is, that while yes, many Muslims are not warring, many are (and using quotes such as the one above to support them). If that is incorrect, why are the “peaceful” muslims who claim to be the majority and TRUE followers of the Quran doing nothing to stop the terrorists who do use it in that way?

    • derp

      haha you're kidding right? way to be islamaphobic. you really think that the majority of muslims support terrorism? hahahahaha

    • meh

      so you didn’t fail to find this verse – which was in a certain case- yet you failed to find this? )” Allah forbids you not those who fight you not for religion nor drove you out of your homes, dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loves those who are “( ” surah Almomtahana, verse 8″

  • Ginger Lee

    No offense but I thought it was kind of tactless to put Islamic Jihad as number one.

    I think that the conquistadors pushing Catholicism on the American Indians should probably be included too. I know part of it is political but in those day they were one and the same.

  • SlickWilly

    Who cares whether religion or atheism has a longer list of atrocities attached to it? The fact is, any war that has been waged that has tagged the name of any religion or lack thereof was for purely political reasons. Religion is not “evil” anymore than atheism is “evil.” Evil people have perverted religion (or lack thereof) to justify their own personal crusades. I am an atheist and I’m not an evil person. Just like DiscHuker is a religious person and is not evil. Just like the *vast majority* of people that suscribe to either camp.

  • Lezhog

    jfrater,
    First of all, I love your website and have been an avid reader since last spring/summer since you first started listing.

    In respects to your response:

    First I would like to commend you in your research into Qur’an and its blessed teachings, but from what site did you get this Sura? I am a Muslim convert and several English translations and interpretations of the Qur’an I have studied say nothing similar to what you have posted.

    My translation of the sura you have post from my personal Al-Qur’an, as translated by Muhammad Farooq-i-Azam Malik is:

    Sura 2 Al-Baqarah 190-193
    “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight against you, but not to exceed limits. Allah does not like transgressors. Kill them whenever they confront you in combat and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you. Though killing is bad, creating mischief is worse than killing. Do not fight them in the precincts of Al-Masjid-al-Haram(aka a mosque), unless they attack you there; but if they attack you, put them to the sword; that is the punishment for nonbelievers. If they cease hostility, then surely, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Fight against them until there is no more disorder and Allah’s supremacy is established. If the desist, let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.”

    I have typed this ALL to illustrate a point. The sura selection you inserted was a SMALL selection of the overall theme of this part of the sura about how to deal with warfare. When you remove a selection, as you have, you must look at in context, ESPECIALLY ANY RELIGIOUS TEXT, not limited to the Qu’ran. As to Islamic extremists and “fundamentalists” (I say it in quotes because they pervert the Qur’an and hadith the worst, when they should be following it accurately), they are led by people who do as you have just done with your initial response to my original post. You have extracted a small portion of the Qur’an, which takes it out of context, and misinterprets the meaning. I am not saying you are a Islamic extremist, but you are making the mistake many non-Muslims make. Research and study of these religious texts is ESSENTIAL to interpret a meaning.

    As to why Muslims do not try to stop them? Often times, the extremists rule the country, giving its Muslim citizens no choice but to listen, move, or die.

    • archworf

      “Fight against them until there is no more disorder” sounds like “kill everyone who continues to disagree with you” to me. I am no more against the Qur’an than I am the Bible. Organized religions (or those united against a religion) of any stripe are bloodthirsty when they “get the okay” from their particular myth books, be it Bible, Qur’an or Mein Kampf.

  • SlickWilly

    Ginger Lee: How was it tactless?

  • Joss

    Chilling list. Good call on #1.

  • Randall

    Ginger Lee:

    Why tactless? Islamic holy wars did in fact kill an enormous number of human beings over the centuries. And Islamic extremism earns many points–many, many points–for being a *modern-day* form of religious zealotry that goes around murdering people. Thousands of people. We are, after all, supposed to be civilized and self-aware, in these enlightened, technological times. One can perhaps understand–to some small extent–the barbarism of past ages… indeed, of only a few hundred years ago. But wholesale murder in the name of religion, in the 21st century? THAT is in incredibly bad taste. And in fact is insane and all the more monstrous.

    Modern-day Islamic extremism is even MORE despicable when you examine the history of the Islamic peoples… here was a civilization that had high science, mathematics, learning and philosophy (and terrors and despotism as well of course) at a time when OUR Western civilization was in tatters and in the abyss of a Dark Age. In fact at the time, Islamic scholars and learned men *saved* much of the knowledge our civilization had accrued in Classical times, and this knowledge, or what little had been saved–trickled back to us.

    But from that high civilization of learning and wisdom, from science–and even at times of great reason–the Islamic world has partly fallen back into the darkness of anti-civilization with these obsessions with extremist religion and superstition and hatreds. EVEN at a time when these nations command great wealth. This is quite frankly inexcusable.

    I don’t believe Jamie was ranking these anyway, but I’d frankly rank Islamic Jihad and number one in any case.

  • rydak

    what about the holocaust? its not included in your list..

  • Blackwaffle

    uhm, I’m not sure you can say the persecutions of Christians by the Romans was done in the name of religion. The romans didn’t really have religious motive for doing it. Christians (a good number of which would have been former Jews) were a political group as much as a religious group and Nero was using the lions to keep them in check.

  • Lizim

    Great list. I am a lapse Catholic and willing to admit that I know very little of other people’s religions. I do not believe that all Muslims are bloodthirsty crazy people, the same way I don’t believe that ALL priests molest children. That sad thing is that some Muslims are bloodthirsty crazy people the same way the some priests molest children. Those people scare me. (Bloodthirsty crazy people and child molesters alike.)

  • Lezhog: thank you for going to the effort of posting the full quote for me. I agree that in that context it is far less aggressive – though I do think it still supports the idea of warring until Islam is put in place and I think that people should choose their faith, not be forced in to it by the sword or threat of sword.

    As for your final point – there have been many cases where extremists have fought to take control of a nation – why can the non-extremists not also do so? It seems to me that many people supported Khomenei when he came to power – and yet he did many things that I would have thought a peaceful Muslim would object to. Incidentally – please don’t take this as an attack – I am just trying to understand and it is useful to discuss this with someone (you) who has some knowledge from the other side that I do not.

  • NOBODY expects the Spanish #5!

    :D

  • Stefani

    I heard somewhere that another “Rule” about the inquisitions, was that the same person could not be tortured more than once a day, so instead the inquisitors would make the torture session last the whole day, as to comply with the “Rule”

  • Idreno

    Very interesting list!

    I’ve always been somewhat fascinated by the witch hunts, moreso regarding the lack of common sense and logic. We should remember, however, that accusing individuals of being witches is a practice that began a very long time before the Salem trials. Apparently, these sort of accusations still occur in many tribal communities around the world…and the only solution that these cultures can ever find for it is death or expulsion.

    It is amazing to me how, historically, people were accused of witchcraft for just about anything – being left handed, talking to oneself, speaking an unknown language around locals, attempting to invent something, finding and making herbal remedies, certain forms of mental diseases and dementia’s that were unexplainable at the time…

    I’m currently reading a fabulous book by Ken Follett – World Without End – which takes place in the 14th century – and it’s obvious that the author has done a huge amount of research for his historical novels. In this book he addresses some of the horrors associated with contemporary witch accusations – one device (and I don’t know how true this is – it might just be poetic license on his part) his characters use as hard evidence of being possessed or in league with the devil is if a person has a mole somewhere on their bodies…especially if it is within the genital or breat reason (like a third nipple). Does anyone else know of this sort of reasoning to be historically accurate?

  • Major Wood

    This is why religion needs to go away forever. None of them have a shred of evidence supporting them, and as long as religions exist, people will use them as an excuse to commit atrocities.

    • archworf

      Amen.

  • 666

    Bob: Post #4 and #20

    Atheism is a secondary characteristic of communism; it was necessary for the early communists to eliminate ‘faith’ in the immaterial, mystic afterlife, so that people would be more malleable to Soviet directives. In essence, faith in god was replaced by faith in communism. Both operated very similarly, (question either and you were punished i.e. killed) atheism quo atheism had nothing to do with Stalin sending millions to their death in Siberia at forced work camps; and everything to do with power, control and suppression of opposition. This is atheism’s great virtue—lack of FAITH.

    P.s. Bob: Hitler believed he was doing his ‘work’ in the name of god, it is clear—in his own words—in Mien Kampf (sp.?)

    Religion IS evil, plain and simple, stop apologizing for it and denounce it for what it is: an irrational belief system that places the highest virtue on FAITH. When someone believes something on faith, anything can be rationalized. Eliminate the concept of “FAITH” and organized religion—and its hatred of human nature—crumbles without opposition.

    And again, the atrocities that were committed by atheistic regimes against religious groups were not in THE NAME OF ATHEISM, but were simply a crackdown against ANY AND ALL OPPOSITION. The atrocities committed by warring factions of differing religions ARE DONE IN THE NAME OF GOD. Slight difference, I understand, but the difference is profound the closer you analyze it.

  • Major Wood

    Also, I like how Benedict was a member of the the Nazis and the Inquisition, the two most evil organizations in history. How did he get to be pope?

    • archworf

      His proven track record.

  • Lewis

    Bob: O.K. have it your way, killiing in the name of atheism?Atheism is a lack of belief in God(s) etc. so, if you can name one killing in the name of the ‘lack of the existence of god’I will be quite impressed.

    dangorironhide: LOL!What a bunch of ledgends! ‘Monty Python’ obviously.

    • archworf

      “My lack of God! It’s Trotsky!”

  • Major Wood: Benedict was in the Hitler Youth but so was every other male of his age in Germany – it was required by law. He actually avoided the meetings with the help of the leader of his village who sympathized with his families very anti-Nazi beliefs. And he became Pope because the Catholic cardinals don’t consider the Office of Inquisition to be evil – it did evil things in the past but its current use is to monitor writings and teachings coming from religious orders to ensure that they comply with doctrine and to give them the stamp of approval. It is certainly nothing like it was :)

  • heavybison

    #7: Thuggee Murders: The Britishers in turn started a new regime of oppression and looting(albeit for Land and control, not religion) which lasted for nearly a century. In fact you will see many treasures looted from India in the Museums in Britain (e.g Kohinoor diamond).
    The despicable act of Goat sacrifice in the name of a godess is very much an unfortunate act which is still a mainstream activity in eastern India. But then we should all turn veggie, no? (Not that i support the practise in any way)

  • romerozombie

    This is why I’m an agnostic. Though I do praise the Mighty Cthulhu.

  • Lewis

    romerozombie: what’s that?

  • romerozombie

    Lewis: Cthulhu is one of the Great Old Ones, who came to Earth many millenia ago. He’s currently sleeping in his city R’lyeh in the Pacific Ocean. One day he will awake.

  • everlast

    It’s hard to believe the whole Islam is a religion of peace stuff when the supposed “good” Muslims do/say nothing against the supposed “radical crazies” like this prominent British Muslim Lawyer, Religious cleric and community leader…
    [quote]
    A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims — including killing and rape.

    A question-and-answer session with Imam Abdul Makin in an East London mosque asks why Allah would tell Muslims to kill and rape innocent non-Muslims, including their wives and daughters, according to Islam Watch.

    “Because non-Muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet,” the Imam says, according to the report. “If you don’t believe me, here is the legal authority, the top Muslim lawyer of Britain.”

    The lawyer, Anjem Choudary, backs up the Imam’s position, saying that all Muslims are innocent.

    Click here to watch the interview with Islamic lawyer Anjem Choudary.

    “You are innocent if you are a Muslim,” Choudary tells the BBC. “Then you are innocent in the eyes of God. If you are not a Muslim, then you are guilty of not believing in God.”

    Choudary said he would not condemn a Muslim for any action.

    “As a Muslim, I must support my Muslim brothers and sisters,” Choudary said. “I must have hatred to everything that is not Muslim.”
    [/quote]

    Link
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344409,00.html

    • A Proud Muslim

      Islam IS a religion of peace, because if you kill any other non-Muslim person without a good logical cause, you get executed, Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him was an extremely peaceful and fair man, because he told us that and many other things too, like raping any woman is a CRIME, and while we really try our best to capture and prosecute extremists, it never goes in the media, and that's actually real because in any Islamic nation you must report if you have ANY INFORMATION about any terrorist activity against anybody, but you and many others think normal Muslims are supporting extremists because it never gets any worldwide media attention, I say it here and now, May Osama Bin Laden go to hell, and any other extremist that has intentions of harming the innocent.

      • archworf

        For all religions, not only but including Islam, “good logical cause” is because your myth book says it is okay.

  • bucslim

    Since this is the List Universe and we’re doling out atrocities for each religion, let me put up John Travolta in Battlefield Earth. Not only was that atrocious, it came from L. Ron Hubbard.

  • SlickWilly

    Lewis: Google “H.P. Lovecraft.”

  • rneiderman

    @#31. Roman persecution of Christians had a largely religious motivation. The Roman emperor was revered as divine, and so failure to sacrifice to him was both heresy and treason. The emperor also simultaneously held the position of Pontifex Maximus (high priest), and the main function of that office was to maintain the Pax Deorum (peace of the gods). It was sincerely held that failure to sacrifice to the gods would bring about calamity for the Roman people. Therefore, exclusive monotheism (with the exception of Judaism, being so old the Romans respected it) was illegal.

  • romerozombie

    Ruin EVERYTHING SlickWilly. Spoilsport.

  • Lewis

    Thanks, name rang bells alright. Cheers. :D

  • Cubone

    To “L” and “666”

    It’s a wonder to me that you even use the words “faith” and “belief”.
    It seems to me that you have quite a bit of “faith” (a belief in a particular truth) in your own “beliefs”.

    The fact is nothing you can say for or against Atheism can be proven absolutely.

    Prove that there is no God.

    • Bob

      You see you got that turned around, the rule is the burdon of proof is on the one making the claim. If I tell you theres a teacup in orbit around a planet and it’s undetectable, would you believe me because you can’t disprove it? No, you’d ask me to prove it. That’s how things work my friend.

  • bucslim: haha I second Battlefield Earth :)

  • Mom424

    Most religious atrocities serve secular ends. Religion is/was used to dehumanize entire groups of people. “It doesn’t really matter if we kill them, they’re not the same as us” or “They’re going straight to hell anyway”.

    Personally I believe the current hold Fundementalist Islam has in the area is due to a climate of hopelessness. The entire region has been preyed upon for centuries; ever since the hey day Randall spoke of. Either by war lords/religious idiots, hereditary rulers, colonialists, or puppet regimes set up by outside interests (ie; big oil). Most areas in the Middle East are dirt poor, at least for the majority of the population. Makes it much easier to hate the wealthy heathens, and death is not such a bad option. The Imams and others interested in maintaining or acquiring power have taken advantage of this.

    Randall; you forgot about a popular method of witch trial. Truss ’em up, throw ’em in the river; if they float they are a witch, so you kill ’em, if they sink they’re not, but they’re just as dead.

  • NotIgnorant

    About Everlast’s comment #46:
    I have never heard of this and this is why there is no response. The dude who said this is absolutely nuts. That is nowhere in the Quran or hadith. Its people like these that give Islam a bad name. The problem is not with Islam but with the people that supposedly follow it. The biggest issue with the muslims is that most of them are illiterate. I would say about about 40 – 50% if not more in my estimation are illiterate and people like this so called Imam take advantage of that. I read the quran and I understand what it says and its context. As to the point previously, the Quran was revealed to the Prophet Mohammad in Arabia starting from about 610 AD to 633AD. During this time the prophet and his people were persecuted and exiled and killed. SO some of the verses talk about are in context to that situation. Lastly, Islam was not spread by the sword. This is a wide misconception. The tartars around 1300AD i believe came and in ransacked most of the muslim empire during that time and during this time they burned the largest library in Baghdad. But later on it was the tartars (the winners of the wars) who later converted to Islam.

  • 666

    RE post #14

    Well said, anything goes if FAITH is your highest virtue.

    If your nieghbor lives in a nicer house than you: run to your town priest and cut a deal, you ACCUSE, he AGREES, your neighbor is killed, you split the booty with the town priest or the town governor. Thats about how it went.

    If you were accused—-you were fucked, because justice, facts, reason and onus of proof were all inverted by the great virtue of FAITH.

  • Ruairi

    yeah monty python! – and i met michael palin last week! :o

  • neilos

    Great list, sure to get LOTS of comments. I can’t seem to login, that is I login, but i have to enter my name and email to comment as the site doesn;t recognize me as logged in. Weird.

  • 666

    RE #52

    Atheism is NOT belief in ANYTHING.

    Of course you cant say x exists…now disprove it. It is an inversion of logic. You say x exists…I say: why? end of story. I would never attempt to disprove something that can’t even be defined! That would be absurd!

  • Lizim

    jfrater: You really have a knack for opening cans of worms. Keep doing it!

  • Randall

    rneiderman, others:

    Now wait a second. An awful lot of nonsense gets talked about Classical Graeco-Roman civilization, so let’s just get some things straight here.

    Before I go into that, I need to point out that to the Greeks, religion was hardly the matter of import that it was to the Romans. Both peoples were, in their day, a superstitious lot, concerned with the threat of “evil spirits” and such (partly ghosts of the angry dead, partly spirits inhabiting inanimate objects) even more so than they were concerned with the whims of their rather capricious gods. The Romans, however, tended to take their gods, their fears–and themselves–rather more seriously than the Greeks did, being in general more backward and less refined than their Greek forebears (Greece being a far older and also somewhat more rationally-minded culture). By the time the Greeks reached the high level of their Classical Age (the 5th and 4th Centuries, BC) they (or least the intelligentsia–which, being Greece, was a much larger percentage of the populace than in our world today) treated their “religion” lightly and casually–tied to ritual a great deal, yes, and still superstitious in many ways–but basically, they viewed it as a sort of sidebar of society and their culture–by no means central to who they were. (In Greece, priests were afforded pretty much zilch respect and were certainly did not possess any sort of power). Some particularly wise Greek philosophers were even, in essence, monotheists–believing that all the gods and goddesses were really simply manifestations of the one god, which they continued to call Zeus, but did not manifest in him any of the silly caprices and moral failings that the myths assigned to him.

    The Romans, being nowhere near as bright-minded a people (clever, yes, but not as inventive or deeply-thought as the Greeks) were more apt to lend to their “religion” a greater place of importance and honor in society. But this simply bred a higher form of hypocrisy, since few intelligent Romans really took any of the superstitious nonsense practiced in Rome seriously.

    Now, some of what rneiderman said is true–the emperor was *sometimes* revered as divine (not always–you’re mistaking the Romans for the Egyptians, who always did revere Pharoah as a god) and they DID demand sacrifice, therefore, to the emperor, if he was one of those bold enough to proclaim himself a god. But more often than not, this was simply a sort of recommended course of action, and not an enforced, strict rule. When people DID worship the emperor, it was almost always seen as a formality, a sort of casual ritual. Nobody bothered much with it most times because no offense was seen in it. The Jews were the exception to this, of course–and for much of their history under Rome, they were not forced to obey on this particular point. Occasionally they were, and it caused uprisings and riots. Easier for the Romans to let it go.

    To say, then, that the persecution of the Christians was religiously motivated–in any way like other religiously-motivated crimes of later days–isn’t really accurate. The Romans were in fact quite tolerant to other religions so long as they paid the proper respect to Roman law, customs, and the emperor. What was at issue with Christianity was really two things: 1) legitimacy and 2) politics. In the first point, Christianity, being very new at the time, (and poorly understood) was not deemed a legitimate religion recognized by the Roman State, and therefore was questionable and suspect whenever anything went wrong. Supporting this was the second point—politics. Politically the Christians were convenient scapegoats. They lacked power, were few in number, and acted strangely in the eyes of typical Roman citizens. Moreover, the philosophy of Christianity which preached a brotherhood of man was NOT embraced by this rigid, slave-owning society.

    Hence, persecution of the Christians was more an act against a political/social minority group that just happened to involve religion, rather than an actual religiously-motivated sort of persecution.

    Another one of my lengthy treatises, but you kids gotta get educated somehow. You won’t listen in school, so I gotta step up to the plate and teach you a thing or two.

  • JMurf

    @ Bob: What you named weren’t in the name of atheism, but were carried out by atheists. I can’t think of any atrocities committed ‘In the name of atheism’. Im not a Bible hater or an atheist lover, just get your facts right about the gulags, holocaust and pol pot. To be honest when it comes to war and atrocities, atheism and religion are just as bad as each other

  • JLo

    666,

    “Religion IS evil, plain and simple, stop apologizing for it and denounce it for what it is: an irrational belief system that places the highest virtue on FAITH. When someone believes something on faith, anything can be rationalized. Eliminate the concept of “FAITH” and organized religion—and its hatred of human nature—crumbles without opposition.”

    Are you trying to have on a debate or just rant? Nothing that you say above can be proven or disproven and you provide no substantiating arguments to support your points, as others have done like like Randall or Kraeg. I mean, if you are trying to debate, you are using horrible logic to support your arguments. If religion is evil because some evil things have been done in the name of religion, shouldn’t atheism be evil because some things have been done in the name of atheism or to establish atheism? Again, I could argue against your points if I knew what they were.

  • CK

    666 – I find your screen name ironic in that it’s the number of the devil. If you’re atheist, shouldn’t you pick a number that has no meaning whatsoever?

    I think this is a good list, it’s very interesting and informative. I think we could also come up with a list where the world’s religions brought about great things. Just like anything out there, there are good sides and bad sides. Believing in a certain faith does not mean you agree with everything that happened (supposedly) in the name of that faith. For instance, a Catholic does not necessarily believe that what happened during the Inquisition should have happened, even if s/he is of the same faith.

  • everlast

    JLo, CK

    for some unknown reason he has a great hatred for religion and anything related to it. Thats his reason. he has no points to prove, so there is nothing to argue. You can’t argue someones emotional response.

  • MrSelfdestruct

    What about the crusades? I am not too knowledgeable on the subject, but that would seem to me to be massacres in the name of religion

  • 666

    Jlo,

    How does one “establish atheism”…how do “establish” nothing?

    The evil is implied, it is all right there for you: FAITH is the real evil, religion is just FAITH’s embodiment.

    CK,

    “If I’m atheist”…then 666 has NO meaning. Right? So it is as good as any other. But, seeing that you asked…I have an affection for the concept of “the devil”, in a fictional sense I think he would be a ‘cool dude’ to have a beer with.

  • Randall

    I gotta chime in on this atheism thing, also.

    As a former atheist myself (no, I didn’t find religion, I simply came to the conclusion that atheism=denial of the spiritual and extra-normal, and I didn’t see this as a tenable belief system, in itself) I totally understand the feelings of atheists who see religion as a tremendous evil that has at least brought more harm than good to the world. I am certainly no fan of organized religion, and don’t consider myself a member of any church or particular faith. I had a girlfriend once who went from Buddhism to Wiccanism to being a Quaker, all in a space of about five years. A bit whacky sure–I don’t deny she was a character–but in essence I was with her, spiritually, in the sense of journey and discovery. I simply didn’t take that route. She finally settled down into a simple, spiritual, personal relationship with god. That destination was pretty much my own, and we simply found our ways their, separately.

    Basically, I came to the realization that it’s the servile, unthinking mind that submits–whether to religious dogma or any other kind of dogma. And yes, atheism *can* have a dogma of its own. While it’s the open, deeper mind that steps up, realizes there is a depth and unfathomable mystery to existence and life–and investigates ways to embrace it, while retaining rationality and reason.

    The trouble with the last century is that the entire world suddenly came to a head with dogmas and “isms” from both sides of the political spectrum–and these led to the worst atrocities in the history of man. No, few armies march into the field under a banner of atheism, but this is because atheism is a negative quantity–one doesn’t fight for atheism, one stamps out religion. Certainly, however, MANY atrocities have been committed by those whose ideology demanded an atheism of others, and these atrocities have been committed against those who did not wish to be atheists. There is nothing right or just about this–hopefully we all know that. But we also need to admit that it has happened and continues to happen.

    We also need to acknowledge that there is a deep need within human beings for some kind of interaction and relationship with something greater than ourselves. Religion doesn’t create this, it’s simply an outward and organized manifestation of it. And it HAS had value in our societies. Religion HAS helped to civilize man, in the past. Certainly the western Church was a civilizing influence during the Middle Ages, if it also often acted in ways we would consider unjust and terrible–and if later became something of a hindrance to progress and knowledge.

    Basically, however, the Church isn’t all evil. It has done great good, and has served mankind more than done a *disservice* to it, for all the atrocities and terrors and inquisitions and crusades committed. It’s a close call, I admit. 60/40 maybe, if not even worse. But still… the good has been there.

    Lastly… I find this kind of statement:

    “Once you adopt proper logic as an axiom, dismissing the absurd can be done rather effortlessly by a first grader.”

    To be the kind of arrogance spoken by those who feel they have a corner on the market of rationality and intelligence. It sounds a great deal, to me, like the kind of thing Scientologists spew up from time to time. Rather like something Tom Cruise would say.

  • Mom424

    Its not that atheism and religion are as bad as each other, its just that they have something in common. US. It doesn’t matter what the ideal, humans are not ideal. We will always (I wish it weren’t true) want what the other guy has, be it power, wealth, land, or natural resources, and will find an excuse to get it, and once we have it, do anything to keep it. Religion was/is a handy excuse but so are WMDs. Nothing much changes in human nature, just the justification for our behavior.

  • 666

    Everlast,

    I also have a distaste (hatred is a bit strong and is a projection of your OWN emotional state) for people who believe in: (ON FAITH) fairies, gremlins, ghosts, alien abductions, the loch ness monster, big foot, god, mermaids, fire breathing dragons, the people who believe pro wrestling is not fake, etc.

    I HATE the CONCEPT of FAITH! Indeed! But the poor slaves who are shackled by faith’s tentacles? A simple distaste, no more, no less…just not the brightest people. I find them to be intellectually dishonest or stupid; neither one is a quality I respect.

  • Randall

    “Faith” is simply a word. It demands definition. For some “faith” is an excuse for blind obedience and for having a turned-off mind.

    But *there* is such a thing as an intelligent, rational faith. Some are humble enough *as well as* wise enough to recognize this fact.

    Some are not.

  • seeker

    You might also enjoy Atheist Atrocities.

  • bucslim

    Randall – not sure I agree with every point you make about Greek and Roman piety. I think there are a few different angles that can be viewed, particularly in regards to Roman Caesars proclaiming their deity, some scholars would argue that is particularly distasteful to the new fledgling Christian community. You also have to look at the fact that most Christians at that time were looking for Christ’s second coming for the very reason of destroying the Roman Empire, which would have been viewed as treasonous. So in some respects there was a sort of blurring of religious and political reasons. Persecution was indeed a matter of control – something the Romans surely felt was a strange cult with no regards to the Caesar and growing like a weed.

    As far as the Greeks were concerned, it’s my understanding that religion and belief were part of the culture – sort of as a matter of fact. And it is hard to escape their reverence for such matters when the gods they worshipped are mentioned and religious practices are in the majority of their surviving documents and traditions.

  • 666

    No Randy,

    You are just propping up a straw man with your “scientology” dig. But I will just get to the point.

    Randy said:

    “As a former atheist myself (no, I didn’t find religion, I simply came to the conclusion that atheism=denial of the spiritual and extra-normal, and I didn’t see this as a tenable belief system, in itself)”

    First off, atheism is NOT a belief system; it is a lack of theism. Theism = belief in god; Atheism = lack of belief in god. How and why do you jump to “belief system”?

    A belief system is a philosophy (or religion for the believer), atheism tells you NOTHING about HOW to live your life. So, I agree Randy—Atheism is unteneble as a belief system, in itself, this is obvious to any atheist.

    Why do you need the “extra-normal” and what evidence do have for any “extra-normal” phenomena? Or do you just play the ‘safe’ agnostic card because of lack of courage? or just contextual cowardice? If not the last, then are you agnostic about gremlins?

  • SlickWilly

    Randall: Do you think atheism is necessarily mutually exclusive to spirituality? Could it not be possible to be spiritual and still deny that God exists? I suppose it would depend on your definition of spirituality.

  • everlast

    666

    And you point of your post #70 was what? You have told us nothing new.

    You say that my statement about your hate of faith was a projection of my emotional state, then you say you indeed hate faith, so…then my statement was indeed accurate of your view and not a projection.

    and regarding post 67, if indeed 666 has absolutely no meaning for you, why DID you come to select that number? Just some random confidence you landed upon by using a dart board with numbers on it? or a computer generated random number machine? no no no, you picked it indeed because of its religious context.

  • 666

    Randall,

    Faith: belief in something with no evidence or contradictory evidence.

    There is a form of faith (on a secular level) that I respect…e.g. Faith in my friend, a loved one or faith in someone who has built up credibility.

    I always have ‘faith’ in someone until they show me that I shouldn’t, i.e. I give people the benefit of the doubt.

    This form of faith is much different than the form taken by religious people.

  • Mom424

    666; I have faith in a higher consciousness and I am not intellectually dishonest and stupid is not an adjective ever applied to me. Excitable, obsessive, stubborn, argumentative, a little spazzy, but never stupid. I suggest that you painted too broad a swath with your last comment. Faith does not have to be ignorant, nor an excuse to stagnate. Unfortunately it is often used as a method of control with most fundamentalist sects of any religion; again it is not faith but the use of it by those in power; they wield it like a sword of condemnation instead of a blanket of comfort. Stating that you hate all faith is just about as rigid and uncompromising as the fundementalists you find so abhorrent.

  • SlickWilly

    seeker: I would like to point out there other than than brief, unelaborated statement: “Atheism ([killed]>100 MILLION) – at the hands of the militant anti-religious atheists Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong,” there is not one “atheist atrocity” mentioned, and the majority of the page is explaining why atheists are mistaken about Chrisitanity giving rise to subsequent atrocities. I should also mention the page stems from a conserably fundamentalist Christian organization that goes on to state on that very page that Darwin is indirectly responsible for Hitler and Nazi Germany.

    While I agree that the idea that religion is evil because of evil deeds done in its name is a bit asinine and ignorant, I would be highly critical of *any* website that supports blind creationism over evolutionary science.

  • 666

    everlast,

    you are either not reading my posts or are just dumb, either way I find you boring. You said “hatred of RELIGION” not faith, so now your just putting words in your own mouth (as well as mine). I told you why I picked 666 lazy idiot, read the post before you comment on it, at least grant me that much.

    Religion is just a consequence of FAITH! Faith is the real evil, this is the last time I will answer your stupidity / laziness (pick one).

  • SlickWilly

    everlast: He picked “666” because he likes the connotations of one of his favorite fictional characters, the devil. Rather like how some people choose the names of their favorite anime characters as their screennames.

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Sorry dude, but:

    A) Not to sound pissy and authoritative, but I was schooled in this shit. (You may have noticed by now that I changed career paths and college majors several times… I ended up earning more than one degree, so I *kind of* have something to show for it, but I’m also living testament to the fact that ADD is real). I’m just asking you to trust me–I don’t just pull this stuff outta my ass.

    B) You’ve merely proved my point for me. Political expediency was the main issue for the Romans in how they dealt with Christianity. If Christians were awaiting a second coming so that Jesus would deal with the Empire, well then, all the more reasons for the Romans to be *politically* motivated to axe Christianity while they could.

    Also, you miss a key point. A deified emperor was no *more* distasteful to early Christians than it was to the Jews; yet the Jews received a usual dispensation from any enforced worship. The Christian attitude against worshiping the emperor–or any other “idols”—was therefore merely an excuse, another reason, for the Roman powers-that-be to use against the Christians in controlling them and keeping them down. But this had little to do with religion per se. It was, again, a political issue.

    Another thing–while some Christians were, yes, concerned with the apocalyptic side of things–this was in fact a carryover from *Jewish* messianic theologies, and was not shared by all Christians. Christianity at the time was FAR from a united, consistent front.

    As for the Greeks–believe me, your reading of them is typical of those who look only superficially at the evidence, but it’s nevertheless inaccurate. Belief was *never* a “matter of fact” for the Greeks, except *maybe* the most under-educated class. And even then, their *belief* was less focused on the Olympian Gods (who were more the set of the aristocracy) than on spirits and ghosts and other broad, folk superstitions.

    As I said, the Greeks *were* deeply into ritual and pomp and circumstance. They considered this vital… and for the most part there was only so much harm in it. But *religion* was not a “matter of fact” in their culture at any time after their archaic age (up to about 600 BC). Superstitions, yes… used as an occasional expediency and excuse for other things, yes… but never central to who they were.

  • Carroz

    Actually, due to Lysenko’s poor scientific process and outright lies, millions of Russians commoners have been estimated to have perish due to famine.

  • Alyssa

    Yeah, many institutions often do terrible things, but it’s important to remember that a) institutions can admit they made a mistake and try to make reparations and b)it doesn’t necessarily mean that all the people who belong to those institution are necessarily corrupt and misguided themselves. (Not accusing listverse of doing this, just saying that sometimes people reading it can make that logical leap.)

    We have a Muslim family living in the apartment across from us and I have to say that they are the BEST neighbors I’ve ever had. They bring over food sometimes, they help with the baby, and they’re always friendly and nice to us. The invited us to a Ramadan celebration and I was impressed at how dedicated they are to living their religion.

    And FYI, even though the Mountain Meadows Massacre is a terrible black mark in Mormon history, there’s always more to the story than can be captured in a paragraph. Anyone who wants to read an article about the massacre that was published by the church’s historian (published last September in the church’s magazine The Ensign on the anniversary of the event).

  • 666

    Mom,

    I don’t doubt it for you as an individual, but to philosophize you must generalize. Of course I have met believers who are completely rational in every other way, in every other portion of their life. It still does not mean that “having faith in a higher conciousness” is rational. Faith quo faith is no virtue, and can only lead to irrationality IF FOLLOWED TO ITS LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS, (just like the 8 atrocities above).

  • 666

    Randy,

    How do rectify occams’s razor (not on this list, but you spout it off elsewhere) with agnosticism? Parsimony would state that atheism is the DEFAULT POSITION until compelling evidence is brought forth to dislodge you from the default.

    What was your basis from moving from the default (rational) position of atheism?

  • 666

    RE: #81

    In fact Satan AKA Lucifer AKA The prince of Darkness is my FAVORITE fictional character of ALL TIMES!

  • 666

    RE #83

    Agreed.

    But Lysenko actually believed his form of Lamarkism. He was a profound idiot!

  • SlickWilly

    Oh good lord, I just realized seeker *wrote* that article. Oy…

  • 666

    The person(s) who created ‘the devil’ is/are creative genius’! The godfather’s of horror as a genre!

  • Amit

    Hi,
    you forgot the atrocities committed on countless Indians (even today) since centuries.. The practice of Untouchability.

  • Mom424

    Randall; I too would like to know what changed your mind. I developed my own spirituality, I was never heavily indoctrinated in any one religion, so I’ve never had to rebel against it. My spirituality has grown/changed with me as I’ve acquired new insights and knowledge. I’ve considered atheism, as it does make more sense, but in the end I’ve rejected it. Too pat, ignores too many common human experiences, and it offends my sense of rightness.

  • KRH

    Mr.Frater as sage as you are, you shouldn’t quote Koranic verses out of their contexts. Research more on the topic using unbiased sources.

  • Barack Obama

    Dear Lezhog,

    I’m writing to inform you that on Monday a group of muslims stoned a muslim husband and wife to death for adultery. Let me repeat that–STONED A HUSBAND AND WIFE TO DEATH. Aside from the so called ‘Holy Wars’ we live with carried out by people of your religion, can you tell us how this demonstrates value for human life? Most other religions practice tolerance for others (see comment 45), redemption, and forgiveness.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,345088,00.html

    Now that said, I believe that all religions must condemn all forms of violence, thus moving towards the core of why religions and their underlying beliefs exist.

  • Randall

    666:

    Okay asshole, I was against dignifying you with any direct comments, because you’ve made yourself all to clear–you’re an arrogant prick with a dangerous bit of little knowledge who decides he’s going to lord it over people if they give him a little argument. Moreover, you’re the type who ignores direct debate–apparently when you have no point to make or any answer to give, you descend to name calling and ONLY name calling, and endless repetitions of things you’ve previously cacked out. *I* use name calling also–but only for effect, ALWAYS following up with point-by-point argument.

    And by the way, grow freaking up. My screen name is RANDALL. Use it properly or fuck off and don’t bother responding to what I write. I give you that courtesy, as adolescent and dumb-ass and unoriginal “666” is for a screen name–I expect that courtesy in return.

    Now.. if you’d read CAREFULLY what I wrote, you’d see that I was in fact NOT recommending agnosticism nor was I stating I was an agnostic. But then, I’m quite sure I made this abundantly clear. Again, it’s the disingenuous sort, such as yourself, who, finding he can’t make a frontal attack in an argument, goes instead for the cheap shot, pretending it’s some chink in the armor.

    But, since you apparently need a kind of child-like clarity about these matters, I will repeat: NO, I am not an agnostic.

    As to the rest… if you don’t recognize how atheism very much IS a belief system, in essence, then you’re even more witless than I had judged you. No, the simple intellectual act of stating “there is no god” is not in itself much evidence of a “system,” but of course as we all know (or at least we all SHOULD know) intellectual processes do not *stop* at a simple point like that. One has an intellectual support system operating under the statement “there is no god,” or “I am an atheist.” It certainly doesn’t come down merely to “logic,” which you are so fond of pounding your chest about–logically, one cannot say ANYTHING whatsoever about super-normal or extra-normal quantities like gods and such–logic can neither affirm or deny them.

    You’re in essence pretending that atheism as a word and a concept turns on one, simple element–namely that there is no god. But of course you know very well that all words and concepts–particularly those that have ideological bends, as atheism does–have context and meaning beyond a dictionary-bound black-and-whiteness.

    You define faith thusly:

    Faith: belief in something with no evidence or contradictory evidence.

    Leaving off the “contradictory evidence” part… please explain then how belief in something “with no evidence” is *evil* per se.

    I have no problem with atheism. For the most part I’d rather hang out with a bunch of atheists than with a bunch of Christians any day. But there *is* a sort of mind that has to go around insulting someone else’s belief system, and while Christians can be very guilty of that–so can atheists. And you seem to do a lot of it.

  • 666

    Mom: “I’ve considered atheism, as it does make more sense,…”

    Honest and true.

    Mom: “but in the end I’ve rejected it.”

    Intellectually dishonest.

    Mom: “Too pat, ignores too many common human experiences, and it offends my sense of rightness.”

    Irrational.

  • Cubone

    I’m still confused on the terminology 666:

    What is “evil” and how can there be any moral judgement if there is no theology to define it?

    “Religion IS evil”

  • MethodMan

    Well 666 and all the others who said religion is evil, I am a Christian, and it’s good to know I’m loved by the Creator of everything, and I’ve got a place to go after I die. Enjoy believing that you’ve got nothing to look forward to once you get old! God bless you, you misguided soul!
    :D God rules, and it’s great to be a Christian!

  • 666

    Randall,

    You didn’t answer ANY of my “direct questions” to you. You say I don’t have direct debate? You have avoided ALL of my main points:

    1. You say you were once an atheist? Yet, not an agnostic, yet deplore organized religion? What the hell is left?

    2. Ocamm is convenient as a tool to berate someone else, but the you turn around and completely contradict it.

    3. That whole post of yours was basically just a personal insult to me, it had nothing to say about the things I DIRECTLY posed to you.

  • Lewis

    Seeker: Yes I did enjoy it, it’s absolutely hysterical, stupidity at it’s best.

    Where’s Bob gone?

  • MethodMan

    Cheers Randall! I have nothing against atheists, but insulting a religion is childish and rude, and good job on calling 666 out on that.

  • 666

    Randall,

    “One has an intellectual support system operating under the statement “there is no god,” or “I am an atheist.” It certainly doesn’t come down merely to “logic,”

    Yes it does Randall:

    Simple logic states that if someone states: x exists.

    If no compelling evidence is put forth, then x is rejected.

    The person who does not believe x, or has never heard of x, need not say anything regarding x, except the evidence brought forth. Period. Remember William! of Occam! You know him, you are fond of using his razor (when convenient).

  • JT

    “As to the rest… if you don’t recognize how atheism very much IS a belief system, in essence, then you’re even more witless than I had judged you. No, the simple intellectual act of stating “there is no god” is not in itself much evidence of a “system,” but of course as we all know (or at least we all SHOULD know) intellectual processes do not *stop* at a simple point like that. One has an intellectual support system operating under the statement “there is no god,” or “I am an atheist.” It certainly doesn’t come down merely to “logic,” which you are so fond of pounding your chest about–logically, one cannot say ANYTHING whatsoever about super-normal or extra-normal quantities like gods and such–logic can neither affirm or deny them.”

    Herein lies your problem. Atheism is not “there is no God,” it is “I do not believe in God”. There is no belief system in simply accepting what is true based on evidence, and not accepting that which has no evidence to support it.

  • 666

    Meth,

    I was going to ignore your desperation for belief, because it is a confession, and it’s pretty sad…here is your post:

    98. MethodMan – April 2nd, 2008 at 11:50 am

    Well 666 and all the others who said religion is evil, I am a Christian, and it’s good to know I’m loved by the Creator of everything, and I’ve got a place to go after I die. Enjoy believing that you’ve got nothing to look forward to once you get old! God bless you, you misguided soul!
    God rules, and it’s great to be a Christian!

    So, you believe in your god because he promised you an eternal paradise? Are you that afraid to die?

  • MethodMan

    666- First of all, it’s not sad, it’s quite nice. Second, it’s not a confession, it’s being proud to stand up for what I believe in. Third, as a Christian, I’m not afraid to die at all. Being a Christian allows me to have meaning in life, as well as after life. You may see it as little more than a false promise from a God that you don’t believe in. Oh well. Your loss.

  • Randall

    Mom:

    (and along the way I’ll answer 666’s occam’s razor question).

    Spirituality is not a scientific, logical quantity. Science and logic cannot say anything about that which is by definition beyond science and rationality. Occam’s razor is a logical axiom. It applies very much to things like Bigfoot and UFOs and such, and yes, to things like, “did God speak to me last night, or was I just dreaming?” and “was that God in that burning bush, or was the bush simply glowing by some scientifically-explainable phenomenon?” *Physical* interactions with god (including thinking he’s “talking” to you) fall under this…. but the question as to whether there is a god or not? No…. occam’s razor is about the more plausible answer to a question. Neither side of that question (is there a god?) is more plausible than the other. (Different from the question, “is the god of the Bible real?” for instance).

    Now.. as to the process, Mom… it sounds a lot like yours. I grew up in the mild Presbyterian church, and we didn’t even attend that much. I had nothing to rebel against, either. But my beliefs (if you can call them that) developed over a long period of time… it was a philosophical, intellectual journey for me. I found I felt the same way about atheism, in the end, as you did–and found there were deeper questions that even a great mind like Bertrand Russell’s missed and got wrong. (Russell at the time was one of my intellectual heroes) I found I was more impressed by those who open their minds to a humble acceptance of Mystery than I was to those who make life only an equation, as Russell did. In other words, I found more to admire in Buddhism (for instance) and people like DT Suzuki and Henry Miller, than in stuffy, staid (for all their non-conformity) clockwork British minds like Russell and Orwell (as much as I loved them both).

    Then too, I was of course influenced by friends–I had a couple highly spiritual (but anti-religious, as I was) friends and girlfriends and we made it all a sort of extended journey together. You know, you read things, discover new things, pass them on…. I was the one least likely to buy into things–I still have never copped to being “Buddhist,” even though it’s probably closest to what I more or less “believe”…. but I’m just not a joiner by nature.

    Basically, it was just intellectual and expansive. As anyone who knows me knows, I am all about the science no matter what the question–but to me this was a question disconnected from science. Which is the mistake many Christians–as well as some atheists–make.

  • Cedestra

    Wow, toasty in here…whew!
    Good point as far as Scientologists go- they’ve done some very naughty things. Then again, there have been numerous lists about Scientologists. Not that I’m complaining; keep up the good work!
    I agree that the Nazi movement was political, and while Hitler’s faith and his feelings play a small role in the overall movement, it was not religious. The Nazis were not a religious organization.
    Question: #8, those were BUDDHISTS?!? that committed those crimes? Wow, shakes my view on Buddhists. Damn.
    Ginger Lee: This is an inclusive list, not a top 8 list. Islamic Jihad was not listed as the #1, but 1 of 8.
    Jamie, in response could you do a list of fictitious and/or humorous religious groups (i.e. Church of the Sub-genious)? Would, uh, soften the overall blow of this list just the tiniest of bits.

  • Randall

    666 (comment #99)

    How about some patience? I have people in and out of my office, meetings to attend, etc. Your answer is above, in #106.

    I’m trying to be reasonable with you… god knows why, but it’s in hopes something will penetrate your swelled-balloon conceit. But you are an extremely childish motherfucker. And my patience with such people wears out pretty quickly.

  • Lezhog

    jfrater post 32
    Thank you for your response. As to why peaceful muslims don’t take back their own countries, I really have no definite answer for you. I cannot speak from personal experience, I’m a white male US citizen who has never had to live through these types of things. I can, however, speak for some of the brothers who I attend mosque with who, unfortunately have lived through some of these atrocities. It is easier said then done to overthrow a tyrannical or extremist government. Coat-tailing NotIgnorant’s post #54, most people who live in these countries are illiterate or uneducated, and are really only exposed to teachings from community leaders. Most of them are corrupt, and the few who aren’t live short lives. Outsiders cannot really do much to help because they are overrun by different world issues.

  • stevenh

    Re #1 (and those who doubt the place of Islam in today’s list)

    Is Islam is the religion of peace? Visit http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    or more interesting, visit Memri TV @ http://memritv.org/

    This organization records and translates what is being broadcast to the ‘Arab Street’. It is very different from what is said in English.
    Please pay special attention to:
    #1729 (I am not a fan of the US President, but note that this is what is being taught to children)

    Though nobody is killed by these atrocities (after all these are just TV broadcasts), the viewers – from children to adults – are slitting throats, detonating bombs, and perhaps worst of all…

    They are remaining silent in the face of the actions of their brethren. The few who do speak out (e.g. Wafa Sultan) have fatwas pronounced and are often forced into hiding:
    see http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=29458

    Jamie;
    I saw that your rule was one atrocity per religion group, but the truth is that you could have filled this list with just one religion.

    ’nuff said.

  • bucslim

    # 82 Randall – much respect, however I too was schooled in this area as well. Had it not been for my overwhelming talent and skill behind a camera, I would have ended up in classical history and culture. And I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong. But I do believe there is evidence that religion played a part in the persecution of Christians. If I am a deity, I demand obedience. Palestine was a province of Rome, they played along because they didn’t want Rome to meddling in their affairs. Christianity sprung up all over – no real province to strong arm. Because most of the early church was looking for Christ’s immediate return, thereby being treasonous AND sacrilegious, I think we essentially are on the same page.

    I don’t believe my interpretation of Greek culture to be superficial. The two monumental pieces of classical Greek literature surround the gods interactions with themselves and human affairs – be it their meddling or assistance. But I will agree with you that this sense of belief is different than what we would consider faith. This is what I mean by ‘matter of fact.’ It’s not necessarily a religion by our standards of faith and obedience. And indeed it was required reading for any educated person for ages to come. I really don’t consider that to be a marginal area of Greek culture or daily life for that matter.

  • 666

    No Randall,

    Occam’s razor can absolutely be used to dismiss the existence of “god”.

    You asked for a definition of faith, now I ask for a definition of “god”. If you are incapable of defining it, how can one then believe in it…or…for that matter even the possibility? I answered you…to the point concerning parsimony (same thing as the razor).

    You also keep talking about “spirituality”, but can’t seem to define this either.

    If “spirituality” is just what gives people meaning in life, then the concept does not belong in a philosophical discussion of the existence of god (still not sure what you mean by god though, NO ONE has ever defined it).

    If “spirituality” is some form of extra-sensory, “beyond human capacity” sort of thing, then yes Occam’s razor works rather nicely.

    I must reject the second form of “rationality” as simply another perversion of logic, humans have 5 senses—ALL knowledge is gained via these 5 senses (until science can demonstrate otherwise, which in turn I will amend my position, until then…) if something is termed “extra-sensory”—one is obligated to show evidence.

    The first form of “spirituality” is simply a human capacity—to find meaning in their life, no mysticism needed.

  • riley

    Talk about starting the Great Religious Debate of 2008!

    Personally, I think religion is NOT evil… people are (or can be). People will always, and have always manipulated what they need to gain whatever they want, including killing in the name of religion. However, when you break it down, I think there is nothing wrong with believing in something, however when you use it to manipulate, persecute, and remove words from context, then it is bad. As well, many people tend to not think about religious texts practically… Think about it… if you spread a rumor, wait till it comes back and see how much is changed… now think about how thousands of years could change that! All I mean is you must take religious texts with a grain of salt… use your human ability of reason, and don’t believe it only because your supposed to, but understand it, and rationally decide to believe it!
    I believe in God and in goodness, but I am married to an atheist and it has never been a problem!!

  • Csimmons

    Weren’t the people from #7 in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom? Other than that inquiry, very good list, well in my view any way. I knew Islmaic Jihads would be on here, as well as the Salem witch hunts, all so very cruel.

  • Csimmons

    riley: I too don’t see religion as evil(does cause most wars though)it’s all about how serious people take their religion and what they decide to do.

  • Randall

    666:

    For someone who prattles on about logic, your written syntax in regards to it sometimes makes not even a smattering of sense:

    You said:

    “1. You say you were once an atheist? Yet, not an agnostic, yet deplore organized religion? What the hell is left?”

    Okay….

    Yes, I was once an atheist.

    No, I am not an agnostic.

    Yes, I did and do deplore organized religion. (Though I’ve qualified that–I don’t despise it to the extent that some do. Historically and culturally I know religion has done some great good).

    What is left? You ask.

    You honestly believe there are only three choices to make about SPIRITUALITY? Are you THAT shallow and superficial, that dense?

    There is spirituality *sans* ORGANIZED religion, for one thing. There is a personal relationship with one’s beliefs, not beholding to any church or *systematized* religion. There is an intellectual acceptance that there is a mystery to consciousness, existence, life itself.

    There are also those who would NOT include certain spiritual philosophies (for lack of a better descriptive) in with the ORGANIZED religions–Buddhism, for instance. I, for one, do not include Buddhism in with the *organized* religions of the world. Buddhism is a *personal* system. You don’t have to cleave to any particular doctrine, though of course in practice many do, to at least two different types of Buddhism… and of course there’s also the “system” set down by the Buddha himself, 1400 years ago. But this is hardly of the nature of Catholicism or Protestantism, for instance. Neither are the wide and varying “doctrines” of Hinduism.

    CLEARLY there are not only three choices in this.

  • 666

    Also Randall,

    You have insulted me more in one post than I have you in entirety. BUT I DON’T CARE! Keep them coming, I don’t take it personally!

    No, you answered incorrectly in post 106, why can the razor be used to dismiss a conversation with god, but not the existence of god? You give no reasoning, and you are biased about this particular point.

    So, let me keep score:

    1. Randall is NOT an atheist.
    2. Randall is NOT an agnostic.
    3. Randall deplores organized religion.
    4. Randall is spiritual (whatever he means by that)
    5. Randall is ???

    6. I don’t think even he knows!

  • Cedestra

    #112 666:
    “I must reject the second form of “rationality” as simply another perversion of logic, humans have 5 senses—ALL knowledge is gained via these 5 senses (until science can demonstrate otherwise, which in turn I will amend my position, until then…) if something is termed “extra-sensory”—one is obligated to show evidence.”
    Unless you’re Renee DeCartes…then your screwed.
    LOL Sorry, continue bludgeoning… Just wanted to break up the debate with a bit of dry humor (?)

  • Csimmons

    BTW, Would Jonestown be considered an atrocitie because of religion or just some wack-job being too secluded with a cult? Of course I mean no offense to Jim Jones relatives who I read an article about saying how his grandson plays for San Diego university.

  • Tonny SS

    Uhh, the title for the first one should not be BUDDHIST Burma. It’s not Buddhist practice, it’s more like of Hinduism and local paganism somewhat unique to Southeast Asia.

    Ayudhya, the old capital of Thailand, and other cities in Southeast Asia (usually capitals) were also founded on human sacrifices. The logic is that the dead will become spirit watching over the welfare of the citizens living there.

  • Randall

    “Occam’s razor can absolutely be used to dismiss the existence of “god”.”

    How? What is the more plausible, reasonable choice between the two options? Is there a “god” or is there NOT a “god?”

    How do YOU define god, then?

    I don’t KNOW what god is. I am not so arrogant to assume that I could know such a thing. I certainly don’t go around praying to some disembodied intellect who hears what I have to say and answers me, in thought or deed, if that’s what you’re getting at.

    God to me is a mystery, the mystery of existence and being itself. Science answers ALL my questions but that one–what is behind it all? Maybe in the end, nothing. I don’t know. But I don’t believe so. I believe there is something. I believe it is consciousness and light, reason… and the impetus that drives us on to not merely *exist,* but to surpass existence.

    I don’t even care about the question “Why?” To me that too is a Mystery. But it’s worth investigating maybe.

    Now how the HELL do you apply Occam’s Razor to ANY of this? What does plausible/implausible even MEAN to these questions and thoughts?

    Jesus H. Freaking Christ.

  • Lewis_RATM

    Cedestra:Actually we have 23 senses, heat, air movement, stuff like that, good point though, :P

  • Tonny SS

    Although 100 people are a bit excessive. The song about Siam capital city mention one pregant woman sacrifice for the city’s ‘pillar’.

  • SlickWilly

    JT: The point of Randall’s missive is that atheism colors every thought you have about the functional world. Just as committed believers will have the existence of God as an axiom for their reasoning behind most everything, the committed atheist will correspondingly have the non-existence of God as one of their axiomns. Yes, atheism is a label for a disbelief in god; however, to think that a disbelief of that profound magnitude will not or does not affect your thought processes and belief structures is mistaken.

  • 666

    Yes yes Randall,

    I agree about individual spirituality, we agree, yes it’s possible.

    You are vague, does your spirituality involve the “unknowable”, the “extra-normal”? If so, you are an agnostic by definition, that is what was confusing.

    So, you have your own individual spirituality? enough said, and good for you. But you are still and atheist or agnostic…by definition (I will dismiss that you follow an organized religion). Not even you can change or ignore a definition. Is atheism so distastefull to you that you have to make up new “extra-sensory” possibilities?…then you are an agnostic.

    Also, that ad hominum attack about my syntax, was another straw man, by the way.

  • Randall

    “6. I don’t think even he knows!”

    NO! I DON’T KNOW, asshole! THAT’S your problem RIGHT THERE. *I* am wise enough and GROWN UP enough to know that I am HUMBLE in the face of all this. Maybe because I DO interact with immensely deep science and logic nearly EVERY single day of my life–I KNOW I am not the end all and be all of all this, and I am in NO WAY so arrogant that I think I can put my finger on what the ANSWER or answers to all this is.

    I *don’t know* the answers to these mysteries, and NO… I do not “know” what I am or quite what I believe–except that I DO believe in something–outlined in the previous answer to you.

    You, trying to make this all about either-or… you are a sad, limited, and shallow-minded small soul, man. It’s your right to be that—but it’s EXACTLY the people like you who cause all the trouble in this world. Small minded *little* souls who stand here awash in an ABYSS and think they have the *answer.* They KNOW.

    Unbelievable.

  • fulcizombie

    Humans can corrupt anything to our own desires.
    I hold no grudge against religion(even Scientology), I only wish that the humans who use such beliefs as a shields would emerge from behind the facade they have built up and try to interact with the world as a person, not a follower

    That is all

  • SlickWilly

    Lewis: I believe those fall under tactile sensation, one of the five senses. You *could* go so far as to say we have a six sense, that is the ability to sense our body position in context to the environment, i.e. falling out of your chair (that littl knee-jerk reaction you have when you feel as if you might topple over backwards), moving in a zero-gravity environment, etc. I’d be interested to see where the 23 senses your describe are defined.

  • Lezhog

    Barak Obama post 94
    A large portion of atrocities show on the news and elsewhere are a hybrid of perversions of islam, cultural/tribal tradition, and media spin. Many Arabian and Middle Eastern culture issues (such as stoning) DO NOT coincide with the Qur’an or Hadith (Teachings of Muhammad). Western thought, in my personal opinion, blends Islam and Middle Eastern culture and tradition into one contorted mess. One needs to dissect the news and media, concening Islam and Middle Eastern events, into what is Islam, what is culture, and what is the media spin. I acknowledge there is a West vs. East belief in the mainstream media, trickling down to the viewers and readers who take it as truth. As for your question on the value of life in Islam, here is a short except from the Qur’an regarding murder:

    Al-Ma-idah Sura 5.32
    “On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one kills a person – unless it be for punishment for murder or for spreading mischief in the land(war) – it would be as if he all of humanity: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the humanity. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.”

    PS: I am not speaking for all of Islam, only my interpretation and understanding.

  • Randall

    I am part Greek and also an ex-classical scholar. I define “agnostic” by it’s literal meaning in Greek: “NOT KNOWABLE,” or incapable of being known.

    I do NOT say that any of this is INCAPABLE of being known. Though “known” is a relative term.

    Do I believe in a god? YES. I do NOT believe in the personal god of the Bible, of a god who is an “individual.” I believe in consciousness and the light of reason and rationality, but more than that as well.

    This to me is NOT agnosticism. NOT adhering to the doctrines and dogmas of traditional religions to me is NOT the same thing as being agnostic.

  • SlickWilly

    Haha…I smell another BibleDude on our hands. His legacy lives on.

  • Lewis_RATM

    Slickwilly: Yeah I think that’s the one I was on about :P

    I just heard it on QI, :P Cheers

  • MethodMan

    I think it’s kind of funny that the same atheists who whine about Bible thumpers are the same kind of people who get on the internet and essentially force their anti-faith beliefs on us.

  • 666

    Randall,

    You are agnostic, I’m glad I understand now.

    I can’t define “god” either, you are making my point: how can you “hold out a possibility” for something that is not even definable? I can’t. You call it shallow, I call it logical.

    ok,

    How do we apply occam’s razor? Simple, I look at the EVIDENCE brought forth for “existence of a god”, if the EVIDENCE is not compelling (which is not) the concept must be rejected until EVIDENCE that is logical is brought forth.

    As far as “mystery” in conciousness etc? Sure, mystery in the secular sense—as in lack of knowledge on the topic. Just because we don’t know something doesn’t mean we have to ‘fill-in-the-blanks’.

    Your agnosticism is based entirely on a version of ‘The arguement from personal incredulity’.

  • Randall

    “Also, that ad hominum attack about my syntax, was another straw man, by the way.”

    Wrong. It was not a “logical point,” it was a GRAMMATICAL and literary point. You write poorly sometimes and do not make yourself clear. Simple as that.

    Put away the “Logic for Dummies.”

  • SlickWilly: so true – but I can vouch by the IPs that we are dealing with two different people :)

  • Csimmons

    BibleDude, where are you…..LOL! I’m still waiting for him to return!

  • Randall

    666:

    How in hell can you expect or ask for evidence for something which is beyond the experience of the body and the senses?

    No, for the last time… Occam’s Razor does NOT apply to something like the existence of god.

    GOD is not a logical question. Some of the greatest logicians and scientists of human history–including recent history–have believed in god. Einstein, for only one example. Are you placing yourself before such minds and saying YOU know better than they?

    No. You’re a PERFECT example of a little knowledge being dangerous. You’ve pumped yourself with this issue and have the galling conceit to think you have all the answers.

    If the question of god were THIS simple to answer, we’d have dispensed with it, and him, ages ago. Because the human mind is and always has been a logical machine. But CLEARLY some of us accept that there are questions BEYOND what logic can address.

  • 666

    Bible dude and Randall had alot in common. Both rampant agnostics. I would have enjoyed BD, but he had to play the agnostic card…just like Randall!

    That “greek” explanation of the definition of agnosticsm was lame.

    You believe in something without evidence. I just don’t have the ability to ‘turn off’ my rationality.

  • kiwiboi

    I find it intriguing that we have in excess of 130 comments here, and everybody seems to avoid any direct mention of 9/11.

    In fact, it seems that mentioning Islamic Jihad as #1 on the list is “tactless” and we have flowery quotations from the Koran to reassure us that Islam is a righteous path/we take blatantly obscene quotes out of context…yada yada yada.

    Political correctness gone mad. Absolutely mad.

    Still…maybe I’m just on another planet ?

  • SlickWilly

    jfrater: That might be worse news than if they were the same guy. Now I know there are least 2 of em running around out there. :)

    Lewis_RATM: This might be asinine, but are you from Europe? Or Aus/NZ? I *love* the “cheers” thing. I waited tables at a tourist resort for about a year, and the Brits, Scots, Welsh, and Irish were some of the nicest, friendliest guests we had, and they all said, “cheers” instead of “thanks.” I loved it so much I started picking it up and giving it back to them. :)

    MethodMan: I completely agree with you, and I’m an atheist.

  • Csimmons

    I think we may just get another bible tales list today, very likely.

  • JLo

    666,

    Please stop using occam’s razor, because I don’t think it’s valid in this context. The razor has little to with evidence, it has to do with theories, whether one is simpler than the other. I don’t have everything figured out like you do, 666, but I know enough to know Occam’s razor has been more abused than the expression “God helps those who helps themselves.”

    As for filling in the blanks, I would wager “you” are filling in the blanks by saying nothing goes in the blanks. As I said before, provide some good evidence (or logic) to your arguments. Kraeg, Randall and some of the others, with whom I don’t agree on certain subjects, do this and provide excellent cases for what they are saying.

  • JT

    “The point of Randall’s missive is that atheism colors every thought you have about the functional world. Just as committed believers will have the existence of God as an axiom for their reasoning behind most everything, the committed atheist will correspondingly have the non-existence of God as one of their axiomns. Yes, atheism is a label for a disbelief in god; however, to think that a disbelief of that profound magnitude will not or does not affect your thought processes and belief structures is mistaken.”

    I don’t believe in god because I see no evidence for one. Taking a skeptical, empirical view on things is one of my processes, but I fail to see how this corresponds to a ‘belief system’. To compare someone who accepts evidence as they find it to someone who believes only on blind faith in ridiculous.

  • Randall

    Slick:

    Who are you talking about? And are you referring to ME, or 666? For god’s sake you’d better mean 666.

    Jfrater:

    Where the hell is my Hollywood list? I’m damn sick of this religious crap and want a diversion.

  • SlickWilly

    kiwiboi: That’s because it has only become convenient for Americans to remember 9/11 when they are running for political office. I saw a video the other day, the interviewer is going around asking people on the street – and this is verbatim – “What month did 9/11 happen in?” The most common answer: “October.”

  • SlickWilly

    Randall: Come on, Randall, I’m on your side. *You’re* the resident smarty-pants around here. :)

  • Randall: geez! you only sent it in two days ago! Patience is a virtue my friend :)

  • SlickWilly

    JT: Being an atheist, do you ever consider the idea that God had any part to play in any of the functional processes of the natural world? No, you say? That’s my point. The atheist will not consider God had a role in creating the world or affecting anythign in it because the atheist has the presupposition that God doesn’t exist. God’s non-existence has *extremely* important implications in the nature of morality, altruism, the appearance of life, society and nature itself. Things that a person must come to terms with in a way they are comfortable. And if you haven’t considered these things based on your lack of belief, then you are not a very good atheist.

  • kiwiboi

    “What month did 9/11 happen in?” The most common answer: “October.”

    Slick – why am I not surprised ?

  • kiwiboi: I agree with you – which is what my point was earlier: by their fruits you will know them – if Islam is a religion of peace, why are its only fruits murder and destruction? A religion of peace should bear peace as its fruit. I have not a single example I can think of where Islam has lead to happiness.

  • Csimmons

    jfrater:What about my CILF list hmm….:( just jokin’ man, but seriously, when will it go up?

  • Lewis_RATM

    SlickWilly: Yeah I’m Irish, and I suppose saying ‘ Cheers’ is just one of those national terms we have… along with ‘how ba’and, the pure cork, ‘story biyy’ :P Where are you from?

  • Randall

    Jamie/Slick:

    Okay… cuz if you were implying that I’m some kind of religious nut, then godammit, Slick, I will hunt you down in that trailer park of yours and make you pay. Sorely.

    And Jamie:

    To begin with, it was nearly a week ago, in fact. I cannot help that you were off on some debauchery in Roma doing god know’s what with god know’s who, and didn’t get it til Monday. I just hope you took pictures and that you’ll share them… after censoring for the kiddies. Kiwi hedonist.

    And of course I wasn’t SERIOUS. Publish it as you please–I just hate these damn religious threads and want out. They make my skin crawl.

  • SlickWilly

    kiwiboi: Yeah, I’m not either even though I’m proudly American. Alot of Americans wonder why people in other countries laugh at us. I wonder why we laugh at them. All stereotypes have a bit of truth behind them…

  • Randall: Roma photos? http://frater.com/photos/roma2008 – there you go :)

  • Lewis_RATM

    SlickWilly(And those intrested):
    The great Wikipedia says…

    ‘There is no firm agreement among neurologists as to the number of senses because of differing definitions of what constitutes a sense. One definition states that an exteroceptive sense is a faculty by which outside stimuli are perceived’

    ‘However, humans have at least nine different senses (including interoceptive senses), like: thermoception (heat, cold), nociception (pain), equilibrioception (balance, gravity), proprioception & kinesthesia (joint motion and acceleration) and sense of time. There are at least two other senses in other organisms (amongst them: electroreception, echolocation, magnetoception, pressure detection, polarized light detection).’

    So…Yeah..

  • kiwiboi

    “Alot of Americans wonder why people in other countries laugh at us.”

    Slick – FWIW, I think that for every nation, there is probably a neighbouring one that laughs at them for some reason. And it is generally reciprocated. Mostly, though, I think it is generally good-natured.

  • Mom424

    Kiwiboi; I think the point of avoiding the Islamic issue is to not offend the millions of Muslims who live peacefully with their neighbours, who don’t condone the Jihad, who for the most part don’t live in the Middle East. I still contend that it is more a fight for power than a fight for religion. How many suicide bombers do you think you could cull if they all lived a nice middle class existence? Hard to justify strapping a bomb on your back when you’re taking the kids to the cottage for the week-end.

    666; You contend that your rational self cannot entertain the existence of god/higher consciousness. Are you not then denying a huge part of yourself? or are you Spock? Emotions are a huge part of the human condition, faith is based much more on this part of ourselves than the rational half. I get that “spiritual” feeling of joy and wonder from many things, birth of a new kid, a beautiful painting, music, a quiet morning on the lake, the call of a loon, and yes, even the fellowship I feel when in almost any church. I know there is a higher consciousness/purpose because I feel it. I pity those folks that either don’t have an emotional connection or choose to deny it.

  • kiwiboi

    “the pure cork”

    Lewis_RATM – I’ve worked with people of numerous nationalities, but I gotta say..the one whose accent caused me no end of problems was a guy from Cork. Lovely chap…but utterly, utterly unintelligible :)

  • Lewis_RATM

    I’m from Cork, but everyone says I act American/British/ Chinese/Other, and I gotta say there are guys in my class who are the exact same as your Cork friend :P

  • Randall

    jfrater:

    The photos…. bellissama! (or however you spell that… my ex-wife was Italian, you learn to pretend you know the lingo). Some of the most beautiful architecture in the world…

    And nice work… some of those pics looked like postcards… either you’re a great photographer, or it’s effortless, with that scenery…

  • bucslim

    Kiwi – damn pikers.

  • 666

    Randall,

    I am going to address each point separately.

    Randall said: “How in hell can you expect or ask for evidence for something which is beyond the experience of the body and the senses? “

    Because Randall, you stated that you believe in god, if you are saying that you have no evidence, but still believe in god. I can’t say anymore.

    Randall said: “No, for the last time… Occam’s Razor does NOT apply to something like the existence of god.

    Why not? You never explain this. Well parsimony does, in the choice between 1. god exists, 2. god does not exist. #2 only creates a bigger, cosmological ad absurdum. Thus god does not exist is more parsimonious. It’s really the same thing as Occam’s razor, but if you want to be obstinate, so be it.

    Randall said: “GOD is not a logical question. Some of the greatest logicians and scientists of human history–including recent history–have believed in god. Einstein, for only one example. Are you placing yourself before such minds and saying YOU know better than they?

    Nothing of substance here: rhetorical question about Einstein and do I believe I am smarter? Another straw man, it is irrelevant. Many people believed the Earth was flat—didn’t make it true—so fuckin’ simple. So asking “if god exists is not a logical question?” Yet you believe in “god”? Fuckin’ brilliant!

    Randall said: “No. You’re a PERFECT example of a little knowledge being dangerous. You’ve pumped yourself with this issue and have the galling conceit to think you have all the answers.

    Nothing here either, except another personal insult, another Ad Hominum attack.

  • 666

    Randall said: “If the question of god were THIS simple to answer, we’d have dispensed with it, and him, ages ago. Because the human mind is and always has been a logical machine. But CLEARLY some of us accept that there are questions BEYOND what logic can address.

    Old and tired argument from personal incredulity here: This comment is so silly, “we would have been done with it ages ago”.

    In closing Randall, you are just a blowhard agnostic, who constantly spouts about how smart he is…etc. When you’re just a scared agnostic, hoping there is ‘something more’, praying for something more, intellectual cowardice!

    Go ahead Randy, have the last word, we all know that you NEED to get the last word. Time for me to hit the sunshine on two wheels.

  • Csimmons

    So, people wonder why other countries laugh at us? Because we have stereo-types, as well as them, so really it’s their fault too.

  • Csimmons

    666:He always seems to have the last word doesn’t he? weird.

  • SlickWilly

    Lewis_RATM: That’s very interesting. God, it’s been so long since my cognitive psychology classes. I would still lump thermoception and nociception into tactile sensation, but the equilibiroception, propioception and kinethesia are definately of a different nature entirely. The mythical “sixth” sense, if you will. (Though I suppose not so mythical after all.)

    I’m from the U.S. The great (debatable) southern state of Florida, to be precise. The only national word I can think of right off the top of my head is “dawg” and nobody who wants to be taken seriously even uses here. I’m sure there are others, as our illustrious commenters will no doubt point out. Praytell, though…how do you pronounce “story biyy” and how would you use it in a sentence?

  • SlickWilly

    Randall: How the blue hell did you know I lived in a trailer park? Oh wait…damn, I guess the whole “Florida” thing gave it away. :D

  • Lewis_RATM

    Well I don’t laugh at you, :( except your scuse the lingo, your fucking arsehole of a president, but Americans are lovely otherwise.

  • kiwiboi

    “I think the point of avoiding the Islamic issue is to not offend the millions of Muslims who live peacefully with their neighbours, who don’t condone the Jihad, who for the most part don’t live in the Middle East.”

    Mom – so, how come I don’t hear these people making resounding noises of protest against the extremists in their midst? And as for “Jihad”…this is a central tenet of their beliefs.

    “I still contend that it is more a fight for power than a fight for religion.”

    How does flying into buildings or letting off bombs on London buses enhance their power ?

  • JT

    “Being an atheist, do you ever consider the idea that God had any part to play in any of the functional processes of the natural world? No, you say? That’s my point. The atheist will not consider God had a role in creating the world or affecting anythign in it because the atheist has the presupposition that God doesn’t exist. God’s non-existence has *extremely* important implications in the nature of morality, altruism, the appearance of life, society and nature itself. Things that a person must come to terms with in a way they are comfortable. And if you haven’t considered these things based on your lack of belief, then you are not a very good atheist.”

    I don’t consider that God had any role in creating us because I see no evidence for it. If I were to see some evidence then I would. Whether or not he exists is irrelevant to my beliefs. I believe evrything on evidence and my actions are based on humanist, ethical philosophy system. So you are right – in a way. But to say atheism is a belief system the same way theism is a belief system is erroneous. Atheism is simply the ABSENSE of belief – nothing more nothing less. Many atheists have different ways of going about and doing things, the only things that connects is a lack of belief in the supernatural.

  • Randall

    Slick:

    Yeah, trailer park/Florida… pretty much the same thing.

  • Mom424

    Kiwiboi; Because it robs us of ours. There will be no lasting peace anywhere until there is economic and educational parity. Hopefully I live long enough to see some progress in that regard. I doubt it, people are not far-sighted enough to work towards that goal. C’mon Americans aren’t even altruistic enough to pay for universal health care for their own citizens, and look at the lack of progress in New Orleans. Not gonna happen.

  • CK

    Randall – Do me next! Where do I live? =)

    and to 666 – a litte late, but touche!

  • SlickWilly

    JT: I’m not saying that atheism is a belief system like theism is. I’m saying that atheism is a fundamental axiom that pins together a system of beliefs. No atheism is not a belief system, but atheists worth their salt have a world view that corresponds to this single, fundamental belief. Not that atheism is the *basis* for those beliefs – as we all know correlation does not equal causation – however, the non-existence of God does indeed prove problematic for a great number of existential questions that almost everyone must be able to come to terms with, and thus a belief system arises from the critical aspect that is the consequence of a disbelief in god.

  • filipinoknight

    The Aztec’s thought it was an honor to be sacrificed, so theres nothing really bad with that. The Holocaust was in the name of Christianity and was a horible waste of life. The Crusades was a “holy war” fought in the name of God. I think religon is just a sorry excuse for anyone to use. If God really was on someones side then wouldnt you think that the other side would be erradicated??? Just thinking

  • Lewis_RATM

    If God was only on one side, there would be no other side.

  • Mom424

    Kiwiboi; (sorry for the double post, I said I was spazzy) I believe (I could be wrong), that most moderate Muslims don’t speak up because they are as afraid of the fundementalists as we are in the west. It is much easier to wage a jihad on the same continent. They already are entrenched in the region and receive some popular support, I think the back-lash from speaking up would be immediate and violent. I don’t know how many moderate governments in the Middle East/Asia/Africa could survive that kind of attack.

  • SlickWilly

    Lewis_RATM: No excuses, my good man. Especially when it comes to our fucking asshole of a president. Believe me, the U.S. is starting to hate our administration as much of the rest of the world. Unfortunately, like always, we’re just a couple of years behind the curve. It’s alright…we only have to put up with his horseshit for the next 10 months or so (hopefully, if that pandering, neo-Bushy McCain doesn’t get elected. I liked him a lot back when he was more liberal…he compromised a lot of his beliefs for popularity in the GOP, which is the reason I’m voting for Obama come Nov.)

  • SlickWilly

    Randall: …I don’t really live in a trailer park. Just wanted to clarify. o_O

  • CK

    filipinoknight – I don’t think the Holocaust was done in the name of Christianity. See above posts.

  • kiwiboi

    “I think the back-lash from speaking up would be immediate and violent.”

    Mom – I’m in London, which has a very large Muslim population. You also mentioned the millions of Muslims “who for the most part don’t live in the Middle East”.

    What is this backlash are you talking about ?

    And, no…you are *not* spazzy ;)

  • Lewis_RATM

    Our prick Bertie Ahern resigned today, commencing many a small party. Come on Obama! ;)

  • kiwiboi

    Lewis – our prick (Gordon Brown) is a bigger prick than your prick :)

  • Lewis_RATM

    Is your having a tribunal held about him over briberies? :P
    I don’t know enough about Gordon Brown yet, but he could have done better with Northern Rock,

  • Guerrila

    Although this site provides useful information,but the religious prejudice is as clear as the crosses used on
    flags during the crusades…s!!! is disappointing…

  • kiwiboi

    Lewis – at least your man was elected. Besides…politicians & corruption go together like fish and chips ;)

    Gordon Brown is a total asshat. His primary intent seems to be to erode all of our civil liberties (in the name of terrorism, of course) and to dictate every aspect of how we live our lives. A total wanker!

  • Ghidoran

    Wait, it’s hard to believe that Jihads are worse than Aztec sacrifices. I mean, atleast Jihads were a way to convert people. The sacrifices were mindless.

  • Mom424

    Kiwiboi;
    I’ve read about the Muslim fiasco in London, my goodness you guys had damn near Jihad training schools in some of your Mosques. Mostly poor disaffected male youths were their targets no? Again the poverty/hopelessness factor.

    As far as the moderates in Britain not speaking up; I don’t know but I imagine they are afraid of getting bombed too. I personally don’t believe that to be a good enough reason when you live in a Western country. There is NO chance of a Prime Minister Osama Bin Laden so you are not protecting your people just yourself. Either they tacitly agree or are cowards. Inexcusable.

  • Lewis_RATM

    Yeah, good point, :P

  • Lewis_RATM

    SlickWilly just read your ealier comment 168, cause I missed it earlier somehow, its pronounced like an elongated by, and was origionally ‘boy’

  • Lambda121

    What about the holocaust?

  • kiwiboi

    “Mostly poor disaffected male youths were their targets no? Again the poverty/hopelessness factor.”

    Mom – no. The attack on Glasgow airport was carried out by three Muslim doctors.

    “Inexcusable.” – well, at least we can agree on this :)

  • DiscHuker

    just got to this list.

    wow, 666. that guy. jfray, are you sure he isn’t bibledude?

    randall: i can feel your exasperation. it is like talking to a wall, huh?

    666: work with me on this one…suppose you experienced something beyond the natural, a tree talking to you, or someone rising from the dead, or your steak telling you that you should be a vegan, etc. how would you incorporate this into your belief system? would you dismiss the obvious right in front of you because it doesn’t fit? would you change what you believe? would you deny the experience?

  • Lizim

    kiwiboi: thank you for using the term asshat. I had almost forgotten about it! I have recently switched to asstrout. I think I’ll switch back.

  • kiwiboi

    Lizim – glad to have been helpful :)

  • Lizim

    I am fascinated by this conversation here. I just wish I could be involved in it. I am so torn in my own personal life about these issues. I just end up sounding like a wet blanket.

  • Lizim

    I also tend to favor assclown. I think it rolls off the tongue nicely.

  • Lewis_RATM

    Tis a good one :d

  • SlickWilly

    I, too, am captivated by this word “asshat.” I think I’ll pepper my regular conversation with it, and see how people react.

  • Lewis_RATM

    I like anal fungus,
    just the term though obviously, would be a strange fetish no doubht with 1000000 porn sites dedicated to it, :P

  • kiwiboi

    I’m not sure whether this one carries the same gravitas outside of London (or, England, for that matter), but at work the insult of choice at the moment is to call someone a “big daft cock” :)

  • Lizim

    Can one even develop anal fungus? Never mind I don’t want to know.

    BTW the sentence “I like anal fungus” should never be said aloud in the company of, well anyone.

  • Lizim

    My husband is deployed right now, I’d kill for a big daft cock!

  • Mom424

    Kiwiboi; I did know about the doctors and I was absolutely boggled. (I said mostly, these guys were an abberation) I have no clue how western raised and educated people could have that much hate for a society that they have reaped the benefits of.
    I don’t get it, the closest parallel I can think of is my loser brother, he is a failure and blames society and everyone else for his ills. These guys weren’t failures though were they?
    These guys weren’t brainwashed from an early age like most of the suicide bombers in the middle east either, were they? I truly do not understand. Maybe someone else can explain it to me.

  • Guerrila: gosh – I hope you don’t mean that *I* have a religious bias – I try to be objective on all my lists and the same is true of this one. If you think I am being biased, what is the bias you detect?

  • Lewis_RATM

    Especially following the line ‘God my ass is scratchy…’

  • SlickWilly

    Lewis_RATM: A google of “anal fungus” only returns a little over 1600 entries. Not very many porn sites. I can only conclude that an anal fungus fetish would be a highly esoteric sexual preference that you’d be hard pressed to find a community for. In colloquial terms, “asshat” rolls off the tongue a little more smoothly than “anal fungus.”

    Some of my aesthetically pleasing favorites are:
    “Shit stain”
    “Fuck rag”
    “Cocksucking motherfucker”
    “Ass blaster”

    and of course:

    “666” :D

  • stevenh

    mom, kiboi:

    Go back to my post #110

    Look at the links – truth is most people and governments are scared pissless about offending the Moslems. From Harvard to Istambul all we seem to do is pull a Chamberlin (“peace in our time”, for those young’uns).

    Sorry but “Poverty and hopelessness” is not a factor at all. It is the stated goals (among others) of these Islamaic Groups to:
    1) exact revenge in ALL Christendon for the crimes of the Crusades
    2) To re-establish the Caliphate – the Moslem empire that reached from Spain to India.

    Please do a search on Qutbism – my main issue with the wikipaedia description is that they refer to it as “radical”. The sad part is that it has become a common form of Islam.

  • kiwiboi

    “I’d kill for a big daft cock!”

    Lizim !! Shame on you :)

  • SlickWilly

    kiwiboi: That’s brilliant. I’m also a fan of “daffy bastard” but “big daft cock” has a sort of ring to it.

  • kiwiboi

    “Look at the links”

    stevenh – believe me…I need no convincing.

  • kiwiboi

    Slick – dude…use it at your leisure, and with my compliments :)

  • Lizim

    I live Just outside of Seattle and a few months ago we had a “scared of the Muslims” moment.

    There were 2 men acting suspiciously on the ferries in and around Seattle for days. Pictures of them were shown on the news to see if anyone would recognize them.

    The Muslim leaders in the area threated the news papers and told them that if they printed the pictures it would be discriminatory. One paper refused to print them rather than offend people.

  • Lizim

    Kiwi I wish thinking about a big cock was the most shameful thought I’ve had since he left!

    He’s luck though, I leave it a thinking. Lots of military wives don’t. Like him being gone is a good excuse. They make me want to vomit.

  • downhighway61

    come on guys. asshat is old.
    i’ve moved on to bitchwagon.

  • downhighway61

    lizim-
    lots of military wives do leave it at that though.

  • MethodMan

    Thank goodness that close-minded 666 dude is gone…
    Hey Lizim, if your in the Texas area and you still need that big cock, let me know!
    J/K…I don’t encourage that, however, I know I guy who’s a glassblower who can sculpt all sorts of custom glass dildos…

  • SlickWilly

    downhighway61: Hmm…well, bitchwagon doesn’t conjur up quite the hilarious image that asshat does. I suppose it would also depend on the context. Someone *is* an asshat; someone *rides in* the bitchwagon. Unless you are saying that someone *is* a bitchwagon. I dunno about that…

  • downhighway61

    nah a person IS a bitchwagon. i find it hilarious.
    but asshat had it’s time with me, so it’s not as funny to me anymore. although douchebag will always hold a special place in my heart.

  • SlickWilly

    MethodMan: If Lizim is like any of the military wives I know, she probably already has an impressive collection.

  • downhighway61

    hey now. i don’t have any collection. not even one!

  • SlickWilly

    downhighway61: Ah yes, douchebag is timeless. One of my favorites, if your of the LOTR type, is Douche Baggins. Also Dildo Baggins, but that one’s from the 70’s, according to my uncle.

  • MethodMan

    How about the douchebag put on his asshat, hopped in the bitchwagon, and rolled on down to pick up a fuck rag?

  • downhighway61

    you can’t hop in a bitchwagon though! that’s just crazy talk!

  • SlickWilly

    MethodMan: I could see that somewhere in a Seth Rogen movie. If delivered with the right timing and in the right situation, it would be comedy gold. Maybe switch our fuck rag for something else.

    “Hey, douchebag! How about your put on your asshat, hop in your bitchwagon over there, and roll on down to your ABA meeting!”

    “ABA?”

    “Ass Blasters Anonymous!”

  • Rocknopera

    What about Jim Jones?

  • stevenh

    re #213 kiwiboi,

    I know. I just mentioned you to separate from the other convos.

    Oh, and sry about the typo. I don’t want to start a war re 666 calling Randall “Randy” (see #74 and #95)

  • Lizim

    Slick, not an impressive collection, just an adequate one.

  • Lizim

    Downhighway: what if you are a bitch and then get in a wagon. Is it then “The Bitch Wagon”?

  • downhighway61

    hmmm. that i might consider….

  • Jono

    I spent about 20 minutes talking with some preachers this morning. I was eating breakfast, and they knocked on the door. I politely defaced their arguments. It was great.

  • I don’t have a religion. =) I love how all of the religion lists have so many comments.

  • Randall

    Slick:

    “I don’t really live in a trailer park. Just wanted to clarify.”

    I know, Slick… I know.

    Was it a dumpster, then? Or are you back in “the home?”

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Sorry I didn’t get right back to you. Asshole got in the way. And then I had to have dinner with peeps. I had some cocktails. Feel good. Now…

    Oh, I don’t deny that religion played some *part* in the persecution of the Christians–but I say it was really a fairly small one and there were far larger reasons, more vital to the Romans politically.

    As for the Greeks… you, in your comment, are referring to Homer, to the Iliad and the Odyssey. But please remember–both works are written-down versions of far older “warrior ballads” that were sung, and passed down *verbally* generation by generation. Legend places the date of their final written form as somewhere in the 6th century, but the poems could go back as far at the 9th, or further—and surely they incorporate elements of even older warrior lays from Mycenean times, when the Trojan War took place.

    But I was referring to the Greeks of the *Classical Period,* of the 5th and 4th centuries (and to some extent after, in the Hellenistic era). By that time the tales of the Olympian gods had come to be dismissed, in essence, as anything having to do with reality—and in any case, as I said, the Olympian gods were the purview mainly of the aristocratic classes… the average peasant type Greek was far less concerned with them (except for Demeter, and Dionysus) than he was with the folky spirit beliefs.

    The gods, though, became institutionalized “story” figures–to some extent believed in, of course–but they did not have the mystic power that *religions* we typically know invest in their gods.

  • Twinkle

    do you guys even know what jihad is? jihad doesn’t even mean holy war. next time there should be “top 10 misconceptions about islam” list.

  • Csimmons

    Okay, this completely off topic, but has anyone heard about the kids in georgia(in third grade by the way)who tried to kill their teacher? I just saw it on CNN and was like “WTF?!? THIRD GRADERS DID THAT?!?”

  • Lizim

    No, but are you really that surprised? I mean the next logical progression of the crazy ass stuff that goes on in public schools is murdering you teacher.

  • IS4V

    Just because something is commited in the name of religion doesn’t mean it’s representative of the religious group as a whole.

  • stevenh

    Twinkle:
    Some of us do know what a jihad is:

    Jihad is a struggle. Common usage refers to a struggle for the benefit of god’s wishes. It can be a struggle to be a better person (jihad al-nafs), more devout or, once you believe that god want the infidel gone from your midst – a jihad as-sayf (a religious sanctioned battle otherwise known as a Holy War).

    Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood (the pre-cursor to the ‘Egyptian Islamic Jihad’ organization led by Ayman al-Zawahiri), preached: “Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur’an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.”

    When al-Zawahiri merged with Bin-Laden, he brought the ideas of the international Jihad as-Sayf to al-Qaeda:
    Remove the infidel, Restore the Caliphate.

    Restoring the Caliphate is the return of a single ruler over all Islam. In on of Bin Laden’s post 9-11 tapes (I forget which one), he talks about the 80 years. Bin Laden is referencing the fall of the Ottoman rule – the last vestage of the Islamic empire.

  • CRE

    I’m a bit late adding here, but these are a few thoughts. First off, 666 sounds like that guy in the front row of Philosophy 101, who has to have his hand up at every opportunity, so that everyone knows how smart/cool/better he is. Second, saying religion is evil is like saying science is anti-God. science is an abstract concept, not a material, thinking being, so cannot be anything but itself. Same goes for religion. You can, of course, say religious people are *whatever*, but that is another issue entirely. Third, as someone with a disability, and in the middle of the housing clusterfuck here in the US, I recently founbd myself in the social services office, wherein were posted numerous offers for food and clothing banks, child care, marriage counseling, relationship-building classes, etc, with virtually all fo them sponsored by and/or hosted in churches. Of particular note, I didn’t see anything from any atheist organizations offering to help. Lastly, I do believe Muslims get a shit rap out of things. No one wants to read stories about people being nbice to each other. They want to read about tragedy and horror and violence, and, sadly, followers of Islam are the best sources for these stories now. The Koran, however, does say that Christians and Jews have their place in Heaven, although nearly no one would believe this (just as most do not realize that Allah is still the God of Abraham, and so no different than Jehovah God). Just a few points to consider.

  • stevenh

    CRE:
    It is not necessarily what is written in the Koran that is the issue.
    It is what some followers of the Koran believe and what they do in the name of the Koran, and (as pointed out in the title of this list) “in the Name of Religion”.

    In the late 1400’s Thomas de Torquemada grabbed the headlines killing about thirty thousand Jews during the Spanish Inquisition (#5 on this list). Few today believe that all Spaniards or Christians are evil or to blame.

    Today, the headlines are being grabbed by the Jihadists and decendants of al-Banna.

    As humanity survived the heresy battles of the church fanatics, one can only hope that we will survive the battles of our day.

  • CRE

    That’s my point. Muslims now get a bad rap because they make the news. Many today think all Muslims are terrorists, although that notion is ridiculous.

  • dickshoes

    haha muslims are crazy

  • jandaman

    A religion killing their own savior which they don’t believe to be their savior then persecutes another religion because the other religion says he’s their savior. THAT my friends is pretty f****d up. Personally, I wouldn’t give a f**king f**k to anything I don’t want if another guy wants it. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure they always say.

  • 666

    Bucslim said:

    “666: work with me on this one…suppose you experienced something beyond the natural, a tree talking to you, or someone rising from the dead, or your steak telling you that you should be a vegan, etc. how would you incorporate this into your belief system? would you dismiss the obvious right in front of you because it doesn’t fit? would you change what you believe? would you deny the experience?”

    DUMB!

  • Big Skye

    Randall, I want to learn at your feet. You are amazing. I could only wish to have all your knowledge. (God that sounds so asskissing, honestly I am just impressed)

  • jandaman

    Makes me want to have a religion of my own so that I can be irrational and not be accused of being one. May the great almighty supreme Spaghetti Monster show mercy on your blasphemous heretical infidel souls. Be a Jandamanian today.

  • 666

    Duschuffer…

    said that ridiculous comment…sorry for attributing such a nonsensical comment to its wrongful owner.

    Sorry!

  • Csimmons

    jandaman:Do we get free t-shirts? If so I’m in :)
    ALL HAIL THE GIANT SPAGHETTI MONSTER!

  • MethodMan

    CRE has a very good point, 666. Many organizations that deliver relief to the poor or disabled are founded and run by Christians. There has not been a single atheist I have ever met who has taken time or money of their own and used it to benefit society. ESPECIALLY atheists who, rather than try and help others, would rather go and criticize religion, calling the idea of faith evil. Unless you have another explanation, I would have to say that seems a bit hypocritical to call those of us who work hard to help others evil.

  • stevenh

    re 244: CRE

    I think you are incorrect.

    Muslims are not getting a bad rap “because they make the news”.

    The are getting a bad rap because they are:
    1) Blowing up People
    2) Blowing up Buses
    3) Blowing up Buildings
    4) Blowing up Schools
    5) Slicing the heads off journalists
    6+) 10,830 deadly terror attacks since Sept 11th, 2001

    X+) Teaching their children to enjoy and support the above atrocities

    and most of all

    X++) Not condemning the above atrocities in the strongest possible terms, from every pulpit in every mosque, in every country

  • 666

    You have the entrenched ‘following’ here that are—for the most part—believers of some sort or another; this is why I and others who criticize religion and its absurdity are ‘ganged up on’ by…stupid believers.

    Big deal.

    Randy NEVER answered one of my questions…AND

    he was ‘compelled’ to NOT post a reply to my last post…because he was relieved to be done with me.

    Randdy,

    You are a ‘baloon’ of knowledge, one poke at it reveals that you are, in fact, dereft of knowledge. You were destroyed philosophically (no matter what your fellow agnostics/believers think, as well as your apologist:shitwilly—idiot atheist apologizer).

    You may scream to everyone here about how many degrees you have etc (faith?)…it is all nonsense, you never answered my questions, you weren’t capable of answering my questions, so you went on ad hominum attacks.

    Anyone can go look shit up and post it on the listverse, but when someone corners you, you fight like a squirrel, not an intellectual.

    You are a cornered squirell Randy…the mind of a squirell, scared, agnostic (too afraid of taking a stand), unsure.

    Squirell.

  • 666

    Meth,

    You are a mental midget. Your questions don’t even warrent a ‘beat-down’ like Randy’s do.

    At least Randy’s nonsense deserves a well placed wallop across his thick cranium.

  • jasontimmer

    As a Buddhist, I’m pretty suprised at #10. I have never seen anything in any Buddhist scripture that condones killing. In fact, it’s one of the precepts that Buddhists recieve on lay ordination: do not kill. Maybe this was some fringe sect.

  • jasontimmer

    er…#8 sorry

  • CRE

    Stevenh: I’m not sure from where you pulled your post 9/11 data, but regardless, the issue is this. Muslim = terrorist suffers from a serious, but simply logical falacy: namely that correlation = causation. Even if your statistic is correct, 11,000 acts of violence by a group of well over 1 Billion people is hardly a majority (it’s on the order of 0.00001% of Muslims commited these attrocities). Again, hardly a majority. If you live in an area where Christian settlers are actively fighting Muslim or Jewish citizens, the Christians would be the ones looking bad. Again, no one cares about the good people do, only the bad. Fanatics, regardless of their flavour, do not represent the whole. It is also worth considering the evils we do daily to each other. Yes, a fanatic blowing up a building is horrible, and may kill several hundred people, but how many people die daily because you want to be a part of our world of consumerism? I’m not going to go into it, but suffice it to say, there’s a pretty good chance that people are suffering right now because of your choices. DO you belong to a group (Christian, democrat, Muslim, atheist, male/female, white, black, latino, poker player, ListVerse reader)? Does the fact that you buy sneakers made in Chinese sweatshops make that group evil? Should we declare all ListeVersers to be evil, tyrants, in bed with the great Satan, because some of them buy Ivory Coast chocolate? Individuals are evil, not organizations (even the Nazis could be the equivelant of the Girl Scouts, had their members not taken a different path). MMMMMM, Nazi Girl cookies…..

  • MethodMan

    666- Well you never even had much of an argument in the first place other than saying ‘Occam’s Razor’ proved there was no God. Other than all I could read was petty insults. So if calling me a mental midget is answering my question, you have done nothing more than validated my point and made yourself look childish and rude. I’m glad I know other atheists that aren’t bitchy little brats like you are. Have a good night and God bless your misguided soul! :D

  • Clovis Sangrail

    wow… no contest, and the list is at 257 comments :)

    Which concludes my theory that the number of comments in the list is directly proportional to how “controversial” the list is :)

  • 666

    Here is a synopsis of listverse:

    JFrater: indifferent.
    Randall: pompous know it all, who really knows very little.
    Dischucker: Dumb.
    Mom: Honest, smart, but naïve.
    Slickwilly: Clever, smart, but dishonest and an apologist.
    CSimmons: Honest, young, fun.

    The threads would be much better if each reply could be directed at one particuler response, instead of posting: RE post#…etc. it would enable people to engage in conversation without having to endure comments like:

    “wow, cool list…blah blah blah, blahblahblah; blah.”

  • 666

    Wait! I forgot one!

    MethodMan: Methodist mental midget (MMM)

  • MethodMan

    I’m honored, 666.

  • 666, How about discribing yourself.
    Be honest and try not to be cocky about it.
    “Thanks’

  • jasontimmer

    Clovis- I’d have to agree. I mean, people don’t talk much about things in which everyone is in agreement.

  • jasontimmer

    You never hear athiests attack Buddhists. Why not? (Not that I’m inviting an attack, mind you)

  • stevenh

    CRE:
    I did not write, nor imply that ALL Muslims are terrorists, nor did I say that all terror attacks are committed by muslim.

    When I say that Roman Catholics established the Spanish Inquisition, I do not say that every Catholic was guilty.

    I do believe that those Muslims who party on the street to celebrate these acts are equally guilty.

    I do believe that those Muslims that support the teaching of the children that it’s ok to kill the president of the United States in the name of Allah are equally guilty.

    Terror attacks source:
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2001-2003.htm
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2004.htm
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2005.htm
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2006.htm
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2007.htm

    Teach the Children
    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1729.htm

    CRE:
    Please what this video, share your thoughts about it….

  • 666

    Blog,

    ok. Honest.

    666: Honest, unapologetic, grating, abrasive, intelligent in what he knows, but does not pretend to know what he doesn’t know.

  • stevenh

    666:

    Whew, I’m glad I’m not on that list

    ;)

  • CRE

    jasontimmer: Because religious fights are power strugles. Christians hold a huge power base, especially in the US, and, by and large, it’s power the Atheists want. Why do you think absitinence education and evolution are such hot topics? DO you think all atheists are just so altruistic that they just realy, really want to help everyone find the truth in the world? Or is it because of something else, something more visceral. Of course, the distinction here should be made that I talk about atheist fanatics, not atheists in general. Same way that many of the Christians who fight back are fanatical in thier actions. Buddhists, sadly, do not command that power. They are not that big of a hreat, ergo they emerge largely unscathed, unless the atheist evangelist wants a change of pace for the day.

  • 666

    Jason,

    I personally respect Buddhism…it is almost (and in many cases) atheistic.

  • 666

    Steve,

    HAHAHA

  • stevenh

    CRE:
    I did not write, nor imply that ALL Muslims are terrorists, nor did I say that all terror attacks are committed by Muslim.

    When I say that Roman Catholics established the Spanish Inquisition, I do not say that every Catholic was guilty.

    I do believe that those Muslims who party on the street to celebrate these acts are equally guilty.

    I do believe that those Muslims that support the teaching of the children that it’s ok to kill the president of the United States in the name of Allah are equally guilty.

    The link to sources are on a moderation hold – we’ll have to wait until Jamie goes back online to see them, I suppose.

  • stevenh

    Teaching the Children

    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1729.htm

    CRE:
    Please watch this video, share your thoughts about it…

  • 666

    CRE,

    Silly response to Jason.

    Again, I must define ATHEISM to a beliver:

    Atheist: Lack of belief in a god, i.e. lack of thesim. No more or less.

    Your argument about “power struggles” was just DUMB!

    Buddism is more like a philosophy than a religion, i.e. it doesn’t hold itself to silly premises like: “the Earth is 6000 years old”. How the fuck do you respect that?

    I like Buddism.

  • StinkyTheCat

    I don’t know about any of you, but i’m sick of 666. he sounds more like an arrogant jerk with each post (not just with this list, but others as well). he needs to grow up and learn to respect others for their ideas and views.

    Shut up. you are breaking jfrater’s number 3 request and i’m sick of it.

    i come on here to relax and get a laugh at what people have to say…but i always come across you and and your thoughtless and immature commments (which always seem to be degrading someone or something) and i shake my head and sigh. are you one of those people who have nothing to do but sit and piss people off, screaming from the inside, “look at me! look at me!” alright. you’ve done your little song and dance, now shut the frig up and stop ruining this for all of us.

  • jasontimmer

    666- thanks. We think of ourselves as “non-theistic.”

    CRE- I don’t know about that. I think most atheists are simply searching for Truth. I’m sure there are plenty with which it’s a power struggle, but most are honest.

    IMHO, I think the biggest reason Buddhists go unchallenged by atheists and others is that Buddhist beliefs are much harder to deny than Christian ones. Any thoughts?

  • stevenh

    666

    I am wondering why you do not address me by my stated tag ‘stevenh’?

    Have I disrespected you in any way?
    Should you not offer respect to all others?

    After all, if I called you ‘6’ – wouldn’t that be just a bit presumtious?

  • CRE

    Steven: I never mis-inferred anything from your Muslim posts. I am merly an ecuminicist, and believe that all of the followers of Abraham should pull together under our similarities, not continue dividing and redividing oursleves. A house divided canot stand. I also think that the way modern Americans view Muslims is only about one step short of a witch hunt. I also believe that a little clarification can only do good. That was the point of my posts.

    Jason: Yes, I agree that many atheists are seeking truth. What I said was that the power struggle is most fiery between atheists and Christians, which lets a lot of other beliefs skate by without atracting as much flak. My post was about atheist fanatics, not atheists in general. As far as Buddhist beliefs, here are my thoughts: most Budhist belief very closely folow the teachings (that is to say are similar to, not derived from) of Jesus. Most Atheists cannot argue against most Christian beliefs. “Oh no, this do unto others thing makes no sense….” All they argue against is the belief in God, but there are a lot of good, logical proofs for the existence of God. Moreso than reincarnaton and Karma, so I guess I woudl say that there is stronger evidence for Christianity. No logical proof exists (that I know of) for reincarnation and Karma, and the notion that the universe will punish or reward you is not dissimilar from God rewarding and punishing you.

    666-You’re absolutely corect. My post to Jason probably is incapable of intelligent speech. That makes two of you.

  • StinkyTheCat

    and this especially goes out to methodman-

    how DARE you say atheists and agnostics don’t compare to those of a theistic religion when giving to the needy. i have probably done a helluva lot more charity work than you EVER have, and i don’t need to do under the title of Christian or Jewish. okay, so give yourself the gold star of the day Mr. Super Do-Gooder Christian. What a fake. so are you saying that the only reason people give to charity is to please God?? Wow. and here i thought that you people actually did it for the good of mankind. sad. the point is, i do a great deal of good for this world, and that’s so typical Christian of you to sit and criticize others who don’t naturally believe the same as you. basic atheist and agnostic belief is “Hey. That’s great you have something to believe in, but i’m still thinking about that” the only stupid “atheists” who criticize others’ religions, are those pesky immature adolescents who want to rebel and seem “bad ass”. methodman, when you finally do grow up, and meet actual atheists, you’ll realize that.

    and ps- Christians, Catholics, etc. only do charity work because God tells them too. Unitarian Universalists, the sect created from certain Christian beliefs, do it because it is the right thing. please don’t mix it up to glorify yourself.

  • stevenh

    According to my understanding: ecuminicist == a follower of worldwide Christian unity.

    Is there an implication that the other ‘followers of Abraham’ should be joining up? I am not asking this as a flame war. I do not understand the details of the dogma of your belief.

    Oh, and to say that a “house divided can not stand” seems to say that one must not be critical of members of the same house. If house mates are blowing up a bus – sorry, I’m going to condemn that act, and hold them apart and responsible.

  • 666

    Stevenh,

    No, you have not “disrespected me, in any way.”

    HAHAHA

    Stink cat,

    Boo Hoo, Wahhhh.

    Jason,

    What other position could you be except “non-theistic”, I agree.

    CRE: Said…” All they argue against is the belief in God, but there are a lot of good, logical proofs for the existence of God. ”

    Um…

    Can you give me a “logical proof” for god?

    …So that I can smash the fucker 520 feet…dead center.

  • jasontimmer

    CRE- I understand where you were coming from with the “fanatic” argument. (I hope you weren’t referring to me with “that makes two of you”)

    As far as evidence of God, I agree totally. That is why we Buddhists refer to ourselves as “non-theistic” rather than “atheistic.” The agruments for and against God are equally valid, which is why we don’t talk about it. The existence of God, I believe, is entirely beside the point in terms of the search for Truth.

    As far as reincarnation and karma, I again understand where you are coming from, but I feel strongly that most non-Buddhists (and actually, most Buddhists as well) completely misunderstand both concepts, which is why they find them so hard to believe. I feel that if people better understood what these mean, they would have an easier time seeing these concepts act in their lives. They were based not on some belief handed down, unquestioned, from generation to generation, but rather observed phenomenon in daily life. At your request I can attempt to explain my understanding of reincarnation and karma.

  • StinkyTheCat

    hmmm.. let me guess…15? 16? can’t get a date? just a loser sitting behind a computer with nothing to do but blurt ignorant and rude smut, which makes us start to think that mental retardation has begun to set in. Perhaps you should try internet dating or go to some random porn site and alleviate your teenage angst.

  • CRE

    steven: you are basically correct about the definition of ecuminicist, although I tend to believe it should cover all 3 Abrahamic religions. Imagine the strength if Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, and Jews presented a unified front, for the shared glory of God, instead of fighting each other. The house divided comment was meant to imply that if these faiths keep fighting, they will destroy themselves.

    Stinky: I agre it is off-base to say that atheists are not altruistic, but it is just as wrong to say Christians only do it to make God happy. Most of it do it for each other, as a virtue. Virtue comes from character, not fear of punishment.

  • StinkyTheCat

    cre, thanks for understanding. it’s just that most of the theistic people i know only do it becuase they feel it’s their religious duty.

  • 666

    No Jason,

    Here is a HUGE misunderstanding:

    There is no such thing as an “argument againt the belief in god”, the indictment is against the arguments FOR a god. It is these arguments that are denounced and attacked, rendered philosophically childish; which then elevates Atheism to its proper place in the DEFAULT postion of logic. Cafe closed. Period. End of story. Bring some emperical evidence. Thank you.

    This is called weak atheism: the belief that atheism—and thus materialism—is the default position of metaphysics.

    666 is also in the default position of: Yeti, atlantis, and man eating plants.

  • CRE

    666: go read Aquinas. In fact, I believe the links to his works were in an earlier post, on the does God exist post. The cosmological argument for God is my preferred one. SO yeagh, go ahead and explainb what the original, uncaused first cause was, and you’l have proven yourself smarter then 1500 years of philosophers.

    Jason: I was absolutely not referring to you in the that makes two of you comment. That was directed towards 666, or resident “Philosophy for Dummies” expert. As for the karma/reincarnation bit, I understand them very well. ONe of my undergrad degrees is a BA in Philosophy with a religious studies endorsement, so I’ve studied Buddhism quite extensivel. Lol, as an aside, my profesor was a dead monk on the movie “Kundun”. Anyways, but yeah, I actualy am not entirely against the concept of reincarnation, and even Judaism (which spends little time addressing the afterlife) has provisions for it, although not in the same manner as Buddhists. As for karma, I believe in it, kind of, although I think that the mystical elements that are added to it by Buddhism detract from what could be a completely workable humanistic theory. Specifically, the actions we do have repurcussions for ourselves and others, and often times we are punished for wrong choices by means of natural consequence. For example, if I live modestly, keep what I need, and give the rest as alms, then, if a recssion hits, I wil have a much less dificult time than if I live greedily, spending madly on credit cards in an endless orgy of self-worship, leaving me, during that same recession, with a house I cannot afford, cars I cannot afford, credit card bils I cannot pay, the accompanying utilities for an mmodest dwelling, and so forth, all due to my gluttony. If you want to contact me offlist, I would be happy to have a private conversation about my understanding of Buddhism.

  • 666

    All the ad hominum attacks against poor ‘666’ has not rendered ONE “logical proof” for god!

    HAHAHA!

    Good ole ‘666’ is just sitting here in his DEFAULT position WAITING!

    Why does ‘666’ get to sit in the coveted DEFAULT position, you may ask? Well, because ‘666’ is not claiming belief in ANYTHING! (Ironic when humble ole…’666′ is chided as arrogant!?) Therefore, by rules of simple LOGIC, the person putting forth a belief in SOMETHING—anything—must provide EVIDENCE for the belief.

    NO evidence = No belief.

    No belief = Atheism as DEFAULT

    Rather simple when you think about it? No?

  • jasontimmer

    CRE- forgive the noob- how do I contact you offlist? (I’m interested now- I remember the religion course I took in college- I had to frequently correct the instructor regarding what he was teaching about Buddhism)I have a feeling we will come to the same conclusion I have come to in every other theological discussion- that we are saying the exact same thing in different words. (You should read a paper I wrote for my college Sociology class titled “The Relativity of Faith- an essay addressing the question ‘are there right and wrong religions?'”) I’d be overjoyed to email it to you- it was well received among many “spiritual circles” of many faiths.

  • 666

    Another addition!

    CRE: Mystic

  • 666

    Another addition!

    Jasonstalker: Internet predator

  • 666

    Mr. Gentleman Jason-stalker would be “OVERJOYED”!

  • jasontimmer

    Ok- 666- what little respect I had for you concerning your past posts re: Buddhism has been completely eradicated. Why are you wasting your time here? This is a place for intelligent conversation, not childish jokes.

  • 666

    Mr. Stalker,

    Why are you not “OVERJOYED” anymore? “OVERJOYED” to meet a stranger on a message board!? HAHAHA

  • CRE

    666-Nice rebuttal of my logical proof. It was so good I can’t even see it. Also, stop confusing atheism as a statement about the belief in God with a statement about the existence of God. Just because you have not experienced enough evidence to support your belief in God, does nothing to cover statements about the existence of God.

    Jason-the easiest way to contact me offlist is either to IM in yahoo (if you can), or email. Just put your address up here as blah_A_blah.com. DOn’t use the @ symbol, because of spambots. I’d rather you put your address up, since, if I put mine, 666 will probably add me to every gay porn mailing list he can find.

    Stinky-You bring up another point that is very key to this. You say most Christians you know are generous for the wrong reasons. If they are not following the teachings of Christ, however, are they Christian (if Muslims kill Jews, despite the Koran’s instructions not to, are they really Muslims)? My preferred analogy are these sports nuts you see, who wear football jerseys, can spout every stat, every play, and Tivo ESPN. Just because they are wearing these clothes and acting like this, are they football players? Of course not. No matter how much they wish they were, or might tell others that they are/were. On the other hand, I still have my high school jersey. I can claim to have been a football player (and still could, but for my knee), because I lived the life of a football player. I did the 2 a days during August. I gave up breaks. I ran miles. I did the hard stuff, as well as the fun stuff. Faux Christians are the same way. They may go to church every week, donate, tithe, etc, but they aren’t willing to do the harder work, like not gossiping, not worshipping themselves, their jobs, status in the neighbourhood, money, etc. If someone claims to be X, but does Y, which is contrary to X, then they are not X. If I claim to be Christian, but steal from you, I’m not truly CHrsitian, so Christians cannot be blamed for my bad actions, since I am, definitionally, not one of them.

  • jasontimmer

    CRE- let me get a disposable email together quick. I’ll post when I can.

  • jasontimmer

    CRE- send me your email at [email protected]
    I couldnt care less about spambots or 666 since I won’t use it again after this.

  • 666

    Wow! Someone is posting homophobic posts…in my name. Post #296 is not from “The” ‘666’…it is either CRE or Jasontimmer, either way…that is the saddest ad hominum yet.

  • CRE

    OK Jason, one sec.

    666-Labeling me a Mystic is no more insulting than labeling me a WASP. I am what I am.

  • jasontimmer

    Interesting- I always had respect and and inquisitive nature toward people who called themselves “mystics.” Why does it seem now there is a negative connotation to the word?

  • CRE

    666-Put away the “Logic for Dummies” book, casue you’ve strayed off of the path. Ad Hominem-to attack someone’s character instead of their argument. A) You don’t have an argument (except woo, default position, so it MUST be right), and b) You don’t seem to have much character, either. Also, I wasn’t attacking what character you may or may not have, I was simply explaining the lengths to which I would expect you to go, in order to explain why I wouldn’t post a good email addy up here. Also, the default position is not “there is no God”. There is no default position. God explains quite a bit in the metaphysical realm, and there are arguments (such as the uncaused first cause and first mover arguments) to support God. Your default argument is “something happened, but I do not know what it is, but I’m ok being ignorant, and through my ignorance, I’m smarter than everyone else”. You can’t fall back on the Big Bang, because something caused that (Laws of Thermodynamics). So, if not God, then you need to prove what happened instead of God, so, in actuality, the default position (until a physicist can prove otherwise) is “God did it”. QED

  • 666

    JFrater,

    RE: post 296

    Maybe you should put the settings for screen names so that people can’t impersonate others.

  • CRE

    Jason: got me. Mystical experience is above and beyond anything ordinary. As a Buddhist, you should know that, since that is what meditation is. I learned to meditate from a Muslim, so my meditation tends more towards suffi teachings, but the Buddhist meditative practices are pretty good too. Interestingly, through mystical experience, you can literaly see God, which kind of takes away from that whole no evidence thing 666 keeps spouting. None so blind as those who wil not see, right?

  • jasontimmer

    CRE- good argument. One theory (my own, and one I’m still struggling with) is that, in a sense, there was no big bang, no cause, no movement, we’re still in that singularity where all is one, and everything we experience is somewhat of an illusion brought on by consciousness. Actually, as hard as it is to believe, it would explain alot…

  • CRE

    Jason: step away from the Matrix.

  • jasontimmer

    CRE- post 305- you’re getting to the core of why i believe that both arguments about God are equally valid. Sometimes I ask people, if it were proven, scientifically, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that God either does or does not exist, would it change anything about how you live you life? Probably not. This is why I think the existence of God is not the point, but rather how we live our daily lives.

  • CRE

    Jason:actualy, back when the Matrix first came out, Maxim magazine had a whole article about the philosophical basis for the movie. There was a philosopher mentioned on whose views the Matrix was based, and that you would probably really enjoy. Can’t remember his name though (but if you wiki it, you can probably find it).

  • jasontimmer

    CRE- 307- haha. Still, though, lots of “the Matrix” came from ancient spiritual beliefs, right? Maybe youre right though, I’ve strayed a bit far off the beaten path.

  • 666

    Sorry CRE,

    Your argument regresses to an ad absurdum of infinate gods. Only college freshman trot out that tired old argument—what’s next, Paley?—all you have done is invert logic, so, because science does not not know what was before the big bang…then insert “god did it” (Dummies book?)…then say DISPROVE IT!?

    Holy shit DUMMY!

  • 666

    I will leave you two lovers to your mystical bliss.

  • CRE

    Jason: I agree, although I would speculate that there are more than a few people whose lives are predicated on the existence/nonexistence issue. Specifically, I would be willing to wager money that there are Christians (for example) who would abandon much of their morality if they felt there was no punishment for doing so, and, conversely, some humanists (and, truthfully, probably more than a few Christians) who would become more moral as a result of knowing that there was a higher being to which they would have to answer.

  • CRE

    666: once again, I offer you a logical argument for God, and you just skip around it, throwing about tired latin phrases from Intro to Logic. Something had to have happened to create existence. The best a priori thinking can offer us is God (discounting, of course, the personal experiences people have had, and revalation that has been given, since that is difficult to substantiate). There is no ad absurdum issue here. I’m not speculating infinite gods, or anything similar. If a God didn’t create existence, then what did? Can you prove to me the alternative? I can claim disbelief about the alternative as much as you can claim disbelief about God. Your ignorant, plain and simple, and you are arguing from that definitional ignorance.

  • CRE

    666-And I never said “disprove God”. Simply give me a better explanation, with more proof, and I’ll be right over there with you preaching the truth.

  • jasontimmer

    CRE- It might just be better to take 666 up on his offer to leave.

  • jandaman

    Convert thee soulless heathen pagan infidels to our mighty religion. Lest our best prophet Jesumoha Ramagauta Smith shall smite thy lands with STDs so rampant you wouldn’t do a cat. Oh and you get a free t-shirt for a nominal fee of 30 silver pieces and have you soul saved as a bonus. And if you convert now, just add 10 Dinars and you can avail of the 80 virgins for 80 seconds tax free.

  • Alejandro

    Religion is bad because it’s based on dogma. Fascism and communism were bad because they’re very much like religions.

    Scientists have commited atrocities too, by the way. Eugenics, the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, etc.

    Religion will end eventually.

  • jasontimmer

    Alejandro- not all religion is based on dogma. It could even be said that no religion is based on dogma, only some of it has come to be that way via politics. There is nothing inherently “bad” about religion, and I doubt highly that religion will do anything but evolve over time.

  • -I havent read all comments-

    About text of Jihad… Your given examples are no different than any empire did at that time. Expanding the territory, conquering the world, gaining more tax income… The Islamic State did no more no less than any other empire.

  • About #22
    ——-
    -please pardon my bad translation-
    (Sura 2: 190.) says:
    Fight against who fight to you but dont go over board. Becasue Allah doesnt like fanatics.

    also
    (Sura2: 193) also says:
    …If they give up fighting, then only fight against cruel people.

    (Sura2: 191) says: “kill them whereever you find” but then adds “only fight them, if they fight you 1st”

    Sura2: 194 says “…whoever attacks you, attack them back but dont go overboard…”

  • Jono

    Randall:

    You’re horribly bitter for how mature you claim to be. From what I can see, you’re nothing but a failure trying to be the alpha-male of this one website. Rich. Try to stay on topic without resulting to frivolous insults.

    Anyway, I don’t know how The Crusades weren’t in this list. They were the very definition of this list. =/

  • sad

    These comments make my heart hurt :(
    They have changed this list from a place to conduct valid debates on subjects and theories to put other people and their beliefs down. I think it’s about time everyone grew up a little bit.

    It’s like everyone forgot “comment posting request” #3

  • sad

    sorry, I meant “to putting other people….”

    It’s late, I cannot vouch for my spelling/grammatical skills past 1 am.

  • jasontimmer

    Jono- I agree that the crusades probably should have made #1 or close, though I don’t know off the top of my head how many people were killed/tortured during those days.

  • Wiseguy

    Like Lezhog and many others I would have tried to explain the context of why these mindless killings took place. However, I do not feel compelled to do so becase this list is called Atrocities committed in the “Name of Religion”. To me, that somewhat implies that people who use religion as an excuse to kill others, which in turn implies that if an extremist Bhuddist or Muslim or Christian misinterprets or deliberately misuses his religion to justify the killings.

    Hence, there is no need to take offense.

  • jasontimmer

    Wiseguy- well put. I only hope more people in the world could understand that these things happen not because of religion, but because of misguided people. I feel strongly that the main message of almost all religions is peace and unity, and it is only when ignorant, hateful people bastardize these beliefs that bad things happen.

  • suzi

    I would like to point out that nationalism might as well be a religion , and and has the same effect of people, making them willing to kill people they do not know who have done nothing to them.
    Think about it: there are the songs, the rituals (saluting the flag, ect), the icons (flag), the indoctrination of small children. The demand for unquestioning obedience. The promise that if you die in the act of fighting the “enemy” you will bring honor to you and your family.

  • unfortunately I had to go to bed early last night so I was not here to monitor the comments – as the comments here continue on, can we all be respectful of each other? :) You don’t have to believe or like someone else’s religion, but be honest with your comments and have integrity – no personal putdowns!

  • jasontimmer

    jfrater- thanks, I think we all needed that. It got a little out of hand here. I still haven’t gone to bed (12 hour shift) so I’m still in the mood for some intelligent discussion. Gosh, it just hit me- I’ll still be up another 6 hours or so- oh, to be a nurse- and a Buddhist, too…

  • Cancacan

    I have only read this list now, but Amanda (no2).. Christianity it not about that at all.
    Ask 4 million Jews, and half of Ireland, and they will tell you that Christianity is really not as Happy go Lucky as your church may have you believe. Christianity is as cruel a religion as any other.

  • Daemon

    …ok…where the HELL are the Crusades?

  • JT

    “I’m not saying that atheism is a belief system like theism is. I’m saying that atheism is a fundamental axiom that pins together a system of beliefs. No atheism is not a belief system, but atheists worth their salt have a world view that corresponds to this single, fundamental belief. Not that atheism is the *basis* for those beliefs – as we all know correlation does not equal causation – however, the non-existence of God does indeed prove problematic for a great number of existential questions that almost everyone must be able to come to terms with, and thus a belief system arises from the critical aspect that is the consequence of a disbelief in god.”

    OK, I agree with this, but I don’t think the word “problematic” is quite the right one. I think that the number of questions arising from a theistic perspective on life are far greater and more problematic than those arising from a humanist perspective.

  • Daemon: read the comments above. I only included one atrocity per religious group. Also, the majority of the crusades were not bad – they were in defense against Islamic attacks and takeovers of previously non-Islamic lands.

    Crusades 1 – 3, and 5 – 8 were over land taken by Muslims
    Crusade 4 was also over land, but resulted in the sacking of Constantinople which was a terrible thing though probably not an atrocity by modern standards of thinking.

    You can read more about them here:

    https://listverse.com/history/the-8-crusades-explained

  • 666 (#304): Unfortunately this is not possible because we have the settings enabled to allow unregistered people to comment – if we changed to registered only this would not happen.

  • jasontimmer

    jfrater- please tell me #8 was the only one you could find on Buddhism (I was mortified)

  • jasontimmer: it wasn’t – there was also other stuff – the next worst probably being Sri Lankan buddhism (problems are still occurring there today).

  • jasontimmer

    yeesh- just goes to show how far the followers of any belief system can stray from the original teachings. I’m a soto Zen student myself, and I guess I have to also consider that Zen was very popular among samurai years ago, and those guys weren’t exactly known for their pacifism.

  • jasontimmer: that is true and raises an interesting point, that so often religion and culture become so intermingled that it is difficult to see which is which.

  • jasontimmer

    jfrater- right you are. I think one of the reasons Zen was so appealing to samurai is that steady practice of Zen tends to enhance one’s combat ability. I’m sure they were willing to take any advantage they could get.

    I would also think that, in most parts of the world, any given culture is so dependent on the popular religion that it would be about impossible to imagine either isolated from the other.

  • ali hayat

    this is just one more biased article, although i personally appreciate your research. islam is a religion of peace and none of you can properly understand its true nature and meaning unless u research more

  • ali hayat: I don’t understand why you think it is biased – you would obviously not say it if Islam was not included here. Can you name 5 Islamic people who did great acts of love or kindness toward non-Muslims? Forget about the bad guys – we all know who they are, but if Islam really is a religion of peace, can you give me some examples?

  • longball

    ali hayat- yea…explain how this is biased? the article included most major religions, not just Islam. And if your going to bitch, at least show some damned respect and capitalize the religion your defending!

  • Randall

    666:

    Honest to god, I suggest you get some help. Some kind of counseling… something. Because you have a serious issue with balance. Maybe you’re just a kid, I don’t know… but things you said earlier made it sound like you were at least in your mid-to-late 20s, if not older. In any case, you seem to have this bizarre NEED to trounce people, and try to embarrass them, belittle them, etc., and pump yourself up as some superior logical mind—even when you haven’t gained the slightest victory or “won” anything whatsoever. It wouldn’t be so bad except that it doesn’t *stop.* It’s a sick kind of hyper-competitiveness. Beyond mere polemicism.

    Naturally I don’t expect you to take this advice, I expect you to mock it and accuse me of… well, god knows what. Playing some defensive game or something, I imagine. I can only shrug my shoulders at that… I frankly have better things to do. I have some pity for you, but only so much. Beyond that I hardly care. Perhaps you’re particularly angry with me because I mocked your faith in Ayn Rand’s “philosophies” and whatnot… oh well. If that’s the case, it’s clear you’re an immensely insecure individual who needs to lash out when challenged, for deep fear that if he doesn’t, his world will come crumbling down. I have some suspicion that this is the case. And I’ll frankly admit that people like you scare me, because your life is such a house of cards that there’s no telling what you might do if it fell apart. You display no humor or humility at any time, only a constant, unending smugness that, I’m sorry to tell you, is pathetic.

    You seem to feel it wounds me to keep saying that I am nothing but a “pompous know-it-all who really knows nothing.” Just as you single others out for similar tirades and labeling. It reminds me of the bully who tries to grind other people’s faces in the dirt because this makes him feel like a big man. But naturally, as is always the case, you’re nothing of the kind–you’re a very small man with raging insecurities and this wild lashing out is your only way to protect yourself. Sad, but at the same time rather repulsive and bizarre.

    At any rate, it wounds me not in the least, 666. My persona and character speak for themselves, both on this site and in my personal life. I hardly fear being labeled by the likes of you.

    And quite frankly, you do only a disservice to yourself. The very idea that a grown man would come on a web site and go around insulting people’s spiritual beliefs, in some twisted gambit to “win” (whatever it is that we’re supposedly “winning” here) is not only rude in the extreme–it’s downright sickening. Never at my most ragingly atheist would I have done such a thing–I always believed that spirituality was (and I felt should be) a personal decision, and that it should be respected, no matter what I personally thought of it. Granted, I have no patience for fundamentalist bigots, but in point of fact I have actually met very few of them in my lifetime. Perhaps I’ve just been lucky; perhaps it’s living where I live, where such people are few and far between.

    At any rate, you, on the other hand, clearly have no respect for anyone’s intellect or position’s but your own, and whatever or whomever it is you worship in your small little world. Perhaps it’s down, also, to the different ways we were raised. I may be acerbic and sarcastic sometimes and violate this a bit, but I was raised to respect certain boundaries and certainly not to go out of my way to attempt to humiliate others. You, rather, seem to enjoy it and need it.

    But of course I’m not the least bit humiliated. I’m simply disgusted. My spiritual beliefs have been won after a lifetime of questioning, investigating, and seeing things with my mind and eyes that have deeply affected me. The very idea that I should have to defend such things and see them mocked and belittled by the rank, provincial, and small-minded likes of you just turns my stomach.

    Yes, I am humble enough, and I hope wise enough, to admit that I don’t know all things–in fact, I feel that I know very little. I’m humbled by the universe and what little I *have* seen of it, and I’m humbled by the great minds I’ve encountered both in books and in real life, during my lifetime.

    My face on this web site is a persona, a facet of my real character but nevertheless a mask of sorts. It’s fun to debate about certain intellectual matters, but spirituality I am perpetually uncomfortable with—not because I have any insecurities about my own, but because I am ever fearful of harming or insulting someone else’s. I don’t mind taking jabs at someone’s taste in music or art or books, things like that. But I dislike the idea, intensely, of attacking (or for that matter defending) someone’s spirituality. That’s a matter beyond science and, yes, logic. It’s personal to me, and personal to others. And while I certainly don’t mind a little boxing about even this, now and then… it reaches a point for me where it’s both in extremely bad taste and extremely “small.”

  • DiscHuker

    666: two points…

    1)you didn’t answer the question.
    2)you called me dumb (falling back to an ad-hominem attack)

    here’s my guess. you will respond with some sort of butchering of my screen name. very clever. you will say that this has no bearing on the argument. maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. that is beside the point. you will continue to not answer the question and will pose one of your own and then yell at me for asking you to answer the question again.

    prove me wrong.

  • stevenh

    Good Morning Randall:

    Very well written.

    Thank you,

    /stevenh
    (note to 666: not steve, steven or steve-o)

  • JLo

    Um, in post 289 is 666 speaking of himself in third person?

    Now that does disturb me.

  • bucslim

    #261

    I guess my pithy rants, acute observations, and snark factor have largely gone unnoticed to the resident asshole and don’t deserve their own juvenile reduction. Possibly because I choose to argue with someone who is rational and occasionally might make me titter and snort.

    I just wish that someday the list comments wouldn’t boil down to two things: George Bush being a jagov, and God vs. No God.

    Pfft, who am I kidding, I love this shit, so help me . . . uh so help me God!

  • Randall

    bucslim:

    Would love to discuss the ancient Greeks sometime. I had no idea we shared that interest.

  • bucslim

    Randall,

    I know you got your attention diverted with what’s his name and probably didn’t have time to pick up where we left off. I’m more interested and probably better equipped to handle the Roman thing but really you can’t study one without the other right?

    My final class in my undergraduate career was studying Livy. I sorta picked up the Greek side on my own. Which gives you a picture into my sad little life, reading Greek history and culture for pleasure probably isn’t a key feature of a ‘babe magnet.’ More like a creepy pasty troll who lives in a mud hut.

    And I probably can’t keep up with you today, I’ve got a show to produce tonight.

  • Randall

    “…reading Greek history and culture for pleasure probably isn’t a key feature of a ‘babe magnet.’ More like a creepy pasty troll who lives in a mud hut.”

    Hardly, dude. Reading fantasy and sci-fi for pleasure, at our age, would be more indicative of that. But expanding your intellect with the history of the Greeks, or history of art, or whatever–no no no. Won’t impress too many bimbos, but I never went in for bimbos myself. One of the greatest and best relationships I ever had, in fact, was with a woman who was into this kind of thing…

    and I can’t keep up today either. I’m not in the best mood… I kind of encountered a personal loss recently, and I was reminded of it last night–related to what I just said. So my heart’s not in this today.

  • bhoges

    Randall:
    You said of 666 in comment 343:

    “The very idea that a grown man would come on a web site and go around insulting people’s spiritual beliefs, in some twisted gambit to “win” (whatever it is that we’re supposedly “winning” here) is not only rude in the extreme–it’s downright sickening. Never at my most ragingly atheist would I have done such a thing–I always believed that spirituality was (and I felt should be) a personal decision, and that it should be respected, no matter what I personally thought of it. Granted, I have no patience for fundamentalist bigots”

    Why then, back in comment 68, did you ridicule 666 by stating

    “It sounds a great deal, to me, like the kind of thing Scientologists spew up from time to time. Rather like something Tom Cruise would say.”

    And if you’re as mature and open-minded as you purport to be, why did you proceed to call him an asshole, muthafucka, etc.

    I’ve noticed that you’ve commented to the point of becoming “top commenter,” and that most of your missives throughout the lists of this website have been attempts at ridiculing others / pontificating / apotheosising yourself.
    It seems to me that you’re all the things you accuse 666 of being.

  • bucslim

    Randall, my sincere condolences. I hope things work out for the best.

  • rneiderman

    Randall & bucslim- I guess I have to check back with this site hourly! I can’t believe all the comments since I posted!
    It sounds like we’re all arguing relative interpretation in regards to religious motivation of Roman persecutions of Christians. You get Phd’s debating the same things, never really getting anywhere. As far as the comments on ancient Greek religion, I haven’t spent as much time on it. In college, I tended to favor Rome and the medieval period, which still occupies most of my leisure reading today.
    Also, Randall, too bad you got stuck fighting a troll. I make it a point not to respond to their type. Too much agitation for nothing.

  • SlickWilly

    I just can’t believe what the hell is happening here. Total, unfettered lunacy.

  • Chris

    this is why I don’t really believe in religion, although I do enjoy Christmas. Maybe its just me, but at least the modern jihads don’t make any sense to me. They blow themselves up, which not only diminishes their ranks, but also makes the jihadists unpopular with the people that must suffer through the violence, when there certainly could be peace.

  • SlickWilly

    Chin up, Randall, we’ll keep the seat warm for you. Very sorry about your loss.

  • SlickWilly: I have made a point of commenting above to ask that people be a little more respectful of each other – hopefully that will happen from now on!

  • Randall

    bucslim, Slick:

    Whoa whoa whoa, guys… sorry, I didn’t mean to sound so dramatic… I’m just not in a good mood. It was really several weeks ago… and an old friend I hadn’t talked to in a long time–though there’s more to it than that. I just got kinda melancholic about it last night because it was my b-day dinner with a bunch of people… you know what I mean. Middle-age crap. Nothing serious. I’m just not up for arguing with weirdos today. And of course I don’t mean you two guys… though yes, you are both weird. But in a good way.

    Thanks

  • Randall

    On the upside, I walked out of my office this AM, and there was a student, a girl, sitting in a chair in the hall, waiting for a colleague… and she’s on her cellphone, and says, just as I walk by, “…well I gotta take care of this thing, and then I gotta figure out what the hell to do with the rest of my life.”

    I don’t know why that amused me. She said it very matter-of-factly, not like there was a crisis… just more shit to deal with. “The rest of my life.” She’s probably 22. Funny.

  • Randall

    rneiderman:

    No one to blame buy myself. :-) No one twists my arm, forcing me to be here. Sometimes it’s just fun, sometimes I’m just bored, sometimes it’s ego. ha ha.

  • bucslim

    jfrater – those are exactly the things that make me titter and snort. No respect, juvenile rants, unintelligent banter, witty comebacks, brazen vulgarity, volcanic flames and bitter, bitter bile are the recipe for good reading here at the List Universe.

    (some of the previous words were taken from Roget’s Thesaurus) And Jfrater – have you ever tittered and snorted?

  • bucslim

    Happy birthday to you, you live in a zoo, you look like a monkey, and you smell like one too.

    Jeez I’m a dork.

  • Randall

    bhoges:

    Read through some of my posts from other threads as well. If you honestly see a parallel between the way I conduct myself in an argument and the way he does, then I don’t know what to tell you. Whatever. I wouldn’t agree with you.

    I didn’t say anything against spouting a few insults now and then–I’ve said many times, I use that shit for effect, and 9 times out of 10 it’s meant humorously anyway, and I feel I usually make that clear. And I don’t even mind arguing about this kind of thing–spiritual belief–but I outlined clearly what I think the difference is. If you can’t see it and don’t get it, I don’t view that as my fault.

    You’re entitled to view me negatively, if you wish, and criticize what I said. Free country. I don’t really care. I’ve made my point and I’m done with it.

  • bucslim: I can honestly say that I do not remember ever tittering and snorting :)

    Randall: Happy Birthday!

  • SlickWilly

    I’ve tittered *and* snorted, but never at the same time. That would be a vulgar display of power.

  • Pantera

    Nice to see some other religion’s massacres getting noticed here instead of just christianity. Ussualy, no one ever cares about the Islamic jihad or the bhuddist ssacrifices

    But I would challenge the Indian thuggee. They were in it for the money, evidenced by the fact that they stole everything they could move of their victims.

  • ali hayat

    The way muslims are represented in the west BY the western media is deplorable. there are so many merits of islam & to know them, you first have to intensively search about the truth because only after reading and knowing this religion, you will understand what it actually means to be a muslim. You all may have liberal ideas, you all may be confused as to why some muslims commit such acts of cruelty. Know why ? Because of ISRAELI aggression in PALESTINE, RUSSIAN aggression in SERBIA,CHECHNYA & BOSNIA AND HERZAGOVINA, INDIAN aggression in KASHMIR. Where is the western media’s coverage of all these ? well, they don’t show this because they are GUILTY, guilty of first inciting hatred among muslims to which our religion islam has told us to answer. according to islam, never INCITE hatred, but if you are incited, SHOW ‘EM. Follow them (the aggressors) to the 4 corners (not literlally) of earth, till they are sorry for what they have done.

  • ali hayat: You still haven’t answered my question – let me repeat it: “Can you name 5 Islamic people who did great acts of love or kindness toward non-Muslims? Forget about the bad guys – we all know who they are, but if Islam really is a religion of peace, can you give me some examples?”

    And incidentally, how am I being biased when I include TRUTHFUL accounts of islamic atrocities just because I haven’t listed every atrocity committed by non-Muslims? I understand that the aggression by Israel is wrong – that doesn’t mean that muslim atrocities are okay.

    I also think it is a fundamental flaw (and maybe even evil) for a religion to say that if someone hurts you, attack them until the end. How does that help anyone? It does’t – but it does explain why Islam is almost only ever seen by non-Islamic states as a religion of hatred and violence.

    Anyway – name the five people please :)

  • Mom424

    Randall; Happy Birthday! Mine was last thursday and I had the day of melancholy too. It passed, I’m still on the right side of the grass, the birds are singing, and it will soon be cottage season.

    Bucslim; I titter and snort, snot actually flies sometimes!

    666; Naive I have been called before, a question for you though. How often do you think it is by choice? You do not know my life experience. You will have to trust me on this, but it would be easier for me to be a bitter, cynical, and to expect the worst of my fellow man. Instead I actively seek that one redeeming characteristic. Trust me, its a damn tough job sometimes.

  • bucslim

    I’ve noticed he/she/it hasn’t replied recently, maybe he buggered off.

  • Randall

    Thanks for the birthday wishes everyone.

    And Mom: Yes, I’m so grateful that I was born in the Spring, at least. I remember when I was a little kid that it was like a seasonal marking-point, because I could go back out in the sun and under a blue sky to use my Peanuts swingset. :-) Green grass, dandelions, tulips, lilacs, birds coming back…

    I strolled into my backyard the day before yesterday, to take stock of things there and down at the beach (I live on a lake). What a mess. Sticks everywhere, goose shit everywhere (they winter right off and onshore here, thousands of ’em). Mud, debris that’s floated up on the beach (cans, a plastic bottle here and there, tons of driftwood)… most beautiful sight I’ve seen in… well, since October.

  • SlickWilly

    Maybe Israel, Russia, and India just think you guys are assholes. :)

    I kid.

  • Mom424

    Randall; I love the spring beach clean-up. The treasures you find; lures, crayfish carcasses, fish bones, seagull shit (geese don’t over-winter where I live), lighters, watches, assorted bottles, and rocks, doesn’t matter how many you pitch they come back, and enough driftwood to last a couple weeks.

  • Randall

    Mom:

    I usually don’t start finding fish lures until summer.. don’t know why, they just don’t show up from the previous year, in the Spring, for some reason. The dead fish and fish bones only drift in starting in June.. and the seagull shit is only a problem on the dock, and that only seems to build up over the course of Summer.

    The crayfish carcasses though… yeah. I also found out this past weekend that they’re not only attributable to the gulls, at least where I live. Apparently barred owls have a huge fondness for crayfish. Sometimes they eat so many that their plumage, on their chests, turns a dull orange, like a flamingo.

  • ali hayat

    You want 5 examples of love and kindness by muslims towards non- muslims ? well then :-

    1- Saladin(Salah-ud-din al Ayyubi). first one. I guess you would be truthful enough to remember the christian crusaders atrocities on muslims when they captured Jerusalem. They burnt down their houses, converted the mosque to a church & more over, the ‘ever humane’ christians slaughtered all muslims who had gathered in the mousque of al aqsa as their last refugee. while when saladin captured it back, he did none of these. in fact, he allowed christians to stay in jerusalem and showing great example of religious tolerance, allowed them to continue practising christianity.

    2- Khalid bin al Walid.- when he captured half of christian syria, there were no killings, slaughtering or massacres of christians. The christian subjects were protected from any further conquests & in return, they had to pay a meagre amount of money.

    3- furthermore, our holy prophet (p.b.u.h) showed a great example of forgiving and kindness when he forgave all makkans, the people who tuned him out and those who commited great sins or inflicted huge cruelities, were collectively forgiven. this was the person every muslim, radical or fundamentalist, follows & cherishes.

    These are just 3 examples and there are many more such as the ones i am pasying. If you really are against hardcore fundamentalists, then i am too. but to judge a religion of 1.7 billion people from some retarted, misguided teenagers is just plain stupidity. Some of these have wrecked havoc in our own country, muslim, which is, & our people vehemantly oppose their incresing terrrorist ideas. islam never teaches this & it never meant to. jus one wrong interpretation doesn’t mean we are attacked as one single minded religion.
    AND AGAIN I REPEAT. The west incites muslims first( for example the cartoon of our prophet & movie on our holy book )
    THEN, the radicals and aggressive minded muslims reply, by what ever way possible. BTW, can you name 5 christians or jews who’s acts of kindness towards muslims are famous or well known ??

  • stevenh

    ali hayat:
    You can fairly discuss “ISRAELI aggression in PALESTINE” only if you also note:

    1) that the Israeli army (IDF) sent over 13 tons of aid to the Moslems in Bosnia in 1992. (the Arab states send 0 tons).

    2) IDF set up a field hospital (100 beds) with a staff of 60 medical professionals for treating the Moslem refugees of the Kosovo War of 1999.

    3) Yad Sarah’s assistance to Senegal and Mauritania (two ‘Moslem’ countries) http://www.yadsarah.org/index.asp?id=82

    Please document how many field hospitals the Islamic countries set up in Israel after a terrorist attack in Tel Aviv?

  • stevenh

    Randall:
    Sound beautiful … What part of the world is this?

    – and no, I’m not trying to track you down ;)

  • DiscHuker

    randall and mom: happy belated birthday to the two of you. what is it like to be in your mid 20’s? :)

    didn’t you read the southern foods list? crayfish is not an acceptable use of the word…CRAWFISH is the critter’s proper name.(at least in southern louisiana)

  • ali hayat

    yes, stevenh, & the thousands PALESTINIANS KILLED were compensated by these hospitals & some tons of aid ? WOW

  • About 325. Wiseguy//
    Im agree with you and being a muslim I have no objection that muslim fanatics are in this list.

    But (333.) jfrater,
    I dont think you are acting fair while telling crusades are just for land but then showing Islamic State as an example in your list.

    It’s no different than any empire did at that time. Expanding the territory, conquering the world, gaining more tax income…

    Anyway, that’s my opinion and this is your web site :)

  • Lewis_RATM

    Woah, lotta shit gone down since I left yesterday, and Bob still hasn’t answered me…

  • Out of Topic:
    When the Turks 1st met muslims, the Islamic State was runing by Emeviler* house. Emeviler thinks arabs are nobel and they have right to look down other races. So Turks and muslims fight quiete a while. Later Abbasiler house took power. Under their rule, non-arabs treated with respect and masses of Turks converted to Islam.
    —-I just wanna share, thx for bearing with me—-

  • Randall

    stevenh:

    Upstate New York. Horrible in the Winter. Very pretty in the Summer.

    My quiet village is being invaded by New York City folk, though… who think it “quaint.”

  • Tonny SS

    Again… No.8 isn’t Buddhist practice. It’s more of a Hinduism mixed with local belief, and it’s more of a local belief in South East Asia. Buddhist monks do NOT preside over the practice, but rather the Brahmin.

    In many places, Buddhism and Hinduism get mixed up.

  • Ali dont forget the Conquerer Mehmet, who saved jews from Spanish.

  • Randall

    DiscHuker:

    Crayfish, crawfish, crawdaddies and MUDBUGS.

    I always liked the last one.

    Crayfish is what we grew up calling them in New Yawk. I’ve heard crawfish around these parts, but not usually. When I hear crawdaddy I think of that Cajun guy who used to have a cooking show on PBS.

  • Egg

    Cool stuff. I always thought the idea of jihad came about from Muslim extremists who waged war on the (then) oppressive Hindu religion. I think the Buddhist Burma one got me most.

  • stevenh

    re: 379. ali hayat:

    As Jamie as said. We all know the bad stuff. Israeli, Arab, Russian, Japanese, etc.

    Please do not answer my question with a documentation of what bad the Israeli people did to the Islamic people, answer please what good thing the Islamic people did for the Israeli people.

    It is not a question of ‘compensation’ or any sort of equivalence – please just a few examples. I would love to believe that there are current official, and acted-upon policies in the Islamic world that are designed to benefit Christian populations. (I suppose that to benefit Jewish populations would be too much to ask).

    Thank you.

  • Lewis_RATM

    Happy Birthday Randall, have a good one!

  • stevenh

    Randall:

    LOL – I may be tracking you down after all…

    I am looking to sell a house down near NYC. Looking to get a place up state. About as north as Columbia County…
    Sometime this summer perhaps.

  • Jaz013

    The Aztec sacrifices had also a secondary function (beyond religion): keep at range all the other tribes in the region. Sadly, this worked against them when the European barbarians get to México.

    Also, all those stories about cannibalism and bizarre practices are now put in judgment, since many others where prove false, inventions from the Spanish to make more “acceptable” the destruction of their great civilization.

  • ali hayat: I want 5 people who were not conquerors or warriors – all three of the men you named were. So start over :) As for Catholics who treated them with love and respect:

    1. Saint Francis: http://www.franciscanfriarstor.com/stfrancis/stf_st_francis_and_the_muslims.htm

    2. John Paul II – he even kissed the Quran

    3. John XXIII – invited the Shah of Iran to the Vatican and blessed him. He said “If I were born a Muslim, I believe that I would have always stayed a good Muslim, faithful to my religion.”

    There are 3 – two of which were leaders of the Church – they lead by their example. But those people aside, the Catholic Church and its religious texts do not support war or killing for religious reasons – Islam does. For that reason you don’t see Catholics bombing Islamic countries when they insult the Pope or the Church.

  • Lita

    @666

    Can you provide evidence that God does not exist?
    I’m really curious.

    And to reference your statement that everything that exists can be seen or felt by our senses. Does that mean that atoms did not exist until scientists developed the means to prove their existence?

  • stevenh

    re 385:Ozhan

    Mehmet the Conqueror died in 1481.
    I hope that this is not the most current example.

    Oh, and I’m not sure it was the Spanish as Mehmet was the Ruler of the Ottoman.

  • SlickWilly

    No one is saying that all muslims are bad; generalizations are the crutch of the weak-minded. But if you look at the social policies of the muslim theocracies in the middle east, it doesn’t lend a whole lot of credit to the idea of Islam being a peaceful religion. These are countries where free speech and public expression is virtually non-existent, where women are oppressed to a horrific degree, nearly regulating them to the role of indentured servants and baby factories, where even the slightest moral transgression can, depending on the whim of the *people*, result in stoning to death or worse. These are the countries whose leaders – their *world* leaders – have gone on record saying that their foreign policy consists of razing Israel to the ground and executing/exiling her citizenry. These are the countries that, despite being among the wealthiest nations in the world, often fail to provide adequate housing, healthcare, food and sanitation facilities for their populous.

    This is not a prejudiced rant. These are the facts about life in certain parts of the middle east ruled by hardline Islamic fundamentalists. It would be an extremely foolish thing to say that Islam as a religion is evil and that it’s followers are all evil by extension. However, a religion cannot simultaneously preach love and respect while teachings its adherents that any non-Muslim is subject to execution for the simple fact that they are not Muslim. *That* is the problem that most people have with Islam.

  • SlickWilly

    Lita: Quit it. We just managed to get that guy out of our hair; no sense inviting him back in.

  • Lewis_RATM

    No one can prove either way the existence or lack thereof of God, there’s just probability.

  • Lewis_RATM

    That’s for Lita btw.

  • Lita

    @SlickWilly

    Sorry, but I doubt he would have answered anyway. Was just curious ;)

  • Lewis_RATM

    Is Thuggee where thug comes from?

  • SlickWilly

    Lita: It’s okay. :) It’s just, when you have a crazed animal running loose in the house, tearing shit up and making life hell for everyone, and it finally gets bored and leaves, I’m of the opinion that the last thing you want to do is put food on the floor and invite the damn thing back in.

  • SlickWilly

    Lewis_RATM: I was wondering the same thing myself.

  • Randall

    I see no point in all this back and forth about who did what for whom (pace the grammar list over at https://listverse.com/literature/top-10-errors-in-english-that-arent-errors/). (or Michael Palin: “Let’s not bicker about WHO killed WHO”).

    Al Hayet’s examples of good deeds done by Muslims are all from the Middle Ages, and mostly examples of despots being kind–which is a good thing, but nevertheless, we’re supposed to act grateful, I suppose, because despots don’t wreak havoc. Doesn’t make sense to me somehow.

    I have a great respect for the accomplishments of Islamic civilization. Sadly, that civilization saw its best days go by some centuries ago, and today is in an ungodly mess. Why? I’m sure there’s many separate causes. But muslims, it seems–at least those from the Near East and Middle East–have some bizarre need to play the victim and blame all their troubles on the West. The West can shoulder some blame. But only so much. The West is not responsible for what happened in Beirut doing my entire lifetime. I was born in 1965 and grew up hearing that name, “Beirut,” ALWAYS associated with conflict and horror. I didn’t learn until high school that there had been a Beirut, once, that was peaceful and lovely, one of the most beautiful and richest cities on the Mediterranean. But look what religious rancor and hatred did to it. And then for whatever reason, before I was born and during my childhood, most Arab nations decided (as did India for a time) that either the Soviet Union, socialism and despotism (or all three at once) were the waves of the future–so they aligned themselves thusly. Democracy wasn’t even attempted. Perhaps because, yes, that corner of the world has never known anything but servitude and its people have never known anything except being at the mercy of despots. You’ll forgive us Westerners, Al Hayet and others, for having this view of things–but we see truth in it, and we’ve had it in our minds ever since the ancient Greeks defeated the Persians and saved our civilization and our tradition of individual freedom some 2500 years ago.

    I’m not fond of some of the posturing and unproductive behavior occasionally practiced by Israel… but it seems to me that Israel is just an excuse. The Palestinian cause merely an excuse (except to Palestinians). Blundering American foreign policy an excuse.

    All of these are excuses for those in the Islamic world who either wish to maintain a situation at home that looks ever-backward, and never progresses–or for those who haven’t got the courage to solve their own problems, stand up and reclaim the balance and good things in their culture. Often, religion is also an excuse.

    The violence, however, is repugnant. We are all past the time, in the history of our race, for religion to be playing such a central role in determining how we interact with one another. It’s one of the things that drives civilization down.

  • Randall

    Lewis:

    “Is Thuggee where thug comes from?”

    It is indeed.

  • Randall

    Which is not to say I’m against asking for examples of what good things Muslims have done for non-Muslims. No doubt there are examples, particularly of “the little people” helping other “little people.” I seem to recall not too long ago some act of kindness done by a Muslim, in saving the life of a New Yorker… but it IS a good point to ask where the *historical* examples are.

    I also dislike the fact that America now bears the brunt of Arabic anger for decades of *European* colonization in the Near and Middle East. It is ALWAYS forgotten or ignored that America was stumping for a RELEASE of the Arab nations (as well as India) from the control of the Colonial powers well before WWII. We were pestering the British and the French about this for years… and have received not ounce of credit for it.

  • stevenh

    It is possible that a part of the issue with the Arab world is that there are not many non-religious books.

    The Arab Human Development Report of 2002 (written by Arab social scientists) contains the following:

    The figures for translated books are also discouraging. The Arab world translates about 330 books annually, one fifth of the number that Greece translates. The cumulative total of translated books since the Caliph Maa’moun’s [sic] time (the ninth century) is about 100,000, almost the average that Spain translates in one year. (AHDR 2002, p. 78)

    Since many here do not trust un-cited tidbits:
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2501/is_2_26/ai_n8706604

  • Randall

    stevenh:

    Good point, about the lack of translations.

    Columbia County, I’m afraid, is nowhere near me. I’ve been there, driven through it on the way to Boston and Maine… seems typical of the Hudson region. If you’re a Manhattanite, and move there, prepare for culture shock. But no doubt I’m telling you the obvious.

    Just don’t be one of these down-staters who moves in, and then suddenly decides that his or her neighbor’s activities are annoying–neighbors who have lived there for generations. This seems to be the new thing these days. Some farmer has a huge operation, with tractors and trucks making noise all hours of the day and night, and suddenly some city person moves next door and promptly sues the poor bastard for keeping the precious city snowflake up at night.

    grumble grumble.

  • Sue

    i think it’s kind of funny that christians were killed in persecution, then turned around and started doing the same thing as soon as they were left alone.
    or even better- the puritans left europe because of religious persectution, and then procede to do the same thing, but even worse.

    ah. nothing says LOVE like religion.

  • SlickWilly

    Sue: As far as I can remember, the Puritans turned out to be pretty tolerant of other religions. That’s why so many other persecuted minority groups emmigrated from across the pond.

  • SlickWilly

    Randall: We those people down here too. They’re called snowbirds. People need to remember that part of where they live is the neighbors surrounding them. They should judge their neighbors more carefully before purchasing a house. The other guy has as much right to be there as you, and he was there first.

  • stevenh

    Randall:

    I know exactly what you are talking about. I grew up in horse country (on Long Island). When people moved into the sub-divided land nearby we heard complaints about the ‘horse smell’ and the sound of their shoes on the streets when we road on a Sunday morning.

    WTF did they move in for, anyway.

    grumble, grumble is right.

  • JLo

    “AND AGAIN I REPEAT. The west incites muslims first( for example the cartoon of our prophet & movie on our holy book )”

    Ali,
    I could be opening up a can of worms here, but Ali, how often does it occur that Christians (within the last 50 years) resort to violence BECAUSE the name of the Lord or the Holy Bible has been desecrated? And if when or if this did this happen, I pray and ask for your forgiveness. I also hope we never resort to saying they incited us to do it.

    I believe in respecting all religions and belief systems. As a Christian, I believe Jesus calls me to love my neighbor, and essentially, everyone is my neighbor, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. Even if people have made blasphemous movies, books, and works of art about God and the Holy Bible. And regardless of how I am incited by people who try to offend my faith or me, this does not mean I have any – any – recourse for responding with anger or vitriol, and to even suggest that there is a reason for this is to go against what my faith really stands for.

    So, I am deeply sorry for the transgessions that other Christians have committed in the past and present. I am not sure where this is, but I know there are some places in sub-saharan Africa where muslims and Christians have lived side-by-side, working together, etc. for hundreds and hundreds of years, but only recently, some of the fringe, radical elements of islam has permeated the area and caused strife and unrest. There must be some core beliefs in the islamic faith that are focused on peace and community, or else these African communities could not even have existed. I am sure there are things that potentially incited muslim people at that time.

    And finally, Ali, if I know of Christians negatively representing my faith it is important to me set myself apart from them, confront them or publically condemn them. Why does this not happen more within the muslim community? Or does it and we are not hearing about it?

  • Csimmons

    slickwilly:Yes, but then again you could probably drive him out of his house(acting as if you’re in the KKK is probably the easiest way :) )

  • Mom424

    We have the same problem in cottage country. People move up from the big smoke (Toronto) and bring their big-city attitude with them. All of the sudden the cops are being called because the dogs aren’t on a leash, or the smell of pig shit on the fields is ruining their “quality of life”. But of course the jet skis that ruin the shore line both with their wake and their noise is perfectly ok.

  • SlickWilly

    csimmons: Perhaps, but I have no wish to drive someone out of their own house or impersonate the KKK. Unless its to deliver some well-deserved beatdowns to a bunch of racist skinhead fucks, and only then I’d have to go in packing heat, Keanu-Matrix style.

  • Csimmons

    slick:Ah yes, keanu style would be the best way, or go in with a bullwhip like indiana jones, either way is good.

  • Randall

    Slick, stevenh, Mom:

    You all share our pain, I see.

    Now the manure smell from the dairy farms… I could do without that. Sometimes it runs down the hills, into the streams… and there’s one right alongside my house… that runs into the lake… and I swear in the summer you can smell it… and we swim there. Pisses me off.

    Word is that some farmers aren’t just using cow manure… they’re now using sludge taken out of septic tanks. In other words, human excrement. Nice. I won’t be eating that corn, thank you.

  • Csimmons

    slick,stevenh,mom, and who ever has the same problem:
    I live in a quiet town, and I share your pain. You see, my town is about 20 miles south of the biggest city in the state, so when city folk want a “quiet” place to live, they end up ruining our bliss. They will complain of the smell, the farms, how come there is no fancy food, and all that crap. Sometimes I wanna take a shotgun to their cars until the metal is swiss cheese, then they will complain about insurance and not about my town.

    Randall: I ain’t eating anything they grow.

  • SlickWilly

    Randall/Csimmons: I believe they use human excrement all the time in the rice paddies over in Asia. They used to, anyway, back in feudal Japan, but it makes sense. What to do with all that shit? Apparently rice and similar grain-type plants thrive on the nitrogen factor in human waste. I’ll eat food grown in human shit. So long as its properly washed and cooked. I mean, we eat vegetables that grow in cow/horse/chicken shit all time. Mushrooms grow right on top of the shit, and I happen to love mushrooms! Why does it being human make it any more gross?

  • Csimmons

    slick:I don’t know why, it just does, but it probably doesn’t matter.

  • SlickWilly

    I for one think that if more farms used free human waste rather than paying out the ass for exotic animal-based fertilizers, it might cut down signficantly on their overhead and could potentially pass the savings onto the distributors and consumers, particularly with gas and food prices already as high as they are and getting higher everyday. Then again, I’m no expert on farm economics and whether or not they even pay for the fertilizers they are using now.

  • Csimmons

    slick:I think they use the fertilizers made by their cows, that is assuming of course that the farmers have cows, and I’m sure all of them don’t. So maybe using human excrement is the best choice.

  • Csimmons

    Wait wait wait, How were we led to cow shit and human shit again? Let’s talk about atrocities commited in the name of religion, not shit.

  • SlickWilly

    Well, strictly speaking, organized religion is the single largest producer of horseshit in history. :D

    Ha…man, I crack me up.

  • Mom424

    A few of the farms around here use some sort of liquid pig/human shit hybrid. They actually have a tanker truck with a sprinkler on the top. Nothing more vile that aerosolized human excrement. The stink actually sticks to you. I have no idea how the guy can run the truck. It smells 100 times worse than the tannery down the way. And the tannery can bring tears to your eyes.

  • Angelina

    Slick: that and politics as well. . .

  • Lizim

    Saying that the west incites Muslim violence is like saying, “I beat my wife because she made me angry”.

    You may have every right to be angry, but not to hurt people because of it.

  • Lewis_RATM: supporting what Randall said, yes, the thuggee are the source of our modern English term “thug”.

  • dribble

    About those lists about Islamic people who helped Christians vs. Christian people who’ve helped Islam…

    They are extremely misleading, because Christianity, Catholicism in particular, has a single person in head of the religion. Former (and current) Popes are obviously going to be noted for their interactions with other religions.

    Islam, on the other hand, does not have a single man in charge of their affairs, and one leader does not speak for them (peacefully or otherwise).

    ‘Ayatollahss’ , for Shi’a muslims, ARE a form of clerical leader; however, they have nowhere near the religious or spiritual guiding power that popes have, and in fact do not have any authority in many muslims lives.

    Further, as others have said, no one cares about what good is done for the community by Islam, because it doesn’t make a good story. Rape, stoning, violence–that sells. ‘I gave money to charity or helped a Christian’–does not.

    Besides Popes, you only have one notable example of a Christian, and he, like the Muslims on Ali’s list, is from the 15th century.

    Not saying that Christianity should be doing more, simply that it is impossible to compare the two religions through a “list of good Muslims” vs “a list of good Christians”

  • byrneman

    why is there only 8?

  • Csimmons

    slick: ah yes, politics, religiom, and scientology.

  • DiscHuker

    see, this is more like the old times. listening to randall, mom, slick, csimmons and jayfray speak coherently and respectfully about a fun topic.

  • byrneman: Because a list with more than eight would be TOO depressing?

  • jasontimmer

    Lewis- #400- yes it is.

  • jasontimmer

    Okay, I’m awake again- I wanted to restate my question as to why Buddhists (such as myself) don’t get attacked by atheists like Christians do?

  • Ozhan

    To (394.) stevenh:
    When Spanish lady began to get rid of non-christian population by any means. Around 300k jews lost their home, only Ottoman Empire opened its lands to them for citizenship. (oh by the way… I looked up; it was son of Mehmet, the 2. Beyazid. I remembered wrong.)

    And why are you talking with sarcasm?

  • Lizim

    Jason: I think it’s because “truth” has a more acceptable definition to atheists than “God”. You search for truth and enlightenment. Christians do too. They just call it God. People are less threatened by “truth”. I think that some people don’t want to believe there is a God because that would mean that there was something in control other than themselves.

    As for me, I wish I had the answer to it all. I have NO idea!

  • Ozhan

    To 392. (jfrater):

    Oh, so by act of peace you meant just being nice. I thought great deeds to help other religion folks. Allright then, Im giving from my local imam to head of Religion Affairs as examples. My local imam isnt famous but Religion Affairs dude made many nice meetings with some high ranked Christians.

  • jasontimmer

    Lizim- I see where you’re coming from. Although I would argue that Truth has no definition (notice the capital “T”), most people are comfortable with their own version of truth.

    And also, as a Zen student, I can tell you that having no idea is a much better place than being deluded by thinking you know something of Truth.

  • Lizim

    Sorry about the capital T thing. Just habit from a youth spent in Catholic school.

    I am at a crossroads in my spiritual life. I want there to be a God. I want Him to be kind and merciful. I want there to be a heaven that I go to and am warm and fuzzy for all eternity.

    That said, you can’t always get what you want. Some days I think there is a God. Some days I feel like there isn’t.

    If He is up there I’m sure he’s pointing and laughing. Or very sad.

  • jasontimmer

    Lizim- I was pointing out my use of the capital “T” to distinguish conceptual truth from actual Truth. As far as the existence of God, I say, again as a Buddhist, that the arguments for God and against, are equally valid, and so attaching yourself to either view only sees part of the whole picture. Don’t worry about it anyway. It’s not the point. Either way, God is not “He” and God is not “up there”- don’t conceptualize God. It is far beyond any idea you may have or any word you can speak. In the view that God does exist, I’m sure It does not want you to sit around wondering, instead It wants you to do what you were put here for, to live your life and be yourself.

  • jasontimmer

    And in the view that It doesn’t exist, what more can you do than live your life and be yourself.

  • Schiesl

    No thirty Years war. one of the deadliest events in history in the name of religion mind you

  • Schiesl

    how about a nice baseball list…the season has started…this is too much, lol

  • jasontimmer

    Schiesl- jfrater chose one atrocity for each religion

  • Lizim

    I think the trouble started after I had kids.

    Before I was a parent I was certain there was no God. How could there be? Why would God let horrible things happen to his children. Then you have kids and you realize that you HAVE to let them learn things on their own. Making mistakes, surviving horrible things makes one whole.

    So now I am at the point where I just don’t know. I think I am getting comfortable with not knowing. It takes the pressure of being right off my shoulders.

  • jasontimmer

    Lizim- be comfortable with not knowing. Know that you will never Know. I am a parent too. My son has made no difference in my conviction that it doesn’t matter whether or not there is a God. If it was proven either way, would it make any difference in how you life you life? If it would, you should seriously re-examine your values. You don’t need to live with uncertainty. Just love your kids, live your life naturally. That’s all that is asked. God doesn’t judge you, YOU judge you.

  • Lizim

    I think the only thing that would change is that I’d be freaked out KNOWING that someone was watching me and my husband have sex!

  • jasontimmer

    Lizim- okay, now you’re getting goofy. It’s like the concept of karma- most people think of it as some kind of universal scoreboard tallying up all your wrongdoings, and when you’ve done enough wrong, the universe throws you a flat tire, or broken leg, or whatever. This is a feeble interpretation. (Sorry if I’m not making sense by now, I’m drunk- give me a break) It’s more like, YOU are the scoreboard, YOU know what you have and haven’t done, and so your suffering regarding any particular event is dependent solely upon you’re own capacity to suffer. Have sex with your husband. Enjoy it. God doesn’t care. It has bigger fish to fry.

  • Lizim

    I don’t believe in karma. I think that good things happen to good people only because good people let them happen. They are more apt to notice the good things and just roll with the bad things.

  • jasontimmer

    Lizim- you are adequately describing karma. Karma is not something to believe or not believe. It is simply a phenomenon observed in daily life. It is a word used to describe what you just said. I’d like to move away from the idea that karma is some kind of mystical, otherworldy happening, and instead simply a means to describe what you apparently already know, something that is easily seen.

  • jasontimmer

    Like I said before, the Universe isn’t watching you, God isn’t watching you- they both already know how it’s going to turn out; really, you watch yourself.

  • acronyx

    jihad = holy wars. lol, come on. result of the brainwash is all over the world.

  • jasontimmer

    acronyx- please elaborate on your post

  • Francesco

    The Church is errecting a statue od Gallileo in it’s Gardens.The belief that the world was not round was held by many scientists of the time and not only the Church.Also what happened back in The Church then happened not what because of what Christ said but in spite of it,many Great Catholic Saints such as St.Teresa and St.Frances totally objected to this practice and saw it as an abuse of power by bad Pope.

  • jasontimmer

    Francesco- check out cracked.com – you’ll find a list that goes on to explain that the “flat earth” idea was smashed by pythagoras in ancient Greece. By Columbus’s time, or even Galileo for that matter, nobody took the “flat earth” idea seriously.

  • Just a word of warning about cracked – they frequently publish lists that contain errors – they put them in to make things more interesting – but it is very deceptive and unless you really know the subject they are covering, you are likely to leave believing errors.

  • jasontimmer

    jfrater- point taken. When do you think was the time that people, in general, began to disregard the “flat earth” theory?

  • jasontimmer

    I should add that Francesco’s post raised my ire for America’s “Columbus Day”- (I’m in Iowa)- the guy was nothing more than a murderous madman. He discovered nothing.

  • SlickWilly

    jasontimmer: Atheists don’t pick on Buddists they way they pick on Christians because the atheistic backlash in this country and around the world is mainly against the modern Christian religion. Also, Buddism is an atheistic religion. It doesn’t worship a god or gods.

  • Randall

    jasontimmer:

    *Intelligent* and observant people haven’t believed the earth was flat at least since the Greeks (Pythagoras didn’t “smash” the belief, he was simply one of the early philosophers who recognized that the earth was round–there were others before and after him, and he didn’t do anything to prove it–mathematical proofs were his style, not experiments–that came with Eratosthenes, and others). All one had to do was note that ship masts slowly disappeared against the horizon, if you watched them sail away.

    But of course, folk belief took longer to get the message. But in general there’s really no “moment” when the majority of people suddenly realized that the earth was round. It just gradually became accepted knowledge (which than had to be re-learned all over again after the Dark Ages).

  • Dhoser

    St. Barholomew’s Day? Siege of Beziers? Sack of Jerusalem? Any one of any events in the Thirty Years’ War? No offense to the Salem Witch Trial victims, but they hardly seem to number high enough to place on this list, especially considering what you ommitted.

  • Art

    You forgot to list the more than 100 million people sacrificed to the secular religions of Communism and Fascism.

    These leftist religious movements came with their own version of the inquisition and torture was definitely allowed.

    These religions are still being promoted and practiced today. And human sacrifice, supposedly for the common good, is still their credo.

  • Cedestra

    Stevenh: (full and proper name!) Colombia county? That’s not far from where I live, which is a little hole (in the wall) in the (Berk)shires.

  • Dan

    and i always used to think buddhism was the peaceful religion :S

  • jasontimmer

    Dan- It is, at least for most practitioners. I imagine those in Burma are of some fringe sect. Buddha specifically stated “do not kill.” I’m not sure why these guys weren’t listening

  • Lizim

    OHH Don’t get me started on Columbus!

    My father in law went to Notre Dame. The whole family went for the ND Navy game a few years ago. (My husband is in the Navy, so it was a fun day) In the administration building’s main hall they have enormous portraits of Columbus’ various “achievements”. The artwork itself is beautiful, just a little historically inaccurate.

    SO of course I start shooting my mouth off. “Well were are the portraits of Columbus enslaving people to work on sugar plantations? Where is Columbus himself cutting off the hands of people who didn’t work fast enough? He admitted it in his own diary you know?” By the end I was so incensed that I was almost yelling. My husband was like “OK we believe you, please just chill out.”

  • jasontimmer

    haha thats a good story. Yeah, Columbus was an asshole. I don’t know why we still have a holiday for him. Why not Hitler day while we’re at it?

  • Lizim

    And I love how Italian claim it like it’s their own version of St. Patrick’s day.

    UH….you guys kicked him out of your country.

  • Mike

    I’m confused. I thought Islam was the “religion of peace.” At least, that’s what George W. Bush keeps telling us…

  • jasontimmer

    Slickwilly- we prefer to call ourselves “non-theistic” rather than “atheistic” since we really don’t address the question of God at all. Buddha never said one way or the other whether he believed in God.

  • jasontimmer

    Mike- I have a hard time understanding why any intelligent person would listen to a word that comes out of that guy’s mouth.

  • Lizim

    Mike: I think it’s a sign of good mental health to be confused by GWB.

  • jasontimmer

    though I’m not saying I think Islam isn’t a peaceful religion. I don’t know enough about it to make a call either way. I’d have to read the Koran and maybe visit the middle East first!

  • Peter

    I dont know if anyone mentioned this… but the christian persecution by nero never happened… in one of the best recorded histories (the roman empire), they never mention christian persecution. Sure SOME died, but you know, kill enough people, and you’re bound to get a christian in there somewhere. Christian persecution was made up to make it sound like early christians were martyrs for their cause… and of course, who doesn’t sympathize with martyrs? It is a complete farce, meant to put a smily face on the christian faith. In fact, romans, until constantine converted the roman empire to christianity, were very open to the idea of everyone practicing their own spirituality, the way it ought to be today. spirituality should work for the individual, not for the religious institutions that have to this day bastardized it.

  • KRH

    All very dramatic

  • Me, Myself and I

    point 13 made by “L”,
    During the holocaust, the Nazis, in the name of “Science” stripped many Jewish prisoners and left them in cold places to observe the effects of the cold, wind, rian, chill factor of the wind, ect… on the human body.
    They were killed in the name of Science!

  • jrjb

    #1 is one of the reasons we can’t win in IRAQ short of nuking them. Then WWWIII breaks out.

    Slaughter of indians in the name of conversion is worth a mention.

  • daniela

    It would also make sense to include Persia’s persecution of Babis and Baha’is in from the 19th century until this day. Tens of thousands died in the 19th century, and today, Baha’i students in Iran are denied higher education, and Baha’is are still getting imprisoned and executed.

  • DiscHuker

    peter: do you realize that you are contradicting most of scholarly thought on that topic? what is your source for this hypothesis? or is it just convenient for your own biases?

  • Denzell

    Those people are insane. It seems that they are forgetting that religion was made to develop peace and harmony between people. But, unfortunately, it all came the other way around. How sad…

  • halle

    Skimming through many of these comments, i notice that a lot people wonder why muslims dont speak up against the fundamentalists and extremists who commit the atrocities. I cant speak for all muslims, but what i can say is that many a times trying to explain these crimes to non-muslims leads to arguments, and them hurling statistics of people who died at the hands of muslims.
    Im a muslim from somalia and i grew up in canada. I practise my faith peacefully and lead a very normal life, i go to university, hang out with friends and bitch about exams.I dont think its fair that people assume that because i am a muslim, i should be condemning these terrorists on a large scale. I don’t agree with the killings, and I’ll say this every opportunity i get, but condemning them isnt something i HAVE to do loudly. Many muslims lead western lives, have 9-5’s and kids to take of when they get home. Politics is for politicians, we as a general public should express our opinions and such, but I am not a politician so dont expect me to defend a millions of muslims.

    I dont know if anything i wrote makes sense, but the point im trying to make is this. LET ME LIVE MY LIFE WITHOUT BEING HARASSED. The september 11 bombers did what they did and now non-muslims expect every muslims justify their religon. I dont see why i have to explain myself to anyone.

    so yea, thats all i got to say.

    p.s. if ur gonna say something bout my writing skills, grammer or whatever, could care less, im a math student, words are not my friend

  • Ozhan

    I also want to add this:
    Maybe you already know, Islam doesnt have a figure like pope or church. Islam centered on person. No authority have right to get between person and Quran.

    So lets just say the most respected and wise American alim make a preach, it will have zero influence on me. Or if another imam here in Turkey make a preach, it would have zero influence on USA muslims.

  • Halle

    First of all your writing skills are probably better than mine. I liked you comment but one thing kind of stuck out. You said “I don’t think it’s fair that people assume that because I am a Muslim, I should be condemning these terrorists on a large scale”

    Speaking from a Christian point of view I do hope that you would condemn terrorists.
    I don’t know any Christian friends of mine that would not condemn the shortcomings of the religion from the crusades to the violence in Ireland several years ago.

    I think this is where we have tough time understand each other.
    Why not just say these people (terrorists) do not support my beliefs in any way

  • FJ

    There are around 1.2 billion muslims in the world. If they were truly all believers in ‘Jihad’ as a holy war we’d be screwed! Although this list suggests violent, outright physical atrocites i think the number 1 choice was perhaps more topical than any other in today’s climate?

    I think if that is the case, more attention should be drawn to the verbal assault Christian fundamentalism is waging on civil liberties in the west. It’s subtle, subverisve workings are far more dangerous than that of islamist extremism.

    It so so unfair to define ‘Jihad’ as a holy war. This useage serves extremists and you are only promoting the negative side of this religion in doing so. Perhaps it is the nature, of a brief top ten list, but is not comprehesive enough and misleading.

  • SlickWilly

    FJ: To be fair, the Qur’an does explicitly state that non-Muslims are heathens and must be expunged from the land. I try to see the redeeming qualities of Islam, but for me and for most non-Muslims, it’s hard to get past the whole, “If you don’t believe in Allah and Mohammed, you must die!” thing. That and the whole female degradation and oppression thing. Perhaps these are only the views of twisted Islamic fundies…if I’m wrong, please point out to me where in the Qur’an it speaks for feminine equality and peacefulness towards non-Muslims.

  • Csimmons

    slick: You find that and I’d pay you a million dollars.

  • halle

    Quran speaking bout feminine equality and peacefullness towards non-muslims (all of these are verses from the quran):

    Quran 3:195 tells us :

    “Their Lord responded to them: “I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER………”

    “God commands justice, the doing of the good, and liberality to kith and kin. He
    forbids all shameful deeds, injustice and rebellion. Thus does he instruct you, that you may receive admonition.” 16:90

    “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you
    into nations and tribes, that he may know and cooperate with one another.” 49:13

    “Verily for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves before God, and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remmber God unceasingly: for all of them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.” (33:35)

    It is recommended to treat peaceful unbelievers with kindness consideration and beneficence(12).

    “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace” (The Quran 8:61)

    here is something i wanted to add:

    “aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe God and know that God is with the righteous” [2:194].

    The key word here being EQUITABLE

    At the end of the day it’s all relative, Im a muslim female and i dont feel oppressed, I make my own decisions and my parents are respectful and supportive of my decisions. Not all muslim households are like that, but many are. I find it very odd that people feel compelled to convince me that I am oppressed when i say I’m not. Wierd

  • Ozhan

    SlickWilly, you’ve just been served!

  • SlickWilly

    Ozhan: Cute. Did you see the movie? It might appeal to someone of your intellect. Shut your trap.

    halle: Interesting verses. However, only the first verse you provided specifically states that men and women are considered equal, and only in the eyes of Allah. It could just be the perversions of the Qur’an by heathenistic heads of state in middle eastern theocracies, but in the common law, women are still considered subservient to men, indeed even below them. According to the Qur’an, the testimony of a man in court is worth the testimony of two women. When a person’s children stand to inherit that person’s wealth, the male children will receive a two-thirds greater share than the female children. Yes, in the eyes of God, men and women are considered equal, I’ll grant you that. Interesting, then, that so-called Islamic fundamentalists would use the Qur’an as an excuse to oppress women.

    Also, yes, the Qur’an preaches to not aggress unless aggressed upon, but when a majority of the Islamic world feels it has been aggressed upon for many years by non-Muslims, it is only natural that they want to bring death and destruction to Christian and Jewish nations. The very existence of these two groups in the holy land is considered by many to be aggressing on their rightful territory. It amounts to nothing, because many Islamic fundamentalists feel they have always been aggressed upon…they have grown in a culture of hatred towards certain nationalities and ethnic groups and actively search for reasons to vent their hatred.

    Also, just because you never felt oppressed doesn’t mean others haven’t. Alot of it has to do with where and how you were raised. I’ve talked with several fellow grad students in my program who were raised in the middle east. They didn’t realize how different things were over here, and found a sense of freedom they didn’t realize existed.

  • SlickWilly

    Halle: I just have to say, as well, you claim you don’t have to condemn Muslim terrorists. That is true. But, really the question is: *do* you condemn Muslim terrorists? I’ll rephrase it a different way: do you *agree* with some of the methods that terrorists use? I’m not just referencing Muslim terrorists here, there are terrorists of varying religious backgrounds, but at the heart of the matter, do you agree that using violence to instill fear in people is an acceptable way to get what you want? Lordy, I would hope not.

  • halle

    If you read my first statement, you’d see that i clearly stated that I do not agree with the methods the terrorists used, so i dont know why your asking me that again. What i meant about not having to condemn them is that I don’t have to go out my way to make sure EVERYBODY knows that i do indeed condemn these acts. It almost seems like non-muslims expect some sort of apology or declaration, but I didn’t do anything, you know what i mean?

    As for the other stuff you wrote, I have no argument. Like i said, I was raised in Canada so i don’t have this hatred you speak of. All i know is the way i practise and see Islam. I’m tolerant towards all people and I don’t go around cursing christians and jews. I agree with you that other women in Islam have been oppressed and thats very sad.
    My biggest problem with the majority of the posts is that the people who write them can’t seem to understand the fact that Islam s a religon practised by millions of people around the world, making generalized statements is not only ignorant, but hurtful. Civilized, open debates are awesome if people keep things civilized. I’m not saying that everything they say has to politically correct and that they have to tip-toe around touchy subjects, but when you do make a comment think about what your writing.

    I’ll be the first to tell you that I am not an expert in Islam. I dont know everything so i can’t really take it upon myself the argue the points you make. Hopefully someone who is well-eductaed on our religon can converse with you slickwilly.

  • halle, thanks, I understand where you are coming from now.
    I guess it just seems (from my point of view anyway) there should be more Muslim groups standing up and saying enough is enough.

  • SlickWilly

    halle: Perhaps I should have made it more clear that I was referring specifically to the turbulent Middle Eastern region of the world when I was speaking of hate. I apologize if you thought I was making some broad, sweeping generalization of the entire Islamic religion. I know as well as you how counter-productive such generalizations can be.

  • halle

    I see what your saying now. Thanks to everyone who replied to my comments! I am officially done with this thread lol, I have too much work to do and listverse is starting to really take up my time.

    Best of everything to all of you!!

  • FJ

    Slicky Willy: the bible too, like the Qu’ran, calls upon violence of various groups. It is down to the individual’s belief and how they act on a text.

  • SlickWilly

    FJ: You’re absolutely right.

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  • Qabandi

    First of all “jihad” is not “holy war” it means to struggle.

    secondly, the crusades were not up there because they were “non religous but political” please,

    the only way Muslims can kill is during war AKA retaliation or self-defence,
    the Jihad your reffering to is when people fight against opression NOT just terrorize people.

    The quran states that there should be NO opression in converting other people no force is to be used.

    AND you failed to mention anything about it.

  • Ano

    About the #8, I’ve never heard of that story, I didn’t find anything on the internet either, what is your source?

  • Joseph

    Organized religion is the single greatest scourge of humanity. More people have died in the name of religion than in every plague, (non-religious) war, famine, weather disaster, etc., put together. It seems to be a natural thing to need supernatural explanations for the unknown and once these “explanations” become organized the mayhem follows.

  • Micowoco

    Why is it that the crimes of the USTASHA are always overlooked? A simple google search will show you that this was a Catholic (Croatian) genocide against Serbs and others during WO II, endorsed by pope Pius XII. Be prepared for gruesome pictues of eye-gouging and dismemberment with axes and saws. Men, women and children, hacked to bits – by catholic stormtrooper-priests. It would end up pretty high in my list.

  • Ashar Ali

    islam is a peaceful religion, it preaches people to respect other people and beliefs. In islam the killing of any innocent people is forbidden and denouncing or making fun of other faiths is a sin. Islam also preaches to take everything moderately,inluding religion. the terrorists and taliban are extremists and therfore are regarded as sinful people, suicide is a huge sin in islam and to use suicide bombing to kill innocent people is probably the worst crime in islam. islam also instructs us to not harm women, children, old people or men who have surrenderred in war. Taking hostages is regarded as cowardly and a crime. So, these ‘muslim’ terrorists are actually ignorant people who are to stupid to question their orders and to findout more about islam. all these terrorists are misguided souls who commit crimes the name of islam and have no knowledge of the facts that islam condemns these acts so please think of islam differently from now on.it is a peaceful religion,not a terrorist training code

  • alexlwe

    Ashar Ali – well put.

  • Ashar Ali: why is it illegal to wear a cross or take a bible in to Saudi Arabia?

  • Ashar Ali

    in saudi arabia,there is a group called the religious police or muttawah. these bastards walk around in malls and order people to cover up thier faces. in islam, its ok to uncover ur face, but by muttawah law saudi women have to do it foriegners dont hav to. muttawwah also stage random checks in handbags and confiscate anything to do with a religion other than islam, this is wrong, in islam, you are allowd to show ur pride in ur faith. foriegn tv satelleits are also banned in saudi arabia, but no one cares, and tv sattelites can be seen plainly onhouse roofs. Muttawwahs hav banned women from driving,this is sexism and according to islam, all beings are equal. Muttawwahs also ban any public showing of religion. These people are stupid and unreasonable and always carry an armed policeman with them and frequently beat up bengali or indian men not wearing the ‘correct dress code’ these men are hardly the ideal muslim religious person and in any other country they wud hav been in jail for all thier crimes. however, dont think youll find muttawah everywhere in saudi, occaisonallyy only about 1 or 2 roam thebig malls. but in saudi arabia bibles can be bought in large department stores, these are not saudi influenced, but are exported from abroad.

  • Ashar Ali

    im sure this is all reasonably accurate because i myself am a foriegner living in saudi arabia

  • MK

    only 8! I can name over 800, mosltly by extremist christian and muslims

  • Vera Lynn

    No matter how you look at this (many controversial comments already posted) it’s scary. To kill in the name of G-d. Just wrong.

  • Mr Eff

    The Crusades were left out. I’d put that in the top 3 at least.

  • princess

    you forgot the holocaust and the crusades

  • I had not seen this list.

    princess, that may be to spotlight events people are less familiar with. everyone knows about the holocaust and the crusades.

  • Mike

    Does the Holocaust count? Cuz if it does, it should definately be on the list

  • Mike

    The Crusades probably deserve a spot too

  • rushfan

    Mike, maybe you should give comment #511 a cursory glance.

  • Mike

    oh yeah. I forgot to read the comments posted before mine

  • rushfan

    sorry if it feels like I’m stalking you. ;) I’m just bored and there’s nobody really commenting tonight.

  • ethan

    all of good lives lost because of christians. can’t you see after this that god isn’t real and christianity isn’t real. open ur eyes!

  • PoorMe

    There is a language problem here “Blood thirsty Kali”? I don’t believe it’s misgiving about her. She is as calm as ocean and as violent hurt lioness it depends she is portrait of women super power and love. I think what people do is wrong but we cannot blame gods and goddess. I think sati would have been more suitable for this category which was done to imitate sati’s act of self crimation by jumping into fire we try to imitate god and try to be god that is what is problem.

  • PoorMe

    “appease the bloodthirsty goddess Kali, a practice beginning in the 1500s” please change this line as it hurts millions of devotee’s feeling. By the way religious sacrifice doesn’t only involve blood you can use coconut, even in Nepal we use gourd, a type of vegetable, as item of sacrifice during worships. And 1500s this is too recent in fact hindus did business with Egyptians ande had well established grammar before 5000 years ago (proof Pandini; written grammar of sanscrit) so, do study well. And please change language if possible.

  • MergedLoki

    Ok, this was probably already replied to but i REALLY didn’t feel like reading 520 OTHER comments.
    Just a comment on the little head to head that L and bob seemed to have got into (early on in the posts, near top).
    Bob,
    atheism isn’t necessarily anti-religion. Hitler’s genocide, pol pot, chinese attrocities. they weren’t atheistically motivated. They were political/personal/twisted motivations in order to get power/retain power etc. (and actually the nazi regime took MANY symbols from the Norse mythology, so one could make the argument that it was religiously motivated. but i wont be the one to do that).
    Athetism isn’t anti-religion (to get to my main point). I’m an atheist, do i kick every christian I meet in the groin? No, do i shove jewish people into traffic, no. Do i plug fingers in my ears and sing at the top of my lungs should the word ‘god’ come up in coversation. Again. no.
    Just because I dont believe in a higher power, spiritual realm etc. doesn’t mean im AGAINST others believing in that.
    To each their own, long as people don’t get so friggin uptight about it they feel the need to harm others who dont follow their way exactly.

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  • Karl, hank’s son

    Loki, exactly.
    I like Theists, I loathe zealots. hmmm, terminally ambivalent? I’m Atheist until a god name is proven. There are thousands of god names that can’t be proven. Yeah names. The argument is god (anthropomorphic divinity, sentient being) vs creator. Spare me the big bang god or spaghetti monster cards. Big bang is one step above conjecture. Hypothesis. Not theory, not truth, not creator.
    The Hitler argument is a joke & really irrelevant. He wasn’t Atheist. Yeah, he may have lied about being neo pagan & Catholic. Maybe he didn’t really believe was doing gods’ work. Was the country Atheist? Did the SS form new churches? Did the SS & Adolf commit the atrocities alone? Did they build centers of worship & bind the people in hatred? I don’t recall a speech involving Hitler yelling “kill the god worshipers!” There are plenty of speeches about “kill the jews, savages, infidels, heretics, whores, witches, gays…”. You get the picture.
    Turn on the news you still the hate speech & the very real bodies. Look around on the web or admit you’re any of the above in certain circles & let me know how that goes.
    Btw, yet again religious leaders are discussing setting aside their differences & fighting to squash the Atheists. Hmmm, that should be interesting as we don’t have scarlet letters & most people don’t know I’m atheist until the conversation heads that direction. Then they wants to sell me their god or punch me in the face for Jesus….ironic.

    “My daddy is the best!. Love my dad as your dad & do as I do or burn in my dads’ hells! PS my god is love & he loves what he created which includes you.”

    Dumbest arguments ever.

  • guy

    thank you for putting the jihad thing at the top. to think that some people plan on starting a holy war by killing innocent people in the process makes me pretty sick. yeah

  • Muslim woman

    I appreciate that in your lists you try to incorporate as many religions/ cultures/ people as possible, and I understand the reason you put Islamic Jihad as #1, but it is not nearly as bad as the Spanish Inquisition, in which the majority of the population of S.America was murdered. Nothing has ever been as cruel.
    Further, Islamic Jihad in the form that we see today is very modern, probably only a few decades old. Islamic Jihad before was just fighting wars, it was just a name, just like WWII is a name. I’d also much appreciate it if you did not quote the Koran out of context, because as a Muslim, even I find it hard to quote, which could only imply that you are in no scholarly position to do so. Either way, it’s a insightful list and I love your website.

    Peace out.

  • Muslim woman

    Oh, one more thing: the number of actual jihadists in Islam is probably about 0.0001% of our population. In other words, they are RARE!!

    Plus, what about the Klu Klux Klan?

  • Oh, Canada

    Muslim woman
    “but it is not nearly as bad as the Spanish Inquisition, in which the majority of the population of S.America was murdered. Nothing has ever been as cruel.”

    I am pretty sure you just pulled that from out of your ass.

    Also, you said:
    “the number of actual jihadists in Islam is probably about 0.0001% of our population. In other words, they are RARE!!”

    First of all I can guarantee that number is much higher but still relativly low. However, it is not simply the number of actual Jihadists that matters, it is the number of “moderate” muslims that sympathize with them. My HighSchool is pretty much 1/4 Arab and I have many Arab friends and they are mostly alright but I can’t get over how anti-semetic and anti-American they are.

    Islamic society is conducive to Jihad and holy war because of its strictness and the fact that many wetern muslims fail to intergrate fully into society, instead clinging to their old practices.

    I am of course far from being an authority on the subject but I have read the Quaran -you know just for shits and giggles- and I can say that although it does preach peace it is also infested wit violent retoric.

    Fundementally I am against all religions but Islam is by far the least progressive and most dangerous.

  • JM

    Other thing about the aztecs was that they not only made sacrifices as mentioned, but also made special wars in the name of their gods when the sun “lacked too much blood” that was wouldn´t be covered through sacrifices and was fought between whole towns and those who died at the wars were considered “privileged”

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  • thuss

    in quran there are lots of verses like that but people use it in a wrong way.

    quran is not written in normal arabic it is written in a ancent aribic.

    but some muslims use it in a wrong way, by purpose

  • Enigmie

    Jfrater, a reliable and unbiased source that jihad killed millions would be much appreciated. Also, Muslims don’t force Islam upon others by the sword. Forcing one to convert does not make one a Muslim as in Islam, anything forced upon a person is not accepted. I think the confusion arises from the fact that during jihad, the Kufaar (non-Muslims) are given three options: accept Islam, pay jizya or fight. Here the accept Islam means that they should become Muslims by their own will so as to spread Islam or, if they want to remain xians, they should pay jizya or they should fight. So there is not such thing as forceful conversion per se. It is a misunderstanding. Xians can and do live under Muslim rule.

  • Enigmie

    Also jfrater, what about the crusades?

  • PC

    Agree with comment 529 and others. The crusades were wars of religion. They were in the name of religion and often called for by the pope and such like. Thousands died for what? A desert land that even today people are still fighting over even as I type this sentence!

    How Depressing.

  • Cybogen

    It is wrong for Jihad to have violent desires upon their nonbelieving counterparts. It is a simple and righteous virute to show Love for one Another to give credibility to religious beliefs. how could anysuch religion call itself true if it condones violence. Love and Kindness is the key.

  • USA today

    over the past 2 thousand years christians have commited more atrocities than muslims, buddhists, jews, hindhus,sikhs etc put together…..forcing christianity on sub saharan africa….latin america….tryin to force it in india with varyin degrees of success….killing Jews over thousands of years in “revenge” thats mainstream christianity. add on to that wacky mid western american christianity where brother marry sisters etc and u have a new number 1

  • noname

    What we accomplish as humans is most likely of little importance to the universe we are in. And all our religions and arguments and gods will do nothing to alter that.
    Perhaps we have the ability to live as a species until the end of time (or infinitely) – but we’ve done little to show that to be the case.

  • What we do well, is to do what other animals do on much larger scales. From superstition/religion (intermittent reinforcement and mistaking coincidence for causation), to killing for the sake of having less competition in the gene pool or future well-being of our offspring, to destruction of the habitats that we depend on for survival.

    We differ very little from the species we live with, and from our past we learn only how to repeat our actions on a grander scale while hopefully minimizing the repercussions (to ourselves).

    There is no wrong or right – we are who we are, in spite of god, religion, and our wishes to the contrary.

    ========
    My own philosophy of life

    +1-1=0
    or 0=-1+1

    Something from nothing, or vice versa. Whether we live on one side of the equation or the other is just a coin flip – both sides are equally valid states, no matter how long you hold your breath or stamp your feet.

    Now if we expand that to 0=-1+1=-2+1+1=-1+2-5-2+1.5+4.25+0.25=and so on to infinite combinations, the probability of being on the zero side of that equation drops to, well, zero.

    Q. Why are we here? A. Why not.

  • Dirty Jersey

    Frankly, I find it unfair that Muslims are at the top of the list, despite the fact that we have been killing ourselves within our own Christian based morals for centuries now…

  • sohail

    The holy quran does not ‘mandate’ killing of innocent people. The real muslims DO not support these jehadis who’re spreading hate in the name of islam.

  • jerryg534

    what about the crusades? those were pretty bad

  • lostatsea1

    The sanctimonious religious perverts who forced indigenous children into ‘schools’ where they were forced to deny their culture and were sexually abused by these charlatins. The Catholic Church is still settling claims over this atrocity.
    The ancient Pagan beliefs were more Earth friendly and the Buddhist the most benevolent to society as a whole. The main religions only preach division and hatred and seek to convert all others to their way.

  • JJ

    this is completely unaccurate.
    first of all, jihad does NOT mean holy way, it is the islamic word for ‘struggle’ (on another List on listverse) for faith, NOT for proselytization.
    second, it is NOT mandated by the Koran, on the contrary, the Koran forbids it!!
    third, the inquisitions should probably second on the list, with all the injustice and torture involved.

  • JJ

    and yes, as jerryg534 menitoned, the crusades were the most ridiculous, the slaughter of people who did not convert to christianity, it was widespread; there were nine of them i believe.

  • Niurvindol

    Personally, I find it funny you forgot to mention the crusades…

    • muffler

      The Crusades were not about religion, they were about money. The middle-east was super-rich at the time. Religion was a great lie to use to get people fired up about going to get themselves killed so someone else could get rich. Don’t kid yourself, it was ALWAYS about the money.

  • Modman

    What about the annihilation of the Aztecs by the Spanish?

  • JDD

    I hate to break it to you, but Stalin, Lenin, and Mao Zedong, responsible for tens of millions of deaths in the 20th century, were all atheists. It’s true that some people use religion to justify violence, but the evidence of history suggests that religion has an over-all calming effect on human violence.

  • Dr.Octopus

    JDD don’t forget to add Enver Hoxha of Albania. He was a tyrant and he forced people to become atheist.

  • bassbait

    I think there’s one that is not NEARLY as well known, but just as relevant, especially considering this isn’t even a top 10.

    Mormon Extermination order. In the 1800’s, the government of Missouri (and I think there were other states) made it legal to exterminate LDS members on sight. So apparently the land of the free, with freedom of religion thinks that it’s ok to kill people because of their religion. THAT is definitely an atrocity that deserves a fine mention.

  • deux

    I think the worst atrocities ever committed was against indigenous peoples of the Americas, by Europeans

  • Dickbutt

    Now write an article about the suffering bad science has caused through the ages. You’re gonna rack up an impressive kill-count that way too.

  • Merlin

    The Holocaust perhaps should be on this board, as well as the genocide against natives carried out by the ever so righteous Christian missionaries.

  • ash m w

    Thats why im an atheist…

  • Jawad

    What about the ethnic cleansing and expulsioj of Palestine in 1948 in the name of Zionism?
    or do 700,000 Palestinians not count?

  • owl-chick

    Terrorism and murder is no way to advertise a religion. It’s just fodder for stereotypes.

  • AnnA

    I found this list a *really* interesting find. One of the few times a haphazard internet find is really worth one’s time!!

    Nonetheless, I have two problems with this list: One, it’s extremely incomplete, leaving out some horrendous atrocities (e.g., the crucades) while including minor ones like the witch hunting in New England. (Okay, it’s maybe good to add “Americans did it too”… but still! :o))

    The other, more severe issue is the exaggeration of the deaths through Jihad and other factual inaccuracies. I certainly don’t advocate Jihad or other injustices… but making a false claim about millions of deaths and claiming all deaths from Islam to be “one” atrocity is just very disappointing at the end of an otherwise fascinating compilation. By the same logic, Christianity would have committed a single atrocity from Roman times until the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq–and I hope we agree that that is balloney as well.

    PS: Reply to #550 about Palestine in 1948: I find it correct that the Nakba is missing in this list–it was not primarily due to religion. That clearly doesn’t make things better for the victims, but still it’s not “in the Name of Religion.”
    to #548: No, the Holocaust was quite the opposite–orchestrated and mainly perpetrated by *non*-religious Germans. BTW, non-religious or even contra-religious atrocities would make an interesting parallel list and include many modern injustices ranging from Nazi Germany to Soviet Russia and Communist China. Fortunately or sadly religion is neither a protection against nor a guarantee for atrocities–but a way to rally people for things either good or bad. And there are other ways to do that too.

  • pngr

    What euro-Americans did to Native peoples in north and south america with the permission of the pope.

  • The Holocaust was a religious genocide. Hitler and many priests, pastors, reverends, and the like, believed he was doing and act of God. If that's not religious, nothing is.

    The CHRISTIAN God mind you… No offense, but it's true.

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  • ahmed

    you are a big lair about Islam jihad Muslims never ever killed civil people in Islam wars and look who kill now muslims in Afganstan and Iraq and palastine, shishnia,Kashmir and China

  • Rick G

    To equate the Mountain Meadows Massacre, while a heinous crime that took the lives of 120+ emigrants, with the likes of The Inquisition, The Roman Persecution, and the Salem Witch Hunts as an "atrocity in the name of religion" is laughable. There are absolutely no similarities between the forces behind any of these other events, and a very small group of renegade Mormons on the Utah frontier in the 1850's. Just sayin' …

  • Nick

    How about the catholic church's stance on contraception and its link to the spread of HIV and overpopulation (linked inevitably to famine) in Africa? Surely this borders on atrocity?

  • Bobbie

    If in the early years of Islam Muslim armies spread the faith rapidly: east to India……why is India still a Hindu country? Obviously forced conversion 1300 – 1400 years ago, when the population of India was much smaller, was never attempted.

    Who is holding a sword to the backs of 60,000 American converts to Islam every year now?

  • Ica

    haven’t read all the comments, but does no one remember the genocide in ex-yugoslavia to bosnian muslims by christian serbs? or would that be glossed over as political too?

  • Soshann

    I think it bears mentioning that the Spanish conquistadores committed genocide against the Aztecs and Incas in the name of their God.If you’re going to include the Aztecs,those who later massacred them in the name of religion should be included.

  • Bilal

    How can you say the Qu’ran ask us to make war to non-muslims? And jihad don’t mean “holy war”, but “struggle”.

  • Artie Langston

    Don’t you find it wrong to post a picture of modern Buddhist monks bravely and non-violently standing up to a brutal dictator in a list of religious atrocities, when Buddhists were neither responsible or condoned the atrocity? There are plenty of scholarly works on the Animist native religion of Burma which make this clear. Did you feel you had to be somewhat dishonest to be “balanced”?

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  • Velmpiesial

    Name

  • martin3eh

    The Crusades??

  • Alexander Zhurkov

    uhh… CRUSADES ANYONE?

  • Ibraheem

    um , i’d just like to say that Jihad in Islam basically means to go to battle to protect what is to be protected , infact , Allah , in the Holy Quran , forbids attacking anyone who has not attacked Muslims first , any groups commiting terrorism in the name of Islam and jihad are wrong , and they will burn in hell

  • CoortInpuboro

    Name

  • Sami

    This is a great List, it’s intrestng.

    but just cariouse why should Islam is the First, there is more much brutal in the name of religions.

    and these people totaly not muslims, they never count as muslims, the Doctrine of Jihad is large and it’s study it self.

    i have doing some research and i found a very nice explination about Jihad if people are intresting to look in it

    http://www.muslim.org/islam/jihad.htm

    sorry guys i loved the list and it’s interesting. very good job. but it’s make me sad to see that people understand islam that they are terrorist.

    well lol i agree there is a lot of dump people who commit bad things in the name of religion.

    :) anyway. thanks for the list :)

  • vermilionskin

    Crusades??

  • Anjang Akuan

    What a poor list. Obviously the writer is prey to common stereotypes put on religions, especially regarding putting Islamic Jihad on number on on the list.

    • Stephen page

      I’m a Christian and I agree with you. Teat are obvious biased and have conveniently left out the crusades.

  • Stephn page

    What a very biased article. You didn’t even mention the crusades. It seemed to ignore some of the Christian atrocities.

  • Seth

    What about the Crusades?

  • f0rest

    i would like to point out an error for number 1

    Islamic jihad does not mean holy war

    Jihad means a struggle… Everyone does jihad in life.. everyday
    Islamic jihad does not mean holy war, but means anything u do as a struggle in Islam… which could be anything (e.g struggling not to lie, to sin…)

  • eibandara

    why take Budhisum in to this? Budhisum doesn’t believe in sacrifice of any living animal. Buddha condemns all animal sacrifices saying it’s meaningless and cruel. all animals fear death and pain. all animal should be allowed to live without fear.

    May be Burma killed these people according to some stupid local ritual, a mythical belief of the people. that’s not Buddhisum.

    it’s wrong to use this monks image carrying Budha’s picture. this must be a protest against something else… You are purposely misleading people.

    Do you know any other incidents to prove Buddisum has killed in the name of religion? I am interested to know

    Most of the crimes in the world has taken place in the name of the God. unbearable crimes have been committed in the name of God. Who is the most kind and merciful….. Behind this word ‘god’, there is nothing but men’s desire to win power and keep power. God has been always used to gain political power. other than that God has done nothing good.

    If he was a real God he would never let us know he exists and save us lot of trouble :))))

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  • 378jak

    what about millions of hindus mass murdered by mugals. how about portugese burned alive hindu boys to intimidate who chose not to convert to christianity. how about almost one million kasmiri pandits who were kicked out from kasmir. how about the distruction of hinduism in pakistan for last 50 years….how about distruction of hinduism and hindus in bangladesh in last 50 years……

  • Ramiel

    That Burmese Buddhist sacrifices is complete BS. British governors stopped it? LOL? In 1850s? Burma’s capital was only captured by the British in 1885. Do your homework.

  • +|JOANOFARK

    JESUS LOVE ME <E

  • Muhammed Atef

    hey there ,
    I completely disagree with that list ! Muslims Jihads never started an attack , and If You know anything about the Islamic History You will know that Jihads only attacked European Cross Military who came to kill them and take their country
    ahh and I think too that 1st item on list would be European cross/Jewish/etc those who really are hungry for blood !
    Thank You and Please dont speak about anything that You dont know !!!

    • farasat

      To the author of this list,i am in complete disagreement with your list and bias you have displayed against the religion of Islam and 1.5 billion Muslims.You have targeted a religion and it’s follower.if i were to follow you logic then Christianity is the biggest force of terrorism and deprivation.The christian terrorists killed millions of people.they wiped out the Native indians and took over their lands.The Spanish inquisition was responsible for genocide of Native Spanish Muslims.Christians were the force behind crusades,slave trade, imperialism, colonialism and forceful conversion of northern Europe through a series of crusades.They took over the Oceania,treated its native people unjustly and annihilated most of them.Nowadays their church leaders are force in child molestation and rape.the christian countries like U.S and UK invades countries like Afghanistan and Iraq and have killed over a million innocent civilians. Christian terrorist outfits also operates today for e.g IRA.

      • History is Great…

        While I am not a muslim, I understand your being insulted and could not agree with you more …false christianity under the leadership of Pope, catholic church etc have been the biggest terrorist in all of history. Hitler by comparison is a minor street corner bully when compared to them. However True christianity as founded by Jesus Christ was never intended to be this way. Unfortunately history speaks for itself but few today listen. The fact that Muslim religon was shown as the NO 1 on this list was purposefully done to incite more blind patriotic fever induced blood lust on the sheeplike minds of too many americans so that they can believe muslims are the new boogey men, terrorist, like the nazi’s and communistic bloc nations were in days of old.

  • careytommy

    Uthman Dan Fodio (stupid man) led a jihad to ‘dip the koran in the atlantic ocean’.
    It is still going on today and is the reason why you always hear about religious conflicts in Nigeria.
    Immediately after independence in 1960, Ahmadu Bello (Fodio’ grandson) made a broadcast on national radio reminding muslim northerners that Nigeria is ‘their father’s estate’ and as such the jihad which has been in ‘suspension’ during colonialism was once again in full gear!

  • Chris

    The Mountain Meadows Massacre was not religiously motivated. That company was moving west, boasting from town to town that they were going to find and kill the Mormons when they ran across them. So this group planned, prepared, and got the drop on them. Not that the slaughter of the entire group was a good thing, or not deplorable-it was, and they will get theirs for it. But don’t try to say that they were motivated by their faith-that’s simply not true. I would posit that they acted in spite of their faith.

  • Chris

    Additionally, while religion was used (very effectively) as a recruiting tool at the time, the Crusades were fought for land, money, and power. Not for God.

    • History is great learning tool

      absolutely true, God was the last thing the preists, church and pope had on their minds, it was solely about the money, land & power.

  • andrudwia

    Name

  • muffler

    2 was done in the name of religion. However, it was arguably not an atrocity. You get 1 point though for this one, it was your best one overall afterall.

    8 was probably done in the name of religion, but we don’t know enough to know that for certain. It may have been about money and/or power like most atrocities. Preponderance of evidence is on your side on this one though so I will give you a full point for this.

    1 was done in the name of religion, but it was only done for religious reasons occasionally. Most of the time it was for the usual reasons, power and money. I will give you this one though, to be nice. 3 points so far, and that is all you get…

    4, 5, and 7 were done in the name of religion, but they were not done for religious reasons. They were done for power and money. 0 points.

    3 and 6 were so far from being done in the name of religion that based on their inclusion I almost thought I was reading the Onion. -2 points

    You finish with 1 point. I don’t think that is enough even get you a down payment on the I in an internet.

    • muffler

      Just read the comments above about Burma. You just lost the point for number 2. 0 points overall now.

  • History is Great

    WOWeveryone has such passionate positions (which is ok) but I think the biggest and worse hypocrite was/is the catholic church from the time it was established as (or rather taken over by ) the state religon for Rome they have forever been lost since they reject the true christian faith that was established by christ and perverted it into every loathsome pagan practice already known to man. (In my humble opinion no other group is as Bloodguilty as the Catholic Church and all its popes, bishops, cardinals, Knights Templar, Jesuits etc.) They did this by “christianizing existing pagan beliefs” WHENEVER they conquered or missionaried some new territory, they simply change a word here (pagan practice) or there and say it is holy now, for that matter their converts down through history werent even allowed to own bibles…Why? because then the people would know they were being lied to…about everything. (Historical Fact: Catholic chuch put the hit out on protestants because those dang heretics were not just reading the bibles but passing them out and even translating them!!!) I have been studying a lot of history for 25 plus years and nothing gets me more angry than the wool pulled over billions of peoples eyes down through history than this organized crime syndicate, And before some of you go all wacko on me saying Im just anit catholic etc….I really am!!! But i dont hate the people because most of them are really nice, just extremely uninformed and in fear of their preist and purgatory, limbo and hell burning so much so that most often they have given up any geniune search for truth. Ok So I know some of you will go balistic now so Go ahead with your name calling etc. Oh and one last bit of historical note: Why is it that americans (as a whole) was so dead set against any president ever being Catholic?? I always wanted to know this and finally got my answer….You will have to do you own research but here is a hint: 1800’s, US President, Jesuit preists, when you find what these all have to do with each other then you will have your answer.

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  • Andrew LIndsay

    where is mention of the crusades ???? seriously .. that should be number 1

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  • Galigal

    Religion, corporations, all the same, power and $$$… and they both commit the worsts atrocities to humankind.

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