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Crime

Top 10 Most Wanted Fugitives

Tamala . . . Comments

There was jubilation last week as Radovan Karadic (the most wanted man in Europe) was caught after 13 years on the run. The worst crimes on his indictment are the 43-month siege of Sarajavo in which 10,000 civilians were killed and the massacre of 7000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenicain in July 1995. There are thousand of fugitives around the globe including terrorists, killers, drug smugglers, and war criminals. This is a list of 10 such fugitives – 10 of the world’s most evil and dangerous men on the run. Many more could have made this list, so this is just a brief account of some of the well-known and not so well-known criminals from around the globe.

10

Gangster Noel Cunningham

 39150592 Noel Cunningham203

He escaped from a prison transport van in June 2003, he was being taken from Brixton prison to face charges over a £1.25 million security van heist in which the driver of the van was shot in the knee after he was ordered to open the door while his colleague was pistol-whipped. His partner in crime was convicted in February of using a gun to escape from the van. Detectives have vowed that Cunningham will have his day in court.

9

Crime boss James J Bulger

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Linked to 18 murders he has evaded the FBI for 9 years. Known as Whitey, the 78-year-old Boston crook is on the U.S. 10 most wanted list for drug dealing, money laundering, extortion, murder and other organised crimes. He is known to use disguises to visit libraries and historic sites. The FBI is offering $1 million for information leading to his arrest.


8

Drug dealer Joaquin Guzman Loera

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The top target of American drug enforcement administration, also known as Shorty, the 54 year old heads the Sinaloa Cartel International drug traffickers, he reputed pays up to $2 million to lieutenants to keep him safe and is said to change mobile phones after each conversation. Loera follows the Sinaloan credo of not killing innocent people and is regarded as a Robin Hood type character.

7

Fraudster Asil Nadir

 39411762 Nadir 203

In 1990 following the collapse of his Polly Peck business empire he fled from the UK to northern Cyprus. He was prosecuted on various counts of theft and fraud but failed to appear for trial in 1993 having absconded to the unrecognised Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus – which has no extradition treaty with the UK. He is wanted on theft charges of 34 million. In 2003 he vowed to return to clear his name but refused until the British Government promised not to remand him in jail until his trial.

6

Ex-spy Andrei Lugovoi

Landrei Lugovoi

The former KGB spy aged 42 is wanted in the UK for the murder of soldier and spy Alexander Litvinenko, who died in 2006 after being poisoned with radioactive polonium-210 in London. The authorities say they have enough to charge Lugovoi but the Russians refuse to hand him over. He protests his innocence from Moscow and claims MI6 spies, the Russian Mafia or Kremlin opponent Boris Berezovsky carried out the killing.

5

War chief Augustin Bizimana

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So far 83 people wanted for genocide by the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (UN-ICTR) have been apprehended. Augustin Bizimana is the most senior of the 13 remaining still at large. The 54 year old former defense minister faces charges over the massacre of 800 000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus in 1994. Six years ago the U.S. offered a $5 million reward for his capture but he has evaded capture.


4

Dictator Omar Hassan al-Bashir

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The UN says the ethnic cleansing carried out by Sudanese dictator Omar Hassan al-Bashir left 300 00 dead and 2.5 million homeless in the Darfur region, where his regime used rape as an instrument of terror. International Criminal Court prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo requested a warrant to arrest him on 10 charges genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity but critics said it would make matters worse for the people of Darfur. Last week al-Bashir, 63, danced in front of a massive crowd and gave a defiant speech during a visit to Darfur.

3

Dr Death Aribert Heim

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Known as Dr Death SS officer Dr Aribert Heim is accused of the killing and torture of inmates at the Mauthausen concentration camp. Now 94, his methods included injecting toxic compounds into the hearts of victims and performing surgery without anaesthetic. He is one of the last major Nazi fugitives still at large. He fled Germany in 1962. This month, it was revealed he was living in Chile. The Simon Wiesanthal Centre and German and Austrian governments are offering a $495,000 reward.


2

Army Chief Ratko Mladic

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Mladic, 66, was Bosnian Serb leader Karadzic’s army chief and a key figure in the ethnic cleansing of Croats and Muslims. He was indicted for genocide by the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (UN-ICTY) at The Hague in 1995. The Serbia government is offering $1 million for his capture while the USA is offering $5 million. He is one of only two of 161 wanted by the UN-ICTY who remain free. The other is Goran Hadzic who faces 14 counts of war crimes.

1

Terrorist Osama Bin Laden

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The man allegedly behind the world’s worst terror attack continues to evade justice almost seven years after 9 /11 in which 3000 people died. Saudi Arabian Osama Bin Laden, 51, has also been indicted over the 1998 embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. There is almost $50 million reward on his head. His most likely whereabouts are thought to be around the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan. US intelligence officials believe that he no longer uses a cell phone.

Contributor: Tamala



  • romerozombie

    According to celestial formations, Bin Laden will be caught this year.

    • wat

      looks like your celestial formations were wrong xD

    • ali

      nah forget it bin laden is never gettin caught they'll never catch him alive or dead

      • whatever

        he already got caught hes dead now

      • j

        looks like you were wrong! hehehe

    • $§

      Looks like romerozombie has lost his brain X)

    • Manix

      Good call

  • Rey

    Emmanuel Goldstein … er, sorry, Osama bin Laden, died in December, 2001. Killed by Omar Sheikh. His funeral was well reported in Pakistan and Syria. Both Pervez Musharraf and Benazir Bhutto – leaders of a country that would be in position to know – have made public comments about this. Khalid Sheikh Muhammed has also told this to American officials, but of course, the CIA has admitted that they destroyed the tapes of his interrogation. As for his inclusion on the most wanted list? Get real. As Richard Myers said, "The goal has never been to get Bin Laden." Pretending he is still alive makes for a convenient boogie man to inspire fear and terror whenever the current administration needs the public to feel fear and terror – witness the visceral comments to this very article – but it's naive to believe he's still out there on the run.

    • oh

      I don’t think you were right lol

    • So they kept this dead jewish guy (chuckle) well preserved so the US military could raid the vacant compound in Pakistan just to keep the “HOAX” going?

  • Subsistence.

    Entertaining list, keep it up.

  • Star

    Excellent list

  • bushdick

    laden is not really a ‘fugitive’, is he? great list but laden, come on… the citizens of the western world open your eyes.

  • sharlu

    kinda freaky knowing these people are still out there :S

  • Vespoidea

    great list as always! quite a few spelling mistakes though.. (The Andrei Lugovoi section) sorry for being an ass!

  • Josh Lops

    nice list, but there is spelling mistakes in number six and seven Whish (which) and inj (in)

  • Cool list :-)

    Haha… when I got to number 9 (James J Bulger) I was momentarily confused – James B. Bolger is a former prime minister of New Zealand. I am glad they’re not the same person :-D

  • Barabas

    Not sure but I think bin laden is searched by the FBI only for the attacks in 93 (?) .

  • Tamala

    Vespoidea yeah yuor rghit tehre are a fwe holwers, i unfoertuantely ruhsed it a ibt, but as tdoay is ym brtihady, i’ll frovige msyfel jsut tihs ocne :P lamo

  • jfrater

    I will edit the spelling errors out – I published with only half the spell check done by mistake – I am not at home at the mo but it will be fixed within the hour.

  • jfrater

    Oh – and Tempyra: to make things even more confusing, James Bulger was the name of the little boy slaughtered by the scummy English children who are now roaming the streets of England free! More on that on this list – item 4.

  • Josh

    bushdick…..wow, do you really believe that Osama bin Laden is not a fugitive? He was behind the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center, the US Cole bombing in Yemen, the attacks on the US Embassies mentioned in the list, and let’s not forget the failed 1993 attack on the World Trade Center. So, don’t tell the Western world to open our eyes…open your eyes, my friend

  • Diogenes

    Way to pull the punches out this tuesday on listverse!

    Your story bit on Joaquin Guzman Loera made me think of the patron saint of/to drug dealers/trafficers/lords– one Jesus Malverde. He had become a “folk hero”, also represented as a “robin hood” of the peole. Real “cocaine songs” have been made about him.

    • ANA

      actually Joaquin (el chapo) Guzman is like a hero to some ppl. he has many songs and movies made after him. He has united his cartel with that of El Mayo Zambada. and Jesus Malverde is now considered the saint of all narcs.

  • Mom424

    Happy Birthday Tamala!!!! How come we get the present?

    Good job. Nice List.

  • Tamala

    ty MOM424 :)

    Josh, i had a feeling the inclusion of Bin Laden would fuel some debate, i almost left him out, there seemed no point in putting him at no2 or no7, he was either no1 or nowhere. The term fugitive implies that someone is on the run while others are actively trying to catch them. My personal opinion is that for various reasons this is NOT the case with Bin Laden.

    A list like this will be viewed by most people in the context of their own geographical and social conditions, -one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter- kind of thing, many others could’ve made this list including North Korea’s Kim Jong-il, Burma’s junta leader Than Shwe, Zimbabwe’s Robert Mugabe and Uzbekistan’s Islam Karimov, and lets not forget, former U.S. secretary of state Henry Kissinger has been accused of committing war crimes in Indochina, Bangladesh, East Timor, Chile, Cambodia, and Vietnam amongst others.

  • AmazingThor

    Some of these guys could double as the most evil men list. I didn’t know there were Nazis we still hadn’t caught. Where does he get the money to keep people from turning him in?

  • jfrater: Yeah that occurred to me after posting my first comment, that the name was familiar for more than one reason.

    I recall reading somewhere in the last year that one of those kids (who killed the child James Bulger) was now living in Australia. Dunno if it was fact or rumour though.

  • Avi

    Wow i can not believe Nazis are still on the run like that. i guess some people never die. i almost thought it was a wasted effort to keep searching for them cause old age should have killed any of the survivors but at 94 i bet he thought he got away for good. i hope he is caught and a message is sent that no one can run from justice if you have truely committed crimes against humanity like they did.

  • Tamala – Thanks for the list! Hope you have a lovely birthday :-)

  • Cyn

    edit done.
    :)

  • Tamala

    ty Tempyra :), in my home town of Paisley, Scotland we recently had a case where someone living here was accused by locals of being Robert Thompson, one of the murderers of James Bulger, he eventually left town after the police failed to give commitments concerning his personal safety, the other murderer, Jon Venables, was indeed roumored to have relocated to Australia.

  • Cyn: many thanks – to be honest – in my state of sobriety (or lack thereof) I think I would have made things worse!

  • AmazingThor: more to the point – how old must these nazis be now? Is it worth the expense and effort to track them down when they are living in hiding and have no chance of normal life before they die? Maybe it is – I don’t know.

  • Silarulz!

    Cmon jfrater…
    Where are the real fugitives? People like Félicien Kabuga, there is a $5 million dollar reward out for his capture!

  • I guess it is ironic that the convicted murderer of James Bulger should have moved to Australia – for reasons that will be obvious to those who know Aussie’s history :)

  • silarulz!: according to Wikipedia: “According to June 2008 reports by the Norwegian-based African Press International (API) Kabunga was in hiding in Oslo, Norway and might be seeking to turn himself in.” – hardly fugitive if he is considering turning himself in :)

  • Tamala

    Jfrater first of all let me apoligise for the shocking spelling mistakes, completely unforgivable and thanks to Cyn for the edit, as you know this is only my 3rd list on here, so have to do better in future.
    your comment @ 24 i completely agree i really cant see the purpose of hunting for these people anymore.
    @ 26 exactly what i was thinking when i was writing the reply lol

  • Tamala: no probs on the spelling issue – I normally do a better job of checking but as I said, we hit a glitch today :)

    Diogenes: I don’t say this often enough, but I do love reading your comments – they are a breath of fresh (albeit often unusual) fresh air :)

  • jake

    man those are some mean sons of bitches i didnt know that humans could have so much disregaurd for there fellow man thats crazy

  • timmie

    Great list!

    I was going to say that Victor Bout should be on the list but remembered that he’d been caught just this march. :)

  • trojan_man

    jfrater and tamala: Maybe the “old” Nazis are being hunted to help his victim’s families. I don’t think it is a case of whether or not it is “worth it the expense”. Maybe it is for closure. If you have ever truly been a victim of this type, you would know what I am saying.

  • trojan_man: having never been a victim of genocide I shall have to take your word for it – thank for replying to my question! :)

  • Eve

    Dr.Death was recently exposed by a tabloid in the UK(if I remember correctly)-I couldn’t believe that even at 94 he was having no remorse whatsoever about his victims and was boasting about his terrible deeds.
    It seems that so many people nowadays are compared to Robin Hood -the poop guy has become the most used and abused comparison figure in history.It is time for somebody to put together Top 10 Robin Hoods of our time….

  • astraya

    There are now visa requirements for British criminals to come to Australia!

  • I agree with trojan_man – for the crimes the Nazi’s perpetrated against humanity, they all should be brought to justice no matter how long it’s been or how old they are. It would almost be like they got a free ride. All time spent in hiding true, but they still hadn’t stood trial for their crimes.

  • Sharki

    To be fair, Bin Laden has never been charged with the Sept. 11th attacks. Technically he is only wanted for the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.

  • Ruairi

    I second the notion of a list of the Top 10 Real Robin Hoods… i could make it myself but i cant as i cant read or write.

    maybe im just too lazy.

  • dangorironhide

    Good list, it’s interesting to read about these people.

  • Silarulz!

    Jfrater: Kabuga is in Kenya. I saw him today on my way to work!

  • Cyn

    @ Tamala
    np
    @ J
    :)

  • Mac

    Interesting list, though Asil Nadir (no 7) seems to stick out like a sore thumb amongst the perpetrators of murders and genocide (though I know nothing of him beyond what is mentioned here).

    NOT that Nadir’s fraud is justifiable at all or that he shouldn’t be punished, but you would think there are *more* wanted and dangerous killers or something. He just doesn’t seem to fit in with the rest of the list. Curious.

  • Ghidoran

    Cool

  • jfrater:

    “I guess it is ironic that the convicted murderer of James Bulger should have moved to Australia – for reasons that will be obvious to those who know Aussie’s history :)”

    A subtle piece of Aussie-baiting lol ;-)

    Tamala: Wow, wouldn’t it be horrible if the guy wasn’t him? Being compelled to leave a town because people might think you’re a child killer.

    If I recall correctly there were lots of rumours going around (here in Aussie-land) that Jon Venables was involved in the murder of a small girl at a shopping centre in Western Australia. I think the police decided it was someone else entirely, but a lot of people were pretty annoyed (having found out through the publicity of the murder) that another government let the guy come here like a normal immigrant.

  • Grace M

    Interesting list. One comment about hunting down Nazi criminals. I know they’re old, most of them are dead, but hunting them down does serve a purpose. Many would be members of regimes around the world who are committing crimes now should be aware that once they stop they can’t just live peacefully for the rest of their days. They will have to look behind their shoulders forever. It’s not a punishment to equal the atrocities they’re committing but it doesn’t give them a free ride. It seems somehow inadequate but it really does need to be done.

  • Csimmons

    great list, very entertaining, keep up the good list!

  • Iain

    Personally, I think it’s entirely appropriate that someone from Paisley should come up with a list of ne’er-do-wells and all round ‘scunners’.

    Iain (ex-Greenock)

  • Joshua

    A good number of people think Bin Laden is dead…

  • Flock O’Seagulls

    Tamala, “bushd***” (classy name, btw)–so, Bin Laden isn’t really a fugitive and might even be classified a “freedom fighter,” huh? I tell you what–let’s set up a situation where you are faced with the choice of diving off a skycraper or roasting alive–the situation the 9/11 victims faced. You people literally make me ill.

  • SocialButterfly

    Well done on the list Tamala… great read it was informative without being too much.

    Oh and btw: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

  • jake

    id love to catch Bin Laden id take a blow tourch to his whole body

    and some one up there said that Bin Laden wasnt a fugitive and that we need to opean our eyes you my friend are RETARTED take a second and think about what you just have said yeah every one on this list is a bad person and they all needa be delt with….. im just sayen to me Bin Laden is pure evil to have his followers do something like 9/11 or the many more attacks that he has been behind im glad he needs to be number one

  • Tamala

    Ian @ 47 lmao i see these scunners everyday as you know :)

    SocialButterfly @50 tyvm

    Flock O’Seagulls @49 i didnt say Bin Laden was a freedom fighter i was merely quoting an old saying to demonstrate how different people with different belief systems from around the world can have entirley different opinions. I neither said he wasnt a fugitive or that he was a freedom fighter. Please read comment 16 again

  • Hobolad

    @Jake: I’ve not read the argument so far, but do you not see the irony?

    Bin Laden I won’t defend, his actions are abhorrent. *But* how is it any different from the actions of those hunting him? Or the actions of our own countries past and present?

    When Bin Laden kills innocents, it’s *evil* right? When we kill innocents, it’s a means to an end. We think we’re allowed, but we’re just the same.

    I mean, take Hiroshima & Nagasaki for instance- the largest loss of life by terrorist action (if I’m not mistaken). You can say we murdered all those innocents as a means to an end, so it’s okay. But isn’t Bin Laden doing exactly the same thing- killing as a means to an end?

    Again, not defending him- I see him as guilty as you do, but if he’s “Pure Evil” then what does that make us, killing innocents in an attempt to fight him/killing innocents to fight faux-Communism/killing hundreds of thousands of innocents to display nuclear power to the Soviets/killing innocents for resources/killing innocents to protect the interests of companies abroad etc etc etc?

    I don’t reckon there’s such a thing as “good” and “evil”, but whatever.

  • Hobolad

    Nice list by the way, I’ll keep an eye open just in case :)

  • “you my friend are RETARTED”

    Comment of the day? :-D

  • Tamala

    Rey “As Richard Myers said, “The goal has never been to get Bin Laden.” that was another reason i thought twice about including Bin Laden, as i said in an earlier post i didnt believe he was in the true sense of the word a *fugitive*
    he aint hiding, and no1 is looking for him!!!

  • bucslim

    Hobolad, how exactly was Hiroshima and Nagasaki a ‘terrorist action?’

    • bronzezeus

      Because Japan was gonna surrender in a matter of days and we knew that but still dropped the bombs that killed hundreds of thousand of men, women and children….thats why.

  • Mike D

    Fascinating group of criminals but I can’t figure out why Dick Cheney isn’t listed.

  • kowzilla

    Temyra (56)

    Nay.
    Comment of the YEAR.

  • Randall

    Hobolad:

    I was going to tear you apart, but I find it makes me feel dirty to even get near defending the current administration’s actions, and as such therefore I find some of what you say to be sensible.

    However, this nonsense about Hiroshima and Nagasaki… is just that. Pure nonsense. It’s utter cant to call the action of bombing those cities “terrorism.” Don’t give me the moral relativist arguments here Hobolad. They won’t wash.

    Hiroshima and Nagasaki were actions taken during *wartime* in a declared war between nations. This is completely different, yes, from the actions of individuals murdering hundreds of people in an undeclared action of terrorism.

    My arguments regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been covered in full in the commentary under the Harry Truman list here:

    https://listverse.com/people/top-25-quotes-of-harry-truman/

    I suggest you read my comments there.

  • Phil

    “you my friend are RETARTED”

    That is classic alright. Slogan for listverse tshirt perhaps.

  • Phil

    Bit like, “Get a Brain Morans”

  • Bob

    What’s with the “crimes against humanity” thing, anyway? Sounds rather grandiose to me. How about “crimes against these particular humans”? You convict a person for a particular crime. When you start convicting for vague statements that preach well, down the line it isn’t “humanity” that suffers, but humans.

  • Ro

    Dictator Omar Hassan al-Bashir is no fugitive. He’s the dictator of Sudan and can be seen on the media. If any government feels that some action is needed to oust him, they they can go ahead and do it, given they are capable of the task. He’s always there on Sudan and is not fleeing from anything because he does’t have to. Nobody is applying that kind of pressure just yet. So how is he a fugitive?

  • Randall

    Phil:

    “you my friend are RETARTED”

    That is classic alright. Slogan for listverse tshirt perhaps.

    —-actually, that is the best suggestion I’ve heard in ages.

  • bucslim

    Just lying in wait Randall, the posse is here and we got yer back.

    No need to raise an eyebrow, you can go back to your Obama shrine and “Change We Can Believe In” chants knowing your neocon friend is pooh-poohing the revisionists. (giggle, snort, titter, guffaw, harrumph)

    I just hope they aren’t teaching that bullshit in school, damned hippies!

  • bucslim

    RETARTED – to have once been a tart, then repented, then began tarting again.

    alt: to eat a tart, then consume a second tart, then reporting such action to a good friend.

    “That schmores pop tart was so good, I retarted.”

  • deepthinker

    Wow… is it really that easy to evade capture? I can’t even hide from my family for 5 minutes, without being found! Cell phones… blessing, or curse?

  • Callie

    bucslim my coworker just looked at me funny cause I laughed rather loudly.

    Jake thinks he’s a lolcat. “I are retarted. for realz. nom nom nom nom.”

  • Bob – 64

    What’s with the “crimes against humanity” thing, anyway? Sounds rather grandiose to me.

    It is grandiose, but it also fits in with what the Nazi’s had done. They didn’t target individuals, but complete races. That is humanity as a whole. You can charge them with the killing and suffering of how many thousands or hundreds of thousands, but in the end, they really committed crimes against humanity in general.

    IMHO it lessens the crimes to call it crimes against these particular humans.

  • bucslim

    That’s some funny shit Callie, I think I’m going to start using that word in my everyday conversations.

  • JayArr

    I heard that Dr. Death is Dead.

    Interesting list, though I would not have put 10, 7 and 6 on this list… they are pretty tame by all accounts in comparison to others (too many for me to name here) who’d be better candidates for this list.

  • Hobolad

    I don’t particularly care if they are technically “terrorism” or not- doesn’t change a damn thing about what happened. I, as merely a layman, I would call any targeting of civilians as terrorism- hell, all those civilians didn’t declare war on anyone.

    You say I’m revisionist, I say you’d be making excuses for a heinous act- if of course you’d given me the dignity of actually giving an argument rather than expecting me to take your word for it, or read through some 120-odd comment list.

    So, really- calling it terrorism or not, it’s still a dickhead thing to do, if not technically “terrorism”, it’s on the same level, in that it’s the killing of innocents to achieve an end. It’s no better.

    Not sure who the “Obama” comment was directed at- if it was me, well, I’m foreign, and anyway I find him to be just another hypocrite politician (I’ll wait for a relevant list to pop up though- or at least give him a chance at actually doing stuff before passing “final” judgement) albeit better than the competition.

  • kowzilla

    Callie, bucslim, et al.

    That is the reason that you ALWAYS read over your comments before you post them on ListVerse.

  • Randall

    buc:

    I love it when you come in here all wasted.

    What relation does “retorted” bear to “retarted”? Is it something to do with Goldmember’s torturous pronunciation, “toit like a toiger”?

  • Callie

    Randall- Peace offering?

    Sandy MacReedy: I want you to kill every gopher on the course.
    Carl Spackler: Correct me if I’m wrong, Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers they’re gonna lock me up and throw away the key.

  • Callie

    just the first thing your post reminded me of

  • bucslim

    Hobolad – the first comment I made was directed at you and it’s obvious that you haven’t read a history book or have any idea what the War in the Pacific was headed toward. To suggest that it was a terrorist act is ignorant at best. Even a casual skimming of the history would reveal that the bombs actually saved many lives and put an end to a long drawn out conflict. To not drop the bomb meant a torturous and grueling invasion of Japan, where every single citizen would have fought to the death which was proven over and over and over again in the tiny islands of the South Pacific. To drop the bombs were grave decisions indeed, but righteous in every respect.

    The second comment was directed at my tree-hugger friend Randall. I was his posse.

  • Silenus

    bucslim:

    According to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, Terrorism is defined as “the systematic use of terror, especially as a means of coercion.”

    People have been conditioned by the Establishment to think that terrorism is only violence committed against… the Establishment.

    But I’d label both the attack on Pearl Harbour and The dropping of the A-bombs on Japan as acts of terrorism.
    After all, the purpose of both of these acts was to instil enough terror in their enemy to conquer them.

  • Randall

    Hobolad:

    War is what it is, Hobolad. Particularly in byegone ages when technology didn’t allow for true “precision bombing” (as much as such a thing really even exists today, which is debatable). In such circumstances, it’s naive and precious-minded to think that civilians shouldn’t be targeted or can go unharmed. And I beg to differ anyway–the citizens of Japan DID play a willing part in their country’s declaration of war upon the United States; the mere fact that neither Germany nor Japan were democracies does not excuse the German or Japanese people from culpability in what their leaders chose to do.

    People like you show a remarkable inability to place yourselves back into the mindsets of those who lived through history. Now the fact is if you had simply stated that all war is wrong and all forms of killing wrong, I’d think you were standing on a firmer and better leg. But you object only to the killing of civilians–which shows you simply don’t understand a thing about history and are just a whinging, prissy moralist with little grasp of reality. Yeah, Hobolad, it’d be nice if only soldiers had to die in war, but it’d be nicer if NO ONE had to die. It’d be nicer if wars simply didn’t happen, period. But they DO. And the reality is that a war like WWII was the bloodiest, nastiest, most godawful conflict in human history (and hopefully the last of its nature) and given the kind of war it was, and the circumstances of it, it is entirely understandable how it became a Total War between peoples, not merely a war between armies and navies. If you don’t understand this or appreciate it, well… it would take too long to get you to see reality, I’m afraid.

    You see, to paint the victims of Hiroshima merely AS victims ignores half the story. The other half of the story is the culpability of Japan itself in the war it had unleashed in the Pacific–in the atrocities committed by the Japanese–in the fact that, had Japan been able to do so, it most certainly would have annihilated American civilians as readily as it annihilated Chinese, Korean, and Filipino civilians (and others).

    Hiroshima and Nagasaki are *tragedies* of humanity, Hobolad. Not “acts of terrorism.” To call them that brings them down to the level of a street suicide bomber. They were much more than that, much more. Hiroshima was both wrong AND right, good (in that they brought an end to the war) AND horrible and horrific… but no more crimes than the fact that war itself is a crime.

    I’m not making excuses for Hiroshima–I’m pointing out to you that your naivete clouds your judgement on the issue.

    As for giving you an argument–you want it, I got it. But don’t blame me for your own laziness. I gave you the link to list with my earlier statements, and you needn’t look through a “120-odd comments.” My statements are near the end of the commentary and are clearly marked with my name. It was an argument between myself and someone named “Steve.” The only reason I don’t wish to reprint all that here is because it wastes everyone else’s time and takes up too much space. If you insist on it though, I’d be glad to slam you down on this point as readily as I did Steve.

    I am not happy that hundreds of thousands of Japanese had to die in those two cities (but it’s also a myth that only civilians died there—both cities were military bases and many soldiers and sailors were killed). I’d rather that entire war had never happened. But to call the Japanese citizens of those cities “innocents” ignores the whole truth of that period of history–and your persistence in so calling them so is inane and ignorant of reality.

  • Randall

    Callie:

    Sure thing. I never carry things over from one list to another. It simply isn’t done.

    or.. well, I shouldn’t say never. We’re all only human.

  • Randall

    buc:

    Bless my posse and all who feed them.

    And I haven’t hugged a tree in ages, man. ‘cept the mast on my boat–and that’s aluminum, so it doesn’t count. Plus, sounds dirty… “hugging the mast.”

  • CacophonyCentral

    Randall:

    “the citizens of Japan DID play a willing part in their country’s declaration of war upon the United States; the mere fact that neither Germany nor Japan were democracies does not excuse the German or Japanese people from culpability in what their leaders chose to do.”

    So, by extension, the victims of September 11th desrved what they got, because they were culpable for what Bush et al did in the Middle East?

    And Randall, I’ve just read the comments between you and Steve in the Truman list and no, you didn’t “slam him down.” In fact, his posts were much more erudite and eloquent than your own, and tempered with a gallant politeness which you yourself lacked.
    Please. You’re not as clever as you think you are.
    And don’t bother responding to this post with your usual string of playground insults, as I’ve got better things to do than sit around in this comments section waiting for you to call me an idiot, or dickhead, or whatever word that calling me makes you feel better about yourself.

  • Very nice list Tamala. Good job.

    By the way We just hade an earthquake here in the LA area 5.8 in Cino Hills. Felt pretty strong even 60 miles away whare I am.

  • Randall

    Cacophony:

    We, as citizens, ARE to some degree responsible for what our countries do, yes. Did that justify September 11? No. But 9/11 is not WWII, nor is the reverse the case. And I would love to see you try to prove it so.

    As for your opinions about the argument between myself and “Steve,” you of course can say and think what you like, asshole. (There. There’s a playground insult for you. You find it immature? Too bad. I don’t play gloved games with idiots who pretend they know what they’re talking about when in fact it’s clear they don’t. I never have and never will. You can call that “rude” and impolite all you like; I am no hypocrite when it comes to these matters nor am I some phony hiding behind kind words to moral pinheads).

    As for Steve having been more erudite and eloquent than me—get off it. His opinions boiled down to nonsense he’d reaped from ONE book as I recall, garnered from a small set of voices speaking on the subject. Erudition? Hardly.

    Whereas my opinions are backed up by historians and military minds from across the spectrum, from as widely varied sources as Paul Fussell (no right winger, I assure you) to General Çurtis LeMay (a hawk to end all hawks). Steve was a distorting revisionist; I based what I had to say on the real history of what went on during WWII.

    As for eloquence, to each his own. My prose speaks for itself. Clearly someone who doesn’t like what I have to say is going to attack me irrationally if rationality fails them–as it does you.

    Lastly, if YOU have better things to do than to wait around to be insulted by me, then I invite you to go do them, Cacophony… or Steve, if that is in fact who you really are. (I’d be willing to bet money on it). In any case it hardly matters; I too have better things to do than to waste time with the likes of you.

    If you’re sincere then, go away and let us both continue on here in peace.

  • Hobolad

    “Hobolad – the first comment I made was directed at you and it’s obvious that you haven’t read a history book or have any idea what the War in the Pacific was headed toward. To suggest that it was a terrorist act is ignorant at best. Even a casual skimming of the history would reveal that the bombs actually saved many lives and put an end to a long drawn out conflict. To not drop the bomb meant a torturous and grueling invasion of Japan, where every single citizen would have fought to the death which was proven over and over and over again in the tiny islands of the South Pacific. To drop the bombs were grave decisions indeed, but righteous in every respect.”

    Speculation- I guess we’ll never know, but from a casual skimming of wikipedia I see many generals and admirals and whatever saying it was completely unnecessary, that the Japanese had already sued for peace, that it was a show for the Soviets, etc.

    Still- this returns to my original point- we justify it as a means to an end, but when others do so we call them “pure evil”, when I’d imagine it’s exactly the same from their point of view. As soon as you start killing innocents, you’ve lost the moral high ground, end of.

  • bucslim

    Hobolad – You skimmed too much:

    “When Japan continued to reject the Potsdam terms, the United States then dropped atomic bombs on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in early August.”

    “On July 27, the Japanese government considered how to respond to the Declaration. The four military members of the Big Six wanted to reject it, but T?g? persuaded the cabinet not to do so until he could get a reaction from the Soviets. In a telegram, Shunichi Kase, Japan’s ambassador to Switzerland, observed that unconditional surrender applied only to the military and not to the government or the people, and he pleaded that it should be understood that the careful language of Potsdam appeared “to have occasioned a great deal of thought” on the part of the signatory governments — “they seem to have taken pains to save face for us on various points.” The next day, Japanese newspapers reported that the Declaration, the text of which had been broadcast and dropped on leaflets into Japan, had been rejected. In an attempt to manage public perception, Prime Minister Suzuki met with the press, and stated, “I consider the Joint Proclamation a rehash of the Declaration at the Cairo Conference. As for the Government, it does not attach any important value to it at all. The only thing to do is just kill it with silence (mokusatsu). We will do nothing but press on to the bitter end to bring about a successful completion of the war”.
    The meaning of the word mokusatsu, literally “kill with silence”, is not precise; it can range from ‘ignore’ to ‘treat with contempt’ — which actually described fairly accurately the range of effective reactions within the government. However, Suzuki’s statement, particularly its final sentence, leaves little room for misinterpretation and was taken as a rejection by the press, both in Japan and abroad, and no further statement was made in public or through diplomatic channels to alter this understanding.”

    That was taken directly from wikipedia. They weren’t suing for peace.

  • Randall

    Hobolad:

    Wikipedia is no primary source for these matters. It can be a starting point, but it is no substitute for volumes of history and analysis.

    The search for truth is worth more, and should take more time, than a quick Google search or a cursory reading of a Wiki entry.

  • Hobolad

    Randall:

    War is what it is, Randall. Particularly in deprived countries where technology doesn’t allow for true “precision bombing” (as much as such a thing really even exists today, which is debatable). In such circumstances, it’s naive and precious-minded to think that civilians shouldn’t be targeted or can go unharmed. And I beg to differ anyway–the citizens of America DID play a willing part in their country’s declaration of war upon Iraq; the fact that the USA is a democracy does not excuse the American people from culpability in what their leaders chose to do.

    Etc etc etc. Where’s the difference? Do you have children Randall? Do they have any say over what their leaders do? Do *you* have any more of a say than they do, really?

    “People like you show a remarkable inability to place yourselves into the mindsets of those who lived through history. Now the fact is if you had simply stated that all war is wrong and all forms of killing wrong, I’d think you were standing on a firmer and better leg.
    But you object only to the killing of civilians–which shows you simply don’t understand a thing about history and are just a whinging, prissy moralist with little grasp of reality. Yeah, Hobolad, it’d be nice if only soldiers had to die in war, but it’d be nicer if NO ONE had to die. It’d be nicer if wars simply didn’t happen, period. But they DO. And the reality is that a war like WWII was the bloodiest, nastiest, most godawful conflict in human history (and hopefully the last of its nature) and given the kind of war it was, and the circumstances of it, it is entirely understandable how it became a Total War between peoples, not merely a war between armies and navies. If you don’t understand this or appreciate it, well… it would take too long to get you to see reality, I’m afraid.”

    None of this came from me, point out what you’re referring to Randall- at the moment you’re arguing against comments you’ve conjured up yourself. If you’ll read my comments, I’m saying that we can’t call terrorists “evil” for killing innocents and then in the same breath justify our own killing of non-combatants. “Total War”- I’m sure it wasn’t the fishermen or the factory workers or even the soldiers who made it “total war”. It was only like that ’cause the leaders decided it was so- that’s no justification.

    “You see, to paint the victims of Hiroshima merely AS victims ignores half the story. The other half of the story is the culpability of Japan itself in the war it had unleashed in the Pacific–in the atrocities committed by the Japanese–in the fact that, had Japan been able to do so, it most certainly would have annihilated American civilians as readily as it annihilated Chinese, Korean, and Filipino civilians (and others).”

    You’re confusing “Japan” with “the people of Japan”, who didn’t have any kind of say in it all- like the people of all countries involved. And them killing innocents is, again, no justification. It exactly as bad, no more no less.

    “Hiroshima and Nagasaki are *tragedies* of humanity, Hobolad. Not “acts of terrorism.” To call them that brings them down to the level of a street suicide bomber. They were much more than that, much more. Hiroshima was both wrong AND right, good (in that they brought an end to the war) AND horrible and horrific… but no more crimes than the fact that war itself is a crime.”

    Plenty disagree that it brought the end to the war, and even if that was true- that is the logic the suicide bomber must use. “Regrettable but necessary to achieve… whatever goal”, and anyway Truman didn’t really voice much regret, with his whole “the Japanese people are merely beasts” or whatever it was.

    “I’m not making excuses for Hiroshima–I’m pointing out to you that your naivete clouds your judgement on the issue.”

    I would judge calling terrorist acts “evil” naive- sticking with a “Good versus Evil” fairytale.

    “As for giving you an argument–you want it, I got it. But don’t blame me for your own laziness. I gave you the link to list with my earlier statements, and you needn’t look through a “120-odd comments.” My statements are near the end of the commentary and are clearly marked with my name. It was an argument between myself and someone named “Steve.” The only reason I don’t wish to reprint all that here is because it wastes everyone else’s time and takes up too much space. If you insist on it though, I’d be glad to slam you down on this point as readily as I did Steve.

    I am not happy that hundreds of thousands of Japanese had to die in those two cities (but it’s also a myth that only civilians died there—both cities were military bases and many soldiers and sailors were killed). I’d rather that entire war had never happened. But to call the Japanese citizens of those cities “innocents” ignores the whole truth of that period of history–and your persistence in so calling them so is inane and ignorant of reality.”

    I call them “innocents” in the same way victims of terrorist attacks are called “innocent”, or I would call the civilians of any country.

    You write long posts, which is a surprise. There’s nothing there that requires it. Every arguing I’ve seen you in has been like this, long inane posts about how everyone else is naive or stupid or is just wrong, with no realy explanation, just long post after long post full of straw man argument.

    I’m gonna state my position plainly, I don’t have to hide my flimsy position behind long-winded posts, so here goes.

    *We call terrorists “evil” for killing innocents/civilians/non-combatants, as a means to an end.
    *We justify our own killing of innocents/civilians/non-combatants as a means to an end, and claim the moral high ground.
    *This I believe to be wrong- terrorists believe they’re acting for the best, as do we. It’s no different, just different points of view.
    *Hiroshima/Nagasaki may or may not have been necessary to win- still, we can’t claim moral superiority over others. Had the Axis won the war wouldn’t their atrocities be justified the same way? And wouldn’t ours be condemned?
    *I would prefer if no one got killed ever, of course. But it would be highly impractical to expect no one to ever die in wars. Non-combatants, however, aren’t quite the same as soldiers. Their killing can never be justified, intentional or accidental.

  • Hobolad

    “Hobolad:

    Wikipedia is no primary source for these matters. It can be a starting point, but it is no substitute for volumes of history and analysis.

    The search for truth is worth more, and should take more time, than a quick Google search or a cursory reading of a Wiki entry.”

    It should, if whether it ended the war or not was the point- which it isn’t. Did or didn’t, it’s exactly as justifiable as the actions of terrorists, in that it uses the ends to justify the means.

    And, Randall- I mean come on. You’re painting it out to be a rock solid fact, when it’s something obviously heavily debated in academic and military circles to this day. It’s pure small-mindedness, where if you’ll notice I acknowledge that it could be either conclusion, because I don’t know- just like you don’t know.

  • “the citizens of Japan DID play a willing part in their country’s declaration of war upon the United States; the mere fact that neither Germany nor Japan were democracies does not excuse the German or Japanese people from culpability in what their leaders chose to do.”
    Yes, the bombs stopped the war quickly, surely, and months, if not longer, ahead of what it would have taken had they not been dropped…but to assume that Japanese housewives, Japanese children, Japanese aged “got what they deserved”, is absurd.
    By this twisted logic, America being a Democratic Republic (it’s *not* aDemocracy folks, get over it), only the victims of 9/11 who voted for Bush “got what they deserved”. What about the rest of the victims?
    What about my friend, a passenger on American Airlines Flight 11, which flew into the North Tower, who had not been a Bush supporter? She had, in fact, worked hard against him. Yet she died a horrible, horrible death anyway. Was this by accident? Collateral damage?
    Why didn’t the hijackers take a poll of the passengers, and the employees of the Towers, find out who supported Bush, and give the rest time to escape?
    Oh, yeah, that would have spoiled the surprise, huh?
    *EVERYONE* Osama Bib Ladan is a terrorist. He could never be confused with a freedom fighter. Just look at the adjectives. Jumpin’ Jehosephat! They explain exactly what each is! One spreads terror. One fights for freedom.
    Could it be any simpler?

    **84. CacophonyCentral ** Randall actually is quite bright. Yes, he sometimes gets a bit wordy and overwrought, but if you plough through to the core of what he has to say, he is usually right on. Ignore his insults. He doesn’t mean them but for the moment, anyway, and search out his central message. It’s worth it.

  • Randall

    Hobolad:

    Okay, you want short and sweet because your mind can’t take it, fine.

    “*We call terrorists “evil” for killing innocents/civilians/non-combatants, as a means to an end.”

    WRONG. The “means to an end” crap is a smokescreen. We call terrorists evil for killing innocents because in doing so, they act outside of generally-accepted parameters which describe justified acts vs. unjustified or cowardly acts. NOW, as it happens you are not entirely off the mark on this matter as far as I’m concerned. I’m not one of these knee-jerk types who feel that terrorists are doing what they do simply out of “evil.” *Of course* many of them have convictions and ideas behind their deeds, and we should pay attention to this, as it’s often true that people act out when they feel oppressed or brutally treated. But let’s not fool ourselves *too much* in that direction either. Sometimes people act brutally when they feel they’ve been treated brutally–when in fact they’re largely to blame for their own problems. Human beings are as ready to play the victim, often, as they ARE actual victims.

    “*We justify our own killing of innocents/civilians/non-combatants as a means to an end, and claim the moral high ground.”

    You are ignoring the fact that war is not just a crime, in itself, Hobolad–it is also the *punishment* of a crime. Oftentimes we claim the moral high ground because we are, in fact, the injured party. This is my problem with this kind of moral relativism. I understand it and even sympathize with it–it’s often true that one man’s crime is another man’s salvation. But it isn’t ALWAYS so, either.

    “*This I believe to be wrong- terrorists believe they’re acting for the best, as do we. It’s no different, just different points of view.”

    Hardly. It’s easy to succumb to that way of thinking–in part because it carries some truth in it. But it is not *wholly* true… and I would ask you then–why do you live in a society with laws and police to back them up? Isn’t a criminal’s point of view as valid as yours? Yet you have the police to protect you, and courts? If you mean to live by this conviction you’re speaking out for, Hobolad, then I find hypocrisy in your words. Drop out of modern society, then. It’s the only way to really live by the things you’re saying.

    “*Hiroshima/Nagasaki may or may not have been necessary to win- still, we can’t claim moral superiority over others. Had the Axis won the war wouldn’t their atrocities be justified the same way? And wouldn’t ours be condemned?”

    This IS true. But does that mean neither side was right? If so, then you’re saying you would have been fine with the Axis winning the war. Is that the case? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.

    “*I would prefer if no one got killed ever, of course. But it would be highly impractical to expect no one to ever die in wars. Non-combatants, however, aren’t quite the same as soldiers. Their killing can never be justified, intentional or accidental.”

    Not so, Hobolad, and that’s where you slip into cant. Granted, there’s a fine line of distinction between the soldier and civilian–but it’s a fine one. This is why war is to be avoided, and why we don’t simply breed professional soldiers to fight our wars for us, who serve no other purpose. Soldier or not, we’re all human beings, and it works both ways–if the soldier is to die, then the civilian faces much the same risk, in war. It isn’t nice, or pleasant, but it is reality.

  • i will keep my eyes out for these people. lol =D

  • Hobolad

    Hobolad:

    “WRONG. The “means to an end” crap is a smokescreen. We call terrorists evil for killing innocents because in doing so, they act outside of generally-accepted parameters which describe justified acts vs. unjustified or cowardly acts.”

    And who gets to decide? Generally accepted by who? Not by the terrorists themselves for sure, and when it comes to their actions I shouldn’t think they give a damn about what their opponents judge unacceptable if they don’t themselves. Morality is subjective.

    “NOW, as it happens you are not entirely off the mark on this matter as far as I’m concerned. I’m not one of these knee-jerk types who feel that terrorists are doing what they do simply out of “evil.” *Of course* many of them have convictions and ideas behind their deeds, and we should pay attention to this, as it’s often true that people act out when they feel oppressed or brutally treated. But let’s not fool ourselves *too much* in that direction either. Sometimes people act brutally when they feel they’ve been treated brutally–when in fact they’re largely to blame for their own problems. Human beings are as ready to play the victim, often, as they ARE actual victims.”

    I’m not trying to call them victims, or trying to pass blame. I put the blame on them for their actions, no matter that they’d justify those actions by their own morality- exactly the same as I would judge anyone, on whatever side. That’s what I’m saying.

    “You are ignoring the fact that war is not just a crime, in itself, Hobolad–it is also the *punishment* of a crime. Oftentimes we claim the moral high ground because we are, in fact, the injured party. This is my problem with this kind of moral relativism. I understand it and even sympathize with it–it’s often true that one man’s crime is another man’s salvation. But it isn’t ALWAYS so, either.”

    One thing all of this supposed trawling through history books has done is identify people as their countries. When people say “Britain invaded wherever” or “Britain beaten whatever prisoner to death” I don’t count the civilians of Britain as any more responsible than the civilians of the injured party. They’re just people with no say in anything, with no knowledge even of much that goes on and I’m the same. I’m not “Britain”- I just live there, and I wouldn’t confuse foreigners as being responsible for their countries misdeeds either.

    “Hardly. It’s easy to succumb to that way of thinking–in part because it carries some truth in it. But it is not *wholly* true… and I would ask you then–why do you live in a society with laws and police to back them up? Isn’t a criminal’s point of view as valid as yours? Yet you have the police to protect you, and courts? If you mean to live by this conviction you’re speaking out for, Hobolad, then I find hypocrisy in your words. Drop out of modern society, then. It’s the only way to really live by the things you’re saying.”

    Yes, a criminals point of view on morality is as valid. As is society’s. I wouldn’t class criminal justice as a *moral* issue, however. It’s about what’s convenient and useful for society. Crime and morality cross over, but they aren’t the same. I’m no law expert, but morality is subjective- the law isn’t (unless you’ve money). Murder is murder, and it’s considered unlawful- no kind of justification can see the murder of an innocent in a positive light. At the very best it’s necessary for a cause, in all cases.

    And why would I need to drop out of modern society? I don’t plan on killing civilians if I stay, so… what?

    “This IS true. But does that mean neither side was right? If so, then you’re saying you would have been fine with the Axis winning the war. Is that the case? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.”

    I don’t tend to think in such black and white terms. I’m glad the allies won, I even see them as “in the right”. I don’t deify it to “good versus evil”. It was side versus side, with an allied win securing a better situation for myself, and probably most. But they did some pretty despicable things to do so, which I acknowledge may have been necessary- it doesn’t make it moral.

    “Not so, Hobolad, and that’s where you slip into cant. Granted, there’s a fine line of distinction between the soldier and civilian–but it’s a fine one. This is why war is to be avoided, and why we don’t simply breed professional soldiers to fight our wars for us, who serve no other purpose. Soldier or not, we’re all human beings, and it works both ways–if the soldier is to die, then the civilian faces much the same risk, in war. It isn’t nice, or pleasant, but it is reality.”

    Does that make it morally justifiable? I don’t believe so as like I’ve said, the ends don’t justify the means. I don’t condone the killing of soldiers- in the case of a draft the distinction is further blurred, but I don’t elevate their killing to the status of Morally Good merely because it’s necessary.

  • logar

    Hobo-
    I’m f-ing sick of your half-assed justifications for 9/11. Why don’t you come out and say it? You think America deserved what it got, don’t you?

    Either you condemn it or support it. Which is it?

    There is no such thing as a moral high-ground, you dolt. No nation is innocent. Every nation has always and will always try to assert its will upon other nations.

    Randall has already torn you down much better than I could have regarding WWII. There is no comparison between what the US did back then, and what is happening now. Osama was and is not a sovereign nation with whom we are at war- he’s merely a religious nutcase trying to bend the WORLD to his will who flew airplanes into a couple buildings (and a field) to give a message to the United States to stop opposing him.

    Ahhhhh… You think that if the US had just laid down it’s arms years ago, apologized, and tried to keep from influencing the region, we wouldn’t have anything to worry about. Riiiight.

    To sum it up: When you say this- “Bin Laden I won’t defend, his actions are abhorrent. *But* how is it any different from the actions of those hunting him? Or the actions of our own countries past and present?” You’ve just defended him and his ilk. You qualify your unqualified abhorrence.

    The *real* world is not black and white, princess. It’s grey. I like to think that for the most part, the US and it’s ideals are on the lighter shade of the spectrum. Where does bin-Laden fall?

    You, sir, are RETARTED.

  • Hobolad

    “Hobo-
    I’m f-ing sick of your half-assed justifications for 9/11. Why don’t you come out and say it? You think America deserved what it got, don’t you?”

    No.

    “Either you condemn it or support it. Which is it?”

    Condemn.

    “There is no such thing as a moral high-ground, you dolt. No nation is innocent. Every nation has always and will always try to assert its will upon other nations.”

    Exactly my point.

    “Randall has already torn you down much better than I could have regarding WWII. There is no comparison between what the US did back then, and what is happening now. Osama was and is not a sovereign nation with whom we are at war- he’s merely a religious nutcase trying to bend the WORLD to his will who flew airplanes into a couple buildings (and a field) to give a message to the United States to stop opposing him.”

    The comparison is that civilians died in both cases. In both cases because of what someone/some people deemed moral. I would judge 9/11 an immoral action- Bin Laden and his supporters would see it differently- they’d see it as a means to a moral end (by their morality).

    “Ahhhhh… You think that if the US had just laid down it’s arms years ago, apologized, and tried to keep from influencing the region, we wouldn’t have anything to worry about. Riiiight.”

    The US and it’s allies aren’t completely blameless, they aren’t the sole bearers of blame either.

    “To sum it up: When you say this- “Bin Laden I won’t defend, his actions are abhorrent. *But* how is it any different from the actions of those hunting him? Or the actions of our own countries past and present?” You’ve just defended him and his ilk. You qualify your unqualified abhorrence.”

    That’s not defence of any kind. He acted on his morality, which I disagree with, we act on our morality, which others disagree with. An immoral action is not justified by a moral intention, as morals are subjective.

    “The *real* world is not black and white, princess. It’s grey. I like to think that for the most part, the US and it’s ideals are on the lighter shade of the spectrum. Where does bin-Laden fall?”

    Bin Laden would say Bin Laden falls in the lighter shade and the US in the darker. I wouldn’t, but he would. Morality is subjective.

  • Hobolad

    A Bergman film is on in a minute, gonna have to say toodle-oo for now.

  • logar

    Hobolad, you need to descend from your cloud and start thinking about what YOU feel is right, and what YOU feel is wrong.

    I get it. You think morality is subjective. bin-Laden thinks he’s fighting for a just cause. The US kinda brought it on themselves, kinda not. We think one way, they think another. The winner writes the history books. Blah blah. Killing a civilian is killing a civilian- apples to apples. We should all just get along.

    Ok… So if bin-Laden is a terrorist, then we are all terrorists. Fair enough. Let’s drop all pretense and simply say that Bin-Laden is a douche bag leader of a bunch of other douche bags that threaten me and my way of life, and he should be hunted down like the dog he is. I don’t care what he thinks of my morality, and you shouldn’t either, unless you want his thrust upon you on the wings of a jumbo-jet. He is a criminal and a murderer by any mine and my countrymen’s moral standards, as well as most of the rest of the world. He is not a nation, Hobolad, and he should not be looked at in that light.

    Back to the actual topic at hand, I most definitely think he deserves #1 on the list, and am currently considering getting a petition together to send Rambo into Af/Pak to bring him to justice. But what is justice, other than one groups values opposing anothers, who have a right to their own. Bullocks!

  • Matt

    FYI…Jack Nicholson’s character in The Departed is based on James Bulger.

  • Cedestra

    Whitey Bulger is actually related to a former mayor of Boston (brothers).
    What were the criteria used to make this a top 10 list?
    bushdick: Osama bin Laden is fleeing persecution from the U.S.- whether you believe it’s justified or not, he is a fugitive and he is wanted. Purely on semantics, you’re wrong.
    No need to go further.
    Barring the typos and run-on sentences, I enjoyed this list.

  • Cedestra

    goofball: I was thinking, with a little time and patience, you could be a millionaire! If only I had superpowers…

  • Hobolad

    “Hobolad, you need to descend from your cloud and start thinking about what YOU feel is right, and what YOU feel is wrong.”

    I do act that way, that’s why I take issue with actions incompatible with my own morality being justified with “good intentions”. That leaves the door open to anything, it leaves the door open for the torture and murder of prisoners detained without trial for example. I’m not trying to place Bin Laden’s immoral actions on the same level as our own, I’m trying to place our own immoral actions on the same level as his. If I was in Afghanistan and the US took the place of Bin Laden in this discussion, and vice versa, I’d make the same argument but the other way round.

    “Ok… So if bin-Laden is a terrorist, then we are all terrorists. Fair enough. Let’s drop all pretense and simply say that Bin-Laden is a douche bag leader of a bunch of other douche bags that threaten me and my way of life, and he should be hunted down like the dog he is. I don’t care what he thinks of my morality, and you shouldn’t either, unless you want his thrust upon you on the wings of a jumbo-jet. He is a criminal and a murderer by any mine and my countrymen’s moral standards, as well as most of the rest of the world. He is not a nation, Hobolad, and he should not be looked at in that light.”

    I’m pretty sure the innocents killed by us as a means to an end take issue with that, too. Had the US’s “Operation Northwoods” plan been put into action, it could be justifiable as a means to an end- I can’t think of many (outside the 50’s/60’s US military) who’d justify that. I don’t really see what being a nation has to do with it, though- the act would be the same.

    I don’t think we’re all terrorists, though- a person isn’t responsible for the actions of their leaders or their country. A person is a person, y’know?

    There was a break in the film :D Back on now, see ya’ll.

  • logar

    Hobolad,

    Thankfully, not everyone feels the same as you do you regarding the actions of their country.

    Many here in America would feel the direct opposite. That is why I am deeply ashamed of *our* alleged torturing of prisoners- trials, charges, or no. That is also why I use my vote to attempt to get a government in place that reflects my opinions. Idealistic, no? It’s what we got, and it’s better than most places. There are probably dozens of other offenses that would I would be ashamed of, if I was aware of them. But I take ownership of our flaws, and try to correct them. And so does the majority of this Country.

    Now, a democratically elected government is one thing, a dictatorship or a monarchy is another.. Or is it? A despot only has as much power as the masses allow him to have, either through their actions or inactions.

    If the Afghanistanis have problem with the US invading their country, tough shit. The leadership cooperated with and harbored Bin-Laden, and refused to hand him over when confronted with that fact. I don’t care if they think Bin-Laden was right for what he did or not, any more than they care about what I think. It’s a nasty little circle.

    Operation Northwoods? Are you Wiki-ing again? Bad boy! Why would you whip out something that the US *didn’t* do? Allegedly. Try using something that the US has done in recent times, pre-9/11. As far as I can tell, you skipped your modern American history class after mid-semester.

  • Wally

    Ahh Randall… “slamming people down” and “tearing people people apart”. A true hero for all of us. Your little sarcastic spins on the end hoping to appeal to all the other Nobel Laureates on this site (or a sad cry for their approval?).

    As George Eliot wrote “..like a cock who thought the sun had risen to hear him crow.”

    Some valid points you consistently make sir, but are you so unaware that your constant descent into aggressive bluster impresses few but the slack-jawed?

  • I have to say that the comments have been particularly amusing today :) Funny that that would be the case on such a serious list – but I guess that is the listverse way :)

    Oh – and I have made a note about the top 10 Robin Hoods – it is a good idea – feel free to email me suggestions on who you think should be on it.

  • munro

    the interesting thing is. these people who are running are living a life of lies, fear, and paranoia. thats not a life i’d want to live. as well i’m sure plenty of these fugitives feel at least partially terrible for the atrocities they’ve committed. i mean a 94 year old nazi doctor must realize by now that he has done wrong.
    really what is “justice” going to serve a man that has had to live with himself and his deeds for over sixty years. another year in prison? maybe the death penalty? most of his victims who survived are dead.
    just interesting to think what good “justice” does?

  • Diogenes

    to #107- i dont know munro. I think if he’s still living (94yrs) and has felt the guilt and “living a life of lies, fear, and paranoia” he would have pulled his own plug by now (only he knows). I dont think any of these guys think of themselves responsible for anything close to an “atrocity” (without ego or denial or “justification taking over).
    Unless backed in a tight corner and forced to look and recognize their darkest of dark-they are surviours on a different plane than most all of us. And invincibility, unfortunately, becomes a part of their pychological armour. But I don’t know. Just my thought reply.

    to #29 jfrater: Thanks, i’m touched. Hope you see that there is such a patron saint of which I mentioned, and I wasn’t pullin legs for pullin leg’s sake.

  • ****
    107. munro
    …i mean a 94 year old nazi doctor must realize by now that he has done wrong.
    ***
    **Oh? Most of the Nazi’s captured after 30, 40, more, still believed that what they did was right. Why would he be different?
    ***
    really what is “justice” going to serve a man that has had to live with himself and his deeds for over sixty years…
    ***
    **”Justice” is going to punish him for what he did to his helpless victims. “Justice” is going to give the families of his victims a modicum of relief, and him his share of fear.
    ***
    …most of his victims who survived are dead.
    just interesting to think what good “justice” does?
    **As I said above.

  • sol

    Hmnn Randall did you actually live through the WWII??
    I’m with Hobolad on this.
    We all never live through the eyes of the people in the period during WWII what makes you the right to say that the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki is the way to end the war?As far as I know there are two sides to a coin.
    We NEVER know what would have been if the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki did not happen at all.
    All you can conclude and say is all the IFs.
    “IF I’d taken that chance my life would have been better” Dont we all?
    We are not god to pass such judgement that we can say for sure this bombing was the absolute best solution to end all wars.You never know the other side did you?

    So what if you ARE well VERSE in this war history from those little books your garnered from across the spectrum…All I see is this books that you’ve gathered,are all that they want to let you see/read.Were you there to see the catastrophe?

    Hobolad just merely points out the most logical explaination of why he thinks that the bombing was inhumane because it killed thousands of INNOCENT lives.That is why humans are different from animals because we all have what is called COMPASSION.Do you not experience such feelings?

    Oh btw how is bush any different from osama bin laden?
    WHERE IS THESE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTIONS in iraq?????

  • wow – every list ends up in a religious debate or political debate! :)

  • MPW

    Nice list! I hope these guys are caught someday.

  • Peter Thunder

    i was watching the news dys ago and saw something abot doctor death. i was like “oh fuck not again” he is not the first nazi-related person who ends up hiding way south in chile or argentina, but the other ones were not major nazi chiefs.

  • Temian

    logar’s posts are extremely similar to Randall’s in structure, punctuation, verbiage, and insolence.
    logar also seems to be arguing Randall’s own points to Hobolad, Randall’s adversary for this list.
    and logar’s written to Hobolad how “Randall has already torn you down much better than I could have regarding WWII.”

    hmm… Something you don’t want to tell us, Randall?

  • Vera Lynn

    What no one has mentioned, and what I think is scary, is that in the past 2 American elections for president, there has been an ENORMOUS amount of grey as far as to who really won. The citizens no longer have control over who our elected leaders are. This is all being decided for us.

    Bucslim: I too laughed out loud. Very funny.
    Tempyra (56)Yes! I agree with whomever said Comment of the Year.

    Segue: Do you actually read Randall’s comments to find the meaning? Girl, you have too much time on your hands. I don’t have the patience. :)

    Randall: I think you’re right. They are the same person. I don’t often agree, but on this, yes.

  • bucslim

    sol – did you read the quote I took from wiki? The Japanese viewed the Potsdam peace terms with utter contempt and decided to fight to the bitter end. Just like on countless islands in the Pacific – they fought to the death to the last man.

    I had an Uncle on the St. Louis in the South Pacific. You are right in saying I didn’t live through it, but he did and would most certainly faced death a number of times. And for that I say thank God Truman ended the war! To ask those men to retake every single miniscule island fighting an enemy who considered it an act of worship to die for his emperor is just flat out dead wrong. My uncle, and countless other US uncles, dads and granddads are alive today because of that decision. And don’t forget that countless Japanese uncles, dads and granddads and women are alive because of that decision. I’m sure the people suffering in the Phillipines and China and other Japanese occupied territory would agree. As terrible as it may seem and as regrettable as it might be looking back with 21st century eyes, that was the right decision and I will argue that with anyone who says differently. You simply cannot negotiate with people who are trying to kill you, who refuse to lay down their arms and will fight till the last man is dead.

    The casual arrogance to sit here, today and argue the rightness or wrongness of that decision is appalling, shameful and insulting to the memory of those who died bravely fighting for their country on both sides. Y’all can sit on your soft little asses and type out the most meaningless crap because THOSE MEN DEFENDED YOUR RIGHT TO DO SO! It is our duty to honor our brave dead and hope for a time when such decisions don’t have to be made.

  • sol

    bucslim what about those innocent lives that died because of the bombing of hiroshima/nagasaki?
    How can you tell what the people under the japanese occupation faced during that period?
    I for one,never got a chance to know my grandad because he died during the japanese occupation.
    He was shot dead by the japanese army and accuse of being a traitor just because he was sheltering a british army personnel.

    I actually LIVE in asia and my country was britain’s worse defeat in history.It fell to the japanese occupation in
    just 6days during the war.
    My grandma lived and spoke of the terror and she never fail to shed a tear everytime she spoke of my grandad(god bless his soul).

    She kept the family alive by growing sweet potatoes and yam.

    I wasnt born to witness all this but my grandma told me of the monstrosity through her very own eyes.

    If you ask me am I angry at the japanese?
    hell YES i am very angry.
    But my hatred was only towards the japanese army who acts like beast during WWII.
    I am all for the end of war but those who actually suffered were the innocent civilians, who had no guns nor bombs to
    protect themselves.Who were just powerless in defending themselves.

    To say that it is right for the bombing to happen to end the war just so we are better off now is downright selfish.
    We all knew that this was at the expense of the innocent japanese women and children who never lived to see their grandchildren just as what my grandad never did.
    What makes it any better??
    Point is that,we should all have a little more compassion for those that suffered be it the japanese or the middle
    east.Because ultimately killing innocent lives can never really justify these tragedy were merely what needed to be done.

  • chunkylover77

    Hobolad and Randall
    Please give it a rest. If you two need to really hash it out,then open your own forum. My great-uncle was 19 years old when he was killed by a Japanese sniper in the Philippines,he was part of MacArthur’s invasion force. The Japanese mainland was next and they were going to fight tooth and nail to the end. There was also one last bombing raid done after the A bombs, and the Japanese Army was trying to usurp the Emperor’s power because he wanted to surrender and they did not. That was a war started by greedy, delusional men who wanted more power , that seems to be the basis for most wars.
    Randall seems to understand WWII a little better than Hobolad, who needs to look at history without being so judgmental as to how the U.S. was the worst evil in the Pacific theater, or anywhere else.
    Sol I may not agree with you or Hobolad on everything, but I will state that bush( he doesn’t deserve caps) was so far the worst thing to happen to the U.S. and the world, I don’t ever recall bin laden making flat out lies.

  • chunkylover77

    Sol watch the documentary titled “White Light Black Rain” it is about the A bombs that were dropped, kind of took my breath away when the survivors are interviewed. So now, I get really pissed when ignorant rednecks, or anyone else for that matter, says we should “nuke ’em” when we get into an armed conflict. The aftermath is the worst part.

  • sol

    Chunkylover77,I havent seen that documentary but I will keep a lookout for that thanks for the info :)
    And I couldnt agree more on the aftermath.

  • Tomo

    When an innocent person dies, it is wrong whether it’s in Hiroshima or New York or Baghdad. You cannot differentiate it by saying one is a tragedy and the other an act of terrorism. Both acts resulted in the same thing, innocent deaths.

    We went to Iraq under the pretext of a pre-emptive strike, to find and destroy WMDs. What a load of crap! How many innocent people have we killed? Is that a tragedy or an act of terror?

    The ‘RETARTED’ comments are hilarious!!

    I was so hungry that I RETARTED until the bakery was out!

  • Randall

    Chunkylover:

    Thank you. As it happens, my father was a decorated bomber pilot in WWII in the Army Air Corps–in combat naturally. He served in New Guinea and the Phillippines. I had two uncles in the army, both of whom served in combat in the Pacific in the island campaigns. I had two other uncles who served in the Navy, again in combat operations in the Pacific, and one other uncle who was a lieutenant in the army in the ETO, who led a combat platoon. I believe he was at D-Day, from what I was told, but at any rate survived all the way to the occupation of Germany… I have photographs he sent to my father showing the village in Germany where his group was billeted at war’s end. Fortunately my father and all my uncles survived the war despite all of them being there in the thick of it… sadly the uncle who’d served in Europe later re-upped to fight in Korea, and was killed there. I’m very sorry about your great-uncle. I wish none of it had ever happened.

    My father and my uncles all detested war on account of their experiences. But as I’ve said here before, I know that it’s quite likely that the atomic bomb saved their lives, as it saved the lives of countless other Americans, British, Dutch, Chinese, Russians and Japanese who would have died on the shores of Japan fighting that last, horrific battle. Yes, some 200,000 – 300,000 people–soldiers, seamen and civilians–died in those two cities–but there’s every evidence that this spared the lives of at least as many soldiers and civilians on both sides, and quite likely many more.

    I don’t pretend and have never pretended that this was a “judicious” or happy bargain. It was horrible. It’s the kind of thing that should never be allowed to happen again. I simply try to be grown up about it, as I know, from being the son of a combat veteran, that that war forced those kinds of choices, and therefore is the reason it should be looked back on as surely the worst tragedy mankind has ever coped with.

    What offends me is the heap of cant, childish moralizing and historical distortion and revisionism that has grown up around the bombings. I’ve presented clear evidence in arguments before that there was no way of knowing what the Japanese were going to do, and that there was every indication that they meant to fight on until they were overwhelmed. Evidence to the contrary, on the other hand, has always been tenuous and flimsy and based on *suppositions* and assumptions whose validity is totally unknown. Someone mentioned that the question has never been settled, but that I act like it has. Well both are true. But to me the mere fact that some people, including scholars, continue to argue out this event in history is not proof that one side or the other is right. As Paul Fussell noted several years ago, it always seems to be the people who were NOT there, who did NOT fight in combat or did not have a relative who fought in combat, who hold the view that the atomic bombings were “evil” and “terrorist acts.” Whereas those who WERE there, in combat–common soldiers and seamen and many officers as well–or, like myself, the child of a combat veteran–these people see, instead, not an act of evil but the closing act of a horrible tragedy. The one point of view is ridden with naive moralizing, the other tinged with tragic irony. To me the latter is closer to what life is really all about.

  • Randall

    Temian;

    Jfrater (Jamie) can testify to the fact that “logar” and I are not the same person–I do not post here under any other guises than my own. Period.

  • I will vouch for Randall – he always posts as Randall and nothing else.

  • Hey Randall,

    Idle curiosity: what part of New Guinea did you father serve in? My father and grandfather (a MAF pilot) spent a fair bit of time in PNG, mostly the highlands.

  • Randall

    Tempyra:

    I wish I knew more details about my dad’s service. My older brothers may know, but we don’t usually talk about this stuff. I only found out a few years ago that my dad flew a B-25, in fact, and that he was one of the so-called “Kenney’s Kids” in what I believe was the 5th Air Force… (at least, this is the info I have) up until then I’d only known that he was a bomber pilot in the Pacific, and I knew where he’d served. For god’s sake, I only just found out a year ago that he had a collection of sports cars… my sister didn’t even know this, and she’s ten years older than me. She just didn’t remember it.

    See, my dad died of cancer in 1965, when I was just a few months old. So I never knew him. From what I was told he never talked about his war experiences anyway. My mother didn’t meet him until after the war, so her knowledge of his service was sketchy at best. Much of what I heard about his war service came from others in the family. I only know that he was based in New Guinea, participated in bombings of Japanese bases in the region, and in bombings of Japanese shipping. Quite likely he flew one of the modified B-25s that did the “skipjack” bombing of Japanese ships–diving the twin-engined bomber like a dive bomber, with modified cannons in the nose… in order to drop bombs that then skipped on the water and exploded against the side of Japanese ships. I assume he was one of those pilots because of some things my uncles said… also, later in life he was a cropduster–hardly proof, but those guys kind of fly like that, if you ever see them–like they were flying fighter planes. My dad *didn’t* fly a fighter… but it kind of made me wonder why a bomber pilot would end up flying kind of *like* a fighter pilot. So maybe he was a skipjack bomber. I don’t really know for sure.

    I know that later he was stationed in the Phillippines, and I’ve seen his army record for his decorations in both campaigns. Sadly, that’s all I know.

  • Randall,

    That’s sad that you never had the chance to get to know your dad (in person I mean).

    My other grandfather (not the pilot) lived through WWI and II, but never really talked about it to anyone. It’s kinda frustrating that the people involved in such major events find it too traumatic (or mundane, who knows?) to talk about their personal experiences with their family.

    The grandfather who was a pilot in PNG for the Missionary Aviation Fellowship (after the war, during the 50s/60s) flew missionaries all over the country. He was based in Mt. Hagen and Wewak and flew small planes, which I can’t remember the names of right now, annoyingly. I’ve seen photos of him flying seaplanes too (a Catalina I think?). After moving back to New Zealand he did a lot of crop dusting and flew gliders for fun. He used to fly his microlight as well until not long before he died last year.

  • Randall

    Tempyra:

    Your grandfather (the pilot) sounds cool. I missed that about my dad, having the pilot thing in my life–we had books on aviation and aviation paraphernalia all around the house when I was a kid… but I never got to know my dad’s pilot buddies. It’s a different kind of life those guys lead. The closest I’ve found to it is with sailing.

    I have some photos that belonged to my dad, I believe all from New Guinea. One shows a stretch of beach with palm trees–another part of the base partly flooded–all this muddy water up to the ankles, and tents and such under these enormous palms… and then a photo of what I take to be a couple of my dad’s crew, along with some others, posed on a jeep…. and on the back there’s written something like so-and-so (I don’t remember the names) with so-and-so the Canuck, a Dutch liaison officer and “Dutchess, the Jeep.”

    That’s about it.

    For the guys in combat, they usually didn’t want to talk because of the trauma. I remember my brother trying to coax stories out of my uncle on several occasions… he never wanted to open up. Then finally near the end of his life he did. Horrible stuff, he described. You can well imagine.

  • Randall

    sol:

    Let’s clear something up…

    I am not *defending* the use of the atom bomb, per se. We might say, more accurately, that I am explaining them. It *was* inhumane, sol. War itself is inhumane. That war (WWII) was particularly inhumane.

    The only thing I can tell you is that the people who fought that war and lived through it–soldiers AND civilians on both sides–understood that it was a “Total War,” and it was NOT for no reason at all that a military directive went out during the preparations for the invasion of Japan to the effect that “there are no civilians in Japan.” It was well known that the Japanese people held fanatical devotion to their emperor, and that they had had inculcated into them the belief that their only lot in life was to die for him if need be. Surrender was unthinkable to the Japanese mind, and the average Japanese, it was understood, could not even imagine it. Moreover, the Japanese military itself had issued orders for the arming of all able-bodied citizens of a wide age range, and of both sexes, and that these “civilians” were expected–*expected*–to meet the enemy at the beaches. At least one Japanese general or admiral said that he expected the Japanese nation to die to defend the Emperor, to the last man, woman and child… and it was Suzuki, the Prime Minister who has been revisionistly-painted as a “peacenik” (he was anything but) who actually said that he would sooner die defending his Emperor than ever surrender–and if he did so die, he “expected the 100 million souls of the Empire to stand before my prostrate body and die as well, defending His Majesty.”

    These are only a couple examples of the Japanese mindset that caused American military planners to believe that A) the Japanese were very unlikely to ever surrender and B) that an invasion would therefore be necessary–and that it would be an unmitigated bloodbath the likes of which mankind had never seen.

    Some may say that no one KNEW that this was certain to be the case. But again, such people speak from the benefit of hindsight. Such hindsight was not given to Harry Truman and his military staff, however. They could only operate on what they knew about the Japanese, and weigh the cost to all the human beings engaged in that terrible conflict. Japanese cities were already being destroyed from the air by conventional bombs–so the use of the atomic bomb seemed, to them, a natural extension of policy, and if shocking enough, perhaps a way to startle the Japanese into giving up before the bloodletting of an invasion would have to be necessary.

    In addition, Japanese military production was not limited to factories and such–it was entwined throughout their cities in cottage industries–home assembly centers–that made it difficult and in many cases virtually impossible to pick out military targets from non-military.

    The people who planned these attacks had one basic theory in mind, and it had operated in the campaign against Germany as well as against Japan: you are fighting a war. Your enemy has an extensive capability to wage that war, and it will require a long, protracted period to grind him down militarily to the point where he is certain to lose. During this period, thousands upon thousands will die fighting on both sides. And then, because you are dealing with a fanatical enemy, even when it is certain that he cannot win, there is every evidence that he will STILL not give up. Which means you will not only have to beat him in the field, but actually enter his land and occupy him, and FORCE him to submit. The number of deaths and the length of time this would take rises significantly as a result.
    Imagine, for instance, if we had not bombed German cities during the war, in order to destroy their factories and means of moving war materiel about. Imagine how much longer and bloodier the campaign against Germany would have been.

    So it was with Japan. Yes, you can find a few military men–largely ground based, army officers and some navy, steeped in the old way of doing things–who believed the atom bomb was “unnecessary” and so on. But that’s just it… in most cases these are the same men who believed it was unproductive to bomb military production sites from the air at all—they believed it wouldn’t really end a war any quicker. But no one today doubts that what helped bring Germany to its knees was the uninterrupted bombing campaign against German military production. Back then many traditional military minds couldn’t conceive of such a thing *really* working–just as twenty years before they could not conceive of aircraft being able to sink battleships. But they could and did, and the bombing campaigns against military production DID work.

    These men faced the same problem with Japan, then. The Japanese gave every indication of being utterly unwilling to give up. The only terms under which they would even consider a cessation of hostilities would have left them in advantageous positions in Asia and the Pacific which would have rendered the war a pointless waste and would have allowed them to rebuild and fight again in due course. (Not to mention the continued occupation of parts of China and other parts of Asia). This was unthinkable and sheer madness from an Allied point of view. So what was to be done? Invade, and run the risk of allowing the war to grind on another year or more? It was projected that the war would not then conclude until November, 1946, when it was assumed the Japanese would finally be worn down. In that time it was projected that there could be over a million casualties.

    Do you make that choice? Or do you step up the bombing campaign that was attempting to destroy the Japanese ability to *make* war.. and, yes, demoralize the Japanese people–by resorting to a new, inhuman bomb which just might *shock* the Japanese into giving up?

    There are “supposes” and “ifs” and “what-ifs” and “maybes” on all sides of this argument. But one thing was sure–the bombs might very well end the war quickly and decisively. Horrific as that was… godawfully terrible as it was… as bloody-minded as it was… a chance to end the war quickly rather than run the risk of it grinding on indefinitely, was taken.

    I don’t dispute that it was a terrible thing and horribly inhuman. But it was the sensible, and in a twisted sense, the “right” decision.

    Hate has nothing to do with it… not for me at least. I am partly of German descent myself… but I have only ever felt that it was a pity… a pity… that the bomb was not ready in time to drop on Germany. A bomb that would have wiped out the German hierarchy, dropped on the center of power in Berlin, or Berchtesgaden, that would have killed Hitler and all his cronies–would certainly have shortened that war and saved god knows how many lives–not just soldiers and civilians, but people in the death camps as well. It’s a godawful thing to say, and I don’t enjoy saying it. But how much better it would have been if Germany had been defeated thusly in 1944 or earlier, rather than having to wait until May, 1945. I can only think of the people who would have lived who ended up not having that chance.

  • Phil

    for fucks sake

  • Phil

    F.F.S!

  • Phil

    Doubt you could fit all that on a tshirt

  • ****
    115. Vera Lynn
    What no one has mentioned, and what I think is scary, is that in the past 2 American elections for president, there has been an ENORMOUS amount of grey as far as to who really won. The citizens no longer have control over who our elected leaders are. This is all being decided for us.
    Segue: Do you actually read Randall’s comments to find the meaning? Girl, you have too much time on your hands. I don’t have the patience.
    ****
    Vera Lynn
    It *IS* scary, but it hasn’t been just the past two elections. Go back through a history of Presidential elections one day. Compare the popular vote with the electoral college and find out just how many times the people have actually elected a President! It’ll make your hair stand on end.
    What everyone forgets…and our leaders reinforce our forgetting…is that our form of government is a Republic, closer to a Democratic Republic, *NOT* a Democracy. *We* don’t elect the President. We haven’t since somewhere around Adams…I’d look it up to be sure, but I’m still abed due to a really bad few days…week…and I’m just barely recovering, with the creation of the electoral college. Since then, we only elect people who “say” they are going to vote for so-and-so, but they are free to change their minds.
    It’s a fucked up system, if you ask me. (Pardon my swearing, but sometimes, a little Anglo-Saxon is the only way to go).
    Re: reading Randall. I have this weird ability to speed skim read, and yet retain (usually) what I’m reading. With Randall, and a few others, that’s what I’ll do. When something strikes me as important, I read that bit at normal speed, then back to speed skim.
    Takes no time at all.
    Something I find amusing… my 109. response to 107. munro elicited exactly 0 response. I take this to mean only one thing: I was so spot on, there was nothing to say!
    BTW, VL, how are you?

  • ****
    129. Randall
    ……. At least one Japanese general or admiral said that he expected the Japanese nation to die to defend the Emperor, to the last man, woman and child……and so on
    ****
    Randall, my father was part of the American forces occupying Japan *IMMEDIATELY* following the surrender. His stories of the Japanese civilians were stories of lovely, polite, civil people, who harbored no animosity toward the Americans or Allied troops. Quite the opposite, they seemed to see the Japanese government and military as the direct cause of the suffering of their people.
    There is usually a wide schism between published propaganda parading as history, and the truth. With your keen mind, I’m stunned you didn’t doubt the source materials, keeping the situation in mind.

  • kris

    there so many bad people out there and many many more are not identified…. after these serial Bomb blasts in India ..my dad has finally decided that we might leave India even before April… IOW is and always be a peaceful place to live… ummm hopefully as my grand dad says no where is safe

    can some one make list on safer or safest place in the world to live?

  • lomez

    #135 – I’m pretty sure Japan is usually rated as the safest country to live in, but I’ll tell you this, I have no fear walking through even the worst neighborhoods in Toronto, Canada. At night too.

  • logar

    While I actually take being compared to Randall as a compliment, he makes much more sense than I, verbose or not.

    I assure you, he ain’t me.

  • logar

    Kris: Stay away from the USA- we’re all no better than terrorists. A murder on every street corner. The odd firebomb every now and then. Weren’t we #1 on that list, for a little while at least?

  • Vera Lynn

    Lisa Ling said (and I heard this with my own 2 ears) that she could ride her bike through Shanghai w/o any sense of danger. That what the people lose in freedom, gives them another sort of freedom.

    I have never forgotten that.

    I will also NEVER forget the sound people make when they hit the pavement. That was one of the hardest things for me to deal with: the choice. I tried and tried to make myself forget. I cannot.

    I cannot.

  • Vera Lynn

    I left out “at 4 in the morning.”

    Typically here in the states, no woman is safe out alone at 4 in the morning. I know that in Chicago, I am not. I would be a target. Immediately.

  • “I will also NEVER forget the sound people make when they hit the pavement.”

    I know that sound also, wish I didn’t.

  • Good Wolf

    I might point out about Bin ladin and the 9/11 attacks; The only evidence pointing to bin ladin was a video allegedly found in Iraq featuring Bin Ladin confessing. Trouble is that the guy in the video is right handed, which Bin is not and It doesn’t even look like Bin Ladin.
    Also surveys show that up to 30% of US citizens believe that the government ether let the attacks happen or did it themselves.

    History shows countless examples of false-flag operations done in order to manipulate the populace. It’s not in conceivable that Bin Ladin is not responsible.

  • chris

    I was in New York when 9/11 happened and always thought it a little strange that within a few minutes of the second tower being hit news reports were attributing the attacks to Bin Laden, without any correlating evidence at the time to back it up. It just felt a little too convenient to be pinning the blame on someone before the events had fully played out.

  • Good Wolf

    Really? Wow!. Being a New Zealander, I wasn’t around or even aware of the early reports. I think that Bin Ladin is a scapegoat for these matters. I’m also going to put my ass on the line and state my belief that the 9/11 attacks where an inside job and I would side with the ‘9/11 Truth Movement’ if I were a US cit.

  • Good Wolf

    Actually I think this would be a good topic for a ‘your view’ discussion.

  • Good Wolf

    Here are some polls with Americans about the 9/11 attacks:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_opinion_polls

  • CRSN

    Great List, but i’m not really going to bother to comment from reading some that have been posted and if i do comment, it wont be about the list (sorry jfrater, i know that it’d be off topic), some of the stuff written by a particular commentor about the justification of the 9/11 attacks is just utter bullshit and i’d like to take it up on a more personal level with the little fucker.

    Tempyra and Randall – About the serving in PNG during WWII, were any of your relatives working with the Engineers putting all the roads and bridges through PNG during that time?, my Grandfather (although an Australian citizen at the time) was serving with the English as one of the head Architects designing the road system.

  • CRSN

    Ooops! that should have said in the last sentence “serving for the English as a liason officer between the American Engineers and the PNG”.

    Also, if anyone is wondering how an Aussie would be serving for the English, i think it had to do with the fact that my Grandfather was originally from Ireland.

  • CRSN: My grandfather and his family were there after WWII, in the 50s/60s. He may have known of the English and Australian engineers who worked there but I don’t recall him mentioning any in particular sorry.

    :-)

  • k1w1taxi

    Hobolad (53)
    When Bin Laden kills innocents, it’s *evil* right? When we kill innocents, it’s a means to an end. We think we’re allowed, but we’re just the same.

    I mean, take Hiroshima & Nagasaki for instance- the largest loss of life by terrorist action (if I’m not mistaken). You can say we murdered all those innocents as a means to an end, so it’s okay. But isn’t Bin Laden doing exactly the same thing- killing as a means to an end?

    Major difference between The Bomb and 9/11 is that the Bombs were arrived at as the most VIABLE means to achieve a specific outcome (as per the various options already pointed out).

    What possible VIABLE, SPECIFIC outcome could have advanced Bin Laden’s (or whichever Terrorist you want to deem responsible) cause from 9/11?

    Cheers
    Lee

  • sue

    Great list Tamala!

  • Hobolad

    “Now, a democratically elected government is one thing, a dictatorship or a monarchy is another.. Or is it? A despot only has as much power as the masses allow him to have, either through their actions or inactions.”

    I disagree, democracy, democratic republic, monarchy, dictatorship, whatever- the people in the street have no say in anything, and they’re the one that end up getting killed.

    “If the Afghanistanis have problem with the US invading their country, tough shit. The leadership cooperated with and harbored Bin-Laden, and refused to hand him over when confronted with that fact. I don’t care if they think Bin-Laden was right for what he did or not, any more than they care about what I think. It’s a nasty little circle.”

    The *leadership*. Not the people. I would personally feel a bit miffed if I one day got bombed to bits because of some injustice committed by the leadership that, even if I knew of it, I wouldn’t be able to change.

    “Operation Northwoods? Are you Wiki-ing again? Bad boy! Why would you whip out something that the US *didn’t* do? Allegedly. Try using something that the US has done in recent times, pre-9/11. As far as I can tell, you skipped your modern American history class after mid-semester.”

    It was on another listverse list- I used it as an example because of the idea that foreigners are guilty of the crimes of their leadership, and their killing would be morally justified. People are horrified by the idea of Northwoods and the like, because it’s the leadership targeting it’s own civilians (well, planning to).

    I wanted to make the comparison that the civilians that would be killed in Northwoods are no different to the foreign civilians killed.

    I’ll get round to everyone’s comments, quite a lot since my last visit :)

  • kiwiboi

    I was in New York when 9/11 happened and always thought it a little strange that within a few minutes of the second tower being hit news reports were attributing the attacks to Bin Laden, without any correlating evidence at the time to back it up. It just felt a little too convenient to be pinning the blame on someone before the events had fully played out.

    chris – I’m not so sure. As soon as the second plane hit the towers I said to my wife that I wouldn’t be at all surprised if “that guy bin Laden” was behind it. I had been a director of a bank in London during the preceding 10 years and we received regular “FBI Most-Wanted” types of security-notifications. Even based on my cursory reading of these things, his name was the first to pop into my head – yet, at that stage, virtually nobody (ie. Joe Public) had heard of the guy.

    So, I’m not at all surprised that the knowledgeable “experts” conjectured so quickly that bin Laden was probably behind it…

  • Hobolad

    “Hobolad and Randall
    Please give it a rest. If you two need to really hash it out,then open your own forum. My great-uncle was 19 years old when he was killed by a Japanese sniper in the Philippines,he was part of MacArthur’s invasion force. The Japanese mainland was next and they were going to fight tooth and nail to the end. There was also one last bombing raid done after the A bombs, and the Japanese Army was trying to usurp the Emperor’s power because he wanted to surrender and they did not. That was a war started by greedy, delusional men who wanted more power , that seems to be the basis for most wars.
    Randall seems to understand WWII a little better than Hobolad, who needs to look at history without being so judgmental as to how the U.S. was the worst evil in the Pacific theater, or anywhere else.”

    That’s not what I’m trying to say- I don’t think that the US was the worst evil or anything like that. I just don’t think that actions like the killing of innocents should ever be classified as morally good, necessary or not. Judge Hiroshima/Nagasaki as a necessary, sure- but to then claim it to be a moral action because of its necessity is just too Machiavellian.

    That’s not in any way disrespecting (or at least, I don’t mean to disrespect) the soldiers and the people who lived through those times. It’s just that when a necessary but immoral act is rationalised and ends up celebrated as something morally good it sets a bad precedent. Kinda like in City of God- first the moral rule is kept, second there’s a necessary exception, third the exception becomes the rule.

    “some of the stuff written by a particular commentor about the justification of the 9/11 attacks is just utter bullshit and i’d like to take it up on a more personal level with the little fucker.”

    I’m not justifying it, quite the opposite- I’m using it as an example that no killing of innocents should ever be seen as a moral act- that while we may justify our own misdeeds by saying they’re necessary for a cause, Bin Laden would see his own misdeeds as necessary for a cause.

    You’re right that I should probably just shut up, though :) It’s got off topic (alright, my fault :))

  • Randall

    Hobolad:

    One quick thing because I’m short on time at the moment…

    Please do not make the mistake of assuming that I “celebrate” the atom bombs as something morally good. I do not. They were horrible expediencies. All war and everything that happens in war is, in a sense, immoral.

    I simply am opposed to this cant that people resort to, calling the atom bombs an act of “terrorism” and so forth.

    One other quick thing… I note that you repeatedly assert that the common people have no voice in what goes on in the world around them. This is somewhat true and is often said. But I further note that you are not an American. I’m not sure if you’re a Brit or European, or what… but it does seem to be the nature of the Euro mind that they continue to believe, as they have always believed, that the common man/woman is powerless. This is not so. Call Americans naive for believing thusly, but it’s one of the quirks of the American mind and has been ever since we got here. Now maybe we really are just powerless. But I don’t think so. NEARLY powerless, perhaps… but I’m not even sure I fully believe *that.*

    Sadly, that sense of futility has started to invade the American mind more and more over the last few decades… I suppose it’s a result of the Cold War and Watergate and so forth. I hope it never fully takes us over. It’s one of the few things about the American mind that makes us different. You’re never powerless. There’s always something you can do.

  • trojan_man

    Hobolad:

    You said, “…democracy, democratic republic, monarchy, dictatorship, whatever- the people in the street have no say in anything…” Good lord, please don’t ever say that in front of Rosa Parks family (she was a person in the street), Jimmy Carter (peanut farmer), Bill Gates (college dropout), and the millions of others in the US who have had a direct hand in the policies made in this country and were “people in the street”.

  • Randall

    trojan_man:

    Yeah, see, good point. But that’s the difference between the American mindset and the Old World mindset. The Old World automatically assumes that people are powerless or that this or that can’t be done… and then sometimes they’re proven wrong. The New World mindset is that we DO have the power and that something CAN be done… and we believe *that* until proven wrong. Personally, as an American, I prefer our way.

    It’s also more “Euro” to buy into the moral relativism thing. Now as I say I think that view has some merit in it. But I think it can be taken entirely too far. I suppose the reason Americans don’t wholly go for it is because we’re taught from early on to *stand* for something–we don’t just cleave to freedom and individual rights and opportunity as principles and ideals–they were also deeply inherent in us even before we became a nation, and they’re what we’re taught we *became* a nation for. Doesn’t make us better, just different and maybe more focused on these things and gives us more faith (albeit maybe naive faith) in them. Whereas Britain has *tradition* invested in freedom and rights, they were actually woven into what we are, so in a way it goes even deeper. It’s a cultural thing in a way.

    Doesn’t exempt us from screwing it all up though and losing those freedoms and rights. We can ruin them ourselves. And this is where Hobolad has a point, although I think he’s just taking it too far. We need to be on guard against becoming powerless in the face of elites and oligarchies in our own country. We need to be responsible citizens of a democracy. The less we live up to that, the less of a democracy we have.

    Sorry… I’m preaching and speechmaking. All I mean to say is, I see where Hobolad’s coming from and I do think he has some good points.

    but on the other hand, I’m an American and so I still believe I have something to say and do about these matters.

    • Captain Carrot

      I read through all of this rubbish, so I have to comment now. Thanks.

      Randall, simply put, you’re letting your personal opinions about matters cloud what Hobolad is saying, as are the others. In matters of basic argument, he is right. Eliminate personal opinion, because it has no bearing on the pure, basic concept of his statement.

      It doesn’t matter who’s doing right, killing is immoral. End of story. It doesn’t matter what the circumstances, he didn’t say anything about circumstances. He didn’t say anything about reasonings why killing happened. Simply put, remove any other word or side thought. Remove the words Bin Laden, US, Hiroshima, etc. etc.

      He’s making a very simple statement. Killing is immoral. Which it is. Period.

      You can’t argue basics w/personal opinions and emotions. That is a whole different category altogether.

      Let’s try it this way. You can make the statement “stealing is bad”. Yes, yes it is. Of course, when you argue your personal feelings on the matter, you can say “but what if it’s a person who has no money and a small child who’s starving and he has to do it for the child’s (and his own) survival?” But the statement had nothing to do with circumstances or situations. All it said was “stealing is bad”, period, which is true.

      Can you possibly understand the concept now, or are you still so completely pig-headed that you think you can never be wrong? Because if that’s the case, I’m here to tell you, that you are.

  • Hobolad

    I guess we’re all on the same side in disliking these atrocities. My original point was that we shouldn’t let the misdeeds of people like these give us a free reign to do what we want to oppose them no matter who we hurt in the process- I’m not accusing anyone here of supporting that, that’s just the short of what I was trying to say in a fairly garbled way :)

    Maybe I’m a bit cynical about the systems we’ve got, but it seems that only a very few can affect stuff more than superficially. I dunno, it just seems that what we have is every now and then choosing a new figurehead based on promises they won’t keep out of a choice of two- kinda like those moral dilemma situations on listverse, where you *have* to choose between two options and then get the blame for choosing :)

  • trojan_man

    Hobolad: I do agree with most of what you are saying, but let me give you something to think about. In 1994, the nation of Rwanda went through a genocidal conflict. The United States stood by and went along with the UN (they said that “peacekeepers) were all that was required). The peacekeepers watched as hundreds of thousands of innocent people were killed. The US (along with UK, Aussies, Canada, Spain, France, etc.) could have easily gone in and saved many lives. These countries either did not fight hard enough to do so, didn’t care, or weren’t allowed to by UN agreements. That is a travesty. I would rather see the US play world police any time over what went on there. If you are going to be “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” wouldn’t you want to be damned with a clear conscience?

    Randall: Luckily, our forefathers gave us a system of government that lets us do something about it. However, they did not write in a “lazy clause” into the Constitution. I hate to hear people bitch about how bad they have it and then sit on their asses and do absolutely nothing.

  • kris

    138. logar – July 30th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    Logar, will keep that in mind… I think Isle of Wight (UK) is safer… Coz India is becoming a bad place too…

    I wonder what do these people get by doing bad things… aren’t scared if same thing might happen to their dear ones too…

    ————-

  • dustin

    the 94 year old nazi reminds me of that movie apt pupil. and in the top ten robin hoods ned kelley should definatly be on the list

  • Milen

    Im chilean, and here there’s a lot of hidden nazi criminals.
    In fact they formed a colony in the south of Chile, where they did genetic experiments, and helped to kill commies in the 70’s…

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  • Jim Jones

    BIN LADEN IZ DEADDDDDDDD OK SO IZ Dr Death Aribert Heim AND NO1 WILL EVER FIND Augustin Bizimana IM TELLING YOU FROM NOW

  • Good Wolf

    @ jim: Yea, I reckon you might be right.

  • Pingback: Ten Most Wanted Fugitives | micklanders()

  • choosilicious

    Urgh come on! Laden is his dad’s name. Osama is his name.

    Oh, by the way, an Indonesian criminal escaped from Singapore Detentiion centre thingy (highest guarded prison). His name is Mas Selamat, once attempted to bomb Singapore’s world class Changi International Airport. SGD$1 million (Singapore Dollars) is the reward, and he is expected to be hiding in the Riau Islands in Indonesia.

    Because of the big reward, many have turned out with people who look like Mas Selamat, and also those that did not look like him at all.

  • sylvain

    ooohhh there is a hot topic going on here …all i can say is
    that i feel a lots of hormones and egos in here and for me…
    NUMBER #5 ,NUMBER #4 ,NUMBER #2 and JACK THE RIPPER should be searched , found and prosecuted …JACK THE RIPPER should be somewhere in england ,he would be aprox ..124 y.o.
    OK now lets get serious …i think all the above named will get whats comming their way …NO DOUPTS !!!
    I think that evil gets bigger and bigger with our frustrations and he gets demolished with love and compassion.
    QUOTE: IGNORANCE IS THE CAUSE OF ALL MISERY…UNQUOTE
    another QUOTE:WE MAKE OUR REALITY ,THE WORLD IS WHAT WE THINK IT IS and ALL KNOWLEDGE ARE NOT TAUGHT IN THE SAME SCHOOL. BE AWARE…!!
    I dont say those quotes to preache in any way …!! i like
    quotes ,i think their easy to read and they are philosophical.I am simple and humble and would rather stay out of conflict and heated debates but if i would get my hands on one of those fuckers named up there i would probably
    KILL THEM VERY ,VERY ,VERY SSLLLOOWWWLLLYYY ….TRUST ME THEY
    WOULD SUFFER SO MUCH ,I THINK THEY WOULD RATHER WANT TO DIE FAST…$”$?$%&”&*&?*((&%*%?”(their all shit for brains)

  • jim

    when you see all of those guys, bin laden does look very tame by comparison

  • The Doppleganger

    #165 choosilicious:
    What you getting all hung up about his name for? He is known as Osama bin Ladin.

    I also think he is dead. Its been seven years since that piece of propaganda garbage, confession video was released.

  • guero

    the american govrnment is the most corrupt on earth, if they realy would like to catch characters like joaquin guzman loera, or osama bin laden they would!!! but they wont beacause they need people like that… the governmets promote them beacause thats the part they have to play…dont be surprised if el chapo guzman, or bin laden or any other of these rock stars are caught on a CIA plane in the near future…meanwile most americans are snifing coke, smoking tobacco, tweaking there heads off, or shaking fearing terrorists,thats what the governments wants us to feel and thats how the governments wants to kill our liberty,dreams and ourselves…dont let the govrnment fill your head with garbage!!! find yourselves!act with logic, and do whats right!!!

  • 169. guero:…and do whats right!!!
    ****
    And that would be?

  • PC

    My view on the world is if we all accept everyone else for who they are then there would be no conflict. Also to compare 9/11 with Hiroshima is nonsense. The Japanese were prepared to fight to the death and indeed there is EVIDENCE that Japanese civilian’s committed suicide rather that surrendering to the allies in Okinawa.

    Also I think one of the great ironies of nuclear weapons is that they have prevented another world war. If it were not for them then the US and USSR would surly have gone to war.

  • 171PC:…the US and USSR would surly have gone to war.
    ****
    Every country which goes to war is in a surly condition. If they feel nicely towards each other why would they go to war?

  • guy

    169. guero – that comment wasnt very cool.

  • Mikey

    173. guy –

    It may well be near some kind of truth, though. And the pro-human sentiment is undoubtedly there.

  • guy

    i am pretty sure that most people on earth know of the 9/11 attacks on the US. i really hope that when other people see the videos of the towers falling and the lives that were lost feel the same hatred for bin laden that i feel. i hope he is caught and executed for his horrible crimes against not only the US but the other nations he has targeted for his evil acts of terror.

  • some guy

    he should be caught but contained in solitary confinment for the rest of his life because it is more of a punishment.

  • PC

    I am very anti execution, but even I believe that sometimes truly evil men deserve to die e.g. bin laden and some of the Nazi war criminals.

  • Sharki

    This list is out dated.

    Aribert Heim is believed dead

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7870923.stm

  • Diplomat

    bin laden is on americas most wanted
    theres a bounty on his head and everything…this list is legit.

  • Becky

    I think joseph Kony needs to be on this list. He has killed millions of children in Uganda. Look up the facts on this everyone…there is an organization called “invisible children” trying to save these kids.

  • jose

    bin laden was not the man behind the 9/11 tragedy. It was Bush or maybe some other “politics” all along. wanting to get the oil from oil rich arab places.

  • Oh, jose! Get a grip!
    Bush may have been an idiot, but he wasn’t a traitor. Bin Laden was most assuredly behind 9/11.
    For you to believe what you posted is the stuff of fairytales, and you don’t write well enough to be an author.

  • BigJay102

    I dont care how dangerous bin laden is! ill go right up to him and drag him to the fbi by his beard to get hold of 50 million! :) great list

  • heros

    i think they r the heros of the world not a most wanted peopel itf the r most wanted y not they yet came the r trule our heros god help u my heros.

  • 184. heros.
    What language is that?

  • tom

    I dont belive this but Nostradamussaid that in the 7th month (in his calender September, hence the sept bit)
    blood and fire would reign from the sky and start a war that lasted for 27 years… so meybe they will catch him in 2030.

  • tom

    that last one was about bin ladan

  • Jay-unit

    hey guys does anyone know if DR Death(Aribert Heim) is still allive im doing a school report and i dont think hes dead please say what you think

  • smithyboy129

    no im pretty sure hes dead :)

  • smithyboy129

    does enyone know how to catch osama bin laden

  • smithyboy129

    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

  • Stevie C

    Number 2 looks like his boss, Milosevic. How do these boys get away; i can’t believe that there is a possibility that some crusty old Nazis are still roaming about

  • ajshrestha

    Interesting article, just like every other articles in Listverse. I have to admit though that the comment section in this site is remarkably civil. In any other site, Hobo would have been called a fag and Randall would have been called an educated fag, no insult meant to either of you by the way.
    Which reminds me, thank you for making my work hours pass by so fast, the comments are just a educational as the lists.

  • cheesecake

    i like cheese and cheese cake

  • amber

    WHAT ABOUT D.B COOPER?

  • HARRY1

    ohhhhh noooo osama bin ladin iz a no 1 killer man hiz to good in hiz hideout. lolz

  • smithyboy129

    lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Damn

    Osama Bin Laden lol. He was trained by CIA and now they are hiding him. First USA claimed that he had HUGE underground forts with offices, computers, and much more. How many did americans find? 0! Not a single one. After they claimed that he’s hiding in some cave somwhere, but as we see on every recording that is remotely good we can see that he is clean with nice shaped beard and nice and clean outfit. Wow he manages to look like brad pit in a cave o.O Amazing. Same as that British dude(soldier don’t know about rank) with moustache who joined to hunt down Al Quaeda. And his statement after 6weeks on journalist interview we have’t cought any al quaeda members, and we haven’t killed any. Same as Iraq’s “biological weapons” (never a single one found). Same as Vietnam how many Americans died for NOTHING? As long as u are following like sheeps are following sheepards, u are going in a sloughter.

    Sorry for my bad English.

  • cheesecake

    do u recon bin larden likes cheesecake cause i love it its fit

  • cheesecake

    yay im num 200!

  • cheesecake

    and 201

  • cheesecake

    and 202 and i forgot to put 199

  • cheesecake

    im 203 and im english we ave lovely wefer

  • Bee

    number 2’s idntifies himself as Dylan
    i found him last weekend in Beechwood arcade in cheltenham, england offering poppers to me and my young pals.
    he said strange things to us like, “poppers?” and “the christmas tree is a rocket launching experiment” and then later on he changed his mind about the christmas tree to “the christmas tree is filled with whipped cream”, “if is the middle word of life” was said on the phone to a young ginger called Mollie, and also “poppers?” “Poppers give you a nice rush in the mornings” and “we should tie a rope around eachother becasuse we keep losing everyone”
    he stalked us for over 12 hours before we were finally able to get away.
    when we were in lidl car park he shows up and says “i thought i’d check all the usual places, i’ve been walking for 5 miles trying to find you”
    this is a true story, i swear down now! so if anyone is looking for Army Chief Ratko Mladic (aka Army Chief Dylan) he lives in a house on Hern Road, Charlton Kings, Cheltenham, England…. xx p.s he has a mild accent too…

  • Cemerena

    Osama Bin Laden shouldn’t be that high up on the list, he pales in comparison to some of them.

  • Armodillotron

    What I don`t get is why should Ratko Mladic be a fugitive. He isn`t a saint not by any stretch of the imagination, but what people probably don`t know, is that some of the people that he killed were linked to al Qaeda. Muslims from all over the world, went to fight them in Bosnia. And Bosnian Muslims fought with Nazis during WW 2, and butchered the Serbs. And when Ratko Mladic was a boy, he spent time in a Croat concentration camp. So how can he be evil for killing people who`d fought with Nazis? And while members of al Qaeda were in Bosnia, the Serbs even managed to shoot Osama Bin Laden`s second in command in the leg. Shame they didn`t shoot Bin Laden eh!

  • erin xx

    bin laden is hiding under my bed :O x

  • amit

    Well I no body is saint the agency offering money or the persons getting searched all are same ,
    one who will win is “GOOD” other who losses is “BAD” thats how world is get use to it

  • amit

    yeh he is hiding in my bathroom too :)

  • damian

    the picture 3 Dr Death Aribert Heim
    is WRONG!!!
    it shows fredrik jensen
    please remove the picture thus respecting the integrity
    of Fredrik Jensen.
    Thank you

  • Heart

    I like to lick poo.

  • freaked

    AHH OSAMA IN MY BED!!! :)

  • freaked

    oh no wait it was my wife.. :(

  • osama

    YOU NEXT

  • osama

    :D :( :) ;)

  • moke

    :D :( :) ;) :p =:)

  • Andy

    hmmm…

  • muhammad

    if bin laden is here,then shouldnt the pope be here,because after all,he knew about priests raping young kids while he was in charge of that section and yet did nothing.when i hear about things like this im proud to be a muslim.atleast i can send my child to learn about his religion without fear of him being molested.but we muslims learn from small to respect all religions and in this case im just criticising the people in charge….

  • Justin

    Osama has a nice wrist watch.

  • Bart Simpson

    Wow Osama look like Gold bars to me..

  • S>O_L{D

    Men when I people singing Hosanna seems to me that they are singing Hosanna. This guy Deserve to have his GOLD_MEDAL because 100% people had attempted to catch him..but their mission allways fail. Kool mad man

  • S>O_L{D

    Yea, interesting i’ve seen all the top ten maddest killer;;;hey but what about Joseph Kony he should be fitted as top 11, what he does he abduct children and use to reward his soldiers…want to Know more this guy extremely hunt humans not animal and he still living with the wild animal as a team. But i guess he is killing human for the “Ten Commanderment” as he mention so sory if you don’t know him or ever heard of him…

  • eejit

    Usama Bin Laden is not wanted for 911, he’s wanted for an alleged bombing.

    (FBI website: http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/usama

    There is no evidence linking Usama Bin Laden to Bush’s war, they are trying to make him a Patsy.

  • STFU

    I need to find that Osama and get me my 50 mill.

  • syafiq

    Osama doesnt even exists. its obama.. american are smart.

  • Jerusalem Tickets

    i like this site i t i s interesting and useful thanx for sharing and keep sharing i’ll be waiting for your next postJerusalem Tickets

  • Ryan

    Bunch of scumbags. Destroy them at first sight.

  • Megan

    You are so wrong on that one mate! Just shows how you should never jump to conclusions.

  • Jason Peiser

    no more osama

  • Anna

    This list needs to be updated!
    Osama is dead.

  • john

    most wanted man in our world should be muslim terrirest

  • Shakehar

    bin Laden is dead !!!

  • Ness2k

    We got Osama!!!!!! :) time to start a new list, so you can take him off now.

  • Erin

    Bin Laden is caught!!!!

  • lorra loo

    Osama bin laden was killed! Wootwoot!

  • Stephanie Dixon

    Guess this list can be updated now….

  • Nick

    Hahaha bin laden’s dead now bitches!

  • Manix

    Looks like we can remove #1

  • Captain Obvious

    “This year” was 2008, astrology is bullshit.

  • may

    bin laden was caught you can take him off

  • gingerdan

    can i just say bin laden died on the 2nd of may (monday) he was killed by us navy seals. yess a good day foe the world

  • Prince Mahobo

    Osama was captured and i was given $50 Million, i am rich wow

    • JWall

      Osama is dead & Mladic was captured.

  • Captain Carrot

    Osama was already dead. Couldn’t ruin the war right away, the people in charge wanted it to go on. Then they utilized it in order to try to keep the current goon in office come election time. Come on, people, wake the hell up.

  • EveStar5

    Happily, most of these people have been caught :)

  • JD

    Osamas dead if you dont know!

  • The bottom two have now been killed/captured.

    Your crimes always catch up with you!

  • mike dido

    James j Bulger was caught in california earlier this week.

  • pate

    9, 2, and 1 are found/dead…

    • Captain Carrot

      You sure about that?

      You know, I find it amusing that there are so many people poking fun at the religious on Listverse for “believing something w/out visual proof”, but yet we’ll believe our government about anything.

      Yeah, because our govt has always been so honest with us…

  • Noodles

    Whitey was caught recently. Knowing Massachetts and his brother, they will let this slimebag slide with next to nothing. Mat spend 5 years in jail if he survives that long.

  • someone u don’t know

    osama bin laden has been killed a couple of moths ago so take him off the most wanted list k

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  • zilma

    hi ,

    my name is zilma im from Brazil ..i would like know if arellana was arrrested ?
    he is from chile ? what is his mother’s name ?… i want to be called suspicious mind , but i need this information to be sure if they are not renting my house .

  • nhspeeda

    Whitey, has been caught

  • bronzezeus

    OBL ——> good riddance to bad rubbish……What goes around comes around……say ello to my lil friend……asta lavista fool

  • bronzezeus

    What the Nazis did was inexcusable and they should be brought to justice however long it takes…..but arent the Israelis doing the same to the Palestinians on a smaller scale? An oppressed nation should be the last one to oppress another nation. People will never learn and repeat the mistakes of others. Very sad and unfortunate.

  • awesome

    he died

  • Nita

    Disapointing that it’s really hard to find a full list of the Nazi war criminals most wanteds. There were some that fled to New Zealand shortly after the war. I’ve always wondered about my German Grandfather, some questionable photos I’ve found and his stories about concentration camps just don’t add up. I hate that theres doubt, but if there is anywhere any site that i could go to, just to see a list of SS soldiers etc etc without subscribing to something expensive and painless would be most appreciated…Thanks for your time, great list =)

  • Come catch me if you can

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  • brenda cantello

    Bulger was caught and tried Bin Ladin is dead and so is Bashir

  • brenda cantello

    Bulger was caught Bin Ladin and Bashir are dead

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  • Harry Lloyd

    What reward is there for German Fugitive Ralf Gunter Preuss alies Boeber Hayward

  • Name

    well guess what………….. you are wrong its 2011 and they finally caught him but im glad they did

  • Oleg

    Ratko Mladic Neighbour in 65 flat very frequently talking about him may be praying or dishearring

  • DiKi

    Kony 2012

  • Chris

    Bin laden was caught in2002 but bush said it 8 years later
    We caught him!” yeah politically convenient for him
    Btw
    Bin laden was not the man who attacked USA
    It was USA government people who did the attacks! http://thecastsite.com/blog/2010/01/osama-bin-laden-not-involved-in-911-attacks/

  • vernicia

    Isn’t Joseph Kony one of these people?

    • Anna

      Kony hasn’t been active for almost a decade now. In fact, people think he’s dead already.

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  • Armadillotron

    Can someone tell me, why the hell they threw Osama Bin Laden in the sea? It would have put an end to all the conspiracy theory crap. and don`t give me, “He was a mess.” I`ve seen photos of the other people that the SEALS killed, and all it is, is two dead guys, with a pool of blood behind them. and ONE of them looks like Osama Bin Laden. they could have put it on display. They did it with Che and Saddam Hussein`s sons. And the reason he weren`t caught, was simple. He had GEORGE W BUSH looking for him. So it`s obvious why he weren`t caught. It was a modern day version of King John and Robin Hood. And to put an end to the 9/11 conspiracy theories, what happened, is that 19 people hijacked planes, and flew them into the Twin Towers. This then started a fire. Which then caused the metal to soften. With the immense weight on top, this caused the buildings to collapse. it wasn`t done by dynamite or whatever these “Truthers,” say. I know it`s hard to believe a guy who lived in a cave did this but he did..

  • Yuki

    Should update this, since Osama was killed.

  • saintoftheknight

    they caught bin laden and sent him out to see with a bullet in his head

  • AFZALHUSSAIN “INQILABI”

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  • Where is Mullah Mohammed Omar???

  • lfdkajdsf

    Mladic has been caught too recently!

  • periquito

    osama bin ladin has bin a cia agent for 27 years ,and his real name is bill osma.he had nothing to do with 911

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