Atheism has been around for thousands of years, and responsible for many philosophical and scientific developments. Like any movement, it has had its fair share of evil characters. As atheism has no moral precepts, outside of natural morality and ethics, it is hard to say how their atheism influenced their behavior or the particular political and similar movements they chose to follow. It seems that no matter what philosophy or religion people profess, people will always do wrong, whether or not in the name of their faith. This list is a follow-on from the Top 10 People Who Give Christianity A Bad Name.

Alfred Kinsey was an infamous American biologist and professor of entomology and zoology, who made groundbreaking research on human sexuality. Undoubtedly, he helped to progress social values – but, nevertheless, he took sadistic pleasure out of his research, and did some very weird stuff, including exploiting children for sex. Moreover, much of his research was fraud.

Many people agree that Napoleon Bonaparte, heavily involved in the anti-clerical French Revolution, was atheist – he claimed that “all religions have been made by men”. He was one of the best ever military commanders, and conquered much of Europe. He staged a coup and declared himself Emperor. While he ended anarchy in post-Revolution France, many considered him a tyrant and usurper. He ignored treaties and conventions, seeking undisputed rule throughout Europe. He plundered conquered territories. His 17 years of rule resulted in the bankruptcy of France, loss of many of her territories, six million dead Europeans and economic setback in just one generation.

Than Shwe is the 77 year old dictator of Myanmar/Burma, the head of the ruling military junta. He has overseen the formation of one of the most closed societies in the world. There is no notion of free press, and journalists who opposed his regime are detained. Aung Suu Kyi, the leader of the main opposition party, is kept in house detention by him. Civil servants are forbidden from resigning. Burma has the highest rate of child soldiers in the world, and uses forced labor on construction projects. As far as dictators go, Than Shwe keeps a relatively low, and even sullen, profile. Nevertheless, he reportedly leads an extravagant lifestyle, while his people continue to suffer a life of extreme poverty and natural disasters. In the aftermath of Cyclone Nargis, he refused entry into the country for many foreign aid organizations.

Kim Jong-Il is the de facto leader of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and responsible for the deaths of four million of his fellow Koreans. He is also at the heart of a bizarre personality cult; apocryphal stories such as how “at the time of his birth there were flashes of lightening and thunder, the iceberg in the pond on Mt. Paektu emitted a mysterious sound as it broke, and bright double rainbows rose up” are abundant. Those caught stealing food in the famine-struck nation, or attempting to cross the borders, are subject to public execution. Kim is continuing his lavish lifestyle and military obsession in spite of the crumbling economy. In North Korea he and his father are deified, considered saviors of the whole universe. 250,000 dissidents are confined to “re-education camps”. He has waged a war on South Korea that involved assassinating South Korean leaders and blowing up South Korean planes. He presents a great threat to the world in terms of nuclear warfare, having persuaded the Soviet Union to award him a nuclear reactor in 1984.

Jeffrey Dahmer, an infamous serial killer and atheist sentenced to 900 years in prison, said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?”. He brutally killed seventeen men and boys, dismembering them, storing their parts and indulging in cannibalism and necrophilia. In 1991, he was caught by the police after one of his would-be victims escaped. Despite pleading not guilty on the basis on insanity, the court found him sane and fully accountable. He later expressed remorse.

Jim Jones drew people into atheism through the People’s Temple, largely based in California. He said that he “took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism”. In 1978, 909 people at the restricted communist “sanctuary” he presided over in Jonestown, Guyana, committed “revolutionary suicide” at his command. This occurred after the arrival of an American delegation, which he claimed was conspiring against the People’s Temple. Men, women and children took a vial of cyanide and died within five minutes. Only a few people escaped. This event was the largest single loss of American civilian life, in a non-natural disaster, up until 9/11. This entry has the unique status of being on both the atheism and Christianity list. The reason is that the majority of people considered Jones to be the leader of a type of Christian cult, but, as the quote above illustrates, it was really a ruse to attract people who would otherwise have steered well clear of him.

Mussolini is notorious for his war crimes as a Fascist dictator during World War II. As a young man he openly declared his atheism, and in his early career as a politician was openly anti-clerical. He was the Italian leader of the National Fascist Party, became Prime Minister in 1922 and was eventually a dictator who severely restricted freedom of speech. Mussolini supported Hitler’s conquest of Austria. In 1935, he invaded Ethiopia, using poison gas, bombing Red Cross hospitals and concentration camps to kill civilians and destroy “inferior” cultures. He ordered the execution of prisoners without trial and the shooting of “witch-doctors”. Italian troops used public executions, hostage taking and burning of villages to crush the Slavic population of Yugoslavia. These acts are now widely considered an attempt at genocide. However, later he tried to associate Fascism with Catholicism in order to garner dwindling support (however his widow made it clear that he was still staunchly atheist). Mussolini was also deeply anti-Semitic.

Mao Zedong led the Communist Party of China to victory in the Chinese Civil War, helping to establish the People’s Republic of China. He had ambitions for a strong China, but his programs largely failed altogether. He has been blamed for the death of between 20 and 67 million of his “comrades”. Under his insane rule there was a culture akin to anarchy, that killed the economy and industrial production. His “Great Leap Forward” triggered a catastrophic and massive famine. However, he is most notorious for the precepts of the “Cultural Revolution”, which led to perhaps the greatest era of cultural vandalism the world has ever known. Antiques, historical sites, artifacts, ancient documents, feng shui traditions, Chinese traditional dresses and monasteries were destroyed for being associated with the “old ways of thinking”. Many copies of the Qu’ran were burnt. Red Guard groups around the country destroyed political and educational stability, criticizing anyone who considered himself superior, destroying reputations and lives. Mao, privately, led a life of great deviancy and excess. He also exacted revenge on all those, mainly intellectuals and professionals, who had disgraced Mao in his earlier career. He also targeted anyone with links to the Chinese Nationalist Party as well as anyone who posed a threat to him. Five million were executed in death camps. 36 million were persecuted and tortured. There were even instances of cannibalism.

Pol Pot was the leader of the Khmer Rouge and Prime Minister of Cambodia from 1976 to 1979, having been de facto leader since mid-1975. During his time in power Pol Pot imposed an extreme version of agrarian communism, where all city dwellers were relocated to the countryside to work in collective farms and forced labour projects. The combined effect of slave labour, malnutrition, poor medical care and executions is estimated to have killed around 2 million Cambodians (approximately one third of the population). His regime achieved special notoriety by singling out all intellectuals, and other “bourgeois enemies”, for murder. The Khmer Rouge committed mass executions in sites known as the Killing Fields, and the executed were buried in mass graves. In order to save ammunition, executions were often carried out using hammers, axe handles, spades or sharpened bamboo sticks. His attempts to “cleanse” the country resulted in the deaths of 1.7 to 2.5 million people. He also had an intense dislike of anyone with the semblance of being intelligent, such as those who wore glasses or who spoke another language.

Stalin was General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union’s Central Committee, from 1922 until his death in 1953. Under Stalin’s leadership, the Ukraine suffered a famine (Holodomor) so great it is considered by many to be an act of genocide on the part of Stalin’s government. Estimates of the number of deaths range from 2.5 million to 10 million. The famine was caused by direct political and administrative decisions. In addition to the famine, Stalin ordered purges within the Soviet Union of any person deemed to be an enemy of the state (i.e. capitalists, theists). In total, estimates of the total number murdered under Stalin’s reign, range from 10 million to 60 million. His government promoted atheism with mass propaganda in school, and held a terror campaign against the religious. He crushed the Russian Orthodox Church, leveling thousands of churches and shooting more than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns between 1937 and 1938.
N.B. Adolf Hitler is left off this list because it is widely acknowledged that, while he abhorred organized religion, there is much evidence that he engaged in “nazi mysticism” or occultism.
















1 Avi
June 5th, 2010 at 8:34 am
Hell there is nothing that doesnt have a bad name anymore. Everything is tainted at this point.
2 Anette
June 5th, 2010 at 8:37 am
the list over people that has given religion (of any kind) a bad name is forever going to be longer….
3 @#$%!!
June 5th, 2010 at 8:41 am
Just started to wonder how old some of these list makers are. I mean I don't care about trying to sound high brow and grammatically correct that much myself.
>>He was one of the best ever military commanders, and conquered much of Europe. <<
4 JFrater
June 5th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Just wait – this one will get more comments because of all the atheists who will deny that the members of this list are actually atheists
5 JFrater
June 5th, 2010 at 8:44 am
What exactly is the problem with that? Are you complaining about "best ever"? You could argue for that being a valid sentence in that one can be the best of his generation – or the best of all generations (best ever).
6 JFrater
June 5th, 2010 at 8:45 am
Wherever fallible men are involved, there will be taint.
7 Paul
June 5th, 2010 at 8:48 am
Great list… most are Communists!!!
8 James
June 5th, 2010 at 8:56 am
I was about to query Jim Jones. Thank God
I read the entire list before making that mistake.
9 James
June 5th, 2010 at 9:03 am
Where is Barack Obama? According to comments on fox news.com he hates America/Americans, Israel/Jews and God/Christians ie he is the anti christ.
10 Momotsuki
June 5th, 2010 at 9:07 am
I don't think that the debate of whether or not these individuals are atheists is a problem. I think the title should be changed to "10 people who did bad things and were coincidentally atheists". Contrary to the previous list on Chrstianity, I don't see the link between the people's deeds and their atheistic beliefs.
11 atheism
June 5th, 2010 at 9:09 am
I do not agree that that these people gave atheism a bad name. They have never killed in the name of atheism or for atheism. They have killed for their philosophy which is not determined by their atheism. The dislike for intellectuals (Pol Pot) is not part of atheism. Yet, muslims and christians have killed countless people IN THE NAME OF CHRIST OR ALLAH. thats they difference. You have never hear them say, "atheism is great" before killing, but yet muslims fadmentailsts shout:" allahu akbar." when they suicide bomb. So these people did not give atheism a bad name. And i have a feeling the the person who compiled the list is a christian.
12 Wrichik Basu
June 5th, 2010 at 9:09 am
I am so glad that Richard Dawkins isn't on this list.
A list of 10 people who make atheism look silly should include Bill Maher btw.
13 tooth fairy
June 5th, 2010 at 9:13 am
dont forget ricky gervais, that bum should be on this list.
14 bonbonvie
June 5th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Great list and very interesting, but if Kim Jong Il is deified then how can he truly be an atheist?
It's interesting how few of the people on this list have actually commited their atrocities in *the name of* atheism, as opposed to how many theists commit their atrocities in *the name of* their god. But it just goes to show, there's good and bad in all walks of life.
Your add about Hitler isn't strictly true – there's actually more evidence to suggest he went to church on a fairly regular basis than there is for any of his other alleged religious views. He publicly stated that he believed Germany to be a Christian nation and was considered "deeply religious" by Goebbels.
Stalin really was a monster. In some ways I think he was even worse than Hitler.
15 mordechaimordechai
June 5th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Best comments ever!
16 timothyjames
June 5th, 2010 at 9:18 am
I was going to make the same suggestion once I got through reading the comments. It seems like a lot of these people aren't defined by their atheism, as the members of the other list were defined by their faith.
17 timothyjames
June 5th, 2010 at 9:19 am
Don't you know? Barak Obama censors the internet. He got to this list long before we did.
18 daxxenos
June 5th, 2010 at 9:21 am
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness."
Karl Marx, or any American Liberal.
19 timothyjames
June 5th, 2010 at 9:21 am
I don't know about this list. Very interesting read (the Kim Jong Il part brought back great memories of a recent list), but the title threw me a little. Good job, anyway.
20 bonbonvie
June 5th, 2010 at 9:24 am
I have no idea what the compiler's religious views are, but he's not above some pretty biased posts – see his Che Guevara list where he calls Che an Emo because he liked poetry, or his constant fawning over Ayn Rand to get an idea of what I mean.
However, he does have a list about the people who give Christianity a bad name, so there is a balance to this.
21 dissentity
June 5th, 2010 at 9:26 am
Good post. It does seem that the title of the list itself should be changed on the basis that the atheist stance is in no manner argued against because of these individuals listed above. However, I do think that the description does a fair job of saying that people are involved in evils regardless of religious beliefs or lack thereof.
22 dissentity
June 5th, 2010 at 9:30 am
I am in complete agreement with this statement. I would reason that people would argue that Atheism is bad because of these individuals. However, that train of thought is false which would make your title more fitting.
23 Fanny
June 5th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Did the list writer actually do any research on Alfred Kinsey or did they just believe what his detractors say without actually examining it? From what I understand, Kinsey was a bit of a masochist, not a sadist, and he never exploited or experimented with children.
The only one on this list whom I see as actually giving atheism a bad name is Dahmer, who explicity stated that he had no moral compass because he had no religious beliefs. Most atheists will ridicule that idea. If people are only "good" or refrain from committing murder, rape, and other crimes because they fear a god's punishment, what kind of moral compass is that? The rest of the entries on this list are people who did reprehensible things, but it seems their atheism had little to do with their actions.
24 Marijn
June 5th, 2010 at 9:35 am
I couldn't have said it better.
Only Staling did something against the church, and not even sure if that is because he is Atheist.
25 Jack
June 5th, 2010 at 9:44 am
That is a very good point.
26 James
June 5th, 2010 at 9:47 am
Glen? Glen Beck? Is that you? If it is, SUCK MY CHOCOLATE SALTY BALLS!
27 astraya
June 5th, 2010 at 9:53 am
All things considered, I'll stick to religion, specifically, in my case, moderate Christianity, which has given the world art, science, music, architecture, health care and human rights (most of the time).
28 dissentity
June 5th, 2010 at 10:09 am
But then why would you base your beliefs based on what they've provided the world. Firstly, that doesn't make the religion true. Secondly, a multitude of other religions have provided the world with those things as well. As a result, that's no reason to choose Christianity or put it above any other religion.
29 sky
June 5th, 2010 at 10:24 am
I was pretty sure that Kinsey, and confidant that Napoleon were both Agnostic and not Atheist.
30 The Major
June 5th, 2010 at 10:30 am
I don't think Astraya said that. I think he said that many of the arguments given above don't provide a reason to give up Christianity.
31 Ray
June 5th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Christianity gave us none of those things, and vehemently opposed the arts (theatre, and anything the church deemed morally depraved: most of it), and medical science for many many years. What they gave us was missionaries who crossed the world destroying other cultures, the rest of your list was appropriated by Christians, just like they appropriate the monotheistic beliefs of the Jewish people and supplanted that onto the culture of Rome to create the Christian religion.
32 The Major
June 5th, 2010 at 10:37 am
It's a fair point that merely relying on pleasing religion doesn't provide a moral compass.
However, in an atheistic society, people could certainly have vastly different levels of morality, and it would be difficult to argue against them. If one was to take a purely scientific approach (which you'd have to), one could make the case for eugenics, genocide etc. Of course there's always the law. However, if a country had laws allowing racial persecution, would that make them right? Could we assume that our ideas, based on centures of living under Judeo-Christian religion, are correct?
Troubling questions
33 Akashtorturedmind
June 5th, 2010 at 3:39 am
Great list. I’m just waiting to see how many comments this list will gather. As soon as religion is mentioned the post becomes highly controversial.
34 Cyn
June 5th, 2010 at 10:53 am
make a distinction between inferring that someone is atheist based on a theistic bias interpretation of actions & having actual evidence they are theists as in being a publicly proclaimed member of some religion such as a priest. make a distinction between horrific acts explicitly committed by someone publicly pronouncing such acts in the name of some god & actual atheists stating publicly that horrific acts were committed for the sake of atheism & no other reason or explanation. the historical tally sheet weighs much, much more heavily on the side of theists than atheists. i would like to see actual evidence of people publicly proclaiming that their agenda or rationale for whatever horror they committed was based on atheism…Jim Jones aside…that bit needs documentation. it is much simpler to look up public records of public figures ..such as birth certificates, baptismal records, marriage licenses…etc. & public statements of testaments of some religion than hard evidence not just hearsay or after the fact inference of atheism.
35 Ian Cordray
June 5th, 2010 at 10:55 am
Nice list. I have to disagree with your first two selections though. Kinsey's research really revolutionized the way we think about sex today. His research wasn't mostly fraudulent, but most people believe that because of the stigma surrounding sex at the time.
Secondly, Napoleon is regarded by many people as the French national hero. While he did all the things you said, how can you then say that he gives atheism a bad name with a reputation as a hero? He only lost a lot of french Territory because during his rule French territory was Europe. When he was dethroned he was forced to give it all up. You also fail to mention some of the good things he did like: establishing a national bank, write a fair tax code, improve road and sewer systems, and finance higher education.
36 Marco
June 5th, 2010 at 11:00 am
I think this is somewhat missing the point. Most of the people on this list did not commit their evil because they believe there is no god; most of them are evil and happen to be atheist. This is a marked difference with people who commit evil in the name of their religion.
37 The Major
June 5th, 2010 at 11:07 am
Do you ever consider that many evil acts committed in the 'name of religion' are merely that – by name only? Many religious conflicts have other debates going on as well – i.e. Northern Ireland is as much, if not more, about unionism and republicanism than religion; the Crusades was arguably a money-making exercise.
I'm not saying that ends the argument. I just wondered if you ever considered this.
38 Mike Knowler
June 5th, 2010 at 11:17 am
Kim isn't an atheist – he fancies himself a god, the reincarnation of his father.
Adolph Hitler:
"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice"
Nazi uniform beltbuckles:
"Gott mit Uns."
Although the Alfred Kinsey is a bit arguable, it's a decent list.
39 The Major
June 5th, 2010 at 11:20 am
Stalin in an interview to First American Trade Union Delegation in 1927:
"The Party cannot be neutral with regard to religion, and it conducts anti-religious propaganda against any and all religious prejudices because it stands for science, while religious prejudices go against science, since every religion is something contrary to science."
40 Aleš
June 5th, 2010 at 11:27 am
@to several comments
If a religious person commits a crime, it's because they're religious. If an ateistic person does the same crime, it's just a coincidence, that they they are ateistic. I don't see any logic in this. Only prejudice.
41 7raul7
June 5th, 2010 at 11:37 am
Napoleon was an atheist ? Consider these:
"I am a monarch of God's creation, and you reptiles of the earth dare not oppose me. I render an account of my government to none save God and Jesus Christ. "
Addressing members of the Catholic clergy assembled during ‘Bonaparte's Conference with the Catholic and Protestant clergy at Breda,’ May 1, 1810
"The existence of God is attested by everything that appeals to our imagination. And if our eye cannot reach Him it is because He has not permitted our intelligence to go so far."
"Jesus Christ was the greatest republican."
"Charity and alms are recommended in every chapter of the Koran as being the most acceptable services, both to God and the Prophet."
"I do not see in religion the mystery of the incarnation so much as the mystery of the social order. It introduces into the thought of heaven an idea of equalization, which saves the rich from being massacred by the poor."
42 Armadillotron
June 5th, 2010 at 11:41 am
Hitler didn`t believe in the Occult or Mysticism. That was that guy with the glasses. And it`s hard to work out if he was religious or not. He said, "Christianity is for sick brains," and "The best thing to do is to let Christianity die a natural death." But he was also was raised a Roman Catholic and trained to be a Priest. So it`s hard to work out.
43 WhiteDragon
June 5th, 2010 at 11:44 am
So you guys have no problem saying that this list's title should be changed because these people didn't do what they did "in the name of atheism" but have no problems lumping every Christian together into one group because, say, ten people did bad things in the name of God? Nice…
44 Arsnl
June 5th, 2010 at 4:49 am
It was actually stalin that went to a seminar to become a priest. But he hated it and we can all see the result. I hate stalin. I hope im allowed to hate him.
45 Spiderbait
June 5th, 2010 at 11:52 am
I agree with you, although Dahmer seems to have the connection of not being liable for his actions. Although I'm guessing that he realized that, although it's no hell, eternity in prison is still pretty bad since he showed signs of repenting.
46 Matt101
June 5th, 2010 at 11:52 am
The sad thing about this list is that the author, inadvertently i hope, is just adding fuel to the fire, without getting some of his facts straight. Some people have already stressed that none of these people committed various heinous acts simply because they were atheists. It's like saying that Joe, who doesn't drink alcohol, and is a convicted sex offender, gives anti alcoholism a bad name. Think about things like this when considering the condemnation of someone's traits which are independent of the acts one committed.
47 Arsnl
June 5th, 2010 at 4:57 am
I think you missed #1. Try and read it again. When you are over, read it again.
48 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 11:59 am
As, of course, is the list on Christianity in which the items on the list are bad but not necessarily because they identify as Christian. Bad people are bad people regardless of their creed.
49 Spiderbait
June 5th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
I love it when people are labeled as the Antichrist. From what I've read the Antichrist is supposed to be a charismatic figure that claims to lead the way to righteousness but really paves the way to oblivion. That means that he is vague enough that you could label most men as the Antichrist and labeling someone as the Antichrist, in my opinion, rather shows the persons intolerance than anything else.
The thing I can't understand is how much the Christian community loved Bush!
50 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Yep – that sums up my previous comment that all the controversy here will be people saying that the list is invalid because the atheists didn't do their evil deeds in the name of Atheism. But all of those saying that will say the Christian list was valid because Christianity is to blame for their misdeeds.
51 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
I find it offensive when people compare Obama to the anti-Christ. It is one thing to be a bad politician and another to be the prince of evil. Obama isn't even a socialist – if he was he would be putting laws into place to abolish private ownership of property. Obama is not the anti-Christ – he is just a bad politician like 99.9% of all politicians – democrat or republican.
52 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Umm – Xanthius wrote the list on Che Guevara and SallyH wrote this list. In fact, as far as I am aware, this poster has never had a list published here before. I pick the lists that are published and I try to have a balance when it comes to political or religious opinions.
Also – the comment about Che being an emo was meant as a joke – as were most of the titles to the items on that particular list
53 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Atheism doesn't mean destroying or suppressing the Church – it means coming from a morality that excludes the existence of a higher being. All people on this list meet that criteria.
54 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Dawkins will be on the list of Top 10 People who are out of their Depth when it comes to honest debate. The man has studied modern science and tries to use it to prove traditional philosophy wrong. First off, they are two entirely different studies these days, and secondly, science isn't meant to "prove" anything but merely to describe things. Dawkins is not qualified to debate theology. His zealotry takes atheism to a new level – he doesn't disbelieve the concept of a creator – he wants everyone to believe his view – that is cultism and a form of religion. True atheism does not want to convert people – it doesn't care.
55 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Atheism is the belief that there is no first creator.
Kim Jong Il believes that – thus he is an atheist.
Regardless of what his people believe, he is still an atheist. If 1 million people believe Richard Dawkins is God, it doesn't stop him being an atheist – it just means that 1 million people are extremely deluded.
56 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
You are right to an extent – he didn't directly interfere with children. However he did request and take the testimony of child rapists under a veil of secrecy to get his information on how young a child is before they have an orgasm. That is tacitly endorsing child rape.
57 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
You are seriously wrong. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Michaelangelo, Donatello, Messiaen, Schnittke – these are all great artists who were devoted to their faith. The Church has NEVER oppose art – it is one of the great patrons of the arts. As for medical science and other science, Aristotle set the ground for modern science, but it was St Thomas Aquinas (with full acceptance by the Church) who brought it into modern life. Copernicus was a monk, the man who invented the big bang was a priest – Father Lemaitre.
Theatre? Opera came from Monteverdi who followed the example of Palestrina – the greatest Church musician in history.
Ultimately – rather than give you examples to disprove you, I will as you to prove your point by giving me 5 examples in the last 2,000 years of the Church opposing the arts.
58 oouchan
June 5th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Actually Dawkins doesn't care either. What got him to what he is now, is his scoffing disbelief when it comes to god. I have seen his interviews, read his book and watched The Four Horsemen. His true weakness is he just doesn't seem to understand why, when there is logic and reason, someone would believe in something that isn't there.
59 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
I said this very early in the comments – the Atheists will say that these people did not commit their crimes in the name of atheism – but neither do most Christians. However, many atheists in their opposition to Christianity will certainly blame their faith for their actions even if their religion does not support their actions.
Hitler was a baptised Catholic but his actions were condemned by the Church. By your argument Hitler would not be allowed on a list of people who gave Christianity a bad name, but many atheists cite him as an argument against it.
60 Scott
June 5th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Sally H must be a Conservative Christian. Why #10, Alfred Kinsey – comments are from Conservative Christians who don't like his work. While they clam he and is research is a fraud, most scientists consider his work ground breaking and ahead of its time.
And what Sally H doesn't realize that most listed in her 10, are reacting to the Christian Church ties with oppressive Goverments . If she knew anything about history, she know Russia Christian church's ties with the Tzar, Christian Missionary Zealots actions in pre-communist China and French Vietnam. No wonder the tyrants renounced religion.
But, most of the Christians I know, don't care about history even their own church's history.
61 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
No he doesn't – the people of North Korea do. That is a very big difference.
62 Cyn
June 5th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
that was one good example.
just bear in mind being antitheistic is not the same as being an atheist. one can believe in a god (supreme being, higher power etc) & not participate in any religion. that said, as horrific as Stalin's 'body count' was…to date i do think the overall 'body count' plus the horrendous impact on society most especially women & children by religion far exceeds the impact of atheism.
63 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Perhaps you can explain then the fact that he put severe restrictions on religion. It is one thing to speak and another thing to believe. Actions speak louder than words. As for that last phrase, that is clearly the comment of a politician before he introduces an anti-rich rule in order to convince them that it is for their own good when it is probably not.
64 oouchan
June 5th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Wow. With 2 exceptions here, I would say that none of these fit in with giving atheism a bad name. Unlike religious zealots, atheists don't kill in the name of unbelief. It just happens that we find out AFTER that they are atheists…during research or study of the above mentioned.
65 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
As below, Stalin was the one who went to a seminary. Hitler definitely believed in a mythological pagan religion which saw the Germanic tribe as the superior tribe. Many people were raised Catholic who reject (by their actions) the teachings of the Church – those people are not Catholics. They have chosen to reject the Church.
66 oouchan
June 5th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
You're allowed to hate him. He's worse than anyone else.
67 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
No it isn't – the people on this list professed anti-religion; Joe, in your example didn't.
The point of this list is that if someone goes to church and commits a crime, it is okay to blame their religion, so, a person whose religion is the denial of God should be under the same set of rules.
68 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
In fact, logic and reason prove that God must exist – nothing comes from nothing, therefore there has to be something outside of physical reality which is the first creator. Dawkins is rabid because he knows he can't prove that wrong so he ignores it and screams instead.
Simple logic proves that the universe can't have just appeared from nothing as nothing can come from nothing – you can't give what you don't have. Equally, it can't be infinite because that would require an infinite regress of movers which is impossible.
69 anon
June 5th, 2010 at 12:40 pm
i agree matt. apt analogy
70 Cyn
June 5th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
'..a person whose religion is the denial of God ….'
what is the name of this religion that denies God…& which god does it deny?
71 Odin
June 5th, 2010 at 5:46 am
Yes, nothing can come from nothing, therefore I am saved by Jesus the Jewish Zombie and his sky wizard daddy. You theists are hilarious.
72 HAGEN
June 5th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Man, half of the list are communists!!!
Luckyly, to be an atheist doesn't mean you are a commie.
Communism really sucks…
Great list, by the way
73 Ricky
June 5th, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Most of these men seem to be leaders of communist nations, and nothing else is given to specify them as being atheists.
Just because a person is a communist doesn't mean they don't believe in any god.
I'm not saying these guys weren't, but when there is no other evidence of them being atheists other than tyranically ruling a communist nation, it's hard for me to accept that they are just based on that alone.
74 oouchan
June 5th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Actually most scientists don't believe it started from nothing. That's what theists believe…that god just poofed it into existence. We are still looking for answers so we can't say for certain (like theists do) what really went on. We are still learning.
As for saying logic and reason just happen to fall into his lap because there are no other answers in incorrect…again, we are still learning.
75 Danielle
June 5th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
I've just had a quick look at the '10 people who give Christianity a bad name' list.
8/10 of the people listed on there do or did do bad things BECAUSE of the religion. Here, 0/10 people did the bad things they did BECAUSE of atheism. I just thought I would point this out in reply to:
'…all the controversy here will be people saying that the list is invalid because the atheists didn't do their evil deeds in the name of Atheism. But all of those saying that will say the Christian list was valid because Christianity is to blame for their misdeeds. '
Christianity – or, more accurately, the belief within Christianity that the Holy Bible is pure truth – IS to blame for 8/10 of the bad deeds on that list… most certainly number 1 on the list, Fred Phelps. We of course shouldn't tar all Christians with the same brush – but, very unfortunately, we can safely say that the actual base point of the religion (the book) can and does promote a degree of hate. Thankfully, many believers cherry pick and ignore these hateful bits of the Bible – and that's more than fine with me.
Atheism has no 'rules to follow' like Christianity, so as much as people will try to say otherwise – once in a while, bad things will be done by those who are of Christian faith in the name of Christianity, while not by an atheist in the 'name' of atheism. Well, if someone said 'I am going to kill thousands of people SPECIFICALLY and ONLY because I have no belief in God' then that would be in the 'name of atheism', technically.
Also, atheism shouldn't be capitalised unless the start of a sentence. It's not a group or 'thing'. Just noting that from reading some of these comments… and only noting it as it shows a slight misunderstanding of what atheism is……
76 Rising Falls
June 5th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
I question Pol Pot's prominence in this list, being placed ahead of Mao, especially seeing that he controlled a much smaller country than China and killed far less people. I have seen figures ranging from 40 million to 150 million deaths caused by Mao. That is 83 million unaccounted-for people that went missing under Mao. Mao and Stalin together make up possibly more than 100 million people that went missing under their leadership but have never been officially been declared murdered.
77 DiscHuker
June 5th, 2010 at 6:08 am
If I say that I am killing in your name but everything you have ever said or thought is opposed to my actions, does my killing still getvtied to you? If a Christian kills someone because “God told me to do it” then they are not acting in line with what God has previously said in the Bible. This means they are not acting the way Christian theology prescribes. Hitler was not Christian in any way, shape or form because the Bible explicitly condemn his actions.
78 Rising Falls
June 5th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Some documentary placed the collective wealth of the Tsar in today's money at more than $1 trillion I believe. Just an interesting fact.
79 Wires
June 5th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
So because atheists supposedly blame the actions of evil people, who happen to be theists, on their faith, it's okay for theists to do the exact same to atheists? Right.
80 Ophiucha
June 5th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
Arguable, certainly. The Church definitely had periods where they suppressed art, but that was mostly on a pope-to-pope basis, and hardly substantial. What can be said, though, is that the Church kept people from creating much that wasn't religious in nature during a great deal of their time. There are LONG periods of time where every single painting and sculpture had a saint, Mary, Jesus, or a similar figure in it. And, as an atheist AND an art history major, I find little else more annoying than having to spend a thousand years of our history drawing nothing else. Aside from a handful of paintings of independently rich commissioners, we really do get little else.
81 Wires
June 5th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
I was always under the impression that rather than Hitler himself believing it, he used it as a tool of propoganda.
82 Ophiucha
June 5th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Strictly speaking, I think theism has more to do with worship and respect than just belief. One can believe in Jesus, but if you disobey his word and disrespect him, then are you really a Christian? (Although with that logic, few people these days are really Christians.) Furthermore, a God cannot be anything but an atheist, unless there is a higher figure which he believes in and worships. God need not believe in himself, for he knows he exists; God doesn't worship himself. Therefore, he can't be a theist.
83 Ophiucha
June 5th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
Napoleon and Hitler both fall into the same category in regards to their theism, in my opinion. They both certainly kept an eye that they were theistic, and perhaps they really were, but they saw the importance of religion in controlling the people. And Napoleon, who is honestly not the worst of guys as this article makes him out to be, most likely was struggling between the urge to use religion for his liking and what amounts to the strong and rightful belief in the separation of Church and State. He certainly wouldn't be the first honest Christian, though, who suppressed religion for the good of the people, nor the first to use it to control the people. That's been going on since the dawn of Christianity; and before that, it was used by honest polytheists to control the polytheistic masses. Nothing new, but I can't say it is obvious what he believed without further research.
84 Ophiucha
June 5th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
This is an awfully tricky topic, this. In my opinion, as others have said, you cannot commit evil in the NAME of atheism, exactly. There is no unifying belief in atheism other than "there is no God." That said, most of the evils committed in the NAME of a religion were in no way following the doctrines of those religions. Also, many of the above were communists, and the result of poor implementation of an inevitably flawed political system are what lead to all of these evils. Atheism is incidental; communism isn't an a/theocracy; atheism is an expectation of a communist government, but it doesn't lead to the evils of it. Atheism is as important to communism as free public education is, and that certainly didn't kill tens of millions of people.
Also, neither Kinsey nor Bonaparte are the worst of people, and while they are hardly heroes or role models (in my opinion), they are hardly the bad names of atheism. I really think miss Sally isn't an atheist, because an atheist might have only had one or two of these people on their personal Top 10 list.
85 kabeer
June 5th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Hahaha!
I stopped reading comments after the first Obama comment. This does have alot of political undertones.
So what does me being agnostic and a believer in conservative government make me?
86 Heleen
June 5th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
A lot of the entries on this list have no reference to the subject's atheism.
87 writegurl
June 5th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Actually, quantum physics demonstrates that something can indeed come from nothing. Whilte this fact doesn't make intuitive sense to most people, we didn't evolve to understand the quantum world because we didn't need to. (Note that from a seemingly intuitive, common-sense perspective, the world seems flat, not round. We have to use science to see the bigger picture, that the world is round, and also to understand why we don't all fall off the bottom.) Also, if one believes something cannot come from nothing but believes in God, then that position begs this question: from where did God come?
While it is true the church, for the most part, didn't oppose art, it did primarily support only art that depicted religious themes. Michaelangelo et. al. were mostly dedicated to their patron's financial support more than their personal beliefs in the Abrahamic diety. At least one of the great artists mentioned in this discussion was also homosexual, a sin desrving of death by the Biblical Yahweh.
continued below
88 writegurl
June 5th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
continued from above:
conclusion below:
89 writegurl
June 5th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
extention of comment from above:
Of course, religions, the Christian-based ones in particular, and their accompanying dogmas aren't completely evil; nothing or no one I can think of fits the description of veing completely corrupt; religions have sporatically supported certain scientific endeavors and artistic creations that have enhanced society; however, I unwaverlingly believe religions' negative aspects far outweigh the good. Carefully review history and note religions' systematic oppression of advancements in science, theater, human rights, and the list goes on… and on. For hundreds of years, scientific advancements that did not support biblical teachings were banned and the scientists were jailed, or worse, killed. Certain music was stifled for centuries because of tthe church's stance that the harmonies were sensuous pleasures and therefore sinful. LIkewise, theater was banned for a lengthy period, thousands of women were burned as witches, people were held as slaves, ad nauseum, all in the name of religion.
90 robawen
June 5th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Its my understanding that kinsey did research on an published such articles as how young a child could orgasem (sp?) and how many times a 13 year old boy can ejaculate in one day. I apologise for being so specific (TMI i know) but it begs the question of HOW would he be able to do research on this? either he would do it himself, or he would ask child molesters to do it for him.
The fact is kinsey or someone else at his request was molesting children.
91 writegurl
June 5th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
conclusion from above comment (Whew!)
Religion only improves as it becomes secularized. Throughtout history, we see religion changing as it becomes more tempered by the influence of rational thinking. The Abrahamic religion today is a mere shadow of the religion it once was, in which men owned wives as property, people were stoned for worshipping gods other than the Biblical one(s), women who had given birth were considered ritually unclean and so forth. We have the slow but steady encroachment of rational thinking into religion to thank for these, and other, progressions, which make religion more humane now than it ever has been.
Impassioned (yet hopefully rational) rant over.
92 Arsnl
June 5th, 2010 at 6:51 am
Im just going to love today. Hello!!!! Are you HUMAN. Can you READ? Try reading the STALIN entry. God dammit are you actually so strong on proving a point that you would ignore one of the most evil dictator of the 20th century?
Im sure you are strong on debate but please read again the STALIN entry.
Ps i used capital letters cuz you seem to enjoy it.
93 Hodari
June 5th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
I have to say, that Stalin must be the worst possible person to be presented on this list (from the view of atheists), since he's the second most evil person i've ever heard of. The most evil was of course: Vlad III the Impaler. I also think, that Napoleon wasn't THAT bad, compared to Jim yong Ill and all the other dictators on the list, and vice versa. Napoleon was bad to the goverment, the dictators to the people. But, it's up to you, if you start to wonder, wheter Napoleon was also bad to the people, being a dictator.
Also, the list of People who gave christianity bad name, there were loads of people much worse than these. And just to say, that dicounting leaders and dictaors, there are only 3 people left to conduct the list.
94 spidahmonkey
June 5th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Oh Kim Jong Il…. you're really pathetic.
95 mlr
June 5th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
True, but their atheism is a random variable that tells us little about why they did what they did. Other random variables that tell us little and can serve as list titles include:
People with X-chromosomes who give men a bad name
People who wear pants that give pants-wearing a bad name
Upright walkers who give bipedalism a bad name
Perhaps the most accurate title would be: 10 megalomaniacs.
96 Mrs. Antichrist
June 5th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Jim Jones wasn't an atheist. He was originally a Christian, who built his cult upon Christian teachings.
97 Eye-Licker
June 5th, 2010 at 7:20 am
You are the one that is wrong, lemaitre had little to do with the big bang theory. Hubble discovered that the universe was expanding, the only thing lemaitre did was point out the obvious, that the expansian must have a starting point, he didn’t even coin the term.
Religion has always supressed art that differs from their views, there would have been much more diversity in art history hadn’t it been for the church, and many artists went the way of the church because it was the easiest way to get a grant.
98 Shaniqua
June 5th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
However compile this list shows an astounding ignorance of the concept of atheism. It is not a belief system, it is free from any kind of doctrine, it doesn't compel individuals who are atheist to do anything.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods.
You could have similarly called this list the top ten most evil people who didn't belief in Santa Claus/the tooth fairy/the little blue gnomes under my bed.
99 ashleysweet
June 5th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
i am really surprised that "Madalyn Myrray O'Hair" isnt on here!! She actually DID crap in the name of atheism, and was named "the most hated woman in the world". Heres a really good article about her! she seemed like a big pain in the ass, if i may say so!! http://www.dunamai.com/articles/atheist/murder_of...
100 ashleysweet
June 5th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
oh, what i meant by "do things in the name of atheism" i was not bashing on the list. i just noticed alot of people saying these people dont belong because their crimes were not in the name of atheism. I agree with the list, just saying.
101 majava
June 5th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
If nothing can come out of nothing, where did the creator come from? If something can be said to have always existed, why can't that something be the universe? I don't understand the need for creator.
102 Ren
June 5th, 2010 at 7:40 am
While reading the comments it occured to me, it’s fun to watch the atheists squirm for a change and get upset about a list, the miserable lot!
103 majava
June 5th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
As far as Old Testament is concerned God doesn't have too much against massacre. And he definitely doesn't condemn killing.
104 Arsnl
June 5th, 2010 at 7:55 am
If you are romanian good for you. You dont know history. If you are not. Good for you. You dont know history.
105 Mike
June 5th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
I am amazed that to this day there are people who believe Hitler & his regime murdered more human beings than anyone else. They need to be aware of Stalin & Mao & their bloody slaughter too.
106 Arsnl
June 5th, 2010 at 7:58 am
@majava: well if you say the universe is the THING that always existed, then ill ask you to prouve it. In
physics you cant say something and not test it: you’ll only get string theory.
107 onecockerlady
June 5th, 2010 at 7:59 am
The problem I see here is the difference between not believing in "religion" and not believing in "god."
Putting restrictions on a religion, which Napoleon probably actually did to limit their influence and wealth as opposed to doing it for any philosophical reasons, only indicates his opposition to the church as an institution. His speeches and writings tend to indicate he was a deist.
Kim Jong Il, on the other hand, understands how religion can be used as the "opiate of the masses," particularly in a society that is dogmatic and controlled. It's hard to know for sure, but it seems to be that he himself has no theistic belief but works to ensure his population continues to see him as a god-like figure to preserve his power and feed his narcissism.
Being completely insane is not exclusive to the religious or the atheistic. I don't see the list as a condemnation of atheism. Stalin was an atheist as was Dahmer, and they were both clearly sociopaths. Jim Jones was a communist and also a clear sociopath. On the other hand, there are also hundreds of priests who molested children and there are preachers who completely screw up people's lives through their interpretation of religious belief. Millions have died through various means in the name of various gods and goddesses and prophets and probably small furry things that wiggle on the end of a stick.
Insanity is a human trait.
108 MiSaNtHrOpE
June 5th, 2010 at 7:59 am
OK, did any of these men commit these acts specifically *in the name of atheism in equal analogy to killing in the name of God*?
Few of these men did what they did specifically in the name of atheism. Albert Camus in The Rebel describes many of the ideologies to which the above men subscribed as religions in themselves (specifically Communism and Fascism/Nazism). Jim Jones is the only person on this list who could almost claim to be doing what the religious do, but it is ironic because he created a religion in order to do so.
109 Tyler
June 5th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
We can list many atrocities done in the name of religious belief — the Crusades, witch trials, suicide cults, Islamic terrorism, many deaths that could have been avoided if people sought medical care and not prayer, not to mention all of the terrible deeds committed in the Bible. And that's just scratching the surface. Can you, in return, name just as many atrocities done in the name of non-religious or anti-religious belief? If you can, please do.
110 Tyler
June 5th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
That is still only 1 out of 10, compared to the 8 out of 10 on the Christianity list. Also, Jim Jones is on both lists. Seems that there's a little difference of opinion there.
111 Arsnl
June 5th, 2010 at 8:06 am
@opiucha: and for 10.000 years we only had paintings on cave walls depicting animals running. Whats your point?
@eye licker: yes maybe, should have, etc etc etc. Can you honestly say that david’s statue is worth less than whatever wathol made? Its called cultural heritage buster. The greeks had it romans also. Thats what humanity did. Represent the gods. Saying it would have been different without religions is like saying we would have had relativity theory 10.000 years ago if einstein would have been born 10.000 years ago. Its a stupid statement we can safely say.
112 Beon
June 5th, 2010 at 8:09 am
#68, jfrater: “In fact, logic and reason prove that God must exist – nothing comes from nothing, therefore there has to be something outside of physical reality which is the first creator.”
I didnt know this web site was run by a Christian fundamentalist.
“Nothing comes from nothing”. That is trivially true for how the universe behaves as it currently is. When we say we “created a house” we are only meaning that “through the lapse of time, we rearranged matter/energy in to new forms”.
Talking about the very fabric of the universe; time, space and matter/energy is a totally different subject. How do we even know that it CAN be created? Its just an assumption that our primate brain makes, because we ourselves can “create” things out of smaller things. Our brains makes up models of the world, but just think about how many times in the past those models have been wrong, and we have had to work against our intuition as science makes new progress.
What does it mean to say “before the creation of the universe”, when BEFORE only makes sense when there already is time? How can we know that matter/energy even can be created, when it has never been observed and there are no models to explain how?
The correct answer is “We dont know how the universe came into existence, but we are working on it. It looks like it was always here”.
113 Fyrzon
June 5th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
People are just pointing out that the lists title isn't exactly true to the articles in it. As people didn't do this in the name of atheism so it makes no since how they could have given atheism a bad name. Also, I'd like you to go anywhere on the internet that has to do with atheism (like a youtube video, a forum, etc.) and see how many Christians get mad at it. It's not a matter of religion, it's a matter of the attitude of the person itself, and most people are pretty hostile while on the internet, because they know their actions rarely have consequence.
114 Tyler
June 5th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
It takes a miserable person to call any group of people "a miserable lot."
115 Arsnl
June 5th, 2010 at 8:19 am
@cyn. That actually doesnt make any sense. What are comparing? After 200 years will your grand grand children start to make body counts on religion vs eating fatty foods?
A killing does not happen because the person is a theist or not. It involves multiple factors and religion is just easy to name.
Im sorry to say but your comment is stupid. Its like saying counting the wtc like a body count. Its insensitive.
116 Forrest Greene
June 5th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
Does your remarkable compassion & forbearance stem from religious beliefs?
117 Voltaire
June 5th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
"In fact, logic and reason prove that God must exist – nothing comes from nothing, therefore there has to be something outside of physical reality which is the first creator."
Ah this is nothing. In another list on this site jfrater seriously insists that denying the existence of Jesus is the same as denying the Holocaust. This guy is so funny, I like him. Always a good laugh =)
Here is the quote:
"Regardless of whether you believe he performed miracles, there is an enormous amount of documentary evidence that Jesus existed. As I said before, to deny that is the same as the revisionists who deny the holocaust happened. It suits them to deny it so they do – in the face of enormous evidence to the contrary"
118 The Major
June 5th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Is everyone who holds a contrary point to you a 'christian fundamentalist'?
Also, thank you for telling us the 'correct answer' to questions that mankind has tried to answer throughout it's entire history.
119 Fanny
June 5th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
The Kinsey Institute's response to questions of how statistics about children were gathered is here (http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/about/controversy%202.htm):
"Kinsey clearly stated in his male volume the sources of information about children's sexual responses. The bulk of this information was obtained from adults recalling their own childhoods. Some was from parents who had observed their children, some from teachers who had observed children interacting or behaving sexually, and Kinsey stated that there were nine men who he had interviewed who had sexual experiences with children who had told him about how the children had responded and reacted. We believe that one of those men was the source of the data listed in the book."
120 Fanny
June 5th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
So while there were apparently a few subjects interviewed who had abused children, they did not do it at Kinsey's request, nor did Kinsey himself experiment on children to gather data. Further, while some sick people have probably used Kinsey's research as a way to justify their own sick behavior when they abuse children, in no way did he or his researchers solicit or condone it.
I got that information from a Google search. The list writer has a clear bias and didn't bother to check her facts.
121 Ricky
June 5th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
When a religious person commits a crime it is often done because of their beliefs-fundies bombing abortion clinics, crusaders slaying innocents because they won't convert, witch hunts, suicide bombers, spreading a message that is heretical to the church, martyrs who wouldn't renounce their personal belief systems-the list goes on.
The atheists in this list are mostly committing crimes in a show of corruption from the power their positions bring. Which means, the cause of their badness isn't their lack of belief in a deity, but the powers given to them to allow escape from retaliation in the standard sense.
Dahmer said he acted the way he did because he found no reason to adjust his behavior based on the fact he believed there to be no ultimate judger of sins, but he was a sociopath as well. Most serial killers on record were religious, and the only reason Dahmer is singled out is because this is a list of atheists, not a list of bad people in general. Dahmer may have reconciled his actions with himself with the fact that he wouldn't conform to a religious person's god-induced restraint, but he would have tortured, ate and raped the bodies of his victims regardless of religious belief. None of it was CAUSED by his atheism, but all of the other traits he shared in common with most every other serial killer.
No prejudice here, just logic.
People don't kill for a lack of god, but people certainly DO kill for deities.
122 James
June 5th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
I could see early on that this list was going to be controversial, so I wanted to include a lighthearted comment. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being conservative or liberal. The problem comes when one is so conservative or liberal that they say or do absolutely braindead things.
123 Ricky
June 5th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
Indecisive and close minded to the plight of your fellow man.
124 Cyn
June 5th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
i would recommend you refrain from personal attacks if you want to be taken seriously. as for your statements…you need to be more specific as to what bearing fatty food has on religion. i do not see the correlation. as for your statement re: multiple factors that too is not clear please specify. & i see absolutely no connection to using WTC as a metaphor in this context. given this system of commenting please direct any questions or responses specifically to that person not just in the body of a responding comment to someone else. it is one of many of the aspects of this system that is difficult to track & yes that was not directed at you Arsnl…just a general observation re: this comment system.
125 Voltaire
June 5th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
The 'correct answer' lol. I must have overread that. I thought I was the most arrogant person here.
But when I think about it, it must be a very close call between jfrater, you and me -.-
126 Ricky
June 5th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
I think it should also be noted that Napoleon was elected leader of France before crowning himself emperor, so obviously the country wanted him in power.
127 Voltaire
June 5th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
I'm an atheist myself but I think you are making it to easy for yourself.
You (like so many) are implying that the atheistic beliefs of those persons had nothing to do with their actions. This is of course not true. Your beliefs are shaping you like nothing else.
Let's take your megalomania for example. It's certainly no coincidence that so many megalomaniacs are atheists. A megalomaniac dreams of omnipotence and unlimited power.
There are two main ways in 'achieving' this:
1) You are declaring yourself as God or god-like like the Pharaos, Jesus, etc.
2) You are declaring that there is no God and that you are the most poweful human in the world =)
128 FlameHorse
June 5th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
I haven't read all the comments, but Bill Maher is tyrannical enough to deserve a spot on here, as well. Great list, Sally! I'm proud to have spawned a sequel.
129 Derp
June 5th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
I bet they all ate bread.
That gives bread a bad name, too.
(Not complaining about the list, just about the way (religious) folks argue about those people being atheists.)
130 Voltaire
June 5th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
"So what does me being agnostic and a believer in conservative government make me? "
A smart person =). I'm an atheist voting for conservative governments ever since. And I know a lot people who do the same. Not to mention famous examples like Rand, Hayek, Friedman, etc. etc.
131 Arsnl
June 5th, 2010 at 9:11 am
@cyn:im using a mobile version so the commenting is difficult.
I say your comment is stupid because you say things like “body count” like its a game. Its very childish. Ive used the wtc example cuz like you said. Its just a body count. I could have also used the holocaust. We can both agree that it was not the best way to express an idea.
Multiple factors: if you use religion to claim power, is it religios fault?how many killings/wars happened because some forces collided. Like desire of power, land etc etc. There i see religion being used as a tool.
I also generaly think people can become fanatics because its in their nature.
If you are an atheist you can say that societies created religion. So its society’s fault if women or children have a lower status. Its the fault of HUMANS. Not religion. Thats a fault that happens alot with atheist. They say humans created religion. Then they say religion persecutes women. Ergo religion is “bad”. They dont say well humans are “bad”. They say religion is “bad”.
Ps i will not retract my statement that your previous comment was stupid. Thats how i see it.
132 bonbonvie
June 5th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Umm.. because Kim Jong Il himself sanctified the deification? That would imply that he does believe in some kind of deity, therefore negating his atheist status.
133 bonbonvie
June 5th, 2010 at 4:15 pm
Apologies for the error about who wrote the lists, but as this is your site, what you choose to publish represents you whether you want it to or not. As for the Che list, that was biased to the hilt and you know it, claims of jokes to mask the fact or not.
134 Victor
June 5th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Mmmm… when people commit bad things in the name of their religion, that's when you can truly say that those people give their religion a bad name. For example: Islamic extremists. They do their actions in the name of their religion, not in the name of other ideal.
Pius IX, for example, wanted to forbid freedom of religion in Mexico. It wanted Mexico to be strictly Catholic. That's another person that gives a bad name to his religion.
For most of the people in the list, they did their wrong doings because of communism or other ideal. You can't really say that they gave atheism a bad name.
By the way, even if Hitler was a devout religious person you wouldn't be able to truly say that he gave his religion a bad name. He did his acts because of Nazi Ideology. Not religion.
135 Victor
June 5th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
LOL, yes. So is Jim Jones an atheist or a theist?
But definitely agree with the comment of Danielle, most people that commit crimes believe in god (totally expected since most people are religious); however, they commit their crimes for reasons that aren't related to their belief in god or their religion. You can't say that those people give their religion a bad name.
136 Saint Splatt
June 5th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Didn't Mussolini help give the Roman Catholic Church the piece of land that eventually became the Vatican? Oh well, just another business transaction, I guess.
137 Eye-Licker
June 5th, 2010 at 9:55 am
Afraid you misunderstood there, chap. Had it not been for Christianity we would have different arts, not less. The church has not been a patron of the arts, it has merely guided it in a certain direction. Beethoven’s music would have been no less magnificent had he been a atheist, agnostic, deist or pantheist.
And it’s not at all like your statement.
138 Victor
June 5th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
"I said this very early in the comments – the Atheists will say that these people did not commit their crimes in the name of atheism – but neither do most Christians."
That's correct. Most Christians that end up committing crimes is because of reasons that don't involve their religion at all. However, there have been Christians that have committed crimes because of their belief in god or their religion. (A warped view of Christianity if you want)
Take for example the Lord Resistance Army in Uganda that actually commits terrorist acts. That can be an example of Christians giving their religion a bad name. Just like Al-Qaeda gives Islam a bad name. Wouldn't you agree?
As for Hitler, I don't think he gives religion a bad name. His acts had nothing to do with religion, rather they were the result of his Nazism. However, the Catholic Church didn't exactly oppose/condemn Hitler during his time.
139 WhiteDragon
June 5th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
it saddens me
140 Victor
June 5th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
"Didn't Mussolini help give the Roman Catholic Church the piece of land that eventually became the Vatican? Oh well, just another business transaction, I guess."
Mussolini is a very strange case. He in fact said he was an atheist and denounced the Catholic Church and religion overall. Yet, he actually made sure that his children made the communion. I guess that's what happens when you have a very religious mother and an anti-religious father. LOL.
Definitely, though, he made treaties with the Catholic Church. However, those treaties weren't treaties made out of Catholic Faith or Respect for the Church.
141 Aaron
June 5th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Bill Maher isn't an atheist. He said that atheism just mirrors the certitude of religion. He called himself an apathetic theist since he doesn't care about the thing at all
142 Tori
June 5th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
Completely agree.
143 Human
June 5th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Even god himself is an atheist. And how many people have died( And still continue to die) in his name?
God would've been ideal for the bonus entry.
144 undaunted warrior 1
June 5th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
I dont think this topic was very well researched
145 Caity Gosselin
June 5th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
I <3 you and this list JF
I must say, I was SO excited to see it today. (Not to say that I was a little bit depressed after reading it, because WOW, these people really do give atheists/non-theists a horrible image.
146 monyetbunglon
June 5th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Atheism is anarchy…..
"10 evil atheist" is a suitable name for this list….
147 Victor
June 5th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
"Perhaps you can explain then the fact that he put severe restrictions on religion. It is one thing to speak and another thing to believe. Actions speak louder than words. As for that last phrase, that is clearly the comment of a politician before he introduces an anti-rich rule in order to convince them that it is for their own good when it is probably not."
Have you actually looked on how were things run during Napoleon's time? The Catholic Church and Other Christian Churches influenced a played a big role in government. In fact, during that time, the Catholic Church opposed freedom of religion. Fighting against Religious Institutions' abuses does not mean that you are an atheist.
For example, in Mexico many people fought for making this nation a Secular one. In order to do that they had to fight the Catholic Church, because it opposed Religious Freedom and because it had privileges within the nation. Most of those people that fought to make this country a Secular One were Catholics themselves.
148 Caity Gosselin
June 5th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
They don't always have to. People will attribute a person's lunacy to the fact that they are simply an 'atheist'. As if it were synonymous with Satanist.. Therefore, it unfortunately helps to propagate the ignorance further along.
149 Victor
June 5th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
"A smart person =). I'm an atheist voting for conservative governments ever since. And I know a lot people who do the same. Not to mention famous examples like Rand, Hayek, Friedman, etc. etc."
Yes well, they do not do so because of their Conservative leaning, rather, they do so because of Economic Policies and Theories. And seriously, I don't see why people make the link between Austrian Economics and Conservativism, or between Libertarian Ideology and Conservativism. They are just so different.
Conservatives do not really endorse "free market policies in which the government doesn't interfere", nor do they support individual freedoms to the extent that Libertarians do.
150 Cyn
June 5th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
a coupla links –
More People Have Been Killed in the Name of Atheism & Secularism than Religion? http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/p/Atheis...
and then a more general site for anyone interested in dealing w/ theists & apologetics http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main...
151 jmc1234
June 5th, 2010 at 10:37 am
This list has raised a whole heap of other questions, eg when becoming atheist or theist, has one reasonably considered both sides of the debate? When someone does something terrible in the name of a cause/belief, does this mean that the cause/belief itself is wrong?
Whilst some of the details of this list are pretty questionable (at best), at least we can still debate this and come out of it “listverse buddies” and the end.
152 Karen
June 5th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
While I agree with the fact that this is mostly a list of people commiting crimes and horrible actions while at the same time, unrelatedly, being atheists (with the possible exception of Dahmer), I also have to stand up against this kind of generalisation of religious people. While there definately has been numerous cases of horrible things being done in the name of religion, or under the guise of religion, the same thing can be said for other views, such as political views or national disagrements, and it doesn't immediately make the religion evil – that is a wholy different discussion. It should be obvious that all religious people are not evil, in the same manner that all atheists are not evil. It should be self-explanatory.
While I'm on the subject, I actually have a hard time imagining someone commiting crimes or evil actions in the name of atheism, simply because I believe, as an atheist myself, that atheism isn't a belief or an "religion" in the same manner as christianity or hinduism – it is an absence of religion, an absence of belief – it's in many ways nothing at all, a bit like the way anarchy is the absence of organized society. In this line of thinking, I don't believe someone can actually act "in the name of atheism", because that would be acting in the name of nothing. In no way am I by this defending atheists as infallable and perfect – we are humans just like any other person – or saying that religion is evil without exceptions; I am simply asking wether a person can commit a crime in the name of nothing.
153 Victor
June 5th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
"Putting restrictions on a religion, which Napoleon probably actually did to limit their influence and wealth as opposed to doing it for any philosophical reasons, only indicates his opposition to the church as an institution. His speeches and writings tend to indicate he was a deist."
That's correct. For example, the Founding Fathers of the U.S. wanted a government that allowed freedom of religion and didn't make laws that stemmed from religious beliefs or prevented them. They were clearly against the Church influencing governments. However, they were Christians and deists.
By this list's standards, you could say that they were atheist because they opposed Religious Institution's abuses… *rolleyes*
154 Cyn
June 5th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
a game? body count is not a game. it is a phrase i grew up w/ watching the news re: the Vietnam war…so it is not a game but a heavily weighted & tragic phrase. agreed – religion is a tool. a brutally used tool. i have my own opinions re: how religion is used against women & children that is not pertinent to this list. as for you not retracting your comment…that is your opinion as it is mine that it was a poor word choice. so we're done. i posted another comment w/ a link much more pertinent to this list plus a link to a more general site..which ends my commenting on this list.
155 Victor
June 5th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Saying that atheism is a religion is like saying that not playing sports is a sport itself or it's like saying that bald is a hair color. It's just plain wrong.
156 General Tits Von Chodehoffen
June 5th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
If there was a god why wouldn't it believe in itself? You're retarded.
157 Surya
June 5th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
If I tell a lie, and happen to be wearing a blue tie at that time, then the author of this list would say, "he is telling a lie because he is wearing a blue tie.
158 General Tits Von Chodehoffen
June 5th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
Cool list. Nice to see our buddy Kim Jong Il back on another list.
159 Doc
June 5th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Hey James!… Did you know that Barack Obama is right now attempting to gobble up little babies at night after he has sex with your wife?!
I know right… You're an idiot!
160 magnumto
June 5th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Ah jeez, everyone here outta know exactly what the author meant by "giving Atheists a bad name". It's like saying Hitler gave Germans a bad name. He did, but not because he was German, but because he was a twit. It's a figure of speech.
161 thinklogically
June 5th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
People seem to be under the impression that all religion does is make people torture and kill each other in the name of that religion. However, these people ignore all the good deeds people do in the name of religion (Mother Teresa) and only focus on issues of religious intolerance. Religion only becomes a vehicle for violence when it becomes a political institution instead of a religious one (As Christianity did and as Islam does in some parts of the world), and as for the intolerance religion supposedly generates, intolerance and fear of those who are different is part of human nature, and if there were no religions people would still discriminate against each other- religion is simply a convenient outlet for intolerant urges. While I agree that the poster of this list has shown only that the people on the list give themselves and their governments bad names, I believe the motivation for creating this list was to show that atheists can be evil, too, and that just because some people "give religion a bad name" does not mean that religions are inherently evil and useless. Like what someone said earlier- classifying people's morals and decency based on whether they are religious or atheist is like deciding that people who eat bread are all evil because they eat bread. Since there are good and evil people who are both religious and atheists, it is clear that a person's personality and morals, as well as their mental stability, is the determining factor in whether they are good or evil- no sane or moral person would ever take the literal teachings of any major world religion and interpret them as instructions to hate and kill- only wackjobs do that.
162 bassbait
June 5th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
“all religions have been made by men”
Ironic quote from Napoleon. If he was Atheist, he is kind of being a hypocrite. It's not like Atheism predates mankind or something, because Atheism was made by men too, so he's still succumbing to the ideas of man. To be fair though, religion being made by man doesn't necessarily mean GOD was made up by man, because it really isn't specific enough. Still, it seems quite likely that Napoleon was Atheist.
Anyway, it's only fair to make this list, because the point of these lists are not that Atheism and Christianity are bad, but that people can BE bad, regardless of what they believe. Is eating pork bad? To some, yes, to some no, but if you can somehow turn eating pork into an excuse to kill people, then that IS bad, and, ignoring cults, that doesn't happen within religions.
163 Alex
June 5th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
I believe to have read somewhere that Stalin was a deeply religious man. I am not saying that he gives religion a bad name, he never ordered any executions in the name of god. One thing that I know for sure is that my mother who grew up in Soviet Russia comes from a religious family and that they always went to mass, etc. all her life. As far as I know, religion wasn't outlawed in the Soviet Union, even though it was seen as being against the official ideology.In general I would take anything written about the Soviet Union with a grain of salt, because, after all, they were supposedly the enemy of the free world etc. , so now it's probably impossible to distinguish the truth from cold war propaganda. The enemy was being demonized (the same was obviously happening on the other side as well – uncultured american children dying because of unaffordable social services and education…), and since history is written by the victors….
Another thing regarding crimes commited in the name of atheism (for those who claim that there were actually acts in the name of atheism): Christianity relies on being the oppressed, repressed and suffering. You know, Martyrdom and everything. Christianity is the dominant religion of the western world. Thus, I think that we should regard accounts of repressed christians with a bit of scepticism.
Also, Hitlers motto for women was Kinder, Kueche, Kirche – Children, Kitchen, CHURCH. I repeat, CHURCH. Religion was regarded as an aspect of patriotism (like in the US today). About Hitlers own religion I don't know anything, apart from the fact that he came from Austria (or suthern Germany – don't remember exactly), the most religious (catholic) German-speaking area.
164 Ren
June 5th, 2010 at 11:38 am
@ 114
That’s true, I shouldn’t have said that. But I do have to say that I think atheists get some type of enjoyment out of trying to make religious folks, especially Christians, feel stupid.
165 Popst
June 5th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
im sorry, but stalin did so much for russia-he basically turned the entire place from useless farms to actual cities…calling him evil may have some basis-but he did more good for russia than evil. and there are plenty more capitalist leaders who have done much worse and killed more people for the simple sake of money.
166 here and gone
June 5th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Dawkins Delusion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERyh9YYEis
167 Jerry
June 5th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
Wow James really classy. BTW how watch fox news for a week before you embarass yourse;f by repeating lies your liberal masters are spoon feeding you.
168 Gladiator
June 5th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Hitler was NOT religious. But he had something called a "messiah complex." This was proven by the American Secret Services, when they did a profile of him, during the war. Which means that the person sees himself as a saviour. Hitler saw himself as "The Saviour of Germany." Which proves just how crazy the man was.
169 StevefromWI
June 5th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
"and there are plenty more capitalist leaders who have done much worse and killed more people for the simple sake of money."
And they are…
170 Emily
June 5th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
Maybe a good bonus to add to the list would be the kids who were responsible for the Columbine shootings? I heard (maybe it's a rumor) that they asked several kids whether or not they believed in God, and when they'd answer 'yes', they would be shot. That sounds like a pretty crappy thing to do in the name of Atheism…
171 Fodland
June 5th, 2010 at 8:27 pm
Hmmm.
I can't see how some of these give atheism a bad name…. Kim Jong Il isn't evil because he is atheist….He's evil because he's bat s*** crazy
The only people giving atheism a bad name are those who would openly walk up to someone who says they're a member of a given religion and say: "WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN IS SUPERSTITIOUS NONSENSE"
172 TheOgraman
June 5th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
The difference is that Religious people do bad in the name of religion.
Atheist don't do bad things in the name of Atheism.
See the difference ? .. therefore this list is 90 percent invalid.
173 Armadillotron
June 5th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
"Stalin did good for Russia." Maybe. Exclude the fact that he killed tens of millions of people through man-made famines and purges, had churches blown up and was a military fuckwit, he was a great guy. So just because he modernised the USSR, that makes him good? So by that logic, if Hitler got rid of hyperinflation and mass-unemployment made Germans feel good about themselves and made Germany into a military power that makes him good? Don`t be stupid.
174 Zach 'Hopz' Hopkins
June 5th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
As an American liberal, I firmly disagree with the above statement; for some people, religion is all they have and would totally fall apart without it. Lets not make any hasty generalizations.
175 mlr
June 5th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
or 3) You are untethered from reality.
You are looking for rational thought on the part of people who think eating people (Dahmer) or mass executions (Stalin, Pol Pot, Zedong, etc.) are reasonable activities. Of course megalomaniacs are likely to reject a god, or, just as likely, embrace a god fervently and declare themselves that god's representative on earth. That is the nature of megalomania. Atheism or fervent belief are not the cause, megalomania is. Adherence to or rejection of religion are symptoms.
Religious people who do horrible things in the name of religion are "people who give religion a bad name." Religious people who do horrible things because they are horrible people are just horrible people. Likewise, atheists who do horrible things because they are horrible people are just horrible people.
Surely there is an example of someone somewhere who has done horrible things in the name of atheism. I am not sure this list contains one example of such a person, however. Even those who sought to wipe out religion did not seem to do it because of a particular rejection of a god; instead, they reasonably determined that it was a threat to their power. Megalomania.
176 Lisa
June 5th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
This just seems more like a list of bad dictators with a few non-dictators thrown in for good measure. Where's Madilyn Murray O'Hare or Richard Dawkins?
177 Mindymoo
June 5th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
The idiocy of this poorly written and error-filled list makes my brain hurt. Ugh, Listverse, why are you posting such ridiculousness on your site? Running out of decent, fact-based and somewhat interesting lists to publish?
178 The Major
June 5th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
It's not so much doing 'bad things in the name of atheism'. It's more a case of their atheism allowing them to carry out such extremities.
For example, let's take Communist Russia. The leaders' atheism enabled them to take a scientific approach to humanity – if that meant consigning certain men to the ash heap of history for the greater good, so be it.
It would be difficult for an atheist to argue against genocide to protect world resources and to control population, as arguments for the sancity of life etc would have to be ignored if one was to take a scientific, materialist approach
179 The Major
June 5th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
Really? Is wearing a blue tie the same as reaching the conclusion that there are no moral consequences to our actions and that there is no sanctity to human life?
If, for example, you had an abusive childhood which often required you to lie, then that could be suggested as the reason that you grew up to be a liar. However, if you wore a blue tie, that would have no effect.
It's the cause and effect factor.
180 therush
June 5th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Napoleon gives atheism a good name because Napoleon is the realness.
181 Jeff
June 5th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
This was a poorly written list. It seems that the list maker just Googled the term "bad people" and then tried to work backwards to prove they were not religious. None of the descriptions imply that anything these people did was connected to their atheism. They did not kill to rid the world of all religious people or cause atrocities to prove to people there was no God. This list makes little sense.
182 HiBillyMaysHere!
June 5th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Most of these people on the list committed these atrocities in the name of Communism, Fascism, and for political reasons.
183 Steven Lawrence
June 5th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
Nice circular reasoning, oouchan. Reason and logic, eh? Like Richard "argument by ridicule" Dawkins, a believer in a reverse assertion, prover of negatives (a logical impossibility) . Not just disbelief — "scoffing disbelief". His true weakness is that he shares lacks logic and reason, just like many believers. The difference between Dawkins and them? Believers accept that they are just that. A "disbeliever", as opposed to agnostic, who accepts that they don't know one way or the other, has concluded a negative in the absence of proof (yet another logical fallacy, since absence of proof is not proof of absence).
jfrater was exactly correct, Dawkins is completely out of his depth. He makes atheism look like a silly side of the same believer coin. Dawkins should have made #1 on this list.
184 Cosmo312
June 5th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
This is a pretty pathetic reply. You are saying the people killed for reasons that could be interpreted as atheistic by someone who didn't really understand why they did it, and that the atheism was just an excuse or coincidence. Most religious people who kill will try to make it religious when the real cause rarely is. Recent terrorist attacks, they arent religiously motivated, religion is an excuse, only morons who watch FOX news 24/7 think they are motivated just by their "evil" religion. Yet even though it could even be totally unrelated to their religion, it still gives it a bad name. "I do not agree that that these people gave atheism a bad name." yes they do. Not to you, but you're an ignorant bigot.
"And i have a feeling the the person who compiled the list is a christian. "
They person who wrote the "10 people who give christianity a bad name" article was a christian too.
Stop thinking atheism is perfect. Of course people will kill because of it, of course it is imperfect and certain religions do things better than it. You are not excempt from anything because you are an atheist.
185 oouchan
June 5th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
He is not out of his depth. What I stated is true.
You stated that absence of proof is not proof of absence…that works the same way you know. We are still searching for answers…logical ones, not fairy tales. This separates us from agnostics in that regard.
Believers stopped learning. They found their answer and are happy with it. Some of us aren't happy with that answer and are searching for a more reasonable one. Many of us keep quiet about this and keep searching, while Dawkins doesn't. Does that make him worthy of this list? No. He just doesn't want religious dogma shoved down our throats anymore. Can't blame him when I keep getting hounded every weekend by the religious groups in my neighborhood. They can't accept the fact that I don't want them on my property. Period.
I have no problem with someone wanting to believe in god or gods or what have you…..just leave ME out of it.
186 schnobs
June 5th, 2010 at 11:32 pm
ive followed this website since it only had about 10 lists and never thrown in any sort of opinion. but i dont think i can let this one slide. hate the the list, love the majority of the comments. sallyh….hitler was a vegetarian, doesa that make all vegetarians jewish hating murderes?? lets be logical folks.
187 Liz
June 5th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Most conservatives don't honestly think he's the Antichrist, just like I know most Liberals don't honestly think Bush was. It's all just propaganda from our own parties — they're trying to pit us against each other.
188 Bill
June 5th, 2010 at 11:35 pm
What makes you think Napoleon was an atheist? Consider the following web link that holds an opposite view:
http://www.adherents.com/people/pn/Napoleon.html
One fine night Napoleon, on deck, amid a clatter of materialism (his generals were dismissing the notion of a God; a Supreme Being), Bonaparte pointed to the stars, and said, “You may talk as long as you please, gentlemen, but who made all that?”
189 mowi
June 5th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
good list, bad title.
suggestion: 10 people who did bad stuff, which religious people try to link to their disbelief in any gods.
me fail english that's unpossible
190 Liz
June 5th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
There's nothing wrong with that sentence. "that much myself" however, is technically improper. You cannot substitute "that" for "very". Or you could eliminate "that"
191 Liz
June 5th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
Your best source is google? And it must be fact? Did you ever think that maybe the Kinsey Institute would be biased FOR Kinsey? Shocker there!
192 B1a5ph3m3r
June 5th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
I disagree, lets argue!
193 HiBillyMaysHere!
June 5th, 2010 at 11:48 pm
It's a myth that Hitler was a vegetarian.
194 stlthunderbird
June 6th, 2010 at 12:01 am
I cannot believe that I am the only one who noticed that Jim Jones is listed on the "10 People Who Give Christianity a Bad Name," and "10 People Who Give Atheism a Bad Name." Something is not right in Dodge City,
195 Kaba-Giga
June 6th, 2010 at 12:05 am
I don't know if that's the english translation but if you said Holodomor in Russian it sounds like you're saying "Death by the Cold". Shouldn't it be "Golodomor"?
196 jfrater
June 5th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
In fact – you are the only who DIDN’T read the full entry for Jim Jones in which it specifically STATES that he is on both lists and tells you the reason
197 Jille
June 5th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
@Danielle Christians who have read the bible from start to finish understand that it is a history lesson, and everything changed with the arrival of Jesus (“You have heard it said … But I tell you now … “). Unfortunately, Those who take from the old testament should still be offering up lambs at the altar. “Cherry picking” is for the homophobes on the far right and Westboro Baptist. Most Christians are loving, caring people who accept everyone as they are.
198 darkhorse729
June 6th, 2010 at 12:27 am
Mother Theresa? Ha! You're gonna have to do better than that…
199 stlthunderbird
June 6th, 2010 at 12:31 am
Well, pulling my foot out of my mouth. Thank you Sir for pointing that out. Somehow my eyes skipped right over that.
200 Beon
June 6th, 2010 at 12:32 am
@The Major: Christian fundamentalists are the ones usually asserting stuff like this. Moderate Christians are usually more careful with how it is worded.
"The correct answer": This is not only me talking, this is the entire scientific community. This is not arrogant, this is just saying that we dont know, and lets not pretend that we do just to feel comfortable. Lets be honest about it, and lets not start our sentences with "In fact,… " to try to elevate delusions to facts.
@Voltaire: I would say that who ever wrote that stuff is delusional. There is tons of material written on this subject on the internet.
BTW, I think that ListVerse lists would be better if they required source references, like how Wikipedia is done. Sometimes it looks like the authors just pulled stuff out of thin air.
201 oliveralbq
June 6th, 2010 at 12:33 am
jamie——-
i know, very well, your opinions on religion and over time i have noticed that you have a great affinity to argue your points on this subject.
which is great — a lot of ppeople to that here
which is why i really really really wanted you to add this topic as a bonus to the paradoxes list from last week — that would haave been quite interesting
r
202 lo1580
June 6th, 2010 at 12:50 am
where is the source material for the claim the alfred kinsey was a sadistic fraud who sexually exploited children?
unless such claims can be supported using multiple reliable sources i say such claims are slanderous and should be removed from this site. listverse should not be in the business of slander…..
"SallyH" perhaps you are too prudish to accept that kinsey's work on human sexuality was important and groundbreaking, not sadistic, exploitative, or fraudulent.
and with jim jones you need a citation for that quote too. you do realize the concept of "using the CHURCH to bring people to ATHEISM" is a stupid oxymoron, right?
starting a RELIGIOUS cult is not something one does as a result of/because of being an atheist, so none of jim jones' actions reflect on atheism in any way, he should be removed from the list.
Sally, it seems you don't really understand much about the topic you chose for your list.
why was this even selected for publication?
203 lo1580
June 6th, 2010 at 12:55 am
no, jamie, jones should not be here as his RELIGIOUS CULT doesn't "give atheism a bad name", which is what the list claims to be about.
seriously, even if he was a con-man who didn't believe the religious ideas he fed his followers, his action were religious in nature. have you ever read a single account of someone who was drawn to join his cult -at any stage in its history- because it was an "atheist cult"? this matters in the context of what the list claims to be about……..
204 bacanaso
June 6th, 2010 at 12:58 am
not all atheists are commies, but all commies are atheists
205 bacanaso
June 6th, 2010 at 1:02 am
yeah and that 1 caused more deaths than the 8 'christians' COMBINED
206 riotreality
June 5th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
Stalin, Zedong, Pol Pot, and Mussolini… As a high school sophomore, I've been studying like crazy for my Regents exams. All four of those men are covered in the study guide given by my teacher, and I read the respective sections of my textbook for each. Atheism was never mentioned for any of them.
That's not to say that I doubt their lack of religion or anything! I've known for quite some time about all of that, and I'm not trying to deny it. What I am trying to express is that I don't think their atheism played that important a roll in their deeds (as opposed to, say, the conflicts in the Middle East having some roots in Islam and Judaism).
207 DaveM
June 6th, 2010 at 1:04 am
Just like Bush and/or Cheney were Hitler, Nazis, Fascists, Satan and all the other names thrown at them by the fanatics on the other side of the fence for the past 10 years. Stupid hyperbole like that has no partisan boundaries.
208 oliveralbq
June 5th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
oddly, there are many people who think in the way surya described.
its commonly known as —superstition
the parallels in the cause effect relationship are there
–if he has on a blue tie, you cannot trust him—-(because he has a blue tie on)
–if i see my bride on our wedding day, the union is doomed–(becaus i saw the bride)
–if i break a mirror, i will have 7 years of bad luck— (cause you broke the mirror)
–a lot in sports too
–if you talk about a no-hitter in baseball, then it will not happen (because you jinxed it)
i have never really understood this line of reasoning
209 Fanny
June 6th, 2010 at 1:11 am
Google isn't a source, my dear, it's a search engine. And yes, that was the Kinsey Institute's rebuttal to the accusations so casually thrown out as if they were fact. If you have any evidence that those accusations are true, I would be happy to read and consider it, but since the statements in the original list were made without citing any source or backing it up in any way, I got the distinct impression that the list writer couldn't be bothered to read the source material before condemning it.
210 oliveralbq
June 6th, 2010 at 1:24 am
expected to see salman rushdie — maybe the funniest athiest out there —- eats ham then walks outside and waits for the lightening in the sky to strike him dead.
didnt happen, so he proclaimed his brilliance.
smart-ass
211 lordofreimes
June 6th, 2010 at 1:28 am
If you look at the list at "christians who give a bad name", the people on that list all PREACHED christianity in some way or form. I'm sure you could find way worse people, tyrants and murderers for example (such as those on this list) if you looked hard enough. There certainly ain't alot of balance between these two lists.
This list is more like "10 Atheists who were REALLY REALLY bad". By implying that the simply being an Atheist is enough to give Atheism a bad name is ridiculous and adheres to a horrendously higher standard than that of the other list.
212 oliveralbq
June 6th, 2010 at 1:46 am
sorry—didnt mean to hit send on that last comment
oh yes sir, i have more
—john malkovich says some awfully dumb shit — making atheists look like idiots.
—euhemerus — believed the gods were like—-tribal chiefs or something — again — made them look like idiots — as well as insane
—barack obama sr. —
——including the winner of the best athiest comment — lance armstrong "if there was a god i'd still have both of my nuts"
funny, yes — but that is such confounded idea that they used asinine jumps in logic to justify their viewpoint.
213 Karl
June 6th, 2010 at 2:09 am
Um… where's Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens??? Aren't they the ones who also gave atheism a bad name? And also I would like to point out that it's the individual, not the individual's religion, whose responsible for the action.
214 emilleejoyce
June 6th, 2010 at 2:24 am
I think, just to clarify, that under Jim Jones, you should add forced cyanide consumption as well as mass suicide. It is a well known fact that many of the people who died in Jonestown were forced to take cyanide. So, not only is he a cult leader, he is a murderer.
215 _-DAN-_
June 6th, 2010 at 2:27 am
What about how Jeffrey Dohmer said how you shouldn't alter your behavior to normality if there isn't a god to worry about. Sounds like killing in the name of Atheism to me. Also, a lot of these dictators didn't like organized religion so, wiping it out to instill Atheism is also killing in the name of it.
216 the13yearoldblogger
June 6th, 2010 at 2:55 am
nice job on your list i guess. dang there are some real tyrants out there
217 the13yearoldblogger
June 6th, 2010 at 2:56 am
wow salman rushdie is a moron hahaha lol
218 k1w1taxi
June 6th, 2010 at 3:37 am
Stirring for the sake of it again Arsnl or just being a dickwad? Stalin promoted atheism and attempted to destroy the Church not for any 'religious' belief of his own but because he viewed The Cjhurch as an effective rallying point for dissent against the rule of The Communist Party. ie Him. Therefore as a pragmatic measure (and Stalin was quite the pragmatist) he did all in his power to destroy the possible rallying point for opposition.
Cheers
Lee
219 k1w1taxi
June 6th, 2010 at 3:46 am
Pol Pot only failed to reach Mao or Stalin like numbers due to lack of opportunity. Had he been in control of China or USSR he would likely have racked up even bigger numbers than either of those two. Without going to the trouble of getting the raw numbers for total population in each country during each reign, I think you will find that Pots % of killing exceeds Mao and Stalin. Certainly the effects of his genocide was every bit as profound on his country.
Cheers
Lee
220 Grammar Nazi
June 6th, 2010 at 3:56 am
There definitely is something wrong with that sentence. Let's say you replaced the word "ever" with an equivalent phrase "in history". Would it be grammatically correct to say "He was one of the best in history military commanders"? I believe not.
I really don't care that much, just wanted to point that out since no one else did in almost a day.
221 americansun
June 6th, 2010 at 4:07 am
Things Republicans Hate: All Things Non-Christian and Non-Conformist
http://www.thethingsrepublicanshate.com
222 lo1580
June 6th, 2010 at 4:19 am
just because you went to seminary school and are a theist jamie doesn't give you a pass to misrepresent/misunderstand the very concept of non-believers.
they only thing i can think of that begins to fit the idea of "a person whose religion is the denial of God" would be a person who participates certain versions of satanism that recognize the concept of a biblical god and deliberately embrace its "opposite" power, and maybe certain gnostics who believe the biblical god is merely an imperfect tyrannical demiurge who may even be seen as evil as it created suffering, not one to be worshiped or respected.
neither of those are versions of non-believers, aka "atheists". anyway, one can't really be a denialist in relation to something that hasn't been shown by way of evidence to even exist, all one can do is say "i choose not to believe in this concept until supporting evidence is indeed found." and that's not a religion by any definition of the concept….
223 The_Snowdog
June 6th, 2010 at 4:19 am
Talk about synchronicity…
I'm watching on TLC right now the story of Madalyn Murray O'Hair as I'm reading this list
224 apostle
June 6th, 2010 at 4:48 am
Simply being athiest doesn't give atheism a bad name; they give humans in general a bad name. The list about "Top 10 People Who Give Christianity A Bad Name" actually has to do with the fact that those "christians" behavior and ideals "represent" US believers wrongly. This list just contains people that are really messed up, with a "hint" to show their atheism. This list is really just to respond to the "Top 10 People Who Give Christianity A Bad Name" list. I mean hey, in the end, we're all pretty messed up. Even I am (of course), just like other Christians, but only through His grace can I always return to find real comfort.
225 apostle
June 6th, 2010 at 5:04 am
Why would a Christian write a list about people who gave all athiests a bad reputation, as if they needed to be overlooked to defend athiests in general? That would be like an athiest writing about the "Top 10 People Who Give Christianity A Bad Name". And why specifically Christian, and not any other group? Muslamic and Buddist count as "religious" too, right?
226 bucketheadrocks
June 6th, 2010 at 5:08 am
This list is very questionable. How is a serial killer on this list? Could you not include every serial killer on this? And most people are some form a religion and despise atheist. So couldn't any body who does something bad and is atheist "give atheism a bad name"? I would beleive if that was the case then it could be said about any religion!
227 bucketheadrocks
June 6th, 2010 at 5:20 am
For the sake of everyone, please stop making religion list! In the end we will always have 10000+ heads saying they are right and everyone else is wrong. How can anyone be right anymore? "I believe in the flying spaghetti monster, I ask and pray for things and he gives me them if he wants too. If I follow his rules, I will be able to fly with him one day, eating spaghetti all day long and be happy forever." Can you prove that he dosen't exist? Show me proof that he dosen't exist and I will stop believeing in him. YOU CAN'T! So I will argue he exist and you will stand there with your arms crossed saying he dosen't exist. Where did we honestly get from here? Nowhere… And we will continue to get nowhere…
228 bucketheadrocks
June 6th, 2010 at 5:22 am
I really hate you
229 reverendhellfire
June 5th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
This facile “list” is so wrong and mistaken in so many ways that its pointless to undertake to correct it. Sufficient to say, “MOST DUBIOUS LIST EVER!” And thats saying something
230 apostle
June 6th, 2010 at 5:30 am
Seriously, what is this about "cherry picking"? From what I know, most athiests (as well as many Christians, ironically) don't consistently read the Bible. Also, if they do, many athiests can't do so without finding some false "double-meaning" or "hidden message".
231 bucketheadrocks
June 6th, 2010 at 5:31 am
Prove to me your "God" exist using FACTS! Not just a stupid little book! Until some "God" actually comes down and talks to everyone in the world and proves he exist, your God dosen't exist.
232 Victor
June 6th, 2010 at 5:49 am
Bread is evil, actually. Well, depends… the bread made by big companies is…
233 WillMcIntyre
June 5th, 2010 at 10:50 pm
Wow, alotta Asians are athiests.
234 Mirachi
June 6th, 2010 at 6:01 am
I agree with a post I've read earlier. I don't think what people do themselves should categorize into giving something a bad name. People do it because they're bad, and most of the time crazy. This doesn't mean it should give whatever he/she believes in or doesn't a bad name. And yet people will keep arguing pointing out everything just so they can give themselves a 'good name'. And it shouldn't be " Top 10 Atheists who were REALLY REALLY bad" but " Top 10 Evil Atheists " etc, hell, just put the two lists together and make a "Top 20 people who give themselves a bad name"
235 Hamish
June 6th, 2010 at 6:10 am
A few points.
Firstly, the creator of the list did not state that Atheism was the cause of their actions. And, indeed, it appears not to be.
Secondly, yes, the Catholic church has been involved with opression throughout alot of its history. But Protestantism has been a champion of human rights and liberties right up until Karl Marx chucked it all out the window and forced the Church to return to the far right.
Case in point, the abolition of slavery in much of the western world. It was lead by a Christian- William Wilberforce- and it was because of his Christianity that he felt slavery was wrong.
Thirdly, just like Atheists, not all Christians agree on everything. Neither do all Muslims, all Hindus, all Buddhists- there is always diference between diferent sectors. Case in point is the Reformation- the rejection of the religion which had seeped into the Catholic Church, and replacing it with Biblical teaching.
Fourthly, just like Christians, Atheists don't agree on everything. There is no collective of Atheists- in fact, similar to any organised religion, there are diferent sectors: there are millitant atheists, secularist atheists, liberal atheists- you name it.
So, while it is wrong to say that the actions of the individuals on the list are attributable to Atheism, it certainly factors into some aspects. The largest example of this is the millitant hatred of any form of Theism in all of these people.
Dawkins and Hitchens do not give Atheism a Bad Name. These men do.
236 Hamish
June 6th, 2010 at 6:15 am
Something else to think about.
Christians are expressly commanded to 'love their neighbour as themselves'. Therefore, any Christian who commits murder is clearly a heretic, an Atheist or very confused.
Or they are committing murder for the same reasons an Atheist does.
Go figure.
237 Victor
June 6th, 2010 at 6:25 am
"Christians are expressly commanded to 'love their neighbour as themselves'. Therefore, any Christian who commits murder is clearly a heretic, an Atheist or very confused."
If they believe in god they are not a atheist by any means. They may be misguided Christians or they may have a warped view of Christianity, but if they believe in god or any kind of deity, then they can't be atheist.
And to be honest, Christianity may say "love thy neighbor" and whatnot… but many of them clearly discriminate against people that hold other beliefs (or lack thereof)…
238 supraklok
June 6th, 2010 at 6:48 am
It's not about quantity, It's about the quality
239 Alex
June 6th, 2010 at 6:48 am
Does it surprise you that many asians are atheists? You do know that Christianity originated in the Mediterranian, then became the official religion of the Roman Empire? Europe inherited the culture of the Roman Empire and then it was taken over to America.
240 @ScotchBanyon
June 6th, 2010 at 6:50 am
People – Atheism is a worldview, a set of presuppositions about the world that informs and guides every decision you make consciously and subconsciously as a human being. There is no fundamental difference between an atheist and a theist in regards to its power of influence over the shaping of who you are as a person. To claim that an atheist or anti-theist or whatever you want to call it is free from the "constraints" or "handicaps" that religious people face is a complete lunacy.You are what you believe, not perfectly, not fully, but you are definitely a product of your worldview. People seem to think that atheism is somehow un-religion. Simply replace Jesus with any such leading author of Atheist ideals, and bible with their books, and church with whatever your "heart" worships under, i.e. a sports stadium, the outdoors, NASCAR (for the redneck atheists out there, a minority to be sure).
It seems that a lot of people are forced to back-track and swallow words when there are very clear examples of Atheistic ideals in practice on a massive scale and the outcome is the mass murdering of millions of people. How can anyone be in objection to ANYTHING if there is fundamentally, absolutely and infinitely no rhyme, reason or purpose to anything that ever was and ever will be? How can anyone object to a "wrong doing"? Judgment calls don't exist in a universe of neutrality, there isn't a yin and yang, it's just stuff happening to stuff happening to stuff. People will disagree to this line of reasoning all the time – simply because they are idealists that have borrowed from the ideas of a higher power passing down laws and precepts to Creation (Us). In essence, they are very inconsistent atheists. The men in the list above appear to be very consistent and true-to-their-word atheists of you ask me.
241 @ScotchBanyon
June 6th, 2010 at 6:51 am
If people want to have ACTUAL dialogue with one another (which to be honest doesn't seem to be the case on the internet for the most part), instead of all this vilification and cheap debate tricks, why don't we all just recognize the very obvious fact that we ALL follow something. Whether its, God, Jesus, Allah, yourself, whatever, it guides who you are and you can't escape it.
242 supraklok
June 6th, 2010 at 6:57 am
Why do people so fervently defend Christianity but when Islam, a parallel belief, is called a violent, evil belief, no one seems to mind?
243 supraklok
June 6th, 2010 at 7:20 am
Exactly. Just like Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher.
Dawkins may be smart but that doesn't give him the right to slap others in the face for their beliefs.
244 joe
June 6th, 2010 at 7:51 am
this list is disgusting and EVIL! who ever made this list obiosuly wants all athiest to burn in "hell"
i am truly ill seeing this list on a fact based web site. if all of those guys where atheist then there ok in my book. anyone who thinks ANY athiest is evil should be SHOT!
245 monyetbunglon
June 6th, 2010 at 8:28 am
in fact you can talk, you can walk, and your is alive, is not enough for you?
246 @ScotchBanyon
June 6th, 2010 at 8:32 am
People – Atheism is a worldview, a set of presuppositions about the world that informs and guides every decision you make consciously and subconsciously as a human being. There is no fundamental difference between an atheist and a theist in regards to its power of influence over the shaping of who you are as a person. To claim that an atheist or anti-theist or whatever you want to call it is free from the "constraints" or "handicaps" that religious people face is a complete lunacy.You are what you believe, not perfectly, not fully, but you are definitely a product of your worldview. People seem to think that atheism is somehow un-religion. Simply replace Jesus with any such leading author of Atheist ideals, and bible with their books, and church with whatever your "heart" worships under, i.e. a sports stadium, the outdoors, NASCAR (for the redneck atheists out there, a minority to be sure).
It seems that a lot of people are forced to back-track and swallow words when there are very clear examples of Atheistic ideals in practice on a massive scale and the outcome is the mass murdering of millions of people. How can anyone be in objection to ANYTHING if there is fundamentally, absolutely and infinitely no rhyme, reason or purpose to anything that ever was and ever will be? How can anyone object to a "wrong doing"? Judgment calls don't exist in a universe of neutrality, there isn't a yin and yang, it's just stuff happening to stuff happening to stuff. People will disagree to this line of reasoning all the time – simply because they are idealists that have borrowed from the ideas of a higher power passing down laws and precepts to Creation (Us). In essence, they are very inconsistent atheists. The men in the list above appear to be very consistent and true-to-their-word atheists of you ask me.
247 @ScotchBanyon
June 6th, 2010 at 8:34 am
If people want to have ACTUAL dialogue with one another (which to be honest doesn't seem to be the case on the internet for the most part), instead of all this vilification and cheap debate tricks, why don't we all just recognize the very obvious fact that we ALL follow something. Whether its, God, Jesus, Allah, yourself, whatever, it guides who you are and you can't escape it.
248 James
June 6th, 2010 at 8:42 am
Bring out the next list. Quickly for shit sake.
249 Zlorwf
June 6th, 2010 at 9:02 am
Anti-comitern lists are so 60's.
250 Bowser
June 6th, 2010 at 9:03 am
Unfortunately they do kill in the name of unbelief. Of their particular philosophy. That in particular has nothing to do with being either an atheist or theist. It's just a failing of human nature. Religious nuts will argue that their doing God's will. Atheistic nuts will argue that there doing for the greater good. For both it's a picture that only they see.
251 bailes
June 6th, 2010 at 9:12 am
Whats irritating to me is the level of hatred displayed for Christianity. So many people in the comments want to blame a religion for the acts of specific people or groups, when a Christian is defined as a follower of Christ, or more specifically, someone who forms ones life to match that of Christ's and his teachings. If someone bombs a planned parenthood in the name of their 'god', how are you going to blame the entire religion/belief?
What is the example Christ set? To love your neighbor, to help those in need, and to care for the sick, poor, and destitute. At no point will you hear Jesus quoted in the Bible as condoning or endorsing the evil acts that many of you have pointed out have been done in the name of God.
Who is to blame? The person/people who performed the said act. Humans have the inherit nature to twist things they hear to mold to their own ideas, and similar examples can be seen in nearly every major area of civilization. I'm not going to blame a gun if someone shoots a person I know, so don't blame my faith for atrocities committed.
So please, stop your generalizations, grouping, and scapegoat-ism lest you sound like a bigoted fool.
252 WillMcIntyre
June 6th, 2010 at 2:28 am
I bet the lists about religion has more comments than all of Listverse combined. Oh, and I’m on the athiest side on this one.
253 63jax
June 6th, 2010 at 9:45 am
Atheism is good, you don't follow any doctrine, if you wanna hate someone you hate him, if you wanna love you love, simple as that. Only what your head tells to do, only i know what's better for me and nobody else. Being atheist doesn't make me a bad man, maybe i did much more good than any of religious followers. This list has some serious lacunas.
254 bobnickmad
June 6th, 2010 at 9:49 am
Obviously,because more people are religious than atheist.
255 Wrichik Basu
June 6th, 2010 at 10:18 am
I am yet to see Dawkins out of his depth in a debate about God. His arguments are very clear and have silenced his opponents on stage many times. A casual Youtube search should be enough to dig up examples of this. Bill Maher, as I said, would feature on that list though.
Secondly, I don't recall Dawkins trying to falsify traditional philosophy per se. Atheism has had a very long tradition in philosophy too. Buddhism and Jainism denounce the idea of a creator God (but retain supernatural beliefs), Hinduism has branches which reject God and Greek philosophers have developed "Godless" philosophies too.
Also, if science isn't meant to "prove" anything, then what is ? Proof is an elusive concept and science attempts to minimize assumptions (Occam's razor / principle of parsimony) in its explanations of phenomena. That's the best we can hope for rationally.
As for Dawkins' qualifications, how qualified are we to debate anything on listverse ?
"it doesn't care" doesn't describe atheism at all. That phrase goes better with apatheism, a different philosophy. Is trying to teach a child that there is no monster in his closet, or that the pain in his stomach is not because of a shamanic curse but stale food proselytizing ? Of course not ! Similarly, trying to explain to grownups that the more logical position on matters of the universe is the one that dispels the notion of God is not proselytizing.
256 Wrichik Basu
June 6th, 2010 at 10:21 am
That's a technically correct (the best kind of correct) point, but after watching "Religulous" , you'd have to agree that the man favors the atheistic position very, very much.
257 hsb
June 6th, 2010 at 3:29 am
I think jeffrey dahmer gets it a little worse then he deserves. Iv done alot of reserch on him and he’s a little different then most sereial killers…poor guy, they should have kept him in treatment.
258 Wrichik Basu
June 6th, 2010 at 10:32 am
"Nothing comes from nothing"
'Comes from' and 'nothing' are both concepts of convenience that humans use to make sense of what is around them. To expect everything to have a cause leads to infinite regress which,
1. we have no reason to dismiss (tell me one if you disagree), hence an infinitely old universe is plausible. Modern physics only points out that the instant of the big bang was a singularity and no information up to that point (if any) is recoverable now.
2. we MAY choose to skip by the following logic from St Augustine : "Time is a property of the universe that God created. It did not exist before the beginning of the universe.". Sums it up pretty well (except for the three letter word in there
).
Dawkins is rabid because we don't take to adults believing in invisible friends, invisible pink unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters, very kindly but make a ludicrous exception when it comes to larger groups of people subscribing to equally preposterous ideas.
259 Wrichik Basu
June 6th, 2010 at 10:44 am
… and what would constitute proof of infiniteness of age, I ask ?
Science does not "say" that the universe is infinitely old, it only accepts that possibility. The point majava was making is that the classic "there must be a creator" argument is flawed to its core and doesn't help explain anything at all.
As for string theory, http://abstrusegoose.com/137, http://abstrusegoose.com/272 (click on) …
260 7raul7
June 6th, 2010 at 10:57 am
True that.
261 7raul7
June 6th, 2010 at 11:10 am
Hey reverend, you have one hell of a name.
262 Saju Pillai
June 6th, 2010 at 11:13 am
This is a silly list.
This list has as much logic in it as a list of "people who have give full sleeve shirts a bad name". Why almost everyone on this list must have worn a full sleeve shirt in their life.
What is the connection between the atheism of Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Mao, Napoleon, Than & their actions ? Can you actually demonstrate that their atheism irrefutably and directly caused them to do evil things and that they are not doing these evil things because of misguided ideologies that have nothing to do with atheism.
I hereby contend that all these people on the list give a bad name to full sleeve shirts, green tea, leather wallets and yellow haired Russel Terrier puppies.
263 dogpoloni
June 6th, 2010 at 11:39 am
These people don't give atheism a bad name, they give humanity a bad name. Did Hitler give vegetarians a bad name? Or did Stalin give people with mustaches a bad name? Of course they didn't, their actions had no correlation to their religious beliefs. Title is very misleading.
264 7raul7
June 6th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
The best atheist quotes. EVER.
http://www.bspcn.com/2008/08/25/101-atheist-quote...
Here is one. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" – Epicurus
265 Ryan Casey
June 6th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
I don't think you all really get what he is saying. There are people who have to done bad things in the name of atheism, but most of these people did nothing in the name of atheism, excluding a couple. I was expecting to read about people killing or forcing others into atheism, not doing bad things and just happening to be atheist
266 human
June 6th, 2010 at 5:27 am
The main reason why i presumed he don't believe in himself is primarily due to his lack of confidence on his own creations, the Man. So he had to test his own creations by putting them here on earth instead of placing them on heaven in the first place. The logical implication of my comment was to inspire an intra-personal argument in believers. i.e. God don't believe in himself, so why should we?
Who is retarded now? you fucking idiot!
267 Davo
June 6th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
simple fact: if you're religious you're an idiot
268 James
June 6th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Ha. You assume mocking fox news means mocking conservatism. In a way, you have demonstrated what is wrong with this list. BTW, watching fox news, cnn, msnbc etc in the past is what has turned me off watching fox news, cnn, msnbc etc in the present. Tell me what is happening in the world, just don't give me bullshit reasons why. That's not news. That's propaganda.
269 James
June 6th, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Exactly 100% right.
270 Mike Knowler
June 6th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
What? No. Theism is belief in deities – religion is about worship and respect. There's a sizeable canyon of difference between the two.
271 Mie
June 6th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
but this is exactly where I feel like many theists misunderstand atheists – as I see it, as an atheist, being an atheist means not following any kind of deity or religion. It does not automatically lead to an egoistic lifestyle where you only follow yourself, nor does it lead to following what you percieve as an "atheist lifestyle" or "atheist values". Atheism is, as many before me have cried and shouted, an absence of religion. It's nothing like religion, it's not comparable, because it's the complete opposite; it's living without religion.
If you by "following something" refer to following anything, as in philosophy, ethics, basic personal morality or such, then you're just sandbagging the discussion completely. Of course everyone is guided by something, if only pure instinct, but that fact is unrelevant to the discussion here: the point being the difference between following religion and not following religion.
272 Mie
June 6th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Continuing:
I also have to question your logic about atheism being a mirror image of theism, but with atheist substitutes for religious books or similar artifacts: I am myself an atheist, but I have never read a single book on the subject, by any famous atheists, such as Richard Dawkins, nor have I ever felt the need to. Still, I am an atheist, and I always have been, even when growing up closely to religious communities and being taught religion in school. If atheism works as you write, how can I then be an atheist, without substituting any religious positions with atheistic alternatives? Atheistic ideals? Spare-time activites as religious substitutes? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. There is no such thing as atheistic ideals – to put it bluntly, atheism doesn't exist. It's the opposite of religion.
273 Mike Knowler
June 6th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
If Dawkins isn't qualified to debate theology then no one is. Since religions aren't based on facts or evidence – qualifications in schools of thought about things which have no evidence are completely meaningless.
"he doesn't disbelieve the concept of a creator"
What are you smoking, Frater? He's admittedly not of Hard Atheism (no rational person can be since the idea of god isn't disprovable) but he describes himself as a 6.8 on a scale of 0 – 7 (hard theism <-> hard atheism) so I don't know where your getting your information from.
Dawkins bag is evolution and evolution awareness in a world permeated by superstition and mistrust of science. His goal is to help people to see the world isn't 6500 years old but 4.5 billion and that we are apes whom share common ancestry with other humans, hamsters, horses, everything. Beyond that it's not about converts.
He's not the crass zealot that the religious paint him as. I never cease to be amazed at how vocal atheists get demonised as militant, persecuting bigots as if they're going to pick up an AK, don a suicide vest and declare war on all believers. How threatened must the religious feel to react like this.
274 Mike Knowler
June 6th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
I've enjoyed reading the comments on this list. It's highlighted something I hadn't really considered; that you can't give atheism a bad name. There's nothing really to atheism, it's just the lack of faith.
Atheism is so insubstantial as a world view that one MUST compliment it with philosophies. Luckily in this day and age, logic reason and great respect for science is popular along with humanism.
It's a good time to be an atheist!
275 bucketheadrocks
June 6th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
I totally agree. Dahmer was definitly different. To be named a "Person who gives atheism a bad name" is a disgrace. I've read books about him and the things he said really made me question what is the difference between him and everyone else on the world. And about the whole treatment thing… No. I'm not saying that he deserved to die but a person like him just can't be helped anymore. And to me, he seemed as if he looked forward to his death. He knew what he had done and knew he couldn't be helped and knew the only way to stop this torment he was suffering was to die. Sad how he died though… Didn't even put up a fight…
276 Shirokuma
June 6th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
better than fu** things up and claim it's what god wanted
just as some special american leaders tend to do.
277 Sandos
June 6th, 2010 at 9:41 am
How was the Che list biased? He was an idiot psyhopath
278 g3nov3s3
June 6th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Your forgot Ion Iliescu – the president who destroyed Romania! He was also an atheist.
279 hermy304
June 6th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
Why do north americans with such a strong belief and background of christianity are one of the most worst countries for crime and corruption.They always seem to use the 'God told me to do it' card.Just look how many serial killers they have had and how many have used that card to justify what they have done.I am a atheist.
280 segues
June 6th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Obviously, you have never read Dawkins. His atheism is quite aside from his brilliance as a scientist and his ability to write books about it so that even those of without a PhD can comprehend him.
I admire Dawkins as scientist. I don't care at all what his religious/political/sexual/nutritional leanings are.
281 DanY
June 6th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
Well said Hamish and others. The point is these people were evil and happened to be atheists. I can give you a list of a few thousand crimes committed for the cause of, in the name of, or pointlessly because of religion. Now tell me how many crimes have been committed in the name of no God. Its exact point is to remove blind religious fervour that is so perfect for excusing evil deeds.
282 segues
June 6th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Yet another boring list. This is becoming all too common. It might have a good list, it certainly had potential,yet each explanation was too short, too weak, written as if it might a twelve year old's surprise exam paragraph.
283 The Major
June 6th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
If anyone says 'God told me to do it' then it is probably mental illness you're dealing with it. The majority of the religious leaders would state that violent enterprises are against what they teach.
284 The Major
June 6th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
How brilliantly open minded. You must be a joy to speak with.
285 The Major
June 6th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
If God is malevolent, then he's malevolent. The nature of his character would have no bearing on His existence.
286 sandos
June 6th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Wow, someone didn't have their juice today, need a nap?
287 The Major
June 6th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
You seem to misunderstand the difference of external factors such as clothes to psychological factors such as spiritual outlook in how they affect our judgement and behaviour.
If I wear full sleeve shirts, that wouldn't lead me to commit any type of act. If I believed strongly, that there was no sanctity to human life, or whether I believed certain elements of society needed to be wiped out, then it might.
288 The Major
June 6th, 2010 at 7:18 pm
What if someone else believes that it is perfectly acceptable to practice eugenics in order to limit potential problems with future generations? What argument could be used against them if 'they know what's better for them and nobody else'?
What if the Government went along with your way of thinking and made such actions legal? Would it then be right?
289 The Major
June 6th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Now there's someone giving atheism a bad name!
290 mike
June 6th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Yeah, that's a rumor. Thoroughly debunked – read the book "Columbine", the most complete account of the incident.
291 freddie
June 6th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
Okay, fair point. Then again, the list of the people who give religion a bad name is A LOT longer.
292 @ScotchBanyon
June 6th, 2010 at 10:19 pm
It isn't a religion by definition but it is functionally the same. It informs what kind of person you are and determines your moral outlook on life (that doesn't mean every atheist has the same outlook, just like theists don't). Atheism is just another worldview.
293 @ScotchBanyon
June 6th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
And sports and baldness have absolutely nothing to do with your belief in the meaning of or purpose of existence.
294 jacks
June 6th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
This is one of the worst lists you've done, honestly. From the lack of citations on your Kinsey assertions to the fact that none of these people were particularly known for atheism–as in, it isn't one of the first ten things I think about when I hear any of the names–it's a pretty terrible list.
295 segues
June 6th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
I think we're scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Lists used to be something to look forward to, and getting a List published was an accomplishment.
Sadly, I think those days are over. I am seeing fewer and fewer of the old, established commenters, too. People with knowledge just dripping off them. They seem to have abandoned ship, and who can blame them? I see more and more lists that appear to be homework assignments, in the lower school levels! It's not just this SallyH person. Not by a long shot.
I'm sure SallyH is a nice person. I'm sure all the list writers are nice people, that doesn't mean they are good at researching and writing.
I really could rant on here, but I don't want to, it wouldn't help, there's no point.
296 AuthorityFigure
June 6th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
“Atheism has been around for thousands of years…”
Atheism is not a doctrine that was ‘made’ or ‘founded’ – it is a default position. It is not a positive belief in any one thing, so it is not something that’s been ‘around’.
It’s a fallacy and shows ignorance when people portray it as a doctrine. It’s not.
297 Dan
June 7th, 2010 at 1:15 am
So why don't you submit one?
298 @ScotchBanyon
June 7th, 2010 at 2:41 am
The Major – it seems that any attempts at logical reasoning are frowned upon here (which is quite bizarre from the profoundly scientific atheist crowd), as seen by this stupid comment rating system.
299 @ScotchBanyon
June 7th, 2010 at 2:45 am
Hitler was a practicing occultist, as seen in the hit video game, Castle Wolfenstein
300 hunter
June 7th, 2010 at 3:17 am
"Stalin ordered purges within the Soviet Union of any person deemed to be an enemy of the state (i.e. capitalists, theists)"
- this means he killed those people because they were theists, that is killing in the name of atheism.
301 Warren
June 7th, 2010 at 3:31 am
I'm a longtime listverse reader I've found most of the lists on this site to be well researched and educational, but the unsupported attacked against Kinsey in item 10, and all together lack of knowledge on the subject matter, is enough to make me avoid reading this site in the future.
302 timefillmyeyes
June 7th, 2010 at 5:49 am
The only thing that separates agnostics from atheists is that if you twist an agnostic's arm hard enough, they'll admit that there might possibly be a God. I'm agnostic, but I don't behave in any way as if there is a God. I am essentially the same as an atheist, but I simply don't think that there is unshakable proof for or against God. I search for answers in science and philosophy the same way an atheist might.
303 mordechaimordechai
June 7th, 2010 at 7:02 am
Oh man! I became so thumb sensitive!
Look at that ! They gave me 5 down to me and 2 up for you.
Guess the argument is over… you won.
304 lordofreimes
June 7th, 2010 at 9:17 am
You seem to misunderstand the point he was trying to make. You are nitpicking an example he just happened to give to point out how stupid it was.
However, to satiate your misguidance, here are some extra list titles that relate to your "external vs psychological" factors.
10 People who give:
1. Global Warming a Bad Name (eg. Global Warming Preacher Al Gore for driving Humvees)
2. Twilight Fans a Bad Name (eg. Crazy tweens)
3. Justin Bieber Fans a Bad Name (eg. Every tween and their mum for all the tramplings, injuries that may or may not require ambulance attendance and general chaos they create when seeing Lil'Biebs)
4. Computer Gaming a Bad Name (eg. Every high school shooter, which the media blames on Counter-Strike and GTA rather than whatever PSYCHOLOGICAl and SOCIETAL problems they had)
5. Fox News a Bad Name (eg. every single host)
6. [insert religion] a Bad Name (every single person who has a spiritual outlook – eg 20% of the whole f'ing world)
305 Matt101
June 7th, 2010 at 9:28 am
Case in point as far as Stalin is concerned. His RELIGION, or rather, his mockery of an idea of a stage in human development is to blame. People constantly forget that socialism, as opposed to some forms of atheism, had an agenda. Basically, socialism (not communism, these two terms do not mean the same thing, and there was never a regime that was truly communist; no wonder since "true" communism is a form of utopia) was a CIVIL RELIGION, meaning that certain profane institutions and acts, like the cult of the leader, the communist party, various public displays etc were , in a way, made sacrosanct.
Religion as we know it was seen as unwanted competition. Attempts at eradicating it served the purpose of imposing a new ideology – largely similar to that of most religions, and not exterminating the need for any form of belief and worship whatsoever.
306 dr. Hannibal Lecter
June 7th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Heh..I was actually expecting him to be on the list. I'd hate to be involved in any sort of organized religion, but RD is fighting this thing in a wrong way. He's fighting the dogma by being dogmatic himself. Unwise. Bill Maher is nowhere near his level of silliness (simply because Dawkins is not even funny while being a jackass).
307 Hammy
June 7th, 2010 at 3:39 am
I don’t agree with most of d article, though… Being atheists may have been a commonality, but hardly d influencing trait here.
Hitler, Stalin and Genghis had mustaches. But u wouldn’t say “Hey, these guys were bad. So they give mustaches a bad name”
The argument only holds if the ppl did things directly because of their lack of faith… As it stands, you have countless examples of good and bad people… within and outside faith. A correlation is not established, at least not among atheists, basically cos it is not an adherence to any particular philosophy, but a lack of one. Atheists can’t be branded under one umbrella cos the list of actions they do BECAUSE they are atheists… are few – like not going to church, or getting irritated by preachers, or arguing against curbing free speech because of religious intolerance, etc etc…
The people in the list were bad because of several reasons. Being power hungry, psychotic, exploitative, etc, are not traits that are directly attributed to atheism.
To quote from “http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/richard_dawkins/2007/10/for_good_people_to_go_evil_thi.html” -
It is easy for religious faith, even if it is irrational in itself, to lead a sane and decent person, by rational, logical steps, to do terrible things. There is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds. There is no logical path from atheism to evil deeds. Of course, many evil deeds are done by individuals who happen to be atheists. But it can never be rational to say that, because of my nonbelief in religion, it would be good to be cruel, to murder, to oppress women, etc…
The following quotation from the Nobel prize winning physicist Steven Weinberg has become well known, but it is so devastatingly true that it is worth quoting again and again: “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”
308 dalinean
June 7th, 2010 at 11:21 am
This list is outright wrong on many points.
Jim Jones was much more fundamentalist Christian than Athiest
The 'facts' about kinsey aren't
Mussolini supported christianity (catholic, same thing)
Hitler was catholic! even though the church disowned him, that was his essential faith.
Stalin was educated (and probably learned everything) from the Jesuits (I believe)
Than Shwe is Buddhist!
Using the criteria on this list George W Bush could be called an athiest.
Creating ignorance is no way to combat evil.
309 Tom
June 7th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
There is a holiday for atheists. Psalm 14:1, "The fool says in his heart 'there is no God.'" They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good." So the atheist holiday is April 1st. The fact that there is no one who does good is the reason Jesus was sent.
310 Jay Poe
June 7th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
What a dumb list. What does Atheism have to do with these people? How does their religious beliefs have anything to do with the atrocities they have committed?
311 dalinean
June 7th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Actually, I think Napoleon has a good name.
He sorted out france after the reign of terror.
The Napoleonic code is a byword for justice as opposed to the heap of *** that is the common law system.
The metric system is now used world wide.
France is a great country, the cradle of democracy largely a result of Napoleon.
312 Kuban8r
June 7th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Agnostic = someone who doesn't want to decide between believing and non believing just in case there is a God and you end up pissing him off
My biggest problem with Athiests is how they do the very thing they claim to hate in enforcing their beliefs on people. My understanding is that many people turned from religion when the "follow us or your going to hell" Christians started getting into the media and into everyones bedrooms, the athiests stopped and said "don't tell me how to life my life".
Now all I ever here are athiests subjecting me to ridicule and hate because of my Christian beliefs. If you believe that belief in God is a terrible thing that poisons our minds and keeps us from living a good and whole life, then keep it to yourself because guess what? I believe that your lack of belief in God will lead to the exact same result, yet I don't go around demanding you listen to me.
313 Luka
June 7th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Way to set a fire under atheists for acts that had absolutely nothing to do with their beliefs. Poorly researched a poorly though out list – I would have thought Listverse had a degree of 'quality control'.
314 Luka
June 7th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Pastafarians unite!
315 Luka
June 7th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
I agree. Up until now I've either commented politely on lists or, if I didn't like them, said nothing at all. But this one was so abysmal that I felt compelled to post my opinion, solely because of how negative it is – Listverse used to be my first port of call, but to be frankly honest the quality of some of these lists are declining so rapidly it makes me inclined not to come back.
316 Luka
June 7th, 2010 at 4:09 pm
A lot of atheists have had bad experiences with strongly religious people – I'm of the line of thought 'I'll tolerate those who tolerate me', but to be frankly honest sometimes I despair. I remember on one site a random person came to my profile and started pestering me as to why I didn't believe – this person seemed to think it was alright to question my position, but the second I questioned hers she screamed 'intolerance' and 'discrimination'.
Anyways, hypocrisy is a fundamental human flaw, and we're all guilty of it in some respect.
317 Bernard marx
June 7th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
I personally think aetheists are all snobbish narcissists who think they know everything.
318 Pops
June 7th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
im not saying he was GOOD, just that he did more good FOR RUSSIA than bad. yes many people died, but russia could never have moved forward as a country unless a few million peasants were killed. it had to, unfortunately, be done by someone.
319 Pops
June 7th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
chamberlain, chuchill, bush…chamberlain signed britain into the war (not because it was the right things to do, but because he wanted to make money by trade later on), and killed millions of young me. churchill was almost the architect of many massacres in india, and do we need to start on afghanistan and iraq, and probably iran in the near future..
320 Aaron
June 7th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
I haven't seen the movie so i can't argue with that but i have wanted to see it so i'll make sure to check it out. Thanks.
321 Luka
June 7th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
It's because we do know everything *rolls eyes*. Or maybe you're just upset because one atheist slighted or offended you at some point and thusly you feel the need to hate anyone who subscribes to that (lack of) belief system? Talk about intolerance. At least some of us try, even if we're not always successful.
322 The Major
June 7th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
Did I really misunderstand the point? His entire comment centred around the fact that someone's atheism is about as responsible for their actions as the clothes they wear. Admittedly, I could have used the green tea, leather wallet or dog example.
My point is that although these people didn't commit their crimes in the name of atheism, their world view did enable them to carry them out.
Let's take the global warming example. If I had a lack of belief in global warming, then that might well influence my actions. I may not fly tip in the name of 'anti-global warming' but it might mean that I bear no feeling of guilt for my actions.
Ergo, an atheist could (note the word 'could') view humanity as little more than the biological accidents that they are and of no more consequence than an ant. Therefore, their worldview may affect their actions.
323 AE
June 7th, 2010 at 11:42 am
Saying that these people give Atheism a bad name is like saying OJ Simpson gives Bronco drivers a bad name. When are you people going to realize that a belief in nothing does not influence the actions of someone? The reason most of these people are Atheists is because in order to achieve supreme power as a dictator you must remove any notion of a higher authority than yourself.
324 The Major
June 7th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
So you're saying that not having a belief in the sanctity of human life or that your actions have no moral consequences has absolutely no effect on your behaviour or acts as justification for acting in certain ways?
325 Luka
June 7th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
People don't need to be controlled by the dead words of religion to have a concept of what is right and wrong.
326 OBSurfJunkie
June 7th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
Half of these people are not even atheists to begin with! Kim Jong Il claims he has divine powers; atheists don't believe in divinity. This should be "Top 10 Non-Christians."
327 The Major
June 7th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
No, true. I accept that.
However, there would be the essential problem of who decides what is moral. People would have vastly contrasting views with regard to this. Even if you went by the idea of what a government states is acceptable, this would essentially be handing power to people like Mugabe.
For me, this whole debate is about people stating that religion should be wiped out due to the harms it causes. I say that if it did, we'd still have plenty of troubling questions. Some even more disturbing.
328 Luka
June 7th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
'So you're saying that not having a belief in the sanctity of human life or that your actions have no moral consequences has absolutely no effect on your behaviour or acts as justification for acting in certain ways?'
The implication of your first comment was that because we aren't a part of any religion we have no set definitions as to our morals and hence are able to commit acts without the notion of an eternal consequence, or at least that's how I'm reading it (though I admit that, as with most things, this reading is entirely subjective). The fact is that religion has absolutely no hold over a person's morals – words can be twisted to suit any need whatsoever, as is evident by all the atrocities committed in the name of religion. 'There would be the essential problem of who decides what is moral' – once again, the meanings of words can change dependant on time and those reading it, so even within religion there is no clear definition as to 'morals', therefore how can it be argued that simply because one does not subscribe to a faith, their morals are lesser and the social obligation less important?
I hope that made sense – I'm a lot better at writing things in my head than I am on a computer
I also hope I didn't go too far off what you were initially saying – I just wanted to get that view out there, and I hope I didn't offend anyone in doing so.
329 Muscarius
June 7th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
I think this list makes no sense. Being atheist has nothing to do with the act these people did. Being atheist should be simply the normal state of sound minded men.
330 The Major
June 7th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
It certainly made sense. You've made some good points.
However, although many atrocities are committed in the name of religion, many more positive acts are accomplished in the name of religion. If one has no faith, there is no responsibility on that individual other than that they create themselves. That's fine for many people, but I believe the world will turn for the worse if religion was completely abandoned.
The funny thing is, I've argued a lot on this particular message board, I'm not even particularly religious.
331 Luka
June 7th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
'However, although many atrocities are committed in the name of religion, many more positive acts are accomplished in the name of religion.'
And for however many atrocities committed by atheists, there are also many positive acts too
I understand that religion can be used to give hope, but that's just never appealed to me. I'd rather see the world clearly, make my own judgements and live my life without the notion of an eternal damnation/redemption based solely on my current actions. I treat others how I would expect to be treated myself, I understand right and wrong and that is the basis of my morals and how I live my life.
And I don't usually argue on this site, but this list really irked me. It has very weak foundations and was very poorly thought out. And I should be revising for my exams tomorrow instead of getting into religious debates XD
332 Joe Fogey
June 7th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
Hitler said many times that he was a catholic.
333 Joe Fogey
June 7th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
Atheism is simply the denial of the existence of gods – no more, no less. It's as much a world view as not collecting stamps is a hobby.
334 Jhon Smith
June 8th, 2010 at 1:57 am
oops I just noticed i mispelled a bunch of things, i apologize for that.
335 Jhon Smith
June 8th, 2010 at 2:00 am
I have answered to this post with my own post, just leting you know iin case you are interested in following the debate.
336 Jhon Smith
June 8th, 2010 at 2:08 am
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent…not true. If he were to stop evil he would be interfering with our free will. Evil is born from humans and thus it is for humans to conquer. If he stepped in we would be nothing more than animlas .
Would you point a gun to your son´s head so that he wont lie? if not you are malevolent. Think about what stopping evil implies.
337 Jhon Smith
June 8th, 2010 at 2:25 am
One mor thing, to all those dudes saying "Just because I´m atheist it does not mean I don´t have morals" I think everybody knows that, you probably have morals, it seems that the need for morals is part of our human nature..however, is not about if you have morals or not, is about wherever having morals is coherent with your beliefes.
Try this mental excersise: Justify human rights. Why do people have rights? Why are we different from animals? (there are many obvious reasons, however, none of them imply that we are any different beyond some purley biological-evolutinoary adaptations). Animlas can kill each other, why can´t we? aren´t we all just highly evolved animals? can there be evil or good when there is no transcendence? (one day the universe explodes and whatever we did, thought, said or didn´t say just doesn´t matter)
Try answering those, and compae your answers to how you live your life.
SPOILER ALERT:
you won´t be able to answer them without the use of a concept called dignity. Dignity is tricky, it is the belief that all humans are valuable just because they are humans, a concept first described by S.t Paul (the reasoning goes "God sent Jesus to die for humans, humans must therefore be awesome and valuable)
Truly most people live their life following their morals, most of them have no friggin what their morals are or more importantly, where their morals come from. Some blindly follow, some cherry pick whatever they want, either way, people shouldn´t be discussing this topics.
"Think for yourself they have been telling us, but I ask: What if I´m an idiot?"
——–Honorio Valderrama
338 Nico
June 7th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
Pretty crappy list….I don’t doubt that these guys are atheists and all, but did you have an eight grader write this one up? jeez, man.
339 Do ToK
June 8th, 2010 at 4:32 am
I agree with most comments here that say that these people did not act because of their beliefs with the possible exception of one or two. However, most of these people are not known for their atheism. When I think of Napoleon, I don't think of how he was an atheist, I think of how we was a brilliant military strategist until his Russian campaign. I believe this to be true for the general population also. The same goes for most of the other people on this list too. When I think of them, I don't think of their atheism, I think of what they actually did.
And just fyi, I consider myself a Roman Catholic.
340 Andy
June 8th, 2010 at 6:44 am
This and your Top 10 People Who Give Christianity A Bad Name list are totally out of sync as the prior list contains people who define themselves and their actions by their particular Christian beliefs, whereas this list contains individuals who just happened to have no faith in a higher power and carried out unrelated actions. Very poor list from such a good site
341 upyours
June 8th, 2010 at 9:42 am
Religion is old news, Atheism is the new trend. I don't give a flying fuck. Both are arrogant therefore I hate both.
342 Trapper
June 8th, 2010 at 9:51 am
An argument has been put forth by jfrater, amongst others, that Christianity should not be held any more accountable for the actions of Christians than Atheism should be for the actions of Atheists.
And to some extent they’re right, this list could just have easily been called “Another 10 Amoral Sociopaths”.
But here’s the thing: Atheists (I’m agnostic, myself, not atheist) don’t devote their Sunday mornings to an excercise in group-think where they all nod their heads sagely as a guy in a frock, who’s taken time out from fondling the altar-boys, tells them to “Do unto others as you would have done unto you”, and then go out and completely fail to live up to that standard.
There is an element of hypocrisy in the negative behaviours of religious people that is simply not present in the actions of non-religious people, no matter how the religious try to spin it.
343 The Major
June 8th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
Fair point, but you really are tarring all with the same brush there. There are many religious people who are devout and moral.
344 augustus818
June 8th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
Whew, for a minute there, I thought it was just me that caught that. I mean Jim Jones was definitely not an atheist. I never even heard of this alleged quote made by Jones.
345 Summitgrad
June 8th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Well, most would agree that if you compared the beliefs of the "Christians" listed before to the central doctrines of Christianity, they would only be considered members of pseudo-Christian religions (or "cults" if you prefer).
It's also pretty striking that the "Christians" list had mostly unfavored rhetoric (some of it absolutely horrible no doubt about it!) while this list has several mass murderers.
346 Mike Knowler
June 9th, 2010 at 5:39 am
The fool would've said that there is no god because in that time and place it got you murdered. It seems freethought in a religion saturated society is a thoughtcrime.
347 Mike Knowler
June 9th, 2010 at 5:42 am
And they'd be just as if not more moral without church.
348 Chuck Fergenson
June 9th, 2010 at 7:01 am
I just use what was put on my dog tags "NRP" – No Religious Preference when the US Navy asked. That was 30 years ago and I'm still NRP. Those ism-istic words just inflame everyone needlessly. I try to do my non practicing quietly. But as for this list, most of these MEN were/are insane sociopaths. Kinsey I don't buy that one. The rest pretty much wanted to be god e.g. good ol' Kim-Il and pals.
349 lordofreimes
June 9th, 2010 at 7:37 am
You mean to imply that atheists feel no guilt for their actions?
You mean to say that because atheists have lack of belief in a God (s) that they lack some type of moral compass?
Perhaps some of the time, people commit crimes because they are human, and are as responsible for their actions as they always have and will be, regardless of what religious beliefs they have.
Indeed you could have used a dog example because even people who own dogs do bad things.
350 Fred
June 9th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Napoleon was kinda cool, the main bad thing he did was declare himself Emperor. Otherwise he was dragging Europe into the future by destroying a corrupt system of aristocratic privilege at its roots, which is great.
Stalin wouldn't have turned out evil if he hadn't gone to seminary.
Jim Jones was a christian.
General Than Shwe's cannot be presumed to be an atheist. There is no evidence for or against the idea.
You lied about Alfred Kinsey and his research.
If Benito Mussolini was an atheist, why did he do so much for the RC Church ?
As for the rest, yes, they're probably atheists but so what ? Together they have contributed far less to the collective sum of human misery than religion.
351 Izaam
June 9th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
This is stupid, all of these people did those terrible things because of powerlust. Atheist doesn't a politic ideology, merely a personal choice, like sexual tendency. Do you really believe that Ancient Greeks or Romans kills each others because of their sexual behaviours, or more likely beacuse they want richness and political power? Atheist never kills in the name of their God/s because they don't believe in any God to kill in the name of. This full of crap pursuits to criminalize atheism and atheists, that's all.
352 Steelman
June 9th, 2010 at 12:50 pm
After reading some of the comments, there are atheists here that could be added to the list.
353 Jack Flynn
June 9th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
people often say that atheists are evil because of these people, but id just like to point out that they never killed in the name of atheism, unlike many religious people.
354 Ashley
June 9th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
I completely agree
there is a difference between the lists.
In the Top 10 People Who Give Christianity A Bad Name,
most people on the list did weird things in the name of christianity
where as, in this list its just people who have done bad things, while at the
same time having no religious belief.
355 M. Phelps
June 9th, 2010 at 11:58 pm
You're foregtting that Atheists have no belief in overarching, inescapable divine justice, and no moral absolutes. They thus have no moral check on their behavior. They thus engage in whatever behaviors they feel are expedient at the time. It's no accident that Atheists have killed more people since 1917 than all the religions in the world put together since the beginning of time.
356 M. Phelps
June 10th, 2010 at 12:00 am
Marx explcitly called religion the "opiate of the masses". If you have proof that these communist dictators believed in God, let's see it.
357 M. Phelps
June 10th, 2010 at 12:03 am
Your ignorance is digusting. The people on this list killed more people than all the religions in the world put together.
358 Your mom
June 10th, 2010 at 1:45 am
God damnit, these people didn't kill for Atheism. Besides, people who give religion a bad name are Christopher Hitchens (NOT Richard Dawkins). I mean, how do you go pro Nader then pro Bush in a year?
359 Dawn-Gale
June 10th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
The victims of Jim Jones did not "take a vial of cyanide", they were forced to drink a cyanide spiked grape drink similar to Kool-Aid.
360 oouchan
June 10th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
Of course they did….they were around WAY before religion got started………however, it seems religion is doing it's best to try and keep up. …go figure.
361 Adam
June 10th, 2010 at 9:41 pm
The difference between these people and people who give religions a bad name is that these people don't commit atrocities because they are atheist (with the exception of Dahmer).
Also your piece on Kinsey was really inaccurate. He did use his work to satisfy his own sexual desires, which was wrong, but not sadistic. He also did interview a pedophile for his work, which I again do think was wrong, but saying he sexually exploited children for his work is a huge stretch. And what work did he do that was fraudulent? He did over and under represent some demographics in his work, but he did not hide or tamper with his methodology or results. All and all, while he did do some morally questionable things he hardly deserves to be on this list. I must say this really makes me question the amount of actual research the writer did on this piece.
362 antique cabinet
June 10th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Napoleon Bonaparte rule resulted in the bankruptcy of France, loss of many of her territories, six million dead Europeans and economic setback in just one generation. I idolized him.
363 Woyzeck
June 12th, 2010 at 3:58 am
Here's an idea for a list: "Ten People who give not believing in the fucking tooth fairy a bad name". You dumb fuck.
364 Jess
June 12th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
Other than Jeffrey Dahmer (who later became a Christian), I can't see that any of these people committed their terrible acts because of their atheism. It seems like politics played a MUCH larger role in their decisions.
365 rkirk
June 13th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Hold on — how can Jim Jones be on this list when he was also on the Christianity one?
366 Dan
June 13th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
Atheism is just another religion, if you think about it. Atheists seek others with the same beliefs, and attempt to spread the word of these beliefs to others. It's another organization to enforce conformity, and dismiss those who believe differently. Just like any religion. Being an Atheist is about as daring and radical as being a Baptist.
367 Cracker
June 15th, 2010 at 1:07 am
10 People Who Give Atheism a Good Name: Too many to list here, for they're responsible for the majority of the knowledge we have about anything that really matters. Throwing off the shackles of religious dogma can open up a new world of intellectual possibilities. Religion must be eradicated.
368 fendabenda
June 15th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
So, what you're saying is that all non-Christians are atheists? Ever heard of Eastern religions, such as Buddhism or Taoism?
369 fendabenda
June 15th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
Both Stalin and Hitler actually DID give people with a moustache a bad rep…
370 fendabenda
June 15th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
You have the semblance of being intelligent, do you wear glasses, too? Pol Pot KILL YOU!!
371 Batjalias
June 15th, 2010 at 11:58 pm
This list doesn't make sense to me… I'll give you an example: Say for instance i created a religion, called "listversism" (Bear with me) and i'm the only person who believes in it. I call everyone who doesn't agree with me athiests, even those who identify themselves as religious, so that's everyone on the Earth apart from me. So if they go out and kill someone they are then seen as killing in the name of athiesm? So then everyone that has ever killed anyone has killed because they are athiest and therefore give athiesm a bad name. To me, it doesn't seem logical to kill in the non-belief of something because you'd have to be doing it for another reason, weather it is hate for a certain religion etc. I could be wrong but thats how i see it.
372 ahsin
June 16th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
I’m impressed that you found a theme built on a grid that is so mathematically structured. It thrills me to think someone went to that trouble. No wonder everything here looks so nice.
http://mohammad-mohsin.blogspot.com/2010/05/difference-between-human-and-evil.html
373 kisses4wywy
June 18th, 2010 at 12:38 am
Kim Jong Il is not an Atheist. He believes he IS God. Therefore he cannot be an Atheist as we believe there are no Gods.
374 DonkeyMachine
June 18th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Go atheist's! Like the church wouldn't opt for totaltarianism. You idiots!
375 chad
June 21st, 2010 at 9:33 pm
This list is so incredibly deplorable, I can barely put it into words. You can't do an evil act "in the name of atheism." Atheism is NOT a philosophy. It is NOT a belief system. It is merely an absence of belief in a personal deity as defined by thousands of irrational, man-made gods and creation myths. Nothing more! You can't define a persons political beliefs, ideologies or practices based on whether or not they are an atheist. I have to say, after reading such an incredibly baseless list … I'm not sure If I can in good conscious read any other posts If this is the level of thought-process put forth on other topics.
376 Theist
June 22nd, 2010 at 7:26 pm
#1 You cannot deny they were/are atheists who did/do a lot of killing.
#2 Atheists use this quacky logic that you can't kill for atheism, kind of like saying, "I didn't kill that guy, the gun did".
377 beliver
June 22nd, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Stalin.
His regime killed believers because the doctrine of the USSR was intolerant of theism and advocated atheism.
You argue semantics, and it is cheap trick that devalues the death of countless thousands in order to foist up your atheistic circle logic.
378 Fact Finder
June 22nd, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Communism, specifically behind the iron curtain, was an explicitly atheistic ideology, but atheists desperately do not want to be linked to communism and all of the inhuman things done by communists, who by being communist are explicitly atheist also.
We can see the results of state sponsored atheism by simply Google’ng up The Agrarian Reform Law.
You can spin it any way you want, but communism and atheism have been intertwined and people HAVE been killed in the “name” of atheism, dare I say more so than any other ideology? Yes I dare.
379 thejm
June 24th, 2010 at 12:15 am
No, you twit, atheism is the absence of belief in any deity. That's all it is, no more and no less.
380 thejm
June 24th, 2010 at 12:18 am
At least most of us know how to spell.
381 thejm
June 24th, 2010 at 12:20 am
Atheism is the absence of belief in a deity. It is not a religion, if you think about it.
382 Hate fools
June 24th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Could there actually be someone worst then Stalin? How about someone who would condemn 6 billion people to eternally burn in hell for the smallest disobedience of his rules. Religious people are the ultimate evil and they are also stupid.
383 SallyH
June 25th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Who are you thinking of? Please try to refrain from using hate language – even if your opponents may do it, you can be the better person.
384 bacanaso
June 27th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
what a morally bankrupt ideology
385 bacanaso
June 27th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
First of all, Chamberlain, like the good liberal he was, appeased to Hitler's demands.
Communist dictators murdered an amassed number of 150 million people through famine, torture, and just simply murder. You can't really top these douche-bags. So stop apologizing for all the horrors of communism.
386 Juche4Europe
June 28th, 2010 at 1:12 am
Great leader Stalin was a hero who industrialized the USSR and turned it into a world superpower.
Mao Zedong was a great hero of the proletariat and political genius, who did a lot for china unlike traitor Deng Xiaoping.
Kim Jong Il is a great general and brilliant leader not as good a Great Leader Kim Il Sung but still a brilliant leader who has been doing a great job of defending the DPRK from U$ and $outh 'korea' aggression.
The 'facts' of the amount of people that these great heroes have 'killed' are obviously from U$ imperialist propaganda and the lies from defeaters who have sold out to U$ bribes and corruption.
DOWN WITH U$ LIES
LONG LIVE MARXIST-LENINISM
LONG MAO ZEDONG THOUGHT
LONG LIVE THE JUCHE IDEA
LONG LIVE THE IDEAS OF GREAT LEADER KIM IL SUNG
LONG LIVE DEAR LEADER KIM JONG IL
MANSE MANSE MANSE MANSE MANSE
387 SallyH
June 28th, 2010 at 7:59 am
Are you atheist? Do you believe in a God? Or do you think the Great Leader is God? This is a fascinating experience for me because there are no North Koreans where I live.
388 Avi
June 28th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
No, he's saying that not beleiving in a god doesn't effect your actions.
389 Avi
June 28th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
we aren't different from animals, we are animals. and who says animals have no rights?
390 Juche4Europe
June 28th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Yes I am an atheist. Great Leader Kim Il Sung was a great revolutionary hero and political genius but a god no.
Contrary to popular believe Juche is NOT a religion it is a political theory, it is form of Marxist-Leninism theory that teaches self-sufficiency and the Philosophical principle we as humans are the masters of our own destiny.
"Man is the master of everything and decides everything" Great Leader Kim Il Sung
391 Nil
June 30th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
And the four douche bags that published books recently.
392 Ka94
July 5th, 2010 at 7:02 am
Actually, Hitler was a christian, and not an occultist. There is evidence of some Nazis being occultists, but Hitler actually thought he was doing God's work.
393 P Smith
July 7th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
What sort of clueless and/or dishonest godbot wrote this crap?
Claiming that Jim Jones or Benito Mussolini had any atheist views is like claiming the Nazis did’t kill jews. It’s revisionism of the worst sort.
394 ashleysweet
July 8th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
"insanity is a human trait." I've been saying that my whole life! and you have some very very good points here. people need to remember that all religions have their ups and downs, and that no religion is better then the other.
395 Joseph
July 8th, 2010 at 10:05 am
Atheists are the scum of the earth creating a good image for themselves while being secretly selfish. Bunch of Machiavellian deceivers.
There is no such thing as an honest atheist. On one hand Atheists try to come across as sophisticated intellectuals, but when it comes to what they base their morality on, they suddenly act all simple minded and pretend they don’t know what the problem is.
396 Mr.Europe
July 8th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
They leaved one (dont know about others) teacher alive, who said that she believed in god.
I dont think that their shooting had anything to do with atheism. I think that they were unstabile persons.
But who knows…
397 Mr.Europe
July 8th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
Hitler wasnt a bad person, when he was the dicdator of Nazi Germani, then people loved him, even after killing jews. But when Nazi Germany lost ww2, then people turned their backs on him. He did this all for good reasons – to end all other wars. If he would win the ww2, then we all would respect him, and then we wouldnt care about the dead ones. Its like the independence war of USA, if they wouldnt win the war, then we all would look at them as some rebells, willains.
398 luke
July 8th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
Just a short point at the end, but Hitler was a catholic until his death.
399 HarryPotter
July 13th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Fully agree with you on that, They did not do their atrocity in the name of Atheism, unlike the religious people do.
400 Avi
July 13th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
and how, pray tell, is either one arrogant?
401 Avi
July 13th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
e.g.?
402 Avi
July 13th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
about # 9- I think it was a parody of the people saying you can't give atheism a bad name. I think that wasn't what most of them meant though.
403 Avi
July 13th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
he's thinking of the biblical god.
404 siege
July 22nd, 2010 at 10:33 am
Benito Mussolini was raised under the boarding school of don bosco(a famous catholic saint) in italy
he was raised and teach under pure christian doctrines.
405 alexjamesk
July 29th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
I agree. Most of the people on this list have committed these acts as part of their philosophy or visions-not necessarily because of their religion. Maybe the rationale for choosing these people was based around other peoples' perspectives of what they did: because they just *happened* to be atheists, their actions could be seen as damaging to the atheists merely by association.
406 manda
July 30th, 2010 at 2:19 am
People who do these evil things in the name of their religion are mentally unstable people to begin with. They simply take whatever religion they choose as a way to justify their evil deeds. Regardless, these people are atheists and did horrible things, and chances are the people who are going to try to vilify atheism will use these people as examples of how wrong it is, thus giving atheism a bad name. The list is not titled "10 people who did evil things because they are atheists."
407 SallyH
August 1st, 2010 at 3:25 am
Please read up on Jim Jones and Benito Mussolini to discover the facts. Just because these people are implicated with religion, do not presume they are religious. Historians agree that they were atheist.
408 SallyH
August 1st, 2010 at 3:26 am
Please do not generalise.
409 Vitalir
August 4th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
One caveat you should mention about Mussolini was that he was a devout Catholic until he entered public life.
At the time in Italy, atheism was fashionable so he very well could have been a still practicing Catholic, though in secret.
Another thing about Mussolini, he made a deal with Pius IX . In exchange for publically endorsing facism, Mussolini would turn over control of all schools to the church.
Finally, Jim Jones was no atheist. Listen to his final recording available on youtube and he mentions living in the afterlife with their families numerous times. Hardly the words of an atheist.
Poor list.
One thing about Stalin everyone should know, he was a theological student at Gori. He was studying to be an orthodox priest.
410 mems
August 6th, 2010 at 2:38 am
Darkhorse729? Ha! Let's see you do better than Mother Theresa's acts of kindness that define her lifestyle of goodwill.
411 mems
August 6th, 2010 at 2:48 am
Keep in mind, not ALL religious people do bad in the name of religion – as proven by Mother Theresa and by the charities set up by churches/mosques/temples, they are capable of performing acts of goodwill, just as much as the atheist who is as generous as he/she will be.
People who give atheism a bad name are those who openly profess their atheistic views and continue to do because to them, there is no god. There are the most horrendous criminals on trial as we speak who will attest to that and will stand by their adamant view on the non-existence of a higher being, attempting to justify their crimes in that sense. So, in all actuality, there can be some atheists who are proud of the fact that they don't believe in a god so they're able to "get away" with such.
412 mems
August 6th, 2010 at 2:51 am
Things Democrats Hate: All Things Christian and Conformist you could also argue.
I'm neither, but putting it out there that there cannot be just one side doing all the wrong.
413 Wen
August 6th, 2010 at 3:01 am
Atheism as a belief in the non-existence of a higher power was never out to preach or condone the evils of the world, some of which include but aren't limited to mass murder, molestation/rape charges, human torture on any level. NOR do Christianity, Buddhism, or some of the major religions out there accept it, much less promote that animalistic behavior. Thank goodness for that too, or we would've seen crimes committed by religious and secular people alike on a worse level than we have witnessed in these times. You can't expect that just because some criminal decides to follow his own twisted, COMPLETELY out of context 'word of God' that we see that as an excuse to openly condemn the religion as a whole – just because the criminal threw the blame on his religion, or lack thereof.
It's the individual who chooses to perform such actions, hurting others in the process – not the religion or its doctrines.
414 Cory
August 11th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Notice that all of these atheists had done nothing new and these atheists have only repeated what religious people have done which has received them saith-hood. While atheists do indeed commit similar crimes against humanity as religious people do, atheists hardly worship these people unlike how religious people still accept the saint-hoods of murderers and rapists like Theophilus of Alexandria (saint).
At the best, we must except that humans err as the only conclusion we can come upon discussing human history.
415 Casey
August 13th, 2010 at 10:39 am
Actually Dahmer was part of church of christ and a christian creationist. Look right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer
416 SallyH
August 16th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
Um, no. Read up on it.
417 SallyH
August 16th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
Sure he was taught by Catholics – most people are. But he became atheist – that happens.
418 SallyH
August 16th, 2010 at 11:48 pm
You fail in deducing from the fact that these people had religious backgrounds and childhoods that they remained so. No. They became atheist. Such things happened. If you don't believe me, look up their quotes and the testimonies of people who personally knew them. Mussolini was atheist – don't delude yourself. Just because he made a deal with the Pope didn't mean he was a theist. And Jim Jones was atheist – of course he talked about the afterlife – he was deluding people, and taking control of them by promising eternal life. He really was atheist. And yes, Stalin studied to be an orthodox priest. Does that make him a sympathiser with theists? No, he contributed to the almost entire annihilation of the Russian Orthodox Church. He hated religion. Remember that many atheists had religious upbringings.
Poor comment.
419 SallyH
August 16th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
If Theophilus of Alexandria (one obscure saint venerated by only the rather small Coptic Orthodox Church from 1600 years ago) is the best example you can come up with for religious people "worshipping" rapist and murderer saints, then I don't think your point holds much sway. No, people are not canonised for murdering and raping, much as you would like to generalise and believe.
420 Random
August 17th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
This list is so full of bullshit.. Let me explain why:
8. Than Shwe is not an atheist, but an interpretation of buddhism.
7. Kim Jong Il is as far as you can get from atheism, he's a Juche, a part of Kimilsungism. His own religion, where he is the God. He even have stories of birds taking his father to heaven. How "atheistic" is this?
6. Jeffrey Dahmer was baptized before he was executed, raised in a religious community by religious parents. Not an atheist.
4.3.2.1 — Just because they happen to be aheist, doesn't mean they were driven by atheism. That is in fact impossible and illogical. They all also used hats, maybe that's the connection?
Hitler was a Catholic..
I honestly don't understand what wicked idiocy made you write this list.
421 bassbait
August 24th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Yes, that's what "atheism" is, but that's not what "atheists" believe.
Just because the word has a definition, doesn't mean that all people who believe it suit the exact definition. THERE IS MORE/LESS, depending on who you are talking about. Atheism can be "the absence of belief in any deity", but it can also be "anti-Christianity", just as satanism is (not saying anything bad about atheists, but certain atheists specifically have a grudge against christian ideals)
You can't act like there is no more or no less, because that's like saying that Christianity means that YOU ONLY BELIEVE IN HIS TEACHINGS, no more or no less. There's more to Christianity than that, and there's more to Atheism than that. Christianity has a definition, but not every Christian fits that definition, just as not every Buddhist perfectly fits Buddhism or Jew perfectly fits Judaism.
422 bassbait
August 24th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
Yes, but you see, Atheism is just the same as a religion in the same sense:
Many Christians do not and HAVE not read the bible, or other christian works by christian authors.
Atheism is not exactly a strict code, and neither are many, many religions. You see, that's why there's this term they made up some time ago called "unorthodox". There is such thing as an "orthodox" Atheist, and even a "fundamentalist" Atheist (at least I think so, Dawkins seeming a shining example.) If you are Jewish, you don't have to be Amish, but SOME people choose to. There is no black and white. There are agnostics, there are nihilists, there are unorthodox religious folk, so saying "Atheism = opposite of religion" is not a good argument, because both Religion and Atheism are gray areas, neither one being black and white (although some people view it and treat it as such. It's pretty much become like Republican and Democrat, which in recent years hasn't done anything for us).
423 bassbait
August 24th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Lordofreimes, you seem to not be getting the concept.
Look at the title of the list:
"10 people who give Atheism a bad name".
This implies that these people MAKE OTHER ATHEISTS LOOK BAD. THE LIST DOES NOT IMPLY THAT ATHEISTS ARE NATURALLY BAD.
They don't lack a moral compass, but The Major was pointing out that sometimes PEOPLE DO. These 10 people are examples of Atheists who threw their moral compass away, and you pretty much made up your entire side of the argument. The Major specifically said "Ergo, an atheist could (note the word 'could') view humanity as little more than the biological accidents that they are and of no more consequence than an ant."
Are you an idiot? Or are you so against people talking about Atheism in a way that makes them POSSIBLY look bad that you have to defend it regardless of the fact that you're simply wrong? Read before you reply man.
424 bassbait
August 24th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Major, actually, I disagree with this:
"If I wear full sleeve shirts, that wouldn't lead me to commit any type of act."
I mean, I don't know about you, but every time I wear a full sleeve shirt, I feel like killing somebody (especially the person who made me wear it.)
425 bassbait
August 24th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Now, let's look at a quote ABOUT Epicurus:
"Epicurus didn’t deny the existence of gods. Instead, he stated that what gods there may be do not concern themselves with us, and thus would not seek to punish us either in this or any other life."
And if that didn't help you out, then here's an argument against that same idea:
"A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all. Now God can create free creatures, but He can't cause or determine them to do only what is right. For if He does so, then they aren't significantly free after all; they do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil; and He can't give these creatures the freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent them from doing so. As it turned out, sadly enough, some of the free creatures God created went wrong in the exercise of their freedom; this is the source of moral evil. The fact that free creatures sometimes go wrong, however, counts neither against God's omnipotence nor against His goodness; for He could have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good."
426 bassbait
August 24th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
"Anyways, hypocrisy is a fundamental human flaw, and we're all guilty of it in some respect. "
Yep. I witness between 1 and 10 acts of hypocrisy EVERY DAY.
Just one, somewhat unrelated example:
P.E. in High School, Sophomore year:
Student: "Aw man, I hate stretches"
Teacher: "Stop being so immature, you're sophomores! You're older than that."
Student: "But I'm sore from yesterday!"
Teacher (in a mocking voice): "But I'm sore from yesterday!"
I've just learned to accept hypocrisy has a human trait. It's inherent in all people. To 100% stick behind EVERYTHING you say is pretty much impossible. What's important is what you believe on the inside, and trying to at least get a 70% practicing what you preach, because you don't want to be a failure in what you believe in!
427 bassbait
August 24th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
"When are you people going to realize that a belief in nothing does not influence the actions of someone?"
When are people going to realize that Atheism IS NOT NIHILISM?!?
428 bassbait
August 24th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
WRONG.
You are saying that there is a 100% solution to moral problems.
What you SHOULD be saying is this:
"There are many religious people who are devout and moral, there are many religious people who are depraved and atrocious, and they'd be just as if not more or less moral without the church".
You see, the reason there are different beliefs (Atheism being a belief, not a lack of belief, again, THAT IS NIHILISM, NOT ATHEISM, just to clarify), is because there are different moral standards that people believe work FOR THEM. There are plenty of religious people who do not believe in or attend churches. You see, SOME people would lose ALL sense of morality when they leave a church, because their standards have become dismantled. It's not that Atheism is some perfect lack of theism where EVERYONE should be. I'm religious, but I don't believe that my belief is better or more preferable than any other person, simply because some people are incompatible with what I believe, just as I am incompatible with, say, Satanism (I'll never accept a belief system in which half of them are just Atheists, and the other half is just anti-religious, anti-culture idiocy).
429 lordofreimes
August 25th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
I was going to write something quite long in reply but in short, I will try to summarise in two points:
1. Name calling is pretty low.
2. If you would have a look at the list "10 people who give Christianity a bad name" then you would realise the standards upheld between these lists are different. While this list is based on "10 people who threw their moral compass away", I would say the other one is mostly based on "10 people who had a corrupt moral compass who justified themselves by their twisted version of Christianity"
A very different standard for two lists of the same nature.
430 avi
September 2nd, 2010 at 3:44 am
communism is inherently atheist, this is correct, but that doesn't mean that atheism is inherently communist. Being killed in the name of communism is not in the name of atheism, but in the name of an atheist ideology. who killed in the name of atheism? not an atheistic ideology, but just in the name of lack of god.
431 avi
September 2nd, 2010 at 3:49 am
normally when I come across these generalizations like this, I'd say it's true of some but not others. but I won't even give you that, because I have never seen an atheist who, upon being asked about their basis for morality, ''acts all simple minded and pretends they don't know what the problem is.