14 Stations of the Cross

1. petey mcgee - March 21st, 2008 at 3:08 am

damn… what’s a brother gotta do to get a fig?

2. romerozombie - March 21st, 2008 at 3:40 am

Don’t worry, he’ll be fine. The good guys always are in these kind of movies.

3. warrrreagl - March 21st, 2008 at 4:45 am

I’m just waiting for the obligatory moron to make the comment “How could you possibly have left ____ off this list?!?”

4. Spocker - March 21st, 2008 at 4:53 am

How could you possibly left off the part when Jesus logged on to ScottTrade right before the tenth station and bought 20,000 shares of communial wine at cost? He made a killing.

5. jardojo - March 21st, 2008 at 6:01 am

Why do Catholics use the cross in worship when idolatry is forbidden in the bible?

6. DiscHuker - March 21st, 2008 at 6:03 am

jayfray: i’ve seen the pictures before in the catholic church but never with any description. thanks for putting them here.

some of those early pictures make Jesus look like a whiner. and i’ve never heard of #6 or #8. i’m pretty sure those aren’t in the Bible. where did st. francis get them from?

7. ringtailroxy - March 21st, 2008 at 6:07 am

i’ve always wondered that, myself, jardojo! or why people are still believing that the stories written over 1000 years ago by men of a nomadic, desert dwelling populace, whose only certainties in life where slavery, servitude, sex,or sheep, have any relevance in today’s society? the people who wrote the stories of the bible had no knowledge of the world beyond the middle east, the sand, or petty tribal feuds that resulted in bloodshed during a barbaric and primitive time of early civilization.

ringtailroxy

8. dubs - March 21st, 2008 at 6:10 am

I love the cloth that Jesus has his face wiped with. For some reason, I just don’t think that a perfect recreation of his face would be made from a quick wipe.

9. cparker - March 21st, 2008 at 6:13 am

I like this list. jardojo: what are you talking about? The cross is an idol. The golden calf was an idol because it symbolized being away from God. The cross symbolizes being with God, among other things, so how is that idolatry. Frater, we need as many religious lists as you can for the comment debates and since religion is the most important thing that humans have, in my opinion…

10. Twinkle - March 21st, 2008 at 6:44 am

the cross is not worshipped by catholics. it is a symbol that reminds us how Jesus died for all humanity.

11. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 6:53 am

jardojo: as Twinkle and cparker said, it is not worshipped - it is used as a tool to remember the way Jesus died. The same is true of statues of the saints - they are used to remind Catholics of people who lived lives that were holy that should be emulated. This is a very common (and silly) misconception that non-Catholics have. I might have to do a list of misconceptions some time. There are many.

12. das groß - March 21st, 2008 at 7:05 am

thank you twinkle.

13. adorabelle - March 21st, 2008 at 7:29 am

jfrater: i’d love it if there was a misconceptions about catholics list. as a catholic i’ve been asked some pretty silly things. also, because for some reason i feel like it will come up, catholics do pray to saints, but this is for the saints intervention with God.

14. jardojo - March 21st, 2008 at 7:31 am

I didn’t ask why its worshiped, I asked why it is used in worship.

And cparker, why are you so defensive about it? If theres nothing wrong with it you should be proud. Funny little typo you had there- “the cross is an idol.” You must have meant to say “isn’t an idol”. Hmmm, maybe some divine intervention there? lol

The old testament says: You must MAKE no idols.

The new testament says: Be on your guard against idols.

Those aren’t the only referrences made, just 2 of several.

15. Mikerodz - March 21st, 2008 at 7:37 am

There are so many things that I do not believe, but I never make fun out of those who believe. Who knows,they might be right. The world was here long before Iwas born.

16. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 7:45 am

The thing I never really understood about Catholics is how they seem to deify Jesus’s mother Mary. I could be mistaken about this, as I am not Catholic, but it seems to me that Catholics pray to Mary, indicating an underlying belief that she is omnipresent and omnipotent, that she can hear their prayers and answer them.

Jardojo: The cross is not an idol. Christians do not pray to the cross and ask it to solve their problems, they do not have days of rememberance for the cross Jesus carried…they use the cross in rememberance of Jesus. There is a big difference between iconography and worship.

17. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 7:47 am

jardojo: for the reasons mentioned above - it is used to help focus the attention of the person praying on Jesus. An idol (as referenced by the Bible) would be an object to which you attach special power that is reserved to God alone - for example an amulet. It would also apply to any object you created that you pray TO in the hopes that the OBJECT will help you. Catholics do not expect any miracles from the objects they use - they are solely for reminders. It is interesting when protestants reject some parts of the Catholic Church while using a Catholic book (the Bible) to prove their position

18. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 7:53 am

SlickWilly: Catholics believe that everyone in heaven (saints) can hear our prayers - and therefore you can ask them to intercede for you - they are not able to make things happen - but they can appeal to God to do things - it is like getting extra help in your prayers

19. cparker - March 21st, 2008 at 7:53 am

dude i forgot the question mark, kill me

20. cparker - March 21st, 2008 at 8:01 am

jardojo: i did not mean to come across as being defensive. I am actually as non-catholic as they come while still being Christian. My only point was the idol comment. However, I followed Buddhism for 5 years before becoming Christian and at least for me it was a vital stage in finding what I truely believe in. The best part about God is every person has their own distinct idea and relationship or lack thereof that no one else may understand and its not necessary that they do.

21. alexlwe - March 21st, 2008 at 8:19 am

jfrater: are you Catholic as well? you seem to know a lot.

22. HandyMandy - March 21st, 2008 at 8:25 am

jfrater, Thank you so much for explaining. I know nothing of Catholicism, and have wondered like many. Especially about the whole thing with Mary. Very good, thanks again.

23. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 8:29 am

alexlwe: I was raised as a Catholic and got a good founding in catechism - luckily I remember much of the stuff we learnt It helps that the teachings are the same as they always have been so there are lots of resources for finding more information too.

HandyMandy: it is my pleasure

24. bridget - March 21st, 2008 at 8:40 am

Question:: What is the other day of the year that Roman Catholics don’t celebrate Mass?

25. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 8:50 am

bridget: Holy Saturday - tomorrow. The Churches are stripped bear - all images and statues are covered or removed (this is symbolic of the absence of Jesus between his death - today - and his resurrection on Sunday). Only the last sacraments are allowed on Holy Saturday (that is the special sacrament for people who are dying). Holy Saturday is considered to be the day that Jesus went down to Hell.

26. bridget - March 21st, 2008 at 8:53 am

Wow, I am always learning something new here~ Thanks!

27. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 8:56 am

For those interested, this is a youtube clip (the first of a series) which shows the stations of the cross service:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02xoy-tB0LA

28. jardojo - March 21st, 2008 at 9:11 am

So if I were to bow down to, pray to, or ask that a cross help me by providing material things then it would be an idol? So then does that mean that an object being an idol is more of a state of mind or attitude than simply being an object made to represent something?

29. jardojo - March 21st, 2008 at 9:12 am

Thank you for your answers by the way, Im not trying to be argumentative, Ive just never heard any explanations on the subject..

30. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 9:26 am

You know the big ‘J’ got a few numbers at station 8. Preying on those chicks that he brainwashed in his cult. Somewhere a fig tree is laughing.

Another thing…if ‘J’ knew that he was going to be carrying that cross, why didn’t he do a little bit of training? He’s all scrawney and emaciated. Why didn’t he turn some dirt into some whey protein and a rock into a squat rack and beef himself up for ‘the big day’? He could have picked up that cross like Eugene Sandow and marched up that path with some dignity.

31. Randall - March 21st, 2008 at 9:30 am

jfrater:

This was a nice one. If only more of us could focus on the pathos and conviction and poetry of Jesus, in examples like this… well… I won’t be puerile about it… but you know what I mean.

Happy Easter, kiwi.

32. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 9:32 am

I wonder which of the saints is the go-to guy (or girl) to get things done. There are so many of them, there is bound to be number of slackers and goof-offs. These are the saints, for instance, that are out back having a smoke when they should be at their desk filing and forwarding prayer requests. I’m sure two or three are in tight with the big J and can get away with special favors from time to time. The trick is finding out who Jesus’s golf buddy is for the week. My money is on St. Hubbins…

33. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 9:37 am

No doubt slick…

March madness reduces prayer forwarding thus reducing god’s efficiency by some 25 - 30%. Not a good day to pray.

I go to St. E. Bunny for my late March early April prayers.

34. DiscHuker - March 21st, 2008 at 9:38 am

sometimes general human rudeness and disrespect is unbelievable.

35. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 9:42 am

Is it Happy Easter or Merry Easter…I don’t want to offend anyone.

36. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 9:47 am

Alright alright…in all seriousness. Why is ‘J’ wearing an old fasioned dive helmet? He looks kind of like Cuba Gooding Jr.

“Yes Divemaster!”

37. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 9:52 am

Disc: I completely agree with you.

38. Miss Destiny - March 21st, 2008 at 10:07 am

Very fascinating! I wasn’t brought up with any sort of religion, though I’m interested in them all. I love the religion lists I always learn a whole lot. I don’t really know if I believe in the whole “Jesus is the son of God” thing, but from what I’ve read of Jesus, I believe he was at least a real person, and a pretty swell guy at that. Whether we choose to worship him or not, we could all stand to learn something from his teachings.
Also, I’ve never met a Christian of any denomination who worships a cross or any other religious symbol. I thought the cross was worn/displayed in remembrance of Jesus. To honor him and stuff.

39. Jaz013 - March 21st, 2008 at 10:18 am

Those illustrations must be from a European church. In America, or at least in Mexico, the pictures tend to be a little (an sometimes really) bloody. Also, there are crucifix that show a very realistic Jesus nailed and mauled to the cross. I don’t know why the difference.

40. Blogball - March 21st, 2008 at 10:21 am

Jfrater ,thanks for posting this list. I am not Catholic but my wife and daughter are. However I do attend Catholic Church every Sunday because my wife sighed me up to be an usher. (Smart woman) Actually I do enjoy going and yes the Stations of the Cross are carved in wood along the walls. I was raised protestant so I never knew about the stations until I started attending Catholic Church.
Hope everyone has a nice Easter (including 666 whom ever that might be)

41. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 10:24 am

Mt. St. Mary 32 - 27 over Miami at the half! It has divine intervention written ALL over it! You must admit, it is an unfair advantage, I am going to pray my ass off for the Hurricanes during the half! Please don’t bust my bracket ‘J’…I beg you!

42. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 10:27 am

Blog…thank you, you as well.

You can call me ‘Stan’

43. BTrout - March 21st, 2008 at 10:32 am

jardojo, there’s something that you’re not fully understanding here, allow me to explain… idolatry is defined as anything that takes glory away from God.

44. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 10:38 am

jardojo: you are exactly right - it doesn’t matter what the object is- whether it be a cross, or a rabbit’s foot, if you are hoping to gain some benefit from ITS own power, it is idolatrous. That is why in the bible the people were sinning - they were worshipping the Golden Calf for its own merit.

Jaz013: they are traditional styled images from the Latin rites (West). But you are right - many Western images are very gruesome - in particular those of the Spanish - which will be why they are like that in nations that the Spanish settled.

45. Joni - March 21st, 2008 at 10:39 am

He sure did fall a lot.

46. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 10:41 am

666: Rumor around the watercooler is that God likes Kansas this year.

47. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 10:44 am

Expanding on post #33 just a bit:

Imagine the number of souls condemned to the inferno because their death-bed confession sat on some dude’s desk while the said saint snuck out to pound a few pints of guinness with St. Patrick and keep an eye on their brackets. It’s got to be in the millions, maybe more? If some Cristians would be so kind as to give me a rough estimate on the number? Also, is their an appeal process? Maybe to St. Peter?

St. Nick: “Dammit, Pat get your ass in here! You have 12 applications here for redemption that you never filed!…SHIT!”

St. Pat: “Hmmm, let me see them. Oh, he’s doomed, him too, oh well we have to do something about the overcrowding here”.

St. Nick: “I didn’t see nothin’”

St. Pat: “See what?”

48. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 10:49 am

Slick: Kansas?

It figures, right smack in the middle of the bible-belt. They led the nation in prayers sent, but who knows how many of those got forwarded. Just have to wait and see.

49. magnidude - March 21st, 2008 at 10:49 am

It’s a good list as (almost ) always, but I didn’t like the pictures. So maybe I’ll recommend something special: http://www.jasnagora.com/stacj.....j.php?ID=1 for those who won’t fear an encounter with the foreign culture :>. It’s by Polish painter named Jerzy Duda-Gracz and depicts 14 traditional stations and 4 additional ones (The Ressurection, Doubting Thomas, Galilea and The Ascension) . Let’s prove that the true art knows no bonds.

To cycle the paintings click the arrow at the top-right.

50. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 10:51 am

666: While I found your post #47 to be incredibly funny, I take issue with one point: I seriously *doubt* that heaven is overcrowded. Because all of us informed individuals that regularly watch South Park know that only Mormons get in to heaven.

51. Mikerodz - March 21st, 2008 at 10:53 am

I don’t know but don’t you think its too violent to the eyes of the children to see a man nailed in a cross?

52. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 10:56 am

Ah, my fault Slick.

Being ignorant on the subject of what type of ID you need to enter the pearly gates, I wonder what a fake Mormon ID goes for on the black market. Any devout Mormons here who can help?

53. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 10:57 am

magnidude: I really dislike those images - though I am sure the artist is a great one - I prefer traditional religious images.

Mikerodz: Do you think that is worse than much of what they see in films and on TV these days?

54. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 10:59 am

RE: post #41

My prayers were OBVIOUSLY answered! Miami is up 8 early in the second half! You have made me a believer ‘J’!

55. Jaz013 - March 21st, 2008 at 11:02 am

jfrater: I didn’t know the Spanish also used the more gruesome style. Personally, I like it. In those illustrations it appears like Jesus is in someway taking a walk. Even when the romans are nailing him to the cross, the expression on His face makes the whole scene look a little fake. It’s not that I like the blood. Is just that I think the romanticized style just take all the strength in the massage that those images are suppose to represent.

The most gruesome illustration I’ve seen is from a church in Mexico, called The Calvary, in the 11, 12 and 13 Stations, Jesus is almost completely painted red, and there are even more details (like the wound from the spear in His ribs).

56. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 11:06 am

666: Unfortunately, while a good idea, you’re not the first to have it, and Heaven’s reference database is simply years ahead of the curve. There is a special kind of hell that exists for holders of fake LDS ID’s, and I can tell you right now…it ain’t pretty.

57. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 11:09 am

RE: Post #45

Joni,

That is because P. Pilot stole the Nike AIR Jesus sandals right off of his feet and made him go bare foot, his traction must have gone directly to hell after that.

58. D Holmes - March 21st, 2008 at 11:13 am

@666
Kansas isn’t in the middle of the bible belt.
They’re actually on the edge (some don’t even consider it a part of the bible belt, surprisingly).

The bible belt normally refers to where the Southern Baptists Church is very prominent.

Map: http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pi.....aptist.gif

59. bucslim - March 21st, 2008 at 11:15 am

Kind of startling to me to be scrolling down and come across a hot chick’s ass in a thong for one of the adverts in the middle of the stations.

60. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 11:18 am

Hahaha…”Air” Jesus. Ahh…beautiful blasphemy. Happy Easter, everybody!

61. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 11:18 am

RE: post #56

Slick,

All is not lost yet, if heaven is not over-crowded then hell must be! That means there will be many more applications accepted for a level I demon to haunt Earth for eternity ( a better gig than manning some desk, filing prayers for eternity)

62. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 11:36 am

666: It’s possible. You ARE right about the overcrowding in hell, but that in itself brings a whole other set of problems. The first and foremost being that, because hell is becoming so overcrowded - the damned literally walking on the damned - there is a huge need for expansion to meet the growing population needs. Most likely you’d be regulated to hard physical labor for eternity, clearing land, digging pits and rerouting lava flows to correspond to the heaviest traffic areas. It’s tough, back-breaking work, not nearly as much fun as as even an entry-level position in the EBDC (Earthbound Demon Corp.) and unfortunately, the seniority system rules in hell. The oldest souls get the best slice of the pie…of course its a pie made from goat shit and the blood of sacrificial virgins - quite a nasty bit, if I do say so myself - but if you got to eat it, it’s at least benificent to get the best-looking slice. How’s Miami looking?

63. Mikerodz - March 21st, 2008 at 11:37 am

Mine is an innocent question.

64. jardojo - March 21st, 2008 at 11:38 am

Jrafter-

So if its an act or thought of trying to get material gain, etc., out of an object that makes it an idol, how is an idol created? Referring back to my quote above: The Isrealites were not to make an idol.

65. Mikerodz - March 21st, 2008 at 11:38 am

English in not my tongue.

66. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 11:43 am

Mikerodz: Yes, it is. I personally would not like my (future) children to watch a man being physically nailed to anything. I’d imagine it would be traumatizing. If, however, you are referring to the images of Jesus being nailed to the cross - and I imagine you are, since in this day and age people don’t often get nailed to large pieces of wood - there is a religious context behind it and, should I choose to raise my kids Christian, I would want them to be familiar with it. It is the graphic imagery that inspires the visceral feeling of awe and penitence for a man whose incredibly horrific earthly demise was the source of inspiration and salvation of billions of souls the world over.

67. copperdragon - March 21st, 2008 at 11:43 am

Catholics using a cross to remember Jesus is like rappers using a gun to remember Tupac. why memorialize the weapon of death?

68. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 11:45 am

Jfrater: How come I had 254 comments yesterday and now I’m down to 237? Does the site automatically take posts away from you for some reason? Are the old comments being deleted?

69. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 11:46 am

jardojo: physically? I guess you can make it any way you like - carve it out of wood - pour it out of metal…. If you mean mentally - it is entirely up to the person - some people idolize money - others idolize statues of Buddha, and some idolize a book (the Bible).

Oh - and it isn’t necessarily trying to get material gain - the actual definition is attributing to something other than God, power that is only God’s. It may not involve material goals - if you pray to a block of wood thinking the block of wood can answer your prayers, you are committing idolatry.

70. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 11:46 am

RE: post #62

Slick,

It sure seems like I am in a bad way then. Not having the desire to commit atrocities here on Earth, but yet not wanting to be an answering service for the big ‘J’. I fear I am doomed.

I am sure ‘The Dark One’ makes exceptions for the most evil Earth-lings. Hitler must be a sort of “saint” in hell? It doesn’t follow that ‘TDO’ would punish his prized pupils and make them wait centuries to get an entry-level gig in the EBDC? Maybe they go right into mgt.?

71. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 11:47 am

copperdragon: Because in Jesus’ case, the weapon of his death is also the symbol of our salvation. The bible celebrates Jesus’s death and subsequent resurrection as the most important story in the Christian canon. Christians use the cross as a way of commemorating that, through his death we were given everlasting life.

72. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 11:53 am

666: That is an interesting dichotomy that I’ve often considered. If hell is considered eternal punishment for our sins, then Satan is basically the other end of God’s little measuring stick, essentially doing his dirty work by punishing the souls that didn’t worship God. However, I thought Satan hated God and wanted to bring down heaven and establish himself as the omnipotent ruler…so why would he do what God tells him to do? Why would he punish people like Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot, when he could be using them to streamline his battle strategy? Why punish the masses when he could use them to add depth to his ground forces? It just seems counterintuitive.

73. Randall - March 21st, 2008 at 11:55 am

copperdragon:

There’s a big difference between the sublime sacrifice of Jesus and the murder of a rap artist with gang connections.

The cross is a symbol of the multi-meaning of Jesus’ death on the cross. It isn’t simply the means by which he met that death.

74. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 11:55 am

slickwilly: it updates every day and includes only the last 30 days of comments.

75. Philmont237 - March 21st, 2008 at 11:57 am

Your introduction is wrong. Good Friday is the ONLY day of the year that Mass is not prayed. Also, the Stations of the Cross are prayed every Friday during Lent. In place of Mass, Catholic churches have the Veneration of the Cross and a short Eucharistic service.

76. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 12:01 pm

RE: post #72

Slick,

Maybe Satan draws a large pension from the Big ‘J’s coffers? St. Peter discreetly writes a check (bi-weekly ofcourse).

A man with advanced degrees in torture, death, racism and evil (like Hitler) should NOT be re-directing lava channels or roasting souls over an open pit.

77. jardojo - March 21st, 2008 at 12:02 pm

That doesnt really answer my question. According to several posts here, an idol isn’t so much an object but a mindset of the person in its presence. So how do you “make” an idol?

78. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Philmont: I am not incorrect - the stations are optional during the year - they are not even obligatory on Good Friday.

According to Wikipedia:

Unlike Roman Catholic services on other days, the Good Friday liturgy is not a Mass as it lacks the consecration, the central element to the Mass, and in fact, celebration of Mass on Good Friday is forbidden

And for Holy Saturday:

In Roman Catholic Churches, the sanctuary is stripped completely bare while the administration of the sacraments is severely limited. Holy Communion is given only as Viaticum. All Masses are strictly prohibited. No Mass at all appears in the liturgy for this day.

79. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Oh - as an addendum to my last comment - if your parish is having Mass on Saturday or Friday, you need to write to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments as your priest is breaching the law of the Church.

80. Angelina - March 21st, 2008 at 12:07 pm

These comments have me rolling on the floor. 666, SlickWilly, romeozombie, Spocker, you guys are fucking hilarious! Thanks for brightening up my Friday.

81. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 12:07 pm

jardojo: an idol is any object to which you attribute the power of God. Full stop. Virtually anything can be an idol.

82. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 12:07 pm

RE: post #73

Randall,

WHY is there a “big difference”? I believe the analogy to be very good.

83. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 12:21 pm

RE: post #67

Cop,

After thinking about it, the Christians have it all wrong! The cross was not the actual “instrument of death”. The spikes can’t even be said to be the “instrument”, because they would have been pounded in so tightly as to prevent massive blood loss. People who were ’strung up like sheep’ on a cross in those god-forsaken days dyed of DEHYDRATION! The sun was the “instrument”. Copernicus was a true Christian!

A better trick would have been for Jesus to ‘just not dye’, simply refuse. Just hang on the cross for infinity, mocking P. Pilot, not drinking or eating…just hang and mock.

Peter: “ahh, Jesus, I think you made your point, let me cut you down now”

Paul: “Yeah, Pilot dyed 40 years ago”

Mary: (weeping) “Please my son, come down”

Jesus: “NEVER!”

84. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 12:22 pm

666: Personally, I think you’re right. The devil has got to be getting some under-the-table kickbacks from heaven’s GNP. I mean, afterall…if the devil didn’t did what he do, who would there be to scare the living shit out of believers into worshipping God? Heaven’s entire economy is based on Satan’s appropriation of souls and labor structure. Not to mention the little caveat that if God is omnipotent, and his eternal enemy is Satan, why else would he not just wiggle his nose and make Senor Diablo and his ilk vanish into the ether? Cause otherwise everyone would get into heaven, and the quality of the real estate would go down. You gotta keep out the riff-raff somehow.

85. perun99 - March 21st, 2008 at 12:24 pm

Wow those pictures you used are exactly the same ones that were hanging up in our classroom when I was in Catholic School.

86. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 12:25 pm

666: Actually, death on the cross was most often by asphyxiation. The condemned’s legs would finally give out after hours of struggling to hold the body up against the pain of the nails, and their chest muscles would be unable to contract. Hence, they would die by choking to death. By the way, this conversation is treading the lines of good taste even by my standards, which are decidedly low. Lets keep the absurdist repartee going and forego mocking Christians outright. It’s much funnier for all involved.

87. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Indeed Slick,

So the cross should be replaced with the foot spikes? Do any of the 17,000 different sects have foot pegs as their preferred ‘gold-pieces’?

Just taking things to its logical conclusions

88. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 12:39 pm

666: No, the cross is and always has been the traditional symbol of Chrisitanity, rather like the Star of David for the Jews. The shape of the cross is what causes death by asphyxiation, whether nails or rope are used to attach the condemned to it. It wouldn’t have mattered if nails were used or not. I seem to recall somewhere in my Christian upbringing hearing that the thieves that died with Jesus were only tied to the cross and not nailed to it, though they died in much the same way. If we are going by the logic of which icon is the cause of Jesus’s death, it’s still the cross, no matter which way you look at it.

89. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Ok, I’m glad that’s cleared up. Jesus must have gotten the spikes because he was ‘high profile’. Spikes were not wasted on the common thief who stole a loaf of bread?

Just think how much cash we could have made minting all of those gold spikes though. Damn shame.

90. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 12:51 pm

RE: post #86

Lets take the condemned who has a very high tolerence for pain and is able to overcome the pain of the spikes (easier if you were just tied), would this individual dye of dehydration? or is asphyxiation inevitable?

91. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 12:53 pm

666: Oh I know. Snake-oil salesmen for the new millenium. We could have a killing. Maybe we should start our own scientology-like cult that worships golden spikes. We could pattern it on modern Christianity, only *we* would fool the weak into the thinking the path to salvation is fondling pieces of gold. We could charge them for it and make a mint. What do you think Jamie, being the outspoken proponent for scientology that you are?

92. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 12:57 pm

666: It depends on how long the person could hold themselves up. Death by dehydration occurs after about 96 hours without water. Do you think *you* could hold yourself up in such an awkward position for more than 96 hours, when every tiny movement you made simply increased the pain and stress? I’m not saying everyone who was crucified died of asphyxiation, just that it was most likely the most common way of death associated with the cross. Oh, and “dye” means to stain a fabric a particular color. I think you mean “die.”

93. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 12:58 pm

“We could have MADE a killing” was what I meant to say (#91). No pun intended.

94. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Indeed! Die! As in ‘caput’, ‘lights out’, ‘the long sleep’, ‘the eternal repose’.

But in the hot, blazing sun you could die in as little as 8 hours. Did Jesus leave a memoir or a journal about his ordeals on the cross? Maybe he had some witty banter with his fellow condemned? You know to pass the time and all.

95. jesse - March 21st, 2008 at 1:30 pm

ah man, i hope jesus is true.

96. Angelina - March 21st, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Slick: Freudian slip?

97. Cedestra - March 21st, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Another common misconception (for that upcoming list, Jamie): Why do Catholics pray to saints? My religious teacher in college gave us the nitty-gritty on this. He said that Catholics actually don’t pray to saints, they use saints as an assistant in prayer, ones who have certain specializations.

98. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 1:44 pm

666: It’s funny that you mention that. First, according to the bible he did exchange some words with the thieves, though I wouldn’t go so far as to call it witty banter. I believe one of the thieves mocked him and challenged him that, if he were the son of god, to come down from the cross and save himself. The other expressed his support of Jesus and Jesus told him something along the lines of “Today you shall walk with me in heaven.” Secondly, there are no records of Jesus’s crucifiction, so any and all accounts of the last day of Jesus’s life, as expressed by the passion story and including the 14 stations, are complete fabrications by the writers of the gospels, starting first with Mark, who took from Paul’s first writings in the new testament the idea that Jesus died on the cross (expressed only in a simple, unelaborated, pithy statment.) and growing in grandeur until John, where the passion story is most fully elaborated.

I’d believe it, about the dying in the sun as such. Without water and under a burning sun, the body can succumb to heat stroke rather quickly, and left untreated, the person can lapse into a coma and die shortly thereafter.

Angelina: Maybe. I prefer “Freudian lips” myself.

99. Drelo - March 21st, 2008 at 1:45 pm

I lived in the very small town of Schwarzenborn in Germany when I was in 11th grade. We had extensive woods with logging roads behind our house. On these trails and roads was the most beautiful set of The Stations that I have ever seen, just nailed to trees intermittently. Good list. I am not christian but can absolutely appreciate the story telling and iconography in catholic art items.

100. Csimmons - March 21st, 2008 at 1:48 pm

This is so going to make a lot of religious debates, just check back in, oh, 3 hours.

101. Csimmons - March 21st, 2008 at 1:49 pm

HOLY SHIT! I got the 100th comment(yes I know, spamming, but HOLY SHIT I did it.)

102. Angelina - March 21st, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Slick: Talk about blatant product placement. . .oh wait, wrong list.

103. Csimmons - March 21st, 2008 at 1:52 pm

Angelina: Drink cold refreshing Pep… Shit! Wrong list. (That’s product placement, by Sprite, lemon-lime taste.)

104. materkb - March 21st, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Begging your pardon - Catholics may not celebrate Mass these days on Good Friday, but they used to. I was a schoolgirl in the 1960’s, and we went to morning Mass every day of Lent, including Good Friday.

What was your source for the statement?

105. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 1:55 pm

RE: post #97

Cedestra,

Do these “specialist” saints have to pass a certain certification course? Or do they go to ’saint school’ after they get their basic ’saint card’. Do they have to intern for a period of time? Or are some saints just prodigy’s?

St. Peter: “I do believe this gentleman in India—Ghandi is going to make one hell of a saint, I do say!”

Jesus: “The bastard beat his wife! NEVER!”

St. Patrick: (pouring a guinness draught from under his desk) “He was a young man Petey, I filed his redemption papers 8 years ago for that, and they were approved, so case closed.”

Jesus: “Damn you and your guinness Paddy!”

106. DiscHuker - March 21st, 2008 at 1:55 pm

slick: why do you say that the stories are “complete fabrications by the writers of the gospels”?

107. Angelina - March 21st, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Csimmons: You’ll always be 101st in my heart!

108. Csimmons - March 21st, 2008 at 1:59 pm

666: I thought it took 9 years to approve those paper? Oh shit that someone else.

109. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Disc: Because there were no written records of Jesus’s crucifixion, and the first of the gospels was not penned until approximately 60 years after Jesus’s death. If an oral tradition existed prior to this time, why was it not expounded in Paul’s writings, particularly considering how important the story is to the Christian faith? It doesn’t make sense that these stories happened as written some 6 or 7 decades after the fact and not be included in the first writings by Paul, who obviously acknowledges that Jesus died on the cross, but chooses only to let it rest at that, if such other things, if they did indeed happen, would fully flesh out the resurrection story. No, my opinion and others far more qualified than I, is that the stories as written are parables in the normal bible tradition, metaphorical stories that aim to put into the words the power that early Christians perceived in the Jesus experience. Not saying that Jesus didn’t exist or that he didn’t die on the cross…all logical evidence says that he did. However, the logic does not point to the passion story being a literal account of history.

110. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 2:05 pm

materkb: Well - my sources were the current Church laws, but here is the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia which agrees with me - there is no Mass on Good Friday - this is an ancient custom which has not changed.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06643a.htm

The omission of the Mass proper marks in the mind of the Church the deep sorrow with which she keeps the anniversary of the Sacrifice of Calvary. Good Friday is a feast of grief. A black fast, black vestments, a denuded altar, the slow and solemn chanting of the sufferings of Christ, prayers for all those for whom He died.

111. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 2:06 pm

Cedestra: technically, Catholics DO pray to saints - but the prayers are then offered BY those saints to God in support of our own prayers

112. materkb - March 21st, 2008 at 2:07 pm

Oh, well. Another instance of the childhood tyranny of the nuns: because we were most certainly at Mass that morning.

113. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 2:07 pm

I made another “Freudian lips” in my post #98. I typed “crucifiction” instead of “crucifixion” and, while funny in retrospect, was an accident and not intended as an editorial. That is all. Thank you.

114. Csimmons - March 21st, 2008 at 2:09 pm

jfrater:When’s my C.I.L.F. list going up? I would ask you on the forums but I can’t fin them

115. Angelina - March 21st, 2008 at 2:10 pm

Slick: I like you. . . you’re crazy. . . but I like you.

116. Csimmons - March 21st, 2008 at 2:10 pm

comment above refers to a previous list.

117. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 2:12 pm

materkb: I believe what you might have attended was a liturgy and not Mass. Jfrater posted this a little earlier, but I’ll repeat it here for the sake of reference:

“Unlike Roman Catholic services on other days, the Good Friday liturgy is not a Mass as it lacks the consecration, the central element to the Mass, and in fact, celebration of Mass on Good Friday is forbidden” — Wikipedia

I know next to nothing about Catholic practices, but I just noticed this discrepency and thought I’d point it out.

118. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 2:15 pm

materk: you do realize that Catholic Church services are not the same as Mass don’t you? Mass is when there is a consecration of the bread and wine on the altar - that is forbidden (and has been for centuries) on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.

119. SlickWilly - March 21st, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Csimmons: If Jessica Rabbit isn’t #1, then you’re gonna have some real problems. Assuming I’m understanding the “C” in the proper context.

Angelina: I like you too. I don’t know if you’re crazy, but I’ve got plenty enough to share.

120. Angelina - March 21st, 2008 at 2:21 pm

I’ve been called worse.

121. Csimmons - March 21st, 2008 at 2:22 pm

slick: You have the “C” right, and I’ll tell you she’s in the top 5, but I won’t tell you where she is, although the choice was hard, as was I when I first saw her.

122. materkb - March 21st, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Thanks, folks, but I know - and knew then - the difference between a Mass and any other Catholic service. I sang the Masses, for one thing - in Latin, for the most part, until the vernacular version came in in the late 60’s. So, no, it was Mass: the whole liturgical service, complete with Offertory, Consecration and (big giveaway here!) Communion being dispensed.

I’m sure you are correct about your sources, jfrater - but they are only the official line, not necessarily what was being done at the local parish level. I was just curious about those sources - and thank you for sharing them. I was in no doubt about what was happening at my church.

123. MethodMan - March 21st, 2008 at 2:38 pm

As a Methodist, I find these sorts of articles and discussions fascinating.
666 et al: Funniest stuff I’ve heard in years!

124. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 2:43 pm

materk: as long as you realize that what happened at your church was a liturgical abuse that is fine. Additionally - before the sixties why were you singing (I presume you are a woman (your nickname being latin for mother)) when the Church forbade women from singing in the choir in Church?

125. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Why thank you Method man! Say hello to the ole dirty bastard for me!

126. materkb - March 21st, 2008 at 2:59 pm

Yes, I know what my nickname means, thank you.

If Mass on Good Friday was an abuse, then there is reason No. 6,000-odd why I am going to Hell. Certainly, at the time, no one bothered to notify the Diocese.

As to singing in the choir - again, here is that deadly difference between theory and practice. I sang in the choir from the age of 6 (which was 1959, BTW). I sang my own First Communion Mass in Latin, the following year. I sang in the choir every Sunday and many weekday services until I was 14. Nor was I alone - our choir was primarily female, we took Dioscese awards for our singing, and the local bishop and the Cardinal of Los Angeles heard and applauded us. More liturgical abuse, I guess.

You are taking an amazing amount of offense at this. Are you Catholic, or were you raised as such? Are you, perhaps, a monastic, as your own nickname suggests? Or are you just judgemental, and perhaps unaware that there can be quite a gap between official policy and parish-level activity?

127. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Materkb,

You are clearly doomed. Your only hope is to pray to a saint that “specializes” in your unique sort of sin, and hope that ‘Paddy’ doesn’t have him out getting sloshed on Guinness. Being 6 years old is NO excuse, you will burn anyway! I will see if I can get you a gig roasting people who stole library books, the pay sucks and the heat is unbearable, but it’s a living.

128. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 3:20 pm

materkb: don’t get me wrong - the abuse was not the people at the Mass - it was the priests for saying Mass when it is forbidden. I didn’t mean to come across as judgmental - and I am well aware of the gap between the official policy and parish level activity - the current Pope is trying to fix that problem - many parishes are ignoring the directions from the vatican and are, as a result, causing great destruction in the Church. No matter what any parish priest or even Bishop says - they are obliged to do what Rome says - there is a famous saying in the Church - Roma est locutus est. - that means “Rome has spoken” - when Rome speaks - all are OBLIGED to follow - if they don’t they are mortally sinning. It doesn’t matter how many Bishops or priests abuse their positions - even if they all did - they would still be wrong if it goes against the eternal teachings of the Church.

129. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 3:29 pm

Materkb,

Sacrafice a chicken, and then throw three bloodied chicken feathers over your left (it has to be the left) shouldar at the stroke of mid-night while chanting red rum, red rum, red rum. That should ‘cure’ you from your “mortal” sin.

Merry Easter everyone!

130. materkb - March 21st, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Hey, 666:
Oh, I am doomed, I’m sure. And in fact my estimate of only 6,000 reasons for me to burn in hell is probably low. However, the age of reason being officially 7 years ofl age, I believe I sneak in under the radar on the singing in church when I was 6 offense. As for roasting library thieves: that sounds great!

131. materkb - March 21st, 2008 at 3:36 pm

jfrater: let us agree not to take offense at one another. Nor blame the sheep for the behaviour of the shepherds; lots of parishioners simply follow their priests pastorial lead. If they researched everything they saw or heard, they would be Protestants.

Though I think the phrase is “Roma locutus est”. And it only pertains to matters of faith and morals. I remain unconvinced one can, for instance, add failure to recycle to the list of sins, mortal or venial.

132. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 3:40 pm

Its him! In station #3!

The man behind the fallen Jesus! Its George Carlin! Wow, he’s older than I thought! I’m sure this is going to hurt his chances for a small piece of cloud in heaven!

133. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 3:49 pm

materkb: no one has added to the list of deadly sins - it was a misinterpretation from the mainsteam media. The fact remains - you must obey the traditions of the Church or you are not Catholic. And frankly, if many parishoners researched what their pastors did - they would be more Catholic - because many pastors are simply doing what they want - THAT is protestantism - rejecting the truths that the Church has always held for their own personal opinions. And it is also important to realise that the Church has always taught that Catholics must follow the Pope in all things unless he breaches that which has always been believed - it is protestant to believe that you must only believe the infallible decrees of the Church.

134. kazorek - March 21st, 2008 at 3:52 pm

jfrater: why aren’t the abusive/disrespectful posts on this list being deleted. its ruining this comment board. im not at all religious, quite the contrary actually. i think its struggle to keep up with society is damaging our culture. but those posts are not productive and they have no right to patronize. that kind of sense of entitlement is exactly what i think is wrong with religion, yet none of the religious people are bullying like they are. funny comments are great but if those posts were on a non-religious or an anti-religious list they wouldn’t even be funny because their only purpose is to patronize, everything they’ve said could be said in a respectful way. if they want to bully they can go to a different site. i hate to see this happen to the listverse.

135. materkb - March 21st, 2008 at 3:56 pm

jfrater: not deadly sins, just sins, period. There are more sins than the classic deadly 7; although it could be argued that all sins could be viewed as facets of these 7. In which case, does failure to recycle come under the aegis of sloth or greed? Interesting question.

I must protest again, though; I was taught that while the Pope was God’s steward, he was only to be obeyed without question in matters of faith and morals. You seem to be calling for 1) individual judgement and responsibility (which I applaud) and 2) unquestioning obediance - simultaneously. Can’t have it both ways.

136. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 3:56 pm

What happened to the advert between station 6 and 7? The one with Jesus propositioning a G-string clad ’streetwalker’? It has been removed, unfortunatly.

137. 666 - March 21st, 2008 at 4:00 pm

Kazorek,

Many people have enjoyed the satire in some posts and have said as much, if you don’t like them…just skip forward or read another list.

To each his own.

And Happy New Year!

138. spence425 - March 21st, 2008 at 4:02 pm

jardojo-
with regards to the guidance of not creating an idol…i think that refers specifically to created any object intended to be used as an idol. as jfrater says, anything can be an idol.

making anything with the expressed purpose of being an idol would violate that guidance.

however, holding anything up as an idol (whether you actually built it or not) can also be interpreted as “creating” and idol.

JFrater….great list, and great discussion…i’m glad you know your stuff. it’s good that you’ve been able to answer questions and explain some of the misconceptions.

139. jfrater - March 21st, 2008 at 4:03 pm

materkb: first point: not recycling is not a sin - it never has been and never will be. thus it is not relevant here.

Second point: If the pope speaks in accord with Tradition - regardless of whether it is with the protection of infallibility, Catholics must obey him - because disobeying is denying sacred Tradition which is is ALSO infallible. There is no individual judgement involved. Tradition is set in concrete and we all have access to those teachings.

140. MethodMan - March 21st, 2008 at 4:06 pm

Ah, being a Methodist seems so much less of a hassle. Not even the old conservative farts bat an eye when some pierced up goth walks in to service. Just to ME (no one is qualified to judge anyways), but a lot of Catholicism seems to mostly ritualistic to the point of looking like a play on stage. Like I said, I haven’t gone to a Catholic church for 15 years, so I can’t judge (not like you should), but is it true that Sunday sermons last for like 3 hours?

141. zionred - March 21st, 2008 at 4:17 pm

best list, so far.

142. spence425 - March 21st, 2008 at 4:24 pm

MethodMan-
to your last question, no, sunday sermons are not 3 hours long generally. in my experience, and hour is more accurate for the entire service.

143. jardojo - March 21st, 2008 at 4:30 pm

I don’t agree with the use of the cross. Since it was brought out not only in the christian greek scriptures to not use “idols”, it was also a law to the jews to not make idols, which by everyone elses definition doesn’t really make sense because its not an idol until its venerated. Which still raises the question, how do you “make an idol”.

What does make sense to me is that you wouldn’t make an object that would obviously have some form of religous relevance and then use it in your worship, have it in your place of worship, wear it around your neck, etc.

And even if its true that its not intended to deliberately break a law by using idols in worship, why have one in the church where others may make the mistake of praying to it, venerating it, etc. You may not venerate it, but someone else might.

The law to not make idols had to be put in place for a reason. God must have known that some people would succumb to the temptation of using them. Why have it around if thats the case? You say your not venerating it, what about the 13 year old sitting down the row from you? What about the person thats visiting your church for the first time? Why even have it around if its so important to not use objects in worship?

I’d rather be safe and not use them, so thats my decision.

144. spence425 - March 21st, 2008 at 4:34 pm

the cross, in it’s intended use is not an idol.

i’m sure that some people mistakenly treat the cross as an idol. but it’s intended purpose is not to be prayed to.

by definition, that means the cross is not an idol in the form that it is used in the church.

145. Diogenes - March 21st, 2008 at 4:39 pm

just some stuff:
how have these been incorporated into the believer’s life? Does each station have symbolic meaning or “hidden knowledge”? Or are these to be taken, based off what some have said, as truth. Jesus fell not once but thrice- is this for the father, the son and the holy ghost?
Meeting one’s mother along the route to one’s execution. A wrongfull closure?

the day after the world trade center buildings were hit by planes, Tee shirts were allready being sold on the streets showing a big eagle head floating next to the smoking towers, with a tear in its eye (God Bless The USA) . Momento mori?
Union square, among other places became a mass display of a shared wail, a tangable dispair.
The Time Machine question is, Whould you go back to witness Jesus first hand? His crucifixion?

My thought is that beliefs and soul connections to truth, dont want the real thing, but the amalgamated complexities that have stemmed from the source…which becomes its own real thing.
and speaking of things
i’m not all that good at this comment thing.

146. spence425 - March 21st, 2008 at 4:42 pm

jardojo-
i see your point, but the same could be said of the alter, or a pew, or anything else.

the law or rule is a form of education in itself, reminding those who believe, that prayers should be addressed to god, and not to any symbol or object.

the 13 year old sitting down the row from you, if a catholic, should be educated in the catholic faith, meaning that they would understand not to pray to the cross itself.

the first time visitor to the church, if a catholic, should also know not to pray to the cross itself. if they are not a catholic, but intend to become one, they should educate themselves in the catholic faith, at which point they would understand that they should not pray to the cross itself.

147. Diogenes - March 21st, 2008 at 4:44 pm

or are we to leave the last moments of Jesus’s life alone. That It has nothing to do with us.

148. Diogenes - March 21st, 2008 at 4:52 pm

isn’t the cross one of the oldest symbols of the cosmos?
its like a machine?

149. Satori - March 21st, 2008 at 5:03 pm

JFRATER:”jardojo: physically? I guess you can make it any way you like - carve it out of wood - pour it out of metal…. If you mean mentally - it is entirely up to the person - some people idolize money - others idolize statues of Buddha, and some idolize a book (the Bible).”

J-I know that you were giving an example, but please don’t make assumptions about other religions such as Buddhism-the likeness of the Buddha (which btw is NOT the little fat man, he is the “lucky buddha”, just a good luck charm–why Buddha is tacked on there, I don’t know) ANYWAY–the likeness of Buddha in statues, etc. are respected not worshipped. Like memorials–much like memorials fro war heros etc.–It’s actually not at all Buddhist to “worship” ANYONE…including the first earthly Buddha, Sidhartha Gautama. So no, Buddhist don’t worship Buddha statues.

150. rhharley - March 21st, 2008 at 7:06 pm

All this talk about some schizophrenic Middle Eastern ex-carpenter zombie from two thousand years ago makes me want chocolate.

151. 80toy - March 21st, 2008 at 7:37 pm

The church does have mass on good friday. i went today. the stations are done today as well, and you can go to those instead of mass as it is a holy day of obligation.

152. Philmont237 - March 21st, 2008 at 7:51 pm

You are right, Stations of the cross is competely optional. However, Mass is said on Holy Saturday. It is called the Easter Vigil. It is also the longest Mass of the year because that’s when we bring in all new converts. Don’t believe everything on Wikipedia.

153. Lucy - March 21st, 2008 at 9:21 pm

who cares?

154. byrneman - March 21st, 2008 at 9:35 pm

dont worry, he’ll be back…jesus always comes back

155. alexlwe - March 21st, 2008 at 9:45 pm

666: why do you insist on not call Jesus by name?

156. goof_ball - March 21st, 2008 at 10:28 pm

Um… cool?

157. KrazyK - March 22nd, 2008 at 2:44 am

I visit this site very much and read the list and comments all of the time and always learn something new from everyone who contribute. Now, I finally decide to contribute a little something of my own

I think jfrater is right about no mass on Friday/Saturday. Here in Michigan the catholic churches i go to anyway don’t have mass on Good Friday instead people walk in say a little prayer and then leave. (all the statues pictures are covered in a black cloth). But all of the other Fridays during lent they have mass and also during that mass they go to every station of the cross and say a prayer. I’m speaking for the catholic churches i have been to not for all but they should be the same i assume?

158. Drogo - March 22nd, 2008 at 2:49 am

Think of a Crucifix this way: If you see a Catholic that is holding the Crucifix from their necklace in their hand, they are using it as a cellphone to God.

159. jfrater - March 22nd, 2008 at 3:06 am

Philmont237: the Easter vigil is the Mass of Easter Sunday - not Holy Saturday. The fact that it occurs late at night on Saturday does not mean it is a Holy Saturday Mass. If you attend it, you do not need to go to Mass on Sunday during the day as your obligation has been fulfilled. And believe me - I was only using Wikipedia as a reference for people here to see it written down - I already knew it to be a fact

160. jfrater - March 22nd, 2008 at 3:18 am

jardojo: Firstly, why would anyone walk in to a church, see a crucifix or cross, and suddenly decide to worship it? They would have to be told to do surely - and they are NOT told it in the Greek or Roman Catholic Churches.

As for your constant returning to the scriptural admonition against idols - that must be understood in the context of the bible as a whole surely because I am certain you don’t think the Bible contradicts itself. What then, are we to make of this:

“In the most holy place he made two carved cherubim and overlaid them with gold” (2 Chron. 3, 10)

“In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high” (1 Kgs. 6, 23)

I think these comments clearly indicate that the Jews (and then later the Catholics) understood the difference between an idol as condemned, and an object to enhance worship (such as the carved angels mentioned above).

161. Drogo - March 22nd, 2008 at 3:27 am

I haven’t been to church in many years. I remember we only had 12 Stations of the Cross on Good Friday. I don’t remember anything being covered up in the church on Good Friday.

162. jfrater - March 22nd, 2008 at 3:33 am

Drogo: everything is covered from about 2 weeks before Good Friday right up to the Easter Sunday Mass (said late on Saturday night) when everything is unveiled in a big ceremony.

163. jfrater - March 22nd, 2008 at 4:38 am

materkb: I forgot to mention, I am not a monk - my nickname is taken from my first name “Jamie” and my surname: “Frater” - it is a Scottish surname with some origin many years ago in Latin obviously If you click the “About” link at the top of the page you will see that

164. Drogo - March 22nd, 2008 at 5:47 am

There must be small differences of customs due to regions. Materkb says her church did Mass on Good Friday. My church didn’t cover statues and images. I have a vague memory of going to a Mass, in a different town, where they did something that wasn’t familiar to me.

165. Drogo - March 22nd, 2008 at 5:56 am

I just talked to my mom. The church of her hometown, where I was baptized, covers stuff with purple cloth, but not the church where I went to grade school. They are 4 miles from each other.

166. jardojo - March 22nd, 2008 at 5:57 am

jrafter-

Yes, that was in the tabernacle. I know that the ark of the covenant had cherubs on them, I’m guessing that is what that scripture is citing. The tabernacle and then later the temple built by Solomon was very elaborately decorated. The thing is that the tabernacle was a physical representation of what was to come, namely the kingdom of God. When Jesus came to earth and died, was ressurected, there was no longer a need for that representation (of course, there are people that would debate that).

167. DiscHuker - March 22nd, 2008 at 6:00 am

jayfray: i posed a question earlier that didn’t get answered. i don’t remember stations #6 and 8 from being in a catholic church as a child. i don’t find them in scripture. do you know where st. francis got them from?

168. 666 - March 22nd, 2008 at 6:37 am

RE: post #155

Axelrod,

No reason. Maybe to add some comic relief to the very serious, dry, and beat-the-hell-out-of-the-horse-issue of:

1) wether praying to two intersected pieces of wood or some metal is considered “idolotry”! or 2) wether if one of the sectarian differences in one of the local cults is breaking canon law—thus sinning mortally and condemned to a fire pit located in downtown Detroit.

One must admit, my story (post #47) of St. Patrick pounding pints of Guinness while keeping an eye on his March Madness brackets, while ignoring the ‘aplications’ from the condemned is no more absurd than covering inanimate statues with cloth because it was done that way a long time ago by some megalomaniac dictator pope!

Lob me another one Axl, please!

Absurd is what absurd does!

P.s. I read that Popey Benedict didn’t eat his spinanch and refused to carry some cross to some ceremony or other, thus breaking church law. Does this mean he is condemned? Or does Popey get to play Texas Holdem’ with wild cards while everyone else must play straight? Well blow me down!

169. jfrater - March 22nd, 2008 at 6:41 am

DiscHuker: they are from Tradition - they are things known about the Passion that are not written in the Bible. They are not meant to be excluded if you are using the proper original set of stations. There are other stations that have been used in modern times that exclude non-Biblical aspects (which I don’t like) but they are not used very often and I think they still have 14 stations (or even 16).

170. jfrater - March 22nd, 2008 at 6:42 am

Drogo: Mass is forbidden on Good Friday - full stop. If her parish did it they were in breach of Church law and the pastor of the parish needs to bring himself in line. Regional customs are approved occasionally but they don’t breach Church law

171. Csimmons - March 22nd, 2008 at 6:43 am

jfrater: Have you recieved my new CILF list? and if you have, will it go up.

172. 666 - March 22nd, 2008 at 6:57 am

Does anyone else notice the resemblence of the gentleman in plate #3. This gentleman is about to give jesus a well-deserved wallop on the cranium with what appears to be an ancient ‘billy-club’. Seeing that ‘J’ is all knowing, he must know it’s coming—which must make it sting all the more.

But, I digress. Back to the elder gentleman wielding the club, why is George Carlin so angry with jesus? Did jesus steal his wife and do unspeakable things to her in the name of the cult? Someone please shed some light on this mortal sinner!

173. Csimmons - March 22nd, 2008 at 7:09 am

666: No, Jesus had a threesome with his wife and sister, that’s why he was so pissed. Turns out being a cult leader has its perks.

174. jfrater - March 22nd, 2008 at 7:10 am

Csimoons: I have yes - thanks I am not sure when it will go up but it will.

175. Csimmons - March 22nd, 2008 at 7:13 am

jfrater: Thanks, but use the newest one, it has the dates right, Thanks though

176. Csimmons - March 22nd, 2008 at 7:13 am

oh, and who is “Csimoons” I don’t know him

177. 666 - March 22nd, 2008 at 7:14 am

Thank you C,

I knew that jesus must have done something to that fine gentleman to make him so irate.

178. Urban - March 22nd, 2008 at 7:22 am

What about PAX? That seems like an obvious “station of the cross”.

Wakka wakka.

179. jardojo - March 22nd, 2008 at 7:39 am

I have also seen quite a few on this board try to define what idolatry means. I don’t think its up to man to determine that; it was God that made the law, its up to him. Take murder for example; some men feel that abortion is murder, others don’t. Some men feel that war constitutes murder, others don’t. I don’t care what a man’s definition of idolatry is, its up to God to decide that. Again, why risk adverse judgment?

If someone tells me that they’re not using objects of worship in that way then in their mind they’re right, at least it doesn’t hurt their conscience. But I do know that the common denominator of what constitutes an idol is an object or symbol that is used in worship.

The only thing that would change my mind on the matter would be if I read a passage in the bible where the first-century christians used the cross in their worship, wore it around their neck, used it in any way, etc. I would be very interested in reading that passage if anyone could direct me there.

180. anon - March 22nd, 2008 at 8:25 am

“and (big giveaway here!) Communion being dispensed”

You’re wrong, materkb, that’s not a “big giveaway” at all. Communion may be, and is in this case, distributed outside of the Mass.

On Maundy Thursday the sanctuary is stripped and all consecrated Hosts are removed to a place outside of the church. These consecrated Hosts are distributed during the services on Good Friday and Holy Saturday. Mass is NOT celebrated on these days.

181. jfrater - March 22nd, 2008 at 8:40 am

jardojo: did you see my last comment? I quotes two texts from the Bible in which the Jews used statues of Cherubim in the temple. And also, you are asking for quotes from the Bible exclusively to convince you that it is not wrong - not everything we know about Christianity is in the Bible - in fact, the Bible was not even codified until 325 (codified by the same Church that says Crosses are okay).

182. 666 - March 22nd, 2008 at 9:35 am

Good Friday Morning: 10:00am mass or sermon or whatever it is that is mortal.

Pastor: “praise him!”

sheep: “amen”

St. Peter: (from up above, or is it to the left?) “Those fuckers are at it again! Praising the lord on good friday! We told that asshole Benedict to clamp down on those son’s ah bitches!”

St. Paul: “remarkable! the audacity of those infadels, to praise the lord on good friday! Jesus, how should we destroy them? Fire? Flood? Plague? Locusts? Earthquake?”

Jesus: (overhearing the discussion while in his quarters with St. Joan) “Ahhh fuck sweety, I gotta go see what all this bullshit is about, I’ll be right back…and don’t move!”

Jesus: “What in the name of me is the problem?”

St. Peter: “Benedict is not doing his job! He has not punished these ignorant fools who keep praising your excellency during good friday! Can you believe it? And they pray to idols also, my lord.”

Jesus: “I damn it! hit the congregation with lightning and be done with it…stat!, no one survives…NO ONE! and get that jerkoff Benedict on teleconference.”

St. Paul: “Very good my lord”

183. Csimmons - March 22nd, 2008 at 6:30 pm

666: I wonder what jesus did after…

Jesus: “Benedict, where the hell have you been? People are at mass on Good Friday you lazy son of a bitch!”

Benedict: “Calm down, here have some weed.”

Jesus: “What!?! You’re high on the day that I died!?! For the love of my dad, go do your damn job and get away from my mother!”

benedict: “Oh shit! that’s your mom!?! Damn you got a hot mom!”

Jesus: Oh you piece of shit!”

(Fight ensues, St. Joan walks in after Jesus wins)

Joan: “Jesus, come back to bed.”

184. Rylan - March 23rd, 2008 at 7:48 am

Happy Easter you crazy Christians

185. SlickWilly - March 23rd, 2008 at 9:47 am

Jardojo:

1. If you believe it is up to God how idolatry, and the Pope is the liaison between God and man - that whatever decree the Pope makes is considered Church law - would not the Pope using the symbol of the cross mean that God does not consider the cross an idol? I mean, I hate to have to stoop to this but this matter is so bloody simple and you seem so reluctant to accept that you’re wrong about the issue that I’m beginning to wonder how old you are. I honestly think that you know you’re wrong but don’t want to admit that you said a very silly thing.

2. “But I do know that the common denominator of what constitutes an idol is an object or symbol that is used in worship. ”

Wrong. An idol is NOT a symbol that is *used* in worship, and idol is a symbol that *is* worshipped. I’m going to type this as clearly as I can: the cross is *not* an idol. There are no Christians anywhere in the world that would say that they worship the cross. None. The cross is *not* worshipped, therefore it is *not* an idol. Would you say that Christians worship the Christian fish? Or that the Jews worship the Star of David? No you wouldn’t, because anybody that takes a minute to actually think critically about the matter can identify the fact that an idol is an object of false worship, not an object recognized as a symbol of the faith. *Jesus* is worshipped, the cross is used to remind the faithful of his sacrifice. *Through* the cross we direct our worship at Jesus, not the cross itself.

186. SlickWilly - March 23rd, 2008 at 9:48 am

Edit: “how idolatry is defined…”

187. 666 - March 23rd, 2008 at 9:41 pm

HAHA!!

188. 666 - March 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 pm

Ok people!

Lets take a reality break here.

People, you are giving legitimacy to a ridiculous idea.

Lighten up and mock the shit out of it!

Not to mock individual believers.

They are already too far gone, ‘god’ bless them!

Mock it, because it is so FUCKIN’ funny!

Go back and read your tit-for-tat about idols and church law.

It’s hilarious! You’re hilarious! Get a grip!

Liberate yourself! Write an absurd dialogue, you will laugh!

And so will we!

CSimmons: Fuckin’ great! Thanks for playin’ my game!

I appreaciate it, I laughed so hard this morning!

I’m typin’ in my Northeast accent. (Nahwtheast)

I hope it dosen’t “offend” anyone!

I don’t mock to anger people, or to disrespect.

But,

The whole ‘god’ thing in the 21st century…

IS FUCKIN’ HILARIOUS!

I love you believin’ fools!

Idols?

Church rules and laws?

Mortal sins?

HAHA!!

189. astraya - March 24th, 2008 at 3:29 am

1) My two hesitations about the stations of the cross is that some of them are unbiblical eg Jesus